University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

Albert Harris Memoir

H240. Harris, Albert (1895-1977) Interview and memoir 6 tapes, 508 mins., 2 vols., 150 pp.

BLACK COMMUNITY PROJECT Harris, lifelong resident and businessman of Springfield, recalls his experiences as a member of the African American community: social conditions, discrimination, segregation, and businesses. He recalls his own business ventures, including owning a restaurant, grocery store, garbage hauling, real estate, and the rental business. He discusses integrating the job market, 1937 Harris subdivision, Depression, and the 1908 race riot. He also discusses coal mining, funerals and wakes, and the Emancipation Day Celebration.

Interview by Reverend Negil L. McPherson, 1974 OPEN See collateral file

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1974 University of Illinois Board of Trustees PREFACE

This manuscript is the product of a tape-recorded interview conducted by Reverend N. L. McPherson for the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University on March 28, 1974. Sheila Sears and Kay MacLean edited and Albert Harris reviewed the transcript.

Mr. Harris was born in Springfield, Illinois, June 4, 1895 and died October 20, 1977. He was an active member of the black community who helped break the color barrier in the local theatre and who helped young black persons integrate the job market. He recalled being the only black baseball player on the Springfield High School team. He was so good at baseball he was told it was only his color that kept him out of the major leagues. For the better part of his life he was self-employed: building, repairing, renting, and selling property successfully.

Readers of this oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of this memoir, nor for the views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708.

.. Table of Contents

Birth and Family's Neighborhood 1

Going Into Business: Garbage, Land, and Hogs 2

The Harris Subdivision and Water Problems 7

Discrimination 13

Schoolday Experiences 21

Army Life 22

Springfield Prejudice 23

The Great Depression 29

The Restaurant Business 31

The Grocery Store 34

Garbage Hauling 37

Property and Rental Business 41

Complaints on the Dump and Hogs 48

Achievement Business Award 49

Loans and More Real Estate 52

The Depression 53

The 1908 Race Riot 56

The Ku Klux Klan 63

Coal Mining 65

Integrating the Job Market 70

The Shoat Business and Investment Club 89

The Frontiersmen 92

Other Business Deals 97

Al Harris' Building 110

Prejudice and Jobs 117

Black Soldiers in the South 120

Blacks and Streetcars in Springfield 122

Other Successful Black Businesses: Popeye's Barbeque, Jake Long, Roosevelt Walker Albert Harris, March 28, 1974, Springfield, Illinois.

Reverend N. L. McPherson, Interviewer.

Q. Mr. Harris, I understand nhat Springfield is your home.

A. Yes, I was born here.

Q. Where were you born? I mean what location in Springfield?

A. On the east side.

Q. What's the address?

A. On the 1700 block of East Mason.

Q. What was that neighborhood like?

A. I was too young to know. I wasn't a year old until I moved out here on North Lincoln Avenue.

Q. Oh, is that right? How long did you live on North Lincoln?

A. Clear up until 1940, I think it was. Oh, it was clear up until about 1937.

Q. Now, what was the neighborhood like?

A. You mean here?

Q. No, on Lincoln Avenue.

A. On Lincoln it was just a mixed neighborhood. And the house we lived [in] on Lincoln Avenue, it belonged to a coal mine company and the people around there, mostly all of them were coal miners. Then I went to school there and finished up my schooling. And then before I finished my schooling, I went to a mixed school. I was really the ringleader at the school. I was ringleader at the school because I could pitch a baseball, and I was one of the best pitchers in the city of Springfield at that time in school. And [I was] the only black pitcher that played on the Springfield High School team.

Q. Oh, you went to Springfield High?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you all win any championships or anything like that? Albert Harris 2

A. No, no. The only thing at that time that kept me out of the big leagues was my color.

Q. Is that right?

A. There wasn't no colored boys being considered in the white leagues.

Q. So then you just played for your school team?

A. That's right. That was all. And then after I got out of school, I went to the Army. I did my hitch in the Army and came back and wanted to go in business for myself, but I didn't have any money. So I got a job at the Springfield Laundry, and I worked for the Springfield Laundry for thirteen years. I drove as the first and only black driver at that time in the city of Springfield.

Then I always had an idea I wanted to own something. I knew I couldn't own a laundry because it'd taken a lot of money to buy the equipment. But I decided that I was going to try and do something. And in the year of 1932 they had a slogan that said, "1932 depends on you." And I made up my own slogan. I said, "1933 depends on me." I went to my boss and told her in 1932, I said, "In 1933 I'm going to stop working for you and go into business for myself. Mrs. Rose Harbour was my boss, and she says, "Well, Albert," said, "you mean you're going to quit in 1933?" I said, "Yes, and I'm going to haul your coal and start picking up garbage." She says, "All right," says, "but suppose you don't make it?" I said, "I'll make it." She said, "Well, if you don't you come back." I said I would.

And so I went into the garbage business. And then I had got me some hogs and then I wanted to raise more hogs, but where I lived on Lincoln Avenue was too small. So I had to find someplace. The wife and I and Eddie Mitchell--my wife's nephew--and a couple of foster children, every Sunday we'd take a ride in the country to find some ground. And I run up and I found this ground, twenty-one acres. It was owned by a lady by the name of Mrs. Lyman. The wife said, "Well, Honey," says, "you'll never own that ground." I said, "No, because we haven't got that kind of money." And she says, "Well, we'll just have to keep looking." And lo and behold, I saw this ad again in the paper, the ad in the paper of this ground. And I knew where the ground was; it was a blind ad and I didn't have to answer it because I knew where it was.

So I went direct to Mrs. Lyman's brother who was an agent for the Chevrolet. He said that his sister owned the ground and they lived out in Bradfordton, Illinois. I asked him was it sold. He said, "I think it is, but I'm not sure. But you can go and find out." I wrote them a letter, and the man said to me, he says in his letter, "Mr. Harris, I don't know what we'll take for it, but we'll be in to see you." I said all right. So they came on in and they showed me a plat of the grounds, 21 acres instead of twenty acres. And he says, Albert Harris 3

"Mr. Harris, what you want to .... " I said, "What does she want for it?" I was talking to her agent. He says, "I'll go back and find out." He said, "I'J.l see you tomorrow." I said, "All right."

They came back the next day. And the wife, when I called her, she said, "Those men are here again today." So I came on out home. They said, "Mr. Harris, she wants $2000 for it." And understanding, Reverend, I didn't have any money. So I said--I'm sorry, but I get tickled and amused at this because this is what happened! So I said, "I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll give you fifteen thousand dollars cash." And they says, "Well, all right then, Mr. Harris. I think that Mrs. Lyman will take that. I'll call you. I'll be back tomorrow." I says, "All right."

They came back tomorrow; when I called the house my wife said, "Those men are here again." I came on out. They said, "Mr. Harris, Mrs. Lyman will take fifteen thousand dollars cash." I said, "Cash is thirty days, isn't it?" He says, "Yes." I said, "All right then. In thirty days I'll have your money." He said, "Fine." And he said, "Have you got a little retainer?" In the meantime, I had a check for a hundred dollars that I had borrowed on my truck because I seen twenty acres of ground, north, and I was going to try to get that. I said, "Yes. I got a check here for two hundred dollars." He says, "Oh, we haven't got any change. We'll just write up a contract as is, and you'll take care of it." I said, "In thirty days." He said, "Yes, sir." That was the second day of February of 1937 he was due back.

And as they were leaving the door, my wife turned around and said, "Honey," says, "where you going to get fifteen thousand dollars?" I says, "I don't know." (laughter) ''I don't know." And she says, "Well, I don't know either." And so I started trying to borrow the money and I went to several places. Even Attorney Davis tried to help me. I had a Jew friend that I was feeding his hogs along with mine, and I went to him. I told him what I wanted to do. Well, he didn't want to do it. Then I went to Roustimeier; tried to borrow it from him. I couldn't get it.

So I thought about a Mr. Mayhew who was a real estate man, and I told him, I said, '~r. Mayhew, I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can borrow me a thousand dollars." He says, "A hundred dollars if I can borrow ... ?" I said, "Yes"--it was twelve hundred dollars. He says, ''Well, I think I can." "Just a minute." So he stepped to the phone and he called up Mrs. Herndon of the Herndon Company here. He called Mrs. Herndon, and he turned around and he says, "Mr. Harris, Mrs. Herndon will let you have the money, but you have to wait until it comes in." I said, "How long would that be?" He says, "Oh, about a week." I said, "Well, all right then. I feel pretty good about it."

So in the meantime, about three weeks later, time was running out on Albert Harris 4 me for the 2nd of February so I went to Mr. Mayhew and I said, "Mr. Mayhew, when is she going to let me have that money?" He says, "Oh, Albert, it won't be no more than a week or two anyway." I says, "Just so it's before the first of the month because I got to have that money." He says, "Just give us another week." I said, "All right."

In the meantime, the agent of Mrs. Lyman came in to see me, and he says, "Mr. Harris, how are you coming with your money?" I says, "Not too good." He says, "I know it." I said, "Why do you know it?" He said, "Because they're going to see that you don't get this ground." I said, "Who's they?" He says, "Well, your neighbors around here." I says, "Is that right?" He says, "Yes, and I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I hope you get it and there's nobody going to get this ground until I hear from you."

He says, "Now, a: fellow came out here the other day and offered Mrs. Lyman $2500 for it. Naturally she wanted to take it, and I told him he couldn't get it until I talked to you, until your option expired on it, your earnest money. And he just ignored me and went to see Mrs. Lyman. Well, when she heard that she could get $2500, naturally, she wanted to get it. She told me that she did, and I told her that as long as Mr. Harris had his money up here and his option hadn't expired, that he was a businessman and the ethics of a businessman wouldn't permit him to not let me have the ground. Well, she didn't like it anyway, but that's what happened. He says, "Now, I hope you get it."

Well, I went on back and I read the contract--not the contract, but I read the contents of this ground where she had borrowed $300, she owed $300, and had a $300 noteon it and it came due in August. And this was the end of January. I began to figure myself, and I said, "Now let me see. I've got $200. She owes $300. Why can't I assume this $300 because I know I can pay it off by August. And that'll make me have--three and two is five; she'll have to loan me a thousand dollars."

Q. You would owe her.

A. Yes, I would owe her a thousand dollars. So I taken it to my real estate man, Mr. Mayhew, and explained it to him. He said, "Why, sure you can do that. Let me see." And I told him again. He said, "Well, sure. That only makes you one thousand dollars." "That's right." He said, "Wait a minute." So he stepped to the telephone; he called Mrs. Herndon and said, "Say, Mr. Harris has got that note down to a thousand dollars. Could you let him have the money right now?" She evidently said yes, because he hung up and said, "Come on, we got the money." We got the thousand dollars.

And the second day of February, which was two days later, they came in. They would have been in the first day, but it snowed and so they came in the second day. So I counted her out a thousand dollars. Albert Harris 5

She said, "That's not my money." I said, "Yes, it is, too." She says, "I got $1500 coming." I said, "You had $300 mortgage on that, and I assumed that mortgage." And she turned to her lawyer and said, "Can he do that?" Her lawyer says, "Yes, he can do that." Then she congratulated me on the ground and said she hoped I would make a good success of it, a good go out of it, which I did. But after I got that ground ... (someone enters the room) So I thanked her.

But then, Reverend, is when my troubles began, because I tried to get water out here. One of the fellows who was a custodian of the camp [Camp Lincoln] said he'd see that I got tapped at the camp's main line if I would sell him an acre of ground. I told him, "All right, I'll think about it." When he said that he would do what he agreed to do, I said, "Well I'll go ahead and sell you an acre of ground, but I got to tap my water first."

Well, the neighbors, in the meantime, had heard about a garbage man was going to buy that ground and run hogs and things there, which was true. But I fooled them because what I did was to build some nice homes out here. And I still had my hogs, because the hogs are about a quarter of a mile from the subdivision, straight back north. Then after they saw that I wasn't going to be defeated ... I fought with the city hall twenty years to get water out here.

Q. Twenty years?

A. Yes, sir. I fought with those people twenty years to get water. All they would do--they didn't want me out here. They had ganged up against me and they thought they were going to stop me by not getting the water. Finally, I went to one man there at the city--it was Pop Hess, he's dead now--and Pop Hess said, "Well, I don't see why you can't tap this water." I said, "Pop, they won't let me tap down at the main." That was way down to MacArthur and North Grand--well, it was North Grand and West Grand then. And they wouldn't let me tap down there. So I didn't know what to do.

Finally Pop says, "Well, there's one thing that you can do. This ground coming straight up here belongs to the city; all these pretty lawns you see down there, that's in the city. But we'll use that road; that road out there, that belongs to the camp." At MacArthur, see, we didn't use MacArthur; we used the camp road instead of Mac• Arthur. And he says, "All you got to do is just bring your pipe right up this here." I says, "You mean through all those people's yards?" He says, "Yes. This is the street." And they were standing out there listening. So he says, "This is the street, and that's what you do," I says, "Well .... " I reluctantly didn't want to do it because it would just be disturbing. I guess I was too soft.

But anyway, a man who was a friend of mine and is dead and gone, Charlie Sellers says, "I'll tell you what we can do. Why not go Albert Harris 6 over to Osburn Avenue, which is three blocks from here, and hook on over there?" I says, "You mean go all through that, down the hill and everything?" He says, "Yes." I said, "Well, we'll try her." And we dug it.

There were places, Reverend, that we dug that was ten feet deep. And we didn't shore it up at all. I don't know why, the good Lord was just good to us, that that ground didn't cave in on some of them. But we put that whole [trench in] by hand. Then we dug the other sewers by hand. We put the street across over there. And everything that we done was by hand because I didn't have any money and I couldn't rent no machinery or anything like that. And Mr. Long, Henry Long, he tapped the main sewer so that I could get water on Osburn Avenue. Then after that, [when] they saw that I wasn't going to be stopped, I was the best fellow in the city of Springfield--"Oh, we got a good man out there."

Then after that I tried to borrow some money to build a little house down there. And I borrowed three thousand dollars. There's a little story there. The day that I went and got the money, Mr. (William] Hunt from the First Federal Savings and Loan says, "Now, Mr. Harris, we don't carry any delinquent accounts. The first of the month we expect our payment." I said, "Yes, sir." Well, (laughs) the first of the month, I missed. I went on down about the fourth or fifth, and he says, "I thought I ••.. " I said, "Well, it's here now. I got it now." He said, "Fine."

From that day on I took a liking to that guy because he tried hard and he did something that the average person wouldn't do. It got to the place where any time that I wanted any money, all that they had to do, the bank would call Mr. Hunt and they'd say, "Mr. Harris is in here. Al Harris is in here for a loan and he hasn't got any letter of commitment." He'd say, "Okay, just let him have it." And I said when Mr. Hunt died I lost one of my best friends, because he was the one that helped me get this subdivision started out here.

I went to people trying to get different monies, even to build a house, and they reluctantly about had me until finally they got to the place where they saw that I wasn't going to be stopped. I was going to do something, and that's what I did. When I got this ground out here, I began to build houses for people because I always wanted to do something for the public. And this was for people that didn't have a down payment. Some had some money [for] down payment and some didn't. I just went along with them, but if I had taken my just dues in regards to what I could [have] accomplished, I'd be a millionaire . not a millionaire, but I'd have had plenty of money. But I was thinking about the other guy and giving them all a chance. So that is really what happened out here.

As far as trying to get money for blacks in those days, it was hard. And the best that you could get at that time would be twelve or Albert Harris 7 fourteen thousand dollars, that would be the tops. They didn't care about loaning you any money, because when you walked into one of those lending institutions like the banks, the first thing, they'd want to know what kind of house you're going to build. And if you told them you wanted that, "Why, no, we can't loan you that. The house is better than I got." I got that so many times that I just didn't know what to do, but I still kept on trying.

Then after I got things going pretty good, then I began to branch out and try to get these condemned houses, buy houses for people that didn't have any down payment--just straight rent. Then I made a success, that's what I been doing in the last five years. I made a success of that. But now I think we better switch and get back to the city of Springfield.

Q. Yes, to this place up here. Now, this subdivision, did you build the houses yourself?

A. Yes, yes. There's only about four houses out here that wasn't built. What I mean, I built [them] myself. I was my contractor.

Q. You were the contractor.

A. Yes, yes. And I had men working for me, see.

Q. Then after they were built, you sold them to the people on contract for deed?

A. Yes. For a contract for a deed. Now, there was about four or five of them out here that built their own house, like [Jessie M.] Finley and Virgil [Daugherty] over there. They built their own houses, see.

Q. Now, you say it took you twenty years to get the water.

A. That's right.

Q. What did you do during this time? Did you have a well or something?

A. No, when I first started, you see, they kept on lying about their main over here in the camp. So that's when Charlie [Sellers] suggested that we go through there--tap the main down there and go through there-• and then a couple of them around here.

Q, Who owned that water at that time, the city?

A. The city. And every time I spoke to the city about tapping over at the camp, they'd say, "Oh, it's an old main, and you might . Well, we just won't let you tap because it's not safe." ''Well, all right then." And then when I goes over on Osburn Avenue--see, the city got that pipe over there, that's where it was where Pop Hess told me to go, over on Osburn. I hooked onto the water main there. Albert Harris 8

Then I had to bring my water line from there back this way, clear to Patton, and then go north. An inch and a quarter line was all it was. We had about ten houses out here, or eight. They decided then, in later years, that they wanted a bigger main out here.

Q. Now, that's the residents out here?

A. Yes, that's the residents out here. I don't want to implicate the way people did me, so I'll just stop there.

Q. Well now, if you have some confidential material, you give it to me because we have a way of . • .

A. Getting it out?

Q. of putting it so that ...

A. Yes. Well, what happened--! told my people that I had went to the front for them and got them homes out here and I did just what I said I'd do, that you'd have a nice modern home, everything. And I said, "All we got to do," I said, "we're going to have to get a bigger main. We'll all go in together." This is back in 1954. And they said, ''Well • . . " I didn't think anything about it until Eddie said to me one day, "Oh, Al, they're not going to help you put in that water." I says, "Well, why?" He says, "They'll let you put it in. You're supposed to put it in." I says, "No. When the city comes to put in a new main or a new sewer or something like that, they assess everybody in the block. It don't matter who bought it fifty years ago," I says, "and that's what happens here." He says, "Well, they're not going along with you."

And sure enough, he was right. Even my good friend, Finley, over there--sold him a whole acre of ground for five hundred dollars--and he says, "Al, we don't think we should go ahead and put that water in for you, help you put that water in." Poor George Hamner, he was the ringleader. And I says, "Well, I can't put it in alone. It's ten thousand dollars, and I can't do it." I said, "The city is going to have to just shut us off." And they did. The city shut us off, and then I had to find some way to get the water back on. So they took it to the court.

That George Hamner and his attorney, Bonjean down on the corner of Fifth and Monroe, I told them, I said, "I can't put in that water by myself." And this attorney said, "Well, you'll have to." I said, ''Well, I can't do it." I said, "Listen, Mr. Bonjean, I don't care; you can take this to court if you want to, I still can't put in the water. The reason I can't put it in is because I haven't got any money. I haven't got that kind of money. Now, you can get all the judgments you want, but you don't want judgments, you want water." They looked at me kind of funny, and he said, "Well .... " And I said, "Fine, we'll see." Albert Harris 9

So I comes on back home and I called up the city, and I said, "Well, I'm going to try to get these people that I got a contract with and borrow on their homes if I can, I said, because after all, I still own them." He says, "All right. Se what you can do." That's what the city's attorney said. So I went to them and told different ones what we could do. ''We're not going to pay no interest on no money." So they called me over to their house one night, George did. "Al?" I said, "Yes." "We're not going to put that water in, and we don't want you ,g~ing around here trying to borrow money for us. We don't need you to borrow money for us." Poor Elmer Hart, he's dead and gone, he said to me--this here diamond ring I got, he said, '~ou wear your big diamond rings around here and think you're somebody." I said, "No. I didn't come over here for this. I just come to see if we could work out some solution." ''Well, we're just not going to pay no interest." "Okay, okay. But I think you better consider it," I said, '~ecause if you don't, they're going to shut that water off again." "Oh, they won't shut it off." I said, "Okay."

So I went on back to town and told them what happened. He says, '\ilia in the dickens ever heard of borrowing money and don't want to pay no interest." I said, "Well, that's what they said." He says, ''Well, what you want us to do?" I said, "Shut it off." He says, ''Well, it'll shut you off, too." I says, "That's all right. Just shut it off." He says, "All right. I'll get a letter out tomorrow." I said, "Okay." And so he did.

In three days they had to have that money or they were going to shut the water off. So the third day come running around. That night Elmer called up, "Al?" I said, '~ es?" He said, "Don't you have them shut that water off. We'll take up that deal." George, he called up. They all got nervous, see, because we're going to cut the water off. Anyway, now we got the water on, but we had to have. a way now to still satisfy them about payments on it, see. I said, "I can't pay it. You can do what you want to do, but I know you're not going to have it shut off no more."

Because, Reverend, if you been in a place where you don't have no water, man, it's rough, see. But it didn't matter to me, because I was going to hook my hose right over there in the camp. (laughter) Because I talked to this fellow over there, see, and he says, "Al, you just hook over here and just bring your hose through on to your house."

So anyway, one fellow, Patterson--Gilbert Patterson over here--he was sick when this all started. And I said, "Gilbert,"--he was behind in his payments--"don't worry about being behind with your payments. I'm a Mason and you're a Mason, and we take care of one another. All I want you to do is get well." "Thank you, Al. Thank you, Al." And so that's the way that was. Well, there's another fellow by the name of Rich Carr ..• Gigi 1 s husband ••• Carr, Rich Albert Harris 10

Carr. I said, "Rich,"--right here, Reverend, he stood--"Rich, don't you go along with those fellows trying to borrow five hundred more dollars to stop me from putting on the water." He says, "Al, I know it because, you know, you and I .... " I says, ''Yes, we're good friends. I don't see why you want to go along with them." He says, "I talk to who I want to.'' I said, "You know they're mad now. If they catch you talking to me, they're just going to be suspicious of you. Now, the only one that they're not suspicious of is Jimmie Smallwood." Because you see, Reverend, Jimmie wasn't on the line. We were on the line, that's where I lived, and we were on Jimmie's line then, see, after he moved there. And we had to pay Jimmie for the water. And I said, "Now, that's the only one that ..•• " There was Toppie Gray, poor fellow, he's dead and gone, too.

Q. Who is that?

A. Toppie Gray, Theophilus Gray. He was very bitter, just like all the rest of them. And so in the evening when I came home from work, my truck pulled in, this constable is standing right out there. He says, "Hi, Al." I says, "Hi." He says, "I got something for you." I said, "What is it?" He showed me these papers. He says, "Now, all these people are suing you." Even my wife here. (laughter) Even my wife here was suing me.

Q. Is that right? (laughter)

Mrs. Harris. That's when we didn't know no better. (laughter)

A. And anyway, I looked and I seen Pat's [Gilbert Patterson's] name on it, my good friend in Masons, see. His name was listed. I seen Eddie, my wife's nephew, was on there. They were all on there except Jimmie. Well of course, as I say, Jimmie didn't have to be on there. And I says, "Well." Then after they were going to sue me, they paid their attorney five hundred dollars--that's what he charged. Of course, things didn't go like they thought they were going to, see. I said, "Fellows, listen. You can't hurt me because you just can't." "Well, we'll find out."

So I goes on down to Mr. Hunt's then. Their attorney told them, "hold back his payments," see, their payments on the notes. He told them to do that, see. So I went on down to Mr. Hunt's. That's where I had my dealing, see, and he says, "Albert,"--! can see him right now--he says, "You know," he says, "now listen, I don't care whether those people pay me or not." I says, "No?" He says, "I'm looking for you to pay me. You own the property. Now, if I foreclose on you, what are you going to do?" I says, "I'll foreclose on them" He says, "That's right. I thought you'd get the message." I says, "Yes." And so I just went on to Carter. Do you know Attorney [Sylvester] Carter?

Q. Yes. Albert Harris 11

A. I went to Attorney Carter and I said, "Now, Attorney Carter, there's about three of them out there that owes me around a hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars back rent." He says, "All right. We want it right now." And he made letters to that effect. So we got the letters mailed out, see. About eight o'clock, here my next door neighbor comes over, "Mr. Harris?" I said, "Yes." My wife, she was here, and she swore she wasn't going to do anything about it--just let them suffer. I says, "Well, we' 11 see." So he come over, ''Mr. Harris?" I said, 'tyes, Gus, what is it?" He says, "I got that letter. I can't pay you no $200." Carter had made it demanding. I said, "Gus, I couldn't have [paid] no $5000, either, but you fellows got together and that 1 s what you made me do. 11 ''Well, I' 11 tell you, Mr. Harris, I just can't pay that price, and he said that he's going to have my water shut off." I says, "Well, that's what happens." He went on to talk about his children, and so forth. My wife said, "Oh, Babe, let him go. Call Carter or write him and tell him not to." I said, ''I knew you were going to come around to that. 11 He stayed over here until eleven o'clock trying to get that thing settled up.

And then there was Patterson. Patterson called up, "Al?" I says, "Yes?" "I'm sick." I said, "Pat, I knew you were sick, but I tried to go along with you." He says, "Well, you know I haven't got that kind .•. " I said, "Of course you haven't got it. And I didn't have no five thousand, but you fellows still. insisting upon that I had to put that water in. You even went down to your attorney the second time trying to." And I said, "I begged Rich Carr; I begged you. I said, 'Don't do that to me because you can't win. Everybody in town knows me." I said, "Even George Hamner said, 'Be careful what laywer you get, because everybody knows him.' Now, I don't want to be nothing like that."

So I met their attorney. He called me and said, ''Mr. Harris, come up to my office, will you?" I went on up there. He said, "Mr. Harris, I think that they must have gave me the wrong story about you and that water." I said, "Mr. Bonjean, the only thing is, just like I told you, I built them a house--and I built them a modern house just like I said I'd do." And I done that. And I said, "But what did they do? They insisted upon me trying to put a water main in [that] costs over five thousand dollars and I didn't have the money. Now, that 1 s the whole thing in a nutshell. 11 He said, ''Let me see about this." So he called them all up there, and I went. And he says, "Now, I don't know. you fellows. I talked to Mr. Harris yesterday when he come up here, and he seems to be a nice fellow." Says, "I don't see why you should renege about helping him put the water in. Now, let's try and see if we can't get together."

Well, he gave them figures to get, you know, what it would take, see, three hundred dollars apiece. I was to pay the five thousand, and they were all supposed to pay the three hundred apiece. And I did; I paid the five thousand, and they paid the other, see. And they Albert Harris 12 wanted to know from him whatever become of that other five hundred dollars that they had gave him, see. And he said, '~y, I used that for fees." He was going to ask for more, they wouldn't go then the second time, no more. And they said they didn't care what happened, they wasn't going to try to sue Al Harris any more about that water.

So that's the way that went, Reverend, and I was very glad that it turned out as it did. But I don't never bring that up because I have found out that there's nothing they could do to me. And the people over in town was very bitter with them--their best friends--because they said, "Why, heck .... " There's one lady said, "Al Harris built you a nice home out there, and then now you Negroes out there don't want to put in no water. He tried to get you this water, and you don't want to pay for it." They found out that they didn't get anything by that, see. Now since then, though, Reverend, I just treat all of them just as nice as I can--do anything for them--because I knew that they couldn't get along without me here. I knew that. But I'm just that type of person.

Q. After that was over, you didn't have any more problems?

A. No, no, no, no more problems. (laughs) They had problems among themselves. What they did was they wanted to fix the roads, see, and they wanted to start at Finley's house. And they did. Well, this here Toppie Gray, he wanted them to start at his house. And we told Toppie (laughs) he called me up and I said, "No, you've got to start at Finley's house at the bottom of the hill before we can get to your house. How can we get to your house if we don't start here at Finleys?" So those are the little troubles that they had. But since then everybody's lived out here; we've had a nice neighbor• hood and nice people. And some of the best people on earth--as that old saying is--live out here.

Q. About how many houses do you have out here, all told?

A. Well, let me see. There's Eddie is one, Patterson is two, Carr is three, Banks is four, Charley Hamner is five, Lockhart is six, Covington is seven, Hart is eight, and Gray was nine, and Virgil is ten, Joe Ray is eleven. And then on this side we got eleven • • . twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen--about eighteen.

Q. About eighteen?

A. Yes.

Q. And this all started from your idea of getting [a subdivision started].

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE Albert Harris 13

Q. Was there any other black who started a subdivision?

A. No, no.

Q. Well, is it fair to say that you're the first one to start one?

A. Yes, the first one to start a subdivision--the black or white--in Sangamon County or the city of Springfield, because there wasn't no. That's since the turn of the century, which was 37 years ago for the 1900's. When I started this subdivision, the John Hay Homes, they come in, and then another little subdivision out south. They all came in. But to start building, I was the first. Because all these were additions before, see, but not a subdivision. There were a lot of additions, but they didn't have anything started new, a plot of ground to start with new. And I did, in 1937.

Q. I see. I think you said that you went into the garbage business. What about that? Were you successful in that?

A. Yes, yes. When I went into the garbage business, I was about twenty, twenty-five years in the garbage business. Before that I was in the laundry business, delivering laundry. And now I'll show you where the prejudice comes in there, too. The boss said to me, John F. Driscoll said to me one day, he says, "Albert, can you drive a truck?" I said, "Sure." I'd just got out of the Army. I says, "Sure. " And he says, ''Well, go in there in the gar a:ge and see if you can start it." And I did. I says, "Funny." He says, ''Well, I' 11 tell you what I'm going to do. I want you to do the driving, and I want Aubrey here to do the delivering." I says, "All right." And so we did.

So one day the laundry men--businessmen that was in the laundry business, they had a meeting every Friday at the St. Nick [St. Nicholas] Hotel. So one Friday--see, the Springfield Laundry was right across the street from the St. Nick Hotel on Jefferson Street. One Friday the boss came in the front door just cussing. "Albert!" I says, "Yes." "Come here." "What's wrong?" He says, "Nobody 1 s going to tell me how to run my business." I says, "What do you mean?" He says, "They told me to·take you off of this truck because people's complaining about having a black driver"--wasn't no black--"having a colored driver. I told them that nobody can run my business and that he's going to stay. I want you to get on that truck and you do the deliver• ing.'' I says, "All right." And I did.

People called up from all over town, white people, about that colored driver. All through the .summer, all through the winter when it's cold weather, the boss would say, "Albert, pick up the girls this morning." They couldn't get to work, you know. And I went. They called in and they said, "He's riding white girls around in the truck," and so forth and so on. All of that. Albert Harris 14

Even the boss's wife cornered me up once. I used to take her home. And what had happened, every time she wanted the car, I'd have to take her home, see. She drove herself, and I had to bring the car back to pick him up, see. So one day she said to me, she said, "Albert, I don't want to go home right now." I says, "You don't?" She says, "No. Drive out to Washington Park." I says, "All right." And I did. She says, "Stop here." And I stopped. I cut off the motor, and I says, "Now what's on your mind, Mrs. Driscoll?" She says, "Albert, there's a lot of pretty colored girls in town, isn't there?" I says, ''Yes. Why?" ''Well, I just thought probably you had a nice looking girl." I says, "What do you mean?" She says , ''Well, because it seems as though that Gwen kind of likes you." I says, "Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, I guess Gwen does," just like .... (laughs) It was a white girl, see. I says, "I see." She says, "Albert, I think that there's •.. why do you want to go .... " I says, "I don't go with her at all. Now, if she likes me, I just can't help that. 11 She says, ''Well, I just wanted to talk to you." I says, "That's okay, that's okay."

So when I got in, I went to Mr. Driscoll about it. And he says, "Albert, I told that wife of mine not to say a word to you about Gwen. And I told her'as long as A1 Harris does his work, I don't care what he does when his day's work is done. He can go with all the gals. And I told her to keep her mouth shut about you and Gwen, because Gwen told her that she was crazy about Al Harris and she didn't care who knew it. That's what happened. Now, as far as I'm concerned, Albert, I don't care what you do just as long as you take care of my business. What you do after hours, that's your business." That spread all over the white section of town. They knew things like that, you understand.

So anyway, Mr. Driscoll died. Then in 1933 I went into the garbage business and made a success out of it, because it's really a lucrative business. Then I raised hogs and I had cows. This here place was black with hogs out here at one time, and cows. I raised hogs and cows. I went into business mostly for myself after--! used to work with Luther Brazier to help him, see. And the wife said, "Babe, as many people as you know, why don't you go for yourself or go with Luther?" I said, "No. I can't work with Luther. We're good friends (doorbell interrupts train of t:hought)but we couldn't do no business together. I think I'll do what you say, go in for myself." And I went in the garbage business in 1933, and by 1937, I was flying. I had a good route, a good business.

And then all I knew about was real estate because I loved real estate. Then I began to plan. Right now, I guess I've had about ten houses in Springfield here that people has bought on contract for a deed because they couldn't get a loan, see. And right now it's a lucra• tive business. I'm just so sorry I'm disabled to do it, because I told them fifteen years ago, no, I mean twenty years ago ••. Mr. Suckow used to be head of the John Hays Homes, just like this other fellow now. Albert Harris 15

Q. Musgrove?

A. Yes, yes. And I said, "Mr. Suckow,"--when they started building those [project] houses, tearing them [old houses] down for to build the project, you know--! said, "That's wrong." And how come me to get acquainted with Mr. Suckow, he was the manager of the bank building there on Fifth and MOnroe Streets, see, and I hauled paper and trash from his place. So I said to him one day, I said, "That's wrong the way they're doing, tearing down these." That's what they did; they tore down all these houses, you know. And I said, "You know yourself, Mr. Suckow, when we had that meeting up there in the office of the housing, Mr. Walsh, the man out of Washington, said to us, 'Do you have places to put these people?' And we told him yes, and I said, we didn't. You know what happened? Mr. Hunt can tell you. They're just robbing those people--both white and black. They sell their homes, then they go ahead and put a high-pressure salesman to sell their homes to somebody, and these people are so eager to get out of that place, they'd almost buy anything. They'd buy a house that wasn't worth as much as the ones they're moving from."

Because Mr. Hunt called me one day and he says, "Al, I want you to go with me." I went to his office. We went out East Washington. He said, "Don't you know," he said, "how they're taking these here colored people and poor whites with the money, these high-powered salesmen? One guy come to me and wanted me to go out and look at a house, and I want to show you the house." He wanted to borrow five thousand dollars, this woman have five thousand dollars. The house, Reverend, wasn't as good as the one she was moving out of. He said, "I don't like this. I told this guy he ought to be prosecuted for trying to take •.•• " But they would; they'd give them their money, buddy, and try to live in these old, dilapidated shacks. And that's really what happened.

And I told Mr. Suckow, "That don't add up. Why do they tear down all those houses? Why didn't they tear down the worst ones and spot them?" But they didn't do that. They did just what they're doing now. And I told them--and Finley can tell you the same thing. No longer than about three, four years ago I told Musgrove--we met at the city council, it was just when Reverend Schultz started here in Springfield. I said, "Why don't you.. And Denny, do you remember Denny?

Q. Denny Kelly?

A. Yes. One time there in the meeting when Finley and I was there, Denny said, III don't see why you don't have these here scattered sites?" And, "Oh no, oh no!" Dr. Weisbaum, wasn't he ... ?

Q. Yes.

A. ''No, it would cost too much, cost too much." And Denny just shut up, see. So I began to think about it. I said, ''What in the world Albert Harris 16

you talk about it costs too much? The utilities are already in." And I go in to Knox. See, they used to send me a list of condemned houses, and then I'd pick out those that I wanted and see if I could get them. And so, well, they got to the place there for a while they were just tearing down too good of houses. What burned me up was we had a house out on Jackson Street. Reverend, this house had an iron rail, you know, iron railings all the way around the porch, and iron steps. All the house needed was decorating and rewiring. It belonged to a fellow named Bandy, a contractor that lives out west here.

I come to see him about the house, and he said, "Yes, Mr. Harris, what you give me for it?" I said, "I'll give you lot price." "How much is that?" I said, "Around two or three thousand dollars, a few thousand dollars." He says, "You bought yourself a lot"--a house rather. I said, "Okay." He says, "Is that going to be cash?" I said, "Cash in ninety days." And he said, "Yes, that's all right." I says, "Now, here's the contract we got to have. I'll give you a contract and you give me one. The one that I'm going to give you is to promise you and assure you that I'm going to take this house over, but there won't be anything against it at all. All I want is you to give me one to show me that the house is clear and free and it hasn't anything against it. How's that?" He says, "That's fine."

I had to go up to city hall. So I went up to city hall, and they says, '~ell, you can't get that house because it's on the schedule to be torn down." I said, "To be torn down?" He says, ''Yes." I says, "Well, I don 1 t want it torn down. I want to buy it." And he said, ''We can't do it. It 1 s on that list." Well, I went to an attorney then, Joe Maddox, and I told Joe about it. Joe says, ''Well, Al, it' 11 cost you too much to go through the courts to get it." I says, "Well, I don't understand; a nice house like that and there they want to tear it down." I said, "Well, I'm going out there and cut the weeds off the front anyhow." So my man and I went out there; we cut the weeds. And the next morning we drove by there, and don't you know they had wrecked that house.

Q. Is that right?

A. They had wrecked that house. And the lot is still standing there right on Thirteenth and Jackson. And I said, ''What in the world is happening here?" I told the inspectors when they come around and see me working on this house, I said, "You're tearing down too many good homes. These old houses are all right. Now look,here's the point. Nobody is going to put twenty-five or thirty thousand dollars in a neighborhood where they haven't got those kind of houses. Nobody's going to do that. But what they will do, they'll put a house that's going to compare with the same neighborhood. And that twenty-five thousand dollar house has got to go someplace else--a lot that you can put it on. That's all that you got to do; but don't tear them down, fix them up." Albert Harris 17

I got a list one day, and there was 2303 East Capitol. Right next to 2303 is a great big house where the Jesus kids are, on the east of it. And they're a swell bunch of kids. Anyway, I says, "Charlie, let's you and I go out to see that house that's on this list." So we drove out there. I looked at the house--had brand new siding on it, aluminum siding, brand new awnings and brand new windows. The only thing we could see was just the front porch was kind of bad, see. And I said, "Charlie, they must have made a mistake. What's wrong with it?" We peeked in at the window--hardwood floors throughout. I said, "I don't know what's wrong with it, but, well, let's pass it on up."

Reverend, about two years passed by. And I got this house on another slip, two years later, see. I said, "Charlie, let's go on. out. I got that house again; let's see what it looks like." Went out there and the kids had started to wreck it by breaking out the windows and things. So I said, "Wonder who owns it?" Couldn't find out who owned it. Finally, I did get a.lead on the FHA [Federal Housing Administration] owned it; they had taken it back. I went up there to see them before, and I told them then, I said, "If you don't get somebody in that house, you're not going to have any house." And this lady says, "Oh, we'll take care of that." I says, "Okay." And then when I come back, then I told her what happened. I said, "Two years ago I bid on this house, and you didn't want me to have it. Now I haven't got a little time to fix it up."

So Chuck, the FHA man, he called me up. He says, "AI, I'd like for you to fix this house up for us." I says, "Oh, I don't think I want to do that. I haven't got time." He says, ''Well, you're not too busy. All we want you to do is just go ahead and fix it up. We'll pay you what it's worth, and you're not doing so much." I says, "Well, okay then." He said, "Did you ever do any work for the FHA or for the government?" I says, "You just go out and look at A1 Harris' subdivisions." I said, "I got three of them out there that I did work for." So I said, "Yes, I'll do it." So I did work for them. I fixed that house up, Reverend, and this colored fellow that owns a tavern, he bought it--the one that's in trouble all the time. The one where his boy--the one on Thirteenth and Washington. What's his name? Now he's got one there across from Dr. [Edwin] Lee's.

Q. Yes, I don't recall his name right now.

A. He bought it. He got a good buy on it; fourteen thousand dollars was all that he paid for the house. But it's well worth it because it had everything new on it when we fixed it up, see. So, that's been my business since then, fixing up these here old condemned houses. And giving the people a chance. Don't rent them, Reverend. This is what happens when you rent them. Every time you come to collect your rent, there's something wrong, see.

I got a house there on Capitol Avenue. A white lady said to me when Albert Harris 18 we were working on it, she come by, she said, "Mister, you going to rent that house when you get it finished?" I says, "No, I'm going to sell it." She says, 110h, I can't buy. 11 I says, ''Why?" She says, "Because I haven 1 t got any down payment. 11 I says, "Lady, can you pay me $75 a month?" She had about five children. She says, "Oh, yes!" I said, "You bought yourself a house." She said, "I have?" I said, "Yes. Now, I'll take you down to my lawyer and get the contract drawn up and then you take me to your lawyer and see if it's satis• factory." And she did. Everything was fine.

So that lady stayed there three years, and just here last year--Reverend, I felt so bad about it--I got the letter. Last fall I went there, there wasn't no .•• they had moved! I think it was about in Septem• ber. I said, "What in the world?" And the fellow said, "Al, those people moved out on you." I says, "Yes. I don't know where they'd go." I said, "They didn't have to move. If they wanted to move," I said, "they were buying this place, all they had to do was turn it over to somebody else or let me know about it."

Well, I guess a month went by, a month or month and a half. One day I got a letter. In this letter it says, "Mr. Harris, we had to move. We're sorry that we didn't notify you, but we just can't stay there any longer because those people next door are just always talking 1 1 about, 'Why don t they go where their own color is. " And says, "We were really afraid to go outside." There were some darkies that lived right next door to them, see. And it says, "But you have been a wonderful man to us and we think a lot of you, Mr. Harris, but we're sorry, we just had to move." Now that's what really happened.

Right now the house needs fixing up because I haven't had time. But what I'm afraid of, Reverend, is the same thing is going to happen. If I could rent it to some blacks like next door ... but of course, this_all might change in the near future. I don't know. But that's pathetic when you're afraid to live in your own house. And that's just really what happened. So that's the thing.

But I give these people a chance. I only had one house--one deal to go sour. That's a fellow, Reverend, he makes $400 a week out to the Commonwealth Edison. And he couldn't pay $85 a month. Single! He'd always have an excuse when his payday come. He'd always have an excuse, "Well, I can't pay you, Mr. Harris, because I'm so busy. They're working me night and day and I just didn't have time to get out there." I said, "All you have to do is drop it in the mail." ''Well, I'll do that from now on." Solo and behold, one night he came out here and I said to him, I said, "How come you got out here tonight?" "Well, the old lady, she wants to go out to have dinner tonight . " I says , "Oh, I see. "

And so I met this lady the next day or two, (laughs) and I said, "Say, what happened to that boyfriend of yours? He never got out to see me on his payday for his rent." She says, "Oh, Mr. Harris, I don't know, Albert Harris 19 but he's certainly swell. He takes you to the Top of the Arch, and he spent $75 on me the other night."

Q. Oh? (laughter)

A. Yes, sir. "He's really swell. He entertains you." And that's it. That's where his money went to. So I had to foreclose on him, see. But I wasn't going to foreclose on him. I told him this, I said, "Listen, what you do--you and I will do it--let's go together and fix this apartment up and build another apartment onto it." "Well, we'll do that." Shucks, that didn't happen. That didn't happen.

You see, I was at this meeting Saturday, Reverend. I don't know, I don't understand those people up there. Now they got a woman here I think that she is--Reverend, one thing before you go, I want to get to the riot.

Q. Yes. Well, I think we're going to be corning back some other time. You have a lot to say yet. Go ahead.

A. So anyway, I went on up to this meeting. Roosevelt insisted upon me corning. He said, "I' 11 take you over there." We went. And they got some colored lady, out of Chicago I think she is. She hasn't been here long--a month or two. She's something in the government; in HUD [Housing and Urban Development], I think she's in that. She was telling them about the kind of deal that they expected, so forth and so on. So this here colored fellow--Mr. Smith I think is his name-• he said, "Well, can I ask you a question?" She says, ''Well, it's not necessary to ask me. I've explained everything to you." He says, "But I got a question that I want .•• " "No, I explained everything to you, and I don't see any sense in you asking me any questions." And he says, "Well, I just want to • • . " She said, "No," says . . .

Q. Now, what meeting was this?

A. Saturday.

Q. You mean at the . . •

A. Neighborhood Center under Roosevelt's

Q. You mean the pact meeting?

A. Yes, pact. And you know, all the people in there, yes.

Q. In the NDP [Neighborhood Development Program] area?

A. Yes. And so he says, ''Well, I just wanted ..• " She says, "No, it's not necessary." He tried to talk, and she just kept on talking, wouldn't give him a chance. Pretty soon the fellow says, he says, Albert Harris 20

''Listen, all I want " ''You had a chance; you asked me questions." And he says, "Well, can I--I just ... " Well, everybody was getting kind of upset, too, about it, you understand. So he turned around and he says, "Well, I'm going to ask a real estate man what he thinks about it." So he did. She says, "Well, I don't care who you ask. It makes no difference because I answered all the questions that you want to know." And that woman was the most uncouth woman I ever seen in my life! She was for a fact!

And it made me hot at Single, before he shut her up, see, to give the man a chance. And he did, Mr. Smith and then he had to go and ask somebody. You know, he just asked them--! forget what the ques• tion was, but it wasn't nothing that she couldn't have answered. But she just kept on talking, kept on talking. So I said, "Listen, Miss, (laughs) I said, all due respect to you, these people here are going to have to have them an attorney when they go up to do things." She says, ''Well, that 1 s right." I says, "Yes, that 1 s right." And some of the sisters behind me said, "Amen." I said, "Because the way you're talking--the way your office is going to handle things with what you're talking about--they don't know where they are." I said, "Because the law is, now, when you deal and sell in property you're supposed to have yourself an attorney anyway."

Q. That's right. You say your garbage business was doing pretty good. Now, how long did you work at that?

A. Twenty years.

Q. Did you work alone or did you have someone?

A. I had men. I worked alone, and I also had men.

Q. How many trucks did you have?

A. I had two trucks.

Q. Did you pick up commercial?

A. Everything. Commercial and residential, too. Yes, sir. I went into the garbage business in 1937. That's what I said. Yes, sir. I made a good success out of it. It was hard work, but I loved every day of it; I loved it!

Q. What are you doing now?

A. Right now, as far as my business is concerned, it would be just buying up these old houses here. See, I let them know Saturday that I wanted to buy a couple of those houses and repair them and let people buy them on contract, because they'll take more interest if they're buying it. Albert Harris 21

Q. Now, where did you go to elementary school?

A. Enos.

Q. You went to Enos?

A. Yes, and Trapp, the old Trapp school. Enos and the old Trapp school. And in that Enos school, I was the leader. Yes, sir.

Q. You want to tell me more about that?

A. Yes. Every time anything was done--good or bad. The teacher that I worked for--I worked for a teacher, you know, sweeping the walks on Saturdays. She was with us four years, one teacher. Well, what had happened, Enos school only had four grades at that time, see. Then the highest was the fourth grade. Then there was four more years to come to the eighth grade, you see. Well, we went to this teacher when we were all in the fourth grade. And she never flunked nobody. We went clear through to the eighth grade. And when we left out of that school, the day we graduated from four years with that teacher, you'd think there was a funeral in town, because we had been with her all those years, see. And everybody loved Mrs. Tharnt. Everybody loved Mrs. Tharnt, but I worked for her, see.

Q. After you went from there, you went to Springfield High.

A. Springfield High, yes.

Q. Now, this old Trapp school, was this the .•.

A. That's the old Armbruster tent and awning place there on ..• what is that street?

Q. Is that Elliot?

A. No, there on Second and Reynolds.

Q. Now, in relation to Enos, was this school where ~ou_ ?Pent your fifth to eighth grades?

A. That was the Enos.

Q. What did you spend at Trapp school?

A. Oh, that was from the eighth on up to the twelfth.

Q. Well, what did you go to Springfield High School for?

A. Now wait. Let me get this straight.

Q. Yes. You said you went to Enos and the old Trapp school. Albert Harris 22

A. Yes. Now, when we left the eighth grade, we went to the Trapp.

Q. In the ninth grade then; the Trapp would be ninth?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. Maybe nine and ten or something like that?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. And from there you went to Springfield?

A. Yes, went to Springfield.

Q. Then after you finished high school what did you do?

A. After I finished high school I went to war.

Q. Oh, you are a veteran?

A. Yes.

Q. What branch of the government did you . . .

A. I was motor truck driver.

Q. In the Army?

A. In the Army, yes.

Q. Did they draft you or did you volunteer?

A. Volunteered.

Q. How long did you stay in?

A. Two years.

Q. Did you go overseas?

A. No, just started when the war stopped.

Q. Oh, is that right?

A. Yes. They kept us here in the [United] States because we had a show--the soldiers. We had a show, and they kept us for entertaining all the time. That's the reason I didn't get overseas.

Q. What did you do on this show?

A. Sing. Albert Harris 23

Q. Oh, you're a singer?

A. No, I wasn't that good, (laughter) but we had a good show though.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, we had a good show. And another thing, we were from the North, see. We were stationed in North Carolina and South Carolina and Georgia, and we were from the North. And what had happened, we were just a little bit better than these here boys from the South, see--colored and white, you understand. When we made a hit was the first time when we was shipped south. We had a colored fellow with us by the name of Ben Taylor who was our captain, our top sergeant. He was a soldier, too. And before we entered the Army, he was an old veteran; and he was our captain. So we had a big celebration that Sunday when we got to the camp down in Chickamauga Park, Georgia; that's where our camp was, Camp Greenleaf. So they had about, oh, I guess a couple of hundred thousand white soldiers there, see, and only one regiment of blacks. And when we came in, coming we made the second regiment. But these boys were fixing to pull out to go overseas when we come in, see. And they did; they went overseas.

Well, the next Sunday we had this here big parade. He had a time, this here white captain. We couldn't bring the line up straight like he wanted to do. We couldn't do it. He kept on trying. So finally Ben says, "Captain, excuse me, but can I try to bring these men in the dress parade?" And he says, ''Yes." When you want to--in making a line straight, say from here to that house, even down there, you have got to have a guide center to put on your eyes, everybody look to the center, see, and then it'll straighten right out, see. Well, this here white captain didn't know that, see. He kept calling and says, "Try to bring this line up." Well, we couldn't do it, see because it was too long. But when Ben got up there and said, "Guide center," well, when he said that, that line just went just straight because there wasn't no place else to go, because everybody was trying to see one another. And. that will bring you right together, see.

Well, then when they saw we knew how to do, what to do--and then we had our band, too, and our show--well, they just kept us there to show. So that's the reason I never got overseas on account of we were just used here at home.

Q. Since you were born in Springfield, you would know something about Springfield in the early days. For instance, when you were going to grade school, what was Springfield like?

A. Oh, Springfield was a pretty nice little town, and I've always thought so. But the only time that I found out how the prejudice was in Springfield was when I started to build. That was when I found out how the prejudice was, because I know one fellow there at Albert Harris 24

a bank who wouldn't loan you nothing. And he was a Catholic fellow. I forget his name, but it was the First National Bank. But he wouldn't loan you anything. But as far as the people are concerned, I never did have any trouble with anybody.

Q. What about movies? Could you attend movies?

A. No, no, you couldn't. But let me show you what happened. I seen that even way back in those days; that's even right up to date now. Of course, it's not too much but What I mean by that is this, Reverend. I had a lot of white playmates out here and at school. And the kids would come to school some mornings and say, "Al, did you see such and such a show last night?" I said, "No." Then I told them what had happened. They couldn't believe it, "You mean to say that you couldn't go?" I said no. The place where we had to go was called the peanut heaven and it was always . . .

Q. Called what?

A. The peanut heaven--gallery. They just thought that was • they didn't think anything about it because they believe that everybody could go to the shows and things.

And I remember one incident that I had. This Lasley, you know, the garbage man, Lasley. Well, his brother (laughs), they had a show there on Sixth Street--Tivoli Theatre. A movie show. And so the wife and I came down Fifth Street there, and we met Lasley and his wife right there in front of the show, and we were both going in. Well, Lasley gets his ticket and he goes on in, he and his wife. So I started following him and, Babe, she says, "Oh, I want some peanuts." I turned around and went back and got the peanuts." When I got up there, Lasley had gone. I didn't know where he went, see. So I just walked straight on in. When I got inside (laughs) the usher says, "There's no seats in here." I says, noh. Let me have your light. 11 He handed it to me. So I went flashing it on down toward the front and I found these seats. Babe and I sat down. Pretty soon here he come down, says, "Mister, you got my flashlight?" I says, "Yes. I got a seat, too." (laughter) "I see you have." And so that was all that was said.

I said to Lasley the next day when I saw him, I said, "Where did you go?" He says, "You go upstairs." (laughter) I didn't go upstairs; I went straight on in.

Q. Is that right? And nobody said anything to you?

A. No, nobody said anything to me.

Q. Now, was this restricted by . would they physically tell you not to go or was it just an understood thing that blacks wouldn't go down? Albert Harris 25

A. It was just mostly an understood thing, because I'll tell you what had happened. It seems, though, after the thing was open, after it did get open, sometimes people would get mad at one another about it. Every time they'd look over and look all around and see blacks, then they'd go sit down and segregate themselves, see. So we got away from that. Of course, Simeon Osby, he tried pretty hard, too, to try to get them integrated that way about different things.

Q. Now, was there any other incidents at any of the movie houses, the theatres, that you had?

A. No, no. There's no more incidents that way.

Q. Someone told me that they had a theatre house known as a nickelodeon. Where was that located?

A. There on Washington Street. On Washington Street between right where that theatre is now

Q. Was that the Orpheum?

A. No, the Orpheum was on the corner of Sixth and Jefferson. No, that theatre used to be the State Theatre right there by Fishman's, up there from there. That was the nickelodeon; that's the one that only cost a nickel to go to.

Q. Was that owned by blacks?

A. No, no. The blacks owned the one way up there--the Pekin.

Q. Pekin?

A. Yes, between Eleventh and Tenth.

Q. On Washington?

A. Yes, on Washington. Blacks owned that.

Q. Also, I didn't ask you anything about recreation so far. What did you all do for recreation when you were young?

A. All that I knew, Reverend, about the recreation was baseball. Oh, that was my game! I was a baseball fan. That was all.

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO

A. . •• drug store, Clarkson's, and there was Whalen's there was Booth's. They were all colored patronage, especially Booth. They were on Eighth and Washington. They were all colored. Albert Harris 26

Q. When you say they were all colored, do you mean . • .

A. Patrons, yes.

Q. But they had white druggists and all?

A. Yes, yes, yes. Q. Did they serve ice cream or serve . . .

A. Yes, ice cream.

Q. Could you go in and sit down?

A. Yes, yes, especially ••• oh, yes.

Q. What about those that didn't cater to colored? Could you go to these drugstores and sit down?

A. We didn't •.• no. We didn't have too many of those, Reverend. I really don't know any drugstore in those days that refused us to sitting down. But I do know on the outskirts--now, there's a drug• store out on South Grand, they turned me down one time. I was with my boss, John Driscoll, from the laundry, and her [Mrs. Driscoll], we went out driving. So Mr. Driscoll says, "Albert, let's drive up here and will get some ice cream soda." I said, "All right." And I drove up there, and the girl come out. They told her what they wanted. She says, "Well, we can't serve him." Mr. Driscoll says, "You can't serve him?" She said, "No." She says, "Well, you can't serve us." And he just says, "Albert, drive on off."

Q. Where was this drugstore?

A. That was on the corner of Spring--! think that's Spring--or Pas• field and South Grand. I think the drugstore is still there.

Q. That's Pasfield and South Grand.

A. Yes.

Q. It's owned by •••

A. Used to be Waters, years ago.

Q. It's owned by Watt Brothers now.

A. Is it? Well, I knew that was where it was at. But now you take Broadwell's Drugstore there on Fifth and Washington, they would serve you. Didn't have no trouble there. Albert Harris 27

Q. Where?

A. On Fifth and Washington. Then there was Whalen's up on Seventh and Washington, and Bowman's. All those would serve you.

Q. Now, what about churches?

A. The churches, Reverend, I think was just about the same then as they are right now.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes. Now, they will go a little different now, because the fellow at the bank, he wanted me to join Westminster [Presbyterian Church] out here. That's when my wife was living. Of course, my wife was from the South and she was never sold on white. But John, he was just that type of fellow. He says, ''Well, Albert"--or Al--"why don't you come over and join our church?" Then we had another church right down here on Walnut Street. They (inaudible) very big, or like that. I'll say that it is better than it was years ago.

And I could tell, Reverend, even now--well, you know, today these kids, these younger, white and black, they all get together and they don't think like we thought years ago, see. Now, I noticed there last night at bingo--that's what we were playing; I'm not going to say we wasn't, because we was there playing trying to get twenty-five dollars or what• ever it was. (laughs) So there was some boys, white girls and colored boys, and they were all mixing. It used to didn't be that way, but it is now.

Q. Now, when you were young, did you attend church?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. What church did you go to?

A. Saint Paul's [AME]. When we were kids, that was our Sunday school.

Q. Where was Saint Paul's located?

A. Right where the bus station used to be. Sixth and Mason. You know where it used to be.

Q. Yes, where the police station, out here where they have their cars and their filling station.

A. Yes, that's where we attended, Saint Paul's.

Q. Now if you want to, why don't we stop here and then I'll pick up from here next time. Albert Harris 28

A. That's all right.

Q. Okay. (tape turned off)

Q. [You were going to tell me about an] incident about borrowing money.

A. Yes. I needed a hundred dollars, and so I went to a fellow by the name of 0. G. Scott. He used to be in the loan business here. And so I said to Mr. Scott, I said, "Mr. Scott, I want to get a hundred dollars." And he says, "We don't loan to colored people." I says, "All right." And I started out and he said, "But I'll tell you what I'll do. If you can go out and get me three white co-makers, I'll loan you a hundred dollars." I said, "All right."

So I went on out; I went to my boss, Rose Harbour, first. She says, "Albert, what do you want a hundred dollars for?" I said, ''Well, I need a hundred dollars." And she says, "I do, too, but where are you going to get it?" Because it was during the Depression, see. And I said, "Oh, I don't know where I'm going to get it. 11 I said, "I can get it; I can borrow it if you'll sign a note." She said, "If I sign?" I says, "Yes." So I showed her the note. She said, "Yes, but what are you going to do for the other one?" I said, "Well, I don't know yet, but I'll work out something."

So I was coming down Fifth and Adams Streets the next day and I saw one of my customers, laundry customer. She had an old Model T Ford that had stopped on her. She hollered at me. So I stopped and I said, ''What 1 s happened?" "Oh, Albert, this thing just needs working on and I haven't got no money. Can you get me started?" I says, "Yes." So I got her started and she drove on home. Well, the next day I had to pick up her laundry. I says, "Well, how's the car?" She says, "Albert, I just need a hundred dollars to get that car fixed up." I says, "I'll tell you what to do. If you sign this note," and I showed it to her. She says, "Who's that?" I says, "That's my boss." Said, "Well, yes, I'll sign it." I says, "You'll have a hundred. We can't borrow but three hundred," that was the limit then, see. I says, "You'll have a hundred and I'll have a hundred and she wants a hundred." "Well, sure." So they signed it, you see. But that was only two.

So I went on back to Mr. Scott. I says, "Mr. Scott, here you are." I showed him the piece of paper, and he looked at it. He says, '\lliy, you only got two here." I says, "Yes. Well, you make the third one." He says, "Me make the third one?" I says, "Yes. You want me to go back and tell these white ladies that you wouldn't sign this thing and they did?" ''Well, no. I wouldn't want you . . . " I said, ''Well, all right, then. Why won't you sign it?" He did. (laughter) He says, '~ou got more nerve than " (laughter) From that day on, if he saw me downtown--he'd be talking to somebody--he'd say, "Wait a minute. Come here, Albert." Say, "This guy here has got more Albert Harris 29 nerve. Do you know what he did?" And then he'd tell them. (laughter)

But there's one lesson I learned from him, Reverend. He said this and it's so true. He says, "Now, Al, I'll loan you this money, but I want you, when my day is due to pay me. I don't care who you got to pay, you come and pay me because you can get some more money from me to pay that guy. But pay me first." And Reverend, that's just the way it has turned out. Now, if I owe a note at the bank, and maybe I owe this guy a payment on one of these houses, the first thing I do, Reverend, is go to that bank and pay that note at the bank. I'm not going to pay it no place else but the bank, because I can go to that bank and get money to pay that guy out there, but I can't go to him and get money to pay the bank. I've learned that; that's the way I operate. Yes, sir.

Q. Did the Depression affect you much?

A. Yes, it did, Reverend. Yes, it did. But I had a wife--the one that's dead--that she was the best woman to .... Well, what had happened, Reverend, I remember I had a nice home over here on Lincoln Avenue where we lived. It was a nice place. Someday I'll show it to you. There wasn't no money during the Depression; business was falling off at the laundry. We had got to the place where, Reverend, we couldn't get enough money to buy a bag of soap. A whole big hundred pound bag or two hundred pound bag of soap only cost around six dollars. And we couldn't get the money to buy it. A lot of mornings we would go to that laundry and didn't have no soap. And I seen the time that I've gone there and pawned my watch to get enough money so we could go out and buy some soap.

So I remember the time that Rose Harbour, the woman we worked for, Rose says, "Fellows, fellow workers, kids, I'm going to have to close up. The only way I can do to keep open is for you to let me owe you your pay." She says, "I can't do it without that." And she says, "Well, what do you want to do? You want to help me? Tomorrow's payday; I can't pay you, but I can borrow some soap if you'll help me." So I guess about twelve of us just said, "Yes, we'll help you. We won't take our money until we get started." Well, we did.

And then there's the time I've seen, Reverend, that I didn't have a pair of mate socks. There at the laundry everybody would pick up one here and one there, see.

And then as for my home, I couldn't make a payment on my gas bill. Got behind; couldn't pay for it. The man was going to shut it off. The wife, I said, "Honey, he's going to shut our gas off." She says, "Well, let him shut it off. We'll use the coal stove." We had a combination coal and gas. Said, "We'll just use the coal stove." I says, "All right." The next day--now this is facts--the man come out to pull out the furnace, here. My wife said, "Well, I'll give you ten dollars on it to hold it. And she did. Albert Harris 30

And the next thing, the man come out and was going to shut off the water. She says, "Babe, don't worry about the water"--no, not the water, but the lights. Yes, because we had a well, see. So said they were going to shut off the lights. She says, "Let him shut them off. We'll use our lamps." "All right." Well, that's the way it was with her--everything! Everything that they'd do, she didn't .

Q. She had a counter.

A. Yes, sir, She did for a fact. There was one thing that had happened, see, what had happened to her, Reverend, she had plenty of clothes before, see; she didn't worry about clothes or anything. And then when Luther Brazier used to . . . . Now, Luther always did have a pretty good living from this garbage. That's the reason I went in the business, see. And he'd say, "Come on, Al. Let's go riding." Well, we'd go in his car, see. So one day she said to me, she said, "Honey, let's don't worry about Luther going . . . we don't have to go in the car with Luther every time he says. Just wait until we're able to get a car." And we did, and that was it. Oh, I never will have another wife like her. Oh boy, she was for a fact; she was a sweet thing. Now, that was happening all during the Depression. Things were rough.

Q. Did you finally get your pay when things settled, from the laundry?

A. Yes, yes, yes. As the Lord would have it--and I'll always believe it--she got the contract for the Empire Hotel, doing their laundry. That put us on our feet. That really put us on our feet. But the mistake that Driscoll made was he cheated. And Rose kept telling him about it, see. We had big bundles of laundry and if they weighed four hundred pounds, he'd mark six hundred pounds, like that, see.

And so one day Charles went over to get the laundry. He came back and he said, "No, they haven't got no laundry for us." I can see old man Driscoll now. He used to smoke a cigar all the time. "I'll go over and see what's wrong." And they just told him. Said that he was charging them too much, just charging them overweight, things that they didn't have, and that was it, see. But as luck would have it, the Lord took him and left Rose. Then Rose was straight as an eagle.

Q. Now, what was the relation of Rose and Driscoll?

A. Nothing, just partners. That's all. Well, what happened, see, Rose was the forelady. Driscoll was the owner and the boss. And what happened, when Driscoll died--he kept telling Rose before he died that . . • . You know, if you know that you're going to have a will that's going to be in your favor, you just don't keep on after the person to go ahead and do the right thing about it. See, he'd made this will out but he never had it witnessed, see. Now and then Albert Harris 31 he'd feel pretty good, he'd say, "Now, Rose, when I die you're going to have this laundry. Everything's going to be all right." And Rose said, "Well, what about your sister?" "Oh, my sister's up there. You have to tell them that Johnny said this is your laundry whether you have the will or not. They wouldn't cross Johnny." Talking about himself, see.

Well, when Driscoll died, he had that will, but he didn't have it signed. Made to Rose. And so when they came from New York, Rose told them what Johnny said, see. They said, "Oh, no, Johnny wouldn't leave you the whole laundry." So Rose, the only way she could do was to buy them out. Finally she bought them out; then she ran the laundry herself. Then after I quit there in 1933, when I quit, then Rose kept the laundry going, but I'd go by there now and then to see how things were going. Finally, she got her arm caught in the mangle and she lost it, see. But still she went right on. She was a good Catholic. Then when Rose died here not too long ago, about four years ago she passed, that was it. That was it.

Q. Where was this laundry located?

A. It was 415 East Jefferson. I'll never forget that laundry.

Q. Okay. Well, we're going to stop here, Mr. Harris, and then we will pick up .

A. We'll pick up anytime you say.

Q. All right, we'll set a date. (tape turned off)

Q. This is the second meeting with Mr. Harris in his home. Mr. Harris, when we left the last time you were talking about the laundry that you_ left.

A. During the time that I was at the laundry, I opened up a restaurant. I operated it for about, oh, only about a year with the wife and I. Then after that I went into the hog business.

Q. Now, where was the restaurant located?

A. Tenth and Washington. And I also opened a restaurant in a hotel at Eleventh and Adams.

Q. This restaurant, you say you only stayed for about a year. What happened?

A. It was just a little bit too confining for the wife and I, especially on Sundays. We felt like we wanted to enjoy some of the nicities of life, and we just stopped operating it.

Q. About how many customers per day did you have? Albert Harris 32

A. Oh, the business wasn't bad; we had a pretty good business. But it was too much for the two of us, and I was still working at the Springfield Laundry. It was just too much.

Q. You didn't have any help?

A. Well, yes, we had a waitress, and the wife done the cooking. Yes. We just decided, though, that it was just too much because we could never go any place on Sunday. We couldn't go to church, and she was a very religious woman. And I wanted to go along with her, so we just stopped.

Q. Even though it was a profitable business?

A. Yes, yes, it was a profitable business.

Q. And there was no way you could get someone to run it?

A. No, no. There wasn't any way because, you see, after certain hours the lady that was waiting on tables, the waitress, she was off. Then there was times while she was off that different people came in, see. And I was on the route for Springfield Laundry, and then that would make her [my wife] try to go fix . • •

Q. Wait the tables and cook.

A. Yes. And that was that. Then after I left the laundry and this restaurant business, then I started in the hog business.

Q. But before you go to the hog business, you mentioned about a hotel.

A. Oh, yes. We was in this hotel on the corner of Eleventh and Adams called the Dudley Hotel. First it was the Brown, then the Dudley Hotel.

Q. Now, what size hotel was this?

A. The Dudley Hotel had, oh, I guess about twenty rooms, I imagine. But we were subleasing from a man by the name of Mr. Bowen. We were subleasing the hotel, and we had a restaurant in there, see.

Q. You had a restaurant in the hotel?

A. Yes. We were subleasing the restaurant from the hotel, from Mr. Bowen. We were doing pretty good, and Mr. Bowen lost his lease and we didn't know it. So he come to me one day and told me, he says, "Albert, we have lost our lease." I says, "Why didn't you tell me? I'd have picked it up." He says, "Well, we just didn't do it." So they foreclosed when he lost his lease, and that put us out. Albert Harris 33

Q. Now, when he lost his lease, about where was your lease with him? Was it almost up for that year?

A. Yes, it was almost up for that year.

Q. Now, who operated this hotel? I mean after you subleased it from him, who was in charge of it?

A. Mr. Bowen.

Q. Mr. Bowen owned it?

A. Mr. Bowen, yes. But all we was interested in was the restaurant.

Q. Oh, I see. You got the restaurant, not the hotel itself?

A. No, just the restaurant, see. And he operated the hotel and he lost his lease there. Well, that put us out, too, because we weren't operating from anybody else but him.

Q. Who was in charge of this restaurant in this hotel?

A. Of the hotel restaurant? We were.

Q. I mean you all were doing the cooking and .

A. Yes, yes. yes. In the hotel. We had that.

Q. Now, what time was this in relation to the restaurant at Tenth and Washington?

A. This was before the restaurant at Tenth and Washington. In fact, I wasn't married then. I wasn't married. I had some help. Well, this one lady died.

Q. After Mr. Bowen lost his lease, was that place ever opened again?

A. Not by us. I don't believe ... I think it was, I'm not sure. I really can't remember, Reverend. Let's see, I don't think that it was though. No, because he just kept it. The next people that rented the hotel, I forget who they were, they just kept just their hotel. They just had a hotel. I think that was Dudley, a fellow by the name of Dudley. That's where they got the name Dudley Hotel. He got killed. A fellow shot him.

Q. Did you lose money in the restaurant?

A. No, we didn't lose any money. I just got right on out of it when I lost my lease. My lease was lost on account of Mr. Bowen, see. We never had any misunderstanding. I just went on. Albert Harris 34

Q. You didn't try to start any more restaurants?

A. No, no. I didn't try to start anything. The only thing that I did do, though, Reverend, I had a grocery store.

Q. Oh? Where was this?

A. I had grocery store. It's right there now where Roosevelt Walker's place is. It's a little long house there on Fifteenth and Adams. Well, there was just a little bitty one-room building there, see, and I had a grocery store there.

Q. When was this grocery store?

A. The grocery store, it was When I was working at the laundry, too. Now, the lady that belonged to our church, she worked for me. Mildred Russell? You know her because you went to see her. She lived out at Mechanicsburg. Mildred I forget Mildred's last name. Now, I had that little grocery store for about a year.

Q. About what kind of volume business did you do?

A. Oh, in those days I think ... I was always busy, I can say that. But how much I made, I can't tell that. But I do know that I was busy, and it was a good thing. It was too much for me to try to drive this truck. And I had to have two jobs all the time, see. I never would quit that laundry. But I ran this here little grocery store and hired Mildred to take care of everything. And she did.

Q. Now, she was the only person you had in there?

A. Yes, yes. It got too heavy, and so I just had to give it up, that's all. I just couldn't handle that. I'd have to go ahead and get my supplies, you know, for the grocery store because it was cheaper for me to go pick it up.

Q. Did you get it wholesale?

A. Yes. So I just gave it up, that's all.

Q. When, ordinarily, would you have to go pick up the supplies?

A. About twice a week. I bought the stuff from a place there, the wholesale house. Oh, it wasn't Bunn's. Yes, it was, too. Bunn's Wholesale House. Made a trip down there twice a week. Yes, Bunn's Wholesale House.

Q. What did you sell in there? Everything?

A. Everything, everything like a corner grocery store would sell in those days, see. Just bread and meat and potatoes and vegetables and Albert Harris 35 pies and things like that, and candy, sundries and things like that. It was a good little business, but I was just overloaded.

Q. So actually, your business ventures thus far--your restaurant and this grocery store--actually, it's not that it went down, it's just that . . .

A. Just couldn't take care of it. It was just too much.

Q. And it was not profitable enough for you to quit the laundry and to put full time in?

A. That's right. And another thing that I didn't do--l wouldn't do--and that was credit, see, because I couldn't let people have credit. I just couldn't do that.

Q. Did that help you?

A. In a way it helped me and in a way it didn't. The way that it helped me, what I did make was there. The experience that I learned from that grocery store was this. I had all my goods and stuff on the shelf yes, you see, and the first time--it was thirty days that I was supposed to pay for my supply of goods, and the end of the thirty days come, I didn't have any money and didn't have any supplies. So I learned right then. So this here salesman said to me, he says, "Well, Mr. Harris, you must have sold it. I don't see anything on the shelf." I kind of laughed and said, "Yes, that's right. I guess I did." He said, "Well now, what do you want to do about it?" I said, I'm going to pay you, but I'll know from now on it's going to be cash." And that's how come I turn to cash, because that credit didn't get it. When the time come for me to pay the bill, I didn't have the money and I didn't have the supplies. So I said right then and there that I wasn't going to have any more credit.

Q. Were there other grocery stores in the ..

A. Vicinity? No, the closest then, Reverend, was Bradley Grocery Store.

Q. Where was that located?

A. That was on, I think it was Eighteenth and Cass. Oh, yes, yes. It was right there at Pleasant Grove, right there by the church. Yes, Eighteenth and Cass. That was the closest one as I remember.

Q. Your grocery store was at .

A. Fifteenth and Adams.

Q. Well, that was quite a little way. Albert Harris 36

A. Yes, yes.

Q. Now, after the first month when those people took credit and you didn't have the money, when they came back for groceries and you told them that you couldn't give any credit--it was cash basis--did you lose customers?

A. No, I didn't. I didn't lost any because I--see, this here right on the corner, you know, that's where Al Gard's got his .

Q. Fifteenth and Adams.

A. Yes. Well, then there's Mahaffney's Drugstore was right down next door, down going west on Jefferson. You know that little building there? Well, that's where the drugstore was, and Mr. Mahaffney, if I needed anything, he would let me have it in regards to somebody that I felt like I could trust but I knew that they were short. He would let me have anything that they wanted, see, because a lot of stuff that he carried, it was just like I had in the grocery store. The same supplies, see, and he let me have stuff like that. That enabled me to go on and keep on somebody that I knew was all right, see. But as far as losing any of them, I didn't. I just got -.too busy.

Q. Now, this Mahaffney Drugstore, was it the neighborhood drugstore in that vicinity?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. What did he have? Did he have a soda fountain or anything like that in there?

A. Now let me see. I believe he did; I'm not quite sure. It's been quite a while ago, but I believe he did, because it hasn't been too long that the whole family of Mahaffneys has died. It hasn't been too long ago.

Q. When you got out of the grocery business, you just sold out?

A. Yes, yes. I just sold out. A lot of stuff, though, I brought home. I can remember that well. I had a lot of stuff that I brought home, such as all the dry sundries. See, I kept everything like pencils and paper and things for school kids and everything. I kept all that there, too, see. Then when I got ready to close up, I sold as much as r·could and then the other stuff I broughb:home. And I've got pencils downstairs right now that I brought from my grocery. Lead pencils I got right now that I bought for my store.

Q. Now, what year are we talking about?

A. We're talking about in the 1920's, because Albert Harris 37

Q. That was before the Depression then?

A. Yes. No, that was ... that Depression hit us about .•. the stock market crashed in 1929. This was before the Depression because in 1929 when we called that a Black Friday is when the crash came.

Q. What kind of business were you doing at that time?

A. I was at the laundry. Yes, I was at the laundry. No, I left the laundry and then I got in this here garbage business.

Q. Yes, but you didn't leave the laundry until 1933.

A. Yes, 1933. I was trying to find out when our lake was built. I forgot. That had to be between--when that lake was built--that had to be between the crash and the time I quit the laundry because I was hauling her coal at the Springfield Laundry and running my garbage route. That was probably in the early 1930's. Yes, it was, because I was in the garbage business about twenty-five or thirty years. Then I began to buy up this here, got this place here. Then way back in 1960 when I quit the garbage business . • .

Q. I'd like to ask you something about this garbage hauling. You did commercial hauling?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you have to do at the lake?

A. The lake? Oh, I was using my truck, helping clear the way for the lake, hauling wood and debris. Then I was also .•.

Q. Where did you haul? From where to where?

A. Just like they were cutting down these trees and all the brush and stuff? Well, we hauled it and stacked it up and put it to fire, see. Then during the same time I used my truck on a hard road coming in ... you don't remember, but it's a road that comes from this way, coming from that direction there, and goes on this way up to town. Right there at the [Illinois State] police station way out there, you know, then the other road goes that way on that . . If you remember, the police station splits the two roads. Well, I helped put in one of those hard roads.

Q. Oh, is that right? You're talking about out on the south end of town?

A. Yes, out there by the lake.

Q. I see. You helped put in . Albert Harris 38

A. Yes, one of those hardroads, using my truck, see. I drove my truck there.

Q. Did you have a crew working?

A. No, I only had one fellow. He and I did that out there.

Q. I mean, you say you helped put in . .

A. You see, in other words, this company was using my truck, see. And I was the driver of my truck, see. They did everything. We just . . .

Q. What was the name of the company you were working for?

A. I forget who put that road in there now. I don't know whether it was Construction Company or not. I forgot; it's been quite a while.

Q. How long did they ...

A. I worked out there about a month using my truck; extra, for about a month.

Q. So you were working there and you had quit the laundry by then.

A. Yes. I had quit the laundry.

Q. And you continued your commercial hauling?

A. Yes, that's right, continued my commercial hauling with garbage and also with anything. When I went in the garbage business, I hauled anything. It wasn't nothing--! didn't care anything about whether it was clean or dirty. I even cleaned outdoor toilets and things.

Q. Is that right?

A. Yes, anything. Then by 1937, that's when I was really sailing, in four or five years.

Q. Did you have some big companies that you hauled for?

A. Yes, I hauled for Jackman-Bodie. That's that big place right there between Washington and Jefferson near Eighteenth Street, that big building there.

Q. What did they do?

A. Wholesale. Groceries and things. I fed many a family through those people, Reverend. I've seen the time that I've come home, my Albert Harris 39 basement looked like a grocery store. And I've seen the time when I'd come home that I'd give canned corn--oh, everything, to people all up and down Lincoln Avenue over there. Get so much stuff I couldn't ... just go to waste. And then another big company I hauled was the Piggly-\Hggly, then; they call them the Eisner's now, see. But it was the Piggly-Wiggly. Oh, yes, then another was the Star Markets. Used to be little individual markets all scattered throughout town,

Q. You mean grocery stores?

A. Yes. I hauled the garbage. There was about ten or twelve Star Markets here in Springfield. [George M.] Oliver, who used to be one of our commissioners, he had one, and he went broke. He just got under the wire because he and his wife fell out, and he was just lucky that he got to be commissioner because he was broke then. Then he got to be [Public Property] commissioner.

Q. Now, is there any other company . ?

A. Company I hauled for? Yes. Let me see, there was somebody else I was ••.

Q. Didn't you haul for Franklin Life [Insurance Company]?

A. Oh, yes, yes, for twenty-five years. Franklin Life.

Q. What was working for them like?

A. Paper, hauling their paper. Yes, I hauled their paper.

Q. You worked for them for twenty-five years?

A. Yes.

Q. That's the person you worked for the longest?

A. They're the longest that I worked for. Yes.

Q. Were you able to, by working for them, derive any benefits for your business?

A. Yes, yes, because that paper, sometime I'd make as much off of that paper as I would what they paid me. They paid me, I think I was getting around a couple hundred dollars a month to haul their paper, and I've seen the time that their paper, when I'd take it to the junkyard to sell • • . . I remember one time there in two straight days I made a hundred and some odd dollars. Two days straight, a hundred dollars each day for just hauling their paper.

Q. Did you talk to any of them as far as any tips on your business Albert Harris 40 and so forth?

A. No, no.

Q. Did you carry insurance with them?

A. No, never carried insurance from them.

Q. Hauling, like, for Franklin Life, about what was your schedule like?

A. Oh, I'd get there around 7:30 in the morning and was done at about • 10:00 or 10:30 a.,.

END OF TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE

Q. You said that at one time you picked up for· Twenty-one. Did they have that many stores in town?

A. Yes. I got them all. Twenty-one stores they had at one time. They had one there on Monroe Street between Fourth and Fifth, had one on Fifth and Lawrence down there from Franklin Life, they had another one on Fifth Street. Oh, they had them scattered throughout the town. And I'll tell you when I was doing that, that was just before World War II started.

Q. Just now I think Eisner's have about six stores in town. Have they consolidated some of them and closed some of them?

A. Yes, yes. Because you see, Eisner's out here on South MacArthur, there used to be two of them out there. Now it's one of them out there.

Q. At that time they were more or less a neighborhood store, whereas today they are supermarkets?

A. Yes, yes.

Q. Is there any other company that you worked for in hauling?

A. Let's see. Jackman-Bodie . . . I didn't haul for them very long. There was somebody else. Oh, well, it wasn't a company, but I think he was the longest independent that I ever worked for. I think it was. It was the Mel-0-Cream Donut Shop. The Mel-0-Cream Donut Shop, because when he first opened up on Jefferson Street, West Jefferson Street, I started picking up his garbage. And I said to myself then, I said, "Oh, he'll be here about a week" just like that. He was there for forty-some years until they started tearing down Jefferson Street there. Now he's out on Laurel Street and he's got one up here on North Grand Avenue.