NATIONAL ENERGY BOARD OFFICE NATIONAL DE L’ÉNERGIE
Hearing Order / Ordonnance d'audience GHW-002-2018
Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission (Westcoast) T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications
Westcoast Energy Inc., exploitée sous la dénomination sociale Spectra Energy Transmission (« Westcoast ») Demandes visant des stations de compression sur T-Sud en 2018
VOLUME 1
Hearing held at L’audience tenue à
The Lodge Event Centre 1262 Maple Heights Road Quesnel, British Columbia
May 22, 2019 Le 22 mai 2019
International Reporting Inc. Ottawa, Ontario (613) 748-6043
© Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada 2019 © Sa Majesté du Chef du Canada 2019 as represented by the National Energy Board représentée par l’Office national de l’énergie
This publication is the recorded verbatim transcript Cette publication est un compte rendu textuel des and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et official languages, depending on the languages transcrite dans l’une ou l’autre des deux langues spoken by the participant at the public hearing. officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l’audience publique.
Printed in Canada Imprimé au Canada
HEARING ORDER/ORDONNANCE D’AUDIENCE GHW-002-2018
IN THE MATTER OF NOVA Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission (Westcoast) T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications
HEARING LOCATION/LIEU DE L’AUDIENCE
Hearing held in Quesnel, British Columbia, Wednesday, May 22, 2019 Audience tenue à Quesnel (Colombie-Britannique), mercredi, le 22 mai 2019
BOARD PANEL/COMITÉ D'AUDIENCE DE L'OFFICE
Myrray Lytle Chairman/Président
Roland George Member/Membre
Damien Côté Member/Membre
Transcript GHW-002-2018
APPEARANCES/COMPARUTIONS (i)
Applicant/Demandeur
Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission - Ms. Diana Audino - Mr. Robert Bourne
Intervenors/Intervenants
Papaschase First Nation - Mr. Clayton Cunningham - Chief Calvin Bruneau
Soda Creek Indian Band (Xatśūll First Nation) - Chief Sheri Sellars - Ms. Penny Phillips - Ms. Edna Boston - Ms. Ada Phillips - Mr. Scott Scholefield - Mr. Wayne Sellars - Mr. Jim Michel - Ms. Sally Sellars - Ms. Alice Vogler - Ms. Barb Dixon - Mr. Reg Michel - Mr. John Phillips
Williams Lake Indian Band (T'exelc) - Ms. Whitney Spearing - Ms. Brittany Cleminson - Chief Ann Louie - Elder Virginia Gilbert - Elder Willie Alphonse Sr. - Elder Jean William
National Energy Board/Office national de l’énergie - Ms. Jana Nicholson
Transcript GHW-002-2018
TABLE OF CONTENTS/TABLE DES MATIÈRES (i)
Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe
Opening remarks by the Chairman 1
(Soda Creek Indian Band (Xatśūll First Nation) Chief Sheri Sellars Ms. Penny Phillips
- Oral Indigenous Knowledge presentation 48
Opening remarks by the Chairman 155
Williams Lake Indian Band Ms. Whitney Spearing Ms. Brittany Cleminson Chief Ann Louie Elder Virginia Gilbert Elder Willie Alphonse Sr. Elder Jean William
- Oral Indigenous Knowledge presentation 221
Opening remarks by the Chairman 391
Papaschase Cree Nation Chief Calvin Bruneau
- Oral Indigenous Knowledge presentation 427
Transcript GHW-002-2018
LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE DES PIÈCES
No. Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe
Transcript GHW-002-2018
UNDERTAKINGS/ENGAGEMENTS
No. Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman --- Upon commencing at 9:34 a.m./L’audience débute à 9h34
1. THE CHAIRMAN: Weyt-kp. Good morning; hello. Welcome, everyone, to Quesnel this May 22nd for the oral Indigenous knowledge portion of National Energy Board’s GHW-002-2018 hearing -- and that’s the last time I’m going to say that -- concerning Westcoast Energy Inc., doing business as Spectra Energy Transmission for Westcoast’s T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications.
2. So I’ll start by saying, as a sign of respect, the National Energy Board would like to acknowledge that we’re gathered here today on the traditional territory of First Nations who had hoped to be here but are not going to be able to participate in the hearing. For this reason, we want to thank the Lhtako, Nazko, Lhoozk’us, ?Esdilagh, and Lheidli T’enneh Nations for offering this hospitality.
3. The Board recognizes that the sharing of traditional history and knowledge is an honour bestowed on us from First Nations, and we’re grateful to be here. Thank you very much. Together, we hope to move the ball forward a little bit towards reconciliation.
4. Today we are going to hear from the Xatśūll First Nation, the T’exelc First Nation, and the Papaschase Indian Band. Now, this morning, first off, we’re going to hear from the Xatśūll First Nation, who I understand will open in a prayer.
5. Is that correct?
6. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Yes.
7. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And then after the prayer, I’ll open the session with some opening remarks.
--- (Opening prayer)
8. THE CHAIRMAN: I’m told that in your language we say “Thank you” by saying “kukwstsétselp”. If I get that pronunciation wrong, please correct me. Well, we thank you very much for that opening prayer.
9. And for the record, for those of you from Xatśūll that are speaking or interpreting today, we consider the prayer to be your affirmation that the
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman information you’re presenting is accurate and truthful to the best of your knowledge and belief.
10. My name is Murray Lytle, and I am the Chair of this Panel. My fellow Panel Members are, to my right, Mr. Roland George and, to my left, Mr. Damien Côté.
11. Ms. Edith Pritchard, our Regulatory Officer, will now address a few housekeeping comments and issues before we get started.
12. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13. Good morning. In the event that we hear a building evacuation tone, or if there is an emergency -- so this is just in case there is -- please exit the hearing room through the same doors you came in by. And once outside the building, please proceed to the Muster Point, which is in the front parking lot in the south corner of the property, and take a roll call of your group so that we make sure that everybody has evacuated safely. If someone is not accounted for, please draw it to the attention of our hearing manager, Suzanne Brown, who is there.
14. And for security reasons, please do not leave bags or personal belongings unattended in the hearing room. If you have any concerns regarding safety, please speak to any Board member. We can be recognized by the tags that we have here.
15. So the men’s and ladies’ washrooms are just over here.
16. We also have Wi-Fi available if you’d like. And the password is on the blackboard just behind the bar there. I don’t want to say it out loud, but it’s on the board there if you need it, okay?
17. So today in the Panel we have the following Board staff here with us: we have, as I mentioned, Suzanne Brown, our Hearing Manager; Monika McPeake, behind me here, is our IT support. We have Jana Nicholson, who is our legal counsel; and then also with me there is Janet Foreman, who is another Regulatory Officer. And the court reporter here beside me is Dale Waterman.
18. And as I mentioned, Board staff, we are wearing these tags for easy identification. Please feel free to approach any of us if you have general questions. If you have process-related questions, you can speak to John Parkins,
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman who was here to greet you at the door when you signed in this morning. If you have any preliminary matters they wish to raise, they should also be brought up with -- to Mr. Parkins. And preliminary matters, if any, will usually be handled at the beginning of each session, each of the three sessions today.
19. The oral Indigenous knowledge shared here today will be transcribed and will form part of the hearing record. Electronic transcripts of the proceedings will be made available on the National Energy Board’s website at the end of each hearing day, under the T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications. If you have any difficulty finding those, that link, just email me and I’ll be able to help out.
20. A live stream audio is also being broadcast today via the NEB’s website and we welcome those who are listening in today.
21. We request that everyone in attendance turn off or mute your mobile phones for the duration of this session. Just a little reminder, as they can be quite disruptive.
22. Due to the fact that we are live streaming and we need to have an accurate transcription of today’s proceedings, we would appreciate if speakers could please talk slowly and clearly at all times. As well, speaking closer into the mic works better than further away.
23. Today, we intend to sit from now until probably 9:00 o’clock tonight. Times might vary. And we will break for lunch possibly around noon, reconvening at 1:30 pm. We’ll have a midmorning break and we’ll have an afternoon break of up to 30 minutes each. And then we have a supper break from 4:00 -- 4:30, rather. We will try to take breaks at natural pauses in today’s proceedings. And if you do need a break at any time, just don’t hesitate to indicate that to the Panel.
24. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Ms. Pritchard.
26. Before we start hearing from the Xatśūll First Nation, I can ask for a few introductions so we know who is in the room today.
27. And I note that your panel is not sitting near the microphones. Just
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman maybe explain how this is going to -- you’ll be calling people forward when they’re speaking? Or how will we do this? In order to get the evidence onto the record, we need people to talk into a microphone.
28. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Okay.
29. THE CHAIRMAN: So if you want to move people forward, that’s fine.
30. Okay. Before we start, I’ll have a few more comments.
31. Perhaps we’ll do the introductions, I guess, as each person comes forward. And that way we’ll get through this.
32. So I invite the Elders and knowledge keepers presenting to please introduce themselves when they start. And we’d appreciate if you can tell us what your role is, whether you’re an Elder or a knowledge keeper so that we can identify you in the correct and respectful way. And maybe even share a bit of brief background about yourself.
33. Next, I invite Westcoast’s representatives who are here today to please identify themselves and indicate their roles in this hearing.
34. MS. AUDINO: Good morning, Mr. Chair and Members of the Panel, Board staff, and to the members and Elders of Xatśūll First Nation.
35. My name is Diana Audino. And with me today is Robert Bourne. And we represent the applicant, Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission.
36. We do not have any preliminary matters. Thank you.
37. THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any other Intervenors present that wish to be identified?
38. Seeing none, I think we’ll move on. Thank you. Kwséltkten.
39. As oral Indigenous knowledge is evidence that will be considered by the Board in the assessment of this project, the Board sees that is procedurally fair to allow Westcoast, other Intervenors and the Board be provided the opportunity
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge to ask questions of the Elders and knowledge keepers on that evidence. If there are questions, the Elders or knowledge keepers can choose at that time whether they wish to answer questions orally or subsequently in writing.
40. If Elders or knowledge keepers prefer to receive and answer questions in writing, the Party asking the questions will have one day to file the written questions, and witnesses will have one week to file his or her written responses.
41. And maybe as we -- one of the things you can do when you introduce yourselves is let us know whether you prefer the questions orally or in written.
42. Now, will any of the Elders or knowledge keepers be using visual aids this morning?
43. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: No.
44. THE CHAIRMAN: No? Okay.
45. And finally, are there any preliminary matters before we begin? I think we heard no?
46. Thank you then. Kwséltkten. We are now ready to begin the sharing of oral Indigenous knowledge.
47. And I turn it over to you.
SHERI SELLARS: Affirmed PENNY PHILLIPS: Affirmed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR XATŚŪLL FIRST NATION:
48. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Good morning. I’m Chief Sheri Sellars from the Xatśūll First Nation.
49. Well, I’ve lived in Soda Creek since I was the age of six. So I’ve been there for quite some time.
50. We have, as what I recall from my great grandmother, that the Spectra line has been there for years. My great-grandmother, Annie Sellars, at the time, I
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge just remember her telling us as children that, “I don’t know why they need to put that big thing down in the ground.” That’s all I remember as a child.
51. We’ve had -- and I don’t -- I -- just hearing from Elders in the past, I don’t think there was any real consultation in regards to how that pipeline got into going through our reserve. And it takes a big chunk of our reserve in that one area where we cannot use that land as what was usually use everything else with.
52. It’s gotten better since there was an expansion done on the pipeline just in our -- so many lakes there, but there’s still the idea that we don’t -- we can’t use the land as we would usually anticipate.
53. Our reserve is very small. Our aspirations of building housing and everything else isn’t fully vested in yet. And we hope to get there, but at the same time, there’s a lot of places that we cannot build because of the line, which we anticipated at one point was because we did ask, “Can we put housing along that? Can we do houses along that?”
54. I guess the other part of it is as well, is our safety in our community. It’s in a real core part of our community. It’s not even -- we don’t understand the ramifications, but unfortunately seeing what happened in Prince George, that’s really opened our eyes to it all.
55. There’s not -- the liaison process is getting better; I won’t say it’s terrible, but it’s getting better.
56. We need to understand how that impacts us in full and how the process of emergency is. And I’m going to use the example of Wildfire 2017 for us, was huge for us in our community. It took a corner of our community, which we had, at that time, a full, full project going on and opened up. The lines were open. That was one of our things that -- which we got told that it’s fine. But at the same time, when we were going through that wildfire process on our evacuation alert and then it went for full evacuation, and then we agreed to bring our members back after 30-plus days. And it took us probably seven of those days to get the people back into the community. My time was spent on dealing with the line of them going back to work, of them -- right away, once the alert got lifted, they were back to work.
57. So I think that process of safety, for us, was huge. We spoke with Wildfire at the time, up at the fire centre, and our council all got talked to about
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge what it means to come back into our community at that time. As anybody is aware that we were fighting the fire in our corridor as well, on our Soda Creek Band IR #2.
58. So we managed that fire, but at the same time, we were recommended that when we come back to the community with all our people, that we were going to be in a very high alert situation. But we were having so many calls of -- well, I was, at the time, as council, getting so many calls of my members, they want to come home.
59. And there were so many different things that it was just chaos for us. And then for us to finally bring our people home and for our leadership to sit on the phones, setting meetings, just because they wanted to do -- they didn’t come back into our project, because we wouldn’t allow them to come into our project. But they went off to the side of our -- on Mountain House Road, the big station on the side, and they started work. So that was troublesome for all of us.
60. I was on a high place of anxiety, of worrying about fires again. It was just crazy. So I think that process of us trying to figure out how this is going to work and how these pipelines are here, how the emergency process is, how it’s going to liaison between us, and Spectra and Westcoast. I worry about that for our community because we have two houses that sit right on the line. We have two businesses sit right on the line. And the devastation that happened in Prince George and how far that spanned out, it’s going to deteriorate some of these houses all around.
61. Our neighbours rely on us to ask about questions. When we’d run through the project, they were saying, “How are you guys doing?” And we said, “Oh, we’re doing good.” But when it was the fire time, they were relying on us to help them feel safe back in the community and the surrounding area.
62. So I think there’s a lot behind this project and how the lines go through, consultation with us. It’s a long way to go yet, I feel, you know, as one of the leaders.
63. We see a lot of upgrades going to be coming, you know, and it’s all in our traditional territory still. We have a line that’s just adjacent to Soda Creek IR #1. It’s still in the vicinity of us, so we have it all through in our territory. So I’m worried about the impacts of the land as well. What’s that going to do to all our land? We rely on that land. We rely on going out there to do our berry picking.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge We rely on our medicines that we go out there to get. We rely on all of that. You know, I’m very modern, myself, but I’m learning from elders today in regard to what that means, to go out and gather these things and change -- go back to our traditional cultural ways, because western medicine isn’t working for a lot of us anymore.
64. So I think, for us, impact-wise, of all the lines, of all the different transition changes that are happening, I think we need to really take a look at what is impacting us. And it comes back to the land. It comes back to the wildlife. They’re not there anymore. I remember my dad just saying, “I could go out a couple of hours away from the communities and be able to hunt.” That’s not the case anymore. He goes out for hours and hours to find something. You know, so the game is moving farther back.
65. So I think those impacts are really hitting us hard in different ways. I’m not saying it’s all due to the line, but they all come together, all the different impacts, from forestry, mining, pipelines. They all impact together, so I think if we can start trying to figure out some of this process, it would be great.
66. But I think the biggest thing is I worry about our safety in our community. That line is right through our community, and it’s huge. There’s a lot of fuel going through that line, and I know there is. For me, it’s just taking a real good look at it and how that process is going to come and unfold in front of us.
67. Thank you.
68. THE CHAIRMAN: Chief Sellars, how would you like to handle questions? Would you prefer that we wait to the end of everybody?
69. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: I can do questions, like, after each other. I think that would work a little better, so it stays fresh in people’s minds.
70. THE CHAIRMAN: Westcoast, are you okay with that?
71. MR. BOURNE: Westcoast doesn’t have any questions at this time.
72. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, I’m just going to confer with my colleagues for a minute.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge --- (A short pause/Courte pause)
73. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your patience. My colleague has a question.
74. MEMBER GEORGE: I just have one question. Basically, can you currently practise your traditions along the pipeline right-of-way?
75. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Currently practise our traditions? No. It’s all opened up. Like, all the trees and everything is all -- it’s open there, so we won’t. They’re always clearing and cleaning those lines all along there as well.
76. MEMBER GEORGE: Thank you. That was my only question.
77. THE CHAIRMAN: We’re ready for your next witness.
78. MS. PENNY PHILLIPS: Good morning, everybody. I’m not used to talking through this thing, so I’m going to step aside.
79. Good morning, everybody. I'm Penny Phillips, and I'm a band member from the Soda Creek First Nation. And this is I would say 62 years in one place. And I look around at my stomping grounds, I call them. I'm a berry picker and I'm a provider.
80. It's a shame. It's a real shame. I can't go out. The last year I got stopped by the RCMP in our property. I was accused of disturbing the peace when I'm picking berries on our hunting grounds, right on our land where our old people used to go every year, and I go every year. I provide for my great- grandchildren. I provide for my grandchildren and myself. So I'm very kind of insulted, I guess the word is. I had to distinctly look at the RCMP in the face and say, "Here's my store room. Look in there. This is what I'm doing."
81. And I don't think there's a year out of my life that I -- I go to my band when I'm ready to go out to provide, and I let a -- somebody know that I'm not going to be here for five months. My time's coming up in two weeks. I'm going out there. That's my job.
82. But that pipeline has put a really bitter feeling on me because there's two gates up, giraffe gates, private property. Oh, man. How do you feel?
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 83. You know, it's just a bit too much for me. Well, I used to go out with my grandparents by wagon, horse and wagon, and town to town or whatever, reserve to reserve, just to do stuff. And now it's like, holy man, I'm scared to breathe. You know, I'm getting questioned about my own back yard, you know, and I take a lot of respect in what I have today.
84. When I see my -- not my land, part of it, I grew up in the Deep Creek area as a child, and to see, and to worry every day am I going to see my aunt, am I going to see my brother today? Dammit, I'm happy today to be alive. I am. I'm so happy, because there's a majority of my band members -- not my band members, our band members on one reserve there. Man alive, there's nothing left there for us, and we used to shoot a deer right in our yard, and now we got to go.
85. Now, the forest fires, two years ago. Last year was my best year. I never had a nightmare out in the woods. I've never been attacked by a bear. I've never been rushed by a moose, never been trampled by deer, but dammit, when people are rooting and digging up and not really saying, you know, this is what's happening, our lives are at -- on the line.
86. I'm happy every day, every second. I'm very pleased, and it's scary to see your -- I'm so excited in the morning, five o'clock, wonder who's up having coffee? I mean, you know, I do like my own role call in my family because it is a very scary thing. And there's very few, very few now, I'd say, that go out and do what I do. I go out in the woods. I don't go get lost, but, I mean, I go out there and I go on my hands and knees to make sure I get my supper today. I got to eat, not you.
87. It's very heartbreaking when my great-grandchildren come and ask me a question, and I say no now. "We can't go there no more. The pipeline's there." We used to go past Nenqayni, the treatment centre, down in there. There used to be raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, blueberries. Now I don't go there. I'm scared, because I don't know who's who. You know, this pipeline is controlling my people, and I'm scared. I'm devastated.
88. I'm happy when I see my people today. I'm not saying you're not my people. We all have the same blood, but, I mean, the people that I'm very dearly in love with. If anything happens to my children or my great-grandchildren, man alive, what happened in Prince George. Take it in consideration of our lives.
89. And I would -- before I close, I sincerely would like to thank our
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge Elders that have come here today. It took a lot for me to say that I'm going to speak, but I want my great-grandchildren to see my traditional background and what I do.
90. I had the opportunity in my life to have my grandparents. Now I don't. I don't have no mom and daddy. I have my grandparents. They're gone. I have my people. They're here. I love them.
91. And with that, I'd like to thank whoever made the tobacco offering this morning. It touched my heart, and whoever put it together, thank you. And I'd like to acknowledge all of you for playing a part of my sobriety today, because it's a test for me to speak.
92. I deal with a lot of youth in my life, and kind of brushed the youth over there. I work with the youth. On the other hand, I have experience from my grandparents and great-grandparents. Now the law is controlling me. I like the law. It took me a long time to say I like you, but in reality, when it comes to the crunch, it's very, very sentimental stuff we're dealing with, not just our lives, but other people's lives. It really hurts me in my heart and in my thinking right now.
93. I've been away from my band for a few days. I came home last night. You should see where I was. There's gates, giraffe gates locked up. I can't go through on our property that was given to us by a family member. We're clearing so we can provide for the summer and the winter.
94. I don't think myself I'd get over the fire. That's here with me every day. I don't think I'll get over how much I've worked hard to be where I'm at today, to be sincere towards my band members. You know, they're very valuable. They know a lot. Some know more than me. I can do things that you can't do. I mean, I can walk a row, but you can't pull it. You know, stuff like that, but, I mean, there's different talents I have.
95. And another thing too that -- to promote myself, to work on myself, to be -- to learn more about where I have to grow up and be a nice role model to whoever, and that most accountable person today is myself.
96. So I'd like to thank each and every one of you for being here for me today, because it's hard work for me to come in these doors. It's really hard work. It's a lot of concentrating. I went to school the last couple years to get my education. I'm proud, yes. I finished. Now I’ve gotten another certificate I’m
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge pretty proud of because I didn’t know I had that much knowledge within myself.
97. And what I was taught through my family, I plan to pass it on over to my family of what knowledge I can spend with them. I’m not guaranteeing everything, but most of all it is very devastating and it’s very overwhelming when you concentrate how many other people are involved on this pipeline? How many other people?
98. And we’re kind of behind. I was just talking briefly before the meeting. Sometime ago I was young, but I remember when my grandmother, Annie Sellars, when my grandmother -- pardon me, she’s in happy hunting grounds right now. She’s enjoying herself.
99. There was a time when we had to sit down. It was, like, a family thing, to sit down for a minute and to have her speak up and tell us, you know, “This is what’s going on.”
100. And to see the things that are happening within the community, it’s really hard. It’s really frustrating. But on another hand, I can’t stop anything.
101. And I’m really thoroughly looking at the hunting grounds where I’ve been the last four or five days. I’m not done yet because of a fire. There’s no clean up after fire. Out in the bushes, nobody cleans up on our property, or in the other properties.
102. I really don’t have too much to say other than I just -- if I could reach out, I’d take the pipeline out. But I can’t.
103. And I’m very thankful for myself to be able to say what I said this morning, because it’s harsh words. Like, it’s hard words to come out of me, to say, “Somebody’s taking my land away. Somebody’s destroying it.”
104. And if I did it, I would be in jail. Or if I did it, I would be in the river or something. I don’t know. But it’s frightening.
105. My term coming up. Ever season I go to my Band office and I make sure I tell, “I’m going to be away.” You know, I do my thing out there. But it’s work. And to see no berries out there this year in the few spots where I went for my huckleberries, there’s nothing, no blooms, nothing. You know, it’s a disaster.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 106. So I’d just like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak and I wish each and everyone of you a good day. Thank you for my time.
107. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Phillips. And we do recognize that it takes some courage to enter a situation like this. And we thank you for the courage.
108. Would you be open to questions now or later? Orally or in writing?
109. MS. PENNY PHILLIPS: I don’t know. I’m okay.
110. THE CHAIRMAN: You’re okay?
111. MS. PENNY PHILLIPS: Yeah.
112. THE CHAIRMAN: Westcoast, do you have any questions?
113. MR. BOURNE: Yes, thank you for your words. We don’t have any questions at this time.
114. MEMBER GEORGE: Ms. Phillips, I just have one question.
115. I think you said you used an example that you encountered, I think you said eight locked gates and you were -- and another occasion you were stopped on your traditional lands.
116. To your knowledge, has the pipeline company stopped you when you are berry picking or providing for your family?
117. MS. PENNY PHILLIPS: No. At the time when -- oh, sorry, I don’t know how to run this thing.
118. At the time when I got -- when the RCMP came to my house, and this was, like, about 5:30 in the afternoon and it was an RCMP from the Williams Lake Detachment. It wasn’t work.
119. That was when I told the RCMP I can show you my store room. I can ask whoever was with me. I did not go over that fence.
120. I mean -- but I mean, I’m just saying that on your own -- your own --
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge like, the traditional berry picking area and you get stopped, well how do you feel? Or do you reach out to?
121. You know, at that time, I was blonde. You know, my hair was blonde.
122. But it’s an insult.
123. And I do it every (inaudible). I live off the land. There’s no moose, there’s no deer this year. Last year too. We had a very slim, slim, slim. I mean, we were -- the dogs were looking pretty good, you know, compared to the wildlife we used to get. And that’s hard when you’re a provider. You know, you don’t know which way you’re going tomorrow. I mean, you know what I’m saying, which part of the woods you go in tomorrow. Well, we’re going to lie to you all. You know what I mean?
124. But it’s really hard when you get stopped. What do you say? And you do -- I mean, pardon not you, but I do it every year. It’s natural for me to go out and do what I do, berry picking, automatic, dry berries, can berries.
125. But to have that happen to you, it’s not a nice feeling.
126. MEMBER GEORGE: Thank you.
127. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you once again, Ms. Phillips, for your testimony and for your courage.
128. MS. PENNY PHILLIPS: Thank you.
129. THE CHAIRMAN: Chief Sellars, we’re ready for the next person.
130. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: No, I think that’s it.
131. THE CHAIRMAN: Chief Sellars, do you have anything more that you’d like to add? Or should we close this off with a prayer or something? It’s your call.
132. Tell you what, why don’t we take a five-minute break?
133. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Yes, please.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 134. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And then we’ll come back at say 25 past the hour.
135. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Okay.
136. THE CHAIRMAN: A little bit more than five minutes.
--- Upon recessing at 10:17 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 10h17 --- Upon resuming at 1:34 a.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h34
SHERI SELLARS: Resumed PENNY PHILLIPS: Resumed
137. THE CHAIRMAN: Chief Sellars, I understand that -- well, why don’t I give you the opportunity to tell us what you’ve discussed.
138. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Okay. I think right now we’ve discussed that we would like the Williams Lake Band to go ahead so my members can see how the process really looks like. As well, I would like to make a couple of closing remarks before we move on to the next process.
139. THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Go ahead.
140. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Okay. So back when we started this Spectra project on the reserve, at that time I was an interim executive assistant of the Chief and Council minute-taking.
141. So I recall in a meeting we had Spectra come in. We were doing the project. It was prior to -- we had asked -- our counsel at that time asked many times of having full -- how did they put it? They wanted to have so much time ahead to prepare for that project. But at the same time, they said, “For this project to move ahead, what is this really about? Is it because it wants more fuel to go through their lines or is it because of the integrity of the pipelines?”
142. So we were told back then it was the integrity of the pipelines then. So now for us to be sitting here hearing of -- there’s more fuel possibly going to go through those lines now. And I remember Chief Bev Sellars at the time asking that many times in the minutes, because I was the minute-taker at the time.
143. So I think for us, it just doesn’t lay good with us, as Soda Creek,
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Soda Creek Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge because when we went forward with the project, it was because we were looking at the integrity of the lines.
144. That’s it.
145. THE CHAIRMAN: My understanding is that you may come back, so can I call this -- we’ll declare a bit of a hiatus in the giving of you oral traditional evidence, and we’ll revisit this later on?
146. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Okay.
147. THE CHAIRMAN: So we’ll go to the next group. And I’m very pleased that you’re going to stay and observe because it seems like this is a fairly new process to you.
148. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Yes.
149. THE CHAIRMAN: Before I do, what we’re going to do is we’ll take about a 15-minute break and allow the other group to get themselves established and set up.
150. There’s a few things that I think maybe need to be said at this point, and that is that there are other ancient civilizations -- have gone through issues where different world views are present in the same room, if I can use that kind of terminology. And one of these ancient civilizations used a metaphor of building a road, where they said the two groups have to build a road that’s smooth, straight, and flat in order than progress can be made, that nobody is putting up obstacles in the road, obstacles to progress. And in the context of reconciliation, that’s really part of what this is all about, as well as gaining a deeper understanding of your traditions as a people group.
151. So I guess in saying that, we’re very pleased that you’ve come. We recognize that it takes courage to take a step forward, and so we look forward to maybe hearing from you a little bit later on.
152. So with that, let’s take a 15-minute break, and then we’ll start with the next group.
153. CHIEF SHERI SELLARS: Thank you.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman
154. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
--- Upon recessing at 10:37 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 10h37 --- Upon resuming at 10:59 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h59
155. THE CHAIRMAN: I’m always loath to break in on good conversations, but we do have some work to do.
156. Weyt-kp. Welcome, everybody, again, to Quesnel this May 22nd for the oral Indigenous knowledge portion of the National Energy Board’s GHW- 002-2018 hearing concerning Westcoast Energy Inc. doing business as Spectra Energy Transmission for Westcoast’s T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications.
157. As a sign of respect, the National Energy Board would like to acknowledge that we are gathered here today on the traditional territory of first nations who were hoping to participate but can’t. For this reason, we thank the Lhtako, the Nazko, the Lhoozk’us, the Esdilagh, and the Lheidli T’enneh Nations for offering this hospitality to us all. 158. The Board recognizes that the sharing of oral traditional history and knowledge is an honour bestowed upon us by you people, and we’re grateful that you’re here.
159. Today we are going to hear from the T’exelc First Nation -- we have already heard from the Xatśūll First Nation -- and the Papaschase Indian Band. And this morning, we’re going to hear now from the T’exelc First Nation.
160. I am told that you will start with a prayer. We turn it over to you.
--- (Opening prayer)
161. THE CHAIRMAN: Kukwstsétsemc. Thank you very much for that opening prayer.
162. Please let the record show, for those of you from tables that are speaking or interpreting today, that we consider this prayer to be your affirmation that the information you’re presenting is accurate and truthful to the best of your knowledge and belief.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman 163. My name is Murray Lytle, and I’m the Chair of this Panel. My fellow Panel Members are, to my right, Mr. Roland George and, to my left, Mr. Damien Côté. Ms. Edith Pritchard, our Regulatory Officer, will now address a few housekeeping issues before we get started.
164. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
165. Just for some emergency information in case something does happen, in the event that we do hear a building evacuation tone, or if there’s an emergency, please exit the hearing room the way you came in, out into the parking lot, and proceed to the Muster Point, which will be in the front of the parking lot on the south side. And take a roll call of your group to make sure that everybody has evacuated. And if somebody is not accounted for, please draw it to the attention of our hearing manager, who is Suzanne Brown.
166. For security reasons, please do not leave bags or personal items unattended in the hearing room here. If you have concerns regarding -- I’ll try that again -- please speak to any of the Board staff members. You can recognize us because we have the gold pins on our lapels.
167. For the men’s and ladies’ washrooms, they are on the side here.
168. And we have Wi-Fi available if you need it. The password is on the board behind the bar.
169. Today, in addition to the Panel, we have the following Board staff here with us. As I mentioned, Suzanne Brown is our Hearing Manager. Monika McPeake, who is sitting behind me, is our IT support. We have Jana Nicholson as our legal counsel. And also Janet Foreman as another Regulatory Officer. In addition to Joanne McDonald, who is our socioeconomic specialist.
170. As I mentioned, Board staff, we are wearing these gold pins. Please feel free to approach any of us if you have general questions. If you have process-related questions, please speak with our process advisor, John Parkins. Some of you have already met him.
171. If participants have any preliminary matter that they wish to raise, they should also bring them up with Mr. Parkins. Preliminary matters, if there are any, will be handled usually at the beginning of each session.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman 172. The oral Indigenous knowledge shared here today will be transcribed and will form part of the hearing record. Electronic transcripts of the proceedings will be made available on the National Energy Board website at the end of each hearing day under the T-South 2018 Compressor Station Application’s homepage, which you can find following the website links. If you have difficulty finding them, you can email me and I’ll help you.
173. A live audio stream of the hearing is being broadcast via the NEB’s website. We welcome those who are listening in today.
174. We request that everyone in attendance turn off or mute your phones for the duration of this session, as they can be a bit disruptive.
175. Due to the fact that we are live streaming, we need to have an accurate record or an accurate transcription of today’s proceedings, and we would appreciate if speakers could please talk slowly and clearly at all times. And you press the button to make the microphone light up while you’re speaking. As well, speaking closer and directly into the microphone works better than farther away.
176. Today we began early. We will sit approximately until nine o’clock tonight. Times may vary. And we’ll break for lunch around noon until 1:30 p.m. And we also will have some breaks in between. And we have a supper break from 4:30 until 6:00 p.m. And we’ll try to make these breaks as natural within today’s proceedings -- as natural pauses. And if you do need a break, don’t hesitate to indicate that to the Panel at any time.
177. Thank you.
178. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Pritchard.
179. Before we start hearing from T'exelc First Nation, I’ll first ask for a few introductions to know who is in the room today. And I therefore invite the Elders and knowledge keepers to please give a brief introduction of yourself, who you are, and what you’ll be -- in what context you’ll be representing your evidence today.
180. MS. SPEARING: Good morning. My name is Whitney Spearing. I’m a Natural Resources Coordinator for the Williams Lake Indian Band.
181. I’ve brought with me my colleague, Brittany Cleminson. As well
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman she’s a Natural Resources Officer for WLIB.
182. As the WLIB maintains a traditional knowledge and occupancy database, essentially what we did was overlaid the compressor station application with a database and sort of picked from the knowledge keepers who had traditional use information from that area.
183. So I will let everybody introduce themselves. Yeah.
184. ELDER VIRGINIA GILBERT: Good morning again. My name is Virginia Gilbert from the Williams Lake Indian Band. Kwséltkten. And I’m an Elder there. I’m just glad I’m here. Thank you.
185. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: (Speaking in Native language).
186. My name is Ann Louie. I just wanted to point out that my first name has no E on there for correct spelling.
187. It’s an honour to be here today to give testimony to this case. I’ve had some background information into it. And I just want to take this opportunity as well to thank the Carrier Nation for allowing us to do business here in their community.
188. Thank you very much.
189. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: (Speaking in Native language) Jean William (Speaking in Native language) Carrier people (Speaking in Native language).
190. I’m really honoured to be here. My name is Jean William and I’m from T'exelc. I’m one of the recognized knowledge keepers and fluent speakers of Williams Lake Indian Band. And I’m just honoured to be here in Carrier Nation.
191. (Speaking in Native language) all my relations.
192. ELDER WILLIE ALPHONSE SR.: I’m Willie Alphonse Sr. from the Williams Lake Indian Band, one of the Elders there.
193. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you all very much.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman
194. Now I invite Westcoast’s representatives who are here today to introduce themselves and also indicate your roles in the hearing.
195. MS. AUDINO: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
196. Good morning, Members of the Panel, Board staff, and also to the Elders and members of Williams Lake Indian Band.
197. My name is Diana Audino. I’m counsel with Westcoast.
198. And with my is Robert Bourne, who is also counsel.
199. So we’re here on behalf of the applicant, Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission.
200. Thank you.
201. THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any other Intervenors present that wish to be acknowledge?
202. Seeing none, thank you. Kwséltkten.
203. As oral Indigenous knowledge is evidence that would be considered by the Board in the assessment of this project, the Board sees it as procedurally fair to allow Westcoast and other Intervenors, and the Board to be provided the opportunity to ask questions of those who are giving their evidence.
204. And if there are questions, Elders or knowledge keepers can choose whether they wish to answer those questions orally or in writing. If Elders or knowledge keepers prefer to receive and answer questions in writing, then the process will be the party asking the questions will have one day to file the written questions, and the witnesses will have one week to file their answers.
205. Can we confirm now how you would prefer to move forward, whether with oral or written answers to questions?
206. MS. SPEARING: We did indicate to John Parkins in our request that some questions may be tabled for written response and served dependent on the question whether or not they’ll be answered orally.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Opening remarks - Chairman
207. A couple of our Elders were unable to make it today, so there may be some preference that we do table some of the questions and have input from those Elders who were scheduled to be here as well.
208. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I take it that you’d prefer written -- we can ask the questions orally, but responses in writing to come? Is that correct? And we’re okay with the process for doing that? The timing?
209. Westcoast, you’re okay with that process?
210. MS. AUDINO: As long as we just have some -- a couple of days there to provide our reply evidence following the submission of their responses, that should be fine for Westcoast.
211. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
212. MS. AUDINO: Thank you.
213. THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that T'exelc have a visual aid and that it’s been shared with Westcoast.
214. Westcoast, do you have anything -- comment to make?
215. MS. AUDINO: No concerns regarding the visual aid.
216. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
217. Are there any other preliminary matters before we begin?
218. Seeing none, thank you then. Kwséltkten.
219. We’re ready, but for one thing, to start, then the sharing of oral Indigenous knowledge. And that is Elder Jean William, I don’t think we were able to give you a gift of tobacco. If I may do that?
--- (Gift of tobacco)
220. THE CHAIRMAN: Over to you.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge
WHITNEY SPEARING: Affirmed BRITTANY CLEMINSON: Affirmed ANN LOUIE: Affirmed VIRGINIA GILBERT: Affirmed WILLIE ALPHONSE SR.: Affirmed JEAN WILLIAM: Affirmed
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR WILLIAMS LAKE INDIAN BAND:
221. MS. SPEARING: So I would just ask that the slide be changed to present the visual aid.
--- (A short pause/Courte pause)
222. MS. SPEARING: So just a small background on the Williams Lake Indian Band -- the Williams Lake Indian Band is from Williams Lake, British Columbia. There’s a compressor station, CS6A, that is within the territory and also very close to IR #1, which is the Sugar Cane Village and the primary residential area in which community members and band members live. There’s also a ranch holding, the 150 Mile, which is even closer to the compressor station.
223. So we’ve had some engagement with Spectra and Enbridge over the last few years regarding the T-South Applications, some of the environmental work, some of the archaeology that has gone on with that project.
224. And essentially, the next slide, what it will show is a distillation of our traditional knowledge use and occupancy database. It’s a collection of oral histories, stories, interviews that have been collected throughout the years, since the 1980s until present and still ongoing. So while this is a map that we are going to present, it is obviously a reiterative process and it doesn’t reflect everything that could potentially be there. It is just a reflection of what is in the database at this time.
225. So I’ll ask for the next slide.
226. So what you’re looking at here is a heat map. And so basically it’s a visual representation of traditional use sites on the landscape, the red being indicative of a higher use and occupancy, and fading toward the yellow to a lower
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge use and occupancy.
227. The compressor station is inside of the hatched line there and has a two-kilometre radial buffer from which we drew out the traditional use site types that are found in that area. So as you can see, the red indicates 40 to 350. That’s how many sites are in that red band and sort of fading into the yellow.
228. So this is the, sort of, mapping that we’ve used to discuss with the elders and knowledge-keepers present today in order to discuss how we were going to present testimony. So we just wanted to give the NEB and the Proponent a chance to look at the map that we’ve been working off of, essentially.
229. And so with that, I’m not going to speak anymore; this is not for me to do. I’m going to pass it over to Virginia and let her take it from there.
230. ELDER VIRGINIA GILBERT: Good morning again. My name is Virginia Gilbert. I was born and raised in the Williams Lake area. My mom and dad was born and raised around the area, and my brothers and sisters. There was 12 of us and I’m the last one, so a lot of my older brothers and sisters -- I think there’s just about four of us left.
231. But I remember going fishing, hunting, picking berries all around the area there that’s shown on the map. Sometimes we’d go camping in some places for days and sometimes by the weeks, a couple of weeks at a time.
232. So as a little girl, I remember living in a tent down by the river, by what we call Flat Rock. We stayed on there for about two weeks, maybe longer. I remember my mom drying salmon and we had salmon, eating salmon all different ways, like boiling it, roasting it, and frying it. And we used to barter with the neighbours, Stafford, the elder ones. We used to barter with them for potatoes and rice and carrots, onions. We’d give them salmon and they’d give us the potatoes and stuff to live down by Flat Rock.
233. And also, with my sister Mary-Anne and Johnny Bates (ph.) -- she married Johnny Bates and they had three girls. And I remember living with them behind 150 Suttons Meadow. We used to camp there, and Johnny Bates, my brother-in-law, he would look after the cattle and the fields, the hay fields. I remember living in a tent there with my sister.
234. They had a cabin, a small cabin, there where the older people would
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge stay in there, and they had a tent beside the cabin. And I preferred sleeping in the tent because, I don’t know, it was just awesome sleeping outdoors in a tent with hot rocks. They’d dig a hole in front of the tent and put hot rocks in there to keep the tent warm at night, because this was in the fall, maybe around August, and then it would be frosty at night and in the morning. They had a way of keeping the tent warm.
235. I loved staying with them because my sister Mary-Anne was a beautiful cook. She was the best cook around. She’d cook rabbit stew, deer meat, moose meat, and she used to really make the best pies in the country -- that I thought. And I remember her making some kind of a chocolate. I forgot what they call it. It’s kind of like a toffee.
236. When we were down by the river, they’d hunt deer meat. Besides the salmon we ate, there was deer meat, always either boiled, stewed, or dried, and the berries.
237. The men would fish during the night, my brothers -- I had four brothers -- and my dad. And I remember them going down the river in the evening and they’d stay down there all night, and they’d pack the salmon up in the mornings before it got too hot, and all the salmon they’d bring up.
238. They used to bring horses down there, and there was about 20 salmon in a sack on both sides of the horse to bring up on the trail. And those trails were narrow because we had to go to the river, and sometimes we’d have to pack the salmon up.
239. I couldn’t go right down by the river because we couldn’t go down there until we were 12 years old. And then when we were 12 years old, then we had to pack salmon up. We couldn’t go down for nothing; we had a job to do. So my mom would give me two salmon to pack in a sack, and about halfway up, because it must be about a mile up -- just about a mile from the river going up to the camp -- about halfway and I’d be tuckered out and my mom would have to take my salmon besides her salmon back up.
240. So these are the days I remember -- going camping and picking berries during the day. When the men were sleeping, we’d go and we’d get the wood for the night, because my mom used to make a big fire beside the tent, and she said that kept the wild animals away, the bears and the cougars and whatnot around there. She’d make a big fire by the tent, and I used to love laying in the tent and
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge just imagining, seeing the fire jumping around and just being out there in the wild.
241. And then when we were out behind 150 Mile, Suttons Meadow, I remember those cold, cold nights, and early morning was frost, and my brothers would be out there either making poles, tent poles, or fence poles. They'd look after the fences around there, and digging ditches. So yeah, and we used to pick berries all over the place, up on Red Lake and Horsefly and Likely area, I remember. And I remember going out there and picking blueberries and all kinds of berries. And sometimes we go out there now and now we see fences there, and we can't go where we used to pick, and that's sad, because now my children don't even know where our camping areas are, our berry picking places are anymore.
242. And, yeah, we used to swim in the water there by the big bridge. They call it big bridge. We used to go for swimming there, and that was a playground. And up behind the 150 -- or, no, up behind my house is -- there used to be a trail where the old people used to go through, up to 153 Mile, the old house there, and they used to barter with the -- my mom used to barter with her buckskin clothes that she made, and buckskin gloves, and buckskin moccasins, buckskin vests that she used to make, and bead them, beautiful work.
243. And we'd have to walk up to the 150 Mile and she'd sell those buckskin things so that we could get some potatoes and rice and whatever we needed for the house, flour and sugar, and we'd have to pack that down from the 150 Mile store. I remember walking up to 150 Mile store with my mom, and we had to help pack things back down to the reserve, which is about -- I think about three miles down, three, four miles down.
244. So yeah, so those days I know are gone now, but I still go out and pick berries, and some of our young men go out and hunt for us now, and we have to go further away now on account of the fire that happened in 2017. We have to go out further now for moose and deer. There's deer around, and but not as much as before, and there's less animals that are around, but we see them once in a while.
245. So I see all the things that are happening, all the fire that happened behind my house and it burned four of my sheds down. I had a dry racking shed, and I had a wood shed, and two other sheds, storage sheds, and they burned in the fire. I had a sweat lodge that also burned. I used the sweat lodge. People would ask to come and use the sweat, and I'd get it ready for them, and I'd get somebody else to help me get it ready. All that's gone.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 246. I was lucky that the highway department was there working on the highway then. They brought their water trucks and watered down my house, so I was -- that was saved. Because I have a lot of old pictures and stories, I have a old computer. I have my story in it from a way back when I was a little girl to today, so I'm just lucky that that's saved.
247. And I'd like to thank you for -- if you have any more -- anything else to ask, or you want to hear about. Thank you. K̓ wséltkten.
248. THE CHAIRMAN: Would you like to have questions individual by individual or save them to the end?
249. ELDER VIRGINIA GILBERT: Not really, but I'd like to mention also that I'd like to acknowledge the Soda Creek Band that's here, because one of my sisters, Alice Gilbert, Alice Sellars, she got married and I got lots of nieces and nephews here in Soda Creek, and one of my nieces is sitting here with me today. And I'm just really glad that this is happening. K̓ wséltkten. Thank you.
250. MS. SPEARING: So I think we can probably take questions on an individual basis, and then we can sort of figure out which ones will be tabled for later.
251. THE CHAIRMAN: Westcoast, do you have any questions?
252. MR. BOURNE: We don't have any questions at this time. Thank you.
253. MEMBER COTÉ: Ms. Gilbert, thank you for sharing. In what you shared with us, there was a few references to specific locations. I wrote down the big bridge, 150 Mile store, and the river. Is there any way you could point those out on the map, just so I can visualise the geography of where these things are?
254. MS. SPEARING: Did you want me to assist with that then?
255. MEMBER COTÉ: That would be great, yeah.
256. ELDER VIRGINIA GILBERT: Flat rock would be on Highway 20, along Highway 20. We used to go by a team and wagon down to the camp.
257. THE CHAIRMAN: So perhaps the river first.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge
258. MS. SPEARING: The river actually, is not (off mic).
259. There's a collection of historic buildings that are in this area, including the 150 Mile historic school, the 150 Mile historic store, and the 153 Mile store as well, so essentially that's sort of just in this arced area of Highway 97, below the compressor station.
260. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. And lastly was the big bridge.
261. MS. SPEARING: Okay. So the big bridge is down on IR #1 at the San Jose River and Borland Creek, just below the community here. Is that right, Virginia? Yeah, so just below the Sugarcane community. So for reference, this is the Sugarcane community here. Williams Lake town site is at the opposite end of Williams Lake, which is right here.
262. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's helpful.
263. So back to you.
264. MS. SPEARING: I might also ask that -- there's a second visual aid that's on here as well, just to discuss some of the trails and things. It's the next slide, I believe. Okay. Again, this is a two-kilometre radial buffer on compressor station CS 6A. The lines and trajectories that you're looking at that are mapped here are the results of a cumulative mapping project that was done through B.C. Capacity Initiative jointly with the Williams Lake Indian Band. They are a collection of historic trails from a few sources, Hudson's Bay archive records, as well as the Fort George and Chilcotin Pre-emptor's Map series that's held by the BC Geographical Service.
265. There is also trails incorporated that are from the WLIB traditional use and land occupancy database. And essentially, they just are an overlay of all of the trails and transportation corridors. A few of the trails that you're looking at specifically that travel through the compressor station property and the radial area there are the Telegraph Trail and the Wagon Trail as well. So you may hear those mentioned, and so that's just a visual for some of the trails data.
266. And then I will pass it over to Former Chief Ann Louie for testimony.
267. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: Good morning. My name is Ann Louie. I
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge just wanted to point out there's an error on the visual aid. It said I was the chief -- former chief from 2000 to -- '10 to '18. I was actually the chief from 2008. I was also on council for six years on top of that.
268. Much of what Virginia said is similar to my story. We come from the same family. We travelled around hunting, fishing, gathering. And we did it in a seasonal manner. We would go fishing certain months of the year, go hunting certain months of the year, gathering certain months of the year. And those were in a different area each. Fishing was at the rivers, the creeks.
269. Some of what happened -- what’s going on with Enbridge is the pipeline that comes through, we spend a lot of our time camping, and hunting, and fishing at Knife Creek, where the transmission line comes through that area. The station itself is right about 150.
270. We still hunt and gather up in that area.
271. The transmission line also runs directly through a ranch that was recently purchased by Williams Lake Indian Band.
272. Enbridge has been -- has had an agreement with Williams Lake Band for some time and we’ve had some issues with them because there’s another station above IR #1 and they wanted to expand the road and we were opposed to that.
273. One of the reasons -- like, I was in negotiations with highways a few years ago before the current expansion. And one of the things that they were angry about at that time, they said, “Why are you so opposed to taking 1/8ths of your land just to put in a turning lane?” And I told them, “Over the years of cumulative 1/8ths of parcels of land, our reserve is shrinking and our traditional lands are shrinking because of all of the corporations that are going in. Every piece that’s added reduces our access to hunting, to fishing, to gathering.”
274. And more recently in 2017, when the fires occurred, that was a huge devastation to our community. A large fire went all through IR #1. A large part of it through our traditional territory, and through Soda Creek’s traditional territory. And Soda Creek is where one of my grandmothers came from.
275. So it has huge impacts on our people, our Elders that are -- the few that are still around in our communities that go out hunt, gather, and teach our young
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge ones. With the fires, the devastation has taken that away because a lot of the plants that were there are now gone. In that station area there, there was discussion about wetlands. We all know that wetlands is minimal now. And it’s even worse with the fires gone now.
276. The types of animals, there’s all kinds of furbearing animals, there’s painted turtles, there’s toads. All of those animals live in and around our area. We see them all the time; badgers is one of the ones that more recently it’s been on IR #1 around the mission up towards the buffalo range, it’s another reserve of ours that’s just prior to this station.
277. So there’s a lot of impacts that occur with this. And the traditional knowledge is lost because of a lot of the stuff that goes on. And one of the things that I find extremely frustrating is that at the time that a project is occurring, it always seems that it’s right at the very last minute that we’re called for engagement.
278. When you are -- I would suggest that any time that you’re planning a project of any type, that it should be immediate engagement, not five years after you’ve done your work, which seems to be the case all the time.
279. And it’s something that we battle ongoing. Not only with Enbridge, but with highways, with forestry, all of those natural resources that are being extracted. It’s a huge devastation to us. It’s our loss -- it’s a loss to our culture, our language, because when you can’t show young people what plants were there, you can’t teach them in our language because it’s not there. You can’t show them the medicines that are no longer there.
280. So it is extremely frustrating and I know that Enbridge has been in discussion with Williams Lake Indian Band and Soda Creek for a long time. But I was surprised to find out that now it’s just based on the station expanding. I would have -- you know, I think it’s important that our people testify on a transmission line itself if there’s plans to double it or to increase the load, because many of our Elders are dying off as we speak and that’s where a lot of knowledge keepers have that information.
281. It costs money, time, and energy. And I’ve always said that our Elders don’t get the financial compensation that they deserve for giving their testimony. We hire lawyers for $300 to $500 an hour and yet our Elders are lucky if they get $150 to $300 a day, which to me is a huge insult. Without them, we wouldn’t be
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge sitting at this table today.
282. So with that, thank you.
283. THE CHAIRMAN: Does Westcoast have any questions?
284. MS. AUDINO: No, we don’t at this time. Thank you.
285. MEMBER GEORGE: Elder Ann Louie, in your opinion, when would be a good time to start discussions on any Enbridge project?
286. CHIEF ANN LOUIE If you guys know that you’re planning type of any expansion within a year of that, not five years later.
287. Like, if you know right now you’re dealing just with a transmission site itself, but if you’re -- I’ve heard rumours previously about the twinning or expansion of fuel that is being transmitted through the pipeline, that discussion should also be occurring now.
288. MEMBER GEORGE: So your opinion is that once the company is starting to consider a project internally, they should also mention that to you?
289. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: Yes, because as you guys are doing your work and you’re one year in, you have one year ahead of us and we have to plan and get ready as well for the information.
290. And like I said, our Elders are dying off, so it’s important for any kind of reconciliation process that you’re going to be doing, that the earliest engagement possible is done.
291. MEMBER GEORGE: Thank you.
292. THE CHAIRMAN: I think that’s it for us.
293. MS. SPEARING: So I will then pass over to Jean William. And I will just note that, for the record, the nametag, and potentially the record here has a wrong last name. So there’s no S on the last name for Jean William.
294. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: (Speaking in Native language). Hello to everyone.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge
295. I’m really honoured to be here to speak on behalf of my band.
296. The land is very close to our people. I was raised by my grandparents, Tommy Wycotte. And he was from Alkali Lake, which is now called Esketemc.
297. My grandmother was from Sugarcane, the Williams Lake Indian Band.
298. I was Indian adopted.
299. I’m a fluent speaker of my language, which is Secwepemc. I have a lot of traditional knowledge. I grew up with many of the Elders in my community. And when I look at the trails and the map that’s up there right now, it brings me back to the time that I started hearing stories from my Elders.
300. Those were very, very important trails for our sustenance. It was our whole livelihood, the way our -- our way of life. And it really disturbs me as an Elder, and especially for my community, to see the developments that are taking place that a lot of times we have no knowledge of. These things are coming up now, these developments -- we very rarely hear about them until we’re presented with maps and there are studies that have already been done on them without our knowledge or our permission.
301. I also am a teacher. I’ve taught in the schools, local schools. I’ve taught linguistics and I’ve taught Indian studies in university, and it’s a real burden now to think that a lot of these things are going to be lost.
302. I still continue to take students, not only from my community but from the district schools, on field trips. A lot of the lakes where I normally take the students -- we follow the original trails that our people have used for centuries, and those are still the roads that are used today. And I take them to these lakes and I try to explain to them about the plants, the water birds, the birds. Some of them plants are no longer there. Those are impacts that have been happening because of the developments.
303. I was just looking at some notes yesterday in regard to that area. One of my relatives was married to a rancher. He was talking about a time when -- and the meadows up in there -- I heard the name Sutton Meadow today -- but way out in Henky Meadow and Litzenburg Meadow -- there are about eight or nine meadows up there that are really crucial to our way of life for hunting. And he
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge said there was as many as 20 moose at the time. In the last few years, even as far just Sunday, I never saw one moose out there, and I went about 15 kilometres from 150 Mile.
304. So those are the type of impacts that are happening. The migration trails of our wild animals, the migration trail for our deer have been heavily impacted by all kinds of development, especially these ones.
305. I just really want to say how important those areas are still for us. We’re not passing down our knowledge to our youth. At one time, out in that area, there was trapping that happened on Jones Creek.
306. Virginia Gilbert was one of the first speakers. One of her older sisters was one of the better trappers at that time, and they trapped out on Borland Creek and Jones Creek. And Jones Creek goes right through within a two-miles radius. And Jones Creek flows down in the creeks into our existing reserve right now, and there’s so much diversion of water, which is really another impact not only in our communities, but also out in areas not only because of the fires but because of the other impacts of the pipelines and whatever is going through.
307. The diversion of the water is really devastating for all of our wildlife, you know, the calving areas. Some of the calving areas of our moose are in some of those sensitive areas. There’s some areas there that I didn’t get a chance to really take a good look at the map. I don’t understand the maps that well, but I know that there are some sensitive areas where our moose calve. Our hunting areas in that area is really devastating. Like I said, the moose are disappearing. The deer, the migration trails are just being really, really destroyed.
308. Our trail, the maps that I have that -- I had done so extensive interviews with a lot of our Elders in that area, and they’ve given me a lot of their hunting trails, their trapping trails, and migration areas that they used in the past.
309. You know, when our people used those trails, they were really meaningful too, because of the stores. They used to take their furs -- Virginia did mention in regard to the buckskin work and stuff. If we were to go see the store today, we’d see the evidence of a lot of the artifacts: the buckskin work, the furs, the basketry. You don’t see those basketry the way that they’re made today. It doesn’t measure up to the work that a lot of our Elders back then. They’re just beautiful, and it’s still evident in the store that was there. And it was called the Cocina Store (ph.). The other store was down, well, where the store is now.
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310. When I was 15 years old, I worked there. I worked at the 150 Mile. I had a cousin that worked there as well before me. We had community members, a couple, that lived there at 150 Mile. So there’s lots -- and I’ve got several stories in regards to all the hunting and the fishing that happened there.
311. I was just talking to another Elder, and he said he left the area up there because the developments were beginning to happen, and they didn’t feel like they were a part of that area anymore. That’s really, really sad.
312. When you think about that and you think of – you know, we talked about when we saw about 20 moose at the time. And they said that moose were now disappearing, and that was quite a while ago. And then they left because they felt that the developments were happening and that the land didn’t belong to them anymore. They also mentioned that the diversion of water was happening, and they really relied on it because of their livestock and their way of life.
313. Anyway, that’s what I’d like to present today. Thank you for your time.
314. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
315. Westcoast, do you have any questions?
316. MR. BOURNE: No questions, thank you.
317. MEMBER CÔTÉ: Thank you again for sharing. 318. You mentioned artifacts. Are there other types of artifacts that you know of in the region, archaeology, perhaps, any artifacts that you're aware of?
319. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: In my position, I have several artifacts but I am not just exactly sure in what areas they were got out of. But I don't know what they have at the store there but everything is in -- it's left the way it was when it closed, so I'm not sure about that.
320. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
321. MS. SPEARING: So I might be able to offer a little bit of light on that question as well. The 153 Mile Store is a historic store that was held by the
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge Crossenas (ph.) who are a pioneer family, a colonizing family in Williams Lake. The 153 Mile Store closed and it is actually willed in an estate in its entirety so that the store cannot be moved or destroyed or any such other thing without the contents of the store being preserved.
322. My understanding is that the store contains a lot of historic items but as well as things that were trade items from Williams Lake Band and other bands including elements of basketry, clothing, artifacts such as stone tools that would be considered archaeological in nature at this time, and that the City of Williams Lake is in the process of either acquiring and/or moving that store into the Stampede Heritage Park which is Pinchback Park in Williams Lake.
323. MEMBER CÔTÉ: Thank you for that clarification. And just as a follow up on that, everything so far that I believe I've heard as it relates to artifacts has been at the 150 Mile House, as you you’ve just explained. There's been no mention of similar artifacts elsewhere. Is that -- there's been no mention. I just want to ensure that that’s my understanding.
324. MS. SPEARING: I think that -- so there's been no mention of it in the testimony here; however, definitely there has been a full archaeological assessment with the Highway 97 corridor that has recently been four laned. Sugar Cane Archaeology, a company that I also do work for -- I'm a permanent archaeologist so I do work for the band as an archaeologist as well. There are, in the region, hundreds of archaeological sites. The band has in its own repository over thousands of items that have been collected on the reserve portions of those sites.
325. The majority of those pieces that exist in the officer portions have been sent to non-local repositories including the Royal British Columbian Museum, including the University of Northern British Columbia Archaeology Laboratory, the Secwepmc Museum in Kamloops.
326. So the archaeological collections that do exist for the region are somewhat disjointed due to them being sent out of the region.
327. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: I just wanted to add to that with the collection of artifacts that are currently around and any that may be found in the future, there's plans for development of a cultural centre at 108 where we plan to utilize and store a lot of that for display in a museum-type facility.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 328. And in response to your question about artifacts within the region, they're everywhere. There are millions of sites that Whitney has referred to, but a lot of them are not public. They are privately held by our knowledge keepers.
329. MS. CLEMINSON: If I may just -- if you change the slide to the next slide, there is the archaeological map.
330. MS. SPEARING: So the red numbers and lettering that are sort of clustered represent recorded archaeological sites, currently recorded archaeological sites. And so essentially what you're seeing is a large clustering and/or grouping along the Highway 97 corridor. It's a bit of a misrepresentation in that the majority of the work in the region that has been done in this area is specifically related to the highway, and so we see a trajectory of these sites that go along the highway.
331. However, this map does not contain the results of a very large survey that we did post-fire, so in 2017. The majority of what you're looking at on this map burned and burned to the ground. It has subsequently been logged, clear cut. And WLIB implemented a archaeological reconnaissance, 100 percent survey coverage of the area that did burn. We found an additional 18 archaeological sites that are not associated with the highway corridor and that are set back. And that is without putting a shovel in the ground. These are artifacts that were just found on the surface.
332. So we talk about -- and I realize this is an oral traditional testimony hearing; it's not an archaeological hearing, but just in the sense of answering your question, there are more sites than we know about for sure. There's a large number of sites that are unrecorded because there is no impetus to record them. There is no driving force. There's no development planned and so no assessment completed, and therefore, no recording of the sites.
333. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: I just wanted to make another comment and just remembering. One of the other really important parts of my traditional knowledge is the place name information that I have for the Williams Lake Indian Band. And I think that the place name information, the place names that we have of areas in our territory explain the type of activities that happened in specific areas. And when we talk about the 150 Mile we call it supahoksum. That’s the Indian -- that's the Secwepmc name, supahoksum.
334. And when you take a look at the root word of supahoksum, it explains
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge that it's a halfway -- says halfway to some of our really major meadows and lakes that where we practised all our traditional activities. So that's usually look at that word and that gives you an idea where we're at. But I thought that was something I'd like to point out.
335. MEMBER GEORGE: Elder Jean William, just to follow up on that, you mentioned the place names explain what has occurred there. Has the English names kind of changed that situation or do you have the original place names in your community?
336. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: I think that the English is so dominant now that that’s used. But we still, as Elders, we still use the name supahoksum.
337. MEMBER GEORGE: Thank you.
338. MS. SPEARING: And so that’s more or less the testimony for the archaeological map, I suppose. I will then pass it on to Willy Alphonse Senior for his testimony.
339. ELDER WILLIE ALPHONSE SR.: Good afternoon. I think it's afternoon now. Just checking the time.
340. I can't hear too much because I left my helpers at home, my hearing aids, so picking up sentences here and there.
341. I didn’t really know what I was coming up here for the other day, so I'm getting a good taste of what I'm here for now, so after listening.
342. And I grew up on the Sugar Cane Reserve. My dad was from Anaham, Chilcotin. My mother was Shuswap. I grew up with the Shuswap language and it wasn’t very easy for me being a child on the reserve, because I didn't like to be called a Tsilqo'tin on a Shuswap, so that was fighting words for me being called a Tsilqo'tin on a Shuswap when I was younger, as a child. After I got older, I realized I am Shuswap and Tsilqo'tin, so I finally accepted that.
343. But all these places mentioned, I travelled them, all the trails and the hunting areas, and I still do today, as best I can. I take my kids or my grandkids if I can get them away from the distractions, I take them with me, and show them where I've been and hunting and all the animals that I see. You know, I show them what kind and maybe show them different kind of tracks, all the animals and
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge the berries, and all the medicines that I know. I teach them those things, take them out all these areas.
344. And some areas you come to and you might read a private property, you know, and I've been threatened a couple of times on a couple of places, stay on my land, and get to the gate and the gate's locked, and I know I had a couple of shots fired in the air. One time the guys told me to stay off their land. But that's my old hunting grounds and the trapping and whatever I need to survive, you know, and, you know, back in my young days we used to get ready for different seasons every year, you know. I remember my mom and dad they got a wagon full of dry meat and berries and getting ready for the winter and every season, you know, and fish.
345. And we used to travel by wagon and horseback them days. Today we use a vehicle to go out wherever we can, and some places we have to walk because we can't take our vehicles on the wagon roads and -- but all those days, there were -- the wagon and horseback days, we'd camp anywhere we want. But I still hunt wherever I want today, and like I said, I've been threatened a couple of times, but I still go to my different hunting areas; wherever I feel I should go, I go out there.
346. And then we used to drink water pretty well anywhere where we hunt. Today it's not like that anymore. You can't just get down and drink water for any creeks or whatever anymore, not like it used to. But I remember as a kid we'd get water anywhere, you know, and hunt wherever we want to, wherever the game is. And my parents pretty well know to travel with the game at different times of the year so. But I remember that as a child, and I still do what I can today with my grandkids and my children and probably do it until I can't get around anymore, you know. 347. But I'd like to see something get settled, you know, compensated, or whatever it takes to -- you know, this has been going on too long, and I keep saying I hope something happens in my lifetime, you know, and be glad to see, but I don't know. See what happens.
348. And I'm open for questions, but remember I don't have the answers for everything. Thank you.
349. THE CHAIRMAN: Westcoast?
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 350. MR. BOURNE: No questions.
351. THE CHAIRMAN: We're looking for answers here, so ask the questions.
352. MR. BOURNE: No questions for us. Thank you very much.
353. THE CHAIRMAN: It's my turn. I think I'm going to ask one question.
354. I've heard a lot about the fire of 2017, and to be honest with you, I wasn't aware of that fire, because they're too worried about fires in Alberta, I suppose. But what I'd like to know, or get your opinion on, and I'd be open to hearing different views and from any or each of you, is the difference -- as a hunter gatherer, does fire offer a significant difference to the way you do things than clearing, say, from forestry, or pipeline right-of-way, or highway right-of- way, that kind of thing?
355. Is there a significant difference when the land is cleared one way or the other? I don't know if that -- you can ask me for clarifying questions if you want, if that's not clear.
356. MS. SPEARING: So I might just offer a little bit of background on the fire then and just kind of catch everybody up to speed. So in July of 2017 the Cariboo-Chilcotin region had a series of dry lightning strikes that essentially sparked a lot of fires instantaneously. The fire that affected Williams Lake Band the most I would say is the Wildwood Complex fire. It started on July 7th from a single lightning strike that was just immediately above the community. The firefighters in 150 Mile had already left Williams Lake community to head to the Gustafsen fire in 100 Mile that was burning towards 100 Mile.
357. So the capacity to fight fire in the community of Williams Lake was diminished by that event. The lightning strike fire headed up towards the airport base and surrounded the Cariboo Fire Centre. The Fire Centre and airport almost burnt to the ground in that incident. They were able to get it under control, but that, again, suppressed capacity, so in those initial moments, and we're talking within the span of hours, the fire burnt down into the community. We had contractors on site doing the Highway 97 four laning that I spoke about earlier. They were able to put in some fireguards and contain a large portion of the fire so that we didn't lose any more structures.
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358. Several structures were lost, as well as one dwelling in the community, but essentially, that fire is different from a lot of other wildfire in the sense that it's not a small burn. It burned at a category four intensity, which is everything from the ground to the very tops of the trees burnt. The soil is now in a state that all of the duff is burned, all of the organics are gone. Nothing is growing back. The terrain stability is diminished significantly.
359. We have a host of experts that we've done a post-wildfire national hazards risk analysis in conjunction with Stantec and other engineering firms. There's a large amount of commercial residential elements at risk from that fire, but the largest portion of it and the lands that are immediately north of the community are Incremental Treaty Agreement area lands, so ITA lands. They were meant to be selectively harvested over the course of many, many decades, and that whole parcel of roughly 1200 hectares is now a clear cut, as well as being burnt.
360. So to offer just that kind of background, this isn't a small sort of fire that burned a little bit of land and has an effect. It's a devastating event.
361. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: I just wanted to add too, that your questions references, like, forestry or roads for devastation impacts for hunting and fishing. Those wildfires are something close to a million hectares that burned, and it's not just in our -- in this area we're talking about. It affects all of our traditional territory and other -- and our neighbouring communities that you have authorization to go hunt or fish in their territories, they were devastated as well. We hunt and fish out in the Tsilhqot’in area. I’m sure you’ve heard of the wildfires and the impacts that it had on the Tsilhqot’in. They only have about 10 to 15 years of logging left because of the wildfires.
362. The elephant tail fire came from Ashcroft. It burned all the way to Canim Lake, and Canim Lake is where some of our family comes from. And we go down there and share and harvest. So the creek has lost a massive part. If you go past this station, you go on Mountain House Road and go across, you’ll see the devastation.
363. There is minimal forestry left for us, and that’s what I spoke about when I was testifying earlier, that the plants and that are no longer there because it burned so hot and so fast that it destroyed everything. Those plants are no longer there.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge
364. THE CHAIRMAN: So are there signs today of the land coming back, or it’s sounding like that’s not happening because of the heat of the soil.
365. MS. SPEARING: There are some signs that there are minimal ground cover coming back. In the Incremental Treaty Agreement areas, the WLIB is committed to planting, I think it’s 100,000 stems of lodgepole pine and spruce intermittent.
366. But the area that was there, just to describe it -- it was Douglas firs between 250 to 500 years old. So it provided, sort of, a unique habitat for the fur- bearing animals. I mean, it’s one thing for the plants to be gone -- and that is an issue -- but there’s also now no habitat for animals as well. So when we’re talking about removing a wetland or we’re talking about just taking another slice of trees down, we’re really looking at some of the only standing timber that’s left anywhere surrounding the community, so it’s a critical issue.
367. We have jointly developed some plans with Red Cross and some forestry partners to attempt a traditional plants replanting. The cost of that exercise is immense, in the millions of dollars, and we’re not sure whether or not it’s a viable option due to the fact that also everything that you see is burned -- it’s also range land. So if we go out and plant 100,000 trees and 200,000 food plants, chances are, when the neighbouring range farmers, ranchers, let out their cows to pasture, they’ll be trampled and eaten.
368. So we’re kind of in this pause right now where we’re not really sure how to approach the issue. The terrain and soil scientists are coming to the community from Vancouver and Victoria the first week of June, so that’s coming up, but we are two years into this now and more or less what we’re seeing growing back is dandelions, very, very small patches of grass and dandelions.
369. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: I just wanted to add too. The other thing that hasn’t been spoken about in relation to the fires is the devastation from the flooding that’s occurred because the lack of trees to hold the water back. There’s been severe damage done in our community. For two years in a row, having to do flood watch and use sandbags -- an older road that used to be the main highway is completely washed out and destroyed, and even on the highway construction itself, they’ve had to put in rocks to stabilize the banks, and that slowed the highway project down for about a year.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Williams Lake Indian Band Oral Indigenous Knowledge 370. There’s a lot of devastation not having the trees and stuff to hold the water back that’s coming down from this area here, all the creeks that feed in, come in to our reserve: Borland Creek and San Jose and all those ones, 153 Mile.
371. ELDER JEAN WILLIAM: I just wanted to add again to not only mention the water. I guess, in a way, it’s important to say that -- Willie Alphonse spoke about we were able to drink a lot of the water in those areas, and it’s just been crazy. It’s just been drying up all our springs. All our springs are dry. We can’t even find any springs to get any type of water now.
372. And talking about the fires -- you know, the migration trails – it’s really, really impacting the wildlife’s migration trails and that. That’s what really my main concern is too, and the feed. And now there are non-indigenous plants that are going to be growing. And there is another concern of mine: the different types of weeds. And then we’re talking about the dandelions that are in there. You know, it’s destroying our indigenous plants that once grew there.
373. MEMBER GEORGE: I guess I have another question here.
374. We’ve heard about ongoing resource development. We’ve heard about the impacts of the fire. What does all that mean about how the project that we’re here for would impact the lands, you?
375. MS. SPEARING: I think largely what it is that we’re seeing is any proposed project in this area right now is in a very critical, sensitive environment and habitat for the remaining animals. We don’t have any measurables, scientific measurables, about how this fire has impacted moose and deer population or fur- bearing animals, whether or not the large cats have lost their, what we call, wildlife trees. You know, some of those trees are 400 years old, so maybe the large cats have moved on. Maybe the badger population is going to be diminished because of loss of burrows, loss of prey. And really no cumulative effects study from the fire has been done.
376. So when we’re talking about the particular project that’s in front of us, that involves the removal of a wetland, it involves some timber clearing, it involves some brushing, and it actually involves a lot of disturbance. Like, these projects bring in a lot of truck traffic. They bring in a lot of dust. The potential for invasive weeds and species to pick up in these areas is extremely heightened just due to the fact that it’s all burned and disturbed land now. It’s not a natural environment where these things wouldn’t normally pick up.
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377. So when we’re talking about the impacts of a project like this, normally that’s one thing, but in an environment where it’s almost completely devastated, it’s a different issue, and I think it’s an issue that we really don’t fully understand just due to there not being a lot of information yet.
378. MEMBER GEORGE: So if I heard you correctly -- or using your words, I think you said, “Any project now in this area would have an impact.” Did I hear you correctly?
379. MS. SPEARING: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, we’re looking a lot harder at the forestry proponents that are in this area. We’re looking a lot harder at pipelines. We’re looking, you know, a lot harder at all of the development that’s happening -- residential, industrial -- and just being sensitive to the fact that new buildings, new structures, increased traffic, increased dust, increased noise may send animals and environmental issues into a deeper, sort of, throe of devastation than they’re already in. Basically, the environment hasn’t bounced back yet, and so we’re not entirely sure how this project will impact things.
380. And that’s what we’re having to do with everything. WLIB did do some of the timber salvage logging in the ITA lands, and so removed a large amount of timber. There was a lot of concern there. There’s a lot of big trees there, but that economic loss to the community would have also been devastating. Those lands were picked as treaty lands for their value and essentially the value is lost and gone up in smoke.
381. So we had to look at, you know, do we take these trees down? Do we allow other proponents to be in this area? What are we going to do about range? Range isn’t really a project, but it’s still an impact and it’s something we have to mitigate and have plans for. So we're taking a harder look at things that are within what we're calling wildfire affected areas.
382. CHIEF ANN LOUIE: I just wanted to kind of give you an overview of those fires, just so that you'll understand where we're coming from when we say that we're really concerned about any new development and the impacts to our cultural activities. The whole town of Williams Lake was evacuated. The whole town of 100 Mile was evacuated. Cache Creek was evacuated. Soda Creek Reserve was evacuated, and Williams Lake Band was evacuated. Total evacuation of all of those communities, that's how big that fire was.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Opening remarks - Chairman
383. THE CHAIRMAN: Westcoast, would you like to ask any questions? You're good?
384. MR. BOURNE: No further questions, thank you.
385. THE CHAIRMAN: Well, unless you have more comments you would like to make, I think we've exhausted our questions.
386. And on behalf of my colleagues I'd like to thank you all very, very much for sharing today. It's, as I said before, been a privilege.
387. So in closing then I'll ask T'exelc First Nation if you'd like to close with a prayer.
--- (Closing prayer)
388. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. So just before we break then, Kukstemc, again, thank you very, very much for your time.
389. And I'd just like to say, I appreciated the sort of fluidity of the discussion rather than sort of a regimented back and forth. That was -- I think we -- speaking for myself and hopefully on my colleagues' behalf, that was much appreciated. Thank you so much.
390. We'll break now then and pick it back up at 1:30. Is that okay with Westcoast and the others? Sorry? Two o'clock? Sorry, we've had a request for reconvening at two o'clock then. Thank you very much.
--- Upon recessing at 12:29 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 12h29 --- Upon resuming at 2:33 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 14h33
391. THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we're a smaller group now.
392. Hello, and welcome to Quesnel this May 22nd for the oral Indigenous portion of the National Energy Board’s GHW-002-2018 hearing concerning Westcoast Energy doing business as Spectra Energy Transmission for Westcoast’s T-South 2018 Compressor Station Applications.
393. As a sign of respect, the National Energy Board would like to
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Opening remarks - Chairman acknowledge that we are gathered here today on the traditional territory of First Nations who are not participating in this hearing. For this reason, we thank the Lhtako, Nazko, Lhoozk’us Dene, and Lheidli T’enneh Nations for offering us this hospitality.
394. The Board recognizes the sharing of traditional history and knowledge is an honour bestowed by First Nations on us and we are grateful to be here.
395. This afternoon we are going to be hearing from Papaschase First Nation
396. My name is Murray Lytle. I am the Chair of the Panel. And on my left are Mr. Roland George and to my right is Mr. Damien Côté.
397. Ms. Edith Pritchard, our Regulatory Officer will now address a few housekeeping issues before we start.
398. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
399. In the event that we hear a building evacuation tone just in case there is an emergency, please exit the hearing room through the same doors that you entered by. Once outside the building, please proceed to the muster point, which will be in the front parking lot on the south corner of the property, and take a roll call of your group -- the two of you --and if either is not accounted for, please draw it to the attention of our Hearing Manager, Ms. Suzanne Brown.
400. For security reasons, please do not leave bags or personal belongings unattended in the hearing room. If you have concerns regarding safety, please speak to any Board staff member.
401. The men’s and ladies’ washrooms are here. And we have available WiFi with the password is on the board behind the bar.
402. Today, in addition to the Panel, we have the following Board staff here with us: Suzanne Brown, as I mentioned, is our Hearing Manager. Monika McPeake is our IT support. And Jana Nicholson is our counsel. And Janet Foreman is another of our Regulatory Officers as well as Jo-Anne MacDonald at the back, our Socio-Economic Specialist. The court reporter today is Dale Waterman.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Opening remarks - Chairman 403. Board staff, we are wearing gold name tags for easy identification. Please feel free to approach any of us if you have general questions. If you have process-related questions, please speak with our Process Advisor, John Parkins who you met when we were coming in today. If participants have any preliminary matter that they wish to raise, they should also bring them up with Mr. Parkins. And preliminary matters, if any, will usually be handled at the beginning of each session.
404. The oral Indigenous knowledge shared here today will be transcribed and will form part of the hearing record. Electronic transcripts of the proceedings will be made available on our website at the end of each hearing day, under the T- South 2018 Compressor Station Applications home page, which you can find by following our website links.
405. A live audio stream of the hearing is being broadcast via the NEB’s website. We welcome those who are listening in today.
406. We request that everyone who is in attendance turn off or mute your mobile phones for the duration of this session, as they can be disruptive.
407. Due to the fact that we are live streaming and we need to have an accurate transcription of today’s proceedings, we would appreciate if speakers could please talk slowly and clearly at all times. As well, speaking closer and directly into the microphone works better than further away.
408. We are booked to sit until nine o'clock this evening and we will be taking breaks as and when necessary. If you need to take a break, please do not hesitate to indicate that to the Panel. Thank you.
409. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you Ms. Pritchard.
410. Before we start hearing from Papaschase First Nation, I will first ask for a few introductions so that everybody knows who is in the room today. And we'll start with Papaschase, if you can identify yourself for the record and just give us a few words of background about yourselves.
411. MR. CUNNINGHAM: My name is Clayton Cunningham. I'm a consultant assisting Papaschase with this proceeding.
412. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: Chief Calvin Bruneau. I'm the
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Opening remarks - Chairman current Chief in my second term. We have a four-year term. I'm a direct descendant of Chief Papaschase, and we're based out of Edmonton. And we'll just give that introduction for now.
413. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Next I'll invite Westcoast to introduce themselves.
414. MS. AUDINO: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and Panel Members, Board staff and Papaschase First Nation. My name is Diana Audino. With me today is Robert Bourne, and we're counsel here on behalf of the Applicant, Westcoast Energy Inc., carrying on business as Spectra Energy Transmission. Thank you.
415. THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think there are any other Intervenors in the room. If anybody wishes to be identified, please do so.
416. There being none. As oral Indigenous knowledge is evidence that will be considered by the Board in its assessment of this project, the Board feels that it's procedurally fair that Westcoast, the Board, and other Intervenors be provided an opportunity to ask questions of Elders on their evidence. And if there are questions, you may choose whether to answer questions orally or in writing.
417. If you prefer to receive and answer questions in writing, the Party asking the questions will have one day to file the written questions, and the witness will have one week to file his or her written answers.
418. And if you can at this time, if you could confirm how whether you're willing to respond to written -- or oral questions at this time, we'd appreciate knowing that.
419. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: It depends on the question, what information is required, whether we need that -- provide that in writing or not.
420. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So we'll determine on a question by question basis. That makes sense.
421. Westcoast, that's fine by you? M'hm?
422. Will you be using any visual aids for your presentation?
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge
423. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: No, just me.
424. THE CHAIRMAN: And what a visual aid you are. Thank you.
--- (Laughter)
425. THE CHAIRMAN: I'll now ask Ms. Pritchard to swear in the witness in the way they have chosen to be.
CALVIN BRUNEAU: Sworn
426. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We're now ready to -- and anxious to hear what you have to say. Thank you.
--- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR PAPASCHASE FIRST NATION:
427. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: Good afternoon, everybody.
428. First of all, I'd like to thank you, first to acknowledge the traditional territory, the Carrier Nation that we are in. I'd like to acknowledge if any Elders had prayed this morning, I acknowledge their prayers, and also want to thank you for offering the protocol tobacco as our traditions when you're requesting information from a knowledge keeper or an Elder. So just thank you for that.
429. And excuse me. So what I'm going to share with you today is the story of our people. You know, and I'm going to try to cram in, you know, a couple hundred years of history, you know, within a short amount of time. I've learned the history from -- not only from our Elders, but also from research and, you know, numerous authorities and books and that, and research papers, and historians.
430. And so first of all, like I mentioned earlier, I'm a direct descendant of Chief Papaschase. And he was a chief in the Edmonton area, and he signed treaty 6 on August 21st, 1877. And the band, like many of our people, we were nomadic, and we also went with the fur trade. So back then, you know, we were in the Slave Lake area, this is Central Alberta, Central North Alberta, Fort Assiniboine, Lac Ste. Anne, and Edmonton area. So we had a wide vast range of territory that we hunted and gathered in. And that was the way of our people.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge
431. But just to go even back further than that, I'm just going to give you a bit of a background. The Crees, you know, span from Quebec all the way out to B.C. here. We're the largest nation in Canada. And we span in many territories, you know, right from the southern border right into the territories. And you know, we expanded, and mainly the part of that was because of the fur trade. We're the stronger nation of people, and because of our interaction with the early fur trader and explorers, we had access to a lot of -- better of the ammunition and that.
432. And our main enemy was the Blackfoot, Blackfeet people. And so we fought for supremacy from the 1700s into the 1800s. And that led into -- even into B.C. where some of the B.C. nations, like the Kootenays, were allied with the Blackfoot, Snake down south. And so, you know, when we fought with each other, we had allies. Now the Cree, we had the Stoney and Assiniboine, which is Central Alberta, Southern Saskatchewan. And so that's what we did was we fought for territory.
433. And Slave Lake in Alberta, for an example, was actually called Slave Lake after the Slavey people, where we pushed them further up north, including the Beaver people, who were in the central and Northern Alberta, and after making peace, where the town of Peace River is today, called Peace Point. So these are, you know, just a little bit of a historical background.
434. But because of our interactions with the fur traders and with the early explorers like Anthony Henday and the Palliser expedition, we helped to bring them across into the -- through the mountains. So we helped to develop these trade routes. And you know, and so we had a lot of interaction back then.
435. And you know, I was talking with Clayton earlier there, and we were talking about how our people -- and that -- but it was common amongst the tribes going in and, you know, taking women from each nation kind of thing. You know, and the Cree and the Blackfoot did that a lot to each other, but that happened here as well too in certain instances.
436. And so, anyway, and so these routes were established, and some people tend to stay. And so what happened was with the Papaschase people -- and I'll explain about what happened with our band and why our people are scattered. So just to give you that historical background that we had this fur trade going on. We set up these forts, not only in Alberta, but also in B.C. And so we
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge went back and forth to these forts, hunted and traded, and our people came into the mountains a lot.
437. And what would happen was we were based out of Edmonton. And Edmonton was created because -- not only because they wanted the people coming there; no, they were there because our ancestors were there. And there's a place called Ross Flats. And so they set up the early forts in 1795 to 1915 when they tore down the last version. But throughout the 1800s, that's where Fort Edmonton stood, and we were the host nation there.
438. And so we were part of the -- very much part of the fur trade. My ancestors helped build the York boats that they would load the furs with, and they would send them off to Hudson's Bay. Our people helped with the buffalo, making the pemmican, but out of the buffalo they used every part of the animal, including with robes and that.
439. So they also helped with feeding the people at the fort. And what they did was they were hunters, along with the Métis, and so they had to feed the people. So they were very much involved with the fur trade, but they travelled a lot as well, and they came into the mountains as well as guides and as hunters as well.
440. What happened with the Papaschase Band, and I won't get too much into detail because there's a lot involved, but after they signed Treaty 6, and that's Central Alberta, and up until, you know, the Jasper area and Central Alberta and Central Saskatchewan, they -- you know, the government started to break the Treaty already. And part of that was for one clause, a square, every family of five you're supposed to get one square mile and what happened was they took off a number of people early on and to reduce the reserves, because it was right next door to development of the towns of Edmonton and Strathcona. The early settlers didn’t like a reserve so close, even though our people were there longer than they were. And so they wanted us -- our people removed.
441. And so the surveyors came in in 1880, finished the reserve -- surveying the reserve in 1884. And that’s today in south Edmonton. And it was 40 square miles.
442. So today the boundaries are 51st Avenue, 17th Street on the east side, 30th Avenue South West, north of Nisku and Beaumont, and on 119th Street. So a good chunk of southside is where our reserve was. So Edmonton is our
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge traditional land and territory.
443. And also east of Edmonton, which is called the Beaver Hills. And that’s how Edmonton got its Cree name, Amiskwaciy. Amiskwaciy means “Beaver Hills House.” So that’s how the Cree people described Fort Edmonton. But in short, we called it Amiskwaciy, Beaver Hills. And so that’s the Cree word for Edmonton.
444. So what happened was, you know, we got relocated to the south side, chose to live on the reserve. And what happened was they wanted to transition our people from being a nomadic hunting and gathering people into farmers. And in these treaties, for every three people they were supposed to give farming implements and tools. But they didn’t do that with a lot. We only got some of these farming tools.
445. And today now these claims are known as cows and plows. So a lot of First Nations did not get these tools. So today the government has to settle these claims with a lot of Nations. In particular, Treaty 8, northern Alberta, they’ve recently done that.
446. And so what happened was there was a move to basically remove the Papaschase people and to take away their reserve. And how the local settlers and politicians did it was by lobbying Indian Affairs officials and the federal government to remove these people and get a surrender. And with the surrendered lands, to sell off these lands. And what they did was they used the -- what’s called Métis Scrip. That was to appease the Métis peoples claims to land and their Aboriginal title.
447. And so some of the Papaschase people were taken as Métis Scrip. And because they took that, they weren’t considered Treaty Indians anymore. They had to leave the reserve. So the remaining ones, they forcibly removed over to Enoch, which today is on the western edge of Edmonton. And so there’s nobody left on the reserve by 1887.
448. So in 1888, they took a surrender from only three men. But these officials contravened the Indian Act. Section 39 of the Indian Act says that when there’s to be a surrender, it should be, you know, with consent, and has to be surrendered to the Crown or the Queen. And only three guys showed up. They called a meeting with only four days notice.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge 449. Now, from records that we’ve uncovered through research, they’ve -- they should have had a meeting with about at least 20 men. Back then, women couldn’t vote. It was males over the age of 21.
450. So they only had three guys show up. And these three guys apparently agreed, gave their consent.
451. But in the -- there’s a second clause in the section 39. It says when the first group gives their consent and there’s a majority there, then you’re supposed to call a second meeting within 30 days to get the rest of the voting members to vote on it and get a majority there too. They never did that. That second meeting never happened.
452. So they sent -- the Indian Affairs people sent a document off to Ottawa, the surrender agreement. And basically that was surrendered lands. And then they would sell it and the proceeds would go to the members of the Papaschase Nation. And in 1889, this document reached Ottawa, privy counsel stamped it, and so therefore giving it the legitimacy of a valid surrender.
453. And so we still have a claim against Ottawa. We’re saying that that was fraud and that surrender is invalid.
454. And so they dispersed the Band. And so a lot of these members were forced to go to Enoch, but a lot of these people scattered onto other Nations within Treaty 6, or also into Treaty 8.
455. And now there’s been more people coming forward from Treaty 7, which is down south, Blackfoot territory.
456. But from what we understand historically, they came out west too.
457. Papaschase, because he was an older man, he made it as far as the foothills. So he lived there before he moved to St. Paul, Lac La Biche area, where he eventually passed on, early 1900s. But other members of the Tribe came out west here and intermarried and that and then migrated even to the interior here.
458. So today we have descendants. People have come forward over the years. We’ve had meetings with -- in the past, early 2000s, and I came again in 2014 in Prince George.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge 459. But we’ve gone to places and met with descendants out here in Kamloops, Alkali Lake, Williams Lake, Prince George, Fort St. John, Dawson Creek, just to name some of these places.
460. But we also have other descendants who have then, you know, moved here throughout the years, in Surrey and Vancouver area, Maple Ridge, Chilliwack, all these different areas.
461. So the Cree migration, what I’m trying to explain is that this is not new. This is not within the last 50 years or so, you know, we were always in Alberta and Saskatchewan and we decided to come to B.C. No, this has been happening for a few hundred years. And so and a lot of our people are still here today, like I said. And they’ve migrated original from the Nation.
462. And so I’m in touch with descendants even into Saskatchewan, as far east as Ottawa that I met descendants last year. So our people are scattered all over.
463. And a lot of them still, you know, use the lands where they’re at and in the general territory. And for example, Prince George and Kamloops, we have people that still use the land traditionally. A lot of people still adhere to the traditions and still hunt and fish and gather. Because some of our people still adhere to the culture, our Cree culture. And so they’re gathering medicines and they’re gathering herbs and that.
464. We have a medicine, what’s called rat root. And there’s only certain specific places that you can get these. And that’s a medicine that we use either in tea, or you chew on it. And that’s to help with your cough and your chest colds. Things like that.
465. But there’s also, you know, when we have feasts, we -- you know, it depends on whatever kind of feast it is, whether it’s pipe ceremony, whether it’s different types of feasts, we always include food in there. So we include foods from the land, like berries, but also animals like moose and that. So we use the food not only for sustenance and that, but also for our ceremonies. And -- or even like sweats and things like that, where they do have foods afterwards, where they have berries and different types of food.
466. I’ve been to sweats where they’ve had -- you know, you take a portion of the food, you know, as an offering and that. And so you’re, you know, taking a
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge portion of, like, berries that you get handed to you, fish, different things like this.
467. So we use a lot of the animals and the plants culturally, but not only just for sustenance as well. So that’s the thing is, you know, we are still compiling information from our people. People are still coming forward and identifying themselves as Papaschase. And even in B.C. here.
468. And, you know, because I know for sure down south, I know a lot of them, they like to hunt for the -- fish for the salmon and that. And, you know, there were times I even got jars sent to me, canned salmon; right? So and so our people are around here. So they do use these lands and this territory here in the Kamloops area and the Prince George area. So they make use of these -- what’s available here. And they’ve been here for a long, long time. And so they are affected like that in that way.
469. And so now the work that we’re doing is -- you know, we are established in Edmonton and we are, you know, working with these different people not only in Edmonton, but also in these different surrounding areas. And we’re also an intervenor in the Trans Mountain pipeline as well, because that starts in our traditional land and territory, which is Edmonton. And so the tank farm is on the east side of Edmonton. That’s in our lands. Where it starts, when it goes along Henday, right through south Edmonton, that’s right in our lands.
470. So right now we’re in the middle of negotiations with Trans Mountain and Natural Resources Canada in regard to this pipeline. So we’re one of those nations that you hear about, that there’s still ongoing talks. And I bring that up because, of course, we’re an intervenor there and we’re very much a nation that’s affected, because it goes through our territory.
471. And we’re also looking at the procurement side of things, which is employment and training and jobs for our people.
472. So our people are affected with this pipeline too, so this was brought to my attention. And a few people have said, “Yes, we do use this land and territory.” But this was short notice on how this came about. They weren’t able to be here today. Because they were messaging me yesterday and saying, “I wish I had gotten more notice.” But they wanted to be here, so I said, “Okay, well, we’ll have to set up meetings and all that in the future,” which we’re going to be doing, you know, talking with them, getting more of their stories.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge 473. Because that’s what we’re doing in Alberta, is we’re working on elders’ gathering. And that’s what we’re doing -- is we’re compiling, for our purposes, not only for the Trans Mountain pipeline but in general -- we want to start collecting our people’s history, which we haven’t been able to do because we were lacking the resources.
474. So that’s the work that we’re also undertaking here with the next not only a few months -- but I can see it progressing along as these elders come forward, because we’re still finding elders from different nations.
475. Just by fluke, by chance, I was in Saskatchewan a few years back and I was at a funeral. And I was talking to one of the elders there, and I was telling him our history and our story and that. And one of the main names is Gladue Quinn. That’s one of the key family names -- is Gladue. So he said, “Well, there’s an Elder in the next reserve.” He said, “He’s a Gladue.” He said, “I’ll take you to him. Let’s go visit him.” So we did, and sure enough, he was a direct descendant of -- Papaschase had six brothers and he was a direct descendant of one of his brothers, and he knew where he came from. He knew he came from Edmonton territory, and they migrated out west. And that’s what I’m coming across. There are a lot of people that are in Saskatchewan that originated from Edmonton.
476. So it’s like a lot of these people know where they’re coming from as well. A lot of these people know their history, and they have told me that. You know, their grandparents -- because our people are like that -- they said, “Well, we originally came from here.”
477. So some of these people have told me their history too. A family out in Kamloops was telling me that recently. a lady -- how they know they originated from Edmonton and then they migrated out west and ended up in the Hinton area, were there for a while, and then they started coming to the mountains. And they were there and they were also involved in logging. And they ended up in Kamloops, and that’s where they are today. So she knows her history, and so she explained that to me, and that, yeah, they’d definitely been there for a long, long time. But they know they originate from Edmonton.
478. So that’s a common theme with our people that are scattered all over. And so that’s why we’re a different anomaly. Yes, we’re based out of Edmonton; we’re an urban reserve. But we have people scattered all over. And when we have meetings, sometimes these people trek these distances just to come and meet
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge with everybody, relatives and that.
479. So this is the history I wanted to tell. I really condensed it from what I normally tell. I just wanted to give you a synopsis of who we are and why our people are out here and why we’re affected.
480. So where are we at right now? Oh, it’s only a half hour.
481. So when I came up here in 2014, I went with people in Prince George. And they’re in the Prince George territory, so they make use of the whole area. And they also hunt and gather and that. And they’re right next door to the Carrier Nation too. They’re directly affected by this, and they also work in that area, involved in many different industries, and so they would be affected by this pipeline as well.
482. So they told me back then that they wanted to share their history as well too and their stories, and so that’s what we were planning on doing, coming up and collecting their history and that, and finding out more about them. Because they definitely know they’re Papaschase people, but they’ve been living here for so long and they want to make that connection.
483. So I came up here in 2014 and I’ll be coming up here again and collecting their knowledge and history, and getting more in depth and in detail, and finding out their practices. But also, I’m really interested in what industries they’re involved in as well. So I just want to collect a lot of their knowledge -- their elders, their knowledge keepers -- but also just from an anthropological point of view, find out how they’ve been living in this area for so long, what they’re been doing, and who practises the culture, who practises the medicine and that. Because in each and every area, we always have our people that do that, you know, with our medicine people, medicine men, people who practise traditions. So that’s what we want to gather, but we do know we have people like that.
484. With that, I think that’s probably about it -- what I’d like to provide. I mean, I can share a lot. I do share in universities and schools and all that, but that’s more about Papaschase and our history and what we’re doing in Edmonton and all that. I can speak for a good hour, hour and a half, but right now I’d just like to present that.
485. Thank you.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge --- (A short pause/Courte pause)
486. THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry for that.
487. Westcoast, do you have any questions?
488. MR. BOURNE: No questions.
489. Thank you, Chief.
490. MEMBER GEORGE: Chief Bruneau, you were talking about the research that you’re doing on your people, and it’s ongoing. We don’t have that on the record right now, so could you maybe tell us how this links with this particular project, how it's impacting your people and communities?
491. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: Well, we'd like to present that in a written form because we've -- it's still ongoing and that and we'd like to present that in a written answer.
492. THE CHAIRMAN: So just for process, the Board then will send you the question in writing. You'll have a week to respond. You'll serve it on Westcoast as well, if I'm getting this right. And then you'll have an opportunity to respond.
493. And maybe I should ask Jana, is there back and forth on this or not?
494. MS. NICHOLSON: Sorry, I don’t -- I'm not sure if I understand your question. I wonder if we should take a break and just confirm the process so that we're clear for everybody?
495. THE CHAIRMAN: Sure, let's. We'll be back in five minutes just so we make sure that we get the timings right.
--- Upon recessing at 3:09 p.m./L’audience est suspendue à 15h09 --- Upon resuming at 3:15 p.m./L’audience est reprise à 15h15
CALVIN BRUNEAU: Resumed
496. THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, we're slaves to the knock-on effect so have to get the timings right.
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge
497. So the question then, just for clarity, was how are your people and communities impacted by this Project? We'll give you til 29th of May for a response and we'll have reply evidence pushed back to 3rd of June.
498. Westcoast, are you okay with that?
499. MR. BOURNE: Just to clarify, so when you say "pushed back reply evidence" that will be our entire reply evidence submission will now be due on the 3rd as opposed to the 28th?
500. THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
501. MR. BOURNE: And no impact to the timeline for the oral cross- exam?
502. THE CHAIRMAN: No.
503. MR. BOURNE: We're fine with that.
504. THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And the question is clear then?
505. So is it a week today we'll hear back from you?
506. CHIEF CALVIN BRUNEAU: Okay. Thank you.
507. THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? No questions?
508. Well, that brings us then to the end of the oral Indigenous knowledge portion of the Westcoast T-South Compressor Station Applications proceeding.
509. On behalf of my colleagues, I want to thank everybody who has appeared before us today, everyone in attendance, and everyone following along on our website. We appreciate very much all of the time and efforts brought to bear in assisting us in this process.
510. I would also like to thank all the Board staff for their hard work in assisting the Panel today and throughout this proceeding.
511. So with that, we are now adjourned. Thank you very much and safe
Transcript GHW-002-2018 Papaschase Cree Nation Oral Indigenous Knowledge travels.
--- Upon adjourning at 3:17 p.m./L’audience est ajournée à 15h17
Transcript GHW-002-2018