Friday Volume 533 21 October 2011 No. 211

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Friday 21 October 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1179 21 OCTOBER 2011 1180 House of Commons Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill Friday 21 October 2011 Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee, considered. Third Reading The House met at half-past Nine o’clock 9.35 am PRAYERS Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. [Mr Speaker in the Chair] This is a little Bill, although it is considerably larger than it was on Second Reading, but it is now fit for purpose, as the Minister might put it. I thank individuals 9.34 am on both sides of the House, including Opposition Front- Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I beg to Bench Members and the Under-Secretary of State for move, That the House sit in private. Justice, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Reigate Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163), and (Mr Blunt), and his team I also thank the National negatived. Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children for quiet support. Sometimes quiet support is best. Finally, and most important, I thank the recently retired Met police officer, Detective Chief Inspector Dave Marshall. He has worked with me on a successful run of legislative changes to enhance the protection of children: six down, one to go—or one and a half to go. The Bill will assist the prosecution of people who hurt children or vulnerable adults and those who stand by and allow such acts. It means that when a child is seriously physically harmed, or when the actual cause of death is not specifically identified, those who carried out the abuse or stood by can be prosecuted. The defence of passing the blame will go. If I have had one regret during what I hope will be the speedy passage of the Bill, it is that the maximum sentence is only 10 years, but I accept that it is appropriate when other sentences are available and can be considered. Assuming that this is the last hurdle, I hope that the Bill’s progress through the other place is speedy.

9.36 am Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): In 2004, the previous Government introduced the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act. Section 5 was written to address a particular situation: a gap in the law dealing with cases when a child had died at the hands of one or other of its parents, or other members of the household, and no one would admit to what had been done. To be guilty of the offence, the household member must have either caused the death or failed to take reasonable steps to protect the victim. The NSPCC had campaigned on the issue, and the Law Commission did a great deal of work on it. While the 2004 Act was under consideration, there was a debate about whether the legislation should include serious harm cases and the point was made, both in this and the other place, that the term “serious harm” would need careful definition. Importantly, the then Government left the door open for the issue to be addressed again in the future. As the Minister at the time, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), said: “I do not rule out extending the offence at some time in the future. It is important, first, to put in place the new offence. Let us get that right first and see how the provision operates. If appropriate, we may return to the problem at a later date.”—[Official Report, 27 October 2004; Vol. 425, c. 1473.] 1181 Domestic Violence, Crime and 21 OCTOBER 2011 Domestic Violence, Crime and 1182 Victims (Amendment) Bill Victims (Amendment) Bill [Mr Wayne David] some changes in the definition of domestic violence that is used in that Bill. I am pleased to support the Bill Since the passage of the 2004 Act, between 2005 and this morning. 2008 alone the offence of causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult was used successfully to 9.42 am prosecute 17 people, notably baby P’s mother, boyfriend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice and lodger. It was clear that one of them caused Peter’s (Mr Crispin Blunt): My first duty is to congratulate the death, but the police could not prove which of them was hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). I think this is directly responsible. As a result, they were all found the first time that we have met across the Dispatch Box guilty of causing or allowing his death. following the reshuffle on the Opposition Benches, so I Crown Prosecution Service data suggest that there is welcome him to his place. I congratulate him on the now a need to extend the law to cover cases of serious crisp way in which he presented Her Majesty’s Opposition’s injury. In 2010, CPS prosecutors in six areas identified support for the Bill, following through on the support 20 potential cases involving children and three involving that his hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith vulnerable adults that could not be prosecuted under (Mr Slaughter) gave it in Committee. existing legislation, but which they believe could have I join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. been prosecuted under the proposed new offence. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) It is clearly time to return to the issue. That is why the on steering the Bill through the House to this stage. Opposition support the Bill introduced by the hon. This very worthwhile measure would provide increased Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford). We protection for children and vulnerable adults who are at congratulate him on all his assiduous work. The risk of serious physical harm from members of their Government suggested two amendments, which were own household, and it is a prime example of my hon. accepted by the hon. Gentleman. The amendments will Friend’s unstinting efforts to protect vulnerable people, strengthen the Bill and now, with cross-party support, I especially children, from harm. hope that this important measure will soon be on the I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member statute book and be implemented quickly. for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) about what makes an effective parliamentarian. My hon. Friend the 9.39 am Member for Mole Valley, who is my parliamentary neighbour, has had an outstanding wider political career, Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I shall first as leader of a London local authority, for which he not detain the House long, but I just want to express my was properly recognised by Her Majesty, then in this strong support for the Bill. I have only recently had the place, starting on the Back Benches and then as a great privilege of becoming a Member of Parliament, Minister with responsibility for local government, and and in the short time that I have been in this place I have after that, both in opposition and now, as an absolutely learned that some of the most effective parliamentarians unstinting champion of children at risk. Mr Speaker, I are those who do not appear on “Newsnight” every know that you, along with the rest of us, have a special night of the week and are not always twittering and place for my hon. Friend for the work that he has done. blogging and filling up the airwaves, but who quietly You will recognise, as we all do, that when Members and effectively champion causes from the Benches of take up a cause and drive forward on a narrow agenda, this House. Years and years of assiduous work for a it is remarkable how much progress they can make and cause can result in massive positive change for people’s how much influence they can bring to bear. The Bill— lives throughout the country. We see today that there is no greater exemplar than Sir Paul Beresford, who over Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister’s encomium to the many years has championed causes. hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) will Today a small gap in legislation is being filled and a be appreciated by the hon. Gentleman and by many problem tackled. That will lead to hugely beneficial Members of the House. Of course it is perfectly proper changes, which will protect many vulnerable children for the Minister to spend some time focusing on the from unspeakable abuse. We were all shocked when we contents of the Bill, which doubtless he will do, but it saw what happened to baby P and others around the would be very regrettable if the impression were to gain country. The measure will send a loud message that ground that he or others on the Treasury Bench were anybody who is caught perpetrating any of the crimes in any way reluctant to get on to the matters treated of covered by the Bill will be brought to justice and feel the in the Bill to be promoted by the hon. Member for full force of the law. I congratulate my hon. Friend and Shipley (Philip Davies) and I am sure that no such commend the Bill to the House. consideration is in the Minister’s mind. Mr Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Member—for Mr Blunt: You are of course entirely right, Mr Speaker. Mole Valley—will appreciate the tribute that has just No such thought had crossed my mind; indeed, I have been paid to him. taken rather a limited interest in today’s remaining business because this is the only item on which I have focused my attention. My hon. Friend the Member for 9.41 am Mole Valley is also my parliamentary neighbour, so I Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I too hope you will be kind enough to allow me the enthusiasm congratulate the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul with which I am able to present the Government’s Beresford) on pursuing this cause. I am happy to support support for the measure, and allow me to record my the Bill. The definition of domestic violence is relevant appreciation and that of the Government for the work not only to this Bill but to the Legal Aid, Sentencing that he has done in this regard. However, bearing in and Punishment of Offenders Bill—I hope this change mind your advice, Mr Speaker, I am happy to turn to will go through, just as I hope we may at some point see the Third Reading of the Bill before us. 1183 Domestic Violence, Crime and 21 OCTOBER 2011 Domestic Violence, Crime and 1184 Victims (Amendment) Bill Victims (Amendment) Bill Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): He’s got a lot of pre-existing risk of “serious physical harm” in subsection pages to get through. 5(1)(c) of the 2004 Act. The extended section 5 offence does not criminalise behaviour more broadly than is Mr Blunt: The hon. Gentleman says I have a lot of necessary. A broad offence that covered psychiatric pages to get through. Perhaps this is the moment to put harm, for example, could deter people from caring for on record my appreciation of the support that I have vulnerable adults because they fear being prosecuted received from staff in the Ministry of Justice, who have for failing to foresee a psychiatric injury. Similarly, helped my preparation and advised on the amendments restricting the modified procedures in clause 2 of the that were tabled to the Bill at an early stage and which Bill to the more serious offences that are likely to be my hon. Friend accepted in Committee, which improved tried with the extended section 5 offence is appropriate, the Bill and allowed it to enjoy Government support. given the extraordinary nature of the provisions. A As we have heard, the Bill’s purpose is twofold. It maximum penalty of 10 years’ imprisonment for causing extends the offence in section 5 of the Domestic Violence, or allowing serious physical harm is proportionate when Crime and Victims Act 2004 to include cases of causing we consider the maximum penalties for causing or or allowing serious physical harm to a child or vulnerable allowing death and for other offences of grievous bodily adult, and it applies evidential and procedural provisions harm. similar to those in section 6 of that Act to the extended Concerns have been expressed about potentially offence. Extending the law in this way was contemplated criminalising those who are themselves vulnerable, such when the original legislation was passed, and has continued as victims of domestic violence; indeed, those concerns to be urged since. The section 5 offence of causing or were raised during the passage of the 2004 Act, too. allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult broke However, it is important to bear in mind the high new ground, and the associated evidential and procedural threshold that must be met for an offence under section 5 provisions were controversial so a staged approach made to be made out. To prove the existing offence, it is good sense, but the existing provisions have worked as necessary to show that the defendant either caused the intended and we agree that the time is now right to death of the victim or allowed it by failing to take extend them. Cases in which it is clear that serious harm reasonable steps to protect the victim from a foreseeable suffered by a child or a vulnerable adult must have been risk of serious physical harm. What constitutes “reasonable sustained at the hands of one of a limited number of steps” will vary, depending on the circumstances of the members of a household should not founder because person and his or her relationship to the victim. The there is insufficient evidence to point to the particular court will take all the circumstances into account. person responsible. If one of the defendants has been the victim of, or a The crucial aspect of the section 5 offence is that the witness to, domestic violence, the steps that the defendant prosecution need not prove whether the defendant is could reasonably have been expected to take may be responsible for causing or allowing the victim’s death, more limited than the steps that someone not suffering so the defendant will be convicted of the same offence or witnessing that violence could reasonably have been whether he was personally responsible for the unlawful expected to take. Depending on the facts of the case, the act that killed the victim or if he was a member of the court may find that it was not reasonable for the defendant household that failed to take steps to protect the victim to take some of the steps that might otherwise have when he knew, or ought to have known, about the risk been available to them. The same principles will apply of harm that existed in that household. This means that to the extended offence. In other words, the offence will it is much harder for those co-accused of the death of a be sensitive to the circumstances in each case. child or vulnerable adult to evade justice by virtue simply of remaining silent or of blaming each other. As is the case with the existing offence, the extended The section 5 offence has been used successfully in a offence will not apply when the serious harm resulted number of cases, including the profoundly shocking from an accident. Nor will it apply when there was one one of baby Peter Connelly. specific known risk within a household, such as a violent or abusive person, but the child or vulnerable The section 5 offence is a serious stand-alone offence person suffered harm from a different cause. The offence that carries a high maximum penalty—14 years’ does not criminalise members of the household for imprisonment—but the aim was, and remains, that the allowing the serious harm if it was the result of an event person who caused the victim’s death should be identified that they could not have anticipated or avoided. The and convicted of murder or manslaughter, if appropriate. extended offence and procedures are intended, like the Those offences, of course, carry life sentences. Accordingly, existing ones, to be a fair and proportionate package of section 6 of the 2004 Act modified certain evidential measures. and procedural provisions in relation to alternative charges in trials involving the section 5 offence. The As hon. Members know, the Government are committed modified procedures apply when a defendant is charged to preventing the creation of unnecessary criminal offences. with the section 5 offence and with murder or manslaughter However, we consider the extension of the criminal law in the same proceedings relating to the same death. The in the relatively limited way proposed in the Bill to be procedures are intended to encourage defendants to justified and appropriate. In reaching that conclusion, give evidence, and to ensure that the more serious we have had regard to the possibility that those responsible charge remains available if, during the trial, evidence for very serious injury may escape conviction; the emerges of who was responsible for the death. The vulnerability of both child and adult victims; and the Government consider the extension of those principles special responsibility that members of the same household in the way proposed in the Bill appropriate and bear for the vulnerable with whom they live. proportionate to the harm being addressed. We have considered the evidence that is available on Restricting the extended section 5 offence to serious the harm that we are attempting to address by supporting physical harm is consistent with the need to show a this Bill. In 2010, chief Crown prosecutors in six Crown 1185 Domestic Violence, Crime and 21 OCTOBER 2011 Domestic Violence, Crime and 1186 Victims (Amendment) Bill Victims (Amendment) Bill [Mr Blunt] which, of course, will necessarily involve a minimum of two defendants. That is a broad estimate that makes Prosecution Service areas identified 20 potential cases assumptions about the volume of cases in the CPS involving children, and three involving vulnerable adults, areas that did not supply data, so the actual number of that could not be prosecuted under existing legislation, cases across the country could be larger or smaller. Of and that they believe could have been prosecuted under course, statistically, the size of the sample, as any statistician an extended section 5 offence, subject to the case meeting would make clear, brings its own level of unreliability to the two-stage test in the code for Crown prosecutors. the data. The data supplied to my hon. Friend indicate that The Government have examined the Bill’s financial over a three-year period from 2005-06 to 2007-08 there consequences for the Ministry of Justice, using two sets were 179 cases in which children suffered grievous bodily of data. The first set, to which I have referred, was harm. Sixty-nine cases involved more than one suspect provided by the Crown Prosecution Service and was in a “Which of you did it?” scenario, and did not result about the potential number of cases. Our estimate, in prosecution. According to the police, further scrutiny based on the CPS evidence, is that the annual cost to the of those 69 cases identified at least 39 in which prosecution Ministry of Justice of extending the section 5 offence would have been probable had the section 5 offence will be in the order of £20 million a year. That is not an been extended to include serious harm. That implies insignificant sum, but the measure will provide increased that there were about 13 cases a year over the past three protection for some of the most vulnerable members of years in London alone that would have been prosecuted society. That is why the Government have decided to under the extended section 5 offence. support my hon. Friend’s Bill. We have been unable to verify the data—indeed, the My hon. Friend produced for us another set of data, police have acknowledged that they were partly supplied by a former member of the London Metropolitan supposition—which did not cover vulnerable adults. police. Those data covered only children, rather than The CPS has looked at the papers provided by the children and vulnerable adults, caught by the Bill. They police, but they contain insufficient information either suggested that the cost impact of the extended offence to form a view on whether any of the cases could have would, in a steady state of affairs, be £10 million a year. been successfully prosecuted under an extended section 5 Having examined both sets of data, our view is that the offence or in getting them to the CPS case papers. cost is likely to be further towards £20 million a year, as However, the financial implications are not insignificant we believe that the CPS study is rather wider and more if the Government are to accept the measure in the comprehensive. There will inevitably be uncertainties current financial climate. The fact that we are prepared about the case load and the likely sentence length that to do so gives a sense of the importance that we attach will arise from the new, extended offence, but I have set to the measure and of our enthusiastic support for the out the basis of our assumption. Bill introduced by my hon. Friend. Members on both sides of the House have agreed to plug that particular The CPS data suggest that we are looking at around gap. 150 cases a year, subject to the uncertainty to which I You implicitly set me the challenge of managing to alluded. That forecast is based on the idea that the keep this going until 2.30 pm, Mr Speaker, but you will number of cases in 2010 will be representative of the see that I have only managed to stagger on until 10 number of cases going forward. The survey was undertaken o’clock. Plainly, I did not begin to speak with any other by chief Crown prosecutors in Sussex, Northumbria, intention, and it would be wholly improper to do otherwise. Merseyside, Norfolk, Hertfordshire and Thames Valley. At least the time at which I shall conclude will satisfy They were asked to identify the number of cases in 2010 you that I did not begin with any other intention. in which they had been unable to prosecute for grievous bodily harm or cruelty to a child, or grievous bodily Chris Bryant: Why stop then? harm to a vulnerable adult, because there was insufficient evidence on which of the members of a household who Mr Blunt: The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris were in frequent contact with the victim was responsible Bryant) tempts me, but I will ignore his remarks, as I for the injury. Those prosecutors identified a total of wish to conclude by congratulating my hon. Friend the 20 cases involving children, and three involving vulnerable Member for Mole Valley again, even at the risk of adults, that could not be prosecuted under any existing upsetting you, Mr Speaker, and by renewing my thanks legislation, and which they believe could be prosecuted to my officials in the Ministry of Justice who have under an extended section 5 offence, subject to the case assisted me in preparing the Government’s response to meeting the two-stage test in the code for Crown prosecutors. the debate. I am delighted to commend the Bill to the Those areas collectively account for 15% of national House, and I hope that its passage through another Crown Prosecution Service business. If we extrapolate place will be equally successful. from those data, we get to a national figure of potentially 133 cases involving children, and 20 cases involving Question put and agreed to. vulnerable adults. That is 153 cases in total, each of Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 1187 21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1188

Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): There Second Reading is a genuinely serious and interesting debate here. For instance, 30 years ago, racist jokes were a staple for 10.3 am stand-up comics, and it was the early stages of political correctness that made that unacceptable. Would my Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I beg to move, That the hon. Friend like to see the return of the racist joke? Bill be now read a Second time. There are two things that my Bill seeks to do. First, it Mr Speaker: If the Minister would turn round and seeks to prohibit affirmative or positive action by public address the Chamber, we would be grateful. authorities, and secondly, it seeks to repeal the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002, which Damian Green: Does my hon. Friend not agree that removed the selection of candidates from the usual laws the return of the racist joke as a comedy staple would be against discrimination, and legalised discrimination in unacceptable? He says that all forms of political correctness the form of all-women shortlists. are unacceptable, but does he not think that that is I believe in equality of opportunity and fair chances pushing it a bit too far? for all, which is why I am very much opposed to the concept of equality of outcome, which means fixing a Philip Davies: No, I do not. I do not accept that result before a process has begun. In the case of jobs, political correctness has helped with those things. I that can take the form of targets or quotas and, ironically, think that political correctness hinders the process of it means that there cannot be equality of opportunity. tolerance, as it builds up resentment that would not As a Conservative, and not a Marxist, that is something otherwise exist. I totally disagree with my hon. Friend, that I do not support. Without fair chances, there is no as I do not think that political correctness helps with fair system, and someone will always be discriminated tolerance: it breeds intolerance and resentment, which against. The Bill seeks to take away the obsession with is why I oppose it in all its forms. I am not here to equality of outcome, which has replaced equality of defend people who are intolerant of others, as that is opportunity and meritocracy. Just like democracy, unacceptable. Equally, I do not believe that people meritocracy has its imperfections, but it is by far the should be intolerant of people who happen to have a best option in the end. Social engineering and fixing different opinion from them, which we often see in processes are not right, as they have in-built, deliberate people who try to preach the language of tolerance. unfairnesses, and consequently, they are not only imperfect It is not a question of my supporting intolerant or but unjust. bigoted people, but I do believe in free speech. If we I should declare at the outset that I am the parliamentary believe in free speech, we have to believe that people spokesman for the Campaign Against Political Correctness, have a right to say things with which we disagree and an organisation that I commend to everyone. I can only which we may occasionally find offensive. That is the assume, Mr Speaker, it is only an oversight that so far whole principle of free speech. Free speech does not you are not a member. mean that people are free to say only the things with which we agree—that is a nonsensical definition. The Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Was the hon. Gentleman fact that I do not happen to agree with what somebody appointed or elected to that position? else says would not stop me defending their right to Philip Davies: I think that I was given the position on say it. merit, and I certainly was not given the job because I The Bill specifically tackles one of the worst forms of am a man. I do not think that I was given it because political correctness, which is institutionalised political I am white. I would like to think that I was given the correctness. The Bill prohibits the use of affirmative or position on merit. Most Members know my views on positive action by local authorities. So-called equality political correctness. and diversity measures have taken over where common sense used to prevail. The tick-box mentality has far- Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As my hon. reaching tentacles in our schools, hospitals and emergency Friend will be aware, many new Members may not services. Everywhere we look there is evidence of this know those views, so perhaps he would like to enlighten obsession. them. My opposition to the whole equality and diversity Philip Davies: It is unlike my hon. Friend to be so off agenda is, first, that it is total nonsense in its own right. the ball as not to know my views on political correctness, The terms “equality”and “diversity”have no real meaning, but for his benefit, I make it perfectly clear that I abhor and they do not necessarily sit comfortably together. all forms of political correctness, the restriction of free Secondly, such measures are highly discriminatory and speech, and the way in which we try to rig jobs to get a do not sit well with those being discriminated against particular outcome. I believe in merit, and that merit or, perhaps less obviously, with those supposedly benefiting alone is the best form of action. Political correctness from the discrimination. Thirdly, they are responsible annoys the vast majority of the public, but it is not only for increasing, not decreasing, racism and sexism, in my the silly things. People concentrate on them, but it is the opinion. Fourthly, they are a total and utter waste of sinister side of political correctness that I do not like, our money. including the erosion of free speech and people being So-called equality and diversity is nonsense because made to feel that they are some kind of bigot or are we are told that it is all about being representative and xenophobic simply because they express opinions that that it is essential for organisations and businesses to other people do not hold. That is why it is time for the reflect the community they serve. It is rather patronising silent majority to stop being silent and stand up against to think that the rules have to be rigged to enable the scourge of political correctness. women or ethnic minorities to get a job. People from 1189 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1190

[Philip Davies] Apart those whom one would expect to oppose equality and diversity measures, there are many others whom ethnic minorities and women are more than capable those who push political correctness would rather sweep and are sufficiently talented to get a job in competition under the carpet, as their views are inconvenient to the with people who are men and white, on a fair and argument. transparent basis. They do not need to have the rules rigged in their favour in order to get jobs, and it is Mr Nuttall: On a couple of occasions my hon. Friend patronising to suggest that they do. has referred to political correctness. Will he provide the The people who are really racist and sexist in this House with a definition of the term? country are the ones who see everything in terms of race and gender. I do not. The gender, religion and Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a good point. sexuality of the person applying for a job should be Political correctness is one of those things that is very irrelevant. difficult to define, but people know it when they see it. I will have a go for my hon. Friend. I would say that political correctness is the promotion of positive Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Why does the discrimination and the restriction of free speech carried hon. Gentleman think women are so under-represented out in the name of minorities, but usually initiated by in senior positions in industry? white male middle-class lentil-eating sandal-wearing Guardian-reading do-gooders with too much time on Philip Davies: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I their hands and a misguided guilt complex. My hon. will come to that later. He raises an important issue and Friend may have a better definition and I am happy for I will tackle it directly. If he feels that I have not done him to offer one. That is my initial stab at a definition of so, I invite him to come back to me later and I will have political correctness. another stab at it for him. The idea of businesses and organisations reflecting Mr Nuttall: Is it true to say, then, that the political the community they serve is nonsense. A certain proportion correctness agenda is not set by those whom the white of our local communities are criminals. A certain proportion middle-class males seek to “protect”? of people are sent to prison. Are we really saying that, because it is so important that all organisations and all Philip Davies: That is my experience. Most of these businesses reflect the community they serve, a certain measures are not perpetrated by the people whom they proportion of every organisation should be made up of are supposed to help. On many occasions the people in criminals because they make up a certain proportion of whose name it is supposedly done are the ones who feel the population? That is nonsense. Nobody seriously most patronised by it and find it most unhelpful. I believes that every organisation should reflect the encourage my hon. Friend to go to the website community it serves. That is just trite. www.capc.co.uk which gives some examples. There is a section there called “Not In My Name” where many Nobody—and I mean nobody—who I know is remotely people say how unhelpful such measures are for those in concerned when white men are under-represented, so their situation, whether they are people who are gay, the issue is not really one of equality and diversity at all. women, disabled or from an ethnic minority. There are The aim is to make some people more equal than countless such examples. others. To illustrate the point, I note that there seem to be very few male midwives about, yet nobody, to my Mr David: The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting knowledge, has seriously suggested in the House that argument. Does he believe that, in society, freedom of there should be positive action to try and ensure that speech should allow anything to be said, or does he 50% of midwives are male. Similarly, the number of think there must be some limits—some restrictions—in white men, or indeed women, who work in Indian order to ensure freedom? restaurants up and down the country is not an issue, nor should it be. The first thing that crosses my mind Philip Davies: My view about freedom of speech is when I go into a south Asian restaurant is how good the that anything should be able to be said, except—the law chicken madras is and how well it has been cooked, not is very good on this—for example, something encouraging what sex or ethnicity the waiters and chef are. That is someone to violence. That is unacceptable. It is clearly the way it should be. criminal. But people should be able to express an opinion, whether I happen to agree with it or not. If we go down Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Has the line of saying that there are certain things that the hon. Gentleman looked at what percentage of people people should not be allowed to say, we face the question who apply to be midwives are men, and what percentage who decides that. Who decides what people are allowed of men subsequently get a post? or not allowed to say? Whose values do we accept? The hon. Gentleman may be content that everything he says Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely falls within the parameters of what is allowed, but what good point. I will deal with it later. One of the things happens when he wants to say something that someone that my Bill tries to repeal is the legislation providing else has deemed not permissible? for all-women shortlists. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman When we have got to the stage, as we have in this might like to ask himself the same question when it country, where ordinary decent people are petrified comes to the number of women MPs—how many of about what they say in case some zealot somewhere those people put themselves forward to become MPs, down the line take offence at it, which is the situation against the number who are selected. He may find the that many of our constituents find themselves in, we answer to his own question in that conundrum. have a problem. For the country that is for ever going 1191 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1192 round the world trying to promote freedom, we should I believe that people are appalled, and rightly so, be well aware that some of our constituents feel that when they hear that a white person has been turned freedom of speech is being eroded under our noses. down for a job because of the colour of their skin. The It is telling that we are very precious in the House same people would be appalled if anyone, whatever about the fact that we are allowed to say anything in the their ethnicity, was turned down for a job simply because House and we cannot be taken to a court of law on the of the colour of their skin. When that happens, it basis of what we have said in the House. Our freedom of inevitably leads some people wrongly to conclude that speech is totally and utterly protected. The hon. Gentleman the benefiting group in question has asked for this can say something incredibly controversial and he cannot special treatment. As I made clear earlier, that is not the be taken to court on the basis of what he said. However, case at all. Some politically correct do-gooder has tried he seems to be suggesting that he should be able to say to do the right thing or, as is increasingly the case and anything he wants in here but that everyone else, including perhaps more worryingly, someone is trying to comply his constituents, should be subject to some kind of state with equality law. control over what they can and cannot say. That is not Speaking for the Liberal democrats on the Second the kind of country I want to live in, even if it is the Reading of the Equality Bill, the hon. Member for kind he wants to live in. Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), now Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman slightly overestimates the Minister for Equalities, said: the value of freedom of speech in the House. It is true “I turn to positive action. It seems completely illogical that we that a Member could, in theory, say absolutely anything, should be allowed to fast-track the training of ethnic minority but you, Mr Speaker, would upbraid them if they and women police, but not be allowed to fast-track their employment. The rebalancing of the workplace is hugely important, and I do misused or abused that freedom, as happened earlier not disagree with the Leader of the House’s vision of the bank this year with a Liberal Democrat Member. There are boardrooms of the future. When both the genders make a decision, also things that we are simply not allowed to talk about it is likely to be more balanced.”—[Official Report, 11 May 2009; in the House, most notably the royal family and their Vol. 492, c. 581.] activities. That is just the sort of thing that winds people up. If Philip Davies: That is a separate issue, but the hon. people want real equality, it must be just that, not some Gentleman has made his point. groups being more equal than others. What has a young, The point my hon. Friend the Member for Bury white male ever done to deserve being turned away from North (Mr Nuttall) made about how the people political a dream career in the police force simply because he is correctness is supposed to benefit do not actually feel the wrong colour and the wrong gender? the benefit has also been made by Anjana Ahuja. Writing in The Times, she explains how her opinion was once Mr Nuttall: That is a very important point, because it sought by the newspaper’s executives on how to attract seems to me that, where positive discrimination is being non-white writers. The paper planned to offer internships exercised, young, white males are today paying a price to ethnic minority candidates who had graduated in for the fact that their forefathers were not subject to media studies. She says: those measures in years gone by. Why should that be so? “It was well intentioned but misguided, I ventured, because I knew of no colleague whose passport to these venerable corridors Philip Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good had been secured by such questionable means. There were historians, point. Perhaps we also ought to reflect on the fact that linguists, lawyers, classicists, philosophers, biologists, physicists, in many parts of the country the people who are finding even an Egyptologist—but no media studies graduates. My view it most difficult to get a job are young, white males from was this: if a brown writer sails in on an easier ticket than a white wordsmith, The Times would be construed as patronising rather very poor and deprived backgrounds. They are among than progressive and the intern would struggle against whispers those who are finding it hardest to find employment. It of lowered standards…which is why, in the miserable tale of Ali must be a double kick in the teeth for them to find that Dizaei, the Scotland Yard commander convicted of corruption, they are denied the opportunity to attend a fire service the fact that sticks out most is the continued, seemingly pointless open day simply because they happen to be white. I and possibly harmful existence of the National Black Police really do not know why on earth we should we have a Association. Substitute ‘black’ with ‘white’ and an outdated collective Government who are prepared to sit and tolerate that becomes an illegal organisation that is morally impossible to defend. Why partition members of the same profession along the kind of thing. lines of skin colour? I would not join an organisation for black journalists (or female ones) because its identity lies wholly in the Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend think that those exclusion of white hacks (or male ones).” feelings may have played a part in the riots that took Batook Pandya, director of Bristol-based charity Support place this summer? Against Racist Incidents, has said of a positive action scheme that meant that fire service open days were Philip Davies: I am not sure about that, to be honest, limited to ethnic minority recruits only: because it is very difficult to know. As far as I am “None of these open days should have been closed to white concerned, the riots were largely born out of opportunism communities. I couldn’t give two hoots if they are white, black, and criminality. I would not like to provide any kind of Asian, male or female—they should simply be the best person for excuse for the behaviour we saw, but I do not doubt that the job.” many people feel a resentment and frustration that Roshan Doug, writing in the Birmingham Post, has would otherwise not exist. I do not know whether the stated: riots had anything to do with it, but I certainly think “I don’t want people promoted purely on the basis of the colour of their skin—call it ‘positive discrimination’ or something that the worrying increase in support for the British else. To me that’s rather patronising—as if Asians and blacks are National party in recent years was born out of such a little more than token staff to appease the CRE… I would like frustration. It is no good Members complaining about to see the best men and women for the job.” the rise of such wholly unacceptable parties and then 1193 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1194

[Philip Davies] Those people descend on others like a ton of bricks, because, although they believe in equality and diversity, pursuing policies that are meat and drink to those they do not believe in the equality or diversity of other parties. If we are to stop people voting for the BNP, we people’s opinions; everyone has to agree with them on must remove the frustrations that led them to do so in being against such things; otherwise, they are not entitled the first place. to that opinion at all. It always amazes me how such The cost of all these equality and diversity plans, people, who always preach tolerance and diversity, are action points, schemes and training courses is immeasurable, so intolerant of other people when they have an opinion but one thing we can be sure about is that they cost an that differs from theirs. awful lot of money. I would always oppose such needless I prefer the person who drafted the advert for the expenditure, but at a time when people are losing their Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University NHS Trust, jobs, having to tighten their belts massively and fearing who at the end of it wrote: what the future holds, it is even more inconceivable that “Usual rubbish about equality, equal opportunities employer so much money is thrown down the drain each year in etc.” the public sector on the equality and diversity agenda. That just about sums it up perfectly. The Government Equalities Office spent a whopping £62 million in the year to March 2011, and other Mr Nuttall: I appreciate that my hon. Friend, for Government Department have their own equality budgets reasons that I know not, opposed last week’s motion to on top of that. That is before we get on to local police allow electronic hand-held devices in the Chamber, but forces, hospitals, fire brigades and schools, which all one great advantage of now being allowed such devices have to spend their money on equality and diversity is that I was able immediately to follow his advice, go to measures, taking it away from front-line services. www.capc.co.uk and access the website of the Campaign To give one example, the North East Ambulance Against Political Correctness. On it, there can be found Service NHS Trust is looking for an equality and diversity the “Not in my name” section, where Bolaji Alajija, a manager, with a salary of between £30,460 and £40,157 42-year-old student nurse from north London, says: pro rata. The job description is “to act as a lead within “I don’t see why there is all the fuss. What’s the harm in having the trust on the implementation of our equality strategy a black doll? It’s exactly the same as a white doll. People shouldn’t and action plan. The successful applicant will have a be so sensitive.” key role in developing the trust’s approach to the new NHS equality and delivery system.” Who in their right Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I mind could think that an equality and diversity manager remind Members that, although they are allowed to use in an NHS ambulance service is a priority at this time, iPads, they have to make a speech without continuously compared with a nurse or another ambulance driver? reading from them. I am sure Mr Nuttall will take that When someone dials 999, they want an ambulance, not on board. an equality and diversity officer. What on earth is there to consider for the ambulance service? Surely if someone Philip Davies: I am very grateful for your guidance, is injured they are looked after irrespective of their Mr Deputy Speaker, particularly as someone who voted gender and race. It is all a load of nonsense. against allowing these wretched things to be used in There is another such vacancy, at the University of debates. If anyone was ever going to convince me that I Greenwich, which is selecting someone to be its Equality made the wrong decision in that vote, however, it is my and Diversity Champion, salary approximately £40,000— hon. Friend, who has gone to an excellent website, and I well, at least students now know where their tuition fees certainly commend him for doing so. are going. The job description states: The second part of my Bill tackles the Sex Discrimination “You will be responsible for promoting an integrated approach (Election Candidates) Act 2002. I was not a Member to equality and diversity issues across the university, and provide when the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Bill Schools and Offices with a point of expert reference and guidance was debated, but it will come as no surprise to you, on equality and diversity issues. Youwill work with other university Mr Deputy Speaker, to know that had I been I would offices to continue to improve our performance as an employer have definitely opposed it. I have a great deal of time for and further develop disability access for staff. You will be an many of my female Conservative colleagues, we have experienced equality professional with an ability to develop and some extremely able MPs and, for the record, I have implement policy.” excellent female staff. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the greatest Prime Minister this country has ever Mr Nuttall: Would my hon. Friend like to venture had was, indeed, a woman, but I do not particularly how anybody could become qualified as an “experienced care if the House is made up of 10% women or 90%. equality professional”? It rather suggests that there For me, that will never be an issue, so the fundamental must be a whole career path for equality officers. premise of the 2002 Act will always be totally flawed. The most important thing for me is not how many Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right, and that is men or women are in Parliament, but how many part of the problem we now face, because the equality Conservatives there are in Parliament, and I challenge and diversity industry—that is what is now is: an anybody who is obsessed with the idea that the most industry—is incredibly powerful. There is now a huge important end in itself is that we have more women in lobby, and so many people’s jobs depend on the industry, Parliament. If, for example, a Conservative male fought that it is difficult to tackle, because as soon as anybody a marginal seat against a Labour female, would any of tries to argue against the point of such things, those my hon. Friends campaign for her on the basis that it people descend on them. My hon. Friend may well find was so important to get more women into Parliament, that, and I am sure I will at some point. or would they campaign for him? I venture that they 1195 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1196 would campaign for him, because I am sure that for all not… If I had been in a selection committee anteroom with two Government Members, apart from of course the Liberal men who had got there by beating off all the competition yet I Democrats, it is far more important to have more was only there because a place had been reserved for a woman on Conservatives in Parliament than to be worried about the shortlist, I would not feel helped. I would feel humiliated, insulted and patronised. I am glad to say that my party never how many MPs there are of a particular gender. did that to me. —[Official Report, 24 October 2001; Vol. 373, During the Bill’s Second Reading on 24 October c. 352-53.] 2001, almost 10 years ago to the day, my right hon. The fact of fewer women MPs is always blamed on Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), now discrimination, but in reality—certainly in the Conservative the Home Secretary, said: party—at the time of the Bill’s discussion roughly the “I shall be honest with the House. There was a time when I same proportion of women who applied for seats were never thought that I would stand up in the Chamber and support selected. The lack of women MPs is, therefore, much such a Bill.”—[Official Report, 24 October 2001; Vol. 373, c. 334.] more to do with the fact that they do not put themselves I wish she had stuck to her earlier opinion, as it would forward. have been the more Conservative thing to do. As India Knight put it so well: While my right hon. Friend supported the Bill, the “I’ll tell you what the issue is with women in business or former Member for Maidstone and the Weald, Ann women and work”— Widdecombe, did not. In the debate, she said: and this deals with the point that the hon. Member for “The Bill is fundamentally wrong. I must ask this question; are Caerphilly (Mr David) made earlier— all the men in this place sound asleep? Do they realise what the Bill means for them? Have they thought that positive discrimination “It is extremely simple. It is not to do with sexist dinosaur male for women can entail negative discrimination for men?” bosses or with male-dominated industries crushing our genius. It is not to do with glass ceilings. It is to do, very straightforwardly, The irony is that, as those in the House at the time were with the number of hours we are prepared to put in. If you’re already Members, they did not need to worry about happy to work a 16-hour day and never see your children, you too candidates, so the Bill was effectively about kicking can become a master of the universe…. Few women are prepared away the ladder of opportunity from men who had not to make that kind of sacrifice. This is entirely their right and good yet reached the House. I wonder how those Members on them. However, it is surely both dishonest and intensely stupid would have felt if they had been told, “Sorry, I know to apportion blame—in the form of so-called corporate you would make an excellent MP, but we’re going to discrimination—to what is essentially a completely personal choice: power versus being there at bath time, conferences versus the stop you applying for the seat that you’ve lived in all park, business trips versus getting home in time for homework, your life, because you happen to be a man.” How would giving ‘110%’ versus sleeping more than five hours a night.” any men present today have felt if such a rule had The words of India Knight address the point made by applied to them? the shadow Minister. Ann Widdecombe also hit the nail on the head, when during the debate she asked: The 2002 Act was supposed to be temporary, and apparently was supported on that basis. I do not know “What would that mean for a man in that constituency who many “temporary” things that have run for more than a had given to his local council the same lifelong service that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Helen Jackson)— decade. As things stand, the Act has a further two decades to go, it having been granted a massive “temporary” at the time— extension in the recent Equality Act. gave to hers”? Some people will say that we need more women MPs so that we can be more representative and so that Mr Nuttall: I had the honour of standing against the women’s issues can be addressed better. That is utter then Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough in 1997. Does rubbish. It is ridiculous to suggest that women are more my hon. Friend agree that she was able to succeed in a likely to be better represented by women and that men northern, working-class city without any positive are better represented by men. I am very proud of the discrimination whatever? fact that I represent all my constituents—men or women— equally and to the best of my ability. I suspect—although Philip Davies: Absolutely. My hon. Friend is entirely I do not know for sure—that just as many women voted right. People such as Helen Jackson made their way to for me at the general election in Shipley as did men. Parliament on merit alone, and they should be commended for that. I am sure that they would not have wanted it Mr Nuttall: Can my hon. Friend confirm that he also any other way. represents constituents of all races equally, despite being Ann Widdecombe went on to say: a white man himself? “Let us say that the man had worked there and escaped from there, and that he wanted to apply for the seat when it fell vacant. Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and He would not be able to represent the constituency if all-women that applies to all hon. Members. We treat all of our shortlists were in operation. constituents equally and we represent all of them to the “That would be the reality for men under this pernicious Bill, best of our ability, irrespective. yet hon. Gentlemen welcome it as a great step forward. It is a massive step towards inequality for men, and the poor souls just It is interesting that we keep hearing about “women’s let the women walk all over them. They do not appear to care issues” as this seems rather sexist and patronising. What what will happen to them.” are “women’s issues”? Many issues that are tagged as And Miss Widdecombe also said: so-called women’s issues are also important to men. I “I can tell the hon. Gentleman that when I entered a constituency have often heard that education is a women’s issue, but selection committee and saw that most of the people there were I would have thought that education was a family issue women, my heart used to sink. We should not get the idea that and was of just as much interest to men and fathers as discrimination against women is performed solely by men. It is to women and mothers. 1197 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1198

[Philip Davies] Tom Brake: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there are always exceptions to any rule? I venture that the issues that a Conservative woman is concerned about are more closely aligned with the issues that a Conservative man is concerned about than Philip Davies: The point is that women can—although they are with the issues that concern a Labour woman. not in his party or in the Labour party. In our party, The idea that certain issues are women’s issues is patronising almost 40 years ago, a woman was quite capable of and wrong. getting to the top on merit alone. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman thinks that the women in his party have not been good enough to lead his party— Mr David: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that sex discrimination exists in our society, or does he think Tom Brake: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will that somehow everybody exists in absolute equality? know that I am not of that view. I would also like to point out that in Wales the leader of the Liberal Democrats Philip Davies: I have clearly been speaking in Swahili is a woman. for the past half an hour. Yes, there is still sex discrimination, and it exists in the Act that my Bill is attempting to Philip Davies: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the repeal. My Bill would make it illegal to have any form of women in his party are more than capable of being sex discrimination. If that is the hon. Gentleman’s leader, why have they not become leader? Is he saying agenda, I presume that he will support my Bill in the that his party is sexist and does not allow women to Lobby, because it would prevent any positive action or become leader even though they are good enough to be discrimination. It would guarantee that there would be leader? If he is saying that, he should not tarnish the no sex discrimination at all. Jobs would be given on Conservatives’ reputation by trying to impose ridiculous merit alone. I therefore look forward to his support in laws. He should tackle the sexism in his own party the Lobby later. instead, if that is why he supports this nonsense. The argument that all of this is optional, and that no Margaret Thatcher was leader of the Conservative party is forced to discriminate, is also nonsense. All party—the very party that is constantly accused of parties in favour of bringing the law in were obviously sexism and appears to want to beat itself up about highly likely to use it once it was passed. I am sad to say it—more than a third of a century ago. It gets even that on some occasions even the Conservative party better, because she was clear, years after leaving office, appears to have fallen into this socialist trap. that all-women shortlists should be avoided. In her Some people will say that it is all very well my giving book on statecraft she says that my views on this issue, because—as a white male—I “the use of quotas applying to the appointment or promotion of have had it really easy. But I agree with Kenan Malik individuals because of their collective identity or background is who says: an unacceptable incursion on freedom, however well-intentioned “I reject identity-based representation not only because the the motives. Nor does it help those who are its intended beneficiaries. idea that one should be represented only by one’s own kind is, and Individuals from these groups may well feel patronised; their always has been, at the heart of the racist agenda, but also professional reputations in posts which they would anyway have because such representation acts as an obstacle to what you call ‘a attained on merit are diminished, because they are thought to genuinely participatory democracy’.” occupy them by special privilege; and they are likely to become targets of resentment and possibly even ill-treatment.” I always find it strange that people can say that they are If any male Members are still in favour of all-women not sexist and racist, but happily support measures and shortlists I say what I have always said to them—“Come notions that are just that. on. Do the honourable thing and, instead of shafting The public’s view of all-women shortlists is also clear. other men who are trying hard to get into this place, put At the 2005 general election Labour lost one of its your money where your mouth is. If it is so important safest seats, Blaenau Gwent, because of the party’s to you that you want to support legalised discrimination, politically correct obsession with all-women shortlists. go ahead, resign your seat so a woman can be selected Those who voted in the election were not just men: it in your place.” That is the best thing that proponents was clearly offensive to women too. Where does it all of this approach could do, but it is amazing how few of end—quotas and targets for people based on their them are prepared to do it. They are not so keen that sexuality, their eyesight, their hair colour or their star there should be more women in Parliament that they sign? If not, why not? Why limit it to just gender and are prepared to make space themselves to allow a race? Why not go the whole hog and have discrimination woman in—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda based on people’s background or hair colour or any of (Chris Bryant) says that I am talking drivel, but I look these other things? forward to him resigning his seat the moment the House I wish to play my trump card against opponents of rises so that a woman can take his place. Or is it that this part of my Bill, and that is Baroness Thatcher. No women should represent only other constituencies, not whingeing, relaying of statistics, bleating on about unfair his? Until hon. Gentlemen are prepared to take that treatment or complaining about sexism can explain step, I am afraid that people will see through it as away Margaret Thatcher. Not only did she get selected gesture politics of the worst possible kind. as a candidate, which is apparently so difficult for People can say I am misguided, that I am missing women without this House rigging the rules in their something, that I need to be educated on the benefits of favour, but she managed to become a Minister and, as positive action and positive discrimination—but what we all know, a long-serving and excellent Conservative would they say to all the people I quoted, who are from Prime Minister. the very groups that equality and diversity moves are 1199 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1200 supposed to help? Would they say that those people outlaw the recruitment of women into convents because were wrong and that they just do not get it, either, they were nuns and not men, or perhaps rugby players whatever “it” is? should now be hired not on the basis that they are This is a case of the emperor having no clothes. Most trained, fit, male athletes, but that they are women. Members want to be seen to be in favour of nice-sounding The very first pamphlet I ever wrote as a political ideals, and many confuse political correctness with doing activist— the right thing. They do not want to be the ones to say that they do not get the whole equality and diversity Mr Nuttall: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? agenda or, worse still, that it is having a negative effect on race relations and good community cohesion. I, however, am prepared to say that the emperor has no Mr MacShane: May I just make my points, and then clothes. The whole concept of equality and diversity is, I will give way? I do not mean to be discourteous, but I at best, a mistaken attempt to pursue a fantastical idea want to be brief because I am conscious that other of equality, but, at worst, a dangerous piece of social people want to speak on other issues. engineering that encourages and praises discrimination The very first political pamphlet I wrote in 1978 was against certain groups of people based on things they an appeal to the BBC and other media organisations to cannot change. hire journalists who were not white—at the time, we I do not believe that this is the right thing, and I would say they were from the Asian or Afro-Caribbean certainly do not believe that it is a fair thing—and I am community—because there was not a single byline reporter not alone. There are many, many people who agree with or presenter of that description on TV, despite the fact me. In an ICM poll, a massive 80% of people in Britain that by then we had hundreds of thousands, if not said that they were fed up with political correctness. more, among our fellow British citizens and journalists Members will be delighted to hear that the poll was I worked with, but in subordinate roles for which they completely representative and covered a very diverse had been able to offer themselves. I am glad, 30 years range of people. The vast majority of people in all later, that that is not the case. We do not have a categories said they were fed up with political correctness, mono-coloured BBC or ITV or bylines in all our great including women and people from all ethnic origins. newspapers evidently comprising only sturdy British Britain can truly hold its head up and say that it is not citizens. racist or sexist only when people are given jobs on merit, and merit alone. People should be given jobs Philip Davies rose— regardless of their sex, age, race or sexual orientation, not because of any of these factors. This Bill gives the Mr MacShane: If it is on that point, of course I give House a chance to vote for something that can undo way to the hon. Gentleman. one of the biggest inequalities around. It can vote to reintroduce fairness, to remove the clear injustice of equality of outcome in the name of equality and diversity, Philip Davies: It appears that the right hon. Gentleman and to promote real equal opportunities for all. I commend has form in this regard. He was a white journalist who the Bill to the House. was insistent that somebody else should have to give up their job in order to make way for somebody from an ethnic minority, but apparently he was not volunteering 10.52 am to fall on his own sword. Now he is advocating that we Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I have been should have more women in Parliament, and yet he still following the speech by the hon. Member for Shipley refuses to fall on his sword to help to make that happen. (Philip Davies) very closely and taking a considerable If he feels so strongly about it, why does he not have the number of notes. Unfortunately, I had to deal with courage of his convictions, put his money where his something in my office but, alas, I could repeat almost mouth is, and start doing the right thing? word for word what he has said; however, I will not. In my 17 years in the Commons, this is the most Mr MacShane: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. I reactionary, right-wing, regressive Bill ever put to this did fall on my sword, in the sense that the BBC made House in a serious speech. The hon. Gentleman will me do so by liberating me from its employment at the probably take that as a compliment. However, there is time. Whether I was replaced by a journalist from the something more profoundly serious at stake, because he black and minority ethnic community, I do not know. represents a growing view within his party that the The point is that we expanded journalism, and yes, we minor progress that we have made on equality in recent went in for positive discrimination in the sphere of years has gone too far and should be reversed. The broadcasting, and I am very glad about that. Certainly, whole history of British legislation is precisely to use when the time comes for me to leave my position as MP the power of Government and state to redress imbalances for Rotherham, I will be delighted if there is an all-women and unfairnesses, first, between those who did and did shortlist. The real question that the hon. Gentleman’s not have the vote—between the aristocracy and the party has to ask is why, even with the all the people put non-noblemen in our communities—and, over time, on to the A-list, there are still so few women sitting on through other positive action to ensure that there was the Conservative Benches. full equality for all. Some of the hon. Gentleman’s proposals are ridiculous. Mr Nuttall rose— He suggests that there can be no “affirmative or positive action” in order to help people depending on their Mr MacShane: I will take just one more intervention, “sex”—I think he means gender. Presumably, that would because I want to make my contribution very short. 1201 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1202

Mr Nuttall: Going back to the question of rugby On positive action, I think it is entirely appropriate players, does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that that, over a number of years, the Metropolitan police women’s rugby is a very popular sport? have taken measures to try to ensure that the police force in London is representative of London’s communities. Mr MacShane: Women’s rugby and football, and I think that that makes them more effective and more other sports, are very popular. On the strict reading of acceptable to the public as a whole. the Bill, it would be illegal for Rotherham, Wasps or On the point about midwives, the hon. Member for Harlequins not to entertain the notion of a woman Shipley (Philip Davies) needs to consider whether there rugby player, but I do not want to go too far down that is a significant number of men who apply to be midwives road. and are refused on the basis of their gender, or whether The notion that I find exceptionally offensive is that men simply do not apply for those positions because we make no efforts to help people with disabilities. We they prefer to apply for others. are facing thousands of people being fired from Remploy The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Liberal Democrat because of the wicked actions of the governing party. party. Clearly, it is a source of some embarrassment to These are people who will find it incredibly difficult to my party that we have failed to secure the election of get jobs elsewhere in the normal labour market. Quite any members of black and ethnic minority communities rightly, in the 1940s, after the war, we honoured our war to Parliament. veterans by saying that those who came out of the war with particular disabilities could work in normal jobs and have the dignity of labour rather than living on Mr Nuttall: Will my right hon. Friend give way? handouts and the dole—but according to this wretched Bill, that, too, would be illegal. Tom Brake: In a minute; I will just finish my point. On religion, we had an interesting discussion this It is also a source of embarrassment that the Liberal week in Education questions about whether Cardinal Democrat Benches do not have a more representative Vaughan school in London can maintain its Catholic balance of men and women. identity or, as some might wish, should no longer do so. I think that my many Jewish friends would find it very Mr Nuttall: I am most grateful to my right hon. offensive, but oh so typical of the chauvinist, nationalist Friend for giving way. He is making some important spirit that now reigns in the Conservative party, that points. I urge him and his colleagues not to feel embarrassed they cannot define who comes into their schools on the if they have arrived at this place on merit. There is no basis of religion. reason to feel embarrassed for that. The whole balance of legislation, going back to the abolition of the slave trade and Lord Shaftesbury stopping Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that children going up chimneys, was precisely to alter law to intervention. I would like to think that we have all give particular protection to people who would otherwise arrived here on merit. The issue is that there are obstacles be unfairly exploited on the grounds of their socio-economic that often prevent others from arriving here on merit. status. I find it profoundly distressing that in October He will know that, in politics, it is often helpful to have 2011 we are seriously being asked to rip up every decent a network of people within a political party whom one parliamentary value that we and our predecessors have knows and who are supportive. Often, women candidates fought for over the years. or those from BME communities do not have the networks to help them progress in a political career. As he knows, This is a Friday morning debate, and we all know that there are other issues, such as financial issues. Anyone these Bills never go anywhere, but this Bill is symptomatic who wants to be a parliamentary candidate requires a of the entire approach of the Conservative party. The certain amount of funding to support their political Conservatives are refusing to support the International campaigning. That is not available to all. Labour Organisation convention on domestic workers because that, too, is aimed at giving a little bit of I welcome the fact that the Liberal Democrat party protection to people of a particular socio-economic has a leadership programme that aims to support women and sex, or gender, status who are facing the most candidates and those from BME communities, to ensure appalling exploitation in this and in other countries. that they are better prepared and better supported— Conservative Front Benchers have nothing to do with financially, if necessary—so that they can compete on this Bill, of course, but the hon. Gentleman speaks for merit with other candidates. much of today’s Conservative party. That is why the quicker it is replaced in government by a party or Mr Nuttall: Would those funds be available to a parties that support the standards and best values of young, aspiring, white, male politician from a working-class Britain, the better. background or who is on benefits? Tom Brake: I am grateful for that intervention, because 10.59 am the hon. Gentleman has given me the opportunity to Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I have confirm that that support is available to the sort of listened carefully to what has been said in the debate, person he describes. That is because we recognise that because I knew that it would be enlightening. I will people from poorer socio-economic backgrounds struggle make a few short points. to get elected as Members of Parliament. Of course I agree that people should secure employment and be promoted on merit. Unfortunately, often that is Philip Davies: The right hon. Gentleman is hitting the not enough to secure equal opportunity. Some people, nub of the issue. Does he think that the Conservative such as Baroness Thatcher, may be exceptions to the party, for example, would be much more diverse if it rule, but very few people are exceptions to rules. replaced Rupert from Kensington and Chelsea with 1203 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1204

Jessica from Kensington and Chelsea, which is what the match equality with fairness. Sometimes, when one is legislation he is defending seeks to do? Does he not trying to achieve equality, which might be fairer in one think that it would make the party more diverse to regard, one ends up with another form of unfairness. replace Rupert from Kensington and Chelsea with George The hon. Gentleman, in the way that he styled his from Newcastle? That point is not addressed by the comments and in the way that he styles his politics, runs legislation that he is defending. away too much from the desire for genuine equality in society. I will raise with him some work that was done a Tom Brake: If the hon. Gentleman will excuse me, I few years ago. It showed that if there are two five-year-olds will allow him to push for the particular balance that he with the same IQ, in so far as IQ can be measured at the would like to see in the Conservative party. age of five, and one is in a family where the household The hon. Gentleman gave a description of people earns more than £50,000 and the other is in a household who worry about equality and diversity issues, which I that earns less than £15,000, five years later—this is thought was quite an accurate description in some quite frightening—the two 10-year-olds will not have respects of those who are obsessed with political correctness. the same IQ; the child in the richer family will have a He said that they tend to be white, male and have too higher IQ. Labour Members are passionate about ensuring much time on their hands. I would add that they mourn that the child in the household with an income of less the loss of empire, are bitter at the loss of their undeserved than £15,000 has a chance of realising their genuine supremacy and are stuck in the last century but one. potential. They should be able to retain the IQ that they That would be an accurate description of those who are have at the age of five until they are 10, 15, 50, 65 or 75. obsessed with political correctness. That is one of the many problems that I have with the The Bill has one merit, in that it allows us to debate hon. Gentleman’s Bill. these issues. We should acknowledge that although merit is a fine thing, in practice there are many fields of Philip Davies: I am sure we can all identify with the life in which merit is not sufficient to ensure that people issue that the hon. Gentleman raises, and that we all feel make the progress that they should be allowed to make. equally exercised about it, but surely the way to tackle it I therefore hope that the Bill will make no further is through the education system. We must ensure that progress. it looks after people of all abilities. Surely the solution should not be to allow the education system to perpetuate the current situation, then rig the rules for selecting 11.6 am people for jobs at a later date. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a great joy to be here at such an exciting moment in the parliamentary Chris Bryant: Indeed, many of us who represent calendar. I sort of congratulate the hon. Member for valley seats in south Wales, such as my hon. Friend the Shipley (Philip Davies) on bringing forward the Bill, Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), who is in his place, although it is a bit of a fib of a Bill because it is entitled know the long history of people fighting for better the Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill, whereas it education precisely as a means of trying to rebalance should, of course, be called the Political Correctness and recalibrate that inequality in society. People do not Gone Mad (Abolition) Bill. need to have seen the play or film “The Corn Is Green” to know the educational ambition that often exists in Philip Davies: I tried to call it that, but I was not many valley constituencies or other areas in the country allowed. with very high levels of multiple deprivation. All too often, however, it does not seem that the same educational Chris Bryant: There is clearly significant prejudice opportunity is afforded to somebody in the Rhondda as against the hon. Gentleman in the Table Office. I should it is to somebody in Chelsea. say that that prejudice is entirely shared by those on the I see the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Opposition Benches, and I suspect that it is shared a Hands) in his place—as a Whip, he is now unable to little by those on the Liberal Democrat Bench, which is speak, so I can tease him remorselessly.Since he dispatched a rather singular Bench today. his close friend the former Defence Secretary from his I start from the fundamental principle that we were post specifically so that he could become a Whip, I shall all created equal. That comes from a religious position, now enjoy teasing his silence. My point is simply that although in my theology I am very heterodox—perhaps those in Chelsea, who have much greater financial resources, unusual for me. I believe that all human beings were can ensure that they live in a good catchment area so created equal and that we, as politicians, should be that their child can go to a better school, or can afford seeking to ensure that that equality is reflected in the to send their child to a private school. I was very way that people are able to live their lives. I know fortunate that members of my family paid for me to go humanists who come from a completely different to a private school, but that is not available to the vast perspective, but who end up at the same point of believing majority of my constituents or, I suspect, to any of that we are all equal and that that equality should be them. That is why ensuring that the educational system matched in the way that we structure society. genuinely provides equality of opportunity is vital. The truth of the matter is that the world is not equal. The most distressing thing that I have come across in There is inequality not only between rich people and my time as an MP was early on. I bumped into a girl of poor people in a country, but between rich parts and 17 in Tonypandy and asked her what she wanted to do poor parts of a country and between rich countries when she left school. She said she wanted to be a and poor countries. My fundamental assumption, therefore, barrister, and I said, “Brilliant, how’s all that going? is that it will always be a struggle to try to achieve What are you going to study at university?” She said, equality, and not an easy one. One has always to try to “Well, I want to be a barrister, but I’ve been told by the 1205 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1206

[Chris Bryant] Is it not a paradox that, even with equality legislation, every single person currently in the Chamber is white, careers service that girls from the Rhondda don’t get to middle-aged and male? That is not the case with those be barristers.” All too often such depression of ambition slightly outside the Chamber in the civil servants’ box can be self-perpetuating in communities, and that is or the Serjeant at Arms’ seat, but it is— why many of us believe in an aspirational form of socialism so that everybody has a chance to prosper. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. This is not relevant. We are dealing with the Bill, and Members Mr Nuttall: Does that not actually reinforce the point should be speaking to the Bill. I am sure the hon. made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) does not want to Davies) that the education system is at fault? The careers get led all over the place. We have already seen that adviser should not have said that to someone who had coming from the Government side, and I certainly do that ambition. He should have encouraged her and not want to see it coming from the Opposition side. provided her with the help and support she needed. Chris Bryant: Thank you for that advice, Mr Deputy Chris Bryant: Absolutely—I agree with the second Speaker, although I think the hon. Member for Shipley part of that intervention, although not with the bit will be absolutely scandalised to have been described as where the hon. Gentleman encouraged me to agree with coming from the Government side. the hon. Member for Shipley. Incidentally, I prefer the former Member for Shipley, my hon. Friend the Member Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I am not sure about being for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), and I very much middle-aged, either, but do carry on. hope that he will have an opportunity to present his rather ludicrous Bill later. Chris Bryant: I think you are middle-aged, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I am pretty much there as well. Philip Davies: I am sure the vast majority of my The problem that I have with the contention made by constituents also prefer the former Member for Shipley the hon. Member for Shipley is that I still think there is and regret the fact that they let him go when they had a great deal of prejudice in British society. It is complex the opportunity to keep him. and arises in all sorts of ways. I have seen in my I do not know whether the hon. Member for Rhondda constituency problems at school for young black kids in (Chris Bryant) was watching “Daybreak” this morning, a community that is almost entirely white, and sometimes but if he was he will have seen my hon. Friend the black teachers have had a really rough time because of Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) promoting the kind of language that people use. Language that her initiative called “If Chloe Can”, which is designed would no longer be heard in most other parts of the to raise the aspiration of young girls in particular who country, where there is a racial mix, is sometimes still have the poverty of aspiration that the hon. Gentleman used. talks about. Surely that type of initiative, which the I would also point out that the suicide statistics for Prime Minister supported yesterday with a reception at gay young men in particular are still quite phenomenal. No. 10 Downing street, is a more important way of A young gay lad is six times more likely to commit dealing with the problem than rigging the selection suicide than his heterosexual counterpart, and I would rules for jobs. love to see the end of homophobic bullying in schools. It will be very difficult to achieve, because people are Chris Bryant: There seem to be an awful lot of Ruperts not born with a pink triangle on their forehead or and Jessicas and Chloes in the hon. Gentleman’s life. I whatever—it is something complicated that they have to think that the only Rupert who has ever crossed the discover for themselves, and children can be very cruel. border into the Rhondda constituency was Rupert Bear. Tackling such prejudice will always be one of the important One of my experiences was as a curate in High things for Governments. Wycombe, a community that has a strong ethnic mix. A large community from St Vincent has been there since Philip Davies: I absolutely accept that there is still just after the second world war, and a large community discrimination in society, and I certainly did not say from Kashmir and a large Polish community arrived in that there was not. The point of my Bill is to try to the middle of the second world war. I found that, all too remove it. My question for the hon. Gentleman is this: often, in an unequal society the people who know how how do we tackle that discrimination? Surely the solution to shout the loudest get the best resources from national cannot be reverse discrimination in favour of people and local government. One of my problems with the who were discriminated against in the past. Surely it is educational system in this country, and for that matter to remove all forms of discrimination. with the national health service, is that all too often money has not followed need but has followed the Chris Bryant: Well, no, not quite. Let us say, for the loudest speeches. That is why I believe that we need sake of argument, that the ambulance service, which equality legislation, and why I supported the legislation the hon. Gentleman mentioned earlier, turned up at the that the deputy leader of the Labour party brought household of a young Muslim woman who was in forward in government. labour and having a difficult childbirth, and had absolutely no understanding of what was acceptable in a Muslim Mr MacShane: I am following my hon. Friend’s household. It would not be able to do its job properly. speech with great interest, and I hope that it is only in its That is precisely why all public services need to be initial stages, because the Bill that follows really is a culturally sensitive not just to how Britain has always ghastly assault on privilege and fair play. been but to how it is today. 1207 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1208

When homosexuality was illegal—this era is fortunately not sure that that is true. In fact, the evidence shows long gone—and when David Maxwell Fyfe, as Home that, all too often, the rules are effectively rigged so that Secretary, ran a particularly nasty campaign of entrapment women do not get jobs. of gay men, some friends of mine, a couple who had The hon. Gentleman asked whether Labour men who lived together for many years, were burgled, but because supported all-women shortlists were surrendering they had only a one-bedroom flat, they were terrified of themselves and falling on their swords. I merely point bringing the police round, because they knew that the out that we are all about to lay down on our swords, police would investigate them for buggery rather than because we voted through the Parliamentary Voting investigating the burglary. System and Constituencies Bill. I have no idea whether I am afraid that there is a lack of understanding in there will be a Rhondda seat or a Greater Rhondda far too many public services of how work could be seat, incorporating most of Caerphilly—that was my improved by sensitivity to the ways other people live suggestion. I made no objection to all-women shortlists their lives—I would not say that there is deliberate in the Labour party in 1997. I stood in High Wycombe, prejudice, out-and-out racism, homophobia or sexism. which was almost impossible for the party to win, and In addition, many minority communities are simply my election was not anticipated, although the Conservative forgotten by local authorities and the health service party so completely destroyed itself in the 1997 election when they make their spending plans. That is one issue that I very nearly was elected. that needs to be addressed and one reason why the Bill All-women shortlists were then rendered illegal by is wrong. court action. Interestingly, 10 Welsh Labour MPs stood Incidentally, there is significant cultural prejudice down or retired before the 2001 election, and every against the Catholic Church. I passionately disagree single one was replaced by a Welsh Labour male MP—not with the Pope on just about every issue, starting with a single woman was selected in any of those 10 historically transubstantiation. However, all too often prejudice safe Labour seats. I rejoiced that I was selected for the against Catholics in society is quite marked and that is Rhondda in 2001, to many people’s surprise, not least why it is not a good idea to ask people to give the name my own, but it is none the less important that political of their primary school when they are applying for parties have the power to retain all-women shortlists. public sector jobs. People will say, “Aha, this person went to the Cardinal Vaughan school! We’re not very Philip Davies: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could keen on Catholics, so we won’t shortlist them.” It is explain why no women were selected. Is it the case that illegal to do that, but it would be simpler and better if none of those women who applied for those seats was that element were taken out of the equation. good enough to be selected, or is the Labour party in Wales riddled with sexism and so overlooked better-qualified The hon. Member for Shipley said that he wanted a women to select men? Perhaps he should sort out the tolerant society. That phrase is very often used—I believe problems in his own party and not impose those ridiculous that an Archbishop of Canterbury started calls for a laws on the rest of us. tolerant society in the 1960s. However, I dislike the concept of a tolerant society, because I think that a Chris Bryant: We are not imposing any laws on the respectful society is far more important. “Tolerance” Conservative party. implies that although someone completely and utterly disapproves of someone who lives in a different style— Philip Davies: All-women shortlists?

Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose— Chris Bryant: No. Choosing all-women shortlists is entirely up to political parties. Labour chooses to use Chris Bryant: I will tolerate the hon. Gentleman in a them. moment. Unfortunately, “tolerance”smacks of reluctance. The hon. Gentleman asked why men so often get selected for safe seats, which is a problem for the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am surprised that the hon. Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats and Labour. There Gentleman starts tolerance in the 1960s, because surely are all sorts of complex reasons. Part of the problem is John Locke did that in his essay on tolerance. The how we do business in Parliament, and part of it is how theme has run through Whiggish behaviour, of which politics is presented in the wider public domain. There he is symbolic, ever since. could be other prejudices out there. However, the Welsh Labour party has been immeasurably improved by the fact that we have a large number of women representing Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I not only seats in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh cannot see anything about tolerance in the Bill. I think Assembly Government, but heartland seats in Parliament. we will stick with the Bill. The hon. Gentleman says that he does not care whether 10% or 90% of MPs are women, but I care. I Chris Bryant: There is nothing in the Bill about want to strive to make Parliament as representative of tolerance. Indeed, one of the main problems with it is the wider population as possible. That cannot be too that it does not even aspire to tolerance, which is one of narrowly arithmetical, but I want to see the full diversity the many reasons why I oppose it. of Britain in the Chamber. Otherwise, the work that we The hon. Member for Shipley said—I am not do is undermined. If people do not hear their voice paraphrasing, but accurately recording what he said—that expressed, there will be a problem. Incidentally, by way women and ethnic minorities do not need the rules to be of another criticism of myself, there are probably too rigged in order to get jobs. He feels that the current many MPs of a particular social background and too legislation is patronising, because women and members few of a manual working class background, unlike the of ethnic minorities are perfectly able to get jobs. I am position in the ’20s, ’30s and ’40s. 1209 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1210

Philip Davies rose— succession should be subject to male-preference primogeniture should be changed. I also hope that the Chris Bryant: I will move on a little if the hon. Government are moving— Gentleman does not mind. We in the Labour party need to address those issues. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We Many Government Members criticise Labour’s relationship are drifting well away from the Bill. We enjoy the with the trade unions, but I make absolutely no apology history lesson, and it is good that a lot of history is for it. Many of the working class people who have come coming out today. However, it is certainly not relevant to the House have done so through the trade union to the Bill; we are certainly drifting way off course. I am route. They learned in the trade union movement how sure that the hon. Gentleman will bring us back on to do their politics and put their arguments, and they course. were financially supported so that they could put themselves forward for parliamentary nominations. They were selected Chris Bryant: I do apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. It on that basis, which is why I wholeheartedly support the is just that clause 2 is entitled “Definition of ‘affirmative relationship between the trade unions and the Labour or positive action’”. The Prime Minister is seeking to party. change the legislation at the meeting of Commonwealth The hon. Member for Shipley seemed to suggest that Heads of Government next week and I worry that that there should be absolutely no limits to free speech. I could be seen by the hon. Member for Shipley as mostly agree with him, and I believe in a free press. I positive discrimination on the grounds of sex, listed in worry sometimes about the direction of the Leveson paragraph (b), and religion, in paragraph (g). I would inquiry. In my work in relation to the News of the hope that the hon. Gentleman was in favour of equality World, my intention has never been to dismantle in the succession. investigative journalism, which is an important part of how we do business and ensure our democratic rights. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the hon. Gentleman give However, the hatred and the bigotry that some express way? sometimes goes beyond the pale. I want less hatred to be poured into the pool of hatred that is already out there. Chris Bryant: How could I resist? Some of the hon. Gentleman’s arguments are similar to those that Ann Widdecombe used when she was in the House. I found that they simply added to the sum total Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether it might be right of bigotry rather than diminished it. We should all be to look at the matter the other way round. Is this striving to diminish it, and I am glad that we have laws actually a rather dangerous Bill that would impliedly that prevent the incitement of not only racial hatred but repeal positive discrimination in favour of Protestants religious and homophobic hatred. As we have seen over in the order of succession—and, of course, of men as recent years, that legislation has been all the more well? Has the hon. Gentleman considered that point? important in areas where there is a real social mix. I also believe that Parliament has been immeasurably Chris Bryant: I do worry about the prejudice in better for having had more women in it in recent years. I favour of Protestants, although the issue is even more honestly think that were it not for the arrival of so many complicated. It is not quite in preference of Protestants, women some issues would not have been explored and but in favour of somebody who is able to take communion addressed with anything like the seriousness with which in the Church of England and subscribe to its articles of they have been. One example is domestic violence. For religion, a difficult thing even for most Anglican clergy, centuries, a woman was regarded merely as a chattel or as well as be a member of the Church of Scotland. That another household good for a man to do with as he is quite a tall ask. pleased. Those laws were changed in the middle of the The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that 20th century, but only in recent years did the police and clause 2(1)(g) might be problematic for true equality. the law start to take domestic violence seriously. I am Incidentally, I would not often say this but I support the certain that in my constituency and many others a large striving for equality in the House of Lords advanced at proportion of violent crime relates to what happens in present by Baron Fellowes, who is worried that his wife people’s households or between domestic partners. I do will not be able to inherit her title, because women in not believe that the police would have the powers, will this country are not allowed to inherit titles. or resources to deal with that today had it not been for There is still a problem in this country. Only 22% of the arrival of significant numbers of women in Parliament. Members are women. In the Labour party, all-women I should note that today is the anniversary of the shortlists have played a significant role in trying to arrival of the first women peers in 1958. There were bring about a more equal and representative House of four of them, and they were a slightly strange lot. One Commons. When we move forward to an elected second was married to a viceroy, another was the daughter of a Chamber, I hope that we will be able to use the same viceroy and another was a countess, so it was not legislation. exactly equality as we like to see it today. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Philip Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman not believe Rees-Mogg), also known as the hon. Member for the that in a democracy, whoever is in this House should be 15th century and for “Question Time”, obviously likes determined by the electorate—not by him, imposing that, however. quotas on who should be here and who should not and I am glad that the Government are moving forward what the make-up of the House of Commons should with the issue of succession so that the prejudice—stemming be? Surely that should be decided by the electorate and originally from common law, not statute—that the the electorate alone. 1211 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1212

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is then arguing for up. This is the key point to the Bill: we want to have a system of primaries in every constituency at every equality of opportunity as an objective, but not equality election. I have not heard him call for that. I may have of outcome. I think that is what has always divided the missed one of his speeches; I have tried to listen to all of Conservative—the Tory—from the socialist: the socialist them, although sometimes I wander off. That is not the always wants equality of outcome. Socialists want to parliamentary system that we have grown up with. meddle and muddle; they want to socially engineer—or Under our system, local political parties tend to choose perhaps to engineer socially for the benefit of Hansard their candidates and the candidates are then presented who do not like their infinitives to be split—and they to the electorate. In the end, of course, it is up to the want to make sure that they direct and control so that electorate. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the situation everybody should be made into a neat little machine. in Blaenau Gwent. A rather more complex set of issues We have had this terrible socialist proposition recently arose there in relation to why we lost the seat. I merely that the elderly should sell their homes so that they can point out that we now have extremely fine new Members, be put into properties that have fewer rooms. That is both in the Welsh Assembly and here. what it is all about; it is about controlling people, I still think that we will need measures to ensure that guiding their lives and taking away their freedoms. the House is more representative than it has been thus When it comes to this Equality Act, to which my hon. far. The hon. Gentleman referred to what he called his Friend’s Bill would make splendid improvements, with “trump card”—Mrs Thatcher. I think that that was some caveats that I may come to, it is desperately deliberate incitement; he was trying to get the Opposition condescending to women. They do not want to be to rise to the bait, and I am happy to do so. Unfortunately, looked down upon as if they cannot cope. I am going to Mrs Thatcher did remarkably little for women. If anything, speak of the example of my younger sister Annunziata she is the rule that proves that the exception proves the Rees-Mogg, who was the candidate for Somerton and rule. Frome, where she fought a noble campaign. I discussed In Mrs Thatcher’s period of government, the effect this with her and I said, “Actually, for the political on women and household incomes, especially among advantage of the Conservative party,”—I am all in the poorest, was devastating. Many communities that favour of the political advantage of the Conservative might have hoped for an opportunity to rise on the party—“perhaps we should have all-women shortlists.” ladder of prosperity at the time were cast into the outer It might not have helped me but it would have helped darkness. What she brought about was not, as she her and it might have answered a political problem for proclaimed, in the words of Francis of Assisi, peace, the party. She could not have been more strongly against unity and concord, but division and discord. For many it because she viewed it as condescending. She wanted of us in the Opposition, she is not a trump card at all; if to get the nomination for a seat on her own great anything, she is a joker. merits—and very considerable her merits are, too. She We believe that the equality legislation that we put in did not want to be told she was a poor little thing: that place was important and has enabled Parliament to be is the sort of line an elder brother can use to a sister but more representative than it was and to address issues it is not the sort of line that should be used by political that it would not otherwise have done. In the end, parties or by the state. [Interruption.] The hon. Member however, hon. Members will have to make a decision. for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) points out, from a sedentary Do they believe that the equality of humanity should position, that she lost. Well, she did because the Labour simply be left to the market or do we need intervention vote went down to 4%. Labour lost its deposit and that before breakfast, before lunch and before dinner? I fall was to its horror when it discovered that the Lib Dems into the latter category. then supported us, so the aim to keep the beastly Tories out by voting Lib Dem failed miserably. Without that, 11.38 am she would have won by a landslide and I expect that next time around that will be the happy occurrence. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): We have heard that the great lady, the noble Lady, the Lady It is condescending to women to assume that they of the Garter, Baroness Thatcher, is not to be called cannot cope without special measures and to people upon in this debate, so let us call upon Queen Elizabeth from what are genuinely minorities, because of course I instead. As she so memorably said, though her body women are not a minority. Some of the time they are in might be weak, she had the heart of a king—and a King the majority, although not at birth. There are more of England at that. She did not need special measures, live births of boys than of girls, but women tend to live advancement and protection to get her going; she did it longer and therefore can easily be a majority of the through her own vim and vigour, her force of character population. and her great and noble ability that set the path for this We have discussed Catholicism. The hon. Member great country for centuries to come. for Rhondda said that he disagreed with the Holy Father on transubstantiation, but I cannot think why. It Damian Green: I merely make the point that had the is clearly a very sensible and right doctrine. However, I genetics fallen in a different way, she would never have do not think, as a Catholic, that I have any fear of become Queen, because of discrimination within the discrimination, nor ever have had, although it did happen system of primogeniture. once to my father—my noble kinsman, as I ought to call him. He was going for a Conservative selection Jacob Rees-Mogg: But she did become Queen. That many years ago and was asked by one of the members is the point—that she was able to become queen because of the committee if he would be able to go to the lord our constitution has always evolved gently and happily lieutenant’s funeral as he was a Catholic, at which point so that more and more people become included in it another member of the committee pointed out that without necessarily being given a helping hand or a lift actually the lord lieutenant was the Duke of Norfolk, 1213 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1214

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] the female line, particularly if they are in danger of becoming extinct, because it would be a great sadness so there would be absolutely no difficulty in my father’s for titles to die out over succeeding generations with no attending his funeral. But he did not need special measures new hereditary peerages being awarded. I must briefly to help him. He had to get on and, if there was declare an interest, because my mother-in-law would be discrimination in those days, to overcome it, to strive able to resurrect a title if this law were to be changed. and move forward—as, of course, Margaret Thatcher did and Nancy Astor too. Chris Bryant: Could she not just petition the Queen We have seen in the development and evolution of to allow her to hold it sui juris? this House that it has become broader based. One might think that the days when it was simply knights of the shires, when the borough Members had not been let Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am not sure that that is— in, were glorious days when the knights of the shires could come in wearing spurs, as I believe we still can, to indicate that they represented a county. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I think we are getting into too much detail about one’s Chris Bryant: Wrong! relatives and we are also drifting, once again, away from the Bill. As much we are all enjoying it I think we had Jacob Rees-Mogg: I believe it is true, actually. better come back to the Bill. Chris Bryant: It is not. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I believe it is true. for bringing me back on track. I remember that there was a wonderful slogan of the Conservatives at one Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I do point, “Britain’s on the right track. Don’t turn back.” not think we are going to have an argument and a That is really what we want in speeches from this history lesson across the Chamber. I am sure the hon. side—we want to stay on this right, Conservative track. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) will either intervene My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley is very much or be slightly more quiet. on the right Conservative track with his Bill about looking at opportunity, not outcome, and to place on Jacob Rees-Mogg: Mr Deputy Speaker, I was shocked public authorities a duty of fairness to behave properly at such a sedentary intervention. I have never known and not to pick winners. We know that the state has such things in this House before. tried picking winners in the past and it is not a good But things evolved and we let the borough Members policy, because the state is not going to do that well. It in, and we now look upon them as equals. wants to do things on merit. Chris Bryant: That probably takes the biscuit for lèse I agree very much with my hon. Friend the Member majesté—“We let the borough Members in”! I know for Shipley on political candidates as well. They ought that the hon. Gentleman has been here for a very long to be the ones the local parties want and not people sent time in some shape or form, but to suggest that we have down from on high. If the local parties want a man, now become representative when he himself is the son that is up to them, and if they want a woman, that of a peer seems a little odd. should equally be up to them. Of course we want to ensure that there is a very fine list of the best possible Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman candidates that they can choose from, but they should for his typically helpful intervention. Of course sons of have the ultimate choice and the ultimate authority. peers should be represented, and they are a minority Those of us who believe in localism would like the law too. Perhaps as a son of a peer I should be given special repealed so that it is unlawful to discriminate in that help and intervention to help me to get through all the way. In safe seats, such as Rhondda, discrimination prejudice there is against sons of peers—not that I could give somebody a seat for life, with a significant would ask for it or that I have ever noticed a particular income, which would be unfair to people who might prejudice against sons of peers. Mr Deputy Speaker, I have done the job equally well and may have been more hope that such prejudices never fall upon so distinguished wanted by the electorate to whom they were accountable. a figure as yourself either. Parties need to be conscious of their power in safe seats. Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend may have seen the press There is, as always, a but. I was concerned about the reports today regarding possible new legislation to allow point made by the right hon. Member for Rotherham females to take hereditary titles in the House of Lords. (Mr MacShane) who said that the Bill would outlaw Does he agree that this is the way forward? nunneries because they could represent discrimination by a public authority in favour of women. I am not sure Jacob Rees-Mogg: Well, I do not really like change as that point is right, because if Her Majesty’s Government a general rule, and I would be very nervous about or any other public authority—the Charity Commission, intervening in the line of succession to the throne. I for example—were to support nunneries and monasteries think that the line of succession to the throne works equally, there would be a balance, and as there may very well and changing the Canadian constitution is a be more monks than nuns in this country it might be particularly difficult thing to do. With Her Majesty’s positive discrimination in favour of men, if it were any fantastically successful visit to Australia, we want everything discrimination at all. I do not think that criticism of the to have a settled continuity of that succession. However, Bill actually holds. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member I think that the world has changed and that it may not for Rhondda want to speak? It is very difficult to pick be unreasonable to allow hereditary titles to pass through up all these sedentary interruptions, Mr Deputy Speaker. 1215 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1216

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman took offence. It was part and parcel of their way of does not have to pick them up; he can choose to ignore life—their culture—just as we have Irish jokes. It is not them. demeaning in any way. Like the Bill’s promoter, I am a Yorkshireman and we Jacob Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. also have jokes about Yorkshiremen. Jokes about sections Your guidance is helpful to the nth degree. I am greatly of the community are common. I have often heard my appreciative of it and I shall now make sure that I right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign imitate the deaf adder: charm the hon. Member for Affairs tell jokes about Lancashire, and, indeed, I have Rhondda ever so nicely, I shall not be able to hear. We heard him telling jokes about people from Sheffield and remember the deaf adder from our scripture lessons; as Rotherham. Nobody took offence at that. the hon. Gentleman is a former vicar, he will no doubt be able to call it to mind. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): They may I am slightly concerned that the succession to the not have taken offence, but as we both know, there is Crown could be affected, but I think the Bill could be nothing about jokes on the face of the Bill. I know that amended to make it absolutely clear that there will be an argument is being built, but I think we can move on no effect on the succession and that the discrimination from the jokes now—much as I am tempted by the that remains is germane until such time as it is settled mention of Yorkshire. on its own in a different way—if ever it is to be changed. As a Catholic, I do not think it is a good idea to open Mr Nuttall: Earlier in the debate the question was the succession to Catholics; it would make no sense to asked: can we take equality too far? Does it mean have a Catholic as the head of the Church of England changing the nature of our society? Can we take free and it would be a pity to disestablish the Church of speech too far? In the same way, when I was young— England by accident. I am broadly in support of the Bill. The real principle Philip Davies: You still are. is that we must not be condescending to people who can do it for themselves. We must embrace freedom and liberty. We must let people have every conceivable Mr Nuttall: Thank you. We always used to talk of opportunity and then let them strive, go forward and lollipop ladies. Nobody ever suggested that there ought work to achieve what they can and what they will. We to be a recruitment drive for lollipop men and nobody must not say that we have to make sure that the number thought it was demeaning in any way that there were fits the box. We must not take the broad principle, to lollipop ladies and not—as far as I was aware at that quote a former Labour Cabinet Minister, that the man time—any lollipop men. in Whitehall really does know best, because the man in The Bill has only two main parts. The first two Whitehall does not know best, and even if he becomes a clauses relate to the prohibition of positive action by woman she still does not know best. It should be left to public authorities and the third clause repeals the legislation individuals, and we should avoid this socialistic tendency allowing for all-women shortlists, which I shall come to to try to get equality of outcome, which we will in fact later. Clause 1 sets out the details of the prohibition of never achieve. positive action and clause 2 contains the definition of the action that would be outlawed. Positive action, as it is often called, differs from positive discrimination in 11.51 am that it is actively intended to increase the representation in a work force where monitoring has shown a particular Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is always a group to be under-represented in proportion to the great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for profile of either the total work force or the local or North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who spoke national population. with such authority on the matter. I am a sponsor of the Bill and am obviously rising to support it. Positive action permitted by the present anti- discrimination legislation allows a person to provide I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for facilities to meet the special needs of people from Shipley (Philip Davies) for bringing us the Bill. Millions particular groups in society in relation to their training, of people across the country will be saying, “Hooray” education or welfare and to target job training at people this morning because at last somebody has started to from certain groups that are under-represented in a roll back the tide of political correctness. I am pleased particular area of work or to encourage such groups to to be joined in support for the Bill by my right hon. apply for such work. That raises some interesting and Friends the Members for Haltemprice and Howden difficult questions. What is the area in question that (Mr Davis), for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) should be considered? If a business or a public authority and for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), and my hon. is situated in the south of England in a predominantly Friends the Members for Altrincham and Sale West ethnically white area, should they be exempt from the (Mr Brady), for Christchurch (Mr Chope) and for legislation? Well, of course they are not exempt, and it Kettering (Mr Hollobone). must be difficult for some public authorities in certain I want to follow up one or two of the points made by areas to meet the quota because it is impossible for earlier speakers. The first is about racist jokes. Over the them to decide what area they cover. Does one look at years, the nature of comedy in this country has changed, the town in question, or the county, or the country, and but we must not think that because we have changed it if so, which country? Does one look at the United means that racist jokes were restricted only to this Kingdom as a whole or just the make-up of England? country. I understand that in Canada jokes were often Of course, many areas covered by the present legislation told about the Newfoundlanders—the Newfies. No one are not easy to determine. 1217 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1218

[Mr Nuttall] of their gender or racial group, or for any other factor, and not for their ability. We are now at the crux of the An example is sex or gender, to which the hon. matter. I believe that, by definition, as soon as one Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) referred. Very positively discriminates in respect of any given group in often, it might not be possible to know whether one has society, one is automatically discriminating against another a certain number of gay or heterosexual people in one’s group. That cannot be right. The Bill makes a good work force. Indeed, I would submit that the information start in tackling the problem, but it is just the first step is of absolutely no consequence or relevance whatever. on the long road to ridding this country of the culture I should perhaps declare that before I entered this of political correctness and dismantling the whole industry House, I was for many years an employer, so I know all of diversity and equality. about the rules and regulations that were imposed on There could be no better time, given the economic my practice as a result of equality legislation. Before situation, for that to gather pace. I know from my any of the legislation was in place, just off our own bat, experience as a practising solicitor that many small and I had a work force who were 95% female, so in fact, in medium-sized enterprises struggle under the burden of my work force, men were not equally represented. No the legislation. We are not there yet—there is a long way one suggested to me that when I came to employ to go—but if we could begin to remove the legislation another secretary, legal assistant or solicitor, I should that applies to public authorities, that would be a step in start to select men; I always selected the best person for the right direction. All our public services are looking the job. for savings but, because of the way in which the law is framed, the one area in which they are not allowed to Chris Bryant: Whether a large proportion of the look for them is diversity and equality legislation. They people the hon. Gentleman employed were men or have to keep their army of officers to comply with the women is neither here nor there. If, in putting together law and the tick-box legislation. his pension package, he made provision for people to Under the Disability Discrimination Acts, positive inherit only the pension of a spouse, rather than the discrimination in favour of disabled people is not unlawful, pension of a civil partner or a person of the same and if disabled people meet the minimum criteria for a gender, he would have been advancing a prejudice. job, they are guaranteed an interview. The only other exemption relates to the Sex Discrimination (Election Mr Nuttall: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting Candidates) Act 2002, which the Bill seeks to abolish. point. I believe that it should be up to the pension-holder The Equality Act 2010 includes a provision giving employers to determine to whom their pension should go; it should the option, when faced with two or more candidates of not be anyone else’s decision. No question of prejudice equal merit, of choosing one from a group that is should arise, as it should be up to the individual to under-represented in the work force. There is a whole determine. I do not see that there is anything wrong Government Department—the Government Equalities with that. It is perfectly all right, and it does not need Office—that exists solely for the purpose of issuing and any legislation to allow that to happen. enforcing guidance, red tape and regulations on that legislation. It has published guidance for employers on Chris Bryant: But it has needed legislation to make how to make those changes and use them in everyday sure that the vast majority of company pensions operate life. The provisions on positive action in recruitment in that way. Of course the hon. Gentleman is right are, I am pleased to say, entirely voluntary but, as we all to say that it should be for the individual to decide to know, the public sector has seized on them with great whom their pension goes, but in the vast majority of glee. There is no requirement for an employer to use cases, the old assumption was that it went only to a either the general provisions or those relating to recruitment spouse, and not to anyone else. It required legislation to and promotion. change that. Positive action in that regard will be used in cases in which an employer reasonably thinks that people with a Mr Nuttall: That is a slightly different point. The protected characteristic are under-represented in the hon. Gentleman’s point about pensions could easily work force or suffer a disadvantage connected to that have been dealt with by the individuals concerned dealing protected characteristic. As my hon. Friend the Member with the trustees of the pension scheme, and explaining for Shipley made clear, the problem is where we draw to them that they wanted to change the rules of the the line. Why not, for example, protect and give help to scheme to allow their pension to go to a certain other those who are particularly tall? individual. Of course, very often, there was no one forcing people to join the pension scheme; if they chose Jacob Rees-Mogg: What an excellent idea—there should to join it, so be it. We now have a free market in pension be special benefits for everyone over 6 feet. schemes, so in the situation that the hon. Gentleman describes, there would have been a gap in the market and, in a free market, someone would have sprung up to Mr Nuttall: I am pleased that my hon. Friend is provide pensions for people in exactly that position. interested in this matter. If someone, for the sake of argument, is 7 feet tall—there are people of that stature in society—an employer might secretly think that they Chris Bryant: They did not. had better not take on such an employee, because they might complain about the size of the company’s doorways Mr Nuttall: It could have happened. and it would have to spend a fortune going round the My previous comments related to positive action. building and enlarging all the doors. One can easily see Positive discrimination, affirmative action or discrimination how an argument could be made for heightist, stoutist generally means choosing someone solely on the grounds or shortist legislation to be introduced— 1219 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1220

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): I am listening sure doors matter to people who are over 2 meters—usually carefully to the hon. Gentleman. Given the changes it is 6 feet 6 inches—but I cannot see the connection that his leader has instituted in his party, is he saying between the Bill and where we are being led, so I am that there are Members on the Conservative Benches— sure the hon. Gentleman would like to bring us back women or members of ethnic minorities—who have not now to the Bill. got here purely on merit?

Mr Nuttall: I will indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Mr Nuttall: I am not saying that at all. There is a risk point I make is where do we draw the line? I will leave— that others might regard the winner from an all-women shortlist as not having succeeded against the whole field of candidates, which is self-evidently true. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. To help the hon. Gentleman, I have drawn the line at doors. Mr Campbell: Is that the hon. Gentleman’s view? If so, would he care to name any of them? Mr Nuttall: I entirely accept that, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will leave that point there. Mr Nuttall: As far as I am concerned, all Members The new positive action provisions make it clear that on the Government side of the House have got here on employers must not adopt policies or practices designed merit, but there are plenty of Members who succeeded routinely to favour candidates with a certain protected in their applications as a direct result of the all-women characteristic of whatever nature, even where there is shortlists that the Labour party introduced. evidence of under-representation or disadvantage. All suitably qualified candidates must be considered on Mr Campbell: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the their individual merits for the post in question. Current changes instituted by his leader to try to make his party positive action provisions in employment relate only to more representative have been a waste of time? training or encouragement—for example, mentoring schemes for ethnic minority staff where they are under- Mr Nuttall: I believe that all selections should be represented in senior roles, or open days to encourage open to all candidates, regardless of their race, sexual women applicants in male-dominated sectors. This merely gender or any other merits, that political parties, wherever serves to upset and discriminate against all those who they are in the country, should be free to choose who are not allowed to take part in such training. Why they want on merit and that the 2002 Act should be should they not receive the same training just because repealed, which the Bill seeks to do. The key objective of their racial background, sex or particular individual of that Act was to enable a political party, if it so characteristics? wished, to adopt measures to regulate the selection of The Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002 candidates, but I do not believe that that is the right way was originally presented on 17 October 2001. The key forward. According to the explanatory notes that objective of the Act was to enable a political party, accompanied the Act, in the 1996 case of Jepson v. the should it wish to do so, to adopt measures that regulate Labour party an employment tribunal held that section 13 the selection of candidates for certain elections in order of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 covered the selection to reduce inequality in the numbers of men and women of candidates by political parties, which therefore as candidates in that party. In south Yorkshire in the constrained their ability to take positive action to increase 1980s I was regularly involved in the selection of the number of women elected to this House. parliamentary candidates. Of, say, 50 applications that we would typically receive for a seat, there would be on Damian Green: For the avoidance of doubt, given the average 45 from men, three from women and two from interventions from the Opposition, I am happy to confirm ethnic minority candidates. It follows, therefore, that that the Conservative party has never used all-women with 90% of the applications being from white males, shortlists and that they fell into disrepair in the Labour very often a male was selected, but we were selecting party after an all-women shortlist produced a male purely on merit. candidate who happened to be the leader of a trade union. There were many examples, and there continue to be many examples in the Conservative party, of women who have succeeded on their merits. I know from Mr Nuttall: I am most grateful to the Minister for Mrs Nuttall that she feels extremely patronised whenever that intervention. The Opposition say that they support there is any talk of special treatment being given to all-women shortlists, but as Members on both sides of women. the House will be aware, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) was selected as a candidate despite his gender. It is perhaps one of the biggest Chris Bryant: By you? ironies that he was selected even though his wife, the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Mr Nuttall: Mrs Nuttall does not mind special treatment Peckham (Ms Harman), seems so keen to have all-women of her from me—I think she expects it—but as a general shortlists in all constituencies. rule that reflects the view of many women. If they are given special treatment, they feel that they are being Philip Davies: Is it not also ironic that the Labour patronised and that they can make it on their own merit party has brought in all these massively talented women, without it. That applies equally to those from ethnic apparently, through the use of all-women shortlists, but minority backgrounds. Many Members of this House when it wanted to select a new leader it seemed to have made it on their own strength without special bypass all that talent that had been brought into the treatment. House and plumped for a man? 1221 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1222

Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and If that is not a statement of the blindingly obvious, I do perhaps the Labour party will consider selecting its not know what is. If all-women shortlists are employed, leader on a rotational basis, with a male leader being by definition that can have no other effect than to followed by a female. As far as I am aware, the Labour produce more women candidates and, if applied across party, unlike our party, has never had a female leader; the board, that would inevitably lead to an increase in perhaps it is time for half a dozen consecutive female the number of women MPs. That is hardly a great leaders. achievement to cite. Chris Bryant: We have actually had two women leaders: It has also been suggested that we need to take action my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South to increase female representation on boards of companies, (Margaret Beckett) was briefly leader after John Smith but it should be up to companies themselves to determine died; and we had an interim leader in the form of my whom they have on their boards. I have no reason to right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell believe that they do not choose the best person for the and Peckham (Ms Harman), the current deputy leader. job. I read the other day that there has been an enormous More to the point, however, considering the trump card increase in the number of women directors in the City to which the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) of London. However, the percentage of the total has referred—Baroness Thatcher—is it not surprising that hardly increased at all, because what tends to happen is not a single other woman has chosen to stand for the that companies appoint female directors to tick a box. leadership of the Conservative party since? We have almost reached “token woman syndrome” again. Mr Nuttall: That is not surprising; it is just a matter of fact. The two examples to which the hon. Gentleman The positive action in recruitment provisions in the refers from the Labour party were of course simply Equality Act 2010 are entirely voluntary. There is no temporary leaders, who held the post until they could requirement for an employer to use either the general be replaced by a man. We should read nothing into the provisions or those relating to recruitment and fact that, since the great lady ceased to be leader of our promotion. I may not want to see any legislation to ban party, we have not produced a further female applicant discrimination, but equally I would not wish to for the leadership. I am sure that in years to come legislate to encourage discrimination. The Bill would females will apply and be candidates in such elections. even things up. It is not clear that we have seen any improvement in how companies operate, but at a time Chris Bryant: I do apologise; I misled the House. Ann of increased difficulty for public spending we have to Widdecombe stood, but she was voted off quite fast—as look at ways of cutting back, and pruning the whole she was off “Strictly”. area of equality and diversity legislation would be a Mr Nuttall: I will leave that there. We do not want to good starting point. go into “Strictly Come Dancing”. I will not be tempted Mention was made earlier of the “Not In My Name” down that road. section of the Campaign Against Political Correctness It has been suggested that the most effective way to website, and I have one or two other quotes from people attract female parliamentary candidates is to introduce who do not feel that the whole equality industry has a new system of flexible parental leave, so that aspiring helped them. Mark Grohen said: female politicians do not have to choose between a “As a gay man I’ve always thought myself rather lucky...I do career and family life. But, as we know from experience, not need to be told by politicians and do-gooders that I’m either Margaret Thatcher entered Parliament when her two vulnerable or incapable of looking after myself. I really dislike children, Carol and Mark, were just six years old. That people’s obsession with what I do in the bedroom: I prefer it not did not put off Margaret Thatcher, and there is no to be the reason why I’m hired for a job.” reason why it should put off anyone else some 50 years later. Chris Bryant: But unfortunately people are still murdered Those who consider putting themselves forward to for their sexuality, as happened in public only a couple become a Member of Parliament have to make a choice, of years ago in Trafalgar square. That is why we need to as we all do, men or women, and it would be sexist if ensure that the police services ensure that everyone is that choice did not apply to men, too. Hon. Members, protected, not just the mainstream and the majority. surely on both sides of the House, recognise that participating in running our country is no ordinary job. What started in the 2002 Act as a temporary measure Mr Nuttall: The shadow Minister makes a perfectly that would last only until 2015 has been extended by an valid point. I entirely agree that the police have to enormous 15 years, so the use of all-women shortlists protect everyone equally, regardless of the colour of will be permitted right up to 2030. It has been suggested their skin, whether they are gay or straight, wherever that this debate provides a suitable opportunity for the they come from in the world, male or female. However, House to consider whether all-women shortlists have the existence of all the equality and diversity legislation been effective, and perhaps it is time for us to do so. runs the risk of upsetting those sections of society who They have produced women MPs, but that is quite feel alienated and discriminated against by that legislation. obvious. What we do not know is how many good male It does not help—in fact, it is counter-productive—for candidates have been prevented from getting to this the Act to remain in place. House as a result of the application of the Act. A lady—a female—who is half Chinese, said: The Leader of the Opposition, on the subject of “For those of us who have pursued equality for so many years, all-women shortlists, recently said: it is disheartening to see how little has been achieved. Equality is “People were sceptical about all-women shortlists but I think not political correctness. In a truly equal country, the best candidate they have actually made an enormous difference to the numbers gets the job even if it is the Anglo-Saxon chap. There is a still long of women in Parliament.” waytogo.” 1223 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1224

Paolo Fragale, who is a gay man of mixed race, said: support on Second Reading, have a smooth passage “As a gay man of mixed race I vehemently oppose positive through this House and the other place, and reach the discrimination and quotas. Apart from the fact that I find them statute book, much to the delight of my constituents. patronising, I feel they are counter productive and only serve to further segregate people.” 12.35 pm Rachel Watts summed up the feeling of many women when she said: The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): This debate has been even more educational, informative “The majority of women in favour of ‘helping hands’ and special treatment are the ones who will gain the most from them.” and entertaining than I had hoped and expected when I learned that I would be responding to it. I apologise to Perhaps the most difficult and sensitive area is those my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) who are disabled. Frederick Bird said: for the absence of my hon. Friend the Minister for “As someone registered disabled, I would not object to not Equalities, who is a greater expert on these matters than being given a job that I was not able to do due to my disability. I am. Being realistic there are things that I cannot do and no p.c. rubbish can alter the fact.” This debate has stimulated a discussion on the use of positive action in our society, particularly by public Mention was made earlier of the help that disabled authorities and political parties. It provides me with an people need. I am pleased to say that the Government, opportunity to explain the principles and the practice of under the Work programme, are dealing with this as it positive action as it is used by the Government, and to should be dealt with—on an individual basis. It is clarify how it can be lawfully and helpfully used in simply not right to write off great sections of the different situations by public and private organisations, community, whether they are blind or disabled in any service providers, and political parties, which are specifically other way, and say, “I’m sorry—you’re not able to work raised in the Bill. because of your disability.” We should do all we can for those who have a disability to give them tailored, specialised, I will start by correcting two small errors that have individual help to get them back into the workplace, but crept into the debate. First, my hon. Friend said that no that cause will not be helped by some artificial means of one cares about any form of apparent discrimination employing quotas. against men. He raised the interesting and relevant subject of midwives. However, there is currently a debate My final quote comes from Denise O’Brien, a disabled about the paucity of male teachers in primary schools female person who is also a lesbian. She said: and that is a serious issue. I am sure that many hon. “Political correctness is making artificial differences between Members from all parts of the House have had the people unnecessarily. Special treatment for minority groups in a experience that I have had of going into a small primary lot of cases breeds resentment from those not included who have school in their constituency and finding themselves the genuine need of help.” only adult male on the premises apart, usually, from the The Bill is a good start on a very long road that we caretaker. We all recognise that that does not necessarily have to go down. It perhaps says something about contribute to the quality of education. My colleagues in where we are with the equality and diversity agenda that the Department for Education are concerned about this in the recently published new edition of “The Solicitor’s issue. It gets to the nub of the debate, because if a head Handbook”, chapter 2 is on equality and diversity, and teacher in such a primary school were faced with two it comes before the chapters on client confidentiality candidates of equal merit, one of whom was male and and conflicts of interest. I am sure that when someone one female, a lot of us would think it sensible for them goes to consult their solicitor they are more interested to pick the male candidate. No doubt, the female candidate to know that their business is being dealt with confidentially would feel that that was unfair and unnecessary and that there is no conflict of interest than whether the discrimination, but in many ways it would be common company in question has the right sort of tick-box sense. approach to equality and diversity. This is a burden on The second correction is, again, purely factual. small and medium-sized enterprises. It is no business of the Government to interfere in this way in how businesses Chris Bryant rose— are run. It provides an unnecessary burden in terms of the training that they have to do on a yearly basis in Damian Green: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman order to be able to demonstrate that they are complying before correcting one of the mistakes that he made. with the diversity agenda. In conclusion, this matter is perhaps best summed up Chris Bryant: I thought that the Minister might be by the quotation from George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”: about to do that. “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than I remember on one occasion a bishop saying to me others.” that he was very worried because he had to appoint a It cannot be right that we need this legislation in the clergyman in a deanery where all the clergy were gay, 21st century. Everybody should be treated with respect and he thought that it might be discriminatory if he did and tolerance. I have no objection to using the word not appoint a gay vicar to the parish just because all the tolerance. If it is used in its normal, everyday meaning, other vicars were gay. everybody knows that it means tolerating people and treating people from different backgrounds with respect. Damian Green: I think that it would be foolish to By starting along the road of removing some of the enter into Church politics in that way from this Dispatch politically correct nonsense legislation, we would be Box, so I will merely note what the hon. Gentleman has doing our constituents a great service. I warmly commend said. I wanted to correct him on a point that was the Bill to the House. I trust that it will receive resounding perhaps not central to his argument. In referring to my 1225 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1226

[Damian Green] Over the decades since those provisions were first introduced, they have become both well understood former neighbouring MP for Maidstone and the Weald, and well used. The Equality Act 2010 simplifies and Ann Widdecombe, he said that she had been voted off harmonises them, so that unlike previous legislation, “Strictly” very early. That is not true. She went a very under which positive action applied in slightly different long way in “Strictly”, and indeed the BBC was panicking ways to different protected characteristics, it now applies that she was going to win. in the same way to all of them as long as the relevant criteria for their use are adequately met. For those who Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Not are confused by the jargon, a reference to “protected being an entrant of “Strictly”, I can be strictly authoritarian characteristics” means a reference to someone’s age, on this—we are going to stick to the Bill. disability, marital or civil partnership status, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation or gender reassignment if applicable. What is new under the 2010 Act is that it Chris Bryant: And I didn’t say that. extends positive action provisions to the limits permissible under EU directives, which allow member states to Damian Green: You did. I will very happily return to adopt specific measures to prevent or compensate for the Bill, Mr Deputy Speaker. disadvantages linked to any of those protected The aim of the Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the characteristics. It introduces new provisions specifically Member for Shipley is to prohibit the use of positive related to recruitment and promotion, not recruitment action by public authorities in recruitment and appointment and appointment as suggested in my hon. Friend’s Bill. processes, and to repeal the Sex Discrimination (Election He is slightly off the mark with that. Candidates) Act 2002. I shall start with the principles There is a real need to tackle under-representation behind what the Government do. and ensure that everyone takes part in key areas of our Our approach to equality is built on two principles— society, in civil, economic and political life. One could equal treatment and equality of opportunity. I entirely cite a range of statistics to show why positive action can share my hon. Friend’s dislike of equality of outcome be helpful in tackling the under-representation and as a political project. He said that it was misguided, and disadvantage that are suffered across the board in some I certainly agree. However, the Government’s approach of the more desirable strata in our society. For example, is built on the principles of equality of opportunity and there are only three ethnic minority High Court judges. equal treatment. That means building a society in which There was much discussion this morning about the no one is held back because of who they are or where composition of Parliament and how the political parties they come from. It means not uniformity but, rather, approach it. Only 22% of MPs are women, but more giving everyone an equal right to be treated fairly as an than half the population are women, so that is a huge individual. disparity. More widely, only one third of public appointments are held by women, and only 0.8% of In our society, people can face discrimination and local councillors in England are black and minority disadvantage because of who they are and where they ethnic women, which is an extraordinarily low figure. In come from. The Government need specific action to terms of active discrimination, one in five lesbian, gay deal with such problems. However, the key to taking and bisexual people say that they have been harassed at forward our equality strategy is to demonstrate that work because of their sexual orientation. Although equality is for everyone by making it a part of everyday progress has been made—[Interruption.] I will not respond life. It is about changing culture and attitudes and to that sedentary intervention from the hon. Member tackling the causes of inequality rather than introducing for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the shadow Minister, for more legislation. That is why we are working with his sake. Although progress has been made, clearly business, local communities and citizens to promote more needs to be made in future. good practice, transparency and accountability. Positive action can also be used to support the delivery We can look at the history and concept of positive of the equality duty, which requires public authorities action. It is, of course, not new in UK legislation. The to consider the needs of people with various protected general positive action provisions have been in use for characteristics, some of whom may be at a considerable more than 30 years, having first been introduced in the disadvantage. In a bid to address such needs, public Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Race Relations bodies could choose—I emphasise choose—to use the Act 1976. Those provisions, which are sometimes called positive action measures to target those disadvantaged the training and encouragement provisions, have ever groups. since allowed employers, both public and private sector, Before I respond further to my hon. Friend’s Bill, it to take a range of voluntary—I cannot emphasise that might be useful to set out what positive action is, what it word strongly enough—positive action measures to address can be used for, how it can be legally used in different disadvantage and under-representation in the work force. scenarios, and most importantly, what it is not. In this There are many examples of such training and morning’s interesting debate, many hon. Members were encouragement measures by employers, including the sliding between attacks on specific legislation and examples provision of mentoring and shadowing opportunities, of positive action, and a general dislike of political the targeting of advertisements at particular groups by correctness. There is an interesting and genuine debate encouraging them to apply for advertised jobs, and the to be had both on the meaning of political correctness holding of open days solely for people with a particular and on what it has meant in practice, and we could ask protected characteristic that is under-represented in whether it has gone too far in some ways and not far the workplace, in order to offer them an insight into the enough in others, but that does not have much to do selection process that they would have to go through with my hon. Friend’s Bill—I will therefore stick to the when applying for employment with that employer. terms of the Bill. 1227 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1228

Positive action is a term used to describe a range of Positive discrimination is generally unlawful in this measures that organisations can use when people who country and will remain unlawful in most cases, although share a protected characteristic—I have listed them— we should note that it is not unlawful to give more experience some form of disadvantage because of favourable treatment to a disabled person than to a that characteristic; have particular needs linked to that non-disabled person. The intention behind that is to characteristic; or are disproportionately under-represented provide a level playing field for disabled people, who in a particular activity. In the second scenario, the Bill have been widely recognised to be disadvantaged in the would make it illegal for people to install a wheelchair field of employment, in society and in accessing services, ramp, because that would be positive action to help a without being open to legal challenge by non-disabled particular group. I do not believe that my hon. Friend people. intends that, but as I understand it, that would be the Positive action, as I outlined, is about ensuring that effect of one of the clauses. It is important to look at the any action taken has to be a proportionate means of detail of what positive action can involve when we achieving the aim of tackling or addressing disadvantage, assess whether the Bill should make further progress. encouraging participation in activities and meeting the When any of the three conditions apply, proportionate specific needs of people with protected characteristics. action can be taken to overcome that disadvantage—I It is essential for any organisation using positive action again emphasise that the action must be proportionate, to ensure that the measures being taken do not unlawfully and that action “can” rather than “must” be taken. discriminate against people outside the group that they Action can be taken to overcome a disadvantage, to are seeking to help. The provisions in the Equality meet particular needs, or to encourage and increase Act 2010 that relate to positive action make that very clear. participation in the related activity. I am sure that my hon. Friends who have spoken in Positive action can be taken in relation to a wide favour of the Bill would agree that many in our society range of activities covered by the Act as well as employment, have experienced historical disadvantage and under- such as education, training, service delivery and activities representation in numerous sectors and professions, undertaken by associations and other organisations. including in economic and political life, and many still Positive action is not about woolly-minded thinking, do. Of course, significant progress has been made in political correctness, reverse discrimination or sidelining recent decades to improve things. men. My hon. Friend was both entertaining and in Philip Davies: No doubt what my hon. Friend said large part correct in attacking what he described as about historical disadvantage is true, but does he think lentil eating, woolly minded, Guardian reading that just because black people, for example, have been characteristics. discriminated against in the past, white people should Chris Bryant: That’s you in the Tory party. be discriminated against now as some kind of reparation? Channel 4 has training courses that are open only for Damian Green: I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that people from ethnic minorities. Why should somebody I really do not eat lentils—nor do I own a pair of who happens to be from a white working class background sandals, nor do I for pleasure read most of The Guardian. and wants to get into the industry be deprived of doing I find The Guardian extremely useful for one thing. If so just because of discrimination that took place in the I ever wake up and feel my political energy flagging, I past? read the letters page of The Guardian and that reminds me why I am a Conservative and why there needs to be a Damian Green: I return to the point I have been Conservative Government in this country—if only to making for the past couple of minutes about the distinction keep people such as that out of power. So The Guardian between positive action and positive discrimination. serves a tremendously useful purpose in my life. Specifically on the training courses my hon. Friend Positive action is about counteracting the effects of mentions, if a job were open only to people with a historical discrimination and disadvantage by providing particular characteristic, that would be discrimination opportunities for those who are disadvantaged or under- and would be unlawful. However, saying that one is represented to gain skills that would enable them to finding it very difficult to attract a particular group of compete fairly and openly for jobs and to reach their people even to think about applying for a job, and potential. There are practical benefits for businesses perhaps having an open day or some training aimed attached to the use of those measures and I shall return specifically at those people is positive action. At the to them later. However, I very much take the point relevant point—at the point of offering a job—everyone made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North should be treated equally and there should not be any (Mr Nuttall); we need to consider the needs of businesses, discrimination. Positive action is about trying to ensure particularly small and medium-sized ones, although as that nobody is excluded from operating on their own I say there are the practical benefits. merits or from applying for a particular job or position. A common misconception confuses positive action There was a debate a few minutes ago about the and positive discrimination; some people talk about different measures used by different political parties in the two interchangeably. It is important to establish that attempting to encourage more women to come into the there is a clear distinction between them. Positive House of Commons. I think there was a very neat discrimination is treatment that favours a person solely dichotomy in that the Conservative party adopted measures because they have a particular protected characteristic, short of all-women shortlists such as encouraging, irrespective of whether there are special circumstances. mentoring and training, which resulted in a large number In other words, the treatment discriminates in their of new women colleagues for my hon. Friend and I in favour whether or not they experience a disadvantage this Parliament, which we both welcome. The Conservatives connected to that protected characteristic or have particular did not go down the very crude route of the all-women needs that are different from those of people without shortlist that the Labour party introduced in the late that protected characteristic. 1990s, so there are different ways of achieving what is a 1229 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1230

[Damian Green] I make it clear that the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 contain explicit built-in safeguards to ensure that desirable thing—equality of opportunity. Some ways they are not misused. The provisions allow the use of are discriminatory and some are not, and the Government’s positive action specifically in the process of recruitment policy seeks to ensure that we maintain that very important and promotion in limited circumstances. Positive action distinction and continue to have positive action so that can therefore only be used in the process of recruitment everyone can be treated equally, but that we do not and promotion for specific purposes: to overcome or inadvertently fall into the trap that my hon. Friend minimise a disadvantage, or to increase participation in rightly warns us about of discriminating against those activities, or where the candidates are as qualified as who do not have the particular protected characteristics. each other to carry out the job under consideration, or In many ways, that is at the heart of the debate: we need where the action is a proportionate means of addressing to maintain that distinction. the particular disadvantage or under-representation, One of the Government’s aims is to speed up the rate and where the employer does not have an automatic of progress in achieving gender equality in various policy of treating people who share a protected characteristic sectors, particularly by promoting gender equality on more favourably than those who do not have protected the boards of listed companies and by increasing female characteristics. representation in politics. Progress on those fronts can To help employers who want to use positive action to be attained using the wide range of measures that are do so lawfully, a step-by-step practical guide to using available to companies and other institutions under positive action when making appointments is available positive action. My hon. Friend and others will have on the Government Equalities Office website. It will heard the Prime Minister recently acknowledge in the help an employer to ask all the relevant questions and House that the use of positive action is necessary on ensure transparency at every stage of the recruitment occasions to redress gender disparities in boardrooms and appointment process. and in politics. Remedies are available to possible victims of positive In any case, lest we forget and think that using action. Any participant who deems that the positive positive action places huge regulatory or financial burdens action measures used by an organisation in its recruitment on bodies—my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North and promotion process have not been fair to them, or a made that point—the use of any positive action measure person who believes they have been deterred from taking is entirely voluntary and there is no mandatory requirement part in such a process, could bring a claim against the for any organisation to use positive action. If an organisation. It would ultimately be up to any employer organisation thinks there will be no real benefits to it using positive action in recruitment to ensure that the from taking positive action measures, it does not have assessment process is proportionate to achieving the to do so. The voluntary nature of positive action means aim of addressing a disadvantage or under-representation, there are no associated mandatory burdens on organisations that it is transparent and that they can sufficiently if they do not take such measures. That point is significant justify how they make a choice between candidates. but is often missed in these debates. It cannot be too strongly emphasised that the principle Before I address the use of positive action in matters of merit should always apply in any recruitment or of recruitment and promotion, I should like to draw the promotion process that uses positive action measures. attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley to As I have already said, under these measures, a person clause 2 of his Bill, which would make it unlawful to use cannot be appointed solely because they possess a certain positive action for any of the listed protected characteristics protected characteristic that is disadvantaged or under- as well as for socio-economic status. The current positive represented in the workplace. That would constitute action provisions do not permit measures to be taken to unlawful discrimination. address issues solely relating to the socio-economic An employer faced with making a choice between inequality. He might be aware that the Government two or more candidates who are as qualified as each were not persuaded by the arguments for a public sector other to undertake the post in question can take into duty relating to socio-economic inequalities in the 2010 consideration whether any of the candidates possesses a Act and that they have already decided not to commence protected characteristic that is disadvantaged or those provisions, which will be repealed at a future date. disproportionately under-represented in the work force. I hope that he and I can agree on that point if on no However, this does not mean that the candidates under other. consideration have to be identical in every respect. Any I turn specifically to the effect of the Bill, the aim of consideration of merit should take into account the which is to prohibit the use of positive action by public relevant facts of their competence, ability, experience authorities in recruitment and appointment processes. and any formal qualifications that may be relevant to The Bill would, as drafted, create a two-tier system the particular job. under which it would be lawful for private organisations Among other things, the Bill would put a stop to the to continue to use positive action measures in recruitment setting and pursuit of targets in relation to recruitment and appointment processes, but not for public authorities. and promotion. Targets are not quotas, nor are they the That would mean that public authorities would not same as positive action. Targets are the end that an have the same benefits of opportunity open to them in organisation wishes to achieve, while positive action is, recruitment as private sector organisations. Not only essentially, the measures that an organisation can take does this disparity seem unfair, but it could be confusing in order to achieve its aim. Targets allow organisations for employers, especially private organisations that deliver to direct a range of programmes, initiatives, products services under contract to or on behalf of a public and services at particular groups of people who are authority, but which may not normally be considered under-represented in certain activities, or because of public authorities themselves. poor take-up of services or activities. Such action would 1231 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1232 enable these groups to acquire the necessary skills to recommendations are implemented effectively without compete for jobs or to access services tailored to their recourse to some of the measures that my hon. Friend specific needs. It is perfectly permissible in the UK to would regard as draconian. set targets that are intended to provide an incentive for I am happy to report to the House that good progress people to improve and achieve certain goals. has been made in implementing the recommendations. Of course, targets are not limitless; they either evolve In May, the Financial Reporting Council launched its as an organisation’s priorities change over the years, or consultation on changes to the UK corporate governance they come to their natural end. I think there is a fear code. The headhunting industry has agreed a voluntary that this is an endless path going in one direction. code on diversity, which was launched in July 2011. The Clearly, an organisation may decide that it has done Association of Executive Search Consultants will champion what it needs to do to meet a target that it has set itself the code to its members, and there is an increasing and for representation within its work force, or its boardroom, strong sense of ownership and action in FTSE 100 or its parliamentary party or whatever, and at that point businesses, including company secretaries, who will in the existing legislative framework entirely permits the many cases be the key figure in the organisation. organisation to get off the track and continue its normal business as it would have done if it had never introduced Philip Davies: I really must press the Minister on this, those measures. because some things are more voluntary than others. If As I mentioned, an important priority for the the Government say to organisations, “This is what we Government is to increase the number of women in the expect of you; if you don’t do it, we will force you to do boardroom and in civic and public life. The key to it,” and the Government then start reporting progress, achieving that is not through the setting of strict that is not voluntary—at least not in my eyes. It is a very employment quotas such as reserving a number of curious definition of “voluntary”. If businesses do not posts only for women, which would in any case be hit the artificial target in Lord Davies’s report, will the unlawful—I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend the Government act? From what the Minister says, it sounds Member for Shipley and the House that the Government as if the Government will not act and force businesses have absolutely no intention of changing that position—but to take action if they do not do so themselves. through the use of voluntary measures and initiatives. The difference between the targets that I have been Damian Green: What I am saying is that the bodies talking about and the quotas that my hon. Friend is are already acting themselves, so the undesirable outcome rightly sceptical about is that the target can be worked of which my hon. Friend is fearful will not happen. I towards naturally over a period spent developing people have talked about various organisations; let me mention in order that the organisation can hit the target, whereas specific companies. Centrica, BT and Barclays have all a quota must be filled whether or not there are suitable provided programmes or initiatives to assist in the people available to fill it. That is the absolutely crucial recruitment, retention, development and advancement practical distinction. If we tried to force organisations of women and persons from other protected groups in to fill quotas, less qualified people would be appointed the workplace, and to broaden their career aspirations. to positions, which would be unfair on those who were That makes the point that I alluded to earlier: good and better qualified, and in the long term damaging for the constructive use of positive action is not woolly-minded, institution concerned. If the legislation currently in or political correctness gone mad, or whatever the place had that effect, or indeed that intention, I would cliché du jour is; it has practical benefits for the organisations share all my hon. Friend’s worries about it, but it does that voluntarily opt for it. not, and just as the distinction between positive I refer my hon. Friend to a report published in 2008 discrimination and positive action is key, the difference by the CBI, the TUC and the Equality and Human between targets and quotas is absolutely key. We have a Rights Commission entitled “Talent not Tokenism: the sensible, practical set of measures that can allows business benefits of workforce diversity”. It showed organisations to improve themselves, not something that diversity in an organisation promotes productivity that is over-burdensome. and efficiency, and increases market opportunities. Several UK employers recognise the benefits of positive action; Philip Davies: I am interested in what the Minister it fills skill gaps while generating a more diverse work has to say. Will he clarify this point? I understood from force. That added diversity in turn gives employers a what I have read in the media—I concede that one better understanding of customers’ needs, opening up should not always believe everything one reads in the new markets and attracting new business. papers—that the Government have let it be known that More businesses than ever, including FTSE companies if boardrooms do not hit the target set by Lord Davies, at all levels—those in the FTSE 100, FTSE 250 and if they do not go themselves voluntarily to hit that FTSE 350—are using voluntary positive action measures target, the Government will act. Can the Minister assure to improve the diversity of their top management and the House now that if they do not hit the artificial, boards of executive and non-executive directors. Lord arbitrary targets that Lord Davies set in his report, the Davies’s report, to which my hon. Friend referred, Government will not act? acknowledged that corporate boards perform better when they comprise experienced people with a greater Damian Green: I do not accept that the targets are range of skills, perspectives and backgrounds. His report necessarily arbitrary or artificial. We are very keen that indicated that there is a business case for increasing the organisations should hit their targets for women in diversity of corporate boards, and especially for gender- boardrooms; the Government strongly welcomed the diverse boards, so that businesses can draw on the full Lord Davies report and we are now at the stage of range of available talent and achieve effective governance working with business and others to ensure that the and performance. 1233 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill21 OCTOBER 2011 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 1234

[Damian Green] We have had a great deal of discussion about the under-representation of women elected to the House—only To address my hon. Friend’s point directly, Lord 144 of 650 Members are women, equating to about 22% Davies’s report ruled out the setting of mandatory of MPs—and it is widely agreed across the House that quotas to compel businesses to appoint female directors although progress has been made, it is not yet complete to their boards, so my hon. Friend is right not to believe and there is a need for political parties to make the everything that he reads in the media. The statistics are House more representative of the diverse population in stark. The proportion of women on FTSE 100 company this country, because that will enable us to deliver better boards is 14.2%, and the figure is 8.9% for FTSE 250 governance. companies. Previously, almost half the FTSE 250 companies had no women director on their board. A recently I should point out to my hon. Friend the Member for published report by the Cranfield School of Management Shipley and to the House as a whole that the use of on the progress made on some of the recommendations those provisions is time-limited, as they are due to outlined in the Davies report shows that, for the first expire in 2030 when, we hope, the representation of time, a minority of FTSE 250 companies have all-male women in political or other elected office will have boards. Moving down the size scale, FTSE 350 companies increased significantly.The provisions do, however, contain face an even greater challenge in increasing female a power to allow a Minister to extend their use beyond representation on their boards. 2030 if insufficient progress has been made in increasing female representation. Given the fact that we have given My hon. Friend may have heard of the 30% Club, ourselves two decades to achieve that aim, I hope that which comprises a group of UK company chairmen, if we can do so without requiring that extension. I am allowed to use that word, who are voluntarily committed to bringing more women on to UK corporate By attempting to prevent the use of positive action boards. The 30% Club supports a voluntary target to under what I hope I have persuaded hon. Members are ensure that every UK corporate board has at least 30% entirely appropriate circumstances, the aims of the Bill female representation by 2015. contradict government policy to promote fairness, equality and diversity and to tackle under-representation in targeted areas such as “women on company boards” Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I think and “elected office”. Many public authorities have long that the Minister is going slightly wider than the Bill, so used forms of positive action in relation to matters could he perhaps drag it back to public authorities? connected to recruitment and promotion, and they strongly support the continued use of those provisions. Damian Green: I shall certainly drag it back to public Some registered political parties have successfully used authorities, and indeed specifically to the proposal by these measures in recent years and, as far as I am aware, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley to repeal the there is no opposition from any of the major political Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002, in parties to using positive action to redress gender which I know you have a particular interest, Mr Deputy representation. Speaker. The effect of the Bill would not be what I think my hon. Friend intends, because the majority of that The key thing to remember is that the use of any form Act has already been repealed by the Equality Act 2010. of positive action in our country is entirely voluntary, I urge him to look at schedule 27 of that Act—the whether it is in providing services, in employment-related repeals and revocations schedule—which repeals most matters, in increasing participation in particular activities, of the Act that he seeks to repeal. The 2002 Act has or in politics. Organisations will use the provisions only largely been repealed because the provisions relating to if there is a real benefit for them in doing so. Without elections in England, Scotland and Wales are now contained the use of positive action, it would not be possible to in the Equality Act 2010. Repealing what remains extant develop the initiatives outlined in the coalition programme of the 2002 Act would not achieve what I assume to be for government to tackle the numerous barriers to the aim of the Bill, as the provisions relating to the social mobility and equal opportunities that exist in our selection of election candidates would continue to be society in relation to age, gender, race, religion and permissible for registered political parties in Scotland, sexual orientation. It is not possible to build a fairer England and Wales if they chose to use them. society without being able to take the necessary measures to end discrimination in the workplace; to promote What remain extant of the Sex Discrimination (Election gender equality on the boards of listed companies; to Candidates) Act are provisions that relate solely to promote improved community relations and opportunities Northern Ireland. The 2002 Act amends the Sex for people of black and minority ethnic backgrounds; Discrimination (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, permitting to provide internships for under-represented groups; political parties to adopt single-sex shortlists when selecting and to fund targeted mentoring schemes to help under- candidates for elections to certain bodies. Repealing the represented groups to start businesses. It is clear that 2002 Act would only create further confusion and disparity, my hon. Friend’s Bill would remove this voluntary but as the provisions relating to electoral shortlists could important opportunity for organisations and political continue to be used in England, Scotland and Wales, parties to make strides in tackling the continued but not in Northern Ireland. disadvantage and under-representation experienced by In any case, we consider that the provisions relating persons with protected characteristics in work forces to the selection of election candidates remain a legitimate and in civic, public and political life across the UK. To tool for parties that wish to use them. The provisions stop the use of positive action would cause a major enable registered political parties to take action to address setback in the progress already made in addressing any disparity in their representation of men and women disadvantage or under-representation in our society. I in elected office, including the use of women-only shortlists. therefore urge my hon. Friend to withdraw his Bill. 1235 Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill 21 OCTOBER 2011 1236

1.20 pm Master’s Degrees (Minimum Philip Davies: With the leave of the House, may I Standards) Bill thank everybody who has contributed to the debate, Second Reading those who supported my Bill—I particularly thank my hon. Friends the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) for 1.35 pm their typically robust comments on my behalf—and Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to those who contributed to the debate even though they move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. did not agree with me? This Bill would resolve a straightforward question— It is sad that in this age it is so difficult to persuade should some universities have the right to award a free Members of the merits of the principle that people master’s degree, while at every other university hundreds should be given jobs on merit, and merit alone. It is like of thousands of students have to work hard to earn pushing water uphill to try and make the case for that theirs? It is difficult to believe, but the practice of basic and, I should have thought, obvious proposition. converting a bachelor’s degree into a master’s without On that note I shall conclude the debate and press the exams, extra study or tuition fees still exists. Only some motion to a Division. 3,000 lucky bachelor’s degree graduates of only two Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second universities—Oxford and Cambridge—are able to list time. an impressive-looking postgraduate qualification on their The House proceeded to a Division. CVs each year, for nothing more than a £10 administration charge, and without even the £10 fee at Cambridge. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the In what must rank as one of the most byzantine relics Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No of a bygone era—other than private Member’s Bill Lobby. Fridays—these complimentary master of arts degrees The House having divided: Ayes 3, Noes 39. require nothing more than a 21-term period to elapse after matriculation before these fortunate few graduates Division No. 371] [1.21 pm have their bachelor’s degrees automatically upgraded. Neil Dodgson, a Cambridge professor, says that AYES “many find it offensive that we should award a degree for doing Bone, Mr Peter Tellers for the Ayes: nothing more than being able to breathe for three years.” Hollobone, Mr Philip Philip Davies and In contrast, the vast majority of ordinary postgraduate Rees-Mogg, Jacob Mr David Nuttall students have to earn their degree the hard way, often paying a £4,500 or higher tuition fee, studying for a year NOES or more, completing coursework, exams, dissertations, Ali, Rushanara Hurd, Mr Nick and so on. Many of those who earn their master’s Austin, Ian Jackson, Glenda degrees are completely unaware that they could be Bellingham, Mr Henry Kawczynski, Daniel competing for future employment with candidates declaring Blunt, Mr Crispin Leslie, Chris their MA(Oxon) or MA(Cantab) at the head of their Bryant, Chris Loughton, Tim CV. Is that really fair? Clearly not. Campbell, Mr Alan Milton, Anne Eleven years ago, the Quality Assurance Agency for Creagh, Mary Neill, Robert Higher Education said: David, Mr Wayne O’Brien, Mr Stephen Eagle, Ms Angela “The Masters title causes much misunderstanding...most employers Paice, rh Mr James Fallon, Michael think it always represents an award for postgraduate study”. Fitzpatrick, Jim Penrose, John A survey the agency conducted found that more than Francois, rh Mr Mark Robinson, Mr Geoffrey 60% of recruiters were unaware of the honorary nature Freer, Mike Sanders, Mr Adrian of this so-called higher degree. Gardiner, Barry Seabeck, Alison The time has come to end this anachronism, and a Gauke, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa growing body of opinion believes it is time to draw Gilbert, Stephen Willetts, rh Mr David Grayling, rh Chris a veil over these arrangements. I should state for the Wright, Mr Iain record that I do not blame anyone from Oxbridge for Greatrex, Tom Young, rh Sir George Green, Damian taking the opportunity presented to them—chance would Hamilton, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: be a fine thing. But if we set aside the cheeky sense Hendry, Charles Greg Hands and of privilege, even the most battle-hardened defenders of Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Jeremy Wright elitism have to admit that the total and utter lack of merit behind this apparently great award is unfair. Question accordingly negatived. Indeed, it is now surely in the best interests of modern and open Oxford and Cambridge universities for them to voluntarily relinquish this privilege and prove that they are beacons of genuine learning and earned distinction. I have written to both universities challenging them to reconsider voluntarily and phase out these arrangements without the need for legislation. Unfortunately, they are gambling that no one will disturb their long-standing privileges. But there is still time and I hope that the Minister will join me in urging Oxford and Cambridge to take seriously the palpable objections to these give-away 1237 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 21 OCTOBER 2011 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 1238 Standards) Bill Standards) Bill [Chris Leslie] Thirty years ago, much like today, the economic situation put unemployment high on the national agenda. degrees. They undermine valid qualifications from other It seemed to me that the purpose of education was to universities. They entrench an artificial distinction between get a job. In the summer of 1980, I was therefore faced students and higher education institutions. They confuse with a dilemma: did I sit around, unemployed, and employers and create the risk that genuine achievements hope for something to turn up, did I take an alternative are misrepresented. They demoralise those who spend further education course, or did I look for a job? As years of their lives to achieve something that others get luck would have it, I got the job that I applied for as a for nothing. They risk devaluing the genuine calibre trainee legal executive. I accept that I am very fortunate and reputation of British higher education. Some will because I have applied for only one job in my life. argue that this is a harmless practice and that everyone I make that point not to digress, but because it leads knows that it is not really a masters degree. Unfortunately, on to what happened a few days later. I was offered the however, not everyone is in the loop, and plenty of opportunity to go to Hull university, not to do a law people will be hoodwinked by the free degree. degree, but to do a degree in economics, philosophy and I could argue that one solution is to allow everyone sociology, or some other three-study degree. I thought with a bachelor’s degree the same chance to get a free long and hard, and had many sleepless nights thinking master’s thrown in, but that would be daft. Instead, I about whether I should give up the job that I had just propose a simple, and surely uncontentious Bill. It got and do a course that I did not really want to follow would require the Quality Assurance Agency to report at university. I was told that it might be possible to swap within three months on the measures necessary to establish courses, but I decided not to go to university in the a minimum standard—a very minimum standard—of conventional way, but to stay at the small firm of academic achievement for all master’s degrees awarded solicitors that I had joined. I was forced to continue my by higher education institutions in England. Hon. Members legal education at night school, studying in the evenings may be surprised to learn that there are no basic or and at weekends. I started at Richmond college doing fundamental yardsticks of that sort to ensure academic the trainee legal executive exams, as they were in those rigour across the board, but sadly that is the case. A days, for the Institute of Legal Executives. simple threshold would ensure that future postgraduate It was only after I had been doing those studies for a degrees are all awarded on the basis of the proven hard couple of years that I realised that if ever I was to work of students who have undertaken a course of achieve my long-term ambition of becoming a solicitor, study. Basic standards and fair play should not be too I needed to obtain a law degree. In those days, it was far much to ask. The time has come for us to end this less common than it is today to obtain a law degree by unmerited and confusing patronage once and for all. correspondence. In a nutshell, it meant that one had to do the same exams to the same standard as everyone 1.40 pm who had attended the university of London as an Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As always, it is internal student, without the benefit—although some a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham might think it a disadvantage—of living in London and East (Chris Leslie). I seem to recall that I was in the attending the lectures. It required a degree of rigour and Chamber some months ago when his Bill was introduced self-denial, because at evenings and weekends it was by way of the ten-minute rule process, and as a consequence necessary to stay in when ones friends were going out of that, we are here today debating its Second Reading. and doing the things that 18 and 19-year-olds do. I am sure that he is pleased that it has reached this stage Actually, I was probably in my early 20s by the time I so swiftly. had started the degree. I had to persevere down that route. In most United Kingdom universities, the MA—master’s of arts—degree is a free-standing graduate degree awarded by examination. I should say at the outset that I approach Chris Leslie: I am very interested in the hon. Gentleman’s this subject entirely without any prejudgment of the personal history, but he will be aware that time is case, because I did not attend either Oxford or Cambridge, pressing and that the sitting finishes at 2.30. It would be or, indeed, Dublin university. I did a rather unusual useful to hear from the Minister and others on the thing, in many ways. I think I am probably in a minority specific issue of the integrity of the master’s degree. I in the House in that I obtained my bachelor of law would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman was swift with degree by correspondence through the university of his remarks. London. It had always been my intention to try to go university Mr Nuttall: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I after I had completed my secondary education, and will address that point in detail shortly. I just wanted to most people thought that that would happen, but in make the point that I am in no way biased about the those days, 30 years ago—I hardly dare say it—the merits or otherwise of someone having an MA from number of universities and the application process was Oxford, Cambridge or Dublin after their name just rather different from today. One had to apply to various because I did not go down that particular route. In fact, universities and was given grades that one had to achieve the first time I came across the practice—I had not in order to meet the requirements of the course that one known that such things were possible—was not until I had applied for. I had applied for law degree courses, was at the firm of solicitors that I mentioned. One of which usually came back with quite a high requirement the partners who had joined after me had been to in terms of the grades that had to be achieved in order Cambridge, and he had a law degree. Upon paying to attend. In the event—it is a matter of record and whatever the requisite fee was, he became a master of widely known—I did not get the grades that I needed to arts. It was only through chatting with him at that time be able to attend such a course. that I discovered the practice. I hope the House will 1239 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 21 OCTOBER 2011 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 1240 Standards) Bill Standards) Bill therefore accept that my comments are made in the “the Oxford MA is about reaching a new status within the light of that background, and that I am completely University and not an upgrade of your BA or an additional neutral. qualification.” I understand that the universities of Oxford, Cambridge It is perhaps worth mentioning a couple of the comments and Dublin award BA graduates MAs without postgraduate that Oxford and Cambridge made following remarks by work after an allotted period. At the university of an academic at Cambridge university’s computer laboratory Dublin, those who have a bachelor of arts degree may in May last year. Cambridge university’s council said proceed to the degree of master of arts after a period of that the degree was valuable. It stated: three years and payment of a fee of ¤637. “The council believes that the (MA) degree continues to serve valuable purposes which outweigh any negative external perceptions I accept that concerns have been raised about the of it. The QAA (Quality Assurance Agency) is well aware of the practice in previous years. They were perhaps first degree’s status and has not expressed any concerns about it.” noted in the House back in 2000, when Jackie Lawrence, According to Cherwell, an independent student newspaper the Labour MP for Preseli Pembrokeshire, tabled an at the university of Oxford, a spokesman from the early-day motion. I understand that it was signed by Oxford university press office said that the issue had more than 50 right hon. and hon. Members, and that it been raised by an MP, and that it was therefore difficult proposed, I believe for the first time, that the Oxbridge to gauge public opinion on whether the system should MA be phased out. In the same year, the Quality be changed. Assurance Agency for Higher Education—the university standards watchdog, if I can call it that—reviewed the I understand that the universities have concerns about issue as part of its attempts to create a uniform system how up to date the research on which the QAA has of master’s degrees for employers in the United Kingdom based its findings was. Although there are concerns and the rest of the world. One can well understand the about the nature of Oxbridge MA degrees, they are not need for some form of standardisation across the universities widespread. I have met dozens of employers over the sector, so that employers know what they are dealing with. years, and I have never heard one of them say that they The practice of what might be called the ancient are confused by the Oxbridge and Dublin system of universities—I think that is the correct term for Oxbridge— awarding MA degrees. I am also not aware that any actually dates back to mediaeval times, when study for a business has been duped or suffered any loss as a result liberal arts degree typically took seven years and the of employing someone from Oxbridge or Dublin who degree was awarded in two parts. The bachelor of arts has gone down the route of having their degree upgraded degree was awarded at the end of undergraduate studies, in that way. then the master of arts degree was undertaken, which In the same way, when speaking to graduates of other gave the student the licence to teach. Until the 17th century, universities who have undertaken a course of study for the Oxbridge student completed the study of the BA their MA degree, I have never come across any ill-feeling and then usually remained at the institution for a further towards Oxbridge graduates because of how they have three years. As is the case today, the student became a achieved their MA award. One has to ask whether it is full member of the university after being awarded the such a problem that it warrants the abolition of the MA degree. I understand that that is one reason why long-standing and traditional practice of those two most students take up the opportunity to move from a ancient universities. In many ways, it marks them out as BA to an MA. I would be interested to know whether special; today most people would still accept that having anyone has the precise statistics on that. an Oxbridge degree is different and more special than By the end of the 17th century, for reasons that are having one from other universities. not known nowadays, the system had completely changed The fact that the Oxbridge MA is awarded in replacement and the MA was awarded to candidates without the of, and not in addition to, the award of a bachelor’s need for them to continue their studies any further. I degree is particularly noteworthy. To me, that strongly should briefly add that American universities developed makes it clear that it is based on academic rank rather the doctorate course, with the effect that the MA began than academic merit. The four ancient universities of to hold a place above the baccalaureate and below the Scotland—St Andrew’s, Glasgow, Aberdeen and doctorate. The university of London adopted that model, Edinburgh—award MA degrees as first degrees in certain moving away from the mediaeval practice. Newer subjects, as do Dundee and Heriot Watt universities. universities followed that lead, with the result that the How Trinity College Dublin awards MA degrees is practice at Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin, which might similar to how Oxford and Cambridge do. be called the Oxbridge and Dublin model, is now considered Oxbridge MA degrees are distinct in purpose and by some to be an anomaly. nature. For example, they give the right to vote in At Cambridge, the MA is conferred by right on all elections for the chancellor of the university.The universities those who have obtained a BA degree not less than six and the QAA make it absolutely clear that the MA years from the end of a graduate’s first term of residence, degrees are not academic qualifications. The granting providing that they have held their BA for at least two of master of arts degrees is, I believe, a matter for the years. An MA degree is not available at the university of universities themselves to consider as autonomous Cambridge as a postgraduate qualification. institutions primarily responsible for academic standards. On the other hand, the Oxford MA degree, following I wonder to what extent they would welcome what one long-standing tradition, like at the university of Cambridge, might call the intrusion into their affairs by the House. is a mark of seniority within the university that may be UK universities have thrived under the existing system; conferred after a period of 21 terms—seven years—after recent statistics show that only the United States of matriculation. An MA is not available at the university America boasts more institutions than the United Kingdom of Oxford as a postgraduate qualification. Oxford’s in the top 200 of the Times Higher Education world guidance to students on the Oxford MA states that university rankings for 2011-12. In the light of that 1241 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 21 OCTOBER 2011 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 1242 Standards) Bill Standards) Bill [Mr Nuttall] It is important to say at the outset—and the hon. Member for Bury North alluded to this—that the relevant evidence, there is nothing to suggest that the qualification framework for England, Wales and Northern Ireland is damaging their world-class reputations. Both Oxford published in 2008 states categorically: and Cambridge offer a range of taught master’s degrees, “The Master of Arts (MA) granted by the University of none of which is called an MA. We must not lose sight Oxford and the University of Cambridge are not academic of the fact that there are real inequalities of opportunity qualifications.” in education. In the last year for which figures are Similarly, the Scottish credit and qualifications framework available, just 40 of the 80,000 pupils eligible for free published in 2009 states that in a small number of school meals made it to Oxbridge. universities in Scotland the Scottish bachelor’s degree is entitled “MA”, although that, too, in most cases, is not Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The a master’s degree. hon. Gentleman is now going wider than what is in the I shall address the reputation of UK universities and Bill. He should go back to talking about master’s degrees. the importance of overseas students in a moment. First, let me say that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham Mr Nuttall: It is certainly essential that qualifications East is right to suggest that many students who are awarded by higher education institutions meet national thinking of coming to study in our ancient universities academic standards to ensure that the world-class reputation might be unclear about the status of an MA from one of our United Kingdom higher education institutions is university to another. Of course, they would undertake maintained. I will listen closely to the rest of the debate, research—and perhaps they should not think of but, on balance, I am probably minded to follow my undertaking an MA if they cannot do such rudimentary normal instinct—“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” research—but I stress, as I think my hon. Friend would, that clarity, fairness and transparency would be beneficial It is probably right that the issue should remain to all concerned. primarily within the remit of those individual universities. However, I can well see why folk might think it rather There has been much discussion in recent months strange that in this day and age this ancient anomaly is about the future shape of the UK economy and how we allowed to survive. However, it does not seem to cause will pay our way in the world in the face of intense anyone any great problem, concern, upset or loss. I global competition. It is clear to me that this country would need to be convinced by yet more evidence, needs to play to its strengths and provide help and which I have not seen so far in the debate, that this is an support to those areas of economic activity where Britain appropriate time to end this long-standing practice. I leads the world and has an ambition to continue to lead shall listen closely to the remainder of the debate. the world in future. One of these world-beating sectors is undoubtedly higher education. Britain has led the world and has an enviable reputation on higher education 2.4 pm institutions. As the hon. Member for Bury North said, the Times Higher Education world university rankings Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I am honoured to for 2011/12 show that three of our universities are in the have my first run out at the Dispatch Box in my new world’s top 10, with the only other country in the top 10 role as shadow Minister for competitiveness and enterprise being the United States. Of the world’s top 200 universities, on the seventh anniversary of my maiden speech in the 32 are British—a figure that is again surpassed only by House, which I delivered from the other side of the the US. This broad base of excellence in higher education Chamber. I have to say that I much preferred it on that should be celebrated and nurtured as much as possible. side of the House and I hope, for the good of the For the particular discipline of science and engineering—an country, that we will change places with the current academic discipline in which we should aspire to lead Government very soon. the world, and one that should have considerable marketable I was enthralled by the speech of the hon. Member commercial opportunities in the modern global economy— for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and I am grateful to him three British universities are in the top 10. for saving me the cost, expense and trouble of buying We have seen a real success story for higher education his political memoirs. I shall just look at today’s Hansard institutions in this country in the past decade. The to learn about his political upbringing. sector educates about 2.5 million students annually, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for with a 28% increase in student numbers in the past Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on bringing the Bill 10 years. Some 400,000 overseas students attend our before the House. He mentioned during his ten-minute higher education institutions each year, largely because rule speech on the Bill in February and again this of this country’s leading reputation in higher education, afternoon that most postgraduate students who hope to particularly postgraduate education. This provides the receive an MA will often undergo further intense study, national economy with an additional £2.5 billion each will have their knowledge and application tested by year. It is particularly interesting, and relevant to the examination and will often pay substantial tuition fees subject under discussion, that full-time postgraduate for the privilege. He is right to suggest that we should numbers have increased during the past decade by question whether it is right and fair to have a dual almost three quarters, largely due to the increase in system of obtaining MAs under which some people non-UK students, who tend to study at postgraduate work hard for a substantial period and others simply level. attend a particular institution and pay a £10 admin fee. Our higher education institutions are true incubators It is also right that we pay tribute, as he did, to the hard for innovation, undertaking research and development work and dedication of tens of thousands of postgraduate at master’s and PhD level. Postgraduate students at our students. higher education institutions are undertaking research, 1243 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 21 OCTOBER 2011 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 1244 Standards) Bill Standards) Bill and providing the learning and knowledge that will be Chris Leslie: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister at applied commercially to supply modern products that the beginning of his speech. Is there a particular reason British companies can then sell to the rest of the world. why use of the title master of arts is needed to confer We should be celebrating and supporting them. those rights? Surely, he must admit that the university In those circumstances, it is important that there is could confer the rights without the confusing mark of clarity and transparency to ensure that students who master of arts. wish to study for a master’s qualification are fully aware of its requirements and standards. In March 2010, the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education published Mr Willetts: I will turn later in my remarks to the a new reference point, “Master’s degree characteristics”. challenge, which the hon. Gentleman has raised again, The QAA states that the of whether the arrangement is confusing, but, historically, the way in which membership of the convocation has “landscape for master’s degrees in the UK is flexible and diverse”, been conferred is through the MA. Obviously, it which is something that the Opposition certainly want provides those rights to vote that I mentioned. Of to encourage and develop. course, it has been considered from time to time, both in One of the reasons the higher education sector in the Oxford and Cambridge, whether that arrangement should UK is appreciated throughout the world is its flexibility continue. For example, in the Franks review of Oxford, and diversity, and the Opposition do not want to put its anomalous nature was noted, but it was decided that that at risk. We fear, however, that the Government’s it was overall a feature of the system that should be changes to HE will hinder choice, reduce the subjects preserved. on offer at postgraduate level at our HE institutions and ultimately undermine Britain’s global competitive The Government of course attach great importance advantage in higher education. to rigorous national academic standards, and I agree with what the hon. Member for Nottingham East said As has already been said, HE institutions are and with the remarks by the shadow Minister, whom I autonomous, and they will do as they see fit, based on welcome to his new post and to the debate. We share what they wish to achieve for themselves and their pride in the world-class reputation of higher education students. I do not want to propose anything that would in the UK, and we have a shared recognition that that put that under threat. I also do not want to burden the international reputation depends on confidence in the sector with additional or excessive regulation, particularly standards of our universities and confidence that they when it is enduring the biggest upheaval in its funding are properly regulated through independent quality arrangements for many years. The Bill proposed by my audit. Higher education councils have a statutory hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East is not responsibility to ensure the quality of the higher particularly bureaucratic or excessive. It promotes education provision that they fund, but primary transparency and clarity, and does nothing to undermine responsibility for academic standards and quality rests either the reputation of our higher education institutions with individual universities and colleges, each of which or the unique historical shape and culture of our ancient is self-governing and has its own internal quality universities. We believe that some of the issues raised assurance procedures, complemented by the external could be best explored further in Committee, so I hope quality assurance carried out by the Quality Assurance that the House will give the Bill the fair wind it deserves Agency for Higher Education. The QAA is the key and allow it a Second Reading. agency in ensuring that quality control, and we support and value its work. 2.12 pm The QAA has itself tried to engage with the issue The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David from time to time. Its 2008 framework for higher education Willetts): I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham qualifications includes the following statement: East (Chris Leslie) on driving the House to focus on an interesting curiosity in our higher education system. I “The Master of Arts (MA) granted by the University of declare a kind of interest as one of the people who did Oxford and the University of Cambridge are not academic indeed shell out—eventually—to buy my MA, in order qualifications. The MA is normally granted, on application, to graduates of these universities with a Bachelor of Arts (BA). No to vote in the elections for the chancellor of the University further study or assessment is required, but the recipient may be of Oxford and for the professor of poetry. I declare that required to pay a fee. interest. At the University of Oxford, the MA may be granted during or Let me describe briefly exactly what the Oxford and after the twenty-first term from matriculation and at the University Cambridge MAs are. The Oxford regulations set out of Cambridge the MA may be granted six years after the end of clearly their understanding of the degree of master of the first term.” arts: in essence, the holder of the degree of bachelor of arts or bachelor of fine art may with the approval of So that is the position, which the QAA has set out very their college apply for the degree of master of arts after explicitly. the 21st term from his or her matriculation. The current The universities of Oxford and Cambridge have been fee for admission at Oxford is £10, and the qualification clear themselves about the status of the MA. I quote confers membership of convocation and the right to from a letter from the University of Cambridge that vote for the chancellor and the professor of poetry. was actually sent to the hon. Member for Nottingham Membership of convocation is part of the argument. East: As Oxford’s regulations suggest, it is a means whereby “It has always been well recognised that our M.A. is not a all graduates of the university qualification obtained by postgraduate study but, rather, is a “have an opportunity for some continued formal involvement in mark of status and experience which gives its holders certain the life of the university, supplementing…the links that colleges rights within Cambridge, particularly in their participation in our develop with their old members.” democratic governance structures”. 1245 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 21 OCTOBER 2011 Master’s Degrees (Minimum 1246 Standards) Bill Standards) Bill Chris Leslie: It might have been well recognised by their MAs from elsewhere. I commend to him the the closed circle within Oxford and Cambridge themselves, formulations now explicitly used by the QAA and set but the rest of the world does not recognise that, so out in statements from the universities in question: the surely the Minister would have to acknowledge that MAs that we are talking about are “not academic clinging to the pretence of the title Master of Arts qualifications.” degree is a complete and utter nonsense. For us to act, we would not only have to be persuaded of the problem of confusion, but would have to take a Mr Willetts: Perhaps this is the moment to engage significant step towards intervening in the internal that point. The hon. Gentleman has to offer evidence arrangements of the universities in question. That is that the arrangements are causing widespread confusion. where the position of the shadow Minister rather surprises We have seen no such evidence. All the material that is me, because my view is that intervening in such a way in available on the websites of the universities of Oxford the autonomous decisions of the universities of Oxford and Cambridge makes it absolutely clear that their and Cambridge would go contrary to what I thought MAs are not qualifications obtained by postgraduate was the shared view of both Front-Bench teams—the study. The QAA’s documents make clear the status of view that the autonomy of our universities was one of these qualifications, and we are not aware of the widespread the reasons for their success. confusion and misunderstanding that the hon. Gentleman The shadow Minister may have thought that it would claims to have identified. be easy to turn up and attack this apparently anomalous situation, but if he wishes the matter to go further he Chris Leslie: I am grateful to the Minister for giving has to explain why he would be so willing to interfere way; he has been extremely generous. On the evidence with the autonomy of the institutions that we are talking point, in 2000, the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher about, including autonomy over their academic awards, Education undertook an opinion poll survey of recruiters. which was most recently protected and laid out explicitly It reported that 62% of employers thought that MA in legislation that his party passed when in government Oxon. or MA Cantab. was a genuine, hard-earned in 2005. That protects universities’ powers to award post-graduate award. Surely that is sufficient evidence. their own qualifications. In many of my exchanges with the shadow Minister’s predecessors, they have gone out Mr Willetts: The hon. Gentleman has cited that of their way to say that they value the autonomy of our evidence in the past, but the evidence from 2000 predates institutions. Government Members believe that trying the work that I have described. It was because of that to intervene in well-established practices at Oxford point that the QAA engaged with the subject. It has and Cambridge would be an interference with their made explicit in its publications what the Oxford and independence that would undermine the Government’s Cambridge MAs are, and Oxford and Cambridge wider approach to their autonomy, and would be prospectuses and websites are now very explicit on that inconsistent with the principle of institutional autonomy point. He needs new evidence; he cannot simply rest on enshrined not just in the legislation that his Government evidence from 2000, given that so much more is now passed, but in section 63(3) of the Further and Higher done to be explicit about the unusual characteristics of Education Act 1992. these MAs. Chris Leslie: The Minister is very generous in giving The challenge set by that research in 2000 has been way. The whole point of a quality assurance agency is to addressed by Oxford and Cambridge, and it is hard to have some level of quality assurance across the university imagine that anyone who had done a minimal level of network. He would not allow universities to confer any research could be in any doubt about the nature of the old title—perhaps PhD or MP—on a smaller or unworthy MA from Oxford and Cambridge. It is not an academic qualification. There must be some quality assurance qualification; it replaces the BA as the holder of the BA across all higher education degrees. develops a longer relationship with those universities. The hon. Gentleman has to provide further information Mr Willetts: That is the role of the QAA. I will be than he has so far been able on the argument that there frank with the hon. Gentleman. This is where I have to is confusion for employers. reveal myself to the House as a Conservative. [HON. A related argument is that somehow the system MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I welcome the support from undermines the value and standing of MAs awarded by my hon. Friends. If Oxford and Cambridge came to us other universities. Is it therefore the case that the victims today and said, “We’ve got a smart idea. We wish are not employers, but people who have MAs from to invent MAs for Oxford and Cambridge that can other universities? I freely accept that those MAs are be secured with no further academic study and will be genuine academic qualifications for which further work different from the established conventions for creating is required after a BA has been secured. Again, I have to an MA,” the QAA would be wary of that approach. say to the hon. Gentleman that we do not have any However, those MAs have been around for hundreds of evidence. I have letters on a wide range of issues in years, and they are a well-established pattern. They are higher education, but in my 18 months as Minister well understood, and they are an established part of the responsible for these issues I have not had a single letter history of these institutions. that I can recall saying, “I got my MA from some other Autonomy comes partly from historical experience. British university and I find that it is not respected, The autonomy of those institutions is not simply a because people think that I got it only because I was result of the rational assessment of what they do today trying to elect the chancellor of the university, or the but, in the case of Oxford and Cambridge, it has partly professor of poetry.”The hon. Gentleman has a theoretical been secured by their history and traditions. Part of argument that is not borne out by the practical evidence respecting their autonomy is about respecting their on confusion for employers or for people who receive history and traditions. The MAs at Oxford and Cambridge 1247 21 OCTOBER 2011 Business without Debate 1248 go back to the mediaeval universities where, after a time FIRE SAFETY (PROTECTION OF TENANTS) securing a BA, people then secured an MA. Perhaps the BILL Opposition’s rootless rationalism means that they have Resumption of adjourned debate on Question no taste or love for those conventions and traditions (19 November), That the Bill be now read a Second that have developed over centuries, but we rather like time. ancient traditions. The hon. Gentleman has not established that they actively do any damage, because his argument Hon. Members: Object. about confusion is not supported by the evidence, so I see no reason for interfering with the autonomy of Debate to be resumed on Friday 20 January 2012. those institutions simply to remove an historical feature that they have enjoyed for centuries. I rather like the fact that we have centuries-old traditions. CONTAMINATED BLOOD (SUPPORT FOR Chris Leslie: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. INFECTED AND BEREAVED PERSONS ) BILL Will you confirm that, under the rules of the House, if [LORDS] the Minister is still speaking at 2.30 pm, the Bill will fall and will not complete its Second Reading? If he wants Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second to explore the issues in more detail in Committee, he time. must stop speaking before then. I want to clarify exactly what his intention is. Hon. Members: Object. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I think that the Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 25 November hon. Gentleman has been here long enough—indeed he 2011. is a former Minister—to know exactly how the rules work. At 2.30 pm, I shall ask on what day debate on the Bill is to be resumed. SALE OF TICKETS (SPORTING AND Mr Willetts: Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker, CULTURAL EVENTS) BILL for making clear what we all understand on both sides Resumption of adjourned debate on Question of the House. I have accepted many interventions from (21 January), That the Bill be now read a Second time. the hon. Member for Nottingham East, and perhaps if I had not done so I might have been able to get even further in my remarks, but I wanted to ensure that at Hon. Members: Object. least I engaged with the points that he made. Debate to be resumed on Friday 20 January 2012. He has enabled me to set out my beliefs as a Tory in protecting those institutions and traditions when they do not do anyone any damage. It is clearly the Oxford and Cambridge connection that excites Opposition KINSHIP CARERS (PARENTAL Members, and they have not focused on the fact that RESPONSIBILITY AGREEMENTS ) BILL MAs are a widespread feature of Scottish universities. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second We have heard very little about Scotland’s ancient time. universities. St Andrews, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, as Hon. Members: Object. well as Dundee and Heriot Watt, award a master of arts Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 20 January as a first degree as a consequence of their history. The 2012. proposal would have to be introduced on a consistent basis, applying also to Scotland, but some people would note that to attack an ancient tradition that is enjoyed by some universities in England, and at the same time to ignore a similar tradition that has developed in the HOUSE OF COMMONS DISQUALIFICATION ancient universities of Scotland, would be an example (AMENDMENT) BILL of the hon. Gentleman attacking the traditions of some Resumption of adjourned debate on Question English institutions but not showing a similar degree— (9 September), That the Bill be now read a Second time. 2.30 pm The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). Hon. Members: Object. Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday Debate to be resumed on Friday 25 November 2011. 20 January 2012. Business without Debate Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. When I moved the House COMMON FISHERIES POLICY of Commons Disqualification (Amendment) Bill, I believe (WITHDRAWAL) BILL it was objected to by someone who would be personally affected by the Bill. Was it in order for that person to Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second object? time. Hon. Members: Object. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): That is not a Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 25 November matter for the Chair. Any Member may object. That is 2011. up to them. 1249 21 OCTOBER 2011 1250

PETITION Concessionary Coach Travel Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Sentencing (Knife Crime) do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) 2.33 pm 2.36 pm Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I am grateful for this opportunity to present a petition from the residents Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): May I start by of Enfield. For too long the borough of Enfield has saying how grateful I am for the opportunity to raise witnessed the deaths of young people. Tragically, the concerns about the potential reduction in services and most recent was that of a young man with a very bright increase in fares that will result from the Government’s future, Steven Grisales, who in September became the decision to withdraw the coach concessionary travel victim of a fatal stabbing by teenagers. Youngsters get scheme? At the outset I would like to thank the into knife crime for a number of reasons. The signatories organisations, including Mencap, Age UK and National to the petition ask the Government to introduce Express, for the help and advice they have given on amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment preparing for the debate. I congratulate and thank my of Offenders Bill that will allow a mandatory custodial colleagues who have worked hard on this issue, including sentence for those under 18. my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), who tabled early-day motion The petition was raised through the efforts of many 2181 on the matter, my hon. Friend the Member for of my constituents and with the loyal support of the Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), who has led a Enfield Independent local newspaper. The petition states: formidable campaign against the cuts to the scheme as The Petition of residents of the London Borough of Enfield, Labour’s transport spokesperson, and the many Members, Declares that the creation of a new offence of using a knife to such as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West threaten or endanger a person is welcome, as is the proposal to (Rachel Reeves), who have campaigned hard on behalf introduce a mandatory six month custodial sentence for those of the many constituents who have written to say what a convicted of this offence; further declares that the new offence and sentence is only set to apply to those over 18 years of age, huge difference the scheme has made, enabling them to despite serious knife crimes being committed in this borough and stay active and see friends and family. I also commend elsewhere by people younger than 18. the Express & Star, Britain’s leading evening newspaper, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons for the great campaigning work it has undertaken to urges the Secretary of State for Justice to give urgent consideration highlight this important matter and fight for a fair deal to amendments to ensure that the new offence also applies to for pensioners and the disabled. under 18s. The House will know that the coach concessionary And the Petitioners remain, etc. travel scheme provides half-price coach travel for disabled [P000970] people and those aged over 60 in England and Wales. The bus service operators grant allows some operators of coaches and local buses in the UK, as well as community transport schemes, to reclaim some of their fuel costs. Excluding concessionary travel, it represents the main source of bus support currently funded by the Department for Transport. The provision of travel concessions on coaches does not come under the general concessionary fares legislation that applies to local bus routes. Instead, there is a non-statutory arrangement that enables long-distance coach operators to claim the grant for offering concessionary fares to all passengers aged over 60 and those who qualify as disabled. The concessionary fare is available on selected coach services to destinations within England and Wales, and to Edinburgh or Glasgow from England and Wales. It is calculated as up to 50% at off-peak times and up to 30% at peak times. Disabled passengers should always be offered a concessionary fare, but they may be asked for proof of eligibility. More than 11 million people are eligible for the concession and around 3 million concessionary journeys were made on coaches across England in 2009-10 alone. It was announced in the Government’s comprehensive spending review that the grant will be maintained at current levels until 2012 and then reduced in phases between 2012 and 2015. The cuts apply only in England, as the Welsh and Scottish Administrations have pledged to retain their provision of the scheme. The total reduction will be 20%, with savings amounting to approximately £17 million, forming part of the Government’s £254 million cuts to the bus service operators grant overall. As a result, the current non-statutory arrangement that enables 1251 Concessionary Coach Travel21 OCTOBER 2011 Concessionary Coach Travel 1252 long-distance coach operators to offer concessionary I should be very grateful if you would encourage the Department fares to older and disabled people will cease at the end for Transport to work with the coach industry to fully understand of this month. Pass holders will still be able to benefit and reduce the impact of the scheme’s removal or at least delay from the scheme, but they will have to book their the scheme’s withdrawal until the full impact on people like me is understood.” journeys before midnight on 31 October and travel on or before 31 August next year. Mike Nicholls from the Wolverhampton pensioners convention said: Let me turn to the impact of the reductions. The “Rail travel is already escalating out of our reach and now Department for Transport acknowledges that the funding coach travel will as well.” enables bus operators to provide more services and at lower fares than would otherwise be possible, and its One woman contacted me to explain how the concession own equality impact assessments show that the proposed enabled her to visit her granddaughter in Sussex and changes to the bus service operators grant could result great-granddaughter in London several times a year. in operators increasing fares and/or cancelling routes Now, those trips will cost her several hundreds of pounds deemed no longer financially viable due to declining more every year. users. The Department acknowledges also that cuts to Mencap has warned that the proposal will have the grant would adversely effect the equality of opportunity “a significant and disproportionate impact on people with a for, and discriminate directly or indirectly against, disabled learning disability. The introduction of a concessionary fare for the disabled and elderly people is recognition of the additional people. financial barriers individuals face... This could leave many people Despite that, the Department defends its decision, in the situation of choosing between stretching already tight claiming that disabled people will be “insulated” from budgets or not travelling at all. For many people with a learning fare rises, as they will still be entitled to local concessionary disability, this could be the only means of getting out and about fares, but the truth is that the cut to coach services to visit friends and family, go shopping or generally exercising comes on top of significant reductions in Government their own independence.” funding for local bus services, so many of those pensioners The charity says that the proposal will have a and disabled people with free bus passes will no longer “major impact on many aspects of disabled people’s lives” have a bus on which to use them in their local areas. because transport At the same time, coach operators face some of the “helps to achieve greater mobility and independence.” largest financial challenges that they have encountered “However,” it says, in years. The DFT is looking to coach operators to “most people with a learning disability do not drive and half of continue to offer the concessionary fares increase on a all families with a child with a disability do not own a car. This commercial basis, but fuel prices mean that many operators means that people with a learning disability are reliant on public are unlikely to be in a position to continue to offer transport. A lack of access to transport denies people with a concessionary coach fares at their current level once the learning disability the right to a basic level of independence, grant is reduced. choice and opportunity, which many others take for granted.” National Express, for example, the biggest long-distance Age UK says: coach provider benefiting from the grant, with at least “Making longer journeys is about to get more difficult for 30% of passengers receiving concessions on 18 routes, many older people. Removing the concession will mean higher prices and some people will think twice before travelling. People has drawn up plans to replace the scheme by introducing in later life that are at risk of facing loneliness and social isolation a £10 concession card that will enable passengers who will be further put off from leaving their home.” are more than 60 years old or disabled to qualify for one And look at the comments from their members. One third of the cost of coach travel, but they will not be lady wrote: able to use it to travel to or from an airport. That new scheme is obviously welcome, but the company itself “I travel a lot by National Express as with the concession it was affordable and as a widow I felt safer and more comfortable on points out that it will not match the terms of the the coach and don’t have to worry about my luggage...looks like Government-funded half-price concession, and, if a that will soon be coming to an end”. company such as National Express struggles to offer an Another said: equivalent concessionary scheme, it seems unlikely that “Bearing in mind that most of the National Express coaches smaller providers will be in a position to do anything that I get to go down to babysit in the school holidays are mostly like maintaining existing concessions, so passengers are full with concessions I can see buses running half empty or even bound to see increased fares and reduced services as a complete services being taken off. I think that this is a really bad result of the changes. decision and very short sighted. This is the tip of the iceberg and As I said earlier, more than 11 million people are if they get away with this we all know what will go next.” eligible for the concession, and about 3 million such We all know that the deficit has to be tackled and journeys were made in 2009-10. As the Express and Star savings have to be made, but all these organisations and showed, 1.2 million pensioners and disabled people in elderly and disabled people across the country are asking the west midlands, including 77,000 in my borough of the Prime Minister to honour the promise he made Dudley alone, will lose their half-price travel if the cut before the election when he said: goes ahead. But it is not the statistics that make the “Labour are trying to frighten old people by saying we’ll take impact of the cut clearest; the truth is that if pensioners away bus passes, or winter fuel payments. Well I can tell you we’re and disabled people lose their right to half-price travel, going to keep those things.” their ability to get out and about, visit family and Age UK, Mencap and coach operators across the country friends, go shopping or have a day out will be severely are all asking the Department to think again or at least restricted. to delay the plans. Age UK got it right when it said: Ken McClymont, a disabled constituent, told me: “There has been no public consultation on the change to coach “Taking a coach is usually the best value and most flexible concessions, which means disabled and older people have been means of public transport for me to use. Any changes to local excluded from the debate and decision-making process. The services or ticket prices will have an impact on my ability to travel. government should seriously consider delaying plans to cut the 1253 Concessionary Coach Travel21 OCTOBER 2011 Concessionary Coach Travel 1254

[Ian Austin] services that offer good value for money in vehicles that increasingly offer a very high-quality and excellent concession to allow enough time to consult properly with both environmental performance. However, taking a difficult concession pass holders and operators. With proper consideration decision to end the coach scheme has meant that we an alternative solution could be agreed.” have been able to protect higher priority programmes, Mencap is urging the Department for Transport to including the national bus concession. Even in these delay the proposed cuts and to consult coach operators times of austerity, the coalition Government have been and pass holders to determine a way forward that able to continue the national concessionary travel scheme protects the scheme. Mencap believes that a more desirable for local buses, despite all the scare stories that were solution could be reached by balancing the savings that circulated by our opponents during the election. This are required with mitigating steps to preserve concessions support for the national bus concession scheme is contained for people who rely on the scheme so that they can in the coalition agreement, and it was reconfirmed by remain independent and be able to make essential journeys. the Chancellor in the spending review. National Express is still asking whether the Government The local bus concessionary scheme benefits about would consider its offer to maintain the existing scheme 11.5 million people every year, allowing free off-peak at a lower rate of public subsidy. travel anywhere in England. In 2010-11, 1.6 million Even at this late stage, will the Minister agree to delay concessionary bus trips were made by pass holders in this cut and commit to proper discussions with organisations England—34% of total bus trips. This generous concession such as Mencap and Age UK and the elderly and provides older and disabled people with greater freedom disabled people they represent? Will she meet me, and independence and a lifeline to their community. It representatives of these organisations and operators enables pensioners and eligible disabled people to have such as National Express to discuss how these vital access to facilities within and outside their local area, services for some of the UK’s most vulnerable people and helps them to keep in touch with family and friends. can be saved? That is why it has been a priority, despite the deficit, to protect this concession. However, a deficit reduction 2.47 pm programme inevitably means making tough choices between The Minister of State, Department for Transport competing priorities. The Government believe that keeping (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I thank the hon. Member for the local lifeline provided by free local bus travel had to Dudley North (Ian Austin) for raising this issue in the be given priority over the coach concession scheme. House today and I congratulate him on securing this The hon. Gentleman complained about the lack of debate on concessionary coach travel, which is a very consultation. He will recognise that there was an urgent important issue. From 2003, the coach concession has need to provide a credible deficit reduction plan at a entitled the over-60s and eligible disabled people to very early stage of the coalition Government. If we had half-price travel on many long-distance coach services, not done that, we would be facing the kind of crisis that but the coalition has made it clear that our priority has has beset some of our European neighbours, who arguably to be reducing the budget deficit we inherited from the have less serious deficits than we do. The only reason we Government of whom the hon. Gentleman was a member. have achieved the stability that we have in relation to the In order to achieve this, several difficult decisions have deficit crisis is that we have produced a credible plan. had to be taken, including this one on concessionary That required prompt work, which meant that it was coach travel. not possible to carry out a consultation on this decision. The deficit crisis we inherited has inevitably meant However, an equalities impact screening assessment was that some funding streams have had to be ended. But carried out, and it was published on the Department for the consequences of failing to deal with the deficit Transport’s website in November 2010. My ministerial would be worse, including spiralling interest rates and colleague the hon. Member for Lewes recently wrote to the kind of crisis enveloping other European countries; the chairman of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory more and more taxpayers money being spent servicing Committee about the issue. When the funding for the debt; and a massive legacy of debt left for future generations. scheme formally comes to an end on 1 November, a full Given the scale of the crisis we inherited from Labour, it regulatory impact assessment will be published and simply was not possible to insulate concessionary travel copies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. completely from the measures needed to reduce the As with all decisions in the spending review, we have deficit. Funding for bus and coach travel had to take a sought ways to ease the process of implementation. share of the cuts that we have to make, and so the This is one of the reasons the Government gave participating decision was taken in the spending review to end the coach operators, and the public, 12 months’ notice of coach concession scheme from October this year. the scheme’s coming to an end. We recognised that a I recognise the concern this decision causes to those period of notice was very important to give operators who valued the coach concession and I welcome this sufficient time to plan for the removal of the grant and opportunity to respond to some of the points made by to give their customers reasonable notice of the changes Age UK and Mencap. We are listening carefully to what to concessions that we had unfortunately had to make. they have said, and I am sure that the Under-Secretary It is also important to note that coach operators are, of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes of course, free to continue to offer concessionary travel (Norman Baker), will be happy to meet them to discuss to older and eligible disabled people on a commercial this matter further. basis. Another advantage of allowing a period between I want to emphasise that our decision does not in any the announcement that the Government scheme was way reflect our wider view of the importance of coach coming to an end and this decision being implemented travel as a mode of transport. Coaches provide an was to give coach operators the time to develop new important choice on many inter-urban routes, with concessionary travel products. Indeed, the Government 1255 Concessionary Coach Travel21 OCTOBER 2011 Concessionary Coach Travel 1256 were pleased to learn this week that, as the hon. Gentleman In addition to the formula grant that goes to local said, National Express will be offering a replacement authorities to support bus services, the Government concessionary coach scheme from 1 November this have paid almost £47 million to local transport authorities year. I understand that it will give those aged 60 and and bus operators to purchase 542 low-carbon buses over and eligible disabled people a third off the price of across England. We are particularly keen to build the coach travel in England when they buy a concession card. capacity of community transport organisations and Although the concessionary coach travel scheme had have provided local transport authorities with £10 million to go, I emphasise that the Government are still working of extra funding to support that sector. That money hard to encourage more people to use buses. We fully was found from savings made at the Department for appreciate how important they are for a range of groups Transport in the coalition’s first year in office. Lastly, we in society. Bus services contribute to both of the have established a £560 million local sustainable transport Government’s key transport priorities: creating growth fund to support our transport goals of supporting and cutting carbon. By providing an attractive alternative growth and cutting carbon. Many of the successful bids to the car, we can not only cut carbon, but unclog the to that fund are providing improvements to local bus congestion that can choke our local economies and services and facilities. hinder jobs and growth. Throughout our decisions in In conclusion, this Government have had to take the spending review, we were determined that buses and difficult decisions to deal with the deficit that we inherited public transport should continue to receive their fair from Labour—a deficit as serious as anything that we share of funding, within the constraints of the deficit have seen in this country’s peacetime history. Ending that we unfortunately inherited from the previous the concessionary coach travel scheme is one of the Government. A range of programmes aimed at making many melancholy consequences of the economic bus travel more attractive is under way. Again, that is mismanagement of the previous Government, who despite the constraints on budgets. borrowed heavily during the boom years and left us in a The latest estimates show that in the last financial disastrously weak position when the lean years arrived. year, local and central government spent more than Although the coach scheme has gone, we have continued £2.5 billion on support for local bus services. That to protect free travel on local buses for older people and includes more than £1 billion on concessionary travel eligible disabled people, providing them with vital access and £420 million in bus service operators grant. Reductions to employment, health care and other essential local in that grant are to be implemented next year, but they services. are far less severe than many predicted and there is Question put and agreed to. reason to believe that the bus industry will absorb them without a major impact on local fares. It is true that reductions in local authority budgets are having an 2.59 pm impact on supported bus services in some areas, but by no means in all. House adjourned.

75WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS

The new pathway will enable the complex needs of Written Ministerial high-risk offenders to be addressed more effectively. Interventions and treatment will be provided earlier Statements and in the most suitable locations, additional support will be given to those who have completed programmes and ongoing supervision will be enhanced. These Friday 21 October 2011 plans strengthen public protection arrangements and improvements in psychological health outcomes through TREASURY new collaborative services across the national health service and national offender management service. Extraordinary ECOFIN (22 October 2011) “Response to Offender Personality Disorder Consultation” has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. An extraordinary meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Brussels on 22 October 2011. Finance Ministers will discuss preparation of the WORK AND PENSIONS 23 October European Council. The current draft European Council conclusions include Provider Work Programme Information Sessions language on: economic policy: growth; energy, research and innovation; investment; economic governance; the European semester; financial regulation; ratification of the European financial The Minister of State, Department for Work and stability facility; and external trade; Pensions (Chris Grayling): From 24 October 2011 preparation for the Cannes G20 summit; employment and support allowance claimants eligible climate change; and to volunteer for the Work programme will be referred to foreign policy. a Work programme information session. These claimants include those in the work-related activity group, with a ECOFIN is likely to focus its attention on the situation work capability assessment prognosis greater than six in the euro area. I will continue to emphasise the months. Other claimants eligible to volunteer for the importance of the euro area delivering a truly Work programme who are not subject to work-related comprehensive solution to the situation in the euro activity can opt to attend an information session, such area, which ring-fences vulnerable euro area countries, as those in the Support group. recapitalises Europe’s banks and resolves uncertainty about Greece, ahead of the G20 summit in Cannes on This change seeks to make claimants aware of the 3-4 November. opportunities on offer from Work programme providers. It also gives providers greater ability to reach individual claimants who may not be aware of the support they HEALTH can access, and helps providers to manage their resources more effectively. Response to Offender Personality Disorder Consultation We will introduce these information sessions on a phased basis, beginning on 24 October 2011 in the east The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul midlands (contract package area 2), with national coverage Burstow): I am publishing today a joint Department of by the end of November 2011. Health and Ministry of Justice response to the public We are not prescribing how the sessions should be consultation on an offender personality disorder pathway carried out but providers will have to give the Government implementation plan, which was completed on 17 May clear details about their marketing plans for information 2011. sessions (for example, timings, individual or group sessions, The consultation set out the Government’s plans to and group sizes.) reshape services, interventions and treatments for offenders Additionally, these information sessions will encourage with severe personality disorders. There were 91 responses partnership working between Jobcentre Plus and providers to the consultation almost all of which supported the at a local-level. proposed approach. We want claimants to engage with their provider on a The Government will now begin to take forward the voluntary basis. In exceptional circumstances, where a pathway approach, which will enable the complex needs claimant refuses to engage without good reason, the of high-risk offenders to be addressed more effectively. personal adviser can require them to attend an information We will start to decommission the dangerous and severe session. personality disorder (DSPD) pilot sites in the NHS, the first being the unit based in Broadmoor high secure When a claimant decides to volunteer for the Work psychiatric hospital. The patients currently being held programme, they will be participating in it for up to two in these facilities will continue to be treated in the level years, so providers have a real chance to address the of security necessary for the risk they present and no serious disadvantages some of our claimants face in the individual will be moved to a lower-level of security as a labour market. result of these changes. Professional judgments on an When claimants have attended their information session individual’s appropriate level of security will continue they will follow up with their Jobcentre Plus personal to be made as part of the normal assessment arrangements. adviser to agree next steps.

1155W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1156W

The low figure for 2009/10 was caused by maternity Written Answers to leave for a Grade 7, a Senior Executive Officer joining later in year with an existing budget provision, and an Questions Executive Officer on loan from another Government Department. These were one-off factors that did not carry over into the following financial year. Forecasts Friday 21 October 2011 for the same period were as follows:

£ ATTORNEY-GENERAL 2008/09 173,000 2009/10 158,000 Serious Fraud Office 2010/11 192,000

Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Attorney-General (1) Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for how much was spent by his Department on meeting Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on home to work travel costs for the Chief Executive of requiring his Department’s (a) agencies and non- the Serious Fraud Office in 2010-11; [74582] departmental public bodies and (b) contractors to (2) how much the Serious Fraud Office spent on have a written code of practice or protocol relating to meeting the travel to work costs of each of its the provision, conduct and quality assurance of employees in receipt of such costs in the latest period scientific evidence and advice. [72445] for which figures are available; [74585] (3) how many staff in the Serious Fraud Office have Mr Willetts: The information is as follows: the costs of travelling from home to work met by their (a) This Department is committed to handling science employer. [74586] and engineering advice in accordance with the Government Chief Scientific Adviser’s guidelines on the use of science The Solicitor-General: The travel costs for the chief and engineering advice in policy making. In addition executive for 2010-11 was £12,600. This was a benefit in the Government Office for Science have issued guidelines kind payment. These payments arise from her home on Scientific Analysis in Policy Making which sets out being out of London. the way in which all Government Departments should For the last financial year in which accounts were obtain and use scientific analysis and advice in policy submitted on behalf of the SFO, the amount spent on making. meeting the travel to work costs for those staff with an (b) This Department does not require contractors to approved entitlement for reimbursement was £57,880.50 have a written code of practice or protocol for such (this includes the chief executive). services. The Department would seek to procure such During the period for which the above figure is services via a competitive process. As part of that provided, nine staff are entitled to have the cost of process bidders’ proposals, including their ability to travel from home to work met by the SFO. provide, conduct and quality assure their work would Telephone Tapping: Metropolitan Police be fully evaluated to ensure the successful bid is fit for purpose. Mr Meacher: To ask the Attorney-General whether he has made representations to the Metropolitan police Higher Education: Admissions concerning their decision to invoke the Official Secrets Act in respect of the Guardian’s journalistic sources in Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the Milly Dowler telephone hacking case. [76286] Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what proportion of young people in each local authority The Attorney-General: No. area began a course at (a) a university, (b) a Russell Group university and (c) Oxford or Cambridge University in the latest year for which figures are BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS available. [73128] Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers Mr Willetts: The latest information on the numbers Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for of young (aged under 21 on entry) undergraduate entrants Business, Innovation and Skills what the resource from each local authority area in England who began a budget allocation was for the office of his course at a UK higher education institution, a Russell Department’s chief scientific adviser in each of the last Group university and Oxford or Cambridge university five years for which figures are available. [72442] are shown in the table which will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Figures for the 2010/11 academic Mr Willetts: The Chief Scientific Advisor’s office was year will become available from January 2012. Equivalent established in May 2008. The resource budget allocations figures for entrants studying higher education courses for the following three years were: in further education colleges are not available. The Department does not collect data on the number £ of residents in a particular local authority area who are 2008/09 200,000 not in higher education, which would be necessary to 2009/10 80,000 calculate a proportion. It is, therefore, not possible to 2010/11 176,500 calculate the proportion of young people in each local authority area who began a higher education course. 1157W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1158W

Higher Education: Disadvantaged The event also publicised a review of the NC3Rs research portfolio ‘Research Review 2011’ describing some of Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the science it has funded to find new ways of replacing Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what and reducing the use of animals in scientific procedures proportion of young people in each percentile of lower and improving animal welfare. The report and a list of layer super output areas according to income all projects funded by the NC3Rs can be accessed on deprivation affecting children indices began a course at their website: (a) a university, (b) a Russell Group university and http://www.nc3rs.org.uk (c) Oxford or Cambridge University in the latest year Awards granted in 2011 can be viewed at: for which figures are available. [73127] http://www.nc3rs.org.uk/news.asp?id=1558 Mr Willetts: The information requested is not held centrally. Skills and Jobs Retention Group The following publications on participation in higher education may be helpful. Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Business, Innovation and Skills who the members are “Performance Indicators in Higher Education” include of the Skills and Jobs Retention Group; how many the proportion of entrants who are from state schools, times it has met since it was established; what its budget lower socio-economic classes or low participation is; and how many people it has assisted in finding new neighbourhoods. employment. [76163] http://www.hesa.ac.uk/ index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2072<emid=141 Mr Prisk: The Skills and Jobs Retention Group has The Higher Education Funding Council for England met formally 10 times. In addition, there has been (HEFCE) report “Trends in young participation in regular discussion between group members, other higher education: core results for England”, January individuals, business and organisations to progress work. 2010 tracks proportions of young people from different The group itself has no budget although it worked backgrounds entering Higher Education: closely with SEMTA to ensure that they secured £450,000 http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2010/10_03/ funding from the UK Commission for Employment The BIS publication “Widening Participation in Higher and Skills (UKCES) Employer Investment Fund for the Education: Analysis of progression rates for young system design and implementation of the new national people in England by free school meal receipt and web-based exchange—the Talent Retention Solution school type”, August 2011, includes estimated information (TRS). on young people by free school meal status progressing This allowed the TRS to be launched in July. This is a to higher education at national and local authority solution designed by business for business. No assessment level: has yet been made of precisely how many people have http://www.bis.gov.uk/analysis/statistics/higher-education/ been assisted by the TRS so far. However, good progress official-statistics-releases/widening-participation-in-higher- is being made with more than 150 companies registered education/analysis-of-progression-rates-for-young-people-in- on the website and, based on our discussions with them, england-by-free-school-meal-receipt we expect significant vacancies to come onto the system in the months ahead. National Centre for Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research The membership of the group is as follows:

Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Member Business, Innovation and Skills what projects have been Chair: Allan Cook Chairman of Atkins and SEMTA carried out by the National Centre for Replacement, Mark Barclay Senior Vice President and Head of Centre of Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research on Excellence—Airbus behalf of the Government since May 2010. [74270] Humphrey Chief Executive Officer Nuclear New Cadoux-Hudson Build—EDF Energy Mr Willetts: The National Centre for Replacement, Graham Chisnall Managing Director Commercial Aerospace Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research and Operations—ADS (NC3Rs) does not undertake individual projects on James Fothergill Head of Education and Skills—CBI behalf of the Government. Frank Hayden Group Manufacturing Director—Rolls- The NC3Rs is an independent organisation which Royce works with the scientific community to discover and Colin Lawther Vice President Europe Production promote new ways to replace, reduce and refine the use Engineering—Nissan of animals. The centre was recently tasked to lead in the Dick Martin Chairman—Kembrey Wiring Systems Limited delivery of the Government’s pledge to work to reduce John Whelan Human Resources Director Programmes and animal use in scientific research. The NC3Rs strategy Support—BAE Systems and work plan is approved by its independent board. Juergen Maier Managing Director UK Industry Sector— I recently attended the launch of the NC3Rs CRACK Siemens IT initiative, the aim of which is to develop new technologies Susanna Mason Director General Corporate Commercial— for industry with 3Rs benefits by connecting and funding Ministry of Defence scientists from academia and industry. More information Janice Munday Director of Advanced Manufacturing and can be found on the CRACK IT website: Services—Department for Business Innovation and Skills www.crackit.org.uk 1159W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1160W

Andrew Stunell [holding answer 20 October 2011]: Member We will ensure that the changes to Right to Buy policy Ian Waddell National Officer Aerospace and work alongside the devolved system of council housing Shipbuilding—Unite the Union finance. We will set out our proposals for doing this in due course. Students: Finance Housing: Older People Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what information his Rory Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Department holds on the number of students who Communities and Local Government what steps he is interrupted their studies due to illness in each of the taking to enable older people living in rural areas to last five years, but returned to study in the following remain in their own homes as they grow older. [75661] academic year. [73686] Andrew Stunell: Our programme for Government Mr Willetts: Information on students interrupting included a commitment to support older people to live their studies due to illness and returning the following independently at home. To support that commitment academic year is not held centrally Government have protected funding for Disabled Facilities Grant which delivers adaptations that enable disabled people to live comfortably and independently in their homes. By the end of the spending review period the CABINET OFFICE national Disabled Facilities Grant budget will increase from £169 million in 2010-11 to £185 million in 2014-15. Childbirth We are investing £1.5 million in the FirstStop information and advice service which aims to help older people Mr Evennett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet make informed decisions about their housing, care and Office how many children were born at (a) Queen support options and to help them maintain independent Elizabeth Hospital, Woolwich, (b) Darent Valley living in later life. The Government have also provided Hospital, Dartford and (c) Princess Royal Hospital, £51 million funding for Handypersons schemes over the Farnborough in each of the last five years. [76354] spending review period to deliver small home repairs and adaptations. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Housing: Prices asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2011: Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Communities and Local Government what estimate he have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking has made of the average price of houses in (a) Ashfield how many children were born at (a) Queen Elizabeth Hospital, constituency, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) England in Woolwich, (b) Darent Valley Hospital, Dartford and (c) Princess the latest period for which figures are available. [75403] Royal Hospital, Farnborough in each of the last five years (76354). Figures for live births by hospital have been compiled from Andrew Stunell: Information at constituency level birth registration data. Information on place of birth is provided by the informant at registration rather than by the hospitals could be provided only a disproportionate cost. The themselves. Ashfield constituency is made up of specific settlements from the districts of Ashfield and Broxtowe. Live births occurring in selected hospitals, 2006 to 2010 Communal establishment 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Estimates of the simple average house prices (based on Land Registry data), for 2011, quarter 2, are provided Queen Elizabeth 3,953 4,206 4,036 4,000 4,176 in the following table: Hospital, Woolwich Darent Valley Hospital, 2,881 3,209 3,147 3,529 3,828 £ Dartford Princess Royal Hospital, 3,562 3,631 3,667 3,777 3,855 Ashfield 124,817 Farnborough Common, Broxtowe 151,543 Orpington Nottinghamshire 155,594 England 231,803 House prices by local authority are published on the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT DCLG website in Statistics Live Table 581: http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/table- Housing Revenue Accounts 581.xls

Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance: North Yorkshire Communities and Local Government what assumption on the proportion of council housing stock which will Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for be sold in future years he plans to use to calculate the Communities and Local Government what estimate he adjustment of housing revenue account debt has made of the effect that reductions in central settlements to reflect changes in future income Government funding to local authorities will have on following changes to discounts on right-to-buy sales. unemployment in the boroughs of (a) Middlesbrough [75878] and (b) Redcar and Cleveland. [75202] 1161W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1162W

Robert Neill: No estimate has been made of the effect Cultural Heritage that reductions in central Government funding to local authorities will have on unemployment in the boroughs of (a) Middlesbrough and (b) Redcar and Cleveland. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what museums, galleries The coalition Government’s deficit reduction plan is and places of heritage he has visited in each region in necessary to secure economic stability and put Britain’s the last 12 months. [75784] public services and welfare system on a sustainable long-term footing. Under the last Administration, the UK’s economy became unbalanced, and relied on Mr Vaizey: Since October 2010, the Secretary of unsustainable public spending and rising levels of public State has visited the following museums, galleries and debt. places of heritage:

For economic growth and job creation to be sustainable, Date Venue Region we need a broad-based economy supporting private sector jobs, exports, investment and enterprise. In this 8 December 2010 Banqueting House London context, it is my assessment that the savings we are 11 January 2011 British Museum London making to central Government spending will reduce 7 February 2011 Windsor Castle South east long-term unemployment. 25 February 2011 Farnham Museum South east 22 March 2011 Geffrye Museum London 1 April 2011 Royal Armouries London 16 May 2011 Heywood Gallery London CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT 19 May 2011 White Cube Gallery London 31 May 2011 Lisson Gallery London Bookmakers 15 June 2011 Tate Britain London 24 June 2011 British Library London Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for 9 July 2011 Iron Bridge Museum West Midlands Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent 12 July 2011 National Maritime Museum London assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the 26 August 2011 Holburne Museum South west protection afforded by offshore bookmakers to their 20 September 2011 Whitechapel Gallery London customers in the UK. [76254] 18 October 2011 Chatham Historic Dockyard South east 19 October 2011 Buckingham Palace London John Penrose: In 2009, this Department reviewed remote gambling regulation in Britain, and found it was not working as well as had been intended. Following a Departmental Allowances public consultation on 14 July 2011, I announced to Parliament proposals for reforming our regulation. This will mean consistent protection for British consumers Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for as all overseas operators will be subject to the same Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much regulatory standards and requirements as British-based members of his departmental management board have operators, for example in relation to problem gambling, claimed in expenses since May 2010. [74954] preventing underage play and reporting suspicious betting patterns. John Penrose: The total amount that members of this Department’s management board, excluding Ministers, Creative Partnership Active have claimed in relation to expenses incurred while carrying out their departmental duties since May 2010 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, up to the end of September 2011 is £2,822.16. Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what the name is of each Creative Partnership active in each region in 2011-12; [75782] Departmental Meetings (2) how many Creative Partnership projects he expects to arise from Government funding of the Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Creativity, Culture and Education charity in (a) Olympics, Media and Sport how many meetings he has 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15; had with the Secretary of State for Education to and how many pupils he expects to participate in such discuss accessibility for all age groups to the creative projects in each such year. [75962] industries; and whether any action plan from such meetings was produced. [75744] Mr Vaizey: The names of the current area delivery organisations can be found online at: Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Education and http://www.creative-partnerships.com/in-your-area/ the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Arts Council England will cease funding Creativity, Sport have not had any meetings to discuss accessibility Culture and Education, who deliver Creative Partnerships, for all age groups to the creative industries. Discussions at the end of this financial year and will instead support between our two Departments have primarily focused a new network of bridge organisations from 2012-13. on the independent review of cultural education that we In 2011-12 Creativity, Culture and Education will jointly commissioned Darren Henley to produce by the report to Arts Council England on the number of end of the year. It will consider how we ensure that schools involved in Creative Partnerships, but not how every child has access to a wide variety of high quality many individual projects or students. cultural experiences. 1163W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1164W

Film bookmaking arrangements from 1 September 2012 will be reached with every racecourse and racecourse group Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2011; and if he will make a statement. [76027] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what support his Department is giving to the 55th London Film John Penrose: My officials are in close and regular Festival. [75835] contact with the Federation of Racecourse Bookmakers Ltd (FRB) and the Racecourse Association (RCA) over Mr Vaizey: The British Film Institute is contributing the discussions on racecourse pitch tenures. I receive £1.7 million to the 55th London Film Festival running regular updates on the discussions between the two 12 to 27 October 2011. This is part of the grant in aid groups and, while progress is slow, it is being made. We funding from the Department this year. understand that the contracts for Northern Racing and Arena Leisure are either agreed or very close to agreement Government Art Collection and that some of the independent courses have begun discussions. All parties are working towards all contracts being agreed by the end of this year and I will be Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for keeping a close watch on progress. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department has spent on the (a) framing and (b) hanging of art from the Government Art Collection Museums and Galleries since May 2010. [75352] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: Since May 2010 the Government Art Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many Collection has spent £203,806 on framing and £13,136 museums he has visited in the last 12 months on official on hanging works of art. Works of art are displayed in business. [75845] major British Government buildings, including Ministers’ offices, embassies and ambassadors’ residences, to promote Mr Vaizey: In the last 12 months, the Secretary of British art and contribute to cultural diplomacy. State has visited eight museums on official business.

Government Procurement Card Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much was Chris Kelly: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, available from EU funds for museums in the UK in the Olympics, Media and Sport how much was withdrawn latest period for which figures are available. [75846] on each occasion one of his Department’s officials used a Government Procurement Card at an Mr Vaizey: This Department does not hold information automated teller machine from 2006-07 to 2009-10; about the level of EU funding allocated to its sponsored and what the date of each such withdrawal was. [76085] museums or to other museums in the UK. Any funding allocated by the EU is a matter for the individual John Penrose: The following table details the amounts museums and the EU funding agencies. withdrawn by officials using a Government Procurement Card at automated teller machines from 2006-07 to Ofcom: Press Complaints Commission 2009-10. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Date Amount (£) Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether (a) 2007 Ofcom and (b) the Press Complaints Commission are 23 April 50.00 defined as public authorities for the purposes of the 20 April 100.00 Freedom of Information Act 2000. [75856] 27 April 50.00 21 June 20.00 Mr Vaizey: Ofcom is defined as a public authority for 19 September 100.00 the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, 24 September 100.00 but the Press Complaints Commission is not. 3 October 190.00 Public Libraries 2008 2 August 100.00 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 10 October 123.21 Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what plans he has to encourage local authorities to (a) improve library services and (b) offer (i) seven-day opening, (ii) 2009 outreach programmes and (iii) other library services; 7 June 355.68 [75960] (2) what plans he has for (a) continued provision of Horse Racing: Bookmakers and (b) improvements to library services in the digital age. [75961] Mr Sutcliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Mr Vaizey: Arts Council England has responsibility he has made of the likelihood that agreements between for library development in the digital age. With the bookmakers and racecourses concerning on-course Local Government Group they will deliver a second 1165W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1166W libraries development programme to identify and support Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 18 October a number of authorities to implement the ideas and best 2011]: I have had no discussions with Sir Jock Stirrup practice that came from the Future Libraries programme. regarding Mr Adam Werritty since my appointment.

Television: Violence Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what vehicle is capable of firing the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what recent Exactor missile; [75244] discussions he has had on the effects of television violence on schoolchildren; and whether he has taken (2) whether his Department has acquired M133 steps in respect of this issue; [75933] armoured personnel carriers under urgent operational (2) if he will estimate the number of (a) fictional requirements for operations in Afghanistan. [75246] murders and (b) fictional acts of violence a British child will view on television in the course of their Peter Luff: The UK has a range of systems deployed childhood; and if he will assess the potential effect of in Afghanistan to support coalition forces and protect such viewing on their psychological, emotional, civilians. However, I am withholding further details on educational and social development; and what recent individual capabilities as their disclosure would, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or representations he has received on this issue; [75936] security of the armed forces. (3) if his Department will (a) develop and (b) implement guidelines on the maximum number of Armed Forces: Uniforms hours of television viewing recommended for children. [75943] Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Defence by what date his Department estimates that all Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for armed forces personnel, including cadets and reservists, South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has had no recent will have been issued with the multi-terrain pattern discussions. uniform. [75967] Parliament has charged the independent broadcasting [holding answer 20 October 2011]: regulator, Ofcom, with maintaining standards to protect Peter Luff On children from harmful material. It sets out the rules and current plans, all armed forces personnel who require guidance with which broadcasters must comply. Ofcom’s combat clothing, including reservists, are to be issued broadcasting code therefore contains specific requirements with the new multi-terrain pattern uniform by the end to protect people under 18, including strict rules on the of 2013. portrayal of violence in television programmes. The issue to cadets of the multi-terrain pattern uniform Ofcom’s rules are required to be robust and based on is a decision for each of the services. Army Cadets have the best evidence and it regularly conducts research in been included within the last tranche of the Army this area. If there was new evidence which clearly showed roll-out programme and it is intended to issue Royal existing levels of TV violence as a major problem in the Marine Cadets with the new uniforms as soon as is UK then Ofcom would need to consider this fully and practicable after the naval core roll-out programme is act accordingly. complete. At this time there are no plans to issue the new uniform to Air Cadets. Within this framework, it is the broadcasters’ job to make judgments about what individual programmes Defence Business Services National Security Vetting should contain and the time at which they are broadcast. The Government have no plans to introduce guidelines John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for on the maximum number of hours of television viewing Defence pursuant to the written ministerial statement recommended for children. of 11 October 2011, Official Report, columns 17-18WS, on Defence Vetting Agency: removal of agency status, what consultation his Department carried out prior to DEFENCE the decision to remove agency status from the Defence Vetting Agency. [75259] Adam Werritty Mr Robathan: Formal consultation with the trade Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for unions on the creation of the Defence Business Services Defence what advice his Department’s Permanent (DBS) organisation commenced in March 2011. This Secretary has provided to him on his links with Mr consultation referred to the intent to consider the inclusion Adam Werritty. [75481] of the Defence Vetting Agency (DVA) within the DBS; with the consequent removal of its agency status. Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 18 October 2011]: Since my arrival, the Department’s permanent The Ministry of Defence Civil Service Unions (MCSU) secretary has discussed the Ministerial Code with me. I were informed on 1 September 2011 of the proposal to do not have any links with Mr Adam Werritty. move the DVA into the DBS organisation during the autumn of 2011. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for The MCSU acknowledged in a letter dated 14 September Defence whether he has had discussions with the 2011 that they were content to accept the proposal. former Chief of the Defence Staff, Sir Jock Stirrup on Consultation with the local trade unions is being taken Mr Adam Werritty since his appointment. [75500] forward through the DBS non-industrial trade unions. 1167W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1168W

On 22 September 2011, I informed the Minister for procedure. Unless a corporate framework agreement the Cabinet Office and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has been used, contract awards are again advertised in the decision to remove agency status from the DVA, on these two publications as appropriate. its transfer into the DBS organisation. All invitation to tender and contract award documents Defence Equipment above £10,000 in value are placed on the transparency website unless a framework agreement pre-dating January 2011 has been used. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on how many occasions in 2010-11 were It is worth noting also that since July 2010, the consignments in response to requests for military kit Cabinet Office has imposed a pan-Government freeze despatched by special courier. [75761] on external consultancy expenditure to the effect that all intended expenditure below £20,000 has to be approved Peter Luff: An enabling arrangement is in place with at Director (1 star) level and above £20,000 with less City Spirit for the delivery of urgently required equipment than nine months duration approved at ministerial level. such as aircraft components and medical stores anywhere All consultancy requirements valued above £20,000 and in north-west Europe. In 2010-11, 13,995 deliveries within an intended duration longer than nine months were tasked under this arrangement. These predominantly have to be approved by the Efficiency Reform Group. related to ongoing operations. Prior to any engagement or contract being placed, Departments have to ensure that the requirement is Departmental Consultants necessary and that no internal resource is available to undertake the work. All external consultancy contracts David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for are reviewed on this basis every three months with the Defence what procedures his Department uses when maximum term permitted being nine months whereupon engaging external consultants. [73099] Efficiency Reform Group approval is required. In addition, any proposal from an external consultant Peter Luff: Ministry of Defence guidance mandates quoting average man day rates above a certain threshold that all external consultancy requirements be articulated requires approval from Efficiency Reform Group. in the form of a business case, with financial approval provided at the appropriate level. This business case Departmental Public Expenditure must consider all potential options, including internal resources, and make clear the rationale for recommending the external option to provide the service required. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on museums and The requirement is categorised by the top level budget exhibitions (a) overall and (b) in each constituent part holder into one of eleven categories so that the expenditure of the UK in each year since 2005. [74724] is appropriated correctly.The requirement is then procured by way of a competitive tendering exercise if practicable, Mr Robathan: Funding for museums, provided through either through an existing corporate framework agreement grants in aid, are provided in the following table in each or on a bespoke basis by advertising for expressions of of the last five years for which figures are currently interest prior to an invitation to tender being issued, in available. A grant in aid is typically used to fund part or the Defence Contracts Bulletin if above £10,000 in all of the administration costs of the recipient body. value, and in the Official Journal of the European Union if above £101,000 in value, under the restricted Since 2008 the Ministry of Defence (MOD) has not procedure. In the event of a competitive tendering collected estimates of regional expenditure on equipment, exercise being impracticable, the requirement is advertised non-equipment, or personnel costs as they do not directly on a single tender procurement basis in advance of the support policy making or operations. However, all of contract being placed, in the Defence Contracts Bulletin, the museums listed are based in England. if above £40,000 in value, and in the Official Journal of In addition, the MOD provides some £4 million each the European Union if above £101,000 in value, by way year to support to the regimental museums, across the of a voluntary transparency notice, under the negotiated UK.

£ Grant-in-Aid 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

RAF Museum 7,104,192 6,774,110 7,019,000 7,989,309 7,367,000 7,552,000 National Army Museum 4,871,546 5,292,879 5,489,000 5,734,850 5,515,222 6,312,403 National Museum of the Royal ————3,237,466 2,797,046 Navy Fleet Air Arm Museum 579.063 593,724 614,000 631,000 1— 1— Royal Marine Museum 783,252 740,788 765,480 783,000 1— 1— Royal Navy Museum 1,025,044 895,502 873,000 1,045,000 1— 1— Royal Navy Submarine Museum 548,317 561,997 575,708 591,000 1— 1— 1 Funded through the National Museum of the Royal Navy.

Ex-servicemen: Mental Health Services of State for Health on provision of facilities for retired service personnel diagnosed with mental health Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence disorders. [75089] what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary 1169W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1170W

Mr Robathan: All members of the Government place Tim Loughton: The Department does not collect the great importance on mental health issues, and Defence data requested. Ministers have had several discussions on the subject Local authorities must assess the needs of adopted with colleagues in the Health Departments and others children and their families for adoption support services, across Government, as well as with the community and including financial support. In determining the amount voluntary sector. of financial support to be paid to an adoptive parent, We are also working together on the implementation the local authority must take account of any other of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire grant, benefit, allowance or resource which is available (Dr Murrison)’s ‘Fighting Fit’ report on mental health to the adoptive parent in respect of his needs as a result services for both serving and ex-serving personnel. of the adoption of the child. On 12 October 2011 the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford Departmental Allowances (Mr Burns), and I met Dr Clifford Stanley, the US Department of Defense Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, as part of the US/UK Service Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Personnel and Veterans Task Force, which aims to Education how much members of his departmental deliver the best possible support for serving members of management board have claimed in expenses since May the armed forces and veterans. 2010. [74952] NATO Tim Loughton: Information on the department’s board Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for is available on the Transparency pages of the Department’s Defence what views were expressed by NATO defence website: ministers on the conclusions of the NATO defence http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ capabilities review at their meeting on 5 and 6 October departmentalinformation/transparency/b0067381/senior- 2011; if he will place in the Library information on the civil-servant-expenses-and-hospitality conclusions of that review; and if he will make a Similar information for Ministers is also published statement. [74843] on the same site: http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ Mr Gerald Howarth: At their meeting on 5 October departmentalinformation/transparency/a0065263/ministers- 2011, NATO Defence Ministers endorsed the NATO quarterly-returns Defence Planning Capability Report 2010-11 which acknowledged that NATO relies on a few nations, Departmental Consultants particularly the United States, for provision of costly and advanced capabilities. The report included recommendations to focus on addressing identified Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for capability shortfalls and deficiencies; emphasise Education how many unpaid advisers his Department multinational procurement cooperation in the delivering retains; what their names are; and which (a) bodies, of capabilities where appropriate and to work to improve (b) committees and (c) strategy groups of his NATO’s standardisation process. These recommendations Department each (i) is a member of, (ii) advises and will feed into the current NATO Defence planning cycle. (iii) works alongside. [73375] The report is classified NATO Restricted, including the report’s conclusions, and therefore it is not possible Tim Loughton: The information for the Department to place it in the Library of the House, nor in the public is set out as follows: domain. Nuclear Weapons: Testing Name Activity Sarah Thane Child Performance Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what the purpose was of the 1993 Memorandum of Agreement between the UK and Stephen Furner UK Council for Child Internet Safety Australia in relation to Maralinga; [75279] (2) for what reasons his Department provided £20 million to the Australian Government in 1993 in Adele Eastman Voluntary and Community Services prospectus grants respect of atomic tests in that country. [75563] Tom Jackson Mr Robathan: The purpose of the 1993 agreement John Nash between the UK and Australia was to agree a £20 million ex gratia payment to the Australians towards the cost of David Norgrove (Chair) Family Justice Review rehabilitating the test sites in Australia. Shireen Ritchie

EDUCATION Sally Coates (Principal, Review of Teachers’ Standards Burlington Danes Academy, Adoption Allowances Hammersmith) Roy Blatchford (Director of the Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for National Education Trust) Education what proportion of local authorities include Joan Deslandes (Headteacher of a child’s disability living allowance in the calculation of Kingsford Community School, the means test for adoption allowance. [75762] Newham, London) 1171W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1172W

Name Activity Name Activity

Judith Fenn (Head of School Sir Michael Wilshaw (Head of Services at the Independent Mossbourne Community Schools Council) Academy, Hackney and John McIntosh OBE (Former Director of Education at ARK) Headteacher of the London Oratory School) Darren Henley (Managing Cultural Review Dr Dan Moynihan (Chief Director of Classic FM)2 Executive of Harris Academies) 1 In recognition of Ofsted’s status, Mr Leeson is included as an Professor Anthony O’Hear observer for this review and committee. (Professor of Philosophy and 2 This is joint review led by the Department for Culture, Media and former Head of Education Sport. Department, Buckingham University) Departmental Location Leanne Simmonds (Subject Leader of Modern Foreign Languages, Evelyn Grace Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Academy, London) how many civil servants in his Department have been Patricia Sowter CBE (Principal (a) relocated and (b) agreed for relocation in the last of Cuckoo Hall Academy, 12 months; and to which areas of the United London) Kingdom. [74903] Ava Sturridge-Packer CBE (Headteacher of St Mary’s C of E Primary School, Birmingham) Tim Loughton: The Department has not relocated Greg Wallace (Executive any civil servants in the last 12 months. Principal of the Best Start Federation, Hackney) Departmental Manpower Brett Wigdortz (Chief Executive of Teach First) Lizzie Williams (Lead Teacher Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for at King Solomon Academy, Education how many (a) special advisers, (b) London) speechwriters and (c) press officers are in paid Patrick Leeson1 (Director of Development, Education and employment at his Department; what their names are; Care, Ofsted) and how much his Department has spent on (i) special Diane Rochford (Head Teacher, advisers, (ii) speechwriters and (iii) press officers in the John F Kennedy Special School) last 12 months for which figures are available. [72314]

Shahed Ahmed (Head of National Curriculum Review Tim Loughton: There are two special advisers, three Elmhurst Primary School, Advisory Committee members speechwriters and 15 press officers currently employed Forest Gate) by the Department for Education. It is not the Department’s Peter Barnes (Head of policy to name individual civil servants, however, the Oakgrove School, Milton names of the special advisers are on record as Dominic Keynes) Cummings and Henry de Zoete. Dame Yasmin Bevan (Executive Principal and Head of Denbigh In the financial year 2010/11 the Department spent High School and Challney High £771,039 on employing press officers and £219,534 on School for Boys, Luton) employing speechwriters. Details of pay bands for special Mike Harris (Head of advisers were published in a written ministerial statement Education and Skills Policy at by the Prime Minister on 19 July 2011, Official Report, the Institute of Directors) columns 110-13WS, and can be viewed at Patrick Leeson1 (Director of Development, Education and http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special- Care, Ofsted) adviser-data-releases John D F Martin (Head of Since publication Dominic Cummings is now in pay Castle Hill Junior School, band 2 with a salary of £69,266 per annum. Basingstoke) Bernice McCabe (Head of North London Collegiate) Departmental Pay John McIntosh OBE (Retired Head of The London Oratory Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Education School) if he will estimate the total monetary value of London Ruth Miskin (Founder, Read Write Inc and former Primary weightings and London living allowances for staff in Head) his Department. [74904] Joe Prendergast (Head of Wennington Hall School, Tim Loughton: In the Department, the 1,336 London Lancaster) Heather Rockhold (Retired Head of Lauriston based staff employed at grade 6 level and below are Primary School, Hackney) paid on average £3,700 more per head than staff employed Professor Nigel Thrift (Vice- elsewhere. The 114 senior civil servants employed in the Chancellor, University of Department do not receive any London weighting or Warwick) allowances. 1173W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1174W

Departmental Procurement Mr Gibb: In discharging his duty under the Academies Act 2010, the Secretary of State for Education, my right Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Education what estimate he has made of the cost of Gove), will decide whether to establish a free school or employing civil servants to undertake procurement for an academy. As part of that decision making process, his Department in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) local authorities have a key strategic role to play as a 2010-11; and what estimate he has made of the cost of champion for children and families. We have already (i) employing civil servants and (ii) engaging seen good examples of local authorities supporting consultants to undertake procurement for his parents and communities who want to set up free schools Department in 2011-12. [73195] and who promote academies in order to improve standards. As part of the local authorities’ role in supporting the Tim Loughton: The costs for employing civil servants establishment of new schools, the Education Bill currently in the Commercial Group for the Department for Education before Parliament proposes that where a local authority to undertake procurement in 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-11 considers there is a need for a new school; it must first and the estimated costs for 2011-12 are shown in the seek proposals to establish an academy or free school. following table. The current guidance issued to local authorities, schools To date we have had no contracts and no spend with and decision makers is extant and when, subject to consultants working specifically on procurement in the parliamentary approval, the Bill is enacted we will Department. We don’t anticipate any spend in this review and revise the guidance as appropriate. financial year. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Costs for employing civil servants to undertake procurement Government, the right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), has recently set out how local £ million authority planning departments should deal with proposals 2008-09 13.3 for state-funded schools, including free schools. In particular 2009-10 15.3 that they should make full use of their planning powers 2010-11 10.4 to support free school applications. 2011-121 2.4 1 Estimated Schools: Dogs Departmental Sick Leave Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what his policy is on headteachers and Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for teachers bringing dogs into school premises. [75035] Education for how many days on average his Department’s staff in each pay grade were absent from work as a result of ill health in 2010-11. [75012] Mr Gibb: The Department for Education has no central policy on head teachers and teachers bringing Tim Loughton: There were 15,086 days of absence dogs into school premises. In any circumstances where and an average of 6.0 working days lost (AWDL) in the dogs are brought into the premises, we would expect 12 month reporting period, ending 31 March 2011. schools to take common sense steps to ensure that the Sickness absence data for the Department for Education health and safety of those in the school is adequately is available on its website: protected. For instance ensuring that dogs are controlled and any fouling is cleared by the owners or handlers. http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ departmentalinformation/transparency/a00448/sickness-absence Schools: Vocational Guidance Departmental Training Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the number of Education how many external training courses staff of instances in which non-compliance by local authorities his Department attended in the last 12 months; and with the duty to provide careers guidance have not what the cost to the public purse was of each course. resulted in legal action. [73927] [74340] Tim Loughton [holding answer 13 October 2011]: Tim Loughton: Information about how many external Local authorities do not have a statutory duty to provide training courses were attended by the Department’s careers guidance. They have a duty, under section 68 of staff and the associated cost is not held centrally. Funding the Education and Skills Act 2008, to make available for the majority of learning and development opportunities services which encourage, enable or assist effective is held and managed by individual business areas. participation of young people in education or training. Consequently this information could be provided only Local authorities may choose to fulfil this duty through at disproportionate cost. the provision of careers guidance services. The Department for Education does not hold Free Schools: Academies information on whether or not non-compliance with this duty has resulted in legal action. Any legal action Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for would be brought against local authorities. No estimate Education what guidance he plans to provide to local can be given, therefore, of the number of instances in authorities to ensure they do not restrict the formation which non-compliance has or has not resulted in legal of free schools and academies. [69451] action. 1175W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1176W

Secondary Education: Admissions providing help early. Professionals working in universal services—health, education, police and early years—have Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for a vital role in identifying the early signs of abuse and Education what assessment (a) his Department and neglect and working together to make an early help (b) the Young People’s Learning Agency has made of offer to children, young people and families. the (i) enrolment and (ii) retention of 16 year olds in In the Government response we agreed to consider full-time education in the 2011-12 academic year. whether placing a statutory duty on local authorities [74695] and their partners was the most appropriate route to secure an increase in the range and number of preventative Tim Loughton: Information on 16-year-olds in full-time services on offer to children and families. Discussions education for the 2011/12 academic year is not yet are under way with local government and the wider available. sector, including health professionals, and are taking Special Educational Needs account of health reforms, to consider the best route to creating local systems where there is shared accountability Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for and effective co-ordination of early help services. An Education whether he has plans to include the number announcement will be made in due course. of children with need status in the core data set of the Joint Strategic Needs Assessment. [75333] Teachers: Pensions Paul Burstow: I have been asked to reply. Health and wellbeing boards will be a forum for the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for national health service, local authorities and communities Education what requests for information on teacher to exercise shared leadership in arriving at a joint pensions from teaching unions his Department has (a) understanding of local needs, including the needs of accepted and (b) rejected since May 2010. [75486] local children, and a shared strategy to address those needs. The director of children’s services will be a statutory member of the health and wellbeing board—as Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 October 2011]: Wherever part of effective joint working, we would expect directors possible the Department aims to meet all reasonable of children services to share data such as the number of requests for information from teacher unions and other children with children in need status, and other relevant stakeholders. Since May 2010, no requests from the information with the board, to ensure that the needs of teaching unions for data have been rejected and there local children are fully taken into account are no outstanding data requests that have not been actioned. For example, within the last few weeks the Statutory guidance issued by the Department for Department has provided extensive data and information Education, “Working together to safeguard children”, to the teacher unions to support ongoing discussions states that Joint Strategic Needs Assessments should about possible changes to the Teachers’ Pension Scheme, include the needs of children with children in need in the context of Lord Hutton’s report on the reform of status, which will in turn inform the joint health and public service pension schemes. wellbeing strategy which drives local commissioning. The Joint Strategic Needs Assessment core dataset Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for brings together a list of indicators which health and Education if he will place in the Library copies of all wellbeing boards may wish to draw on when performing statistical information his Department holds on the assessments. The Government are developing statutory future funding of teacher pensions. [75487] guidance and wider resources to support boards in performing Joint Strategic Needs Assessments and developing joint health and wellbeing strategies. As part Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 October 2011]: The of this work, we will explore with health and wellbeing following documents are currently held in the House board early implementers and other partners what further Libraries and contain information relevant to the funding resources they would find supportive, such as a refreshed of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme. core data set. Teachers’ Pension Scheme (England and Wales) Resource Accounts are published annually, with those for 2010-11 Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for being published on 4 July 2011. The accounts contain Education if he will implement the recommendation of current membership data relating to the Teachers’ Pension the report by Professor Munro to introduce a duty on Scheme. local authorities to provide an early offer of help to families. [75335] The Government Actuary conducts a formal actuarial review of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme every four Tim Loughton: Early help in the child protection years and his report contains assumptions on future system is a top priority for the Government. The membership and liabilities. The last valuation of the Government response to Professor Munro’s review of Teachers’ Pension Scheme relates to the period 1 April child protection endorsed her conclusions that the early 2001 to 31 March 2004 and was published in November identification of neglect and abuse and the offering of 2006. The valuation covering the period up to March help to address needs early are in the best interests of 2008 has been deferred pending the outcome of the the child and young person. current negotiations on scheme reforms. The earlier help is given, the more likely it is to have a The Office for Budget Responsibility set out its forecasts positive impact on outcomes for children, and young for expenditure and receipts to public sector pension people. The system at present is too reactive and we schemes for the period up to 2015-16 in its Economic need to shift the balance towards identifying need and and Fiscal Outlook document. This was presented to 1177W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1178W

Parliament by the then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Name of Charity and voluntary the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening), in organisation visited March 2011. St Luke’s Centre Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Association of Chief Education what representations he has received from Executives of Voluntary teaching unions on proposed changes to teacher Organisations (ACEVO) pensions. [75488] Parliamentary Under-Secretary for The Fostering Network Children and Families (Tim Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 October]: The Government Loughton MP) have agreed that the recommendations from the The Young Men’s Christian Independent Public Service Pensions Commission (IPSPC), Association (YMCA) chaired by Lord Hutton of Furness, will form the basis Parents’ Intervention Takes a for consultation on public sector pension reforms. The Stand proposals are under discussion with teaching unions Young Disciples and employers. The Secretary of State for Education, Kids’ Company the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael The Soul Project Gove), and I meet regularly with the General Secretaries Activenture (London of all of the teaching unions at which pension reform is Youth), a regular item on the agenda. Harrow Coram Teachers: Vetting Voice (Alliance for Child Centred Care) The Station Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the number of Lives Not Knives teachers who have not been convicted of any offence Catch 22, 16plus Service but are unable to work as a result of unsubstantiated National Society of allegations disclosed in enhanced Criminal Records Prevention of Cruelty to Bureau checks. [74520] Children (NSPCC) St Georges’s Community Tim Loughton: Numbers on checks for teaching are Hub not collected, but we are making it easier to remove BAAF irrelevant information from disclosures. Individuals will NCVYS be able to correct mistakes before showing a disclosure The Zone, Nelson to an employer. Checks will only show non-conviction Safe Space information that police believe is relevant to a job, and Magic Breakfast, Leeds ought to be disclosed, not what might be relevant as is currently the case. Individuals, who can already seek to Minister of State for Further City and Guilds Education, Skills and Lifelong remove disputed information, will be able to appeal, if Learning (John Hayes MP) the police refuse. Edge Foundation For posts such as teaching, with these new protections, German British Forum employers should judge such information alongside Queen Elizabeth Scholarship comments by the applicant, employment references, Trust and specific duties of a post. Cadet Vocational Third Sector Qualification Association Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Kennington Fairbridge Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford) Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the name is of each charity and voluntary organisation Ministers in his Department Youth Services have visited since May 2010. [67547]

Tim Loughton [holding answer 19 July 2011]: As at Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 10 October, the charities and voluntary organisations Education what assessment he has made of variations visited by Ministers from the Department for Education in the extent to which local authorities have made are listed in the following table. reductions in services for young people; and if he will take steps in respect of local authorities that have Name of Charity and voluntary significantly reduced their youth service provision. organisation visited [75350] Secretary of State for Education Harrow Coram Tim Loughton: According to the figures provided by (Michael Gove MP) local authorities the average planned reduction in gross Prince’s Teaching Institute’s spend on services for young people for 2011-12 is 25%, summer school compared with plans for 2010-11. Figures for individual Minister of State for Schools (Nick Prince’s Teaching Institute’s local authorities should be treated with caution because Gibb MP) summer school there is some evidence that local authorities have interpreted Minister of State for Children and Bang Edutainment and used categories of planned expenditure in different Families (Sarah Teather MP) ways. For example, 28 authorities did not include any 1179W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1180W expenditure plans for youth work and discrepancies Energy: Tariffs are apparent for other youth areas such as substance misuse. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government believes that the assessment of local Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he priorities and decisions on levels of spend on services has had with energy suppliers on the provision to for young people are best left to local people. The consumers of information on how to access the Department has no current plans to intervene in respect cheapest tariff. [75651] of any local authority’s services for young people. Nevertheless the Secretary of State for Education, my Charles Hendry: Ministers within the Department right hon. Friend/the right hon. Member for Surrey meet regularly with energy suppliers to discuss a range Heath (Michael Gove), has a broad power to issue of market issues, most recently at the Consumer Energy directions to local authorities if they are failing to summit held on 17 October. perform any of their functions to an adequate standard We have negotiated a voluntary agreement with suppliers under Section 497Aof the Education Act 1996 (as applied to provide consumers with a prompt on bills to cheaper to children’s social care by the Children Act 2004). The deals this winter, and an additional communication to Department will act to secure improvement where there their customers who pay by cash or cheque to let them is evidence of significant, long standing failure, or where know how much they could save by moving to the there is evidence that a local authority has been unable cheapest direct debit tariff. There is also a commitment to do so. from suppliers to assess the impact of the prompt on bills and improve it in the light of this evidence. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what role he expects local authorities to play Fuels in the delivery of youth work and a youth service. [75429] Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton [holding answer 18 October 2011]: Energy and Climate Change how much (a) petrol and This Government expect local authorities to act as (b) diesel fuel has been released from Government strategic commissioners of services to young people. supplies in each of the last five years; and if he will They should commission effective services which promote make a statement. [75503] the personal and social development of young people who most need additional support, including services Charles Hendry [holding answer 19 October 2011]: based on youth work approaches. Local authorities The Government does not own emergency stocks of may provide an in-house youth service themselves, but petroleum products, such as petrol or diesel fuel, that are not obliged to do so. could be released in an oil supply disruption. However, as a member state of the EU and the International Energy Agency (IEA), the UK meets its international ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE obligations to hold oil stocks by directing companies under the Energy Act 1976 to hold minimum levels of Energy: Prices oil stocks as part of their commercial stocks. IEA member countries made available oil stocks in June Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 in response to short term supply disruptions as a Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to result of violence in Libya and Yemen; the UK made support households to meet their energy bills. [75577] available some three million barrels. Charles Hendry [holding answer 20 October 2011]: The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Nuclear Installations my right hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) chaired a consumer summit on 17 October to Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy launch the ‘check, switch, insulate to save’ campaign and Climate Change what discussions he has had with and a package of measures to help consumers this (a) HM Chief Inspector of Nuclear Installations and winter. We are working with consumer groups, energy (b) UK nuclear plant operators on the merits of suppliers and the regulator Ofgem to ensure consumers pre-staging remote-controlled equipment within can save money on their energy bills by checking on nuclear plants in circumstances where radiation levels their energy deal, switching their supplier if appropriate prevent human access. [75029] and insulating their homes. This includes an agreement suppliers will put a prompt on energy bills informing Charles Hendry: None. This is a matter for site operators customers how to get the lowest tariff and will write to in liaison with the Office for Nuclear Regulation. about eight million customers to tell them what they could save by switching to direct debit. The extended Renewable Energy carbon emissions reduction target (CERT) includes a number of changes that will encourage energy suppliers Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide insulation to off the gas grid homes. Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to Officials have also been working closely with the support community-owned renewable energy schemes. Department for Work and Pensions developing the data [73951] matching elements of the Warm Home Discount scheme to ensure that up to 600,000 of the poorest pensioners Gregory Barker: As a coalition, we pledged to encourage in Great Britain receive an automatic rebate of £120 on community ownership of renewable energy schemes. In their electricity bills this winter. pursuit of this objective my Department has: 1181W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1182W

Developed Community Energy Online, a web portal to provide Mr Bellingham: Since May last year, the Foreign and communities with a single point of contact to help communities Commonwealth Office has spent £159,739.58 on advertising benefit from the financial incentives in place for all who own job vacancies. This figure covers recruitment for UK-based renewable energy schemes; members of staff only. It excludes recruitment undertaken Held a summit on community energy in July in Birmingham by overseas posts advertising for local staff positions as attended by over 70 people. This summit identified a number of barriers which my Department is now seeking to address together the figures for this are not held centrally. with other government departments or through communities and All of the positions advertised during this period local authorities; and were approved for external recruitment as either business Taken forward the Plan LoCaL project, a tool to support local critical or a front line service, in accordance with the communities developing renewable energy schemes working through terms of the Government-wide recruitment freeze. the planning process. Plan LoCal has held five dissemination events around the country to local authority staff and community representatives. Egypt: Christianity Work to address other barriers continues and closely involves the key stakeholders. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise the treatment of Christians in Egypt with the Egyptian Government as a matter of urgency. [75385] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Afghanistan: Females Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), called the Egyptian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Foreign Minister on 12 October to discuss the situation he has had with his counterpart in the Afghan in Egypt, including his concerns about the unrest in Government concerning the representation of women Cairo that took place on 9 October. They discussed the in reconciliation talks on that country’s future. [75813] action that the Egyptian Government were taking to address the violence. Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my answer The Secretary of State also issued a statement, on of 18 October 2011, Official Report, column 893W. 10 October 2011, expressing his deep concern over this Afghanistan: Human Rights unrest and the loss of life in Cairo. He urged all Egyptians to refrain from violence, support the Egyptian Prime Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister’s call for calm and for all sides to engage in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will press for dialogue. He said that the freedom of religious belief any political agreement on the future of Afghanistan to needs to be protected and that the ability to worship in include verifiable benchmarks for all parties’ peace is a vital component of a democratic society. conformity with their human rights obligations under international human rights law and domestic law. Mr Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign [75829] and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise the treatment of Christians in Egypt with the Egyptian Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my answer government as a matter of urgency. [75538] of 17 October 2011, Official Report, column 610W. Algeria: Christianity Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), called the Egyptian State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Foreign Minister on 12 October 2011 to discuss the he has had recent discussions with the Algerian situation in Egypt, including his concerns about the government on the forced closure of Christian unrest in Cairo that took place on 9 October. They churches in that country; and if he will make a discussed the action that the Egyptian Government statement. [76062] were taking to address the violence. The Secretary of State also issued a statement, on 10 Alistair Burt: The Government raises the issue of October, expressing his deep concern over this unrest human rights, including freedom of religion and belief, and the loss of life in Cairo. He urged all Egyptians to with the Government of Algeria through a variety of refrain from violence, support the Egyptian Prime Minister’s mechanisms, including the EU-Algeria Association call for calm and for all sides to engage in dialogue. He Agreement, which came into force in September 2005. said that the freedom of religious belief needs to be We continue to monitor religious freedom in the protected and that the ability to worship in peace is a middle east and north African region closely and will vital component of a democratic society. raise this issue as part of our discussions with the Algerian Government. I myself will be meeting a delegation India: Commonwealth Games of Christians later this month. Departmental Advertising Mr Sutcliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has made to his Indian counterpart Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his on the delay in payments to British companies for work Department has spent on advertising job vacancies undertaken in relation to the 2010 Commonwealth since May 2010. [75631] Games. [76026] 1183W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1184W

Mr Jeremy Browne: We are in close contact with the attempted murder or other offences. The Foreign and British companies who are yet to receive payment for Commonwealth Office and the Department for services provided during the 2010 Commonwealth Games International Development (DFID) continue to monitor in Delhi. We have raised our concerns with the Indian the effectiveness of the Government of Uganda’s measures Government at ministerial and official levels. I raised to combat this appalling practice. This includes, as well the issue with Indian Minister of State for External as the normal criminal investigation and prosecution Affairs, Preneet Kaur, during my visit to India in June processes, the establishment of a ministerial task force, 2011. the setting up of child and family protection units in the police force, and by the end of this year the establishment India: Prisoners of a national plan of action on child sacrifice. Furthermore, the DFID office in Uganda has supported Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign child protection work in Uganda through UN Children’s and Commonwealth Affairs whether any staff of the Fund, who focus on child sacrifice as part of their British Embassy in India have visited Professor broader work. We are also engaged with local non Devinderpal Singh Bhullar in prison. [76165] government organisation who are working to raise awareness of this problem and who are campaigning for Mr Bellingham: Staff in our High Commission in tighter regulation of so-called “traditional healers” in India have not visited Mr Bhullar in prison. the country. We remain concerned about corruption and regularly Iraq: Trade Unions engage the Government of Uganda on this issue. In September, The Secretary of State for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), wrote to the Finance Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Minister making clear that our continued support to assessment he has made of the position of trade unions Uganda will depend on a shared commitment to the in Iraq; and if he will make a statement. [75722] underlying partnership principles of our development relationship. These include promoting good governance Alistair Burt: The UK continues to promote the and transparency, fighting corruption; and respecting importance of an active civil society in Iraq, of which human rights and other international obligations. trade unions play an important part. New draft labour laws are currently under review in Iraq, including those We have expressed particular concern regarding the on freedom of association and collective bargaining. unaccounted funds identified in reports by Uganda’s British embassy officials in Baghdad have in the past auditor general into expenditure on hosting the urged the Government of Iraq to recognise the important Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in 2007. role played by trade unions. We will continue to do this Action taken by us thus far included cuts to UK budget where appropriate. support in 2009 and 2010. DFID have also provided technical assistance to the Director of Public Prosecutions and Inspector General of Government to support them Middle East: Pipelines in enhancing their investigative and prosecution capacity. This month, three serving Cabinet ministers have stepped Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for down pending court proceedings over corruption charges Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British linked to Uganda’s hosting of the Commonwealth Heads nationals (a) were working on the Arish-Ashkelon of Government Meeting in 2007. They join the former pipeline immediately before the recent bombings and vice president who is also facing charges. We are also (b) now work on the Arish-Ashkelon pipeline. [75792] aware of recent corruption allegations raised by Ugandan parliamentarians around oil contracts and will continue Alistair Burt: We have not been made aware of any to monitor these developments closely. British nationals who have either worked on the Arish- Ashkelon pipeline before the recent bombings, or currently. Ukraine: Stray Dogs Uganda Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has recent discussions he has had with the Government of received on the (a) incidence of child sacrifice and (b) the Ukraine on the treatment and disposal of stray level of corruption in Uganda; and what dogs in that country; and if he will make a statement. representations his Department has made to the [76070] government of Uganda on such matters. [75797] Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Mr Bellingham: I am appalled by the ongoing practice Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member of child sacrifice, and other forms of ritual murder in for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has had no recent Uganda and around the world, as highlighted by the discussions with the Government of Ukraine on the Jubilee Campaign. treatment and disposal of stray dogs in Ukraine. Foreign According to official figures from the Ugandan and Commonwealth Office officials will make their Government, there were 14 cases of ritual murder last Ukrainian counterparts aware of some public concern year, including nine children. In response. 43 suspects in the UK about the way in which stray dogs are being were arrested, of which 32 were charged with murder, removed from the streets. 1185W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1186W

HEALTH Anne Milton: The Health Protection Agency and Public Health Wales are proposing to assess the potential Blood: Donors public health impact of Toxoplasma gondii in cat faeces. Causes of cases of toxoplasmosis that are identified through the enhanced national surveillance scheme (set Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for up in 2008) will be investigated through a case control Health (1) if he will require the Advisory Committee study for a year. Results of the study will be published on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs to in due course. conclude the review of its recommendations on the use of fresh frozen plasma using evidence from Imperial The public health impact of other potential risks College; [76250] from cat fouling is assessed by the Health Protection Agency as being very low. Human toxocariosis, caused (2) if he will publish the impact assessment on the by Toxocara roundworms in cats and dogs, is rare with Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues only a few cases reported each year in the United and Organs’ recommendations of July 2009 on Kingdom (12 in 2010). replacing UK derived fresh frozen plasma with imported plasma for all recipients; [76251] (3) when he will decide on implementation of the Children in Care recommendations of the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs of July 2009 that the use of UK-derived fresh frozen plasma (FFP) Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for should be ceased and replaced by imported FFP for all Health what support his Department provides for care recipients. [76252] leavers after they turn 18 years. [74736]

Anne Milton: In early 2012, the Advisory Committee Tim Loughton: I have asked to reply. on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs (SaBTO) Local authorities have clearly defined duties and plans to consider new information and analysis which responsibilities for their care leavers. The Care Leavers has become available since it formulated its initial (England) Regulations 2010 and guidance ‘Planning recommendations on fresh frozen plasma in 2009. The Transition for Adulthood for Care Leavers’ requires evidence to be considered by SaBTO includes that from local authorities to provide young people who turn 18 the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens which with appropriate leaving care support. This includes a takes account of evidence from Imperial College and regularly reviewed pathway plan and the allocation of a other research groups. In the light of that evidence, personal adviser who will provide advice and support SaBTO will consider whether the conclusions they reached on a range of matters including accommodation up in 2009 should be reviewed, and whether they wish to until the young person reaches the age of 21, or beyond make recommendations on this matter to United Kingdom if the young person is still in education. Health Ministers. Dependent on SaBTO’s conclusions The revised regulations and guidance on support for an impact assessment may be completed for Ministers care leavers are intended to bolster the quality of support, consideration and published in due course. and bring consistency so that all young people receive the same opportunities to succeed as their peers. Blood: Testing Key entitlements for care leavers include: the £2000 Higher Education Bursary for all eligible care leavers; Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for a new 16-19 Bursary scheme which will begin from the start of Health if he will sponsor research to develop an the 2011/12 academic year. Looked after young people and care analytical technique for testing for the presence of leavers are guaranteed a £1,200 bursary if they continue in Bt proteins in blood to verify whether they can pass full-time education; from the digestive tract of people and animals into the the provision of a personal adviser. Since April 2011 care blood supply. [75824] leavers up to age 25 who return to education or training have been able to also benefit from the support of a personal adviser while Anne Milton: Bt proteins are active components of they are on their agreed course; and some pesticide products and are also found in a number provision of vacation accommodation if the young person is in of insect-resistant genetically-modified crops. In both higher education. cases the safety of residual Bt proteins in food is evaluated as part of the relevant authorisation systems. Bt proteins are of low toxicity to mammals and the safety assessment Departmental Travel is not based on assumptions about whether or not they are absorbed into the blood supply. Nevertheless, the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for vitro available data from in tests show that Bt proteins Health how much his Department has spent on first are rapidly broken down by digestive enzymes in the class travel by (a) air, (b) boat and (c) train since May same way as most other proteins in the diet. There are 2010. [75521] no current plans to sponsor such research. Anne Milton: The Department’s travel and expenses Cats: Litter policy complies with the principles set out in the Civil Service Management Code and is in line with the Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health recent Treasury led review of departmental expenses if he will carry out an assessment of the potential risks policies and last year’s Government Efficiency of cat fouling to public health. [76057] announcements. 1187W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1188W

The Department is committed to reducing our first Anne Milton: The Department is very concerned if class travel and we have already made good progress in people are not taking their HIV medication without the achieving this. There has been a significant fall in first advice of their doctor. The Department recognises that class travel from May 2010 against costs for 2009-10 as faith organisations can make a positive contribution to follows: raising awareness of HIV and tackling stigma. HIV treatment is highly effective but it requires patients to £ take their HIV medication as prescribed by their national April 2009 to May 2010 to May 2011 to health service specialist doctor. March 2010 April 2011 September 2011 The Department funds the African HIV Policy Network Air 0 0 0 for a programme of HIV prevention, which includes a Boat000continuing programme of work with Christian and Rail 3,840,226.58 923,631.96 55,400.45 Muslim faith leaders.

First class air travel is not allowed and all flights are Hospitals: Food expected to be economy class unless there is a business need to travel business class. All rail travel must be standard class unless there is a clear business need to Martin Vickers: To ask the Secretary of State for travel first class. Health (1) what minimum nutritional level of food served to patients in NHS hospitals his Department Health Services: Bradford has set; [76187] (2) what assessment he has made of the nutritional Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if content of food served (a) in hospitals, (b) in he will discuss with Bradford and Airedale Primary residential care homes and (c) through meals on Care Trust the staffing reductions that Trust is making wheels services. [76188] in health improvement services. [76184] Anne Milton: The Department does not assess the Anne Milton: The Secretary of State for Health, my nutritional content of meals provided by the national right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire health service, social care or meals on wheels. However, (Mr Lansley), has no current plans to meet with Bradford the registration system established under the Health and Airedale Teaching Primary Care Trust (PCT) to and Social Care Act 2008 requires all providers of discuss health improvement staffing levels. National health and adult social care regulated activities to meet health service organisations, including Bradford and essential levels of safety and quality, and nutrition is a Airedale Teaching PCT, are independent employers in part of this. their own rights and responsible for decisions on staffing numbers. The Care Quality Commission (CQC) is responsible for the inspection and regulation of services. If CQC Health: Finance finds services are not meeting regulatory requirements, we expect it to use its powers of enforcement to ensure Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Health compliance. what mechanism will be used to determine the overall Good food is an essential part of hospital and social budget for the new public health system in England; care, and health and adult social care providers are and what proportion of that budget will be allocated to required by law to meet the nutritional needs of patients local authorities to fulfil their new public health and service users. Provider organisations are responsible responsibilities. [76257] for compiling their own menus and making decisions about the food served to patients and service users. This Anne Milton: The first step in determining the overall includes planning and monitoring the nutritional content budget for the new public health system in England has of menus. been the collection of recent expenditure on public health services which will become the responsibility of A range of information sources are available to help the new public health system. Further analysis will hospitals (and other providers) devise healthy, nutritious, build on this to take account of pressures from recently tasty menus, as follows: introduced polices and the overall resources available to ‘Healthier and more sustainable catering: toolkit and supporting the Department. nutrition principles’ is available on the Department’s website: It is not possible to say, until this analysis has been www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ completed, what proportion of the total public health PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_125579 budget will be allocated to local authorities. The Operating Framework for 2011-12 requires the NHS to consider the Government Buying Standards for Food (published Shadow allocations to local authorities for 2012-13 June 2011). will be published later this year. Best practice guidance on the delivery of food in the NHS was HIV Infection: Christianity produced by the Department and is now available at the Hospital Caterers Association website at: Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.hospitalcaterers.org/better-hospital-food/ what steps the Government are taking in response to the findings of a BBC investigation which found that at Martin Vickers: To ask the Secretary of State for least three people died after they stopped taking Health what average budget was allocated for medication on the advice of their Evangelical Christian providing food for each patient in a hospital in each pastors. [76162] year from 2001. [76249] 1189W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1190W

Anne Milton: This information is not collected in the designed around the patient and delivered by a multi- precise format requested. However, information is provided professional workforce which includes clinical nurse to the Department by the national health service giving specialists. average cost of feeding one patient per day as follows: Obesity Average cost of providing food for one patient per day (£) Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004-05 5.32 Health what recent discussions he has had with the 2005-06 6.19 Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and 2006-07 6.69 Sport on measures to address obesity in (a) adults and 2007-08 6.97 (b) children. [75948] 2008-09 7.95 2009-10 8.06 Anne Milton: Ministers have not had recent discussions with Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media These data were not collected before 2004-05. These and Sport (DCMS) on tackling obesity. However, the costs relate to the average daily cost for the provision of Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. all meals and beverages fed to one patient per day, Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), and I across all NHS trusts in England. The cost should met with the Minister for Sport and the Olympics, my include all pay and non-pay costs, including provisions, hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent ward issues, disposables, equipment and its maintenance. (Hugh Robertson), at DCMS in March to discuss the The figure provided has been supplied by the NHS Public Health Responsibility Deal which includes action and has been collected through the Estates Returns to raise levels of physical activity. Fred Turok, (co-chair Information Collection (ERIC) system. This is the annual of the Responsibility Deal Physical Activity Network) return made by all trusts in England to the Department and Jennie Price (chief executive of Sport England) and has not been amended centrally. The accuracy and were also present at this meeting. completeness of the information is the responsibility of A Minister from DCMS also attends the Cabinet the provider organisation. All ERIC data are publicly Sub-Committee on Public Health. available and are published at: www.hefs.ic.nhs.uk Pancreatic Cancer: Health Services

Malnutrition: Costs Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has for an audit of pancreatic cancer Martin Vickers: To ask the Secretary of State for services. [76166] Health (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the NHS of disease-related malnutrition in each year since Paul Burstow: There are currently no plans for an 2001; [76185] audit of pancreatic cancer services as part of the National (2) what information his Department has provided Clinical Audit and Patient Outcomes Programme to NHS patients on good nutrition; and if he will make (NCAPOP). a statement. [76186] The Government are committed to extending the number of national clinical audits across a much wider Anne Milton: The Department has not made any range of conditions and treatments, and to developing estimate of the cost to the national health service of their role as a driver of quality improvement. Following disease-related malnutrition, as this information is not a call for new topics for national clinical audit earlier held centrally. this year, the National Clinical Audit Advisory Group The Department does not provide advice on nutrition has provided advice to the Department on new topics to specifically to NHS patients. However, the Department be included as part of NCAPOP. The new topics will be provides an extensive range of information on nutrition announced shortly. through a range of approaches including NHS Choices and Change4Life. Pancreatic Cancer: Research

Nurses Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has for future spending on pancreatic Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health cancer research. [76167] what plans he has for the future role of clinical nurse specialists in the NHS. [76168] Paul Burstow: The Department is fully committed to clinical and applied research into treatment and cures Anne Milton: The Government recognises the important for cancer. The Department’s National Institute for contribution made by clinical nurse specialists and the Health Research (NIHR) welcomes high quality funding value that patients place on having their specialist expertise applications for research into any aspect of human and support. Under our proposals for reform, providers health, including pancreatic cancer. These applications of national health service funded care will continue to are subject to peer review and judged in open competition, be responsible for the skill mix of their workforce and with awards being made on the basis of the scientific for ensuring that staff, including specialist nurses, are quality of the proposals made. In all disease areas, the trained and competent in their roles. Commissioners amount of NIHR funding depends on the volume and will have the freedom to commission pathways of care quality of scientific activity. 1191W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1192W

The United Kingdom has the highest national per This is broken down by financial year as follows: capita rate of cancer trial participation in the world. The NIHR Clinical Research Network (CRN) is currently Financial year £ hosting 18 trials and other well-designed studies in 2010-11 66,872.90 pancreatic cancer that are in set-up or recruiting patients. 1 Details can be found on the UK CRN portfolio database 2011-12 68,648.60 1 at: April - September 12 http://public.ukcrn.org.uk/search Departmental Fines In August 2011, the Government announced £800 million investment over five years in a series of NIHR biomedical research centres and units, including Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for £61.5 million funding for the Royal Marsden/Institute International Development how many transport- of Cancer Research Biomedical Research Centre. related fines his Department has settled on behalf of its staff; and at what cost in each year since 2007. [74361]

Mr O’Brien: The Department for International HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Development’s central records show two instances of transport related fines being paid by the Department since 2007 at a total cost of £90. In 2007-08 the cost was Members: Heating £30 and in 2009-10 a payment of £60 was made.

Mr Winnick: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Departmental Official Hospitality Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, what guidance the House of Commons Commission provides in respect of the Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of heating for the offices of hon. Members International Development how much his Department during periods of moderate weather. [75656] spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in his Department in each of the last 12 months. John Thurso: The Commission has set environmental [73668] targets which include a reduction in carbon emissions resulting from energy use. The heating for the offices of Mr O’Brien: Management Board hospitality finances hon. Members is controlled locally and centrally (main are available on the DFID website: central heating plant) to maintain reasonable temperatures. http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/Our-organisation/ If the weather is likely to be warmer, the heating is Management-board/ turned off. This is usually from May to September but and are published every quarter in the normal way. may be varied for exceptional weather. The heating may also occasionally be switched off for essential (often statutorily required) maintenance and repairs. Departmental Travel

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much his Department INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT has spent on first class travel by (a) air, (b) boat and (c) train since May 2010. [75518] Afghanistan: Reconstruction Mr Andrew Mitchell: There has been no spend on Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for first class air or boat travel since June 2010. Spend on International Development how much his Department first class rail travel since June 2010 was £197. spent in Afghanistan in 2010-11; and what proportion of such spending was for road projects. [75209] Horn of Africa: Famine

Mr O’Brien: In 2010-11, the Department for International Development spent £104 million in Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan. Of this, £3.7 million was specifically allocated International Development how much his Department to road projects. has spent on famine relief in the Horn of Africa since May 2010. [75351] Departmental Advertising Mr Andrew Mitchell: The first famine of the 21st Century was declared by the United Nations (UN) in Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for two regions of Somalia on 20 July 2011 and it has since International Development how much his Department spread to four additional areas. has spent on advertising job vacancies since May 2010. [75628] Since the declaration of famine by the UN the UK has allocated £32.27 million towards aid agencies working Mr O’Brien: The Department for International in Somalia including in famine affected areas. Development (DFID) has spent £135,521.50 on advertising Across the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia, Kenya and job vacancies between 1 April 2010 and 30 September Somalia) since 1 April 2010 the UK has allocated 2011. £163.82 million to humanitarian organisations. 1193W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1194W

JUSTICE businesses engaged in supplying goods and services. For example, many SMEs can be found within larger supply Coroner Service chains. Since May 2010, my Department has awarded two Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts, one for catering and one for beverages. These Justice how many submissions his Department received contracts were valued at £100,000 and £15,000 respectively. in response to the consultation on the Draft Charter for the Coroner Service. [76158] Departmental Travel Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice received 135 responses to the consultation from a range of stakeholders Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for including coroners, local authorities, voluntary organisations Northern Ireland how much his Department has spent which support bereaved people, medical specialists, registrars on first class travel by (a) air, (b) boat and (c) train and members of the public. since May 2010. [75516] Prison Service Mr Paterson: Since May 2010, my Department has Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice spent the following amounts on first class travel: what length of contract will be awarded to the successful bidder for future public sector prisons which £ are put out to tender. [73657] (a) air 0 (b) boat 0 Mr Blunt: Current proposals are to seek contract (c) train 662.20 lengths of 15.5 years with a break clause at 7.5 years. Public Bodies Bill Since November 2010, all travel by Ministers and officials in my Department is by standard class. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many submissions his Department received in its consultation on the Public Bodies Bill. [76157] PRIME MINISTER Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice consultation on reforms proposed in the Public Bodies Bill closed on Adam Werritty 11 October. 2,742 responses have been received. The Department intends to publish its response to the Helen Goodman: To ask the Prime Minister (1) consultation by the end of this year. This will contain a whether he was informed of any concerns in respect of summary of the responses received. Adam Werritty expressed by senior officials of the Details of the consultation can be found on the Ministry of Defence; and if so, on what date he was Ministry of Justice website at: first informed of such concerns; [75893] http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/reform-public- (2) whether he received from (a) Sir Bill Jeffrey and bodies.htm (b) Sir Jock Stirrup any communication regarding concerns about Adam Werritty. [75894]

NORTHERN IRELAND The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the report by the Cabinet Secretary into the allegations Departmental Procurement against the former Secretary of State for Defence my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for (Dr Fox). Northern Ireland how many contracts his Department This is available on the Cabinet Office website: has awarded directly to third sector organisations in each month since May 2010; what the value was of http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/allegations- against-rt-hon-dr-liam-fox-mp-report-cabinet-secretary such contracts; and if he will make a statement. [75158] and copies are available in the Library of the House. Mr Paterson: Since May 2010, my Department has not awarded any contracts directly to a third sector Departmental Speeches organisation.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Prime Minister Northern Ireland how many contracts his Department whether (a) special advisers and (b) civil servants has awarded directly to (a) small, (b) medium-sized employed in his Office were given responsibility for and (c) large businesses in each month since May checking the content of ministerial speeches delivered 2010; what the value was of such contracts; and if he at the 2011 Conservative party conference. [76030] will make a statement. [75159] The Prime Minister: Special advisers and civil servants Mr Paterson: My Department does not currently carry out their duties in accordance with the Code of record and publish information about the size of suppliers Conduct for Special Advisors and the Civil Service as this does not fully reflect the number and size of Code. 1195W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1196W

Domestic Visits Departmental Meetings

Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Prime Minister when Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for he last (a) met a young unemployed person and (b) Transport how many meetings she has had with visited a Jobcentre Plus centre. [76032] representatives of (a) social enterprises, (b) charities, (c) large private sector businesses and (d) small and The Prime Minister: I have meetings and discussions medium-sized private sector businesses since May with a wide range of organisations and individuals at a 2010; and if she will make a statement. [75716] variety of locations around the country, including a number of welfare to work providers. I refer the hon. Norman Baker: Details of all ministerial meetings Member to the answer I gave on 12 October 2011, with external stakeholders are published quarterly and Official Report, column 332. are available on the DFT website at: www.dft.gov.uk/publications/ministerial-transparency/ #meetings I regret that information is not held under the categories SCOTLAND requested. Family Intervention Programme Departmental Procurement

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has had discussions with (a) the Transport whether any socio-economic considerations Prime Minister and (b) other Government ministers are included in her Department’s public procurement on the formulation of the family intervention tenders. [72399] programme for families with multiple problems. [76161] Norman Baker [holding answer 10 October 2011]: The Department may take into account socio-economic David Mundell: The programme referred to applies to considerations during procurement if and where they England only. are relevant to the requirement, where consideration is in accordance with The Public Contracts Regulations and the European Treaty Principles of Equality of TRANSPORT Treatment, Transparency and Freedom of Movement and where they can be applied in a proportionate, Bus Services: Disability non-discriminatory manner. This issue has been raised frequently following the Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Thameslink procurement process. Under the previous Transport what estimate she has made of the Government, the Department did not include consideration proportion of buses which have flat level access for of socio-economic factors in the evaluation criteria for disabled passengers. [75643] the Thameslink Invitation to Tender. Once the Invitation to Tender had been issued, the Department could not Norman Baker: The Department for Transport continues then include new evaluation criteria as this would have to work to improve physical accessibility to public transport. been contrary to UK and EU procurement law. The Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations As part of the growth review, we are examining 2000 (PSVAR) require all new buses and coaches used whether the UK is applying the EU procurement rules to provide local or scheduled services and designed to to best effect and managing procurements to maintain carry more than 22 passengers to be accessible to disabled competitive supply chains to meet its strategic needs, passengers. cost effectively, in the long-term. All existing buses and coaches used to provide local Gold-plating or scheduled services will then have to comply with PSVARby end dates between 2015 and 2020, depending Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for on vehicle type. At March 2011, 60% of all buses in Transport what steps her Department is taking to Great Britain had been issued with a PSVARaccessibility implement the Government’s commitment to end certificate and a further 25% had low floor access but gold-plating of EU rules. [75965] did not hold a PSVAR certificate. Mike Penning [holding answer 20 October 2011]: The Crossrail Line: Rolling Stock Government are determined to ensure that disproportionate regulation does not see UK businesses put at a competitive Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for disadvantage compared with their European counterparts. Transport what discussions (a) she and (b) her To this end the Department does not go beyond the officials have had with Transport for London and the minimum requirements of European Directives, unless Mayor of London on the role of Transport for London there are exceptional circumstances to warrant it. in leading on Crossrail rolling stock procurement. [75184] Kirkby-in-Ashfield Railway Station

Mrs Villiers: Ministers and officials regularly discuss Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for a variety of Crossrail matters, including rolling stock, Transport how many passenger (a) arrivals and (b) with the Mayor of London and Transport for London departures there were at Kirkby in Ashfield railway officials. station in each of the last five years. [75433] 1197W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1198W

Norman Baker: The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) Careful consideration is also being given to the results produces estimates for the number of passengers using of consultation on a new high speed rail network. stations on the rail network in Great Britain each year The eradication of all over-crowding and all standing based on ticket sales, The estimated number of entries on the UK rail network would require a vast programme and exits at Kirkby in Ashfield station in each of the of additional infrastructure construction and rolling last five years for which figures are available are shown stock procurement, which is not affordable. Alternatively, in the following table: it would require all passengers to reserve a seat before Estimated entries and exits at Kirkby in Ashfield railway station: travelling, which would limit journey opportunities to 2005-06 to 2009-10 an inappropriate extent. Entries Exits

2005-06 79,487 75,614 Railways: Wales 2006-07 76,294 73,291 2007-08 70,276 68,937 Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 75,490 75,490 Transport what recent discussions she has had with 2009-10 88,891 88,891 the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the electrification of the Valleys and Cardiff Local Routes Further information about these estimates can be [75549] found in the reports on the ORR website at the following link: Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has regular http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529 discussions at both official and ministerial level, with the Wales Office about a range of issues, including Public Transport: Concessions electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines. Following her appointment of 14 October 2011, the Secretary of State Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Putney Transport how many concessionary travel pass holders (Justine Greening), intends to continue this dialogue. are registered disabled; and how many such persons used their passes in the latest period for which figures Rolling Stock are available. [75864]

Norman Baker: The Department is not responsible Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Secretary of State for for issuing concessionary bus passes and so does not Transport what future plans she has for the process of maintain records of how many passes are held by procurement of rolling stock. [71801] concessionaires who are registered disabled. The Department has no information about how many Mrs Villiers: The Government’s review of public eligible disabled people used their concessionary bus procurement—part of the Government’s growth review—is pass in the latest period for which data are available. examining whether the UK is making best use of the application of EU procurement rules. Railways: Overcrowding The review will also consider the degree to which the Government can set out requirements and evaluation Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State criteria with a sharper focus on the UK’s strategic for Transport if she will consider the merits of interest and how the Government can support businesses reviewing passenger overcrowding on London to and ensure that when they compete for work they are Bristol sections of passenger rail services between doing it on an equal footing with their overseas competitors. London and South Wales. [74026] The recent deferral of the issue of Invitation to Negotiate documentation for the Crossrail rolling stock Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State and the Office of and depot procurement will allow relevant conclusions Rail Regulation publish statistics on passenger crowding. from the Government’s review of public procurement The most recently published statistics include passenger to be taken into account in the tender process. rail services between London, Bristol and south Wales. We will be considering Sir Roy McNulty’s Prior to electrification, and subject to successful recommendations on rolling stock but start from the commercial negotiations with First Great Western, the position that the rail industry should be best placed to Government expects additional carriages to be added to lead on rolling stock cascade proposals. The Government’s some high speed services on these routes, including to role is primarily focused on ensuring that these represent Bristol and south Wales. value-for-money.

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Speed Limits for Transport if she will consider the merits of introducing legislation to eradicate the incidence of passenger overcrowding and passenger standing on rail Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for services. [74103] Transport whether her Department has plans to review national speed limits for roads other than motorways. Mrs Villiers: Capacity improvement is a key priority [75427] for this Government. Significant investment is being made in additional rolling stock and infrastructure Mike Penning: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer of works across the UK, including major schemes such as 12 October 2011 given to the hon. Member for Brighton, the Thameslink Project and Crossrail. Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), Official Report, column 371W. 1199W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1200W

Waterloo-Reading Railway Line charities to switch their bank account. The Commission’s recommendations set out key requirements for the industry Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for to meet in this important area of work. The Government Transport what plans she has to improve the condition are clear that the new switching proposals need to be of the Waterloo to Reading Line between Waterloo fully implemented by September 2013 and will monitor and Richmond. [69384] progress closely through quarterly interim reports. In addition, preparations for disposals from the state- Mrs Villiers: The condition of the track between backed banks are continuing and the Financial Services Waterloo and Reading is a matter for Network Rail as Authority is continuing to improve the process for new owners and operators of the rail network. bank authorisations. As part of the High Level Output Specification (HLOS), Departmental Travel Stagecoach South West Trains (SSWT) and the Department are currently in discussions to augment more capacity Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the into Waterloo stations, providing more capacity for Exchequer how much his Department has spent on passengers including those between Waterloo and first class travel by (a) air, (b) boat and (c) train since Richmond. These discussions are subject to value for May 2010. [75528] money and affordability. Assuming that a commercial agreement can be reached between the parties, we hope Mr Gauke: Spending by Treasury Ministers and officials to make an announcement later this year. on first class travel between 1 May 2010 and 30 September 2011 was £905 by air and £95,532 by train. There was no first class travel by boat. TREASURY In May 2010 the departments travel policy was revised Banking: Asset Purchase and first class travel is now prohibited unless in exceptional circumstances: Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Where train journey is longer than three hours; what discussions he has had with the Bank of England Where there are no standard class facilities to accommodate on the use of the Asset Purchase Facility to purchase disabled or other special needs requirements under reasonable adjustment guidelines; commercial paper and corporate bonds. [76173] Where there are serious security concerns; and Mr Gauke: In his letter to the Governor of the Bank Where the overall cost of the first class ticket is less than the of England on 6 October 2011, the Chancellor of the overall cheapest ticket for standard class. Evidence (such as a screen shot from the booking page) must be retained for audit Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton purposes. (Mr Osborne), confirmed that the Asset Purchase Facility (APF) “continues to include facilities for eligible private Public Sector Finance sector assets financed by the issuance of central bank reserves, Treasury Bills and the Debt Management Office’s Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) cash management operations that are authorised up to how illiquid assets purchased by the Government are a maximum of £50 billion”. Private sector assets which assessed against his fiscal mandates; [76174] are eligible for purchase by the APF were set out by the (2) how illiquid assets purchased by the Government Chancellor’s predecessor in his letter to the Governor are included in the public finances; [76175] of 3 March 2009. Eligible private sector assets include paper issued under the Credit Guarantee Scheme, corporate (3) what definitions of liquid and illiquid assets his bonds, commercial paper, syndicated loans and asset Department uses in relation to public finances. [76176] backed securities. Mr Gauke: The fiscal mandate and the supplementary Banks: Competition target are assessed against aggregates from the Public Sector Finances. ONS have published an article which Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the sets out the accounting principles for liquid and illiquid Exchequer what steps are being taken to introduce assets in the public Sector Finances in an article The more competition in the banking sector. [76256] Public Sector Balance Sheet which is available on their website at: Mr Gauke: The Government are clear that more http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/elmr/economic-and-labour- competition is needed in the UK banking sector. The market-review/no--7july-2009/the-public-sector-balance- Independent Commission on Banking released their sheet.pdf final, report on 12 September 2011, including Stamp Duty Land Tax recommendations to improve competition. The Commission’s report can be found at: Mr Burley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://bankingcommission.independent.gov.uk/ whether his Department has considered the merits of The Government accept in principle the Commission’s extending the current stamp duty holiday for first-time recommendations to improve competition, and will now buyers beyond March 2012. [75977] consider the proposals in more detail. The Government welcome the Commission’s Mr Gauke: The Chancellor announced at the Budget recommendations which build on proposals put forward that the outcome of a review of the stamp duty land tax by the Payments Council in July this year to make it relief for first time buyers will be announced in autumn easier for personal customers, small businesses and 2011. 1201W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1202W

VAT: Housing Improvement Departmental Allowances

Bill Esterson: To ask the Chancellor of the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Exchequer what assessment he has made of likely Wales how much members of her departmental behavioural change by (a) consumers and (b) the management board have claimed in expenses since May building sector resulting from a reduction in value 2010. [74940] added tax on residential property renovation and refurbishment. [76169] Mr David Jones: Since May 2010 members of the departmental management board have claimed a total Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I of £1,670.52. gave on 17 October 2011, Official Report, column 713W, These costs include all expenses claimed by members that answer the figures quoted for the cost of reducing of the board discharging their daily departmental duties VAT to 5% on home improvements use the conventional in addition to claims made by the non executive board assumption that there is no behavioural change as a member, primarily relating to reimbursement for travel result of the tax change. In practice, to the extent that expenses. the rate reduction from 20% to 5% was passed on to consumers, the price of home improvements would fall, Membership and terms of reference for the board demand for them would increase, and the cost of the can be found on our website: reduction would be greater than the conventional figure http://www.walesoffice.gov.uk/about/management-board/ given in the earlier answer, as the expenditure on reduced rate home improvements would likely be at that expense Departmental Correspondence of expenditure on standard-rated goods and services. No estimates have been made of the behavioural Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales changes that would be associated with a rate change of whether she has received representations concerning this magnitude. (a) the big society bank, (b) the Work programme and It is doubtful that there would be any significant (c) volunteering since June 2011; and if she will make a change in compliance as a result of the rate change. statement. [75072] Those that defraud the system typically do not limit the scope of their crime to VAT. Mr David Jones: On 12 September I hosted a seminar on the big society, which included a question and answer session with the chief executive of big society capital WALES and representatives of voluntary organisations, social enterprises, private businesses and public sector Agricultural Wages Board organisations. Written feedback was received from a number of individuals that attended the seminar. Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what discussions she has had with ministerial Today I am attending a meeting of the Welsh Grand colleagues on the body from which farmers and farm Committee where Welsh Members of Parliament will workers in Wales should seek guidance on terms and discuss the implications for Wales of the Work programme conditions of employment after the abolition of the with the Minister for Employment, Department for Agricultural Wages Board; [75360] Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). (2) what meetings she has had with (a) representatives of the Welsh farming community and No other representations have been received. (b) the Farmers’ Union of Wales on the Government’s proposed abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board; Departmental Public Expenditure [75401] (3) what discussions she has had with ministerial David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for colleagues on the potential effect of the abolition of Wales how much her Department spent on new (a) the Agricultural Wages Board and (b) the furnishings in the last year. [72942] agricultural minimum wage on the pay levels of farm workers in Wales whose pay and conditions are set by Mr David Jones: In the current financial year to date, the Agricultural Wages Board. [75402] the Wales Office has spent £1,020 on new furnishings to replace those that were damaged or worn. Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and with the farming unions regarding a WORK AND PENSIONS range of issues that affect the farming community in Access to Work Programme Wales. Indeed, my right hon. Friend discussed this issue with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure Meriden (Mrs Spelman), last week. that (a) employers and (b) disabled people are made Assuming Royal Assent for the Public Bodies Bill, aware of the Access to Work Scheme; and if he will the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs make a statement. [76192] will carry out a public consultation on the future of the Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales. It is Maria Miller: Access to Work provides vital support the intention to publish impact assessments on the to help disabled people get and keep employment. We effects of abolition as part of the consultation exercise. want as many disabled people as possible to know this 1203W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1204W support is available. The recent Sayce review recommended Departmental Billing changes that will increase the number of people who are able to benefit from Access to Work and raise awareness Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work about its availability amongst disabled people and and Pensions how many external training courses staff employers. A public consultation following the review of his Department attended in the last 12 months; and has just closed and we will be considering ideas and what the cost to the public purse was of each course. reactions from that consultation and publishing a statement [74328] in due course. During the Sayce consultation period two Access to Chris Grayling: Current Department for Work and Work events were held, one in Manchester for third Pensions IT systems do not allow us to determine how sector organisations and Access to Work Users and a many external training courses staff have attended in further meeting in London for employers of disabled the last 12 months or the cost breakdown against each people. The attendee list at both events was extensive course. and featured many recognisable names. The following table outlines the cost to the public Also from 9 December 2010, disabled job seekers purse of external learning and development interventions, have been able to find out immediately if they are since October 2008: eligible for Access to Work support by completing a short online questionnaire at Directgov. If eligible, they External L&D Percentage reduction are then able to print off a new Pre-Employment Eligibility Period expenditure (£) year on year Letter which will help build their confidence when applying for jobs and can be shown to prospective October 2008- 17,519,220 0 employers. This delivers the commitments in the coalition September 2009 programme to reform Access to Work, so that disabled October 2009- 17,638,463 +0.68 people can apply for jobs with funding already secured September 2010 October 2010- 7,664,078 -56.55 for any adaptations and equipment they will need. September 2011

ATOS Healthcare: Manpower Civil service reforms introduced from April 2011 have begun to change the landscape for how people in Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Department for Work and Pensions access learning and Pensions how many disabled people are employed and development. As a result of these changes significant as health care professionals by ATOS Healthcare to savings have already been made. By 2012 we will have carry out work capability assessments. [73431] embedded the cross-government approach to centralised procurement of generic skills training through civil Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare hold the records of service learning; this will provide even greater value for healthcare professionals who have declared a disability. money for the taxpayer. This declaration is personal information that relates to a small group of individuals who are not employed by Departmental Furniture the Department. I am not therefore in a position to release the information requested. David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for ATOS Healthcare: Complaints Work and Pensions how much his Department spent on new furnishings in the last year. [72944] Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many complaints about employment Chris Grayling: The Department has spent the following and support allowance medical assessments conducted on furniture: by Atos Healthcare were recorded in (a) Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire constituency and (b) £ million England in each year since 2008. [74575] 2010-11 1.096 2009-10 8.0 Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare record complaints 2008-09 4.3 by Medical Services Centre (MSC). Therefore, data has 2007-08 5.0 been provided for Cardiff MSC (the MSC responsible for WCAs in the Carmarthen West and South The Department signed a 20-year PFI contract with Pembrokeshire constituency) and for the nine MSCs Telereal Trillium in 1998 for the provision of fully fitted located in England (Birmingham, Bootle, Bristol, Croydon, and serviced accommodation for which the Department Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Wembley). pays an all inclusive unitary charge. Region 2008 2009 2010 12011 The scope of the services provided by Telereal Trillium include the provision of all accommodation in over Cardiff MSC 1 85 119 162 1,000 buildings and services, which includes building English MSCs 1 1377 1939 1618 maintenance, life cycle works, energy/utilities management 1 To date. and environment, internal reorganisation, porterage, Note: security, health and safety, furniture and equipment, Only two complaints were received in 2008 as Employment and support allowance assessments only, commenced in October 2008. catering/security facilities and equipment, catering, waste Source: management, internal and external cleaning, room booking Atos Healthcare Medical Services Information Team. service, and landscape maintenance 1205W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1206W

This contract does not cover business driven change to the DWP on a daily basis. This process will ensure where specific types or brands of furniture are required claimants who are part of the PAYE system will no because of a new business initiative. Therefore, in 2010-11, longer have to submit earnings information clerically, for example, when Jobcentre Plus initiated the Response and will ensure that the right universal credit payments to the Economic Downturn project, which converted are made. primarily back of the house space to temporary front of The universal credit IT system will also interact with the house space in order to support more jobseekers, the HMRC national insurance systems to ensure DWP the Department had to pay for furniture not included contributory benefits and national insurance contributions within the contract price. are paid correctly. Departmental ICT Departmental Security Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) how many bids he received for the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work tender to create the software to support the universal and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to credit system; [72952] improve cyber-security in relation to his Department’s (2) to whom his Department granted the contract to estate; and if he will make a statement. [75180] create the software to support the universal credit system; and on what basis the decision was made. Chris Grayling: The Department routinely assesses [72953] current and future threats to its ICT systems and supporting infrastructures, and applies appropriate and proportionate Chris Grayling: The Department is currently replacing security measures to counter such threats, in line with a number of its commercial contracts to develop and the prevailing guidance from the central security authorities, maintain the applications for all the core and critical and industry best practice. business systems as these arrangements will soon reach These measures aim to protect the Department’s their natural end. These applications are used to deliver valuable assets and information. Aside from that, it has services to the public, including on-line benefit applications been the policy of successive governments not to make and job searches, as well as back-office functions. Some public the details of specific improvements in security of these contracts will be involved in the delivery of arrangements, as to do so would not be in the national universal credit (UC). interest. In response to the Invitation to Participate In a Dialogue (ITPD) issued on 29 January 2010 the Department Employment Schemes received 34 Bids from 10 suppliers. On 21 May 2010, six Short listed Bidders were selected. Following the completion of the Dialogue phase of the procurement the Department Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work issued the Invitation to submit a Final Tender (ITFT) and Pensions what data will be made publicly available on 16 March 2011. The Department received six Bids on outcomes achieved by each of the work programme from three Suppliers. providers; and whether such outcome data will be available by (a) provider, (b) region, (c) hours worked Contracts have been awarded to IBM and Capgemini per week by work programme client and (d) and DWP has extended its current contract with HP. employment destinations of work programme client. The evaluation criteria included financial and non-financial [73334] indicators such as cost, quality and value for money. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: As a minimum, DWP currently expects and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to publish referral figures from spring 2012 and job of creating the software to support the universal credit outcome figures from autumn 2012. DWP expects to system; [72954] make these publicly available by various breakdowns including age; gender; ethnicity; disability; provider; (2) what estimate he has made of the annual cost of local authority; parliamentary constituency; and contract maintaining the software to support the universal package area. However, this is dependant on the availability credit system. [72955] and quality of data from the administrative systems. Chris Grayling: The Treasury has allocated £2 billion DWP does not plan to publish hours worked per investment funding to the Department of Work and week or employment destination, as the job outcome Pensions for universal credit over the current spending and sustainment period definitions (in employment and review period. Plans on the allocation of funding are off benefit) do not require them to be measured. currently under review as part of work to produce an The exact details of what work programme national Outline Business case for next stage approval. statistics we will publish will be available once we have developed more detailed requirements and are confident Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that the data is of sufficient quality to publish. and Pensions how the new software for universal credit is expected to interact with (a) the PAYE system and An information note detailing the work programme (b) other existing HM Revenue and Customs systems. national statistics release strategy can be found at the [72957] following website: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/ Chris Grayling: Universal credit will interact with the index.php?page=statistical_summaries HMRC PAYE system for the provision of real time Included in the note is an invitation for feedback on the earnings data. DWP will notify HMRC of universal type of statistics users would like to see made available credit claimants and HMRC will provide earnings data for the work programme. 1207W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1208W

As soon as we are confident we have reliable data we Chris Grayling: Receipt of the severe disability premium will pre-announce an exact release date via this website is dependent on receipt of disability living allowance, and on the UK Statistics Authority publication hub. constant attendance allowance or attendance allowance. Statistics will be published in the DWP quarterly statistical Since the benefit cap will not apply to households summary and via an internet based tabulation tool with someone in receipt of one of these three benefits, offering users bespoke breakdowns of the headline no single-person household with the severe disability statistics. premium will be affected by the benefit cap.

Jobseeker’s Allowance Housing Benefit

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the potential cost of Pensions what the administrative cost has been to his delaying the introduction of the overall benefit cap for Department of transferring lone parents onto (a) 13 weeks, (b) 26 weeks and (c) 52 weeks for all jobseeker’s allowance or another benefit when their households who become liable over the course of the entitlement to income support ends according to the period in (i) 2013-14 and (ii) 2014-15. [76280] age of their youngest child under the previous stages of lone parent obligations in (a) November 2008, (b) Chris Grayling: The following table shows the cost of October 2009 and (c) October 2010; and what the delaying the introduction of the overall benefit cap for estimated cost will be to his Department of new claims by (a) 13 weeks, (b) 26 weeks and (c) 52 transferring lone parents onto jobseeker’s allowance or weeks. another benefit when their youngest child is aged five or six from early 2012. [76282] 13 weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks Chris Grayling: The lone parent obligations (LPO) Cost 13/14 (£ million) 10 20 30 policy, which changed the income support (IS) entitlement Cost 14/15 (£ million) 20 20 40 conditions so that certain lone parents can no longer claim is solely on the grounds of being a lone parent, Figures are rounded to the nearest £5 million and are was introduced in three stages: estimates. Analysis of those affected by the benefit cap for lone parents with a youngest child aged 12 or over from 24 has been modelled using survey data; as such there is a November 2008; degree of uncertainty around the results for lone parents with a youngest child aged 10 or over from 26 October 2009; and Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the potential cost of for lone parents with a youngest child aged seven or over from 25 October 2010. delaying the introduction of the overall benefit cap for (a) 13 weeks, (b) 26 weeks and (c) 52 weeks for all Table 1 shows the total administrative costs of the households who would otherwise become liable for the first three stages of LPO combined. We have not monitored restriction but who were eligible for working tax credits the operational administrative expenditure of each stage in the previous 12 months. [76281] of LPO separately, therefore the costs are presented by financial year not by LPO delivery stages. Chris Grayling: Costings which take account of prior Table 1: Actual operational expenditure of the first three stages of eligibility to working tax credit are not available. The LPO following table shows the cost of delaying the introduction £ million of the overall benefit cap for new claims who have not 2008-09 6.2 claimed a DWP benefit in the previous twelve months by (a) 13 weeks, (b) 26 weeks and (c) 52 weeks. 2009-10 15.4 2010-11 13.5 Cost (£ million) The June 2010 Budget announced further extension 13 weeks 26 weeks 52 weeks of the LPO policy, to lone parents with a youngest child 2013-14 5 10 15 aged five or over. We estimated in the recent impact 2014-15101020assessment, ‘Conditionality Measures in the 2011 Welfare Reform Bill’, that the change will help 20,000 to 25,000 Figures are rounded to the nearest £5 million. Analysis extra lone parents into work in steady state. Table 2 of those affected by the benefit cap has been modelled shows the estimated administrative costs of the extension using survey data; as such there is a degree of uncertainty LPO from lone parents with a youngest child aged around the results. seven or over to those with a youngest child five or over. These figures are estimated expenditure and may be subject to changes. Housing Benefit: Disability Premium Table 2: Estimated operational expenditure of the LPO extension £ million

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and 2011-12 2.9 Pensions what proportion of single person households 2012-13 21.8 which will be affected by the overall benefit cap are in 2013-14 11.7 receipt of a severe disability premium in their benefit 2014-15 8.2 award. [76279] 1209W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1210W

The administrative costs presented in tables 1 and 2 Letter from Stephen Penneck: include the costs of additional work focused interviews, As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I benefit administrations and IT changes. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what the change in the level of youth unemployment in Motherwell Social Security Benefits and Wishaw constituency was in the last three months. (075749) The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Pensions whether, for joint claimants of universal However, estimates of unemployment for the requested age band credit (a) personal independence payment and (b) and geography are not available. contributory benefits will be paid to the partner who is As an alternative we have provided the change in number of the recipient of universal credit whether or not they are people aged 18 to 24 years who were claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance also the claimant of the personal independence (JSA) in Motherwell and Wishaw in the last three months. The payment or contributory benefit. [76283] change between June 2011 and September 2011 was an increase of 15. Chris Grayling: The Government recognises the National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and JSA count important role that cash benefits such as disability are available on the Nomis website at: living allowance play in supporting disabled people to overcome the inequalities they face and remain independent. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk That is why personal independence payment will remain outside universal credit, ensuring it is non means-tested Universal Credit cash benefit to assist disabled people to meet extra costs associated with disability. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Personal independence payment will be a personal Pensions with reference to the answer of 11 May 2011, benefit paid to the disabled person or their appointee. Official Report, column 1247W, on universal credit, In households where two or more claimants are entitled whether the earnings disregard rule applying to such an to personal independence payment, individuals will be individual on a contributory benefit living as a couple, able to claim the benefit in their own right. once universal credit is in place, would be the level Contributory jobseeker’s allowance and employment applicable to a (a) single person, (b) couple and (c) and support allowance will normally be payable to the lone parent (i) with and (ii) without children; whether claimant of those benefits. We are considering, in cases any earnings of such an individual’s partner would where universal credit is greater than the contributory be offset against the earnings disregard for the benefit, whether we would make a single payment through contributory benefit; and whether the earnings rule for the universal credit which would include any contributory claimants of carer’s allowance will be affected in the benefit entitlement. same way as for claimants of contributory benefits on the introduction of universal credit. [76284] Social Security Benefits: Ex-servicemen Chris Grayling: Entitlement to contributory benefits is assessed on an individual basis. It is intended that this Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State will continue when universal credit is introduced. The for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to Government intend to bring the earnings rules for provide financial support to former armed forces contributory benefits into line with universal credit, but personnel who are not in receipt of resettlement it is not envisaged that the earnings of the partner commutation. [73415] would be offset against contributory benefit entitlement. The carer’s allowance earnings rule is not changing Chris Grayling: Former armed forces personnel who as a result of the introduction of universal credit. are not in receipt of resettlement commutation may be Current rules will remain in that the earnings limit in entitled to social security benefits as long as they meet carers allowance means that all entitlement to that the relevant conditions of entitlement. benefit is lost if earnings exceed £100 a week net of Jobcentre Plus has an Armed Forces Champion in certain expenses, tax and national insurance contributions. every district to ensure that service families get the best This rule applies to the individual carers’ earnings and help and support available from people who understand not to the earnings of a partner. their unique circumstances. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Unemployment: Young People Pensions with reference to the answer of 11 May 2011, Official Report, column 1247W, on universal credit, at Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for what level of earnings a claimant of contributory Work and Pensions what the change in the level of employment and support allowance (ESA) would be youth unemployment in Motherwell and Wishaw (a) worse off and (b) better off under the earnings constituency was in the last three months. [75749] rules once they are aligned with the universal credit earnings rules as compared to the current ESA earnings disregard of £95 per week; and, if there are Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. any losses for claimants, whether he proposes these The information requested falls within the responsibility will be covered under the transitional protections of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority arrangements for the introduction of universal credit. to reply. [76285] 1211W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 1212W

Chris Grayling: The earnings disregard for a household Work Capability Assessment with a disabled person will vary from a minimum of £2,080 per year up to a maximum of £7,000 per year. The impact of the new earnings disregard will depend Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on the individual circumstances of the claimant and on and Pensions what procedures his Department requires final decisions made about the universal credit taper ATOS Healthcare to follow when advising claimants of rate. a review of their benefit case; what timescales his The Government are currently considering what Department has set for each part of the process; and transitional arrangements will apply once universal credit what records his Department holds in relation to such is introduced. procedures. [73226] The Department published a policy briefing note relating to earnings disregards and tapers in universal Chris Grayling: Atos Healthcare do not advise claimants credit on 10 October 2011. This is available at: of a review of their benefits case. This is the role of my http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/ucpbn-14-disregards-tapers.pdf Department.

11MC Ministerial Corrections21 OCTOBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

Ministerial Correction Military rank Number of personnel Civilian grades Friday 21 October 2011 C2 1 D3 D (Military Support Function) 1 DEFENCE E1 9 E2 1 NATO Rapid Reaction Corps Industrial Skill Zone 2 1

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for The correct answer should have been: Defence what the (a) number and (b) rank is of the UK personnel in HQ Allied Rapid Reaction Corps. Nick Harvey: The number and rank/grade of UK [65561] military and civilian personnel in the HQ Allied Rapid [Official Report, 18 July 2011, Vol. 531, c. 584W.] Reaction Corps is shown in the following table:

Letter of correction from Nick Harvey: Military rank Number of personnel An error has been identified in the written answer given to the right hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Lieutenant General 1 Soames) on 18 July 2011. The civilian figures provided Major General 1 in the table were incorrect. Brigadier 5 The full answer given was as follows: Colonel 11 Lieutenant Colonel 23 Nick Harvey: The number and rank/grade of UK Major/Lieutenant Commander 76 military and civilian personnel in the HQ Allied Rapid Captain 25 Reaction Corps is shown in the following table: Warrant Officer Class 2 19 Warrant Officer Class 1 6 Military rank Number of personnel Staff Sergeant 11 Sergeant 18 Lieutenant General 1 Corporal 27 Major General 1 Lance Corporal 13 Brigadier 5 Colonel 11 Civilian grades Lieutenant Colonel 23 Major/Lieutenant Commander 76 B1 1 Captain 25 B2 1 Warrant Officer Class 2 19 C1 1 Warrant Officer Class 1 6 C2 4 Staff Sergeant 11 D 2 Sergeant 18 D (Military Support Function) 1 Corporal 27 E1 6 Lance Corporal 13 E2 1 Industrial Skill Zone 2 1

WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Friday 21 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 75WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 76WS Response to Offender Personality Disorder Provider Work Programme Information Sessions .. 76WS Consultation ...... 75WS TREASURY ...... 75WS Extraordinary ECOFIN (22 October 2011) ...... 75WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 21 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1155W EDUCATION—continued Serious Fraud Office...... 1155W Departmental Consultants...... 1170W Telephone Tapping: Metropolitan Police ...... 1155W Departmental Location...... 1172W Departmental Manpower...... 1172W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1155W Departmental Pay ...... 1172W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 1155W Departmental Procurement...... 1173W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 1156W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 1173W Higher Education: Disadvantaged ...... 1157W Departmental Training ...... 1173W National Centre for Replacement, Refinement and Free Schools: Academies...... 1173W Reduction of Animals in Research...... 1157W Schools: Dogs ...... 1174W Skills and Jobs Retention Group...... 1158W Schools: Vocational Guidance...... 1174W Students: Finance ...... 1159W Secondary Education: Admissions...... 1175W Special Educational Needs...... 1175W CABINET OFFICE...... 1159W Teachers: Pensions ...... 1176W Childbirth ...... 1159W Teachers: Vetting...... 1177W Third Sector...... 1177W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1159W Youth Services...... 1178W Housing: Older People ...... 1160W Housing: Prices ...... 1160W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1179W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 1159W Energy: Prices ...... 1179W Local Government Finance: North Yorkshire...... 1160W Energy: Tariffs ...... 1180W Fuels ...... 1180W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1161W Nuclear Installations...... 1180W Bookmakers...... 1161W Renewable Energy...... 1180W Creative Partnership Active...... 1161W Cultural Heritage ...... 1162W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1181W Departmental Allowances...... 1162W Afghanistan: Females...... 1181W Departmental Meetings ...... 1162W Afghanistan: Human Rights ...... 1181W Film ...... 1163W Algeria: Christianity ...... 1181W Government Art Collection ...... 1163W Departmental Advertising...... 1181W Government Procurement Card ...... 1163W Egypt: Christianity...... 1182W Horse Racing: Bookmakers ...... 1163W India: Commonwealth Games ...... 1182W Museums and Galleries...... 1164W India: Prisoners...... 1183W Ofcom: Press Complaints Commission ...... 1164W Iraq: Trade Unions...... 1183W Public Libraries...... 1164W Middle East: Pipelines...... 1183W Television: Violence...... 1165W Uganda ...... 1183W Ukraine: Stray Dogs ...... 1184W DEFENCE...... 1165W Adam Werritty...... 1165W HEALTH...... 1185W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1166W Blood: Donors ...... 1185W Armed Forces: Uniforms ...... 1166W Blood: Testing...... 1185W Defence Business Services National Security Cats: Litter...... 1185W Vetting ...... 1166W Children in Care...... 1186W Defence Equipment ...... 1167W Departmental Travel ...... 1186W Departmental Consultants...... 1167W Health: Finance ...... 1187W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1168W Health Services: Bradford ...... 1187W Ex-servicemen: Mental Health Services ...... 1167W HIV Infection: Christianity...... 1187W NATO...... 1169W Hospitals: Food ...... 1188W Nuclear Weapons: Testing...... 1169W Malnutrition: Costs...... 1189W Nurses...... 1189W EDUCATION...... 1169W Obesity...... 1190W Adoption Allowances...... 1169W Pancreatic Cancer: Health Services ...... 1190W Departmental Allowances...... 1170W Pancreatic Cancer: Research ...... 1190W Col. No. Col. No. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1191W TRANSPORT—continued Members: Heating ...... 1191W Railways: Wales ...... 1198W Rolling Stock ...... 1198W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1191W Speed Limits ...... 1198W Afghanistan: Reconstruction ...... 1191W Waterloo-Reading Railway Line ...... 1199W Departmental Advertising...... 1191W Departmental Fines ...... 1192W TREASURY ...... 1199W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1192W Banking: Asset Purchase...... 1199W Departmental Travel ...... 1192W Banks: Competition ...... 1199W Horn of Africa: Famine ...... 1192W Departmental Travel ...... 1200W Public Sector Finance ...... 1200W JUSTICE...... 1193W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 1200W Coroner Service ...... 1193W VAT: Housing Improvement ...... 1201W Prison Service ...... 1193W Public Bodies Bill...... 1193W WALES...... 1201W Agricultural Wages Board...... 1201W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1193W Departmental Allowances...... 1202W Departmental Procurement...... 1193W Departmental Correspondence ...... 1202W Departmental Travel ...... 1194W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1202W

PRIME MINISTER ...... 1194W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1202W Adam Werritty...... 1194W Access to Work Programme ...... 1202W Departmental Speeches...... 1194W ATOS Healthcare: Complaints ...... 1203W Domestic Visits ...... 1195W ATOS Healthcare: Manpower ...... 1203W Departmental Billing ...... 1204W SCOTLAND...... 1195W Departmental Furniture...... 1204W Family Intervention Programme ...... 1195W Departmental ICT ...... 1205W Departmental Security ...... 1206W TRANSPORT ...... 1195W Employment Schemes ...... 1206W Bus Services: Disability ...... 1195W Housing Benefit ...... 1207W Crossrail Line: Rolling Stock ...... 1195W Housing Benefit: Disability Premium...... 1207W Departmental Meetings ...... 1196W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 1208W Departmental Procurement...... 1196W Social Security Benefits...... 1209W Gold-plating ...... 1196W Social Security Benefits: Ex-servicemen ...... 1209W Kirkby-in-Ashfield Railway Station...... 1196W Unemployment: Young People...... 1209W Public Transport: Concessions ...... 1197W Universal Credit...... 1210W Railways: Overcrowding...... 1197W Work Capability Assessment...... 1212W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Friday 21 October 2011

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 11MC NATO Rapid Reaction Corps ...... 11MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Friday 28 October 2011

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CONTENTS

Friday 21 October 2011

Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1180] Not amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill [Col. 1187] Motion for Second Reading—(Philip Davies)—on a Division, negatived

Master’s Degrees (Minimum Standards) Bill [Col. 1236] Motion for Second Reading—(Chris Leslie)

Petition [Col. 1249]

Concessionary Coach Travel [Col. 1250] Debate on motion for the Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 75WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1155W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 11MC]