Tuesday Volume 556 15 January 2013 No. 96

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 15 January 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 717 15 JANUARY 2013 718

The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): House of Commons Despite the huge improvements that have been made over the last decade in the outcomes for people with Tuesday 15 January 2013 cardiovascular disease, it is still one of the biggest killers in England and the largest cause of disability. That is why we are developing a CVD outcomes strategy, The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock which will set out where there is scope to make further improvements in patient outcomes in this area.

PRAYERS Neil Carmichael: I am chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on vascular disease, which recently [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] produced a report highlighting the need for early diagnosis and intervention, and the additional risks associated with obesity and diabetes. Is the Secretary of State BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS willing to meet me and some of my colleagues to consider how we can improve outcomes for sufferers of CANTERBURY CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) vascular disease? Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now considered. Mr Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent work with the all-party group and for the group’s Hon. Members: Object. constructive response to our consultation on the outcomes Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 22 January. strategy. I am more than happy to meet him and other representatives of the all-party group. With an ageing population and rising levels of obesity, we cannot be LEEDS CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) complacent about cardiovascular disease and have much Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now to do. considered. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Prime Hon. Members: Object. Minister promised before the election that there would Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 22 January. be no reconfigurations or closures unless there was clinical and local support. Why then has the Secretary NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) of State decided to break up the existing vascular Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now network centred on Warrington hospital, meaning that considered. emergency patients face a trip to Chester by ambulance, when this has neither clinical support nor support in the Hon. Members: Object. local community? When did that policy change, or was it just an election promise that the Conservatives never Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 22 January. intended to keep?

READING BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) Mr Hunt: We believe in the clinical networks, including Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now the network for cardiovascular disease. We have increased considered. the funding for those networks by 27%. However, we want them to include mental health and maternity Hon. Members: Object. services. We think that it would be wrong to do what the Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 22 January. Labour party wants, which is to concentrate that funding on cardiovascular disease and cancer, and deprive of CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS)BILL [LORDS] the clear benefits of such networks the 700,000 women (BY ORDER) who give birth on the NHS every year and the nearly Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 1 million people who will be diagnosed with dementia. 22 January (Standing Order No. 20). Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Given that the majority of vascular interventions are acute in nature, following trauma or cardiac episodes, is it not Oral Answers to Questions reckless for NHS Lancashire and NHS Cumbria to be talking about moving vascular services away from the Morecambe bay area, meaning that people from the south lakes and north Cumbria will have to travel as far HEALTH as Preston, Blackburn or Carlisle to receive treatment? Will the Secretary of State meet me, other local MPs and local consultants to discuss how we can put the The Secretary of State was asked— matter right for local people?

Vascular Disease (England) Mr Hunt: We are very keen to ensure that all reconfigurations of services have strong local, clinical 1. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What recent support. We are making good progress in this area. assessment he has made of the provision of treatment There is always a trade-off between access, which I for vascular disease in England. [136832] recognise is extremely important in a rural constituency 719 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 720 such as the hon. Gentleman’s, and the centralisation of to point that out to colleagues in Wales and the Welsh services, which sometimes leads to better clinical outcomes. Assembly, and to make the point that it is the Conservatives I am happy to arrange for him to meet me or one of my and the coalition Government who deliver better patient colleagues to discuss his concerns in more detail. care through investing in the NHS.

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Those with diabetes, Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Will the Minister such as myself, are five times more likely to get tell the House how many NHS trusts failed to meet the cardiovascular diseases. Last year’s National Audit Office accident and emergency target of 95% of people being report indicated that 1 million diabetics did not get their seen within four hours last week? When was the last nine checks. What steps will the Secretary of State take time that target was met nationally? to ensure that those checks are made available to all diabetic patients? Dr Poulter: I am happy to inform the hon. Lady that we are meeting the 95% target nationally for the A and Mr Hunt: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on E wait. On the most recent figures available, 96% of his campaigning work for people with diabetes, and I patients were seen within that period—96 out of every am aware that there are 24,000 premature deaths every 100 patients are seen within four hours in A and E. The year because we are not as good as we need to be at key difference between this Government and the last tackling the disease. It is shocking that only half those Labour Government is that we trust clinicians to ensure with diabetes are getting the full set of nine checks that that they prioritise those patients in greatest need ahead everyone with diabetes should be getting every year, and of purely meeting targets and ticking boxes. when we publish the cardiovascular disease outcomes strategy—which I hope will be in spring—I hope we will Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): As winter bites, the address some of his concerns about how we can do a NHS faces its toughest time of year, but there is mounting better job for diabetes sufferers. evidence that the Secretary of State has left it unprepared. For 105 of his 133 days in office, the Government have Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Deep vein thrombosis missed their own A and E target for major A and Es. is the leading direct cause of maternal deaths across the Last week, for the first time, the figure fell below 90%. United Kingdom. Will the Minister consider interaction Right now in A and Es up and down England, ambulances with the regional assemblies, including the Northern are stuck in queues outside, patients are on trolleys in Ireland Assembly, to agree a UK strategy to address corridors, and people are waiting to be seen for hours that issue? on end. Does the Minister accept that there is a growing crisis in our A and Es, and if he does, what is he doing Mr Hunt: I am happy to look into the issue of DVT about it? and it should be included in our CVD outcomes strategy. Just as we will look at diabetes, I will ensure that we also Dr Poulter: The right hon. Gentleman is good at consider how we might be able to help on DVT. putting across figures based on brief snapshots in the year. We know that on an annual basis we are meeting Hospital Waiting Times (England) the target, and that 96% of patients are being seen on time in A and Es. We have made allowances for winter 2. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): What pressures—which we know are always difficult during recent steps he has taken to reduce hospital waiting the flu season every year—and we have put aside times in England. [136833] £330 million to ensure that we support the NHS during those winter pressures. Let me make it clear to the right The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health hon. Gentleman that it is wrong to try and distort (Dr Daniel Poulter): Latest figures for October 2012 figures based on outcomes from a snapshot of just a show that 70,000 fewer patients are waiting longer than few days or a week. It is important to put across the 18 weeks than at the last election. The Government’s clear picture, which is that the Government are meeting mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board makes targets in the NHS and patients are being treated in a timely access to services a priority. much more timely manner than under the previous Government. David T. C. Davies: Those figures compare extremely well with those in Wales, where most patients are waiting Andy Burnham: I suggest to the Minister that he needs for 26 weeks, and many for 36 weeks. Would the Minister to get out on the ground in the NHS a bit more. The be willing to share some advice on how to get waiting figures I gave him were for major A and Es. If he got lists down with his counterparts in Wales, and perhaps out more, he would realise that his complacency—which discuss with them why patients wait so much less time in we have just seen at the Dispatch Box—is not justified. the Conservative NHS in England than in the socialist Let us look at Milton Keynes, which was identified by NHS in Wales? the Care Quality Commission as one of the 17 understaffed hospitals, and where last week just 72% of patients were Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is right to highlight key seen within four hours. Milton Keynes is one of 15 trusts differences between the NHS in England and in Wales. in England where A and E performance plummeted The Labour-run Assembly in Wales is cutting funding below 80%. These are the kind of figures that we have by around 8%, which will—of course—impact on the not seen in the NHS since the bad old days of the quality of care available to patients and other front-line mid-1990s. Ministers like to blame nurses, but it is time services. At the same time, in England we are ensuring they started accepting some responsibility. Will the that we continue to invest, with £12.5 billion in the NHS Minister today ensure that all A and Es in England have during the lifetime of this Parliament. I would be happy enough staff to get safely through the winter? 721 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 722

Dr Poulter: I reassure hon. Members that, unlike any Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): The independent Member on the Opposition Front Bench, I still work in reconfiguration panel has already visited Leeds and I the NHS every week and I ensure that I see what understand that it will visit again before that date. If it happens on the ground. That cannot be said of any decided that both Leeds and Newcastle ought to stay Front-Bench Opposition Member. We on this side of open, would that be agreed? the House have Ministers who are in touch with what is happening in the NHS on the ground. On A and E Mr Hunt: I will make my decision when I have the waits, we are trusting clinicians to exercise their judgment, IRP’s final recommendation. Obviously I cannot speculate which is why we now have a 95% target. We are ensuring— on what the final decision will be, but let me reassure the and the statistics show—that we are meeting that target right hon. Gentleman, as I did with my hon. Friend the on an annual basis. Patients are being treated in a timely Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), that my manner. Furthermore, we have put in £330 million to decision will be taken on the basis of clinical need—in deal with winter pressures. It is wrong of the right hon. other words, what will save the most lives. Gentleman to try and mislead the House in this way—[HON. MEMBERS: “Oh!”]—and use figures from a snapshot in time, rather than in a generality, which would indicate— Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I note my right hon. Friend’s comments about his final decision being Mr Speaker: Order. Sorry, the Minister needs to based on clinical advice, but will he also give consideration withdraw the suggestion that anybody tried to mislead to patients and families in areas that are more remote the House. That simply needs to be withdrawn; that is from the centre, such as my constituency? This decision all. causes extra strain and cost to families and will also mean that they will not go to Newcastle, and therefore Dr Poulter: Indeed. I do withdraw that comment, Newcastle will not achieve its target number of operations. Mr Speaker, and I apologise for saying that there was any deliberate attempt to mislead the House at all. I was Mr Hunt: I am aware of those arguments. There is simply pointing out the fact that the right hon. Gentleman always the difficult issue of access versus the benefits of is highlighting a snapshot in time— clinical specialisation, but I need to wait for the IRP to report before I can give a view on how it applies in this Mr Speaker: No, no. Order. I must say to the Minister instance. that when a retraction is required, that is what is required and that is all that is required. We move on. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I understand the Secretary of State’s reluctance—quite rightly—to Leeds Children’s Hospital (Heart Surgery Unit) comment on the processes he is going through, but will he confirm that he expects full transparency in the review 3. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): What process? That means all the minutes of the JCPCT representations he has received from clinicians in Yorkshire being given to the review process and none of them and the Humber on the decision to close the children’s being redacted. heart surgery unit at Leeds children’s hospital. [136834] Mr Hunt: I do want this to be a transparent process The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): and we will follow all the appropriate guidelines in that I know that some are disappointed at the decision by respect. the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts and want to see children’s congenital heart surgery continue at their local hospitals. However, the Safe and Sustainable Mr Speaker: Order. I must say to the House that if we review was an NHS review, independent of Government. are to get through the questions we need shorter questions Under the circumstances, and given that legal proceedings and shorter answers from now on. and a review by the independent reconfiguration panel are under way, my hon. Friend will understand that it is Midwives not appropriate for me to comment further.

Andrew Percy: One hundred and seventy clinicians 4. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): from across Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire have What steps he is taking to support the recruitment and written to express their dismay at the decision, stating training of midwives. [136835] that for time-critical transfers it “exposes a number of children to the risk of death,” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health largely because it will require transfers to Newcastle, (Dr Daniel Poulter): The Government are committed to where services are not co-located. Does that not prove ensuring that the number of midwives in training matches that the decision does not enjoy clinical support in the needs of the birth rate. There are now over 800 more Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire and that it is simply midwives working in the NHS than there were in May not true that this has been a clinically led review? 2010, and a record 5,000 currently in training.

Mr Hunt: I have seen the letter to which my hon. Rehman Chishti: The Oliver Fisher neonatal intensive Friend refers and I understand that these are extremely care unit at Medway Maritime hospital in my constituency complex issues. Let me reassure him that when I take is an excellent charity that looks after approximately my final decision, it will be on a clinically led basis. 900 premature and sick new-borns each year. What I will do that when I have received the IRP’s report, further midwife support will the Government give to which I am due to receive by 28 March. such care units? 723 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 724

Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to in the north-east. Why then did Ian Dalton say that point out the excellent work done at his local unit, using the new advisory committee on resource allocation which receives funding from the NHS and from charitable formula sources. We are investing more money into training “on its own would have…moved resources from areas where midwives, and there are now more midwives working in people…have worse health outcomes to those where people have the NHS. It is for local commissioners to capitalise on much better outcomes”. that, and to invest in support for neonatal units. Does that not show that the Government have no commitment to reducing health inequalities? Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): With births per midwife rising, maternity services being cut Norman Lamb: I think the news on the allocations for and newly qualified midwives unable to find a job, what public health budgets is actually a remarkably positive on earth happened to the famous boast of the Prime story. Every part of the country will see real-terms Minister that he would recruit 3,000 more midwives and increases in funding for public health. This is an historic make their lives a lot easier? moment where we shift the emphasis away from repair to prevention of ill health. The hon. Lady’s own area Dr Poulter: With respect, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will see real-terms increases. Across the country as a should listen to my answers before he pre-prepares a whole, there will be an average of 10.8% over two years statement. I just outlined clearly that in the past two real-terms increases in public health funding. I am very years there have already been 800 more midwives working proud that the Government are doing that. in the NHS, and there are record numbers in training thanks to the investment being made by the Government. Patient Experience We are delivering on making sure that we are investing in maternity and investing in high-quality care for women. 6. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): What steps he is We are proud to be doing that—something the previous taking to ensure that patient experience is a priority for Government failed to do. the NHS. [136837]

NHS Funding Formula (Rural Areas/Elderly People) The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Improving the quality of care throughout the NHS is a 5. Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What key priority for the Government, and one of the things assessment he has made of the effect of the current we are doing to make that happen is, for the first time, NHS funding formula on rural areas with a large elderly asking all NHS in-patients whether they would recommend the care they received to a friend or member of their population. [136836] family.

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Priti Patel: My constituents have consistently been Lamb): Age is the main driver of an individual’s need let down by the failure of the last Government and a for health care, as reflected in recent funding formulae. debt-ridden PCT to invest in local community health This is for the NHS Commissioning Board, but the services. Will my right hon. Friend join me in encouraging independent advisory committee recommends continuing the new clinical commissioning groups to respond to to review the case for additional resources in rural Witham’s growing population and health needs by investing areas, particularly as more information on community in localised community health care? provision becomes available. Mr Hunt: I am happy to do so, and I commend my Nigel Adams: It is disappointing to hear that the hon. Friend for her campaigning, because if we invest NHS Commissioning Board has decided not to implement properly in community health services, we can allow the a fairer funding formula. What does the Minister suggest frail elderly, who are among the biggest users of the I say to my constituents who potentially face having NHS, to stay at home happily, healthily and for much services withdrawn, when, in the same region, areas longer. That must be a key priority for us all. such as Barnsley constituents receive almost 30% per head more in funding? Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): At the last Health questions, the Secretary of State told me Norman Lamb: As a Member of Parliament for a “Every NHS bed is getting an extra two hours of care per week rural area with an elderly community I understand the compared with the situation two years ago.”—[Official Report, hon. Gentleman’s concerns, but allocations have to be 27 November 2012; Vol. 554, c. 122.] based on solid evidence. The area where we do not have Quoting national average nurse-patient ratios does not the evidence is on community services. The data will help to improve the patient experience, but cutting start to be collected on that and we will therefore be able 7,000 nurses sure does affect it. We have unsafe levels of to demonstrate whether community services cost more care in 17 hospitals. Will he treat this issue a bit more in rural areas, as I suspect they do. If that is the case, the seriously and do something about those unsafe levels? allocation formula will be able to reflect that. Mr Hunt: With respect to the hon. Lady, she cannot Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): talk about alleged cuts in the NHS while her Front-Bench The north-east suffers some of the worst health outcomes team support a policy of real cuts in the NHS budget. in the country, despite having excellent care services. On In the last Opposition day debate, the right hon. Member many occasions, the Government have said that they for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said that he thought it was are committed to reducing health inequality, specifically irresponsible of the Government to increase the NHS 725 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 726 budget in real terms. That means he wants a real cut in Mr Hunt: I am happy to inform my hon. Friend that the NHS budget, which would make the staffing issues 25,000 people have benefited to date from the cancer to which she referred much, much worse. drugs fund, which the previous Government failed to introduce. On top of that, 53,000 more people every Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): Does my year are being admitted for chemotherapy and 219,000 right hon. Friend agree that one of the most effective more cancer treatments are happening every year than things we can do to improve the patient experience of happened in any year under the last Labour Government. health and care is to improve the co-ordination, not just between the hospital service and community-based health 21. [136853] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I services, but between the NHS and social care, and to have previously raised with the Secretary of State the put in place the infrastructure, including the IT opportunity cost—in terms of cost and effectiveness infrastructure, to make that real? —of the proton beam therapy system. Given that expert opinion—in the form of the national radiotherapy advisory Mr Hunt: My right hon. Friend makes an extremely group—is divided, and given that the cost of the proton important point—in fact, I will be giving a speech on beam therapy system is 100 times more than other this tomorrow—because, in the end, if it is not possible advanced radiotherapy systems that my region and to see a full medical record of some of these frail elderly others lack, why is he proposing to spend £125 million or heaviest users of the NHS going in and out of the on it? system throughout the year, it is not possible to give them the integrated, joined-up care that they desperately Mr Hunt: I recognise that the hon. Gentleman has a need. This will be a very big priority for us. long-standing view on this matter. I am guided by clinical advice. Over the next two years, we will publish Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): One of the cancer survival rates by multidisciplinary team across the biggest drivers of patient experience on hospital the country in all the major cancers for the very first wards is the dedication and care of the nursing staff, time. That will give us a much better objective base from but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and which we can work out what the most effective treatments Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) said, the Care Quality are. Commission has identified 17 NHS hospitals that are operating with unsafe staffing levels, putting vulnerable 20. [136852] MrNickGibb(BognorRegisandLittlehampton) patients and especially older people at risk. Frankly, it is (Con): Despite the fact that the incidence of breast cancer the Secretary of State’s job to ensure that every NHS peaks in the 85-plus age group, the peak age for breast hospital operates with safe staffing levels, so does he now surgery is for women in the their mid-50s and 60s. Does think it was a mistake to strip out almost 7,000 nursing that not confirm the findings of the Royal College of posts from our NHS? Surgeons-Age UK report that, despite trends towards older people leading healthier lives, many older women Mr Hunt: It is my job, and that is why the Government are missing out on curative surgery, from which they are have protected the NHS budget. The hon. Gentleman’s perfectly fit enough to benefit? Front-Bench team, on the other hand, want to cut it in real terms. He has to think carefully before he starts Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend will know that last October talking about all these so-called cuts, given that his we outlawed age discrimination, and if that is the reason shadow Health spokesman wants to cut the NHS budget for this happening, it is totally unacceptable. We have to in real terms. [Interruption.] That is what he said last recognise that cancer is one of our biggest killers and December. I agree with the Care Quality Commission that the over-85s are a key group if we are going to that it is totally unacceptable for hospitals to have tackle it. He will welcome today’s news about making unsafe staffing levels. The commission also said, however, available drugs to tackle breast cancer, which may mean that budgets and financial issues were not an excuse, that surgery will no longer be necessary. because those budget pressures existed throughout the NHS and many hospitals were able to deliver excellent 19. [136851]MrJimCunningham(CoventrySouth)(Lab): care despite them. Will the Minister tell us what the reduction in size of the Department’s cancer policy team will be after April Cancer, Stroke and Heart Disease (Survival Rates) 2013, and whether any of the team’s functions will be removed to other bodies or scrapped? 7. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): What steps he is taking to improve the survival rates of Mr Hunt: We are reducing investment in the back cancer, stroke and heart disease patients. [136838] office so we can put more money into the front line. The result is that there are 219,000 more cancer treatments The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): every year than there were under the last year of the Our cancer strategy set out the ambition to save 5,000 lives Labour Government. by 2014-15 through earlier diagnosis, cancer screening and improved access to treatment. We are working on an outcomes strategy for cardiovascular disease. Sexual Health Policy

David Morris: Will my right hon. Friend tell the 8. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): When his House how many patients have benefited from the Department plans to publish its proposed new sexual cancer drugs fund to date? health policy document. [136839] 727 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 728

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Ian Swales: I thank the Secretary of State for that Lamb): We plan to publish our policy document on answer. This is an issue in my area, with the chief sexual health and HIV shortly. Improving sexual health executive of South Tees hospital saying that one factor is very important for individuals and communities. is excessive use of A and E for non-urgent cases, resulting in pressure on hospital resources. What can the Secretary Nick Smith: Can the Minister explain why the sexual of State do to make sure that A and E units are used health policy has been delayed for almost two years? only for genuine accidents and emergencies? Does he accept that this delay is affecting the ability of PCTs to deliver effective sexual health services? Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I am concerned that 140 non-urgent operations Norman Lamb: From April, local authorities will be were cancelled in the South Tees area between November responsible for commissioning services. Because we have and January, which is significantly higher than this time seen this really impressive increase in funding for public last year. He is right that we need to think about the health, local authorities will have the ability to maintain model for an A and E service. Nearly 1 million more and indeed improve sexual health services for their local people go through A and E every year than they did two communities. That is something of which we should be years ago. We have to recognise that for A and E proud. services to be sustainable, we need to think about people who would better off seeing their GP or going to an urgent care centre. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): On the sexual health strategy, the Minister will Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is be aware that nearly half of the national incidence of the Minister aware that health care appointments are HIV is in London, so what steps will be taken from still bedevilled by the number of people who do not April to co-ordinate the prevention of HIV London-wide? show up, even for appointments with consultants and senior hospital staff? Is it not about time that we looked Norman Lamb: I am very much aware of the situation at a simple system, in which people could pay up front a in London, and I acknowledge that some good work has small amount of money that they get back when they already been undertaken there. Local authorities are turn up? I am sure that my constituents, as good Yorkshire very much aware of their responsibility that will apply people, would take their appointments much more seriously from April and are already working with clinical if they got their money back when they turned up? commissioning groups in London to ensure that comprehensive services are in place for the London Mr Hunt: I am interested to hear that suggestion community. from the Labour Benches, which is not necessarily where I would have expected it to come from. The hon. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): Gentleman might be surprised at my response, which is Pan-London preventive health care is important, but that I would be very concerned about such a system. I with the devolution of funding to local authorities, understand the issue and I think we need to modernise there is a great risk of them refusing to pool funds and the process of GP and hospital appointments. Technology of preventive health programmes in London collapsing. can play a good role in that, for example by giving Can the Minister reassure Londoners that pan-London people text reminders of appointments that they have programmes will continue? booked. My concern is that the system suggested by the hon. Gentleman would put people off going to see their Norman Lamb: Yes, I can absolutely reassure the hon. doctor if they needed to. I would not want to do Gentleman that there will be comprehensive services, anything that deterred people from using the NHS who which will cut across local authorities. We have to most need to do so. remember that local authorities will be under a legal responsibility to provide confidential open access to Accident and Emergency Departments (Waiting Times) sexual health services and contraception services. Local authorities in London are aware of the need to ensure 10. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): What that comprehensive services are available from April estimate he has made of the number of patients who this year. waited longer than four hours for treatment in accident and emergency departments in 2012; and if he will Healthcare Appointments/Operations (Postponements) make a statement. [136841] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health 9. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): What recent assessment (Dr Daniel Poulter): In 2012, the NHS saw nearly 22 million he has made of the number of healthcare appointments people in A and E across the country, with 96% seen and operations which are postponed. [136840] within four hours, which I am sure the hon. Lady will agree is a great achievement. That means that the A and The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): E clinical quality indicators for high-quality patient My Department collects data on the number of cancelled care are being met in the NHS. elective and urgent operations, which show that these remain very low compared to total activity. We do not Kate Green: Last week, the Manchester Evening News collect information on postponed appointments or reported that more than 1,000 patients had waited more operations. The NHS must make arrangements locally than four hours at A and Es across Greater Manchester to minimise postponements and cancellations to avoid in December. I am sure the Minister is well aware of the the inconvenience to patients. planned downgrading of services at Trafford general 729 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 730 hospital, and I understand that last night the joint John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Can the Minister update health scrutiny committees of Trafford and Manchester the House on the roll-out of the 111 service and its agreed that the proposals should be referred to the effect on A and E admissions and 999 calls? Secretary of State for decision. Given last month’s alarming figures, will Ministers assure me that in reaching Dr Poulter: As my hon. Friend knows, we are developing a decision about the future of Trafford general hospital, the 111 service further to improve triage and take pressure full account will be taken of capacity across Greater off accident and emergency services when that is Manchester? appropriate. I am sure all Members agree that when patients do not need to go to A and E, it is best for them Dr Poulter: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I to be treated in the community or properly triaged. recognise her concerns for her constituents. As has been outlined, there are seasonal variations, and I am sure Specialist Accident and Emergency Doctors that local commissioners will want to take such issues into account when they make decisions, and they must 11. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): meet the reconfiguration tests set out by the previous What steps he is taking to improve the recruitment and Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the retention of specialist accident and emergency doctors. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). [136842]

Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The Better The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Services Better Value review of NHS services in south-west (Dr Daniel Poulter): That is a long-standing problem. London identified that Croydon university hospital does Recognising that emergency medicine is moving towards not have sufficient senior doctors in its A and E, and becoming a 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week service, nor did it under the previous Government. The review the Government have set up an emergency medicine has been put on hold because Surrey has asked to be task force to tackle the problem and encourage more included. Will the Minister reassure my constituents recruitment of middle-grade doctors to A and E specialties. that there will be a rapid solution to ensure that we have the A and E care that we deserve? Eric Ollerenshaw: Might it be time for us to take a leaf out of the Department for Education’s book, and Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend is right to highlight a consider offering scholarships or bursaries tied to doing long-standing problem—it has not happened just recently the job for a certain number of years in order to —of a lack of particularly middle-grade doctors in A improve recruitment and retention in this difficult area? and Es. Although the number of consultants has increased by about 50%, as A and Es move rightly towards Dr Poulter: Bursaries are already available to medical becoming a 24/7 consultant-led service, attracting middle students to encourage recruitment to the medical profession. grades to the specialty has been a problem. We set up a As for the specific question of A and E recruitment, at task force to consider that, as well as making better use the end of last year I published—alongside the report of a multidisciplinary work force and emergency nurse from the Doctors and Dentists Review Body on the practitioners to meet some of the staff shortages. consultant contracts and clinical excellence awards—a report on junior doctors in training. That has given us an excellent opportunity to consider what rewards and Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): The performance inducements may be available to encourage junior doctors of A and E services has an obvious and acute effect on to move into A and E and other specialties in which the the performance of ambulance services. In London, work is particularly intensive and the meeting of staffing freedom of information requests show that the number requirements has posed a long-standing challenge. of ambulances waiting more than 30 minutes from arriving at hospital to handing over their patients has Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Government gone up by two thirds over the last year, that ambulances say that the number of doctors in the NHS has increased are missing their targets in responding to the most by 5,000 since they came to power. When did those serious life-threatening callouts, and that the average doctors start their training? length of time that patients wait in ambulances before accessing A and E is going up, and in some cases Dr Poulter: We know that it takes five or sometimes patients are waiting almost three hours. The Care Quality six years for doctors to complete their medical training. Commission says that London Ambulance Service NHS The key difference is that under the plans left by the last Trust does Government not all doctors were guaranteed places of “not have sufficient staff to keep people safe”. work in the NHS after completing their training, whereas The question for the Secretary of State is simple: what is the present Government are ensuring that they find he going to do about it? NHS jobs. That is why we have 5,000 more doctors in the NHS. The same applies to midwives: under the last Dr Poulter: The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight Government they were not finding places after completing the unacceptable variations in the quality of triage and their training, but under this Government they are, and handover between ambulance services and hospitals, there are 800 more of them. not just in London but in other parts of the country. Many hospitals, however, do that well, and it is important Alcohol Consumption (Damage to Health) that local MPs highlight the issue, champion good practice on handovers and ensure that that good practice 12. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): What steps is carried out at other A and Es. It is unacceptable that he plans to take to address damage to health caused by patients should wait for handover. alcohol consumption. [136843] 731 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 732

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman as services must be designed around patients, and that Lamb): We published the Government’s alcohol strategy allocation to cost centres must come second to delivering on 23 March 2012, and we are taking a comprehensive services? approach to reducing the incidence of alcohol-related disease and crime. Our strategy includes the introduction Dr Poulter: I agree with my hon. Friend. Where there of a minimum unit price for alcohol, actions at local are well-functioning local services that have local support, level, and pledges from industry under the responsibility commissioners should recognise that in their decisions, deal. but it is also important to highlight that any reconfiguration of local services has to meet the four tests laid down Kelvin Hopkins: The number of UK deaths from liver by the previous Secretary of State: support from cirrhosis has increased by five times since 1970, while in GP commissioners; strengthened public and patient France, Italy and Spain it has halved, and is now lower engagement; clarity on the clinical evidence base; and than the number in Britain. Even more disturbing is the support for patient choice. I hope that reassures my fact that thousands of babies are still being born every hon. Friend. year in Britain permanently damaged by alcohol. When will the Government take urgent, effective action to Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): One of the ways in deal with this crisis? which the Government are trying to prevent urgent care and A and E admissions is by holding down the funding for unplanned admissions to 30% above 2009 levels. Norman Lamb: I entirely share the hon. Gentleman’s That is proving very hard in places where many people concern. The Government have already taken action: who arrive for A and E or urgent care are not registered we set out a strategy in March last year, and we are now with a GP. What can the Minister do to help with the consulting on the introduction of a minimum alcohol funding of services in communities where it has proved price. That could save up to 700 lives a year in 10 years’ impossible to reduce A and E admissions? time, which would make a dramatic difference. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman supports what the Government are doing. Dr Poulter: The hon. Lady rightly highlights that there are challenges ensuring registration with GPs, particularly in areas with large migrant population groups. Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): Damage to health In some parts of London, each year as many as one as a result of alcohol consumption often leads to wider third of patients move and change GP surgeries. This is social damage. I have seen that at first hand when a big challenge and we are encouraging local hospitals visiting shelters for the homeless in Rotherham. Many to make sure that people who turn up at A and Es homeless people cannot gain access to rehabilitation inappropriately subsequently register with a GP. services because they do not have GPs to refer them. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that those Community Hospitals services are available to everyone, especially those who need them most? 14. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What his policy is on community hospitals. [136845] Norman Lamb: The hon. Lady has raised a really important point. One of the consequences of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health responsibility deal is that by 2015, 1 billion units of (Dr Daniel Poulter): The Government are committed to alcohol—about 2%—will be taken out of the market, supporting the NHS to work better by extending best and that will help some problem drinkers significantly. practice on improving discharge from acute hospitals Moreover, the money that the Government are investing and increasing access to care and treatment in the in public health gives local authorities an opportunity community. Community hospitals play a valuable role to invest in prevention services in order to deal specifically in this process. with the core group of people to whom the hon. Lady has referred. Miss McIntosh: I welcome my hon. Friend’s reply. Will he give an assurance that going forward there will Urgent Care Services always be a place for community hospitals in respect of palliative and rehab care, which can be more easily delivered in one place? 13. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What plans he has to review urgent care services. [136844] Dr Poulter: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Community hospitals can provide a good focus for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health palliative care, respite care, intermediate care and step-up (Dr Daniel Poulter): The configuration of urgent care and step-down care close to home, particularly for services is a matter for the local NHS, and commissioners people in rural communities who may otherwise have to should ensure that there is provision of appropriate travel very long distances to attend hospitals. I hope the urgent care services locally to provide safe and effective community hospitals in my hon. Friend’s constituency care for patients. will have a long and vibrant future.

Lorely Burt: A review of urgent care services by the Topical Questions new GP-led clinical commissioning group for Solihull is causing consternation as it is throwing the future of our T1. [136857] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North highly regarded walk-in centre into doubt. Does the Poole) (LD): If he will make a statement on his Minister agree that users must be properly consulted, departmental responsibilities. 733 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 734

The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): units at the Royal London hospital and the King George We want to make 2013 the year we break down the hospital in Ilford being open. Last week, on 8 January, stigma associated with dementia and transform the care Queen’s hospital in Romford was again diverting and treatment received by the one in three over-65s who ambulances. Will the new Secretary of State look at the will get the condition as some stage. Today, the Alzheimer’s decision of his predecessor, whom I see on the Bench Society published a map showing the totally unacceptable near him, and cancel the insane decision to close the variations in dementia diagnosis across the country, accident and emergency unit at King George hospital? with some areas diagnosing fewer than a third of people who have the condition, thereby denying them the medicine Mr Hunt: The decision has been taken, but we have and support that would help them live happily at home made it absolutely clear that we will not proceed with for much longer. We are determined to put this right. implementing it until there is sufficient capacity in the area, particularly at Queen’s hospital in Romford, to Annette Brooke: Given that next week is designated cope with any additional pressures caused by it, and as cervical cancer prevention week and we know that that undertaking remains. many women ignore, or do not recognise, the early symptoms of cervical cancer, what action will the Secretary of State take to raise awareness of cervical cancer T5. [136861] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) symptoms? (Con): The NHS has confirmed that North Yorkshire is the only part of the country that will inherit a Mr Hunt: That is a very important point. Every year £19 million debt, which has to be carried by the new we screen about 3.5 million women for cervical cancer clinical commissioning groups. That was the situation and we think we save about 4,500 lives, but we could we were promised we would never be in. What is the save many more. Our “Be Clear on Cancer” campaign is Secretary of State going to do to urgently address the highlighting the four clear symptoms people need to chronic underfunding of rural areas for the NHS in watch out for: unexplained bleeding, weight loss, pain, North Yorkshire? and lumps. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health T3. [136859] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): The (Dr Daniel Poulter): My hon. Friend and I have previously Minister of State earlier failed to answer the key question discussed this matter, and she is right to highlight that on midwife numbers, so I wonder whether the Secretary there are particular challenges to address in rural areas, of State could take it on. Before the last election, the in terms of both distances to travel and an ageing Prime Minister made a firm pledge to increase the population requiring considerable health care resources. number of midwives by 3,000. Will the Secretary of That will of course be a matter for the NHS Commissioning State tell the House whether that pledge will be honoured Board to examine when it considers future funding or discarded along with all the other promises on the allocations. NHS?

Mr Hunt: The number is up by 800 already, but as the T6. [136862] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Labour Front-Bench team knows, it takes some time to As one in three women who get cancer are over the age train midwives. I say to the hon. Gentleman that none of 70, can the Minister say when the newly launched of the investment in additional midwives would be “Be Clear on Cancer” campaign will be rolled out possible if we had a real-terms cut in the NHS budget, nationally? which is what his Front-Bench team wants. Mr Hunt: It is our intention to roll it out nationally as T2. [136858] Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): soon as possible, and I will make sure that the hon. Many of my constituents in Jaywick have complained Lady gets the exact details. about local GP services, saying that there are too many locums and inadequate provision. In order to attract and retain good GPs in an area with a challenging work T9. [136865] Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): load, the local commissioning body needs to be able to Many of my constituents are concerned by the Care offer them more favourable terms. Will the Minister Quality Commission’s recent findings at Milton Keynes ensure that there is sufficient local flexibility so that the hospital, which came despite an increase in nursing commissioning body can do that? staff since 2010. What reassurances can my right hon. Friend give my constituents that the problems are being rectified and that they will be able to enjoy high-quality Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes a very important care? point, putting his finger on a key issue: the 24-hour availability of GP services. That is going to be crucial as the NHS goes forward. The NHS medical director, The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Bruce Keogh, is looking at the whole issue of seven-day Lamb): First, let me say that substandard care simply working in the NHS and will certainly be examining will not be tolerated and it has to be taken extremely what flexibility needs to be given to local areas to make seriously. I understand that the trust involved is reviewing that possible. its staffing levels so that the necessary improvements can be made. It has also started two-hourly checks, T4. [136860] Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): during which nursing staff check that patients have On 30 December, ambulances in north-east London everything they need to be both safe and comfortable. were diverted from the Whipps Cross, Queen’s and There is clearly a big challenge and the trust has to Homerton hospitals, with only the accident and emergency meet it. 735 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 736

T7. [136863] Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Norman Lamb: I thank my hon. Friend for that The implications of HIV go well beyond health issues question. The Government take the development of alone, yet the Government have so far refused to implement talking therapies extremely seriously and I can confirm a new, cross-departmental HIV strategy. The Scottish that I met Lord Layard yesterday, together with and Welsh Governments have implemented their own representatives of the NHS Commissioning Board. There such strategies, but 95% of people in the UK living with will be a central team and we are absolutely determined HIV reside in England. Will the Secretary of State to keep driving this approach forward, as there is real commit to discussing this issue with his Cabinet colleagues, evidence of results. particularly those in the Department for Work and Pensions and the Department for Education? Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph carries an article on dementia, Norman Lamb: I take extremely seriously the point including a quote from a GP who says that it is not that the hon. Lady makes. It seems to make more sense useful to give an early diagnosis when there are no drug to be part of a comprehensive, integrated sexual health or care needs. Does the Minister agree that that GP, like strategy, which the Government are planning and which many others, fails to realise that for pre-senile dementias will be published very soon. Services tend to be delivered in particular, early diagnosis allows planning and allows together in the same units, so it makes sense to have a families to understand the confusion created by altered single strategy to deal with all those issues. personalities, behaviour, emotional responses and language skills? T10. [136866] Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): In the light of widespread representations from Mr Hunt: I know that the hon. Lady spoke very constituents about the proposals for the centralisation movingly in the debate on dementia last week and I of pathology services, will my right hon. Friend the wholeheartedly agree with her. The medicines available Secretary of State consider the clinical concerns very for people with dementia do not help everyone, but we carefully before any such changes are sanctioned? do not know that until we try them. By diagnosing only 42% of people with dementia, as is currently the case, we are denying nearly two thirds of dementia sufferers Dr Poulter: I thank my hon. Friend for that question the chance to see whether they could benefit from those and he is right to highlight the fact that any decisions medicines and, as she rightly says, the chance to plan about service reconfigurations must be clinically led, as their care, which could mean that they could live at was outlined in the Government’s tests for any service home for much longer. reconfiguration. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The T8. [136864] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): all-party group on cancer is delighted that the one and Last week, the Secretary of State refused my request to five-year cancer survival indicators have been included meet a small group of local GPs, hospital doctors and in the CCG outcome indicator set. We have campaigned residents who are opposed to the closure of accident for that in the belief that it will drive forward earlier and emergency and maternity at Lewisham hospital, diagnosis, as the Secretary of State knows. Can he yet in his former role he seemed very happy to trade clarify how CCGs will be held to account through that hundreds of texts with Rupert Murdoch’s lobbyists indicator set? For example, what action will be taken on about the purchase of BSkyB by News Corp. Why is it underperforming CCGs? one rule for Rupert Murdoch’s lobbyists and another for doctors in Lewisham? Mr Hunt: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his campaigning on cancer issues through the all-party Mr Hunt: I think that the hon. Lady might perhaps group. The NHS Commissioning Board is held to account read Lord Leveson’s conclusions before she starts hurling through the mandate, which clearly states that we must about allegations, many of which came from her side of make tangible progress towards having the lowest mortality the House, that were later shown to be totally false. rates in Europe for cancer and a number of other major With respect to the decision on Lewisham hospital, I diseases. I will expect the board to clamp down hard on thought that we had a very useful meeting last night CCGs who fail to deliver on what needs to happen for with the south London MPs who are directly affected. them to deliver on that promise. She understands that the process put into law by her party and her Government means that I cannot reopen Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Cancer Research the entire consultation and start seeing some groups UK has expressed deep concern about the fragmentation without seeing all groups that are affected. That is why I of cancer services and the climate of uncertainty that am limiting the discussions I have with colleagues, but makes it harder to improve them due to the Government’s I think that that is the right thing to do. NHS reorganisation. I appreciate that that is not the fault of the Secretary of State, but he has the power to Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): The evidence do something about it. Will he listen to Cancer Research is compelling that improved access to talking therapies UK and stop the fragmentation of cancer services? for children and adults makes a huge difference to their mental health. Will the Minister therefore assure me Mr Hunt: Of course, I understand the concerns of and the House that the NHS Commissioning Board Cancer Research, and I know that the hon. Gentleman will have the necessary dedicated teams to ensure that understands the personal tragedy that cancer can cause. the adult improving access to psychological therapies— The change in the clinical networks is happening because IAPT—programme is delivered and that the new children’s we want them to cover dementia, which we were talking programme is, too? about earlier, mental health services and maternity and 737 Oral Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 738 paediatric services. It is right that they should do so, but Mr Hunt: The biggest safeguard is the fact that the I want to make absolutely sure that as we go through Government have made it one of our key priorities to the restructuring the benefits of the cancer clinical improve mortality rates for cancer to the best in Europe. networks remain as strong as ever. That means we are putting in a huge amount; for example, we are investing £450 million in early diagnosis. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Will my There are many other measures, which shows how right hon. Friend look at the east midlands cancer seriously we take it. drugs fund? While I welcome the cancer drugs fund enormously, the east midlands will yet again underspend, Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): My leaving some of my constituents paying for their own 92-year-old constituent, Ron Lewin, was referred for treatment because they have been refused funding. Will minor oral surgery. He was eventually written to by the my right hon. Friend please get his Department to specialist, who said that waiting lists were very long and investigate why? that assessment appointments were available in 18 weeks, but that they did offer an independent service if he Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend has mentioned the issue to wished to be seen earlier. Independent obviously means me before, and I am happy to look into it in detail for paying to jump the queue. Is that how the Government her. propose to cut waiting lists?

Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): How will the Secretary of State assess the effect of the cancer drugs Dr Poulter: It is a decision for front-line medical fund on cancer survival rates? professionals to outline when treatment should or should not be given. Treatment must always be given on the basis of clinical need, so I am sure the hon. Lady will be Mr Hunt: It will be very easy to look at the number of feeding that message back to local commissioners. There lives saved. We will be able to see the impact of the fund, is an opportunity for people to appeal against decisions because it only started in 2010. when they are not made on the basis of clinical need, as that is clearly not the right thing and not in the interests Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Kettering has of patients. the sixth fastest household growth rate in England, and accident and emergency admissions to Kettering general hospital are now at 12% year on year. Will the Secretary Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Will my of State ensure that the NHS funding formula reflects right hon. Friend’s Department make an assessment of the very latest population estimates? the effects on local air quality and public health of a potential third runway at Heathrow, and will he submit Mr Hunt: NHS funds are independently decided by those findings to the Davies commission on airport the NHS Commissioning Board, and I know that is a capacity? key concern of the board. I visited Kettering hospital, so I know that it is a very busy hospital coping well in Mr Hunt: I am very happy to look into whether that difficult circumstances. is an area where my Department should take responsibility.

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): Penalties on readmission rates were introduced Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): My to improve clinical practice, but patients suffering from constituent, Elaine Catterick, has had a serious operation sickle cell and thalassaemia in my constituency and at the James Cook hospital on Teesside cancelled twice elsewhere cause hospitals to be fined for readmission, in three months—once with just a few hours’ notice. even though it is often in the patient’s best clinical She has also learned that there are twice-daily meetings interest. Will the Minister once again reconsider exempting at the hospital to decide whose operation should be sickle cell and thalassaemia from the penalty? cancelled next, as staff struggle to cope with spending cuts. I hope that is not what the Secretary of State wanted from his reforms, so what is he going to do Dr Poulter: The hon. Lady is right to raise concerns about it? about specific groups. The direction of travel in reducing readmission rates has to be the right thing; far too many patients were bouncing back to hospital when they Mr Hunt: All cancelled operations are a concern. The would have been better looked after in the community. number of cancelled operations was about 50% higher The longer term answer for some conditions, such as as a proportion of all operations under the previous heart disease and possibly sickle cell and thalassaemia, Government, but no operation should be cancelled, and may be year-of-care tariffs, which we are looking at very we will continue to do what we can to bring down the closely, as is the NHS Commissioning Board. numbers.

Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): The Secretary Several hon. Members rose— of State just referred to the new strategic clinical networks. As the cancer networks are merged with them, what safeguards are there to stem the loss of expertise in Mr Speaker: Order. My apologies to colleagues whom cancer and what specialist support will be available to I could not accommodate but, as usual with Health CCGs trying to achieve the targets we have heard questions, demand massively outstrips supply. about? 739 15 JANUARY 2013 Supermarket Pricing Information 740

Supermarket Pricing Information sort of pricing does not put us off because it looks good, because it is an essential, or because we just Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order cannot work it out while pushing a trolley with kids in No. 23) tow. While the supermarkets have a huge amount of 12.35 pm information on us, most shoppers are still left shopping Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I beg around in a way that we would recognise from 20 years to move, ago. Use of price comparison websites is growing fast, but those sites do not cover all supermarkets, all products That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require supermarkets to or all stores. It is not an equal battle. As a GCSE publish pricing data on all the goods they sell in a standardised, accessible, online format suitable to enable comprehensive comparison economics student would tell us, markets only work of the price of supermarket goods by retailer, store and product, well when everyone has the same level of information and to enable independent analysis of pricing; and for connected about what they are buying. It is not surprising that purposes. numerous studies have highlighted what is going on, My aim is simple: to enable supermarket shoppers, and I have tried to summarise some of them on my which is most people in the country, to compare the website. Briefly, last year, The Grocer magazine found prices of goods, product by product, store by store, that in Tesco’s “Big Price Drop” campaign, for every company by company through an app on their smartphone, two items that dropped in price, three went up. On laptop or personal computer. None of the information 7 January, mySupermarket.co.uk highlighted current that I want shoppers to have is secret. It is all publicly problems, and I shall give the House two examples. available. The problem is that, to get our hands on it, we Sainsbury’s Goodfellas pizza—two for £4.50. Not only would need an army of volunteers to go into every was that product cheaper in two other retailers where store, every day, to check the prices of every product. the customer would have had to buy only one, but the That is possible in theory, but it is quite impossible in offer price was 16% higher than the price in Sainsbury’s practice. most of last year. Innocent Smoothie—two for £5 in The spread of smart devices, public familiarity with Asda and Waitrose, but cheaper in two other retailers apps, and the development of a community of innovative and an offer price 20p higher than the average in those app designers capable of handling data analysis in shops over the past 12 months, a price which had sophisticated ways has made things possible that could fluctuated between £2.79 and £2.30. not be done a few years ago. I think that this is the time On Friday my office looked at a basket of 12 items in to harness that technology in the interests of consumers. a Sainsbury Local in Bethnal Green and the Sainsbury If we do, we can even things up just a bit between the superstore in Whitechapel. Across the basket of groceries supermarket giants and the consumer. the local store was 10% more expensive, with bananas Barely a day goes by without someone in the House 42%, carrots 59% and broccoli 49% more expensive. I saying that times are tough for hard-working families. accept that most people must know that local stores are Real wages have fallen for many. Family budgets have more expensive, but do they know how much, and is it been squeezed. For many, the weekly supermarket bill— not worrying that the mark-up is so great on fresh fruit about 16% of family spending on average, but much and vegetables? bigger for many low-income families—is one of the The picture is clear. It is almost impossible to get largest single parts of family spending. No one has comparable and reliable information about prices across money to waste. Shoppers want to know that they are all supermarkets and all products. It is hard to be sure getting the best value for money for their hard-won when a price promotion is a bargain and when it is a pounds. rip-off. It is difficult to get the facts we need to question We want to know which supermarket genuinely has why prices vary so much from store to store or week by the best prices. We want to know how much extra we week. All these data are held on central supermarket IT will pay if we go to the small branch—the local, the systems. If the data were made available, online and in express—rather than a superstore of the same company. real time, innovative entrepreneurs would quickly produce We do not want to be lured in by attractive headline apps that would not only compare prices but would, promotions, only to be ripped off once we are inside the automatically and online, police such misleading deals store. We want an easy way to work out the difference in and shed a light on store-by-store pricing policies. cost between vegetables, some of which are bagged, I think those same entrepreneurs would focus on some of which are loose and some of which are sold areas that currently see little competition but which are confusingly in different quantities. The truth is that no expensive, such as gluten-free foods. They may link one can be sure that they are getting the best deal or the pricing data to other data on organic food, farming best information on any of those things today. practices, sustainability and local sourcing, for shoppers The major supermarkets are quick to say how competitive who want to combine value for money and their other the grocery market is. It is true that there are 10 major values. I stress to the House again that I am talking only companies competing on the high street, but that does about data that are, in principle, a matter of public not mean that the market always works for consumers. record. I am not asking supermarkets to reveal any The supermarkets have a huge advantage over the rest commercially confidential data. But making public and of us. They amass data about our shopping habits—I really available real information about real prices would am not talking about the data they have on each of us be enough to throw the spotlight on value for money individually, but about the information they have on and misleading discounts. our collective shopping habits. They know what shoppers In November the Office of Fair Trading published a buy, how much and how often. They know what sort of report on discount pricing policies and promoted a price promotions attract us. They know when and what voluntary code of practice. In my view, the previous 741 Supermarket Pricing Information 15 JANUARY 2013 742

Government, of whom I was part, often found themselves Constitutional Law between the rock of statutory regulation, burdensome [Relevant document: the Sixth Report of the Scottish and heavy handed, and the hard place of voluntary Affairs Committee, on The Referendum on Separation guidance, usually shot full of holes. The current Government for Scotland: The proposed Section 30 Order—Can a are often in the same place. The simple beauty of my player also be the referee?, HC 863.] proposal is that a minor regulation could make the whole panoply of statutory regulation and investigation by the OFT largely redundant. Price transparency, backed 12.45 pm by efficient data analysis, would simply drive sharp The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): practice and misleading pricing out of the marketplace. I beg to move, So far the supermarkets have been reluctant to say That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) this is a bad idea. How could they? In principle, the data Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 22 October 2012, are public already. The issues they raise are mainly be approved. financial and technical. So I challenge the supermarkets I am grateful that we have longer to debate the order today: you put up your technical experts and your than would usually be the case. This reflects the interest systems managers, and I will assemble an independent that hon. and right hon. Members have shown in the team of experts, put them together, and let us see how issue and the time they have spent scrutinising it, not hard it would be. least in the Scottish Affairs Committee, whose report is I have limited my proposal to the 10 supermarkets a very important contribution to the parliamentary that would be covered by the current Groceries Code process. Adjudicator Bill, but many independent convenience On 15 October 2012, the Prime Minister, the First stores may wish to join. Most use propriety software for Minister, the Deputy First Minister and I signed an their pricing and tills, and once an industry standard is agreement on behalf of our respective Governments established, it would be simple for that software to be that will, if the order is approved by this House and the upgraded and to give those stores the chance to join. other place, allow a legal, fair and decisive referendum My proposal has gained the support of the consumer to take place on Scottish independence. We will face the organisation Which?, comparison websites, and the chief most important political choice that people have taken executive of the Open Data Institute. Open data is an in Scotland in more than 300 years. unstoppable movement. As a Cabinet member I made Ordnance Survey mapping data freely available, to the Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): What benefit of the public and innovative businesses alike. is the role of the Electoral Commission? Can the Scottish This Government have supported the Open Data Institute Government override it or is it mandatory for them to for public data. Over time, what is good enough for the accept what it says? public sector will become a demand on the private sector. As smartphones and consumer apps grow in Michael Moore: I applaud the hon. Gentleman’s early availability and popularity, the supermarkets will not be intervention. He will not be surprised to know that he able to ask, “Why should we do this?” They will have to has anticipated slightly an issue that I will turn to at explain why they have not done it. reasonable length, with the House’s permission, later in Unless I am very lucky, this Bill may not become law, my speech. Put simply, we expect the same standards to but I predict that this is only the start of a movement for apply to the Scottish Parliament as apply here—no transparent pricing and online information that will greater, no less. grow and grow. I commend the Bill to the House. This process began with the Scottish National party’s Question put and agreed to. victory in the May 2011 Scottish parliamentary elections and its manifesto pledge to hold an independence Ordered, referendum. From the very beginning, we recognised That Mr John Denham, Dr Alan Whitehead, Mr Nick the political mandate that the SNP had secured for a Raynsford, Paul Blomfield, Lorely Burt, Jonathan Edwards, referendum. However, as I set out in the House just over Justin Tomlinson and Caroline Lucas present the Bill. a year ago, the Scotland Act 1998 is very clear that the Mr John Denham accordingly presented the Bill. Scottish Parliament cannot legislate on matters reserved Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on to this Parliament. That includes the constitution and, Friday 1 February, and to be printed (Bill 119). specifically, the Union of the kingdoms of Scotland and England. That is why we published a consultation paper on 10 January 2012, which set out the different ways to deliver a legal referendum. Shortly afterwards, the Scottish Government set out their own consultation. Our paper sought views on how to facilitate a legal, fair and decisive referendum. We set out the available legislative options and stated that our preferred option was to provide the Scottish Parliament with the legal competence to legislate itself. This received the overwhelming support of those responding to our consultation. More than 70% of respondents agreed that the Scottish Parliament should be given that power. Throughout the discussions with the Scottish Government, we stressed that there should also be a single question to deal decisively with 743 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 744

[Michael Moore] On the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds participating in the referendum, respondents to our consultation were the issue of independence. Three quarters of respondents divided. I will return to that issue later. to our consultation agreed. In our consultation paper, we set out our view that the Electoral Commission, the Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will independent body responsible for overseeing referendums the Secretary of State confirm that, if this order goes to in the UK, should be responsible for this referendum. the Scottish Parliament and if that Parliament agrees to That is the same position as for any other referendum. allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum, the The UK Government’s position was supported by matter will no longer need to come back to this House 86% of respondents. Indeed, that was a point that the or to the other place? Scottish Government accepted fairly quickly. They moved from their initial proposal to establish a separate Scottish Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman highlights an body to oversee the poll to a position of accepting that important point. He is right to suggest that, if this the Electoral Commission was the right body to oversee House and the other place agree this order and it is the referendum. passed, that will transfer responsibility for the referendum We also sought views on timing and on the franchise. totally to the Scottish Parliament. On timing, we sought views on when the referendum Following the respective consultations, a period of should be held. Many people supported our view that it discussions between Scotland’s two Governments led to should be held sooner rather than later. Indeed, the the signing of the Edinburgh agreement on 15 October. order before us today provides an end date for the I will return to the other important elements of that referendum, but it does not prevent it from being held agreement shortly, but first I want to deal with the order sooner. It will be for the Scottish Government and the itself. Scottish Parliament to set the referendum date. The order is made under section 30(2) and (4) of the On the franchise, we asked for views on who should Scotland Act 1998. It inserts a new paragraph 5A into be entitled to vote in the referendum. part 1 of schedule 5 to the Act. Part 1 provides, among other things, that the Union of the kingdoms of Scotland Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Will the right and England is reserved to the UK Parliament. New hon. Gentleman tell us whether there are any provisions paragraph 5A will ensure that the reservation does not in the Bill to take account of the views of the many apply to a referendum on independence, provided that Scottish people who live in other countries—especially the referendum meets the requirements set out. Those the Scottish population in Corby, who are absolutely requirements are for a single-question referendum, on convinced that we are stronger and better together? Will the subject of independence, to be held before the end he take account of their views? of 2014, and without any other referendum provided for by an Act of the Scottish Parliament being held on the same day. Michael Moore: It is important that people in all The order also makes provision in respect of public parts of the United Kingdom make it clear to all of us referendum broadcasts and free mailshots, which would living in Scotland that they value the Union and the otherwise be outside the legislative competence of the United Kingdom. I respect the fact that there is a strong Scottish Parliament. Under the Political Parties, Elections and rich diaspora of Scots all over the United Kingdom and Referendums Act 2000—PPERA, as we know it — and, indeed, all over the world. Having looked carefully referendum campaign broadcasts can be made only by at the options for the franchise, we took a straightforward or on behalf of a designated campaign organisation. decision—we agreed wholeheartedly with the Scottish The order applies that provision of PPERA to an Government’s view on this—that the same franchise independence referendum. That means that the restriction should apply to the referendum as applied to the Scottish in PPERA on who can make referendum campaign Parliament elections that gave the Scottish National broadcasts can apply to the independence referendum. party its mandate in that Parliament. That keeps it simple, straightforward and fair, and that is the basis on The agreement in 2006 between the Secretary of State which we will proceed. for Culture, Media and Sport and the BBC requires the BBC to broadcast referendum campaign broadcasts, as defined by PPERA. The provisions of the order mean Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): that the BBC will have the same obligations and Does my right hon. Friend not agree that it is an responsibilities in respect of independence referendum anomaly that a Frenchman living in Edinburgh can campaign broadcasts as it would have in respect of any vote on Scottish independence when a Scot living in PPERA referendum broadcasts. Under PPERA, each London cannot do so? designated campaign organisation can send a mailshot to every elector or household without being required to Michael Moore: I think that that is a reasonably pay the postage costs. That service is provided by Royal easily understood anomaly. The French person, the EU Mail and the costs are recovered from the Consolidated national, who has made a commitment to living in Fund. The order applies those provisions in PPERA to Scotland is entitled to vote in a referendum there, just as an independence referendum. It specifically provides they would be in the Scottish parliamentary elections. It that the cost to the Royal Mail of providing the service is important that we show consistency on that front. I will be recovered from Scottish Ministers. accept, however, that there is a range of opinion on this The section 30 order that we are debating today will matter, and my hon. Friend has made his own point enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate for a legal clearly. referendum. The Scottish Parliament has already considered 745 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 746 the order and approved it unanimously. If the order is The Government made it clear when they brought approved by both Houses of this Parliament, it will forward the regulations to provide for those referendums enable the Scottish Government to introduce a referendum that discussions were ongoing with the Electoral Bill setting out the wording of the question, the date of Commission on the wording of the question. Revised the referendum and the rules of the campaign for the regulations were tabled on 8 January and the Electoral Scottish Parliament to consider. This devolution of Commission has confirmed that it is content with the power will ensure that the details of the referendum revised wording. process itself are made in Scotland, in the Scottish Under the terms of the Edinburgh agreement, it will Parliament. That is a principle of great importance to be for the Scottish Government to respond to the the devolution settlement. Furthermore, the approach advice of the Electoral Commission. The Scottish here respects another key feature of devolution—namely, Government have committed to putting before the that once a matter is passed to the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Parliament their response to the Electoral it is for that Parliament to determine the details of the Commission’s recommendations. That means that the legislation that follows. Scottish Government will be held to account by the However, our agreement does not just make the public and Parliament alike for how they respond to referendum legal and respect the devolution settlement. that advice. All Opposition leaders in the Scottish It also sets out the conditions that are necessary and Parliament have stated their intention to abide by the that have been agreed between the UK and Scottish Electoral Commission’s judgment in this case. To do Governments for the referendum to be fair and decisive. otherwise would be a significant step, for which there In this context, it is important to consider the memorandum would be a political price. of agreement alongside the order. The agreement is a As I have set out, both Governments recognise that statement of political intent by Scotland’s two Governments. the referendum process must be seen to be fair by both It commits us jointly to an approach to, and the delivery sides of the campaign. That applies across the process, of, the independence referendum which will ensure that but particularly to the financing of the campaign. As the proceedings are fair and that the outcome is decisive. part of the Edinburgh agreement, the Scottish Government With permission, Mr Speaker, I will therefore briefly committed to consulting the two campaign organisations describe that broader agreement. for their views before proposing spending limits for the At the heart of any fair referendum must lie a set of referendum campaign to the Scottish Parliament. rules and processes that have the support of both sets of The agreement ensures that the independent Electoral protagonists. For the outcome to be legitimate, both Commission will provide the Scottish Government with sides of the argument must have faith in all aspects of advice on the appropriate spending limits for the two the referendum. That is particularly true when we are campaigns and the parties. That is what has happened considering the future of our nation. The agreement in previous referendums, such as the 2011 referendum therefore sets out the commitment of both Governments in Wales on further powers for the Welsh Assembly. In to the normal rules and procedures that govern referendums that referendum, the Electoral Commission recommended in the UK, as contained in PPERA. A core part of the that the spending limit for designated campaign PPERA process is the central role of the Electoral organisations should be set by reference to the expenditure Commission. The two Governments have agreed that limits that apply to elections to the relevant legislature. the Electoral Commission must review the proposed In its response to both Governments’ consultation referendum question, and that its report will be laid documents, the Electoral Commission provided its view before the Scottish Parliament. That process is under that the model remains appropriate for the Scottish way. Since PPERA came into force, there have been independence referendum. The Electoral Commission three referendums held under that legislation. has met the parties represented in the Scottish Parliament to seek their views on the finance arrangements. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Does the Secretary When the Scottish Government set out their final of State agree that, if the Scottish Government were to proposals for financing the referendum campaign in the disagree with the Electoral Commission on what form referendum Bill, they must set themselves aside from the question should take, that position would be open their own campaigning interests and recognise that to a legal challenge? their approach is being watched by all of Scotland, and indeed by the international community. That is a point that the Deputy First Minister recognised when she Michael Moore: I think that there would be a price to rightly said that the poll must satisfy the highest pay for that. If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, I international standards. All people must believe that shall return to that issue shortly. there is a fair process and, therefore, a fair result. The three referendums held under the auspices of the Both Governments agree that the basis for the franchise Electoral Commission have been: the north-east regional will be that for the Scottish Parliament elections—that assembly referendum in 2004; the referendum in Wales is, those UK or EU citizens who are resident in Scotland. in 2011 on further devolution; and the referendum on That is set out in the Edinburgh agreement. In addition, the voting system for the UK Parliament, also held in the Scottish Government propose to give 16 and 17-year- 2011. In all three cases, the Electoral Commission reviewed olds the right to vote. I recognise and respect that there the Government’s proposed question and provided its are differing views on that issue in the House. My party, advice. The Government responded by revising the the Liberal Democrat party, supports the principle of questions in line with that advice. Of course, in the past, 16 and 17-year-olds participating in all elections. Our some Members on the SNP Benches have referred to coalition partners do not, however. Views on both sides the wording of the proposed question for referendums of the argument can be found on both sides of the on local council tax. Chamber. 747 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 748

[Michael Moore] Government are alert to that issue and it is incumbent on them to bring forward appropriate proposals with In devolving the power to hold the referendum, however, the necessary safeguards. we respect that this is a matter that should be debated and determined by the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does my where the Scottish Government and Parliament have right hon. Friend agree that although the whole House the power to hold referendums and elections already, agrees that the Scottish Parliament should make the they have chosen to allow some 16 and 17-year-olds to decisions about the conduct of the referendum, matters vote. However, the Scottish Parliament’s decision with such as the franchise ought also to be discussed fully in respect to health board and crofting commission elections this House, as we are doing now and will do for some in Scotland has set no precedent for any elections for considerable time today, because the outcome of the which the UK Government are responsible. I fully referendum affects not only Scotland, but the whole expect that the Scottish Government’s proposals will be United Kingdom? debated robustly in the Scottish Parliament. However, let me be clear that it will be for the Scottish Government Michael Moore: My hon. Friend has made two important to make the case for this proposal in the Scottish and linked points. On the first issue, nobody is suggesting Parliament and to deal with the issues that arise. Let me for a minute that people in this House cannot offer an be equally clear that any decision taken by the Scottish opinion about whether it is right or wrong for 16 and Parliament for the referendum will not affect the voting 17-year-olds to vote. She is right that this afternoon is a age for parliamentary and local government elections in good opportunity for people to make the case one way the United Kingdom. That remains the responsibility or the other. On the second point, she is also right that of this Parliament alone to determine. what happens in Scotland affects the whole United Kingdom. A huge amount is at stake in this big debate. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Although people south of the border will not vote in Lesmahagow) (Lab): Have there been any practical the referendum, it is important that their views are discussions between the UK Government and the Scottish included in the public debate. I am sure that they will be. Government about the ability to implement this measure Before I took the interventions, I made the point that ahead of the referendum, given that there has been when 16 and 17-year-olds have been allowed to vote in much talk of the inability to do so because of the state admittedly smaller elections in Scotland, it has had no of the electoral register? ramifications for the decisions that are made in this place, and neither will this decision. However, the debate Michael Moore: That issue was discussed during the on the rights and wrongs of 16 and 17-year-olds voting negotiations leading up to the Edinburgh agreement. will remain live in politics and I see no worry about However, as we made plain in the agreement and as I that. have repeated this afternoon, as we are devolving that power, it is for the Scottish Government to bring forward Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I thank the their proposals. That will require legislation and that Secretary of State for giving way yet again. Before we legislation will be properly scrutinised by all of us and, move on from the franchise, will he advise the House in particular, by MSPs. That process is yet to get under whether there has been any progress in the talks on way. allowing members of the Scottish armed forces who are, through no fault of their own, serving elsewhere in the Jim McGovern: When I have visited schools in Dundee UK or around the world to vote in the referendum? recently, it has been pointed out to me that it would be ridiculous if 16 and 17-year-olds were allowed to vote Michael Moore: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady, who on the future of the country, but could not buy a packet has made that point strongly not only on the Scottish of sparklers on Guy Fawkes night. Affairs Committee, but in other debates. I recognise that it is a sensitive issue. We must ensure that, as would Michael Moore: That is a classic example of the debate be the case in any other referendum or election, those in that rages over whether 16 and 17-year-olds should vote the armed forces who have a connection to Scotland are in elections. I take it from that intervention that the aware of what it will take for them to vote in the hon. Gentleman is not a supporter. However, this is a referendum. There is a range of complexities in that, matter for the Scottish Parliament. but the Scottish Government are aware of the issue and understand it. When they publish the legislation, there Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I thank the will be plenty of time for people in the Scottish Parliament, Secretary of State for giving way; he is being very and those of us here who take an interest in the matter, generous. We, as campaigners, will be contacting minors to offer their views on the details. to seek their views and discuss the issues. Has he had any discussions with the Scottish Government about Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): May the rules and regulations that will apply to parties I point out to the Secretary of State that it is not only engaging with people who are not yet adults? members of the armed forces who will be affected, but their wives and husbands? For example, people who are Michael Moore: The hon. Lady hits on an important, based in Catterick may have been moved there from sensitive and practical point that must be considered Motherwell. carefully in any legislation on this issue that is introduced in the Scottish Parliament. Until the legislation is published Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid and people can consider its detail, her point cannot be point that reinforces the views of his colleagues, and I properly examined. I am confident that the Scottish recognise that this matter is important to Members on 749 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 750 all sides of the House. It will now be an issue for the Michael Moore: I am sure we can offer Hansard the Scottish Parliament to consider, and I am confident appropriate assistance should it be sought. This is a that in the political debate across Scotland the role of point on which I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is the armed forces and voting will be properly considered. slightly curious that after 80 years of existence—give or take—the Scottish National party is not rushing to get Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): The this over and done with straightaway. One would have exchanges of the last moment or two have raised a thought it would want to do it as quickly as possible, broader question. Once responsibilities are handed to and it would certainly be in Scotland’s best interest to the Scottish Parliament, what will be the role of this resolve the issue as quickly as possible. However, it will place in monitoring the issue and ensuring—so far as be a matter for the Scottish Government and then the we can—that the objectives of fairness and decisiveness Scottish Parliament to consider. are properly maintained? Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab) rose— Michael Moore: My right hon. and learned Friend highlights an important issue and principle. In the order Michael Moore: I did say finally, but I must give way and the political agreement that sits alongside it, we set to the former shadow Secretary of State. out what we believe should happen when the referendum process is resolved in the Scottish Parliament. As I said Ann McKechin: I understand there is some suggestion earlier, we are observing and honouring the principles that the Committees in the Scottish Parliament that will of devolution so that when a matter is devolved from deal with the Bills on both the franchise and the referendum this place to the Scottish Parliament, it becomes that will be subject to a truncated timetable programme. Has Parliament’s responsibility, including all the details and the Secretary of State had any discussions with the everything that goes with it. We are not, however, Scottish Government about that? Given the importance disfranchised from the political debate. Plenty of MSPs of the referendum for our whole country, does he agree offered views on this process long before it went anywhere it is important that the Scottish Parliament’s Committees near the Scottish Parliament, and I am confident that have appropriate time to consider the issues in great lots of MPs will contribute to the debate long after it detail and ensure they are satisfactorily answered? has left this place, and, if it is passed, the other place as well. Michael Moore: The hon. Lady makes an important point. I do not believe it is appropriate for us to discuss Fiona O’Donnell: Will the Secretary of State confirm that directly with the Scottish Government; it is for the whether, as well as actively encouraging members of the Scottish Parliament to decide how it determines its own armed forces from Scotland to register to vote, people businesses. Former Members of that Parliament who will be encouraged to register their sons and daughters are in this House today may wish to pick up on the hon. who are 16 and 17-years-old? This issue will affect their Lady’s point. I absolutely agree, however, with her lives as well. central point that we should consider the issue properly and seriously. Symbolically, we are taking longer than Michael Moore: The hon. Lady adds to the points we would normally to consider a statutory instrument made by her hon. Friends. I am confident that all these because of the significance of the order. People would issues will be debated in the Scottish Parliament, and I look askance if parliamentary processes elsewhere were encourage her, and others, to make such representations cut short in the course of the debate, but the issue is for directly. We are not stymied in this debate simply because the Scottish Parliament to determine. We all have colleagues we have passed the legal process—assuming that we do. in that Parliament who, I am sure, will make the hon. I do not wish to take the House for granted in that Lady’s point very vigorously. respect. Let me turn to one issue that has attracted some comment, particularly from the Scottish Government. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Is that what The concluding paragraph of the Edinburgh agreement the SNP thinks? contains a commitment by both Governments to hold a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. There have Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman asks me to give been some creative interpretations of this paragraph in views on the role of the SNP, but I am confident that, if recent times, and I want to take the opportunity to they catch your eye, Mr Speaker, SNP Members will restate its clear and obvious meaning. have an opportunity to contribute to the debate and set out their own views a little later. Paragraph 30 reads: “The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments are committed, Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab) through the Memorandum of Understanding between them and rose— others, to working together on matters of mutual interest and to the principles of good communication and mutual respect. The two Governments have reached this agreement in that spirit. They Michael Moore: Finally, if I may. look forward to a referendum that is legal and fair producing a decisive and respected outcome. The two Governments are committed Jim Sheridan: May I probe the Secretary of State on to continue to work together constructively in the light of the the timing of the referendum? He may recall the separatist outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of slogan, “Scotland free by 2003”, yet when it gets the Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.” chance in 2012, the SNP says that it is not ready until That means that the two Governments will conduct 2014. Has he picked up any rationale for why that is the the referendum on the same constructive terms as they case, or is it just the general public view that they are work today, and that if the referendum follows the path just big fearties? set out in the order and agreement, its outcome will be 751 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 752

[Michael Moore] the autumn of 2014 in choosing to remain part of the United Kingdom. We are indeed better together. In the decisive. Regardless of the result, that constructive meantime, I commend the order to the House. relationship should continue as we move forward. That is good practice and common sense. It does not mean, however, that in the event of a yes vote, the remaining 1.19 pm UK would facilitate Scotland’s every wish—no more Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): This is indeed than an independent Scotland would unquestioningly an important day in the life of our nation and this facilitate the wishes of the remaining UK. Inevitably, Parliament. Rarely do we have an opportunity to debate when there are two separate countries, there are two sets an issue as fundamental as the future of our country. of interests—sometimes mutual, sometimes at odds. Let me be clear at the outset that we welcome the That is the case in the UK’s relationships with its closest order that is before the House today. This House has allies today, and we honour that principle, and so it witnessed significant discussions on the future of nations, always will be between separate, sovereign states. most recently the future of Scotland and Wales in the The Edinburgh agreement, particularly paragraph 30, Union and the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. is a statement of our determination to hold a referendum Today’s discussion is no less significant, for two reasons. that is legal, fair and decisive. It does not—and cannot— First, it contemplates the possibility of an end to the pre-empt the implications of that vote, and it is important 300-year-old Union with Scotland. That is important to that everyone is clear about that. emphasise, not just for those of us in the Chamber who are from Scotland, but for people who live in the rest of Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) the United Kingdom but believe in a United Kingdom (SNP): The Secretary of State talks about what might with Scotland as a crucial part—I give due recognition happen if the result of the referendum is yes. Whose to the good people of Corby for their enthusiasm for interests will he be representing post the yes vote? that commitment. Secondly, today’s discussion is significant because it is a novel way of settling the issue. Parliament Michael Moore: I am absolutely confident that Scotland is being invited not to legislate or make a decision, but will vote to stay in the United Kingdom. I am committed to delegate the power, under certain strict conditions, to to doing what is in the best interests of Scotland, the Scottish Parliament, ultimately—we should never regardless of the outcome, as I said on the radio yesterday forget this—to allow the Scottish people to make that morning. decision. Scotland’s future within the UK will be the most The agreement puts it beyond doubt that, in the important decision that we as Scots take in our lifetime. words of the First Minister and the Secretary of State, Facilitating a legal, fair and decisive referendum is the referendum will be “made in Scotland”. It can be critical. That is why we consulted on this issue, why argued that this is not just an example of the success of both Governments have spent many hours discussing the United Kingdom’s democracy, but evidence of the and negotiating the process, and why we seek the support strength of the Scottish Parliament—a devolved institution of the House today to approve this order. argued for and established by, of course, a Labour Government. The principle that the referendum should Debating this order in the House today marks an be controlled by the Scottish Parliament is important important step as we move from discussions on process in commanding respect from all sides. However, it is to the substance of the great debate. It is now essential particularly significant in ensuring that after the referendum that the referendum decision is focused on determining the Scottish Government cannot suggest that there is whether Scotland chooses to remain an integral part of any ambiguity about the process or the result. The the most successful partnership of nations the world choice before the people of Scotland is straightforward: has ever seen; to remain part of a family of nations that whether to leave the United Kingdom or to continue in works in the interests of all; or whether it wishes to a partnership of equals in a Union with England, Wales leave and go it alone. That decision should not be taken and Northern Ireland. lightly; it should be taken after examining all the facts. As I said at the outset, we on this side of the House support the order. We support it because, if followed, Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Does the Secretary the principles contained in it, as well as in the memorandum of State think it fair that the Scottish Government can of agreement, would provide for a referendum that met be both the referee and a player in a referendum? the test that we set at the start—namely that, as the Secretary of State said, it should be fair, legal and Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman and his fellow decisive. Together, the agreement and the order provide Committee members have written important reports on that all three conditions can be met if all parties in the this subject and highlighted the dangers in the process. referendum hold to their spirit and their letter. It is clear As I made clear in my earlier remarks—and this, I that we now have the opportunity to put before the think, is the tenor of the contributions we may anticipate people of Scotland the question of separation, and that this afternoon—the Scottish Government will act in decision will bind us all. As the agreement says, the setting the rules and pushing them through Parliament referendum will deliver a decisive expression of the on behalf of all Scots and both sides of the argument. It views of the people of Scotland, along with a result that is important that they do so in a way that is not fair to everyone will respect and must respect. one side and unfair to the other. This debate is important, because endless constitutional I strongly believe that, with the support of colleagues uncertainty is bad for all interests in Scotland, not least across the House, across Scotland and across the whole those of us who would rather spend our time, energy of the United Kingdom, fellow Scots will join me in and efforts dealing with the reality of life for hundreds 753 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 754 of thousands of Scots, if not millions, who need us to many of us who were prepared to work with others—and focus on defending and pursuing their interests. Labour who demonstrated that we could do so—did, in fact, spent a generation arguing for devolution, against the work in the best interests of Scotland. protests of the party opposite—or one of them, I The right hon. Gentleman also allows me to make the should say; I am in a generous mood towards the point—which I was just about to make—that we should Secretary of State today. heed the advice of Scotland’s first First Minister, Donald Dewar, who said in 1998: Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): And against the party on the Benches behind us. “The…decade must not be one long embittering fight over further constitutional change. For me, the question now is what we do with our Parliament, not what we do to it.” Margaret Curran: Indeed. Other parties opposed devolution, as my right hon. Friend points out from a In these challenging economic times, perhaps we should sedentary position. We argued for devolution because it focus our minds on the powers of the Scottish Parliament was the best way to deliver social justice and economic and question how they are being exercised at the moment. progress and because it commanded the support of the That, too, should occupy our energies. vast majority of the Scottish people. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): My hon. Friend Mr MacNeil: I wonder if the hon. Lady can tell us has just mentioned the late, great Donald Dewar, who whether the ends of social justice were advanced last said that the decade from 1998 should not be a decade week in the Commons when the majority of Scottish of stifling the Scottish Parliament, but since the SNP MPs voted against welfare reforms that are being foisted got a majority in that Parliament, has not its whole on Scotland by MPs from the rest of the UK. How does ethos indeed been stifled? that further the ends of social justice and why does she support the right of a Tory Government to govern Margaret Curran: I thank my hon. Friend for that Scotland and do exactly that? Why is she not an point. As a number of hon. Members present know, I independence supporter? served in the Scottish Parliament for 12 years. I was part of many of the exciting developments and changes it Margaret Curran: For many years I have argued with inaugurated, but it is with deep disappointment that I the SNP, which wants to say that the problem facing now see a Parliament that does not seem to have the Scotland is the English. I say that the problem facing proper opportunity to scrutinise the Executive who are Scotland at the moment is the Tories and the SNP. The part of that arrangement and who also seem to be SNP is imposing college cuts, and making Scotland one significantly failing the Scottish people. Although I see of the nations of the United Kingdom with the highest constitutional change as a means to an end, I have never increases in unemployment. The hon. Gentleman would seen it as an end in itself. It would serve the Scottish be well fit to look to his own party to see the damage it people well if the Scottish Government focused on the is inflicting in Scotland, instead of always trying to hide work of serving the Scottish people and their interests, behind the blanket of independence—[Interruption.]— rather than just for ever furthering the goal of constitutional although I thank him for that encouragement to energise change. this debate. The order we are debating today demonstrates that John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): This is devolution has been a success. It has empowered Scots something I raised in a previous speech on Scotland, and given our nation a new sense of confidence. With it, but today we have once again heard the chuntering we have modernised and changed Britain and the way from the SNP, whose Members are sat on the Benches we govern ourselves. We on this side of the House will beside me—the bullying tactics that have been used in take the opportunity that the referendum presents us the Scottish Parliament to stop proper legislation going with to make the argument for a prosperous Scotland through. Can we trust these people? within a United Kingdom, backed up by a strong devolution settlement. We will be arguing against the nationalists, who would stop devolution in its tracks Margaret Curran: I thank my hon. Friend for that just 15 years after we set out on this journey and after it contribution. It encourages me to look forward to the has been so successful. At the end of this process, that substance of the debate on the referendum, when the means that perhaps we can finally heed the advice of Scottish people will give not only their verdict on whether Scotland’s first First Minister. they think their interests lie best in the United Kingdom, but ultimately their view of the SNP Government, who, Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Does the hon. rather than addressing their interests, are for ever saying Lady think that the SNP might be better prepared for that everything can be solved through the prism of the situation we are in today if it had taken any part in independence, without ever presenting a substantial the reform process that has delivered devolution and argument for why that would be the case. home rule to date? Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): The hon. Margaret Curran: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Lady touches on an important point about the Scottish for his intervention, which affords me the opportunity Parliament legislating in the interests of Scotland. Does to draw attention to the fact that those who opposed she agree that the Scotland Act 2012 will devolve devolution—perhaps most strongly at some points—were considerable additional powers over many fiscal matters those in the Scottish National party, which never to the Scottish Parliament, and that it is surely better to participated on any multi-party basis to give Scotland concentrate on using those powers rather than constantly the constitutional agreement that we now have. In fact, trying to change the goal posts constitutionally? 755 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 756

Margaret Curran: The hon. Gentleman makes a prospect of Scots voting to stay within the United significant point. I have always believed in a strong Kingdom, because I believe that there is a strong likelihood Scotland within the United Kingdom, and I have for of that—although I would never be complacent and many years believed that devolution was significant in would always respect the views of the Scottish people. helping to govern Scotland effectively. The passing of As I said in answer to the hon. Member for Milton the 2012 Act was another stage in that process, which Keynes South (Iain Stewart), I absolutely believe that offers the Scottish people the opportunity to effectively devolution is vital to the interests of Scotland and vital govern themselves, but still have the advantage of the to the interests of the United Kingdom. We have always partnership that is the United Kingdom. I firmly believe said that devolution is a process, and that time and that the prospects for separation offered by the Scottish circumstance will dictate future interests. As the hon. National party do not work in the best interests of the Gentleman may or may not know, Johann Lamont, our Scottish people, and in fact signify that the SNP has leader of the Labour party in Scotland, has set up a failed to listen to them. Since its inception, they have devolution commission. Our test in that devolution believed that the Union damages Scotland. Its view has commission will not be pre-set, as some nationalists never changed and never evolved. We are all calling for would have us do because they have already decided a positive debate, and it is disappointing to see so little what should happen. Our views will be determined by of that coming from those Benches this afternoon. the interests of the people of Scotland, and what serves their interests best. Sir Menzies Campbell: I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being very generous. Her Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Does my hon. felicitous reference to Donald Dewar, a friend and Friend agree that the fundamental fault line in Scottish colleague of several of us still in the House today, has politics at the moment is between those who support struck a chord certainly with me and I am sure with separation from the rest of the United Kingdom and others. Arising from what she has just said, and referring those who want to stay part of the United Kingdom, back to something she said earlier, what does she make and that any talk about the process of devolution and of the suggestion that were the question to be answered so on in the current context of discussing a referendum in the negative, that would not be the end of the matter on independence is actually a diversionary tactic by the so far as the Scottish National party was concerned, SNP to try to divert us from the fact that after 80 years and that if it had the opportunity it might seek, as early of preparation, it has zilch to say about the future of as was convenient, to institute yet another referendum, Scotland? thereby raising the possibility of what I think in Quebec is called the “neverendum”, of which the issue is the Margaret Curran: I thank my hon. Friend for that only one which dominates political discourse in Scotland? effective intervention. I will make reference to why some are urging that there should be a second question as I Margaret Curran: I thank the right hon. and learned progress. Gentleman—I am so pleased to have got parliamentary protocol right for once. This is one of the most disappointing elements of the debate so far. We have gone to great Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ lengths to create a process that will allow for a fair and Co-op): If I can take my hon. Friend back to the established result that should be observed by all participating intervention by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East parties. We have all said that we will respect the decision and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) from Plaid Cymru, is of the Scottish people, wherever we stand in this debate, the situation not entirely the reverse of what he suggests? and it is incumbent on the SNP to participate in that If people vote no in the referendum—against separation— and to not always say, irrespective of the result, that it there will be opportunities to develop devolution and will just come back again and again with a “neverendum”, the Scottish Parliament, but if people vote yes to allegedly. Perhaps in today’s debate the SNP will put on independence, then that is it. There will be no second record that they will absolutely respect the result of the thoughts—that will be once and for all and final. There referendum, now that we are past the starting blocks, should be no doubt whatsoever of the consequence of and absolutely guarantee that they will respect the such a vote. wishes of the Scottish people and not forever seek to usurp that decision, as certain comments have seemed Margaret Curran: I thank my hon. Friend for his to imply. intervention. May I be absolutely crystal clear? The way to stop devolution in Scotland, in its current form and Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) in any further developments, is to vote for separation. (PC): Based on what the hon. Lady has just said, if That is the way to end devolution. If people want to there is a no vote and Labour form the Government continue devolution and have a strong element of devolution down here in 2016 after the general election, is she in the partnership that is the United Kingdom, they saying that there will not be any further constitutional should vote against nationalist wishes in the referendum. change and a further Scotland Act, and that anyone The referendum offers us the opportunity to settle who wants to see progress on greater powers for Scotland the question decisively, once and for all. As my right will have to vote yes in 2014? hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, this is a fault line in Scottish politics—people Margaret Curran: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his either support partnership with the United Kingdom or contribution and I look forward to Labour forming a they support separation. We need to settle this once and Government here in 2016. We will introduce many pro for all, and then move away from the issue that keeps policies to the benefit of the people of Scotland and the Alex Salmond awake at night to the concerns that keep United Kingdom. Of course, we should look at the our constituents awake at night. 757 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 758

Let me turn to the order. As the Secretary of State The agreement between the UK and Scottish has outlined, article 3 removes the reservation of the Governments sets out: power to hold a referendum on the independence of “Both Governments agree on the importance of the referendum Scotland from the rest of the UK, and stipulates conditions being overseen in an impartial way by bodies that can command relating to the date of the poll and the nature of the the confidence of both sides of the campaign.” question. On this side of the House, we have argued That is an essential element of the agreement. It is not consistently for a poll that would come earlier than simply the oversight of the campaign, however, but how 2014, as has been indicated. As business leaders, civil the recommendations and views of the Electoral society and others have said, a vote conducted more Commission are treated by the Scottish Government than 18 months from now while the country continues that will determine whether the process is seen as impartial to face some of the most testing economic circumstances by the people of Scotland. If the SNP and the Scottish in a generation, adds, at the very minimum, to the Government wish to reassure all participants in the uncertainty faced by the Scottish people. referendum that they will conduct it properly, fairly and We would have sought an earlier poll. However, we equitably, with respect to all interests, they could easily understand the challenges faced by Government, the offer that reassurance by accepting the wording of the issues around the legislative timeline and the need to Electoral Commission. That would take us further down provide a full debate. As such, we hope that the period the road, so I hope that we can get an offer on that between now and the referendum itself will be used today. Ministers in the SNP Government have to set to full advantage. If I can make reference to a comment aside partisan advantage and approach the process with made by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North Scotland’s best interests, not their party’s, in mind, and (Ann McKechin, I hope that that timeline—the amount it would be reassuring if they could clarify the matter so of time involved—will ensure that the Scottish Parliament as not to be open to that charge. They could easily prove has the maximum time to debate and process this issue. that they are not open to it. It should also be used to ensure that Scots are provided The Electoral Commission’s role has to extend beyond with a robust and informed debate. So far, Scots are not the wording, however. We accept that the Electoral getting the information to which they are reasonably Management Board will deal with the practical entitled, even at this stage, by the party proposing arrangements for the referendum, but, to ensure the separation. There is still much more information to be probity of the process, the Scottish Government must given by those who are proposing separation. As the accept the rulings of the Electoral Commission, not just protagonists, it is reasonable to expect them to do that. on the wording but on the key issue of campaign Article 3 provides the clarity that the referendum will funding. The commission has made known its views on consist of a single question, as I made reference to in funding, but the Scottish Government are at odds with response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling. it. Clearly, we cannot end up in the ridiculous situation For a decision of this magnitude, we have always believed where the future of our country is determined by campaigns that this is the only way to provide absolute clarity for that have a sum total of 1p to spend per voter over the the Scottish people. A multi-question referendum, as entire regulated period. We are also concerned that the some on the nationalist Benches have argued for, would Scottish Government’s proposed limits would lead to not only have led to confusion but, as the Select Committee restrictions on the ability of third-party organisations, on Scottish Affairs has previously pointed out, would have such as trade unions and businesses, to participate fully been out of step with international precedents. It would in the campaign. As I have said, the length of the also have been detrimental had we included a question campaign offers the opportunity for a full and robust for which there was no clear offering, in terms of powers debate on Scotland’s future, and surely an informed and to the Scottish Parliament, and no grouping able to knowledgeable voter is worth more than a penny. make the case where there was no distinct proposal and no clarity about the details of what was being proposed. Although the order will formally pass the relevant powers to the Scottish Parliament, much of the detail Although the issue concerning the number of questions about how the referendum will proceed is contained in has been resolved, the order gives the Scottish Parliament the memorandum of agreement. The status of this the power to set the wording of the question. In this agreement has been the subject of some debate, however, area, we still have several concerns. First, we are not so will the Secretary of State or the Minister confirm confident that the question proposed by the Scottish the status of the agreement? Does it legally bind the Government provides those voting in the referendum parties concerned? If not, what legal advice have they with sufficient clarity. Secondly, in the light of that, we received regarding its status? We would have preferred are concerned that the First Minister and the Deputy the order to contain the level of detail in the memorandum, First Minister have not committed themselves to following but we understand the practical considerations involved, the recommendations of the independent, objective and, as I said at the outset, the agreement and order, if Electoral Commission. taken together and if followed in the spirit and the letter, provide the basis for a fair, legal and decisive Fiona O’Donnell: My hon. Friend is making a reasoned referendum. People in Scotland will not look kindly on and reasonable contribution. Hansard has sought any attempt to ignore or wilfully reinterpret the agreement clarification about whether SNP Members have today or on any party playing party politics with that. been described as “big fearties” or “big fairies”. Would Understandably, that would be seen as cynical and she like to express her opinion? disingenuous. Margaret Curran: Oh dear, dear, dear! Both. Can I With this order, we come one step closer to the 2014 say that? Would that be okay? I do understand it, referendum and an historic decision for the people of however, and perhaps I can offer clarification for people. Scotland. The tone and tenor of our debate have to On that basis, I would certainly say both. match the aspirations we have for it, so we have to move 759 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 760

[Margaret Curran] fortune. I hope that it will settle the issue for a generation—in the minds of most Scots I think that it will, if the away from the confusion and muddle that have characterised referendum is seen to be legal, fair and decisive—but, in too much of the discussion so far, grasp the nettle and the mind and the heart of a political nationalist, it deal with the difficult and challenging issues facing cannot be the final word on the matter. It will be a Scotland. That is what the Labour party is doing and never-ending referendum, given that the nationalist cat will continue to do. The debate cannot simply be an is out of the bag, and we have to be honest about that accountancy exercise; it must be a debate where we lay with the people of Scotland. The Scottish national out our alternative visions for the future of Scotland party has to be a bit more upfront with the people of and its people; and a debate that meets the aspirations Scotland to that effect as well. Either that, or the party of generations of Labour advocates of devolution. signs up to the words of the First Minister, when as If I may make further reference to Donald Dewar, let party leader several years ago he said that the referendum me say that introspection will not solve our problems, would, at the very least, settle the matter for a political and nor will a preoccupation with constitutional points generation. That would be in the best interests of Scotland, scoring. Responding to the needs of the Scottish people the body politic and the long-term economic prospects is what matters. In passing the order, we will pass of the country. This afternoon provides a very good another milestone towards a referendum in which the opportunity for SNP Members to subscribe to the Scottish people will have their say on whether to break words of their own leader, now First Minister of Scotland, with a partnership of 300 years or continue in the and to create a degree of calm and assuredness on the family of nations that is the United Kingdom. “Section 30” other side of the referendum, whatever the result. is a technical term and will not grab the imagination of too many Scots, but it will usher in a debate of enormous Fiona O’Donnell rose— magnitude in which the future of families, industries, services and much else will be at stake. Today is the Mr Kennedy: Iamhappytogivewaytomyold clarion call to get on with the substance of the issues sparring partner. and to determine the arguments that look to the future of that great country of Scotland. Fiona O’Donnell: We will be sparring again on Saturday 1.46 pm night in a Burns supper at Lochaber high school. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he thinks the Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): SNP turned down the offer from Wendy Alexander to I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute what I “bring it on” in the last term of the Scottish Parliament? anticipate to be briefly to this debate and in support of the opening Front-Bench speeches, which I think we have all appreciated, to a greater or lesser extent. Mr Kennedy: Over many years, the more I have heard from successive honourable and very good friends, such I begin with a personal, if perhaps philosophical, as those sitting on the SNP Benches right now, the less I point: I have never had any difficulty, during my career have sought to try to explain anything on behalf of or personal and private life, with the fundamental distinction political nationalists. That, I think, is altogether a bridge —a decent, honourable and everyday distinction—between too far. I have had a hard enough time over 30 years those of us who consider ourselves lifelong nationalistic trying to explain the Social Democrat party, the alliance, Scots and those who fundamentally consider themselves the Liberal Democrats, the meaning of federalism and political nationalists. One thing that surprises me, not all the rest of it, without taking on additional baggage altogether but somewhat, is the coyness at home from that is, I am glad to say, somebody else’s responsibility. within the nationalist camp about the debate—which will, one hopes, be given further impetus by the passing My second point relates to the issue of the nature of of the order—and how it will develop and what will the Scotland that we have now, and what that should happen, depending on the outcome of a referendum. tell us, as we pass this order, about the conduct of the That seems rather to miss the point. To a nationalistic debate—the factual and political debate that will ensue. Scot, putting the issue of independence fairly and squarely Like others who were in this Chamber at the time, I am in front of the electorate in a referendum and, in those reminded of the dog days of the Thatcher and then the time-honoured words, hoping for a legal, fair and decisive Major Administrations, who set their faces like flint outcome, is a perfectly legitimate, democratic and against any prospect of Scottish devolution, despite it honourable thing to do. being Equally, however, just as those of us who are still “the settled will of the Scottish people”, deeply committed to electoral reform—despite last year’s as the late great John Smith said, as evinced through massive setback in losing the referendum so decisively—are vote after vote in ballot box after ballot box over not going to give up our belief in electoral reform, so election after election the length and breadth of the political nationalists are not going to give up their country. The best we got was the charade of a travelling beliefs, and why should they? I have lifelong friends—not circus, courtesy of Michael Forsyth, called the Scottish active in politics—who have voted SNP come hell and Grand Committee, which would jet into Stornoway and high water. It might be high water now, but there have jet out after a few hours, having shed little in the way of been days of hell, as all political parties have experienced light on matters. In fact, as time went on and parts of over the decades. Who knows? Those days might come Scotland got more wise to what was happening, it round again. generated a well-organised local or regional demo at the The First Minister’s statement that the referendum expense of the Conservative Government on the issues would settle the issue for a generation was an interesting, of the day that were pertinent to the borders, the if perhaps unnecessary, one—something of a hostage to Western Isles, the highlands or wherever. 761 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 762

As that went on, and as all three political parties taking over control of constitutional affairs, have at the experienced that frustration, I think we were against very least—I put this as mildly as I can in the spirit of what we saw as the undemocratic control of Scotland unanimity that seems to be abroad across the Chamber and certainly the deeply unhealthy centralisation of this afternoon—given every impression, until caught power here in London. An awful lot of us voted yes out, of being willing to play somewhat fast and loose with enthusiasm for devolution and welcomed the with authenticity and the correct version of events. establishment of the Scottish Parliament, although—I That applies not just to their political competitors and will be honest—we never anticipated, particularly under opponents, but to the Scottish people. That sense will the voting system used, that one day a majority SNP not serve them well and it will not serve well the process Government would be returned. I congratulate SNP being taken on or the responsibility that goes with it Members on that historic breakthrough. We also never when the House passes this order. anticipated that a majority SNP Government in We have all had our years of political girn—first as Holyrood would display the self-same centralist tendencies far as Westminster itself is concerned and now from the that were the hallmark of the Thatcher and Major Government in Holyrood where Westminster is still Administrations. In particular, those who represented concerned. We are moving from that into the politics of parts of Scotland outside the central belt in the outlying fundamental choice. This is obviously a necessary, welcome parts of Scotland—I know that this feeling is shared by and historic order. Let me pay great tribute not only to some right hon. and hon. Members representing central the calm, constructive and measured way in which my belt constituencies, too, not least as far as local authorities right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has handled are concerned—did not anticipate or vote for a this matter on behalf of the coalition Government here, devolutionary process that was transferring over-centralised but to the modicum of maturity and reasonableness power in the south-east of England to over-centralised that he has brought to the debate both this afternoon power in Holyrood and across the central belt of Scotland. and over recent months. That characteristic contribution will well serve all of Scotland and the electoral democratic Sir Malcolm Bruce: Does my right hon. Friend share process, as the next year to 18 months of debate unfolds. the concern of my—and, I expect, his—constituents We are moving towards the politics of choice. As we about how effectively we will be policed in future with are trying to make life hard, at least for the Hansard the absence of a highland or Grampian constabulary reporters this afternoon, let me say that the responsibility and a police force centralised in the central belt? will transfer to Holyrood in due course—and a great responsibility it is—and most of all, in being entrusted Mr Kennedy: I know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I with that responsibility, Holyrood must not turn a must not— stooshie into a stramash. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. The right hon. Gentleman anticipates my comments. 1.58 pm While his resumé of historical progress towards this Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): It point has been fascinating, I need him to come back to is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Ross, the contents of the order rather than to venture into Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy); I agree with just wider political discussion. about everything he has said this afternoon. I shall not talk so much about the merits of the debate on Mr Kennedy: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. independence, but deal with some procedural matters. My central point, which is directly relevant to what I Before I do so, let me say two things. First, depending have been saying, is that, as has been pointed out, this on when the winding-up speeches occur, I may be order is historic, following on as it does from the 1988 absent from the Chamber. I shall try not to be, but I Act. Why? It is historic because it transfers and devolves apologise if I am. Secondly, I refer the House to my a fundamental, absolute and substantial power to Holyrood entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and to the Government of the day who have the majority not least to the fact that I am a director of Better in Holyrood. In so doing, we must look at the lessons of Together—a company formed for the purposes of fighting the past five years, because Holyrood—and, in particular, in the referendum campaign. In the light of what I have the SNP Government at Holyrood—having been handed to say, that may be of some relevance. this power, must handle it with a far greater sense of As I said, I do not want to talk about the merits of decentralisation and recognition of a Scotland that is the independence debate, as there will be plenty of much more diverse and not just centred on the interests opportunities for others to do so. I would like to talk, of one political party and one political source of power. however, about the central role of the Electoral Commission. That is why, I believe, the decision we seem to be As has been observed by both the right hon. Member reaching unanimously this evening is so pertinent. It for Ross, Skye and Lochaber and the right hon. and provides an important caveat that needs to go on the learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies record. Campbell), by virtue of passing the motion we are Let us look to how Holyrood is going to handle this passing all responsibility and authority from this House matter. Others, not least the hon. Member for Glasgow to the Scottish Parliament. There is absolutely nothing East (Margaret Curran) with her 12 years of experience wrong in that; I support that. In practice, the transfer is in the Scottish Parliament, are much better versed in not just to the Scottish Parliament but to the SNP, these matters than me. As an interested Scot looking at which runs the thing as a pretty tight ship—opposition recent developments in Holyrood, however, I would is not usually tolerated—and not just to the SNP, have to say that any fair-minded person cannot be that because, as we know, the SNP is very much run by one encouraged by what we have seen so far. Two senior individual. We need to be aware that that is what we are Ministers, the First Minister and his deputy who is now doing. 763 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 764

[Mr Alistair Darling] departure from the Electoral Commission’s advice, there would have to be stated reasons. That suggests that both I want to concentrate on the role of the Electoral parties were clear that the Electoral Commission’s role Commission. I agree with those Members who have was impartial, and that there was an assumption that said that it is important not only that the referendum is they would accept whatever it proposes. It is, therefore, conducted fairly but that it is seen and accepted to have disappointing that before the ink was dry on the signatures, been fairly conducted. Whatever the result, we want to we heard from senior members of the SNP that the be in a position where we accept that Scotland had its Electoral Commission could say what it wanted, but it say and reached its verdict, and then let us abide by would ultimately be the SNP’s call. That would be that. I know that the First Minister said that the referendum unfortunate, in relation to both the wording of the would settle the matter for a generation, but I think he question and the spending limits. meant that that would be the case if he won; if our side We have not had many referendums in this country, won, he might take a different view. The observations of but the turnout in them has been pretty poor: the the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber on average is just over 50%. It would be a great pity if the that point are absolutely right. biggest decision Scotland will ever make—whether to On the franchise, I do not object in principle to stay in the United Kingdom or to leave—was taken on a 16 and 17-year-olds having the vote, although if they low turnout. On both sides of the argument, one challenge are going to vote on this matter, they should be allowed will be to engage and hold the attention of the Scottish to vote on everything else; otherwise it is inconsistent. I public and enthuse people to come and vote in October cannot help but think that they would never have been 2014, which is one reason I hope we can concentrate on allowed anywhere near a ballot paper if the SNP had the merits of the respective arguments rather than anything not at some stage thought that they were more likely to else. Even in the Scottish elections, the average turnout vote for it, although the emerging evidence is that that is is just over 50%. The turnout in the alternative vote not necessarily so. Most of us know that whether someone referendum was only 42% —no surprise there, some who has just turned 18 is on the register rather depends might say. It is not exactly a harbinger of good things to on how diligent their mother and father were in getting come. By contrast, international referendums have a them on it. If those who are now 15 and 16 are to get on much higher turnout: 95% in Quebec in 2005. the register by the time the vote takes place, electoral registration officers in Scotland will have to do an awful If we are to engage people in Scotland, make the lot more than they do currently. It would be a real pity if referendum a success, and ensure a respectable turnout a lot of people who have newly turned 16 and 17 went so that there is a clear mandate, that involves spending to the polling station only to be told, “Sorry, you are some money. We cannot fight such campaigns on fresh not on the register.” air. Everybody in the Chamber knows that parties must spend money in elections, but the Scottish Government’s Other Members raised the issue of troops who are proposals will mean that the ability of both campaigns fighting elsewhere, and that position should be to spend money to engage people’s attention will be accommodated. I understand why the franchise must be severely curtailed. Even the Electoral Commission’s on the basis of that which we currently use to elect the proposals are quite a restriction, in comparison to what Scottish Parliament, although it is unfortunate that was allowed to be spent in the 1997 referendum. I hope someone who happens to live in Edinburgh and goes to that the Electoral Commission will continue reconsidering work in Brussels can get an overseas vote, but if they these matters and recognise that while nobody likes the happen to be sent to London, they cannot. That will idea of spending lots of money on a referendum campaign cause some ill feeling. The hon. Member for Corby —I am not arguing for so much money that we have (Andy Sawford) raised the point, but I think there are television adverts and American-style campaigning—the limits to what we can do. basics such as sending out leaflets to people and raising I want to touch on two issues in relation to the awareness of the issues are very important. Electoral Commission: the question itself; and the campaign spending limits. My view is that the Electoral Commission I understand well why the SNP has made proposals should act as the referee, and I hope that it will go for a that would severely curtail such spending—it looked at question that is clear and simply understood, without its position, and everybody else’s, and thought, “We are cant or tilt one way or another. There are those who say, in charge, why not move it to benefit us?” That really is “Everyone will know what they are voting on when they not satisfactory, however, especially when we bear in go to the polling station,” and perhaps they will, but in mind that the Scottish Government enter into the purdah that case there is no reason to have a slanted question. period, it would appear, only a month before the contest. Any impartial observer would say that the question We have only to look at what has been going on in the proposed by the Scottish Government is slanted. People last couple of years. The Scottish Government and the on both sides have mentioned the problem that the SNP SNP seem to be one and the same thing when it comes is the player and the referee at one and the same time, to the referendum—the entire effort of the Scottish which does not strike me as fair. I hope that it will Government is now being directed towards the referendum. accept what the Electoral Commission has to say on the I am afraid that I do not have confidence that the wording of the question. permanent secretary at the Scotland Office will have any control over the SNP. I suspect that, even if he gets It is noteworthy that the agreement signed by both round to raising the odd word of concern, he will be sides last October explicitly says that the UK Government told in no uncertain terms where to go. Public money is “regards the guidance of the Electoral Commission as a key being used on one side, and those of us on the other side consideration” who have to raise the money ourselves will find it very and goes on to say that the UK Government have so far difficult to compete, especially in the last four months followed that advice. It then says that in the event of a of the campaign. 765 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 766

Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Pete Wishart: Unlike the right hon. Gentleman, who —who, in Better Together terms, is my right hon. Friend— was busy spreading his anti-independence message, I for giving way. What he says about the current governance was here in the House last week to vote against the of Scotland, against the very long referendum backdrop, Conservative Government’s Welfare Benefits Up-rating is undoubtedly true. As he will probably know from the Bill. inside, and as I experienced from the outside during the The right hon. Gentleman may have heard the Secretary period of Prime Minister Blair’s leadership, in private of State speak on “The Politics Show” last Sunday discussion in which I tried in those days to encourage about the preparations being made by the UK Government him to go down the route of a referendum on a single and the amount of paper that would be generated in the currency and on what proved to be the dead duck of the form of what he confirmed would be pieces of Unionist proposed European constitution, in both cases he said propaganda effectively talking down any case for Scottish that he had taken advice from previous Labour Government independence. It is not the Scottish Government who figures who were still around and who remembered the are spending money on this; it is the UK Government. experience of the European referendum of years ago, and from the top of the civil service. Both sources of advice were unanimous on one point: in Westminster or Mr Darling: What irritated members of the SNP so Whitehall terms, a referendum would suspend the normal much last week was that wherever I went in Scotland business of government for about six months. Look at more and more questions were asked about them, and what the referendum under discussion has done already as that fact became more and more widely reported, it and how much worse it is liable to get if the timely really did rile them. warnings of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh As for what the UK Government are doing, they will South West (Mr Darling) are not heeded. be producing a series of papers on key matters such as European Union membership. The hon. Gentleman Mr Darling: I do not think that I was always party to cannot blame them for doing that, given that last autumn the advice taken by my friend and former colleague his own party got into a terrible muddle when it turned Tony Blair, but I do remember something of the discussions, out that the legal advice to the effect that nothing would and the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we are change did not even exist. If the hon. Gentleman will the best of friends as far as Better Together is concerned. not answer the question, who is to stop someone else We may have parted company on the single currency from answering it? 10 years ago, but we probably would not do so now. We Right at the end of the year—and it will not be until are all friends when it comes to the single currency, and the end of the year—the SNP will produce its own who knows? That may even include the nationalists. White Paper. There will be a degree of balance between the two sides, and people will be able to pick and choose Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): what they believe. Let me get my retaliation in first, and In respect of the single currency, I expect that my right say that if the SNP’s White Paper is anything like the hon. Friend, like me, welcomes the fact that the House other material that it has produced on this subject, it is full of sinners who have repented. could well be nominated for the Booker prize for fiction next year. Anyway, my basic point is that both campaigns Mr Darling: I fear that we are about to exhaust your must be funded adequately to ensure that there can be a patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, but my hon. Friend proper and thorough debate. is probably right. I support the order. This is the right thing to do: no I think that in a contest such as this, the Scottish one can have any quarrel with that. I just hope that as public will expect to see fair play. It would be unfortunate these matters are discussed in the Scottish Parliament, if, during those four months, the Scottish Government people will go out of their way to ensure that the were allowed to spend money here, there and everywhere, process is impartial, and that, in particular, the Electoral with Ministers making announcements—and it is, after Commission will be allowed to act as a genuine referee. all, our money—while those on the other side were It should make the calls. It will probably disappoint completely hamstrung. There are very strict restrictions both sides from time to time, but it is better for someone on campaigns, on other political parties, and, as was independent to hold the ring than for one of the participants pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow to do so. East (Margaret Curran), on trade unions, voluntary organisations, businesses and so on. I consider that to be unfortunate not because I want vast sums to be 2.13 pm spent—in some ways, it is best to keep expenditure as low as possible—but because I think that we need to Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I spend some money if we want a good turnout, and if we thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and my colleagues want to assuage people’s thirst for information. for allowing me to contribute to the debate. I feel that it is very difficult for someone who represents an English Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) constituency to speak about this subject. rose— I want briefly to discuss three questions. First, should there be a referendum at all? Secondly, what are the Mr Darling: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that criteria on which we should determine whether there that thirst for information has been evident, not least in should be a referendum? Thirdly—this takes up a point his constituency last week. If he would care to turn up raised in the powerful speech of the right hon. Member to one or two meetings, he would be asked quite a few for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling)—why do we questions which I think that he and his colleagues need need more investment in information, and, in particular, to answer. the spending of more money on media debates? 767 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 768

[Rory Stewart] That leads me to the question of why more money needs to be invested in the campaign, and why we need The question of whether there should be a referendum more media investigation. The answer is that the issue is a very big issue. Traditionally, we have not had proper of political institutions and Parliaments is difficult, and procedures for constitutional change in Britain. The perhaps even boring. It is not stuff that gets people reason this question is so important is that it matters excited. People voting in a referendum will find it hard not just in relation to Scotland, but in relation to every to follow all the issues without an enormous amount of constitutional change introduced in this country. Britain information. The Scottish National party is, of course, is the only advanced democracy left in the world—in right to say that some of the prophets of doom who fact, almost the only country left in the world—that suggest that independence will lead to the end of the does not formally distinguish between constitutional world are wrong. Independence will not lead to the end law and normal law, and tries to introduce constitutional of the world, and that is why information matters. change by means of simple majorities in Parliament. Independence will not cause the war between England That cannot be right. Every other country recognises and Scotland to start again. Those days of savagery, that the constitution exists to protect the people from murder, pillage and rape—what we saw in Cumbria for the Parliament: to protect them from us. We cannot, 400 years—will not return, because the world has changed. with shifting single majorities, set about changing the Nor will Scotland or England become a failed state. thing that protects the people, which is why every Scotland and England are extremely advanced, educated country from America to Italy to Greece to Spain countries, each with its world-class businesses, and although demands super-majorities, constitutional assemblies or both may undergo a process of difficulty and insecurity, referendums. they will subsequently be able to adjust and thrive. That The answer to the second question—why should we is not the problem; the problem is something much have a referendum about this issue?—is also extremely more difficult and much more elusive, which anyone important, and it too relates to what was said by the voting in a Scottish referendum needs to understand right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West. It involves but will not be able to understand unless we invest the very difficult issue of how political institutions such money in enabling the subject to be discussed as openly as this Parliament—this building—can define an entire as possible. That is the importance of political institutions. identity. A serious problem with some of the arguments It is a question of understanding, as we understand in advanced by supporters of the Scottish National party this House, why this place matters. Why does it matter is the way in which they have tried to trivialise the issue. that Scottish and English MPs sit together in a single They have tried to suggest that it does not really matter, Parliament? It matters because it provides the formal and that it is possible to get rid of a single Parliament process for mutual consideration. without anything really changing. My constituents are The SNP is again absolutely correct that, theoretically, often told that nothing will change, although 12,000 of there is nothing to stop Scotland being friendly to them registered as Scots in the census and more than England or England being friendly to Scotland in the 50% of telephone calls made from Carlisle are made to absence of a joint Parliament. There is no reason, people in Scotland. theoretically, why an English MP could not take into In fact, everything we know from every country in the account Scotland’s interests when thinking about their world suggests that the fundamental, defining feature of constituency in relation to common agricultural reform identity is a political institution. Much more than ethnicity, or agricultural subsidies, for instance. There is no reason, much more than culture, political institutions keep people theoretically, why a Scottish MP in an independent together, which is why we must have a referendum. Scotland could not think about England’s nuclear interests when considering the positioning of submarine bases. How do we know that? Well, I know it from my own In practice, however, it is the formal elements of this constituency, because Cumbria was itself a nation. It Chamber and our Committees and Government that was a kingdom. For 700 years, Cumbria and Northumbria force us to think about each other. ruled the kingdom that stretched from Edinburgh in the I sit on the Foreign Affairs Committee. It matters north to Sheffield in the south. Why does Cumbria not that the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw have an identity that crosses the border today? Because (Mr Roy) attends that Committee day in and day out, it is no longer a political entity. It no longer has a forcing the Foreign Office to answer questions that Parliament, and it no longer has a king. Why are French relate to Scotland. Instead of having to rely on good people in France different from French people in will, we have created institutions. Those institutions Switzerland? For one reason only: their Parliaments bring together much better people, too. split. Why has Britain grown apart from the Commonwealth countries to which it was so close 50 or 60 years ago? Because the political institutions split. Fiona O’Donnell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that good will is under threat, as well as the Scotland itself is another example. Why is it a nation? institutions? What would be the effect on his constituents That is a difficult question to answer. Scotland has had of an independent Scotland having a substantially lower Norwegians in the north, Welsh Celts around Strathclyde, corporation tax rate than England? Irish sea raiders, and Anglians coming into Lothian. The one thing that holds it together is the community of the realm. It is the political institution that creates the Rory Stewart: That is a good question, and there are nation. We in Cumbria know why that matters in Britain. many other similar questions we might ask. It is easy to Cumbria was a centre point of horror because two come up with hypothetical examples—such as that Parliaments and two kingdoms split apart. That border corporation tax point—of ways in which people could created the monstrosity. grow apart, but the key point is that, without a United 769 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 770

Kingdom, there will be no formal processes and incentives the order, as that is what we are discussing. I understand to think through such matters. At present, however, we that they may want to touch briefly on context or history, create the forums. but I do not want us to drift away from the issues before I am only three months married, so I hesitate to say us in this very important debate. I have tried to have a this as I do not know what on earth I am talking about, very light touch so far, because I loathe interrupting but it strikes me that formal institutions such as marriage Members. If Members are helpful, I will be eternally force people to discuss things, to compromise and to grateful; if not, I will, with regret, have to interrupt them. think in ways that we might not if that formal institution were not in place. [Interruption.] Perhaps I am wrong 2.25 pm about that, however. It was foolish of me to hold forth Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Today’s proceedings on the importance of that institution on the basis of are historic, and it is important to stress that, just three months of married life. notwithstanding the din and smoke of political battle The institution of the United Kingdom and its and some of the differences and questions aired today, Parliament has four key benefits. The first of them is they represent a triumph for democracy, for the democratic that it brings people together. Over more than 400 years process and for a democratic mandate. So far as I am it has brought together incredibly talented people, including aware, every political party in this House is in agreement people we barely recognise as being Scots or English, about the section 30 order, so I will focus on what we, as who would not have come together if we had not had a democrats, all share: respect for the electorate’s right to United Kingdom. It has brought together leaders of all determine their governance. There can be no greater our parties. We often forget that Scotland produced not democratic choice than whether a people wish their just the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath nation to determine for itself how it is to be governed. (Mr Brown), but also William Gladstone and, indeed, If we take half a step back from our party politics, we the crofter’s grandson, Harold Macmillan. Scotland can see that it is truly remarkable that, notwithstanding produced the ideas, the culture and the nation that our differences, we will today agree that it is for the challenges England and makes the United Kingdom Scottish Parliament to take forward the arrangements better. Scotland played an important part in creating for an independence referendum in 2014. That is remarkable not just our modern economic theory, but the ideas for two stand-out reasons. First, Scotland’s constitutional behind the national health service, and also all the progress has been a model of democratic, peaceful and richness of the culture of Britain. Because we have this civic politics. Secondly, the UK Government and Opposition United Kingdom and this shared institution of Parliament, are endorsing a legal, ordered and democratic path that as our different strengths alter over time, we contain can lead to Scotland becoming a sovereign state. Today’s that within a single unity. There was a time when agreement to transfer legal powers to the Scottish Scottish novels were better than English novels. There Parliament to make the arrangements for the biggest was a time when— decision in 300 years is a huge milestone. It says much Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I about the potential for further respect and equality absolutely understand that the hon. Gentleman is setting between the Governments, Parliaments and peoples of his major argument in context, and I was following these islands. what he was saying, but he is going on a little too long How have we reached the point of having this section 30 about the context. Please will he return to the subject of order? The Secretary of State rightly said the key is the order itself? undoubtedly the result of the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections. The majority of Members returned, including Rory Stewart: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I those of the Scottish National party and the Scottish will accelerate towards my conclusion, which involves Green Party and the independent MSP Margo MacDonald, returning to a very good point made by the right hon. support Scottish independence. The scale of the victory Member for Edinburgh South West. was unprecedented. The SNP won every single mainland All the issues I have raised are extremely complicated. constituency seat in the highlands, every single constituency They are issues of history, of culture and of identity. in Grampian and Tayside, and the majority of constituency They are issues of the ways in which borders work and seats in Fife, Lothian, Central, Glasgow and the west of parliamentary institutions function. In order for people Scotland. In the list vote, the SNP received more votes to be able to vote properly in a referendum and make than the three UK parties combined and was first in all that simple yes or no choice for which the SNP is but three constituencies in the whole of Scotland. The pushing, the debate needs to be widened much further. result was so overwhelming that the leaders of all three More money needs to be spent, and the media need to UK parties in the Scottish Parliament resigned. get involved. At present the media are far too worried Given the scale of the victory, the parliamentary about not being political on one side or the other and majority and the commitment to holding a referendum, are therefore not setting out the arguments and creating it would be unimaginable in a 21st century democracy the debate powerfully enough. We need to have a proper not to be able to proceed with a referendum. The UK debate because if an Englishman, a Scotsman and a Government clearly understood that the Scottish Welshman together is a joke, an Englishman or a Scotsman Government would go ahead with a referendum, and on their own is a tragedy. the Scottish Government understood the advantages of an unambiguous process beyond any potential legal Several hon. Members rose— challenge. This shared understanding led to the historic Edinburgh agreement between the Governments, which Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. was signed by the First Minister and the Prime Minister Before we proceed, it might be helpful if I explain my on 15 October 2012, and which has led to the section 30 approach to this debate. I expect Members to refer to order we expect will pass without Division today. 771 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 772

[Angus Robertson] I am particularly pleased that the agreement opens to the way to the franchise for 16 and 17-year-olds. That is The key is to understand that, as far as I am aware, not a new proposal; I was pleased to make my maiden everybody has signed up to the Edinburgh agreement. speech in the House in 2001 on this very subject. Many First, they have agreed that the referendum will be of us, from across the parties, have a long-standing made in Scotland, with the arrangements to be finalised commitment to 16 and 17-year-olds being able to vote, in the Scottish Parliament. The fact that the agreement and I am pleased that they will be able to do so. It is could be reached showed that the Governments can absolutely correct that every endeavour should be made work together, truly in everybody’s interest, notwithstanding to ensure that everybody who should be enfranchised is that we have different views on the potential outcome. able to cast their vote. The Scottish Parliament is the cockpit of the nation, Perhaps surprisingly, I would like to pay tribute to the and it is right that the issues of the franchise, the UK Government. I pay tribute to the Prime Minister, question, the referendum rules and the campaign spending the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of limits should be scrutinised and taken forward there. State in the Scotland Office and their colleagues across Nobody has yet criticised the fact that the Government government. Again perhaps surprisingly, I also pay who introduced the legislation for the devolution referendum tribute to the Labour Front-Bench team and the were in exactly the same situation as the Scottish Parliament Opposition, both here and in the Scottish Parliament. I will be after the section 30 order is passed. do so for the part they have all played in getting us this far. No doubt, the questions that have been raised will Jim McGovern: The issue of the referendum question be pursued after the section 30 order is passed, and that has been raised a couple of times. What will the SNP’s is a good thing. We should all be proud to have reached view, or that of the Scottish Government, be on the this stage, and the House will not be surprised that SNP Electoral Commission’s advice? Will that advice be Members express our thanks to the First Minister, the accepted or ignored? Deputy First Minister and Bruce Crawford MSP for the leading parts they have played in securing the Edinburgh Angus Robertson: The Scottish Government will be in agreement. exactly the same position as the UK Government are and have been in, including when the hon. Gentleman’s Soon, all the procedural issues flowing from the party was in government; the Scottish Government will section 30 order will be resolved in the Scottish Parliament listen to the advice of the Electoral Commission and and we can have the full debate on the proposition that the Scottish Parliament will then decide. The arrangement Scotland should again become a sovereign nation. is exactly how it was in the past when his party was in government. Margaret Curran: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his warm tribute; I did not anticipate saying that, but I Mr Darling: What the hon. Gentleman has said so far appreciate the tribute. May I ask him to clarify something? is absolutely right, but there is one further thing to say: As I understand it, the logic of what he is explaining is the UK Government have always followed the Electoral that it is now for the Scottish Parliament to answer the Commission’s advice. We would be interested to know issues of substance that have been raised today. However, whether the SNP is likely to take the same position. it is reasonable for me, as a Scottish person and as an elected Member representing Scots, to ask him whether Angus Robertson: I have no doubt that the right hon. he thinks it is reasonable to ask the Scottish Government Gentleman will make his voice heard and that when the now to clarify that they will respect and adhere to the section 30 order is passed for Scotland, he will make recommendation of the Electoral Commission. May I those views clear. If he had a problem with what is have a direct answer on that? being proposed, he would be opposing this evening’s section 30 order. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Jim McGovern: Will the SNP heed the advice? May I just remind all Members participating in this debate, including the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), that, tempting as it is to talk to each other, Angus Robertson: Of course the Scottish Government they are supposed to be addressing the entire Chamber will listen to the Electoral Commission’s advice. by addressing the Chair? That means not having one’s back to the Chair when speaking. Several hon. Members rose—

Angus Robertson: Now I will make progress. Angus Robertson: I am grateful for your advice, Madam The referendum will be carried out with Scottish Deputy Speaker. As I have said twice, I look forward to electoral professionals running the vote and announcing the Scottish Government having the process taken forward the result. That will be co-ordinated through the Electoral with the advice of the Electoral Commission. I am sure Management Board for Scotland and regulated by the that it will be listened to very closely, because we want Electoral Commission. The poll will, therefore, be beyond to ensure that the process continues. reproach. As the Edinburgh agreement says, it will “meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, Rory Stewart: I just wish to clarify the hon. Gentleman’s informed by consultation and independent expert advice.” statement. He is saying that his party intends to listen to The Electoral Commission is included in that. It is in the advice of the Electoral Commission but will not everybody’s interests that this referendum is carried out necessarily commit, at this moment, to taking and to the highest standards possible. following its advice. Is that correct—yes or no? 773 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 774

Angus Robertson: The position will be exactly the 2.39 pm same as that of the UK Government: the Scottish Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I welcome the Government will listen to the Electoral Commission’s debate and the order. I appreciated the tone of much of advice and the Scottish Parliament will then decide. what the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) had to say, as well as the fact that he acknowledged that Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): the order has all-party support. I would not have guaranteed Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 12 or 18 months ago that we would have reached this point, and so I want to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I believe that he—to some Angus Robertson: I will not give way again, as I have extent, he in particular—has led the process in a way already made the point three times on the same question. that has taken us from a situation that might have been confrontational to one that has been consensual. The Before having to reiterate the same answer for the fact that we have achieved that and that both Governments third time, I was making the point that the procedural have come together is something that history will record issues flowing from the section 30 order will be resolved as absolutely right. in the Scottish Parliament, and that is a good thing. We are, of course, passing the power and the legal That proposition that Scotland should be a sovereign right to hold the referendum to the Scottish Parliament, nation has a long and honourable tradition. In this which means, as the right hon. Member for Edinburgh House, it goes back to long before the permanent South West (Mr Darling) has pointed out, that we are parliamentary representation of the Scottish National effectively passing them to the First Minister and the party, which began in 1967, or indeed before the arrival Scottish National party. When my right hon. and learned of the first SNP MP in 1945. It is worth remembering Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies the role of Robert Cunninghame Graham, who was Campbell) asked earlier what influence this Parliament elected as a Liberal MP for North West Lanarkshire in would have over the process once the order had been 1886 and was commonly described as the first socialist passed and the Scottish Parliament had control, I must MP in this House. As the founder and first president of record that from a sedentary position the hon. Member the Scottish Labour party, and the first president of the for Moray said, “Zero.” We must recognise that there is Scottish National party, he consistently supported an indication that the SNP will seek to run the agenda independence. to get the best outcome for its purposes. Of course, I The call for a direct Scottish voice in the world has a completely accept that the SNP, as a political party for long tradition, too. It includes the attempts by the which independence is the driving force, wishes to do Scottish Trades Union Congress to secure Scottish that, but I warn SNP Members about how they conduct representation at the Versailles peace talks. For more themselves in that process. than 75 years, the SNP has sought to restore Scottish We all noted the responses to a number of interventions independence through the democratic process. I am on the hon. Member for Moray, which used what I shall extremely proud to follow a great many outstanding not call weasel words but what were certainly evasive democrats who furthered the cause of Scottish self- words and suggested that the SNP would listen to, but determination—a vision for all in Scotland, regardless not necessarily act on, the advice of the Electoral of where we come from. Sadly, some true giants of that Commission. Once we have passed the order, the SNP movement have recently passed away and will not be has the right to listen to and not act on that advice, but here for the referendum, including Jimmy Halliday, the if it does that the people of Scotland will rightly have a SNP chairman during the 1950s, who passed away just deep suspicion that they are not being given a fair and before Christmas. I also reflect on the recent passing of clear choice. I believe that that will go against the SNP’s Stephen Maxwell and that a few years ago of Professor interests, so my advice is that the more we all work to Sir Neil MacCormick. I would have wished them all to ensure that the referendum is fair and objective, the have been here to be a part of this great debate and more we will all be able to live with the result. decision that we will make in Scotland. We genuinely I echo what my right hon. Friend the Member for stand on the shoulders of giants: those who have made Skye, Lochaber and Ross— the case for self-government and given their time and effort to make progress through the democratic process. This Mr Kennedy: Ross, Skye and Lochaber. section 30 order is a testament to all who believe in the democratic process, democratic debate and the sovereignty of the people. Our challenge—this is for those on both Sir Malcolm Bruce: I had all the right places, but not sides of the referendum debate—is to ensure we do this in the right order—a bit like Morecombe and Wise’s in a way worthy of the proposition, the opposing case piano notes. My right hon. Friend’s point is valid: of and, most importantly, the electorate. course nationalists will continue to fight for Scottish independence, whatever the outcome of the referendum, In conclusion, I believe that the best future for the but I do not think that Scotland or the United Kingdom people of Scotland—a fairer, more economically successful, wants years of wrangling that prevents us from getting more outward-looking and internationally engaged on with the business of working together to deliver Scotland—will be secured by a yes vote in the referendum. results. It is in everybody’s interests, once we have taken I believe we can secure an improved relationship on the decision in 2014, that we should live with the these islands, based on mutual respect and the social consequences for at least a political generation. Indeed, union, which is not dependent on where Governments the SNP would need to reflect on changing its relationship and Parliaments sit. Let us pass this section 30 order with the United Kingdom. Now, it tries to discredit today so that we move on to debate that vision and so anything and everything done in the name of the United that the people make their decision. Kingdom in order to further the case for breaking the 775 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 776

[Sir Malcolm Bruce] be answered. As the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart)—speaking, I would guess, as link, but I believe there will come a point at which the much for the border as for Penrith—has rightly asserted, SNP might have to acknowledge that the people of these are not questions that can only be answered in Scotland, if they decide to remain in the United Kingdom, Scotland. will want their politicians to take a constructive rather Those questions must be answered in Scotland and than destructive role within the United Kingdom. outside it, which is why the debate must be conducted with recognition that this is not some parochial, internal Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): As an Ulster Scot matter for the future of Scotland. It affects how Scotland who has seen the strong relationship between Scotland might relate to the Bank of England, the European and Northern Ireland—the English and Welsh have Commission, NATO, the UN and any other multilateral such a relationship, too—may I ask the hon. Gentleman or international organisation. That is of course crucial, whether he feels it is important that the campaign and but the implications of the change for the rest of the referendum should focus on nuclear power, which affects UK are also important. Many people in Scotland will the whole United Kingdom, the MOD bases, the Army seek to balance those two questions when considering and sterling and monetary matters as well as fishing how to vote. rights, which affect people in Northern Ireland, and North sea oil? All those issues are important not just to Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I am a bit worried Scotland but to the whole of the United Kingdom. For that we might be saying that we will never debate the that reason, they should think very clearly in Scotland matter of Scottish independence in this Chamber again before the decision is made. once the section 30 order has been passed. Will we be allowed to debate and to elaborate on the arguments Sir Malcolm Bruce: I thank the hon. Gentleman for after the order has been passed? If we pass it today, will that intervention. I shall take note of your encouragement, that mean that Mr Speaker will never allow us to debate Madam Deputy Speaker, not to go into too much this matter, which is very important for our constitution, detail, but of course this is a decision that will be taken again? in Scotland and in which the whole United Kingdom has an interest. I think we have moved on. When the Sir Malcolm Bruce: I am sure that the House will Prime Minister intervened on this issue 12 months ago, have the opportunity to debate it and that the hon. he was initially criticised for interfering in Scottish Gentleman will ensure that we do. Of course, we will domestic affairs, but people quickly recognised that the not have the opportunity to amend or determine the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has a legitimate Bill on the referendum, which will be decided by the interest in the future of the United Kingdom and the Scottish Parliament. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention right to take part in the debate. It is equally true that the is relevant, as it is important that we recognise that the decision on the future of Scotland must be taken in deal struck in the Edinburgh agreement involved Scotland through a process made in Scotland, which is compromise from the UK Government and the Scottish why we are discussing the order today. Government. The UK Government have agreed to pass I and my political party have been almost obsessed substantial power to the Scottish Parliament to legislate with the progress of home rule towards federalism for for the referendum, but they have an agreement that it my whole lifetime. Indeed, if we look back across the will be on a single, stand-alone question and that the history of the Liberal party we can see that has been the Electoral Commission will at least be involved in the case for at least 100 years or even, in the case of Irish process. Those are all crucial issues and I reiterate my home rule, 150 years. We not only can but probably view that the Scottish Government discount the Electoral have bored people with a considerable amount of detail. Commission at their peril. They would be wise to take That detail proved extremely useful in the process of that point on board. We recognise that it is a compromise, developing the Scotland Bill through the constitutional but one made in the spirit of ensuring that we have a convention, and the work that we, the Labour party, the democratic vote that we can all accept and support. Greens, the trade unions, the Churches and the business This morning, my office took a call from a number of organisations did together was influenced by the fact Canadian parliamentarians who are anxious to meet that many of us had thought about it in considerable me to discuss the implications from their experience. I detail before we had the opportunity to implement it. have to point out that they are not in favour of breaking It remains a matter of some astonishment to me that up Canada, but are warning of the dangers of a sustained the Scottish National party, which lives for nothing threat to the continued existence of the United Kingdom other than Scottish independence, appears to have so rather than one that can be resolved by 2014. little command of the detail of what that would involve and is presenting it on the basis of unilateral, unfounded Mr MacNeil: Will the right hon. Gentleman give and unsupportable assertions. That is relevant in the way? context of the timescale on the back of the briefing notes, alluded to by the right hon. Member for Edinburgh Sir Malcolm Bruce: Reluctantly. South West, which point out that the Scottish Government propose to produce a White Paper next November. That is more than two years after they were elected and Mr MacNeil: Does the right hon. Gentleman think only a year before we are supposed to make a decision. Canadian independence has been a success? As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) pointed out when he intervened to make the case for Sir Malcolm Bruce: I think the hon. Gentleman is Northern Ireland, many fundamental questions must disingenuous, and knows perfectly well that the issue— 777 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 778

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. they were none the less able to come together to debate The right hon. Gentleman cannot say “disingenuous”, and agree the best way forward procedurally. That is although he may not agree with the hon. Member for important. Na h-Eileanan an Iar. May I also say that Canada is a bit wide of the order we are discussing? The Committee takes the view that it is right in principle that the practical details of the referendum be handled in the Scottish Parliament. Once our report Sir Malcolm Bruce: Within the order, Madam Deputy was published, I read comments from a member of the Speaker, and the reason why it is time limited, the point SNP, who said that it was grudging. Our report is not is that we need a referendum to take place within no grudging about the process; we believe it is right in more than two years—sooner would be better. We need principle that the procedural details be agreed in the to agree that the outcome will not lead to a succession Scottish Parliament, but with that power comes of subsequent referendums, which is what has bedevilled responsibility. The referendum will be Scotland’s shop Canada; I think that is the point the parliamentarians window on the world, so it has to be handled with pride are anxious to make. and probity. We have heard from SNP Members that it For those of us who believe in devolution, home rule will meet the gold standard for election conduct. I hope and ultimately federalism, this process can be a constructive that is true. As we said, we fear the worst but hope for step along the road. My instincts are that the people of the best. Scotland already recognise that independence looks like a step too far; there are too many questions incapable of We need to look at how agreement about the process being answered this side of 2014, least of all by the SNP will be handled in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish alone. In fact, the process has focused people’s minds on Affairs Committee may diverge from some of my colleagues the benefits of a strong sense of Scottish identity but on the role of the Electoral Commission. In line with real influence in the United Kingdom, which gives us a how the deal in Edinburgh was reached, we take the footprint in the world that an independent Scotland view that the best possible option is for the two campaigns would not have. themselves to come to agreement. It is better that the participants in the referendum reach agreement on all Many people in Scotland have articulated to me the procedures. If that fails—if it is not possible—it will recently the fact that they do not see that independence be appropriate for the Electoral Commission to play a adds anything to Scotland’s well developed sense of role. identity, but it would hugely diminish the reach and value that the United Kingdom gives the people of The title of our report asks “Can a player also be the Scotland. That is the reason why we are better together, referee?” We have some doubts about whether a player and my instincts tell me that a majority in Scotland have active on behalf of only one side can be trusted to set already decided that independence is not the way forward. fair rules for something as crucial as the referendum. If We cannot underestimate the campaign or what the consensus cannot be achieved, we want the impartial SNP will try to do to persuade people otherwise. We Electoral Commission to guide us as to what should be have to ensure that the end of the process brings a result decided. that we can all accept, and that if the people of Scotland vote for the United Kingdom the SNP will also accept The third and worst option—below consensus and that they have to recognise that the people of Scotland below the Electoral Commission: at the very bottom— voted for constructive engagement with the United would be the pursuit of factional advantage, which Kingdom, not continual disruption. could be described as the “aggregation of marginal gains” by the majority with control in the Scottish Parliament and who dread defeat. The point has already 2.52 pm been made that the Scottish Government control the Scottish Parliament and they are both the creatures of Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): the SNP. There is genuine fear that at every stage of the I speak to the report of the Scottish Affairs Committee process, they will seek to shave advantage, steal inches on the subject. I welcome the fact that we have reached and make marginal gains on the principle that mony a this stage and that we are having a referendum. The mickle maks a muckle—that is a test for Hansard. Committee makes clear our view that the Edinburgh agreement was reached by compromise and consensus It is important that scrutiny of the section 30 order between Scots at Westminster and Scots at Holyrood. and its implementation does not end with its passage We congratulate both teams. through the House. Those of us who are elected by It is noticeable that the agreement has been made by Scots in Scotland, such as my parliamentary colleagues Scots, not just between the two Parliaments. Much and me, must remember that we represent a larger congratulation has been given to the Secretary of State, number of Scots than Members elected to the Scottish but kind words are due to the Under-Secretary of State, Parliament, as turnout in our election was at least 10% the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale higher. If anybody can claim the right to speak on and Tweeddale (David Mundell), who also played a role behalf of Scots in Scotland it is us. in the exercise, and to their teams who constructively We began our investigation by seeking to clarify engaged throughout. In the same spirit, the Deputy where power lay for the determination of the rules of First Minister, the Business Manager of the Scottish the referendum. It is clear and, I think, universally Parliament and their teams should be congratulated accepted that as of now the Scottish Parliament does too. not have the power to hold a referendum. Until recently, The deal was reached by a process of collaboration, the Scottish Parliament was unwilling to accept that discussion and debate. It demonstrates that even though and prevaricated for a long time over calls for a second the two sides are far apart on the principle of separation, question, which it has now abandoned. That prevarication 779 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 780

[Mr Ian Davidson] for which many of us here have spent a long time fighting and arguing, we believe in principle that the and procrastination delayed both the introduction of Scottish Parliament is the appropriate place for those to the order and the legislation that will come under it, and occur. thus the referendum itself. We strongly believe that transferring those powers to It is now clear that the Scottish Government accept the Scottish Parliament makes it essential to deal with that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to the issue of losers’ consent. Those who lose the referendum run a referendum or to determine the rules, and that cannot turn round and say that they were cheated if they can only conduct a referendum to dissolve the they were responsible for drawing up the rules. There is United Kingdom if the necessary powers are granted to a heavy burden on the SNP to accept the fact that it them. When granting such powers, especially as we will cannot subsequently complain that the rules were drawn no longer have an influence on how they are conducted, up unfairly. It cannot cry, “We wus robbed” if it was we have a particular responsibility to satisfy ourselves responsible for drawing up those rules. With the transfer not only that the correct powers are being transferred of that power comes the responsibility to accept the but that they will be used in accordance with the agreement result, as we have said, for a generation or more. between the Governments, which is related to the order. The question of how those powers are exercised I welcome the fact that much is made in the order of brings me back to the aggregation of marginal gains, the role of the Electoral Commission. Guidelines are and the SNP’s intention to seek to gain partisan advantage set and there is no second question. There is a deadline from every aspect of the referendum process. It has for the length of time that the process can run. The been given the opportunity to twist the rules, and Scottish Parliament can and will be held to account, not unfortunately it is our expectation that that is what it only by MSPs but by the people of Scotland on the will try to do. It is difficult for any party in those extent to which it abides by those rules. The Committee circumstances to be both a player in the game and to try and I particularly welcome the fact that the statement to exercise the role of a neutral referee, which is why we accompanying the section 30 notice expressed the view are of the view that, ideally, consensus should be reached that arrangements should meet on the rules and regulations. Failing that, the role of a “the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, neutral referee is essential. informed by consultation and independent expert advice.” We are concerned about the timing of the referendum. That is an exceedingly high standard, and I hope that The Secretary of State said that the process was initiated the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament by the UK Government, who produced a timetable that will live up to it. demonstrated that it would be possible to hold a referendum in 2013. Even though Scottish Ministers in the Scottish Mr Donohoe: My hon. Friend is making a powerful Parliament have promoted a referendum on independence argument on the need for the Scottish Government to since 2007, they failed to introduce a referendum Bill in give some form of assurance to the Scottish people as the Scottish Parliament between 2007 and 2011. The to whether they will they accept the position on the Scottish Government were elected with an overall majority commission. in May 2011, but showed no interest in promoting their core policy until the UK Government issued a consultation Mr Davidson: I will come on to that, because we want document in January 2012. Since then, the Scottish to place on record our unanimous view as a Committee. Government have taken every possible opportunity to That is important, because the membership includes delay, and they intend to delay the referendum as long many people who disagree about many things, but there as possible in 2014. We very much welcome the fact that is unanimity on the fact that a referendum will take the UK Government insisted that the referendum could place, and we very much welcome the steps taken to not be delayed beyond the end of 2014, although we bring that about. We are of the view, and we wish to believe that that is unduly long, and that the referendum make this explicit, that the question of Scottish separation could and should be held much sooner. or independence is something that only the Scottish We see no reason for delaying the referendum until people can decide. Whatever their views, people in the the end of 2014, except for perceived partisan advantage. rest of the United Kingdom must be bound by that The referendum will be timed to take place after the decision. If, on the other hand, the Scottish people anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn, which is confirm that they wish to remain part of the United celebrated mainly because Scots slew large numbers of Kingdom, we echo the words of the First Minister, who English people, and after the Commonwealth games in said that the question of separation should be regarded Glasgow. The fact that those events will take place as firmly settled for a generation or more. before the referendum gives people the opportunity to Translating the question of “Made in Scotland” into celebrate the politics of identity and ethnicity. We thought the detail, we think that it is right that the legislation that Scotland in the 21st and 22nd century would be should be introduced in the Scottish Parliament, which looking forward, and would be progressive and positive. will determine the timing and the franchise, subject to Celebrating the murder of hundreds or thousands of the involvement of the Electoral Commission. The wording English people does not necessarily provide the best of the question and the administration of the referendum base on which to move forward. The timing of the will be decided by the Scottish Parliament. We do not referendum to celebrate that ancient battle gives entirely accept, as I said earlier, the self-serving argument made the wrong message to the world about the spirit motivating by the Scottish National party that the Scottish Parliament modern Scotland. already has those powers, and that in some way it and it Not only does the delay cause general inconvenience alone has the right to express a view. In the interests of to business and uncertainty but, in relation to the transparency and fairness, and in the interests of devolution, shipbuilding industry in my constituency, it puts a 781 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 782 substantial number of jobs at risk by conflating the lives and has temporarily gone down to England or timing of a referendum with the timing of major orders. abroad might not be able to do so. We think in principle We are about to produce a report that will show the that those who have strong ties, commitments and difficulties for the future of the shipyards caused by the loyalties to Scotland should be able to vote in the timing of the referendum. We hope that the Scottish Scottish referendum. We have expressed that view. In Parliament will take that into account and decide to line with the spirit of devolution, however, we want to bring the referendum forward so that it is held much leave it to the Scottish Parliament to determine exactly earlier than the end of 2014. We think that the delay has how that is handled. been imposed purely for partisan advantage, and we can see no other logical reason for it, and we condemn Jim McGovern: As my hon. Friend knows, I am also undue delay. a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Does he find it somewhat odd that the former England football John Robertson: My hon. Friend represents part of captain, Terry Butcher, will be entitled to vote in the the Clyde—I represent the other part—so he will know referendum, but Sir Alex Ferguson will not? how important it is to achieve stability when documents on the future prospects of our Navy are being drawn up as we speak. We need to make sure that the Clyde Mr Davidson: Indeed. These are anomalies and the produces the kind of ships in future that it has in the Scottish Parliament has to show its maturity by being past. The prevarication that we have seen will cause prepared to tackle them. There are no ideal answers in exactly the opposite result, and means that people are these circumstances. We must recognise that many of looking at other areas in which to build ships. these issues are difficult and I will return to some of them, if I can. Mr Davidson: I agree. My colleague is in a similar The first issue that we want to tackle is that of 16 and position to me, and that is why as a local constituency 17-year-olds. This is properly an issue for the Scottish Member I am enthusiastic about promoting the notion Parliament to handle. However, it is essential that the that, as referendum results will be counted constituency Scottish Parliament makes sure that if 16 and 17-year-olds by constituency, if my constituency votes to remain part are able to vote, they all are on the register. I recognise of the United Kingdom it should be allowed to do so, in that there will be organisational difficulties. Administratively, order that it can continue to gain shipbuilding orders the problems will be extreme. I am not entirely clear from the United Kingdom. We are prepared to enter how we are going to avoid a situation where, potentially, into an alliance with Orkney and Shetland so that we 14-year-olds are registered. can have oil and ships and those other matters. Whether or not other people wish to join that alliance I will leave Margaret Curran: I note that the Chair of the Scottish to them. [Interruption.] Well, we have received approaches Affairs Committee is reporting to the Chamber the from other constituencies, saying that home rule for findings of the Committee, which has gained much Govan and surrounding areas linked with the rest of respect for the work that it has undertaken. Does my the United Kingdom should be encouraged. I am confident hon. Friend share my disappointment that we are listening that, certainly in my constituency, we will have a no vote to him without the presence of any SNP Members to in the referendum. hear him? That is disrespectful to the Committee.

Mr Kennedy: The Chair of the Select Committee Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. makes an intriguing argument, which I have heard him With respect to the hon. Lady, it is entirely up to hon. make before. How does that sit alongside his argument Members to decide which speeches they listen to, if they that as good democrats the SNP must accept the result? are not waiting to speak. Members in the Chamber may draw their own conclusions, but it is not a matter of Mr Davidson: I will accept the result, and if the result order. is that my constituency votes to remain with the United Kingdom, it should be allowed to do so. What better Mr Davidson: Indeed, it is not a matter of order. It is way is there of accepting the result? If we vote to remain a matter of common decency, politeness and politics. with the United Kingdom and are allowed to do so, we Because the SNP does not control the Scottish Affairs would not contest the result in any way. I hope that has Committee, SNP Members have decided to truant. They the merit of clarity. absented themselves from the Committee earlier on and I return to my role as Chair of the Select Committee have said that they will not come back until the Committee and the question of the franchise. Properly, as I indicated Chair is replaced by someone whom they favour more. earlier, this is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to The Northern Ireland Assembly does not decide who determine, although we are uncomfortable with the fact should chair the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, that using the electoral register for local government the Welsh Assembly does not select the Chair of the means that EU citizens who are resident in Scotland but Welsh Affairs Committee, and we should not have a are not British citizens will not be able to vote in a situation where the Scottish Parliament selects the Chair British general election, but will be able to vote to break of the Scottish Affairs Committee. up the United Kingdom. We cannot have a situation where a party, which That is an anomaly with which we are not happy. It originally did not seek a place on the Scottish Affairs means, among other things, that somebody who arrived, Committee and got one only because the Conservative say, from eastern Europe a couple of weeks, virtually, party was prepared to give up a seat for it, then demands before the last registration date will be able to vote, that everything changes. That is regrettable but not whereas somebody who has lived in Scotland all their surprising. It calls into question the genuineness with 783 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 784

[Mr Davidson] I return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), who serves which the SNP is approaching the whole exercise in with distinction on the Scottish Affairs Committee. It is relation to the referendum. We have got responsibility true that not only will Terry Butcher be able to vote and and agreement on the section 30 notice. Now will come Alex Ferguson will not, but according to the Team GB the issue of implementation. Will it be done on a information that we have, of the 11 Scottish Olympic sectarian and partisan basis or will it be done in accordance medallists, only one is reported to be resident in Scotland. with the interests of Scotland as a whole? We wait with If people are good enough to represent Scotland at the interest. Olympics and win medals on Scotland’s behalf, one would have thought that the rules would be sufficiently John Robertson: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour flexible to allow them to participate in the referendum, across the water. Does he agree that perhaps the word and similarly with respect to members of the Scottish that is missing here and in many other places is “trust”? rugby team and members of the Scottish football team. For example, trust in what will be done in Edinburgh We can understand why those people might not want to where, as I have mentioned on several occasions, bullying be publicly known, given the recent results, but none the takes place. We see it in other areas. I am sorry to say less, if they are selected to represent the country, one that this is another example of the SNP’s bullying—in would have thought that they would at least be given the this case, of my hon. Friend. I am pleased to see him opportunity to vote on whether or not it should be stand up against that. It is important that we trust the independent. Scottish people and the Scottish Government. Does he All that has to be tackled by the Scottish Parliament. agree? In particular, we want the Scottish Parliament to look at the position of Scottish servicemen. Someone who Mr Davidson: We certainly have to trust the Scottish signs up for the services has no control over where they people. They are sensible enough to recognise that the are sent. There are three groups of service personnel—the SNP is unwilling to engage in debate. It is worth pointing valuable point was made earlier that this also applies to out that at the establishment of the Scottish Affairs their families—who have no control over where they are Committee, two SNP Members who had previously sent. been on the Committee refused to participate because they found themselves being ridiculed and their arguments The first group consists of those who are posted in destroyed at every turn. They had had enough so they Scotland. There will be no difficulty in them having a decided that they did not want to come back any more. vote, because they will be registered in Scotland. Secondly, That is understandable. Nobody likes being defeated in there are those who are sent to Germany or furth arguments, but it is rather petty and juvenile for them to of—outside—the UK. Under the normal rules, they take their ball and go home. will be expected to have a postal vote or an absentee vote to allow them to participate in the referendum. Thirdly, those who are posted to England, Wales or Mark Lazarowicz: It is surely also fair to suggest that Northern Ireland would usually be expected to register the total absence of SNP Members from this debate, where they are based, so they would not be on the local which has been attended by Members from all other government register in Scotland and, therefore, would parties in the House, indicates that we are entitled to not be entitled to vote. question how far the SNP will indeed listen to our view in the debate about the order when it goes to the I understand that all those who are in the UK armed Scottish Parliament. Does my hon. Friend agree that it services at present will, in future, be given the opportunity would be good if the SNP Members returned to the to transfer and join the Scottish defence forces, whether Chamber? they be the army, the air force or the navy. If they transfer, they might be asked to lay down their lives for Scotland. In such circumstances, it seems appropriate Mr Davidson: That is correct. How can they claim that they be given the opportunity to vote on whether that they are willing to take all points of view into or not a separate Scotland should be established. That account if they are not willing to hear them? They is perhaps the most clear example of the anomalies withdraw from the Select Committee and from the resulting from using the local government electoral Chamber when views are expressed that they do not register. We believe that the Scottish Government have like? I hope my colleagues will in future see it as a badge a responsibility to address those issues. of honour if their remarks result in the SNP departing from the Chamber. They are obviously raising points that SNP Members feel cannot be refuted. Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend was asked earlier Let me make progress. We do not want to spend our about the position of Sir Alex Ferguson, who, as far as I time obsessing about the SNP truanting when there are know, has made his home on a permanent basis, at least important topics to be discussed. The Committee raised for some years, in the Manchester area. Most Scottish the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds and the difficulties of troops who are posted abroad or elsewhere in the UK, making sure that they are on the register. The Scottish however, are posted for only a few years. Most of them Government and the SNP have had a long time to work intend to come back to and reside in Scotland. Is not through the procedures for that but have not done so the key point that, for the most part, people are not adequately. In our view it will not be sufficient for only leaving Scotland permanently but intend to return to attainers to be given the vote in the Scottish referendum— the UK in due course? Someone who works for the those who will attain majority during the period of the European Union in Brussels can still register as a Scottish register. It will be necessary to make sure, as promised, citizen and as an overseas voter for up to 15 years, but a that everyone who is 16 or 17 years old is on the register. Scottish soldier living in England cannot do so. 785 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 786

Mr Davidson: I think that there are excellent reasons given an assurance that they will accept what the Electoral why anybody who works for the EU in Brussels should Commission suggests, so I think we are entitled to be disqualified from voting on any subject, but that is a regret the fact that the SNP has not done so, too. different issue. My understanding is that those working for the EU in Brussels would be entitled to vote in Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The evidence Scotland in UK elections for up to 15 years. That also that the Committee took from opinion poll experts was applies to those who have retired to Spain and so on, that the question is not just biased, but ridiculously but are not on the local government register. biased, and that no self-respecting polling organisation Alex Ferguson plays a valuable role in my constituency would ever ask such a question. The Chairman of the as an old boy of Govan high school. I was going to say Committee is perfectly correct and I hope that the that he attends on a regular basis, but perhaps “visits” is Scottish Government will accept the advice of not just a better term: I understand that his attendance was not the Electoral Commission, but independent polling that great when he was meant to be there, but I believe organisations. that it is a bit better now. He visits, give talks, participates and plays a constructive and positive part in the life of Mr Davidson: They were absolutely clear that no the school. It is clearly inappropriate that someone such self-respecting polling organisation would use such a as that, who has a lifetime commitment to Scotland, is biased formulation. To be fair—we have to be fair—they not able to participate. also argued, with some justification, that by the time of My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North the referendum, people will generally know what it is and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) makes a valuable point that they are voting for. They will generally know what about the extent to which service personnel are not the question stands for and will be able to make a given a say on where they will be posted. The same choice. However, if there is a marginal gain to be made, applies to many multinational companies, which post it should be removed. To come back to the mantra of people abroad as part of their employment and career British Cycling, which is about the aggregation of marginal progression. It will be a test of the maturity of the gains, this is yet another example of the SNP seeking to Scottish Parliament to see whether it can find ways of make even the slightest advantage balance towards itself squaring this circle and making sure that the electoral rather than the other side. This will not sway 50%, but it register is inclusive rather than exclusive. might sway 0.1% or a fraction of that. However, mony a Turning to the wording of the question, we have mickle makes a muckle, as we are well aware, so in these already produced, as Members present will be aware, a circumstances each example that seeks partisan advantage report asking, “Do you agree this is a biased question?” is to be deplored. It was undoubtedly the case that every professional and The Committee says that expert with whom we discussed the issue and from “the only deduction which can be made is that it”— whom we took evidence said that the question posed by that is, the SNP and the Scottish Government— the SNP was biased. The formulation, “Do you agree?”, is deliberately designed to elicit a positive answer. In “wishes to retain the capacity to amend the question so as to affect the result.” such circumstances, I am distressed to hear the essentially weasel words of SNP spokesmen, who refuse to commit That is the only conclusion that we can reasonably themselves to a fair question. There is some justification draw. for what they have said, because I think that, in principle, I have already covered the role of the Electoral the Scottish Parliament has to be supreme in these Commission in most areas, but I want to touch on circumstances. However, there is absolutely no reason spending limits in particular. The Committee drew in a why the SNP as a political party should not have great deal of evidence on this, and we were convinced committed itself to accepting the advice of the Electoral by that evidence that the ideal pattern would be for the Commission. two parties to agree and, failing that, for the Electoral Given the hierarchy that has been mentioned, I would Commission to decide. The Electoral Commission has have thought that the best alternative is for the two come out with a view that is at variance with that of the campaigns to agree on the wording, and that the second Scottish Government. Notwithstanding that, the Committee best alternative is for everybody to accept the views of and I still take the view that the spending that the the impartial Electoral Commission, which has agreed commission would allow is too small. to consider the matter in depth and to submit to the Scottish Affairs Committee not just its conclusions, but Lindsay Roy: Can my hon. Friend confirm that the its working—as we used to be told in school exams, amount of spending to be allowed for the referendum is “Show working.” The commission will demonstrate not hugely dissimilar from the amount permitted for how it has come to its conclusion. It will not simply spin the devolution referendum in the 1990s? a top, toss a coin or decide in an arbitrary fashion; it will produce a solution and demonstrate why it believes Mr Davidson: Yes. The amount that the Electoral it to be the fairest one. Commission is proposing is similar to the cash amount There is no reason whatsoever why the SNP as a that was allowed in the 1997 referendum, but as a result political party should not commit itself to accepting of inflation, its real value has halved. Our belief is that, that solution. I have some understanding of why the for a regulated period of 16 weeks, the spending limits SNP would not wish to commit the Scottish Parliament should be bigger. As I understand it, £750,000 works irrevocably to that, because, theoretically, a distinction out at 1p per voter per week of the campaign period, can be drawn between the Parliament and the Government and I genuinely believe that that is insufficient. The on the one hand and the party on the other, but the Scottish Government are suggesting that the figure parties involved in the Better Together campaign have should be even lower. 787 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 788

[Mr Davidson] bought and sold with foreign gold? The SNP seem to have no scruples about that. However, those of us who This is a good example of how those of us who are are committed to the United Kingdom and to fair active in Scottish politics are free to disagree with the elections say that we should abide by the principle of Electoral Commission’s initial proposals. We can campaign PPERA and the guidance from the Electoral Commission. for it to change its mind, but, at the end of the day, It is clear from the guidance and the spirit of PPERA, everyone involved should say that they would commit although perhaps not from the letter of it, that foreign themselves to accepting the commission’s decision if it money should not be involved in such referendums. does not change its mind. The Scottish Government are Even at this late date, I hope that the Scottish Parliament unwilling to do that, however. They have reserved unto and the SNP show confidence in their ability to raise themselves the right to impose their view—which is money from Scots in Scotland and desist from taking presumably what suits them best—on top of, or instead foreign money. of, the Electoral Commission’s view. Jim Sheridan: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of Fiona O’Donnell: The order also transfers to the the nauseating things about some of the people who Scottish Government the power to decide who can donate money to the SNP from abroad is that they live make donations to the campaign. What is the view of abroad to avoid paying tax, and yet they want to tell us my hon. Friend’s Committee on foreign donations being in Scotland, who pay our taxes over here, how to live? made to the campaign? That includes Sean Connery. Mr Davidson: I do not wish to name individuals, but Mr Davidson: I will come to that in a second. a Yes campaign is being established in America and I The Better Together campaign was unequivocal in understand the suggestion that Tax Dodgers for Separation saying that it would accept the ruling of the Electoral is about to be established in Monaco. Whether people Commission. The Yes campaign would not do so, however. will sign up to that group publicly is not clear, but we It said that it would commit itself on whether to support will monitor carefully where the money is coming from. the Electoral Commission only when it had heard what We want to be clear about whether the SNP intends to the commission’s judgment was. That also implies that name people abroad—whether tax dodgers or not—who it might not accept the judgment. Presumably, that contribute to its referendum funds. It has not given an position is based on self-interest. unequivocal statement on that, to the best of my knowledge. My hon. Friend mentioned donations a moment ago. The proposed regulated period is 16 weeks only. It is The clear issue is whether foreign donations should be interesting to note that the Scottish Government and accepted. Again, there is a difference between the campaigns the SNP have accepted the advice of the Electoral and again I think that is based on perceived self-interest. Commission on that matter. They are therefore not The Better Together campaign has said that this is opposed in principle to accepting the advice of the about the United Kingdom and that only people and Electoral Commission. We can only assume that it suits organisations in the United Kingdom should be able to them in the circumstances. The Select Committee has play a meaningful role by providing financial support. said that the rules that govern the regulated period with The Yes campaign has said that it is prepared, in regard to openness on donations and finance should principle, to accept unlimited amounts of money in also govern the unregulated period. So far, the two bundles of £500 or less from foreign sources. It has set campaigns have indicated that they are minded to accept up a front organisation in the United States that is that, but we do not have that down in blood. designed to generate organisational support for the Yes In conclusion—[Interruption.] It is true, as is being campaign and for separation. Some of those involved in said by Members from a sedentary position, that the that have made it perfectly clear, on websites and the SNP Members have not yet returned to the Chamber. like, that part of their function is to raise money for the SNP and its separation campaign. Jim McGovern: I am sure that my hon. Friend will Some people might have doubts about how much agree that it is deplorable that the SNP Members are impact small amounts of up to £500 could have. When not here. Does he agree that the party that claims to we took evidence from the True Wales campaign, which stand up for Scotland cannot even turn up for Scotland? took the “no” side in the recent Welsh referendum, it said that virtually all its money had come from small Mr Davidson: Exactly. Equally, the party that claims donations. It was able to run an entire campaign almost to stand up for Scotland cannot even sit down and entirely on small donations. Many of us will remember listen for Scotland. the publicity that was given to the Obama campaign Let me be clear: the Scottish Affairs Committee is and others in the United States—most notably, that of positive about what is being proposed. We welcome the Howard Dean—which received a substantial amount of fact that there will be a referendum. We welcome the their money from a multiplicity of small donations. So clarification that the Scottish Parliament will be given even though the £500 limit might not appear to be a the legal powers to conduct it, whereas it did not have great deal, those donations could be significant when those powers before. We congratulate the Secretary of aggregated. State and his team, including the Under-Secretary of The major question of principle that needs to be State for Scotland, and those in the Scottish Parliament addressed is whether the referendum in Scotland can be who brought the deal about. bought and sold with foreign gold—[Interruption.] I We support the deal not only as a matter of principle; know that some people have heard that term before, but we support it because we recognise the essential need to it is true none the less. Should the referendum be obtain losers’ consent. If they have had a hand in 789 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 790 setting the rules, those who lose the referendum will not I welcome the Edinburgh agreement. It has been well be able to claim that they were robbed. However, with considered, well balanced, well argued and well presented. that responsibility comes the need to ensure that the The most important part about it is that it requires a rules meet the gold standard. We are exceptionally referendum to be legal, fair and decisive, and on those concerned that the right of the Scottish people to have a counts, like most people who have spoken this afternoon, fair referendum will not be met by the SNP. Those of I have deep concerns about four particular points: us who have been elected by people in Scotland must the role of the Electoral Commission; the timing of the not now wash our hands of this matter, but should referendum; the question in the referendum; and the continue to campaign to ensure that the referendum is franchise. If those four matters are not correctly dealt fair and that the Scottish people make sure that anybody with as the legislation to put a referendum in place goes who tries to rig the referendum pays a heavy political through the Scottish Parliament, that referendum will price. not command the respect of the people whose future it will decide. We all want the referendum to be decisive. 3.39 pm We all want this issue to be over, once and for all, so that those of us in the political world can in future speak Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): It is a about the matters that affect the Scottish people and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow South those throughout the UK on a day-to-day basis, instead West (Mr Davidson). He and the Scottish Affairs of having this prolonged argument about the processes Committee, which he chairs, have carried out the important of government. task of putting before the House a wide-ranging report on this matter, and it was good to hear his presentation Let me deal first with the Electoral Commission. I of points from that report this afternoon. wonder what the First Minister is afraid of. If someone was truly willing to allow the proceedings of their I wish to put it on the record that it is an absolute Parliament and the decisions it takes to be properly disgrace that nobody from the Scottish National party examined by a properly constituted public body such as was in the Chamber when the Chairman of the Scottish the Electoral Commission, they should have nothing to Affairs Committee delivered his important and wide-ranging be afraid of. Not wanting the Electoral Commission to speech. Joking apart—I am joking, Mr Deputy Speaker, scrutinise what is to be done suggests that the First because I am disappointed that I am not about to have Minister does have something to be afraid of. It suggests —[Interruption.] Oh—I am not disappointed. Right on that he wants to use political advantage to skew the way cue the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire in which the referendum is conducted. I am surprised at (Pete Wishart) comes back into the Chamber. I am that, because I have an enormous amount of respect for delighted that he is here because I was disappointed that the Scottish First Minister. He is a brilliant politician there was nobody to argue with me. Nevertheless, it is a and he usually manages to find his way through any disgrace that no Scottish National party Member was argument with incredible rhetorical ability, often winning in the Chamber to engage in debate with the Chairman the point—[Interruption.] I am sure that his representative of the Scottish Affairs Committee. Not every word on earth, the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, spoken by the hon. Member for Glasgow South West is not leaving the Chamber again. goes without challenge in this House, and it was the duty of Scottish National party Members to be present I genuinely pay tribute to the Scottish First Minister to challenge anything with which they disagreed in what for his debating ability, his rhetorical ability and his the hon. Gentleman said on the Floor of the House, political ability, so I do not see what he can possibly be and not merely in the media and other places. This afraid of, unless he has something to hide. He should Chamber is the forum for discussion about the affairs of not have anything to hide, because if we are to trust the our country—our whole country. Scottish people to make this important decision—and I do—we must trust them to make the decision in an I well remember our debates in 1998 on the Scotland open, honest, fair and balanced way. Indeed, it is worrying Bill that became the historic Scotland Act 1998. I that when the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) remember Donald Dewar, to whom I pay great tribute spoke earlier, he took interventions and questions from for the work he did on behalf of Scotland and the various Members, but simply would not undertake on United Kingdom, standing at the Dispatch Box when behalf of his party—and therefore on behalf of the we debated what is now section 29 of the Act, and saying Government in Scotland—to adhere to what the Electoral that it was not his intention for there ever to be a Commission says. situation in which a Government of Scotland, or Scottish Parliament, would wish to conduct a referendum on the independence of Scotland. I firmly recall those of us Bob Stewart: It seems clear that the reason why the then on the Opposition Benches saying, “But there might Scottish nationalist party does not want to adhere to be and we must guard against it.” He said we did not the directions of the Electoral Commission, but wants have to guard against it, but in the end we did. However, to seek electoral advantage by every means possible, is history moves on. that it probably realises that the majority of Scotsmen I certainly respect the sovereignty of the people, and and Scotswomen—and 16-year-old Scots too—want to we now have a Government elected by the Scottish remain united with the United Kingdom. That is probably people—sadly—and that is up to the Scottish people why the Scottish nationalists will seek every advantage and is democracy speaking. We now have a Government they can. who do wish to conduct a referendum on the future constitutional position of the United Kingdom, and Mrs Laing: I am quite certain that my hon. Friend is therefore it is right for this Parliament to enact this right. If the First Minister was confident that a vast order today to give the Scottish Parliament power to majority of people in Scotland would vote for Scotland conduct a referendum. to separate from the United Kingdom, as he wishes 791 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 792

[Mrs Laing] together as a brilliant team in the Olympics? The games are not going to fuel nationalism; they will do exactly they would, he would not be worried about the Electoral the opposite. Commission, or about spending, the question or anything else. It is because he knows that, actually, the reason he Sir Malcolm Bruce: Does my hon. Friend not has his majority in the Scottish Parliament at present is acknowledge that those participating in the Olympic because of the circumstances that pertained when people games on behalf of the nations of the United Kingdom went to the polls at the last Scottish election. They were will still be part of Team GB and training for the Rio not voting for Scotland to separate from the United Olympics? Kingdom; they were voting against the Labour party—but I shall not go down that route now, as you would not Mrs Laing: Absolutely. The right hon. Gentleman allow me to, Mr Deputy Speaker. We all know, however, makes a good point. Let us hope that they train just as that that is what—[Interruption.] They were voting well as they did last time and bring in as many medals, against the Conservative party as well, I freely admit it, as it was wonderful to see and to support. He is absolutely but that is not the point. The point is that the First right, so why wait? Minister of Scotland knows that—he is a clever politician and he can analyse it. He knows the true intentions of Looking at it from the other point of view, however, I the people of Scotland, and that is why he is afraid. was annoyed at first that we were not just getting on That is why he is delaying, that is why he is afraid and with this and having the referendum, but now I discover that is why he is messing about with the franchise. that the more that one goes into the consequences of Scotland separating from the United Kingdom and the more time we have to examine the consequences in Mr McCann: The hon. Lady is wise not to stray too every area of life—every area of Government, every far from the subject, but party politics is important. area of the economy and every area geographically—the Does she agree that members of the Scottish National more obvious it becomes that we are “Better Together”. party are trying to fuse the two issues of party politics I am now glad that we have many months ahead of us and the constitution together, and are making the mistake to make the argument, because I am confident that the of underestimating the Scottish people? The Scottish people of Scotland will see the truth as it emerges and people know that a decision in a general election lasts as we examine what the real consequences of separation for five years, while constitutional change will last for would be. 300 years. I turn next to the question. There is no point asking a question along the lines of: “Do you agree that Scotland Mrs Laing: Yes, the hon. Gentleman sums it up should be an independent country?” That is what the absolutely perfectly. When people vote in any kind of First Minister and the Scottish Government have so far election, the effect is for the short to medium term; proposed. It is such a biased question that even I would when they vote in a referendum, it is forever—people answer yes—of course, Scotland should be, is and always know that. Actually, I think it is because the First has been an independent country. It is a non-question. Minister does not underestimate the Scottish people There is no point going through the rigmarole of a that he is afraid, but he knows what they really are likely referendum, spending hundreds of millions of pounds, to do. We in this House certainly do not underestimate to ask a meaningless question. If even I would answer the Scottish people, but I still ask the question: why is yes, the facts speak for themselves: the question is the First Minister afraid of the Electoral Commission? enormously biased. If he is not afraid, he should come out now—so should It is only worth asking a question, if it illuminates the the hon. Member for Moray, who did not do so this real issue at stake, and the real issue is not about afternoon, and the hon. Member for Perth and North whether someone is proud to be Scottish and proud of Perthshire who is now, happily, in his place—and tell us their country; it is not about the word “independence” that the Scottish Parliament will adhere unequivocally or Scotland being its own country; it is not even about to whatever the Electoral Commission has to say. Well, nationhood, rising to be a nation again and all of that; he is not going to, and the silence speaks for itself. the question is about separation. The difference between My next concern is timing. Every business person in Scotland—indeed, the whole of the United Kingdom— Scotland and everyone who is concerned with business before and after a referendum will turn only on the issue and economic prosperity in Scotland will say that the of separation. Nationhood will go on; the country will uncertainty of the present situation is damaging for the go on; and pride in one’s country will go on, as it always Scottish economy, and therefore for the Scottish people. has done and always will do—those things will not It simply does not make sense, having spent decades change. and decades building up the Scottish National party as The change will be that, if the Scottish people vote a machine with just one goal—to take Scotland out of for what the First Minister asks them to vote for, the United Kingdom—that when at last that party is in Scotland will separate. The key word, then, is “separate”. a position to do so, it does not but hesitates and will not We must put aside all those other words and ensure that take action. Again I ask: what are SNP members afraid the word “separate” is in the question, because that is of? Are they really waiting for the anniversary of the what the referendum is really about. Research from battle of Bannockburn? Are they really expecting some MORI and other well-thought-of opinion pollsters shows sort of upsurge in nationalist feeling because we are that, by the time we get to voting day in a campaign as going to have the Commonwealth games in Glasgow? long as this, people pretty well know whether they are Exactly the opposite happened in the Olympics. Was it on this side or that, but the House should make it clear not wonderful to see Team GB? Was it not fantastic to that we believe that the issue is separation and that see people from Scotland, England and Wales all working therefore the word “separation” must be in the question. 793 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 794

I come next to concerns about the franchise. It appears for the referendum should be framed. It is also unfair that the First Minister wants to make the franchise as that those who are not in the armed forces but who are wide as possible, as long as those who are enfranchised temporarily out of Scotland, serving their country in are those he thinks are likely to vote on his side of the some other respect, should not be allowed to vote. It is argument. Basically, that is what it is all about. Let us wrong that they and whoever is with them on their consider the fairness, or otherwise, of the franchise. mission, whatever it might be, should not be allowed to First, various Members have expressed their concerns vote. Those temporarily out of Scotland who would in about 16 and 17-year-olds voting. The hon. Member for other circumstances still be in Scotland will not be Glasgow South West put to us the findings of his Select allowed to vote. Committee report in that respect, and I hope that the House will take note of that. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Does the One of my main concerns about 16 and 17-year-olds hon. Lady agree that many people in Scotland will find being able to vote is that, in order to make that happen, it crazy that Scots in the armed forces posted abroad 14-year-olds have to appear on the register. It means may well get a vote as their home address in Scotland is including the names, addresses and ages of those aged on the electoral register, yet Scots in the armed forces 14 and 15, who are children, not adults. The names, who are posted in the rest of the United Kingdom will ages and addresses of those children aged 14 and 15 will not be able to vote in the referendum? be available on a public document. That is simply not right, but it is one of the consequences of the crazy, Mrs Laing: Yes, that is the worst anomaly of all. scattergun effect of saying, “Let’s pull everyone into People who are out of the United Kingdom are treated this; let’s let everybody vote; make the franchise as wide differently from people who are in the United Kingdom. as possible”—as long, of course, as it means people I was just coming on to that point, and I am glad that who agree with the First Minister. the hon. Lady will agree with what I am about to say. The question is this: why is the franchise for this referendum Mark Lazarowicz: Although there are certain issues being based on the franchise for local government elections? about giving 16 and 17-year-olds the vote, there is a This is not a question of local government; it is completely quite simple solution to the point raised by the hon. different. Local government elections are about electing Lady. The names of under-16s should not be made people, for four years or so, who look after truly local available on a published register or on any register until matters such as roads, pavements, lighting and village a few weeks before the referendum period. There are halls. I accept that people who are not living in the ways of getting round the difficulty. area and paying council tax should not take part in a local government election, because it concerns local matters. I also accept that people from EU countries, Mrs Laing: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but Commonwealth countries, Ireland and so on, who are I am not confident about that point. It greatly concerns living in a particular area and paying local taxes, should me that the names, addresses and ages of 14-year-olds have a vote in a local government election at that time. would be made public in order to allow them to vote by Their vote will last for four years—I have no problem the time they are 16. At the moment, the name of with that. But why has the franchise for this historic someone who is yet to be 18 will be on the register more referendum been based on the franchise for local than a year before they are 18. I can cope with that for government elections? [Interruption.] I was hoping that 17-year-olds, but not for 14-year-olds who are children. the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire might I repeat that that is simply not right. answer the question. He indicates that he will come to it Moving on to other aspects of the franchise, it would in due course. That is excellent. We really need an appear that some members of the armed forces will be answer to the question. This is not about local government, allowed to vote in the referendum, but what about their or local matters, but a huge, historic referendum that families or their dependants? What if someone serving affects all Scots and the whole United Kingdom. in Germany lives with his wife, teenage children and perhaps mother-in-law? The person in the armed forces Mark Lazarowicz: The answer is simple: the franchise might be given a vote, but those others would not. That is the same for local and Scottish parliamentary elections. is not fair. Any choice of franchise will have anomalies, but is it not sensible to make the franchise for the referendum Bob Stewart: I find it extraordinary that because the the same as for Scottish parliamentary elections? most Scottish of infantry battalions, the 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland, the old Argyll and Mrs Laing: No, it is not. The hon. Gentleman has Sutherland Highlanders, is garrisoned in Canterbury—that answered the question in a factual way—the franchise most English of towns—those serving in it will not be for a Scottish Parliament election was based on the given the vote. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is franchise for a local government election. I know that, extraordinary? but my argument is that basing a franchise on local government elections is not suitable for a historic referendum Mrs Laing: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that that will affect Scotland and the whole United Kingdom that is extraordinary, and it is also simply unfair. If the for a long time to come. Scottish Parliament wants this referendum to command If the franchise had been based on the UK parliamentary respect in the United Kingdom and indeed across the elections, British nationals who have been living outside world, the franchise on which it is based must be fair Britain for less than 15 years would have a vote. That and must be seen to be fair. What is being said this would be much fairer, and would cover the point made afternoon must be taken into account in the Scottish by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Parliament when it comes to debate how the legislation Nash), because someone serving in the armed forces in, 795 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 796

[Mrs Laing] Mrs Laing: As ever, my hon. Friend has expressed his view very clearly. That is exactly the point, and that is say, Germany, who has their entire family living with why it is so important that we are having a full debate them—who would presumably have been out of Scotland today. This Parliament has a voice that deserves to be for less than 15 years—would have a vote in the constituency heard, and people throughout the United Kingdom in which they were last based in Scotland. It would have voices that deserve to be heard, when it comes to a make far more sense to base the franchise for the matter that will affect the future of the whole United referendum on UK parliamentary elections, because Kingdom. I have every confidence that the Scottish that would allow far more people who are Scottish and Parliament will hear our voices, and will take into who want to have a say in the future of their country to consideration what is said in the House this afternoon do so. and throughout the United Kingdom as the matter is There is a far more difficult point. Hundreds of debated over the coming weeks and months. thousands of Scots living in parts of the United Kingdom It would not be difficult for a vote to be given to other than Scotland do not feel in travelling the few people who live in the United Kingdom, outside Scotland, miles to Carlisle or the few hundred miles to London but who were born in Scotland. Indeed, it would be very that they have left their country. Their attitude—I know easy. I appreciate that my right hon. Friend the Under- because I am one of them—is that they are living in a Secretary of State will not be able to answer the points different part of their country from that in which they that I am making, and nor do I expect him to do so. happen to have been born. That does not mean that This is a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but I am they have in any way given up their nationality or their using the forum of the House of Commons to make pride in their part of our United Kingdom. It is utterly points which I hope will be taken up in the Scottish scandalous that the Scottish Government’s current plans Parliament. They may be dismissed, but I hope that will disfranchise hundreds of thousands of people who they will be taken seriously. were born in Scotland but live in other parts of the It would not be difficult for a vote to be given to United Kingdom. The First Minister of Scotland has people who were born in Scotland, because everyone’s said that people from Commonwealth countries can passport identifies the town in which they were born. It vote on Scotland’s future, citizens of the Irish Republic would not be difficult to allow a person who can show who live in Scotland can vote on Scotland’s future, and they were born in Scotland but who is registered to vote anyone who is a citizen of any part of the enormous in some other part of the UK to apply for a postal vote European Union who happens to be living in Scotland to take part in the referendum. That is a serious point. I for a matter of months can have a say in the future of am not points-scoring against the SNP; I am trying to Scotland, but hundreds of thousands of Scots living in help the First Minister in his quest to broaden the England, Wales and Northern Ireland will not have that franchise and show that the referendum takes into say. consideration the opinions of as many people as possible. Pete Wishart: I have been listening carefully to the There is an irony in all this. If I were a wealthy hon. Lady’s remarks for half an hour or so. All the landowner who owned a property in Scotland as well as arrangements to which she has referred during the past a house in my constituency in Essex, I could vote in the 10 minutes were agreed between her party’s Front Bench referendum, because I would be entitled to vote in local and the Labour Front Bench, and between the UK government elections on the basis that I own a property Government and the Scottish Government. If she is not in Scotland. I would not even have to be a wealthy happy about the arrangements for the Scottish people landowner, in fact: if I just owned a little house in to have control over their own referendum through their Millport—which is, of course, my ambition—I could elected representatives, she can express her unhappiness have a vote in the referendum. However, because I am by voting against the order. Will she do that? not wealthy and cannot afford to own a property in Scotland as well as a house in my constituency, I cannot Mrs Laing: No. I am very happy. The hon. Gentleman have a vote. As we all know, there are hundreds and is trying to put words into my mouth, suggesting that I hundreds of people who own properties in Scotland but do not understand or care what happens in Scotland. live most of their lives in other parts of the UK who will That is not the case. I am very much in favour of the have a vote in this referendum. It is ironic indeed that order, and very much in favour of allowing the Scottish the First Minister is taking us back to before the 1832 Parliament to conduct the referendum. However, I firmly Reform Act, when the right to vote depended on ownership believe that because the referendum will affect the future of land. What a disgrace! of the whole United Kingdom, this House—this Parliament—should also serve as a forum for discussion Mrs McGuire: The hon. Lady might not welcome my about its conduct. intervention, because I think she may be in danger of Although I do not happen to live in Scotland at slightly overegging her pudding. My understanding is present, and although some Members who are speaking that people have to prove to the electoral registration officers this afternoon do not represent Scottish constituencies, that they spend the majority of their time in the house I hope that if matters will proceed with good will, the at which they wish to be registered. While I understand Scottish Parliament will take into consideration what the hon. Lady’s train of thought, I am not entirely sure we discuss in this Parliament during the process of that the image she is conjuring up of hordes of people giving it the power to hold the referendum. living in other parts of the United Kingdom is accurate. Iain Stewart: As I understand it, the order in no way prohibits the Scottish Parliament from taking on board Mrs Laing: I thank the right hon. Lady for her the suggestion that my hon. Friend is—very powerfully— comments, but my understanding is that people who making. have two properties in different places can vote in different 797 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 798 elections, especially those based on a local government across the world. I wanted to tackle inequality and franchise. That is what is wrong here. If this franchise discrimination wherever they may be found, and to were constructed for the purposes of our historic promote opportunities for people, no matter what their referendum, rather than as a local government franchise, background. I had no idea at that time that the first big the problem would be overcome. I am making a serious battle of my political life would be to try to keep my request: when the Scottish Parliament debates this matter, own country together. I recognise that today’s debate is I urge it to consider giving a postal vote in the referendum important to us, but it is more important to the people to people who were born in Scotland but who are now of Scotland and to the people of these isles. That is why registered to vote in other parts of the UK. we in this place and our colleagues in the Scottish I welcome the Edinburgh agreement. We all believe in Parliament, from all political parties, must approach democracy. We in this House believe in the sovereignty this debate and the debate on the future of the United of the people. It is right that our Parliament should give Kingdom in a manner befitting the importance of the the Scottish Parliament the power to hold this referendum, poll. This is no ordinary vote. All of us can be removed and I look forward to the fight. by the electorate—whether we like it or not, we are transient Members of this place—but the decision in Mr Davidson: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. 2014 will last for ever. That is why the terms and tone of I wish to leave the Chamber, but I do not wish my the debate are so important. departure to be interpreted as some sort of juvenile I welcome the agreement between the UK and Scottish stunt. How can I achieve that? Governments, and I congratulate Ministers on both Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We are going sides on the hard work that was put in to reach it. to miss you, Mr Davidson, but each of us will have to However, I wish to sound a note of caution. The come to terms in our own way with your absence from Secretary of State talked about making sure that we the Chamber. follow the advice of the Electoral Commission, but I do not think that anybody in this place should be naive Mr Davidson: Excellent; thank you very much, about the current make-up of the Scottish Government Mr Deputy Speaker. and the SNP. We have a majority SNP Government in the Scottish Parliament, but that is not a democratic place in the conventional sense; it is a dictatorship of 4.19 pm one man sitting in Bute house, who will do not what is Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I never thought in Scotland’s interests, but what is in his own or his I would say that I will miss my hon. Friend the Member party’s interests. We need to be very clear about that as for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), but I am we go forward. missing him as he leaves the Chamber now. This Parliament has an important role to play. I fully I am pleased to have an opportunity to take part in agree that we need to transfer the powers from here to this debate. As I have said in the House before, the the Scottish Parliament—I fully accept that that is the matter we are discussing today and the decision on right thing to do—but every Scottish Member of Parliament Scotland’s future will be the biggest decision made in in this place was elected on a mandate of the Scottish 300 years. It will certainly be the biggest decision in our electorate. My ballot paper did not say “UK Labour lifetimes. party”or “London Labour party”; it clearly said “Scottish First, let me reiterate a point the Chairman of the Labour party”. My interest here, first and foremost, is Scottish Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member to deliver for my constituents in Glasgow. The first and for Glasgow South West, made in jest, but which is, in foremost thing for every Scottish Member in this place fact, serious. Today we have heard the leader of the is to deliver for Scotland. That has to be the case in this SNP in Westminster congratulating all parties for working debate and in every future such debate, not just in the together to get an agreement on this section 30 order. referendum. We have heard the SNP’s own campaign and the Yes Scotland chief executive saying, “We want a fair, honest, So the UK Government do have a role to play in positive and transparent debate”, but instead what we future. They have a role in terms of the franchise, the have seen in this House is a co-ordinated stunt. It was question and the framework resulting from the advice not one Member choosing to go elsewhere because they taken from the Electoral Commission on the spending had another priority—that is a different argument limits. We must ensure that there is proper scrutiny in altogether; SNP Members chose to walk out from this this place of the decisions taken at the Scottish Parliament, Chamber in a co-ordinated way, and that is disrespectful particularly in respect of ensuring that the Electoral not only to this Parliament, but to Scotland. The hon. Commission’s advice is followed. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) Let me make it clear that the SNP has won the should apologise for that behaviour. The Scottish people mandate to hold a referendum—of course it has. The will judge the SNP on that very issue. Although the SNP won the right, through its election manifesto, to issue we are discussing is the reason why the SNP even ask the question of the Scottish people. The SNP has exists, only one SNP Member can be bothered to come campaigned for independence throughout its existence to the Chamber—and even they can walk out and walk and this is its big moment. The eyes of the world are on about the Lobby instead of listening to the debate. That the SNP as it seizes the chance to put its case to the says everything about where the SNP’s priorities lie. The people of Scotland. Equally, however, the people of SNP’s priority is not Scotland; it is the SNP. Scotland have a right to respond decisively and they When I joined the Labour party almost 15 years have the right to have the question asked and answered ago—I know that I do not look that old, Mr Deputy in a way that is open, transparent, fair and, perhaps Speaker—I did so to fight against poverty and inequality above all else, not open to doubt or challenge. 799 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 800

Sir Malcolm Bruce: The hon. Gentleman is making a issue or many others before this point, so none of the very good point. Does he agree that the evidence is clear debate from the SNP should be skewed in the context of that a substantial proportion of the people who voted the section 30 agreement. SNP do not support independence and if they saw the We have heard from colleagues today, and have already SNP manipulating the question, that could prove counter- seen from the SNP, a willingness to change the franchise productive in two ways? Of course, it would discredit for the referendum by reducing the voting age to 16. the SNP but it would also lead to a result that people Although I agree with that, the SNP’s proposal is based would find unsatisfactory. Does he agree that it is in the not on any principled view that 16 and 17-year-olds interests of the SNP and Scotland for the question to be should have the vote for all elections but rather on a agreed by, and to have the confidence of, all parties? belief that they might gain electoral advantage from the inclusion of that group, who were believed to be more Anas Sarwar: I agree wholeheartedly and, in fact, I likely to support independence. However, that plan would go further. Polling has shown that 45% of the appears to have backfired somewhat as a recent poll people who voted SNP in 2011, when the party won showed that young people are as against independence that overall majority in the Scottish Parliament, oppose as the rest of Scotland. independence and support being members of the United Let me make some important points about the expansion Kingdom. We have seen the launch of the Labour for of the franchise to include 16-year-olds. We need to Independence campaign, which has one or a maximum ensure that not only some 16-year-olds but every 16-year-old of two Labour members fronting a campaign led mainly gets a vote in the referendum. We must be clear about by the SNP. In fact, the SNP should be looking to keep the work that must be done locally and nationally by its own support rather than trying to look for voters the electoral registration officers, where the funds will elsewhere. come from to meet the costs and whether local government The Scottish Government, Yes Scotland and the Deputy will be given the additional finance it needs to deliver on First Minister have all said that the debate must be that pledge. We must also be clear about the impact of open, transparent, fair and honest. The transfer of the UK Government’s insistence on single voter registration powers from this place to the Scottish Parliament and on encouraging 16 and 17-year-olds to register for the the decisions that the Electoral Commission will make referendum. Those are all serious issues that must be on how to make the referendum fair and open are the addressed before we move on to the substance of the first big tests of the rhetoric. This is the first opportunity question. those bodies will have to show that they will put the There are other areas of concern, too. Perhaps the people of Scotland first, that they will put the future of most obvious is the reluctance of the Scottish Government Scotland before the future of the SNP and the country’s publicly to commit to accepting the decisions of the electoral interests before their own, and that the will of the Commission. The role of the Electoral Commission is people of Scotland will come before all else. The people clear and well rehearsed; it is an independent, experienced of Scotland deserve nothing less. and trusted body, whose motive is only that of ensuring I have some concerns. To date, the SNP rhetoric on a fair contest and a fair outcome. transparency and fairness has not matched up to the Two areas of consideration are vital. The first is the reality of its behaviour. On the very subject of today’s fairness of the question. Can anything be of greater debate, let us not forget that just one year ago the SNP importance than ensuring that voters have a clear unbiased said that it did not need a section 30 order for the question? The second is to ensure that the spending referendum to be competent. Alex Salmond said to the limits of the respective campaigns are appropriate to Scottish Parliament: allow a properly robust and informed debate. “We have set out in the past how the Scottish Parliament could There is not universal approval of the wording of the hold a referendum that we are satisfied would be within its present competence.”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 25 January 2012; question. Some say it is leading and some say it is likely c. 5605.] to skew the result. I say, let the Electoral Commission decide. On our side of the argument, we know the result Bruce Crawford, as Minister for Parliamentary Business, we want, and the nationalists know the result they said that the SNP Administration had set out their want. It should not be for politicians to decide what the position on the question should be; let us take it out of their hands. I “right and ability of the Scottish Parliament to hold an independence am not saying that our question is better than an SNP referendum”. question; I am saying that we should respect the right of Both comments were presumably the most factual an independent respected body to set the question. All comments ever made in the history of the Scottish political parties should accept its advice and move on, Parliament. to give Scotland the debate it deserves. Let us be clear. The leader of the Westminster SNP has welcomed the historic agreement that will transfer Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): One of the these powers—an agreement the SNP said was not things the Electoral Commission can deliver is its experience needed in the first place. We have also seen the section 30 in getting under the language used—for example, testing order being used as an excuse for assertions on other it with focus groups—to see whether people understand issues. The Deputy First Minister stood up in the Scottish what the writer thinks they understand. Does my hon. Parliament and claimed that the SNP was now in a Friend agree that it is not about the politics, but about position to seek legal advice on the EU because of the ensuring that the language is clear? content of the Edinburgh agreement, an agreement that her party did not think was needed in the first place. Anas Sarwar: I was coming to that very point. The Nothing in the agreement stopped the SNP or the Electoral Commission will test the question. Any advice Scottish Government from seeking legal advice on that it offers will be evidence-based. It will not be based on 801 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 802 supposition by any Member of the House or of any again, the SNP is seeking to manipulate the process for other place, nor on opinion or myth; it will be based on its own ends. I hope that it will rise to the occasion. I evidence and rigorous testing. shall give SNP Members the opportunity to say whether The job of the Electoral Commission is to ensure that they prefer to abide by the decision of the Electoral the question is clear, understandable and decisive. If Commission or whether they wish to reconsider it. I given that right, it will ensure that the question is hope that they will address that when they speak in the unbiased and fair. Crucially, by accepting the decision debate. of the Electoral Commission, the question will be seen, By passing the motion we are setting out a clear legal across Scotland and across the world, as unbiased and position on the referendum, and by doing so we are fair. It was somewhat surprising, therefore, to hear the passing responsibility from this place to the Scottish chief executive of the Yes Scotland campaign be very Government, and to all Members of the Scottish clear in his evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee Parliament. That is a heavy responsibility that lies with about the Electoral Commission advice: the SNP Government and SNP Members because, perhaps “There is always room left to disagree.” uniquely in the Scottish Parliament, the party has an overall majority and a resulting built-in majority in Yes, we can disagree, but trusting an independent body committee, which places a greater responsibility on the to deliver a fair question is another thing altogether. party of government to live up to the highest ideals, While those words are deeply concerning they also, I judged not as members of the SNP but as parliamentarians fear, reveal a worrying capacity for those in the yes and first and foremost as democrats. If done right, the camp to play fast and loose with vital checks and legacy, whatever the outcome of the referendum, can be balances in the process. It is not just on the question a Parliament of which we can all be proud, and a result that they appear prepared to ignore advice; given the in which we can all have faith. I commit myself and, I SNP proposals, the issue of campaign funding also am sure, every single member of my party, to working appears to be in its sights. The SNP Government want for what is in the best interests of Scotland, whatever spending limits. That is absolutely reasonable and to be the outcome of the referendum. I hope that members of expected, but unfortunately, they want the spending other political parties will do exactly the same. Scotland limits to be set by them, not by the independent Electoral deserves nothing less. Commission. The spending limits will be set by legislation, but the SNP will control the legislation. There is a majority Government—in effect, a dictatorship in the 4.36 pm Scottish Parliament—who will seek to do what is to Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I very their advantage. much welcome the chance to participate in this important The SNP has already proposed spending limits at debate. It is a great pleasure once again to follow my half the level, or even less, than those suggested by the fellow Hutchesonian, who made a powerful speech. If it Electoral Commission. It is worth considering the impact does not damage his reputation even further, I shall of the Scottish Government’s proposals. One of their point out that I agree with many of the points that he proposals is that each campaign can spend a maximum made, and I hope to build on them. of £750,000. That is half the £1.5 million allowed In many respects, I wish that we were not having this through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums debate. I am a staunch Unionist, and I believe in the Act 2000. It is less than the £1.2 million that all the United Kingdom. I wish that we did not have to council candidates from each party could have spent contemplate at all the prospect of the United Kingdom collectively during last May’s council elections. splitting up into its constituent parts. I believe that that I recognise that winning control of the great city of very process will cause uncertainty at a time when we Glasgow and many other places was important for us as need absolute certainty for our economy. There is evidence a political party, and more importantly, it was an from Canada that the ongoing constitutional debate opportunity for political parties to deliver their principles and the uncertainty of Quebec’s constitutional status and values in local authorities, but are we seriously damaged the economy in Quebec, and I wish that we suggesting that the referendum on the future of Scotland— were not in that position. The hon. Member for Glasgow the most important decision we have made in 300 years— South West (Mr Davidson) made an important point deserves to have less spent on it and is of less importance from the perspective of his constituency about the than a council election? I do not think so. That point uncertainty for the shipyards in Govan and elsewhere, needs to be reflected in the proposals for the spending and the fact that there will be no certainty on future framework. orders while the constitutional question remains unresolved. The SNP proposals will have an impact on other We are where we are. I am a democrat, and I fully interested parties; for example, the trade union movement. accept that the SNP won the majority of seats in the Unite has approximately 150,000 members in Scotland, Scottish Parliament. However much opinion polls show yet the SNP proposes that organisations such as Unite that the constitutional question was, or was not, part of are limited to a maximum spend of £50,000. It does not the debate in that election, it was part of the SNP take a mathematical genius to work out that Unite will manifesto, and it is perfectly legitimate for it to hold the not even be able to pay for the postage of a letter to referendum. I accept that the Scottish Parliament is the each of its members, never mind pay for a leaflet or an right forum in which to set the terms of the referendum, envelope. but it must be absolutely fair, clean and decisive. It does not take a political genius to work out the I wish to mention a few of my concerns. There must SNP’s motives. There can be no convincing reason why not be any question of gerrymandering with regard to the SNP would choose to set those limits. The court of the question, the electorate and the rules by which the public opinion will come to the conclusion that yet campaign is fought. Many Members have expressed 803 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 804

[Iain Stewart] on crofting, but I suspect that is not quite as significant an issue as the future of the United Kingdom. There legitimate concerns about the prospects for the campaign. should be consistency and the debate should be in I commend members of the Scottish Affairs Committee general terms, not unilaterally for one poll. for their insightful report, which highlighted a number My next concern is about the electorate. As my hon. of concerns. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) I want to concentrate on one or two misgivings about eloquently and powerfully explained, it is utterly wrong the franchise. The question of 16 and 17-year-olds that an EU citizen temporarily living in Scotland should voting has been raised. I completely accept that there is have a say on the future of the United Kingdom, but a a legitimate debate to be had about whether the voting Scot living in England does not. If I, for example, chose age should be lowered. Eighteen is not set in stone in to live and work in Barcelona, I would not feel any right this country: the age at which someone can vote has to take part in Catalonia’s future constitutional relationship changed over the years and has been reduced in recent with the rest of Spain. It would not cross my mind to times. I get young people in my constituency calling on exercise an opinion on that, so why should a Spaniard me to consider a reduction in the voting age. I have an living in Edinburgh or wherever decide on the future of open mind on the subject. My view is that we should the United Kingdom? agree on a common age of majority for a series of things. It is slightly daft that we have different ages of Mr MacNeil: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s view adulthood for learning to drive, voting, getting married, but if I was so fortunate as to live in Barcelona and a buying alcohol or tobacco, and serving in the armed Catalonian vote was called, I think I might express my forced. It is not beyond our wit to agree an age at which opinion on the issue, given that it would affect me day most young people achieve a degree of maturity and at to day. Perhaps that is a personal difference between the which they can exercise adult decisions. I do not have a two of us, but I would care about the country and the particular view about whether that should be 16, 17, 18 environment in which I was living and therefore I would or some other age, but that is not the point. take part. That debate should be had in general terms, not in the specific circumstances of one poll. It is utterly Iain Stewart: It is perfectly reasonable for someone wrong that unilaterally for one election or one referendum living in a city or an area of a country to take part in we make a change, and for that not to apply elsewhere. very local polls concerning the local infrastructure and Whether 16 and 17-year-olds are more likely to support services. That is quite a different matter from someone the Union or independence is not the point. The debate being able to take part in a fundamental decision about should be had in general terms. the constitutional status of their home country.

Pete Wishart: Following the Edinburgh agreement, Mr MacNeil: I hope that the hon. Gentleman this is the only election or referendum the Scottish understands that the upstream issue is that all the Parliament will have control of. We have no say on UK matters that he is talking about are affected by the elections. We do not even have a say on Scottish framework in which they operate. One of the reasons parliamentary elections. Of course, if we had responsibility for wanting an independent Scotland was highlighted for them, we would make sure that 16 and 17-year-olds last week in the debate on the Welfare Benefits Up-rating could vote. We have crofter commissions and local Bill. The majority of Scottish MPs were against it, yet it government elections in which we can have 16 and is being foisted on Scotland against the wishes of Scottish 17-year-olds voting, but we do not have legislative society. If we want to produce a welfare situation that is responsibility for UK or Scottish parliamentary elections. perfect and better for Scotland, we have to first sort out the constitutional framework around it before we can Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is making a point get to that point. about a continuing process of devolution and, in the future, it might fall within the competence of the Scottish Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is confusing a Parliament to decide these things. That is a separate number of issues. He wants independence and separation debate. But to make the decision unilaterally for one so that Scotland can decide these things for itself. The poll in what I believe is the self-interest of the party— point that I am making is that a EU citizen who is whether that is misplaced or not is another question—is neither Scottish nor English would be able to influence fundamentally wrong in my view. that vote in Scotland, but a Scot living in England would not. Mr McCann: It might interest the hon. Gentleman to know that the Scottish Parliament does have control of Mr MacNeil rose— other elections. It has control of local government elections and, in 2012, it decided not to extend the franchise to Iain Stewart: Forgive me, but I want to make progress. 16 and 17-year-olds. I fear he may be getting incorrect We all have opinions on the constitutional status information from the hon. Member for Perth and North of all sorts of countries. I have views on what should Perthshire (Pete Wishart). happen in the United States, Australia and Germany, but I do not seek to vote on them. It is fundamentally Iain Stewart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for wrong that such a situation could exist. I echo the call that helpful point of information. I return to the made by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest fundamental point. If the age of franchise is changed, it for a very simple change so that the franchise for should apply to every election or none, and not to one Westminster elections also applied to Scotland. That poll. I do not have sufficient knowledge of the referendum would go a long way to removing many of the anomalies 805 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 806 that have been mentioned with regard to members of Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman makes my point the armed forces and their families not being able to for me. Constitutional uncertainty is potentially dangerous take part in this poll. We call on these people to fight for the economy, although I am sure that you would and to, potentially, give up their lives for their country, rule me out of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I started to yet they will not be given the right to take part in its talk about the EU argument. The danger for Scotland is future direction. real, however. This ongoing uncertainty could be very damaging, not only for Scotland’s economy but for the Mrs Laing: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the economy of the whole United Kingdom. I am a fervent franchise were based on that used for UK Parliament Unionist, and I believe that we are better together. The elections, as he has just suggested, instead of on the terms of the referendum must be clear and fair, and the local government franchise, that would also mean not result must be one that can be accepted. I wish that we only that Scots living outside Scotland would have a could just get on and have the referendum as soon as right to vote, but that people who are eligible to vote in possible. UK parliamentary elections in other parts of the United Kingdom, but who were born in Scotland and can Several hon. Members rose— prove it, would, too? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. This Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes another excellent debate is time limited, and the wind-ups will start at point and I echo it. The other key point is—I mentioned 6.30 pm, so I must ask Members for self-discipline and this in my intervention on her speech—that it is up to time restraint to ensure that everyone may be heard. the Scottish Parliament to decide this. There is nothing in the order that prohibits that. I urge it to look reasonably and rationally at the issue. The referendum must be fair 4.52 pm if it is to have legitimacy. If it does not have legitimacy, I fear that we will just perpetuate uncertainty. Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I will certainly try to be brief. I want first to hark back to my intervention That leads me to my next point, which my right hon. on the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). I Friend the Secretary of State also made in his opening noticed the look of surprise on many faces around the speech. The referendum must be the end of the matter. Chamber at the time, and I wonder whether we could Whatever the result, it must be clear and binding. As my get some clarification on the franchise question. I have right hon. Friend also said, if the decision is a yes certainly heard of an electoral registration officer saying vote—I fervently hope that it will be a massive no that a person had to spend 50% of their time in their vote—negotiations will have to begin. I want clarity place of residence before the officer would be willing to from those on the Government Front Bench on what register them to vote there. Given that the question of will happen if there is a very narrow yes vote and the franchise for this referendum is so complicated, a bit negotiations begin on the terms of the divorce. What if of clarity would be helpful. If the hon. Lady’s interpretation the reality does not match the separatists’ rhetoric on of it is correct, I would suggest that she was not over-egging issues such as Scotland’s membership of the EU, adoption her pudding but that she has instead brought forth a of the single currency or any one of the number of political confection worthy of Mary Berry. issues that are coming to light? What if the deal for Scotland is not nearly as favourable as first envisaged? It was a pleasure to listen to the right hon. Member Is there scope for a second referendum within the time for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) this afternoon. scale, the end date of which is 31 December 2014? He encapsulated many of the arguments that have been Either way, I do not want a second referendum to be around Scottish politics for many years. I also want to called in the event of a narrow yes or no vote. The support the section 30 order, and in doing so I congratulate decision has to be clear and final, to avoid the kind of the Secretary of State on the way in which he has ongoing uncertainty that existed in Quebec following a conducted himself, not only during the negotiations but narrow no vote. That vote did not end the matter, and over the past few days. I am delighted that the hon. the separatists have come back again and again to try to Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) is in his place. get their way. Thankfully, they have not achieved it. He toured the media and the radio stations trying to There could be a similar danger here, and I would like provoke a negotiation before a decision had been made, clarification on what such a situation would mean for and the Secretary of State was quite right to say that we Scotland and the United Kingdom. would have the referendum and look at the decision On the timing of the referendum, I wish that we before moving to the next stage, whatever it might be. could just get on with it. I slightly disagree with my hon. The hon. Member for Moray should look at what he Friend the Member for Epping Forest on this matter, said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for although she was right to say that the longer the debate West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). When she asked goes on, the more the unsavoury consequences of separation him about nuclear submarines and the defence question, and the confusion of the SNP’s position come to light. he told her that no negotiation could take place until the country had made a decision.I hope that he will Mr MacNeil: This talk of uncertainty seems to be reflect on that over the next few days. unfounded, as many investors have come to Scotland in It is right that the Scottish Government should have the past year. Certainly, the only time I have heard the the right to make the referendum in Scotland. This is subject raised has been in the context of the US Government about the spirit of devolution and about this Parliament recently getting worried about the noises coming from handing over authority. That we are doing so calls into Conservative the party about leaving the European question the charge that is often made about Westminster: Union. Does the hon. Gentleman think that such talk that we want to keep control. This is about giving in the Conservative party should end? control away. I think that this Parliament should get 807 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 808

[Mrs Anne McGuire] Perth and North Perthshire later in the debate, he will give us some comfort and say that the SNP will not credit for being willing to hand over this responsibility, second-guess the Electoral Commission, but will work with no ifs, buts or maybes. That is the true spirit of with it in producing a question and a set of criteria that devolution. we can all work to and have confidence in. This debate has divided Scotland for most of my The Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee said political life. The pursuit and achievement of a separate earlier that the question preferred by the Scottish Scotland, to which the hon. Gentlemen from the Scottish Government was put to a series of independent experts National party are only too willing to commit themselves, who suggested that it was politically loaded. We cannot would take Scotland out of the United Kingdom. What go into a referendum debate where the question is motivates them above all else is their desire to see the politically loaded. break-up of the UK—the most successful political and social union. And yet, as we have heard from the contributions today, there is integration across the United Pete Wishart: Will the right hon. Lady remind me of Kingdom. There are Scots living in England, Northern the question that the commission that her party put Ireland and Wales, and there are Welsh, English and together with the Conservative and the Liberals came Northern Irish people living in Scotland. It is that up with? integration that is causing some of the complications—some would say anomalies—in who is entitled to vote. Mrs McGuire: I am not quite sure what the point of This Parliament must have respect for the Scottish the hon. Gentleman’s intervention is. Parliament, but respect is a two-way process. I beseech the hon. Gentlemen who represent the Scottish National party in this House to stop setting up Aunt Sallies by Pete Wishart: A Unionist commission was put together making out that Westminster is trying to do them to try to determine a question for the referendum that it down. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire thought was fair. Will the right hon. Lady remind me (Pete Wishart) is a serial offender. This morning, he what question it decided on? tried to suggest that the Labour Opposition might abstain in today’s vote. We have made it very clear from Mrs McGuire: That is a typical red herring being the beginning that we support the section 30 order. drawn across. We say that we want—[Interruption.] Frankly, it is not worthy of somebody who wants to be No. The Electoral Commission should be, and is to all a parliamentarian and statesman in Scotland to pretend intents and purposes, the independent arbiter. The Labour that other political parties are not being honourable in party when it was in government, and even the this matter. Mr Speaker may be interested to know that Conservatives, have accepted that if an independent he also called into question the impartiality of the arbiter is appointed, it is incumbent on the Government Chair. I hope that he does get to speak, because he to honour that public authority and take into account accused this House of being almost exclusively Unionist the views of that independent arbiter. in the people it calls and said that the SNP would get only 10 minutes. Well, the hon. Member for Moray I said that I would not speak for too long so I will spoke for 15 minutes earlier, so we have superseded the not. However, we cannot go into the next 18 months in aspirations of the hon. Member for Perth and North a spirit that is about beating each other over the head Perthshire. with arguments and counter-arguments that are sometimes I raise those points because if we are to spend the not even relevant. I ask all sides to come together and next 18 months talking about the future of Scotland, we have a robust, frank and mature debate with the Scottish must do so from a point of mutual respect and stop people. That is what the referendum campaign demands. throwing brickbats at each other and denigrating those I represent the constituency of Stirling which includes who do not agree with us. This is the most important the Church of the Holy Rude where the first crowned issue that most of us will ever face, not just for ourselves king of the United Kingdom—King James VI and but for our children and grandchildren, regardless of I—was crowned and became the monarch of the United which side of the argument we are on. A little mutual Kingdom. My area also includes Bannockburn and respect would not go amiss. Stirling bridge, and saw Rob Roy MacGregor and all the rest of the iconic figures in Scottish history.This debate, Mr MacNeil: Say something nice about us then. however, is not about the 13th, 14th or 17th century; it is about the 21st century. I am happy to give over, under Mrs McGuire: I will not even go there. The hon. a section 30 order, powers to the Scottish Parliament. Gentleman knows whether I want to say anything nice I voted for the Scottish Parliament and I want it to about him. He is a pleasant enough person outside the succeed. I want us to remain part of the United Kingdom, Chamber. Sadly, in the Chamber he tends to heckle and if we hand over that power, the Scottish Parliament rather than make positive contributions. has the responsibility to exercise it with maturity and I will move on to the issues that have been raised discretion, and to recognise that the current Scottish today. The first is the role of the Electoral Commission. Government do not represent all the views of the entire We need to have an independent arbiter on the wording Scottish people. Yes, we hand over that power—perhaps of the question and the financing of the campaigns. All not with eagerness but with some understanding of the sides need to have confidence in the process. That constitutional arrangements within the United Kingdom— means that it should not be subject to political interference but the responsibility is with the Scottish Government and that one element must not be able to overrule the to exercise that power with discretion and an understanding others. I hope that when we hear the hon. Member for of the multiplicity of views. 809 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 810

5.3 pm delivered the Calman commission and the Scotland Act 1998. Devolution was always supposed to be a Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is a great process. The 1999 commencement of the Scottish privilege to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Parliament was never supposed to be the full stop in Stirling (Mrs McGuire). She has just given 10 minutes this constitutional journey, which has continued. Crucially, of a wonderful speech that welcomed the section 30 however, it has continued only under the Scottish Labour order and highlighted the dangers ahead of us. It is also party. The Scottish National party has now taken control a great pleasure to take part in the same debate as my of the Scottish Parliament. What we have seen since right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South 2007—although more so since 2011—is a party that has West (Mr Darling). He gave a powerful and influential taken the wonderful institution that is the Scottish speech, which is why he is chair of the Better Together Parliament and turned it into little more than a talking campaign. I can think of no one better to keep the shop for the ruling party, with commanding majorities United Kingdom together. on its scrutiny Committees. We have only to think about I want to reflect a little on the speech of the hon. some of the Committees in this House to see how Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), powerful that scrutiny process can be in holding the who is no longer in his seat. He gave the House an Executive to account. I can think of numerous occasions historical canter through Scotland and its relationship on which that has happened, including a Backbench with England, and spoke of how parliamentary Chambers Business debate in the House last week—prompted by a and institutions hold people together and become the report from the Select Committee on Business, Innovation focal point of where people do things. It is worth and Skills—that changed the Government’s policy on reflecting that everyone in this Chamber who has an dealing with pub companies. That happened because of accent similar to mine or calls themselves Scots can go the power of the Committees in this House. abroad anywhere in the world, to the four corners of the globe, and chat to people from different countries who Gemma Doyle: Is my hon. Friend as concerned as I think that Scotland is already a separate country because am that the Deputy First Minister has today written a it has its own separate identity, dialect and history. blog piece, which is posted on a Scottish Government Indeed, constitutionally, being part of the UK means website—she has indicated that she will now do this that we can benefit as a country from being part of that regularly—in which she says that all Departments and Union, while also sharing the wonderful opportunities parts of the Scottish Government are now working on a that having a separate identity as a nation and being transition process? Is he as concerned as I am about the Scots brings. We should reflect on that; indeed, the hon. amount of public money—taxpayers’ money—that is Gentleman allowed us to do so. now being spent on a political campaign when it could Our consideration of this section 30 order is quite an be used to tackle Scotland’s shocking levels of long-term historic moment, because when we pass it this evening—and unemployment? when it is passed in the other place—it will go north to Ian Murray: I am delighted by that intervention, the Scottish Parliament, which will then have all the because it shows the entire raison d’être of the current powers it requires to run the referendum on separation. majority in the Scottish Parliament—a Parliament that I am pleased that that is happening today for a number was not designed for any one party to get a majority, as of reasons, but mainly because it is this party—the the right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce) Scottish Labour party—that is the party of devolution. said. Now that the SNP has the trust of the Scottish As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East people—who have given it a mandate through its majority (Margaret Curran), the shadow Secretary of State for in the Scottish Parliament—it is using all the power that Scotland said, one of the first Acts of the new Labour has been bestowed on it to deliver constitutional change, Government in 1997 was to bring forward the referendum rather than dealing not just with long-term unemployment, to allow the people of Scotland to decide whether they but with the absolutely shameful scenes of queues outside wanted the Scottish Parliament. food banks such as in my constituency. I would rather that the entire effort of the civil service and the Scottish Sheila Gilmore: One of the things I particularly remember Parliament were focused on those issues, not just on is that we had a general election in May of that year and dealing with the constitution. Many Members on the the referendum at the beginning of September—a piece Labour Benches who talk to their constituents on the of speedy action that the current Scottish Government doorsteps realise that the issues out there are far wider could do with emulating. than the constitution, which ranks very low down on the list of priorities of the people of Scotland. Ian Murray: I am delighted that my hon. Friend and The latest piece of devolution that we have in our constituency neighbour has made that point. We should hands today is the biggest question of all to be given to reflect on the fact—the hon. Member for Moray (Angus the Scottish people. Some have used the phrase, “a Robertson), the leader of the SNP in this House, mentioned referendum made in Scotland”. This has to be a referendum this in his contribution—that the SNP has been in not only made in Scotland, but by the Scottish people: existence for 75 years pushing this constitutional point, not a referendum concocted by the First Minister and but does not quite know the answers to the big questions the SNP, not a referendum that is to deceive, and not a now that they are being asked. With consensus from referendum that is unclear, ambiguous or a sham. That most Members in the House, the Labour Government is why consensus in the Scottish Parliament is so important. were able to proceed with the referendum speedily and In every major constitutional debate about Scotland in give the Scottish people their opportunity to decide this House and in the other place under the previous whether they wanted a Scottish Parliament. Government, we sought consensus. Consensus is the The process did not stop there, because it was those way to take devolution work forward and to provide of us on these Benches—the Scottish Labour party—who trust to the Scottish people. 811 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 812

[Ian Murray] We have seen the SNP Government espouse a nuclear-free Clyde, while changing their 60-year opposition to NATO. The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs commented They want a nuclear-free Scotland, but it is okay for a on that point in the report it produced last week, as the US submarine to sail into Faslane and launch a nuclear Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South weapon from Scottish shores. That is a ludicrous position West (Mr Davidson), mentioned earlier. I will not give a which is yet another fudge on the Scottish people. They précis of that speech for the SNP Members who staged are changing their own rules to suit themselves, and that a walk-out when he was speaking. The Committee’s is why they might change the rules of the section 30 report concluded that while the Scottish Parliament will order to suit the referendum. Mr Deputy Speaker, I have full powers to run the referendum following the sense that I may be ruled out of order shortly, so I will passing of the section 30 order, it should not just force say merely that the list is endless, and move on. through decisions using the SNP’s parliamentary majority, To emphasise what the Scottish Affairs Committee and consensus should be sought to make the referendum has said, the Scottish Government cannot be both fair, concise and conclusive. player and referee with regard to section 30. The Electoral I worry about that aspect. Can we trust—here is Commission has a vital role as an independent overseer another Scottish word for the Hansard reporters—the of the process that includes critical aspects of funding sleekit First Minister and the SNP to do what is in the and, most importantly, the wording of the question. best interests of Scotland, rather than what is in the best The commission sent an updated briefing to hon. Members, interests of the First Minister and the SNP? I think the and the first thing it says about the section 30 order is jury is well and truly out on that point. The track record that the commission will have responsibility at the of the SNP and the First Minister on a variety of issues referendum for assessing the intelligibility of the proposed in the past few months has cast doubt on their ability to question. That is a critical part of its involvement, and be fair, transparent and honest about the referendum this is where my discomfort lies. and the consequences for the future of my country. We The Minister deserves credit, along with the Secretary have had the First Minister’s confusion about whether of State, but he was questioned in the House more than he received advice on Scotland’s membership of the a dozen times during the debate on the Edinburgh European Union. We have had a flip-flop on what agreement about what mechanics would be used if Scotland’s currency would be. Would it be the euro, the the Scottish Government ignored the commission’s pound, or the groat? We have even had suggestions recommendations, and all he could say was that he was from SNP Members that we might even use the Chinese confident that the Scottish Government would do the renminbi in Scotland. We have had the First Minister right thing and that the Scottish people would judge taking credit when unemployment in Scotland has been their actions. The SNP’s track record on straight answers falling, but blaming everyone else when it has been about Scotland’s future shows that it has form in this going up. area, and it would be wrong not to put on record that that is a real concern. The commission has been involved in every election in recent history. Its involvement in the Mr McCann: Does my hon. Friend share my concerns AV referendum resulted in the question being changed about the head of the Scottish civil service? It has been on several occasions until it and the Government were accused in the past by many people of being native and satisfied that it was fair. No Government have ever refusing to speak truth to power. Is it not a concern overruled the commission, and the First Minister should that, when it comes to the referendum, it will not have not be the first to do so. This decision is the most the courage to speak up against the First Minister who important that Scotland has faced for 300 years, and controls all? that makes the role of the commission integral to the entire referendum process. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We The commission’s role is also integral to campaign are in danger. We are debating the section 30 order, funding. The order does not give any details about rather than the referendum. A lot of Members want to funding, so it will be dictated by the memorandum of speak, so I do not want to tempt Members on to agreement between both Governments signed as part of another subject. the Edinburgh agreement. The commission will make recommendations after a consultation, but the SNP has already indicated that it would overrule the commission Ian Murray: I will take your guidance, Mr Deputy on several points, including in respect of much lower Speaker. My hon. Friend has his remarks on the record. limits for businesses and unions to campaign, as my That issue will be a concern to many Members of this hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas House and to the people of Scotland. Sarwar), the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, I was going through issues on which I have concerns indicated. Those limits are much lower than those about the section 30 order, and what the SNP Government recommended for the AV and Welsh referendums in might do with it. I was talking about the First Minister respect of the umbrella campaigning groups and, as he taking credit for falling unemployment, but blaming also said—this point stuck in my head—even lower everyone else when it goes up. We have had the arc of than for local government elections. Those of us who prosperity with Ireland and Iceland, until they went have helped run those elections know how low those bust; then it was Norway, and now it is back to Iceland limits are for getting information out to electors and again. We have been told that Scots should not have voters, who deserve to have the information in front of taken part in Team GB, but the First Minister has taken them so that they can make an informed decision. The credit for the gold medals—indeed, some SNP Members people of Scotland deserve as much information as in this House play in the UK parliamentary football possible in order for them to decide whether Scotland is team. The issues are there for people to see. better together or separate from the rest of the UK. 813 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 814

Then, there is the question itself. The SNP has been welcome how that was achieved quite speedily through challenged time and time again to say whether it would negotiations. I pay tribute to all those involved in that abide by the commission’s recommendations on the achievement. question, but it has refused to commit to answering. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), the It is good that an agreement should be reached on an leader of the SNP in the House, was questioned four all-party basis. I accept that all parties here—at the end times during his contribution, and all he could say was of the day, all Members from Scotland—want to do that the Scottish Parliament would have regard to the what is best for Scotland. We obviously have different recommendations. Any SNP Member could intervene interpretations and opinions of what that means, but I now and say, “Yes, it’s a matter for the Scottish Parliament, accept that this is the overriding intention from all sides. but the SNP and the Yes Scotland campaign will abide Whatever our different views in the constitutional debate, by the recommendations, whatever they are, of the it is essential, as my right hon. Friend the Member for commission.” The fact that they have not done that Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, to conduct these debates sends out a very strong message that our concerns in as mature and inclusive fashion as we can, while about the question, with regards to the section 30 order, recognising the strongly held emotions and views on are not just valid but very real. both sides of the debate. It is critical that the commission’s recommendations That is because we need to recognise one important be respected, otherwise the Scottish people will not get fact—whatever happens in the referendum, the next the fair and transparent referendum that they ought to morning we will all get up in the same country, with the have. The section 30 order passes the power to the same people facing the same issues and the same problems, Scottish Parliament, and I am proud that the party with with the same strengths and weaknesses and probably a track record of devolution will be wholeheartedly the same weather, perhaps regrettably, as we had before supporting it. We will continue to scrutinise the process the referendum. Depending on the result of referendum, both in this place and in Holyrood to ensure that the of course, hundreds of thousands or millions of people decision is decisive, legal and fair. in Scotland will either be delighted or shocked by the result. If the vote for separation wins—the indication is Several hon. Members rose— that it will not, but nothing is certain—those who are strongly committed to the UK will be bitterly disappointed. If the people of Scotland vote to stay in the UK, many Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I who have campaigned for independence, in some cases remind Members that we are going to finish the Back-Bench for all their lives, will be equally bitterly disappointed. speeches at 6.30 pm, which allows each Member about 10 or 11 minutes. If some Members creep over that, The worst outcome for Scotland and rest of UK however, someone will drop off the edge, and that would be if the referendum were to be followed by a would not be fair. period of rancour and division rather than one where all in Scotland tried to make the outcome, whatever it 5.18 pm was, work as well as it could for both Scotland and the UK. If the result is a win for independence, it would, as Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ the Secretary of State pointed out earlier, be the duty of Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Scottish politicians who were against separation to make Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray). It makes sure that the new arrangements between Scotland, the me the third Edinburgh Member to take part in the rest of UK and the EU work as well as possible. debate—the other two have been around the Chamber, Equally, if independence is rejected, as I think it will be, so we might make it a full house by the end of the those politicians who have campaigned for independence evening, depending on the time available. should accept the result, urge all their supporters to do I welcome the fact that the agreement between the so as well, and make it clear that the result is, if not for UK and Scottish Governments on the section 30 order all time—I understand that people will not want to say was reached relatively speedily, because it would have for ever—at least valid for a generation, as has been said soured the debate in Scotland, if there had been continuing in the past. I hope that they will accept the result and disagreement—or, worse still, dispute, leading to legal not seek to overturn it at the first opportunity. challenge—over the terms of the referendum. It is right The tone of that post-referendum debate—and, indeed, and necessary that the referendum proceeds on the the tone before it—will be significantly affected by how basis of agreement between the two Governments and the participants and voters on both sides feel about the Parliaments. way the pre-referendum debate was conducted. If there It is certainly true, of course, that the Scottish is a feeling that the rules of the campaign have been Government were elected with a clear mandate to hold bent or twisted to benefit one side or the other, there a referendum on independence. If we add together the will be a much higher chance of the debate, both before minority parties, almost a majority of the electorate and after the referendum, being diverted into issues of voted that way. I recognise that, but equally, as one of process and becoming bitter and negative, rather than my hon. Friends said earlier, we in this House have a being one on the fundamental issues. That is why I mandate from the people of Scotland—a mandate achieved share the hope that the Scottish Government will approach just one year before the Scottish Parliament elections. the use of the powers devolved to them in as consensual All the parties put to the Scottish people their own a manner as possible, given the obvious differences constitutional programmes as part of their general election between all concerned on the fundamental issues. I manifestos. At that point, the results were somewhat believe that the SNP needs to make greater progress and different. It is right that there should be agreement—not to show a greater commitment to consensus on that just between Governments, but across parties—and I issue. 815 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 816

[Mark Lazarowicz] allowed to vote, while somebody who had been born in Scotland and whose parents left three days later would The ground rules need to be clearer in a number of be allowed to do so. respects, so let me spend a couple of minutes explaining There is also an issue of wider principle. If we move them. First, I strongly agree with colleagues about the away from the idea that voters in the referendum are importance of the Electoral Commission’s supervision those who have chosen to or, by birth, live and work in of the electoral rules, and I believe agreement on the Scotland and have made or are making a continuing question is essential. I can understand why the SNP commitment in Scotland, we inevitably move to a different leader here will not give a blanket commitment to basis for the franchise and a definition based on ethnicity, accept the Electoral Commission’s recommendations racial origins or something of that nature. Once we do whatever they say and in whatever circumstances, but a that, we can unleash, although I am sure that no Member much stronger indication of a willingness to accept intends that, all sorts of emotions and dark forces. In those recommendations would certainly have been welcome Quebec, for example, when the last referendum vote today. I hope that the SNP will reflect on that and was very close, some of those who supported Quebec recognise that, as the right hon. Member for Gordon independence objected to the fact that English Canadians (Sir Malcolm Bruce) said, flouting those recommendations took part in the vote. The SNP has, as a party—all might jeopardise their own case in the referendum as credit to it—accepted that its nationalism is based on a well as the nature of the debate. civic nationalism of those who live and work in Scotland. Certainly, fair rules are needed on spending limits; I That has contributed to the fact that, for the most part, will not go over the points that have been made on that. we have escaped some of the excesses that have existed Fair rules are also needed on how the civil service is in other countries when there have been nationalism used, and I endorse the comments that have been made debates. We want to keep it that way. on that. I accept that there are issues about people who have temporarily left Scotland for work—above all, the question On votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, I believe that some of the forces—which I hope the Scottish Parliament will of the practical difficulties can be overcome, but I do address in its decisions. not have time to go into those in detail. If there are to be Finally, I want to say something about whether we such votes, however, every effort should be made to give can trust the SNP in relation to its commitment to the all 16 and 17-year-olds the ability to vote. At one stage Edinburgh agreement. While I am as ready as any of my in the process, there was a suggestion that they could opt colleagues to wonder about the extent of its commitment in—apply to have a vote—but that would be a recipe for to the spirit as well as the letter of the agreement, I an undemocratic outcome and a lower participation rate. strongly agree with the right hon. Member for Gordon They should be added to the register either through the and others who have pointed out that in the event of normal process in October, or through a special canvass any blatant misuse of the powers devolved by the order, directed specifically at 16 and 17-year-olds to ensure the SNP—which supports independence for Scotland— that all of them, not just a select handful, can vote. would lose out in the referendum process and the The franchise issue has been raised by colleagues on referendum debate. We should bear it in mind that we both sides of the House. Although I understand some are devolving secondary-legislation powers to the Scottish of the questions raised about the agreement between Parliament, and that if those powers were blatantly the parties and the two Parliaments, ultimately the most misused, the issue would arise of whether they were consistent and logical way forward is to base the voting being used consistently with the powers devolved to it qualification for the referendum on that for Scottish under the Scotland Act. In that context, there could, in Parliament elections. Any choice of franchise has anomalies, the last resort, be a legal challenge. but that is the simplest solution. I understand the point I would rather the referendum had taken place by expressed by those who asked why Scots living outside now, and I would certainly rather it took place before Scotland should not be allowed to vote in the referendum, October 2014, but that date is not so far away now. I am but it does not stand up to much examination once we confident that, just as in 1997 the people of Scotland consider some of the practical difficulties. It sounds a made a mature decision to back the establishment of a good idea in theory for Scottish Olympic champions devolved Scottish Parliament, they will decide on this and medal winners living outside Scotland to be able to occasion to stand by the Union that has served Scotland vote, but why stick to those who won medals in 2012? well for more than 300 years. I look forward to their Why not include those who won medals in 2008 or having the opportunity to express their views in the 2004? Why not include Commonwealth games champions referendum, and then to build firmly on the success that from 2014 or 2010? The list goes on. devolution has proved to be since it was established in 1999. The issue of well known, leading Scottish football managers outside Scotland was raised. I suspect that 5.31 pm there might be Scottish football managers quite a long Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Thank you, way down the English football divisions and beyond. Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to Where do we draw the line on who is allowed to vote? participate in this important debate on the constitutional The suggestion was made—in all seriousness, I think—that future of Scotland. It is a pleasure to follow a Lothians people who were born but were no longer living in colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh Scotland should be allowed to vote. Again, that would North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz). I also welcomed involve anomalies that could not be overcome: someone the Secretary of State’s introductory remarks, and also who had been born in Germany to Scottish service those of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East personnel and their families, who came back to Scotland (Margaret Curran), who spoke with passion and for 40 years and then left Scotland, would not be determination. 817 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 818

Although the order is technical in nature and part of A further concern is the suggested extreme limitation a complicated statutory process, it is important for us on spending during the referendum campaign. The not to lose sight of the bigger picture: the kind of SNP Scottish Government have proposed an even lower Scotland in which we all wish to live in the future. sum than the Electoral Commission. That could endanger Scotland’s constitutional future is about the people of the ability of campaigners to communicate their message Scotland, and not about the machinations of the political effectively to the electorate. Meanwhile, the First Minister classes. It is therefore vital—especially given the divergence will retain his £1 million army of spin doctors throughout of views on the question of separation —for this process, the duration of the campaign. Foreign donations should and the eventual referendum, to be free of partisan be unacceptable, too. All these concerns could be kept interference. Of course the campaign itself will be intensely firmly in check through the Electoral Commission playing political, as is only right and proper in a democratic its authoritative and impartial role. system, but the statutory mechanism that affords that I believe voter franchise is important and take the opportunity must be free of undue influence on the part view that 16 and 17-year-olds should be allowed to vote of politicians from either Parliament. By supporting in the referendum—although I accept the questions the order, the House can ensure that the UK Parliament raised about the practicalities, and also believe that if plays its constitutional role by legislating and thus we do extend the franchise to that age group, we must providing the Scottish Parliament with the legal footing ensure that all 16 and 17-year-olds have the opportunity required to hold a referendum in 2014, although many to vote. However, I also believe Scottish armed services of us believe that it should be held earlier in order to personnel residing or serving outwith Scotland should end the ongoing uncertainty of Scotland’s future. As I be able to participate in the referendum. We have discussed have said, it is also of the utmost importance for these that point at length today. powers to be used with a great deal of responsibility, In conclusion, it is essential that the referendum and with the best interests of the people of Scotland in mechanism is determined by those who are outwith the mind. argument, namely the Electoral Commission. Such an The order guarantees that the referendum will be important and irrevocable decision must be clear of made in Scotland, and that supporters of separation opportunistic politics from both sides of the argument, will not be able to assign any blame to Westminster with in order to guarantee that the outcome is decisive, not any legitimacy or credibility if they disagree with its subject to drawn-out legal challenge and, most importantly, outcome. However, I and many other people are worried fair. I hope that, with these parameters agreed by both that the SNP Scottish Government may attempt to steal sides in the debate, the decision will be accepted by all, an unfair advantage through the way they set the rules. for the sake of our nation. Therefore, as we have heard time and again in our debate, the role of the Electoral Commission is crucial. It can act as an unbiased and impartial referee, as 5.39 pm opposed to Alex Salmond being both player and referee. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): It The involvement of the Electoral Commission would be is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for a significant step in ensuring that the referendum is fair, Livingston (Graeme Morrice); we all, in this House, legal and decisive. Without its involvement and, crucially, enjoy hearing him reading out his speech to such great the acceptance by all of its advice and guidance, I will effect. I turned up to this Chamber—[Interruption.] I remain unconvinced that the SNP majority in the Scottish managed to get through two sentences before, as you Parliament will not manipulate the situation for its own have noticed, Mr Deputy Speaker, the hecklers started narrow nationalistic ends. to kick in. Many people in Scotland have been watching There are some specific areas of concern, the first of today’s debate, and I wish the cameras could pan across which is the proposed question. An impartial body on to the hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches to should play the prime role in setting the exact wording show the ugly face of Westminster Unionism. I was on of the question, the answer to which could change the my feet for two sentences before the heckling started future direction of Scotland for ever. It will be the most and the attempts to shout me down began. Unfortunately, important decision taken by the Scottish people in over we commonly see that in this House. 300 years. The SNP has already attempted to use its majority in the Scottish Parliament to propose questions Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? it believes will deliver its desired outcome. Those questions have been deemed biased by the cross-party Scottish Pete Wishart: No, I am not giving way to the hon. Affairs Committee, as we heard earlier from its esteemed Lady. When I came here today, I thought that we were Chair. Reassuringly, this order highlights that there going to have a good, positive debate. I thought that we should be one question, to ensure the outcome is decisive, all agreed that devolving this power to the Scottish not blurred as a result of there being an additional Parliament under section 30 was a good idea, but what question on an as yet undefined proposition. have we seen? We have had such a sour debate today. We Without the input of the Electoral Commission, the have heard personal attacks, once again, on the First question of the referendum date could also be a concern. Minister—we do expect those. We have heard a surly The SNP Scottish Government have already delayed acceptance of the fact that the Scottish Parliament holding the referendum until autumn 2014, believing, I has a right to deliver this referendum—a thing both suspect, that the anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn Governments have agreed. I thought that today would will somehow stir the “Braveheart” feelings that the be almost a joyous affair, which is why it has been so SNP believes are latent in us all, but inciting the politics depressing to listen to one dreary speech after the of identity and ethnicity is neither a progressive nor next, and all the incessant and consistent negativity. modern thing to do in what is a diverse and multicultural [Interruption.] Here we go again, Mr Deputy Speaker. I world. really hope that the people of Scotland are watching 819 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 820

[Pete Wishart] Mrs Laing: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Scotland already stands tall and proud as a nation in this, because they have to see how Labour Members the world as part of the United Kingdom? respond to these debates. They are not interested in listening to the other part of the debate, and it is very Pete Wishart: Absolutely, and is it not fantastic and unfortunate that, again and again, we have to listen to fascinating that we have been able to achieve that? But these voices attempting to shut things down. I believe it let us imagine what more we can achieve. Let us imagine is a pleasure and privilege to speak in today’s debate. Scotland not getting involved in things such as illegal wars, not hosting weapons of mass destruction such as Jim McGovern: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell Trident but making a peaceful contribution to world us why his whole party disappeared and, presumably, affairs, and not doing what we have seen in the past watched the debate on television, rather than be here. 10 years. That is a Scotland I aspire to. That is what I think the Scottish people will choose once they have the Pete Wishart: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman opportunity to make this decision, and that is what is so was here at the time. I believe he is referring to the hon. exciting and so transformative about this whole debate—we Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), and I have the possibility and prospect that our nation can once was there for 20 minutes of his speech— again become independent and make its own role in the world. There is nothing finer than that as an ambition, Jim McGovern: On a point of order, Mr Deputy and I look forward to taking that debate forward. Speaker. I did not refer to any Member. Many people fought for that right. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) talked about Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is not some of the giants of the Scottish National party, who a point of order. Obviously, I am sure that hon. Members stood in this Chamber, exposed as we are continually are desperate to get on to the debate on the section 30 and consistently to the barrage of overwhelming Unionist order instead of picking each other off; I am sure that hostility—shouted down before we even get the first that is what we all want to hear. syllable out—but they still stood here and put the case for Scotland’s right to choose. I joined this party 20 years Pete Wishart: Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not ago, in 1993, and Labour used to joke about the slogan, know what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. If he “Free by ’93”—it was quite a good joke. Now it is 63% wants to have another go, I am prepared to give way to and 2013—that is the difference. My hon. Friend was him, but I had no idea what he was suggesting then. spot on: that has been achieved by the hard work of the Scottish National party Members of Parliament who Jim McGovern: It appeared to me that the whole inhabit these Benches and who have taken forward the SNP group disappeared earlier for quite some time, and case in the face of overwhelming hostility to and contempt presumably they watched the debate on TV. I did not for the idea of Scottish independence. They plugged refer to any other Member of this House being a factor away, they fought, they put the case and now they will in that. be rewarded with a real opportunity for the Scottish people to make the decision on their own. Pete Wishart: Yes, I was out of the House—we have been here for five hours, and Members come and go I want to pay tribute not just to the giants of our outside the House. I do not understand what the hon. movement who have fought so hard to achieve this Gentleman’s point is. result but to the ordinary activists—the people who turn up on cold, frozen Saturday mornings to hand out Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. It does not really matter leaflets and encourage people to put the best interests of whether somebody is in, out or indifferent. I am not their country first. They do that week in, week out. really concerned about that. I am concerned about this They include people like my constituent John Cullens, debate, and we all want to hear what Pete Wishart who died just last year, still trying to serve his nation. wants to contribute. He fought alongside me to try to secure electoral victory in Perth and North Perthshire and was so excited about Pete Wishart: Perhaps at last we can get on to the the prospect of a referendum for Scotland that he was substance of this debate. I was so looking forward to always the first there and always the last to leave. As debating this measure. Who would have thought that well as the giants of the party to whom my hon. Friend we would be here today confirming Scotland’s opportunity referred, let us remember the hard-working activists to determine its own future? We have the possibility and who have worked day in, day out to try to secure this prospect of Scotland becoming a self-governing nation result for our nation. once again, joining the community of nations and I want to congratulate both Governments and to pay making its own peaceful contribution to world affairs. tribute to the Minister, too, who worked exceptionally We have the chance to become a country of our own, to hard to deliver the Edinburgh agreement. I thought that make decisions for ourselves and to stand tall, with the Secretary of State’s speech was the best today by dignity, self-respect and pride, in the world. This is a far—it went way above any of the dreary speeches we fantastic moment, and I am pleased that we are here heard from those on the Labour Benches, with their today debating the possibility, through this order, of incessant negativity.It was good to hear from the Secretary Scotland achieving that very fine ambition. of State. I also want to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy). Mrs Laing rose— He made a thoughtful and non-partisan speech and was prepared to recognise some of the things in the Edinburgh Pete Wishart: Of course I will give way to the hon. agreement, including how we were prepared to make Lady—we cannot hear enough from her. progress. That is what the Edinburgh agreement was all 821 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 822 about: two Governments working together. Even though way as possible. He was right in his new year statement: there is a division between our strongly felt beliefs, we respect is the key element as we go forward, and I hope can still sit down together and come together for the that Labour Members in this House who still have a common purpose of ensuring that the people of Scotland contribution to make will respect that. get the referendum to which they are entitled and that It is fantastic. The Scottish Parliament will deliver a they deserve. Why can we not continue in the spirit referendum to the highest standard—a referendum that engendered by the Edinburgh agreement? Why can we not just the people of Scotland but people throughout not start to debate the possibility of both options? the United Kingdom will be proud of. It will be a model I paid tribute to the Secretary of State, but it was of transparency, fairness and propriety, informed by disappointing to hear his remarks over the weekend, consultation and independent expert advice. The rules when he said that he was not prepared even to consider will be fair for everything from finance to broadcasts some of the technical details of a yes vote in the and mailshots. The playing field has to be, and will be, referendum. Surely we owe it to the Scottish people to completely level. try to do some sort of preparatory work in case there is a yes vote— Jim McGovern: Will the Scottish Government adhere Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Perhaps to the independent expert advice of the Electoral I can help the hon. Gentleman a little. I am sure that he Commission? wants to concentrate on the section 30 order rather than trying to drag the Ministers into a debate on the outcome Pete Wishart: We do not know yet what the commission of the referendum. We are not going to do that. has to say. We will find out. The standards of the Scottish Parliament on these issues will be exactly the Pete Wishart: That is the point, Mr Deputy Speaker. same as those of this House. During the Scotland Bill, I think we should consolidate the good will that led to the Electoral Commission was given the task of testing the Edinburgh agreement. It is important that we start the question and making sure the rules were fair. If I to build on that. Let us see what we can do to try to can find the quote, its advice to the House might help ensure that that spirit of co-operation between the two the hon. Gentleman. The commission conceded that it Governments continues throughout the referendum process is for elected parliamentarians to decide. I have often so that we continue to serve the best interests of both heard Labour and Conservative Members say that the Governments. Let us try to make the debate as respectful Electoral Commission advises, elected Members decide. as possible. It happens in this House and it will happen in the Some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Scottish Parliament. Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) were unfortunate. He talked about bringing respect into the debate, so let us Anas Sarwar rose— do that. Let us stop referring to people as foreigners. Let us stop talking about border patrols. That brings no credit to our debate, so, please, if we can, let us leave Pete Wishart: I have already given way to the hon. that to the past. Instead, let us refer to people as friends Gentleman. and neighbours. That is what we should do throughout We will have a gold standard referendum. It will be to the debate. No longer foreigners, the people who live in the highest possible standards—a referendum we can the rest of the United Kingdom will always be friends all be proud of. Yes, of course the Electoral Commission and neighbours to me. Let us make sure that we continue has to play a role; it is probably the most important role to refer to them in that way. That is what the English in firming up the referendum, but it is right that directly people want, too. An Ipsos MORI poll showed that elected Members of Parliament and Members of the 64% of English people believe that there will still be a Scottish Parliament decide on the way forward. It happens common bond with Scotland following a decisive vote in this House and it is exactly what will happen in the in the Scottish referendum. That is great: it demonstrates Scottish Parliament. There will be no difference in that that the ties across these islands will endure and strengthen respect. following Scotland’s independence. One of the most exciting things for me is the prospect There are deeply held views and opinions, but let us that the Edinburgh agreement and the section 30 order make sure that the debate we are about to have is as will allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum. respectful as possible. People are friends and neighbours Members have probably heard me speak about that in the House, and we are friends and neighbours across before. It is absolutely fantastic that those with the the country; let us continue to refer to each other as biggest stake in Scotland’s future will have the opportunity that. Let us not have people described as foreigners, and to participate in probably the biggest electoral event in let us please not go anywhere near border patrols or their life. It is immensely exciting and we are all looking border posts. It does no credit to the debate. forward to it. I know that some Conservatives do not Anas Sarwar: No one on the Labour Benches used like the idea, but I think there is rough consensus the words “foreigners” or “border controls”. The hon. among the Scottish political community—perhaps grudging Gentleman rightly says that we should respect each among my Labour friends—that it is right for 16 and other as neighbours and friends in Scotland and in 17-year-olds to have the vote. England. I hope the same principle applies Scot to Scot. Next week, there is a Backbench Business debate on that issue, and I am sure that a number of my colleagues Pete Wishart: That is probably the most important will be rushing to back the Scottish Government and point the hon. Gentleman has made. It is the key; we the whole process of ensuring that 16 and 17-year-olds have to ensure that we refer to everybody in as friendly a get the vote. 823 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 824

Mrs Laing: If the hon. Gentleman really believes that It is great that that is now a matter for the Scottish it is right to widen the franchise to all those who have a Parliament. Select Committees are still looking at the stake in Scotland’s future, such as 16 and 17-year-olds, issue, but they are handicapped by the fact that they all why will he not accept that people who temporarily do approach it from a Unionist persuasion, so I do not not happen to live in Scotland have a stake in its future know how useful they are. They all take a strident, too and should have a vote in the referendum? antagonistic attitude towards Scottish independence, but some of them are more valuable than others. May I Pete Wishart: I listened carefully to what the hon. say ever so gently to the Members who serve on them Lady said about the issue in her contribution. Yes, there that Select Committees that cannot bring themselves to is a huge debate about who does, and does not, have the say the word “independence” will probably be treated opportunity to vote in Scotland’s referendum, which is with less respect than others? Yes, we are interested in right and proper. However, the line has to be drawn their views, which are noted, but for goodness’ sake let somewhere. us try to make sure that we talk about independence. There are no separate countries in the world. If Scotland Government Ministers, Labour spokespeople, members secures its independence, are these people trying to tell of the Scottish Government and MSPs have agreed that me that we will be the first separate country in the the fairest way to proceed is to have a franchise that is world? What a ridiculous proposition. The proposition all about the people who live and work in Scotland. To to my Labour friends is independence: that is what try any other technical assessment or way of doing ordinary countries try to secure and achieve, and that is these things would lead to incredible difficulties and what we will achieve in the autumn of 2014. problems. I am happy and relaxed about the position. There will always be losers in these things, which I Today marks the end of the formal role of this place accept, but I think that both Governments and both big in the whole debate about Scotland’s referendum. We parties in the House agree that this is the way forward. will continue to be interested in hon. Members’ views, There is no other way to do it. and I hope that they remain engaged with the issue and offer their opinion to Scottish parliamentarians, but It is unfortunate that some Scots feel disfranchised, they should note that today is the last day that this place but there will always be winners and losers when it will have a formal role in the matter. We now move on comes to drawing up lists of people who can participate to the substance of the debate. The process ends with in such a referendum. I am sure that, like me, the hon. the passing of the order. The people of Scotland will Lady is excited about the prospect of the youngest therefore face two propositions: they can have an Scots—perhaps her nieces and nephews—having the independent Scotland that is prosperous and successful, opportunity to participate in a decision on their future. which reflects Scottish values of fairness and opportunity, I can see that she is smiling, and agrees that it is a and promotes equality and social cohesion; a Scotland fantastic, transformative event, and an opportunity for with a new place in the world; an independent nation the youngest participants in our democracy. I visit participating fully in the community of nations. Or schools, like most Members in the Chamber, and in my there could be a no vote: more Tory austerity; government 12 years as a Member of the House I have detected an that we no longer vote for; a UK— increasing interest in Scottish politics among our young people. It is fantastic that they will be offered the most important choice in the referendum that they will ever Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The have in their young lives. hon. Gentleman is straying again, although I know that he did not want to do so. I also know that he did not Today marks the end of the involvement and role of want to abuse the amount of time that he has been the House in the formal process of Scotland’s referendum. given, and he will recognise that he has taken far more It is all over; it is finished. We are grateful for the time than he ought. There are three more Members who contributions from hon. Members, and we always enjoy wish to speak, and as he has friends in all parts of the hearing their views. Everybody in Scotland has given House, he will not want to deny them the opportunity serious attention to their considered opinions, particularly to speak. from Conservative friends—people in Scotland are hanging on their every word. I hope that hon. Members across Pete Wishart: We have had a six-hour debate and one the House remain engaged with the debate. side in the debate has had maybe half an hour of that, so with due respect, Mr Deputy Speaker, we have— Anas Sarwar: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I know the hon. Gentleman Pete Wishart: No, I have already given way to the is not questioning my ruling. I have come into the hon. Gentleman. Chair. I said to everybody that I wanted to try to share I do not think that MSPs can ever get enough of the out the time evenly and I did not want anybody to take hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). Her advantage of that. I know the hon. Gentleman would speeches should be circulated, to make sure that her never dream of doing that. All I am saying is that I am considered views are seen by other Members. Today, sure he is coming towards the end. He is not going to however, is the last day on which there is a formal role in get us into a debate on the referendum. I am sure he is the independence referendum for Members of the House about to wind up. of Commons, which is right and proper. Of course it is a matter for the Scottish people through their directly Pete Wishart: It is good that we get more than elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament. This 10 minutes today to put the case for the independence is what the Scottish national party was elected to deliver, side of the debate, but yes, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am and it would be disingenuous if we did not do so. winding up. Thank you very much for that. 825 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 826

We pass the order today, a section 30 order, based on tree that was given to us in the result in 2011. If it were the Edinburgh agreement. Based on two Governments up to me, we would do it much sooner than the proposed working together, we now go into the debate side of date of autumn 2014. things. This is what I and my hon. Friends have been However, many speakers in the debate have made the waiting for all our political lives. We relish a fight. We important point that we all share some trepidation know what Scotland will decide in 2014. It will vote yes about the motivation of the people who will receive the to independence and yes to full nationhood. power if the order is passed. Some people once mused that devolution would see off Scottish nationalism for Mr Deputy Speaker: Three more speakers. Ten minutes ever. Others thought that the voting system in Scotland each. I call Mr Michael McCann. was so cleverly devised that no single party would ever seize control, and certainly not the Scottish National 6.1 pm party. How wrong can you get? Those are possibly two Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and of the worst conclusions reached since Michael Fish Lesmahagow) (Lab): That must be the first time in the said in October 1987: history of Parliament that there have been 21 minutes “Earlier on today, apparently, a woman rang the BBC and said of non sequiturs in a single speech. The questions that she had heard that there was a hurricane on the way. Well, if were asked during the debate were not answered by the you’re watching, don’t worry, there isn’t.” hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete We have to remember that, until a few months ago, Wishart) at any point. For the first 10 or 11 minutes, I the SNP was still arguing that it had the power, without did not know what was going on. the amendment to schedule 5 going through this House, I support the order to devolve to the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. We also have to look at how it has the ability to hold a referendum on whether Scotland used its power in the Scottish Parliament—this is a remains part of the United Kingdom or becomes a perfectly valid point—since it gained an overall majority in separate nation. The most important words used by the 2011. It has ruthlessly shut down debate in the Scottish Secretary of State at the start of the debate were that Parliament and, unlike this place, where hon. and right the referendum must be legal, fair and decisive. On the hon. Members of whatever political hue are free and referendum’s legality and fairness, the House must recognise able to scrutinise the work of Government Departments that once we pass the order today, that responsibility on Select Committees, no such scrutiny is allowed in passes to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Scotland. For those reasons I am not filled with any Government. Most importantly, responsibility for the great hope that the SNP will not manipulate or attempt decisiveness element passes to the Scottish people. It is to manipulate the referendum to favour its preferred result. important that we recognise that. I want to raise a new issue, which is perhaps unusual Nobody can take away the SNP’s victory in 2011. In at this point in the debate. I hope that you will bear with political terms it was truly stunning, but that victory me, Mr Deputy Speaker, because it is an important was not about Scotland’s constitutional future. It was issue about the civil service. I intervened earlier on my about party politics. Perhaps in this month of January, hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian when we will celebrate our national bard, I should Murray) and made the point that the mechanics will be remind Members from the Scottish National party of handled by the civil service. Civil service powers have some words from “Tam o’Shanter”: not been devolved to the Scottish Parliament, but they will play a crucial role. “But pleasures are like poppies spread— You seize the flow’r, its bloom is shed; I hope that the Secretary of State will address two elements. First, questions have been asked about the Or like the snow falls in the river— permanent secretary and how he behaves towards the SNP A moment white—then melts for ever.” Government. We have to be assured that the people at That is what happens when fighting political campaigns. the top of the civil service in Scotland can give truth to Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose; but you do not power, and we must know that, if questions are raised stay in power for ever. about the legality or fairness of certain decisions, the All that changed because the SNP changed its political civil service will stand up to its political masters. Secondly, colours. Previously it was a political chameleon, taking there are 30,000 UK public servants in Scotland working on the colour of the territory it was fighting in. In 2007, for a range of different Government Departments. They it changed to a centre-left agenda, and continued that in have to have the ability to express their views in this 2011. In a perfect storm the SNP won a truly outstanding debate and be free to speak. I would therefore welcome result in the 2011 elections, winning an outright majority an assurance from the Secretary of State that those in the Scottish Parliament. The party that places a individuals will have that freedom and that it will not separate Scottish state in big letters and big bright impinge on their contracts of employment, under which lights—that is the reason for its existence—then received they have to be impartial in their duties as civil servants. the holy grail, a route map to a referendum on Scottish I hope that the Under-Secretary will touch on those two separation. The SNP has won the right to a referendum points when he responds to the debate. and we should not begrudge it that right because of its In conclusion—I hope you recognise, Mr Deputy victory in 2011. Speaker, that I have cut back my speech substantially—it This is an opportunity to put the issue to bed not just is important for the public, particularly the Scottish public, for a generation, as the First Minister of Scotland to recognise that all that this order does is devolve the wants, but for many, many generations. We should bear power for the next stage of this debate to the Scottish it in mind that the last time the issue was decided was Parliament. The date, the actual question and the rules 306 years ago come this May. It is my overwhelming of the referendum, including the financial rules, which desire that the fruits of democracy are plucked from the have been discussed by a number of hon. and right hon. 827 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 828

[Mr Michael McCann] decisions of this neutral referee. It is hard to escape the suspicion that it is following the mantra of British cycling of the ‘aggregation Members, will all be decided by the Scottish Parliament, of marginal gains’.” which is dominated by an SNP majority. The eyes of When the Chair of a Select Committee makes such a Scotland, the United Kingdom and, indeed, the world point about the importance of having a level playing will be on them—do not let us down. field and having an independent referee from outside the political process to advise on the wording and the 6.8 pm funding and to ensure fair play, it is incumbent on the Scottish Government not only to listen and “probably” Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- consider the matter—as we have heard—but to give a op): I have sat through the debate and listened intently. I clear commitment that they will abide by the Electoral have resisted the temptation—I have not risen to the Commission’s advice. bait—to jump up and intervene, although my patience was tested by the hon. Member for Perth and North In the past, I have been supportive of the idea of Perthshire (Pete Wishart). To start off with an attack on extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, Labour Members and then complain about people heckling notwithstanding the difficulties involved. I understand is not the kind of behaviour that those looking from the concerns that have been expressed by people in my outside want to see. I think that the majority of people own party and others, but we now have the opportunity in Scotland—who would have been watching this debate to allow young people in Scotland to vote on a matter had they not been following the Twitter feeds about, of fundamental importance to their present situation as and taking more of an interest in, our new Scotland well as to their future. In order to do that, however, we football manager—would have wanted to hear the much must deal with all the technical aspects involved in more positive tone that they would have expected when drawing up the register and ensuring that everyone aged we in this House actually agree on a way forward. 16 and 17 is able to participate without any arbitrary cut-off points or problems. That needs to be done As someone who campaigned for a Scottish Parliament, properly. When the section 30 order was first announced, I was and am proud to be part of the party that I asked what work had been done on this aspect of the delivered the devolution settlement and the Scottish process. This will be a matter for the Scottish Government Parliament, and, indeed, to have served in it for some and the Scottish Parliament to take forward. It would 12 years. During that time, I always believed that I had a have been helpful if we had been able to hear a bit more responsibility not only to my own political party and, of today about that positive work, rather than simply course, to my constituents first and foremost, but to listening to attacks on Labour Members, especially stand up for the interests of Scotland. those of us who have been supportive of that proposal. In the context of some of the things that are going on in the Scottish Parliament under an SNP majority A number of Members have mentioned the need to Government—something most of us thought we would build consensus. One reason why we were able to move never see—I must point out that it is rather ironic to see so quickly between the general election in 1997 and the the legal and educational establishments in Scotland referendum on the Scottish Parliament in September of beginning to feel that the fundamental principle of the that year was that political consensus was built. I hope uniqueness of the Scottish legal and educational systems that, as we take this debate forward following the passing is being undermined by that Government. I do not want of the section 30 order, we will see another attempt to to dwell on that point, but I want to place the debate in build such political consensus, rather than having to context. listen to more of the rather unfortunate language that has been used by some SNP Members this afternoon. This is an important debate, and it is right and proper that we should give the Scottish Parliament this This is not simply about a majority SNP Government responsibility to deal with the referendum. That is why I pushing through what they want; it is about representing regret the tone adopted by the hon. Member for Perth the people of Scotland. The SNP Government have to and North Perthshire. The people on the Labour side in recognise that, although they won a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament will take that responsibility the Scottish Parliament, that does not mean that they seriously, but they have some concerns, as do the wider can state categorically that there is a majority in Scotland public. That is why it is important that the role of the in favour of independence. Electoral Commission should be respected. Many people in my local area tell me that they voted I can understand that individual SNP Members might SNP, which they of course had the right to do, but that not agree with everything that the Chair of the Scottish they are concerned about the process of the referendum Affairs Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member and want to be sure that it is fair and above board. They for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), says. Irrespective also tell me that they may not vote for independence of their personal feelings, however, he has an important because they are worried about the economic circumstances role in chairing that Committee on behalf of everyone in Scotland and what might happen if Scotland were to in the House, and it would have been courteous of them separate from the rest of the UK. [Interruption.] to listen to his speech and take up their points with him, I hear chuntering, to use a word that was used earlier, rather than simply absenting themselves from that part from many of the SNP Members. I am happy to debate of the debate. the positive arguments for Scotland remaining part of Just in case SNP Members missed it, I want to refer the United Kingdom with the SNP in a proper context to one thing that the Chair of the Select Committee at any stage. However—and I hope that SNP Members raised. He quoted from the Select Committee report, and the Scottish Government take this on board—I which said of the Scottish Government: find it difficult to take that anyone who is seen to “Despite agreeing to the impartial oversight of the Electoral disagree with independence finds themselves subjected Commission, it has itself refused to commit to be bound by the to cyber-warfare through the Twitter feeds; or, if they 829 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 830 work in the voluntary or charitable sector, finds that It is a pleasure, as always, to follow my hon. Friend they receive a phone call; or, if they are a business, finds the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy that they do not get invited to the same circle of events. Jamieson) whose contribution had just the tone we This point is fundamental to the way in which the want in this debate as we go forward. These issues are debate has to be taken forward. I respect the fact that important to the Scottish people, and although there many people believe in an independent Scotland. I can be robust disagreement, they should be always disagree with that view and have come to that conclusion considered in a tone of respect. I do not think there is after a great deal of consideration throughout my political anything worth while in life that justifies treating one’s life, but I do not accept that people who have a different fellow human beings badly. opinion should not be able to voice it for fear of being on the wrong side of the Scottish Government and That takes me neatly to the contribution from the having to suffer the consequences. I plead with those on hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete the SNP Benches to do what they can to ensure that this Wishart). Until then, the tone of the debate had been debate is taken forward positively. reasoned, restrained and respectful. His contribution, however, had a sour tone, and I do not even know As I said earlier, it is important to meet what has been whether he is aware of that. No other Member of his described as the “gold standard” in the wording of the party consistently adopts such a tone in his contributions question that is put to the Scottish people. I think that in the House and other places on the estate. I do not the Scottish people who are watching this debate want know whether his unpleasantness informs his politics, to know that every one of us is trying to do our best for or his politics his unpleasantness, but he is rapidly the future of the country and our communities, and becoming the ReverendIMJollyoftheSNP.Itmay that we are not simply out to seek party political surprise some people that we have managed to debate advantage. It is unfortunate that much of the debate has the section 30 order for so many hours, but so many again focused on the misconceptions, misunderstandings, elements of this issue are important. Significantly, we mis-speakings and lack of information—or sometimes have spoken a lot today about the franchise. The hon. the completely contradictory information—around the Gentleman thought that we were being downbeat and Scottish Government’s position, for example on the currency rubbishing it, and criticising or not trusting the Scottish and on the EU. People are worried when the Scottish Government, but it is not about that. Government are unable to give a straight answer to a straight question. That is why I believe that we must I know that this challenge will be difficult and that it have the Electoral Commission as the independent referee. will not be possible to meet the aspirations of everyone We need it to ensure that the question is not only fair, who wants, through this order, to vote in the referendum. but is seen to be fair. It is, however, important that people who are Scottish, As many Members have said, it is vital that the and feel they are Scottish, know that the Parliament in outcome is accepted. Many people who did not agree Holyrood has done everything it can to make this a with the setting up of the Scottish Parliament expressed showcase for the world and the fair, exemplary example their view in the run-up to the referendum, but none the of a referendum that we all want to see. less accepted the outcome and tried to make it work, This referendum divides even my own family. My including many people who sat on the Benches opposite daughter lives in Scotland so that will be fine and she me in Holyrood. That spirit of the different political will have a vote, but I have three sons who were all born parties trying to make an institution work has perhaps in England but consider themselves Scottish. One lives been lost over the past few years. It would be regrettable and works in Brussels and he will have a vote, but the if that continued throughout the debate over the ones in Gateshead and London will not. I do not know referendum. whether there is a solution, but we must at least acknowledge I am grateful for the opportunity to make a few the issue. My sons still come home and often work in points this afternoon on behalf of my constituents, who Scotland and this referendum will change their lives and have concerns about the process and want to see that it that of my family for ever. Their not being able to vote is fair, and about the future of the Scottish Parliament. would be a frustration and a disappointment and all we The Scottish Parliament is a precious institution, for are doing today is urging the Scottish Parliament to do which many of us fought long and hard. We must not everything in its power to reach the aspirations of such see it undermined in this process. We are giving it an people. important responsibility and I trust that my colleagues there will do their best to live up to the expectations. I welcome the inclusion of 16 and 17-year-olds and However, I want to hear from the SNP in particular that would like them to be able to vote in every election in it is prepared to play fair and to ensure that there is a the United Kingdom. I am concerned, however, to level playing field throughout the process. ensure that all 16 and 17-year-olds have the right to vote and that no section is disfranchised. I remember the lessons of the poll tax. Some families were nervous 6.19 pm about putting their young ones on to the electoral register because of that tax, and I wonder whether some Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I am very parents—especially in poorer communities—might be pleased, and do not in the least begrudge sitting for nervous and concerned about the bedroom tax. This many hours, to have the opportunity to contribute to is not about talking down the SNP or the Scottish this debate. This is a truly momentous moment and I Parliament but about saying, “We are passing this over pay credit, as others have done, to those who have been to you. Please make every effort to ensure that every involved in negotiations to get us to the point at which 16 and 17-year-old has the chance to vote, and that we the House—I hope this evening—can sign off a section have the chance to engage with them throughout the 30 order and we can move on to the next phase. debate.” 831 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 832

[Fiona O’Donnell] Mr MacNeil: Whether or not Blair Jenkins said that last night, it has been known about for ages. It was The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire hardly an announcement coming uniquely from Blair spoke about the warm relationship that Scotland would Jenkins. If I tell the hon. Lady that the Scottish Government continue to have with the rest of the United Kingdom, will have 15 papers before the end of the year, is that an post the referendum and whatever the outcome, yet he announcement from the Member for Na h-Eileanan an mocked Conservative Members for daring to contribute Iar? I am just saying it. to the debate. I just wanted to say that he does not speak for the people of Scotland. The majority of us realise Fiona O’Donnell: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. that there are four nations that stand tall and proud to This is a man—not him, but Blair Jenkins—who kept make up this family of nations, each with its own saying, “Oh, I’m not a politician,” but then he turns up individual identity, like a tree in a forest, while under the on politics programmes and makes highly political surface our roots are entwined. comments. Let us not kid ourselves for one moment that this is someone who is independent or separate Anas Sarwar: Poetry! from the SNP. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South Fiona O’Donnell: Poetry in motion. That is a strength West (Mr Davidson) should not feel bad that he seems and a relationship that I believe binds these nations to have a problem in his relationship with the SNP. Let together. us remember that in the Yes campaign there has already I also want to talk about the timing of the referendum. been a trial separation between the SNP and the Scottish The order says that it can be any time before the end of Greens. As I recall, there are only two of them in the next year, but no one seems to have mentioned the fact Scottish Parliament, so the problem is less his and more that we might not have a referendum. I do not think we that of the Scottish nationalists. It is about the way they should rule anything out when it comes to the Government do their politics. in Holyrood. It may be that they find it inconvenient to Let me draw my comments to a conclusion. We have have a referendum at this time and try to find a way out, had a good debate today. It has set the agenda; or but I hope we will see the process through, because it is rather, it did not “set the agenda”—that would be arrogant time. I agree with the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye —but made some helpful suggestions to the Scottish and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) and my right hon. Friend Parliament about how the debate should be conducted. the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) Although I very much hope that the outcome will be the that it will not end there for the nationalists. They will right one, I also hope that we have a debate and a not say, “Well, that’s it. It over—it never happened for campaign that do not divide Scotland and Britain, Scotland”; it will carry on. However, it is different for because that would be in no one’s interests. those of us who believe in the family of nations. I do not think we will be calling for a referendum to take us back in five years’ time. That is perhaps the difference. 6.29 pm I do not exaggerate, but whatever happens, the next Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): morning a sizeable section of the Scottish nation will be The spirit of consensus has been a key characteristic of devastated by the result. We will have to pull ourselves today’s debate on the passing of this order. We support together. That is why the conduct of the election and the order, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow the process leading up to it, including the powers that East (Margaret Curran) has already said, and we support this order transfers to the Scottish Parliament, are so the fact that the Scottish people should be in the driving important: so that people can see that the process is fair seat and making the decision. However, a huge of and transparent. We should have the involvement of the amount of debate needs to take place before the people Electoral Commission as an independent body—of course of Scotland make the biggest decision on the constitutional we do not know what it will say: that is because it is future of our country since 1707. I pay thanks to the independent. It is important that we should seek the many groups and organisations that provide us with a advice of a body with such experience—and whose number of briefings, such as the Law Society of Scotland. advice no Government here have ever rejected—so that We have heard interesting and stunning contributions we have a question that is fair and does not lead to or from Labour Members: my right hon. Friend the Member prompt a response from the Scottish people. for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), my hon. Friends It is also important that, within the spending limits, the Members for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) the Scottish people should be allowed access to all the and for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), my right hon. information they need to make a decision. I do not Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), my think it should surprise people that the SNP has called hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh South for the amount to be lower than what those of us in the (Ian Murray), for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Better Together campaign are calling for. Indeed, Lazarowicz), for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), for East the boundaries between the Scottish Government and the Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), Yes campaign are being blurred day by day. Last night for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and we heard Blair Jenkins, the leader of the Yes campaign—the for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell). I will take some of chief executive—announcing that the Scottish Government the issues they have raised today and explore them a would be making various announcements in the lead-up little further. to the White Paper. Why did that come from someone My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South in the Yes campaign? That was an announcement for West spoke in support of his own Scottish Affairs the Scottish Government. There is blurring and, at Committee report and argued for the need for losers’ times, misuse, and we need to be vigilant about that. consent in this process—an important point to make. 833 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 834

He also argued that it is the responsibility of the losers Scottish Government pay heed to the commission’s to accept the result for a generation or more, as has recommendation. That argument has been well made been stated by the First Minister in the past. My hon. by my hon. Friends. Friend brought to the debate the question of whether I want to pick up some more points made during the the SNP can be both player and referee, and spoke of debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh the need for the Electoral Commission to be the only South West expanded on the need for a fair question referee. and the fact that the Scottish Government must accept My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central the commission’s view. My hon. Friend the Member for spoke about keeping his country together and about a Glasgow South West again talked about the weasel fight. I tell him this: it will be a fight, but I will be words from the SNP over its biased question and how it standing shoulder to shoulder with him. Rightly, he had no reason not to accept the commission’s view. He stated that a yes vote in 2014 will last forever. He also also confirmed that no self-respecting polling organisation highlighted that 45% of SNP voters do not support would ask such a question—no surprise there. My hon. independence and that often the SNP’s actions do not Friend the Member for Glasgow Central said that voters match its rhetoric. must have a clear question, that the commission should decide on the question and that it should not be for My neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for politicians to decide. We should respect the role and Stirling (Mrs McGuire) exposed the antics of the SNP independence of the commission. That way, the question and spoke of the need to carry the referendum debate will be seen as fair. forward positively on all sides—such comments have been made by many hon. Members, but have not always been delivered by the words that followed. My right Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? hon. Friend made the important point that, by our actions today, a great responsibility has now been placed Gordon Banks: If the hon. Gentleman can control his on the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. E numbers and sit down, he will have plenty of opportunity to get in later. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South spoke about how it was Scottish Labour that delivered My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South devolution and improved it. He expressed concern over expressed concern about attempts to sideline the commission the SNP’s control of the Scottish Parliament, and its on the issue of the question and challenged the SNP to singular function in and out of Holyrood to deliver accept the commission’s advice, but there were no takers independence rather than to address issues, such as at that point in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member food bank queues in his constituency. He also asked for Livingston also called for a question that was approved whether we can trust the First Minister and said that by the commission. the jury was out on the SNP Government’s ability to be fair—a view that I think is possibly shared by many Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Members on this side of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North Gordon Banks: The hon. Gentleman will have a and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) highlighted the concern contribution to make later, I am quite sure. that it will be damaging for Scotland if the days following The commission is extremely well respected, and no the referendum are filled with rancour. As my hon. Government or Assembly within the UK have ever failed Friend the Member for Glasgow South West said—I to reach agreement with it on such issues. [Interruption.] think my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North I am sorry, but the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an and Leith alluded to the same fact—the losers need to Iar (Mr MacNeil) is wrong. The Deputy First Minister accept the outcome of the referendum. He also called claims to hold the commission in high esteem. Why, for the Electoral Commission to take the role of the then, can she not give an unequivocal assurance that the referee in this process. Scottish Government will implement its recommendations? My hon. Friend the Member for Livingston reminded Particularly given that the Scottish Government are, for us that the Scottish constitutional future is really all the first time in the history of the Scottish Parliament, about the future of the Scottish people. He was unconvinced governing with a working majority, it is appropriate that the nationalist majority in Holyrood would not be that extra care be taken to ensure that the process is used to act in a partisan way. My hon. Friend the open and transparent. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow The order states that the referendum must be held sought assurances on the role of the top civil servant in before the end of 2014. The Opposition, as well as our this process in Scotland and how the civil service must colleagues in Holyrood, had hoped that the Scottish not be silenced for doing its job. I will come back to that Government would bring forward that date in order to point. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock end the uncertainty over Scotland’s constitutional future. and Loudoun called for a reasonable and respectful Frankly, we could be forgiven for thinking that after debate, and respect for the Electoral Commission’s role—a 80 years the SNP would be ready to put this to the strand running through many contributions from Labour ultimate test—the test of the Scottish people. It is Members. She also referred to the lack of support for surprising that it is so reticent. Without doubt, it would the commission coming from the SNP. The burden be in Scotland’s best interests to have this decision made being passed to Holyrood is great. Our devolved Parliament as soon as possible, but the Scottish Government appear must prepare a Bill that presents the people of Scotland prepared to take it to the wire. It is therefore essential with a clear choice: whether or not to separate from the that in that time we show the benefits of remaining in rest of the UK. There can be no fudged question with the most successful political and economic union the undue bias. In the light of that, it is paramount that the world has ever seen. 835 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 836

[Gordon Banks] hon. Friends have argued in the debate—not just the attainers, which would be an unacceptable cop-out. The Funding is another issue that has been addressed in impact of the shift from household to individual voter the debate. My hon. Friends have made valid contributions registration, which will be going on at the same time, on this issue, and I want to pick up on them now. My should also be recognised. My point to the Scottish hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East raised the Government, then, is: “So do it, yes; but do it right.” issue of a 1p spend for each voter in Scotland—and you I visit schools in my constituency as often as I can. know what you get when you spend a penny! My right On Friday last week, I met a small group of sixth-form hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West, pupils in Alva academy. When I raised the issue of 16 to however, said that to secure a respectable turnout and a 18-year-olds voting, the merits of the idea were discussed. clear decision we need to spend money. That was further I was heartened to be told by one pupil that she was amplified when he advised us of the turnouts in Quebec desperate to get the chance to vote: she wanted to vote, in 1980 of 85%, and in 1995 of 93.5%. He also spoke she was committed to vote, and she could not wait to go about the importance of the commission playing a into the ballot box to show her support for Scotland continuing role, but he expressed his doubts about how within a strong United Kingdom. the permanent secretary in Holyrood might be restricted It is essential that Scotland’s future is decided by the in ensuring that the Scottish Government, in the regulated Scottish people through a referendum made in Scotland. period, play a neutral role. We all share his concern. The future of Scotland is too important for any party to It is crucial that both sides of the argument are able play games with, and I hope the Scottish Government to fund their campaigns effectively, but it should be will listen to this debate and understand that they must clear that funding should not be rigged to benefit one put any thoughts of their own individual ambitions side to the detriment of the other. To have a referendum aside and do what is best for the Scottish people. on the future of Scotland within the UK, but with This must be a fair, legal and decisive referendum, businesses and unions limited in their ability to campaign and for this to take place the Scottish Government must by imposing lower spending limits than the Electoral accept the findings of the Electoral Commission. The Commission recommended, and to have a referendum burden of responsibility that has been placed on the on the future of Scotland within the UK but with far Scottish Government is, as I have already said, great. lower spending limits for the umbrella campaign groups They must show respect to the Scottish people, do right than was recommended by the Electoral Commission by the Scottish people and put any desire to create the and that were in place for the Welsh referendum and the rules for their own advantage to one side. To do anything AV referendum: these will both be seen for what they less will damage Scotland and the Scottish Parliament’s are. In short, to have the Scottish Government as a international standing, which would be intolerable. referee and player will in itself be seen for what it is. The eyes of the world are watching Scotland and we Labour Members feel that the Electoral Commission have a right to expect the Scottish Government to act in is the most appropriate body to deal with these the best interests of Scotland in providing a fair and arrangements, and we are happy to be bound by its transparent referendum process. The First Minister can proposals. It is the body best placed to offer independent do this, or his Westminster colleagues can do it here advice on such matters. We heard a contribution from today. It is simple: agree to accept the proposals of the my parliamentary neighbour the hon. Member for Perth independent electoral expert in the UK—the Electoral and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) in answer to a Commission. This is the standard that I believe the question about whether the Scottish Government would people of Scotland have set for the Scottish Government, accept the Electoral Commission’s advice. His answer and they cannot be allowed to fall short of it. was, “Yes, yes, probably.” I am prepared to sit down to allow him to intervene to take away the “probably” and leave the “yes, yes”. No takers? There’s a surprise. 6.44 pm The Scottish Parliament is now ingrained within Scottish The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland culture, and it has matured as a legislature. I believe that (David Mundell): We have had a full and wide-ranging it is the feeling of this House that it is not for the debate. I never doubted that we could fill six and a half Scottish Government in isolation to decide how to hours with contributions from across the Chamber, present the referendum to the people of Scotland. The representing parties across the political spectrum and, Government must recognise that the people of Scotland importantly, constituencies across the United Kingdom. deserve nothing less from their Government than an At Scotland Office questions, I said that I am never open, balanced and transparent referendum process. surprised by the actions of the Scottish National party, From this day forward, it will be unacceptable to the but I must admit that I was surprised that SNP Members people of Scotland if the SNP uses its majority status in left their Benches empty for a significant part of today’s Holyrood to railroad through unfair outcomes on the debate, and did not listen to the contributions and views question, funding and overseas donations. Indeed, on of others, even if they did not agree with them. The this matter, the First Minister could do worse than take hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) started the the sound advice in last week’s report of the Scottish debate well for the SNP with what could almost be Affairs Select Committee. described as a statesmanlike contribution. However, the There is so much more to discuss, including the day, SNP must recognise that the tone and behaviour of the the extended length of the regulated period and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete extension of the tariff to 16 to 18-year-olds. Let me say Wishart) and the somewhat erratic behaviour of the a word or two on this final matter before I finish my Member representing the Western Isles lead people to remarks. If 16 to 18-year-olds are to be included in have concerns about how the SNP majority in the the franchise, it must be all 16 to 18-year-olds, as my Scottish Parliament will take the matter forward. 837 Constitutional Law15 JANUARY 2013 Constitutional Law 838

The order that we are debating today is of the utmost referendum law that would otherwise be outside the constitutional significance. The right hon. Member for Scottish Parliament’s competence can be included in Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) set exactly the the referendum Bill, such as the rules governing campaign right tone in his contribution on the context of the broadcasts and mail-shots. It will also make the Scottish debate and the political history of Scotland that has led Government and Parliament responsible for setting the us to this point. The order paves the way for a legal, fair detailed rules and regulations governing the referendum. and decisive referendum that will determine Scotland’s That is an important responsibility, and, as more than future: whether we will be a Scotland that affirms its one Member has observed, one to which the world will commitment to this, our United Kingdom, or whether pay close attention. The Deputy First Minister said that we will be a Scotland that chooses to leave the greatest the highest international standards would apply to the political, economic and social union that has ever existed. referendum, and we shall all be holding her to account. I make no apology for putting my point of view strongly The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West and passionately in this debate, and it is clear that (Mr Darling), who has already played and, I believe, others will also do so. Although we are discussing process will continue to play an important and increasingly today—the legal mechanism to provide the Scottish decisive role in the forthcoming campaign, pointed out Parliament with the power to bring forward a referendum that the Scottish Government would have to respond to Bill—that process will result in the most important the advice of the Electoral Commission on the wording decision that people in Scotland will ever be asked to of the question and the setting of the various spending take. Separation will not be for Christmas 2014, but for limits for the referendum campaign. I look forward to ever. That is why the process has been debated so hearing the Scottish Government’s rationale for the comprehensively, not just in this House but between the spending limits that they have devised. Apart from the Governments in the run-up to the Edinburgh agreement, argument that people do not like money to be spent and will continue to be debated by parties in the Scottish during elections, I have heard no rationale that challenges Parliament. the established limits set by the Electoral Commission. To answer an intervention from my hon. Friend the It is important that we, and all who will participate in Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and to refute the referendum, understand the reasons for the proposed directly some of the comments of the hon. Member for financial limits. Perth and North Perthshire, Members of this Parliament If the Scottish Government choose not to accept the will still have a role in that debate and will be entitled to Electoral Commission’s advice, they will have to justify contribute to it. The issues can still be debated in this their decision. As a number of Members have pointed House of Commons and the other place. Our electorate out, the UK Government’s position is clear: they have in Scotland would expect nothing else. never failed to accept Electoral Commission advice on a The order ensures that the referendum will be legal, referendum question. The Scottish Government will and that is why we are delivering the section 30 order. I also have to specify the franchise for the referendum, am pleased that the Scottish Government now recognise and if they choose to extend it to 16 and 17-year-olds, the importance of doing that. The referendum must be they will have to answer the important questions about fair—and it must be seen to be fair, as many Members data protection and access to the register for information have said. At the end of the process, no side can be relating to minors to which my hon. Friend the Member allowed to cry foul—a point that the Chairman of the for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) referred. In turn, it will Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Glasgow be for the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise the Scottish South West (Mr Davidson) made in his usual colourful Government’s legislation. It will have to examine all the way. The debate must be conducted on a basis of well proposals carefully. established principles, which have applied to referendums Members have expressed concern about the current held across the United Kingdom, by successive UK operation of the Scottish Parliament. Like the hon. Governments, and which both the Scottish Government Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and the UK Government put their names to when they and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), I was once a signed the Edinburgh agreement last October. The process Member of the Scottish Parliament. At that time, when must produce a decisive result. Labour was in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats Businesses up and down Scotland tell me that they and had a majority in the Parliament, it was always want to get the issue resolved once and for all. They members of the Scottish National party who feared want to get on with concentrating on rebuilding Scotland’s that their views might not be given due weight because economy, to focus on jobs, housing, and people’s real there was a majority Government. I expect them to concerns. The Government want that too, but we accept behave now as they behaved then in speaking up for that following the May 2011 election for the Scottish minority views and ensuring that they are heard in the Parliament, the question of independence cannot be Scottish Parliament. I want them to make us confident ignored. We must address the issue, and we must answer that the Bill will be debated in a way that takes account the question: do we want to stay in the United Kingdom of the views of all the people of Scotland. However, I or do we want to leave it for ever? myself am confident that my colleagues, Opposition The order will ensure that the referendum can take Members and our Liberal Democrat coalition partners place. As the Secretary of State said in his opening will be able to hold the SNP Government to account as remarks, it will ensure that the referendum contains a the Bill is debated, in order to ensure that the referendum single question about independence, and that there will is legal, fair and decisive. be no second question or second referendum to cloud The memorandum of agreement signed by the Prime the issue or prevent a clear result. It will ensure that the Minister, the First Minister, the Secretary of State and referendum can be held no later than the end of 2014, the Deputy First Minister on 15 October was an important and it will ensure that important aspects of normal first step. That was an important moment not just 839 Constitutional Law 15 JANUARY 2013 840

[David Mundell] To those who asked what would happen if the Scottish Government did not follow the advice of the Electoral because of the agreement that had been reached, but Commission, I say this: the people of Scotland will not because of the very public commitment given by Scotland’s take kindly to being played for a fool. Public trust is a two Governments to ensure that the referendum would precious commodity and, as the First Minister discovered meet the very highest standards, and that party politics following his recent comments on the EU, it can be and passions on both sides of the debate would not quickly lost. I say to Alex Salmond, “Ignore the advice intervene in the establishment of a legitimate and fair of the Electoral Commission at your peril.” process. It will be for both sides to stand by and live up We have not heard about process alone in this debate. to the agreement, and the UK Government give that We have also heard about why this order matters. It commitment unreservedly. matters because people want to get on with the real There are clearly strong feelings in the House about debate. Not only politicians, but ordinary people in 16 and 17-year-olds having a vote. As has been said, Scotland, and each and every one of us who will be there will be a debate in Backbench Business Committee asked to cast a vote, want to hear about the real issues. time next week, when Members will be able to discuss It is perfectly legitimate for the UK Government to the topic in more depth. I believe any decision by the set out Scotland’s current position within our United Scottish Government to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to Kingdom in a series of papers, which we will do this vote will not achieve a partisan objective, as I am year. The hon. Member representing the Western Isles confident that when the votes are counted we will see tells us we will have 15 papers from the Scottish that support for remaining an integral part of our Government. We look forward to that, but I hope they United Kingdom comes from young and old alike. shed more light than anything we have heard from them so far. Fiona O’Donnell: Does the Minister share my pleasure The agreement reached between the UK and Scottish in the latest poll result, which included 16 and 17-year-olds Governments will ensure that a referendum on Scottish and showed that the Better Together campaign currently independence can take place. The section 30 order we has a 20-point lead? have debated today ensures that there will be a single- question referendum on independence before the end of David Mundell: I was very pleased to see that, but I 2014. The memorandum of understanding ensures that am not complacent and all of us who support Scotland’s the referendum will be based on the principles set out remaining part of the United Kingdom must get out for referendums held across the UK. Together, the order and about in Scotland, under the leadership of the right and the memorandum mean that we can have a referendum hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, and make that is legal, fair and decisive. I believe we are better sure we get our message to all parts of Scotland. together in the United Kingdom than we would ever be The hon. Lady made a point about 16 and 17-year-old apart, and I commend the order to the House. sons and daughters of servicemen. The hon. Member Question put and agreed to. for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) and others stressed the need to allow our servicemen and women and their Resolved, partners to vote, and there are procedures in place for That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) that, but there are no procedures for their 16 and Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 22 October 2012, 17-year-old children. The Scottish Government must be approved. address that matter. There has been much consideration of the Electoral Business without Debate Commission, and all Members who spoke about it—apart, perhaps, from those on the Scottish National party DELEGATED LEGISLATION Benches—made it clear that they would accept the views of the Electoral Commission, even if it did not Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing adopt their party’s position on the referendum question Order No. 118(6)), and funding. We should all welcome the fact that under this agreement the Electoral Commission will play a PUBLIC BODIES role, because only a few months ago the Scottish That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Government did not wish the Electoral Commission to Committee) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on play any part in the referendum, and wished instead to 29 October 2012, be approved.—(Mr Evennett.) set up their own electoral commission. Question agreed to. 841 15 JANUARY 2013 Remploy Marine Fife 842

Remploy Marine Fife 40,000, an increase of more than 25% or 30%. That is easily achievable in the existing factories. The design is Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House selling not just in this continent, but worldwide and do now adjourn.—(Mr Evennett.) there is a market that I know can be extended over time. Of course, the assets are not only physical assets—the 7pm ability to produce a large number of goods—but that of Mr Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) our having managed to approach two prospective buyers (Lab): I rise on behalf of myself, my hon. Friends the who are interested, in certain circumstances, in purchasing Members for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas the factories and who would be prepared, if the conditions Docherty) and for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy), and, I were right, to take over the factories and ensure that, believe, the whole communities of the county of Fife to after a short period, they are viable. urge the Government to save the jobs, the work programme What is the problem that has to be solved? It is clearly and the marine business of the Remploy factories in this: the financial viability of these factories is incredibly Leven and Cowdenbeath in Fife. The two factories, set difficult in the current circumstances, given that they up in 1948, have been part of the industrial fabric of have had losses of £1.6 million and, we expect, will lose Fife for six decades. These factories, like those in Dundee, about £800,000 this year—they have halved their losses, which is represented here today, Stirling and other parts but they are still substantial losses for two small factories— of Scotland and the United Kingdom, have trained and and given that they have fixed costs as well as overheads employed thousands of workers with disabilities over and raw materials that mean that the input costs are the past 60 years, who have found confidence from very high indeed. Rents and rates are £57,000 or so and working in these units. As I will show in a minute, these they pay £200,000 in central administration costs, which factories in Fife have an order book and an established could be reduced but not entirely eliminated, as that product that people want to buy. Indeed, the order figure covers insurance, payroll and a number of book could be rapidly extended in the right circumstances unavoidable administrative items. They need to buy in and, as I will also show, two prospective buyers have materials, obviously, at a major cost of £800,000 for the indicated to me and to my hon. Friends the Members factory. That cost can be reduced significantly over the for Glenrothes and for Dunfermline and West Fife that next few years, but it will not be reduced overnight they would be interested in purchasing the factories. unless we can take extraordinary action. I am pleased that the Secretary of State, as well as the We have a product that people want to buy, a market Minister, is here this evening. These factories cannot be that could be expanded, a sophisticated good that is expected, in current circumstances, to be able to move world leading and an order book that is full—of course, from making a loss of £1.6 million two years ago and a the buyers would be prepared even now to extend the prospective loss of £800,000 this year, to overnight orders beyond the date they have been given—but the financial viability under the Government’s proposals, costs have historically been high and so, before even a even with the subsidy that is on offer for a short time. I penny is paid in wages, the factories are having to fork want to show the Government why they have to be out more money than the sales revenues they receive more flexible in ensuring that jobs that can be saved and from their goods. That is the problem we have to should be saved are actually saved, and that these address. privatisations do not become either the liquidations of Of course, the terms on which the Government will factories in Leven and Cowdenbeath, as has happened sell the two factories allows a buyer to come in and offer in so many other parts of the country, or the decimations less than £1.2 million, which will be the cost of redundancy. of the work force. They also need to ensure that that It is possible that someone could take the factory off does not happen at one of the most difficult economic the Government’s hands and be paid about £1 million times and in circumstances where the most vulnerable to do that. The problem, however, is that that redundancy workers need our support. cost might at some time have to be paid out and no We could talk about the general history and the responsible person would tell the buyer that they should policies being applied to Remploy, but I want to talk not safeguard against the possibility that the redundancy specifically about Fife, and about Leven and Cowdenbeath costs will have to be paid. We must come up with in particular. I wish to suggest that the Secretary of something better. State and his Minister join a meeting with the Scottish I say to the Minister and the Secretary of State that Government and the council of Fife; this should be a the £6,400 subsidy that is on offer for three years—an tripartite group that works together to devise a plan average of about £2,000 a year, although it is about that gives financial viability over a period of months to £4,000 in the first year—cannot overnight eliminate these factories, which we accept the Government are losses that were more than £20,000 per employee two determined to sell on but which, in my view, could be years ago and are probably about £12,000, £13,000 or saved. £14,000 per employee at the moment. The idea that a Why do I say that? I do so because the assets of the subsidy that averages £2,000 can eliminate the shortfall two factories, which I have known for 30 years, are not overnight is impossible. Today, I talked to the Minister just a loyal, dedicated and committed work force, who in the Scottish Parliament, Mr Fergus Ewing, about have made enormous sacrifices over the past year—the what he can do to help. My view, and that of my wage bill has been cut by 30% from £1.6 million to colleagues and Fife council, which has also been involved, £1.1 million—but a product that is well established is that there is a way forward for a viable product, that across the world as one of the most successful and the Government should try to make these two factories sophisticated products available for marine safety. The work and that they need to give them the time that is factories are producing 30,000 of these garments each necessary to achieve viability. The employment support year, and I am told that they could easily move to that should be on offer must be greater in this case than 843 Remploy Marine Fife15 JANUARY 2013 Remploy Marine Fife 844

[Mr Gordon Brown] The price of failure is that large numbers of people will lose their jobs, but success could be achieved by all the average of £2,000 a year. That is simply inadequate the parties working together—the UK Government, the to bridge the gap between the current losses and the Scottish Administration and the Labour-led council. financial viability that is obtainable. That could mean that at least two of the units that at The Scottish Parliament is prepared to pay £5,000 per the moment most people would say are more likely to disabled employee over a period of 18 months. That fail than succeed could be brought into viability to would make a difference and I welcome it. I know that extend their output and create more jobs in a community Fife council is prepared to do more, because it has an that desperately needs them. I hope that the Minister employment fund to help people secure jobs. If we are will also listen to my hon. Friends the Members for to save these two factories, which I have known for Glenrothes and for Dunfermline and West Fife. 30 years and which do spectacularly good work, we need the Government, the Scottish Administration and 7.11 pm Fife council to come together. I urge the Minister to consider this proposition. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I have a Remploy Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) on securing this vital debate. factory in my constituency and we have set up an action I fully endorse the thrust of his argument and commend group composed of MPs, MSPs, elected local councillors his analysis of the key issues that face us in securing and so on. May I urge my right hon. Friend to use his Remploy’s survival and possible viability. good offices to ask Fife council to contact Dundee I plan to underpin the case for a more flexible, council to see whether we can work together to form generous and co-ordinated approach in the transition some sort of co-ordinated rescue package? to financial viability by providing some additional detail. The Fife work force provide outstanding service, well Mr Brown: Of course. The cutting equipment that is above and beyond the call of duty. They are not shirkers. necessary for the raw materials that produce the Remploy Marine’s order book is full. As my colleague manufactured goods in Fife is in Dundee. If a rescue is said, their lifejackets meet international standards; they going to work, there must be some relationship between go to places such as Norway, Denmark and the USA. what happens in Leven and Cowdenbeath and in Dundee. They are at the forefront of the manufacturing we want We will follow up my hon. Friend’s suggestion about a to retain in this country. meeting between Fife and Dundee. The employees take pride in their work, and are I urge the Government to agree to hold a meeting, making a significant contribution to wealth creation. preferably in Fife, with representatives of the Government, Through their initiative and enterprise, they have cut the Scottish Administration, who have agreed that they their deficit in half, as we would expect from a work will attend such a meeting, and Fife council, who will be force so dedicated to continued employment. They have there, to see whether the combination of what is on an entrepreneurial spirit. There is a full order book. The offer in employment support can achieve the financial workers want to boost our diminishing manufacturing viability over a short period of time that is essential if base and extend our overseas market. They remain this product is to be produced in Britain. It will be sold determined to succeed. It is a golden opportunity. and made somewhere, so the only question is whether it In an authoritative report, Scottish Enterprise states will be produced in Britain and not, as is likely, in Asia that or elsewhere in the world. “high growth rates are forecast, despite the underdeveloped sales The price of failure is that 50 or more Remploy channel.” factories will move from privatisation to liquidation. If Nearly all the Fife production goes to one distributor, they do not move to liquidation, it will mean the decimation who makes a healthy profit from the Remploy brand. of the work force. I know that large numbers of people As I said, the export market is extensive, and much employed in Fife will never work again, despite the more could be achieved through diversification. employment support that is available. We will be throwing As my right hon. Friend said, a one size approach away the opportunity to make a viable product, which does not fit all. The Government’s support package is with help to make it financially viable is one that people entirely inappropriate. Remploy Marine has real strengths will be prepared to buy not just in this country but and potential viability, given the right support package. around the world. That is why we want joint working and a co-ordinated approach, with effective leadership, between the Scottish Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I Government, the UK Government, Fife council and congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on bringing the any other important partners. issue to the House. I highlight not just the £5,000 the Scottish Government have committed over and above Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I am the support from the Department for Work and Pensions, most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I but also the support through Scottish Enterprise for thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy potential bidders. There could be a whole package of and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) for securing the debate. measures if people work together. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes recall that when he was elected in 2008 the unemployment rate Mr Brown: I hope there is financial support from for disabled people stood at 9%, whereas now it is 12.3%? Scottish Enterprise. I have not yet seen it. An 18-month Is there not a duty to more than half a million disabled subsidy will not be adequate to bridge the gap between people who are out of work for every tier of government the losses incurred at the moment and financial viability. to do everything possible to help save those jobs? 845 Remploy Marine Fife15 JANUARY 2013 Remploy Marine Fife 846

Lindsay Roy: Absolutely. I am very grateful for that know that the county of Fife has such a warm place in contribution. That is entirely the case that we are making. the hearts of Members from all over the United Kingdom We want to make sure that all parties concerned do who are here today. everything they can to support the disabled and I am conscious of the need to allow the Minister disadvantaged in our community, as that is a hallmark adequate time to address the issue, so I shall be brief. As of a civilised society. my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay A viable rescue package is possible, whether it is an Roy) said, we will shortly meet the Minister to hold a employee buy-out, a social enterprise or a private sector more detailed discussion, but I should like to pose three purchase. In my view, the proposals are rushed and, specific questions on which she might provide information ironically, represent a dramatic withdrawal of life support tonight. She will know the quality of the product and to a group of people who have been life savers for years. the fact that it is sold across the world. On the seven An option must remain on the table for an enhanced seas, one can find a product that is made in Fife. Will package for this internationally renowned product. A she tell the House what discussions she intends to have, company such as Remploy Marine, with a substantial or has already had, with the Ministry of Defence about number of disabled people, remains a viable, highly what more can be done to encourage the Royal Navy to competitive option but, as my right hon. Friend the purchase the product? Will she say what productive Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath said, that discussions she has been able to have with the Scottish cannot be achieved overnight. There are at least two Government about how we can all work together and potential buyers, who need all the support that they can how they can be encouraged to improve further, as get. my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and At Leven, we have been told that the subsidy is Cowdenbeath said, their offer to support the factories? £13,000 a head, but in terms of best value, the Government Does she hope to have an opportunity to visit either have been unable to quantify the increased benefits factory, or both factories, in the near future so that she costs if people are made unemployed, nor do we have can meet the work force face to face and see the excellent details of the redundancy payments. Furthermore, we product that they produce? I am conscious of the need do not know the care and health costs that often result to allow her adequate time to reply, so I shall conclude. when people become unemployed. 7.19 pm This year, the Leven factory engaged 76 youngsters on work experience placements at no cost to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Government, so there is an added value component. It and Pensions (Esther McVey): I congratulate the right is my contention that we do not have an accurate hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) balance sheet. With such a small percentage of workers on securing the debate. It is a pleasure to see him in his in employment after the July closures, we must do place for such an important debate. I am pleased, too, everything that we can together, and there is genuine that the hon. Members for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) optimism that we can save the factories in Cowdenbeath and for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and Leven. Like my right hon. Friend, I can vouch for made their points. We must ensure that we have, as we the community spirit and the wholesale backing of the have had this evening, a constructive and positive discussion Fife community for these ventures. The support is so that we engage potential bidders for the site. We need overwhelming and it is cross-party. people to come forward and to have that constructive I urge the Government to take a fresh look at the dialogue to make sure that we do as much as we can for issue, to consider a co-ordinated approach with various the employees of Remploy. partners, and to take this seriously, as I am sure they I listened carefully to the issues raised during the will. We have a collective duty to reduce the subsidy per debate. It is important that we put in context what is individual, and a collective obligation to maximise happening with the Remploy sites. employment for disabled people. That need not be done by disbanding a potentially viable business. Where there Jim McGovern rose— is a collective will, there is a way, and I am confident that with flexibility, good will, effective leadership and Esther McVey: We know that Remploy has faced an co-ordination a successful outcome can be achieved. uncertain future for many years. The right hon. Member That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will be well aware of and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and I have requested what happened under the previous Government and an urgent meeting with the Minister, and I trust that she under his leadership in 2008, when 29 factories were will accede to our request, because by working together closed. A modernisation plan that was put in place we can make a real difference and secure a viable failed. Unrealistic targets were set that were never achieved, outcome. and it cost £555 million. We must look at what this Government were left 7.17 pm with, what had not worked before, what money—half a billion pounds—had been spent, and the situation now. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): A sixth of the entire budget for people with disability I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for and their employment support was spent on 2,200 workers Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) not just on in loss-making Remploy sites, when we have 6.9 million securing this important debate but on the leadership disabled people of working age, all of whom we must that he has shown in Fife. We are heartened to see so help. many Members across the House—and people in the Press Gallery—taking a keen interest in the affairs of Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Will the Minister Fife, and it will be heartening to all our constituents to give way? 847 Remploy Marine Fife15 JANUARY 2013 Remploy Marine Fife 848

Esther McVey: Let me put that into local context, Remploy is offering a three-year tapered wage subsidy then I will give way. There are 36 disabled employees at of £6,400 per disabled person. The right hon. Member Cowdenbeath Remploy, yet there are 13,800 disabled for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has said that that people of working age in that constituency. In Leven subsidy is insufficient and has called for more money, there are 28 disabled staff at Remploy, yet there are but how did we come to that figure? We worked on past 13,600 disabled people in the constituency.As a Government precedents. The right hon. Gentleman’s Government we must help all those disabled people, so we have put wage subsidies in place for Workstep and we were protected the £320 million budget. What we are doing is guided by that, but the subsidy is worth more than that helping all those people. and other subsidies, such as the youth contract. We also have to strike a balance between the needs of Remploy’s Stewart Hosie: I thank the Minister for giving way. disabled employees and those of other disabled employees, This is not just about money. It is also about information. to whom we cannot offer that wage subsidy. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Yes, we have to take into account support for the (Mr Brown) referred to the Dundee plant which cuts the workers, but not in a way that affects the commercial fabric for the Fife plants. It may well be able to be saved market for other companies in the marketplace. Significantly and rise as a phoenix as a social enterprise, but Remploy increasing the subsidy and support provided to existing has been unable or unwilling to provide the cost breakdown businesses risks the very test that the commercial process for the factory, making the development of a business seeks to perform, in that a business must demonstrate plan impossible. That at least the hon. Lady can surely that it can be viable without continued Government sort out. subsidy. We have given Government subsidy in the past and, as I have said, the past modernisation plan failed— Esther McVey: I am happy to engage with the hon. £555 million was put into it over a continuous period Gentleman. All the information is coming out in a and it did not work. Therefore, we have to look at what staged process, as announced in December. All the bids is feasible and viable and at how we can move forward. are now coming forward, but I will help the hon. Gentleman with any information that he does not have. Mr Gordon Brown rose— Jim McGovern: Will the Minister give way? Esther McVey: I have three minutes to go, but I will Esther McVey: I am running out of time and there is give way to the right hon. Gentleman. lots to say, so on this occasion I will not give way. What is the vision for people with disabilities in the Mr Brown: This debate is about Remploy Marine workplace? It is not our vision—we went out to disability Fife and questions need to be answered about it. I have experts and organisations and asked them to review the made a practical proposal that the Government, the disability employment support and what we should be Scottish Administration and Fife council should meet doing. They strongly supported the idea of moving and look at flexible arrangements, so that the shortfall away from the Remploy model. First and most importantly is eliminated as quickly as possible for a viable product. for the 21st century, they felt that we needed to get more Will the Minister agree to those meetings? disabled people into mainstream work. We need to get more disabled people into work because at present only Esther McVey: I will, indeed, agree to those meetings. 46% of working age disabled people are employed, In fact, I will be in Dundee on 4 February and I will be compared with 76% of people who are not disabled. more than happy to meet Members. That means that there is a 30% gap in the employment rate and 2 million people out there whom we have to support. Jim McGovern: Will the Minister give way? In conclusion, the vision is that the money that has been protected must follow the person and will not go Esther McVey: The hon. Gentleman knows that I will to loss-making businesses. Let me put that in context. meet Members. I was in Scotland only a couple of Although the factory at Leven generated about £1.2 million months ago and, as I have said, we want to take part in in revenue for 2011-12, it is running at a loss of more direct discussions. than a third of a million pounds per annum. The factory at Cowdenbeath generated just under £0.8 million, but In the closing minutes, I want to explain the work and it loses £0.5 million in revenue per annum. We could use support that we have put in place for ex-employees of all that money to help support people with disabilities Remploy through the people help and support package. into work. We can help each one with, on average, We have put £8 million into that package, which was £3,200 to get into work. never done in 2008. I will remind hon. Members of Of the 668,000 people with disabilities in Scotland, what happened in 2008: 1,637 disabled people left Remploy, 152 work in a Remploy factory, but last year Remploy 1,006 took voluntary redundancy and 631 retired, because Employment Services got 1,700 people with similar they were offered enhanced amounts of money to take disabilities into work. That is what we have to do—support retirement and redundancy. We have not done that. We all those people. have secured people in a significant number of jobs and helped them. To answer directly some of the questions that have been asked, the Remploy commercial process is designed to maximise the number of jobs for disabled people. We Jim McGovern: Will the Minister give way? are seeking viable bids for its business, wherever possible, and getting the best offers we can to come forward. Mr Speaker: The Minister is not giving way, I am That is what it is about—supporting disabled people. afraid. 849 Remploy Marine Fife15 JANUARY 2013 Remploy Marine Fife 850

Esther McVey: I will meet Members in Scotland and Mr Speaker: Very well. all the relevant parties. Question put and agreed to. Mr Speaker: Is the Minister giving way or has she concluded? 7.29 pm Esther McVey: I have concluded. House adjourned.

181WH 15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 182WH

tribute to the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton Westminster Hall South East (Mr McFadden) who did so much to support the automotive sector when he was a Minister, including Tuesday 15 January 2013 with the establishment of the Automotive Council and other initiatives that the present Government have taken further and improved. That is why a consensual approach [HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] is important in the debate, because there is much to be gained from looking at where we can agree and how we Manufacturing (West Midlands) can improve our industrial base. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting It is my firm view that the decline in manufacturing be now adjourned.—(Greg Hands.) in the west midlands has held back other sectors of the economy. The number of people employed in 9.30 am manufacturing in the west midlands between 2000 and 2010 fell from 462,000 to 279,000. That has been reflected Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): It is a in most of our constituencies. The gross value added pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams, that manufacturing contributed to the west midlands and to have secured the debate. I am impressed by economy fell from 22.5% to 14.5%. That has a massive the Minister because, in anticipation of the debate, he impact on the spending power of all our constituents arranged for Jaguar Land Rover to announce 800 jobs and, therefore, a massive impact on retailers and service over the weekend. If that is how it goes, we should have industries, which are all very important to the west such a debate each week to ensure that another 800 jobs midlands. are announced each weekend. I may be considered an old romantic, but I believe Manufacturing is incredibly important to the west that the beating heart of the west midlands is our midlands, which is at the heart of the industry. The manufacturing industry. We can produce the best goods, industrial revolution started in the west midlands, and sell them around the world and be a great success. In we rely heavily on manufacturing jobs, although we South Staffordshire 3,600 of my constituents, or 15.9% have seen many changes during not only the past decade of the active work force, work in manufacturing, which but the past century. In 1997, when I left university and is almost double the national average. Although we may started working in manufacturing, 3.6 million people not have lots of factories, we have many important worked in the manufacturing sector, but that had sadly ones, including the new Jaguar Land Rover engine declined to 2.3 million by 2010. However, the decline in plant, and manufacturing has a massive significance for manufacturing jobs was not confined to that period; employment and prosperity in South Staffordshire. unfortunately, we have seen a steady and continuous decline under Governments of all colours. I hope that Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): My hon. we can approach the debate in a spirit of consensus, Friend is right to emphasise the decline in manufacturing because of the importance of manufacturing not only jobs historically, but is it not right to say that the success in my constituency but in all constituencies across the of Jaguar Land Rover means that the problem facing west midlands. Although I would like to say that the the west midlands manufacturing industry is a shortage decline in manufacturing employment is a national of skilled engineers? Should we not be sending out a issue and that the west midlands has been able to buck message to young people, “Come to engineering, because the trend— there is a really attractive, stable, long-term, good career for you in engineering in the west midlands and elsewhere.”? Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I agree with the hon. Gentleman so far in relation to Jaguar Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend makes a valid Land Rover, because the previous Government, like the point, and one of the brakes on expansion for many present Government, did a lot to keep Jaguar Land manufacturing businesses is the need for skilled, qualified Rover in the west midlands. More importantly, will the and able labour to work in design, manufacturing and hon. Gentleman offer his support for the retention of other aspects of their business. There has been a boom the London Taxi Company in the west midlands, in apprenticeships in South Staffordshire, where 1,000 particularly in Coventry? It needs all the support that it of them have been created in the past year alone, and can get. The Minister has assured us that he will support the apprenticeships that so many manufacturing firms us to retain the London Taxi Company in Coventry. offer are some of the very best. I would tell pupils at Codsall community high school, Ounsdale, Edgecliff, Cheslyn Hay or Great Wyrley—I think I have managed Gavin Williamson: I cannot pledge what the Minister to mention all my high schools—that they should look will say, but I personally offer my support. For such an at a career in manufacturing where there is a high-quality iconic brand with such a sense of Britishness as the apprenticeship, because that will offer them as many great London taxi to be built anywhere other than opportunities as a degree, which is the route that we Great Britain would be an absolute tragedy. I understand have traditionally encouraged young people to follow. that one of the problems with London Taxis International was that it outsourced the making of many of its parts Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I congratulate to China and the product quality was not right at final my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. assembly in Coventry. I do not, however, pretend to Does he agree that one of our big problems is that for understand the root causes as well as the hon. Member many years we have not valued those who have gone for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) does. into engineering, unlike other countries, such as Germany, The hon. Gentleman asked whether I would pay which regard engineers as highly qualified, highly skilled tribute to what the previous Government did to support professionals? Should we not put more emphasis on Jaguar Land Rover. I would particularly like to pay making engineering that sort of career in this country? 183WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 184WH

Gavin Williamson: I am pleased that a former solicitor David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Will the hon. recognises my importance as a former manufacturing Gentleman give way? man. My hon. Friend is absolutely right; we have tended to see manufacturing as a dirty industry, and we have Gavin Williamson: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, often steered our children and young people away from who might have got a little bit lost on the way over from it. We want to encourage many more people to take up Northern Ireland. the cudgels and go into manufacturing. Although manufacturing has shrunk as a percentage of gross David Simpson: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman value added, it still plays a vastly important role in the on securing this debate; I came to make sure that he prosperity of the nation. Manufactured goods make up knew what he was talking about. Certainly, he has been 48% of our exports. very impressive thus far. Although the west midlands is doing very well, the Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Yamazaki Mazak, hon. Gentleman will agree that other parts of the UK a machine tools manufacturer that is one of the largest are not doing as well. I come from a constituency that employers in my constituency, sells 80% to 85% of its has the second largest manufacturing base in Northern production overseas in exports. It is hosting an event Ireland. Does he agree that, to grow other areas, we with UK Trade and Investment in March to show other need more of a level playing field, whether right across manufacturers the benefits of export and make sure the whole UK or across the EU? that they can access markets around the world. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is the sort of partnership Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman makes a between the private sector and the Government that we valid point. I want to ensure that we have a level playing really need to get manufacturing in the west midlands field in procurement. We must recognise the fact that going and to support UK exports? many Governments—whether in Germany or France—put a great value on ensuring that local employment is created as a result of their procurement. Gavin Williamson: There has to be a clear recognition that industry and Government do not work in separate Northern Ireland has benefited significantly, whether silos—they have to work hand in hand—and one of the by buses being produced in Ballymena or other things. areas that we have not put enough emphasis on is small We would like to see various parts of the UK—whether and medium-sized enterprises. Of course, it is easy to Northern Ireland, the west midlands, Yorkshire, the talk a lot about some of the big names in manufacturing north-east or the north-west—all benefiting from a in the west midlands—I am sure that we will do so in Government who are passionate about buying British. I this debate—but historically, SMEs have often significantly hope that we are starting to see that, but I would underperformed by comparison with their competitors certainly like to see a lot more of it. in Germany and France in realising their export potential. If we were to encourage those SMEs, to see more of Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I am most grateful to them attacking export markets with as much gusto as my hon. Friend for giving way, and I congratulate him their competitors in Germany, France, Italy and Spain, on securing this debate. On Friday, I visited Alston with that would make a vast difference not only in redressing the Government’s chief scientific adviser at the Department our balance of trade but in ensuring that we create more of Energy and Climate Change, because Alston is a jobs in the west midlands, including in South Staffordshire. major investor in energy, particularly high-voltage direct current. One of the points I noted was that our national grid buys most of its transformers from overseas. Stafford Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is the only place in the UK with a transformer manufacturer. has just mentioned a number of our competitor countries. However, the real reason that the national grid is buying However, is not one of the big differences in those from abroad is that in our procurement in the UK we countries the approach of the public sector and civil do not take into account the quality of UK products servants? It is fashionable at the moment to talk about and hence their longevity. The value-for-money approach some of the deficiencies of our civil servants, and this is needs to take longevity into account. If that were the clearly one of them. Those competitor countries actually case, I believe that we would be buying more from UK look after their own industry, but we in the UK have manufacturers. ambulances and fire engines being imported; we only have to go down to Palace Yard to see police vans from Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend, who is a constituency Germany. Indeed, the Home Office has actually told the neighbour of mine, makes a valid point. Alston also has West Midlands police force that it cannot buy Jaguars a significant impact on my constituency. Looking at for its motorway fleet. Is not that an absurd position to how things are procured, the value that is gained over a take, and does it not need all parties to get a grip of the long period and the investment, in terms of jobs, training civil service on this issue? and apprenticeships that are brought to the UK, are all incredibly important points that must be recognised in Gavin Williamson: The right hon. Gentleman makes Government procurement. a valid point. Although I do not know the details of the West Midlands police force arrangements, a lot of Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): I welcome Government procurement should be about ensuring the consensual nature and tone of my hon. Friend’s that officials place a higher value on actually buying debate, and I just want to build on the point made by British; certainly, they should ensure that a value is my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy). placed on jobs being created in the west midlands and Is my hon. Friend aware that under EU procurement the rest of the UK. rules there is actually the possibility that a Government 185WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 186WH can introduce what is called a socio-economic weighting the manufacturing sector, so we must appreciate what a to a bid, which means that they can put a value on bids significant role the sector plays in terms of our universities from companies in their own country, notwithstanding and developing new technologies. One of the finest the other bids that come from across the EU? We saw examples is the Warwick Manufacturing Group, which that with the Bombardier problem, where it was argued is based in the west midlands and really leading the way. by the civil servants involved that, in order to fulfil EU It is a shining example of what we want to see more of, procurement rules, we had to have equal weighting for not only in the west midlands but right across the UK. all bids from across the EU. Actually, what other EU countries do is to place a socio-economic value on companies from their own country. Should we not send Jeremy Lefroy: I just want to point out the importance out a message today to the civil service that we should of the Government’s regional growth fund. In the case be doing the same? of Alston—I have already mentioned Alston, and I would be grateful if the Minister could visit it to see for himself the impact of the RGF—the fund has been Gavin Williamson: That is certainly a message that I used to invest in world-beating high-voltage direct current will heartily endorse, because Government decisions on technology. For instance, last year Alston received an procurement have a massive impact. Often there is a lot order worth 250 million euros from the Swedish grid, that can be learned from our continental counterparts, even in the face of stiff Swedish opposition. primarily about how to ensure that we support and benefit our own businesses. Gavin Williamson: I certainly concur with all the I will now go a little bit away from procurement to points that my hon. Friend has made, and my right hon. return to the issue of exports, especially the importance Friend the Minister will have a very busy diary by the of exports in the west midlands. Of course, much of time that he leaves Westminster Hall after this debate. what we are producing is for export, and as I mentioned, almost half of the UK’s exports are of manufactured I am very conscious of time, and that other people goods. We hear an awful lot of talk about how we need want to contribute to the debate. So I will try to go to improve exports from the service sector and our through some of the points that I want to make very creative industries, and about bringing in more tourists rapidly, and I hope that Members will not think me to the UK. Those are all incredibly important issues, discourteous if I try not to take too many interventions but if we could achieve a 10% increase in the amount of from this point on. As I say, I am very conscious that manufactured goods that we export, that would have a others want to an opportunity to speak. much more significant impact on our balance of trade, South Staffordshire has seen some enormous job creation and the wealth of our nation. manufacturing successes since 2010. Last year, McCain I very much welcome the work that has already been Foods announced it was investing £3 million in its undertaken by UKTI and I encourage it to do more. Wombourne factory, introducing new product lines, However, I will go back to the point I made earlier, to securing the factory’s future and creating jobs. We have say again that it is very easy for us all to focus on the seen a massive investment by Moog’s aviation division, very large businesses but there are some fantastic businesses which has moved from its old site in Bilbrook, in my that are quite small, perhaps employing only 20 to 200 constituency, just a couple of miles down the road to people, and quite often they fall under the radar. Recently the new i54 site, which is also in my constituency. It has I spoke to a constituent, Louis Barnett, who exports invested many tens of millions of pounds, securing chocolate from Britain; Mexico is one of his largest British jobs—jobs that have a significant impact in not markets. However, he did not understand about export only South Staffordshire, but Wolverhampton. We have guarantees, or what else was available. Now he is working seen investment from Eurofins. Of course, the most very closely with UKTI and he has a much better significant investment came from Jaguar Land Rover, understanding of the support that is available to help which invested £350 million in the i54 business park. his business and many similar businesses. That is the That will, I hope, create 750 jobs and make sure that all message that we need to get across—that there is a vast the company’s engines are manufactured in the UK. market out there. It is not just the west midlands, or the The firm is investing significantly in new technology, rest of the UK; it is the world. such as its new four-cylinder engine, which will reduce emissions and, I hope, drive exports and domestic sales. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The manufacturing is alive and kicking in the west midlands, hon. Gentleman is to be congratulated on initiating the and will he join me in congratulating Peterson Springs, debate. He was right when he said there is a degree of a company in my constituency, which last year increased agreement. If the scrappage scheme saved the automotive its exports by 20%? I would be delighted if the Minister industry from collapse, the Automotive Council provided would like to visit it. the focus for its regeneration, and it is welcome that there has been continuity of policy under this Government. Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend is getting a very However, on investment, which is crucial, does the hon. early bid in there; again, I will leave the Minister to Gentleman share my concern that, in a global marketplace respond to that request himself. However, I of course in which we need to export on the one hand and attract join her in congratulating that company on its work. I inward investment on the other— particularly in the am sure that one of the great reasons it has seen such automotive industry—prolonged uncertainty for years export success is because of its investment in research to come as to whether our country will remain in the and development. R and D is important in the west European Union could deeply damage investment midlands. Indeed, 72% of all R and D is derived from decisions? 187WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 188WH

Gavin Williamson: No, but I thank the hon. Gentleman, The regional growth fund has an incredibly important because we have worked closely on a number of issues role to play. I welcome the fact that we have it until that affect our constituencies. We might not agree on his 2015. I also welcome the fact that, in the last round, the last point, but there is certainly a lot of agreement on west midlands benefited from £123 million of investment many other issues. from the RGF. Those are immense positives, which I The investment in the i54, including by Jaguar Land welcome, but I would like the RGF to go far beyond Rover, happened not only as a result of Government 2015. I appreciate that it is not always within the gift of support. We often forget that although central Government the Government to say when these things will go on to, play an important role, the role played by local authorities but we want some degree of consistency in industrial has been just as important, whether it is South Staffordshire policy. I always say that one of Germany’s great successes district council, Staffordshire county council or is the fact that it has taken a consistent approach to Wolverhampton city council. They put their money industrial policy pretty much since the war. There has where their mouth is and supported investment in been more of an evolutionary process, as against radical infrastructure. change when there has been a change of Government. I very much welcome what the RGF does, but one Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): May I, too, slight flaw in it is the fact that it is aimed at very big congratulate my hon. Friend on initiating the debate? investments. I applaud what the Black Country LEP Will he also give credit to the role of the local enterprise did to bring together a consortium of businesses. A partnerships? Lichfield is a member of the Greater number of the people involved in those businesses live Birmingham and Solihull LEP, which is dynamically in my constituency, and they have talked about the run by Andy Street, who is also the chief executive important role that the initiative has had in helping officer of the John Lewis group. He is working with my much smaller companies to tap in to what the RGF can noble Friend Lord Heseltine as part of a pilot programme, deliver. I encourage other LEPs to look at a similar which could bring in a further £1 billion in investment. mechanism and at how they can build consortia to tap Would my hon. Friend like to say a few words about the into the RGF. role of LEPs in stimulating industry? I would welcome it if the Minister could say something Gavin Williamson: I am happy to do so, because I was about the Government’s commitment to the RGF and going to touch on that in relation to the Greater give more commitments about what it can do. I was Birmingham and Solihull LEP pilot. I hope that it will going to say that I am not going to engage in special be a massive success and that it can be rolled out to the pleading for the west midlands, but that would be a Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire LEP and the Black lie—I do want to engage in special pleading. We want Country LEP.I was also going to touch on the importance the number of manufacturing jobs to increase, and the of city deals. Rather by coincidence, today is the deadline RGF will play an important role in that. Yes, cuts in for them to be submitted, and the Black Country and corporation tax are important. Yes, Government support the Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire LEPs have both for everything from Catapult investment into submitted theirs. City deals will be a key mechanism in apprenticeships is vital. However, for the west midlands helping small and mid-sized businesses to expand, and to grow, the Government must back British and west they will give LEPs much greater powers and a much midlands manufacturing consistently, all the way, absolutely greater ability to bring money in. Whether we are talking to the hilt. about the regional growth fund or what the LEPs are doing, it is key that our focus is constantly on bringing The local authorities in my constituency—Staffordshire in private sector investment to support public money. county council and South Staffordshire district council— and Wolverhampton city council are very much working Jack Dromey: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to make sure that we get tens of millions of pounds that the role of various key players is recognised, but more in investment in the i54 business park. I would like does he agree that it is also important that we recognise a clear commitment from the Minister that he will the role of the work force? On the one hand, the Society support Staffordshire county council, Wolverhampton of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has praised the city council and South Staffordshire district council in British work force in the automotive industry. On the getting that investment and that he is willing to listen if other hand, the remarkable Ralph Speth has said that they need help and support from the Government. He the turnaround of Jaguar Land Rover could not have has had an open-door policy since he came to his post been achieved without the support and co-operation of in September, and I very much hope that that continues. the work force. Together, consensually, as a group of west midlands MPs, we can make sure that the west midlands are the Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman makes a industrial heartland and the manufacturing centre of valid point. Any business is only as good as its work this great nation, and that our manufacturing businesses force. The work force make the business; the managers, are once again growing and are employing more people. the people working on the shop floor and the designers We are starting to see that, and that is what we all want are what the business is. The hon. Gentleman will not and what we are all striving for. I hope my right hon. hear a single word of disagreement from me on that. Friend the Minister will help us to deliver that. What I hope we will see from the LEPs is embodied in what we will see over the next couple of years, with the city deals and what is being piloted in Birmingham—a Hywel Williams (in the Chair): At least eight hon. great expansion of their role, with them taking a much Members have indicated a wish to speak. I intend to more active role, being much more involved in small, start the winding-up speeches at 10.40, so I ask them medium-sized and large businesses, and encouraging to try to restrict themselves to about five minutes, if investment. possible, so that everyone can get in. 189WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 190WH

10 am Mr Spellar: Does my hon. Friend agree that there is an absurd situation for suppliers who have long-term Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I contracts with major companies such as Jaguar Land congratulate the hon. Member for South Staffordshire Rover or, indeed, Rolls-Royce, which has a massive (Gavin Williamson) on securing the debate. I agree with order book stretching out 10 years? Rolls-Royce is a lot of what he said. He was right to emphasise the having to fund them because the banks will not lend importance of continuity. I am pleased that he began against that very predictable order book. Is not that his speech by mentioning the 800 new jobs that have madness? been created at Jaguar Land Rover. That is a tribute to many people, including Jaguar Land Rover itself, under Richard Burden: My right hon. Friend is absolutely the ownership of Tata, which has really put its money right. We are all a bit like cracked records when we say where its mouth is. Tata understands the importance of this. I chaired the Regional Select Committee on the investment in plant, skills and product, and in the West Midlands, and our first report was on that issue. supply chain to back that up. I will say more about that, We highlight it time and again, and if we are to make but it is important to recognise the importance of JLR the step change that is needed, we must deal with it. these days as a corporate citizen of the west midlands. I have already taken five minutes, but I want briefly to That said, the markets where Jaguar Land Rover is mention two things, beginning with local involvement. expanding are the far east and elsewhere. If it were as Bringing banks and industry closer requires mechanisms dependent on the European market as some other that will allow that and encourage it to happen. Often, manufacturers are, however good a corporate citizen it such mechanisms are the most successful when they is, the story would be different. We heard about Honda are born out of crisis. I know that from my experience shedding 800 jobs last week—just outside the west of the kind of work that was done after the collapse midlands, admittedly—Ford announcing plans in October of MG Rover and partly in preparation for what to cut 1,400 jobs at plants in southern England, and eventually happened there. The regional development Vauxhall moving to a four-day week for more than agencies were starting to do some good work on 2,000 workers in Ellesmere Port. Only last week General that. They have gone now, but a glue to stick things Motors forecast that European car sales would weaken together—finance sector and industry co-operation, still further this year. I say that because the UK exports reaching out to SMEs and understanding the needs 82% of its cars, and the European market is vital to of manufacturing—remains vital. That is why Lord that. In all seriousness, going down the road of knee-jerk Heseltine’s report is so important and why I welcome anti-Europeanism will not help. What happens in the the pilot scheme being mounted in the Greater eurozone will affect us, whether we like it or not. I hope Birmingham and Solihull area, but there is a need for that that big picture will be remembered on Friday. follow-up. I hope that when the Government consider The automotive industry is doing well. The west the bid submitted in relation to the pilot, they will see midlands is a key part of that, but the Government the huge potential for the local enterprise partnership could do more to back it up. I want to say something and, more importantly, for the broader west midlands about the supply chain. There has been £6 billion of and beyond. major investment by the big manufacturers, but if we I acknowledge and support what has been said about look at who supplies them, we see that, all too often, the procurement and skills, but I will not elaborate on that. parts come from abroad. Most of the big first-tier My last comment is on technologies and the future. I suppliers are not UK-owned, but there is no reason why have spoken entirely about the automotive industry, but more products could not be manufactured here and when I do that, I am not talking simply about cars, or supplied to them through our second, third and fourth-tier even commercial vehicles and so on. I am talking about suppliers. The UK could get a lot more benefit out of an industry at the heart of manufacturing, which is that if it ensured that the myriad often specialist companies often a catalyst to the development of other industries, in the west midlands and elsewhere got a greater piece whether in defence, in composites, in other advanced of the action. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and manufacturing, or in medical technology. That is why Traders has estimated that there could be £3 billion of messages of the kind that are coming from the Automotive extra opportunities if we could get more coherent support Council are so important and why we should understand for the supply chain. the contribution made to manufacturing by Britain’s Some good things have happened under the present motor sport industry, many of whose companies are and previous Governments. The regional growth fund, based in the west midlands. For those benefits to be which has been mentioned, and the advanced developed, there must be a consistent Government manufacturing supply chain initiative are good, but we approach. It is also vital to have mechanisms in our need to do more, and that is the message coming from region that are controlled and run by people in the west the automotive industry. It is a bit of a cliché, but it is midlands who understand manufacturing, who can decide true none the less, that the Government need to be local priorities and, just as importantly, who can mobilise consistent and joined-up, and to work on industry’s and lever in the resources needed to increase our time scale, not the glacial pace at which too often they manufacturing industries’ potential and translate it into work. They also need to do more about access to reality. finance. For small and medium-sized firms in the supply chain, access to finance is still an issue, and many such 10.7 am firms continue to tell me either that banks do not understand how they operate, or that they do understand Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I but work at a glacial pace or make credit so conditional, commend my hon. Friend the Member for South so prohibitive, that only firms that probably do not need Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) for securing this important the credit in the first place can get it. and timely debate. I am also delighted to follow the hon. 191WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 192WH

[Chris White] 10.11 am Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): It is great that we Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), are having this debate, and I congratulate the hon. not least because of my experience of working for MG Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) on Rover in his constituency for several years. securing it. He is absolutely right to highlight the great Manufacturing accounts for nearly 15% of the gross news we have had this week of 800 new jobs at Jaguar value added for the west midlands economy, above the Land Rover, and to draw attention to the contribution national average. With about 290,000 people still working that small and medium-sized enterprises make to the in manufacturing, we should recognise the strength that manufacturing sector in the west midlands. the sector maintains in the region. As co-chair of the We have companies such as Revolvo at Queen’s Cross, Associate Parliamentary Manufacturing Group I was which is a traditional bearings manufacturer that now pleased to host a round table last year at Warwick exports to Brazil and produces bearings for large wind Manufacturing Group, located at the university of Warwick, turbines, showing that traditional manufacturers can to discuss the future of manufacturing in our region. find new markets in emerging economies abroad and in There was general agreement that if we can get the new industries in this country. Eurocraft at Netherton policy right, there is great potential for growth. produces the cabinets that house the communications equipment installed in streets across the country for Our region has a number of strengths on which we broadband connections. Boss Design produces what is, need to capitalise. First, manufacturing is likely to without doubt, the best furniture in the world. The become more highly skilled in the years ahead—the UK chairs that world leaders sat on at the Gleneagles G8 Commission for Employment and Skills estimates that meeting and those that right hon. and hon. Members sit by 2017 there will be as many people working in the on when filming “Question Time” on a Thursday night higher end of the industry as the lower end—and we are all manufactured in the middle of Dudley. Cab have a range of world-class research establishments Automotive is a fantastic company in Tipton producing such as Warwick Manufacturing Group, which will also car components for manufacturers around Europe. It is be home to one of the catapult centres for high-value bringing the supply chain back to the black country by manufacturing, and Coventry university’s automotive beating German companies for contracts with German engineering research group, as well as the world-class manufacturers. universities of Birmingham and Coventry. I am glad that the Coventry and Warwickshire local enterprise Like many right hon. and hon. Members, I spend a partnership has sought to integrate those institutions lot of my time visiting local companies and meeting fully into its five-year plan, but we need to do more to with organisations such as the chamber of commerce strengthen the triangle and create a strong manufacturing and Made in the Midlands and listening to their views. cluster right at the heart of the region. They tell us that they want, first, a stable and competitive tax regime that enables them to plan and invest for the Secondly, we have strong connectivity with the rest of long term; I therefore welcome the decision to reinstate the UK. Our region connects well to London and the capital allowances. Secondly, as we have already heard, south-east by road and rail, and our good access to they want access to finance—that is absolutely crucial. aviation gives global reach. We need to continue to Eurocraft, for example, is winning orders from around strengthen our regional infrastructure because it is key the world but it has to turn business away because it to boosting regional productivity and making our cannot get the finance it needs from the banks to invest manufacturers competitive in the global marketplace. I and fund expansion. Thirdly, they often complain about urge the Government to work more closely with our skills shortages in the region and their inability to local enterprise partnerships to ensure that the west attract young people into manufacturing. midlands is given proper consideration when infrastructure It is no exaggeration to say that my constituency of spending is discussed. Dudley has had a bigger impact than anywhere else in Thirdly, we have a strong brand. At the Conservative the country on the development of Britain’s economy. party conference last year, I was pleased to speak at an Dudley lit the spark that fired the industrial revolution event hosted by IDEA Birmingham, a collaboration and changed not just Dudley and the black country, but between businesses and Birmingham City university, Britain and the whole of the world. That happened in about improving growth in the region through good Dudley. design. It was clear from that event and from speaking to businesses involved in it that our region’s heritage Mr Spellar: My hon. Friend is of course entitled to and reputation, which attracts businesses to invest, make his case in his own way, but as the Member of has the potential to draw in more inward investment. Parliament for Smethwick, which contains the Soho The Government have rightly stressed the need to works of James Watt and Matthew Boulton, I think rebalance the economy away from dependence on financial that his proposition is, at the very least, contestable. services and imports and towards manufacturing and exports, but we must ensure that we have an integrated Ian Austin: It is true that Watt and Boulton and the approach that builds on the collective strengths of our rest of them exploited the industrial revolution, but it region. was triggered—[Interruption.] It is true. Perhaps my right hon. Friend needs a history lesson: the industrial Finally, I do not want to miss this opportunity to revolution was triggered by learning to smelt iron ore invite the Minister to Warwick and Leamington to visit with coke, which enabled the production of cast iron in Aga Rangemaster and DCA Design International, sufficient quantities, and that happened first in Gornal companies which are local, national and international in my constituency, so it is absolutely true that the success stories. industrial revolution started in Dudley. My point is that 193WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 194WH we have to be inspired by that history and to create in in western Europe. Let us extend the runway at Birmingham the 21st century a new industrial revolution to bring and have more direct flights to India, China and Russia. new businesses, investment and jobs to the region. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley As we have heard, we have great strengths in the west (Mr Spellar) said, let us sort out procurement, to support midlands. We excel at innovation, which is the driving the regional economy. force behind our economy, we have an adaptable work As Britain emerges from recession and the economy force and we have companies that can produce absolutely starts to grow again, if we do some of those things we anything, but we have to be honest about the fact that will be able to build a stronger economy and exploit the regional economy faces major challenges in transport new opportunities with better skills and more innovation. and trade, innovation and investment, and jobs and That will transform the west midlands and the lives of skills. the people who live there. The recession hit the west midlands harder than anywhere else in the country. Since 1976, the region has 10.19 am fallen behind the national average—36 years in which we have dropped further and further behind. During a Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Thank you, decade of growth under Labour, ours was the only Mr Williams, for allowing me to speak in this important region in which private sector investment fell, and although debate. we have some world-beating businesses and great I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South universities, we have not managed to attract new industries Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson), who is a staunch to replace the jobs lost in traditional ones. Fundamentally, advocate of both manufacturing and the west midlands. that is because we have not had the skills that investors Manufacturing industry is extremely important to the in industries such as computing and pharmaceuticals west midlands and to my constituents. Twenty-two per look for. cent. of people in work in my constituency are engaged Even before the recent recession we had higher in the manufacturing industries. I also have a large unemployment than in the rest of the country, and the number of manufacturing companies in my constituency, proportion of jobs that are in the public sector or from large manufacturers, such as Rolls-Royce and low-growth industries is above average. Birmingham Triton Showers, to small and medium-sized companies should be the engine driving the region’s growth, but that serve niche markets and the supply chain in the one in three jobs there are in public services and only automotive and aerospace sectors. one in 10 are in manufacturing. Underpinning all of I have visited many such companies in my constituency, that are the most worrying facts of all: we have too and it is obvious that companies that are fully engaged many people with poor literacy and numeracy and too with the growth markets of south America and China many with no qualifications. In our regional economy, are doing very well. The decision of Jaguar Land Rover, there are 70,000 fewer workers with high-level skills which is fully engaged with those markets, to employ a than in other regions, and we have a lower proportion further 800 people at Solihull is welcome. That is in of managerial, technical and professional jobs. Over the stark contrast to the unfortunate situations that we have next 20 years, there will be huge growth in areas such as seen recently for manufacturing companies that are low-carbon manufacturing, advanced manufacturing, concentrated on the domestic and European markets. digital media and biomedical technologies, but the areas I therefore welcome the Government’s action to support that get the jobs will be the ones that have the skills further investment in UK Trade and Investment with a investors are looking for. 25% increase in year-on-year funding. Putting more I refuse to accept that our best days are behind us. I money and resources into UKTI is important. I am sure am ambitious for our region and I believe that we are as that the Minister agrees that our efforts should be good as anyone. I want to ensure that people in the west focused on getting the best value for money from that midlands have the opportunities that people elsewhere additional resource. I am also sure that he will ensure in the country take for granted. As west midlands MPs that the additional investment and resources are carefully we should agree, first, to make education and skills monitored, so that we get value for money, particularly the No. 1 priority, setting as an ambition for the region for west midlands manufacturing companies. the biggest rise in educational standards anywhere in I commend the Minister and his colleagues, including the UK. We need more people doing technical the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Foreign apprenticeships. I want to see a university technical Secretary, for their hands-on role in promoting our college in every town in the region, equipping youngsters exports. All those representatives of our Government with the skills manufacturers need and persuading them are getting onto planes and getting out to emerging to take up fulfilling and rewarding careers in industry. markets. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Dudley We need better links between schools and universities North (Ian Austin) thinks that that is funny, but I think and a real focus in the black country, with businesses, that it is fantastic that our Ministers are getting out schools, colleges, universities and local authorities there there and working with other countries. Many emerging coming together to work out how to attract new investment. countries have completely different cultures to ours, We should consider introducing regional and industrial and they value the time provided by Ministers and banking. Could we use local authority pension funds in senior Cabinet Ministers, who are doing a great deal of the region to fund investment in new industries and good and providing a great deal of benefit to our emerging technologies? Let us sort out the region’s manufacturing industry. transport problems. I would like to see High Speed 2 Skills are our biggest challenge to grasping the not stopping at Coleshill, but going through Birmingham opportunities that are coming down the track for and into the black country, where we have the largest the west midlands. Although we have a highly skilled concentration of manufacturing companies anywhere work force in the west midlands, the work force in our 195WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 196WH

[Mr Marcus Jones] I am sure there could be much discussion with my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley manufacturing industries is ageing. We must ensure that North (Ian Austin), on the genealogy of manufacturing we are creating skills to meet the challenges and in the west midlands. My constituency’s claim probably opportunities that lie out there for the west midlands. I focuses on the activities of John Wilkinson, who launched am still not sure that we have a golden thread of skills the world’s first iron boat in Bradley and made other running through our growth agenda in the west midlands. innovations in the Bilston and Bradley area. I suspect We must do far more work on that. that that ground is contested and we would all have to make our own claim. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): My hon. Friend is making an important point about The debate, of course, is not only the story of the skills. One of the recommendations of the Heseltine past; it is the story of the present and future. I echo the review, in relation to his idea of single-pot funding, is to welcome for the Jaguar Land Rover announcement have a much more radical devolution of responsibility and, indeed, for the investment under way on the border for skills funding, with the local enterprise partnerships of Wolverhampton and south Staffordshire for the new taking a more important role, to address the long-term engine plant. That site was ready for development only problem that the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian because of the activities of Advantage West Midlands, Austin) also raised: we do not have the correct match of the regional development agency at the time, which skills in the west midlands to take advantage of the prepared and kept the site to have something ready for massive opportunities before us. Jaguar Land Rover to go into. I make that point not necessarily to try to rewind the clock, but to say that the Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. state has a role, either locally or nationally, in helping to He is absolutely right. Further education is now taking make such investments happen. a far greater role, with our further education colleges trying to put on more courses that suit local employment The important thing for the local enterprise partnerships, and industry. We must develop that further and get the which have replaced the regional development agencies, public sector working more with the private sector. is that they have the power and punch to carry out their One of my other great concerns is for some of our role. That is why Lord Heseltine’s recommendations for smallest manufacturing companies that employ four, more devolution of power and spending are important. five or six people. Although there has been welcome There will be significant institutional resistance to that progress on apprenticeships and Government funding, within Whitehall. The report is easy to write but a we have not gone far enough. For a manufacturing challenge to implement. If the LEPs are to be effective, company of that size to employ an apprentice, they and if the commitment of business people is to pay off, often effectively need to designate one member of staff they need power and punch. to mentor and look after that apprentice, and that The hon. Member for South Staffordshire was right causes a huge strain on a small business’s resources. to say that manufacturing is not all about headline Although many small business owners to whom I have names; critically, it is about the supply chain and the spoken would like to start training apprentices, their small companies that dot our constituencies. I call that business models do not allow for it. Nationally, we are the ecosystem of manufacturing, and others refer to it now engaging business mentors, and I should be grateful as the industrial commons, but all those companies are to the Minister if considered a similar regional system interdependent and reliant on one another. I do not to engage people involved in manufacturing who are want to repeat what companies have asked for, because perhaps coming up to retirement, or who have retired, other Members have already addressed that, but the to work as mentors by going into companies to support hon. Gentleman is familiar with Wescol—the owners live the development of apprentices. Will he consider whether in his constituency, and the business is in my constituency a funding stream could be developed for that? —a manufacturer of gas equipment. LS Manufacturing We are short on time, so, finally, I plead on behalf of in my constituency makes quality textiles. Wednesbury the Coventry, Warwickshire and Hinckley and Bosworth Tube makes copper pipe, and there are many others. city deal bid, which is currently being submitted to the Government. The bid goes across county and regional Businesses want the things that hon. Members have boundaries, reflecting the rich manufacturing history mentioned. They want reasonable energy costs; they and the current manufacturing activity within those look with some envy at the rebates available to energy- areas. I am convinced that, if we can secure the city intensive industries in Germany. They certainly want a deal, it will help us to drive the skills agenda, to obtain skilled work force, as my hon. Friend the Member for growth from the high-value manufacturing that we can Dudley North said. They also want the freedom to produce in our region and to connect with emerging operate. That is an important message that we receive: markets. Will the Minister make a plea to my right hon. they want freedom from business crime and metal theft— Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to ensure problems that we are not yet on top of that challenge that the city deal bid is successful? I hope that we can manufacturing businesses in many parts of the country. keep driving our local economy forward. Businesses want a stable tax environment. I welcome the autumn statement changes in capital allowances, 10.26 am but they prompt the question why capital allowances Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): were cut in the first place. It never made sense to talk I congratulate the hon. Member for South Staffordshire about the march of the makers and then impose more (Gavin Williamson) on securing this timely and important tax on the activity of making things. That position has debate on an issue close to all our hearts as west now been reversed, which I welcome and have called for midlands MPs. consistently over a number of years. 197WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 198WH

On the regional growth fund, there is a difference Some 85% aspired to increase exports this year. MAS between announcing expenditure and getting expenditure commented that exporting has been a key driver in to the companies that need it. Again, I reflect something improving manufacturing. that the Minister will undoubtedly be experiencing: due I was delighted that this Government continued with diligence is a good thing, but paralysis is not. There is a the enterprise finance guarantee scheme and opened it difference between announcing money and spending it. up to exporters, to whom it was not previously open due We need to get better at getting money out the door to EU restrictions. UK Export Finance has been renewed after it has been announced. It is important that that and reinvigorated, although it still has some way to go; I happens with the regional growth fund. note that my neighbour the hon. Member for Dudley I have two other points to make in closing. Many of North (Ian Austin) said that a company in his constituency the issues that we are discussing are about supply-side had problems getting finance. Last year, 42% of exports measures. Businesses also need demand in the economy. from our region went to the EU, 22% to Asia and 16% There is not enough demand, and given that every to North America. Opposition Members are right to major developed country is pursuing austerity policies, point out the importance of the EU single market it is not surprising that businesses are struggling to to our manufacturers. employ, create and grow. It is important to have demand My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and the right investment to avoid the collective austerity mentioned UK Trade and Investment, which is vital. that is dragging down demand across our economies. UKTI has supported a great many manufacturers in I echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member our region, and it is approachable and willing to offer for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden): business Members the resources at its disposal, including seminars needs certainty. If we are about to embark on years of to gear up for their manufacturing audience. I urge uncertainty about where we stand in the world and in Members who have not taken up that opportunity to do relation to Europe, it will not do our manufacturing so for the benefit of manufacturers in their constituencies. businesses any good. Of course we are in a global game—it is not only about Europe; it is about China, I said that I would mention education. Skills are vital. India, Russia and other markets—but Europe remains My area of the black country has a skills deficit, as we our biggest export market. Sending a message to both have heard from other Members. Only 19% in our area inward investors and our own domestic investors that have NVQ level 4 qualifications, versus the national we will now have years of uncertainty about our relationship average of 31%, and fewer people are educated to with our biggest export market is not good for degree level. That must change. I am delighted by the manufacturing. I am sorry to make this somewhat Government’s commitment to apprenticeships. In 2011, partisan point in what is otherwise a fairly consensual we had 49,000 starts in engineering and manufacturing, debate, but it is important to stress that all of us in this and 17,000 of those were at advanced and higher level. Chamber are united in wanting more of the activity of It is vital that we keep that up. University technical making things. I believe that geopolitics—where Britain colleges are a great breakthrough, and I wish the hon. stands in the world—is critical to investment decisions. Member for Dudley North success in attracting Aston That is the important point on which I close. to establish a UTC in Dudley, which would benefit my constituency. Hywel Williams (in the Chair): I remind the hon. I will conclude, as I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) and the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) wants to hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), who speak and we have only three minutes. want to speak, that I wish to start the winding-up speeches at 10.40. 10.37 am Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): In the two 10.33 am and a half minutes that my hon. Friend the Member for Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate Stourbridge (Margot James) has kindly let me have, I my neighbour the hon. Member for South Staffordshire echo much of what has been said. Manufacturing is (Gavin Williamson) on securing this important debate. important to my constituency. The three towns making Nationwide, in the 10-year period around the turn of up my patch—Cannock, Hednesford and Rugeley—have the century, we lost 1.7 million jobs in manufacturing a sizeable manufacturing and engineering base. More across the country, so it is encouraging to see signs of than 20% of my constituents are employed by improvement and see manufacturing’s share of GDP manufacturing-centred small businesses. Manufacturing increasing again. We have heard a lot in this debate is vital to my constituents. about the renaissance in the automotive sector. Coming As Members have said, the west midlands and Cannock from Coventry as I do and having family connections to Chase are blessed with skilled workers in manufacturing. the car industry, I treat it with a special respect. It is It is the ideal place for businesses to set up and invest. encouraging. We have manufacturing firms of all sizes, including I will concentrate my few remarks on the promotion giants such as JCB Cab Systems, which employs more of manufacturing in the west midlands in schools and than 400 people, and ThyssenKrupp, which employs universities, in the wider community and to exporters more than 900, right down to the small family firms and customers abroad. The Manufacturing Advisory with which my hon. Friends will all be familiar: Plum Service did a survey focusing on exports last year and Logo, Mailcoms and Fuel Conservation Services, all of found that 42% of respondents reported improvements which employ between 10 and 30 people. All those firms in first-half activity last year, and 46% anticipated a are vital to supporting jobs and securing growth in further upturn. That is because they were exporters. our economy. 199WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 200WH

[Mr Aidan Burley] and facilitating the principal actors to come together through investment and co-ordination to realise that I have determined to visit as many of those firms as potential. possible, not only to pay tribute to their hard work but to learn at first hand what challenges face local employers Gavin Williamson: I appreciate the time, so I thank and listen to the views of employees. The three issues the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he think it is that have come up, which have been echoed in this important for every Government Department, not only debate, are training and skills, lending and promoting the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, to investment. I will not repeat the speeches made on those encourage manufacturing? issues, but I want to impress on the Minister that it is vital to tackle the skills shortage in manufacturing in the west midlands and encourage more young people to Mr Wright: The hon. Gentleman is spot on. The take mechanical and engineering qualifications. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills should not be the only Whitehall Department with responsibility On bank lending I think, like many other hon. Members, for business; every Department in Whitehall should be that the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite responsible for business. I pay tribute to my right hon. direction. Access to reasonable finance for firms that Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East clearly have a future has become far too difficult. Ministers (Mr McFadden) for trying to press that point when he have a duty to remind the banks, which were so generously was doing fantastic work in the Department. It would bailed out by taxpayers just a few years ago, that they be wrong for UK manufacturing and the UK economy have a moral duty to lend to viable small businesses to as a whole if we thought that business resided in Victoria create jobs and growth. I have four seconds left, so with street. That is not how it should be and that should be that I will hand over to the Minister, who we are all impressed on every Whitehall Department. There also looking forward— needs to be a degree of consensus across the House and Whitehall on the importance of manufacturing, which Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): No, you will not. would facilitate the suggestion made by the hon. Member for South Staffordshire. Chris White: Sorry; I will hand over to the shadow As was mentioned, continuity of policy is important. Minister. It is pleasing that much of the good news from Jaguar Land Rover and other parts of the automotive sector is 10.40 am the fruition of policies laid down by the previous Government as part of the new industry, new jobs Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure initiative, the low-carbon vehicles sector initiative and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I the points made in government by my right hon. Friend congratulate the hon. Member for South Staffordshire the Member for Wolverhampton South East. Such (Gavin Williamson) on securing the debate and thank continuity and certainty over the next 20, 30 or 40 years him for the consensual tone that he set, which has been would help British manufacturing and must be a hallmark characteristic of the debate. Today’s debate is on promoting of good industrial policy. manufacturing in the west midlands, and from listening to hon. Members today, I think there is much to promote. Despite the good news and positive figures from Hon. Members’ contributions have strongly brought Jaguar Land Rover and the consensual tone of this out the region’s clear strength in automotives in particular debate, there are concerns, which I would like to flag up. and manufacturing in general. Office for National Statistics figures published last Friday show that a manufacturing-led economic recovery has I join other hon. Members, particularly my hon. stalled; manufacturing output on a seasonally adjusted Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard basis fell by 2.1% in November 2012 compared with Burden), who brought his considerable expertise in the November 2011, and that month’s figure in 2011 was automotive industry to bear, in welcoming the great itself a fall of 0.6% on the previous year. For all the talk news announced in the past 24 hours that Jaguar Land from the Chancellor and others of a march of the Rover is to create 800 new production jobs at its plant in makers, manufacturing output is significantly down, Solihull. That is a welcome counter to last week’s grim even from the recession—on ONS figures, the index of news that Honda will cut 800 jobs from its factory in manufacturing is 6% below the level of summer 2010. Swindon. Jaguar Land Rover sold almost 360,000 vehicles last year—an increase of 30% on the previous year—and The national picture is confirmed in the west midlands. is rightly recognised, as we have seen today, as a true The survey published last Monday by the West Midlands success of British manufacturing. chamber of commerce showed, for the last quarter of 2012, My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) mentioned the potential for the west midlands “most companies, especially manufacturers, struggling to maintain their performance levels”. of the development of advanced low-emission vehicle technology. It is similar to my region of the north-east, In the survey, only 31% of manufacturers—down 10% which was at the heart of, and the spark that brought on a year ago—reported an increase in domestic sales. about, the industrial revolution—I want to put that on Exports, which should be the lifeblood of an economic the record. It is an example of how a modern industrial recovery, also showed a dip from their position last strategy should work: businesses and Government working year. Steve Brittan, president of Birmingham chamber not in silos, as the hon. Member for South Staffordshire of commerce, said at the time of the survey’s publication rightly said, but together to identify the sectors in which last week: we have a competitive advantage and the potential for “These figures are a concern and demonstrate that the government high growth in the future; and Government enabling must act on its priorities.” 201WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 202WH

Given the huge potential of manufacturing in the west Mr Marcus Jones: The hon. Gentleman seems to be midlands and across the country, and the stalling, giving glowing praise to the role of RDAs, particularly disappointing and deteriorating position for manufacturers, in the west midlands. If they were so successful, why what will the Minister pledge to do differently to realise during the time of the RDAs did private sector employment the potential? reduce in the west midlands, not increase?

The hon. Member for South Staffordshire mentioned Mr Wright: In general terms—I declare an interest in the regional growth fund, and the Minister will no that I worked for an RDA before coming to the House— doubt be aware of the Public Accounts Committee [Interruption.] It is probably for the best. The RDAs report that shows that only £60 million of the £1.4 billion produced something like £6 of private investment for allocated has been spent on front-line projects. The west every £1 of public investment. midlands was awarded 31 grants in the first two rounds of the regional growth fund, but as of October last year, Given the importance of a single co-ordinated point some 18 months after the first round, only eight schemes to ensure co-ordination, does the Minister think that had received funding. My right hon. Friend the Member the move from RDAs to local enterprise partnerships—I for Wolverhampton South East eloquently raised that think there are now six in the west midlands—has point; there is a huge difference in Whitehall culture improved matters and provided a more co-ordinated between announcing an initiative and getting the money approach? Ernst and Young conclude in the survey to the people on the front line. Will the Minister update that: the House on how he has speeded up the process to “A more strategic approach to FDI that places inward investment ensure that money is provided as quickly as possible? within the overall economic context is required if the UK is to What lessons have been learned for round 3? I understand retain its lead in an increasingly competitive global market for that the west midlands secured £124 million for 17 FDI.” projects in October 2012. Three months after the It should be one of the hallmarks of a co-ordinated and announcement, how much of that £124 million has active Government industrial strategy, so will the Minister found its way to those 17 projects? say a little about it? Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry The survey by the chamber of commerce, to which I South (Mr Cunningham) raised the important subject referred, shows that the cash and financial position for of Manganese Bronze. The Minister will be aware of manufacturers was getting worse over the last quarter. this company, based in Coventry, which is Britain’s only Only 16% of west midlands manufacturers registered black cab manufacturer and was placed in administration an improved cash-flow position compared with 31% in on 22 October last year. There is a strong possibility the previous quarter. The survey also marked low investment that a foreign buyer may manufacture the London taxis in plant and machinery and training, which shows, abroad. Will he say a little more on that and update the according to the chamber, a general lack of confidence House as much as possible on the current situation? among manufacturers. Given the concern of manufacturers, Specifically, will he set out what action he has taken the past performance of the regional growth fund and with interested parties to ensure that the manufacture perennial concerns regarding cash and access to finance, of black cabs takes place in the UK, and in Coventry in what will Minister do differently to realise the potential? particular? Could he say a little more about how a British investment bank, announced in September by the Secretary of This has been a positive and consensual debate, and I State, might have a regional dimension to assist west congratulate the hon. Member for South Staffordshire midlands manufacturers? again. It is clear that we need to back British manufacturers, particularly in the west midlands, in a co-ordinated, Hon. Members have spoken about the successes of long-term way. I am interested to hear what the Minister manufacturing and how successful foreign direct investment has to say about allowing that potential to be realised. can transform industrial performance. Jaguar Land Rover is the obvious example, but there are others and I hope we are not complacent. We need to determine how to 10.50 am help the English regions. The Minister may have seen The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Ernst and Young’s attractiveness survey for 2012, which and Skills (Michael Fallon): I, too, congratulate my hon. showed London and the south-east securing more FDI Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin projects than the rest of England put together, and that Williamson) on securing such a good debate on such an grip is intensifying. The west midlands showed year-on-year important subject. I thank all those who spoke and falls in FDI of about a quarter. The report tentatively attended. Some 11 Government Members from the suggests that it is “worth noting” that the closure of region have attended, as against four or five Opposition English regional development agencies, including Advantage Members, although I do not want to make a point of West Midlands, occurred in 2011. that. I also thank colleagues for the spirit in which they made their points. We have had some interesting discussions The report states that only 12% of respondents say on the precise history of the industrial revolution. We that they would use UK Trade and Investment for might have had some interesting discussions on the queries regarding FDI. Foreign investors are unclear as actual cause of the turnaround of the British automotive to whom they should go to in the regions if they were industry, which I believe is founded on the dramatic considering investment in manufacturing. Given that changes in labour relations undertaken by the Thatcher the debate is on promoting manufacturing in the west Government and the inward investment that Margaret midlands, it is a crucial question: who does a potential Thatcher and Norman Tebbit brought in when they investor from Singapore or China contact in the west brought Nissan to the north-east of England, but I do midlands to get things done and facilitate investment? not want to pursue that point too far. 203WH Manufacturing (West Midlands)15 JANUARY 2013 Manufacturing (West Midlands) 204WH

[Michael Fallon] last autumn statement, we provided more measures to encourage greater investment in manufacturing, such as I thank all those who have spoken, especially those a significant temporary increase in the annual investment who have been free with invitations to visit their allowance from £25,000 to £250,000. That is a tenfold constituencies, all of which I will consider. I have not increase. An additional £210 million will be added to been left much time to reply to the individual points, the regional growth fund until March 2015 which, with but I am happy to write to all colleagues. Some good the £100 million allocated from previous rounds, means points have been made about Lord Heseltine’s review, that a new total of more than £310 million will be the role of the local enterprise partnerships, wave two of available. There will also be an extra £120 million for the city deals, the importance of supply chains and the advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative. I what we are doing to improve skills. Some specific assure you, Mr Williams, that the Government have points have been made about black cab manufacturing never been clearer in our commitment to manufacturing, and so on, and I am happy to reassure the hon. Member which we see as an essential building block of a more for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) that we are dealing with resilient, innovative economy. that issue. The west midlands accounted for more than 7% of The west midlands is vital not only to UK manufacturing, the United Kingdom’s gross value added in 2010. It is but to economic growth in the wider economy. It sits at important for us all, wherever our constituencies are, the very heart of British industry. Last Thursday, I that the west midlands is successful and prosperous. It visited the Birmingham area to see for myself some of has long been at the heart of British manufacturing. In the great things—we have heard about many others—that recent times, we have had much welcome news of private are being achieved by manufacturers across the west sector investment, including by BMW at Hams Hall, by midlands, such as Aero Engine Controls, a leading Jaguar Land Rover, as I have mentioned, near aerospace and defence manufacturing company and a Wolverhampton, and by JCB, which is investing more key part of the supply chain of the aerospace industry, than £31 million to develop new engine technology. The or Quality Plated Products, which will be using funding region also has a thriving small and medium-sized from our advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative enterprises sector working in the advanced manufacturing to increase capacity, create more jobs and start a new supply chain, in particular in the automotive and aerospace apprenticeship scheme. I also visited what is now called sectors. A significant part of the Rolls Royce supply Mondelez International, which owns the Cadbury brand, chain is in the west midlands. Employment in the region to launch its primary authority partnership with has increased by nearly 60,000 since the general election. Birmingham city council. That deal will cut red tape, Jaguar Land Rover’s announcement of record global reduce duplication and ensure high safety standards sales last year is excellent news. while reducing costs. That is one of hundreds of companies The regional growth fund is helping to rebalance the that have taken the opportunity to work closely with economy, especially those areas that were over-dependent their local authorities to reduce the burden of regulation. on the public sector. The fund is working and is unlocking The constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for private sector investment. The west midlands was awarded South Staffordshire is home to the high-tech i54 business the largest regional allocation of the fund in round park, where two global companies, Moog and Eurofins, three. Some £194 million was provisionally allocated to are thriving. Jaguar Land Rover has become the third programmes and projects with a strong focus on high-value major international company that has chosen to move manufacturing growth. to the site, investing £355 million in a new advanced I was asked a couple of specific questions about the engine manufacturing facility, bringing with it 750 jobs fund. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire and thousands more via supply chain opportunities. asked about smaller companies. They can and will No one is under any illusions, however, about the benefit through the programme bids that have been scale of the wider challenges we face. The eurozone’s awarded under the fund, rather than through the big continuing sovereign debt crisis is affecting our economy project bids for individual companies and plants. The and depressing demand, causing uncertainty for business, right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East and I recognise that the west midlands manufacturing (Mr McFadden) made a fair point about getting the centre has not been immune to such pressures, which money out of the door. We have set new triggers to were pronounced under the Labour Government. I ensure that final offers are agreed under round three think the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) within three months. That timetable expires this week. was honest enough to admit that. They presided over The grants must then finally be awarded within three the fastest ever decline in manufacturing as a share of months, by 17 April. We will set similar and probably the economy. Its share of GDP fell by nearly 10%, and faster triggers under round four, which we expect to almost 1.7 million jobs were lost in the sector. Under announce later this week. I am determined to ensure the present Government, its share of GDP is growing that money physically gets out of the door and to the again and our manufacturing capability is increasing in companies that need it as quickly as possible, subject to quality—no more so than in the west midlands—and the proper due diligence that the Public Accounts represents a crucial platform on which to build economic Committee and our taxpayers expect to see carried out. growth and recovery. In conclusion, the Government are working hard to To kick-start recovery, the Government had to tackle encourage and support British manufacturers and to the deficit and take tough decisions, but we have also create an environment in which they are free to thrive taken a wholly different approach to unlocking growth. and compete in a global marketplace. The importance We are reducing the red tape that holds business back of the west midlands as a manufacturing region is one and creating a competitive tax system so that businesses of the reasons why it makes such an excellent location choose to locate and grow in this country and, in the to hold our third manufacturing summit, which is taking 205WH Manufacturing (West Midlands) 15 JANUARY 2013 206WH place at the Heritage Motor Centre in Gaydon on Party Political Broadcasts 28 February. Those annual summits are an important part of our approach to having increased engagement with the sector and will bring together key stakeholders, 11 am including senior leaders from Government and from George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): It national and local businesses. There will also be an is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, exhibition at that summit to showcase local manufacturing Mr Williams. I want to start by saying a little about excellence. We want manufacturers in the west midlands the history of party political broadcasts. The very first to be our partners in achieving economic transformation radio broadcast was as long ago as 1924, and we have and recovery—a strategy that places world-class had televised party political broadcasts since 1951, but manufacturing at the heart of a healthy and rebalanced in that time the format has hardly changed, and my economy in the United Kingdom. argument today is that it is time for change. The combination of declining newspaper circulation and increased restriction on parties’ ability to raise and to spend funds means that we should take a fresh look at how we give them the opportunity through party political broadcasts to communicate directly with the electorate. It is time to value party political broadcasts more. I shall say a little about why party political broadcasts matter, and emphasise that we all under-appreciate them. When I was press secretary to the then Leader of the Opposition some years ago, I attended the broadcasters liaison group, which was an annual get-together of the main political parties with the main broadcasters to discuss the format and some of the issues arising from party political broadcasts. The format followed a weary predictability, in that parties such as the Welsh nationalists and the Scottish nationalists complained to the broadcasters that they were not getting enough broadcasts, and the broadcasters complained to the main parties that they were too late delivering their broadcasts and films, thus causing all sorts of logistical problems. The main parties also complained that there was not enough flexibility in the system and that they were unable to get their message across as much as they would like. Among politicos and those who are politically active, it is common to hear that no one watches party political broadcasts because they are old hat, no one is interested and no one cares, but the evidence does not bear that out. An Ofcom report in 2005 commissioned ICM polling, which found that party political broadcasts were second to broadcast news bulletins as the lead source of information for the public when deciding how they would vote. The importance of party political broadcasts to voters was higher than newspapers and radio, whether national or local, so it is important that we value them. One hears from so-called communication experts in political parties that such broadcasts are old hat and that things have moved on with viral marketing and everything on the internet. The belief is that they are rather quaint and a relic of the past, but that is not true and the rise of the internet, certainly when it comes to politics, has been exaggerated. The internet has made an astounding breakthrough in shopping, social media and other aspects, but when people want political news, the traditional media undoubtedly remain the main source of information, particularly the broadcast news media. As a result of our under-appreciation of party political broadcasts, a number of things have happened. The parties put less effort into their films. They tend to produce shorter broadcasts using more amateur, in-house camera teams, and production and finish have been in decline in recent years. Broadcasters have started to look for excuses to wind down their commitment to 207WH Party Political Broadcasts15 JANUARY 2013 Party Political Broadcasts 208WH

[George Eustice] he strongly believed, only to see it interpreted as a pitch to women voters or to the youth vote, or trying to political broadcasts. The current Ofcom consultation appease core voters. It was always interpreted through recommends changing the time that parties have for the prism of political strategy, which undermines public broadcasts. At the moment, they have an option of trust in the political process, unnecessarily in my view. 2 minutes 40 seconds, 3 minutes 40 seconds or 4 minutes A further problem with too-powerful broadcasting 40 seconds, and a proposal on the table suggests that media is a tendency to have hostile interviews with a that should be standardised at 2 minutes. duel between the interviewer and the politician, because It is worth noting that the UK probably has the most the programme’s objective is to make the politician look draconian laws and restrictions on political advertising evasive and on the back foot. Programme formats are in the democratic world, to the point of questioning often designed to do that, whether or not that is the case. whether that is compliant with article 10 of the European For all those reasons, we need to reform the system. convention on human rights. I do not tend to pray in As I said, at the moment the larger parties typically aid the European Court of Human Rights, or to suggest are given three party election broadcasts during an that we should follow its guidance on such matters, but election period. They have a choice between 2 minutes we should reflect on the fact that there is a question 40 seconds, 3 minutes 40 seconds, and 4 minutes 40 seconds. mark about whether our approach is compliant and I think we should take a fundamental look at that, whether it might be open to future challenge. A report because the big problem with the current system of by the European Commission back in 2002 concluded party election broadcasts is the lack of frequency.Somebody that our current approach would probably stand up to might see two Labour party political broadcasts but no a challenge in the ECHR, but only if we maintain a Conservative broadcasts, or they might see two Conservative robust and free system for party political broadcasts. ones and none by Labour. We should look to increase Our newspaper industry is in decline. Some hon. their frequency but have shorter party broadcasts. Members will know that I have argued that we should Rather than having three broadcasts of up to say, have more credible, independent regulation of our 4 minutes 40 seconds, my proposal is that instead we newspapers and that that requires some form of statutory have a total of 12 minutes that can be used in a more underpinning, but our press should be robust, and free flexible range of ways. They could be anything as short to be one-sided, partial and heavily opinionated. I will as one minute, so potentially, there could be up to always defend their right to hold strong opinions, but 12 broadcasts of one minute, or there could be a mixture they have been in decline for many years and that of long and short broadcasts. That would introduce decline may even be terminal. Their influence is certainly flexibility, and the advantage is that public engagement far less today than several years ago, and linked to that and the chances that the public would see those broadcasts is the problem of increased restrictions on political would be increased. It would also increase the chances parties, which face falling membership, making it harder of people staying tuned in long enough for them to for them to raise money. The Political Parties, Elections receive the message. and Referendums Act 2000 introduced caps on party I first proposed that idea at the broadcasters liaison political spending, and new measures to strengthen still group, way back in 2006. I have to say that at that point further transparency of donations and to prevent foreign there was a “sucking on teeth” moment, as it was donations. Cross-party talks are taking place on taking explained to me that we could not possibly have US-style those restrictions further and placing caps on the size of political advertising here in Britain. That was an absolute individual donations. no-no. We must never go down that route. However, I If party political broadcasts are under-appreciated, think it is time for us to challenge that lazy assumption, political parties certainly are. No democracy can work because as I said, we have laws in that area that are without political parties making their case and having more draconian than in perhaps any other democracy robust argument with one another. Some of the restrictions in the world. We have an extraordinary situation where that we are introducing are right, but we must accept it is now okay to have advertising for toys to children at that they restrict political parties’ ability to communicate 6.30 or 7 o’clock in the morning while their unsuspecting directly with the electorate, and leave more power than parents are in bed, but we cannot possibly tolerate the ever with the broadcasters. A duty of impartiality is thought of advertising political ideas to grown adults. enshrined in legislation, but the legal framework under We need to challenge that idea and understand that which they operate creates a particular character of the real objection to US-style political advertising is not journalism. They are required to balance both sides, so the adverts’ length, but the fact that they are paid-for they often come up with anodyne reports that do not adverts, which means that money buys access to television help the public to reach an opinion. and that it therefore buys power. That is not what my There is always an emphasis on the two-way with the proposal envisages at all. There would be equal, equitable political correspondent, so a party leader who has just access to broadcasting time, calculated along similar given a speech may be given 12 to 18 seconds to explain lines to what we already have in the UK. Access would what they are trying to do, so that there will be plenty of not be paid for, so a wealthy individual or a wealthy time for a one-minute or two-minute two-way with the party would not be allowed to buy more airtime than correspondent when they try to put a gloss on what the any other. party leader is supposedly saying. That has led to over- The second thing to bear in mind is that with our emphasis on process and political strategy instead of party election broadcasts, we already have a number of giving politicians credit for doing what they do most rules that would prevent broadcasts, even if they were of the time—saying what they believe. When I worked shorter, from going the route of US-style advertising. for the then Leader of the Opposition, I lost count of The most important rule is that a politician from another the number of times that he gave a speech about something party, or footage of them, is not allowed to be used in a 209WH Party Political Broadcasts15 JANUARY 2013 Party Political Broadcasts 210WH broadcast without their prior consent. In practice, that We as a Government recognise that party political means that video footage of a politician’s opponents broadcasts, in which I include party election broadcasts, cannot be used in broadcasts, which means, for instance, are an important part of a healthy democratic society. that the Clinton attack on George Bush senior—the Having guaranteed access for political parties to television famous “Read my lips” advert that they ran—would and radio from time to time provides the opportunity not be allowed in the UK. It also means that the for the main political parties to share their policies, flip-flop windsurfing advert that was used so effectively explain their views and engage fully with the electorate— against John Kerry by the Republicans in 2004 would without the gloss of a BBC political editor overlaid on not be allowed here in the UK. We have different rules, top, as my hon. Friend hinted. It allows viewers to which would prevent advertising becoming like it is in consider complex issues that may not be even covered in the US. the news, and, crucially, it does so in the context of a system that is fair and balanced. In addition, at the time Finally, we have to understand that there is a cultural of elections, the parties are better able to set out their difference in any event. When we look at the way agenda to the whole electorate for public debate. Access American politics is debated, it can seem to us somewhat to that information is vital when people are making crass and somewhat brash, and it would not work here important democratic decisions, whether in general, in this country. We would end up with a shorter type of local or European elections. broadcast that would fit our political culture. It is not inevitable that it would go the route of the US. Before It is absolutely right that from time to time we carefully we get too high-minded about it, it is also worth noting consider the rules surrounding party political broadcasts. that many Americans tune in to watch Prime Minister’s As my hon. Friend probably does not need to be reminded, questions each week for pure entertainment value, because the Communications Act 2003 requires licensed public they cannot believe that we tolerate something quite so service television broadcasters and the national analogue hostile and aggressive on our Prime Minister. commercial stations to include party political broadcasts and referendum campaign broadcasts in their programming, In conclusion, I want to add that although people in accordance with rules determined by Ofcom, the talk about this matter through the prism of what happens independent media regulator. Other channels such as in the US, we should also remember what happens in Sky are not under such an obligation, but party political the rest of the world. Australia, which has a similar broadcasts are shown voluntarily on Sky’s news channel. parliamentary democracy to us, has a hybrid system: it As the BBC is, of course, outwith that general regulation, has political broadcasts, but political advertising is also there is a separate agreement between the Government allowed. That is counterbalanced by a cooling-off period, and the BBC that places a formal obligation to include so that in the final three days of an election, there is no party political broadcasts and specifies that the regulation political advertising at all. Barbados, which is small, but of that should be a matter for the BBC Trust. another Commonwealth country, has a system similar Although my hon. Friend was correct to point out to what I outlined. The two main parties are given some that certain parts of the media are under pressure, he 45 minutes of airtime, but there is more flexibility about will be aware of the new opportunity for all elected how that time can be used. Ireland has a similar system representatives to get our message across in the long-awaited of party election broadcasts to ours, and it frequently advent of local television. Local television licences are, has broadcasts that are as short as one minute, which even as we speak, being awarded across the UK by does not cause problems there. It is also worth remembering Ofcom. The latest licences for Glasgow and Edinburgh that in the rest of the EU, the new members and have just been awarded, and I am looking forward to democracies in eastern Europe—countries such as Poland, hearing who will be the successful bidder for the London Estonia and Finland—allow political advertising, and licence later this year. quite often that is completely unrestricted. To return to the subject in hand, Ofcom’s guidelines It is time for us to take a second look at this issue. If on party political broadcasts set out the framework in we were to reform this area, we could find a new way of which broadcasters must decide the allocation and allowing political parties to communicate directly with scheduling of broadcasts. It is of course a matter for the electorate. If we got it right, it could be an alternative political parties to decide the length of broadcasts, but to the state funding of political parties, which, as we all my hon. Friend is right that they are limited to certain know, the public have no appetite for. lengths—two minutes and 40 seconds, three minutes and 40 seconds, or four minutes and 40 seconds. The BBC Trust and the Welsh authority apply similar rules 11.15 am to BBC services and to S4C. I note what my hon. Friend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, said about the Ofcom consultation suggesting a one-size- Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a great fits-all two-minute length for a party political broadcast. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, He made a persuasive case for allowing political parties Mr Williams. I begin by thanking my hon. Friend the the right to choose flexible lengths for their political Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) broadcasts, depending on when they would be aired. for securing this important debate on a topic that I Let me state clearly who qualifies for party political know he has been raising for some time. He provides the broadcasts, because that is an important part of this House today with an opportunity to discuss the important debate. It is only the major parties: in Great Britain, the subject of party political broadcasting. As he has shown Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats; in convincingly, such broadcasts are one of the most important Scotland and Wales respectively, depending on one’s democratic tools that we have available to us in point of view, the Scottish National party and Plaid the United Kingdom, so they are worthy of serious Cymru also qualify; and of course in Northern Ireland, consideration in the House. the Democratic Unionists, the Social Democratic and 211WH Party Political Broadcasts15 JANUARY 2013 Party Political Broadcasts 212WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] I was not. Does my hon. Friend accept that we need a range of different sources of information for the public? Labour party, Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists. However, Yes, we need tough broadcast news bulletins that will smaller parties can also be represented in party political ask the searching, difficult questions, but for all the broadcasts if they are registered with the Electoral reasons outlined, we also need to create better opportunities Commission and contesting one sixth or more of the for political parties to articulate their agenda and their seats up for election. Of course, that has to be modified message, in their own terms, directly to the voters. where a proportional representation system is in place. There are additional rules about the qualification of Mr Vaizey: I am sorry if I gave the impression that I parties in the different nations of the UK and how they had got the impression from my hon. Friend that he did qualify for broadcasts on Channels 4 and Five and on not think that news media should be impartial. That national commercial radio; and of course there are certainly was not the impression that I wished to give, different rules relating to a referendum, European but I do hear what he says and I think that that goes to parliamentary elections, Scottish Parliament and Welsh the central thrust of his argument, which is that the and Northern Ireland Assembly elections, Greater London current rules, to a certain extent, are archaic and that authority and local elections, and other key events. there should be more flexibility and innovation in the There is a plethora of rules, Mr Williams, and I know opportunities given to political parties. However, I stress that you will breathe a sigh of relief when I tell you that that that is his argument; I will continue to hold the line I will not go through them. I simply refer you to in the rest of my speech. Ofcom’s website, if you want to catch up on them later I am sure that hon. Members recognise that Ofcom in the day. has developed the existing rules to ensure that the Within the terms of the rules, the precise allocation system remains workable, but it does take into account of broadcasts is the responsibility of the broadcasters. a number of considerations, which include ensuring Any unresolved disputes relating to the length, frequency, that the public can clearly tell that they are watching a allocation or scheduling of broadcasts can be referred party political broadcast rather than a television programme either by the political party or by the broadcaster to or an advert. It is important to maintain that distinction. Ofcom. We also have a long-standing ban on political advertising I think that we in the House all accept that party in the UK. That is an interesting issue and worthy of political broadcasting should be regulated, because we debate. I happen to believe that we should continue the want to ensure that party political broadcasts are fair ban on political advertising. I heard what my hon. and that different political parties are represented Friend said about the stance of the European Court of proportionately and appropriately. It is certainly still Human Rights, but we need only look across the pond the Government’s view that the combination of the at the United States. I certainly feel that the ban in the statutory framework, Ofcom’s rules and the voluntary UK gains a lot of credibility from watching what happens arrangements of broadcasters achieves that, but that is in the United States, where vast amounts of money are not to say that we are opposed to any change or spent and targeted on hapless voters, particularly in key evolution in this area. In fact, we welcome discussion. swing states, who see nothing but blanket political As I said, Ofcom draws up guidelines for party political advertisements. broadcasts, and it reviews them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth pointed out, Ofcom George Eustice: What is my hon. Friend’s objection is undertaking a review of several aspects of the guidelines, to political advertising? Is it the same as mine, which is partly to take local television into account, but also to that paid-for political advertising gives an advantage to take into account the newly elected police and crime those with money, or is it that he believes that advertising commissioners and the impact that their elections might per se is somehow an evil, wrong thing to do? have on future political broadcasts. Today’s debate is therefore an excellent opportunity to raise issues, and Mr Vaizey: I hate to think that I might have given my my hon. Friend has done exactly that. I should make all hon. Friend the impression that I think that advertising Members of the House who are participating in this is a hateful practice. I am the Minister responsible for debate aware that the consultation closes on 21 January. the advertising industry and I go out of my way to I hope that if hon. Members want to make representations praise the UK advertising industry as world-beating. It to that consultation, they will do so. is probably the best advertising industry in the world Some may disagree, but my view is that, in relation to and provides hundreds of thousands of jobs in this the current system, we do not want to risk undermining country, so I certainly would not want to give that the important principle of impartiality on British television impression. No, my objection to political advertising is and radio. That is what television viewers and radio similar to my hon. Friend’s, which is that it gives an listeners have come to expect. They can be sure that advantage to political parties that have deeper pockets what they see and hear on television and radio is than their opponents. It is also somewhat of a cultural balanced, fair and impartial. That is different from the objection: to a certain extent, politics in this country is situation with newspapers, but, again, people who read still conducted on a relatively civilised basis, and I newspapers will broadly understand the political slant wonder whether political advertising might undermine or stance of the particular newspaper that they choose that. However, this is becoming a debate about political to buy. advertising when it should be a debate about party political broadcasting. George Eustice: I completely agree. If I gave the We are undertaking a communications review, but as impression that I was arguing for broadcasters to be I have made clear, we are not contemplating radical able to become partial, I would like to make it clear that change. Given the clear views expressed by my hon. 213WH Party Political Broadcasts 15 JANUARY 2013 214WH

Friend today, I hope that he will respond to the Ofcom Electoral Registration consultation, as he has some interesting proposals. However, as I said, I think it is right and proper that we have our [MR ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] present system; it is right and proper that people engage with it and suggest certain changes that they may wish 2.30 pm to see; and it is right and proper that an independent regulator oversees that debate and makes recommendations Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Thank you, based on the consultation that it is currently undertaking. Mr Owen, for chairing this important debate. Democracy is deep in the DNA of my constituency, 11.28 am Blaenau Gwent. Growing up there, I learned about its rich social history, including how it provided leadership Sitting suspended. for the Chartist movement, which did so much to secure the vote for working people. From the caves in the village of Trefil, where they are said to have stored pikes before the march on Newport in 1839, to Nantyglo, where Zephaniah Williams, the Newport rising’s leader, lived, Blaenau Gwent has long been at the centre of democracy building in the UK. Although the battle for the vote has been won by working people, to exercise their vote, people must first be on the electoral register. That leads us to the dry, but crucial topic of how to get the best register possible. Free and fair election machinery is one of the most fundamental services the state can provide for its people. From it, our democracy thrives. The electoral register is, as the Electoral Commission says, the bedrock of our democracy. As we all know, the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill—the ERA—is in the Lords, following consideration in the House of Commons. We know, too, that Labour legislated to introduce individual electoral registration—IER—so there is no disagreement amongst us about the principle. For background: as of December 2010, the Electoral Commission estimated that the register was 85% to 87% complete, which means that 6 million people were missing from it. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith), who is responsible for political and constitutional reform, may have more recent figures, and it would be interesting to hear the Government’s latest estimate. I want the effective introduction of IER. I want many more, not fewer, people on the electoral register. I am worried about the Government’s proposals for IER in the future. With all our different sources of identification, the megabytes of data available and the contact channels in use through modern media, a complete and accurate electoral register should be deliverable. Crucially, I want to see the annual canvass maintained. An individual knocking on a potential voter’s door is still probably the most effective way to get people registered. Face-to-face contact is as important as ever in our digital age. The Minister told me that the annual canvass will continue to be used as long as it remains the best way to register voters. That is good. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): When the changes to electoral registration were introduced in Northern Ireland in 2006, under a Labour Government, the need for an annual canvass was removed. Over the past five or six years, registration rates have gone down to 71%. Does my hon. Friend think that the figures from Northern Ireland have a bearing on the debate today? Nick Smith: My hon. Friend makes an important point, which I want to cover later. The decline in registration in Northern Ireland is an important warning for the debate today and for the future of IER. 215WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 216WH

[Nick Smith] Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that continuous electoral To return to the annual canvass, I am with the Electoral registration will at least be easier in Northern Ireland Commission: it should be a permanent feature. Also, than in some parts of our cities, particularly London, surely the full implementation of IER should wait until where population turnover is a good deal higher and the evaluation of all the current data-matching and there is much more diversity? data-mining pilots is complete. As we know, the first set of pilot schemes took place during the annual canvass Nick Smith: That is a very powerful point. The churn in late 2011. The Electoral Commission found that the in London and our cities is much greater than it is pilots had been both time-consuming and costly. Councils outside. said that they lacked sufficient skilled staff to carry out Chris Ruane: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way a the data input and matching. The pilots were funded by third time. Does he agree that churn is great not only in the Cabinet Office, so given the squeeze on local our cities and student towns, but in seaside towns? government, it must be doubtful whether councils can There are 52 principal seaside towns in the UK that do the data matching without more money for such have high levels of transience, and their registers will be important work. Given that, the Electoral Commission down too. says that data matching should be tested further, and I am glad that further pilots are taking place. Nick Smith: My hon. Friend has helpfully corrected Data matching trials with the Royal Mail and the me. He points to the difficulties of churn in many parts Student Loans Company are also under way. They will of the UK. I have been to the lovely town of Rhyl, and I be helpful for groups of people who have historically know of the difficulties there in getting a complete been difficult to register, which include younger people, register. people from black and minority ethnic communities, Last week, the Minister said that and people who rent from private landlords. I am sure “continuous registration is working for the majority of the population we all want to reach such people. in Northern Ireland.”—[Official Report, 8 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 142.] Until now, we have considered data matching only Registration of 51% would be a majority, but surely with publicly held information, but I think it could be that is wordplay and shows a lack of ambition; after all, helpful to include private sector databases, such as 71% completion is failing nearly a third of the eligible credit reference agencies and tenancy deposit schemes. electorate. The Government must up their game. Electoral Privacy concerns must of course be addressed, but registration needs to be professionally marketed and home addresses for contracts or purchases of, say, mobile administered in all Government contact with the public, phones, cars and personal finance can identify where and perhaps with private sector data as well. Given voters live and so could be on the electoral register. concerns about under-registration, there should be a Having said that, caution is essential. full carry-forward of postal or proxy votes for the 2015 Last November, the Electoral Commission, published general election. If that does not happen, the Government a report, “Continuous electoral registration in Northern must ensure that sufficient resources are provided, so Ireland”. Its conclusion is stark: there has been a that as many postal voters as possible are verified and considerable deterioration in both the accuracy and the able to vote. completeness of the electoral register in Northern Ireland As a constructive critic, the independent Electoral over the past four years. From a register estimated in Commission must have an absolutely central role in the 2008 to be 83% complete and 90% accurate, the latest switch to IER. I hope that the Minister will tell us today appraisal found one that is only 71% complete and 78% when online voter registration will be ready for launch. accurate. That is very worrying. The Government must invest in and develop accessible online registration with greater speed. If the internet is Chris Ruane: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way used successfully for banking and payment systems, on that point. He is right about the 71% completeness, surely it can be developed for voter registration. as of last year, but does he think that it will have a knock-on effect on the redrawing of boundaries? If the Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): My hon. boundary change proposals are successful, they will go Friend is being generous in giving way during this through in Northern Ireland with 29% of the population important debate. Does he agree that this plethora of missing from the register. initiatives—they are absolutely essential, as he is arguing— should include one by the Electoral Commission aimed Nick Smith: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful specifically at people with literacy problems? I believe point. That is why the Electoral Commission called the that they are under-represented on the register, and they electoral register the bedrock of our democracy: it certainly are in voting. Obviously, for that initiative to decides how many people are in each constituency and reach them, it needs to be delivered through audiovisual where those constituencies are. It is essential that we get advertising. this right. Nick Smith: My right hon. Friend makes a good The management of continuous registration has not argument, and I hope that that will be included in the been able to cope with two important things: people studies taking place. It is essential that as many people moving home and people becoming eligible to vote. as possible can to register and vote. That is where it needs to be improved. The Electoral As we know, changes to electoral registration will be Commission has called for urgent action to remedy the made at a time when local authorities face significant situation and a more flexible form of annual canvass, so cuts. Expenditure in this area should be prioritised, that households as well as individuals can update the because our democracy is too important to be whittled register. away by a thousand cuts. 217WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 218WH

Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): As a Newport Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Lords MP, I very much enjoyed my hon. Friend’s earlier has quite rightly rejected this Government’s attempt to reference to the Chartists. We put a huge burden on our gerrymander the new boundaries in their favour. Does electoral administrators and, as he says, electoral registration my hon. Friend agree that they should concentrate on is not immune to the big local authority cuts. Does he getting electoral registration up, so that when we redraw agree that, with more elections than ever before and the boundaries, it will be done on the basis of the most given that burden, it is even more important that we accurate figures possible? resource election administrators properly?

Nick Smith: I agree. Election administrators rightly Paul Blomfield: I very much agree with that point, complain about the amount of resources they are given which I will move on to. The relationship between the to do their important job. They should be supported boundary review and the number of people registered both locally and nationally. to vote—the basis on which we calculate boundaries—is an important issue. As it stands, the boundary review I believe that it is the responsibility of the state, not of would exacerbate the problem, not simply because of political parties, to secure maximum voter registration, under-registration, but because of the point in the so I hope that the Minister that will commit herself to electoral cycle at which that review would be conducted, that and give priority to those hard-to-reach voters, with the next one being in December 2015. particularly the young. Voting is a habit best acquired early, and one that we should all strive to promote. The I worry that individual registration threatens to make Government need to show much more ambition on the situation worse, which is why I have argued that we voter registration. Let us get the 6 million people who should base our boundaries on adult population, not should be on the electoral register signed up and able to numbers of registered voters. Whether or not we go vote in the future. down that route, there is a need massively to improve voter registration, because if we do not, we risk creating a US-style democracy, with huge under-registration 2.41 pm that excludes the disadvantaged and disengaged and focuses elections on the needs of the more privileged, so Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure poisoning our politics. to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau I am sure that many measures will be proposed by my Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing this debate, which is hon. Friends, but I want to concentrate on young people. not only important, but on the afternoon following the From my election campaign, I can think of many vote in the House of Lords to postpone the next boundary examples of speaking to young people on the doorstep. review until 2018, clearly timely. I have to say that I At the outset of the conversation, it was clear that they welcome that decision. The proposed new boundaries had no intention of voting and that they would never would have benefited me electorally, but they are unfair have been on the electoral roll had it not been for their and undermine our democracy, precisely because of the parents, but in many cases—the marked register confirms mismatch between population and registration that was this—after that conversation and having engaged with so ably highlighted by my hon. Friend in his comments. the issues, they voted. That vote would otherwise have been denied them. The Government need to focus I want to illustrate that point by comparing my specifically on imaginative ways to ensure the effective constituency with that of my political neighbour, the registration of young people—working with schools, Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for using social media and considering other ways to address Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg). My constituency is in the that group. heart of Sheffield—inner-city, multicultural, with large council estates and two universities—and 17% of I want to talk particularly about students. Not all households have nobody on the register. The Deputy students are young, but the vast majority are, and given Prime Minister’s constituency, which is like a piece of the impact of Government policy on mature student the home counties parachuted into South Yorkshire, is entry, an even greater proportion of students will be monocultural, with large areas of comfortable owner- young people in future. Many of them are worryingly occupation and a stable population, and only 4% of disillusioned with democratic politics. The Liberal households have nobody on the register. There is therefore Democrats’ broken pledge on tuition fees—this is not a a huge disparity between the number of people we party point, but none of them is here to listen; it is of actually represent and the number of registered voters. some concern that that great reforming party has chosen not to engage in the debate or to show any interest in On the surface, simply considering electoral registration, enhancing electoral registration—has not simply damaged the constituencies would look much the same size, but if their party; it has damaged trust in politics for a whole we compare the 2011 census figures with the number of generation of young people. voters registered on 2 January, the picture is very different. Sheffield Central has 76,596 registered voters, and Sheffield, Both Sheffield’s great universities are in my constituency, Hallam has 71,559, so my constituency is 5,037 voters with 32,000 of their students living there. They live larger. However, according to the census, Sheffield Central there for at least 31 weeks a year, and many of them for has a population of 115,284, whereas Sheffield, Hallam 52 weeks; it is their main place of residence. They has a population of 89,356, so I represent 25,928 more contribute to the economy and life of the city, and they people. Many of those excluded from the register are have a right to have their voice heard in elections. At the precisely the people who form a huge proportion of my university of Sheffield, there is currently block registration casework—a picture that I am sure is reflected for many of all eligible students in university accommodation, other Members with similar constituencies. but that is threatened by the legislation on individual 219WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 220WH

[Paul Blomfield] Sheffield is a great pioneering city, and we were at the forefront of the Chartist movement, too. If we can voter registration. I assume that the Government do not make the process work, there is no reason why it should think that our universities are guilty of electoral fraud, not work elsewhere in the country. Will the Minister so I question the need to rule out block registration. commit to meeting Universities UK and the National Even if that argument is not accepted, there is a need Union of Students to discuss that proposal and ways to to mitigate that policy’s impact. The former finance maximise student registration? officer of Sheffield university students union made the point about the difficulties of individual voter registration for students very forcefully. He said: 2.53 pm “When students first arrive at University and live in halls, Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I amongst all the other things going on, registering to vote often congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau isn’t a priority and it is comforting to know that it’s often done automatically. If this is changed then it would become another Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing this debate on a topic form to fill in during the whirlwind first few weeks away from that is close to many of our hearts. At present, registering home and some students, particularly those not engaged in democracy to vote is the nearest thing we have to a social contract. will not be registered.” It acknowledges that we live in a democracy. Depending on the figure we choose, however, millions of people are Mr Andrew Smith: I am grateful to my hon. Friend not registered to vote. We may disagree about the figure, for giving way. Like him, I have two universities in my but we all agree who is not registered: people who are constituency, and I strongly underline the points that he disadvantaged, young people, people on low incomes, is making. Does he agree that a further difficulty is that private sector tenants, ethnic minorities and people the nature of much college and institutional accommodation with disabilities. makes it much more difficult to do a person-to-person, door-to-door canvass than in conventional streets? That In the previous Session of Parliament I introduced a will compound the problems that may occur with the private Member’s Bill, which is more relevant than ever, under-registration of students. which was designed to bridge the gap between the excluded group and everyone else. The idea is simple. If Paul Blomfield: I thank my right hon. Friend for that someone wants to connect with the state by getting intervention, and he is absolutely right. In Sheffield, benefits, a pension, a national insurance number or there has been a trend away from houses in multiple even a driving licence, they must be on the electoral occupation, which provided at least an opportunity for register. That is not a big imposition. After all, if some contact during the canvass, to huge student flat someone has to be on the electoral register to get a complexes, in which the security arrangements make it credit card, why not be on it to get a driving licence? impossible to engage by knocking on doors. That Linking access to public services with the electoral exacerbates the problem. register has two purposes. It will increase democratic The difficulty of under-registration is that future participation and, more importantly, it will provide an boundary reviews will be conducted in the first term of explicit link between the democratic process and the each academic year. The students unions of both universities benefits that we enjoy because we live in a democracy. It in my constituency run really vigorous electoral registration is classic rights and responsibilities. If someone does campaigns, and they have some impact, but they are not like living in a democracy, fine. They do not have to held in the run-up to elections—in February, March sign, but they should not expect all the good things as and April—when people are beginning to think about something for nothing. voting. They do not run them in December, when data The electoral register already fulfils certain important will be collected on which future boundary reviews will citizenship functions. It is a way of deciding who does be based. When I am out talking to students in the days jury service. It is possibly the country’s most cost-effective before elections, many of them are still unregistered anti-crime database. The police use it if they want to when they finally decide that they want to cast their catch up with someone. Banks and credit companies votes. Individual voter registration will effectively exclude use it to prevent fraud. Benefits investigators use it to tens of thousands of students—my constituents—from check that people pay council tax and are on the right the electoral roll and therefore from consideration when benefits. More positively, charities use it to help raise boundaries are redrawn. They will be denied a voice funds. Most obviously, of course, it gives people a unless we look at innovative ways to ensure that that chance to vote. It is in everyone’s interests, therefore, for does not happen. the electoral register to be comprehensive. I have spoken to the vice-chancellors of both Sheffield’s We are about to enter an era of individual registration, universities, and they would be happy for the voter or, as I prefer to call it, stopping mums helping their registration process to be incorporated into the student children to vote. When individual registration was registration process. I have discussed that idea with our introduced in Northern Ireland, the register collapsed electoral registration officer, who is keen to work with by 11%, and we have heard in this debate that it might them. That process would involve a couple of simple be down by as much as 29% at the moment. The questions on the student registration form, such as “Do Electoral Commission states that that adversely affected you wish do register to vote?” Alongside that, there disadvantaged groups—young people, the poor and should be an explanatory note on entitlement to vote, people who are in and out of unsecured shorthold because students are often confused about their rights tenancies. Those are just the sorts of people with whom to vote in their city of study and the city in which their we need most to engage to prevent social exclusion and parental home is located. That question would be linked the kind of senseless violence that we are witnessing in to the collection of the student’s national insurance Belfast at the moment. Northern Ireland, as I said number, which would be a requirement of the process. earlier, is a stable community compared with London. 221WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 222WH

In addition to individual registration, there is some 2.59 pm confusion about how compulsory it will be to register to vote. Where registration is optional there is, unsurprisingly, Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Thank you for a drop in who registers, especially among disadvantaged calling me to speak, Mr Owen. I also congratulate my groups. In the US, 40% of people on incomes below hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick $20,000 are not registered, and there are similar rates of Smith) on securing this very important and—as has disengagement among under-25s and people who rent been said before—timely debate. their homes in this country. On top of that, there is I was first switched on to the issue of electoral confusion about councils’ annual canvasses. My council, registration by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries Merton council, stated that only 65% of homes return and Galloway (Mr Brown) some 12 years ago, and I registration forms, but after its canvass, 97% of homes have been passionately campaigning on it ever since; I have registered. think that I have tabled something like 300 parliamentary questions to flush out information on this important There is even more confusion because in 2015, those issue. who do not individually register will be able to vote in the way they are used to if they vote in person, but Progress has been made. I think that the original people who vote by post or proxy will not be allowed to. proposals by the Government—I refer to the Conservative That will cause many problems, especially for older and part of the Government—were meant to use the boundary disabled constituents. That seems unfair, because the review to get the 2015 election, and to use electoral forms they signed promised them a vote indefinitely. I registration to get probably the four or five elections stress that I make that point even though it harms my after that. It has not turned out that way. Some gratitude electoral prospects. At last May’s elections, Labour had must be shown to the Liberals for that, because they a 10% lead in Merton, but the Tories had a 13% lead have seen the light and helped Labour and all other among postal voters, so I want it to be noted that I am believers in democracy in slowing down the whole process. actually arguing here on behalf of the Conservative I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly party. I make those points because I love democracy, (Wayne David) and his boss, my right hon. Friend the not because I seek political advantage. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), on the fantastic way that they have handled this issue in recent years. I According to the Association of Chief Police Officers also congratulate the Civic Society—I include in that and the Electoral Commission, no election result has Operation Black Vote—as well as Unlock Democracy, ever been decided because of over-registration, but we Scope, the Electoral Reform Society and the Electoral need only look to America to find people who believe Commission. I have locked horns with the Electoral that an election can be fixed by systematically removing Commission on a number of occasions, but it has done voters from the register. I was in Ohio last autumn, a good job as far as electoral registration is concerned. canvassing for President Obama, and voter suppression And, as I say, the Government have listened and I want is an increasing tactic of the right. They have seen to give credit for that. their country become more diverse and liberal, and they think that they can sabotage that by taking people off I wish to raise a few issues here today, and one of the register, by going to court to stop early voting, by them concerns funding. I carried out a survey in Wales, placing lawyers at polling stations in poor areas to asking all the electoral registration officers how much intimidate voters as they stand in line or to slow down they spent per elector on registration. Lo and behold, the lines, by insinuating that Latino citizens might not the more they spent on registration, the more people have full voting rights and by making it impossibly there were on the electoral register. The Government difficult for young black men with very minor felonies have offered £108 million to help with all these changes, on their record to vote at all. For the sake of democracy, but that money is not ring-fenced, so I ask the Minister, such voter suppression should not be allowed to first, to ensure that the £108 million that is being given succeed here. to local authorities for registration is spent on registration. Secondly, I ask her for full, careful and non-politicised deliberation on the issues of data matching and data The problem with our electoral register is not that mining, the details of which will be announced shortly. there are too many people on it; it is that there are still Thirdly, I ask that she looks carefully at the level of 3.5 million people who are not. Telling people who want fines for non-registration. The Constitutional Affairs tax credits, a pension or a passport that they have to be Committee recommended a fine of £500 for non- on the electoral register might help. It will make the registration, which might be a bit severe, but at the register even more accurate and ensure that more lower end a fine of £35 has been suggested, which disadvantaged people engage in the democratic process. would be absolutely—well, having such a fine would be It will also, in a small way, begin to tackle the so-called the wrong thing to do. So those are three issues that I “something for nothing” society. Making our social ask her to look at carefully. contract as explicit as that will tackle fraud and reduce social exclusion. More than that, it will ensure that My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden more people have a chance to vote. Being registered to (Siobhain McDonagh) mentioned voter suppression. If vote is a symbol of engagement. It shows that you are the changes had gone through in their original form, we not on the margins, but part of the mainstream. Voting could have said that they were a form of voter suppression. is not only for the elite; it is something we should To have 6 million people—not 3 million, but 6 million—off celebrate for all. That is why, for the sake of democracy, the register, with the Electoral Commission warning I hope that other members will consider supporting my that that figure could go up to 16 million people if the suggestions and making registering to vote more, not original proposals went through, would mean that we less a way of life. would not have a functioning democracy. 223WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 224WH

[Chris Ruane] below. Most MPs realised that their electoral registration officer was not fulfilling their duties, they would be on I also ask the Minister to look at some best practice to them, but nobody knows about these facts and from Wales. The Conservatives are always lambasting figures. So I ask the Minister if she will use her offices to Wales and saying that we have got it wrong; here is an ensure that this vital information is sent out to all MPs. example of where we have got it right. I am holding the I realise that I have a colleague, my hon. Friend the form from Denbighshire county council to all its electors, Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), who and right in the middle there is a threat that if someone wishes to speak, so I will— does not fill in the form they will be fined £1,000. Those who do not fill in the form receive a letter from the chief Albert Owen (in the Chair): I remind Members that executive officer, Dr Mohammed Mehmet, and in the the wind-ups will not start until 3.30pm. last paragraph it says: “In order for me to fulfil my legal duty, I am therefore Chris Ruane: Okay. In that case, Chair, I shall go on requesting that you complete the enclosed information sheet and even a little bit longer. [Laughter.] return it to me promptly in the envelope provided. If you fail to supply the information requested within 14 days, I will have no Some of the issues pertaining to Northern Ireland option but to pass the matter to the council’s legal department.” have been mentioned by a number of Members— As a result of that, in the poorest ward in Wales—the West ward of Rhyl—registration went up by 34%. That Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? has been achieved in Wales, so I will leave a copy of the form for the Minister to look at. Chris Ruane: I will give way on that issue, because I know that my hon. Friend is from Northern Ireland. May I ask the Chair what time wind-ups will start? Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman has made that Albert Owen (in the Chair): Carry on. point about Northern Ireland. Just for the record, Mr Owen, I want to say that many people are not registered Chris Ruane: All right—I will carry on then. [Laughter.] and those who vote perhaps give an indication in the wrong ballot box—that is my opinion, of course. However, Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. There is another after the disgraceful decision to remove the Union flag speaker, but carry on. from Belfast city hall, the number of people who registered to make a decision and make a change went up greatly. Chris Ruane: I have been instructed to carry on by the Of course, by that stage it was too late. So, if people Chair. want to make a change, vote early. There are a few issues in the excellent document by the Electoral Commission, “Managing electoral registration Chris Ruane: Hopefully early, but not often. [Laughter.] in Great Britain”, which was published in June 2012. It I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. gives some performance indicators. However, one of the In the case of Northern Ireland, when the changes worrying performance indicators is: were introduced in 2006—I admit that they were introduced “Performance standard 3: House-to-house enquiries.” by a Labour Administration, and that the requirement “House-to-house enquiries” involves sending canvassers to have that annual canvass and get out there “on the round, from house to house, to find non-responders. In knocker” was not in place and there was continual 2008, 16% of electoral registration officers did not registration—registration rates went down in the five or perform that role; in 2009, that went down to 5%; in six years afterwards, to 71%, meaning that 29% of 2010, there were only 2% of officers not carrying out people were not registered. If the analysis is made, we this essential function to get the registration up; and will find out that those people, in the main, will be in 2011, the figure increased by 800%, to go back up people who live in council houses, or tenants of social to 16%. landlords, unemployed people or low-paid people, and quite often they will be black or minority ethnic. So Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This is obviously a quite often these are the people on the margins of very important issue when it comes to voter disengagement. society, and as I say there are currently 6 million of Does the hon. Gentleman feel that there is also perhaps them missing from across the UK and the figure for a role for political parties? When it comes to MPs doing Northern Ireland is proportionally higher than for anywhere their constituency work, and interacting with their else in the UK. So we need to learn the lessons from constituents, perhaps whenever that work has been Northern Ireland if we are rolling out this Bill. done the MP can say, “Are you on the electoral list and It has been claimed by the Electoral Commission, if you’re not, perhaps you can register?” and I think by the leader of the Liberal Democrats as well, that these changes will be the biggest changes since Chris Ruane: Absolutely. It is incumbent upon us all the introduction of universal suffrage. If they are that as MPs to do that—no vote, no voice. That issue needs big, we need consensus, and if there is not consensus I to be considered as well. can promise the Government this—if Labour gets in at May I respectfully ask that the statistics that I have the next election, there will be a massive push from given are sent to every MP, every Assembly Member, Back Benchers and Ministers to undo what has been every Member of the Scottish Parliament and every done. Member of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland, Labour did not politicise the issue of electoral registration as well as to every councillor across the land, so that we for the 13 years that it was in government. I wish that it get some pressure from below? As well as Governments had. I was taking the message back to Government passing laws from above, we will get some pressure from Ministers—Labour Government Ministers—and saying, 225WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 226WH

“This is a big issue. We have 3.5 million people unregistered.” Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. Before I call Sheila We could have politicised that issue. If those 3.5 million Gilmore, I remind Members that I will call the Front-Bench people ever voted, they would have been our voters. spokesman at 3.30 pm, and no other Members have And in fact it was not 3.5 million people; it was 6 million indicated that they wish to speak. people. If those 6 million people are added to the register, there would be no need for the equalisation of 3.12 pm parliamentary seats, because the vast majority of those 6 million people would be in Labour seats. So this issue Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure of registration has massive implications and I urge the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I thank Minister, and her team and the Prime Minister, to listen my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick carefully and not to go about this process in a party Smith) for securing the debate. political way but in a fair, balanced and consensual way. We assume that the Electoral Registration and When Labour came to power in 1997, after we had Administration Bill will complete all its stages at some been out of power for 18 years, the first thing we did point and that individual voter registration will go was to give away power. We did that by introducing ahead. The Bill will come into force in a period when proportional representation for European elections. In quite a lot of important things are going on electorally. Wales, we went from four Labour MEPs to one. That In Scotland, the process will take place at much the was not in our party political interest. We had a majority same time as the referendum, which raises considerable of 180 Members of Parliament, and we could have issues for electoral registration officers, who will have to established the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish manage the processes simultaneously. For the purposes Parliament and the Welsh Assembly without PR, but of the referendum, there is a proposal—what happens we did not. We could have dominated those institutions, will depend on the view taken by the Scottish Parliament certainly in Wales and Scotland, but we did not— later this year—to enfranchise 16 and 17-year-olds. If we did things in a balanced way. Again, that worked that happens—the Scottish Government have certainly against us. indicated their intention to do it—it will raise procedural questions about how these things are done. Electoral What did we do with quangos? They were stuffed registration officers in my city, for example, could therefore with Tories. The quango king of the country lived in my be dealing with a large number of issues at the same constituency. He was on £86,000 a year in 1996—more time as individual electoral registration. than the Prime Minister. What did Labour do? There Like many Members, I think it is important that we was no more of that. We took out big, full-page adverts, put in the effort. The canvass is important. It does not usually in The Daily Telegraph, asking for good, decent necessarily have to be hugely more expensive, although people. We said that things would be non-party political. equally we should not take money away from electoral We gave away power in local government in Scotland. registration officers. We need to know where the effort Everything was balanced. needs to be put in, and if electoral registration officers do not know, they need only ask political parties, which Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. I am sure hon. can certainly tell them, because the differences in electoral Members want to get back to electoral registration. registration in different parts of our constituencies can be extremely stark. We can almost predict where the low Chris Ruane: In conclusion, I ask the Minister and registration will be before we go into certain streets and her team to look at this issue in a non-party political start looking at the electoral register to discover just way. how many households are missing from it. Armed with that knowledge, we could concentrate on areas where Siobhain McDonagh: I know how important my hon. we already know there is a shortfall. Things will only Friend thinks the canvass is for electoral registration. get worse—there is no doubt about that—so we need to Does he share my concern that the Electoral Registration concentrate on certain places. and Administration Bill suggests that a Minister can We may need to think laterally about making it easier abolish the canvass? Does he also share my concern that for people to register. For example, I was out knocking the canvass will consist of knocking on a door and on doors at the weekend and the Member with me exhorting people to fill in the form? If they have refused pointed out that several of the apparently unregistered to fill in two previous forms, why would they fill in the houses belonged to council tenants. How did we know third? At the moment, the canvasser stands there with that? We knew what kind of new doors the council had a member of the household and completes the form recently put on those houses, and we took a bit of guess, with them. albeit it was a fairly safe deduction. Those people had probably moved into those properties relatively recently. Chris Ruane: That is an eminently sensible point, New tenants go through various processes with the which I support. council: they sign tenancy agreements and some, but In conclusion, partisanship should not be shown on not all, apply for housing benefit. That is an ideal this issue. The Minister should look at the lessons from opportunity to register people at the same time. People Northern Ireland and from the data matching and data have to do a lot of things—they sign up for the electricity mining. She should also look carefully at the level of and other things—so why not make electoral registration fines and at best practice from around the UK, including part of the process, so that they can automatically my constituency. If she does all those things, she will be register as they take up their new tenancy? supported by both sides of the House and all parts of Often, it is those very people who come to our the country. surgeries—they are certainly coming to my surgeries at the moment—and say things like, “I’ve just had this Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rose— letter saying I’ll have to pay something towards my rent 227WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 228WH

[Sheila Gilmore] mobile population that it is probably a major factor in reducing levels of electoral registration. How can we from April. I’ve never heard anything about this. I don’t make contact with people when they move in? Can we know anything about this.” They see these things as find ways whereby electoral registration officers do not politics, but politics is, of course, about things that sit somewhere, isolated, but work with letting agents, happen to them. Once people realise that, they begin to perhaps, to make the forms available? be get a bit more interested, but no doubt some of the people who come to see us and are very angry are not Jim Shannon: One of the problems with the Northern registered. We therefore need to think about making Ireland process was that the data-processing system was electoral registration as straightforward as possible. not working correctly, so the information was not all collated. One of the reasons for that was the funding. We could go into schools to register young people; Wherever a data matching process is set up, bringing all that is not at all unreasonable, because once people are the different bodies, benefits and rent allocations together, registered, the forms will continue in future years. I do it should show where the person is, but it does not not see why it is not possible—this was raised previously—to always work that way unless there is funding to ensure allow people to register quite late in the election run-up. that that the data matching process takes place. That is When there is an election, people’s minds turn to a lesson that has been learned in Northern Ireland. The registration. With modern technology and the ability to system has not worked. It must work better. deal with late registration, we could perhaps let people register virtually up to the election, as happens in parts Sheila Gilmore: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that of the United States. If we do that, people who become comment and insight into problems that have arisen. interested and who see that the election matters will not There are dangers in relying on a technological answer. find themselves unable to vote. I have known people As we found with some of the data matching pilots, turn up at a polling station only to discover to their different organisations record things very differently, horror that they are unable to vote. At times, they get although perhaps that should not happen; the technology very angry about that, because they have been fired up does not always work; addresses are not always referred by what they have heard. to in the same way. Such small differences mean that One thing that is slightly worrying to somebody who although the technology should make it possible to sat through the debates on the Bill and who is a member identify where a person is, even if they were not previously of the Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform on the register, that may not happen. A small difference is that we are now hearing that the situation in Northern in the description of the address is enough for the Ireland is not as rosy as we were led to believe. The technology to let people down. Select Committee looked at the issue and took evidence There is nothing better than the individual approach, on it. We were aware that there had been a fall-off in and we should not rely on technology to perform that registration initially, but we were given repeated assurances, task. Technology has a place, and if it makes certain first, that it was a temporary phenomenon that had things easier, all well and good. It may provide a base to been overcome and, secondly, that the rest of the UK start from, but it is wrong to assume that it will somehow would learn from the process and not make the same get us out of the problem. Getting out to people where mistakes. Now, however, we hear that it might not be they are—for example, by having an electoral registration such a temporary phenomenon. That may be because officer sitting in a supermarket with a stall and forms to there was concern at the outset, so extra effort was catch people while they are there—is not a bad idea. made to improve the position, but that declined again There are all sorts of ways to engage better with people. when the foot was taken off the pedal, which clearly I hope that that will be taken seriously, that electoral shows that we have to keep putting in the effort. That is registration officers will be given the resources and a matter of some concern because of the assurances we information they need, and that good practice will be were given. Those of us who raised concerns about the shared so that that can happen. Otherwise things will Northern Ireland situation were told that we really had get worse. It is deeply depressing to go to what I nothing to worry about, that it had been resolved and suppose in my constituency is a typical tenement building that things were moving forward much more successfully. and to find that of perhaps eight or 10 residences, That is not the case. barely half are registered, even under the present system. In the lead up to the changes, the Government need It is not good enough. to look carefully at improving registration levels, which clearly are not good enough in some places. That would 3.24 pm be necessary even without individual voter registration. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): This afternoon’s That may require electoral registration officers to work debate has been excellent, and I warmly congratulate far more closely with their fellow local government my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick employees, laterally in relation to council housing, but Smith) on securing it and on his first-rate contribution. there is also housing association housing. They might He set out clearly many of the issues. It is a timely even work with some private landlords to see whether a debate, because, as a couple of hon. Members have link can be made, because that group of tenants is mentioned, the Electoral Registration and Administration probably the most mobile and they are the ones falling Bill is now back on course after being mysteriously through the hole. delayed by the Government in the other place. It is back Once we have all the household figures from the most on track and we look forward to its return to the recent census, which have not been published yet, we Commons. will clearly see what we know anecdotally from our own Several hon. Members have made good points. We areas, which is how much more private renting there is heard about the situation in the United States of America now than there was even 10 years ago. That is such a where unfortunately voter suppression is all too often a 229WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 230WH political tactic of the right. I am sure that we all deplore the Bill also states that the Minister must have the that. Some hon. Members mentioned the need to focus approval of both Houses and that the Electoral Commission on groups that are under-represented on the register: must prepare a report. I welcome that, but I would like black people, young people, disabled people and those a cast-iron commitment that the Government, in learning who are very mobile. We need to make a special effort to from the experience of Northern Ireland, have no intention ensure that our electoral register is as complete as whatsoever of scrapping the annual canvass. possible. Siobhain McDonagh: Will my hon. Friend ask the We have also heard about the Government’s change Minister not only not to scrap the canvass but to ensure of heart when the Bill was passing through the Commons that canvassers can still help individuals on the doorstep about whether a penalty should be imposed for an to complete their forms? individual’s non-compliance in the process of registration. We welcome that, but we of course pressed the Government Wayne David: That is an important point, because it in Committee on how that would be administered and is entirely complementary to the broader point about how much the fine would be. At that time, they maintaining the annual canvass. An annual canvass is understandably said they had not reached a final decision, successful because it is about face-to-face contact; it is but they have now had months to consider, and I about electoral registration officers having a relationship wonder whether the Minister will say precisely how with people and providing information about how they much the fine for individual non-compliance will be. individually can complete their forms. The two points We also heard, importantly, about Scotland and were go well together. I would therefore like a cast-iron reminded that there will be a referendum in 2014 on commitment from the Government that they have no Scotland’s continued membership of the Union. That intention whatsoever of putting a question mark over will of course coincide with preparations for individual the future of the annual canvass. electoral registration. Uniquely in that election, but I That leads on to my second point, which is about the hope not as a one-off—I would like the principle to be role of electoral registration officers. The ERA Bill extended—young people of 16 and 17 will be given the proposes in sub-paragraph 6(2) of schedule 4 that the vote for the first time. That will inevitably, I think, put words “so far as is reasonably practicable” are introduced great pressure on the electoral registration process north in relation to the role of electoral registration officers. I of the border. do not think that that the provision was modified in the As my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent Lords. Some people have suggested that that weakens said, the debate is about the nature of our democracy the role of EROs and means that they cannot do their and democratic participation. The electoral register is job as effectively, and although that is not necessarily the lynchpin of our democratic process, and we all want the case, it introduces the potential to further allow it to be as accurate as possible. No one condones the EROs to limit the scope of their intervention. The examples of fraud that have taken place, but we must important flexibility that currently exists is in danger of not exaggerate the amount. Just as importantly, we being weakened, and I would like reassurance from the want the electoral register to be as complete as possible. Minister regarding EROs’ essential role in ensuring that We all want as many people as possible to have the individual electoral registration is implemented fairly chance, in a modern, thriving, healthy democracy, to and effectively. exercise their democratic right. Following on logically from that, I think that we all I want to put some specific questions. First, on Northern realise that, for electoral registration officers to be effective, Ireland, many of us were led to believe, as was mentioned they must have the necessary resources to do their job in the debate, that the situation there was a good properly. The Bill’s explanatory notes state: example to follow. We all recognise that the situation “A total of £108m was allocated at the Spending Review in there is different from Great Britain’s, but nevertheless 2010 to meet the cost of implementing Individual Electoral individual electoral registration was introduced there. Registration. This includes £85m resource funding in 2014/15 to We were told initially that there was a fall-off in the fund registration officers to make contact with each potential elector individually and invite them to register in 2014”. number of people on the register, but that that had improved. However, we now understand from the Electoral There has also been reference to an extra £13 million Commission that there is a marked reduction in the per year being provided. number. The commission’s report gives a number of Chris Ruane: I take my hon. Friend back to the reasons, but clearly one is to do with the decision taken statistics for house-to-house contact given by the Electoral in 2005 to discontinue the annual canvass in Northern Commission in its document, “Managing electoral Ireland. That appears to have had a significant impact registration in Great Britain”. If the Government have on the chief electoral officer’s ability to track population supplied £108 million, there should be no excuse for movement. that contact—knocking on people’s doors—to go down Members have referred to the fact that people are massively. What does my hon. Friend think is the reason increasingly mobile these days, and that is particularly for that? It happened under the Tory watch. an issue in our inner-city areas, including here in London. A key lesson that must be learnt from the Northern Wayne David: We must be mindful of the tremendous Ireland experience is the importance of retaining the pressure on local government at the moment. Although annual canvass. We have discussed this issue at some moneys might be nominally provided for electoral length in the House, and Members have expressed concern registration, I would like the resources to be ring-fenced, about the Government’s possibly not continuing with to ensure that they are used for the process for which the annual canvass. Although clause 7 of the Electoral they are stipulated. We are not blaming local authorities Registration and Administration Bill provides Ministers —we can all understand the tremendous pressure that with the power to amend or abolish the annual canvass, they are under in a cuts climate and that education and 231WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 232WH

[Wayne David] 3.39 pm The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe social services and so on require resources—but if money Smith): I thank the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent is not ring-fenced, it is all too easy for it to be surreptitiously (Nick Smith) for providing us with a helpful and interesting shifted from one budget to another. That is why it is debate. I will attempt to answer the various questions very important that the Government commit to introducing that have been raised, and I hope that I will entertain ring-fencing. the Chamber for the remaining 21 minutes. On the point of sheer entertainment, I will mention Jessica Morden: Does my hon. Friend agree that, if my constituency, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned his. fines should come in, the money from them also should The Chartists enjoyed their moment in Norwich, too. I be ring-fenced for electoral registration purposes? live round the corner from Mousehold heath, the scene of a great point in the history of democratic and Wayne David: I understand my hon. Friend’s sentiment, somewhat rebellious engagement, which is a fine thing but I do not think that it is quite that easy. A wrong to mention in this debate. impression might be given—a bit like with speeding On a perhaps drier topic, encouraging individual fines—with electors under the impression that local registration is vital, and I reassure the Chamber that the authorities were deliberately fining people to ensure an Government do not lack ambition on that note. It is the extra source of income. role of the Government, politicians, political parties, electoral administrators and plenty of others to encourage Jessica Morden: Just to clarify, I meant that if fines people to register to vote. The Government are committed were introduced and the money went somewhere central, to doing all we can to maximise registration levels, and the Government should somehow consider how the to consider ways to modernise the system to make it as money could be ring-fenced for electoral registration easy and convenient as possible to register to vote. purposes. I appreciate that if the money went to a local The Electoral Registration and Administration Bill, council there could be a perverse incentive not to register which is currently passing through Parliament and provided people to charge more fines. us all with a few moments of excitement last night, with perhaps a few raised heart rates here and there, will go Wayne David: That is a sound sentiment, and I would some way towards changing the electoral registration welcome the Minister’s response. We certainly all recognise process for the better by introducing individual electoral that adequate resources must be provided if the system registration. The Bill will create a legislative framework is to work. Money, from wherever it comes, is to be to allow alternative channels for registration, such as welcomed, and we need as much of a focus as possible online registration, which I am pleased to confirm will on this issue. be available from July 2014. The Bill will also provide I understand that the Government, according to their for the use of data matching to verify applications, to implementation plan, were to come forward with a confirm existing entries on registers during the transition funding mechanism for local authorities by last December, to IER and to find individuals who do not currently and I also understand that that has happened. Have the appear on the register. We have already carried out pilot Government gone a step further, however, and not schemes. simply talked about a funding mechanism but begun to consider how much local authorities will have and Siobhain McDonagh: Does the Minister agree that whether there will be differential allocation according the findings of the data matching processes so far to the amount of work that is necessary in each area? I indicate that the electoral register is the most accurate refer back to a point made earlier about under-represented record in existence? The electoral register is more accurate groups. The Government, through the Cabinet Office, than the records of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing have been doing good work in liaising with various Agency, the Department for Work and Pensions and groups that work with under-represented elements in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, perhaps because society, but there is a need for extra targeted resources, it is compiled by people who live in a particular area to ensure that we get under-represented groups fully and who go door to door. registered. Miss Smith: In some ways, the hon. Lady is right. The Finally on funding, I want to ask about the situation electoral register, by its nature, is a repository of solid in Wales. I understand that last year there were ongoing information, but it is important that we put to work discussions with the Welsh Government about a sum other data sets held by different levels of government to possibly being devolved for them to carry out their maximise numbers. We all want the numbers to be work in relation to local authorities in Wales. Can the maximised, and we must find the best ways to do so. We Minister enlighten us on whether the discussions have are carrying out various schemes to test the usefulness concluded and what sum has been allocated for individual of matching electoral registers against several public registration in Wales? authority data sets. A further set of pilots will commence This is important legislation, and it is commendable shortly, some of which will address students and recent that so many Members—Labour Members, at least—have home moves. attended the debate. I am slightly concerned that more Government Members are not here, but I hope that Chris Ruane: Will the Minister explain why the date now that the Bill is once again making progress, thanks for introducing IER, which was agreed with all-party to last night’s definitive decision in the other place, our consensus under the previous Labour Government, was constructive dialogue will continue when the Bill returns moved forward one year from 2015 to 2014? Why was to this House. that consensus broken? 233WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 234WH

Miss Smith: I thank the hon. Gentleman, in general Miss Smith: I thank the hon. Lady for that reminder terms, for his flashes of bipartisanship both in this of what a Minister is and is not capable of doing. I debate and, occasionally, in the main Chamber, but I repeat that I will be watching all these matters like a regret that some of his, dare I say, time-filling appeared hawk. Some are within our direct control, some are for to descend into slightly more partisan commentary. I the Electoral Commission and some are for Parliament will be similarly partisan in response: the version introduced as we complete the process. I reassure her that I am by Labour cost more than our version to the tune of deeply interested in ensuring that we maximise registration some £100 million, and I think it is worth comparing levels in all corners. schemes on that basis. The previous scheme would have The current plans for registration include the annual caused confusion because, effectively, it sought to run a canvass, and I fully assure the hon. Member for Blaenau voluntary version of individual registration alongside Gwent that it will continue to be used for as long as it another process. I believe that the version before us is remains the best way to ensure that the register is as somewhat cleaner. complete as possible. If data matching is used, and we hope that we might now be able to match well over two Chris Ruane: I thank the Minister for giving way a thirds of voters by using that method, a whole new second time. Why, specifically, was the date moved from world of possibilities is opened up as to how we might, 2015 to 2014? Was it to gain party political advantage on an annual basis, register the right people. I do not for the general election and because the Government think a situation in which the annual canvass is less foresaw the deadline for the next review of parliamentary effective than new methods is beyond our lifetimes. I do boundaries in December 2015? not suggest that I know what those methods might be—I deliberately take a long view in posing this scenario— but it is possible to use the legislation ahead of time to Miss Smith: In short, no. introduce a power to give an instruction not to use an Other hon. Members have asked various questions annual canvass if other methods have become more about data matching, which I must address so that I effective. I repeat that we are all interested in effective answer everyone in time. In particular, the hon. Member methods. I am not interested in ineffective ones. However, for Blaenau Gwent asked about the use of credit reference Members will have heard the fuller debate on that issue agencies, which is a point that he has raised capably in the Chamber earlier this year when it came before many times. We considered the possibility of a pilot the Commons. I reassure them once again that all the using credit reference agency data, but I am advised safeguards will remain in place before any such abolition that running such a scheme within the existing legislation will be considered. would be difficult. As I said in my answer to the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), Wayne David: I welcome what the Minister says up to I am interested in finding as many useful sources of a point, but rather than hypothetical future scenarios, data as possible, and I shall continue to look for them. I we are looking for proof that the Government are have no doubt that the hon. Member for Blaenau learning the lesson from Northern Ireland, as the Electoral Gwent and I will continue that debate as we continue Commission said, and recognising the centrality of our research, but I am aware of a number of shortcomings annual canvasses. What might happen in future is a in using data from credit reference agencies. matter for another time; we want a categorical affirmation There will be a move to digital applications from the that the lessons from Northern Ireland have been learned current paper application form, which will make registration and that an annual canvass is here. more convenient for a number of people. The move will increase accessibility for many people with disabilities. I Miss Smith: It is important that I go on to Northern will be talking to the Electoral Commission later this Ireland before we run out of time. We are absolutely week, and I am happy to raise the points raised by the clear that we will be learning and have learned the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden on the accessibility lessons from Northern Ireland, and we have looked of the forms. We will be actively encouraging applicants carefully into the Electoral Commission’s report. We to use the online system, which we intend to be the are taking steps to prevent a fall in registration levels primary channel for applications. It is important, however, upon the introduction of individual electoral registration that we retain the option of a paper form to cater for by retaining the annual canvass—as I said, we have no anyone who is not ready for the move. plans to abolish it in Great Britain—by moving the 2013 canvass to early 2014 to allow a more accurate and I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s point on absent voters. up-to-date register to be used at the beginning of the She generously explained how important that group is transition to IER, and testing and evaluating the benefits in her constituency, and often, those in that group are of data matching, about which I spoke briefly, by older voters, whom we will consider carefully. I certainly confirming eligible electors through the data match would not wish to see any such group disadvantaged, process. That confirmation will give us a substantial and I will watch that carefully. baseline level of completeness throughout the transition to individual registration. All those things are vital. We Sheila Gilmore: The Minister suggests that she wishes have always recognised that the transition to individual to watch the process carefully, but of course the Government registration poses a risk to completeness rates, so we are have the power to change their mind about the proposal putting in place those safeguards. that people with postal votes should not be automatically rolled over. There is still time to do that before the new Chris Ruane: Registration rates in Northern Ireland process comes into play. Rather than simply reacting to are down to 71% and could go lower. At what percentage— a problem after the event, perhaps the Minister might 60% or 55%, for example—does the Minister believe consider a change of mind. that we will stop having a properly functioning democracy? 235WH Electoral Registration15 JANUARY 2013 Electoral Registration 236WH

Miss Smith: I do not intend to answer that with a seeking to work with a range of organisations to engage number, but as I have said many times and will say once individuals and communities from all sections of society more, we are all interested in the maximum level of in the political process. I am afraid that I cannot avoid registration in this country. using a minute to respond to some of the more partisan points made by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd Mr Andrew Smith: Will the Minister respond to the (Chris Ruane). Nobody owns voters, places or cities. We very good point made by my hon. Friend the Member all go out and work for them. I am sure that he joins me for Mitcham and Morden about the crucial difference in that sentiment, and I look forward to working with that can be made by the ability of the canvasser on the him in his more bipartisan moments. doorstep to help people complete the form? Will she We know that registration levels are disproportionately reconsider it and commit to moving in that direction? low in some groups; I think that everybody has made that point in this debate. To help us understand current Miss Smith: I will. I am grateful that the right hon. levels of electoral registration, we have carried out a Gentleman asks, as it reminds me to ensure that I detailed programme of research, including funding an answer the hon. Lady’s question. I do not believe that Electoral Commission study on the completeness and there is anything to prevent canvassers from helping on accuracy of the register, an independent academic review the doorstep. I am happy to come back on that in of all available research and further studies into exploring further detail, as I see that we are running out of time. the barriers to registration for groups missing from the On the civil penalty for failing to make an application register under the current system. to register when requested to do so by a certain date, the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent asked me for a figure. I said that I would mention some places on which the It is currently subject to keen stakeholder engagement, data mining pilots are particularly focused. As I think and I look forward to being able to update the House in hon. Members know, they are to be focused on attainers, due course. In passing, I note under that heading that students and recent home movers, among others. I have the civil penalty is about deterrence, not making money. no concerns about being approached by Universities The sum will fall to zero once the individual registers. UK or the National Union of Students, although I note There is no interest in turning it into a money pot; that that those groups met my predecessor at a more urgent is simply not what it is for. I reassure the Chamber that stage of the Bill. However, I am happy to have further through the safeguards that I have described, we want a such discussions with them. On the points made about situation in which we have confirmed the majority of student voters, I note that only 13% of halls of residence existing electors and automatically retained them in the currently use block registration. That is instructive, as it register, which will allow us to ensure that the register is suggests that there are alternative methods. It is vital to at least as complete as it is now while improving its treat young people as adults who can and ought to accuracy during the transition to individual registration. register in their own right and under their own responsibility. It is important that I discuss some other measures in On other ways that we are working with groups in the time available. The IER system must be flexible broader society, the Northern Ireland experience is enough to respond to changes in society. Beyond the helping us plan activities. We are working with Bite the transition, we will assess the most appropriate channels Ballot and Operation Black Vote to increase understanding for applications. We want it to be digital by default, and of the importance of voting and the process of registering we want an IT service to underpin the process for to vote; I have done such events in Norwich, and I think validating all applications, in whatever format they are it is important to do so. made. We are continuing all those efforts to drive up registration The Government are, of course, committed to funding rates as we move towards IER. To do so, we need the transition to individual registration, as has been partnerships with a range of organisations in the private, noted throughout this debate. We will fund local authorities state, voluntary and community sectors. As I said, I in England and Wales directly through grants made welcome and appreciate all the good points made in this under section 31 of the Local Government Act 2003, debate. I shall be speaking to the Electoral Commission allocated for the purposes of paying for the transition. later this week, as I do regularly as part of this work, Local authorities will receive a non-ring-fenced specific and I shall impress on it as part of its responsibilities to grant to pay for the move to IER. It will not be included communicate about registration to the broader public—hon. in the formula grant. Appropriate safeguards already Members will know that that is one responsibility of the exist in the legal duties, which will be seen by the House EC—the good points made in this debate. in secondary legislation, and those duties rest on electoral In conclusion, the Government are fully committed registration officers. Local authorities will clearly be to doing what we can to increase voter registration obliged to fund a number of business-critical activities, levels. There is no silver bullet solution. I do not think and that is in compliance with their statutory duty to that increasing democratic engagement is the Government’s pay EROs’ properly incurred expenses. I am happy to responsibility. To borrow words from the Scripts’ recent deal with that matter more in correspondence if Members song “Hall of Fame”, I think it is a question for wish. students, teachers, politicians and preachers. It is also a Encouraging democratic participation is vital, and I question for parliamentarians, parents, carers, role models hope that hon. Members have noted my commitment to and officials from political parties. We must provide it in the flavour of my comments in this debate. We are people with compelling reasons to vote. 237WH 15 JANUARY 2013 Post-16 High Needs Provision 238WH (Warrington) Post-16 High Needs Provision get a place in the appropriate facility should not depend (Warrington) on the borough they happen to live in. I do not believe that that is either the Minister or the Government’s intention, but that is the consequence we are facing. 4pm I can find no logic in the figures for Warrington. The Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): As always, it special educational needs block grant of EFA funding is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, is 35% nationally, whereas in Warrington it is 25%, yet Mr Owen, but this is a debate I would prefer not to the proportion of people with special needs in have; I would prefer that it was not necessary. However, Warrington—0.5%—is close to the national average of some of the Government’s decisions on funding for 0.53%. There is no logic to the figures. post-16 high needs provision may damage some of the most vulnerable young people in Warrington—young The EFA has sought to focus attention—wrongly, I people whose disabilities are profound and whose care believe—on the increase in the numbers of young people needs are extensive. We have a duty to ensure that they placed with independent specialist providers in Warrington. are provided with the best we can give them. Yet when Interestingly, the EFA took 2009-10 as its start point, Warrington received its allocation in late December, it which is completely different from the one it uses to found itself plunged into a crisis because the amount of assess funding. True, only six young people were placed money allocated to it for the provision was far less than with ISPs that year, but there were 12 in 2010 and there the amount needed for the number of places it required. are 19 now. The EFA is funding them, so presumably it I believe that that is not what the Government intended. agrees that that provision is appropriate for their needs. Warrington does not spend a much larger percentage of When the Secretary of State for Education announced its budget on ISPs than is spent nationally—it spends changes to the funding system last March in a written 41% as opposed to 39% nationally. The Minister will ministerial statement, he said: know very well that, on the sort of numbers we are “Improvements to funding for high needs provision will mean dealing with, the difference between those percentages it can be more responsive and will enable greater choice for is statistically insignificant and can be accounted for by children, young people and their parents.”—[Official Report, 26 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 89WS.] one young person with vey high needs. The Government’s own impact assessment said that the Nor is it the case that Warrington has not sought to changes should improve its special needs provision. The local authority “improve accessibility of such provision to disabled pupils and is seeking to build a special needs campus on the site of students and should impact positively on equality of opportunity the former Woolston high school, with provision included for this group.” for post-16 young people. However, the Government However, we cannot have choice if there are not enough have delayed that by threatening to take the building places. We cannot have equality of opportunity if no away to give to a free school. They cannot have it both funding is available. That is the position that young ways; they cannot say, “You must place fewer people people in my local authority may find themselves in outside the borough,” if at the same time they are next year, because when the responsibility to commission delaying provision inside the borough. post-16 high needs provision moves from the Education Everyone has agreed that the figures on the number Funding Agency to the local authority, the amount of of places the authority will need next year are robust. money that transfers over will be less than what the Officials from the Department have been through them authority is spending now and will certainly not be with local council officials, and there is no dispute enough to meet the number of places required next about them. I have asked the authority to provide me year. with some examples of the sort of young people we are Part of the problem is that the funding is based on talking about. It gave me an example of a young man the number of places needed in 2010-11—that is a who is severely learning disabled, has communication three-year time lag. It is different from the way we fund and behavioural difficulties and is a wheelchair user. He other post-16 provision, which is based on the previous needs one-to-one support throughout the day and access year’s figures. I would be grateful if the Minister explained to physiotherapy, occupational therapy and a hydrotherapy why it is different and why young people with such pool. He is placed in independent specialist provision at special needs should be disadvantaged in this way. the moment, but the Minister will know very well that Warrington’s funding will be based on a year when it for young people with such a high degree of need, it is required 88 places, but it already requires 151, and next often impossible to cater for them in-borough, because year it will require 186. Even with the uplift given to the the numbers are so low that the facilities required 2010 figures, Warrington estimates that it will have cannot be built. The authority also gave me the example enough funding for only 109 places—£1.5 million—whereas of a young person who has a place locally. He has the amount it estimates will be needed is £3.9 million. epilepsy, autism and communication difficulties, and he I commend officers and the portfolio holder for children too needs one-to-one provision throughout the day. and young people, Councillor Colin Froggatt, on the Those are the kind of young people who deserve the work they have done. They have said that they fear best we have to offer. being able to fund only what are called elements 1 and 2 A local authority cannot control the numbers needing for special needs provision, which is course fees plus that type of provision, nor can it magic them away. It £6,000; they do not believe that they will have money must deal with the young people as they are. If we do for any top-ups at all. That will leave disabled young not provide for their needs, we let down not only them, people in Warrington at a disadvantage compared with but their families, who invest an enormous amount of those in boroughs that can afford to pay top-ups to time, effort and emotional energy in caring for them. providers. I do not believe that we should fund special The least we can offer them in support is the right care needs provision in such a way. Whether someone can and education for their children. 239WH Post-16 High Needs Provision 15 JANUARY 2013 Post-16 High Needs Provision 240WH (Warrington) (Warrington) [Helen Jones] 4.14 pm The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a What, then, is the authority to do? It has been suggested pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I to it that it should take some of the money allocated to congratulate the hon. Member for Warrington North under-16 SEN provision, but the Minister knows as (Helen Jones) on securing the debate, which is important well as I do that that budget is already stretched to its for her constituents. It is, in particular, important for a limit. He will have seen people in his surgery, as I have, group of vulnerable young people, whose case she is who cannot get provision for their children of school right to raise today. I am grateful for the opportunity to age. Even if the authority can do that, there will still be address her points and to explain the reason for our a gap of approximately £700,000. Where is that money funding reforms. I will then talk more about the specific to come from? situation in her constituency and council area. I assure The council was told by officials that it could take the her that we are taking care to help local authorities and money from elsewhere in its budget. Frankly, those providers prepare for the changes that will happen later officials are living in cloud cuckoo land. Warrington this year. We want to ensure that they are given the has already faced cuts of £50 a head in spending power. flexibility to use the funds that we will make available It has had to take £32 million out of its budget, and through their dedicated schools grant allocation in a according to the Government’s own figures—the way that best meets the needs of the children and young Government may have to revise those figures, because I people they are responsible for. know a number of authorities double-counted some I offer some reassurance that we take the concerns things—as a result of this year’s settlement it will have that have been expressed by local authorities, including to reduce its spending by 5.5%, or about £12 million. As Warrington borough council, seriously. Officials in the in all authorities, adult social services, which might have Education Funding Agency and other parts of the been expected to provide some of the extra funding, are Department for Education have been working closely under huge pressure because people are living longer with local authorities for several months to help them and requiring more support. It is unreasonable to argue understand the reforms and the necessary adjustments that we should take money from other vulnerable groups to funding, and that process is ongoing. We have relied to fund those in our community with the most pressing heavily on the information that authorities and providers need, whether they are children with special needs at have given and used that to inform the distribution of school or vulnerable adults. funds. Where there have been discrepancies or anomalies, The authority finds itself in an impossibly difficult we have tried to be even-handed in our approach so as situation. Seventy-seven young people could be left to get as fair a distribution of funding as possible. without funding for their places next year. No guidance Before I go into the detail of the process and of the is coming from the EFA on which young people should particular local issues that have been raised by the hon. be allocated places. The authority’s hands are tied, Lady, it might be helpful if I explain the rationale for because the guidance states that it should honour existing the funding changes, which could lead to the consequences commitments and, to paraphrase, should not seek to to which she referred. We have a disjointed funding renegotiate existing contracts, except in exceptional system, with different arrangements for the funding of circumstances. Apparently, exceptional circumstances children and young people, depending on whether they do not include not having enough money. In any case, are in the pre-16 or the older age group and on whether the providers of many of those services are few and far they continue to attend school or are in further education. between and operate, as the Minister knows, in a sellers’ Our aim is to establish much closer alignment between market. To suggest that the contracts could be negotiated the pre-16 and post-16 funding arrangements for those down is unrealistic and untenable. young people who have special educational needs, learning We are left in an appallingly difficult position, which difficulties and disabilities. Local authorities will be I hope the Minister will help us to resolve. The test of a required to establish a single high needs budget for use society is how it deals with the most vulnerable—those in meeting the needs of all age groups up to 25. who have no voice to argue on their own behalf, which Local authorities currently have statutory duties to is the case for many of those young people. The test make provision available for all students aged 16 to 19 of a Government is how they deal with unintended and for those aged 19 to 24 who have a learning difficulty consequences. I do not believe that this Government assessment. They only have a funding responsibility for intended these consequences, or that they intended to such students in schools, however, not for students in leave young people with serious disabilities and a high specialist or general further education colleges or sixth-form level of special need without places in the coming year. colleges. Additional support funding for those institutions There has to be another look at the provision. There currently comes directly from the Education Funding has to be a way of resolving the problem through Agency, as the hon. Lady mentioned. Although the discussion between the council and the Department, agency takes into account the local authority’s decisions because at the heart of this dispute are those young on student placements, we believe that better funding people. They did not seek this problem, they do not decisions will be taken, and a more efficient use of deserve to have the consequences foisted on them, and resources achieved, if the commissioning and funding they deserve to have their needs met. That is what I responsibilities are more closely associated within local hope the Minister can do for us this afternoon. It is authorities. That is one of the key aims of our reforms simply morally wrong that those young people should to the funding of young people with high level needs. be left without the provision they need next year. I hope In seeking arrangements that offer good value for that, in his answer, the Minister will offer us a way to money, as taxpayers expect, I assure the hon. Lady that resolve the issue, to the benefit of some of the most we are not using the change as an opportunity to cut vulnerable young people in our area. funding overall. 241WH Post-16 High Needs Provision 15 JANUARY 2013 Post-16 High Needs Provision 242WH (Warrington) (Warrington) Helen Jones: I am listening carefully to what the The process so far has been complex for some local Minister is saying, but does he not accept that if the authorities, including Warrington, because the pattern responsibility for commissioning those places transfers of provision has changed significantly in some areas in to the local authority, the funding has to transfer as recent years, or because the required information has well? The funding that is transferring to Warrington not been readily available or verifiable. Some authorities is less than that which will be spent this year, and is claimed increases in the number of high needs students certainly not enough to meet the places that we need of 25% or more over three years. Warrington council next year. was one that declared such an increase—in fact, an increase of some 65% from 113 in 2011-12 to a projected Mr Laws: I understand the hon. Lady’s concerns, and 186 in 2013-14. I hope that I will be able to address some of them and put her mind a little at rest as I go on. Helen Jones: I want to draw two things to the Minister’s On the national picture, our plans are to increase attention. First, the local authority tells me that part of funding for post-16 students with learning difficulties that increase can be accounted for because it has become and disabilities. We spent £585 million in this area in better at identifying those with special needs. Under the 2011-12, and we are planning to spend £639 million old system, which was run through Connexions, we in 2013-14, which is an increase of 9%. In previous were not good at identifying those with high-level special years, the budget for specialist provision, which is now needs. Secondly, I hope the Minister accepts that the administered by the EFA, has not been fully utilised. figures given by Warrington have been verified by his We are not reflecting that underspend in the transfers own officials. There is no dispute about how many will we are making to local authority high needs budgets, so need provision next year. overall spending on young people with high needs throughout the country is set to increase by a significant Mr Laws: That is important because the Department amount over this period. must be able to distinguish between areas where the figures may be unreliable and those where they are In the new system, post-16 funding will be of two reliable. We recognise that there may be issues in Warrington. kinds. To provide stability to providers, a proportion of funding will be based on places, which I think the hon. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): It is true Lady understands. Providers will receive an amount per that the rate has gone up significantly in the last year, place of nearly £11,000 for the year. That funding will which is causing the anomaly. Even after it has gone up, be guaranteed for the year, whether or not the places are it is still lower than the national average. Surely that is utilised, and it will flow to all providers from the Education relevant to the way in which the computation is done, Funding Agency according to a national formula. The because it does not imply any abuse. other kind of funding—top-up funding—will reflect the excess of additional support costs over the place-led Mr Laws: My hon. Friend makes an important point. funding, and will be paid in every case by the local When looking at the statistics and trying to understand authority responsible for placing each student. This why the changes have taken place in specific authorities, element of funding will follow the student and therefore my officials will carry out such checks to test the ensure that funding is not allocated to empty places. credibility of the data. We believe that this level of The hon. Lady rightly highlighted the local impact of increase may in some cases result from misunderstanding the changes that we are making. Hon. Members will or inaccurate predictions of the number of students understand from what I have just explained that to with high-level needs because that scale of growth in move to this better system we must make adjustments numbers is not reflected across the country in the lower to local authority funding allocations. As the hon. Lady age groups. To manage expectations, the Education indicated, budgets have been based on what was spent Funding Agency set a limit of 24% to cap the projected on high needs students resident in each local authority increase in the number of student places, and has area in the 2011-12 academic year, which is the latest encouraged authorities in some cases to provide more full set of data that the Department holds. Since last realistic estimates of places where the original increase August, the Education Funding Agency has shared reported cannot be justified. I am not saying that that is information with, and gathered information from each the case in Warrington, but in some areas that has been local authority. That is to inform the distribution of a concern. A cap has been necessary to be fair to all funds between the place-led element, which is driven by local authorities. a national formula, and the student-led element, over As a result of the exchange of information between which the local authority has discretion. In fairness to Warrington council and the EFA, the position reached all local authorities, we have not attempted as part of just before Christmas was that the post-16 element of the process to redistribute the budgets between them. its high needs allocation will be £677,000 next year, We have encouraged authorities to collaborate with within a total high needs budget of £18 million. The all the schools and colleges that are currently educating EFA is now looking at more recent information from their students with learning difficulties and disabilities, the council to see whether further adjustments are so that they understand the scale of demand for future necessary to the amount allocated to it. The particular high needs provision and can decide how best to meet issue in Warrington is that it has predicted a significant that within their high needs budget. This exercise will increase of 65% in the number of places and a significant enable the place-led funding for each school, college or increase in consequent costs since 2011. Within the other provider to be settled so they can plan for their increase in recent years, a much larger number of students intake in September. The remainder of the funds will be have, as the hon. Lady said, attended non-maintained with local authorities, as part of their high needs budget, and independent special schools and colleges, which to allocate as top-up funding for individual students. tend to be more expensive. 243WH Post-16 High Needs Provision 15 JANUARY 2013 Post-16 High Needs Provision 244WH (Warrington) (Warrington) [Mr Laws] EFA and her local authority to ensure that there is a sensible conclusion. She will understand that until the Although the window for further adjustments to process has been completed, I cannot give a cast-iron dedicated schools grant allocations has now generally assurance of any outcome, but I can assure her that we closed, the further education and school sixth form are treating her concerns seriously, and looking into elements of those allocations are not due to be finalised them. If adjustments are necessary, we are open to until early March. In general, we expect all local authorities making them in a limited number of strong cases. to live within the overall dedicated schools grant that they have been allocated. For Warrington borough council I am grateful to the hon. Lady for drawing attention that is £146 million, within which the high needs allocation to how students aged 16 to 24 with high needs will be is £18 million. We are aware that there may be unintended funded. This is an important question for many young consequences arising from the changes due to specific people and their families, and I hope that I have been local circumstances, such as those set out today by the able to provide some reassurance about the national hon. Member for Warrington North and my hon. Friend picture and reassurance that concerns at local level will the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat). be treated seriously if they are based on clear evidence that changes in recent years have not been taken fully An opportunity remains until 22 February for a few into account. Our funding reforms will be complemented local authorities to make an exceptional case to the by new legislation later this year. It is being designed to Education Funding Agency, and I assure them that the address some of the wider problems with the current EFA and my officials will look carefully at whether support systems for young people with learning difficulties adjustments can and should be made if the changes and disabilities. In the meantime, we will continue to have affected particular areas in ways that were not work with local authorities, including Warrington, and predicted, and if they are material. In its review of such schools and colleges across the country to implement cases, the agency will ensure that any further adjustments the funding changes, and to monitor and assess their are not to the detriment of other local authorities. We impact. We will of course make adjustments in future want to be as fair as we can to all authorities. years if that proves necessary. Helen Jones: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is being very generous. Will he or a Minister in I thank the hon. Lady and my hon. Friend for raising his Department meet a delegation from the borough this issue seriously and in detail. As I said, I cannot give council to try to iron out the issues, because they have a commitment today, other than to say that we are serious implications for some very vulnerable young engaging seriously with her and her local authority. We people? will examine the issue carefully, and I am happy to meet the hon. Lady and her colleagues from the area, if that Mr Laws: I will certain meet the hon. Lady and is appropriate, to discuss the matter with officials. If we representatives from the council. Indeed, there will be a believe that changes are necessary, we will implement dialogue, as I have said, between the Department, the them. 245WH 15 JANUARY 2013 Leisure Services (North East 246WH Lincolnshire) Leisure Services (North East Lincolnshire) Martin Vickers: Indeed—a new form of campaigning, which I am sure will catch on. The hon. Gentleman and I have met with a developer 4.30 pm who has considerable experience of providing similar facilities for local authorities and with the private sector. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): It is a pleasure They have offered to carry out a free survey and feel to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, confident that alternatives exist that could deliver more Mr Owen. With your permission, I have invited the for the money available. Surely it makes sense to pause hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) to and accept that and other offers the council has received share the debate with me. I have advised the Minister, to ensure that the taxpayer gets value for money. Local who is happy with that, and I hope that meets with your people, even if the final decision goes against their approval. The Minister has indicated that 10 minutes wishes, at least deserve the satisfaction of being involved will be sufficient for his summing up. in a proper consultation and a fully transparent process. I appreciate that this matter is ultimately one for the It is possible that the companies, having studied the local authority, which in this case is North East Lincolnshire proposals, met council officers and visited the sites, unitary authority, so I appreciate that it will be difficult would conclude that the council’s proposal is the best for the Minister to give a direct response. However, way forward. It is unlikely, but it is possible. It is a although it is a matter for the council, a considerable disgrace that the council is denying those opportunities amount of public money is involved and one of the to deliver more for the taxpayers’ money. If more cost- funding streams is, either directly or indirectly, Government effective solutions are available, surely they should be money. Local opinion is very strongly of the view that considered. It is suggested that for around £2.5 million the current proposals for the future of leisure services in the Scartho baths could be refurbished, adding another the borough will, if implemented, provide lesser facilities 15 to 20 years to its life. for a considerably greater cost. Following the introduction of the Localism Act 2011, In recent years, the authority has rightly undertaken I know that the Government are keen to ensure that a review of its leisure services provision and updated it local authorities undertake proper consultation before to meet changing circumstances. One scheme that making such major decisions about local facilities. It is unfortunately fell by the wayside as a result of the not unknown for councils or even, dare I suggest, financial incompetence of the Learning and Skills Council Governments—surely not this one—to go through what was a learning village situated only a few hundred yards could be described as a sham consultation, but the one from Scartho baths, which I will talk about in a moment. undertaken by North East Lincolnshire council on this Unfortunately, the revised conclusions that have been issue reached a new low. proposed rest on rather doubtful projections that are The consultation was undertaken when, following a hotly disputed by campaigners, who, after receiving public outcry, the matter was referred to the council’s expert advice, have put forward some well reasoned scrutiny panel. Residents were quite reasonably expecting alternatives. an extended, detailed debate, together with a proper consultation, to be able to indicate whether the Scartho The most contentious of the council’s proposals is pool should be refurbished or replaced. The only mention the closure of the Scartho road swimming pool, known of the pool in the consultation was in one of the locally as Scartho baths. The pool is approaching 50 years questions, which said, “The following facilities are coming of age and it is accepted that significant investment is to the end of their life, which would you replace? Please required if it is to be given a new lease of life. I should choose one of the following: Grimsby swimming pool mention that the pool is in the constituency of the hon. or Grimsby leisure centre.” Other questions included, Member for Great Grimsby, but it serves the whole of “Should the council continue to provide quality leisure the council area and beyond. The council is proposing a facilities within the borough? Yes or No.” It would be 25 metre pool at Grimsby leisure centre, which is on the difficult to answer anything but yes. Question 2 was, outskirts of the town and access by public transport is “Given the tough decisions the council is having to take difficult for a great many local people. The leisure around substantial reductions in funding, should it centre itself is now 40 years old and I acknowledge that replace ageing leisure facilities?” Again, it is hardly it also needs refurbishment. It houses a range of facilities, possible to say no. It is irresponsible in the extreme for most notably an ice rink, and I will return to the future the council to plough on in such circumstances. of the rink shortly. Campaigners have consulted a wide range of experts, I am usually reluctant to criticise the local authority and I am sure that the demand for transparency suggests publicly, as I recognise that we as Members must work that the council should at least stop and consider alternative with our local councils, irrespective of their political proposals. It is possible that additional funding might colour, on a range of issues. However, this issue has be available. I spoke to the Minister of State, Department been dominating the local media in north-east Lincolnshire for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the and is therefore an exception. The hon. Gentleman and Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), I have been supporting local residents, and in particular and he has indicated that there might be pots of money the Save Scartho Baths campaign, and there is overwhelming for which the council might be able to bid. I believe that local opposition to what has been proposed. The hon. now is the time for the council to pause and reconsider Gentleman went so far as to use his Christmas card to how best to move forward with the backing of local highlight the council’s folly. people. That excellent journal of local record, the Grimsby Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I posed in a Telegraph, carried a letter from one of my constituents, swimming costume. who says, having heard the council state that 247WH Leisure Services (North East 15 JANUARY 2013 Leisure Services (North East 248WH Lincolnshire) Lincolnshire) [Martin Vickers] start that we have no desire to challenge the council and still less to try to dictate policy to the council. That is “this current administration is committed to investing in tourism not the job of MPs. The council takes the decisions and leisure, I find it very reassuring. My difficulty is understanding relevant to the council, and the swimming baths are how and why they seem to be getting it so wrong. Any reader of relevant to its portfolio. The point of the involvement of this paper will have noticed that they are getting little or no MPs is, first, to represent the views of our constituents, support for their proposals. The majority of the public, especially those who use our leisure facilities, find no justification in pulling and very strong opposition was demonstrated to closure down Scartho Baths. Indeed, it is just the opposite.” of the Scartho Road baths. Indeed, a petition was I am sure that the plea will have reached the local signed by more than 5,000 residents of the area against authority. Until now, it has not acted on it, but I hope closure. There was a strong feeling that they had not that further consideration will be given. been properly consulted. We took up the case and managed to secure another consultation, although, as I mentioned the Grimsby ice rink, which is located at the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) the leisure centre and is also under threat. In part that is said, it was not adequate, as the questions were fairly due to the coolant used to keep the ice frozen, but my loaded towards the closure of the Scartho Road baths. point is that the loss of the rink now seems inevitable, However, the council did accept the need for a new because although a previous council resolution stated consultation. that moneys returned from the council’s investments in Icelandic banks would be ring-fenced for either a new Our responsibility is, secondly, to get the best possible ice rink or refurbishment of the existing one, I understand deal, in the light of the very acute financial stringency that that ring-fencing has now been removed. The ice that the current Government have imposed on our rink now seems doomed—yet another blow for residents council. It has suffered very badly in the cuts—certainly of the borough. worse than any authority in the south would have suffered, or many richer authorities have suffered. Our The Grimsby and Cleethorpes area is a low-wage responsibility is to get the best possible financial deal on area: the average salary is £20,000 or thereabouts, which the provision of swimming facilities, and we asked is considerably less than the national average and £3,000 whether the best possible deal was achieved by refurbishing less than the regional average. Although some excellent Scartho Road baths, which is 50 years old. In fact, it private facilities offer good discounts, the reality is that had its birthday in December. That is the first time a many people across the borough rely on leisure facilities swimming baths has been almost as old as the Member provided by the council. I must say to the Minister that for the constituency. However, the pool, like the Member North East Lincolnshire council has not fared at all for the constituency, is still in good condition and well from recent funding decisions by his Department, eminently refurbishable. Or was the best financial deal but that is a debate for another occasion. We all accept achieved by going for a new pool? That is what the that we are living through particularly difficult financial council wanted to do. It wanted to establish that pool at times and that the authority must consider whether an the Willows leisure centre in Cromwell road. The aim £8 million new build is better than spending £2 million was not to pay the staffs of two centres to do work that or £3 million on a refurbishment, particularly when could be done by the staff of one centre and to economise most local people believe that they would be getting a in that fashion. better facility. Another of our responsibilities was to ensure, if the Like many local people, I learned to swim at Scartho council did go for a new pool, as it wanted to do, that baths and skate at Grimsby leisure centre—neither very that pool was the best possible pool, with the facilities well, it has to be said. We value the facilities and firmly that children, young people and adults need to train to believe that the council should call a halt to what is become future Olympic champions and to go into proposed, reconsider, involve local people in its decision- championship swimming. There is now a passionate making process in a meaningful way and engage with desire to train. A growing number of kids want to train Government agencies again to see whether, in this post- to develop Olympic capabilities. There is a growing Olympic world, other funding streams are available. All demand for that kind of facility and training. We want we ask, as the local Members of Parliament, is that the Grimsby to breed champions—it has in many other council pause and reconsider. Surely, local people deserve areas—and that means having the best possible facilities that. for the whole region. Ours is a region of 250,000 people; The Deputy Leader of the House said in his reply to it serves the needs of 250,000 people. A good leisure the pre-Christmas Adjournment debate in the House, pool, up to proper Olympic standards, would be a when I raised this issue previously, that my plea for the facility for the whole area, which is under-provided for local authority to listen again was on record and that he in many respects. hoped that the council would reconsider. I hope that this Minister will also ask that it do so, and perhaps a In the light of what I have described, we thought it little more successfully.If the Department for Communities best—we thought it sensible—to take soundings from and Local Government can exert any pressure on the pool providers. There are a number of expert pool council, local people, I can assure him, will greatly providers. They are comparatively unemployed—under- appreciate it. Our plea to the council is a plea to pause employed certainly—at present, with the cuts in council and reconsider. Surely, that is not too much to ask. spending. We wanted to take soundings and get costings. One provider in particular, from the north-east, undertook to come down and give us free estimates and free advice 4.40 pm on the best course. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): It is very We discovered during our inquiries that providers important to raise this issue, and I am grateful for the were building pools at much lower cost than the council opportunity to take part in doing so. I emphasise at the was estimating would be necessary to build a 25-metre 249WH Leisure Services (North East 15 JANUARY 2013 Leisure Services (North East 250WH Lincolnshire) Lincolnshire) pool, as the hon. Member for Cleethorpes said. They certain amount of hemming and hawing, one official could even provide a 50-metre pool—in other words, a came up with the idea that we got the experience of and pool up to Olympic standards. To train in such a pool, enthusiasm for volunteering. That is not enough. We anyone from the Grimsby and Cleethorpes area would need money as well to support local activities. What have to go to Ponds Forge, at Sheffield, which is the finances are available, first, for refurbishment of an nearest available Olympic-sized training pool. Anyone existing pool and, secondly and more importantly, for who wants to go on to championship swimming has to the provision of a new, bigger pool—it could be a train in such a pool, and that is the nearest one. Why regional pool—to provide top-rank facilities of Olympic should we not have a 50-metre pool for our area? That standard with a diving facility for the whole area? What is the question. The provider that I have mentioned said finance is available from Government? How do we set that that was possible at a price that was still lower than about tackling this? the council was estimating it would cost to provide a We want a centre of excellence for Grimsby, Cleethorpes 25-metre pool in the Willows leisure centre. and the surrounding area, to help local young people who aspire to be swimmers—perhaps in the Olympics Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I congratulate and the swimming championships, which are now so my two constituency neighbours, my hon. Friend the important—to achieve their ambitions. Grimsby deserves Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and the hon. the best. The hon. Member for Cleethorpes and I will Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), on this ensure that it gets it. excellent debate. A 50-metre pool is of course something that North East Lincolnshire council could work with 4.50 pm other authorities in the area to try to provide, because we do have a vision of making ours an area of sporting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for excellence. North Lincolnshire, the East Riding and Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I Hull could be brought into that potentially. am grateful to the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) for securing the debate and to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) for his comments. Austin Mitchell: I thought that the hon. Gentleman Hon. Members will no doubt be aware that the Department was going to express admiration for my appearance in a for Culture, Media and Sport sets the policy framework swimming costume, but as he raises a financial matter, I for sport funding decisions. Day-to-day decision making agree absolutely with what he says. There is no reason on the distribution of funding for sport and physical why we should not co-operate with other local authorities activity rests with the funding bodies, which, to touch to provide something central for the area in Grimsby on the closing comments of the hon. Member for Great and Cleethorpes, which would remain the centre of Grimsby, are Sport England and UK Sport. population. That could draw swimmers, in the way Ponds Forge does to Sheffield, to the Hull area. We all know, and have all recorded, how much the summer’s Olympics gave this country and how proud The provider said that the pool could be provided at a we are of everything achieved. Members here will rightly cost lower than the council had estimated for 25 metres, be particularly impressed with and want to praise the although the costs of running it would be higher. It abilities of medallists from Lincolnshire, such as Sophie would also be a pool that had diving facilities, which the Wells, Hannah Macleod and Georgie Twigg. If we are council does not now intend to transfer from the Scartho to repeat the success of last summer’s games in 2016, we Road baths to the leisure centre baths. Modern young must ensure that our athletes have the best possible people in training, particularly at championship level, conditions in which to train. That is where today’s need diving facilities and a diving well in the pool as debate becomes particularly topical and why the Prime well. All that could be provided at a lower cost than the Minister announced that UK Sport will receive about council was estimating. We therefore argued that it was £125 million a year over the next four years to provide best to bring in these consultants to lay the ground—to sports’ governing bodies with the certainty that they give us proper information on what could be done and need to put in place long-term plans. what was available. It is sensible, in taking any decision, In the few moments that I have available, I shall touch for people to have the fullest information and the fullest on a couple of specific points. The hon. Member for costings before they let the contract, so that they know Great Grimsby commented on how funding is distributed what they are doing. between the north and the south. If he will excuse me, I It is important to keep Grimsby swimming, especially must challenge him. The Library has published reports the young people. Swimming is for life, after all. Swimming recently that show that the situation he described is not is for health and swimming is for well-being. We want it the case. I speak as a Member of Parliament for an to be encouraged and sustained in our area. This is eastern constituency in the south, which has had one of where the Minister, I hope, will be able to help us and the biggest cuts in the country, thanks to the legacy of where Government can help. I do not expect the Minister the funding settlement of the previous Government to say, “By God, these two are all right and the argument under Labour. I would strongly argue that point. is strong,” give way immediately and provide Grimsby The hon. Gentleman also tempts me to talk about with the money to establish a big pool, but I do hope for legacy opportunities. We will feed his comments through advice from the Government and from the Minister on to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, because, the provision of facilities for Grimsby. What advice—what as he will appreciate, it is an issue for that Department help—is available? in particular. He is right about the concern to ensure We had before the Public Accounts Committee the that people across the country benefit from the legacy people responsible for the Olympic provision, which of the Olympic games, which partly comes down to the was very successful. I asked them, “What does Grimsby sporting opportunities that young people have to become get out of the legacy from the Olympics?” After a the superstars and Olympians of tomorrow. 251WH Leisure Services (North East 15 JANUARY 2013 Leisure Services (North East 252WH Lincolnshire) Lincolnshire) [Brandon Lewis] The Localism Act 2011 introduced the community right to challenge, which enables communities and the The Department for Communities and Local voluntary sector to question how services are provided Government has responsibility for local government, and to have the ambition to challenge and make plans including promoting the leadership role that local authorities to take them over. In this case, it is not necessarily play in the strategic management of the public estate in impossible for local communities to look into that right, their areas. I know that hon. Members here all share the if they feel strongly. view that we need to disperse power from central As a result of the changes that we have made, local Government to society—the hon. Member for Cleethorpes authorities have greatly improved the way that they and I took part in a debate a couple of weeks ago manage their assets. There is still room for improvement outlining that view. Localism is just that: doing everything to ensure that they make the right decisions, with the that we can as close as we can to the residents and best value for money, in the best interests of local citizens we represent, fully involving them in decisions residents. To continue to support and drive the agenda about their areas—local people making local decisions forward, the capital and asset pathfinder programme, on local issues, with central Government involved only delivered by the Local Government Association with when absolutely necessary. support from the Department, has already supported The Government have strengthened the distinct role 26 councils. Councils that have been involved in waves 1 of local government as an autonomous political institution and 2 have already achieved significant local savings that builds and leads communities and provides services. and have gone some way to offsetting the reduction in Our actions are giving local authorities unprecedented the rate support grant. Wave 3 of the programme, freedom to get on and work in the best way for residents launched on 26 October last year, concentrates on and local businesses. The Government’s approach to promoting local growth as well as delivering efficiency localism is therefore about passing power down to citizens savings. It sounds as though local authority in this case —greater power held locally by accountable local authorities should look at that. to help them to make a difference in their communities. The Government believe that it is for local authorities, in consultation—I stress, in consultation—with their It is to their great credit that all three members here communities to decide how to make best use of their today are working not only cross-party, but cross-border assets, including the relative benefits and costs of replacing to represent their residents. We should ensure that the or refurbishing assets, because they are best placed to local authority is very much aware that this is not about know what works and what is most appropriate for party politics, but about Members across borders and their local area, in a way that central Government across parties coming together to do what they can to cannot. To do that, local authorities must consult and ensure that their residents’ views are represented. I work with local residents and take their views on board. acknowledge that and I think it only right that the local authority takes notice of the fact that Members have Members commented on whether a consultation was come together in that way. My thanks go to the hon. genuine. I hope that they note that we responded and Gentlemen for putting forward such a cohesive position. made changes following the last consultation that I ran in my Department on the business rates retention scheme, If Members will excuse me for being simplistic about which shows that even central Government—to pick up this, there is a great quote from, I think, a Spiderman on the comments earlier—can, should and do listen to film: consultations when making our final decisions, and “With great power comes great responsibility”. local authorities should do so, too. We encourage, and I strongly encourage, local authorities to engage with In this case, that means that for local councils and their communities when considering options for managing authorities to be able to say that they clearly represent their assets. We consider it best practice for local authorities their communities, they must look at, listen to and work to consider the preparation of their asset management with communities to ensure that they make decisions strategies in consultation with their communities. with them. Members have made a strong case today, and in this case, whether or not that is true, the local In conclusion, as Members outlined at the beginning community council and local authority need to look and will understand, I am not in a position to comment carefully at how they have gone about making their on the specifics of the scheme the hon. Member for decision. I shall return to that point in a moment. Cleethorpes highlighted, because I have not seen the business case weighing up the relative financial situation. Local communities hold their councils to account, I have set out the Government’s general approach and ultimately through their voting power at local elections. view, and I support the concerns of the hon. Gentlemen Local councillors making decisions should bear that in and my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole mind; it is an important part of the democratic process. (Andrew Percy). Local authorities should consider the The Government have also introduced measures that most efficient way to use what are ultimately scarce increase transparency to allow local people to have a resources and, most importantly, that they do so in better view of what is happening locally, to create more genuine consultation with the communities that they openness and to strengthen democratic accountability. serve. We have introduced greater transparency on how public Question put and agreed to. money is spent locally, and in this case, Members have clearly done a great job in highlighting decisions to 4.58 pm local people. Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

the country improve the thermal efficiency of homes in Written Ministerial their area. This money will be targeted at low-income and vulnerable households, helping them cut their energy Statements costs and keep warm this winter and in the future, by installing efficient heating systems and insulation. Tuesday 15 January 2013 In addition to this funding Government are making sure the most vulnerable households get direct financial help from their supplier. Over 1 million pensioners will TREASURY get £130 off their fuel bills this winter as part of the EU Justice and Home Affairs Opt-in Decision warm home discount scheme, with the wider scheme helping around 2 million households overall this year. And direct from the Government, all pensioner households The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): under 79 will get £200 winter fuel payment this winter The Government have opted in to the European and those over 80 will get £300—these payments will be Commission’s proposals for a directive of the European paid out to an estimated 12.7 million older people in Parliament and of the Council on insurance mediation more than 9 million homes. (recast) (IMD 2) and proposal for a regulation of the £10 million to kick-start green deal “Pioneer Places” European Parliament and of the Council on key projects information documents for investment products (KIDs). The green deal, the coalition’s exciting, new and The Commission’s objective in revising the IMD is to innovative plan to help households in Britain improve improve regulation in the retail insurance market in an their home and save on energy bills, goes live this efficient manner. The proposals for IMD 2 aim at month. For an introductory period, householders taking ensuring a level playing field between all participants out a green deal will also be eligible for a cashback involved in the selling of insurance products and at incentive. Householders who use the green deal to make strengthening policyholder protection. improvements such as loft insulation, solid wall insulation The KID proposals aim to improve pre-contractual and new heating systems will qualify. Packages could be disclosure and the comparability of packaged retail worth over £1,000. investment products for consumers. They will do so by To help kick-start the green deal, funding has been obliging manufacturers to produce a comparable and awarded to 40 successful bids for green deal projects standardised disclosure called a KID, and requiring covering over 150 English councils. The money will be distributors to provide the KID before the sale. used for green deal household energy efficiency assessments, Both sets of proposals currently include provisions whole house retrofits to demonstrate the benefits of on alternative dispute resolution which impose requirements energy efficiency, and local events and other activities to on the UK’s civil justice system, in terms of the operation raise awareness of the green deal. This “Pioneer Places” of limitation periods and the availability of interim scheme builds on the £12 million investment already remedies. On this basis the Government consider that being channelled into seven green deal low-carbon cities, the JHA opt-in protocol applies and that the UK can announced last September, enabling even more areas to therefore choose whether to opt in. benefit. The Government believe that in view of the wider £5 million to set up collective switching schemes—“Cheaper significance of these proposals it is in the UK’s interests Energy Together” to participate, therefore we have opted in. Money has also been awarded to 31 successful bids under the “Cheaper Energy Together” scheme, covering ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE 94 local councils and eight third sector organisations in England, Scotland and Wales. Collective purchasing Local Authority Funds and switching is an innovative way for consumers to group together, through a trusted third party, and use The Minister of State, Department of Energy and market power to negotiate lower energy bills. Climate Change (Gregory Barker): On 19 October 2012, A press notice has been issued today including a link DECC launched a competition for local authorities to to a list of those projects that are to receive funding. A bid for £40 million of funding to deliver projects to list of the successful projects have been placed in the reduce fuel poverty, help kick-start green deal delivery Libraries of both Houses. and help consumers to save money on energy bills through collective switching. Organisations were able to Advanced Boiling Water Reactor submit stand-alone bids for one of the funds, or joint bids across two or all three of the competitions. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and DECC received a fantastic response, with bids received Climate Change (Mr John Hayes): I am today making a from the majority of local councils in England either statement to the House to let hon. Members know that for funding for individual projects, or as part of regional- I have asked the UK’s independent nuclear regulators, based applications. All three elements of the competition the Office for Nuclear Regulation and the Environment were heavily oversubscribed. In response we have been Agency, to conduct a generic design assessment(GDA) able to allocate £46 million to the fund. of the advanced boiling water reactor (ABWR). £31 million to help vulnerable householders keep warm This is the nuclear reactor design by Hitachi-GE this winter Nuclear Energy Ltd which Horizon Nuclear Power DECC has been able to increase the funding available intend to use in the new nuclear power stations which for the fuel poverty element so that we can support 61 they propose to build at Wylfa in Anglesey and Oldbury outstanding projects, helping 169 local authorities across in Gloucestershire. 31WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

In October I welcomed Hitachi’s purchase of Horizon in its entirety, accepted three proposals with modifications Nuclear Power and the confirmation that it intended to and did not approve one other. The tribunal recommended proceed with Horizon’s investment in Wylfa and Oldbury. that three related recommendations around compulsory This showed the willingness of international companies severance should be the subject of further discussions in to invest in the UK’s low-carbon energy future and the the Police Negotiating Board. I have today placed a confidence of the market in the Government’s proposals copy of the police arbitration tribunal report in the on regulatory reform of the electricity market. House of Commons Library. The Government welcome all such investment. However, I am grateful to the tribunal for its careful consideration the nuclear industry in the UK is rightly subject to a of these important issues. I have now considered the regulatory regime to ensure safety, security and mitigation tribunal’s report thoroughly and I have decided to accept of any potential environmental detriment. Generic design its recommendation and I am minded to implement the assessment is now an established feature of our regulatory package of reforms it has put forward. regime, and, as I told the House in December after the These reforms build on the changes we implemented completion of the GDA process for the AREVAEuropean following part 1 of the review, which I announced in a pressurised water reactor (EPR), it has shown itself to statement on 30 January last year. They continue our be an excellent process for rigorous and transparent programme to modernise police pay and conditions so nuclear regulation. that they are fair to both officers and the taxpayer. They I am therefore pleased to be asking the regulators to include measures to retarget pay to reward contribution, assess the ABWR through GDA. The application is an increase local flexibility and make important structural exceptional one. It is an application for GDA of a changes to enable further reform. reactor design which has already been in operation elsewhere in the world. And it follows the purchase by The tribunal deferred proposals around compulsory the vendor and designer of the intended operator of severance for further negotiations. These will be considered two sites which have been determined in the nuclear alongside other longer-term proposals I have asked the national policy statement as potentially suitable for the Police Negotiating Board to consider by July 2013. deployment of new nuclear power stations, and the We remain committed to the review’s principles and purchase of the sites themselves. objectives, in particular to modernising management I therefore think we are right to conduct a separate practices and to developing the vital link between pay exercise for this design. This does not rule out a further and professional skills. The development of the skills round of GDA covering other reactor designs which agenda is an essential part of both modernising pay and might be built in the UK and we intend to hold such a conditions and of our wider programme of police reform round at a future date to be determined by market and developing professionalism. This is something that developments and regulatory resources. the College of Policing will take forward in the context of the time scales recommended in the Winsor review. As with previous such assessments, the full cost of GDA will be charged to the requesting party which Existing police pay and conditions were designed submits the design for assessment. more than 30 years ago which is why we asked Tom Winsor to carry out his independent review. Police officers and staff deserve to have pay and workforce arrangements that recognise the vital role they play in HOME DEPARTMENT fighting crime and keeping the public safe, and enable them to deliver effectively for the public and these reforms support the objectives I set out in the review’s Police Officers and Staff (Remuneration and Conditions terms of reference to: of Service) use remuneration and conditions of service to maximise officer and staff deployment to front-line roles where their powers and skills are required; The Secretary of State for the Home Department provide remuneration and conditions of service that are fair (Mrs Theresa May): This statement is about police pay to and reasonable for both the public taxpayer and police and conditions. It provides the Government’s response officers and staff; to the police arbitration tribunal’s findings on the enable modern management practices in line with practices recommendations in the final report of Tom Winsor’s elsewhere in the public sector and the wider economy. independent review of police officer and staff remuneration In reaching this decision, I have had regard to a and conditions. number of vital considerations, including: On 27 March last year I laid a statement to respond the review’s three key objectives as set out above; to Tom Winsor’s final report of the review of remuneration and conditions police officers and staff, in which I the tough economic conditions and the Government’s wider announced that I was directing the Police Negotiating economic objectives, which include reduction of the deficit and the challenging but manageable reduction in Government Board to consider proposals relating to pay for police funding to the police over the spending review period; officers in England and Wales as a matter of urgency. the need to maintain and improve the service provided to the The Police Negotiating Board did not reach agreement public, taking account of a strong desire from the public to on some important proposals in the final report, and see more police officers and operational staff out on the these were referred to the police arbitration tribunal. front line of local policing and also recognising that there The tribunal has now provided its recommendation and are less visible front-line roles that require policing powers reasons, which I received on 6 December. The tribunal and skills in order to protect the public; considered eight recommendations from the Winsor the particular front-line role and nature of the Office of final report. The tribunal accepted one recommendation Constable, including the lack of a right to strike; 33WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

the Government’s wider objectives for police reform, including WORK AND PENSIONS developing professionalism in the police and the creation of the College of Policing, the introduction of police and crime commissioners, the reduction of police bureaucracy and Budgeting Loans collaboration between police forces and with other public services; the Government’s wider policy of pay and pensions in the pubic sector, and its proposals on long-term pensions and The Minister of State, Department for Work and reform of the police; Pensions (Steve Webb): The Welfare Reform Act 2012 the review’s analysis of the value of officer’s remuneration contains provisions for the abolition of the discretionary and conditions, as compared to other workforces; social fund scheme and the post of the social fund parallel work by the police to improve value for money, commissioner. The provisions about community care including collaboration with the private sector; grants and crisis loans will be commenced on 1 April 2013 and the provisions about the social fund commissioner’s the impact of the recommendations on equality and diversity. post will be commenced on 1 August 2013. The Government’s reform programme is working: crime is falling and public confidence is high. It is The budgeting loan scheme will however remain in imperative that the police are able to benefit from these place for claimants in receipt of existing legacy benefits further reforms as soon as possible, and I will therefore until they migrate to universal credit. immediately begin the process of amending the police There will be no change to how budgeting loans are regulations and determinations to implement the tribunal’s to be delivered. In relation to requests for reviews, recommendation, including making any necessary claimants who are dissatisfied with the outcome of an consequential and ancillary changes. initial decision will still be able to ask for a review in the first instance by Jobcentre Plus. The Independent Review Service which carries out PRIME MINISTER second-tier reviews will be closed at the same time as the social fund commissioner’s post is abolished. Arrangements have therefore been put in place for the office of the Appointment to the UK Delegation to the independent case examiner to undertake a second-tier Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe review for claimants who remain dissatisfied with their budgeting loan decision.

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela National Employment Savings Trust Watkinson) has been appointed as a full member of the United Kingdom Delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in place of the hon. Member The Minister of State, Department for Work and for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald). Pensions (Steve Webb): Later today the Government The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Jim will publish a response to the consultation document Dobbin) has also been appointed as a full member in “National Employment Savings Trust (NEST): Proposals place of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul for amendments to the NEST Order”. Flynn), who becomes a substitute member. In addition, the Government intend to lay the National The right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham Employment Savings Trust (Amendment) Order 2013 (Mrs Gillan), the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst before Parliament later today. Subject to the approval of (Robert Neill), the hon. Member for Cardiff North both Houses, this is scheduled to come into effect from (Jonathan Evans), the hon. Member for Bolton North 1 April 2013. East (Mr Crausby) and the hon. Member for Halifax The amending order will ensure that NEST’s statutory (Mrs Riordan) have been appointed as substitute members framework is updated to reflect current automatic enrolment in place of the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), requirements and to ensure that NEST continues to the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), the hon. operate efficiently for the employers and members who Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), the use it. hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) and the hon. I would like to thank the organisations who responded Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). to the consultation. I will place a copy of the Government’s Baroness Wilcox and Baroness Buscombe have been response in the Libraries of both Houses, which will appointed as substitute members in place of Lord Ahmad also be available on the Department’s website: http:// and Lord Boswell. www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2012/

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Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Written Answers to within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Questions Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 14 January 2013: As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Tuesday 15 January 2013 Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking for the number of MPs’ subsistence claims processed by IPSA. During the 2011/12 financial year we paid 5,527 claim lines for INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY MPs’ subsistence, 9,743 claim lines for MPs’ interns’ subsistence STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE and 271 claim lines for MPs’ staff members’ subsistence. Members: Subsistence Claims HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Robert Flello: To ask the hon. Member for Parliamentary Outreach Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Jim Sheridan: To ask the hon. Member for what the value was of subsistence claims processed on Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing behalf of hon. Members for the most recent year in the House of Commons Commission, what assessment which figures are available. [137059] the House of Commons Commission has made of the effectiveness of the Parliamentary Outreach Service. Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary [136600] Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. John Thurso: The Parliamentary Outreach Service Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 14 January 2013: promotes public understanding of, and engagement As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards with, the work of both Houses of Parliament. On Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary average it runs over 500 public workshops a year throughout Question asking for the value of MPs’ subsistence claims processed the UK, in addition to facilitating Select Committee by IPSA in the last financial year. visits away from Westminster. Recent developments include: These claims are published on our website at: the production of a series of resources for use by adults www.parliamentary-standards.org.uk with learning disabilities and their advocates; a training- During the 2011/12 financial year we paid claims to a value of the-trainer programme, and services and resources aimed £61,541.64 for MPs’ subsistence, £52,512.39 for MPs’ interns’ at staff and students from universities across the UK. subsistence and £2,815.89 for MPs’ staff members’ subsistence. The latter is particularly popular: the Outreach Service now engages with 137 universities and colleges and Robert Flello: To ask the hon. Member for demand far exceeds the Service’s capability to supply. Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Feedback is routinely gathered from those attending what the cost was of processing subsistence claims on outreach sessions, which are closely monitored to ensure behalf of hon. Members in the most recent year for that the Service continues to meet the needs of the public. Over 90% of people taking part feel they have a which figures are available. [137063] greater understanding of Parliament’s work and that Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls they feel better able to engage with Parliament. The within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary work of the Outreach Service was recognised in the Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. recent Liaison Committee Report, ‘Select committee effectiveness, resources and powers’, which noted that: Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 14 January 2013: “Committees have been greatly assisted in this [public engagement] As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards work by the Regional Officers of the Parliamentary Outreach Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Service.” Question asking for the cost of processing MPs’ subsistence claims in the last financial year. The House of Commons Commission, and the Administration and Finance and Services Committees, We do not hold—and it is not possible separately to calculate— regularly reviews the efficiency and effectiveness of services figures on the cost to process a subsistence claim specifically, but we estimate that the cost of processing a claim in 2012/13 will be, provided by the House Administration, including the on average: Outreach Service. The House of Commons Commission £4.60, if salary costs of those directly involved in the operation Annual Report highlights the contribution that of processing claims are taken into account; and parliamentary outreach makes to achieving the House’s strategic aims. The House Administration monitors a £12.32, if overheads and corporate costs are added to those direct costs. number of key performance indicators for the Outreach Service. These estimates are based on a methodology agreed with the National Audit Office.

Robert Flello: To ask the hon. Member for TRANSPORT Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Cycling: Accidents the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many subsistence claims were processed on behalf Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for of hon. Members in the most recent year for which Transport what steps he is taking to reduce the number figures are available. [137064] of cyclists seriously injured on roads. [136631] 641W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 642W

Stephen Hammond: The Government takes the safety Stephen Hammond: The following table provides the of cyclists very seriously. In 2012 the Government number of vehicles registered at the Driver and Vehicle announced a £15 million fund to improve safety for Licensing Agency previously registered outside the United cyclists outside London, by tackling dangerous junctions. Kingdom, for each of the last five financial years. This was in addition to the £15 million fund awarded to Transport for London in March for the same purpose. Financial year Volumes Furthermore, part of the recently announced £20 million in cycle funding will go towards tackling dangerous 2011-12 59,405 junctions. 2010-11 63,604 2009-10 65,235 We have provided £600 million through the Local 2008-09 75,101 Sustainable Transport Fund to support local authorities 2007-08 95,038 in their use of transport to lever growth and cut carbon at the local level. The majority of the 96 projects have a cycling element. This year, we have committed £11 million Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance for Bikeability training to help a new generation of cyclists gain the skills and knowledge they need to cycle Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for safely and competently on today’s roads. This funding Transport (1) what the annual budget is for placing new will help more than 275,000 school children to access chevrons on motorways for the purpose of encouraging training. safer spacing between moving cars; [136134] We have also made it easier for councils to put in (2) how many miles of chevrons designed to place 20 mph zones and limits, and to install Trixi encourage safer spacing between moving cars there are mirrors to improve the visibility of cyclists at junctions. on the (a) M1, (b) M3, (c) M4, (d) M5, (e) M6 and Last September I launched the ‘THINK CYCLIST!’ (f) M25. [136136] campaign, which offers advice to drivers and cyclists on how to stay safe on the road. Stephen Hammond [holding answer 10 January 2013]: There is not a specific budget allocated for the painting M1 of white chevrons for vehicle spacing. Where considered appropriate, the cost of placing new chevrons on motorways Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for would be included as part of a carriageway renewal Transport what the total cost is of the new traffic scheme. calming measures incorporating a series of speed For the motorways listed there are approximately cameras on the southern end of the M1. [136135] 45 miles of painted white chevrons to remind drivers to keep a safe distance apart: Stephen Hammond [holding answer 10 January 2013]: The range estimate for the entire M1 Junction 10 to M1: three miles 13 improvement scheme is £412 million (minimum) to M3: none £504 million (maximum). M4: 14.8 miles The speed enforcement camera system is an integral M5: 15.5 miles part of the new technologies provided to manage traffic M6: 11.7 miles flow, reduce congestion and allow use of the hard M25: none. shoulder at peak times, and its cost is not separately identified. Railways: Public Holidays M6 Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions he has had with rail Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for operators regarding the running of services on Boxing Transport what enquiries he has made of the (a) Day. [136654] Highways Agency and (b) Staffordshire police authority about the delays on the M6 on Christmas Norman Baker: Rail Franchisees are under no obligation Day. [136658] to operate services on Boxing Day, but are at liberty to propose doing so. We have had discussions with Stephen Hammond: The incident on the M6 between Southeastern on their plans to run an experimental junction 14-15 on Christmas Day was a police led service on Boxing Day 2012, but have not recently incident as it involved multiple fatalities. I have asked discussed with the industry as a whole the issue of for a full debrief to take place into the incident; this will whether to run Boxing Day services across the network. be completed within the next few weeks. It will include the Highways Agency, Staffordshire police and the other emergency services involved. The investigation will assess Shipping: Employment all the aspects of the incident including the time taken to re-open the carriageway. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many new jobs directly created in Motor Vehicles: Registration the maritime industry there were in each year since 2008-09; and how many such jobs were filled by (a) Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for UK seafarer ratings, (b) UK seafarer officers, (c) EEA Transport how many previously foreign registered seafarer ratings, (d) EEA seafarer officers, (e) vehicles were re-registered with the Driver and Vehicle non-EEA seafarer ratings and (f) non-EEA seafarer Licensing Agency in each of the last five years. [137044] officers in each such year; [136533] 643W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 644W

(2) what proportion of new jobs directly created in DfT encourages bus operators to look at the fare the maritime industry in each year since 2008-09 were deals they can offer to young people looking for work. I on (a) UK-registered and (b) non-UK-registered am pleased that bus operators are taking part in the Bus vessels in the tonnage tax scheme; [136534] for Jobs initiative in January 2013, and I look forward (3) what proportion of new jobs directly created in to seeing other offers in the future. the maritime industry in each year since 2008-09 were In addition, concessionary travel legislation gives local on (a) UK-registered and (b) non-UK-registered authorities the flexibility to offer discretionary local vessels outside the tonnage tax scheme; [136535] travel concessions such as free or discounted travel to (4) what proportion of new jobs directly created in jobseekers. the maritime industry in each year since 2008-09 were Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for based in (a) UK ports, (b) shipping services and (c) Transport what guidance his Department has provided other maritime business services; [136536] for Jobcentre Plus staff on the Bus for Jobs initiative. (5) what the total number of jobs was on (a) [137065] UK-registered and (b) non-UK-registered ships in the tonnage tax scheme in each year since 2001-02; Norman Baker: The Department for Work and Pensions [136537] provided Jobcentre Plus staff with operational guidance (6) how many new jobs there were on (a) and instructions which included information on UK-registered and (b) non-UK-registered ships in the participating companies and the areas where the free tonnage tax scheme in each year since 2001-02; and travel is available. Guidance and information was in how many such jobs were filled by (i) UK seafarer place three weeks before the initiative started and a ratings, (ii) UK seafarer officers, (iii) EEA seafarer wide range of internal publicity was delivered to publicise ″ ratings, (iv) EEA seafarer officers, (v) non-EEA the initiative when it was formally announced by Greener ″ seafarer ratings and (vi) non-EEA seafarer officers. Journeys . [136538]

Stephen Hammond: The Department only holds figures INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for seafarers employed in the deck and engine departments on vessels in the tonnage tax. The numbers of such Argentina seafarer jobs, as currently reported to us by companies and groups for each tonnage tax training commitment Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for year, are as follows: International Development what position her Department has taken at the World Bank regarding the [136653] Training Non-UK registered granting of further loans to Argentina. commitment year1 UK registered ships ships Mr Duncan: There have been no new loans to Argentina 2003-04 6,421 6,027 tabled at the World Bank since September 2011. There 2004-05 7,561 5,962 are also currently no new loans scheduled. The UK has 2005-06 7,143 7,,669 not supported recent proposals for projects in Argentina 2006-07 7,955 8,667 proposed at the Inter-American Development Bank. 2007-08 8,497 9,818 Bangladesh 2008-09 8,778 10,139 2009-10 8,900 9,992 Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 8,534 9,834 International Development what assessment she has 2011-12 8,227 11,396 made of the working conditions and rights of 2012-13 7,765 12,159 labourers in the ready-made garment industry in 1 The number of seafarers employed on vessels in tonnage tax was Bangladesh. [136622] 9,666 in 2001-02 and 11,818 in 2002-03; a breakdown of these figures by UK and non-UK registered ships is not available. Mr Duncan: DFID has not carried out its own assessment We do not hold the other information requested. of working conditions. A Bangladeshi Non-Governmental Organisation, funded by UK aid, carried out an assessment Unemployed People: Travel of working conditions in the ready-made garments and construction industries in April 2010. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The study, which compared Bangladeshi labour law Transport (1) what plans his Department has to assist and practice to international standards, proposed reforms the unemployed with the cost of travel; [137058] in the labour law to protect the rights of workers in areas such as workplace safety, wages, benefits, and (2) what assessment his Department has made of the harassment and unfair treatment of women. Following needs of jobseekers in relation to the costs of bus this study, the national minimum wage for garment travel. [137060] workers was increased in 2011. We are aware of other reports that have raised similar issues. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport (DfT) has been working with the Department for Work and Consultants Pensions and Jobcentre Plus to help jobseekers back into work. Jobcentre Plus already offers a range of Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for transport support, such as covering the cost of a jobseeker’s International Development what proportion of her essential transport - for example, travel to training and Department’s spending on suppliers is spent on private interviews. consultants. [137369] 645W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 646W

Justine Greening: The Department for International make following her Department’s internal review of Development uses a wide range of organisations to the use of private consultants announced in September deliver programmes including non-governmental 2012. [136947] organisations, multilaterals and other suppliers. Justine Greening: In November I met with DFID’s Ecuador largest suppliers to start a process of working with them individually and collectively to get better value for Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for money. That work is ongoing. International Development for what purpose the loan Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for from the Government to Ecuador issued in 1988 was International Development what proportion of applied and used for; what the value of this loan was; supplier contracts to her Department had a monetary and whether the granting of this loan was dependent value of more than £1 million in the most recent period on the subsequent purchase of goods or services for which figures are available. [137140] manufactured in part, or wholly, in the UK. [136803] Justine Greening: Contracts with a value of more Mr Duncan: Records from this time are held by the than £1 million made up 95% of the value of all National Archives and cannot be obtained in time for contracts awarded by Procurement Group in 2011-12. the deadline to this question. The National Archive website contains an item reference FO 93/31/35 entitled Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for ’Exchange of Notes on Certain Commercial Debts The International Development what the minimum value is United Kingdom/Ecuador Debt Agreement (no. 3) (1988) at which the granting of a supplier contract by a Place of Signing: London’. DFID has requested this department requires a competitive tendering process. record to be retrieved. [137250] Palestine Media Watch Justine Greening: Competitive quotes are required for all purchases over £1,000 unless otherwise agreed. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for St Helena International Development whether her Department has made any assessment of the work of Palestinian Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Media Watch. [137043] International Development what discussions she has had with the government of the island of St Helena Mr Duncan: Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) publish about providing the island with broadband internet; reports on a number of issues that are important to and if she will make a statement. [136683] DFID. We consider the issues raised seriously, however we do not normally carry out comprehensive assessments Mr Duncan: DFID officials are in regular contact of the work of individual lobby groups and have not with the St Helena Government about the proposed done so in this case. fibre-optic cable link that would bring broadband to the island. Palestinians The UK Government recognises that a fibre-optic cable connection could bring faster, more reliable global Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for broadband connectivity to St Helena, which could have International Development what assessment she has a positive impact on economic development on the made of whether UK aid provided to the Palestinian island in addition to the airport investment. Authority is being used to pay the salaries of prisoners. If the developer can secure the private sector finance [137390] to proceed with the main line of the cable connecting South Africa and Brazil, then a full economic assessment Mr Duncan: UK assistance to the Palestinian Authority would be needed to consider the extent of the economic (PA) supports a successful middle east peace process by and social benefits that linking St Helena to this line helping build Palestinian institutions and promoting could bring. DFID would consider this evidence against economic growth, so that any future state will be stable, the availability of funds and other bids for our resources. prosperous, well-run, and an effective partner for peace with Israel. This is provided subject to a number of safeguards. As requested by the Israeli authorities the PA pays an SCOTLAND allowance to cover the cost of food and clothing for Energy Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. The PA also provides social welfare payments to the families of prisoners. We Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for support the provision of welfare payments to innocent Scotland when he last discussed energy charges for the families who have lost a breadwinner, and we continue third sector with the representatives of the six largest to encourage the PA at the highest levels to ensure that energy providers. [136980] these payments are transparent, needs-based and affordable. David Mundell: Scotland Office Ministers have regular Procurement meetings with representatives of the six largest energy providers during which energy charges are discussed. At Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the end of this month the Secretary of State for Scotland, International Development what changes her the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Department’s top 12 outside suppliers have pledged to Selkirk (Michael Moore), will host the latest in a series 647W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 648W of fuel poverty summits bringing together consumer gas sector, as well as other Scottish businesses. He will groups, energy suppliers, Ofgem, DECC and the Scottish also be joined by and support a Glasgow city council Government. sponsored trade mission to promote links and business opportunities between Glasgow and Brazil. Income Tax

Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for WALES Scotland pursuant to his answer of 9 January 2012, Olympic Games 2012 Official Report, column 285W, on income tax personal allowance, what estimate he has made of the total value Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales that will be added to the Scottish economy as a result (1) what recent discussions he has had with the First of the planned change to the income tax personal Minister in the Welsh Government on the legacy in allowance. [137206] Wales of the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics; and if he will make a statement; [136645] Michael Moore: The 2012 autumn statement announced (2) what recent discussions he has had with the that from 1 April 2013, the personal allowance will rise Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the by a further £235 to £9,440. This is additional to the legacy in Wales of the London 2012 Olympics and £1,100 increase previously announced at Budget 2012. Paralympics; and if he will make a statement. [136646] This further increase will benefit 2.2 million people in Scotland by an average of £47, and will lift an additional Mr David Jones: The Wales Office has been in 21,000 people out of income tax entirely. correspondence with both the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my The increase to the personal allowance will reduce right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria income tax for low and middle income individuals in Miller), about the role the Welsh Government can play Scotland, improving incentives to enter employment in developing a lasting Olympics legacy in Wales. and increasing real household disposable incomes. This may feed through to higher consumption or savings in The legacy programme offers benefits to the whole of the household sector. Overall employment outcomes in the UK and provides an excellent opportunity to capitalise Scotland will also depend on other measures announced on the momentum and success of the events in Cardiff relating to personal tax and national insurance and across Wales. contributions, as well as aggregate labour demand and the performance of the wider economy. HOME DEPARTMENT Official Visits Civil Disorder

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Scotland how many official visits within Scotland were Home Department how many applications for made by (a) Ministers, (b) staff and (c) special compensation under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 advisers of his Department in each of the last 12 were made following the public disorder in 2011; how months; and what the cost to the public purse was of many (a) were accepted in full, (b) were accepted in each such visit. [137190] part, (c) were refused and (d) are still outstanding. [137057] David Mundell: Information on meetings that the Damian Green: Decisions and payments on Riot Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member (Damages) Act 1886 claims are entirely the responsibility for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), of Offices of Police and Crime Commissioners (PCCs). special advisers and I have had with external organisations The Government have worked very closely with various is published on the Scotland Office website, in accordance parties to ensure that victims are fully compensated. As with this Government’s commitment to transparency, of early January, the summary information received at: from Offices of Police and Crime Commissioners show http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/14542.html the vast majority of people affected have received Records up to June 2012 are published and the compensation. information for the rest of 2012 will be published in due Uninsured: course. PCCs currently have only 13 uninsured cases outstanding The Scotland Office does not centrally record the of the 577 cases they originally received from the Home accumulative cost associated with each individual visit. Office bureau and direct from claimants (around 2%). 711 new claims were received from individuals who Visits Abroad were originally insured and now their insurance company has repudiated their claim for reasons such as under Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for insurance. 30 of these cases remain ongoing (about 4%). Scotland what overseas visits he plans to make in the Insured: next 12 months. [137192] Over 98% of household property damage claims have David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland, been settled by their insurers. the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and 93% of small to medium size businesses have received Selkirk (Michael Moore), plans to visit Brazil in March settlement or interim payments from insurers. to participate in a major UKTI-organised Energy Showcase 99% of large commercial claims have received settlement where he will promote the work of the Scottish oil and or interim payments from insurers. 649W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 650W

PCC payments to Insurers: convicted of a criminal offence. Under the Act, such Of the 3,925 claims from insurance companies for indefinite retention will apply only to adults convicted reimbursement of costs 377 remain (around 10% of of a recordable offence. Those charged with specified original total). serious offences (’qualifying offences’), but not convicted, may have their DNA profiles and fingerprints retained Communications Data Bill (Draft) for three years. Those arrested for qualifying offences but not charged or convicted may have their DNA Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the profiles and fingerprints retained for three years, but Home Department pursuant to the answer of only with the agreement of the Biometric Commissioner. 7 January 2013, Official Report, column 16W, on Those under 18 convicted only for a first minor offence Communications Data Bill: draft, whether her will have their DNA profiles and fingerprints retained Department has produced an impact assessment of the for five years, plus the length of any custodial sentence draft Communications Data Bill for businesses based given. in the UK and for investment in the UK; and if she will I made a written ministerial statement, published on make a statement. [136659] 13 December 2012, Official Report, columns 57-58WS, providing details of the timetable for implementation of James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 January 2013]: this Act, under which the vast majority of innocent An impact assessment for the draft Communications people’s DNA and fingerprints will be deleted by September Data Bill was published on the Home Office website on and legislative commencement will take place no later 14 June 2012 to coincide with publication of the draft than October. Bill. The Home Office will complete a new impact assessment to accompany a redrafted Bill, in line with Drugs: Misuse the recommendation from the Joint Committee that completed scrutiny on the draft Bill. If the Bill is Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for the approved by Parliament, the Government will keep the Home Department (1) if she will assess the impact on business of any new obligations under review. classification that Sativex would be given under her Department’s drug classification scheme; and if she Deportation will make a statement; [136917] (2) what contracts the Government holds with GW Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Pharmaceuticals; and if she will make a statement; Home Department (1) pursuant to the answer of 19 [136921] December 2012, Official Report, column 778W, on immigration controls, how many foreign nationals (3) what comparative assessment her Department subject to deportation orders visas to remain in the UK has made of the level of health risk posed by Sativex have expired; [136054] and herbal cannabis. [137074] (2) how many foreign nationals subject to a Mr Jeremy Browne: ‘Sativex’ is a medicinal product deportation order have criminal convictions for derived from cannabis, a controlled Class B Schedule 1 offences committed in the UK; [136055] drug, and is subject to the same control restrictions (3) what the nationality is of each of the foreign under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. nationals subject to a deportation order. [136056] The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD) has published advice to Government on cannabis and, Mr Harper: Under the 1971 Immigration Act a for the purposes of scheduling under the Misuse of deportation order invalidates any leave to enter or remain Drugs Regulations 2001 (as amended), Sativex. This in the UK given to an individual before an order is advice can be found at: made or while it is in force. www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-public-bodies/acmd/ All foreign national offenders subject to a deportation The Government have accepted the ACMD’s advice order have criminal convictions in the UK. Since 2006, that Sativex has a low misuse potential and should be the UK Border Agency has removed over 28,000 foreign re-scheduled to Schedule 4 of the 2001 Regulations. national offenders. It is our policy not to disclose the countries to which we remove or deport foreign national The Home Office and its agencies do not hold any offenders as this could jeopardise our continuing ability contracts with GW Pharmaceuticals. I am unable to to do so. comment on contractual arrangements between other Departments and third parties. DNA and Fingerprints: Databases Entry Clearances David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what her policy is on the retention Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the of DNA and fingerprints taken from innocent people. Home Department how many (a) applications were [136165] made and (b) grants of family visas were awarded in respect of the category of (i) child (probationary James Brokenshire: The Government wants to protect period), (ii) child (indefinite leave to enter), (iii) partner privacy and human rights while maintaining effective (probationary period), (iv) partner (indefinite leave to databases that protect the public and reduce crime. We enter) and (v) other adult and elderly dependants have therefore passed legislation under the Protection (indefinite leave to enter) between 1 January and of Freedoms Act 2012 to end the indefinite retention of 30 June 2012; and what the aggregate rate of grant of DNA profiles and fingerprints taken from people never applications was in that period. [136307] 651W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 652W

Mr Harper: Information on applications and entry Despatch year Processing time calendar days clearance visas issued for 2012 on a quarterly basis, is planned to be published on 28 February 2013, as part of 2010 30 the Home Office’s quarterly Immigration Statistics release. 2011 42 The figures for family visas provided in response to 2012 83 this question and appearing in the following tables are The number of cases despatched after four weeks is from the latest available published statistics. shown in the following table: Family route entry clearance visa applications, resolution1 and issue, 2011 Proportion Despatch year Number of cases issued Family route Applications Resolved Issued (percentage) 2010 25,338 2011 57,364 Partner 36,205 40,499 33,480 83 2012 63,704 Partner (for 1,559 1,505 1,324 88 settlement)2 As of 9 January 2013 a total of 6,546 tier 1 applications Child3 113 110 97 88 have been waiting more than four weeks for a decision. Child (for 6,835 7,045 4,584 65 settlement)2 This is outside our service standard to decide 90% of Other4 5,151 5,709 4,307 75 applications within four weeks of the applicant attending Other (for 2,653 2,743 1,885 69 a biometric appointment. A plan is in place to address settlement)2,5 this by the end of March 2013. Total 52,516 57,611 45,677 79 All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject Family route entry clearance visas issued, 2012 Q1 and Q2 to change. 2012 Family route Q1 Q2 Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Partner 8,022 7,995 Partner (for 318 307 2 Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the settlement) Home Department what proportion of the applicants Child3 19 11 2 who applied for sponsor status between 1 July and Child (for settlement) 1,108 1,118 30 September 2012 have had a decision made on their Other4 922 871 application by points-based system tier. [134380] Other (for 499 413 settlement)2,5 Total 10,888 10,715 Mr Harper [holding answer 18 December 2012]: The 1 The information provided relates to applications received and cases resolved data requested is not held in a format compatible with in the calendar year 2011. Some applications received may be resolved in a National Statistics protocols, or produced as part of the subsequent year. UK Border Agency’s standard reports. However the 2 Relates to visas issued for Indefinite Leave to Enter the United Kingdom. 3 Does not include children of a parent given limited leave to enter or remain UK Border Agency publishes immigration statistics on in the UK for a probationary period. a quarterly and annual basis, a copy of which can be 4 Relates to those given Limited Leave to Enter as pre-existing family members found in the Library of the House. of those recognised as Refugees or afforded Humanitarian Protection. 5 Relates to those dependants who are not partners or children, such as adult relatives and Ghurkhas and their dependants. Elderly adult dependent Extradition relatives cannot be separately identified from published entry clearance figures. Note: Figures for visa applications are published on annual basis in the release ‘Immigration Statistics’. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Source: State for the Home Department if she will bring Immigration Statistics, July to September 2012 forward proposals for people charged with having The latest Home Office immigration statistics on committed crimes in other countries first to have entry clearance visas are published in the release evidence of such presented to UK courts before being Immigration Statistics July to September 2012, which is extradited; and if she will make a statement. [137393] available from the Library of the House and on the Department’s website at: Mr Harper: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- to the reintroduction of a prima facie evidential requirement statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ before a person can be extradited from the UK. Prima Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the facie evidence is defined as evidence which would be Home Department (1) how many people applying for a sufficient to warrant a person’s trial if the conduct for Tier 1 visa in the UK are currently waiting more than which extradition is sought had taken place in the UK. four weeks for a decision on their application to be Currently, the UK requires prima facie evidence from 69 of our extradition partners. made; [136801] (2) what the average waiting time for Tier 1 visa As the Secretary of State for the Home Department, applications made inside the UK was in (a) 2010, (b) my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead 2011 and (c) 2012; and how many such people waited (Mrs May), made clear to the House on 16 October more than four weeks for a decision on their 2012, Official Report, columns 164-80, the Government has no plans to reintroduce the prima facie evidence test application. [136804] for other countries where it is not currently required. Mr Harper: The following table gives the average However, the Government agrees with the Baker review processing time for tier 1 cases despatched each year that the designation of Part 2 countries under the between January 2010 and December 2012. Extradition Act 2003 be periodically reviewed to take 653W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 654W into account adverse extradition decisions of courts 12 months; how many have been deported; and how responsible for monitoring compliance with international many cases relating to such individuals have been human rights standards. referred to the Crown Prosecution Service. [136566] Police Stations: Croydon James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 January 2013]: The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), Home Department what recent discussions she has had reports to Parliament on the exercise of her powers on the closure or sale of police station buildings in under the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Croydon North since May 2010; and what the outcome Act 2011 on a quarterly basis and I refer the hon. Lady was of any such discussions. [136540] to the statements dated 26 March 2012, Official Report, column 94WS, 19 June 2012, Official Report, column Damian Green: Decisions about the most effective 56WS, 7 September 2012, Official Report, column 39WS, use of available resources, including the number and and 6 December 2012, Official Report, column 80WS, operating hours of police stations and any disposal of which confirm the number of individuals charged with such premises, are matters for the Mayor’s Office for breaching their TPIM measures during the period from Policing and Crime and the Commissioner of the 15 December 2011 to 30 November 2012. Metropolitan Police. These statements give as much information as can be It is important not to confuse buildings with the provided about breaches of TPIMs and, where applicable, availability and accessibility of the police. There are action taken. The information given is limited for national many good examples of forces doing far more with security reasons and in order to avoid prejudicing any their money by finding new forms of public contact. law enforcement interests. These include the new non-emergency number, 101, the With the exception of Ibrahim Magag, all of the internet, or contact in places such as supermarket surgeries, individuals who have ever been subject to a TPIM where thousands of people, rather than the very few notice are also subject to a court-imposed anonymity who may come in to a police station, can meet the order. police. This prevents the publication of information that, either on its own or when read in conjunction with Police: Equipment other information in the public domain, would identify, or would tend to identify, an individual as being subject Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the to a TPIM notice. This includes information on the Home Department what information she holds on how number of individuals subject to a TPIM notice who much is spent on police equipment budgets. [136639] have been charged with a criminal offence in the UK (other than breach of a TPIM notice) or deported while Damian Green: Information about police expenditure subject to a TPIM notice. on equipment is available on the website of the Chartered For national security reasons and in order to avoid Institute of Public Finance Accountants at: prejudicing any law enforcement interests, we cannot www.cipfastats.net comment on any potential future criminal action against TPIM subjects or on how many cases have been referred Police: Training to the Crown Prosecution Service. We can confirm that the Secretary of State consulted with the chief officer of Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the the relevant police force, who in turn consulted with the Home Department which formal training received by a relevant prosecuting authority, before imposing each police officer is also run for the benefit of both fire and TPIM notice in force. This is in accordance with the ambulance officers. [136794] requirements in section 10 of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. I can also confirm Damian Green [holding answer 14 January 2013]: that the subjects’ conduct is kept under review, with a Police training is a matter for the College of Policing view to a prosecution of the individual for an offence and individual police forces to determine. This may relating to terrorism, in accordance with these requirements. include training with other emergency services and As set out in the reports to Parliament, nine of the 10 responders where appropriate. individuals who have been made subject to a TPIM notice have been British Citizens. I can confirm deportation Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures is considered as an option for all foreign nationals subject to a TPIM. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) on how many occasions the conditions of a terrorism prevention and investigation FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE measure were breached in the last 12 months; and in how many such cases the Crown Prosecution Service Afghanistan has been consulted about bringing a prosecution under section 23 of the Terrorism Prevention and Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he Investigation Measures Act 2011; [136565] has made in reducing corruption within the Afghan (2) how many individuals subject to a terrorism Government. [136237] prevention and investigation measure have been charged with a criminal offence in the UK since Alistair Burt: Corruption remains an endemic problem introduction of the measures; how many such in Afghan society. We continue to support the Afghan individuals she expects to be charged in the next Government’s efforts to tackle the problem, for example 655W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 656W by strengthening the judicial system, developing the The Regional Aid Guidelines, under which the Assisted capacity of the Ministry of the Interior to investigate Areas Map is drawn, were published in draft by the cases of corruption within the police force and to build European Commission on 14 January 2013 and are due sustainable accountability mechanisms. We have supported to be finalised by June 2013. These will determine key the Ministry in introducing anti-corruption measures, rules for preparing Assisted Areas Maps, including such as a Crime-Stoppers helpline and mobile anti- specifying maximum population coverage for each member corruption teams, as well as providing expertise on state. BIS has conducted some preparatory work and Afghan Government management of public finances. consultation on changes to the Assisted Areas shown We also provide training and logistical support to the on the UK’s 2014-20 Map will follow the release of the Major Crimes Task Force (an investigative unit focusing Commission’s finalised Guidelines. on serious cases of corruption, organised crime and kidnapping) and we played a critical role in supporting Bahrain the establishment of the Anti-Corruption Tribunal in Kabul, a court dedicated to hearing corruption cases. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign While progress is being made, it will require a long-term and Commonwealth Affairs what recent effort and measurable progress will take time. representations the UK Government has made to the Bahraini (a) Government and (b) authorities Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for concerning human rights guarantees for political Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he activists in prison in Bahrain. [136560] has made on reducing non-security-related crime in Afghanistan. [136238] Alistair Burt: We have repeatedly made clear to the Bahraini Government that the civil rights of peaceful Alistair Burt: By strengthening the judicial system, opposition figures, the legitimate exercise of freedom of we continue to work with the Afghan Government to expression and peaceful assembly must be respected. increase their capacity to deal effectively with crime, for As a close friend and ally, the UK has consistently example through police and judiciary training and encouraged the Government to take further steps to mentoring, courts and prison funding. A key example is implement promised reforms and take the measures the Criminal Justice Task Force (CJTF), a multi- necessary to aid reconciliation. departmental Afghan detention, investigation, prosecution Most recently the Secretary of State for Foreign and and judicial team, which the UK has helped to establish Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member to target the narcotics trade. The CJTF has secured for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), visited Bahrain on over 1,000 convictions for narcotics offences since it was 7-8 December, meeting with representatives of the Bahraini established in 2005. In 2010-11, the CJTF convicted 621 Government to continue such discussions. people of drugs trafficking offences. We are also working to strengthen links to statutory British Indian Ocean Territory justice systems, providing legal education and developing civil groups to provide better monitoring and oversight, to make community-based justice system, more accountable. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made in implementing the commitment in the Conservative Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for manifesto 2010 to bring about a just settlement for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his people wishing to return to the Chagos Islands. assessment is of the ability of the Afghan economy to [137366] support its security forces from 2015 onwards. [136241] Mark Simmonds: Now that the litigation in the European Alistair Burt: The International Community has pledged Court of Human Rights is concluded, the Government $4.1 billion from 2015 to fund the Afghan National will take stock of our policy towards the resettlement of Security Forces in the critical years after transition, to the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), as we have which Afghanistan will initially contribute $500 million. always said we would. There are fundamental difficulties In the longer term, UK and international partners are with resettlement in BIOT, but we will be as positive as working with the Afghan Government to encourage possible in our engagement with Chagossian groups sustainable economic growth so that it can meet its and all interested parties. security and development expenditure. At the Tokyo Conference, the Afghan Government set out a strong Sir Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for programme of financial and economic reforms designed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many of the to maintain growth and reduce dependence on donor islands in the British Indian Ocean Territory (a) are funding. habitable, (b) were inhabited, (c) are inhabited and (d) are suitable for settlement. [137408] Assisted Areas Mark Simmonds: Only one island in the British Indian Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Ocean Territory is habitable and is currently inhabited— Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has Diego Garcia. been made on negotiations on adjustments to Assisted There were five island groups that were inhabited Areas Maps. [137347] from at least 1,830: Diego Garcia, Peros Banhos, Salomon, Eagle and Egmont. Nelson Island, the Three Brothers, Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Danger Island, Sea Cow Island were never inhabited, of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. though all were visited for coconuts or turtles. 657W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 658W

In April 2000 the British Government commissioned Nuclear Disarmament a study to assess to what extent it would be feasible for the outer islands to be re-inhabited. The report concluded Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign resettlement was not feasible. While the short-term and Commonwealth Affairs what expert-level meetings habitation for limited numbers on a subsistence basis have been hosted by the UK in the last year to share could be possible, the report emphasised that any long-term lessons from UK-led work on verification of nuclear resettlement would be precarious and costly. The outer warhead dismantlement; where the meetings were held; islands, which have been uninhabited for 40 years, lack at what cost; which countries were represented at each all basic facilities and infrastructure. such meeting; and if he will publish a summary of the outcomes of each meeting. [137026] British Nationals Abroad Alistair Burt: The UK has hosted two expert-level Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for meetings in the last year to share findings from the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is ongoing UK-Norway Initiative. The first, held in London taking to protect the rights of UK citizens abroad on 4 April 2012, was attended by officials from the ‘P5’ nuclear weapon states: UK, China, France, Russia and when faced with criminal convictions. [136604] US. The total cost of the event was £9,137.10. UK scientists and technical experts shared the outcomes Mark Simmonds: The steps that the Foreign and and lessons from the UK-Norway Initiative and P5 Commonwealth Office takes to protect the rights of experts offered their perspectives. British nationals abroad when faced with criminal convictions are defined by our consular assistance policy, The second, held in Vienna in May 2012 as a side which can be found at: event to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Preparatory Committee meeting, was attended by around www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ 100 experts from NPT States Parties, NGOs and academia. attachment_data/file/35519/support-for-british-nationals- abroad.pdf The cost to the UK of holding this event was £484.51. The joint presentation by technical experts from the and based on internationally recognised standards, as UK and Norway is available on the Government website: well as the laws and legal process of the country concerned. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-norway- initiative-on-nuclear-warhead-dismantlement-verification--2 Marriage Pakistan

Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the (a) discussions he has had with his foreign counterparts on nature and (b) monetary value was of counter- child marriage. [136603] narcotics assistance given by his Department to the Government of Pakistan in each of the last six Mark Simmonds: Foreign and Commonwealth Office financial years; and what expenditure in each category Ministers regularly promote UK objectives on forced of assistance is planned in the (i) current and (ii) next marriage, which often affects very young victims. Most financial year. [136280] recently, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member Alistair Burt: We provide counter narcotics assistance for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), raised the to a range of international partners, including Pakistan. issue of forced marriage with the High Commissioner We do so to tackle the international drugs trade and of Pakistan. The Forced Marriage Unit has also established minimise the threat it poses to the UK. However, it is an International Partnership Board to share best practice our policy not to disclose details of that work where it on handling forced marriage cases with London embassies. relates to national security and protection of operational The Department for International Development leads information, as to do so may reduce its effectiveness. for the Government on the issue of early and forced marriage overseas and provides support for raising the Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for age of marriage through its programmes. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department has taken in providing financial support Middle East to the Pakistani anti-narcotics police to ensure that no such support contributes to attempts by the authorities in that country to impose capital punishment on those Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for arrested for drugs offences. [136281] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information his Department holds on the state of progress with the Alistair Burt: We take human rights very seriously US-funded review of Palestinian and Israeli textbooks; and strongly oppose the use of the death penalty in all and when a report on this matter is expected. [137392] circumstances, including for drugs offences. The Government published Overseas Security and Justice Alistair Burt: Along with officials at the Department Assistance (OSJA) guidance in 2011, which provides for International Development, Foreign and clear guidance to officials and law enforcement officers Commonwealth Office officials are closely monitoring to help them identify human rights risks. Under OSJA progress on the report into the content of Palestinian guidance, where human rights risks are identified, the and Israeli school textbooks. We understand that the Government seeks to mitigate risks by a range of methods. report is now likely to be published in early spring. For instance we can seek assurances that UK co-operation 659W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 660W will not lead to torture or prosecutions that result in the Sri Lanka death penalty, and have a clear exit strategy if the assurances are not met. This ensures that any assistance Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for we provide supports our values and is consistent with Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent our international obligations, including on capital discussions he has had with his Sri Lankan counterpart punishment. on the (a) efficacy of criminal justice and (b) rule of law in that country. [136336] Palestinians Alistair Burt: The British Government has had numerous Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for meetings at official level with the Sri Lankan Government Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent about our human rights concerns, which include the representations the Consulate General in Jerusalem has rule of law and aspects of the efficacy of the criminal made to the Palestinian Authority with regard to the justice system. Our high commissioner attended a meeting glorification of terrorists by members of the with the Sri Lankan External Affairs Minister Peiris Palestinian Authority. [137391] last month on issues relating to the rule of law. The UK will continue to take every opportunity, including my Alistair Burt: Our Consul-General in Jerusalem has visit to Sri Lanka in the coming weeks, to raise concerns made clear to senior members of the Palestinian Authority on human rights directly to the Government of Sri (PA) our opposition to official PA events that welcome Lanka. the return to the Occupied Palestinian Territories of The UK, in conjunction with the European Union individuals convicted of terrorist charges by Israel. Heads of Mission, released a statement on 5 December, Officials at the British Consulate-General have also expressing our concern about recent developments in raised the issue of positive portrayal of terrorist activity Sri Lanka surrounding the rule of law and individual with the Government media centre on 13 December freedoms. We continue to press the Sri Lankan Government and with senior PA officials on 10 January. to ensure the protection of the independence of the judiciary and the fundamental rights of all citizens. The Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for statement can be found here: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/sri_lanka/documents/ answer of 10 December 2012, Official Report, column press_corner/20121205_en.pdf 3W, on Palestinians, what specific examples of incitement and hatred were raised by the Consulate Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for General in Jerusalem with the Head of News at Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Palestine TV. [137426] he has made of the Government of Sri Lanka’s commitment to the Commonwealth’s Latimer House Alistair Burt: Officials at the British Consulate General Principles. [136337] in Jerusalem raised concerns about material aired on Palestine TV in February 2012 on the anniversary of Alistair Burt: The British Government looks to Sri the establishment of the Democratic Front of Liberation Lanka, as with al! Commonwealth members, to of Palestine which appeared to present positive images demonstrate its commitment to, upholding all of terrorist acts carried out by members of that organisation. Commonwealth values including the Latimer House The Consulate General outlined the UK’s firm opposition Principles. The Commonwealth’s Latimer House Principles to the advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred govern the relationship between the three branches of that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility government. All member states of the Commonwealth or violence. The Head of the News Department said have committed themselves to upholding the Latimer that Palestine TV took the issue of incitement very House Principles. This ensures that citizens’ faith and seriously and had strict instructions from the highest confidence in democratic culture are assured and the authorities to prevent the broadcasting of any materials rule of law is maintained. that promotes incitement or hatred. The UK, in conjunction with the European Union Heads of Mission, released a statement on 5 December, Sick Leave expressing our concern about recent developments in Sri Lanka surrounding the rule of law and individual Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for freedoms. We continue to press the Sri Lankan Government Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the to ensure the protection of the independence of the answer of 13 December 2012, Official Report, column judiciary and the fundamental rights of all citizens. The 473W, on sick leave, if he will make an assessment of statement can be found here: the contribution mindfulness-based practice can make http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/sri_lanka/documents/ to reducing workplace stress and staff absences in his press_corner/20121205_en.pdf Department. [136207] The Commonwealth Secretary-General, Kamalesh Sharma, released a statement on 15 November 2012 Alistair Burt: We operate an occupational stress policy which expressed concern about the recent move by the based on the Health and Safety executive management Parliament of Sri Lanka to impeach the country’s Chief standards. We have no plans at present to conduct a Justice, Dr Shirani Bandaranayake. The Secretary-General formal assessment of mindfulness-based practice but said the preservation of the rule of law and independence our response to work-related stress is kept under regular of the judiciary is key to the healthy functioning of a review. democracy. 661W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 662W

United Arab Emirates with other EU member states, for full implementation of electoral reform and the restoration of internationally Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for accepted human rights standards in Zimbabwe. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the effect of laws in the United Arab Emirates on UK citizens that live in or visit that TREASURY country. [137015] Car Tax Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Travel Advice provides guidance for UK citizens on Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the local laws and customs in the United Arab Emirates. We Exchequer what timetable he has set for the advise that local laws and customs are often very different development of his proposals on reforms to vehicle to those in the UK and advise travellers to familiarise excise duty. [136686] themselves with, and respect, them. Our travel advice is updated regularly. Sajid Javid: The Government have made no formal proposals for changes to vehicle excise duty. Zimbabwe The Government announced in Budget 2012 that they will consider whether to reform vehicle excise duty Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign over the medium term to ensure all motorists continue and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he to make a fair contribution to the sustainability of the has had with the South African Government on public finances, to reflect continuing improvements in progress towards elections in Zimbabwe. [137204] vehicle fuel efficiency, and seek the views of motoring groups on this issue. Updates on the Government’s tax Mark Simmonds: South Africa continues to play a policy intentions are provided in the usual way through crucial role in seeking a political solution in Zimbabwe. the annual Budget process. We welcome President Zuma of South Africa’s ongoing efforts to work with all three parties to Zimbabwe’s Child Benefit power-sharing government to create the conditions for credible and properly monitored elections. This was Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer most recently demonstrated at the Southern Africa what estimate he has made of the effect of changes to Development Community (SADC) Extraordinary Troika higher income child benefit on the take-up of national Summit in Tanzania. insurance credits; and if he will make a statement. During my visit to Pretoria in November 2012, I [135994] conveyed our firm support to South Africa in its diplomatic efforts on Zimbabwe. I plan to visit again soon and I Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs estimates that maintain regular contact with my counterparts in the there will be no impact on the take-up of national South African Government on this and a range of other insurance credits following the introduction of the high issues. income child benefit charge. Our high commission in Pretoria also maintains regular Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Chancellor of the dialogue with the South African Government on the Exchequer how many HM Revenue and Customs staff situation in Zimbabwe. have been seconded to other Government departments to assist with the implementation of changes to child Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign benefit. [136527] and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the report by Human Rights Watch, Race Mr Gauke: No HM Revenue and Customs staff have Against Time: The Need for Legal and Institutional been seconded to other Government Departments to Reforms Ahead of Zimbabwe’s Elections, published in assist with the implementation of the high income child January 2013. [137205] benefit charge. Child benefit and income tax (under which the high Mark Simmonds: I share the concerns raised in the income child benefit charge falls) are both administered Human Rights Watch’s (HRW) report on the slow by HM Revenue and Customs. implementation of reforms in Zimbabwe and prospects of an early election without institutional and electoral Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Chancellor of the reforms taking place. HRW acknowledge there has been Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost of progress in Zimbabwe—for example in October 2012 implementing planned Government changes to child the Human Rights Commission Act was passed into benefit. [136528] law and the Second All Stakeholders Conference took place peacefully. But there is more work to be done by Mr Gauke: The initial estimates of the administrative the Government of Zimbabwe to address its human costs of the high income child benefit charge were rights record and ensure it implements essential reforms published in the Tax Information and Impact Note at to prevent politically motivated violence and intimidation. Budget 2012: I agree that the work of the Southern Africa www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/tiin-0620.pdf Development Community (SADC) in facilitating the A further estimate of the staffing costs was provided in reform process has been key to achieving progress thus response to parliamentary question 128154 on 3 December far, and that their ongoing engagement will be important 2012, Official Report, column 593W: if free, fair and credible elections are to happen. We will http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ continue to call regularly, both bilaterally and in partnership cmhansrd/cm121203/text/121203w0001.htm 663W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 664W

The estimate of costs incurred to date is approximately Corporation Tax half the initially expected cost of the first phase of the project. Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to publish the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Chancellor of the amount of corporation tax paid by each FTSE-100 Exchequer how many households that receive child listed company in each of the last 10 years. [137212] benefit in Livingston constituency and where one parent earns between £50,000 and £60,000 will have Mr Gauke: Taxpayer confidentiality prevents HMRC their child benefit reduced on a sliding scale under his from disclosing such details. new child benefit rules; and how many households in EU Law that constituency where one parent is earning over £60,000 will lose that benefit completely. [136555] Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) which EU directives his Department transposed in Mr Gauke: Information on the number of individuals (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date; which EU directives his affected by the high income child benefit charge is not Department expects to transpose in (i) 2013 and (ii) the available on a constituency basis. next two years; and what estimate he has made of the An individual will not have their child benefit reduced cost of each such directive to the (A) public purse and or removed by the high income child benefit charge. (B) private sector; [133715] Instead a tax charge will apply to the partner with the (2) which regulations his Department introduced as higher income above £50,000 where the claimant has a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to not decided to stop payment of child benefit. date; which regulations his Department expects to implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) 2013 and Graeme Morrice: To ask the Chancellor of the (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made Exchequer how many households that receive child of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) public benefit in Livingston constituency where a couple earns purse and (B) private sector. [133716] up to £100,000 will keep their child benefit under his new child benefit rules. [136558] Sajid Javid: The Department does not centrally hold information on the regulations or directives expected to be introduced as a result of EU legislation in future Mr Gauke: Information on income levels is not available years. To gather any such information would come at a at the constituency level. disproportionate cost. It is not standard accounting practice to distinguish Climate Change regulatory costs from overall running costs, whether of EU origin or domestic. There is therefore no pre-existing Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the breakdown of the costs imposed by EU regulations or Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the (a) legislation upon which the Department can draw to economic and (b) public spending consequences for produce an estimate. Any such information that does the UK of the effects of each climate change prediction exist is not held centrally and could be provided only at made in the Stern Report up to (i) 2050 and (ii) 2100. disproportionate cost. [137125] However, in 2011 and 2012 the Department introduced the following regulations and directives as a result of Sajid Javid: The Government has made a comprehensive EU legislation, with the following assessments of cost response to the Stern report since its publication, most (this list was compiled on 3 January 2012 and is not recently through the 2011 Carbon Plan. exhaustive):

Cost

2011 The Electronic Money Regulations 2011 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/99/impacts (SI no. 2011/99) The Libya (Asset-Freezing) Regulations The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. 2011 The Egypt (Asset-Freezing) Regulations The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. 2011 The Tunisia (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2011 The Ivory Coast (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2011 The Democratic People’s Republic of The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Korea (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011 The Iran (Asset-Freezing) Regulations The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. 2011 The Syria (Asset-Freezing) Regulations The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect 2011 The Money Laundering (Amendment) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2011 The Afghanistan (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2011 665W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 666W

Cost

The Libya (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. (Amendment) Regulations 2011 The Syria (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. (Amendment) Regulations 2011 SI 2011/2479 The Recognised Auction Platforms http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/2699/impacts Regulations 2011 The Terrorism Act 2000 And Proceeds http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1534/impacts Of Crime Act 2002 (Business In The Regulated Sector) Order The Financial Services And Markets Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2011/9780111515037/impacts 2000 (Exemption) (Amendment No.2) Order 2011 The Al-Qaida (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2011 The Terrorist Asset-Freezing Etc. Act The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. 2010 (Commencement) Order 2011 The Financial Services And Markets Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/2928/impacts 2000 (Market Abuse) Regulations 2011 The Protection Of The Euro Against http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/2944/impacts Counterfeiting (Amendment) Regulations 2011

2012 Libya Asset-Freezing (Amendment) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2012 The Syria (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) Regs 12 The Iran (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) Regulations 2012 The Syria (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 The Financial Services And Markets Act No impact assessment 2000 (Exemption) (Amendment) Order 2012 The Financial Services (Omnibus 1 No impact assessment Directive) Regulations 2012 The Capital Requirements (Amendment) No impact assessment Regulations 2012 The Iran (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) Regulations Guinea-Bissau (Asset-Freezing) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Regulations 2012 Burma/Myanmar (financial restrictions) The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. (suspension) regulations The Prospectus Regulations 2011 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1668/impacts The Prospectus Regulations http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/prospectus_directive_ia_040412.pdf The Terrorism Act 2000 and Proceeds of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1534/impacts Crime Act 2002 (Business in the Regulated Sector) Order 2012 The Financial Services and Markets Act No impact assessment 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) Order 2012 The Financial Services And Markets Act No impact assessment 2000 (Gibraltar) (Amendment) Order 2012 The Undertakings For Collective No impact assessment Investment In Transferable Securities (Amendment) Regulations 2012 The Terrorism Act 2000 And Proceeds http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1534/impacts Of Crime Act 2002 (Business in the Regulated Sector) (No.2) Order 2012 The Syria (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) (Amendment No.2) Regulations 2012 The Financial Services And Markets Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/2554/impacts 2000 (Short Selling) Regulations 2012 Community Emissions Trading Scheme No impact assessment (Allocation of Allowances for Payment) Regulations 2012 The Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. 2012 667W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 668W

Cost

The Iran (European Union Financial The regulations made set up penalties regimes for European Council regulations which have direct effect. Sanctions) (Amendment No.2) Regulations 2012 The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/2992/impacts Regulations 2012 The European Administration No impact. Co-Operation Taxation) Regulations 2012 The VAT (Amendment) (No 3) http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tiin/vat-invoice-changes.pdf Regulations 2012

Excise Duties: Fuels www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/charities/menu.htm In 2011-12 a total of £1,057 million (provisional Jim Sheridan: To ask the Chancellor of the figure) was repaid to UK charities under Gift Aid. Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of fuel duty as a proportion of the average outgoings of people in Income Tax each quintile of income earners; [136599] (2) if he will consider replacing fuel duty with a Robert Halfon: To ask the Chancellor of the progressive form of tax. [136598] Exchequer what recent assessment his Department has made of the average reduction in income to a working Sajid Javid: At autumn statement 2012, the Government family of the abolition of the 10p rate of income tax. published their distributional analysis of the expected [136525] impact of announced Government measures on household incomes, split by direct taxes, indirect taxes and tax Mr Gauke: No recent estimate has been made. credits and benefits. This document can be found on the Treasury’s website at: Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ as2012_distributional_analysis.htm Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of people in each parliamentary constituency who will be The latest ONS article on the effects of fuel duty on affected by the reduction of the top rate of income tax household disposable income by quintile is available at to 45p on all income above £150,000 per year. [136920] this link: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_241843.pdf Mr Gauke: Data on the number of additional rate tax The Chancellor of the Exchequer keeps all taxes payers at parliamentary constituency levels are not under review. published, as population projections at constituency level would not be reliable or statistically robust. Gift Aid PAYE Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the value of higher rate tax relief unclaimed by individuals Exchequer for what reasons the PAYE real time on charitable donations which were eligible for Gift information system has been unable to match those Aid. [137038] hashes which have been unmatched in the pilot; and what estimate he has made of the proportion of Sajid Javid: There is no such estimate. unmatched hashes accounted for by each reason. Higher (and additional) rate relief, reclaimed by [136011] individuals in respect of Gift Aid donations, has been estimated at £470 million for 2012-13 (preliminary figure). Mr Gauke: HMRC are unable to provide the information Independent research commissioned by HM Revenue requested, at this time; as analysis of hash matching is and Customs in 2009 suggested that approximately 80% ongoing as part of the RTI pilot. of all higher rate relief available on donations was There are a variety of reasons why RTI submissions claimed: may not be matched to a hash cross reference received http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/charity/table10-2.pdf from the payment system. HMRC are unable to provide http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/report91.pdf a breakdown as requested because analysis of hash matching is ongoing as part of the RTI pilot. Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the Hashes received for schemes that have recently joined Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the the RTI system cannot be matched where the PAYE value of Gift Aid unclaimed by charities on charitable scheme is still going through the RTI alignment process. donations. [137039] HMRC have also identified that in some cases hash cross references are being included in RTI submissions Sajid Javid: No such estimate has been made. where the employer is not paying their employees under Amounts of tax repaid to charities in the UK on a BACS service user number. Hash matching is not donations under Gift Aid are published in Table 10.3 on possible in these cases. Therefore, the interpretation of the HM Revenue and Customs website at: any data provided on numbers of hashes matched and 669W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 670W not matched in the RTI pilot is subject to significant Personal Income: Kingston upon Hull uncertainty. These transitional matching patterns are expected. Diana Johnson: To ask the Chancellor of the HMRC is using the RTI pilot to refine its guidance to Exchequer how many people in (a) Hull and (b) Hull employers and software developers about hash matching. North there were with a taxable income greater than (i) £20,000, (ii) £30,000 and (iii) £50,000 in 2011-12. [137048] Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the average time for the alignment Mr Gauke: Reliable projections beyond the 2009-10 process for employer schemes joining the PAYE real out-turn are not available at the parliamentary constituency time information pilot was in each month since it level, due to greater uncertainties in making projections started. [136012] for small geographical areas. Revenue and Customs Mr Gauke: The time taken to complete the alignment process depends on various factors including the size Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the and complexity of the PAYEscheme. The average alignment Exchequer what the data and calculation was time by completed month for all employers in the pilot underlying the statement by the Director of Personal to date is shown as follows: Taxation at HM Revenue and Customs in oral evidence to the Treasury Sub-Committee on 31 October 2012, Average alignment duration HC 673-ii, that the hash-matching accuracy rate was 95 (days) per cent. [136009] April 10 May 11 Mr Gauke: The figure of 95% quoted to the Treasury June 5 Select Committee was from early analysis of the hash- July 5 matching accuracy rate within the real time information August 3 (RTI) pilot relating to payments made to individuals in September 2 October 2012, for PAYE schemes that had completed October 3 the RTI alignment process and could be verified as November 3 paying employees by BACS under a BACS service user December 2 number. Gemma Doyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people worked in the HM Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Revenue and Customs national minimum wage team in Exchequer what his most recent estimate is of the December (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [136694] hash-matching accuracy in the PAYE real time information pilot. [136013] Mr Gauke: I refer the member to the answer of 5 September 2011, Official Report, column 353W. Mr Gauke: The latest information available relates to payments made to individuals in December 2012. The Gemma Doyle: To ask the Chancellor of the hash-matching accuracy rate for PAYE schemes that Exchequer how many people work in the HM Revenue have completed the RTI alignment process and could be and Customs national minimum wage team. [136695] verified as paying employees by BACS under a BACS service user number was 94%. The hash-matching accuracy Mr Gauke: The current number of staff in post in rate for all schemes which submitted hashes in their HMRC’s minimum wage enforcement team (January December 2012 RTI, including schemes still in alignment 2013) is 155. and those including hashes erroneously, was 68%. This Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services latter figure is the result of transitional factors deriving from the RTI pilot. Gemma Doyle: To ask the Chancellor of the There are a variety of reasons why RTI submissions Exchequer (1) how many calls from interns, volunteers, may not be matched to a hash cross reference received voluntary workers or people on work experience the from the payment system. Hashes received for schemes Pay and Work Rights Helpline received in (a) 2009, that have recently joined the RTI system cannot be (b) 2010 and (c) 2011; and how many complaints so matched where the PAYE scheme is still going through reported were investigated; [137004] the RTI alignment process. HMRC have also identified (2) how many enquiries from interns, volunteers, that in some cases hash cross references are being voluntary workers or people on work experience the included in RTI submissions where the employer is not Pay and Work Rights helpline received in 2012; and paying their employees under a BACS service user how many such complaints were investigated. [136693] number. Hash matching is not possible in these cases. Therefore, the interpretation of any data provided on Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available numbers of hashes matched and not matched in the prior to August 2011 as neither the Pay and Work RTI pilot is subject to significant uncertainty. These Rights Helpline (PWRH) or HMRC categorised inquiries transitional matching patterns are expected. or complaints received using these descriptors. Since HMRC is using the RTI pilot to refine its guidance to August 2011, the helpline specifically records inquiries employers and software developers about hash matching. received from workers describing themselves as interns 671W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 672W and a fast-track arrangement between the helpline and Taxation HMRC was introduced for any complaints received about non-payment of minimum wage relating to interns, Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the volunteers, voluntary workers or people on work experience. Exchequer when he intends to publish his The information requested from August 2011 is as Department’s research on dynamic scoring and the follows: broader-economy effects of changes to taxation. [136687] Inquiries received by Complaints fast-tracked to PWRH relating to interns HMRC Mr Gauke: The Department routinely considers the August 2011- 143broader-economy effects of changes to taxation. March 2012 Information on the broader-economy effects of changes April 2012- 322 December 2012 to taxation can be found in the OBR’s Economic and fiscal outlook, at: http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/economic- Social Security Benefits: Greater London and-fiscal-outlook-december-2012/

Rushanara Ali: To ask the Chancellor of the Taxation: Public Houses Exchequer how many families in Bethnal Green and Bow constituency will be affected by the decision to implement a one per cent annual uprating of (a) Greg Mulholland: To ask the Chancellor of the working tax credits and (b) employment and support Exchequer how much unpaid VAT and PAYE owed by operators of public houses was written off by HM allowance. [136610] Revenue and Customs in each of the last five years. Sajid Javid: Forecasts of tax credits claimants are not [136456] produced at constituency level. Based on the HM Revenue and Custom’s published provisional statistics for December Mr Gauke: This information is not available centrally, 2012, accessible from the following: and could be researched only at disproportionate cost. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/prov-geog-stats/cwtc-geog- dec12.xls Welfare Tax Credits there are around 4,800 families in the Bethnal Green and Bow constituency who currently receive working Greg Mulholland: To ask the Chancellor of the tax credit. Exchequer how much tax credit has been claimed by Forecasts of employment and support allowance ESA people running public houses in each of the last five claimants are not produced at constituency level. The years. [136363] caseload forecast for ESA for Great Britain as whole (excluding ESA credits only cases) are: Sajid Javid: This information would be available only at disproportionate cost. Number (million)

2013-14 1.624 2014-15 1.811 DEFENCE 2015-16 1.754 These figures are based on the latest caseload forecasts Afghanistan published on the Department for Work and Pensions website: Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/budget_2012_211212.xls Defence how many posts in Afghanistan were subject (table 1c) to tour lengths of longer than six months for each year since 2005. [131177] Tax Allowances: Research Mr Robathan [holding answer 3 December 2012]: The Ministry of Defence does not hold this information Nicholas Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the centrally for the period before 2010. Exchequer what research his Department has The average number of planned postings subject to undertaken to assess the relative merits of tax tour lengths longer than six months (known as ’continuity incentives in encouraging innovation and investment in postings’) for the first 11 months of 2012 and the research and development. [136517] previous two years is available. Due to changing requirements, the number of postings fluctuated throughout Sajid Javid: An evaluation of research and development these periods so averages for each calendar year have tax credits was published on the HM Revenue and been calculated. These are broken down as follows: Customs website in November 2010 and is available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/report107.pdf 2010 Length of continuity posting Number of personnel1 A report on qualitative research into businesses’ research and development (R&D) decision-making processes was Over 6, to 9, months 20 published on the HM Revenue and Customs website in 9 to 12 months 30 November 2010 and is available at: Greater than 12 months <10 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/report101.pdf 1 To the nearest 10. 673W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 674W

2011 Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence is still in the Length of continuity posting Number of personnel1 process of determining what pieces of equipment and Over 6, to 9, months 20 materiel should be repatriated from Afghanistan and 9 to 12 months 40 what should be left in the country. We are therefore Greater than 12 months <10 currently unable to give accurate figures for the value of 1 To the nearest 10 the equipment that will not be repatriated. 20121 Defence School of Photography Length of continuity posting Number of personnel2

Over 6, to 9, months 30 Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 9 to 12 months 50 what assessment he has made of the potential capacity Greater than 12 months <10 of the Defence School of Photography to provide 1 As at 30 November 2012. services to other government departments. [136932] 2 To the nearest 10. All posts with a duration of greater than six months Mr Robathan: A review will commence shortly to do not have a direct combat role. The posts are a examine the enduring Defence requirement for photography mixture of staff officer, advisory, and command training, the options for meeting this requirement and appointments. The length of the posts have been specifically the capability of the Defence School of Photography to designed to ensure that the UK maintains continuity do so. This review will also allow us to determine how and influence with both international security assistance to use any irreducible spare capacity that may exist. force partners and Government of the Islamic Republic European Defence Agency of Afghanistan at the most appropriate levels. Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for when his Department intends to announce its decision Defence how much the UK spent on its military on the UK’s continuing membership of the European commitments in Afghanistan in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 Defence Agency; and if he will make a statement. and (c) 2012; how much he estimates it will spend in (i) [136785] 2013, (ii) 2014 and (iii) 2015; and how much of this expenditure in each year came, or will come, from his Dr Murrison: Ministers are considering the case for Department’s core budget and how much from UK membership of the European Defence Agency and additional resources provided by the Government to will be making an announcement shortly. pay for operational costs. [136684] Gibraltar Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence establishes the net additional cost of military operations in Afghanistan Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for and these are subsequently funded by the Treasury Defence what steps he is taking to prevent unlawful Special Reserve. The costs are represented, by financial incursions of Spanish vessels in Gibraltar territorial year, in the following table: waters. [136818]

Financial year Outturn/Forecast (£ billion) Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer 2009-10 3.82 I gave on 23 October 2012, Official Report, column 808W. 2010-11 3.78 The Royal Navy patrols and continues to challenge 2011-12 3.46 all unlawful incursions into British Gibraltar Territorial 2012-13 3.8 Waters by Spanish state vessels by issuing appropriate 2013-14 3.8 warnings. This forms an important part of Her Majesty’s 2014-15 3.5 Government’s commitment to uphold our sovereignty against unlawful incursions with a range of proportionate naval, police and diplomatic responses. The figures for 2009-10 to 2011-12 are the actual costs, as published in the MOD annual report and Gulf of Guinea accounts. The figures for 2012-13 to 2014-15 are estimates, as published in the 2010 spending review. Revised figures Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for will be published in the parliamentary supplementary Defence what steps his Department is taking to combat estimate for the relevant year. piracy off the coast of Togo and the Gulf of Guinea. The parliamentary supplementary estimate for 2012-13 [136819] is currently scheduled from publication during the week commencing 11 February 2013. Mr Robathan: The UK Government takes a cross- Expenditure is expected to reduce due to smaller government, holistic regional approach to combating force levels in theatre and operations predominantly in piracy in the Gulf of Guinea. There are a number of a support role with Afghan forces leading most security work streams contributing to tackling threats to maritime operations. security in this region. The MOD has specifically supported this by: Building a Joint Maritime Shared Training Centre (JMSTC) in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Nigeria and Sierra Leone and having a warrant officer based Defence what estimate he has made of the value of there to support the tactical level training it provides. We have equipment that will be left in Afghanistan after the also supplied the JMSTC with rigid-hulled inflatable boats (RHIBS) withdrawal of British troops. [136778] to support their work. 675W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 676W

Financing a maritime liaison officer to support the creation Mr Heath: It would not be appropriate, at this stage, and implementation of an integrated maritime strategy by the to revise the projected strength of the forest carbon sink Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS). due to scientific uncertainty about the future progression Providing a defence adviser in Sierra Leone who has a remit to of the outbreak of Chalara fraxinea, the period over cover maritime security for West Africa. which trees may die and the limited contribution that Contributed to US led project in Nigeria to build radar along ash makes to the UK’s woodland carbon sink. Furthermore, the coast to improve their national information capability. ash constitutes only 4.9% (0.5 MtCO2e) of the forest Places on UK courses like the exclusive economic zone and carbon sink; even if this carbon sink was lost in its single services courses in the UK and sometimes in the region. entirety, the change in the total forest carbon sink In addition, last year, HMS Dauntless and HMS strength would be well within the bounds of uncertainty Edinburgh were involved in tactical training and associated with its estimation, as published in the UK manoeuvring exercises in the region, activity which we Greenhouse Gas Inventory Report. will replicate this year. Community Development: Finance Nuclear Disarmament Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much of what consideration he has given to the proposal made the £50,000 for local and community projects by the British Pugwash Group in December 2012 that announced in April 2012 has been allocated. [136771] the Government should establish an international disarmament institute in the UK. [137027] Richard Benyon: All of the £50,000 for local and community projects has been allocated. Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence asked British Pugwash to undertake a peer review of its programme Dangerous Dogs on the verification of nuclear weapons dismantlement in March 2011. The report was submitted to the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Department in December 2012, and its recommendations for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many are being considered. people were (a) killed or (b) hurt by dog attacks in 2012. [136768] Persian Gulf Mr Heath: There are no central records of the numbers Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for of people killed or hurt in dog attacks. However, Hospital Defence which Royal Navy ships are currently Episode Statistics (the national statistical data warehouse deployed in the Gulf; and on what duties. [137400] of NHS care provision for England) recorded that 6,450 people required admission to hospital during the Mr Robathan: There is typically at least one Royal 2011-12 period for injuries caused by dogs. Navy destroyer or frigate deployed in the Gulf region, supported by a tanker of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State (RFA), plus a four-strong squadron of minehunters for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many with an RFA support ship at short notice, in the Gulf dog attacks in 2012 could not be prosecuted because region. they took place on an owner’s private property. The maritime presence in the Gulf will vary over time [136773] dependent upon the operational requirement and exercises such as those involving the Navy’s high readiness Response Mr Heath: Records of the number of cases that are Force Task Group which might be taking place in the not pursued are not held centrally. However, we estimate region. that there around 250 incidents per annum that take place on private property (where the dog has a right to Maritime forces are inherently flexible and can conduct be) that currently fall outside the scope of the Dangerous multiple tasks simultaneously. Tasks may typically include Dogs Act 1991. The Government has proposed extending supporting maritime security operations including counter the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to all places, including piracy, training, surveying and logistical support. Operations those where the dog has a right to be. may be conducted on a national basis, under European Union or NATO aegis, or as part of a multinational taskforce. Flood Control Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to autumn statement 2012, what estimate he has made of ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the cost of simplifying flood consents and moving them to a single website; and if he will make a Ash Dieback Disease statement. [137069]

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: An initial estimate of simplifying Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will revise flood consents by integrating them into the Environmental the projected strength of the Forest Carbon Sink in the Permitting framework in England was published in July UK’s greenhouse gas inventory through to 2020 to 2012. This assessed costs at £1.3 million and benefits at reflect the impact of Chalara fraxinea. [136704] £3.6 million over 10 years. 677W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 678W

DEFRA and the Environment Agency are investigating South East Asia the rise in the number of Catholic the benefits of setting up a single website to handle religious icons made from ivory in the South East Asia flood defence consent applications but an estimate of region. [134578] the costs of this has not yet been made. Richard Benyon: This Government made a coalition Flood Control: Dredging commitment to press for a ban on ivory sales and we remain focused on ensuring that the existing global Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of ivory ban stays firmly in place. In addition to the State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what general trade prohibition, strict trade controls exist in recent discussions he has had with the Environment relation to international trade in ivory products, including Agency on the dredging of main rivers in order to religious icons, which allow limited trade, for example, reduce the risk of flooding; and if he will make a in worked antique ivory. The UK supports full compliance statement. [136380] with these controls. Domestic production of, and trade in, ivory products is, however, a matter for the countries Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, concerned and is governed by their own national legislation. Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the If there is evidence of illegal trade in religious ivory Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), and I icons made in south east Asia, we would encourage the have recently had a number of discussions with the relevant Parties to the Convention on International Environment Agency on the role of dredging and Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) to take the necessary maintenance of watercourses in flood risk management. action to tackle this. At the current time we have no The Environment Agency spends around £20 million specific plans to raise the production of religious icons per year on dredging, de-silting, removing gravel and made from ivory with the Holy See or counterparts in obstructions from watercourses, along with weed control south east Asia. to clear channels. This maintenance activity is focused Although not specifically focused on religious icons on those areas where it will achieve the greatest benefit made from ivory, international trade in ivory will be in reducing flood risk. discussed at the 16th Conference of Parties to CITES in March 2013. Although we have not yet adopted a final Floods position, we will support trade controls and enforcement action which will reduce elephant poaching and illegal Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for trafficking of ivory. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what dates he has held meetings with the devolved administrations to discuss the issue of flooding. [136218] Livestock: Transport

Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), met with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which ports take the devolved Administrations on 19 November 2012, the live trade in animals; and what the amount of the when flooding was discussed. In addition to this DEFRA trade was conducted in each such port in each of the officials share experience and have regular discussions last five years. [135714] with their counterparts in the devolved administrations. Mr Heath: Sea ports and airports handling the movement Industrial Waste of live animals (i.e. livestock and non-livestock species, both imports and exports) are not generally required to be authorised or approved by the Animal Health and Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA). (The only Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to exceptions in Great Britain are those ports/airports autumn statement 2012, when he expects to review the accepting imports from outside the EU operating as trade effluents permitting regime; and if he will make a Border Inspection Posts and those ports/airports accepting statement. [137070] animals being imported under the Rabies Order.) Therefore there are no comprehensive records held by the AHVLA Richard Benyon: An outline of the plan to review the on which port/airports are involved in handling live consenting of trade effluent discharges to sewers can be animals. Consequently, neither do they hold comprehensive found in ‘Red Tape Challenge (RTC)—Water & Marine records of the volumes of animals involved. Theme: Water proposals’which was published in December 2012. DEFRA officials are already working with the water and sewerage companies to evaluate the proposals they put forward. Once this work is complete we will Members: Correspondence consult on those proposals we believe will reduce the burden on business while continuing to protect the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for safety of sewerage infrastructure and the environment. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to answer the letter sent to him by the right hon. Member Ivory: South East Asia for Manchester, Gorton on 1 November 2012 with regard to Ms Ann Carter. [134200] Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will discuss Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State replied to the with (a) the Holy See and (b) his counterparts in right hon. Member’s letter on 21 December 2012. 679W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 680W

National Wildlife Crime Unit has also been instrumental in the introduction of a stricter approach across the EU to the issue of CITES Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of licences for the re-export of rhino horn. State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what CoP16 presents an important opportunity to explore plans he has for the future of the National Wildlife with the wider international community ways of securing Crime Unit; and if he will make a statement. [136637] better protection for species subject to unsustainable levels of trade and to combat illegal trade more effectively. Richard Benyon: The Government takes the matter of We have yet to finalise our positions in respect of wildlife crime very seriously and appreciates the contribution CoP16 proposals but elephants and rhinos will be high made by the National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU) in priorities for the UK during the conference. tackling these crimes. Decisions on NWCU funding beyond 2012-13 will be taken as soon as possible. Salmon: Northumberland Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what funding his Department plans to allocate to the UK National Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wildlife Crime Unit in each of the next two financial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the years; and if he will make a statement. [137068] answer of 19 December 2012, Official Report, column 513W, on salmon: Northumberland, what Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the figures for salmon stocks in the river Coquet he used response I gave the hon. Member for Huddersfield when considering his decision on the Net Limitation (Mr Sheerman) on 10 December 2012, Official Report, Order. [135384] column 158W. Richard Benyon: Figures used for salmon stocks on Public Houses: Halifax the Coquet were derived from electric fishing surveys, fish counters and rod catch data, alongside assessments Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for of fish communities used for Water Framework directive Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many pubs purposes and compliance with salmon management have closed in Halifax in each of the last five years. targets. [136636] Electric fishing data from five sites indicated that Brandon Lewis: I have been asked to reply on behalf there were around 40 juvenile salmon per 100 sq m on of the Department for Communities and Local the Coquet in 2011. However, there is wide variability in Government. the results between sites. No significant differences in juvenile salmonid densities were found between the My Department does not hold this information. periods 1993-03 and 2004-11. Rhinoceros Products and Ivory: Africa Rod catch and rod effort (days fished) data have been submitted by anglers over several years and provide Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State some indication of trends in stock levels. In 2010, the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he most recent year for which data was available at the is taking to tackle the escalation in the rhino horn and time of the report, the declared salmon rod catch was 978. elephant ivory trade across Africa. [136755] Fish counters on the Coquet have recorded returning Richard Benyon: Illegal trade in rhino horn and elephant adult salmon and sea trout from 1994 to 2007, in order ivory is of great concern to the Government given the to calculate a minimum estimate of upstream migration. alarming rise in poaching and trafficking across Africa In 2007, 10,176 fish were recorded passing upstream. in recent years. We work closely with other nations and The Coquet is split into 23 separate water bodies for international organisations to tackle this and play an Water Framework directive purposes and 78 sites were active role in the convention on international trade in electric fished in assessing the ’ecological status’ of endangered species (CITES), whose next Conference of these water bodies. Of the water bodies, 19 were assessed the Parties (CoP16) will take place in March. Through as being at ’good’ or better status for fish, including this convention we have been able to strengthen the salmon, meaning that these fish stocks were healthy. Of advice, assistance and tools provided to help range the four water bodies that failed to achieve ’good’ status states enforce CITES controls, conserve wildlife threatened or better, the absence of salmon was one of the reasons by unsustainable levels of trade and combat illegal for this failure in two cases. wildlife trafficking. The Government also supports a wide range of specific Further data was also available to us on the stocks in action to tackle illegal wildlife trade, including: contributing the other north east rivers contributing to the fishery financially towards Interpol-led projects which build and, relating to compliance with requirements under enforcement capacity in range states to conserve elephants the Habitats directive, on stocks in rivers in eastern and rhino; funding a post in the CITES Secretariat to Scotland. help combat wildlife crime; and chairing the CITES In coming to our decision, we took into consideration Rhino Working Group tasked with investigating the our obligations to promote the conservation, restoration, drivers behind, and possible solutions to, the dramatic enhancement and rational management of salmon stocks rise in rhino poaching. In order to reduce the amount of in the North Atlantic ocean under the North Atlantic rhino horn entering into illegal trade in Asia, the UK Salmon Conservation Organisation convention. 681W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 682W

Water Charges Economic growth/value of the water companies is represented by the level of the regulated capital value Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for (RCV). Growth in the RCV reflects the continued capital Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he enhancement programme. has made of the proportion of households where the At the review Ofwat’s calculations said that the RCV price of plumbed water will be charged according to of the sector will grow from £48 billion at the beginning the rateable value of their home in each of the next five of the current price period (1 April 2010) to £53 billion years. [137061] at the end of the price review period (31 March 2015). All numbers are quoted in 2007-2008 prices. Annual Richard Benyon: In 2009, the water industry regulator, growth in the RCV is calculated between 1 April and Ofwat, set price limits for all of the regulated water 31 March. The RCV for 2011-12 was forecast to be companies in England and Wales, covering the period £50.76 billion, growing to £52.22 billion in 2012-13. from 2010-11 to 2014-15. As part of that process, it forecast the proportion of each company’s household Water: Lancashire customer base that would be charged on a metered basis and the proportion that would be charged on an Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for unmetered basis. These forecasts were based on information Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he in the companies’ business plans. That information did has to monitor changes in water quality in Bleasdale, not distinguish between unmetered customers who would Lancashire caused as a result of fracking. [135940] be charged according to the rateable value of their properties and unmetered customers who would be Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency’s charged on another basis, such as an assessed charge. understanding is that there are no proposals to carry The following table shows the proportion of household out hydraulic fracturing in Bleasdale. Furthermore, the customers charged on a metered basis across England groundwater around the sites which have so far been and Wales over the current price review period. The granted planning permission to carry out exploratory next price review will take place in 2014 for the period fracturing in western Lancashire is not used for drinking 2015-20. water supply in these areas. Proportion of households in England and Wales charged on a metered basis The Environment Agency must make an assessment Percentage on the risk of pollution to groundwater on a case by Actual Forecast case (site by site) basis. The Environment Agency has assessed that there is no risk of pollution of groundwater 2010-11 39 — for the existing sites but this could be different for other 2011-12 — 42 sites in Lancashire. 2012-13 — 45 The Environment Agency would require an operator 2013-14 — 48 to apply for an Environmental Permit for a groundwater 2014-15 — 50 activity before hydraulic fracturing could commence, if Note: Figures for 2011-12 are provisional while those for 2012-13 to 2014-15 are they determine that there could be a risk of pollution of forecast. groundwater at a site. This permit would put conditions Water Supply on their operation, which would control the risks of pollution in order to safeguard the groundwater and water quality. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on which occasions the High Level Group on Water Market Reform has met. [137041] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

Richard Benyon: The High Level Group met on Broadband: Rural Areas 7 September 2012, 16 November 2012 and the 10 January 2013. In addition to which, a further six sub-group Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for meetings have taken place drawing in expertise from Culture, Media and Sport what recent progress her across the industry in order to progress the groups’ Department has made on rolling out broadband in work on developing a timetable for market opening and rural areas; and if she will make a statement. [137422] defining the structure of the market. At its most recent meeting the High Level Group scheduled a further eight Mr Vaizey: We are making very good progress. Nine meetings for later in 2013. local projects have agreed contracts, and the first street cabinet supported by the rural broadband programme Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for was switched on at Ainderby Steeple in North Yorkshire Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he on 13 December. Three further projects are aiming to has made of projected economic growth in the water agree contracts this month and, if they stick to the sector in the next 12 months. [137042] timetable, all projects should have completed procurement by the summer. Richard Benyon: Ofwat, the water industry regulator, conducts a price review every five years, for a five-year Culture: Olympic Games 2012 period. The last price review was in 2009 for the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2015. Ofwat has approved Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, water company plans to invest £22 billion on improving Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the services for customers between 2010 and 2015. economic return from the Cultural Olympiad. [136965] 683W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 684W

Mr Vaizey: The Department is delighted with the Council England (ACE), ACE has advised that Youth huge impact that the Cultural Olympiad has made. The Music monitors levels of participation in the projects it final evaluation is due to be published in the spring, funds, and have provided the following participation which, as well as assessing the cultural and social impact, rates since 2009: will provide some evidence on the economic impact of the Cultural Olympiad. Participants

Individual regions have conducted economic impact 2009-10 130,869 assessments. For example, the west midlands recorded a 2010-11 177,796 net economic impact of £27.4 million from the Cultural 2011-12 111,361 Olympiad. Youth Music funding focuses on increasing musical Digital Broadcasting: Radio participation among early years children, economically disadvantaged or otherwise excluded groups of children Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for and young people. Culture, Media and Sport what steps her Department is taking ahead of the switchover to digital radio; and if Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, she will make a statement. [136575] Media and Sport what assessment she has made of the report published by Sound Connections in November Mr Vaizey [holding answer 14 January 2013]: No 2012 on pilot music rehearsal spaces for young people. decision has been taken at this time by Government to [136955] implement a radio switchover policy. Since 2010 the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has been Mr Vaizey: UK Music, the umbrella organisation working with Ofcom, broadcasters, manufacturers, representing the collective interests of Britain’s commercial infrastructure operators and consumer representatives music industry, now has responsibility for the pilot to consider a range of issues to ensure any decision on music rehearsal spaces. According to the report into the radio switchover is well informed. Progress is reported spaces, commissioned by Sound Connections, there were in the Digital Radio Action Plan, which is published on approximately 33,000 visits to the spaces, with three the DCMS website: quarters of those participants aged between 11 and 18 http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/broadcasting/ years. Many spaces supported young people from poorer 7228.aspx. socio-economic neighbourhoods in to employment, We have always been clear that the timing of any education and training. switchover will be determined by the consumer. No date for a switchover will be set until 50% of all radio Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, listening is already to digital. We have also said that Media and Sport whether Youth Music is working with DAB coverage at national and local level will need to be all 122 music hubs. [136956] comparable to FM. Mr Vaizey: As a delegated lottery distributor of Arts Insurance Council England (ACE), YouthMusic’s Musical Inclusion grant holders ensure opportunities exist for children Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for and young people in challenging circumstances to access Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she and progress through high-quality music making. There has had with insurance companies on age limits in are currently 26 Musical Inclusion grant holders across respect of access to their services. [136593] England working with 118 Music Education Hubs. YouthMusic is working to identify and develop appropriate Jo Swinson: I have had no such discussions. However, partners in order to achieve full coverage and establish the Government have an agreement with the Association links with the remaining four Music Education Hubs. of British Insurers (ABI) and the British Insurance Newspaper Press: Complaints Brokers Association (BIBA) that requires their members to help older customers find motor and travel insurance to meet their needs and the ABI to publish information David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for on insurers’ use of age in the assessment of risk for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make an these types of insurance. Officials are working with the assessment of the value of establishing an arbitration industry to monitor the agreement’s effectiveness and it system modelled on the Court of Arbitration for Sport will be formally reviewed no later than 2015. Details on to resolve press complaints; and if she will make a the agreement can be found at: statement. [136273] http://www.abi.org.uk/Facts_and_Figures/ Data_by_Age_and_Gender.aspx Mr Vaizey: The Government welcomed Lord Justice Leveson’s report, which proposed a system of independent Music: Young People self-regulation for the press. As such, the challenge of developing the new self-regulator, which Lord Justice Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Leveson recommended should include an arbitration Media and Sport what assessment she has made of service, has been taken up by the press. Detailed proposals levels of participation in projects funded by Youth are currently being developed by the industry. Music from 2009 to 2012. [136953] Olympic Games 2012

Mr Vaizey: The Department does not record this Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for information. As a delegated lottery distributor of Arts Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 685W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 686W

17 December 2012, Official Report, column 554W on WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Olympic Games, (a) what progress has been made in the discussions with the British Olympic Association Marriage and the International Olympic Committee on a framework to give London 2012 suppliers greater Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for Women and freedom to promote their work on the Games, (b) by Equalities if she will publish the responses to the what date she expects an outcome to these discussions Government’s consultation on equal marriage. [137423] and (c) what (i) deadlines, (ii) milestones and (iii) Mrs Grant: We have already published the summary timescales she has put in place for this process. [137141] of responses and data in relation to the specific questions asked in the Government response. This can be found Hugh Robertson: The Government is completely at: committed to delivering a legacy from the London 2012 www.culture.gov.uk/equalities Games, which includes helping businesses that were involved in the project benefit from their outstanding Members: Correspondence work. We are making good progress in discussions on new arrangements with the British Olympic Association Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Minister for Women (BOA) and hope to make an announcement about the and Equalities when she intends to reply to the letter new arrangements in the very near future. sent to her by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton on 28 November 2012 with regard to Ms K Permanent Secretaries Jones. [136124] Maria Miller: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 14 January with regards to this matter. Media and Sport whether she has any plans to downgrade the Permanent Secretary position in her Department. [136995] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Maria Miller: I have no plans to downgrade the Permanent Secretary position in my Department. Data Protection Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on how many occasions each Minister in his Department carried classified LEADER OF THE HOUSE documents on public transport in the last 12 months for which information is available. [137109] Business Committee Gregory Barker: This information is not held by the Department. Ministers handle official information in Mr Chope: To ask the Leader of the House whether accordance with government guidance. the Government intends to introduce a House Business Committee by the third year of this Parliament; and if EAGA he will make a statement. [137249] Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Lansley: The Coalition’s programme for government Energy and Climate Change what the salaries of the contained a commitment to establish a House Business Chief Executive of EAGA and the head of Xtrawarm Committee by the end of the third year of the Parliament. are; and whether bonuses are paid to those individuals. As I explained in my evidence to the Political and [137201] Constitutional Reform Committee on 10 January, in Gregory Barker: Carillion Energy Services was previously developing proposals we will want to take into account known as Eaga. All executive directors remuneration the developments in the work of the Backbench Business details are recorded as part of Carillion annual accounts. Committee and consider how a House Business Committee Full details are available from: will add value in the management of business. http://annualreport2011.carillionplc.com/governance/ We will give careful consideration to any views put remuneration_report.php forward by the Political and Constitutional Reform Details of individual employees’ salaries are commercially Committee on the implementation of this. sensitive information and as such cannot be provided. Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Bills: Free Votes Energy and Climate Change if he will ask EAGA to ensure that full information, including the name of the Mr Burrowes: To ask the Leader of the House head of Xtrawarm, is published on its website. [137202] further to his oral answer of 10 January 2013 to the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, on issues of Gregory Barker: Xtrawarm is an optional commercial conscience, which Government Bills since 2001 were service offered to Warm Front customers by Carillion not included in the Queen’s Speech but were put to the Energy Services (CES) at the end of the aftercare period House for decision on the basis of a free vote. [137348] provided by Warm Front. Decisions about marketing for Xtrawarm are the responsibility of CES. The CES Mr Lansley: Whipping is a matter for individual website is at: parties and not a matter that the Government can www.carillionenergy.com comment on. and CES’s managing director is Nigel Taylor. 687W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 688W

CES makes Xtrawarm available only to previous Mr Hayes: The Government is continuing to discuss Warm Front customers and it is not marketed through the possibility of a sale of some or all of the UK a website. A website does not exist to publish information shareholding in Urenco with the Dutch and German about Xtrawarm. All Xtrawarm customers are provided Governments and shareholders. These discussions are with a welcome pack with information about the service being supported by legal and financial advisers. No and full contact details. final decisions have yet been taken and any decision to sell will be subject to maintaining protections in the Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for areas of nuclear non-proliferation, safety and security, Energy and Climate Change what the working as well as ensuring any transaction delivers value for relationship between EAGA and Xtrawarm is; and if money for the tax payer. he will make a statement. [137203] Gregory Barker: Xtrawarm is an aftercare insurance- Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for backed product owned by Carillion Energy Services. Energy and Climate Change how much income has been received by the Exchequer from its stake in Government Procurement Card Urenco in each of the last three years. [137062] Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many (a) staff and Mr Hayes: The Government has a 33% shareholding (b) special advisers in his Department have use of a in Urenco via Enrichment Holdings Ltd. The only income received is in the form of dividends, which are Government Procurement Card. [137261] received and recorded in DECC’s resource accounts Gregory Barker: The number of Department of Energy under programme income. The following table summarises and Climate Change (a) staff holding Government the amounts received in each of the last three financial Procurement Cards (GPCs) is 186; (b) there are no years as well as the amount received to date in the special advisers holding GPCs. financial year 2012-13:

Press: Subscriptions £000

Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 22,040 Energy and Climate Change how much his 2010-11 21,618 Department spent on newspapers and periodicals in 2011-12 26,141 2011-12. [137283] 2012-YTD 51,052 Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Climate Change spent £22,000 on its electronic press cuttings service during the 12 month period ending March 2012. The equivalent expenditure for the period HEALTH 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 was £80,000. The Department does not record expenditure on Cancer Services: Expenditure newspapers, periodicals and trade profession magazines separately from overall expenditure on publications which 15. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for includes the cost of the Department’s own publications Health what estimate he has made of real-terms as well as purchased publications of all types. It would expenditure on cancer services in each of the last five incur disproportionate costs to scrutinise all publication years. [136846] transactions to identify relevant amounts. Procurement Mr Jeremy Hunt: It is not possible to compare real terms expenditure on cancer services over the last five John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for years. As the Cancer Research UK report stated: Energy and Climate Change how many research “In order to improve the quality of the data, continual contracts commissioned by his Department were not refinements have been made making year-on-year comparisons subject to a tendering process in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 very difficult.” and (c) 2012. [135968] As part of our commitment to increase the national Gregory Barker: The Department for Energy and health service budget, we are investing £750 million to Climate Change does not record centrally the numbers support early diagnosis and improve access to treatment. of contracts commissioned outside of a tendering process Primary care trusts have local discretion as to how and this would be available only at a disproportionate they spend their overall baseline allocations, including cost. in the area of cancer care, to allow commissioning to Procurements under £10,000 are competed by obtaining best reflect the needs of local populations. competitive quotes and are not subjected to a tendering process. The Department complies with Cabinet Office HIV Infection Rates guidance, competing all work over £10,000 unless there are extenuating circumstances. 16. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Urenco Health what steps he is taking to reduce HIV infection rates. [136847] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what progress has been Norman Lamb: The Department funds the Terrence made in selling off the Government’s stake in Urenco. Higgins Trust to undertake a national programme called [136957] HIV Prevention England, for communities at increased 689W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 690W risk of HIV. This includes promoting testing, condom Norman Lamb: Although cases of tuberculosis (TB) use and developing the evidence base for effective HIV have increased slightly in 2011, the overall TB incidence prevention. rates in the United Kingdom appear to have stabilised since 2005. Hospital Building The stabilisation of TB rates, the rising proportion of patients completing treatment and the increasing proportion 17. Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for of laboratory confirmed cases are encouraging trends. Health what assistance is available to NHS trusts for the building of new hospitals. [136848] Accident and Emergency Departments

Dr Poulter: Individual national health service trusts Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and NHS foundation trusts are responsible for developing (1) how many operational urgent care centres there and taking forward their own capital investment proposals. were in (a) London and (b) England in (i) 2010, (ii) An NHS foundation trust can apply to the Department’s 2011 and (iii) 2012; [136922] Foundation Trust Financing Facility for a capital investment (2) how many urgent care centres (a) opened and loan. Plans are assessed against the Foundation Trust’s (b) closed in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012 in (A) Prudential Borrowing Limit set by Monitor. London and (B) England; and if he will make a Non-EU Patients: Costs statement. [137050]

18. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Poulter: The Department does not collect the Health what steps he is taking to recover costs in information requested. respect of non-EU patients who are not entitled to free Aerials: Health Hazards NHS care. [136850] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: National health service hospitals have Health what recent assessment he has made of the a statutory duty to make and recover charges for any public health implications of cumulative radiation visitors not otherwise exempted. from telecommunications masts. [137242] We have recently undertaken a comprehensive review of current rules and practices on charging visitors for Dr Poulter: The Department refers to the Health NHS care and expect to make further announcements Protection Agency (HPA) for scientific advice on non- shortly. ionising radiation, including radiation from telecommunications masts. The 2012 report prepared Elective Operations: Non-Clinical Cancellations by the HPA’s independent Advisory Group on Non-ionising Radiation is a recent and comprehensive assessment of 22. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for the evidence of health effects from radiofrequency radiation, Health how many elective operations have been such as that emitted from telecommunications masts. It cancelled for non-clinical reasons in the last 12 months; is available on the HPA’s website at: and if he will make a statement. [136854] www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ HPAweb_C/1317133826368 Dr Poulter: In the 12 months to 30 September 2012, elective operations cancelled at the last minute for non- Alcoholic Drinks: Females clinical reasons represented 0.8% of all elective activity compared to 0.8% at the time of the last election. Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2011-12, the last full year’s worth of data available, Health (1) what estimate he has made of the number of elective operations cancelled at the last minute for non- alcohol-dependent women in (a) Chatham and clinical reasons represented 0.8% of all elective activity Aylesford constituency and (b) England in the last five compared to 0.9% in 2009-10, the year prior to the last years; [136447] election. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of women in each (a) socio-economic group, (b) ethnic Liverpool Care Pathway group and (c) age group classed as alcohol-dependent since 2010. [136448] 23. Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to maintain the integrity Anna Soubry: Estimates are not available for each of of the Liverpool Care Pathway. [136855] the last five years. National and regional estimates on alcohol dependence Norman Lamb: We expect to announce the Chair for are included in the adult psychiatric morbidity survey, the independent review into use of the Liverpool Care ‘AdultPsychiatric Morbidity in England, 2007’ (APMS), Pathway very soon. The Review will examine patients’ which was published in January 2009. A copy has been and professionals’ experience of the Liverpool Care in placed in the Library. practice, and will consider the role of financial incentives The next APMS Survey is expected in 2014. in its use. It will report by the summer. Tuberculosis Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the number of 24. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for women (a) currently in treatment and (b) who have Health what recent assessment he has made of rates of received treatment for alcohol misuse in the last five tuberculosis infection. [136856] years. [136449] 691W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 692W

Anna Soubry: Estimates are not available for each of Percentage the last five years and could be made only at Moderate Harmful disproportionate cost. England drinkers drinkers

The following table shows the number of female Female -3.8 -2.0 -6.2 clients in contact with structured alcohol treatment at Notes: any point in the year for the three years: 2008-09, 1. Moderate drinkers are those drinking within NHS guidelines—for statistical purposes, these are taken as a weekly equivalent of no more than 21 units for 2009-10 and 2010-11. Clients who were in treatment men and no more than 14 units for women. during a period which crosses into more than one year, 2. Harmful drinkers are those drinking more than double the weekly equivalent are counted once in each year their treatment journey of the NHS guidelines, i.e. more than 50 units weekly for men and more than 35 crosses into. units weekly for women. The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for will be publishing the 2011-12 statistics on 17 January. Health what estimate he has made of the number of Female clients in treatment, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 women admitted for the treatment of alcohol-related Number Percentage conditions or injuries in (a) Chatham and Aylesford constituency and (b) England in the last five years. 2008-09 35,818 36 [136452] 2009-10 39,187 35 2010-11 39,259 35 Anna Soubry: The table contains the sum of the Source: National Alcohol Treatment Monitoring System Statistics Report, 1 April 2010 estimated alcohol attributable fractions for admissions to 31 March. for women in Chatham and Aylesford parliamentary constituency of residence and England for the years 2007-08 to 2011-12. Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for It should be noted that a parliamentary constituency Health what progress the chief medical officer has breakdown is not possible before 2008-09. made in developing guidelines on alcohol consumption for women. [136450] These numbers provide an estimate of the numbers based on the proportion of diseases and injuries that can be wholly or partially attributed to alcohol, rather Anna Soubry: The chief medical officer has appointed than a count of episodes with an alcohol related diagnosis two expert committees to review the evidence, one on or cause code. the evidence on health risks from alcohol, chaired by It should be noted that these data should not be Professor Mark Petticrew, and the other on behavioural described as a count of people as the same person may issues, chaired by Professor Sally Macintyre. have been admitted on more than one occasion. Subject to the outcome of the review of evidence, Sum of the alcohol attributable fractions1 for women in Chatham and Aylesford which should take about 12 months, this will be followed parliamentary constituency of residence2 and England for the years 2007-08 to 2011-123 by a second phase involving the development of new Chatham and Aylesford guidelines. parliamentary constituency of residence England The evidence review will include consideration of health risks for women from alcohol consumption. 2007-08 — 325,973 2008-09 577 354,695 2009-10 573 395,249 Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 684 437,239 Health what assessment his Department has made of 2011-12 710 454,314 the potential effect of minimum unit pricing of alcohol 1 Alcohol-related admissions on the levels of alcohol consumption by women. The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on the methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory (NWPHO), which uses 48 [136451] indicators for alcohol-related illnesses, determining the proportion of a wide range of diseases and injuries that can be partly attributed to alcohol as well as those that are, by definition, wholly attributable to alcohol. Further information on these proportions can be found at: Dr Poulter: On 28 November, the Government launched http://www.nwph.net/nwpho/publications/AlcoholAttributableFractions.pdf a consultation on key policies within the Alcohol Strategy, The application of the NWPHO methodology has recently been updated and is seeking views on a proposed minimum unit price of now available directly from HES. As such, information about episodes estimated to be alcohol related may be slightly different from previously published data. 45 pence. The Government also published a consultation Alcohol attributable fractions are not applicable to children under 16. Therefore stage impact assessment. figures for this age group relate only to wholly-attributable admissions, where the attributable fraction is one. Consistent with the consultation stage impact assessment, 2 Parliamentary constituency of residence we have used the university of Sheffield’s School of The parliamentary constituency containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated as they may have Health and Related Research alcohol policy model to travelled to another parliamentary constituency for treatment. This field is only estimate the effects on alcohol consumption by men available from 2008-09 onwards. and women following introduction of a minimum unit 3 Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over price level of 45 pence per unit of alcohol as follows: time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent Percentage sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. Moderate Harmful Note: England drinkers drinkers Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. Total (all ages) -3.3 -1.2 -5.9 Source: Male -3.0 -0.8 -5.7 Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre 693W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 694W

Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the average Health (1) what steps he has put in place to support the number of alcohol units consumed by women (a) in NHS Commissioning Board to avoid premature employment, (b) in education, (c) not in work and (d) mortality linked to cancer; [137034] who are retired since 2010. [136532] (2) what steps he is taking to support the NHS Commissioning Board in saving more lives through Dr Poulter: Information on the average number of diagnosing cancer earlier. [137035] alcohol units consumed by women aged 16 or over in England in 2010, broken down by economic status, is Dr Poulter: In the Government’s mandate to the given in the following table. NHS Commissioning Board, we set an objective for the Board to work towards making England, through the Average (mean) number of alcohol units per NHS, one of the most successful countries in Europe at week preventing premature deaths. The aim is to make significant 1 Per person Per drinker progress in supporting the earlier diagnosis of illness, Economically active ensuring people have access to the right treatments, In employment 9.3 10.5 reducing unjustified variation between hospitals and focusing the NHS on preventing illness. Unemployed2 6.4 8.0 The NHS Outcomes Framework, will be used to assess progress against the mandate objectives. Domain Economically inactive 1 of the Framework focuses on measuring how the Retired 5.2 7.1 NHS is performing in preventing people from dying Student3 5.6 9.1 prematurely and includes mortality and survival rates Other4 6.1 9.1 for cancer. 1 Includes abstainers and those who have not drunk in the last year. 2 Based on the International Labour Organisation definition. As we have highlighted in the second annual report 3 Excludes those students who are also economically active (e.g. in for Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer published employment). in December 2012, good progress is being made in 4 Includes those who are permanently unable to work and those improving cancer outcomes. We are investing over ’keeping house’. £450 million in early diagnosis of cancer, including Source: Office for National Statistics, General Lifestyle Survey funding direct general practitioner access to key tests to help them rule out or confirm cancer in symptomatic Ambulance Services: East of England patients, funding more testing and treatment in secondary care and running campaigns to raise awareness of symptoms of cancer, Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many ambulance or response-car call-outs We are investing over £173 million to expand in the East of England (a) have and (b) have not been radiotherapy services up to 2014-15 to support the staffed with a paramedic in each of the last 24 months. utilisation of existing radiotherapy equipment; provide for new services; support increased access to proton [136516] beam therapy abroad: and deliver a £23 million Radiotherapy Innovation Fund (2012-13). The Department Dr Poulter: The information requested is not available has set aside up to £250 million of public capital to be in the format requested. invested by the national health service in building proton Incidents that resulted in an emergency response beam therapy facilities at The Christie Hospital and arriving at the scene in the East of England for the years University College London Hospital. These facilities 2010-11 and 2011-12 are shown in the following table: will treat up to 1,500 patients a year and the first is due Table 1: Emergency incidents (calls resulting in response arriving at to become operational from the end of 2017. the scene of the incident), East of England Ambulance trust, 2010-11 Since October 2010, over 25,000 patients in England to 2011-12 have benefited from the additional £650 million funding Thousand for cancer drugs that this Government has committed Ambulance Service 2010-11 2011-12 to providing. East of England 693.4 700.0 Ambulance service Source: Cancer: Drugs Form KA34, Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) The Department does not collect data on whether Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for these responses were staffed by paramedics or not. My Health what recent estimate he has made of the hon. Friend may wish to approach the East of England number of people in each strategic health authority Ambulance Trust, which might hold the information area who have received treatment following the requested. introduction of the Cancer Drugs Fund. [137207] Norman Lamb: Information on the number of patients Cancer who have had cancer drugs funded by strategic health authorities (SHAs) under the interim cancer drugs funding Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements in 2010-11 (from October 2010 to the end Health what steps he is taking to help the NHS of March 2011).and under the Cancer Drugs Fund Commissioning Board address premature mortality (from April 2011 to the end of November 2012) is linked to cancer. [136609] shown in the table. 695W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 696W

Number of patients funded Number of patients funded Number of patients funded from April 2012 to end Total number of patients Strategic health authority 2010-111 in 2011-12 November 2012 funded since October 20102

North East 420 696 321 1,437 North West 266 1,044 11,164 2,474 Yorkshire and the Humber 178 809 1,040 2,027 East Midlands 178 871 662 1,711 West Midlands 292 1,658 1,056 3,006 East of England 246 1,486 1,297 3,029 London 443 1,364 1,155 2,962 South East Coast 306 1,241 874 2,421 South Central 290 1,170 1,900 3,360 South West 161 1,459 1,656 3,276 Total 2,780 11,798 11,125 25,703 1 Some individual patients may be double-counted where a patient has received more than one drug treatment through the Cancer Drugs Fund. 2 The number of patients recorded to end November 2012 in the North West SHA area has fallen since October 2012 figures were initially released. This follows a review by the SHA which identified that a number of patients did not in practice require the funding that had been agreed. Source: Information provided to the Department by SHAs.

Care Homes Norman Lamb: We have no plans to commission an independent inquiry on this matter. However, the Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department acknowledges that services have not always been sensitive to the needs of people with chronic if he will make it his policy to provide support to assist fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME). persons to visit relatives in care homes; and if he will make a statement. [136524] The Health and Social Care Act (2012) sets out a range of reforms that will improve outcomes, improve Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission guidance access to services and give people, including those with on compliance with the Health and Social Care Act 2008 CFS/ME, more choice and control over the services (Regulated Activities) Regulations 2010, “Essential they receive. standards of quality and safety” (March 2010), sets out People with CFS/ME should be involved in decisions a number of outcomes service users should experience. about their care and we expect NHS professionals to Outcome 4 includes an expectation that care providers ensure that they fully involve patients and their family will help maintain the resident’s welfare and promote and carers to enable them to be part of that decision-making their wellbeing, by taking account of all their needs, process. including for personal relationships. If the person visiting a care home resident has social care needs, there may be a role for their local council Drugs: Babies social services in assisting them. However, other needs, such as help with the cost of travel for the person Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health visiting the resident, fall outside the responsibilities of (1) how many pregnant women have been prescribed the Department or social services. methadone in each of the last five years; and if he will The White Paper, “Caring for our future”, which set make a statement; [136918] out the vision for the reform of the care and support (2) how many instances of infant mortality were system, included a commitment to involve communities attributed to neo-natal withdrawal symptoms as a in decisions around health and care services, through result of maternal use of illicit or therapeutic drugs in local Healthwatch and health and wellbeing boards. each of the last five years; [136919] From April 2013, the Government is establishing new (3) pursuant to the answer of 8 November 2012, local Healthwatch organisations, which will champion Official Report, column 674W, on drugs: babies, from the views of people using health and care services. which illicit or therapeutic substances babies born with Local Healthwatch will help to connect care home neonatal withdrawal symptoms attributable to residents to their communities, by talking with them maternal use of illicit or therapeutic drugs were about their experiences and scrutinising how care homes withdrawing in each of the last five years; and if he will are working. make a statement. [136963] This will help ensure that care home residents are not at risk of being isolated from their local communities Anna Soubry: Data on the number of pregnant women and give them the opportunity to discuss their views prescribed methadone are not collected centrally. and experiences. The International Classification of Diseases system (ICD-10) is used to classify diseases treated in hospital. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome The ICD-10 code used to identify neonatal withdrawal symptoms from maternal use of drugs, P96.1, does not Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for allow for the identification of individual drugs. Health if he will commission an independent inquiry Between 2007 and 2011, the latest year for which data into UK Government policy on, and matters are available, there were no deaths attributed to neo-natal concerning, myalgic encephalomyelitis. [136498] withdrawal symptoms from maternal use of drugs. 697W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 698W

General Practitioners: Prescription Drugs counterparts in France regarding granting them a licence to allow the NHS to import Timoptol and Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Azpot for UK distribution. [137072] (1) whether penalties are imposed on GPs who Norman Lamb: The Medicines and Healthcare products frequently prescribe drugs for which cheaper Regulatory Agency (MHRA), an Executive agency of alternatives are available; [136511] the Department of Health, regulates manufacturers, (2) what guidance his Department issues to GPs on importers and wholesale dealers of medicinal products limiting the cost of prescription drugs where cheaper for human use in the United Kingdom on behalf of the options are available; [136512] UK Licensing Authority, through a system of licences. (3) what estimate he has made of the potential The MHRA has no jurisdiction in any another European savings that could accrue from GPs routinely economic area (EEA) member states to licence their prescribing cheaper alternative drugs. [136513] exporters of medicines. In the UK, importers of unlicensed medicines sourced Norman Lamb: General practitioner (GP) contracts from another EEA member state must hold a wholesale include a clause in relation to excessive prescribing, dealer’s licence and are legally required to notify the setting out that they shall not prescribe drugs, medicines MHRA in advance of the importation. or devices where the cost is in excess of that which is The MHRA has received notifications for the reasonably necessary for the treatment of an individual importation of preservative free unlicensed Timolol patient. The NHS Information Services Portal provides (the active ingredient of Timoptol) preparations and local NHS prescribing advisers with prescribing data to has not objected to them. No notifications have been enable monitoring of GP prescribing rates. These data received for Brinzolamide (the active ingredient of Azopt). can also be used locally to estimate potential savings opportunities. Health and Social Services: Expenditure Primary care organisations may challenge GPs who are routinely identified as having excessive rates of Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for prescribing of expensive branded medicines, without Health what his latest estimate is of the total proper justification and who do not change their behaviour, expenditure on (a) national health services and (b) as they could be in breach of their contract. However, social care services in England in (i) 2009-10, (ii) there will always be circumstances where the prescribing 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. [136345] of branded medicines will be appropriate and GPs must Dr Poulter: Historic health spending data is published always use their clinical judgment to determine the within the Department of Health’s annual reports and appropriate treatment for an individual patient. accounts 2011-12 (HC66) and can be found in Core The Department issued guidance to primary care Table 1 Public Spending (see p22 in the annual report trusts on strategies to achieve cost effective prescribing section). This is available in the Library. in 2007, and this was revised in 2010, entitled ‘Strategies Also, it is important to note that for the years prior to to achieve cost-effective prescribing: guidance for primary 2011-12, total departmental spending included Personal care trusts and clinical commissioning groups’. A copy Social Services (PSS) expenditure. However, as part of has been placed in the Library and is available at the the 2010 spending review negotiations, the Department Department’s website: agreed to the transfer of responsibility for PSS spending www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ to the Department for Communities and Local PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_120214 Government. Note 4 to Core Table 1 shows the PSS Through the Quality Innovation Productivity and spending for those years and for consistency, these Prevention Programme, the Department has also worked figures should be removed from the total departmental with partner organisations to develop practical guidance spending when comparing to subsequent years. and prescribing support tools to enable local NHS Spending on adult social care services is a matter for organisations to deliver prescribing savings while ensuring councils to decide on. The NHS Information Centre that patients continue to receive appropriate, high quality publishes data on the money spent by councils in England care. In April 2012, the NICE Medicines and Prescribing on adult social care. Their latest publication, “Personal Centre produced the latest version of their guide ’Key Social Services: Expenditure and Unit Costs—England Therapeutic Topics—Medicines management options 2011-12—Provisional Release” (published November for local implementation.’ 2012), shows historic spend on adult social care by http://www.npc.nhs.uk/qipp/key_therapeutics_topics.php councils, along with historic data In the annex entitled The National Audit Office (NAO) estimated in their “Personal Social Services, Expenditure and Unit Costs, 2007 report ’Prescribing costs in primary care.’ that England, 2011-2012: Annex—provisional national gross £200 million could be saved through a more consistent current expenditure 1994-2012”. Copies have been placed use of generic medicines, in four commonly prescribed in the Library. groups of drugs. For 2010, the NAO calculated that £415 million was saved, relative to 2005 prescribing Health Centres: Christchurch patterns, through better use of lower cost generic medicines in these four groups of drugs. Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department has disposed of its interest in Christchurch Health Centre; and if he will make a Glaucoma statement. [137248] Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Poulter: It is anticipated a disposal of the Health what recent discussions he has had with his Department’s interest in the property will occur shortly. 699W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 700W

Health Services: Ethnic Groups In some countries, local residents are required to make a financial contribution towards their care (typically Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for around 30%); if this is the case, then so would United Health what consideration he has given to incentivising Kingdom citizens. The Department for Work and Pensions, the collection of ethnicity data in primary and on behalf of the Department of Health, currently processes secondary care; and if he will make a statement. reimbursement claims from UK residents who incur [136439] such costs and those who for whatever reason have been incorrectly charged. Norman Lamb: There are national coding systems for The total amount paid to UK residents and the total data collection, which include race and ethnicity in number of applications received over the past three place. Additional codes can be included as appropriate years is shown in the following table. Figures prior to at a local level to reflect the demographic make-up of 2009 are not held centrally: the local population. This allows local monitoring to take place in a way that supports service planning and Amount reimbursed Number of decision-making and key processes such as the joint (£) applications received strategic needs assessments, but also allows national 2009-10 1,103,925 18,551 comparisons to be made. 2010-11 3,080,214 20,140 The Department, in collaboration with key stakeholders, 2011-12 2,836,724 20,251 is producing a short document that provides practical guidance for the national health service and councils (with social services responsibilities) on the collection The operational target for processing claims for of equality monitoring data about patients, service users, reimbursement of medical costs, which includes, verification communities and staff. The document focuses on the with other member state authorities, is 90 working days. equality characteristics, including race and ethnicity, Case load is monitored in relation to the percentage given protection under the Equality Act 2010, as well as of cases cleared within the 90 day target, which is as carer status and language. follows:

Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements Percentage of cases cleared within 90 days Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how long on average have UK nationals claiming 2009-10 94 for reimbursement under the E111 and European 2010-11 96 Health Insurance Card Management Programme 2011-12 87 waited for receipt of payment, in each of the last five years; [136364] (2) how much has been received by UK nationals Health Services: Yorkshire and the Humber applying for reimbursement under the E111 and European Health Insurance Card programme in each Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for of the last five years; [136365] Health what unweighted cash allocation per head was (3) how many applications were made by UK provided for each primary care trust in Yorkshire and nationals for reimbursement under the E111 and the Humber in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12 European Health Insurance Card programme in each and (d) 2012-13 (i) in cash terms and (ii) at 2012-13 of the last five years. [136366] prices. [137052] Dr Poulter: Under the European Health Insurance Card scheme,, citizens from one member state are able Dr Poulter: Allocations per head for each primary to access state provided healthcare in another member care trust (PCT) in the Yorkshire and the Humber state on the same basis as local residents, while on a Strategic Health Authority in cash terms and in 2012-13 temporary visit. prices are shown in the following table.

£ Per head allocation in cash terms Per head allocation at 2012-13 prices PCT 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Barnsley PCT 1,740 1,847 1,860 1,903 1,877 1,938 1,906 1,903 Bassetlaw PCT 1,529 1,647 1,710 1,754 1,649 1,728 1,752 1,754 Bradford and Airedale 1,578 1,645 1,659 1,692 1,703 1,726 1,701 1,692 Teaching PCT Calderdale PCT 1,509 1,579 1,614 1,651 1,629 1,657 1,654 1,651 Doncaster PCT 1,676 1,762 1,792 1,843 1,809 1,848 1,836 1,843 East Riding of Yorkshire 1,373 1,440 1,466 1,495 1,482 1,511 1,503 1,495 PCT Hull Teaching PCT 1,584 1,657 1,649 1,687 1,710 1,738 1,690 1,687 Kirklees PCT 1,505 1,577 1,592 1,630 1,624 1,654 1,632 1,630 Leeds PCT 1,480 1,542 1,525 1,552 1,597 1,618 1,563 1,552 North East Lincolnshire 1,561 1,639 1,688 1,737 1,685 1,720 1,730 1,737 Care Trust Plus 701W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 702W

£ Per head allocation in cash terms Per head allocation at 2012-13 prices PCT 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

North Lincolnshire PCT 1,464 1,535 1,571 1,606 1,580 1,610 1,611 1,606 North Yorkshire and York 1,347 1,410 1,444 1,477 1,453 1,479 1,480 1,477 PCT Rotherham PCT 1,650 1,731 1,768 1,817 1,780 1,816 1,812 1,817 Sheffield PCT 1,634 1,706 1,664 1,701 1,763 1,790 1,706 1,701 Wakefield District PCT 1,662 1,743 1,761 1,805 1,793 1,828 1,805 1,805 Notes: 1. Allocations have been put into 2012-13 prices using the projected gross domestic product (GDP) deflators for 2012-13 and the actual GDP deflator for earlier years. 2. PCT allocations show recurrent allocations only are not comparable across all years due to changes in services to be funded through these allocations. 3. The populations used to calculate allocations per head are Office for National Statistics estimates (unweighted). Source: Resource Allocation Team, Department of Health

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Cash prices 2012-13 prices Health what the unweighted cash allocation per head is CCG (£) (£) which will be provided for each care commissioning group in Yorkshire and the Humber in 2013-14 in (a) NHS North Lincolnshire CCG 1,156 1,133 cash terms and (b) 2012-13 prices. [137053] NHS Rotherham CCG 1,283 1,258 NHS Scarborough and Ryedale CCG 1,234 1,210 Dr Poulter: Allocations per head, for each clinical NHS Sheffield CCG 1,207 1,183 commissioning group (CCG) in Yorkshire and Humberside NHS Vale of York CCG 1,050 1,030 for 2013-14 in cash terms and in 2012-13 prices are NHS Wakefield CCG 1,268 1,243 shown in the following table. Notes: 1. CCG allocations are not comparable with allocations to primary care trusts up to 2012-13 as the services for which CCGs have commissioning responsibilities Cash prices 2012-13 prices are different, in particular CCGs are not responsible for commissioning primary CCG (£) (£) care services and-specialised services. 2. 2013-14 allocations have been put into 2012-13 prices using the projected NHS Airedale, Wharfedale and Craven 1,172 1,149 gross domestic product deflators for 2012-13 and 2013-14. CCG 3. The population used to calculate allocations per head is the number of NHS Barnsley CCG 1,378 1,351 general practitioners (GP) registrations in each GP practice in each CCG in April 2012. NHS Bassetlaw CCG 1,267 1,242 Source: NHS Bradford City CCG 952 934 NHS Commissioning Board NHS Bradford Districts CCG 1,177 1,154 NHS Calderdale CCG 1,196 1,173 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Doncaster CCG 1,324 1,298 Health what surplus or deficit was returned by each NHS East Riding of Yorkshire CCG 1,136 1,114 primary care trust (PCT) in Yorkshire and the Humber NHS Greater Huddersfield CCG 1,121 1,099 at the end of (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) NHS Hambleton, Richmondshire and 1,195 1,172 2011-12; and what outturn is expected for each such Whitby CCG PCT at the end of 2012-13 in (i) cash terms and (ii) NHS Harrogate and Rural District CCG 1,086 1,065 2012-13 prices. [137054] NHS Hull CCG 1,193 1,169 NHS Leeds North CCG 1,142 1,120 Dr Poulter: The final accounts position of primary NHS Leeds South and East CCG 1,307 1,282 care trusts (PCTs) in the Yorkshire and Humber Strategic NHS Leeds West CCG 1,062 1,041 Health Authority (SHA) region at the end of 2009-10, NHS North East Lincolnshire CCG 1,198 1,174 2010-11 and 2011-12, and their 2012-13 forecast outturn NHS North Kirklees CCG 1,160 1438 position is shown in the following table:

£000 2012-13 Quarter 2 2009-10 Annual Accounts 2010-11 Annual Accounts 2011-12 Annual Accounts Forecast Outturn Surplus/ PCT name Surplus/(Deficit) Surplus/(Deficit) Surplus/(Deficit) (Deficit)

Barnsley PCT 3,461 3,395 2,953 3,500 Bassetlaw PCT1 1,434 2,595 1,680 1,700 Bradford and Airedale Teaching PCT 7,550 6,680 8,165 7,500 Calderdale PCT 2,679 4,224 3,468 3,600 Doncaster PCT 4,177 2,691 2,688 2,250 East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 3,684 5,185 5,197 5,200 Hull Teaching PCT 3,820 3,714 3,113 19,400 Kirklees PCT 2,928 7,900 8,239 6,600 Leeds PCT 5,002 20,124 25,086 23,200 North East Lincolnshire Care Trust 2,222 2,181 1,783 1,400 Plus2 North Lincolnshire PCT 1,249 3,693 1,998 2,000 North Yorkshire and York PCT 317 242 209 (19,000) Rotherham PCT 2,042 2,192 2,196 2,200 703W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 704W

£000 2012-13 Quarter 2 2009-10 Annual Accounts 2010-11 Annual Accounts 2011-12 Annual Accounts Forecast Outturn Surplus/ PCT name Surplus/(Deficit) Surplus/(Deficit) Surplus/(Deficit) (Deficit)

Sheffield PCT 4,479 499 489 500 Wakefield District PCT 7,388 3,095 3,074 3,100 1 Bassetlaw PCT is being reported under the Yorkshire and Humber SHA region from 1 April 2011. Prior to this, it was reported under the East Midlands SHA region. 2 North East Lincolnshire Care Trust Plus was formed following the dissolution of North East Lincolnshire PCT on 1 September 2007.

Hospitals: Dorset technology appraisals, which include medicines and medical technologies, by publishing levels of compliance Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health at a local level. (1) when each of the wards currently empty at The innovation scorecard will help the NHS identify Christchurch Hospital was constructed; and what the gaps in compliance, which can then be justified, challenged cost of building each such ward was; [137244] or acted upon. The innovation scorecard is predicated (2) how many (a) wards and (b) beds at on those technologies where a NICE technology appraisal Christchurch Hospital are currently closed; and exists. As there are clinical guidelines from NICE on the whether contingency plans are in place to make use of use of in vitro fertilisation (IVF) but no technology these in the event of winter pressure on beds at the appraisals relating to IVF, future innovation scorecards Royal Bournemouth Hospital. [137245] will not include IVF. Mental Illness: Tower Hamlets Dr Poulter: These are matters for the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for We have written to the trust’s Chair, Jane Stichbury, Health how many people living in (a) Bethnal Green informing her of your inquiries. She will reply shortly and Bow constituency and (b) Tower Hamlets were and a copy of the letter will be placed in the Library. treated for mental illness in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [136608] Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance he has given to the Royal Bournemouth Norman Lamb: The information is not available in and Christchurch Hospitals Foundation Trust and the the format requested. A total of 7,238 people accessed Poole Hospital Foundation Trust on the invitation of secondary mental health care services in Tower Hamlets application to become public governors before a in 2010-11. Figures for 2011-12 are not yet available. decision has been made by the Competition Figures for patients who accessed primary mental health Commission on the proposed merger of those bodies. care services are not available. [137247] Data source: Mental Health Minimum Dataset 2010/11, Health and Social Dr Poulter: The Department has not issued any guidance Care Information Centre on this matter to the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and the Poole Hospital Multiple Sclerosis: Drugs NHS Foundation Trust. We are advised that Monitor, the independent regulator Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of NHS foundation trusts, issued guidance on this issue whether any investigation into whether the use of to the Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals nabiximols could lead to dependency was undertaken Foundation Trust and the Poole Hospital Foundation prior to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Trust in November 2011. This guidance was based on a Regulatory Agency’s licensing of nabiximols as a document entitled “Applying for a Merger involving an prescription-only medicine for the treatment of NHS Foundation Trust: Guide for Applicants” which spasticity due to multiple sclerosis. [137049] was published by Monitor in July 2006 and is available on Monitor’s website at: Norman Lamb: Prior to the licensing of Sativex (also www.monitor-nhsft.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/ known as nabiximols) the Medicines and Healthcare Merger_guide_0.pdf products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), as part of its assessment, considered the areas of tolerance, withdrawal, In Vitro Fertilisation rebound, addiction (dependency) and abuse potential before reaching the overall conclusion that the balance of benefit-risk was positive based on data submitted in Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for support of the marketing authorisation application. Health how local provision of IVF treatment will be This is documented through information in the public measured on future NHS innovation scorecards. domain, namely the UK Public Assessment Report for [137196] Sativex which is available on the MHRA website at: www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/par/documents/ Dr Poulter: The publication of an innovation scorecard websiteresources/con084961.pdf is a commitment in the NHS chief executive’s report and also within sections 4.4 and 5.1 of the published Innovation Health and Wealth (IHW). Summary of Product Characteristics for the product. A It aims to drive national health service compliance marketing authorisation for Sativex was issued on 16 June with National Institute for Health and Clinical (NICE) 2010. 705W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 706W

The longer term safety of the use of Sativex in The NIHR Research Design Service offers advice routine clinical practice is closely monitored by the and support on research design and methodology to MHRA in conjunction with other European regulatory researchers making funding applications and doing research authorities. As new data emerges it is carefully evaluated within the health research system. by the MHRA and where necessary current prescribing advice is updated to reflect the new evidence. Schizophrenia NHS: Research Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the results Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for of the 2012 National Audit of Schizophrenia published Health how he plans to support the NHS in December 2012 by the Royal College of Commissioning Board in its duty to promote research. Psychiatrists; and if he will make a statement; [136952] [137036] (2) what plans he has to implement the 42 recommendations made by the Schizophrenia Dr Poulter: In the Government’s mandate to the Commission Report. [136964] NHS Commissioning Board, we set an objective for the board to ensure that the new commissioning system Norman Lamb: The Department welcomes the 2012 promotes and supports participation by national health National Audit of Schizophrenia and the report from service organisations and NHS patients in research the Schizophrenia Commission. Improving mental health funded by both commercial and non-commercial services (including services for people with severe mental organisations, most importantly to improve patient illness) is a key priority for this Government, and we outcomes, but also to contribute to economic growth. have made it clear, through the Secretary of State for This includes ensuring payment of treatment costs for Health’s mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board, NHS patients taking part in research funded by that we expect mental and physical conditions to be Government and Research Charity partner organisations. treated in a co-ordinated way, and with equal priority. The mandate sets the NHS Commissioning Board the Prostate Cancer objective of putting mental health on a par with physical health and closing the health gap between people with Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for mental health problems and the population as a whole. Health what incentives he plans to offer to academics, Both reports include a focus on the physical health of funding bodies and other professionals to promote people with schizophrenia. Improving the physical health study into prostate cancer in black and minority ethnic of people with mental health problems, including severe communities; and if he will make a statement. [136440] mental illness, is one of the six objectives of the Government’s mental health strategy. The strategy’s Dr Poulter: The Department has funded the Prostate implementation framework (published in July 2012) Cancer in Ethnic Subgroups study led by the university sets out specific actions which a wide range of local of Bristol and papers based on the results of this organisations can take to improve the physical health of research have been published in several peer-reviewed people with mental health problems. journals. The NHS outcomes framework for 2013-14 sets out The Department’s National Institute for Health Research how the national health service will be held to account (NIHR) welcomes funding applications for research for the outcomes it delivers. The framework includes an into any aspect of human health, including prostate indicator (indicator 1.5) of the excess under-75 mortality cancer in black and minority ethnic groups. These rate in adults with serious mental illness. applications are subject to peer review and judged in Improvements to this indicator will only be possible open competition, with awards being made on the basis by improving the care which people with severe mental of the scientific quality of the proposals made. illness receive to improve their physical health, and to The NIHR supports and incentivises health care treat physical health problems. professionals to undertake research in a number of On 18 December 2012, following the reports from the ways. Schizophrenia Commission and the National Audit, I The NIHR Clinical Research Networks aim to ensure convened a roundtable meeting with a number of leading health care professionals and patients from all parts of stakeholders from health, social care and third sectors the country are able to participate in and benefit from to establish how to improve care for people with clinical research. schizophrenia. At that meeting a number of areas for improvement were identified and the group will be The Comprehensive Clinical Research Network funds reconvening again later this year in order to update on the sessions of clinical consultants spent on non-commercial progress. trials and studies supported by the network. The Clinical Research Networks allocate and manage funding to Social Enterprises meet the NHS service support costs for eligible studies sponsored by non-commercial research funders. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Through its training and career development what discussions he has had with the Minister for the programmes, the NIHR supports health care professionals Cabinet Office on plans to introduce social enterprise at all stages of their career: integrated clinical and zones; and if he will make a statement. [137429] academic training; doctoral training; postdoctoral training; and more senior awards. The prestigious NIHR Senior Norman Lamb: The Department has had no discussions Investigator award provides an additional incentive for on social enterprise zones with the Cabinet Office to the country’s most outstanding clinical researchers. date. 707W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 708W

Tower Hamlets Primary Care Trust implementation of efficiency plans aim to provide high quality, financially sustainable services that deliver good Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for outcomes, meeting local patient needs. Health what proportion of the efficiency savings made by Tower Hamlets Primary Care Trust in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12 have been reallocated to frontline WORK AND PENSIONS services. [136607] Access to Work Programme Dr Poulter: The national health service is managed locally and it is for individual primary care trusts to Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for determine how best to use their budgets to meet the Work and Pensions how many Access to Work grants health care needs of their local populations, taking into were allocated in (a) the Wirral, (b) Merseyside, (c) account local and national priorities. England and (d) the UK in each of the last 10 The Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention financial years. [136362] (QIPP) challenge describes the need for the NHS to identify up to £20 billion of efficiency savings, to reinvest Mr Hoban: The following table shows the number of in meeting the demands of an ageing population, and individuals assisted by the programme in the areas in the increased cost of drugs, and medical technologies. question for the previous five financial years. Data for QIPP is a locally led initiative. The design and earlier periods is not available.

Number of individuals helped by Access to Work each financial year Area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Wirral Local Authority 160 200 240 230 180 Merseyside JCP District 850 1,040 1,350 1,290 1,030 England 24,180 27,970 32,730 31,530 26,890 GB 27,710 32,140 37,290 35,830 30,750

Data Protection against an Atos decision not to award disability living allowance receive back payments of that benefit. Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for [137398] Work and Pensions on how many occasions each Minister in his Department carried classified Esther McVey: The decision to allow or disallow a documents on public transport in the last 12 months disability living allowance claim is made by decision for which information is available. [137102] makers who are DWP staff and not Atos. They do this by having regard to a range of evidence, guidance and Mr Hoban: The information requested is not held by advice which is likely to include material from Atos. this Department. Where a decision is overturned on appeal, unless the tribunal’s decision is to be challenged in respect of its Disability Living Allowance: Medical Examinations legal correctness or the decision is incomplete, arrears of any benefit owed is paid to the claimant or their David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work representative as quickly as possible. and Pensions whether patients’ notes are taken into consideration when Atos is assessing eligibility for Employment and Support Allowance disability living allowance. [137396] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: Atos Healthcare does not assess eligibility Work and Pensions whether he proposes that the for disability living allowance. Atos Healthcare act in weekly prescribed amount in employment and support an advisory capacity and all decisions on entitlement to allowance will be uprated in different ways for people benefit are made by DWP decision makers. in the (a) support group and (b) work-related activity To assist DWP in assessing eligibility for disability group; and if he will make a statement. [137051] living allowance, decision makers can request support from Atos Healthcare for a face to face assessment or Steve Webb: The main rate of employment and support for an explanation/clarification of medical evidence allowance (ESA) and the work-related activity group already held. In both cases the decision maker may raise component of ESA are to be increased by 1% for each specific questions or request advice which contains of the next three years. We will provide additional information/diagnosis taken from other medical evidence protection to those in the support group, who are less that the decision maker holds. likely to be able to increase their income by moving into In making a decision on benefit entitlement a work. The support group component will therefore be departmental decision maker will consider all available uprated with regard to the increase in prices, as is evidence, including the Atos Healthcare medical assessment currently the case. report or advice and any evidence provided by the claimant’s GP or other clinician. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many incapacity benefit David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work claimants were reassessed for employment and support and Pensions whether successful claimants on appeal allowance (ESA) in each month between February 709W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 710W

2011 and June 2012; how many such people were Guaranteed Minimum Pensions subsequently awarded ESA; how many such people were declared fit for work; of those declared fit for Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for work, how many appealed their decision; and of those Work and Pensions if his Department will publish who appealed their decision, how many appeals (a) draft legislation to equalise guaranteed minimum were refused and (b) were upheld. [137368] pensions between the sexes. [136912]

Mr Hoban: The Department regularly publishes Official Steve Webb: On 20 January 2012, DWP published a Statistics on incapacity benefits reassessment (IBR). consultation on draft legislation for pension schemes The latest publication released in November 2012 provides that are required to equalise guaranteed minimum pensions the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) outcomes for to reflect the European law position on equal treatment all claimants referred for reassessment up to the end of of men and women as it applies in the field of occupational February 2012. The publication is available here: pensions. DWP is still in the process of considering the responses http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ index.php?page=esa_ibr to that consultation, whether any alternative methods to equalisation should be considered, and whether any Information on appeals against IBR outcomes is not amendments should be made before the legislation is available. laid before Parliament. DWP will provide further information on its response Employment Schemes: Mental Illness to the consultation in due course. Housing Benefit Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 8 January Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013, Official Report, column 199W, on long-term Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has unemployed people: mental health, how many and made of the effect of housing benefit changes on (a) what proportion of people were treated for mental elderly people and (b) those with health problems who health issues under (a) Access to Work and (b) Work are unable to share a bedroom. [136466] Choice (i) in total and (ii) in each parliamentary constituency in each year for which data is available. Steve Webb: Equality impact assessments on all the [137040] housing benefit changes have been published and these set out the impacts on different groups. Esther McVey: Access to Work and Work Choice do The under occupation measure being introduced into not provide treatment for mental health issues. They the social sector from April does not apply to those over provide help for disabled people to gain or stay in a job. state pension age. Otherwise the size criteria allow one The following tables show: bedroom for a couple and take no account of individual 1. Number of individuals helped by the Access to Work programme in each circumstances. Claimants can apply to be considered financial year between 1 April 2007 and 30 June 2012, whose primary medical for a discretionary housing payment in circumstances condition was a mental health problem1 where sharing a room is not possible. Primary medical condition—mental health condition Number Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 190 Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has 2008-09 230 made of the effect of housing benefit changes on those 2009-10 410 in designated over-50s accommodation. [136467] 2010-11 520 Steve Webb: None. 2011-12 680 Q1 2012-13 500 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Source—Access to Work database. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the 2. Number of Work Choice programme starts in each financial year between 25 number of households whose income will be reduced October 2010 and 30 September 2012, whose primary medical condition was a by the application of the under-occupation penalty in severe mental illness or a mild to moderate mental health condition1 (a) each parliamentary constituency and (b) each Primary medical condition—severe mental illness or mild to moderate mental [136958] health condition local authority area. Number Steve Webb: The information is not available at local 2010-11 (25 October 2010-31 March n/a authority and parliamentary constituency level. 2011) Estimates of numbers affected by the under-occupation 2011-12 2,160 measure at national and regional level are available in Q1and Q2 2012-13 1,480 the impact assessment: 1 Source—Work Choice database. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Work Choice information is extracted from the Labour Market System (LMS). The http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- functionality to record an individuals Primary Disability on LMS was not occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf available until 3 May 2011. Therefore the Primary Disability of individuals referred to Work Choice prior to 3 May 2011 is unknown. Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work Choice and Access to Work data are rounded and Pensions what assessment his Department made of to the nearest 10 to avoid disclosing information about the ability of tenants to manage their housing benefit individuals. Numbers smaller than 10 are suppressed. budget; and if he will consider making it easier for This means that data on specific conditions are not local authorities to pay housing benefit direct to reportable at parliamentary constituency level. landlords. [137365] 711W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 712W

Steve Webb: Local authorities have discretion to pay integrity of the caverns, all people including those working housing benefit direct to a claimant’s landlord in any in the mine should be protected. HSE is currently case they deem appropriate. reviewing the pre-operation safety report prior to the site being brought into use. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions by what regulatory mechanism he Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work will implement his policy of uprating local housing and Pensions whether the Health and Safety Executive allowance by 1 per cent in (a) 2014-15 and (b) (HSE) required the developer of the Stublach Gas 2015-16. [137431] Storage Project to supply technical studies and assessments to ensure that there will be no leakage of Steve Webb: Local housing allowance rates are set by natural gas into the nearby Winsford Rock Salt Mine rent officers, under regulations set out in the Rent via geological pathways; and if he will direct the HSE Officer (Housing Benefit Functions) Order. A separate to publish any such studies and assessments. [137437] Rent Officers (Universal Credit Functions) Order was published on 10 December. Mr Hoban: The pre-construction safety report included a demonstration of the structural integrity of the caverns. We intend that in 2014-15 and 2015-16, local housing In a written answer, 28 November 2001, Official Report, allowance rates will generally continue to be set by the columns 947-48W, the Secretary of State for Transport, rent officer, at the lower of the 30th percentile of market Local Government and the Regions directed that full rents or the previous LHA rate increased by 1%. safety reports should be excluded from public registers on security grounds. Housing Benefit: Young People When an application is made under the Environmental Information Regulations for information regarding a Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work specific safety report, material is supplied subject to and Pensions how many people aged 25 years or under redaction to remove sensitive material. claimed housing benefit; and what the total cost was of such claims in each of the last four years. [135928] If further information regarding geological issues is provided as part of the pre-operation safety report or at Steve Webb: The requested information is in the any other stage, this will be releasable, subject to any following table: necessary security redactions. Housing benefit caseload and annual expenditure for claimants aged 25 and Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work under since 2008 and Pensions what factors the Health and Safety Expenditure for financial Caseload year (£ million) Executive took into consideration in its assessment of the Stublach Gas Storage Project March 2007 Pre- November 2008 448,920 1,784 Construction Safety Report; and whether those factors September 2009 490,380 2,229 included the potential health and safety risks to September 2010 494,430 2,375 underground miners of natural gas migrating into the September 2011 497,840 2,432 nearby Winsford Rock Salt Mine. [137438] Notes: 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. Mr Hoban: A key factor within the pre-construction 2. Caseload figures are rounded to 10. 3. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. health and safety report and assessed by HSE was a 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local demonstration of the structural integrity of the caverns authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The and ensuring they should be capable of containing the data is available monthly from November 2008 and August 2012 is the most recent available. gas effectively. Storengy’s demonstration of the integrity 5. Age is based on the age on the count date (second Thursday in the month), of of the caverns is central to ensuring that those both on either: and off site, including working in the nearby mine and (a) the recipient if they are single, or (b) the elder of the recipient or partner if claiming as a couple members of the public in the local vicinity, are protected. 6. Expenditure information for 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 has been calculated using four quarterly data points. Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 7. November 2008 has been used for 2008-09 as it is the first dataset available and most representative of the year as a whole. and Pensions if he will direct the Health and Safety 8. Expenditure information is consistent with published expenditure tables, Executive to publish the complete underlying data of which can be found at: geological and testing work it has carried out in respect http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/h_tables_autumn_2012_211212.xls Source: of the Stublach Gas Storage Project. [137439] Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) Mr Hoban: I am satisfied that the Health and Safety Natural Gas: Storage Executive has made and will continue to make available all information that it is empowered to release in answering Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work requests under the Environmental Information Regulations. and Pensions what assessment the Health and Safety Operators are required to demonstrate that they have Executive has made of risk to underground miners at taken adequate precautions to control risk and to undertake Winsford salt mine arising from the Stublach Gas any necessary surveys to support their demonstration. Storage Project. [137436] The Health and Safety Executive assesses the adequacy of demonstrations made by the operator. It has not Mr Hoban: The Health and Safety Executive has commissioned geological surveys. reviewed the pre-construction safety report for this development and concluded that the developers have Mr O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Work made appropriate demonstrations relating to the prevention and Pensions what assessment he has made of whether of gas escaping from the caverns. By ensuring the the Health and Safety Executive has fulfilled its 713W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 714W statutory duties and complied with its other Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of responsibilities with regard to potential health and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. safety problems arising from the Stublach Gas Storage The Government has no such plans. The decision on Project. [137440] what wages are set are for employers and workers. For the lowest paid workers, the Government’s aim is Mr Hoban: The approach being taken to the assessment to have a minimum wage rate that helps as many of the pre-operational safety report was subject to a full low-paid workers as possible, while making sure that we judicial review in June 2012. The review concluded that do not damage their employment prospects by setting it the Health and Safety Executive was applying the too high. regulations appropriately and no directions were made. In addition to the minimum wage, the Government is Occupational Pensions doing everything it can to help all working people on low pay with the cost of living. That is why we are Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for cutting income tax for the low paid and taking 2.2 million Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the people out of tax altogether. potential effect on public finances of salary sacrifice Pensions: Widowed People schemes where families earning over £150,000 can reduce their tax liability by redirecting pay into Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for workplace pension pots. [136557] Work and Pensions what steps he has taken to inform Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of widows in receipt of frozen category B pensions of the the Treasury. judgement in the case of Alma Yates vs the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions; and whether he is giving The information is not available. consideration to offering compensation to those widows. [135511] Pay Steve Webb: The Department’s legal liability following Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Court’s decision was restricted to the late Mrs Yates. and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to This is because, in cases like that of the late Mrs Yates, encourage employers to increase wages each year. where a Court finds that a decision made by the Department [136589] contained an error of law, the Department’s liability in respect of people in an analogous position is restricted Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of to periods following the Court’s ruling. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It is not now possible for a person to be in analogous For the lowest paid workers, the Government’s aim is position to the late Mrs Yates because the flaw in the to have a minimum wage rate that helps as many relevant legislation which gave rise to the Court’s decision low-paid workers as possible, while making sure that we was removed in April 2010—this was before the Court do not damage their employment prospects by setting it found in the late Mrs Yates’ favour. As a result, the too high. In addition to the minimum wage, the Government Court’s decision has no prospective application. is doing everything it can to help all working people on low pay with the cost of living. That is why we are Poverty: Children cutting income tax for the low paid and taking 2.2 million people out of tax altogether. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government supports the living wage and Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has encourages businesses to take it up where possible. made of the Government’s current method of However, the decision on what wages to set are for measuring child poverty; and what steps he plans to employers and workers. take to improve this method of measurement. [137237]

Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Esther McVey: The Government remains committed and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with to the targets in the Child Poverty Act 2010. However, trade unions on wages. [136590] the Government strongly believes looking at relative income in isolation is not a helpful measure to track Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of progress towards our target of eradicating child poverty. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. In times of economic growth, the relative poverty line Ministers and officials meet regularly with trade unions tends to rise. While the economy grew from 2003-04 to on a wide range of issues. However, neither the Secretary 2008-09, the Government spent over £300 billion in of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right working-age welfare and tax credits, yet the proportion hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), of the population in relative income poverty remained nor other Ministers in the Department have had any broadly flat and the previous government’s target to recent discussions with trade unions specifically on halve the number of children in relative poverty by wages. The decision on what wages are set is a matter 2010-11 was not met. for employers and workers. In times of recession the relative poverty line tends to fall. In 2010-11, 300,000 children moved out of relative Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work poverty largely due to reductions in median incomes. and Pensions if he will consider setting a target for Absolute poverty remained unchanged. It cannot be wage increases in the private sector over the next five right that we can move children out of poverty through years. [136591] a recession. 715W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 716W

The Government is currently consulting on better by CPI. As earnings growth and inflation projections measures of child poverty that will better reflect the change these estimates will change. In addition, these reality of child poverty in the UK today—tackling its impacts are not forecasts of the level of child poverty root causes, providing high-quality education, and helping and do not indicate what will happen to trends over people into work through universal credit. time. It is misleading to look at the impacts of uprating The consultation runs until 15 February 2013, and in isolation. The Government is investing in tacking the can be found at: root causes of child poverty through making work pay. http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ Work is the best route out of poverty. Universal departmentalinformation/consultations/a00216896/ credit will reduce poverty by making work pay and measuring-child-poverty providing an effective route out of poverty. Universal credit will improve work incentives by allowing Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for individuals to keep more of their income as they move Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the into work, and by introducing a smoother and more effect of (a) Universal Credit and (b) the Welfare transparent reduction of benefits when they increase Benefits Uprating Bill on child poverty. [137238] their earnings. Improving work incentives will reduce the number of families where no one in the household Esther McVey: The Government strongly believes goes out to work, and in the long-run will end cycles of looking at relative income in isolation is not a helpful poverty and worklessness: measure to track progress towards our target of eradicating child poverty. We estimate that up to 300,000 more people will enter work as a result of the introduction of universal credit through improved In times of economic growth, the relative poverty line financial incentives alone. The increase in employment driven by tends to rise. While the economy grew from 2003-04 to improved incentives under UC is expected to reduce poverty and 2008-09, the Government spent over £300 billion in make an important contribution to reducing child poverty. At working-age welfare and tax credits, yet the proportion least half of expected extra people in employment are parents, of the population in relative income poverty remained and around half of these parents are expected to move into jobs broadly flat and the previous government’s target to of over 16 hours per week. halve the number of children in relative poverty by We estimate between one and 2.5 million extra hours will be 2010-11 was not met. worked by those currently in work once universal credit is fully implemented. The vast majority of these extra hours will be In times of recession the relative poverty line tends to worked by parents. fall. In 2010-11, 300,000 children moved out of relative poverty largely due to reductions in median incomes. Universal credit will also re-focus entitlements on Absolute poverty remained unchanged. It cannot be lower income in-work households and should increase right that we can move children out of poverty through take-up of universal credit compared to the current a recession. complex system of benefits and tax credits. The Government is currently consulting on better Around 3.1 million households will have higher benefit measures of child poverty that will better reflect the receipt under universal credit as a result of changes in reality of child poverty in the UK today. entitlement and take-up—focusing on the lower income In the autumn statement (2012), it was announced groups: 75% of the gainers are in the bottom 40% of the that in light of the national economic situation, certain income distribution. The average impact of universal working-age social security benefits and payments, certain credit across all households is an increase of £16 per elements of tax credits, and child benefit, would be month. uprated by 1% rather than by prices (as measured by the The introduction of universal credit will significantly consumer prices index (’CPI’)) for the tax years 2013-14, improve the take-up of unclaimed entitlements, a powerful 2014-15 and 2015-16. tool in tackling poverty. It will be easier for people to While it is not possible to accurately project the understand the level of benefit to which they are entitled trajectory of household earnings, it is likely that in-work compared to the current complex system of benefits families with children will benefit from the steady earnings and tax credits. In addition, there will be an ’automatic growth forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility1. passporting’ effect for people who currently claim some, Indeed for some families this increase in earnings may but not all, of the benefits or tax credits to which they be enough that their income rises in real terms (i.e. after are entitled; a claim for universal credit will much more inflation is taken into account) even after the smaller readily ensure that claimants receive amounts associated increase in benefits. with their children and their housing costs. Where subject to an uprating, rates of benefits and Before taking account of the expected increase in tax credits will rise in cash terms. For instance, an numbers of people in work as a result of universal out-of-work lone parent with two children receiving credit, and excluding the impact of the minimum income income support, child tax credit and child benefit would floor for the self-employed, the introduction of universal see a cash increase of around £4 a week over the two credit is estimated to reduce the number of individuals years covered by the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill. in relative income poverty by some 600,000; including However, because the relative poverty income line moves around 250,000 children and around 350,000 adults. each year in cash terms, too, some families will move In the specific case of universal credit, the estimated below this line over the period. number has shifted compared to previous estimates for We estimate that the uprating measures in 2013-14, a number of reasons. Critical is the shift in the “poverty 2014-15 and 2015-16 will result in around an extra line” itself. If the poverty line used in the October 2011 200,000 children being deemed by this measure to be in impact assessment were applied to the new analysis the relative income poverty compared to uprating benefits number apparently shifted above the line as a result of 717W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 718W universal credit would be some 200,000 higher. The Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply simplification of rates for under-25s also reduces the given to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) impact by around 100,000. on 8 January 2013, Official Report, column 200W. The positive and dynamic behavioural effects of universal credit are important elements in a consideration of the Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for poverty effects. The minimum income floor for the Work and Pensions if he will publish the names of all self-employed is expected to encourage those reporting former Remploy managers who have been sold or been very low self-employed income to increase their earnings given any of Remploy’s former assets. [135315] to levels expected of employees in similar circumstances. However, before taking account of any expected behavioural Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply change among the self-employed affected, modelling given to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) estimates that universal credit reduces the number of on 7 January 2013, Official Report, column 174W. individuals in relative income poverty by some 400,000; including more than 150,000 children and around 250,000 Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for adults. Again, these estimates do not take account of Work and Pensions if he will place a list of any assets the expected increase in numbers of people in work as a formerly owned by Remploy that have since been sold, result of universal credit and the consequent impact on in the Library. [135316] poverty. Estimates of poverty effects are dependent on projected Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply changes in demography from the Office for National given to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) Statistics, and the economy from the Office for Budget on 7 January 2013, Official Report, column 174W. Responsibility, including earnings growth and inflation rates. As these projections change, the estimated numbers John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for below various income thresholds will also change. Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the amount of money received from selling assets following The estimates of poverty impacts of universal credit the closure of Remploy factories. [136615] are based on a comparison of universal credit fully in operation with the benefit and tax credit system projected Esther McVey: The Remploy commercial processes, forwards to 2014-15. This is not comparable with the including the ongoing disposal of assets from stage 1 estimates of poverty effects of uprating changes where factories and the upcoming process for stage 2 factory the impact is assessed in 2015-16 assuming the current businesses, is a matter for the Remploy Board and we benefit and tax credit system is still in place, i.e. it does are not yet in a position to provide a finalised figure. not take into account universal credit or personal Remploy will provide the total figures from the sale of independence payment. Full details of the methodology Remploy assets when ail commercial activity is completed for estimating the impact of universal credit and uprating 2 across the Remploy factory network in their annual can be found in the published impact assessments . report. 1 http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/autumn_statement_2012_complete.pdf Annex B: Table B2: Determinants of OBR central fiscal forecast. Social Fund: Clwyd 2 http://dwp.gov.uk/docs/welfare-benefits-up-rating-bill-ia.pdf http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/universal-credit-wr2011-ia.pdf Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what consideration he has given to the use of (a) community care grants and (b) crisis loans Remploy to support residents in the Vale of Clwyd who were affected by flooding in November 2012. [136800] Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on what occasions Ministers in his Steve Webb: Anyone affected by flooding in the Vale Department have met with trades union consortium of Clwyd or anywhere else in Great Britain, can make officers on the closure of Remploy factories. [135311] an application for a Community Care Grant or Crisis Loan, and receive an award if their individual circumstances Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply meet the conditions for a payment. given to the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) Community Care Grants help people with specific on 9 January 2013, Official Report, column 328W. needs who receive a qualifying benefit to establish themselves, or remain, in the community or to ease Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for exceptional pressures on them and their family. Work and Pensions if he will establish an inquiry into Crisis Loans are repayable awards with no qualifying the process of closing Remploy and reports of benefit conditions, but are only available when a person corruption in the sale of some Remploy sites. [135312] has insufficient resources to prevent a serious risk to health or safety to themselves or their family. Esther McVey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Coventry South Social Security Benefits: Fraud (Mr Cunningham) on 20 December 2012, Official Report, column 935W. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what savings from detected benefit fraud Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for were made by (a) his Department and (b) local Work and Pensions for what reasons Remploy factory authorities in each of the last four years. [135923] sites that were identified as to be sold have not yet been sold. [135313] Mr Hoban: The information is as follows: 719W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 720W

(a) Savings from detected benefit fraud recorded by Telephone Services the Department is the amount of overpayments recovered from fraudulent cases as per the following table: John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Value of recoveries on fraud currently classified debts and Pensions what additional services his Department Current classification fraud—value of receives from its telephone provider as a result of Financial year recoveries (£ million) revenue-sharing 0845 telephone lines. [137435] 2008-09 25 2009-10 28 Mr Hoban: DWP does not receive any revenue from 2010-11 33 telephone service providers from citizens phoning 0845 2011-12 40 numbers; a decision was made to stop the revenue share Total 126 in December 2007. Therefore DWP receives no additional Source: Debt Accounting. This does not form official statistics but is derived from services. Management Information. (b) The equivalent information for local authorities Unemployed People: Travel is not available as the Department does not collect data from them for the amounts recovered specifically relating to fraudulent overpayments. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the needs of jobseekers in relation to the costs of travel; and Pensions what estimate he has made of the [137197] proportion of his Department’s budget for benefit (2) what plans he has to improve support to payments which is lost to fraud perpetrated by (a) UK jobseekers with travel costs. [137199] citizens born in the UK and (b) claimants born outside the UK in each of the last 10 years. [136308] Mr Hoban: The Government recognises that travel costs can be prohibitive for many jobseekers. To overcome Mr Hoban: The requested information is not available. this, DWP advisers can use the Flexible Support Fund Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations to help claimants cover these costs for example if they need to attend job interviews or a training course. Work Programme providers also have the discretion to provide David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work financial help if it is required. and Pensions what the cost was of Atos assessing an individual for eligibility for benefits in the latest period Holders of the ’job centre plus Travel Discount Card’ for which figures are available; and what the cost was of will, during January 2013, be able to travel for free on seeing the same individual on appeal. [137399] almost every local bus service operated by four big bus companies. While it is Government policy to encourage Mr Hoban: Releasing details of Atos Healthcare’s people to use public transport, it is recognised that there underlying financial model, in particular details of the will be circumstances where this is not possible and in unit cost of each assessment that they have factored these circumstances other expenses can be allowed. into the contract would, or would be likely to, prejudice their commercial interests. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for It would reveal to their competitors commercially Work and Pensions what assessment he plans to make sensitive financial aspects of their contract which would of the effectiveness of the Bus for Jobs initiative. disadvantage Atos Healthcare’s competitive position in [137198] the marketplace. This in turn would prejudice the ability of the Department to secure best value for the taxpayer Mr Hoban: Given the very small scale of the initiative, when the contract is re-tendered. it is not possible to assess the effectiveness in terms of Release of this type of key financial information helping people find and stay in work. However, we would also undermine the effectiveness of the Department’s know that travel and transport are key enablers in terms future dealings with Atos Healthcare or other service of improving employment prospects and we are gathering providers which is also not in the public interest. information about our operational experience in supporting Bus for Jobs, to inform further discussions with Greener State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Abroad Journeys and Confederation of Public Transport about potential future arrangements. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what representations he received in 2012 from the Canadian government on frozen state Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for pensions for expatriate pensioners now living in that Work and Pensions what (a) advice, (b) guidance or (c) training has been provided to Jobcentre Plus staff country. [135875] on January’s Bus for Jobs initiative. [137200] Steve Webb: The Department has received no representations from the Canadian Government on the Mr Hoban: Jobcentre Plus staff have received operational issue of frozen pensions, however the issue was raised guidance, which includes information on participating by the Canadian Government in the bilateral discussions companies and the areas where free travel is available held with the Secretary of State for Foreign and through January. This guidance is used in conjunction Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for with existing guidance on the DWP travel discount Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), in September 2012. card. 721W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 722W

Universal Credit start of the reassessment process no PCA have been carried out. Information on PCA assessment times is Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for not available. Work and Pensions pursuant to his answer of 9 January 2013, Official Report, column 331, on Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work universal credit, whether the universal credit system and Pensions what estimate he has made of how many will wait until the hash in a statement of an employee’s and what proportion of Atos work capability earnings in a given period, obtained from the employer assessments have disagreed with the conclusion on in a PAYE real time information submission, has been work capability submitted by the claimant’s GP or matched before calculating the employee’s universal consultant. [136948] credit; and if he will make a statement. [137434] Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available Mr Hoban: The universal credit system will assess the as the Department does not ask claimants’ GPs or payment to be made to a claimant monthly. The earnings consultants about a patient’s capability for work. This used to calculate the universal credit payment will be position was endorsed by the British Medical Association determined from any RTI data received in the assessment in Professor Harrington’s third Independent Review of period—whether or not a hash match has been made in the work capability assessment. that period—and any earnings reported by the claimant. Whilst GPs and consultants are trained in diagnosis Hash matches form part of risk assessment data used and treatment, Atos’ healthcare professionals are trained both during and post assessment periods. in disability assessment, providing advice on the functional Welfare Tax Credits: Halifax effects of a person’s condition or disability to a DWP Decision Maker who will take the decision on benefit entitlement. Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Halifax constituency are currently in receipt of child tax credits and working Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work tax credits. [136907] and Pensions if he will change disability benefit appeal rules to allow work capability assessments to be Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of repeated as part of the appeal where the claimant has the Treasury. complained that the report of their original assessment contains factual inaccuracies relating to (a) This information is published in the HM Revenue discussions and (b) physical examinations which took and Customs publication ’Child and Working Tax Credit place. [136949] Statistics—Provisional Geographic analyses’. Information for December 2012 can be found here: Mr Hoban: Following a work capability assessment http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/prov-geog-stats/cwtc-geog- (WCA), claimants receive a summary of the outcome, dec12.xls including details of the points that they have scored. If In this publication, the number of families in receipt the claimant disagrees with the summary, they have the of child tax credit (CTC) or working tax credit (WTC) right to ask for an explanation of the decision and for in Halifax constituency can be found in Table 4. the decision to be reconsidered—along with any further For convenience, the figures are stated here: evidence they may wish to provide. Families in receipt of child tax credit in Halifax constituency— If a claimant subsequently appeals against the decision 9.7 thousand. made on their claim by a DWP decision maker, they will Families in receipt of working tax credit in Halifax constituency— receive from Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service 5.9 thousand. (HMCTS) a copy of all of the papers to which the Please be aware that families can be in receipt of both decision maker had access when reaching their decision— working and child tax credits, and these supplied figures including the WCA report. Where the claimant believes cannot be summed to provide the total for Halifax that the report contains factual inaccuracies, they can constituency. include their concerns in any response that they make to HMCTS. Work Capability Assessment HMCTS copy all correspondence from the claimant to DWP, so that DWP can consider any concerns raised Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and whether they wish to reconsider the decision under and Pensions what the average time taken was for the appeal. completion of a personal capability assessment for (a) We have no plans to change these procedures. employment and support allowance claimants and (b) income support claimants in each of the last four years. [135917] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many appeals of the outcomes of Mr Hoban: Eligibility for incapacity benefit (IB) and work capability assessments are based on a claim that income support (IS) on the grounds of incapacity was (a) the Atos report does not accurately reflect assessed under the personal capability assessment (PCA). discussions or physical examinations which took place Eligibility for employment and support allowance is at the assessment and (b) disagreement between Atos assessed under the work capability assessment (WCA). assessment reports and supporting medical letters from Starting in October 2010, most claimants who receive a claimant’s GP or consultant. [136950] IB and IS paid on the grounds of illness or disability will be assessed to see if they qualify for ESA. Since the Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available. 723W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 724W

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) does in Work Related Activity Group (WRAG) for medical not have the information requested. However, the reasons, after a successful appeal, based on a clerical Department has recently released ad hoc official statistics assessment or where the DWP Decision Maker’s decision for only those appeals allowed by the Social Security is different to the recommendation made by the Atos and Child Benefit (SSCB) Tribunal by benefit types and Healthcare professional. split by the primary reasons for doing so which is Of the 730 claims described above, there have been available at the following link: no instances where a claimant who was placed in the http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/adhoc_analysis/2012/ work-related activity group based on the points awarded sscs_appeals.pdf at the initial WCA, was later awarded fewer points at the next WCA on the same claim. Note that claimants Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work placed in the WRAG for reasons other than the points and Pensions what steps he is taking to improve the awarded by the Atos Healthcare professional have been accuracy of Atos work capability assessment reports. excluded. [136951] All figures have been rounded to the nearest 10.

Mr Hoban: The quality of Atos Healthcare’s reports Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for is subject to stringent quality checks and audit. Work and Pensions how many people with Parkinson’s Only 3.6% of assessment reports are found to be disease undergoing an incapacity benefit reassessment below standard (compared to a target of 5%), Atos for employment and support allowance have been (a) receives complaints about only 0.6% of their caseload found fit for work, (b) placed in the work related and only 0.2% of Atos reports are sent back to them by activity group and (c) placed in the support group. DWP Decision Makers for rework. [137371] However, we remain committed to continuously improving face-to-face assessment and the whole WCA Mr Hoban: The requested information is not available. process to ensure that it is as fair and accurate as possible. We have, for example, implemented Professor Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Harrington’s recommendations to improve the face-to-face Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the assessment including: average cost per claimant of conducting (a) an initial Monitoring of free text used in reports; and work capability assessment and (b) a reassessment. [137415] Offering IT training for healthcare professionals to allow them to feel more confident in using appropriate amounts of free text in their reports. Mr Hoban: Releasing details of Atos Healthcare’s underlying financial model, in particular details of the Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for unit cost of each assessment/reassessment that they Work and Pensions (1) how many people with (a) have factored into the contract would, or would be Parkinson’s disease and (b) progressive conditions likely to, prejudice their commercial interests. have undergone multiple work capability assessments It would reveal to their competitors commercially since the introduction of those assessments; [137370] sensitive financial aspects of their contract which would (2) how many people with (a) Parkinson’s disease disadvantage Atos Healthcare’s competitive position in and (b) progressive conditions who have undergone the marketplace. This in turn would prejudice the ability multiple work capability assessments have received of the Department to secure best value for the taxpayer lower points scores when they have been reassessed. when the contract is re-tendered. [137372] Release of this type of key financial information would also undermine the effectiveness of the Department’s Mr Hoban: Of all new employment and support future dealings with Atos Healthcare or other service allowance (ESA) claims starting between October 2008 providers which is also not in the public interest. and February 2012, the latest date for which data is available, around 730 claimants have Parkinson’s disease Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for recorded as the main health condition and have Work and Pensions what training is given to subsequently undergone at least one further Work employment and support allowance decision-makers Capability Assessment (WCA) as part of the same ESA regarding progressive conditions; and if he will make a claim. statement. [137432] Data on the health conditions recorded is based on Mr Hoban: Employment and support allowance (ESA) the World Health Organisation’s International Classification decision makers training provides an understanding of of Diseases, 2010 (ICD10): the WCA descriptors that indicate how a customer’s http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/ health condition affects their day-to-day functionality. Due to the large number of health conditions described This element of their learning was developed by Atos by ICD10 it would be possible to identify those considered Healthcare who carry out ESA Work Capability “progressive” only at excessive cost to the Department. Assessments. Staff deciding on claims for ESA are also Decisions on entitlement to ESA rest solely with the trained to seek help from an ATOS health care professional Department’s decision makers taking into account the if they require specific information regarding the effects medical assessment reports from Atos and any other of a health condition on the individual. relevant information. This includes, but is not limited In addition, they have intranet access to the Customer to, the points awarded by the Atos Healthcare Professional Case Management System which provides an overview at the face-to-face assessment. Claimants may be placed of medical conditions. Learning for ESA decision makers 725W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 726W refers these decision makers to this site for explanations Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for of medical terminology and conditions including those Justice (1) what recent discussions officials in his of a progressive nature. Department have had with representatives of (a) the Home Department, (b) police forces and (c) coroners’ Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for offices on the use by coroners’ offices of police officers Work and Pensions how many people with (a) in investigations of asbestos-related deaths; and what Parkinson’s disease and (b) other progressive the outcome of such discussions has been; [136305] conditions placed in the Work Related Activity Group of employment and support allowance have been (2) whether coroners have access to (a) medical reassessed; and how many such people were found fit records held by local health bodies, (b) documentation relating to completed or ongoing civil compensation to work following that reassessment. [137433] claims and (c) records of state industrial disease Mr Hoban: Around 360 people with Parkinson’s benefits in the course of coronial investigations into disease in the Work Related Activity Group have undergone asbestos-related deaths. [136306] a repeat assessment following their initial assessment for a new employment and support allowance claim. Of Mrs Grant: Ministry of Justice officials have not these, around 20 people with Parkinson’s disease were attended any recent meetings regarding coroner found Fit for Work at their first repeat assessment. This investigations of asbestos-related deaths. includes all new claims starting up to the end of February The Ministry of Justice has responsibility for coroner 2012 (the latest data available). law and policy only. Coroners are solely responsible for Data on the health conditions recorded is based on the way they conduct their investigations. the World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases, 2010 (ICD10): Criminal Injuries Compensation http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/ Due to the large number of health conditions described Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice by ICD10 it would only be possible to identify those with reference to the Criminal Injuries Compensation considered “progressive” at excessive cost to the Scheme 2001, whether the then Government intended Department. that an applicant who suffered a criminal injury before Claimants with Parkinson’s disease may perform better 1 October 1979 but who successfully applied to have at subsequent work capability assessment in some instances their case medically reopened on or after 1 April 2001 since, while the underlying condition is unlikely to would have their loss of earnings claim capped at a improve, a patient’s treatment could be changed or figure based on average industrial earnings whilst optimised with a resulting improvement in function. benefits are deducted using current prices; if he will consider taking steps to mitigate the effects of using All figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 cases. this methodology to ensure that such applicants receive a minimum level of compensation; and if he will consider allocating funding for retrospective payments JUSTICE to previous claimants. [136461]

Coroners Mrs Grant: I cannot be sure what a previous Government’s intentions were. The Criminal Injuries Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Compensation Scheme 2001 provided that cases which Justice (1) how many inquests were carried out for were reopened would be dealt with according to the asbestos-related deaths in England and Wales in each terms of the Scheme under which the initial application of the last three years; [135896] was decided. Similar provisions apply currently under (2) what steps the Coroner Service takes to make the 2012 Scheme. people with asbestos-related disease and their families The Government has no plans to consider allocating aware during their lifetimes of the role of the Coroner funding for retrospective payments to previous claimants. Service in investigating deaths due to asbestos-related disease. [135897] Employment Agencies

Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice collects and Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice publishes annual statistics on the number of inquests what the total spending on recruitment agencies by his held by coroners including those following deaths from Department was in each month from July to December industrial diseases, but it does not specifically collect 2012. [135216] statistics about inquests into asbestos related deaths. The latest statistical publication can be found here: Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice holds the following http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/mojstats/ contracts with recruitment agencies: coroners-stats/coroners-bulletin-2011.pdf Hays—Agency staff (NOMS) A coroner’s jurisdiction is derived from the presence of a body lying within their district so they do not have Brookstreet—Agency staff (NOMS, HMCTS and MOJ HQ) a role in end of life care. However, the Ministry of Capita—Interim managers/specialist contractors (NOMS and Justice has published a ‘Guide to Coroners and Inquests MOJ HQ) and Charter for coroner services’which includes information Gatenby Sanderson—Public appointments (MOJ HQ) on inquests into deaths from industrial disease. The The amount of monies paid to recruitment agencies guide can be found here: to cover their fees and costs for temporary staff, such as http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/burials-and-coroners/ agency (clerical and administrative) staff, interim managers guide-charter-coroner.pdf and specialist contractors together with the fees incurred 727W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 728W for sourcing staff (public appointments). Spend data administrative resource, increased access to hearing estate for December 2012 is an estimate amount as the exact and the review and continuous improvement of figures are not yet known. administrative processes both internally and between HMCTS and DWP. £

July 2012 4,434,418 G4S August 2012 4,774,359 September 2012 4,937,358 Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for October 2012 5,524,824 Justice (1) whether his Department is satisfied that the November 2012 5,005,087 G4S contract to provide his Department with a total December 2012 4,184,316 facilities management service which commenced on 1 February 2012 is being fulfilled as specified in the Employment and Support Allowance: Coventry contract; [137055] (2) what recent assessment he has made of the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation and operation of the total facilities Justice how many appellants in Coventry are waiting management service contract which commenced on for the Tribunals Service to list their First-tier Tribunal 1 February 2012 between his Department and G4S to Social Security and Child Support appeal in respect of service facilities in court tribunal and administrative employment and support allowance. [136371] buildings. [137056] Mrs Grant: The First-tier Tribunal—Social Security and Child Support (SSCS), administered by Her Majesty’s Jeremy Wright: The total facilities management contract Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS), hears appeals between the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) and G4S has against Department for Work and Pensions decisions been operational since 1 February 2012. During the on entitlement to employment and support allowance three month mobilisation period and post go live MOJ (ESA). and G4S have worked together, utilising the contract’s There are always a number of ’live’ appeals at the comprehensive system for continual measurement of various stages of processing before being listed for a contractual performance, to enable transition of the tribunal hearing. The SSCS Tribunal does not hold the delivery of services to a ‘Business as Usual’ steady state. information on the live load broken down by benefit to This is identifying areas requiring improvement and specific venues. Information on the overall total of areas that may be delivered more efficiently. All necessary appeals from appellants in the Coventry area was 3,000 improvements have or are being driven using contractual at 30 June 2012 (the most recent period for which remedies and tools. Improvement is still needed in specific statistics have been published). This data is taken from areas in order for the contractor to fully meet their management information and figures have been rounded. contractual requirements. MOJ and G4S remain committed to working together to achieve full delivery of the All appeals to the SSCS Tribunal are registered in the services. processing centre in the region where the appellant lives, and the data on the load broken down by benefit can be The total facilities management contract between the provided at the level of these processing centres. Ministry of Justice and G4S includes a comprehensive system for continual measurement of contractual For appellants living in the Coventry area appeals are performance, on a monthly basis, using key performance registered in the Birmingham Administrative Support indicators (KPIs). This system serves two primary functions: Centre (ASC) which covers East and West Midlands firstly to provide the MOJ and the contractor with an and East of England Government Regions and part of understanding of the current level of performance against London Government Office Region. At 30 June 2012 the contract specification per affected property; and (the most recent period for which statistics have been secondly to trigger a payment mechanism that is directly published) there were a total of 29,100 ESA appeals proportional (in terms of profit adjustment) to the level waiting to be heard in venues administered by the ASC of service provided, per affected property. out of an overall total of 62,200 appeals waiting to be heard in the regions covered by the ASC. Personal Injury: Compensation HMCTS has continued to respond strongly to the significant increase in the number of appeals received by the SSCS Tribunal. Two additional venues (in Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Leamington Spa and Nuneaton) have been in use since what assessment he has made of the cumulative effect November to hear some appeals which would previously of raising the small claims limit in personal injury cases have been heard at the Coventry venue. These additional and reducing fixed recoverable costs through the road venues have provided the capacity for an additional 36 traffic accident portal. [137001] sessions in November and 40 sessions in December and will continue to provide additional capacity, enabling Mrs Grant: An impact assessment has been published the clearance of 500 appeals each month. This will with the consultation paper ‘Reducing the number and reduce the number of appeals waiting to be heard at costs of whiplash claims’. This includes an assessment Coventry and, therefore, help reduce the outstanding of the impact of the proposals on the Road Traffic caseload and bring down the average waiting time for Accident Pre-action Protocol, and a question has been an appeal hearing. asked about this in the consultation paper. Both documents Work to increase the Tribunal’s capacity nationally is are available to download from the Ministry of Justice also under way.This includes the recruitment of additional website at: fee-paid judges and medical members, increased www.justice.gov.uk/consultations 729W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 730W

Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The following table shows the number and proportion what the cost was of his Department’s consultation on of ESA appeals in which the work capability assessment raising the small claims limit that concluded in 2007; was a factor, that were found in favour of the appellant and what the estimated cost to his Department is of the in the financial year 2011-12 and from 1 April to current consultation on that matter. [137005] 30 June 2012 (the latest date for which information is available). Mrs Grant: The publication costs to the Ministry of Number and proportion of ESA (WCA) appeals found in favour of the appellant Justice of the current consultation have been £1,387. Total ESA Number of Percentage of No records have been retained of the costs of the 2007 (WCA) cases decisions in favour decisions in favour consultation, ‘Case track limits and the claims process cleared at hearing of appellant of the appellant for personal injury claims’, but they are likely to be 2011-12 159,800 63,300 40 similar. April- 40,800 17,300 43 June 2012 Temporary Employment Note: The above data is taken from management information and values are rounded Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to the nearest hundred. how many temporary staff have been recruited in his Young Offender Institutions Department in each month from July to December 2012. [135215] Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice holds the following Justice what the budget was of the secure youth estate contracts with recruitment agencies: in (a) 2012-13 and (b) 2011-12. [135277] Hays—Agency staff (NOMS) Jeremy Wright: The budget of the secure youth estate Brookstreet—Agency staff (NOMS, HMCTS and MOJ HQ) in (a) 2012-13 and (b) 2011-12 was as follows: Capita—Interim managers/specialist contractors (NOMS and (a) £245 million MOJ HQ) (b) £271 million The following table provides the information on the number of temporary staff recruited by the Ministry of These figures comprise the Youth Justice Board’s Justice for the period 1 July 2012 to 30 November 2012. budget for the commissioning of secure estate accommodation and associated services, and the Ministry Temporary staff are defined as staff recruited on of Justice budget for education contracts in public fixed terms contracts of less than 12 months (consistent Young Offender Institutions. with the Office for National Statistics definition) and agency and interim staff. A complete set of information Young Offenders: Reoffenders for December 2012 is not yet available. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of people (headcount) Justice what steps he is taking to tackle reoffending Agency and interim/ amongst offenders under the age of 18. [135264] specialist contractors Fixed term contract

July 2012 146 68 Jeremy Wright: Youth Justice and the prevention of August 2012 125 41 reoffending by young people is a key priority for this September 2012 189 67 Government and we are seeking to tackle reoffending in October 2012 206 90 a number of ways. November 2012 131 60 The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 contains a range of provisions to promote Temporary staff makes up a small proportion of the effective rehabilitation of young offenders. For example Department’s overall work force. Both the number of it promotes greater use of restorative justice by increasing temporary and permanent staff has, since September the flexibility of sentencing options available. 2010, been reducing in size. The use of temporary staff The Ministry of Justice is also making a significant enables the Department to flexibly respond to any contribution to cross-Government initiatives such as changes in demand for our services. the Department for Communities and Local Government Work Capability Assessment: Appeals led Troubled Families programme, which has a specific youth reoffending indicator. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for In order to address the high reoffending rates of Justice how many and what proportion of appeals young people leaving custody, we are also reviewing the against Atos work capability assessments were whole youth custody system, with a view to putting an successful in the last year for which figures are increased focus on education at its heart. available. [137397] Youth Courts Mrs Grant: The First-tier Tribunal—Social Security and Child Support (SSCS), administered by Her Majesty’s Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Courts and Tribunals Service, hears appeals against Justice how much money his Department plans to Department for Work and Pensions’ decisions on spend on improving youth courts by 2015. [135265] entitlement to employment and support allowance (ESA), decisions in which the work capability assessment (WCA) Jeremy Wright: There is no separate budgetary provision is a key factor, rather than appeals against WCA decisions between youth and adult courts. Courtrooms for youth themselves. court cases are located in existing magistrates courts. 731W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 732W

The court estate is currently maintained via the capital Elizabeth Truss: The non-statutory framework for maintenance programme which serves to identify and Personal, Social, Health and Economic (PSHE) education address required maintenance to ensure the HM Courts already provides a context for teaching young people and Tribunals Service estate is safe and fit for purpose. about emergency lifesaving skills (ELS). At primary The youth court estate is part of this maintenance level, pupils can learn about basic emergency procedures portfolio. and where to get help, and at secondary level they can develop the skills to cope with emergency situations that require basic first aid procedures, including resuscitation EDUCATION techniques. Chequers Schools are also free to support their teaching by Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for using reputable organisations to deliver training where Education on how many occasions he has attended that meets the needs of their pupils. Chequers in an official capacity in each of the last 12 months. [136588] Official Engagements

Elizabeth Truss: The Secretary of State for Education, Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath Education if he will list his official engagements for (Michael Gove), has visited Chequers once in the last 7 January 2013. [136587] 12 months. English Baccalaureate Elizabeth Truss: The Secretary of State for Education, Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath Education how many students in each local authority (Michael Gove), attended Cabinet and met Mary Bousted. area obtained an English Baccalaureate qualification; He also held a range of departmental meetings with and what proportion of eligible students (a) nationally ministerial colleagues and others. and (b) in each local authority area gained such Official Visits qualifications in the last year for which figures are available. [136278] Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Elizabeth Truss: The information requested is available Education how many visits were made by the in the statistical first release (SFR), “GCSE and Equivalent Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education Results (Provisional) and National Curriculum Teacher and Childcare in each month since May 2008. [134882] Assessments at Key Stage 3 in England, 2011/12”. This publication is available from the Department’s website Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 7 January 2013]: at the following link: Since my appointment in September 2012,1 have made http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ 10 official visits as follows: recentreleases/a00214981/gcse-national-curriculum-teacher- September 2012: assessment-ks3-england No visits. Table 18 shows the English Baccalaureate by local authority and region. October 2012: This information will be updated at 9.30 am on Ormiston Victory Academy, Norwich Thursday 24 January 2013 in the SFR: “GCSE and Visit to France, including to various childcare providers equivalent results in England, 2011/12 (Revised)”, and Isaac Newton Institute, Cambridge will be available from the Department’s website at the November 2012: following link: Brigshaw High School (‘The Old School’), Allerton Bywater http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ David Young Academy, Leeds a00219173/gcse-and-equivalent-results Chapel Town Children’s Centre, Leeds Financial Services: Education Woodberry Down Community Primary School, London Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Visit to Germany, including to various schools Education whether he proposes that England will be a Loughborough Children’s Centre, London signatory to the Organisation for Economic December 2012: Co-operation and Development PISA 2015 Financial No visits. Literacy Assessment. [136444] January 2013: Elizabeth Truss: The Department is considering the Durand Academy Early Years, London costs and benefits of England’s participation in the optional components of the Organisation for Economic Pupils: Disadvantaged Co-operation and Development’s PISA 2015 study, including the assessment of financial literacy.The Secretary Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member Education how many students residing in Luton for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), will take a decision unitary authority area were (a) eligible for and (b) shortly. successfully applied for the pupil premium in each year First Aid: Education from its introduction to 2012. [136585] Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws [holding answer 14 January 2013]: The Education what steps he is taking to promote the Pupil Premium was introduced in April 2011. Pupil teaching of emergency life skills in schools. [136625] Premium funding is provided to schools which have on 733W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 734W roll pupils known to be eligible for free school meals funding for the Deprivation and Looked After Child (the Deprivation Premium); children in care who have Premium to increase to £900 per pupil and the Service been continuously looked after for at least six months Child Premium to increase to £300 per pupil. Illustrative (the Looked After Child Premium); and children whose Pupil Premium allocations using January 2012 pupil parents are serving in the armed forces (the Service numbers show that Luton local authority will receive Child Premium). approximately £9.755 million of Pupil Premium funding In the financial year 2011-12, 7,470 pupils attending in 2013-14 for 10,840 eligible pupils attending Luton schools in Luton local authority area were eligible for schools. A break-down of this figure by pupil age group the Deprivation Premium, the Looked After Child Premium is at Annex A. Final allocations will be available next or Service Child Premium, attracting £3.642 million. summer when pupil numbers from the January 2013 school census are confirmed. In the financial year 2012-13, 10,840 pupils attending schools in Luton local authority area were eligible for The Department has calculated these Pupil Premium the Deprivation Premium, the Looked After Child Premium figures based on pupils who attend schools in Luton. or Service Child Premium, attracting £6.753 million. We are unable to provide information on those pupils who actually reside in Luton local authority without The Department has calculated these Pupil Premium incurring disproportionate cost. figures based on pupils who attend schools in Luton. We are unable to provide information on those pupils We do not have estimates for the numbers of pupils who actually reside in Luton local authority without who will be eligible for the Pupil Premium in Luton incurring disproportionate cost. local authority between 2014 and 2016. Pupil Premium eligibility will be determined by the number of pupils In 2013-14 Pupil Premium funding will rise from who receive Free School Meals. £1.25 billion to £1.875 billion per year. This will enable the level of funding for the Deprivation and Looked Annex A After Child Premium to increase to about £900 per Illustrative Pupil Premium allocations based on pupils attending schools in Luton pupil and the Service Child Premium will increase to local authority in 2013-14 about £300 per pupil—these values are estimates and Provisional number of pupils Provisional amount of Pupil entitled to Pupil Premium in Premium funding in 2013-14 actual figures will be calculated when exact pupil numbers Age 2013-14 (£) are known. 4 685 615,900 Pupils do not have to specifically register or apply for 5 787 708,300 the Pupil Premium as we identify eligible pupils from 6 933 839,700 the School Census return, local authority return SSDA903 7 922 829,200 (which provides information on children looked after 8 983 884,700 by local authorities) and Ministry of Defence child 9 994 894,600 pensions data. 10 913 821,700 We are unable to identify how many pupils in Luton 11 981 882,900 local authority may be eligible for Pupil Premium funding 12 920.5 828,450 but are not attracting it because they do not claim Free 13 899 807,900 School Meals (FSM). At a national level, benefits data 14 915 823,500 from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs suggests that 15 903 812,700 around 200,000 pupils aged four to 15 in England are 16 6 5,400 entitled to receive FSM but are not currently claiming Total 10,840 9,755,000 them. Some of these pupils may still be receiving the Notes: Pupil Premium through our “Ever 6” FSM measure 1. There may be discrepancies between the sum of constituent items and totals as shown due to rounding. which extends eligibility to pupils who have claimed 2. The table uses pupil numbers based on January 2012 census data using full FSM at any point in the last six years. It is nevertheless time equivalent (FTE) numbers of pupils aged four and over with age calculated important that all eligible pupils are registered for FSMs as at 31 August 2011. 3. The table uses Pupil Premium funding levels for 2013-14—the Deprivation to ensure that pupils receive a healthy school meal, and and Looked After Child Premium will be £900 per pupil and the Service Child that schools are able to attract the appropriate Pupil Premium will be £300 per pupil. Premium funding for their disadvantaged pupils. That is why the Department has recently published research which highlights local areas where take-up rates are Reading: Tower Hamlets low.1 1 ‘Pupils not claiming free school meals’ research can be found Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for here: Education (1) how many pupils in Tower Hamlets https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/RSG/ participated in the Every Child a Reader scheme for AllPublications/Page1/DFE-RR235 reading recovery in 2010-11 and 2011-12; [136626] (2) what assessment he has made of the (a) value for Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for money and (b) effectiveness of the Every Child a Education what recent estimate he has made of the Reader scheme in raising attainment for individual number of students residing in Luton unitary authority pupils and schools in Tower Hamlets. [136627] area that will be eligible for the pupil premium in each year from 2013 to 2016, by annual cohort. [136586] Mr Laws: In 2010-11, 363 children participated in the Every Child a Reader scheme in Tower Hamlets, of Mr Laws [holding answer 14 January 2013]: In 2013-14, whom 323 received the Reading Recovery intervention. total Pupil Premium funding will rise from £1.25 billion In 2011-12, 313 children participated in the scheme, of to £1.875 billion per year. This will enable the level of whom 269 received the Reading Recovery intervention. 735W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 736W

We have not made any specific assessment of the Young People: Unemployment value for money or effectiveness of the Every Child a Reader scheme in Tower Hamlets. However, an independent Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for evaluation of the national programme was published by Education what recent steps he has taken to support 16 the Department in May 2011. to 24-year-olds not in employment, education or Among the key findings of the report was that Every training. [136775] Child a Reader had an overall positive impact on school Mr Laws: We are raising the age of compulsory level reading and writing attainment and that Reading participation in education or training in England to Recovery had a positive impact on reading. 17 later this year and to 18 in 2015. We are spending a The full evaluation report is available on the Department’s record £7.5 billion in 2012-13 to ensure that there are website. sufficient education and training places for all 16 to ECaR Evaluation—Main Report 19-year-olds in England who wish to remain in education ECaR Evaluation—Technical Report and training. Young people who are not in education, employment Schools: Tower Hamlets or training are often focused on employment, but lack the necessary skills or experience to secure sustainable Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for jobs. On 10 January, the Government published a discussion Education what budget he plans to provide for schools paper on a proposed new Traineeships programme—this capital expenditure in Tower Hamlets between 2011-12 is available at: and 2016-17. [136624] www.education.gov.uk/traineeships Traineeships would provide young people aged 16 to 24 Mr Laws: Capital support for schools in Tower Hamlets in England with a flexible package of support including in 2011-12 totalled £88.5 million (including £68.8 million work skills training, high quality work experience, English for Building Schools for the Future projects), and in and mathematics. This will equip young people with the 2012-13 is currently expected to total £75.9 million skills they need to compete for apprenticeships and (including £52.9 million for BSF projects). An other jobs. announcement about allocations for 2013-14 and 2014-15 Education and training is an area of devolved will be made shortly. Government spending decisions responsibility. Information about education and training for 2015-16 and beyond are yet to be announced. provision for young people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is available from devolved Schools: Work Experience Administrations. Across Great Britain, young unemployed people receive Seema Malhotra: To ask the Secretary of State for intensive support from Jobcentre Plus and from the Education how many secondary schools in (a) Government’s new Work programme to help them look Feltham and Heston constituency, (b) London and for work, develop their skills and secure real, lasting (c) the UK will not be running work experience jobs. In addition, we are spending almost £1 billion to schemes in 2013. [136144] provide additional targeted help through the Youth Contract, including through work experience and wage Matthew Hancock [holding answer 10 January 2013]: incentives. Schools are currently not required to provide information about work experience and therefore we do not hold the information requested. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT From September 2013 it will be a requirement for schools and colleges to record work experience by 16 to Charities: Finance 18-year-olds as a part of Government plans to expand provision for this age group. This means we will have Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for access to this information in future academic years. Communities and Local Government how much and what proportion of expenditure was allocated to charities by each local authority in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 Sick Leave and (c) 2012. [137003]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Foster: This is not information the Department Education pursuant to the answer of 17 December holds or requires from local authorities. 2012, Official Report, column 597W, on sick leave, if he We are reining in top-down inspection and micro- will make an assessment of the contribution management of local government. Instead we are increasing mindfulness-based practice can make to reducing local accountability of local government, such as through workplace stress and staff absences in his Department. the Code of Recommended Practice for Local Authorities [136208] on Data Transparency which enshrines the principles of transparency and sets out minimum expectations of Elizabeth Truss: The Department has no plans to what data should be published, thereby empowering assess the effectiveness of mindfulness-based practices. local people to scrutinise the spending decisions of The Department is committed to supporting the well-being local councils. The publication of spend data over £500, of its employees and has a number of procedures and grants to the voluntary and community sector, and policies in place to achieve that, These include occupational copies of contracts and tenders to business and the health assessments used to identify specific support or voluntary, community and social enterprise sector form adjustments for employees that are suffering from stress. part of that minimum expectation. 737W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 738W

The Department has recently consulted on updating season ticket advance abuses. For one of these cases the Code of Recommended Practice and making it a police were involved but did not charge the individual legal requirement to publish data specified in the code. with any offence. Officials are currently considering the responses. The The total value of £5,105 was recovered from both Local Government Association has also recently consulted individuals and they were dismissed. on publishing voluntary and community sector spending data, so they can help local authorities publish this Green Belt information in a useful and comparable way.

Cycling Mr Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for policy is on local authorities proposing to build on Communities and Local Government if he will provide Green Belt land as part of their development plan. details on the scheme to reimburse staff in his [136632] Department for cycling mileage; and how much such reimbursements have cost his Department in each year Nick Boles: The Government attaches great importance since 2010. [137383] to Green Belt protection and the coalition agreement pledges to maintain its safeguards. The fundamental Brandon Lewis: The Department allows staff to claim aim of Green Belt policy is to prevent urban sprawl by for business mileage travelled by a bicycle, as opposed keeping land permanently open; the essential characteristics to travelling to a business meeting by car or train. The of Green Belts are their openness and their permanence. Department pays the prevailing HMRC rate. Green Belt serves: £14.20 has been claimed since 2010-11. This reflects to check the unrestricted sprawl of large built-up areas; the practical fact that staff are unlikely to travel a very to prevent neighbouring towns merging into one another; long distance by bicycle, as opposed to travelling by car to assist in safeguarding the countryside from encroachment; or train, etc. to preserve the setting and special character of historic towns; My Department also operates a Cycle to Work scheme and for staff, but this is separate from business mileage. to assist in urban regeneration, by encouraging the recycling of derelict and other urban land. Dogs Green Belt policy, as outlined in Chapter 9 of the National Planning Policy Framework, is clear that most Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State forms of new development are inappropriate development for Communities and Local Government what the in the Green Belt and should not be approved other kennelling costs to all local authorities due to than in very special circumstances. Similarly, Green Belt dangerous or stray dogs in England and Wales were in boundaries should not be altered other than in exceptional 2012. [137211] circumstances, through the preparation or review of Local Plans, a process involving public consultation Brandon Lewis: These figures are not held centrally. and robust, independent examination in public. Fire Services: Greater London There is some brownfield land in the Green Belt, for example, disused quarries or scrap-yards, and local councils can consider putting such brownfield land to Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for better use in a way which is consistent with Green Belt Communities and Local Government what recent policy and provided they preserve the openness of the discussions he has had with the London Fire Authority Green Belt. regarding the management of the AssetCo contract. [136655] It is the Government’s policy to revoke the remaining Regional Strategies of the last Administration, subject Brandon Lewis: This is an operational matter for the to the outcome of environment assessments currently London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority, which under way. This will remove top-down pressure to review is overseen by the London Mayor Assembly. Green Belt boundaries in around 30 areas across England. Ministers regularly meet with representatives of local government to discuss a range of matters; such meetings Local Government: Equal Pay are published on my Department’s website. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Fraud Communities and Local Government what steps he is taking to assist local authorities in meeting Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements for equal pay for men and women; and if Communities and Local Government pursuant to the he will make a statement. [136522] answer of 9 January 2013, Official Report, column 277W, on fraud, if he will provide specific details of the Brandon Lewis: This Government remains fully two cases of fraud experienced by his Department in committed to equality and to equal pay in every workforce. July 2010; and whether any police arrests were made. However, local authorities are independent employers [137384] in their own right and the Government has no role in the way they manage their workforces, including how Brandon Lewis: The two cases of fraud experienced they exercise their responsibilities to ensure they comply by the Department, in July 2010; were both related to with equal pay legislation. 739W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 740W

The Government recognises that some authorities Parking: Morecambe may still be seeking to manage costs arising from equal pay claims. In announcing the Provisional Local Government Settlement on 19 December 2012, the Secretary David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for of State for Communities and Local Government, my Communities and Local Government if he will assist in right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar establishing a free parking scheme in Morecambe. (Mr Pickles), confirmed that he would be taking steps [136257] to enable authorities to use capital receipts from asset sales raised in or after 2012-13 to fund outstanding Mr Prisk [holding answer 10 January 2013]: The equal pay costs. In addition, the Government proposes Government is supporting the Morecambe town team to amend relevant regulations to extend an accounting bid—one of the 27 Portas Pilot areas benefiting from flexibility allowing authorities not to charge such costs up to £100,000 and a comprehensive package of support to their revenues until payments are due. This flexibility, to test their plans, including those for parking. which would otherwise end on 1 April 2013, would be In relation to free parking, I refer my hon. Friend to extended to 1 April 2016. my answer of 1 November 2012, Official Report, columns 345-46W.

Local Government: Newspaper Press Shops

Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will make it Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for his policy to allow local authorities to publish statutory Communities and Local Government pursuant to the notices only on their websites rather than in local answer of 7 January 2013, Official Report, column 130W, on shops, what his Department’s projections are newspapers. [136541] for the sales profits and surplus rental income of the pop-up shop at Eland House for the year 2013. Brandon Lewis: The purpose of statutory notices is to [136562] ensure that the public are informed of decisions by their local authority which may affect their quality of life, local amenity or their property. This is especially the Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to my previous case in relation to planning applications, where there is answer. This is a matter for StartUp Britain. a limited period for local residents to make representations. Notwithstanding, Ministers have been clear that, in Social Enterprises an internet age, commercial newspapers should expect over time less state advertising as more information is Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for syndicated online by local authorities for free. The Communities and Local Government what guidance flipside is the free press should not face state unfair his Department issues to local authorities on the competition from town hall newspapers and municipal accountability and regulatory arrangements for social propaganda dressed up as local reporting. enterprises delivering services under commission from local authorities using public funds; and if he will make a statement. [136648] Non-domestic Rates Brandon Lewis: Ministers have not issued guidance to Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities on these matters. Local authorities Communities and Local Government what steps he is remain accountable for the performance of their statutory taking to review the business rate multiplier; and if he functions. When they commission other organisations will make a statement. [136441] to deliver services on their behalf, they must put appropriate oversight arrangements in place. Brandon Lewis: The Government’s commitment to The Government values social enterprise activity for the annual Retail Price Index cap means that there has its ability to remain financially self-sustaining while been no real terms increase in business rates since 1990. seeking innovative ways to serve an important social We announced in the autumn statement of 5 December purpose. The Department issued best value guidance in 2012, Official Report, columns 871-882, a further one 2011 which made it clear that local authorities should year extension—making three and a half years in total—of be responsive to the benefits and needs of voluntary the temporary doubling of Small Business-Rate Relief. and community sector organisations of all sizes, and The increased level of relief will therefore apply throughout should not seek pass on larger funding reductions to the whole of the 2013-14 billing year. local authorities than they take on themselves. This can We also announced a new measure which will mean be found at: that empty new builds will be exempt from empty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ property rates for up to 18 months up to state aid limits attachment_data/file/5945/1976926.pdf between 1 October 2013 and 31 October 2016. Further support on business rates would need to be Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for balanced against the costs involved, the targeted support Communities and Local Government what discussions we have already provided on business rates and the he has had with the Minister for the Cabinet Office on overriding need to reduce public expenditure and support plans to introduce social enterprise zones; and if he will the economy generally by reducing the deficit. make a statement. [137430] 741W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 742W

Mr Prisk: Ministers within the Department for Video Conferencing Communities and Local Government regularly meet colleagues from other Departments to discuss a range Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for of matters. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 9 January 2013, Official Report, columns 279-80W, on video conferencing, if he will provide Social Rented Housing details of his Department’s inclusive call tariff. [137382]

Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: As part of its main ICT solution the Communities and Local Government if he will Department maintains a number of data circuits that estimate the gap between demand and supply of social link DCLG sites to each other to make an internal housing in (a) Greater London and (b) the UK; and if network. All video conference calls that involve he will make a statement. [136712] departmental sites are routed via this established internal network to ensure that there are no additional call Mr Prisk: There were 1.85 million households on charges incurred. The call tariff is therefore zero for local authority waiting lists in England on 1 April 2012, internal video conference calls. 380,000 of whom were in London. During 2011-12, 250,000 social housing lettings were made to tenants new to social housing in England, 31,000 of which were PRIME MINISTER in London. Cabinet: Chequers Under the previous Administration housing waiting lists rose from 1.02 million in 1997 to 1.76 million in Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Prime Minister how 2010. At the same time, the social housing stock decreased many Cabinet meetings have taken place at Chequers from 4.4 million in England in 1997 to 4.0 million in since September 2011. [136962] 2010. The Prime Minister: None. This Government has taken steps to address this Development Aid situation by increasing the supply of affordable housing and by reforming the social housing system so that local Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Prime Minister what his authorities and social landlords can make more efficient priorities are for the next meeting of the UN High use of the social housing stock. It is important to Level Panel on the post-2015 development framework. appreciate that these reforms have only recently been [137453] enacted and the current waiting list is reflective of the outdated system they replace. The Prime Minister: My objective for the High Level Panel meeting in Monrovia is to build further consensus 170,000 more affordable homes are being delivered on the panel’s proposals, including on how to tackle the across England during this spending review period underlying causes of poverty. (2011 to 2015) with £19.5 billion investment—with Government providing £4.5 billion and the private sector Food Banks £15 billion. Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Prime Minister whether Within London, I also note that the Mayor’s proposed he has received any invitations to visit food banks since Housing Strategy states: May 2010; and whether he plans to accept any current “£1.8 billion of public funding has been secured by the Mayor invitations. [137073] which will unlock an estimated additional £3.7 billion of other investment for London to enable 55,000 affordable homes to be The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the delivered between 2011-15.” answer I gave to her on 29 November 2012, Official (Mayor of London, ‘The Revised London Housing Strategy’, Report, column 455W. December 2011, p.35). Almost 58,000 affordable homes were delivered in 2011-12. This is a third more than the average delivery BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS in the ten years between 2000-01 and 2009-10. Data Protection Last year the Housing and Communities Agency exceeded its target by over 13,000. Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for The Localism Act 2011 has made radical reforms to Business, Innovation and Skills on how many the social housing system. Local authorities are now occasions each Minister in his Department carried able to decide who qualifies for social housing their area classified documents on public transport in the last and social landlords are free to match the length of 12 months for which information is available. [137118] tenancy to the needs, of the household. Jo Swinson: This information is not held. Ministers By making full use of these new freedoms, local handle official information in accordance with Government authorities and social landlords can use their social guidance. housing stock in a way which best meets the needs of Export Credit Guarantees: Argentina their local area. The Prevention of Social Housing Fraud Bill, subject Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for to the approval of Parliament, will ensure that tenants Business, Innovation and Skills what recent who choose to cheat the system can be detected more representations he has had from (a) individuals and easily so that the homes they occupy can be reallocated (b) groups regarding the £45 million in debts owed to to those in genuine need on the waiting list. UK Export Finance by Argentina. [136352] 743W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 744W

Michael Fallon: Including the hon. Member’s earlier The Under-Secretary of State for Employment Relations parliamentary question (136356) and ministerial letter, and Consumer Affairs, the hon. Member for East UK Export Finance has received five inquiries in the Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), led a discussion on industrial last 12 months: strategy at a meeting of the Scottish Business Board three from individuals; and chaired by the Secretary of State for Scotland, the right two from groups. hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Michael Moore), on 26 November 2012. Attending Fireworks that meeting were the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), Business, Innovation and Skills what information his and business leaders and officials from both the Scottish Department holds on the amount of spending by Government and the Scotland Office. members of the public on fireworks in the last year for In addition, BIS officials visited Scotland in September which figures are available. [137363] 2012 to discuss the planned sector specific industrial strategies and have continued to engage with them Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation subsequently. and Skills does not hold this information nor is it Each of the 11 sector teams leading the development available from the Office for National Statistics. Trade of the sector strategies is also engaging with all of the data from HMRC indicate that the UK imported nearly devolved Administrations and Territorial Offices, including £23 million of fireworks in 2011 and there is no significant the Scottish Government and the Scotland Office. UK firework production. However, there is no indication of what proportion of these imports were purchased or used by members of the public as opposed to being PAYE used in professionally organised firework displays. Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Manufacturing Industries: Ashfield Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps his Department is taking to prepare small and medium- Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for sized enterprises for the introduction of real-time Business, Innovation and Skills what steps UK Trade PAYE; and if he will make a statement; [136442] and Investment has taken to (a) promote and (b) (2) what estimate he has made of the preparedness of encourage investment in manufacturing industries in small and medium-sized enterprises for the Ashfield constituency. [136940] introduction of real-time PAYE; and if he will make a statement. [136443] Michael Fallon: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) is engaging closely with all local enterprise partnerships (LEPs) to maximise opportunities for collaboration at Michael Fallon: BIS helps small and medium-sized the local level, including identifying local strengths and enterprises (SMEs) prepare for the introduction of real-time opportunities for foreign investors and developing local PAYE. This includes meetings with SME representatives propositions in response to specific inquiries. and, professional bodies to hear their concerns and relay them to HMRC for their consideration as they In Nottinghamshire the Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham have developed the design of the real-time information and Nottinghamshire LEP (D2N2) promotes inward (RTI) system and the support and guidance for SMEs. investment in the local area. D2N2 has signed an agreement For example HMRC have recently published some specific with UKTI’s delivery partner on local investment so easements to the requirement to report RTI to HMRC that it has access to all inward investment inquiries and “on or before” the date employees are paid. in addition UKTI is beginning work on a series of marketing initiatives which will seek to increase awareness BIS and HMRC meet on a monthly basis to ensure of the local offer among its overseas network. both Departments are engaging with their customers on PAYE real time information, particularly small and The LEP has also recently been successful in securing micro businesses. BIS has also provided HMRC with a multi million Regional Growth Fund bid, which, additional opportunities to raise awareness of real time following due diligence, should be open to manufacturing PAYE through our SME intermediary networks and businesses. written communications. This opportunity has the potential to allow manufacturers HMRC RTI communications and awareness plans to become more competitive and will add to the appeal that employers, particularly small employers, want to of the area in attracting inward investment. know about change at the time they need to take action. Manufacturing Industries: Scotland HMRC wrote to all employers in October 2012 telling them what they needed to do to prepare for real-time Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for PAYE and HMRC will be writing to employers again in Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions February 2013. They will continue to work closely with he has had with Ministers in the Scottish Government employers, payroll providers, software developers and on the planned sector-specific industrial strategies. business representatives to make it easy for employers [136874] to comply with operating PAYE in real-time, and to make it part of their normal payroll processes. Michael Fallon: BIS Minsters and officials are liaising HMRC is confident that awareness and preparedness with the devolved Administrations, including the Scottish are increasing in line with expectations. Employers in Government, to take forward the sector specific industrial the pilot told HMRC that it took six months on average strategies. to prepare. This information was used in deciding when 745W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 746W to intensify the awareness campaign. Results on awareness Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency have increased significantly between September and (HESA) collects and publishes data on qualifiers from November. UK higher education institutions (HEIs). Information BIS will continue its close engagement with HMRC on the number of UK, EU and Non-EU domiciled and its stakeholders on real-time PAYE as it is rolled students qualifying from Science, Technology, Engineering out. and Mathematics (STEM) courses from UK HEIs for Postgraduate Education the academic years 2009/10 to 2011/12 is provided in the Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for following table. Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) UK national and (b) foreign students graduated from UK Information for the academic year 2012/13 will become higher education institutions with (i) a doctoral and (ii) available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency a masters level science and technology degree in the last in January 2014. three years. [136460]

Postgraduate qualifiers1 from STEM2 courses by domicile3: UK higher education institutions: Academic years 2009/10 to 2011/12 Domicile Postgraduate level 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12

UK Doctorate 7,675 7,720 7,790 Masters 24,820 28,490 28,910 Other 10,255 10,920 10,925

Other EU Doctorate 1,850 1,895 1,860 Masters 5,575 6,535 7,250 Other 565 535 580

Non-EU Doctorate 3,495 3,905 4,125 Masters 22,315 26,580 27,510 Other 1,080 1,170 1,220 1 Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. 2 Subject information is shown as full person equivalents (FPEs) in the table. FPEs are derived by splitting student instances between the different subjects that make up their course aim. 3 Domicile refers to a student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to their course. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record

Students: Terminal Illnesses Jo Swinson: BIS officials recently met with representatives from some supermarkets and other retailers to discuss Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for how price indications which are not actually misleading, Business, Innovation and Skills what financial support could nevertheless be made clearer and more helpful. A is available to students who have suspended their further meeting is planned on this subject in the coming studies due to being diagnosed with a serious illness. months. [137407] This Department has not had any discussions with supermarkets about alleged misleading offers in their Mr Willetts: Full-time undergraduates in higher stores in the recent past. I understand, however, that education who have suspended their studies due to some supermarket companies have been engaged in illness, will continue to receive payments of grants and discussions with the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) during loans for living and other costs for the first 60 days of 2012 on how to avoid misleading consumers. absence from their course. Where the period of suspension exceeds 60 days, Misleading offers by any trader are already Student Finance England has discretion to continue regulated. The Consumer Protection from Unfair paying grants and loans for living and other costs to Trading Regulations (CPRs) 2008 make it an offence students who have suspended their studies. SFE will for businesses to mislead consumers as to the price of take into account the reasons for the student’s absence, products or the basis on which special offers are the length of the absence and the financial hardship made. The regulations are independently enforced by caused by withdrawing support, when making their local authority trading standards services and the decision. OFT. The OFT recently announced that it had reached an agreement with eight leading supermarket chains, Supermarkets: Unfair Practices who have agreed to a set of OFT principles to address concerns over special offers and promotions for food Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for and drink. The principles clarify the OFT’s view on Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps his how promotional claims should be used so that consumers Department is taking to tackle misleading supermarket can rely on them being fair and meaningful. A copy of offers; [136596] the OFT’s press notice can be found at: (2) what recent discussions his Department has had with supermarkets regarding misleading offers in their http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2012/116-12 stores. [136597] 747W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 748W

Women’s Library Church of England and the Catholic Church have been kept informed at every stage as we have developed the Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for Succession to the Crown Bill. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will discuss with London Metropolitan University its decision to divest its responsibilities for the Women’s Library based in CABINET OFFICE Bethnal Green and Bow and steps to ensure that the Business: East of England Library remains accessible to all in its current purpose built premises. [137168] Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Willetts: Higher education institutions are Office how many small and medium-sized businesses autonomous and responsible for how they manage their were operating in (a) Witham constituency, (b) Essex assets. The Women’s Library has now transferred to the and (c) the east of England in each year since 1997. London School of Economics (LSE), which is committed [137418] to its future. This year, the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) has provided some £90,000 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the of special funding to support the library and is in responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have discussion with LSE about future funding. asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Monarchy: Marriage concerning how many small and medium-sized businesses were operating in (a) Witham constituency, (b) Essex and (c) the East Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Deputy Prime of England in each year since 1997. (137418) Minister what discussions he has had with (a) the The table below represents the number of businesses operating Church of England and (b) the Roman Catholic in the Witham constituency, Essex and the East of England and Church on the status of a member of the Roman this has been defined by using a count of enterprises registered Catholic Church who married into the Royal Family for VAT and/or PAYE. Small businesses have been defined as and had a child. [137401] those with an employment between 0 and 49 and medium-sized businesses as those with an employment between 50 and 249. The Deputy Prime Minister: I have met with members Data are only available for the Witham constituency from of the Church of England and the Catholic Church on 2010 onwards as the constituency was only created in 2010. Data several occasions to discuss various issues. Both the for the region and county are available back to 2003.

East of England Essex county Witham constituency Small 0 to 49 Medium 50 to 249 Small 0 to 49 Medium 50 to 249 Small 0 to 49 Medium 50 to 249

2003 190,155 3,085 45,890 600 n/a n/a 2004 191,770 2,905 46,475 590 n/a n/a 2005 198,950 2,855 48,340 565 n/a n/a 2006 202,710 2,960 49,555 600 n/a n/a 2007 208,135 2,995 50,870 615 n/a n/a 2008 214,925 3,080 52,390 630 n/a n/a 2009 214,000 3,095 52,460 650 n/a n/a 2010 209,650 3,145 51,450 645 3,615 65 2011 206,895 3,140 50,780 600 3,590 60 2012 212,455 3,285 52,390 695 3,640 65 Note: The figures have been rounded to the nearest 5.

Annual statistics on the number of enterprises are available ONS announced that the Higher Income Child from the ONS release UK Business: Activity, Size and Location Benefit Charge was to be classified as a tax in the at: October 2012 release “National Accounts Sector http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-register/uk-business/ Classification—Classification Update, October 2012” index.html which can be found on the ONS website here Child Benefit http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/na-classification/national- accounts-sector-classification/classification-update---october- Mr Chope: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 2012/index.html whether the Office for National Statistics has classified the higher income child benefit charge as a tax. [137246] Employment: Kilmarnock

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office what proportion of people were employed in (a) asked the authority to reply. public sector, (b) private sector and (c) third sector Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: organisations in Kilmarnock and Loudoun As the Director General of the ONS, I have been constituency in each of the last five years for which asked to reply to your recent question. figures are available. [137425] 749W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 750W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the abolition of financial and tax incentives, subsidies and responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have exemptions to organisations benefiting Israeli asked the authority to reply. settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: their inhabitants. [136830] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Mr Hurd: The Charity Commission is aware of the Question asking, what proportion of people were employed in European Council declaration. (a) public sector, (b) private sector and (c) third sector organisations in Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency in each of the last five years for which figures are available. (137425) Pay Public and private sector employment statistics for local areas can be calculated from the Annual Population Survey (APS). Luciana Berger: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private Office what the average annual salary was for (a) men sector according to their responses to the survey. and (b) women in full-time employment in (i) Estimates on people employed in the third sector are currently Liverpool, Wavertree constituency, (ii) the North West not available from the APS. Individuals employed in voluntary and (iii) England in the latest period for which figures organisations, charities and trusts are generally included in are available. [137067] private sector estimates. The table shows the number and percentage of people who were employed in the public or private sector in Kilmarnock and Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Loudoun parliamentary constituency, according to APS responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have interviews held during the period October 2011 to September asked the authority to reply. 2012, the latest period available, and the 12 month periods Letter from Glen Watson, dated January 2013: ending in December from 2007 to 2011. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the asking what the average annual salary was for (a) men and (b) estimates is given in the table. women in full-time employment in (i) Liverpool, Wavertree National and local area estimates for many labour market constituency, (ii) the North West and (iii) England in the latest statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant period for which figures are available. (137067) count are available on the NOMIS website at: The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried http://www.nomisweb.co.uk out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of Number of people employed in the public and private sectors1 in Kilmarnock earnings information in the United Kingdom. Annual levels of and Loudoun parliamentary constituency earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for Public Private employees on adult rates of pay, who have been in the same job 12 months for more than a year. ending: Thousand Percentage Thousand Percentage The following table shows median gross annual earnings for December 12 28 31 72 employee jobs in (i) Liverpool, Wavertree constituency, (ii) the 2007 North West and (iii) England for full-time males and full-time December 11 27 32 73 females, for the tax year ending 5 April 2012. 2008 Median gross annual earnings for full-time males and full-time femalesa in (i) December 12 29 29 71 Liverpool, Wavertree constituency, (ii) North West and (iii) England, for the 2009 tax year ending 5 April 2012 December 12 29 30 71 £ 2010 Liverpool, December 12 29 29 71 Wavertree 2011 constituencyb North Westc England September **12 31 **28 69 20122 Full-time **28,002 26,749 29,102 males 1 Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private sector according to their responses to the survey. Full-time *28,536 21,700 23,321 2 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an females indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality. a Employees on adult rates who have been in the same job for more than one Guide to Quality: year. The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the b Parliamentary constituency. smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within c UK Region. +/- twice the CV - for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% we Guide to quality: would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of a figure, the smaller Key: the CV value the higher the quality. * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably average of 200 with a CV of 5%, we would expect the population average to be precise within the range 180 to 220. *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Key: acceptable CV <= 5% **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too * CV > 5% and <= 10% unreliable for practical purposes ** CV > 10% and <= 20% Source: Source: Annual Population Survey Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), Office for National Statistics. Occupied Territories Temporary Employment Richard Burden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer of 17 December 2012, Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Official Report, column 559W, on charities: Israel, Office how many temporary staff have been recruited whether he has informed the Charity Commission of to his Department in each month since July 2012. the European Council decision of 16 June 2005 on the [135698] 751W Written Answers15 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 752W

Mr Maude: In 2011-12 the Government reduced Number expenditure on temporary staff by £745 million between 2009-10 and 2011-12.We have ensured though July 2 an external recruitment freeze that external recruitment August 3 is only for urgent operational or business critical posts September 12 and approval for external recruitment must first be October 13 sought from a ministerial led departmental committee. November 12 The Cabinet Office recruited 46 temporary employees December 4 during the period 1 July to 31 December 2012.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 717 HEALTH—continued Accident and Emergency Departments (Waiting Midwives...... 722 Times)...... 728 NHS Funding Formula (Rural Areas/Elderly Alcohol Consumption (Damage to Health) ...... 730 People)...... 723 Cancer, Stroke and Heart Disease (Survival Patient Experience ...... 724 Rates)...... 725 Sexual Health Policy ...... 726 Community Hospitals...... 732 Specialist Accident and Emergency Doctors ...... 730 Healthcare Appointments/Operations Topical Questions ...... 732 (Postponements) ...... 727 Urgent Care Services...... 731 Hospital Waiting Times (England)...... 719 Vascular Disease (England)...... 717 Leeds Children’s Hospital (Heart Surgery Unit)..... 721 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 15 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 29WS TREASURY ...... 29WS Advanced Boiling Water Reactor ...... 30WS EU Justice and Home Affairs Opt-in Decision...... 29WS Local Authority Funds ...... 29WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 31WS Police Officers and Staff (Remuneration and WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 34WS Conditions of Service) ...... 31WS Budgeting Loans...... 34WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 33WS National Employment Savings Trust...... 34WS Appointment to the UK Delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe ...... 33WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 742W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Data Protection...... 742W continued Export Credit Guarantees: Argentina ...... 742W Non-domestic Rates...... 739W Fireworks...... 743W Parking: Morecambe...... 740W Manufacturing Industries: Ashfield ...... 743W Shops ...... 740W Manufacturing Industries: Scotland...... 743W Social Enterprises...... 740W PAYE...... 744W Social Rented Housing...... 741W Postgraduate Education ...... 745W Video Conferencing ...... 742W Students: Terminal Illnesses ...... 745W Supermarkets: Unfair Practices...... 745W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 682W Women’s Library ...... 747W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 682W Culture: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 682W CABINET OFFICE...... 748W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 683W Business: East of England ...... 748W Insurance ...... 683W Child Benefit...... 747W Music: Young People ...... 683W Employment: Kilmarnock ...... 748W Newspaper Press: Complaints...... 684W Occupied Territories ...... 749W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 684W Pay...... 750W Permanent Secretaries...... 685W Temporary Employment...... 750W DEFENCE...... 672W Afghanistan ...... 672W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 736W Defence School of Photography...... 674W Charities: Finance...... 736W European Defence Agency...... 674W Cycling...... 737W Gibraltar...... 674W Dogs ...... 737W Gulf of Guinea ...... 674W Fire Services: Greater London ...... 737W Nuclear Disarmament...... 675W Fraud ...... 737W Persian Gulf...... 675W Green Belt...... 738W Local Government: Equal Pay ...... 738W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 747W Local Government: Newspaper Press...... 739W Monarchy: Marriage...... 747W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 731W HEALTH—continued Chequers...... 731W Glaucoma ...... 697W English Baccalaureate ...... 731W Health and Social Services: Expenditure...... 698W Financial Services: Education ...... 731W Health Centres: Christchurch...... 698W First Aid: Education ...... 731W Health Services: Ethnic Groups ...... 699W Official Engagements ...... 732W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 699W Official Visits ...... 732W Health Services: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 700W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 732W HIV Infection Rates...... 688W Reading: Tower Hamlets...... 734W Hospital Building...... 689W Schools: Tower Hamlets...... 735W Hospitals: Dorset...... 703W Schools: Work Experience...... 735W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 703W Sick Leave ...... 735W Liverpool Care Pathway...... 689W Young People: Unemployment...... 736W Mental Illness: Tower Hamlets...... 704W Multiple Sclerosis: Drugs ...... 704W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 686W NHS: Research ...... 705W Data Protection...... 686W Non-EU Patients: Costs...... 689W EAGA...... 686W Prostate Cancer...... 705W Government Procurement Card ...... 687W Schizophrenia ...... 706W Press: Subscriptions ...... 687W Social Enterprises...... 706W Procurement...... 687W Tower Hamlets Primary Care Trust...... 707W Urenco...... 687W Tuberculosis...... 689W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOME DEPARTMENT...... 648W AFFAIRS...... 675W Civil Disorder ...... 648W Ash Dieback Disease ...... 675W Communications Data Bill (Draft)...... 649W Community Development: Finance ...... 676W Deportation ...... 649W Dangerous Dogs ...... 676W DNA and Fingerprints: Databases...... 649W Flood Control...... 676W Drugs: Misuse...... 650W Flood Control: Dredging ...... 677W Entry Clearances...... 650W Floods...... 677W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 652W Industrial Waste...... 677W Extradition...... 652W Ivory: South East Asia...... 677W Police: Equipment...... 653W Livestock: Transport ...... 678W Police Stations: Croydon ...... 653W Members: Correspondence ...... 678W Police: Training ...... 653W National Wildlife Crime Unit ...... 679W Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures . 653W Public Houses: Halifax...... 679W Rhinoceros Products and Ivory: Africa...... 679W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 640W Salmon: Northumberland...... 680W Parliamentary Outreach...... 640W Water Charges...... 681W Water: Lancashire ...... 682W Water Supply ...... 681W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE...... 639W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 654W Members: Subsistence Claims...... 639W Afghanistan ...... 654W Assisted Areas...... 655W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 644W Bahrain ...... 656W Argentina...... 644W British Indian Ocean Territory...... 656W Bangladesh...... 644W British Nationals Abroad...... 657W Consultants...... 644W Marriage ...... 657W Ecuador ...... 645W Middle East ...... 657W Palestine Media Watch...... 645W Nuclear Disarmament...... 658W Palestinians ...... 645W Pakistan ...... 658W Procurement...... 645W Palestinians ...... 659W St Helena ...... 646W Sick Leave ...... 659W Sri Lanka ...... 660W United Arab Emirates ...... 661W JUSTICE...... 725W Zimbabwe ...... 661W Coroners ...... 725W Criminal Injuries Compensation ...... 726W Employment Agencies...... 726W HEALTH...... 688W Employment and Support Allowance: Coventry .... 727W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 690W G4S...... 728W Aerials: Health Hazards...... 690W Personal Injury: Compensation...... 728W Alcoholic Drinks: Females...... 690W Temporary Employment ...... 729W Ambulance Services: East of England...... 693W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 729W Cancer ...... 693W Young Offender Institutions...... 730W Cancer: Drugs...... 694W Young Offenders: Reoffenders ...... 730W Cancer Services: Expenditure...... 688W Youth Courts ...... 730W Care Homes ...... 695W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 695W Drugs: Babies...... 696W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 685W Elective Operations: Non-Clinical Cancellations.... 689W Business Committee...... 685W General Practitioners: Prescription Drugs ...... 697W Government Bills: Free Votes...... 685W Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 742W TREASURY—continued Cabinet: Chequers...... 742W Taxation: Public Houses ...... 672W Development Aid...... 742W Welfare Tax Credits...... 672W Food Banks...... 742W WALES...... 648W SCOTLAND...... 646W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 648W Energy...... 646W Income Tax ...... 647W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 686W Official Visits ...... 647W Marriage ...... 686W Visits Abroad ...... 647W Members: Correspondence ...... 686W

TRANSPORT ...... 640W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 708W Cycling: Accidents ...... 640W Access to Work Programme ...... 708W M1 ...... 641W Data Protection...... 707W M6 ...... 641W Disability Living Allowance: Medical Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 641W Examinations...... 707W Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance...... 642W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 708W Railways: Public Holidays...... 642W Employment Schemes: Mental Illness ...... 709W Shipping: Employment ...... 642W Guaranteed Minimum Pensions...... 710W Unemployed People: Travel...... 643W Housing Benefit ...... 710W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 711W TREASURY ...... 662W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 711W Car Tax...... 662W Occupational Pensions...... 713W Child Benefit...... 662W Pay...... 713W Climate Change ...... 663W Pensions: Widowed People...... 714W Corporation Tax ...... 664W Poverty: Children ...... 714W EU Law...... 664W Remploy...... 717W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 667W Social Fund: Clwyd...... 718W Gift Aid ...... 667W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 718W Income Tax ...... 668W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 719W PAYE...... 668W State Retirement Pensions: British Nationals Personal Income: Kingston upon Hull...... 670W Abroad ...... 719W Revenue and Customs...... 670W Telephone Services...... 720W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services ...... 670W Unemployed People: Travel...... 720W Social Security Benefits: Greater London ...... 671W Universal Credit...... 721W Tax Allowances: Research...... 671W Welfare Tax Credits: Halifax...... 721W Taxation...... 672W Work Capability Assessment...... 721W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 15 January 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 717] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

Supermarket Pricing Information [Col. 739] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Denham)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Constitutional Law [Col. 742] Motion—(Michael Moore)—agreed to

Remploy Marine Fife [Col. 841] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Manufacturing (West Midlands) [Col. 181WH] Party Political Broadcasts [Col. 206WH] Electoral Registration [Col. 214WH] Post-16 High Needs Provision (Warrington) [Col. 237WH] Leisure Services (North East Lincolnshire) [Col. 245WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 29WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 639W] [see index inside back page]