University of Texas at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP
Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History
5-14-1969
Interview no. 21
Eve Ball
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Recommended Citation Interview with Eve Ball by Leon C. Metz, 1969, "Interview no. 21," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.
This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UI'IIVEIISITYOF TEXAS AT EL PASO INSTITIJTEOF O|TAL I{ISTCIRY
IIiTERVIETTIEE: EveBal l Metz INTERVIEI.IER: LeonC. PIIOJECT: .|969 DATEOF II'ITERVIE|I: May14, TERIJiSOF USE: Unrestricted
TAPENO.: T:rAi{scRIPTi.10.: 21 TRAIISCRISER:
DATETRA|,ISCRIBED:
BIOGRAPHICALSY|SOPSIS OF II'ITERVIEI'IEE: Southwestauthor.
SUllii{ARYoF Ii'lTERlfIE!'f:
Informationon the ear'ly settlementof Newlvlexico, includinq the Cree Ranch,BrandonKerby, Pat Garrett; also informationon Asa, nephewof Geronimo, and on Apaches.
21 pages. Mrs. Eve Ball jntervjewedby LeonC. Metz and S.H.Newmanon May14t 1969.
M: Mrs. Ball, I ran into somedifficulty trying to find out about the Angus
Ranch,The VV, Captain Kerbyand those people.
B: The AngusVV was ownedby the Crees, of Scotland. Thjs Scot family had
madeits fortune by makingscotch whjskeyand mackintoshes;ra'incoats,
we call them. This was a time whenthe Scots and English were imbued
with the idea that they could cometo Americaand makea fortune in
cattle. The Adairs were another family whodid that.
M: Wherewere the Creesfrom in Scotland?
B: Glascow;they m'ighthave had country homeselsewhere but they werefrom
Glascow.They owned the land at the top of the Capitans,up towards
Stanton.
M: Howmuch land d'idthis encompass?
R. At least 200sections; that wasn'tunusual in thosedays.
M: Doyou knowhow they got the I and?
B: hlell, they just boughtthe waterholeand used the rest of the land. That's the waythey a1i did. WhatI meanis, if you ownedthe waterhole, you could keepthe cattle out andstat'ion a guardat the waterholeand not 1et anycattle comein but yours to drjnk. Theland wasn'tanything if you didn't havewater. A cowwon't travel morethan five to sevenmiles for water. Djd you knowthat they inventedbabysitting? If there'is a groupof abouttwenty-five and thirty cows,they'11 leave one of the old cowswith the calvesand they'11 go off andget a drink. I don't know the year. I knewa manwho was their foreman,Jjmmy Woodward. He'is BalI
deadnow, of course. WhenI knewhim, he ljved at Lov'ington.The cattle werebred jn this country. I{henthey wereabout a year o1d, they were drjven north to pasture. Theywere fed there; they wentup in the spring andmarketed in the fall.
M: Whenyou say north, wherewas north?
B: Clear into Canada,some of thenrnor Montana.The Crees had a hugeranch up at Clarenton,Texas, and they sent Jimmyup there to be the foreman. Thefamily wasvery wealthyand the sonmarrjed a titled lady. Here, they called her Ladyl4argaret Cree. This CaptainKerby posed as be'ingthe ownerbut he wasthe foremanfor a while. But he wasreally just an adventurer.
M: Doyou knowanything about this CaptainKerby, where he wasfrom?
B: Alrnostnothing, but the Creeswanted their daughterto mamyhirn, But she refusedto marryhim. Hewas a phoney. I don't like that word but it's the only one I can thing of to describeh'im. Hemade everyone aroundhere believe he ownedthat ranchbut he djdn't; the Creesfinanced it. Theytook the attitude towardsthe'ir cowboysthat they wereScotch peasants. tlel1, you can't treat cowboysthat way. 0ld SamJones told
meone tjme that, "l wouldn'tgo so far as to say we don't look downon nobodybut we sureas hell don't look up to nobody." Well, that's iust aboutthe truth aboutit. Theyresented that terribly. Theyhad a bunkhousefor the cowboysand a big comfortableadobe house for the family. Theybought thousands of cattle. A goodmany of themwere Mex'icancattle; they hadbeen improved by cross-breedingthem wjth the bulI s here.
M: l,,lhatyear was,all this goingon? BalI
B: I'd say abouti88B or 1889. Theyhad surprisingly few calvesto brand
in relation to the mothercows they had. So they decidedthat someone
wasstealing the calves. Theydjdn't knowanything about the cattle
bus'inessandit wasVery easy to dece'ivethem since they didn't know anything. But they assumedsince they wereeducated and wealthy, that the cowboyswere ignorantand knewnothing. Theybrought 150 Aberdeen Angusbulls fromScotland and they are black, of course. Thenthey wouldhave no difficulty in finding wherethe calveswere going, because there wereno black cattle in the country. Theybrought them to Corpus Christi andshipped thern to SanAntonio, New Mex'ico by train. Thenthey drovethem overland to the ranch. Wel1,these old Mexicancattle
could travel fifteen or s'lxteenmjles a day; they're so long-'leggedand
skinny. But these newcattle hadprobably never walked over a quarter
of a mile in their lives; it wasa iob to get themto the ranch. They lost a lot of themon the way; jt wasdry andthey just couldn't walk. Thenwhen they got the first calf crop, they didn't haveany trouble
determiningwhose they were. Theydidn't havethese black Anguson the ranchsix weeksuntil they didn't havea bull jn the bunch. Thecowboys knewhow to take care of that. Did they steal them.
No, they castratedthem. To keepthem from breedingthis Angusstock? 0f coursel l,.lhywoul d they do that? Becausethey weresteal'ing them, thejr owncowboys. Wjngfield was their BalI
foreman;this wasIke's brother. Heand every other cowboyon the place
wassuspected of doingit. EloiseSutherland, who lives herenow, and TedSutherland, his father wasJim Sutherlandof the DjamondA ranch,
downtowards Roswell. It is right off the reservationand it ran all the wayto Pecosin thosedays. It's a muchsmaller ranch now.
M: Werethese the Sutherlandsfrom Las Cruces?
B: No, therewere Sutherlands in LaLuz, too, but they weren'trelated. Jim Sutherlandwas wonderful cowman. Someone ought to write a bookabout him. Hewould make a beautiful biography. Hewas a superbcowman and a gentlemanin every senseof the word. In those dayspneurnonia was
almosta fatal jllness alwayshere in this altitude. Therewas no ' penicillin andJim Sutherlandsaid that there wereonly two things he
wasafraid of; onewas pneumon'ia and the other wasLi1 Casey. Comingback to BrandonKerby, do you recall whathe lookedljke? B: Well, he wastall, njce lookingand very well dressed,a little too
well dressedto suit the peopleof thi:s country. Theyhad the idea if a cowboywas well dressed,he wasn'ta very efficient cowboy.He was
moreof a show-off. BrandonKerby wasn't a cowboyat all.
M: Doyou knowwhat ever becameof him?
B: No, I don't know. Theycalled himCaptain Kerby, but I don't knowif he wasa captainor not. If a manhad enough cattle jn thosedays, he
wasa captain. If he hadmore, he wasa majorand even still more,he wasa colonel. It hadnothing to do wjth the military.
M: Hewas actually foremanof the CreeRanch but not the ownerand he never marrjedthe Creegirl? Did he marryanyone that you knowof? BalI
B; No, he could havemarrjed after he left here. Peopledidn't write letters
muchin thosedays or keepin touchwith eachother. Therewas a Cree
sonwho lived in Albuquerque.Eloise Sutherland mjght be able to give you moreinformation. TheCrees really wentbroke. Theyleft the
ranchand John W. Poewent into the ranchafter the Creesleft andthen I think Pat Garrettand hjs cousin,Gray, too. Tedand Eloise Sutherland delivereda herdof cattle to the Creeheadquarters after the Crees weregone. Theygot in there late that night, wateredthe cattle and turnedthem out to pastureand spent the njght in the Creehouse. There wasno one there. Therewere trunks of papersleft in the house. She said she neverwanted to do anyth'ingworse than go throughthose papers. Theyhad postmarks from Scotland on so on addressedto the Crees.
M: Doyou knowwhat happenedto those papers?
B: I supposethey wereburned. Like the Grattanswe met, their father kept
big boxesof paperof all the recordsof that tradjng post andthe income that the Apachesmade. Theyhad cattle andhorses and farmed a little, but they djdn't like farming. Anyway,all thoserecords were destroyed. Theydidn't real'izethe value.
M: Did they, the Grattans,ever mentionowning a motel or auto-campup on the other side of El Paso,close to the countryclub? B: No, but the oldest brother, Joe, has rental propertyjn El Paso;that might be him. He I 'ivedi n Maryland for manyyears . After the'ir father' s Indianwife died, he wentback to MountVernon, Alabama. Their mother wasa Cannon;she lived there. After he quit beingan'interpreter' these boyswere born there. BalI
M: Doyou reca'll the circumstancesthat Garrett went to work for Kerby?
Theaccounts that I've read give the impressionthat Garrett wasforeman
for Kerby.
B: Theremight have beena contract becausethat soundsljke somethinghe
would do. I knowabout BrandonKerby becauseI knewthe Woodwardsso
very we11. Mrs. Woodwardwas a McKeon,Eva McKeon. They ljved at
Anguswhich is nowunder the water of the lake, Bonita Lake. The little
village of Angusis nowunder the lake. Theymoved all the housesthat
could be movedbut somewere adobeand there's no movingthem. l,,Jhen
Eva and Jimmywere married, Mr. Creew[s go'ingup to Clarendonby train.
So after the wedding,Mr. Creeand the newMrs. Woodwardrode the tra'in
and Jimmyhad to drive the herd through. trlhenthey got up there, there
was a disputed waterhole. Therewas no surveyingat that time and a
neighboringranch claimed the waterholeand Mr. Cree thought he had
bought'it. So they had to patrol the waterhole. She rode with him
and carried a Winchesterall the time.
Do you knowwhat causedthe falling out betweenPoe and Garrett?
I knowone cause; Garrett borrowedmoney from Poe and gave a note for
it and Poewas never able to collect any of that money. No one was
ever able to collect moneyfrom Garrett. That wasone cause. And then
Edjth CoeRigsby told me this in strictest confidence,Frank Coe's
daughter. Therewere six daughters,only two are living now, hlinnie
Hunt in 0klahomaCjty and Edith in Alamogordo,who is a very goodfriend
of mine. WhenFrank Coe first boughta car, he didn't knowhow to drive;
the daughters did learn and whenthey went anywherethey drove him BalI
Mrs. Coewouldn't allow the Lincoln Countyl,'lar or B'illy the Kid to be
mentionedin the house;they never djscussedit in the home. llhatever
Frank Coehad done jn his other life, he was very considerateof his
wife. But whenhe would go out with his daughtershe would point out,
"This place is wherewe hangeda Negro,"or so on. l^lell, Edith drove
her father downto Roswellafter he went jnto bank. Mr. Coewas pretty
affluent. Whenhe went into the bank, Mr. Poe sawhjm comeinto the
bankand sent a clerk to invite him into th'is office. Edith went'in
with him and Frankgot to asking what really happenedat Fort Sumnerthe
night that the Kjd was killed. And Edith sajd her father never had the
slightest doubt but that the Kid was killed. You'll hear stories all
over the country of how Frank and GeorgeCoe would makea trip to Arjzona
or ltbntanaor somewhereto see someman who claimed to be Bi11y the
Kjd. Edjth sajd that was positively untrue. Both her father and George'
h'is cousin, believed that Billy was k'illed. They got to talking to Poe
about th'is and Poe hadwrjtten thjs ljttle paper, THEDTATH 0F BILLYTHE
KID, and he had substantiatedPat Garrett's story. But he told Frank
Coethat day that they had all ljed to protect the reputation of a woman,
andposit'ively it wasnot Paulita MaxwelI Whatwould that haveto do with jt, lying to protect a woman? Well, no onewent 'into details but Bjlly wasevidently there vi siting th'is
woman.She was a relative of the Maxwells but it wasnot Pauljta MaxwelI , Pedro'ssi ster. 'i It wasn't Deluv i na, was t? No, Deluvinawas a Navajoservant. Ball
M. She had beena former slave, I think.
B: She had beena slave; you knowthe Navajosand the Apacheswould capture
Mexicans,especia'l'ly, and se11 them into slavery to wealthy Mex'ican
famil'ies or they'd buy Apacheand Navajoslaves. They both traded back
and forth and there were white people who were slaves.
M: Lucian Maxwellhad a lot of slaves, didn't he?
B: Yes, they all had slaves. Therewas as muchslavery here as there was
in the south wjth the Negroes. This story had alwaysbeen that J.W. Poe
had never seenthe Kid and wouldn't recognizehim. He said he did recognize
him and scaredto death. Andof course the other man, McKjnneyrecognized
him becausehe had knownhjm a long time. He said Pat Garrett deliberately
shot him downand jt was nothing but cold-bloodedmurder.
M: Well, Garrett doesseem like the kind of manwho could shoot a man
in cold blood.
Itle11,I'll te11 you, for the last twenty-five years, I've intervjewedthe
o1d peoplearound this country but I never found one whocould say a good
word for Pat Garrett. Now,I'll te11 you one whodid. Lily Caseydid,
nowshe hated the Kid with a vengeance. She thought Bob0linqer was
darn near perfect.
Bob0linger wore a halo?
We11,she was going to marry him and she wasjust seventeenat the time.
Her father rhadbeen killed on the streets of Lincoln and that was the
famousdouble hangingshe descrjbesin detail in the book. Mrs. Casey
wasan invalid, a crjpple, and Lily's two older brothers she describedas
puny, Will and Ad. Ad was paralyzedas a child of about three years old, BalI
he crawledinto the corral wherethey weremilkjng anda cowhad hooked
him. Theythought for three daysthat he wouldnrtlive. Hedid recover
but his left side as almosthelpless. Now,he couldmount a horsebut he couldn't ropeand get off andtie anddo things like that. He could rjde with the cattle but he couldn't do muchactive work. So, Lily was very proffdient at that. l^lill wasn't too healthyeither. l{henshe was aboutthirteen, she becamethe defenderof the family. Andboy, shewas thoroughand efficjent at it, too. Hermother was a victim of peoplewho wouldhave cheated her out of all her land. Theyhad laid claim to all that Feliz country,on the right of discovery. 0f coursenthe land laws werevery indifferent in those times. D'idyou knowthat there wereover five thousandlaws passed to enablesettlers to obtain land without payingfor it? Whatpeople recognized'in those days, if a mansettled at
a place, he didn't haveto build a house,jf he hada horseand a bedroll all he hadto do wascamp at a certain spot andsort of makeit his head- quartersand people would respect it as his. 0f course,it wasalways at
a sourceof water. As SamJones said, "Nobodythought much of the 1and, it wasall over outdoors;what they wantedwas water." Theycalled'it 'squattersrights', jf he stayedthere as long as three months,even if
he iust showedup oneor two timesa monthand spent the night there, it wash'is land andordinarily, it wasrespected. l4cSweenwas the boy whobroke the rules; well, he didn't breakthe rules but he told the peoplejn that countrythat there werelaws concerning those th;ings. No4 whenCasey had bought thjs place, he hadbeen a scoutof Fort Stanton. Hehad been looking over the land'in this countryand when his periodof BalI 10
enlistment of three years was up, he decidedto buy the rni'I1down on the
Hondo,four and a half mjles east of what we call Hondonow. And there
was a grist mil1 there, crude but effect'ive, and two adoberooms' bi9
roomswith a fireplace in each room. His family was at Manard,Texas.
He decidedto buy it and he djd. The manwho sold it to him was named
Klenneand all he could give him was a quit claim deedwh'ich meant that
he releasedany claim that he had on it. It hadn't beensurveyed and
there was no way in the world to tell where the boundarieswere; they
weren't specified. He decidedto bring his family from Manard,which was
a 800 mile trjp, back there to the Hondo. Therewas not another family of
Anglos anywherearound. So he bought wagonsand e'ight yoke of oxen and he
hjred a Mexicanboy whocouldn't speakany Eng'lishand he couldn't speak
Spanish. He didn't want to go back to Texaswjthout any commodities,
he wantedto take somethingsaleable. Theywent to the salt flats, You
knowhow they did that? Theywould drjve the wagon'intoshallow water
wherethe salt would settle in the bottornand shovel the water into the
wagonand the water would drip out and then the salt would dry. So he
went to Texaswith thjs salt and he brought his famjly back to the Hondo.
And whenLily was thirteen, her father was killed and this was the famous
double hanging. So she grewup fighting and work'inglike a manand
capab'leand shrewd. Old Ash Upsonwas the tutor; they had him to stay
there and he ran the ranch commissary,too. That was another reason 'it Murphyand Dolandjdn't like him, because was competition.
Didn't I i ke who?
Robert Casey,they had him killed. They h'ired a manto kill him, f,lilson. BalI 11
Murphywas to pay him $500to do jt and guaranteedhim he wouldn't be pun'ished.
M: l^Jhatwas WiI son's f i rst name?
B: William, I believen he hadworked for Casey. Nowth'is is the story: I'm
not saying it's true or not becauseit can't be proven. Robbrt Caseyhad
manyfriends and he had enemies,everybody did. There was no in-between
measurein those days. Youwere one thjng or the other. Rancherspaid
thejr menwhen they sold their cattle, whjch in somecases was only once
a year. NowCasey had a little incomefrom the mill for that reason.
Everybodytook their corn downthere to be ground. Theydidn't pay him
in money;they par'dhim wjth a percentageof the meal. He could sell this
to the fort. So he had a little money. Very few people had cash; it was
mostly barter all together. So whenthey sold thejr hay crop or their
cattle, they would pay their menand it might be once a year. Thesemen
would comein wjth their horsesand a bedroll and somet'imesa packhorse,
usually not. And they would get thejr food and they wouldwork for $30
a month, somet'imes$25. And if they neededa pair of boots or a saddle,
thejr employerwould charge it. And there was no one to buy it from
except Murphyand Dolan--that is until Caseyput in a little commjssary.
Peoplesometjmes sold their crops to Murphyand Dolanand they could pay
what they pleased and charge what they pilreased.Then when Casey was paid
off , he'd pay his menand I doubt that they kept any accounts. trlell, the
claim was that this l^lr'lsonhad workedout there as a cowboyfor five months
and whenhe was paid off, he on'ly had eight dollars com'ing,and of course he
questicined that but he didn't say anything'but they knewhe wouldn't 1 BalI 72
like that. Theygot up at 3:00 in the morningand workeduntil 10:00
or 11.:00at night and they alwaysate after dark. And if there were
chores to do aroundthe ranch, like milking cows, it was alwaysdone
by lantern. Theyspent every bit of daylight out in the fields or with
the cattle. He paid hjm in cash and got a receipt, he was the only one
whodid that except John Chisum. Thenthe manleft after having his
supperand having beenpaid and he said that Lily and one of the boys
had roped him and took the moneyfrom hjm. That was his story. So he
went to Lincoln and hung aroundfor a few days. A lo-uof peoplewould
comefrom Pecosin wagonsand buy from Casey. It would save them twenty
miles. Evenif they had to go to Fort Stantonon business, it would
save having to haul their supplies that twenty m'ilesto buy from Caseyand
he did sell a little bit cheaper. That helpedcause the hard feelings
betweenMurphy and Casey. Caseyhad very good friends at Fort Stanton
and evenwent as scout with the cavalry after he left Fort Stanton, after
he got h'is discharge. So there was this situation left, and Lil was a
muchbetter manthan either one of her brothers. But she fell in love
with Bob0linger and he was a swashbucklingadventurer and he wore
beadedbuckskin clothes and let his hair grow long even after other men
had ceaseddoing it. He called himself 'PecosBob' and swaggered.He
ingratiated himself with Mrs. Caseyand Lil. And by that tjme, Jimmy
Dolanhad taken possessionof the'ir land up on the Feliz. Theydidn't
havea deed, of course, but no one had deeds. McSweenhad given these
adventurersthe jdea that'if they beat the rightful ownersto the land
office and fjled on it, jt was the'ir land. Youcan see the trouble that BalI 13
could be caused. 0f all the criticism that wasmade against Lil Casey,
I neverheard anything to questionher chastity. Andif anythinghad been
said, I wouldhave heard because some of theseold gals wouldhave told
me. Youcan trust the neighborsfor that.
M: Well, Bob0l'inger was just a terrible person,wasn't he?
B: Youare so right; but you te11 a seventeenyear o1dgirl that abouta
manten yearsolder than she is andwho she loves...
M. Howdjd this effect her feelings aboutPat Garrett?
B: lllell, she hatedBillythe K'idbecause he killed 0linger. Hehad gone to Mrs. Caseya weekbefore he waskilled andmade a contractwith her to take over the managementof all her property... the mill, the sectjons
wherethey 1ived, andthe Feliz land, etc...,and to pay her $6,000a year. Now,that land wouldn'tproduce that in ten years. But he was killed a weekafter that andthere's no telling whathe wouldhave done.
M. Whyis B'il1ythe K'idso populararound here? I meanpeople act I ike he wasgreat andyou shouldn'tsay anythingabout him. B: Let metell something,A.B. Fall,0liver Lee,and the Kjd are goodmen
7Tnthe eyesof the people/and you can't say anyth'ingagainst them. M: Whatelse canyou tell us aboutthe Coefamily?
B: Regardlessof whathas beensajd aboutthe Coemen, the womenwere above suspicion. I haven'ta friend whoI amprouder of than myfriendship
w'ith Edjth CoeRigsby. FrankCoe was shrewd and Mrs. Coewas a very superiorwoman, she was a Cu11ey.Do you knowJim? Youought to know him, he is the nephewof FrankCoe, hjs auntmarried Frank Coe. His father, Jim Culley, movedout here becausehis sister marriedFrank Coe. BalI I4
So, who'sthe manwho wrote THE SAGA?
M: Burns.
B: Yes,Noble Burns. Hecame to this countrywith the purposeof writing
up the LincolnCounty tirlar. l^lell, I don't knowif he cameand ask for FrankCoe first, but neverthelessFrank Coe met him, learnedhis purpose for beinghere and invited himto the ranchand kept himthere for four months. Franktook himaround to interviewpeople and he took himto see poeplewho he wantedhjm to meet. The Coesgot their story before the publjc andthey weresmart enough to knowthat the first versionwould
be the acceptedone. And'it is, you take nine-tenthsof the people whoaren't studentsof the situation andTHE SAGA... is it, don't you thi nk that's true?
M: Yes, it is. I've had a hundredpeop'le tell mewhen I've askedabout Pat
Garrrett, "Wel1, haven't you read THESAGA 0F BILLYTHE KID?" And I
would say, "YeS, I haveread it." "Well," they rep1y, "ttlat'S got every-
thing you've got to know."
B: That's what they think, too, and you can't tell themany d'ifferent. So'
it's a legendand it grewup. Nowthe old Jonesboys liked Bi11y and
whenhe was downon the Pecos,he'd stay at SevenRivers at their home
just like one of the family. Andwhen he was up here, he stayed mostly
w'ith GeorgeCoe. After they hangedthat negro, they went out there and
arrested them. McSweenput them wise to one thing-- that whatever they
did, not to kill a soldier becausethen they would be in bad wjth the
federal government. And they meanbus'iness. It djdn't matter about all
the other peoplethat they killed, but this was a negro soldier. And he BalI 15
hadstolen a horse. Frankand GeorgeCoe had gone to Ljncolnand I
supposethey were in a bar. But anyhowwhen they got ready to go home that night, George'shorse was gone. Theyborrowed a horsefrom someone' anybodywould lend you a horse. Andthe next morninq,they tracked George'shorse. So they hangedthe negrobut they didn't hanghim until
he wasdead. Theywere iust trying to teachhim a lesson. Well, you see, he wasa soldjer. lllell, Bjlly cameup hereto George'sranch and they cameby and amestedhjm becauseit wasa federal case, you see? So, they put himon a old bonyhorse without a saddleand took himto L'incoln. By the t'imethey got hjmthere he was'in pretty badcondition. He said
that as far as he wasconcerned that right then waswhen the Lincoln
CountyWar began.
M: Wherewas Garrett's ranch?
B: Theybegan to breakup the AngusVV. Yousee,'it wasa p"itchfork, /ftre brand/. It wastoo easyto alter the brand,so they put a bar across it andcalled'it a handleand made a pitchfork. Garrett's ranchwas part of that ranch. Garrettand Poe fjrst andthe Gray,his cousin,
wasin it awhile. Doyou knowhow big the ranchwas? Probablynot too big, becauseGarrett neverhad enough money to go'into anyth'ingbig. Did you ever hearanything about a JohnA. M'iller? l,'1e11,let mesee... Therewere several Millers aroundhere, Fountain Miller wasthe youngestand Slick Miller wasthe oldest. Hewas called
Slick becausehe wasso slick as a performerwith horses,You know, BalI 16
stealing horses. Andhe could havebeen one of theseMillers, in fact,
i don't evenknow what Sl'ick Miller's real namewas. Hemarried a Gilmore,their homewas down here at Alto abouta mile or so. That's whereGene Rhodes lived whenhe tauqhtschool at that little school out there.
M. We'I1,Itlrs, 8a11, that's just abouttakes care of everything. I was moreinterested in CaptainKerbey, the Creesand the Angusthan anything
else. Eastland,Barncastle and Miller, I guessI can find themin THEG0LDEN ERA. All thesepeople were involved in the splitting up of the terrjtory into countiesand Garrett was around at that time, too. B: Thatrsmostly a'|1 politics, I just heardof thosemen and rea11y couldn't he1p you much.
M: Garrettwas running in 1882, he lost to Eastonby 39 votesor something ljke that. Theywere running for territorial councjlmanwh'ich js the
samething as state senatorbecause they hadterrjtorial representatives, too.
Yes,they hada two-houselegislature.
I've readsomething about Lt. Stanton,what can you te11 meabout him? It wasCaptain Stanton when he died. Hewas from the Rio Grande,and they madethis raid up in here. Nanawas the nameof the Indianleader whoattacked and killed Stanton. It is pronouncedNay-na. That's how the Ind'ianssaid it. Juh is another. I wouldhave called it 'who', but 'it is pronouncedlike'hoe'. Asaused to talk abouthis father, Juh. Asa'smother was Geronimo's s'ister. Juhmarried her andshe was the favorite wife. Hesaid he wasa 'bugger'. Heasked me jf I hadn't BalI I7
read somethingabout him in all the booksI wasalways reading. S0,
I wasreading aloud to Asa, for instance,I wasreadjng about Cebaque(?)
and in this referenceto Cebaque,I cameacross the Juh. It said that
Juh andGeronjmo were the leadersthere. AndAsa said, "l{hatdo you
meanJuh?" I said, "Juh, J-u-h, 'who'." Thenhe said, "Thatnot 'who', that 'hoe'." I said, "lrlell, howdo you know?"And he said, "That my father, " M: I^lhois Asa?
B: Thewhite peoplegave him the namewhen he wentto Carlisle. He said that whenthey put him in school,,he was6'2" and hadworn nothing in hr'slife but breechclothand nnccasins and his hair cameto his knees. Thefirst thing they djd whenthey got to Carlisle wasto cut his hajr
andmake them all weartrousers. Theywere absolutely ind'ignant and thoughtit wasunbearable. And they put themin this classroom,George Grattenwent wjth them,and they weretold to take their seats. He
said, "I wentup andsat in the fjrst seat, that's wherethe chief be1ongs."These were all boysin this room,the girls werein another room. Someonewent down the ais1,e,Asa, Benjamin,Charles, Daniel... Theygave them Christian names. He hatedthat namebecause the white menhad given it to him. His namewas Daklugie, which means 'he forces his waythrough the thick of the battlel. I askedhim howhe got the name and he told methey gaveit to himone time after a skirmishand that was all I couldget out of hjm. hlhatwas Victorio's real name? Phil Cooktold the Grattenstoday that Victorio waskidnapped from a BalI 1B
haci enda 1n Chjhuahuawhen he was three years old and reared amongthe
Apaches. I took his nephew,James Goquacia(?), to ChihuahuaCity.
He cameup here and stayeda monthin a little apartmentthat I have.
He was a very goodguest. I told Asa that there was Fort Cunningham.
I had written to Washingtonand looked in the Archjves. And he said
that there was. I askedhim howhe knewand he told me that he had
robbedit one time. Well, I'll tell you, what he wastalking about and
that was Fort Cummings.A lot of old white peoplecalledit Fort
Cunningham,too. I'm doing another book, about Asa and Juh. The university
wants another bookon Apaches.
M: You're getting so prolific anyrnore,that that's all you do is put out
books I
B: We11,Leon, I've workedon someof themfor twentyyears. All the Indiansvehemently deny that Victorio wasSpanish. Theyswore he
was Apache.
M. Whathappened to that Indjan you were keepinghere the last time I was
up here? Weren'tyou afraid that he was going to cut hjs wife's noseoff?
B: Yes, well, they got a divorce. But it wasan old Apachecustom that if
a wife was unfajthful, the husbandwas obligated to kill her or cut off
her nose. It was a sure cure, ejther way. Anyway,this boy knewhis
wife had beenunfa'ithful and I d'idn't want him to go to the penitentiary.
It's not a ioke. It's a tragic thing the waywhjte menmessed up every-
thing and everybody. Peoplealways ask me if the Apachesarenlt awfully
dirty. The girls whowent to Carlisle were put in the homesof these
thrifty PennsylvaniaDutch settlers in the summertime,on the farms to
teach themhousekeeping. 0f course, those Dutch housewivesprided BalI 19
themselveson scrubbingthelr floors everydayof the world or moreif
necessaryand keepingthose boands clean enough to eat off of. Ramona, Asa'swife, wasthe mostimmaculate housekeeper I've ever known. Her homewas simply furnished but no one hada cleanerhouse. Whenthey
cameback here, they wouldn'tlive with thoseMescaleros. My word, they had had twenty-sevenyears contact with white people. Theywere prisoners of war for that long. Theyare jmmaculateabout the'ir person,too. The boywho stayed here was so clean. His father got religious anddecided that he wasdestined to be the Apachemess'iah and so he neverdjd another minute'swork for the rest of his life. Heexpected them to support him. I got an entirely d'ifferentpoint oi viewof Christianity through the Apaches'eyes.One time Asacame up hereand I told him tr had heardthat they weregetting a newchurch up at Mescaleroand I said
that waswonderful . Andhe said, "lalhy?"And I said, "Whynot?" He said it meantthat anotherwhite family wouldmove in that they hadto supportbetter than their ownfamilies. Andthat wasabout what it did
mean,too. Hewas smart enoughrto know it. Hefelt so sorry for me becauseI wasgoing to haveto go to white man'sheaven. Hethought that wasgoing to be an awfully du11p1ace.
M: Howdo the Apachesrate on intellect or educationaround here?
B: Asahadabrilliant mindand so did Eugene.I thjnk, proportionately' they are brighter than wh'itepeople. I've begunto look at white peop'le throughdifferent eyes. Asaand Eugene were responsible for bringjng the Chiricahuahere from Fort Sill. Asatold methat he thoughtthat that wasthe best thing for his people. Why,they hadbeen prisoners of BalI 20
war for twenty-sevenyears. Theywanted to take themto Arizonabut,
of course,the governmentwouldn't let them. Thegovernor of Arizona said if they sent themthere on the train, he'd meetit at the border anddynamite it. Asasaid nowhe seesthat he couldn't havedone
anythingworse because of the Indianswho elected to stay jn Oklahoma. Thetgovernmentgave them a quarter section of land to eachman head of a household.They had a lot of trouble at first but their descendants are so muchbetter off than theseout here. Asawas just sjck aboutit, the conditionsof the reservationout here. Onetime Asaasked me if I believedin ghosts. I told him the sameanswer a famousFrench woman said over 100years ago, her namewas George Sand. Hecouldn't under- stand whyher namewas a man'sname. But I told hilmwomen weren't supposedto write in thosedays. Shesaid shedjdn't bel'ievein ghosts but that shewas afraid of them. Hetold methat the reasonhe askedwas that he knewhe wasgoing to HappyPlace soon and he did. Hedied within three weeks. Hewanted to knowbecause he felt so badabout what he haddone to his peopleand when he got to FlappyPlace, he'd knowwhat was right. Hewas going to try to comeback and tell mewhat to do to better the situation. I told him I wouldn'tbe scaredif I knewthat it washim. Hefelt sorry for mehav'ing to go to wh'iteman's heaven. I told himnot to be too sure, they m'ightnot let mejn. He got mad then. Andhe said to comeover to their p1ace. I said you wouldn't
let mein either. "Geron'imowould'let you in," he said. "Youcome over andtalk to the chiefs andthen you don't haveto readbooks." i told him that I didn't speakApache well enough.He said over there everything BalI 21
and everybodyspeak the samelanguage. The tree people, the flower
people, humanpeople, and the anjmal peopleall speakthe samelanguage.
I told him that it was pretty temptingand I wasn't too interested in
the streets of gold anyway. He thought that would be terribly du11'
walking aroundin white robes and playing harps. He told me I wouldn't
haveany bonesor meat if I went to white man'sheaven. I said, "Well,
you won't either." And he told me that he sure would. It would be iust
like here with flowers and trees and grass, everybodyhappy nothing
sick or hurt. I told him before I madeany final decision I wantedto
knowone thing, did they havea library'in their HappyPlace? He asked
me if the white eyes had a library and I said not that I knowof. "If
they havea l'ibrary, w€'ll makea raid on it for You," he said. You
knowthe unjversity turned my bookdown because they said my Indians
didn't talk ljke Indjans--theydon't knowhow Indians talki Charlie
was 93 years old and he speaksEnglish. Wewent up to see him this
afternoon at White Tail. He waswith Geronimoon the warpathfor three
years whenhe wasyoung and he knewGeorge Gratten. TheseGrattens
wantedto find Indjans who knewtheir father, of course' they are
few nowbecause they've all died.