NEW JERSEY STATE LEGISLATURE OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE SERVICES

IN RE: ) TRANSCRIPT ) OF SENATE JUDICIARY ) ELECTRONICALLY COMMITTEE INVESTIGATION ) RECORDED TESTIMONY HEARINGS )

Place: Office of Legislative Services State House Annex Trenton, NJ 08625

Date: April 3, 2001

Time: 10:00 a.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

SENATOR WILLIAM L. GORMLEY, CHAIRMAN SENATOR JAMES CAFIERO, VICE-CHAIRMAN SENATOR LOUIS F. KOSCO SENATOR ROBERT J. MARTIN SENATOR JOHN J. MATHEUSSEN SENATOR NORMAN M. ROBERTSON SENATOR JOHN A. GIRGENTI SENATOR JOHN A. LYNCH SENATOR EDWARD T. O’CONNOR, JR. SENATOR RAYMOND J. ZANE SENATOR GARRY J. FURNARI

ALSO PRESENT:

Senate Democratic Staff By: JO ASTRID GLADING, ESQ.

Senate Republican Staff By: CHRISTINE SHIPLEY, ESQ.

Transcriber, Patricia A. Kontura J&J COURT TRANSCRIBERS, INC. 268 Evergreen Avenue Hamilton, NJ 08619 (609)586-2311 FAX NO. (609)587-3599 2 ALSO PRESENT: (Continued)

Latham and Watkins By: MICHAEL CHERTOFF, ESQ. SCOTT LOUIS WEBER, ESQ.

Office of Legislative Services By: JOHN TUMULTY, OLS Aide

3

1 Exhibits Ident. 2 3 SJC-14 Anonymous Document 101 4 Regarding Cipola Grievance 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Opening Statement - Farmer 4 1 SENATOR GORMLEY: Committee members, please 2 take their seats. 3 General, would you please stand. Raise your 4 right hand. 5 J O H N J. F A R M E R, JR., SWORN 6 SENATOR GORMLEY: Be seated. 7 We’d appreciate your opening statement at 8 this time. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Thank you, Senator 10 Gormley, and good morning everybody. 11 Nearly two years ago I came before this 12 Committee seeking its approval for my nomination to be 13 Attorney General of this state. In so doing, I pledged 14 to make the issue of racial profiling my earliest 15 priority. I pledged to do whatever I could to move the 16 State forward and to restore the public’s trust of the 17 State Police in enforcing ours law evenhandedly. 18 I’m before you again today at a critical 19 juncture in the process of change. On the positive 20 side, we broke ground yesterday on a new building to 21 house the State Police forensic labs and communication 22 center. When completed, the building will house the 23 most advanced high-tech facility of any state law 24 enforcement agency. 25 This morning, 120 in the State Police class

Opening Statement - Farmer 5 1 will be graduating. Although my testimony here 2 precludes me from addressing the class, were I to do 3 so, I would tell them that I am proud of them for 4 choosing public service in the New Jersey State Police 5 despite the negative publicity of the past few years. 6 I’d also tell them that notwithstanding the 7 recent publicity, the future of the State Police is 8 bright. The state of the art adult-based learning and 9 training they received at the Academy will be followed 10 up by the most aggressively-prepared trooper coaching 11 program ever developed. Their arrival will free more 12 supervisors for road duty so that their training and 13 coaching can be further reinforced. They are entering 14 an organization dedicated as never before to 15 accountability, both in its dealings with the public 16 and in its treatments of its members. The mechanisms 17 for guaranteeing that accountability are in place and I 18 believe that this change is both positive and 19 irreversible. 20 At the same time, I cannot ignore current 21 reality and the shadow it casts over both past and 22 future. I have watched play out in the proceedings 23 before this Committee the conflict within my Department 24 that I have lived each day and many nights since taking 25 office. It has been painful to live and now to relive. Opening Statement - Farmer 6 1 But I have lived it and I’ve tried at every turn and in 2 every way to address it. 3 Although as I will outline shortly, and as 4 the federal Monitors have repeatedly affirmed, the 5 groundwork for lasting reform has been laid. These 6 hearings are the best illustration that in a 7 fundamental way I have failed to heal the division 8 within my Department. That remains my greatest 9 challenge. 10 When I testified before you in May 1999, I 11 harbored one fundamental misconception about the task 12 before me. I believed that I had a clear mandate to 13 bring about fundamental reform in the New Jersey State 14 Police. Almost from the day I took office, however, as 15 I began to reach out for varying perspectives to 16 current and former members of the State Police of all 17 ranks, I began to realize that far from accepting the 18 conclusions of the interim report, many members of the 19 State Police believed with almost religious fervor and 20 belief to this day that they had been used. Used to 21 fight the war on drugs, when fighting drugs was the 22 fashion of the day, then abandoned when the 23 consequences of that war became unpleasant. Even 24 those, and there were many, who are open to the need 25 for reform, questioned the timing and method of the

Opening Statement - Farmer 7 1 review and the report. 2 At the same time, many in the civil rights 3 community demanded radical change immediately, arguing 4 with justification that the humiliation of disparate 5 treatment had to end and that those who persisted in it 6 must be disciplined. 7 To make matters worse, as I spoke at various 8 meetings with troopers on the one hand and the civil 9 rights community on the other, it became clear that 10 there was no commonly-accepted definition of what 11 racial profiling is to begin with. Everyone agrees 12 that law enforcement decisions predicated solely on 13 race are reprehensible and should be forbidden. When 14 for years the State Police denied that profiling was 15 occurring, at least systemically, this is what they 16 were referring to. 17 The civil rights leaders on the other hand, 18 any consideration of race as a factor in forming a law 19 enforcement decision, a decision to stop or once 20 stopped to investigate further, constitutes racial 21 profiling and should be prohibited. 22 Complicating matters further was case law 23 that conflicted on the constitutionality of race as a 24 factor in law enforcement decision-making. Indeed, as 25 Professor Randall Kennedy points out, decisions Opening Statement - Farmer 8 1 “permitting race to be used on a routine basis is a 2 negative signal of increased risk of criminality 3 represent an influential, indeed dominant, view within 4 the judiciary.” 5 Notwithstanding this precedent, New Jersey 6 has chosen, in both the interim report and the consent 7 decree, to forbid the use of race as a factor as a 8 matter of policy rather than of constitutional 9 compulsion. Still, one can understand the bitterness 10 of some members of the State Police for being condemned 11 for using race as a factor when many courts have upheld 12 its use and when race was prominently featured in law 13 enforcement intelligence routinely provided by the 14 Justice Department and other law enforcement entities. 15 Given the bitter conflict at the heart of 16 this dynamic, I believe that our progress in addressing 17 the issue has been remarkable. I’ve decided early on 18 that this debate, this fissure, could not be resolved 19 until we were able to obtain a truly accurate picture 20 of what was actually occurring on the road. We had 21 statistics but did not know whether they were accurate. 22 And we have radically-conflicting views as between 23 drivers and troopers about the nature of their 24 exchanges. 25 Put simply, we had to design and instill a

Opening Statement - Farmer 9 1 system in which accountability was assured. That has 2 been my consistent focus. I’d like to take a few 3 minutes now to update you on our progress in designing 4 and instilling such a system and to brief you on what 5 we’ve learned about recent trooper conduct as a result 6 of this progress. 7 For the first six months of my tenure, my 8 focus was three-fold. First, I sought to complete the 9 comprehensive review of State Police management and 10 structure that had begun in February. A report that 11 was issued called for fundamental changes in the way 12 State Police was operating. The EEOAA function within 13 the State Police was transferred to my office so that 14 the State Police were treated like the other Divisions 15 in my Department. 16 Internal Affairs has been reorganized. 17 Recruitment and training has been substantially 18 augmented. The Office of State Police Affairs has 19 created a bridge between my office and the Division of 20 State Police that did not exist before. 21 My second priority was hiring a new 22 Superintendent, Carson Dunbar, and a Director of State 23 Police Affairs, Martin Cronin. They came onboard in 24 the fall of 1999. 25 My third priority was to conclude Opening Statement - Farmer 10 1 negotiations with the United States Department of 2 Justice. Those negotiations were spearheaded first by 3 Paul Zoubek and ultimately by Martin Cronin. Many of 4 the recommendations contained in the reports were 5 ultimately embodied in the consent decree, which we 6 signed at the end of December 1999, and thus has the 7 force of law. 8 State Police members are now required by law 9 to report via the Computer Aided Dispatch System all of 10 the basic facts about their stops as follows: The name 11 and identification number of the trooper who initiated 12 the stop. The names and badge numbers of troopers who 13 actively participated in the stop. The time at which 14 the stop commenced and which it ended. The license 15 number and state of the stopped vehicle. The gender 16 and race or ethnicity of the driver and his date of 17 birth, if known. Whether the driver was issued a 18 summons or warning and the category of violation and 19 the reason for the stop; moving violation, non-moving 20 violation, probable cause, be on the lookout, et 21 cetera. That requirement applies now to all stops. In 22 approximately ten percent of stops, those where 23 troopers called for stopped motorists to exit their 24 cars, where motorists are frisked or searched or where 25 a consent to search is requested, troopers will be

Opening Statement - Farmer 11 1 required to fill out a motor vehicle stop form. These 2 forms must include whether the vehicle occupants were 3 requested to exit the vehicle. Whether the vehicle 4 occupants were frisked. Whether a consent to search 5 was requested and granted. Whether a drug detection 6 canine was deployed and whether an alert occurred. 7 Whether a non-consensual search was conducted. Whether 8 any contraband was seized. Whether the vehicle 9 occupants were arrested and if so, the specific 10 charges. And whether the vehicle occupants were 11 subjected to deadly, physical, mechanical or chemical 12 force. 13 The consent decree embodied this new SOP for 14 stops. Required training consistent with the SOP and 15 provided that all information generated would fall into 16 a computerized system designed to maintain and retrieve 17 information that would help supervise and manage the 18 State Police. 19 Training pursuant to this new SOP was 20 concluded by September of the year 2000. The 21 computerized system known as the Management Awareness 22 Program, or MAP, will begin to be put in place this 23 month and is the final major element needed to place 24 the State in full compliance with the consent decree. 25 The decree also provided for quarterly Opening Statement - Farmer 12 1 reports to be issued by federally-appointed Monitors, 2 assessing the State’s efforts to comply with these 3 provisions. We’ve had two such reports issued to date, 4 both of which have been extremely positive. The first 5 Monitor’s report states unequivocally, “Members of the 6 Monitoring team were unanimously impressed with the 7 commitment, focus, energy and professionalism with 8 which members of the New Jersey State Police and the 9 Office of State Police Affairs applied themselves and 10 their organizations to implementation of the changes 11 required by the decree. While the Agency is not in 12 complete compliance, this is to be expected. The 13 Monitoring team knows of no Agency action which could 14 have been completely complied with the requirements of 15 this decree in the period of time available. Many of 16 the tasks required by the decree are generally 17 considered to be multi-year tasks by those familiar 18 with the process of the system’s design and development 19 in policing. 20 “Particularly with respect to training,” the 21 report notes, “the methodology they have used in 22 developing this training reflects state of the art in 23 the field and their commitment to doing the job right 24 is exceptional. In many cases, the Agency goes well 25 beyond the requirements of the decree and simply seeks

Opening Statement - Farmer 13 1 the best answer to any given question or issue.” 2 The second Monitor’s report concludes, “The 3 State has established the state of the art for ethics 4 and integrity training for a large law enforcement 5 Agency. Furthermore, the Monitoring team’s field tests 6 of the electric reporting system for motor vehicle stop 7 reports indicates that the system is robust and 8 provides accurate and timely data to Managers and 9 Supervisors. Error rates are extremely low.” 10 To date, the federal Monitors have found us 11 to be at level one of the policy compliance with 88 of 12 96 potential tasks or 92 percent. 13 We are at level two, or full compliance, with 14 respect to 52 of the potential tasks. 15 Our progress has truly been extraordinary. 16 But what does progress mean in this context? Does full 17 compliance with the consent decree guarantee an end to 18 racial profiling? It’s too soon to tell. What full 19 compliance will guarantee, however, is the emergence 20 within the State Police of a cultural of accountability 21 that will make profiling impossible to conceal and thus 22 highly unlikely to occur. The best illustration of 23 this is with respect to consent-to-search data for the 24 year 2000. Let me walk you through the analysis and 25 describe the process that we’ve undertaken. Opening Statement - Farmer 14 1 Presented late last year with data concerning 2 the rates at which various ethnic groups were stopped 3 in the area patrolled by the Moorestown station, the 4 State Police and Office of State Police Affairs 5 commenced a management inquiry. This inquiry extended 6 to the collection and analysis of consent-to-search 7 documents for the Turnpike during 2000. Subsequently, 8 this document analysis was augmented to review the 9 mobile video recorder tapes from each consent search. 10 Let me run through the numbers quickly with 11 you. First, a traffic population survey conducted 12 pursuant to the consent decree concluded that whites 13 comprised from 60 to 65 percent of the drivers on the 14 southern end of the Turnpike, while blacks comprised 14 15 to 20 percent, and Hispanics nine to 13 percent. 16 The stop figures reflected, however, that 17 whites comprise approximately 54 percent of the stops, 18 while blacks comprised 32 percent, and Hispanics 19 comprised eight percent -- 20 SENATOR GORMLEY: Excuse me, General. Do you 21 have copies? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: What I will be 23 passing out is a -- when I get through running through 24 the numbers, we have a graphic breakdown that we’ll be 25 showing you.

Opening Statement - Farmer 15 1 SENATOR GORMLEY: Okay. But what I’m saying, 2 is there an extra copy of your statement? I’d like to 3 have it run off now so the members could -- 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I will make it 5 available to you. 6 SENATOR GORMLEY: Okay. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 8 SENATOR GORMLEY: They’re paying attention, 9 I’d just like... 10 SENATOR ROBERTSON: I can’t write that fast. 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’ll slow down. 12 These discrepancies, while cause for concern, 13 are not conclusive. As the Justice Department noted in 14 its national survey on contacts between the police and 15 public released this month, “Because a survey has no 16 information on how often people of different races 17 break traffic laws, analysis of the data cannot settle 18 the question of whether or to what extent racial 19 profiling exists.” 20 The numbers were sufficiently troubling, 21 however, to prompt me to launch a full-scale management 22 inquiry earlier this year. The Department is currently 23 in the process of conducting a form of violator survey, 24 specifically a speed survey, to help address the issue 25 from a stops point of view. But we decided to go Opening Statement - Farmer 16 1 further. Specifically, I ordered the consent search 2 numbers to be broken down for Troop D. Those numbers 3 showed for Moorestown that whites were subjected to 4 consent searches 19 percent of the time, while blacks 5 were at 53 percent, and Hispanics at 25 percent, while 6 Asians were at three percent. These numbers are lower 7 than the numbers for 1994 and 1996, but on a par with 8 those from the interim report. 9 Thus, blacks and Hispanics were subjected to 10 consent searches at rates higher than their presence on 11 the road and higher than their stop rates. 12 We broke the numbers down further. I asked 13 that each report be scrutinized on its face to 14 determine whether the report reflected the presence of 15 probable cause as opposed to reasonable suspicion. And 16 we defined probable cause for purposes of this inquiry 17 in a limited way to mean only plain view of contraband, 18 plain smell of contraband or admission that contraband 19 was present. The results were that 54 percent of 20 consent searches of whites reflected one of these three 21 factors; whereas, 26 percent of searches of blacks and 22 eight percent for Hispanics reflected probable cause. 23 Thus, requests to search of whites are based 24 on probable cause at more than double the rate for 25 blacks and more than six times the rate for Hispanics.

Opening Statement - Farmer 17 1 Requests for consent to search blacks and 2 Hispanics seem thus to be made based upon the lower 3 quantum of proof. These disparities are reflected in 4 the find rates which are as follows: Seizures result 5 in the consent searches of whites 25 percent of the 6 time. For blacks, 13 percent of the time. For 7 Hispanics, five percent of the time. Let me state it 8 otherwise. Consent searches are twice as likely to 9 yield seizures when conducted for whites as opposed to 10 blacks and five times as likely for whites as for 11 Hispanics, which yield nothing 95 percent of the time. 12 We went further. I ordered the searches 13 broken down by squad and ultimately by trooper. We had 14 found that those troopers who had four or more consent 15 searches last year averaged 80 percent of black or 16 Hispanic searches with find rates lower than the 17 average. 18 I have now ordered that every video-taped 19 consent search be viewed individually. First for 20 Moorestown and ultimately for the entire Turnpike. 21 While this review is not complete, I can state the 22 following: Now, we have proof. Some of the video 23 tapes we have reviewed confirmed what the numbers 24 suggest. Not only is the use of race or ethnicity as a 25 factor in making a decision to ask for consent subject Opening Statement - Farmer 18 1 to abuse based on prejudice, it is also quite simply 2 bad law enforcement. The case that we are building 3 will result in discipline where appropriate and that is 4 on an individual basis, because in the end we simply 5 cannot have law enforcement by the numbers. In order 6 to move forward, we simply had to reach a point where 7 our level of analysis could focus on individual 8 conduct. When the MAP system is operational, I believe 9 we will have taken the last step. 10 And at this point we have a series of 11 graphics that illustrate what I just went through. 12 (Slide presentation) 13 The first one that you see are the gross 14 numbers for the Troop D consent searches for 2000. And 15 you can see that on a Turnpike-wide basis, 27 percent 16 white, 46 percent black, 25 percent Hispanic, two 17 percent Asian. The total number of searches being 271, 18 reaches a significant fall-off from prior years. 19 The next slide. Now, we’re going to go 20 station by station. This is the Newark station. It’s 21 interesting because not only do they have fewer consent 22 searches conducted in Newark, but the percentages are 23 roughly those suggested by a population survey. So 24 it’s pretty much in line with what you would expect 25 given the population survey that we conducted with the

Opening Statement - Farmer 19 1 Justice Department. 2 The next slide. Now, moving south are 3 Cranbury. The numbers are somewhat worse. Forty-four 4 percent black, 32 percent white, 24 percent Hispanic. 5 Disproportionate to what would be suggested by the 6 portion of drivers on the road. 7 And then we get to Moorestown, which is by 8 far the most disproportionate of the numbers we looked 9 at. Fifty-three percent consent to search black, 25 10 percent Hispanic, and Moorestown also had by far the 11 greatest number of consent searches conducted. 12 Now, we have broken down, as I requested that 13 they do, probable cause versus reasonable suspicion. 14 This is for the Moorestown station. You can see that 15 with white drivers, it’s almost half of the reported 16 searches containing elements of probable cause. When 17 you turn to blacks, it’s 74 percent do not have those 18 elements. Have a lesser quantum of proof identified by 19 reviewing the reports that were filed. When we get to 20 Hispanics, it’s even lower. Probable cause in only 21 eight percent of the searches identified. 22 SENATOR GORMLEY: Excuse me. We need to 23 clarify a particular fact. Senator Matheussen. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Okay. Yes. 25 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: General, maybe I missed Opening Statement - Farmer 20 1 it. Could you tell us the year these statistics were 2 based on? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: This is 2000. 4 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: The year 2000. Thank 5 you. I’m sorry. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The year 2000, 7 yeah. 8 SENATOR LYNCH: And when were they 9 accumulated? When did you prepare this report? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It was prepared -- 11 well, I ordered the review to be conducted in January 12 and it’s still going on. So -- 13 SENATOR LYNCH: When did you prepare these 14 slides? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: In the last couple 16 days. 17 Now we get to actual find rates for the 18 different kinds of searches. And you have -- this is 19 for white drivers. Seventy-five percent of the time 20 they don’t find anything, but they do have the highest 21 find rate when you add the probable cause and 22 reasonable suspicion searches, it’s 25 percent. And 23 turning to blacks, your find rate is basically 13 24 percent. Interestingly, only five percent were 25 probable cause, as reflected in the reports, which is

Opening Statement - Farmer 21 1 something that we’re looking at. 2 And finally, for Hispanics there were in 3 Moorestown, there were no reports that evidenced any 4 kind of probable cause and only five percent recovery 5 from those stops and searches. 6 It’s important to note, though, that this is 7 really a national problem and I would refer the 8 Committee to -- and I can provide you with this report 9 from the Department of Justice issued this month. 10 Contacts between police and the public. Interestingly, 11 19.3 million contacts or stopped drivers were reported. 12 1.3 million searches or 6.6 percent of those contacts. 13 That rate is higher than the rate in New Jersey of 14 searches, at least in recent years. And of those 1.3 15 million searches, 86.7 percent found basically nothing, 16 which is on a par with what we found in New Jersey. 17 Searches of white drivers, again, found 18 criminal evidence 17 percent of the time. Blacks were 19 eight percent of the time. Hispanics were ten percent 20 of the time. So the problem really is not limited to 21 New Jersey, although I think we’ve done more to address 22 it than any other state. 23 The process has been slow and painful. It 24 will continue to be. It’s clear we have not solved the 25 problem. We have taken steps to address it that are a Opening Statement - Farmer 22 1 model for the nation. And let’s be clear, this is a 2 national problem, as you’ve just seen in the Justice 3 Department’s 1999 study of contacts between the police 4 and the public. 5 So far as I know, we’re the first state to 6 have taken the proactive measures necessary to evaluate 7 conduct as it should be evaluated, on an individual 8 basis. 9 One final note before taking your questions. 10 I believe in the mission of my Department. I’m proud 11 of the Department’s willingness to undergo the kind of 12 scrutiny we have undergone for the past two years and 13 the past two weeks. Serving as Attorney General has 14 been the greatest, most humbling honor and challenge I 15 can hope or desire to obtain. I have no aspiration to 16 serve past my term in January. I promised my wife I 17 would say that under oath. 18 (Laughter) 19 Or for any other position. I want to get 20 this right. I hope that the Committee will endorse the 21 progress we’ve made for the past two years so we can 22 heal the wounds of the past and move forward as one 23 department and one state. 24 Thank you. 25 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Matheussen.

Examination - Farmer 23 1 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: General, let me first 2 say I was proud to vote for your nomination two years 3 ago and I, quite frankly, think that we still should be 4 very, very happy with the progress, the attempts that 5 you are making to bring this situation to the progress 6 where we are right now and I commend you on the report 7 that you’ve given today. 8 I also would like to say to you that it’s 9 refreshing that somebody has to answer to a higher 10 calling, your comments at the very end, but perhaps as 11 we move ahead, people will reflect on some of the 12 things that you’re doing now and put them to good use 13 either with you or a successor, or whatever it might 14 be, but so far what you’ve laid out to me certainly has 15 some very important items to it. 16 Let me ask you, the first thing out, you said 17 you believed in -- you believed in your Department’s 18 message or -- I forget the word -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Mission. 20 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Mission, excuse me. 21 Tell me what that mission is, if you would, General. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think the 23 overriding mission of the Department of Law and Public 24 Safety is really to work to ensure the public’s trust 25 in government. And that’s something that we do across Examination - Farmer 24 1 the board. Whether it’s with respect to this issue or 2 whether it’s with respect to consumer confidence in 3 Consumer Affairs, Criminal Justice, Gaming Enforcement, 4 that’s our primary mission and I believe it’s -- you 5 can’t do more important work in government than that. 6 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: You had a difficult 7 choice, I’m certain, today having to forego speaking 8 before the new state trooper class and being here. And 9 I’m sure if it was a choice, you would have made a 10 different one perhaps. But this is an overriding issue 11 and I’m happy that you’re here before the Judiciary 12 Committee but I’m also, at at time we’re in right now, 13 somewhat -- it’s unfortunate that you could not be with 14 the state troopers. Tell me, what would you have told 15 them regarding racial profiling and what the future 16 holds for them in the state trooper division. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would have told 18 them that they are entering the Division at the perfect 19 moment because what we are establishing in the Division 20 is essentially a culture of accountability so that they 21 can be assured that they’re going to be treated fairly 22 as troopers within the State Police and by my 23 Department and that they can go out and do the right 24 thing and not have to worry. In the past, I think one 25 of the problems that led to racial profiling was an

Examination - Farmer 25 1 absence of the kind of accountability and supervision 2 that we’re putting in place, so that the actions of a 3 few could come to characterize an entire Division and 4 you could run into law enforcement by the numbers. And 5 so I think we’re getting away from that. They can rest 6 assured that they’re going to have the best equipment. 7 They’re going to have the best training. They’re going 8 to have the best everything to do their jobs. 9 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: I’d like to get some 10 technical questions, if I could, but let me ask you one 11 more perhaps philosophical question. If you had the 12 opportunity to address a large assemblance of young 13 black and Latinos at this very moment, what would your 14 address contain to them when it came to the issue of 15 racial profiling? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would tell them 17 basically that we are being more aggressive than any 18 other state in the country to ensure that people are 19 treated evenhandedly and not treated differently 20 because of the color of their skin. I would not try to 21 tell them that we’ve completely solved the problem, 22 clearly the numbers that I just laid out for you 23 indicate that we have not as of the year 2000. I think 24 there are reasons for that. I think any kind of reform 25 of this magnitude is going to entail some kind of a lag Examination - Farmer 26 1 time and that’s what we experienced in the year 2000. 2 Just for instance, the training with respect to the new 3 standard operating procedure on stops was not completed 4 until the end of August. So in some respects, the 5 consent search numbers are not fair -- are not a fair 6 way to characterize the current actions of the troopers 7 because they’ve now all been trained and we’ll see what 8 the results of that training was. 9 But I think we’re more attuned to this 10 problem than anybody else and that we’re moving 11 aggressively to redress it. 12 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Some would say that 13 these numbers are very troubling that you just showed 14 us and that -- 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: They are extremely 16 troubling. 17 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: And that there have been 18 -- there have been at least two years since the interim 19 report came out. There has been at least four years 20 since the Department of Justice took a careful look at 21 New Jersey over these statistics. What do you say to 22 your critics that say these numbers are still troubling 23 and we’re not doing either not enough or not doing 24 anything at all? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would say that,

Examination - Farmer 27 1 as I just did, this kind of reform of this magnitude 2 takes time. And as the Monitor has taken pains to 3 point out, we are committed to doing it right. There 4 are no quick fixes in a situation like this. A quick 5 analogy is in the early eighties in Miami when they had 6 a problem in the police department, they basically 7 tried to clean house. They fired everybody at the 8 upper echelons. They diversified by leaping people 9 over ranks and the end result was actual rioting within 10 the police department itself and ultimately 80 11 indictments were issued. 12 We have to get to this what I’ve called the 13 culture of accountability, but we have to do it the 14 right way. And it has taken too long, there’s no 15 question about that. That’s not something that the 16 Department would dispute. But I think what I want to 17 get across to you is our good faith in trying to get 18 there. 19 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: You mentioned in the 20 beginning that there was a deep division. One of the 21 things when you took over the Department, that there 22 was a deep division among State Police and among people 23 within your own Department. Tell us about that 24 division and tell us the status of that division now. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, that division Examination - Farmer 28 1 is something I realized early on, as I said. I started 2 to reach out to members of the State Police and hear 3 their concerns. I have tried aggressively to address 4 it and addressing the troopers to basically say we are 5 one Department. The responsibility rests at the top. 6 It’s with the Attorney General. 7 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: I was going to ask you, 8 who is the top? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s the Attorney 10 General. I bear ultimate responsibility for what 11 happens. And the only way for any of us to succeed is 12 if we move together as one Department and heal some of 13 these wounds that have existed. The current state of 14 it, I think temporarily it’s, you know, some wounds 15 have been reopened by these hearings. I have come to 16 believe that these hearings were necessary and if not 17 inevitable. I at one time was frustrated by the 18 likelihood of these hearings because I thought I was 19 making progress and actually brining people together 20 and I saw the potential for the hearings to drive a 21 wedge. But I think in a way it’s been good. It served 22 as a catharsis for the Department and when this is 23 over, I’m going to resume aggressively trying to 24 address that situation. I think, frankly, one of the 25 most important things we’ve done to bring about that

Examination - Farmer 29 1 kind of healing is establishing the State Police 2 Affairs. That office works very closely with the State 3 Police. There are State Police members within that 4 office are also lawyers. And it’s really broken down a 5 lot of the walls and barriers that had existed before 6 and I’m hoping to build on that in the future. 7 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: General, I realize, and 8 certainly sitting through these hearings for the last 9 numbers of days, I realize that you are responsible for 10 what some has estimated to be at least a 7,000 11 Department, counting State Police and people within the 12 Attorney General’s Office, and I realize that on a day- 13 to-day basis you cannot fathom or even begin to be 14 responsible for every single issue in a way that you 15 would know all the details. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 17 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: However -- however, 18 having said that, there seems to me to be at least 19 somewhat of a conclusion in my own mind that you need 20 to have people who are subordinate to you that are in 21 places of responsibility who are, in fact, taking on 22 these issues on a day-to-day basis and know all the 23 details. Assure me, if you would, by going through the 24 people that work for you, who they are, what their 25 backgrounds are, who are in charge of number one, Examination - Farmer 30 1 keeping lines of communication opened up with State 2 Police. Keeping lines of communication open with the 3 Department of Justice. And most importantly, keeping 4 information flowing into your office that you need to 5 use to make decisions on on how to rectify this 6 problem. Three areas. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: One of the truly 8 gratifying experiences I’ve had as Attorney General is 9 the quality of the people who have agreed to work with 10 me. Paul Zoubek, who’s actually my Supervisor in the 11 U.S. Attorney’s Office not too long ago. And I think 12 the world of Paul. You’ve heard a lot from him over 13 the last -- 14 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Yes, we have. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: -- few days. And 16 he is -- and he’s aggressively engaged in these issues. 17 Probably the most pivotal person is another former 18 colleague of mine from the U.S. Attorney’s Office, 19 Martin Cronin, who’s the head of the Director of State 20 Police Affairs. Marty is somebody who is extremely 21 blunt. I wanted someone who was a prosecutor, but an 22 investigative prosecutor. Someone who really knew how 23 to make cases. Someone who knew how to work with 24 police. Marty is from a police family and he fit the 25 bill perfectly. And I couldn’t have asked for a better

Examination - Farmer 31 1 person. I think there’s one thing the people around me 2 have in common, whether it’s Cathy Flicker, who’s now 3 the Director of Criminal Justice, or Paul or Marty or 4 for that matter Carson Dunbar, I want people who are 5 going to tell me the truth even if -- even if they 6 think I won’t like it. I want people who are going to 7 be extremely blunt and tell me bad news, because one of 8 the difficulties in a job like this when you’re sitting 9 on top of a Department of that size is knowing when 10 you’re getting in trouble. And if you don’t have the 11 people who are going to come to you and tell you this 12 is a problem, then ultimately you’re going to be in 13 trouble yourself. 14 So I’ve surrounded myself with people who -- 15 we have some very interesting and fiery meetings, but 16 they are people who I respect and who respect me enough 17 to tell me bluntly what they think is going on. 18 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: These are perhaps 19 questions that have never been asked before, but I 20 think they are appropriate to ask. The other person 21 who is responsible for answering to the Department of 22 Justice and -- 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That would be 24 Martin Cronin also. 25 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Okay. Your Examination - Farmer 32 1 relationship, both professionally -- more importantly 2 professionally with the Colonel, how does that work and 3 what is your contact with him on a weekly basis or a 4 day-to-day basis? 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It varies from week 6 to week. Some weeks it’s every day. Some weeks we 7 have several meetings during the course of a week and 8 other weeks it’s not -- it’s not that active, depending 9 on what my schedule is and depending where my 10 intentions are being directed. It’s been a pleasure to 11 work with Carson Dunbar. He is like Marty in some 12 ways; very, very direct. Very blunt. He may not -- 13 you may not agree with his opinion, but you’re going to 14 hear it and as I said, an organization like this, you 15 have to have that. We don’t -- we have not always 16 agreed. We don’t necessarily agree on even most 17 issues, but we have a kind of mutual respect where we 18 can hash out our differences and move beyond them. 19 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: May I ask what major 20 issues are you in disagreement about when it comes to 21 the area of racial profiling? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, one of the 23 things we’ve been talking about since we started this 24 management inquiry is what do you do about consent 25 searches. And I know that’s something that’s occupied

Examination - Farmer 33 1 the Committee -- 2 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Yes, it has, so go right 3 into it if you would. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: -- and, you know, 5 what the proper steps to take are. A month ago I was 6 of the view that I should simply issue a directive 7 ending the practice. We had a long meeting on that and 8 Carson persuaded me that -- and with actually Marty 9 joining him, that would not be the right approach 10 because consent searches can be a useful law 11 enforcement tool as I think Sergeant Gilbert testified 12 in front of this Committee. I recall a federal case 13 from ten or 15 years ago involving a terrorist on his 14 way to New York City who was stopped, I believe on 15 Route 78 or Route 80, by the State Police and a consent 16 search basically disclosed the explosives that he was 17 going to New York with. So if you had a doctrine that 18 prohibited consent searches, you might loses tens of 19 thousands of people in a case like that. 20 So once you’ve concluded that it’s not right 21 to prohibit it, what do you do? Because clearly 22 there’s a problem. 23 I think Carson favors the approach of 24 increased supervision on the road. Have a Supervisor 25 at every -- at every consent search. And frankly, one Examination - Farmer 34 1 of the advantages that we’re gaining from graduating 2 these classes is that it is freeing Supervisors up so 3 that they can actually have one in the barracks and one 4 on the road so that they will be available for that 5 kind of mission. Our concern with that is the length 6 of time it will take the Supervisor to actually get to 7 the stop. That could conceivably jeopardize officers’ 8 safety in some circumstances if it takes too long. It 9 could also, frankly, turn the stop into a custodial 10 arrest based on U.S. v. Dickey, if you take too long to 11 get there. 12 So we are wrestling with the same issue that 13 the Committee has wrestled with and I can’t tell you at 14 this point that we -- that we have come to terms 15 exactly with what we’re going to do. One of the things 16 that I’m strongly in favor of is where we’ve identified 17 a trooper who seems to have a problem with his consent 18 searches, to suspend his ability to perform until he is 19 -- his case is disposed of and he’s either retrained or 20 transferred or depending on how severe the infractions, 21 terminate him. 22 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Have you reached out at 23 all to community activists, community leaders and to 24 find out from them their opinions as to where State 25 Police have been, where they’re going to, and your

Examination - Farmer 35 1 relationship as the Attorney General with those 2 community leaders? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes, I have. 4 Carson and I have both spoken on numerous occasions in 5 front of community groups. And, in fact, one of the 6 things I think we really need to do in this state is to 7 have some kind of a dialogue where community leaders 8 and State Police folks are really in the same room 9 talking, because it’s in that kind of forum that I 10 think you’ll see the people’s different definitions of 11 racial profiling emerge. 12 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Well, explain the forum 13 a little bit, because you said you’ve spoken before 14 these groups. Tell me what the forum was like. 15 Because if you had spoken before them, that doesn’t to 16 me transcend that you’re getting a lot of information 17 back from them. It sounds like you’re talking to them. 18 Tell me about the forum. 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I’ve spoken 20 at, you know, the Black Ministers Council last year. 21 I’ve spoken at numerous community forums of varying 22 sizes. So the level of feedback that you get depends 23 on the size of the group you’re addressing and how free 24 they feel to talk to you afterwards. But it’s been one 25 of my constants on my schedule is going out and Examination - Farmer 36 1 speaking on this issue, both to community groups and to 2 law enforcement groups. And as I said, the 3 perspectives you get are different enough that it’s a 4 cause for concern. 5 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: General, you have a lot 6 on your plate obviously. There has been some 7 accusations, and perhaps rightfully so, that there are 8 a lot of people responsible for racial profiling. That 9 at one time or another State Police were getting 10 conflicting instructions saying that hey, look, if you 11 do certain -- do a certain profiling, you’ll probably 12 catch a lot of bad guys that are out there. And then 13 Civil Justice saying but if you do that, you’re 14 violating people’s civil rights. We have community 15 activists who say that a lot of people are being 16 offended by this line of work. But let’s talk about 17 government for a moment. There’s plenty of 18 responsibility to be shared by a lot of folks here. 19 What do you say to the Legislature? What can we do to 20 help you in what you’ve now addressed as your number 21 one issue for the last two years? What do you need 22 from the Legislature to do this, to undo what has been 23 done and where we want to head to? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I think a 25 year ago when I testified at my budget hearings, I

Examination - Farmer 37 1 opposed at that time codification of the reforms for a 2 couple of reasons. One, they were embodied in a 3 consent order so they had the force of law. But more 4 importantly, we needed to find out what worked before 5 we codified. I think if the Legislature were to move 6 in any direction immediately, I would suggest that you 7 codify and clarify the lines of responsibility with 8 respect to the Office of State Police Affairs and my 9 office. 10 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: And have you issued a 11 report on that codification? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No, I have not. 13 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Would you -- 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’d be happy to 15 work with you though on developing some kind of 16 proposal along those lines. The Office has proven 17 invaluable in attempting to build a bridge between my 18 office and the Division of State Police and I think 19 it’s really the key to the future of this relationship. 20 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Whether through me or 21 through any of the other 119 members of the 22 Legislature, I’m sure that we all would be willing to 23 work with you and accept your offer to work with you on 24 codification. So please accept that as our invitation 25 to find out more about that. Examination - Farmer 38 1 What else besides the codification, General? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: You know, I’ve seen 3 the various proposals that are out there. I think one 4 thing that’s absolutely essential that it occur, and 5 this doesn’t pertain strictly to State Police, I 6 believe there should be cameras in every police car in 7 the state. I think a law ought to be passed that 8 provides for that. It’s good law enforcement. It’s 9 also -- it’s also a form of property tax relief to the 10 extent that some towns have already spent property tax 11 money to put these cameras in their cars. The cameras 12 in the cars are absolutely crucial to getting to where 13 I think we need to be which is to evaluate these cases 14 on an individual basis. Because with the cameras in 15 the cars, you have -- you have proof where you never 16 had it before. Where before you just had, you know, 17 one person’s word against another, the cameras give you 18 a window into what really goes on. And that’s what 19 we’re finding to be so valuable in this management 20 inquiry that we’re doing now. 21 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: The reforms that you 22 talked about in your opening statement, the 23 computerization, the request of detail that is now 24 required in every stop, has that transcended down to 25 county and local police departments?

Examination - Farmer 39 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know the 2 answer to that question. I think we’re probably doing 3 more than most, but I don’t know. I think there’s 4 quite a bit of variance among local and municipal 5 police departments. That’s something that I should 6 look at. 7 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: As chief law enforcement 8 officer of the State, do you think it’s appropriate 9 that all Departments act in uniformity, regardless of 10 whether they’re the local PD or the State Police? Do 11 you work in uniformity with regard to these standards? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure, 13 because, you know, the State Police have a unique 14 mission as a highway patrol in the state and I’m not 15 sure that with respect to local police departments that 16 you would need to require as much of them because they 17 don’t do as much of the road type work that the State 18 Police does. To the extent that you have a road- 19 intensive police department, I think they should look 20 at doing something like what we’ve done. 21 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: But certainly there are 22 stops that are made by county officers and local 23 officers that would be using the same profiling 24 tactics, whether they’re on the highway or they’re on 25 the street as pedestrians. You don’t think that’s an Examination - Farmer 40 1 important element to include in all departments? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Frankly, that’s the 3 reason I think that they should all have cameras in 4 their cars. I’m just not sure beyond that whether 5 towns should incur the cost of computerization that 6 we’re incurring and require the level of reporting that 7 we’re requiring. 8 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Well, I’m not so sure 9 that the municipalities would disagree with you. They 10 shouldn’t probably incur the cost. I think that would 11 be a cost that they would look for the State to absorb 12 but, quite frankly, it sounds to me like this is the 13 grounds for a very short debate because it would seem 14 to me that uniformity in treating the community at 15 large is more important than the cost that we have to 16 concern ourselves with right now. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: If it could be done 18 economically, I would support it. 19 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: I’m asking if you would 20 as a chief law enforcement officer look into that and 21 report back to this Committee -- 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Sure. 23 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: -- of your results to 24 make that a uniform practice throughout the state. 25 Is there anything else, General, that you

Examination - Farmer 41 1 would like to add in painting this picture of how we 2 wrestle with the issue of profiling? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not at this time, 4 no. 5 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: One last question. 6 Yesterday First Assistant I guess it is -- 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 8 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: -- Attorney General 9 Zoubek appeared before us and indicated that there was 10 an RFP out regarding doing a statistical base analysis 11 of stops, consent searches, speed searches. Where are 12 we with that RFP and can you please tell us when it’s 13 going to be completed? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: What he is 15 referring to there is this is what I’ve referred to as 16 a partial violator survey. And what it involves is 17 basically the taking through a high-speed, high-tech 18 camera that is incredibly accurate, pictures of cars as 19 they drive by. It’s being done at 14 different 20 locations throughout the state. The RFP has already 21 come back. We’ve actually started the actual work. I 22 don’t know how long it’s going to take to complete it. 23 What we’re hoping to get is a snapshot, so to speak, of 24 if there are any differences, based on race or 25 ethnicity among the driving population, of speeds. Examination - Farmer 42 1 SENATOR MATHEUSSEN: Nothing further. 2 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator O’Connor. 3 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 General, good morning. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good morning. 6 SENATOR O’CONNOR: It’s good to see you. 7 I think that there is a feeling around this 8 table that had you been at the helm back when this all 9 started, we wouldn’t be here today having the hearings. 10 But in any event, I’d like to ask you a few questions 11 just to follow up. 12 This class that is graduating today, are 13 there minority members in the class? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 15 SENATOR O’CONNOR: And I know that there’s 16 been some effort made to recruit minorities. Would you 17 care to comment on that? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. We have -- we 19 have tripled the budget for recruiting and have been 20 attempting to diversify. We entered into a consent 21 decree with the NAACP last -- I think February, 22 February of the year 2000, in which we set forth our 23 goals with respect to recruiting. Diversity is our 24 goal. We have obviously not gotten there yet. I think 25 the current class is a little bit under 20 percent

Examination - Farmer 43 1 minority which is not where we want to be. But, you 2 know, frankly, this is an issue that Departments around 3 the country have been struggling with and I believe 4 Portland, Oregon recently dropped its four-year degree 5 requirement because of the difficulty they were having 6 in attracting qualified women and minorities to the 7 police department. 8 I think we’ve done quite well given the 9 struggles that every Department around the country has 10 been having. But we can do better. 11 SENATOR O’CONNOR: What was your goal in 12 terms of minority representation for this class? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, obviously we 14 want to stay away from unconstitutional quotas. So 15 what we agreed with the NAACP is that we would have a 16 target of 30 percent minority and women entering the 17 pool to take the test. In other words, so that there 18 would be a screening process after the quota and our 19 feeling was that that process would be constitutional 20 as opposed to setting an absolute number. 21 SENATOR O’CONNOR: How many classes have 22 there been since you became Attorney General of the 23 State Police? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: This is the second. 25 But they’re smaller classes. I don’t want to mislead Examination - Farmer 44 1 you. There will be five graduating in the next two 2 months. We’ve changed the way that the Academy is 3 structured so that the classes aren’t as large as they 4 were. We’ve gone to an adult base learning curriculum 5 that’s used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, among 6 others, and found them to be very effective. So the 7 class sizes are smaller. It’s still the same 8 essentials that are being taught, but they’re being 9 taught in a different way. And as I said, there will 10 be three more classes graduating in the next few weeks. 11 So it’s a very positive development and we have another 12 series of classes coming this summer. 13 SENATOR O’CONNOR: How have the minority 14 numbers shaped up in the two -- well, you said there 15 are since you became, and then there are three more 16 coming onboard. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Gradually, I don’t 18 have the exact numbers, but there is gradual increase 19 representation in the subsequent classes. 20 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Okay. And how about the 21 numbers of NCO’s and officers in the State Police 22 ranks? How are they in terms of minority 23 representation? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know 25 numbers, but I’ll get them for you.

Examination - Farmer 45 1 SENATOR O’CONNOR: The studies that you did 2 on the numbers of stops and consent searches, et 3 cetera, was there any breakdown in terms of the numbers 4 as they were done by minority troopers? 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. No. 6 Interestingly though, the Justice Department survey 7 that I talked about basically found no difference with 8 respect to the race of the officer, which I guess is 9 consistent with what they found several years ago in 10 New Jersey. But we did not do that, no. 11 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Now, you talked originally 12 about there being some resistance, both within the 13 State Police ranks as well as in the Office of the 14 Attorney General, even in light of what appeared to be, 15 you know, very, very convincing numbers that indicated 16 that racial profiling was going on. How, now that 17 you’ve made the efforts that you’ve descried for us, 18 how has the morale been in the State Police and in the 19 Attorney General’s Office? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think the morale 21 in the State Police is low. It’s been low for a couple 22 years. It’s going to take a while to turn it around 23 because we’re going through a period of really 24 convulsive change. But what’s really impressed me is 25 that the cooperation with respect to getting these Examination - Farmer 46 1 reforms done does not seem to have been affected by the 2 low morale. We have had cooperation from the State 3 Police, not just from Colonel Dunbar, but from the 4 people around him and I’m very gratified by that. 5 SENATOR O’CONNOR: You mentioned before that 6 the people that have been identified as having been 7 offenders in terms of racial profiling have been pretty 8 much identified and you talked about in terms of 9 disciplinary proceedings, perhaps suspension of these 10 people until the disciplinary matter is resolved, is 11 there anything that’s anticipated in the way of 12 retraining for these people? Assuming that -- 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Actually the -- the 14 way the consent decree treats problematic conduct is, 15 and what we’re trying to get to with this MAP system 16 that we’re putting in place, is a system that we can 17 identify problems in their incipient stages so that we 18 can intervene very early on in a trooper’s career if he 19 seems to be going down the wrong path and effect that 20 retraining. That is what -- that is what the consent 21 decree contemplates. To the extent that you have 22 people who, you know, who may be more serious 23 offenders, obviously, you know, disciplinary steps will 24 have to be taken. 25 SENATOR O’CONNOR: You’ve given us the

Examination - Farmer 47 1 statistics which indicate that racial profiling is not 2 unique to New Jersey, it’s pretty much a national 3 problem. And I’m wondering, do you have any statistics 4 as to how this problem evidences itself in other law 5 enforcement agencies around the State of New Jersey; 6 local level, county level, et cetera? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m aware of other 8 State Police forces that are encountering this problem. 9 I think in Texas they’re encountering the problem. 10 North Carolina is actually doing a Justice Department 11 funded violator survey similar to the one that we’re 12 now doing. You know, I go occasionally to meetings of 13 the National Association of Attorneys General and 14 basically everyone is asking us what they should do. 15 We met last month in Washington and I met with Attorney 16 General Ashcroft at the time. And the two of us went 17 out and spoke to the other 49 Attorneys General about 18 this issue and we are looked to as the cutting edge 19 jurisdiction with respect to this issue. But it is 20 coming up in multiple jurisdictions. 21 SENATOR O’CONNOR: I’ve been told that, you 22 know, what we know of racial profiling is really the 23 tip of the iceberg in that I mean it goes on in a 24 variety of things, you know, not the least of which are 25 airports and, you know. Do you have any statistics or Examination - Farmer 48 1 any evidence of any of that? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Airports? Well, I 3 can tell you that one of the problems that I’ve alluded 4 to was the problems in the case law and one of the 5 cases that is cited frequently by law enforcement when 6 I have spoken to them is a case from the 8th Circuit, 7 United States v. Weaver. In that case a young black 8 male was arrested coming off a flight from Los Angeles 9 to Kansas City and the DEA agent testified that the 10 reason that he absolutely took his race into account 11 because he had information that young black males from 12 California were carrying dope into Kansas City. And 13 the 8th Circuit basically said look, it’s an unpleasant 14 fact of life, but that was good information and this 15 arrest was valid. And, you know, what we’ve been 16 confronted with with the State Police is you have case 17 law that upholds that kind of conduct and arguably 18 that’s what the State Police police have been doing, 19 using the drug courier profiles. It’s legitimate 20 information. It usually has to do with people coming, 21 you know, from the South with drugs or from the North 22 with money. And the real question is not a legal 23 question, it’s a policy question. The policy question 24 is is it worth it? Is it worth it to pursue those 25 practices when your success rates are so low? When you

Examination - Farmer 49 1 have a success rate with Hispanics of five percent, is 2 it worth the civil liberties angst that you incur by 3 tossing all those cars and finding nothing? And we’ve 4 answered the question, no, it’s not. And the measures 5 we’re trying to put in place are measures that will 6 stop that practice in the future. 7 SENATOR O’CONNOR: You said that you came 8 very close to issuing a directive saying that there 9 would be no more consent to search in New Jersey. You 10 backed off that. Is that something that you’re sort of 11 reserving your decision on or what? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No, I’m persuaded 13 that you can’t take that away from the police. It’s a 14 valuable law enforcement tool. I mentioned the case of 15 a terrorist going to New York, if they’re forbidden 16 from asking for consent, that person gets into New York 17 and a lot of people get killed. So it’s a valuable law 18 enforcement technique. What we have to make sure is 19 that it’s used judiciously on the roads. 20 And the other thing, it’s always of paramount 21 concern and something that we have to emphasize is, you 22 know, if you make a decision like that and you say you 23 can’t ask for consent to search, maybe you make the 24 officers hesitant to act. Maybe when they have 25 something in their mind that this doesn’t look right, Examination - Farmer 50 1 maybe they’re afraid to act and maybe someone gets 2 hurt. Maybe an officer gets shot. And you can’t -- 3 you absolutely can’t afford that. We’ve made that 4 clear with the Justice Department in our negotiations, 5 that our primary concern was that whatever we do in 6 this way, does not jeopardize officer safety because 7 that’s simply unacceptable. And the Justice Department 8 frankly was very flexible in that regard. 9 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Thank you very much, 10 General. 11 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Zane. 12 SENATOR ZANE: General, I recognize that you 13 were saying that we have a lot to do and I recognize 14 that you are telling us a number of things that you, in 15 concert with others, have suggested that begun and I’m 16 not critical of any of those things that you’re 17 suggesting. And I compliment you for them. However, 18 you as the chief law enforcement officer, really the 19 head of the State Police and the Attorney General’s 20 Office, how do you explain why it’s happening? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s a tough one. 22 I think there are a myriad of reasons and I say that 23 because -- frankly, because we have that information 24 now. I’ve had the opportunity to view some of these 25 videos and, you know, I viewed one video that did not

Examination - Farmer 51 1 seem to be malicious conduct at all, but the reality of 2 the video was that a black driver was pulled over. 3 Wasn’t speeding. He was in the left-hand lane. And he 4 ultimately was given a ticket for having an odor -- an 5 air freshener hanging from the rear-view mirror. Hard 6 to account for that. I’ve seen other video tapes that 7 are more disturbing than that where a carload of 8 Hispanic drivers was detained on the side of the road 9 for over an hour. Where obscenities were used. Where 10 ultimately consent to search was given by the Hispanic 11 driver and nothing was found. And I think you’re 12 dealing with two different -- you’re dealing with two 13 different troopers in those situations. I would say 14 that the second one is a lot more problematic than the 15 first. The first may simply be someone who needs 16 sensitivity training. The second one may be somebody 17 who needs to be terminated. I can’t account for why. 18 In fact, one of the reasons I did consider basically 19 directing that no more consent searches happen is, 20 given all the publicity that’s occurred over the last 21 few years over this issue, I can’t account for why some 22 of this is still going on other than perhaps a belief 23 that no one is going to look. And that’s simply not 24 going to be true anymore. 25 SENATOR ZANE: General, I asked the former Examination - Farmer 52 1 Attorney General what he thought were the three most 2 important issues that he faced and he put racial 3 profiling as number one. Do you have the same view as 4 to where your efforts have been directed to be, the 5 most significant issue that you dealt with? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would say so, 7 yeah, because it so directly affects public confidence 8 in government. The contact, the interaction between 9 the public and the police is the most basic interaction 10 there is and if the public doesn’t have confidence in 11 that interaction, you know, you have a problem. 12 SENATOR ZANE: I think the obvious thing you 13 think of when you see these numbers, and the numbers 14 are still reflective of the same kind of numbers that 15 we saw in 1995 and 1996, would you agree with that? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: They are a little 17 bit lower but -- 18 SENATOR ZANE: I understand. 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: -- ball park, yes. 20 SENATOR ZANE: Yeah. And I think the obvious 21 thing you think of is prejudice. Sometimes in my mind 22 I guess I balance that against what you said -- and we 23 saw figures also in somebody else’s testimony 24 beforehand that the number of minority troopers stopped 25 the same proportion of black troopers as did white

Examination - Farmer 53 1 troopers. I don’t think that totally dispels the issue 2 of prejudice, but it makes one wonder. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, it could be 4 prejudice harbored by law enforcement regardless of 5 race. 6 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: As to who the 8 likely offenders are. 9 SENATOR ZANE: And you can put all the bells 10 and whistles and TV cameras and everything else in a 11 car to record all this, but don’t you have to do 12 something with that very basic problem somehow? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, we obviously 14 try to address that through training and the training 15 is as the Monitors notice, state of the art. But 16 you’re right, I mean ultimately it gets down to the 17 individual officer on the road vested with discretion 18 by virtue of his training and his badge. And we’ve got 19 to make sure that those people have the best training 20 and that if they have attitudes that are nefarious, 21 that we root them out. But it’s a tough issue because 22 I mean this Legislature just last year passed the 23 primary seatbelt law, largely based on information that 24 black males are more than twice as likely not to wear 25 their seatbelts and that was a position that was Examination - Farmer 54 1 endorsed by the Council of Ministers and Reginald 2 Jackson. But what is that going to result in if it’s 3 enforced evenhandedly? If the truth is that young 4 black males are more likely not to wear seatbelts, that 5 means they’re going to be ticketed more under that law. 6 Does that mean -- does that mean that law enforcement 7 is prejudiced then? These are tough issues and I think 8 not enough attention has been paid to the consequences 9 of passing bills like that. I know in Massachusetts 10 they didn’t pass the primary seatbelt law for exactly 11 that reason, that it would result in a disproportionate 12 number of tickets being given to young black males not 13 wearing seatbelts. 14 But I don’t think we can turn a blind eye to 15 those realities and ask, you know, not ask those 16 questions. 17 SENATOR ZANE: How do you differentiate the 18 numbers out of Newark versus the numbers of Cranbury 19 and even further down in Moorestown? What do you think 20 the difference is? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 22 SENATOR ZANE: I mean you’re doing the same 23 thing in all three places now, am I correct? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. Yes. 25 Although I have to tell you, to date we’re working our

Examination - Farmer 55 1 way north. We’ve done Moorestown. We’re doing 2 Cranbury. We’ll ultimately do Newark. But I can’t 3 account for the difference, why Newark seems to be more 4 in line with where you’d expect it to be. What I’ve 5 heard is it’s a busier roadway. So there isn’t as much 6 free time, so to speak. 7 SENATOR ZANE: But the numbers -- but the 8 numbers in the north were essentially the same as the 9 numbers in the south, ‘95, ‘96, ‘97 and ‘98, correct? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: You know, I don’t 11 know that. I’m not sure. 12 SENATOR ZANE: I think they were. 13 When you say that the morale is low among the 14 state troopers, how is that reflecting itself? What 15 are you seeing that tells you that? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: You know, I don’t 17 know that it’s manifested itself in conduct 18 necessarily, but you hear it. You know, when I go 19 around and speak to various groups and there are 20 troopers there, you know, they’ll tell me and you hear 21 it from troopers at work that morale is low and, you 22 know, people -- I think there is a sense that we’re on 23 the right path but, you know, it’s tough for any Agency 24 to take that kind of publicity that it’s taken for 25 several years now and not for it to have some effect on Examination - Farmer 56 1 people’s general satisfaction at work. 2 SENATOR ZANE: Thank you. 3 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Girgenti. 4 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Thank you very much. 5 Good morning, General. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good morning. 7 SENATOR GIRGENTI: General, you know, you 8 gave a very good presentation earlier in terms of an 9 update, but some of these questions I had thought about 10 on the way down and I may be overlapping some of the 11 things you may have said, but I think it’s important 12 for the record to get them out. 13 You know, what has struck me in all the 14 testimony we’ve heard so far is almost the complete 15 lack of empathy for the rights of the public in the 16 past. Everyone was more worried about, quite frankly 17 from my opinion, CYA; cover yourself. As AG of this 18 state, you are also the public advocate, in my opinion, 19 because we no longer have a public advocate. So that 20 role would fall within your offices. Can you tell me 21 how policies and practices are different than what I 22 have just described in terms of lack of empathy, CYA, 23 under your administration now? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I think the 25 key to addressing the CYA issue is something that’s I

Examination - Farmer 57 1 think endemic to any bureaucracy. And the key is to 2 have the right structure in place so that the confusion 3 doesn’t result and I think the CYA mentality takes root 4 really where there’s, you know, a lack of clear 5 direction in the hierarchy and, you know, I think by 6 creating the Office of the State Police Affairs we’ve 7 tried to address that and by surrounding myself with 8 people who I, you know, who are candid to the point of 9 being blunt with me, I’m hoping that that message gets 10 down that that’s something that I value and I want 11 people to tell me the unpleasant news. 12 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. Well, you 13 know, this is not a reflection on you. You happen to 14 be here now, but I’m talking about the history leading 15 up to this point. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Right. 17 SENATOR GIRGENTI: I know that you are making 18 positive strides, I just hope you will continue to. 19 I don’t know if it’s intentional, you know, from again 20 the testimony leading up to this point, everyone seems 21 to be working in isolation. You know, we were talking 22 about different individuals in the bureaucracy you just 23 mentioned. Very little communication. People not 24 knowing who is supervising who we’ve heard. I don’t 25 know if you’ve been paying attention to the testimony. Examination - Farmer 58 1 What communication mechanisms have you put in place to 2 coordinate or overcome the problems that we’ve seen in 3 this lack of communication? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, basically 5 every communication between my office and State Police 6 goes through Martin Cronin. And he has a staff of 20. 7 You know, if you decide to codify his office, you might 8 want to augment their budget. They could double in 9 size, I think, and still have plenty to do. But I 10 think that’s something that did not exist in the past. 11 A single point of contact for issues as they arise for 12 the Superintendent, or for anybody else for that 13 matter. I think that’s the key. If you have clear 14 lines of communication and people understand who 15 they’re supposed to be talking to, that’s a key. 16 We also put together -- and this was done by 17 Paul Zoubek really before I arrived, a working group 18 comprising people from my Administrator’s Office, from 19 Criminal Justice, from State Police, State Police 20 Affairs that meets once a week, and basically keeps 21 tabs on where we are with these reforms. What’s moving 22 forward. What’s lagging. Where do we need to push. 23 Who do we need to push. And I think that’s also been 24 helpful. 25 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. Now, you did

Examination - Farmer 59 1 cover some of this, but just as an update now. What 2 kind of reports do you get in terms of updates and how 3 often do they come in in terms of this racial profiling 4 issue? Is it something that you go over weekly? How 5 do you handle this? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It varies from week 7 to week. At least a couple times a week I will have 8 a -- 9 SENATOR GIRGENTI: But you have been focused 10 on this and so you’re -- 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 12 SENATOR GIRGENTI: -- getting updates all the 13 time. And what type of data are we collecting? Is it 14 just the stops or consent to search? What’s being 15 collected? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It’s very 17 comprehensive. I mean I know Senator Zane, he’s not 18 here, but had a question yesterday about are we 19 collecting data with respect to those who refuse 20 consent? And the answer to that is yes. We are 21 collecting that data. We have not isolated that data 22 at this point, but I think it’s a valuable thing to do. 23 We are collecting information, which I went 24 over in my statement, but it’s very comprehensive with 25 respect to every stop and every roadside encounter. Examination - Farmer 60 1 And that’s something that’s different and allows us to 2 make the kind of individual assessments that I’ve been 3 talking about. 4 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. And then we 5 kept talking throughout the period up until now about 6 throughout the years there was talk of this violator 7 survey. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 9 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Now, where are we with it? 10 Did you say you are in the process of doing it or -- 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It’s being 12 conducted, yes. 13 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Okay. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It started a couple 15 of weeks ago. I’m not sure when it will be finished. 16 As I said, it’s these high-tech cameras at 14 different 17 locations. One of the reasons we didn’t announce we 18 were doing it when we started it was we don’t want -- 19 we don’t want people to know that they’re being -- 20 having their picture taken because it might affect 21 their behavior and that will skew the results. But 22 since it’s out, it’s out. And we do have a couple 23 weeks worth of data to work with and I’m not sure 24 exactly, as I’ve said, when it’s going to end. One of 25 the problems in doing a violator survey, frankly, and

Examination - Farmer 61 1 we did talk about this with the Justice Department when 2 we were negotiating the consent decree, is reliability. 3 How do you know you have a workable result? The 4 Justice Department did not want a violator survey in 5 the consent decree. We were -- we were not sure 6 whether we needed one or not. But when we got the stop 7 numbers at the end of last year, they remained 8 problematic. I decided to go ahead and do it. 9 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Do other states presently, 10 have you seen background in terms of other states doing 11 these violator surveys or -- 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I know of one in 13 North Carolina, yes. It’s being conducted. 14 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. Another 15 question I have. How are we continuing to conduct drug 16 interdiction on our major highways? How has this 17 affected that? I know, you know, I don’t have to go 18 through the history, Operation Pipeline, going back and 19 now -- has there been a change in philosophy during 20 your tenure in terms of the emphasis being in certain 21 areas? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 23 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Could you -- 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We have obviously 25 de-emphasized interdiction as a primary policy goal. Examination - Farmer 62 1 We have told troopers that if it’s there, I mean if 2 they have reasonable suspicion, that they should 3 proceed. If they have probable cause, they should 4 proceed. But basically what we have done is we are 5 trying to emphasize longer term investigative 6 interdiction and we have assigned state troopers to 7 each of the 21 county narcotics task forces, which had 8 been curtailed in the past. We think that that’s the 9 level where it’s most appropriate. So the State 10 Police, in other words, would be concentrated at the 11 street level in the counties where the drugs hit and 12 they would have longer term investigative efforts 13 underway to seize larger shipments. 14 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And then just finally, 15 despite the stain on the reputation of the State Police 16 as a result of what’s gone on, it’s important, as we 17 all know, to recognize and award excellent behavior. 18 How are you recognizing the top performers? For 19 instance, such as in the past there’s been trooper of 20 the year. There’s been a criticism of that program 21 because of just looking for aggressiveness or numbers. 22 Quality sometimes instead of quantity. What have you 23 done or has been your involvement in terms of changing 24 this or what -- 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We still have --

Examination - Farmer 63 1 there was a suggestion at one point to end trooper of 2 the year. We still -- we have retained trooper of the 3 year. We have changed the criteria by which that award 4 is defined. For example, last year it went to one of 5 the officers in the community policing area. And 6 basically the area where he was patrolling saw a 7 decrease in complaints and violent incidents. That was 8 several fold over a period before he got there. So 9 there was a marked decrease in crime based on his 10 efforts. In the future we’re going to be looking at 11 things like acts of heroism and community policing and 12 those kind of areas rather than simply arrest 13 statistics. 14 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Because, you know, that 15 sends the message from the top. If you’re going to 16 encourage -- not that we do not want an aggressive 17 pursuit of wrongdoers, but the fact is that that would 18 encourage just numbers as opposed to what you’re saying 19 in terms of characteristics that have heroism and 20 things of that order. So no, I think that’s a good 21 idea. I had known that there had been a change. There 22 was a great criticism of the program a while back and I 23 think you’re on the right track. 24 Thank you. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The award should be Examination - Farmer 64 1 about character, yeah. 2 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Kosco. 3 SENATOR KOSCO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 First of all, a couple comments. There are a 5 number of reasons why the morality in the police 6 department is low. I don’t believe it’s simply because 7 of the racial profiling hearings, but I believe that 8 the State Police in many instances feel that they’re 9 not consulted when things are needed. For example, the 10 problem that you’re going through with the guns right 11 now. It took a number of years for the police 12 department, for the State Police to get new weapons and 13 when they finally did get them, they didn’t work. And, 14 you know, these are the things that add up to -- 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No question. 16 SENATOR KOSCO: -- a whole package of 17 problems that we experience with the State Police. 18 A second comment is that you spoke about the 19 seatbelt law. When that seatbelt law was passed, the 20 things that you brought up and wanted discussed, it was 21 passed for a person’s safety reasons and to help 22 provide safer highways. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Exactly. 24 SENATOR KOSCO: It had nothing to do with 25 what types of people or who wore seatbelts and who

Examination - Farmer 65 1 didn’t wear seatbelts. 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think Reverend 3 Jackson’s position on that was that the safety concern 4 overrode any concern he might have about 5 disproportionate arrests. So, you’re right, that was 6 the predominant concern. 7 SENATOR KOSCO: Do we know what the policy is 8 on the states that are surrounding us as it pertains to 9 consent searches? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know the 11 extent to which they require what we do, which is 12 reasonable suspicion. I’m not sure. Some states -- 13 there are a few states that require probable cause 14 before you do a consent search. Most states require 15 nothing, because the nature of a consent search is that 16 you don’t have constitutional grounds to search the 17 car, so you ask permission. We are -- we are one of 18 the few states that require reasonable suspicion and we 19 were the first to go in that direction. I don’t know 20 what the contiguous states require. 21 SENATOR KOSCO: During these hearings we’ve 22 experienced a number of times when people weren’t quite 23 sure who reported to them. Who was responsible for 24 what. In one case we had one of the top officials in 25 the Department said that he didn’t know that the person Examination - Farmer 66 1 that was supposedly handling the reports going to the 2 Department of Justice worked for him until he was there 3 for several months. And that was of deep concern to 4 us. Do you have an organizational chart in your 5 Department with names of who’s responsible for what? 6 What their positions are? And who answers to who? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We can provide that 8 if you’re interested in looking at it. But basically 9 the Office of State Police Affairs is the point -- is 10 the point office with respect to all of those issues 11 now. So there shouldn’t -- that particular confusion 12 should not arise again. 13 SENATOR KOSCO: But do you have an 14 organizational chart so someone can look at it and say, 15 well this is the Deputy Attorney General that’s 16 responsible for this reporting. This person is 17 responsible for providing the information to the 18 Department of Justice or whoever requests -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We can provide one 20 to you. 21 SENATOR KOSCO: You do have a chart. 22 What would you reaction be to establishing 23 the head of the police, the State Police, as a Cabinet 24 position? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Separate from my

Examination - Farmer 67 1 Department? 2 SENATOR KOSCO: Yeah. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would oppose 4 that. 5 (Laughter) 6 I think it makes very little sense -- you 7 know, other states -- other states do have a Highway 8 Patrol that is separate from the Attorney General’s 9 Office, but in those other states, the Highway Patrol 10 is a Highway Patrol, and it doesn’t -- the mission does 11 not have the scope in terms of law enforcement that our 12 State Police does. In doing that, that I’m the chief 13 law enforcement officer, I’m supposed to have the -- 14 functions under me, I think it makes no sense to break 15 them out separately unless you reduced the 16 responsibilities in a way that I don’t think anybody 17 really wants to do. 18 SENATOR KOSCO: Well, if we had a situation 19 where the head of the State Police wants to institute a 20 policy and has to go through the Attorney General’s 21 Office in order to get it, and then the buck gets 22 passed, if you will, because I didn’t get the 23 information back. And the Attorney General’s Office 24 says well, I didn’t get the information or I don’t 25 remember seeing that and we constantly don’t know where Examination - Farmer 68 1 we can -- we can say well, it’s your Department, why 2 haven’t you made the correction rather than going 3 through a number of cases in order to do it? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think we’ve 5 corrected that. I think we’ve corrected that situation 6 with the Office of State Police Affairs. 7 SENATOR KOSCO: Is there a specific person in 8 your Department that the head of the State Police goes 9 to now? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes, it’s Martin 11 Cronin. 12 SENATOR KOSCO: Thank you. 13 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Robertson. 14 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 15 Good morning, John. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good morning. 17 SENATOR ROBERTSON: I was wondering if you 18 could help me by walking through a little bit the steps 19 that resulted in the formulation of these diagnostics? 20 Let me, first of all, say that we’ve had many 21 discussions starting back in 1999 and this Committee 22 and with representatives in the Attorney General’s 23 Office about the need for better management information 24 so that we can draw a conclusion. Obviously, they’re 25 just a starting point, but at least we can draw some

Examination - Farmer 69 1 conclusions. And even with the former Superintendent 2 of the State Police, Colonel Williams, when he was 3 here, and one of the other troopers, even with what 4 little information we had then based upon our review, I 5 would ask how do you account for these numbers? And in 6 both instances they said I don’t know we explain them. 7 And I think that’s a telling point. And now that we 8 have the consent search numbers and the find rates, 9 because one of the primary things that I’ve been 10 concerned about and I’ve said it on more than one 11 occasion is, that it tells an important story if the 12 find rates are similar throughout the races or if the 13 white find rate happens to be higher than the black 14 find rate, why then is the suspicion rate three or four 15 times higher if the find rate is similar? And I think 16 that’s an important lesson for everybody to take to 17 heart and to take note of. Especially troopers who 18 don’t feel that they have race hate in their heart when 19 they go out there and do their jobs. And I think that 20 sometimes they do get a bad rap when, in fact, they’re 21 trying to do their jobs as they’ve been trained. So 22 these diagnostics are very important. 23 So the question is, walk me through again how 24 you came to the point of the development of the 25 diagnostics. Does this flow out of the consent order, Examination - Farmer 70 1 for instance? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. The consent 3 order basically incorporates by reference or embodies 4 the SOP’s that Mr. Cronin’s office, in consultation 5 with the State Police, developed for roadside stops. 6 And the fundamental change in those SOP’s had to do 7 with the level of detail required. For example, when 8 you ask for consent to search, it’s not enough simply 9 to say well, I had reasonable suspicion. You now have 10 to articulate what exactly was it that made you suspect 11 that something was afoot. And it has to be somehow, it 12 has to be linked to your reason for asking for the 13 search. That information really didn’t exist in prior 14 reports and that’s why we can do the kind of analysis 15 that we’ve done -- 16 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Other than as comments. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Right. 18 SENATOR ROBERTSON: But not in any organized 19 way. 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: But not in any 21 organized way. And that’s enabled us to do the kind of 22 analysis that we demonstrated this morning. And when 23 you couple that kind of data with what you have on 24 videotape, you really are moving toward a system where 25 you can make individual judgments and you’re not going

Examination - Farmer 71 1 to be really a captive of gross statistics anymore. 2 To answer your question, the SOP’s, they’re 3 now being used. The provision for the computerization, 4 beginning to put in place this month. The MAP system 5 which will basically be an integration of a trooper’s 6 road record, his Internal Affairs file. Everything 7 will be in one place so you can really start to see 8 trends developing with respect to individual troopers. 9 Video cameras, all of that is embodied in the consent 10 decree. 11 SENATOR ROBERTSON: And as a manager, do you 12 find this information to be helpful? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Terrifically, yes. 14 I mean what I tried to demonstrate this morning with 15 those slides is, we can do a level of analysis that we 16 never could do before and with an assurance of 17 reliability that we never had. 18 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Now, I know it’s in the 19 nature of the consent order that both parties consent, 20 but is there anything in the nature of that consent 21 order that’s required -- that requires something of New 22 Jersey that is really undesirable in your opinion? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t think so. 24 SENATOR ROBERTSON: All right. I have to ask 25 this question. Given the fact that there’s nothing in Examination - Farmer 72 1 the consent order that’s really undesirable, given the 2 fact that the methodologies that are embodied in the 3 consent order are extremely useful to you, given that 4 this is such an important and brush-fire issue, why 5 then -- and you were around in your prior incumbency as 6 Governor’s counsel -- 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 8 SENATOR ROBERTSON: -- why did it take the 9 threat of a consent order or the filing of a suit or a 10 shooting incident on the Turnpike before we really 11 moved into the development of these sort of tools? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t have an 13 answer to that question. I don’t think anyone really 14 does. I think everybody regrets it. My Department 15 has, for quite some time now, acknowledged that we 16 didn’t act fast enough. And I think it’s something 17 that we all regret. I don’t have a good answer to that 18 question. 19 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Is it fair to say, and 20 I’m asking this to you as an attorney as well as 21 Attorney General, isn’t it a fair statement to think 22 that when you’re in an environment, legal environment, 23 which concentrates on statistics, that you are well 24 advised to use the absolute best statistics and the 25 most -- well, that you’re well advised to use the best

Examination - Farmer 73 1 statistics available to you at any given time? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes, I would say 3 so. 4 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Do you have any knowledge 5 or can think of any reason why when the existence of 6 some statistics was known to people in the hierarchy of 7 your Department, not when you were there but in the 8 previous administration, why those statistics would 9 have been -- were not marshaled or would have been 10 ignored? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 12 SENATOR ROBERTSON: When you developed your 13 methodologies, because one of the things that I’m 14 concerned about is the same thing that Senator Kosco 15 made reference to, which is the degree to which the 16 state troopers are brought into this process. In 17 speaking to troopers myself, they express a great deal 18 of frustration, as law enforcement personnel would, at 19 being given mixed messages. Not really being sure what 20 they’re supposed to do. Worried about the next 21 Appellate Division decision that comes out and are they 22 going to make a mistake the next day that’s going to 23 cost us an arrest or create problems for them. During 24 the development of these methodologies, have you 25 conducted any line focus groups or anything of that Examination - Farmer 74 1 sort that involved on-the-road troopers and their 2 representatives? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: There’s a -- the 4 SOP’s were actually developed by -- well, largely by 5 troopers, yes. That was not something that was -- one 6 of the issues that we negotiated with the Justice 7 Department about it was -- was exactly that. They had 8 -- they had advanced a proposal, which when we ran it 9 by troopers, they said it was completely unworkable, 10 and so we said well let us draft an SOP and see if you 11 can live with that. And that’s what we did. In 12 consultation with the State Police, we developed the 13 SOP and Justice signed off. 14 SENATOR ROBERTSON: But apart from the 15 representatives, did you have any -- I mean you know 16 what a focus group is. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Right. Nothing 18 formal like that, no. 19 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Yeah. Because I mean one 20 of the things that you might want to do as you go along 21 you’re going to be developing these things further, and 22 further SOP’s and whatnot, you know, is ask a group to 23 come in and conduct some sort of line focus groups 24 where troopers don’t have to worry about being 25 identified or worry about what they’re saying and can

Examination - Farmer 75 1 give you some idea of what it’s like to be out on the 2 road today. I mean the representatives, obviously, are 3 very good and many of them -- some of them are out on 4 the road and some aren’t but, you know, perhaps you can 5 get a cross-section. It’s just a suggestion. 6 A question was asked a little earlier, and I 7 just want to go back to is, as to whether or not data 8 was broken down by minority versus non-minority 9 troopers. You indicated that you had not yet done 10 that. Do you have any -- 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Certainly -- we’re 12 certainly capable of doing it, but it hasn’t been a 13 focus. 14 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Okay. Well, the only 15 reason I come back to it is because one of the things 16 that struck all of us, I think, when we took a look at 17 what little statistics were available, is that there 18 wasn’t a huge difference between minority troopers and 19 non-minority troopers with respect to the -- I’m going 20 to use the suspicion rate, when it came to consent 21 searches. And I think therein lies an important 22 lesson, you see. Because I think one of the things 23 that we’re seeing as we’re trying to figure out these 24 numbers and, you know, more than one person has sat in 25 that chair and said I don’t know how to explain these Examination - Farmer 76 1 numbers because we know we’re doing everything we can. 2 I mean it’s interesting to hear you saying it now 3 because you know you’re trying everything you can. And 4 you know that people are going forward in good faith. 5 And if we asked the Monitors, they would say the same 6 sorts of things. Well, a lot of the troopers have been 7 in that position now for a number of years. They’re 8 saying I’m going out on the road and I’m trying to do 9 my job, but I know in my heart that I’m not 10 segregating, you know, people according to race in 11 terms of the way I do my job. And one of the numbers 12 that would tend to bolster that understanding is 13 whether or not there is a difference between minority 14 troopers and non-minority troopers. So I would simply 15 suggest to you that it might be a good idea to do that, 16 not because we want to be overly race conscious with 17 respect to who does what, but because therein lies an 18 important lesson as well. Because in my opinion part 19 of the problem that we have here and one of the 20 explanations for these numbers is the fact that we all 21 carry a certain race consciousness with us that will 22 have an effect on the various decisions that we make or 23 the perceptions that we have. So I would just 24 encourage that. 25 I have no other questions. Thank you,

Examination - Farmer 77 1 General. 2 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Lynch. 3 SENATOR LYNCH: General, good morning. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good morning. 5 SENATOR LYNCH: Starting with your earlier 6 testimony related to the Troop D consent searches for 7 the year 2000. The compilation, this compilation was 8 done when? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It was done in the 10 last couple of months. The stop numbers came in early 11 January. And then I at that point ordered this 12 management inquiry to take place. 13 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you ever do this in the 14 year 2000 for 1999? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: Wasn’t there some kind of a 17 commitment made to the public, the press and maybe to 18 us back in 1999 that you were going to make periodic 19 portrayals of stop-and-search data? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, we had 21 released stop-and-search data, but we hadn’t done the 22 kind of analysis that’s reflected in these charts. We 23 did release data last year, but not with this level of 24 analysis attached to it. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: From what I’ve heard here Examination - Farmer 78 1 today and what we’ve heard before, there’s no reason 2 why the same kind of analysis couldn’t have been done 3 back in ‘95 or ‘96 or ‘97 or ‘98 or ‘99? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Actually there is. 5 SENATOR LYNCH: What’s that? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Because when you go 7 back to ‘95, ‘96, the written reports it required 8 really you would not have been able to tell whether the 9 officer’s actions were grounded in probable cause or 10 reasonable suspicion. 11 SENATOR LYNCH: The consent-to-search forms 12 are very detailed. As a matter of fact, they haven’t 13 even changed. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No, the reports 15 that I’m talking about, you really -- 16 SENATOR LYNCH: I’m talking about regarding 17 consent to search. There’s nothing in this report that 18 you gave here today involving consent to search that 19 couldn’t have been retrieved and put together the same 20 way back in ‘95, ‘96, ‘97, ‘98, ‘99. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It would have taken 22 -- it would have taken more effort than it does now. 23 SENATOR LYNCH: Because of your new systems? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: But we’ve seen from Sergeant

Examination - Farmer 79 1 Gilbert that that effort didn’t take a long time in 2 putting these together, did it? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know how 4 long it took him to do it. 5 SENATOR LYNCH: So the answer to the question 6 is, it could have been done in ‘99. It could have been 7 done in ‘98. It could have been done in ‘97. It could 8 have been done in ‘96. It could have been done in ‘95, 9 correct? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It could have been 11 done, yes. 12 SENATOR LYNCH: Yeah. There’s a -- I don’t 13 know, I’ve been out of law school too long and maybe 14 out of the practice too long, but there’s a principle 15 in the law about risk utility. It seems to me the 16 consent to searches falls into the category of weighing 17 this on a risk utility basis and I think you alluded to 18 something similar to that earlier. And the risk here 19 is trampling on people’s rights. And the utility is 20 what are you getting out of it. And forgetting the 21 fact that you have all this compilation of stops and 22 searches and so forth and so on, in the consent to 23 search category, what are you retrieving in terms of 24 contraband out of these consent to searches and have 25 you -- do you have any analysis of that? Examination - Farmer 80 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yeah. I don’t have 2 it with me, but I can provide it to you. The general 3 answer is, is very little. 4 SENATOR LYNCH: So we have a risk of 5 trampling on people’s rights with Latinos at 95 6 percent. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Ninety-five 8 percent, yes. 9 SENATOR LYNCH: Blacks at -- 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Eighty-seven 11 percent. 12 SENATOR LYNCH: -- 87 percent. And whites 13 at? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Seventy-five 15 percent. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: And we’re getting little out 17 of it. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 19 The problem with that -- 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Why do we still have consent 21 to search if, in fact, people’s rights are getting 22 trampled on and we’re getting little out of it? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think the answer 24 to that, Senator, is you don’t always get little out of 25 it. I alluded to the case, the federal case from a few

Examination - Farmer 81 1 years ago where a potential terrorist was stopped on 2 his way to New York City and via consent search they 3 discovered the explosives in his trunk. If you -- 4 SENATOR LYNCH: A potential terrorist signed 5 a -- voluntarily signed a consent to search form? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe so, yes. 7 SENATOR LYNCH: And that isolated case 8 rationalizes for you that the risks involved outweigh 9 the -- the utility here outweighs the risk? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think you have to 11 do it right. I think it would be a mistake to take 12 that tool away from law enforcement and obviously we 13 haven’t been doing it right. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: There’s another reason why 15 this is accomplished, is it not, and that is the 16 forfeitures that occur out of this process? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s one of the 18 -- one of the byproducts of interdiction has been 19 forfeitures. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: So that anyone who has signed 21 a consent to search form and would have a positive 22 finding, their vehicle and its contents and what’s on 23 them in terms of cash, jewelry, et cetera is 24 confiscated? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Potentially subject Examination - Farmer 82 1 to forfeiture, that’s correct. 2 SENATOR LYNCH: And if they’re found guilty 3 or if they sign -- if they plead guilty even to a 4 lesser offense, then in most cases it is forfeited. 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s true. I 6 should tell you that the forfeiture numbers have 7 dropped, have, in fact, plummeted in the last few years 8 because the number of consent searches has declined. 9 SENATOR LYNCH: But the point is, one of the 10 things that was driving consent to search was the fact 11 that the State Police, through the policy set by the 12 Attorney General, were budgeting based upon forfeiture 13 funds. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know that 15 to be true. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: And that that number reached 17 as high as $8 million, correct? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’ve heard that 19 number. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: And have you also heard that 21 the -- and you know there’s a reporting requirement to 22 the Legislature every six months on the use of these 23 forfeiture funds, et cetera -- 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: -- and did you also hear that

Examination - Farmer 83 1 in terms of that reporting requirement, that at one 2 point in time the Office of Attorney General was having 3 the Superintendent of State Police sign those reporting 4 forms and somewhere around 1985 -- 1996 or ‘97, someone 5 on Williams’ staff figured out that the reporting 6 wasn’t accurate and they refused to sign those forms 7 and the Attorney General’s Office took back the 8 reporting? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I had not heard 10 that. 11 SENATOR LYNCH: And who was responsible in 12 your office for that reporting? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Who in my office 14 today? It’s put together by my administrative staff. 15 SENATOR LYNCH: Mr. O’Reilly? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Tom O’Reilly is the 17 head of that, yes. 18 SENATOR LYNCH: And he was the head of that 19 back in 1985 as well? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know if he 21 went back that far. He may have been the administrator 22 of CJ back in 1985. 23 SENATOR LYNCH: And Herb Clark works for him? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know Herb. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: You don’t know. Examination - Farmer 84 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 2 SENATOR LYNCH: He’s in a report we referred 3 to yesterday. My understanding is he was the financial 4 officer of the State Police, retired. Went over to the 5 Attorney General’s Office. 6 You’re not familiar with the fact that there 7 may have been misreporting to the Legislature on the 8 use of those forfeiture funds? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No, I’m not. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: Have you ever looked at any 11 of those reports? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I have perused the 13 reports, yes. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Have you seen in the reports 15 or in any documents surrounding forfeitures, that they 16 give projections of what they expect to receive by way 17 of forfeiture for the following several years? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t recall 19 seeing that. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Is that based upon what’s 21 contained in the vault in Trenton where you keep cash 22 and jewelry and cell phones and cameras and all that 23 stuff? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Do you have an inventory of

Examination - Farmer 85 1 that? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 3 SENATOR LYNCH: The point is, it appears as 4 if there was at least a point in time a bounty system 5 structured. You’ve got to go chase these funds to 6 support your budge and, therefore, you have -- one of 7 the byproducts of that is you have an enormous number 8 of searches with little utility and trampling on 9 people’s rights, yielding a few million dollars a year 10 to subsidize a budget. Someone looking from afar could 11 make that assessment, couldn’t they? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know if 13 it’s -- I don’t know if it’s accurate to make that 14 assessment. I mean you could certainly say that the 15 aggressive interdiction program did generate forfeiture 16 revenue. 17 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you ever consider that? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 19 SENATOR LYNCH: Is it possible for your 20 office to put together an analysis and compilation of 21 the amount and value of contraband from consent to 22 searches versus probable cause searches? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We can do that. 24 SENATOR LYNCH: On a year-to-year basis? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We can do that. Examination - Farmer 86 1 SENATOR LYNCH: I think that would be 2 helpful, and again going back to the risk utility 3 analogy. You were nominated by Governor Whitman, then 4 Governor Whitman, on the same day that -- to be 5 Attorney General, on the same day that Peter Verniero 6 was nominated to be a Justice of the Supreme Court. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 8 SENATOR LYNCH: And that was February 23rd or 9 something? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Something like 11 that. 12 SENATOR LYNCH: At that time, what was your 13 job? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I was chief counsel 15 for the Governor. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: And how long had you been 17 chief counsel? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Since the prior 19 January; January ‘98. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: And prior to that you were? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I was deputy chief 22 counsel. 23 SENATOR LYNCH: For how long? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: A year and a half. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Staring when?

Examination - Farmer 87 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Starting when Harry 2 Durman became Chief of Staff and Mike Torpe (sic) went 3 over to chief counsel, I became his deputy. 4 SENATOR LYNCH: So that would have been in 5 ‘96? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think so. 7 SENATOR LYNCH: And prior to that where were 8 you? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Assistant counsel. 10 Prior to that I was in the U.S. Attorney’s Office. 11 Prior to that I was in private practice. And prior to 12 that I law clerked. Just to complete the resume’. 13 SENATOR LYNCH: After you were nominated on 14 or about February 23, 1999 to be the Attorney General, 15 did you embark on a transition period? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes, I did. 17 SENATOR LYNCH: And when did that begin? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s difficult to 19 say. The -- 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, when did you begin 21 spending time each week at the Attorney General’s 22 Office? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’d say almost 24 immediately. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: And where were you physically Examination - Farmer 88 1 located when you would go to the Attorney General’s 2 Office every week for a day or two or parts of a day -- 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Different offices. 4 SENATOR LYNCH: But what did that consist of 5 in say the early part of March 1999? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t recall the 7 early part of March per se, but I was meeting with 8 different people in the Department to try to get a 9 sense of the scope of my responsibilities. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: When did you first learn of 11 the Department of Justice inquiry, or investigation or 12 whatever you want to call it? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe it was in 14 the days leading up to the law enforcement summit, 15 which was late -- late ‘98. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: And how did you -- 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The law enforcement 18 summit, I believe, in December of ‘98 and I believe 19 around that time I learned about the -- there was some 20 kind of ongoing relationship with the Justice 21 Department. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: How did you learn that? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t remember 24 whether Peter Verniero told me or whether David Hespe 25 told me.

Examination - Farmer 89 1 SENATOR LYNCH: And when you started visiting 2 the Attorney General’s Office as part of this 3 transition in the late part of February of 1999 or 4 early March of ‘99, did you make inquiry about the 5 status of that Department of Justice inquiry or 6 investigation? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not specifically, 8 no. 9 SENATOR LYNCH: When was the first time you 10 did? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I guess the first 12 conversation I had with respect to that was with Paul 13 Zoubek sometime in April. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Do you recall that 15 conversation? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. At the time 17 it was communicated to us that there was going to be a 18 report completed with respect to racial profiling and 19 in the context of that conversation the Justice 20 Department inquiry was mentioned. 21 SENATOR LYNCH: Did Mr. Zoubek tell you how 22 information had been retrieved and forwarded to the 23 Department of Justice? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: When did you first learn Examination - Farmer 90 1 about that procedure, for lack of a better term? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Subsequent to -- 3 well, that’s not true. I was going to say subsequent 4 to my becoming AG, but I believe I had learned 5 something about that procedure after the interim report 6 was out. 7 SENATOR LYNCH: Was the procedure that you 8 learned about that we’ve heard this enormous amount of 9 testimony about troubling to you when you learned about 10 it? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Troubling in what 12 way? I guess I -- 13 SENATOR LYNCH: Troubling with regard to the 14 lack of accountability and oversight? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, it struck me 16 as an extremely informal process, both from our end and 17 from the Justice Department’s end. 18 SENATOR LYNCH: Let’s just take it from our 19 end, however, for the moment, since there are other 20 obligations that flow from this information that was 21 being retrieved, particularly with regard to discovery 22 in the pending criminal and civil actions. Was that 23 troubling to you? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I guess I thought 25 it was unusual, yes.

Examination - Farmer 91 1 SENATOR LYNCH: Three words come to mind here 2 in terms of the roles of the Attorney General and the 3 Attorney General’s Office relative to the State Police 4 and they are leadership and accountability and 5 oversight. With all of the hue and cry surrounding the 6 activities and events of the -- from February through 7 June of 1999, with a lot of finger-pointing as to who 8 knew what, when and why, and with indications that 9 people in your office were blaming the State Police for 10 not forwarding information, and with clear indications 11 now that people in your office were saying that Rover 12 didn’t do what he was supposed to do, didn’t you 13 believe that it was incumbent upon you when you were 14 sworn in as Attorney General in early June of 1999 to 15 get to the bottom of who knew what and when? Who was 16 accountable? How do we fix this problem? How could it 17 have ever occurred? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I guess the answer 19 to that is yes and no. I mean yes in the sense that I 20 knew we had to move forward. I knew that we -- that we 21 couldn’t stay with the same structure we had in the 22 past. And that’s why the Office of State Police 23 Affairs became so prominent in my thinking, but -- 24 SENATOR LYNCH: How do you ever move forward 25 without finding out how you got to where you’re at? Examination - Farmer 92 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I thought the 2 interim report and the final report that we did was a 3 good -- was a good jumping-off point. As I 4 testified -- 5 SENATOR LYNCH: Does the interim report or 6 the final report lay responsibility on who failed to 7 communicate information to the Attorney General’s 8 Office? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No, they do not. 10 No, they don’t. 11 SENATOR LYNCH: Does it make a determination 12 as to whether it was the hierarchy in the State Police 13 that failed in its charge to communicate this 14 information? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not really, no. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: Does the interim report say 17 anything about the failed structure of the Attorney 18 General’s Office with regard to the retrieval and 19 forwarding of information to the Department of Justice? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The interim report 21 does not. The final report though in its discussion of 22 the Office of State Police Affairs, I don’t know how 23 explicit it was in criticizing the entire structure, 24 but by implication. You’re filling something that 25 wasn’t there before.

Examination - Farmer 93 1 SENATOR LYNCH: I’m talking about the 2 structure inside the Attorney General’s Office where 3 you have a guy by the name of Rover who’s at ABC and 4 then in -- and then gets promoted to Gaming Enforcement 5 in January of ‘99. Is reporting to now Judge Waugh for 6 some period of time. And then if you want to believe 7 what’s in the record, was reporting to no one for the 8 next 16 months. Didn’t you find that in need of 9 accounting for how it got to that point and how do we 10 make sure in the future nothing like that can happen 11 again? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think we knew 13 that that -- I think we knew that that structure hadn’t 14 worked and that’s why we created the Office of State 15 Police Affairs so that could not happen again. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: Hadn’t worked by whose 17 standards? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, based on what 19 occurred. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Don’t you think it was 21 important to the public and to your charge of 22 responsibility to determine how those things occurred? 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. I think it was 24 important for the public that they be fixed. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: How can you fix something if Examination - Farmer 94 1 you don’t know how it occurred? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: You can fix it if 3 you know it hasn’t worked and you can think of 4 something that will. And that’s what we did. 5 SENATOR LYNCH: You don’t think it was 6 important for accountability sake and credibility sake 7 that a determination be made as to whether the State 8 Police failed to communicate information that they were 9 charged with the responsibility of retrieving and 10 sending along? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t quite 12 understand the question. Do I think it was 13 important -- 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, there’s two clear 15 issues here. One is the Rover structure and the other 16 one is this business that somehow Superintendent 17 Williams and the hierarchy at the State Police didn’t 18 do what they were told, namely to communicate all of 19 this data to the Office of the Attorney General. 20 Clearly that’s still hanging out there, correct? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t think so. 22 I mean I -- 23 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, do you have the answer? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think the answer 25 is what we’ve done. The answer is what we’ve done to

Examination - Farmer 95 1 move forward. And we’ve replaced structures that 2 hadn’t worked with structures that are working and, you 3 know, I don’t think it’s appropriate in an issue of 4 this complexity, and I don’t think it’s helpful for my 5 Department, frankly, to -- an atmosphere where State 6 Police and the Attorney General’s Office continue to 7 point fingers at one another. One of the things that I 8 tried to do -- 9 SENATOR LYNCH: How do you ever get 10 accountability if you can’t determine how it came about 11 that there was a lack of accountability and a lack of 12 oversight? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think we’ve 14 acknowledged that there was a lack of accountability 15 and oversight and I think we’ve acknowledged that. 16 And, you know, the information that did come over was 17 acted upon too late. We’ve acknowledged that. I don’t 18 know what more we can do or should do in the way of 19 going back and laying blame when I think the important 20 thing is to marshal our resources so that we can move 21 forward. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you ever see the Lion 23 King? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The movie or the 25 play? Examination - Farmer 96 1 SENATOR LYNCH: Either one. 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 3 SENATOR LYNCH: Where the line comes in, you 4 know, “Sometimes the past hurts, but you have to deal 5 with it before you can move forward”? Do you think 6 that’s applicable here? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think that’s what 8 we’re doing. 9 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you deal with the past? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, as I said in 11 my testimony, I tried to repeatedly in the sense of 12 bringing the Department together. Listening to 13 people’s views. Listening to people at State Police 14 who told me that, you know, that the way that the 15 interim report came out made them look bad. I listened 16 to our people with their frustration with the State 17 Police. And I tried repeatedly to address it. I mean 18 at the retirement banquet last fall, I basically said 19 look, you know, I acknowledge that my office bears 20 responsibility for what happened. I said that -- 21 SENATOR LYNCH: That’s a nice general term, 22 but -- 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: -- seven months 24 ago. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: That’s a nice general term

Examination - Farmer 97 1 and I don’t mean to interrupt you, but I just want to 2 talk about some of the things that actually occurred 3 that point to whether or not, you know, we’re accepting 4 responsibility without getting to the facts. And it 5 appears to me that in the context of what occurred in 6 those early months in 1999 and the finger-pointing that 7 went on and the need, the crying need to get answers, 8 that all we got was a bunch of people wound up getting 9 jobs and promotions. And that in many of those cases 10 you are involved in those machinations. Whether it’s 11 the Blaker appointment as the Assistant -- the Acting 12 Prosecutor in Cape May after he can’t get through the 13 bar review. Whether it’s another one that went to the 14 ABC or Roberson’s brother as the Assistant Commissioner 15 of Transportation or -- 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t -- 17 SENATOR LYNCH: -- or Brennan becomes a Major 18 and my understanding is that maybe that wasn’t through 19 the recommendation of the Superintendent but through 20 yours, is that correct? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not true. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: That Fedorko winds up going 23 to the Casino Control Commission amid some discussions 24 that brought yourself to come testify to this Committee 25 about the fact that an Internal Affairs probe was Examination - Farmer 98 1 completed. That Hespe winds up becoming the 2 Commissioner of Education. That Waugh becomes a Judge. 3 That Dunlop is offered a significant job. And by the 4 way, did you offer him a significant job? 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I would have, but I 6 didn’t. Let me explain that. 7 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you discuss it with him? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We had lunch after 9 his retirement and the reason was I was not able to 10 make his retirement dinner. I asked him what he was 11 going to do after retirement. Bob Dunlop is considered 12 to be one of the best investigators in the State Police 13 and has been for years. He informed me that he was 14 planning to move to Idaho. And I said well, if you 15 change your mind and decide to stay, you know, we 16 should talk. I have absolutely no compunction about 17 offering someone of his caliber a job. Many of the 18 retired State Police work for my department in other 19 divisions and -- 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Is that a good thing? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think it’s a 22 great thing. 23 SENATOR LYNCH: I mean where you have 24 oversight responsibility and you have eight to ten 25 people --

Examination - Farmer 99 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think it 2 promotes -- 3 SENATOR LYNCH: -- in administrative 4 positions. Maybe 12 to 15 in investigative positions. 5 Do you think that’s a good thing? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I do. I think they 7 have developed invaluable expertise as members of the 8 State Police and we would be foolish as a Department 9 not to take advantage of that. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: And then, of course, we have 11 George Rover who was promoted a couple months before 12 you got there. 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you ever look at that? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: As to how and why? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 18 SENATOR LYNCH: Senator O’Connor, I believe, 19 asked you questions surrounding the recruitment 20 practices and I know that you’ve been trying to broaden 21 the scope of attracting candidates and there’s a class 22 graduating today. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 24 SENATOR LYNCH: Are you satisfied with the 25 composition of that class; racially, ethnically? Examination - Farmer 100 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think we need to 2 do better. I don’t recall the precise percentages, but 3 it’s not -- it does not meet the targets that we set in 4 the consent decree with the NAACP and I think the -- 5 it’s a difficult issue. I mean police departments all 6 over the country are having trouble in this regard and 7 we’re no exception. I think actually we’re doing 8 better than other -- than other police departments. 9 But there’s no question that we need to do more. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: There was a great deal of 11 controversy surrounding the 118th class in the Academy, 12 correct? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe so, yes. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: That’s one where you had to 15 come in here and clear the record with regard to -- 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 17 SENATOR LYNCH: -- candidates who were 18 admitted at the 11th hour and where Colonel Fedorko was 19 invoked as maybe having something to do with getting 20 them admitted at the 11th hour. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. I believe I 22 wrote the Committee a letter. I didn’t testify, I 23 wrote the Committee a letter summarizing the findings, 24 yes. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Were there findings or was

Examination - Farmer 101 1 the fact that he retired did that end the Internal 2 Affairs investigation? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe my letter 4 summarized what the findings were with respect to his 5 activity. 6 SENATOR LYNCH: I want to show you a document 7 regarding a grievance that we received anonymously, but 8 it seems to be -- it seems to be a clear copy of what’s 9 in your office and the Office of State Police. It’s 10 involving a grievance filed by Sergeant Robert Cipola 11 involving the 118th class. Are you familiar with that? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’ve heard -- I’ve 13 heard his name, but I don’t know the specifics. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Coincidentally, he was 15 originally from New Brunswick, as a matter of fact, but 16 I have not talked to him nor has anyone on my staff 17 associated with this and we came by this anonymously. 18 But it appears to be credible as being a copy of what’s 19 contained in the Attorney General’s records and State 20 Police records. 21 Can we have this marked and a copy given to 22 the Attorney General and to the members? 23 MS. GLADING: SJC-14. 24 SENATOR LYNCH: And you know what? While 25 maybe some of the members have a chance to peruse this, Examination - Farmer 102 1 can I ask you some questions about finalizing on the 2 consent to search and search issues generally? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Sure. 4 SENATOR LYNCH: There’s a clear distinction 5 in the law between the New Jersey Supreme Court 6 interpretation of the New Jersey Constitution as it 7 relates to the standard of probable cause for search 8 and seizure, correct? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: From the federal Supreme 11 Court determination of the standard of probable cause 12 in the U.S. Constitution. 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: And therefore, when it comes 15 to search and seizure in New Jersey, we follow the 16 higher standard which is the New Jersey Supreme Court 17 interpretation of the New Jersey Constitution. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: They’ve been very 19 -- they have over time freely interpreted the State 20 Constitution -- 21 SENATOR LYNCH: Right. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: -- more liberally, 23 yes. 24 SENATOR LYNCH: But as a practical matter, 25 isn’t that distinction sometimes at the heart of our

Examination - Farmer 103 1 problem here in terms of why a consent to search is 2 employed? In other words, we have a higher -- 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I think -- 4 SENATOR LYNCH: -- we have a higher probable 5 cause standard in New Jersey which resulted in a lot 6 more cases getting thrown out early on which ultimately 7 led to the, as I would characterize it, the over- 8 utilization of consent to search? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That may be. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: If we had the same standard 11 on the federal -- as we have on the federal side, do 12 you see any need to continue a consent to search 13 program in New Jersey? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, consent to 15 search I think is what you do when you don’t have -- 16 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, consent to search is 17 founded in something called reasonable suspicion which 18 is -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, not -- 20 consent to search actually in most states is founded on 21 nothing. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: I’m talking about New Jersey. 23 I don’t care what they do in Iowa. I care about what 24 we’re doing here in New Jersey. We can do something 25 about it. We can’t do anything about what’s going on Examination - Farmer 104 1 on border states in Texas and California where they 2 have a lot of interdiction and maybe a lot of people’s 3 rights getting trampled on. But we can do something 4 about it in New Jersey. So armed with that, do you 5 think that if we had a more reasonable standard of 6 probable cause for law enforcement, that we would be 7 able to abandon this ruse of a consent to search? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t think so. 9 I think in most jurisdictions that do have, which 10 you’re referring to, frequently they ask for consent to 11 search even when there is probable cause as kind of a 12 insurance. Because you’re never quite sure what the 13 courts are going to say and if you have consent, it 14 basically gets you over that issue. 15 SENATOR LYNCH: But it seems to me somewhat 16 illusory to believe that someone carrying a large 17 amount of contraband is ever going to sign a consent 18 form voluntarily and -- 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It does happen. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Huh? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It does happen. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: It happens in one fashion or 23 another. If they had to sign a -- if they first had to 24 sign a form that said if you don’t consent, we’re not 25 going to search because we don’t have probable cause,

Examination - Farmer 105 1 it wouldn’t happen, would it? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 3 SENATOR LYNCH: Of course you know. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I prosecuted a 5 couple consent cases off the Turnpike when I was in the 6 U.S. Attorney’s Office and they were signed consent 7 forms. So... 8 SENATOR LYNCH: I’m not saying that they 9 weren’t signed, I’m saying under what guise they were 10 signed. If someone had a Miranda type warning saying 11 hey, look, we don’t have probable cause, but we want to 12 search but we want you to sign this form that says you 13 know we don’t have probable cause and we can’t search 14 your vehicle if you don’t sign this form, do you think 15 people would sign a consent to search? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, the officers 17 are supposed to advise them that they have the right 18 not to consent to search. 19 SENATOR LYNCH: No, if you -- I framed it 20 differently. If they were advised that we don’t have 21 probable cause and we therefore can’t search your 22 vehicle unless you sign this form, do you think you’d 23 have anybody signing the form? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think there’s 25 Supreme Court case law to the effect that they don’t Examination - Farmer 106 1 have to it that way. 2 SENATOR LYNCH: I’m not talking about the 3 Supreme Court, I’m talking about us right here. What 4 makes sense. How do we get rid of this problem where 5 people’s rights are getting trampled on to huge numbers 6 percentage-wise with very little coming back the other 7 way in terms of utility. Do you think under those 8 circumstances that it would make sense to properly 9 advise the motorists? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Oh, they should be 11 properly advised, yes. 12 SENATOR LYNCH: That namely that if you don’t 13 sign this document, we can’t search your vehicle 14 because we don’t have probable cause? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: With the exception 16 of that last clause. I think that is -- 17 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, why would you not have 18 the last clause, because that would be the truth, 19 wouldn’t it? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes, it would. In 21 some cases. Some cases they have probable cause and 22 that’s -- 23 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, if they have probable 24 cause, they don’t need his consent to search. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not technically

Examination - Farmer 107 1 they don’t. 2 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, not in any way they 3 don’t. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well -- 5 SENATOR LYNCH: They’d have to go to court 6 and sustain it. 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: The problem is that 8 -- that yes, you may believe you have probable cause 9 and find out ultimately that you don’t. And that’s why 10 frequently, even when they have probable cause, they 11 seek to get consent because then they don’t have to 12 deal with that issue in court. 13 SENATOR LYNCH: I suggest to you the 14 definition of consent in this terminology is much 15 different than the definition of consent in Webster’s 16 Dictionary. 17 Getting back go the -- what I believe -- has 18 it been marked? 19 MS. GLADING: Yes. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: The Cipola grievance. 21 MS. GLADING: SJC-14. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: SJC-14. 23 On Page 4, running page, it’s not numbered, 24 Sergeant Cipola writes to Colonel Dunlop in October of 25 1999 asking for the ability to talk to the press about Examination - Farmer 108 1 this incident or his problems, is that correct? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It appears to be, 3 yes. 4 SENATOR LYNCH: And on Page 3, which is an 5 October 6th, 1999 response from Lieutenant Colonel 6 Dunlop, he’s told that that’s not -- that he can’t 7 unless he can separate out the Internal Affairs issues 8 and keep them confidential. 9 Well, regardless of how you characterize it, 10 getting back to the fourth page, which is the October 11 4th, ‘99 -- 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t think I’ve 13 got that fourth page. I’ve got the letter -- 14 SENATOR LYNCH: It purports to be a -- it’s 15 dated at the bottom left corner, October 4, 1999. It’s 16 from Sergeant R. Cipola and it’s to Lieutenant Colonel 17 R. Dunlop. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I go from -- my 19 Page 4 is Dunlop’s letter to him. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Well, they probably put it in 21 chronological so maybe it’s your Page 3 then. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Okay. 23 SENATOR LYNCH: Do you have that document? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Starting at Paragraph 2 it

Examination - Farmer 109 1 says, “I’m also dismayed by the October 2nd, 1999 Star 2 Ledger article in which the Attorney General’s Office 3 said they only became aware of allegations on September 4 24, 1999 which was after Lieutenant Colonel Fedorko’s 5 background check was completed. Either the New Jersey 6 State Police failed to forward my EEO complaint which I 7 filed in early July 1999, or member of the Attorney 8 General’s Office are not completely telling the truth.” 9 Either of these circumstances, if true, would depict an 10 attempt at a coverup. Have you seen this before? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 12 SENATOR LYNCH: Have you heard this 13 allegation before? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 15 SENATOR LYNCH: The next paragraph says, 16 “Also disturbing is the fact that the State Police and 17 the Attorney General’s Office are withholding 18 information on the circumstances behind the admission 19 of the two psychological rejects into the Academy. For 20 instance, when we left work at 5:00 p.m. on the Friday 21 before the Academy training for the 118th class 22 commenced, 176 recruits were scheduled to begin 23 training on Sunday. However, when we returned to work 24 on Monday, we learned that 178 recruits were now in the 25 training process. Certainly this information is Examination - Farmer 110 1 significant, newsworthy and sheds new light on the 2 admission of the two psychological rejects.” Are you 3 familiar with that? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I remember that 5 this is the issue that arose in Colonel Fedorko’s 6 nomination process. 7 SENATOR LYNCH: And the next paragraph says, 8 “At the time I filed the EEO complaint, I did not know 9 whether Lieutenant Colonel Fedorko had any involvement 10 in the incident and did not know that Lieutenant 11 Colonel Fedorko would receive a nomination to the 12 Casino Control Commission. I did know that something 13 did not seem quite right and subsequently requested an 14 investigation.” You didn’t know about that until 15 today? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure what 17 you mean. The -- 18 SENATOR LYNCH: The allegations here by 19 Cipola. 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I did become 21 familiar with this allegation in the context of his 22 nomination, yes. Because I think this may have been 23 what prompted us to go back and inquire as to what his 24 role was. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Now, going forward to the

Examination - Farmer 111 1 report or memo from Sergeant Cipola dated November 8th, 2 1999. It says, “While reading the November 6, 1999 3 edition of the Star Ledger, I became distressed upon 4 learning that the New Jersey State Police and the 5 Attorney General’s Office conspired to cover up the 6 sordid details relating to the 118th State Police class 7 selection process. Apparently both organizations felt 8 that saving the Governor further embarrassment was more 9 important that reporting the truth about the selection 10 process, including the abuses of the written test, the 11 background investigation and the oral boards. As a 12 result, the Attorney General’s Office provided half 13 truths designed to give former Lieutenant Colonel 14 Michael Fedorko a free ride through the Casino Control 15 Commission nomination hearing. This decision to 16 withhold damaging information was obviously designed to 17 mislead the public. Any claim by either organization 18 that the omission of information was acceptable because 19 of plan changes to the selection process, would ring 20 hollow.” Have you ever seen that document? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 22 SENATOR LYNCH: Did you ever hear of these 23 allegations before? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 25 SENATOR LYNCH: Now, on the following page, Examination - Farmer 112 1 he seems to get into the heart of these allegations 2 about the testing, which is a memo of November 15th, 3 1999 from Cipola. Paragraph 2. “Investigations of the 4 above areas, namely the law enforcement candidate 5 record, the psychological examination and the oral 6 interview board. The investigation of the above areas, 7 however, are clearly necessary. For example, 8 approximately 90 applicants received perfect scores on 9 the law enforcement candidate record, LECR. This 10 number of perfect scores is excessive and should have 11 raised a red flag. Frank Irwin of RBH, which is the 12 company that designed the LECR, stated that no more 13 than one or two applicants should receive scores of 100 14 each time the LECR is administered. The high number of 15 applicants who received perfect scores of 100 on the 16 118th class LECR suggests that many of them might have 17 lied on the biographical portion of the LECR to receive 18 those perfect scores. Frank Irwin also stated that the 19 Division was instructed to conduct background 20 investigations focusing on the biographical portion to 21 counter any attempts at lying. Frank Irwin told me 22 that he made this point clear to high-ranking Division 23 members. However, the Division did not carry out these 24 investigations. Thus, the organization refused to 25 verify the biographical information supplied by the

Examination - Farmer 113 1 candidate, although the organization had approximately 2 80 background investigators readily available. 3 Moreover, the Division was aware that certain training 4 schools were advising pupils to list erroneous 5 biographical information on the LECR to improve scores. 6 Thus, the Division spent thousands of taxpayer dollars 7 to administer a test instrument improperly to enable 8 relatives and friends of Division members to continue 9 in the selection process at the expense of more 10 deserving candidates, including minorities.” Are you 11 familiar with that allegation? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Actually I am 13 because we have since moved away from the LECR. We 14 abandoned that test last year in the course of our 15 negotiations with the NAACP. 16 SENATOR LYNCH: And that’s when you went to 17 some form of a blind screening? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: And we went to a 19 new form of test. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Again, however, as in the 21 case of the Rover, Waugh, Hespe, Verniero structure, as 22 well as the finger-pointing about who didn’t forward 23 documents, did anyone do anything about this allegation 24 to determine whether or not it was true? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. Examination - Farmer 114 1 SENATOR LYNCH: Do you know whether or not 2 the complaint that was filed by Sergeant Cipola has 3 ever been heard anywhere? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure. 5 SENATOR LYNCH: But the Internal Affairs 6 investigation about Fedorko ended by September, October 7 of 1999? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t remember 9 the exact time frame. 10 SENATOR LYNCH: Again, can we ask you to look 11 into this and give us a report as to whether or not 12 this was investigated? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 14 SENATOR LYNCH: Whether the facts -- whether 15 the allegations contained herein are true? And if so, 16 what punishment will be meted out to those who were 17 involved? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I will look into it 19 and provide you a report. 20 SENATOR LYNCH: Thank you, General. 21 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Cafiero 22 SENATOR CAFIERO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 23 General, welcome, my friend. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Thank you. 25 SENATOR CAFIERO: Something you said earlier

Examination - Farmer 115 1 to questions coming from this side of the table and 2 again repeated to Senator Lynch aroused my curiosity 3 when you were describing and defining what these 4 consent searches were. And the thought occurred to me 5 you said there are some sister states I take that have 6 no basis, whether it’s probable cause or reasonable 7 suspicion. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 9 SENATOR CAFIERO: Because they mean what they 10 say, they’re consent searches. Have you had any 11 experience as to what the -- it seems to me it’s like a 12 self-fulfilling prophecy for us to have reasonable 13 suspicion in ours and it gives the occasion and the 14 opportunity, I guess, for the trooper that makes the 15 stop either to eliminate it, not fill it out or to make 16 a wrong statement. What has the experience been of our 17 sister states who don’t ask anything, just simply ask 18 for the consent search, period, with no reasonable 19 suspicion? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: You know, I don’t 21 know the answer to that question, but I can -- I 22 believe there is some discussion of it in the Justice 23 Department’s report on police community contacts and I 24 will look at that and I’ll get back to you. 25 SENATOR CAFIERO: I wonder if they generated Examination - Farmer 116 1 the same racial profiling issue that plagued us? And 2 as I said, I think ours, having to state a reasonable 3 suspicion, may be, as I said, a self-fulfilling 4 prophecy in giving us the problems we’ve had. And I 5 just wondered as an alternative how much sense it would 6 make if we took some random, not that we want to ask 7 everybody that gets stopped, but if we randomly 8 selected those who we would ask for a consent search, 9 if every fifth stop, regardless of color or Asian or 10 black or what, were given the request for the consent 11 search, that would eliminate any risk for possibilities 12 for that stop and that request being initiated because 13 of the race or the ethnic background of that person who 14 was stopped. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, I think -- if 16 you look at how the reasonable suspicion requirement 17 started in New Jersey, it was really a response back in 18 1990 to the first early wave of complaints about racial 19 profiling. And what the thought was and remains is 20 that if you give the police a higher threshold, you’re 21 going to deter abuse of conduct because they will be 22 less likely to just randomly pull people over and ask 23 them to consent. So I think the theory behind it was 24 exactly the opposite of what you’re suggesting, but I 25 will look into what the experience in other state is.

Examination - Farmer 117 1 SENATOR CAFIERO: Well, another question. 2 What would be wrong with randomly selecting those that 3 you request a consent from? There would be no basis at 4 all to say every fifth one that we stop, it doesn’t 5 make any difference, we’re stopping the fifth one. If 6 it happens to be five blacks in a row or five Asians in 7 a row or five whites in a row, that element would be 8 removed completely, I would think, General. For what 9 it’s worth, my friend. 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Okay. 11 SENATOR CAFIERO: Thank you, sir. 12 SENATOR FURNARI: Thank you. 13 Good afternoon, General. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good afternoon. 15 SENATOR FURNARI: I’ve got a few things to 16 say, bear with me, leading up to my question. 17 You know that we’ve heard a lot of testimony 18 about a lot of different things. At least one of the 19 members of this Committee has concluded that this 20 tribunal was at one point misled by someone trying to 21 put a favorable spin on previous conduct that might 22 have not been favorable if looked on in its appropriate 23 way. We’ve also heard about confusion in the Attorney 24 General’s Office where the former Attorney General 25 testified that he had directed everyone to cooperate Examination - Farmer 118 1 fully with the Department of Justice, and yet one of 2 the persons responsible for giving over the documents, 3 the Assistant Deputy Attorney General clearly heard a 4 direction that told him not to fully cooperate and to 5 slow the process down and crawl. And we’ve heard in 6 the State Police -- and, quite frankly, the State 7 Police have come across, at least, and might be pretty 8 good on this, they seemed to have immediately jumped at 9 issues when questions were raised. They did 10 investigations. They produced documents. From 11 everything that we’ve seen, they turned over documents, 12 whether they were favorable or not favorable. I wish 13 that many of the attorneys, as an attorney, I wish they 14 had seemed as candid and forthright. 15 I have a question though that relates to some 16 of the additional testimony and I’d like to hear your 17 comments on it after I go through it. 18 Mr. Zoubek was testifying -- was questioned 19 about indictments dealing with Hogan and Kenna on 20 falsification. And what we know from the testimony 21 that’s here before is that an investigation had been 22 completed in December, or at least in early January. 23 That that matter had not been presented to a Grand Jury 24 yet, although there was a Grand Jury empaneled to hear 25 charges arising out of the shooting incident. That it

Examination - Farmer 119 1 wasn’t the intention of anyone who was handling those 2 matters to move forward with any indictment. That when 3 the Attorney General learned in March that it was going 4 to take a number of more months to move the shooting 5 indictments before the Grand Jury, that he addressed 6 the falsification issue. And that he made a decision 7 that he wanted to move the indictment at this time 8 because the anniversary of the shooting was coming up 9 and there was a substantial focus, pressure and 10 criticism on the length of time that the shooting 11 investigation was taking. There was absolutely no 12 other legal reason that the falsification indictment 13 was to be moved at this time instead of being moved 14 with the shooting indictment. 15 Now, I raise that as a question about whether 16 that was a reasonable and viable consideration in 17 moving the indictment and Mr. Zoubek said absolutely. 18 My question was, is criticism for failing to do a 19 timely investigation, is that an appropriate 20 consideration for an Attorney General to move an 21 indictment and he indicated to me yes, that was true. 22 And that he had been vindicated in that decision. So 23 did the Justice indicate they had been vindicated in 24 that decision by an Appellate Division decision issued 25 by Judge Baime, Wallace and Carchman. Judge Baime and Examination - Farmer 120 1 Judge Carchman are former prosecutors, very precise 2 with their words. So I just had an opportunity to look 3 at that case today and I’m going to read you a section 4 of this case and it says, “The decision to conduct two 5 separate Grand Jury proceedings was designed to prevent 6 the Grand Jury investigating the shootings from 7 considering charges that were not germane to the 8 factual issues presented. While there was no legal 9 requirement that the State conduct separate Grand Jury 10 proceedings, bifurcation was intended to insulate each 11 panel to the extent possible.” Now, Deputy Attorney 12 General Richard Berg was with your office and I believe 13 this was during the period of time that you were the 14 Attorney General that this case was on. 15 Now, it seems to me that what the genesis of 16 that indictment was described to us in full as to why 17 that happened and yet for some reason the Court 18 suffered under the impression that there was a design 19 here to benefit the defendants in bringing this charge. 20 Now, those seem to be kind of inconsistent to me. 21 Could you address how, you know, is this one of those 22 lack of communications between the Director of Criminal 23 Justice and the attorney arguing before the Court? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t see it as 25 that at all. I think the Appellate Division opinion is

Examination - Farmer 121 1 sound. You know, I can’t speak to circumstances that 2 existed in the Office at that time, but we did 3 prosecute the appeal because we thought that the trial 4 Court’s decision was in error and we were vindicated on 5 appeal and the Supreme Court denied certification. 6 SENATOR FURNARI: But did anyone know that 7 the reason that that indictment was brought -- the 8 reason, yeah, the genesis of the indictment took place 9 in the rooms where life -- where criminal lawyers were 10 sitting around telling the Attorney General that this 11 is not a good idea. Our intention is -- there’s a lot 12 of problems, you have Brook-Murphy problems. You know, 13 we might have to bifurcate this case. I mean that 14 clearly isn’t a decision that was by design to prevent 15 one Grand Jury from considering charges not germane to 16 the other factual issues. That was a decision to move 17 an indictment because the Office was receiving 18 criticism for not properly -- or not investigating and 19 moving forward on a shooting indictment. Those two 20 things are -- 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think what the 22 Appellate Division -- I think you’re taking that 23 somewhat out of context. I think the Appellate 24 Division opinion in its entirely basically just affirms 25 the broad discretion of the Attorney General to make Examination - Farmer 122 1 those kinds of decisions. And so that the part that 2 you’re reading is a bit out of context. 3 SENATOR FURNARI: Do you think -- I mean if 4 you know, did they know -- did they know what we know 5 today how the decision process was made? Somewhere was 6 that presented? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 8 SENATOR FURNARI: See, the only thing that 9 concerns me is we go through with reforms and we sit 10 here as many of us being lawyers and we’re looking at 11 an issue of racial profiling that, you know, I agree 12 may have happened because of these problems in 13 relationship with the police and what we asked them to 14 do. But I’m also afraid that we’re not addressing 15 concerns all the way up to ourselves. As lawyers 16 sometimes we end up as advocates and don’t address the 17 issue. So do you think that there’s some changes? Do 18 you think that there is a way that -- or anything that 19 needs to be done? Again, not focused at the State 20 Police but focused on what the Attorney General’s 21 Office did. What lawyers did. What people that are 22 trusted with the responsibility of telling the layman, 23 you know, where the law is. Are there changes that we 24 need to make here? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t think so.

Examination - Farmer 123 1 No. I think anytime you’re dealing with a bureaucracy 2 you have to be ever vigilant of the issue of 3 communication and that’s just -- that’s something that, 4 you know, you pay a lot of attention to. 5 SENATOR FURNARI: Well, we heard an awful lot 6 of testimony from government lawyers who said that they 7 had a difficult time with this -- even described as 8 schizophrenic role of representing both the State 9 Police and representing -- and prosecuting and 10 recognizing the responsibility to Justice. Is there an 11 additional training program that we should have for 12 anyone coming into the Attorney General’s Office? I 13 mean, quite frankly, in my view something that all, you 14 know, lawyers learn in law school right off the bat and 15 they forget it by the time they get to the Attorney 16 General’s Office? Is there some additional training 17 that we need to do in that area? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, one of the 19 ways I’ve attempted, I think, to address that issue is 20 I did start Advocacy Institute within the Department, 21 one of whose functions is the training of lawyers, both 22 to represent the State of New Jersey and also to act 23 within the Department. So that is an issue that I’ve 24 actively addressed. 25 SENATOR FURNARI: Thank you. Examination - Farmer 124 1 SENATOR GORMLEY: I’ll ask a question. 2 In terms of recruitment of counsel, have 3 there been any changes in terms of attracting counsel 4 to the Office? Is there any assistance you would need 5 -- I mean we’re talking about -- you know, through 6 these hearings we’ve engaged in the complexity of some 7 of these matters and what you want is both the 8 citizens, troopers and the State to be able to have the 9 very best counsel available. Are there any needs in 10 terms of additional counsel, in terms of additional 11 wherewithal, that would assist the Office because that 12 person who is the trial counsel has an enormous weight 13 on their shoulders and I’d be curious if, in fact, you 14 have any thoughts in that area? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, we’ve thought 16 for some time that the pay scale in the Department is 17 out of whack with respect to the private sector. I 18 know when I -- when I got finished clerking the 19 Attorney General’s Office, it was one of the places 20 that I considered going and I ended up going to Riker, 21 Danzig. But at the time the difference in starting 22 salary was, if my recollection is correct, about ten to 23 $13,000. Now, you have private firms which it’s not 24 unusual for people to start at around $100,000 a year 25 and -- Jeff is --

Examination - Farmer 125 1 SENATOR GORMLEY: He’s got all the numbers 2 memorized. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: And our lawyers 4 start at 42. 5 One of the other problems that we’ve had over 6 the years is defining a career path within the 7 Department. Sort of the senior associate level lawyer 8 is a lawyer that over the years we have tended to lose, 9 so we’ve been working to try to design a career path 10 for our attorneys. So, you know, I think our attorneys 11 should start at a higher level and there should be a 12 defined career path for them. 13 SENATOR GORMLEY: Mr. Chertoff? 14 MR. CHERTOFF: I guess good afternoon, 15 General. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good afternoon. 17 MR. CHERTOFF: I just have literally three or 18 four questions. 19 Going back to your presentation at the 20 beginning. As I understood the lesson that you drew 21 from the statistics with respect to 2000, it is that 22 even from the standpoint of law enforcement issues and 23 what’s efficient, it turns out that the practice of 24 profiling is bad law enforcement because it winds up 25 focusing on people who actually are less likely to Examination - Farmer 126 1 result in found contraband. 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. As 3 Senator Lynch points out, if you weigh -- if you weigh 4 what you gain in terms of law enforcement in the finds 5 that you make against the humiliation that the people 6 feel whose cars are searched and nothing is found, it’s 7 pretty clear that there’s an imbalance on the side of 8 not doing it this way. 9 MR. CHERTOFF: But also you’re letting 10 proportionately more people go by that are more likely 11 to have contraband if you’re going to use this as a way 12 of detecting drugs. I don’t know, did you watch 13 Colonel Williams’ testimony or -- 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I read it. 15 MR. CHERTOFF: There was a point in the 16 testimony when he said something which was a little 17 ambiguous but which being charitable we’ll say it was 18 ambiguous, but it seemed to suggest that he believed 19 that the justification for some amount of profiling is 20 that fact that there’s a lot of narcotics moving up the 21 Turnpike and he seemed to correlate that in some way 22 with ethnic factors. Would you agree with me that the 23 statistics that you’ve put out today absolutely totally 24 destroys that concept? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes.

Examination - Farmer 127 1 MR. CHERTOFF: And do you think that it would 2 be helpful, one of the things that would be helpful in 3 terms of getting the troopers to understand that 4 profiling is bad law enforcement is the fact that 5 you’ve now been able to actually demonstrate that it’s 6 bad law enforcement? So that it’s no longer the 7 troopers feeling that you have a bunch of do-gooders 8 handcuffing them and doing their jobs, but they come to 9 realize that actually profiling is bad in terms of 10 doing their jobs? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think that’s the 12 message that we have to get to rank and file because I 13 think that’s the attitude that we have to change more 14 than any other. 15 MR. CHERTOFF: And my last question is this. 16 I mean obviously the video cameras were not around back 17 in the mid-nineties and the late nineties, but the 18 sources of information that you used to pull together 19 these statistics was basically the files and the 20 documents generated on consents to search, right? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 22 MR. CHERTOFF: So that would have been 23 material which was available if someone had pulled it 24 together back in ‘96 or ‘97 or ‘98? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: It could have been Examination - Farmer 128 1 done. It would have take more work. Yeah. 2 MR. CHERTOFF: I have nothing further. 3 SENATOR GORMLEY: Thank you, General. 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Thank you. 5 MS. GLADING: Senator? 6 SENATOR GORMLEY: Oh, I’m sorry. I 7 apologize. I’m sorry. I apologize. I didn’t realize. 8 MS. GLADING: Good afternoon, General. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Good afternoon. 10 MS. GLADING: The statistical information 11 that you outlined earlier, was any of that produced as 12 a result of the CAD system? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe so, yes. 14 MS. GLADING: Is Troop D computerized on the 15 CAD system now? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe Troop D 17 is on the CAD system. 18 MS. GLADING: Okay. The consent decree that 19 the State entered into in December of 1999 requires -- 20 requires semi-annual public reporting of stops and 21 consent search data, is that correct? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 23 MS. GLADING: Has the State complied with 24 that requirement of the consent decree? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe so, yes.

Examination - Farmer 129 1 MS. GLADING: When did you report consent 2 search data previous to today? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t recall, but 4 I believe we had. 5 MS. GLADING: I looked through your second 6 semi-annual pubic report of aggregate data, which was 7 provided -- which was made public on the 10th of 8 January 2001. Would consent search data have been 9 included in this? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. I 11 don’t know if it was or not. 12 MS. GLADING: So if it wasn’t in this, was it 13 reported separately from this? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t remember. 15 It might not have been. I don’t know. 16 MS. GLADING: Okay. Perhaps your office can 17 provide the Committee with previous reports of consent 18 search data because we’re a little confused about 19 what’s been reported previously. 20 The MAP system, the Management Awareness and 21 Personnel system, is that functionally going to perform 22 the function of the early warning system that was 23 discussed in the interim report? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 25 MS. GLADING: When will that be up and Examination - Farmer 130 1 running? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We’re beginning to 3 -- we’re beginning to implement it starting in April 4 and we’re hoping to have it completely operational by 5 September. 6 MS. GLADING: Be functional April where? 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. I’ll 8 get you that information too. 9 MS. GLADING: And fully operational, do you 10 mean all of Troop D or the entire State Police force? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think all of 12 Troop D, but I’ll check that for you. 13 MS. GLADING: And as you just said, the early 14 warning system was called for in the April 1999 report 15 and it was required, I guess, under the consent decree. 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 17 MS. GLADING: When did work begin on the MAP 18 system? Did the State begin work on it in April or May 19 of ‘99 or did it wait until after the consent decree? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I think we waited 21 until after the consent decree because we weren’t quite 22 sure what the architecture we would need would be. 23 MS. GLADING: And the CAD system, does that 24 include a records management system? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe it does

Examination - Farmer 131 1 but I’m not sure. 2 MS. GLADING: Is that records management 3 system operable at this point? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure. 5 MS. GLADING: I noticed that there was non- 6 compliance with consent decree in January in the 7 Monitor’s second report in areas involving the CAD 8 system, call-ins of stops, call-ins of the end of 9 stops. And the reasons were that the data file that 10 the Monitor received was incompatible with the 11 Monitor’s computer, I guess. And another reason was a 12 misinterpretation of a Monitor’s request that had been 13 made. Do you know if that problem has been addressed 14 and if the Monitors have been provided with compatible 15 data at this point? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure but I 17 do know that the Monitor was in the first week of March 18 and I did meet with them to give an -- interview. They 19 didn’t raise this as a continuing concern at that time. 20 MS. GLADING: They did raise it? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: They did not. And 22 I believe their next report is going to be out next 23 week sometime so we will know.’ 24 MS. GLADING: Okay. Do you know -- well, 25 you’ve been looking, I guess, at videotapes of stops. Examination - Farmer 132 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 2 MS. GLADING: And I guess there was a fairly 3 significant level of non-compliance in terms of the 4 audio recording of the videotapes. Are many of the 5 tapes that you’re looking at silent movies? 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Most of the tapes 7 I’ve looked at actually the sound is quite good but 8 there are tapes that have problems. 9 MS. GLADING: Do you know if compliance has 10 improved with that requirement, that there be audio and 11 video? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe that it 13 has. Sometimes the problems have been mechanical and 14 sometimes we’re not sure whether it’s mechanical or 15 whether someone is turning the microphone off. But 16 we’re looking into that. 17 MS. GLADING: The Monitor’s report raised a 18 number or concerns about compliance with item number 19 87, which was the attempt to complete internal 20 investigations within 45 days. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 22 MS. GLADING: And it noted that for nearly 23 nine months in 1999 the former Superintendent failed to 24 finalize any pending discipline within the New Jersey 25 State Police. Many of those cases obviously had been

Examination - Farmer 133 1 initiated in 1998. Do you know the status of the 2 backlog of those cases at this point? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe we’ve 4 made great progress in eliminating the backlog. I know 5 Carson Dunbar has focused a great deal of attention to 6 the backlog that existed in Internal Affairs and I’m 7 not sure that he’s totally eliminated it. But I know 8 he remarked to me early on that he had some cases that 9 were three and four years old and that took him quite a 10 bit of time to get to it. 11 MS. GLADING: While a case is pending, an 12 individual cannot be promoted, is that correct? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 14 MS. GLADING: Do you now know how many cases 15 reach that level of being more than a year old? 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 17 MS. GLADING: Do you -- we’ve heard some 18 testimony -- the Committee has heard some testimony 19 that the cases, administrative and discipline cases 20 resulting out of the Troop D audit that activity was 21 increased recently on those cases to try to get them 22 resolved. Are you monitoring the progress of those 23 cases? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Personally? 25 MS. GLADING: Um-hmm. Examination - Farmer 134 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. The Office of 2 State Police Affairs is overseeing that process, I 3 believe. 4 MS. GLADING: Do you have concerns that those 5 cases are still outstanding -- 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 7 MS. GLADING: -- nearly two years after the 8 audit was ceased? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 10 MS. GLADING: Do you have concerns that some 11 of those cases may rise to the level of -- at least one 12 case, perhaps more, may rise to the level of 13 seriousness that was alleged in the Hogan and Kenna 14 records falsification indictment? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I have been told 16 that no cases rise to that level. But if one did, I 17 would have concerns. 18 MS. GLADING: Do you have concerns that none 19 of the troopers that were audited were actually audited 20 at the level that Hogan and Kenna were audited, where 21 every stop was examined, so we can’t really know what 22 the level of wrongdoing or records falsification was by 23 troopers in Troop D during that period of time because 24 they were never completely audited? Is that a concern? 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Well, my

Examination - Farmer 135 1 understanding is that the -- what I was told was that 2 the ten cases where some serious deficiencies were 3 identified were forwarded for further investigation. 4 That the remainder of the violations were 5 administrative in nature and relatively minor. 6 MS. GLADING: Do you know why then the ten 7 cases have never been prosecuted through the Internal 8 Affairs process? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe that 10 there has been -- there has been admittedly some time 11 lag here but the ten cases went to Criminal Justice for 12 review and then they were declined and sent back to the 13 State Police and subsequent to that they were referred 14 to the Office of State Police Affairs and -- 15 MS. GLADING: So they were -- let me back up 16 a second. They were sent from State Police to Criminal 17 Justice. When was that? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know 19 exactly. 20 MS. GLADING: They were sent back to State 21 Police? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 23 MS. GLADING: When was that? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know 25 exactly. Examination - Farmer 136 1 MS. GLADING: Okay. And then they were sent 2 back to the Office of the Attorney General, Office of 3 State Police Affairs? 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: State Police 5 Affairs, yes, for their input on the potential 6 discipline. 7 MS. GLADING: And when was that? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I believe that was 9 about a year ago. 10 MS. GLADING: And then they were sent back to 11 State Police again? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. Office of 13 State Police Affairs reviewed them and made their 14 comments and they’ve been returned to the Colonel. 15 MS. GLADING: And they were determined again 16 not to rise to a level of criminal culpability? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: That’s correct. 18 MS. GLADING: And they were sent back to 19 State Police? Do you know when that was? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 21 MS. GLADING: So essentially nearly two years 22 passed. The shutdown of the Troop D audit. Ten cases 23 were identified as being possibly warranting criminal 24 action and not a single trooper has been disciplined or 25 been subject to a complete Internal Affairs

Examination - Farmer 137 1 investigation, is that right? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know if ten 3 is an accurate number. Hogan and Kenna might have been 4 two of them. I’m not sure. 5 MS. GLADING: Are you familiar with the 6 changes being made to the formal promotional process 7 within the State Police? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Yes. 9 MS. GLADING: What rank -- up to what rank 10 will that promotional process apply? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I’m not sure that 12 we finalized that yet. 13 MS. GLADING: It’s not in place then yet? 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 15 MS. GLADING: Do you know if the stop data 16 that you’ve talked with the Committee, do you know if 17 that includes construction detail stop data? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 19 MS. GLADING: You’ve done a pretty extensive 20 traffic survey that shows varying levels of minority 21 ridership and different times of the day and different 22 days of the week. Have you compared the stop and the 23 consent search data? Have you done an analysis that 24 compares it to -- 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Of the time of day? Examination - Farmer 138 1 MS. GLADING: -- the survey that you’ve done? 2 The actual benchmarks you have. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We haven’t gotten 4 to that level yet, but we’re planning to. I assume 5 you’re talking about finding out when the consent 6 searches happened. What time of day and then comparing 7 it with our population survey? Yeah, we haven’t gotten 8 to that level of detail yet. 9 MS. GLADING: You said it more artfully than 10 I did. 11 I understand that the State has just entered 12 into a contract with a testing company that can provide 13 testing, psychological testing for racial bias, is that 14 correct? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: I don’t know. 16 MS. GLADING: Do you have a projection at 17 this point of how much the State anticipates it will be 18 spending in settling civil claims or criminal claims -- 19 or civil claims in connection with racial profiling 20 allegations? 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 22 MS. GLADING: Do you know how many cases or 23 files there are outstanding at this point? 24 (Pause) 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We have two class

Examination - Farmer 139 1 actions and then a few other cases. Apparently under 2 five. 3 MS. GLADING: Have the classes been certified 4 in any of those class actions? 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Class certification 6 was denied at the state level in one. There’s a motion 7 in the federal court which has not been decided. 8 MS. GLADING: Okay. And the State is 9 opposing class certification? 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: We have been, yes. 11 MS. GLADING: Can you explain why you’re 12 opposing class certification? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Oh, because we 14 think it’s a very difficult thing to prove. We’d 15 basically be taking at face value people’s assertions 16 that this conduct occurred and I don’t think that’s 17 appropriate. 18 MS. GLADING: And do you -- have any cases 19 been settled in the last 60 days? 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Since the -- well, 21 we settled the Tobia (sic) case at the end of the year 22 and we settled the 7A case -- I don’t know if that was 23 60 days ago or not. 24 MS. GLADING: There’s been no other 25 settlements other than those two in the past three or Opening Statement - Dunbar 140 1 four months? 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not that I’m aware 3 of. 4 MS. GLADING: Okay. The 15-year old boy who 5 was the subject of the frisk search by Governor Whitman 6 down in Camden, is that an open filed in your office at 7 this point? 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 9 MS. GLADING: Has there been any notice of 10 tort claim? 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not that I’m aware 12 of. 13 MS. GLADING: Do you now of any pending civil 14 action in that case? 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: No. 16 MS. GLADING: I won’t call it a case then. 17 Have there been any negotiations? 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Not that I’m aware 19 of. 20 MS. GLADING: That’s all I have. Thank you, 21 Mr. Chairman. 22 SENATOR GORMLEY: I’ll thank you again. 23 Thank you again for your testimony, Mr. General. 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL FARMER: Thank you. 25 SENATOR GORMLEY: We’ll take a half hour

Opening Statement - Dunbar 141 1 break. 2 (Off the record) 3 SENATOR GORMLEY: Colonel, I’d ask you to 4 come forward to be sworn, please. Raise your right 5 hand, please. 6 C A R S O N D U N B A R, SWORN 7 SENATOR GORMLEY: Be seated. 8 Colonel, we’d appreciate your comments at 9 this time. 10 Make sure the red light is on. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: Let me begin today by 12 stating that I am glad that you have undertaken these 13 hearings. I strongly supported Attorney General Farmer 14 in his decision to release documents concerning the 15 State Police. I have watched the State Police die a 16 death of thousands of small cuts. My sincere hope is 17 that with these hearings we can begin the road back to 18 normalcy. 19 I will try to answer your questions to the 20 best of my ability. I am sure that I have not moved 21 the State Police far enough and you will have questions 22 about this. Yet at the same time I say with great 23 pride, we have moved considerably in all that we do. 24 As I sit here today and look at this Committee, I ask 25 which of you, which of us, have not had a prejudicial Opening Statement - Dunbar 142 1 thought or action. Is the issue that we are here to 2 discuss an issue of the State Police or an issue of our 3 society? I make no excuses for the State Police, yet 4 are we alone? Why is it that whenever I attend a 5 police leadership seminar that we discuss the very 6 topic that has brought this Committee together? Why is 7 there a national discussion on profiling and 8 statistical collection? Is it all due to the New 9 Jersey State Police or is it that the issue that faces 10 this entire country an issue, a sub-issue of how we 11 review race in this country? 12 The issues I found in the State Police 13 involve much more than racial profiling. They involve 14 promotions, specialist selections, personnel actions, 15 Internal Affairs investigations and how we treat each 16 other. In order to address what we do on the outside, 17 we must also solve our problems within. 18 The documents you have reviewed reflect the 19 issues we face today are not one year old, they are not 20 two years old, they are not even three years old. They 21 are decades old. It is refreshing to see your interest 22 in this subject but my question is where was this 23 interest years ago? 24 I will tell you that there has been a 25 disconnect between the leadership of the State Police

Opening Statement - Dunbar 143 1 and the Attorney General’s Office for some time. Both 2 depend on each other, yet it is clear to me that there 3 was no bond of trust. Each eyed the other with 4 suspicion. In fact, when I was hired, there were, and 5 most likely still are today, those who believe me to be 6 the puppet of the Attorney General’s Office. I would 7 submit that anyone that really knows me, knows that I 8 am many things, but I am not a puppet of anyone. 9 What I have found interesting is that both in 10 the Attorney General’s Office and in the State Police, 11 the vast majority of the personnel are hardworking 12 individuals dedicated to public service. The years of 13 animosity are clear to see, yet during my 18 months I 14 have seen countless personnel working side-by-side to 15 overcome problems we face. What progress we have made 16 has been the result of these people working together 17 and getting to know each other. I will tell you that 18 both the Attorney General and I have had to push people 19 in an effort to build trust, but like everything else 20 we do, we accept small steps and we have moved things 21 forward. 22 The Office of State Police Affairs within the 23 Attorney General’s Office works side-by-side with us. 24 There are occasions that I strongly object to some of 25 the things that they recommend. We argue and in some Opening Statement - Dunbar 144 1 cases fight, however, in most cases we come to 2 agreement. I think this process is healthy for the 3 State of New Jersey. 4 As the Superintendent of State Police, I am 5 dependent upon a bank of attorneys within the Attorney 6 General’s Office. I find it hard to believe that 7 anyone would warrant or authorize the disbandment of 8 the Legal Affairs Office in the State Police. However, 9 this was done. Frankly, I don’t know how things were 10 done without this office. Don’t get me wrong, like 11 most people, I don’t love attorneys, yet in today’s 12 world, you just can’t survive without them. 13 Unfortunately, I must call upon them every day to 14 provide some form of counseling. How can you possibly 15 do your job in today’s world without good legal 16 counsel. 17 Let me address the very painful topic of 18 racial profiling. I certainly, and I believe that each 19 of you, would agree that racial profiling is an 20 unacceptable practice. However, what do you do when 21 someone partakes in this action unwittingly? I think 22 it is time for some real honesty. When you think of 23 someone involved in a crime, whom do you think of? 24 What flashes into your mind? The problem with what 25 flashes into your mind is that it is perception. The

Opening Statement - Dunbar 145 1 problem with perception is that it turns into reality. 2 We in law enforcement come into contact with a small 3 portion of our population. Our encounters are often 4 under difficult circumstances. We add to the 5 perceptions we bring to the job, those perceptions we 6 develop during law enforcement encounters. The 7 problem with all this is that we become tainted of what 8 we experience. This then becomes our reality. It is 9 based on a perception brought about through contact 10 with a very limited part of our society. Sadly, we end 11 up in many cases treating people based upon our 12 perceptions. And those perceptions are based on a very 13 small part of our overall public. 14 The same thing occurs with our troopers. 15 Make no mistake, the vast majority of our troopers are 16 hardworking individuals who love their job and whose 17 main goal is and has been to make a difference. These 18 troopers were enlisted in a war against drugs. Through 19 years of law enforcement they develop perceptions. 20 They acted on these perceptions for the most part in 21 good faith. The question is, were their perceptions 22 accurate? 23 While we have struggled through the last 24 three years, the Appellate Courts have made some 25 decisions that will have great impact on what we do. Opening Statement - Dunbar 146 1 Just within the last several weeks in State v. Keith 2 Leslie, the Appeals Court limited the scope of search 3 of a motor vehicle, even with consent. Based upon 4 recent decisions by the Appeals Court, I would submit 5 they do not concur with the perceptions of the police 6 officers. Further cases can be explored in State v. 7 Kardi, State v. Chapman, State v. Hampton, State v. 8 Hinton. 9 Since taking office, what I have attempted to 10 do is have us look at everything that we do. How we 11 organize our personnel policies, our training, our 12 discipline, our uniform. How we work with others to 13 include the Attorney General’s Office. In almost every 14 case I saw a need for change. 15 Furthermore, we are moving in all these areas 16 at the same time. A very difficult process. I 17 strongly believe that in order for us to really resolve 18 issues involving racial profiling, we must examine our 19 perceptions. I mean a real examination. We must 20 determine what we want and how we plan to get there. 21 We have volumes of rules and regulations. We must 22 understand what the rules are and we must be held to 23 them. I know there is consideration to pass a new 24 legislation, however, unless there is both voluntary 25 and mandatory compliance with these rules and

Opening Statement - Dunbar 147 1 regulations, as well as legislation, the value of any 2 new legislation will be limited. One need only look at 3 the civil rights laws of the 1960s. They are now 4 almost four decades old, yet we still face issues of 5 non-compliance with the rule and the spirit of these 6 laws. In the Soto case, one of the issues cited by the 7 Judge was the fact that a large portion of motor 8 vehicle stops were missing. The failure to call in 9 stops have a long history. It was part of how things 10 were done for a long time and even upon my arrival, it 11 was something that was very problematic. Yet without 12 accurate information regarding stops, statistical data 13 is all questionable. 14 It was issues such as failure to call in 15 stops and non-compliance with Division policy that led 16 me to my emphasis on discipline. All their timeliness 17 of discipline is still a major concern. Our Internal 18 Affairs investigations I believe to be of excellent 19 quality, an issue that the federal Monitor has 20 commented upon and we’ll comment upon in the very near 21 future. 22 I have also increased most of the discipline 23 as of March 1, 2000. I firmly believe that we in the 24 law enforcement must be held to a higher standard. I 25 have an expectation that all my personnel must be Opening Statement - Dunbar 148 1 counted upon to do their job the right way every day. 2 I have commented several times now that I 3 believe that the vast majority of the members of the 4 New Jersey State Police to be hardworking, very 5 dedicated personnel, yet I will also tell you there is 6 a very small, very small, very vocal cell of 7 individuals that believe there is no need for change. 8 This small group will do whatever is possible to 9 eliminate disappointment and return to the past. 10 Frankly, they are bullies and enjoy being bullies. I 11 know that. I will struggle with these individuals 12 throughout my tenure. They are the ones that lie to 13 you and others. I have dealt with people like this 14 before. They do not represent true law enforcement. I 15 recognize what they are and know they have no place 16 within the State Police. They will certainly invoke 17 the term “morale” as their rallying call. Today we are 18 near a crossroad in the history of the New Jersey State 19 Police. This crossroad can lead to a future that will 20 have difficulties, however, it is the road that will 21 never have us travel the path we have traveled during 22 the last three years. It is the road where we examine 23 our perceptions as individuals and determine what 24 reality really is. 25 The second road is a road that leads to the

Opening Statement - Dunbar 149 1 past. I know that in examining documents, you know 2 that the State Police in the early 1990s came to the 3 same crossroad. Today’s Committee reflects where the 4 road taken has brought us. You will play a part in 5 deciding what road we take in the future. 6 When I appeared before this Committee during 7 my confirmation hearing, I told you then that I had no 8 magic wand. I told you that the change ahead would 9 take about four years. I also told you that I did not 10 know the problems that I would encounter. Today I can 11 tell you that the problems are much more than the 12 racial profiling. And yes, it will still take the four 13 years that I predicted. 14 One of my proudest days was graduating from 15 the New Jersey State Police Academy. In some ways it 16 was one of the major achievements in my life. I 17 understand the pride that the men and women of this 18 organization have. It is my pride in them that forces 19 me to speak out against those within our organization 20 that must either change or leave. Everything I do is 21 with their well being in mind. Like a parent watching 22 over a child, you must do the right thing for the long 23 term. There are those that believe that the way to 24 making a child happy is giving them everything they 25 want. I don’t think that is the answer. I will not be Opening Statement - Dunbar 150 1 intimidated. I know things will be difficult. I have 2 met resistence and I am sure that I will continue to 3 meet resistence. I ask only that you consider the last 4 three years and determine if we should ever go through 5 such a period again. 6 You as a Committee confirmed my nomination 7 just under two years ago. I can tell you I have never 8 worked as hard as I have in the last two years. I am 9 not interested in making friends or having people love 10 me. I want the New Jersey State Police to take its 11 rightful place of leadership in the American law 12 enforcement. Where some troopers may lament the fact 13 that they are part of a kinder, gentler State Police, I 14 believe it to be the beginning of an organization that 15 dedicates itself to ideals of performing all of its 16 duties, constitutionally and with compassion. 17 Sir William McPherson, who conducted an 18 inquiry somewhat similar to this in the tragic Lawrence 19 case in London, England stated, “The collective failure 20 of an organization to provide an appropriate and a 21 professional service to the people because of their 22 color, culture, ethnic origin, can be seen or detected 23 in processes added to its behavior which amount to 24 discrimination. Through unwitting prejudice, 25 ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping,

Opening Statement - Dunbar 151 1 which disadvantages the minority ethnic people, I 2 submit what we struggle with here today, whether it be 3 wittingly or unwittingly, is an issue that not only 4 affects the New Jersey State Police, the State of New 5 Jersey, the United States, but much of our world. My 6 sincere hope is that we take this opportunity to truly 7 examine the issues and make a commitment to take the 8 road to understanding and respect in dealing with the 9 difficult law enforcement issues. For I believe that 10 only with partnerships of all our communities will we 11 overcome our law enforcement concerns and provide for 12 the safety of those we strive to serve. 13 It is my hope that after you review, you will 14 see that this has been a long-term issue that is 15 extremely complex that has developed as a result of 16 both witting and unwitting intent. More importantly, 17 this is an issue that we in New Jersey can dedicate 18 ourselves to working through. I believe that New 19 Jersey deserves this as do the men and women of the New 20 Jersey State Police. 21 Finally, I can state that I have only been 22 here for 18 months and know that change was and is 23 needed. Many of you have served the state for many, 24 many years. Already I have heard some state that the 25 change is needed is my departure. I strongly disagree. Opening Statement - Dunbar 152 1 What is needed is the courage to continue change. The 2 courage not to confuse morale with the painful process 3 of bringing about change. What is needed is a 4 willingness to learn and understand that people resist 5 change. What is also needed is an examination of all 6 voices and not just those that are vocal. 7 Monsignor Sheeran, at our graduation today, 8 quoted Eric Hoffer, the workingman’s philosopher of the 9 1960s, “In times of change it is a learner who will 10 inhabit the future.” You can draw whatever conclusions 11 you desire. You can place blame wherever you wish, 12 however, in the end you fail to bring about progress if 13 you fail to allow the seeds of change to grow. Other 14 will undoubtedly sit in these chambers years from now 15 and address these very same issues. How we treat each 16 other and what kind of public servants we are is 17 important. For me, law enforcement has never been a 18 political enterprise. However, I also understand 19 political reality. In the end, I will follow the words 20 of William Shakespeare, “This above all, to thine own 21 self be true.” I know what road to take and I plan on 22 taking it. 23 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Girgenti. 24 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Thank you very much, Mr. 25 Chairman.

Examination - Dunbar 153 1 Good afternoon, Colonel. 2 COLONEL DUNBAR: Good afternoon. 3 SENATOR GIRGENTI: You said that you’ve been 4 here 19 months now? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Eighteen months. 6 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And could you tell me or 7 the Committee how the practices have changed to prevent 8 racial profiling during the period of time that you 9 have been there? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, probably the biggest 11 thing is that I’ve met with every trooper in the State 12 of New Jersey. I did that within about the first six 13 or seven months. During those sessions I spent 14 approximately four hours with every trooper. And I 15 explained to them what my expectations are. I told 16 them that whatever happened in the past, basically has 17 happened in the past, that people deserve to be treated 18 the way that you want to be treated. And as simple as 19 that is, that has been the message that I have given 20 them. And as I indicated in my opening statement, the 21 other thing that I’ve done is taken a very intense look 22 at our Internal Affairs process to reinforce what I 23 believe should happen. And people now have to make a 24 choice, they either follow our instructions, follow the 25 law, follow our rules and regulations, or they will be Examination - Dunbar 154 1 disciplined or they will be asked to leave. 2 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Presently how are you 3 training people now to do stops and consent searches? 4 Have there been more instructions? More hours of 5 training with new individuals that are coming in? What 6 is the procedure with that? 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: During the last year, if you 8 look at our -- if you look at our SOP’s in September of 9 2000, we reissued all new SOP’s regarding stops, about 10 stop reports. And the purpose of that was to again 11 reinforce what we expected of personnel and also it 12 goes along with the consent decree. The second part of 13 the meetings that we had with all the troopers in phase 14 one training was to explain to them what was going to 15 be expected of them. And that’s been reinforced with 16 phase two training. Not only the new people that are 17 going through the Academy, we’ve gone back and we’ve 18 retrained every single trooper in the State Police. 19 SENATOR GIRGENTI: So part of your curriculum 20 or course is a block and instruction in this area? I 21 mean because there was talk of that going way back to 22 Soto and they said -- 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: But, you know, let me just 24 -- Senator, the key issue really isn’t the training by 25 itself, the key issue, I think, is there’s always been

Examination - Dunbar 155 1 rules. There has always been -- I think you can go 2 back to the nineties and you can see that Colonel 3 Dintino put into place rules. An example of that is 4 that there has been a rule for a long time that you 5 called in all stops. But as I said in my opening 6 statement, when I came in there were a number of -- 7 there were a number of issues that stops weren’t called 8 in. And if you look at the Soto case, one of the major 9 criticisms was that there wasn’t any accurate 10 information. And unless we can get people to 11 understand that they have to follow the rules and, you 12 know, I would submit that one of my problems with the 13 Association, with the Troopers Association, is is that 14 starting March 1 when I said that the discipline would 15 be increased, you know, that did not make some people 16 happy. It’s a gradual progression. But the training 17 by itself just accomplishes one thing. That’s just 18 like if you pass a law, that law by itself, unless it’s 19 enforced, unless people understand that they have to 20 follow that and there is no exception to it, then, you 21 know, the law it will be on paper, but it really 22 doesn’t get anything accomplished. 23 SENATOR GIRGENTI: I understand that, but I 24 mean part of the instruction is on search and seizure 25 and so forth right? Examination - Dunbar 156 1 COLONEL DUNBAR: Search and seizure. I mean, 2 you know, you can pretty much name it. Search and 3 seizures, call-in procedures, stop reports, MVR 4 training. Another thing, you know, that I’ll throw out 5 to you, for example, when I took this job, even though 6 we had MVR’s, there were guys that when they were 7 making a motor vehicle stop, they would turn off the 8 microphones once they got back to their cars. I mean 9 that’s unacceptable. And, you know, we took some 10 disciplinary action and after that we made it known 11 that when a car is stopped, from the time the car is 12 stopped until the time that -- until the time you clear 13 that stop, you have the microphone on. And now, we’re 14 seeing a reasonable degree of compliance. I’m not 15 going to sit here and tell you that I have a hundred 16 percent compliance, but things are moving forward. 17 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. So how do you 18 -- do you measure this on a daily basis? Is somebody 19 doing this to see -- in a go-forward way, you know, the 20 issues surrounding racial profiling? Are you -- how do 21 you oversee it? 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: How do I oversee it? I mean 23 I guess my biggest responsibility is to set the tone. 24 And if -- you set the tone of what the expectations 25 are. And then, and I think this was something that was

Examination - Dunbar 157 1 missing, if people don’t live up to that tone, you take 2 action. 3 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Okay. So according to 4 your feelings, since your tenure there now, they are -- 5 everybody to your knowledge is recording race? They’re 6 doing everything in terms of what has been brought out 7 at this point in time? Are we fully computerized too, 8 because that was a big problem in the past? 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, we’re -- well, fully 10 computerized in what respect? Are we talking about 11 fully computerized as far as -- 12 SENATOR GIRGENTI: For data, for information. 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, the CAD, as of 14 February 19th, CAD, the Computer Aided Dispatch system, 15 the last element of that, the Parkway went on line. So 16 we now have the information, the basic information. 17 But the big computer project that we’re working on, the 18 MAPS program, probably won’t be implemented, I would 19 say, four, five, six months. That’s a personnel, 20 that’s part of the consent decree. But as far as 21 gathering the data, the raw data of stops and such, 22 that is now pretty much fully computerized and based on 23 my -- based on what the Monitor has reviewed, based on 24 my own daily exposure to the radio system, everybody 25 that’s making stops is complying. But as I’ve said, Examination - Dunbar 158 1 with probably 1,700 people in the field, I can’t speak 2 to every single individual. 3 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Well, what happens if they 4 don’t comply? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: They have a problem. 6 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And what would that 7 entail? 8 COLONEL DUNBAR: It depends on how bad, you 9 know, it depends on how -- what they do. For example, 10 if it’s a -- if it’s a -- if you don’t call in a stop 11 and we learn about it, you know, chances are you’re 12 going to get suspended. Now, if that was an intentful 13 thing, now there’s a whole bunch of -- there’s a whole 14 bunch of ways you can get there. We have some cases 15 where individuals don’t call in the stop the way it’s 16 supposed to be done, but there’s no intent to deceive 17 or anything like that. And we try to work with that. 18 But the thing that I’ve been trying to do for the last 19 18 months is to try to enforce that we’re going to 20 follow the rules. 21 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And then when you get this 22 data, who gets the reports? Do you get them or what do 23 you do with the data? 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: Okay. Which reports -- 25 which reports are we talking about?

Examination - Dunbar 159 1 SENATOR GIRGENTI: The information on the 2 stops and the data that’s been compiled. I’m sure 3 you’re overseeing it to make sure that it’s being 4 complied with. Where does it go from there? Do you 5 get it and then you pass it on or where does it go? 6 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, there’s all kind of 7 different data, and I’m a little bit unclear. 8 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Well, stops, search -- 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: Are you talking about 10 cumulative stops or are you talking about individual 11 stops or -- 12 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Well, I would assume 13 cumulative in the end. You know, to get background and 14 information, the data that’s a result of stops on the 15 Turnpike or Parkway, whatever. Where does that go once 16 it’s put together? Who -- 17 COLONEL DUNBAR: Senator, the big -- I guess 18 the big thing that most people want to know about is 19 the overall data collection. 20 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Right. 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: And what happens with the 22 overall data collection is that the computer -- I mean 23 it’s called into CAD, then reports are run off CAD and 24 you get an idea of what your various stations are doing 25 as far as percentages of stops, who’s being stopped, Examination - Dunbar 160 1 you know, what they’re being stopped for and so on. We 2 also have patrol charts. We also have individual 3 reviews. So the overall data is produced on a period 4 of time and then is analyzed to see if there’s anything 5 there that basically we’re uncomfortable with. And 6 then we go back and we look at individuals. We look at 7 individual patrol charts. We look at individual 8 videotapes and try to find out what’s happening, why is 9 that happening. 10 SENATOR GIRGENTI: How closely is that 11 monitored? Is it -- 12 COLONEL DUNBAR: How closely is that 13 monitored? 14 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Yes. 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: I would say it’s pretty 16 closely monitored. 17 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. Are there any 18 other ways of measuring if people are being stopped 19 inappropriately besides -- I guess through -- you said 20 there’s more supervisors on the road I heard? 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, not yet. I mean we’re 22 in the process of doing it. You know, one of the major 23 things that we’ve looked at is that I think back in 24 1998 there was something like 225 Internal Affairs 25 cases. Last year there were 584 Internal Affairs

Examination - Dunbar 161 1 cases. This year we’re on a projected rate, if we keep 2 going the way we are now, we could possibly hit as many 3 as 900 cases. The bulk of those, four-fifths of those 4 case are cases from the outside. And many, many of 5 those are cases of complaints against troopers of 6 disparate treatment, racial profiling and so on. In 7 every one of those cases, we go back and we look at the 8 videotapes, the videotapes available. We look at the 9 patrol charts. We review all of that. And what we’ve 10 found is that in the bulk of the cases, in the vast 11 majority of the cases, there is no issue. You know, 12 the information just is not accurate. But we also have 13 found some cases that are problematic and those cases 14 are being addressed. And what I believe is that as 15 people understand that if you’re doing something 16 intentionally or wittingly, that you’re going to have a 17 problem. And that information, as time goes on, people 18 are just going to understand that the standards have 19 changed. 20 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Okay. But the Attorney 21 General mentioned the fact that you were going to put 22 additional supervisors -- 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yes. That’s -- 24 SENATOR GIRGENTI: How would that work? 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: The additional road Examination - Dunbar 162 1 sergeants? 2 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Supervisors. 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yeah. We’re in the process 4 right now, and probably within the next 60 days, we 5 will have a road sergeant that will be basically 6 assigned full time to road supervision. There will be 7 one watch commander that will be in the station and 8 there will be another sergeant on the road. And that 9 individual’s responsibility will be to oversee stops. 10 If there’s a consent search to go to the scene of the 11 consent search and provide some expertise. Now, that 12 was one of the things that was recommended in the 13 Attorney General’s report and probably the only reason 14 we haven’t had the position so far is the fact that 15 we’ve been waiting for the contract to be concluded. 16 And the last of the three contracts was just signed, I 17 believe, last Monday. 18 SENATOR GIRGENTI: I spoke earlier with the 19 Attorney General and I said, you know, and I feel this 20 way despite the stain on the reputation of the New 21 Jersey State Police because of things that have 22 happened in the past, it’s important to recognize and 23 award excellent behavior, and I’m sure you agree with 24 that. You know that we had a problem in the past in 25 terms of the trooper of the year program. The

Examination - Dunbar 163 1 emphasis, perhaps was in the wrong area. It was on 2 numbers and aggressiveness. How do you, as the head of 3 this Agency, reward top performers and what criteria do 4 you use? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Let me just -- 6 SENATOR GIRGENTI: I mean a committee does 7 it, right? 8 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, let me just tell you 9 who this year’s trooper of the year was. This year’s 10 trooper of the year was an individual named Everingham 11 from the Bridgeton station. And what Trooper 12 Everingham did was he reduced the calls for assistance 13 at what I know as Seabrook Village, which has a 14 different name now, which is a low-income housing 15 project in the Cumberland County area. He reduced 16 calls for assistance from a thousand down to 500 in one 17 year. He also, in the local high school there, reduced 18 calls for assistance by 40 percent. That trooper, even 19 as young trooper myself assigned to Bridgeton, I used 20 to go to Seabrook Village all the time. It never 21 dawned on me to get to the heart of the problem. He 22 got to the heart of the problem. He resolved that 23 issue. That is why he was selected as the trooper of 24 the year. As you said, there are a lot of people in 25 the State Police that do an outstanding job and I think Examination - Dunbar 164 1 this Trooper Everingham is an example of that. And you 2 know how Trooper Everingham was found? He wasn’t found 3 through the normal way. What I dictated, I instructed 4 that every road station would submit one name of an 5 individual who they deemed to be the best trooper. In 6 addition, I also recommended that -- I also instructed 7 that our Traffic Bureau and our Patrol Support Bureau 8 submit one individual. The Patrol Support Bureau, 9 which has community policing, had Trooper Everingham. 10 That’s how his name surfaced. So there are a lot of 11 good people out there doing good things on a daily 12 basis and they’re overlooked. You know, what I’ve 13 tried to do is just look in different places and find 14 an individual like him. And let me just say something 15 else too. That in law enforcement, one of the things 16 that -- one of the things that people get involved in 17 law enforcement for is to basically to be involved in 18 arrests and do things. There’s nothing wrong doing 19 that as long as you do it the right way. And the two 20 key words that I say over and over again, and we’ve 21 made it part of our -- part of our code. In fact, I 22 have it written on a little -- on a card that’s issued 23 to every trooper, and basically it says that we will do 24 our job constitutionally and with compassion. And what 25 that means is that -- and I tell my troopers, I said

Examination - Dunbar 165 1 you have to have the courage that if you don’t have 2 probable cause and if you don’t have reasonable 3 suspicion, that you’re willing to walk away. 4 I will also submit to you, Senator, that -- 5 and I find this kind of interesting because I know 6 there will be a lot of -- there are issues about Troop 7 D, which is the Turnpike. When the arrest statistics 8 came out for Troop D some months ago, there was a very 9 critical article in one of the major media outlets 10 about the fact that arrests had dropped in Troop D from 11 I believe 1,300 right to about 350. I will not tell my 12 troopers to go out and push the envelope. I want them 13 to go out -- I would rather have three or four or 500 14 solid arrests with no questions, then have 1,300 15 arrests and be in a situation that we’re in now. Maybe 16 the arrests will get up again, but if they’re going to 17 get up there again, then I want to make sure that every 18 single arrest we do is done the correct way. 19 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right.. And prior to 20 your tenure, one of the priorities was drug 21 interdiction on the highways, the Turnpike and so 22 forth. Have you -- has the emphasis been changed, not 23 so much to on this, you know, as much of an emphasis on 24 the drug interdiction on our highways? 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: No. Examination - Dunbar 166 1 SENATOR GIRGENTI: What has happened as a 2 result of all this? 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: The emphasis hasn’t been 4 changed. What the emphasis has been on is doing the 5 job the right way. And the arrests are going to be the 6 arrests. And I would suspect that probably if the 7 arrest windowed dramatically, that then the question 8 would be why aren’t we making more arrests? But, you 9 know, my emphasis is, has been and probably will be 10 till the day that I leave, that I want people to do the 11 job the right way. And let me just, you know, I went 12 back and one of the sayings in the State Police is 13 traffic enforcement isn’t police work. Well, I went 14 back and I looked at the number of people killed in New 15 Jersey and there are three times as many people killed 16 in New Jersey by automobile accidents as there are by 17 guns -- murders. I don’t know how many by guns. I 18 think there’s been roughly between 250 and 280 murders 19 a year. We have between almost 800 vehicle deaths. 20 What I believe is that if we’re out there and we’re 21 doing the job the way it’s supposed to be done, if 22 we’re making motor vehicle stops the way they’re 23 supposed to be done, we’re going to encounter the 24 public and as we encounter the public, we’re going to 25 run across people who have stolen cars. We’re going to

Examination - Dunbar 167 1 run across people who have, you know, who were involved 2 in different criminal acts. And we’re going to make 3 the arrests. But the key is that whatever we do, we 4 have to have a sound basis for what we do. I mentioned 5 in my opening comments, there’s been five cases that I 6 know of in the last -- in the last year that have all 7 gone to the Appellate Division. All five cases 8 involved State Police personnel and each one of those 9 cases have resulted in the Appellate Division 10 overturning a Superior Court decision and basically 11 changing the law. And, for example, even with consent, 12 according to the Leslie case, we can no longer search 13 the trunk of a vehicle. That’s going to restrict what 14 we do. 15 So the emphasis isn’t on -- hasn’t been 16 changed from arrests. The inferences are now, as far 17 as I’m concerned, is on doing the job the way it should 18 be done. 19 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Just a couple more 20 questions. 21 In light of the past controversy, what are 22 you doing to keep up the morale of the State Police and 23 how is the morale presently? 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, as I said in my 25 opening statement, the term “morale” -- I’m glad you Examination - Dunbar 168 1 brought that up because I think morale is somewhat of a 2 misnomer. Look, in the last couple of years the State 3 Police has received better equipment than it’s ever had 4 in the history. The contract that was just recently 5 signed is probably one of the best contracts they’ve 6 ever had. I will support everything that the troopers 7 do that is up to what the standards that I believe that 8 we should have. If -- I don’t want to -- I’m not going 9 to be held hostage to morale, because morale, as I said 10 before, morale is something -- in fact, I’ll go back to 11 1973. There was a major article in the newspaper, 12 “State Police morale on an all-time low.” You know, 13 morale is what people want it to be. Morale is 14 something that people use. And as I said, it’s the 15 vocal -- it’s the vocal group of people who are 16 disenchanted. People who don’t want to change. The 17 question I ask is that do we bring about change or do 18 we concern ourselves strictly with morale? I mean what 19 is the more important part? And if it is, you know, if 20 it is morale, then we just let people do whatever they 21 want to do. You know, I can’t -- you know, trust me, 22 there would be nothing that would make me happier than 23 if I could be everybody’s friend and if I could say, 24 hey, everything is great. We’ve got no problems. But 25 I don’t think that’s why we’re here.

Examination - Dunbar 169 1 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. Just two more. 2 Are troopers now receiving, and I believe 3 you’ve touched on it already, a clear message on what 4 the responsibilities are and how to properly conduct 5 themselves with respect to the rights of motorists? 6 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think that -- first of 7 all, I think the bulk of the troopers always had that. 8 I think that we’ve gone back and reinforced things that 9 we want to have happen. And again, I go back to this 10 simple card, as simplistic as it is, you know, “Perform 11 your duties constitutionally and with compassion.” All 12 this really is is a reminder and I -- one of the things 13 that I get, Senator, all the time is that, you know, we 14 need to update our core values. We need to update our 15 mission statement. You know, if you look at what 16 Norman Schwarzkopf said in general order number one, 17 you don’t have to update this. I mean General 18 Schwarzkopf, when he wrote this, really had vision. 19 And that’s one of the things that -- we talk a lot 20 about tradition in the State Police and I’m not 21 changing this because I think it says everything that 22 you could possibly want. It says that “The prevention 23 of crime is more important than the punishment of 24 criminals. The force, individually and collectively, 25 should cultivate and maintain the good opinion of the Examination - Dunbar 170 1 people of the state by prompt obedience to all lawful 2 commands, by a steady and impartial line of conduct and 3 the discharge of their duties and by cleanly and sober 4 and orderly habits and by respectful bearing to all 5 classes.” We can change the terminology a little bit, 6 but this pretty much says everything. The question is, 7 are you held to it? 8 SENATOR GIRGENTI: The interim report, when 9 we first went over it and the report that came out, 10 said it was really a few “bad apples,” to use the 11 expression, or a few individuals that were the problem. 12 Do you believe that was the case or do you think it was 13 more pervasive than that? Do you think based on 14 figures we see and statistics that we’ve looked at, is 15 it beyond just a few bad apples or would you say -- how 16 would you -- 17 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, it all depends on how 18 you want to define “few bad apples.” 19 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Well, bigoted, you know, 20 different words we use. 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: Some people -- you know, 22 there is -- again, as I said in my opening statement, 23 there is a -- there is a vocal cell within the State 24 Police that don’t -- that doesn’t particularly care for 25 me. They want to continue doing the business the way

Examination - Dunbar 171 1 they were doing it. But the heart of what I said 2 before, and this is -- this is the difficult part and 3 this is the thing, people will ask questions about 4 laws, about rules, about a whole bunch of things, but 5 perception. If you perceive what you’re doing is the 6 right thing, if you believe that and you happen to not 7 be doing the right thing, does that really change what 8 you’re doing? And that’s one of the dilemmas that -- 9 if you think -- if you believe that the only thing you 10 have to do is arrest people, and if you’re willing to 11 push that envelope beyond where it should be pushed, 12 you could still in some respects be a good trooper, but 13 you’re just not going the right way. 14 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And then this -- 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: But I think your point 16 though, your point that -- and this is something else 17 that kind of saddens me and I can give you a story 18 where a trooper was telling me about his son or 19 daughter in grade school being questioned by a teacher 20 or another classmate. “Is your dad one of those 21 troopers that do all those bad things?” And that was 22 -- that’s rather unfortunate because I think that the 23 vast majority of the people in the organization are 24 good, wholesome people. And, you know, I sit here 25 today and I wouldn’t have a prayer in hell if it wasn’t Examination - Dunbar 172 1 for the fact that there are a lot of good people in the 2 State Police that believe in the same thing that I 3 believe in and that had been working -- they worked 4 before I got there and they’re working now and are 5 working towards the future of the Division. 6 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Finally, just one last 7 thing. 8 What happens now if there’s a falsification 9 of records? What is the procedure? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: It depends -- well, if your 11 falsification of records, you’re more than likely 12 you’re going to end up -- 13 SENATOR GIRGENTI: It could he ghosting. It 14 could be -- 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you’re going to end up 16 with an Internal Affairs case and then it depends on 17 what you do. And, you know, it can be anything from a 18 written warning up to termination, depending on how 19 serious that the issue is. But you have to take things 20 in perspective. You know, for example, some of them, 21 you know, I hate to admit this, but we have some people 22 that are just sloppy. We have some people that are 23 just lazy. You have some people who are very, very 24 hard workers and they do a tremendous amount of work 25 and they’re just forgetful. But then you have some

Examination - Dunbar 173 1 people that just have every intention of hiding things 2 and not complying. The last group is the one that’s 3 most important to me. The first three are people that 4 we will -- we will have to deal with because their 5 conduct also cannot be condoned. The ones that I’m 6 concerned about are the people that purposely act to 7 deceive. 8 SENATOR GIRGENTI: All right. And during 9 your tenure, how widespread is this banner? Has there 10 been a problem of what magnitude of falsification of 11 records? 12 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, I would like to say 13 that during my tenure it has not been that great. And 14 I can tell you, you know, I just recently had a -- I 15 just recently had a disciplinary proceeding in which an 16 individual received what I considered to be a pretty 17 severe penalty for a one-time occurrence because in 18 that case I think that there were questions about 19 whether that person was trying to deceive or not 20 deceive. I can also tell you that although it didn’t 21 occur in my tenure, it occurred during my tenure in the 22 sense that I reviewed the cases for Internal Affairs 23 and there have been quite a few cases. In fact, there 24 was one major case that involved almost 50 people in 25 which I took disciplinary action. Examination - Dunbar 174 1 SENATOR GIRGENTI: And what would 2 disciplinary action be -- 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: Disciplinary action could be 4 anything from a written -- it could be anything from a 5 verbal warning to a written warning to suspension. And 6 in the big case I was talking about, most of them were 7 suspensions -- were written warnings to suspensions. 8 SENATOR GIRGENTI: What does a suspension 9 entail? What is it? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: A suspension, in that 11 particular case, I think the longest term suspension 12 was five days. But we’re talking a few incidents. A 13 few incidents in about a three or four-month period of 14 time. 15 SENATOR GIRGENTI: Okay, thank you, Colonel. 16 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Zane. 17 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, for my edification, 18 can you explain to me, there essentially are five 19 separate Divisions, am I correct, A, B, C, D and E? 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: Five troopers, right. 21 SENATOR ZANE: Five troops. Are those troops 22 by location and do troopers get transferred in and out 23 of the different troops? Or if you graduate and you’re 24 assigned to D Troop, are you in that troop the rest of 25 your life? How does that work?

Examination - Dunbar 175 1 COLONEL DUNBAR: Troops A, B and C are 2 regional troops. A is South Jersey. B is North 3 Jersey. C is Central Jersey. Troop D is the Turnpike. 4 Troop E is the Parkway. No one that I know of gets 5 assigned to Troop D or Troop E right out of the 6 Academy. Generally, I believe you have to have at 7 least a minimum of one year, possibly two years before 8 yo go out what we call a toll road, Troops D and E. 9 And people are, in fact, rotated around. One of the 10 things that occurred I think just prior to my arrival 11 was that on the Turnpike, for example, there were a 12 number of people who had been on the Turnpike for an 13 extended period of time and a decision was made that 14 people would be rotated off the Turnpike, at least for 15 one year, after they do five or six years. The same 16 thing is now taking place in Troop E where we have 17 either completed or in the process of transferring 18 people that have been out there for a long period of 19 time back to a non-toll road assignment. 20 SENATOR ZANE: Is the tenure, for example, 21 once you go, let’s say, to Troop D, how long might a 22 trooper anticipate being there? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: As I understand, right now 24 that you’re not supposed to be there more than five 25 years. Examination - Dunbar 176 1 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, I don’t know whether 2 this is -- whether it’s accurate or not, but I believe 3 that for the months of January through April of 1999, 4 within the entire State Police there were 118,000 5 stops. Thirty thousand -- roughly 31,000 of those 6 stops were members of a minority. 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: What time frame are we 8 talking about? 9 SENATOR ZANE: January through April of the 10 year 2000. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: Okay. 12 SENATOR ZANE: And that works out to a 13 percentage of 25.6. Troop D, which is the Turnpike, 14 the stops during that same period of time were 27,000 15 -- rounding off, 27,900 and that which were minorities 16 was a little less than 11,000 for a total minority 17 stops of 38.3 percent. That contrasted with the other 18 troops. They had a balance of 90,382 stops. Twenty 19 thousand were minorities. 22.1 percent was therefore 20 then minority stops. The total New Jersey population, 21 according to the 1998 census at that time for purposes 22 of this, was 8.1 million. Minorities were 1.7 million. 23 The State percentage was 20.5. Now, recognizing that 24 people are traveling and they’re not necessarily the 25 same minorities that we’re talking about, but if this

Examination - Dunbar 177 1 is accurate, what this points out is that in the non- 2 Turnpike troops, the percentage of stops is consistent 3 with the population of minorities in the state, whereas 4 the Turnpike stops are nearly double. And at this 5 point, having sat through these hearings and listened 6 to the testimony and read more documents than I’d like 7 to think about, it’s clear to me that what has been 8 going on has been going on for quite some time. And it 9 seems that it’s indigenous to the Turnpike, not 10 necessarily the State Police. Are these figures that 11 I’m telling you about new? 12 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, they’re not new. 13 SENATOR ZANE: You’re familiar with these? 14 COLONEL DUNBAR: I’m familiar -- 15 SENATOR ZANE: Tell me why then, if you can. 16 And I’ll be glad to show them to you if you want. 17 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t know the answer to 18 that yet, Senator. I’ve looked at a lot of things. 19 For example, and there’s no, you know, you know as well 20 as I do that if you look at those numbers that 21 Moorestown station is even more graphic and, you know, 22 one of the things that Moorestown station has that 23 virtually no other station has is 295 running alongside 24 of it. Just last Sunday, not this past Sunday, a week 25 ago Sunday, I traveled down the Turnpike and I made a Examination - Dunbar 178 1 point of looking at license plates when I got down to 2 Exit 7. By the time I reached Exit 4, there was 3 virtually no New Jersey vehicles because the people, I 4 think, are using either 295 or using 130. The Turnpike 5 is a different road. In fact, the Turnpike is really 6 three roads. If you take a look at the Turnpike, you 7 have up to 7, which is the Moorestown patrol area. You 8 have one kind of a road. When you get to Cranbury, we 9 really start picking up commuter traffic. And if you 10 look at Cranbury itself, you’ll see that the roads 11 divide into I think it’s ten or 12 lanes at that point. 12 And then when you get up to Newark, it’s yet another 13 road. And if you look at those statistics, if you go 14 back and you examine Newark and you examine Cranbury, 15 they have different issues -- they have different 16 numbers than the Moorestown station has. 17 One of the things -- and I know this is a 18 somewhat controversial issue, one of the things that I 19 wanted to see done, and I think we’re in the process of 20 doing it, is I want to see a violator survey. 21 SENATOR ZANE: I’m sorry? 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: A violator survey. I want 23 to see who is, you know, do we -- what is it that we 24 have -- look, Senator, when I approached this, when I 25 came into this job, I didn’t have any pre-conceived

Examination - Dunbar 179 1 notions. There are things about Moorestown, the 2 Moorestown station, that I will tell you that I still 3 don’t understand. We’ve changed all the commanders. 4 We’ve changed the troopers. There’s something about 5 that station, and I don’t know whether it’s 295. I 6 don’t know whether it’s -- whether it’s the way the 7 road is designed. I don’t know whether it’s the out- 8 of-state drivers. I don’t know whether people drive 9 faster down there. But Moorestown is different than 10 almost every other station. Cranbury is somewhat akin 11 to Moorestown. We are looking at the Turnpike. I 12 think the Turnpike has made good progress. One of the 13 things that -- one of the things that I have found, and 14 this goes back to the other question that I got about a 15 few bad apples, if you -- if you take -- if you figure 16 out that -- if a trooper makes 50 arrests a year, and 17 an active trooper would have made about 50 arrests a 18 year, if a trooper made 50 arrests a year and he 19 stopped ten vehicles or conducted ten searches for 20 every arrest that he made, pretty soon you’d end up 21 with a number, if you had 50 troopers, you’d end up 22 with a number of about 25,000. You’d end up with 2,500 23 arrests, but you’d have 22,500 people who would have 24 been stopped. Who really, you know, they were just 25 average citizens not having, you know, they’re people Examination - Dunbar 180 1 who basically would have been violated. 2 You know, do I believe that there was an 3 over-emphasis on drug interdiction? Yeah, I do. Is 4 that -- one of the other things, Senator Zane, that -- 5 I’m not making excuses for troopers, but if -- and this 6 will go right back again to my issue of perception. If 7 people believe that -- if people believe that what 8 they’re doing is right, it’s very difficult to -- it’s 9 very difficult to -- for them to understand that what 10 they could be doing is yes, they’ve arrested somebody, 11 but in the long term, in the long run, they haven’t -- 12 they haven’t really followed the spirit of the law. 13 And, you know, I don’t -- and this gets to be a very 14 touchy subject because I have never been an individual 15 that’s been soft on crime. I think drugs are a scourge 16 in our society. But I learned, in fact, I learned from 17 an attorney a long time ago when I was 21 years old, 22 18 years old -- 19 SENATOR ZANE: He must have been an 20 exceptional attorney. 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: You know what? Today I know 22 who he was; then I wanted to -- I didn’t think he was 23 that exceptional. What he said was, “Don’t take it 24 personal.” And it took me ten years, ten years to 25 figure out what he was talking about. And, you know,

Examination - Dunbar 181 1 we’re teaching now in the Academy in Essex corruptions 2 of -- corruption of -- noble cause corruption. And 3 what that means is that if you don’t -- the ends -- if 4 you don’t -- how you do something is important as what 5 you accomplish. And that’s a difficult message for 6 some people to understand. And I remember when the 7 article came out about drug arrests plummeting on the 8 Turnpike, first of all, it sounds pretty hypocritical 9 of the newspaper outlet to question the drop in crime 10 after all of the negative -- the drop of arrests after 11 all the negative comments that were made about the 12 Turnpike and what they were doing. But there’s 13 something more important to me and I think there should 14 be something more important to the State Police than 15 just making arrests and that is making, you know, if 16 we’re going to make arrests, let’s make them the right 17 way. 18 You know, all of those statistics that you 19 have, and this is one of the things that I really worry 20 about, is we have gotten so hung up in stats. I mean 21 I’ve got -- I have stats coming every single day. I 22 mean -- in fact, one of the things that I got very 23 angry about was -- I guess I’m not supposed to get 24 angry, but I do, but one of the things I got very angry 25 about was is that the State Police decided at some Examination - Dunbar 182 1 point that they were going to track white Hispanics 2 because what they were afraid of was that if somebody 3 was stopped and they had an Hispanic surname but they 4 appeared Caucasian, that there be a question made that 5 they were trying to falsify their documents. That they 6 were trying to alter something. So they created the 7 category of white Hispanics. Now, if we’re talking 8 about profiling, just profiling by itself, if you stop 9 an individual that appears to be a Caucasian, I find it 10 very difficult that that number will be included in the 11 numbers for minority stops. But not through any 12 surprise of mine, it’s been included every single time. 13 And that’s okay too, because we’ll learn to -- we’ll 14 learn to adjust to that. But that’s the type of 15 problems that stats bring up. 16 You know, and I’ll say something else to you. 17 That I’ve looked at the national statistics and the -- 18 part of the Department of Justice has published or is 19 in the process of publishing a report talking about 20 searches and talking about stops and the interesting 21 thing is is that the numbers are somewhat akin -- this 22 is based on 1.3 million searches that were conducted 23 throughout the country where they got voluntary 24 information from. According to that number, the 25 Moorestown numbers are right in the average and the

Examination - Dunbar 183 1 rest of the state is doing a heck of a lot better. 2 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, coming back to these 3 numbers. Don’t they -- what percentage of your 4 troopers are in Troop D versus what percentage are in 5 the other troops? 6 COLONEL DUNBAR: Troop D has got somewhere 7 between 210 and 220 -- 8 SENATOR ZANE: And the total population of 9 the State Police is what? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you would want -- you 11 would want the total A, B, C. I think A’s got between 12 350 and four. B’s got about the same. And D -- E and 13 D are about the same. And then C is the smallest 14 troop, it’s got about 250 people. 15 SENATOR ZANE: And again, you indicated that 16 you are familiar with the statistics that I mentioned. 17 Doesn’t it really say to you and shouldn’t it say to 18 Attorneys Generals that the problem is on the Turnpike, 19 period? It’s not with the rest of the State Police? 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t agree with that. 21 SENATOR ZANE: Isn’t that what the numbers 22 sort of bear out? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, no. See, this is why I 24 don’t agree with that. And this is a question that I 25 asked every one of the troopers when I met with them. Examination - Dunbar 184 1 If we have one person in a troop profiling, one person 2 profiling, is that acceptable? I don’t think it is. 3 SENATOR ZANE: Yeah, but would you agree that 4 you don’t have to go out and address the issue of 5 profiling in A, B and C, you have to address it with 6 Troop D? 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: I disagree with that. 8 SENATOR ZANE: You do? 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: I disagree with that, and 10 then go back to the same answer that I just gave you a 11 minute ago. That my position is that as law 12 enforcement officers we have an absolute responsibility 13 and as a Superintendent, I will never sit here and tell 14 you that -- if I had one person in the entire State 15 Police profiling, I’d be looking for that person. 16 SENATOR ZANE: Well, then let me try one more 17 time. Wouldn’t that suggest that something needs to be 18 done differently on the Turnpike? 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yes. 20 SENATOR ZANE: And that something need not 21 necessarily be done differently where A, B and C 22 patrol? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: I disagree with that. 24 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: The reason I disagree with

Examination - Dunbar 185 1 that is that I think on the Turnpike we have to look -- 2 we have to and we are looking much closer to see what 3 it is that’s causing this problem. For example, I’ll 4 tell you -- 5 SENATOR ZANE: That’s what I’m saying. 6 COLONEL DUNBAR: Let me tell you. For 7 example, you know, I have another station that’s -- 8 you’re in Gloucester County, right? 9 SENATOR ZANE: Yes. 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: I have another station that 11 borders your county that I have some concerns about and 12 we’ve taken some pretty dramatic action there too 13 because the numbers -- that’s why I said, you know, 14 this fascination with the numbers, Moorestown -- Troop 15 D is one thing, Moorestown within Troop D is another 16 thing. But there are pockets -- 17 SENATOR ZANE: But since you are rotating 18 troopers, and I recognize you’re saying a five-year 19 basis, but if the problem has persisted there, doesn’t 20 it suggest that it’s not the troopers, it’s something 21 indigenous to the Turnpike? 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: And that’s the thing that 23 I’m struggling with. That is the thing that I’m trying 24 to find out what’s causing this. And where people may 25 be opposed to the idea of a violator survey -- you Examination - Dunbar 186 1 know, Senator Zane, if a trooper is out there doing the 2 job the way it’s supposed to be done, I feel I have to 3 support him or her just as much as somebody, you know, 4 just as much as I would be after somebody who’s not 5 doing the job. And that’s why this to me has become a 6 real challenge and, you know, I said in my opening 7 statement about sometimes I kind of feel like a parent, 8 that this is something that is very important to me. 9 I’m looking for the answers. I want to find the 10 answers. And I know it’s my responsibility. It’s not 11 the Attorney General’s responsibility, it’s my 12 responsibility. It’s always been the Superintendent’s 13 responsibility to make sure that his or her people are 14 protected. That we’re doing the right thing. And, you 15 know, I have been lobbying for this violator survey, 16 not because I think it’s going to be the only answer. 17 You know, I was the one in the Attorney General’s 18 Office that, you know, we had a meeting and I said, you 19 know -- because I’m from South Jersey. I said, nobody 20 in South Jersey use the Turnpike. I mean they use 295. 21 They use 42, they use 295. So, you know, again, 22 unscientifically, when I look -- when I look at that 23 road and I see just out-of-state people, what are they 24 looking to do? They’re looking to go from down in the 25 Woodstown area, straight up to New York, just going

Examination - Dunbar 187 1 through -- going through our state, and the chances are 2 that they may be driving faster than even New Jersey 3 residents would drive. That road is not as crowded as 4 the road up north is. So there’s a lot of things that 5 could be bringing this about. And I also think, and 6 this is something that I also think that education 7 plays a part in this and this is why I say the 8 perceptions that you bring -- the perceptions that you 9 bring to the table -- and again, I go back to my 10 opening statement, if you think certain types of people 11 are involved in -- 12 SENATOR ZANE: What do you mean by that? 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: Pardon me? 14 SENATOR ZANE: What do you mean by that? 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: What do you mean? 16 SENATOR ZANE: Well, you just said if you 17 bring the perception that certain types of people -- 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: If you think -- 19 SENATOR ZANE: Let me ask you this, because I 20 had a question similar to this and this gets to it 21 clearer. 22 What went through your mind when you said 23 certain types of people? 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: What went -- well, when I 25 used the term “certain types of people,” I was Examination - Dunbar 188 1 referring to minorities. 2 SENATOR ZANE: Minorities. 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: Go ahead. 4 SENATOR ZANE: Well, you said something 5 earlier and, frankly, I didn’t get it all down so feel 6 free to correct me. But I noted here to ask you what 7 did you mean when you said something to the effect that 8 law enforcement has a better idea who commits most of 9 the crimes. 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: I didn’t say that. 11 SENATOR ZANE: You said something, I thought, 12 pretty close to that. 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, I don’t think I said 14 anything close to that at all. I talked about law 15 enforcement deals with a small percentage of the -- 16 SENATOR ZANE: You said something about let’s 17 talk frankly, let’s be honest. We don’t necessarily 18 come into contact with a lot of people -- 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: Right. 20 SENATOR ZANE: -- in law enforcement. 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: Right. 22 SENATOR ZANE: We have a sense of who -- I 23 thought you said, who commits most of the crimes. 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, no, absolutely not. 25 What I said is that, and this is I think pretty

Examination - Dunbar 189 1 accurate, is that when you come to law enforcement, you 2 come with your own perceptions. In law enforcement you 3 deal with a small portion of the population. 4 SENATOR ZANE: Do you, as the head of the 5 State Police, have a perception that minorities commit 6 more crimes? 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: No. 8 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think -- and I think 10 that’s one of the big mistakes. I think -- 11 SENATOR ZANE: I wanted to ask you that 12 because I had the impression that’s what you were 13 saying. 14 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, no. 15 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, you’re dead wrong on 17 that. 18 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: What I’m saying to you, 20 Senator Zane, is that, you know, in fact, it was an 21 interesting thing, that I saw an article -- this goes 22 back to 1994 in the Atlanta Journal in which they 23 talked about the fact that nobody ever writes or nobody 24 ever publishes -- it was a convention of minority media 25 personnel, and they said that nobody ever publishes the Examination - Dunbar 190 1 fact that 95 percent of minority youths are not 2 involved in crime. That figure, based on my experience 3 in law enforcement, was, you know, I thought that it 4 was a high figure, but then I went back and I looked at 5 the figure and I looked at what the prison population 6 is and so on, and -- or, for example, the prison 7 population may be disproportionate. We have, I think, 8 2 million people in prison and we have 266 million 9 people. That’s still a very small, very small 10 percentage of people. Where you run into a danger is 11 that when you allow your perceptions of who’s involved 12 in crime to govern your actions, and I think that’s 13 what I was talking about. 14 SENATOR ZANE: Within what other major troop 15 is there a program of drug interdiction other than D? 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t know, I don’t think 17 we have a drug interdiction program in D. 18 SENATOR ZANE: Isn’t there -- isn’t there 19 some sort of a program or something? Aren’t there some 20 federal funds tied to some program that deals with the 21 Turnpike? 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: There used -- well, I think 23 there used to be. 24 SENATOR ZANE: Not any longer? 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: No.

Examination - Dunbar 191 1 SENATOR ZANE: Is there a greater emphasis by 2 the hierarchy of the State Police placed on the 3 troopers that are on the New Jersey Turnpike to deal 4 with “the drug problem?” 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: No. 6 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: I can’t -- and again, when I 8 say that, Senator Zane, I can’t speak about before, but 9 I can speak about now. 10 SENATOR ZANE: Okay. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: I can also tell you that 12 there hasn’t been one day I have not had one discussion 13 with a trooper commander in Troop D in which I said go 14 out and make more drug arrests. My counsel to the 15 troop commanders has been that look, go out, do your 16 job. Do it to the best of your ability. Do it 17 constitutionally. Have your people show compassion. 18 Build bridges. I have also said, I have also told them 19 -- as a matter of fact I told every trooper, I’m not 20 going to defend the undefendable. But if we do the 21 right thing, I’ll defend it. And it doesn’t, you know, 22 matter to me who criticizes it. We’re out there, we’re 23 trying to do the job the right way and if you can 24 demonstrate to me that we’re doing the right thing, 25 even if it doesn’t work out okay, I’m going to defend Examination - Dunbar 192 1 you. 2 SENATOR ZANE: You are a strong proponent of 3 consent searches, I gather? 4 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, I’m not. 5 SENATOR ZANE: You’re not. The Attorney 6 General indicated today that in this state he would 7 have stopped consent searches but for your strong 8 convincing arguments -- 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, that’s -- 10 SENATOR ZANE: -- that we should have it. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: Again, I wasn’t here and 12 what he said -- what my position is is that I don’t 13 think that you should take away tools from law 14 enforcement personnel without there being a reason. To 15 be honest, if we don’t -- if we don’t do better, I’m 16 not going to have to worry about anybody taking it 17 away, because the Appellate Court is going to take it 18 away. And if you go back and you look at the 19 decisions, it involves consent search. It involves 20 what we used to be able to do. For example, if a 21 person didn’t have a registration in their car. It 22 involves what we were used to be able to do if a person 23 didn’t have a driver’s license on them. All of those 24 things have been taken away from us. And I’ll tell you 25 something else, too, I have found that when these

Examination - Dunbar 193 1 decisions were being made, this was never conveyed to 2 the troopers. So, I mean, I’ve started now a program 3 where when these court decisions are made, that they 4 are distributed to the troopers so they know what the 5 current law is. 6 You know, when I say about the rules, the 7 rules let us have consent searches and I don’t want to 8 take away tools that we need to fight in law 9 enforcement. But -- and this is the thing that I when 10 I talk to the troopers I tell them that to some degree 11 with some people we’ve lost the benefit of the doubt. 12 We have to fight to get back the benefit of the doubt. 13 We have to fight to keep -- to keep things such as 14 consent decrees -- I mean consent searches and so on, 15 because if we don’t, we’re going to end up losing. But 16 if the Committee or if the Senate says, you know, that 17 there should be a bill passed to take consent searches 18 off the table, then that’s what we’ll do. 19 SENATOR ZANE: I have more confidence in the 20 State Police. I think that given the right climate, 21 given the right instructions, that again, the bulk of 22 the people will do it. There will always be those that 23 don’t get it. 24 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, I think everybody on 25 this Committee feels the exact same way about the State Examination - Dunbar 194 1 Police. That brings me to one other point. You had 2 mentioned about, in regards to a question from I think 3 Senator Girgenti, you had made reference to the 4 “bullies.” Do you recall that? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Um-hmm. 6 SENATOR ZANE: Tell me what you meant. 7 COLONEL DUNBAR: Just that, bullies. 8 People -- 9 SENATOR ZANE: Within the State Police? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yes. 11 SENATOR ZANE: And how are you dealing with 12 them? 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you know, I’m trying 14 to take them on -- 15 SENATOR ZANE: Are they identified? 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: Are they identified? Some 17 of them are. Some of them we have cases on. Others 18 are out there. Bullies are individuals that, you know, 19 and I’ve used other terms for them. They are people 20 who I don’t think have any place in law enforcement. 21 And I guess bullies is probably about as good a word as 22 any in the sense that they need their authority to prop 23 them up. They don’t believe in what I believe in. I 24 believe that there’s a part of law enforcement that is 25 compassionate. I believe that we are here to serve the

Examination - Dunbar 195 1 people of the state. All of the people of the state. 2 I believe that the law is as important as making an 3 arrest, for example. Bullies believe that you can -- 4 because you’re in law enforcement -- and they exist not 5 just in the State Police, they exist throughout law 6 enforcement. But they believe because you are in law 7 enforcement you can pretty much do whatever you want to 8 do. They believe that in some cases they don’t have to 9 do anything. They’re just not good employees. They’re 10 not good people. But the State Police isn’t unique in 11 this. I just returned from a conference of the 12 National Executive Institute with Major Chese from 13 across the country and that was one of the number one 14 topics. You know, and I will also tell you that having 15 gone there, you know, one of the things that -- one of 16 the things that I found in the State Police is that 17 where other departments have major corruption problems, 18 we don’t. I mean we have this problem, but this is 19 still a very good, very strong, very proud 20 organization. And you know what? If it wasn’t, I 21 don’t think I’d be sitting here today, you know, 22 talking to you the way that I’m talking to you. I mean 23 I am very proud -- you know, the thing that I’m 24 probably the proudest is that despite everything that’s 25 happened in the last two or three years -- and I don’t Examination - Dunbar 196 1 know of any agency that has been through more -- that 2 has been through more review and, you know, whatever, 3 but they haven’t missed a beat. Every call has been 4 answered. Every major -- every major event that’s 5 happened. Y2K. Liberty -- the thing in Liberty State 6 Park, the National Republican Convention. All of the 7 things that they’ve been called upon to do, they have 8 done. And you know what? Even beginning this year, 9 our statistical accomplishments as far as traffic 10 enforcement and everything, all of those things for the 11 most part have also increased. 12 So these are some resilient people. And, 13 quite frankly, I’m tired of the people who don’t want 14 to -- who want to make all the noise, but don’t bring 15 anything to the table, getting all the credit. Or 16 getting all of the press. I just -- a good 90 percent, 17 80, 90 percent of this organization -- we just 18 graduated a class of people today and they were 19 extremely proud. I met one police officer, he had been 20 a police officer for 15 years and he came with us as a 21 State Police. He’s a brand new recruit trooper. Why 22 do people do that? Why is that across the country when 23 I go to the meetings, that other departments can’t find 24 enough recruits? Portland, Oregon just dropped its 25 college requirement because it can’t find enough

Examination - Dunbar 197 1 recruits. LAPD has to go across the country because it 2 can’t find enough recruits. We not only find enough 3 recruits, but we have the highest percentage of 4 minorities that we’ve had in 11 or 12 years and I’m 5 told it isn’t good enough? I’ve graduated 20 to 25 6 percent minorities in every one of the classes that 7 have graduated and probably will graduate the same in 8 the rest of the classes and they’ve met all of our 9 standards and I’m still told that that’s not good 10 enough? You know, we’re doing pretty good. And do we 11 have all our problems solved? No. 12 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, I think, and I’m 13 speaking for myself, but I’m not -- I certainly heard 14 comments from other Senators that sit on this 15 Committee, and if they want to chastise me for speaking 16 for them, let them do so, but I don’t think they will. 17 I think the vast majority of us sitting here through 18 these days, hours, long nights, and I certainly have 19 myself walked away with the feeling that the State 20 Police, as far back as 1996, wanted to address this 21 issue of racial profiling, made every effort to address 22 the issue of racial profiling by bringing things to the 23 attention of those in authority. And I found that 24 those in authority turned their back on those efforts. 25 And I think some of the -- some of where we are today Examination - Dunbar 198 1 is because people didn’t listen to the State Police. 2 And I hope what I’m saying to you makes you proud of 3 the State Police. Certainly the ones that I’ve seen 4 here that came in and testified, because they sure as 5 hell made me proud of them. They recognized the 6 problem, whatever the problem was from within, they 7 made an effort to address. 8 Thank you. 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: Senator Zane, if I just can 10 comment on that. 11 I agree with you to a point. Leadership I 12 think is a key issue. In fact, I think when I was 13 here, you probably asked some of the more difficult 14 questions my first time -- 15 SENATOR ZANE: Is that why you didn’t speak 16 to me when I bumped into you in Salem? Just kidding. 17 Just kidding. 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: Hey, you know, what goes 19 around, comes around. 20 (Laughter) 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: But I’ll speak to you next 22 time. 23 SENATOR ZANE: Good. 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: In fact, if you give me your 25 license plate number, I’ll speak to you right after we

Examination - Dunbar 199 1 get done here. 2 (Laughter) 3 SENATOR ZANE: Z-1. 4 COLONEL DUNBAR: You know, let me just tell 5 you something about leadership. If you look back at 6 Title 53, the Superintendent in this state has some 7 unique powers and authority. I am not one to cast 8 blame on those outside. I have a tremendous amount of 9 authority within the organization. And one of the 10 other things that I tell my people is that the 11 Superintendent has a responsibility that his job or her 12 job, for that matter, should never be so important to 13 that individual that they’re afraid to walk. And I 14 will tell you, in dealing with John Farmer, there have 15 been occasions where we’ve come to the point where I’m 16 like I’m not going to do that. And you can order me to 17 do it, but I’m not going to do that. 18 SENATOR ZANE: Now, we know what he was 19 referring to this morning. 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, that was of a 21 different issue. That was on the release of some names 22 that I didn’t think should be released and I said you 23 can get a court order, you can order me to do it. And 24 I’ll tell you, even if they ordered me to do it, if I 25 felt that it was wrong, I would leave. And that is Examination - Dunbar 200 1 what -- that is what -- I think one of the questions 2 that the Committee had to me before was leadership. 3 That to me is what I was taught that leadership is. 4 That you never let your people down. And there are 5 things that, you know, my question is is that you have 6 the Attorney General’s Office, you have the State 7 Police. I think things need to be examined thoroughly. 8 What did the State Police do for itself? What did the 9 Attorney General’s Office do? And maybe, as I said, 10 that -- Senator Zane, trust me, there was an air of 11 distrust between these two agencies, something that 12 I’ve really never seen before. And it still exists to 13 some degree now. I’ve spent a lot of time working for 14 whatever distrust there was, and still exists. The 15 progress that we’ve made has also been a progress of 16 the two agencies working together. I don’t believe 17 that it would be fair to just say that the Attorney 18 General’s Office alone bears the responsibility. If, 19 in fact -- if, in fact -- and I have not seen this yet, 20 if, in fact, it got to the point where we’re saying 21 we’re going to do this unless you tell us we can’t do 22 this, then the responsibility lies in the other. If 23 that happened, and that’s fine. 24 But a lot of the things that I’ve seen were 25 things that really are under my control. I can’t,

Examination - Dunbar 201 1 because I wasn’t at the meetings and because I didn’t 2 write those documents and because -- I can’t speak to 3 what really happened there. 4 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, you’re there. You’re 5 the Harry Truman of the New Jersey State Police. The 6 buck stops with you. What recommendations do you have? 7 And I recognize you’re there 18 months, but what 8 recommendations do you have to us as a legislative body 9 to address the issue? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: Okay. My number one 11 recommendation to you is is that don’t let morale or 12 the issue of morale cloud everything. Examine what 13 morale is. Examine what people are saying. Examine 14 what we’re doing. Examine if we’re moving in the right 15 direction. Ask questions. I think these type of -- I 16 think these type of Committee hearings are, although 17 somewhat unusual for Trenton maybe, I think they’re 18 productive. I think putting -- I think John Farmer 19 took a -- he may regret it now, but he took a very 20 brave step in releasing those documents because I think 21 it needed to be done. There are a lot of people, my 22 counterparts throughout the country, that consent 23 decrees. I’m not a big fan of them, but you know what? 24 I use my consent decree. I use it because I use the 25 Monitor to come in and I use them to tell me where Examination - Dunbar 202 1 we’re making mistakes. Where we haven’t gone far 2 enough. I think that that type of -- that type of an 3 environment where you’re basically called to task is 4 not necessarily a bad deal. 5 SENATOR ZANE: Well, you’re saying don’t get 6 distracted with issues of morale, but what in the 7 legislative area, that’s the business of this body, 8 what suggestions do you have? What can we do? You 9 began your statements by sort of chastising us. I 10 think you said it’s been around a long time. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: Chastising? I would never 12 chastise you, Senator. 13 SENATOR ZANE: Began by telling us the 14 problem has been around a long time. We really haven’t 15 done -- 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you know what? I 17 mean -- 18 SENATOR ZANE: What do you suggest we do? 19 You look at it, you live it every single day. 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: Close oversight. 21 SENATOR ZANE: I’m sorry? 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: I said close oversight. I 23 think that -- I think the State Police is a revered 24 institution in the state and I also believe that 25 absolute power can corrupt. And I think from time to

Examination - Dunbar 203 1 time, you know, whether you do it -- I don’t know 2 whether it has to be in a public setting, but whether 3 you -- if you have questions about the organization, 4 that the Superintendent is called in, is asked about 5 what’s going on. You know, what the issues are. 6 SENATOR ZANE: Do you think there should be 7 different standards for even requesting a consent to 8 search, since you don’t want to give up that tool? 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: Do I think there should be 10 different standards? I think -- 11 SENATOR ZANE: Yeah. 12 COLONEL DUNBAR: -- that there should be one 13 standard. 14 SENATOR ZANE: And should it just be probable 15 cause? 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, if you have probable 17 cause -- if you have probable cause, I don’t think -- 18 reasonable suspicion, I think, is the -- probable cause 19 you don’t have to, you know -- if I’ve got probable 20 cause, I don’t need your consent. 21 SENATOR ZANE: You’re right. You’re 22 absolutely right. What should it be? What should that 23 standard be? 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: What should the standard be? 25 I think reasonable suspicion is a good standard. Examination - Dunbar 204 1 SENATOR ZANE: Reasonable suspicion and 2 articulable... 3 Suggestions? 4 COLONEL DUNBAR: I mean -- actually, I mean, 5 I guess I would -- you know, it’s -- I’m in an unusual 6 situation that because of the good Legislature we have, 7 I think -- 8 SENATOR ZANE: Should reasonable suspicion be 9 something else? That’s really what I’m trying to say. 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: Should reasonable -- no, I 11 don’t. 12 SENATOR ZANE: You don’t think it should. 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think reasonable suspicion 14 is -- the problem -- the problem that you have with 15 reasonable suspicion is, is it reasonable suspicion? 16 Knowing what reasonable suspicion is. And this is one 17 of the things actually -- and in the case of Moorestown 18 that we’re working with, that we’re looking back is 19 what you thought to be reasonable suspicion, is that 20 really reasonable suspicion? 21 SENATOR ZANE: Senator Lynch spoke earlier 22 with the Attorney General and talked about how little 23 fruit really comes out of all of this and is it really 24 worthwhile 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think on a national

Examination - Dunbar 205 1 average -- 2 SENATOR ZANE: Subjecting people. 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: On a national average, when 4 I told you about the 1.3 million searches, 17 percent 5 of whites were found to have something. Eight percent 6 of -- I think eight percent of African-Americans were 7 found to have contraband. And ten percent of Hispanics 8 were found to have contraband. 9 SENATOR ZANE: Colonel, I don’t want to leave 10 this opportunity thinking that you don’t have any real 11 suggestions if you do. And if you do, please tell us 12 what they are. If you don’t, well, then I guess 13 that’s -- 14 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t -- I don’t have any 15 -- I mean I don’t really have any. 16 SENATOR ZANE: Thank you. 17 SENATOR GORMLEY: In terms of morale, we’re 18 going to book members of the Committee whenever you’re 19 engaged in training with the next recruit class. Some 20 of the members of the Committee want to run with them 21 on the three or five-mile run to show their support, 22 okay? Mr. Chertoff and I are already volunteering. 23 The rest of the Committee, I see Senator Robertson’s 24 very excited. They’re very excited. So in -- 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: Give me the date and I’ll be Examination - Dunbar 206 1 there with you. 2 SENATOR GORMLEY: Oh, I think we will be 3 available for that. 4 Next. Senator O’Connor. Who is a marathon 5 runner, by the way. 6 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Former. Former marathon. 7 SENATOR GORMLEY: Former marathon. Oh, 8 please. 9 (Laughter) 10 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Twice, but many years ago. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: That makes two of us. 12 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Colonel, I was listening 13 to your answer to Senator Girgenti early on about 14 morale. And I must admit that I had a different sense 15 of where you were on that than I do now after hearing 16 some further questioning on that by Senator Zane. And 17 I was wondering -- and the fact that you have a class 18 of state troopers that graduated today, and I think you 19 pretty much answered this in your response to Senator 20 Zane, is it your sense that these new troopers have the 21 same sense of pride in becoming state troopers as 22 classes that preceded them have had? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: Absolutely. Absolutely. 24 And I’ve spent two hours with each one of the -- two to 25 three hours with each of the graduating classes and I

Examination - Dunbar 207 1 do it at the end of the term and I talk to them about 2 how important it is to be able to stand up for yourself 3 and just something as simple as at the end of eight 4 weeks now we tell the recruits, if you don’t want to 5 have a shaved head, grow your hair. I mean you’ve got 6 a military cut, and the whole point of that is that I 7 want them to be strong enough that when they get out on 8 the road, even as a brand new trooper, to make 9 decisions for themselves. I’m putting these people in 10 a very, very complex world. A world that is so complex 11 that I couldn’t have imagined it years ago. And one of 12 the untold stories that I have seen through the 13 videotapes is how -- I guess, you know, as I use the 14 term bullies for troopers, how nasty some of the public 15 can be in their motor vehicle encounters. And I have 16 to prepare my people for that. And there was some 17 question about well, you know, you changed this 18 standard. You changed that standard. We’ve been 19 changing standards all the time. But those people that 20 are graduating today, the people that graduated a 21 couple of weeks ago and the people that are going to 22 graduate three weeks from now through the 28th of May, 23 they have gone through all the same training. They are 24 just as proud. And as I indicated, when you get an 25 individual who leaves the police department after 15 Examination - Dunbar 208 1 years of service to come onboard with us, I think that 2 says something about us. And I think just like in the 3 Marine Corps, that you have to be very careful about 4 tradition. You have to be very careful about the image 5 of your organization, because the only -- the only 6 military agency that recruits, that meets its 7 recruitment goal consistently is the United States 8 Marine Corps. And the reason for it, I would submit in 9 part, is because of their image. Because there’s 10 something special. And you know something interesting 11 about the Marine Corps? Is that while it has all that 12 tradition, while it has all those other things, they’re 13 the one Service that constantly changes. They adapt to 14 missions almost on a yearly basis. They go anyplace, 15 anytime and they get the job done. And not that, you 16 know, not that we’re the Marine Corps, but I think 17 we’re kind of the Marine Corps of New Jersey. 18 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Well, as a former Army 19 officer, I would take exception somewhat to that. 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you can take an 21 exception if you want, you know. My dad spent 26 years 22 in the Army and there is a difference. 23 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Like some of the other 24 members of this Committee, I started my career as an 25 attorney, as an assistant prosecutor and I had

Examination - Dunbar 209 1 experience in those days working with the State Police, 2 particularly on gambling cases. And I know that long 3 ago I had the sense that this was the elite police 4 force in the State of New Jersey. And my sense from 5 what you said about how the recruits come out and how 6 they’re trained, et cetera, is that there is still that 7 sense today, that this is, in fact, the elite police 8 force in the State of New Jersey. 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: This has been -- this has 10 been probably -- no, there’s no doubt, this has been 11 the worst three years I think in the history of the 12 State Police. And it’s been terrible because it’s a 13 constant battering that we have endured and it is 14 keeping that image, and keeping that opinion is very 15 important. And that’s one of the reasons that I hope 16 that when these hearings are over and the issues have 17 all been surfaced, that we can go back and bring about 18 change in a little bit more of a closed environment, 19 because change is still very desperately needed in 20 order for us to meet the challenges of the century. In 21 order for us to be elite, you just don’t become elite. 22 You become elite by going out and practicing your trade 23 craft and going out and being the best. You can’t just 24 announce I’m going to win the Super Bowl. You have to 25 go out and actually win it. And I’ll tell you, I think Examination - Dunbar 210 1 that as the State Police goes forward to meet the 2 challenges of this new millennium, it is going to have 3 to be more dynamic. We have a tremendous computer 4 crime unit. Those type of things are our future. But 5 if we can’t -- if we lose faith with the people, we’ve 6 lost everything. And I think that this issue of -- 7 this issue of compassion, I think is just as important 8 to law enforcement as arresting. And again, I go back 9 to General Schwarzkopf where he talks about the 10 prevention of crime and making sure that you have the 11 good opinion of the people. I mean this is in 1921 he 12 said that. And, you know, all of us in this room are 13 public servants and if we’re not about getting the good 14 opinion of the people, and that means all the people, 15 then I don’t think we’ve done our job. 16 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Colonel, what’s the, if 17 there is, an average length of service for a trooper? 18 What do you expect for the average -- 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think the bulk of the 20 State Police stay 25 years. My classmates, I think 21 probably about half my class is still around and they 22 graduated in 1973. But 25 years is really the point 23 where you’re eligible to get a pension. We really have 24 very few people that leave. And the ones that do 25 leave, go to other law enforcement agencies that they

Examination - Dunbar 211 1 believe have, you know, provide more advantages to 2 them, you know, whether it be the DEA or the FBI or 3 Secret Service. But we don’t have a tremendous 4 turnover rate. 5 SENATOR O’CONNOR: You’ve testified that 6 you’ve been having minority inclusion in the most 7 recent classes to the extent of 20 to 25 percent. I 8 asked the Attorney General this morning what the 9 percentage of minority in promotions were. Do you have 10 a -- he didn’t know the numbers. Do you have some 11 handle on how many NCO’s and officers you have now? 12 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t have that number 13 offhand. I know that -- well, see, the percentages 14 could be somewhat misleading. Like, for example, I 15 could tell you that we increased African-American 16 Lieutenants the last time by 100 percent and that would 17 sound pretty good. But if I told you the number was 18 two, it would be a little bit, you know, a little bit 19 less. And that’s one of the problems. The last 20 promotional cycles we did increase minorities at the 21 rank of Lieutenant by -- we doubled it. And the next 22 promotional cycle, the next promotions we have I think 23 we’ll probably see close to six or seven minority or 24 women Captains, which will be the largest number in the 25 history of the State Police. Now, I say that because Examination - Dunbar 212 1 they’re acting Captains now. Unless something goes 2 wrong, they’ll move forward. We still will not have a 3 large representation. We will have no women above the 4 rank of Captain. We will have one Hispanic above the 5 rank of -- above the rank of Captain. And that’s out 6 of -- let’s see, we have I think nine Majors. One is 7 an Hispanic. We have no African-Americans. We have 8 two Lieutenant Colonels. But that’s another thing too 9 that there are those that would have me rush and just 10 put people in positions and I think that that’s unfair. 11 The people that are moving into the Captain ranks, they 12 deserve to be there. They’re all good people. They 13 all know their jobs. And they will be the cadre of 14 people which we will be able to select from for Majors 15 and then possibly Lieutenant Colonels later on. 16 So we are making progress. And again, 17 everyone expects or has, since I’ve been here -- I 18 think I was here three or four months and people would 19 say well, why aren’t all the problems resolved? You 20 know, it just doesn’t happen that way. 21 SENATOR O’CONNOR: Thank you very much. 22 SENATOR GORMLEY: Senator Robertson. 23 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 24 Good afternoon, Colonel. Thank you for 25 coming today.

Examination - Dunbar 213 1 I want to ask your opinion on something. The 2 question I’m asking is not in the nature of asking for 3 an explanation, it’s really in the nature of asking you 4 for your opinion, your best educated opinion on 5 everything you know. 6 We were given some statistics this morning by 7 the Attorney General concerning consent searches. And 8 those statistics included find rates as well as consent 9 search request rates and so forth. And one of the 10 things that was striking about it was that the find 11 rate was not even the same throughout the racial 12 composition, but actually was lower for minority 13 drivers than for non-minority drivers. And yet the 14 consent request rate, which I’ll call a suspicion rate, 15 was actually three to four times higher, depending on 16 what barracks you looked at. And I guess my question 17 is this. Why do you think that is? 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: Perception. That’s what 19 I’ve been talking about all day, is that, you know, 20 Senator, if you became a trooper, you would bring to 21 the job your own perceptions. Your growing up. Your 22 education. What you think is right and what you think 23 is wrong. And perception is really a difficult -- 24 really a difficult issue. There’s a scholar that says, 25 “We see things as we are, not as they are.” And that Examination - Dunbar 214 1 really kind of underlines. If you see things, you 2 know, the number that you talked about, the national 3 study that I referred to, found the exact same thing. 4 It was 17, 8, 10. Eight African-Americans. Ten 5 Hispanics. And 17 white males. The perceptions that 6 you bring to a job, that’s why in the Lawrence case, 7 and I had not looked at the word, but the term 8 “unwittingly,” I think you can engage in racial 9 profiling unwittingly. And that becomes a real sore 10 point because you think you’re doing the right thing. 11 You just think that you’re acting, but you’re 12 unwittingly. Now, it doesn’t make it any less onerous 13 for the individual that it’s happening to. But that’s 14 one of the things. And I think -- my hope is at some 15 point people will seek to understand what causes this 16 as opposed to just looking at numbers and looking at 17 consequences and looking to poke somebody’s eye out. 18 You know, I don’t know if you know this, Senator, in 19 1990 -- in 1990 arrests in the State Police for drugs 20 went up from 5,000 to 10,000 in one year because there 21 was a zero tolerance. The next year it dropped back to 22 5,000. Now, I fear was the envelope pushed back then? 23 Were people told to go out and numbers -- numbers are 24 the end all? You know, I don’t know. But perception, 25 perception I think is the real evil here and the

Examination - Dunbar 215 1 perception can be something that you want it to be or 2 it can be an unwitting perception. And one of the most 3 difficult topics to teach is cultural diversity. 4 Everybody feels -- when you teach cultural diversity, 5 everybody feels that it’s automatically something that, 6 you know, you’re on the defensive. What are you saying 7 is wrong with me? What are you accusing me of? You 8 know, I’ll give you a solid test. You know, go 9 someplace one day and have something happen to you and, 10 you know, check your own memory bank. Jessie Jackson 11 is quoted as saying, he was walking down a street 12 somewhere late at night and when he turned he was 13 relieved to feel that it was a white face following 14 him, not a black face. That too is perception. That 15 too is -- that too is very sad. It is extremely sad 16 that you have those perceptions. We have to learn -- 17 we have to work to overcome those perceptions. 18 This is no -- this racial profiling you’re 19 struggling with I struggle with every single day. And, 20 Senator Zane, you said you read a lot of documents? I 21 read them by them boxfuls. There is no easy answer. 22 And when you have good people that think that they’re 23 doing the right thing and they’re not, and they’re not, 24 and unwittingly not, trying to convince them that this 25 is not the way to go about doing the job, is very, very Examination - Dunbar 216 1 difficult. And I’ll tell you something else, everybody 2 in this country, every police department in this 3 country is going to struggle with this. And if at some 4 point crime goes up, we’re going to take a step back. 5 All you need to do is take a look at New York. New 6 York in 1994, 1993, had 2,600 homicides. The police 7 department became very, very aggressive. Today’s 8 homicide rate is seven to 800. And now we’re looking 9 at other issues. They too, are going to a kinder, 10 gentler police department. Because as problems change, 11 the inferences for law enforcement also has to change. 12 You have to adjust. You have to do what the Marine 13 Corps does, adjust to the mission. And if you don’t do 14 that, you run into problems. But that -- what you’re 15 talking about, Senator, is really the heart of it, 16 perception. 17 SENATOR ROBERTSON: And it’s funny, you might 18 be glad to note that when I made note of that question, 19 it was just above the notation I had made of what you 20 said, which was the problem comes when you allow your 21 perception to govern your action. 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: Right. 23 SENATOR ROBERTSON: And, in fact, that was 24 the answer to the question. And I’ll also note to you 25 that one of the reasons I was a little late coming into

Examination - Dunbar 217 1 this particular portion of the hearing was I was having 2 the exact same conversation with an observer of these 3 hearings out in the hallway where the exact same points 4 were being made about how perception enters into 5 decisions, even of people who are acting in good faith. 6 And one of the things that I’ve been trying to say 7 throughout these entire hearings is that there is a 8 race consciousness that is in all of us and that that’s 9 the thing that we have to begin to acknowledge and to 10 come to terms with or else we’ll never be able to lead 11 each other. And that’s really what has to happen. To 12 lead each other out of this situation. 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: You know, if we -- Senator 14 Zane, if we could legislate what he just said, this 15 would be a home run. That’s -- and that’s the thing 16 that I’ve been struggling with. And that’s the thing 17 that I think that’s been missing in this whole hearing. 18 SENATOR ROBERTSON: I agree. 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: Is that the issue isn’t who 20 did what, where or when, I mean because we’re all 21 involved in this. You’re involved. The Governor is 22 involved. The State Police is involved. We’re all 23 involved. And, you know, this country is unique in 24 that we have so many diverse people. What bothers me a 25 little bit is that as we struggle through this, there Examination - Dunbar 218 1 are those out there that are taking advantage of the 2 situation and that also is taking place. And I see 3 that in the videotapes. I see that in the complaints 4 that people -- and that has led me to prosecute five 5 people for filing false complaints against the State 6 Police because they were so blatant. And we will 7 proceed to try to bring down our complaints. People 8 are blatant because they’re misusing this time and 9 we’re trying to -- we’re trying to discover what we 10 must do. 11 But, you know, as young as this country is, 12 some of these issues we’ve been struggling with for 13 years, the civil rights laws really weren’t passed 14 until 1963, ‘64 and even though it’s been 36 years, we 15 still have a long way to go. And we also have to be 16 very cognizant of those people who want to take 17 advantage of the situation as opposed to those people 18 who are genuinely interested in the issues. And the 19 issue is an issue of perception. It’s an issue of -- 20 and for those people who are going to look for the 21 answers just in statistical data, it’s important, but 22 it’s not the end all. 23 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Oh, no. It’s actually -- 24 but it is an important starting point. 25 COLONEL DUNBAR: It’s an important starting

Examination - Dunbar 219 1 point because you need to be able to identify where you 2 have problems. And then go in and hopefully, you know, 3 one of the things that -- if I just -- we had a trooper 4 stop a person and I reviewed the tape. It was a 40- 5 minute stop. And it was, you know, it had racial 6 overtones and such and I took that tape to the troop 7 commander personally. I said I want you to review this 8 tape and I want you to look at this. And then I want 9 you to come and see me. And he came to me and he said, 10 “I can’t believe this.” And I said now I want you to 11 have your Sergeant and your Lieutenant come in and I 12 want them to review it. And they came in and they said 13 they couldn’t -- then we called the trooper in. And 14 this trooper had a master’s degree. He’s a hardworking 15 trooper. And I was ready for a lot of different 16 excuses. What I wasn’t ready for was what he said and 17 what he said was, “I can’t believe that’s me.” Now, I 18 will tell you, I got my master’s in counseling and when 19 I got my master’s, one of the things that we did is 20 they showed you videotapes. And I also couldn’t 21 believe what I was doing in my counseling sessions and 22 I think that’s part of it too, that that trooper did 23 things unwittingly. And I told him, I said, how could 24 I ever possibly defend -- there wasn’t any legality 25 that was involved, but how could I ever defend what Examination - Dunbar 220 1 you’re doing in the public? And, you know, that 2 trooper even allowed us to take that videotape and use 3 it for training purposes. And that again taught me 4 something that there are some people that are doing 5 things that they don’t know that they’re gruff. And, 6 you know, you marry that up with the fact that a lot of 7 troopers end of day in and day out -- we have 450,000 8 what I call negative interactions every year. Those 9 are the tickets we give. There aren’t too many people 10 that are real happy about getting a ticket. So if 11 you’re issuing ten, 20, 30 tickets a month and let’s 12 say half of them people are real nasty to you, you do a 13 year, two, three, by the time you get about ten, 15 14 years, you really get worn. I mean I looked at myself 15 in the media for the last two and a half years -- or 16 last two years and, you know, things do get said. I 17 could never be a politician. I mean it’s just -- it’s 18 just too brutal. I mean it’s just -- really, it’s just 19 too brutal. 20 And those perceptions, when they have those 21 negative encounters, those perceptions just build on 22 and on and on. You know, I worked down in South Jersey 23 as a trooper and after a while, whether I was working 24 in Woodstown or Bridgeton or Mays Landing or whatever, 25 after a while they would just tell you, go to Jim’s

Examination - Dunbar 221 1 house, he’s having another domestic dispute. You’d go 2 to the same places over and over again and that becomes 3 your whole world. You don’t know anything else in any 4 other part of the community except for those particular 5 areas. And if you don’t think that that taints you, it 6 does. I have read every Internal Affairs investigation 7 conducted by the State Police since I’ve come in. 8 Every one of them. I go home with boxes every weekend 9 because I need to know what’s going on. But what I 10 fear, what I fear is that that is tainting me. And yet 11 I’m only really seeing 100, 200, 300 people out of a 12 total of 2,700. And it scares me to death. On one 13 hand, I don’t want to give up looking at it because I 14 need to know what’s in there. I need to know that 15 we’re on the right road. On the other hand, I’m 16 telling you, it frightens me what it does to me because 17 it’s changed my opinion. 18 SENATOR ROBERTSON: And that really permeates 19 throughout society. Through the civilian population as 20 well. We are conditioned -- well, I mentioned to the 21 gentleman outside, I said whether you’re black or white 22 or whatever, an interesting exercise to do is picture 23 in your mind a rapist. Picture in your mind an 24 embezzler. Picture in your mind a gangster. And 25 regardless of what the specifics of the profile in your Examination - Dunbar 222 1 own mind may be, the fact of the matter is that you 2 will develop a profile. You will have a picture based 3 upon what you’ve been conditioned from everything to 4 which you’ve been exposed throughout your life, whether 5 it’s the evening news or the morning papers or the 6 movies or in personal experience, and you lay on top of 7 that the trooper who’s received training on drug 8 interdiction, has been told what statistics are, who 9 are exposed to situations that the rest of us would 10 never want to be exposed to, and that is something that 11 is dealt with on an everyday basis, along with the 12 tension of the job, that every time they make a stop 13 and walk up to a car, there could be a real problem. 14 And when you begin to look at all that, you begin to 15 see the human element on both sides. And I really 16 think it’s important, and I’m so glad that you said 17 what you said, because this is a dialogue that needs to 18 be had. And it has to be one that doesn’t revolve 19 around police versus civilian, Democrat versus 20 Republican, black versus white. And I want to 21 congratulate everybody on this Committee and thank you, 22 Mr. Chairman, to the extent to which -- for the extent 23 to which this has been a bipartisan exercise and we’ll 24 all, whether it’s informally or formally, trying to get 25 at the same thing. Because these are issues that we

Examination - Dunbar 223 1 have been struggling with as we’ve had to pay our 2 fullest attention to them. And I think that you’ve 3 made a real contribution to that dialogue today, 4 Colonel. And I thank you and thank you, Mr. Chairman. 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Senator, you know, when I 6 talked before about morale, I don’t think there are 7 many people in the State Police that feel stronger 8 about the State Police than I do. But what you talked 9 about is what I have to try to get across to them. And 10 that is -- that is, after all they’ve gone through, 11 that’s a very difficult thing to do. And that’s why I 12 said that if they need somebody to dislike, if they 13 need somebody to hate, or if they need somebody to take 14 their aggression out on, you know, I got big shoulders. 15 They can do that. 16 SENATOR ROBERTSON: Well -- is subordinate to 17 that, because you’re too important. 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: But the bottom line is, is 19 that I need them, I need them to understand exactly 20 what you said, that until they come into contact with 21 their perceptions -- and there’s another aspect, too, 22 you know. If the numbers are truly what they appear to 23 be disproportionately, there’s a lot of people getting 24 away that we ought to be looking at that may be 25 involved in a crime. Examination - Dunbar 224 1 SENATOR ROBERTSON: But that’s why the 2 statistics are such a good starting point. You can’t 3 rely on them as the bottom line to anything, but at 4 least they illustrate the questions that need to be 5 dealt with, which is good. 6 Thank you, Colonel. 7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 8 SENATOR GORMLEY: Thank you. 9 Senator Kosco. 10 SENATOR KOSCO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 I just have one question. I asked the 12 Attorney General this morning the same question. 13 Do you think that you would be more effective 14 in your position if your position became a Cabinet 15 member rather than under the Attorney General’s Office? 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: I have kind of a different 17 spin on this. When Title 53 was first started, it had 18 two provisions. One, we’re a separate Department. And 19 two, the Superintendent had five years tenure. And 20 when you have -- as county prosecutors have a five-year 21 tenure, the Superintendent’s tenure is pretty much the 22 same. That if you have five-year tenure as a 23 Superintendent, you have a lot more freedom than you do 24 if you, you know, if you’re basically just serving at 25 the pleasure of whoever. I think that -- I think five-

Examination - Dunbar 225 1 year tenure for the Superintendent, you know, if you 2 look at the FBI, for example, Director Free, when 3 Hoover died they created a ten-year tenure for the 4 Director. And that was specifically done so the 5 Director of the FBI could remain independent and could 6 basically outlast any administration. He could still 7 be removed for cause, but he has that tenure. So you 8 really can remain somewhat apolitical. And I think you 9 know, Senator Kosco, that we have some very strong 10 associations that represent their rank and file and 11 what they want and what I think is good for the State 12 Police may not necessarily be the same thing. And 13 sometimes, as I indicated just as the issue was 14 apparent, you have to -- you have to do things for the 15 good of the organization as opposed to the good of the 16 individual. I don’t know -- if you’re talking about 17 having a separate Department, you know, you’re talking 18 about some duplication. You know, you would have to 19 have separate budgets, separate -- you would actually 20 have more administrative -- I think more administrative 21 costs. As you probably know, I think the Department of 22 Law and Public Safety is 8,000 people, 4,000 of which 23 are in the State Police. We are the largest entity 24 therein. We were a separate Department I think until 25 1948, 1950. The Superintendent had the five-year Examination - Dunbar 226 1 tenure I think until 1970. So that I think is more a 2 governmental question. I don’t really -- I actually 3 feel comfortable. But the reason I feel comfortable is 4 that I have what I think is a good Attorney General. A 5 person that I can talk to. And I’ll tell you, I’ve 6 done battle with Division heads over there. I’ve done 7 battle with the Director of State Police Affairs. And, 8 you know, as I said before, I’m not afraid -- I’m not 9 intimidated whatsoever by the Attorney General. And if 10 he wanted me to do something I thought was wrong, I 11 would what I felt was appropriate. 12 And again, I come from a model in the FBI 13 where the Attorney General -- there’s a parallel. The 14 FBI under Hoover was pretty independent. I mean they 15 pretty much were independent. When I became an agent, 16 that was changing. Today, the Attorney General is, 17 there’s no question, the Attorney General runs the 18 Department of Justice. The Attorney General approves 19 all of the senior positions in the FBI. But the FBI is 20 still a very strong, it’s a very independent 21 organization, to the point that the Attorney General, 22 former Attorney General Reno and Director Free, both 23 publicly fought, disagreed, but they both still 24 respected each other. 25 So I think if you have that independence, you

Examination - Dunbar 227 1 don’t need to have a separate department. But the 2 issue of splitting, that’s -- that’s something that I 3 think that can be looked at. But I think you have to 4 weight the pros and the cons. 5 SENATOR KOSCO: Thank you. 6 SENATOR GORMLEY: Thank you. 7 Jo. 8 MS. GLADING: Good afternoon, Colonel. I 9 just have a couple of quick questions. 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: These are going to be the 11 tough ones, right? 12 MS. GLADING: No, sir. They may be harder 13 than some of the ones you’ve been getting though. 14 The promotional process that -- well, my 15 understanding is that there were no promotional 16 guidelines effectively prior to 1999 -- or prior -- 17 COLONEL DUNBAR: I would dispute that, but 18 they were -- maybe the operative word was “effective,” 19 “effectively.” 20 MS. GLADING: Um-hmm. I understand you’re 21 instituting new promotional guidelines, is that 22 correct? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: We are beginning the process 24 of having stronger promotional policies. 25 MS. GLADING: You’re beginning the process of Examination - Dunbar 228 1 having a stronger promotional process? 2 COLONEL DUNBAR: Um-hmm. 3 MS. GLADING: Okay. Are you having -- are 4 you instituting guidelines for promotions? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, for example, one of 6 the things we’ve instituted is testing. The Attorney 7 General made a promise and we delivered that we would 8 have a test for the next promotions. And this only 9 goes up to the rank of Lieutenant. From Lieutenant up 10 is a different procedure because they’re appointed by 11 me. But we have -- we’ve already tested everybody. In 12 fact, the last test was the 28th. We’ve also included 13 review of Internal Affairs and EEO issues in any 14 promotions that we do. And we are still working on a 15 master plan for promotions in the future. 16 MS. GLADING: When do you think you’ll have 17 that master plan completed? 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: Are you writing this down or 19 can I -- 20 MS. GLADING: Beg your pardon? 21 COLONEL DUNBAR: Are you writing down the 22 date or -- 23 MS. GLADING: Well, it’s being recorded. 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: Let’s see. We’re working 25 with -- I think it will be probably within another year

Examination - Dunbar 229 1 or so. 2 MS. GLADING: So the current test that 3 applies goes up through -- goes up to and including -- 4 COLONEL DUNBAR: Lieutenant. 5 MS. GLADING: -- Lieutenant? 6 COLONEL DUNBAR: Right. Now, on the 7 Captains, what I’ve done with the Captains is that I’ve 8 opened it up. I’ve changed it by SOP where now in most 9 cases individuals can be -- you canvas, anybody can 10 apply. You have to do a certain amount of interviews. 11 Some of the interviews have to be from outside of your 12 section. The interview panel is structured a certain 13 way where you have -- it’s not just the section that’s 14 selecting that particular Captain. 15 So we’re changing -- I have no --I mean I can 16 just appoint a Captain. And in some cases, I mean, I 17 still reserve the right that in some cases if I think a 18 particular Captain needs to be appointed, we will do 19 that. And I would say that probably maybe one out of 20 ten or two out of ten I appoint as opposed to this new 21 process that we have. 22 MS. GLADING: Okay. So you put in a process 23 for Captains -- promotions to Captains as well, but you 24 don’t necessarily always use that process. Sometimes 25 you just make a decision to promote someone. Okay. Examination - Dunbar 230 1 Have you instituted new standards for 2 employee evaluations? 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yes, we have. 4 MS. GLADING: When did those go into effect? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: They went into effect I 6 believe -- I believe January of this year. 7 MS. GLADING: And what’s new about them? 8 COLONEL DUNBAR: They’re a complete new -- 9 they’re a complete new performance appraisal system. 10 We’ve also for the first time gone back to include -- 11 to including Lieutenants and other officers. Where 12 before, Lieutenants got one performance evaluation and 13 that was it so we’ve changed it. 14 MS. GLADING: One per year you mean? 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: No, no, they just got one. 16 When they made Lieutenant, they got one the first year 17 and that was it. 18 MS. GLADING: Now, Lieutenants are getting 19 appraised annually, is that right? 20 COLONEL DUNBAR: Annually and Captains and 21 Majors and Lieutenant Colonels also. 22 MS. GLADING: You talked a lot today about 23 recruitment and initiatives undertaken to improve 24 recruitment. What was the minority representation in 25 the last class?

Examination - Dunbar 231 1 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, you mean today’s 2 class? Last week’s class? This whole -- 3 MS. GLADING: Well, what’s the number of 4 today’s class? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: Today’s class we had 6 thirty -- 7 MS. GLADING: Today is the one hundred 8 and -- 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: 120th. We had 36 graduates 10 -- 37 graduates. Thirty were white males. Four were 11 African-Americans. Two were Hispanics. And one was an 12 Asian. 13 MS. GLADING: Okay. I’m sure you’ve heard 14 concerns raised by troopers about nepotism within the 15 State Police and about -- 16 COLONEL DUNBAR: I think the term was 17 “nepotism and cronyism.” 18 MS. GLADING: Beg your pardon? 19 COLONEL DUNBAR: Nepotism and cronyism. 20 MS. GLADING: Yeah. That’s right. And some 21 of the concerns that have been raised in the context of 22 the 118th class -- 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, let me -- go ahead. 24 Go ahead. 25 MS. GLADING: -- raised concerns about Examination - Dunbar 232 1 nepotism, particularly the test scores that were 2 changed. Is there any ongoing investigation into 3 activities that went on in the selection of the 118th 4 class? 5 COLONEL DUNBAR: The 118th class 6 investigations have been concluded. I’ve reviewed 7 them. I’ve recommended disciplinary action. And? 8 MS. GLADING: And has it been taken yet? 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: The disciplinary action? 10 Some of it has, some of it has not. 11 Now, I want to mention something. Since you 12 brought up nepotism. You know, nepotism can also be 13 family tradition and, you know, I think that the fact 14 that some sons or daughters choose to follow their 15 parents or their brothers and sisters into law 16 enforcement should not be viewed as negative. Now, 17 where it does become a problem, and I think it was 18 pointed out in the two investigations, when unusual 19 things happen -- 20 MS. GLADING: Well, I specifically -- I was 21 not necessarily -- I didn’t mean to be critical of 22 family traditions. I was asking about cases in 23 which -- 24 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, but people always 25 throw out that --

Examination - Dunbar 233 1 MS. GLADING: -- in which test scores were 2 changed or in which -- 3 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, people always throw 4 out -- 5 MS. GLADING: -- a background investigation 6 had been previously failed and the person got into the 7 next class. 8 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, see, you’re not quite 9 correct on what you’re saying there. 10 MS. GLADING: Correct me. 11 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, I will. The 12 background investigation in one case could, in fact, a 13 person could, in fact, not be qualified and then 14 subsequently that person could reapply and whatever 15 issue there was could be -- could, in fact, be 16 resolved. What I will tell you, I think if you’re 17 talking about the two cases in the 118th class, there 18 are two investigations I think that came out of that. 19 I share your concern and I think that there was cause 20 for concern in those particular cases. 21 MS. GLADING: They all involved the sons of 22 high-ranking officers, right? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, the issues with the 24 class, one involved the sons of two officers. I don’t 25 know whether you’d call them high-ranking. You know, Examination - Dunbar 234 1 they were officers, but I don’t know whether you can 2 call them high-ranking or not. But I share your 3 concern on those particular cases. And I would also 4 submit, I think the investigations, which I don’t 5 intend to go into here, were done professionally and I 6 would have no problem with the Monitor looking at them 7 and looking at what our results were. 8 MS. GLADING: The testing procedure that was 9 used, the L-E-C-R? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: LECR? 11 MS. GLADING: LECR, yeah. Was that -- that 12 was a biographical test, is that right? 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: That’s history. 14 MS. GLADING: It’s your life history. 15 COLONEL DUNBAR: That’s history. I mean I 16 don’t -- 17 MS. GLADING: At the time when it was used. 18 COLONEL DUNBAR: I don’t think I can really 19 talk to the LECR because, you know, I didn’t have 20 anything to do with it. 21 MS. GLADING: Was that a blind-screening 22 tool? 23 COLONEL DUNBAR: I’m telling you, you can ask 24 me all the questions you want on that, and I’m not 25 going to be able to answer it because I don’t know

Examination - Dunbar 235 1 anything about the LECR. 2 MS. GLADING: Let me ask you about the 3 Monitor’s report in January, January 10th, 2001. The 4 Monitor discusses an extensive backlog of IAB cases. 5 Can you -- we asked General Farmer this morning and he 6 said he thought you were making good progress on 7 resolving those cases. Can you tell us how -- where 8 you are at on resolving that backlog? 9 COLONEL DUNBAR: Well, the -- again, as I 10 said in my opening statement, that the backlog is still 11 -- is still there. When I arrived I think probably for 12 about eight months there was nothing -- nothing had 13 been done. I got -- when I took my job, I -- and I kid 14 you not, I mean I got boxes, Xerox boxes full of cases 15 that I hauled home every night and every weekend and 16 read. Unfortunately, a number of the cases I had to 17 send back for reinvestigation because there wasn’t -- 18 the investigation conducted wasn’t conducted to the -- 19 it didn’t answer the questions. It didn’t -- there was 20 no detail there. Some things were just glossed over. 21 And I sat there with, you know, pen in hand making page 22 after page of notes. 23 Then the other thing that transpired was that 24 from 1999 to 2000, we went from, I think, 300 and some 25 cases to 584 cases. Now, even though I raised the IAB Examination - Dunbar 236 1 staff from seven investigators to 21 investigators, I 2 think the overall staff from 19 to 51 people, we still 3 have a tremendous backlog. And it’s not getting any 4 easier because we keep getting more and more cases. 5 And a lot of the cases really there is no merit to 6 them. And unfortunately what it does is that when you 7 have so many cases, it bleeds your resources so that 8 you can’t get things done very timely. 9 At my end of last year, I mean I was still 10 finishing cases from ‘96 and ‘97. And now gratefully 11 we were also processing a number of cases from the year 12 2000, but the Monitor wants us, in fact, initially they 13 wanted us to be able to turn them around in 45 days, 14 which is kind of interesting because the FBI -- I can’t 15 even do that. I mean the cases, even in the FBI, 16 weren’t getting done much quicker than the cases here 17 were getting done. My problem was compounded by the 18 fact that we were down -- we were down probably three 19 to 400 troopers and when you increase -- when you 20 increase Internal Affairs personnel, do you -- you 21 know, I get letters from Cumberland County all the time 22 about not having enough people in Bridgeton, not having 23 enough people in Port Norris. Do I take the people off 24 the road where they’re needed and put them all in IAB? 25 I think we’re doing a better job. I think we’re --

Examination - Dunbar 237 1 there’s no question in my mind that the reports are 2 good, of good quality. But we still have to do a lot 3 better with the timeliness. And the timeliness is an 4 issue. 5 MS. GLADING: When did you make, in the 6 context of the Troop D, the cases that emanated out of 7 the Troop D audit of potential discrepancies? When did 8 you make the decision to impose the five percent 9 cutoff? 10 COLONEL DUNBAR: I made that, I think, in I 11 believe October of last year. 12 MS. GLADING: October of 2000? 13 COLONEL DUNBAR: Yeah. September or October, 14 one of the two. 15 MS. GLADING: That’s all I’ve got. 16 SENATOR GORMLEY: Colonel, I want to thank 17 you for your testimony. 18 I’d like to add a couple points to the 19 record. One, I’m very glad that Quantico is the FBI 20 training academy. I assume it helped with your 21 appreciation of the Marine Corps. 22 COLONEL DUNBAR: Actually, PLC helped a lot 23 more. 24 SENATOR GORMLEY: PLC? Okay, that’s good, 25 too. Examination - Dunbar 238 1 For the record, Ed O’Connor did serve in Viet 2 Nam. He never talks about it, but we’re very proud of 3 him. 4 And to three Deputy Attorneys General, 5 Allison Accurso, Jeff Miller and Brian Flanagan, we are 6 lucky as a state that you’re three attorneys who work 7 for New Jersey. And we want to thank you, because this 8 has been very difficult for you and people might not 9 realize it, but you had a very difficult job to do and 10 you did it well and you did it as professionals and you 11 should be very proud. 12 I want that on the record. 13 This will conclude the hearing for today. 14 I’d like to meet with the members of the Committee, the 15 Republican and the Democrats, in the rear. 16 (Off the record) 17 18 * * * * * 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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1 CERTIFICATION 2 3 I, PATRICIA A. KONTURA, the assigned transcriber, 4 do hereby certify the foregoing transcript of 5 proceedings on tape number 1, 01 to end; tape number 2, 6 01 to end; tape number 3, 01 to end; and tape number 4, 7 01 to 1770, is prepared in full compliance with the 8 current Transcript Format for Judicial Proceedings and 9 is a true and accurate compressed transcript of the 10 proceedings as recorded, and to the best of my ability. 11 12 13 14 ______Date: 15 PATRICIA A. KONTURA AOC #234 16 J&J COURT TRANSCRIBERS, INC. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25