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THE FIRSTTHE SECOND MEETING MEETING OF THE OF THE FIFTH FIFTH SESSION SESSION OF THEOF ELEVENTHTHE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAYTUESDAYTUESDAY 13 07 02NOVEMBER NOVEMBER APRIL 2019 2018 2018

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARD NO. 192

DISCLAIMER Unofficial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an unofficial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The final edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Gladys K. T. Kokorwe PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Kagiso P. Molatlhegi, MP South

Clerk of the National Assembly -- Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly -- Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel -- Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) -- Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP --President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) --Vice President

Hon. F. S. Van Der Westhuizen, MP. (Kgalagadi South) --Minister of Local Government and Rural Development

Hon. D. K. Makgato, MP. (Sefhare - Ramokgonami) --Minister of Transport and Communications - Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. N. E. Molefhi, MP. (Selebi Phikwe East) - Administration

Hon. S. Kgathi, MP. () --Minister of Defence, Justice and Security -Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation and Hon. O. K. Mokaila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Tourism Hon. B. Arone, MP. (Okavango) --Minister of Basic Education Hon. M. N. Ngaka, MP () --Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs

Hon. O. K. Matambo, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Finance and Economic Development

Hon. V. T. Seretse, MP. ( - ) --Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Hon. T. Olopeng, MP. () --Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation -Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. T. Mabeo, MP. ( - ) - Development Hon. Dr A. Madigele, MP. (Mmathethe - -Minister of Health and Wellness Molapowabojang) - -Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Energy Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. () --Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. ( West) --Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development

Hon. P. P. Ralotsia, MP. (Kanye North) --Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security

Hon. B. J. Kenewendo, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Hon. B. M. Tshireletso, MP. ( East) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development Hon. M. M. Goya, MP. () --Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry -Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. D. P. Makgalemele, MP. () - Development -Assistant Minister, Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP (Shashe West) - Technology

Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP (Serowe North) --Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Development

Hon. G. B. Butale, MP. (Tati West) --Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. T. Kwerepe, MP. (Ngami) --Assistant Minister, Basic Education

-Assistant Minister, Land Management, Water and Sanitation Hon. I. E. Moipisi, MP. (Kgalagadi North) - Services -Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP (Chobe) - Administration

Hon. K. Markus, MP. (Maun East) --Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Security MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY ( Democratic Party) Hon. Dr P. Venson-Moitoi, MP Serowe South Hon. S. M. Guma, MP Tati East Hon. C. De Graaff, MP South Hon. P. M. Maele, MP - Maunatlala Hon. L. Kablay, MP - Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP Boteti East Hon. J. Molefe, MP Mahalapye West Hon. P. Majaga, MP Nata- Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP West Hon. B. H. Billy, MP Francistown East Hon. E. J. Batshu, MP Nkange Hon. S. Kebonang, MP Hon. K. S. Gare, MP -Manyana Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP Specially Elected OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. Adv. D. G. Boko, MP (Leader of Opposition) Gaborone Bonnington North Hon. G. S. M. Mangole, MP West Hon. A. S. Kesupile, MP Kanye South Hon. N. S. L. M. Salakae, MP Ghanzi North Hon. Dr. T. O. M. Mmatli, MP South Hon. S. Ntlhaile, MP -Mabutsane Hon. M. I. Khan, MP Molepolole North Hon. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Goodhope - Mabule Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP Selebi Phikwe West Hon. S. O. S. Rantuana, MP Hon. K. M. Segokgo, MP Hon. B. M. Molebatsi, MP Mochudi East Hon. H. G. Nkaigwa, MP Gaborone North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP Francistown South Hon. Maj. Gen. P. Mokgware, MP - Hon. N. N. Gaolathe, MP Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. S. Kgoroba, MP Hon. Dr P. Butale, MP Gaborone Central (Independent Member of Parliament) Hon. T. Moremi, MP Maun West TABLE OF CONTENTS THE SECOND MEETING OF THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT TUESDAY 02 APRIL, 2019

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1 - 6

Prisons (Amendment) Bill, 2018 (No. 33 Of 2018) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 7 -26

Marriage (Amendment) Bill, 2018 (No. 37 Of 2018) Second Reading...... 27-33

Media Practitioners (Repeal) Bill, 2018 (No. 38 Of 2018) Second Reading...... 34-40

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Tuesday 2nd April, 2019 the movement of wildlife. There are some animals which are decreasing in number and those cameras have been THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. put in strategic places to establish what could be causing the decline in numbers of those animals. So we do not (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) have a CCTV Madam Speaker. P R A Y E R S The installation of the said cameras was done in February * * * * this year by personnel from this ministry. The total cost was P120 364 074. I thank you Madam Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Madam MADAM SPEAKER (MS KOKORWE): You know, Speaker. Thank you Honourable Minister. Minister, things change. You never used to be like this. since the Honourable Member was asking about the CCTV which you said you do not have, what is the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … name of the ones that you have installed? MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR SERETSE): Procedure. Madam Speaker, I am saying this with deep MR MOKAILA: …(Laughter!) … sorrow regarding the water situation in the area. Honourable Lelatisitswe who comes from a place HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … where there is plenty of water just asked an elderly MADAM SPEAKER: …(Laughter!) … Member of Parliament whether he has taken a bath, since he has come to Parliament today. That is not right. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary. We did not hear him. MADAM SPEAKER: …(Laughter!) … No, let us do questions. It is not right, but let us do questions MADAM SPEAKER: You took too long, I am moving Honourable Members…(Laughter!) … on.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, Madam Speaker.

CLOSED CIRCUIT TELEVISION (CCTV) AND MADAM SPEAKER: No, the last one. Proceed. DIGITAL CAMERAS INSTALLED AT CHOBE NATIONAL PARK MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Honourable Minister, thank you for your response even though MR S. M. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): you did not answer the question well. Regarding these asked the Minister of Environment, Natural Resources cameras that you have installed Honourable Minister, Conservation and Tourism if he is aware of the Closed are you not aware that there are some companies that Circuit Television (CCTV) and digital cameras installed take pictures of the wildlife and send them to other at the Chobe National Park; and if so, to state: countries? Are you not aware that there is a company (i) the purpose of installing such equipment; which uses these cameras that you have installed, that you are not naming? National Geographic? (ii) when the installation was completed; MR MOKAILA: No, what I know is that, there are (iii) the cost of the installation; and those who apply for permits to take pictures at the (iv) the name of the company contracted to do the Chobe National Park, and we grant them permits to installation. do so. They would then take such pictures to National Geographic. I am aware of those however, the ones for MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL research purposes are different and they are operated by RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM us. I thank you. (MR MOKAILA): Good afternoon Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, we do not have Closed Circuit MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mangole, we will Television (CCTV) at Chobe National Park. What we skip your question even though you are here. Come in! have are cameras that we use for research, which capture Rush to your seat and ask the question.

Hansard No 193 1 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

OPERATING HOURS AT KGATLENG DISTRICT districts operate their fire departments within the same COUNCIL FIRE BRIGADE hours and when the Minister will extend the operating times to 24 hours.” It is the only question I have. The MR G. S. MANGOLE (MOCHUDI WEST): asked the one regarding resources and so forth, it is a challenge; Minister of Local Government and Rural Development there are many resources that are used at fire; it could if it is true that the operating hours of the Kgatleng be Human Resource or anything. I do not want to give District Council Fire Brigade stationed in Mochudi are answers that might bind me. I have answered this one from 0730 to 1630 hours on weekdays only; and if so, adequately, Honourable Mangole is fine with it and to state: (i) the reasons given that the service is needed Honourable Ntlhaile will bring his. I will respond to that 24 hours; one adequately.

(ii) which other districts operate their fire departments HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary. within the same hours; and MADAM SPEAKER: No, we are proceeding. (iii) when the Minister will extend the operating times to 24 hours. STATUS OF SPECIAL EDUCATION UNIT IN MOTSUMI AND KGALE HILL JUNIOR ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL SECONDARY SCHOOLS GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Good afternoon Madam MR S. LELATISITSWE (BOTETI EAST): asked the Speaker. Minister of Basic Education to apprise this Honourable House on the status of the Special Education Unit in (i) Madam Speaker, Kgatleng District Council Fire Motsumi and Kgale Hill Junior Secondary Schools and Department operates a three shift system from in particular to state: 0600 hours to 1400 hours, 1400 hours to 2200 hours and 2200 hours to 0600 hours during the (i) the resources and number of children per school; week and also over the weekend. (ii) the qualifications of the teachers; (ii) Madam Speaker, the following Districts operate a fully-fledged three shift system, that is, 8 hour (iii) whether they are paid scarce skill allowances; and per shift; Gaborone City Council, Lobatse Town if not, if it is not opportune time to pay teachers Council, Jwaneng Town Council, Francistown the scarce skill allowance; City Council, Sowa Town Council, Selebi Phikwe (iv) if the schools mentioned above are classified in the Town Council, Council, Chobe same region and which one performs better; District Council, North West District Council, Kgatleng District Council and Central District (v) how Motsumi Junior Secondary School was Council at Palapye and Serowe only. chosen to run the “Thuto le Pono Boswa” Project; and (iii) The existing three shift system at Kgatleng District Council provides 24-hour coverage. I thank you (vi) timelines to this effect. Madam Speaker. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Madam Speaker, I (MR KWEREPE): Thank you Madam Speaker. thank the Honourable Minister. Minister, considering safety of fire, take for instance Jwaneng/ (i) Madam Speaker, Motsumi Junior Secondary areas; do you believe the Fire Department has enough School does not have a Special Education Unit. resources? The school has 18 students with visual impairment, one child with hearing impairment, three with HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… physical disabilities and 14 with learning MR NTLHAILE: No, she has also mentioned Jwaneng. difficulties. Kgale Hill Junior Secondary School has a donated purpose built Special Education MS TSHIRELETSO: Madam Speaker, Honourable Unit and currently assists 64 students, most with Mangole’s question says, “the reasons given that service hearing impairment along with few suffering from is needed 24 hours and also at night. Which other learning disability.

2 Hansard No 193 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(i) Madam Speaker, Motsumi Junior Secondary MR LELATISITSWE: Supplementary. Honourable School has two teachers with Bachelor of Minister, I just wanted to know from you if you care Education (B.Ed.) Special Education and Kgale about these 18 students that are in Motsumi Junior Hill Junior Secondary School has one teacher with Secondary School, and how are you covering them? B.Ed. Special Education. MR KWEREPE: Madam Speaker, we do care about (ii) Teachers with Special Education qualification at students with learning disabilities. I have indicated in Motsumi Junior Secondary School are not paid the body of the answer that we are addressing all these Scarce Skill Allowance as they do not perform issues. I thank you. Special Education duties. They offer their main teaching subjects which do not attract Scarce Skill NUMBER AND STATUS OF CASES Allowance. INVESTIGATED BY DIRECTORATE ON CORRUPTION AND ECONOMIC (iii) The teacher at Kgale Hill Junior Secondary School CRIME (DCEC) THAT ARE READY FOR is paid a Scarce Skill Allowance and coordinates PROSECUTION the operation of the Special Unit. MR S. M. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): (iv) Madam Speaker, the schools mentioned above are asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance not classified in the same region, Motsumi isin and Public Administration to state the number and status Central Region while Kgale Hill Junior Secondary School is in South East Region. Based on Junior of cases investigated by Directorate on Corruption and Certificate results, Kgale Hill Junior Secondary Economic Crime (DCEC) that are ready for prosecution School generally performs better than Motsumi including those of the former Director of Directorate on Junior Secondary School. Intelligence and Security (DIS).

(v) Our ministry in conjunction with the Ministry ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL of Health and Wellness and the is AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC working together to ensure students countrywide ADMINISTRATION (MR SHAMUKUNI): Good are screened and those ones with visual impairment afternoon Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, between are assisted with spectacles and other specialist January 2017 and December 2017, the Directorate on assistance. It is not the case that “Thuto le Pono Corruption and Economic Crime (DCEC) received a Boswa” Project is coordinated at Motsumi Junior total number of 1 174 reports. Out of these, 352 (29.9 per Secondary School, it just so happens that one cent) of the reports, were classified for investigations. trained Ophthalmic at Sekgoma Hospital has seen 18 needed further development, and 663 of these it fit to visit and assist learners in Motsumi. were referred to various organizations. Furthermore, 88 constituted advices to complainants and 53 were (vi) This is a three-year project, the first phase of the received as further reports to the matters already being project started in 2016 and completed in December investigated by the DCEC. Of the 352 reports classified 2018. Phase one targeted primary school children, for investigation, 334 were classified as corruption Phase two is due to start this financial year for all related matters, five as economic crimes and 13 as schools. Thank you. money laundering cases. MR LELATISITSWE: Supplementary. Thank you During 2017, a total of 38 investigation files were Honourable Minister. I just wanted to ask you whether it completed and forwarded to the Directorate of Public is not embarrassing for your ministry to say there are 18 Prosecutions (DPP) for prosecution. Between January special need students and there is no class for them, and 2018 and December 2018, a total of 1 058 reports were there are teachers who are there who are not paid scarce received. Of this total, 279 reports were classified for skill allowance, like in other schools? How do you look investigation. Of these, 15 were referred to Intelligence at it as a Minister, when answering this kind of question? Division as they lacked information, and were sent for MR KWEREPE: Thank you Madam Speaker. There further development. Three reports were deferred as they is nothing embarrassing about the question, I have required additional information prior to classification. answered the question in the manner the Honourable 593 were referrals; these are reports that involved Member asked it. Thank you. maladministration and do not fall under the Directorate’s

Hansard No 193 3 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

mandate. These are referred to relevant departments or TARRING THE BOKAA- AND organizations. 107 (10 per cent) of the reports were –LENTSWELETAU ROADS advised to complainants. These matters involved civil matters and clients were advised to either report to the MR G. S. MANGOLE (MOCHUDI WEST): asked relevant authorities or seek legal advice. the Minister of Transport and Communications to state when Government intends to: Finally, 61 were further reports that are reports that augment ongoing investigations. Out of 279 reports (i) tar the Bokaa-Kopong road given its strategic classified for investigations, 272 were classified as importance of relieving the A1 road and reducing corruption related matters, three as economic crimes, and traffic flow through Gaborone City headed to the four as money laundering cases. During this period, a western parts of Botswana; and total of 20 investigations were completed and forwarded (ii) upgrade the Rasesa–Lentsweletau road to bitumen to the DPP as prosecution files for prosecution. standard given its importance of connecting In relation to the former Director of Directorate Kgatleng and Kweneng Districts. of Intelligence and Security (DIS), DCEC has one ACTING MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND investigation file in relation to him. The file is currently COMMUNICATIONS (MR MOKAILA): It is a good at the DPP. Thank you Madam Speaker. thing that I am answering it. Thank you Madam Speaker. MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. We know the importance of that road Honourable Minister, it seems like there are a lot of cases in your Member because it reduces congestion. Unfortunately, Ministry that you have received, what are your attempts it is not on the National Development Plan (NDP) 11. to speed up these investigations so that the guilty are We also know the importance of the Rasesa- prosecuted? The second question is; do you not think it Lentsweletau, like the other road aforementioned, is time the Government appoints a Judicial Commission we know its importance but it is not in the National that will investigate corruption cases which seem to be Development Plan. Thank you. plenty? You talked about 334 and so forth, do you not think it shows the need to have a Judicial Commission MR MANGOLE: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. which can investigate publicly so that everyone sees that The main issue is, if you know the importance of this corruption is rampant? road, when do you intend to include it in the National Development Plan? The Bokaa road is not long so it MR SHAMUKUNI: Madam Speaker, we do not have does not require a lot of funds, did you not see the need intentions of appointing a judicial commission. Even to maintain it because it does not need to be in the plan though we are thin on the ground, we are doing our as it is important and not expensive? level best to ensure that we process reports as they come so that at the end, they go to DPP. I thank you Madam MR MOKAILA: No Madam Speaker, the Honourable Speaker. Member knows that everything is done according to plan. Priorities are made, NDP 11 was made and that MR MOLEFE: Supplementary. Thank you Madam road was not included. Like I explained, these roads Speaker, thank you Minister. Minister, I want clarity are bypasses so they do not need to be done casually as here, in your report the 2017 cases which you say were we expect them to ease traffic congestion in Gaborone. referred to DPP for prosecution, how many offenders They are important but if we acquire funds, it is one of are already in prison? For 2018, is there anyone who the roads to consider. Like I once told you, we went to has been jailed for corruption? The numbers will soon China and if the funds come and we attend to important increase, what are you doing so that cases are dealt with roads like Francistown/Nata, Nata/Maun, / and offenders are jailed in time? , the funds which we had planned to use for other things will be vired to construct and maintain those MR SHAMUKUNI: Madam Speaker, when we refer roads. Thank you cases to DPP, we do not mean that people should be imprisoned, we mean they should be prosecuted. The UPDATE ON INVESTIGATIONS LINKING prosecution process will now be up to the DCEC not us. THE PERMANENT SECRETARY TO THE We do not have the figures on how many people have PRESIDENT (PSP) WITH MISAPPROPRIATION been imprisoned so far. I thank you Madam Speaker. OF PENSIONERS’ FUNDS

4 Hansard No 193 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR S. M. NTLHAILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Honourable House on the Directorate of Intelligence asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Security (DIS) audit and in particular to: and Public Administration to update this Honourable House on the status of the investigations, which (i) confirm if it was never audited by the Auditor link the Permanent Secretary to the President with General since 2008; misappropriation of pensioners’ funds. (ii) state the reasons for its non-auditing; and ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC (iii) state if it was audited in the last financial year. ADMINISTRATION (MR SHAMUKUNI): Madam ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL Speaker, I can confirm that the Directorate on Corruption AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC and Economic Crime (DCEC) is investigating (BPOPF). ADMINISTRATION (MR SHAMUKUNI): Madam However, details relating to the case cannot be divulged Speaker, the Directorate of Intelligence and Security at this stage. To do such may compromise and also (DIS) was audited in the last financial year and the report have a potential to tarnish the integrity of the whole is being finalised. The audit covered all the financial investigation process. years from inception, that is 2008/2009 to the current Take note that Section 44 of the Corruption and year under the 2017/2018 review, which is a period of Economic Crime Act of 1994, prohibits disclosure of 10 years. The audit is at the finalisation stage as all the information about who is being investigated whilst information for the past 10 years had to be subjected to investigations are still ongoing. I thank you Madam audit review. Speaker. The audit for the financial year ended 31st March 2019 MR NTLHAILE: Supplementary. Minister, I would like you to clarify something here, when do you think has been included in the planned audits for 2019/2020. I this issue is going to be resolved since investigations thank you Madam Speaker. have long started? When do you think you are going to MR RANTUANA: Supplementary. Thank you Madam get to the bottom of it? Speaker. Thank you Honourable Minister. Why did it Secondly, we have noticed that some of the people who take you so long to audit this very important department? were mentioned in the National Petroleum Fund (NPF) saga from across the aisle have been dropped from MR SHAMUKUNI: Madam Speaker, I regret that being Ministers, why is it hard to drop the Permanent it has taken that long. I would like to request the Secretary to the President from his duties if at all he is Honourable Member that we should cast our eyes only mentioned in the misappropriation of Botswana Public into the future and focus on moving forward. I have Officers Pension Fund? He should be suspended or fired to save the integrity of the public service in a democracy. made a determination that going forward, DIS will be Why is it hard to do that if at all the President is serious audited every year. I thank you Madam Speaker. about combating corruption? DELAYS IN PAYMENT OF PENSIONS TO MR SHAMUKUNI: Madam Speaker, it is difficult to RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS put a timeline to an investigation process. The process is long to an extent that I cannot give the Honourable MR D. L. KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE Member a timeline as to when it will be completed. He WEST): asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, has to appreciate that investigations are ongoing. On the Governance and Public Administration to update this second issue, it is difficult for me to answer his question since I am not the appointing authority. I believe that I Honourable House on the number of civil servants who cannot give an answer as to why he is still in the office. have retired from the public service in the last five years I thank you Madam Speaker. and in particular to state:

UPDATE ON THE DIRECTORATE OF (i) the shortest and longest time one had to wait to INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY (DIS) AUDIT receive their one-third of pension and monthly payments; MR D. L. KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs, (ii) what causes the delay in payments of pensions to Governance and Public Administration to update this retirees;

Hansard No 193 5 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(iii) if he is satisfied with the turnaround time for the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION same; and (MR KWEREPE): Thank you Madam Speaker,

(iv) how he is addressing this problem. (i) My ministry is not able to absorb all temporary teachers into permanent positions as some teachers ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL are covering for substantive teachers who may be AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC on leave. This applies to when a teacher is on leave ADMINISTRATION (MR SHAMUKUNI): Madam due to extended sick leave, study leave, maternity Speaker, the number of civil servants who have retired leave or unpaid leave. from the public service in the last five years, up to December 2018 stands at 7 561. (ii) The number of teaching vacancies currently stands at 423 of which 368 have been appointed (i) The shortest time taken for one to receive his or her for and are awaiting assumption of duty. The one-third pension is three months while the longest remaining 55 were recently vacated in March time can take up to 24 months. The payment of 2019. Appointments letters are continuously being monthly pension is dependent on the processing of issued to fill the remaining 55 vacancies. the one-third lump sum payment. MR REATILE: Supplementary. Thank you Madam (ii) There are various causes for the delay in the Speaker, thank you Minister. I do hear your answer payment of pensions to retirees, which are Honourable Minister. Minister back then when both administrative and employee related. Honourable Molale was the Minister for Presidential Administrative delays Madam Speaker, are Affairs, Governance and Public Administration, he caused by among other things; missing pension explained that he was going to employ all the temporary contributions, missing information and personal teachers on permanent basis. Minister, what is the cause files and termination of retiring officers from of the delay because the poor people do not even qualify payroll, because termination facilitates processing to get loans? Why is it difficult to absorb these people? of benefits. Employee related delays includes; vacating institutional pool housing, outstanding MR KWEREPE: Madam Speaker, to absorb these liabilities and failure to comply with tax people is not an event, it is a process, because the other regulations. logistical problem that we face is the combination of their teaching subjects. You cannot take a Setswana teacher to (iii) Madam Speaker, I am not satisfied with the go and teach English at St Josephs for example. There turnaround time for payments of terminal benefits. are a lot of logistical problems, but this matter will be addressed. (iv) Consequently, my ministry constituted a task team in January 2019 comprising the Directorate MR REATILE: Further supplementary. Madam of Public Service Management and Ministry of Speaker, I want the Minister to commit himself in this Finance and Economic Development, Botswana Parliament to say when he is planning to absorb these Public Officers Pensions Fund for purposes of people. When is he going to finish this exercise, since it resolving these challenges. This task team is is not an event, when is the exercise going to end? expected to complete its assignment in September 2019. I thank you Madam Speaker. MR KWEREPE: Madam Speaker, like I said, we cannot give a definite date, when I say it is a process, HIRING TEMPORARY TEACHERS ON I mean it entails other things; staffing and many other PERMANENT BASIS facilities that are needed in a school. I cannot say it is tomorrow, I will not be honest. MR M. I. MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): asked the Minister of Basic Education to state: HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further supplementary.

(i) whether he will not consider hiring all temporary MADAM SPEAKER: Today it is for teachers only. teachers on a permanent basis; and That is the last one.

(ii) the number of teaching vacancies and how many MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Minister, have been filled and the reasons for not filling since you cannot give us a definite time, can you atleast vacancies. just estimate the time that you think you would have

6 Hansard No 193 Tuesday 2nd April 2019 PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2018 (NO. 33 OF 2018) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

hired all of them? Maybe you should also refer to your ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, data base and tell us the number of teachers that you TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR GOYA): Let me have not yet absorbed, how many are they? thank you Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: Estimate Honourable Minister. DR P. BUTALE: Point of order. No, just a quick one, yesterday when we lost quorum, the Honourable MR KWEREPE: Madam Speaker, I understand your Member had yielded and I was holding the floor wanting concerns in the sentiment raised, it is, however not to explain. So I do not know if I should ask again or what possible for me to estimate and say by such and such should happen? a time, because people keep on graduating. So, it is going to take us a bit longer to absorb everyone. It is the MADAM SPEAKER: No, he had yielded and we lost intention anyway, to do that, but that is not something quorum. So allow him because you had yielded. that could happen tomorrow Honourable Member of Parliament. MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MR NGAKA): Point of PRISONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2018 order. Thank you Madam Speaker. I think this House (NO. 33 OF 2018) will be out of order if I do not comment on Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi’s statement because I was in Second Reading yesterday…

(Resumed Debate) MADAM SPEAKER: No, you are taking us back.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Go and sit down MR NGAKA: No, I want him to withdraw that Honorable Tshireletso; I mean you should literally take statement, because we did not go there with Honourable your seat because I am standing up. Honourable Tshire, Kablay. We found him there, he drove there, so we did go back to your seat. not leave him. I therefore request that he withdraws that Order! Order! When the House adjourned yesterday due statement because it is not true. to lack of quorum, Honourable Goya was on the floor, MADAM SPEAKER: No, you were making a and he was left with seven minutes, 40 seconds. correction. Proceed Dr.

MR MMOLOTSI: Point of Procedure. Madam HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. Speaker, yesterday Honourable Kablay attended a meeting with His Honour the Vice President and others MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Members, are we and they were flying. So since Honourable Kablay had going to continue? commented that Honourable Kwerepe is incompetent, MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND His Honour the Vice President was offended by that COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of remark and they decided to leave him there even though they went together there. So since Honourable Kablay is order. Thank you very much Madam Speaker. I know a person living with a disability, we are not quite sure if that since I have been away, this House has not been in he made it back. Madam Speaker, we therefore request order, but this statement… that you find out if the Honourable Member managed to MADAM SPEAKER: You are saying it has been doing return since he was abandoned by the elders. what? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MADAM SPEAKER: No, let us proceed Honourable Members. MS MAKGATO: It has been in order Madam Speaker, moreso that I trust you. The false statement that was HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. uttered by Honourable Mmolotsi at length for that matter about the Vice President; accusing the Vice President HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction. of this republic for leaving behind the Chief Whip of MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Order! No, wait, we will the ruling party, a respectable and Honourable Member see what to do. of Parliament as it is assumed that he made negative

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comments; that is not true. That cannot be a point of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. correction more especially when he was not holding MADAM SPEAKER: Who is calling for point of the floor, he just stood on a point of order and we are order? expected to just leave him. All he wants is headline news… HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is me Madam Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)… MR NGAKA: Point of order. Madam Speaker, I still repeat, I was there with the Vice President and I am MS MAKGATO: No that is not the case. If they think commenting because I was there. The Vice President that Honourable Kablay is not here because he was left myself and Honourable Kwerepe are accused of being by a flying machine, they should submit proof because angry with Honourable Kablay and that is not true. we do not have that evidence. So Madam Speaker The Honourable Member should just withdraw that knowing that he is a favourite; you will just leave him. statement because there is no truth in it. I do not know Thank you very much Madam Speaker. why Honourable Kablay is not here today because when we parted yesterday, he was to drive his car… MADAM SPEAKER: No, just say sorry Honourable Member, say sorry. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

MR MMOLOTSI: No, she should submit proof MR NGAKA: No, he drove there, we did not go there because she is saying Honourable Kablay is here. with him.

MADAM SPEAKER: No, Honourable Kablay is HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… sometimes absent, I mean… MR NGAKA: He did not want to fly back. MR MMOLOTSI: No, Madam Speaker this is a big HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… issue. Send a vehicle to the Constituency to go and bring back Kablay. MR NGAKA: We went there in a helicopter Madam Speaker without Honourable Kablay, he was driving, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… so when we came back, he was supposed to come back with his car. So for him to impute improper motives by MR MMOLOTSI: The Vice President together with insinuating that he was left deliberately is not on Madam Honourable Ngaka Ngaka and Honourable Kwerepe Speaker, so please take action Madam Speaker. were angry with him and they left him there. MADAM SPEAKER: I will reprimand him. Let us MADAM SPEAKER: No, you are out of order. proceed Honourable Members, time is not on our side. Honourable Mmolotsi, now you are offending the Vice President. DR P. BUTALE: Honourable Goya, you were on the right track, I agree with what you were saying… HONOURABLE MEMBER: No they went there on a plane… HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: No, did they tag him along with MADAM SPEAKER: No Honourable Makgato, we them, how do you know? have moved on. Let us proceed. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Point of order. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND MADAM SPEAKER: No, stop with your points of COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): No, I was order. on a point of procedure.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: Which point of procedure? No, I will not allow you to talk about that issue. Proceed MADAM SPEAKER: No, wait, if I have to send a Honourable Member. vehicle there, the Honourable Member will have to call me and make that request. Honourable Members look DR P. BUTALE: You elaborated that you amended that here, you cannot come and play here, you have played Honourable Goya which shows that your Government and it is enough. Let us stop talking about that issue…. listens, perhaps you should correct it to say that they

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take a very long time before they can act. Last time and we have been arguing because it was reported that when this Bill was brought here, we pointed out that he got angry with His Honour the Vice President and you cannot have people retiring at 50 while at the same other Members of Parliament who were with him at time others retire at 62 and are not paid. That is a simple Salajwe are angry with him, which is why he did not amendment which shows that you do hear but take long return. Crooks from the opposition said that, they want to act. to cause a conflict between us. Since Honourable Kablay is here, let him explain … ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR GOYA): Thank you HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order! Madam Speaker, thank you Honourable. I do not believe Point of order! that we take a very long time to act rather, a law cannot be made in a period of two or three days. People have to MADAM SPEAKER: You are escalating it … be consulted first that is why it took a long time for us to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sit down on that point be where we are today. of order.

Madam Speaker, retirement ages for Prisons officers will MS MAKGATO: Hold on, I am still on a point of order, be amended accordingly. I am happy because officers relax. We are not at a freedom square, relax. from Prisons are making sure that this law will not disadvantage them. Madam Speaker, it can be compared HONOURABLE MEMBER: Who are you calling to when one is cooking and they pour salt in their dish “crooks”? Point of order. then somebody shouts from a distance to say “hey, that is enough!”. Someone who will eat that food will be in MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Makgato? a better position to determine if there is too much salt in the food. As such, Prison officers felt there was a need MS MAKGATO: Madam? to amend retirement ages and they are indeed amended. Since we are proposing the retirement age to be 62 and MADAM SPEAKER: It is wrong to call them crooks. we mentioned ages 50, 55, and 60 in the past years, why MS MAKGATO: I called them crooks but I have did we add two years? Why not say 65 years instead of changed, they are Honourable Members. 62 years? If we do not let it start at age 60, let us set it at 65 years instead of 62 years. Minister, even though it MADAM SPEAKER: No, that is where you are wrong. has been amended, on the basis that you understand it better; Honourable Kgathi, let us think in line with the MS MAKGATO: They are Honourable Members. suggested years so that they can all retire at 65 years. It is a proper retirement age. MADAM SPEAKER: Yes, they are Honourable Members. Honourable Kgathi, it is important for us as a Government to prepare retirements packages for Prison MS MAKGATO: They are Honourable Members. I officers because if not, the Government will be required will not call them crooks. Honourable Kablay is here, to provide for them when they are retired and are not it was reported that they got angry with him and that living well. It is indeed necessary for us to prepare their it is not possible for him to come to Parliament and pension Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker… Honourable Keorapetse said that he wants to go and pick him because His Honour the Vice President together HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable Kablay is with Honourable Ngaka Ngaka got angry with him. We here, let him answer. Let us resume where we stopped… had an argument about that. It is necessary for him to HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order, clarify if indeed it is true that he was left behind because Madam Speaker. they were angry with him and he asked for help from Members of the opposition to bring him to Parliament. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable members! We are Otherwise, they should withdraw. running out of time. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)… MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): I know MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Madam. I rise on a point of order. Thank you very much Members! Order! Order! Listen! It is not procedural Madam Speaker. Honourable Kablay is in Parliament for me to call upon Honourable Kablay because he is

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not on the floor. I do not know when that meeting was MADAM SPEAKER: No Honourable Molao, we will held. The bottom line is, even if it was today, he is here. not go back. No! Honourable Goya, proceed. It is not necessary for us to prolong this issue no! You all know how Honourable Mmolotsi is so, let us leave MR GOYA: Thank you Madam Speaker. Let me finish it Honourable Members. Proceed Honourable Member my debate so that we can take these point of orders, because I have closed it. we have many of them and I do not know what their motives are. Madam Speaker, let the Minister stand up MR GOYA: Madam Speaker, as I move on with the for accommodation for Prison officers, we beg you. The amendment for retirements ages of Prison officers, living conditions there are very bad as it is congested Minister elaborated that he is trying to realign them with especially for married couples who have homes and those of the public service and it is important that we kids. If you can go to prisons right now, you will find do not only look at retirements ages only. We must also that they have land and you can acquire funds and make sure that they are in alignment with salaries for build houses for them. All the married couples could other Government employees. get a house for them and their kids there, those who are not married could live in a similar arrangement. Try to The other issue of concern regarding Prison Officers source for funds and build for them Minister. Minister is that many Government employees such as teachers, doctors and nurses do not have proper Minister, I am glad that you managed to increase their accommodation. Minister, you must realise that it is really retirements ages, now consider increasing this figure 62 bad at Prisons because that is where accommodation is to 65 years. I think it must be so because when you say very scarce. That is where you will find married couples someone retires at 62 years, the personnel will determine who have kids, sharing a house. You will be shocked whether they can extend the contract or not. That will be because a married couple will be sharing with another an easy blank cheque where someone may retire at 75 married couple who also have kids. It is not appropriate years. I wish you could make it a standard retirement for them to be living like that. age at 65, it has to stop there. With that said Madam HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order, Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity. Madam Speaker. MR MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): Thank you Madam MR GOYA: The most painful thing is that … Speaker. I support the amendment of the Bill before us. Madam Speaker, there is a season and a time MADAM SPEAKER: Someone said, ‘point of order’. for everything. A law is something which is usually reviewed time and again whenever there is a need that is HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is Honourable Kablay. why we are in this House; to review these kind of issues. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Kablay, please do It will not be wrong for the responsible Minister to bring not take us back to that issue. We will discuss it at the the issues we overlooked in the House next time again General Assembly. so that we review and amend them.

MR KABLAY: I want to take you there, Madam Madam Speaker, we should acknowledge that the prison Speaker. warders have a huge task. There are police officers, who arrest people and conduct investigations. Then there are MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Kablay, I made a law makers like us, judges, all these players carry out decision regarding that issue. their tasks but at the end of the day the person who will MR KABLAY: I thought I should clarify it. continue enduring that task is a prison warder. He/she is the one guarding these delinquents, some are sentenced MADAM SPEAKER: Sit down Whip, just sit down! to life imprisonment, some to a certain number of years Proceed Honourable Goya. You treat this place like a but the Judge will only sit on maybe two hearings and freedom square. Let us proceed. then pass sentencing. We make laws and pass it after a certain period, the police carry out investigations and MR GOYA: Minister, that is the issue which … complete them. So you can see that these are some of HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order, the things we should look into without rushing and see Madam Speaker. how we can improve their conditions of service.

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The issue of retirement age is fine. If you look into these MR TSOGWANE: Okay, I am concluding. disciplined forces including the army we lose a… They were enduring heat thinking they are voting HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure for a Member of Parliament whereas they are voting Madam Speaker. for a clown. So Madam Speaker, perhaps you should reprimand that sort of behaviour going forth. MR MAJAGA: …. lot of money... MR MAJAGA: Thank you Madam Speaker. Madam MADAM SPEAKER: No! No! No! We cannot go Speaker, I was saying if you look at these security back. services or disciplined forces in most cases we lose a HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure lot of money as Government to train them every year. Madam Speaker. If you look at the army for instance; in most cases these aircraft maintenance engineers are trained but when they MADAM SPEAKER: Leader of the House, we cannot reach 47 or 50 they retire. When you look at the fact that go back. we need that experience of which we have to take that into consideration and look at both their experience and HONOURABLE MEMBER: Just a brief procedure age, you will then see that this amendment came in time. Madam Speaker. If there is anything which has been overlooked it will be MADAM SPEAKER: On what? Let me ask you first, amended later on. we have concluded that matter… My colleagues have talked about positioning of salary HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, it is just procedure, scales and at what scale one should retire at and this is it has nothing to do with your issue. You have concluded a welcome development because when we look at the that matter and I do not know how you concluded it. current lifestyle, things are expensive. So it is not right I am simply seeking my own procedure. Procedure that maybe 10 years from now you earn a pension of P2 Madam Speaker. 000 or P3 000 per month, this is literally impoverishing people therefore these are some of the things we must MADAM SPEAKER: Okay let us hear your point but consider looking at the conditions these people work if you get out of order you exit through the same door under. you came in. Proceed. We see in other countries which do not have strong LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): prison services because hardened criminals escape and Procedure. The procedure I seek Madam Speaker is that threaten the stability of that country within a very short I do not want a situation whereby in future when history period of time. So that is why I am saying we must rest is being read someone like you Mma Stompi, whose assure these people so that they know that we appreciate capabilities I know, is in a list of Speakers who refused their value in the nation, country and the task allocated to allow point of procedures… to them and they should be given all that is due to them and ensure that they receive such. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… In the past, when we were amending the BDF Act, we MR TSOGWANE: …saying things which are not true discussed this issue that these people are not civilians in this House but they are now misleading you. I do not they are trained so if we set their retirement age at 45 want you to be in that list Mma Stompi. I was seeking one day we will encounter a situation where we will not procedure regarding the incident I encountered recently have an army to defend us. But then again in light of when I met a person who told me that they are surprised this argument one might say when are the youth going about our House as it is one big joke, and asked if it is to find employment? Madam Speaker, nowadays what indeed true. I responded by saying that I do not believe it can be a House of jokes, as we have sent responsible matters most is experience. When it comes to Diploma, people. People of Francistown were sweating due to the Degree, Masters and Doctorate Degree (PhD), everyone scorching sun when they went to… has those qualifications in this era. Others pursue them part-time so we must value experience more as it is MADAM SPEAKER: Leader of the House, be brief. something which can move the country forth.

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One of the issue I once raised and will do so again today Parliament, we can inform the Minister that this one has more so that the Minister is here is that in a country like not been tackled; and he would address it as he did with Botswana, I am still requesting that we should not at the previous one that we were not happy about. This this juncture be hiring premises because we do not own one is a step forward. We cannot say we should wait a Government Prison Headquarters. I once implored that moment. When we wait, tomorrow someone will retire we should also include Ministry of Defence, Justice and at 50 years, the other at 45 years. If we are going to Security, and just approve P400 million to build defence halt this Bill, you will hear someone saying, “Last time headquarters in a secluded area rather than having those in Parliament you were debating a Bill that is vital to headquarters in a mall area. I have talked about this issue people’s lives, and since the Bill was not passed some a lot including Ministry of Land Management, Water suffered strokes because they were eyeing something and Sanitation Services. These are the things which that they should benefit from.” So that is why Iwas are very critical and important. Honourable Minister saying, this one is a good move as a start, because as as this Parliament since you will hand over the reins to years go by, there would be something that would be others, they will have to put it in the pipeline quickly for due to them. amendment. MADAM SPEAKER: Time up! HONOURBLE MEMBER: He is leaving? Where is MR SALAKAE (GHANZI NORTH): Thank you he going? Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, in this Bill we are MR MAJAGA: Where did I say he was going? A asking for two things or the Minister is asking for different person might be appointed, it is something only two things from us, that as Parliament can we not which changes or one can write an interview to be increase the age of retirement for an officer working for appointed to that position. That is why I am saying we the Prisons Department. have to review such issues as a republic. It has been 55 Someone would expect the white paper that I am holding years since we gained Independence and this Ministry here, which we were given by Honourable Kgathi to of Defence, Justice and Security which includes police make us understand the motivation behind the Bill; service should own Government buildings including what is the mischief that Parliament is trying to remedy? these other ministries like Investment, Trade and I am not getting anything from this paper because the Industry; I can agree it is so critical. first question was supposed to be answered, why it says 62 years, not 63, 64 or 65? That is my first point. Moving on Madam Speaker, this issue of pensions causes conflicts in many other spectra as well, it does My second point is that the BDP (Domkrag) or the not only occur at Prisons or Ministry of Defence, Justice leadership of the BDP (Domkrag) in Parliament is hard and Security. It should be reviewed Madam Speaker and of hearing. We were hear in 2017, trying to give the amended so that all public servants not only prisons or guidance that they are now bringing. Just a year and a defence employees are not forced to retire. They can half or so later, they are coming here to say, “You were retire because there is an attraction of pension which right. We have just realised that we should have done was an investment during years of service and it is things this way.” Now the question is, going forward, protected. It should also be something which is tangible if we are going to address issues in this piecemeal and attractive so that even if you meet a retired person at approach, are we going to manage to execute our , Nata or Gweta you would see that this man mandate as Parliament? was a Superintendent or a Commander of Prisons. He is still alive and kicking, he attends Kgotla meetings in First of all, someone can ask whether the main intention his own vehicle to show that this republic takes care of of the BDP (Domkrag) is to try to encourage people its people. If the Government can only take care of them to retire early or do they desire to see people being during their years of service but after they retire they impoverished at work? As you might be aware one of are overlooked, then know that something is not being the points here is that they are saying they have noticed done right. So these are the issues we have to present that they were “embarrassing” themselves by paying in this House and discuss them freely. If there is any people menial wages. If a Warder retires at 50 or 55 issue we overlooked, we can amend it through a Private years, they are ashamed because someone is going to Member’s Bill, there is a way in which as Members of end up earning one point something Pula, as a way

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of thanking them for a job well done as a Warder. So responsibility of addressing his issues and advocating someone can ask themselves that as Botswana, being for people at the Prisons department, if at all he has any praised so much for peace and all these other things, do valid point. Are you afraid of putting it across or did I we wish for someone to work for 62 years and then we not get what you were saying? later thank them with P1 200 in the two years after which they might depart this world. I was hoping the idea that HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… I sometimes hear being said on budgets; hearing from MS MAKGATO: No, you were saying you are “afraid” outside that there should be early retirement, it should of talking because when you talk about salaries it might apply, and we should increase people’s salaries. We lead to something; what are you afraid of? What can you should not be ashamed because we have the authority to be afraid of as a leader of people? adjust those salaries. MR SALAKAE: Thank you Madam Minister. My main My third point Madam Speaker is that if we increase point is that I do understand Madam Speaker that one of the age to 62 for a Warder, we should review their terms the things we need to look into as Parliament, as a way of service as well; and ask ourselves if they would be of addressing this Bill, is that some might be reaching able to execute their duties at 62 years. When I made 50 years tomorrow. The Botswana Democratic Party an enquiry, Dr Madigele, one of their main duties is to (BDP) Government is saying, “Good people; remove us guard the buildings, sitting by the entrance, and ensuring from the shame that we are in whereby people are going that thieves do not break in. Now think of someone who to retire with menial pensions.” That would then put us is 62 years old; and you say they should go and sit by the under pressure that in the interim, we should agree with that; but the main issue is that their salaries should be entrance and guard the dangerous people who are well increased so that when they retire, they would be like known to Honourable Kgathi. I was suggesting that we Honourable Arone and I. It should show that they were should ensure that we increase the salaries. This is an serving this country, considering their salaries. When issue that I have even touched on Madam Speaker when we say we are increasing to 62 years, have we applied I responded to the State of the Nation Address, that the our minds or we are still going to come here again and idea of leaning on the economic growth as opposed say, “when we said we are implementing, we noticed to economic development, developing a person; as something.” So personally if I am going to support practiced by the BDP (Domkrag) Government; at the this Bill, I will do so if we are going to come back to end of the day it will embarrass us. If we had a plan, consider issues of salaries Honourable Kgathi, because our interest should be developing a Motswana; hence, this is not enough. Are you saying that between now and we would not have been embarrassed by now; our aim someone reaching 62 years, we should just sit back and is just to increase the years so that the pension accrued not employ anyone at prisons because we are waiting would grow because they are earning a low salary. Just for people to reach 62 years? Why can we not encourage people to leave early by giving them better salaries or look at this; we are forced to agree with them, because we should give them incentives, so that the many young we are afraid that person who works for the Prisons people who are roaming about in possession of skills Services, if we do not support this Bill to consider their would be employed. Why are you having contradicted, salaries, when they retire tomorrow, they are going to conflicting strategies as the same Government? go home… My other point that I wish Batswana could notice is that HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… the reason why we keep coming back here with issues MR SALAKAE: Those officers at Prisons…Thank you that we could have ironed out from the beginning is that very much. you are clear as a Government as to what your intentions are. I asked here during the Budget Speech that between MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND economic development and economic growth, what COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): On a is your priority? The priority is to increase the riches point of clarification. Thank you Madam Speaker. I just as the economic growth has pointed out. Honourable want to find out if I am following what the Honourable Tshireletso we can compare this to a rich man whom Member is saying; he was sent by the electorates in when he gets to a bar, people would ululate but when he Gantsi to come here, but he is saying he is “afraid” of the gets home hunger and poverty would be waiting for him

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by the door. Let us do something to show that we are a others. I do not understand why we are saying a lot of rich country, our economic growth shows that we are things; we are not focused on the Bill, we are focused rich hence we should take care of our employees. on our personal and political interests. We believe if we say this, the voters will listen. The horses have bolted; We were here Honourable Kgathi, and I wish when you we are where we are today… rise to respond, you would tell us why back then you refused that we consider the retirement age of 50. Was it MR SALAKAE: Clarification. Thank you Madam because the Motion was from an opposition Member or Speaker. I was asking Madam Minister that as you what? Going forward, let us agree that we are together increase the age, are you considering if the person will in developing our country, if at all you refuse counsel cope with the job at that age? from opposition party Members. MS MAKGATO: What would make them fail while On that note, I am a bit hesitant to support this Bill, but others are managing? What kind of people are they, because this is a tactic, an interim measure, we deal have they bewitched someone? Really, as far as I am with people who are hard of hearing, having been given concerned Madam Speaker there is no issue here. power by Batswana yet knowing very well that you are Parliament cannot be like a baboon; when a baboon sees hard of hearing; we shall keep taking you step by step, some corn, it gathers it and puts it under the armpit, as it that if you agree with this one, we will tackle the next travels, it loses that corn to pick new corn thinking it is one next time. Honestly, this is an issue that we would putting it in the sack. If one of the issues that have been have long dealt with. This is an issue whose merits are bothering us about Prisons is the retirement age and we not difficult to understand. This is an issue which to be are aligning it with that of other professions, what is the honest… problem with doing that whilst considering other things like salaries? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)... Now today when we are faced with a simple issue which MR SALAKAE: Honourable Kgathi, increase prison no one in Parliament can be against…, we have said we staff salaries so that even if they were to retire at the want to pride ourselves as this Parliament of today that age of 55, they would have accumulated a reasonable is full of youth, to be a very efficient and productive pension amount. Now, because you refuse to increase Parliament. It will be heard that we spent two weeks their salaries, I agree that “Yes” we can increase their discussing that Prisons staff retirement age should be retirement age but that is not the main issue. The issue is increased and nothing else, that on its own would…, I their salary so that they retire early and we hire others. therefore move in terms of Standing Order 55.1 Madam That is the issue I am focusing on. Thank you Madam Speaker, which says when we all agree with no one Speaker. opposing, are you as the Speaker going to withstand us mocking one another; being an issue of how much MADAM SPEAKER: Let us hear a mother’s opinion. Chilly can mock Dorcus, how Wynter Mmolotsi can MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND insist that the President did not give Honourable Kablay COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Thank a lift. With Kablay being here saying that it was not like you very much Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, thank that… you very much for those kind words, I am indeed a MADAM SPEAKER: No, you are out of topic now. mother. It would be surprising if I did not stand up in this Parliament when we have heard complaints from MS MAKGATO: Then it is like… our Prisons staff talking about retirement issues where they were side-lined, it became an issue we worked on MADAM SPEAKER: I mean you are talking about together as the Leaders in Parliament together with the something else. opposition. Today I cannot stand here and deny them MS MAKGATO: I was introducing… trying to score a point by asking who brought the issue, it would be embarrassing. Practically I really do not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. care who came with the idea. What matters is being here today. What we are saying today is let us increase the MS MAKGATO: But let me get back to the issue that I retirement age for the staff so that they are the same as move in terms of Standing Order 55.1…

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. HONOURABLE MEMBER: No, he was alone this side. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MADAM SPEAKER: Yes, two this side so let us do it HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Madam and get it done. If you could take five minutes because Speaker. like she has said, this is an issue which we all agree on. I MS MAKGATO: That we have discussed this issue can still stand and truncate so let us debate briefly. and there is no one opposing it. I move accordingly MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Madam Speaker. Let me take this time Madam Speaker to welcome HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. Honourable Kablay for having arrived here. I believe he arrived well and I will not get into the issue that he knows MADAM SPEAKER: No, look, I do not know what the because he knows it. So Madam Speaker, I wanted to noise is about because you have not heard me agreeing explain this that it is the truth, this Parliament… with the Minister, she is still talking… MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND MS MAKGATO: I am still talking and they are saying COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point elucidation. of order. Madam Speaker, we have been talking in Parliament about an issue which was alleged by MADAM SPEAKER: Yes you are speaking. Proceed. Honourable Mmolotsi, and you said it should end. He is MS MAKGATO: Someone wants to elucidate; I yield bringing it up again thinking he is intelligent saying this for elucidation Madam Speaker. issue is known by Honourable Kablay, he is welcoming him which is contrary to what he said to this House. So I MR KABLAY: Thank you Madam Speaker. I was do not know if he means that Honourable Kablay knows saying I keep hearing the name Kablay being mentioned something we are not aware of because what we know concerning some transport issue. Let me clarify Madam is what was said in Parliament and what he said. So he Speaker that, as the Minister indicated, what is being is out of order. He must withdraw that. said is not true. I was not left anywhere by a helicopter. I MADAM SPEAKER: No, Honourable Mmolotsi went with a car that you authorised to take me to Salajwe leave that issue; leave it alone. Madam Speaker and it brought me back yesterday; it was authorised by Clerk. So I mean I did not go with…. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure.

MADAM SPEAKER: No, I agree with you, it is okay. MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Order! Leave it alone. Withdraw and talk about what we are discussing. MR KABLAY: Yes ma’am. MR MMOLOTSI: I have dropped the issue Madam MADAM SPEAKER: We agreed Honourable Kablay. Speaker. Proceed Minister. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure. MS MAKGATO: I therefore Madam Speaker, due to the fact that it is my right to do so, I want to move in MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi! Look, terms of Standing Order 55.1 to truncate the debate on you do not play in Parliament, you hear me? You know the basis that so far everybody that has spoken agrees. where to play so withdraw and they should not stop the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of procedure clock because you are wasting time. Madam Speaker. MR MMOLOTSI: I withdraw. Madam Speaker, I MS MAKGATO: There is no one opposing. I move agree with the proposed amendment. accordingly Madam Speaker. MR SALAKAE: Point of procedure. No, I am now MADAM SPEAKER: No, you know what, I have seen getting lost Madam Speaker because when Honourable that people are not many, only one person stood up from Makgato stands up and argues you do nothing. I thought this side being Honourable Molefe, I do not know if this Honourable Mmolotsi is on the floor, just before him side they were two. you allowed Honourable Kablay to talk about the issue

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yet he was not on the floor, he did not stand to argue as here today, we could be doing exceptionally well but he could. Honourable Mmolotsi is on the floor, he makes now we are here again. These are the things I am always a small comment and you say that issue has long been talking about here. You keep on changing things over reprimanded yet you allowed the Chief Whip to clarify and over again. So, we do not want to seem like people even though you had closed the matter. So we cannot who do not know what they want. Today we take two have Honourable Makgato arguing and she seems to be steps forward, the following day we take three steps saying something you agree with. backwards. Minister, let us try and be firm when we MADAM SPEAKER: No, Honourable Salakae sit make our laws. down. Honourable Mmolotsi proceed. We could have long completed the issue of moving MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you Madam Speaker. I the retirement age to 62 last time because it was one believe Honourable Makgato will leave me to advocate of the proposals which were made. It comes as a shock for Prisons workers who come from far not being paid that Dorcas Makgato who was against the proposal last properly; their things are not in order. I should show that time is now being angry when we say that this proposal before I support Honourable Kgathi, I have long said I do could have long been acknowledged last time. We are not agree with the fact that Prisons officers, Police and not going to work according to the way Honourable Botswana Defence Force (BDF) officers are not treated Makgato wants us to work. equally. That is why even in the past, I have shown that MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND I believe the Commander for Botswana Defence Force, COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of Commissioner for Police and Commissioner for Prisons order. I would like to request Honourable Mmolotsi are supposed to be in one scale. If you take the people not to tarnish my name, he should bring forward the at the bottom; police constables, prison warden and Hansard and quote what I was angry about; he should privates, these people are supposed to be in the same not invent while standing up without knowing what to level. That is my belief because their qualifications are say to me because I was shouting at him for imputing the same, maybe that is why it is possible for you to improper motives on Honourable Kablay who rescued take someone from Botswana Defence Force (BDF) and himself from the situation. He cannot stand here and say appoint him as the Commissioner of Prisons. In fact, I that I was shouting, what was I shouting for? I am not have said this before, I find it wrong that you can appoint mad. someone else from the army to be the Commissioner MADAM SPEAKER: What did you say she was angry at Prisons instead of promoting officers at Prisons about? who have been progressing from different scales. I believe that we have never had a scenario whereby a MR MMOLOTSI: Madam Speaker you can even see person from Prisons was appointed the Commander of that she is now quarrelling, we are now starting to think Botswana Defence Force and or a Police Commissioner. that she was fueled by quarrel. We should give the Prisons department all the respect it MADAM SPEAKER: That is how she talks. deserves because it has professionals just like BDF and Police. That is why I am saying, as the government, MR MMOLOTSI: Her composition and or the way she we have to make sure that officers at the lowest ranks is, she is someone who is always quarrelling. If it was are paid equal salaries. That is to say, let us give an somewhere else, we could be saying she is quarrelsome. equal reward to Constables, Prison Warders and those who are starting to work at BDF. Let us move scales MADAM SPEAKER: No! No! Honourable Mmolotsi! of Prison Commissioners and Police Commissioners to an equal position. Minister I am emphasising this point HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … so that we can be able to amend these procedures when MR MMOLOTSI: Yes Madam! you present the Bills next time. I wanted to quickly go over that point before supporting the idea to extend the MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi! retirement age like you propose. MR MMOLOTSI: Madam Speaker! Minister, this should be the last time we are moving in circles because you know very well that you rejected MADAM SPEAKER: Address your fellow Honourable this Motion when the Bill was here. We could not be Member with respect. You are wasting time.

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MR MMOLOTSI: Yes. I mean that she is always to consider their conditions of service. Look at their angry Madam Speaker. I believe that she will get better. job content. Sometimes Members of Parliament ask Madam Speaker… for salary increment looking at the content of their jobs and not their qualifications. If you suspect that MS MAKGATO: Point of order. Madam Speaker, this guy is not going to get away with what he is saying if he prisons officers do have attractive qualifications, let us thinks that he will just speak such things in Parliament. look at the content of their jobs and remunerate them appropriately looking at their duties. These people are HONOURABLE MEMBER: What things? upholding our jobs immensely. Their lives are in danger MS MAKGATO: Deceitful things. Honourable every day. They never know whether they will make it Mmolotsi should speak, I do not have a problem with through the day. him saying that I was quarrelling because I sometimes Minister, I do not know how true it is but I once heard do that. I admit that. He cannot just rise and say he heard that you are unable to secure executioners and or people me arguing about the Prisons Bill, things that are done who execute accused persons who have been sentenced here are being done because Dorcas Makgato… calling to death and as such you assign the job to the prison me by name without providing concrete evidence. So, warders. Minister, I do not believe that when Prison he must withdraw that or tell us what debate we were Warders were employed, they were informed that one of having about Prisons that resulted in me quarrelling and the duties they will be forced to perform at some point the Hansard is there to prove it. When he is chatting is execute criminals. If it is like that, I would like to and entertaining Parliament, I suspected that he must be request that we remove that duty from Prison Warders missing me, in fact he can see that I am wearing their so that their main focus will be to guard prisoners. They party colours so he should just say so. should not be put in traumatizing situations of being the HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… hangmen. I believe that the poor people are traumatised. Minister, you have to attest to this if at all it is the truth. MADAM SPEAKER: …(Laughter!) … Hey! If it is true, let us not give these people duties that they HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… did not apply for. Go around and look for people who can be hangmen and leave Prison warders alone because MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi … they did not apply for that job. If you consider it to be (Laughter!) … Withdraw the statement that she is a simple duty as their Minister, maybe you should also quarrelling. She is not. change your duties and go and execute criminals. Lead by example, go and perform that duty so that we can see MR MMOLOTSI: Yes, if something that Honourable if you will survive it. In fact, when one looks at you all Makgato… they see is a serial killer. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi! HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … MR MMOLOTSI: Pardon! MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you Madam Speaker. I MADAM SPEAKER: Withdraw that statement and... support Minister Kgathi that he should extend… (Interruption)… MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi! … MR MMOLOTSI: Yes, I will withdraw that statement (Laughter!) … since the Honourable Member does not agree with it. I MR MMOLOTSI: …retirement age… believe that she knows what she said during that time. MADAM SPEAKER: No! Hey! Hey! Hey! Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to ask Honourable Kgathi to take care of the Prisons MR MMOLOTSI: … of Prison officers. officers. Their conditions of service are not appealing. They are working under extreme danger, they stay for MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi! Hey! years with criminals who just pass through the police HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… for a short period of time. They stay with dangerous criminals. Their jobs are very sensitive so we have HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

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MADAM SPEAKER: No! No! He is out of order. should also be amended. I do not support the second Honourable Molefe! part of the Bill which talks about doing away with the staggered retirement age. Madam Speaker, the reason HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. why I do not support it is due to the following reasons, MADAM SPEAKER: No, I have moved away from it. when we repeal Section 19, we should also consider You delayed. the charter of duty for Prison Officers. So that in the future we do not find ourselves in situations whereby HONOURABLE MEMBER: No! our Prisons service is an institution of retirees, 50 per cent of Prisons Service full being the elderly who use MADAM SPEAKER: You delayed, I reprimanded walking sticks. him. We should pay attention to the first point of proficiency; HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… just like other Honourable Members were saying; their HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. work is special. They are therefore supposed to be diligent at all times, and we should always bear that in MADAM SPEAKER: No! You were reluctant when I mind. tried to reprimand him. No! The other point is that as we make amendments, at the HONOURABLE MEMBER: No! I did not say that. end of the day our Prisons Service should be a young and active Prisons Department not of retirees. The HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Commissioner has the manpower ceiling; he does not MADAM SPEAKER: Pardon! hire every year. Some people decide not to retire, they just work until they reach 60 years. Madam Speaker this HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)… is why I am saying I do not agree that we should take out the arrangement in Section of staggered retirement MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND age. I suggest that the staggered retirement ages must SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Point of order. Madam be maintained. Most people attest to the fact that at the Speaker, this is going to be in the Hansard, when it is read… age of 50 years, some people are still active to an extent that they can run and do their work efficiently. Atleast HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… you can increase for the Wardens up to Superintendent with five years so that it becomes 55. For the Senior HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are going to be named a serial killer. He said that you look like a killer. Superintendent, it should be increased from 55 years to 60 years. The Commissioner and his Deputy should MR KGATHI: What does Raboko mean? remain at 65 years as it was said by Honourable Goya. If we can leave out the staggered retirement ages, Prisons HONOURABLE MEMBER: Raboko is person who Service will be active and people will start retiring, kills people. the active ones shall remain Madam Speaker. If the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … responsibility of a 60-year-old Sergeant is to be in charge of the station, that age is too high; at 8’ o’clock he would MR KGATHI: Madam Speaker, I would like to make want to retire to bed. If he is in charge of supervising the a request. Why did he not point at Kgoroba instead of prisons, he has to rest and that is something that we do me? I request. not wish for in the Prisons Service.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … The other reason why I am saying these ages should be MADAM SPEAKER: …(Laughter!) … Hey! staggered, is that just like other disciplined forces; there Honourable Molefe! …(Laughter!) … is a lot of money that is spent at Prisons, Defence Force and the Police Service to train a person throughout his MR MOLEFE (MAHALAPYE WEST): Thank you active service. So if they are to be increased with five Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I stand in support years, that will help the Commissioner and the Prisons of this Motion that Section 19 of this Prisons Act be service to match the new officers. Madam Speaker repealed. Madam Speaker, if it could be repealed, it this is why I am saying, the staggered retirement ages

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should be maintained. As it has been suggested by other should not limit the Commissioner when it comes to the Honourable Members, the Minister should come back extension period because that would be mistake number to this House and ask for a review of their pay structure 1. We cannot give him a blank cheque and allow him because they are doing a hectic job of monitoring the to go and do as he pleases. Madam Speaker, atleast if prisoners. They do not only monitor them; they also there was a committee that is responsible for assessing rehabilitate them. whether the officer is fit enough to continue working, then it would be better. MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: On a point of clarification. Thank you Honourable Member. Can you clarify this, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... one of the duties of a Warder is guard of honour, drills and patrol, so do you want to tell me that a 62-year- MR REATILE: It is on page six of Honourable Kgathi’s old like Honorable Mabeo can do guard of honour or submission. Honourable Molatlhegi? MR MOLEBATSI: On a point of clarification. Thank MADAM SPEAKER: …(Laughter!) … Who said you Madam Speaker, you too Honourable Member. I Honourable Molatlhegi is 62 years? Proceed Honourable want to understand what a blanket cheque is? Molefe. MADAM SPEAKER: You are back.

MR MOLEFE: Thank you Madam Speaker. MR REATILE: Madam Speaker, I would suggest that Honourable, when talking about 60 years, I ask that this the Honourable Minister look into these points very age should not be umbrella. I agree with you, you cannot well. We should see to it that we respect this department have a Warder who is 60 years old, that is an elderly. Honourable Minister and put it at the same level with When a Warder reaches 60 years, at some point his the Defence force and the Police Service. We should activeness should deteriorate. The Constitution however not treat them as if they are security officers rather gives the Commissioner the power to recommend early be mindful of the fact that these people rehabilitate, retirement for that person if his efficiency starts to counsel, train and do other duties that you can think of deteriorate. Madam Speaker this is why I am suggesting that are done for the prisoners who went there knowing that these ages should be staggered, they can only be nothing. Some of them had a chance to further their increased with five years. However, when increasing, studies at prison. we should consider the type of job that the officer is doing. As it was stated by Honourable Mmolotsi, some We must understand that prison officers, Mr Minister, officers rehabilitate. Sometimes if you say a 60-year-old they have changed the lives of many people. As you all should go and guard an active 25-year-old prisoner who know that from the Bible, people like Joseph who went killed a person, for him to be sent back to the society he to prison in Egypt were taken care of by prison officers. will have to be rehabilitated first. Madam Speaker that is Nowadays, we have Presidents who went to prison a very easy job that needs a skill, and it is important that before. They are also cared for by prison officers. As the person who will be responsible for Prison Service such, we must make sure that … cadre should be mentally and physically active at all HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… times. With those words Madam Speaker, I support the Bill with the corrections that I am suggesting. MR REATILE: Mr Mandela went to prison, do you not know that? As such, we must make sure that … MR REATILE (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Madam Professor Lula da Silva also went to prison. He went Speaker, I thank you for having given me the opportunity there many times in Brazil that is why he became a very to comment on the Bill that was tabled by the Honourable popular President at Brazil. Minister. I also feel I have to share a few ideas with the Honourable Minister which he should take a food for HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… thought regarding his ministry. The issue that I want him to look into Madam Speaker, is with regards to his MR REATILE: the thing is; even if His Excellency request that Parliament should give the Commissioner Mr Masisi will go to prison, you will go before him. powers to extend the retirement age of officers aged Madam Speaker, we must make sure that we do the right 62 who have applied for an extension, if he feels the thing for prison officers. Let it not be like we did them a officer is fit enough to continue working, and that we favour when we allowed them work at prison. We know

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very well that it is their right and as such, we must pay would have oppressed them and they decided to resign them accordingly. It should not be like they came when as Sergeants. That alone as they would have got a chance everything was finished and decided to give them some to serve as Lance Corporal, Corporal or Sergeant they crumbs as a result. would have managed to progress. Let us also amend for prisons Honourable Kgathi so that these people can Honourable Minister, other issues indicate that indeed see that Parliament is always serious when they address we are not treating this Department fairly and as such, their issues, not where it seems like things are taken for let us stand up and make sure that we do what is required granted. for them. Make sure that you create accommodation for them. We must not let them suffer for ever. Their salary is We are talking about the lives of people who are insufficient and they do not have proper accommodation suffering, they are just like Members of Parliament on the other hand. No one can be pleased with these because they are going through the same thing. They are working conditions. our twins looking at how they are treated. That is why I get really worried when I talk about the lives of prison Minister, do something so that one day we will be officers Honourable Kgathi because they have not been able to remember that, when Honourable Kgathi was taken care of although they have been serving for many a Minister responsible for the Department of Prisons, years. So, make sure that you bring about changes. I he made serious changes for people who work in this know and trust you. You have been boasting since you Department. We must remember you Honourable Kgathi worked at Sports or anywhere else now, boast about so, you must leave a mark by fighting for prison officers prisons today. Madam Speaker, thank you. so that they can live well like other Batswana. I wish you could take that seriously Honourable Kgathi. Create a DR MMATLI (MOLEPOLOLE SOUTH): Thank name for yourself because you can see that these people you Madam Speaker. I wonder what I will say to have been here for many years, show us how much they Molepolole youth if I were to support this amendment, value this country. It is time for you to stand up and fight I had a meeting with them at a workshop for Youth Empowerment at Molepolole on the 28th for them Honourable because Parliament supports you , last week Thursday. They told me that as youth, they are troubled in fighting for them accordingly. Please make sure that by unemployment. They said that as Molepolole youth, their situation is improved. they completed their studies; Form 5, university; As I round up Madam Speaker, I do not want to spend Diploma, Degree and do not get jobs but stay home. They more time, Honourable Kgathi must make sure that the assembled at Institute of Health Sciences (IHS) because issue of progression for prison officers is well known. It I called them and taught them ways that they can survive is well known in the public service that an officer cannot through. They asked me to come to Parliament and ask you to encourage elderly people to retire so that they remain at C1 or C4 for many years, according to the can find jobs. These programmes which are given to the public service Act they have to progress. As for them, youth are failing because they do not have experience. one can be a warder until they reach age 62, and then They do not have money to start these businesses or to they ask the Commissioner to allow them to continue support themselves in their businesses. If elders can be working as they are still fit and their children are still encouraged to retire well on time, while they are still in at school. The Commissioner will then increase the good health, they can create spaces for the youth to be retirement years until they reach age 65. That is wrong absorbed. Now this amendment which says … Honourable Kgathi, let us amend this law and specify how long a person can work as a Warder, then progress MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND as a Sergeant in your Department. Unlike the case today SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Thank you Honourable. where one can start working as a Warder for 42 years, The thing is, leadership is a very sensitive issue because without any progression. That will be a curse which I do one has to face competing needs from both sides. I not want to associate with if at all we agree that there remember that there is a very big Prison Centre at should not be any progression at prisons. Molepolole which employed elders. Are you saying that you and I, because when I consulted them they told me Last time we amended the law for Botswana Defence to go and ask on their behalf, are you saying that we Force (BDF) here, we agreed that no one must retire as must go back to Molepolole Prison and tell them that a Private. We believe that if everyone works hard they no, our priority is like this? Just tell me how we should usually go … members like Honourable Mokgware handle it.

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DR MMATLI: Listen to me closely Honourable MR SPEAKER: Who gave you the floor? Minister, you will understand how you should handle it. The issue is all elderly people not prison officers MS TSHIRELETSO: Oh, I was not given the floor! alone… MR SPEAKER: No, I did not.

MADAM SPEAKER: We do not have a quorum, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … Doctor. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmatli, I was asking …Silence… who Kgathi is?

“EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” DR MMATLI: No, Honourable Tshireletso cannot say MR SPEAKER (MR MOLATLHEGI): Order! that while she is still serving Parliament at the age of 72, Honourable Kablay, we are still running short with one I am still quiet young… member. Honourable Mmatli, Proceed. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmatli…

DR MMATLI: Thank you Mr Speaker. They youth are HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. suggesting that elders be encouraged to retire early, they must get packages so that they can retire and venture MR SPEAKER: No, I heard you saying point of order, into businesses. It must be done in such a way that the I will call you if I want, keep quiet first. Honourable youth get funds to start businesses, certain percentage Mmatli, which Kgathi are you referring to? of that money could be given to the elders. I mean those DR MMATLI: No, I was just giving an example youths who are saying that this money must be given Honourable Speaker. I am referring to Honourable to elderly people so that they can start businesses and Kgathi who is sitting in front of me or even Honourable make way for youth to get employed. Makgato. If they are to be arrested right now and sent to prison they are going to be rehabilitated. So just If you look at Clause 2, it says that if the Commissioner imagine… of Prisons Department feels the need to increase retirement age for a particular person, he/she must MS TSHIRELETSO: Point of order. When I say you do so. This disadvantages the youth who are waiting are out of order, it has nothing to do with training either for some people to retire. This does not only occur in the young or elder officers, it is about retirement. You this department, it occurs throughout the entire public are repeating what other members have already alluded service, where retired officers are offered extended to, you are starting to get embarrassed, I am retiring contracts while the youth are out there waiting for their and giving the younger generation an opportunity. He first appointments. That is what they told me to say. is way older than Morwaeng and Shima but he is still contending. So, there is nothing wrong with the age set One thing I do not understand is that how come a for retirement regarding Prisons employees, they are the warder retires at 62 years but will still be at a low scale, ones who are wrong because they are old but are still it means something is wrong. The issue of promotion active in politics. What is wrong because it is the same and progression should be looked into. Honourable issue? Members we should know that Prisons employees are MR SPEAKER: No, he is not out of order Honourable doing a lot of work for example right now if Kgathi Tshireletso, this is the election period, everyone can is arrested and goes to prison, those employees are say… expected to rehabilitate him… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmatli, order! Who is Kgathi? MR SPEAKER: Proceed with your debate Honourable Mmatli. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT DR MMATLI: No, Honourable Tshireletso should not (MS TSHIRELETSO): Point of order. He is completely be the one saying that because she is the oldest member out of order, right now he cannot step down and allow in this Parliament. She is still holding on at 72 years but Morwaeng or even Shima Monageng… has the audacity to talk about us.

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MS TSHIRELETSO: Point order. No, you will put on MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR record the correct age, I am retiring and quiet happy. I MADIGELE): Point of procedure. Thank you very am 65 years old, so I am retiring at the retirement age. much Mr Speaker. I would like to advise him that he Most former members retired at 70 years or more. I am should move through Standing Order 55.1 to truncate. retiring early because in this political game you become smarter at this age. So he is attacking Prisons employees HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... that they should retire whilst he is contending against MR SPEAKER: Okay sir, he has heard you. Shima. He is an old man. DR MMATLI: Conditions of service for these officers HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... are bad, their job is dangerous. They rehabilitate ex- DR MMATLI: The suggestion the Minister presented convicts, people we are afraid of and they have to live that warders should retire after accumulating a with them. I think they also have to attend counselling reasonable pension can be done through other ways sessions, not pre-counselling for capital punishment rather than increasing the retirement age. The major that one is not a priority but the fact that they are doing thing we should look into is salaries. Why can we not… a difficult job, they have to guard the most dangerous criminals. These people are working under very harsh MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND conditions but with little pay. COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I think the Honourable Member The Honourable Members have been talking about a is entitled to give as many examples as he wishes, and task to hang the condemned people and I was not even he can cite as many people, but if he wants to give aware that it is being carried out by prison Officers. examples of people who might go to prison he should You cannot say that we are repeating it because we will never ever use me as an example. He should cite himself talk about it until this practice comes to an end, these instead. I do not want to go to prison, I am not meant people applied to guard the prisoners and they are being for such. made to kill people when they get there. I think that the MR SPEAKER: Okay, Honourable Mmatli, when responsible Minister should go and carry out this task, it you give examples please do not use Members of should not be done by people who did not apply for it. Parliament… MR LELATISITSWE: Point of clarification. I hear HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... you Honourable Member. Do you agree with the previous Minister who said that this task will suit him? MR SPEAKER: Do not cite Members of Parliament as an example, find another example Honourable. DR MMATLI: You want me to be told to withdraw my statement, I might have my suspicions but I am afraid to HONOURABLE MEMBER: But it is just fine. say so. This issue…

MR SPEAKER: No, it is not fine. Proceed Honourable MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR Mmatli and conclude. MADIGELE): Point of order. Mr Speaker, I agree that Honourable Kgathi has a composition of a rebel and DR MMATLI: Mr Speaker, I was indicating that or he looks like a strong person but the Honourable there are other means to generate more money for the Member should not say that he looks like he can kill pension fund for instance, increasing salaries. It shows people. that salaries are low such that when an employee is supposed to retire, there are still suggestions to increase MR SPEAKER: No, you have also emphasised that their pension by extending the retirement age. So why point. not increase employee’s pension by increasing salary. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... Mr Speaker, the other point I was alluding to is that Prisons staff should be paid well, their conditions of DR MMATLI: Mr Speaker, my main point is that, it is service should be improved because they are doing a lot not appropriate to extend the retirement age of elderly of work, look at how prisoners… people. When the poor people have worked for years…

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MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND Mr Speaker, I become so hurt when I think of the HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR SERETSE): Prisons Services. I compare them to the way Basarwa Point of order. Mr Speaker, even though we have are treated; being mistreated, having no rights. In some different views, it is not procedural for the Honourable departments in Botswana, evil is prevailing such that Minister to say what he just said about Honourable one would ask themselves that since these are robust Kgathi’s looks. It will now seem like it is true. people, whose minds are functioning properly, having been to school and having children who are Judges, MR SPEAKER: No, Honourable Madigele is not lawyers and doctors; what could be causing all this. holding the floor, he cannot say what he just said. Forget There is no one who considers that parents who are at about him. Proceed Honourable Mmatli. Prisons Services are people like soldiers, police officers; DR MMATLI (MOLEPOLOLE SOUTH): Mr hence, they should be given everything that is given to Speaker, it seems the Honourable Members have got others. no intention to allow me to continue with my debate. I What is worrisome is that when you consider the army believe I have… leadership, Police and Prisons Services…

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND MS MAKGATO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, it will COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of be remiss of us to allow the Honourable Member to order. Mr Speaker, we have a procedure in Parliament. continue in his line of debate where he has said for The reason why our rules of procedure say we should not the record in this Parliament that, Basarwa have no talk like that about people who are outside Parliament is rights in this country. He must withdraw that or tell us because they are not able to advocate for themselves, which rights Basarwa do not have, and specify where but now Honourable Kgathi is being described as if he is the Constitution has been violated. Otherwise, he must not here in Parliament. To end this argument, he should withdraw that and carry on debating in the dark, but he stand up so that we can indeed see for ourselves whether should not derail this House. he looks like a murderer or a Member of Parliament. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, how were …Silence… Basarwa denied their rights?

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, that is enough. MR MOLEBATSI: Basarwa were denied their rights Let us wind up with this Bill. by being relocated from their place of birth; where they found their forefathers staying, with the pretext to DR MMATLI: Thank you Mr Speaker. go and develop them somewhere. When you want to develop someone, develop them where they are. Now if MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmatli, are you done? you say you are going to improve the lives of the Prisons Services’ employees by adding years of suffering, DR MMATLI: Thank you. maybe when you are suffering we can remember you somewhere. My point is that, the Prisons Services… MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, I hope he is the last one. MS MAKGATO: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

MR MOLEBATSI (MOCHUDI EAST): Thank you MR SPEAKER: Yes, point of order. very much Mr Speaker. Let me thank Honourable MR MOLEBATSI: This person is not a Speaker, Minister Kgathi for trying to improve the salaries for neither is he a Judge. the Prisons Services, together with providing them with good accommodation. The current accommodation has MR SPEAKER: Please wait a moment. Point of order, been there since 1957, and those houses were built by the Honourable Molebatsi. Queen; the houses are dilapidated. I do not know if they MR MOLEBATSI: You cannot be delayed by… were built in an artesian building style (mosomane), but (inaudible)… Prison Warders stay in them like at Village, Mochudi, Mahalapye and Machaneng; it is not working. We MS MAKGATO: Mr Speaker, the Honourable Member should appreciate the Minister for adding 62 years of standing will withdraw the words “this girl”. Number suffering to the Prisons Services. one; I am Honourable Member, Dorcas Makgato; I am

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a legislator for Sefhare-Ramokgonami, they voted me to conduct funerals for people who would have been to become a Member of Parliament so withdraw that. brutally executed at Cell Number 10, Maximum Prisons Number two; Mr Speaker, I would like to hear your Village, Gaborone, Botswana. Capital punishment gives ruling, he has stood in Parliament saying ‘Basarwa have rise to fear in a nation. It has become apparent that they no rights in Botswana.’ So you said he should clarify, are made to do this duty, without a proper agreement. but he is just beating about the bush; he has not said They are made to do this… which rights they do not have. I did not think it was for him to clarify that, it was for you to rule whether we are HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure, saying in the Constitution of Botswana we are saying Mr Speaker. Basarwa have no rights. MR MOLEBATSI: …it does not show that their HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… emotions are respected, seeing people executed in private… MS MAKGATO: Are they not treated like all other tribes in Botswana? The others should keep quiet. I MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, point of do not know what you are anxious about because I am procedure. talking to the Speaker. MR MOLEBATSI: …no one knowing exactly when MR SPEAKER: The reason why I was saying he they are killed… should clarify what he said; he is comparing Basarwa MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, let us hear the with employees at the Prisons Services, so, I would point of procedure by Honourable Madigele. like you to understand what he is talking about. That is where I am, so I was not aware it would raise arguments. MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR Honourable Molebatsi, start by withdrawing the “girl” MADIGELE): Procedure. Thank you very Mr Speaker. one and then clarify your comparison, so that they can I agree with the issue presented by my colleague, but understand what you mean. since he has already made an introduction he should get into the Bill because he is left with three minutes so that MR MOLEBATSI: I withdraw the one about her we can hear what he is saying with respect to the Bill. being a “girl” but she is very provocative. In her being provocative, it is imperative that we pinch her a bit as MR SPEAKER: Honourable Molebatsi, they say you well. You are not a “girl” you are Honourable Dorcas have introduced it is enough, get to the issue. Proceed Makgato. I am not withdrawing the Prisons issue Honourable. because for more than 53 years, they were just being MR MOLEBATSI: I will not get to the Bill… watched and nothing was done to assist. Today, they are going to suffer until 62 years, or they would beg to be HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!) … made to suffer up to 65 years. Honourable Kgathi, I am MR MOLEBATSI: … you will make yourself get to the saying the Prisons Services employees should be treated Bill since you derailed yourself. I come from Mochudi, like those working for the Police Services. I wonder I come from Kgatleng East so I am complaining about whether the Police officers are treated that way because how the Prisons staff is treated… they might arrest someone, or the soldiers are treated in a different way from the Prisons Services because they HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… can do something else. MR MOLEBATSI: … my concern is, what is this Bill Considering the sector of the Prisons Services where they going to change when someone is going to torment us impart skills, good behaviour so that prisoners would be for more than ten years. able to be absorbed into the community; what they are doing is good and we could be showcasing it, I doubt Yesterday the Minister told us that the pension for that they have scarce skill at Prisons. It is just assumed Warders is P1700, the one in the middle gets P3000 whilst that they do not have any scarce skill, but they are given the superintendent’s pension is P7000. He indicated that, a duty to hang people, something that many people when the pension is increased, the one who got P7000 are failing to do. After someone has been hanged, they will move to P10 000, the one who received P4000 ensure that they are buried, yet they were not trained moves to P 7000 whilst the one who got a pension of

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P 1000 will move to P2000. One would wonder how a when you get there waiting for the months to elapse, you public employee who served meritoriously for 30 years will find things better and the food good. That is why I would receive a pension P1700 upon retirement, that am saying, we are improving. is sadness. Just imagine a sub inspector getting P4000 and a Superintendent getting P7000 when they retire, DR MMATLI: Point of order. Mr Speaker, please ask that is utmost humiliation and the Minister should come them to do what you requested me to do, he should not here with Prison’s salaries which are commensurate give an example about me… with those of Police and Botswana Defence Force HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!) … (BDF). You could be bringing such issues rather than issues of extending the retirement age, you are not DR MMATLI: … he should not give an example saying anything about their suffering and their welfare. saying he will be fixing beds for me at prison. I am very I must indicate that, they are doing a tremendous job far from committing crimes that I can go to prison. of equipping prisoners with vocational skills, the years HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Laughter!) .... they took training these prisoners produced good results but the results have gone down because they have lost DR MMATLI: There is no one to support him, unlike hope. In the past when a prisoner was released from him when he was talked about everyone had something jail, they would have acquired skills in leather works to say, even the BDPs commented that he is like that. and using tyres to weave mats, nowadays this is longer happening which is a sign that, Prison Warders have lost MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kgathi, stop threatening hope in the employer: they are no longer performing others with prison. well. Prison Warders have National Craft Certificate MR KGATHI: Okay. Thank you, but my main job is to (NCC), they have been trained to be able to impart skills make prison a habitable place so that anyone who goes on prisoners so that when are released, they can become there as a visitor should find it in order. Mr Speaker, you better people in the society. You have not taken that into know I am surprised by my fellow Honourables on the consideration as Minister, if you had, you would have other side of the aisle. I never got rest from Honourable realized that they change the lives of prisoners for the Mokgware, Honourable Mmatli and Honourable better and when they do these, their lives are in danger. Keorapetse regarding this issue of Prisons. Keorapetse I do not know why you did not bring any insurance to even asked me about the solar lights in Selebi Phikwe show that you are indeed aware that the job they do is and accused me of not taking care of the residents of dangerous… Selebi Phikwe. Today he is not supporting the Bill MR SPEAKER: Time up Honourable Member. that I have presented. Are you saying I should go to Honourable Kgathi, thank the Honourables. Selebi Phikwe and tell your people that you refused this amendment? MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND SECURITY (MR KGATHI): Thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… To tell the truth, debating this Bill should not have taken MR KGATHI: … Ohh, you are asking for forgiveness? this long because we were talking about two issues in Okay. moving this Motion. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Laughter!) .... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… MR KGATHI: ... (Laughter! )... No it is okay, when I MR KGATHI: We are talking about people who get to Selebi Phikwe I will say you asked for forgiveness, are very important in our lives, those who we as the I wanted to make amendments… Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) Government, we are committed… please listen. We are committed HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… to improving their lives. We are improving their conditions of service so that if it so happens that one MR KGATHI: … okay. Wait and ask for clarification, day you are transferred there Honourable, you will and ask for forgiveness. find good accommodation. You should not refuse such HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)... improvements because when you find things not in order you will blame me. We want the beds to be better so that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Laughter!) ....

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MR KGATHI: So Mr Speaker, this Bill is straight where I will tell them that we did not agree on with forward, we are correcting what workers will make Honourable in Parliament. That is why I am saying prison officers left like that. We train them at a very high leave it to me so that we can go and talk about it and we cost, we spend over P2 million in a year on training. do not delay Parliament with such issues. So people we have trained will be over a large number of 48, who can retire… HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is why I am saying we went around visiting Clarification. prisons, Botswana Defence Force (BDF) and the police. The excitement that was there, they were saying that the MR KGATHI: Wait first. Those who have to retire if Botswana Democratic Party (Domkrag) governance; we may not adjust this age, but they are people who Honourable Makgato, Honourable V.T and Honourable have skill that required so many years to train them. Olopeng backed them up on the Conditions of service That is why we are trying to remedy something here, issue. They appreciated that and said that we are a robust in such a situation. It is very urgent and imperative gore Government. I wonder if you were not there. Government must rectify the issues contained in this Bill. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

Now with respect to the conditions of service … MR KGATHI: No, I do not have plenty of time so let me respond to the questions. Time is running out, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. allow we to wrap up. So, we improved the conditions of service with effect from yesterday 1st of April; those MR KGATHI: … we were travelling a while back … who started with B3 scale will now start with B1. Then HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. this B1 will push forward, it is called touch forward in the defence force language, it pushes like this...the MR KGATHI: I do not have time. language of Honourable Mokgware and the likes. I visited the Prisons sometime back with the President. DR MMATLI: On a point of procedure. Honourable MR SPEAKER: Point of order Honourable Kgathi, let Kgathi, will be violating the procedures of this us hear Honourable Mmatli. Parliament if he can make a statement as if I Tlamelo Mmatli was against the improvement of the conditions DR MMATLI: Mr Speaker, will Honourable Kgathi be of service. We supported the development to elevate in order if he finishes his presentation without stating Prisons Officers from the scale which they started on. what he is going to do about the youth who have been I did not go against that. I also want to tell him that I waiting to work as prison warders, where are they going did not say that the elderly people who work at prisons to work if people who are supposed to retire have their should retire and go and suffer, I said that I want their retirement age extended? Will it be in order for him not to salaries to be increased so that when they retire, they answer, because I told him that the youth of Molepolole will have start-up capital for businesses. He should not have sent me here to request that the retirement age be contaminate my statement. reduced and instead officers be given an incentive so that they can venture into business. However, he on the MR SPEAKER: No, he is listening to you so he will other hand is extending their retirement age. answer you.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmatli, he just started MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I am a very compassionate answering. I believe all issues raised will be answered. person and I accept your apology, I will not respond It is the same as the one who compared him to the back to what he said, just like Keorapetse was asking hangman, I believe he will have to… for forgiveness. Against one’s words is not a problem, he said that and the Hansard is there, they can go and MR KGATHI: No, you could be leaving it for me and him... get it...(Laughter!) …

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kgathi, proceed Mr Speaker, one other thing on conditions of service, Honourable. I instructed the Secretary of the Ministry that we should look at the unique conditions of service for the MR KGATHI: I was the youth Minister. I know what employees who have not been trained. They are part and is happening at Youth and I am the Minister for Prisons. parcel of the conditions of service. These young people We will go together to Molepolole and hold a meeting have long been disadvantaged to the highest level.

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. Mr Speaker, with those words, I move that the Prisons (Amendment) Bill, 2018 (No. 33 of 2018) be read the MR KGATHI: Can I please finish, time is running out. second time. I thank you.

I am going to take you one by one, you have been Question put and agreed to. mocking and making fun of me saying that I lost primary elections; one by one! I am taking the Hansard Committee-Later Date. to the Constituency and I am going to say that… … it seems like Honourable Wynter Mmolotsi and Dr BILL Butale are the only people who supported this Bill. MARRIAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2018 Honourable Tshireletso, I appreciate what you have said (NO. 37 OF 2018) about prisons. I thank Dr Butale for persuading you by telling you that you are putting yourselves in danger by Second Reading not supporting this Bill. Some of you heard him. Thank you… MR SPEAKER: This Bill is by Honourable Keorapetse. You have 20 minutes to present your Bill Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Member.

MR KGATHI: I heard him shouting when I was at MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): Tonota yesterday, he is saying that I persuaded you, Thank you Mr Speaker. I am advised that there are things will not look good if we reject this Bill. I forgive copies available for all Honourable Members. I think everyone who said that because these reasons show that they will be circulated. you are talking about pension. The age adjustments improve the net replacement ratio when calculating MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND pension. You do not need to be a student of business HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR SERETSE): On economics or any related course for you to understand a point of procedure. It seems like the relevant Minister these things, they are in here. Honourable Keorapetse, I is not here…oh! You are hiding. talked about you, I will skip you because we are from MR SPEAKER: Proceed Honourable Keorapetse. neighbouring Constituencies. Dr Butale, Honourable Majaga, Honourable Salakae and Honourable Molefe MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure and talked about these things. There are some people who… honour this afternoon to present for Second Reading, the Marriage (Amendment) Bill, 2018 (No. 37 of 2018). HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. Briefly as stipulated in the Memorandum of the Bill, it is MR KGATHI: No, there is not time. There are some sought to address three main areas: people who talked about prison officers who carry out this heavy duty of being the hangmen. We give them (1) To protect the rights of persons with mental Special Duty Allowance… disorders; as alluded to in Paragraph 2.2 of the Memorandum, the language used in the current HONOURABLE MEMBER: How much is it? Act is for lack of better terminology, archaic, MR KGATHI: We will tell you how much it is when barbaric and demeaning. It lacks the humane touch you come for the interview. that persons with mental disorders deserve to be treated. It is therefore in this manner sought not HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … to only remove the degrading language but also MR KGATHI: …(Laughter!) … Honourable impact of applying Section 14 in its current state. Member, you qualify. I am responsible for doing all the Mr Speaker, currently Section 14 has the impact of preparations while you are only responsible for doing applying a blanket approach to treating persons with the job. You have the experience because you have been mental disorders and thereby basically denying them a police officer. You can qualify for these things when outright the right to enter into contracts of marriage. we interview you, there is a special allowance. Mr Speaker, it does not require any focal lenses to see Our employees are awarded a scarce skill allowance that this practice is unfair and basically tramples on the opposed to what you people are saying. rights of persons with mental disorders.

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Many of you Honourable Members can attest to the fact MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION that we live in our families with persons who have varying AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MR NGAKA): I was levels of mental disorders. Many of them we know have talking about copies, there you have them. raised children without help in most cases or some cases, many among us running this very Government. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. It is therefore befitting that we not unnecessarily deny MR KEORAPETSE: No, you cannot clarify when I such persons the dignity they deserve. am presenting.

(2) Secondly Mr Speaker, to prohibit child marriage MR SPEAKER: The copies are not yet here so just pay and I wish Honourable Tshireletso was here attention. because we discussed this extensively at the Southern African Development Community- MR KEORAPETSE: The Marriage Act only deals Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) and we indeed with the essential elements of the civil marriage. On adopted a model law on child marriages. Consistent the flip side Mr Speaker, the Marriage Act does not in with Convention on the Rights of the Child and the fact recognise such marriages and go to the extent of Children’s Act Mr Speaker, Honourable Members, indicating that the Marriage Act will not deal with the it is not right for us to still have a provision in validity of such religious or cultural marriages. This is our law that allows for child marriage in any form. provided for by Section 22 of the Marriage Act. It is because of this that this Bill seeks to ensure that children under the age of 18 are protected. It There are loopholes Mr Speaker, that show that leaving also ensures that this happens by deleting any such the status quo leaves us open to failing to protect our reference in the law. children. For instance, in terms of the Penal Code, in particular Section 147 (5), it is a defence against a To further prohibit child marriages under religious or other dispensations; as the Umbrella for Democratic charge of defilement if the sex took place between Change (UDC) and other equally concerned Members married spouses, one being under the age of 18. I think of Parliament across the political divide, we are deeply Honourable Makgato understands the enormity of this concerned that our laws permit children under the age provision. In other words, when you say that a child of 18 to be married in accordance with customary law has been defiled, it is a defence to say, no, but we were or any other religion such as Islam, Christianity or married. Other unscrupulous people will go on to bribe Hinduism. the uncles and tell the police that we were actually in a marriage contract under religious or customary We are fortified in our view by the fact that Marriage marriage. Act does not apply to such marriages in so far as the essentials of the marriages are concerned. The Marriage The law confirms that even a child under 16 years can Act only deals with the essential elements of a civil be married, but certainly not in terms of the Marriage marriage. Act, as it prohibits it, but in terms of culture or religion. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Lelatisitswe, quorum. Mr Speaker, it really is indisputable that child marriages MR KEORAPETSE: On the flip side... have devastating consequences on children. It firstly HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. undermines the child’s sexual reproductive health in light of the fact that a spouse can easily force the MR KEORAPETSE: We have lost quorum Mr minor child to have sexual relations with them. In turn speaker, come back in. On the flip side, the Marriage the spouse would not be held responsible under the Act does not... law, as the offence of marital rape is not flagged as an HONOURABLE MEMBER: We do not have copies. offence in Botswana. Additionally, within the marriage relationship, because of the inequality in age in most MR KEORAPETSE: Can you please circulate copies. cases, the child would not have been able to negotiate There are the copies. for safe sex practices, thus making the child more MR SPEAKER: Yes, what is your point of procedure susceptible to contracting HIV and AIDS and other Honourable Ngaka? Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs).

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In the same vein Mr Speaker, the child’s reproductive We therefore submit Mr Speaker, that the law should be rights will be infringed due to the fact that, if they are made clearer and consistent by amending the Marriage of child bearing age, they may be forced to nurture Act by specifically prohibiting any child to get into a children before they themselves are psychologically and marriage contract. emotionally equipped to do so. Additionally, they may not even have a say in determining the number, spacing Now, on the regional perspective on child marriages; the and timing of their children. issue of child marriages is an issue that has been troubling the Southern African Development Community (SADC) It is also common cause that child marriages have region for a while now. In Zimbabwe for instance, the effects on the child’s access to education due to the constitutional court being the superior court of record, responsibilities that they must now shoulder in the declared marriages of children under the age of 18 household. In that regard, most children in this position unconstitutional and abolished or banned the customary drop out of school which in turn, has implications on and religious practice allowing for it. their competitiveness for the job market. On the 3rd of June 2016, the Southern African It therefore begs the question; should we have laws that Development Community-Parliamentary Forum permit children, who majority are girls, to be spouses (SADC-PF) adopted a Model Law on Eradicating Child when they should be in schools and growing? Marriage and Protecting Children Already in Marriage. The Model Law on child marriages requires member We submit that the law as it is must be changed and states including Botswana to harmonise their national this change can be effected on the Marriage Act by laws to prevent child marriages, which is consistent with amending the law so that the marriage would be valid, the African Union Campaign to End Child Marriages in provided that the parties are both 18 or above the age a Generation. of 18. The Model Law Mr Speaker provides guidance to Furthermore, this will in essence, be consistent with the Parliamentarians, Ministers of Justice or related recent Penal Code (Amendment) Act that was recently ministries, policy makers and other stakeholders in passed by Parliament, which is still yet to be assented to SADC countries on how best to go about developing by the President. the national laws. Its primary aim is to eliminate several gaps and inconsistencies in the current laws that enable MR SPEAKER: Honourable Arone, come inside. girls to be brides. Order! Let us proceed. I suggest you check quorum first before you can go outside Honourable Members. We have consequently drawn heavily from the Model Honourable Member, you too must be careful that they Law in the proposed amendments we have developed do not collapse the quorum. accompanying this presentation. Other inconsistencies MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, Mr Speaker. Failure to of the law; notwithstanding that our grave concern is the make these necessary safeguards may result in some issue of child marriages, we think it will be remiss of us undermining the good intentions and effects of the law not to highlight some of the other problematic gaps and by abusing children under the guise of marriage. More inconsistencies in our laws. importantly, the Children’s Act, in particular Section 62, Capacity to marry; prohibits subjecting children to cultural and religious practices which are detrimental to their wellbeing such • The Marriage Act prescribes that a person between as forced marriages. the ages of 18-20 requires the consent of their guardian or parent to marry. Refer to Section 15 of We submit that a child below the age of 18 years lacks the Marriage Act. the requisite capacity to contract if they are minors, and marriage being a form of contract, the marriage • This law overlooks the fact that the age of majority contract should be void from the onset. Consequently, was lowered from age of 21 to 18 as far back as any consent by any child to marry is void and thus in 2010. We know that 18 year-olds are able to vote effect amount to a forced marriage which the Children’s and are able to run for political office, but we are told Act prohibits. However, the Penal Code does not see it that they need their parents to consent before they that way. can get into a marriage contract.

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• In terms of Section 49 of the Interpretation Act, a way that we even included the religious marriages on minor is a person who has not attained the age of the basis that they should also be registered. There are 18 and the age of majority means a person who has a lot of items, even some administrative issues in the attained the age of 18 years. In essence therefore Mr marriage spectrum. Speaker, the Marriage Act imposes an unnecessary legal impediment on measures to seek the consent As such, I had asked him to wait for a comprehensive of their parents or guardians when they are adults of one which covers everything, including Section 14 and full legal capacity themselves. As I have indicated, Section 15 that he is talking about, even Section 22 of they are able to vote and even run for political office. the Marriage Act. Moreover … ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TERTIARY In conclusion, we submit that it makes no legal sense to EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND keep the law as is without aligning it to the Interpretation TECHNOLOGY (MR MOLAO): Clarification. Act as parental consent is only required when a person Minister, within the suggested amendments, does it lacks the capacity in law to contract. It is not so in this cover polygamy or we are yet to amend it further so that case. To us this looks like an oversight on the part of it covers polygamy? the lawmakers and we therefore call for the appropriate amendments. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … MR NGAKA: Thank you Mr Speaker. …(Laughter!) We further note that the Marriage Act, in a case where … I was still saying that we have covered all these in the persons between 18 and 21 wish to marry, discriminates draft Bill. I also wanted to point something out here … against fathers of children born out of wedlock as it does not require their consent but that of their mothers only. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. This goes against the Children’s Act in that it demands MR NGAKA: Please wait a minute because I am that both parents be involved in the life of the child and running out of time, I have got a lot here. I wanted to in particular be part of the affairs concerning their child point out that in the Marriage Act, Section 14 is talking about… Mr Speaker, allow me to read the current one. as equal guardians. MR SPEAKER: Go ahead Honourable. I therefore ask Honourable Members’ support in this amendment. It is the right thing to do Honourable MR NGAKA: Section 14 says… Members. I accordingly move that this Bill be read a MR SPEAKER: Are you reading or quoting it? second time. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR NGAKA: Please let me quote it Sir. MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MR NGAKA): Thank you MR SPEAKER: Alright, quote it. Mr Speaker. Let me take this time to comment on the MR NGAKA: Section 14 says … Amendment Bill here by Honourable Keorapetse. What I have done as a Minister, I had already talked to him. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Of what? We met a couple of times to discuss his Amendment MR NGAKA: The Marriage Act says, “no insane Bill and I was showing him that we as a ministry, are person who is incapable of giving consent to a marriage working on the amendments which he stated here and and no person below the age of 18 years may marry.” they are already at the final stage at Attorney General The issue here is the word “may.” So, what is happening, (AG) of which I had the last communication with them he said that we should replace the word “may” with th on the 25 of March; last month. The intention was to “shall.” That is what we are considering now. It is there table this Bill in June/July, the coming sitting. What is in the draft Bill. We are removing the word “may” and happening now is that, he got some portions from what replace it with “shall” such that we really do away with we have proposed in the draft Bill. What he is saying is this Section. the very honest truth. As a ministry, we also agree with him that this is what we are doing now. The only thing Let me point out Mr Speaker that, this is not the first is that, he is addressing it in piecemeal format although time I am talking about Marriage Act review in this we have covered the whole spectrum of marriage in a Parliament. On the 4th of March, Honourable Batshu

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asked a question about the Marriage Act. Let me read MR NGAKA: …(Laughter!) … During Committee of his question together with my answer Mr Speaker which Supply… are recorded in the Hansard. It was on the 4th of March. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR SPEAKER: Proceed sir. MR NGAKA: Let me continue because I have a lot to MR NGAKA: I quote Mr Speaker, “asked the Minister cover here. of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs to appraise this Honourable House on progress made in MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. Minister, you have reviewing the Marriage Act to amongst others ensure just indicated that Honourable Batshu and Honourable that Customary and Religious Marriages are registered Makgato left it on the table, what guarantee do we have with the Registrar of Societies.” That was his question that you are not going to leave it on the table when you on the 4th of March. Mr Speaker, I addressed it thus go? Why can you not allow the Honourable Member of and I quote, “my ministry has already submitted Parliament to continue with the Bill because it is already instructions…” Underline the word “instructions.” here and then you can amend it?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MR NGAKA: Thank you Honourable Member. Honourable Batshu started it and I am completing it. So, MR NGAKA: Ooh! … “instructions to the Attorney I already gave you the date of June/July, the sitting of General for the drafting of the Bill to review the Parliament, so I will not miss it. Marriage Act to include amongst others; registration of Customary and Religious Marriages under the Register Let me also add that during Committee of Supply meeting of Societies.” I addressed it in that manner on the 4th of Mr Speaker, Paragraph 4 of my speech, I pointed out March in this Parliament. In addition to that… that we are working on the review of Marriage Act. Let me quote, if you allow me Mr Speaker, to quote from MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND my Committee of Supply speech which I made here in COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): this Parliament. Elucidation. Honourable Member, are you aware that when Honourable Batshu asked this question, he left MR SPEAKER: Proceed Honourable. with the full knowledge that this Bill which he has prioritised should be taken further? He felt that you MR NGAKA: Yes. “The Marriage Act is under review were not there yet and wanted to know how far with it to include the registration of religious and traditional because he was your predecessor. marriages, provide for the monitoring and regulation of appointed Marriage Officers, as well as delete MR NGAKA: Thank you Madam Minister. That is true Section 15 of the Act based on the global outcry that Honourable Makgato, indeed he left this Bill on the table child marriages are in fact a form of child abuse as they and you were also there. That is why on the 15th and violate the right of the child. The Marriage Bill is at 25th of March, I had some correspondences between my ministry and the AG on this Bill. In addition to that… drafting stage.” So, you can see that … MR MAELE: Elucidation. Mr Speaker, I take it that you MR LELATISITSWE: Clarification. Let me ask you heard what the Minister said. In my view, the Bill which while you are still on the floor, in summarising all the Honourable Keorapetse tabled, it becomes more or less points that came, we once had a problem to a point redundant if the Minister is so comprehensive like he where we had to search from dictionaries for the word said. I was saying as the Minister draws to a conclusion, plarism… he must look for a certain Standing Order and use it HONOURABLE MEMBER: Plagiarism. because what he said and recorded is evidence, I do not think we have to doubt him. In fact, it is useless for us MR LELATISITSWE: Plagiarism. We were trying to to deal with this Bill from Honourable Keorapetse and find out if this word is still relevant today? leave a certain aspect lagging behind which he talked about such that when he comes in June/July we then… I MR NGAKA: In addition to that Mr Speaker… think it is best for us to debate it as a comprehensive law HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … once like the Minister is saying. Thank you sir.

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MR SPEAKER: That is entirely up to you, it does not MR SPEAKER: Yes, that is main protection, to debate concern me. Proceed Honourable Minister. with no fear and express your views freely. But I cannot get involved in the voting part, whether they agree with MR NGAKA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was … your Motion or not, that is literally your decision to MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure. Mr Speaker, you make. Rest assured, you are going to debate freely and have a duty to protect me and any other Member, invoke your Standing Order to decide what you want especially those who are in the minority in the House. It to do regarding this Bill. I will just be controlling the is an obligation on your part. There is nothing abnormal debates and ensuring that you are following procedure. about this Bill. If the Minister is of the view that what I MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION am saying is exactly what he is bringing, then he must AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MR NGAKA): Thank agree. The onus is on him to bring the amendments to you Mr Speaker. I had just quoted from my Committee this Bill just to make it complete. If in his considered of Supply, and even indicated that this was a global view, it is an incomplete Bill, then he must bring in cry. On the 25th March Mr Speaker, I was in Geneva in amendments. I do not think there is anything wrong the 72 Sessions of Committee of Elimination and All with the Bill, it is okay as he has said. In fact, he has Forms of Discrimination Against Women. I made this said... I am pleading with you Mr Speaker, you need to statement and even indicated that we are reviewing our protect me as a Member of Parliament (MP). The reason Marriage Act in Botswana, while I was in Geneva, the I say this is because, Ms Johanna Joy Phumaphi was in same way I am doing now and even giving you the date. this very House many years ago… I wonder if those people you mentioned brought Bills or HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible).... Motions here, Phumaphi and Saleshando, did they give dates? When are they bringing those, or when those MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, exactly, I am establishing should happen? I am saying, in June/July I am tabling the trend. She was in this very House talking about this Bill. I promise. declaration of assets and liabilities… MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR MR SPEAKER: Do not be tempted to debate. ARONE): On a point of clarification. Before the Minister concludes, can he repeat his statement. MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, almost all the Parliaments Honourable Mmolotsi, at schools or universities, we ever since she said that, Government has been delaying have what is called academic plagiarism, I suspect what the process. Honourable Saleshando was in this very Honourable Keorapetse did was political plagiarism. House, he tabled the Motion of freedom of information, Can you please come out clearly and say the same and you said you are tabling it to this date, it has not approach Honourable Noah Salakae was arguing that we come… like piecemeal approach is the same one the Honourable MR SPEAKER: Conclude Honourable Member, you Member brought. We are working on a comprehensive only sought for clarification. Bill. Remind us that the Bill you gave instructions for, covers which aspect and this one covers only a single MR KEORAPETSE: Honourable Gilson Saleshando item. There is no way we can go ahead and debate this tabled a Motion of broadcasting of Parliament, in the Bill. 10th Parliament, while we were here. What guarantees do we have that Honourable Ngaka will table a Bill MR NGAKA: Mr Speaker, there is a lot covered in the here? I seek your protection Mr Speaker. Draft Bill which is at Attorney General (AG). I have just indicated that the Draft Bill provides for the monitoring HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible).... and regulation of appointed officers, marriage officers, MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members, as well as deleting Section 15 of the Act based on the Honourable Keorapetse you requested for protection. global cry, and that child marriages are in fact a form Can you please explain on what grounds? You have of child abuse. If you look at what I have just read, protection all the time, which I ensure that you have we are talking of religious and traditional marriages, time to debate. monitoring and regulations. So you can see that ours cover a lot of aspects including this amendment. I was HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... saying…

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MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... MADIGELE): On a point of procedure. Let me correct Honourable Minister because I wanted to ignore it DR P. BUTALE: …It is already on the floor right? but I failed to. When he was talking about the Geneva MR SPEAKER: Honourable Butale, I do not exactly Conference, he said the 72th Session so I want him to correct and say 72nd Session. I was bothered by that, I know what your procedure is but there is no procedure was not going to sleep Mr Speaker. on what you just said.

MR SPEAKER: Okay sir, the 72th but he heard your MR NGAKA: Mr Speaker, the Draft Bill I am talking point. about, I said it is at the final stage at AG. I do not have it here now; I cannot bring it because they are still working nd MR NGAKA: They are wasting my time, I said 72 , on it now. What I wanted to indicate is that, in the Draft he has nothing to say. What I am saying Mr Speaker is Bill, we have replaced the word ‘insane’ with ‘mentally that… ill’ and together with ‘may’ with ‘shall’.

MR SALAKAE: On a point of clarification. I hear MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of procedure. Mr you Honourable Minister but the main issue is that Speaker, I think what we need is for you to help us Honourable Keorapetse says he tabled a Bill which follow the right procedure since we all agree. It is very both he and I agree that it is comprehensive. You are clear that the Minister understands what he wants to saying AG have asked you to wait as they are drafting amend. I think we can proceed with this Bill, like he is something. So my question is, whatever you are waiting for is it that complex such that you are unable to amend articulating amendments properly, then we insert them what Keorapetse tabled? I wonder if you cannot amend and proceed. I am happy that the information is at the this one whilst waiting for the complex part which you tips of his fingers and therefore, we would not have a will table in July? problem amending it. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi, I am listening MR NGAKA: Thank you Mr Speaker. What I have to what you are saying, and there is no one who has indicated is that we are reviewing the whole Marriage veered off the road. You are on the right track; I am Act, we are not taking one Section or two Sections like listening attentively. You have Standing Orders that you he has done. In that case, when we review the whole can use, so it depends what you would like to do. I am Act, and comparing us with somebody who has taken paying attention. Please continue Honourable Ngaka. two sections in the current Act, no! My point is, let us wait for the Bill we will table in June and review it MINISTER OF NATIONALITY, IMMIGRATION as a whole. Like I have just indicated in that draft, we AND GENDER AFFAIRS (MR NGAKA): Mr Speaker, it will be an offence for somebody to be in are talking of regulating the appointment of marriage a marriage with someone who is less than 18 years. officers and even monitoring. It is talking about the There are penalties again in that Draft Bill that say, religious and traditional marriages. You can see that in in case somebody does that, what is the Marriage Act the Draft Bill I am waiting for, which the AG is drafting, saying about it. What I am saying is, since all what he I cannot bring it here because they have not yet finalised is saying is in the whole draft of the Marriage Act in the it. It is at the final stage, I am not yet done, they are Draft Bill, I take it that we should as well wait for June working on it now. I want to indicate that in our Draft when we would present everything that we have about Bill… marriages…

DR P. BUTALE: On a point of procedure. Thank you MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of clarification. Mr Speaker. We hear that there is another Bill on the Honourable Ngaka, I am requesting for one thing from pipeline, since this one is already on the floor, could the you, please tell us the exact date that you got the draft Minister not furnish us with his to make improvements from the drafters. Do you know the exact date that and continue debating it? Is the issue not who presented Honourable Batshu got the draft from the drafters? but the Bill itself? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

DR P. BUTALE: What are you now refuting? We say MR KEORAPETSE: You do not know. The reason I we want to be productive. Minister present that one so am bringing this up is because I have reservations in that we… terms of when this Bill will come here. When I look at

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the first time you received these drafts and up to now, it Question put and agreed to. is a very long time. Again, I would like to find out from you, since you are saying they are ready, that they are in MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, when do you the final stage; why do you not bring them here so that I want your Bill to come back on the floor of Parliament? can add my amendments, and we proceed? MR KEORAPETSE: Later date.

MR NGAKA: I have not said it is ready. I said it is in the MR SPEAKER: Yes, since you have said later date it is final stage at the Attorney General’s Chambers (AGs), okay, it means you will inform us as to when you would whatever amendments we have, we submitted to them. like it to come to Parliament. I believe by then you Mr Speaker, in short we are repealing and re-enacting would have sat down with the Minister to agree when the Marriage Act, the whole of it. We are not getting you would like it to come to the floor. Let us move on pieces and piece meals out of that of what you are doing to the next one. now. What I am saying is that I do not welcome what he is bringing, where he is putting it forward to us that Later Date. we should support him. What is transpiring is that, we MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Point of order Mr Speaker. are working on it as an overhaul of the Marriage Act. I I have heard the decision that was taken Mr Speaker, thank you Mr Speaker. because you are doing your job. Are the Honourable MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR Members aware that as this Bill was brought here, it’s ARONE): Mr Speaker, I thank you. I do not want to aim was to protect the lives of some of the children debate as Honourable Prince Maele stood up earlier whom… on. We are pointing out that what Honourable Sticks HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Keorapetse is proposing, is about an amendment of the Marriage Act, we are reviewing the whole Act. Who is MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: …yes, it means the supposed to propose the amendments? The whole Act situation is going to continue. has to be presented, and then Honourable Keorapetse MR SPEAKER: No, Honourable Mokgware, quickly would come and amend. As far as we are explaining or wind up please. we are giving feedback to him this side, there is nothing he can amend because he is saying it exactly word by MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: Yes, I was still saying word. His problem is that he has picked part of the we might have taken a decision that we have taken, but somebody’s life is still in danger, a child in this country. whole review that we are conducting.

We cannot come here and be productive Mr Speaker, MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mokgware, you are out debating an issue which we already have proof of, as of order. This House has taken a decision that the debate the responses from the Hansard of Parliament have should be halted for a while until next time, so you been showing this year, not last year, this year, that the cannot blame anyone. You have also voted. Please let us move on to the next one. Minister has responded. This year, the Minister said it during the Committee of Supply. Those are official MEDIA PRACTITIONERS (REPEAL) records that we have Mr Speaker. BILL, 2018 (NO. 38 OF 2018) Mr Speaker, I would like to move that we truncate the Second Reading debate, the Honourable Member will bring amendments if need be, when we come to discuss this comprehensive MR SPEAKER: This Bill is by Honourable Keorapetse. review of the Marriage Act. I am evoking Standing He has 20 minutes to present his Bill. Order 54.1 so that we can adjourn this debate, we shall MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): go back to it in June. I so move Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I have the honour MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Members! this afternoon to also present the Media Practitioners Honourable Arone, he evoked Standing Order 54.1, (Repeal) Bill, 2018. This Bill was published on the adjournment of debate. I am compelled to put the 14th December 2018 in the Extraordinary Government question. Gazette. Mr Speaker, you would know that the Umbrella

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for Democratic Change (UDC) is a Social Democratic anybody who publishes anything in a newspaper. The Organisation which believes in promotion of media law criminalises journalistic activities in that it provides freedoms and for this reason, we seek to ask this for stiffer penalties including hefty fines and jail terms Parliament to exercise its law making power to repeal against media practitioners. Such kind of laws were this draconian law. common in one-party states and outside dictatorships. They were cited as examples that there was deficit of The object of the Bill Mr Speaker, is to repeal the Media democracy in such policies. Such kind of laws have Practitioners Act (Cap. 61:09), which was passed by no place in democracies, and that is why we have th Parliament on the 11 Day of December 2008, 10 years obliterated them. ago, assented to by President Ian Khama on the 22nd December 2008 and commenced on the 31st December Mr Speaker, the law was enacted under the pretext of 2008. This Act was however never implemented mainly providing for self-regulation but fall short of the key because key stakeholders declined to participate, principles of self-regulation in that the state seeks to yet their participation is mandatory in the Act. The play a role of a referee, player and an official. This Government should get the message that or accept the therefore, undermines media freedoms. Parliament reality that application of this law is no longer feasible. It and the Government must accept the reality that it has has not been for ten years. The majority of stakeholders been impossible to enforce or implement the Act for subscribe to the international standard of self-regulation, ten years. For ten years we were stuck with the law media freedom, and are of the view that it is a draconian that cannot be implemented, primarily because those and regressive law. It is intended therefore by introducing who are supposed to be key stakeholders have serious this Bill, the status quo continues until such time reservations about the law. Why then should we have this when a proper instrument is brought to Parliament for law, why have a law that you cannot use for a decade; consideration. As the Umbrella for Democratic Change such laws which are almost impossible to implement or (UDC), we are of the opinion that since independence, are unenforceable, the Court of Appeal has advised in freedom of information, including the free press, free its wisdom that they should be repealed, that you cannot access to information contained in Government records have a law in the statutes, in the books, and you have ten and freedom of speech; that is the liberty to express years, 2008 to 2018 without removing those ... opinions and ideas without hindrance and without fear HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... of punishment, have been restricted and controlled by Botswana’s strong authoritarian state in a manner MR KEORAPETSE: No, I will look for the case, but that gravely undermines and negates the principles it is not included in there. Yes, it is judicial precedent, of transparency and accountability. We contend that and I think it was Ian Kirby Judge President who made rulers should be accountable to the ruled; they should that clear that you have a law that is unenforceable or be obliged to justify their actions to the electorate. impossible to implement, get rid of the law. I will get Political leaders should answer to the public on their the case number for you, I have many lawyers at my disposal of their powers and duties, act upon criticism disposal, so I will get it. or demands made of them, and accept responsibility for failure, blunders, incompetence or deceit. This is only We contend further that there is need to reform achievable if there is free media which is able to work restrictive laws that impede on media freedom and without fear or without encumbrance. freedom of information and expression. Mr Speaker, there is a plethora of laws in this country which have Mr Speaker, the Media Practitioners Act 2008 provisions which restricts the media. We will ask the criminalises journalism, restricts media work and Government to review laws such as the National intimidates journalists. The Acts promotes self- Security Act, Corruption and Economic Crime Act, censorship by publishers, journalists and editors. The Penal Code, Prisons Act, Botswana Defence Force Act, law establishes a press council which would purportedly Police Act, Cinematograph Act, Immigration Act, and act as a self-regulating body that will monitor Public Service Statutes, including The General Orders, activities of the press and ensure the maintenance of as well as other regulations and policies which include high professional standards, and to provide for the media unfriendly provisions. These we are of the view registration and accreditation of media practitioners. that they must be looked into. For instance, if you look Media Practitioners is loosely defined to include at the Immigration Act, it has provisions which allow the

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President to declare anybody a prohibited immigrant, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... and we know that almost under all Presidents, we have seen media practitioners being persona non-grata. The MR KEORAPETSE: Well, I do not know what he is infamous cases include that of Roderick Mukumbira, talking about, but there is a principle in law; principle of John Mukela, include that of the South African Refugee clean hands. Clean hands is that when you have a matter journalist who was an editor in one of the leading papers; before the Courts, you should be seen to be self-helping, Mxolisi Mgasha. These are some of the cases that one engaging in the acts of self-help. So, I do not want to can cite, and each Immigration Act was used to declare stand in Parliament and discuss a case ... persona non-grata; I have seen Reporters and Editors. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)...

The Economic Crime Act for instance, I am just MR KEORAPETSE: We have issued statutory notice giving few examples. We know that a certain Innocent to sue, and I have signed Power of Attorney, and I am Selathwa of the Gazette Newspaper was arrested for proceeding with the case. So, I do not want to be standing allegedly publishing information contrary to provisions in Parliament discussing my case, I will be violating of the Corruption and Economic Crime Act (CICA). that principle. You must understand and distinguish; I We should have a law that allows journalists to operate am not saying that the matter is sub-judice, and I am freely. It is journalists who uncovered acts of corruption not going to talk about it. I am saying, I do not want to in this country, sometimes they are ahead of even Law violate the principle of clean hands and exercise self- Enforcement Agencies in uncovering corruption. So, help, because when you have a matter that you want the instead of restricting their activities, we should be Courts to consider, you do not want to ... promoting their activities. You can look at the National Security Act, and Penal Code, laws such as Sedition, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... Criminal Defamation, and so forth, these are obsolete MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, I know that laws which should not be found in our statutes. My plea Honourable Molao and like other Honourable Members to Honourable Members is that we need to also look at like Honourable Makgalemele, they have sued for these other laws. defamation of character. Defamation of character Mr Speaker... exists. There are many precedents; I know the former Chief Justice Dibotelo, Honourable Mbiganyi Charles HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... Tibone, the former Minister have sued successfully for defamation of character. Honourable Molao was MR KEORAPETSE: Daniel Kenosi, no, I was not unsuccessful. Others have settled out of Court including happy... Honourable Kgathi, and many others that I know, have sued. I am also pursuing defamation. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You were. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND MR KEORAPETSE: No, I was not. COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): On a point of procedure, Mr Speaker. Honourable Speaker, Mr Speaker, a reform of the state media is also essential, the Honourable Member standing here is one person and one way of ensuring greater transparency and whom when we refuse to discuss cases likes to use accountability, it should be done through granting this particular reasoning of the law, while we would be it autonomy by making it a public enterprise or a saying such cases must not be brought here since they parastatal with an independent board. I know the late are still before the court of law. Now today just because General Merafhe said; I think this was in the 10th or he is conflicted, he does not want us to talk about them, 9th Parliament that we might as well just forget about he is implying that it will seem like he is defending making the state media more independent. himself. He should therefore explain why he feels it is important to not talk about the case while he always MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR insists that Parliament should discuss cases even if they MADIGELE): Point of clarification. Thank you very are before the Courts. much Honourable Speaker, and thank you Honourable Member of Selebi Phikwe West. Are you saying that the MR SPEAKER: Order! No, Honourable Members, man who draws you in the form of a cartoon should be it is not up to him to decide what we discuss and not prosecuted? discuss. If you can bring to my attention that the courts

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are actively considering the case that Honourable MR KEORAPETSE: Honourable Makgato is not Keorapetse is talking about, that is when we shall a threat to me Mr Speaker, rest assured. I have never consider not discussing it. If it is just a small talk among talked about the principle of clean hands in this you as Honourable Members, I would not listen. Parliament. I have talked about the sub judice principle and Honourable Makgato stood up to say that I always MR KEORAPETSE: Honourable Makgato, I do not say that matters should be discussed even if they are expect you to understand the principle of clean hands before the courts. These two things are different. If she in law. That is why you are confusing it with sub judice finds it difficult to understand and differentiate, again, I principle… cannot assist her because to me, it is plain and clear; no HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why? ambiguity at all. MS MAKGATO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, ‘clean MR KEORAPETSE: The reasons are obvious, and hands’ and the matter is ‘sub judice’, you are talking would probably be offensive if I were to state them. about cases that are before court, so, I do not understand Forget about my case Honourable Makgato… what seems to be the matter because all matters would MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND be in front of the courts. All I said was, how come when cases are at court he always insists that we discuss COMMUNICATIONS (MS MAKGATO): Point of them when we try to advise that we cannot because it is order, Mr Speaker. No, he should not try to class me but unprocedural to do so. He should therefore differentiate answer my question. He should not think I do not have his reasons and stop being personal and show that he is the ability to comprehend anything, I will determine if stupid. I will not allow him to try and create this thing I can comprehend. I know a lot that he does not know. of showing that he is stupid, I do not understand what The fact that he is a lawyer does not mean anything. he is talking about. Some of us are also intelligent, we even have better HONOURABLER MEMBER: Stop playing suspect. marks than his. MS MAKGATO: I am not. You keep quiet. Honourable MR SPEAKER: No, do not fight Honourable Members. Rantuana, if you are stupid, accept your stupidity. I am Honourable Keorapetse, Honourable Makgato is asking telling Honourable Keorapetse that I am not stupid. why you think she cannot comprehend what you are talking about. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Makgato, order! Stop doing that. Switch off that microphone. MR KEORAPETSE: Mr Speaker, when you want the courts to deal with your matter and then act unethically MS MAKGATO: No, he should keep quiet. and in bad faith by going to other platforms and MR SPEAKER: No, switch off the microphone if you engaging in acts of self-help, it is not something that are talking to a different member. Order! Order! Do not I am prepared to do. If Honourable Makgato is not fight. Now you are using point of order and procedure prepared to understand that, I cannot help her. to fight and you want to include me in your fight. Use clarifications and corrections. I do not want to be MS MAKGATO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, he is involved in fights that I do not know where they started. trying to be smart and slide away to the fact that I cannot MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I will comprehend. I do not understand what is so difficult to leave that one. I was at the reform of the state media. comprehend in what he is saying. The thing is, he wants The Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) first ran to include me in his case when I was in fact asking elections in 1999, 2004, 2009, then 2014. After all these on behalf of Parliament, there is no how I was being elections, there were reports in which stakeholders were personal. He should leave me as a persona. It has nothing engaged and one of the things that are consistent is to do with me, my intellect and my ability to understand the use of the state media which is skewed in favour anything at all. I am saying this in Parliament as a of the ruling party. I am bringing up this point as a Parliamentarian. If he wants to be personal, he should conclusion that, it is important to allow political parties be clear and I will answer him personally. equal coverage, and this can only be achieved if the state media is reformed, if there is no interference with MR SPEAKER: I have ruled that you should avoid editorial independence of the state media. The state being personal. Honourable Keorapetse, do not fight. media ought to be a public enterprise.

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Mr Speaker in conclusion, I hope that all Members of of journalists and force them to comply with the law. It Parliament (MPs) across the aisle will legislate for the is a law that is untenable, it cannot be implemented. For good order and governance of the Republic by repealing instance, when you stand up, just please advise us on this unnecessary Act which has been with us for 10 which provisions you think should be amended because years. The promotion we seek to embark on is that of we are saying that the very existence of the law is at self-regulation which means that the state has no role in odds with the principles of self-regulation. What obtains trying to regulate the media. We do have Editors’ Forum in modern and progressive democracies is that the media and other entities. It is adequate that we have Section will self-regulate, it does not need the state to regulate it. 12 (1) and (2) guaranteeing freedom of expression, We warned in 2008 that if you pass this law, it will never including freedom to hold opinions. If we can remove be implemented because stakeholders will not agree Section 12 (2), which I think the Constitution basically to participate in its implementation. It is unfortunate, gives with the right hand and takes back under Section you can stand up and say point to the provisions, we 12 (2) … cannot point to any, you will assist us and point to those provisions because we are saying the very existence of MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR the law is at odds with self-regulation. I thank you and ARONE): On a point of clarification, Mr Speaker. move that this Bill be read a second time. Honourable Keorapetse, do you not think it is better to amend the whole Act instead of asking to repeal it? I do MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Members. not want to believe that we do not need everything that The floor is open. is contained in the Act as a country. Why not amend the problematic areas of the Act? ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC MR KEORAPETSE: Honourable Arone, go to all ADMINISTRATION (MR SHAMUKUNI): progressive democracies, that is why the media is called Thank you Mr Speaker. I do not support Honourable the fourth estate, meaning that we have the Executive, Keorapetse’s Bill and I plead with Honourable Members Legislature, Judiciary and then this one as the fourth to do the same with reasons. estate. Why now would you want to regulate this one as I do not agree with the Motion that says we should Parliament, for instance; where is the Executive? repeal it, if there were certain reasons why we should amend certain sections, I would support Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. Keorapetse. Certainly, I do not agree with the fact that MR KEORAPETSE: … it is ... we should repeal the Act.

DR P. BUTALE: Elucidation. Thank you very much Mr Mr Speaker, I am aware as Honourable Keorapetse Speaker. I just want to elucidate to say that the Media pointed out that, we started using this law in 2008 and it Practitioners Act is an archaic piece of legislation. is a long time. We are talking 11 years from now; eleven You cannot legislate, amend and panel beat it because years ago. conceptually, it is at odds with free media and even our Constitution that guarantees freedom of the media and MR SPEAKER: Order! We do not have a quorum. expression. It offends the idea of self-regulation and ...Silence... free and unfettered press because it seeks to accredit journalists, something that is only done in dictatorial MR SPEAKER: You are 20 and short of one member. countries. You emulate countries like Zimbabwe, that Someone came in. Order! is the only place where you can hear that you accredit journalists. MR SHAMUKUNI: Thank you Mr Speaker. As Honourable pointed out that we started using this law MR KEORAPETSE: It is the law as it is right now in 2008; 11 years ago, it has never been implemented. Honourable Arone, there is absolutely nothing you can We must note one thing Mr Speaker, that most of do about it apart from just repealing it. If you stand up the obstacles which hindered us from implementing and say we do not repeal the Act, I can assure you that this law are external to Government. You will realise no matter the sort of amendments that you can bring, it that when I say they are external to Government will never be implemented unless you violate the rights Honourable Keorapetse, we were supposed to establish

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an Independent Media Council which comprises MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Butale, next time of publishers of news and information. I am saying when you ask for procedure or for interruption, use what independent because the desire of the Act was that the is appropriate, do not argue with me, it is not good for Media Council should be independent and managed you. by that Executive Committee. The Interim Committee; Executive Committee which was formed, it never sat HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... to cause for an Annual General Meeting (AGM) which was going to... MR SPEAKER: You should either ask for correction or clarification not procedure because there is nothing DR P. BUTALE: Procedure. Mr Speaker, please which is out of procedure regarding what the Minister assist me because the Minister is on the floor and the said. It is wrong to use procedure to seek to interrupt information that he is giving is far from the truth. He him, ask for correction next time. is talking about independence of a committee, about Executive Committee which one of the queries of MR SHAMUKUNI: Honourable Butale, you must stop media is that it is a Government appointed Executive wasting my time, that was not procedure. Committee. We are also saying that Honourable Keorapetse says that there is a Media Council and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... Appeals Committee for the Media Council which DR P. BUTALE: Point of order. What Honourable organisations like Law Society says ... Member said is wrong, please withdraw. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Butale … HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... DR P. BUTALE: … we will not be involved in that because we do not think this law is right. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, another member can never waste your time, correct your statement. MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Butale. I want to hear the procedure. MR SHAMUKUNI: Mr Speaker, he rose on a point of procedure but clearly, I was not out of order. DR P. BUTALE: Yes, the procedure is that ...

MR SPEAKER: Do not prolong it. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He was trying to correct.

DR P. BUTALE: I am about to say the procedure, if MR SHAMUKUNI: Yes, he was trying to correct. It is only you can calm down Mr Speaker … only that I never said anything which was out of order.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Withdraw those words. The point I was trying to raise Mr Speaker, it is also dangerous for him to say that to me. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!) ... MR SPEAKER: What would have caused me not to be calm? MR SHAMUKUNI: The point I was trying to raise Mr DR BUTALE: I meant that if only you can give me a Speaker is that, we had to form an Interim Committee; chance. Executive Committee which was supposed to cause for an AGM and elect the Executive Committee. So the MR SPEAKER: Just say what you want to say because blame is not on the Government, that she is the one who I want to hear the procedure. made it not to sit because those who were supposed to DR P. BUTALE: Okay. Mr Speaker, we will be out of sit, who were voted are the ones who could not sit… procedure because some Members of Parliament made a (Interruptions)… for that AGM. All these factors as decision based on misinformation. The misinformation I indicate Mr Speaker, are external to Government. is that we are saying that there is the reason why this I want to indicate that the delay of implementation cannot be implemented. At the core of this Act, the is not because of Government, those are the people problem is that it is based on Government control of Honourable Keorapetse is talking about. I want to state the media. The relevant stakeholders such as the Law Mr Speaker that, as Government, we do subscribe to Society will never support it. It will never be used, so freedom of the press. It is there in the Constitution and let us repeal it all. as a Government …

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MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Correction Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Shamukuni. The law as it is, as a whole, it is at odds with the principle of self-regulation; HONOURABLE MEMBER: Order Mr Speaker. the media practitioners, publishers, journalists, Law MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR Society and anybody else who is not Government who is MADIGELE): On a point of correction. Mr Speaker, supposed to be a stakeholder in implementing this law, besides the source when the Honourable Member was it is clear; as long as you want to regulate the media, quoting, he included the word, “ke gore”. So I want to we will not participate. So exactly how do you think understand if at United Kingdom (UK) it was written as this law can be implemented? Which part do you want “ke gore”? amended in order for it to be implemented, because they are saying, the very attempt to regulate the media HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!) … is what they are against. So what sort of amendment MR SPEAKER: Honourable Shamukuni, correct your do you think they will agree with in saying, now let us statement, take the floor please. implement the law? MR SHAMUKUNI: Mr Speaker … MR SHAMUKUNI: Honourable Keorapetse, I will get to that when replying your Motion. I will get to MR SPEAKER: Order! Order Honourable Members. that. I want to draw your attention since you said we I believe Honourable Shamukuni will address all the should cite progressive democracies. I want to call concerns raised here when we continue with this Motion. your attention to a judicial pronouncement made by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council at United MOTION Kingdom. I want to quote something Mr Speaker; if I ADJOURNMENT may quote, it reads, “free speech does not mean free speech. Free speech is hedged in by all the laws against MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL defamation, blasphemy, sedition and so forth, ke gore it RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM means freedom governed by law.” (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, whilst Honourable Madigele is still in top form as he is, I move that this HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification House do now adjourn. I move accordingly. Honourable Member. Question put and agreed to. HONOURABLE MEMBER Clarification. The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! When I switch on the th microphone, you switch off yours. Honourable Minister, Wednesday 3 April, 2019 at 2:00 p.m. you said you are quoting from where, I did not get that?

MR SHAMUKUNI: Mr Speaker, it is a Judicial

Committee of the Privy Council which is at United Kingdom.

HONOURABLE MEMBER Clarification Mr Speaker.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MAJ. GEN. MOKGWARE: On a point of clarification. Minister, in your explanation do not forget to apprise us as to what you have done as the Government since this law was enacted in 2008 to date in 2019, to ensure that it is implemented. So as you explain, kindly do that so that this nation can know if you have done something.

MR SPEAKER: As you respond Minister, please reveal your source again because I want to understand exactly what you are saying.

40 Hansard No 193 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Ms T. Rantsebele, Mr M. Buti, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms Z. Molemi

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms. M. Sekao, Ms. M. Rabotsima, Ms. B. Mosinyi, Ms. V. Nkwane, Ms. N. Kerobale, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi

HANSARD LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

Hansard No 193 41