Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 20 MARCH 1980

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2823

THURSDAY, 20 MARCH 1980 Dam and, in view of the growing public concern in this matter- (!) How many cholera samples have been detected in Queensland in the past five years, what was their location and Mr. ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. W. D. on what date was each reported? Hewitt, Greenslopes) read prayers and took (2) What plans are under way involv­ the chair at 11 a.m. ing his department and possibly local authorities for a Statewide survey of all major river systems to determine the PAPERS extent of the cholera problem in Queens· land? The following papers were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:- Answers:- Reports- (!) In the past five years, Vibrio Rural Reconstruction Board 1978-1979. Cholerae has been detected in 107 Brisbane Market Trust 1978-1979. samples of water taken at the following locations by my oflkers- The following papers were laid on the McLeans Bridge, Logan River-4-4-77; table:- 12-4-77; 27-4-77; 1-6-77. Regulations under- Evergreen, Logan River-17-1-77; Industry and Commerce Training Act 12-4-77. 1979. Logan Village, Logan River-12-4-77; Workers' Compensation Act 1916-1979. 22-8-77; 13-3-78; 10-4-78. Paynes Bridge, Logan ~iver-12-4-77; 27-4-77; 5-5-77. PETIHONS Cedar Grove Road, Logan River- 20-4-77; 17-1-78. 1l1e Clerk announced the receipt of the Il-Bogan Bridge, Logan River- following petitions- 28-2-78; 20-3-78. Josephville Road Bridge, Logan River -10-4-78. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION Neville Road, Logan River-12-4-77. From Mr. Prest (12 signatories) praying Williams Bridge, Logan River-8-5-78. that the Parliament of Queensland will ensure that the Select Committee on Educa­ Boyland, Canungra Creek-20-3-78; tion recommendations with regard to sex 28-3-78. education be rejected. Mundoolan Bridge, Albert River- 21-2-78; 28-2-78; 20-3-78; 28-3-78. [Similar petitions were received from Mr. Scassola (306 signatories) and Mr. Booth (36 Plunkett Bridge, Albert River- and 14 signatories).] 23-2-77; 27-2-77; 1-3-77; 2-3-77; 4-3-77; 23-3-77; 23-3-77; 13-4-77; 26-4-77; 7-2-78. Chardon's B>ridge, Ailbert River- PROTECTION OF UNBORN QUEENSLANDERS 23-2-77; 2-3-77; 3-3-77; 4-3-77; 28-3-77; KILLED BY ABORTION 26-4-77; 20-3-78. Luscombe Weir, Albert River- From Mr. Booth (31 signatories) praying 22-2-77; 22-2-77; 27-2-77; 28-2-77; 28-2-77; that the Parliament of Queensland will take 1-3-77; 2-3-77; 3-3-77; 4-3-77; 5-3-77; action to protect the Eves of unborn Queens­ 6-3-77; 7-3-77; 8-3-77; 9-3-77; 10-3-77; land children being killed by abortion. 14-3-77; 16-3-77; 16-3-77; 16-3-77; 17-3-77; [A similar petition was received from Mr. 17-3-77; 17-3-77; 17-3-77; 28-3-77; 28-3-17; Jones (28 signatories).] 28-3-77; 28-3-77; 28-3-77; 28-3-77; 4-4-77; 18-4-77; 4-5-77. Petitions read and received. Stanmore Road crossing, Albert River -22-3-77; 23-3-77; 21-11-77; 19-12-77; 4-1-78; 4-1-78; 4-1-78; 7-2-78. Yatala, Albert River-20-3-78. QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE Chiltern Springs, Albert River- 1. DETECriON OF CHOLERA ORGANISMS 23-3-77; 23-3-77. Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the Karen Court swimming hole, Albert ll1inister for Health- River-23-2-77. \Vith rc:erence to the latest detection Gully outlet into A1bert River, King­ of cholera organisms in the North Pine horn property-28-2-77. 2824 Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice

Mundoolan property, Albert River- Brisbane River, Mt. Beppo-15-1-80. 26-2-77. Brisbane River, Linville-31-1-SO. South edge of Mundoolan property, North Pine Dam-raw water-13-3-80. Albert River-26-2-77. Old Mundoolan Weir, north of Mun­ (2) Since 5 February 1980, State health doolan property-1-3-77. inspectors have taken 322 samples from major river intake points of reticulated 200 m north of old Mundoolan Weir, water supplies and from popular aquatic Albert River-1-3-77. recreation areas throughout the State. State 100 m north of old Mundoolan Weir, health insp~'ctors are to inspect and report Albert River-1-3-77. on every public domestic water supply and Spiddal property, Albert Rh-er- treatment plant throughout the State. 28-2-77. Local authorities are being requested to forward samples from water supply intakes Stanmore crossing, Albert Rivcr- at three-monthly intervals for cholera 4-2-80. examination. Health officers and State Below Luscombe Weir, Albert River- health inspectors will continue to survey 4-2-80; 3-3-80. and sample the Albert, Logan and Bris­ Intake Point, Luscombe Weir, Albert bane River systems at two-weekly inter­ River-4-2-80. vals and are presently surveying and sampling the Pine River system. Above Luscombe Weir, Albert River- 3-3-80. Mundoolan Bridge, Albert River- 4-2-80. 2. BEEF CATTLE INDUSTRY 1st Crossing, Linville, Brisbane River Mr. C.asey, pursuant to notice, asked the -18-2-80. Minister for Primary Industries- Kholo crossing centre, Brisbane River -19-2-80. (!) How many export rncatworks are there in Queensland that (a) have com­ Kholo crossing, North Bank, Brisbane menced the killing season but have sub­ River-19-2-80. sequently stopped operating, (b) are Kholo crossing, South Bank, Brisbane operating on a reduced kill quota, and (c) River-25-2-80; 27-2-80. have not commenced the c.cason at all? 50 metres upstream, Cooyar Creek, (2) Has the current cut-back in the beef Brisbane River-25-2-80. killing season been caused by (a) a short­ I! Bogan, Albert River-3-3-80. age of catde or (b) lack of buyer support because meat export companies have not In the past five years Vibrio Cholerae been able to secure sufficient export has been detected in 40 samples of water orders? taken at the following locations by officers of the Brisbane City Council:- (3) In Yiew of the fact that the beef industry in Queensland is again facing a Bulimba Creek, downstream Mt. crisis situation, what action is the State Gravatt sewage treatment plant-29-3-78. Government now prepared to take to Bulimba Creek, upstream Mt. Gravatt properly implement its own legislation sewage treatment plant-3-5-78; 8-5-78. to provide for a proper beef stabilisation Mt. Gravatt sewage treatment plant scheme in Queensland? before chlorination-18-4-78; 19-4-78. Mt. Ommaney sewage treatment plant Answers:- effluent-8-5-78. (I) My inquiries reveal that of the 30 Brisbane River, Kholo-18-4-78; export registered abattoirs in Queensland, 12-12-78; 14-2-80. six have not commenced operations this Brisbane River, Wivenhoe-21-11-78. season, one commenced but subsequently Brisbane River, Murrumba-18-4-78; ceased operations and all other abattoirs, 15-1-80. with the exception of one, are operating at reduced capacity. Mt. Crosby raw water-26-11-78; 27-11-78; 28-11-78; 3-12-78; 4-12-78; (2) It is my understanding that the 12-12-78; 3-1-79; 9-1-79; 10-1-79; 20-2-80; United States market in particular is rather 29-2-80; 2-3-80; 3-3-80; 9-3-80; 13-3-80; hesitant at the present time and beef 14-3-80. imports from Australia are moving very Mt. Crosby combined filter effluent- slowly into that market. The importers are 25-2-80; 2-3-80; 13-3-80. showing some reluctance to rebuild their Holts Hill effiuent-29-2-80; 2-3-80. beef stocks and no doubt this reflects the economic climate in the Cnited States. Mt. Crosby filter effluents-No. 12 Filter, 10-3-80; No. 14 Filter, 10-3-80; Additionally, I believe th~Cre is a shortage No. 20 Filter, 12-3-80; No. 1 Filter, of marketable caitle in Queensland at the 13-3-80. present time, not ony as a r~'cilt of the Questions Upon Notice (20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2825

drought conditions prevailing in many had from time to time to the employment parts of the State, but also because of the and other aspects of day-labour construc­ reduced numbers of cattle following heavy tion, and a judicious balance must be main­ slaughterings in recent years. tained between both systems for the maxi­ mum benefit of all concerned. (3) The question of the provision of a beef stabilisation scheme in Queensland (2) The appointment of a parliamentary has been, and still is, under investigation. select committee to inquire into these Numerous proposals have been examined matters is not necessary. with a view to evolving a workable scheme which would then be referred to the beef industry in general for consideration. 5. RESTORATION OF HORNIBROOK H:GHV. AY

3. ROAD PRIORITIES, CABOOLTURE SHIRE Mr. Ahem for Mr. T. A. \Vhlte, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister f,Jr Local Mr. Frawley, pursuant to notice, asked the Government and Main Roads- Minister for Local Government and Main Roads- With reference to the restClration of the old Hornibrook Highwav- Has the Caboolture Shire Council sub­ mitted an up-to-date list of priorities for (1) What are the relevant details and secondary roads in the Caboolture Shire progress of the current inwstigation of and, if so, what is that list? the bridge? (2) When is it likely that :he bridge Answer:- will be open again to traffic·: The priorities for permanent works on secondary roads in Caboolture Shire Answer:- requested by that council are based on a list submitted in 1976, which has been (1 & 2) As the honourable member will amended on several occasions since then. be aware, the new Houghton Highway has I will supply details to the honourable adequate capacity to cope with present member in writing. traffic volumes and is providing a good level of service. Work is proceeding on investi­ gation and repairs to 12 spans of the 294 spans in the old Hornibrook Highway. 4. TENDERS FOR PUBLIC 'NORKs; APPOINT­ Until this investigation is C\Jmplete, esti­ MENT OF SELECT COMMITTEES mates made and availability of funding Mr. Ahern for Mr. T. A. White, pursuant considered, it is not possibk to indicate to notice, asked the Premier- a likely date of reopening. With reference to the Government's strong confirmation of the free-enterprise system and his own personal reputation 6. QUEENSLAND TOU!UST AND TRAVEL as a supporter of private enterprise- CORPORATION (1) Is he aware that (a) most road­ Mr. J'ones, pursuant to notice, asked the works in this State are carried out by Minister for Maritime Services and Tourism- Government construction without tenders Since the inauguration of the Queens­ being called, (b) the Queensland Water land Tourist and Travel Corporation on Resources Commission carries out exten­ 1 1\ugust 1979- sive works without calling for public ten­ ders, and (c) Queensland Railways carries (1) How many employees of that out track upgrading and maintenance organisation have (a) left the corporation, without calling tenders? (b) resigned, (c) been deployed to other sections of the public service, and (d) (2) If so, will he support the appoint­ indicated a desire or opted to return to ment of a parliamentary select committee the Public Service ranks? to inquire into the above matters and report to Parliament on (a) the efficiency (2) How many of those positions so of the present system and (b) what public vacated have been filled? accountability should be required in respect to the expenditure of public funds by (3) Has there been a predominance of Government instrumentalities? public servants selected to fill the vacancies and, if so, what are the criteria for appoint­ ments? Answers:- (!) It is, of course, my Government's (4) Have appointees to the key manage­ policy to assist the private sector in these ment positions vacated been filled by other matters where it is satisfied that the end than public servants and, if so, has this result produces a more efficient and more action been contrary to stipulated policy economical service for the State and its that preference for promotion would be people. On the other hand, regard must be given to personnel within the organisation? 2826 Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- Answers:- (!) (a) 42 have left, compnsmg resigna­ (1)- tions and redeployment as follows; (b) 11 Families-lOO points, 1; 80 points, 1; have resigned from the Public Service :but 40 points, 85; Nil points, 103. 2 of these have remained as employees of (2)- the corporation; (c) 31 redeployed; (d) in addition to the above, a fur,ther 21 are Pensioners-Couple, 17; Single, 33. awaiting redeployment-a total of 52. 1978-79 1979-80 (2) 26. (to date) (3) Yes. Fourteen of the 26 positions Families 54 56 vacated were filled by promoting existing Pensioners .. 17 members of staff and of the remaining 12, 10 were base-grade positions filled by out­ side recruitment. Five of these were (3)- school-Ieavers employed in the cadet 1979-80 training scheme which ,was introduced. 11978-79 (to date) The criteria for appointment were (a) Re-nt_a_lh_o_u_s-es-.-.--. -. I 13 29 experience, educational qualifications, special training 1where relevant, general (b) Pensioner units Nil 14 ability and potential, specific skills, (c) Co-operative societies Nil 4 completed personality factors, motivation, length of 8 more approved tourist bureau service, and knowledge o.f 20 Queensland :where relevant. (d) Other .. (4) Some positions-for example, general In addition 19 houses are under con­ manager, marketing manager, and sales struction, 1 apjJ'l'oved but not started promotions officer, which position has been and 3 at tender stage. restructured-have been filled by other than public servants, but this is because the (4) 1 pensioner site to accommodate particular skills required were not available 20-25 units; 8 house sites; 70 house sites amongst existing staff. being developed; 230 (approximately) house sites for future development. Other key positions have been filled by public servants-(a) Operations and Deputy (5) Figures on Housing Commission General Manager; (b) Marketing Develop­ schemes are contained in (1), (2), (3) and ment Manager; (c) Secretary to the board; (4) above. I have no information on the (d) Manager, Adelaide; (e) Manager, Bris­ Commonwealth Scheme under the Aged bane; (f) Manager, Melbourne. .and Disabled Homes Act or the Aged Persons Hostels Act. :It is the corporation's policy to promote from within where possible. All job vacancies are advertised initially within the 8. QUEENSLAND OPERA COMPANY organisation. Mr. Innes, pursuant to notice, asked .the Minister for Culture, National Parks and 7. HousiNG CoMMISSION AccoMMODATION, Recreation- CAIRNS Will he reassure concerned Queens­ Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked the landers that the Queensland Opera Com­ Minister for Works and Housing- pany will continue and that its recently (1) How many applications for housing demonstrated world-class standards are accommodation in their respective cate­ likely to be available to grace the new gories of priority are at present registered cultural centre and delight Queenslanders as outstanding with the Queensland Hous­ and other Australians throughout the ing Commission through the Clerk of the '80s? Court, Cairns? (2) How many rental houses have been Answer:- allocated for the year to 30 June 1979 The Government recently demonstrated and to date this financial year? its faith in the Queensland Opera Com­ (3) During the same period how many pany's future and in its capabilities by (a) new houses, (b) pensioner units, (c) providing a special developmental grant of houses through co-operative societies, and $150,000 to enable it to further improve (d) houses through other funding were the quality of its productions and to erected? expand its activities throughout the State. (4) How many building sites are pre­ This special assistance was in addition to sently held at Cairns for commission the 1979-80 annual grant of $234,000 and requirements? the free annual orchestral services pro­ (5) How many applications for units vided by the Queensland Theatre under the Dwellings for Aged Persons Orchestra. Scheme are at present registered as out­ We believe that the Queensland Opera standing and how many have been alloc­ Company will contmue its contribution cated cYer the same periods? to the State's cultural life. We expect Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2827

that it, and other major performing arts Answer:- companies, will now be considering in ( I to 3) Yes, I travel this road fre­ their forward-planning programmes presen­ quently and am familiar with the varying tations at the Performing Arts Complex in speed limits. I will arrange for the the Queensland Cultural Centre and, Commissioner for Transport to take this indeed, in other major cultural complexes matter up with the Commissioner of Main in the State. Roads, as suggested by the honourable member. In due course I shall advise the honourable member. 9. LAD PORTERS, RAILWAY DEPARTMENT Mr. Innes, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport- 11. PRE-EMPLOYMENT COURSES, GOLD (!) Is there a by-law, regulation 'or CoAsT ScHOOLs policy in the Railways Department that Mr. Gygar for Mr. P. N. D. White, pur­ excludes a young person who wears spec­ suant to notice, asked the Minister for tacles which correct his vision to normal Education- from meeting the requirements needed With reference to his press statement of an applicant to become a lad porter? released on 3 March relating to pre­ (2) If so, in a day and age when employment courses to be introduced in Queensland's Sheffield Shield wicket-keeper certain secondary schools, are there any and the West Indian's cricket captain wear Gold Coast schools nominated to conduct spectacles, can this by-law, regulation or these courses? policy be justified, assuming that an applicant passes the necessary entrance Answer:- examinations and is physically strong Schools are now being asked to submit enough for the work? applications for approval to conduct courses. Such approvals in the first half Answers:- of this year will be limited. Additional (!) The long-standing policy of the approvals will be given in the second half department is that lad porters, as well as of the year. certain other junior employees, must meet Until those applications have been a standard of unaided vision of 6/6 in one received and the school submissions eye, 6/9 in the other and 6/6 with both examined, it is not possible to state which eyes open. schools will receive approvals to conduct (2) This policy is justified by reason of courses. It is anticipated that the first the fact that a lad porter is employed in approvals will be given in April. an operational area which would bring him into contact with the movement of trains. I have asked for this policy to be reviewed. 12. GoLD CoAsT TRANSPORTATION STUDY Mr. Ahern for Mr. P. N. D. White, pur­ suant to notice, asked the Minister for Local 10. ROAD SIGNS INDICATING SPEED LIMITS Government and Main Roads- Mr. Innes, pursuant to notice, asked the (!) What is the estimated date for the Minister for Transport- completion of the Gold Coast Transporta­ (!) Is he familiar with the speed limits tion Study? applying along Ipswich Road between (2) Is it proposed to table this study Brisbane and Ipswich where speed limits vary backwards and forwards between in this House? 60 km/h, 70 km/h, 80 km/h and 100 km/h without apparent differences in the con­ Answer:- dition of the divided highway and without (! & 2) It is anticipated that the Gold significant change in the adjacent built-up Coast Transportation Study will be com­ area? pleted in June of this year. It is expected that a public presentation of the report will (2) Is he aware of the ease with which be made to the local authorities involved a basically law-abiding person who is con­ and subsequently a copy will be made centrating on overtaking, or is being over­ available to the Parliamentary Library and taken or sees some other problem on the road ahead, can miss a sign indicating a other technical libraries. change of speed and break the law? (3) Will he have his officers, in liaison 13. STUDENT ALLOWANCE with officers of the Main Roads Depart­ ment, if appropriate, investigate the Mr. Warburton, pursuant to notice, asked problem on this and other divided high­ the lVfinister for Education- ways and consider a basic speed limit, a Cl) What is the present yearly normal reduction in the number of alternative student allowance for students aged eight speed limits and the erection of regularly to twelve years, and what was the yearly spaced reminder signs on stretches of road allowance for each of the years 1970 to where a different speed limit applies? 1979 inclusive? 2828 Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice

(2) Ir: the case of an applicant with income which is the determinent for two dependent children, what is the eligibility for the student allowance from present familv income limit and what was my department. the family ii1eome limit for the Eastern (4) I am aware that the matter has District in the Southern Division for each been considered in the past and it is my of the years 1970 to 1979 inclusive? intention to seek a further review. (3) Is it correct that parents in receipt of a total income of only $90 per week and who have two dependent children are not eligible for normal student allow­ 14. RAILWAY CARRIAGES, BRISBANE- ance? SHOHNCLIFFE LINE ( 4) Will he advise of any action being Mr. Warburton, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Transport- taken ~o lift the amount of the normal student ailowance and to set the familv (!) Is he aware of the passenger ill­ income limits at more appropriate levels? feeling about the condition of railway car­ riages used on the City-Shorncliffe line? Anilven-:- (2) Why are the thousands of train travellers commuting weekly on the busy (1) Student :::llowance is based on the Shorncliffe-City rail service now forced to level of education of a child and is available travel in old, dirty wooden suburban and under certain conditions for students long distance carriages instead of suburban undertaking Years 8 to 12. The age of a stainless steel carriages previously used on student is not taken into consideration that service? when a.,ccrtaining eligibility for the allow­ ance. To be eligible, a student must be (3) If he cannot see his way clear to undertaking Years 8 to 12 or equivalent give workers and shoppers fmm the Sand­ thereof. The student allowance from 1970 gate and Redcliffe districts decent car­ to the beginning of the 1972 school year riages in which to travel, will he at least was awa;dcd as follows:- take action to ensure that the carriages Grade Living Living away used are clean and well maintained? at home from home per per Answer:·- annum annum (1 to 3) Since September 1979, only two 8, 9, 10 $32 $130 complaints have been registered regarding 11 $40 $164 dirty suburban railway carriages. Approx­ 12 $40 $208 imately 200 railway cleaners are employed throughout the metropolitan area to attend Ti1e student allowance was ,increased at to carriages. the beginning of the 1972 school year to $54 per annum for all students living at The introduction of the cross-river con­ home and $222 per annum for students nection in 1978 affected the working of living away from home. These amounts the stainless-steel carriages, which pre­ stand at present. viously were captive on certain lines in the northern suburbs. They now con­ (2) The means test applicable for an tinue on "through" rail services from the applicant \vith two dependent children in northern to the southern suburbs and the the Eastern District in the Southern Divi­ older-type wooden coaches, which were sion from 1972 until the present time is previously captive on the southside lines, tabulated hereunder:- now correspondingly continue through to 1972, $2,350 per annum; 1973, $2,462 the northern suburbs. per annum; 1974, $2,628 per annum; Whilst planning provides for the progres­ 1975, $2,898 per annum; 1976, $3,158 per sive withdrawal of wooden coaches as annum: 1977, $3,538 per annum; 1978, electric trains are introduced into service, $4,110 per annum; 1979, $4,354 per increased passenger patronage on suburban annum; 1980, $4,650 per annum. trains in peak hours throughout the metro­ The figures for the years 1970 and 1971 politan area has prevented this being done are not readily available. to date. In actual fact, additional trains (3) Assistance provided by the student have been scheduled to cope with this allowance scheme is for parents who, by increased patronage. Queensland standards are financially dis­ Also, at this interim stage of the electri­ advantaged. The Queensland standard is fication construction programme, there is defined as the State basic wage as deter­ a loss of some flexibility in the use of mined from time to time by the State stainless-steel coaches on certain lines, Industrial Commission. including the Shorncliffe line. It is possible for parents who receive The work in connection with electri­ a total income of $90 per week to receive fication of the Shorncliffe line is now in student allowance for their children. The progress and every endeavour is being made allowance would be granted in these cir­ to maintain the cleanliness and appearance cumstances after deductions for various of the wooden coaches until they can be types of expenditure were taken from the progressively replaced by new electric trains $90 per week to give the adjusted family coming on stream. Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2829

15. TRUST AccOUNT IRREGULARITIES In respect of the former, the practitioner Mr. Gygar, pursuant to notice, asked the must rectify the position forthwith and Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- there is no good reason why the names of solicitors in this situation should be (!) When defalcations or shortfalls are published. discovered in solicitors' trust accounts, are the principals of firms involved obliged Deficiencies involving misappropriation to report these matters to the Justice are dealt with by the Queensland Law Department, Law Society, or any other Society Incorporated. The practitioner body? involved is charged before the statutory committee and invariably struck off the (2) Can the individuals or firms involved roll of solicitors. in trust account irregularities avoid pub­ licity, prosecution or other Government The findings and order of the statutory action by attempting to repay trust account committee are served on me within seven shortfalls once they are discovered and, days of their being made. if so, will he extend this privilege to Within 30 days of receiving the findings bankers, real estate agents, company and order, I may appeal to the court if secretaries and others involved in financial I am of the opinion that the solicitor dea:lings in the community? has not been adequately punished. (3) How common are trust account When a solicitor is ohar.ged in respect deficiencies in the legal profession, how of a deficiency in his trust account and many incidents have been discovered in subsequently struck off or suspended from the last six months and what are the names practice, his name is published in both of the firms or individuals involved? the daily Press and in the professional journal of the Queensland Law Society Incorporated. Answers:- Any possible breaches of the Criminal (1) There is no requirement under the Code are reported to the Fraud Squad provisions of the Trust Accounts Act for investigation. 1973-1978 for the principal of a firm of solicitors to report to the Justice Depart­ (3) Deficiencies caused by misappmpria­ ment or the Queensland Law Society tion are extremely uncommon. There have Incorporated when a defa1cation or short­ been three such cases in the ,last five years, fall is discovered in the solicitor's trust but none in the last six months. account. During the period in question, one case The trust accounts of solicitors are sub­ of a deficiency caused by using incorrect ject to audit by qualified independent procedures has been detected by the accountants twice in each financial period accountant from the Queensland Law of six months. So,ciety Incorporated. At the end of each financial period when There had been no :loss o·ccasioned in the ,trust accounting records are produced this matter, which is still under considera­ to the independent accountant for audit tion by the Law Society. they must be accompanied by a statement I invite the attention of the Leader of signed by the solicitor or, in the case of the Opposition to that answer, because he a partnership, every member of the firm does not seem to understand trust accounts. stating- ( a) whether the accounts are true and correct; 16. UsE IN SCHOOLS OF FILMS ON SoVIET (b) whether all moneys received by UNION the trustees during the financia1 period Mr. Gygar, pursuant to notice, asked the in que>!ion and which constitute trust Minister for Education- moneys have been lodged to the credit of a trust bank account and disclosed to (!) Has the recently released series of the auditor for the purpose of the audit; four films produced by Film Australia on (c) whether the moneys referred to the Soviet Union been appmved by the have been applied for the purposes for Education Department for use in Queens­ which they were so received or are still land Schools? retained in a trust account. (2) In view of widespread criticism of The auditor is required to report any the obsequious and servile praise for the Communist Government of Russia and its irregularities to the Under Secretary and so-called achievements which are contained the Queensland Law Society Incorporated in the brochure for the film, will he assure within seven days of becoming aware of such matters. the House that the films are not used in Queensland schools until such time as they (2) Trust account deficiencies fall into have been thoroughly reviewed and a two categories-those ,caused inadvertently handbook is prepared which gives a critical by incorrect accounting procedures or assessment of the Russian system to banking errors and those caused by mis­ counter the pro-Soviet propaganda which appropriation. apparently forms the basis of these films? 86501-97 2830 Questions Upon Notice (20 MARCH 1980) Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- (2 & 3) I am aware of the comments made by Mr. Justice Connolly in respect ( I) No. Five films, not four, produced of sentences for dangerous driving causing by Film Australia on various aspects of death. life in the Soviet Union, and distributed by the Australian Film Commission, have The honourable member, however, recently been received by my department's should be aware that each case must be film library. The commission deposits such looked at in the light of its own facts films with a number of film libraries around and to generalise on meagre newspaper .the world, including that administered by reports would be to judge without a full my department, free of charge with the knowledge of all relevant circumstances, expectation that they will be made avail­ including circumstances of mitigation. able to schools and other non-school bor­ The law allows courts a discretion as rowers. to the punishment which is to be imposed, and it is not for me to ordain what sen­ (2) Procedures have been set up to tences judges should impose. review all films received whether by gift or purchase. The purpose of this review I have power, which I frequently exer­ process is, in general terms, to provide cise, of appealing against sentences advice to borrowers on the appropriateness imposed by trial judges. This is the sole of the film for their needs. Such a review avenue available in law to me of regulating is presently under way with respect to sentences. the films in question. Until this action is complete', I would not prejudge the films on the basis of the publicity issued by the 18. TEACHERS, EARLY EDUCATIO:'\IAL commission. However, it is not normal INTERVENTION PI

Answer:- (c) Chairman, Mr. W. R. Drynan and Although considerable progress has been members, Messrs J. J. Fanning, G. J. F. made on this section of the South East Ezzy, J. A. Mitchell and A. E. P. Mort, Freeway, I am not yet in a position to and the Land Commissioner, Toowoomba, give the honourable member the actual ex officio. date of the official opening of this section. (d) The current members of the Stock However, as soon as I can I will certainly Routes and Rural Lands Protection Board make the information available to him. are as follows:- R. Wicks, Chairman; R. J. Critchton, nominee of the United Graziers' Associa­ tion of Queensland (Union of 20. OPERATIONS OF RURAL STATUTORY Employers); J. A. MacTaggart, nominee BODIES of the United Graziers' Association of Mr. Scassola, pursuant to notice, asked Queensland (Union of Employers); C. the Minister for Lands, Forestry and Water G. J. Emery, nominee of the Queensland Resources- Graingrowers' Association; K. A. Day, nominee of the Queensland Cane Grow­ Cl) Who are the current members of ers' Association; V. J. Coggan, nominee the (a) Rabbit Central Authority, (b) of the Council of Agriculture; P. A. Rab'?it Central Advisory Committee, (c) Buchanan, nominee of the Queensland Darlmg Downs-Moreton Rabbit Board Dairymen's State Council; D. C. Stur­ and (d) Stock Routes and Rural Land~ rock, O.B.E., nominee of the Local Gov­ Protection Board? ernment Association of Queensland (2) When did each of those bodies last (Incorporated); J. R. Conochan, nom­ meet? inee of the Local Government Associa­ tion of Queensland (Inwrporated); C. R. (3) What is the annual budget of each Clarke, nominee of the Cattlemen's of the boards? Union of Australia; B. A. Woolcock, Deputy Director (Field Services), Division (4) To whom is each of the boards of Animal Industry, Department of responsible and when did each of them Primary Industries; L. G. Lawrence, last furnish a report? Chief Commissioner of Lands, Depart­ (5) What are the statutory powers of ment of Lands; J. T. Donohue, Execu­ each body? tive Director, Stock Routes and Rural Lands Protection Board.

Answers:- (2) (a) 29 January 1980. (1) (a) Chairman of the Land Adminis­ (b) The last officially recorded meetings tration Commission who is also the ex offi­ of the Rabbit Control Advisory Commit­ cio chairman of the authority; and mem­ tees were:- bers, Mr. E. G. Savage, grazier, and Mr. (i) 17 December 1974; (ii) 6 December E. J. Hammond, grazier. 1974; (iii) 6 August 1973; (iv) 3 April (b) There are four Rabbit Control 1974. Advisory Committees, namely:- The committees have a continuing (i) Charleville-the composition of this involvement and the Chief Rabbit Con­ committee is chairman, Chief Rabbit trol Officer has had discussions at various Control Officer (Mr. M. McMannus)· .times s;nce the last recorded meeting with members-Councillm R. W. Somerfielcl members of the committees. It is pro­ (Quilpie Shire) and Councillor D. R. posed to continue to do so and convene Utting (Murweh Shire). meetings as may be required. (ii) Goondiwindi-the composition of (c) 14 February 1980. this committee is chairman, Chief Rabbit Control Officer (Mr. M. McMannus)· (d) The date of last meeting was 13 members-Councillor C. J. Potter (Ingle: December 1979, and .the committee is wood Shire) and Councillor R. C. Cham­ meeting again today. bers (Waggamba Shire). (iii) Cunnamulla-the composition of (3) (a) $511,709 which includes an this committee is chairman, Chief Rabbit amount of $243,365 to be dispersed to the Control Officer (Mr. M. McMannus); Darling Downs-Moreton Rabbit Board. members-Councillor N. V. Sherwin (Bulloo Shire) and Councillor N. B. (b) Nil. Moody (Paroo Shire). (c) $250,960 which includes reimburse­ (iv) Roma-the composition of this ment to the extent of $243,365 from the committee is chairman, Chief Rabbit Rabbit Control Fund. Control Officer (Mr. M. McMannus); members-Councillor A. T. Leahy (Ben­ (d) The board has no actual budget as demere Shire) and Councillor J. W. N. such but operates under two trust funds Walrnsley (Booringa Shire). and certain Consolidated Revenue Votes 2832 Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice

administered through my Department of the Stock Routes and Rural Lands Pro­ Lands. The budget for 1979-80 envisages tection Act and functions under .that Act the expenditure of the following funds:- and the Barrier Fences Act. Barrier Fence Trust Fund $429,508 It makes recommendations to me, as the Stock Routes and Pest Minister administering both those Acts, on Destruction Fund $2,589,966 matters relating to the construction and Consolidated Revenue maintainance of stock route water facilities, Votes for control of control of declared vermin and noxious vermin and noxious plant species, the administration of the plants and research dingo barrier fence, and projects for into biological con­ research into vermin control and the trol of certain noxi- control and the chemical and biological ous weeds . . $551,856 control of noxious plants. Loan Funds for stock routes water facili- 21. QUEENSLAND ELECTRICITY SUPPLY ties $103,000 INDUSTRY EMPLOYEES' SuPERANNUATION (4) (a) The Honourable the Minister for SCHEME Lands, Forestry and Water Resources. Mr. Vaughan, pursuant to notice. asked (b) The Rabbit Control Authority. the Minister for Mines, Energy and Police- (c) The Honourable the Minister for With reference to the Queensland Lands, Forestry and Water Resources. Electricity Supply Industry Employees' As far as (a), (b) and (c) are concerned Superannuation Scheme as provided for in there is not statutory requirement to fur­ the Electdcity Act of 1976, and as, accord­ nish reports, but I am kept informed of ing to the State Electricity Commission their activities through the Rabbit Control annual report 1978/79, the final draft Authority. of the articles was adopted by the Queens­ (d) The Stock Routes and Rural Lands land Electricity Supply Industry Super­ Protection Board is directly responsible to annuation Board in May, 1979; as the me in my capacity as Minister for Lands articles have been approved by the eight and furnishes an annual report which is electricity boards and the trustees of all presented to Parliament as well as report­ existing superannuation and provident ing periodically to me personally. The funds; and as the articles were presented annual report for the year 1978-79 was to the State Electricity Commission for dated 21 September 1979 and was pre­ submission to him and the Governor in sented to Parliament. Council in November, 1979- (5) (a) The functions of the Rabbit Con­ (1) What is holding up approval of the trol Authority are detailed in section 12 articles? of the Rabbit Act 1964-1972, which (2) When can the employees in the requires the authority to control and reduce Queensland electricity supply industry the infestation of the control area by expect their superannuation scheme to rabbits with the object of freeing and commence operation? maintaining free from such infestation such control area. The section also sets (3) Is he aware that many employees out the responsibilities of the authority in in the Queensland electricity supply indus­ meeting that requirement. try who are returned soldiers could be severely disadvantaged if the new scheme (b) Advisory committees are established is delayed much longer? by the provisions of section 11 of the Rabbit Act 1964-1972, and the functions Answers:- are primarily to recommend to the auth­ (1) The proposed benefit prov1s10ns ority the programmes of works for the need to be fully considered by the Gov­ destruction of rabbits to be carried out ernment, particularly as regards any con­ in each division. flict with other public authority super­ The committee shall also furnish an annuation oohemes. estimate of the cost of carrying out the (2) Once there is agreement between the works and shall carry out any other func­ tions as required or directed by the Min­ Government and the superannuation board ister or the Rabbit Control Authority. on the provis,ions of the articles. (c) The functions of the Darling Downs (3) Where there is a proposal to improve Rabbit Board are detailed in section 20 benefits, a delay of any kind disadvantages of the Rabbit Act 1964-1972, which employees and, of course, this concerns requires that board to ensure that owners me a lot. I am not aware that returned of holdings situated in the district main­ soldiers are specially disadvantaged. tain their holdings free from rabbits and maintain the rabbit check fence in rabbit­ 22. POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN proof condition. ELECTRICAL TRANSFORMERS The responsibilities of the board to carry Mr. Vaughan, pursuant to notice, asked out these functions are also recited. the Minister for Mines, Energy and Police- (d) The Stock Routes and Rural Lands (1) What action is being taken in Protection Board was constituted under relation to the polychlorina:ted biphenyls Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2833

which are contained in a large number Toombul Road"Sandgate Road and various of electrical transformers throughout the connections between Sandgate Road and Brisbane area and stored at New Farm? Gympie Road. Possible upgradings to sev­ (2) Is it true that there is no means eral of these links were included in the of destroying this material in Australia? proposal but final works to be undertaken will be in accordance with resulting traffic (3) Is it true that electrical equipment generated. containing this insulating fluid is banned from food-processing factories because (2) The timing of the works referred to overseas countries have laid down strict above, following the completion of stage precautions in this regard? 1 in 1985, will depend on the volume of traffic using the Gateway Bridge and the (4) What safety precautions are being extent of funds received by Main Roads taken to protect the health of persons Department by way of royalties. If traffic required to work on electrical equipment volumes are substantial, then these works containing this fluid? could be commenced shortly after the (5) Is any action being taken in relation opening of the bridge in 1985. to persons who, through their work, have (3) There is no current proposal for the come in contact with the material pre­ cons-truction of a main road linking the viously? new bridge with Sandgate. However, the option for such is under examination. Answers:- (1) The South East Queensland Electl'ic­ ity Board is investigating the disposal of 24. DENTAL SERVICES, CoUNTRY SCHOOLS this material. Mr. Gunn, pursuant to notice, asked the (2) Yes. However, the Waste Authority Minister for Health- of New South Wales is investigating the With reference to my question to him in disposal of this ma·terial in a special the last session of Parliament expressing furnace. concern at the lack of dental attention by (3) I have no knowledge of this. school dental clinics to schoolchildren in a number of country schools in my (4) All possible precautions are being electorate and his answer that some elec­ taken to ensure the safety of employees trical problems existed at these schools and the public. and technicians were trying to overcome (5) Medical checks recently taken on the problems, are ,these schools now being employees who came in contact with this visited by dental clinics on a regular basis? material proved negative. Answer:- The Division of Dental Services in con­ 23. ROAD-WORKS, GATEWAY BRIDGE junction with the Division of Health and Mr. Vaughan, pursuant to notice, asked the Medical Physics has conducted successful Minister for Local Government and Main trials with modified mobile dental clinics Roads- which may be opera-ted on standard elec­ With reference to the news item in the trical outlets, and a number of mobile Press on 5 March in whioh it was stated clinics modified in this manner will soon that $20,000,000 will be spent on road be available. improvements to carry traffic from the All small S'chools jn the Somerset new Queensland Bridge, and as it was stated electorate have now been included on the that the first stage of the road-works on itineraries o.f caravans working in the the nor·th side will be the link from Kings­ electorate. ford Smith Drive to Nudgee Road and that the Main Roads Department plans 25. HIGH ScHOOL, Lowoon to upgrade existing arterial roads to link the bridge with Highway 1- Mr. Gunn, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Education- (1) What existing arterial roads are to be upgraded to link the bridge with As the secondary department of the Highway 1? Lowood school now has 250 pupils in forms 8 to 10 this year, thus qualifying for a (2) When is work scheduled to start high .school, and as children from the Esk on the upgrading of such arterial roads? Shire are being transported to Brassal State (3) Is it still planned to construct a High School, is planning in progress for main road linking the new bridge with a Lo,wood State High School? Sandgate via Banyo, Nudgee, Nudgee Beach through to Shorncliffe? Answer:- There is no enrolment figure at rwhich it Answers:- may be assumed that the provision of a (1) Following completion of stage high school becomes automatic. Factors works from K>ingsford Smith Drive to considered must include the likely main­ Nudgee Road, the existing network of tenance, increase or decrease of enrol­ roads connecting Nudgee Road to the ments, the rates of population growth, Bruce Highway is available to traffic. These access to existing facilities and availabiilty include Gerler Road-Junction Road, of funds. 2834 Questions Upon Notice (20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice

Forward planning has taken these factors Answer:- into account with respect to Lowood and (1 to 3) The Report of the Committee provision of a separate high school at of Enquiry Into Nurse Education and Lowood is listed in the Forward Planning Training chaired by Dr. Sidney Sax has Capital '~Vorks Program of my department, been considered by the Queensland Gov­ which is, of course, subject to availability ernment, which has endorsed the proposals of funds. regarding the offering of basic nurse educa­ tion programmes in colleges of advanced education for implementation in Queens­ 26. WARREGO HlGHVvAY land as soon as the Commonwealth Gov­ Mr. Gunn, pursuant to notice, asked the ernment, ,through the Tertiary Education Minister for Local Government and Main Commission, makes available the necessary Roads- funds for the purpose. As road-works providing four lanes on The Government also was in favour of the Warrego Highway have been com­ the introduction of basic nursing pro­ pleted as far as the Laidley Creek bridge grammes progress,ively into two colleges at Glenmore Grove, are plans completed of advanced education, one in Brisbane for the continuation of road-works and, and one in Central/Northern Queensland. if sn, when are they likely to commence? The Government also decided that all other proposals of the Sax Committee should be Answer:- kept under active consideration by the I am pleased to advise the honourable relevant Queensland authorities for health member that plans are being prepared and for education with a view to their for further construction we5t of Laidley progressive ,implementation as circum­ Creek bridge. It is currently planned to stances and funding permit. These views commence construction in the 1980-81 were forwarded to the Commonwealth financial year, subject, of course, to the Minister for Education but no further assumed level of funding being provided in advice has been received from the Com­ the new Commonwealth roads legislation, monwealth concerning this matter. details of which are not yet known.

29. INQUIRY INTO QUEENSLAND FISH 27. AGRICULTURAL BANK LOANS TO SMALL BOARD OPERATIONS BusiNESSES Mr. Hlli15en, pursuant to notice, asked the Mr. Hansen, pursuant to notice, asked Premier- the Minister for Industry and Administrative Services- (1) With reference to the latest com­ With reference to reports made by the mittee inquiring into the Queensland Fish ,Premier of a small Business Development Board which I believe comprises (a) an Council drawing financial assistance officer of the Department of Primary through the Agricultural Bank and as he Industries as chairman, (b) the honour­ has stated that 95 of every 100 busi­ able member for Mourilyan representing nesses in this State are classed ,as small the National Party, and (c) the honourable !business, ,is it proposed to increasE' the member for Redcliffe representing the Lib­ limitations on lending by the Agricultural eral Party, are there other instances where Bank to cope with the additional demand Government commitiees with parliamen­ or will the Agricultural Bank be simply tary representation have Public Service a referral bank to one of the existing recog­ officers as chairmen? nised banks? (2) Would it not be more appropriate, considering the importance of the inquiry Answer:- to the Queensland fishing industry, for I would suggest that the honourable the committee to be chaired by the Min­ member await further developments in ister for Maritime Services and Tourism? this matter. (3) What are the committee's terms of reference? 28. SAX REPORT ON NURSING TRAINING Answer:- Mr. Hansen, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Health- ( 1 to 3) I would suggest to the honour­ able member that the important question With reference to the Sax Report on to be resolved is the determination of Nursing Training- the most advantageous form of establish­ (1) Does he intend to implement any or ment to continue operations presently per­ all of the recommendations? formed by the Fish Board. The committee which has been established for this purpose (2) Have the recommendations been is seen by the Government to be ideally rejected outright? composed so as to be small enough to (3) Are there differences concerning the deal with the topic in an expeditious report between the Federal 'and State auth­ manner and representative of sufficiently orities and, if so, what are they? broad interest to ensure that adequate Questions Upon Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Upon Notice 2835

cover is given to the main aspects involved. effective wrapper. This is subject to excep­ Non-participation of the Minister or those tion in the case of bread delivered to a departmental officers presently involved home in a covered basket, food sold for in the administration of the board will individual consumption at an eating house facilitate the acceptance of it by interested and most fruit and vegetables. groups as possessing an approach which (b) Regulation 77 of the Food and is uninfluenced by past discussions or Drug Regulations requires food not cov­ administrative experiences. Whether or not ered by a specific standard to list the there are other committees similarly con­ ingredients on the label. Legislation to stituted is not seen by the Government cover all packaged foods has been drafted. as important when compared with the importance of ensuring that the best pos­ (2) The same controls as exist over sible solution is found to the problems foods manufactured in Queensland apply. entrusted to the committee. 32. SAFETY STANDARD OF IMPORTED Goons 30. HYGIENE, FooD STORE TROLLEYS Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the Mr. Row, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier- lvlinister for Health- (!) What consultation and co-operation takes place between Federal and State What action is taken by local authorities authorities on the question of the safety to ensure the hygienic conditions of super­ standard of imported goods? market and food store trolleys which are provided for use by shoppers, with par­ (2) What redress Is available under ticular reference to those trolleys which Queensland law against importers or contain seats for children? retailers responsible for the import or sale of faulty goods?- Answer:- Answer:- The provisions of the Food Hygiene Regulations of 1976 cover the responsi­ ( I & 2) The question asked by the hon­ bility of occupiers of food establishment ourable member is a very general one, to maintain appiiances at all times in a and in fact a specific answer can only clean and sanitary condition and it is the be provided to specific cases because of responsibility of local authorities to imple­ the various legal remedies that could be ment these regulations. The cleanliness of applied. However, for the information of trolleys provided in food establishments the honourable member, I would make the has never been the subject of complaint following general comments:- to this department and a survey did not (a) In regard to therapeutic substances, reveal a problem in this area. officers of the Health Department are members of the National Therapeutic Goods Committee, which makes recom­ mendations regarding standards to the 31. PACKAGING OF FOODSTUFFS National Health and Medical Research Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked the Council. Minister for Health- (b) A working party on testing and maintenance of electromedical equipment (1) What legal proviSions exist in was formed under the Hospital and Allied Queensland which require manufacturers Services Advisory Council to examine of edible products or foodstuffs to (a) methods of implementing, on a nation­ package or wrap their products, and (b) wide basis, standards set by the Stand­ state the ingredients in the foodstuffs in ards Association of Australia and is question? considering how this might be applied (2) What legal controls exist over pro­ by the Commonwealth Department of ducts manufactured in other States and Business and Consumer Affairs to sold in Queensland? imported goods. An officer of the Health Department is a member of this Answers:- working party. (1) (a) With the exception of specific (c) The Drugs Standard Adopting Act foods which of their very nature must be 1976 deals with drug standards, and sec­ packaged in a particular manner, for tions of the Health Act 1937-1979 and instance, canned foods, pasteurised milk associated regulations cover a wide range and carbonated beverages, there is no of goods and substances. general requirement that all foods must (d) Whenever defective imported elec­ be packaged at the place of manufacture. trical articles are discovered, it is the There is, however, a provision in the practice of the State Electricity Commis­ Food Hygiene Regulations of 1976 that sion to report the matter to the Com­ all foods which are ordinarily consumed monwealth Customs Authority where­ in the same state in which they are sold upon that authority takes the necessary must be delivered to the purchaser in an action to ban their importation. 2836 Questions Without Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Questions Without Notice

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Mr. GREENWOOD: ill would be quite right to say that the department's com­ AUSTRALIAN PARTICIPATION IN MOSCOW puterised service is probaJbly the best in OLYMPIC GAMES Aus·tralia, but it must be realised that there are limits even to that. It is steadily beino Mr. CASEY: In asking a question of the improved at great cost to the Government Minister for Culture, National Parks and but to supplement that information with Recreation, I refer to the unanimous dec­ a great deal of tedious wor.k at a time when sion made yesterday by the Amateur Athletic the department is extremely busv conductincr Union of Australia, on a resolution sub­ an investigation into the whole rating syste~ mitted from Queensland, to send Australian is something which, quite frankly, I was athletes to the Moscow Olympic Games. In not prepared to do at the time. view of the imminence of the games and the very real concern of Australian sports­ men and sportswomen and, in many cases their parents, as well as thousands of Aus: J'vlOVEMENT AND SALE OF J\1EAT tralians hoping to attend the games, I ask: Mr. BLAKE: I ask the Minister for While condemning in the strongest terms Primary Industries: Is it a fact that his the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, will department has approved a policy easing the State Government join the majority of restrictions on the movement and sale of Australians and sporting organisations and meat into and between declared abattoir areas? now support Australian participation in the Does this represent a change in National games? vVill the Minister also undertake Party policy and, if so, will the policy be to recommend to Cabinet that pressure be extended to easing the existing restrictions applied for a similar change in stance by on the movement and sale of milk between t~e Australian Government in Canberra, par­ milk districts? ticularly as Queensland sporting organisations ar~ helping to frame Australian policy on Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The this matter, so that the planning and fund­ question calls upon the Minister to answer raising ventures now at a crucial stage can for the policy of a political party. That proceed unhindered by political interference? is not his province. If the question relates to the Minister's ministerial responsibilities, Mr. I. .J. GIBBS: That is a very long I will ask him to answer it. question which requires a great deal of research. I ask the honourable member to Mr. BLAKE: I seek your guidance, Mr. put it on notice. Acting Speaker. .If 'I said "with Government policy", would that be in order? Mr. CASEY: I would have thought the The Minister would have had the facts on that Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Yes. matter at his fingertips. I shall place the Minister may proceed. question on notice. Mr. SULLIVAN: I was going to say, Mr. Acting Speaker, that ·we do not talk of National Party policy or Liberal Party VALUATION OF LAND HELD BY AUSTRALIAN policy. PAPER MANUFACTURERS Opposition Members interjected. Mr. CASEY: In asking a question of the Minister for Survey and Valuation, I refer Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! to the question of which I gave notice on 18 March concerning the valuation of Mr. SULLIVAN: It is true that certain certain lands in the shires of Caboolture and relaxations have been made relating to meat Pine Rivers and his answer yesterday that in the franchise areas. There is a very good it was not possible to calculate the per­ reason for that. Under section 92 of the centages I sought without a great deal of Commonwealth Constitution, meat can come work by his department. I now ask: How here from other States, and certain meat­ is he able to reconcile this evasion of the works wanted to get meat into franchise question asked by me on the grounds of areas in provincial cities up the coast. We the work and time involved when the reports took that action because we wanted meat of his department of 1978 and 1979 were from cattle bred, grazed and slaughtered lavish in their praise of its computerised in Queensland to be available. That answers service that is able to give such speedy ser­ that part of the honourable member·s ques­ vice to real estate agents on all sorts of tion. valuation matters and what is termed "main­ tenance of valuation roll", that should make I do not believe that I should have to the answers sought by me readily available? say what ·we do :with milk. They are two As it was obvious that yesterday the Minister different oroducts. The Milk Board is had a prepared answer to my inquiries, which looking after that, and the Meat Marketing was discarded at the last moment in favour Authority is looking after meat. If there of an evasive answer, will he now provide are any changes relating to the movement the answers to the questions asked by myself of milk in this State, the honourable mem· on 18 March? ber will be advised in due course. Questions Without Notice [20 MARCH 1980] Constitutional Powers, &c., Bill 2837

SUSPENSION OF SOLICITOR T. J. MELLIFONT have indica:ted that they can comply with that condition. The value of the contract is Mr. CASEY: I ask the Minister for just under $3 million. Justice and Attorney-General: Is it not a fact that the system of justice has two On the question of whether Mr. Iwasaki very important fundamental requirements, is buying more land, I have indicated to firstly, that no man can be a judge in his him-and he has accepted h as I understand own court and, secondly, that every person it-that his buying additional land cannot has a right to be heard? If so, did the be considered at the present time. Honour­ Statutory Committee of the Queensland Law able members opposite, who adopt a racist Society suspend solicitor T. J. Mellifont this attitude, have been peddling that argument. morning without giving him or his legal During my vish to Japan a couple of weeks counsel the right to be heard? On how ago I spoke to Mr. Iwasaki. Of course, the many previous occasions, if any, has such a main point is that Mr. Iwasaki is complying denial of justice occurred, and what rights with the terms of his franchise agreement of appeal does the person ,concerned actually and has met all the requirements under that have from such a decision? agreement. If honourable members opposite Mr. LICKISS: I believe that the decision will only be fair and decent and stop display­ was handed down by the Queensland Law ing a racist attitude then we will stop all Society at 10 o'clock this morning. l have the rumours that are so unneceO>sary, unfair not been apprised of it and, therefore, feel and unjust. The first building contract has that I cannot comment. If the honourable been ,Jet. member will place the question on notice, I will answer it in due course. Mr. CASEY: I do so accordingly. DISALLOWANCE OF QUESTION Mr. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon) having given notice of a question- FIRST-AID INSTRUCTION IN SCHOOLS Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! That Mr. LESTER: I ask the Minister for question is ruled out of order. Education: Has any action been taken as the result of constant representations I have made since 1975 to have regular first­ aid classes conducted in Queensland schools? CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS (COASTAL WATERS) BILL

Mr. BIRD: On several occasions the hon­ SECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE ourable member for Peak Downs has made representations to me on the matter of first­ Debate resumed from 11 March (see p. aid instruction in schools. In fact, one 2623) on Mr. Bjelke-Petersen's motion­ of his first representations to me after his "That the Bill be now read a second election to Parliament ,was on this subject. time." My departmental officers ~egarde_d it as a most important one and lmmediately pro­ Mr. CASEY (Mackay-Leader of the ceeded to dra~v up a first-aid curriculum. Opposition) (12.5 p.m.): As was indicated by It has been introduced into schools and will the Premier during the introduction of this be extended progressively. I co~rr:el!~ t_he Bill into Parliament, this legislation is the member for Peak Downs for his mitiative result of agreement which was reached at and also for his continued interest in the various :Premiers' Conferences and other education of our young people throughout meetings over the last two years. Its primary Queensland. purpose is to request the Commonwealth to pass a Bill to extend the legislative powers of the States so that their laws will apply to IwASAKI TouRisT PROJECT the adjacent coastal waters and, in some special cases, even beyond. This area has Mr. HARTWIG: I ask the Premier: Fol­ been one of great confusion, in recent years, lowina the recent announcement in Tokyo brought about mainly because of the old of an° agreement between the Iwasaki Sangyo Commonwealth-State rights argument that company and the Watkins company, can seems to have been with us since Federation. the Premier advise the House when a start In most cases the Queensland Government will be made on the construction of the -being no different, I would add, to most of first stage of the Yeppoon international the other State Governments-tends to want tourist r;sort? to blame the Commonwealth Government for everything. This is a rather unusual case in Mr. IHELKE-PETERSEN: As I under­ that it is the exact opposite-they are going stand it, a contract has been let to the to get something from the Commonwealth. Watkins ccmpany and work has been com­ In the case of Queensland, of course, it is menced on the construction of roads and far more important than it is for any other the preparation c;f th~ site. I belie_ve tha.t State because any offshore legislation in building constructiOn Will commence 111 Apnl Queensland, particularly within that area of and that something like 22 weeks has been the Great Barrier Reef region, becomes con­ allowed for completion. The contractors troversial, especially in a State where the 2838 Constitutional Powers, &c., Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Soil Conservation Act, &c., Bill present Government is so keen to grant over­ Finally, I must correct one false impression seas consortiums access to our natural that the Premier tried to give in his intro­ resources irrespective of the feelings of the ductory speech, which is that Queensland people of the State. was leading in this legislation. In actual fact, There is always a danger that such leg­ it has already been passed by Victoria, Tas­ islation as we are currently discussing can be mania, New South Wales and, I understand, administered in a manner which is not in some of the other States, so we are really the best interests of the majority of the almost the last in the field. people of the State. Irrespective of the Motion (Mr. Bjelke·Petersen) agreed to. Premier's attempts to say that there is noth­ ing in the legislation, there are a number of unanswered questions regarding future opera­ CoMMITTEE tions offshore of mining companies, oil (~Ir. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) exploration companies and even fishing com­ Clauses 1 and 2, and schedule, as read, panies, which must pose doubts in the minds agreed to. of Queenslanders. I would make it quite clear that the Labor Party in Queensland Bill reported, without amendment. believes that these controls should be in the hands of the State Government. However, THIRD REAillNG with the track record of our present Queens­ land Government, the administration of this Bill, on motion of Mr. Bjelkc-Petersen, by legislation will be closely watched by the leave, read a third time. Opposition. Tn the main, the legislation covers only up to the three-mile limit, or further in specially SOIL CONSERVATION ACT AMEND­ declared cases. Just as an example, let me MENT BILL indicate that there is a strong possibility that the Runrll<> >hnle-o;l rl'posits extend 1mder SECOl'.'D READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE the sea. There has also been the stated inten­ Debate resumed from 11 March (see p. tion on so many occasions by the Queens­ 2602) on Mr. Sullivan's motion- land Government to allow drilling for oil and "That the Bill be now read a second !!as in the Great BArrier RePf region. For time." the3e very reasons alone, it is going to be necessary, once the proposed le~Sislation is Mr. BLAKE (Bundaberg) (12.12 p.m.): passed by the Commonwealth, for further The Bill before the House is a very 'important mirror legislation to be undertaken by all one, not so much because of what it con­ States in relation to mining operations, or vevs but because the control of soil erosion a standard mining code for any offshore is ·a very important subject indeed. mining proposals. Soil is our most irreplaceable asset. I \Ve have already seen that the extension am afraid modern society took too long to nf the control of fishing industries by the learn that fact. Tl1e problem of soil erosion Commonwealth to the 200-mile limit is having naturally grew with the development of a backlash in this State with the State Gov­ agriculture and pastures, and with overstock­ ernment's attempts to sell the Fish Board ing of the land. Some landholdcrs w<:rc a~sets alon!! the coast, in the main, to aware of the problem and cared about the operators who want to use them only to state of erosion of the land, but others service the facilities for foreign fishina ·con- were both unaware and uncaring. sortiums. "' Awareness of the need for soil conserva­ We can always anticipate that, because of tion has increased rapidly in recent times. the attitude. of the present Government there [n 1951 in Queensland only 2,005 acres of "'_'ill a~so be r;ontroversy surrounding any deci­ eroded farmland were being stabilised. In sions m relatiOn to offshore mining or drilling 1964 action was taken to protect 90,144 within the three-mile limit. Of course the acres. At that t:me it was accepted that c~nstitutional argument will not stop' but over 2. 3 million acres of the State's valuable will merely be transferred from the high­ farmlands were adversely affected by soil water mark to the three-mile mark. We erosion. I do not know the present figure, must also remember that this three-mile limit but that shows the magnitude of the problem extends around all of the offshore islands in back in 1964-65. Because of the extensive Queensland, which has more of them than agriculture that is now carried on, that any other State., and at least those. parts of figure may be even greater today. the Great Barrier Reef that are above high­ Parts of the Soil Conservation Act 1951 water mark. So the people of Queens!i"nd worked well and its provisions were carried should not believe for one. moment that this into the 1965 Act. One must expect chang­ proposed legislation is going to solve all of ing circumstances and the lessons learnt in the constitutional offshore problems. practice and administration to be incorp­ Hopefully, what it will do, though, is orated in a Bill with the intention of finalise problems which relate to ports, har­ updating and increasing the efficiency of soil bours and dredging which are offshore and protection practices in the 1980s. I would instance, as an example, the o~vner­ 'I wish to spend some time on the dev­ ship of the Lucinda Point jetty, which extends elopment of soil conservation measures, 5~ km out to sea. because I think that communication and Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2839 understanding between the farmer, the I recall some of what were probably the grazier and the soil conservation autho6ty first soil conservation measures carried out, needs further explaining, and anything that particularly in the Isis area. I take this can contribute towards communication and opportunity to pay tribute to Jasper Ladewig understanding is most worth while. for the part he played in pioneering many of our soil conservation practices. Like pri­ I want to make it quite clear that I am vate individuals, at that time he was experi­ not doing this by way of criticism of the menting and working completely in the authority or the farmers. I am trying to dark. Soon after that, the first soil con­ stay with the purposes of this Bill, which is servation programme, or anti-erosion pro­ to bring about a greater understanding of gramme as it was called, was put into the application of soil conservation measures. effect in the Isis district on steep cane I agree with what the Minister said in land. Unfortunately, there was an unseason­ introducing the Bill, that is, that >the prime ally heavy fall of rain overnight. After responsibility for the conservation of soil the devastation caused by the breaking away of contour banks, the land was in even lies \Vith the landholder. Even so, the Gov­ worse order than it had been after the ernment has to provide the leadership and years of neglect in ordinary farming the expertise that is necessary to meet the practices. problems of the day. The second exp-.:rimenl thnt I saw carried Expertise is something that is developed. out in the Isis area had a ~,imilar efiect. Initially it was lacking in soil conservation Of course, it was nece',~;ary to learn what methods at both private and departmental gradient wns required for the run-off drains Jeyels. Even today there are instances of and how far apart they ne"ded to be, and uncaring !an d-o\\ ners; but even if they are that was a matter for experimentation. I caring, it does not automatically impart to saw another farm more seriouslv eroded as them the expertise that is necessary. I have a result of an overnight downpour before seen in my lifetime shocking land practices the eartlnvorks in a ,,, ell-intentioned experi­ carried out by well-meaning but unskilled ment had been consolidated than it had individuals. Some honourable members are been eroded in 70 or 80 years of normal a\lare, no doubt, of the old practice of farming. That is \vhy there has been such ploughing in wash-outs-gathering in soil, great difficulty in acllieving good public tilling in the wash-outs and levelling off in relations between farmers and soil conserva- an attempt {o rectify gully erosion. What 1tion authorities, and, unfortU!utely, that inevitably happened was that at the next difflcu'ty still exists to a larg·~ extent. downpour there were bigger, greater but not better \vash-outs. J ha\'C seen on my own property some of the factors that contribute to failures in A matter of a couple of decades ago soil conservation programmes. Failures haYc no attempts were made in normal farming occurred largely be..:ause of the objc:tion by practice to control run-oti from higher areas landholders to con~our banks or earthwork-; that was affecting pastures and land in suf!kient to do the job properly. Banks lo\\ er 2reas. Even as a child I wondered consisting of loose dirt 10 inches high were why so many landholders did not bother to thrown up on my prop,:rty. I :'aid to the dhcrt water in a sensible manner so that comervation officer>, "Let me know when it did not cause as much destruction of those banks are finished, because I want what was Yery valuable land. I might refer to consolidate them with a very heavy to the fact that Newton, when an apple rubber-tyred tractor ; o that they wii! hold." fell en his head, knew that the laws of I was told that the banks were . omplete. gravity could not be ignored. When it comes As I said, the banks were 10 inc11es high; to soil conservation measures, no longer can but in places there were irregularitic-; of at we atrord to ignore the forces that water, least 5 inches in the soil, which meant that wind and gravity can exert in wreaking the contour bank was then onlv 5 inches havoc on arable land. high. When heavy rain occurred, not only did water run through those irregularities The knowledge that has been acquired but soil infiltrated the contour drains. Con­ and lhat must still be acquired is not sequently, water went straight over the magically inherited by Government depart­ banks. That occurred only a few years ments or by departmental officers. As with ago, so obviously mistakes that had caused any other art or science, it has to be pain­ many failures over the years were con­ stakingly acquired whether by private tinuing to be made. individuals or by officialdom. Devastation can result and has resulted from official ignor­ I am not being critical of damage that ance or incompetence, just as from private is caused when an unseasonal downpour ignorance or incompetence, however well­ occurs before soil conservation work can intentioned the efforts. Put bluntly, official­ be consolidated. That is something over dom has to learn like anybody else. Like which one has no control. However, pos­ anvbody else, it has made mistakes. The sibly to appease farmers \\ ho do not want difference is that those mistakes are resented suitable earthworks on th2ir properties, mis­ more than are private mistakes. A person takes made in the past are being repeated. will ignore or excuse his own mistakes, I hope that the lessons of the last conp;e but he will not excuse somebody else's. of years-and I was speeking particularly of 2840 Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amerulment Bill a couple of years ago-are learnt, that soil I have been pleased to see some of the conservation authorities have a great deal Jand-use stud·ies that were carried out. The of eJCpertise, and that farmers can now have departmental officers involved, with their a great deal of faith in the ability of those knowledge and expertise, have brought for­ authorities to protect their valuable prop­ ward sound pl.ans for both the present and erties. the future use of land. It is no good our Many of the provisions in the Bill are talking about soil conservation and future very necessary, particularly those relating land use unless these officers are involved to notice of planning, earthworks, etc., and in the protection of our soil. for objection and compensation. The great­ Local authorities that do not already have est need is for co-operation and understand­ authority to contra:! the construction of ing between the landholder and the officers levee banks after an area has been declared of the Soil Conservation Authority and will be given such authority. This amend­ between local authorities, river improvement ment is a sensible one, and I am sure it trusts, drainage boards, and so on. The will be supported by all hooourahle mem­ successful implementation of most schemes, bers. whether for private or community benefit, often depends on the integration of facilities A further amendment incorporates pro­ and the good will and co-operation of all the visions enabling local authorities and other relevant authorities. Once a person begins statutory bodies to accept responsibility for moving or diverting water, he quickly learns the implementation and maintenance of that the water he moves or divert.s affects community works. This is essential. Most somebody else, and all the authorities men­ of us who have had anything to do with tioned in the Bill are a necessary part of a local authority or community work have sensible programme implemented by a trust, come up against 'the practice of passing the an authority or a soil erosion district, and buck bebween departments. They say, "That I ·commend the provisions of the Bill relating is not our responsibility." to that aspect. I have been confronted with this problem When land is involved, the area of public in the Bund

-I will now deal with the Bill itself. I not moved as quickly as we can or that per­ thoroughly approve of many of the amend­ haps we have been a little bit selfish. Some­ ments, particularly the one -which deals with times we are a little bit selfish but, by and the streamlining of the appeals procedure. large, I think that most farmers do their best I am not quite so happy about the constitu­ in this area. They say to themselves, "Yes, tion of the Soil Conservation Authority. That I would love to do this, but the cost is beat­ concerns me because I believe it would ing me." I suggest that if any additional have been better to have included one or Federal funds are made available, we could two practical men selected from the member­ apply them to the works of general benefit. ship of the advisory committees. I know that there were some difficulties in this It is probably only in the last 25 years regard. As was pointed out by the member that we have had the equipment to do this work. Prior to that, we could bank but we for Bundaberg, these advisory committees I are not in every area of the State. I, too, could not make efficient banks. commend hope that they can be introduced into other the member for Bundaberg for suggesting I that there is not much point in building a areas because think that they have been a bank unless it is capable of coping with the great success. run-off. Whilst most of the members of this new authority will be technical men and will have The soil conservation officers with whom areas of responsibility that should tie in with I have dealt usually suggest that a bank be the new authority, I am a little worried about built so that it will carry the run-off. In my whether we are getting an authority that is particular area there is always an argument purely bureaucratic. It would be much better about the spacing of the banks. We have if there were practical men on the authority. been leaving out a bank. I have always sup­ It is not always a matter of what one has ported that idea. However, during periods of to do; sometimes it is a matter of what one great stress-and something like this hap­ can afford to do, and other times it is a pened in the electorate of the member for matter of what can be done. However, I Cunningham recently-the practice of leav­ accept the fact that we are to have a new ing out a bank had a detrimental effect. So authority. we have to consider whether a bank should be left out. Of course, if more banks are Other than expressing that rather mild built, there are more difficnltie<> in working criticism, I think it will be best to wait the land, particularly in harvesting grain. and see what happens. It might turn out to A number of matters have to be considered. be an excellent authority. It might work Certainly there is a problem. well and, if it does, I will be one of the first to admit that I was wrong. As I have I wish to say something about the advisory said. at the moment I would like to see more comrnittee5 in my area where they are practical people on the authority. working extremely well. They are to be corn­ mended, and perhaps should be tried in I now turn to works of general benefit. other areas. Their initial input into the My area is one of the worst affected by problem of soil conservation has done nothing soil erosion, and I think that these works but good. They are dedicated people; they of general benefit are one of our greatest have to be because thev do not receive anv problems. Sometimes a farmer at the bot­ great remuneration for· their work. In that tom end of a drainage system has to accept respect I pay a tribute to those people who drainage water from seven. eight, nine or 10 h!lve accepted positions on these committees. farms. He may be expected to build a water­ They also have, to fight elections. I commend way that is much wider and deeper and has thme people who put their names forward a greater capacity than the waterway of a and were unsuccessful; at le!lst thev were farmer further up the bank. One of the prepared to accept responsibility. We can reasons why there are difficulties in getting be proud of the work that has been done, !lnd this work done as quickly as we would like we should be happy in the knowledge that is the extra cost involved for farms further we have people who are prepared to do down the bank. voluntary work and use their expertise to help their neighbours. All in all, that is to I am not suggesting that the Minister has be commended. not tried to get more money for this work­ I am sure he has-but if ever additional In the streamlining of the objection pro­ Federal funds are made available, I -think cess, 'I think the Minister has adopted a that they could be applied -to the greatest scheme that will work. He has suggested advantage to these works of general benefit. that three people be appointed, two of them What is done by local authorities or others to be from the advisory committees. That in the soil conservation field is mainly gov­ will mean that when an objection is lodged erned by money. We all know that because those who hear -it will have practical know­ of an escalation in the price of fuel and other ledge, and the objector will have faith in commodities, the cost of combating soil them. Because of that the findings ~hould erosion will increase. So financial considera­ be accepted, and -I think thev will be tions are particularlY important when con­ accepted. · sidering the works of general benefit. I commend the idea of greater consulta­ I am not quite as critical of humanity as tion between the Soil Conservation Authoritv the honourable member for Bundaberg was and landholders. That is a good idea. I am when he suggested that perhaps we have not suggesting at the moment that -we lack Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2843 consultation to any great extent, but I think asset. As he said, we can use it, but there it is improving, and vhat is probably a step is no more of it being made. That is in the right direction. certainly so. Therefore, we ought to ensure The proposed tribunal to hear objections that we preserve what we have. It is true will probably get rid of a lot of problems that some of the worst effects of erosion that I have-and I am sure other members have been felt on some of our best soils. have-of writing to ,the Minister and sug­ "A Basis for Soil Conservation Policy in gesting that he send certain officers to look Australia" says- at a location to see if the work proposed is in the best interests. I am not so foolish "To be effective, the integration of soil as to suggest that we will be left without conservation and land degradation control objections. When persons arc not satisfied in general with other land resource policies there will still be objections, but certainly should be supported by research in the the objections will he looked at by people following four main areas: with expertise. The Minister's officers will o the mechanisms of land degradation appear at these hearings. People of prac­ and the means of combating it; tical knowledge wiH hear the objections, and o a broader information and data base I understand that an independent arbitratur concerning the characteristics of land will be chairman of the tribunal. Great steps as a resource; forward have been made in that regard. e the effects of land use on land I have no need to speak any longer on the degradation, particularly soil loss, and amendments to the Soil Conservation Act the effects of degradation on fertility other th.1n to say that I wiLl continue to and productivity, water resources and watch these areas. I believe the amendments environmental quality; and will be in the best interests of soil conserva­ e strategies to relate soil conservation tion in this State. Hopefully, in years to to the social and economic circum­ come we will be able to look back and say stances of the individual and the type that these amendments were for the better­ of productive activity undertaken." ment of the State. I certainly believe that will be so. As the honourable member for Bundaberg says, people at times take umbrage when Mr. Prest: The dav before Mr. Sullivan someone tells them that they are abusing went to London, too. - the soil by overstocking. It is very hard Mr. BOOTH: Wherever the Minister goes, to tell someone who has bought stock in he learns a lot. Not only does he learn a anticipation of a good season, only to find fair bit, hut he brings that knowledge back he is facing a bad season, how he should with him, and that is to be commended. be managing his land. However, I believe that generally there is a greater recognition Mr. Prest: He is going there to stay. of the problem. There is grazing country that has been held by the one family for Mr. BOOTH: I am not interested in the generations. Usually, those people manage Minister's journeys at the moment. He is such a nice guy that I am not going to hit their properties \vel!, because they are not faced with loan interest and redemption him with them. payments. On the other hand, when people M1. HANSEN (Maryborough) (12.49 purchase a property they find that their p.m.): I speak in support of the Bill. Soil costs of operation mount up around their conservation probably has as much import­ ears. They try to get the utmost out of ance to Queensland as water conservation. the land, with the intention of not con­ Perhaps we have been a 1ittle slower to intro­ tinuing such practices for long once they duce these measures than some of the other get their heads above water. However, as States hut that is because we have not had we all know, that does not always happen; the violent examples, if I can call them that, the practice continues. of the mallee areas in north-western Victoria and South Australia, which were affected by I believe that there is strong argument water, wind and salt. Some of those areas for Government involvement in soil con­ were completely denuded by incoHect prac­ servation. Society requires protection from tices. Queensland is also :fortunate that it the transmitted effects of land degradation did not have the rabbit problem, which con­ through erosion. Governments must be con­ tributed largely ,to soil erosion in southern cerned when soil erosion causes damage to States. public assets or financial losses to other land-users for which it is difficult to appor­ There has been a growing awareness of tion blame. soil conservation measures. We are indebted to both the Commonwealth and State Gov­ There is also a case for Government con­ ernments for the document "A Basis for cern where adverse effects may be expected Soil Conservation Policy in Australia". That in the future as a result of present land has been prepared very comprehensively, and management. The difference between land­ it gives people an awareness of their respon­ user and Government responsibility for soil sibility. As the honourable member for conservation is that, whereas it is the land­ Warwick said, we are users of the soil user's responsibility to protect the land he for only a certain time. We should be doing is using, it is the GDvernment's responsibility our best to conserve it. It is not a renewable to ensure that he does so. 2844 Soil Conservation (20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill

A measure such as this, by setting up to the natural disasters side of things. They an authority, allows people to combine for produced a document that gave everyone to the common benefit. I notice that the whom we were trying to get the message expressions used now are "community works" across a very real understanding of what and "owner works". I agree with the remarks had happened and the magnitude of the of the honourable member for Warwick on problem. So often one takes a submission this. I can recall that some people felt to a Government department and it is that, because they were on lower land, knocked back, basically because it is just they were copping the lot; that they carried another submission. Someone sa}>, "Oh, yes, a greater responsibility for disbursement of another one." In this case the-re was a run-off water. I believe that at present pictorial record which, even in about a the authority has the power to instruct minute and a half, got the meSiage across. land-owners on the use of their land-what It was a practical example of \\ i1.at can be land can be cultivated and what land cannot. done by people who know what they are While that advice is accepted w1th good about and who are prepared to respond to grace in some areas, there are those who a challenge and act quickly. I again con­ tend to regard it as an intrusion on their gratulate the officers on their w0crk, because rights. Nevertheless, the common benefit I believe that it will be irv;trumental in must be taken into account. If there are having what occurred there recogni,ged as a to be long"term benefits from the land, natural disaster. something must be done now. The problem affects both the landholder at a particular I strongly support some of the proposed point and the people further downstream. amendments. The recommend:1tion for the change in the authority is very important. The Government is assisting in the con­ I take on board the comments that were struction of dams to provide water not only made by my colleague the honoura!JJe mem­ for farmers but also for people in various ber for Wa•rwick, who had some misgivings municipalities. However, there are many about it. All of us felt, I think, that there examples throughout Queensland of the may be some problems in that re>pect, but capacity of dams being reduced by silting, basically I supported the suggestion because and that should be a matter of concern to it was put up by the area group committees. all of us. That is very important, because, as the Soil conse•rvation is very important to honourable member for Warwick indicated, Queensland, and any measure that creates those commitees are democraticallv elected greater awareness of the problems and gives and have the support of all landhofde.-s. people more incentive to participate in soil conservation schemes is to be commended. [Sitting suspended from I to 2.15 p.m.] The more qualified people who are available Mr. ELLIOTT: In touching on the role of ·to advise on these problems, the greater the the new authority, I restate-that the whole benefit will be to the community generally. idea of its construction was generated by I have much pleasure in supporting the the area group committees, which are demo­ BilL cratically elected by the people in their areas. As they are democratically elected, we should Mr. ELLIOTT (Cunningham) (12.56 p.m.): be prepared to support any submis,;ion they Before I comment on the provisions contained put forward. in the Bill, let me say that I believe that •the Government has a responsibility to assist As I said before lunch, the honourable landholders to conserve their soiL If we member for Warwick had some misgivings abrogate that responsibiLity, we will stand about the proposal. I am sure all of us condemned in the eyes of the next generation would agree that we should give it a chance to work. We should be prepared to examine for not achieving some measure of controL it after six months, one year or two years Personally, I would hang my head in shame to determine whether or not it is the best if ·I were to depart from this Assembly way of approaching the whole matter. If it without having achieved my objectives rela­ is evident that there is need for landholder tive to soil"erosion hazard areas in my e,Jec­ representation on the authority, we should torate. be prepared to look at it agai!l. ~ do not I pay tribute to the officers of the Minis­ consider that such representatiOn !S neces­ ter's department in my area for the job sary, and obviously the area group committees they did in connection with the great pro­ do not think it is necessary. blem that arose in the Clifton and C•ambooya What we are after is a streamlined Shires to which the honourable member for approach. Where there is an overall drain­ Warwick referred earlier. Two intense age plan for a soil erosion hazard declared tropical-type storms, which, fortunately, are area, we need speedy action and co-ordination not usuaJl in the area, resulted in a tremen­ between departments. We do not want the dous disaster. The damage they caused was situation in which a person sitting on the immense. Officers of the Minister's depart­ authority says, "I am sorry, but I can­ ment were on the job quickly and, with not make a decision. We will have to go Tom McVeigh and me, waded round amongst back to the head of the Water Resources the damage and in the mud and slush. They Commission and ask him to examine the did a fantastically good job of recording position." It is essential that the commis­ what had occurred, particularly as it related sioner himself or his nominee make the Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2845

decision. This whole thing goes up the spout will be democratically elected, they will have unless we are prepared to make decisions the acceptance and support of the people on the spot at such meetings. in their area. They will have the expertise The amendment that will give local author­ and experience to understand the problem. ities control over levee banks is commend­ It is fairly obvious that we must be able. A local authority in the Minister's careful not to allow somebodv to be a electorate has requested this. I would be member of the appeal committee if he prepared to go along with this practical idea. lives close to the person who is appealing. Works of general benefit are very important. Nobody would like to be put in the position In fact, they are a key factor in this whole of having to sit in judgment on his neigh­ equation. bour's problem. This could present a person­ We in the soil erosion hazard areas of ality problem. Such a person would be in Cunningham believe that up till now the lack an invidious position. of local authority control over levee banks The members of the panel should be has been one of the inhibiting factors that people associated with an A.G.C in the prevented the whole programme from getting declared soil erosion hazard area but who off the ground. There has been too much live far enough away from the appellant confusion as to who was responsible for not to be personally involved with him, works of general benefit and who would pick whilst at the same time sufficiently knowing up the tab. and understanding the problem in the catch­ I call for greater participation by the State ment area to be able to make an objective Government in the funding of works of decision. general benefit. After all, it is not the land­ I support the Bill. I ask that a realistic holder alone who benefits; the whole com­ approach be made to funding. ,r would be munity benefits. Naturally, the landholders the first to agree with the honoCirable mem­ will benefit, but so, too, will local author­ ber for Maryborough and other Opposition ities, through less siltation of roads, and members that some landholders have not the RaihYay Department, with fewer prob­ done enough themselves, We must all agree lems where railway lines cross roads. So with that, but that does not preclude our it is imoortant that we re-examine the doing everything possible. We are not doing role the Government now plays in relation anything like enough in funding to overcome to works of general benefit. It is obvious this problem. We should hang our heads that no-one was prepared to come into the in shame if we do not overcome the trusts. The present proposal is a much problem. more acceptable solution. It has the sup­ port of the area group committees and we Mr. MOORE (Windsor) (2.25 p.m.): must go along with it. It has been agreed that the second­ reading stage would allow for a fairly wide­ •I shall now deal with the period for ranging debate, so I might never get to advertising. Some people have said, "What the BilL on earth are you doing? You are reducing to 30 days the period for which a plan has It is welllmown that agriculturists through­ to be advertised." In fact, the Bill provides out the wor·ld use only about 6 in. of topsoil. for not less than 30 days. The reason for There is no doubt that we just cannot afford it is that a decision should be made as to lose that to erosion. I have to agree with quickly as possible in a S'imple matter. It the remarks made by the honourable members should not be tied up with red tape &nd for Bundaberg and Warwick, but I sometimes cause endless arguments over something that wonder a!bout the ·increase in bureaucratic nobody is very concerned &bout. control envisaged by this Bill and just what happens when we appo1nt somebody to run If there is a real problem in a catchment another person's farm. It is true that with area and it involves a tremendous amount the basaltic soils on the Darling Downs there of argument, that is a different matter. As are fences built on top of fences, and that an example, .I refer to the Linthorpe Valley 9-ft. posts supporting fences around cattle­ outfall catchment in my area. The decision yards have only about 3 ,ft. left poking out in that matter will be very contentious. of the topsoil as a result of the effects of People will argue both ways and everyone, soil erosion. This is a problem that occurs particularly if he •will be aff ectcd ~y the mostly with agricultural land, but it does decision, will ·consider that he has an mstant turn up in other places, particularly in solution. Everyone will want the water to trap-rock country. Erosion is camed by !!O somewhere else. In such a case, people sheep watering. They erode the creek bank, :.\·ill be given much more time in which and once grasses have gone erosion to lodge an objectwn and to put up an becomes a pwblem. But it occurs only in alternative proposal. This is the consultation isolated areas. Our biggest soil ero3ion prob­ process at its best. It is a very practicable lems occur on land used for agricultural approach. purposes. The honourable member for \Varwic.k and There are all sorts of theorie"> being put other Government members were responsible forward on how to prevent soil erosion. One for the principle relating to appeals. There is to leave the stubble and the straw on the will be an appeal panel of three peopl~, two land so that it will bind the soil. A lot more of whom wiil be area group committee research has to be done into the effects of members. This is good because, as they erosion on various types of soiL For 2846 Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill

instance, when rain falls on the self-mulch­ of a subsidy helps to retain the soil, then the ing black soil the dampness goes through to public simply have to pay the bill. We oan the subsoil, the topsoil becomes frill}ble, and justify paying a subsidy to the farmers who then along comes a sl'orm and the topsoil all are producing food in these most difficult ends up on a neighbour's property. It is areas. The areas that are most subjected damned hard to overcome that problem. to soil erosion are those that have Downs­ Mr. R. &. Gibbs: Where did you gain your type soil-fertile, self-mulching, basaltic soil. expertise on soil erosion? Mr. Underwood: Have you ever heard of sheet erosion? Mr. MOORE: If the honourable member looks at my Air Force discharge papers, he Mr. MOORE: The honour.able member will sec my occupation listed as "farmer." was probably short-sheeted. Mr. R. J. Gibbs: They tell me your know­ ledge stops at your own fenceline. M:r. Undcnvooi!: You obviously ha\e never been to the Darling Downs. Mr. MOORE: I have 26 perches out at Dorrington, 60 that ought to make me an Mr. MOORE: I had better contain myself. expert on this subject. There are schoolchildren in the public gal­ lery and I do not want to be the subject Mr. Undenvood: Is that nightsoil or day­ of a letter in the newspaper. I shall speak soil? privately to the honourable member on Mr. DEPUTY SPEAii:ER (Mr. Row): another occasion. Order! I ask the honourable member for There is also another problem ¥.1th soil Wolston to withdraw that remark. erosion. We are building dams across the ery few waterways and catchment areas Mr. R. J. GIBBS: I deny it. I never that we have in this dry nation. In America, made that remark. dams that once held hundreds of thousands­ in fact, millions-of acre-feet are silted up Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The and hold practically no water now and are honourable member for Ipswich West, then. being dredged. That is an indictment of Mr. UNDERWOOD: I withdraw. another good reason why we have to do something about soil erosion. Mr. MOORE: I have a suggestion to It has b;;cn said that we are the care­ make about protecting the topsoil after it takers of the land. No re:,ponsible member of has been cultivated and brought up to a Parl~am :nt \Vould want to feel that in his certain tilth. For instance, if a farmer Is time here he did not do his utmost to planting potatoes he ploughs a certain tilth, maintain the land so that when he leaves whereas if he is growing corn or maize he it to his children or grandchildren it will can get away with a lower tilth. Some time be in a's good condition as it was when he ago, when I heard the suggestion of leaving received it. the stubble so that the soil could be more easily brought up to a proper friable quality Mr. R. J. Gihhs interjected. without putting the various cultivators through ·it, I wondered whether officers of Mr. MOORE: Is the honourable member the Department of Primary Industries had making a speech or am I? given any thought to the idea of planting wheat, oats or canary seed after the soil had Mr. R. J. Gibbs: You are making a pretty been brought to the stage where a specific poor effort of it. crop was to be planted but there was insuffi­ Mr. MOORE: I do not make any claim cient moisture in the soil or it was not quite to being a great speaker, but I am always the right time to plant that crop. The tem­ porary crop could be allowed to grow to a worried a bit about bureaucracv. If we hand height sufficient tu hold the soil together and over power to a body and that power is then sprayed with a weedieide and the other handled well, that is admimble, but per­ crop planted underneath at the appropriate sonalitie·s enter into the matteT and there time. are all sorts of harassment. I just hope that that does not occur with the body that we I know that problems arise with crops are presently setting up. binding the tines of implements, but surely we could introduce something such as a Hun. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ coulter running ahead to do a cut when the Minister for Primary Industries) (2.34 p.m.), drill is operating so that binding would not in reply: I thank honourable members for occur. I know that would be expensive, but their contributions. I say to the honourable it is damned expensive to replace soil that member for Windsor that, from the look has washed away. Today we are talk·ing on the faces of the young boys from St. about shorter working hours and higher costs Peter's College in the public gallery, I think per manchour. There is virtually no automa­ that he gave them an idea when he talked tion in primary industry. about short-sheeting. I would be surprised Reference has been made to ~mbsidies and if, whc:n they get home today, they do not to the fact that the nation is subsidising the short-sheet the beds of their brothers and food that is produced here. If the payment sister~S. Soil Conservation [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2847

It is pleasing for me as Minister for each of the members-whether it was eight Primary Industries and for my departmental or 10, I have just forgoHen--of the local officers to see the propo9al being accepted committee. A lot of interest in that display by memb"rs on both sides o.f the House. was shown by those who attended the show. The Opposition spokesman on primary At least they now kno~v that if they want industries, the honourable member for to talk to somebody about soil conservation Bundaberg, made some personal comments problems they can see, say, Ivan Middleton on the matter but, generally, he accepted in the Brigalow area or Neville Skerman the measure on behalf of the Opposition. over at Kaimkillenbun, or wherever it might be. I commend young Doug Muller for pro­ As I have said on many occasions, soil viding that type of display for the interest conservation is a very important function of of patrons of that show. I can assure the my department. I think all would acknowl­ honourable member for Warwick that there edge that the first responsibility for conserv­ will be plenty of opportunity for input by ing soil belongs to the landholder-the farmers at the level of advisory committees. owner-but I believe that State and Federal Ever since he has been a member of this Governments also have a responsibility. Assembly the member for Cunningham has After all, we are not making any more soil­ taken a very keen interest in soil conserva­ particularly agricultural soil-although in tion. I commend him for it. He paid tribute some places such as Japan where soil is in to the work of officers in my department and short supply, land is being reclaimed for for the manner in which they came to grips indu,trial purposes. So there is a real ,res­ with the problem in the Clifton and Cam­ ponsibility to ensure that everything is done booya Shires recently when so much dam­ to maintain our soil. age was done by continual torrential down­ pours. It was shocking to see the devastation The honourable member for Bundaberg of good agricultural land there. He men­ mentioned the matter of continuing agree­ tioned the pictorial evidence of it. I com­ ments with local authorities. The answer, as mend my officers for their efforts. One gets I see it. would depend to a large extent on a much better idea of something from looking the individual particulars of the case: it at photographs than by reading about it. becomes a legal matter for resolution. How­ ever, I believe that the scope of the present Mr. Moorc: A picture is worth a thousand Act should be wide enough at least to assist words. in the resolution of this type of complaint. Generally speaking, the measures contained Mr. SULLIVAN: That is very true. in the amending legislation have been Only a dozen copie< of that storm pictorial accepted by the honourable member for Bun­ daberg and the honourable member for were produced initially. However, ~everal hundred conies are bein~; printed, and should Maryborough on behalf of the Opposition. be available next week, a> a permanent This is pleasing to ~ee because, after all, a lot of work went into it. Manv people have been record of the devastation and damage that involved. The recommendations have been occurred. After those who use the land for agreed upon with landholders and local ar,ricultural purposes have seen photographs of such devastation I would hope that we arlvi<;ory committees, pcopl'c~ who give a lot of their time to the problem> of soil ero>ion. will get 100 per cent co-operation from them. The honourable member for Warwick, who represents an area on the ea

WHEAT MARKETING ACT onion farmers, who at one time were repre­ AMENDMENT BILL sented through the Queensland Farmers and Graziers' Association, are no longer repre­ SECDND READING--RESUMPTION OF DEBATE sented through that body. Debate resumed from 11 March (see p. I have consulted with various grower 2627) on Mr. Sullivan's motion- organisations in various areas of the State, "That the Bill be now read a second and they assure me that the proposed legis­ time." lation has the support of a majority of growers. In fact, after inquiring, I believe Mr. BLAKE (Bundaberg) (2.45 p.m.): The that it may have more support than was House has been told that, because of a indicated in the poll taken to decide whether compositor's error, a section of the Act or not the heavy vegetable industry would stated twice that one person nominated by be brought under the auspices of the C.O.D.'s the Queensland Graingrowers' Association marketing structure. The poll showed that would be appointed to the Wheat Varieties 91.3 per cent of the votes cast were in Advisory Committee of six persons. It favour. However, I believe that the number omitted to state the intention to appoint of votes cast barely exceeded the require­ a person representing the Department of ment that 50 per cent of the producers Primary Industries. The Bill corrects the vote. It is a sad commentary on the industry, error and the omission. Other than to and also perhaps on primary industries as state that the error should never have a whole, that it was difficult to get even occurred, the Opposition does not wish to a 50 per cent response to the poll. I sup­ delay the business of the House any further. pose it could be said that quite a lot of producers do not care whether the matter Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ comes under the C.O.D. or not. However, Minister for Primary Industries) (2.46 p.m.), the proposal certainly has the support of in reply: I thank the honourable member the majority or persons engaged in the for Bundaberg. The Government does not industry. wish to delay the business of the House, I want to give the House some of the either, and I make no further comment. reasons given by the heavy produce growers We agree entirely with him. for favouring this legislation. The major benefits offered by the C.O.D. include: repre­ Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. sentation on a collective level by a heavy produce subcommittee as an integral part of the C.O.D.; opportunity for [ndividuals to CoMMITTEE air their views through the established (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) "grower parliament" structure or grower Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. organised structure of the C.O.D.; a direct link to State and national organisations, such Bill reported, without amendment. as the Council of Agriculture, the Australian Horticultural Growers' Council, the Aus­ THIRD READING tralian Vegetable Growers' Federation, the Australian United Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Bill, on motion of Mr. Sullivan, by leave, Association and the National Farmers' Fed­ read a third time. eration. I point out that the growers thought it worth mentioning that they aJso ·receive a free copy of "Fruit and Vegetable News", which is circulated fortnightly to all growers. FRUIT MARKETING ORGANISATION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL The heavy produce growers will have access to a range of professionll!l staff for SECGND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE advice and assistance with Government Debate resumed from 18 March (see p. ·inquiries, submissions and technical prob­ 2797) on Mr. Sullivan's motion- lems. They will aJ.so have access to grower­ processer liaison services, which will ensure "That the Bill be now read a second that growers get a fair hearing from the time." processers. As well, the ·legislation will Mr. BLAKE (Bundaberg) (2.48 p.m.): The ensure for heavy produce growers access to heavy produce section of the fruit and vege­ the fruit and vegetable growers' insurance table industry produces a return of about package, by which many growers allegedly $20 million annually, so it is a significant are currently saving approximately 50 per cent section of the industry. The Bill proposes of their insurance costs. It will also give to alter the definition of "vegetable" to access to a range of sundry services, such as include in the marketing structure of the grower information trips both interstate and Committee of Direction of Fruit Marketing overseas, seminars, and so on. It is under­ such products as potatoes, onions, pumpkins standable why a majmity of those who voted and swede turnips, and I understand that it in the poll were in favour of bringing pota­ will be operated by an elected subcommittee toes, pumpkins, swede turnips and other of the Vegetable Sectional Group Committee. heavy vegetables under the auspices of the Of course, heavy produce vegetables pre­ C.O.D. marketing structure. viously did not come under the marketing Another important provision in the Bill structure of the C.O.D., and the potato and authorises the C.O.D. to sell and market Fruit Marketing Organisation (20 ·MARCH 1980) Acts Amendment Bill 2849 flowers and nursery products. The trade in Mr. Blake: Perhaps they are too busy. flowers and nursery products has grown appreciably, so it is only sensible that the Mr. STEPHAN: As a grower, I know C.O.D. should be allowed to engage with that that might be the case, but there must other agents in the maDketing of flowers and he a couple of minutes during the day when nursery products. I, too, emphasise that this growers have the time to pick up a pen and will not give the C.O.D. control of the trade scratch a mark on a piece of paper. This in flowers and nursery products; the C.O.D. is something that vegetable growers tend to wHl trade on an equal .footing with other neglect. In a private enterprise of this traders. This is a matter of some concern to nature, it is difficult to get a stick behind people who are rather strong, shall I say, them and say that they have to do some­ in the flower-growing 'industry. I am sure thing. that they will have no objection to the exten­ The proposal dealing with the sale of sion of the marketing structure, particularly fresh flowers is of a machinery nature. At as it will not entail control of marketing by present, the C.O.D. does not have this right. the Committee of Direction of Fruit Market­ Most other businesses will have the right ing. when the flower floor is opened. The size From the Opposition's point of view, there of the horticultral industry in the South and is only one other facet that is worthy of the flower floors in Sydney and Melbourne comment. It is the amendment permitting indicate the importance of this selling pro­ the director to appoint a deputy as his ex cedure. As I said, it is a machinery matter officio representative on the Committee of and I give the Bill my wholehearted support. Direction of Fruit Marketing when he will Mr. KRUGER (Murrumba) (3 p.m.): Over be absent from any discussions. This is a the past few years the heavy vegetable section very elementary amendment and a very in Queensland has been somewhat out on a sensible requirement. The Opposition has limb. Let us look at the reasons why the no reason to oppose it. Bill has become necessary. The main one, of course, is that the heavy vegetable growers Mr. STEPHAN (Gympie) (2.56 p.m.): I have had nobody to represent them, and it should like to congratulate the Minister on is a good move to bring them under ·the the introduction of this Bill. The vegetable control of a sectional group committee of industry in Queensland will now have a the C.O.D. Most of us would be aware­ reasonably united front. Previously, the those who are not in the Chamber may not heavy produce growers had another type of know and may not be ·interested in knowing representation. When it fell by the wayside, -that the sectional group committees have they were left on their own, and it is worked exceptionally well in the pineapple, encouraging to know that the growers have papaJ\V and banana industries and have pro­ seen fit to support this proposal. I am sure vided very effective methods of marketing that they will not be disappointed. On the throughout Queensland. Their efforts should national level, when the vegetable growers be recognised. Without those sectional were represented by the C.O.D. and the group committees the marketing system over heavy produce growers were represented by the past 20 or so years would have been the U.G.A., two bodies represented the in an even bigger shambles than it is today. industry. That was not desirable. Let us go back a ,few years to the days The heavy produce growers will be repre­ of the Potato Marketing Board and the sented by six growers acting under the aus­ Onion Matketing Board. Why are those pices of the vegetable sectional group boards no longer in existence? The real committee. In addition there will be two difficulty was the farmer's natural greed and members of the vegetable sectional group the problems that arose in the marketing committee itself who are heavy produce system generally. We all know the problems growers. So there will be eight represent­ faced by farmers, the sort of money they atives on the committee, which will be in receive for their crops and the amount that the form of a subcommittee of the vegetable consumers pay for that produce. I have sectional group. Growers will have nothing mentioned this time and time again in to fear from this sort of arrangement, even this House but let me remind members though it may be in the short term. In that when 'things were pretty good in the the long term, when the industry gets on potato and onion industries and the boards its feet, I see no reason why they could were operating properly, there ,was a flu.ctua­ not have another look at their representa­ tion of prices in the Queensland ~nd mter­ tion. Perhaps they might be able to have state markets. When southern pnces were a group covering only themselves. It is high Queensland growers would bypass the a matter for them to decide if and when boards and sell interstate. Section 92 of the occasion arises. the Commonwealth Constitution allows for The fact that only half of the growers that. The growth .of this practice over the saw fit to vote in this poll is not very years led to the phasing out of the boards unusual. Quite often, growers tend to because they ,were no longer able to operate forget or ignore these things or leave them properly and could not get the support of the to someone else, so the voting percentage is <>rowers who were selling interstate. not of great importance. However, it is "' I believe that the Bill's provisions will a matter of concern that people do not see bring Queensland growers b.ack into the fit to put a pen to paper. marketing system, and we w1ll be able to 2850 Fruit Marketing, &c., Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Qld Institute ofMedical, &c., Bill

exert some overall control over it. Bringing The industry has requested what is con­ them within the ambit of a sectional group tained in the legislation. I am pleased that ~vhich rwill handle their production and we are able to accede to its request. marketing problems will be to the advanta.ge Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. of the growers themselves and the commun!ly as a whole. COMMITTEE Mr. Blake: You feel that over the long (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) term the growers ~hemselves will be much Clauses 1 to 7, both inclusive, as read, better ofT market"w1se? agreed to. rvir. KRUGER: Overall, yes. They will Bill reported, without amendment. have to corn'? to a better understanding with the C.O.D. They 'Aill now receive the THIRD READING benefits from operating within the C.O.D. Bill, on motion of Mr. Su!li\an, by leave, svsiem whi::h growers in the pineapple and read a third time. banana industries have had. This has created a fundamcntaliy sound marketing syotem in Queensland. As I say, it was their own QUEENSLAND INSTITUTE OF MEDICAL fault, because they destroyed a board that RESEARCH ACT AMENDMENT BILL could have operated along those lines. SECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE vVe now see a very large market for Debate resumed from 11 March (see p. flowers throughout Queensland and inter­ 2603) on Sir William Knox's motion­ state. Only a few years ago the market for flowers in Queensland was almost m!, but "That the Bill be now read a second there ,was a very large and flourishing inter­ time." state market. I understand that the Queens­ Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (3.9 p.m.): The land market is now al:;o flourishing, so it Bill is a simple measure. It proposes that is understandable that that section of the a trust fund be set up to control the funds industry should also be covered by this given to the Queensland Institute of Medical legislation. It will mean that the c;.o.D. Research. The Opposition has no objection \Vill no;w be able to handle the marketmg of to the Bill. In fact, \"e wonder why it flowers. has not been introduced previously. I believe that the C.O.D. need~ revamp­ The council of the institute hen actually ing. J have mentioned this in the past, been administering three funds-a trust and :I will not miss the opportunity to men­ account fund of the Queensland Institute tion it again. It needs revamping so that we of Medical Research, a special trust fund can achien~ the type of control intended when of the Queensland Institute of Medical the C.O.D. v;as first set up. Through the Research, and an Edith and Gordon Green- sectional groups we have to promote the cod Medical Research Fund. The sum C.O.D. in order to achieve a tightening of $1.2 miiiion has been paid into the of the control of the marketing system and general fund. This money has been proYided an overall strengthening of the production by the Queensland Goyernment, largely from and marketing of our fruit and \ c:getables funds received from the Commonwealth including, in this case, the heavy vegetables and flowers. Government. The second fund contair:3 $370,000 that Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ has been received from n.riou~ sources. That Minister for Primary Industries) (3.5 p.m.), money has been donated to the Queensla!ld in reply: I thank the honourable members Institute of Medical Research by such bod1es for Bundaberg and Murrumba, who spoke as the National Health and Medical for the Opposition, for their acceptance of Research Council, the World Health 'this amending legislation. I also thank the Organisation, the University of Queensland honourable member for Gympie, who is and the University of Maryland. The coun­ involved in fruit-growing and who represents cil of the Queensland Institute of Medical a fruit-growing area, for his contribution. Research has been responsible for some These amendments will bring benefit to the reallv spectacular work in the field but, as growers. I think that the ready acceptance of the Minister oointed out, on very little money. the measure and the points of view put The trust w!l! allow the operation to come forward by honourable members indicate the under one set of guide-lines, and it will value of organised marketing. This is some­ allow the council to accept bequests and thing that the industry has wanted for some donations from various people and to invest time. I think that it is normal for these them on behalf of the institute. growers to be represented by the C.O.D. Fm the Government to allow the trust The measure allows the C.O.D. to market to use the office and staff of the council flowers. This will benefit those growers who is acceptable, indeed, sensible. Of course, send produce {o the C.O.D. The C.O.D. the council uses premises at the Royal Bris­ did not have the authority to market flowers bane Hospital. in the past. It will have it now. This puts In introducing this Bill the Minister stated the C.O.D. in the same position as other that Queen;;land was fairly poorly treated agents. by way of Commonwealth funds. As I said, Queensland Institute of Medical [20 MARCH 1980] Research Act Amendment Bill 2851 the Commonwealth Government supplies A number of projects in various research mDst of the research funds for Australia, organisations in this State have been stopped. but it has a very poor record in relation The brother of the honourable member for to the supply of money to Queensland. Ipswich West was involved in a medical The Minister cited figures for the last few research programme in this State that was years, from 1975, and said that Queensland closed down. At one stage the Minister said had received a total of $2.8 million in that there was no risk of financial cuts in research funds for a wide ambit of people the medical research field. That was on 2 and organisations, from the university to December 1979, yet within a few weeks an various semi-p

South-east Queensland that they were under I find it wbhorrent that the Government threat from cholera and that cholera organ­ has neglected major health problems in isms had been discovered in the water supply. South-east Queensland. It is ridiculous that We know that cholera is a dangerous infec­ the Commonwealth Government and the tious disease. It ·could be dealt with quite State Government have limited research easily, but the department has insisted that funds so significantly that less than 6 per the people should not know the facts. That cent of Commonwealth research funds are is what it boils down to. The Minister has being spent in Queensland, particularly when covered it up in this Parliament. He has some of the problems in this State are hidden it from the people of South-east unique. I find it a little disappointing that Queensland. Consequently, we have had fur­ some of the research being carried out by ther outbreaks of cholera. How many cases the institute has not really been associated of cholera have we really had? How long with Queensland problems. Research in this has the cholera been here? What is the State should be directed to problems assoc­ source of the cholera? We have had all sorts iated with the health of Queenslanders. of speculations. Medical authorities have postulated .theories. One has referred to I advise the Government to spend much mullet breeding in the upper reaches of the more money on research in this State and, river and transferring to freshwater creeks. ·in particular, to employ young Queenslanders in the fields in which the are trained. Young If the cholera is endemic, a5 the Minister people have been encouraged to become lab­ is now indicating it may be, the cholera virus oratory technicians and to enter the field was here long before 1977. If it is not en­ of medical research, but they are not being demic and there is a traceable source, there employed. The setting up of this trust has not been much attempt to find it. The provides a perfect opportunity to spend much Minister is telling us that in South-east more money in Queensland in various fields Queensland we must live with cholera. of medical science, and I believe that the It is a very important problem, because Government should take the bit between its the symptoms of cholera could quite easily teeth and do something about th.o problem. go undetected in South-east Queensland. They are largely those associated with poor Hon. Sir WILUAM KNOX (Nundah­ water supply or with water generally-upset Minister for Health) (3.23 p.m.), in tummies, vomiting, diarrhoea and other reply: The honourable member for Wood­ stomach complaints. As the Minister said, ridge has brought to public attention some a normal, healthy person will usually over­ matters that I should answer fairly quickly. come these problems with the assistance He commented on the failure of funds of his local general practitioner, who, with­ to reach this State from essential sources out the assistance of extensive pathology, such as the National Health and Medical would have no idea that the patient had Research Council and the Commonwealth contracted cholera. That is fairly important Government, and that is indeed unsatisfact­ when one looks at the situation in South­ ory. The failure of Federal members of east Queensland at present. Parliament to represent the State better may I remind the House that, in the Aboriginal be one reason, but I do not think so. When field in particular, we have never heard any a Federal Government of his own political further reports a:bout the Palm Island scare. colour was in office, it performed as badly Was there cholera on Palm Island? Were as any other Government in that respect. full tests carried out? Is it a fact that the 190 people who were transferred to Mr. D'Arcy: That was 1975. Your figures TownsviUe from Palm Island had symptoms cover the period from 1975 onwards. very similar to those of cholera? The Minister for Aboriginal and Island Affairs­ Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The honourable ! see that he is in the Chamber-said it member can include 1975 if he wishes. The was the result of eating green mangoes. fact that Mr. Hayden was Federal Minister Was it cholera? for Health and nothing happened, the Mr. Porter: It was a fact, too. fact that Mr. Hayden became Treasurer of Australia and nothing happened-- Mr. D'ARCY: It was a fact, was it? One hundred and ninety people had those Mr. D'Arcy: I point out that he was symptoms from eating green mangoes? The never Minister for Health. He was Minister Minister astounds me, as I am sure he for Social Security. astounds every member on this side of the House, when he says it was the result of Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The arrangements eating green mangoes. What a ridiculous were unsatisfactory. What I am trying to statement! I am sure that the large number do is to compensate for that unsatisfactory of green mangoes eaten in this State each situation. year does not result in 190 members of a community being sent to hospital. I remind As to the project at the Q.I.T., there was the House that there was a death a hiatus and it looked as if funds would associated with the Palm Island scare, and not come forward. However, I am pleased we still have not heard from the Minister to say that, as a result of political pressure for Health what caused the cholera outbreak by myself and others, funds did come for­ in South-east Queensland. ward. They are available until the end of Queensland Institute of Medical [20 MARCH 1980] Research Act Amendment Bill 2853

March, which is not far away. I hope that beings. The droppings from the flying foxes further funds will be made available to fall on green mangoes, and if the mangoes allow this worthwhile project to continue. are eaten without having been washed the Mr. D'Arcy: A lot of people left that parasite will be transmitted to human beings. project when the funds stopped. In fact, this has been found to be the case. Sir WILLIAM KNOX: I understand that Because of this information, which came they were about to leave. I am not sure from very reputable research workers at of the details. I met the people who were the university, a considerable number of involved and I realise that people were mangoes were washed and the washings were planning to leave because they thought the examined. They were found to contain some funds would be terminated. I am not sure of the parasites that could cause problems whether anyone did leave. I do know that for human beings. the team are still together and working We are not claiming that this problem is very hard in the ultrasound area, which universal at Palm Island. However, at a will result in a great breakthrough in due certain time of the year it is indeed a course. The project is yet to be completed problem and it can cause some stomach and it will take some months' work and a upsets. I do not think the claim about lot of money. I trust that the Common­ mangoes should be discounted entirely. In wealth authorities will come to the party. fact, it is not the mango itself but what is I assume that they will, but that has not on the outside of the mango that creates been confirmed. the problem. As to the role of the Institute of Medical Research in relation to cholera-! am sure Mr. D'Arcy: It was not identified as that. that the institute would be able to handle Sir WILLIA!\1 KNOX: That is correct. quite well any special research project that might need to be carried out. At this stage, Mr. D'Arcy: It is pretty far fetched. th~ information is still very scanty, in spite of the fact that over the past two Sir WILLIAM KNOX: It is not far or three ) ears a tremendous number of fetched. A number of papers have been samples have been taken in our river systems. delivered on this subject. I should bring to the attention of the The scientists at the university were most House, because the honourable member ques­ interested to receive this information, tioned this matter, the fact that in 1977, because it supported some of the views that when it was discovered that cholera was they held. I want to make it clear that in the area, all pathology departments were no common source of the problem was dis­ alerted to test for cholera. All of them covered by the pathology laboratories in have been doing so since. They were to both Townsville and Brisbane. It is sug­ test for cholera if there was any suspicion gested that, because something was dis­ that diarrhoea might be associated with it. covered, that was the cause. That is not so. Palm Island was tested for cholera and We are trying to find the common element. found not to have any cholera present. I am happy to say that the problem has I think I should correct the honourable disappeared, for the time being anyway. member's comment in that respect. Mr. D'Arcy: You still have no lead on it? Mr. D'Arcy: That is not what Dr. Scatt­ y oung has to say. Sir WILLIAM KNOX: No, and people are still looking for the cause. Once the obvious Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The honourable possibilities are eliminated, there is a vast member for Townsville has never claimed range of possibilities to be tested. that there was cholera at Palm Island in I shall now deal with the alleged cover­ this instance. ing up of information about cholera. This I should like to correct one impression information about the discovery of cholera the Opposition spokesman has. He criticised organisms in the Albert and Logan Rivers my colleague the Minister for Aboriginal was published in the report of the Director­ and Island Affairs for suggesting that green General of Health and Medical Services, mangoes might have been the source of which was tabled in this House. It was cir­ the trouble. A great deal of light-hearted culated widely and was available for public comment has been made about this sug­ comment. At no time was the information ges{ion. In fact, a number of scientists hold withheld or treated as being secret and not the view that mangoes could contribute to to be released. In recent days I have pointed the problem in some cases. out that, with the present monitoring system, we will probably find more elements of Mr. D'Arcy: In 191? cholera in the river systems and, unless there is a special reason for making a public Sir WILLIAM KNOX: I am not suggest­ announcement, I do not intend to make one ing it is so in all cases. The theory is every time a cholera organism is found. that at a certain time of the year flying If the Press, a member of Parliament or a foxes carry a parasite that has an adverse member of the public inquiries, that infor­ effect on the internal arrangements of human mation will be readily available. 2854 Qld Institute ofMedical, &c., Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Medical Act Amendment Bill

Mr. D'Arcy: That was not the case fol­ MEDICAL ACT AMENDJVIENT BILL lowing 1977, because I made several inquiries-I admit of the Minister's pre­ SECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE decessor-and the information was not given to me. I asked the then Minister for Debate resumed from 18 ·March (see p. Health several times about it in this Par­ 2795) on Mr. Wharton's motion- liament. He said that no further cholera "That the Bill be now read a second organisms had been discovered. time." Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (3.37 p.m.): Sir WILLIAM KNOX: Frankly, I do not This Bill relates to the registration in Queens­ think that my predecessor would have said land of medical practitioners under the that. I will not accept it as being a truth­ auspices of the Queensland Medical Board. ful statement. The then Minister did table The Bill provides for a change in require­ in the House reports that revealed the pre­ ments for the recognition of medical pract­ sence of cholera in samples taken over a itioners from interstate and oven,eas who long period. wish to be registered in Queensland. I am pleased that the legislation has The Australian Medical Association is very general support. I am not expecting millions much concerned about the number of over­ of dollars to flow to the Queensland Institute seas doctors entering this country. There are of Medical Research, because it is very little .plenty of unfilled specialist positions in known outside professional circles. It has been various areas, and it is important that these fully financed by the Queensland Govern­ positions should be filled only by properly ment. But for the magnificent legacy to qualified doctors. Many specialist pclsitions which the honourable member referred, most in Queensland ho::pitals remain unfilled, par­ people would not know that it is available ticularly in the psychiatric field. Applications for research and is doing an outstanding received from overseas doctors have been job. rejected by the Government and the Queens­ land Medical Board. That is understandable, It was housed in dreadful accommodation because we have a situation \vhere there is in the old buildings in Victoria Park. It a fine balance betv1 een the numb~r of doctors no\v has very modern facilities. Since the practising in Queensland and the positions improvement, the morale of the people who available. In the field of general practice, work there has lifted. Their work over the we are getting to the stage where doctors years has been very impressive. Some of are saying their incomes arc b;;ing limited. the big medical breakthroughs in the world However, in the specialist .field, particularly have been made at the Institute of Medical where the Government directly employs Research and its advice is sought inter­ medical pra.ctitioners~I refer here to the nationally on quite a number of matters. more isolated areas of the State-there is concern that suitable doctor~ cannot be The fact that the Queensland Government found to fill such positions. So what we are was financing it led people to believe that there looking for is a- happy medium in the was no need to provide any additional funds. employment of doctors in specialist positions. I hope that I can change the thinking on this matter, because some national corpor­ I believe that the State Government is ations and foundations provide funds for probably the worst employer of specialists­ medical research and they are bypassing at least the doctors in this Stat~ feel that Queensland because they feel that it is that is so. Thev feel that they get a very exclusively the province of the Queensland rough deal fro~ this Government as far Government. I hope that that will not be as salaries are concerned, and particularly the case in future. The Government will con­ in the conditions under which they have to tinue to provide funds for medical research work. Southern doctors claim that that but we expect, because of the establishment is why positions in Queensland hospitals of this trust, to see additional funds made remain unfilled. I think it is important available by national corporations and well that the Government begins to look for wishers. solutions to the problems in this area. Motion (Sir William Knox) agreed to. We have to look very seriously at the doctors who are able to practise in this State. The Minister claims that this Bill is designed to maintain the very high stand­ COMMITTEE ard of doctors who practise here. I hope (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) that is the case. The medical profession, particularly the A.M.A., is concerned about Clauses 1 to 7, both inclus1ve, as read, the problems that we could face, not at agreed to. present but during the next decade, with Bill reported, without amendment. the number of graduates from the Queens­ land University entering the medical pro­ fession in this State. The Opposition has no objection to the changes being made by THIRD READING the Bill. but it would point out that these Bill, = motion of Sir William Knox, by problems exist, and I believe that the Min­ leave, read a third time. ister should look seriously at them. Medical Act Amendment Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Medical Act Amendment Bill 2855

Mr. SHAW (Wynnum) (3.41 p.m.): This In the past the qualification restrictions appears to me to be a very important Bill. that have been placed on our own students I would have liked a little more time to have not been placed on the qualifications of have been able to relate it to the principal overseas doctors. At the present time unfor­ Act and to make some inquiries to ascertain tunately only those v,ith high T.E. scores what the Government intends to do. Unfor­ can get into universities to study medicine. tunately, the Minister did not actually give There is then a lot of pressure on them, and the reason why the amendment is being some of the young people are forced out of introduced. If, as I believe, it is to attack the course during their period at university. the problem of migrant medical practitioners, That is unfortunate, because many of those and also a projected over-supply of medical young people would make good doctors if practitioners in this country in future )ears, they were aHowed to complete their studies. then some sections of the Bill appear to fall However, because of pressures placed upon short of the mark. them and the fact that the number who The problem with migrant doctors has ultimately qualify is under the quota, they been pretty well documented. People from are kept out whilst others who are less desir­ overseas whom we would regard as being able are allowed to practise. unqualified, or certainly not as well qualified To assess the extent of this problem, it is as some of the graduates who pass through necessary to look at the number of migrant our medical schools, are registering in this doctors who have entered this country over country. I think that the Government will have to face this problem fairly shortly. recent years. Although the number has There is a similar situation with dentists and varied slightly, the yearly average is equal to other professional people. People from some the annual output of between two and four of the unstable countries are registering medical schools. In other words, if those here more or less to guarantee their future. migrant doctors were not in Australia there At the moment they have no intention of "'ould be justification for establishing here practhing here. another two to four medical schools that I am more concerned with the problem could accept and train our own young people. of the over-supply of doctors. There is an I believe that would be a step forward rather over-supply of doctors already in this State. than a step backward. The Sax report stated- "The Departments of Health 'lnd Although I said that some of the immi­ Employment and Youth Affairs should grant doctors come here because the grass co-operate with the Department of is greener, I will accept that in some cases Immigration and Ethnic Affairs in a review there may be other, such as professional, of the composition and characteristics reasons. However, in the great percentage of of medical practitioners entering Australia, cases they come here for one reason and one "ith a Yiew to revising the administration reason only-money. If they were dedicated of current procedures as necessary with to providing care and help for poor people primary emphasis being placed on the and working in some of the less attractive availability of firm job offers." fields of medicine, they would stay in their own countries. The reason for the large I ask the Minister, in his reply, to advise influx of doctors into Australia from Zim­ the House if that is what he intends to do. babwe is our more stable political climate, Besides requiring firm job offers, does he but they are also coming here because more also ,intend to require residency in this money can be made here. country? For some years, doctors in Rhodesia have been registering as medical Those doctors v,ill not be attracted to the practitioners in Australia in case they neerled areas where they are most needed, such as to come here in the future. the Outback, small country towns and the fields of mental health and geriatrics-all The A.M.A. and similar bodies have also areas where extra doctors can be used. How­ recommended that, in order to combat this, ever, they will not be attracted to those there should be a 20 per cent reduction in the fields; they will want to set up expensive admissions to medical schools in this country. clinics in the cities to attract wealthy clients There has been a cut•back in admissions. who can afford to pay. They will also want A type of rationing is already being applied to make full use of the medical funds to the numbers of people who are being operating in this country and there is a permitted to qualify as medical practitioners danger that they will cause a further drain in Australia. I believe it is quite wrong on those funds. I,f there is an over-supply of that we should make it easier for medical doctors, those funds may be drained even practitioners from another country to come further if medical practitioners indulge in here and practise whilst at the same time giving unnecessary treatment. Pe11haps it is we are ma!cing it harder for our own people a little unkind to say that, hut one must to qualify as doctors. I do not think that the admit that that sort of pressure rwill be doctors we get here will be of the type there. we really want. In most cases the people who wish to immigrate to this country want A situation could then arise ,in which our to come here for only one reason-the grass own newly graduated doctors would be con­ is greener here than where they are living scripted 1into compulsory schemes to provide at present. services such as I have described in small 2856 Medical Act Amendment Bill [20 MARcH 1980] Medical Act Amendment Bill

communities and in areas where there is a up pmctice should be a resident in the shortage of doctors. That suggestion was country and not be just reserving himself also made in the Sax report which S'tates- a position for later on. "That the options for making best use We have had the problem-! think it still of the increasing supply of doctorrs occur­ exists in the field of dentistry--of graduates ring between now and 1991 be further from places like Rhodesia (from where we examined by the Department of Health will get a rush of people) graduating from with the object of providing firm proposals universities where English is not even spoken. for consideration during the review pro­ I know that the Minister mentioned this posed for August 1979. Some of the pos­ matter in his speech, but I think a lot more sible options are set out in an attachment needs to be said about the fact that gradu­ and relate to: ates from overseas need to undergo some • absorbing any surplus into existing sort of examination. There needs to be a occupational categories stricter requirement to ensure that no pro­ e the introduction of some form of blem arises because of this aspect. I have national medical service for recent spoken to people in the profession who are medica:! graduates most concerned about it. • the development of mechanisms to In conclusion and very briefly, I point out ensure that the deployment and types that the oversupply of doctors will not lead, of medicaJI practitioners reflect the as some people appear to think, to a lessen­ particular medical services needs of ing in the cost of medical services. In fact, specific localities and population if anything, it will lead to a more expensive groups service. Therefore, the public has an interest • the development of programs to in ensuring that we overcome the problem encourage doctors to practise in the and that we do no't have more medical compartively neglected areas of medi­ practitioners than we have positions for cine; especially in health education, them. rehabilitation, menta1 he,a1th services, geriatrics and preventative medicine." Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (3.55 p.m.): I do It certainly will not be the migrant do·ctors not think that anyone in general terms has who will be going to those areas. It will spoken against the principles embodied in be newly gradua:ted people from our own the majm part of the Bill, which refers tn country. While it may be necessary for that qualifying procedures to be imposed upon to happen, I would hate to see those gradu­ medical practitioners before they are regis­ a:tes pena:Iised at the expense of the over­ tered. However, I have severe reservations supply we presently have. The position is about the mechanism that is being used and, absurd. To my knowledge the Australian in particular, about the fact that in certain Department of Immigration is still spending circumstances the Act itself wiH lay down money encouraging more and more docto·rs no objective standaTds or objective tests that to migrate to this country. They are being must be applied. In addition, the Bill has told about a need here and growing oppor­ a major fault, to my way of thinking, in tunities every day, at a time when already that it asks Parliament to allow Acts of Par­ in some States there is an oversupply. liament to be amended without reference to the members of this Assembly. It should be a requirement-it may exist, As my criticisms of the Bill require an but I have not been able to find it; I ask examination of the exact wording of clause the Minister to clear this point up for me­ 19, I consider that it would be best to leave that if a doctor is to be registered he be my major arguments till consideration of the a permanent resident of this State. This was clauses. one of the suggestions fmm the A.M.A., I think. It was certainly the opinion of many Dr. SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsvillel (3.56 professional medical bodies in this country p.m.): For many years we have had in that that be a requirement. I think it is Queensland probably the most satisfactory reasonable, as it would help to overcome form of medical practice, because in Queens­ the problem of people reserving a spot here land, as .in no other State, a medical graduate in case they wanted it in the future. has been allowed to practise with very little interference and in specialties as he wished. I would like to make it clearly understood We have had a multi-tiered system of that we wiLl always require specialist doctors medical practice. We have had the full-time to come to this country. I do not think we specialist; we have had the part-time specialist should do anything-! know that nothing who was paid on a sessional basis; we have being done by this legislation will have this had the general practitioner; and we have effect-that will have the effect of precluding had people who could be part of each. hospitals or any other branch of medicine A man could be a general practitioner and from attracting specialists who we feel are still have a hospital appointment on a needed here. In such instances it is entirely paid sessional basis. The system in Queens­ reasonable that they come here on the pro-. land, as it stood for many years, made the mise of a position without being permanent practice of medicine very satisfactory and residents. However, it is entirely reasonable satisfying for members of the medical pro­ that the ordinary G:P. who wants to set fession. Medical Act Amendment Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Medical Act Amendment Bill 2857

'In recent years, there has been a great convey in English the symptoms to a foreign increase in the number of full-time practi­ practitioner. Sometimes I think it would tioners in specialist groups, particularly at be easier to go to a chiropractor or to a base hospitals. We also have an educational chemist and buy a pill off the counter. system that creates problems in the number Some of .these people just cannot understand of medical graduates, in that the entry to what is being said to them and it is some­ universities is being made astronomically high times extremely difficult to understand them. and a different type of person is now enter­ A lot can be lost in a consultation involving ing the field of medicine in this State. them. We should ensure that graduates who This has been the subject of a great deal come here have a good command of the of review and discussion amongst members English language. of the medical profession and amongst The previous speaker spoke at length about academics, so much so that one university doctors of Rhodesia. Most of the medical in Australia has decided that it will intervie~w practitioners of Rhodesia graduated from all prospective medical students to see either English universities and medical whether ~they are correctly oriented, mentally schools, which are of a high standard, or as well as academically, to the practice of South African universities, which have a medicine and also delve into their ethical standard equal to ours. Any Rhodesian prac­ approach to medicine and the treatment of tioners who wish to come here would have the sick. This practice rWill eventually have qualifications acceptable to us. to be used nation-wide, because at the moment we are getting a group of people Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah­ who are academically brilliant and emotion­ Minister for Health) (4.1 p.m.), in reply: ally and ethically barren, with the result I thank honourable members for their interest that the profession is now more oriented in the Bill. I feel I should answer some towards money and position than towards of the matters that have been raised. the practice of medicine and the art of Migrant doctors who come here are obliged healing. to provide evidence of employment. Indeed, ~ believe that the Department of Educa­ the immigration authorities check with the tion has done a great disservice to the med­ Director-General of Health to determine ical profession by raising the standard of whether a migrant doctor has been offered entry to universities, and I hope that the a substantial position in this country. That University of Queensland takes stock and is done before he is allowed into the country. reviews its present position. Honourable members might be interested Personally, I believe that the higher the to know that, as a result of a general entrance examination standard for overseas tightening up in recent times, on the aver­ graduates, the better, because even if we age approximately 30 doctors come here set standards for overseas graduates, we do from overseas each year. A few years not have the detailed results of their exam­ ago the annual number was approximately inations overseas and we do not kno,w what 600. A great number of doctors registered went on in those examinations. Therefore, in Queensland and in Australia see fit for there should be some hurdle-a written various reasons, such as to carry out post­ examination and an oral examination-to graduate work, to go overseas and practice. jump before persons are allowed to practise They are, of course, still registered here in this country. This becomes very obvious and are entitled to come back at any time. with some of the Asian groups. The stand­ Oversupply in the medical profession is ard ,in some Asian universities is not nearly a cause of concern. The honourabb mem­ as high as it is in our universities and ber for Wynnum is quite correct in suggest­ the courses are not nearly as detailed, and ing that an oversupply of doctors does not they are not nearly as advanced in the lead to a lowering of costs or a reduction surgical field as we are. in work. In fact, because of the way the medical profession tends to generate work rl note in the Bill that the Minister speaks rather than reduce it, the opposite seems of giving temporary registration to visiting to be the position. If a doctor sets up specialists who come here, probably to do practice in a small town that did not pre­ research work, to demonstrate, or to give viously have a doctor either at all or for lectures. That is a very good idea, because some time, he will be surprised by the large it will give those people some standing and number of sick people who come along to also give them a chance to perform opera­ see him. Previously they were not inclined tions and demonstrate their skills in this to make the special effort to visit a doctor country. An internationally famous surgeon in another town. It is a feature of the who may not be registered in Australia medical profession that it tends to create should be able to accept temporary registra­ work rather than reduce it. tion so that he can demonstrate to students or post-graduate students a particular opera­ The fact that the costs will still be there tive procedure. The proposed provision is a matter for concern. The oversupply will be a great advance. in the medical profession is somewhat aggra­ vated by the shortening of the course in I am also very pleased to see that the New South Wales. It was a matter of con­ spoken English test has not been done away cern that in South Australia in particular with. From my own experience as a medical the floodgates were opened to allow medical practitioner, I know it is most difficult to practitioners from many foreign countries 2858 Medical Act Amendment Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Medical Act Amendment Bill

to obtain registration. I understand that That is executive government at its worst. the policy in that State has now been changed. Every Bill introduced lately contained a Neverthekss, many hundreds of doctors were regulation to that effect. It means that able to obtain registration in Australia as Executive Council can govern without the a result of what I would regard as capricious authority of this Parliament. It gives the behaviour on the part of the South Australian Government an out on every occasion. The Government at that time. Opposition opposes that principle. The ability to speak English is funda­ Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah­ mental and is still provided in the legislation. Minister for Health (4.9 p.m.): The honour­ It is important that that be so. The regis­ able member did not advance any reason tration board has an opportunity to examine why it should not be done. personally doctors who wish to be registered in this State. It can discover whether an Mr. D'Arcy: A hospital board is being applicant for registration has a command directed by authority. of the English language. The unfilled vacancy problem still exists Sir WILLIAM KNOX: The buck has to in certain specialities. While there might be stop somewhere. Hospital boards are sub­ an oversupply of doctors and while most servient to the Government of the day. vacancies have been filled, there are still Mr. D'Arcy: I am pleased to hear that. vacancies in some specialities. I think I gave That has been denied a few times on that a Iist of them to the House last year in side of the Chamber. answer to a question asked

degree of flexibility so that the Medical Board with some binding in of the Governor in is able to make that recognition. Keeping Council to the regulations. I do not see in mind that the Medical Board is com­ why these qualifications, or these changes prised of senior medical practitioners in this in reciprocal arrangements and descriptions, State, the Director-General of Health and could not be done by regulation. other people who have long been associated with the medical profession, I think it is The guardianship of a regulation is that a delegation of authority that we can safely it can only be made within certain tested leave with the board. parameters laid down by an Act of Par­ liament. All regulatory powers that are laid The alteration of the Act from time to down do that. They say, "Within the powers time as may be necessary would be an of this Act and subject to so-and-so and impediment to the passing of legislation in for the purposes of such-and-such, regula­ this House. I might say that the honourable tions may be made." That is a legitimate member has been a very active member of process. We would be knee-deep in legisla­ the Subordinate Legislation Committee, which tion 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year, made representations to me that this matter if we did not have regulations. They have should be altered. I indicated that that view been accepted now in parliamentary circles would be taken into consideration. It has for 60 years, and rightly so. They are an been taken into consideration by Cabinet, absolutely necessary mechanism. They are by my committee and by other colleagues, a well-developed mechanism. They are a and it has been decided that this procedure mechanism which has inbuilt checks and is the only practical way of dealing with it. balances. Unlike amendments to second schedules and things like that, regulations Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (4.25 p.m.): I are quite specifically stated to be disallow­ agree entirely with the Minister that it able by the House of Par.Jiam·ent. would be extremely tedious to bring back into the Parliament amendments to the sec­ Orders in Council, on the other hand, ond schedule as it is presently structured fall into a somewhat more nebulous cate­ every time we wanted it changed. The Minis­ gory. Some of them are; some of them are ter stated quite correctly that he needs to not. There is a state of confusion about have the ability to change the descriptions when they are t·abled and what happens if and the qualifications of various bodies over­ they are not tabled in the Parliament. With seas from time to time. I recognise that. regulations, it is all clear-cut. A regulation However, what I am objecting to is that must be made within the porwer granted in there are no objective tests to be applied. the Act. A regulation must be made around If the intent of the Bill is to allow flexibility the objective tests applied to that power so that the qualifications to various higher as given by Parliament. A regulation must institutions can be amended from time to be tabled in the Parliament within 14 si~ting time, why don't we say so? Why don't we days of its being made. A regulation is adopt another mechanism which I suggest capable of being disallowed by the Parlia­ to the Minister? I acknowledge that other ment. A regulation is a normal part of our Bills have things of this sort in them and, legislative process. if the Minister thinks back, he will recall Why then not lay down objective tests that I objected to all of those, too, when to do the sorts of quite acceptable things my attention was drawn to them. that the Minister proposes should be done There are two different ways in which to by this power, give the objective tests, give handle the problem. One is to put it in a the regulatory power and, if necessary, bind schedule and say that the schedule will be it to the Medical Board if that is what the amended by Act of Parliament. The second Minister desires? I do not seek to write his and more usual mechanism used by Executive legislation for him; but I am sure Parliament Government is the nomination of a set of would not restrict the powers of the Medical objective tests and then to allow regulations Board, being what it is, to lay down things to be made to clarify or to lay down further of this sort. But, for Heaven's sake, why details of what is required. That, I suggest, use this mechanism of a schedule to an Act is the classic and accepted parliamentary being amended by a body other than Parlia­ method of delegating detailed mechanism to ment when there exists in law, in practice, Executive Government. and in precedent, the accepted and well­ tried method of the regulation to implement I do not criticise the Medica.! Board. The the Executive Government's wishes in small Medical Board contains a great deal of skill matters falling under the ambit of Acts of and expertise among its number. But it will Parliament? I see no reason why it should not be the Medical Board that will amend not have been done by regulation under this the second schedule; it will be the Governor Act, and I see a great deal to commend in Council. If the Minister wanted to place the use of that instrument rather than the this in the hands of the Medical Board, method that has been used. I would suggest that the proper mechanism­ the accepted mechanism and the more logical Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah­ mechanism-would not be a second schedule Minister for Health) (4.31 p.m.): I think capable of being amended by the Governor I should take on board the views of the in COIUilcil but in fact a set of objective honourable member for Stafford. He has tests laid out followed by a regulatmy power spent a great deal of time on this subject, 86501-98 2862 Medical Act and Other, &c., Bill [20 MARCH 1980] Queensland Law Society, &c., Bill as one can see and hear. He is quite THIRD READING correct in saying that there is another way Bill, on motion of Sir William Knox, by in which this can be done, but it has been leave, read a third time. preferred to do it this way. If in the future this is looked at again, I will consider the other mechanism to which he refers. QUEENSLAND LAW SOCIETY ACT Clause 3, as read, agreed to. AMENDMENT BILL

Bill reported, without amendment. SECOND READING---RESUMPTION OF DEBATE Debate resumed from 11 March (see p. THIRD READING 2621) on Mr. Lickiss's motion- Bill, on motion of Sir William Knox, by "That the Bill be now read a second leave, read a third time. time." Mr. R. J. GIBBS (Wolston) (4.36 p.m.): The Bill is a relatively simple one. I sup­ MEDICAL ACT AND OTHER ACTS pose that the most significant amendment (ADMINISTRATION) ACT AMEND­ is that which provides that the council of MENT BILL the society shall consist of not less than 11 or more than 14 members. The Act pro­ SECOND READING---RESUMPTION OF DEBATE vided for not less than 10 or more than 13 members. The Act refers to the pre­ Debate resumed from 18 March (see p. sident and vice president of the society; the 2796) on Mr. Wharton's motion- Bill refers as well to a deputy president. "That the Bill be now read a second A close examination of the Bill raises a time." number of vexing questions. I shall certainly pursue them with the Minister at the Com­ Mr. D'ARCY (Woodridge) (4.33 p.m.): The mittee stage. For example, I shall be refer­ Bill brings into line the Occupational Thera­ ring to the new section 4A, which refers pists Aot and the Speech Therapists Act so to the president of the society holding office that the boards established under them will for one year. That new section provides- be on a financial basis in conformity with that of other boards throughout the State. The "Upon the expiration of the president's Opposition has no objection to the proposal. term of office the deputy president, if there is one at that time, shall assume I ask the Minister to indicate when he is the office of president whereupon a vacancy going to do something about introducing a shall exist in the office of deputy pre­ Dental !Technicians Registration Bill. It is sident, which shall not be filled until the about time that he did. next election or appointment of all officers of the Society as prescribed." Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah­ I find that somewhat ambiguous in that Minister for Health) (4.34 p.m.), in reply: it does not specify that the person who fills Might I say that the introduction of this the position of president after having been Bill probably is one of the occasions on which deputy president necessarily has to be elected. Parliament takes a great deal of time amend­ ing a very small matter. I hope that if I have already said that the council of it is necessary in future to bring in an amend­ the society is to be enlarged. That will ing Bill or to introduce new legislation of necessitate an increase in the quorum of substance in which it is necessary to attend the council from five to seven members. to something such as this, it will all be The most alarming portion of the Bill is done in the one Bill and it will not be the following paragraph- necessary to introduce two separate Bills. "The exercise of a power or the per­ As to the dental technicians-it is Gov­ formance of a function of the council ernment policy not to licence dental tech­ shall not be affected by the fact that at nicians and provide them with chair-side the ti!lle of such exercise or performance status. At the same time, there is a pos­ a vacancy existed in the membership of sibility of Hcensing dental technicians with the council or that the election or appoint­ certain limitations. I have considerable sup­ ment of any member of the council was port for that in the various dental profes­ defective." sions. Unfortunately, some of the people The questionable section of that paragraph is concerned have opposed the proposal the one reading- vigorously and do not want it, so at this stage it is still in the melting pot. "or that the election or appointment of any member of the council was defective." Motion (Sir William Knox) agreed to. I find that to be somewhat offensive. Imagine if it were adopted right across the CoMMITTEE board and, for instance, in the election of (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) a trade union official. Under this principle, even if an irregularity had occurred dur­ Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, as read, ing the ballot for his election, he could still agreed to. be a party to making decisions that affected Bill reported, without amendment. the central body. Queensland Law Society [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2863

Under the Bill a person who might have that the whole emphasis of the law in this been wrongfully elected to the council of State today should be on looking for a sim­ the Queensland Law Society would still be plification of the legal system so that it able to take part in deci5rons made by the will become more open and available to the coundl, and those decisions would have man in the street. effect. The membership of the council will be increased to 14. If a vote were tied at While dealing with the Queensland Law seven all, that person would have been Society, I will very quickly make a refer­ instrumental in the decision going either way. ence to a Press release by Sir William Knox on 4 December 1975 when he said that It is necessary to make a number of allegations of misconduct by solicitors should comments about the Queensland Law Society be made to the Queensland Law Society. itseLf. He was completely right, of course, but I Mr. Gygar: It did a sterling job in striking suggest that when complaints of this type off a malefactor for five years, didn't it? are heard by the Queensland Law Society it should be in public. In other words, Mr. R. J. GIBBS: I take that interjection. once the complaint is made I believe that I make it very clear that the Jaws in Queens­ the Queensland Law Society should be pre­ land govern all people in Queensland. I am pared to hear the evidence against their not Mr. Mellifont's keeper. He carries his own in a public forum. I am not suggesting own responsibility. If he was found guilty for one moment that the doors should be of the charges laid against him, he deserved thrown open and 200 or 300 people allowed to be deaJt with as he was. I make no into a meeting, but in the case of a complaint apologies for saying that. against a solicitor I believe the person mak­ The Queensland Law Society, whilst it ing the complaint should be brought before handles complaints by the public against the society with his own legal representative, solicitors and other people involved in legal if he so desires, or with someone to speak practice who have not played their role on his behalf. according to ethic5, as is expected of mem­ bers oil' that ·fine profession, acts as a defence Mr. lnnes: Is a person allowed into a committee which looks after the interests of disciplinary committee of a trade union or its own-the solicitors. of the A.L.P.? I shall refer to some matters that have appeared in the Press over the years. "The Mr. R. J. GIBBS: I am not talking a:bout Courier"Mail" of 7 March 1977 carried the the trade union movement or the A.L.P. headline, "Solicitors seek a better image." If we want to use that argument, does the The Queensland Law Society and the Bar same thing apply to the National Party? Associat·ion were endeavouring to get the Does it apply to the Liberal Party? l public to think more highly of members of am not talking party politics. I am a little the legal profession. In "The Courier-Mail" disappointed that the honourable member of 25 January 1977, the Queensland Law would throw up that sort or argument. Society came out and strongly defended After all, he is one of the people who, members of the legal profession against when he entered this House, professed to charges made by certain members of the be one of the young democrats of the Queensland Police Force who accused Liberal movement. I suggest that the public Queensland solicitors of deliberately fab­ should be able to participate in the hearing ricating evidence ·in cases, usually against the of charges against solicitors or others police. involved in the legal profession. Where While that is the primary function of the there is some complaint of malpractice or Queensland Law Society, it is fair to say that, unethical conduct I believe an open hearing in the eyes of the Queensland public, that would be a far better public relations exercise society is a semi-secret organisation. It is for the legal fraternity in Queensland and not often open to the gaze of the public. would improve the reputation now held by Complaints against members of the legal pro­ it in many quarters. I do not want it to be fession are dealt with by the members of said that I am casl'ing a slur on the legal that society and the hearings or discussions profession. Let us face it: it does not matter are held in complete privacy. whether it is politicians, the Queensland Police Force, trade unions or the legal pro­ The law not only in Queensland but in fession. I believe there are people of Australia should be simplified so that it can questionable ethics in all those areas. be understood by laymen. I cannot empha­ Nobody denies that. Unfortunately, because sise that point enough. We have only to there are people of that type a slur cast look at the legal terms that are used dailv on them has a tendency to permeate right in the courts of law in Queensland and to through the organisation or profession to read the various Acts that apply to under­ which they belong. But I believe that if stand thM. In fact, one could forgive mem­ hearings were thrown open the public would bers of the general public for not under­ be far more easily convinced that they were standing even an everyday summons that is dealing with honest and ethical men. serv~d on them, perhaps for not paying a parkmg fine or something of that nature. Mr. Gygar: If you did that, you would have Many of the words used in such documents to acknowledge that the persons who are are very confusing to the layman. I believe prepared to give evidence before that sort 2864 Queensland Law Society [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill of tribunal would have to be granted similar approaches of the past, designed in times protection to that given to witnesses in a less sensitive to the poor, deprived and civil court action. minority groups in the community." Mr. R. J. GffiBS: I cannot see any Considering some of the problems in today's reason why that should not apply. soc.iety, I believe that that is certainly a fittmg statement ,to make. The article It would be interesting to know how many continued- cases have actually been dealt with by the " 'It is a point of principle in a demo­ Queensland Law Society over say the past cracy that citizens should have a say in 10 years and, indeed, to kno~ th~ outcome the design of laws that govern them ' he of those cases. I am aware of the cl'iticism said. ' leve~led by the society at, if my memory servrse me correctly, the honourable mem­ 'Increasingly, there is an awareness that b.er. for Salis!:mry when she made remarks a theoretical say through elected repre­ similar to mme back in 1976. I am also sentatives is not always adequate because awru:e that the Q~eensland Law Society of pressures of party politics and heady reqmr~ t.hB;t complamts go before its statu­ political debates.' " tory disciplmary committee. Sometimes I :I doubt whether many members in this wo~der w~ether when people are actually Chamber would disagree ;with those senti­ 'tryi.ng their ?\"!! or hearing cases against ments expressed by Mr. Justice Kirby. !he1~ own wit;hm a profession that prides I believe that the recent step taken by Itself on, .and 1~ ':ery Jealous of, its integrity the Queensland Law Society to charge a ~d standmg WI!~n the community, a certain fixed fee of $10 for a 20-minute consultation bias or favouritism is not shown towards is certainly a move in the right direction. a fellow member ~f the society. In other Am excellent directory has been published, W?r~s, I a~ . c~llmg for an improvement and [ think that it has been made available Withm the. JUdici~l processes in Queensland, to all members of this Parliament. It has and. certamly w1thm the Queensland Law also been distributed to social security and Society, because I am sure that many mem­ welfare services, counselling bodies, police bers. on both . sides of the House have stations, clerks of the court and similar received con;plamts against members of the officers who attract public inquiry and give legal professiOn. advice throughout Queensland. During. the 2t years I have been a mem­ When one considers ,the problems of ethnic ber of .this Parliament, I have received four groups in the community it is very hearten­ compla1nts. One concerned 1he exol'bitant ing to note that this directory lists the names a:I~ount of money that a solicitor charged his of lawyers who are proficient in particular clwnt. I ,think that it was $2,300. The foreign languages. Those lawyers are prom­ ge~tleman came 'to see me. He had been inently identified throughout the directory, gomg through ,a very traumatic experience as are those who have some knowledge of a for three months, ,wondering how he would particular foreign legal system. The Queens­ pay this account. He did not know where land Law Society has done not only itself but to turn for advice. Finally he came to see also the Queensland legal profession as a m.e. He sat down and discussed the matter whole a very great favour, because far too With I?e. I referred him to a legal friend often some people in the community are of m;ne. Under the statutes, a person totally ignorant of the legal services avail­ who IS sent. an ~ccount ,is allowed only able to them. In many cases they are afraid two. months m which to lodge an objection to approach people within the legal fraternity. agamst the amount ,charged. Because this Indeed, on many occasions, because people gentleman had not lodged an objection he are afraid to approach the legal profession was legally obliged to pay an account 'that ,they hang back and hang back until ulti­ was far in excess of what should have been mately they are in so much trouble that charged. ,J know that other members on they do not know where to turn. Any steps this side of the Chamber have received that ,the Queensland Law SOciety takes to similar complaints on many occasions. make sure that the public has more ready ,I acknowledge that it is not ,the first access to the legal profession are ,to the time that a call has been made in this betterment of the law in the State. Chamber, and elsewhere, for improvements Mr. INNES (Sherwood) (4.56 p.m.): I rise !O be made to the legal system not only with some pleasure to agree with many of m Queensland but throughout Australia. In the sentiments uttered by my neighbour (in fact, probably the most outstanding call electorate terms) and colleague the honour­ was made by Mr. Justice Kirby on 14 able member for Wolston. The statements of July 1979. A Press article headed "Reform applause that he gave the Queensland Law judge hits at 'social myopia' among lawyers" Society are timely because the Law Society stated- clearly has concerned itself with its role as "Lawyers sometimes suffered from social an organisation of practising lawyers. That short-sightedness, the chairman of the Law role continues to change and continues to Reform Commission, Mr. Justice Kivby be reappraised to stay in tune with the times said yesterday. ' in which it operates. He said lawyers inevitably tended to see There is no doubt that there has been social problems in a special way, often much criticism of the profession. In fact, blinkered by the comfortable and familiar it started in Roman times. Together with Queensland Law Society [20 MARCH 1980] Act Amendment Bill 2865

politicians, lawyers are probably the most Liberal Party and the National Party) is vilified of professionals on earth. The reality entitled to police its own activities-when the is that the law must be always subject to actions investigated do not reach the level scrutiny, because the law is meeting a chang­ of criminal or civil liability but offend ing community with changing habits. It is against the rules of the occupation or pro­ easier to say that the law must be intelligible, fession. That is what has been in question. that it must be simple and that it must lack A question was asked in this House last complexity, than it is to arrive at the year about the number of times the mem­ answer and to meet those criticisms to avoid bers of the statutory committee met. In such situations. modern times, it is almost weekly, when they As long as people call for more regula­ arbitrate on anything from small pecca­ tions, as long as people ask Governments to dilloes to more serious matters of profes­ do for them things that they could do for sional behaviour. They have clearly shown themselves, there will be laws and regula­ that they are prepared to act. If a person tions, and there will be an increasing com· is subject to the suspension or cancellation of plexity of our legislative fabric. The prob­ his certificate and believes he has been lem of complexity, I suggest, simply is wronged, he can appeal to the courts, where insoluble. It can certainly be lessened but it the normal rules apply. The matter is ~hen cannot be reduced .to a level at which all scrutinised by a judge. However, the Opposi­ laymen will understand all laws. The aver­ tion cannot have it both ways. The profession age members of this Parliament would know cannot be criticised for governing its own, -and one would surmise or suggest that they and then be criticised when it does govern are at least of average to above-average its own and acts decisively. It .is my sub­ intelligence-that the complexity of the laws mission that, whilst there have been experi­ that they look at daily is such that most of ments to introduce representatives of the the Acts of this State would still cause them community onto professional committees, the problems, and that the amendments to the profession in this Sta

If action is to be taken, let it be taken of success. The Queensland Law Society by way of a recommendation from the is progressive and responsible, and it renders Crown Law Office to the Queensland Law an essential service to the community at Society. That is what must be done if the large. I have always found it to be respon­ principle of self-regulation is to be main­ sive and helpful. I meet the Law Society tained. and the Bar Association regularly on a Again I say the amendments will not monthly basis. It is of great assistance to overcome the problems. I would ask the me to be able to discuss the problems that Minister to meet with the Queensland Law it faces and various other matters of com­ Society and to ask other members of the mon interest. The Law Society has no peer profession throughout Queensland for their in Australia in its attendance to the affairs opinions on the best way to overcome this of solicitors. growing problem. I would ask him to con­ The honourable member far Wolston sider my suggestion. If implemented, it would rightly ranged over a number of matters require a legislative change and the employ­ that are of concern to him. ment of additional staff in the Crown Law Office. As the honourable members for Rock­ hampton and Sherwood said, solicito~s· costs In other countries, politicians carry out can be taxed. There have been occasions similar roles. I do not suggest that we when people have complained to me that do so here. However, that is certainly so the fees of their counsel or solicitar have in Great Britain and America. We ought been abnormally high. I have referred those to use the facilities available through the matters to the Law Society direct and it Crown Law Office to thoroughly investigate has taken a very keen interest in ensuring the numerous complaints that people make about solicitors. that justice was done. At present I have a complaint concerning The Queensland Law Society's request for a solicitor who has been handling a matter these amendments is reasonable and will make for 15 months. Recently I had another com­ for the better functioning of that society in plaint concerning a maintenance order. It undertaking its responsibiJities in this State. was supposed to be dealt with and a sum­ Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. mons was supposed to be served. However, nothing had been done. The solicitor in CoMMITTEE question tried to blame a bailiff in another town. We found out that that attempt to (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) blame the bailiff was not valid. It is very Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, as read, difficult to know what can be done. The agreed to. solicitor will say one thing; the bailiff will say another. We must clamp down very Bill reported, without amendment. hard on some of these persons who are not doing their job. THmD READING I ask the Minister that he consider my Bill, on motion of Mr. Lickiss, by leave, suggestions. I welcome the role that the read a third time. Queensland Law Society is playing. I am thankful for the assistance that it gives members of Parliament and the community. INDUSTRY AND OOMMtERCE However, I am not sure that that should TR'AINING ACT A:MENDM'ENT BILL be its sole task. I feel that officers of the Crown Law Office have a specific role to Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL ('Aspley-Minister play in acting upon complaints made by for Labour Relations), by leave, without members of the public. notice: I move-- Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ "That leave be granted to bring in a Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) Bhll to amend the Industry and Commerce (5.13 p.m.), in reply: I thank honourable Train1ng Act 1979 Jn certain particulars." members, particularly the honourable member Motion agreed to. for Sherwood, for their contribution. The honourable member for Sherwood set the record straight in relation to a few of the FJRST READING points raised by the honourable member for Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Wolston. Campbell, read a first time. All honourable members will appreciate that the Queensland Law Society is a most SECOND READING responsible body and that the amendments, which were sought by the society, are in Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley-Minis­ the nature of domestic amendments affecting ter for Labour Relations) (5.20 p.m.): I only the members of the society. move- I am a great believer in the imposition "That the Bill be now read a second by professional bodies of self-regulation on time." their members. The Queensland Law Society There is one very important reason for the has demonstrated that it accepts this respon­ introduction of this amending legislation at sibility and has achieved a marked degree this stage. It is the delay in reinstating in 2868 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

law the discreNonary authority of the Minis­ tabled in this House on 5 December 1978, t~r in relation to apprenticeships and educa­ 27 March 1979, 24 May 1979, 7 June 1979, tJ~nal standar~s whioh is the consequence of 9 August 1979, 4 October 1979 and 11 this aspect bemg overlooked when !eo-islative March 1980." re5ponsibility was ,transferred fro~ the former Apprenticeship Act to the Industry Mr. FOURAS (South Brisbane) (5.25 and Commerce T,raining Act. p.m.): At the adjournment of the debate I The Bill will continue the ministerial dis­ was making the point that the Minister was, cretion to exempt certain applicants from ~n his own words, very apologetic that the the p~ovisions of the Industry and Commerce cuts that were made in education spending Trammg Act 1979 ,reJating to minimum were "not my recommendation and . . . standard of education for entry into an (were) against my better judgment". I believe apprenticeship. that the worst aspect of the last State Budget was the education cut~backs. I As honourable members would know the believe that the Treasurer tPied ,to sell this Apprenticeship Act 1964--1974, which' was Parliament and the electorate of Queensland repealed by the Industry and Commerce a pup, because he assumed that too much Training Act 1979, :proV'ided that ,the Minis­ of the cake was going to education. In ,that t~r c<;>uld exempt .a!l applicant for appren­ assumption, of course, was the suggestion tJce~hip from provisiOns of the Act relating that education was doing nicely. Of course, ~o minimum sta_ndard of education for entry some few months later, when all the reports mto an apl?rentlceship w~ere, in the opinion of the Select Committee have come home of the Mim5ter, spemal ciroumstances existed to roost, we find that a large amount of to justify such exemption. money would be needed in the future to Mr. Miller: A very important clause. implement these much-needed recommenda­ tions. Mr. CAMPBELL: Yes. No discretionary power was conferred in the Industry and We have been told that programmes for Commerce Ttraining Act and many young ,isolated chi,ldren aTe way behind the mark persons who do not quite meet academic and that there needs to be a large increase requirements for entry into an apprentice­ in per capita expenditure on them. If there ship, but who would otherwise make excel­ is going to be any chance whatsoever of lent. apprentice~, are deprived. of the oppor­ the positive recommendations in the report tumty to enter mto an apprenticeship. (which I believe has been very well received in the community) being implemented, I . Th.e appli~~nt is usually coHectly motivated m hiS arnb11lion to serve an apprenticeship believe that the Government must rethink which will result in his achiev,ing tradesman's its funding of education. status. I wish to look now at post-secondary The employer is also aware of ,the appli­ education. There is a continuing demand for cant's acad~mic standard and fully supports post-secondary education. Many students, the exemptiOn, as he considers motivation after a period in the work-force, are return­ dedication and application wiH enable th~ ing to gain post-secondary qualifications. applicant to cope ~vith the practical and There has been an uneven development of technical responsibilities of the trade. post-secondary education institutions through­ Research by the Industry and Commerce out the State as a result, of course, of the Training Commission shows ,that in most Government's failure again to supply facili­ cases applicants exempted from education ties and to meet the growing demands of requirements under the Apprenticeship Act the community in this field. There is a need successfully completed the practicaJ and tech­ for existing institutions to be co-ordinated nical respon~ibilities associated with the trade to provide greater oportunities for people in calling. areas of the State where opportunities are The proposed amendment to the Industry not available. and Commerce Training Act 1979 adding a The Select Committee reported that the new subsection 3 of section 9 will restore "participation rate in all sectors of post­ the arrangement applying under the repea:led secondary education of people in Queensland Apprenticeship Act. lags behind that for Australia as a whole", The further amendments contained in the and I believe that the State Education Depart­ Bill merely correct drafting errors and minor ment must be cognisant of that fact. The defects. committee stressed that administrative mach­ Debate, on motion of Mr. Yewdale, inery should be drastically revised to ensure adjourned. greater co-ordination between universities, colleges of advanced education and technical and further education institutions so that REPORTS OF THE SELECT COMt\1ITTEE there would be less duplication of the educa­ ON EDUCATION tional services offered and a wider extension RESUMPTION OF DEBATE of services to cope with the existing demands. Debate 'resumed from 18 March (see One of the proposaJs of the Select Com­ p. 2778) on Mr. Ahern's motion- mittee concerns the establishment of a "That the House takes note of the Ministry for :Post-secondary Education, seven reports of the Select Committee on separate from the present Education portfolio, Education in Queensland which were thus giving the present 'rl1inister more time Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2869 to devote his energies to the pre-school, I wish to make one comment about primary and secondary education system. S.T.O.J>. and C.A.R.E. In the .first part This consideration seems, on the surface, to of my speech in this debate on Tuesday be very worth while. But I cannot support last, I said that it is abhorrent to me that it, for a variety of reasons. First of all, it minorities can press •their views upon the would create one more extra level of bureau­ community by becoming very vocal pressure cracy. Government members often see groups. Putting forward an opinion that is themselves as the paragons of private enter­ not representative of that held by most ~n prise and do not believe that we need an the community can be to ·the detriment of increased bureaucracy. Of course, they tend vie~s held by the community at large. J to equate that with democratic socialist bel_~e:ve that the representatives of minority­ parties. I believe that increasing the numbers opmlon groups such as S.T.O.J>. and of public servants on proposed supportive C.A;.R.E. re?eive, as do all minority groups, advisory committees and councils would a d1sproportwnate amount of publicity which result in the making of politica.! appointments. is so obligingly given to them not only by the media but also by members of I believe that the academic staff would Parliament. I believe that if everybody feel thil't this could place a restriction on accepted and adopted this view and removed their autonomy, because university campuses the publicity that '!his "one percenter mob" have traditionally been arenas for the dis­ get, minority groups such as S.T.O.P. and semination and expre&sion of ideas and C.A.R.E. would fade awav into well-deserved thought. I think that some of the best insignificance. " brains in our society and some of the best suggestions have come from there. One has I also .wish •to comment on the teacher to be careful. If one sets up a bureaucracy, discipline guide-lines in the Final Report. it can u.!timately lead to some degree of I am well aware that there is a need censorship or political control over these to ensure •the moral and professional quality freedoms, and I believe that that would of teachers. I have no opposition at all be unthinkable. to control over the rare instances of mis­ conduct. The Final Report suggests that Mr. Ahern: There is already a Board of the disciplinary powers that a principal has Advanced Education with quite a considerable over his teachers be strengthened by extend­ number of public servants in its employ. ing his arbitrary powers to suspending a teacher from duties for two days. A principal Mr. FOURAS: I thank the honourable can also ask the regional director to extend member for his comment. If there were a that suspension to five days or the Director­ separate ministry, I believe that there would General of Education to suspend indefinitely be a possibility that that Minister would the teacher concerned. perhaps be more under the political control I do not agree with giving greater powers of the Treasurer and, worse still, of the to principals, as on the odd occasion they Premier, in the decisions that were taken. could lead to arbitrarv abuse. I also draw So I would be concerned if there were a to the attention of · honourable members splitting of the Education ministry. the position of a teacher who returned to I now wish to ta.lk briefly about the recom­ face a class after a period of suspension for mendations concerning the funding of tertiary a misdemeanour. His authority in the class­ education. Of course, it was recommended room would be damaged to such a degree that tertiary education be funded through that his position would become untenable the State Government, not directly to tertiary and h .would be vcrv difficult for him to institutions. regain the authority and professionalism he would need. Mr. Ahern: That is what the Constitution says. I now wish to comment on the representa­ tion on advisory boards and committees Mr. FOURAS: Whatever the Constitution by parent and community group interests. On says, l find that proposition unacceptable. the surface that seems to be a very good idea, but how is appropriate representation Such a scheme would make the proposed to be determined? Representatives of certain Minister for Post-secondary Education sub­ groups will reflect the views of those who ject to the Treasurer. If funds were not appoint them. I believe that in many .ways available to maintain primary and secondary those who •would come to prominence as education because of demands made bv delegates of parental and community groups them, possibly the Treasurer could take away would be likely to have much more con­ some of the allocation to tertiary ins'iitutions. servative views than those generally held If Cabinet is allowed to hold the purse in the communitv. Because of that, and strings on tertiary education, once again that because of the political nature of the appoint­ could be the basis of a very effective political ment, there would not be true representation control. Those involved in tertiary educa­ of parent and community groups. tion see that as threatening their autonomy. They are concerned about it, and I believe Notwithstanding areas in which the com­ they have every reason to be concerned. If mittee's report has shown the Government's the academic freedom of tertiary education past performance to be seriously deficient, is restricted by punitive political measures, once again we are faced with the problem that is unacceptable. of financing future improvements. The 2870 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

improbability of this Government's willing­ Mr. Hansen: As soon as you stop learn­ ness rto provide funding for existing education ing, you're dead. needs makes it almost certain that it will continue to procrastinate with the imple­ Mr. INNES: Indeed, and so is civilisa­ mentation of the Select Committee's recom­ tion. mendations. I would cavil, with respect, at a statement Again ·l would like rto congratulate the by my colleague-on this occasion I think I Select Commit·tee on its findings. [ con­ rightly use the term-the Minister for Abor­ gratulate it on not shelving issues that 'iginal and Island Affairs. I do not share were perhaps seen to be dangerous or a his opinion that society is going to the little difficult. Overall, it has done a pack or that there are signs that our society very good job. In putting the intere~ts of is about to disintegrate. At my younger age, the students in our school system and the I find that as I get older I have to resist demands of the community at large in the in myself a tendency to conclude on occa­ proper perspective of utmost priority, the sions that the world is not the same happy Select Committee was ·able .to provide a place it was when I was younger. It is thorough and well~balanced resume of the my belief and observation that it is part entire education system in Queensland, and of the ageing process that causes a person it is rto its credit that it has proved on the to believe that society is going to the pack whole to be a sensible and balanced investiga­ or the mora:ls of young people are degenerat­ tion. ing. In fact, I now attempt to prevent my own ·children doing things that I quite Mr. INNES (Sherwood) (5.35 p.m.): I happly and blithely did, despite the opposi­ do not want to take up the time of the tion of my own parents, at their age. So House for too l.ong. I am quite happy to when we look at this subject we must be abide by a 20-minute period of speaking. conscious of the subjectivity with which one First I commend the Select Committee. It should approach the whole issue. has done an admirable job. Everybody who has some objectivity has an admiration for There has been one surprise to me. I had the work done by the member for Lands­ left the early part of my children's education borough (Mr. Ahern) and his committee. to just looking at the results and allowing my wife to go to the meetings of the parents The inquiry started in an eJCceptionally and citizens' association. One of the conse­ adverse climate-one that was inflamed by quences of my fairly brief period in Parlia­ the extreme views of opponents from very ment is .that I have had to get to know some­ polarised and divergent positions. One thing about the education process, and I would have thought it unlikely that a com­ have been impressed-totally impressed-by mittee of this House could arrive at a 99 per cent of what I have seen. I cannot report and recommendations that would recall that at the age of 8 or 9 years J achieve the respect of people from all sides had to resort to textbooks on geography and of the political fence and from all sides of diplomacy to find out the raw materials the community-from, shall we say, those in various African countries. I think that with liberal views as opposed to the more came about four or five years later in my conservative attitudes to education. The school career. I find that my own children only people left wanting, shall we say, are are occupied with that at the moment. They the minority who remain strongly committed know more, they know it earlier, they are to some very localised, very restricted, pre­ more extrovert, they are more articulate, occupation with a component of education. and they hold views more readily. I see A famous 20th Century philosopher said nothing wrong with that. That is the strength that teachers are, more than any other class, of our form of civilisation as compared with the guardians of civilisation; that they should more totalitarian forms. be intimately aware of what civilisation is I turn now to specific aspects of the and desirous of imparting a civilised attitude report, and I wish to deal for a short time to their pupils. Education has to involve with a couple of them that have not, as I something more than the three Rs. I recall, been dealt with so far. would not want my children to be taught First, there is the question of class sizes. by teachers who had anything as restrict•ive I believe that important recommendations are as the three Rs in contemplation. They made in regard to class sizes. They certainly have to be taught reading, writing and arith­ are important in their effect on the Treasury, metic, of course, but one woukl hope that because the Ahern committee has recom­ they are taught far more than that; that mended ideal class sizes of 25 for Grades they are taught the history of our civilisation, 1 and 2 and the later grades and 30 for that they are taught the range of disciplines the interim grades. Personally, I agree with that are availaJble to modern man and that that, both on observation and on a subjective they are left with a self-generating thirst basis. for knowledge and ability to acquire know­ The committee referred to study that had ledge which would stand them in good stead been done, and I think it referred also to through the whole of their adult life, because the fact that many studies have diverged learning does not stop when people leave as to the relationship between class sizes and school. In fact, for many it only starts the end product. There is no doubt that the and achieves ·impetus when they get out into capacity and quality of the teachers probably the adult world. is the dominant determinative of the quality Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2871

of teaching and the ability of the child to what their enrolments will be. To atta>in absorb knowledge. But assuming an equality class sizes of 30 or 35, the education system of teaching performance, the study referred needs more teachers and more class-rooms. to in the report by Glass, which reviewed I am sure that all consumers of education earlier works-and I think it was suggested would like to minimise the occurrence of that over 900,000 pupils were covered by composite dasses throughout our education the various surveys-showed that there was system. Not that compo·site classes should a relationship between class size and perform­ necessarily be undesirable. It is probably ance. I should have thought that it stood only in schools that people are regimented to reason that more personalised attention according to age. In every other &pectrum would have led to better performance, either of life, people are put together according to from the component of the total time that common ·interes·t, common purpose in life or the teacher spent with each person sorting common ability. out his or her particular problem or just in the sense that the smaller the class the Mr. Shaw: Composite classes of wide age more readily pupils feel that the teacher's groups and large numbers are not desirable. eye is upon them. Everybody who has had anything to do with the control of other Mr. INNES: Composite classes based human beings knows that the larger the purely on age groups are not sensible. How­ group of people the more difficult it is to ever, ,in terms of ability, they are praba:bly instil or demand standards of behaviour. quite sensible. If problems occur in a class, they inevitably There are probably more occasions in occur in the back row. The performance in .both primary and secondary schools on which cinemas and the performance in class-rooms is groups could be put together according to very much parallel. That is because at the back interests, such as in art and music, where of the room a person feels very much out .performance has no real beal"ing. Per­ of sight and to some extent out of mind. formance is not measured for future pur­ So quite clearly, from the point of view of poses. discipline-but not purely for the sake of The arts and other extracurricular activ­ regimentation and discipline-if pupils think ities, such as those involving environmental that they are individually under the eye of field studies, did not receive their just deserts. the teacher, they are more likely to devote They were rightly included, albeit briefly, their attention to what they are being taught. in the final report. The Glass study showed that very little I know from experience gained ·in my elec­ distinction could be shown between, say, 30 torate that familiarity with the arts, includ­ and 25, or even as low as 20, but there was ing music, and access to the teaching of a measurable difference in the performance music are keenly sought by parents with of pupils over the spectrum of education as children who are fortunate enough to attend the class size dropped from 30 to 20 for schools -that have music teachers or an each teacher. When the class drops below 20, active music programme. the curve goes up dramatically. The inter• ference that is drawn, and I think it can Access to the arts is access to our civilisa­ be supported on just seeing children in the tion. The arts are the essence of our civilisa­ class and their response, is that smaller class tion. The ancient Egyptians are dead and sizes do assist more children and particularly buried but the flowering of their arts can assist children with problems. The Select still b~ seen in the pyramids. Most oivilisa­ Committee has found a balance between what t·ions are remembered for their artistic crea­ is ideal and what is practicable. tions. If we cannot, with the richest civilisa­ tion on earth which we enjoy in the 20th I assume .that nobody would suggest thfl't Century, devote part of our education pro­ this year all claso;es in Queensland could be cesses to 1eaching our chHdren about the converted to the recommended &izes. Such a finest flower•ings of our intellectual life and step would require a building programme our ability, we have come to a very sorry and a level of funding that cannot be coun­ pass. Perhaps that materialism which my tenanced. Any member of Parliament who colleague the Minister for Aboriginal and knows the reaction of parents to the prob­ Island Affairs adverts to as a decline has lem of class sizes would agree that classes set in, because certainly our education sys­ of 30 for ordinary students and 25 for tem should set store on imparting to the younger children, those undertaking com­ young that tradit

I find it disturbing to hear instances of programme, 50 per cent in free time and shortfalls in trained people in the community 50 per cent in school-time, under which the and shortfalls in the trades. I am told young people who want to do so prepare there is a real shortfall of some 1,400 or themselves specially for the maths component 1 500 diesel mechanics who will be necessary they will require for their trade. It seems f~r our great raw-material expansion in the to be a sorry pass that we have young 1980s. There is an abundance of young people who want to do maths to a level to people who wish to be trained and qualified allow them to become tradesmen but they in trades. Private enterprise and the Govern­ have to go outside the school system to ment combined are not training all the achieve it. Something is going very far people who want to become tradesmen, and wrong, and I would strongly urge that the they are not training all the people who education system, whether it be by the device will be necessary for the development that of technical high schools or whatever, and we face. by the use of people who know what the We are told that we can expect to face trades want rather than schoolteachers who a sponsored migration programme of hund­ do not know what the trade wants, devise reds even thousands, of trained overseas curricula and programmes to allow young trad~smen. That seems to me to be unthink­ people who want to become tradesmen to able. If there is to be a toss-up, I would gain an apprenticeship. prefer to see young men trained for three or four years in a trades school with a I also strongly urge that the school system year's internship, to use a parallel "':ord in take up the slack, where we find that private medicine when they could go out virtually enterprise and Government combined cannot trained to an employer who has avoided provide the necessary apprenticeships, to the problems of the waste structure which prepare the trained tradesmen who we know we are told deters them from taking on will be needed, and can project now will apprentices, even though they are financed be needed, in the 1980s for our necessary by the Government. It would be better development. It is a criminal waste of the to train a diesel mechanic the country will talents of our young people to contemplate need rather than train yet more arts graduates importing skilled migrants when we have with which this country is already over thousands of young Queenslanders who want endowed. If we are looking at priorities, the to be tradesmen. priorities should be in favour of the maa who wants to go into productive life and Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (5.57 p.m.): will go into productive life. Without trades­ I join with other members of the Assembly men, we will not have the wheels and who have commended the committee for the cogs to keep up our civiliation and our the tremendous work it has done, and the standard of living. results of that work, because, having con­ I strongly advocate that the Government sidered the seven reports, and certainly stud­ must dovetail the schooling system to recog­ ied in detail the last report, I say that it nise where there will be shortfalls and to is quite obvious that its task was an onerous alter the system to cater for shortfalls. There one. But its members must be pleased with could be no better situation than to train the results. They must be pleased indeed the young people who want to be apprentices with the public acceptance of many parts and who, we know, will find employment in of the report, or, if not acceptance, certainly the 1980s but, because of other problems, the interest that has been created in educa­ cannot get apprenticeships. tion because of this in-depth report. I understand that an interesting situation exists in Mt. Isa. The company tries to I have listened very carefully to commun­ take all of its apprentices from the town. ity remarks about the recommendations that It employs over 130 or 140 new apprentices have been made. One group said that they each year. However, because of the arrange­ were very progressive. One person said that ment of subjects in schools, all of those who they were controversial. Another person want to learn trades and have the mental said that they were not unexpected. I could equipment to become tradesmen cannot get go on and list a dozen different comments the basic qualifications. such as "positive", "progressive" and, as one Many settled for social maths, which is person said about some of the remarks on about 60 per cent useful fo·r their trade sex education, ''courageous". and 40 per cent not useful. They are not Mr. Moore: Did you read that part? good enough to do the more academic maths subject which is neX!t in line. It is about Mr. WRIGHT: Yes. 40 per cent useful for their trade and 60 per cent theoretical and a;bstract maths which Mr. Moore: Homosexuality and all that they could not master. tripe being taught to kids. They leave school but cannot become Mr. WRIGHT: Just a minute. I am not apprentice electricians because they do not suggesting that these are views held by every­ have the necessary ability in maths, which body; I am just referring to the different is the ~ault of the education system and not remarks that have been made. I will be their own lack of ability. So Mount Isa pleased to hear the honourable member for Mines Ltd., with a far-sighted and accom­ Windsor speak on the aspect of homosexu­ modating school system, has devised a special ality at a later date if it is dear to his heart. Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2873

Mr. Moore: I am looking at you. I am ought to be allowed to do it. I do not just wondering about that limp hand of yours. want to see :the sugges,tion of a Government member followed through, whereby they Mr. WRIGHT: Your name's not "Justice" is it? No! · would be put in some small class. The concept of allowing persons to retrain them­ Getting back to where I was before I was selves by going back to study is an ideal rudely interrupted by the honourable member one. If we had a community college con­ for Windsor-while I have accepted and cept, which I know has not been fully expected many of the comments that have supported in the report, there would be been made, I was rather surprised by some an opportunity for those persons who did of the attitudes expressed by some; Govern­ not take full advantage of their opportunities ment members in the debate. I was certainly at secondary school to return and continue surprised at the challenge that was made their studies. There would also be a poss­ by a senior member of the Liberal Party, !bility of transferring in courses, but that in fact the Minister for Aboriginal and IS another aspect. Island Affairs, to the concept of pre-school I listened with amazement to the com­ education. I certainly hope that his views ments of Government members who gave are not held by the majority of Government acceptance to the cut-backs in the financin"" members. I would not like to see us go of education. I am disgusted that members of back to some laissez-faire approach of some this J>arliame!lt can stand up and say that kindergarten system under which those who they are qmte happy about cut.,backs in could affmd to go along, went, and those education expenditure. The member for who could not just missed out. Mourilyan did not help herself very much [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] here when she said that she believed it was reasonable. In my mind, it is totally Mr. WRIGHT: Prior to the dinner recess unreasonable. Because of her comments I had made some comments about the I think that 1the people in her electoral~ attitudes expressed by some Government will hold her in question at the next election. members towards pre-school education. I Those comments are not affecting her was making the point that it is beyond individually; they ,are affecthng hundreds-in doubt that pre-school education is vitally fact thousands-of young people throughout important and is now a prerequisite 1o the this State. normal school programme. A number of studies have been carried out in this area. 'I noted also her support for a reduction Teachers of Grades 1, 2 and 3 say that in the supportive staff-teacher aides, students who come into their classes after groundsmen, etc. It is amazing that a having had that initial training in pre-school, person who holds herself up to be progressive have a marked advantage over those who should be saying that it is all right to cut haven':t. :It was rather surprising to hear back the number of ,teacher aides. r expect the Minister for Aboriginal and Island Affairs National Party and Liberal Party members express some concern about the suggestions to support their Government in some of in the report about pre-school education. these areas, but not to back regressive, backward and negative proposals or policies :I note in the summary of recommendations as they have done here. that the commiHee said that pre-school a1tendance should not be made compulsory. I have to accept that it is impossible for We have to be very careful about com­ any Government to suddenly implement pulsion, not because of a lack of desirebility everything contained in this report. How­ of the course, but because the real problem ever, I would ask that a clear timetable here is trying to meet the demand. Because be established by the Government, through we have not got the pre-schools, young the Education Department, of :when the people all over the State are missing out on numerous recommendations can be imple­ pre-school education. :I hope that this mented. ·I accept that it cannot ,be done comment in the report is cr10t ,an out for the overnight, but we want to see some action. Government; that the Government wi11 It has taken two years for this committee to not say, "We don't ha·ve to try to build study, investig,ate, interview and report on pre-schools now because the committee said the various aspects of education in Queens· pre-school education should not be made land. I hope that the repoct is not going compulsory." Let us try to get to the to be shelved, but that is the danger. If situation where the vas:t majority-in fact one thinks back to the Select Committee on 100 per cent--of our children have the Punishment of Crimes of Violence in Queens­ choice of going to pre-school. I hope that land-- eventually it does become part and parcel of the school programme. Mr. Davis: r:I'hat is right. Another aspect that was questioned con­ cerned the mature-age student returning to Mr. WRIGHT: The member for Brisbane the normal class-room for secondary school Central was on that committee. We have studies. Whilst it may be difficult for a yet to see many of those recommendations person of 30 or 40 years of age to go back even considered. There has :been at least into .a class where there are young people some support for a number of recommenda­ of 16; 17 or 18 years of age, surely if tions that .were made but, in the main, :the mature-age students want to do this they report seems to have been put aside. 2874 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

Mr. Ahern: That is not so. A lot of teachers taught one class in a period of four amendments were included in the Criminal months. It -is no wonder that some children Code. suffer. Under our system there are casualties. Mr. WRIGHT: Yes, but that 1ook some­ Sometimes children go into the wrong course thing like 2:i- years. 1! was involved in the areas. They may be pressed into a course shadow Justice portfolio at that time, and because their brothers or sisters before them I recall that it was about 2t years before studied certain subjects, and they had to take those matters rwere brought forward. Some those subjects because of the cost of books. of ·the recommendations about changes in One could come up with myraid reasons, children's services took about three years. but the fact is that there are casualties Surely the honoumble member for Lands­ in our education system. Something has to borough rwould not •want to wait three years be done about that. to see implemented many of the recom­ I suggest some type of review mechanism mendations here that will cost nothing. That should be built into the education system, is where I take 1he 1Premier to task. He say, at two phases within a child's normal talks about a cost of millions of dollars school career. It could well be that to implement many of the recommendation~. at the Grade 5 or 6 area educating l do not think that is fair. Perhaps he 1s the child should be brought to a stop trying to find an out for himself and for so that a three-month review could his Government. Surely the honourable be undertaken. That time could be used member for Landsborough would want to to go back over the child's education to see implemented as many of ·these recom­ find out in what respects he was failing. I mendations as possible. am told by the member for Wynnum that There are problems. We must have similar sugestions were put to the Select community co-operation. Now that the Committee. Those persons apparently seek report is before us the next step is to gain a need for review-a need to stop for a that community co-operation. There are moment and recheck what is being done. numerous recommendations, such as the one Sometimes a child will continue through for school-based courses. Local employers because of an ability he has to cope in should be involved in syllabus preparation. certain areas; he goes on and on, but never That is just one aspect. There are numerous has the necessary skills to finally achieve his areas where the community ought to be full capacity. I suggest that that will get involved. I would like to see the Government worse, so that the number o.f casualties will start to engender community interest so increase drastically in the next few years. that something can be done to hasten the :Today I attended a dinner where a Mr. implementation of these recommendations. Brian Willersdorf made the point that within In the short time I have allotted myself a very short time-three or four years- I will not have time to canvass all the 15 per cent of today's schoolchildren will aspects which I would like to, so I will get not get jobs. He said that 85 per cent to a couple of vital points. As I said at of ·children at school now will have to take the very outset, I commend the members jobs below their qualifications. I suggest for their initiative and the way in which that they will be casualties of the education they undertook this task, but I question system. I note that the report says nothing whether solubions to the real problems have about catering for that aspect. Apart from been obtained. As I have travelled around the reference to computer training there is the State, especially visiting schools, I have nothing in the report to really come to grips noticed that one of the problems of the with the technological changes that we are education system is the number of casualities encountering at the present moment. in schools. That is the only way I can So I say that the study by this committee describe them. They are in fact casualties and this Parliament into education is not -the 15 to 20 per cent of students, and finished. Because of the need for a timeta:ble sometimes even a higher percentage, who of implementation it has really only just have not been able to achieve their full begun. It has just begun because of the capacity. need to review some of the recommendations in terms of application and then, as I have I think back to my own education and said, to go further than that and look at wonder ab

It is not necessary for many students brought down some rather progressive recom­ to go to Grade 12. Perhaps they should mendations-and I commend it for them­ be streamed into technical fields well before about the need to involve the parents, the that is now being done. It concerns me greatly teachers and the students .before really heavy that we are saying to young people, "You discipJ.inary action is taken, I am not quite can't get anywhere unless you have a sure that having it in the regulations will Grade 10 qualification and unless you be the solution. We ha;·e to make an have gone on to Senior." In years gone example of some students. We have to get by, a person went into the teaching profes­ tough. I know tha1 it takes away the rights sion hav,ing a Grade 8 education. Then he of a few, but I am concerned about ·the had to have Scholarship. Then he had to Jack of discipline in State schools at the have Junior. Then he had to have Senior. moment. I have had discussions in the last Then he had to have an A.Ed.-an Associate three months with parents who are con­ in Educll!tion; six units at the university. cerned and express the view that it is bet1er Then he had 1o have a primary degree. to send students to private schools for dis­ Then he had to have a secondary degree. cipline alone. It is not because of the quality So it has gone on. of teaching; State schools can match them I question that the teachers of today are on the quality of teaching. so much better than those of ye&teryear, Mr. Underwood: Private schools send the even though they have all these extra qualifi­ trouble-makers down the road to the State cations. I have had the chance to see some school. of the courses that our teachers are encour­ aged to undertake while they are out doing Mr. WRIGHT: That could well be so. practical teaching, and I am not convinced However, there is a problem vvith discip­ that they are of any great advantage. I see line and we need to get tough. 1 would like the real advantage as being in the class­ to see .the Education Department accept the room, learning from experienced teachers. disciplinary regulations proposed by the com­ Because I have also undertaken studies, I mittee and implement them. It is no good understand that there ·is a need to improve the pr.incipals having the power unless they one's own qualifications. However, from the are able to use it. point of view of the students, it is possible­ I make the final point that I am pleased it is happening now-that some students are the report is finished and I am pleased that encouraged to become over-qualified. With members will have a continuing opportunity the changes in-in fact, the removal of­ to debate the recommendations. However, I employment opportuni·ties, there will be tens ask again that the committee press the of thousands of young people who are over­ Government-and especially the Premier, qualified. What Br·ian Willersdorf said today because he seems to hav·e the most say-to will be true: 85 per cent of our young people have a clear timetable for the implementa­ will take jobs well below the qualifications tion of ·these recommendations. they have. This is serious. I do not know the answer to the problem, but I suggest that Mr. SCASSOLA (Mt. Gravatt) (7.30 p.m.): this ·is a maNer for further studv. There T join with those who preceded me in this should be a review system by means· of which debate in commending the Select Committee a chi.Jd can undertake a course in Grade 9, on its work. The committee, as has been say, and be able to opt out in Grade 10 said, engaged in its task over a period of and still not lose the full 12 months. There some two years. The quality of the reports is a need for further review. that came out of the committee's deliber­ There ·is a need also to consider some of ations brings credit not only on the members the problems in our schools. I raise this of the committee but also on this Parlia­ matter in the last minute that I have avail­ ment, and I hope that, as a result of the able to me. I speak specifically of discipline. significant success of this Select Committee, I said to the member for Landsborough we will see many more such committees today that is was rather good to be depicted in the years to come. in a cartoon. As a passing point, I thought I direct my attention and the attention of that 1hat car·toon of the member for Lands­ the House this evening to one of the recom­ borough in today's paper was rather fitting. mendations that the committee made, that is, the recommendation to the effect that Mr. W. D. Hewitt: It shows that you have "the recommendation of the Advisory Coun­ arrived. cil for Special Education 'that the Minister for Education seek amendment to the Mr. WRIGHT: Yes. I recall that aHer Education Act 1964-1974 whereby the pro­ my first speech in this Padiament 11 years vision of education for handicapped children ago I, too, was the subject of a cartoon. I up to 18 years of age is the statutory think that made history, because no other responsibility of the Minister' be supported". member had been depicted in a cartoon The report of the Advisory Council for after his first speech. Special Education is one of the most sig­ At that time I made the point that there nificant documents on the subject of special ought to be a system of discipline under education to be published in this State for which, when a student reached nine points, more than a generation. It contains some he was out. There is a need to toughen up 20 separate recommendations, some of which in the schools. Whilst the committee has are fundamental and of vital importance to 2876 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

the future of handicapped children in this in fact, discriminating against the basic State. The first of those 20 recommendations, rights of a fairly large section of the which is the one to which the Select Com­ community." mittee referred, is of paramount importance, For 118 years the education of children in because it acknowledges that every child this State has been recognised as a function in this State is entitled to the basic human of the Government. Under the Education right of a free and compulsory education Acts education is compulsory for all except at Government expense. those for whom a "reasonable excuse" exists. The principal recommendation of the Moreover, the community has accepted that advisory council, which is supported by the there is a right of choice in education, a Select Committee, raises two very basic and choice between a Government-funded and fundamental questions. The first question operated school system on the one hand and is: who are in fact the handicapped? The a private school system on the other, each of second is: are the handicapped really dif­ which has the same broad educational pro­ ferent? grammes and goals set by the Department The handicapped are those who in some of Education. That freedom of choice way do not measure up to what society extends from early childhood education defines as normal, either physically, mentally, through to secondary education. or behaviourally. The standard of normality, In contrast, the handicapped child has no however, is not absolute. It varies from such choice. Indeed, he has no right ~o any society to society; indeed, it varies from education at all. Since 1952, when it was individual to individual. decreed in this State that only educable As to the second question-the handi­ children be catered for in opportunity schools capped child is, first and foremost, a human -to quote the words of a report-all handi­ being. He experiences elation and disappoint­ capped children save those who were regarded ment, joy and sorrow. Like others, he as being mildly mentally retarded have been responds to love and affection and encour­ denied entry to the State school system. agement, and he suffers and is crushed by There are, of course, exceptions to that. oppression and rejection. He enjoys health Thev relate to children who basically are sen­ and suffers sickness. He requires food and sorially handicapped. In those circumstances, clothing, shelter and medical care, and he parents of mentally retarded children could requires education. He is, then, an ordinary do little other than seek assistance from child who, because of some disability, voluntary organisations that were formed at requires special provision. about that time in an attempt to fill the For centuries the handicapped have been, vacuum and individually catered by and and still are, treated as different. They large for specific categories of handicap. have been incarcerated in institutions, in The current position is that handicapped some cases with the mentally ill, where children, other than those who are deaf, they have languished until a premature death. or blind, have no right to education, let For centuries no attempt was made to under­ alone any State education. If a child happens stand their problems or their difficulties or to fall into a recognised category of handicap to ensure their physical or mental develop­ that is catered for by a voluntary organis­ ment, and their needs-such basic needs as ation, he may have the opportunity to food and clothing, shelter and comfort­ attend a school conducted by that organ­ were left to charity and to the initiatives isation. If, on the other hand, he does of the few. For centuries they have carried not fall into one of those categories, he labels which, to say the least, are inhuman. simply has no opportunity to receive any The Fifth Principle of the Declaration of kind of education, whether or not it is pro­ the Rights of the Child, which was adopted vided by the State. But in either case the unanimously in 1959-and I remind the handicapped child has no right to seek entry House of it-says that the child who is to any such school of an organisation or any physically, mentally or socially handicapped Government school. shall be given the special treatment, educa­ tion and care required by his particular The Advisory Council for Special Educa­ condition. The proposition contained in the tion in its repol't examined the role of volun­ first recommendation of the Advisory Council tary organisations in the provision of educa­ for Special Education supports that pro­ tional services to handicapped children. It position. It has also been supported by a ought to be said that for a very long time number of inquiries and commissions in this those voluntary organisations provided a country in the last decade. I cite merely most valuable contribution to the welfare of as an example part of the findings of the handicapped people and, in particular, handi­ Senate Standing Committee on Health and capped children. They provided a service at Welfare, which, in its report published in a time when there was literally nothing else. 1971 on the mentally and physically handi­ Having said that, I nevertheless concur with capped in Australia, said- the view expressed by the Advisory Council "The Committee supports the principles for Special Education, as follows-- that education is the right of every child "While recognising the valuable contrib­ and that education should be free and ution that such groups have made and compulsory. Those States which are not are making in this area, Council does not providing free education to a particular suppo,rt the view that an evolutionary section of the handicapped population are, development of the type that has taken Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2877

place over the last two decades should be iJ?-stitutions cond~cted by voluntary organisa­ perpetuated in its present form into the tions have a feelmg of subservience and vul­ foreseeable future." nerability and that, in part, this feeling arises The needs of the handicapped child and out of the attitude prevalent in some volun­ the raised expectations of peopfe connected tary organisations that children are not with the handicapped child make it impera­ admitted as of right but by the grace of the tive that standards of education are set and executive committee. that the handicapped child has a legislative Those feelings are reinforced by the rules right to an education funded by the State. of som~ of those voluntary groups, which As the chairman of the Select Committee rules, Ill some cases at least, whether said in his speech the other day- they are adhered to or not, constitute a "We can no longer look in the rear- violation of the principles of fair play. For vision mirror." example, one finds that in some cases the children have to be re-enrolled annually. This It is time that we looked forward and looked means that parents do not simply enrol when ahead. The revelation in the advisory the child is first admitted 1to the establish­ council's report that more than half the ment. There is a requirement that the number of teachers employed by voluntary child be re-enrolled annually. organisations have no specialist teaching preparation is a matter of grave concern. The admission of a child to the establish­ Research over a number of years has clearly ment is conditional upon the payment of shown that the effective education of the fees, conditional upon the child's parents handicapped more than any other group is being admitted to the membership of the dependent on highly skilled teachers who relev.ant association, and conditional upon design and tailor programmes for individuals, contmued membership of that association. which programmes are applied by means of Moreover, the continued membership of a systematic modern teaching techniques and parent in the relevant association is con­ methods, and close observation and reporting ditional upon the parent'~ demonstrating of individual progress. Unless children have "loyalty", whatever 'that might mean. the benefit of such skills and techniques, The rule which makes people feel very they are severely and permanently disad­ vulnerable and totally subservient is the vantaged. The community insists that teachers rule which enables the management com­ of all normal children have appropriate mittee to refuse admission or to exclude any skills and qualifications to enable them to person already admitted at any time without dE5charge their duties. The community giving any reason whatsoever. The point should demand no less from those teaching that ought to be made is that in many the handicapped. instances the particular association is the The Advisory Council for Special Educa­ only one of its kind offering ,the relevant tion makes the observation that "with the service in

attitude of some people, and their resistance is required is a re-examination of the priori­ to change, leads one to believe that in ties so tha:t preference is given in the first the minds of some the continuation of {he instance to those with the greatest need. status quo is of a higher priority than the welfare of the children whom the associations I refer honourable members to one other were formed to serve. matter, and that is the question of an at-risk register. In its Third Report the Select The Advisory Council on Special Educa­ Committee referred to the need for eal'ly tion adverted to the question of account­ intenention in terms of .Jiteracy. Early inter­ ability in education for handicapped people vention has long been recognised as being and I concur totally ·with the views expressed of very great value. In particular, it is of in that document. The voluntarv associa­ enormous value in the development of handi­ tions receive substantial contributions from capped children. The committee said in its the Government towards their programmes. Third Report that there was a need to At the moment there .is little or no account­ identify at-risk children before they passed ability for the expenditure of that money. critical points in the education stream and, Equally, there is no accountability for the coupled with that, there was a very real programmes that are conducted. I suggest need for a series of early intervention pro­ it is not unreasonable that organisations grammes. With all of that I totally agree. account for the moneys received from gov­ ernment. Equally, it is not unreasonable to In their submission to the committee the suggest that standards ought to be set for special school principals suggested that an the programmes that children, whether they appropriate at-risk register should be estab­ be handicapped or other,wise, undertake. lished on a national level with access to indi­ vidual State departments. It seemed to me The Advisory Council on Special Education that they were referring to an at-risk register adverted to the lack of support facilities that would be compiled at the point of birth. available to handicapped children. In its Dr. William McBride of Foundation 41 advo­ reports, the Select Committee referred to the cated in 1977 the establishment of a national need for early intervention programmes. The register to record babies' birth defects. In provision of early intervention programmes, the context of the handicapped, the record­ including support services to handicapped ing of known defects at birth with the sub­ children, is absolutely cmcial to progress and sequent availability of information to educa­ development. After all, many of those child­ tion and medical authorities would be of ren are unable to communicate, and adequate enormous benefit to those charged with the communication is vital to any sort of progress teaching and development generally of those at all. The Advisory Council on Special people. I believe it would certainly save an Education made it quite clear that, in its enormous amount of time; it would assist Yiew, support facilities for handicapped child­ those who have to frame programmes and it ren were inadequate. Clearly, those support would lead to a much better future for handi­ facilities, especially speech therapy services, capped children. The argument against that are unco-ordinnted and fragmented; they are proposition is that an at-risk register would label children. I suggest that is no argument simply inadequate. as handicapped children are already labelled The problem is twofold. In the first place, for life. The community labels Down's syn­ there is clearly an insufficient number of drome children as mongoloid, cerebral palsy speech therapists, or indeed other therapists, children as spastic and mentally retarded in the State education system and in the children generally as subnormal. Moreover, programmes conducted by voluntary organisa­ the mere fact that handicapped children have tions. It is said that the ceilings that are no right to enter educational institutions con­ imposed preclude the appointment of a great ducted bv the State is in itself a stamp or number of therapists in the State school a label. · svstem. I submit that that is no argument. The establishment of such a register has It merely reveals that there is not yet a been undertaken. It has been undertaken in recognition of the importance of speech the United States because the 1975 Education therapy and of other types of therapy to of All Handicapped Children's Act provided the development of the handicapped. that schemes were to be established through­ out the nation to ascertain the number of The second problem is one of allocation handicapped children within the boundaries of available personnel. From examining t!Je of the States. appointments, it seems to me that there is Although there have been some advances a very real need to look at the priorities in this State in recent times, the point ought in this area. If one examines the appoint­ to be made that those advances have been ment of speech therapists-and I refer to made by administrative decision and not leg­ them because there are very few other kinds islative action. The legislation that effectively of therapists in the State system--one finds excludes handicapped children from the edu­ that many of them are made to State schools cation system remains substantially on a Statewide basis. At the same time, unchanged. It is time the relevant legisla­ many hundreds, if not thousands, of handi­ tion in this State was looked at. We need capped children in this State have no speech to enact legislation that will guarantee handi­ therapy programmes at all. They simply capped children a useful and worthwhile have no accessibility to speech therapy. What future. Reports of the Select (20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2879

In closing I quote the words of Eunice has given us a well-balanced and unbiased Kennedy Schriver, the Executive Vice-Presi­ report. I took the liberty of taking a survey dent of the Joseph P. Kennedy Jnr. Founda­ team into my electorate to canvass 700 tion. I believe they are apt words here this hDmes on this subject. I had teams out door­ evening. Referring to the handicapped she knocking, ask!ing people a series of ques.tions said- on the most contentious subjects that we "It is the obligation of each of us to could discuss~and sex education in schools value and nurture above all the moral prin­ was one of them. I am pleased to announce ciples which teach us that all human beings

I have indicated. We cannot continue to Education Department concerning this prob­ ignore the thousands of voices raised in lem, which will be compounded by the support of the report. introduction of altered school holidays. The second matter that concerns my elec­ It is imperative that the Government either torate is the section of the Fifth Interim look at a means of keeping the country Report dealing with isolated children. Again children in boarding schools or pay sub­ I took the opportunity of forwarding to all sidies to allow them to travel to their students in my country electorate a copy homes. A tremendous burden, apart from of the Fifth Interim Report so that their all the inconvenience and isolation, will fall parents could clearly understand the recom­ upon country people. mentations of the committee. Then I took The School of the Air should be organ­ the opportunity of speaking to isolated ised as a classified school. In my electorate parents over the Royal Flying Doctor radio alone, the School of the Air has 130 stud­ network and discussing the recommendations ents. The principal, however, does not with them. I assure the House that I enjoy the rights that are normally enjoyed have the full support of country people by a principal. She is a schoolteacher doing on those recommendations. her job for one year. Instead of having I am pleased that the committee has made a teacher employed for a one-year term, the a number of recommendations that are School of the Air should engage exper­ tremendously beneficial. One of the points ienced teachers who understand the prob­ made most frequently during my discussions lems associated with living in the country. with country people was that there were Mr. Davis: Could they get them? not enough frequencies on the Royal Flying Doctor radio network and that that was Mr. BERTONI: Certainly, from a special- hampering children in the West. After ist field. Such teachers should be made repeated requests through the Education available, as they are at other schools. Department and through Telecom, addi­ tional frequencies were refused. If we are Mr. Davis: Do you agree with the incen­ to do anything positive, we should take tive scheme? immediate steps to increase the number of Mr. BERTONI: Yes, I do, but perhaps frequencies available on the Royal Flying not on the same basis as the honourll!ble Doctor radio network to fulfil other sections member. The isolated teacher should be of the education programme. offered some incentive scheme. Such a Another matter that was brought to my scheme should provide for promotion as attention was the position of itinerant well as monetary compensation. teachers. At the moment, itinerant teachers An Opposition Member: What is your are attached to the School of the Air. They party's polky on it? fly to country areas but, because they can stay only two or three hours at any one Mr. BERTONI: At the moment I am station or with any individual students, they not concerned about my party's policy; I cannot properly supervise the work of the am just stating my views. children. As a result, many problems are either missed completely or cannot be dis­ An Opposition Member: What's the Gov­ cussed at length. Therefore, I think it is ernment's policy? important that more itinerant teachers be attached to the School of the Air to assist Mr. BERTONI: I could ask the honour­ with correspondence courses. One of my able mem·ber what is the La:bor Party's first suggestions would be that these itinerant policy. It may not be the same as the teachers should fly out and stay at least three honourable member's. or four days at a time to supervise the My view is that an incentive scheme .work of country , students and give them should be introduced, based, as I say, not the additional assistance that they need on monetary compensation alone but on because of their isolation. promotion as well. Perhaps a points system could be adopted so that a teacher who Another recommendation concerns the pro­ amassed a certain number of points obtained vision of additional finance for country some benefit, such as a low-interest loan for people travelling in country areas. I cannot the purchase of a home. · There should be stress too strongly the problem that will arise an incentive scheme to induce teachers to from the changed school holidays next year. accept transfers to country areas. There will be a great need to provide financial assistance to country people. Some people have claimed that the imple­ mentation of the Select Committee's report Some parents in my electorate will have would cost as much as $100,000,000. to travel as far as 1 000 km to pick up their children from boarding school and take Mr. Davis: The Premier said that. them back again at the end of the vacation. Mr. BERTONI: Then let me say that The cost involved, taking into account loss of regardless of what it costs, it should be time, cost of petrol and travelling time, implemented. could be as high at $300. The altered holidays will cause tremendous prob1ems next Mr. Prest: You're broke now. Where are year for country people. I wrote to the you going to get the money? Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2881

Mr. :&ERTONI: Let us get the money not and will not go along with it if it from our city counterparts if we have to. is to be as it has been described as some­ For too long the country people and the a sex-education course in primary schools. isolated people have been ignored. For too I agree with the honourable member for long this Government has tended not to Mt. Isa that it should be a human relation­ assist the people in the isolated areas. ships course covering much more than just Mr. Ahern: It will certainly not cost $100 the sex instruction that critics of the recom­ million to implement the Fifth Report. mendation endeavour to say it would be. It should be broadened. That would be of l\1r. BERTONI: I agree. I think those great value to the children in senior grades figures were simply plucked out of the air at primary school. It would help to fit to impress people about the cost of imple­ them for the future, particularly when they menting the report. commen.ce secondary school. I find today that children are more open about their Mr. Prest: The Premier said it. knowledge of the facts of life, and this has Mr. BERTONI: Whether the Premier said no doubt been brought about by the society it or not, I do not believe it. in which we live. This information is openly and readily available in our own homes It is time to stop penalising the iso,lated where television programmes leave very children. They do not have the funds and little to the child's imagination. facilities that their city counterparts enjoy. These isolated children might be few in Mr. Moore: H you put your foot on number but they should have the oppor­ your glasses, you couldn't make a speech. tunities, facilities and benefits enjoyed by children in the coastal areas. We would be Mr. PREST: lf the honourable member at fault if we did not consider the needs put his foot in his mouth, he would shut up. of isolated children. They put up with the I. believe that what is required in our most inconvenient of conditions and they so~Jety 'today, more than ever before, is for complain the least, because we as legislators children to be educated to the highest possible ignore their cries for help. standard, and that means in human relation­ The third and final matter that I should ships, too. We are burying our head in like to discuss tonight concerns teachers and the sand, as a previous speaker said if administrators. Our teachers have been we believe that children today are not s~ek­ unduly criticised. They are genuine, dedi­ ing advice or instruction in human relation­ cated people. For this, we are indeed very ships. A great number of parents want fortunate. Generally, the calibre of young to believe that their sons or daughters are so quiet and shy that they just would not graduates who go to country areas, even and should not be interested in such a those who have been conscripted, cannot be course, and therefore human relationships faulted. They readily fit into a different should not be a school subject. Some parents social life and are usually the leaders in cannot or rwill not communicate with their those communities. They have my deepest children, but they cry ,to high heaven when admiration. I, for one, will not accept they find that their children have had to the endless criticism of our teachers by so find out the facts of life for themselves. I many people who speak from ignorance and therefore believe that an acceptable pro­ misunderstanding. gramme on human relationships should be As I said before, no-one here is naive ~ntroduced into the Senior course. I hope enough to suggest that all is perfect in the that all the work that was done before the education system. This inquiry has shown recommendations were framed 'Will not have clearly the need for change. I believe that been in vain. I hope that the recommenda­ the people want a change, and as legislators tions are not pigeon-holed, as has happened we must force a change in our education to past reports, not only in this house but system. It is our moral duty to ensure that also in other Parliaments, both State and these reports are implemented as quickly Federal. I realise that to implement these as possible. changes in our school system money, and lots of it, will have to be found. But we Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (8.19 p.m.): After knew that before the committee was set many hours of debate, most of the areas in up, so now that its work has virtually been the report have been covered. One of the completed it is up to this Government and matters on which most members have agreed future Governments to make money avail­ relates .to the good wmk done by the com­ able to improve the education system. mittee. I, too, congratulate the members of I do not intend to speak at le1 ~gth on this the committee and their advisers on the report as I ,believe that the evidence and work they did before bringing to the House submissions made to the committee should the many recommendations we have before have been sufficient to show that changes us for consideration. No doubt these recom­ are required in the education system, but mendations will not qe 100 per cent accept­ money mu9t be spent and it is up to the able or accepted without some criticism. Government to provide it. One I can mention is the human relation­ The Minister for Education said that the ships course in schools. It must be handled Queensland Teachers' Union had caused very gently if it is to be accepted. I do great problems in the schools, but I do not 2882 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

believe that that is correct. The Queensland with a handicapped child in the more remote Teachers' Union is a responsible body repre­ areas in the central and western parts of senting a group of responsible and very the State can cope with the situation. I important men and women. I have the know the plight of a handicapped child in a highest regard for the teachers of this State, provincial centre. All children, whether they and over the years I have found them to be come from the cities or country towns, or dedicated to their profession. They are live on properties in the country, or whether dedicated to the interests of the pupils under they be handicapped, should have equal edu­ their control. The union is deeply ,involved cation opportunities. in this issue. lf teachers are to do their I am concerned that pre-school education job in the most professional manner we must is not available for all children. This is have adequate school accommodation. By that I mean adequate class-rooms of an another area in which monev has to be acceptable standard, adequate furnishings, spent. We need more pre-schools. All child­ adequate staff rooms, adequate covered areas ren should have the opportunity to attend to cope with varying weather conditions, pre-school. Pre-school education should not adequate staff, including teacher aides and be available just to the favoured few. Over­ supply teachers to allow for acceptable class all, this Government and future Governments sizes, adequate sporting amenities and must give greater priority to education by adequate teacher housing and accommoda­ making the necessary money available, and tion. When all these things are provided the money should be spent well and wisely. I am sure that the union will have far less Today more children are staying at high work to do. Teachers will be happier and school to Grades 11 and 12. More chLidren morale in the schools will be much higher. are seeking further education. The main Parents and pupils will be satisfied that we reason for this is that jobs are not available have their interests at heart, and I am sure for them. Many are not able to obtain the that the standard of education will improve jobs for which they apply because they are immensely. not adequately educated. Only the education I am sorry to have to say that at this system can be blamed. Let us make these time the standard of facilities in our schools major changes so that we give every child is not up to the standard that I, as a parent, an equal opportunity for education and teachers or union delegates regard as accept­ employment. able in .today's conditions. When we make requests or demands of the department we Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (8.28 p.m.): It are always told, "Sorry, we haven't got the gives me pleasure to rise in this debate and funds to carry out that work." comment on the recent education inquiry that took some two years to complete. It Finally, I must draw the attention of the has been a very important review of educa­ House to the urgent need for specialist edu­ tion in the State. It was undertaken at a cation-specialist teaching for handicapped time when there was so much criticism of children. I fully support the remarks made education in Queensland. Whenever there by the member for Mt. Gravatt who has is criticism of any system, people tend to gone into the subject much more thoroughly become disappointed and look for faults. In than I have. He has had vast experience in fact, they tend to undermine the confidence this field. I believe that children in special of those involved in the system. I believe schools are being catered for up to a point that this inquiry has done a lot to return in most centres. However, some centres are us to a state of normality. I hope that it overcrowded. Although the teachers are win impress the importance of education on doing a wonderful job, they need relief those in power who make decisions on the from overcrowding. More special schools course education will take from now on in must be built. The speciaJ schoo·l in my this State. area should be expanded. The teachers at the Gladstone Special School are wonderful, I do not think anyone can deny that and the children really appreciate what they education is a subject that moS>t people hold do to help them. Unless handicapped child­ very dear to their hearts. T•hat is why there ren live in a major centre, they are has been such a tremendous interest in .the neg,Jected. repo:r.t of the commi1tee. It is why an array of submissions were made to the commiHee. The parents of handicapped children find it terribly difficult to convey their children The main problem ahead is to find suffi­ for many miles in their cars. I know that cient funds to carry out the majority of the some parents travel up to lOO miles a day recommendations made by the committee­ just so that their children can receive a certainly the most worthwhile ones. I say lesson for half an hour or an hour in a tha:t in the light of the reduction in certain major centre. At times, handicapped children education services that have occurred in this have to be sent away from home for the State since the last Budget. I still think of them as cut-backs in education but, of whole week. They live with foster parents course, the Treasurer is quick to remind me so that they can receive some speciaHst that in fact an additional $49.5 million has education. been made available for education, and There is a need fo-r a greater number therefore it was not a cut-back in funds but of specialist teachers to be employed by a cut-back in certain services. Those cuts in the department. I fail to see how a parent servkes are as unfair to one Queenslander Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2883 as they are to another. I instance the reduc­ drivel'S. In my opinion, the ability to sur­ tion of serV'ices by teacher aides and clerk­ vive on the roads should be taught in our typists. The principal at the Kenilworth schools. school, which includes a pre-school, a primary school and a secondary school, has Mr. Moore: How are you going to do that? to leave his class-room to answer the phone. Teach them to drive a semi-trailer? That is a duty that he should not have to penform, and it is surely a waste of resources. Mr. SIMPSON: No. We must insist on adequate education programmes, which other Another area of cut-back is that of States and countries have, and the require­ janitor-groundsmen. The work of janitor­ ment that a licence not be issued until groundsmen is a great assistance in the the person has the necessary mental stability operatt throughout that to be important. Queensland. I hope that interest will con­ vince Cabinet, particularly the Treasurer, of The primary purpose of education is to the need for greater education funding. produce responsible citizens-responsible citizens being those who need to work not Mr. l\Ioorc: They get too much money just for the work ethic but to cope with now. the responsibility of living, of having fami­ lies and of maintaining and supporting Mr. SIMPSON: I do not agree wi·th that. others. We must be taught to help others Education is the most important thing in in the community and to become respon­ our lives. sible citizens. The interesting point is: do Mr. Moore: Of course it is. That has we in fact educate our young people for nothing to do with money, though. so long that they lose the ability to acquire the work ethic? They remain at school or Mr. SIMPSON: Efficiency in educ&tion is college until they are 20 or 22, by which something that should be looked at and time they do not easily accept the discip­ reviewed continually so that we get value line of working for others or even of work­ for money. Lt is very difficult to assess. I ing for themselves. think all honourable members would agree With the changing technology in our com­ that such statist•ics and facts are not readily munity, it may well be that young people available in relation to education. That is will have to adapt themselves to new work one matter that the committee noted. It is styles and occupations. They may be better very difficult to compare our standard with off if they leave school at the age of 15 that of another State or nat•ion. If we are or 16, at which time the wage structure able to assess the position of education now allows them to compete in the workplace in some sort of finite terms, I hope we far more competitively against working will be able to assess its po~tion in X num­ mothers than thev are now able to do. They ber of years. If education is compared to would have that- advantage, and also learn the attainments of man ,in other professions, the work ethic. They could then further it does not show up in a favourable light. educate themselves, either in the evenings It has not increased the capacity of people while they were working during the day or to learn by 500 per cent, as may be the by full-time studies. case at the work-place where technology Many aspects of the practicality of educa­ has had a great effect. Only slight increases tion should be looked at. There is the in the effectiveness of education have been matter of students being assessed earlier to achieved, but they are increases. discover w·hether their aptitude fits them to I was interested to hear the honourable be tradesmen or artisans in our community. member for Landsborough speak of the There do not seem to be the numbers distances that some children had to travel willing to take those work positions at the in remote areas of the State. He mentioned moment. Should we be teaching young that some of them drove themselves. I can people at the primary stages of education to only say that the remote areas of Queens­ use typewriters? That would have a twofold land will have some yonng and very ski1Ied benefit: it would improve the legibility of 2884 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education the written word and it would fit them to People in my electorate are concerned move into the computer age which at the about guide-lines, but I do not think it is moment is (I was going to say "keyed" to fair to go into the matter in detail until the keyboard) operated from the keyboard. guide-lines are actually laid down. One With the introduction of new technology, must wait till they are laid down and then the stage might be reached at which sophis­ see whether it is possible to implement them. ticated machines would be voice-operated When new ground is being broken, tests rather than operated by a touch on a key­ must be conducted to see whether or not it board. I believe that to enable people to is suitable. get through more work and express their thoughts legibly, children should be taught Mr. Davis: I support it because I have to use a typewriter at a very young age. seen it work in private schools. Mr. Hansen: We would then be able to Mr. SIMPSON: That is the type of read it, too. information that should be assessed. Mr. Davis: It has been assessed and Mr. SIMPSON: That is correct, and their evidence has been put before the committee. ability to communicate with their fellows would be much improved. Mr. SL\'IPSON: Concern has been expres­ sed in my electorate and, if it is introduced, Some people are still demanding the use it must be strictly in accordance with the .of external examinations instead of the guide-lines laid down. If the incidence of present system of assessment. However, venereal disease and promiscuity were to the committee found that the present system increase, it would indicate that the scheme is the better one, so it seems that the old was not succeeding. system has gone for good. In my opinion, external examinations had merit in certain I pay a tribute to the great work done by circumstances, and certain employers still p. and c. associations, which provide addi­ support them strongly. The difficulty with tional facilities in both the class-room and the assessments, as with other aspects of the playing areas. present system, is to determine to what Mr. Lester: They deserve great credit. They extent they are based on practicality and to are a great help to this State. what extent they are made by academics whose point of view is far removed from Mr. SIMPSON: Indeed they are. Often the class-room and even farther removed I hear criticism to the effect that they are from the work-place. only a milking cow and exist only to raise funds. That, of course, is not so. Unless The question of human relationships is probably attracting too much attention. An people are given an opportunity to strive for a common goal, they will quickly lose honourable member has suggested already interest. that one should take note only of what one sees and hears. What I have observed in At one school in my electorate the p. and c. my electorate is that if only a minority of association decided its task was not to raise people are suggesting that the sex-education funds but to look into the class-room part of human relationships should not be activities. The attendance and support for taught in schools, they have certainly got that association fell right away, with the their message through to me. They have result that it became quite ineffective. Now, done it not in an organised way-one can it is raising funds. The parents have a pick that type of approach quite readily­ common interest and are contributing a but in a very personal and concerned way, good deal even at the academic level. I and many people, including a number of commend that p. and c. association as well church leaders, have come to my office. as all the others. I commend those dedicated teachers who Mr. Davis: You would not be too hard take a personal interest in their students. to sway. It is easier for a teacher to do that, of course, if he or she has a small class. It is also Mr. SIMPSON: I did not say anything easy at small schools. One school in my about being swayed. It is no good talking electorate, the Kin Kin Junction State School, about people who do not go to the trouble of presently has 14 pupils. At one time its making an appointment to see a member of enrolment was as low as seven. Its p. and c. Parliament in his office but simply send association, instead of having an attendance re8!ffis of mail. of 5 per cent at meetings-which is the Mr. Davis: I want to know which you average throughout the State-has a 100 per support, "Yea" or "Nay". cent attendance. The meeting is attended by 14 or 15 people representing the five or six .families who have children attending Mr. SIMPSON: Do I support personally? the school. That is an example of the Mr. Davis: Yes. dedication of the parents whose children attend small schools. Mr. SIMPSON: I support the introduct-ion J pay a tribute to parents who live in of a scheme that is properly prepared, taught remote areas and teach their children because by properly qualified people, and acceptable they simply cannot send their children to to parents. schoo.J over vast distances. Some parents Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2885 are forced to send their children to private Suggestions have been made from time .to boarding schools located hundreds of miles time that we return to a pub1ic examination away. Such parents deserve special tribute. system. I am happy that the committee has As the honourable member for Mt. Gravatt very strongly recommended against a return pointed out, some children are in need of to such a system. The public examination special education. In my electorate, a band system is the one that I grew up with and I of parents .in Nambour and the surroundino­ do not think that H is the best. It encour­ district take their children to Brisbane reg~ ages crammed knowledge rather than an ularly so that they can benefit from a special understanding of the subject. It is a scheme known as CHILD, which stands sudden-death way of passing or not passing for "Children with Learning Difficulties". For the Senior Examination atter 12 years of years those parents have done that without education, panticularly if a student is not any financial assistance. People like those good at examina·tions or is affected by nerves ~ave paved the way for new programmes at examination time. m our schools to help children who are The current assessment system was intro­ really in need and are not given proper duced under the Radford scheme. Whilst I attention in our education system. have no bone to pick with the Radford Other persons ,who are in need are migrants scheme, I make the observation that it was and refugees. They need help 1n learning our introduced in haste and without preparation. language and our way of life. Assistance It is only now, some years later, that teachers in this area and special education in are understanding it. We have a long way to languages are very important. go before some of the parents and most of the students understand it. I strongly com­ It is a disappointment that the parents do mend the Select Committee on advocating not show the interest in languages that they no major change in this regard. The present should show and that the Education Depart­ system is working and improving and we do ment does not support and foster the teach­ not want to tamper with it. ing of languages used in the area surrounding I would warn against over-testing under us. I refer particularly to the Asian lan­ the Radford scheme. Continual testing at guages. That area of study should be fos­ schools on a weekly :basis, by subject, in many tered and _develope?. People are inherently schools, leads to tension in some pupils. lazy. Engl1sh-speakmg people certainly are. Whilst it is hoped that mo~t of them can They tend to stick to their own language and learn no other. cope with that tension as distinct from big tensions twice a year, there is no doubt that I commend the committee members on it creates other problems in young pupils. their dedication and work. I hope it One of them is, and I see this more and impresses the Treasurer so that most of the more, that some children who have recommenda:t·ions come to fruition and give been subjected to this system for some us an even better education system in years are being burnt out by the time they Queensland. reach the end of their Senior year. Lt is very interesting that a few years ago a fairly large Mr. P. N. D. WHITE (Southport) (8.51 proportion of pupils wanted to go to some p.m.): Firstly, like most other members tertiary institution, but now a lot of them I should like to commend the members of are not interested in going on because they the commiHee, particularly the chairman believe they have been literaUy flogged in the and their advisers. They have done a tre~ school sys•tem by the testing programme. mendous job and have contributed sig­ They are no longer interested in acquiring nificantly to education in this State. further knowledge. I think that is a very sad reflection on the Radford system. I am . 'We have a very sound education system not advocating a change in the principles of m Queensland. We have certainly come a the system, but ·I would warn against the long way in the last few years. Recently, at over-testing which is part and parcel of the centenary of the Southpor.t State SchooJ, the Radford system. I saw examples of the old desks, sbtes and I think that the proposed change to a books that were used 100 years ago. Look­ semester system as against a term system ing at them, I realised how far education has •as we have now ,will be good. When progressed in the past 100 years and, more children go on holidays in May, although importantly, in the past 30 years since I they should be able to relax and enjoy was a pupil at a State school. In a lot of themselves, they are worried by the cases, the cnHicism of this system is unjusti­ thought of having end-of-semester examin­ fied. H is up to the pupils and their parents ations some weeks after they return to to make the most of a system that is pro­ school. I must commend the Government V'ided for their benefit. for this change, although it has taken some I should like to say a few words about the time to introduce a semester holiday system assessment and report1ng system. Assess­ in line with the semester examination system. ment and reporting are not the aim of the I would now like to make a few remarks education system. The aim is to teach and about the reporting system. The Select Com· impart knowledge. Nevertheless, assessment mittee has recommended a change to a com· and reporting do have a profound effect on petency-based system as opposed to a norm· the future of many pupils, so it is important based system. This is a refinement of the that it is accurate and fair. recommendations made by Professor Scott. 2886 Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

I believe it is a very sensible approach, they are not paid? Many members of boards and what is more, it has general support in my area are paid reasonable fees for within the education community. But it is doing considerably less work. If we are to no good adopting the new competency-based ensure that the recommendations of this system unless it is properly funded. We Select Committee are implemented, it is time do not want to see a repeat of the intro­ that we recognised the work of the board. duction of the Radford scheme, which was While I am talking about the board, introduced without proper funding and is only now being understood. I do not know there is a second change that I would how expensive it will be to introduce the strongly recommend. H is high time that competency-based system, but I know that if a full-time chairman was appointed to this it is not properly funded it is not worth board and was fully paid. I would also pursuing, and I would ask the Government strongly recommend that this full-time to take note that it is going to cost money chairman come from outside the Public and must be done properly. Syllabuses will Service. have to be rewritten and training programmes Mr. Lester: We need a man of the highest for teachers introduced. I can only say that if the Government is not prepared to possible calibre for this job. undertake the proper funding for the intro­ Mr. P. N. D. WHITE: I could not agree duction of this system then it should be postponed until such time as funds are more with the honourable member. available. I do not wish these remarks to be taken While on the subject of funds, I would as a reflection on previous chairmen of this like to raise a point which is not covered board. Nevertheless, the fact is that the four by the Select Committee's report but is chairmen to date, able men as they were, very fundamental to the education system in have all been members of the Education this State. I am talking about payments Department. I think it is important that or, more pertinently, lack of payments for this Board of Secondary School Studies is the members of the Board of Secondary not seen as an extension of the Education School Studies. There would be very few Department and is not controlled or chaired boards or authorities, of which we have by someone who is familiar only with the too many in this State, whose members Education Department system. It should be do not receive remuneration or allowances an independent body, subject to the Minister for their work. As far as the Board of but with an independent chairman who can Secondary School Studies is concerned-a bring some expel'tise to bear on the subject. body which is absolutely fundamental to I believe that until there is a full-time secondary school education in this State­ independent chairman-and by "independent" its members recei·ve no payment what­ I mean someone from outside the Education soever, and many of them do not Department-and unti.J the board members even receive a travelling allowance to are reasonably paid, we will have Buckley's attend board meetings. I must say chance o.f carrying the recommendations of that this knowledge has only been lately the Select Committee into the secondary acquired by me, but I find it astounding school system. that a board which is so important to educ­ ation in this State is not properly supported. I now turn to the subject of human The chairmen of most authoTities receive relationships courses in schools. substantial amounts of money. The chairman Mr. Moore: Hear, hear! of the Board of Secondary School Studies is the only one who receives an allowance, Mr. P. N. D. WHITE: The honourable and it is what I would regard as paltry. member for Windsor wi:ll no doubt appreciate Mr. Moore: How much is that? what I am about to say. llt is a contentious subject. It has been discussed here at length Mr. P. N. D. WHITE: It works out at over the last few days. At the outset, I something like $10 or $12 an hour for up point out that I respect the views of others to four hours, and then he is on his · own. on this subject, and I hope that they will Mr. Moore: It is a pittance. respect mine. There is no doubt there is a very heavy body of opinion that any human Mr. P. N. D. WIDTE: Yes. It is inconceiv­ relationship courses in schools impinge on able that we ask a board that has wide the rights and duties of parents, and I would responsibilities to operate on goodwill alone. agree with that. It would be all very well How oan anyone expect this board to perform to leave the whole subject alone if all parents with any enthusiasm over long hours without accepted their responsibi.Jities in this matter. recompensing its members in some tangible But the fact is that they do not. Some will way for the work they do? Quite frankly, not and some cannot. A lot of those who I believe that it is an imposition to ask the cannot are single parents. board to do it. If we are going to imple­ This is a growing problem in some

the school I previously talked about the Human relationships courses are supported figure is 50 per cent. From the inform'ation by most of the churches-by the Catholic given to me I doubt if any scho{)ll in the Church, by the Anglican Church and cer­ State has less than 20 per cent of its pupils tainly by the Lutheran Church. To my who come from single-parent families. So certain knowledge the Lutheran Church has a lot of children will never get the chance a very sophisticated and proven human of talking to a parent on human relation­ relationships course in a school in Brisbane, shiJ?s or sexual education, partly because and propably has them in schools in other their parent is working and does not have parts of the State. The National Party the time and, quite obviously, partly because as a matter of principle supports it and the parent finds it difficult to talk to his or certainly the Liberal Party supports it. The her children of the opposite sex. number of human relationships courses is growing in the private school system The fact is we have to decide whether in this State. I fully recognise that this sort of education is the responsibility its introduction in the State school of the Department of Education. I think it system must be handled carefully, Is. But in any case we have to take a through a judiciously developed sylla­ clc;se loo.k at the problem of single-parent bus, as recommended by the committee, children m State schools. Teachers throu<>h­ by teachers trained under a special pro­ out this State are becoming counsellors" as gramme. What I want to see-and I hope well as teachers. They are not trained to be ,J do see it-is human relationships courses counsellors but many of them do their become a normal part of the State school best. Th~ provision of special counsellor­ curriculum. Sex education is part of life. teachers .m schools with a very high percent­ I do not see why it should be abnormal age of smgle-parent familtes must be looked at very closely. in an education system that is teaching children to take part in life. (\. proposal . of the human relation­ I shall now direct a few comments to ships courses Is that parents attend with SEMP. The aim of the SEMP material is their children after school. That is all to develop an understanding of society and very well but I suspect, and I think most the forces that shape that society, to encour­ m~mbers would agree, that those parents who age responsible participation in social life, wtll make the effort to attend such a course and to develop the student as a person. It after school with their children are the was developed by the very highly regarded very parents of children who do not need Curriculum Development Centre in Canberra, ~he course at all. It is the children who a body whose job it is to provide material nave only one parent or no parent who have a need for such a course. to support schools, not to dictate to them. SEMP is not an attempt to centralise our Abortion has been mentioned here before education system but to produce material at and I men~ion it again. Some complai~ a reasonable cost from which schools can ab_out abortwn and the abortion laws in draw as they wish. SEMP has generally been thts State, yet if some positive action was accepted in all States. It is controversial taken with children at a younger age many material. No-one is ramming it down any of. the problems which can subsequently school's throat. It is there to supplement a anse. would. not appear. My wife is a course. The significant benefits of the physwt.herapist and she conducts child birth material, I believe, are that it teaches people ~ducatwn classes from time to time. The a regard for others, their personal responsi­ Ignorance of. some l;J- and 15-year-olds in bility in relation to others, some responsibility these classes IS ~ppalhng. Pregnant girls of to community life and, finally, a regard for 14 or 15 have literally not the faintest idea family life. ?f how they became pregnant and, what I was very disappointed to see what I IS more. have not the faintest idea regard as a knee-jerk reaction when the of how the baby will be born. If we SEMP material was banned in Queensland. ~re prepared. to put up with that sort of I suspect that it was banned by people who 1gnoran~e Without trying to do something had either not read it nor did not understand about It, we stand condemned. it. It is also a very sad reflection that it The Sel~ct Committee has tabled various was banned in response to a minority group fi.gure~ which show that births outside mar­ of people who did not wish their children nage m Queensland are higher than those in to be exposed to attitudes and values con­ other States. Queensland's V.D. rate is cer­ trary to their own. This, I believe, is the !ainly nothing to be proud of. I have heard absolute height of prejudice and insularity. It mentioned in this Assembly that because During this debate there has been much ;mly . a small percentage of schoolchildren emphasis on the sexual content of the human m th1s State have become pregnant or have relationships course. It is certainly part of V._D., we should do nothing about it. I it, but those extremists who take a puritanical fall to see. the logic of that argument at stand, such as Mrs. Rona Joyner, are doing all. Ce:tamly a large proportion of young the children of this State a great disservice. women m th1s State do not have abortions· Most parents in this State want a human and the majority of people do not hav~ relationships course in the schools their child­ V.D. But why do we ignore a significant ren attend. What is more, most children minority because the majority does not have need it. a problem? I cannot understand the logic In conclusion, let me say that the educa­ of that argument. tion system in this State is very good. It can 2888 Reports of the Select [20 MARcH 1980] Committee on Education be improved and I believe that the recom­ Jeparit, a sma:II town in Victoria. Sir Donald mendations of the Select Committee will go Bradman grew up in Cootamundra. Yvonne a long way towards improving it. My one GooJagong, possibly the best ambassadress fear is that the thrust of the recommenda­ Austmlia has had, grew up in a small western tions of this report will be rejected by people town in New South Wales. Where did Sir who do not understand. Charles Barton, the former Co-ordinator­ General receive his early education? In the Mr. LESTER (Peak Downs) (9.14 p.m.): town of Clermont, wihere I live. Sir Jack Today has been a very pleasing one for me Egerton also came from Clermont. Arthur because this morning the Minister for Educa­ Beetson went to school in Roma. Ail those tion gave formal approval to something I people came from country areas, and their have been advocating ever since I became names are better known than those of many a member of Parliament-the introduction of people who grew up in the city.. Amongst first-aid classes into Queensland schools. ,them there are people of real quahty. When one has tried for so long to help people, it is very heartening to see that One of the greatest boons to count_ry common sense has eventually prevailed and people has been the introduction of mobile Queenslanders who now pass through our schools to Central Queensland. That came school system will learn something about abotlit as a result of my liaising with the first-aid. Minister for Education, Mr. Bird, and wirth Mr. Cy,rH Connell of P.C.A.P. and other The first-aid classes will consist of three people in the Education Department. They sections. There will be speoi:a·l classes in came with me into Central Queensland to general first-aid for Grade 1 to Grade 7; a small place named Mt. Douglas, .which is there wiU be more specialised t~pes of first­ on the banks of the Belyando Rwer ha'lf aid classes from Grade 8 to Grade 10; and way between C1ermont and Charters Towers. there will be further first-aid classes in They met with people who had travelled Grades 11 and 12. Those completing the hundreds of miles. On that night somebody course in Grade 12 will qualify for a St. stated that, no matter where the school was John Ambulance Cerbificl!lte. Without going located, most people would have to travel into very much detail, I thought I should 50 or 60 mHes each way each day to enable announce that to the House. their ch~ldren to l!lttend school and that The honourable member for Lands­ therefore a school could not be built in the borough and .the members of the Select area. On that night was born the idea of Committee tried to find sensible solutions the mobile schooJ. to the problems besetting .the education sys­ ![ must not forget that young Bob Katter tem in Queensland. I commend them for attended the meeting. He and I persuaded not having stayed in Brisbane. 11hey traveiJed authority that country people needed a g?. the St·ate and saw all the d·ifferent facets of They were given a go. They are still the education system. That is the way in being given a go. I understand that the which an inquiry ought .to be conducted, and mobile school system has been so successful that ·is why the report of the committee that moves are under way to extend it. has been well accepted generally. Probably At present a mobile manual arts centre it is the most important inquiry ever under­ travels aroun'd Queensland. A mobile arts taken in Australia, because its findings have and crafts centre is needed, as are back-up been based on common sense and will assist people who can teach parents how to teac_h children greatly in the years to come. In their children. Parents who teach their fact, because of the improvement in the children through correspondence face tremen­ standard of education, the community dous problems. When I went to school, genera'lly will be assisted. things were different. Since then gre~t Every child, no matter where he lives, has advances have been made. Advances will a right to primary education, secondary edu­ continue to be made. But those parents cation and tertiary education. Why should who live in the remote parts of the State education systems thmughout the world and teach their children deserve gold medals. favour those who are fortunate enough-{)r, They certainly need help. perhaps, unfortunate enough-to live in On occasions people who live in isolated cities? Why should not educat·ion be brought areas are brou'ght to a central poir:t a_nd to country areas so that it can be grasped by given tuition. I hope that Camp Fmrbmrn all who wish to make ·the most of it? It will be used for that purpose. At the pre­ must be remembered thM times are chang­ sent time the camp at Tallebudgera is u~ed ing and that people need more qualifica­ successfully for that purpose. Much remams tions ~if they are to obtain employment and to be done. It must not be forgotten th~t play an important role in the community. parents who are trying to educate the1r I repeat: education must be taken to country children must be helped. If they are not areas, and every person living in a country helped, the whole system will fall down. area must have .the opportunity to become Let us not forget the efforts being made educated to the degree that he wishes. by parents who orga_nise play groups . for Let me remind the House tha·t country children from many miles around. The little people are not a lot of bumpkins. Many sports meetings that ar_e conducted. for important people have received their early isolated children are helpmg those children education in country areas of Australia. Sir face up to the challenges of life. I can­ Robert Men21ies received his education in not praise too highly the members of the Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2889

Isolated Childrens and Parents' Association, year, and last year a new school opened in nor can I praise too highly the officers of Blackwater North. Enormous amounts of the Education Department who are doing money have been spent on e~tensions to their best to help them. Cyril Connell schools at Capella and Comet. When the deserves special praise for his wonderful work. committee received representations from He came to Mt. Douglas on the night Capella, the need existed for a secondary that I mentioned and saw the need to school complex to Grade 10. I hope that will help country areas. become a reality. In the country we have come a long way. r do not think it is fair that we in the In recent times, we have seen the introduc­ country areas should be compelled to cry out tion in the Peak Downs electorate of dental continually for more. I do not know wha:t therapy units and at Moranbah and Black­ some Ministers must think of me because water the establishment of special education every time they see me they say, "What do centres. I hope that a similar centre will you want to do nex:t, Vmce?" soon be established at Emerald. Mr. D'Arcy: Do all people in the country, Many new schools have been established like you, make gentlemen's agreements? in my electorate. For example, last year the Premier opened the new high school Mr. LESTER: I do not quite know what at Moranbah and early next year the Moran­ the honourable member is referring to. I bah East State School will be opened. say to him, most respectfully, that I irrheDited the most run-down electorate that ever there Mr. DAVIS: I rise to a point of order. was in Queensland. It was represented by a The honourable member is not speaking to very wonderful person but he lived in Bris­ the Select Committee's report. He is talking bane. I inherited awful roads-- about his electorate. Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER Order! I must Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Row): insist on relevance to the reports. Order! I suggest that the honourable mem­ ber refer to the report. Mr. LESTER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You might keep those fellows in Mr. LESTER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy order a bit. Speaker. My comments relate indirectly to Why should we in the country have to the report, because the committee members continually cry out for speech therapists and came to the remote areas in my electorate. music teachers? I should like to say how totally disgusted I am wi!ih A.L.P. members for trying to stop Mr. D'Arcy: Mainly because it ;s your me from pu!Jf.ing forward the voice of the Government. country people. It is one of the most scan­ Mr. LESTER: Don't talk about mv Gov­ dalous things that has happened in this Par­ ernment in regard to schools. The only liament whilst I have been here. I have run-down schoois exiS>ted under the A.L.P. been sticking up for the country people and You hardly had any high schools in Queens­ somebody living in Brisbane is trying to land. You had broken-down buildings. stop me talk~ng in their interests. That is A.L.P. members! They could not care less Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The about the country. Every t'ime they are put honourable member will address the Chair. to the test !ihey cry Brisbane. I hope that the honourable member wiU sit down and Mr. LESTER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy keep quiet. Speaker. One achievement in this area has been Mr. Davis: How do you st&nd on sex the provision of a teacher at Camp Fair­ education? bairn to teach children in the art of bush­ craft. When committee members came to Mr. LESTER: I am coming to that. The my area they had the good fortune to see way Opposition members are going, ~hey will this operation. They were able to see kiddies take up all of my time. coming from a11 parts of the electorate to We should introduce courses for parents Camp Fa:irbairn for upwards of three days so that they are able to help their children at a Hme to be taught bushcraft, water with their homework. safety, how to deal with snakes, etc. The committee members, having come to the Mr. D'Arcy: Compulsory courses? country, have tried to prove that they are looking after country interests. It is import­ Mr. LESTER: It is difficu1t to introduce ant that I relate, in this Parliament, some compulsory courses for them. Certainly they of the things they are doing, even to mention should be made available for parents who that the committee met in the Moranbah want them. Parents should be encouraged to High School, so I am speaking to these very undertake them. important reports. I should like to see an extension of the The committee has recommended more T AFE system so that further education can education facilities in the Central Highlands. penetrate more into country areas. Frankly, As a result of that recommendation and I believe we need more regional education many representations, a new school in centres, and I cannot think of a better place Emerald North commenced operation this for one than Emerald. There is already a 2890 Reports of the Select (20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education

rural college in that wonderful area, and That concludes my reports here tonight. there is no reason why in time this could There is much more that one could say about not be extended and eventually become the the field of education, but I have been asked basis for a campus in the Central Highlands to limit myself to 20 minutes and my time area. We have 1o do more research on is now up. I will prepare another report education, but I do approve of what has covering those aspects with which I have been done so ~ar. not dealt in this speech to be delivered in the not too distant future so that we can I want to highlight the fact that the report continue our input, from the floor of the has mentioned the wonderful work done by the staff of the Capricornia Institute of Parliament, in helping to expand the educa­ Advanced Education in Rockhampton and tion facilities of the young children of Cen­ their considerable expertise in computer tral Queensland and, indeed, Queensland as programming, computer design and cross a whole. assembler techniques. The institute has Mr. ELLIOTT (Cunningham) (9.35 p.m.): stimulated programming for Queensland In rising to take part in this debate I would primary schools and this programming is firstly like to take the opportunity of con­ designed to help primary schoolchildren gratulating the honoura:ble member for through their syllabuses. Landsborough and the members of his com­ I might explain that by pointing out that mittee on the tremendous job they have computerisation will be a big thing in educa­ done. I should include in that the people tion in the future. But only American-type of Queensland, whether they be educators or programmes are available for these com­ just people in general who have taken part puters at the moment and American-type in the activities of this Select Committee. I computer programmes in the town of Comet think it would be fair to say that Queens­ would not quite fit. Unless programmes are landers of the future will be very grateful designed to meet the needs of Queensland for the great job that they have done during children, those who use small computers will the last couple of years. only be able to get the American programmes I believe we should be very grateful that that are available. They are written in an this report has brought out what I might American style, using American words and term a greater degree of communication and an American syllabus. These are not suitable consultation. At about the time when the for Queenslanders, particularly the small com­ education inquiry was announced, this area munities in Central Queensland. It is essential of communication and consultation was rather that the programmes be written by top­ tending to break down. There was a fair quality qualified Queensland teachers, because amount of controversy surrounding SEMP that is the only way the programmes will and MACOS. All of us were rather con­ become properly designed teaching aids. cerned about how the education system was Another way to do this would be to have rating in the community and about the trained computer programmers look at a syl­ sort of relationship that existed between labus and then develop a programme which, Parliament, the community and the educa­ tors. I believe that this committee has although not arranged by professionally cemented the relationship between those qualified teachers, would at least have an bodies and that we owe it a tremendous input from people in the field. The computer debt of gratitude. will become an all-pervasive teaching aid and will have such a strong influence on Mr. Davis: Now get off the back-slapping children's learning that programmes must be and get on to the report. designed by professionally qualified teachers. Mr. ELLIOTT: That is fair enough. I If Queensland children are to get the full shall do that for the honourable member. benefit of a programme, even though it is There has been criticism of the standards designed for other countries, we should try of students today. This has been mentioned to make sure that the syllabuses are designed by many people but I think that it bears with this in view. In fact, this programming repeating. People who are seeking what I should be done on an Australia-wide basis. might term middle-of-the-ladder jobs today Why should separate programmes be written possess a lower standard than that possessed in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland by people who sought these jobs many years and so on? This simply means that a lot of ago. Today, so many children continue on money and manpower will be wasted and it to higher levels of education. They do will be more difficult for children to transfer not seek interviews for jobs in industry and from one State to another. commerce. That is why many employers Computers can be used for teaching such who are seeking clerks, secretaries and so things as spelling in Grade 5. They can on are complaining about the literacy and be used in small schools and by isolated numeracy standards of the children seeking children. The uses of computers are unlim­ those jobs. As an employer, I am con­ ited, but we must use :them properly. Pro­ cerned about the obvious lack of ability in grammes used by Queensland children should the educational area in some of the people be written by Queenslanders with expertise who confront me. If people do not have and common sense. We should not be import­ the basics in English and mathematics, it ing some high-flown sort of programme that is fairly difficult for them to carry out even is totally irrelevant to our schoolchildren. fairly basic jobs that involve the solving Reports of the Select [20 MARCH 1980] Committee on Education 2891 of monetary problems or using just day­ to suspend, or to sack for that matter, to-day English in order to get the message teachers who are not suitable. It is not across or to communicate with people. good enough for par,Jiamentarians to be The ability to communicate is obviously placed in a position in which a lot of a very real asset. Irrespective of the level pressure is brought on them by p. and c. of schooling we may have achieved, it is associations who· want a particular teacher important that we are able to communi­ shifted. Where can I try to get a teacher cate with other people and to get our mes­ shifted to? What would the member for sage across, whether it be by the telephone, Brisbane Central say if I had an unsuitable person to person, or by letter. I believe teacher shifted into a school in his electorate? that employers face a problem in this area, He would not appreciate that. That area and I hope that the Minister for Education, must be looked at very closely. in particular, will endeavour to come up The recommendation concerning the use with a solution for it. This view is sup­ of school facilities and buildings is of very ported by many high school principals in my real interest to us all. It is a tremendous area. waste of the public's money and its assets Employers also have a problem in com­ if they are not used to their best possible paring the rating assessment from one school advantage. Those facilities are suitable for with another. I think that we must try adult education, community participation and to come up with a solution to this prob­ this sort of thing. The public use of these lem that is acceptable to the educators, to facilities has, I might add, an additional parents and, in particular, to employers, benefit. If people use them more often, the because, when it is all said and done, they community gets the benefit of them and, in are the people who will employ the children. addition, it could help to overcome some This has a very real bearing on their future. of the security problems that have been I was therefore glad to see that the com­ encountered in the past, such as when schools mittee has recommended more involvement have been burnt down. Therefore I support of the people from commerce and industry this concept wholeheartedly, as would, I feel, in the committees of schools, both to make anyone with common sense. recommendations and also to gain a feed­ We should endeavour to build up the pro­ back from that system. That can only do fession of educators. It is essential that it good. As the honourable member for Lands­ be seen by the puWic to be a noble profes­ borough said, it is building bridges between sion. If it is not held in the highest esteem the community and the educators. That is and put up on a pedestal, we will not a:ttract something of great importance. to it the very best of the young people Ieav­ I would also like to see a greater degree ing school. In that respect, that profession of co-ordination and co-operation between hears some relationship to this place. One the Children's Services Department and the of our problems here--and we bring it on educators, because there are some problems ourselves-is that the minority tends to bring in that regard, particularly in high schools. down the decorum and standing of the In areas such as mv own there is reallv Parliament. The minority discredits 'the not a problem with p-rimary school chi,Jdreri, majority. We should all take note of that. who are basically fair.ly well behaved. But I now comment on the personal relation­ once the high school area is reached, there ships aspect of tJhe report. I support whole­ starts to be a need for discipline when pro­ heal'tedly the concept that everyone has the blems arise with children who are not inter­ right to put his point of view; but let us not ested in school. The problem is not only allow any one group or an organisation of that they do not achieve anything for them­ people or bodies using their collective power selves, but that they bring down the overall coerce members of Parliament. In my standard of the classes. Therefore it is verv opinion, that is what has been done to the important tha:t we ensure that principais honourable member for Landsborough 1n his have the right, and are protected within the electorate. I abhor that type of behaviour. legislation, to administer discipline to these Mr. R. J. Gibbs: He has stood up to it children. In some cases principals must be admirably. in a position to suspend such children for varying periods of time if they cannot be Mr. ELLIOTT: Yes, he has indeed. controlled, because they bring down the It is just not good enough. It has been overall standard in •the class-room and done to me to a lesser degree. I suggest that jeopardise the very future of those children those people have a close look at the legis­ who have to be educated with them. lation relating to doing a detriment to a While I am talking about discipline I wish parliamentarian. Some of them are sailing to say that that discipline should also cover very close to the wind. I repeat that it is the teachers themselves, because at times not only in Landsborough but also in Cun­ some teachers are totai!v unsuitable. For­ ningham. tunately there are not many of them. In I stand right behind the recommendation the six years in which I have been in this that we have a human relationships course place, only two teachers have fallen into [n this State. It has been voted for in all the totally unsuitable category. I could not politica.l parties. In the National Pal'ty the see them out of the education system fast vote taken on this mat1er at our last con­ enough. I believe there must be provision ference resulted in a 10 to 1 majority. 2892 Reports of the Select Com'te, &c. [20 MARcH 1980] Pay-roll Tax Act, &c., Bill

Mr. Davis: Why are your Premier and entirely unsuited and which they have no his wife so much against it? desire to enter." Unfortunately, often my advice is not heeded. Mr. ELLIOTT: All I am interested in is Let me now touch briefly on rural train­ what the majority want. We are here to legislate for the majority in our society. ing schools. That is our right; H is our duty. I am not Mr. K. J. Hooper: Very briefly. worried about which way particular people will jump on any issue. In my opinion, Mr. ELLIOTT: I shall be very brief. I everyone has the right to put his point of know that the honourable member for v'iew, and I will defend that right to the Archerfield gets very tired sitting on the death. However, that is very different from back benches. coercing and pressuring members to vote In my opinion, the rural training schools one way or the other. I was absolutely are doing a very good job. Some of the horrified at the article in today's "Tele­ children in my electorate who have gone graph" that a Catholic parent organisation, to those schools have benefited greatly. How­ which the member for Landsborough indi­ ever, I believe that there is a big challenge cated the other day was a group very much to all of us to ensure that rural training in the minorhy, stated that the member for schools do not develop into institutions that Landsborough should do something one way tend to show children only the good side or the other because of his religious con­ of, say, agricultural technology. We do vic!Jion. That is absolutely abhorrent to me. not want schools that show children only new Catepillar tractors, new headers, new Mr. Ahern: Those people have been trucks, new equipment-nothing old, every­ advised by the bishop that their statement thing looking as if it has been bought in is wrong in fact. the last year or two. It is all very well to show children that side of the coin, Mr. ELLIOTT: I understand that to be but it is absolutely necessary that they under­ the position. I intended referring to that. stand that on many farms today the capital That this should happen is absolutely commitment for equipment is so high that abhorrent to all of us. H is, as the member farmers just cannot afford it. Children going for Landsborough says, a minorHy group to rural training schools must be given the within the church. The members of it stand basic ability to make a compromise, to be condemned for their actions. able to improvise when problems arise, to be able to make a part for a vehicle and I wish to touch very briefly on a few keep old vehicles going. I ask the committee points that have particular relevance to my and the Minister to take my suggestion on electorate. First, I suggest that we should board. be prepared to tackle the problem posed by children who are not suited to courses of I commend the committee for its good an academic type, and there are many such work. children. Debate, on motion of Mr. Wharton, adjourned. Mr. K. J. Hoopcr: Yourself, for example. Mr. ELLIOTT: Possibly that is true. I might have been better suited to a manual PAY-ROLL TAX ACT AMENDMENT arts course. That is a fairly unkind com­ BILL ment. I thought that the honourable mem­ ber for Archerfield had changed his attitude Hon. C. A. WHARTON (Bumett-Leader and was going to be nicer to me. Instead of the House), by leave, without notice: I he sits on the back bench and makes nasty move- remarks about me. "That leave be granted to bring in a Mr. R. l. Gibbs: Casts aspersions on you. Bill to amend the Pay-roll Tax Act 1971- 1979 in certain particulars." Mr. ELLIOTT: Casts aspersions on me. Motion agreed to. Let me return to the point I was making. We mus~ come to grips with the problem FIRST READING and provide manual arts and similar courses Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. that will include subjects that will be use­ Wharton, read a first time. ful . to children when they leave school. It IS no use putting square pegs in round holes; they just do not fit; but there has SECOND READING been a tendency to try to push children Hon. C. A. WHARTON (Burnett-Leader into . courses for w.hich they are totally of the House) for Hon. L. R. EDWARDS unsmted. Not only IS the education system guilty of doing that at times; parents also (Ipswich-Deputy Premier and Treasurer) are guilty of doing it. Many times when (9.55 p.m.): I move- attending speech nights in my elect~rate I "That the Bill be now read a second have said to parents, "One thing you m~st time." be careful of is not to try to push your The Pay-roll Tax Act was amended in children into some profession that you would December last year in order to give effect to like them to be in but for which they are the pay-roll tax concessions announced in Pay-roll Tax Act, &c., Bill [25 MARCH 1980] Ministerial Statement 2893 the 1979-80 Budget. Honourable members will recall that these amendments increased by 20 per cent to $150,000 the pay-roll level below which no pay-roll tax is payable and increased the minimum pay-roll tax exemp­ tion from $27,000 to $30,00 per annum. These concessions are to the benefit of all businesses, but in particular are directed to the relief of small businesses, the cost structures of which do not afford the advan­ tages of economies of scale experienced by their larger counterparts. Queensland has led the way in the area uf pay-roll tax reform. Its maximum exemption level is well in excess of that of any other State. However, it is a fact that the Gov­ ernment's commitment to pay-roll tax relief can only be maintained if the revenue from that source is not eroded by schemes designed to avoid the tax. Accordingly, the Govern­ ment has maintained a constant monitor of pay-roll tax liabilities in order to detect the establishment of avoidance schemes from their outset. As a result of this monitor, a scheme whlch is designed to avoid the payment by a group of companies of very large amounts of pay­ roll tax has come to notice since the enact­ ment of the 1979 amending Act. An amend­ ment to the Act is required to counter this scheme. The scheme involves the establish­ ment of a charitable founda·tion which, amongst other things, pays the wages of per­ sons employed in relation to the activities of a group of companies. On the grorunds that it is •a "public benevolent institution", the foundation claims a "blanket" exemption from pay-roll tax in respect of all of the wages paid by it, notwithstanding that many of the employees are engaged in the com­ panies' normal commercial operations. The proposed amendment will ensure that only the wages of a person employed exclusively in the work of a public benevolent return are exempt. The existing Act also provides for exemp­ tions from pay-roll tax in respect of wages paid by certain other bodies and institutions, which could be used as vehicles for similar schemes involving claims for "blanket" exemptions in circumstances where it is not intended that such exemptions apply. Accord­ ingly, the amendment needs to also define more closely the limits of the exemptions provided for in the Act in respect of wages paid by these bodies and institutions. The amendment wiii ensure that those exemptions extend only to those wages paid to persons engaged exclusively in work for the purposes or activities in respect of which the exemptions are granted to those bodies or institutions. I commend the Biii to the House. Debate, on motion of Mr. D'Arcy, adjourned. The House adjourned at 9.59 p.m. 86501-99