Second Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Wednesday, April 30, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 11, Number 5

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Second Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Island ...... Claire Trevena Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Parksville-Qualicum ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Peace River North ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River South ...... Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Penticton...... Dan Ashton Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond-Steveston ...... Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Skeena ...... Robin Austin Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–False Creek ...... Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2

CONTENTS

Wednesday, April 30, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Ministerial Statements ...... 3291 Condolences for victims of shooting at Western Forest Products mill in Nanaimo Hon. C. Clark A. Dix

Introductions by Members ...... 3291

Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 3293 Bill M211 — Tobacco Control Amendment Act, 2014 J. Darcy

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 3294 Golf industry E. Foster B.C. Youth Week J. Shin Josh Dueck Michelle Stilwell Taxidermists and export permit process D. Donaldson Stan Rogers J. Martin Pine Free Clinic D. Eby

Oral Questions ...... 3296 School district funding for specialized support services and teaching positions A. Dix Hon. C. Clark R. Fleming Hon. P. Fassbender S. Robinson Burnaby school district costs and funding K. Corrigan Hon. P. Fassbender Release of report on investigation into executive compensation at Kwantlen University D. Eby Hon. A. Virk Reporting of executive compensation at Kwantlen University D. Eby Hon. A. Virk Consultation on changes to agricultural land reserve N. Simons Hon. N. Letnick Ban on sale of fl avoured tobacco J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake

Tabling Documents ...... 3301 Correspondence with respect to compensation paid and employment contracts at Kwantlen Polytechnic University

Motions Without Notice ...... 3301 Membership of select standing committees Hon. M. de Jong Petitions ...... 3301 G. Holman J. Th ornthwaite

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House ...... 3301 Bill 19 — Animal Health Act (continued) N. Simons Hon. T. Lake

Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 3315 Bill 19 — Animal Health Act

Committee of the Whole House ...... 3315 Bill 9 — Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong

Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 3318 Bill 9 — Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act

Committee of the Whole House ...... 3318 Bill 20 — Local Elections Campaign Financing Act S. Robinson Hon. C. Oakes V. Huntington A. Weaver H. Bains

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 3328 Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued) M. Farnworth Hon. P. Fassbender S. Fraser V. Huntington H. Bains C. Trevena J. Rice M. Mungall M. Elmore R. Fleming Estimates: Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation Hon. D. McRae J. Kwan B. Routley 3291

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2014 occur, they have echoes that can last a very, very long time. It's important for us, I think, to express solidarity with Th e House met at 1:35 p.m. the people involved, the families involved, the workers who are there, their families, what they must be going [Madame Speaker in the chair.] through today and to refl ect in our own lives, as well, that events happen sometimes that come as a shock, that Routine Business aren't expected to us. It reminds us of the need with our friends, with our Prayers. colleagues, with our families, with those we love to not let pettiness and grievance stand unresolved and to call Ministerial Statements them, to hug them, to express that on this kind of day, be- cause I think these events aff ect all of us, in that sense — CONDOLENCES FOR VICTIMS OF and to take that sense of what it means in our own lives SHOOTING AT WESTERN FOREST and send it with our thoughts and prayers to the families PRODUCTS MILL IN NANAIMO aff ected and to the people of Nanaimo. [1340] Hon. C. Clark: Th e member for Parksville-Qualicum, in her prayer today, off ered the thoughts of this House, Introductions by Members expressed the wish of this Legislature to off er condol- ences to the people of Nanaimo, to the people of the Hon. N. Letnick: Joining us in the House today are province and, in particular, to the individual families 12 grade 11 students and two adults from George Elliot who have been so tragically aff ected. Secondary from my riding. Would the House please Police were called to the Western Forest Products mill make them feel welcome. in response to calls about a shooting. Th e RCMP were on the scene within minutes, and they have a suspect in J. Darcy: Joining us in the galleries today are three custody. students from New Westminster, former students of the Details about the tragedy are still emerging, and of- New West Secondary School now in university: Rajita fi cials are still investigating, but we do know that four Dang, who's a student at SFU; Saba Faremi from UBC; people were shot. Two are being treated at hospital; two and Brianna Cook from SFU. Two of these students have have lost their lives. also been leaders in the Canadian Cancer Society Club Th ankfully, this kind of tragedy is almost unknown in the New West Secondary School. Th ey're joined by in British Columbia. Thankfully, most of us here to- my wonderful constituency assistant Nadine Nakagawa. day cannot imagine what the victims and their families I would ask the House to please join me in welcoming must be going through. But they should know that they them here today. are not alone. Th e people of British Columbia are standing with them. Michelle Stilwell: Joining us in the House today are Victim support services are on the ground, available to two very special guests from my days living in Winnipeg, witnesses and families of the victims, if they need it. Manitoba. Pastor Bob Jacob — along with his wife of I know that members on both sides of this House will more than 50 years, Vi Jacob — is here. Leading and guid- join me in extending our thoughts and our prayers to the ing at Grace Lutheran Church, Bob and Vi were wonder- victims, their families and everyone in the resilient com- ful role models for me and countless other young people munity of Nanaimo who are aff ected by today's events. who were lucky enough to attend their Sunday school classes, youth groups and services. It's just absolutely A. Dix: On behalf of the opposition, I want to join wonderful to have them here today. Would the House with the Premier in sending our thoughts and prayers, please make them feel welcome. particularly to the families of those that work at Western Forest Products, those who work at mills in British J. Shin: I have the pleasure of introducing to the Columbia, those who live in Nanaimo. House my oppa, which means "older brother" in Korean. My colleague the member for Nanaimo has gone back He's just a few years older than me, and we are not to his constituency. blood-related, but with his unwavering support and My colleague the member for the Cowichan Valley friendship, he wouldn't qualify for anything less than was in this mill many times as a representative of work- that. He also happens to be my constituent in Burnaby- ing people. I can tell you that his shock and sense of Lougheed. grief should refl ect all of our sense of shock and all of Mark Se-Hyun Lee came to B.C. as an international our sense of grief. student and decided that this is where he wants to put Violence aff ects us deeply, all of us. When these events his roots down. He has since devoted the last ten years 3292 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

to assisting others from around the world to explore and [1345] experience the best of B.C. His young company, which is ten years old now, has expanded across Canada with R. Chouhan: I join my colleague from Burnaby- seven offi ces, expanded to nine countries and also boasts Lougheed to welcome one of my constituents, Da Som a global on-line community of 93,000 active members. Lee, who's a member of this delegation which is visiting All this he accomplished in his 20s. us today, along with the students and business leaders. Mark just came back from his business trip abroad Would the House join me to welcome Da Som Lee. and rushed over to Victoria so that he can cheer me on today with his team. I would like to introduce four of Hon. S. Anton: Joining us in the House today is Mr. them: Kuk Hyun Kim, Max Choi, Nam Young Shin and Blair Qualey, president and CEO of the New Car Dealers Hwan Hee Kim. Would the House please make my dear Association of British Columbia. Would the House please friends and supporters from the Korean community feel make him welcome. very welcome. K. Corrigan: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to E. Foster: In the House today we have members of also introduce two of my constituents who are with the B.C. Allied Golf Association: Trevor Smith, Tricha the Korean delegation being hosted by the member for Larsen, Kris Jonasson, Blair Armitage, Donald Miyazaki, Burnaby-Lougheed. I would like to welcome Keung Hee Michelle Collins, Andy Hedley and Jerry Rousseau. and Yee Jin, and would the House please make them feel Would the House please make them welcome. very welcome as well.

C. James: I have a constituent visiting today. He is the S. Sullivan: One of the privileges of being an MLA is past fi lm commissioner for Victoria, but his real claim to to be able to work with the wonderful legislative assist- fame is that he's the father of our wonderful communica- ants. We have one very talented young person who is here tions offi cer, Megan Mills. Would the House please wel- today. It happens to be his birthday. Now, he's famous come David Mills to the gallery today. for having the best socks in the building, and, also, he has a lot of talent. I wish I could buy stocks in this young Hon. T. Lake: I have two sets of introductions today. man. I'd like to please welcome and congratulate Derek First of all, I'd like to introduce two of my constituents Robertson. from Barriere, Jill and Bob Hayward. Jill has always shown relentless dedication to the com- H. Bains: Within the vicinity — in fact, I believe he's munity of Barriere, having been recognized just a few outside, with a little blowhorn — is Morgan Forey, visit- years ago with a Diamond Jubilee Medal and yesterday ing us here today. Th is man was homeless, with addiction. with a B.C. Community Achievement Award. She is a He overcame his issues. Now he has taken on the task of leader for the North Th ompson Agriplex and a strong bringing awareness about mental illness. advocate for agriculture and agritourism. She has shared her abilities with many organizations, such as the McLure He has decided to travel and visit every legislature Wildfi re Monument Society, the North Th ompson Fall in this country on his own, and also the Canadian Fair and Rodeo, Rural Crime Watch, and Learning and Parliament, to bring the issues of homelessness and men- Literacy. tal health and to convince the legislators and every per- Her husband, Bob, is with her in the gallery today. It's son that he can of the importance of dealing with mental the fi rst time, I think, I've seen Bob without his cowboy illness and doing more to deal with mental health. So hat. I hardly recognized him. Would the House please please help me to welcome Morgan Forey — and his at- make Jill and Bob Hayward most welcome in the House tempts. today. I also rise today to introduce two guests. Interestingly M. Morris: I have the great pleasure today of hav- enough, Sim Hayward is from Australia, so I don't know ing one of my constituents, an extraordinary lady from if she's related to Jill and Bob Hayward, but maybe I've Prince George, down here. She was one of 31 other helped to reunite some families here today. Sim is visit- recipients yesterday who received the Community ing from Australia, where she's chair of the Cairns sis- Achievement Award at Government House. ter cities advisory committee. She's here visiting Sidney, This lady has volunteered in numerous societies B.C., to celebrate the 30th anniversary of their sister city around Prince George. She's a founding member of the relationship. Prince George Community Foundation. She was an or- Also joining her is Sidney councillor Marilyn Loveless, ganizer of the P.G. Cerebral Palsy Sports Association, and who is the council liaison to the Sidney Sister Cities she's just been one of the pillars of the community for a Association. Would the House please make Ms. Hayward number of years now. Would the House please welcome and Ms. Loveless feel very welcome here today. Judy Dix and her husband, Colin. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3293

S. Simpson: I'm pleased to join in welcoming the dele- K. Conroy: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to gation of student and business leaders from the Korean introduce a longtime family friend — in fact, I think he's community that have been brought here by my colleague been a family friend for almost 40 years — Ed Westlind. from Burnaby-Lougheed. I particularly want to express He's actually a constituent of Nelson-Creston right now, a welcome to Man Young Oh as one of my constituents. but he's a part-time constituent of Skeena, also, as he's Will the House please make him welcome. working up in Kitimat. He's here today with his part- ner, Anne Brewster — Ed Westlind and Anne Brewster. Hon. C. Oakes: It truly is my great privilege and pride I would ask the House to please join me in making them today to recognize and welcome to the House fi ve amaz- very welcome. ing constituents of Cariboo North: Ashley Schmidt, from the Quesnel Downtown Association; Teresa Smith, L. Reimer: Hi. It's my pleasure today to introduce my owner of Circle S Western Wear and the Quesnel down- wonderful legislative assistant, Mr. Suneil Karod. Would town promotions chair; Carol Pitkin, owner of Super the House please make him welcome. Suds, owner of Outlaw, owner of Carver's — amazing small businesses in our community; Tracey Roberts, D. Barnett: Today I would like to ask the House to wel- publisher of the Quesnel Cariboo Observer, in business come with me a constituent of mine, a gentleman who is since 1908; and Kayla Kinloch, of south Quesnel busi- very involved in the forest industry, a great community ness improvement area. volunteer and a director on the board of the Northern Ladies and gentlemen, we are very proud that we have Development Initiative Trust. His name is Tom Hoff man. three fantastic business improvement areas in our com- Please help me welcome him here today. munity. You contribute to build strong communities on behalf of business improvement areas across the prov- Introduction and ince. We're incredibly proud. I know that you've learned First Reading of Bills a lot. I can't wait for to you bring those ideas back to our BILL M211 — TOBACCO CONTROL community. AMENDMENT ACT, 2014 Would the House please help me and welcome our constituents. J. Darcy presented a bill intituled Tobacco Control [1350] Amendment Act, 2014. S. Chandra Herbert: I, too, want to join with the J. Darcy: I move that the bill intituled the Tobacco Burnaby-Lougheed MLA — my colleague, the very able Control Amendment Act, of which notice has been given MLA for Burnaby-Lougheed — in welcoming some of in my name on the order paper, be introduced and read my constituents — Sun Hwa Bong, Sung Eun Kim, Sae a fi rst time now. Byeol Jang — who help make up the vibrant life that we know in Vancouver–West End. Motion approved. Welcome to the Legislature. Madame Speaker: Please proceed. J. Yap: Th ere is a group of 41 students and three teach- ers from Saint-Charles School in Saint-Brieuc, France, J. Darcy: I am introducing this bill, which prohibits who are visiting the Legislature today. Th ey are going to the sale of fl avoured cigarillos and other fl avoured to- have a tour just aft er question period and then will come bacco products, because our current legislation does not into the gallery, but I wanted to introduce them. do enough to protect our youth against the harmful ef- Th ey are accompanied by Alex Campbell — who I fects of nicotine and tobacco. know you know, Madame Speaker — the retired princi- Th ese products are oft en packaged to resemble tins of pal in McMath Secondary School in Richmond-Steveston. candy or cosmetics, like lipsticks or mascara, and they Th ese students and teachers are here as part of a unique come in a wide variety of fl avours. Th ey oft en produce a exchange that has been going on for a number of years, sweet-smelling smoke instead of the usual harsh tobac- Th e students from France are here for the next two weeks co taste and smell. Flavoured tobacco products are oft en and here in Victoria today, and in the fall a group of stu- sold in single sizes for as little as $1, all of which makes dents from McMath Secondary in Steveston will go to it easy for young people to become addicted to tobacco. France for the reciprocal visit. It's a great program that Th e tobacco companies have a very, very slick mar- has been going on for a number of years. keting strategy going that targets youth, and the bad I would ask the House to join me in welcoming these news is that it's working. A recent youth smoking survey students and teachers who are visiting from Saint- found that 53 percent of youth tobacco users in British Charles School in Saint-Brieuc, France. Columbia had used fl avoured tobacco products. Th at's 3294 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

over 30,000 B.C. students. industry are students. Tobacco is still the leading cause of death and disease Th e excellence of our golf courses is well recognized at in B.C., killing over 6,000 British Columbians every year. home and abroad. B.C. golf tourism is the main reason It costs the B.C. economy $2.3 billion a year, and the ma- why almost one million Americans made overnight trips jority of new tobacco users are under 18. to British Columbia last year. We have made great strides in reducing smoking rates When it comes to taking care of the environment, the in British Columbia, but we must do more. Ontario and B.C. golf industry takes a responsible approach to man- Alberta have already banned the sale of fl avoured tobac- aging their local environment by naturalizing managed co. Th e Canadian Cancer Society is calling for a ban. Th e green space into wildlife and plant habitat and by build- Minister of Health has stated that he supports such a ban, ing wildlife corridors for local animals. yet we continue to see these products sold to youth in As a result, golf is good for our health, good for our British Columbia. If there ever was a time for us to come environment and good for our economy in British together on a non-partisan basis, this would be the time. Columbia. I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the Please join me in welcoming our guests, and when you day for second reading at the next sitting of this House have time in your schedules, please take a few minutes or aft er today. an hour or two to visit one of the 300 locally owned golf courses in British Columbia. Bill M211, Tobacco Control Amendment Act, 2014, introduced, read a fi rst time and ordered to be placed on B.C. YOUTH WEEK orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House aft er today. J. Shin: Madame Speaker, 12 percent of our population [1355] in B.C. is young people, like the many that we have here today in the House. Starting tomorrow, for the next seven Statements days our province will be celebrating B.C. Youth Week. (Standing Order 25B) What started just as a little project by a small group of municipal planners and youth recreation leaders quick- GOLF INDUSTRY ly spread to a provincewide initiative, and 19 years later, B.C. Youth Week now brings all of us together to not only E. Foster: Th e fi rst golf courses were built in British engage and connect but really empower and celebrate the Columbia 122 years ago, the fi rst at Jericho Beach in young British Columbians that we have. Vancouver in 1892. Over the last few years the Vancouver Again this year we can look forward to a week full of Golf Club, Shaughnessy Golf and Country, Qualicum fun activities organized by youth for youth. We'll have Beach Memorial Golf Club and Royal Colwood golf and opportunities to recognize their contributions at youth country club on the Island, and Vernon Golf and Country award ceremonies. I look forward to honouring the work Club — obviously, one of my favourites — all celebrated of Burnaby Youth Sustainability Network in my com- their 100th birthdays. munity. Golf courses and the golf industry in B.C. have come From B.C.'s children waiting for adoption to child a long way from the early courses, which are still among poverty, from hidden sexual exploitation to cyberbully- some of the top in British Columbia today. ing, we can hear from the young people themselves about As many members of this House already know, the the issues that they care about and their advocacy pres- appeal of the game of golf is hard to ignore. During entation as well as forums. We can get inspired by their the 14.5 million rounds of golf played each year, British drive and talent at various entertainment events as well Columbians get to go outdoors and enjoy one of the sim- as sporting competitions. plest, safest and most oft en recommended forms of exer- We can also meet the many people in our community cise, walking. In fact, a round of golf where the player is making a diff erence in the lives of youth. I would like to walking will burn off more than 700 calories. Of course, thank just a few from my constituency: our Burnaby school if you cover as much of the golf course as I do, that could board and trustees, B.C. Adoptive Families Association, be as high as 2,000. Th is is part of the reason that golfers Burnaby Association for Community Inclusion, Burnaby have a mortality rate 40 percent lower than those who Family Life, task force against sexual exploitation, Rotary don't exercise. Club clothing drive, Masjid al-Salaam and Education Th e golf industry is present and is locally owned and Centre, Do What U Luv group and, of course, business- operated in every community, and in British Columbia es like UVANU, in the House today, that are sowing into it contributes $1.6 billion to the province's gross domes- our community. tic product. Directly and indirectly, golf employs almost Wherever Youth Week is celebrated, the idea behind it 47,000 British Columbians, including substantial num- is all the same. As the member for Surrey–Green Timbers bers of youth. Over 43 percent of those employed by the has taught me, our job as a society should be no less than Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3295

to shower our young people with love and give each and clients around the world. Th ey are independent, pas- every one of them an equal shot at life. sionate about their work and the animals on which they depend and aren't prone to creating professional associa- JOSH DUECK tions or bodies, so the impact of their work on local rural communities can be overlooked as people in government Michelle Stilwell: With the fl owers in full bloom and focus on megaprojects. the sun shining outside today, I'd like to take a moment Th e value-added nature of their work is extremely im- to go back to the snow in the mountains of Sochi. Last portant. For example, the diff erence between skinning, month British Columbia's Josh Dueck earned the priv- salting and drying a hide for export…. It can run in the ilege of being Canada's fl ag-bearer for the closing cere- $350 range, whereas a full, life-size mount of the animal monies of the 2014 Paralympics. can bring up to $7,000, depending on the species. Th at [1400] is why taxidermists are concerned about the ability of Josh won gold and silver as a sit-skier during the games. non-residents to take dozens of hides with them under A former freestyle skier, Josh became a paraplegic in one export permit to be worked on by taxidermists in March of 2004 aft er he broke his neck trying to execute another country. a fl ip. Ten years later he was standing on the podium in Th ere is also a problem with the time it takes for local Sochi. Th at dedication deserves to be recognized. taxidermists to get export permits for a client — two- to I know Josh personally through many diff erent av- three-month waits due to backlogged permitting in the enues throughout our sporting career, and I can honestly provincial offi ce. Th is discourages non-resident hunt- say that he has a well-deserved reputation for pushing the ers from using local taxidermists. Business has been lost. limits and leaving nothing behind on the course or in life. Taxidermists I have spoken with have some simple Some of you might have heard of Josh in 2012 when he solutions to these issues. Th ey just need to be listened earned that worldwide notoriety for becoming the fi rst to. If that happens, then all of us living in rural areas will sit-skier to perform a backfl ip. share in the benefi ts. It takes an incredible amount of courage to face your fears and to push your body to succeed at something that STAN ROGERS no one has ever done before. But let's not confuse that confi dence with recklessness. Josh has become a sup- J. Martin: Legacy — the life of Stan Rogers is the very porter of workplace safety and a champion of accessibility personifi cation of that word. He passed away suddenly in sport. He is a role model to many and someone who on April 16 at the age of 65 due to a heart attack, but that demonstrates the importance of preparation and training. is not why Stan Rogers will be remembered in Chilliwack To be a world-class athlete you must make sacrifi ces. and across the province. Stanley Douglas Rogers was a I know, from my experience, that having a supportive visionary, a community builder and a developer with family is a huge help, and I know that Josh appreciates a tireless work ethic. He had a generous heart and did the support he gets from his family and friends. I hope everything possible for his family, his community and Josh can also get a boost from knowing that he has the his church. support of British Columbians, including the members Th at is why I rise in the House today to recognize the of this House. legacy of Stan Rogers. He spent 18 years growing Rogers Foods before spending the next 24 years in property de- TAXIDERMISTS AND velopment, most recently as the founder and president EXPORT PERMIT PROCESS of Legacy Pacifi c Land Corp. Th rough the course of his life, Stan generously volun- D. Donaldson: Th ey are small business people, they teered his time and expertise to numerous community are mainly in rural areas of the province, they depend and non-profi t organizations, seeking to better the lives of on good stewardship of our natural systems, and they people in his community. He worked with the Premier's are artists who deal in still life, quite literally. I'm talking Economic Advisory Council, B.C. Trade Development about taxidermists in this province. Th ere is estimated Corporation, B.C. Food Processors Association, the to be about 200 of these small business people across chamber of commerce and Rotary, among so many B.C., with many being in rural communities, close to others. where the animals on which they depend can be found. [1405] In Smithers-Telkwa alone there are four taxidermy busi- Most importantly, he was a father, a husband, an ad- nesses, all owned and operated by longtime community viser and a dear friend to so many. His legacy in our com- members. munity is immeasurable, which explains why some 700 Taxidermists off er a value-added service that keeps people attended his celebration of life last week. money in local communities. Th ey are highly skilled I would ask us to keep Stan's wife, Anita; his sons craft smen and artists with their services in demand from Collin, Cameron and Corbin; and each of their families 3296 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

in our thoughts and prayers. reduction of speech pathologists, teachers, teacher- librarians and teaching assistants — people who provide PINE FREE CLINIC basic services to students. Does the Premier not agree with me that these short- D. Eby: More than 40 years ago an innovative new falls and the resulting cuts will dramatically aff ect stu- medical clinic opened. Operating out of a ten- by 20- dents' ability to succeed and seek opportunity in their foot trailer, the Pine Free Clinic was a Vancouver fi rst lives, whatever path they choose? in providing free, confi dential care for young people. Since that remarkable start decades ago the clinic hasn't Hon. C. Clark: We have to support young people in slowed down. Th ey're now based on West 4th Avenue, school. We have to make sure that we are making the and they've become Kitsilano's public health care heart, investment that they deserve so that they can, each of six days a week, all day and aft er regular working hours. them, fulfi l their tremendous potential in the province. Th ree regular nurses, two front-desk staff , a counsellor We need to do that for them. We owe them a duty as an- and a rotating team of part-time doctors, all with a spe- other generation to make sure we're supporting them. cial interest in working with youth, call the clinic home. Equally, we need to do it for us, because it's those Th ey take their youth-centred mandate very seriously. young people that will guarantee the future of every cit- "Youth have enough to worry about with their health izen of British Columbia. You cannot build an economy issues without worrying about being judged by a room- without people who are skilled and ready to be able to ful of other people," said a former nurse. take on those jobs. Th e employees at the clinic are paid on salary, giving Th at's why we are continuing to make historic invest- them the chance to spend extra time with scared, con- ments in secondary and post-secondary education in fused young people who are looking for medical and, British Columbia. That's why we've continued to see sometimes, life assistance. Youth from all over the Lower improved results in districts and in demographics all Mainland come for over 12,000 clinic visits each year. across the province. We have much, much more to do. While keeping young people at the centre of every- We need to make sure that we are aligning our spending thing they do, this clinic has also taken the "free" in its and our investment in the right places and spending it name literally, expanding its mandate to serve those left as well as we can. out of our health care system. For example, the Pine Free But one of the untold stories about education in British Clinic off ers, of course, free services to refugees not cov- Columbia is that we do it here almost better than any- ered by MSP. In fact, anyone who doesn't have an MSP where else in the world. We should be very, very proud card or insurance can come in for treatment. By provid- of that, and it's as a result of government's long-term ing care for those that nobody else will, the clinic fi lls an commitment and historic funding to our system that essential public health niche in preventing the transmis- that's true. sion of infections and diseases that would otherwise go untreated and undiagnosed. Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on Th e recent announcement that this decades-old clin- a supplemental. ic will close has been met with shock and disbelief. [1410] Countless former patients have shared stories about how Pine provided them with knowledge and care that they A. Dix: Th e success we have in our public schools is desperately needed as young people. Former staff are about teachers and parents and students and support baffl ed that such a fi xture of public health in the Lower workers who deliver every day in spite of a government Mainland could be seen as a cost liability instead of a that consistently shows it doesn't care about public edu- cost saver. cation. Working together, we can save the Pine Free Clinic, be- Maybe the Premier can explain this — or the Minister cause although it has been 40 years, it is just as innovative of Health, because they're doing it in Kamloops too. and essential now as it was when it fi rst opened in 1972. Maybe the Premier can explain this, because the govern- ment seems angry. Oral Questions Perhaps it's not the government that is losing access to speech pathologists. Perhaps it's not the government SCHOOL DISTRICT FUNDING FOR that's losing access to learning assistants. Perhaps it's not SPECIALIZED SUPPORT SERVICES the government that's losing access to its shop teach- AND TEACHING POSITIONS ers. Perhaps it's not the government that's seeing more students in classrooms. Perhaps it's not the government A. Dix: My question is for the Premier. Across British who has a special needs student who needs support. But Columbia school districts this week are facing budgets parents do and students do, and this government is let- that as a result of shortfalls, will lead to the layoff and ting them down. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3297

Announcements aside, does the Premier agree with ment's incompetent hydro rate policies that are costing me that laying off speech pathologists, teachers, support money in public education this year, but…. workers and those that support those with special needs is bad for public education in B.C. and that it's the gov- Interjections. ernment's policies that have directed us in that direction? A. Dix: Th ere they go again, hon. Speaker. Th ey don't Hon. C. Clark: I'll say this. Th e member is right about want to hear about it. Th ey don't want to hear about the this part of it. It is parents, students, teachers, administra- government's policies leading to the laying off of teachers tors and support workers that make our education system and speech pathologists. At a time when students need great. Th at is absolutely true. outstanding education more than ever, they are being let My father devoted his life as a public school teach- down by their government. er in Burnaby to supporting young people and making Th ose parents, those teachers and those students are sure that they could fulfi l every bit of potential that they being let down by their government. How is it good for had in their lives and that they had the support and the public education in school district 23, apparently repre- foundation, the building blocks, of a great public educa- sented by the Premier, to cut $70 in per-pupil funding tion to get there. every year that they have to fi nd in the classroom — per The member's question, though, was about wheth- student? How does that make it better? How does that er government is continuing to fund education. I am increase the possibility of going from learner to earner? happy to report that, indeed, government is continuing [1415] to fund education — at record levels, no less — in British Columbia. Th e average per-pupil operating grant during Hon. C. Clark: Well, as is oft en the case, the reality the school year is the highest level at $8,654 per student. diff ers quite diff erently from the member's perception Th at's a 36 percent increase over 2001. Over the past 13 of it here in British Columbia. B.C. students rank No. 1 years we've increased annual funding by $1 billion. Th at's of any province in the country in reading and science over a period of time where the number of students in and are second only to Quebec in math, according to the system has declined by 70,000 overall. the OECD data. Can we continue to do better? Absolutely. Th at's why How did we get there? How did we get to amongst the this week we've announced how we want to re-engineer best results of anyplace in Canada and amongst the best our secondary and post-secondary system and create a results of anywhere in the world? It's because we have new blueprint for the future to make sure that we can historically high levels of funding per student across continue to produce the graduates, the young people who the province. It's because class sizes in British Columbia can fulfi l every ounce of potential that they can. haven't gone up, on average, since 2001. It's because we are the only jurisdiction across the country that tracks Madame Speaker: I recognize the Leader of the class sizes consistently across the province. It's because Opposition on a supplemental. we have some of the richest data by which we can track how well students are doing, through our FSA tests, all A. Dix: Almost 2,000 specialized teachers lost in the across the province. time of this government. I mean, in the Premier's own We track it, we look at the outcomes, and we ensure riding, for every dollar they add, they take $3 away. Th e that they continue to improve. For example, when you result of that is…. look at the number of special needs students that are graduating, it's increased by 166 percent. Th e number Interjections. of aboriginal students who are graduating increased by 103 percent. A. Dix: You know, it's not students in grade 4. It's not We're very proud of those results. We get them because students in grade 4. we measure, we track results, we change what we're do- ing based on the results so that we are always striving to Interjections. do better, and we continue to make huge investments, on behalf of the people of this province, in the future of this Madame Speaker: Members. province in our education system.

A. Dix: Th ey don't want to hear this because they're R. Fleming: I think what we've learned is that the contemptuous of parents and teachers in public educa- Premier's defi nition of huge increases is fi ve years of tion. Th eir contempt was shown in the evidence before frozen funding to the operating grants of education in the B.C. Supreme Court. Th at's where their contempt British Columbia. Th e ministry's own data shows that was shown. B.C.'s public schools lost 340 classroom teachers last year. It wasn't a child in grade 4 that caused the govern- Th is year, despite B.C. student enrolment projecting to 3298 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

grow, school boards are being forced to cut 350 more Hon. P. Fassbender: I've already spoken about the teachers and teaching assistants. investments we've made in all-day kindergarten, in the Th is government has lost twice in the Supreme Court learning improvement fund to help with special needs over the class-size issue. Th ere are 16,000 classrooms in throughout the province. I also recognize that we have B.C. currently over the limits, and next September it will clearly said that what's important in this province is that only get worse for returning students because of provin- we make the right choices within a fi scal framework that's cial funding shortfalls. Parents across B.C. are worried, going to ensure the integrity of our educational system. understandably, about their kids' education as they learn But $1 billion a year since 2001 invested in education is about cuts to teachers; to school libraries; to supports for a signifi cant proof of this government's commitment to kids with special needs, kids who are learning English. education. When will the Minister of Education assume his re- I challenge the boards around the province every time sponsibility for taking resources out of B.C.'s classroom I speak to them to work with us, to fi nd the ways to en- and start working with school districts so that our kids sure that they balance their budgets and maintain the have the very best education system and chances in life priorities of a quality education. We work with teachers, instead of it getting worse under this budget? we work with parents, and we work with students to ul- timately ensure the positive outcomes that the Premier's Hon. P. Fassbender: Well, the members opposite com- already spoken about. plain about what's wrong with education. Th e Premier has clearly articulated what's right with it. Number one, S. Robinson: Can the minister recommend which the outcomes in British Columbia are the best in the of these positions should be cut so that the Coquitlam country and recognized around the world. school district can balance its budget: three psycholo- Let's talk about investment. All-day kindergarten to gists, four speech and language pathologists, two behav- give children a great start on their education — $120 iour specialists, two counsellors, fi ve youth workers, 27 million invested in all-day kindergarten. We have also class-size and learning support teachers, 27 educational invested in a learning improvement fund that has hired and teaching assistants or 38 teacher-librarians? In fact, 500 more teachers, that has hired 400 more educational there is no choice. Coquitlam is being forced to cut every assistants, that has allowed for more hours of educational single one of these positions. assistants in classrooms. Th e results speak for themselves. Melissa Hyndes, the chair of the Coquitlam school district, said: "Minister, you have asked us to tighten our Madame Speaker: Victoria–Swan Lake on a supple- belt. In Coquitlam the belt is around our neck, and we mental. are sucking air." Maybe the minister can suggest what members of this R. Fleming: Th e minister can make up reality all he House should tell the parents of children who will lose wants. Th e current reality in communities…. support services that they depend on because of this [1420] government's downloading and chronic underfunding.

Interjections. Hon. P. Fassbender: When you look at the budget for education in this province, $5.7 billion is invested in a Madame Speaker: Th e members will come to order. quality education that's proving results. I recognize that school districts have choices to make, as does this gov- R. Fleming: I think members across the way should ernment. We work with them every single day. We sup- listen to it, because these are communities they represent. port them through programs like all-day kindergarten, Th e reality is that in places like Delta and Maple Ridge, like our early learning supports that we provide. I know school districts are planning to cut supports for children that every district in this province is committed to learn- who are learning English and children with special needs. ing outcomes for students, as we are on this side of the Maple Ridge has seen the number of special needs stu- House. dents increase by 16 percent since 2008. In Delta the number of English language learners has increased by 10 Madame Speaker: The member for Coquitlam- percent. And just as more kids need government's help, Maillardville on a supplemental. this government is forcing school districts into funding shortfalls. S. Robinson: If the minister maybe got out to a few of Can the Minister of Education explain to his col- those budget meetings, he would see that there were ab- leagues as well as to parents in Delta and Maple Ridge solutely no choices. Th is is not about choices. why his government is cutting supports for their chil- Kyle Parker is a grade 12 Coquitlam student who uses dren and taking away their chance to do their very best his iPad to communicate. Kyle says his speech patholo- in school and get a job in the future? gist, his skill development teachers and educational as- Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3299

sistants are helping him to graduate with his peers. All I recognize the good work that the Burnaby school three of these positions are being cut next year. district does on behalf of the children in their school [1425] district. I acknowledged that yesterday. I recognize that Kyle is one of the lucky ones, as he will graduate this they're looking at their budget, as we've had to. Th e rea- year with the skills he needs to be successful, but those son this government has brought in a balanced budget, who come aft er him will not get the same opportunities has made hard decisions, is to protect the interests of because of this government's decisions. How is this situa- every single taxpayer. tion acceptable to this minister? I suspect that the Burnaby school district should be doing exactly the same thing, which they are. Hon. P. Fassbender: As this government moves for- ward in our educational programs, I want to remind the RELEASE OF REPORT ON INVESTIGATION members opposite as well that since 2001, this govern- INTO EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION ment has invested $238 million for capital and seismic AT KWANTLEN UNIVERSITY upgrade programs in this province. We have continued to invest in programs for early D. Eby: Th e Minister of Advanced Education told this learning. I have said it already: all-day kindergarten has House that the government's report on their investigation absolutely changed the landscape for young learners as into executive compensation at Kwantlen University was they enter the system. "due sometime in mid-April." We continue to focus on learning outcomes. We do the It's April 30. Where's the report? best. We continue to be a leader in the world, and that is [1430] because of the hard work of the teachers in the classroom and the commitment of this government to continue to Hon. A. Virk: Th e member opposite was clearly at the fund education at record levels. announcement yesterday. He was standing in the back, and none too happy with the fact that we're making gen- BURNABY SCHOOL DISTRICT erational changes in post-secondary education. COSTS AND FUNDING At the risk of sounding repetitive, that's the same ques- tion that has been posed, I believe, perhaps about 30 K. Corrigan: Madame Speaker, the Burnaby school times in a row. Th e report is forthcoming. It should be district is doing everything right. It has among the low- delivered to the Minister of Finance in due order. est administrative costs in the province, stable enrolment, generates signifi cant revenue from its international stu- REPORTING OF EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION dents and other programs. It's a leader in innovation AT KWANTLEN UNIVERSITY and has forged many partnerships. Despite being extra- ordinarily well run, this district is being forced to make D. Eby: Let's try a question that the minister may have up a shortfall by cutting $3 million in services and pro- more luck with. grams next year. Th is week we obtained an off er of employment letter Th at means next fall class sizes will increase. Th ere are for a vice-president at Kwantlen. In addition to $170,000 going to be cuts to aboriginal education, cuts to custod- in salary, she was off ered an additional $50,000 in con- ians, cuts to learning resources and major cuts to adult sulting fees, a $50,000 moving allowance, a $20,000 re- education — to name just a few. search allowance and "a housing loan," the details of Yesterday the minister acknowledged that Burnaby which are to be negotiated. school district is "doing a great job" and "running a tight The total compensation for this VP significantly ship." If well-run districts like Burnaby are doing every- breaks the government's salary cap rule for the Kwantlen thing possible to keep costs low and generate revenue yet president, let alone a vice-president. Now, we've raised are still being forced to make millions of dollars worth this vice-president's consulting fees before, and the min- of cuts, how can the minister and the Premier claim that ister said that they were previous to her employment at this government is adequately investing in the future of Kwantlen, yet here they are included in her off er of em- British Columbia's children? ployment. Has the minister any explanation for how this hap- Hon. P. Fassbender: For the member from Burnaby, I pened while he was the vice-chair of the board at would like to maybe bring some facts to the table. I know Kwantlen? they're hard to understand, but let me be very clear. In 2001 and 2002 the per-pupil funding in the Burnaby Hon. A. Virk: Once again, at the risk of sounding even school district was $5,926. In 2013-2014 it is $7,877. Now, more repetitive, the report that has been asked for by the I want to help the member from Burnaby recognize that Minister of Finance is due shortly, and we'll be able to re- that is a 32.9 percent increase. port accordingly. 3300 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

CONSULTATION ON CHANGES Hon. N. Letnick: Well, 40 years ago, when the ALR TO AGRICULTURAL LAND RESERVE was brought in and ever since then, there's been con- sultation all the way through. In 2010 the chair of the N. Simons: Last Wednesday the Agriculture Minister Agricultural Land Commission went out and consulted said that people around the province would get a chance throughout British Columbia and produced a report. At to weigh in on the future of the agricultural land reserve. the same time, the Auditor General went through and He said that all options were on the table, "from amend- provided a report. Successive Agriculture ministers ing the bill to leaving it alone to removing the bill." Now, have gone around and toured the province, including something happened, because this week, on Monday, he this one, and provided some information back to caucus said that the bill would be "passed prior to the end of this and colleagues in cabinet as to what to do with farming legislative session." and agriculture. My question is to the Premier. First of all, who's in In the last few months we've seen that continue, and in charge, and can she tell this House if there will in fact the last few weeks I've received hundreds and hundreds be real consultation with the public prior to changes be- of letters, which I have gone through and read. Actually, ing made to the way we protect agricultural land in this I was there last night and reading some more letters. Th ey province? continue to come in. It's very important to me to understand the pros and Hon. N. Letnick: Th ank you to the member opposite cons of the legislation. I'm getting that. I understand for the question. there are many people who support the legislation, and Th e key thing to remember here is that the legislation why. I also understand there are many people who have was introduced to help sustain the farming sector and issues with the legislation. But notwithstanding any of those who work in it. Th e main principles of the legisla- that, if anybody else has a particular point of view, I'm tion — which of course, due to House rules, I can't speak willing to hear it. I'm open to hearing it and would en- to or debate right now — are to help farmers grow their courage hearing it. Th ey should send me letters, and I'll businesses and earn a better living, to support farming continue working on it. families to continue to produce food on our land and, also, to ensure that the Agricultural Land Commission BAN ON SALE OF FLAVOURED TOBACCO is independent in its decision-making process. We have worked hard to make sure, over the years, J. Darcy: Tobacco kills over 6,000 British Columbians that that has happened, so much so that we now see we every year; 30,000 young people in British Columbia will have results of nearly $11.7 billion in gross income for begin smoking this year. Yet our tobacco legislation in the year 2012. We're heading for 2017 at $14 billion in British Columbia does not protect youth from the harm- revenue. We see improvements in the amount of money going for meat inspection systems. We see improvements, ful eff ects of nicotine and tobacco. $6.5 million, for greenhouse carbon tax relief. We have Today tobacco companies are carrying out a slick and about $900,000 a year in lift for the Agricultural Land very aggressive marketing campaign, marketing fruit- Commission — all of this to help sustain and improve and candy-fl avoured tobacco products to young people, farming throughout British Columbia. and unfortunately, it is working. Over half of tobacco users in British Columbia who are young have used fl a- Madame Speaker: Powell River–Sunshine Coast on voured tobacco, and it oft en serves as a gateway to life- a supplemental. long cigarette smoking. In order to protect young people from the serious risks N. Simons: An interesting answer, just not to the ques- of smoking, we need commitment from this government. tion I asked. My question was about consultation. Th e Cancer Society in British Columbia has called for a Th e Agriculture Minister promised provincewide con- ban on fl avoured tobacco. Ontario and Alberta have al- sultation and said that all options were open. Th en we ready instituted such a ban. Th e Health Minister said in fi nd out that the minister means, when he says consulta- January: "We…" tion…. He says: "Th e consultation piece from the public is when I sit down and go through my personal stories Madame Speaker: Pose your question, Member. that people off er to me." Will the people of the province actually get a chance J. Darcy: "…certainly have the commitment to correct to consult and to provide input to the minister, and does this problem, because the last thing we want are young the Premier agree that consultation, according to this people being turned on to smoking." Minister of Agriculture, means sitting down and read- Will the Minister of Health commit today to banning ing his e-mails? the sale of fl avoured tobacco, as Ontario and Alberta [1435] have already done? Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3301

Hon. T. Lake: Th ank you to the member opposite for Petitions the question, and thank you for your concern and your genuine concern about young people and smoking — a G. Holman: I'd like to present a petition gathered by concern that I share. the Canadian Federation of University Women in my I think every member in this House agrees that we constituency, 165 signatures calling for the adoption must do everything we can to reduce the incidence of of a comprehensive poverty reduction plan in British smoking in the province of British Columbia, particular- Columbia. ly among young people. Th at is why we have among the most restrictive legislation in terms of marketing ciga- J. Th ornthwaite: I, too, have a petition to present from rettes. Th ey are hidden from view. We have an aggressive the Canadian Federation of University Women. I have enforcement campaign to ensure that young people do 36 signatures from the area of the North Shore on pov- not smoke cigarettes. erty as well. We have said that we will work with the federal gov- ernment. I've sent two letters to the federal minister on Orders of the Day this issue, and I've also said that if the federal govern- Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, Committee of ment does not take action, we will take action. We are Supply — for the information of members — the Ministry updating our tobacco control strategy. Th e members op- of Education will be followed by, eventually, the Ministry posite I know will agree that the biggest single thing you of Social Development. In this chamber, committee stage can do to reduce smoking is to increase the cost of smok- debate on Bill 19, the Animal Health Act, is to be fol- ing, something we have already done, and we will always lowed thereaft er by committee stage debate on Bill 20. continue to look at ways and means of reducing the inci- dence of smoking, particularly among young people, in Committee of the Whole House the province of British Columbia. BILL 19 — ANIMAL HEALTH ACT [End of question period.] (continued)

Tabling Documents Th e House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 19; D. Horne in the chair. D. Eby: I rise to tender an offer letter for a vice- president at Kwantlen University. Th e committee met at 2:45 p.m.

Leave granted. On section 6 (continued).

Motions Without Notice N. Simons: On the advice of the former Agriculture Minister behind me here, I believe we've completed sec- MEMBERSHIP OF tion 6. SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES Sections 6 to 10 inclusive approved. Hon. M. de Jong: By leave, I move the following: [Scott Hamilton, MLA be appointed as a Member of the Select On section 11. Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs, replacing Hon. Norm Letnick, MLA; N. Simons: Th e question I have relates to the tempor- Dr. Moira Stilwell, MLA be appointed as a Member of the Select ary licensing. According to the act, the chief vet can issue Standing Committee on Health, replacing Hon. Norm Letnick, MLA; and a temporary licence, with or without conditions, that's John Yap, MLA be appointed as a Member of the Select Standing valid for no more than three months. Section 11(2)(e) al- Committee on Public Accounts, replacing Hon. Norm Letnick, lows for the chief vet to "issue the licence or permit with MLA.] or without terms or conditions." [1440] My question, really, is just around what the need is for I've provided an advance copy to the offi cial oppos- a temporary licence when a regular licence can be issued ition. for a temporary period. In other words, the authority of 11(2)(e) covers what apparently is permitted in 11(2)(d). Leave granted. Th e Chair: I understand the member for Richmond- Motion approved. Steveston wishes to make an introduction. 3302 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

Introductions by Members again that question as well.

J. Yap: Earlier this aft ernoon I introduced to the House N. Simons: Off to a fl ying start here, aren't we? a group of 41 students and three teachers from France. Section (3)(a) and (b), "Before taking an administra- Th ey now have arrived, and I wonder if members could tive action, the chief veterinarian must provide to the join me in welcoming them to the province of British operator (a) a written notice stating," and then there are Columbia and to our Legislature. four more subsections to that, and "(b) a reasonable op- portunity to respond, in writing…." I'm just asking about Debate Continued the delay that section (3)(a) and (b) could cause in taking an administrative action. Hon. T. Lake: Th e temporary licence would be in situ- ations where there's a time-limited activity. For instance, Hon. T. Lake: Th ese are licensing administrative ac- a one-day horse sale would be an example of a tempor- tions. Th is section doesn't really refer to disease control, ary licence or permit. but it's to provide administrative fairness. So if the chief When it says "without terms or conditions," a "term" veterinarian is telling an operator to do something, there here does not refer to a time span. It refers to the rules has to be some fairness in giving the operator a chance under which the permit is issued, the terms and condi- to respond. tions. Th at "terms and conditions" phrase refers to the rules that the licensee or permittee has to follow. N. Simons: Can the minister tell us to whom the chief veterinarian reports to? Section 11 approved. Hon. T. Lake: Joining us today is our chief veterinary On section 12. offi cer, Dr. Jane Pritchard, who is behind me and sup- porting us today. Dr. Pritchard, as the chief veterinary N. Simons: It's a similar question. Sort of the same offi cer, reports to the Minister of Agriculture. question applies. Th e chief vet can "do anything under section 11 (2)" with regard to registration, so is there a Section 14 approved. similar explanation as to why that's added here? On section 15. Hon. T. Lake: Sorry, I'm not understanding the ques- tion. N. Simons: In this section 15: "(4) Th e chief veterin- arian must provide written reasons for an action taken Th e Chair: Can the member repeat the question? under subsection (3)…and a person may not request [1450] further reconsideration." My question really relates to whether or not there's any further review provided any- N. Simons: Okay. Well, my understanding of the legis- where else in the legislation. lation is that the chief vet is permitted to do essentially [1455] everything under section 11 with respect to registration. Perhaps the minister can explain why the need for sep- Hon. T. Lake: These decisions are on applications arate…. for licences, including fur farms, game farms, livestock I might be getting myself confused here, which would dealer, livestock agent, public sale yard, slaughterhouse. not be the fi rst time, I would add, in case anyone would Th ose are examples of the licences that are issued under suggest that. I'm sure the minister is likely to. Perhaps if the Animal Health Act. that question isn't clear…. Perhaps it doesn't make sense, Th e chief veterinarian, then, would make a decision. and I'll follow up later. So we'll go on. If that decision was in the negative, the applicant would have the ability to request a reconsideration, and then Sections 12 and 13 approved. the chief veterinarian must, as the member outlines, provide written responses to that reapplication or that On section 14. reconsideration. At the end of the day, the chief veterinarian and the N. Simons: Th e inclusion of subsections (3)(a) and (b), ministry work with the applicant to try to overcome any subject to retest, the inclusion of the subsections could obstacles that they may have in terms of meeting the re- potentially lead to delays in taking administrative action. quirements. But if at the end of the day, aft er reconsider- Is that something that the minister has contemplated? ation, the request is denied, then there is no recourse.

Th e Chair: Perhaps the member could repeat once N. Simons: Just to clarify, to make sure that I'm clear Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3303

on this, aft er considering a request for reconsideration, Commissioner herself: the chief veterinarian may take, as applicable, one or "Th e bill will prevent public access to information about animal more of the actions described. But then it seems to me disease reporting and testing by exempting information collected in the administration of the Animal Health Act from the access- that there's almost like.... It seems a bit unfair in terms of to-information provisions of the Freedom of Information and administrative fairness that an important decision like Protection of Privacy Act, FIPPA. As a result, journalists, citizens this would not be allowed to be presented again for an and researchers would never be able to examine the manner in opportunity for reconsideration. which government is managing its responsibilities under this new act." Does it appear to the minister that it's somewhat Could the minister perhaps provide clarifi cation and abrupt that a person's access to reconsideration is some- explanation if that's not in fact true? what limited? Hon. T. Lake: Under section 16 the categories of infor- Hon. T. Lake: Historically, we have not run into a situ- mation that are protected are outlined in section 16(1)(a) ation where this was a problem for applicants. At the end through (f). Th ere is a balance that needs to be struck to of the day, there is a reconsideration that is considered in ensure that the public has information and the right to this legislation, but having gone through that process, the information and also the necessary protection of public applicant obviously is owed a decision, and that decision health, as well as protection of the producer and the in- is then made. It's not a never-ending process. dustry involved. Th ese are yearly applications, so if there was a concern Th e fact is that people's livelihoods are at stake — not that the applicant had that they could not overcome, they just on an individual basis but on a provincewide and, in certainly could address that and apply for that licence in fact, nationwide basis — if this information is to be dis- the following year. closed at the wrong or inopportune time. Having said that, section 25 of FIPPA says that infor- Section 15 approved. mation has to be released if it's in the public interest, and that's why section 16(2) is there — to refl ect that manda- On section 16. tory release of information by the minister, if it is in the public interest. N. Simons: Th is is clearly one of the sections that has caused the most consternation among individuals who N. Simons: Obviously, the livelihoods of our farmers are independent and who consider issues around pri- and ranchers and food producers are essential. But at the vacy and personal privacy and protection of information. same time, so is the right of the public to be informed of Can the minister explain the rationale behind section 16, issues that impact them and actions that their govern- how it relates to or how it may compare with other legis- ment is taking on their behalf. lation in other provinces and whether or not in fact the In the words of Elizabeth Denham: restrictions on the access to information by the Privacy "Government proposes this broad exemption despite the care- Commissioner are diff erent here than in other provinces? fully balanced set of access-to-information provisions and exemp- [1500] tions already present in FIPPA which protect both the public's right to know and a person's legitimate business interests and right to privacy. Th is balance is the result of policy and legislative Hon. T. Lake: I know this is a section that did cause decisions originally adopted by unanimous vote of the Legislature some concern the last time the legislation was presented. and fi ne-tuned over FIPPA's 20-year history." I think at that time it was explained. So I'll explain again [1505] the necessity of having confi dence in the system to en- Can the minister explain how he believes that the sure that producers are supplying information that would Privacy Commissioner is incorrect, that this balance is protect the public health and protect the health of the not the correct balance and that, in fact, further protec- industry. When reporting information related to animal tions of the public are required through better access to disease, it's really critical that government have that in- information? formation quickly and accurately in order to take the ne- cessary steps to contain any spread of disease. Hon. T. Lake: Under the FIPPA act in B.C., informa- Section 16 was not done lightly by any stretch of the tion supplied to government can only be protected under imagination. It mirrors very closely what the federal gov- the following criteria. Th at's, fi rst of all, that the infor- ernment policy is and is similar to other jurisdictions like mation is scientifi c or technical in nature. Secondly, the Ontario, whereby this information is protected to ensure information is submitted in confi dence to government. the confi dence of producers to submit information ne- Th ose two are reasonable and easily met. Th e third re- cessary to prevent the spread of disease. lates to information in commercial or fi nancial situations of a third party where it's believed that undue fi nancial N. Simons: According to the Offi ce of the Information loss or gain could arise from the release of the informa- Privacy Commissioner — in fact, the Privacy tion or that similar information would not be supplied 3304 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

to government when it is in the public interest to receive N. Simons: Well, it's a laudable goal, I know, but I won- such information. der if in fact there are incidents of fi sh farms sending test Th at, I guess, is the crux of it. Th e fi rst two can be met. samples to U.S. labs or other labs where they have not been Th e last criteria can be diffi cult to meet to the satisfaction also sent to British Columbia labs. Is this the issue at hand? of those people that are interpreting FIPPA, and that is, Is the issue that it's happened in the past that the chief vet- essentially, the concern — that producers that read FIPPA erinarian offi cer did not get informed of a disease? I'm just don't have the confi dence necessary to understand that looking for examples and less of the hypothetical what-ifs. that information critical to their business, to their liveli- How is this justifi ed by what's happened already? hood and to the industry would not be released. Government needs to ensure the confi dence of the in- Hon. T. Lake: Th is is, in fact, what had happened in dustry and the producers. If they feel like the informa- the past, so it is an example of what would continue to tion is not going to be held confi dential, the result will be happen if we did not instil confi dence in the industry in lack of information submitted and a lack of an ability to the confi dentiality of the information submitted. Th is is react to an outbreak of a disease, whether it's an animal why it is so critical that we have the confi dence of indus- disease or potentially a human disease. try in terms of confi dentiality — so that we can take ac- One of the prime goals of this legislation is to pre- tion immediately when there is a suspected disease that vent the spread of disease and protect individual pro- needs to be controlled. ducers, protect industry and protect public health, so it is absolutely critical that the confi dence of producers to N. Simons: Is there an example of an industry not re- submit samples is maintained. Th at is why we have done porting to the province because they're afraid that the this, and that is why the federal government has a simi- province will disclose the information publicly? lar legislative approach in their legislation as well and, also, why we respect section 25 of FIPPA, where it is in Hon. T. Lake: I apologize if I wasn't clear in my last the public interest that that information can be released answer. Yes, in the fi sh farm industry this is what has hap- by the minister. pened, because under the existing legislative framework we have, there is a lack of confi dence that the informa- N. Simons: Can the minister provide any evidence that tion will be held confi dential. the current system in place is incapable of protecting the interests of farmers and the public? N. Simons: So fi sh farms had notifi able, reportable diseases, and the government found out that they didn't Hon. T. Lake: Certainly, what we have found in the report it, and somehow we're left with legislation to ad- experience to date is that when producers do not have dress their concerns. It seems to me that the minister confi dence in the system, they will submit anonymized has said that they didn't report it because the protection samples, so they can't be tracked back to the place of ori- of that information would be vulnerable. Now, is that in gin. Or they will send samples out of the country, to the fact the case — that the concern of industry was that they United States, where they feel they have confi dence that wouldn't report to the province before because they were that information will not be released. We lose when that worried that that information would become public be- happens. We lose the ability to react and respond to a po- cause of the actions of government? tential disease outbreak. Hon. T. Lake: My understanding is that information N. Simons: I appreciate the answer. I'm just wonder- was released because of a freedom-of-information re- ing if the minister can provide any examples of that oc- quest. Th at put a chill in the producers' confi dence in curring. submitting samples, so samples were submitted else- [1510] where, leaving the province out of the information loop and out of the loop in terms of protecting the industry, Hon. T. Lake: In fact, what we have had are instances protecting the public. of fi sh farms that would send samples to private labs in Th ere are no examples that I am aware of where a noti- the United States. If there was to be a potential disease fi able or reportable disease was diagnosed elsewhere, associated with those samples, the fi rst time the gov- through this evasion, if you like, of the provincial sys- ernment would hear about it would be when the border tem. But it's certainly not desirable to have a sample closes to those products. You can imagine that that is sent somewhere else and then not have the ability to act not really in the interests of the industry or the province. quickly to limit the spread of any potential disease. Again, I want to stress it's critical that the information get to the provincial veterinarian and to the Ministry of N. Simons: Samples were sent to U.S. labs, informa- Agriculture as quickly as possible in order to protect the tion became public because somehow that information industry and protect the public. was accessed through freedom of information, and the Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3305

government's response is to say: "Don't do that again. If tion where that disclosure could be harmful to the busi- you report to us, we won't tell anyone." Is that essential- ness interests of a third party." ly it? "Don't worry. You can tell us. Don't keep sending Th at's just one angle. Th e other possibility is that we your stuff to the U.S. Don't send it to private labs. Just do have independent scientists, as well, in this province. send it to us, because we have this cone of silence here I think we as the public rely on a number of tiered con- in the ministry." trols and checks and balances, as it were. [1515] My concern is that perhaps everything gets funnelled into a system where that information becomes fair- Hon. T. Lake: What we're saying to industry is: "We ly secret. I do think that the Information and Privacy understand why you need confi dence in the system." We Commissioner…. It's possible under this act to have at need to create a system in which confi dence is generated least some oversight — not to say that you must release and reinforced in order to protect the public and to pro- this information or not but to provide guidance and tect the agricultural industry here in British Columbia. advice from her experience, or from the experience of Under the current regime that confi dence was eroded. someone fi lling that position, that we are in fact taking Th erefore, other measures were taken by industry so that the concerns of the general public and their right to know they would not take the risk of information being released. into consideration as well. Now, when the member says: "Don't worry about it. We're I'm wondering if the examples that the minister pro- not going to do anything with it. We're not going to release vided with respect to fi sh farms were provided to the this information…." Of course the information is critical. commissioner as an explanation and whether or not that As the member is well aware, this information is critical. So was discussed. when that information comes into the province, if it indi- [1520] cates a notifi able or reportable disease, we can immediately take action which will prevent the spread of disease from Hon. T. Lake: I think when we're comparing British animal to animal or from animal to human. Columbia with other jurisdictions, it's important to Having confi dence in the system is absolutely tanta- understand that some other jurisdictions don't have their mount in this legislation. Without it, the legislation just own veterinary labs, government labs. Th ey will use pri- doesn't work. We've seen examples of this over time in vate labs, and those private labs don't fall under FOIPPA, the agricultural industry, where producers fear that by or a FIPPA type of legislation. coming forward and being open and working with gov- In fact, if a private lab was doing this testing for us ernment to ensure that their animals are disease-free…. here in British Columbia, we wouldn't even have this If they don't have that confi dence, if they fear that infor- discussion, because they wouldn't be subject to FIPPA. mation will be allowed to hurt their business, they will But we have a highly respected veterinary pathology lab not have the confi dence to submit those specimens. in Abbotsford here in British Columbia. Th is section Th e member may be aware of the phrase "Shoot, shov- applies because we are doing that testing in a highly re- el, and shut up." Unfortunately, over the years in agricul- garded government laboratory, and so FIPPA must apply. ture, in places other than British Columbia, we are pretty What we're saying is that under this act, section 16(1) sure that goes on sometimes. Governments around the (a) to (f) protects that information. However, we recog- world, when they're looking at disease control, recognize nize that where it is in the public interest, section 25 of that that happens. So we need to engender confi dence in FIPPA would still apply. producers that that information will be submitted on a We are not trying to prevent the public from knowing confi dential basis, that action will be taken if that infor- information when we know it is in their interest to know it. mation shows that there's a notifi able or reportable dis- But we are trying to instil as much confi dence as humanly ease, and if it is in the interests of the public, then that possible in the agricultural industry to send their samples information will be released under FIPPA. to this highly respected government lab and to know that they will have the confi dence of the confi dentiality of that N. Simons: I accept that explanation. I think it's a lab, rather than sending it out of province or to a private lab- question of balance. It's always a question of balance. oratory where the same high standards don't apply. Perhaps I would err on a diff erent side of that centre line, and that's fair. But it's not really necessarily about my N. Simons: Well, I appreciate that we do have the high- opinion either. est quality of laboratory facilities and that our provincial I wonder. We have other options as well — manda- services must meet very high academic standards. My tory testing. One could provide incentives for the re- question is about the…. Does the chief veterinary offi cer porting of incidents. I haven't put a ton of thought into have complete autonomy in the lab? Can that person set other options, but someone who has is the Information the goals and objectives of that laboratory? And is it ever and Privacy Commissioner, who says that section 21 of subject to government oversight that could infl uence the FIPPA "prevents the disclosure of commercial informa- direction or the focus of its work? 3306 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

Hon. T. Lake: While Dr. Pritchard is very learned and Hon. T. Lake: While we have deep respect for the chief very capable, she's not all-powerful, I understand. Th e Information and Privacy Commissioner, we sometimes laboratory is accredited by the American Association disagree. In fact, it was her adjudicator that allowed re- of Veterinary Laboratory Diagnosticians as well as lease of information that resulted in an erosion of confi - Standards Council of Canada ISO 17025, which pertains dence on the part of producers to submit samples. to diagnostic labs. Th ere is an advisory committee as well. Th ere is an example whereby a ruling of her offi ce, Th ese types of laboratories are highly structured and under the current regime, led to an erosion of confi- regulated in terms of their accreditation purposes. Of dence in the system. Again, what we are trying to do here course, Dr. Pritchard is very involved in the workings of is make sure that confi dence has been baked into this the lab. Th ey have to meet the standards of these two ac- legislation so that we do in fact have the ability to have creditation bodies. the earliest information about notifi able and reportable diseases to protect the public and to protect the industry. N. Simons: Th ank you for that response. I have ab- solutely no doubt of the veracity of your response. My N. Simons: I think that there is the balance of pro- question, though, has to do with the standards that you tecting the rights of industry, and there are obvious, mentioned, the ISO standards. Are there other labs in important concerns. I worry about the erosion of their British Columbia accredited to that degree by those same confi dence in the system. I'm equally concerned about two governing bodies? the erosion of confi dence of the public in the system. [1525] Th at's, I suppose, where that balance needs to be found. Th e commissioner made some recommendations with Hon. T. Lake: I'm informed that we are one of only respect to addressing both her concerns as well as the three veterinary laboratories in Canada that have concerns of government. Th is is where I have the big- gest problem. I don't understand why legislative draft ing the American Association of Veterinary Laboratory couldn't be done in such a way as to accommodate the Diagnosticians accreditation, the other two being vet- learned opinions of all parties and fi nd a way in which erinary colleges at University of Guelph and at Saint- to address those somewhat competing but fundamentally Hyacinthe in Montreal. I'm disappointed to learn that similar concerns. my alma mater of University of Saskatchewan is not one The commissioner suggested, in fact, "…narrow of them that is accredited at this time. exemptions that preserve the jurisdiction of access-to- information legislation by either deeming the informa- N. Simons: Duly noted. Th at's good to know. It's in- tion supplied by farmers to be commercial information teresting. Has that accreditation been ongoing for years? and to have been supplied in confi dence" — as they do Is this an accreditation that's been maintained? Has it in Ontario — "or by narrowly exempting specifi c provi- ever been lost? sions of access-to-information legislation" — as they've done in Alberta. Th e Chair: I think the Chair is allowing a lot of latitude Can the minister tell us if those other jurisdictions' ex- on a section that deals with the protected information, amples were examined and in fact why they might have but I'll let the minister answer the question. been dismissed? [1530] Hon. T. Lake: Well, thank you, hon. Chair. I'm happy to, because we're very proud of our provincial veterinary Hon. T. Lake: No model is exactly the same, because laboratory. It has been accredited for ten years and just each province is a little bit diff erent in terms of the lab- received another fi ve-year accreditation. oratories they have. As I mentioned, in Alberta they don't have a government lab, so their samples are not subject N. Simons: I do appreciate the latitude, once I was to the government FIPPA laws. In fact, if the situation in reminded of it. I do think that there are some concerns. B.C. was the same as Alberta, we wouldn't have the ne- According to the commissioner, and to give her due cessity of this section. attention, obviously…. Th is is a person who's got experi- Ontario is probably closest. The Ontario Animal ence and expertise. She notes that there hasn't been an Health Act is fully exempted from their FIPPA — at least example given to her that has contradicted the purpose the sections comparable to our sections 16(1)(a), (b), (d) of…. Like, there has been not an incident. and (e). And as I mentioned, the federal government I'm trying to fi nd the quote. It's going take me too long, does exempt it as well. and the latitude previously aff orded me will suddenly end. Th is legislation that we are presenting is very, very But I do believe that the minister probably understands similar to legislation federally and similar to legislation my question. If, in fact, the act as it stands hasn't been in Ontario. Th e member is right. It's about balance. It's fundamentally a problem, why make it even stronger? about what is the public interest versus the public right Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3307

to know. Th e minister has the ability to release informa- brings a lot of people into political action — if in fact tion when it is in the public interest. the province has sort of a monopoly over information, We have landed in a place where we feel this gives us if independent scientists don't have access to this infor- the best balance between protecting information as well mation, can we truly be confi dent at all times? Are we as the public's right to know and protecting individuals supposed to go into this sort of a "just trust us" scenario? and their livelihoods, the industry and its livelihood, and public health. So many new emerging diseases are, in fact, Hon. T. Lake: Certainly for research purposes, anonym- those that come from animals to man, and it's critical, ab- ized data can be supplied to any scientists if they make an solutely critical, that we get that information. application for data. But in terms of the information that If you don't have the confi dence, as I mentioned earlier, would track that back to a location or to a person or a pro- that information is not submitted to the government lab- ducer, that is withheld, subject to the legislation that we see oratory. Th e government laboratory is subject to FIPPA, today. So I guess there has to be a level of trust that the gov- whereas a private laboratory is not. ernment is looking aft er the interests of the public. We have to make sure that the producer has the same level I'm not questioning the member or accusing the mem- of confi dence in terms of confi dentiality of the information ber of saying that the people working in our laboratory when supplying it to a government lab as they would outside would be anything but objective. I think I understand of government, which would be the alternative they would the member's concern that there would be a tendency to tend to take if they didn't have that confi dence. protect a certain industry. I think that is an unfounded concern, given the profes- N. Simons: I'm curious as to how industry would pro- sionals that are working in the veterinary laboratory division vide samples to non-accredited laboratories and have of the Ministry of Agriculture and given the accreditation those tests be acceptable to anyone other than the three and the reputation that they rely upon to be accredited. Th ey labs we were talking about that were accredited. Can the are obviously very proud. Th ey're professionals. Th ey're up- minister clarify? held to a very high standard. I can assure the member that there would be no ability or tendency to want to favour any Hon. T. Lake: As I mentioned, the University of particular type of industry when supplying information to Saskatchewan has a veterinary college, a proud institu- government that would protect the public and protect the tion that produces excellent veterinarians. agriculture industry.

N. Simons: And politicians. N. Simons: Th ank you very much for that response. I have scientist relatives who work for various govern- Hon. T. Lake: And politicians. ments, and I would not in any way doubt their sincerity Th ey have an excellent pathology lab, but it is not ac- or their commitment to their work. But I would point credited by the American Association of Veterinary out to the minister: yes, we like to trust governments, Laboratory Diagnosticians. But the Saskatchewan gov- but we also have safeguards that are put in place, includ- ernment would rely upon that information from that lab ing the Representative for Children and Youth, includ- to exercise disease control measures. ing an Auditor General and including an Information [1535] and Privacy Commissioner. I think that a better balance Not every lab has to be accredited to the level that our could have been found. B.C. lab is, but the information is still credible. Th e gov- As a member of the offi cial opposition, it's my duty to ernment has to decide their comfort level with the cred- make whatever eff orts I can to push legislation, nudge ibility of the lab. I know the government of Saskatchewan it if I can, to try and make it slightly better. With that, I is very confident in the credibility of the lab at the propose an amendment to Bill 19, amending section 16 University of Saskatchewan, despite the fact that it isn't by striking out subsection (2). accredited to the level that the B.C. lab is. [To amend section 16 of the Act by deleting the text highlighted by strikethrough: 16 (1) Except as permitted under section 17 [duty to keep in- N. Simons: One of the things that we sort of rely on formation confi dential] or 18 [personal information], a person as a society is independent science to balance offi cial sci- described in section 17 (1) or 18 (1) must refuse to disclose the ence. Without in any way demeaning the scientifi c cred- following: ibility of anyone, second opinions are oft en sought, and (a) information that would identify a person responsible for an animal or for an animal product or byproduct; opinions from independent scientists are oft en sought. (b) information that would identify an animal or an ani- In a province where there's sometimes a perception mal product or byproduct that is located at or in a that certain industries are promoted more than others specifi c place or on or in a specifi c vehicle; and certain balances of concern are on one side or the (c) information that would identify a specifi c place at which an animal or an animal product or byproduct other of an issue — for example, in the area of fi sh farm- is located; ing in this province; it's a controversial issue and one that (d) information that would reveal that a notifi able or 3308 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

reportable disease is or may be present in a specifi c Look at the outbreaks of SARS that cost the Ontario econ- place or on or in a specifi c vehicle; omy billions and billions of dollars. Look at avian infl uenza, (e) information that would reveal that an animal or an animal product or byproduct aff ected by a notifi able which cost hundreds of millions of dollars to the poultry in- or reportable disease is dustry here in British Columbia. Look at emerging zoonotic (i) located at or in a specifi c place or on or in a diseases that have the potential to spread from animals to specifi c vehicle, or (ii) owned, or in the custody or control of, an man and cause extreme morbidity and mortality in the hu- identifi able person or body, or that an iden- man population. When you're looking at protecting public tifi able person or body is an operator in rela- health, it is critical that information be submitted in a timely tion to the animal or the animal product or way, with confi dence for producers. byproduct; (f) information that is derived from a sample taken When you know what happens when you don't have under this Act or that is submitted to the ministry this confi dence, when you know that the result of that is of the minister or a laboratory identifi ed in an order that people go around the system and prevent a robust of the minister. animal disease control system.... When that is the conse- (2) Despite the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, a person who would otherwise be required quence of what the member would want to do, I strongly, under that Act to disclose information described in sub- strongly speak against that. So I would say that we will section (1) of this section is not required to disclose the in- vote against the amendment. formation except as required under section 25 of that Act.] Now, while that might be not the most fine-tuned Th e Chair: Seeing no further speakers, the question amendment, it is one that I think brings attention to my is the amendment proposed by the member for Powell concern and the concern of my colleagues and those in- River–Sunshine Coast. terested in ensuring that the balance is appropriate. [1540] [1545-1550] I think that it's an opportunity to correct what I think is a fl aw in the legislation and provide the government Amendment negatived on the following division: with an opportunity to correct that fl aw, to address the YEAS — 32 concerns of the Information and Privacy Commissioner who, from her expert position, believes is the appropri- Corrigan Simpson James ate balance to be struck. Ralston Farnworth Popham Kwan Fleming Conroy Th e Chair: Th e amendment is in order. Does the mem- Austin Hammell Donaldson ber wish to speak to the amendment? Chandra Herbert Huntington Macdonald Karagianis Eby Mungall On the amendment. Bains Elmore Heyman Darcy Robinson Trevena N. Simons: Well, thank you for the latitude. I thought B. Routley Simons Fraser I just spoke to it, my concerns. As I mentioned, I believe that by striking out subsection (2) of section 16, that we, Weaver Chouhan Rice in fact, do not exempt anyone from reporting. I believe Shin Holman that the Information and Privacy Commissioner's role NAYS — 43 and responsibility and the legislation under which she acts would maintain its robustness. Sturdy Bing McRae I hope that the government considers this, and if not, Stone Fassbender Oakes maybe in the future we'll have an opportunity to possibly Wat Th omson Virk strengthen the legislation or make it even more precise, Wilkinson Yamamoto Sultan as it were, to ensure that the balance, if not at fi rst try, be- Hamilton Reimer Ashton comes better at the second try. Morris Hunt Sullivan Cadieux Lake Polak Hon. T. Lake: I would speak against the amendment de Jong Clark Coleman and for reasons that I mentioned earlier. I appreciate the Anton Bond Bennett member's sincerity, and I would just say that I disagree in terms of where the balance is. Th is is about protecting Letnick Barnett Yap the public. I understand that the member is concerned Th ornthwaite Dalton Plecas about the public's right to know, and that is why, when it Kyllo Tegart Michelle Stilwell is in the public interest, this legislation says the minister Th roness Larson Foster can release that information in the public interest. But Bernier Martin Gibson above all, this is about protecting people. Moira Stilwell Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3309

Th e Chair: Th e committee will take a brief recess for as the case may be, in circumstances where it's merited. the return of staff . Th is subsection (3) says: "For greater certainty, infor- mation may be disclosed outside British Columbia for Th e committee recessed from 3:53 p.m. to 3:54 p.m. the purposes of subsection (2) regardless of whether there is a threat to animal health or public health, or to an [D. Horne in the chair.] animal's health or a person's health, in British Columbia." Can the minister explain why that's in this act? Th e Chair: We are currently considering section 16. [1600]

N. Simons: Would that mean we're on section 17, just Hon. T. Lake: Th is is about information-sharing. As for clarifi cation? mentioned, the Public Health Act is similar, in that in- formation is shared among jurisdictions that informs Th e Chair: We actually haven't passed section 16. So decision-making and research in other jurisdictions. if you've got any further questions on 16…. Again, it says "may be disclosed," and, of course, there would be discretion in that. But it may be disclosed. Section 16 approved. Information may be shared for the purposes of informing other jurisdictions and increasing protection of livestock, On section 17. agriculture and the public.

N. Simons: Some new subsections were added to N. Simons: Can the minister provide an example of enable the sharing of information outside of British situations where that would be important to do, just for Columbia, permitted under the Freedom of Information clarifi cation? and Protection of Privacy Act, 33.1(1)(c). [1555] [R. Chouhan in the chair.] Can the minister just explain what those changes en- tail and whether or not, in fact, this leaves some of the Hon. T. Lake: I was just hoping beyond hope that decision-making to the minister, him or herself, as the I would get the opportunity to talk about porcine epi- case may be, in the future? demic diarrhea, so I am. It's a coronavirus, which is a small virus that infects the intestinal tract of pigs. Th ere's Hon. T. Lake: Th is section was added so that informa- an outbreak throughout North America that is causing tion may be disclosed outside of B.C. for the purposes of some real concern, so it's important for us to be able to subsection (2). Th at is consistent with the Public Health Act, to allow information-sharing with other jurisdic- share information about the results of our tests, which tions. Th is is permitted under FOIPPA, section 33.1(1)(c). are negative, and the way we test. We can share that information with other jurisdictions, N. Simons: I'm still recovering from the defeat of my and that helps in their eff orts to reduce the spread of that amendment, so bear with me. I was expecting some- PED. Th e benefi t is that by sharing that information, we thing else. actually help to prevent the spread of disease and prevent The concern raised by the commissioner…. Again, it in some way from coming to British Columbia as well. we're talking about privacy and protected information, so that requires that I talk about this particular section a N. Simons: Could it be said that the commissioner's little bit more. Is it possible…? Maybe I misheard, but is concerns that there's no oversight by her offi ce or any- there any oversight, from any independent commission one else to make sure that the government is disclosing or anything, of a minister's decision as to what to tell the information in the public interest…? Is that one of those public either in the moment or later on? situations where we should just rest assured that gov- ernment knows best and it's doing what they can? Or is Hon. T. Lake: Of course, the minister is responsible for there some other oversight that can reassure the public making decisions about the release of information that is that they'll be provided information with respect to issues in the interests of the public. Having said that, the Privacy addressed in this section? Commissioner can go back and look at those decisions and, while the Privacy Commissioner cannot reverse the Hon. T. Lake: Th e commissioner had some concerns decision, can provide an opinion to the minister as to the about the section that we passed earlier. Th is section is, nature of the decision-making and provide recommenda- in fact, permitted under FOIPPA section 33.1 that I men- tions for future use and release of information. tioned earlier.

N. Simons: Well, let's hope her future advice is heeded, Sections 17 and 18 approved. 3310 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

On section 19. be seized by the chief veterinarian, and then, when the chief veterinarian has seized the item, the veterinarian N. Simons: Th e minister has added that the act has may return or dispose of the animal, animal product, included timelines. Can he explain what the timelines by-product or whatever it was that was confi scated. Th e requested refers to in section 19? order may specify the manner of disposal, including de- [1605] struction or sale. Subsection (4) allows the chief veterinarian to seize Hon. T. Lake: Th e timelines would vary depending on and dispose of an abandoned animal without confi rma- the situation. Th ere would be situations in which it would tion of a reportable disease or exposure to a reportable be very urgent to get that information. disease, and subsection (5) was added to ensure that a An example would be where there is a disease suspect- person who purchases a disposed item that was seized by ed that is transmitted vertically — in other words, from the chief veterinarian and then acquires full rights to it the mother to the off spring. If a producer, for instance, can further dispose of it as they see fi t. If they are to be in had a disease in a herd and if this was a disease that could possession of a seized item and acquire the rights to that be transmitted from the cow to the calf and if the calf had item, they have the ability to dispose of it as they see fi t. been sold, we would want to know that information as to where that calf was — essentially immediately. Sections 30 to 35 inclusive approved. Th e inspector would put a tighter timeline on the re- quest for information than they would under other cir- On section 36. cumstances. N. Simons: Mr. Chair, 36 is referring to deemed con- Sections 19 to 28 inclusive approved. trol zones and gives the minister quite a significant amount of authority. I wonder if that's something that On section 29. could potentially be an issue that…. Once again, the ap- parent lack of oversight with respect to the minister's N. Simons: Th is section refers to the reason for seiz- discretion — is that something that's standard in legisla- ure, slaughter or destruction. I'm just going to ask a ques- tion like this, or is British Columbia creating itself a super tion with respect to some changes that apparently were powerful minister? made. Why were those changes made from the previous version of this bill? Hon. T. Lake: No, this is not an unusual power for the minister to have. It is to prevent a reportable or notifi able Hon. T. Lake: Th e cancellation of an operator's licence disease from entering B.C. in the fi rst place or to establish in the former proposed legislation was grounds for seiz- or protect an area as being free from a reportable or noti- ure of an animal. Th at is no longer the case. It seemed fi able disease. Th ese are mechanisms that are employed a bit heavy-handed, so that was removed. Abandoned in disease control elsewhere as well. animals are not seized unless they pose a risk to animal or human health. Again, that is a change because we felt Sections 36 to 55 inclusive approved. that was outside the realm of this legislation. On section 56. Section 29 approved. N. Simons: Can the minister explain what issues On section 30. around warrants can be made by regulation? I'm just curious as to what would be contained in regulations as N. Simons: Because of the potential disruption of such it refers to section 56. an order, the legislative changes also seem to have oc- [1615] curred between the bill as it was previously introduced and then as it is now — specifi cally, the new subsection Hon. T. Lake: Th is allows an inspector to apply to a (5) which allows for the person receiving an animal or justice of the peace for a warrant "to enter and search a product or by-product disposed of under section 30(2) place, including a private dwelling, and take any neces- (b) to slaughter or destroy, regardless of why it was ori- sary action…." It says: "…in the manner set out in the ginally seized. Is that a fundamental change, or is it sim- regulations…." Th is allows the development of a form, a ply something that was omitted in the fi rst version of standard form, to be used in application to the court for this bill? such a warrant. [1610] Th e Chair: Just for the record, we want to make sure Hon. T. Lake: This section 30 identifies what may that we have passed section 41. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3311

Section 41 approved. mals, in this case. [1620] Sections 56 to 59 inclusive approved. Th e conditions to be met before an emergency is de- fi ned are outlined in section 59. Th is is where the chief On section 60. veterinarian believes that one or more areas of the prov- ince have two of the following criteria existing in that part N. Simons: Here's another section which refers direct- of the province: the presence or suspected presence of a ly to issues around concerns of the Privacy Commissioner. reportable disease that could have a serious impact on Section 60: public or animal health; there is immediate and/or sig- "During an emergency, this Part applies despite any provision of nifi cant risk of spread of the reportable disease; the inci- this or any other enactment, including, (a) in respect of the col- dence of the reportable disease is unusual or unexpected; lection, use or disclosure of personal information, the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and the Personal there is signifi cant risk of travel or trade restrictions as Information Protection Act, and (b) in respect of a specifi c person a result of the presence or suspected presence of the re- or thing, a provision that would impose a specifi c duty, limit or portable disease. procedural requirement, to the extent there is any inconsistency In other words, these are extremely serious situa- or confl ict with the provision or other enactment." tions, and the Minister of Health and the Minister of Th is is the same section that was introduced in Bill 37 Agriculture are responsible for protecting the public and in 2012, and the commissioner, I believe, made a request protecting the agriculture industry under these emergent that government delete this section. I'm just wondering conditions. Th at is why we feel that it is necessary to have if, in fact, the minister considered that and what the re- the same level of protection of the information under the sults were of any conversations he may have had on that Public Health Act and the Animal Health Act. in that regard. N. Simons: Well, I'm not suggesting in any way that Hon. T. Lake: As mentioned earlier, while this Animal the commissioner could suspend or delay or intervene Health Act on the surface may seem to be about animal in situations that have been defi ned as emergency. I'm disease — and, of course, a large part of it is about pro- simply suggesting that once an emergency situation has tecting animals from disease — it's also about protecting passed, perhaps that commissioner would have the op- humans from disease that may originate in animals. Th is portunity to review it to ensure that the public good was Animal Health Act will work in concert with the Public protected. Health Act, and this section actually mirrors, almost In no way am I suggesting that the commissioner word for word, the wording in the Public Health Act. would have any say as to whether something is healthy Again, it is important that these two acts work in con- or if there's a threat to human or animal health. I'm sim- cert to not only protect the spread of disease from animal ply saying that in that sphere perhaps the commissioner to animal but from animal to human as well. could have some oversight as to how information is used or collected. N. Simons: Now, I understand that, and I understand the importance of acting in a sometimes more urgent Hon. T. Lake: This section says: "During an emer- way when there are emergent issues as defi ned under gency, this Part applies…." Aft er an emergency is over, the act. My specifi c concern or issue that I think needs as mentioned previously, the commissioner certainly to be raised is that there is the possibility of, as the min- would have the opportunity to review decisions made by ister himself mentioned, the ability for the commissioner ministers in regard to release of information and provide to go back and make sure that everything was done in recommendations to ministers as to her view of the ap- a way that protected people's privacy and protected the propriateness of the decision. public interest. Th ere was an opportunity to do just that. I think that the commissioner, perhaps, should have N. Simons: As is my proclivity, I believe that this is an the authority to oversee the emergency actions being opportunity to provide a little more strength to the pro- taken that are outside of the regular provisions of this tection of public interest, so I propose an amendment to act, just to make sure that the public can have confi dence section 60, which would add a paragraph. that the purpose and intent of the legislation is adhered [To amend section 60 of the Act by adding the text shown as to, while at the same time making sure that the protec- underlined: 60 (1) During an emergency, this Part applies despite any provi- tion of the public is respected. Can the minister explain sion of this or any other enactment, including, why, perhaps, the Privacy Commissioner isn't given that (a) in respect of the collection, use or disclosure of personal authority now? information, the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection Act, and Hon. T. Lake: Th e Privacy Commissioner isn't respon- (b) in respect of a specifi c person or thing, a provision that sible for the health of the public — or the health of ani- would impose a specifi c duty, limit or procedural re- 3312 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

quirement, to the extent there is any inconsistency or essentially, taking over the power of a minister of the confl ict with the provision or other enactment. Crown. In an emergency, that could aff ect the morbidity (2) Th e Offi ce of the Information and Privacy Commissioner is granted the authority to have oversight over the collection, and mortality of animals and humans. I think it would use, and disclosure of the information that takes place during be highly inappropriate to abdicate the powers of a min- an emergency.] ister of the Crown to any other offi ce under such cir- cumstances, so I would argue vehemently against this On the amendment. amendment.

N. Simons: Hon. Chair, thanks for the opportunity to Amendment negatived on division. speak to this amendment. It relates to section 60, emer- gency powers. Section 60 approved on division. Th is section "provides that when an emergency is de- clared by the chief veterinarian" — I'm quoting from Sections 61 to 63 inclusive approved. Elizabeth Denham, the Privacy Commissioner — "an inspector under the Animal Health Act has unlimited On section 64. powers for collection, use and disclosure of personal in- formation. Th ese emergency provisions are being pro- N. Simons: When the act states that "Th e minister may, posed without evidence of actual need or evidence that in an emergency, make regulations as follows," how is the FIPPA and PIPA do not already enable this collection, minister informed of what decisions are to be made about use and disclosure." emergency regulations? How is that process undertaken? Could the minister comment on that? How does that process fall out?

Th e Chair: Member, you have a question? You're just Hon. T. Lake: Th is is a highly unlikely situation, but speaking on the amendment. again, it mirrors the provision in the Public Health Act. So in an emergency there can be exemptions made by the N. Simons: Yes. Oh, that's true. minister through the chief veterinarian. Well, that's just more evidence that, in fact, perhaps An example might be an outbreak of an avian disease this kind of provision needs to have safeguards in place. in a particular area and you have a heritage fl ock of birds The reason for the amendment would be that there that could be subject to that disease. Because they are in doesn't seem to be evidence that FIPPA and PIPA don't a facility that has biosecurity provisions in place that give do this job already. Th at's why this amendment, as pro- confi dence to the chief veterinarian that that potential posed, would address this shortcoming. disease could not enter that premise, they would then [1625] be exempted from repeat testing, for instance, to ensure I think that, with concern around the fact that it's…. that they didn't have the disease. In emergencies there are instances and situations where Again, it would be unusual, but there may be circum- a process needs to be adhered to almost more carefully stances that would occur in which exemptions would be because of the emergency type of situation. preferred. As the commissioner stated, the "powers to collect, [1630] use and disclose personal information during an emer- gency" seem to be actually unlimited — that's my inter- Sections 64 to 66 inclusive approved. pretation — and are "susceptible to misuse." Th e Offi ce of the Information and Privacy Commissioner is set up On section 67. because it has the jurisdiction to oversee how informa- tion is collected, even information that's collected dur- N. Simons: Speaking on section 67(2), if the minister ing an emergency. may draw his attention to that: "Th e minister may enter With that, I think the amendment speaks for itself. into agreements with any person or body, including the Once again, the eff ort is to put some of the balance back government of another jurisdiction…." Can the minis- into the act to provide the commissioner with the au- ter defi ne "another jurisdiction"? Is that any other juris- thority that she carefully manages. I recommend that the diction? Could it be Canadian provinces, territories, or House support this amendment. are we talking about United States state authorities? Or just anyone? Hon. T. Lake: I would speak against the amendment. Th e amendment says, "Th e Offi ce of the Information and Hon. T. Lake: Th e most likely example of entering into Privacy Commissioner is granted the authority to have agreements with another jurisdiction would be with the oversight over the collection, use, and disclosure of the federal government, but it could be another province. For information that takes place during an emergency" — instance, in Alberta, where there's a much larger cattle Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3313

herd and cattle industry, they may have an interest in par- inspector and also a person acting under this act, so they ticipating in control programs in British Columbia, as our are actually covered in this section. calves enter into their market in the feedlot. Th is gives fl exibility to respond to diff erent situations. Section 74 approved. Again, it would be probably unusual, but if it were to occur, most likely it would occur with Canada or perhaps On section 75. a neighbouring province. N. Simons: I don't see a reference to an inspector here, N. Simons: Could the minister just repeat that last and I once again wonder if the…. Oh, I suppose the chief part? Th ere was some distraction to my left . I won't iden- veterinarian is also a veterinarian. I've answered my own tify it, but it was slightly louder than my hearing ability question. Is that appropriate in this case? Okay. was able to contemplate. Sections 75 to 92 inclusive approved. Hon. T. Lake: Certainly. I said these would be unusual circumstances, but again, it allows fl exibility. Most likely On section 93. that agreement would be with Canada or with a neigh- bouring province, like Alberta. N. Simons: I'm asking a question on section 93 of part 8, "Regulations," with respect to Bill 19, Animal N. Simons: I don't remember having seen a provision Health Act. in any act that allowed for the creation of agreements My question: does section 93(1)(d) include wild ani- with other jurisdictions with such broad strokes. Can mals? the minister give an example? Was the example some- thing to do with trade or something to do with sharing Hon. T. Lake: It would include game animals that are of information over diseases or reportable or notifi able regulated activities. It would not include wild animals diseases? I'm not sure what situations would require this that are regulated under the Wildlife Act. agreement. [1635] N. Simons: Just for clarifi cation, is there any section of this act that relates specifi cally to wild animals and their Hon. T. Lake: Th ere are other acts that allow us to en- interaction with domestic animals? ter into agreements with other jurisdictions, particularly [1640] sharing of information. I'm not aware of other legislation in British Columbia that allows another jurisdiction to Hon. T. Lake: Th e wildlife can act as a reservoir for administer an act. I'm not aware of that, but I certainly diseases that would spill over into domestic animals, can take that on advisement and try to fi nd an answer so it's important that they are monitored. A good ex- and deliver it to you. ample would be rabies in bats. If rabies is found in bats, obviously the chief veterinarian is made aware of N. Simons: It was just surprising to me when I saw that. Particularly, if there are diseases that could spread it the fi rst time. We're essentially giving another juris- through domestic animals and are found in wild animals, diction the authority to administer a provincial piece of that information would be utilized under this act as well. legislation, and I'm not sure if other jurisdictions would have that authority even if we gave it to them. However, Sections 93 to 95 inclusive approved. maybe that's a moot point, and if the situation arises where that subsection needs to be deleted, I look for- On section 96. ward to that day. I think those were all my questions on section 67. N. Simons: Can the minister just explain what…? Specifi cally, section 96(2), making regulations for the Sections 67 to 73 inclusive approved. purposes of sections 20 and 21 as follows: "(d) respecting conditions under which a person may be exempted from On section 74. a requirement to make a report under this Act" — what is that intended to cover? N. Simons: I just wanted to ask if the minister could explain why the chief veterinarian is specifically not Hon. T. Lake: Th is is like a refresher course for me, named as immune from legal proceedings. I'm here to and it brings back some pretty bad memories from the support everyone. '80s. An example of infectious laryngotracheitis. In poultry, Hon. T. Lake: Th e chief veterinarian is considered an for instance, it's an infectious disease, but if there was 3314 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

an outbreak of that particular disease and a producer ors inspecting for disease under his or her authority as could prove that his facility had been vaccinated for that well. I'm wondering if those individuals are also…. I don't particular disease, they could be exempt from manda- know how many there are; maybe the minister can tell us. tory sampling and reporting because the vaccine would Do they report to the chief apiarist, or are they employees show up identical to the actual virus. So there would be reporting to the chief veterinarian? essentially no information gleaned from mandatory test- ing and reporting. Hon. T. Lake: I'm informed that there are seven sea- It's a situation where, upon the information provided, sonal employees who act as inspectors who report to a decision would be made to provide an exemption to a the chief apiarist, who in turn reports to the chief vet- producer. erinarian. [1645] [1650]

N. Simons: I believe that did answer my question. I N. Simons: My question is: in what circumstances just wanted to put it on record. does the chief apiarist report to the chief veterinarian? Maybe they work side by side. Maybe this is something Sections 96 to 99 inclusive approved. that is not going to change with this new legislation. But if there are any changes, please can the minister advise? On section 100. Hon. T. Lake: I'm informed that there are no changes N. Simons: Once again, section 100 appears to leave a in terms of how the reporting occurs. An example where lot of discretion to the minister. Is that standard in legis- the chief apiarist would work with the chief veterinarian lation of this nature? occurred when there were some bees that were imported from Alberta. Alberta informed us that there could be Hon. T. Lake: This is the Lieutenant-Governor-in- a potential of a particular organism in these bees. Th e Council that has the regulatory power in this case, which inspector confi rmed that, and the chief apiarist then re- is not unusual in other pieces of legislation. ported that information to the chief veterinarian.

Sections 100 and 101 approved. N. Simons: When decisions are made around issues like quarantines, is that the decision of the chief veterin- On section 102. arian? Or is it on the advice of the chief apiarist? Or could the chief apiarist make those decisions under the previ- N. Simons: I'm sorry. I only have some notes on this. ous legislation as well as the current legislation? For some reason my bill was missing this. But with re- spect to the Bee Act, can the minister explain how the Hon. T. Lake: Th e minister is responsible for a quar- Bee Act has been incorporated into this piece of legisla- antine order but, of course, takes advice from the chief tion before us today? veterinarian, who would, around apiaries, take advice from or work together with the chief apiarist to make Hon. T. Lake: Th e Bee Act will be repealed, and the that recommendation to the minister. provisions of the current Bee Act that are aligned with this legislation are incorporated into this legislation. Th e Sections 102 and 103 approved. other parts of the current Bee Act will be provided for under regulation. On section 104.

N. Simons: Under the current legislation, the chief api- N. Simons: Th is is the section which has the repeal arist, I believe, is responsible for the provisions of the act. of the Animal Disease Control Act, sections of the Food What is the relationship between the chief veterinarian Safety Act, the entirety of the Fur Farm Act and the Game and the chief apiarist in terms of authority and decision- Farm Act, and sections of the Milk Industry Amendment making power? Act. Have all the provisions that have been deleted been subsumed by this bill? Hon. T. Lake: Th e chief apiarist reports to the chief veterinarian. Th e chief veterinarian is able to delegate Hon. T. Lake: Not all the provisions of these acts that powers to the chief apiarist in terms of management of are being repealed are subsumed into this legislation. As the provisions of the Bee Act that are now in this and the I mentioned, a good example is the Bee Act, where the regulations that would be developed for the bee industry. applicable parts were brought into this legislation. Others would be covered under regulation, and that's the case N. Simons: Presumably, the chief apiarist has inspect- for some of these other acts as well. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3315

Sections 104 to 119 inclusive approved. eral regulator who's looking aft er it at the federal level? [1700] Title approved. Hon. M. de Jong: I'm reminded that "superintendent" Hon. T. Lake: I rise to report completion of the bill under the bill is a defi ned term and means the super- without amendment. intendent of pensions appointed under the Pension Benefi t Standards Act. So that person is in place, and Motion approved. this section allows that person to designate an alternate.

Th e committee rose at 4:54 p.m. M. Farnworth: So it's the plan of the government, then, for the existing superintendent to be the super- Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. intendent in charge of this, but that individual has the [1655] ability to make a designation for it to be somebody else? Is that correct? Report and Th ird Reading of Bills Hon. M. de Jong: Th at is correct, but I am reminded that the bill elsewhere contemplates the possibility of BILL 19 — ANIMAL HEALTH ACT multi-jurisdictional agreements that would allow the superintendent to delegate intrajurisdictionally certain Bill 19, Animal Health Act, reported complete without functions as well. So the statement is correct, but else- amendment, read a third time and passed. where in the proposed statute the superintendent also is granted the authority to enter into multi-jurisdictional Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on Bill agreements. 9, Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act. M. Farnworth: Perhaps if we deal with those now, Committee of the Whole House that might be helpful. When the minister says "multi- jurisdictional," we're talking multi-jurisdictional within BILL 9 — POOLED REGISTERED PENSION the province or outside the province with other prov- PLANS ACT inces and the federal government and other extraprov- incial jurisdictions? Th e House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 9; R. Chouhan in the chair. Hon. M. de Jong: No, it would be extraprovincial.

Th e committee met at 4:57 p.m. Sections 5 to 8 inclusive approved.

On section 1. On section 9.

M. Farnworth: I expect that we'll be able to get through M. Farnworth: Th is is an important section that deals this relatively quickly. Th ere are a number of areas where with the limitation on a transfer and the assignments of I do have some questions. I think I talked to the minis- moneys in a PRPP. I think there are a number of ques- ter ahead of time already about some opportunities for tions in this particular area that I'd like the minister to BCIMC. I'll do it in the section under regulations, and be able to address. Th e key one, I guess: what protections we can have a discussion there. against loss will apply to PRPPs? In particular, will they be treated in the same way as RRSPs in terms of the pro- Hon. M. de Jong: Might I simply introduce to the tections that are provided to them or to other pension committee Cynthia Callahan-Maureen and Marcus Gill, plans and the protections applied to them? So what pro- who are joining us for the debate. tections will be in place? Bankruptcy, for example. Is that something where if Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved. you have a PRPP and you go personally bankrupt…? In the way that your RRSPs are protected to a certain extent, On section 5. will the same measure be place be in place for PRPPs? [1705] M. Farnworth: Th is deals with the acting superintend- ent. Has the government made a decision on who they Hon. M. de Jong: Maybe I'll begin with a general intend to appoint as an acting superintendent for the proposition, and the member may want to delve down purpose of the PRPPs, or will you be appointing the fed- further. Th e intention is to aff ord this pension mechan- 3316 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

ism the same protection from creditors that exists with those in place? respect to other pensions in British Columbia, and this [1710] section specifi cally lays out the two exceptions to that protection as it relates to court orders relating to a rela- Hon. M. de Jong: As the member might expect, the tionship breakdown and family maintenance obligations. objective here — and part of the magic of the concept, Th e general rule against protection can be overridden in if there is indeed to be magic — is that there be a meas- those two circumstances. ure of uniformity across the country. Th e intention is to adopt, to the greatest extent possible, and harmonize — M. Farnworth: I just want a bit further clarifi cation on although I'm not sure we're allowed to use that term any- that. With an RRSP, as I understand it, your RRSP is pro- more — the federal regulations. When I say "adopt and tected in the case of bankruptcy except for the contribu- adapt," at this point what I mean by that is simply to en- tions that have been made in the last 12 months, if I am sure that they are adopted to conform with our general not mistaken. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. legislative constructs here in British Columbia. In the case of pensions, they are protected if you go bankrupt, with the exceptions, as the minister was say- M. Farnworth: No, the minister is right. I mean, this ing, around family maintenance and the other one you is a multi-jurisdictional eff ort where part of…. One of just mentioned — division of assets in the breakdown of the provinces…. Right across the country, federal regu- a marriage. So the pooled pension plan would be treated lations are in place, but of course, each province has their no diff erently than an existing pension plan, subject to own jurisdictional architecture, however or whatever you those two issues. want to say, and issues that are unique to that province. What would be the general way in which a court would So there'll be regulations made here to deal with that in look at the family maintenance and the breakdown and British Columbia. division of assets? Would it require the dissolution of Now, will there be an impact, for example, with Alberta the pension, the withdrawal of the pension? Or would it with TILMA in terms of our ability to make sure that our just be a splitting of the pension benefi t at that current regulations…? Will that impact this particular initiative? date or at a future date, in terms of the breakdown of a Has there been work underway to ensure that the regu- relationship? lations between the two provinces are in harmony with each other? Hon. M. de Jong: An important issue. Th e intention is to ensure there is a mechanism in place whereby the Hon. M. de Jong: I think you're going to see a strik- court in those circumstances would deal with this asset in ing similarity, for two reasons. One is the reason that the the same way it does other defi ned contribution pension member mentioned. Th ere is, I'm reminded, a multi- plans. Th at's why later, when we get to the consequential jurisdictional working group that's involved in this. Th en amendments, the member will have seen the reference in the case of Alberta, specifi cally, the member knows…. to the Family Law Act to ensure that this is now a con- I mean, Bill 10 is an example of the coordination that cept known to the law within the context of the Family has taken place specifi cally between British Columbia Law Act. and Alberta on pension issues. I anticipate a signifi cantly similar construct in the content and substance of the regs. M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for confi rming that the intent of this section, and later, is to ensure these M. Farnworth: Th at leads me to my next question. are treated the same way as other pension plans are in As I said, we have been supportive of the legislation, but terms of the protection that's aff orded them and also in we did have some issues that we felt could be addressed terms of those circumstances where they are subject to or should be addressed to make the legislation, actually, a court order. more eff ective, better and more responsive to the needs of people who are going to be able to take advantage of that. Sections 9 and 10 approved. One of those areas is around the transparency asso- ciated with the fees charged for PRPPs. Th at's an issue On section 11. that has been raised at a number of levels in terms of the insurance companies and the major fi nancial insti- M. Farnworth: Th is is also, I think, another key, im- tutes that are going to be the ones, by and large, off ering portant section, which is the power to make regulations. pooled pension plans. While much of this act is based on the federal legislation Has there been thought given by the province to the that has been passed, this section allows the province to kinds of improvements that could be made so that people make regulations. What areas is the minister considering involved know exactly the fees that are being paid? I making regulations in or anticipating making regula- understand that work has been done or is being done tions in, and when would the ministry expect to have by the federal government in that area. Is the province Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3317

actively pursuing improved transparency in that area, or having fl agged this issue earlier. By doing so, I'm able to are they working with the federal government to try and tell him the following. Th ere's nothing in the legislation come across with a multi-jurisdictional standard that will that we're dealing with that would prevent the BCIMC address that particular issue? from off ering a PRPP. Th e federal legislation that infl uences this concept only Hon. M. de Jong: I'm obliged to the member for hav- requires that an administrator be a corporation, which ing raised the matter earlier in the debate around the bill, BCIMC certainly is. If it were interested in becoming an which means I'm able to off er him, hopefully, some help- administrator, it would need to apply for a licence and ful information. demonstrate that it has the capability, which presumably [1715] it would be in a position to do. I think some of this work has been done and is the pro- Th e only part of the answer that I'm cautious about duct of the construct we're dealing with here. and will want to verify for the member is I'm not cer- Section 57 of the federal act requires disclosure of in- tain that…. I am suspicious that the legislative construct formation, and of course, this act adopts that require- under which the BCIMC operates independently prob- ment. I am further advised that the federal regulations ably precludes a direction from the government. specifi cally require fee disclosures at a number of stages. [1720] Again, following up on the line of questioning that the I have no doubt that they are, as most people are, glued member has properly advanced. If I am correct — and I to the set watching this exchange and will take the sug- believe I am — in indicating how, in addition to adopting gestion seriously that has been tabled on the fl oor here. the statutory provisions, our regulations will mirror the I don't mean to make light of it. I suspect that it is federal regulations, we will have, at a minimum, a similar something that they'll discuss. I don't believe it's some- level of disclosure requirement that also pertains to fees thing that occurs at the behest of the government, be- being charged. Th at's about as far as I can go at this point. cause of the arm's-length nature of the relationship between the BCIMC and the executive branch. M. Farnworth: Th e regulations that the minister is talking about being developed at the provincial level — M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for his answer. will they be in place before the pooled pensions are ac- You're right: BCIMC is arm's-length. It is independent tually being off ered for purchase, for sale in B.C.? and does not, as a rule, take direction from government. But like you, I know that they are glued to this debate Hon. M. de Jong: Th ey'd have to be. and this discussion right now. Th ey can always go back and review it at a later time on video or what have you. M. Farnworth: Th at brings me to my next topic under I do think that this is…. It would be good for them this particular section — again, one that I raised with to look at this. I think it would be a real opportunity for the minister earlier. Yes, it'll be the major fi nancial in- their expertise, their management record, to be available stitutions — insurance companies, banks — that are go- for companies that want to participate in a PRPP. It may ing to be off ering pooled registered pensions, and they be a product that they want to off er and that they, I think, have their fee structure in place. And yes, we want to see would be an excellent administrator of. I hope it is some- greater transparency, and that will be the primary vehicle. thing they are looking at, and I hope this discussion is At the same time, there are other potential vehicles, something that will allow that to take place. particularly here in British Columbia, where we already My fi nal question on this particular section. Th e work- have the British Columbia Investment Management ing group that the minister has talked about: is there any Corporation who manages our pension plans and does indication when they intend to have all their work com- so on a very low administrative fee level and has the abil- pleted and to have the regulations in place by? ity to save considerable amounts of money. Has the minister given thought to either encouraging Hon. M. de Jong: Apologies for the delay. What I or acquiring through regulation their ability to off er a wanted to verify is, of course…. The member in the pooled registered pension plan so that companies may House knows that several other jurisdictions have passed wish to use them as a vehicle and save considerable similar legislation. I wanted to confi rm the status of their amounts of money in terms of the fees and the manage- work. ment fees that they charge and at the same time avail Th ey have not completed regulation, so the working themselves of the expertise that they bring to the area group is engaged in that work and fi nalizing an agree- and off er another option, a greater choice, that can be ment that will establish a measure of uniformity. I think just be as benefi cial to people who want to participate in the best answer I can give at this point, based on the ad- a pooled registered pension plan? vice I'm receiving, is that the parties to those discussions and to that work would like to have the work completed Hon. M. de Jong: Again, I'm obliged to the member for by the end of this calendar year. 3318 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

M. Farnworth: That would be the point at which Report and PRPPs would actually be available for purchase, then, in Th ird Reading of Bills B.C.? Or would it potentially happen sooner? BILL 9 — POOLED REGISTERED PENSION Hon. M. de Jong: Yes, the fi nalization of the agreement PLANS ACT and the proclamation of the regs would be the prerequi- Bill 9, Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act, reported site to the availability of the product. complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Section 11 approved. Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on Bill On section 12. 20, the Local Elections Campaign Financing Act.

M. Farnworth: Just very quickly. Th e next series of Committee of the Whole House sections, 12 through 16, deal with the Family Law Act. Th e ones aft er that, 17 through 21, deal with the Family BILL 20 — LOCAL ELECTIONS Maintenance Enforcement Act. CAMPAIGN FINANCING ACT [1725] Th e House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Th ese particular sections relate back to what we were Bill 20; R. Chouhan in the chair. talking about earlier in terms of how pooled registered pensions will be dealt with in the same way as current Th e committee met at 5:30 p.m. pension plans are, and these are all amending sections to the required and appropriate legislation that falls under Sections 1 to 6 inclusive approved. family maintenance and family relations. On section 7. Hon. M. de Jong: Th at is correct. S. Robinson: I was wondering if the minister can ex- Sections 12 to 28 inclusive approved. plain this section on election advertising.

On section 29. Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you for the question. Th is sec- tion just establishes a new key concept in this act around the concept of election advertising. Th e defi nition will al- M. Farnworth: Yeah, I did want to confirm that low for clear rules that will address the task force recom- amending the defi nition of "spouse" is putting that in the mendations that they brought forward. context with spouse and how it applies to all of the other government legislation across the province. [D. Horne in the chair.]

Hon. M. de Jong: Yes, it is specifi cally intended to For example, third-party sponsors of election adver- adopt the Family Law Act defi nition, the one that will tising are required to register as a third-party advertis- appear, similarly — the defi nition — in the new Pension er. Another example is that all election advertising be Benefi ts Standards Act. included in the information about who sponsored the advertising. It just really is consistent with the Election Sections 29 to 31 inclusive approved. Act. Th is is just defi ning it and putting it into the scope of this legislation. If there's something more specifi c, I'd be happy to address that. Title approved. S. Robinson: Just doing my best to understand the Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise and re- broad defi nition. It's not clear to me. Does that mean that port the bill complete without amendment. any issue that's part of a platform of any election cam- paign in the province, I'm assuming, is captured? If there Motion approved. is a community group or a social advocacy agency pro- moting their particular issue and they're out and about Th e committee rose at 5:27 p.m. and then there's an election called and, lo and behold, now somebody takes that on as a campaign, does this Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. group now have to register, even though that was never Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3319

necessarily their intent? Th ey'd been doing this for years, S. Robinson: I'm thinking a little bit more around where they promote a certain position. issue advertising. If there's a group that's promoting a pesticide-free B.C., and there's a by-election happening Hon. C. Oakes: As we go further into the act, we go in, let's say, Barriere — we'll use that as an example — and into the specifi cs around the registration requirements somebody has in their promotional materials that they as well as the more specifi c type of election advertising. want to ban the use of pesticides in their community…. Again, if we're looking at the period of 46 days before Th ere is no current ban. an election, folks will have to start the process of regis- Would the pesticide B.C. people, who are doing this tering with Elections B.C., and there are more specifi c provincewide and wouldn't necessarily know whether defi nitions outlined within this legislation on what that or not there was a by-election in some smaller commun- will look like. ity, be in violation of the act? Would they have commit- ted an off ence? S. Robinson: If I understand the minister correctly, then it means that advocacy groups that spend a whole Hon. C. Oakes: Elections B.C. has a signifi cant role lot of time out in the community promoting their par- in determining under this new legislation what it would ticular issue in that 46-day period would have to stand look like for election advertising. Again, it would look at down, I would imagine, or cease promoting that. Th ey means of how long they have been planning this particu- would have to, in essence, sort of shut down what they're lar election piece. But that candidate would also, if it was doing unless they wanted to register with Elections B.C. the pesticides they were looking at, have to come out and that would be their issue that they stand on as a candidate. Hon. C. Oakes: Again, this just follows what we do They're running in a by-election, and they're run- within the election advertising currently on the provin- ning for something around advocacy, around looking cial Election Act. What it requires is that we'll have a very at the use of pesticide. And there is an advocacy group simple process through Elections B.C. on how folks can in Vancouver that said: "Look, we want you to support candidates that are aligned with that." Th ey will have to register. Th at follows suit with what we currently do on register. But again, it's around the candidate or the elec- the provincial scene. toral organization, and it is their responsibility, work- [1735] ing through the new regulations with Elections B.C. on registering. S. Robinson: Just following some of the logic. I'm just trying to make sure I can wrap my head around all the S. Robinson: I'm still trying to wrap my head around ifs, ands and buts here. how this plays out, so I hope the minister will forgive me If the minister can explain what would happen in the if I keep asking the same kinds of questions. It's not really case where an advocacy organization is advertising, let's clear to me that if a candidate is infl uenced by some lobby say, in a more provincial paper like the Province or the group over a number of years…. Vancouver Sun about a particular issue, and there hap- Th e reason I used pesticides was because that was my pens to be a by-election somewhere, like in Kamloops or campaign when I very fi rst got elected. It was one of my in Barriere or in some small community. pieces of platform. And yes, they certainly did infl uence Would that group…? Would it be beholden to them my thinking and certainly supported what they were do- to know when there was a by-election happening some- ing. If it had been, let's say, a by-election in a small com- where in the province when they're doing this? Do they munity and they were doing their provincewide advocacy risk having committed an off ence? — doing ads in newspapers, maybe ads on television — would they have to register for this by-election that's hap- Hon. C. Oakes: When we talk about election adver- pening in some small community? tising, really it's about the election of a candidate or an [1740] electoral organization that is endorsing that candidate. And does that mean these advocacy groups, wherever Again, if there was a by-election in Barriere, the group there's a by-election, have to register if they are doing around election advertising would be for that candidate. provincewide advocacy work? Does that mean that for Certainly, if there's a group in Vancouver that's a lob- every by-election they need to register just in case some- by or an advocacy or an organization that promotes that body picks up on it as part of a platform piece, and that and there is a by-election for a particular candidate in somehow will have some sort of implications around this Barriere, they should be aware of that. On the election piece of legislation? notice they'll have to put…. So it's around the candi- date in a particular community. Th ey'll have to register Hon. C. Oakes: Again, this specifi c act, section 7, is if they're supporting that candidate or electoral organ- just defi ning what election advertising is. When we go ization. into sections 38 and 39 — we had identifi ed earlier on 3320 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

— that's when we start that dialogue of what third-party this example as I try to understand it and make sure that registration will look like. Probably it will be a better time certainly those who are going to be running in the next to start going through the specifi cs under sections 38 and election understand it. I already have people coming to 39. Th at really answers those specifi cs. me asking. So a kid makes a sign, an issue sign. We'll stick with Sections 7 and 8 approved. pesticides. It's an issue that's near and dear to my heart. Th ey put out a sign that says that so-and-so is running On section 9. and doesn't support pesticides on lawns and to please support that person — a kid-made sign. Th ey put it on S. Robinson: Can the minister explain this section their lawn, or they put it in their window. Is that child about who is a sponsor of election advertising, non- now in trouble because they have put out their home- election assent voting advertising, just for clarifi cation? made sign? [1745] Hon. C. Oakes: Following in what the task force recommendations were for election advertising, they Hon. C. Oakes: It's interesting when we were talk- asked to include sponsorship information within the sec- ing…. Th ese are the exact types of things that we've been tion. It sets out rules that are used to identify the sponsor in conversation over. of election advertising and non-election assent voting ad- Currently under this legislation, it's complaint-driven. vertising. It identifi es the sponsor. It's important because Somebody could complain about a child who puts togeth- under this new act, the sponsor must be advertised spe- er a sign, as you just described, around use of pesticides cifi cally on the advertising. Again, the approach to iden- on lawns. It would then go to Elections B.C., and Elections tifying the sponsor of election advertising is consistent B.C. would have to determine what enforcement they with what is currently within the Elections Act. would look at. Again, within this legislation there is that requirement to register. However, let me be clear that it's S. Robinson: Given that that's the case, did the minis- complaint-driven, and Elections B.C. has the role on what ter consider a registration threshold for this piece? the enforcement would look like.

Hon. C. Oakes: Yes, that was considered, but we S. Robinson: I don't know about the community that looked at going with what was consistent with what we the minister comes from, but certainly in my commun- currently have within the Elections Act. ity it can get pretty petty about the number of signs and what they look like. I'm sure there would be complaints S. Robinson: Can the minister explain what some of if people don't follow the rules. the pros and cons were about this consideration? I have another question. It's similar to that, and that has to do with, let's say, a school teacher who's promot- Hon. C. Oakes: Th ere was a recent court decision that ing banning smoking in parks — there is a candidate who has come about, and with the rise, of course, of Internet wants to do that because they legislatively can do that — advertising, whether Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, one and she's teaching students about getting involved. As a can no longer assume that advertising below a particu- class, they decide that they want to do signs and maybe lar threshold would not have an impact on elections. put them in all along their school property because they Th erefore, we did not implement a threshold for the regis- want to participate in the electoral process. Would this tration for third-party advertising. Th e proposed third- also be a challenge? And would the teacher then have to party registration requirements are consistent, like we register as an organization that is a sponsor? said earlier, with the Elections Act. Again, in the recent B.C. Supreme Court decision Hon. C. Oakes: Again, we all want to be promoting B.C. Freedom of Information and Privacy Association democracy and getting our youth engaged and sup- v. British Columbia, the court upheld section 239 of the porting these types of initiatives. Yes, if they were to put Elections Act, demonstrating the justifi cation of a limit in that sign up and there was a complaint that was driven a free and democratic society. Th ey stated that the imple- around that, Elections B.C. would look at the enforce- mentation enforcement of third-party election advertis- ment of this legislation and say that they should be regis- ing regulations and in turn the increase of transparency, tering. openness and accountability during the electoral process I would also comment: we are looking at how we can is really what we were looking at. So that is why we went engage youth in this process. From a democratic process, and made that move to support matching with what is I think it is also a great opportunity for youth to under- currently within the Elections Act. stand, to get engaged and to register and be a part of this process. Th ey would have the ability to go and work S. Robinson: If the minister will again indulge me in with Elections B.C. to register. Th at could be part of this Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3321 whole learning process of getting involved and learning ket value" is: "in relation to property or services, means that good civic ability to get involved in your community. the lowest price charged for an equivalent amount of equivalent property or services in the market area at the S. Robinson: I thank the minister for her explanation, relevant time." although I happen to think that the way to get children engaged in the electoral process is actually issue-driven S. Robinson: I'd like to thank the minister for that and not bureaucracy-driven. response. What this is doing is creating some bureaucracy that, I have another question. Th is is about (5)(b), which really, most of us can't be bothered with, never mind chil- speaks to "election advertising transmitted without dren. I think that when their hearts move them, then we charge if such transmission without charge is also made ought to go with the energy rather than put in another available on an equitable basis to all other candidates in piece: "Oh well, before you can do that, you have to sign the election." up and fi ll in this paperwork." I don't know that that's the I don't know about the minister's experience of lo- best way to go, necessarily. cal elections, but certainly, everybody wants to have the Th at was all I had on this item. same information at the same time. Th ere's nothing in here that says that it's also communicated. It needs to be Sections 9 to 12 inclusive approved. made available. My experience is that something could be made available, but it doesn't mean that everybody On section 13. knows about it. So I wanted to know if the minister had considered that part of this, this piece for this legislation. S. Robinson: I want to ask the minister a question that has to do with campaign contributions. Did the minister Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you for the question. Th e rel- consider a cap on donations as part of this legislation? evance of this particular piece of legislation…. Oft en, in many of our communities, a local paper or radio will off er Hon. C. Oakes: Th ere was no recommendation on this to each of the candidates the same amount of equivalent from the task force. time, whether it's a show to talk about their candidacy, debates or what have you. It just needs to ensure that all S. Robinson: Does that mean that the minister, if I candidates have equal access to that. It would be the same understand…? If there was no recommendation, then format, whether it's a newspaper that prints all of the an- there was no interest in considering it at all? swers to each of the candidates…. [1750] S. Robinson: No, I actually do understand what this Hon. C. Oakes: Th e task force, as we all know, con- is saying, and I certainly have had the opportunity to sulted for many years with a number of diff erent organ- avail myself of that. But I also am fully aware that there izations and groups and thoughtfully put forward the are some of these opportunities that are made "available" recommendations for this legislation. Th is was not an — I'll use quotation marks — but might not necessarily item, based on all of their consultation, all of the work be communicated. that they did with the groups to bring that forward…. For example, they may be made available, but only Th ey did not make a recommendation on this item. those who know about it can actually avail themselves of it. And unless you actually go out of your way to ask if Sections 13 to 15 inclusive approved. you could, then you don't even know to ask if you could. Certain candidates are left in the cold, while those can- On section 16. didates who are in the know, who perhaps have done it before, can avail themselves of some opportunity. S. Robinson: I do have a question that relates to (2)(b). Unless you know, unless this group has communicated Th is is the valuation rules for campaign contributions. I it…. It doesn't mean that everybody knows that it exists. would like to know from the minister about: "the mar- It only means that it is available to whoever asks for it. It ket value of the property or services, if no price is paid doesn't mean that people know to even ask. Th at's all I'm or if the price paid is less than the market value." Th ere suggesting around this. is no direction on how to determine the market value. I [1755] just wanted to know if there was some other protocol that the minister knew about that would be helpful guidance. Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you for your question and for your experience with this. It has to be equitable. If you Hon. C. Oakes: Again, thank you very much for bring- fi nd that that wasn't being equitable, then they would ing that forward, because it certainly helps clarify it. end up having to register as a third party, because then it Within the defi nitions we do have identifi ed what "mar- would be selective around election advertising. So again, 3322 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

it has to be equitable. Sections 16 and 17 approved. But you know what? Th ank you for putting that for- ward. We'll make sure that becomes part of the education On section 18. process that we also do moving forward. S. Robinson: I just had a question. It was prompted, S. Robinson: So am I to understand, then, that if actually, when I read section 19, and then I went back to someone fi nds that it isn't equitable — in this case, those section 18. So I thought I would ask it here because it's who know you can go to this newspaper or you can go to the piece that's missing. this radio station and get this opportunity — they would In section 19(5) it notes that when a fi nancial agent re- have to make a complaint? Th is would be, I'm assuming, signs, dies or meets some other fate… It describes how complaint-based. And then in all likelihood it would be the elector organization must act. Th ere is nothing in well aft er.... I'm assuming it wouldn't be investigated until here, in section 18, that suggests what happens when a aft er the election. similar fate might happen to a fi nancial agent here. I'm wondering if the minister can speak to why that's the case. Hon. C. Oakes: Again, thank you for the question. I guess the example, following up on this, is that if a can- Hon. C. Oakes: In the case of an individual that's run- didate didn't know…. Say fi ve knew, and two didn't. It ning, under section 18, that the fi nancial agent…. You then becomes what Elections B.C. could.... For the fi ve have the ability to be your own fi nancial agent, or you people that did know, it could now become part of their can have a fi nancial agent for you. So if something hap- fi nancial disclosure. It becomes valued as a contribution. pened to your fi nancial agent, you could take over that It's in the best interest of the media outlet or what have role. And if something happened to you, then…. you to ensure that all candidates have equitable access to S. Robinson: I thank the minister for her response. that opportunity. So if I read it correctly, then, you can't assign another fi nancial agent. It's either your original fi nancial agent or S. Robinson: Because this is new, I suspect there will yourself. Th ere's no opportunity, then, to identify another be some folks who will not get all the rules right. Th ose person to step in? candidates who did not know, for example — would they then complain to Elections B.C.? Would that be the ap- Hon. C. Oakes: By default, if something happens to propriate place for them to take their complaint? your fi nancial agent, you have the ability, the powers, to revert it back to yourself. But then you have the ability to Hon. C. Oakes: Again, it would go to Elections B.C. reappoint and fi nd a new fi nancial agent. for that, and then there would be that determination of whether a supplementary report would have to be made Sections 18 and 19 approved. by the other members, who would fi nancially have to disclose that value. On section 20. [1800] S. Robinson: In section 20, "Requirement for elec- S. Robinson: Following that logic then, given that tor organization campaign account," (5)(f) talks about there are no campaign limits, in some ways it almost "making payments for reasonably incurred expenses, doesn't matter. Whether you put it in or you don't put it other than election expenses…." I'm just going to ask in, it really doesn't matter, because we don't have cam- the minister: what might these reasonably incurred ex- paign limits. Th is feels really moot without any campaign penses look like? limit as part of the package. I wonder if we're going to get compliance on it. Really, Hon. C. Oakes: An example of this is you could use at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You just can write your account for fundraising activities. a number in about whatever you got because this is the market value. But if there are no limits, it's really insig- S. Robinson: I want to make sure I heard properly. Did nifi cant — if that's what I'm understanding. the minister say that if your expenses that you use in or- der to host a fundraiser…? Is that what I understood? Are Hon. C. Oakes: Again, this is really about transpar- there any others, or is that just it? ency. Th at's the idea of this whole legislation, and it puts [1805] that power back to the citizens. Th ey'll have to now…. On this particular one, if it's not equitable and they have to Hon. C. Oakes: Again, to look at that as an example, say disclose it, then the citizens have the ability to see who a year and a half outside to the 46th day of an election…. has contributed to folks' campaigns. Th ere was a fundraiser that was held, and things needed to Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3323

be purchased on behalf of that fundraiser. Th en this is what $50 to the same candidate or electoral organization in this (f) item provides that ability to accomplish. relation to one or more election campaigns for elections being held at the same time. S. Robinson: Th ank you. I appreciate that. Th at makes good sense. S. Robinson: I thank the minister for that explanation. If there's nothing else that we can possibly think of, I want to know: was all of this as it appears here in this why not just call it fundraising expenses and leave it at piece of legislation…? Was this the full recommendation that, rather than "reasonably incurred expenses"? Always, of the task group, or have there been some things that are whenever there is something fuzzy, there's all kinds of stuff diff erent than what the task group recommended? that can get thrown in that might not be the intention. Hon. C. Oakes: Within the white paper there is a slight Hon. C. Oakes: There are other items outside the alteration of what we heard when we did stakeholder scope of 46 days, years in advance of an election — for engagements through the white paper process that hap- example, a voter list or databases that you're creating. pened in September and October, as well as the subse- You're still incurring a cost, but it's outside of the scope quent meetings that we had with electoral organizations of that 46-day election period. But it technically still ap- and area associations across the province. When we had plies once you get into that election period. Th is just tries the dialogue around moving from three to four years, the to capture that. one item that continuously got raised, specifi cally in rural communities, was around allowing for $49 and under to Sections 20 and 21 approved. provide the opportunity around campaign contributions — to allow that to continue. On section 22. What was really felt, and you heard time and time again…. Sometimes there'd be a senior in a small com- S. Robinson: In this section in (4) it talks about re- munity that wants to provide $5 to each of the candidates. cords and materials that "must be retained in British We heard very loud and clear that they felt that if they Columbia" and then who has to retain them. What if now had to put their name and address down, it was in- these people leave the province? Five years is a long time. fringing on their ability to be involved in local elections. It's getting shorter as I get older, but it's still a long time. We felt that under $50 was an amount that still allowed What happens if the candidate or the fi nancial agent or the individual to be engaged in the political process — both of them leave the province in that time? didn't feel it infringed upon their civic ability to do that [1810] — but also provided the transparency that we're really re- quiring on all of those items over $50. Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you for the question. Th is is consistent with the Election Act, but it's certainly some- S. Robinson: In terms of clarity about this $50, the task thing we'll also bring up with Elections B.C., in case there group recommended to ban anonymous donations, and is a circumstance that it may arise. Th ank you for clari- upon additional consultation, the minister thought that it fying and bringing that forward. We'll raise that with would be against good democracy. I fi nd that fascinating, Elections B.C. as well. because there are other issues that challenge democracy that were recommended by the task group, and they're Sections 22 to 25 inclusive approved. not presented here. I want a bit of clarity here around the $50. It says, "more On section 26. than $50," so I'm assuming $50 is okay. It's not $49 and under. If the minister can please clarify that, that would S. Robinson: Can the minister perhaps explain this be great. section — the restrictions on making campaign contri- butions? Hon. C. Oakes: You can do an anonymous contribu- tion of $50 but nothing over $50. Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you for the question. Again, this [1815] section is around the restrictions on making campaign con- tributions in relation to how contributions can be made. V. Huntington: I am rising to propose an amendment It really is from the task force recommendations. It's all to section 26 of the bill. around transparency and ensuring that all campaign con- [To amend as follows: tributions are made directly only to authorized individuals By deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text and with the required contributor information. shown as underlined: Section 26 (1) An individual or organization must not do any Th is section also prohibits making anonymous cam- of the following: paign contributions that have a total value of more than (a) make a campaign contribution to a candidate or 3324 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

elector organization other than by making it to It follows in line with the member's bill that I intro- the fi nancial agent or an individual authorized duced in 2013, the Election Finance Amendment Act, in writing by the fi nancial agent to receive such contributions; which was a proposal to restrict campaign donations (b) make an anonymous campaign contribution that provincially to individuals and to residents of British has a value of more than $50; Columbia. In fact, this would do so at the municipal or (c) make a number of anonymous campaign contri- local government level. butions to the same candidate in relation to one or more election campaigns of the candidate for Th e comments I made at the time of introducing my elections that are being held at the same time if, member's bill hold today, and I believe that I can repeat in total, the campaign contributions would be some of those comments. I would remind the House that equal in value to more than $50; Manitoba and Ontario have banned corporate and union (d) make a number of anonymous campaign contri- butions to the same elector organization in rela- donations at the municipal level. Th ey are banned at the tion to one or more election campaigns of the federal level. Th ey are banned provincially at the Quebec, elector organization for elections that are being Manitoba and Nova Scotia provincial level. held at the same time if, in total, the campaign It is high time that British Columbia become one of contributions would be equal in value to more than $50; those jurisdictions that acknowledges that there is a pub- (e) make a campaign contribution, other than an lic perception out there that money is talking and that anonymous campaign contribution that is per- democracy in this province is increasingly bankrolled mitted under this Act, without disclosing to the by special interests. It is a conviction among the public individual receiving the campaign contribution the information required to be recorded under that undermines the legitimacy of our democracy and section 29 [campaign contribution information our trust in the institutions of democracy. that must be recorded]; Th is amendment, I would submit, reasserts the prin- (f) make a campaign contribution with money, non- ciples of our democratic values by limiting the right to monetary property or services of another indi- vidual or organization; donate to the very people of British Columbia to whom (g) make a campaign contribution indirectly by giv- we report — the individual voter. Th e amendment to sec- ing money, non-monetary property or services tion 26 is a practical change that I hope the minister con- to an individual or organization siders and that will show all British Columbians that we (i) for the individual or organization to make as a campaign contribution, or honour their vote and we'll be accountable to them and (ii) as consideration for that individual or or- only to them. I would hope that both sides of the House ganization making a campaign contribution. would consider this amendment carefully and accept it (2) Except as permitted by regulation, an elector organiza- in the good faith in which it's intended. tion must not make a campaign contribution of money to its own campaign or to the campaign of a candidate who is or is intended to be endorsed by the elector or- Th e Chair: Seeing no further speakers to the amend- ganization. ment…. (3) Only individuals may make campaign contributions. [1820] (4) For greater certainty, contributor classes (b) to (g) are prohibited from making campaign contributions. (3) (5) An individual or organization that contravenes this Hon. C. Oakes: Th ank you very much for bringing for- section commits an off ence.] ward this amendment. It's diffi cult, just receiving it in the House, to try and thoughtfully provide the consideration Th e Chair: Th e amendment is in order. that I feel you deserve. Does the member wish to speak to the amendment? From the information that we have, the task force did look at these through the recommendations of the task On the amendment. force, and it wasn't brought forward that we should be looking at that. Th ey felt that looking at expense limits, V. Huntington: Th e House will recall that during debate which is the next phase of what we are looking to accom- on the bill in second reading, there were a number of quer- plish, will achieve more fairness for communities. ies of the minister or a number of comments made that the We'll be looking at items when we go through the ex- bill should consider restricting the size of campaign do- pense limits part, phase 2, of legislation that we'll be nations. Th e minister mentioned, in response, that it was bringing forward. We'll be looking at that. We do not the municipalities, through their organizations themselves, support this amendment. that had felt that they needed time in order to develop with the province a consistent framework for donations. V. Huntington: If I could, with respect, Mr. Chair, sug- This amendment doesn't propose to interfere with gest that expense limits are an issue totally separate from that discussion about size of donations. What it does is who is making the contribution. You can set whatever ex- restrict donations to individuals only. In other words, it pense level you want, but it has nothing to do with wheth- is banning corporate and union and other organization er it's a corporation, an individual, a union, an electoral contributions to a candidate. organization or a non-profi t making that contribution. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3325

I think the minister's position on whether or not this What is a corporation? It's a third party. It does infl u- amendment is appropriate is misinformed, should I say, ence elections. It does create an uneven playing fi eld out respectfully. I really don't think that argument is justifi - there among the diff erent candidates. It creates an onus able, given that all we're talking about is who is entitled to oblige that corporation or that union once the election to make a contribution. is complete, once that candidate has won. Th is is an anathema in the modern democratic world. It is A. Weaver: I rise to speak in support of this motion. something that is skewing decisions at the government level. I wish to reiterate: unions do not vote; corporations do And with great respect to the work of the task force, if they not vote. Yet they can sway an election through the un- did indeed discuss this issue, they are wrong. Th e govern- bounded contributions that are being made. ment is wrong if it says that the people don't believe special One is left with the question: whose interests are being interests are obliging the decisions of a candidate and of a served? Is it the people who vote? Or is it those corporate government. It is our duty to prevent that, to stop that from and union vested interests that are able to get the candi- happening in order to protect the very nature of the demo- dates of choice in? Ultimately, when those candidates of cratic process that we all apparently believe in and espouse. choice are elected, who are they representing? Are they Th ere comes a time, and perhaps the time is now, when beholden to those who've got them there or to those who we have to stand up and say: "Look, the people are ex- elected them? It's very unclear. tremely concerned. We have a problem here. Th ere is a While I recognize that we're debating the Local Elec- perception that we are not serving the people, that we are tions Campaign Financing Act, the same is true at the serving other interests, and we have to stop that perception. provincial level. In British Columbia it's very odd. We are We have to stop it in its tracks, and we have to protect the looked at oddly as being a province that allows this kind very nature of the democratic institution that we all oper- of infl uence of corporations and unions in all forms of our ate within." I strongly believe that the banning of corporate electoral systems. and union donations, restricting political donations to the I fi nd it fascinating here today that the two people individual voter, is the only way we can do that and the only speaking strongly in favour of this resolution are the in- way we can restore a democratic trust in our institutions. dependents, who, basically, got elected to this Legislature through individual donations and not through corporate S. Robinson: I, too, support this amendment. It cer- and union donations. tainly speaks to something that we have been calling for I rise again to reiterate that I strongly support this. We on this side of the House around provincial elections must eliminate — seek means and ways of eliminating — and certainly would welcome at the local government. the infl uence of large corporations and large unions on If we can lead in that direction, that would certainly be our electoral systems in order to restore confi dence in welcome. our democratic systems. What better time than now to Th e idea that corporations, unions and special inter- do this in this bill that we're looking at right now? est groups can infl uence — with money, with services, With that, I will be voting in support of this amend- with materials — the outcome of elections is just wrong. ment. We need to make sure that there's a level playing fi eld for everybody. Local elections are the grass-roots piece of our Hon. C. Oakes: Organizations have a legitimate role. community. Th ere are those haves and those have-nots. We were talking earlier about the importance of the ad- Th ose who have access to large sums of money…. We don't vocacy group that was bringing awareness around pesti- have election expense limits. Yet we're allowing people to cides, as an example. Within our democratic process, just spend whatever it is they can collect from large cor- there are organizations out there, whether it's bringing porations that have deep pockets, large unions that have awareness for pesticides, bringing awareness for the en- deep pockets, when what we're really saying is: "Who do vironment, bringing awareness as an organization for you want to represent you?" We need to make sure that something that you're passionate about. people who are running for local government can do that Th at's where the task force looked. Th ey felt that we equitably. need to…. From a democratic process, we allow this in Th e minister earlier talked a lot about the importance the provincial elections. Th e task force supported the of things being equitable. Well, right now it's not equit- recommendation that we move forward on the legislation able. Th is amendment, I think, brings that very value to to include both individuals and organizations. the forefront of this bill. I would certainly support the [1825] amendment.

V. Huntington: I'd just like to reply to that. Th is bill is Hon. C. Oakes: Again, to speak to the concerns putting enormous restrictions on donations and on the around confl ict of interest, there is legislation and lo- rights of third parties to advertise. Why? Because we fear cal government policies that speak to confl ict of inter- the ability of a third party to infl uence an election. est. Absolutely, we are looking at tools to support local 3326 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

governments with that. But not allowing legitimate par- on how much they can donate. Th e Harper government ticipation in the electoral process would be problematic. is actually turning the clock back. Th at's the reality. Th ey Th is legislation is about ensuring transparency and are turning the clock back. ensuring accountability. Organizations now have to dis- We need to, if we are really serious…. Let's be frank about close who they are providing money to as the candidates. it. I think our mandate was very clear. We said in our last A voter in British Columbia now has the ability to fi nd election, the previous election, that there should be a ban on out, when they're looking at a candidate, who is provid- union and corporate donations during elections. Th e federal ing them with money. It provides the citizens of British government had that in there. It's this current government Columbia the ability to look at who is supporting those in Ottawa that is turning the clock back. candidates — while protecting the legitimate participa- So I just want to make it clear that that's what the re- tion in the electoral process. ality is. If we really want to see who…. If the citizens, in this particular bill, want to have their real say and it's not A. Weaver: First off , I'd like to correct what I said ear- tilted because of heavy donations coming from one or a lier. I will thank the offi cial opposition, also speaking in few other people with deep pockets, then the ordinary favour of this amendment. I did say it was just the in- citizens who want to represent their communities have dependents speaking, but it is clearly the independents hardly any chance of succeeding. and the offi cial opposition, and I'd like that to be cor- rected on record. I think the amendment is right. But I think the state- [1830] ments being made…. I thought I needed to stand up and Secondly, I would like to address the points that were just correct them. raised. Our federal colleagues and the Conservative govern- [1835-1840] ment of Canada recognized that this was a problem, and they brought in legislation at the federal level to do precise- Th e Chair: Th e question is the amendment proposed ly that: ban union and corporate donations for the obvious by the member for Delta South to section 26. perception of confl ict when large donations can come from vested interests to elected individuals — from people who Amendment negatived on the following division: are not voting. What's more, what's important here, is that people do not see who funded them — the people who elect YEAS — 28 these people — until aft er the election. Corrigan Simpson James So while I recognize there is transparency, that trans- Ralston Farnworth Popham parency is only there when it is too late — too late to see Kwan Fleming Conroy which vested interests put up their dollars to ensure that Hammell Donaldson Chandra Herbert their candidate got elected at some level of government. Huntington Macdonald Karagianis Th is is wrong. It's wrong at a very fundamental level. It's Eby Mungall Bains wrong because it undermines our democracy. It's one of the reasons we're seeing a lack of partici- Elmore Heyman Robinson pation and a cynicism within the general population, B. Routley Simons Fraser particularly with our youth, when they're seeing vested Weaver Chouhan Shin corporate and union interests essentially buying govern- Holman ment at the local level, as discussed here, and in broader contexts in other jurisdictions as well. NAYS — 42 So this is a wrong piece of legislation in that regard. Sturdy Bing McRae Other aspects of course I support. But this amendment Stone Fassbender Oakes truly must pass for there to be a true recognition that Wat Th omson Virk democracy at a fundamental level is important to all Wilkinson Yamamoto Sultan British Columbians. Hamilton Reimer Ashton Morris Hunt Sullivan H. Bains: I'm listening to this debate very, very care- fully, and it just made me stand up and make this obser- Cadieux Lake Polak vation on this amendment. I agree with the amendment, de Jong Coleman Anton but I think some of the statements being made here are Bond Bennett Letnick a bit farther away from what the reality is. Barnett Yap Th ornthwaite Statements are being made that the federal govern- Dalton Plecas Kyllo ment, Mr. Harper's government, recognizes this issue. Tegart Michelle Stilwell Th roness Th ey don't. It was the Liberal government that brought Larson Foster Bernier those limitations on unions and corporations, limitations Martin Gibson Moira Stilwell Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3327

Sections 26 and 27 approved. Hon. C. Oakes: Th at is correct, but that is consistent with what currently happens. On section 28. [1850]

S. Robinson: Th is section talks about dealing with Sections 49 to 57 inclusive approved. prohibited campaign contributions. In (2) it notes that if a fi nancial agent is not able to return money that is On section 58. given inappropriately, it's paid to the B.C. Chief Electoral Offi cer. I just wanted to know if the minister had thought S. Robinson: In reading this "Public access to disclo- about…. What does the B.C. Chief Electoral Offi cer do sure information" piece, there is a piece in here that talks with those funds? to the B.C. Chief Electoral Offi cer having discretion in making some decisions. What criteria or situation was Hon. C. Oakes: It gets put into the consolidated rev- the minister thinking about that would leave things open enue fund. to discretion? [1845] Hon. C. Oakes: Th e signifi cance of this is that it estab- Sections 28 to 37 inclusive approved. lishes rules that protect personal information associated with campaign fi nance. When we met with the privacy On section 38. folks, one of the things…. Sometimes people provide more information than what is required, and this just S. Robinson: I'm just looking for some clarity from provides the ability for Elections B.C., the authority, to the minister on this one. It's the application for regis- obscure information before providing that to public ac- tration, and (2)(b) notes that "the name of the sponsor cess. and the mailing address, telephone number or email…." Sections 58 to 73 inclusive approved. Does that mean any of the three, or all of the three? I'm just not really clear, in the writing, if all of those need to On section 74. be provided. S. Robinson: In section 74 it talks about reviews, Hon. C. Oakes: It is the name and then one of the investigations and audits by the B.C. Chief Electoral other, whether it be mailing address, telephone number Offi cer. It permits the Chief Electoral Offi cer.... Actually, or e-mail address. it says: "...must conduct periodic reviews of the fi nan- cial aff airs and accounts of candidates, elector organiza- Sections 38 to 48 inclusive approved. tions, third party sponsors and assent voting advertising sponsors…." On section 49. So must conduct periodic reviews. If the minister can clarify what "periodic reviews" means. Th ere's a "must," S. Robinson: In this one I do have a question about and then there's a "periodic review," and I can't seem to the candidate disclosure statement. It talks about, in (2) bring those two together. (d), "campaign contributions received by the candidate, including information respecting identifi cation of sig- Hon. C. Oakes: This just ensures that Elections B.C. nifi cant contributors…." If the minister can please pro- has the powers and duties necessary to carry out ef- vide us with examples of what a signifi cant contributor fective compliance and enforcement of the act. They would be in this case. will be going through the financial disclosures and do- ing that review, so it just provides them that author- Hon. C. Oakes: Signifi cant contributor — we have a ity to do that. defi nition point for it in the "Defi nitions" section. It's in relation to a campaign contribution having a total value S. Robinson: If I understand correctly, they can of $100 or more. choose to do them or not to do them. Or must they do them? I guess I'm getting tripped up by "periodic" S. Robinson: If I understand that correctly, then if rather than that you either do them or you don't do somebody provides $95, they're not considered a sig- them. There's no time frame that says you must do nifi cant contributor, even though they're just a few dol- them every six months or you must do them every lars short. Th ere are diff erent…. So we're already making election. Does that mean you can skip four elections some distinction between contributors. Th at's what I and do it once every 16 years? I'm just trying to get understand. some sense of time. 3328 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

[1855] PROCEEDINGS IN THE Hon. C. Oakes: Th ey must be reviewing the fi nancial DOUGLAS FIR ROOM disclosure statements. Committee of Supply Sections 74 to 79 inclusive approved. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION On section 80. (continued)

S. Robinson: So 80 is about general rules and de- Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. fence of due diligence. I'm wondering. In section (3) Dalton in the chair. it talks about: "An individual or organization is not guilty of an off ence under this Act if the individual or Th e committee met at 2:51 p.m. organization exercised due diligence…." If the minister could please explain how due diligence is understood On Vote 18: ministry operations, $5,350,361,000 (con- in this context. tinued).

Hon. C. Oakes: Th e test of due diligence puts a posi- M. Farnworth: My questions for the minister are tive obligation on those seeking relief to demonstrate that around school district 43, sometimes referred to as they did all that was responsible to comply with the dis- Coquitlam school district but also encompasses not just closure requirements. Coquitlam but Port Moody, Port Coquitlam, Belcarra and Anmore. It is one of the largest districts in the prov- Sections 80 and 81 approved. ince, as the minister knows, in a province where the aver- age per-pupil funding is $7,538. Yet in school district 43 it is only $6,966. On section 82. If you look at since '09-10, had the per-pupil funding kept up with infl ation, the per-pupil funding should be S. Robinson: I'm wondering if the minister could ex- about $7,492. Can the minister explain why the govern- plain paragraph (2) of this section. ment has failed to keep up with the infl ationary pressures for school district 43 and other school districts? Hon. C. Oakes: Th is just denotes that it is the day that the Chief Electoral Offi cer had knowledge made available Hon. P. Fassbender: I know the member is aware, hav- of that. And then that is submissible in court. ing played the responsibility of the Finance critic…. I'm Noting the hour, the committee rises and reports sure he knows the numbers very well, but he has some progress and seeks leave to sit again. wrong, actually. Th e per-pupil funding in school district 43 in 2001-2002 was $5,767. In 2013-2014 it's $7,910, Motion approved. which is a 37.2 percent increase over that period. Th e other thing that I want to say to the member, be- Th e committee rose at 6:58 p.m. cause I don't believe he was here yesterday when I spoke about the eff ect of infl ation, is infl ation does not aff ect the Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. entire budget, as I'm sure he knows. Th e vast majority of the budget is salaries. Less than 20 percent of the budget Committee of the Whole (Section B), having reported is affected by inflation factors, and even in that, not progress, was granted leave to sit again. equally, because diff erent items are aff ected diff erently. [1455] Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported Th e other thing is that the funding formula, the way progress, was granted leave to sit again. it is, looks at all of the elements that are involved in establishing the funding block for each school district. Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of debate. Enrolment, of course, is one of the key factors, and our full-time enrolment in school district 43 is down 3.2 per- Motion approved. cent from 2001-2002 to 2013-14. What I did say yesterday, and it is on the record, is Madame Speaker: Th is House, at its rising, stands ad- that one of the things we're doing is we're looking at re- journed until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. engineering our education system, looking at the prior- ities and the changes that have taken place over the last Th e House adjourned at 6:59 p.m. number of years and, more importantly, the changes we Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3329

see in the future. ministry on that, so I've got two questions on that that We will be working with school districts and the I would like the minister to deal with. One, have they BCSTA across the province to look at the funding for- moved to the issue of the elementary school? And can the mula, because it has been established to try and ensure ministry tell us when the residents of Burke Mountain that there is some semblance of equality throughout the can expect the new elementary school to be built? province between districts. Th ere are challenges there, of [1500] course, because of the unique nature of diff erent districts in the province, be they rural or urban. Hon. P. Fassbender: I want to go back to the mem- So there are a number of factors that are in play, but ber's numbers that he was referring to. In 2009-2010 the our commitment is that we are going to take a look at per-pupil funding was $7,466. As I said, in 2013-14 it's the funding formula. $7,910, so we're looking at an increase of about 7.5 per- cent over that period of time. M. Farnworth: I'd just like to correct the minister. I Speaking to the capital projects, I want to clearly say to think his hearing may have been wrong. I didn't mention the member that the Coquitlam school district has done 2001; I said '09-10, the numbers for school district 43 that a great job in consulting with the community. Th ey have I was referring to. Th ese are the numbers that school dis- worked well with the civic governments within that dis- trict 43 uses that are causing them considerable problems trict to look at where the pressure points are. What they in terms of the decisions they are having to make. have done is developed a plan, some of which requires Th eir questions that they're asking are…. Th ey're fa- some disposal of property, which will free up capital to cing signifi cant cost pressures in a number of areas, many acquire other property. of those areas which are infl ationary. Many of those areas Our ministry is absolutely working very closely with are due to pressures that have been downloaded by gov- them to do what we can to expedite that process. It has ernment. One that the minister can acknowledge is the to go through the steps. As I'm sure the member knows, cost of salary increases that school boards were told to disposal of property is not as quick or as easy as you absorb. might like it to be sometimes, but defi nitely the prior- Th e point is this. School districts right now are con- ities are clear. We understand those and will continue to cerned about a funding formula that is causing consider- work with them as expeditiously as we can to make sure able inequity in a number of districts and causing them that we move those projects where the pressure is ahead to make some signifi cant decisions that are impacting as quickly as possible. their particular district in a way that has not happened Th e other thing, as I've said, is we absolutely are going in previous years. In the case of school district 43, they're to be looking at the funding formula moving forward for saying: "Hang on a sec. Our per-pupil funding is signifi - all of the districts in the province. cantly less than the provincial average." I understand there are all kinds of issues that go into M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that. We the formula, but the bottom line is that the formula, as it could duel over the numbers, but all I'll say is this. He is right now, is starting to have an impact on districts. I has his numbers, the school district has their numbers, think the ministry needs to address those, because you're and clearly, they're not in sync. Th at may be one of the seeing districts such as school district 43 and the min- challenges that the school district is facing. Th e ministry ister's former community in Langley and other districts might want to work with them on that. that have never had fi nancial challenges before all of a Final question. Th ere is not just growth on the Burke sudden facing fi nancial challenges that are not of the nor- Mountain side, but there is growth in terms of chan- mal scale. Th at's what I would like the minister to look at. ges in community plans in communities such as Port Then my second question is on school capital and Coquitlam, for example, where land that was industrial is school construction. As the minister is aware, and I now becoming residential. Th ere are about an additional raised this with him last year, this is around Burke 1,000 units of housing being built. One of the concerns I Mountain and the signifi cant growth that's taking place have is to whether or not or how the ministry is keeping on Burke Mountain. Th ere are some 8,000 residents that in touch, in contact, with school districts and municipal- have moved in there, and it's projected to go to around ities and local government to ensure that those school 25,000 over the next number of years. sites that we're going to need are there. Initially, the school district wanted a high school, In the area known as the Dominion Triangle you'd be thinking that that was going to be where much of the de- hard-pressed to fi nd an area for a school site. Th at is go- mand was going to be. As it turned out, the demograph- ing to have signifi cant pressure in terms of school bound- ics have not been on a high school requirement but more aries and the populations for a number of schools in that have been young families with young kids, so the need area and will also impact, I think, on Burke Mountain. I has been for an elementary school. would encourage the ministry to work with the school I know the school district has been in contact with the district on addressing that particular issue. 3330 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

Hon. P. Fassbender: I appreciate those comments. I tinue to fund Decoda, presumably to the amount that can assure you…. the Finance Committee said — the full amount, the $2.5 I did not, yet again, introduce staff that are supporting million. But I guess the question is: when was the minis- me here today. I have my deputy minister, Rob Wood. ter planning on letting Decoda and the literacy organiza- Th e superintendent of achievement, Rick Davis, is here. tions, like Literacy Alberni in my constituency…? When Our resource management ADM, Deborah Fayad, is here. will they be let know that the money is there, the full Th e executive director of the capital projects, Joel Palmer, funding is there? Th ey are under the impression that it's is here as well. Joel, particularly — along with other mem- not there. Again, this is for this fi scal, 2014-2015. bers of the ministry staff , but particularly himself — is very creative in working with the school districts on shift - Hon. P. Fassbender: When the decision was made ing demographics. to ensure that the full funding was done, I immediate- [1505] ly phoned the chair of Decoda and informed her. Th e What we have encouraged, as well, and I think the money, from my understanding, has been transferred to member knows this, is for school boards to sit down Decoda for this year. Th e allocation to the various groups in a much more robust planning process with their lo- is done by Decoda, not the provincial government. cal governments so that when local governments make We originally had a discussion where there was a ques- shift s in priorities or in land use plans, the school dis- tion whether or not we would be fully funding them. We trict is engaged in that at a very preliminary stage so that did make the commitment of $1 million plus an addi- we can start projecting much better to the future. We're tional $500,000, and then I informed her that we were only as good as the numbers that we can project based able, through effi ciencies that ministry staff were able to on those plans. fi nd, to top them up to the full $2.5 million in this fi scal. Our commitment, as the ministry, is absolutely to Th ey, I think, were lobbying very hard even before the work closely with school districts to make sure that we decision was made. Th eir members were concerned that are as far out of growth and projected increases as we funding might be cut back. I think there's a crossover of can be, realizing that sometimes even the projections previous communication, or it may be that there are or- that were given are not realized because the family make- ganizations that Decoda has determined they're not go- ups that move into areas are not what people anticipate. ing to fund at the same level. I can't speak to that because Th at's always a challenge. We do the best we can with the I don't know what they've done with the funding we've best information that we get from the district. provided, but our funding for this fi scal is secure.

Th e Chair: Member for Alberni–Pacifi c Rim. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th e $2½ million — I know last year the minister claimed that the S. Fraser: Th ank you, hon. Chair. You're prescient. I full $2½ million was there. Th at was including the half a hadn't even stood up yet. You knew I was standing up, so million dollars that was for the Raise-a-Reader program. I must have looked anxious. So that's just a fl ow-through. I mean, that was never…. Th anks to the minister and your staff for being here to- The full $2.5 million historically never included the day. I don't have much time, so I'll go right to literacy pro- Raise-a-Reader funding. grams and Decoda funding. Th e minister knows I raised [1510] this in question period on April 8. On that, the minister I know the minister even said in question period…. In said he was correcting me — that the facts are that "this his response he suggested that "Decoda is the one who government did maintain 100 percent of Decoda fund- makes the decisions on local funding to community ing this year," that there were no cuts and that they con- groups, not this ministry or this government." Th e min- tinue to invest. Th is is April 8 — so this year, this fi scal. ister just repeated that. Th at's 2014-15. There is no discretion for Decoda in dealing with Th e same day the minister stated that in the Legislature, Raise-a-Reader. It's just a fl ow-through, in my under- a letter went out to all the members of the Select Standing standing. Th at isn't going towards the community co- Committee on Finance, who unanimously recommended ordination, the coordinators — the $2½ million that has the full $2.5 million be provided annually to Decoda for historically been there. their great work with the literacy programs through- What is the amount for community coordination? out the programs. Th ey say in the letter to the Finance Again, the recommendation from the Finance Committee Committee members: "Our concern at this time is that was clear: $2½ million, otherwise there are cuts to local we know of no fi nancial commitment for community agencies for sure in my constituency — Bamfi eld, Tofi no, literacy coordination in the 2014-2015 budget year, put- Ucluelet, and certainly out of Literacy Alberni. ting the community literacy work in jeopardy yet again." I'm pleased with the minister's answer that indeed the Hon. P. Fassbender: I think there's historical context full funding is there and that the government will con- here as well. We have worked with Decoda. Our intent Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3331 was to hold them to a $1 million cap from government. Our challenge, of course, as I've been saying, within Th at does not include what they were receiving from our fi scal framework is that there are only so many dol- Advanced Ed or from Jobs. Th is year they lobbied very lars available, and discretionary grants are year by year. heavily that they would have to make some signifi cant Th ere is no guarantee that they're going to continue. We, cuts if they were held to $1 million. again, took the recommendations from the Standing Raise-a-Reader has been in place for about three or Committee on Finance. We're trying to see what options four years, and it is defi nitely a fl ow-through. Th at said, we have available for them and will continue to work with this year if you take the $500,000 out, it's $2 million they them and communicate where we're at with them. are receiving now. Th ey received that the year before, so we've kept that level. V. Huntington: Last estimates I canvassed the issue We've encouraged them to look to other sources, as of busing and transportation. It may already have been well, in terms of community fundraising. When I met canvassed by my colleagues, but I am absolutely deter- with the board and we talked about the fact that we were mined to bring up the issue again on behalf of the resi- limiting their funding to $1 million initially this year, dents of Delta. they said they didn't have time to broaden their envel- I met with ministry offi cials late last summer to dis- ope and to look at other sources of revenue. Th at's why cuss the issue of the student location factor. During es- we worked very hard to see if we could take them up to timates the minister commented that there were fi ve or the $2 million level for this fi scal, and we were able to do six districts that he knew of that were having diffi culty that. Th e $500,000 absolutely is a direct fl ow-through. with the busing of students and that the student location factor would be reviewed in respect of those fi ve or six S. Fraser: I am running out of time. In essence, though, districts. Th at was done, and we were advised that there the funding for community outreach coordination is would be no change to that factor. down half a million dollars from historic levels. I don't Then again, I understand that Peace River North, mean from last year. school district 60, also complained and in March was [1515] once again told that the student location factor would Last year there was only $1 million budgeted, as the not be changed. Th e funding allocation branch said at the minister said, but at the very end of that fi scal — the time that it would continue to review the funding alloca- last week, I think — another $1 million was put in there. tion formula and will seek ways to improve the formula. Th at's a very diffi cult way to run an organization, any [1520] kind of organization. Th e minister is nodding in agree- I wonder if the minister could explain the nature of ment. that ongoing review of the funding formula. What's be- Th ey're going to be short half a million. I know that ing considered? Can we ever expect to hear an improved Literacy Alberni is already facing federal cuts on English result for some of these districts that are having extremely as a second language and others. Th ere's not a lot of diffi cult problems with the busing issue? money out there. Th e Finance Committee was very, very clear in their Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member is well aware that recommendation to continue the historic levels of $2.5 the Technical Review Committee met with the districts million for coordination. Is the money, the $2 million that had indicated they have some challenges. Th ey did — which is short, which I would argue is not in keeping a very robust review. with the recommendation from the Finance Committee From my perspective — the report that I received, and — available now? Or are they going to have to wait till the when I was in some of the other districts — this subject end of year-end fi scal to try to deal with this? How do keeps coming up. I think the member needs to under- you run an organization like that? stand that one of the challenges is the way the funding formula currently exists. Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member is right. We have Transportation is part of block funding. The deci- budgeted, clearly, $1 million. We were able to fi nd the sions on the provision of transportation, of course, are other $1 million. Th eir fi scal year is the same as the gov- the local school district's purview. But in those cases ernment fi scal year. Th ere is no guarantee for next year, where there may be extenuating circumstances…. Some because these are discretionary grants. When I met with of them are that students in some areas have to cross them, I suggested that they do need to look to the future mountains. Th ey're in very remote areas. Th ey may have in terms of other sources. to take ferries. Th ere are farming communities that have We're working with them. We're looking at some op- great distances. tions. Staff is developing some options moving forward. Th e Technical Review Committee looked at that, and I did say to them, and I repeat here, that the work they the decision was made not to change it. Th e reason was…. do at the community level is of great benefi t for a var- As we review the entire funding formula, one of the iety of reasons. challenges is if you make a change to the transportation 3332 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

component within the block, then there is a ripple eff ect By the same token, I look at districts like Surrey, which throughout the rest of the block. If you change something is growing every month in terms of population and the here, you're going to have to take it from somewhere else. amount of growth in school children as a result of it, the We feel it's very important that we take a look at the factors that contribute to it, immigration — all of those whole funding formula, of which transportation is one things. We're working with each individual school dis- of the components within the block. We're committed to trict to look at it. doing that, as I've said in this set of estimates. I was visiting a school. I opened a new school in Surrey. Staff is working on that, and there will be dialogue with I had the offi cial opening, and the principal told me that all of the districts in terms of the eff ects. We're going to while we had capacity for 555, they only had 325 at that be working with the BCSTA on a review of the funding point. But she said: "We just have three new kindergarten formula to make sure that we look at it from the point classes that we've signed up for September, so we know of view of where we are today and where we need to be the growth is coming." I'm glad we were able to build a tomorrow. school with a larger capacity to meet that growth. There are other districts, like Langley, where we V. Huntington: I appreciate the ripple eff ect that the planned. Building a new high school is not something minister speaks of, but I would also respectfully suggest you do overnight, as I'm sure the member is well aware. that the student location factor is too rigid. It's incapable Th e high school was projected at a certain number. It's of the fl exibility needed for these exceptional circum- already over capacity. So they're already planning, before stances. I really have always believed that ministers are they fi nish building the building, to put some — what there especially to deal with those exceptional circum- I think are not what most people think of as portables stances that crop up every once in a while. — modular classrooms on that site, because the growth I would really urge the minister to take a very personal that's actually come because of the growth that the mu- interest in this issue. I suspect that Peace River North has nicipal government has allowed, in terms of density, is an issue of extremely dangerous natural resource roads. now resulting in students that they hadn't projected I don't know if your Technical Review Committee has years before. gone up there and taken a look at the huge trucking busi- One of the reasons we're looking at the funding formu- ness in the oil and gas sector, but it is a dangerous system. la is to give us some more fl exibility in that area. You look Children really have to be hauled in from long distances at Langford, here on Vancouver Island, one of the faster- in a dangerous road situation. growing school districts. You look at the school district Similarly, Delta, which you know…. Th e students there of Surrey. Th ere's moderate growth in other districts, like in the agricultural areas are being forced to cross four ma- Delta. Fift y-fi ve is manageable growth. jor highways. It's dangerous, it's increasingly unaccept- Is that going to explode? When I look at what Delta is able, and the parents are having a very, very diffi cult time. doing or not doing in terms of densifi cation and so on, I would very much urge the minister to consider the it depends on…. What is that going to result in? We're exceptions that have to be looked at in this case and to working with them and the school district to see if we can take that personal interest that's required to resolve this project what impact it's going to have. Th e review of the issue. funding formula is going to be done to take out some of Perhaps I could just ask another question quickly. those inequities that the funding formula has shown us Some years ago decreasing enrolment, we were advised, as a result of that. would start to turn around about 2014. Th at is indeed [1530] happening, at least in Delta. We have seen a slight bump I think we're all optimistic, with the growth in our — 55 students, I believe. economy and with industry moving ahead, that we're go- [1525] ing to have growth in the province of British Columbia. I'm wondering what the ministry is doing in its long- Th at's a good thing on one hand. It poses the challenge term analysis of how to adjust for the increases of enrol- in communities. ment between now and, say, 2020. We're looking at some of the northern districts right now where we have job growth coming. Is that going to Hon. P. Fassbender: One of the greatest challenges, I result in students, or is it something that will be a con- think, in communities and in the school system is pre- struction growth for a period of time and then the actual dicting real growth. However, the indications, if you full-time labour force that might be left in certain com- were to use Stats Canada…. I have challenges with their munities, not all of them, may not result in additional numbers, sometimes, in certain areas. Th ey've predicted students? We're doing the best we can. growth over the last fi ve years, and it hasn't been realized. Th e review of the funding formula will give us, I hope, What they predicted fi ve years ago — if we would have in the future, more ability to be fl exible and ensure that used that as our means to project where we were going we try and meet all of the districts' needs — those that to be, we would have been wrong. are declining and those that are increasing. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3333

V. Huntington: I won't ask a new question, but just so that there is a timeline they can start to work on and very briefl y…. Does that answer mean, then, that we can then have the parents agree, or at least have some under- anticipate the Education budget expanding in order to standing, that their kids someday will be in a real class- cope with projected growth between 2018 and beyond, or room? Can the minister say when we can expect some are we looking at a demand that the school district start funding, a capital funding announcement to build more absorbing it within their core budgets at the moment? schools? [1535] Hon. P. Fassbender: I am not going to make any pre- dictions on the budget at this stage. What I will say is Hon. P. Fassbender: I'm sure the member is aware of that we are hoping that the provincial economy expands, these numbers, but I'm just going to run over them. Since that we maintain our balanced budget, that we pay off 2001 we've spent over $300 million in the city of Surrey. our debts so that we can start investing in critical issues We have just recently, as he's aware…. Panorama Ridge like health care and education and other social services. and Fraser Heights — we've done additions to those I am not the Minister of Finance. I'm a member of cab- two to deal with the growth that's there. I just opened inet in my role as a minister. We're looking at the pres- Goldstone Elementary School. sures. Th e fi rst thing we have to do is to build the strong Katzie in Clayton has moved ahead. We have and are economy so that we have the resources to invest. waiting for the project scope and the fi nal documentation for the high school in Clayton. We have worked with the H. Bains: My question to the minister will be, ob- Surrey school board and the city of Surrey on the Clayton viously, about Surrey, district 36. Th ere's a general ques- high school and are looking at some other potential part- tion, and then there are a couple of specifi cs that I would nerships that might be attached to that. We have acquired move to. two new sites in South Surrey in the Grandview area. Th e general question is around the overcrowding of I will say this to the member. I know that everybody Surrey schools, as the minister fully well knows. Th ere says that portables are terrible and we need to get kids was some funding, capital funding that was allocated, I out of them. At some risk, I'm going to say this. I'm not think about a year ago. I believe it was in the amount of so sure that portables are the worst things in the world about $120 million. Th at would give us some expansions if we have need and we can accommodate students in a and some new schools. warm and safe environment. I've been in a number of Th at, according to the ad hoc committee and according the portables. to the school board, according to…. Everyone involved Th roughout my high school career I spent time in in education in Surrey is saying that that probably goes, portables the entire time, and I'll tell you: they weren't at best, about half of where they should be even today. anything like the modular facilities that we now use. Th ey're looking at capital expansion of about $273 mil- Some of them are very nice facilities, and we try and re- lion in order to accommodate all the students that are in act. I mean, ideally every child should be within a single the system today. building, within classrooms and that. But when we can't When you consider that close to 7,000 students are in do that because of growth, we need to accommodate the portables today, and it will take a few years to build these kids and ensure that they can stay as close to their neigh- new schools with the funding that was allocated…. Th e bourhoods as possible. growth in Surrey that the minister just mentioned will So we're working very closely with Surrey. Surrey is continue to increase. Th at was projected ten years ago, 20 probably one of the most creative school districts that I've years ago, and it will continue to grow. People are moving had the opportunity so far to deal with. Th e city of Surrey into Surrey at the rate of about 12,000 a year. is being very cooperative in looking at where growth…. We know the demand is there. We know the need is We've even had some developers who have fl oated the there. We're not even where the current population is. ideas by Surrey, which we've talked about, in terms of Th ere will be more people moving in, and there will be them actually being creative and building schools and higher demand. looking at some sort of a formula. Th ose are unique new approaches that we are looking [D. Plecas in the chair.] at. We want to make sure that they're in the best inter- ests of the taxpayers and the communities and that all of My question to the minister is…. We keep on getting those things come together. the same answer year aft er year from every minister Th is But Surrey is absolutely a priority, and it's not just be- minister gave us the same answers last time, but I'd like cause that's my riding in Surrey, as well, but because the to have some specifi c timelines. pressure is there. We recognize it, and we are continu- When will the minister be able to convince his col- ing to work with the Surrey school district to meet those leagues at the cabinet table to have some more capital needs. available, capital funding available, to build more schools [1540] 3334 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

H. Bains: I'm so disappointed. I expected better from Hon. P. Fassbender: Catching up on the question be- this minister, being from Surrey. Obviously, we're not fore we had to depart for a bit. Th e member, I'm sure, is going to get the answer. It was a very simple question: is aware that language programs, any immersion programs, there any plan to have additional capital funding coming are at the discretion of the school district. Th e ministry than the list the minister has read? is not directing those. Th ey are permissive. I'm going to move on. Th e people will know exactly I would appreciate the name of the school. I don't ex- where this government is coming from. pect…. Th ere are some specifi c issues that I want to draw the [1555] minister's attention to because of the time. Th e Punjabi Language Education Association has brought this issue Interjection. of Punjabi in schools. In 1994 this policy was adopted by the government here that would allow students to take Hon. P. Fassbender: Chimney Heights. We will con- Punjabi, Mandarin and other languages as a second lan- tact the school district and see what we can fi nd out about guage during their time. that cohort of young people who seem to want to be able Right now the Surrey schools, because of the resources, to do that. Th e challenge, of course, is a qualifi ed teacher have put three schools…. Surrey Newton, Beaver Creek in all of those, which should not be a problem in Surrey. and Strawberry Hill — all of the Punjabi classes are there. I don't want to say that unequivocally until we actually But at a school like in Chimney Heights, there are 36 stu- have the conversation, but I commit to the member that dents who have signed a petition that they want to have a we will do that. Punjabi class as a regular class in their school. At fi rst, the H. Bains: I would appreciate if you could cc me the principal said they had never heard of the program. Now response that you receive and any position that you have they're saying: "Well, we don't have funding." Th e school taken. Th ank you. It is the Chimney Heights school that board said: "We don't have funding. We don't have the I mentioned. space. We don't have…." All kinds of excuses. Th ey said: Th e other issue I spoke to the minister on earlier, a "Unless we get additional funding from the government, couple of weeks ago. It's about Khalsa School, which is a we cannot provide you with that service." private school. Th ere are some serious issues for parents, Th e promise that is made to all these students who for students. Th ere are about 70 students who have signed have a diff erent language…. Th ey want to take Punjabi. a petition. I'm sure the minister may have received that Punjabi is more and more in demand for economic rea- letter on behalf of the students. Th ere are some issues sons and to protect their heritage as Canadian citizens. about education, the quality of education, the treatment. If you look at the students who are living in the min- All of that is listed in the letter. ister's riding, they have to take Punjabi…. Th ey want to Because of lack of time, I just want to leave it with the take Punjabi. Chimney Heights is not too far from where minister. Is the minister is going to respond to those stu- the minister is. For them to travel all the way to the other dents, to the parents on how to address those concerns? side of Surrey…. Surrey is a pretty big city geographically. For them, going back to the board isn't good enough be- How is that fair to the students who want to take Punjabi? cause they're not getting anywhere with the board. Th e government promised that they can have Punjabi Th e minister…. Because they're getting some funding where there is a demand, but because there are no re- for the school, there is some responsibility on the prov- sources, they can't have Punjabi in their school. incial government. I think the students and parents de- Th e proof is here. Th ere are 36 students who said, "We serve an answer from the minister. What is the minister want to have Punjabi," who are moving from grade 4 to 5, going to do to make sure that their issues are identifi ed but they're not off ered that Punjabi class in their school. and addressed and the education standards are met? I I'm asking the minister: can you work with the school would ask the minister to cc me any correspondence that board, provide them the resources that they need so you have in reply to the parents and students. Because of that they can have Punjabi in their school, in their own a lack of time, maybe the minister can respond, or maybe neighbourhoods? we can move on.

[Th e bells were rung.] Hon. P. Fassbender: I have not personally seen the letter. It may be in my offi ce, but I've not seen it. I will Th e Chair: Th is committee stands recessed until aft er ask, and I will look into it. Th e one issue that the mem- the division. ber did talk to me about was resolved. Perhaps there are other issues that you're alluding to. We'll make sure that Th e committee recessed from 3:43 p.m. to 3:54 p.m. we look into it.

[D. Plecas in the chair.] C. Trevena: I have just one question for the minister, Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3335

although I represent three school districts, school dis- Impact to learning. He talked about the removal of the tricts 85, 84, and 72. It's a question about school district Monday-Tuesday…. Sorry, I'll go back. He did mention 72. I know the minister did visit school district 72 not some of the impacts from the ferry to Prince Rupert and long aft er he was appointed. how that has some consequences. He talks about: Th e budget for school district 72 this year is going to "Th e removal of the Monday-Tuesday ferry from Skidegate to have a $912,000 shortfall, a $1.2 million shortfall next Prince Rupert will mean, inevitably, a reduction in the amount of student travel to the mainland for events, such as our university year and $1.6 million the year aft er that. Th e school board, tours and a girls' volleyball tournament. Simply put, we cannot as the minister is well aware — he was full of praise when aff ord to keep students out of regular classes and in hotels and he came to visit — has done everything possible to ensure gyms for a further two days. Th e same will be true of cultural visits, that students get a high quality of education. But there is exchanges and the like" — coming from Haida Gwaii, of course. nothing, absolutely nothing, left to cut, and they are fa- I know this is out of your realm, but I'd love any op- cing a serious fi nancial shortfall there. portunity to highlight some of the challenges that we I'm wondering if the minister can explain to me, and I face in the north. can relate that to the school board, how they're supposed Even high school students that have orthodontic work to plan for the coming years. in Prince Rupert used to take Monday off school and get to Prince Rupert Monday evening. Th e orthodon- Hon. P. Fassbender: I did visit the district. Th ey are tist, who's a visiting orthodontist, would stay open and doing some innovative things that I saw at the high do a night clinic and service all the kids on Haida Gwaii. school with Canfor and with other partners, including Then they would get back on the ferry and arrive in the Ministry of Forests. From what I saw, the outcomes Haida Gwaii on Tuesday morning and go to school from of that are to the benefi t of the students that they have. the ferry. Th at's no longer an option because they would [1600] subsequently have to take three days off school. Now the Th eir per-pupil funding is $9,135, which is up from question is: do you take that much time off school and $6,000 in 2000-2001, yet they've had signifi cant reduc- service your braces or not have orthodontic work? tion in enrolment. Th eir overall capacity utilization is one He also talks about reductions in correspondence and of the lowest in the province at 78.8 percent. external support. Th e challenge for them — and I did discuss this with "Many specialists, both directly utilized by the district and those used by the community in the medical, dental, maintenance and them when I met with them — is that they've got a very psychoeducational fi elds rely on this ferry. Some will either not low utilization of capacity. Th ey have declining enrol- come, or we'll have to increase costs. Th ese costs are, in turn, sup- ment. Th ey're challenged. Th ey are doing some creative ported by the district, which, of course, is reliant on Ministry of things. I think they have to make some of those choices Education funding." that all of the districts and the province face when it So again, he's just fl agging some of these challenges. comes to the fact that we don't have additional dollars "An impact on innovation, cost savings and efficiencies. As superintendent of a small, remote and shrinking district, I am at this point. tasked with providing a quality education to the students of Haida Gwaii. First, the removal of the late-evening ferries from Alliford J. Rice: Speaking of visiting districts, we all think we're Bay means our board of education will be unable to hold board special and we all think our constituencies are special, but meetings in Sandspit. Our board prides itself on meeting in all our communities, and this will no longer be the case." I do think that some of the needs in rural communities [1605] are pretty unique. I'll move on. Lastly: On that note, I wanted to ask about school district 50, "Attracting quality employees. Retaining excellent employees which is on Haida Gwaii. I'm actually just sort of trying is important in remote locations, and further service erosion will a diff erent venue. Th e superintendent for school district make this more challenging, which in turns has a spiralling eff ect 50 had written a letter to the Minister of Transportation on educational service in our district. Even within our district this change will mean it will be impossible for qualifi ed teachers living in November and didn't hear a response. Subsequently on Moresby Island to work long term on Graham Island and vice he wrote a letter to B.C. Ferries in March of this year and versa, further eroding the economic viability of these communities, didn't get a response. So I did say that I would try a dif- as well as the B.C. Ferries utilization." ferent venue, just in relation to how the recent cuts and Th at's from the superintendent/secretary-treasurer of changes to B.C. Ferries may have saved money in one school district 50, written November 27 to Minister area but have downloaded costs into another department. Stone. I wanted to highlight that. I am getting to a question, believe it or not. I just I just wanted to paraphrase some of the points that he wanted to actually highlight some of the points that he made in a letter to Minister Stone on November 27. It's made in his March 31 letter which he wrote to Peter how the recent…. Th is is in relation to the Kwuna, which Simpson, director of fl eet operations of B.C. Ferries, be- is the little ferry that runs between Moresby and Graham cause he didn't hear anything back from the Minister of islands. I hope that makes sense. Most people are like: Transportation. "Th e who and the where?" He's talking about the adjustment schedule, which is 3336 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

happening during the current school year. My question to the minister is, I think, pretty straight- "We now have to move our entire bus schedule by about fi ve forward. Where does this particular project, in terms of minutes to allow the students from Sandspit to return home at a funding, sit in the list of priorities for the ministry? reasonable hour." [1610] Sandspit is on the lower island, which is Moresby Island. "If they miss the 3:40 ferry, there are issues concerning super- vision…." Hon. P. Fassbender: I think the member would be pleased to know that the deputy attended that school Th e Chair: Member, do you have a question? in 1982. Even then it was old. It's about a 100-year-old school. J. Rice: I do have a question, actually. I'm getting to Right now that particular school is not in the capital it, if you could just let me fi nish this one last paragraph. plan. Our ministry staff are well aware of the condition. "If they miss the 3:40 ferry, there are issues concerning super- Th e gentleman, Joel Palmer, who's behind me with the vision that I do not think the government considered when they grey tie — which he has on today, compared to what he reduced our funding envelope. As a consequence, our entire wore yesterday…. Sorry, I had to do that. He's well aware south-end schedule has been altered, including shortening a lunch break at one elementary school to accommodate this. Th ere are of it and working with them. potential costs to this change, both fi nancial and educational, for Th e district needs to look at their priorities, and they've the school district. done a good job in keeping that school up. I saw another "Th en secondly, the impact of the scheduled change makes it one up in Cranbrook the other day that was 100 years potentially catastrophic for the people of Haida Gwaii. To expand old, and it is in need of help as well. We're well aware of our changing bus schedule in mid-year is diffi cult, impacting the summer tourism season, which would close down businesses, the challenges that they have. sending people off the island for work, which in turn creates an I'm also pleased to know that the parents in that com- economic death spiral." munity are pleased with the learning outcomes of their What he's asking is that B.C. Ferries delay the sched- students in the school, which is a testament to the CUPE uled shift for the ferries until September so that they can workers and the maintenance that they do on the school, actually just get through the rest of the school year. Th at and the dedication of the staff . Th e member's comments would be my question to the minister: if he would be are noted, and we'll continue to work with them. willing to advocate with other ministries or B.C. Ferries I don't have a deadline in terms of when we may be or his colleague in the Ministry of Transportation to al- able to move ahead on that. low the ferry schedule to return back to normal, to allow them to get through the rest of the school year. Th ey've M. Elmore: Th anks for the opportunity to pose a few actually also had to renegotiate contracts with bus pro- questions to the Education Minister. viders, etc. I wanted to raise some questions of concern in Th ank you for your patience in that long preamble. Vancouver-Kensington, particularly from John Oliver School, that have been brought forward to my attention. Hon. P. Fassbender: If the member could provide the Also impacting high schools is the possible elimination of letters, I will commit to talk to my cabinet colleague in the athletic director from Vancouver's secondary schools. the Ministry of Transportation. I'm not going to attempt It has been raised to me, certainly, the importance to answer the questions. It's not my responsibility. of having this coordinating position. It allows for, on the one hand, developing programs and also providing M. Mungall: My question pertains to Trafalgar Middle coaching for many teams. Oft en it's on a volunteer basis. School in Nelson, which is administered by Kootenay Coaches, teachers and students have advocated in terms Lake school district, SD8. I believe it was about five of bringing in athletic directors. It would certainly be a years ago that SD8 had put forward to the ministry that loss to the support of programs and athletic participants. the number one capital project that they wanted to take [1615] on next in terms of a school renewal was for Trafalgar Recognizing that athletics and sports play an import- Middle School. ant role in the public education system, there's concern I was just there a little while ago getting the tour of raised about the elimination of this position caused by some of the ancient plumbing and ancient infrastructure the funding shortfall at the Vancouver school board be- that is in that school — how it's starting to fall apart. Th e cause of the lack of a suffi cient budget. I'd like to raise school district has made that decision, that they see this that to the minister and ask for support for adequate as their number one priority for capital infrastructure, funding, specifi cally for this position of the district ath- to the point where they have looked at ways to make it letic coordinator. feasible so that it could be done sooner rather than later. One of the things that they've suggested is that the ele- Hon. P. Fassbender: We canvassed this yesterday. I'm mentary school, which is just a little bit down the road, sure you can read my comments from yesterday. But just would then become a part of that new build. to cut to the chase, the bottom line is the district makes Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3337

its choices based on the funding envelope that they have. I can table those and submit them to the minister. I As you know, the funding in Vancouver has been declin- appreciate that. ing, yet even at that, the per-pupil funding has been go- ing up. Hon. P. Fassbender: Mr. Chair, I'm not getting argu- We are working closely with the school district to look mentative here. We don't table things in estimates. You at their entire fi nancial picture. Th at's one of the reasons can pass them on, and they will be passed on to me. that we're working with them on a project offi ce in the If I'm correct, hon. Chair, I think that is the procedure, city of Vancouver — for the Vancouver school board to so I will receive those. Th ank you very much. deal with the number of challenges that they face, not the [1620] least of which is undercapacity in some areas. We continue to work with them. It's probably the single R. Fleming: I know, by agreement between the House school board that I have spent the most time with, and Leaders, that we'll end debate in a few minutes and re- our staff continues to work with them. But the choice sume tomorrow. I want to just ask the minister a few on the position is indeed the Vancouver school district's questions prior to that occurring. choice, not the ministry's. Th e question I wanted to ask is…. I'm aware that the Ministry of Education has leased space in downtown M. Elmore: Th is issue is being brought forward by the Vancouver at the SFU Harbour Centre. I'm just wonder- Vancouver Secondary Schools Athletic Association, the ing if the minister can give the costs for that space, the Vancouver Elementary Physical Activity Association and square footage as well. Th ere's concern that this space the Vancouver school board. is underutilized, and given its address in the downtown I'd like to talk about a petition. I can also table a copy, peninsula, it's pretty expensive space. So if the minister if the minister hasn't seen it. It's a petition to retain the has any details that he could share. valued services of children's support workers, and it's initiated from parents of kindergarten-to-grade-12 stu- Hon. P. Fassbender: I don't have the fi gures of the ex- dents in Vancouver's public schools concerned about the act square footage and the monthly lease cost, but I'll ask reduction to services for vulnerable and at-risk students, ministry staff to provide that. particularly the services undermining support and a I do want to say that I spend quite a bit of my time, loss of budget to fund Vancouver school board support when we're not sitting in Victoria and I'm not in Victoria, workers such as multicultural liaison workers, settlement in those offi ces with meetings with numerous stakehold- workers in schools and youth workers. ers. What I've clearly seen is there are many, many meet- There is a concern, particularly with youth work- ings of curriculum development committees from all ers, the engaged immigrant youth and SACY work- over the province that come in. We use that space. It's ers. Certainly, they provide important services in the used for many other factors of ministry operations. Vancouver school district, particularly in Vancouver- I believe that the space is not underutilized by any Kensington, and have a value to ensure that students are stretch of the imagination any time I've been in there. successful in their schools. I've seen a host of people tucked in various corners in Th is is, I think, a compelling petition that's come for- there. But I do commit that ministry staff will provide ward. I can forward you a copy of that, again, tabling the member with the monthly lease cost and also what the necessity of these services, these workers — the im- the square footage is. portance to support students and teachers in the school for success for students and also the diffi culty of declin- R. Fleming: Well, that'd be great. I appreciate the min- ing funding from the ministry to the Vancouver school ister's answer. I think a lot of offi cials from local gov- board. ernment have seen that space, and they thought it was pretty fancy and nice, but they just want to make sure Hon. P. Fassbender: I'll receive those comments, and that effi ciencies and that theme that is being pushed by the documents can be given to us. the Minister of Education isn't a one-way street. I'll look forward to getting some information that he can provide M. Elmore: I have a few letters that I have received on the costs of the ministry maintaining that space for from constituents of concern in terms of the ongoing use to have when the House isn't sitting and for meetings. discussions. I can table that and forward to you, from I want to ask the minister about independent schools, Tammy Lofstrom. As well, a letter from Ryan Hill, and a specifi cally what the agenda is that this government has letter from Carey Mahark, a letter from Trish Mugford for independent schools. and also a letter from Mia Stark, a parent from David We have been privy to some information that was Livingstone Elementary School, expressing concerns the subject of freedom-of-information requests about around a shortfall of funding and loss of services at the any plans that the ministry may have to change either Vancouver school board. the mandates or policies of the ministry relating to in- 3338 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

dependent schools. Th e FOI documents we've received crative business getting an increased amount of subsidy. back have been heavily redacted, so it's diffi cult to glean Th is is also, of course, competing with the public school anything about what the government's agenda might be distributed education systems that they have. around independent schools. I'm just wondering. Th e ministry documents that we We know they have an agenda, I would presume, be- have suggest that this policy change was a result of lob- cause there's a parliamentary secretary for independent bying done by the Federation of Independent Schools. schools. I would presume he's a part of some kind of gov- Is this part of a bigger agenda? Why was this decision ernment initiative, but we don't have anything on the re- made — at a time when you're rationing education for cord yet about what direction government may be taking the public system — to almost double, in some cases, with regards to independent schools. subsidies available to independent schools who do dis- I'm just wondering if he can describe any policy chan- tributed learning? ges that are anticipated with regards to funding or ad- [1630] ministration or oversight of independent schools in B.C. [1625] Hon. P. Fassbender: Noting the hour, I'll try and give as much information within the time that I have. Th e Hon. P. Fassbender: Before we note the hour and pro- member is correct in terms of the increases. Th e fund- vide opportunity for the next group to come in, to the ing policy change that was implemented in 2012-13 did member opposite: there are no anticipated policy chan- amend school funding to a percentage of the public DL ges. Our funding formula for independent schools re- provincial fl at rate, which is $5,851, instead of the local mains consistent. Th ey are an active part of the education district per-pupil amount as its base. Th ere is a separ- system in this province, and the province has been clear ate fl at rate. that we will continue to support independent schools. Th is change was made to address an inequity creat- Th ey participate in a number of initiatives within the ed when some of the independent DL schools were re- education system, as we're looking at curriculum de- ceiving greater grants than other independent schools. velopment, as we look at other policies that we would Th at created a signifi cant issue that we were made aware be doing within the entire education system. Th ey're an of — as compared to, even diff erent than, their public active participant in that. But there are no anticipated counterparts. policy changes, and I do not have anything more that I At this time the Federation of Independent School can add to that. Associations, FISA, argued that DL funding at 50 percent and 35 percent for group 1 and group 2 schools would R. Fleming: One of the areas that I could maybe de- create signifi cant pressures on these schools, to the point cipher where there has been a policy change is around where closure was necessary, yet the request for DL was distributed learning. B.C. has public and private systems increasing. Th ey lobbied for 62 percent of the public DL in distributed learning education that's delivered in B.C. fl at rate, or $3,627. Typically, many school districts have distance education Th e policy decision in the spring of 2013 has further school programs where they provide instruction for stu- increased independent DL funding rates to 63 percent, or dents. It's of very high quality — excellent supervision $3,686.13, and 44.1 percent, respectively, for the 2013-14 around exam results. Completion rates are good. year. What it does not do is signal any change in terms Th is is an area of growth on the private side that the of government policy as it relates to other aspects of in- minister will be aware of. While independent schools dependent schools. enrolment grows at something like 1 or 2 percent per Before I note the hour, I would like to say that at the year — it's a very modest rate — independent distribut- offices at suite 1550, 555 Hastings Street, the cost is ed learning has grown astronomically: 125 percent, from $154,000 a year, and the square footage is 310.92 square 4,300 FTEs to 9,700 FTEs, in 2012-2013 alone. metres for the facility. I would invite, if the member has The one policy change that I'm aware of that this not been there, to come and visit one day when I'm there, government has made very recently with regards to in- and I'll show him how well utilized it is. dependent education is that they increased the distrib- uted learning funding that private schools get. They Th e Chair: Minister, I think the member has another used to get only 50 or 35 percent as per the group 1 and question. 2 schools of the independent school section. Th ey now get 62 percent. In fact, I think it even increased inexplic- R. Fleming: Th ank you, Chair, and I thank the min- ably in 2013-14 to 63 percent funding. ister for both of those answers around the cost of the of- No wonder it's a growth industry. Th e subsidy that's fi ces. But maybe just one fi nal follow-up question to the available publicly — at a time of scarcity, as we've heard information he gave about the independent schools. Th is from this minister throughout this set of estimates — has is interesting. I mean, it was never done in the light of day. increased rather dramatically. It's a very profi table and lu- Th is is the creation of a brand-new category, if you will, a Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3339

new subsidy rate for independent education. been made, I would appreciate it if those are passed on Given everything that the minister has said to pub- to the ministry, and we will investigate those. I am con- lic education leaders about there being no money for all vinced, from what I've heard from many parents that I've sorts of unfunded cost pressures that they're facing, I talked to, in remembering that they have other sources fi nd it is interesting that there was money in 2012-2013 of funding besides ministry funding. Th ey do signifi cant to allow a dramatic 125 percent expansion of this line of fundraising activities across the spectrum. I think they business from independent schools and further subsidy do a good job in augmenting what they're doing. enhancements in the current fi scal year. With that said, I move that the committee adjourn de- It defi es the logic that the minister off ers on a regu- bate on Vote 18. lar basis, through the media and as we saw in question period today, to treat the private education sector with Motion approved. a generous new subsidy enhancement on a new line of business and to treat the public education system very Th e Chair: Committee A will recess for a few minutes much diff erently when they talk about the needs they while we wait for the next minister. have and the funding shortfalls they're facing. What my question is about, though, is quality. We've Th e committee recessed from 4:38 p.m. to 4:46 p.m. seen a dramatic expansion in the business end of distrib- uted learning by private education. [S. Sullivan in the chair.] [1635] I think the biggest provider in the province is Heritage ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF Christian. Th ey're quite large. Th ey certainly advertise a SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND lot in the National Post, and they off er free courses and SOCIAL INNOVATION free iPads — because they have a 63 percent subsidy be- hind them that the taxpayer provides — to enrol in their On Vote 40: ministry operations, $2,529,819,000. B.C. on-line schools. Th ey may well be providing a qual- ity product. I'm not here to say, because I don't know. Th e Chair: Mr. Minister, would you like to make a What I have distinctly heard is that there are some in- statement? dependent schools that are now in the distributed-learning business that have, fi rst of all, a 400-to-1 student-to-teacher Hon. D. McRae: I will be brief, because I know we're ratio, which is double what public schools have, and that starting a little late. I would like to start by introducing some of them are allowing students to write exams at home and thanking the ministry staff who are joining me here unsupervised. Now, that would present a serious comprom- today. To my right I have Sheila Taylor, who is deputy ise to the integrity and quality of Dogwood certifi cates be- minister for SDSI. To my left is Len Dawes, acting ADM ing issued if those are the examination conditions that are and executive fi nancial offi cer, corporate services div- being allowed. Th ese are specifi c complaints that I believe ision with the ministry. Behind me is Doug Woollard, have been brought to the ministry's attention. interim CEO of Community Living B.C. — and an We talked yesterday about international education amazing choir member as well, I hear. Other staff mem- here. Th e minister said that since 2012 his ministry has bers will join us later as we go, and I'll introduce them been trying to get better quality control on overseas as they come. schools. I would ask him: is there any plan to have bet- In a very brief statement, please let me take a moment ter oversight of domestic schools right here in British to discuss the progress we've made in serving people with Columbia — schools that are growing by leaps and developmental disabilities. I'm pleased with the progress bounds as a profi table industry because of the 63 percent being made at Community Living B.C. as the agency subsidy now provided by his government? continues to implement the recommendations made in These are serious allegations. I wonder if this is the deputy minister's 2011 review. Th is process supports something that has been brought to his attention and a sustainable and long-term strategy to strengthen sup- whether he's taken any action as a result of potential- ports for people with developmental disabilities and the ly unsupervised exams compromising the integrity of services that they rely on. graduation. Over the three-year fi scal plan, Budget 2014 allocates an increase of $243 million for Community Living B.C. Hon. P. Fassbender: A brief answer. Th ey are super- Budget 2014 realigns the CLBC budget based on 2013- vised, probably more rigorously than our off shore schools 2014 actual baseline costs to better refl ect maintaining are, on an ongoing basis because, indeed, they are here. existing services and accommodate caseload growth. Th ey are providing a quality education. CLBC's base budget is increasing to $800 million in If the member has any issues with any given school 2014-15, an increase of $71 million over the 2013-14 that he has been made aware of or allegations that have budget year. CLBC's total operating budget, including 3340 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

contributions from the B.C. government, is $827.2 mil- are provided — or trying to make sure the person is sup- lion for 2014-2015. ported in the way they are. Government will also increase CLBC's base budget As to a wait-list, we do not actually have wait-lists. by $20 million in each of the following two years. We're Requests for services are out there. We try to ensure we monitoring progress of the work underway at CLBC, and work with each individual client to try to provide them a we'll continue to do so. level of service. Of course, this is reviewed as their needs I thank CLBC in advance for the hard work they do for progress through the system. persons with developmental disabilities and their fam- ilies across the province of British Columbia. I look for- J. Kwan: I'm going to actually park this question, be- ward to the questions from the members opposite. cause I think it's going to take a long time to get to the bottom of it. In the briefi ng I did talk to the staff from J. Kwan: I thank the minister for his quick opening the minister's offi ce about the request for services infor- comments. As well, I thank the minister and his staff for mation, the lists and so on. I'm going to continue on that the half-hour briefi ng that I received, wherein we tried to discussion, in that vein, so that we don't actually spend get some questions answered, to which I received some time doing that. documentation about 20 minutes ago regarding the ques- I want to actually get into, very quickly, the increased tions that I had asked. costs imposed by government: for example, the new I have not had a chance to really go through that docu- statutory holiday cost; MSP premium plan increases mentation. So I'm putting it on the public record that — 25 percent increase; the minimum wage. All these from that briefi ng I may well have follow-up questions increases will of course have an impact in the cost of pro- from the documentation I have received. I would cer- viding services to individuals and families. Yet the gov- tainly appreciate the minister confi rming that I would be ernment, of course, does not provide additional funding able to do that at a later time. He can answer that ques- to the individuals or the families or the organizations tion, I know, quickly. who have to absorb these costs — which, of course, ul- I'm going to just race through these questions. We timately results in a reduction in services. have two hours — as I understand, less than two hours [1655] now — to ask all the questions around CLBC's budget. My question is: will the government commit to provid- I actually have a lot of questions that I have sort of for- ing the funding for these mandated increases, as per the mulated, along with many questions from stakeholders work of the government/non-profi t initiative, which rec- who wish me to put on the record these questions to the ommended that "a full-cost fi nancial model also empha- minister as well. sizes the need to put in place substantial funding models Knowing that we're going to run out of time to ask all for agencies delivering services to clients on behalf of of these questions, I also will ask the minister to confi rm government." Of course, there are no increases provided that if we're unable to answer all of these questions in this in their budget accordingly for these areas. session, that I would be able to do so with the minister I wonder if the minister can actually advise: how does either by writing or through a briefi ng at another time. he expect the organizations or those individuals to pro- [1650] vide the services that they need to provide when, in fact, With that, I'm going to just jump right into the ques- they're going to be faced with a shortfall with these man- tions. dated increases? As we know, so far there's been no reliable information with regards to wait-lists despite many, many requests. I Hon. D. McRae: Th e CLBC fund the increases for wonder if the minister can provide information about the municipal pension plan and Family Day stat. Th ey were current CLBC wait-lists, and if he doesn't have the infor- able to fi nd the moneys for that. Further expenses — for mation or if it takes a long time to gather all that informa- example, EI premiums — we allow service providers to tion, if he would commit to provide that to me in writing. off set against the funds from undelivered services that When I talk about wait-lists, I'm talking about all of the they provide. diff erent programming within the CLBC sector to which services are being provided to clients. J. Kwan: What about wage increases?

Hon. D. McRae: I think we canvassed this a little bit Hon. D. McRae: For the collective agreement that was last time. Th e request for service list is a way of provid- just signed this year — 2014, a fi ve-year agreement — the ing services for persons who are looking for services government is committed to providing the funding. from CLBC. An individual may come and request ser- vices, and they may request services — maybe three or J. Kwan: I'm sorry. Did the minister say that the gov- four or fi ve diff erent ones. Depending on the need at the ernment is providing the wage lift that was mandated for time and the opportunity of availability, those services the organizations? Will they actually fund it with addi- Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3341

tional funding, or is it with the existing budget that the organization does have concerns about how it will meet organizations are expected to pay out of? its service provision levels, CLBC is more than willing to [1700] work with them to see if they can fi nd a solution. But that has not happened yet. Hon. D. McRae: For the agreement signed in 2014, it is funded. J. Kwan: Yeah, just going back to the cooperative gains, with the exception of this, it is my understanding that J. Kwan: For the fi scal year of 2012-13, which would the organizations received a commitment from the gov- be the last fi scal year ending — right? —which these es- ernment side at the negotiating table that they would ac- timates would include, was that funded as well? tually get a lift in funding — in addition to the moneys that they got to deliver services — to meet the increase Hon. D. McRae: Th at was through cooperative gains. in demands that the government had mandated. Th at is the reason why the organization signed on to those col- J. Kwan: Was the lift funded? lective agreements and accepted it. [1705] Hon. D. McRae: By definition, no. It was through Th en of course, aft er the fact, all was forgotten, and cooperative gains. no moneys were forthcoming. Th e organizations had to somehow suff er through and manage without the addi- J. Kwan: In that vein, it does actually highlight the tional dollars, without somehow magically not cutting very essence of the problem, because the organizations services to their clients — which as I said, is not reality. were expected to actually reduce funding from other I wonder whether or not the minister has any docu- sources, and frankly there was really no other place to mentation whatsoever that would indicate that the reduce funding in the service which they delivered to government had, through somebody within his rep- their clients. resentation, made a commitment to organizations that Th e only place where they could have actually done they would actually fund those mandated wage increases that would be, of course, the reduction in programming. I outside of their existing budgets. know the minister would like to say that that doesn't hap- pen and is not real. In reality, it is, so let's just get that on Hon. D. McRae: Again, the whole definition of the record here. And that's not just on the wage increases; cooperative gains is that there is no new money on the it also includes MSP premium increases, municipal plan tables. CLBC, as far as I'm concerned — or am led to be increases and so on. aware — has no documentation and is not aware of any Aside from these increases in costs to organizations documentation where new moneys were promised. who are trying to provide for the services, there are also increasing costs in the cost of living, in and of itself. Food, J. Kwan: I just wanted to get that on the public record. utilities, fuel, insurance, rent — all of these items are in- Okay, moving back, then, to the question on increased creasing. Does CLBC have money in their budget to ad- costs for living in British Columbia. I don't believe the dress these cost pressures for service providers, or are minister actually answered the question on food, utilities, they expecting agencies to reduce services to individuals fuel, insurance, rent, which are all increasing for these or- and families? ganizations. Are they supposed to somehow…? Actually, how are they supposed to pay for these increases? Is that Hon. D. McRae: Just if we go back in history a little meant to be in such a way that they would have to reduce bit, under cooperative gains — and I know it was an issue services to their clients or families? that was front of mind, especially a year ago. If we use…. For example, there were 140 unionized service provid- Hon. D. McRae: Th e short answer is no. But that being ers working with CLBC. We asked service providers said, if a service provider did have a struggle fi nancial- who were challenged to meet savings in the cooperative ly to meet certain obligations — and obviously, service gains…. And again, those savings would be traditionally provision is something that we're very, very concerned through aspects like administrative savings or working about — they could approach CLBC and explain these with the family and the individual involved. Maybe the issues at any time. service would evolve to a diff erent place. So if the member opposite actually knows an organiza- Five organizations did come forward, out of the 140, tion in question that is having trouble meeting its service with concerns about how to meet the cooperative gains, demands, by all means, please encourage that organiza- and I'm pleased that CLBC was able to work with those tion to approach CLBC. I'm sure they'll be more than individuals. With the new collective agreement, just willing to work with that organization. signed recently, for fi ve years, my understanding is that no organization has come forward yet. However, if an J. Kwan: When the minister says that they would be 3342 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014 willing to work with the organization, what exactly does Hon. D. McRae: In 2014-15, CLBC is forecasting that mean? Would they be able to negotiate more dollars $14 million in recoveries. Again, that's for issues such for their operations? Or does that mean that they're go- as death, moving out of province, agreed-upon service ing to be told: "Sorry, if you can't meet these demands, changes. Th at $14 million goes right back into services, we're going to take your services, go somewhere else and though there is no guarantee that those services are go- ask someone else to do it"? What does that mean exactly? ing to be with the same organization. Also, because I know this also gets asked occasion- Hon. D. McRae: I'd prefer not to engage in hypothet- ally, there is no reduction in individual services without icals. If an organization is struggling, by all means, please agreement of that individual being served. have that organization come to CLBC, and we could have Th ere is, like I say, $14 million in recoveries that do that conversation with the said service organization. In come back through various means. that way, we're not going to guess about the speculation part of it. J. Kwan: Okay. So the minister is saying that all $14 It is really important to make sure that individuals million will go back into service delivery in the organ- realize that we want to make sure their service levels are izations — not to the same organizations but service de- what they've committed to and are adequate. If an organ- livery to organizations — and that is to say that this will ization does struggle…. Th ey could struggle for many, be a provision of new services. many reasons, hypothetically. For that reason, I'm sure CLBC would like to work with them individually if such Hon. D. McRae: Th e short answer is yes, in new or a problem does arise. additional services.

J. Kwan: Okay, then, on that basis, could the minister J. Kwan: The collective agreement, as the minister just confi rm on the public record that when an organiza- mentioned…. In this year the wage increases would be tion does come forward, they will not be penalized in any funded. Th at is the case, as I understand, for unionized way, shape or form? organizations. [1715] Hon. D. McRae: No, they will not be penalized. I think But for the non-unionized agencies, it is my under- an example of good will is that there were fi ve organiza- standing that they were referred back to specifi c fund- tions — when we talked about cooperative gains — who ing ministries to try to recover that cost. Is that correct? had issues. Th ey went forward to CLBC. Th ey were not If so…. I mean, in the provision of these services, how penalized. does the minister expect these organizations to actually Again, going forward, we can't predict what'll happen meet the increased cost that they're faced with? in the future and there are concerns. Obviously, we're very concerned about the individuals that those service Hon. D. McRae: For the 2014-2015 fi scal year going organizations do support. So again, if there is an issue of forward, based on the new contract — I'm sure the mem- note, please ask any of them — and if you're watching ber opposite is aware — there are no fi scal pressures be- on TV — to come forward to CLBC and express their cause it is zero percent this year. concerns. CLBC is more than happy to work with them. The non-union obviously do not have a collective agreement with government, so that's another issue. J. Kwan: Organizations are concerned; I can tell you However, the non-union organizations are in conversa- that. People are concerned about bringing the issues for- tion with CLBC as well. ward — not just organizations, families are. Th ey rely on the government for their services. When that happens, J. Kwan: Will CLBC commit to providing equivalent when people make these complaints, they feel that they funding increases for non-unionized agencies as well? are threatened in some way. Th at's real. [1710] Hon. D. McRae: I can't make that commitment right I'm glad to get this comment on the record from the now. However, there are ongoing conversations going government that there will be no threat to them in any forward. way, shape or form. Th at's now on the public record, and we'll hold that to account. J. Kwan: Th en I'll just simply say this. It is important I'd like to ask the minister this question. Every year a that these organizations do get their increases if they're portion of the CLBC funding is made available for new going to be faced with salary increases that they have to services when people move or pass away. How much has pay their staff . Otherwise, the minister can just imagine CLBC projected that it will need to fi nd savings from what the net result of that will be if they're not able to existing services this year to fund new service require- make those commitments with their existing budgets. ments? At the end of the day, it's a zero-sum game, and the Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3343

money has to come from somewhere. I know that the not CLBC will provide for funding to fi ll in the gap be- minister would agree with me that we would not want tween the cost of renting a home for a person in the com- to see the funding come out of service provision to the munity at the market rent, because the PWD amount clients. At the end of the day, I think the minister needs usually — the shelter amount — does not actually meet to step in and assist with that through his staff , through the cost of what the market is. CLBC. As the minister also knows, B.C. Housing's wait-list I'm going to move on to my next question. CLBC for access to aff ordable housing units is longer than, says they want innovation, and there is a need for pilot I think, my lifetime, until the end of this universe. projects regarding residential options, day services and Realistically, for people to access those units, it's almost employment. What funding models does CLBC have to zero. Eff ectively, those people that wish to live independ- support innovation? ently or semi-independently are severely curtailed be- [1720] cause they cannot aff ord to pay the rent in the market universe if they cannot access a B.C. Housing unit. Hon. D. McRae: I'll give the member opposite an ex- Following that, I'm asking the minister if CLBC would ample of how CLBC is supporting innovation. For ex- consider providing funding by way of bridging that gap ample, CLBC is working with Inclusion B.C. on a project between what they get with PWD and the market rent for shared living where the individual actually owns their so that they can actually achieve their goal of living in- own home and support is provided by a service provider. dependently or semi-independently. In regards to this innovative idea, CLBC is providing dol- lars for research and data collection to better inform the Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer to the member oppos- decision-making process. ite's question is no. We're not able to provide the fund- ing through CLBC for that funding gap, if you wish to J. Kwan: Maybe we can do it this way. If the minister describe it as such. However, that being said, CLBC con- can ask his staff to provide me, at a later time, a list of the tinues to work with individuals and B.C. Housing to see innovative approaches that CLBC has adopted, I would if we can provide solutions for housing needs. I know appreciate that, and to sort of outline for me how that it's never easy, but there have been many successes to works and what it is doing and the models that CLBC is date, and we continue to work with individuals to pro- using. I would appreciate that. I don't want to go into a vide housing. lengthy sort of answer back and forth around that, given the tight time limit that we have. If the minister can at J. Kwan: I will just simply make this comment, then. the next question please confi rm that on the public rec- I would urge the minister to consider that option and ord, I would appreciate it. evaluate each individual's needs accordingly and then Many of the people that organization supports want have fl exibility in their approach as opposed to simply to live independently and semi-independently, as the saying no across the board. Th e reality of that, particu- minister knows, in their own community. CLBC actually larly in some instances, is that the circumstances of those does not provide funding to address the gap between the individuals are so unique, and the communities in which housing amount that is provided to them through PWD. they live also demand fl exibility in the approach. I would Th erefore, many people are not actually able to reach the urge the minister to consider that and perhaps work in goal of living independently or semi-independently. collaboration with his colleague the Minister for Housing I wonder whether or not the minister would consider to fi nd solutions to that. funding the gap in those instances for those individuals. I'm amenable to government working across all Would that not be an innovative and eff ective way of branches to fi nd a way to make that a reality, even to helping people to achieve their goal of living independ- the point of actually accessing the Ministry of Health, in ently or semi-independently? terms of fi nancial support from that ministry, as a collab- oration to realize this goal. I'll leave that with the minister. Hon. D. McRae: In response to the fi rst question about Now, CLBC has indicated they'd planned to transfer providing a list, yes, by all means. A list will be provided. the administration of CLBC-contracted home-sharing As the member opposite knows, B.C. Housing is arrangements to service providers. Is this the case, and the primary agency responsible for housing in British has the necessary funding for this transition been estab- Columbia. CLBC does continue to work with B.C. lished? Housing to expand access for its people they serve in re- gards to aff ordable housing. [G. Kyllo in the chair.] [1725] Hon. D. McRae: CLBC has made the decision to grad- J. Kwan: Yes, I know, but that wasn't the question I ually transfer home-sharing from CLBC to agencies. Th is asked the minister. I'm asking the minister whether or includes the funding, which will also transfer. However, I 3344 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014 want to reinforce to the member opposite that this trans- J. Kwan: Th anks very much. Yeah, I guess those two fer is gradual. hours — every minute counts. [1730] I'd like to ask the minister actually, segueing into a dif- ferent area here…. Th e question centres around CLBC J. Kwan: Okay. I'm not quite sure that the minister has addressing the request for service list with respect to answered the question, and again we're pressed for time. transitioning youth. Th is is more specifi c. It's not just I wonder whether or not, then, on the question around on the overall but more specifi c with respect to transi- home-sharing, if the minister can ask the staff to outline tioning youth. for me what has been done, what budget has been allo- It is my understanding, and the minister's staff con- cated to get this work done and what sort of transition fi rmed, that the youth will receive $2,800 per year and we are looking at, the timeline and so on — all the details that those youth who require a higher level of service associated with this. If the minister can commit to pro- would receive more, although the $2,800 is not a max- viding that information to me. imum but a minimum. I just want to get that confi rmed from the minister. Hon. D. McRae: Th e answer is yes. It was a long quick [1735] question, and I know we are pressed for time, so we'll make sure we get the question off the Hansard, and we Hon. D. McRae: Th e families of the individual or the will provide that information. individuals are off ered the minimum, like the member said — and she was correct — of $2,800. Based on my J. Kwan: Th ank you very much, and I'll also have a experience, many times the families of the individual will list of questions, as well, because the government actual- use this for respite, but it is possible they could use it for ly came forward with a report called the Home Share employment or other supports that are necessary for the Service Review that was released on February 3, 2014. individual. Again, the $2,800 is off ered to everyone as a I had a brief discussion with the minister's staff in the minimum, but there could be more. briefi ng around this, but I have another list of questions J. Kwan: Can the minister confi rm that CLBC bases its coming out of that. resource allocation decisions on an individual's current For example, there was talk about a fi ve-year plan. disability-related needs and that these are determined, When can we expect the fi ve-year plan to be available? generally speaking, using the guide to support allocation, When would the detailed response to the Hughson report commonly known as the GSA? be completed? I did ask the minister's staff this question: Th is component of resource allocation relies on a de- why was funding for home-sharing not included in the tailed and accurate understanding of the individual and scope of this review? Th e minister's staff said that they their support needs, and therefore, the GSA allows an didn't actually have — the person or the organization analyst to consider information in ten areas and then as- who was doing the review — the expertise to look into sign a numerical level to an individual's disability-related that issue, as an example, so I would like to further elab- needs. Th erefore, it is a tool which CLBC uses to learn orate on that point. When will home-sharing funding about the individual's support needs and to make pre- be addressed, or will it be addressed at all? If so, when? sumably good decisions based on that knowledge. Can Other questions for the minister around that would the minister just confi rm that? be this shift from directly contracted home-sharing to agency-coordinated home delivery and what challenges Hon. D. McRae: Th e guide to support allocation is one this model has encountered, as an example, which fol- tool CLBC uses to understand an individual's current lows the line of questions that I was raising just previously. disability-related needs and to make decisions about the Anyway, I have a long list of questions regarding home- funding and services. Th e guide is completed by a facilita- sharing, and I'm reluctant to sort of read them all onto tor working with the family, and it focuses on an individ- the public record so as to not spend time doing that. ual's current support needs rather than needs that existed Maybe I can get a commitment from the minister to fol- in the past or those that may exist in the future. It can be low up with this, and then I can certainly pass on my reapplied at any time if an individual's needs do change. written questions to him accordingly. I think the min- ister is going to say yes, so I'll just wait for that answer. J. Kwan: I have a copy of Community Living B.C. Resource Allocation, a Practice Guide for Analysts and Hon. D. McRae: By all means, and thank you for ac- Facilitators, so the stuff that I just put on the public re- knowledging that there is minimal time, not enough time. cord is actually quoted from the document. I assume I Yes, please do provide with us a list of the questions. We'll read it correctly and understood it correctly. I just wanted make sure the CLBC gets them, and we'll answer as soon that confi rmation, and I think the minister just did con- as we can. fi rm that by adding some additional information to that. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3345

In that vein, I wonder: does anybody not get the full viduals as participants. funding which the guide, the resource allocation docu- In 2014 we have a 19-year-old young woman with in- ment, identifi es and has evaluated that the individual is tellectual disability, anxiety disorder and cerebral palsy. deemed to need at the level which they require? Does She uses a wheelchair for long distances, and both her anyone actually not get the funding level that has been parents are self-employed full-time in businesses. At dif- identifi ed by their GSA score? ferent times one or the other travels out of the country [1740] for work, sometimes for a month at a time, leaving the other parent to run their business full-time and try to Hon. D. McRae: Funding for individuals is prioritized cope with her complex behaviour. based on most urgent need. As the individual's need Th e participant has been assessed at a level 4, based changes, it is reallocated or relooked at or re-examined on the government's own tool, requiring 17½ hours as they go forward. per week of day supports. However, her mother has been given the heads-up by a CLBC facilitator that she J. Kwan: Th e minister didn't answer my question. I'm should not expect more than $2,800 in respite fund- asking whether or not anybody who has been assessed ing. Th e family is unsure as to what to do and what they under this document that says Resource Allocation, A will do if services for their daughter are not funded by Practice Guide for Analysts and Facilitators to Determine CLBC. Th ey need services beginning in late June of 2014, the Individual's Needs and then they're assigned a GSA and the family is exhausted by the complex behavioural score — called the guide to support allocation score…. needs of their daughter. Th ere are no other family sup- Did any of those individuals who have received their port networks that they can rely on in their community. score receive less funding than what the score indicates Example 1. they should be getting? Example 2. Th e participant turns 19 in November 2014. However, he wishes to "graduate with his classmates" and Hon. D. McRae: Th e score on the guide does not cor- does not wish to return to high school for another year. relate to any immediate funding. It all depends on the He has an intellectual disability. As of April 24, 2014, individual and the needs that they do have. his family has not been advised what his GSA score is, though they suspect it is likely going to be a level 4, which J. Kwan: Well, then let me ask this question. Does the would mean that the individual would require 17½ hours minister consider approximately 140 hours of support a per week. Both his parents work and are unsure how to year, which equates to about 2.5 hours per week, adequate handle his day supports if CLBC does not provide fund- for a transitioning youth who has been assessed by CLBC ing when he turns 19, given he is adamant about not re- as needing 17 to 23 hours per week? turning to school. [1745] Th e family needs services to begin in September 2014 using MSD funds, with CLBC funds to take over when Hon. D. McRae: There are certain circumstances the young man turns 19. We don't know yet what the where not every service requested is able to be provided. funding's going to be, but if it's going to be the base level CLBC remains in contact with families and re-examines of $2,800, it's not going to meet the needs. Th en there services as necessary or as circumstances change. is the complexity of the person not wanting to stay in school. As a result, there are no supports in terms of day J. Kwan: The minister didn't answer the question, programs, creating a huge problem for this individual. either, that I put to him about whether or not he thought [1750] it was adequate for someone who is assessed, based on Another participant, No. 3 in 2014, is an 18-year-old the government's own assessment tool, to require 17 to male who turns 19 in June 2014. Th ese are, therefore, 23 hours of funding support to only receive 2½ hours. transitioning youths. He has an intellectual disability and Th at's a simple question. I think common sense will tell poorly controlled and unpredictable epilepsy, which can the minister that the answer is a short no. result in individual seizures with injury if he's standing I know what the minister is trying to do: to evade or in a dangerous location. He wears a helmet at all times answering the question with some other answer. Th at to avoid further head injuries. Clusters of seizures, up to doesn't erase the fact that this is the reality — what fam- 16 an hour, can happen unpredictably and require con- ilies are faced with today. stant supervision and the administration of emergency Let me give just the minister some examples of indi- medication until they stop. Clusters happen every week viduals who are in this scenario so that the minister has to two weeks. full understanding of it. I'm going to give the minister the Th is particular individual is very physically active and benefi t of the doubt. I'm not going to use the names, for enjoys all kinds of sports, including basketball, biking, privacy reasons. Although I have authorization, I'm not soccer, baseball and rock climbing. He's unable to travel going to do that. I'm simply going to refer to these indi- anywhere independently because of the unpredictabil- 3346 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

ity of the seizures. He lives with his self-employed single the added diffi culties of OCD as well. Th is family requires mom during the week and spends weekends with his a lot of support to maintain daily life. If day services were father, who lives in another community most of the year. not provided by CLBC, this mother would likely work His father has a full-time job, and when he's having seiz- herself…. Well, we can just imagine the situation there. ures he requires close supervision and care, making it I want to again highlight yet another story for the min- impossible for the mom to run her business. ister's understanding of the situation here for these vari- As of April 29 the mom has not been advised of his ous individuals and families. GSA score, and if day services are not provided by CLBC, So going back to that question, I wonder — maybe not the mother will be unable to provide fi nancially for her at this time, because we're pressed for time…. I know the son to maintain their home and her business. So this is timeline is such that the minister and the ministry won't another example, and if the base level is at $2,800, this be able to formulate all of the calculations of those who family is going to be in dire straits. have been assessed by the GSA score on how much they'd Now, I know that the minister is going to say, "Well, be receiving — is it the $2,800 as the bare minimum, or is that will be all subject to further evaluation," and so on it going to be what the score assessed them to be? — and and so forth. But I want to give these examples to the that all that information won't be available until, I think, minister so that he's aware of the current situation. I have towards the end of May. a stack of fi les full of individuals where they are not being [1755] funded to the level to which their score says they should Once that information is available, I wonder if the be funded — in fact, substantively. minister can provide me with the information of how I have records here that demonstrate individuals who many individuals are getting the funding that they're as- had to fi ght for almost a year in order for them to get the sessed at, and how many are not. full-level funding that they should be getting, and then it was almost a year aft er the fi ghting when they fi nally got Hon. D. McRae: I think there is a whole bunch of that funding. Th is meant that that whole year of fi ghting, questions. I'll try to give three answers here. If a person they weren't getting that funding accordingly. is assessed at level 4, basically, they have the ability to I'm very worried that those individuals and others that access up to a maximum of 17 hours a week of supports. are new to the system would be in that boat, which would Th at does not necessarily mean that there are 17 hours. compromise their health and safety. Th at is the reality of It's a maximum of up to. it. So I want to bring this to the minister's attention, and Th e other piece. CLBC will share information from the hopefully, these issues would be addressed. budget management plan when it becomes available. Th is I want to put another example on the record here. Th is will become available, I would think, in early to mid-June. individual has Down syndrome. He has a visual impair- When it becomes available, we will provide it. ment, as well, and is physically challenged. He requires Th e other piece is that it's also really important for extra support at school and manages daily routine quite people to understand that there is a complaints resolution nicely. process that is available to everybody who works with the Th e family writes: "What I can't understand is why, all CLBC. So if a decision is made or perhaps they're afraid of a sudden, because he's turning 19 should his needs a decision is going to be made that's not going to be to not be met? He's still the same individual who's always one's best needs or they think that a decision is not timely needed support." But already the family is being told that in coming, a person can go to the complaints resolution they should not count on any extra support. Th e individ- process, where a whole new person adjudicates the issue ual also has to care for the spouse, who also suff ers from and will relook at the case. mental health issues and a heart condition. Th is is from an individual who is very worried about their child and J. Kwan: Just so the minister knows, interestingly…. their family's well-being. He says that they're not entitled to 17 hours, but they Another case. I think I will stop with this last case be- can get up to 17 hours. But this is the case history of the cause I'm running out of time fast. In 2014 this young government since 2001. woman turns 19, in August of this year. She has autism [1800] spectrum disorder and loves everything, from Disney to One participant assessed at level 4 GSA in 2010-2011 art to furry animals. As of April 29, 2014, her family has got zero hours, in 2011-2012 got zero hours funded and not been advised what her GSA score is, though her sin- then in 2012-2013 got ten hours. Th en it wasn't until gle mother suspects that, again, it is a level 4, requiring 2013-14 that the individual got what they should have 17½ hours per week. got, which is 17½. Okay? So participant No. 1. Her mother works ten-hour-day day shift s, fi ve shift s a Another case would be somebody who's assessed at a week, managing a home-based licensed child care facility. level 3 from the GSA score in 2010-11 got zero hours and In addition, the mother supports a younger child of 15 in 2011-12 got zero hours. Th en in 2012-13 they got 11 years of age who also has autism spectrum disorder, with hours, and it wasn't until 2013-14 that they got funding Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3347

for 12 hours, as an example. CLBC offi ces that started the fi scal year in a defi cit. Can I'm sort of just highlighting a few examples here. It's the minister explain why this is the case, given that there not to say that those individuals did not require the fund- was an announced increase in funding of $243 million ing. It was through relentless advocacy that they fi nally over the next three years? got the funding that they required in those subsequent [1805] years. I have many, many examples of participants who are in that scenario. Hon. D. McRae: Th ere will be no defi cit once the new I have another ten participants who have been…. allocations are made. And again, I'm pleased to say that Some of them are assessed at a level 4 GSA score, and there is $35.7 million more going to CLBC. However, it already they've been told that they only get $2,800 — so is all, of course, contingent on the budget passing later therefore 2½ hours as opposed to 17½ hours, which is on, in May. really what they require. You can imagine that these scores…. I read through J. Kwan: I wonder if the minister, then, can provide this document in quite some detail trying to understand me, at a later time, with a list of the CLBC offi ces that it. It actually cites how this is the best model that British started with a defi cit. Once the allocation is made, then Columbia uses. It says all kinds of swell things about it maybe that will erase it. I would be delighted to have that and talks about how the government spent years in com- documented for all the offi ces. I would certainly be inter- ing up with this assessment tool, only then for the minis- ested in looking at the offi ces, going backward with their ter to say that the assessment tool is, well, just something budget, to see how many of those were in a defi cit situa- that we consider — somewhere in these estimates. tion and how much their respective defi cits were. Families understand and facilitators have been told At this point in time I am actually getting very anxious that when they've been assessed using this score, this is about the time. What I'm going to do, instead of waiting how much they should be funded and calculate the fund- for an answer, is I'm going to read off a whole bunch of ing accordingly. Th e minister is now sort of switching questions. I'm really hoping that the minister will then that to say, "Well, gee, they're able to get up to 17½ hours commit and that he will ask his staff to provide me with of funding," and not actually what has been identifi ed these answers so I can get these questions on the pub- according to this guide. I fi nd that extremely troubling. lic record. Now, I am fully cognizant of the time and the lack of Aside from getting a list from the minister, I wonder time that we have in getting into a full debate about that, if the minister can tell us which CLBC offi ces started but I do want to fl ag it for the minister around this issue the year with defi cits and, if so, how much the defi cit is. and my grave concern about the government not provid- How many 19-year-olds does each CLBC offi ce expect to ing the necessary funding to meet the needs of these in- serve this fi scal year? Of those transitioning youth, how dividuals to ensure their health and safety. I want to put many will receive the full level of day services based on that on the record. their GSA scores versus how many will receive only the I'll be looking forward to receiving the documenta- $2,800 or an amount less than their GSA score indicates tion from the minister around how many of those in- is necessary? dividuals are getting the funding which the GSA score I understand that the data collection and communica- says they should be and how many are not — that means tions between school districts, MCFD offi ces and CLBC to say those that are only getting the $2,800 as the bare offi ces have improved immensely, and many CLBC of- minimum. fi ces can now forecast four to fi ve years in advance the I understand and families do know that there's a number of transitioning youth expected to require adult complaint process. Th ey also understand that there is services. a representative, as well, to which they can bring these Given this information, why is it that the local CLBC issues, amongst other avenues, which of course is avail- offi ces are underfunded and ending up in defi cit situa- able to them. tions each year? Or is the minister saying that that was That said, one would hope, though, that when the last year and that this year it will not be the case as they issues have been brought to the minister's attention, that will all be fully funded, so therefore, they will not end up people wouldn't actually have to exercise those avenues, in a defi cit situation and all the youth who come into the through enormous challenges and grief, to try to get the offi ces will get the full funding as required? basic supports that the government's own tool assessed [1810] these individuals to be requiring, to ensure that their chil- I understand that among the most poorly supported dren have their health and safety needs met. populations in CLBC are youth in transition, despite in- I'm going to move on, and I'll accept the minister's an- itiatives like the services to adults with developmental swer in receiving the documentation when it becomes disabilities. available. As an example, families of transitioning youth on the Now, it is my understanding that there are regional south Island created an innovative model to support 3348 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014 youth in transition — it is called Inclusion Works — in itions, I believe, and there was a series of community which families pool their individualized funding. Th is consultations. model of service delivery has received recognition from With that information, I wonder if the minister can CLBC and the Ministry of Social Development and break out for me where the $40 million was actually ex- addresses ten to 12 of the recommendations from the pended. Where exactly did that money go — if, in fact, December 2012 deputy minister's report. that fi gure is correct? Maybe it's not exactly $40 million. Despite this, a new group of families desiring to repli- I wonder if the minister can advise, in writing at a later cate the Inclusion Works model has been informed that time, where that money went and how it was broken out, they are unlikely as a group to receive the funding need- accordingly. ed to serve their youth. I wonder if the minister can ex- Th e other issue I want to raise is that one of the object- plain why recognized innovation is not being supported ives from those recommendations was to improve the by CLBC and the ministry. on-the-ground workings between the ministries — i.e., I understand, from families of transitioning youth, Health and CLBC. People on the ground tell me that this that there is a gap issue for students who are not yet 19 is actually not happening and, in fact, things are getting at the end of a school year but who desire to leave school worse. Historically, services and moneys were set aside with their typical peers. Th is would be a student, for ex- for health services for Community Living, but now in ample, who might have their 19th birthday in October the Vancouver Coastal Health region instead of having or January. We have heard from families that many of a dedicated nurse for health services for Community these students with developmental disabilities are being Living, the nurse function is being distributed to the forced to stay in school an extra year, even if they don't community nurses. want to, due to the lack of CLBC funding for day services. [1815] What supports are in place from the Ministry of Up until now the health services for Community Children and Family Development to support transi- Living nurses, trained as employees, are what is called tioning youth in community day services until 19, when delegation of task or transfer of function. The nurse CLBC takes over responsibility? Is it not a concern for the trained the staff in nursing functions, such as tube feed- government that, because CLBC lacks adequate funding, ing, seizure management, and so on. In the new model CLBC offi ces will not provide day services to these young they are not being trained at all. Many people that require people when they do turn 19 — instead forcing them to these complex health care needs are not getting the train- wait until the July aft er they turn 19? ing that's required to support them. Th at's the school issue that I gave to the minister by Recently the CLBC has created a program called way of example. Th ere are individuals who turn 19 who Th riving in Community, and this was paid for by CLBC. don't want to stay for another year of schooling, but they People say that this was, in fact, excellent training for the don't have the program supports in place, and CLBC community program managers so that they understood would not fund them. Consequently, they're forced to the process of delegation of tasks. stay in school for another year, as an example. However, they're now in a situation where the training I wonder if the minister can address this batch of is being removed from Health, and CLBC has not funded questions, and then I'll go to my next batch of questions. an alternative way of training the employees to ensure the When I say "address," that's by way of committing that health and safety of the people they support. Th ey have the staff will answer these questions in writing to me at also identifi ed that the nurse will no longer write health a later time. care plans, which of course creates a dangerous situation with our plan for replacement of these services. It further Hon. D. McRae: Yes. complicates and compromises the clients' care. I'm wondering if the minister can address this issue in J. Kwan: I like it. Th ank you very much. We're making collaboration with his colleague, the Minister of Health, progress. I want to get all these questions on the record. because clearly, this branches into two areas. I wonder if Th en I have some colleagues who want to ask some ques- he can provide me with an answer related to the issues tions for their constituents. that I have identifi ed at a later time. I have a question around issues that have been raised around the 12-point recommendations from the minis- Hon. D. McRae: We will do our best to provide that ter's report that came forward. In the last set of estimates, information. I know that the minister said the 12-point plan is now complete. I believe that the ministry at the time had ac- J. Kwan: Okay. I take that as a defi nite yes. I don't sort tually allocated $40 million to engage with the commun- of like this, "We will do our very best" or "We will attempt ity to implement a plan that would improve services to to do that," which, of course, leaves room to actually, ul- people with developmental disabilities. Th e net result…. timately, not provide the information. Maybe I'm too sus- We seem to have additional creation of navigator pos- picious, but just a yes would be great. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3349

Interjection. sued the government relating to the payments of these liabilities. If the minister can provide me updated infor- J. Kwan: Okay. So I'm assuming that's a yes. If the min- mation around this broad issue of the benefi ts trust, I ister disputes me, I won't come back to it. would appreciate it. I'm going to move on to my next area, which is collab- orative service delivery issues. Individuals have written Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite knows to me, and they have raised this issue — that their fam- that there is an issue where this is before the courts. We'll ilies and other families aff ected need to know why their do our best to share information that does not prejudice children's combined CLBC-Health funding, using the the outcome of the case, but it may not meet the test of 2010 collaborative guide process, results in considerably what the member opposite is looking for. But we'll do less funding than what their children would be entitled our best to provide information that we can in regards to if they were strictly a Health-only, high-intensity- to this issue. needs client. Again, this is an issue that ties into health, but it seems J. Kwan: Presumably, the items or the organizations to me, though, that the shortfall is coming from CLBC. that are before the courts…. I would assume that the Let me just put this on the record: minister would not be able to deal with those organiza- "Th e impact of this so-called collaborative service delivery is that tions. But there are others, and if there are other liabil- our children do not now have equal access to health care and/or ities with the other organizations and so on, I would look the Community Living services they're entitled to. Families are forward to those answers from the minister and whatever left with the full weight and negative results of their children being discriminated against solely because they have a developmental else he could provide me with, regarding this overall issue disability in addition to their high-intensity health care needs. — the history of it, where it is at and where it is going to go. "CLBC and VIHA's failure to develop formalized policies or pro- Moving on to yet another issue, I think this is actually cedures as outlined in the 2010 collaborative guidelines have re- a valid issue in the sense…. It does cross over with the sulted in funding allocations being subjective, arbitrary," and so on. Minister of Children and Family Development as well. "Why would CLBC, being the designated case coordinator for collaborative service delivery, develop allowed contracts for their Th e individual sent me information that said there is already marginalized contracts that blatantly discriminate against great concern that, in fact, the ministry does not put ef- them in the provision of services?" fort into improving functioning for individuals with de- Th e individual states that since 2010 herself and others velopmental disabilities, either before they transition or have been documenting, complaining about and discuss- aft er they transition. In fact, if you do provide for sup- ing this practice with CLBC representatives. So far, to ports to enhance the individual's functioning, feasibly the date, there has been no action. cost both individually and perhaps to the system would I would like the minister to commit to providing an- be lessened over time. swers in addressing the concerns that have been raised I'm wondering if the minister can provide some in- around the collaborative service delivery issues I have formation to me in writing about what steps are taken to identifi ed here. try and improve the functioning of the individuals with developmental disabilities before or aft er they transition, Hon. D. McRae: CLBC will be happy to provide that and to what extent the minister thinks that it is eff ect- information. ive. Has there been any analysis that has been done, any evaluation of the programs that the ministry has in place J. Kwan: I quite like this process, actually. I might ac- with respect to addressing this particular issue? tually switch to this model of estimates from here on. Onto my next question. Benefi ts trust is an issue that I Hon. D. McRae: Obviously, I'm not the Minister of want to raise with the minister. I would like to get some Children and Families. However, the areas that are under understanding around this. It is my understanding that the purview of this ministry and CLBC we'll do our best there is a health benefi ts trust that sort of was outdated. to provide. You can also make some requests through the [1820] Ministry of Children and Families, but again, that is ob- Agencies have, from those trusts, an outstanding lia- viously another ministry. bility with their health benefi ts trusts. I wonder whether or not that is the case. If so, what agencies have liabilities J. Kwan: For the individuals before they transition, it and how much? What is happening with these liabilities? would be MCFD, and aft er they've transitioned, it will What are these agencies supposed to do with that? Has be with CLBC. I would appreciate the minister's eff ort the government eliminated these liabilities? What action in working with his colleague to see what information has been taken to address this issue? he can obtain regarding this issue. I would love to get an understanding on this issue All of these things should be theoretically seamless, from the minister. I would also like to know whether or right? It shouldn't be, like: "Because it's over there in not these agencies have been sued or the agencies have that ministry, therefore, I know nothing about it; I can- 3350 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

not talk about it." It doesn't work that way. Life doesn't when there is no home community facility which they work that way. We have to actually fi nd a way to blend it can access. Because of the delay in giving him an individ- all and to try and address these issues as best as we can ualized plan to move him home much earlier, Christmas for the individuals who are in need. I trust that the min- aft er Christmas, Cameron was left alone. ister will endeavour to do that and provide me with that I urge the minister to take these comments to heart and information and any analysis or information or reports to look for options of seeing whether or not a group home that he has on this. If he could provide that to me, I would could be developed in Squamish. I wonder if, in that pro- greatly appreciate it. cess, the minister's staff could also identify how many people I have a quick question. I kind of suspect that I know in and around that community have what they would call the answer, but I feel compelled to ask this question complex, high-intensity needs where the creation of a group anyway, at the request of the individual who sent it to home — not just for Cameron but for others like him — me. Th e person would like to know: why have only ap- would actually make it cost-eff ective and then, of course, proximately 500 individuals signed on to use the indi- address the quality of life issue as well. vidualized funding option that CLBC has for adults with I see the minister is nodding. I'm going to accept that developmental disability when, in fact, there are approxi- he's going to say yes to my request in answering this ques- mately 13,700 clients? tion and move on to the next one. [1825] Th is is an individual who's come to my offi ce. I also I kind of have a sense of what the answer is, but I'm have her permission to put her name on the record: going to put the question on the books with the minister, Cathy Grant. Lots of issues here. She served on the tran- and he can answer that question. sition steering committee, and she raises issues around I'm going to move on to a whole bunch of individual self-advocates on the board and felt that there was a cases. I'm going to say what these cases are, and I'm go- reduction in self-advocates on the board, which she ing to fi re them over to the minister at a later time, once says is inappropriate. It was reduced to one from two. I have them more coordinated. I will be happy to work According to the act itself, the requirement is for two with the minister's staff with respect to these individ- self-advocates to be on that board, which is now not ual cases. the case. Th en I'm going to hand the fl oor over to my colleague, She states that at these public board meetings the pub- who has questions on specifi c individual cases as well. lic is not allowed to ask questions. I don't know if that's Th is is regarding an individual — I have his family's the case, and I wonder if the minister can confi rm that. I consent to put the name on the record: Cameron Mannix. hope that is not true. She also states that the community People will recall, the minister may well recall, Cameron council meetings may be eliminated. Th ey were also told Mannix's case. He has complex, intense needs and was that they were not allowed to speak at these community hospitalized for a very long time. Th e family wishes for council meetings and that they were only able to observe. him to be home and process…. Th ere is some progress I wonder if the minister can clarify that point for me as with respect to that, although not to the degree that we well. I hope that is also not the case. had hoped, because he's still not home. At this point, She has been trying to get information about funding though, this is the latest update that I have got regarding for herself in terms of the funds that are allocated to her Cameron. and where they have gone. She has not been successful "Th e transition to home is still going to take a while. Squamish in accessing this information. I'm wondering whether just isn't ready for him yet. I'm looking for a group home in North or not the minister can provide that information to her Van for him for the time being, until everything is in place for and have staff work with her to access this information. him in Squamish. It's sort of a stepping stone," the mother writes. [1830] "I would love to help with CLBC, if CLBC would consider either building or buying a home here and turning it into a group home Th e fi le on Cathy is actually quite lengthy, and given for people like Cameron with severe disabilities. Th ere are no the time, I'm not going to go into all of the details around group homes like that here in Squamish." it. Suffi ce it to say that this is an issue that I'd like to talk Th e mother is asking for help with respect to that. Th e with the minister's staff about and to try to hopefully get reality is that the mother is a single mom, and she has resolution about her personal situation as well as try to a full-time job. She has to drive to Lions Gate Hospital get access to the information that she wishes to obtain. to visit her child at the moment. Even as he gets transi- I'm going to pause here and take a breath and let the tioned into a group home in North Van, she has to drive minister say yes and then come back to more cases and to North Van to visit her child. Th ere is no facility in her hand the fl oor over to my colleagues. home community where she could get closer to Cameron. At Christmas — it breaks your heart to know this — Hon. D. McRae: I want to give a long sort of time to she could not visit Cameron because she could not get answer this question to give my colleague on the other time off work, so Cameron spent Christmas alone in the side a chance to literally catch her breath. Th at was an hospital with no visits. Th at's the reality that families face impressive run. So yes. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3351

J. Kwan: Well, thank you very much, Minister. [Th e bells were rung.] Okay, then moving right along, I have a very complex case involving an individual as well, and again, I've got Hon. D. McRae: Well, I'm sure we didn't call the vote. her consent, the family's consent to deal with this situa- tion. I have a litany of questions around this individual. J. Kwan: Before we run off to vote…. Th e system has failed this individual, suffi ce it to say, because currently she's homeless, and through her tran- Th e Chair: I'll move to recess. sition years she did not get the services that she needed. In that process she's also fi ghting an addiction challenge J. Kwan: Can I just respond quickly, and then we'll go as well. She was promised addiction services at various to a recess? locations, only to have been forced to wait for a period of time and then be told that that facility is not the right Th e Chair: Certainly. I'll allow that. one for her and then to have to wait again for yet another one and then be told again that that's not the right facility, J. Kwan: Th ank you very much. I'll endeavour to get until the point where everything simply fell apart. the family to provide that and engage in that discussion Th e fi le on this individual is thick, as the minister can with the minister. see, and I would dearly love to work with the minister and with this family to fi nd resolution here to provide Th e Chair: I call recess. the necessary assistance to this family. I think the parents actually feel that they are on their last legs with respect Th e committee recessed from 6:34 p.m. to 6:45 p.m. to their daughter's outcome here. Th e family's name is Tim and Barb Windle. [G. Kyllo in the chair.] Th ey have a series of questions. What funding supports is their daughter Alison eligible to receive? Where is the B. Routley: I won't use the entire name. Let's call him written plan? Why has this not been put in place? Why Danny. He's a 61-year-old man that's under the care of did CLBC not intervene sooner and, more appropriately, CLBC. He was removed, just before Christmas, and put when things started to go wrong? into a diff erent facility. He was, according to his closest Th e family says that there were over 70 critical incident family — a relative, his sister — very happy in this kind reports listed on their daughter's fi le, many of which, they of hobby farm type of arrangement. say, they were not properly informed of. As well, they say Apparently, the nub of the issue…. I do want to thank that CLBC's own policy states that a series of critical inci- the minister and his staff for having the patience to work dent reports are supposed to trigger a third-party review. with us at the local constituency level. But it is a frustrat- Why was this not done? ing one for me to have gone through and to see a fellow Th eir daughter had so much trouble in the society that who was very happy in his circumstance. Th e ministry they were assigned to. Why didn't CLBC step in to fi nd was concerned because there were children involved more suitable supports? Th e family says that there was in the home that was looking aft er him, and because of about a six-month period in late 2012 when their daugh- some incident in a fi le that was, in my view, outdated and ter received no support services at all, yet payments were old…. More than 21 years have gone by, and there haven't made to the society, which triggers another set of issues been any of the kind of incidents that would be involved related to that. in what the assertion was. I'm not going to say all of the issues and questions here In what I would call an attempt to close the barn door on the record, but if I can get a commitment from the aft er the horse was already out, there was a psychologic- minister to work with me on this case to fi nd resolution, al assessment. Th at was quite short — whether it was an I would appreciate it. hour or a couple hours. I'm sure there was some money involved in that. Hon. D. McRae: For clarity's sake, the form allowing What I'm here today to ask for is for the minister to access — is that signed by the parents or signed by the review his fi les, for the staff who have already acknow- individual? ledged to me that this case could have been handled much better…. Th ey could have done a number of things J. Kwan: I have documents here that indicate it is diff erently that wouldn't have created the stress for the signed by the parents, and in this pile there may well be family, for the individual involved who was removed a document from the daughter as well. from his happy home. What he has been stamped as, as of today, as a result Hon. D. McRae: Just for clarity's sake, if the person is of this psychiatric evaluation, is someone who can't be over 19, we would need to have a release signed by the around children. Th at as an outcome, Minister, is totally individual. unacceptable to his family, his sister, who is very close 3352 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, April 30, 2014

to him. She's cried about that a lot, that he somehow is sides of the House, these are all sons and daughters of stamped or branded in that way. someone, and we want to make sure that they're treated We think that a proper outcome for the ministry, given with respect and dignity. We'll do our very best to get an- that there was some admission that CLBC, in the trans- swers as quickly as possible. As well, there is a resolution fer from hard-written fi les to electronic fi les, had missed process, as you well know, when answers are not forth- some important information that later came to light…. coming that people are accepting. As a result of that, all of this other mysterious action Again, I do want to thank the member opposite for took place. your succinctness in dealing with this issue — coming to I know that it's a complex fi eld that you deal with. I the ministry and letting us try to work with you and the do get it and accept that there are a lot of good people individual to provide resolution. So thanks again. trying very hard to make it all work. But in this case, it was clearly botched. At the end of the day, I think that J. Kwan: I know that we're fast running out of time, so we owe it to this individual, who I shall call Danny, to do I want to just put three things on the record here. One is a neuropsychiatric evaluation. For the sake of brevity, I in relation to a family's situation where their daughter has did lay out the reasons why we think that that's better. It's lived in a home for 19 years. With no warning, she was more comprehensive. It would give him a chance to be put into a palliative care facility, which of course, caused reviewed in a more fulsome manner. the family great distress. Th e palliative care facility, of I honestly believe he should not be branded as some- course, is not really for a person with developmental dis- body…. He was actually raped and abused himself while ability needs, as she is not dying. To that end, I'd like to in care. So it's particularly grievous to his family and work with the minister on this case with respect to reso- those who know him that he should be, at the end of the lution here for the family. So if I can get a commitment day, somehow branded as somebody that shouldn't be from the minister on that, I would appreciate it. around children. Th en I'm going to move on to another case, Christina We think that's not the case, given the fullness of time. Singh. I just got a letter today from the minister — in re- We think that with a proper neuropsychiatric evaluation, sponse to my many, many letters dating back to October that would bear that out, and that would do it for us. and then the latest request, which was on March 19, re- [1850] garding her case — advising that she will get some of the Like the critic, I would love to have a yes today, but I'm things that she has asked for, particularly that she would happy if you can give me an answer at some point and have her fi ve additional hours for life skills supports take the time to review this. I think you'll agree with me when she returns home. that given all of the curveballs that this gentleman and However, Ms. Singh is not going to get the support his family have had to deal with, this would be a fair out- that she needs through the global-funded life skills sup- come at the end of the day if it makes the family happy. ports that were off ered to her. I'm not sure why that is — Hon. D. McRae: I'd also like, before you get the an- that when it was fi rst off ered to her…. It was going to be swers…. We're going to review this and get an answer funded through a diff erent agency, and she didn't want back to you as soon as we can. I know it has been im- that. She wanted the same agency that she's dealing with portant to you. to provide the continuous service. Because of that re- I also want to just highlight for the members who are quest, she had to turn down the other agency's provision here and, also, for people that may be watching on TV and was hoping to get those hours funded through her that at the ministry we have the opportunity to serve in- agency that's providing her service now, and now she's dividuals across the province of British Columbia. Th ey being turned down. are individuals. Both the individuals we serve and, also, I'm not quite sure what the rationale is. Her needs whether through CLBC or the care providers…. We want haven't changed. It's just that she has a diff erent prefer- to make sure everybody is treated fairly. ence of the agency that she wants to get the service from. To the member opposite, I must say thank you very I wonder if the minister can also have his staff engage in much. I was really, really thankful that when there was an a discussion with me about that. issue in your constituency with one of your constituents, Finally, the last thing is the GIA, the Giving in Action you allowed us to work with you and the people involved family fund, which we have had no opportunity to dis- to try to fi nd some resolution that was going to work for cuss the funding here. But this bridges into the general everybody. I think my staff tried really hard. ministry's Social Development funding as well. Th ere's I know we work with CLBC to provide information in a portion that falls into CLBC, but there's a portion that a timely manner. We don't always get every resolution falls into Social Development as well. I'm just going to that's going to be perfect for everybody in the end. We'll give the minister a heads-up that I'm actually going to do our best to get some answers for you on this particu- ask this set of questions tomorrow, which I've worked lar question. But please, by all means, members of both out with the critic on that. Wednesday, April 30, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3353

Th e Chair: Minister, noting the hour. person for me to work with, as a minister, and I will miss him not being here next time we get to do estimates. His Hon. D. McRae: I'll be very quick, if I may, Chair. We'll energies are much appreciated. do our best to provide the information as we can. On behalf of the Ministry of Social Development [1855] and Social Innovation and the government of British I know we're tight for time, but I just want to, fi rst of all, Columbia, I wanted to publicly say thank you to Doug. recognize Doug Willard behind me. Doug began work Th anks, again. with CLBC in 2005. He has served as acting CEO for the Hon. Chair, I move that the committee rise, report last 2½ years. Doug is not retiring. He will continue to progress on the Ministry of Education and the Ministry stay with the organization. of Social Development and Social Innovation and ask At this time I just wanted to stand and recognize that leave to sit again. Doug has done great work for CLBC. He has done what I think all employees wish to do when they work with an Motion approved. organization —leave it in a better place than when they started. Doug has been a great advocate. He's been a great Th e committee rose at 6:56 p.m.

Hansard Reporting Services

Director Robert Sutherland

Manager of Reporting Services Christine Fedoruk

Publishing Supervisor Laurel Bernard

Editorial Team Leaders Janet Brazier, Karol Morris, Robyn Swanson, Glenn Wigmore

Technical Operations Offi cers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr

Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser

Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Richard Baer, David Mattison

Editors Kim Christie, Deirdre Gotto, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Erik Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Anita Willis

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.

Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia PO Box 9452 Stn Prov Govt, Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 www.crownpub.bc.ca

Daily and annual Hansard subscription information is available from Crown Publications.

www.leg.bc.ca

Access to on-line versions of the offi cial report of debates (Hansard) and webcasts of proceedings is available on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television.