First Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Morning Sitting Volume 4, Number 6

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

First Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Claire Trevena Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Parksville-Qualicum ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River North ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River South ...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Penticton...... Dan Ashton McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Skeena ...... Robin Austin Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver–False Creek ...... Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Vacant ...... Westside-Kelowna Westside-Kelowna ...... Vacant

Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS

Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Morning Sitting

Page

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply ...... 1095 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) Hon. T. Lake J. Darcy S. Hammell S. Robinson M. Elmore J. Kwan V. Huntington

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 1105 Estimates: Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation Hon. J. Rustad D. Donaldson S. Fraser

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply ...... 1115 Estimates: Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services Hon. A. Wilkinson G. Heyman

1095

THURSDAY, JULY 25, 2013 our critic for mental health and addictions, the member for Surrey–Green Timbers. I want to come back on one Th e House met at 10:02 a.m. question related to capital commitments. We've asked several questions on Tuesday and then [Madame Speaker in the chair.] several questions again Wednesday of the minister about capital commitments, coming back yesterday to Prayers. the need for openness and transparency and why cer- tain things appear in the service plan and others do not. Orders of the Day Aft er repeated questions about that, and in particular about Burnaby Hospital, we were told yesterday that for Hon. T. Lake: We now call Committee of Supply: in Burnaby Hospital, the funding — or maybe it was the day Section B, in this chamber, the estimates for the Ministry before: "Yes, it is in the budget." of Health; in the Douglas Fir Committee Room, Section As the minister knows, I came back yesterday and A, the estimates of the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations said: "We scoured the budget, couldn't fi nd it. Where is and Reconciliation; and in Section C, the estimates of it?" Th e minister said that it's on page 175 under capital the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' funding, Vote 48, a section that has Minister of Advanced Services. Education and Minister of Education, Minister of Health and Minister of Natural Gas Development, with a total Committee of Supply amount of $404.474 million. My question to the minister is twofold. I'd like to ask ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH a specifi c question about the reduction from the year (continued) before, when it was $437 million. But my fundamental question is: will the minister please provide a breakdown Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. of what is included in that, in the interest of openness Chouhan in the chair. and transparency? [1010] Th e committee met at 10:05 a.m. Hon. T. Lake: Vote 48, capital funding — this is the On Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,403,475,000 funding that is provided to various health authorities (continued). for health facilities, for capital. That could be major equipment. It could be renovations to the existing infra- Hon. T. Lake: I'm pleased to be here today to resume structure. We see there has been a reduction in $23.364 the estimate debates for the Ministry of Health and again million from '12-13 to '13-14. I'm told that is because it want to thank the staff at the Ministry of Health, particu- really depends on what the stage is and what the needs larly those who are here with me today. I have my dep- are of all the diff erent health authorities and the diff er- uty minister, Steve Brown, assistant deputy ministers ent structures. Manjit Sidhu and Barbara Korabeck. We also have from Currently there are over 300 projects that fall into that the ministry helping us out today Ann Marr and Nick category of sort of routine investment in upkeep and up- Grant. Th ere will be others that come through and others grading. It will vary from year to year, and it really just that are in the background eagerly anticipating fi nding depends on where those diff erent projects are in their the answers to the questions from the members opposite. construction, their payment. One year it may be higher, If I may take the opportunity to thank the members and one year it may be lower, depending on the basket of opposite for the past couple of days of discussion and 300 diff erent capital projects that are being undertaken. questions and the very collegial way in which we've been Again, we do list the major capital projects, those over able to conduct the estimates — thank you. $50 million, in the budget document separately. Th is is more of an aggregate of the smaller capital projects that J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister for those com- are undertaken on a somewhat routine basis. ments. And since I don't know if I'll have a chance at the end of estimates today to say so, let me also thank the J. Darcy: I appreciate the answer, but perhaps I could minister and his staff for working so hard to answer our strongly encourage…. I mean, $49.99 million is an awful questions. I see that there are even more binders that lot of money. I would strongly encourage the minister to have been brought in today than previously. I don't know look at whether projects over some amount that is sig- what that means. I don't know if you have any idea what nifi cantly less than $49.9 million should be considered other questions we have in store, but we certainly appre- for disclosure. ciate the diligence. I don't want to use language that has been used in other I have just one question, and then I'm going to turn to forums about quick wins or about things being used for 1096 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

political purposes, although we did have some back-and- lion, Minister. forth about whether some commitments during the elec- I think the public would have no diffi culty…. If the tion which were for less than $50 million were made for public were aware that there is no accountability or trans- political purposes. parency for a sum that big, I think the problem we would It seems to me, in the interests of transparency and face is far more than confusion. I encourage the minister of British Columbians accepting that, yes, there's room once again to make that list public. for fl exibility and, yes, there are things that arise that are unforeseen that need to be paid for, that there appear to S. Hammell: I'd just like to follow up for a minute on be some signifi cant projects funded for that, that should this line of questioning. Aft er all, it is the public's money, both be accounted for to the public and should appear and the public does see the consequence of the decision in the service plan. at some point because the money goes into something and makes reality, a decision. It seems to me that you're Interjection. selling the public a little bit short. It is their money. Th ey should be able to see where those moneys are potential- J. Darcy: Well, it was encouraging, but I will ask one ly being spent and, in fact, comment if necessary. So I more time. Will the minister provide the list? would ask the minister if he would make that list public. [1015] [1020]

Hon. T. Lake: I think the member's point is: giving Hon. T. Lake: As mentioned, most of these projects the greatest amount of transparency to what is going on are approved by the regional hospital districts. Having in terms of capital reinvestment in the facilities through- sat on the hospital district in the Th ompson-Nicola re- out the health authority. While I agree with the concept, gion, I can tell you that these smaller capital projects are I think there are some practical barriers to that. Th ere's brought forward in the public domain. So there is an a myriad of diff erent projects, and some of them may be ability throughout the province, through public meet- in the planning stage. Some of them will not move for- ings and meetings of boards that make the decisions on ward for one reason or another, yet they would still ap- the relatively small capital projects — as I mentioned, pear under that list. It's very fl uid. over 300 of these. And a lot of that does goes through a A health authority may have, let's say, a redesign or a public discussion. renovation of their diagnostic imaging suite. Th at may What I'm saying is we don't keep a centralized list of be a $2 million project and, for one reason or another, every project on that list of 300 diff erent projects because something else comes up that was unexpected that needs they tend to be very fl uid. Th ey'll move around. Th ey'll to become more of a priority, and so that fund may go change as the priorities occur. Sometimes some of those over to that — a sterilization issue or something like that. priorities are unexpected — when you have a piece of Th e health authorities discuss all of these projects with equipment that breaks down, or let's say an HVAC system their regional hospital boards throughout most of the that is all of a sudden not performing properly. I think province, but there are procurement issues. Th ere is the there is a lot of transparency there at the regional level concern, I believe, on the part of health authorities that and — on the major items, certainly — a lot of transpar- if the list were published — it is changing all the time — ency at the provincial level. there would be confusion created if the public were to see something on the list in one quarter and then not in S. Hammell: I'd like to shift the questions just quickly another quarter, because of that changing dynamic of back to Surrey for just a minute, and then we'll move on priorities as challenges occur in capital. to mental health. I think we've sort of struck the balance in ensuring We have a new facility that's been open for a number that the public is aware of the major projects ongoing. I of years called the Jim Pattison Centre. Can the minis- personally don't have any ideological objection to hav- ter tell me if that facility is now fully operational? It did ing all of that information out there, but I think in some get a slow start, and people were expecting it to be oper- cases it causes confusion because it's so fl uid and it will ational fairly soon. change from quarter to quarter. I think it may not be the I would also ask, on that same line of questioning: best information to have out there because of the fl uid- when the new Surrey emergency ward, which is to open ity that occurs. this fall, and the critical care tower — when will people see those to be up and fully operational? J. Darcy: I think a bigger challenge is to have over $0.4 billion with no breakdown in the public domain what- Hon. T. Lake: Th e member attended the opening of soever. I would suggest that you can have categories of the Jim Pattison Centre, and it is fully functional at the things that have more fl uidity to them, smaller projects moment. versus bigger projects, but we're talking about $0.414 bil- Th e emergency department. I know the member was Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1097

there for the preview, I believe about a week ago, and it Th ey spread throughout the United States. Th ey went is scheduled to be fully operational towards the end of into eastern Canada and, of course, we know our in- September. Th e patient care tower is expected to be fully stitution, which was started in 1913, Essondale, which constructed in the spring of 2014. morphed into Riverview. We had that institution for al- most a century. S. Hammell: I would ask the question…. I don't want It was felt — at that time — that well-run facilities to be confusing or unclear. I didn't ask when it would could dramatically improve the rate, the cures, around be completed. Th e question is really around operations. mental illness. Th ere was lots of controversy, which we all When will it be operational? When will it have the money know. Th ere were lobotomies. Th ere were other therapies, it needs to operate, not the money it needs to construct? electromagnetic therapies. In the 1970s, with the onset of psychotics, in terms of drugs, it was felt that the mentally Hon. T. Lake: We anticipate that it will be fully func- ill would be better served in the community. tional in the spring of 2014. Having said that, we do Th at's a little bit of background to where we get to to- provide funds up front before then, for preparing for day, where a huge number of the people in the penal in- that opening — one-time funds for training, movement stitutions, the jails, and on the streets, are the mentally ill. of equipment and things like that. Having said that, as When we had Essondale, or Riverview, we had 4,630 anyone who has ever done a renovation or construction beds that were supported by the government in terms of knows, sometimes things don't go quite according to housing the mentally ill. Th ose people are no longer there, plan. So I can't give the member an exact date that it will and so the question, of course, becomes: where are they? be fully functional. I wouldn't want to say that by May And I would ask the minister if he can tell me how many 15, 2014, everything will be 100 percent operational, but of the mentally ill are in group homes, assisted-living ar- it is our sincere hope that in the spring of 2014 the tower rangements or out on the streets? will be fully constructed and operational. [1030] [1025] Hon. T. Lake: To the member: thank you for that over- S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister. I'm not sure you view. I think it does provide some perspective on how so- know, but I would just mention that the hospital is in my ciety has changed in the way we deal with those in society constituency. So I do attend openings, and I think what with mental health and substance use challenges. has been done there is quite remarkable. I have no prob- Th is government has been here in power since 2001. lem in saying that. It was a long time coming. I have no At that time, I'm told, there were about 800 patients that trouble saying that either. But the hospital, especially — were still housed at a facility such as Riverview, and since and we'll move to this — the separation in terms of the that time they have been moved into the community with emergency ward from the mental health area, I think, group home situations. Th ese are homelike situations. I will make things a lot easier for everyone involved. I ap- have, in fact, had the opportunity to visit some, as my sis- plaud the building, and I'm very pleased to see it opening. ter actually worked for one of these care homes. I do want to switch over to mental health now, and I do In fact, you don't know where they are, oft en. Th ey're want to open this discussion with just a bit of background part of the community and just integrated into the com- or comments from an article that I can quote, with the munity. Th ese British Columbians now have the oppor- courtesy of Kevin Diakiw from the Surrey Leader. He tunity to have a fulfi lled life and to lead a much more puts mental health in a little bit of a context. I'm going to dignifi ed life than the one that the member so well de- read much of his comment, because I think it does relate scribed. so much to what we're doing now. He said: I can say that throughout the province there are 828 "In 1841 a 39-year-old teacher walked into a Massachusetts jail beds that are allocated to these community-based set- and volunteered to teach English. Her subsequent discovery in that institution changed her life — and eventually changed the tings. Th ere are 55 societies that manage those, and $137 lives of…others. million of capital was put into these facilities. Northern "When Dorothea Dix asked authorities why the mentally ill were Health has 65; Interior Health, 150; Vancouver Island housed alongside hardened criminals in unheated, unfi nished and Health Authority, 131; Fraser Health, 267, Vancouver foul-smelling cells, she was told 'the insane don't feel the cold.'" Coastal, 215. Th is is 1841. Th at, of course, is in addition to some of the other "Th e war on the poor treatment of people with mental illness was on for the daughter of this Methodist-Baptist preacher. Dix facilities that have been constructed and will be con- took the matter through the courts, and aft er several battles, won structed, including the Hillside psychiatric facility in her case — forcing the institution to provide…better living condi- Kamloops, the HOpe facility that is being constructed tions for the mentally ill. She took on several other jails, waging in North Vancouver. A lot of capital has gone into those and winning the same battle. particular facilities, as well as the group home facilities "Her work created a new awareness around mental illness and eventually spawned the creation of mental asylums — facilities that I mentioned earlier. with pastoral settings where people could get treatment." So we continue to invest. It is diffi cult. Th ere are some 1098 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

people who are on the street with mental health chal- and/or problematic use problem who are in contact with lenges and dual diagnoses — with an addiction challenge the criminal justice system have access to appropriate as well. Eff orts are made to reach out to those people. transition and support services. [1035] We have a cross-ministry deputies team that is bring- We had the Kamloops integration project, for instance, ing this up in terms of how we all work together to try to when I served as mayor of the city, where the AIDS implement strategies that do cross diff erent ministries to Society of Kamloops, a great social innovation organiz- try to reach out and help this very complex part of our ation in our city, would go and try to fi nd those vulner- population. able British Columbians that were on the street and try As the member is very aware, fetal alcohol spectrum to fi nd the appropriate social connections they needed disorder is a big part of this, and there are many ongoing in terms of social services from the province and also fa- eff orts, in terms of prevention and in terms of identifi ca- cilities where they could be homed. tion and treatment, to try to reduce the number of the So there's been a lot that's gone on, but since…. I think victims of FASD. the member is making the point that when that old mod- [1040] el — of institutionalizing and warehousing people with mental challenges — was broken down fi nally, there were S. Hammell: If we think about those numbers, there people that were housed in the community. Subsequently, are 828 beds, and there were at one time 4,638 people in some people have ended up on the street and continue our institutions in British Columbia. And that was at least to end up on the street. quite a number of years ago. Th at suggests that there are Th ose are very diffi cult cases, because you can't take a lot of people somewhere else who have mental illness. someone off the street and force them into a facility You have identifi ed that 50 percent of them meet and against their will. You have to try to work with them, try are treated through the justice system. And a number of to connect them with the services they need, and try to others are homeless. So there must be a huge cost to the persuade them that that will help them get better. It's a justice system for dealing with the mentally ill. And in diffi cult and daunting task, having spoken with many of some ways, what we have done has gone back to the fu- the people who work in that community, but it's some- ture. We had people in jails in 1841. We created an asy- thing we continue to put great eff orts into. lum system. We have eliminated the asylum system and now have people again in jails — and at a cost. S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister. I'm not asking these I'll ask a more general question. What is the estimat- questions to be combative. I'm just trying to fi gure out ed cost to the public system or to the system in general where we're at here. from mental illness? I'll ask you two other questions, because you have mentioned the homeless, and I would also like to take Hon. T. Lake: I just want to clarify some of the re- that question into the penal system. What percentage of sponses earlier. When we became government in 2001, the people on the streets are homeless? Well, let's stick there were 830 residents of Riverview at that time. Th ey to: what percentage of homeless are mentally ill or dual were moved into the community beds that I mentioned diagnosed? And what percentage of the mentally ill oc- earlier. cupy the jail system? However, those aren't the only community beds we have. We have a total of 12,425 beds that are for men- Hon. T. Lake: Absolutely, I think this is a great dis- tal health and substance-use management. Th ose are cussion to have. I don't take it as combative. I take it as throughout the province. Th at has been quite an increase. outlining for members of the House and for the general In fact, the number of adult community mental beds in public what a challenge this area is. B.C. has increased 95 percent since 2001, going from Th e member points to something that is defi nitely true, 4,940 to 9,654. Th e number of community substance- that individuals with mental health and substance use use beds has increased by 196 percent, with 1,715 new are overrepresented. Th ey're overrepresented in areas beds since 2003. of emergency care, hospital admissions, unemployment, We've made great strides, but as the member rightly within correctional facilities, and they need an integrated points out, we still have people with mental health and and collaborative response. substance-use challenges that come into contact with the In fact, over 50 percent of adults in contact with the criminal justice system. I don't have a fi gure as to how criminal justice system have been diagnosed with a men- much it costs society, but I can only presume that it is a tal illness and/or a substance use disorder. So in our ten- lot of money. year plan to address mental health and substance use We are trying through the measures that I have men- issues in B.C., called Healthy Minds, Healthy People, it tioned, with the vast expansion of beds over the last 12 includes an action to develop guidelines, service proto- years and with outreach programs. Working with social cols and tools to ensure that adults with a mental illness agencies and health authorities, we have tried our very Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1099

best to reduce the number of people with mental health Hon. T. Lake: Th e province, just in the Health budget or substance-use issues from coming into contact with alone, spends $1.4 billion per year on mental health and the justice system. substance use — addictions, essentially. So $1.4 billion — It remains a problem. I think this is one of those that and we have 4.5 million people. Now, obviously, not all of you'll never solve completely. All you can try to do is to them would be recipients of that funding. I would point make incremental change and reach towards that goal out that that's a 63 percent increase since 2001, and it's of keeping people out of the justice system and in the only, of course, part of the money that government at- proper care, where they can have their mental health and tributes to the problem. substance-use issues dealt with. Th e Minister Responsible for Housing has a large por- [1045] tion of his budget that goes into the housing component, and there would be the Minister of Social Development S. Hammell: Minister, there has been a study that has and the Minister of Children and Families. All would suggested that just the fact that people have mental illness have some funding that would be allocated towards men- costs society $50 billion a year. In British Columbia that tal health and addiction issues. would be $6.6 billion, as this study has indicated. So $20 billion of that is a direct cost to the business community S. Hammell: It's good to know that you have a deputy or to the employers of the province. minister on the Mental Health Commission of Canada. Have you been lobbied by the business commun- Th at's, I'm sure, a great plus for us. ity to do more around this issue? Th e Mental Health Th e chair of the Mental Health Commission of Canada Commission of Canada, along with two other organiza- said that Canada spends considerably less on mental tions, produced the national standard of care for psycho- health than several other comparable countries. For every logical health and safety. Has that been brought forward public health dollar, 7 percent goes to mental health. to WorkSafe B.C. so that is integrated, also, into their Th is is far below the 10 percent and 11 percent of public spending in countries such as New Zealand and Britain, work? just as an example. Th e Mental Health Commission has called for Canada to move that number, in general, up Hon. T. Lake: Have I been lobbied by business groups? to 9 percent from 7 percent over the next ten years. Has I think it's safe to say that anyone that's been in govern- our province agreed to do that? ment, whether at the local level or at the provincial level, [1055] hears from business and particularly chambers of com- merce about the issue of mental health and substance Hon. T. Lake: The Mental Health Commission of use and how it impacts workplaces and impacts their Canada has recognized British Columbia as being a lead- businesses. Certainly, as a mayor, we dealt with this a lot, er in terms of the percentage of dollars spent on men- which is why I was very familiar with some of the pro- tal health and substance use issues compared to the rest grams that were being used to try to assist those that had of Canada. I'm told that when you aggregate all of the those challenges. money that we do spend, whether it's in operations, phar- I've just been informed that one of our assistant deputy macological services, MSP services or the capital projects, ministers, in fact, sits on the Mental Health Commission we are at about 8.6 percent, so getting very close to the of Canada board that the member refers to. In fact, there number that the member mentions as a goal. was a report that came out about a month ago. Certainly, We are doing better and have been recognized as do- we will take great interest in that, but that report aligns ing better than most other jurisdictions in Canada. With very closely with our Healthy Minds, Healthy People our ten-year mental health plan we continue to make ten-year plan to combat mental health and substance- those investments. We have a commitment to put in use challenges. In fact, the plan includes a healthy work- 500 more beds to help with substance-abuse and mental place strategy. health problems. We very much agree with the member and with the national commission that workplace strategies to iden- S. Hammell: Minister, if you can come up with a num- tify and assist those with the challenges that we've been ber like 8.6 percent, I'm sure you know precisely how you discussing will be implemented as part of our strategy. got to that number. Could you make available to me the [1050] amount of money that has been spent across ministries on this issue? S. Hammell: Obviously, mental illness is a huge chal- lenge, and it claims more of a person's life than probably [D. Horne in the chair.] many other diseases. My question to the minister would be: what do we spend per capita on the mental health Hon. T. Lake: I'm told that it is on the website of the portion of your portfolio? national Mental Health Commission board. 1100 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

S. Hammell: Th e chair of the national commission, such a case. Th en there are some at the Riverview facility, again, said, "In a world in which prosperity depends in- as well, that would fi t into that — at high risk of causing creasingly on brain power and on a productive and dy- harm to themselves or others. namic workforce, Canada can't aff ord not to invest in the Th at's a very diffi cult segment of the population to future mental health" of its population. deal with. We continue to try to use community-based It does lead back, for me, to the issues around jus- services as much as possible, knowing that we need to be tice, the criminal justice system. All of us either know very diligent and have the resources necessary to ensure or have heard of some absolutely tragic situations where that the general public is kept safe and that the person the mentally ill were incarcerated rather than dealt with involved is kept safe as well. in community settings or appropriate settings. All of us, [1105] I am sure, remember Ashley Smith, whose only crime was to be mentally ill and who ended up dying in a cor- S. Hammell: To the minister, in just trying to distill rections facility. that answer down…. I appreciate you outlining the num- [1100] ber of diff erent outreach services you have that are also Closer to home we have Colette Salemink. Her house attached to hospitals and to other places of care. But my was burned by her son, who was on a day pass from question is very specifi c. For those people who are of a Riverview. danger to themselves and to others, such as what hap- So I'd ask fi rst…. I have a couple of questions, but one pened in Coquitlam — and I understand that this is is to the minister. Th ere are people with mental illness talking about reinstitutionalizing, to some extent — are who are a threat to themselves and to society. How are there a number of places throughout the province where they currently housed, and where are they? people who cannot safely live outside in society can go for a long period of time? Hon. T. Lake: Th e member began her comments by describing the historical aspects of dealing with mental Hon. T. Lake: Th e Riverview redevelopment is de- illness in society, where we've moved from a situation in signed for, I think, the type of client that the member is which people with mental health challenges were institu- discussing or referring. Th ese are highly complex mental tionalized, essentially imprisoned, alongside dangerous health disorders where, in many cases, under the Mental off enders, in many cases. She talked about the evolution Health Act they have been involuntarily placed into care. into the community care model. Th ere are 838 of those tertiary-level positions available Now we come to that very diffi cult part of the popula- at the Riverview development. tion that experiences complex and severe mental health and/or substance-use problems. Th ey require a more in- S. Hammell: Th e coroner's inquest into this death tensive approach, so there are diff erent approaches. made three recommendations. I can read all three of We have assertive community treatment and intensive them out for you, or I can just give you a straight-up case management services. Th ese provide community- question of: have these three recommendations been based and intensive services to people with those com- implemented? Did you want me to read them, or are you plex needs, including those who are homeless. Currently aware of them? we have ten of these assertive community treatment teams across the province, and three more are in de- Th e Chair: Th rough the Chair, Member, please. velopment. Seven intensive case management teams are in development. Hon. T. Lake: Which coroner's report? We also have psychiatric emergency services and community-based crisis response services, which include S. Hammell: Sorry, it was the coroner's report into the 24-7 crisis lines. We have mobile units, crisis stabilization death of Colette Salemink. beds, psychiatric liaison services and integrated teams in emergency departments. Hon. T. Lake: Th e member mentioned three recom- Acute in-patient and tertiary mental health services mendations. Th ere are a number here — larger than three include designated beds, which provide psychiatric as- — so perhaps we will need to be specifi c about which sessment, diagnosis, treatment, stabilization and short- recommendations the member refers to. term rehabilitation. In 2012 there were just under 1,500 [1110] acute and tertiary beds, and then we have 190 forensic psychiatric beds. S. Hammell: I'll just do the third one. The recom- I mentioned the Hillside Psychiatric Centre in mendation also included pairing police with psychiatric Kamloops. Th is is where people with very complex needs nurses for a trial period to deal with patients who have would reside — those who could prove harmful to them- violated the conditions of their extended leave from men- selves or others. In fact, we in the House have discussed tal health facilities. Th is is the one I'm trying to get to. It Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1101

also recommends police be given the power to tempor- M. Elmore: A question also continuing on mental arily revoke extended leaves when conditions are broken. health. It's with regards to the role of community-based mental health services. You outlined the continuum of Hon. T. Lake: I want to make sure that we're on the care that's off ered through institutionalization, hospi- right track here. Th is was recommendation No. 7, and talization, out-patient care, group homes. Can you talk it was to the B.C. Ministers of Justice and Health. Th is about the role that community-based mental health ser- was about having a provincial program consisting of a vices play within that continuum and, also, the budget strike force, if you like, of fi ve cars positioned strategic- allocation to those services? ally throughout the area, each car to include one police offi cer and one psychiatric nurse. I just would like a sig- Hon. T. Lake: We canvassed this a bit earlier. Just for nal. Is that the one we're talking about? the member's benefi t, we have spent almost $1.4 billion Okay. Th ank you, hon. Member. on mental health and substance-use services around the Th e recommendation was considered. A response is province. Of course, that's broken down into diff erent that mobile crisis response services, such as Car 67, re- areas. Th e community-based mental health and addic- ferred to in the recommendation, are most eff ective and tions services total is just over $618 million. effi cient when provided within a limited catchment area and involve police and mental health staff from the lo- M. Elmore: Just continuing, I also had a question in cal community. terms of the value and role of community-based mental Th at model of crisis response is available in some com- health services — certainly understanding the shift in munities — I mentioned a similar model in my com- terms away from institutionalization and encouraging munity of Kamloops — while in others, mental health individuals who have mental health challenges to be in- mobile response teams exist and provide care in partner- tegrated into the community and to be able to live pro- ductive and fulfi lling lives. ship with the police. All health authorities have mental [1120] health crisis services. Th ere have been numerous studies, certainly, and I We feel that this is being captured in a number of dif- would presume that it's integrated in terms of the ap- ferent ways around the province, and the police services proach for the provision of mental health services here and mental health staff continue to work closely together in British Columbia. to try to integrate those services. My understanding, speaking with a number of groups…. In particular, I have a specifi c question around S. Hammell: I have a number of people here who the Art Studios, which provides an art-based therapy — a are wanting to ask specifi c questions, so I'll fi rst ask the very eff ective program — in Vancouver-Kensington. Its member for Coquitlam-Maillardville to speak, because art-based therapy has been proven to be very eff ective she has to leave. in supporting individuals who have experienced quite severe mental health issues, providing support for them S. Robinson: I have a question for the Minister of and their families to allow them a number of benefi ts that Health that has to do with Riverview lands. In particu- have been shown to assist with their recovery, to have lar, we heard from the Minister for Housing that he sees them integrated into the community, to provide services this as an important piece for looking at future health that are accessible to them. care issues. He mentioned in question period a number It's cost-effective. In ensuring that they access the of weeks ago that Riverview is seen as "a long-term asset community-based program, it has minimized hospital for British Columbia — for health care, mental health, stays. Oft en that's where the higher costs are incurred. addictions and other opportunities to help people in B.C." Once these individuals, when they're managing their [1115] mental health illnesses, are able to access this program I'd like to ask the minister: what will this ministry be and not be forced to make hospital stays, that's also a doing with Riverview in terms of mental health and ad- benefi t. dictions for the province of B.C.? Certainly, there's a benefi t in cost to the system. Th ere's a benefi t in individual care. Th ere's also the benefi t to Hon. T. Lake: Th e Riverview lands are still held by the their friends and families of ensuring that their loved Crown, and the Minister of Citizens' Services would be ones are cared for and able to function more fully in so- the minister responsible for those lands. Of course, the ciety. In terms of not only the value and benefi t, gener- Minister Responsible for Housing, who made the state- ally, of community-based health care services but of the ment, would…. Th at, I believe, is a vision statement that eff ectiveness, this Art Studios program has been nation- he has. We have not done any sort of strategizing at any ally recognized as a very unique program, an eff ective detailed level as to what that would look like, but it cer- peer-based program. tainly will be the discussion in future years. My question is: based on these strengths of these pro- 1102 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

grams, will the minister reinstate funding for the Art has already been laid off for this program. Annually there Studios? are about 80 to 100 students who go through the pro- gram. Th ese are primarily people who, obviously, have Hon. T. Lake: I mentioned the dramatic increase English as a second language and people with severe in spending on mental health and substance use — a mental illness. 58-percent increase over the last 12 years. Each individ- Th e Vancouver Coastal Health Authority actually did ual health authority makes decisions about how to best a review of this program, and their conclusion states: utilize the resources necessary. "Mental health consumers cope with considerable prejudice in Th is was a decision by Vancouver Coastal Health. Th at our society and experience multiple barriers to accessing health care and other services. When they do not have English language is certainly their decision, as to the best ways of providing skills, it becomes even more diffi cult for them to communicate services to the community that needs mental health and their health care needs and to fi nd ways to feel connected to the substance-use supports. I understand there is a private community around them. donor that has come forward to keep this program go- "Th e ACE program provides a unique and much-needed service ing. Th at is something we can certainly commend, but we and opportunity for mental health consumers" — who want to learn English; this is a very valuable, important service provid- have, as I mentioned, dramatically increased the amount ing an opportunity for non-English speakers — "who might not of money we spend on this complex issue. Health author- otherwise be able to participate in ESL classes." ities do the work in terms of deciding and implementing Th is is the conclusion of Vancouver Coastal Health on programs that they feel make the most eff ective use, get- the ACE program. ting the best outcomes for their clients. [1130] Th at said, it is now the case that the ACE program J. Kwan: Could the minister please tell me: what is the is no longer considered a core program, and it is being average cost of a psychiatric bed? eliminated. You have about 80 to 100 students who go [1125] through the program each year, many of them with se- vere mental illness. Hon. T. Lake: It would depend. Th e costs per day, per Based on the information that I have, this program patient, would depend on the level of care necessary. We costs about $180,000 to run. In supporting the 80 to 100 could be talking about a forensic psychiatric facility like students, you're looking at about a little over $2,000 or the Hillside centre in Kamloops where there would be $2,250, if it's on the count of 80. I'll go with the lower perhaps a higher cost per day versus other psychiatric count, just to be generous around the estimation here. wards and hospitals where there would be lower. Th at's about $2,250 per student a year. Th e ward rate for hospitals generally runs between In the event that a student is not able to access this pro- $900 and $1,200 a day, not counting ICU, of course, so it gram and the mental health condition worsens, it then would be in that general range. results in them having to go to hospital, to be hospital- ized. Th e minister just advised that the cost, on average, J. Kwan: As a follow-up, I'm wondering how many is somewhere between $900 and $1,200, in that range. beds there are in the province of British Columbia. Th at is to say that if one person suff ers a setback and has to be hospitalized two nights — right? — that would be Hon. T. Lake: We had this discussion earlier, but I'm the cost of this program on that person. So on a cost- happy to try and fi nd the numbers once again. It depends, eff ectiveness basis, this program makes sense. again, on the types of beds we're talking about. I have a stack of letters, documentation, reports from When you talk about mental health and substance- doctors, from various students who have gone through use beds throughout the province…. Th ose would be a the program, talking about the value of that program for range of community; residential care; family care homes; those students. One letter actually says, "I need ACE just crisis residential care, which is short stay; supported like I need my daily medication. I cannot survive without housing; youth residential treatment; adult detox; youth it. ACE is my medication" — as an example. detox; supported housing for group homes; dedicated Another woman had gone through huge traumas in sites. With all of those brought together, there are 12,424. her life. She told me personally that to not be able to ac- When we talk about forensic psychiatric beds, I believe cess this program makes her feel empty. Prior to the pro- the number was 190. gram, when she had her breakdown aft er having lost her father, she used to walk in her room in circles all day long. J. Kwan: Well, I appreciate that information. Th at's what she did. Th en her doctor sent her and referred As it was raised with the minister during question per- her to a number of programs. ACE was one of them. Th en iod, the Access Community through English program over time she learned English and began to open up. She — known as the ACE program — as the minister knows, now volunteers for the health authority, helping other is being eliminated. In fact, August 7 will be the last day, people with disabilities and seniors. She's not yet work- when the doors will be shut for this program. Th e staff ing on a paid basis, but she's made signifi cant progress. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1103

Without this program, I think we can imagine what Canadian citizenship, etc. that impact might be like for her. I know that the gov- Not being able to get her CareCard, she had to try and ernment would like to say, and I saw it on the public re- get a birth certifi cate changed in Britain. Well, if you've cord, that they could be referred elsewhere. Just so that had a gender reassignment, you have to go through the the minister knows in terms of the referral, there are less General Medical Council. Th e General Medical Council than a handful of people who have been referred to a dif- requires two reports from specialists in Britain. Th ey ferent program. None of the programs that they've been would not accept an internationally recognized special- referred to provide for mental health support as they're ist in Vancouver. learning English as a second language. We now think, however, that maybe they've changed Many of their students have gone to other programs their policy and they will allow that. Meanwhile, we're and have failed in those programs. It's not to say that back here. those organizations who off er the programs are defi cient MSP knows there's a problem. Your ministry has been in providing ESL learning. Th e problem is that they don't working on the issue and a number of months ago said: have the mental health support and the training to pro- "Well, we hope to have it resolved in a few months." A vide that kind of support for this population. few months went by. We called. Our offi ce is very in- Th is is one of a kind. It is an award-winning program. volved in this. Th ere is no other like it in the entire country, let alone in "Well, we've got a policy now. We think we've got a British Columbia. policy that will be accepted, but it's the process." It's the For today's purpose, I want to urge the minister to process, and we wouldn't be able to resolve this until at please review the program. If he would like, I could set least the end of the year. up meetings for him to meet with the students there to What I'm saying is that this is an issue that really re- review this program. Th is is an eff ective program, and it quires a CareCard to have a redesignation of sexual is eff ective on two counts — eff ective for the people who orientation on it. It's just a clear case of changing the are using it on a human level and eff ective on a cost level. name on the CareCard. I really want to urge the minister to take a second look All of the medical documentation is there. Everything at this. It's $180,000. I think we can aff ord to do this, and has been done according to code. We need the minister, it will save the system money if we can save this program. at this point, to satisfy this individual and get this pro- I'll leave that with the minister. If he would like to fol- cess in place or make an exception in this instance. My low up with this, I would be happy to engage in a further friend is incredibly frustrated. Th is has been going on discussion with him about it, have him meet with some for well over a year. of the students, have them tell the minister their own I don't want to make it sound at all like a threat, but personal stories. He can see the results of what they have when you read the B.C. human rights code, section 8, achieved because of this program. this is not appropriate. Th e reasonable justifi cation for [1135] discrimination, I think, has long passed at this point. I would really appreciate the minister's comment on this V. Huntington: I thank the critic for giving me some and action on this particular issue. opportunity here. [1140] Th e fi rst question I have for the minister is in regards to an issue of a constituent of mine. A friend of mine, a con- Hon. T. Lake: I would be happy to discuss individual stituent of mine, many years ago was in a serious accident cases off line with the member, as I've not heard from her and is quadriplegic. A number of years ago she began the on this issue before. I've been told that it is quite com- gender redesignation process, legally, in the province — plex policy work that is nearing completion and should specialists, through the counselling, the pharmaceuticals, be done this fall, but I'm happy to have a meeting with the operations. She has now had a gender reidentifi cation. the member to go over the details of that. So came the time for my friend to get her documen- tation resolved. She went to ICBC to get the new service V. Huntington: I'll certainly take the minister up on card, to have her CareCard changed into the new sex it. I apologize if I haven't been talking to the minister on designation, gender designation. ICBC had changed its this specifi c case. My constituency offi ce is deeply en- policies and immediately gave her a new driver's licence. gaged with the ministry on it. Care, however, was not able to change the designa- Really, what it boils down to at this point is that there's tion on her CareCard. It requires a birth certifi cate. Here — I can't tell you — anger, frustration, sadness and hurt, there was Vital Statistics. As long as the surgery occurred and there's a lack of dignity involved in this. When you in British Columbia, Vital Statistics can take care of that. think, really, she has a legal CareCard, and the name is However, in this case my friend was born in Britain and the same. It just needs the gender changed on it so that came here about a year aft er she was born. So she's lived she feels whole — that her identity is recognized by the her entire life in Canada with Canadian documentation, province. 1104 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

I think there's a compelling reason to move here far regional hospitals are located, helicopter service makes more quickly than the ministry has been able to. As an a lot of sense. In fact, it is employed throughout Interior outsider, the red tape involved in this particular thing is Health, and I've heard stories from physicians — how extraordinary. Yes, it's confused by the fact that she has helicopters not only support what they do in terms of to go through Britain to get a gender change on the birth managing their critical care patients but actually have certifi cate, but at the same time, the operation is legal. If saved their patients' lives by getting timely treatment and she had been born here, Vital Statistics would have recog- timely access to hospital. nized that and changed it immediately. I just feel that the Also, throughout many areas of the province we have minister does need to have a good talk with his offi cials what are called high-acuity response teams. Th ese teams and try and realize…. sometimes can include a critical care nurse, a respiratory I don't think that this is as complicated as it's being technician and an emergency room doctor who will go made out to be. Yes, it's a policy change, but it should in the ambulance so that they are administering pre- have been done a long time ago. I will contact the minis- admission care at the site of the trauma. Obviously, the ter's offi ce and sit down specifi cally on this case with him, prognosis for that patient becomes much greater. and I thank him for that. So pre-hospitalization treatment is critical, and we ap- My further question is a little less onerous and a little proach it in a number of diff erent ways, depending on the less personal. Th e Fraser Health Authority has estimated needs of the particular part of the province. that the lost productivity, long-term care and rehabilita- tion of accident trauma victims are costing the province V. Huntington: I wonder if the minister could point me about $2.8 billion a year. Many studies throughout the to any studies, documentation, any information on how world and some jurisdictions have improved pre-hospital the pre-hospital care, especially in the Air Ambulance transportation, including more eff ective air ambulance Service, is organized in the province? services, and have found that it not only saves lives but [1150] has saved millions of dollars by decreasing the long-term I know that the ambulance service is presently look- care of individuals, the rehabilitation, simply by provid- ing at its personnel and aircraft locations. I would like to ing more timely treatment. know when the minister expects that study and review [1145] to be done and whether there's any existing information I'm wondering if the minister can tell me: when was on their present capacity. the last time the ministry, the B.C. Ambulance Service or the Provincial Health Services Authority worked with an Hon. T. Lake: Late last year the Auditor General sub- independent body or post-secondary institution to con- mitted a report on the B.C. Ambulance Service which duct a cost-benefi t analysis of improving pre-hospital was accepted by the Ambulance Service. In British care in British Columbia? Columbia, as I mentioned, with our diff erent topography and challenges, we have a delivery model that integrates Hon. T. Lake: Just going back to the fi rst issue the ground and air operations to provide consistent, effi cient member raised. Whereas I appreciate that you and your and high-quality care for patients. staff may have been working with my staff , we've been in Th at service in 2011-2012 was used for 7,700 patients. this House fi ve weeks. So there were many opportunities Th e Auditor General identifi ed areas that need improve- to come and have a personal discussion, and I could have ment. Th e B.C. Ambulance Service will be implementing addressed the member's concerns perhaps a little earlier. all of them. When it comes to pre-hospitalization treatment, there Th e three recommendations were to actively manage is a lot of work that is ongoing. Th e ministry itself and the performance of its Air Ambulance Service to achieve the B.C. Ambulance Service haven't done a specifi c cost- desired service standards for the quality, timeliness and benefi t analysis. When you look across medicine, it has safety of patient care. Th e second was to review whether become abundantly obvious that earlier treatment is bet- the distribution of staff and aircraft across the province ter. Th e golden hour, of course, is a very well-known tenet is optimal for responding to demand for air ambulance of emergency medicine. service. Th e third was to regularly identify and review a Our province is so diff erent in terms of geography, in sample of air ambulance dispatch decisions to ensure that terms of topography and in terms of the regional facili- resources are allocated with due consideration for patient ties available that each part of the province would have needs and available resources. a diff erent type of approach to this problem. In urban Th e Ambulance Service is currently working on those centres, obviously, helicopter use may not be appropriate, recommendations. Th e Auditor General will come back and the use of critical care teams on ambulances would in October of 2014, so the response will be in place at be more appropriate. that time. In my area of the province, where we have much wider distances between where people live and where the J. Darcy: Back to mental health, briefl y, before lunch. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1105

A couple weeks ago I raised in the House and with the Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported minister privately the issue of Lookout Society in New progress, was granted leave to sit again. Westminster, where a budget of $80,000 had been cut by Fraser Health Authority, and asked the minister why Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported that was the case and asked him to take action to have progress, was granted leave to sit again. that funding restored. Th e minister's response at the time was that the work Committee of Supply (Section C), having reported that was being done by Lookout Society was being taken progress, was granted leave to sit again. up by the assertive community treatment program, ACT. I want to return to this issue and inform the minister, and Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House. also ask a question, because I have explored this further with folks in New Westminster and with Lookout Society. Motion approved. Th e ACT program is a clinical treatment program that involves nurses and doctors and other clinical specialists Madame Speaker: Th is House at its rising stands ad- who deal with chronic mental illnesses. Th ey do excel- journed till 1:30 this aft ernoon. lent work. [1155] Th e House adjourned at 11:58 a.m. But there was a particular niche that was being fi lled — an absolutely critical one — by this program, and it in- PROCEEDINGS IN THE volves $80,000. It involves outreach workers. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Th ey are not health specialists per se, but they deal with health issues. Th ey have experience dealing with Committee of Supply the homeless. Th ey do outreach with street-entrenched homeless who are dealing with mental illnesses, who are ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF dealing with addictions, who are dealing with undiag- ABORIGINAL RELATIONS nosed medical conditions like brain injuries, in some AND RECONCILIATION cases. Th ey're dealing with people whose health is already compromised. And it will become more compromised Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. if they don't get support. Th ey have a particular area of Dalton in the chair. specialization of outreach with the homeless that has a major health component, but they are not a clinical out- Th e committee met at 10:07 a.m. reach team. I would ask the minister if he would please meet with On Vote 11: ministry operations, $34,552,000. the Lookout Society, meet with Fraser Health, in order to reconsider that decision. In our city there has been Hon. J. Rustad: I'd like to make a few opening com- enormous progress made in the last number of years in ments. First of all, I'd like to recognize that we're on the reducing homelessness. Th is project, this program, has traditional territory of the Songhees and Esquimalt First been an important component of it. Nations. With me today through this are my deputy, Steve Hon. T. Lake: Th e outreach service the member is re- Munro; also, Assistant Deputy Peter Walters; Assistant ferring to that was being provided by the Lookout Society Deputy Peter Cunningham; and Assistant Deputies is a duplicate of the service that is being provided by B.C. Charles Porter and Neilane Mayhew. Neilane Mayhew Housing. Health authorities have a responsibility to en- is the assistant deputy minister of corporate services for sure that they're using their operating dollars to the best the natural resources sector. effi cacy for their clients and for the best value to the tax- Partnerships with First Nations are a vital part of the payer. Th is was a decision made because of a duplication B.C. jobs plan and have the potential to create major of services. economic benefi ts and new opportunities across British Noting the hour, I move the House now rise, report Columbia. Since the last estimates discussions we have progress and seek leave to sit again. achieved a number of signifi cant accomplishments, and I'd like to just touch on a few of those highlights before Motion approved. we get into questions. In particular, in April of this year the Minister of Th e committee rose at 11:56 a.m. Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation signed the 18th non-treaty agreement achieved since the B.C. jobs plan Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. was launched, surpassing the commitment to ten new 1106 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

non-treaty agreements, two years ahead of schedule. everything in the amount of detail that I was hoping to. Th ese agreements include ten mine-revenue-sharing I was joking with the minister yesterday, saying that agreements with First Nations and the fi rst-ever revenue- perhaps tomorrow we could sit all day, just ourselves, and sharing agreement under the First Nations clean energy work through this budget process as well. But I think he'll business fund — which, I understand, the critic has a be heading back to the north, as I will be too. specifi c interest in — which will see the Tahltan Nation I wanted to start off today on a topic of reconciliation. benefi t from the Forrest Kerr hydroelectric project. It's in the ministry's name. It's a big part of many aspects Th ese are examples of B.C.'s innovative approach to of the core activities. And it's something that I think…. reaching non-treaty agreements that bring benefi ts more I'm going to talk about this in a way that is non-partisan quickly to First Nations communities. and as something I think we can find some solidar- [1010] ity upon, in relation to reconciliation. Although we're In addition to the success achieved in non-treaty here in budget estimates — and I am going to be talking agreements, B.C. remains committed to the treaty pro- about reconciliation that has to do with the ministry — cess and continues to make progress. Since they were I think we have to acknowledge what's going on around introduced, 15 incremental treaty agreements have been us right now. fi nalized. ITAs provide benefi ts for First Nations in ad- What's going on around us right now is the release just vance of reaching a treaty. recently of horrifi c information around starving children Th is year B.C. passed legislation to ratify the Tla'amin being used in experiments in residential schools. We got Nation fi nal agreement. Th e Kitsumkalum and Kitselas the information last week that up to 1,300 First Nations, communities recently voted in favour of their fi nal agree- most of them children, were used in biomedical experi- ment, and of course, the Senate recently just gave royal ments sanctioned by the federal government. Th is was assent to the Yale First Nation fi nal agreement, for which between 1942 and 1952. B.C. had previously passed its own legislation. Th e scenario is something I don't think the minister, We have made some great achievements through this myself, British Columbians or most Canadians would ministry. I think there is certainly some more to be done, even contemplate as being part of how we see ourselves but we're seeing tremendous progress. as Canadians. Researchers decided that isolated, depend- In particular, when you look at what we are facing with ent, hungry people would be ideal subjects for tests on the opportunities around liquefi ed natural gas and the the eff ects of diff erent diets. Th is was research that was other resource developments, there is enormous poten- turned up by a University of Guelph professor into food tial for our entire province to prosper, for both aborigin- history research. Material that he was able to fi nd during al and non-aboriginal alike. Our ministry is focused on his research revealed this. trying to make sure that we maximize what those oppor- [1015] tunities can be and that we bring benefi ts to First Nations, What has happened since then is that this material aboriginals and non-aboriginals across the province for came to light and was published in an academic journal the benefi t of all British Columbians. right while the Assembly of First Nations was meeting — their national assembly in Whitehorse. Again, this was D. Donaldson: Thank you for that opening state- last week. ment by the minister. I congratulate him on his new role What I am proposing to the minister is that we ac- and his entry into cabinet as the Minister of Aboriginal knowledge the wrongs that happened, which are typifi ed Relations and Reconciliation. I think it's a very import- by this horrifi c experimentation sanctioned by the fed- ant portfolio for the province and for the north and the eral government; that there is a B.C. connection, in that northwest, an area that we share and have roots in and some of the children in the second round of experiments, concerns about. So congratulations on that. I think beginning in 1943, attended the Port Alberni resi- I know, as I said, it's his fi rst portfolio, as Aboriginal dential school — so there is a B.C. connection; that this Relations and Reconciliation. Th is is my fi rst estimates was a terribly wrong thing to happen; and that we ac- in that portfolio as well, so I'm very happy that we have knowledge the concerns of the AFN and the local head a lot of competent staff here to help us through the an- of the AFN, as expressed at the AFN assembly. swering of the questions I'll have on the budget process. Th e First Nations Summit has come out with a state- I would like to say that I am dismayed somewhat by the ment on this. Th e Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs has come amount of time we have allotted today. I think we have out with a statement. about fi ve hours to consider about $82 million or $83 What I'm proposing is that we acknowledge the wrongs million. It works out, I think, to about $17 million or $19 here, that we acknowledge the concerns by those three million an hour. I think people in the province would ex- groups and that we also refl ect item 6 in the emergency pect us to spend a bit more time on that. So I will have a resolution that was passed by the AFN calling on the fed- number of written questions that I'll submit to the minis- eral and provincial governments "to initiate a strategic ter, because we're not going to have enough time to cover plan, created in partnership with indigenous peoples, Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1107

to ensure information regarding scientifi c information that committee was activated. I think it was either '95 on indigenous peoples is made public and is refl ected or '96 the last time it sat, although MLAs are appointed in the public education curriculum." And it goes on a to it every year since then on both sides of the govern- little bit there. ment. No matter who's been in power, it hasn't sat since I would be more than willing to stand shoulder to '95 or '96. shoulder with the minister if he would draft a letter ac- I would suggest to the minister that this is, again, a knowledging those wrongs, acknowledging the concerns, non-partisan issue that would be a good topic for the to the federal government and put the province of B.C. Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs to ad- on the record that we don't think this is right. Th is is not dress, especially in relation to the AFN emergency reso- something that we think should have been done, and this lution, clause 6, where they're calling on the federal and is part of what we consider the reconciliation process — provincial governments to initiate a strategic plan, in by writing a letter to the federal government. I'd be happy partnership with indigenous peoples, to ensure that in- to cosign that letter and to present a united front in a pub- formation regarding scientifi c experimentation is made lic statement on how wrong this was. public and to include that information in the public cur- [1020] riculum. Regardless of where we look at that, I would ask for Hon. J. Rustad: Th ank you to the critic for his open- the minister's consideration and comments on this be- ing remarks. As we both share the northwest and many ing an excellent topic for the Select Standing Committee similar concerns, I actually look forward to our rela- on Aboriginal Aff airs to undertake. Th ere are six mem- tionship over the coming time, however long that may bers from the government side on that and four members be, and to have the opportunity to be able to work on a from the offi cial opposition. We could work together to number of issues. once again demonstrate how seriously we take this issue. Th ere's no question that in Canada's history and, in We know that First Nations children who attended particular, in Canada's relationship with First Nations, the Port Alberni residential school were impacted, but there have been many wrongs. Th ere have been a number we're not sure how widespread this experimentation of things that have happened over time that have been was. And again, it was horrifi c. You know, withholding wrong. Th is is a new piece of information, of course, that milk from starving children in the name of science…. has come to light, on which I agree with the member op- Th is was ethically questionable at the time but defi nitely posite and with the First Nations leadership — that this something that…. was wrong in terms of the actions that were taken. We need to understand how widespread these eff ects Although this is a federal jurisdiction in terms of this, were in B.C. I would suggest that would be a fi ne topic I do agree and want to take into consideration what the for…. I think the word is that the minister has to "em- member has suggested in terms of a letter that could be power" the committee. Th at's the technical word, and I draft ed acknowledging the wrong that was done with would ask what the minister's thoughts might be on that. this. I'd be happy, once we can get something like that [1025] draft ed, to allow the member to have a look at it and pos- sibly look at the opportunity to maybe even send that as Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite, I appreci- a joint letter. ate his thoughts and his suggestion around the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs. That is D. Donaldson: Thanks to the minister for that re- a committee that hasn't been active for many years. sponse. Certainly, I'll consider the suggestion that has come for- Yes, it would be a fi ne opportunity to get on the record ward. At this particular point we don't have any plans around this. As I said, this event has sent shock waves to constitute the committee or charge it with a task. throughout the First Nations communities and, I think, However, it's something I'll consider and think about over the rest of Canada as well. So to get the province of B.C. the next little while. on the record to at least acknowledge that we don't con- Reconciliation and how we reach the reconciliation sider this acceptable behaviour in any way whatsoever, with First Nations to deal with many of those things I'd be very happy to work with the minister on draft ing over time is something that we take very seriously. It is, a letter and attaching my name to that letter on behalf of of course, part of the name in terms of the ministry. But the offi cial opposition. more than that, we've been reaching out and trying to Before I leave this topic — which I think is a good one form partnerships with First Nations across the province. for us to start off with, because it's something that we We've been reaching out, in particular, to fi nd the best can stand together shoulder to shoulder on — I wanted form of reconciliation, which is to come to treaty and to to also get the minister's opinion and his comments on be able to move forward with treaty with First Nations. the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs. We've had some success, and we're seeing some accel- He knows as well as I do that it's been a long time since eration and some opportunities around there, particu- 1108 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

larly through non-treaty agreements but also through Hon. J. Rustad: Th e amount of $19.994 million is the agreements-in-principle and through incremental treaty budget that we have available for salaries and benefi ts. Of agreements. We recognize that we need to be working course, we have a number of staff within that. But we ac- with the leadership across the province. We need to be tually try to manage within the overall budget, and so the working with First Nations across the province to be able number of FTEs can fl uctuate back and forth, depending to bring that kind of reconciliation. on a number of variables. We don't actually have the de- Like I say, we are making progress on that, but cer- tailed information that the member has asked for. tainly, there is more work to be done. We look forward to those opportunities. D. Donaldson: Th at's unfortunate. I would think that as a minister you'd want to know the number of people D. Donaldson: Th anks to the minister for that. Th at's or the number of FTEs that they have at your disposal something that I'm sure we can have a continuing dis- in the ministry. cussion about outside of this budget estimates process So it's fl uctuating back and forth. Can the minister give — the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs, me an idea of: is it fl uctuating back and forth so that we as it's called. have the same number of FTEs, approximately, as the last I want to move on now into some specifi cs on the budget cycle, or less or more, in this one? budget estimates. I know that the minister has a number [1035] of the staff here, and we discussed earlier what some of the topics will be. Hon. J. Rustad: Last year's total budget around salary Just to give an idea of how things…. How I plan to and benefi ts was $19.375 million. As we did last year, as use the time this morning is to ask some specifi c ques- we'll do this year, we actually work to our total budget in tions around the budget and then delve a little further terms of that, so there is some fl uctuation. But we don't into the questions around the treaty process and then track those numbers directly. around the non-treaty agreements. So that's the way I hope we'll be able to cover that amount of information D. Donaldson: I think if you're comparing…. Th is before noon today. government oft en likes to compare itself to the business Starting off , now that we're into the actual budget es- world. In the business world, I think that when a CEO timates, I want to acknowledge that we are on the trad- gets asked, "How many people do you have working for itional territories of the Songhees and Esquimalt First you?" they have an answer. Nations and appreciate that we're having our meeting I fi nd it quite astonishing that the minister doesn't on their territories. have an answer to a simple question like, "How many [1030] people work for you?" — whether it's FTEs or any other One thing right off the bat that raised a question for kind of number. Maybe we'll be able to get a commitment me was the amount in this vote that the minister put from the minister to provide that in writing at a later date forward in his opening remarks. In the budget informa- to me, if it's not available now. tion I have — I'm just seeking some clarifi cation here — Let's talk specifi cally, then. Th is vote is about…. Part Vote 11, for ministry operations, I have $34.552 million. of this Vote 11, for the amount we've mentioned, is to In the estimates for 2013-'14 — I don't think that jibed do with negotiations and regional operations. Could the with what the minister said in his opening comments, so minister give me an idea of how many FTEs or staff work perhaps he could clarify that. in regional operations, and how many are here in the cen- tral ministry in Victoria? Hon. J. Rustad: Th e motion that was moved this mor- [1040] ning was for the ministerial operations, for $34.552 mil- lion. Hon. J. Rustad: We have eight regional offi ces as part of our operations, plus our Victoria offi ce. Of course, as D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. Maybe my ears I mentioned earlier, we manage our staffi ng levels to our weren't full of caff eine enough. I thought I heard $33 budget. When we have needs, of course, we're bring- million. I'm happy, though, because that's the fi gure I've ing people on, and those sorts of things can fl uctuate. been working with. Approximately, at any given time, it could be 15 or 20 Could the minister inform: that amount, which in- percent, give or take, that would be located out in our cludes $19.994 million for salaries and benefi ts, what regional offi ces. Like I say, that can fl uctuate from time the FTE number in that is? For those who might not be to time based on how we manage to our ultimate num- familiar, that's full-time-equivalent — in other words, a ber within our ministerial budget. refl ection of the number of people working for the min- istry for that amount of money. What is the FTE number D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that information. As the for this budget estimate, '13-14, and what was it last year? minister is aware, most of the negotiations around treaty Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1109

and non-treaty agreements are on territories that lie out- able to work together with all ministries to make some side of Victoria. When you've got 15 to 20 percent of the tough decisions. staff in regional offi ces — I think that's what I heard the Yes, the numbers have changed a little bit over the last minister tell me — that means you've got 80 percent of number of years, but we have been very eff ective work- the staff in Victoria, where most of the First Nations that ing within those numbers to be able to deliver on the we're attempting to reconcile with aren't located. opportunities that we're looking at to make sure that we Would the minister contemplate allotting more of his can further our goals around the jobs plan. But certainly, staff resources and FTEs out into the regional offi ces, balancing our budget is the number one priority. It's the where the actual relationships get built with First Nations number one issue in my mandate letter, and it continues to achieve reconciliation, versus in Victoria? to be a priority for our government going forward.

Hon. J. Rustad: We're actually proud of the work we're D. Donaldson: Th anks to the minister for acknow- doing in building relationships across the province with ledging that information that I forwarded to him in the many First Nations. We have a very good team that is in last question around the last three years seeing a decrease place, which has been in place for a number of years, in in the ministry operations budget. terms of the core of our team, in building those relation- On that topic that he raised around balancing the ships. Some of that, particularly around treaty, is out in budget, we know a core review process is underway, look- our regional offi ces, and some of that's in our Victoria ing at fi nding $30 million in cuts across ministries. Can offi ces. Having consistency around how you build those the minister advise what cuts in his ministry might be relationships and work on that is important. considered to achieve this $30 million? But we also make sure that within our ministry we [1050] do adapt to meet the various priorities that we come up against when we're into those negotiations. Th at's why Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite: thank you earlier, when the member asked how many people were for the question. out in the regional offi ces, I gave a number that can vary One of the things that we believe is important, which and that could even be greater than 20 percent. It just de- is why we actually have put forward to do the core review, pends on how we adapt to our priorities involved with is that it has actually been more than ten years since we how our relationships are moving along and which vari- last conducted a core review in the province. So we feel ous fi les we have across the province that we're making it's a good time to actually re-evaluate, especially through progress with. the challenging economic times and the process going forward, and ensure that the structure for success, par- D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. I just want to ticularly within our resource sectors, is focused on the confi rm, before I get into some specifi cs on the alloca- highest-priority programs and services. Government tion in this vote that we're discussing for Vote 11, which has already done a good job, of course, of managing our is basically the core activities of the ministry, $34.552 costs, but we can always know that there is more that million…. can be done. [1045] With regards to specifi cs around targets that are within I just want to ensure that the minister acknowledges the core review mandate, we have not received any in- these numbers. Last year it was $34.977 million. In '11- formation at this particular point from the minister that 12, the year before that, it was $35.010 million. So in has undertaken the core review, but I think if the mem- fact, we've seen a decrease over the last three years in the ber opposite has some additional questions around the budget for ministry core operations year to year. core review, it might be better directed to the Minister of Energy and Mines, responsible for the core review. Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite, I think he has a copy of the mandate letter. Th e number one issue in D. Donaldson: I don't have any additional questions my mandate letter, the number one priority that's come on the core review. I just want to get a commitment from forward, is to contribute to the overall province in terms the minister that when considering core services, this of balancing our budget. We believe very strongly that we budget that he's presented today is extremely important need to be fi scally responsible, that we need to be able for the province, for First Nations, for social, economic, to build credibility with our creditors, but also be able to environmental reasons and issues, so that he will fi ght have that certainty across the province and to investors to ensure that the core review leaves the ministry oper- coming in looking at our province. ations as is, when they're looking at cutting $30 million A balanced budget is something that we believe is a from the budget. I just wanted to encourage the minis- high priority. Th e Premier has made that a top prior- ter to stand up for his portfolio, and I'd be very happy to ity. Our government ran on that in the last election. But support him in that. getting to a balanced budget means that you have to be I have a specifi c question in regards to Vote 11. Th is is 1110 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

something that I am hoping the minister and, especially, — how much of that was contract services? And if there the staff can help me out with. In STOB 85 "Other ex- are contract services in that $481,000, how many of those penses," under "Executive and support services," there's were tendered and how many were direct-award? a just a little over $2 million line item. Th e $1.907 mil- [1100] lion under "Corporate services." Could the minister ad- vise what this amount is intended for? Hon. J. Rustad: Of course, as the member knows, we are just a number of months now into a new fi scal year, Hon. J. Rustad: To the member's initial earlier com- so that is the amount that has been budgeted. Of course, ment about core review, I just wanted to mention that you know, some work is undergoing, but there's no way to we believe, in government, that we owe it to taxpayers to be able give a breakdown at this point as to what might be make sure that they're getting the best value they can for spent under which particular categories over the course their tax dollars. So, of course, the process of core review of the year, as we are only partway into the year. will be extensive, will be comprehensive in terms of the process looking forward and will be done responsibly, D. Donaldson: Th anks for that. If I could get a com- prudently and quickly. mitment, then — similarly to the off er the minister gave We recognize, of course, that we're already the leanest before — of a breakdown of the answer to that question public service in Canada, so it's not about designating a for last year's budget estimate, that would be appreciated. project to cut jobs. Rather, it's about making sure that we are as effi cient as we can possibly be in how we deliver the Hon. J. Rustad: From last year. services and how we go about our day-to-day operations. [1055] D. Donaldson: Yeah. It would be an actual rather than Specifi cally to the question the member has around an estimate. the executive and support services of $2.002 million, a lot Moving on here, STOB 80. There's $5.771 mil- of that is around overhead — things like legal costs, cor- lion, under transferred shared cost agreements, for porate services that we are a part of in terms of govern- "Partnerships and community renewal" and "Strategic ment, in terms of a number of ministries, facility space. initiatives." Could the minister elaborate on what those What I would off er to the member opposite is that we items refl ect? can give you a breakdown of all of that, if you would like. Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite, his fi rst part D. Donaldson: Yes, I'll take the minister up on that of that question, which was around the information from off er to give a breakdown. In this $1.907 million for cor- last year — we commit that we will get whatever informa- porate services, how much of that is spent on contractors tion we can to him on that, as he has asked. or contract services? With regards to the other question on STOB 80, which is around partnerships, that is the amount that we actual- Hon. J. Rustad: My commitment to the member op- ly go out and engage with the various organizations and posite in the House the other day was to try to be brief support various organizations through our ministry, or- with answers, because I know he does have a lot to go ganizations such as the B.C. Treaty Commission. through. But specifi cally with regards to the $1.907 mil- lion — I believe he's referring to STOB 85 from his ear- D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. Well, there is a lier question — to the best of my knowledge, there are good segue into another question that I had for this par- no contract services under that amount. ticular part of the estimates process. Under Vote 11 what is the amount that the province allocates, under this min- D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that information. I have istry, to negotiations around treaty — and also, separately, many questions on specifi c line items here. I will provide allocates to the actual B.C. Treaty Commission? So two some of them in writing, because time is fl eeting. diff erent questions there. I still would like to touch on two other areas. Th ere's a [1105] line item under "Strategic initiatives" — under STOB 60, which is "Professional services" — for $481,000. Could Hon. J. Rustad: As you know, we are going out and the minister advise what this entails? engaging with First Nations and building those relation- ships. We're talking treaty and other potential agree- Hon. J. Rustad: Th e amount of money that is under ments. Th ere is a lot of overlap between many of those STOB 60 is primarily around implementing a variety of discussions, so we don't actually have a direct breakdown, agreements, and they include things such as surveying as the member has asked, in terms of how much was costs. spent directly on treaty. To the second part of his question around the B.C. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. So the $481,000 Treaty Commission: last year we allocated $4.139 mil- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1111

lion to the B.C. Treaty Commission, and we're anticipat- curiosity to me, about what that might cover. ing that this year's allocation will be similar. Hon. J. Rustad: Amortization, as I'm sure the member D. Donaldson: A couple more questions on the spe- knows, is a standard practice in terms of…. When you cifi cs here. Th e minister's offi ce — salaries and benefi ts. have any sort of asset that is purchased or acquired, you In other words, the staffi ng costs are $389,000. Does the have to amortize that over time. So that amount likely minister have a chief of staff ? deals with computer systems, databases, those types of things, in terms of amortization. Hon. J. Rustad: Yes. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. I'll await the an- D. Donaldson: Last year was there a chief of staff , or swer on the revenues external to the government re- was that position called a ministerial assistant? porting entity. I'm interested in knowing where that $400,000 is coming from. You're going to be able to look Hon. J. Rustad: Last year the position of chief of staff up as we proceed today — might even be this aft ernoon. did not exist. It was a ministerial assistant. Th at's fi ne. I'd like to move on now to treaty. Th e minister men- D. Donaldson: What is the diff erence in salary paid tioned that the allocation — I want to make sure I get last year to a ministerial assistant — the uplift between this straight — from his ministry, from the provincial that and the chief of staff this year? government through his ministry to the B.C. Treaty Commission, was about $4.139 million in 2012-13, and Hon. J. Rustad: Th anks to the member for the ques- it'll be approximately the same in this estimates process. tion. As the member probably is aware, there is a range How is that number arrived at? for the position of chief of staff in terms of that. I think that information is available, and we can get that infor- Hon. J. Rustad: As I mentioned earlier, the amount of mation to you around what that range is for the chief of $4.139 million is what we're anticipating to be allocated staff position. again this year. Th at's derived through a cost-sharing ar- rangement that we have with the federal government. D. Donaldson: Okay. I'll take that as an affi rmation Th rough various discussions with the federal government, that the minister will provide in writing that information we come to that agreement. Like I say, we're anticipating to me at a later date aft er the budget estimates. that to be a similar amount for this year. [1115] Hon. J. Rustad: For the range. D. Donaldson: Is that a cost-sharing agreement where D. Donaldson: For the range. Th anks for that. He nod- the province is responsible for 40 percent of the funding ded acknowledgement for the range. for the B.C. Treaty Commission and the federal govern- Two more, hopefully, relatively quick questions. I ap- ment for 60 percent? preciate the minister trying to answer in a quick manner. Under STOB 90, revenues external to the government Hon. J. Rustad: Sorry, it took a little bit of time to sort reporting entity, there is a $401,000 external recovery for this through, because it's not just as simple as the oper- strategic initiatives. ational budget for the B.C. Treaty Commission. For the [1110] operations component, we have a 40 percent agreement Can the minister advise what this refl ects? from the province, 60 percent agreement from the federal government. When it comes to various negotiations and Hon. J. Rustad: Just in the fairness of time…. It'll take the loan side, of course, it's a little bit diff erent. So 80 per- us a little bit of time to look it up. If it's okay, we can ac- cent of the loan is guaranteed by the federal government. tually get that information to you with regards to what Th e remaining amount of that is split in terms of 40 per- the external recovery is. We can look it up if you'd like cent from the provincial and 60 percent from the federal. to wait longer. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. Yes, I'm aware of D. Donaldson: Th at's fi ne. In fact, I'll pose another the loan component and that part of the BCTC funding one in the meantime that might be something the staff process. But the $4.139 million — that's associated with that are here can work on, if they can't give you an im- operations, I believe. Is that the 40-60 percent? mediate answer. Just a curiosity. STOB 73 deals with amortization, Hon. J. Rustad: Out of the $4.139 million, approxi- and there's a $230,000 entry there for negotiations and mately $1.019 million actually goes towards the oper- regional operations to do with amortization. Th at is a ational amount, and $3 million is actually contributed 1112 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

to the negotiation side through the cost-sharing as de- BCTC as last year, when these issues — and the Treaty scribed earlier. Commission's head commissioner — raise an increas- ing workload? D. Donaldson: Th anks for that clarifi cation. Given [1125] that the importance of treaties is acknowledged in the service plan and by this government…. I'll quote: "… Hon. J. Rustad: We are in agreement around recon- long-term treaties that are the ultimate form of recon- ciliation and how treaties can be the best form of recon- ciliation and provide economic benefi ts and security for ciliation. At the beginning, in our opening statements, all British Columbians." we talked about a list of projects and of opportunities, of Th at's part of the service plan marching orders, to partnerships with First Nations and with the federal gov- negotiate the long-term treaties, and a recognition that ernment that we've seen success on. long-term treaties are the highest level of certainty, de- As the member said, the Yale treaty has gone through spite all the non-treaty agreements that we're seeing the federal government process now, so it's through that. these days, which, you know, provide benefi t, obviously, The Tla'amin — we've passed legislation here. We're to First Nations but don't deal with the governance issue, hoping that will go through federally — hopefully, be- which is the tough nut to crack, I believe, when it comes fore too long. to settling treaties. But as we talked about with the mandate letter, we're [1120] also in a situation where we are in tough fi scal times. We Given that and given the amount of work that the B.C. need to be able to manage our budgets. We need to be Treaty Commission is seeing…. Th e last few years have able to manage the money on behalf of the province as seen an increase in the number of later-stage negotiations, effi ciently as we possibly can. which is a positive sign, I agree. We've had two treaties As a sign of importance to going through the treaty signed — the Tsawwassen and the Maa-nulth — and process and to furthering the initiatives that we've been then many are in completed fi nal agreements. Th en there working on for a number of years now, we're pleased are many in advanced AIPs — agreements-in-principle. that we are able to maintain as close as we can to what Th ere's an increased workload for the BCTC, as keepers the numbers have been last year — even though we've of the process. gone through the challenge of bringing in and having a Th e minister, I know, met with the chair of the B.C. balanced budget. Treaty Commission, Sophie Pierre, and I did as well. She As I said earlier, our government has a priority of mov- described to me the increased amount of work and the ing forward in a fi scally responsible way, of making sure high priority that this government puts on the treaty pro- that we have a balanced budget — supporting our job cess but that that's not being backed up when it comes to growth, supporting our agenda going forward, to the a resource aspect. best of our abilities. You know, you've got two treaties that are signed off Moving forward with treaty and non-treaty opportun- for implementation. You've got a number waiting in the ities with First Nations is a big part of moving forward, wings, including the Yale. I believe that has been fi nalized particularly on the jobs agenda. As I mentioned, we're at the federal level now. You've got others, the Tla'amin maintaining, through the BCTC, what we can do. Like and others, that are almost there and others that have I said, that is a sign of the level of importance we've put moved up in the process. Th ese are getting to critical to being able to move forward and reach fi nal agreement stages. Much of the work is at a critical stage, I would say. and bring in that reconciliation. Th e BCTC, because of recent experiences, has seen in- creased work and has taken upon themselves, as part of D. Donaldson: Well, the minister has already ac- their mandate — which is a good part of their mandate knowledged that the budget for this ministry's oper- — to do more work on the ratifi cation process, because ations has declined each year in the last three years. And we've seen some need for that in recent situations. the head of the Treaty Commission, the chief commis- Th ey've also seen an increasing workload in what's sioner, Sophie Pierre, says the workload has increased called shared-boundary or shared-territory disputes and for the B.C. Treaty Commission. Yet the funding, which overlap issues. Th ose are critical, I think, for the future the province is providing to the Treaty Commission to workings of a treaty. I mean, we're seeing some of that do the work that it needs to do as keepers of the process, fallout with the Nisga'a treaty, and we're seeing some be- remains the same. tween the Gitksan and the downstream neighbours al- So when the minister talks about the importance of, ready. So there's a lot of work to be done on that as well. and how they protected, this budget, I don't think that on Th e Auditor General recommended an enhanced role for that evidence it's protecting the budget. Secondly, when the B.C. Treaty Commission in shared-territory disputes. the minister talks about his number one priority in his Given those, why would the minister have in his mandate letter as budgetary, then I think the right hand estimates the same amount of funding towards the needs to be talking to the left hand. We know that the new Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1113

revenue generated in the province comes mainly from Part of those building blocks, part of developing that natural resources in non-urban areas, and most of those process and that relationship is making sure that we have natural resources are found on the unceded traditional some consistency with the people that are working with territories of First Nations. our First Nations partners. From that end, we have ne- Unless you're doing the work on the reconciliation and gotiators that are engaged in both treaty and non-treaty. the treaty front, then you're not going to be able to reap Oft en they can be the same people that helped to work all the benefi ts that you want to, as a provincial govern- on those fi les, that helped to build those relationships ment, on the revenue-generating side. I would say that and that can lead us to a place where, through those as a word of caution going forward. government-to-government discussions we have be- Kim Baird, who we knew was the Chief of the Tsaw- tween the provincial government and First Nations, we're wassen band during the negotiation of that fi nal treaty…. able to enter into those opportunities. We can see benefi ts I'm quoting from the annual report for 2012 from the B.C. fl ow, we can see the diff erences they can make for First Treaty Commission, where it writes: "She worries that if Nations, and we can see how that can work together to First Nations rely solely on impact benefi t agreements come to that ultimate reconciliation by signing a treaty and other things, they are incrementally settling their and being able to have that certainty for all of the people title without the benefi ts of self-government." Again, it's — for First Nations and non–First Nations alike. a warning of the importance of the treaty process from a governance aspect, which from a self-government aspect D. Donaldson: Th e feedback I've gotten from the B.C. gives that certainty. Treaty Commission in staffi ng and the same staff being The question, after that preamble, to the minister involved in both negotiations is that it's not an ideal situ- would be: do we see the same people in the ministry ation, because the workload is high. It can also lead to operations negotiating at the treaty table as we do nego- confusion at the table when you've got the same person tiating for non-treaty agreements? talking treaty, which is governance-focused, especially, [1130] and then you've got the same staff working at a diff erent time on non-treaty, which is oft en economic. Sometimes Hon. J. Rustad: In the preamble there was something there's incremental ability there. But other times it's been that actually concerned me a little bit. I'm hoping the suggested that it's just too much workload and that it member opposite will have an opportunity to perhaps causes confusion. clarify a little bit of his comments in the preamble. We As far as his comments, I will defi nitely be picking up know and we agree that resource development in British on, especially during the non-treaty agreement discus- Columbia is a tremendous opportunity for all of British sion we're going to have, his comments around what Columbia aboriginal and non-aboriginal, particularly for the best approach there might be and how we advance liquid natural gas. We're being very aggressive in moving agreements and advance the exploitation of the natural that forward. We're hoping to see many other resource resources for the benefi t of all in the province. I will def- opportunities come forward as well. initely get to that part and address the comments that the Th e point of clarity I'd like from the member is: should minister had. I think there are some examples that the these resource developments go forward where we don't minister should be aware of that are red fl ags to the ap- have treaty? He seems to suggest that we need to come proach that's being taken right now. to reconciliation with First Nations and form a treaty [1135] before we move forward on these things. Treaties take a I wanted to get to the fi nal area of discussion around long period of time. the treaty process, and that's treaty implementation. I Th at's one of the reasons why we actually have looked think these are going to be a couple of examples where at non-treaty agreements and the various forms of the lack of…. Th ere's only so much focus that the gov- revenue-sharing that we have entered into. It helps, ac- ernment can have. Th e focus lately has been on non- tually, to build capacity. It is building blocks towards treaty agreements, which I acknowledge have brought forming those relationships where we can ultimately short-term benefi ts and economic benefi ts to First Na- come to treaty. For some First Nations, they aren't inter- tions. But acknowledging the government's own words ested in necessarily entering into treaty — at least, not at that treaties are the ultimate certainty, if they are taking this particular point. longer than normal, then I would expect the govern- We need to make sure that we see the benefi ts fl ow, the ment to look at avenues to ensure that they don't take shared opportunities across the province for all people. as long, because they are the ultimate certainty. In particular, we want to be able to see those benefi ts As far as the couple of examples we're going to talk fl ow so that they can change lives and create the kinds of about next on treaty implementation, I think they are opportunities that we want to be able to see happen for an example of how the resources and the focus need to our First Nations partners and for aboriginal and non- be increased by this government on the treaty, especially aboriginal alike across the province. with implementation. 1114 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

Th e fi rst example is the Maa-nulth treaty that was rati- through the Maa-nulth treaty. fi ed, as I'm sure the minister is aware, six years ago in the It's significant land, significant in the sense that B.C. Legislature. Now we see that the province, in a re- Toquaht Bay is part of their economic development cent news article in June, hasn't gotten around to regis- strategy, and that was part of the reason for negotiating tering most of the land that was promised in that treaty those land transfers. Now the land has been found to agreement. Only 15 percent has even been surveyed and be contaminated in an area which was key to ecotour- legally transferred. ism and cultural tourism opportunities that the Toquaht I wonder if the minister could advise if there's an up- were working on. It was key to their economic diversifi - date on that situation. I think you get to a certain point, cation and future. and then the interest seems to drop off the table on the Th e land was transferred from the province to the part of the provincial government. Th is is a treaty imple- Toquaht as part of the treaty, and it subsequently was mentation question specifi cally around the Maa-nulth found to have levels of contamination from a mining treaty. Why has it taken so long to get the land survey operation. Actually, the tailings from the mine historical- that was part of the agreement six years ago? ly — back in the '60s, I guess — were moved and dumped onto the beach there. Hon. J. Rustad: In the preamble, before we got on the I know other ministries have been involved in this. discussion on the Maa-nulth treaty, the member made a Th e concern has gone a lot further than just the Toquaht statement around some concerns that had been raised by Nation, which certainly has legitimate concerns for its the B.C. Treaty Commission. I want to clarify that in our economic future. discussions with the B.C. Treaty Commission, they've ex- Now it's tourism season, so there are some key eco- pressed support for the approach that we have been tak- nomic issues that are actually hot right now. If the minis- ing in terms of working with First Nations on non-treaty ter can possibly give me an update to tell us where we are agreements and other opportunities — in conjunction, on that land…. It was being tested. Th ere were a number of course, with the work we are doing around treaties. of tests being done by the Ministry of Environment, and [1140] I think Lands was involved too. We actually have heard from many First Nations across [1145] the province that they are very supportive of the ap- proach that we're taking. As I mentioned to the member Hon. J. Rustad: I happen to agree. Th is is the best earlier, it's critical in terms of relationships that we are portfolio, from my perspective. I feel very fortunate to trying to build with the First Nations, in terms of being have the opportunity to serve in this role within our able to move those things forward, that it actually has government. continuity with the same people. Particularly with regards to the Maa-nulth treaty and I agree with the member opposite in the sense that the Toquaht, when we worked through the treaty, we those people have busy schedules. I'd also like to suggest actually discussed issues around this, and its part of that it's a very good thing they have busy schedules, be- the treaty. When the Toquaht stepped forward and en- cause it's a sign that we have made tremendous progress tered with an opportunity they were looking at in terms and that there is a lot of interest from First Nations in be- of engaging, as you probably well know, everybody was ing able to move forward, both in treaty and non-treaty surprised at the issue that had come forward around con- opportunities that have presented themselves. tamination on the site. To the member's question around the Maa-nulth treaty, We are actually engaged with them on this to fi nd reso- I need to clarify one point. Th e Maa-nulth treaty actual- lution. We have worked with them in terms of an alter- ly came into eff ect April 1, 2011, which wasn't six years nate site for ecotourism, particularly a kayak launch site, ago. It was just a couple of years ago. With regards to that, to go forward. We've worked with them on a new picnic all the lands associated with that treaty have been trans- area. Th at work with the Toquaht is ongoing. ferred to the Maa-nulth. Th e Maa-nulth have full treaty rights and are exerting those rights today on those treaty D. Donaldson: I have a quick question that I hope will lands within the agreement that we had signed with the fi nish off the treaty part of the questioning so that we can Maa-nulth. go to non-treaty agreements aft er the lunch break. A comment on the continuity issue. Th e minister men- S. Fraser: Hello to the minister, and congratulations. tioned about how — this is something that he pointed to I think it's one of the best portfolios in this place. I'd like — having the same people at the table is a good thing in just to acknowledge your staff too. You've got an excel- building relationships, and I couldn't agree more. lent staff . It's good to be back asking a few questions here. My experience with the treaty process, which I was While we're on the Maa-nulth treaty, as the minister involved with before I became an MLA, is that there and his staff know, the Toquaht First Nation had quite was a revolving door of staff . My understanding from a setback with some of the lands that were transferred First Nations involved in the treaty process now is that Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1115

they fi nd, frequently, that staff on the provincial side are Motion approved. changed up. Th at creates an issue, because you have to re-educate every time. Th e committee rose at 11:52 a.m. If that's not the case…. I would be interested in know- ing what the minister is doing to address that issue. I know it's a tricky one, because obviously, people have PROCEEDINGS IN THE the ability to switch jobs. On the other hand, what is the BIRCH ROOM minister doing to ensure continuity, to incent continuity with the staffi ng at the table? Committee of Supply Th at's an aside. Th e main question I have to fi nish off this treaty topic area is something that I'm sure the min- ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY, ister is aware of. I wanted to get his take on what his min- INNOVATION AND CITIZENS' SERVICES istry is doing to address the issue and learn from the issue. Th at is that the Nisga'a, well within their rights, have gone Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section C); G. to a dispute resolution clause in their treaty regarding Hogg in the chair. the plans by a mining company to create a molybdenum mine in the Nisga'a settlement lands. Th e committee met at 10:09 a.m. Th at's well within their rights, and it's within the rights of the mining company to have this mine at an advanced On Vote 42: ministry operations, $65,290,000. stage of approval. Th e question is: do treaties that the gov- [1010] ernment has signed…? What does this say about real- The Chair: Do you have any opening comments, ly, in the future, increasing certainty for both the First Minister? Nations and the proponents of mineral resource extrac- tion activity? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Yes, I do. Th ank you. [1150] I need to introduce the staff present today. We're What is the government doing to achieve that goal if joined by Kelly Gleeson, assistant deputy minister, com- the treaty language does not do it? Th is is a living case munications and media relations division; by Jay Schlosar, of that, I believe. assistant deputy minister for strategic initiatives division; Mary Dila, executive director, marketing and communi- Th e Chair: Minister, and noting the hour. cations support services; and Denise Champion, who is executive director of corporate services. Hon. J. Rustad: I'll give as brief an answer as I can to I'm pleased to introduce the budget estimates for this, and then we'll go into the "noting the hour" issue. the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Th ank you to the member opposite for the question. Services. The ministry net budget for fiscal 2013-14 As you know, Nisga'a is a process that was gone through amounts to $534.438 million and supports the mandates over a number of years, and we are proud to have a treaty of all parts of the ministry. agreement with them. I think the thing to keep in mind Along with the rest of government, we are committed with treaties is that if you've done a treaty right, when dis- to meet the fi scal targets of this government. Th e ministry putes and issues come up, there are mechanisms that you role, of course, is to provide British Columbians with easy can engage with at a government-to-government level access to government services, to support leading-edge to be able to resolve those diff erences and those issues. technology and development opportunities and to pro- Th at is what has taken place in this case. We're work- vide infrastructure support to government ministries. ing very closely with the Nisga'a. We value very much our Now, on the technology innovation side, of course, relationship with the Nisga'a, and we're hoping to be able we support British Columbia as a recognized leader in to work through the process that is in place as part of the research. We continue to develop and grow innovative treaty, to move forward. research and technology resources and thereby create Th at also, actually, brings a certain amount of certain- more jobs for B.C. families. On the citizens' services side ty, as you know, through all treaties that we've done. It we engage in service delivery, technology and access to does bring that kind of certainty because it sets in place information. Th is includes Services B.C., the B.C. regis- the various conditions and opportunities that are avail- tries and B.C. Stats. able for people to be able to engage in resource oppor- On Shared Services B.C., more specifi cally, we deliv- tunities or in other types of activities that may happen er infrastructure and services the government needs to on treaty territories. operate, including buildings, technology, procurement With that, noting the hour, I move that the committee and supplies, and we manage the real estate portfolio, rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again. which remains a very important focus for the ministry. 1116 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

We're also responsible for the government communi- combined between the two of them. cations and public engagement work, and that's the staff that is here today. Th ey lead and coordinate external G. Heyman: I will ask three questions at once here, in communications, and the goal, of course, is to engage the interests of time. with and inform British Columbians about policies, pro- Has there been any specific change in the work of grams and services. the citizen engagement unit that is coincident with the It's a very broad scope for this ministry, and we look move of strategic initiatives from ministry operations forward to acting on opportunities that fall under this into GCPE? broad umbrella, and look forward to working with min- Th ere's already in GCPE a division called the strategic istry staff in the year ahead. We're happy to answer any planning and public engagement division, under John questions you may have about the budget estimates. I Paul Fraser. What's the diff erence, if any, between the look forward to the questions from the members. responsibilities of these two units? How is the citizen engagement role of the strategic initiatives group diff er- G. Heyman: First of all, I'd like to congratulate the ent from the public engagement aspect of the unit under minister on his appointment, his new ministry. As well, Mr. Fraser? he, like me, is new to this place and new to these issues, What reporting relationship is there, if any, between and I'm happy to see that, like me, we're still both trying these two divisions and the Offi ce of the Premier? to fi gure out when it's appropriate to stand and when we have to be seated. Hon. A. Wilkinson: The change in the citizen en- We have established an order with the ministry of how gagement functions is so that there's better alignment we're going to proceed through the questions. I've learn- between the two within the government communica- ed as I've been studying this ministry that it's complex, tions and public engagement role. Th is obviously raises varied and contains some issues and areas that are occa- the second question that the member raised, which is sionally under the microscope. the diff erence between the functions under ADM John As a result of that, we have a large number of ques- Paul Fraser…. tions but not a lot of time, due to the constrained nature His function is in corporate communications, which of this sitting, so I would just like to let you, Chair, and is, of course, more of a broadcast phenomenon — deal- through you, the minister, know that as I get to points ing with the population at large, getting out communi- throughout the day where I think it's time to move on, I cations throughout all media. Th e functions brought in will have, perhaps, very lengthy lists of questions that I'm from the strategic initiatives branch are dealing much simply going to read into the record and for which I will more with direct communications — with citizen en- request a written response as expeditiously as possible. gagement, with ongoing web contact, and so forth. Th e Having said that, let me begin with government com- two are thought to be complementary, so bringing them munications and public engagement. My fi rst question into the same house will permit better alignment be- is that the strategic initiatives program area which is re- tween the two functions. sponsible for the open government website and open data Th e third question from the member opposite — the had up to now been under ministry operations for several reporting relationship with the Premier's offi ce. Both of years, but it is now part of GCPE. My question is: what's these divisions, if I can call them that, under Mr. Schlosar the rationale for this move, and why was it deemed ap- and Mr. Fraser, now report to the deputy minister for propriate, previous to this move, for strategic initiatives government communications and public engagement, to be in ministry operations? Athana Mentzelopoulos. She reports to me as Minister of [1015] Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services. However, it's stating the obvious that government Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e shift of the strategic initia- communications is a service and a function that works tives offi ce within the ministry to the government com- throughout government to ensure that communications munications branch is part and parcel of the greater with the population of British Columbia are eff ective. citizen engagement in services being delivered through Like many other things this ministry does, it's a service the web. function. Once the strategic initiatives offi ce was underway, it was felt that there would be much better integration of G. Heyman: I'd just like to pursue that a little bit fur- the services and much better direct communication with ther. Would I understand the minister correctly — and I the public if it were recognized to be a communications will assume, if he doesn't refute this, that this is correct — role. Th erefore, the public engagement aspect of it was that other than his reporting relationship to the Premier thought to be more sensibly combined with the govern- through cabinet, or executive council, there is no other ment communications role. So we now have this com- line of communication between these two divisions and bined function of GCPE, and of course, the budget gets the Premier's offi ce? Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1117

[1020] a fashion that they will actually receive and understand I would also say that while the diff erentiation between and hopefully act upon. the two units may have been apparent to the minister's Th is reorganization was simply to recognize that the staff . Th ey were less apparent to me, unless what's being world is heading in that direction, and a communica- said is that they both involve engagement and outreach tions function, no matter what mode it is accomplished to the public. One is more direct, and one is more on line. by, is best organized within a communications deputy minister's mandate. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e member's asked me to refute [1025] the proposition that there are lines of communication to the Premier's offi ce. G. Heyman: In Mr. Fraser's operation is there any as- I suppose I can harken back to my own days as a dep- pect of the public engagement which involves data col- uty. Any and all deputies have relationships with the lection? If so, what happens to the data that is collected? Premier's offi ce in that they work through the Deputy Minister to the Premier and are occasionally called upon Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e organization we'll call the to visit with the Premier and to advise the Premier's of- Fraser organization for brevity and simplicity has been fi ce of what's going on. Th at's part and parcel of any dep- active in interactive work on the B.C. jobs plan. Th ere uty minister's function, and of course, that applies to this are a number of interesting bits of information that I can ministry like any other. relate on that. Th is deals with interactive work on pro- Secondly, the diff erentiation between the two func- spective areas of employment, skills development and tions — what I'll call Mr. Fraser's operations of the dir- how skills development should be built upon. ect broadcast communications, if I can call it that, and For example, there were 286,000 viewers of the bcjob- the more on-line functions under Mr. Schlosar. It turns splan.ca site, 717,500 page views and 14,900 downloads. out, of course, that there are a number of aspects to this. Of course, there were some interactive phenomena there Th ere's the service function within government that as well — 40,448 referrals from that website to the work- Mr. Schlosar's office in strategic initiatives performs, bc.ca website for specifi c job search and career tools. which is to assist all ministries to optimize their on- Th ere were linkages to other sites as well. line communication with the general public. Of course, Th ere were also what would be colloquially called con- there are many, many functions in government that are versations that were elicited on that website that provid- increasingly going on line. So they are part and parcel of ed for an ongoing monitored conversation between the that and their service function throughout government. participants to direct them toward specifi c job tools or Secondly, they do participate in direct contact with opportunities and to talk more generally about skills de- the government, especially within the rubric of public velopment in the province of British Columbia. engagement. Th irdly, they provide technical back-offi ce Th is was an extensive exchange that went on. Th e met- functions throughout government, and that, of course, rics I've summarized here were developed from that ex- is a logical extension of what my ministry does more change, but no database was developed. It was simply generally. data collection so that it could be measured to provide It's just been thought that the reporting lines might be these kinds of statistics. more eff ective if Mr. Schlosar's function was transferred over to report to Deputy Minister Mentzelopoulos, rather G. Heyman: In the interest of brevity, I would just…. than reporting to Deputy Minister Jacobson. I'm not sure if the minister meant that to be the one and Of course, this analysis applies in large part to the trad- only example of data being collected or just an example. itional communications function under Mr. Fraser as I would ask that the ministry provide me with an item- well in that they also perform a service function through- ized list of any other instances where data was collected, out government, assisting all ministries with the neces- how the data was utilized, to whom it was provided with- sary communications — whether it's in Forestry about in government and for what purpose and, if this was the forest fi res or Health about immunization. only example, to just give me the response for this par- Th ey, obviously, are involved in what I'll call the broad- ticular example with respect to the jobs plan. cast, direct communication with the public. Th ey would [1030] have a much-reduced function in terms of technical I'd now like move on to the issue of open government. back offi ce, but of course, there are issues related to the Mr. Schlosar recently gave a presentation to the Institute technical aspects of modern communication which they of Public Administration of Canada, and in the presenta- would be responsible for. tion he cited the government's routine release of expense Th e two elements of this function under, respectively, information as an example of government's openness and Mr. Schlosar and Mr. Fraser are in many ways comple- embrace of open data, despite the fact that all that is ac- mentary and increasingly should be so, so that citizens tually released is a monthly total for ministers. get the optimal communication at the optimal time in Since last October the Alberta government has been 1118 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

making available comprehensive travel, accommodation, this year there were 10,000 redacted documents posted meals and hospitality expenses, complete with informa- on the open government website. Th ose were the sev- tion on each event, and this applies not just to cabinet but ered documents that were reviewed by the Dyble group also to political staff as well as all senior offi cials who are in producing its report. appointed by order-in-council in Alberta. Th ose documents went through the normal course sev- My question is: is the B.C. government contemplating erance process under the statutory and regulatory frame- following Alberta's lead? If there are any discussions to work and were severed and redacted by professional staff this end or any plans to do that, what is the time frame? in the normal course. Th ey put the full resources of that working group available to that task so that it could be Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e disclosure on websites, for done in timely fashion, because it was a large task. It was the large part, of the activities of elected offi cials is an done in the completely normal course by the professional evolving story. I think we're all aware that the Obama civil service staff who do this for a living. administration decided to post the President's daily calendar on the White House website, and Alberta has G. Heyman: Th e 2012-13 budget for strategic initia- been engaging, along with some other jurisdictions, in tives was $16.826 million. In the February pre-election the publication of expenses in a more detailed way. I re- budget the amount set aside for this unit was also about member my own time when I was the Intergovernmental $17 million, almost twice the amount in the current Relations deputy minister. Alberta in 2002 was publish- budget. ing the Premier's travel expenses in a summary form. My question is: what is the reason for the reduction, This is an evolving story throughout the English- and what specifi cally is being removed from the service speaking democracies. It always has to be balanced, of plan that would have been funded by the money other- course, with the productivity of disclosing things. I don't wise removed? think we want to get into parking receipts. Also, the se- curity concerns. We know that it's all well and good for Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e budget information that I the President of the United States to disclose his daily cal- have is of $16.676 million, and the amount transferred, endar, because he's surrounded at all times by a heavily or at least allocated with Mr. Schlosar, was $9.992 mil- armed entourage of Secret Service people. Security has lion — the diff erence being $6.26 million in a Knowledge already been anticipated. Network grant and $424,000 for four FTEs who remained Th ere has been advice received from the sheriff ser- in their traditional or prior positions with the other part vices offi ce here in British Columbia about the propriety of the ministry because their roles were more technically of disclosing information, and that is taken into account related, and they were thought to be better placed with in the degree of disclosure. But this is an evolving story, their original working groups. and I don't think we can expect the current degree of dis- closure to remain static. It will continue to evolve. G. Heyman: I have some questions for the minister with respect to citizen engagement work done over the G. Heyman: I thank the minister for the response. past year, but we have not a lot of time today, particularly I simply note that today Commissioner Denham has because, I assume, we'll be adjourning at fi ve o'clock to issued a report that is, in fact, critical about the limited move into the House. So there are a number of questions nature of disclosure that the government currently pro- I'm going to read that I'd appreciate a written response to vides of expenses, calendars, contracts of both ministers in some reasonable time frame. and deputy ministers. I assume the minister will have How many contracts were awarded for public consul- some discussions with the commissioner about this, and I tation and/or citizen engagement in the past year? To would ask that we be kept apprised of the nature of those which companies or individuals were they awarded? How discussions and plans as they unfold. many were direct awards and for how much per contract? Let me move on to a question about freedom of infor- Additionally, does the citizen engagement group do mation. Th e 10,000-plus documents that were collected electronic town halls? Is it responsible for the B.C. b-sides for the Dyble investigation were posted on the Open website, which provides good-news stories about the gov- Information website in June. ernment? If the answer to this is yes, how many staff are [1035] devoted to maintaining this website? My question is: was the severing of those documents Is it this unit that does the jobs plan website, or is that done under the freedom-of-information act by profes- in the Jobs Ministry? Is it this unit that is responsible for sional freedom-of-information analysts? If not, who the Premier's Facebook page, or is that maintained from oversaw the severing, and what criteria were provided the Premier's offi ce? What other work, if any, does this to that person under which they conducted the severing? unit do on behalf of the Offi ce of the Premier? [1040] Hon. A. Wilkinson: As the member notes, in June of Finally, of the $9.992 million budget, how much is Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1119

spent on the citizen engagement aspect of the ministry? Education and so forth. I hope that clarifi es that answer. A question for now: is the government's polling budget In terms of last year's budget and the $11.09 million accounted for under strategic initiatives? drawn from contingency to provide for publication of the B.C. jobs plan and the items that I referred to earlier in Hon. A. Wilkinson: Polling is not part of Mr. Schlosar's terms of the heavy engagement with that program, that strategic initiatives offi ce. Any budget allocation for it is was a cross-government initiative, and so it wasn't allo- in the $16.3 million blue book fund provided for the cated within a particular ministry prospectively in the main advertising budget. 2012-2013 budget. It was drawn from contingencies dur- I should just make it clear that that $16.3 million ing that fi scal year and appears, of course, in the public budget is for the previous fi scal year, not for the upcom- accounts for last year. ing fi scal year — if I understand that correctly. G. Heyman: I fi nd the response interesting. I would G. Heyman: Pardon my unfamiliarity with some as- have thought that the jobs plan would have been the re- pects of these budget envelopes, but where would this sponsibility of the Jobs Ministry. One could argue that main advertising budget reside? Is it under the respon- virtually any initiative is a cross-government initiative. sibility of the minister at all? But you have a Jobs Ministry. You have a jobs plan. I would have thought there would have been money in the Hon. A. Wilkinson: On page 160 of the estimates blue budget to advertise the jobs plan within that ministry, but book there is the estimates item for 2013-14 of $26.155 apparently the government had a diff erent idea. million, which includes reference to research, planning, I'm going to ask a series of questions now. How many coordination and delivery of communications programs. FTEs from GCPE were involved in the jobs plan cam- I'm advised that within that sum there's an allocation paign, and how many of these staff are or were in regular under the famous STOB 67 of $8.538 million. Th at in- contact with the Jobs Ministry? How many focus groups cludes the sums applicable over a number of ministries took place for the jobs plan campaign? Were the results for the issues the member has asked about. from the focus groups shared with the B.C. Liberal Party before the election campaign? G. Heyman: In that case, I'd ask three questions, which Can the minister please provide in writing the follow- I would appreciate receiving a written response to at ing information on focus groups: what questions were some convenient time, but not too far in the distant fu- asked of the participants, and in what locations were the ture. How much was spent on polling in 2012-13 from focus groups? As I said, that information could be pro- this ministry compared to the previous year? What poll- vided later. And who signed off the Treasury Board sub- ing, if any, was done for the Offi ce of the Premier? And mission for jobs plan spending? how much is budgeted for…? Well, you've told me how much is budgeted for this year. Hon. A. Wilkinson: If I'm to understand, those are [1045] written responses you're seeking. I'm not sure I have all Th e information and publications expenditure spread- of that information available at my fi ngertips. sheet that was released with the public accounts this week states that the B.C. jobs plan public information G. Heyman: I specified particularly that the ques- campaign and research spend was funded from govern- tions about the participants and the location of the ment contingencies and puts the $11-million-plus budget focus groups could be in writing, within a reasonable under GCPE instead of the Jobs Ministry. The same amount of time. Given the other staff who are waiting spreadsheet indicates that individual ministries, includ- to help with questions in their areas of responsibility, if ing the Jobs Ministry, have advertising spends attributed there are any answers that can be given now, I'd appre- to specifi c ministries. ciate them. Regardless, a full answer in writing, at some Why was advertising money held in contingencies be- point, for those questions not answered today would be fore the election and, in the case of the $11 million jobs appreciated. plan ad campaign, put into government communications [1050] and public engagement in the June budget? What's the rationale for moving the jobs plan ad spending out of the Hon. A. Wilkinson: I apologize for being unclear last Jobs Ministry's own budget? time as to how much of an oral response you wanted. I've nailed a few things from staff . Th e fi rst item is that the Hon. A. Wilkinson: Just to clarify my previous an- jobs plan campaign was a cross-government initiative, swer, the $8.538 million budget for advertising in this as it did involve issues such as natural gas, skills training, coming fi scal, 2013-14, consists of $3.537 million within advanced education and many other sectors. my own ministry, and the remainder is allocated across Th e staff complement allocated to it is not clear right other ministries such as Finance, Education, Advanced now because they do work on multiple tasks. But we'll 1120 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

provide you, to our best knowledge, with an FTE count, the decision was made to shift the focus of the ad cam- if we can call it that, of perhaps the annual or hourly paign to British Columbia, and who made this decision? count of the people in the GCPE and how much time they Did it go to Treasury Board? Did it go somewhere else? spend on it. We don't have that available at this time, but Who made it? How much was spent domestically and we can provide that to you. how much on international advertising in the jobs cam- Finally, there were 31 focus groups involved. In July paign? What was the total amount of money for adver- 2012 there were eight focus groups conducted across B.C. tising that was taken from the contingencies budget in — Vancouver, Coquitlam, Prince George and Kamloops. 2012-13? Is all of that spending now under GCPE? Th ey explored the types of information the public would like to receive from the provincial government regarding Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that I'm going to the economy. provide this answer in reverse, essentially. Th ere is no There were, further, three public focus groups in budget in this fi scal year for communication of the B.C. Vancouver in September of 2012 related to perceived jobs plan at this stage. provincial government actions related to the economy Th e second point is that the access to contingencies and whether the intended advertising campaign was into last year was all disclosed in the public accounts two clear in its content. days ago. In fact, that was access-to-contingency funding. Ten focus groups were conducted in British Columbia In terms of the international content, there was expos- in October 2012 in Vancouver, Kamloops, Coquitlam ure in some publications such as the Wall Street Journal and Prince George, with the objectives being to deter- and the Economist obviously drawing international atten- mine the eff ectiveness of the campaign at the household tion to the opportunities in British Columbia which level as well as to hear public priorities with respect to would lead to employment. Th ere was also a communi- the campaign. cations presence at border crossings and at the Vancouver In December 2012 two further focus groups were Airport, which is something that I can testify is done ex- conducted in Coquitlam to once again determine if the tensively by law fi rms as they seek to attract the atten- media profi le of the campaign was the subject of any tion of travellers. confusion or misunderstanding or misinterpretation — Th ere was a doubling of the international presence in basically, trial runs. key markets for British Columbia through internation- And in January of 2013 eight focus groups were con- al offi ces and the like. We promoted our Asia-Pacifi c ducted in Vancouver, Kamloops, Prince George and Business Centre in Vancouver as a way of attracting in- Coquitlam, the objective being to gauge impressions of vestment. diff erent approaches to presenting similar information to The primary focus, yes, was domestic. But that, of see which were the most eff ective in communicating the course, focuses on growth of domestic demand and jobs plan priorities to the population of British Columbia. consumer confidence, which is obviously critical for economic success. Th ere also was an international com- G. Heyman: I'll be happy to receive any additional re- ponent in terms of attracting foreign direct investment. maining response to the questions in writing at a future date, including perhaps the specifi c questions. I'm sure G. Heyman: Well, I appreciate the answer, but I didn't those can be provided. I would add to the questions that claim that there was no international component whatso- I asked with respect to this: were the results of the focus ever. I did specifi cally ask why the past Jobs Minister had groups shared with any third party whatsoever? What claimed that the focus would be international in nature languages, if any other than English, were these focus and the current Jobs Minister said that the focus was ac- groups conducted in? And specifi cally which ones? tually domestic in nature. My question specifi cally was: I'd now like to move on to another aspect. Th e previ- why was that change in mandate made, and who made it? ous Jobs Minister, , stated that the intent of the Also — and I'm quite happy to have this in writing at campaign, obviously, was to attract jobs and investment some point: how much specifi cally was spent domestic- to B.C. and told the House in the previous parliament ally and how much specifi cally was spent internationally? that advertising dollars would be taken out of contin- [1100] gency, with the majority of the jobs plan advertising cam- If it was appropriate to have jobs plan advertising in paign focused on international, not domestic, markets. GCPE because it was a cross-government initiative in Th e current Jobs Minister said the other day in esti- the last year, why is it not appropriate that it be in GCPE mates — Tuesday, specifi cally: "Th e primary focus of the this year? Why was that decision made? Th at question I campaign was actually domestic." Th en she added: "I'm would be happy to take an answer on now. advised that the focus of the campaign shift ed to look at the domestic market." Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e international-domestic bal- [1055] ance in this, of course, depended on the state of markets My questions are: can the minister tell the House when and what was available in terms of advertising opportun- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1121

ities and eff ectiveness. fact, I'd prefer that. Secondly, in terms of the access to contingencies, that's What campaigns is the agency of record for the min- because it was a governmentwide initiative involving a istry currently under contract to provide? Can the min- wide number of ministries. So it did not reside in the ister also provide in writing, at some point, how the 2012-13 blue book estimates for this ministry, and it was number of staff breaks down in terms of order-in-council brought in as part of contingencies on a government- appointments and regular employees? How many indi- wide basis. viduals are on contract to the ministry to provide com- Lastly, I'm sorry. I think the answer escapes me, as munications and media relation services? I'm happy to to what your question was. But there is no allocation of receive that in writing. jobs plan advertising within my ministry at this point in Let me move on, however, to one particular contract. this fi scal year. In June the Times Colonist reported that on top of the staff employed for media relations and communications G. Heyman: Well, I don't want to fl og a dead horse, but work in GCPE, the government paid $24,000 to former the question was actually: why was it appropriate last year B.C. Liberal caucus communications director Judy Kirk. and not this year? With respect, some people, lacking fur- At the time, the government spokesperson said that there ther clarifi cation of this question, might just presume that was no employee of GCPE who could do the work. Th e last year was an election year, this coming year is not an minister himself said that staff was too busy, because the election year, and there was an interesting parallel track job was urgent. between government jobs plan advertising and much Can the minister tell the House who would have other advertising that we saw from the Liberal Party. signed off on that contract and indicate the process by I have one more question that I'd like to receive a re- which it was determined that the need was urgent and sponse from in writing — not today, in the interests of that there wasn't in-house capacity to provide media time. How many contractors are used by GCPE, and what training? Have there been any other similar contracts let services are they contracted to provide? Have any of these since the election? contractors also done work for the Liberal Party? If that I'd also note that we learned in Public Accounts this is the case, what measures were taken by the ministry to week that Ms. Kirk's company was paid over $1.8 million ensure that there was no overlap or mixing whatsoever in contracts in the past year. Could the minister tell the of the work? House what those contracts were for and whether they were tendered or awarded directly? I would take that an- [J. Th ornthwaite in the chair.] swer in writing. [1110] I'd now like to move into the communications and media relations part of GCPE. What is the total number Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out there has been one of staff in this area, and what is the ministry's hiring pro- other contract let for similar work since the election. cess for this unit? For example, what kind of expertise Th at's for emergency management work in light of nat- and professional experience are sought and required to ural events going on in various places on our continent. fi ll these positions? In terms of who signed off on the Judy Kirk contract, [1105] it is Denise Champion, who's sitting next to me and has been a government employee for 35 years now. Th e ur- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e total FTE count in GCPE is gency, I think, was clearly because there was a new cohort now 201, which is a reduction of 121 FTEs from the 2001 of ministers, including me, who required some degree of count. Of those 201, 150 are involved in media monitor- orientation to the role of communications in light of new ing, media relations, issues management and communi- government responsibilities. cations staff within ministries. Th ey are, of course, widely In terms of internal capacity, the realignment of min- dispersed across government. istries occurring meant that communications directors Th e member asked about the hiring process. Th e pro- were being allocated to ministries with new ministers cess is an open recruitment process whereby external and required a great deal of orientation and prepara- applicants submit a resumé and are considered for open- tion of materials to instruct and bring up to speed their ings, as they become available, based on their education, new ministers. While in quieter times there may have experience and, where appropriate, the results of a writ- been the capacity to do it in-house, at the time it was ten test. Th is is a skills- and qualifi cation-based open considered to be an urgency that people like me get up hiring process. to speed so that we could communicate eff ectively with the media. G. Heyman: My apologies to the minister and the minister's staff . I have one more question on advertis- G. Heyman: Th e large number of staff who are com- ing, which I'm happy to receive a written response to. In munications specialists in the ministry. Th ere is a deemed 1122 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

urgency. Contracts are let for outside assistance because Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm happy to advise that the value there's a need to meet the deemed urgency around com- of the contract is well below the $25,000 threshold for munications. tendering and that the procurement rules have been fol- I'd like to contextualize this a little bit. We're in a per- lowed completely. Certainly, if there were any extension iod where we're starting core review 2. Th e government's or if the contract somehow was thought to be in need of looking to cut $30 million from its budget. I'm assuming expansion to go beyond $25,000, it would be tendered. that the minister's ministry is being asked to fi nd some areas of belt-tightening. G. Heyman: Can the minister please inform me about If communications help to new ministers on an out- any plans to have communications directors from min- side contract is not deemed part of an area that is open istries moved out of government communications and for belt-tightening, what part, if any, of government com- public engagement to be located directly in ministers' munications and public engagement, in particular the offi ces? communications and media relations division, might be subject to core review? Or is it safe? Hon. A. Wilkinson: I understand that the role of the communications director is thought to be better imple- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e terms of reference for the mented by supporting ministers on government issues. core review process are in evolution. I will look forward Th e ministers need close interaction with the communi- to them with great interest to determine whether my own cations directors, and they're called upon to represent ministry budget will face some scrutiny from the core re- government on a wide range of issues. Th e issues arise, view team and the process they've embarked upon. of course, in their portfolios, sometimes shared with an- I'm not in a position to answer the question from the other ministry, and may have regional impacts in the member at this point, but I expect that will come clear province. in the coming months. [1120] Th e communications directors have always provid- G. Heyman: I'm sorry to jump around. I'm going back. ed communications advice on a variety of government I want to make clear that a question that I asked earlier…. issues. Certainly, I remember in my era as a deputy I think I said if an answer was available now, I would re- they were located up at the Jack Davis Building at 1810 ceive it now, but no answer was forthcoming. I want to Blanshard Street, which was a very inconvenient place in clarify that I am expecting a written answer. terms of interaction with ministers. [1115] Nowadays, the idea is to formalize the job description Th at was the answer to the question about whether to make it crystal clear. Th e communications directors any of the contractors used by GCPE — particularly with continue to be responsible for government work and respect to the jobs campaign but in any other instance do not participate in any way in constituency or parti- as well — were also contracted by the Liberal Party of san issues. British Columbia and, if so, whether and what measures Th e co-location of the communications directors with were in place to ensure that there was no intermingling ministerial offi ces is proving to ensure much more timely of the work and no confl ict of interest. and informal interaction to ensure that communications We've learned recently that Steve Housser, who was priorities are dealt with promptly, rather than wonder- an unsuccessful Liberal candidate in the Cowichan ing if someone is about and tracking them down at a re- Valley and a former journalist, is now working in GCPE mote location or by telephone, which has proven, over as a manager in strategic planning and events. Can the the years, to be very ineffi cient. minister please outline what his duties and terms of em- Th ey continue to be accountable to this ministry, to ployment are? I'd note that the previous person in this GCPE. All of the GCPE staff , including those communi- position, or a similar position, was paid $85,000 a year. cations directors, receive clear instructions on the stan- dards of conduct and are required to complete the oath Hon. A. Wilkinson: Mr. Housser, I am advised, is a of employment, such that they are acting in the public public relations communications professional with dec- interest as public servants. ades of experience. He is currently providing project management and coordination to the corporate director G. Heyman: As the Dyble report pointed out, there of events management. It's a short-term contract which certainly was documentation about the blurring of lines runs to the end of August. between government caucus and the party in the past that was related to work done in communications and G. Heyman: Does the ministry expect to extend this by a former communications director. contract, reissue this contract, tender this contract or re- Th e minister has stated in the House that all of the instate the position that once existed before this contract recommendations in the Dyble report were accepted and was tendered, or not awarded? have been implemented. I would ask the minister to pro- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1123 vide me and the opposition with the specifi c directives Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm advised that all of the trans- that were given to communications directors to ensure lation services that the member has inquired about were that in their future activity the recommendations of the government-related, and that the ambit of that work is Dyble report will be fully adhered to. to take publicly issued material — whether it's news re- On a related issue, I would like to ask the minister leases or otherwise — and put it into languages which are about the hiring of former Liberal caucus research dir- in common use throughout British Columbia. ector Blair Phelps to the role of communications direc- tor for the Ministry of Multiculturalism. My colleague G. Heyman: In that case, I would ask the minister to the member for Surrey-Whalley raised these questions make any written record of that review available to us. in the estimates in that ministry and was directed to ask My fi nal question. Th e Dyble report noted…. I'm sure them here. the minister will say that the Liberal Party repaid sal- Mr. Phelps played a direct role in the quick-win ethnic ary and other compensation that he received that was outreach scheme, and that fact is contained in the gov- deemed by the Dyble report to be inappropriate activ- ernment's Dyble report. Th is was a scheme run in part by ity for a government employee. Th e Dyble report clearly former GCPE director of communications Brian Bonney. pointed out that Mr. Bonney was exploiting public re- Does the minister have a concern, in terms of the gov- sources for over a year. Th ose activities were complete- ernment's record on blurring of the lines between gov- ly unnoticed by his two superiors, ADM Kelly Gleeson ernment and party business, as evidenced in the Dyble and Deputy Minister Mentzelopoulos. Th ey were either report, when you've now replaced one key player in the ignored or condoned, but in any event, they weren't quick-win scandal with another key player in the quick- stopped. win scandal? If you do have any concern, can you enlight- Given that the minister and the government has said en us about what you've done to address that concern? that they accept all the recommendations of the Dyble report and that those have been implemented, can the Hon. A. Wilkinson: Having canvassed this in esti- minister tell us what new accountability measures are in mates with the Deputy Premier for a period of almost place? What sort of review of work undertaken is in place four hours, I'm prepared to answer questions direct- to ensure that this kind of activity is not repeated in the ly within the remit of this ministry, but beyond that, I wake of the Dyble report and the quick-win scandals? have to simply refer you to the answers from the Deputy Premier in earlier estimates. Hon. A. Wilkinson: To address this particular query, Mr. Phelps was hired based on his ability to carry out the deputy minister of GCPE has met with the communi- a senior communications role, and he, of course, has cation directors to address the fi ndings and has directed signed the oath required of provincial employees and them to do so with their respective staff . Th e deputy min- agreed to follow the code of conduct. He is expected to ister issued a communiqué directive to all staff that they live up to those expectations to the letter. Th at, of course, review the commitments established in the standards of is in keeping with the fact that the government has ac- conduct and the public service oath, which all staff are cepted the six recommendations from the Dyble report. subject to, and on the limited and only appropriate use of government e-mail and personal computers. G. Heyman: Th is is my fi nal question for government Th e staff have also been directed to take the Public communications and public engagement. It's actually my Service Agency–provided courses on privacy and fi nal two questions. It has to do with translation services information-sharing. To the date of this note in April, in government communications and public engagement. 94 percent of all GCPE staff had attended a privacy and As part of the Dyble investigation, the ADM of com- awareness training session. Th e deputy minister also met munications and media relations, Kelly Gleeson, was with GCPE staff complements in each respective com- interviewed about the possible partisan use of the munications unit to review the report from the Dyble government's translation resources. Former Citizens' committee and to reinforce the requirements of the stan- Services deputy Kim Henderson sent a March 5 state- dard of conduct and address any questions the staff may ment to other members of the Dyble panel stating that have had. "resources for translation services were increased in the spring of 2012" and that "we will need to look at billing to G. Heyman: I would note that I also asked the minis- ensure all the work completed was government-related." ter whether, in addition to what measures were taken to [1125] ensure that staff were aware of the requirements, there Can the minister tell us what steps were taken to re- were some measures implemented to increase oversight view these government billings and what the review of staff , because clearly, this inappropriate behaviour es- found in terms of any inappropriate use of GCPE's trans- caped the notice of both the deputy and an ADM. lation services? [1130] 1124 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm advised that there are now instructions? bilateral meetings with each and every member of the Finally, what changes, if any, have been made in how GCPE staff every two weeks — those meetings are information access operations staff process FOI requests with the deputy minister and the assistant deputy min- to ensure that personal e-mails are captured? ister — and that there are weekly meetings with the communications directors. Th ere is and has been clear Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e use of personal e-mail. It communication of the requirements of the Dyble report turns out that the very able ADM responsible for FOI during those meetings. has conducted a number of seminars for the political staff , and the content of that presentation is available and can G. Heyman: I'd like to thank the minister and thank be delivered to the member. the staff of GCPE. I'm about to move on to Shared On the second issue, the freedom-of-information Services B.C., in particular the information access oper- process is, of course, on a statutory basis, not limited to ations. I probably have about enough questions to carry what might go into the government e-mail system. But us to the lunch break and slightly beyond. I'm planning to quote a learned source within the ministry: "It doesn't on about 45 minutes. matter if you write it on your shoe; it's required to be dis- My fi rst question has to do with use of…. closed when the FOI request comes around." So perhaps we should all check our shoes. Th e Chair: Member, could we just break for a bit so that they can change staff if they need? G. Heyman: Or at least photocopy the soles of them. Th is may be partially covered by your last answer. Th e G. Heyman: Certainly. commissioner has spoken of a duty to document, and she referred specifi cally to a marked increase in the number Th e Chair: Th e committee will recess — three minutes. of FOI requesters who were being told by the govern- ment that no documents existed. Th ere was no record. Th e committee recessed from 11:33 a.m. to 11:34 a.m. Now, this is in part covered by your previous answer. Th e commissioner actually asked for a meeting with your [J. Th ornthwaite in the chair.] predecessor. Can the minister tell me if he has met with the Hon. A. Wilkinson: I've been directed by one of the Information Commissioner on implementing a duty for staff to clarify that those bilateral meetings are between public servants to document their work and decisions in the 18 communications directors and the ADM and the her continued investigation into the increase in "no rec- deputy, not between all 201 staff members on a bilat- ord" responses that has occurred under this government eral basis. and/or regarding her investigation into the abuse of per- [1135] sonal e-mail accounts? [1140] G. Heyman: I'd like to now move to the issue of the I'd just like to point out that the duty to document re- use of personal e-mail accounts by cabinet ministers fers not to disclosing any and all records that may exist and staff . Both the quick-win scheme and the Burnaby — whether they're government e-mail, personal e-mail or Hospital committee scandal have shown that the govern- on the soles of our shoes — but to keeping some sort of ment has eff ectively…. record of discussions and decision-making. Th e Information Commissioner would support this and has commented on it — that the use of personal e- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is is an interesting, evolving mails actually skirts the freedom-of-information laws for area. It turns out that, fortuitously, I have had conversa- communicating about government business and that in tions with the Information and Privacy Commissioner fact, when it's communication about government busi- on this very issue, and in those conversations, we have ness, it must be accessible. Th e commissioner, Elizabeth recognized that the "no records" scenario is actually part Denham, felt compelled to publish a guide confi rming of a much wider policy-based issue about data manage- this that in fact personal e-mails are subject to informa- ment in government. tion requests under the FOI Act. Th e member may not be aware of this. I only learned I'd like to ask the minister: in response to both the this recently. Th ere is a document disposal act — which issues that gave rise to the discovery that private e-mails dates from, I think, 1935 — that deals with the archiving or personal e-mail accounts were being used for govern- function of government, given the amount of documen- ment business and the commissioner's instructions, have tation produced by government. Of course, in the last 25 any operational directives been given to political staff years it has exploded with the use of electronic media and and to cabinet ministers regarding the use of personal electronic recording systems. e-mail? If so, what form did this take, and what were the We have embarked upon a policy-based discussion on Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1125

this issue with the Offi ce of the Information and Privacy verbal instructions on how to manage "politically sensi- Commissioner so that we can come up with a more co- tive requests from the media and the opposition" and that gent and workable approach to management of infor- staff were also given "direct orders to specifi cally not cre- mation and data in government generally, including the ate any records during the processing of these politically archiving function. Of course, that would have ramifi ca- sensitive requests." tions for the freedom-of-information functions as well. "The fact that requests from the media and politic- al parties continue to be plagued by delay is especially G. Heyman: Just to be clear, would these ongoing dis- troubling," says the Information Commissioner in her cussions also address the duty-to-document issue? 2010 report on FOI timeliness. I would ask whether the Information Commissioner Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th at is part of the content of the has been in direct contact with the minister about these engagement we're having with the Privacy Commissioner. charges. Or has he, on his own, launched any kind of re- We both acknowledge that it's a phenomenon that is hap- view or investigation or taken any steps whatsoever to in- pening in governments worldwide and that there are a vestigate these serious and troubling allegations and act variety of potential responses, some of which may not on them if he deems them worthy of action? prove to be workable. We will, of course, look to international experience Hon. A. Wilkinson: This letter that came to the to determine what may be the best practice in this area, attention of the member and others, including the given that it has not been a phenomenon in any North Privacy Commissioner, was not signed. The Privacy American legislature to date. But it is an evolving issue Commissioner has a practice of not substantively delv- around the world. We expect that we will be learn- ing into unsigned, anonymous complaints. ing from that and, as I say, working with the Privacy Nonetheless, the Privacy Commissioner has, over Commissioner to come up with something that is ro- the past six months, reviewed 88 of the fi les within the bust and workable, rather than a short-term knee-jerk freedom-of-information process comprehensively and response. came to the conclusion that each and every one of them was thoroughly and comprehensively managed in com- G. Heyman: Just to close on this issue, I would ask pliance with the statute and the regulations. Th is audit for confirmation that these discussions also encom- process is ongoing. pass — unless the minister believes these have been fully [1150] addressed — the issue of use of personal e-mails and In terms of timeliness, we have on the public record whether the Information Commissioner believes that from the service plan report that last fi scal year there the measures taken are adequate. Finally, if the minister was 87 percent compliance with statutory freedom-of- can keep me apprised of the nature of the discussions on- information response times. Th ere has been adjustment going to the extent possible. of that over the years. With the centralized processing of freedom-of-information requests — and in order to do Hon. A. Wilkinson: I think that would be a desir- it in this thorough, comprehensive fashion, in complete able approach, given that this is obviously a long-term compliance with the legislation — there has been a stan- phenomenon and we have duties, on both sides of the dardized and rigorous process. House, to address this issue. So I would expect to satisfy In keeping with the conclusions of the Privacy the member opposite's concern with ongoing contact on Commissioner, there has been no political interference. this very issue. Th e source or substance of this anonymous complaint [1145] remains a mystery.

G. Heyman: I'll move on to a concern that's specifi c G. Heyman: I have one more question in this area. I to freedom of information. Th e opposition caucus was note that the statistics did change aft er the commission- copied on a letter from a freedom-of-information ana- er's initial report, but the Information Commissioner in lyst expressing concerns about "a signifi cant degree of March of this year reported that there was a vast increase interference, manipulation and issues management that in the number of "no response" freedom-of-information pervades the entire FOI process to serve what appears requests and that this was particularly dramatic in the to be a political agenda." Th e letter was addressed to the Offi ce of the Premier. Information Commissioner. I know that the minister was She said, "Th e dramatic increase in the Offi ce of the also copied on the letter, so I'm sure he's aware of it, but Premier's percentage last year, from 30 percent to 45 per- I haven't heard him address the issues raised in the letter. cent, was the single biggest cause of the increase" in "no I wanted to give the minister a chance to put his record" responses. thoughts about the issues raised in this letter on the rec- My question to the minister is: what direction, if ord. Th e analyst talks about FOI staff having been given any, has been provided to the Offi ce of the Premier to 1126 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013

assist them in dealing with this dramatic increase in approach to this thing in terms of the appropriate meth- no response that was identified by the Information ods with which government accumulates and records Commissioner? information — stores, retains, provides access to it. We are in the process of working that up with the Privacy Hon. A. Wilkinson: I will be brief. When overlap- Commissioner. ping, duplicative "no record" responses are accounted I'm instructed of the appropriate input to the record for across ministries, it turns out that — and this is in at this point. Hon. Chair, I move that this committee rise keeping with recommendation of the commissioner — and report progress and ask leave to sit again. we've seen only a 3 percent increase in the "no record" responses over the last four years. Th at's since 2009-10. Motion approved. More specifi cally, the Premier's offi ce is aware of this issue. And as I said earlier, there will be an overall policy Th e committee rose at 11:53 a.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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