Second Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Wednesday, May 28, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 3

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Second Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East –Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside- Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna– ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North Coast...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Island ...... Claire Trevena Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Parksville-Qualicum ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Peace River North ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River South ...... Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Penticton...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Port Coquitlam ...... McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond-Steveston ...... Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich South ...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Shuswap ...... Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Skeena ...... Robin Austin Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Newton ...... Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Whalley...... Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fairview ...... Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–False Creek ...... Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kensington ...... Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–West End ...... Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 28, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Tributes ...... 4313 Hugh Curtis Hon. M. de Jong G. Holman

Introductions by Members ...... 4313

Ministerial Statements ...... 4316 100th anniversary of Komagata Maru incident Hon. A. Virk H. Bains

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 4317 B.C. Jade Day R. Lee Support services for immigrants J. Shin Sparkling Hill Resort E. Foster Bayview Community School centennial D. Eby Election in Ukraine Moira Stilwell 100th anniversary of Komagata Maru incident R. Chouhan

Oral Questions ...... 4319 Government role in teachers labour dispute J. Horgan Hon. C. Clark R. Fleming Hon. P. Fassbender Support services for students with special needs S. Robinson Hon. P. Fassbender Funding for education K. Corrigan Hon. P. Fassbender Cabinet appointments and changes to agricultural land reserve N. Simons Hon. N. Letnick L. Popham

Reports from Committees ...... 4324 Special Committee to Appoint an Auditor General J. Yap

Motions Without Notice ...... 4324 Appointment of Auditor General J. Yap K. Corrigan Reports from Committees ...... 4325 Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, second report for the second session of the 40th parliament B. Ralston S. Sullivan Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth, fi rst report for the fi rst session of the 40th parliament J. Th ornthwaite C. James

Tabling Documents ...... 4326 WorkSafe B.C., 2013 annual report and 2014-2016 service plan

Petitions ...... 4326 D. Eby D. Routley D. Donaldson G. Heyman N. Simons

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 4327 Bill 24 — Agricultural Land Commission Amendment Act, 2014 (continued) On the amendment (continued) J. Rice K. Corrigan M. Farnworth B. Ralston N. Simons On the main motion B. Ralston On the amendment B. Ralston N. Macdonald

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 4356 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake G. Heyman D. Eby A. Dix S. Fraser S. Hammell S. Simpson

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply ...... 4379 Estimates: Ministry of Finance (continued) M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong Estimates: Management of Public Funds and Debt Estimates: Other Appropriations Estimates: Legislation Estimates: Offi cers of the Legislature Estimates: Offi ce of the Premier Hon. C. Clark J. Horgan 4313

WEDNESDAY, MAY 28, 2014 leagues in acknowledging his passing. By all accounts, Mr. Curtis served his constituents in Th e House met at 1:34 p.m. municipal and provincial politics with distinction and honour, and I understand that he was particularly proud [Madame Speaker in the chair.] of never being defeated in local and provincial elections for 25 consecutive years. Routine Business I do understand that there was an occasion in this House where he was actually ejected from the House in Prayers. an altercation with an NDP member. I'm sure he would [1335] regard that as a badge of honour, Madame Speaker. To his colleagues and his family, I want to extend my Tributes condolences and congratulations on a life well lived and in the public service. HUGH CURTIS Introductions by Members Hon. M. de Jong: Hugh Curtis was fi rst elected to pub- lic offi ce in, I think, 1964 and served locally as a council- Hon. A. Virk: We have a very robust gallery today, and lor and then as a mayor in Saanich. He served as an MLA as part of that, it's important to acknowledge a whole host in this chamber from 1972 to 1986. He served in min- of societies that have gathered to celebrate the Komagata isterial capacities, as Minister of Municipal Aff airs, but Maru Memorial Day today. is probably best known for the time he spent as British [1340] Columbia's second-longest-serving Finance Minister I will start off with acknowledgment of a number of from 1979 to 1986, almost exclusively in the government societies that are here. First and foremost, the Professor of then Premier Bill Bennett. Th ose were diffi cult times, Mohan Singh Memorial Foundation is here. Th ese guests and his was a diffi cult burden to bear, wherever you were are on the fl oor as well as in the gallery. on the political spectrum. Th e Khalsa Diwan Society of Vancouver, the Khalsa What perhaps isn't as well known about the service Diwan Society of Victoria, the Khalsa Diwan Society of that Hugh Curtis rendered to the province of British Nanaimo, the Alkali Singh Sikh Society in Vancouver, the Columbia is the lasting impact that his time as Finance Descendents of Komagata Maru Society, the World Sikh Minister has had institutionally. He was the minister that Organization of Canada, the Komagata Maru Heritage guided the passage of the Financial Administration Act Foundation, Gurdwara Baba Banda Singh Bahadar Sikh — not something that people think about every day but Society, Gurdwara Sahib Dasmesh Darbar, Guru Nanak something that has served the people and the govern- Niwas Richmond, Pakistan-Canada Association, Guru ment well since then. It received unanimous support in Nanak Sikh Gurdwara in Surrey, Khalsa Diwan Sikh this assembly, thanks largely to the work of Mr. Curtis. Society of Vancouver, Khalsa Diwan Society Abbotsford, His infl uence in creating a modern treasury secretariat Punjabi Market Association of Vancouver. We have the continues to be felt, and the benefi ts of that continue to Progressive Intercultural Society. We have the Indian Ex- accrue to British Columbians. Servicemen Society. It was with great sadness that we all learned of Hugh Would the House please make all these people wel- Curtis's passing yesterday. I know there are members of come. the chamber who worked closely with him, who got to know him in his various capacities, who were there when H. Bains: I'd also like to join with the minister on be- he was made a Freeman of the Municipality of Saanich half of the opposition, and I also would like to say thank in 2002. you for coming. Welcome to this House of yours. To all I know, Madame Speaker, that all members of the as- those organizations that the minister mentioned I say sembly, whether they worked closely or not with him, are thank you for continuing on with the fi ght that they are cognizant of the contribution he made to public life in doing. But also there are many individuals, and I say wel- British Columbia and to British Columbia in general and come to them. Please join with me, and let's give them a would want you, on our behalf, to send condolences to very, very warm welcome. his family and send our thanks from a grateful province for the contribution that Hugh Curtis made. R. Lee: Today is B.C. Jade Day. We have a very large celebration at the reception hall. Some of the guests are G. Holman: I'd like to extend the condolences of this actually staying for question period. Th ey are aboriginal side of the House, as well, as MLA for the constituency drummer Soloman Reece over there, Mr. and Mrs. Kirk in which Mr. Curtis served, although it was known then Makepeace, Charles Hu, Nanhui Zhong, Cici Yeimn, May as Saanich and the Gulf Islands. I'd like to join my col- Chiu, Jianchun Chen, Vincent Liu, Linda Chang, Kim 4314 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Carroll, Yaxin Guo, Lila Kwong and Jingsheng Ren. legislative interns through the summertime. I'd like to Would the House please make them very welcome. introduce our summer interns: Jonathan Barry, Simrath Grewal, Alessandra Harkness, Brooke Heller, Chris Hon. C. Clark: I have had an unusually pleasant day McGrath, Adam McPhee, Riley Whitelock, Jonathan today. Th ey're all pleasant, but this one has been a great Wilkinson and Sebastien Zein. Would the House please day so far because I am being job-shadowed today by two make them all feel welcome. students. Kiran Gill sent me an e-mail asking if she could job-shadow me. She says that she hopes one day she will D. Eby: I'd like to welcome, on behalf of the opposition, become Premier or, even better, become Prime Minister. a group of students and faculty from Douglas College I had to tell her it's not better. She's joined today by her and Camosun College who are concerned about the parents Jagtar Raj Gill and her brother Taran Gill. end of English-as-a-second-language programming at I'm also being job-shadowed by Cole Gaerber. Cole those schools this is year. Would the House make Ruab is 13. Kiran is 16, celebrating her birthday today, no less. Waraich, Ann-Kathrin Th iele, Tracy Ho, Farzin Jamatlou, What a way to spend your birthday. Cole is a student. He's Wei Cai Yu, Vione Yang, Kaho Shibuya and Andrea 13 and fascinated by environmental issues. We'll be meet- Eggenberger feel welcome. ing with the Minister of Environment a little bit later to- day. He's here with his father Allen Gaerber. Hon. M. Polak: It gives me great pleasure to introduce Th ey got to see us at our best today, joining together conservation offi cers who have done exceptional work with the opposition to commemorate the terrible events for British Columbians. Patricia Burley is in the House 100 years ago with respect to the Komagata Maru, and today to be recognized as the Outstanding Offi cer of the now they're about to see us in question period — at our Year and is the fi rst woman to receive this award. She is best in question period as well, I'm sure. joined by her husband, Mike Tonge. Ken Owens is also here in the House today to be J. Horgan: I want to join with the Premier because I awarded Outstanding Offi cer of the Year for 2013. Ken is was shadowed inadvertently by her job-shadowers today joined by his partner, Pam Johnstone. I'd ask the House as we were paying tribute to the 100th anniversary of the to please make them welcome. Komagata Maru. I know the minister will be making a statement shortly, and my colleague from Surrey-Newton M. Karagianis: I have a couple of introductions to will be following suit. I also wanted to say that the leader make, if you'll bear with me. I have a couple of little of the opposition is a good step to the Premier's position, groups here, and I'll try and go through them quite quick- so you can keep an eye on that. ly. I, too, would like to welcome some of the Camosun I digress, because my intent for rising was to…. Th is is, College's ESL learning program students from my con- of course, a familiar occurrence for many here. Because stituency. It's Eugeny Popelnitskiy, Mohammad Reza I'm a local MLA, when my spouse Ellie comes to visit, I Nagash Zargayan, Pei Mei Chia, and Roxana Ruiz- like to say hello to her via the television. So my delight- Gomez from that group. ful wife of 30 years, Ellie, is in the precinct today. Joining I also have, from my constituency, Olga Liberchuk, her is a very good friend of ours who was a maid of hon- who is a constituency assistant to MP Randall Garrison. our at our wedding a long, long time ago, an educator Lynn Klein is here with the paramedics for the British from Toronto, coming to see how we deal with education Columbia Ambulance Service. Robin Tosczak is here, issues here in British Columbia. Trish Oliver is with us and she is a teacher at View Royal Elementary, so she's today. Would the House please make both of them very, joining us here today. very welcome. I think members will be familiar with two of my other [1345] favourite visitors here. Kody Bell and Mark Bridges are in the precinct, so everybody be warned. Hang on to Hon. R. Coleman: I have three little packages of intro- your electronic devices. Th ey're here today with their job ductions. Th e fi rst one today is to introduce a person coach, Jeanine Reemst. who is a constituent of mine, one of the brightest young I'd also like to introduce a couple of other constituents women I have ever met. Jennifer Mamone from my area that are here. No stranger to this place, of course, is one of B.C., Fort Langley–Aldergrove, is here today. of my most famous constituents. is here on In addition to that, I have the pleasure of welcoming the fl oor with us, a past MLA and a groundbreaking in- to Victoria visitors from the B.C. Liberal Party offi ce. We dividual who was the fi rst Indo-Canadian elected here as know that without the dedication of our people that work MLA and who served as cabinet minister. He's here with for us, we really don't get where we want to get to. Two of his better half, and I can say that easily because I know them are here today — Brent Rein and Kirsten Hamilton. her. His beautiful and amazing wife, Jessie Parhar, is here, Also, there's a group of people that get a unique oppor- and that truly is the better half of this couple. tunity every year in British Columbia to come here to be Could we please make them all very welcome. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4315

Hon. P. Fassbender: We have so many guests today, Would the House please make these visitors very wel- but I did want to recognize three individuals that are here come. from the great city of Surrey: Mr. Prem Vinning, who's the former president of the World Sikh Organization here S. Robinson: I have several people to introduce to- in Canada, Satnam Johal, Jagmohan Singh; and Balkar day who are here in the gallery with us. Lisa Cable is Udham. I'd ask all of the members of the House to wel- here. She's an involved community member of the Tri- come them to the precincts. Cities. She owns and operates her own business, Sweet Beginnings, an event planning business. She's the mother J. Darcy: It gives me great pleasure to welcome one of of two delightful children, Ryder, 5, and Lily, 3. my constituents, who's here today as part of the Douglas She's here with a couple of my other friends. Ramona Students Union delegation, the internal relations co- Chu is here. Ramona and I met while serving on the par- ordinator Lorna Howat. I've had the great pleasure of ent advisory committee for Dr. Charles Best high school working with her on a number of issues, including ac- in my constituency. Ramona is one of those parents who cess to post-secondary education, equality issues. I'd volunteers for everything that's going on in the school, like to take the opportunity to welcome her to the House and with a 22-year-old and a 16-year-old, it means that here today. she's been a volunteer parent in our schools for 17 years and counting. She's joined by Bonny Gibson, another S. Sullivan: I'm very honoured to introduce to the constituent, who also has a daughter going to Dr. Charles House a gentleman named Paul Cermak. He was the very Best School. fi rst volunteer for an organization called Tetra. Th is is a I'd also like to take this time to introduce three par- group of engineers and technically skilled people who ents whose children attend school in Maple Ridge and build devices for disabled people. Mission. Stacy McLennan, Laura Pomgrants and Scott [1350] Susin are here to watch our proceedings. He was volunteer No. 1, and since his time, they've If the members of the House can please make them created over 5,000 assisted devices for people with dis- feel welcome. abilities. He's here with his wife, Rosemary Bundell, and good friend Imy. Please welcome them. Hon. T. Wat: I would like to introduce to the House my two very best friends. Th e fi rst one is a very well- C. James: I also have a group of constituents who are known Chinese community leader, a philanthropist and here as part of the group that's concerned with program- a very successful business person and also president of ming for ESL: Natalia Potokina, Rufo Boria, Mi Joo Lee, the Canadian National Chinese Congress, David Choi. Linda Guintos and Judith Hunt. Would the House please Th e second one is my constituency assistant, Regina Tsui, make those individuals very welcome. from Richmond Centre. Would the House please join me Th e second set of introductions are two individuals in welcoming them. who are very important to me in my life. Bobbie and Al Mitchell are here. I'll always be grateful to Bobbie for J. Shin: As part of our Douglas and Camosun Colleges sharing her brother, Norman Davy, with our family for delegation in the gallery today, I have the pleasure of over 20 years. Although Norman isn't with us anymore, introducing my Burnaby-Lougheed constituent, Greg he certainly will always live on and his impact to our Teuling. I also would like to take this opportunity to hon- family will always live on. We will always remember his our a man who once told me last year: "Jane, our Punjabi smile and his laughter and I'm so grateful. Please wel- community was empowered by electing representatives come Bobbie and Al Mitchell. to serve in public offi ce. Let's make sure our Korean com- munity achieve the same." So this man that I look up to Hon. T. Lake: I'm pleased today to have two sets is seated right behind me today, the fi rst Indo-Canadian of introductions. With us in the gallery today is the MLA, Moe Sihota. I just want to give him my personal president of the B.C. Chiropractic Association, Dr. Jay thanks and welcome. Robinson, and the executive director of the association, Lastly, I'm thrilled that my Punjabi papa is here today, Rick Nickelchok. Th e association represents B.C.'s chiro- and he's also sitting right behind me. Would the House practors by providing leadership, information and ser- please make Mike Mukhtar Sandhu feel very welcome. vices for their members to meet and enhance the health care of British Columbians. Hon. J. Rustad: All throughout my ministry I've got Also in the precinct today I'm very happy to have coun- great staff that do a lot of real quality work on behalf cillors Don Matthew and Shelly Loring of the Simpcw of the people of British Columbia, but there are some First Nation. Th ey are here to meet with the Ministers that are here in the audience today that I want to intro- of Energy and Aboriginal Relations regarding economic duce from my deputy ministry's offi ce: Shawna French, opportunities in the beautiful North Th ompson Valley. Sarah Sparks, Alana McDonald, Kim Ponchet, Sheila 4316 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Kowalewsky and Janice Franklin. Would the House on a ship named the Komagata Maru. On May 23, 1914, please make them welcome. that ship entered Vancouver's Burrard Inlet carrying 376 [1355] passengers from India. Why had they come here? I'll tell you why. Th ey were R. Fleming: I want to make two sets of introduc- simply looking for a new life, a better life in Canada. Th is tions. Th e fi rst is to welcome Benula Larsen, who is the is something most immigrants, including my own family, president of the Greater Victoria Teachers Association, understand very well. But that did not happen, Madame to the House today. Th en there's also a delegation from Speaker. Instead they were turned away and not allowed greater Victoria, Camosun College students involved to enter Canada. What made this event even more tragic in the ESL program at that institution who have joined was that upon their forced repatriation to India 19 pas- with us today, including Xiao Yin Zhang, Min Yan Zhao, sengers were killed. Louisa Mamisao, Svitlana Potapova, Rachael Grant, Regrettably, like the historical wrongs against the Diana Kohl, Tony Vernon, Ibrahim Almalki, Jumana Chinese community, the Komagata Maru was one of Chikalkasir, Eui Tae Kim and Leigh Sunderland. Th ey're several incidents in the 20th century involving exclusion all here with us today. Will the House please make them laws in Canada and the United States. feel welcome. Th e Komagata Maru incident is not just a story of what happened in 1914. It is one chapter in a long strug- R. Lee: I would like to add a few guests here to cele- gle to create a Canada that resists racism and a Canada brate B.C. Jade Day: Lyle Sopel — he's a master of jade that resists hatred. Th at story continued to inspire those stone carving; Tony Ritter, from the industry, and Barry who believe in a Canada that accepts, celebrates and wel- Price; as well as Anne-Marie Martel. Would the House comes diversity. please make them welcome. In 2008 the British Columbia Legislature made a for- mal apology to the South Asian community. I know that D. Donaldson: I would like to follow on the words of all members of this House believe that a rich, multicul- the member for Burnaby North. We are all wearing a jade tural society helps nurture acceptance, nurtures under- medallion today in honour of B.C. Jade Day. Th e industry standing and nurtures mutual respect. Cultural diversity, representatives are here, and the artists and First Nations. increased participation and engagement by all cultures I'd like to make them welcome and say that of the world are vitally important to creating a strong, vibrant and production of jade, three-quarters of it comes from B.C. economic future for British Columbia. A large part of that comes from the constituency of Earlier today the Premier and the opposition leader Stikine, Jade City being one of the locations on the Kaska joined together in a non-partisan way. Together with traditional territories. the support of all members of this House they pro- It's not just mining, hon. Speaker. Th ere's a reality TV claimed May 28, 2014, in British Columbia to be known show being fi lmed in Jade City. Omnifi lm is fi lming it, as Komagata Maru Remembrance Day. on the jade sector and the jade industry. So it's not just [1400] mining. It's creative arts that are part of this too. Would Madame Speaker, I am deeply honoured to stand here all members acknowledge B.C. Jade Day and welcome today as a proud Canadian of South Asian descent for the the visitors to the gallery. inaugural Komagata Maru Remembrance Day.

M. Bernier: It's my pleasure to welcome in the House H. Bains: It is my privilege and honour to stand here today a bunch of young students who travelled 1,400 and follow the minister and talk about our history. When kilometres to come down on a bus from Little Prairie we refl ect back into our history, examine our activities, Elementary School, which is by Chetwynd in my riding. three things come to mind — who were these people, Will the House please make them welcome. what happened to them, and what did they do — and how far we have come and where we need to go. Ministerial Statements Komagata Maru actually acted as a Rosa Parks for the South Asians in Canada. It galvanized and sparked the 100th ANNIVERSARY OF community to stand up for their rights. It instilled in KOMAGATA MARU INCIDENT them that we need to make Canada a better Canada, a more just Canada, an equal Canada. Th ey didn't give up Hon. A. Virk: Sat sri akal, namaste, salaam alaikum, on Canada, despite all the diffi culties, the challenges not good aft ernoon, bonjour. I think it's more than fi tting this only in this House and other parliamentary Houses in day that I use a variety of greetings in this, the people's Canada but what the government actions were outside House, today, as we celebrated the Komagata Maru of these chambers — the discriminatory racist laws be- Remembrance Day. ing passed here, close to 140 of them. Today I rise in the House to remember the passengers Th en the government agents didn't stop here. Th ey Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4317 were working within the community to destabilize the As we say, "Th at was in the past," but my good friend Ali community, divide the community, try to buy them Kazimi, in his very recent article quoted a very famous off . Th ey went to great lengths. Th ey even tried to con- American writer, James Baldwin, reminds us. He said: vince them: "We will send you to Honduras, if you leave "If history were past, history wouldn't matter. History is Canada. We'll buy land for you." present. You and I are history. We carry our history. We I say thanks to those people who didn't give up on act our history." Canada and said: "No, this is our country. We will make As a reminder to all of us here and elsewhere, we, as Canada a better place to live." the legislators, must remind ourselves that we are the his- Government agents even went as far as going to the tory. Actions that we take here we want to make sure will 2nd Avenue temple that was run under the leadership of pass the test 50 years, 60 years and forever in this country. Khalsa Diwan Society at the time, and shots were fi red. So thank you very much for the opportunity, and I Many were injured. Bhai Bag Singh, who was serving the want to say thank you, all of you, for continuing to carry Guru Granth Sahib and sitting on that seat, didn't make the torch. People like Charan Gill continue on to carry it. He was killed. But that didn't sway the community — the torch, to make our country a better place, better than none of that. None of the bribes and none of the attempts what we inherited from our parents. to purchase or buy them worked. Th ey continued on. I want to say thank you to them. As a result of their Statements perseverance, their commitment — and their commit- (Standing Order 25B) ment to even die for an equal Canada — is the reason that I am here, as many members of South Asian descent B.C. JADE DAY made this House. Many organizations and individuals had a huge role R. Lee: Today is B.C. Jade Day. Th e province of British to play in that. I must mention a few: International Columbia is blessed with many rich mineral deposits. It's Woodworkers of America, especially the president, well known that we have gold and silver mines and that Harold Pritchett, who went with the delegations to these mines generate many economic benefi ts for our Ottawa and here and tried to get us the right to vote; province. But it's less commonly known that another CCF leadership of the day, who didn't make the popular mineral, jade, is increasingly valued by carvers of fi ne decision but made the right decision to make sure that jewelry and sculptors here at home and also across Asia. they wanted to stand for the right causes. I want to say As demand increases, B.C. jade has the potential to be- thank you to them. come an emerging job creation industry. While Canada In 1972, when Dave Barrett fi rst won the government, as a whole produces jade, nearly all of the jade deposits although we had the right to vote, laws were equal now, are here in our great province. In fact, B.C. jade was pro- but there were some languages in some cities…. Th e claimed the offi cial mineral emblem of our province in covenant still stated that certain races could not pur- 1968. Th is is because jade has a long history in British chase properties in diff erent parts of the city. He said that was one of the fi rst things that they did as a government, Columbia. under order-in-council — have that thing eliminated. Jade artifacts, such as decorative materials and plates As a result of all of those eff orts, people like Dr. Gurdev dating back to 3000 BC, have been found in the southern Singh Gill, the fi rst Indo-Canadian to practise medicine part of this province, like Lillooet and New Westminster. in B.C. And as a result of that, Naranjin Singh Grewall, Th e fi rst offi cial record of jade in B.C. is from Sir John the fi rst Indo-Canadian to get elected to any offi ce as the Richardson in 1851. During the gold rush years in the mayor of Mission. 1850s and 1860s, Chinese prospectors discovered jade [1405] in the Fraser River. In 1887 Dr. George Dawson record- It continues on. In 1986 my good friend, who is here ed that jade tools were used by the Salish people. Jade with us, Moe Sihota, the fi rst South Asian to get elect- has been found in many areas in the province, including ed in any Legislative Assembly of Canada. I want to say Dease Lake, Cassiar, Omineca and on the gravel bars of thank you to him for opening up the doors for us to the Yalakom, Bridge, Coquihalla and lower Fraser rivers. these Houses. B.C. jade is very similar to Chinese jade, which also I want to continue, to say the community themselves, has a rich jade history that can be traced back for 4,000 the mills of the world, the Herb Domans of the world, the years. It's not surprising that B.C. jade is getting popu- Terminal Forests of the world. Th ey went to the pinnacle lar in Asia and that the demand is increasing. In 1990 a on the industry side, and they showed the public what 13-tonne jade Buddha was carved for the Great Stupa of they can do, that they are second to none in any aspect Universal Compassion in Th ailand. of life. Today we have presidents of UBC. So in celebration of this great mineral and Asian Th e third part that I want to say is this: where do we Heritage Month, we celebrate the diversity of our com- go from here? Th e work isn't over. It's just the beginning. munity that we also share among our cultures. 4318 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

SUPPORT SERVICES FOR IMMIGRANTS 2011 they were recognized in Berlin as the best new spa in the mountain category in the world. J. Shin: Immigrants arriving in British Columbia, like Mr. Gernot Langes-Swarovski, the imagination be- my family and I did, face many linguistic, economic and hind bringing the European-style spa experience to the social barriers in their settlement process, and such bar- Okanagan, is a man with a history in sparkle. His family riers compound their challenges when they're looking for name, Swarovski, has been a leader in crystals and beauty. city housing or employment. Th ey have innovated for over a century. [1410] Together, the visionary minds of Swarovski crystal's So 50.5 percent of recent immigrants experience hid- head of innovation, Mr. Andreas Altmayer, and Sparkling den homelessness — couch-surfing or living in over- Hills CEO Hans-Peter Mayr integrated more than 3.5 crowded living spaces or in temporary conditions at million crystal elements into the design of Sparkling churches and warehouses — and are prone to infections Hill. Th e brilliance and beauty of crystals is on display and chronic and mental illnesses. and part of every experience you will have while enjoy- Children of recent immigrants are also at the highest ing your stay. risk in B.C., with 49.6 percent — that's one in every two Don't take my word for it. Th e weather in the Okanagan children — living in poverty. Th ese kids grow up just a is already beautiful. Take a drive up to Vernon any time, little weaker, a tad bit slower, leading to delayed cognitive any weekend. Stop into Sparkling Hill and enjoy one of development, increased illiteracy, higher dropout rates the world's fi nest resorts. Please join me in congratulating and lower achievement. CEO Mr. Hans-Peter Mayr and his outstanding staff on Th at's why I would like to take this opportunity today four years of success. I thank them for choosing Vernon to acknowledge and thank the generous communities for their home. that we have in B.C. We have a multitude of organiza- tions, like the Burnaby Neighbourhood House, helping BAYVIEW COMMUNITY SCHOOL CENTENNIAL new immigrants with their welcome and inclusion pro- grams. We have groups like the Burnaby Rotary Club and D. Eby: For more than 100 years, Kitsilano has been Burnaby Firefi ghters collecting winter coats and provid- a growing and vibrant community. Of course, growing ing healthy snacks for our school children. and vibrant communities need schools for young fam- We also have incredible teachers oft en — too oft en ilies. Th at's why, despite the construction of General — paying out of their pockets to supply and equip our Gordon school in 1912, a second home for young learn- students. We also have many Sikh temples in our com- ers on Vancouver's west side had to be built, and urgently. munities and countless individuals fundraising and vol- A hundred years ago, in August of 1914, Kitsilano fam- unteering relentlessly to lend a helping hand. ilies welcomed their brand-new Bayview Elementary In particular, I would like to express gratitude for the School located at West 7th and Collingwood. With only delegation of 30 students, staff and faculty from Douglas four classrooms at its humble beginning, Bayview is now College and Camosun College here with us today, joining home to over 300 students from kindergarten to grade 7. us, not just providing the incredibly important English Today all 300 students and their families are celebrat- training but also doing their part in engaging and em- ing the school's long and remarkable history, with many powering the new Canadians in our community to feel alumni, teachers and volunteers during the school's at home and to succeed in B.C. centennial celebration, featuring singers, displays of the school's history, performances by student groups and an SPARKLING HILL RESORT open house. In 1916 Bayview established Vancouver's fi rst parent- E. Foster: It gives me great pleasure today to rise to teacher association, a group that remains vibrant to- speak of a tremendous Vernon-Monashee success story. day, advocating for seismic upgrading at the school and Four years ago Sparkling Hill Resort, located in the much-needed resources for maintenance for a 100-year- heart of the Okanagan in Vernon, opened its doors to old building. the world. Since opening in May of 2010, Sparkling Hill In the 1970s Bayview celebrated another fi rst when it has received many, many awards. Th ey've been recog- received its offi cial designation as a community school. nized as an international wellness destination leader and While the offi cial designation and funding ended several recognized as being in the top-performing 10 percent of years ago, the Bayview Community School still proudly businesses worldwide, receiving the 2013 TripAdvisor keeps the name and the community spirit behind the Certifi cate of Excellence. original program. In the Fodor's category for trendsetting, they have [1415] been recognized as one of the top hotels in the world. Th e staff and students at Bayview have also been lead- Sparkling Hill Resort was also a Spafinder Wellness ers in establishing international connections. While Readers Choice Award, winning in many categories. In digging through the archives in preparation for today's Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4319

celebrations, Bayview's principal, Noreen Morris, found a ship called the Komagata Maru entered Canadian wat- a box sent from Bayview's sister school in Japan in 1940. ers with 376 passengers. Th ey hoped for a new and bet- Filled with delicate paper cuttings, a national fl ag and ter life in Canada, which they believed was their right as painted landscapes from a grade 2 class, it will be a fea- British subjects. Little they knew that upon arrival they tured part of today's decade rooms tour. would receive the cruelest and inhumane reception at the Innovation never stops at Bayview, and today the cele- hands of the Canadian authorities. brations won't stop either. Th is 100-year birthday party Th e Khalsa Diwan Society, along with other progres- for the school is the product of and will be enjoyed by sive people, did everything they could to keep them here, countless volunteers, alumni, neighbours, current and but it was of no avail. Aft er two months the Komagata former staff , friends and students. I'm sure the whole Maru, along with most of its passengers, was forced to community will be proud to partake in the school's return to India, with deadly consequences. theme song: "Bayview school, our community school, Although the South Asians were in Canada since where everybody likes to come. Bayview school is our 1895, they did not get the right to vote until 1947. Much school. Come on and have some fun." progress has been made since those dark days of our his- tory. South Asians have successfully established them- ELECTION IN UKRAINE selves in business, education, medicine, law, lumber and agricultural industries, not to forget politics. Th e fi rst Moira Stilwell: I wish to speak today on the situation South Asian, Mr. Naranjan Singh Grewall, was elected in Ukraine. It is an issue that has deeply aff ected and res- the mayor of Mission in 1954. Moe Sihota was elected onated with me, as I know it has with many of you sit- the fi rst South Asian MLA in 1986. ting here today. In 2005, when I was fi rst elected, the fi rst thought that As the situation deteriorated over the past months, I came to my mind when I walked into this chamber was have been heartened by the display of unity and solidarity that this was the place where those racist policies were across the nation. I commend the government of Canada adopted to deny 376 human beings their rightful entry on its strong and ongoing response to the situation, and into Canada. to the Premier for her statements on December 13 and Our journey for fairness is not over yet. Bigotry and March 5. As the Prime Minister, the Premier and many prejudice still exist. We must learn from our past to have leaders around the world have said, the sovereignty of a better future. Th at's why it is so important that our Ukraine must be respected. school curriculum includes lessons about the Komagata I believe an important stand was made on Sunday in Maru, the Chinese head tax and the correct history of the pursuit of peace and stability. Th ough not without its the aboriginal people. challenges in the face of the violence and intimidation, [1420] Ukrainians went to the polls to exercise their democrat- Th anks to all the community leaders who are here with ic rights to determine their own future. Th e long lines us today and to all Members of the Legislative Assembly were a testament to their bravery and courage, for stand- for your support and eff orts to make B.C. an inclusive ing up for the freedom to vote without fear is something and welcoming place for everyone. we sometimes take for granted in a country like Canada. Here in British Columbia we are home to people from Oral Questions all over the world. We are proud to welcome everyone regardless of race, ethnicity or culture. We value their GOVERNMENT ROLE IN contributions and that of their descendants to the multi- TEACHERS LABOUR DISPUTE cultural and economic fabric of our beautiful and great province. J. Horgan: Last week the Premier went on radio and In western Canada the impact of Ukrainian commun- made the claim that B.C. teachers don't care about class ities is especially felt. British Columbia alone is home to size and class composition; they just care about the a large Ukrainian community, over 200,000 strong. It is money. I don't know where the Premier gets her informa- our hope that this election is the beginning of a peaceful tion. I, on Monday, went to the schools that my children resolution for the people of Ukraine. graduated from, and I talked to the teachers that helped Freedom and democracy are values that we share with shape their minds and shape their characters into the many nations. It is in Canada's national interest and in fi ne, upstanding citizens they are today. Not one of those the interest of us all. teachers mentioned money. Every single one of them talked about how they want 100th ANNIVERSARY OF to give more to their kids than they're able to, but they're KOMAGATA MARU INCIDENT constrained by the absence of any coherent class-size and class composition language in their collective agreements. R. Chouhan: One hundred years ago on May 23, 1914, Th at's been the case for 12 years. Children who started 4320 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

in grade 1 when the now Premier was then the Minister with almost half of the public service. of Education have had a disrupted education, and now [1425] they look at the last month of their time in the K-to-12 We have been successful when we've sat down, ne- system and there are more disruptions. gotiated, rolled up our sleeves and recognized that our My question to the Premier is: how is infl aming the hard-working public servants — whether they are nurs- tensions that already exist helping us get to a collect- es, doctors, police offi cers or teachers — deserve a raise. ive agreement that will ensure that our kids get the best Th ey've earned it. It needs to be an aff ordable raise. It education they possibly can in the public school system? needs to be one that's fair across the public sector. But we know we can get there. Hon. C. Clark: Th is is a very, very challenging time for Th e only way to do it, though, is to decide that we — parents, for students in particular but also for teachers the teachers union and the government — want to bar- in the classroom. Th ere's been a lot of confusion about gain this agreement the same way we bargained it with what's happening out there, and as we go out and we over 40 percent of the public sector, and that's sitting attempt to get an agreement between the government down, rolling up our sleeves and working hard to get to and the teachers union, we need to decide we want to an agreement. do that by bargaining, by sitting down at the table and talking about the bargainable issues like class size, class Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on a composition, pay raises for teachers and all of the other further supplemental. issues that are there. Th at should happen without disrupting classrooms J. Horgan: Th e Premier talks about the dysfunction for children. It can happen. It's what all of us would like of the system over 30 years, over one-third of that time to see happen. Let's get to the bargaining table. Let's sit under the watch of the B.C. Liberals. Th e dysfunction down. Let's bargain hard, and let's prove that aft er 30 started, I would argue — and I think just about everyone years of dysfunction in bargaining between government agrees with me; certainly the Supreme Court does, not and the BCTF we can sit down, bargain an agreement once but twice — when that Premier, then the minister, like adults and leave the kids out of it. stripped contracts and took away language….

Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official Interjections. Opposition on a supplemental. J. Horgan: We've heard the Premier say that she's got J. Horgan: If only it was bargaining by adults, maybe trouble with the teachers. Th ey're greedy. Th at was the we'd be in a better position, but the record of the govern- fi rst thing out of her mouth. Th en it was: "Let's get them ment in power since 2001 is far from that. Th e record of in a room and lock the door until they come up with a the government in power is stripping collective agree- deal." Th e latest intervention on behalf of students and ments, stripping agreements that were duly signed by the parents and teachers across British Columbia is: "If I employer and the employee. don't have a deal by sundown Saturday, there's going to We now have confusion, as the Premier rightly points be heck to pay." Or the actual quote was: "Or else." out, but the confusion is coming from the Minister of So it begs the question to the Premier: if there's not Education and his obscure determination that a lockout a deal in 48 hours as you have mandated, what's the "or was in the best interests of the bargaining process. It did else"? not include any consultation with the actual employer under the labour code — duly elected trustees. We have Hon. C. Clark: In 30 years in almost every agreement trustees in this province, every corner of this province that has been settled between the government and the — administrators, teachers, parents — still getting ex- teachers union, governments have legislated almost every planations from the minister seven days aft er he made single one of them aft er job action has erupted into our the determination. classrooms. Th at member conveniently forgets that he Instead of heightening tension, instead of adding to was an adviser to a government that legislated teachers the confusion, why won't this government recognize that back to work. It's because of the dysfunction in the way stripping rights, taking away the constitutional rights of that we bargain. We need to fi x that. teachers — not once but twice — and provoking a strike We need to restructure the way that we bargain be- is not in the best interests of our children, our families tween teachers and government. We need to work on get- or our province? ting to ten years of labour peace so that students will be protected in the long term and that teachers will be guar- Hon. C. Clark: Th e government's success in negotiat- anteed to be treated fairly. I believe that this is what most ing with public sector workers is unparalleled. We have classroom teachers want. Th is is what government wants. successfully negotiated tentative or ratifi ed agreements Th is is something that I believe is going to mean we Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4321

are able to move forward, improve our education system tional time," and not to "attend any meetings with man- and make sure that kids in the future don't end up — as agement, other than meetings of worksite joint health they have almost every time for the last 30 years, includ- and safety." ing when that member was advising an NDP govern- I'd like to know why the members opposite, when this ment — in the middle of these disputes, because they press release came out and when the BCTF launched the shouldn't be there. action, didn't pick up the phone and call their friends and say: "Why are you provoking this? Why are you putting R. Fleming: Well, Madame Speaker, you're going to students in the middle? Let's keep classes functioning have to forgive British Columbians for wondering just while we're still at the table, trying to negotiate." exactly what this government does want. In the last 24 hours we've had the Minister of Education saying he R. Fleming: I think we would all agree here that a wants a settlement by the end of June. Th en we've heard lockout order that requires fi ve statements of clarifi ca- the Premier say: "Th ere better be something in place in tion in Qs and As is the very defi nition of confusion and three days or else." Is it any wonder that parents across incompetence. British Columbia and teachers are utterly confused by I want to ask the minister about another area in this government's escalation this week of locking teachers dispute that he has deliberately muddied the waters on in out from their daily duties as teachers? negotiations. It's the issue of class size and composition. Th ere's a 12-year record of acrimony, and…. It's a central issue in this dispute. It's critical. Th e minister told the media on the weekend that "all Interjections. the studies in the world say that class size and compos- ition don't have any impact on learning outcomes." Well, Madame Speaker: Th e members will come to order. we went to the Legislative Library to see if some of those Please continue. studies available in the world were here. Luckily, unlike many schools across British Columbia, R. Fleming: It's only the government side, unfortu- the Legislature still has librarians. I now have a stack of nately, that has the chance to put things on a diff erent research, which I'm only too happy to share with the min- footing in British Columbia, but they're continuing the ister, that shows defi nitively that class size and compos- pattern that only they know best, which is a pattern of ition do impact learning outcomes. confrontation instead of negotiation, imposing legisla- Will the minister just admit that in order to fi nd a way tion. Th e courts have shown that that is a disaster. Th at ahead in this dispute, his government's ignoring of the is no way ahead for British Columbia. key issues like class size and composition is one of the [1430] reasons why his government has been utterly unable to British Columbians need a commitment that this gov- resolve this dispute and it drags on? ernment and this Premier will stop creating confusion, will yield on their agenda of retribution and will fi nd a Hon. P. Fassbender: Six weeks of silence aft er the way to negotiate ahead so that B.C. parents can have their BCTF initiated strike action — six weeks of silence. Now kids back in our schools. we have indication that we are at fault. Will the minister just commit today to stop unfairly [1435] blaming teachers for everything, set aside the threats and But I'll tell you this. Six weeks of no response from the help facilitate a settlement so that there's actually an al- members opposite. We now have children…. ternative in British Columbia to the chaos that this gov- ernment has created in our public schools? Interjections.

Hon. P. Fassbender: I am amazed at the righteous — Madame Speaker: Members. Members. or unrighteous — indignation from the member oppos- ite, and I'd like to bring some facts to his attention. Th e Hon. P. Fassbender: We do regret that children and accusation that the government has provoked some- parents and communities are caught in the middle of this thing…. I'm going to read from a press release that was dispute. We have been very clear that it was the strike ac- put out by your friends at the BCTF on April 17. Here tion initiated by the BCTF six weeks ago that brought us are some facts. to where we are today. We have been at the table. Th is During stage 1 job action their members were in- government, through the employers association, has structed by the BCTF not to "undertake any mandated made signifi cant moves to get a negotiated settlement: supervision of students outside of regularly scheduled a reduction in term, a $1,200 signing bonus, movement classes, except as set out under essential services order," on the salary grid. not to "be at a worksite one hour before commencement To suggest that we are not focused on student learning of instructional time and one hour at the end of instruc- outcomes and not focused on a negotiated settlement is 4322 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

truly, truly the height of hypocrisy by the members op- Hon. P. Fassbender: Since 2001 an additional $1 posite. billion every year invested in education. A learning improvement fund to deal with composition issues in SUPPORT SERVICES FOR the classroom of $225 million. All-day kindergarten at STUDENTS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS $120 million. Graduation rates, increased by 15 percent. Aboriginal students, increased graduation rates of 103 S. Robinson: A Coquitlam school district parent who percent. Th e number of special needs students graduat- is watching from the public gallery here today, along ing in the province of British Columbia, increased by 166 with many other concerned parents, has a three-year-old percent. So the facts speak for themselves. daughter named Lily who is hard of hearing. Currently Lily exceeds expectations for children her age. Th at's be- CABINET APPOINTMENTS AND CHANGES cause a team of people are working with her and sup- TO AGRICULTURAL LAND RESERVE porting her. But Lisa is scared that when her daughter starts school in 2015, she'll fall behind because there N. Simons: We've obtained e-mails between the simply will not be enough resources in her classroom Minister Responsible for Core Review and the former to go around. Minister of Agriculture from before they were appointed Lisa is worried that aft er 12 years of erosion of sup- to cabinet. Th ese e-mails make it clear they disliked the port services in our schools, Lily will not get the supports agricultural land reserve and wanted to undermine the that she will need to succeed when she fi nally does start land commission. Clearly, the views that were expressed school. Can the Premier please tell Lisa and the families in these e-mails should probably have disqualifi ed them like hers why their children are not receiving the sup- from being eligible to sit in cabinet, but instead, they were ports they need to thrive in our schools? rewarded by the Premier with the two positions most ca- pable of destroying our farmland. Hon. P. Fassbender: I met with the individual that the Can the Premier confi rm that when she appointed member opposite mentioned and a friend. We had a very these two members, she was endorsing their plan to dis- good discussion about the future of education not only mantle the commission and open up agricultural land for their children but for all the children of the province for development? of British Columbia. Th at is why this government is committed to long-term Hon. N. Letnick: Th ank you very much to the mem- stability in classrooms that continues our track record ber opposite for the question. Our government's ap- of great outcomes for students and improves on them. proach to the Agricultural Land Commission has been Education does need to transform, but we also have to consistent for many, many years. What we want to do is do it in a climate of stability. We have to do it in a climate where we clearly understand that every child deserves a continue with the Agricultural Land Commission Act, positive learning experience, a positive learning environ- to continue to make sure that we preserve farmland for ment that is stable and, yes, that we can aff ord within the future generations. structure of our education system. But we also want to make sure that we encourage farm- ing on that land. Th at's of primary importance through- FUNDING FOR EDUCATION out our province, and that's what we're doing right now with the bill that is before the House. We've had great de- K. Corrigan: I think it's rich that the Minister of bate over the last few weeks on this, and we will continue Education talks about stability when this is a government today and tomorrow, as I understand. that intentionally incited a strike in order to curry polit- I want to talk just a little bit, give an example of what ical favour. It's in the court documents. we're talking about here, if I have time. Th is is an excerpt from a letter by a Burnaby parent "We are fruit growers here in Creston, and you may who writes: "Th ere is nothing more important than giv- have heard of us. We have the world's best juice, as ing our kids a quality education, for both their develop- awarded to us in 2012 for our black cherry juice. Th is ment and that of our province. Unfortunately, aft er more last year our apple juice won second place for best new than a decade of underfunding in British Columbia, juice at the World Juice Awards this year in Cologne, there are far too many children that are still in crowd- Germany. We have a small processing facility here in ed classrooms and are receiving less of the one-on-one British Columbia…." attention they need and they deserve." Will the Premier listen to the parents who are plead- Madame Speaker: Th ank you, Minister. ing with this government and start investing in our pub- lic education system? Hon. N. Letnick: I might have to continue that letter [1440] later, when I have more time. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4323

N. Simons: Th e minister is new. I understand that, Please continue. but he should know his fi le a little better than that. Th e issue of the cherry juice–maker isn't one that he should L. Popham: Th e Liberals said their farm-destroying be quoting in this House. If they want to sell their land legislation was "aimed at continuing to protect B.C.'s in order to get the capital to do something else…. Th at's rich farmland," but they broke their promise. Instead, e- not what it's about. Th is bill is about opening up land for mails reveal that it was always about pure B.C. Liberal development, and the minister knows that. political crassness. Th e Premier knew of the hostility these two members To the Premier, now that B.C. knows the real story, had towards the Agricultural Land Commission and will she immediately put a stop to this legislative sham? the agricultural land reserve. Th ey had the motive. She gave them the opportunity and the means. If her intent Hon. N. Letnick: Th ank you to the member opposite wasn't to break up the ALR and the independent com- for the question. Again, I understand the passion of all mission, why did she appoint these two to important members in this House. I understand that, through all cabinet positions? the letters I've received, both in favour of the proposed [1445] changes as well as those that are opposed. I understand how it's important to have food security in our province. Hon. N. Letnick: I understand the passion of the We are working towards that on this side of the House, member opposite. I understand the passion of everyone as I'm sure all members in this House would like us to in this province to make sure that we have a strong ALC achieve that. that is independent of politicians, that works to make In 2010 the chair of the ALC went around the province, sure we have an ALR that is there not only today but for talked to hundreds of people, listened to many submis- future generations. Th at's exactly what we're doing on sions and produced a report. At the same time, I believe, this side of the House. another report was produced by the Offi ce of the Auditor We are here to help the ALR continue, not only by General. Th at information was taken into account by the making sure we preserve agricultural land but by helping minister of the day. Th e process continued. farmers farm that land. For the life of me, I cannot under- It is government that proposed a change to the legisla- stand. What is the problem with telling someone in the tion to ensure that we have strong agricultural land but North Peace, for example, who has 600 acres of land that also strong farmers on that land. It is this government if he wants to park a few trucks on his property so that that adopted some changes to the legislation, which I pro- he can service industry around, he can do that if — and posed aft er consulting with the B.C. Agricultural Council here's the big catch — the independent ALC believes it's and the leadership of the ALC — all of this through the in the best interests of agriculture to do so? public consultation that I have done through my letters. Th at's exactly what we're doing here, and I wish the We've had great time to debate it. Tomorrow we'll members opposite would join us in supporting this bill have a vote, and we'll see what happens aft er that. But when it comes forward tomorrow. it continues, with consultation on the regulations soon to follow. L. Popham: From the e-mails revealed today, it's more obvious now than ever that the plan to disman- L. Popham: Th is is not the Minister of Agriculture tle our ALR started before the election. Th is was led by responding to this. Th is is the minister of development. MLAs whose agenda was clear before they were given [1450] cabinet posts by the Premier. Th e Liberals said their Before the election the B.C. Liberals said they would farm-destroying legislation was "aimed at continuing protect farmland, yet aft er the election the Premier ap- to protect B.C.'s rich farmland." pointed a cabinet clearly bent on breaking apart the agri- cultural land reserve. Th e Premier acted deliberately to Interjections. kill the ALR, steamrolling over concerns from farmers, chefs and food lovers in this province. Madame Speaker: Members. Given the facts that she has no mandate to make these changes, will she end the attack on B.C. farmland today L. Popham: But instead, they broke their promise. and kill Bill 24?

Interjections. Hon. N. Letnick: Th ank you to the member opposite for the question. Madame Speaker: Member, just wait. We continue to support agriculture on this side of the Members. We are waiting till the Chair can hear the House. We did it by a 20 percent increase in the budget answer and the question. for agriculture over the last two years, millions of dol- Please take your seat, Member. lars for a Buy Local program to encourage people to buy 4324 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

products right here from British Columbia. We're rebat- In moving this motion, I'd like to provide a brief profi le ing the carbon tax on our greenhouses. We're rebating of the candidate unanimously selected by the committee. the carbon tax on purple fuels for our farmers. Ms. Bellringer, who is in the gallery with us, is the for- We're changing the ALC to give them all the independ- mer Auditor General for the province of Manitoba, a pos- ence they need to make good decisions on preserving ition that she held from 2006 to March 2014. She also was good agricultural land right here in British Columbia. We Manitoba's Auditor General from 1992 to 1996, when it have money for replant going forward too — almost half was known as the Offi ce of the Provincial Auditor. a billion dollars over the next fi ve years, a $14 billion goal. Ms. Bellringer is a chartered accountant and holds an We have people going to China and we have people go- MBA from the Warsaw School of Economics, University ing all around the world from industry, trying to promote of Quebec at Montreal. Given her extensive background our products. We are there with them, supporting them. in conducting fi nancial audits, performance audits and At the end of the day, we want the same thing. We want investigations, she is well qualifi ed to lead the B.C. Offi ce a strong agricultural community right here in British of the Auditor General. Columbia on good agricultural land to make sure that Ms. Bellringer also brings other relevant experience to we have food for generations to come. We are investing this position. She previously served as the city auditor for money into the program, we are investing our time, and the city of Winnipeg and has held management positions we are introducing legislation that will assist us in get- with KPMG and with MediaOne International in Poland. ting there. [1455] She's also a former director of private funding at the [End of question period.] University of Manitoba and has served on numerous boards for business, charitable and arts organizations. Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will now She's currently serving on the board of the International receive three reports. Federation of Accountants. Given her impressive experience and credentials, I'm Reports from Committees confi dent that Ms. Bellringer will prove to be an excellent Auditor General for the province of British Columbia. J. Yap: Madame Speaker, I have the honour to present In closing, I'd like to extend my sincere appreciation to the report of the Special Committee to Appoint an the Deputy Chair, the member for Burnaby–Deer Lake, Auditor General. along with all committee members for their hard work I move that the report be taken as read and received. and dedication over the past ten months. Th e committee considered some very excellent and qualifi ed applicants Motion approved. during the search process, and in the end, we were able to unanimously recommend the candidate for appointment. J. Yap: I ask leave of the House to move a motion to On behalf of the committee, I'd like to further express adopt the report. thanks to everyone who participated in the process, in- cluding the many excellent applicants we considered. Leave granted. As well, I'd like to acknowledge Mr. Russ Jones, who is also in the gallery with us today, who has served in the J. Yap: I move that the report be adopted. role of acting Auditor General since March of 2013. Mr. Jones took over the position during a time of transition Motion approved. for the offi ce, and he carried out his duties with profes- sionalism and dedication. On behalf of all members of J. Yap: I ask leave of the House to move a further mo- the Legislative Assembly, we express our sincere appre- tion to appoint Carol Bellringer as Auditor General of ciation and gratitude. British Columbia. K. Corrigan: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to Leave granted. also rise and welcome Carol Bellringer — hopefully, if it's approved — to the position of Auditor General of Motions Without Notice British Columbia. I was struck, during the interview process and the APPOINTMENT OF AUDITOR GENERAL complete process, by how well she was regarded by all MLAs on both sides of the House in Manitoba; how well J. Yap: I move that: she was regarded by those that she worked for, those that she worked with and those that worked for her as well; [Pursuant to the Auditor General Act, (SBC 2003, c.2), Carol Bellringer be appointed as Auditor General of British Columbia, and how well regarded she was by other Auditors General for one 8 year term commencing on September 15, 2014.] across the country. She has private sector and public sec- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4325

tor experience. She was a leader in the profession. Jones and his fi ne work with his team. Of course, at the end of the day, it also has to be a [1500] unanimous decision, and it was a unanimous decision We've had some great support from our staff , Kate by the committee. I am very confi dent in joining the Ryan-Lloyd and Ron Wall, who have also provided great Chair of the committee in saying that we have made a service to us; of course, the offi ce of the comptroller; and very good choice and that we will be well-served. So I the many members of the committee. am very happy to welcome Carol. I'd like to just acknowledge the fi ne work that the com- I also want to add my appreciation to Russ Jones. I mittee is doing to make British Columbia government have been on the Public Accounts Committee for many work better for its citizens. years and have seen Russ for many years doing a won- derful job, both as Deputy Auditor General and now as Motion approved. acting Auditor General. He has served us very well over this year of transition and, I'm sure, will continue to of- J. Th ornthwaite: I have the honour to present the fi rst fer a lot to the offi ce. report of the Select Standing Committee on Children and Th ank you very much to everybody who served on the Youth for the fi rst session of the 40th parliament. committee, and welcome, Carol. I move that the report be taken as read and received.

Motion approved. Motion approved.

Reports from Committees J. Th ornthwaite: I ask leave of the House to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report. B. Ralston: I have the honour to present the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Public Leave granted. Accounts for the second session of the 40th parliament. Th e report summarizes the committee's activities in this J. Th ornthwaite: I would like to make a few comments session of parliament. before I move that the report be adopted. I move that the report be taken as read and received. This report summarizes committee activities from November 2012 to December 2013. Th e reporting period Motion approved. included part of the fourth session of the 39th parliament, under the previous committee membership. Committee B. Ralston: I ask leave of the House to move a motion activities in all of the fi rst session of the 40th parliament to adopt the report. are also covered in this report. During this time the committee reviewed eight re- Leave granted. ports by the Representative for Children and Youth. We also met with offi cials from the Ministry of Children B. Ralston: I move that the report be adopted. In so and Family Development to receive updates regarding doing, I would like to make some very brief comments. their work to implement recommendations of the repre- Th e report summarizes the committee's activities in sentative. the last session. In that period the committee reviewed Th is report also mentions a special committee project ten reports of the Auditor General and approved the underway to examine youth mental health. Th e commit- Auditor General's annual workplan. I'd also like to thank tee will be holding three meetings this June to hear from all committee members for their contribution to the work stakeholders, experts, youth and their families. Th e com- of the committee, and I would also want to acknowledge mittee is also inviting written submissions through our the assistance provided by the offices of the Auditor website, starting today. General and the comptroller general. I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the At this point, I would also like to welcome the newly previous Chair, the former member for West Vancouver– appointed Auditor General, Carol Bellringer, and look Sea to Sky, Joan McIntyre, who served on the committee forward, with other members of the committee, to work- for several years. I'd also like to pass on my thanks to the ing with her in the future. current Deputy Chair, the member for Victoria–Beacon I would also, again, like to join the comments that have Hill. We've had a very positive working relationship. I been made about Russ Jones and thank him for his time look forward to working with her and all my committee as acting Auditor General. members in the future. In closing, I'd like to acknowledge the Representative S. Sullivan: As the Deputy Chair, I'd like to add to the for Children and Youth and her staff, as well as the words of the Chair. First of all, I'd like to thank the Chair Ministry of Children and Family Development and for his capable leadership. I'd like to acknowledge Russ our Clerk, Kate Ryan-Lloyd. On behalf of the commit- 4326 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

tee members, we thank you for the important work that re-employment to current employees at much lower you do. wages and lower benefits. They are petitioning govern- With that, I move adoption of the report. ment to act now to provide a fair and equitable fund- ing system on Vancouver Island that will allow for the C. James: I also would like to express my apprecia- continuity of care that our seniors require and deserve. tion, fi rst to the Chair of our committee, the member for North Vancouver–Seymour. I would concur that we've D. Donaldson: I rise to present a petition from the had a very good working relationship. We've had an residents of Stewart, who were without power for many opportunity to bring forward some very diffi cult work days in a row this winter, creating great hardships, with around the committee and had the chance to be able to the temperature being as cold as it was and burning diesel. work through those reports. Th ey're asking that B.C. Hydro provide their commun- I'd just like to emphasize the mention that the Chair of our committee raised around youth mental health. ity with a looping — what's called islanding capability We will have an opportunity to be able to receive writ- — between themselves and the Long Lake hydro station, ten submissions around the issue of youth mental health which sits close by. in our province. It's signed by almost 300 residents. Stewart has only I believe this is an opportunity for members of the about 500 residents, so we're talking about a pretty big Legislature, all members of the Legislature, to be able to uptake on this petition. let people in your community know that they have the opportunity to put in written submissions. You have the G. Heyman: I rise to table a petition with over 600 sig- chance to be able to express that to groups, organizations, natures of people who are committed to saving the Pine parents and youth themselves. I think the process will be Free Clinic. Th ey note that Metro Vancouver requires richer by making sure that we hear all the voices in the continued uninterrupted operation of a dedicated youth community. I would encourage all members to make sure health clinic for young people under the age of 25, and that you take the opportunity to pass that message on in they call on the members of this House to affi rm our sup- your communities. port for the continued operation of a dedicated youth Finally, I just want to express my appreciation to all the clinic in Metro Vancouver for another 40 years. committee members. As I said, we have had some very diffi cult work and some very diffi cult reports come for- Madame Speaker: Th e best for last — Powell River– ward, and I have seen around our committee a very re- spectful conversation and very thoughtful conversation Sunshine Coast. on very diffi cult issues. I'm sure I speak for all members when I say that the hope of our committee is that we see N. Simons: Th ank you very much, Madame Speaker. fewer reports and fewer incidents and fewer challenges I appreciate that. come forward in the future around our committee. I have a petition here from about 6,936 individuals from throughout British Columbia asking the govern- Motion approved. ment to…. Th ey respectfully request the government take urgent action to halt the commercial introduction of the Tabling Documents genetically modifi ed apple in British Columbia.

Hon. S. Bond: Today I want to table the WorkSafe B.C. Orders of the Day 2013 annual report and 2014-2016 service plan. Hon. M. de Jong: Two things. I didn't want to inter- Petitions rupt the vigorous debate taking place during question period, but I wonder — I say this not wishing to point D. Eby: I rise to table a petition with over 600 names fi ngers at anyone; maybe both sides — if the Chair might and signatures asking the government to support the wish to send a reminder to all members about Standing Pine Free Clinic and require continued uninterrupted Order 47A, particularly, on page 141, the reference to oral operation of a dedicated youth health clinic for people under the age of 25 in Metro Vancouver. questions and the anticipation rule re bills. All members [1505] might fi nd that a helpful reminder. Beyond that, in terms of the orders of the day, continu- D. Routley: I present a petition from hundreds of ing second reading, in this chamber, on Bill 24. In Section Nanaimo region constituents who are determined to A, Committee of Supply, the Ministry of Health estimates; see a funding model for long-term care for seniors and in Section C, estimates beginning with the Ministry that does not force contracting out or the offering of of Finance and, thereaft er, the Offi ce of the Premier. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4327

Second Reading of Bills made me suggest that she not actually retire from pol- itics, considering the amount of passion and retained BILL 24 — AGRICULTURAL LAND knowledge that she has for this work. Joan worked for COMMISSION AMENDMENT ACT, 2014 the Agricultural Land Commission in its formative years (continued) in the '70s, when I was born. I think the ALR came into eff ect the year before I was born. I lived in Ontario, so [D. Horne in the chair.] it wasn't until I was an adult that I actually understood what the ALR or the ALC was about. On the amendment (continued). We know that she was a former MLA, Speaker and Minister of Environment, Lands and Parks. She con- J. Rice: I'm pleased to rise again today, to continue on tinues to work out of the Bella Coola Valley in a small from yesterday in the debate on the motion that Bill 24 community in Tweedsmuir Park, where she continues to not be read a second time now but that the subject matter do work as a land use consultant. be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Finance I fi nd that Joan's words in an article…. Actually, it was and Government Services and, further, that the commit- an opinion piece that she wrote in the Times Colonist tee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear before it in early April. I really love her choice of words, because to assist in its deliberations. they really simplify this issue for the general public and [1510] for younger generations — I want to say, such as myself; I think referring this bill to the Finance Committee is I realize I can't keep saying that as I push towards 40 the perfect committee, considering the amount of travel, this year — people of my generation and younger who which I've witnessed in my fi rst year as MLA, that the weren't necessarily around during the ALR and ALC Select Standing Committee on Finance certainly has — formative years. I don't know if endured is the word — participated in. It really clearly explains the importance of this and Yesterday I was talking about the importance of re- some of the potential threats that we have by not actually ferring this important bill to a committee such as the doing the due diligence of giving this proper consulta- Standing Committee on Finance because of the import- tion. Th is is an op-ed that Joan submitted in early April. ance of maintaining democracy in our province. I was "When we opened the doors of the fi rst Agricultural Land speaking about my fi rst year as an MLA and, previously, Commission offi ce in 1973, there was a green carpet and as a city councillor. One of the reasons I was involved dozens of telephones, hundreds of maps and little else." was my witnessing of the disengagement of our public in Actually, I had dinner with Joan and Gary Runka early civic politics and politics in general and just the general aft er I was elected this year. Th ey so vividly described the negative attitude that people feel that their voices aren't scene to me, with rolls of maps everywhere, sitting on the being heard or their vote doesn't matter. fl oor, diligently working away to form the ALC. I think a bill of this magnitude…. Some things, such [1515] as the ALR and the ALC, are ingrained in the hearts and She continues on: minds of British Columbians as such a valuable piece "Over the next 18 months the fi ve-member commission and a of legislation. It's prided upon, and it's looked at inter- small staff oversaw the establishment of the original agricultural nationally as a huge accomplishment and achievement. land reserve boundaries, based on the best science available, re- lated to climate and capability of the land to produce a range of Again, I cannot stress how important I think public con- agricultural crops. sultation is on Bill 24. "It was an inclusive process. More than 300 public meetings I also just spoke about the defi nition of public consul- were held throughout the province, and each of the 28 regional tation and reminded the House of what that looks like districts submitted their own draft ALR plans. A general man- ager who was a professional agrologist and commissioners who or what that doesn't look like. I think I can safely say were well respected in their fi elds of expertise ensured that ALR that the way that we have gone about quickly passing boundaries refl ected both the provincial perspective and regional this bill — tomorrow, I believe — is an example of poor agricultural diff erences. public consultation, and it certainly demonstrates a lack "From the outset, it was recognized we also needed to protect of democracy. the integrity of farm communities. Th at is why small pockets of non-agricultural land, whose development could negatively aff ect I have the honour of having in my con- farming, were included within the ALR. So began what remains, at stituency. She's been a great resource to me. I've learned least until now, the most successful agricultural land preservation so much from Joan. I only met her recently passed part- program in North America." ner, Gary Runka, once, but I must stress that I was so If I may add, I think we can go beyond the boundaries impressed with the amount of knowledge and passion of North America. they had for their work — not only as land use consult- "It has not been a smooth ride. ALR boundary reviews began ants presently, but in their previous work developing the almost immediately and continue, oft en in cooperation with lo- cal and regional governments. Subdivision, non-farm use and ALR and the ALC. exclusion applications came pouring in, each of which has been To this day, Joan's unwavering dedication to the ALR decided on its own merits. From time to time, successful provincial 4328 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

governments have interfered with the independent Agricultural the reasons I ran and one of the reasons I work so hard Land Commission. to engage the younger generation as an MLA: because "In recent years, however, the ALC has reset its course, and in so many younger voters talk about the fact that whether response to government direction and an Auditor General's report, has modernized and demonstrated creative fl exibility within its it's this or other legislation or other policies at any level primary mandate to preserve farmland. of government, they are revolving around either election "Into this environment, government has now thrown Bill 24, the cycles or just short-term gain, and their futures are at risk. Agricultural Land Commission Amendment Act, which puts this She talks about climate change, and that is defi nitely 40-year success story at risk. Th e proposed two-zone concept of- fends the principles of fairness and consistency. Where is the con- an issue that's important to me and an issue important to sistency in awarding some of B.C. farmers more ALR protection younger generations. Th e threat to agricultural land be- than others? Moreover, with relaxed criteria in zone 2, why would cause of climate change demonstrates to me now more hundreds of landowners who have had their application refused than ever that we need to actually put more protections and had to accept that, not now come back for reconsideration? in place, not less, and not put important farmland at risk. "How does eliminating a provincial commission in favour of six regional panels meet government's own test of 'eff ective and Before I go on, I have two other articles I really want effi cient'? Th e provincial ALR was established precisely because to read into the record. Th e other actually quotes Joan regional authorities could not be relied upon to eff ectively protect Sawicki once again here. Many people are tapping into farmland from non-farm development. Operating six panels will her vast knowledge and expertise. surely be less effi cient and more costly than funding one provin- cial commission. This was written a couple of days ago in the Tyee, "Yes, farmers have a legitimate complaint. Th e farmer support "Agriculture Changes Th reaten $130 Million Farmers systems that were put in place as part of the social contract to Market Sector." Actually, this is a letter, if I'm not mis- preserve the land have long since been eliminated. Th is same taken. government that has introduced Bill 24 has also cut the budget "Th e provincial government is threatening a rapidly growing sec- of the Ministry of Agriculture to be among the lowest per capita tor of the economy with its proposed changes to the agricultural in Canada. land reserve, warns an open letter from the B.C. Association of "By defi nition, 'zoning' restricts individual action for the greater Farmers Markets. common good. Th e last thing most dedicated farmers want to "'B.C.'s farmers markets work tirelessly in all corners of the do is sacrifi ce the land that is the source of their livelihood. It is province to strengthen local economies and provide British therefore not surprising that, traditionally, only about 5 percent of Columbians with fresh, healthy, local agricultural products,' wrote ALC applications have come from farmers. Jon Bell, the president of BCAFM, on behalf of the organization's "Unlike other kinds of zoning, the ALR was always envisioned board of directors in a letter to…the Minister of Agriculture. as a permanent zone, not a zone of convenience. Its vision is long "In 2012 such markets had $113 million in direct sales, an in- term, to keep the options open for future food production. Eighty- crease of 147 percent from $46 million in 2006, it said. 'Our ability fi ve percent of our best agricultural lands are within the proposed to continue to deliver these benefi ts into the future, however, is zone 2, where they will be less protected. tied directly to the availability of agricultural land throughout the "Bill 24 is shortsighted and irresponsible. Th e NDP government province,' the May 26 letter said. 'Our member farmers markets made a courageous decision in 1973. Now, more than ever, with in the north and Interior specifi cally have expressed concern that population growth, loss of farmlands elsewhere, increased trans- Bill 24 will directly threaten their regionally focused agricultural portation costs and the urgent challenge of climate change, we initiatives and thereby threaten the very viability of farmers mar- need to stay the course. Th us far, government has off ered no core kets in their area.' review analysis that demonstrates the ALR is broken and no cred- "Th e government's legislation, which is expected to pass this ible explanation of how Bill 24 will fi x that, fi x what is perceived week, splits the province into two zones and requires social and to be broken. economic considerations to be given greater weight in decisions [1520] about what land is protected in the ALR in the north, Interior and "From government's own statements, it is clear they do not Kootenay regions. It would also create regional panels to make understand the scientifi c basis of the ALR, and they have not done initial decisions on applications to remove land from the ALR. their homework on potential negative impacts of their actions "Th e BCAFM represents 125 farmers markets and 1,000 small- upon farmers and farm communities. Th ey should pull back Bill scale farmers who sell at markets, but their views and opposition 24 and rethink. to the bill have not been considered, said the letter, which asks "If they do not, the only conclusion one can reach is that far the government not to pass the bill and to consult with the wider from supporting farming in B.C., Bill 24 is a deliberate attempt agricultural community. to reduce the ALR to chaos. In that case, British Columbians who "'Th e proposed changes in Bill 24 not only threaten the viability have consistently expressed their understanding and clear support of farmers markets; they threaten the economic and social bene- for the ALR need to sit up and take notice." fi ts that markets deliver to the communities they support,' it said. Her bio here says that Joan Sawicki worked for the "Regional panels were used between 2002 and 2010 but were Agricultural Land Commission during its formative 'considered less eff ective than the current centralized administra- tion and vetting of all ALR applications by the ALC, which ensures years from 1973 to 1981; is a former MLA, Speaker and strong and consistent centralized authority,' it said. Minister of the Environment, Lands and Parks; and is [1525] currently a land use consultant living in Stuie in the Bella "'In an era of climate change, signifi cant urban expansion, con- Coola Valley. cerns about local food supply, food safety and sustainability, the I can really appreciate this opinion piece written by B.C. government and the Agricultural Land Commission must Joan. I think she hits it bang on when she says that Bill look at ways to encourage farming,' the letter said. 'Permitting non- agricultural industrial activities on ALR land will only fragment 24 is shortsighted and irresponsible and when she speaks and degrade remaining viable land, leading to greater challenges about the short term versus the long term. Th is is one of for farmers in accessing agricultural land.'" Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4329

Regardless of your opinion on Bill 24, a stakeholder We could be supporting research and training in green that is going to be directly impacted by this is actually technology. In addition to food, all cities permanently calling for a proper consultation. Th ey're calling for time require signifi cant natural resources to meet their raw to have a conversation about such important legislation. energy needs. However, alternative technologies — in- I think that's what this proposed amendment is just ask- cluding solar cells, rooft op wind turbines, ground-source ing for — to give it the due diligence it needs. heat pumps and power plants fueled by domestic rub- It can't be too cumbersome to include it with the Select bish — could see future cities becoming at least partly Standing Committee on Finance's work. Th ey travel all energy-suffi cient. over the province, even to many remote and rural com- [1530] munities. It's a perfect opportunity to have the public Micropower generation may even extend to piezoelec- consultation that is much needed for this bill and is re- tric paving slabs to generate electricity from our footsteps, quested by so many people. as well as hydraulic plates on road surfaces that would One other thing I wanted to talk about was just some generate power as vehicles drive over them. I'm not an of the ideas that you could have in a proper consultation, expert on these technologies, but again, I'm just encour- some of the considerations that we're missing out on aging the conversation. by avoiding a consultation process. For example, we're In addition to producing some of their own food and missing out on a dialogue about initiatives like the Local power, future cities would also have to use fresh water Food Act supported by farmers and experts, whose pur- far more effi ciently. In part, this is because treating and pose is to increase farming in the ALR for the benefi t of transporting fresh water is energy-intensive. However, our economy and environment. half of the world's population now lives in countries B.C. farmers for two decades have faced unfair compe- where the water table is falling. Future cities, therefore, tition from heavily subsidized imports while both federal need to capture and recycle water whenever possible. and provincial governments have looked the other way. In 1973, the year before I was born, when it was con- Local food production and consumption signifi cantly re- sidered to be the most progressive legislation of its kind duces energy required for food transportation and lowers in North America, it was intended to permanently pro- crop loss associated with shipping and storage. In a con- tect valuable agricultural land, which is among the most trolled environment it can even require less use of pesti- fertile soil in the country, from being lost. Despite having cides. Curbing imports and growing local consumption been in existence for nearly 40 years, however, the ALR — those are the kinds of steps this government could be continues to be threatened by urbanization and the land looking at taking. development industry. Another example: we could be reviewing our export Th e ALR has widespread popularity among British market. Food growers, harvesters and producers in Columbian voters. Defenders of the ALR have been dis- British Columbia have successfully established a market tressed in recent years at what they see as a weakening for traditional and innovative food products in North of the policy by the designation of golf courses as agri- America and Europe. At the same time, we are rapidly cultural land and the removal of ALR-protected lands increasing exports to growing markets in China, South for residential, commercial and industrial development. Korea and India. Sending this bill to the Select Standing Committee on Our agrifoods industry, including seafoods, already Finance would help alleviate this concern. It would al- exports $2.4 billion to 140 countries worldwide. Buyers low the government to attempt to gain a social licence around the world recognize us for our high-quality food for Bill 24. products and strict safety standards. With a strong repu- tation for quality produce and a strategic location on Deputy Speaker: Th e Chair has been allowing certain- the west coast of Canada, agrifood producers in British ly far-reaching discretion. I just remind people that we're Columbia are in a position to continue profi ting in a currently debating the amendment to the bill. Th at's to growing global market. refer it to a committee. Agrifoods export opportunities exist around the world, and some key markets have the potential for increased K. Corrigan: I do appreciate the Chair exercising some purchases from our exporters. In 2011, 87 percent, $1.3 discretion and allowing our passions to run wild in this billion of the total value of our agriculture exports, went House, but I will try to remember that we are talking to these top fi ve markets: United States, Japan, South about a referral motion in this case. Korea, China and Taiwan. Every once in a while bills come before this House that I'm not proposing that I have all the answers to these do matter a lot to the members and that do bring passions particular ideas. I'm just sort of trying to make a con- forward. Th ere are a lot of bills that come to this House tribution on potential important conversations that we that we support. Most bills that come to this House we could be having by having a proper consultation on Bill support, at least to some extent. Th ere are some bills that 24. come to this House that we don't support. Th ere are some 4330 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

that are miscellaneous bills that perhaps are changing the are stakeholders or experts — people who are farmers, wording — slight wording — for legal reasons. people who live in urban areas, people who live in rural But every once in a while a bill comes that would areas, academics, all manner of people — have been con- fundamentally change some of the things that we do in tacting us in great numbers. I've received many, many this province and things that we hold dear. Th is is one communications to my offi ce from people who are con- of those bills. I would remind those that are not aware cerned about the dismantling of the ALR and express- that might be hearing this that what Bill 24 did was, es- ing deep concern, coming from a variety of perspectives. sentially, from our perspective, dismantle or at least par- A referral to the select standing committee of the tially dismantle the agricultural land reserve, which has House would be the perfect place, I would submit, for a done what it was designed to do since it was brought in, further discussion, because obviously, the people of this in 1973. Th at is — and this is a fundamental thing — it province are not happy with the lack of consultation that was designed to protect farmland in this province. has happened to date. We have a province that has a lot of pressure on the Th e thing to remember is that a referral to the com- farmland in some areas, particularly areas like the Lower mittee does not kill the bill. It simply is a referral. Th e bill Mainland, where I live. Th ere's great pressure, and if the would remain on the order paper for second reading, but agricultural land reserve had not been put in place in it wouldn't be proceeded with until the standing com- 1973, the Lower Mainland would have been a very diff er- mittee has considered and reported on the matter. I'm ent place and we would not have had, I believe, the ability not sure how long that would be, but my understand- to produce the food that we do now. ing would be that there could be very lengthy commit- It was a visionary thing to do. It was a visionary thing tee hearings. to do 40 years ago, and it is a bill that governments of all I think about what the committee hearings are like parties, when they've been in power, have supported for now for the Select Standing Committee on Finance. I the last 40-plus years. Everybody has recognized the im- think it's one of the two fi nest, perhaps, committees in the portance of having a reserve of land in our province that Legislature — another fi ne one being the Public Accounts is protected for farming. Committee, which I sat on for many months. [1535] The purpose of the Select Standing Committee on Certainly, the legislation recognized that there are ap- Finance is to consult with people, and I've got to say that propriate times that land should be able to be removed, that committee has done an excellent, excellent job. It is and I think for the most part that has worked as well. made up by all parties in this Legislature, or both parties But it is a piece of legislation which is very dear to very in the Legislature. It has several members on it and, in many people. fact, in the fall goes around the province, travels around When you have something that has mattered that the province — sometimes in small airplanes in snow much and has been such an important piece of legisla- and rain and so on. tion, such an important piece in our province…. When But I've got to give a lot of credit to the people that sit there is a bill that makes drastic changes and removes 90 on that committee and the committee work itself, be- percent of the land of this province from the protections cause it goes all around the province, and it listens to that have previously been there in terms of protecting people. It listens to people, and people can make sub- farmland and changes it very significantly and gives missions, either written submissions or in-person sub- equal weight to things like oil and gas, certain types of missions. Th ey do it in the Lower Mainland. Th ey go development and economic concerns…. When they all to Prince George. I believe they've gone to the north, to have equal weight in 90 percent of our province, then Terrace, the Kootenays and so on. Th ey really listen and when that happens, I would submit, it has to be done then create a very thoughtful report with a lot of input very carefully. that informs the deliberations about the budget. Th at is why we are asking that this bill be referred to the [1540] Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Now, I'm not sure how much it actually makes a dif- Services under Standing Order 83. Th e purpose of a re- ference, but I think it educates members on both sides of ferral. When something is referred to a select standing the House as to the concerns and creates a deeper under- committee, in this case the Finance Committee, accord- standing that is good for this place as a whole in terms of ing to Parliamentary Practice, it is for the purpose of ob- understanding the province and what matters to people. taining an opinion or observations. It is for getting more I think it would be a perfect place, because we haven't information, to hear from stakeholders, to hear from had the deliberations about this bill. We haven't had the people around the province that they care, but doing it in consultation, and people are starving for that consulta- a formal way so that that information is recorded. tion. We know that people do want to speak out on this. I've mentioned another committee, the one that I have We know that many people who are ordinary citizens sat on for many years, the Public Accounts Committee. who care deeply about the agricultural land reserve or Th e Public Accounts Committee receives the reports of Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4331

the Auditor General and also looks at the audits of the press release, but that seems to have been the end of it. fi nancial statements of the province. Th at committee, as I know that members from this side of the House who well, receives a lot of good information. were on the committee were not aware of the fact, were At committees like Finance and Public Accounts, it's not made aware. an opportunity to enrich the knowledge and enrich the [1545] base of understanding from which all members, both Th ere was no information out there indicating that the sides of the House, can make a decision on. I think it Select Standing Committee on Finance was, in fact, sup- would be the perfect place to refer Bill 24. As I said ear- posed to be the repository of submissions on the agricul- lier, it would not kill the bill, but it simply would allow tural land reserve and other matters related to the core for consultation. review, and it was very clear that the Agricultural Land Now, apart from the fact that many of us are passionate Commission was part of the core review. and many British Columbians are passionate and feel like The Chair of the Committee on Finance and they have not been heard on this bill, there is a particu- Government Services, the member for Penticton, had lar issue of credibility. Frankly, I think the government no idea consultation on the core review was part of his has lost credibility for a number of reasons, on this bill, committee's mandate or terms of reference. and I think it's important to all of us in this House that It was very unfortunate that that actually hadn't been that credibility be restored for the sake of the credibility advertised more clearly. I recall that there did end up be- of the institution itself. ing, last minute — I think one day's warning…. It was fi g- Why do I say that? Well, for the fi rst reason, I guess…. ured out at some point along the way that it was supposed First of all, this legislation was brought in less than a to be the place where people made submissions on core year aft er the last election. But there was no mention of review and, therefore, on the agricultural land reserve. the agricultural land reserve in the 2013 Liberal election Th ere was, with one day's notice, a very thoughtful sub- platform. In fact, in May of 2013, in a questionnaire from mission to that, but I don't know that there was any other, Country Life in B.C. magazine, the B.C. Liberal Party was because I don't believe that people were aware of that. asked if it would "work with the ALC" — in other words, To me, that's strike No. 2 in terms of credibility. Th e the Agricultural Land Commission — "to ensure that vehicle for which there was supposed to be consultation agricultural land continues to be available for agriculture and a chance to submit ideas and thoughts about the and not get used for port, dam, transportation, industrial agricultural land reserve — the place that that was sup- and residential development." posed to happen…. Nobody was aware of that, including Th e Liberal Party's response was: "Yes." It was going to the Chair of the committee himself. So a bit of strike 2 in do those things. And it was very clear that it not be used terms of credibility. for port, dam, transportation, industrial and residential Th ere are more than three strikes, actually, in this case development, which are exactly the kinds of considera- in terms of credibility of this government. In March the tions that will now, under Bill 24, be of equal value in minister, the member from East Kootenays, acknow- considering whether or not land stays in the agricultural ledged…. He said: "I know that we could have done a bet- land reserve or may be excluded. ter job of consultations, and I take my mea culpa." Th at Th ere's strike 1 against the credibility of the Liberals, was in the Vancouver Sun on March 28, 2014. Th e way in terms of this bill. Th ey said they were not going to do that remark was delivered — "and I take my mea culpa" this. Less than a year later, they did do it. — sounds, frankly, dismissive. It sounds to me like there Another concern about the credibility with regard to really was no intention to consult in any way whatsoever. this bill is that the member for Kootenay East had prom- But the greatest blow to credibility, the fi nal blow to ised that there would be consultation on changes to the credibility that I've most recently heard and another very ALR as part of the core review. I quote from a news re- strong reason why I think it is very important in order lease, September 24, 2013. Th e Minister of Energy and to restore the credibility, the integrity and the stature of Mines and the Minister Responsible for Core Review said: this place, this Legislature, is the fact that today we are "Th e public will have an opportunity to provide input to aware from a story in the Globe and Mail that there were core review as part of the…Committee on Finance and e-mails that went back and forth between the member for Government Services'…budget consultations." Kootenay East and other Liberal MLAs in the summer Th e place was supposed to be then, was supposed to of 2012 that he and others were absolutely determined be before the Committee on Finance and Government to have changes to the ALR that would allow more non- Services' budget consultation — in other words, the select farm use of agricultural lands — essentially, the changes standing committee that we are now asking that there be that would end up dismantling or potentially dismantling a referral of Bill 24 to. the agricultural land reserve. Th at sounds like another opportunity, that there would Of course, the member for Kootenay East is the be consultation on the agricultural land reserve — the Minister for Core Review and the architect of the legis- ALR — and the commission. Th at may have been in a lation that is dismantling the ALR. Another member 4332 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

that was involved in that string of e-mails became the Frankly, it has been a real learning curve. I've had a vis- Agriculture Minister. Th ese two ministers made it very ceral love of the agricultural land reserve, the principles clear through their correspondence that the minister of the reserve, over many years, as I think many other and others in the B.C. Liberal caucus — I'm quoting people have, but I've had to really do my homework. I've from the article — "were pressing the Agricultural Land had a lot of people contacting me to help me to do my Commission chair, Richard Bullock, to approve changes homework and teaching me about the agricultural land to protected farmland that would 'muster up some sup- reserve. I've done a fair amount of reading as well. It has port for our team.'" convinced me that we have not had all the facts before Th ere were references in there as well to personal pres- this House. sure on the chair of the Agricultural Land Commission, We have had academics, many academics, stating Mr. Bullock, in order to change boundaries. Th ere are openly, with open letters and so on, that this is not a good references to the fact that it needed to be easier — I'm thing for British Columbia. We've had ranchers, we've paraphrasing — to remove land from the agricultural had farmers, and we've had citizens who live in urban land reserve. and rural areas. [1550] I live in the community of Burnaby. It is not a particu- When you have two people who then, for whatever rea- larly rural area, but I appreciate that we have a farmers son…. Presumably, the Premier of this province, when market. I think that many people in urban areas have had she put those two people in the key positions of Minister a greater appreciation of farming and local food. Th at's for Core Review and Agriculture Minister, surely was been a trend over the last few years. I think when you aware of the fact that these were two advocates for dis- consider…. I think people are becoming more aware of mantling of the agricultural land reserve. the fact that we, perhaps, are in danger, that we are in un- What that says to me is that not only do we have two certain times, when you consider the drought of the last key people that were involved and were therefore respon- couple years that has become particularly severe this year, sible in the redesign and dismantling of the agricultural with farmers not having enough water to be able to bring land reserve, but we also have a government, in the lead- their crops to market. er of that government, that was condoning and, in fact, [1555] encouraging and signalling that the people who wanted When you have a threat to the supply of food, when to dismantle were going to be put in the positions of au- you have global warming, when you have ice shelves thority to do exactly that. breaking up in Antarctica, all of these things I think Th at, to me, creates a series of steps and evidence that would…. In a prudent jurisdiction it would be the time indicate that it was this government's intention and the to be very careful about preserving the assets that you intention of individuals who had power within this gov- have in terms of production. ernment all along to dismantle the ALR, despite any It's an economy, as well as the food. So it is an economy promises that were made that there would be consulta- that it serves as well. tion. What happened was that there was no opportunity While I do believe that some development…. Th ere for that information, that input, to come. could be short-term gain. Frankly, this is a government Th e present Minister of Agriculture, aft er he became that seems to thrive on short-term gains, selling off the Minister of Agriculture, said that there would be provincial assets and selling off land that could be use- consultation, promised that there would be consulta- ful without really thinking about the best use of the land, tion. One day it was said that there would be consulta- but saying: "For this year we want to get in $150 million tion, and then the next day it was contradicted by the or $200 million, and to heck with the future." I certainly member for Kootenay East, of course, the Minister for have good examples of that in my community. Core Review, who essentially said that there weren't go- So it's short term, short-term thinking. When we ing to be any changes and that, really, the bill would go have something as important as the agricultural land through. So it was a done deal. Th ere was no consulta- reserve, I don't think we need short-term thinking. We tion. It was a done deal. need long-term thinking. Referring Bill 24 to the Finance What we have seen over the past couple of months is Committee, I think, would allow us to take a step in the a reaction from the people of British Columbia. It makes direction of more long-term thinking. it very clear to me, I believe, that people are not happy. I was talking a minute ago about farmers markets. Whether or not in the end, aft er an appropriate consul- Th at's a group of people, those that bring their products tation, government would make the decision to go for- to farm markets, as in my community that I love to at- ward with the bill as it is, I don't know, but at least we tend…. We just recently opened our farmers market, and would have had a chance to test that and to hear from I'll be attending that regularly in the summer, as I always people and, as I've said with regard to other committees, do. Th ose are individuals that should have an opportun- enrich the knowledge that members from both sides of ity to be able to speak about this bill. the House have about the issue. I think that part of the problem is that it takes a long Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4333

time for the general public out there — a lot of coverage created that would discriminate between regions, "pot- and a lot of people's voices being added to the mix be- entially constraining their ability to achieve and sustain fore many people realize that there is an issue. I would agricultural self-suffi ciency and economic development." say that this is one where it is important enough that It said: "Therefore be it resolved that the LMLGA" — this we should be taking some time to make sure that more was being sent to the Lower Mainland Local Government Association — "send a letter to the Union of B.C. Municipalities, people are aware of it. the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Community, Sport I know — as I've said earlier, I've had many, many e- and Cultural Development, the Premier and the Leader of the mails and letters coming to my offi ce, or people calling Offi cial Opposition, with copies to all B.C. local governments, and so on — that it is a growing concern. Now, perhaps stating our opposition to the proposed alteration to the agricul- tural land reserve." that's exactly what the government wants to avoid: any I see I'm getting near the end here. I just want to fi nally kind of discussion. But I think that when you consider read one e-mail that I received in my constituency. It's how important this bill is and the impact of the destruc- very simple, and it's short. It was sent, actually, to Christy tion of the agricultural land reserve…. Th e fact that it Clark; I was copied. It was from Ruth Lea Taylor. It says: might be a little bit uncomfortable or may make gov- "I'm gravely concerned…." ernment rethink — well, that's just too bad, because it's Oh, I apologize again. When it's in front of me…. "To important. It's important to the people of this province. the Premier." I apologize for that. In my community of Burnaby we actually do try to "I am gravely concerned by Bill 24, the Agricultural Land preserve agricultural land, and we do appreciate the im- Commission Amendment Act. Th is bill proposes fundamental portance. I think people in my community appreciate changes to the ALR that could result in the permanent loss of the importance of having further discussion through a protected B.C. farmland. referral motion. I think they would because, in fact, in "B.C.'s farmers, ranchers and fruit growers have made it clear that they oppose this bill because it is not in their interest. It is being Burnaby…. pushed through with no public consultation with the agricultural I know there was a member from across the way who, community, the Agricultural Land Commission or the people of when I was speaking in second reading, was laughing British Columbia. when I started talking about the importance of agricul- "Th anks to the ALR, British Columbia has maintained a steady number of farms while the rest of Canada has lost about one-third tural land and how it mattered to people in my com- of its farms." munity. Th e comment was: "Well, there's no farmland in Burnaby." In fact, it's not a huge amount, but we do have Deputy Speaker: Th e member from Port Moody. Port 234 hectares of land within the agricultural land reserve Coquitlam. down in the Big Bend district, just down the hill from where I live. Th ey are in the agricultural land reserve, and M. Farnworth: Th ank you, hon. Speaker. I'm rising, we are very proud of that. actually, because I still had 17 minutes from the last time I understand the importance and appreciate the abil- that I was speaking on the motion on Bill 24. You were in ity to be able to go to those farms directly and get virtu- the chair at that time, as I recall. ally all of my produce in the summer. It's a great luxury. I'm also proud…. And here's the small piece that my Deputy Speaker: And I remembered your riding city could do, the city of Burnaby, the small thing that name at that point as well. they could do, because there was no opportunity, really, for any kind of input. Th ere was no formal input before M. Farnworth: I'd like to take the opportunity to con- the bill was brought or during the process. Th ey brought tinue my argument as to why we should refer this to a a resolution in. I'm sure the city of Burnaby, if this was committee. referred to the Select Standing Committee on Finance, It would be a wise course of action to do. It would be would be pleased to be one of the many communities to keeping with the traditions and practices of this House come and make a presentation or a submission. that have occurred in previous years. It would be an op- [1600] portunity for the government to refl ect on this particular Back in April, not too long aft er the bill was introduced, piece of legislation in a way that it hasn't — particular- Burnaby city council passed a resolution in response to ly when we have seen today in the Globe and Mail, for the alteration of the ALR by the provincial government example, a number of e-mails that surfaced, about the saying: attitude of the Minister for Core Review towards the "Whereas the agricultural land reserve was created as a provincial agricultural land reserve and to the approach that should zone for the purpose of preserving agricultural land throughout the province and provided for technically based decision-making be taken. about inclusions and exclusions in the reserve…." I think that would be of concern to members of this It goes on to express concern in the whereases about House, particularly since the public explanation we have the possibility of "development on 90 percent of the land had as to why this particular piece of legislation is im- in the reserve and allowing the minister to set the goals portant is "to protect and promote and to encourage agri- for the reserve" and the fact that there were two zones culture," yet the statements in those e-mails suggested 4334 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

something completely opposite: that somebody who is pect the backbench just to rubber-stamp whatever gov- ideologically opposed to the land reserve wanted and, ernment says. Th ey expect members to be able to stand as said in the e-mails, looked the Premier directly in the up and say: "Here's what's happening in my constituency." eye about this issue and wanted to make sure she under- People understand how a committee system works. Th ey stands the issue. know that it's an opportunity for individual MLAs to be It has nothing to do…. Nowhere in any of those state- able to go out and to work on a particular issue, bring ments was it about: "We can really improve the state of their own particular background, hear from experts and agriculture in British Columbia if we change this legis- make the kind of good public policy that I think all of us lation." No, this was that they've got a long-term bent in this chamber want to see take place. that the minister had in terms of the Agricultural Land All of us in this chamber are here to make British Commission, the chair of the land commission and his Columbia a better place, and to do that means good pub- determination to change the land commission irrevoc- lic policy, public policy based on actual needs, based on ably in the province of British Columbia. the best science and the best expert advice and by listen- I think that that would be of concern to members of ing to people. When you do that, you do get good pub- this House, particularly members of the government, and lic policy. that they would want to avail themselves of the opportun- But to have public policy, as we've seen with this par- ity to fully understand the implications of the legislation ticular piece of legislation, being made on the basis of from the very people who actually work on the land, from a minister's ideological view and his own desire to…. I the very people who are engaged in agriculture. don't know whether it's to please one or two constituents [1605] in the riding or what it is. Not really understanding the Th e best way to do that would, of course, be to hear importance of this piece of legislation to the agricultural from British Columbians in agriculture in as broad a way community — I think, hon. Speaker — is not how public as possible. Th e most eff ective and effi cient way to do that policy in this province should take place. Th e idea that a is through the use of a committee. couple of members can get together…. We have, as I have said, plenty of precedence for that. You read those e-mails, and they say everything you Th e committee can be resourced. It has members not need to know. Th ey say everything you need to know just of the government side but of the offi cial opposition, about how this particular bill came to this House. Th e potentially independents as well, and it would have the idea, reading them, that the Minister for the Core Review resources to travel around the province and to hear ex- is saying, "Th e Premier was in the room, and I looked plicitly from the agricultural community, from com- her right in the eye and said: 'Th is is what we're going munities in general, both in the Lower Mainland and to do,'" and the Premier just acquiesced…. Th e Premier on the Island, in the Kootenays and in the Peace River, just acquiesced. the Interior, the northwest — all over British Columbia We have no idea what the Premier said, why the — about the impact of this legislation. Th e committee Premier didn't say: "You know what? Th ere is a…." Oh, would then be able to come back to this place, to this you know what, hon. Speaker? I think it's important that House, with a report that they would be able to table to in the record we actually…. And I am indebted to my col- the House. league from Surrey-Whalley for…. Th en the government would be able to look at the work that had been done of the committee. Th ey'd be Interjection. able to look at the work that had been done at the com- mittee and go: "Hey, wow. Th ey did some really great M. Farnworth: And he says…. work. Here's what people are really saying. Here's some Exactly. recommendations that they have made in terms of how And it says the following…. we can improve the agricultural land reserve," changes that we might make that would meet with the approval Deputy Speaker: I'm certain the member's going to…. of the community, the agricultural community itself, and address a number of the issues that I laid out last time M. Farnworth: Yes, absolutely. Th is is relating to why I spoke, hon. Speaker — address issues around market- a committee needs to be struck to go out and hear from ing, address issues around security or the ability to ac- the people. Because I think most people would like to cess land. know that this bill came here…. When you see this e- All of those things could be addressed and looked at mail, it says: by a committee, a committee that, if it was given the re- "You may recall a discussion we had in caucus when the pro- sources and allowed to do its job, could do just that. Th at posed changes to your legislation were discussed. Myself and other would be something that would be very positive to this rural MLAs made it abundantly clear that we agreed to support the legislation only with your commitment that the boundary review Legislature. would proceed. Additionally, we made it clear we would not sup- And it's what the public expect. Th e public don't ex- port fee increases until aft er a boundary review. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4335

[1610] Interjection. "Premier Clark was present, and very deliberately I looked her in the eye and made direct reference to the fact that she was present M. Farnworth: He says he will be here. I know that for this discussion." on this side of the House we will have a lot of questions Hon. Speaker, that tells you right there. And then aft er for that minister about issues that we have raised in this this conversation, the minister ends up in cabinet. So the House this past session. We'll be looking to see during question is: is the Premier really concerned about the the ensuing months that the House is not sitting wheth- state of agriculture, or was she just acquiescing? Was she er consultation has taken place on a number of those being bullied by the Minister for Core Review into saying issues and whether or not the minister, in fact, will be yes to whatever it is that the minister wants to do? What back in this House prepared to share the results of those we've seen with this minister is…. consultations, hopefully having undertaken some posi- We have a Minister of Agriculture who says: "No, I'm tive initiatives to make some important changes on those open to consultation. I'm quite happy to hear what people issues that we have been asking him about over the last have to say." We thought: "Great. What an opportunity number of months. for a committee of this House to go out and to hear what But I digress. the agricultural community has to say." Instead, literal- ly not even 24 hours later, the Minister of Agriculture is Deputy Speaker: Yes. shot down by the Minister Responsible for Core Review, who stated in this House publicly that he did not have M. Farnworth: I digress, and I want to bring it back an axe to grind when clearly, the e-mails show that that's to the key point, which is the issue of the committee. I not the case. point to the minister because it is an example of…. Look, I think that in order to restore confi dence in the pro- we are dealing with important public policy issues. Th ey cess, to give the public an understanding of exactly what's don't all have to be dealt with immediately, right now. We taking place, it's important that a committee be estab- have a legislative calendar in place. lished. We are saying the Finance Committee, because, [1615] again, as we saw earlier, the Minister for Core Review We have a break over the summer that aff ords the op- stated that the Finance Committee would be the place portunities for MLAs to get back out into their constitu- to hear issues and concerns around this particular piece encies, their ridings and their regions of the province. of legislation. At the same time it allows committees to go and do their Th e fact is that's not the committee's mandate and work. We're going to have the Finance Committee in the never was the committee's mandate. People could go and fall. It will be out touring the province on dealing with speak to it, but the committee had no real mandate. In fi nancial matters and the upcoming budget for next fi s- fact, it stuck to its mandate, which was the right thing to cal year. At the same time there's nothing to stop it from do, and that's a credit to the Chair of the committee for being charged to also go and listen to agricultural issues doing that. Th at is that we were there to deal with the fi - around Bill 24. nances and the budget process. But if the government would like…. I am quite sure In reality, what the Minister for Core Review should that this side of the House — the independents, as well — have understood…. Th is is the interesting point. Clearly, would be more than willing to entertain an amendment he recognized the value of a committee to get and gather or a change in tack that says: "Look, we think the Finance public information when he told individuals who wanted Committee is going to be really busy this fall. To say to to talk about this issue that they should go to the Finance them that they really should deal with Bill 24 is not some- Committee to do that. It was fi ne for him last summer, thing that we think is fair to that committee." but now it's like: "Well, no, no, no." We wouldn't have a problem with that at all. We would Th e committee didn't get the opportunity to do what not have a problem. We would be quite happy if the he wanted, but what we do have is an opportunity to do government felt that the solution was to constitute the it properly, to actually construct, to charge a committee Standing Committee on Agriculture and have them go of this House to go out and hear the issues around Bill out and listen to the public. But we've heard no such thing 24. We have plenty of time to do that. We could do it over from the government side. We've heard no interest in that the summer, and we are going to be coming back in the from the government members. fall. Th e Premier herself has made that clear. I really do fi nd it hard to imagine that there are not We'll be back for at least six weeks, is my understand- voices on the government back bench who are saying to ing, this fall, which I think is something that all of us in the government: "What's wrong with going out and hear- this House are looking forward to. I know I certainly am. ing what people have to say? What's wrong with going I know my colleague from Surrey-Whalley is. I see the out and talking with people?" minister from Comox chuckling away. I fully expect that I hear the Premier say…. I remember the Premier he will be looking forward to it. once said why we didn't sit so much last time, last year. 4336 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Remember, it was almost 200 days that we didn't sit in Th e amendment that we're speaking to is "that Bill 24 not this place. And the Premier was going: "You know, we be read a second time now but the subject matter be re- don't need to be in Victoria. We should be out talkin' ferred to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and with people." She likes to drop the "g" when she talks Government Services and further, that the committee be sometimes, I've noticed. "We should be talkin' with empowered to invite witnesses to appear before it to as- people. You know, that's what we've got to do. You know, sist in its deliberations." we should be talkin' with people." Th e Premier likes to I have been in this place for a while now, elected a say that. couple of times, and it is notable that important pieces You know what? I have to agree with her, particularly of legislation where there are signifi cant issues at stake, on important public policy issues. Th at's what we should where there are a number of important stakeholders, be doing this summer on this break. The committee oft en take a long period of time to come through the should be out talking with people. I see that the Minister legislative process. Th ere is widespread consultation on of Education is deep in thought. I will be grammatical- many bills. ly correct and use the term "talking" with the "g," as op- I can think, for example, of the Insurance Act. An al- posed to "talkin'" and "you know." legedly pro-business government took seven or eight But there is a unique opportunity, and I'm sure that years to bring about changes to the Insurance Act. Th ere the Minister of Education would understand the value was a white paper. There was a consultation process. of consulting with people in communities, just as the Th ere was draft legislation. It wasn't brought forward be- Premier said last year that that's what was important. yond introduction. It went back. Ultimately, there was a Hon. Speaker, I see that my time is coming to an end. I debate. Th e bill was passed, and then there was further would like to thank you for being present for both of my consultation on the regulations. speeches, if you like… Admittedly, the Insurance Act, as an important piece of legislation, regulates the operation of private insurance Interjection. companies in the province. Th ere was an eff ort to be con- sistent with the act in Alberta and to modernize the act. M. Farnworth: Exactly. He arranged his schedule to Indeed, there was a Supreme Court of Canada decision do it. I appreciate that. that pointed to some of the very legislative problems in …and to say: "Look, it is not too late, hon. Members the old act, because it had been originally passed in 1926. on the government side. It is not too late to seize the mo- Consultation to make legislation better, to have it ment. Seize the opportunity. Show your constituents the achieve the goals that citizens would wish for it, is real- real reason why you're here, which is to do good public ly almost mandatory for important pieces of legislation. policy based on sound input from the people impacted One can even see where some minor legislation will go and aff ected by the legislation that you are proposing to off the rails if it's not thought through carefully. put in place." I can think of other examples where consultation on Th ere is no need for Bill 24 to pass today or tomor- important legislation took a very lengthy period of time row. Th ere is nothing wrong with stepping back and, as similar to the Insurance Act — the Water Act. We just, W.A.C. Bennett once said, taking a famous second look. earlier in this session, debated the Water Act, but the Take a second look. You do that by striking the commit- Water Act had been pointed out at least ten or 15 years tee to go out and talk with individuals, talk with com- ago as an area where legislative change was important. munities across the province and come back and then Th ere was a committee that was struck to deal with the tell ministers, who have driven this piece of legislation Water Act. Th ere was, indeed, a parliamentary secretary solely on the basis of ideology, without a real consul- responsible specifi cally for that, and there were draft s of tation process: "Guess what. It's not on. We're going to legislation, widespread consultation, particularly with make some changes." the water districts in the Okanagan, environmental If you would do that, you would do more to restore groups. An important public policy issue produced a confi dence in your own government, confi dence in the really thorough bill. I think, for the most part, both sides work that you do as individual MLAs, than anything else agreed on that bill. Th at was the eff ect, the result of very you could do. eff ective consultation. With that, I will take my seat and say thank you. Clearly, there's nothing urgent about this bill. Th ere's nothing urgent in legislative terms, in policy terms. B. Ralston: It's my pleasure to follow the member for Th ere's no compelling reason to push this legislation Port Coquitlam. I will continue somewhat in the same through. vein but perhaps at a lower amplitude. Now, we've seen from some of the e-mail that's been [1620] released and been reported publicly that there may be a We are speaking to an amendment. I think it's import- compelling political motive by the member for Kootenay ant, just to focus the debate, that I read the amendment. East to push this piece of legislation forward. He has Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4337

some cronies in Kootenay East, in his riding, that he percent of the food consumed in British Columbia is appears determined to satisfy. Th e former Agriculture imported from somewhere else. Historically it has oft en Minister spoke about doing something for…. I just want come from California. to get that correctly: "Here is an opportunity to actually California is in the third year of a very advanced and muster up some support for our team." debilitating drought with consequent fi res and all the Now, these are not the reasons for pushing legislation concerns that that bring about permanent climate change forward. Th ese are compelling reasons to refer this piece to the state of California. Th e Imperial Valley and parts of legislation to a committee and have the committee of intensely farmed areas like that are important for the consider it. An important part of the amendment is also production of food that oft en comes to British Columbia to empower the committee "to invite witnesses to appear by truck. before it to assist in its deliberations." Th ere's no urgency to push this piece of legislation Th ere is a formal charging of the committee with its through, if one is thinking about the broader context. In responsibility to invite witnesses to appear. Th ere would fact, I think there's an obligation to consult more widely be a record of those deliberations. Th ere would be an op- and understand the implications of what is being done. portunity to question witnesses. Now, there was an eff ort. Th e member for Kootenay [1625] East, in charge of the core review, did direct some people, In our committee process here, that opportunity in a news release, to the committee last fall. Th ere was a doesn't arise very oft en. It's very common…. As you will news release of September 24, 2013: "Th e public will have know, Mr. Speaker, from your time assisting the Speaker an opportunity to provide input to core review as part in another capacity in Ottawa, the committee system for of the Committee on Finance and Government Services legislation in Ottawa is very diff erent. In fact, there's an budget consultations." Th at was in the release. opportunity when bills come forward for the parliament- Th is was not communicated or known, oddly enough, ary committees to call witnesses forward, to have them to the Chair of that committee, the member for Penticton. comment on the legislation. The Chair of that committee, the former mayor of Oft en the result is perhaps not so much laterally, be- Penticton, didn't know that the minister, to whom he cause it's a much more highly charged partisan environ- was the parliamentary secretary, had directed people to ment…. Even then there is the opportunity to change his committee to give input on the core review — colos- and alter legislation to make it more eff ective, to serve the sal, I would say, mismanagement and, at the very least, public purpose better and not to rush things through at miscommunication, crossed wires, however you want to the simple political behest of one or two powerful voices characterize it. in a caucus where they perhaps outshouted or have over- [1630] ridden other members of their own caucus. But I think there was a recognition in that gesture, Th is committee is a particularly important one, the however ineff ectual it was. As someone who has been in Finance and Government Services Committee. I served this place will know, when a committee is created, the on that committee for seven consecutive years. Its job Legislature charges it with a series of instructions, and is to receive public input, to meet with people, to hear that constitutes the jurisdiction of the committee. So a their concerns, and a record is kept of that. Th e govern- committee can't go out and just do anything on its own. ment, I think, would agree that one of the ways in which It has to adhere to the directions that it's given by the the government is able to receive new ideas, to alter its Legislature. legislative direction, to measure public opinion, to gauge For the Minister for Core Review to offh andedly say, public outcry or displeasure on certain issues is through "Well, I want this committee to look at this as well," real- that very committee. ly fl ies in the face of the parliamentary authority of the I think it's a very wise choice in the amendment to committee and completely misunderstands what the send it to that specifi c committee. Indeed, ideas that obligation of the committee was. Th ey couldn't consid- come forward from that committee oft en bubble up to er it because they didn't have the jurisdiction for it, be- the top in terms of legislative priorities for future gov- cause ultimately the Legislature is responsible for setting ernments. I've seen that take place over that time. Oft en out the terms of reference for the committee. So a com- deputy ministers will take the results of the consultation plete misfi re. and analyze that, report to their ministers, and new pol- In that gesture there was a recognition that consulta- itical priorities are set. Th is committee is, potentially, a tion was required. But it couldn't take place there. In fact, very eff ective way of dealing with this piece of legislation. the member for Vancouver-Kensington, who spoke on Th ere is no urgency. In fact, all the urgency is the other this issue earlier, was the vice-Chair of that committee way, when one considers the renewed priority on food and still is the vice-Chair. She told me, phoned me up security and the contribution of agriculture to food se- when this issue arose before the committee: "How can we curity. When we look outside our province, and it's im- be doing consultation when the Chair of the committee portant not to be parochial on these issues, roughly 50 doesn't even know and it's not in our terms of reference?" 4338 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

[R. Chouhan in the chair.] take all that input, look at the Hansard result, get a sum- mary of it, have our own notes and then sit down and Th at opportunity to consult, I think was, in a very decide what we think are the priorities of that commit- muted way, recognized but wasn't carried out at all. No tee and what should be recommended to the government. remedial measures were taken after that. There were Th at process is a signifi cant one, is an important one, other ways in which that consultation could have been and having spent those seven years on it, I well recognize accommodated, but we now know, from some of the e- its value. Th erefore, that's why I think it would be an im- mail that's been released, that there was another under- portant step to take. ground, subterranean agenda going on. Th ere are people who are professionals in the process While ostensibly, on the surface, there was a professed of consultation who help companies — not just public desire to consult, which was frustrated through some processes but individual companies. I was reading an bureaucratic ineptitude or political mismanagement, article in something called the Douglas, which is a busi- in fact the real agenda, the fast-fl owing underground ness magazine that's circulated here in the lower Island, stream, was to take a real whack at the Agricultural Land and there was an article there about the art of commun- Commission and open up agricultural land for develop- ity consultation. ment purposes. One of the things that this article talks about is how We heard, indeed, the Minister of Agriculture in for public projects — they gave an example of some de- question period earlier today say — and I think this velopment projects — it's important to set goals for the is something that certainly wasn't a widely expressed process and how important it is to…. I'll read from here: view, probably not known as the view of the Minister of "In order to have an eff ective consultation," it says, "do not Agriculture — that there would be nothing wrong with enter into community consultation with a set-in-stone taking agricultural land and having the right to park a plan, or your stakeholders will feel you are wasting their few trucks on it if that was needed to help an individual time and discounting their opinions." farmer, so never mind zoning, that somehow the com- Clearly, the idea from the Minister of Agriculture…. mission and its duty to provincial obligation, the prov- He said that he's not going to consult before the legisla- incial interest to preserve agricultural land, stood in the tion is done here in this place. I expect his goal is to have way of that. Part of the eff ort here, apparently, is to make the legislation passed — although one would be optimis- initiatives like that easier to take place. tic that there might be some internal discussion in the Th ere does need to be consultation, and this commit- Liberal caucus and that that wouldn't come to pass. But tee is the perfect vehicle to do it. Calling witnesses and what he seems to think is that there should be consulta- keeping a record is also important, because sometimes tion aft er the legislation passes. one hears in consultation, while we talk to people…. Now, you talk about: don't enter a community consul- I've been to some public processes where one can go tation with a set-in-stone plan. Th at would seem to be the into a room to talk about a project. I think most recently very opposite of what's recommended by these experts it was the B.C. Hydro long-term acquisition plan. You in community consultation — pass the legislation, which go into a room. Th ere are a number of storyboards on will change section 4 and section 6 of the Agricultural the wall. You're invited to speak individually with staff . Land Commission Act completely, and then you will But there's no opportunity to have a group discussion go out and consult. Th e time to consult is not aft er the or a collective discussion, and there's no record kept of legislation is passed; the time to consult is now, before your actual words. Th ere are, perhaps, some notes taken, the legislation passes. interpreted by the staff person, but not your actual words. For government members and for those in the public, Sometimes, if there's a predetermined conclusion in the this amendment, if it were to pass, wouldn't kill the bill. consultation, then that way of doing things doesn't pro- It would simply send it off to the committee, where the duce a fair result and a fair record. committee would engage in its consultations and then, [1635] presumably, report back to the Legislature. Th en what- Th e suggestion, the words in this amendment, that ever changes might be necessary and that they might "the committee be empowered to invite witnesses to ap- recommend to the bill could be made, or the bill could be pear before it to assist in its deliberations" is a very im- withdrawn and something else started over again. portant one, because those witnesses would be recorded Th is process is an important one, and it would seem in Hansard. Th ere would be a record, and the commit- that experts also say that the way in which the gov- tee, when it came to make its decision, could refer back. ernment is going about it thus far is not the preferred Th at's certainly the process that I am familiar with on the one. They also say — these people I'm talking about Finance and Government Services Committee, when we in community consultation…. I know the Minister of sit down to deliberate aft er our tour around the province. Agriculture said he's reading his e-mail. Oft en we would go to 25, 30, 35 diff erent individual What they say here — again, experts in community locations throughout the province — very widespread — consultation — what they recommend is: "Do not let Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4339

surveys and social media replace in-person communi- posed to later. cation." Th at seems to me exactly what the Minister of Th e shift that's…. Th e consultation is further required Agriculture has publicly admitted that he's doing. He's because, in fact, the change in the legislation that's pro- reading e-mail and monitoring some social media, and posed here is a fairly momentous one. It is a big deal. I'm that is strongly not recommended by these experts in going to quote from a letter from a number of soil sci- community consultation. entists. I won't list all their names, but it's an open letter [1640] to the Premier on serious concerns regarding Bill 24. Let Th e steps that need to be taken are fairly clear. Th is me quote from the letter here, because I want to elabor- matter should be referred to this committee, and the ate a little bit more by some reference to the statute itself. committee could undertake those processes. "Bill 24 divides the province into two regions and re- Now, the further dimension that I think is important moves the primacy of agriculture within zone 2 — the here is that one of the…. I suppose in a democracy the Interior, Kootenay and north panel regions. Bill 24 places ultimate consultation is the election. On this issue, typ- economic, cultural and social values" — that's section ically, parties put forward their platforms, and the public 4.3(b) — "on an equal footing — i.e., 'must consider' — is invited to comment and choose. Th at, presumably, in with agricultural considerations in zone 2. Th is is a fun- some cases, in many cases, factors into the decision that damental shift from the original intent of the ALR." Th ey people make about the election. have the words "fundamental shift " underlined. As some on this side have pointed out, Country Life in Essentially, Bill 24 would restore the situation prov- B.C., a well-known newspaper that covers and has been incewide to prior to 1972 "when the annual loss of agri- covering agricultural issues in the province for many cultural lands was ten times the loss we have experienced years — I think it's almost or over 100 years — prior to post-ALR. We question whether this is sound policy and the election asked each party what their stance on the direction in a province with a very limited land base ca- Agricultural Land Commission was. pable of food production." Th e question that was put to the parties in the Country [1645] Life in B.C. May 2013 issue was this: "How will your What I think the committee in its consultation would party balance competing interests for agricultural land want to do is to look at the change, as they've said, that and water? Will it work with the Agricultural Land this section…. Th is is in the amendment act that we're Commission to ensure agricultural land continues to be speaking to the amendment on. available for agriculture and not used for port, dam and What the current section 6 says is that the purposes of transportation, industrial and residential development?" the commission are: "(a) to preserve agricultural land; (b) Th at's a fairly direct question. We've had, I think, a par- to encourage farming on agricultural land in collabora- tial response from the Minister of Agriculture today. He tion with other communities of interest; (c) to encourage thinks that parking a few trucks on agricultural land is local governments, fi rst nations, the government and its a legitimate role for the Agricultural Land Commission. agents to enable and accommodate farm use of agricul- But the response from the Liberal Party there is: "Yes, tural land and uses compatible with agriculture in their we will maintain the excellent relationship we have built plans, bylaws and policies." with the ALC. We will spend more money to support the What this amendment does is…. It says it directs to Agricultural Land Commission for increased oversight of the tribunals that would be considering, in particular, the agricultural land reserve." And "We will work more applications to exclude land from the agricultural land closely with farmers, ranchers and organizers to preserve reserve. It says: "When exercising a power under this Act agricultural land and encourage farming." in relation to land located in Zone 2, the commission Th ere are some other things that are dealt with here, must consider all of the following: (a) the purposes of the but in that consultation, clearly, what was communicat- commission set out in section 6…." Th ose are the strictly ed, what was said, was that the B.C. Liberal Party had no agricultural purposes that exist in the act right now. But intention of bringing this type of legislation forward — then this amendment would add "(b) economic, cultural none whatsoever. and social values," second. Given that, I think it important, then, that before Rather than considering agriculture in an expanded this legislation is considered fi nally here in this House, sense as the primary purpose and the only purpose of a genuine consultation take place to go out and have interpretation, the panel would be entitled to consider some explanation and some input from people on why economic, cultural and social values and "(c) regional these noble objectives — these very defi nite responses and community planning objectives." in writing here in Country Life in B.C., the position of If, for example, we had…. Back a number of years ago the B.C. Liberal Party before the election — are not be- in Abbotsford, around the Abbotsford Airport, there ing followed, why those promises are being broken and was some land in the agricultural land reserve. Th e local why there's a need to change direction on this particu- community plan had ideas that it should be industrial lar part of the government's platform at this time, as op- land, notwithstanding its agricultural capability and the 4340 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

fact that it was in the ALR. Th is revision, this proposed committee is refl ected in the concern of thousands and amendment, would make that kind of consideration for thousands of British Columbians who have expressed exclusion that much easier because it would meet with, their concern to us, some through form letters, some presumably, regional and community planning object- through e-mails, some through direct letters. We've had ives and not agricultural values, but that would still be petitions from diff erent organizations. We've seen ral- legitimate. lies. We've seen a signifi cant amount of concern about Th e other proposed amendment which I think this this legislation. committee in its consultation would want to consider For that reason alone, one would think that the gov- very carefully — I don't think it has been given any atten- ernment would have the interest of the community in tion in this debate or any particular attention — is that mind and recognize that legislation shouldn't be passed "the commission must" — and the word is "must" — "con- without consultation with the public. Unfortunately, this sider all of the following." In addition to the fi rst three, is a pattern that we've seen with this government. Th is is there's "(d) other prescribed considerations." probably the most egregious example of that. Now, that is very vague. What that means is that by In fact, what we're talking about referring to com- regulation, the cabinet…. The member for Kootenay mittee was something that the government promised East in cabinet, if he was able to persuade his cabinet they wouldn't do before the election. Before the elec- colleagues of a regulation, could make that a mandatory tion — we have ample evidence to inform anyone — the consideration by the commission in considering an ex- government was actually intending to strengthen our clusion application. Th is is basically an open-ended in- protections of agricultural land and, in fact, to adhere vitation to the cabinet to impose its own criteria on the to the recommendations of the Auditor General and of reasons for excluding land from the agricultural land the commission itself to put in place some changes that reserve. would adequately deal with some of the concerns that I would say it's relatively…. It's unprecedented in the have been raised. entire history of the Agricultural Land Commission from I would just point out that the legislation should never its inception to the present day. Th is is why, despite all the have been conceived. It should never have been draft ed. protestations of the minister that everything is normal It shouldn't have been tabled here, and I certainly hope and he's committed to preserving agricultural land, this that it doesn't pass. My wagering self would not neces- is — I suppose the metaphor would be — the legislative sarily be interested in partaking in that. But I would say option through which one could drive many trucks. One that if there were six people or a few people on that side could build a subdivision on agricultural land based on who recognize that their constituents will have a long this simple subamendment alone. memory — and, I hope, not as forgiving as in the last Th e process of a community consultation that's man- election…. I think, perhaps, the concern of members op- dated by this amendment is, I think, vital for the long- posite should be acute. term future of agricultural land in the province and for Th is is not a piece of legislation that will simply pass public awareness. I think it's a wise policy choice at this and fade into the memory of legislators and the public. particular time. It's going to be a piece of legislation that we're reminded I would urge on those members in the government of on a daily basis and every time we hear about the loss caucus, where louder voices are prevailing, to speak up of agricultural production in California, every time we and to consider the future of agricultural land in the way hear about the challenges facing the farmers in the south- that this amendment proposes. ern United States or in Mexico. [1650] When we hear of the extreme climate conditions in many of the food growing regions of this country and N. Simons: It's my duty and partially a pleasure to be of the world, we will probably be a little chagrined. We able to speak on behalf of my constituents — actually, should have probably thought about that. We should that part is a pleasure. Th e part that's a little bit less easy have probably done more than thought about that. We to take is the fact that we're still debating this bill which should probably be doing something in order to ensure should have been withdrawn a long time ago. that our future generations of British Columbians and However, this opportunity to speak on the motion Canadians will have not just adequate access to food but to refer this bill to committee prior to letting it pass… I adequate access to the places where we grow that food. think it is eminently reasonable, appropriate and cautious Th is is the kind of thing, when it's not considered by in the nature of the type of politics that we should be government, that causes me as a legislator a signifi cant working under in this House. Unfortunately, it's not the amount of concern. cautious approach that we have here; it's the steamroller Th e Sunshine Coast has a fair amount of agricultural approach. When you have a steamroller on agricultural land, and it's used well. I certainly do hope that we all land, you've got, usually, some bad results. strive for fi nding some self-suffi ciency in our food pro- In this particular case, the need to refer this bill to duction. We look for it in energy. We seem to think that Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4341 we can count on a continued full supply of food from I'd like to point out how every time someone has a foreign jurisdictions. Th e drought in California right new grandchild — and it's a beautiful, wondrous thing now is not severe, not extreme; it's extraordinary. It's be- — people stand up in this House and announce it to it yond the extreme level of drought, and because of that, everyone. We clap, and we think about cute babies and it should cause us to think twice before we do something how wonderful it is. I think a little bit further, and I say: as reckless as remove any of the protection we have over "Okay. Th ose kids are going to have grandchildren one agricultural land. day, and maybe they'll be standing in this House. What [1655] will those grandchildren's challenges be?" It's not just that we were promised the opposite of this. I think one of the challenges will be the adaptation to It's not just that the government made no attempt to in- the climate change that we are beginning to experience form the public that they were going to weaken the pro- and will continue to experience. Th e previous Minister tections we have for agricultural land. It's that they're of Agriculture was not a fi rm believer in climate change. doing the exact opposite, without a mandate to do so. I I hope the opposite side of this House has come along a don't think being elected lets you become a dictator and little bit and recognizes that climate change is something make up rules and change the fundamental character of that we have to acknowledge and have to adapt to. our province without having said something about it in I look at it from a hopeful perspective. If we take the an election. necessary steps to strengthen ourselves against what may If in fact the government had confi dence prior to the or may not be coming but is likely to come, and that election to say that they were planning to weaken our means serious climactic events that will have an impact protection of agricultural land, I don't think they would on our ability to produce food…. If we're doing the right have had the result that they did in this last election. I thing, we're preparing our future generations. would just say that in the next election, we're not going I think about two generations from now, that they'll to just rely on people to remember for themselves. We look back and wonder…. It's not like we're asking for will ensure that we remind folks that in this dark day government to become progressive. No one is saying that of British Columbia history, we are doing something…. the government should be proactive in ensuring that we We're going backwards. protect more and more agricultural land or make it even Th ey laugh on the other side, and it's fun to see them stronger. We're not even arguing that today. smiling, because they haven't got a lot to laugh about to- What we're saying is, at the very least, leave it as the day, considering the embarrassing behaviour of their col- status quo, because what's being planned is already a leagues. But I do think that they should recognize that problem. What's being planned is going to allow for land 40 years ago it wasn't because of the sacrosanct nature speculators to think: "Maybe the next government is go- of the legislation. It was because of the quality nature of ing to reduce these protections a little bit more." that legislation. We brought in legislation 40 years ago by Now that this government, through their ill-conceived people with foresight, people with thought to the future. plans and their scheming before the election…. Maybe Th ey said: "We'll need to protect land for future genera- they'll be able to get to another pre-elected government tions. We're losing it at 6,000 hectares a year. We've got and say: "Th ese two zones — they don't really refl ect to do something about that." British Columbia as growing capabilities. Maybe there Everybody realized it at the time. Everybody in the should be fi ve zones or six zones." We're going to be into '70s realized we were losing a massive amount of farm- this situation where nobody will know what the other land at a rate that was not sustainable in order to protect zones are doing. the valuable and rare asset that we have here. [1700] For those who understand soil science, and I'm not an We need to protect agricultural land as a province from expert, we only have about 0.6 percent of land in British a provincial perspective. I think that's the fundamental Columbia that's class 1 land. You think about classes 1 to weakness of this legislation, that in fact what we're doing 3, and you can grow a variety of crops. We have a desper- is saying that some land of good agricultural quality is ate need to ensure that we protect that land, because if it's more important than other land of good quality. I have gone, it's going to be gone forever. to beg to diff er. I think the arguments that the govern- We cannot compromise when it comes to protecting ment has used to create this legislation are misinformed. our land. Th ere are a few things that we shouldn't com- I think it was pushed through with a boorish kind of ag- promise on, and I think agricultural land representing 5 gressiveness that probably convinced some of the newer percent of the province should be protected. members of the government caucus to acquiesce. Th e water supply that we have, the drinking water…. In fact, this is really the single-minded goal of a min- We need to protect our drinking water. Th is is the life- ister who had a bad run-in with the Agricultural Land blood of human existence, and without those protections, Commission or who has constituents who have a habit we are certainly causing ourselves potential challenges of complaining to him about decisions that don't go in in the future. their favour. But the reality is that most applications for 4342 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

exclusion or non-farm use do get approved, so the false and is still egregious, in my opinion. arguments that the government uses to justify this legis- [1705] lation, I think, are a problem. One would have thought that prior to tabling legisla- I don't think it's fair to the people of the province to tion, the government would have done the consultation be given arguments, straw man arguments — straw per- instead of waiting for a referral motion to bring it to a son arguments, I suppose, in the parlance of the day — committee to study. It should have been studied before. to use to convince people of new legislation like this. For Anyone who understands the basic elements of politics, example, when we had members from the very few…. who understands the importance of democracy and of I point out that we've debated this for ten days. debate, would say that when you bring in legislation, it Th is is our tenth day debating the Agricultural Land should be based on something that's requested from the Commission Amendment Act, and we've had exact- public, generally accepted by the public, will benefi t the ly nine members of the government caucus speak on public for today and for the future. this bill. Th ere are 40-something of them, and there are But the legislation before us today does none of that. 30-something of us. We've all spoken at least once. We've It does none of that. Th e impacts of this legislation we all spoken at least for half an hour, trying to convince know will be very negative, but we still don't know the the government of the error of their ways. Th e best they full impact. Th at's why a committee to study the eff ects could do was stand up, nine or ten of them, with straw and the impacts of this legislation is essential, in my view. man arguments and, obviously, message-box lines about I'm just going to read from some prepared notes to how this is going to improve farming. ensure that I cover some of the topics that I wanted to. If this was a bill about farming, if this was a bill about Half an hour goes by awfully quickly in this place, unless agriculture, they would have probably talked to the you're sitting listening. My apologies. Agriculture Council. Th ey probably would have spoken to the Agricultural Land Commission. Th ey probably Interjection. would have spoken with stakeholders and food security experts and soil scientists and those who take an active N. Simons: Yeah, thank you. Th e Minister of Jobs is and a conscious interest in how we protect our farmland going to disagree with that. Th at's sweet. I expect nothing and our ranchland and our land that's suitable for agri- better. But maybe I do expect something better. culture, but this is not a bill about agricultural land. We've talked about when the Minister of Agriculture We need to ensure that by referring it to committee, met up with the Minister Responsible for Core Review. we can certainly make sure that the intentions towards They had a plan, and their plan was quite clear and agriculture are addressed. Th at being said, a referral to a quite simple. It was to denigrate the Agricultural Land committee would allow the impacted stakeholders…. I Commission through a tour of the province and, subse- would say that's the entire province of British Columbia, quent to that, prepare a document that would cause…. because we all eat. It would allow for the experienced Well, it has subsequently caused a lot of concern when folks in the sector to have their say. it fell out of someone's briefcase and was picked up by a I don't understand. If we were pulling a fast one, this is reporter. When the reporter picked up that little piece how you'd do it. Th e recipe to pass a bad law, I think, has of paper, they realized the government wanted to throw just been written by the joy of legislation over here. Th e the Agricultural Land Commission in with the Oil and recipe included: create a false problem, create overreac- Gas Commission. Well, that certainly did not go over tion, create hysteria and anger towards an organization well with the public. or a commission, and then recognize that people's re- So the bill went back and got a bit of a tune-up and sponses are just what to be expected. If they think some- came back into this Legislature at the end of March thing is really bad, or if the government actually manages and was proudly put before the public by the Minister to do what they did and gut the commission's funding, Responsible for Core Review — who, by the way, had sure, they're going to have problems. nothing to do with it, really. He's just doing his job. He's But this is the fundamental problem — that the law just presenting it. Let's not pretend. We don't want to that's being debated here today is simply an attempt to pretend that the minister from Kootenay East really had allow for the minister responsible, the Minister for Core anything to do with it. He's just the Core Review Minister. Review, to get his way. Th e ministers come to him and tell them what they want, He's had this anger on about the Agricultural Land and he'll just say yes or no. Commission for a long time. He claims he doesn't, but Well, it stretches the bounds of credibility to believe there are a lot of things he claims that don't really refl ect that that was the story. Factually, I mean, it's obvious to what he's previously said, so I think we have to fi gure out everybody in the province that the Minister Responsible what position he's going to land on today. He claims to be for Core Review is the architect of this legislation. He supportive of the protection of agricultural land, yet he's obviously had accomplices. He obviously was given the proposing legislation that has been watered down twice means. He obviously was given the opportunity — very Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4343

deliberately, in my view and in the view of any person be absolutely clear. Th e Agriculture Council would pre- who pays any attention to this, and against the majority fer that this bill was withdrawn. Th ere's no doubt about of British Columbians' wishes. that. Any suggestion to the contrary would be mislead- I don't understand that. Th is is the way they do things. ing this House. Sure, they've got three more years to make sure their poll Th e consultation on regulations aft er this bill is passed numbers go back up, and they're going to hope like heck. is woefully inadequate to meet the needs of the agricul- Th ey're going to let everybody forget about this and have ture sector, and that's just talking about the agriculture something shiny so that we can all get distracted by it. sector. Th is is the kind of legislation that goes deep in the core What about British Columbians who buy their food of British Columbians, and if that's not understood, I at local farmers markets or who have family who ranch think it will be. Th is legislation — some have compared in the north — people who have been denigrated by this it to Canada's health care system, something that's fun- government through their arguments about the poor damental to the existence of Canadians. Agricultural land quality of land in the north and the unviability of ranch- protection — far before its time in the '70s. ing in the north and the economy of decline, as it's been Th ey said: "We need to protect land for future genera- referred to? Ranchers belong in a sector that is in decline, tions." We didn't say back in the '70s, when I was nine, and they're not going to manage an economy of decline. that we were doing this for us in those days. Th e farm- Th is government doesn't want to talk about things that ers were upset. Th ere were a lot of people that were very, aren't going to make them a quick buck now, because a very upset about this legislation at the time. Th ere were quick buck now certainly trumps long-term economic huge rallies on the lawn. Farmers threatened to not plant and social interests, not to mention the agriculture in- their crops. terests of future generations — ill-conceived, based on But within a few years this…. Th e Agricultural Land false arguments. Commission, the reserve — I mean, it's one of the most I was mentioning the tour that the minister went on popular pieces of public policy in British Columbia. I with the new Agriculture Minister. He took him under think it has an approval rating of over 90 percent consist- his wing, and they went around the province, and they ently over time. It took a brave government and it took talked to farmers. Th ey picked farmers and ranchers a government like a dog with a bone. Th ey were bent on who had particular concerns with the Agricultural Land doing this, come high water or the alternative. Commission but actually gave no examples of where the I think that, clearly, they've hit the wall with this. Th is commission has caused any problems. is what they want to do. Th ey're going to do it. Th ey're Th ere's a myth out there about dissatisfaction with de- not going to think about anything else other than their cisions from the Agricultural Land Commission that the single-minded desire to get this bill passed. government likes to spread. But this is from ministers Every opportunity existed for this government to take who have been caught and given a slap on the wrist for a step back. Every opportunity was given to them, and trying to interfere with an independent commission. So they slapped every opportunity down. Th e minister who question the source when you hear complaints about the presented this bill in the House, the Minister of Forests, Agricultural Land Commission and the need for legisla- did so reluctantly, in my view. tion to change their mandate. It was put forward. It was tabled, and it was immedi- Th eir mandate, by this legislation, is changing. Th eir ately met with outcry from the public. Th e media clearly mandate is changing. Th e protection of agricultural land spoke about the concern of the public, and the govern- that was paramount in the previous legislation has been ment went and wrote some amendments, hoping to put watered down. It has been diluted. Th ere's no question lipstick on a pig. Well, the lipstick has run, and I think about that. And if not, then why is the government so in- that the pig isn't even any happier now than he was before. sistent that this is going to somehow help farmers? Th is [1710] is the joke in it. We have so many letters from so many diff erent sectors How can they, with a straight face, think that this legis- that it's hard to know where to start with opposition to lation that they've passed — behind the backs of farmers, this bill. Th e government will say: "Oh, the Agriculture without consultation with the public and with as little Council has come around." If you tell somebody that opportunity for public input as possible — is going to you're not going to change your mind whatever and, "You be good for farmers? If that were the case, you'd think can either join us to do the regulations later or not," what they'd put it out on their clothesline for everyone to see, are they supposed to say? but I don't think they're doing that. Th ey're shoving it Th is is a government that's got the sector's arm be- in the basement, and they want this to go by as quickly hind its back. Th ese are agriculture industries that do as possible. rely, in some respect, on government policy, and there's Th at's probably why they're not debating. Th at's prob- not a great appetite to upset the people that could cause ably why members from the government side are not you a heck of a lot of problems. But let's be clear. Let's standing up to talk about it. Th ey want it to go by as 4344 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

quickly as possible, and we on the opposition side are literal sense but also in the public policy sense,' said Dr. Art Bomke, trying to drag it out as long as possible so that they don't professor emeritus of the UBC faculty of land and food systems. 'Th e ALR was established because local and regional authorities forget. We don't want them to forget. could not be relied upon to protect our scarce and irreplaceable Bill 24 was bad when it was conceived, it was bad when farmland from non-farm development. Th e six-panel system con- it was tabled, and it'll be bad if it gets passed. I certainly tained within Bill 24 potentially takes us right back to the 1973… hope it doesn't get passed, and I don't think I'm alone in that gave rise to the establishment of the ALR and the provincial land commission in the fi rst place.'" that. In fact, judging from the response from the public, Now, I can tell by body language that there's not a lot of I am absolutely certainly not alone. pickup on the government side, from this information. It Let me just read a few examples of how the illegitimate could be the way I'm reading it. I should have read it with argument may or may not have helped the government. more of a lilt in my voice. I will again, if…. Th e member We asked, by the way, through freedom of information, can check in Hansard. for documents relating to discussions around the core Th is is just one of the many, many press releases issued review, whether it's related to agriculture. I think we got three pages, blanked out. I mean, that's the extent of the by experts in British Columbia — experts who the gov- consultation that went on with respect to agriculture and ernment is choosing to ignore, I think, at their own peril. the core review. [1715] Interjection. Let me quote from some people who, I think, even N. Simons: Yeah, you know what? My good friend some of the members opposite would consider important and valid or valuable in terms of their opinion. A news from Saanich South, who has been absolutely helpful and release from the Pacifi c Regional Society of Soil Science. absolutely passionate in this debate, points out that she Now, not everybody in their day-to-day life comes into believes that the government believes they're the experts. contact with the soil scientists group. It's a group of We all know the danger of that. Th ey aren't speaking on people who are highly concerned about ensuring that we this bill, so they don't show their expertise. Th ey'd rather know as much as we can about the land and we know as plead the Fift h or whatever it is here. Th ey don't want to much as we can about how we can grow food, where we say anything. Don't move…. can grow food and what we can do on diff erent types of land. Th ey're very, very concerned about Bill 24. Interjection. I'm sure they would appreciate an opportunity to provide testimony to a committee — the Finance and N. Simons: Yeah, wrong country. Well, we talked Government Services Committee, as our motion cur- about the elements of the crime — mens rea and actus rently states. I think they would have a really…. It would reus. Th is is exactly what it is — that the intent was there probably enlighten a lot of the members opposite who before this legislation passed. If the act happens today, have been relying on a couple of members in their cau- we've got the complete elements necessary for a criminal cus who have a single-minded dislike for the Agricultural act in this province. It behooves this government to look Land Commission, as opposed to an open-minded, bal- more closely at the legislation they're passing. anced view of what the commission has done. I think they are neglecting the people of British Let me just quote from it. Th ey had a recent conven- Columbia. Th ey are doing a disservice to their grand- tion, and they thought that it would be important that children, who they proudly talk about in this House. I government realize that science-based decision-making hope that their grandchildren one day will say: "What should be used when determining issues around land the heck were you thinking when you decided to reduce and land use. Let me quote from this press release from the protections we have on farmland? What kind of pos- April. It's entitled "Losing Ground: Soil Scientists Raise sible logic were you using?" Concerns About The Potential Loss Of Agricultural You can't make this stuff . Th ere's fi ve percent of it in Land." the province. Protect what you've got; don't get rid of it. "With the introduction of Bill 24 just two days prior to the… Don't build on agricultural land. It's as simple as that, and workshop, there were serious concerns expressed by several sen- this government is going the opposite way. ior professionals that the splitting of the province into two zones, Unfortunately, when the barn doors open, these people one of which would receive less protection than the other, and the breaking apart of the provincial Agricultural Land Commission will come out and say, "Th ere's no farm left ," and I worry into six regional panels, would take B.C. backwards." about that. I worry about that not just for me and my For the record, the panels did exist already, but they were friends and their kids but for future generations that I not mandatory. What this legislation is doing is requir- don't even know. ing panels to be the decision-makers in the local areas, [1720] again taking away from the provincial oversight of the commission. Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, Members, "'With Bill 24,'" it continues, "'we will not only lose ground in the we have a motion in front of us. Th e motion reads, for Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4345 members' information: "Th at Bill (No. 24) not be read a I'm fi nished. second time now but the subject matter be referred to the [1730] Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government It's my opportunity today to speak to second reading Services and further that the committee be empowered of the bill, the amendment having been voted upon and to invite witnesses to appear before it to assist in its de- now disposed of, regrettably. Not a positive result, in my liberations." view, but we're back on second reading. I want to address some of the main concerns that this [Madame Speaker in the chair.] bill gives rise to. What is clear in this bill is that it chan- ges, in a very profound way, the operation of the land Madame Speaker: Members, please take your seats to commission and, in particular, mandates its considera- assist in the taking of the division. tion of applications to exclude land from the agricultural [1725] land reserve.

Amendment negatived on the following division: [R. Chouhan in the chair.]

YEAS — 31 Section 6 of the Agricultural Land Commission Act, as it is now, reads as follows. "Th e following are the purposes Hammell Simpson Farnworth of the commission: (a) to preserve agricultural land; (b) Ralston Horgan James to encourage farming on agricultural land in collabora- Dix Corrigan Popham tion with other communities of interest; (c) to encourage Fleming Kwan Conroy local governments, fi rst nations, the government and its Austin Donaldson Huntington agents to enable and accommodate farm use of agricul- Macdonald Karagianis Eby tural land and uses compatible with agriculture in their Bains Shin Heyman plans, bylaws and policies." Darcy Robinson Krog Th e mandate, the purpose of the commission, is to D. Routley Simons Fraser encourage agriculture in a broad sense within the prov- Chouhan Rice Holman ince. Th at's its legislative obligation, and that is used as an interpretive guide when considering applications to B. Routley exclude land from the reserve. NAYS — 46 What the principal, the major, amendment in the bill does in so-called zone 2, which is all…. Zone 1 is the Horne Sturdy Bing Island panel region, the Okanagan panel region and the Hogg McRae Stone south coast panel region. Zone 2 is everything else. What Fassbender Oakes Wat it does…. In proposed section 4.3 it says: "When exercis- Th omson Virk Rustad ing a power under this Act in relation to land located in Wilkinson Sultan Hamilton Zone 2" — that is when exercising a power would be in Reimer Ashton Morris considering, for example, the most obvious case, an ex- Hunt Sullivan Cadieux clusion application —"the commission must consider all Lake Polak de Jong of the following…." Clark Coleman Anton Th is is a legislated mandate. Th ese are instructions to the regional panel that would consider these applica- Bond Bennett Letnick tions to exclude. So rather than focus on the obligation Barnett Yap Th ornthwaite to preserve agricultural land, to encourage farming and Dalton Plecas Lee encourage local governments and other entities to pro- Kyllo Tegart Michelle Stilwell mote agriculture, this amendment would require the Th roness Larson Foster commission to consider all of the following: "(a) the pur- Bernier Martin Gibson poses of the commission set out in section 6." Th at's the Moira Stilwell existing section 6. But it would add the following: "(b) economic, cultural On the main motion. and social values." Th ere's no weighting as to economic, cultural or social. Th e commission is obliged to consider Madame Speaker: Speaking on second reading, economic values. When coming forward for an applica- Surrey-Whalley. [Applause.] tion for exclusion, if economic values are considered — and presumably that's a code word, the way in which it B. Ralston: I thank my colleagues for the support. I would be interpreted — if excluding it would increase the hope my speech will merit that kind of support when value of the land, if excluding it to commit it to indus- 4346 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

trial purposes or to residential purposes would generate Indeed, in a letter to the Premier, a number of experi- economic activity, that would be given equal weight with enced soil scientists expressed this in this way. the agricultural purposes. "We have serious concerns over the substantial change in direc- Th irdly: "(c) regional and community planning ob- tion embodied in Bill 24, presented to the Legislature in March, 2014. For the past four decades preservation of agricultural lands jectives." What was very clear in some documents that has been a provincewide priority aimed at protecting existing were leaked to the media back in November was that farmlands and lands that have the potential for future agricul- one of the dissatisfactions of the member for Kootenay tural use. East and the then Agriculture Minister was the role to "Some of those future agricultural lands are now forested, and until such time as they are needed and developed for agriculture, which local governments felt that their concerns, their they will contribute to wood and fi bre production and thereby to desires, their plans for land weren't being considered by the provincial economy. the Agricultural Land Commission, that the Agricultural "For such lands not currently farmed, the objective is to keep Land Commission, in pursuit of its overarching public the option open for future agriculture. We consider this to be a interest duty to promote and preserve agricultural land prudent course of action in the face of an uncertain future." By "uncertain future," they speak of climate change within the province, wasn't listening to them or wasn't and the considerations that are taking place. One only giving their opinions due weight. has to read the newspapers and be familiar in a very pass- Th is will give equal weight now to regional plans and ing and casual way with what's taking place in California. local government plans. So if local government has California, historically…. Th e Imperial Valley has provid- planned, for what is now agricultural land, residential ed, in the winter particularly, much of food that's trucked uses, industrial uses…. If that's in their plan, notwith- up to British Columbia. British Columbia only produces standing that it's in the agricultural land reserve, if an about 50 percent of the food that's consumed in the prov- application for exclusion is brought, then the commis- ince. It's in the third year of a very advanced drought. sion would be obliged to consider that and give it weight Is that a signal of long-term climate change? Many rep- when considering the application for exclusion. utable, serious scientists with international reputations [1735] think so. Th ey think these changes herald the beginning It turns the legislative mandate and considerations of signifi cant climate change in North America. of the commission upside down. It is a profound, pro- That's the reason why this bill is so rash, so short- found change, and all the assurances that one gets from sighted and such a dramatic change that's completely the Minister of Agriculture either suggest to me that he's unwarranted and unjustifi able by the current situation willing to gloss over this or he doesn't fully understand it. that we're in. But it's very clear that in changing this section, this brings Th ese climate scientists go on to say: about a major change in the way that exclusion applica- "Th is is a fundamental shift from the original intent of the ALR." tions will be considered. In fact, if this passes, in some Essentially, Bill 24 would restore the situation province- jurisdictions in zone 2, the gold rush will be on. I mean, wide to prior to 1972, when: there will be a stampede to bring exclusion applications, "Th e annual loss of agricultural lands was ten times the loss we to get land out of the reserve for these other purposes. have experienced post ALR. We question whether this is sound Finally, not only is there consideration of economic policy and direction in a province with a very limited land base values, the plans of communities, no matter how contrary capable of food production." they are to an existing agricultural land…. Th e fi nal con- [1740] sideration would be what's called: "(d) other prescribed Th ey go on to talk about the ALR. But the approach considerations." that they talk about…. Th ey say this: "Th is approach indeed has proven to keep future options avail- Th e legislation, not satisfi ed entirely with those con- able. For example, if the poor economic performance of tree fruit siderations, gives the power to cabinet by regulation to production in the Okanagan Valley of the 1970s had taken preced- say that the commission must consider this purpose, this ence over the inherent capability of many Okanagan Valley soils to consideration, in deciding whether or not to exclude land. produce both tree fruits and grapes, and had such lands not been protected in the ALR, the vibrant wine and associated agritourism If these changes don't do the trick, if they don't un- industry we have today would not have been possible or, at the very leash the avalanche of exclusion applications and suc- least, would have been much diminished." cessful exclusion applications that is anticipated and What they are saying is that given an uncertain future, wanted…. We've seen the undercurrent in recent e-mails as they describe it, given the likelihood of climate change, released. Th e member for Kootenay East — it's very clear taking a long-term view…. Th at example is, I think, a what he desires for that. Th e minister will be able to pre- very powerful one. Th e option was there. Had some of scribe considerations which will even further acceler- that land in the Okanagan Valley not been protected in ate, so mandate to the commission what it should do by the agricultural land reserve, it wouldn't have been there order-in-council — that is cabinet direction, rather than as a possibility for what is now a very vibrant wine indus- by legislative direction. Th at is a profound change to the try. It didn't exist before. Th ere was some wine but cer- legislation and to the entire direction of the land com- tainly not of the quality…. mission that's taken place over the last 40 years. Th e wine industry has taken off . Indeed, we hear from Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4347

the government how they are off promoting it around the which you remove future potential agricultural land, in world, in China. We have Mr. , a former min- an uncertain era, from production is the degree to which ister here, off promoting B.C. wine in China. But the very you're shortchanging yourself economically in the long land base that makes the growth of that industry possible, run. Th at is a profound concern about this legislation. had it not been for a more farsighted and visionary use of I want to talk a little bit about the other motivation the agricultural land reserve, might not have been avail- here in this legislation, because some of the e-mail that able for the industry to grow in. has surfaced has made very clear the animus of the mem- Th at's exactly what these soil scientists say. Th e vibrant ber for Kootenay East and some members in the Liberal wine industry and the associated agritourism business caucus towards the present leadership of the Agricultural that we have today would not have been possible or, at Land Commission, Mr. Bullock, and the direction that the very least, would be much diminished. he's taken. Th at's the kind of thing we are attempting to consid- But in 2002, when the B.C. Liberals first came to er here. Th at is why this bill and the changes it brings in power, one of the things that they did was restruc- section 4.3, where it will completely turn on its head the tured — I use that term advisedly — the commission considerations that are required to be directed to exclu- to strengthen regional representation. Th e Agricultural sion applications, will lead to a rush of exclusion of land Land Commission was composed of six regional pan- from zone 2. els with three members each. Th e regional restructuring These soil scientists also go on to say…. These are meant that decisions impacting a particular area would people who know, I would suggest, what they are talking be made by commissioners residing in that location. about when it comes to soils and soil capability. Th ey say: The change was intended to ensure that decision- "Bill 24 creates a two-tiered ALR, and a lower quality of agri- makers understood local issues. Some expressed — and culture lands and climate in zone 2 has been stated and assumed several times. However, these assertions are patently false when rightly so, as it turned out — concerns that local commis- examined in the light of objective soil science data and agriculture sioners would be more prone to pressure from developers capability ratings, ratings that incorporate a substantial body of and outsiders. In fact, there are some very good examples climate data gathered during the Canada land inventory. of the degree to which that took place. "In actual fact, there is far more class 1 to 4 land in zone 2 than in zone 1. About 85 percent, or two million hectares, in zone 2 versus What has happened with Mr. Bullock…. When the only 15 percent, or 350,000 hectares, in zone 1 — Select Standing now Minister of Forests was the Minister of Agriculture, Committee on Agriculture, 1978." Mr. Bullock completed a report and also assumed dir- Of course, lands of the same capability are not directly ection as the chair and CEO of the Agricultural Land comparable. Commission. In his report he made very clear his con- "A class 3 soil in the Fraser Valley is diff erent from a class 3 soil cern about regional panels. He says in the chair summary in the Peace. Capability based on the range of crops needs to be considered along with the suitability and productivity of individual of his report, which is dated November 26, 2010: crops on specifi c soils in specifi c local climates. "Furthermore, the existing governance structure has given rise "Lower-capability soils can be highly productive for a particular to six regional commissions, with little evidence that the panels crop. For example, a capability class 5 soil that is restricted to pro- maintain any provincial focus on the agricultural land preserva- ducing a forage crop — hay or silage — is oft en highly productive tion program. Moreover, there is very limited or no training and for that one narrow cropping option. education provided to new commissioners…. New commissioners "It is for this reason that class 5 lands are included in the ALR, are required to start performing their duties without any meaning- where they form the basis for some types of agriculture — import- ful awareness of their job, their roles as members of an administra- ant forage production lands in ranching areas and class 5 organic tive tribunal or the decision-making process." bog soils suited to the production of blueberries and cranberries. He expresses that concern about regional representa- "Similarly, some class 6 lands are important components of live- tion. While in some simplistic readings it sounds, I sup- stock production, notably the natural grasslands of the southern pose, congenial to have regional representatives who Interior. Th ese provide the oft en limited early spring and fall graz- ing…reducing both the labour and feed costs of ranchers." would refl ect their communities and, presumably, be Th e argument that's made — we've heard this in some more knowledgable, the degree to which that knowledge shorthand ways and some eff orts to, I suppose, strike a is refl ected in good decisions is really a matter for debate. more populist pose on these issues — is: "Th is land in I want to give an example of that. Th ere was a case which zone 2 is lousy. It's not good for anything. Let's put some came before the Supreme Court of British Columbia. Th e trucks on it." We heard the Minister of Agriculture say petitioners are Elvin Gowman and Anne Clayton, and that today. "Let's park a few trucks on it." the respondent was the provincial Agricultural Land [1745] Commission. Th at approach really fl ies in the face of science and of What the petitioners did was…. Th ey owned prop- evidence-based decision-making. It's very shortsight- erty within the agricultural land reserve. An application ed and, I think, deleterious to the long-term economic was made for exclusion, by a company calmed Nodes health of the province because agriculture, as members Construction. Nodes Construction had property in the opposite like to say from time to time, is an import- village of Pouce Coupe. Th ey made an application to ex- ant industry and a growth industry here. Th e degree to clude from the ALR 15 acres in the southeastern portion 4348 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

of a larger 111-hectare parcel in order to consolidate their For example, in 2005 there was an appointment made to business into a single location. one of the regional panels — John Tomlinson. He was a Th ere was a residential subdivision separated from the friend of the Minister of Forests and Range, now the min- 15 acres that are the subject of the exclusion application ister responsible for LNG. by a public road known as 57A. John Kendrew was the He worked in that minister's 2001 election cam- commissioner who was a member of the regional panel. paign and is the former B.C. Liberal Riding Association I'm quoting from the decision: He is "the registered president for Fort Langley–Aldergrove, the same minis- owner in fee simple, as a joint tenant with Patricia Dell ter's riding. He donated over $12,500 to the B.C. Liberals Kendrew, of a property located immediately to the east together with his wife. He even starred in a B.C. Liberal of and adjacent to the 15 hectares that are the subject of election commercial as a business owner. He was certain- the exclusion application. As an adjacent landowner, he ly knowledgable about the local region but appointed to received a copy of the notice and a copy of the exclusion this regional panel with an abundance of political con- application." Now, the petitioners didn't get a copy of the nections that far outweighed any apparent expertise he notice, but Mr. Kendrew did. might have brought to considerations on agricultural [1750] land. Th e signifi cant thing about Mr. Kendrew is that Mr. Th ere were others who were appointed. Th ere was an Kendrew was sitting on the…. He owns property adja- appointment of a Mr. Bill Jones. Bill Jones was an inter- cent to the exclusion application. He was served with a esting appointment back then because at a public meet- copy of the notice and a copy of the exclusion application ing…. Th ere was a public meeting about exclusion of prior to his participation in the resolution. He also sat on what are called the Garden City lands in Richmond from the Agricultural Land Commission panel that considered the ALR. Th at's a big piece of land, very close to the city the very application. centre, that has been not built on for many years and used Th e property is next to his property. He's served with to belong to the Department of National Defence. Mr. a notice. His land is adjacent to the 15-hectare par- Jones went to a public meeting and expressed his view cel for which the exclusion is sought. When this went that this land should be excluded from the agricultural to the B.C. Supreme Court, the judge pointed out that land reserve, and then, two days later, was appointed as a Commissioner Kendrew is not merely an individual who regional commissioner to the south coast panel. happens to own land in the ALR, in the vicinity of the [1755] applicant. He had to be served with the notice. He's that Now, that was something that was the subject of debate. close. He's right adjacent to it. When that became apparent, the minister of the day was Nonetheless, he was served with a notice. His prop- obliged to rescind the appointment of Mr. Jones because erty is right next to it. He sat on the decision to exclude even by the very loose standards then, his impartiality the land. Th e judge said: "However, as stated above, I am was clearly in question. of the opinion that Commissioner Kendrew should not Th ese illustrate some of the problems of the region- have participated in the resolution, and accordingly, it al panels. I know, for example, that the member for would be inappropriate to leave it to the commission to Kootenay East has a very close relationship with a man determine whether a reconsideration of the original de- named Carmen Purdy. Carmen Purdy was on a regional cision is appropriate." panel. When this legislation passes, and I want to make Th ere you have a member of the commission, property this clear, my prediction is that he will be appointed to a right next door to the exclusion application — still feels regional panel in the Kootenay region because of his con- it's appropriate to sit on the very commission deciding nection with the member for Kootenay East. the application, even though he has been served with a Clearly, what's expressed here by Mr. Bullock is a con- notice and his property is next door. Certainly, one could cern about the eff ect of those regional panels and their well understand that Commissioner Kendrew had a keen effi cacy in maintaining a provincial focus. understanding of local conditions. In fact, he should have At this point, given that my time here is expiring, I do excluded himself. Th at's what the court said. He didn't. want to move an amendment to Bill 24. Th e amendment He thought that he would simply sit in on the decision reads as follows: and make a decision to exclude the piece of land from [Th at the motion for second reading of Bill (No. 24) intituled Agricultural Land Commission (Amendment) Act be amended the agricultural land reserve. by deleting all the words following the word "that" and substi- That's part of the problem of local representation. tuting therefore the following: "it is not in the best interests of Th at's a very graphic illustration of it. Th ere are other ex- agriculture, food producers, the public, nor those of future gen- amples. Aft er 2005 I was the critic for Agriculture here erations of British Columbians for the government to change the legislated protection that exists over land in the Agricultural in the Legislature. Some of the same problems that this Land Reserve without fi rst determining the possible impacts of example illustrates in terms of regional panels were ones those changes to agriculture in our Province."] that were…. Th ere were other illustrations of that. I have a copy for the Clerk. Post-2005 I think the appointment process changed. If I might, then, I'd like to continue speaking to that Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4349

amendment. through unauthorized use. By unauthorized use…. I don't think there's any magic. Deputy Speaker: Continue, Member. It's in order. In my area of Surrey people would sometimes dump illegal fill, whether it's concrete blocks or construc- On the amendment. tion waste or sawdust, onto agricultural land. If it's not checked and is left there, then, ultimately, there's more B. Ralston: Speaking to the amendment, what the put on there. Th en, ultimately, an application is made to amendment speaks to is, again, the importance of a long- exclude the land because, presumably because of the fi ll, term consideration of what the impact of this legislation it has diminished or no agricultural value. So it is also a might be for agriculture, food producers, the public and back-door step towards ultimate exclusion from the ALR future generations of British Columbians. for other purposes. What Mr. Bullock spoke of in his review…. He did do One of the other things that Mr. Bullock mentions in what he called an environmental scan of the problems for his report is there's a renewed priority on food security agriculture and the challenges for agriculture in British and the contribution of agriculture. To the public, the Columbia. I want to briefl y review that as we take what I issue of food security — certainly, among the younger suggest is a longer-term view that's required of agricul- generation — is a growing one. People are concerned ture and its challenges here in British Columbia. about the quality of their food and its origins. In his report he spoke of the following concerns, and I One only has to look…. I know that many members will enumerate them and quote from his report in a loose speak of the economic colossus that is China and the eco- way. He spoke of an environmental scan. nomic opportunities that exist there. But one of the real One of the fi rst things that he was concerned with concerns among Chinese citizens, at a popular level, is is the increasing growth pressures on agricultural land. adulterated food — food that has toxins in it, food that Certainly, that is very much the issue that this amend- doesn't meet basic health standards. One of the selling ment seeks to ask the Legislature and the House and points of B.C. produce in the China market is that it's or- members to consider in a more long-term way, rath- ganic. It's clean, it's pure, and it's eatable. er than as a short-term fi x to some of the immediate political objectives of the Premier and the member for [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Kootenay East. Th ere are "pressures to convert ALR land to residen- We don't have the same concerns here, luckily. tial, industrial, commercial, institutional, conservation Fortunately, because of our food inspection system and and other community uses." Th ere is the concern about because of the quality of our produce and the way in the economics of farming, concern about access to water. which animals which are slaughtered here are raised, Th at's a debate that we've had here in the Legislature not we don't have the same concerns. So the concern about so long ago, in terms of passing a new water act. But in food security and healthy food…. Th at's not just sim- the irrigation districts in the Okanagan…. And as climate ply food that looks good to eat; it's food that genuinely changes, irrigation in other parts of the province, par- doesn't have toxins and unhelpful matters in it. Th at is ticularly the north, will increasingly be an issue — and a real concern. access to water. I think that contemporary views on food security are Th e other challenges for agricultural land are unlaw- only going to increase in intensity as people, particularly ful use of agricultural land. It's been a problem since the in other parts of the world, consider that issue. Inevitably, inception of the ALR, but it's now manifesting itself to that's an issue that people here are going to pay more a far greater degree, which, if left unchecked, can result attention to as well. Indeed, those steps are underway in the permanent alienation of good agricultural land. as well. [1800] Th ere are also a number of concerns with the impact In fact, in the promises that were made by the B.C. of how the commission operates on the future viability Liberals in May 2013 in Country Life in B.C., they said: of farmland in the province. But the short-term view "In addition to the funding, we've also increased the num- that's being taken by the creation and re-empowering of ber of provincial government offi cials authorized to in- regional panels and the complete reversing of the legis- vestigate and respond to ALR violations to approximately lative option in considering exclusion applications will 30 through coordinated multiministry enforcement." be dramatic. So there's recognition there that at the existing level Th e application process that Mr. Bullock speaks of in of exclusions and the existing level of staffi ng, there's his report is something that is a deep concern to him enforcement that's required. So if this legislation were and to the future operation of the Land Commission to pass, the pressures on enforcement would dramatic- Act. What he says in his report — I can see, again, why ally increase, I suggest, and be incapable of keeping up this would provoke the kind of reaction from those who with the demand to resist alienation of agricultural land seek short-term exclusion for economic gain — is this. 4350 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

He says: of the Kootenay Livestock Association, KLA; and B.C. Cattlemens "Another observation is that the application process appears Association, BCCA; a member of the regional district of East to be directly opposed to the objectives of the Agricultural Land Kootenays agricultural advisory commission and the agricultural Commission Act of preserving agricultural land and encouraging plan steering committee; and a tenacious agricultural advocate. farming. Where an application is for exclusion, subdivision or "A few years ago two of the current 'anti-Richard Bullock leader- non-farm use, the application process fosters and perpetuates ship of the ALC' members running the KLA were representatives speculation to the detriment of the ALR. on the AAC" — which is the Agricultural Advisory Committee. [1805] "As such, they were supposed to represent agriculture and agricul- tural interests and not developers. "For example, the act provides the opportunity for an individual "When there was an application to the ALC to use a key piece to purchase prime agricultural land today and apply to remove it of our limited native bunchgrass Crown ALR land to move a from the ALR the next day. Land speculation remains high aft er houseboat operation and storage parking lot onto it and build a nearly 40 years, and there is still a pervasive attitude among many boat launch over our cattle's main and safest access to water on that agricultural land is simply holding property until a 'higher or the north part of that range pasture, they claimed: 'Th ere's noth- better' use is identifi ed. ing we can do about this.' Th is area also happened to be Class A "In addition, an inordinate amount of resources are consumed ungulate winter range. in dealing with these proposals. Refocusing the legislation away "Th is application to move this operation from part of Marcer from application towards long-term planning, ALR boundary re- Ranching's operation aided in the exclusion from the ALR and views and the needs of bona fi de farmers and ranchers would go a subsequent sale of the Marcer Ranching property for a residential long way towards addressing the continued speculation to convert development of hundreds of houses in a small townsite on Lake agricultural land for some other purposes." Koocanusa reservoir. Th is ALC decision is causing urban sprawl He goes on to say: in the middle of nowhere, and we all know or should know that "Following my review, I can confi rm that the ALC is extremely that increases community service costs and taxes. challenged to meet its mandate. In my opinion…has done an [1810] admirable job despite fi nancial constraints. Aft er nearly 40 years I "Th e houseboat applicant assured us: 'All of our impact will be believe the ALR is looked upon as a solid foundation for the busi- out on the water.' Since then everything has changed, and we have ness of agriculture in B.C. learned that his word is worth nothing. His houseboat business "Regrettably…the foundation has suff ered erosion to the land was not adequate for his aspirations. It has mushroomed into an base and loss of support from bona fi de farmers and ranchers but, illegal RV park, which he intends to expand further onto our lim- thankfully, not to the point that it is irreparable. Continued gov- ited native bunchgrass, open rangeland, an area that includes our ernment support and adequate funding and resources will allow cattle's last remaining access to water that is unoccupied by people the ALC to meet its challenges." on the northern half of that pasture." He does express the concern about the Agricultural So there's a very outspoken advocate, a longtime farmer, Land Commission. He does express concern about a rancher in the Kootenays. regional panels. And he does express the concern about In the e-mail that was released, the member for Kootenay exclusion applications. One can see that expressing those East says the following: "I do not know who tried to send concerns in that way would inevitably — and, in fact, it you to see Noreen Th ielen, but as you discovered when has — have led him into direct confl ict with those in the meeting with the KLA, even second-generation ranchers Liberal caucus whose priority is, as the former Minister completely committed to the ALR told you she has a very of Agriculture said: "Here's an opportunity to actually biased view of the world and does not represent the larger muster up some support for our team." majority of ranchers in this region." By doing that, it's to up the ante and to make it easier Clearly, the minister is fi ghting his own internal pol- to get land out of the ALR for other non-agricultural uses. itical battles in Kootenay East, and I think the fairly de- Th at will serve to support and, as he says in his e-mail, tailed comment that Ms. Theilen made and her long "muster up some support for our team." experience in ranching seem to be dismissed by the Th at seems to be the priority, and that's a very short- member for Kootenay East, I suppose largely because she term priority. Now, admittedly, this was written be- doesn't agree with him. fore the election. Maybe the prospects of the election Th at, I suppose, is a measure of the depth of the debate were uppermost in the mind of the former Minister of and the degree to which Mr. Bullock — she refers to the Agriculture at that point. But certainly, that speaks to anti-Bullock faction — has polarized debate within the the kind of political considerations that are motivating agricultural community. Th is legislation is designed to this bill, rather than what I submit should be the legit- get even with Mr. Bullock, I would submit. imate long-term concerns about the commission and its Mr. Bullock was commissioned to produce this report operation. by the now Minister of Forests, who was the executive dir- One can see that clash very directly in an exchange…. ector of the Agriculture Council for many years. He comes Perhaps I'll just introduce the letter. Th is is a letter from from a family that has been involved in farming in the a woman named Noreen Th ielen. She writes from the Okanagan for 100 years — very knowledgable about farm- Charlesworth Ranch, Newgate B.C. She describes herself ing. I dealt with him before he went into politics. When I in this letter in the following way: was the Agriculture critic, he was the executive director of "I'm a long-term member and current director of Waldo the Agriculture Council. He was very reasonable and ap- Stockbreeders Association, an over-100-year-old agricultural or- ganization representing farmers and ranchers in the southern part proachable to deal with and had what I judged to be a sin- of East Kootenay Valley and Elk Valley. I'm a long-time member cere and profound commitment to agriculture. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4351

He brought in Mr. Bullock. Mr. Bullock was installed application-driven at the expense of more meaningful activities, in the Agricultural Land Commission. Th ere is now an such as long-range planning, ALR boundary assessments and dealing with emerging issues related to agriculture. Th e ALC has internal battle being waged by some in the Liberal cau- been relegated to a purely reactive role with little or no ability to cus against Mr. Bullock. Th at's what these e-mails clearly be proactive. and graphically chronicle — the internal battle that's be- "I believe too much prominence has been given to the appli- ing fought against Mr. Bullock inside the Liberal caucus. cation process. In order to reduce the number of applications Th e result is that the Premier has apparently acquiesced received by ALC, the following options could be considered for implementation: a landowner may not submit an application for and let this piece of legislation go forward. fi ve years aft er the purchase of the property; private land owners It will have a very dramatic eff ect. I gave you some ex- may not make an application to exclude land from the ALR; during amples. I gave some examples of what the eff ect of the the ALR boundary reviews, applications may not be submitted to regional panels was back in post-2002, in the earlier part the ALC; if an application is refused, another application may not be resubmitted for ten years; and a risk-based referral process for of the last decade. Th is will very much and very dramat- farm enhancement from bona fi de farmers and ranchers." ically open the fl oodgates for exclusion applications. Is One can see, given these views, that too many of the this a good thing? Is this something that is valuable to commission's resources are consumed by dealing with the province? Is this something that we want to coun- exclusion applications. Th e commission has no ability tenance here? to control them. Th e volume is unceasing. Th e legisla- Th e Agricultural Land Commission has been the sub- tive restrictions on bringing applications are very lim- ject of other studies. Certainly, the study by the Auditor ited and now will be accelerated dramatically were this General of the obligations of the Agricultural Land legislation to proceed. Commission made some suggestions about how the How, in the words of the amendment brought forward, commission might be more eff ective. But certainly, Mr. can that be in the best long-term interests of future gen- Bullock's conclusion in his very lengthy report is that, erations of British Columbians, given what reputable soil generally, the commission has done a pretty good job, scientists regard as an uncertain future for agriculture given that budget constraints limited its ability to do a and food production here in British Columbia, given number of things in a recent period. climate change and all of the other pressures on agricul- But the volume of applications will dramatically in- tural land? crease. In fact, in his report Mr. Bullock spoke — and It seems to me that the intent of the legislation is very, again, one can see why his leadership on these issues is very shortsighted and will accelerate the negative tenden- being rejected — very clearly about the impact of these cies within the commission, drive more and more of its applications on the work of the commission. He says in work to consideration of individual exclusion applica- his report, in analyzing the existing Agricultural Land tions, and there'll be less time for the other more broad Commission Act, section 30: objectives that most people would see as being import- [1815] ant in the long term. "What the aforementioned sections regarding exclusion applica- What Mr. Bullock recognized as what should be the tions make clear is that anyone can apply to the ALC at any time regardless of the quality of the land. In the prior iterations of the priorities for the land commission are set out very clearly, section regarding exclusion applications, the focus was primarily I think, in the summary of his report. He recommends on the evaluation of the agricultural merits of the land being in the that the commission…. And this would appear to be ALR. However, the current version of the act moved away from this the very opposite of the direction that the commission focus and now provides that a landowner can apply regardless of the agricultural quality of the land. In other words, the landowner is now going to be heading, should this legislation pass. purchasing prime agricultural land today may apply to remove the He suggested several of what he called, strategic shift s to land from the ALR tomorrow. Th e same scenario also applies to set the Agricultural Land Commission on course for the subdivision and non-farm use applications." next 40 years: an ALR that has defensible boundaries, an Th ere's no legislative barrier to exclusion applications ALR that places agriculture fi rst. coming forward. With the change in section 4.3, where [1820] the purposes of the commission in interpreting this sec- Th ink about that — an ALR that places agriculture tion will include economic, cultural and social values; fi rst — with the amendment to section 4. Rather than regional and community planning objectives; and other have agriculture as the fi rst consideration, land in zone 2 prescribed considerations, it will make it all that much in the ALR will be subject to consideration of economic, easier, in the view of applicants who want land excluded, cultural and social values; regional and community plan- to fi nd what they would regard as a favourable decision. ning objectives, other prescribed considerations that the It's clear that the way the commission operates, these Minister of Agriculture and the cabinet of the day might applications consume a tremendous amount of the re- impose upon decision-makers at the commission. sources of the commission. I'm going to quote again from Rather than placing agriculture fi rst, the commission Mr. Bullock's report. will be kind of — I don't know — a way station for the "It's also apparent that applications consume an enormous amount of ALC resources, as it receives between 500 and 700 new consideration of applications to remove land from the re- applications annually. Th e work of the ALC has migrated to being serve and use it for other purposes. Th at tendency, given 4352 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

this legislation, should it pass, will only accelerate. Th is [1825] is a profound, a major, a sweeping change. Here's why I would think that some members in the It's not to be brushed off or dismissed in the way that Liberal caucus object to Mr. Bullock. Let me quote. From the few members of the government who did enter the Noreen Th ielen again, the Charlesworth Ranch, a Waldo debate, many days ago in a very brief way, were dismis- stock breeder. sive of any concerns that those of us on this side of the "Mr. Bullock has brought an encouraging and refreshing direc- House are raising and, indeed, that many organizations tion to the ALC. He and his direction have given us hope for a positive future for agriculture, one I haven't felt or seen in years are raising publicly, whether they are consumer groups, or even decades. I speak from years of experience in agriculture. restaurant associations, organic farmers, the Cattlemen's "We are receivers of numerous negative impacts of ALC deci- Association or other major reputable agricultural organ- sions in our area, made under the leadership of the chair prior to izations, consumers or people simply concerned about Mr. Bullock. Th ese past ALC decisions speak to the failure, from an agriculture perspective, of the regional panel system. Th ese the future of climate in the province and its impact upon negative impacts and consequences continue to grow and expand agricultural land. as the days, months and years go by. Th ose considerations are not going to be foremost in "We could not withstand any more of the same type of decisions the minds of the new commission. Th e new commission, by the ALC as were made under the prior chair. We were totally frustrated, angered and appalled with the way the ALC operated the reconstituted commission if this legislation passes, under the prior chair. You would have to visit our operation to will be increasingly, in a way even beyond the way in possibly grasp the extent of the problems and the negative eff ects which…. Mr. Bullock has expressed concern with the we deal with as a result of these decisions. fl ood of applications detracting from any other oppor- "With Mr. Bullock as the ALC chair and the direction he has tunity to do any other work. Th at will be the focus of the taken the ALR and the ALC, we have hope for the future of agri- culture and for our daughter to be part of that future generation commission. in agriculture in this province. We are working hard and fi ghting He goes on to say his goal is — I'm quoting again from to retain her ability to carry on this 100-year-old agricultural his strategic shift suggestions — "an ALC that evolves to operation. a proactive planning organization and moves away from "We are extremely confi dent in Mr. Bullock's abilities as the chair of the ALC and in total support of his leadership there. If this gov- being reactive and focused on applications." Well, I think ernment values agriculture in this province, you will not interfere I've summarized that concern. Th at is contrary to a long- with his direction and leadership of the ALC and the ALR." term direction for and certainly not in the best interests Well, I appreciate her point of view — very strong, very of agriculture, food producers or the public. clear. I think in fact what's happening to the ALC is that He also goes on to say his view…. Again, one could see it's going to head very much in the opposite direction. It's how this would bring him in direct confl ict with some regrettable, it's shortsighted and, I think, very much the members of the Liberal caucus, such as the Premier and opposite of what Noreen Th ielen would advocate for the the member for Kootenay East and some others. Agricultural Land Commission and its future. "An ALC that places priority considerations on bona fi de farmers One of the things that I also want to address in the and ranchers and issues that may impact, positively or negatively, time that I have remaining…. I'm not sure how much bona fi de farmers and ranchers…. An ALC that builds strong alli- ances with farm and ranch groups and…organizations to identify time I have. I have a brief period of time, apparently, to and cooperatively address emerging issues that may impact, posi- continue talking. tively or negatively, bona fi de farmers or ranchers." What I also want to address is what is sometimes Obviously, there's a legitimate role to take the issues called…. It's put in diff erent ways, but it's referred to in of farmers and ranchers seriously. Indeed, that's what Mr. Bullock's report and some of the discussion as the he advocates for. But the opportunity for land specula- intergenerational transfer of farm operations and estate tion at the expense of bona fi de farmers and ranchers planning of settlements. is something that he regards as a lower policy priority Now, to listen to the members opposite talking about — indeed, not a policy priority at all. Th at appears to be the problem or the challenge that comes when people very much the opposite of what is intended by this legis- running a farming operation get older, wish to retire lation. Th at's what we're, I think, going to see, should this and wish to hand it over to the next generation or wish legislation pass. to see some other way of either capitalizing their land I'm going to go back to Ms. Th ielen and speak about or remaining on the land and passing it on to the next her view of why she thinks there are Bullock and anti- generation, one would think that there had never been Bullock factions within the agricultural community and any consideration by the Agricultural Land Commission the politics at that level within her region. She says the about this problem. In fact, there is a very detailed policy following about Mr. Bullock. "Frankly, I think given what that's been considered, and Mr. Bullock considered it in has been said in these e-mails, what the direction of this his report in some considerable detail. legislation is, I can confi dently predict that not only will Th ere are three categories of this problem, and much Carmen Purdy be appointed to a regional panel; but if consideration and policy over the life of the commis- this legislation passes, Mr. Bullock will be fi red fairly sion has been devoted to these problems. Th ere is what shortly thereaft er." is called homesite severance, and that's a policy that was Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4353

developed many years ago back in the '70s. Th e ALC at their own solution that are outside legal solutions. Th at that point provided retiring applicants with a leasehold can't be good for agriculture, and it can't be good for so- for life over their home and yard area, arguing that the ciety in the long run. leasehold allowed the farmer to remain in his home but I am deeply concerned about this legislation. I think did not permanently separate the farm home from the it lacks any vision. Th e consequences of passing it have productive remnant, reverting it back to the farm par- not been considered. We certainly appreciate that there's cel when the farmer no longer occupied the home for short-term political pressure being brought within the any reason. B.C. Liberal caucus. But surely, when there are other, I Th ere's also a policy on intergenerational transfer of would submit, more knowledgable and more visionary farm operations. It's a type of subdivision proposal that members of the Liberal caucus — knowledgable about relates to the transfer of a farm or ranch operation as a matters of agriculture, such as the Minister of Forests, the going concern to the next generation of family members. former executive director of the Agriculture Council of Th e third category is estate planning or settlement. It British Columbia…. I hope those voices are heard. relates to the transfer of ALR land to family members and I noticed that minister has not participated in the pub- applies to both farmers and non-farmers. Th e objective lic debate in the media in any way. My sense is that he's of such a proposal is, in most cases, to actively divide up embarrassed to participate, because he knows that this property for distribution to family members, absent the action is just shameful, and he doesn't support it. To go argument that the children or other heirs would take over along, he's simply biting his tongue and saying nothing an active farm or ranch operation. and keeping his head down. Th at is really rather sad. Th at [1830] is really rather sad for him but also for the way in which Th is issue of the continuation of farming operations this policy has been concocted. impacted by wish to retire, by death, by old age has been I predict that this matter, if this legislation passes, is extensively considered. Th ere are numerous policy oper- not going away. It will not go away. It will be the subject ations and a lot of thinking that has gone into this. But of continued public debate here in the province, and it to listen to the members opposite, this is all something will ultimately lead to a diff erent approach than we have that the Agricultural Land Commission really stands in seen heretofore. the way of. I am going to conclude my remarks on this amend- One would never know, from listening to them, that ment. I hope that this amendment will gain some sup- any consideration has ever been given to any of these port from members on the other side, but certainly, I problems whatsoever. Th at, I say, is, regrettably, quite know that my colleagues are fully intending to debate misleading. I think there has been and continues to be…. this amendment in the sense that it speaks to what I If one looks at this paper, there is certainly an openness think should be the real consideration of this Legislature, to consider other options. what should be the real consideration of eff ective policy But the option that is not open is the one that appears — that is, considering the long-term interests of British to be the most desirable, which is to slice off segments of Columbia, the future of agriculture and how we might the family farm, convert it irretrievably and irreparably best serve those purposes here in this Legislature. to industrial or other non-agricultural uses and wreck its [1835] use, destroy its use for agriculture at any point in the fu- Th e legislation doesn't do it. It takes us dramatically ture. Th at's the frustration, I suppose, that we heard some and darkly in the opposite direction, and really, should of the members…. I think the member for Peace River it pass, it will be a very sad day for agriculture and agri- South expressed it in his comments. cultural land, food production and the future here in Th e example was given — it got some prominence in British Columbia. the media — where a person built an entire rodeo oper- With those comments, I want to thank you, Madame ation on agricultural land without permits, without zon- Speaker, and I will conclude my remarks. ing, without any permission from the Agricultural Land Commission. Yes, indeed, that would not be permitted N. Macdonald: I'm pleased to stand to speak for the and is probably, certainly, not a good use of agricultural third time on this bill. Th e fi rst time that I spoke was, of land, except maybe in a rare circumstance. course, on second reading, where we talked about the Clearly, that person was willing just to charge ahead substance of the bill, and I laid out the reasons why I without any legislative or legal sanction. Th e enforcement think the direction the government is taking on this bill powers of the commission are suffi ciently diminished is completely the wrong direction to take. and weak — given the lack of a budget, notwithstand- Th e second opportunity I had to speak on this bill was ing some improvements that have been made in recent when my colleague from Nelson-Creston put forward a years — that nothing can be done about that. Th at en- suggestion, a motion that this bill go to the broader pub- courages a contempt for the law, a resort to basically self- lic, go through a process of consultation over the next help, where people take it upon themselves to fashion number of months and be dealt with properly so that we 4354 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

had decent legislation. other examples — the HST — where specifi cally the gov- Th at, of course, was just voted on and voted down erning party, during an election period, is asked to put by the government. Now we move to the motion from in writing their commitment on where they are going to my colleague from Surrey-Whalley, which is a reasoned go, stepping forward. amendment, and it's a debate that I am pleased to enter [1840] into. Of course, calling this a debate is a bit of a stretch, Of course, they say one thing, they write one thing, because a debate would normally have more than one and immediately they move in the opposite direction side putting forward views. once they form government. Th ere is the concept of a I think it speaks to the hubris of the government that mandate, and the mandate that this government sought they cannot even be bothered, over the last number of from the people was to do nothing to the agricultural days, to even respond in any way or to make any argu- land reserve — in fact to strengthen it. ment to the work that we do here in trying to put forward Now, it's 20 to seven. In the time zone that I work on, good, logical suggestions as to how we could fi x the mess it's 20 to eight. So in fact it's kind of interesting to be that's been thrown in the form of Bill 24. standing here, having a conversation about an issue that Bill 24, people will know, contemplates profound chan- impacts food, when you're hungry. It's a strange thing ges to the Agricultural Land Commission, changes that and probably a suitable thing to have happen. I spent six are destructive in so many ways. We have heard again years in Africa. It reminds you of how much in Canada and again from people across this province that they and British Columbia we take for granted. We just do want the government to step away from this legislation not think about some of the gift s that we have in the way and put together something that makes sense. We have that we should. How oft en do people think about food? the reasoned amendment, and to begin my remarks, let's Here I am, hungry. It's a bit inconvenient. I'm going to just go to where we started on the government's agenda get fed within half an hour. I know it. I've never in my life with changes to the agricultural land reserve. gone without having food. Yet we take it for granted. We To go there, we should go to the mandate that this do not think about the fragility of our food supply. We government had on this issue, because there was a man- take it completely for granted, just as we do our demo- date. Th ere was a question in the last election to the B.C. cracy. Th at's something that we need to think about as Liberals about this very issue. we contemplate moves like this. What happens in elections is, of course, that diff erent Th ere's a quote. I mean, Ronald Wright is well known. groups will ask the political parties for their position on He wrote a book on civilizations. I think it's A Short specifi c issues. Just as the NDP and the Greens and the History of Progress, and it won a Governor General's Conservatives were asked specifi cally what their views Award. It's a very interesting book. He was asked to sum- were on the agricultural land reserve, so were the B.C. marize his book, which was about civilizations and the Liberals. Th ey were asked specifi cally to put in writing collapse of civilizations, because there are many examples. their position on this particular issue. We think now, as many civilizations before us, that we Th is is what the B.C. Liberals wrote. First, the ques- are immune to problems that others faced, that some- tion. Th e question was: will the B.C. Liberals work to how this is going to last forever, even though most logic- protect agricultural land from development? Th at was al people would realize that at so many levels there's a the specifi c question that was asked to the B.C. Liberals fragility to the society that we've created. He was asked by those that are concerned about the issue. Th e answer what the lesson was that he would pass on. Th e lesson from the B.C. Liberals was this commitment. Th ey prom- he took…. He said: "Th ere are three things to remember. ised…. It's laughable when you read it because, of course, You don't build on your agricultural land is lesson 1. You they have done and they are doing the exact opposite. But do not build on your agricultural land is lesson 2. You do the commitment, made in writing by the B.C. Liberals…. not build on your agricultural land is lesson 3." Here we have a province with 5 percent of our land that Interjections. is arable. At some point in the past, 40 years ago, at tre- mendous political cost, a government had the foresight N. Macdonald: Instead of conversations over there, it to protect it. And now what are we doing? might be worth listening to what the members actually Let's think about this, because the e-mail that the committed to. NDP has that talks…. Actually, it's a conversation be- Th is is, in writing, what was said. Th ey promised to tween members of this government. It actually shows "work more closely with farmers, ranchers and agricultur- the genesis of this bill. Th is is the essence of it. We have al organizations to preserve agricultural land and encour- the arguments that have been made by government, but age farming" and "maintain the excellent relationship that the essence of this bill is clear here in the e-mail stream. we have built with the ALC." Well, what a bunch of rub- I'm going to put into the record some elements of the bish that's turned out to be. e-mail stream. Th is is an e-mail from 2012. At the time, It's easy to say these things. I mean, it reminds me of the current Minister of Social Development was the Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4355

Minister of Agriculture. Th e e-mail stream, of course, what's he actually talking about? Is he talking about agri- includes the current member for Peace River North. It culture? No, he's not. He's talking about moving on. Let's includes the member for Kootenay East. It includes the get RVs on that land. Th at's what he wants to do. Is he current member for Cariboo-Chilcotin. It includes the talking about respect for agriculture? No. Anybody who current member for Vernon-Monashee. All of those talks about agriculture…. people are part of this conversation. So let's see: what does the member for Kootenay East Interjections. have to say about the ALR? What are his views on the ALR? Remember, the government is saying that this is N. Macdonald: Oh, well, we have two ministers and to strengthen agriculture, that this is to keep the ALC the Deputy Premier who want to participate in the de- independent. But listen to what the person who put this bate. When is the last time that a member from that side bill together actually says about the ALC, about agricul- has actually stood and spoken on this? If the Minister of tural land. Jobs wants to stand up and participate in the debate, she He says this. "Premier Clark was present, and I very is free to do it. If you want to just yap about things from deliberately looked her in the eye and made direct refer- that side, feel free. But you can also debate properly. ence to the fact that she was present for the discussion." So he wanted to be clear that…. Interjections. [1845] Madame Speaker: Members. Madame Speaker: And you'll refrain from using names. N. Macdonald: And the Deputy Premier has the op- portunity as well. N. Macdonald: Excuse me. Th e Premier. He wanted to be clear that the Premier was aware of Madame Speaker: Members, through the Chair. the agenda that he had. Th en in the e-mail he goes on to say about Mr. Bullock that Mr. Bullock is somebody that N. Macdonald: Let's continue. he had expectations of and that he's disappointed in, in Oh, the Deputy Premier has something more import- his letter to the Minister of Agriculture at the time. ant to do. Well, if there's a better indication of the con- He says that, well, when the Minister of Agriculture tempt that the Deputy Premier has for this process…. was there visiting, someone at the ALC, the Agricultural Too busy to participate in this. You've got better things Land Commission, somehow advised him to go and meet to do. Okay, off you go. Go at it. Fly at it. with what the member for Kootenay East describes as What do we have, then? We have the member for "probably the most negative rancher in southeastern B.C." Kootenay East laying out what his agenda is. What is the Well, there's a title for you. How do you go and meet with response? How does the member for Peace River North, the most negative rancher in southeastern B.C.? And who the Premier assigns as the Minister of Agriculture, what was she negative about? Well, my colleague read choose to participate? Th is is what he says: the letter just previously. Th e person he's referring to is "Every time I try to contact Mr. Bullock, I'm told that he is an arm's-length body and for me to get the hell out of his hair. Who Noreen Th ielen. the hell is running our province anyway? Here is an opportunity Th is is a longstanding rancher, somebody who has to actually muster up some support for our team," meaning the been there a long time and had the audacity, according B.C. Liberal team, "but instead, we will ignore it and go out and to the member for Kootenay East, to object to land being fi nd some way to give the Indians more money, which doesn't get taken out of the agricultural land reserve, at a time when me one vote. "I'm getting very tired of this kind of nonsense. Furthermore — the member's friends were running the local board there, the member for Kootenay East — "is absolutely right when he said and had lost opportunities for ranching. My colleague that his area should be fi rst for boundary changes." read into the record her version of what took place there [1850] and why it was wrong. Th at's an odd way for members of government to be Of course, the member for Kootenay East's preference talking, but I think it opens a door into the thinking that would be that the Minister of Agriculture would not talk went into this bill. to somebody like that. He goes on to say: "We do not need When did this start? It starts with the bill being intro- people from outside our region telling us that we should duced on March 27. It was introduced by the Minister of cease developing our tourist industry." And he says that Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations. It was the choice "to review an RV development that most of introduced on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture. One us here, including the Kootenay Livestock Association, minute, 20 seconds was the introduction — one minute, think is a model of how to do it right…." 20 seconds. As you go through and read the argument that the minister who eventually came up with this bill makes, Interjections. 4356 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

N. Macdonald: Lots going on here. I can see I'm not wrap up here. With that, I'd like to reserve my place in the only one who's hungry. this debate and move adjournment at this time of the debate. Interjections. N. Macdonald moved adjournment of debate. Madame Speaker: Member. Member, take your seat. Motion approved. N. Macdonald: I'm not the only one hungry, it seems. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported Madame Speaker: Proceed. progress, was granted leave to sit again.

N. Macdonald: Just as we saw with Montreal and New Committee of Supply (Section C), having reported York, it's always the end of the game when it gets chippy, resolutions and progress, was granted leave to sit again. right? Always the end of the game it gets chippy. But here we are. We've got to bring this home for Hon. R. Coleman moved adjournment of the House. the people, the viewers at home. On March 27, 2014, the Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Motion approved. Operations introduces, on behalf of the government, Bill 24. A one-minute, 20-second explanation of what's going Madame Speaker: Th is House, at its rising, stands ad- on, and he says three things. I would refer back to you journed until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. three things he says. He says this bill is about preserving farmland. Well, if Th e House adjourned at 6:55 p.m. you go to the e-mail stream, and you see what the min- isters who brought this forward are talking about, it's the exact opposite. Th ey want to subdivide. Th ey want PROCEEDINGS IN THE to get rid of agricultural land. Th at is what they're talk- DOUGLAS FIR ROOM ing about. In no place do they talk about agriculture. Somehow, somebody writes something for this minister, Committee of Supply and he's forced to say something that is the exact oppos- ite of the truth. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH Th e second thing that is said by the minister in intro- (continued) ducing this bill is that it's going to better support food production, when the only person in this e-mail stream Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. that's interested in food production is the rancher that Dalton in the chair. the current Minister for Core Review describes as — and let me just get the description here: "Th at person is Th e committee met at 3:15 p.m. the biggest, most negative rancher in southeastern B.C." Because she actually believes in using ranchland for pro- On Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,788,820,000 ducing food, somehow that doesn't fi t with this minis- (continued). ter's agenda. Th e third thing that the minister says, on behalf of the J. Darcy: I know we have a lot of material still to cover government, is this: that this legislation is going to keep and a bit of a delay with question period and introduc- the ALC fully independent. What a joke. I mean, the tions today, so we'll get right to it. whole thing that the member from North Peace is com- I want to focus over the next hour, hour and a half or plaining about is this Mr. Bullock getting in the way of so — and some other colleagues of mine will be joining him doing whatever he wants to do. me — on the issue of primary care. Perhaps I could begin You know, Mr. Bullock actually has a legal obligation to by referring to a document that the minister has refer- be at an arm's length from politicians, especially the min- enced on a couple of occasions, Setting Priorities for the ister. How this Premier chooses somebody who doesn't B.C. Health System, February of 2014, in particular on understand that in the fi rst place, but more importantly, page 3, priority 3, where the document says very clearly: when it is so clear that they have an agenda that takes "Implement a provincial system of primary and community us down this road…. Everything about it is disturbing. care built around interprofessional teams and functions." It goes Everything about it is wrong. on to say we need to "create a community-based system of inter- I see, in a very subtle way — in fact, I recognize this professional health teams with a strong focus on populations and individuals with high health and support needs: patients with from teaching, since she only had to give me a certain chronic diseases, frail elderly, people with severe mental illness and look to send along the message — that we're going to substance use and people with signifi cant disabilities." Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4357

It goes on later on to talk about some of the groups for-service rather than alternate payment plan methods whose needs in particular need to be addressed, in speak- of payment. ing about chronic conditions, beginning on page 24 and I want to ask the minister — who has said that it's im- then continuing on page 25. It talks about a wide range portant that we explore other forms of delivering care of chronic illnesses that, of course, we're familiar with — and not be focused exclusively on fee-for-service and arthritis, asthma, lung disease, chronic pain, congestive that more and more young doctors coming out want to heart failure, diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke — that practice in interdisciplinary teams — why he is defending "require sustained and coordinated medical and non- the actions of Vancouver Coastal Health in this regard medical management." rather than saying: "Stop. We need to reconsider this, and It also points out that it is these British Columbians we need to look at expanding that model of care rather who use the most hospital, PharmaCare and other than curtailing it." health care services — high users of direct medical pri- mary care services as well as hospitalization rates. It also Hon. T. Lake: We talked a little bit about this yesterday, points out — I want to draw the minister's attention to but I'm happy to discuss this more. this: "Th ere is a clear progression over a short period As we mentioned yesterday…. We were talking about of time, fi ve years, where people move from healthy or the Auditor General's report and talking about value for low-complexity chronic conditions to high-complexity money and the diff erent models of payment for doctors, chronic conditions." alternate payment versus fee-for-service. We talked about For people newly diagnosed with one or more chron- the changes that have been made in our fee-for-service ic conditions, it talks about the costs of the early stages, model, which is, I think, signifi cant. signifi cant medical intervention being needed. But it also If I could just talk about the primary care redesign says in the next paragraph: "Patients with chronic disease that's going on in Vancouver fi rst of all. Th e member require increased time, planning and care coordination quoted from our document saying that those with high as they age. Inadequate or ineff ective community care health and support needs do benefi t from an integrated also results in increased demand for acute care providers." primary care setting. Th ere is no question that that is true. That's a pretty strong statement on behalf of the If you look at the demographics of the population, you Ministry of Health and on behalf of the government can really zero in on diff erent segments of the population of British Columbia — in particular, about the need to and their level of needs in terms of health care. Th ere are strengthen primary care. Th ere are many other docu- certain parts, certain segments of the population which ments that I could reference where the minister has have much higher needs. Age is, of course, one of those spoken about the need to strengthen interdisciplinary demographics. care in British Columbia. We spoke about the issue yes- [1525] terday when we talked about the percentage of physicians Th ings like people's income, whether they're on social who are on fee-for-service as opposed to alternate pay- supports, whether they have more than one co-morbidity ment plans, and the minister has promised a breakdown — there are diff erent segments of the population that have of how many of those actually work in primary care. diff erent health care needs. We've also talked about nurse practitioners and the I would argue that someone that…. You know, I could critical role, the expanded role, that they can and must use myself as an example — a relatively healthy person play in our health care system. Th ere are other care pro- that has a good disposable income, has a reasonable edu- viders, part of that interdisciplinary team, that also play cation, has good access to health care. My health care a critical role, including people in occupational rehabili- needs would diff er from someone who has been raised tation therapy, in some cases, pharmacists, dieticians in poverty, for instance, who doesn't have the benefi t of a and so on. good education, who may have diffi culty with knowledge My question to the minister is: in light of the gov- of nutrition, who may have diffi culty having access to in- ernment's stated commitment to expanding interdisci- formation in terms of wellness, who may have multiple plinary care teams across the province, including nurse morbidities, perhaps mental health issues or substance practitioners and other health professionals, why is the use issues. Th ose are complex, vulnerable patients. minister standing behind and endorsing the actions by A recent report on the Canadian health care system…. Vancouver Coastal Health Authority to fundamentally I was trying to fi nd the name of the report, and it's slipped cut the several primary care clinics, community health my mind, but one of the things it talked about was equity centres in Vancouver so that in fact most of those patients of access for health care, saying that we don't have equal will end up, despite their needs…? equity in terms of access. [1520] Th at is why we want to ensure that those complex, vul- Th e 5 percent most acute needs will apparently go to nerable patients have the ability to see a multidisciplin- Raven Song. Most of them, if they're able to go with their ary team. Again, this goes back to appropriateness, and family doctors, will certainly be transitioning to a fee- the changes that have occurred in Vancouver Coastal are 4358 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

to refl ect the changing demographics and the changing share this with the minister; although, I'll probably share needs of the population that they serve. one with him that doesn't have quite as many marks on it In the east side of Vancouver and the south side of as this — there's a breakdown through zero, which is vir- Vancouver, the demographics have changed over the tually no use of the health care system — one through fi ve. years. We mentioned that with the…. I don't know if I Five, which the minister has referred to, is very high mentioned yesterday, but I will mention now that the city morbidity — not just high morbidity but very high mor- of Vancouver has some social housing units that are go- bidity, which is defi ned as: "Highest needs, requiring as- ing into the east side of Vancouver at a very close prox- sertive specialized care, unstable, chaotic, unpredictable, imity to Raven Song Community Health Centre. history of multiple emergency room and acute care ad- Th ose people that tend to live in social housing are missions and multiple chronic conditions." Th is is some- oft en those that have high needs in terms of health care. thing that is quite widely used, I believe, in primary care. So with that population increasing in that area, it was It comes out of Johns Hopkins. It has been used in the a wise decision on the part of Vancouver Coastal to in- case of analysis of these clinics and who they serve. crease the capacity of Raven Song while adjusting other In fact, we see 724 patients all together served out of primary care facilities to meet the less complex needs of the total covered by these clinics who are in this category the demographic where they are located. In fact, complex, 5, highest utilization. vulnerable patients will have increased access to integrat- But there are also in high morbidity, which is also very ed health services at Raven Song by increasing the num- high needs…. It's not the highest but also very, very high ber of days from fi ve to seven and increasing the number needs and moderate morbidity, which is defi ned…. I of hours per day from eight to 12. think the minister would be clear when he sees the defi n- Raven Song has direct linkages to home care, to pub- ition: "High needs, requiring continuous and integrated lic health, to mental health and addictions services. We primary health and social care — for example, the frail, know that when we serve that vulnerable population, at-risk youth, people marginalized due to poverty, addic- which is growing in that particular part of Vancouver…. tion, mental health, refugees, new immigrants, multiple We know that if we do that well in an interdisciplinary chronic disease and complex care requirements." Th ose primary care facility, we will reduce emergency depart- are the people that fi t into a category of high morbidity. ment visits and we will reduce length of stays in hospital. Th ere are 1,719 of them who were served by these clinics. So while the member says this is a reduction of ser- Moderate morbidity. I would go back to the minister's vice, it is absolutely…. It's a change in the service to better own document, Setting Priorities for the B.C. Health meet the needs of that complex, vulnerable population System, where it says — and I already referred to it — on that we have outlined in our document. We know that page 25: "Th ere is a clear progression over a relatively those patients that have less complex needs will con- short period of time — fi ve years — where people move tinue to have opportunities to see a family physician. from healthy or low-complexity chronic conditions to Vancouver Coastal is working with physicians to change high-complexity chronic conditions." It goes on to say their models over to suit the needs of the population that that it's critical to have continuity of care and robust care they serve, and the high-needs patients will have greater along the way. access to the services that will be very helpful for them. We have in this category a moderate morbidity. Th is includes people oft en with multiple chronic conditions J. Darcy: Well, we don't have any disagreement about — not one chronic condition but multiple chronic con- the fact that the people with the highest needs, the most ditions. In that category we have 8,800 patients served at-risk 5 percent of the population, certainly need inten- by these clinics. sive and robust primary care interdisciplinary teams to So if we're just speaking about moderate morbidity, provide for them. I would point out that…. Th e minis- which includes several chronic conditions, high mor- ter talks about 24-7 access at Raven Song. If I could just bidity and very high morbidity…. I'm trying to do some touch on Mid-Main. I'm going to come back to that, but quick math here, although it was not my best subject. the Mid-Main Community Health Centre, for instance, We're getting close to 10,000 patients — 9,500 to 10,000 has for many years now had doctors on call 24-7. But I patients. Th at's just in moderate to high and extremely will return to Mid Main in particular. high morbidity. I want to draw the minister's attention to something. Most of these patients, as a result of decisions by Th ere are probably terms and charts that he's familiar Vancouver Coastal Health, supported by this government, with that are referred to as resource utilization bands, will no longer be served by robust interdisciplinary teams. otherwise known as RUBs. When a doctor friend of mine Th ey will be migrated to fee-for-service. used the term, I wasn't quite sure what she meant, but I We can have an entirely other discussion, and I think became familiar with it fairly quickly. it's an important discussion for us to have, about whether [1530] or not other people with varying health needs, whether or Th e fact is that if you do an analysis — and I'm happy to not they're in the highest-risk categories, are also served Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4359 well by robust interdisciplinary teams that focus on pre- are those that certainly have even higher needs that do vention precisely so that healthier patients or people benefi t from an interdisciplinary approach, so we should with low morbidity don't in fact migrate fairly quickly put our resources where they are best utilized and where from low morbidity to medium morbidity to high and they can best serve those patients. In this case, that is an extremely high, as the minister's own document says can expansion of the interdisciplinary team to seven days happen over a fairly rapid period of time. a week, 12 hours a day at the Raven Song Community But let's just focus on those other patients — maybe Health Centre. 9,500 to 10,000 of them — who have moderate morbid- ity or high morbidity. What about them? How are they J. Darcy: I think, actually, that it's the minister who is going to be well served by robust interdisciplinary teams insisting on one-size-fi ts-all. Certainly, the initiatives that when they're migrated to fee-for-service? have been taken to incentivize doctors and general prac- In some cases it has been suggested — in the case of titioners in order to spend more time with patients with the Evergreen clinic — that one of the reasons this change complex conditions are an important step, but the min- needs to happen is that the clinic, served by two phys- ister appears to be saying that that's the only way to go. icians, was only seeing 2,500 patients, when in fact they Here you have an excellent model of care that's already should have been seeing 5,000. How will those patients' in place, has served residents in various communities needs be served if they migrate to a system that, as the throughout Vancouver for a number of years, and it's ef- minister has said himself, focuses on volume? fectively being dismantled. [1535] On the issue of Evergreen….

Hon. T. Lake: I need to, I guess, enlighten the member Interjection. opposite about Evergreen. It was physicians and a clerk, not an interdisciplinary team. It was not a community J. Darcy: Well, the primary care functions…. Minister, health centre in terms of having an interdisciplinary team. we can…. Raven Song Community Health Centre will have a full interdisciplinary team and will serve approximately Th e Chair: Th rough the Chair, please, Member. 9,000 adults and 10,000 children and youth, as well as their families. It has an integrated team that has the cap- J. Darcy: Hon. Chair, to the minister, through you, of acity to help the highly complex, vulnerable patients that course. the member describes. Th e primary care functions of those other community Th e fact is that fee-for-service has changed a lot over clinics will be closed. At some of those locations there the number of years since this government embarked will be other parts of Vancouver Coastal's care delivery, upon the General Practice Services Committee with but there will not be team-based interdisciplinary care Doctors of B.C. Rather than just have a one-size-fi ts-all with doctors on an alternative payment plan. billing system — $36 for a general exam — we listened I want to correct the minister. Th e minister said there to doctors and sat down with them and said: "Th ere are were only two physicians at Evergreen. Th at's true most some people who need more time, more service. Th ey are recently. Th ere was, in fact, a nurse practitioner position more complex." Perhaps not the highly complex ones that there in the past which was eliminated and not fi lled, and do require the interdisciplinary approach that is available it's not as if the needs of that population have gone down. at Raven Song, but we still have put in changes to allow [1540] for doctors to spend more time with patients. I know the member for Vancouver-Kingsway will want For instance, complex care fees. Complex care fees to speak to that a little bit further. are utilized for those patients that, obviously, don't have Th ere was also a nurse practitioner at Pacifi c Spirit — simple problems, and the amount that is paid is $315. I again, a position that was eliminated. Th ere was also a can tell you that from January 1, 2013, to April 30, 2014, part-time pharmacist position at Pacifi c Spirit, also partly there were 169,199 patients that were seen under this at Mid-Main, but I will come back to that. complex care fee. Th at was a total of just over $53 mil- I want to return to some of the minister's statements lion. We have a GP mental health planning fee of $100 — that he has made more recently, because I really think again, to encourage GPs to spend more time with those that the actions that are being taken by Vancouver patients who need it; an annual chronic care bonus for Coastal, which this minister has been vigorously de- those patients with diabetes of $125; annual chronic care fending ever since we brought these issues before him…. bonus for heart failure, another $125. He said on March 10: "We see nurse practitioners and Th ere are all these changes that we have made with the physicians working as part of an interdisciplinary team, General Practice Services Committee that help to address and this is sort of the future of health care. In primary those patients that do have higher needs than a lower health care, where people interface with their family complex patient. However, we understand that there practitioner, I think we will see more and more teams 4360 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014 with physicians, nurse practitioners, counsellors and others. pharmacists." It goes on, and it echoes much of the same language Again, same date, "Our government recognizes the that is used. It also — very importantly, though — talks vital role nurse practitioners play in supporting the about family care clinics enabling access to a range of health of B.C. patients," yet we have seen nurse practi- health care services as well as community social services tioners as a result of these actions, these cuts, eliminated that support and infl uence health and well-being. In their at Mid-Main, previously at Evergreen, at Pacifi c Spirit, conception of it, this is very much tied to addressing so- and we're not sure where the future will lead. At this cial determinants of health and addressing the very issues point I'm not aware that there are any plans for the future that the minister talked about earlier that infl uence poor for nurse practitioners, with the exception of Raven Song. health, like poverty in particular. I could go on quoting the minister, but I think the min- [1545] ister knows what statements he's made in support of an Th e plan in Alberta is 24 now on the order paper, three expanded role for nurse practitioners, both in primary already in place. Th ey plan to be up to 140 family care care and in all aspects of care. clinics in the next few years. Can the minister try and We're going to return to some specifi cs about the clin- explain to me and to people served by these community ics, but the minister has talked about value for money. care clinics in Vancouver why the government of British He talked about value for money yesterday, and he re- Columbia is going in the opposite direction? peated that today. Th ere have been signifi cant Canadian studies that have Hon. T. Lake: I've answered this question. Th is will be shown that in the case of community health centres, they the third time, so I think it'll be the last time that I stand in fact lead the pack. Chronic disease management — 10 up to answer the same question. to 15 percent better than all other models. Presence of We are concentrating resources where they are appro- a nurse practitioner led to a 10 percent improvement in priate. Raven Song has increased its hours, increased the chronic disease management. Community health centre number of days that it is open, and it will see the highest- physicians also had more time with patients. In fact, an needs patients. Th e other clinics — some certainly will additional 1,000 patients per month added to a phys- have a bit of a change in the way they operate. If you look ician's load saw a direct, resulting decrease in the qual- at Pine clinic, it's in Kitsilano. Kitsilano is a much diff erent ity of care. neighbourhood today than it was 20 years ago. I want to also talk about what's happening in other I mentioned that in East Vancouver, Raven Song will provinces, because the fact is that other provinces are be in the epicentre of a whole host of new supported so- moving ahead very, very aggressively in the direction of cial housing facilities for the city of Vancouver, where more interdisciplinary teams in primary care and more a complex and vulnerable population will be concen- community health centres. In Alberta they call them trated. So it makes sense to actually increase and move family care clinics. In Ontario they call them commun- services to where the patients are, as time and demo- ity health centres. graphics change. In the case of Alberta, and this is a fairly recent initia- At Pine clinic they see 7,500 clients per year. As I men- tive on the part of the Alberta government, they decid- tioned, that's a diff erent area today than it was 20 years ed to go in this direction of far more community health ago. I used to practise close by there at the Vancouver centres, or rather family care clinics, just a few years ago. Animal Emergency Clinic 20 years ago, and it was quite Within a very, very short period of time they put three diff erent then. Most of Pine's client base will be transi- new clinics in place. Th ey then did a massive communi- tioned to the nearby youth clinics at Raven Song, Th ree cations eff ort with people in all parts of the province, Bridges primary care clinic in downtown Vancouver and both communities as well as care providers, and asked East Van public health youth clinic at Broadway and people to come forward with proposals for more family Commercial. Youth will also have access to Boulevard, care clinics. Broadway and Knight youth clinics. At the present time they have approved an additional Vancouver Coastal has been working with physicians 24 family care clinics, which they are moving forward in the primary care system and has come to an agreement, with very aggressively. In the case of Alberta, when they I believe, with fi ve of nine physicians to continue seeing move on something they do move quickly. Th e fi rst ones patients, albeit oft en in a diff erent kind of a model. But I were up and running, I think, within about a year or 18 mentioned that the new changes that we have to the bill- months of conception, and the plan is to do the same for ing code allow doctors to spend more time with patients. the next 24. Th ey say, as the minister does, it might in- South, Evergreen and Pacific Spirit will remain as clude primary care. What is primary care? Well, it might community health centres with the interdisciplinary include, in the future, a visit to your family doctor, a con- team. Th e physicians will go on a fee-for-service basis. sultation from a nurse practitioner, advice from a phar- So those facilities will still be available for all the other macist or an appointment with a dietician, therapist or ancillary needs of patients that are sent to that facility by Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4361

their physician. constituents. As I've said — and I could continue to stand up and That approach isn't necessarily the same approach say the same thing — this is about the right resources you would need in another part of Kamloops. We'll take at the right place at the right time. It's about appropri- Aberdeen, for example, with a relatively high-income, ateness. It's about spending our dollars where they are well-educated population that is less vulnerable, less most needed to support a highly complex and vulner- complex. It's about the appropriateness of care — put- able population. ting the resources where they are needed. While Ontario is doing the same approach we are, ad- J. Darcy: As I said, we will come back to the specifi c dressing the complex high-needs population, it doesn't clinics. But I would like to ask the minister whether he mean they don't change that as the population changes. has studied the experience of Alberta and whether he's In fact, if the member wants to look at where Ontario is studied the experience of Ontario, as well, where there versus British Columbia, a report by the Health Council are 114 community health care centres in place. of Canada from the Commonwealth Fund international A recent study by the University of Waterloo health sci- health policy survey shows that where you live actually ences faculty says that Ontario community health centres does matter. have shown that the most eff ective, effi cient and aff ord- Th ey show that some numbers of Canadians don't have able means of delivering primary health care is through a regular doctor. When you look at the diff erent prov- an "upstream approach." We've all used that language: inces, no regular doctor or place of care: Manitoba and upstream interventions in order to avoid downstream Nova Scotia, 7 percent; province of Quebec, 15 percent; spiraling health care costs. Alberta and Saskatchewan, 6 percent; Newfoundland, 5 It says that CHCs have been successful in meeting percent; New Brunswick, 5 percent; Ontario, 4 percent; the health needs of managing complex, chronic disease British Columbia, 3 percent. as well as vulnerable populations, but many parts of the You know, we could toss around numbers a lot. Th e province still don't have access to them. Th ey only serve member is saying that community health centres work 4 percent of the population. Th e plan in Ontario is to well for high-needs, vulnerable populations. I certain- change that considerably. ly agree. Th at means we have to put them where those Th is report says that improving health outcomes in populations are. Ontario are a direct result of the role of Ontario com- [1555] munity health centres, which very directly deal with so- cial determinants of health. Th ere is also research out of J. Darcy: Th e minister is choosing to completely dis- Ontario that shows there's a 20 percent decrease in emer- regard the patients I referred to. We're not just talking gency room utilization by the high-needs people who numbers. We're talking about patients and the very high were served by these clinics. morbidity group, which we agree deserves robust inter- I wonder if the minister could speak to…. He says we disciplinary primary care and will be receiving it. Th at should be refl ecting best practices, as we move forward, still ignores something like 9,000 to 10,000 patients who and get value for money. Has he studied the experience also have very high needs, and the minister is insisting of Alberta and Ontario, and why does he think it's not that they need to migrate to a fee-for-service system. appropriate to learn from those best practices when it So it's the minister, in fact, who is saying that we need comes to British Columbia? to go with one-size-fi ts-all and who is saying that a model [1550] that has served well…. It can certainly be improved — no doubt. Th e clinics where the nurse practitioner positions Hon. T. Lake: We have looked across the country and have been cut? Absolutely. Instead of taking the doctors elsewhere as well. Th ere are good models of care, some of off alternative payment plan, why not put the nurse prac- which would transfer to B.C., and some people are look- titioner positions back in? Why not put the pharmacist ing at B.C., taking what we're doing and implementing position back in? Instead, we're moving completely in it as well. the other direction. Again, I just want to talk about appropriateness. I don't I want to talk some more about some of these actual think there's any question that for a high-needs, vulner- patients. Let me talk for a minute about Mid-Main. I'd able population, integrated primary care — a community like to talk about Mid-Main, where in fact there has been health centre — is a really great approach. a budget reduction — or there will be — of approximate- I can speak for my own community of North Kamloops. ly $400,000. Not far from my constituency offi ce is the King Street On the scheme of the minister's Health budget, that Clinic. King Street Clinic is exactly what we're talk- may not seem very much. What it actually means for ing about here. It serves a high-needs population with Mid-Main is that the services they now provide…. Let multiple co-morbidities. It is in a low-income neigh- me just check the numbers here. Th ey serve something bourhood, and it has been a life-saver for many of my like 8,000 to 8,800 patients. 4362 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

They serve and they have chronic disease group payment plan. So I want to correct the member on that. meetings, group visits for patients with a number of Mid-Main's most complex clients will be transferred different chronic conditions. Some of these are in the over to Raven Song, which isn't downtown Vancouver. very high needs group, but most of them, in fact, are It's, by my calculation, 15 blocks away from Mid-Main, in the moderate- to high-needs group. This includes with excellent transit service in that area. Th e resources 281 diabetic patients, 103 patients with chronic kidney are being transferred to provide seven-day-a-week, disease, 62 with congestive heart failure, 89 with chronic 12-hour-a-day service. So if you are a complex patient obstructive pulmonary disease. currently going to Mid-Main, you will be able to go to Th ose patients are served — or they have been in the Raven Song, which is not very far away, seven days a week, past, although that's about to change because of these 12 hours a day. Th at is better service than what they are cuts — by a combination of family physicians, a nurse receiving now, and it meets their needs far better. practitioner, a pharmacist and the medical offi ce assist- ants who coordinate that care. J. Darcy: I did not ever once say that Mid-Main was As a direct result of those cuts of $400,000, the phys- closing. I know it's not closing. In fact, what I said was…. icians at Mid-Main are being told they really have no And it's very, very good news if the government and choice but to migrate to fee-for-service. Frankly, that Vancouver Coastal Health have agreed that they will be means that some of the best-regarded chronic disease able to continue an alternate payment plan. Th at's very management programs and preventive programs, not just good news. I'm sure they will be very, very pleased to hear in this province but in this country, are at risk. that. Th at is not something that I believe most of them are When you bring diabetic patients together, they hear aware of at this time, including people I've spoken with from a physician or a nurse practitioner. Th ey're seen by in the last 24 to 48 hours. a physician or a nurse practitioner, talk to a pharmacist. Th e fact still remains…. If they continue an alterna- Th ey have an education program. Th ey do peer support. tive payment plan, then I will say: "Good for Vancouver So it's huge results in terms of maintaining their condi- Coastal Health and good for the minister for revers- tions, not worsening their diabetes, and reducing costs ing their position on this." Th eir budget has been cut by signifi cantly, by the millions, for the health care system $400,000. A nurse practitioner…. — if we were to take this program and extrapolate on it elsewhere. Th ey do the same with chronic kidney disease Interjection. patients and patients with COPD and other conditions. Th ey also do some really, really critical work of go- Th e Chair: Minister. Comments through the Chair, ing out and doing what they call medical home visits please. We'll let the member say her remarks, and then for the frail elderly in their homes. We're not talking aft erwards you will have an opportunity to respond. about home support. Th ese are medical homes, creat- ing medical homes, and going to these patients' homes J. Darcy: A nurse practitioner has been laid off . A — sometimes a physician, sometimes a nurse practitioner, pharmacist has been laid off . Several medical offi ce as- sometimes a pharmacist, depending on the need — keep- sistants who coordinate these group visits for diabetic ing our frail elderly as healthy as they can possibly be in patients and other patients with chronic conditions have their own homes. been laid off . Th at is a fact. Th ose medical offi ce assistants It's not saying they have to travel seven or ten miles haven't been transferred anywhere. Th e nurse practition- — you know, these are frail elderly — to the Raven Song er hasn't been transferred to Raven Song. Th e pharmacist clinic downtown. But it's in their own homes, being hasn't been transferred to Raven Song. It will be a change cared for in their own homes, being kept as healthy as in the kind of services that that clinic, which is so highly they possibly can, keeping them out of emergency rooms regarded, will be able to deliver. and acute care hospitals, ensuring that as few as possible I'd like to move now, if I could, to the budget cuts for of them end up being alternate level of care in acute care the other clinics. You know, the minister can roll his eyes, hospitals and keeping them out of residential care as but the fact is that…. long as possible. Does the minister think it makes sense to cut the Mid- A Voice: Point of privilege. You're not supposed to Main budget so that these kinds of programs will not be comment on what people are doing in the House. able to continue? [1600] J. Darcy: Okay, I withdraw my comment about the minister rolling his eyes. Hon. T. Lake: Well, I'm afraid the member is engaging Let's talk about costs for a minute. Yesterday, or maybe in fl ights of fancy, because she doesn't have her facts cor- it was the day before — I've lost track; these estimates ses- rect. In fact, at Mid-Main it will remain open, and the sions tend to blend one into the other — we'd been talk- doctors will continue to be paid under an alternative ing about health budgets, and we'd been talking about Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4363 various costs to health authorities that come as a result of Th is is about increasing supports, increasing the re- either their decisions or government decisions. sources that are available for a highly complex vulnerable Yesterday — I think it was yesterday in this House — I population in Vancouver. questioned the minister about the cost of hydro, the in- creased hydro costs to health authorities as the result of J. Darcy: I didn't say I was bad in math. I said it wasn't this government's hiking of hydro rates. Th e minister…. my best subject. If I could just return. I did not say that You know, I didn't have a chance to check the transcript the fi gures I cited covered the budget for Mid-Main. I of Hansard from yesterday, but the increase, I believe the didn't say that. minister said, was $740,000, something like that — the Let me repeat what I said, and I'm sure that the record increase in the hydro bill. will show it. Th e cost of the budget for the four urban Th e minister made a point several times as I asked that clinics and Pine clinic combined was $3.717 million. question, as it related to every health authority, of saying We got those numbers directly from Vancouver Coastal that the hydro rate increases amounted to 0.002 percent Health in the last 24 hours. I know that the budget for or 0.001 percent. Mid-Main…. Th ere's a dental clinic, and there's a medical [1605] services clinic — $1.7 million and $2 million respectively. Well, the fact is that the total budget for 2013-2014 for Th e cut is what I referred to. I said explicitly that the cut the four urban clinics and the Pine clinic combined was to their funding was $400,000, approximately. $3.71 million, which equals 0.001 percent of Vancouver Really, what we're talking about by way of…. I said Coastal's budget — 0.001 percent. Th e cuts to Mid-Main we're making these signifi cant cuts to this primary care — $400,000. I'd have to do the really quick math, so that clinic budget, which now totals $3.7 million. And then I increases that number a little bit. But we're still talking talked about a $400,000 cut to Mid-Main. Th ey are diff er- about a very, very small percentage of the Vancouver ent clinics. I fully understand that. Th e Mid-Main clinic Coastal budget. Th e minister was very dismissive yes- has a community board. It has its own building. It em- terday of any fi gures that had 0.00 in them. Th is one ploys the physicians. So it is a diff erent fi nancial arrange- does — the cost of the primary care clinics that are go- ment. I just do want to clarify that. ing to be cut. But the minister did not respond to my question re- We also talked in the last couple of days about the garding how it is that we can discuss in estimates and cost of the clinical and systems transformation project, the minister is not prepared to really countenance any which is going to cost the government $840 million over questions when it comes to spending $840 million on a ten years; $72 million for each of the next three years for computer system, yet these kinds of cuts to primary care Vancouver Coastal Health. clinics seem to be completely acceptable. Does the minister believe, in the broad scheme of [1610] things, that it is acceptable that we can have $740,000, which a health authority has to pay for hydro costs, that a Hon. T. Lake: I have been answering the questions. I computer system that was deemed on 12 out of 13 factors don't know why the member would suggest that I have to be of high risk…? Th ose things go by unquestioned, no countenance to answer the questions. I've been an- yet 0.001 percent of the Vancouver Coastal Health budget swering the questions. I just don't agree with her — what needs to be cut, taking away services in communities that a shock. Let me correct the member again. patients have relied on for many years and breaking the Th e total budgets for the four urban primary care clin- attachment to their family doctors in many cases. ics — Pacifi c Spirit, Raven Song, South and Evergreen — and Pine were a total of $3,717,312. Th e total budget in Hon. T. Lake: Th e member did confess to not being '14-15 for the new combined services at Raven Song is very good with math, so let me help a little bit here. Th e $4,053,210. Th at's an increase of about $400,000 going '13-14 budget for the four urban primary care clinics and to serve the high needs vulnerable population that we're the contract with Mid-Main totalled $5,244,801. Th e talking about. Th is is not a cut. Th is is an increase in re- total budget for '14-15, with the redesign to increase ser- sources. If the member just doesn't want to acknowledge vices to highly complex vulnerable patients, is $5,177,446, that, that's fi ne. I appreciate that. which is a diff erence of $67,355. At Mid-Main there will be some savings in administra- However, there are fi ve physicians going over to a fee- tion. Th ere is one nurse practitioner that will no longer for-service. Th at is on top. Th e average GP bills about be funded. Th at's true. However, two new nurse practi- $200,000 a year, so there's $1 million more. When you tioners will be established at Raven Song. Th is is adding add the $1 million in physicians' services on top of the resources where they are needed. increased resources to support primary health care, I don't know how many more times or how many we've gone from $5,244,801 to $6,177,446, approximate- more ways I can say it, but obviously the member is not ly. Th is is based on the average GP billing. So the mem- convinced. However, she's not likely to convince me that ber is wrong. this is something that isn't going to increase services for 4364 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

a highly complex, vulnerable population. Th at's what we teens and early 20s. One of my greatest concerns, if these clinics should be doing. are removed from their neighbourhood settings, is that the people who need them most will not be able to access them. We're doing it at Raven Song. We're doing it at King "Friends who work, in a variety of jobs throughout the city, with Street. We're doing it at Blue Pine Clinic in Prince George. those who have multiple barriers…. In speaking with them re- Th ese are all excellent examples of multidisciplinary, in- garding transit, not one of them said that they provide transit fare tegrated community health centres meeting the needs of to their patients' clients. Th ey're not allowed to do so. I remember some days it was hard enough to get out of bed and brush my hair, a highly complex, vulnerable population. let alone get to an appointment that was halfway across town." Th e minister has stated that resources that are cur- J. Darcy: I do need to point out, and I hope the minis- rently available at Pacifi c Spirit and, particularly, at Pine ter appreciates this, that the patients who migrate to fee- Free youth clinic will be available at Raven Song and for-service, who presently are served in these four urban elsewhere. clinics and the Pine Clinic for $3,717,312…. When they My question for the minister is specifi cally what num- migrate to fee-for-service, it will in fact be an additional ber of FTEs will be added to Raven Song — which is in cost to the health care system. my constituency of Vancouver-Fairview, just as Pacifi c Spirit and Pine Free are just outside the borders of my Interjection. constituency —, to ensure that service at its current level, leaving aside the question of the distance of travelling, J. Darcy: No, no. But it won't come out of Vancouver will be available to young people particularly? Coastal. It comes out of…. What other resources will be put in place, and what If the minister is saying this is a more effi cient use of re- measures at Raven Song will be in place to ensure that sources by focusing it on those who are most at need, the young people who are coming for treatment and advice fact of the matter is that switching those 8,000 to 10,000 on a range of issues that are oft en emotional won't be or more patients onto fee-for-service simply means that spending time in waiting rooms with people who are be- you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, because the medical ser- ing treated for drug addictions? vices premium budget is under the Ministry of Health. Th ey may not come under Vancouver Coastal's budget Hon. T. Lake: So 6.85 FTEs will be redirected to Raven then — at a very, very modest cost, I will say — they will Song to meet the expanded coverage. Do you know what? come under the medical services premium budget. Obviously, we all have a lot of sympathy for anyone that I think it would helpful now if we moved to speak to suff ers from the types of challenges that the member de- some of the specifi c clinics that are there. I've talked about scribes. Mid-Main. I know that my colleagues from Vancouver– It's important to note that Pacifi c Spirit and South Point Grey and Vancouver-Fairview have questions they will remain open. Pacifi c Spirit is on Arbutus Street and would like to ask, so I will let them continue. West 43rd. Th e member knows the area well. He knows that that is not an area where a lot of highly vulnerable G. Heyman: I have a question about resources that will people live, that in fact the East Vancouver area around be in place if, in fact, the plan to close Pacifi c Spirit and the Raven Song clinic is far more likely to have a vulner- Pine Free Clinic go ahead. I also want to just take the op- able client base, especially with the movement of the so- portunity to let the minister know a very small sample of cial housing that's going on there. some of the communication that has come into my offi ce It's important to understand, too, that South, Evergreen with respect to this. and Pacifi c Spirit are community health centres. While One case was a young woman who had been a patient their doctors will move to a fee-for-service model in the at Pacifi c Spirit when she was dealing with a very diffi cult community, and that is being negotiated with them at the time in her life with drug addictions. I met her. She came moment, they will still be operated by Vancouver Coastal, all the way in from the Fraser Valley to attend a meeting and they will continue to off er a range of services that can to discuss the closure of clinics. She said: be accessed by patients, as the member described. "To the passerby, you would not know that each morning I I would think that the member would want us to shift take my medication for anxiety and depression and that I turn resources, increase resources to where the population has my will and life over to something greater than me so that I do not resort to the life that I used to live. What that life looked like, the highest needs. I would argue that that is what's going which started to change just over a decade ago, was not a pleasant on here: moving resources from a less vulnerable popu- place. It was riddled with addiction, eating disorders, darkness lation to one that is highly vulnerable. With the growth and eventually death. in terms of the supported housing that will occur in that "As I stated, my mother was at a place where she was ready to area, it will continue to increase in the future. plan my funeral. Now a mother myself, I grieve for her sadness and hopelessness in that place. [1615] G. Heyman: With respect to the minister, there are "Many of the issues that Pine Free Clinic and Pacifi c Spirit ad- diff erent kinds of vulnerabilities at Pacifi c Spirit, on the dress with young people were obstacles that I faced in my late whole, and a diff erent set at Pine Free. I mean, Pine Free Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4365

Clinic was established 40 years ago specifi cally because 12 hours a day, to serve a highly vulnerable complex of the needs of young people, oft en in vulnerable emo- population that is more likely to be found in the areas tional states, surrounded by a social milieu of the time of Raven Song than it is in the area around Pacifi c Spirit. that while diff erent from today's social milieu, was equal- ly challenging. G. Heyman: Before I sit down and turn questions to [1620] my colleague from Vancouver–Point Grey, with whom It's now being proposed that these youth go to a dif- I've been working on particularly the issue of Pine Free ferent place where they will receive a diff erent kind of and will be working with on the issue of Pacifi c Spirit, I attention. Th ey have no guarantee that the kind of clin- just wanted to raise a point that was raised with me in an ic they're going to will give them the kind of support- e-mail from a senior research scientist at the University of ive attention that they have got at Pacifi c Spirit that has, Victoria, who is also concerned about the closure. frankly, by their own testimony at public meetings, saved He says simply — in fact, it was an e-mail to you, I be- many young people's lives and futures. lieve, on which we were copied: "I don't think I have to At Pacifi c Spirit we have frail seniors who are now be- remind you of the disastrous rollout of community men- ing asked to travel a long, long distance from Kerrisdale tal health some years ago, where patients were released to the eastern part of Vancouver, in Vancouver-Fairview. from institutions caring for them without the required Th at is not an easy trip for many people to take. It is not community services being ready." He goes on to say that an easy trip by transit, and for many of them, that's the if you and Vancouver Coastal are so convinced that the only option they will have. model you're pursuing is right, why not test it side by side I appreciate the minister providing me with a break- with the existing model, rather than making a no-return down of the number of FTEs that will be added to Raven decision that may not be the right one, and ensure that Song. I don't think he addressed the issue of what other the two can be weighed against each other? resources will be available to, for instance, ensure that young people aren't stuck in waiting rooms with people J. Darcy: My colleague the member from Vancouver- who, while I respect them, are dealing with a diff erent set Fairview asked a question about the FTEs. Th e minis- of challenges and recovering from drug addictions. Th is ter said 6.85 FTEs. I wonder if the minister could break is not, in my view, a mix of clientele that's either healthy down what those are — physicians, nurse practitioners. or contemplated by health policy or legislation. Who are they? And what was the number previously in the clinics where those positions are going to be elim- Hon. T. Lake: Th e redesign actually improves access to inated? services through the creation of the youth hub at Raven [1625] Song. Additional physician hours at the Th ree Bridges primary care clinic, increase the primary care physician Hon. T. Lake: We don't have the exact breakdown. resources at the East Van public health youth clinic. What we are seeing, of course, is that resources are be- While the member is expressing concern about vul- ing shift ed over to Raven Song. I mentioned that there nerable youth in Kitsilano, the demographics are such are two new nurse practitioners at Raven Song. We will that there is a higher number of highly vulnerable young endeavour to get the exact breakdown of the changes in people in the areas where the resources are being trans- the FTEs. ferred. But that doesn't mean that resources aren't avail- able. I mentioned that Pacifi c Spirit will remain open as D. Eby: On May 20 we held a forum in my constitu- a Vancouver Coastal Health centre, so there will be ser- ency where patients and supporters of the Pine free clinic vices that can be accessed. and Pacifi c Spirit clinic got together. We sent a letter to In terms of frail seniors, there will be physician ser- the Minister of Health, and we sent a letter to Vancouver vices available. Th e member wasn't present earlier when Coastal Health, inviting them to come to hear from we talked about the changes to the billing codes that pro- people fi rsthand and to share their perspectives on what vide incentives for physicians to spend more time with the minister describes as this transfer. None of them chronic complex cases. In a fee-for-service model in the showed up. old days you would just get the one-size-fi ts-all. We've My question is pretty straightforward. Why did they built in diff erent fees now so that a physician can spend not come? Was it a budgetary issue? Or is it simply that more time reviewing the case history of a complex pa- they didn't even bother caring enough to show up to ex- tient, spend more time with the patient and meet the plain this decision to the people aff ected? needs of that patient in a more fulsome manner than [1630] under the old system. Resources are still there for the type of patient that the Hon. T. Lake: Vancouver Coastal undertook a study member describes. We believe this redesign, as I've said looking at the demographics, looking at the population, before, will provide a greater service seven days a week, looking at all the clinics that are operating under the pri- 4366 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

mary health care model in that area and determined that Coastal Health. Coastal Health won't even show up in a redesign would increase the service to that high needs our community and defend their decision to the people population. aff ected by this. Th e minister won't show up to our com- munity and defend the decision to the people aff ected [M. Hunt in the chair.] by this. And the only reason we even found out about this is because layoff notices went out to the staff , and it Th ey worked with the staff and the physicians at the leaked, and Coastal Health had to put something up on impacted sites. Th ey held meetings with a majority of their website. sites to discuss the future vision of the service. Th e ser- Can the minister assure us that he's put some kind of vice will be changed over the next six to eight months. budget in here to enable Coastal Health or his ministry Th at will smooth the transition and help people under- to come out to communities and explain to the people stand the change in service that will be happening to sup- aff ected by this, instead of the slipshod, garbage method port that population. that they have taken to date? I know the member has had opportunity to comment. [1635] David Hall, who is the medical director for primary care in Vancouver Coastal, has refuted the member's com- Hon. T. Lake: Vancouver Coastal has assured us that ments. I won't get into the details of that. they will continue to engage with the community to An event organized by the opposition is certainly…. help them understand the changes. In fact, clients will It's their opportunity and their prerogative to do that. It's be reviewed individually to minimize any chance that a certainly not a responsibility for people to attend. complex client is inadvertently aff ected by this. We will, Vancouver Coastal is doing that work in the commun- through Vancouver Coastal Health, reach out to those ity. We are monitoring the situation and ensuring that the clients and ensure that they are aware of the changes and patients are transferred and assisted, ensuring that they they are aware of where their primary care access will are connected to their physician or a physician that's be. Very vulnerable clients will, in fact, have a transition available to them and that they are aware of the increased care plan created. services at Raven Song going from eight hours a day to 12 Th ere's a lot of work and continued engagement with hours a day, fi ve days a week to seven days a week. those people that are aff ected by this change which, as I mentioned, will result in increased services to the most D. Eby: Th is minister knows very well that Vancouver vulnerable people in our society. Coastal Health is only communicating with our com- munity through their website, through postings on their D. Eby: How can you say that? You don't even know. website, ignoring community meetings. Th e minister You don't even know what the FTEs are. shows up here, says there are 6½ additional FTEs. He doesn't even know who they are. He says, "Don't worry. Hon. T. Lake: Are you fi nished? We've said that we Th ere will be just as many services at Raven Song," but would get a breakdown of the FTEs. Perhaps the mem- he can't even tell us who has been hired at Raven Song ber is…. to replace the four clinics that are closing. It is absolute- ly outrageous, the lack of communication around this. Interjection. He talks about the remarkable work that Vancouver Coastal Health has done looking into the impact of this. Th e Chair: Excuse me, Mr. Minister. But the third-party expert that they hired, Dr. Garey I would remind the members that the minister has Mazowita, the head of family and community medi- the fl oor, and when the minister has the fl oor, he is to be cine at Providence Health Care, said that consolida- speaking. Th ank you. tion will "reduce access to primary care for many high You have the fl oor, sir. needs patients and will eliminate the ability to custom- ize individual clinics." He said: "In light of these policy Hon. T. Lake: Th is will be transitioned over the next considerations, the optics of undertaking significant six to eight months, and all of the vulnerable clients will change…." be transitioned with a care plan. Th ere will be continued community engagement so that the community under- Th e Chair: Member. Member, you are not allowed to stands the changes and those people that are most vul- use your laptop when you are making your presentation. nerable have knowledge that now they can access those needed services seven days a week, 12 hours a day. Th at D. Eby: Oh. Th ank you, hon. Chair. will result in better service. I don't need to read this to the minister, because the minister knows this report very well. He knows very well Th e Chair: If I could just clarify before I recognize the the conclusions of this esteemed expert who looked at member for Vancouver-Kingsway. In a memo from the Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4367

Speaker of February 17, 2014, in item 4 she said: "Unless planning to shut down primary care to Evergreen. So otherwise permitted, electronic devices must not be used point 1 in the defence of this thing doesn't work. Th ere's by a member who is in possession of the fl oor." Th ey are more social housing in our neighbourhood. In fact, allowed, and we can use them, but when you are the Vancouver Coastal Health was part of it, and they didn't member in possession of the fl oor, they are not allowed tell us about it. to be used. Th at's just for clarifi cation. Th e minister says Evergreen doesn't provide multi- disciplinary care. Th ere was a nurse practitioner until A. Dix: Th ey named that rule aft er the Premier. But the fall of last year, which they didn't replace when she I digress. left . You can't destroy the multidisciplinary care and then use the fact that there's no multidisciplinary care as A Voice: Which one? justifi cation for shutting down primary care at Evergreen Health Centre. A. Dix: Th e current one. What the minister is saying — and this is kind of, in Th e minister has the numbers in terms of the budgets a way, the most extraordinary part — is that they're tak- for these health centres, the Evergreen Health Centre. ing care of fewer patients. Th is is according to Vancouver What are the numbers? What's the budget number for Coastal Health on trusty paper. At least 60 percent of pa- 2013-14? What's the budget number for 2014-15, when tients will continue to see their regular doctor. In other this is, as he says, six months implemented? And what's words, serving fewer patients for more money is the de- the budget number for 2015-16? fence of the minister, right? In our neighbourhood, where there is a lot of struggle Hon. T. Lake: Th e member was not present when we — and the Kingsway Continental is, I think, a good ex- canvassed this earlier. In '13-14 the total budget for the ample — we take on the challenges. We don't oppose so- four urban primary care clinics — Pacifi c Spirit, Raven cial housing in our neighbourhood; we embrace it. We're Song, South and Evergreen — and Pine clinic was a total involved in long, year-long processes to embrace the so- of $3,717,312. Th e total budget in '14-15 for the com- cial housing that this government was involved in. Th en bined services at Raven Song is $4,053,210. As I men- as soon as it's accepted, bait-and-switch. tioned, with fi ve physicians at this time — there could Vancouver Coastal Health said this was a two-year be more — moving over for fee-for-service, that would process, the review of Evergreen. And you know when be about another $1 million of investment in primary they're having their fi rst consultation in our neighbour- health care. hood? Th irty-two days aft er they laid off the staff . How [1640] is that way of doing business justifi able? In addition, I might add, they actually have an agreement with the A. Dix: Specifically, the Evergreen Health Centre community that they broke to do this in terms of consul- budget for 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16. Th e minister tation. How is it justifi able, when you're making that fun- has the answer. I heard him. I was listening to the debate damental change, when we're working with Vancouver when he provided it before. Can he just give us that basic Coastal Health on signifi cant social issues, that you can information for the Evergreen Health Centre? make this substantial change to a community health cen- tre that serves the community well? Hon. T. Lake: I apologize to the member. I didn't say that earlier for each of the clinics. So I apologize. I Hon. T. Lake: I don't believe the member honestly be- don't have that. I will endeavour to get that. But again, lieves that Vancouver Coastal is trying to devise a system Vancouver Coastal is a very large organization. They to thwart the needs of the people in the community. I would hopefully have that information, and we will en- mean, that's amazing to me that the member would even deavour to get it for the member. contemplate that they would sit around a board table and say: "How can we best jeopardize the health care needs A. Dix: I'm delighted that they'll provide it. Hopefully, of this community?" we'll get that before the end of estimates. I don't think that's what they do. In fact, I know what Th e minister said — and I'm speaking of the Evergreen they do. Th ey try to service the community in even bet- Health Centre — in his explanation for the decision that ter ways with increased service, longer days, more days, new social housing had been developed around Raven more resources. Song, and this was used as justification. Vancouver Evergreen had physicians and, at one time, had a Coastal Health has been part of the process in our com- nurse practitioner. It doesn't have the ancillary services munity, near Evergreen, at the Kingsway Continental, of Raven Song. Th e nurse practitioner left . Th e position where there's new social housing. was not fi lled because there was not an adequate case- Vancouver Coastal Health was part of those consulta- load, and the patients were transferred to the care of tions and never, not once, did they mention they were their physicians. 4368 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

If the member is suggesting that the health care sys- J. Darcy: Well, I think it is shocking that we could tem employ people where there is not enough need, rath- spend all of this time discussing this issue. We could have er than put them where there is greater need, I guess it raised this in the Legislature on a number of occasions, would be unusual, I think, for anyone to advocate that and the community has spoken out very strongly. And position. It's certainly not the position we advocate. then we come to estimates, and the minister justifi es this [1645] right up the line without knowing any of the hard facts about what's actually happening in those clinics. A. Dix: Just to make it clear, we're adding need in our I just want to go back to Evergreen for a moment. If community. Vancouver Coastal Health was part of that. anybody…. I've been to meetings with patients of the And this is a betrayal of the community and a betrayal of Evergreen community clinic, together with the mem- those discussions. It is. When you're working with people ber for Vancouver-Kingsway, and those patients all gave day by day to take on a diffi cult project and the commun- testimonials about the kind of care they receive from a ity accepts the project but then you shut down the service nurse practitioner. I want to underline what the member that was linked to that project aft er the agreement was from Vancouver-Kingsway has said. Vancouver Coastal made, people have a legitimate reason to feel betrayed. Health's consultation around this has been abysmal. And they do feel betrayed. I know that the minister has met with the director re- Th ey're shutting down care. Th ousands of people are sponsible for this program, but I would strongly encour- losing their family doctor. Th is is a serious question in age the minister, as I have in the past, to spend some time our community, and the minister can't even tell us the and come down and talk to some of those health care basic budget numbers for Evergreen Health Centre. providers and talk to some of those patients because their Hopefully, we'll get them. perspective on this is very, very diff erent. Th e consequences for the health centre are signifi cant. Th e minister has not yet responded to the question As anyone who looks at Evergreen Health Centre or looks about…. I guess I could keep asking and keep not getting at the health needs of our community knows, they are an answer. Th e minister keeps talking about the 5 percent signifi cant, and they're not needs that we hide from as a most vulnerable parts of the population and continues community. It's a community that supports one another. to ignore that there are thousands of other patients who I think the question I have, given the engagement that may not be in the highest, highest risk but also have se- the community has had with Vancouver Coastal Health vere health needs. on very signifi cant issues, is: how can you have a consul- Just a couple of those…. One of those people in par- tation aft er you've sent out layoff notices? If the minis- ticular is a case, a person that I met, together with the ter is arguing he's doing the right thing, why didn't they member for Vancouver-Kingsway, and I raised the issue bother talking to anybody in the community for two directly in the Legislature. Th is was Tita and Ducolo years? Why didn't they bother talking to people in the Tocol, who are patients at Evergreen Community Health community when they, without telling anyone, elimin- Centre. Ducolo has had open-heart surgery, suff ers from ated the nurse practitioner position, eliminated youth congestive heart failure and needs to be checked weekly programs and now eliminated the doctors? for blood clots, and they're not considered to be in the I mean, this is a dramatic change in what the Evergreen most at-risk category that is going to have the services of Health Centre does. Is there any plan? I'll ask this just the robust primary interdisciplinary care. fi nally, because we're going to, obviously, continue our ef- [1650] forts to convince the government of a diff erent approach I think it's really, really important, and I want to urge and a diff erent direction. Are there any plans to add ser- the minister once again that he both bring the facts about vices to the Evergreen Health Centre? what is actually going to happen with those clinics — what the FTEs are going to be, what the budgets are now, Hon. T. Lake: As I mentioned, Evergreen was not a what they will be in the future — and that we have that community health centre in the same way that Raven before us tomorrow. I want to also encourage him to take Song is. Th ere was not enough caseload for the nurse the time and go and speak to some of the people who are practitioner position to be maintained, and those re- directly aff ected by some of these cuts. sources have been shift ed over to Raven Song, where Th e member for Vancouver–Point Grey was told that there is a demand. according to rules, he couldn't read from a computer de- Physicians at Evergreen can go to a fee-for-service vice. I do want to, however, refer to that same document, model and provide services. In fact, at Evergreen, 1,600 because the document by the external reviewers, con- of the 1,800 patients will either retain their existing phys- ducted in the fall of 2013 and completed and submitted ician or be off ered service with a physician they may have in December 2013, did not recommend the closing or seen at the clinic before. We'll certainly work with other the reduction of the primary care interdisciplinary ser- remaining patients to ensure that they are connected with vices at those clinics. services as well. Vancouver Coastal conducted two reviews. One was an Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4369

internal one. Th e other was an external one. Th e exter- centres; the current FTEs at those clinics, the breakdown nal one did not recommend that that happen and, in fact, of them and which positions they are — meaning phys- recommended quite the opposite. In fact, what it recom- ician, nurse practitioner, medical offi ce assistant and so mended…. It pointed to that other 15 to 20 percent of on. In fact, I think it was 14 physicians who received lay- people who also have severe risks. It also recommended off notices or who were told that their services would very strongly that…. It said that there had been a weak- be terminated as of October 31 — 14 physicians, 16 pri- ness of leadership, lack of clarity by Vancouver Coastal mary care staff . Health about the objectives of some of these clinics, and it In both cases, this is covering South, Pine, Pacifi c Spirit recommended that, in fact, many of those patients would and Evergreen. What are the new positions? Which ones continue to be served by robust interdisciplinary teams. will remain? What are the new positions and the FTEs for It also said, very importantly, that Vancouver Coastal's each type of position at the Raven Song clinic? community clinics off er the sole community-based op- Th e minister also indicated earlier that the physicians portunity for employment in the multidisciplinary pri- at Mid-Main would be continuing on an alternate pay- mary care sector for nurse practitioners, who represent ment plan. If he could also confi rm that tomorrow, that a valuable resource, trained specifi cally for primary care, would be greatly appreciated. but who are underutilized and underemployed in B.C., My colleague was missed yesterday or was tied up yes- largely due to the lack of employment opportunities in terday when we were talking about rural health. He has a precisely such settings — those settings being primary couple of questions he'd like to put on the record. care centres. The last piece. I do want to quote directly from S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister and staff for being the recommendations of the external review. It says: here. Sorry about this. I'll leave the question with the "Consistent with provincial community integration agen- minister and his staff , if I can get a response at some other da, consider strengthening and diversifying the current time, because I've missed my slot. UPC" — urban primary care — "clinic interdisciplinary I met with Anne Ostwald's grade 12 social justice teams by integrating additional RNs, mental health and class in Port Alberni at the Alberni District Secondary addiction counsellors, social workers, etc., from other School. Th ere is a subgroup. Th ere are fi ve or six students Vancouver Coastal Health community programs." that have been working on youth mental health issues. In fact, they advocated strengthening the programs Th is is in the Alberni Valley. Th ey have identifi ed from rather than weakening them. I wonder if the minister their work…. Th ey researched this. All of them have had could respond to that. some experience with mental health issues in the family, amongst peers or amongst themselves. I applaud them Hon. T. Lake: I believe that's exactly what I've been for doing this. saying — that they have strengthened by consolidating Th ere are several items that they raised concerns about. resources into a seven-day-a-week, 12-hour-a-day facil- Th ere is a six- to eight-week wait-list for youth in the ity to serve vulnerable, complex patients. Th is was the Alberni Valley that are seeking help for mental health review that was done that showed that there was a mis- issues, and many need help now. match between demand and supply, that they were pro- Next, there's some need for one-to-one, but a com- viding services for a population that didn't have the needs puter was recommended. But real people are needed, in for those services — at least not a good match. Th is was their opinion, for help also. to better match the population with the services. Th at's Th ere are issues that they found. Th ere are shortfalls what they've done in this particular case. I've said it in in funding for training personnel in the region, in the all diff erent forms. Alberni Valley, at least relating to mental health for youth. With that, hon. Chair, I would beg the indulgence for Th ey suggested they need more support within commun- a short recess. ities. And there are no youth mental health spaces or beds at all in the Alberni Valley, from their research. Again, Th e Chair: Th is committee stands recessed for about they see that as a shortfall. fi ve minutes. I would note that aft er I met with them, I did a lit- tle bit of research. There was the report done by the Th e committee recessed from 4:53 p.m. to 5:05 p.m. Representative for Children and Youth from April 2013, almost exactly a year before the students raised these [M. Hunt in the chair.] issues. Th e report is Still Waiting: First-Hand Experiences with Youth Mental Health Services in B.C. I noted that J. Darcy: Before we leave this subject, I just want to there are many parallels from the Children and Youth identify the issues that the minister has committed to Representative and the work that these great students get back to us on. Th ose were the current budgets and have done in Port Alberni. the budgets next year for each of the community health I would like to be able to present them with some re- 4370 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

sponses at some point in time — hopefully, before they in those two health authorities. But they will budget for get out of school. It may not work. Again, I applaud the those through their health authorities. work that they do on behalf of the youth in the Alberni Valley. J. Darcy: I want to return to an issue that we talked about at the end of the day yesterday. I want to clarify if Hon. T. Lake: I want to thank the member and thank I really understood the minister correctly. the students as well. It's a great initiative, and it shows I was asking about the Fraser Health review and about that they are interested in the subject. when the report was going to be released. It was origin- [1710] ally going to be released by the end of May and then was Just maybe a couple of sort of summary statements, delayed into June. I thought about it aft erwards. Someone but we'll be happy to get the more specifi c information else said to me that the minister had stated that the re- for you. port is not going to be released. In fact, it's going to be Th ere are 77 acute and tertiary beds in regions across just incorporated into the new strategic and operational the province that are designed exclusively for children review for Fraser Health, but the report will not actually and youth with mental health and substance use issues. be released. So that's one component. I think the member is saying Is that the case? Why is it the case? Th e people of Fraser that there are services that are required in the community. Health, which include my constituents, have been wait- When you think about family physicians, a lot of family ing a very, very long time. Th ey were not given the op- physicians are, perhaps, challenged dealing with men- portunity to have input from patients, from the public, tal health and substance use issues. Over the years that's from health care providers, but they certainly are very been the case. It's a complex, complex subject. eagerly awaiting to hear what conclusions the report Through the practice support program, in partner- has reached and what actions are being proposed going ship with the Doctors of B.C., we provide training and forward — but very much, also, an analysis of what it is knowledge to GPs for the identification, assessment, that's gone wrong. You need to understand what's gone management and treatment of children and youth and wrong in order to fi x it. their families where a mental illness is present. To date, [1715] more than 1,800 family doctors have received this train- Will that report be released? If not, why not? ing. Th ey're working with school counsellors, pediatri- cians, psychiatrists and child and youth mental health Hon. T. Lake: The ministerial order was signed clinicians in their communities. October 31 and deposited October 31, 2013. It did out- However, I appreciate that the member wants a little line the timeline, and as mentioned, we are in that time- more specifi c information, so we'll endeavour to get that line still. Th e ministerial order — this is available on our to him. website, so it's public information. I'm just trying to fi nd the right language in the order: "On or before May 31, S. Hammell: I would just like to ask a question on 2014, the board must submit to the minister, in the form bariatric surgery. I don't think it's been covered. I do and manner required by the minister, a strategic and understand that the Ministry of Health had an inter- operational plan in respect of the fi scal years 2014-2015, est in making this surgery more accessible. I know that 2015-2016 and 2016-2017." there are people that have talked to me about asking what For the purposes of this, the Fraser Health Board must the progress was on that surgery. Because we know a bit "(a) prepare the plan with the assistance of the review more about it, largely from back east — that it is eff ective committee, (b) base the plan on the results of the review — people are becoming more used to doing that kind of conducted under section 4, and (c) ensure that the plan surgery. I'm just asking the minister for an update. does all of the following: "(i) describes the results of the review; (ii) identifi es Hon. T. Lake: I'm just trying to get a little bit of context service outcome targets, operational and fi nancial object- here. Th e number of publicly funded bariatric surgeries ives and operational and fi nancial goals; (iii) sets out the and currently being performed on Vancouver Island and strategies needed to achieve the targets, objectives and at Vancouver Coastal. In 2009-10 there were 92; 2010- goals identifi ed under subparagraph (ii); (iv) describes 11, 61; 2011-12, 146; 2012-13, 198; 2013-14, 216. As of how operations will be structured and performed in or- March 31, 2014, there were 171 people waiting for bari- der to implement the strategies set out under subpara- atric surgery. graph (iii). What we plan to do is to increase the resources, so we "(3) Th e board must amend the plan if and as required hope in 2014-15 that we will have 400 cases completed in by the minister until the minister approves the plan." B.C. — a signifi cant increase in the number we're doing Th e actual review is incorporated into the plan as part now. Th at will be the responsibility of all health author- of the document which is the operational and strategic ities to budget, even though the surgeries will be done plan. Hopefully, that clarifi es the process for the member. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4371

J. Darcy: So there will not be a report that is issued? a number of questions regarding CDMR on Vancouver Th ere will not be a report issued on the actual fi ndings Island, nurse practitioners and a couple of other things. of the review. Is that correct? Yes, I will get those to you tomorrow.

Hon. T. Lake: Incorporated into the plan will be a de- S. Simpson: I've got just a couple of quick questions scription of the results of the review. It won't be a sep- for the minister related to two aspects around CF, cystic arate document. It will form part of the operational and fi brosis. strategic plan. Th e fi rst question is a question that I'm asking partly on behalf of my colleague from North Island, who is un- J. Darcy: My colleague the member for Surrey–Green able to be here, who is away from the House on business Timbers is coming up soon, so I'm trying to move a little at the moment. It's in regard to a particular drug that is too quickly, perhaps. used, Kalydeco. It's quite an expensive drug but a drug When will the strategic and operational review for that has proved to be pretty eff ective, it appears, for a Fraser Health be released? very small number of people with a more unique strain, G551D, I think, a strain of cystic fi brosis. I understand Hon. T. Lake: I mentioned in the order that it says "On that there are 12, 15 people in the province who that may or before May 31." Now, we've made a change in govern- have that particular strain. ance, and we have appointed Mr. Wynne Powell to be Th is drug has proved pretty eff ective. I know from chair of Fraser Health Authority. Th at was as recently, I talking to people in the fi eld, medical folks and that in believe, as three or four weeks ago. Mr. Powell is doing the fi eld, as well, that there is also a great hope — and I'll an enormous amount of work, so because of this change have a second question related to this — that some of the in the governance, we may extend that to ensure that he things they're learning from this drug they may be able has the opportunity to fully go through the review and to apply to that larger group of British Columbians who incorporate the results of the review with the board into are facing challenges around cystic fi brosis. the operational strategic plan. My question, though, is…. As the minister will know, [1720] there are a number in that small group of people who are My goal certainly would be to have that done, hope- able to get this drug supported by their plans. Th ere are fully, by the end of June. As I said, we don't want to a number of other people for whom that opportunity is shortchange the process. With the change in leadership, not available to them. that does throw a bit of a wrench into the timeline, but Could the minister give us a bit of an update on two we think that we can accommodate that within a month things? First of all, how is the negotiation going with the or so. industry? I believe it's the pan-Canadian purchasing al- liance. Alberta, I think, is playing a lead. J. Darcy: Does that mean we can expect to see the new [1735] strategic and operational review in a month? How is that discussion going? Is the province contem- plating any support for that small group of families who Hon. T. Lake: Sorry. To be clear, I think it will be up don't have an insurance plan that will support them in to a month aft er the May 31 date indicated in the min- being able to use this drug? isterial order. [S. Sullivan in the chair.] J. Darcy: So we can expect to see the strategic and operational review for Fraser Health at the end of June? Th e Chair: Minister.

Hon. T. Lake: Th at would be my hope. Hon. T. Lake: Th ank you, hon. Chair. Welcome to the committee. Th e Chair: Th e bells are ringing. Th e committee will Cystic fi brosis is a terrible disease, as the member is recess for division. well aware. As the member indicates, there is optimism that ivacaft or, known as Kalydeco, is useful for a small Th e committee recessed from 5:21 p.m. to 5:32 p.m. number — I think the member is correct, about 5 per- cent — of those suff ering from cystic fi brosis. [M. Hunt in the chair.] Cystic fi brosis aff ects an important chemical in the body that is needed to help pulmonary function, lung J. Darcy: Th e member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head function, as well as gastrointestinal function. Th is drug was going to try and get here before four o'clock, and he does have some benefi t to a small population of those af- was not able to. I have questions…. Actually, I think I'll fected by a certain type of cystic fi brosis. Th ere has been copy them and then submit them on his behalf. He has a lot of discussion about it. Th is drug is used in other 4372 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

jurisdictions and has been under review by the Ministry I would agree that you want to make sure that you're of Health. making progress with this. I guess that number…. Th e Th e Ministry of Health relies upon the common drug minister quotes the number roughly in the $300,000 review, which is the pan-Canadian approach to evaluat- range for somebody to be able to have this treatment for a ing drugs. Th e common drug review recommended that year. I would agree with the minister that if at all possible, public drug plans list Kalydeco if two important condi- I wouldn't want an arrangement where the obligation all tions are met — fi rst, that the manufacturer drop the fell to the public purse if there is third-party insurance price substantially to be considered cost-eff ective, as the and benefi t plans that are picking part of that up now. member is aware. Th e reality is that you have to look at a We are talking a small number of people, and I know cost-benefi t analysis when you're looking at these types the frustration for those who don't have the ability to ac- of approaches. You look at the benefi t versus the cost to cess this. So I would hope that there will be progress on the taxpayer. Th e common drug review recommended this and that the ministry would look at whether there's that we list this only if there was a substantial drop in a way to provide some support, hopefully only for a short the price. interim period, for those families who don't have that Secondly, the common drug review said that if you're ability and $300,000 is just too big a hill to climb. going to cover the drug, we need to work with cystic fi - Just one more question regarding this generally. Th ere brosis experts to create criteria for when to stop treat- is a lot of optimism. As I've said in the House before, my ment if a patient isn't showing meaningful response to nephew has CF. I know he's in a trial now, and it's going the drug. Th ose negotiations have been ongoing. For per- very well. He has a much more common strain. Th ey are spective, for anyone following the discussion, currently using some of what they've learned from this in trials the manufacturer is citing over $300,000 per patient per that he's now involved in, and he's seen some signifi cant year for this drug, so it is very expensive. improvement. Time will tell whether that improvement Minister Fred Horne from the province of Alberta has can be sustained and whether it works, but he's got lung been leading the negotiations. He met recently with the function going from about 63 percent to 83 percent in a manufacturers in Toronto. I had a conversation with him short period of time with some drugs. on the phone just the other day about this. While those Now the question will be: can you sustain that over negotiations are ongoing, I can't get into the details of time? Does it have value over time? And, you know, we'll the discussion. It's fair to say we haven't yet reached an all hope for the best. agreement with the manufacturer that is satisfactory to Could the minister, though, tell me: what is the role of the pan-Canadian team, but Minister Horne is redoub- the ministry in terms of support for some of those initia- ling his eff orts, and we hope that we will have something tives that are trying to kind of crack the CF mystery and soon in terms of a decision. trying to fi nd either the treatment that will make this a I think it's important that that second criterion — chronic issue but not, potentially, a life-threatening issue looking at when a patient should be taken off the drug if and manage its growth, or a solution and a cure? What it's not showing a response…. Th e member mentioned work is being done by the ministry in support with med- that some patients that have a drug plan would be cov- ical professionals and with the CF advocacy community ered for this drug. Th e manufacturer actually has, in on that today? many cases, paid for the co-payment for the patients that are covered by third-party insurance. So that is part of Hon. T. Lake: I'm pleased to hear that the member's the discussion as well — whether that policy would be nephew has shown some improvement. Th at's a very maintained if it were to be covered on a public drug plan. good sign, obviously. What would happen if they didn't continue that policy Th e ministry doesn't fund drug trials. Th e manufac- would be that everyone would, perhaps, seek to become turers will fund drug trials. Th e ministry is in the busi- on the public drug plan. ness of delivering health care services. It does not fund Again, huge potential. The data I've seen says that research directly. there's about a 10 percent improvement in lung function, I want to just pick up on a comment about…. Perhaps but then there are other improvements as well. It would other CF suff erers will benefi t from this drug and learn vary from patient to patient. some things from the trials, and if you open up the pool [1740] of patients that could be treated with the drug, it would We are working hard on this. We know how important mean a greater market for the drug and hopefully a lower it is to families that have members suff ering from cystic per-unit cost. When you have a limited number of pa- fi brosis. I know Minister Horne in Alberta has put a lot tients with a new drug, oft en the cost is extremely high of eff ort in and will continue to, and hopefully we'll have to support all the research that's gone into it. an answer soon. [1745] We will be following this very closely and will work S. Simpson: I appreciate the minister's comments, and with Minister Horne in Alberta. Hopefully, as I men- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4373

tioned, we will have some resolution to that soon, if we acute care system. I could read headlines from the '90s, I can attain a reasonable off er from the drug company that could read headlines from the '80s, I could show cartoons protects taxpayers and also, obviously, the patients that from the '70s that all depict emergency room congestion. would be served. No one is saying that we should be satisfi ed with that. We all want to improve emergency department effi ciencies. J. Darcy: Just a couple more questions. One is about Fraser Health immediately opened ten extra beds at Royal Columbian Hospital. When I've raised this issue Eagle Ridge Hospital so that they could accommodate in the past with the minister and called…. While doing some patients from Royal Columbian. Of course, in a strategic and operational review of Fraser Health, I've Fraser Health, with their service delivery model, they try also strongly urged that an immediate, urgent action to accommodate across a whole service so that they can needed to be taken in a number of areas. One of those move some fl ow from one hospital to another. Sometimes was the overcrowding at Royal Columbian Hospital in that can be done quickly; sometimes, not so quickly. Th ey the emergency room. tried to respond as quickly as possible in this particular Th is issue reaches public attention when it gets in the case. As far as I'm aware, since that time in March, the media, which it has repeatedly, as the minister is aware. situation has improved somewhat. We can go back to the Tim Hortons. But the staff who [1750] work in the emergency room will say these things happen Long-term, of course, we are working on the redevel- quite regularly; they just don't make headlines very oft en. opment of Royal Columbian Hospital with an increase in Th ere was a huge crisis in this regard, as the minister beds from 416 to 675 on the campus. Th at is a new men- knows, towards the end of March. Patients had gone into tal health facility, development of a new acute care tow- cardiac arrest in hallways. Th e physicians were speaking er, renovation to the Columbia Tower, renovation to the out, the nurses were, the frontline providers were and pa- health care centre and a new energy centre. Th at is going tients and their families were. While things then abated a forward. Th e fi nal scope, cost and schedule for phase 1 bit, there continues to be a serious, ongoing crisis in the will be confi rmed as part of the business plan. We expect emergency room at Royal Columbian Hospital. that to be complete in the middle of this year. Th ere is a permanent overfl ow area in the emergency Obviously, with that construction, that will provide re- room. A former elected offi cial who is in her mid-80s, lief. In the meantime, Fraser Health is working hard to who wouldn't want her name mentioned, fractured her address the congestion issues, and, as mentioned by the pelvis recently and spent over a week in an overfl ow area member, this review of Fraser Health will look at those in the emergency room. Th is is a common occurrence. I congestion issues as well. don't think I need to read into the record all of the rea- sons why this is bad for patients, bad for patient care J. Darcy: One last question. Nurses have spoken out — increased risk of infections, increased pain, delay in just in the last day about Surrey Memorial Hospital, recovery and all of those sorts of things. where we have a beautiful new emergency room and What assurances can the minister give to my constitu- continuing very, very serious problems of congestion in ents and other people who use Royal Columbian Hospital the emergency room. Nurses have pointed out that a pa- — which is not a community hospital; it's a tertiary care tient in emergency waited more than 92 hours to see an facility for the entire Lower Mainland, sometimes the emergency room physician, and another patient was not province — that there is immediate action being taken seen by a hospitalist for 24 hours. What is the minister's to address the issue in the emergency room at Royal response to that? Columbian? Hon. T. Lake: Th is was the subject of discussion at a Hon. T. Lake: In March there was a surge that caused Fraser Health Authority board meeting in Mission, I be- increased wait times at the Royal Columbian emergency lieve, last night. Th e board chair asked members of the department. We do see this at hospitals around the prov- BCNU to provide documentation because a review with ince, particularly at certain times of the year when fl u Fraser Health has not identifi ed a patient that has waited season is particularly bad. When I visited Prince George, 92 hours. If the BCNU…. Th ey did not provide the docu- and I went to the hospital there, they were particularly mentation, but we would be happy to receive any infor- busy. I believe it was in January. I asked if it was because mation and act upon it. of fl u season, and they said that no, it's slip-and-fall sea- son because of the winter. Particularly, elderly people S. Hammell: Minister, my portfolio area is mental have diffi culty and will fall and oft en suff er hip fractures. health. Th e next series of questions will be in that area. For diff erent reasons, diff erent hospitals will have con- Just to sort of set the context, I'm just doing a very small gestion problems. It's not limited to Royal Columbian slice of this ministry, and I fi nd it very complicated. Hospital. It's not limited to 2014. I could go back into You have all my sympathy in terms of trying to under- every decade, and this is a common occurrence in our stand a budget of $17 billion almost and how complex 4374 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

that is as it goes all over this province. I don't intend to beds, Riverview Hospital — that's a residual funding pri- minimize how much I think that requires in terms of or to closure — and forensic psychiatric services. understanding. Community-based services is the bulk of the expendi- But I do want to start with basics. When we had a brief- tures, and that's $595 million. Th at would include ex- ing with your staff , we were shown some pie charts. Th ey penditures such as the Burnaby Centre for Mental Health were very good, and they explained all kinds of things, and Addictions; assertive community treatment teams; but given that I have a very narrow focus, I'm going to mental health and substance use treatments and inter- ask quite a number of questions around those pie charts. ventions; and mental health and substance use housing I did ask at that time for a breakdown of how much with supports. And $283 million is spent on physician was spent on mental health. I was assured I would be services. Th at's psychiatry within hospitals, mental health given it, and that's fair enough. I would understand that centres, addiction treatment centres and with MCFD you probably have that, because that seemed to me the programming. positioning that was taken. But I haven't received it, so I Drugs for mental health, $168 million. Th at's a no- will ask the questions. charge psychiatric medication plan, plan G, mental I want to put it in context. Last year when we had this health and substance use related to drug expenses in- discussion, I was delighted to hear that when the Mental curred in all other PharmaCare plans. Prevention and Health Commission suggested that 9 cents out of each promotion is $86 million. Th at includes things such as dollar be spent on mental health out of the health care HIV/AIDS services, the methadone program, drugs of budget, we were at 8.7 — I think you told me last year abuse lab screening, the alcohol and drug information — or 8.6, which I thought was quite an accomplishment. line and the Centre for Addictions Research of B.C. Th e minister also mentioned on the record that we Th e member is aware, but I'll just reiterate. In 2014- were spending $1.4 billion on mental health. 15 we have increased some funding to health author- ities related to the initiative improving health services Interjection. for individuals with severe addiction and mental illness, including $2½ million to PHSA to support a secure fa- S. Hammell: Okay. I've heard $1.4 billion. I've got the cility to provide stabilization, assessment and individual Hansard. It was $1.4 billion. I understand it's $1.3 billion. case planning at the Burnaby Centre; $5 million to PHSA I've heard it's $1.2 billion. If we settle on $1.3 billion, I'm working with Vancouver Coastal for high-intensity group quite happy — give or take $100 million here and there. homes; $750,000 to support the inner-city youth men- So if we're looking at $1.4 billion, my fi rst question, of tal health program; $2 million to support two addition- course, is: in this complex system, where does that money al assertive community treatment teams in Vancouver; fl ow? I'm going to ask you fi rst around regional services. and then $10 million to assist the fi ve regional health You have indicated that $11.523 billion is spent on region- authorities in strengthening approved services for that al services. Can you identify for each region how much severely addicted, mentally ill population throughout of that is on mental health? the province. [1755] S. Hammell: Minister, thank you very much. I cer- Hon. T. Lake: I appreciate the member's comments tainly would have appreciated that information prior to about the complexity. Mental health is…. There's no being here, because it makes it very diffi cult to absorb blood test for mental health, and it is an extremely chal- what you've just said and then create some reasonable lenging fi eld. I have agonized over this as a local gov- questions around it. So forgive my redundancy. I'm go- ernment councillor and mayor, as an MLA and as the ing to go back over a few of them. Health Minister now. Th ere are no easy answers, as the [1800] member knows. I'm particularly interested in PharmaCare. How much I understand that the member did write to the min- of the PharmaCare budget is spent on mental health and istry and ask for a breakdown of systemwide expendi- addictions? tures on mental health. I have a systemwide breakdown, not by health authority but in terms of the diff erent types Hon. T. Lake: Sorry, I maybe went through it too of services across the system. Each health authority will quickly, and I apologize that the member didn't receive post that information on their website, and we certainly this earlier. Mental health drugs are $168 million. can fi nd that, take that off the website and provide it to the member. S. Hammell: Of that $168 million, can you break that If we look at 2012-13, $1.3 billion was the operating down any further? Is there a certain amount that is for expenditure for mental health and addictions. In-patient, the methadone replacement, a certain amount for psy- acute and tertiary services — that's $218 million. Th at chotic drugs — like a sense of where that $168 million would be things like health authority, hospital, in-patient is being spent? Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4375

Hon. T. Lake: Th e methadone program is approxi- S. Hammell: Again, is there any of that money that mately $58 million. I don't have a breakdown of each is directed specifi cally towards mental health and ad- individual drug, but methadone is certainly a large part dictions? of the PharmaCare budget for mental health and sub- stance use. Hon. T. Lake: Yes, that includes all medications going to residents of long-term-care facilities, so that would in- S. Hammell: In the PharmaCare budget it is $1 bil- clude some psychotic drugs as well. lion, if we have the whole PharmaCare budget from the pie that I received prior. Under the Fair PharmaCare, the S. Hammell: Can you give me any indication of how methadone treatment or other psychotic drugs or the much of the $44 million you assume is going into mental drugs used for mental health or addiction — are there health and addictions? some in PharmaCare, some being spent through there? I have a number of places that you might fi nd mental Hon. T. Lake: I'll just back up a little bit. Mental health health and addictions costing the system, so you can see drugs, across the entire PharmaCare budget, are $168 where I'm going. I'm trying to fi gure out where the cost million. We've outlined that $27 million of that is plan G, to the system is for mental health and addictions. It says the no-charge psychiatric medication plan. Among the plan G, no-cost psychotic medication. Would we assume other plans, including plan B, which we mentioned, that that that $27 million is largely for mental health issues? would make up the rest of that $168 million. Under plan B, I don't have in front of me the specif- Hon. T. Lake: Yes, those are no cost, because these ic amount of that $44.29 million that is being spent on are lower-income individuals that are on plan G of drugs used for mental health. We will certainly endeav- PharmaCare, which is essentially no cost to the patients our to see if we can break that down. I'm not sure if that that are on those prescriptions. data is available at that level of detail, but we'll try to get it for you. S. Hammell: So that plan G would be largely for men- tal health and addictions — that $27 million. S. Hammell: Th ere's another plan here that I perhaps would like just some explanation of. It's called plan M, the Hon. T. Lake: One second. I'll just clarify, if I may. medical management plan. Could I just understand that? My apologies to the member. Th e no-charge psychiat- If I've just heard the minister correctly, $58 million is ric medication is plan G, so that is the $27.04 million in spent on methadone, $27 million is on plan G — which, 2012-13 serving about 31,000 benefi ciaries. Th ose are the in my math, gets up to $85 million. You said you spent psychiatric drugs recipients that are on income assistance $1.58 million of the PharmaCare budget on…. I'm sorry. and also have other medication needs. Th at is about $300 I may have misunderstood. What is the total amount of million of the PharmaCare budget. Th en the methadone money that you spend from the PharmaCare budget on program would be separate from that. mental health and addictions? Did you give me that? [1805] Hon. T. Lake: Yeah, that was the $168 million number. S. Hammell: I just would like to, before I leave the no- cost psychotic…. Th at has then, I assume, nothing to do S. Hammell: So if on two plans I have $85 million, with psychotic drugs that may be given to seniors in long- and I have some money from the long-term care, I'm still term-care facilities. Okay. I'll just assume that isn't, and short quite a bit — like, almost double. if I'm wrong, you can tell me. [1810] Again, on the diagram I got through the ministry it says plan X, B.C. Centre for Excellence. Now, I do under- Hon. T. Lake: Th at's because the mental health and stand that there has been some shift around that centre, substance abuse–related drug expenditures occur across but is there any of that amount of money, the $130.5 mil- all of the PharmaCare plans. As the member mentioned, lion, that is directed toward mental health or addictions? under plan B, which covers permanent residents of li- censed residential care facilities, that's $44.29 million. Hon. T. Lake: Th e answer is no, that is the HIV/AIDS Some of that would be for mental health issues. program. If we looked at the Fair PharmaCare, some of that I wanted to go back to the member's question about would be mental health medication and, obviously, the long-term residential care. Permanent residents of li- no-charge psychiatric medication plan. I think those censed residential care facilities are covered under plan would be the plans that would have the bulk of the drugs B, which is a total of $44.29 million. Th at would include that are used in mental health treatment. all of the medications going to residents of licensed resi- Th e medication management services plan that the dential care facilities. member mentioned is for medication reviews, and that 4376 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

is paid to pharmacists that are reviewing the medica- Hon. T. Lake: Of the $283 million, $229.6 million tions that patients are on, particularly elderly patients would be fee-for-service, and $53.4 million would be but those that have complex chronic diseases that are on salaried and sessional — alternative payment programs. polypharmacy. My dad is a very good example of that. I'm sure he won't mind me using him as an example. He S. Hammell: I am now back to the place I started. If I sat down with his pharmacist and went through all the heard you correctly, you have not aggregated the amount drugs that he was on and talked about the possible inter- of money that each health region spends particularly on actions, the dosages, things like that. mental health. Th e reason I ask is that I would imagine if It's an eff ort to look at the appropriateness of the num- I have that number, then I could see whether the spend- ber of drugs that any particular patient is on and whether ing per capita was similar or whether some regions de- or not they need to be adjusted. Again, that's a bit of an manded more in terms of mental health. It just gives you expansion of the scope of practice of pharmacists as part a better understanding of where the health dollars are as the primary health care team. going. Th at's why I've asked the question. So I'm restat- ing the question. S. Hammell: I'd like, then, to move to the Medical Services Plan. Th e whole plan is $4 billion. Again, I have Hon. T. Lake: Our capable staff have been able to dig all this array of pie charts. I'm interested in how much of back and fi nd '12-13. Th e '13-14 numbers aren't complete this budget goes towards mental health and addictions. yet from the health authorities. So when we look at men- tal health and substance use expenditures, '12-13: Fraser Hon. T. Lake: I apologize for the delay. Health Authority, $209.833 million. Th at was 7.1 percent I've said the amount earlier, but I wanted to also in- of their budget. For Interior Health Authority, $107.784 clude in my response a particular billing code that we million for 5.8 percent of their budget. Northern Health use to help physicians in this area. Physician services, Authority, $50.574 million — that made up 7 percent MSP billings, are $283 million. Th at would be physician of their budget. Provincial Health Services Authority, services by psychiatrists within hospitals, mental health $161.205 million — that's 6.4 percent of their budget. centres, addiction treatment centres and in MCFD of- Vancouver Coastal, $277.127 million, which is 9 percent fi ces. Th at is what physician billings are from the MSP of their budget. And Island Health, $143.247 million, or budget which go toward mental health and substance use. 7.2 percent of their budget. [1815] [1820] I mentioned earlier, in the committee debates, that we If you go across the system, the average is about 7.2 have changed — through the General Practice Services percent on mental health and substance use, broken Committee, which is a partnership with the Doctors of down the way we have it here. Th at was in '12-13. You B.C. — the way that doctors can bill for their services, can see the difference. It ranges from 6.4 percent in rather than just having a one-size-fi ts-all kind of a bill- the Provincial Health Services Authority; 5.8 percent ing system. One of those fees is a mental health planning in Interior Health; 7 in Northern; 7.1, Fraser; and then fee, which is $100. For the period of January 1, 2013, to 7.2, Island. Th e biggest percentage would be Vancouver April 30, 2014, then, 2,631 physicians billed on 101,223 Coastal, which is not surprising given the population patients for a cost of $10,122,400. that we see — I think a fair refl ection of the population About a third of that total was utilizing this new mental that they're serving. health planning fee, which encourages doctors to spend time with patients and go through their health care needs S. Hammell: That does give a pretty clear sort of in terms of mental health. We also have, as I mentioned range of where things are going. Could we just focus for earlier, programs to help GPs learn more and learn how a minute on the Provincial Health Authority? You have to manage patients with mental health challenges. $161 million there. Could you tell me where the money is spent, on that $161 million? S. Hammell: Under the Medical Services Plan, you have fee-for-service, and you've just described one way Hon. T. Lake: Again, a bit of context. When Riverview that doctors can access that fund. You also have alternate was in full operation, that was Provincial Health Services payments, physician contracts, I would assume — if I'm Authority. Th at funding moved out to the health author- wrong, please tell me — that may include psychiatrists ities. In Kamloops, for instance, we have the Hillside ter- and some of the other contracted people that might be tiary psychiatric centre. Th e money that would have gone in various other places. Other than the doctors' fee-for- to Riverview was pushed out to the health authorities to service, you've named hospitals, MCFD, clinics, and I help in the community-based care and the tertiary care think I missed something. On this pie chart is there any that exists in the health authorities. place that there's a signifi cant amount of mental health, In PHSA, when it comes to mental health and sub- other than the fee-for-service? stance use, the bulk of that would go to forensic ser- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4377 vices at Colony Farm. Th ere would be some that goes to My understanding from the conversation — sorry, I'll Children's Hospital, for instance, for mental health ser- attach another question while I'm up — is that it was par- vices at Children's. tially an issue with some kind of arrangement with the B.C. doctors around the specialist fees that are agreed S. Hammell: We had a little interchange during ques- upon and that the federal government was paying more tion period around the unfortunate incident of the young and that they were poaching our staff because we didn't man that was in the remand centre or the lock-up, and meet that salary. Th at's what I understood from the con- he was chained. I think we had a conversation about him. versation. I'm just confi rming it with you. Th e reason was…. [1830] Just at that time we happened to be having a health care meeting where Wynne Powell was at. I asked him Hon. T. Lake: Our staff do not have an exact date for some direct questions then around the whole issue of the remand assessments — for how long they have been forensic psychiatry and why there was a bit of a surplus. carried out. I'm not sure if we can fi nd that information. I thought, naively, that that money should have been put We will endeavour to try. over to where that need was, given it was in the Provincial Federal psychiatrists in the federal system — the fed- Health Authority. His conversation was just quite sens- eral government made a unilateral increase in their com- ible. It was a very good exchange. pensation, which put them signifi cantly above those in He was indicating that there was some diffi culty with the provincial system. But those in the provincial system salaries around the psychiatrists, the forensic psychia- were also lower than those in general psychiatry. trists. Since then I have heard — and I would like you We worked with the Doctors of B.C., and we have to clarify — that assessments are actually being done at negotiated a signifi cant lift in compensation that has the remand centres rather than moving them to Colony resulted in the results that we are seeing in terms of re- Farm and the psychiatric unit that's out there. cruitment. Th e cost is about $1.6 million, and $450,000 I would just like you to clarify for me whether that is of that will be coming out of the agreement that we have actually happening. Is there a change in policy around with the Doctors of B.C. the care of people who are incarcerated and do need to be overseen by a psychiatrist? S. Hammell: Just before I close in this area. If I'm cor- [1825] rect, I've heard you say that right now — and I'm extrapo- lating — because currently you're not doing assessments Hon. T. Lake: We have experienced shortages in terms at the remand centres, the pressure is off the beds, or of psychiatrists, and our ministry has worked with the there is some ability to have people assessed at Colony Doctors of B.C. and tried to address the recruitment and Farm, and the system is stabilized at this moment. Can retention issues, particularly in terms of salary. I'm happy you just indicate to me whether that's high pressure there to report that we've made some good progress there. right now or whether you're just feeling quite comfort- We are actively recruiting part-time and full-time. We able in terms of the service? do expect over the next few months that we will see the results of that. As of today, there is one full-time psych- Hon. T. Lake: I just had a fl ashback to last night, talk- iatrist and six part-time psychiatrists. So there is a total ing about computer systems. I'm going to say the sys- of 5.2 FTEs. As of mid-June there will be 5.8 FTEs. As tem is stable. Th e staff indicate that while there are a few of October there will be 6.6 FTEs and possibly 7.6 FTEs, people on the wait-list, the court system has not been as another recruit is proceeding through credentialing. aff ected, so no proceedings are being held up. Th at was And 8.4 FTEs represents a full complement of psych- the case when we were at the high point of the challenge. iatrists. We're working towards that full complement, Th at has been alleviated, and people are being pro- which has been a challenge for us. In a relatively short cessed in what we would call a more normal fashion that period of time, given the acuity of the situation, we've we're used to. Again, once we get the extra psychiatrist on had a good response. board by the fall, the wait-list should be reduced and we In terms of assessing inmates at remand centres, that should not have a fl ow issue at all with the court system. has been a practice that's been used historically. We use the Surrey Pretrial Centre for that purpose. When there S. Hammell: I'm just going to quickly switch to capital. is an increased volume that can't be met at Colony Farm, I think there are only a few capital pieces that I just want then the assessments can be done at Surrey Pretrial. At you to report out to me. the moment we are not in that situation. You have the HOpe centre on the North Shore, where there's a $62.2 million acute mental health facility at S. Hammell: When you say "historically," is that ten Lions Gate Hospital. Could you just bring me up to date years or 20 years? Historically — does it mean two or on where that's at? three years back? [1835] 4378 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Hon. T. Lake: I recently toured Lions Gate Hospital Th at is not the case. I know that to be a fact. Vancouver where all my children were born, so it was kind of a Coastal assured us that that was not the case. I just don't nice place to go back, and where I saw Pavel Bure score have the details of it. I remember the issue. I remember his fi rst goal for the Vancouver Canucks, as it turns out, that when I was at Lions Gate Hospital talking with the while I was waiting. staff there, they assured me that that was not the case. Th e Lions Gate Hospital acute mental health centre re- placement project will replace the building there, which is S. Hammell: Minister, if any of the health authorities from 1929, with a new 14,000-square-metre, four-storey were to cut back in terms of the health care area that they acute mental health centre. Th is is the HOpe centre, and spend money on in health care, would you be aware of it is named for that reason in recognition of Greta and that prior to it happening? If there were to be $500,000 Robert Ho for their very generous gift of $10 million to- taken from the mental health budget in Coastal Health wards the project. but not from this area, from somewhere else, would you Th e project is $62.2 million, $24 million of which is be aware of that? coming from the Lions Gate Foundation, and $38.2 mil- lion is coming from the Ministry of Health. It'll be a 26- Hon. T. Lake: Regional health authorities…. I know bed in-patient psychiatric unit. It will have community that the member has looked at the situations elsewhere. mental health out-patient and addictions out-patient You go from diff erent jurisdictions. In fact, in British services; affi liated regional centres, part of the medical Columbia, back before the changes that were made in the school expansion program; and a nine-bay ambulance '90s, we had a whole bunch of hospital districts. In some station as well. jurisdictions that is still the case. In Alberta they took it Construction started in September 2012. We do ex- all away and made just one health service. pect a substantial completion in June of this year, so it's Th e fi ve regional health authorities that we have here getting close. It was looking good when I toured there. in B.C. have strengths and weaknesses, I suppose. Th e Occupancy, we hope, will start to take place in July at low- strengths that I have seen described and I think are very er fl oors as they're completed, and then that will, hope- real are that they represent the populations that they fully, be completed, in terms of a move-in, by September serve very well. What is appropriate in Prince George or of this year. in Vanderhoof — Northern Health would be very aware of the needs and tailor the services they provide to the S. Hammell: In our previous notes it had 2013 that needs of the population. Vancouver Coastal, dealing with it was going to be completed, but June is very close. It a much diff erent population, would cater to that popula- would be very quick. tion by changing their service delivery. I'm going to ask the question that the doctors raised Th e weaknesses are…. You don't have, necessarily, a earlier in the year. Th ey understood that Coast Mental provincewide consistency. Again, all of us like to think Health was going to cut the budget for mental health by that it's the same everywhere. So that, I guess, is a per- $500,000. Th ere was some concern expressed around that ceived weakness, but as I mentioned, on the other hand, number. Th e signifi cance of it was that they were worried it could be argued as a strength because it caters more to about their being an impact on the opening or the oper- the needs of the population it serves. ating of this new facility. I understand the money to run Regional health authorities have service plans that this would come from coast health. are approved by the ministry, which kind of lay out how they're going to deliver their services in diff erent areas. Hon. T. Lake: Vancouver Coastal. If there are relatively minor changes in the way they de- liver their services, the ministry wouldn't necessarily be S. Hammell: Vancouver Coastal. I'm just wanting as- aware of that — depending on the scale and the scope of surance that the operating money is intact. the changes, obviously. [1840] If there were to be a shift of resources to better meet the needs of the population they serve — and we've been Hon. T. Lake: I apologize. I don't have a note in my canvassed a lot here about changes in primary health care binder. I remember when this issue was a concern. Th ere in Vancouver Coastal — they work with the ministry and were some…. I'll just back up a little bit because the mem- let us know the rationale behind what they're doing. We ber mentioned Coast Mental Health. don't get a minute-by-minute or day-by-day update on Coast Mental Health is a non-profit organization. any changes that they do to their service delivery model. Vancouver Coastal, of course, provides the regional [1845] health services, including operation of the HOpe centre. Th ere was some concern, I remember, expressed by some A. Dix: I know the minister made a hockey reference. physicians in North Vancouver that there would be a re- I don't want to take him into overtime. duction in operating. I had a couple of questions about ADHD and the Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4379

growth of ADHD expenditures, particularly with respect J. Darcy: Th ank you, hon. Chair. I had promised that to PharmaCare. Th e national CHSPR information says I would submit the questions for the member for Oak we're seeing, roughly, infl ation of 11 percent nationally Bay–Gordon Head. I have a copy of them for the minister. in spending on ADHD drugs, and 9 percent in British Columbia. So we're in sort of the line of the national aver- Hon. T. Lake: I move that the committee rise, report age from 2007-08 to 2012-13, which are very signifi cant progress and ask leave to sit again. overall increases in diagnosis and spending. As you know, there were very interesting studies done Motion approved. by the therapeutics initiative in 2008. I think it dealt with data probably between 1997 and 2008. It dealt with rela- Th e committee rose at 6:50 p.m. tive age of diagnosis. What it showed was that among girls, 70 percent more were more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD if they were born in December than in PROCEEDINGS IN THE January — and 30 percent more for boys, December to BIRCH ROOM January. What it suggested is that we were diagnosing im- maturity within a grade cohort as ADHD, and we were Committee of Supply medicating it. Th at study ended in 2008, but in the period since that ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FINANCE study was in place, for a number of reasons, the prescrib- (continued) ing of ADHD, including the marketing of drugs — I think we could say — and other social factors, has continued Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section C); D. to increase dramatically. Plecas in the chair. Does the minister not agree with me that it would be a good idea to redo the numbers now, to see if the study Th e committee met at 3:21 p.m. itself had any impact on the relative diagnosis of ADHD? Isn't that the kind of work — the kind of work done by On Vote 22: ministry operations, $127,361,000 (con- the therapeutics initiative — that we need to do more of, tinued). given the very signifi cant budget implications of the rise of diagnosis of ADHD? M. Farnworth: I know that we're up against the Premier's estimates, and we have fi nished nearly all of Hon. T. Lake: Th e subject of ADHD is very interest- the Finance Ministry estimates. I was going to have some ing and controversial, as I'm sure the member knows. questions on executive compensation, but I have had the Th e therapeutics initiative is certainly a valuable resource questions that I had answered and dealt with to my satis- for looking at drug trends. I think that's what they were faction. But I do have a couple of other areas that I would looking at here. It led back to when the patient was diag- like to ask questions of the minister on. nosed, perhaps. One of them relates to a report that's being commis- Th e Doctors of B.C., about 18 months ago, also looked sioned by an ADM in his ministry related to the Ministry at ADHD and expressed some concerns, I think, through of Advanced Education. We were told that that report specialists that perhaps there was an underdiagnosis of would be ready by the end of the month, which was last ADHD rather than overdiagnosis. I don't think…. month. I'm wondering if the minister could tell us what Th ere appear to be arguments on both sides. I think we the status of that report is and if he has received that re- would always support working with Doctors of B.C. to port yet. look at these issues. Certainly, if you talk to Dr. William Cunningham, who is the president of Doctors of B.C., Hon. M. de Jong: I will. I'll get the information. I he is an advocate of fewer pharmaceuticals rather than just want the member and the committee to know that more. I think all of us would agree that that would be the I pointedly have not asked that question of Mr. Mingay, ideal situation. who's here now. I'll convey the information that I receive, [1850] but I wouldn't be in a position to convey it without so- So always willing to look at initiatives and studies that liciting the information right now. would point to reducing not only the cost but also in- Th e information I can pass along is as follows. Th e re- fl icting medication on patients when perhaps it's not ap- port is essentially done. It is undergoing a legal review propriate. Again, there does seem to be two sides to that and more specifi cally, I think, a freedom-of-information discussion on ADHD. and privacy review. I think Mr. Mingay indicated ten to 14 days. Th e Chair: We have to adjourn, but we have one ques- tion from the member for New Westminster. M. Farnworth: Th e minister should receive it, then, 4380 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

in about ten days to two weeks. Th en it will be on the it's down, sometimes it's up, and it bounces around from minister's desk. Will the minister make it public at that quarter to quarter. Yeah, that's a fact. But at the same time, point, or at what point does he envisage making it public? when you look at the activities of resource companies in a particular commodity…. Hon. M. de Jong: Th e intention, schedule permitting, In the case of tech, where they're downsizing and lay- would be to make it public immediately. ing off 600 people, that says that they are expecting this to continue for some time, because you don't make those M. Farnworth: One of the areas in which the govern- kinds of decisions, laying off that many people, because ment has been trumpeting or that has been crucial to the of the basis of one quarter. government's tabling of a balanced budget has been in Clearly, their view is that the price of coal is obviously the area of forecasting, and resource prices have a con- trending down, that demand is down. Clearly, that im- siderable impact on whether our budget is balanced or pacts on their corporate decision-making, but just as im- not. portantly, it's going to impact on the province's revenue [1525] structure as well. Th e recent change in the price of coal in this province At what point will the minister look at how this is going and the forecasts are having a bit of an impact on the to impact on the other budget years coming out in terms budget not only this year but in their three-year forecast. of downgrading the price forecast on that? I'd just like to give some numbers to the minister. Last [1530] year the projected price the budget was predicated on Second, if they do have to make adjustments on the was around $155 a tonne for metallurgical coal. For this basis of coal, on the decline in revenue that we're getting coming year they're looking at $176; in 2015-16, $210; from coal, is that going to come out of contingencies, or in 2016-17, $216. just how is the ministry intending on dealing with that? In this past week the price for coal is at $124 a tonne. Th at's $50 a tonne less than what was forecast. It's now Hon. M. de Jong: What the member will be most in- 13 percent lower than the last quarterly contract. Th at terested in is the fi rst quarter report. Unlike the second leads probably to a hole in coal revenue of $50 million quarter, where we simply provide an update on the cur- this year so far. At the current rate, that's about $320 mil- rent fi scal year, at the fi rst quarter we do both the up- lion over three years. date on where we are in the present fi scal year and, the Can the Minister of Finance tell us how he's going to second part, a calculation based on a forecast out three deal with this drop in coal revenues, given that coal is an years. So all of the assumptions, all of the forecasting is important contributor to the provincial revenue stream? adjusted, and the numbers shift around. Some are up; some are down. Hon. M. de Jong: Well, the trend is not what I'm go- It is a full, three-year forecast as opposed to simply a ing to argue with in terms of the forecast versus where report on the current fi scal year. At that point the mem- the market is right now. What I can say is that the fi rst- ber should be able to see and ask: "Well, how have you ad- quarter report — and I think the member knows this justed your forecasts for the price of coal, going forward — will not only be obliged but will want to disclose and through the life of the three-year fi scal plan?" highlight where the variations are. That's a pretty normal process. What happens, of M. Farnworth: I appreciate the answer from the min- course, is that in some instances revenues are down and ister. I guess the concern I have is that we place a con- in other instances revenues are up. What we strive and siderable stake on and have talked about coal a lot in this hope for is that there's more on the upside than on the province, and the government has, and it's viewed as a downside, because, as the member knows, we don't have crucial revenue source. When you're seeing these kinds a lot of room in the budget. We have some room but not of drops, that can't help but have an impact. a lot of room to absorb a net negative number. It's all well and good to say: "Look, other revenue re- For example, natural gas prices have been tracking up- source areas are up." As the minister says, natural gas is ward beyond our forecasted amounts. I'm always leery up. But we have to be very careful with natural gas, be- about natural gas price forecasting. But at the moment cause we have seen high degrees of volatility in that par- some of what the member has alluded to — correctly, in ticular resource. It can move south as quickly as it can the case of coal revenues — is being off set. What I can't move north, and that will have an even bigger impact. do in advance of the fi rst quarter is quantify the extent Having said that, I want to thank the minister and his of the off set. staff . I said that we would be short on today's questions. With that, we can move off Finance estimates and deal M. Farnworth: I guess what's concerning from the with the vote. point of view of forecasting, in particular, coal…. And I understand what the minister is saying about sometimes Hon. M. de Jong: Th anks to the member, obviously, Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4381

to his colleagues who participated in the debate, to the ESTIMATES: many, many staff people who have joined us. LEGISLATION I'll simply end with this. The member's warning/ caution around the volatility of the markets and how Vote 1: legislation, $69,565,000 — approved. that translates into revenues is appropriate, is accurate. ESTIMATES: I say this across the board as people approach govern- OFFICERS OF THE LEGISLATURE ment in a variety of contexts — labour negotiations, other programming requests. We have to be cautious. Vote 2: Auditor General, $16,621,000 — approved. We have to be very, very cautious about committing to an expenditure program for which there may not be Vote 3: Confl ict of Interest Commissioner, $567,000 the resources if it grows too large. — approved. Th at's part of the discipline we've tried to bring, ever mindful of the fact that there is an element of unpredict- Vote 4: Elections B.C., $8,210,000 — approved. ability when it comes to forecasting revenue from some Vote 5: Information and Privacy Commissioner, sources of the economy. We are cautiously optimistic that, $5,526,000 — approved. on balance, the economy is growing in the right direc- tion. We'd like to see it grow even faster. Time will tell if Vote 6: Merit Commissioner, $1,039,000 — approved. we achieve those objectives. Vote 7: Ombudsperson, $5,615,000 — approved. Vote 22: ministry operations, $127,361,000 — ap- proved. Vote 8: Police Complaint Commissioner, $3,124,000 — approved. Vote 23: gaming policy and enforcement, $19,819,000 — approved. Vote 9: Representative for Children and Youth, $7,917,000 — approved. Vote 24: Public Service Agency, $50,807,000 — ap- proved. Hon. M. de Jong: I would move that the committee briefl y recess. [1535] Th e Chair: Th is committee stands recessed for fi ve Vote 25: benefi ts, $1,000 — approved. minutes.

ESTIMATES: Th e committee recessed from 3:39 p.m. to 3:42 p.m. MANAGEMENT OF PUBLIC FUNDS AND DEBT [D. Plecas in the chair.] Vote 45: management of public funds and debt, $1,285,466,000 — approved. ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER

ESTIMATES: On Vote 10: Offi ce of the Premier, $9,008,000. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Hon. C. Clark: I'm delighted to be here today. I'd like Vote 46: contingencies (all ministries) and new pro- to introduce to you some of the people who are here with me. John Dyble is Deputy Minister to the Premier grams, $300,000,000 — approved. and cabinet secretary, also head of the public service — 25,000 employees or so under his supervision; Kim Vote 47: capital funding, $1,048,243,000 — approved. Henderson, deputy minister for corporate initiatives; Neil Sweeney, deputy minister, corporate policy. Vote 48: commissions on collection of public funds, Cheryl Wenezenki-Yolland, associate deputy minis- $1,000 — approved. ter with the Ministry of Finance, is also here to assist us. Michelle Leamy, director of executive operations Vote 49: allowances for doubtful revenue accounts, in the deputy minister's offi ce, is also here. For inter- $1,000 — approved. governmental aff airs issues, Pierrette Maranda, our as- sociate deputy minister of Intergovernmental Relations Vote 50: tax transfers, $778,000,000 — approved. Secretariat, will also be available as needed. 4382 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

I should also, if I could, note that my job shadow, Cole a paycheque for their children. It's also because it pro- Gaerber, is here today to observe proceedings and see duces benefi ts for government that mean we can share how all of this works. He's really enjoyed it. He did note resources between us to create a fair society. Aft er all, one that in question period it didn't seem like there were of the best health care systems in the work is right here questions or answers, which I thought was a keen ob- in British Columbia. One of the best education systems servation — and accurate. It's not necessarily the pur- in the world is right here in British Columbia. pose of question period to ask a simple question and get How do we make sure we can continue to build on a simple answer. that success? It's not by running out of money. It's by I'm delighted to move this motion today. making sure we have money, that we're continuing to As the political head of this government, I'm very create wealth in our province. Th at's been our purpose proud of what we've embarked on in this last year: very since May 14 and before. We're going to continue on proud of our jobs plan and the work that we're doing to that. We're very, very proud of what we're working to grow our economy here in British Columbia; very proud accomplish. of the purposefulness with which we have pursued this I'm looking forward to the debate, where we'll get a opportunity to create a liquefi ed natural gas industry in chance to speak about many more of those accomplish- our province; very proud of the work we've been doing ments over the next few hours as we debate the estimates with the forest industry, as they've seen lots of fi nancial of the Premier's offi ce. upside and continue to become more profi table; and very proud of what we're doing in our mining sector, moving J. Horgan: I thank the Premier and her able staff who forward some mines that have been on the books for a are joining us here today, high atop the third fl oor of the while, and proud of the number of people that we're put- legislative buildings — the attic. We're in the attic here, ting to work in doing that. debating a $9 million expenditure, but more importantly, [1545] as the Premier stated, as the political head of the govern- Th is has been a very, very diffi cult time for govern- ment of British Columbia, we're going to be talking about ments all around the world. Th ere's no question about a wide range of issues. I know that there's abundant scope. that. We have seen western economies at very slow We've just heard that scope, being virtually every sector growth or no growth, in some cases shrinking. We have of the economy and a couple of areas of service delivery. continued to try and work to grow this economy. Th at In the world that I live in and the people that I serve means putting in place a plan. It means executing on as a member of this Legislature, the things that come in that plan in a purposeful way and keeping true to the the door of my constituency offi ce are usually about ser- goal that we've set. vices that government provides — social services, health We aren't there yet, but we are getting there because we services, education services and a range of other ser- have been so purposeful, so focused, and have worked so vices. We collect money from industry, and we collect hard to make sure that we can fi nd our way through this. money from citizens, in order that we can provide those We have a thriving technology industry which we want benefi ts that belong to all of us back to the people that to continue to grow across the province. It's very import- we represent. ant right here on southern Vancouver Island, very im- I'm hopeful that as we go through some of the areas portant in the Lower Mainland and in other parts of the that I'd like to touch upon in the hours that we have avail- province as well — Kelowna, notably, as well. able, the Premier will be able to enlighten people not just We have an incredibly rich agriculture industry and a in my constituency but all across British Columbia how manufacturing industry that we want to continue to grow, she's going to challenge some of the big issues of our time. particularly in aerospace, in your hometown of the Fraser One of the areas that we've been focusing on as a Valley. We have much to do. Legislature since 2005 is climate change, for example. As I am a great believer that government plays a very im- we get into a discussion around liquefi ed natural gas, I'm portant role in shaping our economy. Government does anxious to hear how the Premier will square that circle, not create jobs, but government is there and can either in- how we're going to meet the legislated targets that we all hibit or help grow jobs. It's the private sector that makes agreed to. Th e Premier was not in the House at that time, those decisions, and it is government that sets the stage but those elected between 2005 and 2009 focused very and seeds the ground that allows those businesses to vigorously on issues of climate change and how govern- thrive or not. ment could participate in a meaningful way to enable We are determined to make sure that the private sec- citizens to do their best to reduce our human impacts tor can thrive, because we know that a growing, thriving in that regard. private sector is the beginning of economic health, and Th e LNG fi le is one that I want to spend some time on. economic health is the beginning of a secure, healthy, I'm grateful for that, because as the former Energy crit- cohesive society. It's not just because economic health ic, I know a bit about this. I'm anxious to hear how the allows people to go to work every day and bring home Premier will be able to answer some of the questions that Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4383

she's laid out for the public over the past number of years, to have a $100 billion prosperity fund. in throne speeches, in speeches to political conventions and even, last year, in the election campaign. Hon. C. Clark: I think it is probably true that the [1550] member and I agree that we need to grow the economy I do appreciate, before you challenge me on that, that if we want to look aft er people. Th e diff erence is that the we're not talking about the election campaign. But there folks on the other side of the House don't want to do were statements that were made. For me, there was a big, anything that will grow the economy. In fact, they tend bold, "Debt-free B.C." on the side of a bus. Th ere was a to like to stand in the way of any eff ort to try and grow handsome photograph as well. I commend the Premier the economy. So you can say it all you want, but unless for that. But that statement still kind of rings hollow to you're actually going to try and do the things that will me, as we've seen debt increase over the past 12 and, in make a diff erence and increase the size of our economy, fact, 36 months since the Premier's had the job that she's it's really empty words. in today. It's all about the action that government takes that As I understand it…. I'll just read from the throne makes a diff erence. We have been working very hard to speech the following. I'm assuming…. In my time, when try and take the steps that we need to, to support our for- I was active in government at senior levels, the Premier's est industry and ensure that that grows, our agriculture offi ce had a hand in craft ing some of the language that industry, to make sure that we support our mining busi- was contained in the Speech from the Th rone. I'm fairly ness, make sure that we support our technology business, confi dent that's still the case, so I'm certain that the au- manufacturing and all those small and medium-sized thors — or certainly, some of the authors — of what is businesses, all of those areas of the economy that need always a committee function are sitting around the table to grow in order for us to be able to look aft er each other today. Th ey'll be able to help the Premier out if I'm off in the long term. base on some of these statements that were made in the I have always said that here we are, in a period of stag- Legislature by the Lieutenant-Governor. nant and slow economic growth across the western world, I'll start by saying the following. Th is is the 2013 throne and we spend money. Governments across the West tend speech, and it says: to spend money as though we're still in the 1960s, when "For our province, two new revenue streams can be created. Th e governments experienced 6 and even 8 percent growth. fi rst comes from revenues generated from the growth of employ- We cannot sustain our social programs, health care and ment and business activity — new revenues in a growing economy that will greatly enhance government's ability to provide services education the way that people expect us to if we don't families depend upon year aft er year." start moving from 2 percent growth back to an era of I think the Premier and I agree on that. As we grow the much, much bigger growth. Th at is the way we will look economy, we'll be able to increase our revenues so that aft er the future. we can provide the services people want. [1555] But this is where I think we run into a bit of tricky We can either manage decline, which is what other business, and I'm hopeful that the Premier will help me provinces in this country have chosen to do — it's what out here. states in America have chosen to do; it's what states in "Th e second stream of revenue comes from new royalty revenues Western Europe, some of them, have chosen to do — or directly for the province — British Columbia’s share of resource we can grasp the opportunity for growth. profi ts. Th is could exceed $100 billion over the next 30 years. Th is In decision after decision by our government and resource belongs to the people of British Columbia" — I concur — "both here today and those to follow. It must be spent wisely, not through legislation, people will see that we are doing just for the benefi t of today’s citizens but also for our children and everything we can — and sometimes it's controversial — grandchildren. to grow our economy. We are unafraid to say we want a "To protect this second stream of revenue for generations to bigger economy, and we are prepared to take the steps come, your government is establishing the British Columbia required to put people to work at high-paying, family- prosperity fund. Future royalties will be designated to this fund, ensuring British Columbia families can benefi t from the prosperity supporting jobs, because it is the working people of created by natural gas in our province." British Columbia that will make sure we are able to look It goes on to talk about transformational change and so aft er each other in the long term. on. With respect to the prosperity fund, that is going to I would have agreed with the Premier in 2005, as we be the vehicle that we use to eliminate the debt in British were getting land lease revenues and as royalties were Columbia. How do you eliminate a debt? Th e fi rst thing coming in, in very large amounts, that we may well have you do is you balance your budget. We've introduced two been in a position to reach a fund of $100 billion. But I’m balanced budgets, both of which the NDP opposed. We curious if the Premier could tell me, in light of depressed know that that is absolutely fundamental to getting to- prices in North America, in light of the absence of any ward a smaller debt. fi scal framework that I've been able to put my hands on We aren't there yet, but we've begun. We've begun the over the past number of years, how it is that we're going process by balancing our budget, by controlling spend- 4384 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

ing in government, by resisting calls day aft er day from breaks that we've had in British Columbia's history, aft er the opposition to increase the spending of government a rigorous 36 days of sitting over 18 months. It was diffi - and put us out of balance. If we were to go out of balance, cult, I'm sure, for all of us here at the Legislature to spend we would never fi nd ourselves on that path to a debt-free all 36 of those days working on the people's business. British Columbia. We had a 200-day break. I assumed and my colleagues We are currently negotiating, as I'm sure the member assumed and I think the public of British Columbia as- knows, with two companies — Petronas and Woodfi bre sumed that over that period of time, with all the re- — on the fi nal details of the project development agree- sources available to the Premier, much of it assembled in ments. Our deadline for that is November 30. Th ose this room today, and many, many thousands more at the agreements will off er some of the answers to the mem- disposal of the deputy to the Premier, that we would have ber's questions. But we're currently negotiating that right had in the fall of 2013 a fi scal framework so the public now. I'm not going to negotiate it here in this committee could have a better understanding of what the govern- room. We will in those project development agreements ment's plan was for the resources that belong to all of us. provide tax certainty and certainty on the costs that gov- [1600] ernment imposes on investors in the LNG business. Th en we were advised: "Well, we're not going to be able I'm very hopeful that we'll get to a successful conclu- to make it. We're going to have it in the spring. Count sion of those project development agreements. Once we on it. Put that in the bank." Th at's the prosperity fund have, we've cleared the fi nal hurdle to a fi nal investment bank, that is. decision. I'm then hopeful that both of these companies The spring came, and here we are, two days away will make the choice to invest in our province. Just one of from the end of our second session of the 40th parlia- them could be the biggest private sector investment ever ment, with still no fi scal framework. Now the Premier made in British Columbia. says we have a deadline of November 30 to conclude an Th at will put us on the path to not just being debt-free arrangement. but also to creating 100,000 new jobs for working men Again, I will come back to the Premier. If we're going and women across our province, the jobs and the pay- to have $100 billion, as was promised by the Premier in cheques that they need to be able to support their families, her throne speech and on the campaign trail, if Petronas and the revenue that government needs to make sure that is at 18 million tonnes per annum and Woodfi bre very our children aren't burdened with a debt and the revenue modest, where is the revenue going to come to meet that that we need to look aft er each other in a world-class edu- $100 billion prosperity fund, which would…? cation, health care system and a society with some of the I'll quote from the throne speech. It says, "A main focus strongest social programs you will fi nd anywhere. of the prosperity fund will be to reduce provincial debt. We have an obligation to make good on this debt, rather J. Horgan: Wow. It's going to be a long aft ernoon. A than ask our children to pay for it" in the future. simple question, and that was the answer. I asked the Again, to the Premier: that $100 billion — is it com- question. It didn't say "debt-free hopefully," "debt-free, ing out of thin air? Because revenues from natural gas we're on our way," "the path to debt-free." It said "debt- development have been going down steadily since 2005. free" on the side of the bus. And it's been debt-free ever Th ere is a glut in the North American market. If there is since then in the Premier's rhetoric. a fi nal investment decision aft er November, we have an- I'd like to go back again to what was told to the people other four years before any of that money is going to be of British Columbia in their House, the Legislature. We realized and we can get to the two phases of the taxation were told that we were going to be reducing the debt regime that we know of today. through a prosperity fund. I've heard the Premier nego- Perhaps the Premier can then advise this committee tiate public sector agreements in public. I've been hear- and the people of British Columbia just where that's com- ing her talk about negotiating with teachers all week long. ing from, because it looks like thin air today. Diff erent positions each day, but that's what I've been hearing all week long. But we're not going to negotiate Hon. C. Clark: I'm looking at the notes from the in public when it comes to deals with multinational cor- Minister of Finance's discussion that he had, I think, with porations like Petronas and Woodfi bre. the Finance critic from the opposition. He covered some And you know what? I'm okay with that. But the ques- of this, so I won't repeat all that he said, except to say that tions I'm raising today are a result of statements that the we are negotiating these agreements. We're negotiating government has been making for the past 2½ years. "We that, working through what the tax structure will look will have," they said upon re-election, "a fi scal framework like so that we can have certainty around that. Once we in place this fall." Th at was the statement that came from have that, it will become much clearer how the revenue the Premier. Th is fall being 2013. will fl ow and when. When that target wasn't met, it was a 200-day hiatus We have some important things to look aft er, including between sessions of the Legislature, one of the longest making sure that we're caring for our environment, mak- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4385

ing sure that the incentive is to invest in British Columbia, Th e debt in March 2011 stood at $45 billion. Th is is making sure that we are a very competitive jurisdiction direct government debt. It's pegged currently at $62 bil- for natural gas. lion. It's going to rise in 2016-17 to $69 billion. We have Th e member is quite right. Th e price for natural gas in a $100 billion prosperity fund over 30 years. We have North America has been historically low. It's just been debt-servicing costs of $2.4 billion annually and rising, rock bottom. Th at is why we want to create a liquefi ed and if we have an interest rate hike, we're going to have natural gas industry. even more diffi culty. Th at is precisely the reason, because we need to di- Let's assume that Petronas is the likely best option for versify our markets. We need to export natural gas to us, or they're closest to a fi nal investment decision — al- Asia, where we should be able to get a higher price for it though I'm sure Shell and other players are also eager to — where we will be able to get a higher price for it — and access our natural resource and to try and grind down where we'll have more than one customer for our product. the government to the lowest tax regime and royalty re- It's some of the same thinking that went into, ten years gime they possibly can. Aft er all, the Premier's knows ago, the government deciding that we wanted to expand that it's a very, very competitive sector. I'll get to China our markets in Asia for lumber. Having just one cus- and Russia later on. tomer for lumber wasn't a good place to be. I don't think Let's assume, at 18 million tonnes per annum, that the government at the time could have fully appreciated that's a tax of about $325 million, based on the assump- how important it was to have more than one customer for tions that the Minister of Finance talked about in the lumber, because I don't think that anyone would have ap- budget documents. Although he didn't book any money, preciated how deep the post-2008 crash would have been. he said that there was going to be a two-tier system and Th ank goodness, the government worked hard to open that it would come in at one level and then drop down up those markets in Asia for our lumber business, adding to a second aft er capital was covered. $1 billion plus in incremental new revenue as a result of We're not even assuming that capital is going to be cov- it, and protected thousands of jobs all across this prov- ered. If we're collecting $325 million in tax from Petronas ince in small towns and large towns, in mills and in the annually, that doesn't cover a fraction of the debt-servicing woods. Th ank goodness, the government of the day had costs on the existing debt. If that's the case, how is it that the foresight to do that. we're going to be reducing the debt over time? [1605] We are pursuing, for some of those same reasons, a Hon. C. Clark: Well, repetition is sometimes a good similar strategy with natural gas. We need to fi nd a way thing, so I'll try it. to get it off this continent, diversify our markets and get Th e fi rst step to paying off your debt is balancing your a higher price for it. I think the Finance Minister spoke budget. You cannot begin to pay off your debt — as a to this, but I'll repeat it. Th ere are no assumptions from jurisdiction, as a company, as a family — if you cannot a higher natural gas price built into the current budget. balance your yearly budget. So we have taken that im- We've been very, very cautious about that. portant fi rst step in doing so by controlling government I'll say again that I won't be able to answer the mem- spending. ber's question about some of the details of what that tax We're very, very proud, for example, of our record in structure is going to look like while we're still in nego- fi nding tentative or ratifi ed agreements with 40 percent tiations with the companies about just that. He will see of our public sector. Th at's been a really important part it in due course. I'm very hopeful that these negotiations of controlling government spending. We've been suc- will come to a very successful conclusion — not just for cessful at doing that. We've made sure that raises are fair the investors but, most importantly, for the men and but, at the same time, making sure that they're aff ordable. women of British Columbia who will benefi t from these We have refused the constant calls to spend more high-paying, family-supporting jobs in every corner of money in almost every area of government that we hear the province. every single day. [1610] J. Horgan: Well, the Premier is the chair of the prior- We have demonstrated real discipline and focus in try- ities and planning committee of cabinet. She's the chair ing to control government spending, and that has been of the cabinet working group on LNG. In particular the rewarded in two consecutive balanced budgets in a time second group, I am assuming, includes the Minister when many, many jurisdictions are still failing to bal- of Natural Gas, Minister of Environment, Minister of ance their budget. It's been rewarded in recognition by Finance, Minister of Energy and Mines. I'm assum- the bond-rating agencies that have recognized it by con- ing that as the chair of that committee there are regular fi rming their credit ratings at the highest levels. Fitch briefi ngs on the status of negotiations, there are regular and Moody's most recently affi rmed their triple-A cred- briefi ngs on price points, and there are regular briefi ngs it ratings for British Columbia. Dominion Bond Rating on where we're going to be able to realize this revenue. Services affi rmed their credit rating for us. 4386 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

It's good to have that outside look at government and So we have debt going up. It's going up. Th e Premier can that affi rmation that our budget is in good shape, that we balance the budget. Th e debt is going up. are balancing our budget truthfully and that we are doing The Premier said in her throne speech and on the a good job of controlling government spending. side of the bus that we were going to be debt-free. I've Our debt-to-GDP ratio is low in our province. It's ex- just demonstrated, despite the negative outlook from pected to peak at about 18.5 percent. Th at's very com- Moody's because of the reasons they articulate in their petitive, and the bond-rating agencies recognize that as report, that if we have Petronas at 18 million tonnes…. well. Compare that to Canada, where it's 35 percent. In Let's throw Shell in. Let's put Woodfi bre to one side, be- Ontario it's over 40 percent. Quebec's is 48 percent. Th e cause it's a modestly sized plant, and let's go with the two U.S., 75 percent; 80 percent in France; and 165 percent — 18 million tonnes in Petronas and 12 million tonnes in in Greece. We are doing extremely well here in British Shell, as currently projected. Columbia, but it's too high. We have to work hard to Th e total tax based on the framework that we under- get it lower. stand today, the two tiers that were part and parcel of the We're going to continue to do that through purposeful budget documents although not part and parcel of the fi scal discipline by making sure we are continuing to bal- budget statements — we will have $575 million in rev- ance our budget, by resisting the constant calls to spend enue from those two very large LNG facilities. more and more and more, by resisting the calls to grow [1615] government; and instead, embracing a plan that allows us Th at $575 million will make up 23 percent of the debt- to grow the private sector, to support small and medium servicing costs today. It will not eliminate the debt-servicing and large businesses, to put people to work across the costs, and it will not reduce the debt. Less than one-quarter province, to support that new revenue that will come of the debt-servicing costs will be covered by the two largest from those personal income taxes and other taxes that and most likely liquefi ed natural gas plants. are paid by business, to make sure we are looking aft er Again I'll try and be as specifi c as I can. I love to hear people under the auspices of government because we the Premier talk about her optimism. I love to hear the have the revenues to do so. Premier talk about "If I wish this hard enough, it will be- Th at is the plan we are following. It's a plan that we've come true." What I want to know is why it was that the put in place and had been working to for over three government of British Columbia made a commitment years. We've had success. Th at success has been recog- to reduce the debt and said they would do it with the nized. We need to continue to do more. We cannot give prosperity fund that would realize $100 billion, magic- up on our discipline. We cannot give up on our desire to ally, with contracts not yet signed, with competition in- continue to balance budgets and make sure we're con- creasing by the day. trolling the growth of government. If we do, everything How is it possible that…? With two major plants, else is in peril. you're only going to reduce your debt-servicing costs by I've been accused oft en of being an optimist. I have 25 percent. How do you become debt-free? Th at seems to say that I embrace that label. I am an optimist for our to be magic to me. province. But we aren't rolling in the money yet. We're not in the good times yet. It's going to take a little bit of Hon. C. Clark: Well, debt-servicing costs are already time and a lot of eff ort to make sure that we get there. factored into our budget. Th e additional revenue from We cannot get there without a plan. We cannot get LNG is not going to go to cover that. It's already factored there without a principle that steers us which is based on in, and he, I know, will know that from the debate with growing a thriving private sector economy and not grow- the Finance Minister. ing government. Th at is how we will get there. I marvel at the member's ability to be able to pull As I said, we're not there yet, so we're not able to do all out some negative quotes from the bond-rating agen- the things that we would like to do. But if we continue to cies. He doesn't mention the quotes that say British be purposeful, I believe we will get there. Columbia has an "unmatched fiscal discipline" or "British Columbia continues to demonstrate strong fi s- J. Horgan: Moody's, in its investor services report re- cal discipline and remains in an enviable position rela- leased on May 9, said that the outlook was negative. It tive to provincial peers." says: "Th e negative outlook refl ects the risk of the prov- "Th e overall tax regime for individuals and corpora- ince's ability to reverse the recent accumulation in debt, tions remains one of the most competitive in Canada." given a soft ened economic outlook, weaker commodity British Columbia "continues its practice of including prices and continued expense pressures." built-in cushions in the form of expense contingencies Let's go back to the question that I started with about and revenue forecast allowances." a half an hour ago. It had to do with the fact that we have Th ey consider British Columbia's fi nancial planning an increasing debt — going up, as I said, from $45 billion and controls to be strong. "Overall, economic profi le re- in 2011 to $62 billion this year to $69 billion in '16-17. mains sound, and the province's debt position remains Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4387

manageable, compares favourably to other provinces." Hon. C. Clark: No, the member is wrong about that. "B.C.'s growing trade orientation toward Asia off ers Th e credit rating was, in April 2013, negative. And then diversifi cation against potential economic weakness in this year it was confi rmed at the same level. So no, the North America." answer is it has not changed over that period of time. At "Th e province displays very positive fi nancial manage- the same time, of course, as well, other bond-rating agen- ment practices. Th e fi nancial disclosures are transpar- cies rated it positive. I think we are doing very well, given ent, comprehensive and timely. Its fi nancial practices are the fi scal circumstances across the country and around amongst the best of Canadian provinces." the world. We need to continue to do better. Th ere are more. I'm going to save them, I think, per- I know that organizations like the Conference Board haps, for the next question. But we are on a very sound of Canada and other international organizations look at fi scal footing at the moment. We're going to maintain our what we're doing. Th ey look at the prospect of this lique- discipline to make sure that we get there. We are going fi ed natural gas industry getting started, how close we are to resist calls to continue to grow government and spend getting, how much progress we've made in a short per- more money. And we're going to work hard to make sure iod of time, and I am very hopeful that it will mean that that we grow this private sector economy. their view of our economy continues to be positive and In terms of how much money government will gar- continues to improve. ner from LNG, well, that will be the product of the ne- gotiations that are underway at the moment. But we will J. Horgan: On the side of the bus it didn't say: "debt- pay off the debt in British Columbia. It might not hap- free, not this year, not next year, but sometime in the fu- pen in one year. It might not happen in two years, but it ture." It just said debt-free. So this, it strikes me, is a rich will happen. Th e only way to get there is to balance your area to probe the Premier and her staff on just when that debt-free will happen. budget fi rst. Is there any time in the future — fi ve, ten, 15, 20, 200 Th at is why this has been such an important corner- years…? Did you have any framework when you made stone of everything that the government has done. I that slogan up, or was it just something that seemed to understand that balancing budgets is not something that, fi t beside the picture nicely on a 40-seat bus? traditionally, the opposition has supported, and it is one of the key diff erentiators between this side of the House Hon. C. Clark: Well, I am delighted that the mem- and the opposition side of the House. ber has, on behalf of the NDP, taken a sudden interest But I'm not ashamed to say we believe in it, and we in making sure we have an improved credit rating. In believe in balancing budgets, because we know that if the 1990s there were so many successive multiple credit you don't, you cannot attract investment, you cannot downgrades, it's hard to count them. Here we were in grow the economy, you cannot create jobs, and you will British Columbia, eight defi cit budgets in a row. Highest never, ever have any prospect of being able to pay off , income taxes in Canada. Multiple credit downgrades. much less pay down, the provincial debt, both of which We became a have-not province, taking from the rest of we intend to do. Canada rather than contributing. We were the last in job growth for fi ve straight years and last in Canada for pri- J. Horgan: I guess the diff erence between a campaign vate sector investment. is that's where rhetoric works…. When you're trying to We don't want to go back to that. We want to make sure manage a $44 billion economy and the people that you're that we are continuing to improve our credit rating. We taxing to drive that economy, you should have clear and want to make sure that we are doing all the things that are coherent answers, I believe, to fairly simple questions. necessary. Th at includes balancing our budget. [1620] [1625] So I will ask a simple question. Th e Premier has a brief- Th at is a cornerstone of the commitment that I have ing note at her disposal about the Moody's report. Can made to British Columbians, and it's a cornerstone to she tell me if there was a change from "stable" to "negative" making sure that we are growing our economy and put- in that report? Was it "stable" before the report and "nega- ting people to work at great, high-paying private sector tive" aft er? Simple question. I don't require a talk about a jobs, many of them unionized. It's going to mean a diff er- secure tomorrow and a strong future. Was it "stable" be- ent future for our province. We've looked aft er our fi scal fore, and is it "negative" now? future, and we are keeping that cornerstone strong and not taking our eye off the ball when it comes to looking Hon. C. Clark: Th ey confi rmed their credit rating. aft er our economy. Th ere was no change in the credit rating this year over In terms of the details of how much revenue govern- last, if that what's the member is asking me. ment will garner from the royalty structure and the taxa- tion structure on LNG, that is currently being negotiated, Interjection. as I've told the Leader of the Opposition a number of 4388 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

times. When we have an answer to that, because the ne- may be too ambitious. Th e Premier may be correct that gotiations are complete and successful, the member will, we're going to get negotiated downward on the two tiers I'm sure, be among the fi rst to know. that were put forward by the Minister of Finance. We're going to make sure that we are the most com- But I, sadly, am hamstrung because I have to deal with petitive LNG business in the world in greenfi eld projects. the documents that were tabled in the Legislature. I don't It's a diffi cult bar to meet, but we know we need to meet know what the Premier does at the natural gas working it in order to be able to attract this investment in a very, group. I know that if you burn gas in British Columbia very competitive environment. and call it something towards liquefi ed natural gas, it's a And we need to get it right, because the thing about green fuel source, but if you burn it at Burrard thermal, setting a tax regime is that you could set it very high, where you can reduce costs for B.C. Hydro because they which I suspect is what some members on the other side can use that as a peak shaving opportunity, it's somehow of the House might like to do. You will get 100 percent odious and shouldn't be allowed to happen. of zero. If we set it too low, it'll mean that we don't get I'm trying to come to terms with the contradictions an adequate benefi t for the people of British Columbia. in what natural gas really is. It's the cleanest, greenest We need to fi nd the right spot. Th at means the people fuel in the world if you're trying to sell it to someone of our province benefi t but also that we don't scare away else. But if you're going to use it here to provide lower that investment in an extremely competitive environ- costs for ratepayers — not the 28 percent rate increases ment. Th ey are very sensitive negotiations, but I am sure that we're going to see over the next fi ve years — then we will get there, and we will see the benefi t of that for it's another matter. another generation to come. [1630] I'd like to go back…. Th e information that was tabled J. Horgan: Again, I understand the Premier's desire in the budget…. And I appreciate this is out of the scope to live in the past decade. It's unfortunate, because the of the Premier, but she is the chair of the committee. Aft er people of British Columbia want to live in the here and all, I'm assuming that if the liquefi ed natural gas commit- the now. Th ey want to live today. I don't begrudge the tee is meeting, they're talking about revenues, because — Premier her opportunity to take partisan shots. I'll peri- on the side of the bus — "Debt-free," "Prosperity fund" odically take one myself. Th at's fair enough. But I do still come out of the Premier's mouth periodically. believe that there are infrequent opportunities for the How is it possible that only $500 million in revenue Premier to speak directly to British Columbians, not in can be realized if those two plants come on stream in four sound bites, not in message boxes, but from her heart years' time? And that is only 23 percent of our total debt about not just what she wants to happen but what is servicing. I do appreciate that the Premier has already happening. budgeted the $2.5 billion you need to service your debt, Th e people of British Columbia pay all of us to be here. but you're not going to be reducing your debt if you're Th e people of British Columbia pay all of the people sit- only reducing the servicing costs by 25 percent. ting around the Premier and those who are presiding over this debate today. I think they have a reasonable expecta- [G. Kyllo in the chair.] tion that if someone asks a direct question about how you are going to get to something you said you would do, it Hon. C. Clark: Th e member talks about two projects. would be more than, "Well, we'll just have to see how it We hope that there will be more than that. goes in November" — November 30, the drop-dead date I should also reference the February 2013 forecasts that for negotiations with large multinational corporations. were developed separately by Grant Th ornton and Ernst I'm only going on the information that was provided in and Young. Th ey confi rmed that the provincial revenue the budget documents to come to conclusions about how forecasts were estimated to be in the range of $130 bil- much revenue is likely to be raised, based on the frame- lion to $180 billion over the construction and 20-year work the Minister of Finance tabled in February, which, operation period. Th at's the big number and the source by my recollection, was only a few months ago — not of that big number. in the 1990s, not in the 1980s but just a few months ago. I am not going to imperil the investment by con- I'm trying to take that information and draw a picture for ducting the negotiations about the tax and how it's going the people of British Columbia on if it's at all practically to work and how much revenue will be garnered from it possible for the government to reach the targets that they in this room today. Th ose negotiations are very sensitive. have set forward in rhetoric rather than in reality. Th ey are happening. Th ey are underway now. Th ey're Again, I'll ask the Premier. If we assume we have two working extremely hard, rolling up their sleeves. It's a plants…. And I've used Petronas and Shell, the two lar- fairly short timeline to get there by the 30th. gest likely outcomes — combined, 30 million tonnes per I am determined not to undermine that work by ne- annum. My understanding, looking at the scenarios that gotiating this with the Leader of the Opposition when were put forward by the Minister of Finance…. And they it's our negotiators who are working with those private Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4389

sector companies to come to a conclusion on this right will be for all of those countries to be able to look to the now. I think I've told the member that a couple of times. clean fossil fuels, rather than the dirty ones, to power In big numbers, if fi ve LNG plants are built, there will their growth. be about $1 trillion in economic activity; 100,000 new jobs; potential revenues, as I said, of over $100 billion; po- J. Horgan: Does the Premier believe that the $400 bil- tential industry investment of about $175 billion. Th at af- lion arrangement reached between China and Russia last fords us the opportunity to eliminate our provincial debt. week will increase supply, thus reducing cost? It also allows us the opportunity, with the cleanest fos- sil fuel on the planet, to be able to go and help make the Hon. C. Clark: I know the Natural Gas Minister cov- biggest contribution to reducing climate change global- ered this in his estimates. Once the China-Russia deal is ly that British Columbia has ever had. Th at's by export- fi nished, it will supply about 10 percent of China's ex- ing this clean fossil fuel to China and Asia, helping them pected demand. So there's a lot of room for more pro- move from some of the dirtier fossil fuels that they're duct in that market. relying on today. We are geographically proximate to the parts of China Th ey are going to continue to grow. Th ey're going to that are going to be using most of the natural gas as their continue to use more energy. Th e question is: what ener- economy grows, particularly in the eastern part of China. gy will they use? Will they use the clean, green natural gas We are also a competitive, reliable, honourable partner. that's produced here in British Columbia, or will they use Th is doesn't change our strategy in this. We know that dirty coal? Will they use other sources that will pollute we can be a supplier in the portfolio of every importing our air and impact climate change globally? country around the world, potentially. We're focused, [1635] though, on Asia. We have a tremendous opportunity, not just econom- Th at's why there are 13 LNG proposals at various stages ically, for people here in British Columbia. We also have of development; four proposals that were announced just a tremendous opportunity on the environmental front in 2013; nine LNG proposals have received export ap- to make sure that we are doing everything that we can proval; two more are currently being reviewed; $8.5 bil- to protect the world, protect the air, for our children, for lion has already been invested to acquire upstream and our grandchildren and for their children. natural gas assets; $2 billion invested on LNG planning and development; $21 billion spent by LNG proponents J. Horgan: Is the Premier saying that we're only going on company acquisitions in order to access our resources. to sell our natural gas to companies that guarantee they're We've done a number of successful trade missions going to displace coal? to support LNG. We had a tremendously successful trade show and LNG conference just last week: 1,400 Hon. C. Clark: Here's what we know. Th e global de- people from around the world, including the president of mand for energy is going to double. It's going to be a tre- Petronas, the international president of Shell and repre- mendous growth in the economies of Asia, particularly sentatives from the biggest energy companies around China, and we also hope in India. Th ey are going to use the world. some kind of fuel to fuel that growth. [1640] If we don't export…. If they can't get their hands on I think we should all…. Governments aren't in the natural gas, they will use some other means. I believe we best position to make business decisions. Th e problem have an obligation, as we sit on an ocean of energy, to is when governments think they are in the best position make sure that we make that available to the world, and to make business decisions. I am not in the private sec- to those growing economies, so that they have the oppor- tor. And it is the private sector that will be the judge of tunity to shift from dirtier fuels to cleaner fuels. whether or not these projects are going to go ahead and I also know this, having visited China on, I think, four whether or not British Columbia is going to be a com- or fi ve trade missions that I've led, that they have a tre- petitive jurisdiction and whether or not there's going to mendous interest in attacking their pollution problem be a market for our product. and reducing their impact on climate change. Th ey have Th e private sector is resoundingly saying yes. When I a tremendous, undeniable issue with pollution in places met with proponents at the LNG conference, I explored like Beijing, Shanghai and other cities all over China. this with them directly. All of them said the deal between Th ere's tremendous, legitimate pressure to clean that up. Russia and China does not change their investment plans Government is beginning to respond. Th ey know that here in British Columbia. in order to meet that demand from their citizens, they Th ey're voting with their feet. Th ey're voting with bil- need to be able to access natural gas from around the lions of dollars. So I take that as a ringing endorsement world. of our strategy so far. We still have a ways to go down this We intend to be part of that energy portfolio for places road. It's not complete. We need to continue our relent- like China. Th e more natural gas we export, the easier it less focus on this if we want to make it happen. Th at's 4390 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014 what we intend to do. sions and climate change that's created in China aff ects everybody all around the world. Just because it's along J. Horgan: Here's another moment. I agree with the way away doesn't mean it doesn't aff ect us here. We have Premier that the market will decide, and I've been saying a chance to help them reduce their greenhouse gas emis- that for a number of years. Whenever the question came sions substantially. to me as Energy critic, I would say: "Th e market will de- I'll give you a number on that. Replacing some of the termine whether these projects proceed." coal used to generate electricity in China with 82 million But my responsibility now is as the Leader of the tonnes of LNG from B.C. could avoid up to 75 mega-

Opposition, and I have to pose these questions in the in- tonnes of CO2 annually. Th at's an incredible impact that terest of the Premier being as comprehensive in her re- we in British Columbia could have on the world for our sponses about the details as she possibly can. children and for our grandchildren, because the air that's I have not said to her at any time today that I wanted in China doesn't just belong to China. It belongs to every- to negotiate in public. I want her to give the public some body, no matter where you live on this globe. sense of how real the assumptions are that she's been making rhetorically in throne speeches and in budget J. Horgan: Has the Premier directed her Minister of documents. Environment to go to international conferences and try I'll come back to another element of the expansion and change the way we manage and quantify greenhouse of our gas opportunities and our liquefi ed natural gas gas emissions by jurisdiction? potential — "potential" being the operative word. What are the consequences if the fi ve plants that the Premier Hon. C. Clark: Well, my view is very much that we referenced two questions ago…? If fi ve plants come on need to be thinking of climate change as a global prob- stream, what would the greenhouse gas implications be lem, not as just a British Columbia problem. We are not to British Columbia? the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases in the world, As the Premier knows, we have legislated targets. As and we will never be. In fact, we are one of the best, most the Premier knows, international measurement of green- responsible, greenest jurisdictions in North America. house gas emissions is not done by what you displace Environmental policies that we've pursued — all of which elsewhere; it's done by what you emit in your jurisdic- were opposed by the New Democrats in their time, in- tion. So focusing on that element — and I want to be cluding the carbon tax — have put British Columbia very abundantly clear that I do not want to hear a story of how much at the forefront of environmental change. grand the world will be when Beijing and Shanghai can We want to continue that legacy by having, as I said, reduce their emissions — I want to know: what are the the biggest impact that we can have in the world — by consequences going to be to the emission profi le here in exporting our natural gas to some of the fastest-growing British Columbia? economies in the world. Th at's the view of the govern- ment. Th at's the view of the Environment Minister. We're Hon. C. Clark: Th at is partly the topic of the negotia- going to continue to pursue that. tions which we're in the midst of now. An LNG facility's GHG emissions intensity will vary, depending on com- J. Horgan: Can the Premier point to any international pression and power-generation technology choice, de- expert that confi rms her view that by increasing green- pending on the cooling medium and the liquefaction house gas emissions here in British Columbia, where we process choice. Th ose elements of environmental compli- have legislated targets, and potentially reducing them ance, which are extremely important to us in creating the somewhere else, that's a net benefi t to the world? cleanest LNG in the world, are part of the government- [1650] imposed cost. [1645] Hon. C. Clark: I don't have the names of everyone at Th at is part of the discussion that we're having in the my fi ngertips here. I apologize to the member. I could try negotiations. As I said, it is not just about the taxes; it's and get him that information tomorrow morning when about the other compliance costs that we're building into we get back to estimates. it. For those investors, all of these costs sink to one big I will say there was a terrifi c presentation from Richard bottom line. It all interacts with one another, whether its Muller, who was at the LNG conference — a professor at royalties or corporate income tax or the range of other Berkeley, expert on climate change; he's written a book things. So we're continuing to negotiate those elements on glacial change, I think, and some other areas related as part of the agreements that we're working on right now. directly to this — speaking about how important natur- We have a goal of having the cleanest LNG in the world. al gas is to help as a solution for climate change around We want to take advantage of this opportunity to clean the world. the world's air, which we all share. I think it's important Th ere is a ton of debate — I recognize that — in the to note that dirty air and emissions, greenhouse gas emis- scientific, environmental, policy-making commun- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4391

ities about all the ways that we need to impact climate — a vigorous opposition makes for a better government. change. But there are also a lot of people who do believe I'm not doing this for sport. I'm doing this because it's and accept — people with a scientifi c background — that incumbent upon me to ensure that we can get the most natural gas is a very important transitional step, as a tran- out of you and your staff and that the public of British sitional fuel, to reducing climate change globally. Columbia have a better understanding of where we're I certainly know that the climate change that's cre- going as a province. ated in China is going to have a tremendous impact on I'm not negative by nature; I'm positive by nature, just our children and our grandchildren, and we need to do like you. We fi nd ourselves to be very similar on a whole something about it. One of the ways we will do that is to host of fronts. But the rhetoric really should kind of…. make sure that we export our natural gas. Let's put that to the side. We don't have a lot of time here. Th e member oft en stands up and says he supports ex- Th ere are a lot of questions that people have. porting natural gas. But when he's not saying that, he's Th e Premier has said that they've been diligently work- opposing the means to power it, he's opposing the means ing for a number of years. I've asked about the tax regime to extract it, he's opposing the means to transport it and — not yet in place. I've asked about what the greenhouse isn't convinced that it's even a good thing for the world. gas consequences are going to be — not yet in place. He and I diff er on all of those fronts. We have an integrated resource plan at B.C. Hydro that I believe that the liquefi ed natural gas industry is go- does not include hydro resources for liquefaction or com- ing to be hugely important for the future of our province, pression, only for ancillary services, so the notion that we and rather than trying to put obstacles in the way of it need more energy to service the industry doesn't appear happening, what I'm trying to do is enable it, to create to be borne out, based on the information that's available an environmentally sound business and industry that's to us today. In fact, in my discussions with the sector over going to help the world, help British Columbia and also the past number of years, it's fairly clear that they're go- create thousands and thousands of new jobs for people ing to be using their abundant natural gas to compress here at home. and liquefy their product to get to higher-priced markets. Rather than trying to throw obstacles up in the way, I support getting more money for our resources. What I'm trying to fi nd solutions. We haven't found them all I don't support is those resources, which belong to all of yet, but we are on the right track. the people of British Columbia, being given away for a song because political commitments are being made to- J. Horgan: I agree with many of the comments the day. So I would prefer if we carry on, in the time we have Premier just made. I agree that natural gas is a transi- available, to talk about the substance of these issues in a tion fuel. Th e advent of shale gas in the United States way that the people of British Columbia will have a better has seen an overall reduction in greenhouse gas emis- understanding of the content of what we're talking about sions as a result of their displacing coal in jurisdictions rather than the rhetoric. south of the border. In the diligent 19 months you've been working on this, But I did ask the Premier whether we were going to we can't talk about the revenues that will come to the make it a term of our commercial arrangements that we Crown. Although there will be $100 billion, trillion, ga- would be actually displacing coal, or are we just going to zillion coming sometime in the undefi ned future, surely be adding more energy into a voracious Asian economy to goodness we've quantifi ed what the greenhouse gas that is consuming at rates that are obviously not sus- implications will be to our targets. tainable over time? Asian governments understand that. Governments around the world understand that. Hon. C. Clark: I apologize if I misinterpreted the My question was not about what the scientifi c debate is. member's question. I thought he was pressing me to seek It was about how international arrangements have been a commitment from China that we would not export our arrived it, whether it be the Kyoto protocol, whether it be natural gas to them unless they agreed that that natural discussions at Copenhagen in recent memory, where the gas would displace coal. Perhaps he could clarify for me world's been trying to grapple with: how do we measure if that's what he was seeking. and account for our greenhouse gas emissions? Th at's the specifi c question I'm asking the Premier. I do J. Horgan: Th e point I was trying to make was that we not disagree with her that our natural gas is a net benefi t have no guarantee, if we sell our gas to China, that they're to the markets that we can send it to where we displace going to displace coal unless you ask them to. Th ey have more noxious forms of energy generation. I fi rmly agree a rapacious appetite for energy. It's a fast-growing econ- with that. omy. Th e Premier knows that. She's visited several times, [1655] many more than I have. My question is not to be an obstacle. It's not to be in the Th e point I'm making is that our greenhouse gas tar- way. In our British parliamentary system — we've got our gets are legislated here, so rather than discussing whether Clerk from Saskatchewan, who's not here to enjoy this China will displace coal with our gas — which we cannot 4392 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

guarantee, in my view…. will likely be a mix. [1700] We need to be fl exible. We need to recognize that dif- It's impossible, yet the assertions from the Premier are ferent proposals in diff erent locations and diff erent eco- that if we sell them gas, magically their emissions will go nomics will have a diff erent mix of that. We're trying to down. I'm not convinced that will happen unless you get be fl exible in refl ecting that. a guarantee from your buyer that that's what they're go- ing to do. Th at's not likely to happen in a commercial ar- J. Horgan: Well, the motivation for the question was rangement. Th at was the point I was making. to get back to the point of the legislated greenhouse gas Let's go back to our legislated targets. Is there a plan emission targets that we have — overall reductions, over from the Liquefi ed Natural Gas Working Group to elim- time, by 2020. If we are going to realize our LNG poten- inate our current targets and set new targets? Because if tial, as the Premier wants to do, we're going to run afoul these plants do come on stream — one, two, three, fi ve, of those targets. I don't know how, and I've been look- 19 or 265 — we're going to be increasing our greenhouse ing at this, perhaps not with as much enthusiasm as the gas emissions, and therefore, our targets will be obliter- Premier, but I've been looking at this for some time as ated. Are we going to change our targets, or are we going well. to hold fast to them? If we are going to extract more gas from the ground, there's going to be a GHG consequence of that — to meet Hon. C. Clark: Well, fi rst I'll say the natural gas…. markets overseas. If we're going to get it from the east Displacing dirty fuel around the world with natural gas to the west, there's going to be a consequence to that. If is a priority for British Columbia, and we can't be a part we're going to liquefy it and get it across the ocean, there's of making that happen unless we get it out of the ground going to be a GHG consequence to that. At every step of and we move it to the coast and we ship it over there at the chain there's going to be a net increase in our emis- the best possible price that we can get. Th at is absolutely sions if we're going to meet these new markets. crucial to make us a part of this. And if we're not a part of Again, I want to stress that I'm not opposed to that. it, Mozambique will be a part of it. Th e United States will I'm just asking the question so the public can have an be a part of it. Russia, Qatar, Australia — all of the other understanding of what's at play here. What are the con- exporting countries around the world will be a part of it. sequences of your optimism on this fi le? We have a choice. We can either choose to be a part of We've got royalty revenues that are uncertain. We've it by trying to knock down the barriers to make it a com- got taxation revenues that are uncertain. We have a car- petitive industry and to try and get it through the process bon tax that regular folks have to pay but Petronas may as fairly and quickly as we can, or we can decide to put not have to pay. We don't know at this point. We may up obstacles and decide we don't want to do it. I'm on fi nd out November 30. the side of saying: "We want to make sure that we do it." [1705] Where are we at in terms of issues with respect to en- We have greenhouse gas targets, which we all voted for, vironmental compliance? As I said to the member, that to reduce our overall emissions over time. Th is industry is part and parcel of the negotiations that are underway is going to increase our emissions, which means we'll now. Th ose are government-imposed compliance costs have to drive them down in some other way. that sink to the bottom line for the proponents. Th ey are We have a referendum coming up on the transpor- very interested, and so are we, from diff erent perspectives, tation options in the Lower Mainland that would help on where that will land. us drive down our emissions if we can increase our in- I don't intend to negotiate that in public here. I don't vestments in public transit. Th ere are a whole bunch of want to imperil these negotiations. Th is industry and things we can and should do, should our emissions go the future of it is far, far too important for me to decide I up in one sector. want to take a risk like that by doing those negotiations My simple question is: has the Premier, through her in public here today. I just simply will not do it. eff orts over the past 12 to 36 months in moving this fi le, not had a briefi ng on what the GHG consequences are J. Horgan: Will the companies the government is ne- going to be if we expand our development of oil and gas gotiating with only be allowed to use electricity from the in British Columbia? grid, or will they be able to generate their own electricity? Hon. C. Clark: Discussion about greenhouse gas emis- Hon. C. Clark: I think it will be a mix. Well, I know sions has been part of the discussion that we've been hav- it will be likely there will be a mix. Some proposals are ing from the very, very beginning in pursuing a liquefi ed 100 percent electric, and Woodfi bre is an example of that. natural gas industry for the province. It's very much top Th at could be one of the earliest ones up and running. It's of mind for us. a small project, but it could be an example of 100 percent At the moment, we are in negotiations, as I've said, electric. Some of the others, the larger ones in particular, about these compliance costs, about the mix, the inten- Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4393

sity targets that we would set — those are government- Hon. C. Clark: Th e economy added 45,300 jobs. Th at's imposed costs — about the technology that we would as of April 4. Th ose are net private sector jobs since the require to be used. Those, again, are government- launch of the jobs plan. We have a lot more work to do. imposed costs. We are, as all economies are across this country, unique. Th at's part of the discussion that we're having right We are a diversifi ed but resource-based economy — not now, so it's too early to speculate on what that impact just one resource but a number of diff erent resources that might be. Once we've completed those negotiations, I'll are driven by diff erent prices around the world. be able to give the member a fi rmer answer. We are continuing to add private sector jobs. I don't have comparisons from all across the country. I suspects J. Horgan: Two hours on we don't know what the rev- it's apples to oranges to bananas, given that each of the enues are going to be. We don't know when we're going to provinces has a diff erent resource base and a diff erent be able to reduce our debt to zero, which was the commit- economic base. ment during the election campaign. We don't know what I will say I am absolutely certain we would be a lot far- the GHG consequences are going to be. We have an Ernst ther behind today if we did not have a jobs plan and if we and Young report that was paid for by the government hadn't executed on it as purposefully in such as we have. prior to the election that says there will some jobs created. We're going to continue to do that. We're going to con- Let's move to the jobs plan. Since the jobs plan was tinue to work to grow private sector jobs, control the size created, we have had one of the worst records on job of government, control government spending, balance creation in Canada — sixth overall. With respect to pri- our budget, maintain our triple-A credit rating. vate sector job growth, we're eighth overall. We have the Th e Conference Board of Canada has a very strong slowest growth in real wages as well. We're tenth overall. outlook for British Columbia, based on the plan, based We've lost 36,700 construction jobs and 3,100 manufac- on the confi dence of our credit-rating agencies, based on turing jobs. our tax rates, based on our prudent fi scal management and based on our — and their — optimism that we will Can the Premier give us her assessment of how the grow an LNG industry in British Columbia that is going jobs plan is working so far? to put us at the forefront of economic growth nationally. Hon. C. Clark: Well, we are very proud of the jobs J. Horgan: Well, I'll help the Premier out. StatsCan plan and the impact that it's had. I'm a great believer that says that we're eighth. I recall, again, leading up to the you cannot get to a goal without a plan. You can't get to creation of the jobs plan that we were going to be No. 1. a goal by changing your strategy every day and deciding "We're No. 1." that you want to do something diff erent. Th e Canucks wanted to make the playoff s this year. We've put in place a plan, and we've stuck with it in a Th ey had a plan to make the playoff s, and they didn't very slow and sluggish North American economy. Since make it. Th ey failed. We don't blame them for having a the launch of the jobs plan we've added 50,700 net new plan; we blame them for failing. jobs, 45,300 of which are net private sector jobs. We had a plan to be No. 1 in job growth, and we're No. [1710] 8. It's not apples to apples. It's growth rates — growth At the launch of the jobs plan there were 2,270,300 rates in job creation. It's simple. Th ese are numbers that people working. Today there are 2.321 million. Th at's are calculated every month. Last month British Columbia 50,700 more. In May 2001 employment in B.C. was lost 9,600 private sector jobs. 1,951,800. Th ere are 369,000 more people working today. I visited Tumbler Ridge last week and talked to many Youth unemployment has dropped 5 percent. of the 400 workers that are out of work at the Wolverine Youth unemployment is way down. B.C. has the third- mine, a sector that the Premier spoke about in her open- lowest unemployment rate in Canada. ing remarks. We have people losing jobs, shedding jobs, We have the fourth-highest average hourly wage of any in the mining sector, and we have an increase in the num- province in the country. We want to continue to grow ber of temporary foreign workers. that by increasing the number of high-paying jobs all [1715] across the province. Th at's part of the strategy. Before we get to temporary foreign workers — I don't We will not get there overnight. I've said that all along. want the Premier to be diverted here — I'd like to go But you have to have a plan to get there, and you have back to last month. I know that month to month is a to continue to execute on that plan if you want to make risky way to play the game, because the numbers go up sure you're going to meet your goals. and the numbers go down. But we are eighth out of ten provinces when the Premier ran an election campaign J. Horgan: Can the Premier tell us where we are, com- saying we were going to be No. 1 based on her plan. I ap- pared to other provinces today, with respect to private preciate the Premier wanted to be No. 1. So did I. So did sector job creation? all British Columbians. But we're not. We're No. 8. Th at's 4394 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

not an NDP position. It's not a Liberal position. It's the favour bad projects and you're a bad British Columbian position that B.C. is in. if you oppose them doesn't get us anywhere. I think we So would not the Premier agree with me that the plan should instead focus on the reality and the facts. Th e facts is not working and maybe it's time to dump some veter- are that the Premier said that we were going to be fi rst ans and bring in some new draft picks? in job creation when she launched her jobs plan. Since then we're eighth. Hon. C. Clark: Well, I'm not going to bring the Again, we're out of the playoffs, so we need to get Canucks into this. But I will say that the member is some new management, I would expect. Th at's what the quite right, that looking at it month to month is a mug's Canucks did. Th at's what any prudent business person game. Th ere have been months where British Columbia would do. If you're not meeting your plan, if you're not has led the country in job creation, but he hasn't named realizing the objectives you've set for yourself, it seems to any of those months. me you might want to look for new management. Where He can pick month-to-month numbers if he wants. It's is the benchmark? At what point is eighth no longer good not a very accurate picture of where we're at or where enough? we're going. It sure would be nice if the member would [1720] fi nd his way, rather than throwing up obstacles to re- source development at every corner and every turn, to Hon. C. Clark: I certainly do support a fair hearing support government in getting out of the way of re- in the environmental process for projects like Kinder source development, getting out of the way of growing Morgan. I know that the NDP have a diff erent position our economy. on that, and they'll be presenting that to the National Instead, his caucus and his positions on all of these Energy Board hearings when they happen. issues that will allow us to grow our economy, allow us I have supported, consistently, a fair environment- to create jobs, allow us to meet the Conference Board's al process for all of these proponents. I don't make an expectations of British Columbia, which are very positive exception when it comes to Kinder Morgan. I think indeed…. Instead, he throws up obstacles at every turn that diff erentiates us, from one side of the House to — things, ideas, policies, plans that would shut down our the other. resource economy entirely. Our jobs plan is focused on growing the economy. We Hon. C. Clark: Mr. Chairman, can I fi nish? I notice are focused on developing our resource sector. Th at's how the bells are ringing. we're going to put people to work. Our plan is a positive plan that's going to get us there. His plan is a plan that Th e Chair: Sure. Go ahead and fi nish, if you'd like. will mean going back to the days of high unemployment and government fi nding itself in the diffi cult position of Hon. C. Clark: I'll say this. Th e member talks about not being able to aff ord the social programs that people supporting resource development. He says it, but all of depend on. the things in the NDP plan, all the things that they would like to do — and some of the things he's talked about to- J. Horgan: Well, again, it's unfortunate that we get day — are intended to put obstacles in the way of grow- to these moments of rhetoric and partisanship, and ing our economy. that's the essence of the debate. Hopefully, this one I have more to say about the jobs numbers, and I'll will pass as quickly as it came upon us. I know that speak about that if I can continue my answer when we the Premier knows that I, for example, support the return. Red Chris mine. I support the Mount Milligan mine. Both of them are proceeding; both of them creating Th e Chair: Most certainly, Madam Premier. jobs. There's no animosity between the two of us about I call a short recess. those issues. I know that the Premier supports the Taseko Fish Lake Th e committee recessed from 5:21 p.m. to 5:36 p.m. proposal that's been rejected twice by the environmental assessment process. Th at's not the NDP that rejected that. [G. Kyllo in the chair.] It was the environmental assessment process. Good projects should proceed; bad projects shouldn't. Hon. C. Clark: Further to the member's question, I Th at's the way it works around here. Th at's why we have had a chance to go look at the Statistics Canada numbers robust environmental regulations in British Columbia, that I think he was quoting. If you look at the numbers and that's why investment should have the opportunity month to month that show British Columbia was eighth, to come and make their case. We have no quarrel on that, you see the same month that Nova Scotia was third. Well, the Premier and I — none whatsoever. that's month to month. Over the course of the year since Th e notion that you're a good British Columbian if you the jobs plan was introduced, B.C.'s third and Nova Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4395

Scotia's tenth. You really do need to look at these things come from are Australia — hence, my experience at Big over a period of time to get an accurate picture of it. White; the U.S.; Mexico; and the United Kingdom. But Th ird isn't No. 1, though. Th e way we're going to get to my view is very much this. We have an obligation as a No. 1 is by creating this natural gas industry, by removing government to ensure that British Columbians have the obstacles, by supporting resource development across the skills that they need to take advantage of the jobs when province. We are doing that now. I'm very hopeful that they come. we will fi nd our way to No. 1 in the country if we con- First of all, we need to do everything that we can to tinue along this path. support the private sector in creating those jobs. Th en we need to make sure that British Columbians are in a pos- J. Horgan: Th e Premier has said repeatedly that she ition to be able to fi ll those jobs at high rates of pay across believes we should make temporary foreign workers the the province by making sure that they have the training. workers of last resort, and she's made that commitment Th at is a crucial element in supporting my intention to that British Columbians should be fi rst. Yet today we ensure that British Columbians are fi rst in line for the have over 74,000 temporary foreign workers in British jobs. Th ey can't get the jobs if they don't have the training. Columbia and 143,000 people looking for work. Th at's why we're reprofi ling billions of dollars in our I appreciate there are skill issues involved. We want to post-secondary system. It's why we're changing our ap- meet our skills shortages with temporary foreign work- prenticeship system, and it's why we are refocusing in our ers while we train them up. I think we all agree on that, secondary system to make sure that we are giving every but British Columbia is disproportionately carrying its British Columbian who is looking for training an oppor- weight on the temporary foreign worker front, many of tunity to train for those jobs. It's why we are working with them in unskilled jobs — particularly, the Premier will the private sector labour unions, very cooperatively, to know, or her staff will certainly know, examples right here try and make this work. in the capital, where youth unemployment is relatively It's why we've been able to come to an agreement on a high, people are looking for work and temporary for- 15-point plan, which includes access, a recognition that eign workers are being brought in to do unskilled work. there will need to be access to temporary foreign workers. Can the Premier comment on her commitment to It's why we led a delegation to Ottawa to make sure that jobs for British Columbians fi rst and how we have come we are coordinated in terms of immigration and skills to have 74,000 temporary foreign workers in British training, to make sure that the people of this province Columbia? are fi rst in line for those jobs. Temporary foreign workers will be necessary for some Hon. C. Clark: I'll start by reminding the member — I elements of the projects at peak times. Th e labour unions know he knows this — that it is a federally managed pro- recognize that. Th e reason they do is because they know gram for temporary foreign workers. we can't attract these projects if we can't fi nd a way to He's right. Th ere were 74,000 temporary foreign work- make sure that we don't run out of supply of labour. Th e ers in B.C. in 2012. Over 29,000, almost 40 percent of long-term, permanent, high-paying jobs are going to go, them, are part of the youth mobility program, and they for the most part, to their members. can work anywhere in the province. Th at's a reciprocal Th ey want to make sure we land these projects. Th ey program. Canadian youth aged 18 to 25 can work over- want to make sure that we take as many obstacles out of seas in 32 countries as part of working vacations and the way as we possibly can. Th at's why we are working as international co-op programs. cooperatively as we can on the skills training front. We [1740] have a lot of work ahead of us. No government in the If you've ever been for a visit to Big White, up in my country — we're told by the proponents that no govern- neck of the woods, in the Kelowna-Okanagan region, you ment they've dealt with in the world — has created such will know that the hill there is staff ed, it seems almost ex- a comprehensive plan in advance of starting an LNG in- clusively, by Australians, many of whom are temporary dustry in the province. foreign workers. Ski hills and some other specifi c busi- As I always say, you've got to have a plan if you want nesses rely on temporary foreign workers, particularly to get to your goal. We have a plan. this youth program, to be able to continue to run their businesses. J. Horgan: With the reciprocal youth program the We have 4,300 who are part of the live-in caregiver Premier referenced, twice as many foreign youngsters are program, 8,600 are pursuing studies, 4,000 are seasonal coming here than are going off shore. It's a disproportion- agricultural workers, and 3,400 come through NAFTA. ate program, to be sure. It's not students coming here, as Now, this is information that we get from the federal you say. It's folks working at ski hills, perhaps, and other government, because, as I said, it's not a program that things. Th ey have two-year work permits, and they travel we manage. about, and good for them. Th e top four countries that temporary foreign workers But it's the temporary foreign workers that are being 4396 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

applied for, for example, by HD Mining, in the Tumbler school graduate in British Columbia to the exact speci- Ridge area. As I said to you earlier on in these estimates, fi cations for every single job that will be coming as we I was in Tumbler Ridge. I visited with some out-of-work continue to grow our economy, we still would not have steelworkers — 400 high-paying, skilled, unionized jobs enough people. lost in a town of 3,000. Th at's a big dent in any commun- In Alberta, where they do some of this kind of min- ity. It certainly was a big dent for Tumbler Ridge. ing, they've worked with the union to bring in temporary At the same time, there are applications from HD foreign workers who are members of those unions from Mining to have 200 temporary foreign workers brought the United States to go and work in those mines if they in to meet the needs of that project just down the street. haven't been able to fi nd people with the skills, the will- I'm wondering if the Premier could comment on how ingness, to be able to take on those jobs. that's fi tting in with her jobs plan and how that's fi tting Th ere's a case where the private sector unions in this in with working with private sector unions to ensure that country have enthusiastically and publicly — well, maybe they get a good crack at these jobs. not enthusiastically — supported the use of tempor- I'd also like to just again remind the Premier that al- ary foreign workers that are members of their union in though the temporary foreign worker program is a feder- coming from the United States, an economy that is very, al program, other jurisdictions — Manitoba and Quebec very busy and where sometimes it's very diffi cult to fi nd — have worked out arrangements whereby they have workers. more say and more control over the program, more say My hope is that in British Columbia we can make and more control over what sectors of the economy are sure that every British Columbian has a crack at those able to access temporary foreign workers to meet skills jobs. Th at means we need to make sure that we spend our shortages if they emerge. It seems to be working fairly money as well as we can — certainly better than we are well in those two provinces. today — in our secondary and post-secondary appren- [1745] ticeship systems to make sure British Columbians have I'm wondering if the Premier has made any overtures the training available so they can take advantage of this to the Prime Minister or any federal ministers to see if growing economy. we could have more control over something that's pretty important to British Columbia, and that's our labour J. Horgan: I'm familiar with underground mining. I market force. was in the Quinsam…. My colleague from Vancouver- Hastings and I both went underground in Campbell Hon. C. Clark: Well, there are two. Th e member may River to the coal mine there, and I can tell you that I don't know from having visited Tumbler and the region that want to be trained to do that again. It was an experience the proposal for the mine — and it's not a mine; it's not that I will remember forever, but it's certainly not some- an operating mine; it was a proposal for a mine — would thing I'd want to do every day. But the men and women have been longwall mining. that work there enjoy what they do. Th ey feed their fam- Th ere are two small underground mines in Canada. ilies; they pay their mortgages. We do not have a lot of workers experienced at doing this Th e challenge with HD is not that it's a particular style kind of mining. So the company went under the rules of mining. Longwall mining is unique in Canada. But that the federal government set and sought and received there are processing jobs. Th ere are cleaning jobs. Th ere permission to bring in temporary foreign workers to sup- are truck driving jobs. port them in doing that. Th ere's a litany of opportunities for people in the re- Th e connection, though, for here with the jobs plan is gion that are being denied because those jobs are going to this. When British Columbians are trained and able to be going to workers with temporary foreign permits, in- take the jobs, they can take them. But if they don't have cluding those that are going to be driving vehicles on site. the training and we don't have enough people with ex- It's not operating. Th ey're doing their core work. Th at's pertise in those fi elds or we don't have enough people two years of activity that's creating opportunity in the with the expertise who are prepared to live in those re- region but not opportunity for the people in the region. gions of the province, they will not take those jobs. Our I know we can quibble about training opportun- obligation, as I said — and this is part of the blueprint for ities. When I was there, I stopped in at Northern Lights skills training — is to make sure that British Columbians College to discover that on July 1 they'll be down to one have the skills that they need when those jobs come open. person answering the phone and directing people to If we believe that underground mining and longwall other satellite campuses of the college. mining are going to become an area where there could [1750] be real employment in our province, we will begin train- I'm wondering: aft er the announcement that Wolverine ing people for those jobs, because we want those jobs was closing down and the signifi cant job loss, was there to go to British Columbians fi rst. But we also recognize any action taken by the Premier to reach out to the that in our province, if we trained up every single high people in Tumbler Ridge, in the community, to see what Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4397

could be done to address those concerns? Four hundred Yesterday the Attorney General confi rmed that the people in a community of 3,000 — that's a big deal. investigation into allegations of Criminal Code and Election Act violations is still ongoing, so I want to focus Hon. C. Clark: Well, the Ministry of Jobs and the on your commitment to cooperate fully. Is the govern- Minister of Jobs have been working hard on making sure ment cooperating fully with the investigation? And how that workers in the community are assisted to the extent has the commitment to fully cooperate, communicated that we can. I know that Canfor has done a jobs fair there. to you by government members, the government's polit- Th ey did a number of interviews. Th ey are very, very act- ical staff and members of the public service…? ively looking for workers. Th e Roman coal mine is also, we hope, going to be tak- Hon. C. Clark: How can you tell when the member for ing on some new people. We've been working with them Vancouver–Point Grey has joined the room? I don't have on that and, I think, the Grande Cache mine as well. We any comment on that. I don't have any information about are working to try and transition the workers in this it. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on it. As downtime to new jobs and new positions and support the member noted, I publicly said that I would cooperate them in doing that. in any way, but beyond that, I can't add any information. Th e forest industry, as the member may know, is hun- gry for workers as they go through and see signifi cant J. Horgan: It was a directive from your offi ce. So my retirements in their business. Canfor is among the com- question would be: have you, any members of your gov- panies around the province that are working hard to try ernment or your staff received requests to meet with the and…. It has a real interest in trying to fi nd workers that RCMP? Have you, any members of your government or have been displaced from other businesses that are no your staff been interviewed by the RCMP in regard to longer operating. this investigation? So we're continuing to work on that. Mike Bernier, the member from the region, has been involved as well. We're Hon. C. Clark: I can only answer for myself, and the continuing to work on it. answer is no. My sympathies certainly go to the workers of the mine. We are enthusiastic supporters of mining. We are enthusi- J. Horgan: Have you, any members of your govern- astic supporters of coal mining. We are very proud of our ment or your staff received requests from the RCMP record in the last little while of making sure that mining to provide information in the form of documents? Has projects fi nd their way through the process as quickly anyone in your staff been asked to provide documents? as possible, to ensure that it's being done in an environ- mentally sound way but to ensure that we are putting Hon. C. Clark: It would be inappropriate for me to people to work as quickly as we can. seek or share any information on the work of the special It's a terrible thing to be out of a job wherever you are, prosecutor. I don't have any, and I don't have any to share. and it's certainly terrible for folks in Tumbler Ridge. But we're working with the community and working with J. Horgan: Well, you've pledged to cooperate fully, so other people in the private sector there to try and transi- I assume…. And again, your deputy was involved at the tion as many of those workers as we can. front end of some of these issues in terms of his review of I'm informed that on the HD Mining site there are, I the activity. So I will ask you if the deputy to the Premier, think, 31 Canadian workers on that site as well. It is not to your knowledge — and that could be ascertained fairly exclusively temporary foreign workers. Th at area is very quickly, I expect — has been asked to participate or pro- active. Th ere is lots of economic activity happening. We vide any documents to the RCMP. hope, through the jobs plan and through our purpose- ful focus on creating jobs and economic growth across Hon. C. Clark: It's independent of the government. It's the province, that they will continue to see more eco- independent of politicians for a reason. I haven't sought nomic growth. — I won't seek — any information about how the pro- [1755] cess is going. I'm going to leave that entirely up to them.

J. Horgan: On September 26 last year the criminal jus- Th e Chair: Leader of the Offi cial Opposition, I'll also tice branch announced that a special prosecutor had been remind you, please, to provide all your questions through appointed in regard to the RCMP investigation into al- the Chair. legations of Criminal Code and Elections Act violations on the part of the government and the B.C. Liberal Party. J. Horgan: Th ank you, hon. Chair. I agree with the At the time, your offi ce issued a statement: "Th e govern- Premier that the special prosecutor process is absolutely ment of British Columbia respects the process and will separate and arm's length from government and polit- cooperate fully." icians, but the RCMP is not. If there's an investigation 4398 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

ongoing — through you, hon. Chair — and a request for the guy riding shotgun on the "Debt-free" bus about the information comes to the Premier's offi ce, I would expect real situation at B.C. Hydro when you made an interven- that that would be something, aft er you've already argued tion to reduce rates before an election and then allowed publicly — through you, hon. Chair — that you want to them to go to 28 percent aft er? cooperate fully, that you would be apprised of. Is the Premier saying that she has not been apprised Hon. C. Clark: Well, the member knows that in 2011 since September 26 that there have been any requests of B.C. Hydro came to me and to cabinet and said they her offi ce, including the deputy to the Premier, for any wanted to do a very significant rate increase. My re- documents? sponse to that was to appoint my deputy, John Dyble, to go in and have a very, very close look at the operations Hon. C. Clark: I haven't been apprised of the status of of B.C. Hydro and try and fi nd ways that we could re- the investigation. I haven't sought any information about duce their costs and reduce the potential for a rate in- it. I will not share any information beyond the facts that crease for people. I've already shared, which is in answering no to the mem- We did that. We were successful. Th en aft er the elec- ber's question about me personally. It would be inappro- tion B.C. Hydro came back with another substantial rate priate for me to do that. I think the member must know increase. We went back in and did some more work with that, and he must know that this line of questioning is them and were able to reduce that again and, further going to garner him exactly the same answer. It would than that, come up with a sustainable ten-year plan for be inappropriate for me to do that. If he's urging me to B.C. Hydro so that we can make sure that rates are sus- share information, I think it's an inappropriate request. tainable and predictable over the long term and that B.C. Hydro continues to be sustainable and is able to make the J. Horgan: Well, it's certainly garnered shorter answers, investments needed in the very old, decades old, infra- so there is some benefi t to that. structure that W.A.C. Bennett had the foresight to build I'd like to move now to the issue of affordability. in this province — to ensure that it's renewed so that our Particularly, I want to talk about B.C. Hydro. Th e Premier children can have the benefi t of that infrastructure when will remember that in 2012 she intervened and can- it's their time to take over. celled the rate hearing and said at the time: "It's a tough economy, and hydro rates are just one other burden that J. Horgan: Our children will have the benefi ts of $60 government puts on people in terms of costs. So we're billion in unfunded liabilities for power contracts going fi nding a way to pay down the deferral account to about out the next 60 years. I don't know how they're going to $250 million." At the same time, the rate increase is only manage that $60 billion, although it wasn't included in going to be 1.4 percent next year. the "Debt-free B.C." commitment. Perhaps we can put [1800] that as an addendum on the next bus — an asterisk that Now, I can say that the rate hearing was disrupted says: "Debt-free except for the $60 billion in unfunded and stopped before evidence could be given and cross- liabilities for power contracts that are well above the examination take place. Th e rate increase in that pre- market rate today and will be for the foreseeable future." election year was 1.4 percent. However, the Premier's [1805] commitment to reducing the deferral accounts to $250 We can also, I suppose, pass on to our children the de- million fell a little bit short, by about $250 million. Th e ferral accounts that the Premier said, in her pre-election current deferral account total is in the $490 million enthusiasm, were going to be reduced to $250 million, range, and we now know, aft er the election, that hydro were going to be rising to about $5½ billion and then rates are going to be going up by 28 percent over the going down, miraculously, to just under $5 billion in the next fi ve years. ten-year plan that the Premier referred to. I also want to, by way of context for you, hon. Chair, so I also think that declaring victory in George Bush–like you and the committee members have a full understand- fashion, a "mission accomplished" banner, prior to the ing of this dynamic that was at play when the rate hear- election — "we've wrestled B.C. Hydro to the ground; ing was cancelled and a commitment to keep rates down we've got everything under control" — only to fi nd mir- was made…. Th e chief of staff to the Premier, not with aculously months later, aft er the votes have been counted us today for these proceedings, was recently departed as and the election has been concluded, that the situation chair of B.C. Hydro's board of directors. is in fact exactly the same as it was before the election…. During the election campaign that followed the can- It's just that now we're being candid about it. cellation of the rate hearing, another board member, Mr. Again, I'd like to go back to the issue of the former Brad Bennett, rode shotgun on the "Debt-free" bus when chair of B.C. Hydro. Mr. Doyle is well-known to all of us we were increasing the deferral accounts and we were in- in this Legislature. He's an outstanding individual. He creasing overall debt. I'm just wanting to ask: was there at has a vast amount of experience in a whole range of areas any time any discussion between your chief of staff and and now, apparently, in his latter years of his career has Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4399

discovered that he has an ability to be a political adviser. Do I want to see these aff ordability challenges for British Now that he's the senior political adviser to the Columbians? No, I don't. But what I do want to do is en- Premier, formerly the chair of B.C. Hydro would have sure that we have an honest discussion about the conse- been well-versed in the fi scal situation, well-versed in the quences of government action. markets, the cost of electricity, how much we were pay- Th at's why we raised the issues around liquefi ed natur- ing versus what the market could bear. I'm wondering al gas. Th at's why we raised the issues around the inability if he, at any time during the election campaign, paused of the jobs plan to come even remotely close to the com- for a moment to just refl ect on his views on where B.C. mitments that the Premier made. And most importantly, Hydro was going. Or did that only happen aft er the bal- when we're talking about a Crown corporation that is dir- lots were counted? ectly managed by government appointees, one of which has recently departed from the position of chair to sit as Hon. C. Clark: Well, we went in and had a very hard the senior political adviser to the premier…. look at B.C. Hydro. Th e result of that was a ten-year plan My question is again to the Premier. Did not Mr. Doyle that is going to keep electricity rates as low as we possibly make a note somewhere along the line over the past 18 can while allowing B.C. Hydro to make investments in months saying: "Oh, by the way, that 1.4 percent before assets in the future. the election might have been a good idea for votes but a I should note, actually, that the member is not correct. real bad idea for B.C. Hydro"? Th e commitment from the prosperity fund is not just to pay off the provincial debt. It's also to work with B.C. Hon. C. Clark: Well, as I said, B.C. Hydro came to cab- Ferries on their debt and B.C. Hydro on their debt, rec- inet with two diff erent proposals for big rate increases. ognizing that debt will accrue to our children, although We wrestled both of them down. We did that through a it is managed diff erently in each of those cases. professional, independent review of that conducted by Th e ten-year plan is intended to make sure that gov- Deputy Minister Dyble. Th at's how we were able to come ernment can set the fi rst two years of rate increases. But up with the ten-year plan that will allow us to invest and aft er that at 9 and 6 percent — and he'll know this from keep rates as low as we possibly can. We do want to make the media that came out of it. Th en aft er that the BCUC sure that we get and keep B.C. Hydro on a stable footing. will set the increases for the following three years. Th ose We are also, and the member referenced this, in the will be capped at 4 percent, 3½ percent and 3 percent. midst of an independent review of the B.C. Utilities Th is is the balance we've been able to fi nd between Commission. Th at includes three extremely able and making sure we are able to renew our assets and making knowledgable individuals, including Michael Costello, sure that we are keeping rates as low as we possibly can who served under the NDP government as well — al- for the people of British Columbia. though I don't want to tarnish his reputation. He is completely non-political, as far as I know, and free of in- J. Horgan: Th at's a grand yarn aft er the election but volvement in any party, but certainly had the confi dence quite inconsistent with what the Premier was saying be- of the New Democratic government when he served fore the election. "It's a tough economy. Th e hydro rates them and will now be serving this government in this are just one of the burdens that government puts on role in the review. people in terms of costs, so we're going to fi nd ways to I don't know who the member expects me to appoint pay down the deferral account to about $250 million and to cabinet except for B.C. Liberal members. I guess if he's at the same time the rate increase is only going to be 1.4 looking for a job, he should ask. percent next year." Now, that's a long distance away from 9, 4, 3½, 3½, 3 percent — a long distance away. J. Horgan: I'm tempted to say: "Was that WWF or [1810] Greco-Roman wrestling to the ground there?" You did it Again, I'm curious about Mr. Doyle's role in this de- twice, so you might have used both schools at that time. bate, although he was not appointed to do the review. It's not an independent review when you appoint pub- Mr. Dyble, Mr. Milburn and others, I think, were tasked lic servants, government employees, to do the review. with reviewing B.C. Hydro when the Premier was sworn Th at's a government review. An independent review is in. Fair enough. Good idea. I would have supported that done by people off site. if you'd asked me. I would have said: "Yeah, that's a good Th e reference to the Utilities Commission today — Mr. idea. You should do that." Costello, Mr. Ostergaard and I think Mr. Trumpy — I be- What I don't support is intervening in an independ- lieve is on a tariff issue, not specifi cally on the Utilities ent process to allow a Liberal-appointed board to tell a Commission, but I could be incorrect there and perhaps Liberal-appointed cabinet that you should intervene in we can clarify that. an independent process to keep rates artifi cially low for Th ere are two reviews underway at the present time, as political purposes. far as I'm aware. One is on the industrial tariff , which is Do I want to see hydro rates go up? Of course I don't. a consequence and concern when you've got 28 percent 4400 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

rate increases in a fragile economy, which the Premier and I've referenced that. We also have a very active plan has referenced in her remarks today. Energy-intensive — the member will see this in the ten-year plan — to con- industries don't want to see their bottom line rocked like tinue to invest in the infrastructure that is aging, infra- that, suddenly, at a time when commodity prices are low structure that was created by W.A.C. Bennett all those and their ability to meet their shareholders' expectation years ago and desperately needs to be renewed. is further exacerbated by government policy. One of the government policies — the review of 2011 J. Horgan: Your government did intervene at the that Mr. Dyble participated in — was to review water Utilities Commission repeatedly — in fact, the mother of rentals, and it was to review the dividends paid by B.C. all special directions, the Clean Energy Act, exempting Hydro to the Crown. I looked at the government docu- billions and billions and billions of dollars in capital in- ments aft er the election. Th e B.C. Liberals, through their vestment from any overview whatsoever from any in- budget documents, professed to be only taking on aver- dependent source. You did intervene in rate hearings. age about $243 million annually from B.C. Hydro in the You cancelled them. You have not allowed the Utilities form of a dividend to meet their budget requirements. Commission to set rates until two years from now, and Th en aft er the election that went up to $460-odd million. there's a cap. And you have not taken less of a dividend [1815] over ten years. You're taking less of a dividend aft er the Th at's a $200 million increase. Th e only place that can next election. come from, when you're taking it from a public utility, is It's a ten-year plan, but the fi rst four years of the plan is from ratepayers. Th at means a large portion of the rate in- to take as much as you can, and we'll see how it goes aft er crease that we are going to have to absorb as citizens and the next election, which seems to me what you just fi n- as industry and as commercial users is going to come and ished doing. "Let's stop the hearing. Let's intervene. Let's go directly to the bottom line of the provincial budget. reduce rates below what Hydro needs to meet its obliga- So again, I want to know specifi cally…. I've asked sev- tions, and we'll see how the election goes. Well, it turned eral times what Mr. Doyle's role has been in briefi ng the out okay, so let's let it rip. But make sure you keep taking Premier on Hydro issues. Does he have no opinion aft er as much as you can for the next four years, and then we'll spending that much time on the board, or does he have stop it. And if the election goes okay, we'll let it rip again." an active role in reviewing the activities of B.C. Hydro Th at doesn't seem to me to be a fi ve-year or ten-year even to this day? plan to help give certainty to industry or to consumers. Th at seems to be a political plan that has a four-year cycle, Hon. C. Clark: Th e ten-year plan progress update that and that seems to me to be unreasonable. came out in April — I'll draw the member's attention to [1820] point 5 in that. It talks about the fact that B.C. Hydro's net I have asked repeatedly on Mr. Doyle's role in all this, income and dividend to government has been calculated and I'll ask directly again. You can tell me all you want using the same formula since 1992, when the member, for about W.A.C. Bennett. I'm happy to hear that. But I real- some period of time at least — between now and then — ly would like to know: aft er W.A.C. Bennett passed away was advising the government of the day. and Mr. Doyle became chair of B.C. Hydro and then your We do have, though, a plan to change that starting chief political adviser, did he continue to advise you on in fi scal 2018, to reduce B.C. Hydro's contribution to the precarious position B.C. Hydro was in? Or did it just government by $2 billion over ten years. Th at's a very never come up? important part of making sure that the company is sus- tainable over the long term. Hon. C. Clark: Something happened between W.A.C. Same formula since 1992. We have not gone out Bennett and today, and that was ten years of neglect and and ordered B.C. Hydro to cut $300 million in rebate mismanagement at B.C. Hydro under an NDP govern- cheques pre-election. We didn't freeze hydro rates on ment that absolutely failed in every way when it came to our own. We didn't remove the BCUC from rate setting. managing the jewel of the Crown corporations in this We weren't responsible for the fact that there was no in- province. vestment in the 1990s. All of those things were actions It was the NDP government that that member advised, taken by the government that the member was advising which took the BCUC out of rate setting. It was the gov- all through the 1990s. ernment that that member advised, which forced B.C. Instead of that, what we have said is that we want to Hydro to cut a $300 cheque to every voter in the prov- fi nd our way to reducing the net dividend overall by a ince just before an election. couple of billion dollars from B.C. Hydro. We want to Now, we all know how that turned out. It wasn't too make sure we are setting out a long-term plan for people well. It put B.C. Hydro on its back foot for a long time, so that they know what the hydro rates will be, within a and in particular, most notably was the government's fail- range, and capping them at a certain rate. ure to invest in infrastructure at B.C. Hydro, just like their We're working hard to renew the BCUC at the moment, failure to invest wisely in infrastructure at B.C. Ferries. Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4401

Both companies continue to struggle to catch up from the government of the day to make those investments, that decade of neglect. but we are determined to do it, and we will get there, be- What we have done in the ten-year rate plan is we've cause British Columbians are counting on us to get there. published it. We've made it public. It's a fi rm plan, and for the very fi rst time we have a long-term, publicly avail- J. Horgan: Th ere's something that the people of British able plan to guide government and to guide B.C. Hydro, Columbia can take out of these lovely several hours we've which the public can understand so that they know had to spend together. Th at is that you can just make stuff where we're going and how we're going to get there. up and just throw it out there and call it facts. I suppose Can we do it overnight? No, we can't. But as I have said that's regrettable, and maybe that's the essence of the a number of times, you can only get where you want to business that we're in. go if you have a plan to get there. It's a plan that we have But I can't continue to listen to references to 20 years shared with the public so that we will be held account- ago when there are people who are going to have a very able for getting there. diffi cult time trying to feed their families and pay their bills when hydro rates have been doubled since 2001 and The Chair: The Leader of the Official Opposition, they've got 28 percent more to look at. You can talk about and I'd remind the member to please direct comments the 1990s all you want. Th e people of 2014 have got a through the Chair. hard row to hoe, and it's on your watch that it happened. My next question would be about the clawback of child J. Horgan: Th ank you, hon. Chair. support. Th e Premier has had some comments about that Certainly, the government did have a plan, and that publicly. I'm wondering if she's had, again, time to refl ect was to intervene in a rate hearing, artifi cially defl ate the on the consequences of her policy, the policy of the B.C. rates required by B.C. Hydro to meet their obligations — Liberal government, to take back court-mandated child obligations that were piled up over the 12 years that the support out of the hands of children because of a formula B.C. Liberals were in power, obligations that were piled that's determined by one of her ministries that this is in- up by the government I'm talking to right now. come that should be declared and removed rather than Again, I will ask a simple question. Does Dan Doyle put into feeding a child, clothing a child, making a life provide advice to the Premier on issues of B.C. Hydro? better for people living in poverty. What's the Premier's Did he advise you at the time that you intervened and view on that today? cancelled the rate hearing that that was the wrong way to go for that Crown corporation? Hon. C. Clark: I have always said that as we grow the economy, as we grow the amount of revenue to govern- Hon. C. Clark: Mr. Doyle advises politicians, includ- ment because we are focused on growing the economy, ing me, on a whole range of issues. We sometimes choose on creating new mines — or enabling the private sector, to take his advice; sometimes we don't. I can say that the I should say, to create new mines — enabling the pri- member for Kootenay East has been an excellent leader vate sector to grow a liquefi ed natural gas industry in with respect to B.C. Hydro and its future. He has worked our province, supporting the forest industry, agriculture, incredibly hard. He has been the principal source of ad- technology, manufacturing — all of those areas where vice for our government and our cabinet, as he should be we have so much opportunity…. As we grow the ability as the minister responsible for that. of government to be able to pay for social programs, we I want to add another little fact for the member, be- will continue to invest in those programs. cause he may not remember. In 1994 and '95 the NDP I have said publicly quite a few times that I certainly government that he was advising at the time took more see support for people who live on social assistance as an in annual dividend than B.C. Hydro made in net income. area that should be increased when we can aff ord it. Th e In 1994 it was $190 million income and $245 million fact is that we simply can't aff ord that right now. But as dividend. In '95, $162 million in income and $198 mil- we continue to stay in balance, as we get closer to larger lion in dividend. Th at is no way to treat the crown jewel surpluses because we're focused on growing the economy, of Crown corporations in our province. we want to continue to make sure that those programs [1825] are supporting people in the way that we all would like to. We've decided to take a diff erent path. Th at's a path [1830] where we set a plan for the future that includes putting Having said that, though, social assistance is intended B.C. Hydro on a sustainable footing, which means we're to be a bridge. We need to work hard to support people able to keep rates as low as we can at the same time that with disabilities to get into the workforce, as many, many we continue to invest in the crucially important infra- of them would dearly love to do but require specialized structure that powers up our province. support, specialized training in some cases, to get there. Th at includes catching up on the ten years of neglect We need to support them in doing that. in the 1990s. We are still catching up for that failure of We need to support people who are on social assist- 4402 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

ance, too, to fi nd the training that they need to get back On this side of the chamber we support resource de- into the workforce. Sometimes that means overcoming velopment. We aren't shy about saying that. And we unique barriers. We are working very hard on trying to support taking obstacles out of the way of responsible create programs and build a system that's going to work environmentally sound resource development. On that better for folks getting into the workforce. But of course, side of the House all of the things that the member says we want to make sure the jobs are there for them to go to. that we should do would remain elusive and unaff ordable I am a fi rm believer that a growing economy, when because he continues to put obstacles in the way of re- you invest in training, is something that can benefi t all source development and put obstacles in the way of cre- people, particularly people who are at the bottom end of ating jobs for hard-working British Columbians. the socioeconomic scale. We can lift people up into the workforce, and ultimately, that should be our goal. Th at's Th e Chair: Leader of the Offi cial Opposition, and I what we're working on now, and we're going to continue caution you to please direct comments through the Chair. to work hard, with relentless focus, on getting there. J. Horgan: Chair, I'll do my level best to continue talk- J. Horgan: During the victory speech of your Westside- ing to you, because perhaps that will be more useful than Kelowna by-election, aft er being defeated in Vancouver– what I've been doing to this point in time. Point Grey, you said the following: "We want to leave our Th ere are contingency funds in the existing budget of children better off than we were. We want to have the $300 million. A decision could be made today to take means to be able to look aft er those who are most vul- $17 million, a modest amount, from that money al- nerable among us." ready budgeted, to put towards helping children living One year ago the then Minister found $15 mil- in poverty. lion in contingencies to advertise the jobs plan, which Message boxes don't fi ll lunch boxes. What does is a we've now discovered is an abject failure. We're not in commitment by a government to the most vulnerable in the playoff s. We're not even on the radar. our society, people living in single-parent families, oft en We have a $300 million contingency in this budget, with parents with disabilities, and the court has man- $400 million in the next, $575 million in the budget aft er dated a contribution from the other parent be given to that, and $17 million is being taken away from children the child. living in poverty, money that's been mandated by the Th e province of British Columbia currently determines courts to go to children. You're taking money out of the that that is income and claws it back. It's pretty simple. hands of the poorest people in our community. Th at's It's not about LNG. It's not about mining. It's not about not giving opportunity. Th at's not giving hope. Th at's growing the economy. It's helping the poorest of the being petty. poor. Th e government has the ability to do that. It's one You've got $300 million. You took $15 million to ad- of things that our community wants us to do. vertise. Why not take $17 million and make a child's life [1835] better? You can do it today. My question to the Premier. With $17 million out of $300 million, you could solve it right now. Hon. C. Clark: I'm reasonably certain that the member opposite doesn't want to get into a long discussion about Hon. C. Clark: Well, I've already spoken to the prin- defeat in the election, so I'll leave that alone, although ciple of this, where we would like to go as we have more that was how he started his remarks. money in the budget, once we've stabilized the economy As I've said, social assistance is the minimum amount and are continuing to grow it. We want to make sure that that government provides for people to live on. We have we support people across the board better than we're able always…. We deduct any income against that. It isn't in- to aff ord to now, as we're able to aff ord it. tended to top up other income. As I said, I do hope that I don't have anything to add to the other comments as we can aff ord it, we can increase rates for people who that I made. We've been working hard to control gov- live at the bottom of the scale who rely on social assist- ernment spending. I know the member is always, always ance, people with disabilities and people without. fi nding ways for government to spend more money and But we need to be able to aff ord it. Classic — typical of never fi nding ways for government to spend less money the members opposite, he wants to spend the money be- and, certainly, rarely fi nding ways to grow the economy fore we have it. We need to grow the economy. We need on which we all depend to be able to create government to ensure that our budget is truly balanced. We need to revenue. increase the amount of money that's fl owing into gov- Th e plan that we have is seeing success. What you see ernment by pursuing economic and resource develop- in Victoria, the member's own community, is that un- ment opportunities across the province, opportunities employment has gone down from 9.5 percent in 1998 to the member consistently and loudly puts obstacles in 5.1 percent today. We want to continue to reduce those the way of. numbers across the province. Th at's what success looks Wednesday, May 28, 2014 British Columbia Debates 4403

like, and that's how we begin to really move people out tween managing decline and sinking deeper into debt, of poverty — through a growing economy. or we can grasp the opportunity for growth. It is only by grasping the opportunity for growth that we'll be able to J. Horgan: Parents on disability assistance who have continue to look aft er people. a court order requiring another parent to provide funds If we don't grasp opportunities for growth…. In our for a child — not for club memberships, not for a new province that very much means the resource sector. It frock but for a child…. Th at's the principle we're talk- means being clear and united in supporting our resource ing about here. sector, whether that's natural gas and fracking in the We're not talking about growing the economy, LNG, northeast or it's mining in other parts of the province. getting a tax regime in place. We're talking about chil- Whether it's agriculture — making sure that we can dren — the most vulnerable. I'm very passionate about keep farms and make farms profi table, keep them in the this issue because of my background, and I know that black as much as we possibly can through government the Premier has had an interesting background as well. policy — or making sure that we're supporting our for- We all know people who are in diffi cult circumstances, est industry, all of those things that we need to do in the and the role of government is to help those people, not to resource sector are going to matter in grasping this op- ignore them. Th e role of government is to look at the re- portunity for growth. sources available to them and make choices. Th e choice We have a chance to do that. We intend to do it. As I'm asking the Premier to make is, I believe, a simple one. we succeed in that, we will have the resources that we It's a compassionate one. need to be able to sustain our social welfare system, our It's one that can be allocated in the existing budget for health care system and our education system. Th ose are this fi scal, next fi scal and the fi scal aft er that. Th at would the resources that…. We're going to need those resources. give the Premier three years to sign a whole bunch of Th e only place we will get them is if we are part of a fi nal investment decisions, to have LNG coming out of government and we're governed by a group of people the ground in Nanaimo, Prince George, Williams Lake, who believe, rather than stumbling over obstacles that the Kootenays — wherever she wants to pretend it's going will ultimately get you to no, which is the NDP plan for to happen. She has the money in those three fi scal years, success, in fi nding a way to get through the obstacles and based on the service plan, to provide this basic amount to try and get to yes. of money to children living in poverty. Again, I will heap praise upon the Premier and her J. Horgan: Has the Premier asked any of her staff to government from the highest building I can fi nd if she look at options and alternatives to the current clawback will do the right thing, look at the contingency funds system? Has she, perhaps, seen if she could get any ad- and make a determination today in the interest of chil- vice from her staff or ministers about maybe designat- dren living in poverty. Th at's a simple thing, and it's a ing this as not income to the parent but income to the principled thing. child? Has that simple solution been contemplated by [1840] her or her staff ?

Hon. C. Clark: Well, one of the many reasons that Hon. C. Clark: We are not, as I said, contemplating a we've received so much praise from credit agencies change in government policy today. around the world, external agencies looking at what As I said, we would certainly like to be able to get to we're doing, is because we have managed our budget so a place where people on income assistance and persons responsibly. with disabilities can see more support from government, Part of that is making sure that the contingencies but there is a whole host of other ways that government budget is managed well. Th e contingencies budget isn't has improved support for people who rely on social as- money that you allocate at the beginning of the year sistance in one way or another. and then spend throughout the year. The contingen- We don't charge families on assistance for MSP or for cies budget is there for things like natural disasters, fi res, PharmaCare. Basic dental coverage is available for the making sure that we can aff ord those unexpected costs. children of people on assistance. For people who may It is a very diff erent way, I understand, from the way need more than that basic coverage, the ministry also with which the member is familiar with managing a provides a range of medical equipment and supplies budget. We've done it for 12 years in our province. We've through the health supplements program. done it well, and we've received support for what we've In addition to income assistance, a single parent has been doing from independent international agencies all access to about $385 a month in benefi ts that are pro- around the world. vided through the income tax system. A single parent As I said, we need to grow the economy if we want to with a child under six also has access to $100 more per be able to continue to look aft er people. I said at the be- month, per child, through the universal child care bene- ginning that Western governments have the choice be- fi t. Starting in 2015, families with children under six will 4404 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 28, 2014

have access to another $55 a month, per child, through so, would she join with me making that declaration and the early childhood tax benefi t. allowing that money to go to the children that it was in- We are doing everything we can in areas across govern- tended for? ment to try and improve government support in a var- iety of ways for people who depend on income assistance. Hon. C. Clark: As I said, we aren't contemplating a I hope that as we can aff ord it, we are able to do more, change in the policy today. We're not going to spend but my view — contrary to the member opposite's — is money before we have it. Th at's not what we were asked absolutely that we need to work on improving, growing to do on May 14 last year. So we are going to continue to our investment in social programs as we grow our econ- manage our budget carefully and prudently. As we grow omy and grow revenue to government. Th e only way we the economy and we can aff ord to make new investments, will get there is by growing our economy, and that's why we certainly will do that. we're so focused on it. If I may, I move that committee rise, report resolu- Th e Chair: Noting the hour, I'll permit one fi nal ques- tions and completion of the Ministry of Finance, Votes tion. 22 through 25; Votes 45 through 50; legislation, Vote 1; [1845] and offi cers of the Legislature, Votes 2 through 9; and report further progress on the Offi ce of the Premier and J. Horgan: Does the Premier believe, in principle, that ask leave to sit again. child support payments could be considered child in- come and therefore not be clawed back, therefore leav- Motion approved. ing that money exclusively to the interests of the child? Is that a principle that the Premier would endorse, and if Th e committee rose at 6:46 p.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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