Fourth Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Tuesday, October 27, 2015 Morning Sitting Volume 30, Number 3

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Fourth Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development and Minister Responsible for TransLink...... Hon. Minister of Education...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of Finance...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Thomson Minister of Health...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacific Strategy and Multiculturalism...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour...... Hon. Minister of Justice...... Hon. Minister of Small Business and Red Tape Reduction and Minister Responsible for the Liquor Distribution Branch...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Minister of State for Emergency Preparedness...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... John Horgan Deputy Speaker...... Richard T. Lee Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal)...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton ...... Dr. Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal)...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Hon. Mike (BC Liberal)...... Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Valemount ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal)...... Westside- Chilliwack-Hope...... Laurie Throness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Vacant Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP)...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal)...... Abbotsford West ...... Wm. Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway ...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Thompson...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal)...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal)...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Wm. Scott (BC Liberal)...... Delta North Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal)...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP)...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal)...... Surrey-Panorama Nechako Lakes...... Hon. John Rustad Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill New Westminster...... Judy Darcy Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP)...... Nanaimo North Island...... Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal)...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–North Thompson North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Larson, Linda (BC Liberal)...... Boundary-Similkameen Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal)...... Burnaby North Parksville-Qualicum...... Hon. Michelle Stilwell Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Pat Pimm Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Peace River South...... Hon. Mike Bernier McRae, Don (BC Liberal)...... Comox Valley Penticton...... Dan Ashton Martin, John (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Morris, Mike (BC Liberal)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Linda Reimer Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal)...... Cariboo North Prince George–Mackenzie...... Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal)...... Peace River North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Plecas, Dr. Darryl (BC Liberal)...... Abbotsford South Richmond Centre...... Hon. Teresa Wat Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal)...... Langley Richmond East...... Hon. Linda Reid Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Richmond-Steveston...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich North and the Islands...... Gary Holman Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal)...... Richmond East Saanich South...... Lana Popham Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Shuswap...... Greg Kyllo Rice, Jennifer (NDP)...... North Coast Skeena...... Robin Austin Robinson, Selina (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Fleetwood...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal)...... Nechako Lakes Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Panorama...... Marvin Hunt Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Tynehead...... Hon. Amrik Virk Stilwell, Hon. Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Langara Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Vancouver-Fairview...... George Heyman Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver–False Creek...... Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal)...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Thomson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Thornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Langara...... Dr. Throness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Vacant Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Vancouver–Point Grey...... David Eby Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal)...... Surrey-Tynehead Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal)...... Richmond Centre Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Vernon-Monashee...... Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yap, John (BC Liberal)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Capilano...... Vacant...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Vacant...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 33; Independent 2; Vacant 2

CONTENTS

Tuesday, October 27, 2015 Morning Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 9779

Tributes...... 9780 Franklin White N. Simons

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 9781 Small business M. Hunt Mohamed Fahmy J. Darcy Conflict resolution and mediation L. Throness Open Space arts centre C. James Workplace safety G. Kyllo Burnaby non-profit resource centre and city density bonus program K. Corrigan

Oral Questions...... 9783 Government record-keeping and freedom of information J. Horgan Hon. C. Clark D. Routley Government record-keeping and role of John Dyble K. Conroy Hon. C. Clark Freedom of information and reconciliation with First Nations S. Fraser Hon. C. Clark Government record-keeping and freedom of information M. Farnworth Hon. C. Clark Denman Island cable ferry C. Trevena Hon. T. Stone

Orders of the Day

Government Motions on Notice...... 9788 Motion 26 — Electoral Boundaries Commission report proposals (continued) A. Dix S. Gibson A. Weaver Hon. T. Lake C. James

9779

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2015 Would the House please make them welcome and thank them for the work that they do. The House met at 10:03 a.m. C. James: I have seven guests to introduce this mor- [Madame Speaker in the chair.] ning. A busy morning. I’ll be quick. The first are regular guests to this gallery. This is their Routine Business semi-annual visit. The first person is a role model to many in our community, including me, and my big- Prayers. gest supporter for the last 57 years — my mom, Mavis DeGirolamo. With her is her partner, a respected veter- Introductions by Members an and a well-loved and well-welcomed member of our family — Bill Corbin, who is with her today. J. Horgan: It’s a real privilege and a pleasure for me to October is Small Business Month, as we’ve all heard, rise and introduce an award-winning Canadian journal- and I have the pleasure today of having lunch with ist, Mohamed Fahmy, and his wife, Marwa Omara, who one of those amazing entrepreneurs in our commun- are with us today in the gallery. ity. Senwood Soaps is the name of her business. It’s a Members of this House will be aware that Mohamed Victoria-based, small-batch soapmaker. I’d like the House was recently pardoned after he and two other journalists to please welcome owner, Rosalyn Lee, and her friend were arrested in 2013 in Egypt by Egyptian authorities Melinda Hollefreund, who are here today to enjoy our and unjustly jailed for 438 days. Courageously, Mohamed lunch in the gallery. Welcome. has made his way to British Columbia. Motivated by his Last but not least, I have a number of guests who are experiences behind bars in Egypt, Mohamed and Marwa here from Open Space Gallery. Helen Marzolf is the dir- have established the Fahmy Foundation to provide finan- ector of Open Space, which is an artist-run centre in cial assistance and advocacy for reporters and photog- Victoria. Hunter Boucher is the chair of the board of dir- raphers unjustly imprisoned worldwide — a tremendous ectors of Open Space, and Mary-Lynn Ogilvie is one of and, again, a courageous undertaking by Mohamed and Open Space’s board members. Would the House please his supporters. make them very welcome as well. He has recently arrived in British Columbia to take up his role as the global reporting journalist at the University Hon. T. Lake: Many times when I’m slinging my back- of British Columbia’s journalism school and to be a fellow pack over one shoulder filled with all of the many briefing at UBC’s Centre for Applied Ethics — a role, of course, notes that I’m provided with on a daily basis, I think of the that was started before he was imprisoned. B.C. Chiropractic Association’s message to wear my back- [1005] pack correctly. “Pack it light and wear it right.” We also I’m also pleased to introduce Mohamed’s legal coun- think of “Think twice and lift once” and “Straighten up,” sel and fellow Fahmy Foundation board members Gary as the B.C. Chiropractic Association tries to raise pub- Caroline and Joanna Gislason, who are also joining him lic awareness of maintaining our musculoskeletal health. in the gallery today. In the gallery this morning, we have the president of It is a real pleasure and a privilege that the Fahmys the B.C. Chiropractic Association, Dr. Jay Robinson, as have chosen British Columbia to be their home and to well as the executive director, Rick Nickelchok. Later to- continue their work of advocacy for justice and ethics, day, I’ll be meeting with them and look forward to that. internationally and starting right here at the University Would the House please make our guests very welcome. of British Columbia. Would the House please make them both very welcome. R. Lee: In the gallery today, we have two visitors from Burnaby, Terry Beech and his wife, Ravi Bansal Beech. Hon. S. Anton: It’s my pleasure to introduce to the They are in Victoria seeing their relatives and just dropping House Monique Steensma, CEO of Mediate British by to attend question period today. Terry is no stranger to Columbia. Mediate B.C. is a key partner in providing public services. He was 18 when he won a city council pos- increased access to justice for all British Columbians. ition in Nanaimo — the youngest city councillor in Canada. Last week was Conflict Resolution Week, and I know Would the House please join me in welcoming the Member Monique and her staff were busy in communities across of Parliament–elect for Burnaby North–Seymour. B.C., helping people understand how mediation works and the services available to them. Welcome, Monique. G. Holman: I have a number of very special guests She is joined by our staff Jamie Deitch and Lisa visiting the precinct today — 23 students from Pender Nakamura. Lisa is the senior policy analyst in the dis- Islands School and their teacher, Mr. Claude Kennedy, and pute resolution office, and Jamie, of course, is the super- parents. Would the House please make them feel welcome. visor of that office and was introduced here last week. [1010] 9780 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

Hon. A. Virk: A few weeks ago, I was fortunate enough of Canada’s leading entertainment lawyers and, later, as to visit Camosun College and see some of the work done senior vice-president, business affairs and e-commerce, by their mechanical engineering students. The approach at Universal Music Canada, where he was instrumental these students and their professors have taken to work in the launch of Puretracks, Canada’s first legal digital with industry to try to fix real world problems as part download music service. of the curriculum adds another level to their education. Graham contributes his time to the boards of directors Not only are they being schooled in theory and in prac- at the corporation of Massey Hall, Roy Thomson Hall tice, they are all learning valuable customer relation skills. and Re:Sound music licensing company and is vice-chair Visiting from Camosun College today for question per- of the board of Ontario Chamber of Commerce. Will the iod are mechanical engineering students Paul Swalwell, House please join me in making him feel welcome. Wesley Block. We have Tyler Lee-Jarvis, Lisa Bethel, Keith Jacobsen and Bruce Watson. Also visiting with Tributes them today are their professors, who are very dedicated to their education — Will Spaulding and Jeffrey Stephen. FRANKLIN WHITE Will the House please make them feel welcome. N. Simons: Frank White, pioneer, raconteur and au- J. Yap: On behalf of the Minister of International Trade, thor of best-selling books, died October 18 at his home I have the honour to introduce some constituents of hers. in Garden Bay. White claimed to be British Columbia’s In the precincts today are Ms. Tai Lai Ying, Mr. Cheng oldest active author when he published his memoir, That Kam San, Mr. Tai Wai Kit and Ms. Wang Ye Rur. They are Went By Fast, at the age of 100 in 2014. in the House today with a guest from Shanghai, Mr. Luo A working man and small business man who didn’t Ming Xun. I hope that Mr. Luo will have a pleasant and retire until age 80 and wrote about his long life in a col- memorable visit to British Columbia. Would the House loquial, unvarnished way, White’s trademark was his please welcome these visitors. self-deprecating humour. “I got used to thinking my life hadn’t amounted to much,” he wrote, “and it seemed most G. Kyllo: It’s a pleasure today to welcome to the House people agreed with me on that. Now it’s ‘Oh, you rode in a constituent from Salmon Arm, Ms. Gabriele Klein. a horse and buggy. You worked on a steam donkey show. Gabriele is joined today by her brother Wally Klein. Your girlfriend was a flapper. You should write a book.’ By Gabriele is quite simply a pillar of our community in hanging around so long, it seems I’ve become an object Salmon Arm. of historical interest.” She’s a volunteer extraordinaire, having been a driv- His was a typical life for a British Columbian of his ing force for the past 20 years behind organizations in- time, comprised mostly of endless hard work, although cluding the Salmon Arm Art Gallery and the Shuswap on the evidence of his stories, it was seldom dull. He grew Community Foundation. Gabriele has also given many up in Abbotsford, the son of the butcher, and at age eight hours of volunteer service to the Salmon Arm–Kamloops began serving customers in his father’s shop by standing symphony committee, the Shuswap Music Festival, the on a butter box so he could see over the counter. rotary club and Ducks Unlimited. His father bought the first Model-T delivery truck in Somehow she’s found time to be with us here today Abbotsford but couldn’t get the hang of the horseless car- in the House. I’d like all members of the House to please riage, so young Frankie taught himself to operate it, lying make Gabriele and her brother Wally feel very welcome. about his age to get his driver’s licence at age 13. “By the age of 13, I already had two professions: butcher and S. Sullivan: I am very pleased to introduce to the truck driver,” he wrote. House an outstanding citizen. I know him as the part- [1015] ner in Katami Designs. They provide studio space for He built on his early start to follow the trucking boom local artists on Broadway and Main in Vancouver. I’ve that hit B.C. in the ’30s and ’40s, pioneering highway known him as the owner of the Delta Ice Hawks hockey freighting and then truck logging. In the 1950s, he be- team. He’s a quiet supporter of many community groups came a small-scale gyppo logger before moving to the through his company, Proactive Building Maintenance. coastal fishing village of Pender Harbour, where he oper- Please welcome Darrin Pezer. ated an excavating business, a gas station and a munici- pal water system. J. Sturdy: Today it is my pleasure to introduce Graham Along the way, he endured shipwrecks, topped 200- Henderson, president of Music Canada, an association foot spar trees, fought forest fires, got physical with log that promotes the interests of the Canadian music com- rustlers, built houses, built boats, raised a family, dabbled munity. Graham has been instrumental in improving in politics, built early computers, buried a beloved wife the protection of creators’ rights. Graham has also been and daughter, travelled the world and wrote books. working with artists for more than 25 years — first, as one At age 92, he married the New Yorker writer Edith Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9781

Iglauer, 89, and they continued to live in their small, I therefore ask this House to join me in recognizing waterfront cottage in Pender Harbour. He died peacefully, the significant contribution that companies like Emterra with his family and caregivers around him and his sense of make to British Columbia and the strong province that humour intact. In his final hours, when a nurse asked him we live in today. how he was, he whispered, between gasps: “100 percent.” White was bemused by his longevity and the celeb- MOHAMED FAHMY rity that came with it. “When I was 50 and still had most of my marbles,” he wrote, “all people wanted me to tell J. Darcy: What a powerful moment it is to look up in them was why their car stalled at the intersection. Now the gallery today and see Mohamed Fahmy and his cour- that everything is starting to get hazy, they’re not satisfied ageous wife, Marwa Omara. This province, this country unless I can tell them the meaning of life.” On that score, and the world now know their story. Mohamed Fahmy, he wasn’t venturing any great pronouncements. “Life is an award-winning Canadian journalist, spent 430 days life. It’s not under our control, and it doesn’t follow any in an infamous Cairo prison for simply doing his job, do- script. It just is.” He might have added: “Life goes a lot ing what we, in this place, take for granted — 438 days of easier if you’ve got a good sense of humour.” not knowing his fate, locked up with convicted extrem- Franklin Wetmore White was born May 9, 1914, in ists, all the time with a serious injury for which he did Sumas, Washington. He leaves his wife, Edith Iglauer; not receive critical care. a daughter, Marilyn; two sons, Howard and Donald; six Mohamed was jailed after a mock trial that was grandchildren; and eight great-grandchildren. denounced as a travesty of justice around the world. Throughout it all his fiancée, Marwa, now his wife, stood Statements by his side and became the public spokesperson for a (Standing Order 25B) global campaign to free him that eventually brought them to this place. SMALL BUSINESS [1020] What is also so moving about this story is that at the M. Hunt: Madame Speaker, 98 percent of all business- same time that Mohamed was fighting for his own free- es in British Columbia are small businesses. As a matter dom, he created the Fahmy Foundation for a Free Press to of fact, there are 380,000 small businesses currently oper- bring the plight of other imprisoned journalists to public ating in B.C. They employ more than a million British attention and to campaign for their freedom. Columbians and account for more than a third of the This has indeed been a family affair for Mohamed and provincial economy. Marwa. They’ve come through it all together, and they are Because they make a giant impact on our economic now building a wonderful new life together here in B.C., prosperity, we celebrate Small Business Month here in relishing their new-found freedom, exploring the parks October. This is more than just a month of recognition. and beaches and streets of Vancouver, the city they now It’s an opportunity for government, both provincial and call home. Mohamed is sharing his experiences as a jour- local, to ensure that we are the most business-friendly nalist-in-residence and visiting fellow at UBC’s Global jurisdictions in the world. That means cutting unneces- Reporting Centre, and he’ll also be doing that here today. sary red tape or placing too heavy a regulatory burden Mohamed’s and Marwa’s story is one of incredible on small business so that they can no longer be competi- courage. It reminds us how central press freedom is to tive. We want to ensure that small businesses have access a free, democratic and open society. I know we all join to all the information, tools and resources to thrive in together and are deeply honoured to welcome them to British Columbia. this Legislature today. One such business that started off with humble begin- nings is the Emterra Group. Founded in 1976, Emterra CONFLICT RESOLUTION AND MEDIATION began with cardboard and paper recycling and has quick- ly grown into one of the most state-of-the-art waste L. Throness: This morning I want to talk about stream companies in North America. Conflict Resolution Week, which was held from October In her own words, Emterra’s founder, Emmie Leung, 17 to 24. The week’s theme was “Let’s talk it out,” promot- says it this way. “I have a strong personal belief that ing the benefits of mediation as an affordable and effect- there is value in everything and in everyone. That belief, ive alternative to going to court. coupled with an entrepreneurial spirit, compels me to We want to improve access to mediation for British view challenges not as barriers but as opportunities, and Columbians. Our civil resolution tribunal will soon pro- it enabled me to build Emterra from a small, local curb- vide on-line dispute resolution tools as an alternative to side collection of cardboard into what it is today, one of the courts. We established the Family Law Act to encour- the largest integrated resource management companies age out-of-court resolution, and today B.C.’s 21 family serving Canadians.” justice centres and three justice access centres are help- 9782 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

ing families in the midst of separation and divorce find I would encourage all British Columbians to visit beneficial and respectful ways forward. Open Space in person on the second floor at 510 Fort Mediate B.C. is a partner in this effort. As part of Street and at their website at openspace.ca — an oppor- Conflict Resolution Week, Mediate B.C. arranged free tunity to expand your mind, engage your senses and sup- events in communities across the province, including in port artists who take risks. Chilliwack, to help individuals connect with services and [1025] understand how mediation works. In recognition of Conflict Resolution Week, we want WORKPLACE SAFETY to welcome Monique Steensma, CEO of Mediate B.C., to this House today. We thank Mediate B.C. for its work G. Kyllo: Workplace safety is one of our government’s and are proud to recognize it, along with this newly pro- highest priorities. Employees deserve to work in a safe claimed week, in B.C. I would also like to thank the com- environment. For employers, it’s just good business. The munity of professionals in both the private and public FIOSA-MIOSA Safety Alliance is a not-for-profit organ- sectors who work to minimize the stress and financial ization that helps B.C. companies deal with their chal- burden of conflict and help British Columbians find a lenges and opportunities specific to manufacturing in the path forward. food and beverage industries and sets industry standards Conflict seems to come easily to us. It is harder to for health and safety. make peace. But mediation can prevent, manage and FIOSA-MIOSA is home to the occupational safety resolve conflict, and that’s what we’re determined to do. standard of excellence accreditation program. The OSSE certification rewards organizations that have created a OPEN SPACE ARTS CENTRE culture of safety in their operations. It also takes a best- practices approach to health, safety, injury management C. James: From soundscapes to performance pieces, and return-to-work management systems. imaginative bright shapes to stark industrial lines, multi- Starting today, in Burnaby, FIOSA-MIOSA is hosting media installations to transformative architectural de- its annual Make It Safe Conference. The two-day Make signs, the world of contemporary art is invigorating and It Safe Conference provides an opportunity for health adventurous. and safety professionals to catch up and discuss the most For more than 40 years, Open Space has been a leader pressing and challenging issues in health and safety man- in fostering the amazing diversity of contemporary art agement. The conference brings together occupational in this city, across Canada and beyond. Open Space is safety experts to share and discuss safe workplace meas- an exhibition and performance centre where artists work ures. Speakers and delegates will discuss topics such as across disciplines, media, cultures and communities. people, processes and economics of health and safety They are artists like France Trépanier, the second ab- and the most urgent and challenging issues in health and original artist-in-residence at Open Space. One of her safety management. projects’ offerings is an installation that will be augmented I ask my colleagues on both sides of the House to join by contributions from three regional artists, connecting me in thanking FIOSA-MIOSA for the work it does every Open Space’s work directly to First Nations communities. day to make our province’s workplaces safer for all B.C. Previous installations include one by the celebrated sound families. sculptor and composer Trimpin. His project gave new life to an array of abandoned pianos, creating an enormous BURNABY NON-PROFIT RESOURCE CENTRE musical instrument and culminating in a concert. AND CITY DENSITY BONUS PROGRAM Open Space recently hosted Tahltan artist Peter Morin. Drawing on recordings of traditional songs from 1910, K. Corrigan: Last Friday was the official opening of Morin has performed around the world, looking at the Burnaby’s new Pioneer Community Resource Centre, power of traditional songs and their eventual repatria- which provides space to local non-profits at reduced rents. tion to the land that inspired their creation. It’s all part of The beautiful centre is located within the new Sovereign Open Space’s dedication to be a space where artists can development in Metrotown. This Bosa Properties de- investigate new ideas and challenge us. That’s something velopment includes a 45-storey mixed-use highrise tow- that artists certainly do best. er above a 14-storey commercial podium and includes As a social enterprise, Open Space now covers nearly a both the Element hotel and the new headquarters for third of its own costs. Private donations and government COPE Local 378. grants also help considerably. As a not-for-profit artist- I want to recognize the partnership between the city run centre, Open Space strives to make contemporary art of Burnaby and Bosa Properties, which allowed the accessible and affordable. Citizens can become members city to provide community space in exchange for addi- for a very small fee, and there are plenty of volunteer and tional density. The Bosa family business has operated in student opportunities. Burnaby for 50 years and has a strong commitment to the Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9783

community. I want to thank Dale, Colin and Sylvia, also, Well, it turns out he was the only honourable person in for attending the opening. this sorry affair. He was the only one that was prepared to The two organizations that now call the 6,000-square- stand up to bullies — surrounded by bullies telling him foot resource centre home are Burnaby Family Life, to delete information that didn’t belong to the minister which offers a variety of family and individual counsel- but belonged to the people of British Columbia. ling, parenting and child care services, and the Burnaby My question to the present Premier is: has she got Hospice Society. the jam to apologize to Mr. Duncan on the behalf of her Through working in partnership with developers in government? the community benefit bonus program, the city has been very successful in providing numerous facilities that have Hon. C. Clark: Ms. Denham’s report is a compre- made a substantial contribution to community life in our hensive report. She has, in the report, found that there city. As community develops, the city closes gaps in so- was not a common application of transitory documents cial services and steps up to make sure that communities across government, that there was different treatment are complete. of documents across government under the act. That’s This is the fifth such city-owned non-profit space -hous good advice. We appreciate and accept that advice and ing dozens of non-profit community service agencies. In the recommendations. addition, the city’s density bonus program has resulted in Further to that, what I’ve done is I’ve asked David three child care centres, affordable and special needs hous- Loukidelis, who is a former Information and Privacy ing, park enhancements, four civic facilities and a number Commissioner and also a former Deputy Attorney of environmental and urban design improvements. General, to come in and assist in making sure that there Congratulations to Burnaby city council, to Bosa is indeed that common application of the rules under the Properties and the Bosa family and Burnaby Family Life act, that there is complete training for all political staff and and the hospice society, who worked together to bring ministers and people across government who are deal- this initiative to completion. ing with transitory documents and any other suggestions and recommendations that he might have to ensure that Oral Questions we’re keeping up to date with what is an era of new forms of communication, an exploding number of documents GOVERNMENT RECORD-KEEPING that are available that are being spent, and making sure AND FREEDOM OF INFORMATION that all of that work is modernized and up to date — and not just that but looking forward, as well, as technology J. Horgan: Last week the Privacy Commissioner, changes, to make sure that we continue to be up to date. Elizabeth Denham, issued what could only be described Her report will be very helpful in helping us do that, as a scathing report into the evasive and deceptive activ- and having Mr. Loukidelis to advise us is also, again, I ities of the B.C. Liberal government. The Premier’s office think, going to be a vital part of that process. was at the centre of that investigation, as was the office of the Minister of Transportation and the minister respon- Interjections. sible for the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act. The evasions just weren’t confined to those outlined Madame Speaker: I would ask all members to ensure in the report. We now know that the Attorney General’s that the Chair hears the answer and the question. ministry — I assume directed by the Premier’s office — The Leader of the Opposition on a supplemental. tried to delay and defer Ms. Denham’s report until after this House rose so the government could again avoid J. Horgan: I suppose Windows 95 is an update on Post- scrutiny. it Notes, so we’re making some progress. But technology What’s truly reprehensible — beyond the obvious of isn’t the issue if you’re not keeping the records. If you’re the government believing that they own information of not keeping the records, it doesn’t matter what platform British Columbia, not the people of British Columbia — you’re using, what operating system you’re using, whether and what’s truly despicable is the character assassination you’re using yellow Post-it Notes or blue Post-it Notes. If that was undertaken by the B.C. Liberal Party, by the B.C. you’re not keeping records, there are no records. Liberal caucus and by the B.C. Liberal Premier with re- Now, the worst part of this whole thing, aside from spect to Mr. Tim Duncan. the character assassination of Mr. Duncan, is that the Mr. Duncan came forward with allegations that have genesis of this was a simple request of the Minister of been proven to be correct. What was the Liberal re- Transportation, who had allegedly conducted a consul- sponse at that time to anyone who would listen? “He tation along the Highway of Tears. The opposition asked was a disgruntled employee. He wasn’t very good. We for e-mails, correspondence and memorandums and got had to let him go.” back: “No records.” We know the result of that is direc- [1030] tion from the minister’s office to delete those records. 9784 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

Under oath, we had a ministerial assistant, hired by the er required for a business purpose.” That is an accurate Premier’s office, who lied to an officer of the Legislature. understanding of the act. We need to make sure that is He has now been removed. We have two other individ- applied commonly all across government. uals involved in this. The MA to the minister respon- In core government, we produce something like 220 sible for the act, Mr. Facey — again, no records found, million e-mails a year. We need to make sure that there is although when we FOI’d the minister, plenty of Mr. a common understanding. In the meantime, I’ve directed Facey’s records appeared. So he deliberately ignored and all political staff and all ministers to cease deleting any e- circumvented the law. And, critically, when it comes to mail that they may have sent so that we can ensure that the Premier’s own office…. while Mr. Loukidelis does his work, all of those e-mails — whether or not they are transitory and should have Interjections. properly been disposed of under the act — are preserved.

J. Horgan: A bit sensitive, hon. Speaker, and it’s a pat- Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition on a tern, also, with this government. If the Auditor General further supplemental. finds fault, there’s something wrong with the Auditor General. When the children’s representative finds fault, J. Horgan: Again, it always amazes me that when we there’s something wrong with the children’s representa- come in here, it’s as if the Liberal government was just tive. And now that the Privacy Commissioner has found born yesterday. There is a sucker born every minute, but fault, well, we’ll bring someone else in because there’s it’s not the people of British Columbia. They smell a rat. something wrong with her too. Why don’t you listen to They know something’s amiss here, and they’re not go- what you’re being told? ing to be satisfied with the Premier taking one line about transitory documents out of a 60-page report and claim- Madame Speaker: Question. ing that that’s the reason we delete everything that comes through our office. Not acceptable. J. Horgan: The third strike, after the Minister of Let’s go through the greatest hits of openness and Transportation, after the Minister of Citizens’ Services, transparency on the Premier’s watch. Mr. Dyble, her was directly in the Premier’s office. When I asked the handpicked deputy minister, oversaw the investigation of Premier last May what she would do if she found staff in a guy named Ken Boessenkool, who was removed from contravention of the law, she said she would not toler- government — a human resources matter. I think any- ate it. Right in her midst, the second deputy chief of staff one who’s worked in the public sector or the private sector to violate the rules of operation in British Columbia has understands that when you dismiss someone, you usually been found wanting. Will the Premier stick to her word come up with something more than a Post-it Note. But in this House and outside of this House and remove Ms. when we asked for information about Mr. Boessenkool’s Cadario post-haste? departure? No records found. [1035] Marcia McNeil reviewed the despicable treatment of health care researchers in this province, and when we Hon. C. Clark: I want to start by…. I think it’s really asked for Mr. Dyble’s records on that, we had: “No rec- important to correct the record on this. No one in gov- ords found.” In fact, in Ms. McNeil’s report, she was un- ernment has done anything but express acceptance in able to come to a conclusion on accountability because welcoming the report from the Privacy Commissioner of the dearth of documents. — absolutely. It’s important work that she’s done, and it’s It may well be that the Premier is transitory, and I’m work that will guide us. hopeful that that’s the case, but the documents that be- In order to make sure that we implement the changes long to British Columbians should be available when that she’s recommended in the report to make sure that they’re asked for, and that has not been the case on her staff are properly trained across government to make watch. The most open and transparent government in sure that there’s a common application of the act — par- British Columbia’s history is not overseen by her. ticularly, with respect to transitory documents but other My question to the Premier is again with respect to her documents as well — we have retained David Loukidelis, own office and her own staff. If Ms. Cadario has no -rec a former commissioner, to make sure that all of the ords, is that not inconsistent with what the Premier just recommendations she’s made are properly, thoroughly said a few months ago? I know it’s way back there. You’ve and professionally acted upon, right across government. got to get in the way-back machine to go to May. But in One of the things that she says in her report is that the May, she said it wasn’t tolerable. Why is it tolerable today? routine destruction of transitory documents is necessary to reduce the volume of government records and man- Hon. C. Clark: As I’ve said in answer to the member’s age the cost of those managing those records. “Transitory question already, the Privacy Commissioner has found records are routinely destroyed when they are no long- that there is not a consistent application in the way we Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9785

treat transitory documents across government. There is no Madame Speaker: The member for Nanaimo–North obligation under the act to make sure that all documents — Cowichan on a supplemental. duplicates and transitory documents — are preserved. In fact, the act specifically allows for them to be disposed of D. Routley: It seems to me that the way the Premier because of the cost — and other reasons — of saving them. would do it would be to adopt a culture of openness in But we are making sure that no documents that anyone her own office and set the example rather than develop a sends are being deleted while Mr. Loukidelis does his work. culture of concealment. Even if the opposition leader doesn’t, I certainly wel- The issues manager or FOI coordinator for the come Mr. Loukidelis back to British Columbia. He’s an Premier’s office painted a vivid picture of how he goes expert in this area. He will make sure that we have the guid- about collecting FOI records. Once he receives a request, ance and the training that we need for the consistent appli- he personally speaks with each individual — nine separ- cation all across government as the Privacy Commissioner ate people within the executive branch — to ask whether has told us we need to. We look forward to doing that work, or not they have responsive records. He doesn’t corres- making sure that it is done as quickly, consistently and pro- pond by e-mail or telephone. He records their answers fessionally as possible, and I have every confidence that Mr. on Post-it notes and then gets rid of the note after deal- Loukidelis is going to help us get there. ing with the request. He does not keep any other record. [1040] Can the Premier explain why, given her government’s massive investment in computer technology — laptops, D. Routley: The Information Commissioner found desktops, iPads and smartphones, the evolving technol- that the executive branch of the Premier’s office broke ogy that she boasted about last week and here today — the law. She notes that the very person responsible for co- her FOI coordinator conducts important government ordinating access to information for the office is also the record searches via Post-it notes? director of issues management. Despite being in charge of managing the freedom-of-information process and de- Hon. C. Clark: In his effort to make political points spite claims by the minister and the Premier that training today, the member ignores the fact that the govern- would be provided over years and years, he has received ment now posts hundreds of thousands of documents a total of one hour of training. That shows you exactly proactively, without request, and makes public on the how much respect this Premier has for the public’s right Internet. We’ve done that not because we were asked to to information. or required to, not because people even requested the Can the Premier explain why the person she assigned documents, but because we believe that that information to keep a lid on embarrassing information about the should be accessible to the public. Premier is also charged with ensuring the public has legal That has been part of the commitment that we’ve access to those records? followed through on. In 2013-14, we fulfilled more freedom-of-information requests than all of the prai- Hon. C. Clark: Well, the member is wrong, inaccur- rie provinces combined in that same year. We produce ate, incorrect on a number of counts — in particular, 40,000 boxes of information to join the million boxes of the finding that the Privacy Commissioner has accused information that are being stored on paper and that we people in my office of breaking the law. She simply didn’t are preserving securely across government. do that in her report. We are working to make sure that we both protect the Having said that, though, her report is one that I cer- public’s right to privacy as well as ensure the public’s ac- tainly welcome. We look forward to being able to make cess to information. We have a duty to do so under the sure that we deliver on the recommendations that she has act. Mr. Loukidelis will be a welcome…. His advice will made. The way to do that is to make sure that we bring certainly be a welcome addition to that, as is the report in one of the most respected professionals in this area from the commissioner herself. anywhere in Canada — a former Privacy Commissioner [1045] in British Columbia, a former Deputy Attorney General. We want to make sure that we improve this process, He is going to make sure that we are consistently ap- that there’s a consistent application across government. plying the act right across government; make sure that we The public is depending on us to do that, and that is what are also looking forward into the future as new technolo- we are in the process of doing right now. gies, as the growth in the number of e-mails continues — we send something like 220 million e-mails a year, just in GOVERNMENT RECORD-KEEPING AND core government alone; make sure that we find ways to ROLE OF JOHN DYBLE ensure that the public access to information is honoured, that our duty in that respect is absolutely met at the same K. Conroy: The Premier isn’t prepared to ask the com- time that we meet all of the other obligations that are missioner to investigate, but she is prepared to let John given to us and bestowed upon us by the act. Dyble fix her office’s e-mail problems. I’m guessing that his 9786 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

first task is going to be to order much more Post-it notes. Interjections. John Dyble’s record in this government is well known, and transparency is not a word most people would as- Madame Speaker: Members. sociate with him. In fact, we submitted an FOI for all e- mails, memos, briefing notes, correspondence, reports… K. Conroy: We FOI’d any correspondence he shared with the former head of the Public Service Agency about Interjections. developing the terms of reference for the McNeil report on the health firings — the report that found “a dearth of Madame Speaker: Members. documents.” Guess what we got back. No records. To the Premier. How exactly is a man who produces K. Conroy: …or other documentation regarding the no records, while working in the Premier’s office, going firing of health researchers that Mr. Dyble sent or re- to ensure that that same office starts keeping records? ceived over a two-year period. Guess what the response was. No records. Hon. C. Clark: I think I have addressed adequately, or To the Minister of Citizen Services’ or the Premier: this at least certainly a number of times, the questions with is a man you’re entrusting to improve records retention respect to freedom of information that have been raised in the Premier’s office? in this House. [1050] Hon. C. Clark: Further evidence today that members I do want to speak just for a second, again, to the issues should probably update the question that was written for with respect to my deputy, who is a longtime civil servant. them before they come into question period. Based on John Dyble has an exemplary record in our civil service, the information that has already been provided in ques- including as the deputy minister who helped build the tion period, I’d like to correct her on a couple of points. Port Mann Bridge, which they opposed; the South Fraser The Privacy Commissioner has issued a report. It is Perimeter Road, which they opposed; the deputy minis- subsequent to the work and the investigatory and review ter who helped make sure that we could bring Site C for- work that she did. That report is out. David Loukidelis, ward and get that started, which they opposed. not John Dyble, is going to be making sure that we im- He was the deputy minister that helped us make plement the recommendations of that report properly sure that we could plan and put together the McKenzie across government. There are many details that are going Avenue interchange, which they would have cancelled; to need to be worked through, including exactly how the the Joe and Rosalie family health centre, which they training will be conducted and the nature of that train- would have cancelled; the Penticton Regional Hospital, ing as well, based on the advice of the commissioner. We which they would have cancelled. look forward to the results of that report. John Dyble has an exemplary record in our public The member stands up, though, and she — as other service of helping make sure that we build the projects members of the opposition have — talks about people in that are going to ensure a legacy for our province and the civil service — not political staff but people like John are going to create thousands of jobs for working British Dyble — who have served this province for over two dec- Columbians. We support working British Columbians. ades, including serving when they were in government We want to make sure that there are jobs for men and — governments of all stripes. I think to impugn his repu- women all across our province. tation today is really completely unnecessary. Whatever they want to say about this dedicated civil I think that the member should stand up today, with- servant, they’re wrong. He’s made a tremendous contri- draw the comments that she has made about him. It’s bution, and we all have so much to be proud of when it unfair. It’s uncalled for. He has a long record of public comes to the work he’s done. service, and we are proud, over the many decades he has served our province, of the contribution that he has made FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND to British Columbia. RECONCILIATION WITH FIRST NATIONS

Madame Speaker: The member for Kootenay West S. Fraser: The Premier likes to think that this is just on a supplemental. a debate about which e-mails should be kept and which should be deleted, but it’s much broader than that. It’s K. Conroy: I’m sure the Premier has much more issues about a government that’s so bereft in basic decency to apologize for in this House than anybody on this side. that it’s alienated the very people that it’s trying to rec- The head of the public service didn’t have a single re- oncile with. cord over two years about the biggest human resources Yesterday Grand Chief Stewart Phillip of the Union scandal in B.C. history. Forgive us if we find that a bit of B.C. Indian Chiefs described the Premier’s action in hard to swallow. Perhaps it was an anomaly. this way. “Such deliberate and systemic violations of the Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9787

Freedom of Information Act by employees of the prov- Why is it that this Premier makes a mockery of open- ince, including the Premier’s senior advisers and minis- ness and transparency and has the unbelievable inability ters, point to a culture of obstruction, secrecy and deceit,” to follow the law? and the Premier’s behaviour reflects contempt for the law “that is reminiscent of Stephen Harper’s Conservative Hon. C. Clark: Well, as I’ve said a number of times government.” already, I do expect every single member of the political staff, ministers and members of government to be fol- Madame Speaker: Member. lowing all of the requirements of the act. Certainly, that’s been my response to the commissioner’s report, and we S. Fraser: Hon. Speaker, that’s the end of the quote. welcome the recommendations she’s brought in. Does the Premier believe that the path to reconcilia- In order, though, to make sure that we give life to those tion involves obstruction, secrecy and deceit? recommendations, we make sure that there is a com- mon application all across government. We are going Hon. C. Clark: Well, in politics, there are optimists, to be supported by David Loukidelis in doing that. Mr. and there are pessimists. There are those who are nega- Loukidelis is going to ensure, I hope, that we are able to tive and those who are positive. There are those who look have all of the training that staff need and make sure that to the future and feel fear and despair, and there are those we are also living up to all of the obligations under the act. who look to the future and welcome change. It’s really important that British Columbians know that On this side of the House, we believe in looking they have access to the information to which they have a forward to the future with hope, in building a British right, and we want to make sure that that continues and is Columbia that is going to be one that creates jobs for enhanced. British Columbians are depending on our gov- people all across the province. Every day what we hear ernment to build a better future for themselves and for from the opposition is the exact opposite. their children. We remain focused on that — growing our If the member wants to make comparisons about who’s economy, making sure that we have resources and bene- like who, I think what British Columbians can do any fits to share among us so that we can build a fair and a just day is turn on the television, look at this House and see society in British Columbia that is the envy of the world. who it is who has an optimistic, positive vision for the future — a British Columbia that is inclusive, one that is DENMAN ISLAND CABLE FERRY wealthy and one that is focused on making sure that our children have a better future. It isn’t on that side of the C. Trevena: B.C. Ferries has spent $15 million on the House. It’s right over here. Denman Island cable ferry experiment. It’s to replace the newest ferry serving the minor routes, and so far, it’s not GOVERNMENT RECORD-KEEPING very good news. AND FREEDOM OF INFORMATION Start-ups are delayed. There are reports of rusting cables, worse fuel consumption than the present ferry, M. Farnworth: Well, the people of British Columbia and Transport Canada sea trials — supposed to begin in look to the Premier and the government to follow the law. the summer — have still not started. There are also ques- That’s what they want. tions about the ability of the ferry to stop and then regain Four times the Privacy Commissioner has found fault speed and the ability to avoid the southeasters that blow with this Premier and her government. Four times: on down Baynes Sound. Promised savings from crew num- the Boessenkool affair, the quick-wins affair, the health bers aren’t likely to come, because there are reports that firings affair and Highway of Tears affair. Four times B.C. Ferries’ plan to have no master on board, no captain finding fault with this government when it comes to fol- of the vessel, has been rejected. lowing the law of this land, of this province, regarding To the Minister of Transportation, what’s he going to freedom of information and privacy. do if this experiment fails? Each time the Premier gets caught, each time the Privacy Commissioner nails the Premier, she stands with Hon. T. Stone: Well, here we go again — negative, the crocodile tears and says: “Oh, I’ll do better. I want negative, negative from members of the opposition. everybody to do well. I’m putting my foot down this time.” Well, guess what. The fourth time now, a report has Interjections. come out, and the report’s really clear. It says in the find- ings: “I find that the Office of the Premier contravened Madame Speaker: Members will come to order. its duty under section 6(1) of FIPPA to make every rea- Please continue. sonable effort to respond without delay.” That’s the find- ing of the commissioner. Hon. T. Stone: When we see that fares at B.C. Ferries [1055] are now in line with inflation, about four years ahead 9788 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

of schedule, do we hear any positive acknowledgment are precisely the same boundaries. Indeed, in the city of of that from members opposite? Absolutely not. When Vancouver — aside from a small change between the rid- we see that the government is continuing to invest a re- ings of the member for Vancouver–False Creek and the cord $180 million plus in B.C. Ferries, do we hear any- member for Vancouver–West End — the boundaries have thing positive from the members opposite? Absolutely remained the same in this process. not. When we see that passenger volumes are up about What that has meant — and we should understand 5 percent here today, across the system, are they positive what that means — is that in Vancouver-Kingsway, about that? No. which is one of British Columbia’s most diverse ridings, With respect to the Denman Island ferry, the tests are I’d argue…. In fact, the evidence shows that pretty clear- going well. The ferry is performing well. We’re confident ly. A majority of our residents were not born in British that this ferry is going to serve the people of the island Columbia or in Canada. We speak a diverse array of lan- very, very well. It’s going to be as safe as the previous ves- guages. In fact, it is, I think, a remarkable community sel, and it’s going to save millions of dollars in the process. that is in some respects, the way it acts within itself, an Good news, members opposite. Good news. example to the world. Our constituency also has the second-highest popu- [End of question period.] lation of any constituency in the province. In other words, the 62,459 people in the constituency is great- Orders of the Day er than 83 other constituencies. In fact, within the city of Vancouver, we have two of those constituencies. The Hon. M. de Jong: Madame Speaker, the ongoing de- Attorney General, or the Minister of Justice, spoke yester- bate on Motion 26. day, I believe. That constituency, Vancouver-Fraserview, [1100] also in the southeast corner of Vancouver, had the highest. Both constituencies, I would note, are facing very sig- [R. Chouhan in the chair.] nificant increases in density within the constituencies. In other words, they’re not only the two largest constituen- Government Motions on Notice cies now but two of the fastest-growing constituencies in British Columbia. If this electoral boundaries process MOTION 26 — ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES — which, should we maintain the current electoral sys- COMMISSION REPORT PROPOSALS tem, would be the boundaries in place for the 2017 and (continued) ’21 election…. By the 2021 election, the situation, where Vancouver-Kingsway is dramatically greater, 18 percent A. Dix: I rise to speak to Motion 26, which is, for ef- greater than the provincial average with respect to con- fect, to accept the report and the proposals contained in stituencies, is likely to be significantly higher. the final report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission. [1105] As members will know and people who participat- Now, two of the key questions…. If we look back at ed in that debate will know, the commission was led…. Electoral Boundaries Commission processes in the past It was a three-person commission under the Electoral in British Columbia, what we will see is a dramatic differ- Boundaries Commission Act in British Columbia led ence between how it’s done now and how it’s been done, by Mr. Justice Melnick, Beverley Busson, who is a for- really, in previous times. mer superintendent of the RCMP, and Keith Archer, the In fact, there has been a systematic process of political province’s Chief Electoral Officer. intervention in these processes in British Columbia over The independent commission process — which I’ll our history, a history that is in some respects, with re- return to because it is, at least in British Columbia’s his- spect to electoral boundaries — even though the subject tory, something of a modern invention in terms of its seems somewhat dry to some — also the subject of novels. independence and role — participates and travels the We think of rotten boroughs in the United Kingdom, province. It did in two phases in this process — the first where, essentially, individuals represented one or five or phase with 29 communities, 128 presenters and 295 writ- very few people for historical reasons. They were there ten submissions and then a subsequent phase, after the and existed to protect privilege. From novels such as original report was put out, with 144 presenters, 15 com- Vanity Fair and Our Mutual Friend from Dickens, and munity hearings and 426 written submissions. others, this became the subject of literary discussion in Like other members of the House have noted, I’d like the United Kingdom right up to the Reform Act of 1832, to thank the commission for its work, which is extra- when such rotten boroughs were fundamentally changed. ordinarily important. In the United States, we’ve seen similar circumstances, With respect to the constituency I represent, Vancouver- and in British Columbia we’ve seen circumstances right Kingsway, the commission has recommended that, essen- up to the modern era — and we’ll get to the Eckardt re- tially, nothing change. Actually, nothing changed. They port in a moment — where the government’s predeces- Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9789

sor government, under Mr. Bennett, tried to change, in look at the United States, you’ll see a jurisdiction with the most elaborate and remarkable way, the boundary of 50 states but only seven independent commissions. In one district to save one government MLA. other words, on the issue of independent commissions, One example of how this work was done in the past…. the difference is stark and dramatic, and it shows the im- Many people on the eastside of Vancouver know John portance, I would argue, of independent commissions in Oliver high school. They will know that John Oliver was the process. a famous Premier of British Columbia. This describes the You see in the United States, even though there is process that he did, which is in some ways only different equality within districts, the importance of winning elec- from the current process in that he was a politician and tions just in front of redistricting at the state level which had considerable interest, as did his caucus, in the result. set out who gets to be represented, the nature of seats I’m quoting from his biography by James Morton. and some of the oddest carving of boundaries you’ve ever “Oliver set to work with voters lists, maps and brushes and seen — sort of a Gracie’s finger by policy, as opposed to paint. The latter were John’s own selected tools. He took a big a serious process of fair distribution, which understands map of the province, divested himself of coat and waistcoat and went at it. He spread maps on the floor and remolded them to that there’s more than one party and that the purpose of his heart’s desire. democracy is not simply the re-election of incumbents. “With one colour, he marked the boundaries of the districts On that question, Canada clearly has an advantage, and that should stand as they were. With another, he depicted those we have an advantage in British Columbia, notwithstand- that should be enlarged and with another, those that should be ing the consistent and continuing intervention by Social reduced according to fluctuations in the number of votes, as carefully worked out from the lists. By the time he got through Credit, Liberal, Conservative governments over the years his map, his map looked like a jagged Joseph’s coat, but it suited to intervene in those processes for their own interests. his purpose, and he was proud of his handicraft.” In spite of that, the existence of independent commis- I presume what we’re talking about there would be sions is important, and that’s why, in this House, this re- described by the present Premier as a transitory docu- port produced by an independent commission has such ment. But nonetheless, it showed what was happening in support. Even though the details of it — and I heard the that time and the political nature of redistribution, real- words of the member for Chilliwack-Hope, for example ly, right up to the NDP government of the 1970s, when — are not necessarily unanimous, the process is broadly things began to change for the better. accepted in this House. Two of the vital questions that are faced by electoral That’s the first set of things — independent commis- boundaries commissions and by countries that are trying sions. The second critical question, it seems to me, is the to deal with this issue of electoral boundaries — especial- question of representation by population. In the United ly countries of the size of Canada, where constituen- States, after the decisions of the 1960s and of the Warren cies can represent massive areas, where a community court in the 1960s, a very famous Chief Justice of the of interest can include dozens and dozens of individ- American Supreme Court — the justice who led the ual communities and where a community of interests is court through the Brown v. Board of Education decision, sometimes hard to find…. many of the desegregation decisions in the United States Two really important questions are reflected in this — famously, at the time…. report. One is the need for an independent commission He’s what doesn’t exist anymore in the United States. He to resolve these questions without government tinkering. was the governor of California and a liberal Republican. Really, such a commission has only occurred, without He argued in speeches and in decisions made by the tinkering and political intervention, once in our history courts about both legislative, at state level, boundaries — the commission in 1999 headed by Justice Josiah Wood. and congressional boundaries, that “legislators represent Other than that, there has been systematic small or larger people, not trees or acres. Legislators are elected by vot- intervention by government in the independent commis- ers, not farms or cities or economic interests.” He argued, sions that have been set up. So the role of the independ- and the American court system argued, that essentially, ent commission is a central question. every district should be the same in terms of population. Secondly, what constitutes representation by popula- In fact, of course, should that be the case? This district tion? In other words, when you have a report such as this map — had that been the case by courts in Canada, our one…. It says that the voters in my constituency are sig- map today that we would be dealing with would be dra- nificantly over, at 62,459, when in other constituencies, matically different. In fact, the majority of ridings in this it’s 20,000. So the voice of each individual elector in that report are over a plus-10 or minus-10 percent variation. circumstance is worth three times more. Is that accept- And in the United States, probably a 1 percent variation able under a democracy, or does it violate the notion of would not be not be allowed. So you’re seeing a dramatic representation by population? thing. They have decided that every vote should weigh [1110] the same, regardless of whether you live in Boise or New Interestingly, the United States and Canada have taken York or whether you live in rural South Carolina or urban two different routes on both of these questions. If you California. 9790 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

That’s the American approach. We were faced, and our At the same time as we accept that, we also get to at- courts and our system were faced, with a similar chal- tack residents — for example, the residents of my com- lenge when the Charter of Rights and Freedoms came munity, as the member for Prince George–Mackenzie did. into effect. Our justices took a different approach — one He suggested that people in urban areas, “when they get that I think around which there is a consensus that that up in the morning in their cozy apartment in downtown notion of equal voting is fundamental to representation Vancouver or Victoria or Surrey or Burnaby or some of by population. But there are other factors that need to these other major urban centres, turn their thermostat up be considered. on the wall, and the heat comes on in their gas-fired fire- The great Madam Justice McLachlin said this in a court place or in their furnace. Their apartment gets nice and decision — in the famous what’s called the Saskatchewan warm” — which, by the way, it does in Kamloops and in reference, which essentially set the standard for this dis- Prince George as well. cussion. She said: “What are the conditions of effective “Then they turn on the lights so they can go into the representation? The first is relative parity of voting power. washroom and shave and shower and get ready for the A system which dilutes one citizen’s vote unduly as com- day before they jump in their car and drive across one of pared with another citizen’s vote runs the risk of providing the many steel-concrete bridges that we have in the prov- inadequate representation to the citizen whose vote is di- ince to get to their workplace.” luted. The result will be uneven and unfair representation.” The minimization and the description of life are fan- She also said, given the size of Canada and its makeup, ciful and disrespectful, I’d argue. The member for Prince that “factors like geography, community history, com- George–Mackenzie goes on to talk about immigrants — munity interests and minority representation may need who represent a majority of my constituency. He says, to be taken into account to ensure that our legislative quoting a report, that “immigrants comprised 26.1 per- assemblies effectively represent the diversity of our so- cent of the provincial population in 2001, and their share cial mosaic.” increased to 27.3 percent in 2011. We need immigrants [1115] in this province to look after the work, to contribute to Coming out of the court case came the established the economy….” Well, we also need Canadian citizens to idea that while as little variation as possible was desir- participate in our democracy, and people should be al- able, there could be a 25 percent variation in the com- lowed to, without having their views diminished. position of electoral districts to reflect this change. Since I haven’t ever heard any new immigrant or new this came into effect, sometimes, for a whole variety of Canadian citizen ever suggest or attack anyone from any reasons, people have tried to push the boundaries even other region. I have not, in my time as an MLA, heard of this. One can imagine what would happen if the court them suggest anything about life anywhere else in the had ruled that our Charter of Rights had similar applica- province. They are entirely respectful, as they should be, tion to the American charter of rights. They didn’t. as all citizens should be. Let’s respect one another. What this meant was that in constituencies such as As a representative for Vancouver-Kingsway, I sup- Vancouver-Kingsway, the individual voting power of the port the ruling of the court, which suggests that people people who live in Vancouver-Kingsway is very signifi- in Vancouver-Kingsway might get less representation cantly less than it is in other areas. Interestingly, I believe than they would deserve under a stricter representa- that people in Vancouver-Kingsway are remarkably ac- tion-by-population model. People in the constituency of cepting of this fact. Contrary to, sometimes, the insults Vancouver-Kingsway respect that. that are thrown around, including in this House, about Yet we have them, nonetheless, being criticized and at- how people view the situation, this map, where that oc- tacked as if they don’t have a voice in the democracy, as curs, would be broadly supported in Vancouver-Kingsway. if their role shouldn’t count in the democracy. It is extra- This has been a long, concerted…. We recall that the ordinary. It is an extraordinary view that we respond to Angus commission, which was the first independent concerns and that people want to divide anyway, when commission in British Columbia, talked about the con- what’s happening in fact is that those concerns are be- cerns about urban vote and described: “The extraordin- ing respected. ary belief seemed to exist that the people of the Lower In particular, we have a map which, by representation Mainland were economic parasites, producing little by population, over-represents certain areas, for very wealth themselves and intent on exploiting the people good reasons — reasons of geography and community who live in ‘underdeveloped’ areas.” Indeed, this view, I of interest. But you can’t have that. You can’t have people think, is just profoundly unfair. in the community responding positively and respecting This is not to make the argument — which I think is an other people and then getting attacked for it from the absolutely legitimate argument — that we have to have government benches. That is entirely disrespectful. districts and representation that are possible. That means [1120] ensuring an overrepresentation in rural areas, consistent When we know for a fact that power has gone away with the courts. That’s been accepted. from communities and towards both international cor- Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9791

porations and powerful interests that are largely located important in that, which is this notion of effective rep- in cities, I don’t know why members on the government resentation. side want to attack immigrants and suggest that they That’s the challenge, therefore, that we face when we don’t respect it. It’s not people who have just immigrated look at these reports and why we on the opposition, in to Canada who don’t respect it; it’s everyone else. spite of our concern about the government’s intervention The issues of globalization are important and a struggle. previously in this process…. There was intervention, as Those are ones that affect people in every part of British we know, in 2008. There was intervention in 1989. There Columbia and ones we have to get together and collect- was intervention in 1982. There was intervention in 1978. ively make decisions about. There was intervention in 1966. A systematic effort on the When you look at the constituency that we have in part, in all those cases…. Vancouver-Kingsway, what we have and how we’ve Then prior to 1966, it was kind of the Wild West where evolved through this process, it seems to me we need Liberals, Conservatives and Social Credit governments to reflect on a couple of things. One is that it is an extra- manipulated the map for very partisan reasons. This ordinary thing when you have a constituency centred, isn’t a partisan statement; it’s a subject of historical fact. often, around its community centres and neighbourhood We need a fair process, and that is what I think every- houses, such as Trout Lake and Renfrew and Collingwood body is seeking. Even though sometimes when you Neighbourhood House, created not because of direct come through those processes…. It should be said that funding but because people in the community got togeth- after the 2008 process, Vancouver-Kingsway wasn’t the er to have a place where they could join and achieve cer- second-biggest seat in the province. It was probably 13 tain things that the community needed to achieve. or 14. This time it’s second. In the most diverse community in the province, where Why, if the process is fair and people were listened to they often speak different languages as first languages, and it was determined in this circumstance that deviation people have come together to respect one another and from the norm was acceptable…. People in Vancouver- to create a neighbourhood house that does this. This is Kingsway, even though this time it was laid out this way an extraordinary thing. It runs contrary to these ideas of for them, are more than willing and should be more than division — communities coming together and respecting willing to accept it, as we are and as I am, by voting for one another, respecting difference. I think that’s some- the report of this commission. thing that people in Vancouver-Kingsway exemplify. [1125] I don’t think there are many places in the world as I think I would say, in conclusion, that the report and diverse as Vancouver-Kingsway and as the eastside of these processes have consequences. Our democracy is Vancouver and the southeast side of Vancouver, repre- important. What I find heartening in this process, what sented by my colleague the Minister of Justice and my- I find heartening when people go and vote as they did self — not many places in the world where such diversity in great numbers in Vancouver-Kingsway last week, is works so well on the ground in a daily way, where people that these are fundamental questions. They’re not small come together in that sense. questions. That’s why this map and this large constituency, which In those periods, in the early days, when electoral is a result of this map in terms of population, is something districts were founded on mining districts in British they understand. People understand differences and Columbia, it was also true that women couldn’t vote, the need to engage in give and take and to be generous that Chinese Canadians couldn’t vote, that South Asian with one another, understand that it is crucial in British Canadians couldn’t vote, that we had a system of power Columbia that voices from every part of the province are over our democracy that not only saw the gerryman- heard and that in some places we need constituencies that dering of electoral districts but the denial of full citizen- work. They understand that because they live that. ship to a majority of citizens in our province. They would have no objection to what’s been said by It is why we have to be, I think, vigilant in asserting members on both sides of the House about the central- the central and important democratic voice of elections ity of rural representation in a province of this size and and that those elections need to be conducted in a fair, the need to address that. They would have no objection just and democratic manner. to that. That is what I think this process, overall, has done. It What they would say and what we need to continue to has respected the uniqueness of Canada and of Canadian say is that it has to be done fairly, that we have to have in- democracy. It has respected constituents from through- dependent commissions, that we shouldn’t be directing out our province. It has allowed a vast majority of voices those commissions. We should be allowing the com- to participate in the discussion. Ultimately, we have missions to respect the law and the tradition of British a map which will lead and give the people of British Columbia and of Canada, which respects representation Columbia an opportunity to express their views on their and ensures that we have electoral districts that can work individual MLAs and on their government at the time of for everybody and that we have what is, I think, centrally the 2017 election. 9792 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

I think all of those things are worthy of support. It’s why sider the urban areas as well. That B.C. is an attractive members on the opposition side have been supportive and place to live and work is evident by our growing popu- speaking in support of this report, notwithstanding indi- lation. Thus, we are increasing the number of electoral vidual concerns that people might have about its details. districts by two, from 85 to 87. The new ridings will be With that, I take my seat. I think we will see, as the de- located in Surrey and Richmond–New Westminster. bate carries on, other members talking about the unique- Along with the two new ridings, there will be boundary ness of their communities, of their constituencies, on changes to 48 districts across the province. Substantial both the government and the opposition side. These are changes are recommended in the Fraser Valley, Hope- very personal issues. Princeton, Comox Valley and mid–Vancouver Island I do remember, when boundaries reports came out in regions. I represent the riding of Abbotsford-Mission, as the past, talking to the MLAs losing city blocks, who were mentioned, in the beautiful Fraser Valley. These adjust- extremely upset about that process. There are weaknesses ments, I think, will be appreciated by residents. The pro- and flaws in this system, but one of the strengths of this posal set to be adopted will be in place for the scheduled system is the connection that representatives, I hope, feel 2017 and 2021 general provincial elections. between themselves and the citizens they represent of all Politics was never a consideration for government political stripes. Certainly, I feel it. when preparing this legislation to accept all the propos- As we go through the next electoral cycle, hopefully, als from the commission. The bottom line is that we need we’ll have a map and the electoral boundaries, and I be- fair and effective representation for all our citizens. Every lieve we do, which will be fair to all — to voters and to province grapples with how best to manage the urban- our broader society, which deserves and which has em- rural divide, given population density and disparity. braced representative democracy. Most provinces, especially larger ones, have rules for exceptional circumstances. In B.C., we have rural dis- S. Gibson: On behalf of my constituents of Abbotsford- tricts that are below the 25 percent population deviation Mission, I’m pleased to rise today and speak in favour of rule. However, this is not a new situation, as following the motion. We’ve been discussing in the House the chan- the last commission eight years ago, there were also ten ges to the electoral boundaries of our province. districts that were outside the threshold. As well, there Representing Abbotsford-Mission, generally regarded are no proposed districts that come close to the plus-25- as one of British Columbia’s finest constituencies, I’m percent threshold. This indicates that the commission did pleased with the relatively minor configurations that have a good job of balancing population and also taking com- taken place, which really makes my riding a lot easier to munity interests into account. describe to people outside and within the community. I It is generally easier for an MLA to represent and think it will be helpful to voters, who will be looking to serve constituents in urban and suburban districts, even consider, in the election coming up…. though, on average, they have more people to represent The members of the Electoral Boundaries Commission than the rural areas. This is because population is con- were appointed in May of 2014 and were tasked with centrated in a much smaller geographic area. recommending provincial electoral boundaries before I want to thank the members of the commission for the next election in 2017. During the last boundaries their diligence and thorough job in evaluating how best commission process, it became clear that three regions to configure B.C. electoral districts. In a democracy, it’s in B.C. were most at risk of losing representation in the important for constituents to realize that they have easy Legislature. Of course, they’re the large, sparsely popu- and convenient access to their representative. It’s my be- lated regions in the more remote part of our province. lief these recommendations allow that to take place, and Because ours is a province with dense and growing I’m pleased to report that today. It’s a difficult job to man- urban areas, with rural regions, we must ensure that all age geographic disparities in our province to ensure that British Columbians are represented appropriately. We all citizens are effectively represented. But thanks to the have introduced legislation to adopt all of the commis- hard work of the commission, they have found that bal- sion’s recommendations. This will ensure that all British ance and were successful. Columbians are effectively represented in both urban and rural areas. A. Weaver: It gives me great pleasure to rise and [1130] speak to the motion before us, the motion which is: “Be We wanted to make sure that the current districts in it resolved that in accordance with section 14 of the the north, Cariboo-Thompson and Columbia-Kootenay, Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, R.S.B.C. 1996, are preserved. This ensures that citizens in these less c. 107, the proposals contained in the Final Report of densely populated yet geographically large districts can the Electoral Boundaries Commission tabled in the be effectively represented by their MLAs. Legislative Assembly on September 28, 2015 be approved.” While we work to ensure that the rural areas of our Now, to remind those riveted to their television sets province are effectively represented, we also need to con- across British Columbia, section 14 of the Electoral Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9793

Boundaries Commission Act states the following: “If that, frankly, confused the voters, because this little cor- the Legislative Assembly, by resolution, approves or ap- ner in Oak Bay–Gordon Head was shared by the member proves with alterations the proposals of the commission, for Victoria–Swan Lake, the member for Victoria–Beacon the government must, at the same session, introduce Hill and my riding. In fact, it was not uncommon for con- a Bill to establish new electoral districts in accordance stituents in Oak Bay–Gordon Head to get electoral infor- with the resolution.” mation from constituents in Victoria–Beacon Hill and I rise, along with every other member in this House, vice versa, because it was this little odd corner in the rid- to speak in support of the resolution before us and, spe- ing that has been corrected in this. cifically, to thank, at the onset, the work done by the Oak Bay–Gordon Head is very proud to bring the Electoral Boundaries Commission and, in particular, Royal Jubilee Hospital back into our riding. It’s a natural Hon. Mr. Justice Thomas J. Melnick, the commission home for the riding because so many constituents live chair; Beverley Busson, the commissioner; and Keith nearby it and work nearby it. We get to continue down Archer, Chief Electoral Officer and commissioner. Richmond Road. We now bring the Victoria College of [1135] Art — another natural home for Oak Bay–Gordon Head, Now, this report was done, obviously, in a non-partisan the Victoria College of Art — and another high school, manner. It is one that reflected the values of British making us, in Oak Bay–Gordon Head, I would reckon, Columbians in terms of trying best to put their needs probably the most high-school-rich, university-rich, col- and interests first and foremost in the setting of electoral lege-rich riding in the province. boundary limits. With the inclusion now of the senior school of I represent the riding of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, a rid- Glenlyon Norfolk…. We now have, in Oak Bay–Gordon ing that, under these proposed changes, would expand Head, three public high schools — the brand-new Oak ever so slightly to an area of 330 square kilometres with Bay; Lambrick Park, the school my daughter graduated a 4.8 percent deviation above the provincial average in from; and Mount Doug — St. Michaels University School terms of population, and the population would be 55,689. and now Glenlyon as well — five high schools. Oak Bay–Gordon Head is 330 square kilometres be- On top of that, we also have Camosun College, which cause it contains quite a number of islands off the shore, is right on the boundary there of Richmond Road, and and I must confess to being remiss to visiting these the . And we have a diversity of islands frequently. Trial Island, the Chatham Islands, other colleges, including the Victoria College of Art and Discovery Island, Griffin Island, Great Chain Island…. the Canadian College of the Performing Arts. We have There’s a number of these islands which are within the a number of elementary schools, some of them private, electoral boundary, and they carry over from before. some of them not. Very sparsely populated. Trial Island has a lighthouse [1140] keeper. Chatham Islands — a First Nations reserve — the We have Maria Montessori, an additional high school last longtime resident recently moved off that. Discovery that actually, this year, is graduating its first grade 12 class. Island is largely a marine park. Nevertheless, I do repre- It used to just be K to 7, but now it is…. So that would sent these ridings as well as the entire district of Oak Bay make us three private schools, three public schools, a col- contained within the boundary and a substantial com- lege and a university, and we’re very proud to bring the ponent of Saanich. hospital into our riding as well. Now, in the capital region, the proposed changes for The changes as outlined in the report here…. As noted my riding are subtle. They’re subtle, and they come at here, the proposed changes were only really in the cap- the expense, with respect, of my colleague in Victoria– ital region, to the boundary of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, Beacon Hill. The Electoral Boundaries Commission, in where we get a few blocks along Richmond. And part of reflecting upon the boundary changes, really had one of Vic West is brought back into its traditional home of the two changes that it could make consistently in order to Victoria–Beacon Hill riding. Pretty much everything else actually bring our population number up, which I recog- stayed the same. nize has gone down a little bit. Again, coming along that Richmond Road, that very One was near Mount Doug, where, along Cedar Hill important corner which was brought into the jurisdic- Road, there’s a small subdivision towards the north side tion of Oak Bay–Gordon Head…. It’s actually quite a that could have been brought in. Historically, this was fascinating area of the riding, in that there are a num- part of the riding when the hon. was the MLA ber of homes along Foul Bay — which is just south of representing the region, but in previous reports it got taken Richmond, which is where the boundary used to be — out. The other, which, frankly, I think, is more supported, where part of the home is in the municipality of Oak Bay is to continue the natural divide between Victoria–Beacon and the other part of the home is in the city of Victoria. Hill and Oak Bay–Gordon Head along Richmond Road. It’s a bizarre situation where there are people along The reason why I say it’s a natural divide is because Foul Bay Road who actually have to pay two sets of prop- there was this very odd little corner by Jubilee Hospital erty taxes — property taxes to the municipality of Oak 9794 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

Bay and property taxes to the city of Victoria — because know why this government is not standing up and apolo- part of their garden straddles the boundary. Very odd. gizing to British Columbians for misleading them — yes, And bringing them now all into my jurisdiction…. Well, hon. Speaker, misleading them — in the lead up to the they were initially, but this is something that, also, I think last election with promises of an LNG industry that was we should be thinking about fixing in the months ahead nothing but a pipedream. — not through the electoral process but through the mu- [1145] nicipal boundary process. That is what the constituents wanted to talk about, not Now, we’ve debated in this Legislature a number of this electoral boundary issue. things this session. We’ve debated, as we’ve moved to this, the Red Tape Reduction Day Act. We’ve debated what Hon. T. Lake: Speak to the motion. I’ve called the spell-check and comma-replacement act. We’ve had discussions as to whether or not we should A. Weaver: There were many other things that they introduce legislation to bring back two spaces after a raised, which I could discuss here. I recognize that the period. We’ve had other pieces of debate on a motion for Minister of Health is trying to keep me on the motion. Site C dam, which would have been useful ten months But this is relevant to the motion, because the boundaries ago. Now we’re debating — this will be the third day — that we are discussing — the boundaries here today, in for perhaps four days, the resolution with respect to ac- this riding — are changing. cepting the electoral commission’s act. We will spend four days — we’ve spent three so far — I wholeheartedly support this. The opposition whole- discussing this. And each and every one of us has agreed heartedly supports this. But surely, in this Legislature, to this. there are other things we could be spending our time We haven’t discussed the failed attempts of this gov- debating that are important in determining the values ernment to deliver on its promises. We’ve discussed this of the actual constituents who we are here to represent. resolution here. We haven’t discussed the desperate at- tempt of the government to try to rebrand itself now Interjection. as the party of small business. No, we’re discussing the boundaries here of the electoral ridings around the prov- A. Weaver: The member for Peace River South points ince of British Columbia. We haven’t discussed the issue out that there is an element of irony, maybe hypocrisy, of education and underfunding of education. No. and I recognize that. I recognize, as I talk about the We’ve discussed shifting Foul Bay to Richmond, an im- things that we’re not talking about…. portant change for those people between Foul Bay and Richmond who are now joining Oak Bay–Gordon Head. Interjection. I recognize that they will be happy. Well, maybe they’re not. Some will be happy; some will be not. A. Weaver: The member for Vancouver-Kingsway points out I’m being hard on myself. I would suggest I [Madame Speaker in the chair.] am walking down a dangerous territory of not practising what I’m preaching. But the dangerous territory here, I But what they would be far more happy about is actual- think, needs to be said, because we’re talking about the ly discussing, talking about, the LNG industry that did electoral process, the foundation of our democracy. We’re not manage to get established here in British Columbia. talking about jigging boundaries. We all support this. But what we’re not talking about are the issues that Madame Speaker: Member, I’m going to ask you to matter to the people in our electoral boundaries. I did not align your remarks to the motion under debate. get a single e-mail from any constituent at any time over any aspect of this report. My constituents did not care. A. Weaver: Thank you, hon. Speaker. Now, I recognize it’s a much more important issue for Coming back to the motion before us. Reminding other jurisdictions, perhaps rural areas where there are those, again, riveted at home that the motion before us rather large changes in the area. But my constituents said is, “Be it resolved that in accordance with section 14 of nothing. I didn’t get a phone call. I didn’t get an e-mail. I the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act” we approve didn’t get a “hey, stop” in the grocery store. “What do you this report. think about the electoral boundary? It’s really important As I’ve outlined, the constituents of my riding never to us to discuss that shift from Foul Bay to Richmond. raised this as an issue at all. So I assume…. Like other This is an issue that keeps us awake at night.” members here, if there is an issue, typically you hear a lot No, what they wanted to talk about is why this govern- about it — the issues that I raised earlier. This one I did not, ment promised 100,000 jobs, a $100 billion prosperity which would suggest to me, quite clearly, that this is not fund, a $1 trillion hit to the GDP. They wanted to know a pressing issue in the riding of Oak Bay–Gordon Head. where this so-called Petronas deal…. They wanted to Again, I thank the commissioners very much for their Tuesday, October 27, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9795

report. I appreciate that. I do wonder whether it’s — not- I’m happy to speak to this motion and make sure ing the hour here…. that we send our thanks to the Electoral Boundaries Commission for taking into consideration the many rep- Interjections. resentations that were made, particularly by my constitu- ents in Kamloops–North Thompson. A. Weaver: Well, I’m happy to not note the hour. I’m happy to take my place and let somebody on the opposite C. James: I believe the minister heard a completely dif- side continue this debate on a topic that is so very dear ferent speech than the rest of us heard in the legislative to the hearts of not a single one of my constituents. But chamber. Those are certainly not the comments that I other issues which we are not discussing are. understood and that I heard listening to the same speech I look forward to the opportunity to discuss issues of that was given by the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head. relevance to British Columbians, on a daily basis, that But I think it points to some of the sensitivity — the affect their economy, their health and their education. member for Vancouver-Kingsway spoke to it as well — around the rural-urban split. I’ll speak to that a little Hon. T. Lake: I choose to rise to speak in support of bit more as I go through my remarks on the Electoral this motion and considering the comments made by the Boundaries Commission report proposals, Motion 26. member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head, thought he might I think it’s interesting to take a look at the fact that this be interested to know that, in fact, in many areas of the will be a motion, members’ comments aside, that I ex- province, constituents are really concerned about who pect we will see full support in this House for, which, as is representing them and how they’re representing them we know, is not necessarily a common occurrence in this and their interests here in this Legislature in British Legislature. It certainly hasn’t always been that way in the Columbia. history of boundary commissions. We certainly haven’t The commission did some very good work. I know in seen that come forward and be discussed and debated in my constituency, delegations, particularly from the North the kind of unanimity that I expect we’re going to see as Thompson — the Clearwater area, Vavenby and Barriere we continue debate on this bill. — made their views known to the commission that it was I know other members have taken some time. I want important to have the linkages with the regional centre to, as well, take a bit of my time to look at the history of of Kamloops in their representation in the Legislature. how we’ve set commissions and how we’ve set bound- I did receive e-mails. Unlike the member for Oak aries and electoral areas in our province. The reason that I Bay–Gordon Head, who dismisses the way constituents think it’s important to do that is that when we look at the are represented in the Legislature in an effort to make broad support that we’re now seeing for the Boundaries some partisan political comments — using the time to Commission, that didn’t just happen by itself. talk about democracy to make comments about politic- Broad support doesn’t just occur. It usually occurs be- al motivations. It was important for my constituents to cause there have been challenges in previous times and ensure that they were connected to the regional centre those challenges have brought about changes that have of Kamloops and continue to have the same MLA as the made it more positive, changes that have meant that we people of North Kamloops and, in fact, made represen- could get to a place — as we are through this discussion tation to the electoral commission, something that is ex- — where most members are rising and agreeing with the tremely important to them. direction and with the commission and with the report [1150] that’s here. The member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head discounts I think it’s important that we look at the history in their concern about being represented in this chamber. I order to look at the components that we now use to set take exception, personally, because my constituents were boundaries and to look at why they’re important. To do very concerned about how they are represented in this that, I took a little bit of time to go back and take a look House. It is the cornerstone, the foundation, of demo- at papers that have been written around electoral bound- cracy to ensure that you are adequately represented in aries. I think it will be a name that’s familiar to anyone, the Legislature. certainly in this chamber, and probably to most people Despite what the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head who follow politics in B.C. says, people actually do care about this. I’ve heard many There was a very good paper written by Norman Ruff. members in this Legislature discuss how important our As I said, I think most people would recognize that name foundation of democracy is — the flexibility that we have through his work at the university, his work here at the to ensure that we balance representation by population Legislature, his commentary — good and bad, people will along with the enormous challenge of connecting people say, depending on which side you were on when Norman in a very large and diverse province with topographical Ruff was commenting, but always thoughtful, whether challenges, geographical challenges and transportation you agreed or disagreed with it. I certainly found that in challenges. his paper as well. 9796 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, October 27, 2015

His paper is called “The Cat and Mouse Politics of challenges. Certainly, if you take a look at the urban set- Redistribution: Fair and Effective Representation in tings, that’s a different issue, and I’ll come back to that. British Columbia”. Certainly, for those members who are But if you look at the geographical challenges of moun- interested in taking a look at history and taking a look tains and rivers and divides, that certainly causes some at boundaries, it’s worth picking it up. It really points real challenges when you’re taking a look at setting elec- out the challenges, as I said earlier, of setting electoral toral boundaries. It certainly causes some difficulties in boundaries, not the least of which is the issue of politics, trying to set those and match that with the distribution the issue of interference, the issue of the lack of — or a of population — again, not unique to British Columbia. perception of the lack of — independence and fairness You are seeing it in a number of other provinces. It has to through this process. do with urban and rural, has to do with where people are I think it would be no surprise to anybody in a place settling, has to do with the distribution of that population. that is full of politics, and full of often-partisan politics, Matching that with the geographical challenges certainly that there would be a concern as boundaries are set. causes a great deal of difficulties that we see coming up. Now, I notice we’re getting close on time. I see a nod- Interjection. [1155] ding of the head. With that, noting the hour, I will take my place and reserve my right to come back after the C. James: Say it isn’t so, the member across says. I break. know it’s shocking to some of those members who have joined us that this is a place where we actually become C. James moved adjournment of debate. partisan once in a while. But I think it would be no sur- prise that, in setting the boundaries for elections, there Motion approved. would be the opportunity for politics to raise its head, for politics to interfere with this process. And I think that’s, Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House. certainly, if you look at the history — and I’ll talk a lit- tle bit more about it as well — that’s certainly a theme Motion approved. that has run through where we have not had the kind of unanimity we’re talking about, but we’ve seen the kinds Madame Speaker: This House, at its rising, stands ad- of challenges that we’ve seen previously. journed until 1:30 this afternoon. The other thing that’s always interesting to take a look at in British Columbia is the issue of our geographic The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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