Second Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Monday, May 12, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 12, Number 7

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Second Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon. Todd Stone

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West ...... Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver- ...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Island ...... Claire Trevena Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen ...... Pat Pimm Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River South ...... Mike Bernier Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Penticton...... Dan Ashton Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Skeena ...... Robin Austin Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver– ...... Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2

CONTENTS

Monday, May 12, 2014 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members ...... 3775

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 3775 Nursing Week and contributions of nurses J. Tegart J. Darcy Britannia Shipyard National Historic Site J. Yap Marine conservation area for southern Gulf Islands G. Holman Cleveland Elementary School lands R. Sultan Mining Week S. Fraser

Oral Questions ...... 3777 Site C power project review panel report and energy alternatives J. Horgan Hon. B. Bennett Site C power project review and role of B.C. Utilities Commission J. Horgan Hon. B. Bennett S. Simpson First Nations consultation on Site C power project D. Donaldson Hon. B. Bennett Government action on domestic violence M. Karagianis Hon. S. Cadieux Access to legal aid by victims of domestic violence L. Krog Hon. S. Anton Implementation of Missing Women Inquiry recommendations and bus service on Highway 16 J. Rice Hon. S. Anton

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 3782 Bill 24 — Agricultural Land Commission Amendment Act, 2014 (continued) M. Elmore S. Robinson V. Huntington S. Simpson K. Conroy S. Fraser C. James S. Hammell M. Karagianis Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 3815 Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training (continued) D. Routley Hon. S. Bond G. Heyman L. Popham Hon. N. Yamamoto A. Weaver B. Ralston 3775

MONDAY, MAY 12, 2014 landmark Spotlight on Science Learning report. Th e re- port reminds us of the critical importance of science and Th e House met at 1:34 p.m. learning to Canada's future economy. Would the House please make welcome Dr. Bonnie [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Schmidt and Cailin Clarke from Let's Talk Science and Amgen's Jim Favaro. Routine Business Hon. S. Bond: I'm delighted to have two guests in the Introductions by Members gallery today, Cassidy Shuvera and her boyfriend, David Anderson. Th ey are aspiring political science students J. Yap: I have fi ve guests in the gallery today. Th ey're attending the fantastic University of Northern British here for their fi rst visit. Th ese are members of the Global Columbia. Th ey are here to observe question period and Federation of Chinese Business Women Association of to see our cordial behaviour during that democratic ex- B.C. Shirley Chung, Tiff any Wang, Henry Jong, Julie ercise. We hope it encourages them to get involved in fur- Chang and Susan Wu are here. Would the House please ther political engagements. Please join me in welcoming give them a warm welcome. them and wishing them the best in their future studies. [1335] Hon. P. Fassbender: I rise to introduce a group of J. Darcy: It gives me great pleasure to welcome this en- students from my constituency of Surrey-Fleetwood tire gallery of nurses who are here today. Th ey are here and their teacher, Ms. Tessa Hansen, from Cornerstone representing various professions within nursing: licensed Montessori School. I'd ask the House to please join me practical nurses, registered nurses, registered psychiatric in welcoming them. nurses and nurse practitioners. Th ey come from various parts of British Columbia. M. Dalton: I have special guests in the gallery today: I know they met with the minister as well today. I had the love of my life, my wife, Marlene, and my darling a wonderful meeting with them. Th ey do so much on the daughter Hannah. Hannah came down for Mother's Day front lines of health care every day, and their voices at the from Tofi no, where she's working and learning how to table are so welcome. surf. She is here taking some time off SFU, and she's here Will the House please join me in welcoming this won- with her friend Bella, who is her roommate and works up derful gallery of nurses today. there also. Bella means beautiful, and she's that too. We're glad they could all come here. Would the House please Hon. T. Lake: As the member for New Westminster make them feel welcome. mentioned, we were privileged to meet with nurses from across British Columbia today in recognition of National Statements Nursing Week. (Standing Order 25B) We have 22 nursing representatives from across the province, including the following individuals, with NURSING WEEK AND whom I met earlier today: Julie Fraser, president of the CONTRIBUTIONS OF NURSES Association of Registered Nurses of B.C.; Stan Marchuk, president of the British Columbia Nurse Practitioner J. Tegart: I rise in the House today during National Association; Teresa McFadyen, president of the Licensed Nursing Week to recognize the vital role of nurses to Practical Nurses Association of B.C.; and David Axon, health care throughout British Columbia. I'd like to ac- director of the board of the College of Registered knowledge the over 20 nursing representatives in the gal- Psychiatric Nurses of B.C. lery today and thank all B.C. nurses for the outstanding, We all know that nurses are very important and high- compassionate care they provide to patients and their ly skilled members of our health care team. I would just families every day. like the House to again join me in welcoming them to Government recognizes the important work nurses do the Legislature today. for British Columbians and acknowledges the vital role of all nurses working in health care teams across our prov- Hon. A. Virk: I rise today to introduce and recognize ince. Since 2001 we have more than doubled the number the representatives from Let's Talk Science, an organiza- of nursing training spaces and invested over $200 mil- tion dedicated to engaging children, youth and educators lion in the B.C. nursing strategy to educate, recruit and in science, technology, engineering and math. Joining retain nurses. them are their supporters Amgen Canada, who also oper- [1340] ate a leading-edge research facility in Burnaby. Let's Talk Nurse practitioners, registered nurses and registered Science and Amgen are here to inform members of their psychiatric nurses play key roles in two new assertive 3776 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

community treatment teams which provide commun- BRITANNIA SHIPYARD ity treatment and rehabilitation supports to clients in NATIONAL HISTORIC SITE Vancouver. Licensed practical nurses continue to be in- tegral to community and residential care, including di- J. Yap: I rise today to recognize the rich maritime his- alysis and operating room procedures. tory of the Britannia Shipyard National Historic Site in Since 2012 our government's nurse practitioners for my community of Steveston. Th e Britannia Shipyard is B.C. program has added 87 new positions for nurse prac- home to some of the oldest shipyard buildings in B.C. titioners across our province. By 2015 this total will in- First constructed in 1885 on the south arm of the Fraser crease to 135 new positions for B.C. nurse practitioners. River, the shipyards have been home to canneries, boat- Th e theme of this year's National Nursing Week is yards, homes and businesses. Th e shipyards have also "Nursing: a leading force for change." I'd like to recog- been home to many of B.C.'s diverse cultures, with thou- nize today the innovative and collaborative leadership sands of Chinese, European and Japanese immigrants, as of nurses in continuing excellent care for patients across well as First Nations people, coming to the area to fi sh our province. May 12 to 18 is National Nursing Week, and fi nd work. and I would like the House to join me in acknowledg- In 1992 Britannia Shipyard was designated a nation- ing all nurses for their dedication to British Columbians. al historic site and today continues as a boat restoration and repair hub, with local shipwrights preserving and J. Darcy: I am pleased to join my colleague oppos- showcasing heritage vessels. Th e recreational waterfront, ite and rise today on National Nursing Week to honour with its historic pilings, boardwalks and structures, are nurses across British Columbia and, especially, again to home to interpretive exhibits and boat-building demon- acknowledge the registered nurses, the licensed practical strations. Th is August the shipyards will host the 11th an- nurses, the registered psychiatric nurses and the nurse nual Richmond Maritime Festival, where many will see practitioners who have joined us in the House today. fi rsthand the community's rich maritime legacy. Let me begin by saying that I think we should be hon- [1345] ouring our nursing team members every single day of I would acknowledge the dedication of the many vol- the year, not just in nursing week. Nurses work in every unteers — in particular, the Britannia Heritage Shipyard corner of this province and in every conceivable aspect Society chair, Loren Slye — and the staff for revitalizing of health care, from the operating room to community the shipyards, including the eff orts of community part- clinics to First Nations health care, from caring for sen- ners such as the Steveston Folk Guild, the Vancouver iors at home to caring for them in care homes, from pre- Wooden Boat Society, the SS Master Society and the city natal care to end-of-life care and all points in between. of Richmond. Nurses also carry out critical work in mental health The Britannia Shipyard National Historic Site in and addictions programs, and they have a huge role to Steveston is a major asset to west coast maritime history, play in primary care too, an area where their potential has and I invite all members of this House and indeed all not yet been realized in this province. But that day will British Columbians to come and visit. come, because having everyone work to their full scope of practice is essential to high-quality health care. It's also MARINE CONSERVATION AREA essential to ensuring the long-term sustainability of our FOR SOUTHERN GULF ISLANDS public health care system. Th e holistic care that nurses provide means that they're G. Holman: I want to remind the House today about in a unique position to see how a person's health is aff ect- the proposed marine conservation area for the southern ed by everything: from the environment to child poverty; Gulf Islands, which is supported in principle by both from access to healthy, nutritious food to safe work- senior governments. But the process for this proposal ing and living conditions, to access to safe, clean water. has dragged on for 20 years, since Canada and B.C. fi rst Nurses are uniquely placed to practise health promotion agreed to study it. and prevention and to advocate to improve public health Conservation area is a misnomer. It is simply zoning care, and indeed they do. that ensures commercial activity is managed sustainably Every day our nurses and other members of the health while recognizing First Nations rights, but protects areas care team absorb the enormous pressures and strains of of high ecological importance. Th e south Salish Sea is one our health care system, oft en at great cost to their own of the most productive marine ecosystems in the world, physical and emotional health. But they keep on going home to more than 3,000 species including large popula- and keep on giving because of their passion and their tions of herring, salmon, birds, seals, sea lions, dolphins dedication to caring for us. and whales. On National Nursing Week let's tell our nurses how Today Parks Canada calls this area one of the most much we value them, and let's also do it every single day at-risk natural environments in Canada, including our of the year. southern resident orcas, due to high contamination from Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3777

toxins, noise pollution and diminished food supplies. and B.C. Mining Week is an opportunity to recognize Every year this area generates millions of dollars in com- and celebrate the importance of modern industry in mercial and food fi shery harvests and draws thousands British Columbia. Activities are planned for Vancouver of visitors who recognize it as a world-class destination and communities all over the province. for marine recreation. [1350] Th e Islands Trust states that provincial and federal Getting to production for any mine is really tough. Th e management for the area is fragmented and ineff ective, bedrock of the industry, if you will, is the small claims resulting in continued oil spills, sewage discharges, dere- holders, the prospectors, the placer miners, the hard-rock lict vessels and declining fi sh stocks. I urge this House miners — many working with small budgets but with to get to yes and designate the NMCA for the southern very big challenges in remote and rugged territory. If Gulf Islands and begin community-based and stake- assays look really promising, they might just have the op- holder planning for this precious marine environment portunity to sell a claim to a junior exploration company. as soon as possible, if for no other reason than it will be Capital is very tight, so many of those companies are good for business. facing their own challenges. But they persevere and em- bark on the more advanced exploration processes. If a CLEVELAND ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LANDS multitude of moons all line up, maybe — just maybe — the project will actually move forward up the ladder to- R. Sultan: Th anks to superintendent John Lewis, par- wards actual development of a mine. ent Lea Carpenter and the Free the Trees team, Cleveland Those larger companies that have the resources to Elementary School board lands destined for real estate actually open a mine have their own challenges. Ever- development have been preserved as teaching and recrea- changing international commodity markets — inter- tion space in North Vancouver. national price changes that they, and we, have absolutely We all recognize the pressure to realign surplus assets no control of — can derail even the best-laid project. from time to time. North Vancouver schools have played So when we think of a gold locket for Mom on Mother's their part with unused property, generating signifi cant Day, maybe just remember where it came from and the capital for new schools and seismic upgrades. However, women and men in the B.C. mining industry that, against when it came to liquidating Cleveland School's private all odds, made it possible. little forest, parents and Cleveland's 325 students drew the line. Th e school board listened, and the adjacent land Oral Questions remains intact. Students, teachers and neighbourhood volunteers SITE C POWER PROJECT REVIEW PANEL helped remove invasive plant species, plant native trees REPORT AND ENERGY ALTERNATIVES and bushes, and establish two outdoor classrooms. One consists of a teacher's rock and three rows of large boul- J. Horgan: Last week the joint review panel on the Site ders, and the other is a large circle in an open space. Th e C project issued its report — 400-plus pages. I know the most recent neighbourhood day involved removing in- minister spent his weekend boning up on the material, vasive lamium, spreading about 12 yards of manure and and I want to just highlight a couple of those points for consuming about 450 hot dogs. him, if I may. Lea Carpenter explained: "Restoring the wooded area Over the past ten years B.C. Hydro has spent $300 mil- has helped students learn about the habitat surrounding lion studying, reviewing, putting together documents for the school and its place in the larger ecosystem." the Site C project and almost zero on alternatives, to the Congratulations, Cleveland Elementary. Congratula- point where the joint review panel said…. It's not surpris- tions, school district 44. ing, then, that the panel said they cannot be confi dent that alternatives are "accurately valued." Aft er the report MINING WEEK was tabled, the review by the media was conducted, and the minister said that we weren't going to look at alterna- S. Fraser: It's B.C. Mining Week also, and right aft er tives, that we're going to forge ahead. Mother's Day too. What are the odds of that? Th e paral- Can I ask the minister how it is possibly in the pub- lels are pretty clear between Mining Week and Mother's lic interest to disregard the joint review panel's recom- Day. Th ere's no better way of saying "I love you, Mom" mendation that we look, somehow, at alternatives before or "Th ank you, Mom" than gold or platinum or silver or we spend $8 billion on power that we don't need today? copper or zinc. How about coal? Well, maybe not for Mother's Day, hon. Speaker. But Hon. B. Bennett: Well, I think, fi rst of all, I should all of these resources and other minerals help build the just remind the member and the House where the Site C economy and sustain the economy of this great province. project is in government's process. Th e fi rst stage of an Mining is one of B.C.'s largest and oldest industries, environmental assessment has been completed. Th at is 3778 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

the joint panel process. portunity of this additional time to have a genuine pro- Th e report has been presented to both the federal gov- cess that put forward genuine alternatives and a genuine ernment and the provincial government. Th at report now costing formula in front of an independent body, the B.C. resides in the provincial environmental assessment offi ce Utilities Commission. and in the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, Before we spend $8 billion, will you have the good where it will be reviewed and where potential conditions sense to put this before the B.C. Utilities Commission? to an eventual certifi cate, should it be granted, will be mulled over, over the next several months. Hon. B. Bennett: If the hon. Leader of the Opposition Early in the fall the provincial EAO and the federal fi nds that this particular job doesn't work out, I would agency will decide whether or not the project should get suggest he can easily fi nd a position as a contortionist, an environmental certifi cate, and subsequent to that the because he has twisted around so many times on this provincial government will have to make a fi nal invest- project and on this fi le. ment decision as to whether to proceed with the project. Th e words did not pass the hon. member's lips, but Th at's the process. I've read what he has said in the media. He talks about I would respond specifi cally to the question by also geothermal, and he talks about wind, and he talks about referring to what the joint panel said, because they were renewables. For the past ten years that member has re- very clear in saying that when — not if — the province ferred to that kind of power as "junk power." Th at's fi ne. needs this new electricity, the very best place to get it is Th e hon. Leader of the Opposition has clearly changed from the Site C project. I've got lots of quotations I'd be his mind on this topic suddenly, and fair enough. happy to read into the record, but that is, in fact, what Here, in fact, are a few things that the panel did say they said. about alternatives. Number one, they said that….

Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on Interjections. a supplemental. Hon. B. Bennett: I was just trying to add to the sus- J. Horgan: The minister conveniently neglects the pense. point that I made in the quotation that I read out, which What they did say — this is from the panel — was: "By was that absent any alternatives, it's diffi cult to come to comparison, projects such as wind power were noted to a conclusion one way or the other on what the next best have a lower operating life." least-cost option is. Unless, of course, when you're ar- Th is hydroelectric project, should it get approved, will ticulating what the process is, perhaps you could have last for over 100 years. "By comparison, projects such as articulated, Minister, what the process should have been, wind power were noted to have a lower operating life and that is to have the B.C. Utilities Commission — the than the project and would require replacement and sig- independent, arm's-length B.C. Utilities Commission — nifi cant rehabilitation aft er 30 years." Th e panel went on review the assumptions that are being made. to say: "Th e panel agrees with B.C. Hydro on the import- [1355] ance of predictable delivery." I know the hon. Leader of the Opposition gets this Interjections. stuff . I know he understands fi rm power. Th e panel is talking about the "importance of predictable delivery J. Horgan: I'm sorry. Am I interrupting your conver- and, hence, storage over periods from hourly to annual. sation, Minister? Oh good. Carry on. It's only $8 billion. Weather-dependent renewables alone are not the answer. It's Monopoly money on that side of the House. Th e sun does not always shine or the wind blow."

Interjections. Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official Opposition on a further supplemental. Madame Speaker: Members. J. Horgan: And talk about predictable delivery. I mean, SITE C POWER PROJECT REVIEW AND holy cow. ROLE OF B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION Now, this is complicated stuff , and absent a third party, we've had Liberals asking Liberals what they think about J. Horgan: We have 28 percent rate increases coming what the Liberals should do. What I'm hopeful we will forward over the next fi ve years, and now this govern- see from the mature and responsible government com- ment wants to add another $8 billion onto that. Th e joint ing on to its fi rst year is that they will do the right thing. review panel said we don't need the energy today. Quite [Applause.] clearly and categorically: we don't need the energy today. I note the fi rst one to clap was the last guy that can- A prudent, reasonable government would take the op- celled the rate hearing at the B.C. Utilities Commission, Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3779

before an election, so that he could tell the voters aft er Hydro. On both of these question and others the panel the election they were going to pay 28 percent more for recommends sending the project to the B.C. Utilities their power. Commission. [1400] As the minister for both Hydro and the core review, If I could go back to the minister in this decade that which is supposed to concern itself with best practices we're living in, the joint review panel said: "B.C. Hydro's for government, how does the minister justify proceed- outlook is that market prices it would achieve through ing without proper due diligence and the independent the forecast period would average $35 a megawatt hour" assessment that the Utilities Commission would provide? — radically less than the marginal cost of supply of Site C, $94 a megawatt hour. B.C. Hydro expects to lose "$800 Hon. B. Bennett: Well, as I said, the BCUC has in million in the fi rst four years of operation." fact never reviewed a large hydroelectric project like this. So let me just get this right — it's not the NDP saying Here, in fact, is what the panel did say. this; it's the joint review panel — $800 million of ratepay- Th e panel said that "there is little doubt about the com- ers' money that you're going to blow because you want to petence of B.C. Hydro to build and operate the project build this before it's time. effi ciently." Th ere is nothing in this report that would My question: will the minister please do the right thing indicate the panel lacked confi dence in B.C. Hydro's for ratepayers? Put this to the commission. Let's get real capacity, abilities or skills to engineer this project and to answers to real questions, not fi ction like the stuff that build it on time and on budget. What the panel did say comes from the minister. was that they did not have the resources to look at the kinds of things that the opposition is asking about. Hon. B. Bennett: Well, fi rst of all, the BCUC has never Th is side of the House responds to that by saying that conducted a review of a major hydroelectric dam in B.C. there has been a huge amount of due diligence done in the history of British Columbia. Th at's a fact. already by B.C. Hydro. We could study it further for I think that to propagate the impression that there has another few years. It has been 35 years under the micro- been no good work done on this project aft er 35 years scope today. of poking and prodding and analyzing and looking at it, [1405] particularly since 2010, is a fi ction, frankly. Th ere has What the panel did say is that when British Columbia been an enormous amount of work done on this project needs this new electricity, Site C is the best, lowest-cost by B.C. Hydro. Th at's true. We do put some confi dence in place to get it. the public utility. Th at side of the House used to put con- fi dence in the public utility. Th ey don't seem to anymore. Madame Speaker: The member for Vancouver- Th e technology that is proposed for this project is ma- Hastings on a supplemental. ture. B.C. Hydro understands it, probably as well as any organization in the world. Th e standards that have been S. Simpson: Th e B.C. Utilities Commission's biggest used to monitor and assess costs are to the highest inter- problem is they've been under assault by this govern- national standards available. ment for a decade because the government doesn't want You will fi nd that within the $8 billion budget there is independent assessments. a very, very large contingency, a very large infl ation ac- Th e panel questioned the credibility of basing a $7.9 count and a very large account for interest. If you total billion project on a 20-year-demand forecast without an up the cost of interest over the eight-year period to build explicit scenario for long-term pricing, and they con- this project, should it get permitted, and you add the con- cluded that the proponent has not fully demonstrated tingency fund and you add infl ation, you've got $3 bil- the need for the project on the timeline set forth. Th at's lion out of the $8 billion there as a cushion. So in fact, we what the panel said. Again, on these fundamental ques- think that B.C. Hydro has done its work. tions, they said: "Send it to the B.C. Utilities Commission." In addition, and fi nally, I would like to mention that We know this minister has ideological blinkers con- they hired KPMG to assess the costs of the project. cerning the Utilities Commission and with the political Frankly, if this ever did go to the BCUC, they do not have manipulation of B.C. Hydro that's been going on with the capacity to look a large project like this. It would take this government for years and years. at least two years, and they would have to hire an agency I quote the minister. In his letter concerning the core like KPMG. review he stated to ministers: "Th e overall goal of the core review process is to ensure the best possible use of S. Simpson: Th e joint review panel concluded that it government resources and respect for the interests of could not confi rm the accuracy of the project cost esti- taxpayers." mates because it doesn't have the information, time or How can the minister have any credibility on either of resources. Th ey also concluded that there is much un- his fi les when he ignores the panel's advice to ensure due certainty in the long-term forecast put forward by B.C. diligence is done by sending this project to the Utilities 3780 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

Commission for a full assessment? Nations, should government decide to proceed aft er an environmental certifi cate. Hon. B. Bennett: Even with my ideological blinkers that the member claims I have on — these are just read- GOVERNMENT ACTION ing glasses — the panel also suggested in November, and ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE again I quote: "Th e Minister of Energy announced a ser- ies of reforms that should put B.C. Hydro into a more M. Karagianis: Very sadly, over the weekend we sustainable position over the next ten years." saw another domestic violence death here in British Th ese include paying down regulatory accounts. Th ey Columbia, the death of a young Vancouver woman at include the elimination of the special tier 3 water rentals. the hands of her ex-husband. It's just the latest in a long Th ey include the reduction of dividends until B.C. Hydro string of these kinds of tragedies that have occurred here reaches a debt-to-equity ratio of 60-40. Th e NDP, when in the province. All of these cases very vividly confi rm they were in government, set the debt-to-equity ratio at that vulnerable women and their children are not being 70-30. We think it should be at 60-40. eff ectively protected by the government. Th is urgently Th ey also go on and say that, in fact, we are allowing needs to change. B.C. Hydro, encouraging B.C. Hydro to invest in cap- My question is to the Minister of Justice. What is she ital expenditures before Site C to the tune of $1.7 bil- going to do diff erently to ensure that these tragedies will lion a year. not happen again? If you look at what the NDP spent on capital on mak- ing sure that our dams and our transmission lines were Hon. S. Cadieux: We can all agree in this House, and in good shape and were able to provide the kind of reli- I believe that the vast majority of British Columbians able electricity that our people have become accustomed would agree wholeheartedly, that protecting vulner- to, you will fi nd that when they had their opportunity for able women and children in this province is a priority. ten years, they invested almost nothing. Domestic violence is a despicable act, and no one con- dones it. Th at's why this government has been making ef- FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION forts over the last number of years to see what programs ON SITE C POWER PROJECT and services we can add to that will make women and children safer in the province. D. Donaldson: Th e review panel was clear when it Th at's why, aft er extensive consultation with our part- said that Site C will have signifi cant adverse eff ects on ners in the fi eld of domestic violence, we introduced First Nations traditional use that cannot be mitigated. a three-year domestic violence plan that will invest an Th is is a big issue. additional $5.5 million to add to domestic violence units Th e Minister of Aboriginal Relations said that govern- in the province, which we know are an eff ective way to ment's consultation was adequate and that First Nations support women in abusive relationships; to add to pro- would be part of the solution, but the panel maintains the grams for aboriginal families in the province, where we province has yet to enter a discussion with First Nations know services are lacking; to add services for perpetra- on "the harmonious accommodation of all interests." tors to assist in the changing of behaviours; and to pro- Why does it take a review panel to tell the B.C. Liberals vide improved access to housing and transportation in to act honourably? Why should any First Nation trust rural and remote communities. this government on promises about Site C or any other We know that although the government does provide major projects? over $70 million a year in services to women and chil- dren, there's more that can be done, and we will continue. Hon. B. Bennett: Every once in a while you fi nd your- self at least partly in agreement with the opposition. M. Karagianis: Well, I don't know how anyone in this I do want to make it very clear that this side of the province can have confi dence in any of these programs House is well aware that there is signifi cant engagement when the minister responsible won't even stand up and with Treaty 8 First Nations that will be required over defend them. If this government wants to prevent vio- the next six months to a year. Th at is already happening. lence, then we need to see a substantial plan, not — and Th ere has been signifi cant engagement already. Th ere I quote the children's representative — an "empty shell" needs to be a lot more respectful engagement with First of a plan. Nations around this project. We will do that. All of us on Instead of taking action, so far this government has re- this side of the House will work hard at that. fused to implement nearly all of the recommendations [1410] from the Missing Women Inquiry. Th ey have failed to in- I'm sure that over a period of time, or at least I hope stall domestic violence courts in the province. Th ey have over a period of time, we can work enough with First set up an offi ce of domestic violence that actually has no Nations that we will fi nd, together, some benefi ts to First scope to provide any kind of services or help to families, Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3781

and the domestic violence plan will have no money and outreach programs. Th ose programs, by the way, reached won't even begin until 2015. 34,000 people last year. We spend $12 million for victim Again to the minister responsible for these programs, services programs and $12 million for crime victim as- the Minister of Justice: what is this government going sistance programs. For families and for children we have to do diff erently now in order to tackle this growing victim help lines. epidemic of domestic violence deaths here in British Th ere are many services off ered by government, but is Columbia? there more that can be done? Th at's why we have a prov- incial offi ce for domestic violence to be the coordinat- Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e provincial offi ce of domestic ing unit for domestic violence. Th at's why we have this violence was formed to help to coordinate the services broader suite of programs across government so that our and supports across government and to ensure that families and our communities can be safe and that people programs directed at violence against women and the in British Columbia can be safe from violence. services to women aff ected by violence were coordin- ated across government and working in the best way Madame Speaker: Th e member for Nanaimo on a they could. While societal attitudes are oft en diffi cult to supplemental. change, we believe that these eff orts within government and with our partners will help to shift the attitudes that L. Krog: Would that the words matched some kind of perpetuate domestic violence and help us collectively, as actual action. Since 2002, 85 percent of legal aid offi ces a society, to achieve our goal. in B.C. have been closed by the B.C. Liberals, and in rural [1415] communities, where services are even more challenging Th e three-year plan that the provincial offi ce of domes- to access, we've seen this government make cuts that tic violence put forward in response to the consultations closed all rural community law offi ces. and eff orts underway has been very well received by the Does the Minister of Justice think it's fair that vulner- community. Would we like to do more? Absolutely. Will able women in rural B.C. face increased barriers to ser- we continue to do more? Absolutely. Th is government is vices because of their shameful cuts to justice services for committed to working to prevent domestic violence and people in British Columbia? to support the women and children who unfortunately have been aff ected. Hon. S. Anton: We have, in fact, increased the budget to legal aid this year by $2 million. Th at is to create in- ACCESS TO LEGAL AID novative programs in family law and criminal law. Th at BY VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE is to help families all around British Columbia. We spend about $74 million on legal aid every year, L. Krog: It's a pretty strange way to recognize your and at the same time, we spend another $30 million on commitment. Th e children's representative said it per- our justice access centres, one of which is in the mem- fectly: this government's plan is short on funding and ber's own riding of Nanaimo, and family mediation cen- short on detail. I hope the Attorney General is listening, tres around British Columbia. Th is is to give ready access because that is who I'm directing my question to. to citizens to justice services. Rather than expand justice services for victims of do- Legal aid off ers help in remote ways through its tele- mestic violence, over the last ten years the B.C. Liberals phone programs. Th ere is help for people around British have cut legal aid funding by $23 million, shut down legal Columbia because it is important that everything we do aid offi ces and cancelled support services like the Law in justice services is accessible around British Columbia. Line phone service. So how does the Minister of Justice People need help around British Columbia. Th at's what expect women to access justice in British Columbia when we are ensuring through legal services and the other pro- they've cut these very services left , right and centre? grams we off er. [1420] Hon. S. Anton: Th ere is a substantial investment in helping a violence-free British Columbia and helping IMPLEMENTATION OF MISSING WOMEN families and helping victims. We spend $70 million a INQUIRY RECOMMENDATIONS AND year in annual funding. But we always have to remem- BUS SERVICE ON HIGHWAY 16 ber the terrible situations which we are facing right now, the tragedies that have happened in British Columbia in J. Rice: It's been a year and a half since the Missing the last few weeks. Women Inquiry called for urgent action to bring in a Let me set out the things that we are doing. We spend, shuttle bus along the Highway of Tears. When we asked as I said, $70 million in annual funding. Th at includes why no action is being taken to bring in the bus, the $32 million for spaces in transition homes. It includes Transportation Minister insisted that "there have been $16 million for violence against women counselling and a tremendous number of discussions and meetings that 3782 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

have been held." Yet mayors and First Nations leaders in of recognizing the importance of agricultural land and to the region say that the province has not met with them. support farmers and also provide a process for develop- Can the Justice Minister tell this House who is correct: ers and local governments to make land use decisions mayors and First Nations leaders or the Transportation where arable land was set aside and agricultural work Minister? was promoted and prioritized, while non-farming uses were restricted. Hon. S. Anton: Th e piece of this that we need to re- Th at was the establishment of the agricultural land re- member is that the overarching conclusion for northern serve throughout British Columbia, and the Agricultural highways from Commissioner Oppal was that northern Land Commission Act was adopted as the independent highways have to be safe. Th at safety is achieved through body to administer the agricultural land reserve. At the transportation: through the bus that runs along the high- time that it was established, it was estimated that between way, through the local transportation services, through 4,000 and 6,000 hectares of arable land in B.C. — 4,000 the Health Bus, through the train. Th ere is transportation. to 6,000 hectares of soil — were lost annually before 1972 It is also achieved through other ways of making the to non-farming purposes. Th e purpose to establish the highway safe, because they have to be safe at all times. ALR was to preserve farmland and to regulate how rural Th at's why there's increased cell phone service. Th at's and agricultural land could be used. why there's improved policing. Th at's why there's a hitch- Certainly, when it came in, it was hotly contested. It hiking study underway. Th at's why we've given money to was very intensely debated, and there was a lot of oppos- the Carrier-Sekani to do public safety workshops along ition at the time. Understandably, individuals who had Highway 16 — because those highways need to be safe plans to develop their land that was to be zoned in agri- 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. culture tried to have it exempted, so there was a process to establish that. [End of question period.] Now, our agricultural land reserve and Agricultural Land Commission that we have in place in B.C. is re- Orders of the Day garded and held up as a model of public policy in terms of leading, with respect to the management of agricul- Hon. T. Stone: In the chamber of the assembly here ture, recognizing the central importance of maintaining we'll continue second reading of Bill 24 and in the arable land and the provision of local food for local needs. Douglas Fir Committee Room the continued estimates Although, initially, the reaction was fi erce, it came over of Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training. the last four decades to be recognized in B.C. and, I think, [1425] across Canada and internationally as an ideal model for managing our agricultural land, our farmland. [D. Horne in the chair.] My fi rst opposition to Bill 24 is that it puts the suc- cessful functioning of the agricultural land reserve, one Second Reading of Bills of the main principles and proponents, under attack and undermines the integrity of the ALR. BILL 24 — AGRICULTURAL LAND I think probably the most controversial change is pro- COMMISSION AMENDMENT ACT, 2014 moted to divide land in B.C. Currently, under the agricul- (continued) tural land reserve, it's now recognized as one zone. Th e main problem with Bill 24 is that it proposes to estab- M. Elmore: I'm pleased to rise and join in the debate lish two zones — zone 1, which is Vancouver Island, the on second reading for Bill 24, the Agricultural Land South Coast and the Okanagan, and zone 2, which is the Commission Amendment Act, 2014. I rise to speak op- remainder of the province. Zone 2 covers 90 percent of posed to this bill, and I want to start by talking about the the total land in the agricultural land reserve. historical context of the agricultural land reserve, how it [1430] came into being here in British Columbia, and then out- Th e problem is that it undermines the ability to pre- line my views and concerns with some of the main con- serve agricultural land. Currently, land that's held in the tentions of the bill. ALR…. Th e priority for decisions, in terms of land use Th e agricultural land reserve — now over 41 years here decisions for removing or placing land into the ALR — in British Columbia — was an issue that was discussed, the primary consideration is to serve agriculture and hotly debated during the 1972 provincial election. Th e farming concerns. But with the creation of zone 2, these issue of the agricultural land reserve — agricultural land lands will be exempted from that requirement, and the and industrial development — was a very hot topic. decisions will be based not primarily on the agricultural When the government of the day, the fi rst NDP gov- use but other uses as well — economic, cultural and other ernment, was elected, they made the decision to strike regional planning objectives. Th ese changes mean that and create the agricultural land reserve for the purpose land exclusion applications outside of the Island, south Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3783

coast and Okanagan will be much more likely to succeed. adequately support our farmers and for our farmers to One of the problems, one of the many problems, with be successful — allowing more land to be removed from Bill 24, in addition to the creation of two zones and the the agricultural land reserve. ease to remove farmland from protection, is the removal In addition to the specifi c problems with Bill 24, to add of a central, provincial, independent body making those insult to injury is the fact that while at diff erent times decisions to proposed regional subcommittees that will positions have been brought forward by the government, be responsible for making decisions about removing land by the Liberals, in terms of the ALR and the Agricultural from the ALR. Land Commission, we didn't hear anything in the plat- Currently we have the structure of the Agricultural form before the election. Th ese proposed changes were Land Commission, which oversees the ALR. When it not discussed or put to the people of British Columbia was set up, one of the priorities was that it should be in- last year before the election. dependent and that it should function in an independent Now the bill is being introduced without a mandate, fashion. It was set up as an independent tribunal with the because British Columbians weren't advised of that, and expectation that it avoid political interference. without an adequate consultation period for individuals Th e changes, however, proposed in Bill 24 will severe- and many people who are concerned about this issue, ly impact the independence of the Agricultural Land who gain their livelihood from farming. Th e many busi- Commission. With the decentralization of the ALC — nesses that have sprung up out of our agricultural in- there's the recommendation to create six regional panels dustry have not had an opportunity to give input and — the problem is that…. One of the main pressures, cer- feedback with respect to the bill. tainly, for land exemption from the ALR has to do with We've heard some claims from the Minister of local projects or developments. With the decisions now Agriculture that he's accepting e-mails and personal let- resting in the regional bodies, there will be much more ters, that he's open to those suggestions, but I think it local pressure, in terms of trying to meet local land issues. falls short, certainly, from expectations of bringing such In addition, the problem, in terms of the establishing signifi cant changes to our long-held agricultural land of the regional panels, is it undermines the central au- reserve and our practice of administering it through the thority of a provincial body, but it also undermines the Agricultural Land Commission. Th ere's really no man- independence because cabinet now will be given more date. power to handpick members of the Agricultural Land I was sitting on our Finance Committee when we were Commission. Currently the chair is appointed, but with undertaking tours across the province, listening to pres- Bill 24 the cabinet will now be able to appoint the chair entations and recommendations from individuals and of the Agricultural Land Commission as well as six vice- organizations for their recommendations to the budget. chairs of the regional panels. Th is will further subject the We were surprised to hear that presenters would come, Agricultural Land Commission to the pressure of local and they wanted to make a presentation to the commit- land issues. tee on having input to the possible changes happening It was previously an independent Crown agency with to the agricultural land reserve and Agricultural Land the mission to preserve agricultural land and encourage Commission. and enable farm businesses throughout B.C., while it Th e members of the Finance Committee — our in- was also working towards a provincial agricultural land itial response was: "Th is is not the appropriate body for reserve system that fostered economic, environmental these reviews." It was only later that it was revealed that and social sustainability. It operates as a provincial zone there had been a press release. A government press re- where farming is encouraged and non-agricultural uses lease had been sent out on October 24 that indicated are controlled, covering about 4.7 million hectares in B.C. that public input into the core review process, which With the creation of the proposal to break up the agri- would include concerns with respect to the Agricultural cultural land reserve into two zones, and also to under- Land Commission, could be made to the Select Standing mine the ability of an independent provincial body, into Committee on Finance and Government Services, which six politically appointed regional subcommittees to make was already underway. We were already well into our decisions…. hearings, and we had individuals who were concerned [1435] about possible changes and wanted to come to our body Th is is really, in my view and also talking to many con- to raise these concerns. stituents, businesses and folks who are interested and It created, I think, surprise. I was surprised on the concerned about food security and who support our committee. Our committee members were surprised. It B.C.-based farming, B.C. farmers, and recognize the im- was a surprise to us and, I think, our Chair, who wasn't portance of needing to expand the ability of B.C. to grow advised of this. It was only aft er the fact that, indeed, we and expand our fruits and vegetables and goods that we were able to hunt down and fi nd the press release that had consume here in British Columbia…. Th ese are moves been issued by the Minister Responsible for Core Review . that will undermine the ability of British Columbia to It ended aft er a short couple of weeks as well. 3784 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

[1440] local agriculture sector. Nearly 48 percent of food that we In terms of input, consultation into signifi cant sub- consume in British Columbia is produced here, which is stantive changes, certainly the public was not informed, quite an impressive statistic. was not advised prior to the election. During the course, We also see growth in and a real support for locally individuals attempted to come and make presentations to grown food, for families wanting to feed themselves and the Finance Committee, which was not given…. We had their children healthy food. Th ey want to know where the not been mandated with that when there were promises food comes from. Th ere's growth and a real expansion to bring, to hold consultations. I think that assurances in terms of restaurants and the farm-to-plate business from the minister that he's accepting e-mails and letters model as well as, I think, for supporting locally grown do not meet the standard, certainly, unless it's an incred- food and the importance of that. When we look at what's ibly low standard with respect to public consultations. happening…. Th ese are some fundamental problems with this bill, [1445] with Bill 24, undermining our agricultural sector in B.C. Now, when the agricultural land reserve was brought and, I think, really undermining public confi dence in our in, in 1973, I think you can really characterize that as, system and disrespecting citizens in British Columbia in certainly, a very visionary step and a very bold public terms of the opportunity to have input and to have con- policy statement to put into place. Th e fact that it has cerns brought forward and to really engage in a discus- been sustained over 40 years — today I think we can ap- sion on this topic. preciate that. I visited the Trout Lake Farmers Market in Vancouver When we look at the challenges around food security, on the weekend and was distributing information about when we look at what's happening in California now with the bill. One thing I found very surprising is that there their record worst drought…. Th ey've had to declare a is actually a high level of engagement. Individuals were state of emergency. Th ey're expecting, as California pro- knowledgable about the bill. For a specifi c piece of legis- duces a good majority of fruits and vegetables for the lation, I was taken by surprise. rest of the United States, that food prices will be rising Certainly, the reaction from folks that I talked to was because of the hardship on the local farmers. that they were, I think, very concerned and upset about Th e impact here in British Columbia…. We must move the proposed changes and frustrated with the manner, as towards the direction of having the ability to grow more well, in which it had been implemented — a very heavy- of our food in British Columbia. We have to support our handed manner by the government. My message to them local farmers and protect our existing farmland for a was and continues to be to raise concerns, to communi- long-term view, in terms of ensuring we have adequate cate their concerns to the Minister of Agriculture, the food security. Minister for Core Review, the Premier. I think there's a growing awareness, as well, about the We need to put a halt to this bill. We need to hit pause, importance of food security and environmental sustaina- and we need to ensure that British Columbians are able bility, in a global context of climate change, global warm- to participate in and bring their concerns forward on ing and the impact that that has, not only on food prices, this very important issue. When we talk about…. If you with food prices increasing — we've seen prices increas- go to any farmers market, you'll see, I think, another dy- ing for cattle and beef and now anticipate prices being namic that's very unique to British Columbia and re- on the rise for fruits and vegetables, with the drought in fl ects the success of the agricultural land reserve. Th at is California — but also in terms of pressures on transpor- that we have, number one, the success of farmers mar- tation, rising costs. kets themselves. Here in British Columbia we've seen the growth and Th ey have grown substantially and become very popu- the popularization of the 100-mile diet — that's a local lar right across the province in all communities. When phenomenon as well — as well as many successful busi- you go through all the farmers markets, you'll be amazed ness models, in terms of taking locally produced food by just the breadth of products. It's really a credit to and delivering it either to restaurants or to local busi- the entrepreneurship of local producers and local busi- nesses or to individuals. ness people to have developed just an incredible range Th ese are really popularizing and promoting aware- of products — everything from homemade jams to, of ness around the importance of food security. I think it's course, your produce to locally made chocolates. also what is informing the concern coming forward not Of course, we have just a wide range of products that only from B.C. farmers and producers — and, really, the are very popular. It is really a very dynamic business multiple businesses that depend on locally grown and system. locally produced and raised agricultural goods for their I also wanted to mention that, in reference to that, we businesses — but also individuals. are seeing British Columbia also leading — I would con- In terms of our view moving forward, we have to con- tend — in Canada and really making a statement world- tinue to recognize the importance of B.C. farmland, to wide in terms of the recognition and the vibrancy of our preserve that and to ensure that there's always pressure Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3785

and there's always tension, in terms of removing land direction. from the agricultural land reserve for other purposes. We've seen cuts to the Ministry of Agriculture and Th e challenge to maintain it, certainly, is a central con- Lands budget in 2009, and these have been undermining cern. It's something that we have to ensure that for our our food security and also concerns around sustainability. existing land, we protect it, and that existing land re- In Vancouver farmers markets are very popular, and mains a permanent legacy for generations to come. it's recognized…. The Vancouver city council is also As well, there's an excellent article in B.C. Business, bringing forward concerns about Bill 24 and passed a the November 2013 magazine, that talks about and lays motion in council. Th e Vancouver food charter, which out really how dynamic and fast-growing our local food was adopted in 2007, encourages personal, business and sector is, not just in terms of how fast it's growing with government food practices that foster local production respect to the popularity of farmers markets but the rise and protect natural and human resources. of — we see them opening every day — local restaurants Th e Vancouver food strategy also has been promot- that exclusively market that their foods are grown in B.C., ed in terms of encouraging local communities to de- and also the distribution systems that are set up to sup- velop local food networks around growing and utilizing port those businesses. B.C.-grown food and encouraging that. It's been a very Certainly, it's a growing sector. It's a sector that we successful program that has been taken up. I think the have to continue to support and ensure that it's strength- recognition by folks that I talk to, neighbours, in pro- ened. Bill 24 goes in the wrong direction and undermines grams that are run out of the neighbourhood houses — those eff orts. South Vancouver Neighbourhood House as well as Cedar So that's Bill 24. I want to also talk about the history, in Cottage…. Th ese are the programs that Vancouverites terms of when the agricultural land reserve was brought recognize the importance of and, I think, have led to an into being, but also some of the context and thinking increased awareness. behind that. Th e motion that was passed at the Vancouver council [1450] meeting on October 8, 2013, calls on the government to Bill 24 will undermine not only the integrity of the support the preservation of farmland in our agricultur- agricultural land reserve but also threaten our farmland. al land reserve, and that if the ALC and ALR are to be Th at also has to be taken into context of, I think, the poor modifi ed, that there be an adequate period for input, for record of this government with respect to supporting our consultation, for concerns to be brought forward, and agricultural sector in B.C. that this is a huge concern. While B.C. enjoys a very fertile and productive agri- [1455] cultural sector, we have the least amount of support for Th ese are important issues, not only in terms of dry agriculture here in B.C., the least amount compared to public policy. You can argue it aff ects our fundamentals any province in Canada. In B.C. we only invest 5 percent of life, and certainly, these changes proposed in Bill 24 in terms of supporting our agricultural sector, compared undermine our food security. to other provinces spending an average of 14 percent. As well, the Liberals eliminated the buy-B.C. market- S. Robinson: I rise in the House today in complete and ing initiative in 2001, which was very successful in pro- total opposition to this government's intention to incre- moting B.C. products and encouraging not only British mentally destroy the agricultural land reserve with Bill 24. Columbians to buy and support those products but in I wanted to say how grateful I am that previous gov- terms of marketing it outside of British Columbia and ernments had this idea and this commitment to take our around the world. agricultural land and to put a proverbial fence around it, We have also seen a report from the Auditor General in recognizing that future generations would need to have 2010, recommending that we need to protect B.C.'s farm- access to these lands so that we can have a sustainable land, and also a recommendation that the Agricultural agricultural sector, one that's capable of feeding our com- Land Commission needs to have support in order to fulfi l munities, feeding our children and feeding our grand- its mandate and that there was a lack of compliance and children and our great-grandchildren. enforcement and a lack of knowledge about agricultural Th is system of putting aside arable land where agri- land reserve boundaries. cultural activity can be promoted and prioritized, while The agricultural land reserve and the Agricultural non-farming uses are restricted, is a policy of vision. It's Land Commission were established not just to protect a policy that took tremendous courage and a great rec- agriculture but also to support and really encourage ognition that if these lands weren't protected, they would farmers and the agricultural sector in British Columbia. eventually disappear. Th ese arable lands, a small portion Bill 24 undermines that. In addition, in the context of of our land base, were at serious risk of becoming hous- how agriculture has really fallen very low in terms of a ing or commercial or industrial zones, thereby losing political priority, we're seeing a need to support our agri- these lands to grow food forever. cultural sector, and Bill 24 goes, certainly, in the wrong Perhaps I can remind this House of life before the ALR. 3786 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

I myself was actually a small child. Th at's how old it is. It's land when making their determination. Th is body has a little bit older than me. I've had to do a bit of research, been paying very close attention for 40 years. Th ey're because I was living in Montreal during the time and very experienced in working with local bodies that have really had no sense of what activity was going on here. local knowledge and making sure that they consider all In doing my research, I learned that between 4,000 and factors when tweaking these boundaries. 6,000 hectares of arable land in British Columbia were [1500] lost each year prior to the agricultural land reserve. Now, in 1975 the Socreds came into power. Although It was Dave Barrett's government and the leadership they were a vociferous voice against the agricultural of Harold Steves, who's now serving the community as land reserve, they recognized that there was widespread a well-loved Richmond councillor, who helped to push public acceptance of a land reserve. In 1978 the federal and make the agricultural land reserve an election issue. lands directorate report found that 80 percent of 800 B.C. When they won the election, they made it a reality. landowners interviewed saw the ALR system quite fa- It really wasn't without its challenges, and I know the vourably. Th ey knew and appreciated and saw the value previous speaker spoke to this. Th ere really was tremen- of protecting our agricultural land. Any tweaks that that dous opposition. Farmers who had put their life invest- Socred government made to the ALR legislation really ment into their land and recognized that at some point only related to the appeals processes and public hearings. they would sell the land were completely outraged. Th ey recognized — even the Socreds recognized — the As I was reading up on the history, what dawned on value of protecting these lands, and they recognized the me was, when you read about our public health system, widespread public support of this policy. that once upon a time doctors were outraged when so- Under the NDP government of the '90s there were cialized medicine came into being. additional tweaks to the agricultural lands, most of which While I recognize that these changes are really very were actually shutting down the holes, created by the diffi cult, when there's vision attached to it for the long Socreds, that permitted the development of golf courses term and for the benefi t of future generations, I think we on arable land. I still can't quite wrap my head around can all appreciate that. We certainly feel that way about decisions to chase a white ball all over a perfectly mani- our socialized medicine, and there are many around cured green lawn where we should be growing food, and this province that feel that way about the agricultural it's rather embarrassing. But the protections were put land reserve. back in place, just as they should have been. Th ere was at the time a frenzy of rezonings that were An additional adjustment to the legislation included going in — applications so that these developments could eliminating direct appeals to cabinet of decisions made get done before the ALR actually came into being. Th e by the Agricultural Land Commission — direct appeals. Agriculture Minister of the day introduced a farmland Th e government of the day received tremendous heat freeze, an order-in-council to halt these subdivisions, from media, landowners, advocacy bodies and the gen- and fi nally the Land Commission Act was introduced on eral public over the ability to override and even under- February 22, 1973. Now, with all of these angry people, it mine the work of the Agricultural Land Commission. took tremendous courage and tremendous foresight to Th e government saw fi t to eliminate political interfer- stick to the legislation, knowing that future generations ence in the process and to let the commission do its job like our generation would recognize and value this legis- as it was meant to: unhindered and unencumbered from lation that was put in place. political interference. The Provincial Land Commission was charged with A '97 opinion survey noted that over 80 percent of designating ALR sites around the province, and the same British Columbians considered it unacceptable, abso- body, even back then, would be responsible for hearing lutely unacceptable, to remove land from the agricultur- proposals to remove lands from the ALR for non-farming al land reserve. It's certainly very telling when you can purposes. Th is really caught my attention. It was built right get 80 percent of the people of this province to agree on into the legislation that the body responsible, this neutral anything. What it says to me is that the agricultural land body, would be able to tweak the agricultural land reserve reserve is valued by the British Columbian electorate. as needed. Th ere has always been recourse and opportunity When the Liberals came to power in 2001, they en- to tweak these boundaries, and it has been done through- gaged in a core review process. Th ey really like these core out the history of the agricultural land reserve. Th rough all review processes. Th ey took a look at the Land Reserve these 40 years there has been opportunity to tweak bound- Commission, and they brought forward the Agricultural aries as needed. Land Commission Act, with the idea of making the agri- The Agricultural Land Commission certainly de- cultural land reserve "more effi cient, eff ective and region- veloped excellent relationships through its work with ally responsive by providing for regional commission local governments, the bodies responsible for land use. panels and expanding delegation." Th at's what local governments do. Th is commission has Interestingly enough, they proposed to bring in six always considered economic, social and cultural uses of regional panels made up of commissioners who live in Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3787

the region, under the guise that local decision-makers Let's get back to this process of this bill and how British understood local issues. Funny that. I come from local Columbians even heard about it. Never once, never once government, and I thought that was the role of local gov- during this last election, did we hear anything about dis- ernment. I thought mayors, councillors and regional dir- mantling the agricultural land reserve or the Agricultural ectors had that role. Land Commission. Before the 2013 election there were Th is act was also supposed to delegate increased re- two reviews of the ALC — one by the Auditor General sponsibility to local regional governments, but the com- in 2010 and a second order by government. mission noted in their 2003-2004 annual service plan These reviews resulted in the Liberals claiming to report that only 14 — only 14 — of 136 local govern- recognize…. At the time, they claimed to recognize the ments were even interested in discussing delegation with need for the ALC to do their job. So they actually gave the commission. Local governments recognized that the them a $4 million lift , saying: "You need more resources independence of the role of the commission should stand to do this fi ne job that you're doing." Th ey liked it. Th ey on its own. liked what they were doing. Th ey gave them more money, So where are we now? Well, we have a government specifi cally. It was specifi cally to adjust the boundaries, that is proposing to further erode the power and the in- because that's what the Auditor General suggested. dependence of the Agricultural Land Commission. Th ey In fact, in October 2011 the then Agriculture Minister, want to appoint their own handpicked vice-chairs to who is representing Comox, said: "I'm looking forward in these panels, and their rationale for Bill 24 is that there is the next month or so to actually release that report, but no real viable agricultural land in zone 2, which compris- not just release the report; actually have some mitigation es about 90 percent of the agricultural land in the ALR. factors that actually just reinforce the fact that this prov- I fi nd it fascinating because the farmers I talk to say ince and this government fi nd the ALR and the ALC a that you can grow plenty of stuff in the north and in the great entity that actually promotes farming, protects and Kootenays and that it all depends on what you want to preserves quality farmland in this province…." Th eir own grow. What's really interesting is…. I was talking to my Agriculture Minister spoke to the ALR — protecting and husband about this over the weekend, and he just looked preserving quality farmland in the province. at me sort of incredulously and said: "But if there's green It's reminiscent that during the election, we don't hear stuff on it, it grows stuff ." I mean, that's just a general…. anything about this, and it's reminiscent of the HST. It's a style of communicating to the electorate aft er you get Interjections. elected, not before. "Why would we tell people before what we're going to do? We'll just tell them aft er the S. Robinson: But diff erent kinds of things need to be election." grown. It's only where you are up in tundra that you can't Aft er the election, what do we hear from this Liberal grow stuff . So really, when it comes down to it, it depends government? We hear that aft er two reviews and a fi - on what it is you want to grow in which part of the prov- nancial lift that will assist the ALC to do its job, the ALC ince. I'll get to that a little bit later, as we actually talk to will be part of another core review process. Th ey just had some scientists and we hear what they have to say. If this two reviews. I don't understand. On October 4, 2013, the government had taken the time to consult — and con- Liberal government ordered the ALC to stop boundary sulting doesn't mean reading e-mails; that's not consult- review work that the Auditor General recommended it ing — they would learn a whole bunch of things. conduct, because they're going to be doing a core review. [1505] Now, if a core review is about looking for effi ciencies, In the world that I come from, consulting means bring- how can this government say that creating two zones ing together the stakeholders and hearing from them. It and handpicking vice-chairs is going to be more effi - means understanding what the challenges are and what cient and more cost-eff ective? In fact, it would seem to the concerns are. In my world consulting means hearing me that it would actually be less effi cient and perhaps about what the farmers are growing in the Kootenays in- even more costly. stead of telling British Columbians that nothing but hay A month later, aft er the ALC stopped their boundary grows in those regions. review — in November, fi ve months aft er the election — In my world consulting means getting all the facts and the Globe and Mail revealed that the Liberals actually had making policy based on these facts, rather than listening draft ed a secret plan to dismantle the ALR and the ALC to a few people who have perhaps had their proposals re- as part of their core review. Th e plan was draft ed in the jected by the Agricultural Land Commission and decid- days and weeks following the then Agriculture Minister ing that you're just going to do something about it and being reprimanded by the ALC for contravening rules make up the facts along way to support your decision. against political interference in the commission's deci- What we have here before us is a piece of legislation that sions — something about a rodeo. I don't know — agri- is decision-based evidence-making instead of evidence- cultural land. based decision-making. Th is was really about political interference, political 3788 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

interference in a decision made by an independent body, "We question whether this is sound policy and direction in a an independent body whose role it is to prevent the province with a very limited land base capable of food production. British Columbia public waking up one day and asking: "In areas designated as ALR, decisions regarding subdivision, exclusion and uses of land for purposes other than agriculture are "What happened to our agricultural land?" Once caught, currently considered from a food production perspective. Th at the then Minister of Agriculture, the member for Peace is, protecting the inherent quality of land for food production is, River North, noted that he was only advocating as an by law, the primary consideration. Other considerations, such as MLA in the days before he was given the Agriculture socioeconomic conditions, are secondary" — just as they should be. "Th is approach has been proven to keep future options available." portfolio. This is how the agricultural land reserve and the He then went on to say that the ALC "makes in- Agricultural Land Commission have been operating. Th is dependent decisions about land use in British Columbia, government wants to change that. Th ey give this great ex- and I fully respect their decision." Th at was the case on ample. It was really very helpful, because I am not a sci- November 10, 2013. If that's the case, how is it that the entist and I am not a farmer. I'm a city mouse, so I don't Agriculture Minister and his cabinet respect the work of have a great sense of agricultural lands, but this was very the agricultural commission and then say: "But it needs helpful. Th ey note: to be diff erent"? "If the poor economic performance of tree fruit production in [1510] the Okanagan Valley of the '70s had taken precedence over the Th e Premier has chosen to not only defend her minis- inherent capability of many Okanagan Valley soils to produce both ter, who engaged in political interference and broke the tree fruits and grapes, and had such lands not been protected in the ALR, the vibrant wine industry" — I will make note, too, that rules about the independence of the Agricultural Land I do know something about that industry; I quite like Okanagan Commission…. She actually said that the proposal to wines — "and the associated agritourism business that we have redefi ne the ALC has merit, claiming that there may be today would not have been possible, or at the very least, it would some lands in the ALR that ought not to be protected have been diminished." given its "limited farming value." Th e fact that we have had a fabulous policy in place for How does she know this? It's sort of like: "So how do 40 years tells us that this current generation has benefi ted you know that?" Does she now have a degree in agricul- from it. I have serious concerns that Bill 24 will rip off ture? Th ey certainly haven't consulted. Had she checked future generations of the same possibilities. with the farmers? Has she even read what the soil scien- What they do go on to note is that agricultural land tists are telling us? use decisions should not be tailored to regional condi- I'd like to read into the record a little bit about what I tions. As far as they are aware, the Agricultural Land learned from the soil scientists. Th ese are the people who Commission decision-making has been incredibly sensi- have lots of degrees aft er their names. Th ey've written a tive to regional and community diff erences, both in the letter about their concerns, serious concerns, about Bill type of agriculture and diff erences in other land and re- 24. Th ey write: source uses. Th ese soil scientists, who come from all over "As a group of experienced soil scientists who have worked the province — this is their profession. Th ey study these throughout British Columbia for many years, we have serious decisions, and they recognize that the Agricultural Land concerns over the substantial change in direction embodied in Commission as it stands today has done a fabulous job. Bill 24, presented to the provincial Legislature on March 27, 2014. Th ey note that the commission has worked for many "For the past four decades preservation of agricultural lands has been a provincewide priority aimed at protecting existing farm- years with local and regional governments to support lands and lands that have the potential for future agricultural use." community and regional planning. Th is already happens. Potential. Imagine that, protecting farmland that has Now, this goes on to talk about the concerns about the potential. diff erent quality of soils, but they note that a class 3 soil "Some of those future agricultural lands are now forested, and in the Fraser Valley is, of course, diff erent from a class 3 until such time as they are needed and developed for agriculture, soil in the Peace. they will continue to contribute to wood and fi bre production and thereby to the provincial economy." [1515] So where you have stuff growing right now, that has value Th ey note: "Capability, based on the range of crops, now and into the future, in all likelihood — and possibly needs to be considered along with the suitability and pro- for agricultural land, should we need it. ductivity of individual crops on specifi c soils in specifi c "For such lands not currently farmed, the objective is to keep the local climates." option open for future agriculture." Th ey go on to note that at diff erent times, a diff erent Th ese soil scientists admire the vision of the future class of lands will grow diff erent kinds of things. Th ey and recognize that these lands will possibly serve some note that some class 6 lands are important components purpose for us and for our grandchildren and great- of livestock production, notably the natural grasslands grandchildren. Th ese soil scientists "consider this to be of the southern Interior. Th ese provide the oft en limited a prudent course of action in the face of an uncertain early spring and fall grazing that reduces both labour and future." feed costs of ranchers. Th ey go on to describe the bill, and they note: If these things aren't respected, there will be a tremen- Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3789

dous undue cost that come to these farmers. Th at cost ent rules governing each of these sections. But just a week will be then, of course, borne by the rest of us — those later on Kelowna radio, she actually said that this idea of us who like to eat. had some merit. So clearly, either something happened One of the things I do want to point out…. I'd like to in that week, or she wasn't actually quite forthright with read into the record the conclusions that these soil scien- what the plans were. tists make, because I think that's really important. [1520] Th ey note that they completely agree with the words In fact, the radio announcer summarized it and said: of the late Gary Runka, who was the former chair of the "Th e Premier says marginal agricultural land in north- B.C. land commission. Th ey note that the key elements ern B.C. is getting in the way of developing the liquid of eff ective farmland preservation are as follows: natural gas industry." So clearly, this is not about tweak- "A provincewide zone administered by a provincial commis- ing boundaries. sion operating in the overall public interest of present and future Th is is really about saying the agricultural land reserve generations; a zone fi rmly based on science that objectively as- sesses the inherent biophysical ability of lands to grow crops; a is getting in the way of our latest project, our latest eye permanent zone from which urban expansion and other non- candy, our latest little shiny thing that we're going to show compatible uses are redirected, not merely a zone that rations to all of British Columbia that we're capable of doing — food-producing lands to other uses over time; a zone within which rather than recognizing that you need to balance these. British Columbians are committed to supporting, where necessary, those who farm the land and produce the food upon which we rely." Th ere is no balance in this at all, and that is so disre- Th en they sign it. When they sign it…. It's amazing. spectful to every single farmer across this province and We've got Terence Lewis, PhD in soil science; Art Bomke, to everybody who likes to eat local foods. PhD, professor emeritus at UBC faculty of land and food Here we are just months aft er an election where there systems; Mike Fenger, BSF — lots of initials — soils and was not a word to the electorate that the B.C. Liberals land use consultant; Niels Holbek, bachelor of science were considering a major shift in policy and that we're in agriculture; John Jungen, bachelor of science in agri- going to be changing our stewardship of agricultural land culture; Evert Kenk, BSF; Bob Louie, BSF; Paul Sanborn, for this province. It becomes clear that the motivation for PhD, associate professor, ecosystem science and manage- doing this has absolutely nothing to do with agriculture. ment, University of Northern British Columbia; Margaret It has everything to do with their singular focus on LNG. Schmidt, PhD, associate professor of soil science at SFU; Th is government wants to charge full steam ahead, do Scott Smith, PAg — professional agriculturalist, I guess — whatever it wants to do without being honest with us soil scientist; Jace Standish, master of science, RPF, PAg, about why it's destroying a 40-year legacy that has been terrestrial ecology and soils at BCIT; Udo Wittneben, intended to protect farming opportunities for genera- bachelor of science in agriculture; and Eveline Wolterson, tions to come. master of science, PAg. Several weeks ago this city mouse went to Creston. I Here we have some amazing professionals who've was there as a critic to attend the AKBLG, which is local taken the time to let us know what they know. I quite governments' association up there. Th ere was actually trust scientists in helping us to make policy decisions. some substantial concern from mayors, councillors and Clearly, Bill 24 has not taken that into consideration. directors about the proposed changes. Not only is this policy redundant, because we already Many were quite worried about how the dismantling know that local considerations are taken into considera- of the ALR and the ALC is going to aff ect their constitu- tion as well as social and economic forces…. What that ents. Th ey noted that there hasn't even been any consul- does for me is it makes me a little suspicious about: why tation with the farmers. So this group of local politicians, are you doing this, and what's this about? If the real issue who represent the local electorate, put together an emer- is tweaking boundaries and an independent body is al- gency resolution asking the UBCM and this provincial ready addressing that issue, why would you propose a government to go out and properly consult with farmers plan that would break up a system that's already doing it? in all areas of the province in order to properly identify Why would you upset the millions of British Columbians just how these proposed changes will impact the future who have been very protective of this for 40 years? of agriculture in our province. It certainly seems to me that there was a plan all along On this side of the House we value consultation — real to just make it easier to pull lands out of the ALR so that consultation. Certainly, the local government offi cials pipelines and gas plants can be built. Government for that I've talked to value real consultation. Th ey haven't over 40 years…. Th ere have been diff erent governments, even been properly consulted — the farming commun- but every single government recognized the value, the ity — about the implications of this bill. Really, I can't im- importance, of protecting our agricultural land for fu- agine, as somebody who comes from local government, ture generations. ever doing sweeping land use changes without consult- In the fi rst week of November 2013 the Premier de- ing with the group that is going to be most impacted by nied that her Liberal government was going to split the the proposed changes. agricultural land reserve into two sections, with diff er- When I was in Creston, I spent the aft ernoon touring 3790 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

three diff erent farms, had conversations with these farm- V. Huntington: How does one begin to speak about ers to hear what they had to say, did my own, I guess, little a piece of legislation that is so confounding in its intent mini-consultation, because I really wanted to understand that I fi nd myself looking at the faces across the aisle what this bill would do to farmers and to farmland. with curiosity, wondering whether they've lost their way See, in my community some people might think that entirely? their food just comes from Save-On-Foods or Th rift y I'm puzzled how I could have assumed we live in the Foods, and I wanted to make sure that I as their repre- same part of this great country and see the same bounty sentative understood exactly, because in suburbia we — the unique, startling, stunning beauty and bounty of don't have a lot of farms. We might have our own gar- British Columbia. I thought we shared a similar desire to dens, but we don't have a lot of farms. I wanted to make see government done well, a desire to protect our hard- sure that I was able to impress upon my constituents what won, imperfect democratic heritage by ensuring the es- this would mean. sential public interest, by protecting the ability of our What I learned from these farmers was that they have descendants to have the same opportunities for security, serious concerns about how their operations will be put success and a dignifi ed life. at risk by parcelling up the ALR. Th ey're worried that Th at deep-seated need for security is one of the most there will be an increase in land prices. Inappropriate de- fundamental reasons for government. Th ere's almost velopment will mean losing these lands forever, and their no other purpose for government. Over time, in most ability to use the land through the entire supply chain will representative democracies, security has come to mean a increase their costs — which, of course, will then increase multitude of necessities — protective services, education, food costs, continuing to make life more expensive for all health. In Canada the body politic recognizes that it has British Columbians. a responsibility to ensure the vulnerable are aff orded as More recently with the…. We have a new Minister much dignity as is possible. of Agriculture, and he's saying that he's in the pro- Security in the future and modern world is also going cess of consulting. I remember hearing him here in to take on new meaning, one which the relatively wealthy the House. When pressed about what that means, what and content industrialized world, certainly Canada, has that looks like, he said he's reading e-mails from British yet to recognize. Security is also going to mean protecting Columbians. the most valuable resources that we have as a nation, re- I've certainly been telling my constituents who have sources fundamental to the needs of our very humanity. concerns to send letters to the Premier, to send letters to Th at is our water and our agriculturally productive land. the Minister of Agriculture. At least he's reading them, One day in the not-too-distant future British Columbia which is great, but to him that's consultation, and that's could well become the envy of the world. In a world that not consultation. becomes even one or two degrees warmer we could well Th en, we have the Minister of Agriculture saying he's be the richest nation of all — rich at least in our ability to open. "I'm going to read all these e-mails. I'm going to survive a startling new reality of drought, vicious weather, consult. I may just change the legislation that's being pro- changing land use and the resultant damage to food pro- posed. I'm open to amending it. I'm open to removing it." duction and access to water; rich because the billions of Good on him, because that's his job. His job is to hear people in this world who will suff er drought and starva- from constituents all across this province. I actually sat tion will want what we have, will need what we have and on this side of the House going: "Okay, this is pretty good. could well come to get what we have. We have a minister who is open to hearing what people Indeed, nations who understand what drought and have to say. I'm going to get the people that I know are starvation mean are already making plans to protect worried and say: 'He's a minister who's open to hear- their own citizens, and those plans involve buying our ing what you have to say. Get right on it. You send him land and shipping our production overseas to protect e-mails.'" their own people, their own livestock and their own fu- Th en, fi ve days later the Minister Responsible for Core ture. Th at is a security issue we must come to grips with: Review was saying: "We're just going to keep on going how to protect our own citizens in a drastically diff er- through with this legislation." ent world. Th at is a security issue this provincial govern- [1525] ment is slow to recognize, slow to plan for and slow to One minister says one thing; the other says the exact believe is coming. opposite. Now in my world, before I had gone into local Our own government is making decisions about es- government and I was a family therapist, we'd call this sential resources with no forward-thinking policy plan in crazy-making, when one parent says one thing and the place, with no foresight, without a sense of the demands other parent says another. It's really not good for the chil- the future will place on every piece of agriculturally pro- dren. Certainly, in this case we have one minister saying ductive land in this province. one thing and another minister saying the other thing, It is forcing those plans to take into account critical and it's not good for the electorate. policy decisions that are being made in the absence of Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3791

science, in the absence of common sense, in the absence well-known visionary Ambrose Bierce was obviously of statistics and the absence of an understanding that the thinking of the minister when he defi ned consultation as changing climate is real and that the agriculturally pro- "seeking another's approval of a course already decided ductive lands of this province will be absolutely essential upon," because that is exactly what the Minister for Core to our own survival and essential to the security of our Review did. He recited support that wasn't there and that province and of our nation. didn't back him up. Even worse, it seems the government is only now at- Actually, if the truth were known, Ambrose's Devil's tempting to come up with a food security policy, which, Dictionary was the new title for the Cynic's Word Book, if this bill is adopted, will be policy-making aft er the and that's what this minister and his government have fact, aft er the horse has left the barn, aft er it introduces a created throughout this province: cynicism, a cynicism piece of legislation that is so shortsighted in its goal and so deep that people are turning away from government, so blatantly against the long-term public interest that it from voting and from participation. Th at is the fault of a could well jeopardize the future food security of British government that cares not one whit for what the people Columbia. think, who have underwritten the voters' mantra: "Why It is also a piece of legislation that treats farmers in should we bother? It doesn't make any diff erence." diff erent parts of this province quite diff erently, and it Here we are debating a bill that the sitting govern- is a piece of legislation that will make it even harder for ment has no mandate to introduce. Th e fundamental farmers in zone 1 to work the land, acquire land for fu- changes to the Agricultural Land Commission that are ture generations and see a bright future for their chosen proposed in Bill 24 were not called for by the people, profession. were not tested in the crucible of the last election, nor [1530] are they required to meet any emergent circumstance What are those lands that could well become the most that has occurred since the last election. In a representa- essential and important lands in this province — or could tive democracy, substantial changes to important public become essential if this ridiculous piece of legislation dies policy, legislation or taxes ought to be proposed during the ignoble death it so deserves? Why, they are the very election. Th at is the only way a government can rightful- lands the Minister for Core Review is so anxious to turn ly claim it has a mandate to make fundamental changes into blacktop or little boxes or resorts — the very zone to provincial policy that has been relied upon for years. 2 lands that he has somehow decided are the least pro- How can members on the opposite side support such ductive and that represent little in the way of adding to a massive alteration to four decades of public policy with- the GDP of the province. How insulting to the men and women of this prov- out one word uttered during the election? Th e introduc- ince who take pride in the profession of farming, who tion of massive policy change without one hint, one word feed and nourish us, who have chosen to live on the land of debate during the election. Th ey have obviously learned and to coax it to its potential. How insulting to be told nothing from the HST scandal. It was deceitful then, and it their labour and life's work is so undervalued that the is deceitful now. government of the day wants to change the uses on that precious land. Deputy Speaker: I think the member needs to watch Th at's what's going to happen if this bill is accepted her use of words. by this House. Th e uses on B.C.'s agricultural soil will change. V. Huntington: I beg your pardon? Yes, there are issues the farmers need to have addressed. Complementary businesses should be considered. Homes Deputy Speaker: I said the member needs to watch for the next generation should be considered a possibility her use of words. that could be added to the farm home plate. Poor land should be removed from the reserve. All of these issues V. Huntington: Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. could have been solved by the ALC through consultation Th ere is also no information the government can share with farmers, local governments and associations. which would show that this was a reasoned decision or Consultation isn't what this bill is about. Th is govern- even a plan for an emergent circumstance that warrants ment has lost the ability to trust the people enough to the amendments. On the contrary, the government has consult with them. Why? Because it might not get the refused to provide the public and this Legislature with answer it wants. Th at's why. any rationale whatsoever for these proposed changes. Th e people of B.C. believe they have the right to par- Simply put, very few representatives of this chamber ticipate in major policy shift s that were not part of an and even fewer members of the public actually know election campaign platform, but it's quite obvious that what the government's real agenda is with this bill. It the Minister for Core Review took his very own defi n- claims Bill 24 is intended to improve the ALC and pro- ition of "consultation" from the Devil's Dictionary. Th at tect agricultural land in B.C. 3792 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

Interjections. trying to protect. Look at the pressure on Delta's lands, where pioneer farming families are actually moving out V. Huntington: Perhaps the members should read the of Delta because they can no longer aff ord the land for bill, because it does the opposite of what they purport. their next generation to farm. Even the government is Because it has no coherent, fact-based and public argu- selling the land at market value in Delta — hypocrisy of ment to show how Bill 24 will do this, we can only assess the highest order. its potential impact by analyzing both the content of the Th e zone 2 land changes make a mockery of the ori- bill and the informed public feedback on the proposed ginal mandate of the commission, which was to preserve legislation, feedback which has been universally and agricultural land. It was to support farming on agricul- overwhelmingly negative and which the government re- tural land and to ensure that municipalities and region- fuses to listen to. Taken at face value, Bill 24 would re- al governments accommodated farms and agricultural verse the mandate of the ALC in the north, the Interior uses of land. If this bill passes, any of the previously pro- and the Kootenays by allowing economic and other con- tected farmland in northern B.C., the Interior and the siderations to trump agricultural use. Kootenays — a full 90 percent of the land reserve and [1535] now suddenly christened zone 2 — will slowly disappear It doesn't matter that the minister's amendments try to under the weight of undefi ned economic, cultural and suggest that agriculture will continue to be the primary social values, regional government OCPs and other pre- consideration. The fact is that government is formally scribed considerations. and legally requiring what is supposedly the independent How do you defi ne cultural or social values, and at Agricultural Land Commission to determine whether non- what point do they overrule agricultural needs? Who agricultural uses should be permitted on some of B.C.'s best measures the need — the speculator, the developer, the soils. Slowly but surely, this will open up 90 percent of the regional government that wants a new park? How much good soil in this province to non-agricultural uses, threat- economic value does a project have to provide before ening our food security and driving up the speculative cost good farmland is taken out of the reserve? If the govern- of land until our farmers are driven off it. Th at is what this ment has any idea at all of what "other prescribed con- government is doing. sideration" means, it sure isn't telling the people of B.C. Bill 24 corrupts the appointment process to the Land or the members of this House, who have to vote on this Commission by entrenching the requirements that mem- piece of nonsense. bers of regional panels be resident in the region. It is hard, Obviously in the north, oil and gas development almost impossible, to say no to your neighbour, friend, has been trumping agricultural land for some time. acquaintance or supplier, and saying yes will become the Th ousands and thousands of wellsites, pipeline corri- order of the day. dors, transmission corridors, resource roads, water pits, Th e government says resident appointments will en- refi nery sites and campsites swarm the landscape. Given sure that the panel knows the area, but that isn't what that the industry is the cornerstone of this government's happens, is it? We know that the number of exclusions economic agenda, they can expect that nothing will stop jumped when the government tried this before, and it the industry's growth. wasn't until the panels went back to membership from Th e ALC already has a strong working relationship outside the panel area that exclusion approvals levelled with the Oil and Gas Commission, so what is the bill re- off again. Corruption of a system comes in many forms, sponding to? Is it because rodeos don't fi t into subsoil and infl uence and proximity are among them. rights of the oil and gas industry; because someone said Th e bill also adds regulatory and monitoring require- no, and some of the government members didn't like no, ments that, because we have no idea what they will be, a word that this government no longer seems to tolerate could be used to require that the commission give greater in its growing sense of noblesse oblige? consideration to non-agricultural uses in all of B.C. Too It must be rodeos, because the issue of resident much is left open to regulation, especially the section panelists having all the right knowledge could so easily enabling other prescribed considerations for excluding have been solved by appointing a member of the ALC to lands in zone 2. Deciding, behind closed doors, that the the Oil and Gas Commission, if that was even a problem. B.C. Agriculture Council will be consulted on the de- Rodeos trump agriculture, and the secret is out. velopment of the regulations is simply not good enough. When the government says Bill 24 represents fl exibil- Th is policy shift , and its regulations that will defi ne its ity for farmers, one just has to laugh. As I said earlier, the operation, is of paramount interest to all the people of issues that need modernizing could so easily have been B.C., and all of us deserve to know what is being regu- dealt with by a good process of consultation. Th e farm- lated and how. By opening the door to developers to bid ing community wants the option of building comple- on agricultural land for non-farm uses, this government mentary businesses that assist their revenues. Th ey want is participating in the destruction of the ability of farm- the option of using their land to provide homes for their ing families to aff ord the very land that it's saying it is children. Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3793

[1540] of the ALC, the chair has never, not once, been con- Th ese important issues could be dealt with by con- sulted on any appointment to the commission. Th e gov- sultation and by simple amendments to the regulations ernment has already compromised the independence of and bylaws of local governments. We don't need to open the Agricultural Land Commission in a substantive and up land in only one zone for industrial, commercial and an objectionable manner and has probably comprom- recreational uses beyond the needs of legitimate farm- ised that independence illegally, if the Administrative ing families. Tribunals Act has any standing whatsoever. Despite what government wants us to believe, the land Th e problems with Bill 24 are so numerous that it's dif- that's being threatened is good land. Th e northern region fi cult to keep enumerating them. Perhaps one of the most alone has 72 percent of our class 1 to class 4 farmland — troubling is the quiet little reference to effi ciencies found 72 percent, for heaven's sake. It's some of the best soil in in section 6, those undefi ned performance metrics that the province. add unknown reporting requirements which seem to be Telling us that there is a lot of protected land that tied to the government's desire for core review. shouldn't be in the reserve is disingenuous at best, or at Will the reporting requirements let the government worst is simply ignorant. Th e government knows as well keep tabs how quickly the ALC processes approvals? Will as we do that the ALC was conducting a very thorough, they require applications be processed within certain scientifi cally based review of the ALR boundaries to de- time limits? Will they place emphasis on certain types termine what lands should come out of the land reserve. of applications? We don't need sweeping changes that will open zone 2 It is interesting that the government is invoking all lands to other uses. Th e work was already underway, and these new performance standards without a hint as to the government knew it. how it might support them. Will the government fur- If the government is going to use farm-gate receipts ther increase the ALC funding to help it meet any new to defend its ridiculous machinations, then it should standards, or will it use new benchmarks that will be im- get the numbers right. Th e areas set out in the Stats Can possible to meet, in subsequent eff orts to undermine the census data are not the same as the zones in Bill 24, and work of the ALC? Given the government's attitude to the if the government is going to use numbers to justify its ALC, we can only believe that it will be the latter. policy decisions, I would think they'd want to get those Th ere is so much that can be said about the meaning of numbers right. this bill, its impact on the agriculture in British Columbia How can you make policy decisions that are justifi - and the government's attitude towards one of the fi nest able if you don't use statistics properly? Neither the jobs public policy decisions ever made in this province. Th e data nor the farm-gate receipts information is correct, introduction of the agricultural land reserve, though dif- and it is fairly obvious that the lands in zone 2 are worth fi cult and heartbreaking at the time, is now lauded and more agriculturally than the government is letting on supported by everyone in B.C. — everyone, that is, except and are worthy of dedicated and continued protection the Minister for Core Review and his colleagues and the as farmland. developers whom he is no doubt backing. Th e admonitions that Bill 24 supports the independ- Bill 24 is a bad piece of legislation. It should never see ence of the Land Commission are also disingenuous or, committee. It should never have seen second reading, for more likely, a deliberate doublespeak that hides the true that matter. I've been surprised that members opposite intention of government. Bill 24 purports to protect the have actually stood to defend the bill. appointment process by ensuring that the minister can [1545] now make appointments independent of consultations Rather, I had thought that they would have fought hard with the chair of the ALC. Or as the Minister for Core and long in their caucus room to demand that cabinet Review would say, the bill leaves "no more room for the hoist the legislation and demand that ministers go back chair to monkey with the process" — an unbelievable to the drawing board, consult with the farming commun- statement for a sitting minister to make, especially when ity and with the public, and bring back legislation that the comment bears no relation to reality. is meaningful and supported and that truly strengthens While section 3(c) of Bill 24 implies that appointments the Agricultural Land Commission, the agricultural land will no longer be made in consultation with the chair, the reserve and the farming community that supports both. legal reality is that the existing act is bound by section 3 Instead, they have spoken for a bill that divides this of the Administrative Tribunals Act, which requires that province, creates two tiers of farmers and two tiers of appointments be made following "a merit based process farming, opens farmland to speculation, puts pressure and consultation with the chair." Th e minister doesn't on the price of land and undermines food security as we know whereof he speaks, because this bill does nothing to go forward. Th e government did not obtain an electoral change the legal requirement of process and consultation. mandate to make these policy changes, nor has it made Moreover, and even worse, is the hypocrisy of the en- a public case for why they are necessary. tire section. Since the appointment of the current chair As a consequence, the government must, in accord- 3794 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

ance with the very basic principle of representative across the province? democracy, remove this bill from the order paper and ask Well, to understand that, you have to go back to the the people if the changes are necessary or even wanted. decision that was made back when the Agricultural Land Th at would be the right thing to do, the democratic thing Commission Act in 1973 was adopted. Th at was adopt- to do, and in my mind, it is the only thing to do. ed at the time by the Dave Barrett government. It was adopted at a time, in fact, when decisions were made S. Simpson: I'm pleased to have the opportunity that we needed to protect the integrity of our farmland, to stand and speak to Bill 24, the Agricultural Land the integrity of our agricultural properties. Th e agricul- Commission Amendment Act, 2014. Th is piece of legis- tural industry had to be protected, and food security was lation that has been introduced does a number of things, a compelling and growing concern. Th at's what made it but it really, primarily, has two particularly key critical so important at that time. As a result of that, more than and fundamentally fl awed aspects. 40 years of this. Th e fi rst is to break the agricultural land reserve, es- [1550] sentially, into two zones in the province, the fi rst zone For all of the back-and-forth — and we've seen lots of being zone 1: Vancouver Island, the south coast and the laws come and go in this province over 40 years — this Okanagan, where the commission largely, in that zone, particular piece of legislation, the agricultural land re- continues to prioritize the preservation of agricultural serve, the land commission that facilitates that reserve…. land in its decision-making. Th e integrity of that has, in large part, been sustained for It creates zone 2, and what zone 2 does…. Th at con- 40 years. It's been sustained because it is one of the most tains about 90 percent of the land that's under ALR cover- enduring pieces of legislation and law in the history of age today, and there the commission will be compelled to the province. give equal weight to economic, cultural and social values, It is one of the laws that makes British Columbia the regional planning objectives, and any other prescribed great place it is. It's a law that has fundamentally sus- considerations. tained this province, and when we talk about sustainabil- What you have here is you say that for that zone 2 — ity and climate and environment, food security becomes 90 percent of the land in the ALR — it's wide open now. a compelling issue. It's wide open now. What you have here is a situation Increasingly, as a province that relies on California for that does that. food, relies on other places, we know that that reliance Th e other thing that this bill does is it changes the can't necessarily be sustained. We know about the situa- decision-making structure of the commission. Th e com- tion in California, with increasing droughts. We know mission, and we'll talk a little about this in a while…. about problems elsewhere caused by climate, caused by Th e Liberal government, back a number of years ago, other issues. took what was a provincial commission and attempted We know it becomes even more important that we pro- to break it up into regional panels — didn't make that tect the integrity of food security in this province. And compulsory. Th at system did not work eff ectively, and you cannot protect the integrity of food security in this the chair of the Agricultural Land Commission essential- province if you do not protect the agricultural land and ly drew it all back into a single commission and a single if you do not support the farming communities and in- decision-making body. dustries in this province. What this does now is say that that changes. It says Bill 24 does not do that. Bill 24 takes us in the other that we will go to regional panels, and these panels will direction. Th at's the reality of what we face with Bill 24. be, essentially, Liberal political appointees in six regional As we look at this, we have to look at how this bill came panels. Th ey will become the decision-makers through- about. We know that this piece of fundamental legislation out this province. Th is is fundamentally fl awed. It's a sys- was brought in with almost no consultation with stake- tem that undermines the Agricultural Land Commission holders, with people in the community — almost no con- and the agricultural land reserve in the most fundamen- sultation at all. Th at's why the member for Delta South, tal of ways. who spoke before me, quite wisely said that even if you What you have is a situation where we now have these don't want to kill this bill, which is what we should do, two diff erent zones. Why is this important? Why is it there is no sense in bringing this forward now. important, this question? Why has this piece of legisla- Th ere should at least be some desire to have a discus- tion caused such concern across the province — concern sion with British Columbians before you even contem- with the agricultural community, concern with the farm- plate a piece of legislation like this. I suspect the problem ing community, concern with local government? How the government has is that they know if they open that come that's been the case? How come this piece of legis- box and start to travel this province and start to talk with lation, maybe more so than anything we've dealt with in British Columbians, people in local communities, people this particular session, has raised the fears and concerns who work in the industry, they will hear time aft er time of British Columbians and of people in our communities that Bill 24 is bad legislation. Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3795

It's a bad law, and it belongs in the scrap heap. Th at's cisions, will increase pressure to remove land from the what they'll hear. Th ey don't want to do that because they reserve at a cost to the general good. Agricultural lands know what the result of that will be. produce not just crops but contain wetlands, streams, What do we know about the people who have talked ponds, riparian areas, woodlands, hedgerows and un- about this piece of legislation? We know that the B.C. cultivated grasslands that are either adjacent to or inte- Agriculture Council…. Interestingly, when the bill fi rst gral to farm operations." was introduced, the chair at that moment embraced the We know that, and what the letter tells us is these areas bill. As was said by people on the Agriculture Council, are instrumental in protecting functioning, healthy eco- they embraced it until they read the bill. Th en, aft er they systems, and in many cases these diverse services help read it, they rejected it. boost agricultural production. Th e chair said: "I think we're genuinely afraid that The letter from the 100 academics goes on to say: the changes will trump the well-being of agriculture "Allowing more non-agricultural uses on ALR land and and agricultural land." Th at's what we heard from the the release of more lands from reserves will have the un- Agriculture Council. Th ey are concerned. Th ey are not intended consequence of threatening many important supportive. Th ey do not feel they were consulted. ecosystems and, by extension, many valuable species, Th e minister did talk to them. Th e minister had a day- including species at risk." So the litany of concerns just long meeting or something close to that with them — the continues to grow. Th at's the reality of what Bill 24 brings new Minister of Agriculture. We'll talk a little bit about us. Th at's the reality of this piece of legislation. that consultation process in a minute. But that's what we We continue, also, to see other comments in relation heard from those folks. to this. Th e British Columbia Cattlemen's Association in We also know that you can travel across this province a letter to the Minister of Agriculture on May 7 says: "We and look at regional governments and local governments. fear that these changes will make ranching more vulner- Local governments across this province and regional as- able to other industries and non-farming activities that sociations of local governments across this province have aren't complementary or reversible to agriculture." been adopting resolutions and taking positions that say: Th e letter from the president of the cattlemen's asso- "Stop. Stop Bill 24. Stop what you're doing. At least talk to ciation goes on to say: "It is diffi cult to see what the over- us if you're not prepared to just throw the bill away, which all benefi ts to agriculture will be from Bill 24 and the is what you should do." amendments you introduced this week. Without more But they're not being spoken to. Th ey're not having information about what the benefi ts to agriculture will their issues addressed, and that's a signifi cant concern. be or what the changes will mean to our industry, it is We have them saying this, and of course, they're not alone very diffi cult for our directors to support the bill even in this at all. We have soil scientists across the province with your changes." who have raised their concerns. They haven't asked…. The cattlemen's association Dr. Art Bomke, the professor emeritus in the UBC says: "We kindly request that the minister delay any deci- faculty of land and food systems — pretty smart guy — sion on Bill 24 until further information is provided and understands this issue. What did the professor say? consultation can be had with the farming and ranching [1555] community." "With Bill 24, we will not only lose ground in the literal sense Th ey are asking to talk about the bill. Th ey're not get- but also in the public policy sense. The ALR was established ting that opportunity. Th ey're not getting that opportun- because local and regional authorities could not be relied upon ity at all. What do we see instead? Well, we can go back. to protect our scarce and irreplaceable farmland from non-farm Some will recall that the minister, as he was meeting with development. Th e six-panel system contained within Bill 24 pot- entially takes us right back to the 1973 situation that gave rise to the Agriculture Council…. When the minister was fi rst the establishment of the provincial ALR and the Provincial Land appointed, he stepped out immediately aft er his appoint- Commission in the fi rst place." ment and told us all what we thought we wanted to hear. Th ere is concern across this province about this piece What did the Minister of Agriculture tell us? He said: of legislation. Th ere is concern about where this legisla- "Th e opportunity is everything from amending the bill tion takes us and about what it does and doesn't achieve. to leaving it alone to removing the bill. I haven't landed It receives little support from people in the commun- on any particular recommendation yet because I'm not ity who work in this fi eld. As I said, the B.C. Agriculture fi nished my consultation process." Th at's what the min- Council has raised concerns. We've heard from soil sci- ister said. entists. Members here will know, because some of them, So we all said: "Good. Maybe the minister is going to I'm sure, have seen the letter that was sent to the Premier go out and talk to folks. Maybe he's going to put some that's critical of Bill 24, a letter signed by 100 academics kind of meaningful process in place. Maybe there's go- — biologists, naturalists and other academics. ing to be a conversation with people who are concerned What does that letter say about Bill 24? It says: "Th e about agriculture, who are concerned about this land, bill reduces the ability for science to inform land use de- who are concerned about these issues." We all were pretty 3796 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

hopeful. ALR is more accurate and includes land that is both ca- Of course, the day the minister says that, it's not a day pable and suitable for agricultural use" — that the land later the Minister for Core Review comes out and kind of commission have that authority and the resources to do slaps his colleague down and says: "Am I open to chan- the work. Not that it just be a blind situation, but that ges to the legislation? Th at's really up to cabinet and cau- there be the resources available to do real research, real cus, but I can tell you that government is not interested analysis, produce real evidence, based on some kind of in fundamentally changing or delaying the bill. Th e bill empirical basis that would allow that question to be an- will pass." Th at's what the Minister for Core Review says swered. the next day. "Th at the work of the land commission be repositioned [1600] away from being reactive and focused on applications to So then we all wonder: who is the Minister for a more proactive planning model that would enable it to Agriculture, really? Is it the minister who carries the title, strengthen ties to local government land use planning, or is it the Minister for Core Review? Well, we immedi- deal with emerging issues as they relate to agriculture…." ately hear the next day when we come into this House Not a bad idea. Not a bad idea for the land commission and ask questions, that all of a sudden that extensive con- to be able to engage that discussion. sultation that we were all off ered, that consultation that "Th at the 'encouraging farming' aspect of the land com- was going to be broad and inclusive…. It was going to mission's mandate take a greater prominence so the land leave all of the options on the table so that people could commission can focus its work on farmers, ranchers and comfortably feel that their input would be meaningful. the business of farming." Th at makes sense. Why aren't Th ey would have the opportunity for the input, and it we strengthening the land commission and saying: "Go would be meaningful. out and help farmers and ranchers to do their work, en- Well, that ended up being the Minister of Agriculture courage them, make that industry more dynamic and then essentially saying: "I'm reading my e-mail, and other more eff ective, and don't try to undermine it." But in- than that, we're not going to really change much. But I am stead, Bill 24 clearly undermines it. reading my e-mail." Th at's essentially what the Minister "That the land commission have sufficient funding of Agriculture said. It creates a huge, huge challenge here and resources for compliance enforcement and that its for what we have heard. compliance and enforcement capabilities be enhanced Now, it's not just those folks who are engaged in this. through legislative amendments." Th at would be helpful, We also know that the chair of the Agricultural Land especially aft er these debacles that we hear in the Peace — Commission, Mr. Bullock, raised his own concerns: "I'm people just ignoring rulings and deciding they'll do what not sure if any of our people should be treated diff erent they want to do. Th e land commission needs to have the in one part of the province than they are in another. I teeth and the authority to deal with these matters. But thought equal treatment is how we operated as a society, that is not what we're seeing here. but we'll see." Th at's what the chair of the Agricultural Th ere are a number of other recommendations that Land Commission had to say. were put out by Mr. Bullock in the November 2010 re- It's interesting, because the chair has done some pretty port — not all recommendations that we would necessar- interesting work on this. I'd like to talk about that, be- ily agree with, but it was an important discussion and an cause I think the chair is pretty thoughtful. important dialogue. It was one that would be meaningful. It was one that in fact could be engaged as part of a de- [R. Chouhan in the chair.] bate with the public and the people of British Columbia around how we protect and enhance agricultural land in Back in November of 2010, the chair, Mr. Bullock, British Columbia, how we enhance food security, how we submitted a report to the minister at the time, Review of move forward in a way that makes sense. the Agricultural Land Commission: Moving Forward — [1605] A Strategic Vision of the Agricultural Land Commission Now, it isn't just the folks who understand agricul- for Future Generations. ture who necessarily have done this work — no. In 2010 Now, it's interesting. That report is produced in the Auditor General also did a report. At that point he November, 2010. Th e Liberal government sits on the re- called on the B.C. Liberal government to strengthen the port for a year before they allow it to be released. Why Agricultural Land Commission. Th e report noted: "Th e is that? Probably because a lot of the machinations that commission is challenged to eff ectively preserve agricul- we're seeing now were coming up. But what did the re- tural land and encourage farming in British Columbia." port recommend? What did the chair of the land com- It showed a disturbing pattern of prime agricultural land mission recommend? being excluded from the reserve in the south of the prov- He recommended that the land commission "have suf- ince and being replaced with less fertile land in the north. fi cient funding and resources to enable it to undertake Th at's what it found. targeted reviews of ALR boundaries to ensure that the The Auditor General pointed to the cutting of the Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3797

budget by over 28 percent since 2002. If there was [1610] any meaningful commitment to the Agricultural Land It just makes no sense at all. At a time when we are Commission, to agricultural land, you wouldn't have trying to grapple with those questions — very funda- seen that kind of cut. mental questions from the industry level and from all I quote the report from the Auditor General again. "In levels of government — as to how we ensure that we ad- 2002-2003 the Agricultural Land Commission's budget dress those questions of farming, of agriculture, of food was $2.9 million. Since that time, the budget has de- security, we're introducing and dealing with things like creased. Th e commission's most recent detailed budget Bill 24, which undermines and compromises that situa- submission in November 2008," at that time, "estimated tion. Th at's the situation that we fi nd ourselves in today. that with the 2008-09 budget of $2.4 million, it was oper- Th e time truly has come. We are continuing and will ating at approximately 20 percent," or half a million dol- continue this debate for a number more days as we head lars, "below its minimal requirements to maintain its core into the last dying days of this session over the next business." In 2008, that's what it saw. couple of weeks. What we saw is a pretty tried-and-true trick used by But what I would say to the people who would be this government, which is to just basically strangle pro- watching this, who would be interested in Bill 24, who grams they don't want. Where you don't have the cour- are interested in the integrity of the land reserve, inter- age to just eliminate them, you cut the money out. You ested in the integrity of the land commission, interested take out the resources. You strangle the program in a way in enhancing and protecting food security, interested in that's necessary to be able to do that. Th at's what we saw. protecting those communities that were built on farm- Th at's the situation that we have. ing and agriculture and ranching, is: we will continue Now we have a situation here where pretty much every- to raise our voices here, but it is critical that those folks body we're talking to…. Th e Agriculture Council, local contact their MLAs, particularly their Liberal MLAs, and and regional governments, the chair of the Agricultural demand consultation. Land Commission, citizens and individual farmers Demand a real conversation about this. Demand those across the province, the soil scientists, the academics, MLAs be accountable for this government's action on Bill the Auditor General — group aft er group is raising con- 24. Demand that the minister fulfi l the promise that he cerns about this situation, raising concerns about how made for real consultation. Demand that the minister ac- in fact this bill will aff ect agricultural land and the Land tually put back on the table what he said was on the table Commission in this province. Th at's the problem that we — everything. From withdrawing the bill to changing the see today. Th at's the challenge that we see today. bill, put it all back on the table. You have to ask yourself: why is this happening? Th e Th at's what we want to see. Be very clear. If you're not reality that you have to conclude from this is that the going to throw the bill in the scrap heap, at a minimum…. government is feeling pressure from their friends, from We're apparently coming back in the fall, so take the bill their supporters, from certain aspects of industry to open on the road. Go out and talk to people in communities. the door to allow land to be removed so that other ac- Have a discussion with British Columbians. Consult with tivities can go on. Other activities might be quite legit- British Columbians. Spend a few months. Learn what imate, but are they legitimate on agricultural land in the you will learn. reserve? No, they're not. But that doesn't seem to matter. Bring the bill back here in October and see if maybe It seems to be a case where the decision has been made you, the Liberal caucus, have decided that you might like that in fact it's going to get bled out. Th at's what we're to change a few things in that bill aft er you go talk to your seeing happen today. constituents, aft er you go talk to the stakeholders in this Th e history of the Land Commission is far too import- industry, aft er you go talk to local governments, aft er ant. Th e history of the agricultural land reserve is far too you go talk to regional districts. See what you think then. important. Th ere are fundamental strategies that you fi nd Th at's what I would say to the Liberal caucus. in a province, in a place like this. Th ese become increas- We need to have a conversation. You can say we have ingly important, particularly when we look at the future a situation…. Th e accusation's been made that we're just that is in front of us. trying to protect a piece of legislation from the NDP We know that climate change is real. We know that sus- government of the '70s. If you believe that, if you believe tainability questions are no longer theoretical; they are that's all this is about, then go out and talk to British issues we need to address today. We need to put in place Columbians. sustainability initiatives today. We know that questions Most British Columbians probably couldn't tell you like food security are not academic questions. Th ey are what the history of the land commission is, but they can real questions for people every day. Th e quality, the quan- tell you that it works. Th ey probably couldn't tell you tity, the price of food — all fundamental questions. Th ey about how the land reserve got put in place, but they are all questions that we need to get our heads around. know it's a good idea. Th ey inherently know that the de- It makes no sense. cision to protect agricultural land, to protect farming, to 3798 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

protect those communities — they know that's important. champion at a provincial show a few years ago. Th ey're Th ey would also tell you what Mr. Bullock said in his very good stock. report from 2010: support those industries. Figure out But for true disclosure, I also want to make it clear how to invest in encouraging farming and agriculture; that we also live on ALR land. It's in the Kootenays, in how you encourage more people, young people, to look the proposed zone 2. I think it would be interesting just at it as a legitimate option as a way to take care of their to have the discussion in the House someday on how families. many MLAs actually do live on ALR land and farm it — Th at's what we need now. We need an innovative strat- actually farm it. Or do they want to develop it? Maybe egy that talks about the future of farming and the future there might be some potential confl ict of interest in the of agriculture, not a strategy that talks about how you tear House. I'm not sure, but I just want to disclose up front the pieces away, about how you get a little land out here that we live on ALR land. and get a little land out there. Th ere's no upside in this; I really love our lifestyle. I wasn't a country girl. I never there is no upside at all. spent any time on a farm, and suddenly I was fully im- As we move forward on this bill…. Sadly, I believe we mersed in raising cattle, learning about breeding, calving are going to move forward, because it's pretty clear to me in the middle of cold January nights, saving calves' lives. that the commitments that the Minister of Agriculture Most of the time I was alone. It always seemed to hap- made when he fi rst got his new portfolio lasted about a pen that whenever something went wrong, Ed, my hus- day. Th at's pretty good by Liberal standards. Th ey lasted band, was away. Quite oft en he was down here, working a day before they changed their position. Not bad. But down here. they're now compromised. I know there was one time when…. It's important We've seen times when this Liberal government has that your calves live, when you're calving. One night in been forced to reverse itself on positions. When that hap- the middle of the night, of course, they go calving. It's pens is when the public and stakeholders get to Liberal a breach birth. If you don't know what that is, the calf MLAs, get to the back benchand to those caucus mem- is coming backwards. You have your arms immersed bers, and they come back to the Premier and the cabinet deep inside the cow to see where calf is, and you fi nd out and the minister and say: "Wait a minute. Th is has got it's coming backwards. I'm sure the Minister of Health to stop. We're being told loud and clear that it's time to would understand that well — for another reason. stop. It's time to send Bill 24 off to its fi nal resting place. Th ere I was with my hands immersed up there, think- It's time to have a real conversation about agriculture. It's ing: "Oh my gosh. I've got to get the calf out." I called our time to try to fi x this industry. It's time to make this in- oldest son. He came to help. We managed to the calf out, dustry grow. Th en we will be better off ." but the calf was drowning in the birthing fl uid, because Sadly, that's not happening today, but I believe that if it was coming out backwards. What do you do? the public steps up and raises their voices, that poten- I'm sure, again, the Minister of Health would have had tial is there. a brilliant idea how to save this calf's life, but I just fol- [1615] lowed instinct, got down on my hands and knees, started We will stand up and raise our voices on this side. Th e sucking the birthing fl uid out of this little calf's nose and public will raise their voices. Maybe, just maybe, this time spitting it out. And it lived. It got up. We got it up and got the Liberal government will hear. Th ey will understand it living. I thought: "If I didn't ensure that calf lived, my they've gone too far. Th ey will back off . Th ey will remove husband would've killed me." I just wanted to make sure. this bill, and we will all be the better for it. I'm truly hope- It got up, and I looked over at our son. He was over in the ful that that's what will occur. I'm hoping the people of corner of the barn being sick. I thought: "Okay, you're not British Columbia will change the government's mind by going to be the farmer in the family." It's just something speaking out and saying: "Stop Bill 24." It's bad for British that we have to go through as farmers. Columbia. It's bad for our families. It's bad for our com- We're living on agricultural land, land that's near and munities. It's time for it to go. We'll all be better off . dear to us. It's land that I feel, for our family, has defi ned us as a family. We all are really concerned — my hus- K. Conroy: I rise, too, to speak against this bill, Bill 24, band and I are concerned; our families are concerned; the Agricultural Land Commission Amendment Act. I our kids are concerned — about what Bill 24 could do want to start, fi rst of all, with my roots in agriculture. I to farmers in this province, what it could do to families wasn't raised on a farm, but I married a farmer and have who are trying to raise cattle or trying to raise anything, been farming a family farm for the past 36 years. We to any farming family. raise purebred polled Hereford cattle, and I want to ex- I want to share a little bit of our Kootenay cred, so to plain that polled means they're genetically dehorned — speak. Th ere are four of us MLAs from the Kootenays. no horns. Great cattle; excellent beef. Th ey're breeding I really want to talk about the fact that I do have…. stock, very gentle — great temperament. Our cattle have Th ere's an agricultural component when you live in the actually won awards. One of our bulls was a supreme Kootenays, in the so-called zone 2 land where we're told Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3799 we don't have any land that's decent or that we can't grow number of things, but one thing he did say is that young food on it. I think that was the quote. people can't get involved in farming anymore, and there's My husband's maternal grandfather was actually born a real lack of young people in farming. I think a few of in Slocan City, and his grandmother Nell immigrated to the other members have said that, and they had statis- Winlaw from England via Australia when she was the tics. Well, I would say they're inaccurate in where they're ripe old age of four. She immigrated with her parents to getting their facts from. Th ey only need to come to the a chicken farm in Winlaw. Sight unseen they bought a Kootenays to see that's just not the case. Many of the chicken farm. Th ey arrived to fi nd an acreage — a rock letters and e-mails I got are from young people in the pile, basically — with a locked shack and no chickens, but Kootenays who are trying to make a living, making a go they persevered. Th ey farmed that land. Well, actually, his of it farming and doing fairly well. great-gran did, because his great-grandfather died short- One such farmer is Andrew Bennett. He's from ly aft er they arrived, leaving her to raise the fi ve kids on Rossland. He was one of the very fi rst farmers to voice this farm. She managed to make a go of it. his concerns about Bill 24. It was back at the beginning [1620] of April right aft er the bill was sent. He's 34 years old, His grandparents met and fell in love, and proceeded works on a farm with his wife and his son. Th ey're build- to have two children. One was of them was Irene, Ed's ing a growing business, and they're selling food. Th ey mother. Th ey established themselves in Robson and ac- don't have the fi nances to own their own farmland, so tually built a dairy there. Th e dairy was on the land that they operate entirely on leased parcels. I want to quote a was fl ooded when the Keenleyside dam was built. Th ey part of his letter where he's talking about Bill 24. He says: operated a dairy for years, and they ran a pasteurizing "We small, local farmers distinguish ourselves by off ering much plant in Castlegar. higher quality produce — vegetables and various meats, in my case — with more nutrients, more fl avour, more humane livestock Grampa Roy was the milkman in town. He deliv- management, better soil management, quicker turnaround, hap- ered milk from the '30s through the '50s all through the pier employees, and so on. We also add vibrancy and resilience to Robson and Castlegar area. Th ey were a well-known agri- our local economy. cultural family in the Kootenay area. "Perhaps what many fail to realize is that our farm and the many My father-in-law was actually born in Cranbrook. He's other young farms just now sprouting all over the countryside are the foundation of our future economy. Our local food economy Ed Conroy Sr. — or Fast Ed, as they call him. Th ey refer guarantees to bring long-term prosperity by not only keeping us to my husband as Slow Ed, but we won't go there. Th at fed but by keeping currency in local circulation. Everyone needs has nothing do with Bill 24. to eat, and right now more than 95 percent of the $25 billion B.C. Fast Ed had numerous jobs in the Kootenays, but he consumers spend annually on food leaves the province. We're bleeding money, and there's no need to bleed. ended up in the '40s working as a farmhand on the dairy "I can grow almost everything we need right here, right now. farm. Here's the sweet part of the story. Th e farmhand We can keep at least $10 billion in B.C. very fast if the govern- fell in love with the beautiful farmer's daughter, and they ment conspired with us instead of against us. Imagine the impacts. were married in 1945. Ed, my husband, was born in '46 in "Look at my customers. All of them are professionals, many Rossland. Shortly aft er being born, they moved back, and working out of province or out of country, bringing money to my small town in the Kootenays. It's my job and the job of other they lived on the dairy farm for years until they fi nally local businesspeople to keep that money going round and round sold it to the Frenelli family in the '50s. He kept the pas- right here in B.C. teurizing plant, kept delivering milk to the community, [1625] so farming is in Ed's blood, and now it's in mine. "Your ALR proposal is a disaster waiting to happen. My farm I know that some of the members have commented depends on the well-to-do folks who have bought farmland for an estate but with no plans or knowledge for how to use it. Not be- about how diffi cult it can be to farm. You're right. It is ing able to develop on it ensures that they are willing to cooperate diffi cult to farm. Bill 24 makes it more diffi cult, as far with farmers such as myself. Of course they would like to develop as I can see, not easier to farm. I know we know a lot it. Th ey would make more money. of people that farm, and some have jobs off the farm to "If you allow them building and subdivision rights, will they be support the farm, and that works. I know people — we willing to cooperate with me and the legion of up-and-coming young farmers who I collaborate with and mentor every day? No, have cattle partners — who have huge spreads on the and farmers like me all over the province will lose any chance we Prairies, on the Lower Mainland. One of the spouses ever had of owning a farm because farmland will not only crumble works off the farm. into postage stamps, but prices will skyrocket. More and more now, you see families and young "Your Bill 24 is not a long-term proposition. Even the faintest notion of a possibility of development, like Bill 24 threatens with people who are actually working on the farm and making its two-tiered approach to ALR, directly impacts my ability to lease ends meet and making a good, decent living. It's frustrat- land, grow amazing food and sell it for reasonable prices despite ing, I know, for young people. We've gotten numerous let- heavy competition from a global market. ters, as have both sides of the House. We know, because "My farm also depends on being able to secure farm status for they're copied to everybody. these same wealthy landowners. It's my way of compensating them for the use of their land — by lowering their taxes — without hav- When people like the member for Kootenay East re- ing to incur an expense that cuts into my already slim margins. ferred to…. Well, the member for Kootenay East said a Between the ALR and farm status assessments, that is about all 3800 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

the government has ever done for me and others who, despite the culture, to make a living in agriculture. challenges, continue to work hard to ensure food security, local I mean, I could stand here for 30 minutes and read employment and a strengthened local economy. off every one of those felfi es that they posted. Th ere are "Th e reality is that B.C. and federal governments make my life harder, loading small producers with unreasonable restrictions so many of them. But I suggest you go to the website and bureaucracy. We get nothing comparable to the heft y hand- yourself — youngagrarians.org — and look at all of the outs and tax breaks large industrial farmers receive. Th e ALR and pictures of the young farmers in this province who are farm status are all the government has ever done for us, and now against Bill 24 because it goes against everything they you'd like to start eroding that too? Shame on you. "You risk the future of all our children for your political gain need to ensure that they have successful farms. and the fi nancial greed of the minority you serve in the name of We subdivided a few years ago. We subdivided, but we democracy. Shame on you." didn't sell off our land. We actually added in to our farm. His letter resonated with me and with so many more We bought a piece of our neighbour's land, and we kept people across the province and in our region. To think the neighbour's land at the size so that it could be a small that young people aren't getting into farming is not only farm — they have horses — and it meets the regulations. a ridiculous comment, it's disrespectful of the so many But it made our farm that much more viable. young people who are doing just that and who are speak- [1630] ing out against this Bill 24. We also did sell a piece. We had another 50 acres up In March of this year the Young Agrarians held their the road, and we sold it to our son, who is very interested fi rst Kootenay-wide gathering for young farmers. Now, in maintaining it as agricultural land. He wants to keep it the Young Agrarians is a B.C.-based network that is in the ALR, and he's interested in farming on it one day. growing the next generation of Canadian farmers. Th ey Could he have bought 50 acres of really fi rst-class land harness the power of the media and the Internet and if it had not been in the ALR? No. He couldn't have af- bring people together in real time. Th ey connect thou- forded it. But the ALR ensures that it stays aff ordable land sands of young farmers, food producers, food and agri- that future farmers can buy. cultural advocates, and friends. Young farmers often He's actually started his herd, so he wants…. Someday end up working in isolation, so this is a chance to make he will come back and farm this land. He's started his connections to people, resources, market opportunities, herd, his small herd. He's just got his fi rst cow, which had funding programs and more. a calf, actually lives on the family farm. Someday he's go- Th anks to funding from the Columbia Basin Trust, two ing to add to that. beginning farmers — they're from the Creston Valley — I think the excitement for him was when his cow had are now coordinators for the Kootenays. Th ey work to her fi rst calf. We e-mailed him, and I said: "You're a father. connect Kootenay young agrarians with each other and You've had a son." He was in a meeting in Los Angeles with resources, opportunities, groups and projects that and got all excited. Th e people working with him said: can support them. Th ey use the Young Agrarians' social "You've had a son?" He said: "Oh no, no." Th ey got wor- media outlets to showcase Kootenay farming and food ried that he wasn't with the mother of the son when it production. was being born, and he explained. He said: "No, no, it's a The event in April brought together these farmers, cow." Well, he got in trouble for that. food producers and homesteaders, plus all of the re- Anyway, he's very much committed to farming and gion's major food and farming initiatives. Th ey shared will one day come back. Th e land is being utilized now; their stories, took part in workshops, demonstrated it's been leased as a farm. He will one day make it his farm tools, discussed issues and networked. Th e workshops permanently that he will live on. included pathways into farming, working with retailers Could that happen if Bill 24 passes? Could that happen and restaurants, selling surplus and value-adding on the for future farmers, young farmers in our Kootenay area? homestead, season extension, permaculture, profi ts and No. I think what would happen is you'd see developers co-marketing. come in, speculators who'll come in and subdivide the Th ere are Young Agrarian groups all across our prov- land, not future farmers. Th at's a real concern. ince. Th ey have an excellent website and are again proof We can have another home on our land. We know that. that young people are defi nitely into or are getting into People have complained, saying, "Oh, we couldn't get an- farming. Many are speaking out about the consequences other home," but ALR allows that, the ALC allows that, of Bill 24 and what it'll bring to their opportunity to be and your regional district allows that. You can have two successful farmers. homes on a family farm. We know that we want to keep Many have posted what they're calling…. Th ey're pic- the farm in our family, so that's something our kids are tures, and they're calling them felfi es, which is a farm- all thinking about — if someday we might have another er selfi e. All of them have signs. Th ere are many, many home on our land. of them — images that get this message out that young It's so healthy for kids and for families to know we can farmers are against Bill 24. Th ey're against what it does grow our own food. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to them, the potential for them to actually stay in agri- to watch my grandkids playing outside and running to Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3801

the garden wanting to eat carrots or peas or cucumbers ried on, had a great holiday weekend. — not into the house, not wanting cookies or chips. Th ey Except she went back to school in Oak Bay, and the run to the garden because they love what they can get in teacher said: "Let's share stories of what you did on the garden. Th ey love the food there, and they consider Th anksgiving weekend." Daira quickly put up her hand, it a real treat. wanted to tell her story and started to tell her story. Th e I know eating the fi rst cucumber of the year has be- teacher got a little upset and said, "Oh, Daira. I'm not sure come like a rite of passage in our family. It always goes if that's an appropriate story to share with the kids," be- to my husband. A few years ago we gave four-year-old cause she got very detailed. Daira looked up at the teacher Aydenn the first cucumber and said: "Run and find and said: "Ms. Friendly, meat doesn't grow in Safeway." grandpa. He wants this." Grandpa came down a little bit And with that, she was allowed to fi nish telling her story, later with a smile on his face. He'd gotten a little stub of and all the kids understood that meat grows on grandpa's a cucumber. Aydenn explained to us: "You didn't say I farm and it doesn't grow in Safeway. couldn't eat it." She was kind of shocked that she had to I just think that's so incredibly important. Kids have to share the fi rst cucumber. learn that just because they can go to Th rift y's or Safeway I want other families to see this joy, to understand the and buy it, it doesn't mean it grows there. Some farmer is experience of eating those fi rst tomatoes and cucum- actually growing the meat; they've grown the vegetables. bers and to snack on fresh fruit. We can do that in the I think this bill will deny children the very opportunity Kootenays. We can do that in most parts of this province, to learn that, to go to farms to learn — especially in rural and I think that it's really important that we give fam- parts of B.C., like the Kootenays or northern B.C., where ilies the opportunity to do that. We want our kids to eat there's a lot of farming that happens. What will happen if healthy. Th ere are so many young families today who are this bill is implemented and we start to lose agricultural trying to ensure kids are doing that, and they respect and land? Th e agricultural land that we have will be lost if we want local food grown by local farmers. have developers and speculators coming in. We can do that. We know we can. We just have to It concerns me, because I think there's a lot of mis- go to any part of this province and see the number of information about the ALR and the ALC, the Agricultural farmers markets that are happening across the province. Land Commission, about what's been done in the Every Saturday, Sunday, in all parts of the province you Kootenays. If one listened to the people that are pushing see farmers markets with all kinds of food grown locally. this bill, one would think that no land ever got removed People are buying it. In our area there are three or four from the agricultural land reserve in the Kootenays, of them every Saturday and Sunday. Not only are they never. In fact, the reality is that 72 percent of the appli- selling fresh fruits and vegetables that they grow; they're cations to the ALC have actually been approved — that's selling meat, selling all kinds of things that are all local. from 2006 to 2012 — and only 27 percent were rejected. Talk about a 100-mile diet. Of that 27 percent, it hasn't been confi rmed but a number I think one of the best examples I know of why it's so of those have gone back, have been resubmitted and then important for kids to understand where food comes is been approved. So that number is even larger. what happened when our oldest granddaughter lived in Th ere is an opportunity in our area. Th ere are very few Victoria here. She was going to school in Oak Bay, and times when the land has been rejected — and primarily they came home for Th anksgiving. for good reason. Th e amount of actual good-quality land Th ey come home to the family farm for Th anksgiving is diffi cult. We have not bad land, but it's not grade 1 land. weekend, and we were slaughtering that weekend. She I think it's grade 4, but it's because there are rocks on our was six at the time, and I had said: "Well, Daira, you're land. We've reclaimed a lot of the land to make it into a not going to be watching this. We're slaughtering." She pasture so that we have more pasture land. You can do said: "No, I want to watch it." We explained what was that. It takes work, but you can make good agricultural- going to happen. Th e cow was going to die; it was go- quality land in our area. ing to be slaughtered. She listened intently to what was When you look at the…. It was 660 applications that going to happen, and she turned to her dad and said: "I were received by the Agricultural Land Commission in understand, Dad. We're all going to die someday. I want our area. It's obvious the commission…. Because it's an to watch this." independent body, it's obvious they understand what [1635] good agricultural land is and what isn't. Th ey know what I thought: "Okay, fi ne. She can go watch it." So off she constitutes that land, so they've done the work to make went to watch this process, which is a process that hap- sure that the good land isn't taken out of the agricultural pens on farms all across the province, and she got quite land reserve, that they work with the farmers, with the excited about it. She came in and gave me a detailed de- families. scription of everything that happened and got to carry Now, there's a debate on whether or not…. Who has in the organs and show me what they were. She was very, control of this bill? Th ere's some debate around whether very excited about it. We thought nothing of it. We car- it's the minister of core review, the member for Kootenay 3802 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

East, or the new Minister of Agriculture. I respect the support for the bill in the Peace region." new Minister of Agriculture. I've worked with him quite a Th e people from the Peace region are saying: "Th at's bit since I've been elected, primarily around health issues not quite true. I think it's inappropriate to slam the fi st on and on the Standing Committee on Health. I think he the table and say: 'Th is is the way it is.' Let's talk about it." was genuinely…. I think he was earnest in his endeavour She said that ideally, consultation should happen much to want to consult with people. Unfortunately, for what- more broadly than just with selected members of agri- ever reason, he was shut down, but he knows people out cultural groups. "Some open public meetings might be here in the province want to be consulted. the way to go." Th is is from a member of the Peace River Th e B.C. Cattlemen's Association — the member for regional district. Kootenay East was saying: "Oh no. Th ey support this Th ey're really concerned. Th ey're concerned about the bill 100 percent." Well, they don't. I mean, we've got two-tier system. One member feels that the northern re- this letter saying that they fear these changes will make gions are being treated like second-class citizens: "I mean, ranching more vulnerable to other industries and non- you either have a single tier, or you don't have a tier." He farming activities that aren't complementary or revers- thinks it's wrong. ible to agriculture. I think that these people's voices need to be heard, be- "It's diffi cult to see what the overall benefi ts to agriculture will cause we're hearing inaccuracies here in the House by be from Bill 24 and the amendments you introduced this week. saying that everybody in Peace River supports it. Th at's Without more information about what the benefi ts to agriculture just not accurate. It's just not accurate, and I think we will be or what the changes will mean to our industry, it is very dif- fi cult for our directors to support the bill even with your changes. need to make sure that those voices are heard here and We kindly request that the minister delay any decision on Bill 24 that people understand that this is not what the member until further information is provided and consultation can be had is telling us, because it's just inaccurate. with the farming and ranching community." It's interesting, because the member for Kootenay [1640] East…. I heard him when he gave his response. He said Now, this is from the B.C. Cattlemen's Association. It that he doesn't have the kind of power to implement this was announced that they were very supportive — and bill, to circumvent the process, not to allow the Minister they're not. That's part of the problem with this bill. of Agriculture to do what he wants to do. People want to be consulted. Th ey want you to come He was quoted in an interview as saying he'd decided and say: "Th is is how it will aff ect us or not aff ect us." I to change the ALR because he had been — I can't use the think it's really important that people are listened to, that language in the House, so I'll just say "beep" — "listen- people like the B.C. Cattlemen's Association are listened ing to his constituents for 13 beeping years. Th is is what to, or, in our own region, the Association of Kootenay they want me to do, so I get really upset when people and Boundary Local Governments. say that this is something other than what it is." If that Th ey passed a motion at their recent local government doesn't say to me that the member for Kootenay East is meetings asking that this bill not go ahead. Th ey're send- actually driving this, I don't know what does. If he's con- ing a letter to a number of diff erent ministers requesting cerned about his constituents for 13 beeping years, talk- that the provincial government undertake consultation ing to him about this, what about his other constituents? with the public, local governments, the Union of B.C. We got letters from people in Kootenay East who don't Municipalities and aff ected parties on the proposed two- agree with their MLA, who have been longtime support- zone approach to the ALR and that Bill 24 not be brought ers of their MLA. Th ey don't agree with him. Th ey're life- into force until such consultation is complete. long agriculture advocates and people with family farms. Here again, local governments, representatives from Th ey're just really concerned, and they're wondering who the entire Kootenays — from every community in the this member is listening to. Kootenays, east and west, represented here — are all vot- It doesn't make sense. It's just so hard to believe that ing unanimously. It's carried, to support this resolution, a bill like this, with such far-reaching consequences in to ensure that this is the…. It's a real concern. I was going this province — for farmers in this province and across through the resolutions, and this just stuck. the entire province — could be implemented because an Th e other one that kind of struck me was — well, it has MLA is listening to some of his constituents. nothing to do with Bill 24, Mr. Speaker — that the people [1645] from AKBLG also think that the government shouldn't When you see the B.C. Association of Farmers Markets give money to a Jumbo resort municipality that has no ask their members to write and ask the minister — the people in it. I thought that was an interesting motion, too, real Minister of Agriculture — to follow through on his but that has nothing to do with Bill 24, for the record. promise of meaningful consultation…. Even the Peace River regional district…. Th e Peace Th e Horse Council of B.C., the horse owners council, River, where the Minister for Core Review has been quot- is asking their members to complete a survey of ques- ed as saying that the bill is going to go through and there tions so that they can take that information to the min- was tremendous support. Th at's a quote — "tremendous ister. But they're not going to get the consultation done Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3803

before this bill gets rammed through, so how are their Agricultural Land Commission as they were conceived voices going to be heard? 40 years ago, has not ended. Th at has not been the call I wonder how members from Oliver and Comox and from the farming community — from small farmers, Peace River North can go home and face their constitu- from large, from the ranching community. No one has ents about this bill when we're getting letters from their asked for this. Bill 24 comes as a blind side to the people constituents. Th ey don't want to see this bill passed. I ask of British Columbia, and I would also submit not just to those members on the other side of the House who repre- the farmers of British Columbia, the ranchers of British sent those areas: how are you representing your people? Columbia. Th ere are municipalities, and there are individuals, or- I know there's been some attempt made by some ganizations. Th ey do not want to see this bill passed. Liberal members to try to divide that saying: "Well, some I ask: what is the rush? Why is this being rammed of the members on this side that are speaking — they've through? never been to the Peace River, or they've never been to regions…. Th ey haven't been involved in farming." I do S. Fraser: I rise to take my place in the debate on not believe that that's even germane to the argument. second reading of Bill 24, Agricultural Land Commission [1650] Amendment Act, 2014. It's only seven pages long. We all need food. Th e understanding of food security I've been doing this job as MLA for nine years now, in this province does not require us to be farmers. Bill initially in 2005 elected as the member for Alberni- 24 is making massive moves in the wrong direction to Qualicum. Aft er the changes to the boundaries in 2009 the food security of this province and to the very abil- prior to the election, it's now Alberni–Pacifi c Rim. I have ity of the land to sustain us in the future, and it's going never seen a bill that scared me more in that nine-year to become more and more necessary. It's also putting in period. place changes which will make it diffi cult or impossible I am also very, very concerned that it appears that for the next generation of farmers to come forward and the Liberal members are fi nished voicing their concerns take their part in farming and agriculture in this province. on Bill 24 in this second reading. Th ere were only nine Th ere are many young people that I've spoken with in Liberal members that spoke, and the ones I heard spoke Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, in other places, too, on Vancouver far less than their allotted time. Th is is of great concern Island and across the province — young people wanting to those watching, because it appears that the fi x is in on to get into growing stuff and being part of that solution Bill 24 — that the decisions have been made without the for food security in the future. But it's expensive. With consultation that was required to make such draconian the agricultural land reserve, of course, one of the great changes to an institution, if you will. benefi ts of that has been historically to keep the land It's 40 years, four decades, that the Agricultural Land more aff ordable. Commission and the agricultural land reserve have been Bill 24 will change all that. By opening up other uses, in place in this province. To this day it is held up as an ex- other than agricultural uses, for land within the agricul- ample to the rest of the country, by the rest of the country, tural land reserve, it means that that land will be specu- and the rest of the world when it comes to dealing with lated on. Indeed, there are reports that prices are rising issues of food security and recognizing the foresight that in diff erent parts of the province already because of the 40 years ago, what came into play in bringing about the anticipation of land being able to be fl ipped, if you will, agricultural land reserve. unfettered by the agricultural land reserve restrictions. Indeed, if it wasn't for the agricultural land reserve We've all, as MLAs, seen that pressure even with the and the Agricultural Land Commission 40 years ago, we agricultural land reserve. It's only because of the reserve would probably not have the agricultural land left in the being in place that we do have a lot of our farmland left . Lower Mainland, the Fraser Valley. Th e pressures of de- Th ose pressures are always there, but the premises and velopment would have overtaken any concern for food the makeup of the agricultural land reserve and the com- security. Th ose pressures exist today, and I would submit mission themselves have been a great deterrent towards that the only reason we do not have a lot of the Fraser that sort of land speculation that has occurred. Valley completely urbanized at the expense of that most Indeed, people are still buying agricultural land re- valuable of farmland was because and is because of the serve land and hoping to have an application come for- agricultural land reserve. ward that will be successful. Some of these people have I would submit that also is the case in other parts of no intention of farming this land. Th ey're hoping to be the province. Th e Okanagan and the huge benefi t that able to turn it over into other uses — subdivisions, that the fruit-growing and grape-growing has to the economy sort of thing — that have nothing to do with agriculture of this province — none of that would have happened if or food security. the agricultural land reserve and the Agricultural Land Th ere's no easier way to make money than to purchase Commission had not been in place. land for the prices that are available, the lower prices that Th e time for that, the agricultural land reserve and the are set in the agricultural land reserve, and then to be 3804 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

able to fl ip that land once it's out of the land reserve. It's provincial ALR lands, the commission will be compelled an immediate moneymaker. to give equal status, equal weight, to economic, cultural So there is that huge pressure on all of our agricul- and social values, regional planning objectives and any tural land in the province to get land out for the quick — and the quote is scary — "other prescribed considera- buck. Th e quick buck, as we all know — most of us know; tions" yet to be determined. some of us know — is short-term thinking that can lead Th e changes mean that land exclusion applications out- to bad decision-making. Th e worst part of that is that side of the Island, the south coast and the Okanagan will decision-making is at the expense of future generations. be much more likely to succeed. Th at's the most obvious Th at's where the agricultural land reserve 40 years ago problem with and the most prominent feature of Bill 24 was prescient. — creating a two-tiered agricultural system in the prov- I wouldn't suggest that those involved in the cre- ince out of the agricultural reserve. ation of the agricultural land reserve in 1973, and the Bill 24 also shift s decision-making on key ALR deci- Agricultural Land Commission, were thinking necessar- sions, such as land exclusions, away from the provincial ily of climate change, but for anyone who's been follow- commission, which has managed the agricultural land ing the news for the last several years…. reserve carefully for 40 years, and turns it over to hand- Some of the major agricultural areas, the regions that picked political appointees in the form of six regional we rely on here in B.C. to get our food — California sticks panels. out in my mind — are going through massive changes, Now, I don't mean to digress, but I think that this is changes where almond farms, massive farms that are pro- germane to the discussion. How does that fi t in with ducing a product which is, of course, a huge economic the mandate of core review? How did the Minister generator for California, the taxpayers of California and Responsible for Core Review come about with such chan- the economy of California, are being told that they will ges? Indeed, arguably, creating political bodies, political no longer get water because a decision has to be made appointees on panels in six regional areas, will increase on whether water goes to agriculture use or to the city of the bureaucracy and will actually increase the costs of Fresno for drinking water. the commission. Th at seems to me to be contrary to the [1655] mandate of the core review. So the decisions are being made now and have been I believe that the core review is being used as an ex- made over the last year that are basically shutting down cuse to do what some senior members of cabinet have agricultural operations that have been essential in grow- been wanting to do for a long time, and it's to help their ing the economy of that state, California. friends get signifi cant value from their land where they Some still argue about the causes of climate change, should not be — allowing friends to be able to make a lot global warming, but no one can deny that climate change of money by a quick turnover of agricultural land reserve, is happening and that the ability for us to get food from all at the expense of future generations. outside is being reduced. Th e cost of that food from out- Other changes. It provides for cabinet to appoint six side of the province and outside of the country is going vice-chairs, each of whom must be a resident of the area up now, and that won't stop. involved in diff erent panel regions, and provides for the Th e need for the people of British Columbia, for future minister to appoint additional members of the commis- generations of British Columbians to be able to provide sion. their own food, grow their own food, raise their own food [1700] is essential, arguably, for the survival of this province and It's essentially made the agricultural land reserve a future generations — or the quality of life or the ability creature of cabinet as opposed to being, as it has always to eat healthy for future generations. functioned, an arm's-length, independent body. We as Th at is at stake right now with Bill 24. Th at is why I MLAs all get this sometimes. We all get pressure on us to believe it is the scariest thing I have seen since I have help somebody remove land from the agricultural land been a sitting MLA — or for that matter, a standing reserve. I tell my constituents that…. I explain and allow MLA, as I am now in this House. In nine years nothing them the information that they need to address the ap- has eclipsed this. peals process within the Agricultural Land Commission, Bill 24, for those who are just tuning in to this de- if they indeed have been trying to not get the land out bate, contains a division of the provincial ALR land into of the reserve. two zones with two diff erent sets of guiding principles. That's as far as it goes. It's as far as it should go. In zone 1 — Vancouver Island, the south coast and the Politicians should not have a hand in these decisions. Okanagan — the commission will continue to priori- Th is is about food security. It's not about one party or tize the preservation of agricultural land when making the other. It's about the long-term survival of our abil- its decisions, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I will ity for the land to support agriculture in the province come back to that. of British Columbia. Bill 24 fundamentally changes that. In zone 2, which contains the remaining 90 percent of I represent the constituency of Alberni–Pacifi c Rim. Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3805

There is significant agriculture in my constituency — and is meant for the long term." parts of my constituency. Some of my constituency is He's a very eloquent young man. coastal temperate rainforest, so we're not talking there, "I am 21, and I've chosen a future in agriculture. I believe that but certainly the Alberni Valley is a fertile valley for agri- the ALR is vitally important to agriculture in this province. Th e ALR needs to be strengthened, not ended. With Bill 24, we are culture. It is producing a lot of food. It's producing wine. going backwards. Th is backwards step is more about short-term Th ere are ranchers. Th ere are water buff alo. Th ere are economic gains. all types of agriculture happening in the Alberni Valley. "I am not trying to be disrespectful, but what this government Over the hump on Highway 4, towards the east side of seems to be doing is without vision or knowledge of the real issues the Island, the Coombs-Errington area is a farming area in agriculture. Allowing more uses drives up land prices and makes it harder for the people that work on the land or want to start farm- — small farms, the backbone of agriculture and food se- ing to make a living. curity in the province and in the world. I'll touch on that "Should we not be looking at strengthening and protecting the a bit later. Th e people, the farmers — all of them that I've land vital to a 'real' farmer? Once the land is altered, it cannot be talked about are fearful of what this government is do- undone, and the future in farming for my generation is lost. ing with Bill 24. "I played junior hockey in Dawson Creek and travelled through- out the United States. What I saw was investment by the American I spoke to a rancher in the Alberni Valley last week. I and state governments in agriculture. It is apparent while travel- think he got it right. He said capacity-building and infra- ling through this province that the investments in agriculture structure are what we need, not enabling other uses. He's are lacking. It is very easy to say that you can't make a living off got it right. a piece of land. We provide — "we," as in this government — the least "No one forces anyone to farm. Please don't further erode or develop the land. Let a new generation have a turn. It is time for support for farmers in the entire country. Th is Liberal this province to invest in agriculture. We need to protect our land government and their members have been purporting and continue to support the farming community. that Bill 24 helps the farmers. Well, if the government "I invest in my community and do my best to make a living, and wants to support our farmers, according to the rancher it's tough. Th e overall cost of running a farm has only ever gone up, and the prices for products produced off the land have only gone that I spoke to, let's not confuse the issue. Let's support down. Agriculture needs support. Do what is right for the future our farmers with real supports — with capacity-building generations. I am young and willing to work with government to and infrastructure and buy-B.C. programs that were can- help strengthen agriculture." celled by this government. I'll refrain from using the name, but the Minister of We need real supports for farmers. Per farmer, this Agriculture is here. I will provide him with this letter on government provides the least dollars towards sup- request, and he will be able to contact this very astute and porting agriculture and farmers in the country. And the wise young man. Wisdom is not necessarily held by age. rest of the country holds up our agricultural land reserve Th e young have wisdom too. as the model for food security and for allowing for the Th is decision to bring in Bill 24 ignores any type of wis- future generations to engage in agriculture and farming. dom that I've ever seen. I think that was highlighted by If the government is being honest about wanting to this young man's very eloquent letter to the Premier. As help farmers, then help the farmers. Follow the lead of I mentioned, his father is an established rancher in the other jurisdictions that do. Even crossing the line into Alberni Valley also. Th at's just one example of the actual, Washington State, they provide key infrastructure and real world when it comes to farming and the eff ects that capacity-building that we don't here. Th ose are the sup- Bill 24 will have on those farmers, present and future. ports that farmers need. But Bill 24 will push the value On Friday I was fortunate to attend a meeting in the of agricultural land through the roof, will make it out of Comox Valley, in Courtenay — another great farming, reach of small farmers, of young farmers, of the next gen- agricultural region on Vancouver Island. I attended with eration of farmers in this province. our critic, who's doing such a valiant job on this fi le, the Th at same rancher that referred to providing capacity- member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast, as well as the building and infrastructure — the actual things that are member for North Island. We were expecting to be met needed, not enabling other uses like in Bill 24…. His son by about six farmers to discuss the issues that they feel sent me a letter yesterday. I'll read from that. are important around Bill 24 and their fears and concerns [1705] that they rightly have about the bad piece of legislation "Dear MLA: being brought in, known as Bill 24. "I sent a letter to the Premier last week, as I was concerned about [1710] the intent of the core review. I did receive a letter back thanking me for my input and was given assurances that the core review would However, it's a busy time for small farmers. Th ey're not compromise the ALR." busy. It's May. Th ey're working hard. I expected that Well, we already know that not to be so. But I'll continue. maybe we'd get the six farmers that were due to show "I am a young farmer who is passionate about farming and grow- up, but maybe not. We were certainly going to be under- ing my business. I believe in the ALR and believe that without the standing about that. Friday aft ernoon there were 22. It ALR we are in great jeopardy. Th e intent of the ALR is visionary. We live in a society where it is all about money — short-term gain was a full house. We ran out of chairs. Everyone in that for things that are not lasting. But the land that we farm is solid room had the same concerns and the same anger that 3806 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

they weren't consulted with. discuss at a later date in another part of this discussion — Bill 24 came out of a vacuum — a political vacuum, a not by anyone that understands agriculture, not by agrol- vacuum that was never highlighted prior to the election. ogists, not by soil scientists, not by science. I'm not exaggerating when I say that the agricultural [1715] land reserve is one of the most important pieces…. Th e Bill 24 is about facilitating the removal of land from Agricultural Land Commission Act 40 years ago was one valuable agricultural land — at the expense of our food of the most important pieces of legislation ever adopted security and our future generations of farmers — for a in this place. To win an election and bring in Bill 24 with- quick buck. I will not be supporting this bill. I will do out even a peep of this happening prior to the election is everything I can to fi ght it. fraught with problems on so many levels. Th e group that assembled, many of them young farm- C. James: I'm proud to rise and take my place to speak ers, totally know their stuff . Th ey know what's real in to Bill 24 and the challenges that I see with this bill. It's farming. Th ey know what's not real in farming. Th ey see interesting. When I take a look at legislation that comes right through Bill 24 and what it means to them, what forward to this House, I usually take a look at it within it means to the future for farmers all over the province. a frame. Th ere are usually two or three questions that I I learned something that's interesting about food se- always use when I take a look at legislation that comes curity — that 16 percent of the agricultural land in China forward. It's no diff erent for this piece of legislation. I'm is now contaminated. Th at's pretty scary, because China sure that for those who are listening, they know that this has almost a quarter of the world's population, and their is the Agricultural Land Commission Amendment Act. food security is at risk because of contamination of agri- I always take a look fi rst to say: "What's the purpose of cultural land. this bill? What's the purpose of this piece of legislation We have an agricultural land reserve in place that has that's come forward?" Th en I usually take a look at what actually been prescient in many ways, without knowing this bill may be looking to fi x, because oft en when legis- it 40 years ago, because areas like the Peace River Valley lation comes forward to this House, it's coming forward and the Interior, areas that may not have been fully util- to fi x something — to fi x a problem, to fi x a challenge, ized yet for farming will be, very quickly. Th is is the time to fi x an issue that's occurred. Th at's usually why you see for the values of the agricultural land. Th is is the time legislation oft en introduced into this House. for the ALR to provide food security, in real time, in the Th e other reason that legislation oft en comes into the world today. House is that it improves something. It comes forward We're losing our ability to grow food. We can't just to make something better, to strengthen something, to say: "Well, we'll get it from China, or we'll get it from acknowledge something. I oft en take a look at legislation California." Th at isn't going to happen because of climate to say: "Is this something that improves it?" I'll come back change, droughts in California, contamination in China. to those three questions, because I think it is, as I said, Th ese are just two examples. critical to take a look at some kind of framework when Th e ever-increasing cost of fuel to transfer, to trans- you're looking at legislation. port food to this province, will make it cost-prohibitive If we look at the subject of this legislation — in this for many. Th ose that can aff ord it — it may not matter too case, obviously, the Agricultural Land Commission and much to them, maybe. But I submit that it does. bringing forward amendments to the Agricultural Land Th ose that can't aff ord to buy food will be forced to buy Commission — I think the fi rst thing we want to do is unhealthy food, fast food, quickly processed food, food take a look at the history. It's a well-used phrase that if we that leads to bad health outcomes that will escalate the don't learn from our history, we're likely to repeat mis- costs on the province in our health system — and all of takes. I think that can work both in the pro and the con. the associated things that go along with that. It's important for us to learn what doesn't work, but it's Th is is a very shortsighted bill. It's going to make some also important for us to learn what has worked in history, people a lot of money. Ironically, it seems to be being what has been successful in history as well as the chal- brought in to facilitate an increase in pipelines, tar sands, lenges, for all of us to learn from. oil, whatever else the government is looking at, with com- I want to start there, to talk a little bit about the plete disregard to the importance of that land for which Agricultural Land Commission itself. Th e act that, as I it is best intended. said, this bill purports to amend, the Agricultural Land I see the light has changed, giving me my warning. Commission Act, came into eff ect in April 1973, so it's Bill 24 is not supportable, not by this side of the House, been almost exactly, if we take a look at the dates, 41 years not by the agricultural community, not by the B.C. ago. I want to read its primary purpose because I think, Cattlemen's Association, not by the Peace River District again, it's really important to take a look at the act that's Women's Institute, not by the Peace River regional dis- going to be amended. What was the act brought in for? trict, not by the National Farmers Union — I've got a let- Well, its primary purpose was to preserve agricultural ter from them, which I will hopefully have a chance to land and to encourage the establishment and mainten- Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3807

ance of farms. So it's interesting, if you take a look at that sites around the province. Th is was a provincewide body. purpose, that it's just as relevant today, I would suggest, I'll come back to that again, because I think it has signifi - as it was when the act was brought in, in 1973 — just as cance in the kinds of amendments that are going to be important today as it was 41 years ago. And what was the looked at. So a provincewide body. context of the time? I also think it's interesting to note that this body — in Why would the Legislature, the people sitting in the the original legislation that was brought in, in the '70s — Legislature back in the 1970s…? Why were they looking was also responsible for hearing proposals to look at taking at the issue of agricultural land? Why was it important, land out of the agricultural land reserve. Th ey did provide and why did it end up as a priority in this Legislature? As an opportunity in this bill for exceptions — for exceptions we all know, as those of us who've sat in this House for a when there were cases that could be proven, when people few years know, priorities and a number of issues of legis- had come forward, when the research was done. When the lation could come forward at any time. Th ere are always provincial body took a look at applications that came in, competing demands. Th ere are always many things that they could take a look at non-farming purposes and excep- people are looking for to bring forward and to get on the tions if the case was made to the provincial body. front of legislation. Now, I think that's very interesting to note in the legis- In this case, back in 1973, we actually saw that the lation, because I've heard a lot of rhetoric from the other government of the day believed that it was important to side about the fact that there is no opportunity for land bring forward the issue of agricultural land. If you look once it's designated as part of the agricultural land re- at the context of that time, building up to this act, there serve — that there's no opportunity for any kind of rea- was a great deal of pressure on farmland. soned argument or debate coming forward or rationale [1720] to come forward and that that's what this bill is bring- It was a time in our province that you were seeing huge ing in. It's providing an opportunity for that rational pressure for development on farmland, for residential argument. and business development on farmland in the early '70s. Well, I would say, looking at the history, that if the It was also a time where we saw a real growing environ- government had taken time to look at the history, they mental movement across North America — not unique would in fact see that there is an opportunity. Th ere is an to British Columbia but across North America. opportunity, in fact, to look at those extreme exceptions. I think it's interesting, if you take a look at that con- I also think it's interesting…. One of the other areas text…. Again, that context from over 40 years ago is just that I've heard great debate and great calls for from the as important today, just as critical as today and, in fact, other side is that this is simply partisan politics, that those fi ts the context, I would suggest, of today in that we're of us on this side of the Legislature, New Democrats…. looking at growing pressure on agricultural land, grow- Because it was a New Democrat government that in fact ing pressures around development and a strong environ- brought in the legislation, I've heard some members on mental conservation movement that is important. the other side say that this is simply partisan politics. Th e agricultural land during that time period in the We're simply protecting something that we brought in early '70s was also a hot topic during the election cam- as New Democrats, and it's simply partisan politics that's paign, which I think is interesting for all of us to be think- being played here. Well, I'll talk a little bit about public ing about. Th e year before the act passed, the year before support and other support as we go on. you saw government come in, you saw three political I think it is interesting to note, again, that this legisla- parties running at the time, running to protect farmland. tion, the original legislation, came in, in the 1970s and Again, if we're taking a look at the last election, I didn't was, in fact, supported by New Democrats, by Social hear anybody stand up and say that they were looking at Credit — when the Social Credit government came in — taking apart the Agricultural Land Commission. I didn't and then by another New Democrat government. And hear the government of the day now, a political party until now, until the B.C. Liberals, we've seen this act kept then running in the election, say that that's what they in place. were interested in. In fact, I heard political parties saying [1725] that they supported the Agricultural Land Commission I think that says something about not only the public and supported the protection of agricultural land. support for the ALR, but in fact diff erent governments What did the act of the day do? Again, this is looking at of diff erent political stripes that have come forward and history related to Bill 24, because if we are going to take a supported the ALR. look at why this act should be amended, it's important to There's no question that there've been attempts to look at the history and important to take a look at what make changes. There have been suggestions around we're amending in this current act. weakening the legislation, about changing parts of the Th at act back in the '70s put in place the Provincial legislation. But ultimately, until we see this Bill 24, we've Land Commission, which was a fi ve-person body that seen the original legislation pretty well stay intact, which was designated with looking at agricultural land reserve I think, again, speaks volumes to the support that we see 3808 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

around the key purpose of the act — which, you'll re- public opinion actually shows the public feels stronger member, is to preserve farmland in B.C. and to encour- today about protecting that agricultural land than they age farming. did in the 1970s. We certainly know that the conserva- It's interesting to take a look at public opinion over the tion movement, the environmental movement, is strong years. Again, I would certainly expect that when legisla- today just as it was in a growing movement in the 1970s. tion has come forward, there's been good dialogue with [1730] the public. I'll talk a little bit about that as we go along. Th e other thing that's similar from history — if we're Th ere actually was a public opinion poll done in 1978, comparing, again, history to today's context — is that we and it found that 80 percent of B.C. landowners saw pro- know that the pressures that existed in 1970 for develop- tecting farmland as a plus. Th ey saw it as important. Th ey ment are even greater today, that the pressure around saw the value this legislation had brought in, and they industrial use is much greater today than it was in 1973. saw the value during that time period. Given all of that — given that the purpose is just as Th en we move ahead to the late 1990s, 1997, when important, given that the public is just as supportive and a survey was done again, asking the public in British given that the pressure is as great, if not greater, to re- Columbia how they felt about the agricultural land re- move land — what would be the purpose of this bill that's serve and protecting farmland. Th at poll found that 90 coming forward? What is the purpose of Bill 24? percent of British Columbians wanted government to I come back to those questions that I talked about at protect farmers and to protect farmland. Again, looking the start. What is this bill looking to fi x? What is this bill at the history of this legislation and the bill that we're here looking to improve? Well, one of the fi rst places that I debating, it's very clear that the public then, back in the would look in wondering why a bill has been brought for- 1970s, and the public now want to see agricultural land ward and what its purpose is, is to the people who would protected. Th ey know that once you lose this land, you be impacted by that bill. So if a bill was coming forward, don't get it back. Th ey know the value of this land now I would look at the stakeholders. I would look at the in- and for future generations. terested parties. I would look at, perhaps, people who've Th is isn't unique to British Columbia. We are not un- worked in this fi eld. I would look at people — no pun in- usual in taking a look at farmland and protection. In fact, tended — who work in the area. before the Agricultural Land Commission bill was even That would be one of the first places, when you're brought in, in the '70s, you saw Hawaii, for example, cre- bringing forward a piece of legislation, that I would think ate a land use law. Th at law was charged with regulating the government certainly would have taken the time to how rural and agricultural land could be used. Again, in do. Th ey would have taken the time to talk about it with the same kind of time period you saw Hawaii recognizing the people who work in the fi eld. Th ey would have gone the pressure that was coming around growth, the critical out and talked about the changes with farmers, with nature of protecting food security, and they brought in a bill that actually looked at regulating agricultural land. ranchers, with the public, with not-for-profi t groups — In 1966 — and I'm sure most of the members in this with everyone involved in agriculture. Not to limit it, just House would know this, either from history or otherwise to give some examples of the areas that you would have — the Williamson act in California came in and limited imagined government would, of course, have gone out development on farmland — again, another jurisdiction and had that discussion with. taking a look at the importance of protecting that farm- But guess what. Th is government didn't do that. Th ey land and bringing in legislation to do just that. didn't, in fact, go out — just the opposite. Th is govern- In the late 1970s in Quebec we saw the Quebec offi - ment decided that they'd bring forward this legislation cials actually contact B.C. and ask our commission — the without having a consultation process, without going new legislation that I talked about — for advice on how out and discussing this issue with farmers, with ranch- to create their own act to protect farmland. ers, with people who work in the industry. Th ey decid- In Ontario you saw some greenbelt legislation passed, ed they'd just bring the legislation forward. Th ey'd say: again protecting farmland from further urban growth. "Mea culpa" — we seem to see a lot of apologies — "but Again — that example as well — they looked to British it's nothing to worry about. We’re just going to move for- Columbia, because they knew we had done something ward. It's good for you." right here. Th ey knew that something important had Well, that is, at the base, one of the big problems we see. happened in British Columbia, and they wanted to look One in a long list but one of the big problems we see with at how they could provide the same kind of support to the government on the other side is the lack of interest or farmland and agricultural land in their jurisdiction. the lack of engagement that we've seen with the public on We know that the purpose of the agricultural land act critical bills such as this — a bill that has weathered gov- is just as sound today as it was in 1973. We also know, in ernments of diff erent political stripes since the 1970s. Yet looking back at history, that the public in fact is more here we are today with a government that tries to bring a supportive today than they even were in the 1970s. Th e bill in without any proper consultation. Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3809

[Madame Speaker in the chair.] are major changes to something that they hold dear in British Columbia. Well, in fact, there was a huge opportunity for con- I want to take a few minutes to read some of those sultation, a perfectly made opportunity for consultation voices. Although the government didn't go out and take called the provincial election — an opportunity where the time to consult, although the government didn't seem political parties of all stripes have the chance to be able to think it was important, this side of the House does to come forward, have the chance to be able to talk about believe it's important. We do believe that those public issues that they feel are important, a chance to be able to voices should be heard. I believe that it's important to put their agenda in front of the public. read some of those into the record so that that public Yet we didn't see the government talking about these who were speaking out have the opportunity. Whether changes in the election. We didn't hear the government the government chooses to listen or not is up to the gov- talk at all about making changes to the Agricultural Land ernment, I suppose. Commission or the agricultural land reserve. It certain- Th ere's nothing we can do about that, but we can cer- ly makes you wonder about why that would be, why the tainly read the voices out in hopes that someone on the government wouldn't take the opportunity to bring this other side will take some time to listen and take some issue forward. time to recognize the real genuine concerns that are com- Th ey just decided all of a sudden aft er the election that ing forward from individuals. this was something they wanted to do? It wasn't some- I'm not hearing from individuals that they're not in- thing that they thought about before the election? Well, terested in looking at the agricultural land reserve. I'm that certainly leaves a very bad taste on behalf of the not hearing from individuals that they're not interested public, when there was an opportunity to talk and to be in looking at the commission and the structure of the honest and upfront about these issues, yet we didn't hear commission. In fact, people want to engage. Th ey want to any discussion about any change to agricultural land in engage on this critical issue to our province, this critical this province. issue to this generation and future generations. [1735] It's not that they don't want to be involved; it's that they As I said, this is a pattern that we've seen with this gov- haven't had an opportunity. Now their opportunity is to ernment. It isn't simply Bill 24 that has been a problem try and have their voices heard while government tries for this government when it comes to public consultation. to bring in a piece of legislation that shouldn't be intro- Th ere is a long list of issues where this government has duced in this Legislature without that kind of thorough not done what they should do, what I consider just basic consultation and without major changes. Th is bill should good government, which is to talk to people impacted not be here, because it does not support agriculture, as before you make a fi nal decision. the original bill was meant to do. I could list things — from ripping up contracts with Let's take a look at a couple of those organizations. I employee groups to creating regulations for First Nations want to start off with the B.C. agriculture association without telling the First Nations about them and to, of itself. It represents 14,000 of 20,000 British Columbia course, the HST, as we all know. You would think, given farm families and generates 96 percent of the farm-gate that list, that this government, the B.C. Liberals, would receipts in British Columbia. Th eir chair stated: "I think have learned something. we're genuinely afraid that the changes will trump the You would imagine that they would have taken a well-being of agriculture and agricultural land." Th at's look and said: "Well, things didn't go so well for us on pretty clear. That's not questioning. That's very con- the HST, or things didn't go so well for us around that cerned about the heart of the industry that this individ- regulation we brought in without consulting with First ual is coming from. Nations. Perhaps we should consult on something like Th e B.C. Cattlemen's Association: "We need to look at Bill 24. Perhaps we've learned our lesson on this issue, the importance of food security not only for our province and we'll actually take the time to go out and talk to but as an economic driver down the road." Now, there's the public. We won't, like we've done in other examples, someone who's looking at agriculture with the import- bring something forward, tell the public about it and pick ance that it needs to be, unlike what we see in Bill 24 up the pieces aft erwards. Perhaps we'll do good govern- that's come forward. ment and consult." What about the B.C. Food Systems Network? "Th e split But I haven't seen that. Th ere is no example of that into two zones with additional requirements added to in this bill. Th at's precisely the reason you're seeing so the basic mandate for zone 2…. Th e intent seems to be many people speaking out, and that's precisely the rea- to weaken the primary focus on agriculture" — weaken son you're seeing the public and others rise up around the primary focus on agriculture. this issue, because they're angry that they have not had [1740] the opportunity for a voice in Bill 24. Th ey have not had Well, if the purpose of the Agricultural Land the opportunity to speak about challenges that they think Commission bill was to support agriculture, then, I 3810 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

suppose that the Agricultural Land Commission care deeply about agriculture. Th is is not an issue simply Amendment Act is to weaken agriculture. It's to take for folks who come from other parts of British Columbia. apart the focus on agriculture. Th at's certainly not what Th is is just as important to urban settings. When it comes I expected would be introduced in this Legislature. to food security, when it comes to the life of our com- Let's take a look at another group and organization — munity, when it comes to natural, healthy food, agricul- very committed, again, to the issue of agriculture — the ture is just as important. Pacifi c Regional Society of Soil Science. Th ey say: "Th e Th is quote says: "So much of our food is transported reduced role of science as the basis for protecting farm- from many miles away, but thanks to the ALR, we have lands within the ALR is deeply troubling." So we have access to fresh, locally grown food. Please don't take that "deeply troubling." We have "worrisome." We have in- away. I believe the ALR is a treasure that helps to safe- dividuals who work in the industry coming forward, guard land that will quickly be developed so that all of talking about their concerns and trying to get this gov- our food will have to be trucked in. Please think. Please ernment to listen. think before you make this happen." Th ere's a letter from 100 academics sent directly to the I think that voice is so important to take a look at. Th e Premier. I quote again from the letter: "Agricultural lands reason that this bill is so worrisome is that it takes away produce not just crops but contain wetlands, streams, that provincial oversight. It gives the opportunity to re- ponds, riparian areas, woodlands, hedgerows, unculti- gions to make individual regional decisions. Th e whole vated grasslands, either adjacent to or integral to farm point of protecting agricultural land is having that prov- operations." incial oversight, knowing that that provincial body is Again, here's a group of scientists writing directly to there to take a look — yes, listen to the regions; yes, hear the Premier expressing their concern about what Bill 24 the voices that are coming forward — and to say: this is will do to their livelihood and to their passion. I think a provincial good. that's important to state. People who work in the area of [1745] agriculture certainly don't work in that area for money. Just as our public health care system and our pub- It's not an area where there are huge dollars being made lic education system, our agricultural system in British by most farmers in British Columbia. Most people are Columbia is a rich part of all of us. It belongs to all of us into farming because of family history and because they in British Columbia, and it is critical to all of us in British care deeply about the industry. Th ey care deeply. Columbia that we see it protected. You hear people…. I'm sure all members of this House Th e easy thing for this government to do would be to have spent time talking to people who work in the agri- withdraw this legislation and do the proper consulta- culture area or who are running large and small farms, tion that is needed to occur. We will remember that this who will talk about the feel of dirt in their hands, who Legislature used to talk about introducing legislation as will talk about the joy that they get from being in the out- a draft for discussion and then giving an opportunity doors, from producing. It really is a joy and a passion that for the public to have a say and bringing it back in the I think is important to acknowledge. fall. Now, there weren't a lot of things that I agreed with When we see these kinds of quotes coming forward, the former Premier, Premier Campbell, on, but that was when we see these kinds of comments coming forward, one of them. they aren't simply coming forward because an individual happened to see a bill coming forward in the Legislature, S. Hammell: I'm pleased to rise and take my place in Bill 24, and decided: "Well, I better put something down the debate on Bill 24, the Agricultural Land Commission on paper." It's coming from the heart from these farmers. Amendment Act. I'm pleased to raise my voice in oppos- It's coming from the heart from people who work in the ition to this act but rise in sorrow that a bill such as this agriculture industry, who care so deeply about this issue. has found its way onto the fl oor of this House. I want to read a couple of quotes from the public that It's shocking, really. Prior to 2013 this Liberal gov- have also been coming in, because again, as I said, I ernment was in power for 12 years and gave little indi- think that's part of the real challenge that we see in this cation to anyone, to us in the House or the public, that bill coming forward, the lack of public involvement and they were preparing to attack the role of the Agricultural engagement. Land Commission and the agricultural land reserve. But Th is quote actually came in from someone who lives why am I not surprised? Th e minister who is carrying out in an urban setting. I'll talk a little bit about that in the this travesty has said — and if I'd been aware, I suppose time I have, because I think there are people who think I should have known — "I've been very frustrated with that the only people who are going to stand up and talk the way the Agricultural Land Commission operates." about agriculture are people who come from the country Th e minister who appears, actually, to be in charge — people who come from rural areas, people who come of this fi le, because he's been very clear that he calls the from other parts of British Columbia. shots on it, has been in the past very frustrated with the Well, I grew up in Victoria from the age of fi ve, and I way the Agricultural Land Commission operates. He has Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3811

also said that people who are trying to get land out "are I'd like to quote from the Province newspaper of constantly being turned down when they want to use December 29, 1972. Th e article says: their own private land — land that they purchased — for "Basically, the public is in sympathy with the government's pro- the purposes of maybe a small subdivision, or maybe gram. As the population increases, open space is at a premium. Th ere is every indication that the housing stampede onto the they want to put a small campground on it, and they've fl oodplain of the Fraser, for instance, has to be restricted before been fl ummoxed by the Agricultural Land Commission it goes further. for years." "Th e government" — and all future governments, I would add — Now, I think that's what the Agricultural Land "has taken great courage in taking its fi rst step, and it will deserve Commission's job was: to protect the land from being public understanding and support when it comes to dealing with the costs and ramifi cations of that fi rst step." taken out of the reserve for subdivisions and camp- Th at fi rst step was Bill 42, which set up the Agricultural grounds and uses other than agriculture. I think that the Land Commission and the agricultural land reserve. Th is minister was somewhat disingenuous when he said: "I article goes on to say: do get a kick out of the 100-mile diet, except, where you "Instead of developers out to take the line of least resistance out live, you'd have to eat hay." I mean, I think that sort of onto the Fraser fl atlands, where land is plentiful and subdivision sets the tone for this whole move on the agricultural land costs are low, home-building may have to be channelled up the reserve, because basically there's a deep-set contempt for sides of the hills and onto the benches on the north shore of the preserving the land and more cheerleading for getting Fraser and of the ." land out and creating subdivisions or creating other en- Now, if you go anywhere in the world and you look terprises on the land. at where the houses are in a farm, the houses will be set If you look at these comments, you kind of look for on the highest point of the land, because you move your leadership and for vision and for hope and perspective on houses up onto the uplands and you farm the lowlands. the future. Is there a vision for the future in those com- Th at's what we did in the Lower Mainland. Th e land in ments? Th e problem is that this government does not the Peace, the north and the Kootenays is just as import- understand or appear to understand that it takes back- ant for the future as the land in the Lower Mainland. bone and vision to protect the future from the present. Sometimes one does despair that the three elements — During the election of 1972 every party, every single land, water and air — that collectively we must preserve party in the province, could see the future. Every party, as a species to survive are just considered as not import- every party prior to the election in 1972, refl ected the ant. It's shocking. Really, this was an ambush — an am- concern of the citizens that they represented, that some- bush by the government on not only the opposition but thing needed to be done to protect farmland from the the people of the province that we all represent. Th is act sprawl of urban development. has taken place without any warning, without consulta- [1750] tion. It's just taken people by surprise. Former Liberal leader David Anderson in 1972 said: Before the election of 2013 there was no discussion "Th e futurists say that by the year 2000 the area from of alienating farm use from its fi rst and best use: that of Chilliwack to the sea will be an urban development of growing food. Th ere was not a plank in the platform of Greater Vancouver. Once it's gone, it's gone for good. the Liberal Party in the 2013 provincial election a year God gave up making farmland long ago." ago that described the two zones — it did not mention Houses, they predicted at that time, from Vancouver two zones — and not a mention of 90 percent of our agri- to Chilliwack in 28 years. Th ere was fear about what that cultural land being opened for any type of development. sprawl would do to the valley, to the great farmlands of "Let's just let her rip." So 90 percent of the agricultural the Fraser delta. land will not be protected in the future. Now it is years later, and we don't have houses from [1755] here to Chilliwack on the valley bottoms or on the riv- Th e farmland will be brought up to the same level as er deltas where you fi nd some of the best agricultural economic development. Economic development means land in B.C., nor have we had them in 42 years because any kind of development — cultural and social develop- the governments of the last four decades and the people ment, regional planning objectives and other prescribed of this province have clearly said, over and over again, conditions. no, loud and clear, to messing with the ALR and yes to Some 5 percent of our land is arable. Of that, 90 per- preserving the farm breadbasket for future generations. cent is in the zone for development and the resulting You look into the future. You understand that there is alienation from the fi rst and best use of the land, grow- an absolute limit to farmland. You understand that there ing food. Hon. Speaker, 90 percent of the land is in zone is an ever-increasing population in British Columbia and 2, and in zone 2 anything goes now on agricultural land. in the world in general, you understand that they are not I mean, what else could the government possibly do to making this land anymore, and you protect it. It is sup- make sure that anybody that wants to do anything on ported now — protecting that farmland — as it was when agricultural land has the green light? it was brought into the province. As I've said before, and I'll say it again, the land in the 3812 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

Peace and the north and the Kootenays is as important it was one of the fi rst ones. It was a huge farm. Th ere was as the land in the Lower Mainland. In fact, in the future, Laing's farm, McDonald's farm, Cline's farm and Tong's as the climate warms, it may be much, much more im- farm. I'm sure there are others that I don't remember, but portant than it is now. what I remember clearly is that there were farms around It is sometimes worth looking back as we make chan- all of this subdivision. ges in the present that will aff ect the future. In speaking Grauer's was along Grauer Road. Just the remnants of about Bill 24, I want to go back in time just a little bit to Grauer Road are still there. It was a major milking farm the '50s and '60s, postwar. During that period of time in with a huge, huge herd of cattle. Classes from my elemen- the '50s and '60s, before Bill 42, which was the original tary school went on fi eld trips there and saw the cows be- act that put the agricultural land reserve into play, and ing milked by machine and then the machines bottling now, before this Bill 24 that's hoping to take 90 percent the milk and putting caps on them. It was actually, from of it and just let development do what it wants there…. a child's perspective, just an amazing operation. Th ey Before that time in the Lower Mainland, it was the popped in the little cardboard lid that you pulled out of postwar period, and there was rapid housing going on the glass bottle when you wanted to pour the milk. and rapid industrial development. Men and women — At the end of this, they always gave us chocolate milk but largely the men — were coming home to their fam- in a little bottle as our fi nal treat of the trip. I thought our ilies from the war. Th ey had fought and won, and their school was especially special to be able to go to that farm country was grateful. to see this amazing operation, as it was the school on the Th eir coming home saw a rapid expansion of housing. island that I went to. Veterans' subdivisions spread out all around the Lower Th ey also kept bulls at the farm in huge pens, because Mainland. Th ey were accompanied by many other in- the bulls themselves were very big. We didn't see them itiatives around housing, and this is where you began to in our school outings, but when we rode our bikes up to see the urban sprawl. the farms as kids, the farmhands would show off these Th ese men coming home wanted to get on with life — amazing beasts. I remember clearly climbing up on a few raise a family, fi nd a job, make a home — and they did. boards of the fence, reaching over and petting the fore- Comparatively speaking, if you compare to today — to head of one of these massive animals. His eyes were huge, most of us, I think, except maybe a few — they had large and he looked at me for a few long seconds, and I was families. Th ey had four, fi ve, six kids — many. Over time, absolutely thrilled. Th e smell, the sight and the sounds again, this added more pressure to the need to provide of that farm are still with me. housing for the ever-growing population of the Lower Bill 42, the original bill, did not save these farms. It was Mainland. aft er these farms had been expropriated and the move to Originally, Bill 42 was the response to that pressure, expand the airport was complete, or the future was being and now we have Bill 24, which undoes some of the good planned, that it sealed their fate. that the original bill did. Th e land for housing both post- We had Grauer's farm. We had Laing's farm on one war and beyond put incredible pressures on that very fer- side of the subdivision. I remember so clearly my father tile agricultural land in the province. always warning us kids not to go out into Jimmy Laing's I just want to take a minute and talk a little bit about fi eld. I think it was Arthur Laing. I can't remember, ac- some land in Richmond. Yesterday was Mother's Day, tually, his fi rst name, but he was a very famous Liberal and my daughter and I took a trip down memory lane — at that time. at least it was my memory lane, not hers. I dragged her Tong's farm was a small vegetable farm of just a few along with me, and we went out and looked at the sub- acres. He was a quiet man who gave us kids candies, but division where I grew up. I had never been there with my he didn't want our company. He was part of the com- daughter, and it was actually quite a bit of fun. munity but not part. Cline's farm and McDonald's farm I grew up on Sea Island, in a veterans' subdivision built fronted onto McDonald Road. Th e McDonald's farm and aft er the war called Cora Brown, on the right side of the their house were close to the river and slough, which is island as you head for the airport. Th ere were about 50 now part of the park at McDonald Beach. homes, all about an acre and all on the best agricultur- Th is veteran subdivision surrounded by farms and al land in the province — the best land the backed up by the river was an ideal place to grow up, pro- could throw up. tected and cared for by this community of families tucked Our little subdivision of one acre was surrounded by into the back of Sea Island. I could go on, and I actually farms. Here we were on this island, tucked way back in have two other pages, but I do want to get to the point. the corner, surrounded on three sides by farms. During that time, Sea Island was — and I can actually [1800] say "was" — an island that had amazing, amazing soil on Th e back side of our subdivision faced the river, and it. Th e major players on that island were farms, with this from the river we could see across to Southwest Marine. little, tiny subdivision tucked up, of one acres, and then On that island there were two major Grauer farms, and Burkeville, which still sits there on the corner. I'm sure Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3813

the Speaker knows Burkeville well. thing that I'd want to take home with me. On the far side of the island was the airport. On the It's not a good future for any of us, and what I fear the other side of the runway that served that airport was an most from Bill 24 is that it's just taking 90 percent of our air force base. Th at was the fi rst industrialization of that arable land, which we only have a very small percentage island. of in this province, and saying: "Anything goes on it. Let [1805] her rip, just let her rip." Th at island has not been able to hold back the relent- All of this on Sea Island took place before the land re- less industrialization of the airport. Today the major use serve and could have been the future of Richmond and and the ancillary use of that island and the land that was all the way up to Chilliwack. Many of us will remember is the airport. Th e runways of the airport and the hang- many, many battles. Th ere was a huge battle over some ars and the freight buildings and every other thing you farmland in Richmond, as well as the Spetifore Farm land can imagine are now on that island. Th e farms are gone that is out in Delta, and some of these fi ghts or disputes — there's not a farm on that island that is operating as a over the use of land continue. farm — and so is the subdivision of Cora Brown. Th e [1810] future for that island was being prepared in the '50s and But it could have been the future for all of Richmond '60s and executed in the '70s, as the industrialization of and up to Chilliwack. Th e federal government expropri- that island's future was ensured. ated the families on the Cora Brown subdivision for the Now, I'm not saying for a minute that airports are not future they saw for the land, and it was the airport. Th ere important and they don't need fl at land, but some of the was no competing vision for the farmland of our Delta very best agricultural land in this province has been cov- until the ALR was put in place and largely protected by ered by asphalt, and without the agricultural land reserve all governments until the one bringing this legislation and its attending commission, in the words of a supporter into this sitting. from the '70s: "From here to Chilliwack would be noth- It is shocking and shameful. Other uses steamrolled ing but houses in 50 years if we hadn't done something." over that land in the past as we lost blueberry and other An example was it was estimated that between 4,000 farms of Richmond to the insatiable appetite of develop- and 6,000 hectares of arable B.C. soil were lost yearly pri- ment. Th e tragedy of this bill, Bill 24, is that aft er 42 years or to 1972 to non-farming purposes and alienating the of protection — 42 years of protecting the land that is the farmland from its use. Subdivisions like the one I grew up farmland of this province, 42 years of protecting 5 per- in are an example of non-farming use despite individual cent of our lands…. Th e irony is that we are protecting eff orts. Th e fi nal use of the airport and all its entrapments the most fertile land from ourselves. We need the land sealed the fate of that fabulous soil as being alienated for- to remain as farmland, because once it's gone, it's gone. ever from its best use. You are the authors of destroying that land. It is nobody's Let me talk to you just a minute about alienating the responsibility but ours in this House to protect the farm- land. When we went out there yesterday, there were land of our province. mounds and mounds of gravel and sand that are settling We, in this House, cannot see as clearly into the future and permeating the land so that big warehouses can be as those who have gone before us. Th at is actually such a placed on the land. Th ere are runways. Th e fertile soil, shame. Th e gift of the ALR from those who went before if not entirely removed, is mixed with huge amounts us would be much better served if before we changed it, of gravel and sand and sometimes concrete and indus- we consulted. Th ere is a trend in this government that trial fi ll. you just do it and you don't consult. Th e soil that was built up for years and years by the We actually represent people. We are the top of the Fraser River as it searched for the sea is gone. It is abso- pyramid of people that we are representing when we lutely gone, unrecognizable. Th at land will never, ever be come into this House. We govern on their behalf, and able to be farmed again. Once it's gone, it is gone. God we govern at their pleasure. We have a responsibility to gave up making farmland long ago, but we're sure not consult and speak with them on issues of major import- fi nished alienating it from any farm future. ance. Th is is another example of how we're just going Mounds of sand and gravel, huge hangars and indus- to bring in legislation, do it without consultation, make trial warehouses built close to the airport for effi ciency's major changes that were never promised, and the devil sake, but gone are any remnants of those large, prosper- take the hindmost. ous farms that grew their crops on the land. Not only the We need to re-evaluate this bill. We need to review farms are gone, the land is gone and alienated. the debate from the past — what David Anderson ad- Madame Speaker, we went out through Iona — you'll mitted on Monday, August 21, 1972, at a garden party know this well; I think this is actually in your constitu- in Sardis. He was speaking not only for himself, but he ency — and out to the regional park at the end of Iona. was refl ecting the general unease of the population that We passed one very small equestrian centre with a num- he was representing. Th ey did not want to see the area ber of horses in a pasture, and that is it. Th at is not some- from Chilliwack to the sea be an urban development of 3814 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

greater Vancouver. She has written some really compelling words about the Every time I go through the Deas Island Tunnel and land reserve as well. I've heard her speak, and she is very I head out towards White Rock or off into north Surrey, knowledgable. I go through the farmland that has been protected year But fi rst and foremost, in speaking against Bill 24, I aft er year aft er year by successive governments. Th ey would be remiss if I didn't talk about one of my favour- know that the future will need that land and that they ite constituents, my constituent and good friend Dave are there to protect it. Th ey also know that once it's gone, Barrett, who was the Premier of the province for a few it's gone. Once you alienate it, once you pump that land years here. In fact, his activities here in this House, in full of sand so that you can build on top of it, that farm- three short years in this Legislative Assembly, were the land is gone. driving force behind creating the agricultural land re- I think we should postpone, eliminate, defeat the pass- serve. I don't think you can underestimate in any way the ing of this bill and collectively pause and imagine what visionary process that occurred when Dave Barrett and was prevented. Th e brave men and women from the last his government took on this challenge of protecting the four generations who did not alienate the farmland from agricultural land reserve. its natural use — those men and women who supported When I talk with Dave, he has in the past talked to me the preservation of farmland in this great province in the very passionately about how you have to be courageous '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, and so on until this moment — and have to be fearless when you enter the legislative saw the writing on the wall. chamber and create the kind of legislative framework [1815] that was put in place around the agricultural land re- They could imagine the housing and suburbs of serve. Th at has stood the test of time. My colleagues have Richmond sprawling up to the Deas Island Tunnel, on attested to that here over and over again in this debate. to the other side and up the valley as far as you could see. It's very clear that this piece of legislation went deep Gone would have been the green, lush farmland, gone the into the heart of who we are as British Columbians. It was lands of the past. We know that whether it is in the Lower so substantial, and it was so genuine and such a great and Mainland or in the north, in the Kootenays or anywhere brilliant piece of legislative business that it has remained else in this province, 5 percent of our province is farm- virtually untampered with over all these years. land, and 90 percent of it is being alienated by this bill. Four decades have passed. Many attempts, I believe, We need to do something about it. We need to defeat have been mounted to try and fi nd ways to tear away this bill, go back to the drawing board and ensure that at the structure of it. I think that in the last dozen years this farmland is here not only for us but for future gen- there have probably been more concerted eff orts than erations. ever put into trying to fi nd a way to tear down this agri- cultural land reserve. I think it's an injustice that sub- M. Karagianis: I'm very happy to take my place in sequent governments have tried so desperately to take this debate on Bill 24. In preparation for this, I began to this apart. gather a number of documents and began to put togeth- [1820] er some reading material, rather than just come in here When legislation is genuinely good, good public policy and speak passionately from the heart and from the sort and good management of the common wealth of the of deeply embedded culture of the agricultural land re- province, then it does take such a huge eff ort for a gov- serve and the New Democratic Party. There is some ernment to try and tear it down. I guess that's why the really terrifi c material that's been gathered to talk about government has chipped away at it for a very long time, the importance of farmland. I know my colleagues have and to me, that is very sad. done just a stellar job here of outlining very cogent argu- Human behaviour is such that I think the history of ments on this. mankind has been that we naturally migrate to areas I have read through this document produced by the where there is arable land, where we can be near fi sh- Suzuki Foundation, called Forever Farmland: Reshaping ing, where we can be near areas to grow food. I think it the Agricultural Land Reserve for the 21st Century, and was a very natural process to have seen the settlement there's some very, very compelling information in this. I that's occurred in the southern half of British Columbia will use some of this to bolster my debate. Also, I have around the delta, in those rich lands that had been cre- the "History of the Agricultural Land Reserve," another ated over millennia to produce some of the best farm- great document here that was prepared by the Legislative land not just in British Columbia but, I would say, in all Library. It also outlines a really excellent rationale around of North America. why Bill 24 should be voted down. Certainly, I know that my colleague the previous I also gathered some information from Dr. Lenore speaker has talked from personal experience of grow- Newman. She currently holds the Canada Research Chair ing up around this area and seeing the changes that in Food Security and the Environment and is a geog- have occurred in the delta area in the Lower Mainland. raphy professor at the University of the Fraser Valley. Hon. Speaker, when you read the history and look at the Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3815

history of the agricultural land reserve, it took a great California has become one of the richest food-producing visionary eff ort and a great deal of willpower for the states in North America, partly based on the fact that government in the 1970s to halt what was encroaching they had some wisdom, some foresight and forethought. civilization. [1825] I think human beings are the only creatures on earth So it would seem to me that the evolutionary stage we that go in and destroy the best part of the environment got to eventually in the 1970s was a right and just piece around them that supports them. I doubt that you would of legislation, which I suppose is why it has remained to see any other creature go in and willfully destroy the area this day. that they subsist on. Yet that's what we do as human be- As my time in this debate wears on, I would like to ings. We naturally gravitate, as creatures in societies, to reference some of the pieces of reading that I have done these areas that have enriched environments for fi shing to justify and lay out my rationale and reasons for op- and for farming. We gravitate to these; we settle there. posing Bill 24. We have, it seems, been compelled to think about ways we can then marginalize the ability of that area to give M. Karagianis moved adjournment of debate. us life and sustain us. When you see in the history what was occurring post- Motion approved. war…. I know that my colleague the previous speaker talked about the post-war years. In fact, that was when Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported the fi rst really big onslaught…. Up to that point, I think resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. there was a great balance between farming and using the rich delta lands for the purposes that they were intended, Hon. M. Polak moved adjournment of the House. using the grassland out into the rest of the province for what it was intended — cattle ranching, raising grain and Motion approved. that kind of thing — in harmony with, of course, a robust fi shing and forest industry in British Columbia. Madame Speaker: Th is House, at its rising, stands ad- But as this area in the Lower Mainland began to de- journed until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. velop, we saw that immediately we began to pick away piece by piece, parcel by parcel, at the area that was a rich Th e House adjourned at 6:26 p.m. farming area. We began to build on it, we began to pave on it, and we began to develop ports on it. Recklessly, in a way that no other creature would do, we began to de- PROCEEDINGS IN THE stroy the very areas around us that we needed to sustain DOUGLAS FIR ROOM life and sustain food growing. I think the natural evolution of good governance and Committee of Supply good public policy came about probably too far along in the process for us to have really done the best possible ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF job of protecting this land. Certainly, by the early 1970s JOBS, TOURISM AND SKILLS TRAINING or through the 1960s, it was controversial. Th ere were (continued) some attempts to put together some kind of reserve, and it wasn't until the '70s that we managed to get a bit of a Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. toehold. We weren't the only civilization doing that; we Dalton in the chair. weren't the only society doing that. In fact, if you look at the history of land reserves, you'll see that other countries Th e committee met at 2:31 p.m. and other areas were doing very similar things. In Hawaii in 1961 the land use law created a commis- On Vote 30: ministry operations, $183,688,000 (con- sion charged with regulating how rural and agricultural tinued). land could be used. Hawaiians to this day are very fi erce because they know exactly the importance, especially D. Routley: Th e government has not provided any on an island, of food production. Th at kind of discus- new funding for apprenticeship and has indicated that sion and that kind of evolution of thinking were going industry should step in and provide additional funding. on elsewhere around us at the same time. How much does the government expect industry to pay? Under California's 1966 Williamson Act, farmers lim- ited development on their properties and gave develop- Hon. S. Bond: We were very proud to roll out the ment rights to the state, while local governments were new skills-training blueprint several weeks ago. I think compensated for property tax losses. So they immediate- by now it's probably a couple of weeks. It's not about a ly saw the importance of preserving those lands. In fact, quota for industry. It's certainly not that we're expecting 3816 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

industry to deal with the budget for the skills training of as I alluded to earlier, we've had a number of discussions British Columbia. We do recognize, though, that partner- with them directly. It's about ensuring that we use the ships with industry are absolutely critical today and mov- best labour market data that we have, working with in- ing forward, and that's always been the case. dustry and project proponents, generally looking at that We have industries across the province that sponsor data across a number of areas and saying to institutions programs, that partner with post-secondary institutions. — and also in my case particularly, the Industry Training We want to continue to enhance those relationships. But Authority — that when we invest those dollars, over $7 as I said last week when we met, the budget for skills billion, we want to look at what the need is that lies ahead. training and education in the province is over $7 bil- In fact, in the case of post-secondary institutions we're lion. Th is is a matter of looking at balance in the system not saying that 100 percent of their funding needs to be to ensure that students have the broadest opportunities re-engineered. We're saying that there will be some tar- possible. geted funds that would be lined up against the highest demand occupations based on labour market data. D. Routley: Th e systems and institutions the minister I think that's pretty pragmatic. Many of the courses mentions are already stressed to deliver the basic pro- that are off ered today will actually fi t and line up very gramming and in fact are, in many cases, cutting back on nicely. In fact, it's about looking at a system and making programming, streamlining courses in order to accom- sure it is reliant on the best labour market data that we modate infl ationary pressures that aren't supported by have, and also saying that a portion of the money, more increased funding. How does the minister expect these than $7 billion, will be lined up with those demands that institutions, already stressed to the breaking point and will have the highest degree of need. having to cut programming, to be able to deliver and re- invent themselves without additional support? D. Routley: It seems to me that the institutions are already using labour market data and already design- Hon. S. Bond: I think we've all been very impressed ing their programs to provide opportunities for students with the reaction of our institutions across the province. and that the students are graduating and fi nding work in We've met with a number of them both before and aft er, their chosen fi elds. and even since the rollout took place there's been very So if there's no problem there and if that is being ef- positive feedback provided about looking at current fi ciently done, then I'm asking the minister specifi cally course off erings, looking at how the system is aligned to where she sees a lack of targeting — specifi cally where the job needs of the future. $188 million next year will be coming from. Which pro- From our perspective, we believe that taxpayers in- grams will be repurposed? How did the government vest over $7 billion. What we're saying to post-secondary arrive at a number — $188 million — and not have a institutions, colleges, the Industry Training Authority, specifi c idea of where that would be coming from and which is also a key partner…. Looking at our own pro- which programs would be dropped or cut back on and grams, like labour market agreements, all of the funding which programs would be augmented or targeted? that adds up to that $7 billion of taxpayers' money needs to consider the demands that we have based on labour Hon. S. Bond: As I have said in our previous session, market data. we don't intend to dictate to institutions which courses In essence, we've made no…. We certainly have been will continue and which won't. What we've laid out clear- talking about re-engineering the system since we were ly is a road map that shows British Columbians where the elected. In fact, that direction was included both in my jobs will be in demand, particularly over the next eight mandate letter and that of the Ministers of Education and to ten years. Th is is a ten-year strategy. Advanced Education. We're saying that the system of training in British [1435] Columbia, which is broader than just institutions…. It includes the Industry Training Authority, labour mar- D. Routley: Is the minister suggesting that the insti- ket development programs, Canada job grant programs. tutions have poorly planned their programming and are We should at least give parents and students the best in- delivering students that aren't able to achieve employ- formation possible to make decisions about their futures. ment aft er their graduation? Th e SFU rate of graduation As a result, we're going to ensure that there are some to employment for students with a bachelor of arts de- targeted funds that would line up with those demands in gree is over 95 percent within, I believe, two years. Just the future. It really is, from our perspective, very prag- where is the ineffi ciency in the system that the minister matic to say to families and students in British Columbia: is pointing to? "With the best labour market data we have, we can tell you that here are the areas of greatest need." Hon. S. Bond: I don't think we've written a document I think the other thing that's been made clear in the that's at all critical of post-secondary institutions. In fact, plan is the fact that we want to start earlier. We want to Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3817

make sure that we have young people and students in K Advanced Education in terms of how that is going to be to 12 having experiences that they need, expanding on determined. As I've said to the member on numerous oc- some of those things. Th is is about a ten-year lookout, casions, we're not going to say to institutions: "Th is is how doing that as well as we possibly can and providing that you will do it." We're saying that we expect there to be a information to families, students and, also, to institutions. focus on labour market data. We will be working across And saying we need these to line up. We want this to be the labour market priorities board to ensure that the dol- a demand-driven system. lars are indeed directed to areas of highest need. Th ere was a view that 10 percent is a reasonable beginning in D. Routley: I'm assuming that the $188 million that terms of looking at what is in most demand. will be repurposed and retargeted this year — that that I think most parents in British Columbia and fam- work and that targeting is being done, as the minister ilies…. Certainly, the response we've had has been very, has indicated, on the best labour market data available. very positive, saying: "We actually want the information. What labour market data was used to determine that We want to know what the options are for our kids and $188 million was required this year to repurpose and re- what the best possible chance is for them to be success- target programming? fully employed with a career over their lives." [1440] It certainly has been very well received. So the amount is 10 percent at the beginning of this year. As I said, we Hon. S. Bond: Th ere are a variety of sources that we are not being prescriptive to say: "No, you can't off er are utilizing in looking at the data. Th ere would be B.C. that" or "Yes, you can off er that." We will, though, when Stats and Stats Canada. Th ere is industry consultation. we look at money, for example, through the Industry In fact, there is also an ongoing look at economic fore- Training Authority, which is almost $100 million…. Th e casts. We look at GDP, where the growth has been and board will be using the labour market data that has been how the economy is expected to grow in the days that lie created and working closely with the labour market pri- ahead. It's actually been a great deal of hard work from a orities board to make sure that we're actually meeting the fantastic team of people. needs of British Columbians. As I said in last week's session, we're actually leading the country. Th e federal government has indicated that D. Routley: Th e minister may not dictate to institu- one of the discussions they want to have is how we ac- tions exactly which programs they should invest or dis- tually put together better labour market data. I know that invest in. I agree with most parents that the minister is I'm oft en asked about the Stats Canada results that come referring to. I, too, would like that information. I, too, out. Just last week we saw an article that said it's basic- would like to know what information led the government ally it's poll. It's a survey — hardly statistical in the way to what appears to be an arbitrary decision to repurpose that it should be for determining how we plan a system 10 percent of the funding. moving forward. What indicators and upon which grounds was the de- Th ere are a number of pieces that we bring to the table. cision made that 10 percent was the number? Is it just a We've also created a new labour market priorities board number that the government thought was a good num- in government, which brings together at least fi ve minis- ber? Th ey may not be prescribing to institutions exact- tries, including Aboriginal Relations, AVED, Education, ly which programs they have to fund or not fund, but ourselves, to make sure that we have all of the players they're saying: "Okay, 10 percent. You're repurposing 10 who deal with training in any way making decisions percent. Th at's our number." How did the government together about how best to spend the taxpayers' money. arrive at the number 10 percent or $188 million?

D. Routley: What specifi c mechanisms were used to Hon. S. Bond: Th e member opposite is incorrect when determine this year's target? Th is year's target is a very he suggests that we're taking back or we're repurposing. specifi c number — $188 million. It is a part of the re- In fact, many institutions today have courses that would engineering and the beginning of the repurposing of line up perfectly with labour market demand. We are not programming in post-secondary education. What exact- saying: "You can't off er courses for poets, but you're go- ly was used to determine that $188 million would be ing to off er courses for plumbers." needed? Which programs will that money be directed [1445] towards? Who's making that decision, and which pro- What we're saying is there needs to be balance in the grams is it coming from? Th is is this year — not a ten- system and that that balance needs to be determined year outlook but this year. So we should be able to derive by labour market data that is accurate and current for some very specifi c ideas of how that number was created British Columbia. or derived. I think it's a pretty sensible approach. From that per- spective, we believe that 10 percent was a reasonable Hon. S. Bond: It represents 10 percent of the budget of expectation. Th at will grow over time. Th is gives institu- 3818 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

tions a chance to look at their programming and where [1450] they fi t in that continuum. But there was no mention of the extension of the The great news is the response has been excellent digital animation or visual effects tax credit to post- from institutions. People are excited about stepping up, production. I'm wondering if the minister can explain the looking at how they can help contribute to making sure rationale behind that and if there are any plans to bring British Columbia has the labour market and skilled work- this in, in future budgets. force that it needs. We have had very, very constructive and positive discussions with institutions, right from Hon. S. Bond: Th ere were two things, certainly, that presidents on down to instructors at those institutions. we talked about in our platform. Th e distant-location As I said, it has been a very successful rollout, and now regional tax credit. In fact, Budget 2014 did extend the we're going to roll up our sleeves and work with institu- distant-location tax credit to the capital regional dis- tions, working alongside them, ensuring that together we trict effective immediately, so the credit now targets can meet the workforce needs of our province. productions north of Whistler, east of Hope and across Vancouver Island. D. Routley: Th e minister believes that 10 percent is a Th e second piece was the digital animation or visual ef- reasonable number. It's a belief. What does she ground fects tax credit. Th at work continues to be underway. Th e that assumption or belief on? Why 10 percent? Why 10 Ministry of Finance leads the initiative. Obviously, it's a percent this year? tax credit. Th at's not my jurisdiction in terms of moving that forward, but I have been working with the Ministry Hon. S. Bond: Based on labour market data and cur- of Finance. Th e member is welcome to ask the minister, rent needs, we assessed all of the funds that were going when his estimates take place. out. We have to remember — and I'll put it in context for We certainly intend to meet the platform commitment. the member again — we spend over $7 billion on train- Th at work is underway. ing and education in our province. I should point out that digital animation and vis- Th ere's a view that $188 million of $7 billion is actual- ual eff ects in the province are doing exceptionally well. ly a modest beginning to the change in a system, which We have a rapidly growing subsector of fi lm and digital does requires some transition. Th ere will be decisions for media. London, not in terms of Canada but in the U.K., institutions to make, and it will transition to a larger per- is considered No.1, and B.C. is rapidly becoming recog- centage over time. But it's based on labour market data, nized as No. 2. the pressing needs that we have for industry in the prov- B.C.'s production spending increase in 2012 came ince for other professions. from a jump in animation and visual eff ects, with more It isn't just about trades as we would typically think than 30 digital animation and visual effects project of them, as steel-toed-boot types of training; it's about undertaken in B.C., with expenditures surpassing $200 professionals, as well, about engineers. In fact, when we million. looked at liquefi ed natural gas and the top ten jobs that are required, project managers, for example, were part G. Heyman: One of the comments in the Liberal of that group. Party's platform was that extending the DAVE tax cred- It is a very broad spectrum. We're going to have needs it, as it's known — digital animation or visual eff ects — across all of the sectors, including tourism and hospital- to post-production work would create a lot of new jobs ity. We believe that a phased-in approach was the most in British Columbia, attracting them here from where prudent way to begin. Again, we've had very positive they're currently being performed. feedback. My question to the minister is: what work or analysis has been prepared by her ministry or elsewhere in gov- G. Heyman: To the minister, prior to the last election, ernment to determine exactly what the job benefi t of ex- during the election writ period, her party, in claiming tending the tax credit to post-production work will be? what it would do if it formed government, made a couple of proposals with respect to the fi lm and digital indus- Hon. S. Bond: Well, one of the challenges in look- tries. One was to extend the rural-distant tax credit to the ing at post-production tax credits was the defi nition of Victoria region to increase that credit to 12 percent. Th e "post-production" and what it actually means. So a lot of other one was to extend the digital animation or visual work has been done on that. We've met with stakehold- eff ects tax credit to post-production work. ers. I know the Minister of Finance and his team have In this budget the promise to extend the distant- met with them as well. location tax credit to Victoria was kept, and the Minister One of the things since we've had the fi lm fi le in the of Finance, when asked about that, said: "Well, that was economic ministry…. By the way, the sector was very ap- a promise we made during the election, so it's a good preciative of the fact that we moved fi lm and digital ef- idea to keep it." fects to an economic minister because of what it is. It's Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3819

a driver of the economy and a job creator. We've had a market much more quickly. very, very constructive relationship with the fi lm sector, Th e plan also outlines our view that there needs to be certainly since we were re-elected and I became minister some targeted fi nancial support for students who are and the fi lm fi le moved over. engaged in programs that are in the high-demand occu- Th e data around digital eff ects and job creation and pations. Th ere is a series of fi nancial things that we will flow-through benefits, those kinds of things, are not be looking at. well documented, so we are in the process of doing some I think there isn't a one-size-fi ts-all. We're saying stu- more extensive work on looking at what post-production dents should start earlier. Th ey should start and…. We is, what the benefi ts are. Th at work is underway. love the dual-credit program, where a student…. We've [1455] met countless students who are involved in those pro- I would expect that at some point in the fall we'll have grams who just love what they're doing, and they want far more specifi c and clear data about the benefi ts of the chance to start earlier. Having the opportunity to do digital eff ects, looking at how the fi lm sector contributes, that while you're still in high school is an enormous bene- how they compare to one another, where it's best to in- fi t fi nancially, but it also gets you out into the job market vest — those kinds of things. For that work, we have not that much sooner. really had a lot of specifi c data in the past, so we are do- ing that work as we speak. D. Routley: Thompson Rivers University is doing a pilot project, front-loading training for commercial G. Heyman: Yes, I agree that a lot has happened, and truck and transport mechanic apprentices. Th is began in the tax credits have played a role — a role that's returned October 2013. I'd like to ask the minister: how will the more revenue to government, I think, but also increased success of this pilot project be measured? employment in this important industry. [1500] As the minister may know, I've had some back-and- forth with both her and the Minister of Finance on Hon. S. Bond: Th e TRU program is what we view to be the question of tax credits in the last session. I quoted some of the innovation that may be necessary to increase some studies that were done for the Canadian Media completion rates in apprenticeships generally. I've cer- Production Association, while I recognize that there's tainly said on a number of occasions that apprenticeship always a use for further study. training in the country needs work. British Columbia is There are, within my constituency of Vancouver- part of that. Fairview, a lot of people who are employed in the fi lm What the program at TRU allows is all of the technical industry, generally, and in digital animation or visual ef- training to take place at the beginning of an apprentice- fects, specifi cally. Th ey are very interested in seeing this ship and then on to the worksite. I can tell you this. One extension of the tax credit to post-production work. Th ey of the things I've heard from both apprentices and em- believe it'll be benefi cial. ployers is that they don't like the fact that people actually I'd simply thank the minister for her answers but also have to leave their jobs for periods of time to go and take ask that as more study is done and as she has informa- the technical training. tion, if she would be able to share that with me. It would Th is is one of the ways we're looking at innovation. be much appreciated. We believe that if you…. And the outcomes, the meas- urables, will be that if these students actually are success- D. Routley: Th e plan of the government points to, ful in their technical training, they will potentially have perhaps, more front-loaded training for students in the a pre-contract to go to work with their employer, and it skilled trades. Some critics have pointed out that this puts will increase the transition rate. a large onus on the students to come up with their part Where we lose apprentices is oft en partway through of the funding at the very early stages of their training. It that technical training, having to leave their jobs, leave puts their investment at greater risk and makes it over- their families. Th is is a way of saying: let's compact the all more burdensome for students. How will the minis- technical training at the beginning and get a pre-contract ter accommodate those potential eff ects on the lives of to allow that transition to take place to the workforce. students? Th e measurables will be: are they successful by doing the technical training in 61 weeks? Are we successful in get- Hon. S. Bond: Th ere isn't one route or one pathway, ting pre-contracts for those employees? so it won't be about front-end-loading, necessarily. We're Where we see the attrition rate, which is about 50 per- looking at expanding opportunities for students, with cent of apprentices…. We could potentially see this class dual-credit programs, for example. Th is has a number of have 100 percent transition as a group of apprentices into benefi ts, not the least of which is that you'd get the fi rst the workforce. We think that's worth exploring. It's cer- year of apprenticeship under your belt while you're still tainly not the way that every trade will be delivered in the in high school. It would allow you to move into the job province, but it's only one of the models we're looking at. 3820 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

We're looking at a shared apprenticeship model, as well, dents are set up for success. If they are successful, there which is refl ected in the document. Many small business are pre-contracts that are set up with employers. owners can't manage to have an apprentice. We actually Th e training plan also refers to additional student fi - need to have more apprentices in the system, so we are nancial aid for high-demand labour priorities, so we'll be contemplating how you would have a shared apprentice- looking at how we can expand and enhance those oppor- ship model. We're looking at how you can deliver train- tunities. But the class is full. Th at's the reason we're trying ing diff erently: on line, closer to camp. How do you do all it with one class before you move on to whether or not it of those things diff erently? Th is is one of the ways we're should be replicated elsewhere. Th ere is a view that these looking at innovations to try to improve the completion students have the potential to have a 100 percent transi- rates for apprentices in the province. tion rate to successful apprenticeships with employers.

D. Routley: I agree that the shared apprenticeship D. Routley: Based on the concerns detailed in the let- model holds some very promising possibilities for small ter from the building trades, will the minister commit business people to participate more frequently in trades to consulting with B.C. Building Trades before the de- training for British Columbians, so I'm glad to hear that livery model is expanded into the construction trades, if from the government. and when it is? Does the minister feel that more study is [1505] needed before the expansion of the program? I'm concerned about this model, though. Is the front- loading being considered for implementation on a broad- Hon. S. Bond: I have every confi dence that there will er scale, including other trades? be a direct impact, because Tom Sigurdson is actually on the board of the ITA, as well as Lindsay Langill, who Hon. S. Bond: Well, fi rst of all, we're going to wait to has spent a great deal of time researching apprenticeship see the outcomes and look at how the program unfolds. models in the province. Th ere would be two considerations. One would be wheth- I can assure the member opposite that there will not er this same program should be off ered at other schools only be input, but there will be a hands-on approach to — that would be an expansion with this program — or shaping apprenticeship in the province. I feel very good whether or not other trades should be considered. about the fact that we have expertise on that board that Th ere will be a number of things we look at, but it's go- will very much look at apprenticeship, where we need to ing to be based on outcomes, and I have every confi dence improve and what are the things we can do. that the new board, working with the executive team at Part of that will be looking at the model that the build- the ITA, will take a good look at whether or not there was ing trades use in British Columbia. Th eir numbers are success and whether it should be replicated in its form very strong when it comes to apprenticeship completion. at other schools or whether or not we should add other I think there are things to be learned there, and that's why trades to the model. I was very pleased to invite Tom Sigurdson to sit directly on the ITA board. D. Routley: I believe the minister received a letter from the B.C. Building Trades regarding this issue, dated D. Routley: The report on page 43, the Jessica February 26, 2014. One of the concerns expressed was the McDonald report, states that unspent training delivery fact that students will have to come up with the full cost funds totalled $4.7 million in the last fi scal year. Th is is of their coursework without the guarantee of a required mainly caused by public sector institutions returning 70 replacement to fulfi l certifi cation requirements. How will percent of their funding for a class that did not occur in the minister ensure that apprentices do not have to ex- the sector. perience unnecessary fi nancial risk by having to fi nance "Th e continuation rate from pre-apprenticeship foun- the full scope of their technical training up front? dation program to apprenticeship in 2012-2013 was 51 percent. In that same year $21 million was invested in Hon. S. Bond: I think we're concerned about barriers foundation programs, resulting in over $10 million in to students, and cost is a legitimate issue. I do know this: lost investment or unknown outcomes." the class is full. Th is is on page 44 of the report. Th is indicates a cer- One of the things that is being used in the program is tain amount of wasted or unspent trades training money. prescreening, which is very successful for trade unions. How will that loss to the system be reduced under the When you think about the building trades, for example, new plan? they prescreen when it comes to apprenticeships, which is actually what helps their completion rate be higher. Hon. S. Bond: I think that's exactly why we're looking Th ey do a very good job of that. at programs like the front-end-loaded training, where [1510] we're looking at shared model and looking at prescreen- In fact, in this class there is a prescreen, and these stu- ing of applicants. We want to make sure that every dol- Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3821

lar that is invested in apprenticeship ends up as a good pertise and the infrastructure of industry subject matter investment for taxpayers in the province. expert committees that ITOs have developed to inform We're concerned about the attrition rate, for sure. As standards development and updating incorporated into I said, if it were just British Columbia, then obviously the ITA's core functions. we would need to take an even more critical look. We [1520] actually are above the Canadian average in completion When most of the responsibilities of the ITOs are rates, so it's a national problem that we need to work on. brought under the ITA, how will this aff ect the ITOs? But I think that with the board we've created and the Many of them deliver other important programming ele- ability to look at some innovative programming like the ments. For example, go2 receives 30 percent of its fund- front-end-loading aspect, our goal is to increase the tran- ing from an ITO but also delivers many other important sition rate. Right now it's about 51 percent. As has been programs. How will these ITOs be aff ected, and what will noted, we hope that with the front-end-loading type of be the process? program, we could move that transition rate potentially up to 100 percent. Hon. S. Bond: Th e Industry Training Authority does If you take the combination of the prescreen, the abil- not control the ITOs. One of the things we have done in ity to have a pre-contract with an employer and the fact the past is provide funding. As a result of Jessica's recom- that you're not leaving your family or your home at cer- mendations, we have met with all of the ITOs and made tain periods of time…. Th at's why we're being innova- it clear to them that funding, from the ITA's perspective, tive — to try to actually reduce the problem that Jessica will end at the end of October this year. has identifi ed. Now, some of them will choose to carry on. Some of [1515] them are very eff ective and, I am certain, will choose to continue their work. Certainly, go2 would very much be D. Routley: Ms. McDonald's report also shows that one of those. But we are taking Jessica's recommenda- the Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training Ministry's current tion that rather than having the ITOs provide direct ad- labour market analysis is inadequate to allow for pre- vice to government, to the ITA, there will be a series of dictable provincewide planning. We also know that the sector advisory councils created. In fact, they will have a labour market outlook has not been updated since 2010. very signifi cant role. It was promised it would be done annually. As of 2013 Not only will they be involved in providing advice and we were 58,500 jobs short of the labour market outlook reviewing labour market data, but they will also have to predictions. work to endorse that data basically to confi rm that it re- Does it concern the minister that her government is fl ects the needs of their sector. Th ey will also be involved making planning decisions based on what the Toronto- in the validation of the plans that are being created. Th ere Dominion Bank has identifi ed as a "shaky growth ac- will be a very signifi cant role for industry through a series counting model"? of sector advisory councils to actually review and con- fi rm data and plans that the ITA makes. Hon. S. Bond: Th e blueprint is actually based on data from 2012 to 2022, so it's not based on 2010 data. We in- D. Routley: What is the timeline for the creation of tend to post the most current data on Work B.C., on the the ITA's new board and implementation of the board? website that we have. Th at will be updated as frequently as we are able to do that. Hon. S. Bond: Th e ITA board had an inaugural meet- For example, if an LNG company comes to a fi nan- ing on Friday of last week. Th ey are up and running and cial investment decision, then that will adjust the timing very actively engaged already. Th at is critical because they of their needs. Th at would be the same with any major will be responsible for the last recommendation in the project. We will continue to work project by project, in report, as one of their fi rst responsibilities. Th at will be many cases. As I said, we have very explicit data on doz- to create a 90-day transition plan to move forward with ens of projects, including projects like Site C and others. the recommendations. As timelines are adjusted, the data would be adjusted, I know that in my discussions with them, they're very, and we intend to be very public about it. We would post very energized about the opportunity. One of the things that data on Work B.C. a minimum of every year, making they're going to be looking at is prioritizing the 29 recom- it more current. But our intent is to update it as frequently mendations. You obviously can't tackle them all at once, as necessary once that project information is available. so they're going to look at them from…. At least, their in- itial discussion was sort of short-, medium- and longer- D. Routley: Okay. Th e report recommends that the term things. employer engagement, training plan validation, and Some of the longer-term recommendations would be standards and program development setting functions of things that we would be involved in directly as a govern- ITOs should be brought into the ITA, with industry ex- ment — things like harmonization of the apprenticeship 3822 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

system across the country. Th ose are bigger than the ITA D. Routley: I recognize the potential value of innova- board alone and will certainly be part of my primary tion that could be derived from this approach, but I also work plan for the next number of months. recognize that there is an inherent risk that the interests [1525] of an organization could lead to, if we don't have proper monitoring, challenges to the safety and training needs D. Routley: Your suggestion of an annual bid process of students. What steps will be taken to ensure that those for training organizations to compete for funding seems standards are maintained? in contradiction with the recommendation of a great- [1530] er multi-year planning certainty for training providers. How will the ITA balance the need for innovation in [G. Kyllo in the chair.] training programs with the long-term planning needs of students and institutions? Hon. S. Bond: I think that's just a wise reminder that this isn't about compromising standards or safety. Hon. S. Bond: Th e plan is to have a three-year rolling Standards are standards, and they would still have to plan so that institutions and, obviously, the ITA will have be met. a chance to think beyond simply: what are we going to do It may be, for example, in whether or not you could for this year? Th e challenge with that is that…. provide training directly at a campsite, and I don't mean One of Jessica's recommendations is that government the campsite where you bring your RV. In a camp setting, change its funding mechanism regarding the Industry is there a possibility that you could train on site? We've Training Authority to allow them to roll over funding seen some really innovative models where employers and look at it over a three-year period of time. Th at isn't are having the training done while workers are actually a recommendation that's going to happen overnight. at their workplace. In fact, it certainly has been brought to the Finance Looking at innovation in delivery, perhaps you can of- Minister's attention. He's interested in having a look at fer more sections at a particular institution, those kinds of things — but defi nitely not moving away from the that, but that is certainly not government's current prac- standards of expectation. We want the best-trained work- tice with regard to the ITA. It does not stop us, though, ers in the province. In fact, we're looking at standardized from having a three-year rolling plan, which would be tests across the province in order to ensure that there is updated annually — obviously, with the support and en- a quality control mechanism wherever a program is be- dorsement of the sector advisory councils. ing off ered. We think that's a reasonable approach. Again, the funding mechanism piece will take more work. It is far D. Routley: I'd like to move on to the Canada job grant more complex and won't happen overnight. and the B.C. labour market agreement. Th e agreement When it comes to bidding, I guess the way to describe seems to be funded by removing $300 million out of the that is it's a way of invoking or inspiring innovation. labour market agreement, which provided provinces and We've had a very good response from training provid- territories with money to support people who were not ers, institutions that are looking at that and, in fact, quite eligible for employment insurance — specifi cally older welcome it. workers, aboriginals, youth and the disabled — helping What we're saying about bidding means that rather them enter the workforce through programs such as lit- than simply allocating dollars just across the system, what eracy training. we'd like to say is, "Here's how many welding classes we Th e question is sort of: what now? What will be done need, this is how many welders we need, and this is where to ensure that those people, their interests and their train- we need them," and then allow institutions to say: "We ing are not abandoned? can do that, and here's how we can get the best value for the dollars that are going to be invested." Hon. S. Bond: Th e member's concerns refl ect the ones When we talk to institutions, in particular, they were that I had when we were asked to lead this fi le by the very energized about that. Th ey basically said: "Bring it Council of the Federation. on. We are competitive. We're talented. We can do this. We have managed to protect what we call, basically, We'd love to do a greater share of the training, and we stream 3, which is $37.26 million. British Columbia's think we can give you a plan." portion of the $300 million is $37.26 million in years 1 I think, rather than just assuming you're get fund- to 3, and that would protect programs similar to the cur- ing, there's an opportunity for you to get more courses rent labour market agreement. Th at really was the heart to train more workers if you can actually show that you of the debate that we had with the federal government: can use that money in an eff ective way. We think that will making sure that those kinds of programs were avail- actually help spawn some innovation, and I think insti- able — particularly for marginalized British Columbians, tutions are up to that challenge. people who are having enough trouble getting into the Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3823

job market. rates, looked at individual programs right across the [1535] country from coast to coast to coast that talked about Provinces were absolutely united that we needed to the success. have a stream that refl ected our ability to provide services Th e original language in the labour market agreement very comparable to the ones that we're currently off ering. was very clear that there needed to be consideration of We're also looking at a phased-in approach to the marginalized and vulnerable Canadians. Th at was the Canada job grant itself, which in year 1 for us in British point that I pressed with Minister Kenney — that mov- Columbia amounts to $3.25 million. Th ere are a number ing away from that principle was not acceptable to any of ways we can reach…. Th at piece is under the labour of the jurisdictions in our country. We were very pleased market development or own-source funding. to be able to retain, out of the entire $500 million, $300 Th ere is a transition period. We are working to look million that would meet the needs of those individuals. at how we're going to bring employer cost-sharing to Th at was extremely critical to us. the table, and I did express concerns to Minister Kenney We want to see the same kinds of expectation in the about how employers will react to this. Certainly, we've other program streams. I think it's fair to say that one of seen a reduction in the requirement for small business the lessons I hope was learned through all of this was that owners to contribute at the rate that the federal govern- the federal government agreed with us that perhaps be- ment had initially proposed, so there's been signifi cant fore they announced the program, they could have spent movement on this. We do believe that employers do need a bit more time talking to jurisdictions about what was to help cost-share for the Canada…. We agreed with needed, what was successful and what wasn't. them fundamentally on that issue. I think we have made signifi cant gains. I have to cred- I think the best news is that we have a two-year per- it where credit is due. Minister Kenney did listen and iod where there will be no clawbacks of funding from the worked very constructively. Th e other two lead minis- federal government. Th at was hard-fought, particularly ters and myself met with him on numerous occasions to by British Columbia. In fact, there will be an evaluation make this very argument. We were pleased to see that we aft er the two-year period, in 2015, to make sure this is were able to retain it in the fi nal version of the Canada working before there's any reaction by the federal govern- job program. ment to how the Canada job grant program is working. [1540] We do have a protected stream for employment ser- vices and supports which would see similar program- D. Routley: Th e jobs grant will provide up to $15,000 ming to the programs we have under the current LMA. to train an individual. Th e remaining $5,000 of the up to Th at was a hard-fought discussion, for sure, and we were $20,000 of training funding would come from the spon- very pleased to see the federal government protect that soring employer. Th is seems to suggest that it will be even stream. more diffi cult for trainees to fi nd sponsoring employers if the employer has to agree to that sort of a commit- D. Routley: The latest B.C. report on the LMA in- ment up front. volved the results of a survey sent to over 13,000 par- Th ere has been moderation of that in that small busi- ticipants three months aft er their training program was nesses, small employers, can include future wages as part completed. Th e respondents — 94 percent said they were of their contribution. But this seems to set up a situation satisfi ed with the program and felt it improved their em- that could be, according to several commentators, vul- ployment opportunities. Th eir mean hourly wage aft er nerable to fraud and abuse if employers aren't adequate- the program was $16.16, compared to $15.59 before it ly monitored that they are going to, in fact, fulfi l their began. obligations and if the system is unable to have adequate It seems like it's a system that wasn't broken but has oversight. been fi xed. I wonder what the minister thinks about Minister Kenney said that the intention of the grant how we can continue the benefi ts to trainees, given the was to train workers through employers without "cum- changes. bersome bureaucratic oversight." Th is seems to indicate an interest in minimizing the amount of oversight, yet Hon. S. Bond: Well, that was pretty much the argu- this system, according to the opinion of several observ- ment we used with the federal government. I think part ers, sets up a potential for fraud and abuse. of the challenge we faced was that there was at times a lack of awareness, partially due to the fact that the prov- Hon. S. Bond: First of all, I do want to clarify a couple inces and territories may not have been as eff ective in of numbers. First of all, there were changes made to the talking about the success of these programs as we should program. In fact, the Canada job fund, which it's now have been. called…. I called it the Canada job program. Th at was a We eventually did do a report, which was presented mistake. It's actually called the Canada job fund agree- to the federal government, that talked about the success ment. Th e maximum amount from government would be 3824 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

$10,000 and $5,000 from employers, for a total of $15,000. Hon. S. Bond: I was concerned about that, too, be- When it comes to small business, there is some fl ex- cause there are fantastic programs. No one will be auto- ibility in how they contribute toward the program. Small matically eliminated. What will happen is there will be businesses can contribute as little as 15 percent cash to- a competitive process. Anyone who wants to apply to ward training costs and count wages to make up their be part of the program will have an opportunity to do one-third contribution. So government would be a two- that. We expect that many of our providers will be able thirds grant and one-third for business, and small busi- to qualify or to shape their programs to fi t the criteria, nesses could pay as little as 15 percent of that. which was absolutely essential to ministers right across [1545] the country. In terms of guaranteeing work, that's one of the ma- No one will automatically be eliminated, but it will be jor tenets of this new program. Th e federal government a competitive process. Th ey will have the opportunity wanted to see a much more direct link to a job at the later this summer, although we were just…. My assistant end of the program. So, in fact, employers will have to deputy minister and I would agree that putting out an apply for the money. It's not about their employee or a RFP in August is probably not the best thing to be doing, prospective worker looking for anything here. Th e em- when people are busy doing other things. We will make ployer would decide. Th ey would fi nd a particular em- sure that it works effi ciently for those service providers ployee that they'd like to hire, that they would want to to be able to be involved in that process. have and provide a job to at the end of that training. Th e No one is being arbitrarily removed from the pro- employer would decide who gets the training and what grams. However, we will use a competitive process in type, and there is a job waiting for the person at the end order to meet the criteria set out in the new agreement. of that training. Th e employer contributes fi nancially to the training D. Routley: I understand the answer from the minister — 50-cent dollars, as we noted. Th is is where the qual- and the implications of it. It re-emphasizes the need to have adequate oversight over employers who participate ity assurance comes in. Training is provided by a third- in the programs. I'm wondering how the minister plans party trainer. In other words, the employer can't say: to ensure that oversight is maintained so that the possi- "Come along to my shop. I'm going to have Joe, the chief bilities of fraud or underservice don't develop. mechanic, do the training." Th ere has to be a third-party [1550] trainer involved. Our responsibility will be to ensure that the employer Hon. S. Bond: Th ere are performance standards on is meeting all of those principles when they are applying any contract, and I'm told that the way we monitor the for their grant. Individual employers and organizations contracts now is that we have staff that actually monitor acting on behalf of employers — in other words, union every single contract we have in place in terms of the de- halls, industry associations, employer consortia — can liverables they have. Th is will be no diff erent. Th ere will all apply for these funds. It can be in the private and not- be an ongoing expectation around meeting their per- for-profi t sectors. formance standards, because we will also have to dem- Workers can use it — if you are unemployed and seek- onstrate to the federal government that we have met the ing training to do a job, if you're employed but under- intent of the Canada jobs fund agreement. employed and seeking to do training for a better job, or if So staff will monitor each contract that is in place, and you're already employed but seeking training for a better again, those will be derived aft er a public competitive job. What the Canada job grant can pay for are tuition process for our service providers. It would be a similar fees or fees charged by the training provider, mandatory process for employers. Any contract we came to an agree- student fees, textbooks, soft ware or other required ma- ment on, there would be monitoring expectations that terials, and examination fees. all the principles have been met. In fact, our staff would Th ere are specifi c things that the employer must do in monitor those arrangements. order to qualify for the grant. Th e most critical of those is to have a job at the end of the training for the employ- D. Routley: What specifi c steps are being taken by ee that's involved. government and all of its agencies, including the Crown, ITA, to attract and recruit more employers into these D. Routley: Th e minister is quoted in the Vancouver various training programs — Red Seal apprenticeship Sun on April 4 of this year: "I certainly anticipate hold- programs as well as labour market agreement–supported ing on to a lot of programs, modifying them. Th ere may programs? be some we need to drop, but we get a chance to shape [1555] them under the Canada job grant category." Can the minister give me an idea of which programs Hon. S. Bond: Th ere are a number of ways, because will be cut due to the new agreement? it is important. We need more apprentices in the system, Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3825

and we certainly need more employers to step up and in terms of looking at an umbrella organization matching help with that. and sharing apprentices. For example, we think that there I am reminded, however, that one of the things the fed- could be leadership in the Construction Association of eral government talked about, in terms of the reason for B.C., where they would help take a number of apprentices the changes to the Canada job grant, was that employ- and they would be shared between a number of smaller ers were saying: "We want more involvement." In many businesses. But that doesn't preclude two or three small ways this is an opportunity for us to test that principle. business owners coming together and saying: "We can't Th ankfully, we have a two-year evaluation period. I am manage an apprentice by ourselves. How can we do it hopeful that B.C. employers will step up and take advan- together?" tage of the program. [1600] We do have, obviously, a tax credit system where the So we're early days. Th ere are some models in exist- B.C. training tax credit — it's obviously administered by ence. But really, it's about how we can facilitate smaller the Ministry of Finance — is designed to integrate with businesses that, typically, wouldn't be able to take an ap- other programs that are off ered by the federal govern- prentice on their own or large industry associations that ment. So we have a B.C. training tax credit which bene- could take on a number of apprentices, ensuring they fi ts current and future apprentices, employers, industry meet all of the requirements by sharing them across the associations and labour organizations. So that is a mon- sector. etary incentive. I'd be more than happy, as the work progresses, to But I think it's things like putting back, and putting in inform the member and certainly welcome his input. I place, the apprenticeship advisers. We know that they've know he's very interested in this, and I'd be happy to played a critical role. Jessica was pretty clear about the have advice. fact that we need to have those people on the ground. We We're in those early days of looking at how to deliver think that will be another avenue for connecting indus- it, but our goal is to be more innovative, to try to include try with apprentices. more employers, certainly, for the benefi t of those people Work B.C. will also have a role in doing that. And new seeking an apprenticeship. It's really hard for them at models of delivery, things like…. Th e member oppos- times to lock down that employer, so we want to make ite mentioned his support for a shared apprenticeship sure we facilitate that. model. We know that so many small businesses struggle to be able to manage. D. Routley: At the other end of the spectrum from The other thing we're looking at is how we can…. small business, we have the larger employers in the prov- When we discuss the harmonization of apprentice- ince that face an impending — or actually, currently have ship across the country, we want to work on a principle — a skills-training gap, a skills shortage. that would say that if you can do year 1 and 2 in New I'm thinking, in my own constituency, of Catalyst, the Brunswick, we'd like to be able to arrange the standards pulp and paper company. Th ey've told me that over the and harmonization so that you could do years 3 and 4 next three years they would be able to take on approxi- here in British Columbia. We should have that oppor- mately 25 apprentices per year. I appreciate the complex- tunity. ities that the government has faced in negotiating with So it really is about taking a new look at how we can do the federal government on the Canada job grant, but this better. I'm told — by some of my colleagues across these companies now are, very late in the day, trying to the country and, certainly, by Minister Kenney — that meet the gap that they're facing, losing the master trades- there is a great deal of heightened interest by employers people who are required to mentor apprentices and really in terms of stepping up and being engaged. We need to facing a crisis now. make it easier for them and get rid of some of those bar- Can the minister suggest ways that these companies riers. I think a number of the things that we're doing will — particularly Catalyst and other forest industry com- help to do that. panies — can respond and get these programs in place as quickly as possible? D. Routley: I'm very interested in the challenges for small employers and how this might be structured. Could Hon. S. Bond: Catalyst Paper I would certainly en- the minister give me some idea of how she envisions courage to either contact the Industry Training Authority smaller companies cooperating with apprenticeships — or our staff . We'd be happy to work through whatever we what that would actually look like? I can imagine that the can do to be of assistance. Our goal is always to get more circumstances would be as varied as the number there apprentices hired, so we'd love to see them move forward are. How does the minister envision this? with that. It would not preclude them from applying for funding under the Canada Job Fund. Hon. S. Bond: I think we're in the early days of it. I should also say that the Canada Job Fund is much Some organizations have already moved in this direction broader than just apprenticeships. For example, if there 3826 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014 were other training needs that a company like Catalyst was by year's end, or at least within this calendar year, had, it would be absolutely acceptable for them, along but again, the board will have to decide how quickly they with anyone else, to say: "We would like to participate can do that. as an employer in this program." I'm assured Minister Kenney thinks there's a lot of pent-up demand there for D. Routley: One of the issues that Ms. McDonald's this program, so we'll wait and see. report points out is that there is a lack of information Absolutely, Catalyst would be able to apply for those available as to how many people are registered, which grants. We would provide the $10,000 as long as they sponsoring employers they are with, what sponsoring matched it with $5,000 and they meet the employer cri- employers are available. Th is is also refl ected by opinions teria. On the apprenticeship front, we'd be happy to have from the apprentice and sponsor support's consultation a conversation directly with them to see if there were summary, where sponsoring employers and apprentices some barriers that they're experiencing that we could be call for the establishment of a central registry of spon- of assistance with. sors. Congruent with that is the customer service issue. Th ey point in the summary to a lack of general infor- D. Routley: In the Apprentice and Sponsor Supports mation being available, diff erent answers being given Consultation Summary there were a number of concerns depending on who they talked to and a lack of direct an- raised by both apprentices and sponsoring employers. swers. Th is overall impression of a lack of larger-scale or [1605] broader information available to the system to plan and One of them was the post-registration barriers, and the lack of information to individuals to ascertain how to there were a variety of problems. Worksite-based train- proceed through the system and advance their training ing standards were a problem to many. Mediating work- seems to be a problem that everyone is identifying. How based issues was a problem. Th ere wasn't support for does the minister plan to address that? mediation. Reporting hours was…. Actually, most ap- [1610] prentices thought they were not given the access to the full range of available worksite learning opportunities, Hon. S. Bond: One of the things, as I was thinking and a majority suggested their employers were not mind- about what we're doing, is that the Industry Training ful of their obligation to provide full scope-of-trade ex- Authority is going to start a job match system that will perience. be part of Work B.C. What it will allow apprentices to Th ese are obviously diffi cult problems for the govern- do is to go on line and say: "I'm a second-year carpenter, ment to mediate or to intervene in because, of course, and I would like to relocate or work or do these things." employers have different scopes of business practice. Employers will be able to choose or match and also post. Some can and some cannot deliver full-scope training. Th ose are the kinds of things we want to do. How does the new model attempt to address this prob- We do have a central registry at the moment. Th at has lem? It has always been a problem but seems to be a prob- to be improved, and we're going to work to do that. But lem for the majority of apprentices now. the most signifi cant recommendation is No. 22 in the ITA report, which really says we have to do a better job Hon. S. Bond: I think the most direct way to work on of improving data collection, reporting, focusing on ac- some of those problems will be through the apprentice- curacy, looking at what else we need to do to provide in- ship advisers. I think Jessica pointed out in her report formation to government each year so that we can line that tracking was not at its optimum and there were up demand and supply. I think everyone recognizes that. some of the barriers the member opposite points out. I I think the apprentices did refl ect concerns. think that the apprenticeship advisers…. Jessica — Ms. One of the things that I think was really helpful about McDonald, I should probably say, so people know who Ms. McDonald's report is that she went out and listened we're talking about — recommended that…. I think the and talked to a lot of people. One of the reasons that complement was 15 that was noted in the report — that her report was widely accepted is because she refl ected they be expedited so that we can get people out on the their views in the report. It is very straightforward, and ground, I think to deal with the very kinds of issues that it does refl ect apprentices and employers who have said: the member opposite is raising. "You need to do a better job of this." I think recommen- I think those are legitimate concerns, and certainly dation 22 is geared at exactly what the member oppos- they were highlighted in the industry training review ite brings up. report. It's our hope that as the new board grapples with In addition to that, we're quite optimistic about the the recommendations, one of the things they will look job match portion that will be on Work B.C. I'm advised at is how to expedite the balance of those apprenticeship that it should be up and running by the end of June so advisers being put in place. that we're not waiting; we're trying to move that forward. We currently have four in the fi eld and are looking at We defi nitely need to do a better job of the data collec- how we will move to the next 15. I think that the advice tion, looking at the broader piece of informing employers, Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3827 working more closely with apprentices. I think that's why breakdown, which has not been fi nalized yet, we will be there's a decision to return to a model of apprenticeship pleased to send the member opposite that information. advisers, who are critical, to be those guides on the side for people who are going through what is a pretty com- L. Popham: My next question will be around govern- plicated situation in many circumstances. ment procurement. In the minister of state's mandate letter a key goal was D. Routley: Th at ends my questions on this portion to increase the percentage of government contracts pro- of the estimates. I'd like to thank the minister's staff for cured by small business to at least 20 percent of the total their contribution and thank the minister for her eff orts contracts available. We chatted about that, and then I at answering the questions. I want to wish them luck in guess we decided that it was actually going to be a 20 per- addressing the signifi cant problems that exist, but they're cent increase in small business contracts. At that point challenges that arise out of opportunity, so that's a posi- we didn't have a baseline. I'm wondering if the minister tive thing. For the people of B.C., so much of our future has a baseline at this point? well-being depends on how this all turns out. To the staff as well as to the minister: I thank them for Hon. N. Yamamoto: Th e baseline actually is just an their dedication and devotion to the well-being of the approximation, because from year to year we saw such province and the students of the province, and wish them huge diff erences in small business procurement. But the luck in dealing with the problems. baseline that we've determined is $210 million. Th at's the amount of contracts that small businesses have received Hon. S. Bond: I just want to say to the member oppos- from government. So a 20 percent increase would be ite that I appreciate that the questions were very thought- about $42 million. ful. I think there are some areas of interest to both him and me that we could have some further discussion about, L. Popham: One of the things about procurement particularly the shared apprenticeship model. I think that contracts and using a baseline of dollars rather than the is a critical thing, and we're looking for advice and input. number of contracts is that we don't know how many [1615] small businesses are participating in those procurement I appreciate the commendations to the staff . Th ey have contracts. Does the minister have a total? worked incredibly hard over the last number of months [1625] to bring us to this place, and now we're going to work hard to implement. I appreciate the time spent with the Hon. N. Yamamoto: I apologize for the delay. One of questions from the member opposite. the reasons that it took us so long to get to this baseline is that we actually don't have a provincewide accounting L. Popham: We're going to switch to Small Business system that tracks contracts or discrete contracts. What now. My fi rst question is: what is the budget for Small we do have, though, is an accounting system that actually Business? If the minister could tell me the list of priorities tracks payments. for Small Business and how much funds are allocated to What we have done, though, is eliminated from the each priority, that would be great. total, from the overall purchasing of government, pay- ments that were made — for example, GST payments, Hon. N. Yamamoto: I'm going to give you two num- vacation payments, jury expenses, board and commis- bers. Th e fi rst one includes the program's strategic in- sion fees, debt-servicing payments. We have removed itiatives. Th ey were Small Business Roundtable, Small that out of the mix. Business B.C. and BizPaL Th e second number actually in- We've also removed non–business sector payments as cludes regulatory reform. I wasn't sure if the member op- well. We're not including that in the $210 million. Th at's posite wanted just the small business. Th e fi rst number is removing any payment obviously made to a college or a $2.475 million — almost $2.5 million. Th e second num- university or a Crown corporation, the health authorities ber, which would be $3.7 million, includes the reg reform. — things like that. We also removed any payments made Our priorities are funding Small Business B.C., mak- to non-business entities, so bands and councils, commit- ing sure we oversee the BizPaL program and the mobile tees, commissions, criminal record checks, election ex- business licence program. We have the secretariat work penses or award ceremonies — things like that. that we do to support the Small Business Roundtable. We also removed non-business payments from indi- [1620] vidual ministries. For example, from Education, we re- Our strategic initiatives are the B.C. small business moved exam invigilators — I'm not exactly sure what accord, procurement initiatives, succession planning, they do — inspectors and curriculum reviews. From mobile training and the small business awareness strat- Advanced Education, we removed individuals who sit on egy. Within each of these, obviously, there are some pro- degree review committees — so you can see that we've grams and things that we do. Once we get the program removed from various ministries. And government pay- 3828 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

ments — things that actually don't go to a small business open to increasing their small business contracts. But I and shouldn't really be counted in that. don't know how we would ever refl ect that that has had I just wanted to set the context for the member oppos- any eff ect. ite of how we came up with the $210 million. We don't I also at this point don't understand the steps that are have a single contract management system at present. As being taken to increase those contracts. a result of the information on the number….We don't [1635] have information on the number or the value of the con- tracts that government gives to small businesses, so we're Hon. N. Yamamoto: Th ere are no plans right now to tracking the payments that we've made. implement a contract management system. But the cur- All procurement opportunities that businesses could rent system doesn't actually reside in the Ministry of compete to win were included while other provincial ex- Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training. Th at would be some- penditures, as I just mentioned, were excluded. thing that would be decided corporate-wide. I'm actual- [1630] ly not sure who owns that system right now, whether it's the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' A. Weaver: I'm sorry. I missed the transition from Services or the Ministry of Finance. the two members here. I was just hoping to ask a num- Th e member opposite asked about how we would plan ber of questions of the Minister of Jobs, Tourism and to increase the amount of small business procurement Skills Training and hope that at some point in the future completed by government. One of the documents that I could be provided written answers. If I could pass them I would draw the member opposite's attention to is the through you, hon. Chair, by the attendant here. Doing Business with Government Project, the fi nal report, which is dated March 2014. I'll just briefl y go over the Hon. S. Bond: I would be delighted to do that and 12 recommendations and then provide the member op- happy to meet and discuss them as well. Happy to do it. posite the report, because it goes into much more detail. One of the things that came out when we talked to L. Popham: I appreciate that answer. I understand small businesses is that they were actually not aware of what the minister is saying. But just to break it down a all the opportunities that they had to sell to government. little bit more…. Th e $210 million that's left over aft er So implementing a cost-eff ective small business outreach everything else is extracted — we're assuming that those training approach to the existing business networks…. It are small business contracts. How can we make that as- doesn't have to be through us directly but through the sumption? chambers of commerce or CFIB. Community Futures was identifi ed as one of our top recommendations. [M. Bernier in the chair.] Th e second one is to improve B.C. Bid functions to make it more user-friendly. Hon. N. Yamamoto: What we had staff do was select Th e third recommendation was to implement a strat- a random sample of 371 businesses. Th ey were actually egy to communicate about existing and future contract contacted personally. We found that they were indeed opportunities that would likely be of interest to small small businesses, although there is a margin of error of businesses. plus or minus 5 percent. So 19 out of 20 of those 371 busi- Th e fourth is to explore establishing a supplier man- nesses that we contacted were, in fact, small businesses. agement tool that facilitates an increase in small busi- ness procurement while meeting the needs of various L. Popham: Are we sure that these are all B.C. busi- programs and priorities of government. nesses? Th e fi ft h is to encourage government's larger suppliers — I'll give you an example, like Telus — to actually pro- Hon. N. Yamamoto: It's fair to say that the vast ma- mote opportunities to subcontract out their larger con- jority of those businesses actually are British Columbia tract that they receive from us to small businesses and businesses. But because of the trade agreement that we also to encourage and promote and recognize those large have, the new west partnership, we can't actually exclude businesses that currently do that. or have a government policy that only includes business- Th e sixth recommendation, generally, was to improve es from British Columbia. information and resources to support small businesses. So the sixth, seventh and eighth were to do that. L. Popham: Is the minister considering having a dif- [1640] ferent type of tracking system so we can actually track Th en the ninth, tenth, 11th and 12th recommendations the number of contracts and how they're broken down all had to do with kind of cutting red tape and increasing within the small business sector? Why I'm asking is be- small business participation by streamlining the procure- cause when I'm talking to the creative sector or the culin- ment process and template. ary sector, I am letting them know that government is As the member opposite knows, 98 percent of all busi- Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3829

nesses in B.C. are small businesses. How we defi ne small So it is a huge communications gap that we need to close. business is: any business that has 50 employees or less. [1645] But the overwhelming majority, over 80 percent of that When I mentioned to the member opposite that we are 98 percent, actually have fi ve or fewer employees. We working with the B.C. chamber and other broad-based need to make sure that we actually have a procurement business organizations, it doesn't preclude working with system, an RFP, that is easy for small businesses to handle. the agriculture sector — buying local or buy-B.C. types Then we want to implement a new policy, an ap- of programs. proach for welcoming new ideas. In other words — and Th e member opposite mentioned the creative sector, I love this one — government doesn't oft en know what it book publishing, the culinary sector. We have a Small doesn't know. What about those opportunities that small Business Roundtable with representatives from vari- businesses see and can identify that perhaps government ous sectors, and we'll certainly use the Small Business is not actually looking out to procure but perhaps could Roundtable to consult with and push out those ideas. save government money or do something diff erently. I'd welcome the member opposite, if there's anything We're looking at avenues to do that. the member would like to help us support, in particular. We want to explore further ways to achieve govern- We would be more than happy to get the member op- ment mandates and objectives through government's posite's input. As the member opposite mentioned, this procuring decisions. How we'll do that is to develop is really important. Th ere are a lot of businesses out there, recommendations and feedback and ultimately make and most of them, frankly, aren't aware of the opportun- changes that are necessary when small businesses are ities. Having said that, there are a few sectors that really asking us, or asking government, on how to better sell understand this well, but we do certainly want to increase to government. the awareness overall. We oft en don't do a good job of actually getting back to businesses that, frankly, don't win a contract. So the L. Popham: I appreciate that. I'd love to participate in 12th recommendation is: establish clear accountabil- any way I can. ity for reporting out on all results and tracking through One of the topics I brought up last summer is one the Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business. of my hobby horses, I guess: that is, trying to fi nd ways Accountability for implementation of each recommen- to get more of our B.C. products on our B.C. ferries as dation is detailed in this report. We'd be pleased to pro- a showcase to the tourism world. I'm wondering if the vide that to you. minister has had any conversations with B.C. Ferries. I know that B.C. Ferries purchasing does not fall under the L. Popham: I'd appreciate a copy of that report. purview of the responsibilities of the minister, but I think One of the things that I'm fi nding…. I know that the it's an avenue that we are oft en missing. minister mentioned that there are ambassadors for this idea within the business community. A lot of times I feel Hon. N. Yamamoto: Yes, I remember the member like I'm also an ambassador of this idea. I completely sup- opposite asking that question last year. We did contact port the idea of increasing our procurement contracts — B.C. Ferries and asked about their policy. What they did 100 percent. But one of the things I'm fi nding is that we tell us is that they don't have a formal policy requiring are still, I believe, missing part of the sector. the gift shop to buy B.C. But they do know — because I'm not fi nding that there's any knowledge of this with- they're smart marketers — that there is a demand for in the creative sector, as one example. Th e book publish- B.C. products. ing industry — that's just one of them, I guess. But any What they did let us know…. I don't have a complete group within the creative sector is unaware that there list here, but they do carry food products. Th is is not just might be an opportunity. I'm wondering how we can in the gift shop. In the ferry lineup there are the markets maybe work on that. Also within the culinary sector — and booths. Th ey have clothing, jewelry, books, artwork the restaurant industry, the catering sector — just another or craft s that they know people actually do want to pur- example where I'm not fi nding there's a lot of knowledge chase. Th ey seem to be doing well, because apparently, of this idea. I'd be really happy and enthusiastic to hear they've seen revenues actually increase year over year. the minister's answer. [1650]

Hon. N. Yamamoto: To the member opposite: thank L. Popham: Th at's good to know. you for your enthusiasm and support of this. I'm equally I'm going to be switching to a topic that is a…. I under- as excited about the opportunities. One thing that the re- stand the general idea of it doesn't fall under the purview port and our consultation showed us clearly — and I've of this minister, but I think it's something that aff ects mentioned it already — is that most small businesses ac- small business greatly. Th at's the policy that's coming tually don't know how government works. Most small into place on Monday — MMBC. businesses don't know even how to access opportunities. Aft er a lot of pressure, there were some exemptions 3830 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

made for small businesses, and given that they met at Hon. N. Yamamoto: Th e Small Business Roundtable least one of the four criteria, they were going to be ex- did have a meeting where MMBC was discussed and con- empted from the program. But there are still very many cerns were raised. One of the avenues we had to address small businesses that are going to be aff ected by MMBC. the small business concerns, obviously — and it fed into So I just wanted to touch on a few things that I'm con- the exemption limits — came from the Small Business cerned about around small business. Roundtable, although the B.C. Chamber of Commerce Th e small businesses that I've been talking to that are network and the chambers were certainly very infl uen- going to be severely aff ected are recycling businesses. tial in that respect. Th is would include Return-It depots; hauling compan- Th e contracts to the recycling companies and the bid- ies, like Alpine; processors, like Syntal and Fraser Plastics. ding process were open and transparent. It was market- Th e list goes on and on, and I'm sure the minister has driven. heard from many of these businesses as well. I'll just remind the member opposite that the authority I'm just wondering if the minister is concerned about that MMBC has been provided to issue an RFP to select the eff ects there will be on these small businesses. Also, recycling providers and the conditions of the agreement does the minister have any idea how many small busi- are actually under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of nesses will be aff ected negatively by MMBC? Environment. [1655] L. Popham: I understand what the minister is saying, Hon. N. Yamamoto: I recognize that there will be and I understand it's under the Ministry of Environment. some businesses, large and small, that are going to be im- But as a champion of small business, I would expect that pacted by small business…. Th at's why I did work with the Minister of State for Small Business would be espe- my colleague in the Ministry of Environment to look at cially concerned about this. ways that we could exempt as many of the small business- One of the things that the ministry is touting as quite a large success is the reduction of red tape. MMBC is es as we could from being captured under that umbrella. considered a red-tape monster. In fact, the requirements MMBC has anticipated that it'll be about 2,000 to 3,000 for paperwork with MMBC are enormous, and some businesses in British Columbia that will be captured businesses are publicly stating that they don't have the under the MMBC umbrella. Th at's about 1 percent of all employees or the departments in order to fulfi l the re- businesses in British Columbia. Th e overwhelming ma- quirements of the paperwork with MMBC. jority of the cost of the MMBC program will be actually [1700] borne by about 150 companies, and these are fairly large How does the minister explain that we may have re- companies in British Columbia. duced some red tape over the last year, but we have now I'm not trying to minimize the impact that MMBC will increased it substantially? be having on some of the businesses in British Columbia. I have one business that doesn't necessarily fi t under But what we did do was to work with the business com- the MMBC requirements but lost out on a bid for a con- munity upon hearing their concerns and, as the member tract, was not able to even grapple with the paperwork opposite knows, came up with the three criteria, of which involved, so aft er 20 years of being in business, is now the businesses had to meet just one of the three and they going out of business. would be exempt from MMBC's fees. Th ere may have been, in the mind of the minister, a fair Th e member mentioned four, but I'm going to men- process, but there are businesses that didn't even have the tion the three that I know of. Th at is, a business in British time to deal with the mountains of paperwork that came Columbia would be exempt if they put less than one in, in order for them to even be in the bidding process. tonne of packaging or printed paper into the residential waste stream, or if they have less than $1 million in an- Hon. N. Yamamoto: Th e member is aware of the small nual revenue, or if they operate as a single point of retail business policy, which we just talked about. As a cham- sale and are not supplied by or operated as part of a fran- pion of small business, I didn't just champion within chise, a chain or under a banner. government. My colleagues who are responsible for the environmental stewardship policy…. We also cham- L. Popham: I am quite familiar with that. I guess my pioned this with MMBC as well. concern is not only for the businesses that aren't ex- One of the things MMBC did that we were quite empted. Th ere are businesses that don't fall under the pleased with is they created two levels for low-volume requirements of MMBC but are still going to be aff ected producers so that small businesses weren't overburdened by MMBC due to losing contracts, such as the recycling by paperwork. I don't have it in front of me, but de- companies. pending on the volume of recycling or the printed paper Has the minister called a specifi c meeting of the Small and packaging, if you're between one…. If you didn't fall Business Roundtable on MMBC? within the small business policy and you were just over Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3831

that, then if you produced anywhere from, I think, one But I'm going to move on to something else, because million to 1.5 million tonnes or two million tonnes — I'm probably going to be running out of time. Can the there was a second tier aft er that — you would just have minister tell me how many small businesses in B.C. are to pay a fl at fee of, I believe, $550. It could have been part of the recycling sector, and do any of them sit at the $1,200 for the second level. Small Business Roundtable? Again, it was so that small businesses or businesses did [1710] not actually have to weigh and measure and do all the paperwork, which we recognize would be considerable. Hon. N. Yamamoto: No, there is not a member from Th is would help businesses not have to do all the oner- the recycling sector on the Small Business Roundtable. ous weighing and reporting but simply remit a fl at fee. From what I understand, many of the small commun- [1705] ity newspapers actually fall within the small business exemption, so they will not be captured under MMBC. L. Popham: I think the point I'm trying to make is Th ese are the smaller ones that are the one location or that there are unintended consequences of MMBC, and sales under $1 million or revenue under $1 million. Th ey that might apply to some businesses. But there are other will not have to pay a fee or be captured under MMBC businesses that fall outside of that, and the red-tape bur- recycling regulations. den is massive. Just as an additional comment because I failed to make Th ere are also businesses that are going to be paying this point in the previous question the member opposite up to $10,000. Th at's money that's not going into their posed, I've been told there are about 20 small businesses pockets anymore. It's hard to run a small business. I know in the recycling sector that actually will be receiving con- the minister knows that. An extra $10,000, an extra bill tracts. Th ese are subcontracts from the companies that of $10,000, does make a big diff erence in the small busi- were the successful bidders to recycle for MMBC. ness world. MMBC will be collecting $100 million from business L. Popham: Can the minister confi rm for me how in B.C. In fact, on their website they have now increased many independent newspapers there are in British that to $110 million per year. How much of that will be Columbia? levied on small business? Hon. N. Yamamoto: No, I can't, but we can get that Hon. N. Yamamoto: No, we don't actually have the information to the member opposite. breakdown for the cost to small businesses or large busi- nesses, other than what I previously mentioned to the L. Popham: Th is isn't so much a question. But I would member opposite — that 80 percent of the cost of the assume that the majority of community newspapers program will be borne by about 150 companies and then probably fall under Black Press in B.C. — or a huge the balance of the program by the 2,500 or so business- majority of them. I do believe that they fall under the es. I would suggest to the member opposite that she best MMBC guidelines. Is that correct? direct that question to MMBC. Hon. N. Yamamoto: Actually, I'm not even sure of L. Popham: Again, I'd just like to, I guess, make a the member opposite's fi rst question. I believe you asked statement before I move on to my next question about whether the community newspapers that were under the unintended consequences of MMBC. Black Press chain would be captured. I believe the answer One of the sectors that's going to be aff ected in a huge is yes. Th ey would be under MMBC. But I do understand way is the newspaper sector. I know that's not under the that the Minister of Environment is talking to the news- responsibility of the minister, but what the newspaper paper community to address some of the concerns that sector has stated is that because of the $13 million that they do have. they will now be responsible for, their business plan won't work. Th ey're already struggling as it is. Th is is the L. Popham: I also failed to mention Glacier, which fi nal nail in the coffi n, and they will have to shut down is also going to be in charge of community newspapers community newspapers. Specifi cally, I'm talking about in B.C. And I'm not hounding the minister at all on the Black Press. newspaper issue. I understand that should be directed Th e unintended consequence of that for small busi- towards a diff erent minister. But I'm just trying to estab- ness is that our small business owners in our rural com- lish that there are unintended consequences, and if these munities use these newspapers as one of their only ways newspapers leave our communities, it does have an ef- of advertising within the community. I'm wondering if fect on small business — not necessarily under the regu- the minister has had conversations at the Small Business lations of MMBC. But certainly, if there's a void in their Roundtable, specifi cally, about advertising and small advertising ability, it's a huge thing. business. [1715] 3832 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

My last question will be regarding…. As the minis- 4 here now. Trevor Hughes is the ADM for Labour. We ter reports out on successes of the ministry annually, have Scott MacDonald, Keith Godin and Ian Mellor, who will MMBC be part of the reporting, included in the re- are all related to the immigration fi le in one way or an- porting requirements and red-tape requirements? As other. We very much appreciate their work. the minister shows the success in reducing red tape, is In terms of the PNP program, yes, we are seeking an MMBC going to be included in that equation? increase in the number that British Columbia currently is allocated. Prior to this year we had 3,800 spaces. We Hon. N. Yamamoto: Currently the red-tape count, the presented a business case. We have to present a business regulatory reform program, does not include organiza- case to the federal government. In that business case we tions, agencies or Crown corporations. It only includes requested an increase to 5,000 this year and increases in the regulatory count within government. MMBC is not the following years as well. part of that. It's a not-for-profi t organization that has Unfortunately, we were only given 4,150. I have, on been created by the private sector. numerous occasions, contacted the federal minister to indicate that we believe that British Columbia's number B. Ralston: I'm going to switch topics to the provincial needs to be proportionate with its population. aspect of immigration. I don't know whether the minis- [1725] ter may want to draw some other staff forward to assist. Th ere are provinces in our country today that certainly I appreciate the minister drawing the staff together. I do not compare to British Columbia in terms of its popu- don't know whether she wishes to introduce them at this lation and that have higher numbers of PNP nominees point, but perhaps in her fi rst answer she'll have that op- than we do. We are working aggressively to see that num- portunity. ber increase. We had requested 5,000 this year, and 4,150 As the minister knows, under section 95 of the was the change that we were given. Constitution Act, the provinces have concurrent power We're also working with the federal government on a over immigration, which is only the case in agriculture program where they are looking at how they better con- and immigration in the Canadian constitution. I'm quot- nect immigration with economic immigration — in other ing from an authority in Canadian constitutional law, lest words, highly skilled individuals who are needed in our the minister feel that she has to rely on my mere asser- country. It's called express entry. We've had the oppor- tion for that fact. tunity to co-host two information sessions here in British All the provinces have immigration agreements with Columbia with the federal government, looking at how the federal government, and perhaps the most compre- that might be helpful to our province — again, focused hensive — as the minister, I'm sure, is aware — is with very much on economic immigration, looking at how Quebec: we can connect individuals around the world with em- "Th e Quebec agreement grants to the province the authority to ployers and looking at how we can assist them in terms set its own immigration targets, to select most of the immigrants of immigration into Canada. who want to settle in the province and to provide social services Th e last thing I'd want to mention is that our current to new immigrants, such as reception orientation, counselling, language training and assistance in preparing for and fi nding em- agreement expires in April of 2015, and we're currently ployment. No other province sets its own immigration targets or in the process of renegotiating that. We certainly don't selects the bulk of its immigrants." expect major change other than the fact that settlement Obviously, there are some provincial agreements — services have been repatriated by the federal government. most notably, the provincial nominee program. I looked Th ey are managing settlement services. We're obviously at the service plan, and there is a reference to the prov- in a transition phase, so that would not be something that incial nominee program. would be covered in that agreement. Is there any intention on the part of the government to pursue, in the provincial immigration jurisdiction, B. Ralston: As the minister is aware, the immigration broader agreements with the federal government — not system divides professions into four diff erent levels of necessarily as comprehensive as the Quebec agreement skill in fi ve categories of the national occupation clas- but, for example, an expansion of the provincial nominee sifi cation. Th ey usually refer to it by the acronym NOC. program? I think the numbers are about 4,000 a year. Is I looked in Work B.C. and in statistics B.C. for the there any intention to expand any of those agreements breakdown of the skills of people who enter under the with the federal government? PNP program. Also on the website there's eligibility cri- [1720] teria, and it gives some of the categories. Can the minister perhaps direct me, if it exists, to Hon. S. Bond: I do want to introduce the staff that where the specifi c breakdown under those NOC categor- have joined me now. We've had a series of people in and ies — high-skill versus low-skill…? My sense is that, very out. I very much appreciate that they've taken a lot of much like the temporary foreign worker program, the hours out of their days to be here. I think we're in day provincial nominee program has been largely focused Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3833

on low-skilled or lower-skilled entrants. Can the minis- My question has been: why aren't they made public? ter direct me to the statistical base for that and prove me Are they made public in other parts of the country? We're wrong or prove me right? working on that as we speak. I have no issue. I'm saying it [1730] publicly now that skilled workers are 62 percent of 2013, international students are 13, the international postgrad- [J. Th ornthwaite in the chair.] uate pilot project is 10 percent, and entry-level and semi- skilled workers is 15 percent. Hon. S. Bond: Th e numbers are not currently pub- I am looking to ensure that it is within protocol for lished in terms of the percentages of how our nominees us to be able to post that more formally. I will do that. line up with the NOC classifi cations. We are looking at In the meantime, I will certainly respond with this de- how we can do that, and certainly I'm happy to share tail and any other that we can around the question the those numbers with the member opposite once we can member asked. do that post the estimates debate. What I can say is that the percentage of 2013 nom- B. Ralston: Th ank you for that. I think that clarifi es inations…. And there are categories that line up, as the that. member pointed out. On the website speaking of this program there's an Skilled workers, which would include NOC zero, A entry that talks about eligible employers using the PNP. and B, which includes managerial, professional, skilled Th e reference is to having a history of good workplace and technical, actually accounts for 62 percent of our and business practices. "Your business must be fi nan- nominations. International students are 13 percent. cially sound and have a history of good workplace and International postgraduates pilot project is 10 percent. business practices, including complying with all applic- Th en entry-level and semi-skilled workers, which would able employment, labour, immigration, health and safety include kitchen helpers, food prep, light-duty cleaners, laws and regulations." truck drivers — those kinds of semi-skilled workers — What independent verification of representations would account for 15 percent of our nominations. made by employers are done to ascertain that employers who seek to benefi t from this program are, in fact, good B. Ralston: Just so we're clear, then, the actual total is employers? As the minister will be aware, there are, on about 4,000? It's 15 percent, say, of 4,000, which would occasion, people who abuse the program. be 600 workers. Is that right? [1740]

Hon. S. Bond: Th e percentages that I attributed were Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, whenever someone is look- based on 2013 nominations. At that time, we only had ing to recruit from off shore, there are a number of things 3,800. For 2014 those numbers will be based on 4,150. that are checked. Th at would be recruitment eff orts — that is critical — and wages that they are paying would be B. Ralston: Just so it doesn't become a private corres- another critical item that would be checked and validated. pondence or communication between the minister and We also look at risk. So we look at where there might my offi ce, the minister is committing, then, to release be more risk, and in that case, there would be a more publicly the total number of actual occupations selected rigorous process even yet from the one that is done more under this program in each year? Th e NOC categoriza- generally. In that case, things that would be looked at tion, as the staff will advise, is very specifi c. Th ere are sev- would consider payroll records, looking at whether or eral thousand of them. You get a fairly good idea of what not people are being paid overtime — all of those things occupations were being selected under this program. that would try to reduce the risk in ensuring these pro- [1735] cesses are followed. I just want to confi rm on the record that that is the in- Th ere is a process. Th e federal government, obviously, tention of the minister and that that information will be also looks at a number of issues, but we look at recruit- provided publicly for anyone who chooses to read the ment eff orts to make sure they have made an eff ort to transcript and look for that information. look for British Columbians, Canadians, fi rst and wages that they're paying. Th en we look at a subset in terms of Hon. S. Bond: To be clear to the member opposite, as their degree of risk. Are there employers who present a I said earlier, I am looking for a way to make these public. higher degree of risk? We would then look at their pay- But I also need to work within the parameters of the fed- roll records and more specifi c data around overtime, etc. eral program. I'm not aware of whether there's an issue with that. What I am prepared to do, as I always am in B. Ralston: Presumably, there are on occasion com- estimates, is share the information as a response to the plaints. If an employer is investigated and found to have request from the member directly. I'm happy to do that abused the program, fi rst of all, where is the name of that while I continue. employer published, and where is it publicly accessible? 3834 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

Secondly, are they then denied further access to the pro- 100, four allocations; and so on up. gram? I believe in other provinces there are provisions Is there any limitation on the number of provincial to that eff ect. In Alberta, for example, I understand that nominees that any one employer may employ in a cal- may be the case. I'm interested in enforcement and pub- endar year? licity that's directed to people who abuse the program. [1755] [1745-1750] Hon. S. Bond: I would like to, fi rst of all, agree with Hon. S. Bond: Obviously, any time that a complaint the member opposite. I would certainly hope that, in or- is fi led, we investigate to ensure that employers are treat- der to earn landed immigrant status, workers don't tol- ing workers appropriately in British Columbia. Th e most erate or accept bad or abusive behaviour by employers. I common concern is about the appropriate payment to certainly hope that's not the case. We have a role to play the person who is working for the employer. in ensuring, when employers do behave badly, that that We do not publicly post, and we're unaware…. I don't should certainly be the last time that they are able to know whether there's some confusion on my part or the bring workers into our country. member's part. I'm certainly, at this point — or my team Alberta does have a formula. We're not aware of any is — unaware of PNP complaints or a list related to the other jurisdiction. I'm advised that…. Our staff is not public disclosure of employers regarding PNP. aware of any other jurisdiction that has a formula. Certainly, on the temporary foreign worker side there What we do is look at the pattern individually for the is a registry in Manitoba and there is a mechanism in employers. We look at the number that they have cur- Alberta which we are currently looking at — whether or rently. We look at whether or not there are signifi cant not British Columbia would adopt one or both or a hy- increases. More importantly, we look at retention — brid of those. But that is more related to the temporary whether or not there's been a successful engagement with foreign worker program. that employee. Admittedly, we use more discretion than Th ere is also an opportunity for the employer, if it is a they would with the Alberta formula. wage-related issue, to fi x that issue. And we do, in cases So there is not a formula in place. But we do review where it appears the employer was either unaware or…. the cases, look at patterns and would be, obviously, pay- Th ere is an opportunity provided to the employer to fi x ing attention to the increasing numbers and would look the wage issue. Having said that, there are cases also at it from that perspective. where we do not proceed with applications and would not continue to proceed with a particular employer based B. Ralston: I now want to turn to a few questions, in on their record. the time that remains, about the provincial aspect of the So there is a complaints process. We do investigate. temporary foreign worker program. In the Globe and Employers, if it is a wage-related issue in particular, are Mail there was a link to what's called the integrity div- given the opportunity to fi x that problem, to protect ision of the temporary foreign worker program, Human workers and make sure that they are being paid appro- Resources and Skills Development Canada. It's about 75 priately. pages, with 80 employers per page, so it's thousands and Again, we certainly, at this point, do not publish those thousands of them. Th ese are only in British Columbia. names. My staff advised me that they are unaware as to In that list, which I have here, there are a number of whether other jurisdictions publish names on the immi- public sector employers. Just let me read out some of the gration side, the PNP side. Certainly, that is beginning to ones I've selected to the minister for her comment: the be the case on the temporary foreign worker side. Minister of Children and Family Development; Northern Health Authority; Northern Lights College; the PHSA; B. Ralston: Well, we'll deal with the temporary foreign B.C. Cancer Agency; Providence Health Care; Provincial workers. I have a couple questions there before we end. Health Services Authority; Provincial Health Services It may very well be that people don't complain because Authority, B.C. Women's Hospital; Provincial Health the prospect at the end of a successful completion here is Services Authority, B.C. Women's Hospital and Health landed immigrant status and people are prepared simply Centre; Public Guardian and Trustee, Province of British to suck up a certain amount of abuse just to get landed Columbia. immigrant status — which may be the reality, although is another one, and the the unfortunate reality in some cases. University of British Columbia and Th ompson Rivers In the Alberta program…. Th is is what they call the University. At UBC there are a number of departments: immigrant nominee program. For example, in the food UBC, classics; UBC, department of psychiatry; UBC, an- and beverage service and room attendants they have what thropology; UBC, sociology. Th ere are various depart- they call a maximum number of allocations per calendar ments at UBC — about 25 or 30 departments and the year. For example, in an establishment that has one to 50 University of British Columbia counselling service. rooms, you get two allocations per calendar year; 51 to Also, the University of Northern British Columbia; Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3835

the University of Victoria; the University of Victoria, program or the academic program. Th ere are intercom- NEPTUNE; Vancouver Coastal Health Authority; pany temporary foreign workers — 5,363 of them — em- Vancouver Coastal Health Authority, psychology ployed by a company in the source company in Canada, internship program; Vancouver Community College; defi ned for a very specifi c project. Th ey bring established Vancouver Island Health Authority. leaders and specialists to develop new business oppor- Can the minister…? I know there's no registration tunities in Canada. Th ere is a very signifi cant number required, as there is in Manitoba, where employers are of categories. required to register so there would be some provincial When we go to low-skilled, which is where the mem- awareness. Is the minister at all aware of what appears ber and, rightly, British Columbians are most concerned, to be extensive hiring of temporary foreign workers by they represent 3 percent of our temporary foreign work- public authorities? ers. As of December 1, 2012, there were 2,186 low-skilled [1800] workers. Th at would include…. And I really think the Obviously, there are conceivably many legitimate ex- category title is unfortunate, but that is what it is called. planations for that — visiting professors or graduate stu- Lower-skilled occupations include truck drivers, food dents who take over things, researchers who come from service and heavy-equipment operators. other countries for a certain period of time to work in, Th e smallest percentage of temporary foreign workers say, the Cancer Agency. I'm not suggesting, by any means, in British Columbia today is lower-skilled workers. As of that all of these are illegitimate. I just was rather surprised December 1, 2012, out of 74,345, there were 2,186 in the by the number and the range of people who appear to low-skilled category. be temporary foreign workers on this federal document who are employed by publicly funded authorities here in B. Ralston: Well, I appreciate the minister's attempt to British Columbia. explain that. It does appear that some suppositions are If the priority is, as the minister says, British being made. Th e minister did mention earlier that the Columbians fi rst, Canadians second — I suppose land- Manitoba act, the Worker Recruitment and Protection ed Canadians and landed immigrants — and then and Act…. I have here a document from their website: only then would one move to temporary foreign work- "Recruitment of foreign workers employer registration ers…. First of all, is the minister aware of this? Th en I application for certifi cate of registration." Th e informa- have some follow-up questions. tion is collected, and it's available. [1805] Hon. S. Bond: Th is is one of the challenges that I cer- Does the minister not see that this is, at the very least, tainly have faced in question period, because taking the given the very difficulty the minister has had in ex- time to describe the answers to this is complicated. It's plaining why a vast range of public authorities are em- easy to say that there are signifi cant numbers of tempor- ploying temporary foreign workers — albeit some, I'm ary foreign workers in our province, but there are cat- sure, for entirely legitimate reasons…? Th e inability to egories, for which the total of temporary foreign workers explain it other than by supposition seems to be a real in British Columbia today is — well, this would have failing, in my view. Does that encourage the minister to been as of December 2012 — 74,345. consider what is the case in Manitoba, where employers, Th ere are legitimate and appropriate categories, I'm fully within provincial jurisdiction, would be required sure. I can't speak to the one at UBC or SFU or other to register? public entities, but there are categories which capture Th en there would be some kind of idea and ability to many of those public institutions, I am sure, and they disclose publicly in a meaningful way what categories are all legitimately captured under the title of temporary these temporary foreign workers fall into and perhaps foreign workers. demonstrate to the public, who I think at this point are I have mentioned one previously, which is the youth fairly skeptical, that this isn't simply a low-wage policy reciprocal employment program. Th at is 29,698 of those for employers to undercut the wages of Canadian citizens 74,000-plus workers. Th at's 39 percent. Th e next-highest and landed immigrants but in fact serves a legitimate category would be academic. In this case, it is for profes- purpose in our economy. sors and research-related positions which brings qual- ity…. It is about facilitating knowledge transfer, so it Hon. S. Bond: Th e diffi culty in explaining…. It was happens around the world. An LMO is not required be- only referenced because in question period you get one cause this is a permit that is tied to the employer, and minute to try to explain how there are 74,000 people there are legitimate reasons for bringing academics into spread across a number of categories, which, by the way, our province — 12 percent of the temporary foreign would include agriculture, live-in caregivers, high skilled, workers in our province. intercompany, spouses. In fact, 7 percent of our tem- We're now up to 51 percent of temporary foreign work- porary foreign workers are related to family unifi cation. ers either captured in the youth reciprocal employment When you think about that number, that's over 5,000. 3836 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 12, 2014

I'm acutely aware of the public's interest in transpar- If we have to step that up I'm fi ne with it." ency. In fact, that's why some time ago I asked my staff to First of all, a comment on that. look at both the Manitoba model and the Alberta model, [1810] but also being aware of the fact that the federal govern- Secondly, again, I looked on Work B.C., employment ment is in the process of making additional change. standards and statistics B.C. Could the minister direct I have asked for a number of options to be presented me to the location where those employers who have vio- to me about whether or not we look at a registry, whether lated the Employment Standards Act in these circum- or not we look at, as I said, a hybrid model with some of stances — where their names are public, and the fi ne or Alberta's work. Th at work is underway and has been for other assessment they've been given is published in or- quite some time. I think that additional transparency is der that bad employers might at least have the sanction important for British Columbians. But I also think it is of some minimal public notoriety? I think that's a well- critical that…. established principle in criminal law and a general deter- I absolutely understand the member opposite's con- rence — that the person's name be held up publicly so cern, as I have a number of colleagues who have spoken that they might experience the opprobrium of the com- to me about this matter from the opposition. Th ere is munity around them. also the need for us to recognize that there are legitim- So those two questions: comment on Mr. Kenney and ate circumstances in British Columbia where tempor- Mr. Bell and what steps have been taken since January ary foreign workers may be required. Not that they are 2013 to do that; and secondly, just the location where — I required or that they should be required — it's that they presume there are occasions when this happens — those may be required. names might be found. What is incumbent upon the federal government pro- gram and the provinces working in collaboration with Hon. S. Bond: We do not publish the name of employ- them is to ensure the program is rigorous, that there ers. It is something that I have asked my staff to look at has to be demonstrated need and that when an employ- — not this aft ernoon but in the last number of months. It er takes advantage of workers, there are consequences is currently not done. It is not the practice, and we have for that. not done that. My view is that it is British Columbians and Canadians As I said to the member opposite, I'm very interested fi rst — absolutely. But I also think we need to be prag- in the Manitoba and Alberta model. We're having a look matic. We've had mayors from northern communities at whether or not we should register employees. In terms and we've had others speaking up over the last number of Minister Bell's comments, I don't disagree with him of weeks saying, yes, we need to crack down. Yes, we need that looking at the $500 fi ne is something that is being to make sure that abuse is not tolerated. But there will reviewed. I can't speak to what happened aft er he made be times in British Columbia where there is a legitimate those comments. need for temporary foreign workers. But certainly, as the minister now responsible, what It's a matter of fi nding the process that works most ef- I've asked for is…. Th e federal government is in the pro- fectively to ensure that abuses are minimized and that cess of making a series of changes. In fact, they've already there is a rigorous process in place to make sure that it is made some. Th ey've announced they're going to make a last resort, not a fi rst resort. more. So what I've asked my staff to do is look at a suite of options that look at what exists today, what the federal B. Ralston: Th e minister has spoken about the need government changes mean in terms of…. to crack down. I think this has been quoted to the min- Th is is a federally managed program, and I am not for ister before in question period. She didn't make a com- one moment sidestepping the fact that the province can ment then. Obviously, I understand the limitations of and should and does have a role in making sure that our question period, so I want to give her an opportunity to employers understand their expectation. respond here. [1815] I'm quoting from the federal immigration minis- Th ere is a large body of work being done that is looking ter, Jason Kenney, who said in the Vancouver Sun of at the very kinds of things the member has spoken about December 20, speaking of the fi nes in the Employment and that Minister Bell commented on: the fi nes, making Standards Act: "Th e sanction appears to be quite modest the names public, all of those kinds of things. We're do- in British Columbia. I would encourage them to consider ing that in the context of what is a federal program and in the future increasing the fi ne to send a strong message." a series of changes that are underway. Th e then minister, Pat Bell, who the minister knows I do want to say this. I think that employers in British very well, as do we all from his time here in the Legislature, Columbia need to understand that if they are interested in the Vancouver Sun, January 30, 2013, said he would or fi nd it necessary to seek a temporary foreign worker consider increasing fi nes and there have been no changes in our province, they need to clearly demonstrate the announced. "As a fi rst off ence, $500 seems pretty modest. need, they need to expressly go through the rigorous pro- Monday, May 12, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3837

cess, and if they decide that they want to abuse that last Th ere is a pathway to permanent residency here. resort for skilled workers in this province, there should In fact, when I look at the numbers…. When we look be consequences. at 2011, for example, 18 percent of new permanent resi- I have no problem. Th e federal government is now dents were previously temporary foreign workers. If you talking about blacklisting employers. We are certainly look at economic immigrants, in 2011, 23 percent of looking at, right now, whether or not that is a potential economic immigrants were previously temporary for- here in British Columbia, but we should be clear: abus- eign workers. We would much prefer to see a temporary es of the system should not be tolerated. We're currently foreign worker on a pathway to becoming a permanent exploring where we fi t in that federal program and in resident of British Columbia, so that is diff erent. the context of what has emerged over the last number [1820] of months. Th ere is a requirement, in our case, for a temporary foreign worker…. An employer has the obligation to B. Ralston: Just judging from the hour, this will likely actually physically return that person, by fl ight, to their be the last question. Th e minister will be relieved to hear country of origin, so there are some diff erent expecta- that, perhaps, and so will her staff . tions. Th ere is a deadline looming. Eff ective April 2011 nearly I'm not at all dismissing the concerns expressed by the all temporary foreign workers were subject to the four- member opposite, but there has been a great deal of dis- year cumulative duration on the length of time they may cussion at the federal level with ministers from across the work in Canada. Now, there are exceptions — NOC country about the evolution of these programs. I am sure A-category workers, seasonal agricultural worker pro- that when we next meet again, those will be even more gram and applicants for permanent residence who have heightened than they were the last time. received approval-in-principle, which includes live-in I can tell the member opposite that one of the things caregivers. that immigration ministers across the country agree on Th ose exceptions aside, people who reach that four- is that our focus needs to be on economic immigration, year limit are then obliged to leave Canada for four years. on high-skilled workers where there are shortages. Th at One can look south of the border and perhaps surmise certainly has been a discussion with Minister Alexander, that some of the people who are asked to leave, who come who is the person responsible for the immigration part to the end of the four years and in fact lose their legal of the program. status, will go underground. Th ey will stay here without I appreciate the member opposite's questions. legal status. In fact, there's a whole host of people, mil- lions in the United States, who — fi rst of all, sometimes Vote 30: ministry operations, $183,688,000 — ap- enter the country illegally — originally have legal status, proved. lose it and don't leave the country. What discussions is the minister having with the feder- Vote 31: labour programs, $14,697,000 — approved. al minister for the possibility that people reach this four- year cumulative duration limit, are no longer permitted Hon. S. Bond: I move the committee rise, report reso- to be in Canada as temporary foreign workers and fail to lution of Votes 30 and 31 of the Ministry of Jobs, Tourism leave? What contingency plans are being made to deal and Skills Training and ask leave to sit again. with that possibility? Motion approved. Hon. S. Bond: While there is a concern, the circum- stances are diff erent in Canada and in British Columbia. Th e committee rose at 6:22 p.m.

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