Third Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 6

the honourable bill barisoff, speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Third Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Don McRae Attorney General...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Environment...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Thomson Minister of Health...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Social Development and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. Harry Bloy Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Douglas Horne Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James (on leave) Clerk Assistant and Acting Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Harry Bloy Black, Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Hon. Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Coell, Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Thompson...... Kevin Krueger Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East...... Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hawes, Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster...... Dawn Black Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast...... Gary Coons Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Island...... Claire Trevena Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Iain Black Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond East...... Linda Reid MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich North and the Islands...... Murray Coell McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Saanich South...... Lana Popham McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McRae, Hon. Don (L)...... Comox Valley Skeena...... Robin Austin Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Penner, Hon. Barry, QC (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver-Fairview...... Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview...... Kash Heed Simpson, Bob (Ind.)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Stewart, Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver-Langara...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Stilwell, Dr. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Point Grey...... Vacant Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Quilchena...... Colin Hansen Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Vacant...... Vancouver–Point Grey Westside-Kelowna...... Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 6835

Tributes...... 6835 Serpentine Enhancement Society D. Hayer

Introductions by Members...... 6835

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 6836 Health care auxiliaries V. Huntington Lions Gate Hospital Foundation fundraising for mental health and addictions facility J. McIntyre Protection of water resources D. Routley Richmond Yacht Club R. Howard Volunteer firefighters and first responders B. Simpson Experience the Fraser project M. Dalton

Oral Questions...... 6838 Funding for criminal justice system A. Dix Hon. B. Penner L. Krog J. Horgan Contract process for casino project on lands adjacent to B.C. Place S. Chandra Herbert Hon. P. Bell S. Simpson First Nations consultation on Enbridge oil pipeline proposal S. Fraser Hon. R. Coleman Government preparedness for oil spills R. Fleming Hon. T. Lake Impact of harmonized sales tax elimination on restaurant industry B. Ralston Hon. K. Falcon

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply...... 6843 Estimates: Ministry of Social Development (continued) J. Kwan Hon. H. Bloy S. Simpson V. Huntington M. Elmore Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 6857 Estimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General (continued) K. Corrigan Hon. S. Bond R. Austin C. Trevena J. Brar H. Bains N. Simons 6835

TUESDAY, MAY 10, 2011 ganized the event; Sharon Hysert; Dr. Betty Donaldson; Ethel Homberg, Laura and Nelson Cheyne; David and The House met at 1:33 p.m. Beverley Pendlebury; Cynthia Conway, who came here from England; Elsie Marks; Ron and Pat Richardson; [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Bill and Bev Lambeth. I'd like to have the House wish them welcome. Routine Business P. Pimm: Well, I only have one guest to introduce to- Introductions by Members day, but it's the most important guest in my life. Joining us today in the gallery is my wife, Jody. I'd like the House L. Reid: I have two introductions today. I am pleased to help me make her welcome. to introduce to this House Hannah Wylie, who recently graduated in political science from Carleton University Tributes and served as a chief page in the Senate. That would be fascinating. Hannah will be staying in Victoria this sum- SERPENTINE ENHANCEMENT SOCIETY mer and is interested in applying for a job that could utilize her political skills. Would the House please give D. Hayer: The Tynehead Hatchery, which is oper- her a warm British Columbia welcome. ated by the Serpentine Enhancement Society, held its I also have the pleasure this afternoon of introducing open house on May 8. It was attended by hundreds and a group of Western Washington University students hundreds of community members of all ages, from chil- who are visiting from Bellingham. They're here today dren to students to seniors to many of our pioneers, on to learn about our Canadian system of governance as Mother's Day. part of their fourth-year political science course entitled The society was helping the community to release the politics of Canada. As the university celebrates its thousands of salmon into Surrey's Serpentine River. Some of the volunteers who helped with that included 40th anniversary of the Center for Canadian-American Glenn Wright, Ebb Budgell, Julie Budgell, Bruce Easton, Studies, it is fitting that these students take a day to learn Chris Hamming, Dave Woods, Carol Wright, Frank firsthand inB ritish Columbia how parliamentary demo- Marshalock, Laura Hagar-Gaube, Cathryn Kyle and cracy works. They are accompanied by their professor, founder Emil Quinn, who started the foundation with Dr. Butch Kamena, and I'd ask the House to please make his own money. them feel warm in British Columbia. I would ask all in the House to recognize all these great volunteers, who do a great job for our community. C. James: I have four guests in the gallery today — well, five guests, one very small guest. Introductions by Members

Mr. Speaker: No grandchildren? J. Kwan: I am very delighted to introduce two very important people from my community. I rarely get C. James: No grandchildren to introduce today from guests, so I get very excited when they come to visit me. in this Legislature. We have Terry Hunter and his son We have two guests visiting us from Japan: Mr. Shigemi Montana Hunter visiting us today. Harada, who is a local village councillor in Japan; and Terry, of course, people will know. He's one of the his wife, Michiko Harada. They're here in Victoria to key movers and shakers in the artistic community. He visit their daughter Mami and their son-in-law James is very much involved with the Vancouver Moving Harada-Down and their brand-new grandson, Biko, Theatre and of course puts on the best festival in the city who was born on April 20. So would the House please of Vancouver, called the Heart of the City Festival, in the make them very welcome. Downtown Eastside. [1335] Would the House please make them feel very welcome. L. Popham: I have a gaggle of students up in the gal- lery, and they are from South Island Distance Education Hon. S. Cadieux: I had the honour of having lunch School, otherwise known as SIDES. Please make them today with the Minister of Finance and two constitu- welcome. ents from his riding of Surrey-Cloverdale. Wayne and Arlene Groome are here this afternoon, and I'd like to Hon. D. McRae: I have a cornucopia of guests from make them welcome. the Comox Valley. I had the good people from Probus come to the Legislature today, and I was able to give them S. Chandra Herbert: I am very excited to welcome a tour. I'd like to say welcome to Heather Philip, who or- students from King George Secondary School from 6836 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Vancouver–West End, their teacher Sherry Preston and LIONS GATE HOSPITAL FOUNDATION her mother, Melanie Preston. I had the great privilege FUNDRAISING FOR MENTAL of working with both of them in a circus — not the HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS FACILITY Legislature but a circus. Would everybody please make them feel very wel- J. McIntyre: On the heels of Mental Health Week, I come. They will be joining us shortly. rise to pay tribute to President Judy Savage and the Lions Gate Hospital Foundation as they officially em- S. Simpson: Joining in with my colleague the member bark on their largest-ever capital campaign to raise for Vancouver–West End, I particularly want to extend $25.5 million towards a new mental health and addic- a welcome to my constituency assistant Rachel Garrick, tions facility that will be adjacent to Lions Gate Hospital whose son is a student at King George and is here with and which will also include dedicated teaching space for us. Hope you'll make Michael welcome. the UBC Faculty of Medicine and, at long last, a nine- bay permanent home for the B.C. Ambulance Service in Statements North Vancouver. (Standing Order 25B) After five years of planning, the new four-storey, 26- bed facility will replace an antiquated, dilapidated 1929 HEALTH CARE AUXILIARIES structure with state-of-the-art integrated treatment, providing both in- and out-patient care. Now that the V. Huntington: May 10 is proclaimed Health Care foundation has completed its campaign, ably led by Auxiliary Day. It is the day we recognize the ongoing Joanne Houssian, for the much-needed and beautifully contributions made by the British Columbia Association designed North Shore Hospice, this volunteer organ- of Health Care Auxiliaries to improving the quality of ization is committed to raising additional funds from health care available to all British Columbians. our generous community under campaign chair Clark Every year B.C. hospital auxiliaries dedicate thou- Quintin's leadership. The centre will serve the one in four sands of hours to upholding the time-honoured tradition North Shore residents that will be affected by some form of service to patients and families. Without compensa- of mental illness or addictions or both, many of whom tion or complaint, auxiliary members work tirelessly to typically do not seek care or are afraid to ask for help. benefit our hospitals and communities. Auxiliary mem- Through the Lions Gate Hospital Foundation's dedi- bers provide many valuable hospital services, including cated efforts, we will soon have the opportunity to reduce the roving library, information and way-finding pro- the stigma associated with mental health and addictions grams, lifeline services and music therapy. and begin to better care for our families, our friends and They also make major financial contributions to our colleagues, with compassion, in a safe, bright, caring hospitals, regularly providing million-dollar pledges for environment. program and hospital improvements. Funding these Construction on the new centre is expected to be contributions is not easy, and auxiliary members are underway in summer 2011, with completion scheduled found running thrift stores, gift shops, lotto booths, for the end of 2013. I'm hoping that all members of the cafés and pledge drives across the province. House will join me in thanking Judy and the board of [1340] Lions Gate Hospital Foundation for their ongoing com- Keeping our hospitals equipped is an ongoing task, mitment to enhancing the quality of life and inspiring and our auxiliaries give precious time and money, pro- hope for all of us on the North Shore. viding the comfort items and medical equipment needed by patients and their families. These dedicated efforts PROTECTION OF WATER RESOURCES are warmly received by families, patients, staff and phys- icians alike. D. Routley: As we face the unavoidable and immedi- On a personal note, I am pleased to announce today ate changes that climate change brings to our lives, water that my local Delta Hospital Auxiliary Society is un- is an obvious focus. We think of sea level increases. In veiling their latest contribution to Delta Hospital — a fact, yesterday, May 9, the Ministry of Forests, Lands $700,000 digital mammography unit. This comes on the and Natural Resource Operations released technical re- heels of a recent $1 million contribution toward the re- ports to update B.C.'s guidelines for sea dike design and development of the emergency room. On top of this and management of coastal flood hazard land use to include so much more, the Delta Auxiliary provides eight $1,000 consideration of sea level rise. bursaries each year to local medical students. However, we less frequently think of the implications On this Health Care Auxiliary Day, join me in thank- for our groundwater resource. In Canada we possess 7 ing our valued partners by recognizing them and percent of the world's total renewable fresh water supply. honouring them for their timeless commitment to In B.C. groundwater provides 23 percent of our popula- health care in B.C. tion with their drinking water. Groundwater provides 9 Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6837

percent of the total water consumption in our province. Bullock, Brian Morris, Dick Reitenbach, Garrett Weir, In B.C. groundwater consumption accounts for 25 per- Steve Triance and Greg Halsey-Brandt. I invite all mem- cent of the total groundwater use in Canada. bers of the House to congratulate the Richmond Yacht In the mid–Vancouver Island region we occupy and Club on another successful year. draw from very low producing aquifers, with low per- meability and low porosity. That means this type of rock VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS has a very limited ability to store and produce water and AND FIRST RESPONDERS that when water is removed from this type of aquifer, it can take a long time to recharge or refill. B. Simpson: Every year the Professional Fire Fighters As we see reduced flows in our rivers and reduced Association conducts its information lobby with MLAs. storage in our lakes and snowpacks, partially caused That always reminds me how much of our province is by the effects of climate change, we also see increased protected and served by volunteer firefighters and first failures of wells and water shortages. Our groundwater responders. These volunteers lead busy professional and faces many threats — on the demand side or use side, in- work lives, have family and other community obligations, creased residential development and industrial use; on and yet they make the time to train, practise and provide the supply side, reduced flows, snowpacks and the - ef critical services to many communities in our province. fects of climate change. The entire riding of Cariboo North is served by these [1345] volunteers, and I enjoy every opportunity I'm given to at- It is our responsibility, as citizens and at all levels of tend their annual recognition dinners and let them know government, to make sound and responsible decisions directly how much their extra efforts and community- about our water, reduce our consumption and create mindedness are appreciated. Volunteer firefighters and sustainable policies that recognize the increased threats first responders literally provide neighbour-to-neighbour facing this most essential of natural resources. protection, care and comfort on shoestring budgets out of the goodness of their hearts and their deep sense of RICHMOND YACHT CLUB commitment to their community. They also have to be consummate fundraisers to en- R. Howard: Many groups make my city of Richmond sure they have the equipment and training they need such a wonderful place to live. One of them is the to provide the professional level of service people have Richmond Yacht Club, which just held its annual sail- come to expect from them and that they want to con- past ceremony on Saturday. tinue to provide. Growing up in Richmond, you're certainly taught to This year my office worked with the Ministry of respect the river and the ocean, and for many Richmond Health and the Solicitor General's office to ensure that residents, boating is a passion, making the Richmond first responders would not have to add to their fund- Yacht Club an important part of many people's lives. The raising burden the cost to replace consumable first-aid yacht club was chartered in 1963 and in 1975 moved to supplies when they attended the scene of an accident or its current location on the Middle Arm of the Fraser emergency health call. River. The first responders in Cariboo North appreci- The yacht club has always been family-oriented. My ate the government's decision to continue to have B.C. family are also members. Hi to Mom and Mel. I am Ambulance replenish their supplies on an as-used basis. pleased to say it is also community-oriented, holding It means their fundraising efforts can continue to go to events for the greater community to enjoy and making maintaining or enhancing the level of service they pro- contributions to important local charities. vide to their communities. In fact, another major event they hold every December Volunteer firefighters and first responders are a critical is the Parade of Lights, where large crowds brave the part of B.C.'s public safety infrastructure, so government weather and gather along the river to watch the festive has a special obligation to ensure ongoing dialogue and parade. The kids get to witness Santa's arrival, and dona- consultation with them before legislative or regulatory tions are collected for the Richmond Food Bank. changes are made that could impact their ability to pro- The Parade of Lights, Santa's breakfast, the annual vide professional services. sail-past, the dragon boat association, Abreast in a Boat, I ask the members of this House to join me in rec- power squadron and radio licensing courses and the ognizing the valuable contribution volunteer firefighters year-round dedication to encourage and develop pas- and first responders make to British Columbia. sion for boating make this organization an important Richmond institution. EXPERIENCE THE FRASER PROJECT Thank you to the hard-working community-minded board, better known as the Bridge — Commodore M. Dalton: I am pleased to inform my colleagues Robert Poburko and Bridge members Mary Ellen of a great project that represents a true collaboration 6838 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

between the province of British Columbia, the Fraser that are required for the courts to operate in a safe man- Valley regional district, Metro Vancouver and a number ner, and that remains our number one priority. of other key partners, including the federal government and local First Nations. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a The Experience the Fraser project or ETF has been supplemental. developed to celebrate heritage and enhance recreation outdoor opportunities along one of British Columbia's A. Dix: Well, everybody in the justice system knows most picturesque natural assets, the Fraser River. ETF there are not enough sheriffs and there are not enough will showcase the lower Fraser River corridor and judges. Everybody knows that. The government has promote the region as one of the world's great river des- failed and left us behind in this regard, and there are tinations. It will connect both residents and visitors to real costs to families as a result, and to all of us, when the many waterfront communities and natural features justice is denied. There are 2,000 cases pending in the along the river. criminal justice system. So I wanted to ask the Attorney [1350] General whether he recognizes those costs involved in With over 160 kilometres of recreation and cultural his inaction in dealing with those problems and what heritage amenities stretching from Hope to the Salish steps he is going to take to address the situation. Sea, Experience the Fraser will join existing trails and infrastructure, including the Trans Canada Trail, with Hon. B. Penner: Another day and another commit- exciting new opportunities that will enhance active re- ment from the opposition to spend yet more tax dollars creation, cultural appreciation and tourism. at the very same time they're leading a campaign that Experience the Fraser has gathered a great deal of will take $3 billion away from government revenues. It's momentum in recent months, and the first of many another clear example of NDP hypocrisy. on-the-ground demonstration projects has been well As the Leader of the Opposition is leading a campaign that will deprive government revenues of $3 billion in received by the public. One such project involves a tax revenue over the next couple of years, every single new Trans Canada Trail segment in Langley that will day he turns around in here, in this chamber, and says to help connect the Golden Ears Bridge to Fort Langley. government: "Just spend more tax money." It's just like Yet another project, the B.C. Spirit Squares initiative in the 1990s — tax, borrow and spend. That's the legacy of Mission, has created a new waterfront gathering place the NDP under the former chief of staff to the Premier and trail segments that provides a spectacular river view and now Leader of the Opposition. of Mount Baker. ETF will continue to add trails and features along the Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- Fraser River, with strong support of project partners. ther supplemental. I encourage my colleagues here today and all British Columbians to get out one day soon to experience the A. Dix: I know that the Attorney General was cam- Fraser. paigning. I know he's all non-partisan as Attorney General now, but he was campaigning at the time. He Oral Questions and his colleagues said the deficit at that time, the deficit at the time of the last election, was $495 million. They FUNDING FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM missed — oops — by $3 billion. Now they're trying to justify misleading people on A. Dix: My question is to the Attorney General. Two the HST on the basis of their incompetence in man- weeks ago in Victoria two courtrooms were closed. Last aging public finances. But the people are paying the week in Kelowna two more were closed. Eight families price here for what the president of the Crown Counsel seeking justice were denied because, in that case, there Association calls "a systematic stripping of the criminal were no sheriffs. In Kelowna, Judge Cartwright didn't justice system." That's what the president of the Crown pull any punches. She said: "It's ridiculous to run court- Counsel Association calls it. rooms this way." Does the Attorney General agree with [1355] Judge Cartwright? Does he not think there's a price when we lose crim- inal cases in the courts? Does he not think there's a price Hon. B. Penner: We do take safety and security in the when justice is denied? Will he not recognize that there's courthouses seriously, and that's always the paramount a crisis in the courts and do something about it? concern. Obviously, the judge didn't feel comfortable proceeding in the absence of a sheriff.O n any given day Hon. B. Penner: Staff in the Ministry of Attorney there could be fluctuations in the caseload, or there can General work hard every day to deliver top value for be increased rates of absenteeism with the sheriff ser- every dollar spent, something the NDP doesn't appreci- vices. But overall, we work hard to provide the sheriffs ate, but it's true. Every single day in this House I listen Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6839

to individual members on the other side say: "Just spend spending in health and education is not enough. If those more money." They never answer the question: "Where budgets keep going up, it obviously puts pressure on the is that money supposed to come from?" rest of government, unless their answer is just to borrow Record spending in the Ministry of Health. Record and tax some more. spending in the Ministry of Education. Increased fund- ing for Advanced Education. Every single day, though, Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. the NDP's answer is: "Just spend more." Meanwhile they're campaigning against the tax measure that's L. Krog: Well, that's a remarkable response from the bringing more revenue to the province and is stronger Attorney General in a government that was happily writ- for the economy. That is more NDP math, and it just ing off $6 million in legal fees for Liberal insiders. doesn't add up. You know, hon. Speaker, the government has been proud of its record on prosecuting drunk drivers. Well, I L. Krog: I think I heard the Attorney General just tell want to tell this House that in a brown envelope I got four this House that he doesn't think justice is worth a dollar cases out of my city alone, Nanaimo — drunk-driving or two in British Columbia. I think I heard him say that cases dismissed because of delays in our judicial system. justice doesn't matter in British Columbia. In 2010…. If the Attorney General thinks that's the appropriate way to handle justice in British Columbia, perhaps he should Interjections. step aside and let someone into his position who can go to cabinet and get the resources that are necessary. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1400] Member, just take your seat for a second. It is absolutely unprecedented in this province to hear judges speaking out in case after case after case, talking Interjections. about the lack of resources to prosecute the crimin- als, to let families have their cases heard, to let people Mr. Speaker: Members. with small claims issues be dealt with in the courts Continue, Member. appropriately. This Attorney General had better step up to the plate L. Krog: In September 2010 his predecessor received and solve this problem. What's he going to do today? Is a report, Justice Delayed. It condemned the lack of judi- he going to fill the vacancies — again, yes or no? cial resources. The report was posted on the Provincial Court website in December — 17 judges short across Hon. B. Penner: We've heard, yet again, the NDP's the province. answer to everything is to just spend more money, and The Attorney General and his predecessor have had taxes and deficit be damned. Well, there is an alternative nearly eight months to remedy the situation. What is he approach. It's to live within a budget and look for other going to do? Is he going to announce the appointment of ways to address delays in the justice system, other than the needed Provincial Court judges today — yes or no? just always spending more money that comes at the ex- pense of taxpayers. Hon. B. Penner: As I indicated to the member when The member raises impaired driving. Under our gov- he last asked me this question about two weeks ago, we ernment, we've increased the penalties for driving .05 have appointed nine new judges in the past year. However, or more. In the first few months, several thousand cases it does not come without a cost, which is something the fewer have been approved to go to court because we're NDP opposition always wants to overlook. dealing with them quicker on the roadside. The cost of hiring and equipping a judge is not just The proof is in the pudding. Not only are we saving the average salary of $231,000 plus pension benefits and thousands of cases from clogging the courts; we're sav- other benefits. In order to equip the judges properly so ing lives with a 40 percent decrease in fatalities in the that they can function, the total cost to the Ministry of first three months that the policy was in place. That Attorney General is about $1.4 million to $1.6 million doesn't cost taxpayers any more money. for each additional judicial appointment. From which ministry, sir, would you suggest we take J. Horgan: Shortage of prosecutors, shortage of judges, the money so that we can hire more judges? Are you sug- shortage of sheriffs.N o shortage of public money to pay gesting money from the Ministry of Health, Ministry of off convicted criminals' legal bills. Education, Ministry of Advanced Education? Will the minister stand in his place as the minister We have a budget that we're working to live within. responsible for the judicial system in British Columbia Like all British Columbians, we have a budget we're try- and give the people of British Columbia some answers ing to stay within. It really rings hollow for members about how he's going to fix it, not yesterday but today of the opposition who, every single day, say that record and tomorrow? 6840 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Hon. B. Penner: As I was already elaborating in my S. Chandra Herbert: Why was B.C. PavCo working last answer, we have already…. Our government has with Paragon on the casino plan at least nine months be- introduced new legislation to add additional penalties fore the expression of interest and the RFP were issued? for over .05, and that's having an effect. Within the first [1405] few months more than 2,500 fewer cases ended up go- ing into the court system because they were being dealt Hon. P. Bell: There's nothing inconsistent between with at the roadside, and that will save time and money the information that was released to the opposition as in the justice system. a result of a freedom-of-information request and my But most importantly, it's saving lives. Early evidence comments last week. In fact, what I said was that there indicates a 40 percent decrease in fatality rates due to were a variety of options discussed during the early years drinking and driving. of PavCo's engagement with the city. There was not a Mr. Speaker, the member is correct. There is more specific focus on a casino or any other specific form of that can be done. It still strikes me as unacceptable that development but that all were under consideration. the average criminal case has seven pretrial appearances before the trial ever starts. So right here in Victoria we Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. have launched a pilot program to try and work with all members of the justice system — the lawyers, the pros- S. Chandra Herbert: The documents are clear. The ecutors and the judiciary — to reduce the number of PavCo-sponsored committee was planning for a casino pretrial appearances so cases can happen sooner and we on the site next to B.C. Place in August 2008. The RFP spend less money. for that site was only put out in April 2009. The minis- ter's statements do not stand up. We said the deal with Paragon and the B.C. Liberal CONTRACT PROCESS FOR CASINO PROJECT insider T. Richard Turner stunk at the time, and it stinks ON LANDS ADJACENT TO B.C. PLACE even worse today. Why did the B.C. Liberals go ahead with a sham RFP process when the documents show S. Chandra Herbert: Questions have been raised that PavCo was already planning to place a large casino about the B.C. Liberals' decision to push for a mega- right next to B.C. Place Stadium? casino next to B.C. Place. Last week in estimates the minister responsible for PavCo told this House that Hon. P. Bell: This site was always conceived of by before the request for expressions of interest and the re- both the city of Vancouver as well as the province of quest for proposals were issued for the site next to B.C. British Columbia as an entertainment district. That's Place…. He said: "There was no discussion of specific- exactly what will be developed on the site. The city re- ally what might go on that site, whether it be a casino or cently approved the move of the Edgewater Casino, if something of another nature." that is deemed to be suitable by the proponent, to this He continued: "Once the request for expression of particular site. We want to create a vibrant entertain- interest and then the request for proposals took place, ment district, and that's exactly what we're going to do. Paragon became the likely proponent. The casino be- came a feature of it, and at that point in time, then, S. Simpson: In March 2009, at exactly the same time PavCo would at times have talked about the casino the request for expressions of interest was being issued, development." the Vancouver assistant director of planning said in an That request for proposals was issued in April 2009 e-mail: "PavCo indicated to us last year that they were and awarded to Paragon weeks later. However, a pack- talking to the casino folks about locating on the stadium age released through a freedom-of-information request site. They were planning the base of their western build- includes an August 2008 issues document from the ing to accommodate the large floor plate." PavCo-sponsored city of Vancouver committee in Clearly, the city knew that PavCo and the casino were charge of planning for the area, which directly contra- talking well before the expressions of interest ever came dicts the minister's statement. out. How come the minister didn't know that, and if he did know it, will he withdraw the comments he made in Mr. Speaker: Question, Member. this House last week through estimates?

S. Chandra Herbert: It refers to a PavCo proposal for Hon. P. Bell: Mr. Speaker, you know, one would think the site that "allows for a very large floor plate filling in al- that any Crown corporation that is designated as de- most the entire infill site to the west of the stadium. This veloping an entertainment district would be considering is to allow for the very large floor plate of the casino." all of its options. The fact that PavCo would consider that does not in any way reflect that they were not con- Mr. Speaker: Pose the question, please, Member. sidering many other options for the site and making Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6841

sure that we were properly prepared going into both the and are, and they will work through the processes with request-for-proposal process as well as the discussions them. I'll tell the member that on one of the actual pipe- with the city of Vancouver. lines that are involved, 16 of the 17 First Nations have What is important, I think, is the fact that the city of already signed on in support of the one particular pipe- Vancouver — the mayor, Mayor Robertson — and I are line. So the member should remember that we will do communicating on a regular basis to determine what the work with First Nations, as we always have and will the right proposal will be for this site. I'm confident that continue to do. we're going to have a proposal that will meet the needs of both the city of Vancouver and the province of British Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Columbia. S. Fraser: I guess Premier Clark appointed a new Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. This comes from the minister that last week demon- S. Simpson: Hon. Speaker, you would think that the strated he doesn't even know the difference between tar B.C. Liberal government would have learned. We've seen sands bitumen and liquid natural gas. The bitumen, that this movie before. The B.C. Rail scandal was all about tar sands stuff, is black and gooey and will ruin eco- fixing the deal for CN under an illusion of an open pro- systems. Natural gas is lighter than air at atmospheric cess. Now we see a situation where a deal gets fixed for temperature. Since he doesn't seem to know that file, I the casino. It's the same process. You'd think the govern- don't think it bodes a lot of confidence in the new file of ment would have learned its lesson. Aboriginal Relations. In order to respect the new relationship, this govern- Interjections. ment must — and I'm going to quote to the minister responsible — "ensure that lands and resources are man- Mr. Speaker: Members. aged in accordance with First Nations laws, knowledge and values." Enbridge is responsible for over 700 spills S. Simpson: Does the minister agree that this process in their operations in the last decade. First Nations have is flawed, and will he investigate? said no. That's no to oil spill industry and yes to a living environment and healthy, thriving fisheries. Hon. P. Bell: I know that business skills on the opposite To the minister responsible: are she and the B.C. side of the House are somewhat limited. You would think Liberal Premier willing to force a tar sands pipeline on that it would be appropriate, when you have some of the northern and coastal First Nations, even in the face of most valuable property in the city of Vancouver in the overwhelming First Nation opposition? province of British Columbia, to pursue all of the options. In fact, from what I can tell, the only business skills that the opposition members have are when they show up to their Hon. R. Coleman: We do know the difference, hon. party offices with brown paper bags full of $10 bills. Member, between oil and natural gas. Both of them [1410] are natural resources in British Columbia that are ac- tually paying for education and health care and social FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION ON programs. ENBRIDGE OIL PIPELINE PROPOSAL I know you live in a little cocoon out there, hon. Member, but every month tankers come into the Port S. Fraser: Premier Clark appointed a new Minister of of Vancouver and deliver oil and gasoline to British Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. My question is Columbia so we can run our economy. Are you going to to that minister. More than 80 First Nations in the north go out and stop that too, hon. Member? and along the coast are saying no to the Enbridge tar We have an environmental review process in Canada sands pipeline and the associated supertanker traffic on and in British Columbia better than anywhere else in the coast. Will the minister be respecting that resound- the world. We'll stand behind that. We'll stand behind ing decision? our consultations. We'll try and create jobs and invest- ment in British Columbia so we can pay for all the things Hon. R. Coleman: I know the members opposite that you people want, like health care and education and opposed any investment in northwestern or northeast- social programs for the people of British Columbia. ern British Columbia — whether we would invest in any jobs that would create thousands of jobs and bil- GOVERNMENT PREPAREDNESS lions of dollars in revenue to help pay for health care FOR OIL SPILLS and education. To the members opposite: as these particular pro- R. Fleming: This morning Ministry of Environment cesses come through, they will engage with First Nations officials are telling the media that it will take years for 6842 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

the Goldstream River to be free of gas and diesel residue make sure that our environment is well protected here from a recent accident. The gas truck just spilled over 250 in British Columbia. barrels of gasoline into the Goldstream River, while the latest pipeline rupture in Alberta spilled almost 28,000 IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX barrels of heavy crude into Alberta's environment. ELIMINATION ON RESTAURANT INDUSTRY To the Minister of Environment: if 250 barrels of gas- oline devastate a river in this community, can he tell B. Ralston: British Columbians have learned the hard the House what a spill of 28,000 barrels of heavy crude way that they can't trust anything the B.C. Liberal gov- would do in the environment of British Columbia? ernment says about the HST. Yesterday the Minister of [1415] Finance threatened that a rejection of the HST in the referendum would still result in higher meal costs for Hon. T. Lake: Of course, we regret that gasoline British Columbians and continued pain for the restau- spilled into the Goldstream River. We're working very rant and food service industry. So I'd like to offer the hard with a multi-agency team, including First Nations. minister the opportunity to clarify his comments. I visited the site myself and was very pleased with the Will the Finance Minister confirm that when theH ST response of our ministry and the First Nations as well as is defeated, a return to the PST will mean that the addi- the federal agencies. tional 7 percent HST tax on restaurant meals will be We're committed to making sure that the persons gone? responsible for these types of events are fully held accountable and pay for all of the costs. We're quite con- Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I'm not sure what he refers to. fident that the processes we have put in place will in fact I made no such commitment whatsoever. What I did lead to total rehabilitation of that river. We're very confi- say is that it would be irresponsible to make any com- dent in our environmental assessment office and the risk mitment — good, bad or indifferent — until such time assessment for the major projects that come through to as we know what the results of the referendum are and British Columbia. until such time as we have a conversation with British Columbians on how best to deal with the impacts, good Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. or bad, with respect to the referendum. But I am, as I've mentioned before, quite interested in R. Fleming: As the Minister of Environment knows, understanding — as I sat here today and listened to yet the proposed Enbridge tar sands pipeline would cross more requests from the NDP to spend more money in hundreds of streams and rivers in British Columbia. This virtually every ministry — how they are going to square is a pipeline that would contain and carry 525,000 bar- their rather aggressive and ambitious spending program rels of crude per day. The associated crude oil supertanker against the fact that they're campaigning for the res- traffic would put the entire coast, including the pristine toration of the provincial sales tax, which in fact, as we Great Bear rain forest, at risk of a catastrophic spill. know from the independent panel report, will deprive Again to the Environment Minister: how can British the province of British Columbia in a two-year period Columbians trust the B.C. Liberals to protect B.C. coastal alone of almost $3 billion in revenue. communities and the tens of thousands of jobs, the thou- I'm very interested in hearing from the NDP Finance sands of small businesses that rely on a clean marine critic how they intend to square that circle. environment? Or will this government continue to take risks with the environment that British Columbians, in Interjections. poll after poll, overwhelmingly reject? Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. T. Lake: Well, it is the case that British Columbia The member has a supplemental. has a very robust, well-respected environmental as- [1420] sessment process. The member opposite is already prejudging the outcome. I thought the reason that we B. Ralston: Well, the restaurant and food service had proper institutions in this province, in this country, industry — those who work in it, those hundreds of was to allow everyone to have a fair process. thousands of people who work in that industry — has The environmental assessment process is robust. We a right to know the answer to this question. The refer- will consider all of the potential effects of any project endum question that's going before the public — and it that comes before us. is binding upon the government — is simple: are you in Last time I checked, that member opposite still owned favour of extinguishing the HST and reinstating the PST a car and appreciated having the natural resources of in conjunction with the GST — yes or no? this great country enable us to have the lifestyle. But To the minister again: if the people of British Columbia it has to be in balance with our environment. We will choose to reject the HST, will they get the original PST, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6843

or will they be getting a poison pill PST concocted by the minister about some of the rates and some of the this minister? exemption-related matters. I'd like to first ask the minister a quick question.C hild Hon. K. Falcon: We've been very clear that we will tax benefit — that would be the Canada child tax bene- honour and obey the direction the public makes, whatever fit.A re those dollars deducted dollar for dollar for those that decision is, with respect to the decision over whether who are on income assistance, or are they exempt? to stay with the harmonized sales tax or go back to the [1430] NDP's preferred option, which is the PST plus the GST. I do think, though, that the public will also be in- Hon. H. Bloy: In response to the member's question terested in hearing about the NDP's proposition. The this morning regarding part-time employees, the num- Leader of the Opposition has said he's actually going to ber of part-time employees is 137. campaign for an option which will see British Columbia In response to the member's question, the federal move, under the NDP's preferred option, to a retail sales child tax benefit is exempt from income tax rates. tax — something that nowhere in the world, no jurisdic- tion, has done in 35 years. J. Kwan: What the minister, I think, meant to say It is fascinating that part of that Leader of the is that it is exempt from income assistance, so it's not Opposition's what I call the tax trifecta of economic de- clawed back dollar for dollar. struction includes going back on a retail sales tax where In that instance, could the minister explain to me almost nowhere else in the world is going. I'm happy why recipients who receive retroactive payment on the to see that debate unfold. I am really looking forward Canada child tax benefit get those dollars clawed back? to hearing from the Leader of the Opposition how he In other words, sometimes the federal government intends to dramatically increase spending in every min- makes mistakes, and those income assistance recipients istry of government while at the same time campaigning receive their Canada child tax benefit in a lump sum in for an option that the independent panel, of which they a delayed manner, not through any fault of their own. are fond of quoting, has pointed out very clearly will cost They're entitled to that money, and had they received the government coffers, over the next couple of years, al- that money in a timely fashion on a month-by-month most $3 billion. I'm very interested in seeing that answer basis in the designated time they were supposed to re- from the NDP. ceive it, those dollars would not be clawed back. But in the instance where those moneys arrive late [End of question period.] from the federal government in a lump sum, those dol- lars are then clawed back by the ministry. Why is that? Orders of the Day Why that penalty against families and their children? And if that policy is bad — and I would assume that the Hon. R. Coleman: Mr. Speaker, I was busy for a mo- minister would admit that's a bad policy — will he then ment there. In this House we will be continuing the commit today to eliminating that clawback so that those estimates of the Ministry of Social Development, and in families who should be receiving those dollars would get Committee A we will be continuing the estimates of the every cent of it as they deserve? Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. [1435] [1425] Hon. H. Bloy: Retroactive child benefit supplement Committee of Supply payments are treated as unearned income and deducted from income assistance, as they are not for the child's ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF current monthly support needs. SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (continued) J. Kwan: But surely the minister understands the il- logicalness of this — right? Had the money arrived on The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. time for that month for that family, they would have been Reid in the chair. able to keep every single cent of that child tax benefit from the federal government. But because of a mistake The committee met at 2:29 p.m. from another entity — namely, the federal government — the family receives that money late. They then receive On Vote 40: ministry operations, $2,339,088,000 the money in a lump sum, and when that happens, they (continued). get those moneys reduced from their income assistance cheques. That makes no sense. J. Kwan: Just prior to the break my colleague the That's literally taking money out of the hands of chil- member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast was asking dren. There's no other way to describe it, Madam Chair. 6844 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

That is a policy question. I know what the minister's those six months they ran around, they maxed out their policy says and what his briefing book says, and I know credit card, they borrowed money, and they went into what his staff is going to tell him. It's a policy that has debt to try to survive. Then finally, the federal govern- been put in place that is plain wrong. ment sorted out the problem and sent them a cheque in What I'm asking for today is political leadership from a lump sum. Guess what. Dollar for dollar, that money this minister and for this government, who say that they was deducted from that family. They can't even use that want to support and put families first. So I ask the min- money to pay off the debt that they owe, the interest that ister to please not consult with your staff, because they they have to pay as a result of racking up the credit card. cannot give you that answer. They are not authorized to That's what I'm asking for — a policy change. give you that answer. I'm not interested for the minister to make up some The answer can only come from the politician. That reason why it's okay to do that, because it's not okay. If would be the minister, in this instance, and I'm asking the minister believes and this government believes in the minister: does he believe that those dollars should family first, they would allow those families to keep that be clawed back when they are retroactively paid to the money, the child tax benefit from the federal govern- families? This would be the Canada child tax benefit re- ment, which they would have been entitled to keep had ceived by a family in a lump sum because of an error the money arrived on time. I ask the minister to show from the federal government. Yes or no? leadership, but he's not been able to do that. If he believes that family is first, then I would ex- Let me try another area, Madam Chair — dollar-for- pect that his answer would be, "No, they should not dollar cut to child support payments. This has been a be clawed back," and that he'll do everything he can to policy that was brought on by the B.C. Liberal govern- fix that problem and tell the Premier that it is a wrong ment back in 2002. They eliminated any child support policy and that they will in fact immediately eradicate payment exemptions for any parent on income assist- that. That would be the answer I'd be expecting from ance, which disproportionately impacts women. a minister who will advocate on behalf of children and Child maintenance payments are meant to directly who believes in the policy of putting families first. support children in single families. This policy directly [1440] impacts the supports for children in vulnerable fam- ilies. Dollar-for-dollar cut of child support payments for Hon. H. Bloy: When an income assistance recipient families just keeps children, frankly, in poverty. Is it any is not receiving child tax benefits, the ministry provides wonder that we have the highest child poverty rate in a top-up. Assistance is provided to meet needs in the the country year after year? current month, and that's why when a retroactive bene- In the first two years it was implemented, the loss of fit is received, it is declared as income. the child maintenance exemption affected on average 6,104 families each month, and the government clawed J. Kwan: The situation, of course, is this. When the minister talks about a top-up, it's not an automatic back $14.6 million in spousal support from single moth- top-up. People don't get an addition in their support ers. The elimination of child support exemption is one portion because they didn't get their child tax bene- of the reasons, as I said, that's impacting children who fit. They go to the ministry to ask for further assistance, are living in poverty today. and sometimes they get it, and sometimes they don't. Along with the cut in family maintenance in 2002, the Sometimes they have to pay it back. B.C. Liberal government — and the minister will know Well, I'm asking for a basic policy change. Anybody because he was here during that time — has also elim- with a reasonable sense would agree with me, and that inated earnings exemption. Anyone without a PW or is to say that the Canada child tax benefit that is given PPMB designation — so for people on income assist- to every single family that is eligible, including those on ance but not on disability — 100 percent of their earned income assistance, should be staying with those families income is clawed back, serving as a deterrent for them without a clawback. to re-enter the workforce. The minister has told us that the policy is such that if Since 2002 the loss of the $200-per-month flat-rate you should receive that money on time, then you would earnings exemption and the $100-per-month child not receive a clawback. Those families and those chil- maintenance exemption represents a $300 loss in in- dren get to keep that money to support them. But if for come for these families. In the first two years since that some reason the federal government makes a mistake policy was implemented, the government clawed back and you somehow receive that money late, if somehow a total of $35.8 million from working welfare recipients there is a delay for you to receive that money and it ac- over that two years, taking money directly from families cumulates over a period of time…. and children who are in greatest need. [1445] I'm asking again for the minister to take political In the instance of a constituent of mine, for over six leadership. If he truly believes in what the Premier says months they did not get their child tax benefit. For — that they would put families first — will he ask the Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6845

Premier today to change that policy? She was part of the I know what the policy is, and I'm telling the min- decision-makers around this table back in 2002 when ister that the policy is wrong. If the minister and this she was Deputy Premier. government believe that family should come first, then If she believes in putting families first, will this min- the most vulnerable families should get the support, and ister say to the Premier today to change that policy and that policy should change. All that I was asking this allow single parents, single moms, to keep their child minister was whether or not he would commit to talk maintenance support money when they're on income to the Premier — because she says she's changed — to assistance? And will they reintroduce earnings exemp- see if she will then bring in a policy revision related to tion once again for working families who are on income these matters. assistance? Will he commit that today? I just need a Finally, I know we're out of time. I asked, like, three or simple yes or no. To the minister: will you talk to the four questions. It's taken about half an hour there, and Premier and make that commitment? I'm just going to ask the minister this question. I don't [1450-1455] need him to consult with his staff and for them to write out an answer. I simply just need a yes or a no. Hon. H. Bloy: You know, earning exemptions were He says there's research somewhere to show that in fact reformed in 2002. They were increased to $500 a month the income assistance rate had gone down and that that is for persons with a disability, but they'll stay on the case- directly linked to earnings exemption — that the elimina- load much longer and combine their benefits with work tion of earnings exemption somehow is good for income experience. Earnings exemptions were eliminated for assistance recipients, that somehow it propels them to go expected-to-work clients based on research that they and get work and get off of income assistance. created a disincentive for those employable clients to re- I challenge the minister, then — not today but at a turn to work. later time — to table the documentation to back up that It's proven since 2002 that the caseload has gone claim. I'd love to see it, because I don't believe it. down. Ministry research on these clients who returned to work has shown they are earning more money off of Hon. H. Bloy: For the member across the way, there income assistance year over year than they would have are three research reports on the ministry's website: the on income assistance. longitudinal administrative database report showing That's one of two answers. Government supports fam- outcomes of clients leaving income assistance. They're ilies and single-parent homes to secure maintenance on the website, but my staff will also forward you a copy support agreements. Income assistance is there for the of the research. families who need to draw upon it, and maintenance amounts are considered to determine the income that S. Simpson: I want to talk a little bit about welfare the person can exist on. rates at this point. The minister will know that the last rate increase, the only one during the term of this gov- J. Kwan: On that last answer on child maintenance, ernment, was in 2007. That, of course, came after the I know that is the policy. What I'm saying is that the government had put in the only rate cut, in 2002, to cut policy is wrong. Child maintenance money should be rates. The rates were increased in 2007. money that should be given to the families to support [1505] the child. That is why it's called child maintenance. The problem is that in every category, with the excep- I have a single mom in my riding, Ms. Lenlen Castro, tion of singles between 18 and 54, when you factor in who fled a violent relationship so that her young daugh- inflation, people were worse off with the 2007 rate than ter could have a fresh start and a safe start. She pursued they were in 2001 — heading up to a single parent with the maintenance dollars, thinking that those dollars two children being about $330 worse off per month than would be there to support her new baby girl. Not so. The she was before. money would have been clawed back dollar for dollar. The results of this, as we all know, are things like rec- [1500] ord use of food banks — almost 95,000 people in March Imagine if you were a single parent fleeing a violent 2010, a 5 percent increase in the use of food banks. relationship, and in spite of that, you went to pursue the Of those who use food banks, 44 percent of them are maintenance dollars — as the ministry social workers people who are collecting a welfare cheque and have to asked her to do. She did exactly that, putting herself pot- use a food bank in order to feed their families and make entially at risk because she wanted additional support it work. for her family, and she couldn't get it. She spoke publicly My question to the minister is: does the minister be- about this. Why? Because she wants the policy changed lieve that the welfare rates currently in place in British not only for herself but for other mothers and children Columbia are sufficient to meet the basic needs ofa and single parents in British Columbia in her similar family? situation. [1510] 6846 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Hon. H. Bloy: In British Columbia our income as- My question is to the minister. Again, does the min- sistance is there to provide assistance to those who are ister believe that welfare rates are sufficient to meet the most in need, and our rates are comparable to other basic needs of people in British Columbia who unfortu- provinces. We recognize that it is a challenge to live on nately find themselves on income assistance? If he does, income assistance. he can say yes. If he doesn't believe it's sufficient, what is People often do not know what the various supports he prepared to do about it as minister? available to low-income households are. For instance, a [1515] two-parent family of four on income assistance receives a host of provincial and federal benefits that in fact bring Hon. H. Bloy: Some of this we had discussed this their monthly income to about $1,800 per month and morning, but income assistance is just one part of a pack- $2,025, if their children are under the age of six, to suffi- age of services available to support low-income families. ciently meet the monthly cost of a nutritional diet based The province supplies a suite of services in addition to on Canada's Guidelines for Healthy Eating as well as income and taxation and benefits that would be avail- shelter and other expenses. able from the tax system. Some of those are: the B.C. climate action tax credit, S. Simpson: Well, what we know is that in 2009 the the B.C. harmonized sales tax credit, the Canada child Dietitians of Canada released a report called The Cost tax benefit, theB .C. Family Bonus, national child benefit of Eating in B.C. In that report they outlined how low- supplement, universal child care benefits. For the mem- income British Columbians can't afford healthy food in ber across, the percentage of the population living below British Columbia. Key findings included that they de- the low-income cutoff has reduced dramatically since termined the monthly cost for a nutritious food basket the year 2000 from 15.1 percent to 11.4 percent. for a family of four is about $872. A family of four on income assistance would need more than 100 percent S. Simpson: The minister might know that that per- of their total income for shelter and food only, so they centage, at just over 11 percent, the National Council of don't get to eat that food. Welfare would tell us is the worst rate in the country. What we also know is that the body that was put in [1520] place by the previous Premier, by Premier Campbell, It doesn't answer my question, though. My question to measure success and progress in this province has to the minister is: does he believe that current welfare released a damning report of this government's per- rates are sufficient to meet the needs of families? If formance when it comes to low income. he does, he can stand up and say yes, he believes that In 2001 the government set up the B.C. Progress Board. they're sufficient. If he doesn't believe that they're suf- The board set a goal of improving social conditions in ficient to meet the needs of families, then my question B.C., setting a target of being first or second in Canada for having the smallest percentage of families and un- is: what actions is he contemplating taking to deal with attached individuals living below the low-income cutoff them? by 2010, measured by the percentage of individuals and families below Stats Canada's low-income cutoff. That Hon. H. Bloy: To answer your question, Member, was the measure that was set in 2001. B.C., along with all other provinces, considers welfare What we know is that in their tenth annual report the rates as only a portion of the support that families need. Progress Board reported that British Columbia ranks Other supports include benefits in the tax system and sixth out of the ten provinces when it comes to the social other services for low-income families. condition. The report went on to say that for ten straight years — and this is the Progress Board, a government- S. Simpson: The minister continues to not answer appointed body, measuring this — in fact, B.C. has had the question. The reality is this. The National Council the highest number of people with incomes below the of Welfare — again, an independent body that looks at low-income cutoff or what used to be called the poverty these things — has looked at what's gone on in British line — the highest number. It also showed that the in- Columbia. And what have they discovered? They have cidence of long-term unemployment in B.C. has been discovered that since the peak year for social assistance, worse than the national average since 2006. which was 1994, we have seen, in real dollars adjusted We have income rates, welfare rates that have gone for inflation, that in every category people are worse off down, essentially, when you factor in inflation. We have today than they were then. a progress board set up by the government and Premier Single employables income since 2009 is down about Campbell that says: "You've failed miserably in meeting $1,300; a single person with disability, down more than the standards around social conditions." You have the $1,360; a lone parent with child, down $1,338; a couple Dietitians of Canada saying that people on welfare can't with children between ten and 15 are down more than afford to eat healthy and feed their children, and you $2,600. In every one of those cases of the four categor- have record use of food banks. ies they looked at, we've seen people worse off today in Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6847

real dollars than they were in 1994. The welfare rates are lower rates of poverty, and their incomes have tended to not sufficient. increase in subsequent years if they stay off the income [1525] assistance. Now, you can increase welfare rates. That's one way to Earnings exemptions are provided to clients that face deal with these issues. Another way to deal with these serious barriers to employment, who are in most cases issues is to look at exemptions that allow people who unable to work full-time and to become financially in- have capacity to do it to be able to earn other income. dependent. Earning exemptions are intended to help The problem is that British Columbia is probably the these clients participate in the workforce according to worst province in the country when it comes to earn- their abilities. ings exemptions and what is allowed under earnings exemptions. S. Simpson: Frankly, the minister is just simply wrong. I would again talk about the National Council of Earnings exemptions are an effective tool. Income Welfare. One of things they've stated in the research that exemptions are an effective tool. They have consistently they've done is that probably the most effective tool to proven to be an effective tool to break the poverty cycle, break the trap of welfare is earnings exemptions, which and the minister is simply wrong when he says anything allow people who have the wherewithal to get ahead. different. The reality is this: finding opportunities for But as my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant people to break that cycle becomes critical. pointed out, we don't seem to have that opportunity any I'm going to move a little bit to another area that longer in British Columbia. relates somewhat to this. I might have to do a little com- One of the things they do in Manitoba is that they bining here, so I'm going to bounce a little bit between have a system, what they call now the new liquid asset PWD and income assistance. Maybe this is a connected policy, which allows people up to $4,000 per person or area. $16,000 a family, I believe it is, of assets that they can The minister will know about the program, the com- bring into their family, of exemptions that they can munity volunteer supplement that's available to people claim, which allows them to look for opportunities to — PWD and persons with multiple barriers. This is a move ahead. Yet we're not seeing any of that in British supplement that allows people to volunteer for recog- Columbia. nized organizations to be able to make an additional Could the minister tell us why the government of $100. What we know is that there's a long waiting list of British Columbia offers such a limited scope of earnings people to be able to get on to those programs. It's a pro- exemptions when every other province, with the excep- gram that's simply not meeting their needs. tion of Alberta, essentially allows some kind of income I have two questions. The first question is: how long is exemptions in pretty much every category? In British the waiting list for people for the community volunteer Columbia that's not the case at all. The exemptions are supplement program? very limited. Why has British Columbia chosen to have Is the government and the minister looking at all such a narrow view on earnings and income exemptions at providing some additional resources to allow those when we know from the research that it opens doors to people — the people the minister just spoke about, create opportunities for people to break that cycle of largely people with disabilities — to be able to partici- poverty? pate in the community, and to be able to supplement [1530] what is a pretty modest or meagre income to start with, by being involved in a program that the government has Hon. H. Bloy: As the member knows, we did visit but won't adequately fund to allow people to take ad- this topic with the previous member that was up. For vantage of it? employable clients, the evidence is clear that earnings [1535] exemptions encourage people to combine part-time employment with income assistance. Instead of help- Hon. H. Bloy: As an avid volunteer myself, I ing employable clients become independent, earnings understand the positive impacts on someone's life of exemptions increase dependency, making it harder for volunteering, and we are pleased with the appeal of this people to leave income assistance. program. We are proud to have the most generous and The ministry has been successful in transitioning extensive community volunteer program in Canada. expected-to-work clients to employment and financial B.C.'s commitment far outpaces any other province. The independence. Studies using tax data have shown that $5.3 million budget for 5,000 persons with disabilities over 80 percent of British Columbian expected-to-work far exceeds the half a million dollars for Manitoba, the clients who moved off income assistance have gone on only other province that has a community volunteer to employment and are better off working. Ministry re- supplement. search has shown that clients who leave assistance for In the budget of 2007 we increased this program by $3 employment have had higher average incomes and million and now have a longer wait-list than before, and 6848 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011 we are exploring options to address this problem. The of processes in place to continue to ensure that those current wait-list is 7,000 clients. with immediate needs have their needs met on a prior- ity basis. S. Simpson: How long is the wait-list for people want- While the member is right that there have been chal- ing to get into the volunteer program? lenges, the ministry and its staff continue to address them, and there have been considerable improvements Hon. H. Bloy: As I just said, the wait-list is currently over the past few months. 7,000 clients. S. Simpson: Before I ask the next question, I'll flag S. Simpson: So how long does that mean that some- that just after five o'clock we're going to move to multi- body is likely to be waiting, and is there any intention culturalism, just so the minister knows. I also believe on the part of the government to improve the program my friend from Delta South has some questions related if it's obviously successful? People are using it. People to employment programs. I know that Ms. Bond, I be- are looking to engage in it. Is there any intention to add lieve, covers both those areas. If she's in the precinct, if enough money to reduce that list by some amount, and she comes into the chamber, then the member for Delta if so, could the minister tell us about it? South could get her questions related to that. She will be here in five minutes or so? That's great. Thank you. Hon. H. Bloy: As I previously said, we are pleased at On the questions related to the wait-list, could the how successful this program is, and we are looking at minister tell us what has been the result of those prob- options to address this. lems in terms of how it has affected people, in terms of periods of time they've had to wait or delays in being S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us what "options" able to get service because of problems around wait- means and what he's considering? lists? I understand that a lot of people came into the [1540] system without having additional staffing at that time, and that creates a complication. Hon. H. Bloy: Staff in the ministry are looking at the Could the minister tell us what the problem is there? trend rates for the program in order to consider how best What was the impact of that problem on people who were to maximize the program's current scope. This includes recipients? More specifically, how is it being addressed? considering case studies, considering client outcomes Are there additional staff being brought in? How is that and how best to support clients. being addressed so that we don't face it in the present? In the future, hopefully, demand will go down. S. Simpson: I just want to deal with a couple of ques- [1550] tions that relate to the wait-lists for people on assistance at the moment. Hon. H. Bloy: We experienced a significant increase What we know in relation to that is that I know the around Christmas, and some of our challenges were re- ministry has allocated an increase of about $65 million lated to it being that time of the year. Since that time, for income assistance over three years, largely to deal regional staff have worked hard to address the number with the dramatic increases in the welfare rolls. About of incoming applications, and we are more in line with 3,000 people, I believe, is what was underestimated this our service standards. Service requests that are not im- year and the coming year. We know there are signifi- mediate in nature will be actioned within five business cant increases, looking at numbers over 107,000 people days. on assistance in '08, 123,000 in '09, almost 133,000 in [1555] 2010. We continue to pursue an active hiring initiative to Could the minister tell us — because I know there've maintain a full complement of front-line staff at all been some problems with delays in processing people: times. I am particularly pleased at staff's ability to man- does the problem continue to exist in terms of pro- age during these periods so that people with needs have cessing people and getting intake done for people on been met. assistance? If so, what's being done to address it? [1545] S. Simpson: Maybe we'll get back to this at a later time. It's going to take some time, I can tell. Hon. H. Bloy: The member is right. There have On a related matter, I have heard on numerous occa- been demands placed on our staff to be able to meet sions about challenges related to the automated phone the challenge. We have diversified our service channels system: people talking about getting into the phone sys- to provide services on the phone and also introduced tem and dropped calls and ending up on dead lines and a self-serve application and assessment tool. We con- a whole array of challenges related to the automated tinue to speak with our regional staff. We have a triage phone system for people calling in. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6849

Can the minister tell us whether he is aware of these S. Simpson: I'm going to move to another area. I don't problems, and if so, what action is being taken to im- know whether Ms. Bond is going to be with us soon. prove that system? In 2010 legislation was passed regarding outstanding [1600] warrants. Essentially, recipients who have outstanding arrest warrants may not be eligible for income assistance, [D. Black in the chair.] for hardship assistance, etc. When I spoke yesterday to some of the staff, I believe they stated estimates…. They Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, I am aware, and I actually recently stated that there had been 494 requests for warrants, 237 visited the call centre responsible for providing services verifications of the warrants, but that only one person to Vancouver Island and for provincial programs. The was cut off service as a result of that. I believe that it's people have responded very positively to the introduc- the Solicitor General's ministry that does the review and tion of phone service. In fact, over 1.5 million phone then provides the information. calls came in the first year. Could the minister confirm whether it's correct that Some examples of how we are looking to improve these of that series, of the almost 500 requests that were done, services. In the Interior we've extended the hours of call only one person was cut off service as a result of that? into the evening. We are consulting with experts in the de- livery of phone-based services about how to make them Hon. H. Bloy: We checked last night and have up- more effective. Our ministry isn't the only part of govern- dated and confirm that the number that have been ment that delivers services by phone. We are looking to issued warrants and have been cut off of income assist- share our common experiences and maximize our cap- ance is actually four. acity by providing services to citizens over this channel. S. Simpson: So is that four people in total from June S. Simpson: I want to make sure that I understood 1, 2010 — from the enactment of the legislation — till the minister correctly. I didn't hear the minister recog- the present? I see a staffer nodding, so I'll accept that nizing that there were problems with the system. Is the that is accurate. minister suggesting that he doesn't believe that there Could the minister tell us: what are the costs related have been problems with the phone system? to doing these warrant checks that have related to four people being cut off? Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, I am aware of the problems. [1615]

S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us whether there's Hon. H. Bloy: The cost to date for the ministry is been some assessment done to determine how many $10,000. people got caught in that system — with dropped calls, with lost calls, people who weren't able to connect? S. Simpson: So $10,000. If I'm correct here — and I [1605] understand the minister won't have a number for an- If so, what steps have been taken with the people do- other ministry, so I'm not expecting a number — that ing…? I assume it's technology and software combined. would be the cost for this ministry. But would it be fair So what steps have been taken to correct that, and who to assume that there would be costs related to Public pays for those corrections? Is it the people we bought Safety and Solicitor General, for them to provide the the service, that system, from, or is it the taxpayer? reviews or the work that they do, or are there other min- [1610] istries that play a role in this, maybe other than Solicitor General, who would also have costs related? Hon. H. Bloy: We're really pleased with the responses Just an acknowledgment of that. I know that the min- that we're getting on the phone system and the responses ister probably wouldn't have those numbers for other that we're getting in other provinces across Canada. The ministries, but are there other ministries that would also people's experiences very much depended on the part of acquire costs for this? the province they are calling from. In some areas called, they received service in one or two minutes; in other Hon. H. Bloy: As far as we're aware, that is the total areas they may take 20 to 25 minutes. We are aware that cost for the warrant search. some of the calls are lost due to high volume, and we do not have a reliable database to report on this. S. Simpson: Considering that out of 500-odd re- There have been no additional system costs to the quests for warrants and processes, four people in some province. We are pursuing continued improvements fashion got cut off…. Maybe I'll get to that question in through our hiring strategy and are seeking advice a moment. from experts in this area and consulting with our cross- On the ministry's website it says: "The ministry will government colleagues. check for a warrant when an applicant or recipient dis- 6850 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

closes they have a warrant, or is unsure if they are subject for people's time on income assistance. There hasn't to a warrant, or if the ministry is provided information been any difference in people's time spent on assistance that indicates the existence of a warrant or at the minis- attributable to the move away from a caseload-specific ter's discretion." model. Could the minister give, maybe, an example of a Furthermore, designated workers are available when situation of what type of information would come to it is necessary for a client to maintain a consistent work- the minister that might provide the minister with con- ing relationship with one ministry worker. firmation of the existence or indicate the existence of a warrant, other than self-disclosure? What kind of infor- S. Simpson: The reality is that the vast majority of mation would be available? people clearly receive their service from whoever has [1620] the duty roster for the day, and that's fine. Some people believe that that system makes the most sense. I'm not Hon. H. Bloy: Our experience is that the majority of convinced of that, but it would certainly be valuable to these cases are self-disclosed. They could also be dis- know that. closed from a law enforcement agency to us. The minister talks about one consideration, which is length of time on income assistance, and that's an im- S. Simpson: For that to occur, would that be an in- portant factor. It wouldn't be the only factor, though, if stance where they would make this available, or does the you were doing a proper evaluation, I'm sure. It doesn't ministry make requests of law enforcement agencies for say much about what it does in terms of the service the information on applicants? staff believe that they're providing. I know, from conversations that I've had with line Hon. H. Bloy: We've never made a request for the in- staff of the ministry, that some of them feel a frustration formation from law enforcement. with this. They don't feel that they necessarily have the opportunity to provide the best possible service when S. Simpson: I want to move to a question, maybe just they don't get to build the relationship with people that one or two more questions, in relation to this. Is there a caseload model allows them and affords them. any checking of warrants for people who are current re- [1630] cipients — not applicants but people who are existing My question, then, is: does the ministry have any in- recipients? Are they also required to give that informa- tention — and if not, why not? — to do an evaluation of tion, or are there checks for them? whether this model makes sense in the long term, par- ticularly, as we spoke earlier, about poverty reduction Hon. H. Bloy: Yes, it's a question that we have on and breaking that cycle of poverty and some assessment the ministry's monthly request for continued assistance, as to whether, in fact, it might improve the situation which the recipients submit back to us each month. for people on assistance to break that cycle if they were working on an ongoing and more consistent basis with S. Simpson: Moving to a bit of a different topic. This workers, particularly for people who probably are on the is the issue of caseloads versus no caseloads. employable side, who are looking to get off the system The ministry moved a number of years ago away from as quickly as possible — that there may be some advan- the notion of caseloads — workers who carried a case- tage there. load of a number of clients and worked with those clients So my question, again, to the minister is: since there's on an ongoing basis — to the current system, which I been no formal evaluation, is there any intention to do a believe essentially is that somebody phones in, a client formal evaluation of this at any time in the future, and if phones in, and they are serviced by whoever takes that not, why wouldn't you do it? call, whoever the duty person is. They provide whatever [1635] service or interaction there is. There obviously is a significant debate about whether Hon. H. Bloy: You know, the member is correct. one system is better than the other or whether it makes There are varying points of view about what works best. no difference in terms of the services. The ministry is committed to a multichannel approach My question to the minister is: has the ministry done in providing services. Phone service has proven very any evaluation of the caseload versus no caseload model, popular, as have self-service and office visits. It is ex- and have they done that evaluation from the perspective tremely difficult to envision a caseload-based model in a of both the workers and the consumers of the service, multichannel environment. the clients? Has there been any evaluation done? I agree with the member that focus needs to be on [1625] helping people get back to work. Multichannel affords the best opportunity to work with people on employ- Hon. H. Bloy: There hasn't been a formal study on this ment plans and refer to employment-related services, topic, but the ministry does continue to examine trends where the one-to-one client interface is more critical. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6851

S. Simpson: I thank the minister for that answer. I be- Also, the numbers of individuals that come from lieve that the minister was going to ask for just a couple Richmond to the Delta program are staggering, and the of minutes. After that, the member for Delta South,I be- Richmond office cannot handle their clients as they exist lieve, has a series of questions, and then we'll be moving now. on to discussing the multiculturalism piece at that point, One of the reasons the ministry may not have heard following that. of this problem is an issue that I came upon when meet- We still have a series of questions around disabilities. ing with some of these organizations within the Delta We have community living tomorrow. So we'll have area. I was attending a meeting, parked my car, got out some conversation over the evening or whatever with of my car to go into the building, received a phone call staff, with theH ouse Leaders, about how we fit this all in. and was told that I could not attend the meeting because We'll figure out how to do that. We'll get through those they had just remembered a clause in the RFP which questions and the multiculturalism, hopefully, in that forbids proponents to attempt to communicate directly time. With that, I'll sit down. or indirectly with any elected official of the province. "In the event a proponent lobbies the province in relation to Hon. H. Bloy: Hon. Chair, I ask for a five-minute this request for proposals, the proponent's proposal may break. be disqualified." So the groups, in recollecting this clause in the RFP, The Chair:C ommittee will recess for five minutes. said: "We can't talk to you. We're not talking to you about the proposals. That's not why we asked you here. The committee recessed from 4:38 p.m. to 4:46 p.m. We wanted to talk to you about the impact of the busi- ness transformation program, but we don't dare talk to [D. Black in the chair.] you." [1650] V. Huntington: I'd just like to comment on the earlier Minister, I'd like to know whether you are aware of discussion of the community volunteer program. Our that clause in the RFP for these proposals. office has been advised that the wait-list has not moved for two years. With 7,000 names on it, I doubt whether Hon. H. Bloy: First, I want to respond to the member. it is going to show much movement, given the budget at- There's nothing in theRF P that prevents an organization tached to the program. or individual from talking to an elected official about I guess my advice would be that the ministry consider unrelated issues to the RFP. The confidentiality and the — I don't know — dropping the program if people are no-lobbying clauses are there to protect the process and being expected to volunteer and wait all of these years the proponents. They are standard clauses in all govern- while they're volunteering to obtain the supplement. It ment requests for proposals. seems to be a chicken-and-egg thing that isn't working terribly well for those people who sit on the wait-list and V. Huntington: Let me assure the member that that yet volunteer. So I think we all look forward to whatever clause and the impact it had on organizations that were options you're considering. needing to speak to their member was significant. They I'd like to move to the employment skills program and, absolutely could not talk to me. They talked to me com- I guess, the business transition program. Some time ago pletely off the record. They were afraid to meet with me. I wrote to the minister's predecessor with the concern They were afraid to come into my office, and it didn't that the decision to include the Delta employment skills matter whether the discussion related to the RFP or to program in the 27 programs that have been dropped another issue. They were estopped because of the fear was, in my estimation, ill-considered. I received a reply they had of that clause. I just want to let the minister back to what I thought was a very reasonable explana- know that that was what happened as a result of that tion of my concerns, and I'd like to just canvass those a clause in the RFP. bit with the minister now. I would like to just go back and emphasize that the The minister advised that other programs in Ladner Delta employment skills program situated in Ladner and Richmond could cover the clients that were part services a lot of the clients out of the Richmond catch- and parcel of the Delta employment skills program or ment area, and some of the people from Surrey are also provide the services, and that is quite…. I won't say it's sent down to this particular program. The other organ- untrue, but it's not the case. The Delta employment skills izations in Ladner are not going to be able to cover off program has quite unique services that it provides, and the same types of services they have provided. a number of clients are sent from Richmond to Delta in [1655] order to access those specific services. It is a very differ- I would really like yourself — the minister's office and ent program to the one that is generally offered in most his staff — to reconsider precisely what services are be- of the other offices. ing offered and whether in fact the Richmond office is 6852 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

capable of serving its catchment area as it stands now. In 2009 the province inherited six federal programs They tell me they are not. I know that they send a num- delivered through more than 400 contractors. All labour ber of people on a regular basis to the Ladner office. market development agreements were reviewed for client Secondly, the business transformation program is service, types of service provided, results. Decisions not doing away entirely with the office, but even more im- to extend or to end were based on low demand and/or portantly, it is leaving a significant gap in Delta, almost a similar employment services available in the commun- year-long gap, as the office is closed.I 've also mentioned ity. Client service is the first and foremost when making that in my letter. There will be no services offered in these decisions. Delta for up to a year until the new program gets going. [1705] I have been asked.... Well, I have heard on a number As a result, 268 agreements were identified for exten- of occasions that there is a deep concern within the pro- sion to March 31, 2012; ten agreements were identified grams that exist now that this service will no longer be for an early end date of January 31, 2011; and 17 agree- available in Delta at all for the next year. There is noth- ments were identified for no further extension beyond ing to cover off, whereas in other areas there seems to be their current contract end date. Clients will continue to program consistency. have access to programs and services in their commun- I wonder if the minister could speak to that issue of ities. We have talked to the remaining service providers the gap in service to Delta and whether he could see at to ensure that clients will be effectively serviced in that least the services extended throughout the period of the area. business transformation program. V. Huntington: With great respect, Minister, I have Hon. H. Bloy: We will not be extending the contract received that standard answer three times now — not after the agreement reaches its natural end date on May just from you but through correspondence with the 31. We are working with the DESP to ensure that all cli- former minister, precisely the same words. What I am ents are effectively transitioned to one of the six service trying to say to you and to your officials is... providers who provide the same services in the area. The Chair: Member, will you remember to...? V. Huntington: It's so disappointing when no one will listen, which is sort of the cry from the entire prov- V. Huntington: I'm sorry, Madam Chair. ince. We're telling you that the service is not provided by ...that an error has been made in the assessment of the other organizations, that for a period of approximately a Delta South situation, and I would like it to be reviewed. year there will be no service provider in Delta at all, and I guess what I'm saying and hoping the minister hears all residents of Delta will have to go to Richmond and/ is that this is obviously something he has to take care of or Surrey. Furthermore, when the new program comes into out of his office. He should review the situation person- place in April 2012, the office is slated to be in North ally, in my opinion, and try and look at this with an open Delta. Originally there were going to be two offices, but eye to what the member is saying and what constituents for some reason, the second one got dropped, so south are saying. Delta is left without one. So the office in North Delta.... The clients will not be served in the same manner, nor For some reason, the ministry will not hear the fact will it be convenient for clients of Delta to reach what that the transportation between south Delta and North is going to be the new office, in addition to which there Delta looks great on a map but doesn't really exist in re- is practically a year's gap in service in my community ality. It is almost impossible to efficiently access North as a result of these decisions. The officials won't even Delta. South Delta naturally gravitates to Richmond, consider an extension of the contract to cover that gap. not to North Delta, and for a period of a year you're There are problems, and I sincerely hope the minister leaving my entire community without service in Delta. personally considers the issue. Chilliwack has two and is going to maintain two, but not Delta. M. Elmore: Thank you to the minister and the staff [1700] for the opportunity to raise some questions about multi- I would like to know what the reasoning is behind culturalism. I just have a few questions. this when we are trying to say that the existing services As I've been meeting with community groups, I offered in Delta do not offer the same services presently wanted to get some input and some feedback in terms provided by Delta Employment Skills. of their experience not only with provincial government programs but their experiences in the communities Hon. H. Bloy: You know, I want to thank the mem- and also canvassing for suggestions and solutions for bers across for their passion and for what they believe in, improving situations in the communities. in working with their clients. But I want to assure you To that end, just in terms of reviewing the history that we've had real analysis and thought process on this. of the multiculturalism policy here that we enjoy in Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6853

British Columbia and looking back, the federal multi- Hon. H. Bloy: To the member across the way, I ap- culturalism policy was implemented in 1971 by Prime preciated your introduction and your enthusiasm for Minister Trudeau, primarily with the policy goals of multiculturalism. promoting national unity and promoting human rights. You know, in the provincial budget we have $625,000, Through the evolution of that, in 1982 we saw the fed- and in the federal budget there's $1.85 million. I also eral multiculturalism policy embedded in the context want to let the member know that we also work very of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and closely with Jobs, Tourism and Innovation to stay con- with having it put out as a multicultural act federally in nected with the excellent programs for new Canadians. 1988. Now in British Columbia it was put into the B.C. [1715] Multiculturalism Act in 1996. In terms of the evolution, we've seen that evolution M. Elmore: Just a follow-up question to the minis- in Canada in terms of our multiculturalism policy, from ter: could you outline the spending breakdown for the the original focus on ethnicity-based funding to en- budget, just generally? courage ethnic groups to self-organize, to develop and to respond to the needs of new immigrants, primarily Hon. H. Bloy: Hon. Chair, $1.5 million in pro- programs to tackle racism and also to deal with issues gramming funding for grants to community agencies. that newcomers face in terms of settlement and integra- The remainder is spent on the administration of the tion into Canada. Multicultural Advisory Council. I'd be pleased to invite I think one interesting point in terms of looking at our the member across to the next meeting of the advisory provincial multiculturalism policy is that.... Federally council. anyways, there is a central theme of multiculturalism, a consistent theme that it always included the issue of cit- M. Elmore: Thanks to the minister for the invitation. izenship as a central concern. It's primarily in the federal I'd like to take him up on that offer. context, but I think it also has some relevance provin- I'm just wondering if you can tell me when the most recent annual report on multiculturalism was and if it's cially. It brings, to my mind, the challenge or the tension, possible to get a copy. I'd looked on the website, and I primarily with the temporary foreign workers program just saw 2009. I'm just wondering if there is a more re- — I know that's not officially under your area; it's been cent annual report. separated — but just in terms of immigration and multi- culturalism, those issues coming together. Hon. H. Bloy: The 2009-10 has now been edited to re- [1710] flect the change in the ministry, to Social Development. I would also argue that from those origins in the '70s The ministry intends to table this during the current ses- and the '80s to today the multiculturalism policy has sion. Once it's approved in the Legislature, the report become successfully embedded in our society at the will be made available on line. The ministry is currently national, provincial and municipal level, as well as in soliciting the information from all the different govern- business, public life, unions, community organizations ment ministries and Crown corporations, and we'll be — you know, where we've really seen the adoption of proceeding with the next report. many different multiculturalism and diversity policies. Just in terms of a little bit of my introduction. We've M. Elmore: Thanks for the answer. My next question heard that the demographic trends are changing in has to do with the concern…. I have attended — last Vancouver. Immigration is going to be the prime source year we had the hearings — the poverty hearings. As of our labour market development. We're seeing nearly a well, I was meeting with organizations in terms of the hundred thousand new immigrants and people with tem- experience of racial minorities, experiencing racism in porary status coming in to British Columbia. It's really their environment and daily lives, and particularly the changing the face of, particularly, Metro Vancouver. impacts of that of a systemic nature. Some argue that in terms of the evolution, there's a [1720] need for a post-multiculturalism or to conceptualize a Through those public hearings, it came out that of the multiculturalism 2.0, where we're seeing a new Canada four groups most likely to experience poverty, refugees develop an identity shaped by diversity. That's a term and new immigrants were among those groups, and that's popularized out of the Centre for Research and also that visible minorities, recent immigrants and refu- Information on Canada — a report that they put out. gees have consistently lower incomes and employment Those are just a few of my opening reflections,I guess, rates. As well, we see a disproportionate incarcera- in terms of multiculturalism policy in Canada and also tion of African Canadians and aboriginal people and a the development provincially, and just to lead into some higher incidence of racial and sexual harassment in the of my questions with regards to the provincial program workplace. on multiculturalism. My question is: could you tell me So I'm just wondering what policies are being under- what the budget for multiculturalism currently is? taken to address some of these systemic problems. 6854 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Hon. H. Bloy: I just wanted to restate what I said I was wondering if the minister has access to those earlier. The remainder of the moneys was spent on ad- statistics and also if there is a hate crime data collection ministration and the multicultural advisory committee strategy. — okay? We appreciate the member's concerns about the [1735] social justice areas she's identified. That's why we are so pleased that multiculturalism has become a part of the Hon. H. Bloy: The RCMP keeps statistics, although Ministry of Social Development. they are not current. We'd be happy to forward them [1725] to you. EmbraceBC was launched in 2009 to fund initiatives However, we've had staff working on the hate crimes that directly address racism and promote multicultural- task force. We're also looking at measuring hate crimes ism at individual, institutional and community levels. as part of our overall business plan.

M. Elmore: Thank you to the minister. I'd just like to M. Elmore: Just to clarify, monitoring hate crimes in follow up additionally in terms of the concerns I have terms of the multiculturalism plan? around the experience of immigrants, new immigrants and visible minority people in the workforce. We're go- [L. Reid in the chair.] ing to be seeing that immigration…. Some would say that it will likely account for all of our labour force Hon. H. Bloy: Yes. growth currently and in the near future. However, in the last statistics that I was able to iden- M. Elmore: All right, okay. Thanks. tify, immigrants have an employment rate that is two I'm curious about how our public service reflects di- times the general population, averaged over the last dec- versity at all levels, particularly upper management. This ade. Then we see a significant lower income for recent is the issue, again, of ensuring representation, really, at immigrants — 28 percent is the statistic I have. Visible all levels of society. We'd like to see it representative of minorities are 15 percent below the national average, the population — that the population is reflected at all and it's also lower than that for aboriginal people. levels. So concretely, I guess I can ask what the makeup In addition to that and compounded by that is that is in the public service, if you have statistics around that many immigrant and visible minority workers also and, also, measures in place to ensure that there is rep- face underemployment or precarious employment — resentation at all levels. temporary, part-time, contractual or self-employment One reference point that strikes me is in terms of this — and are also concentrated in low-wage sectors. chamber. The legislative chamber, our 85 elected- offi That underutilization of that sector of the workforce cials — I guess I could do the math myself — are not also represents a loss of productivity and a loss of vi- necessarily reflective of the numbers in our society. We brancy in our economy. I was just wondering if the minister can address programs and initiatives to rectify don't see that keeping pace at our elected levels provin- this situation and to also look at more effectively inte- cially, federally or municipally. Certainly, I think that is grating all workers into our economy and our society. a goal — to try to overcome those barriers to ensure that [1730] those inequities are addressed. I'm curious to hear if you know what the numbers are Hon. H. Bloy: In recognition of the importance of and also the plans in place to be proactive in ensuring placing a focus on multiculturalism in the workforce, there is representation. we have embedded the multiculturalism program with [1740] our employment programs. The Safe Harbour program supports workplaces to provide equitable treatment to Hon. H. Bloy: This is a Public Service Agency initia- clients and customers as well as inclusive commitment. tive, and we are working actively with the Public Service To emphasize again, we work very closely with Jobs, Agency on a strategy to address diversification of the Tourism and Innovation to stay connected with their B.C. Public Service. We consider this to be a priority excellent programs for new Canadians, including their moving forward and are working with our colleagues at employment program. the Public Service Agency on real action to make this happen. M. Elmore: I'm interested also in the issue of…. I was This is a topic of keen importance to the deputy min- wondering if there are available statistics on the inci- isters, and they are actively in discussion to increase dence of racially motivated crimes. I was surprised to diversity. We will check with the PSA on what they have learn that on the national level, the most common hate in terms of statistics and forward them to you. crimes, the most prevalent by 60 percent, are against ra- But I did want to comment on your other portion cial minorities, followed by religion, sexual orientation about more diversity not only in the House and not only and ethnicity. at the municipal level but at the federal level. I've got Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6855

a strong background in the Korean community. But in Hon. H. Bloy: I appreciate the member's question many Southeast Asian communities…. across from me on multiculturalism and what we're try- There are so many great people there that work hard ing to do. EmbraceBC has six program elements: arts and that I keep encouraging. But you have to step out engagement; interfaith bridging; organizing against ra- of your community too. You have to be involved in the cism and hate; community engagement and dialogue; whole province. inclusive leadership, development and mentorship; and I agree with you wholeheartedly that we have to bring public education. more people into this whole mixture of what we have for The six program elements provide urban and rural a better Canada, because British Columbia is recognized communities with an opportunity to access funding as a multicultural centre for Canada. for diverse strategies to address racism and promote There's one little statistic I learned, but you can't ask multiculturalism. me for the source. I'm not sure. There are over 180 reli- [1750] gions in British Columbia — cultures and linguistics. So I do look forward to working in and encouraging this M. Elmore: I'm also wondering if there are re- area. quirements, in terms of the application for grants, for organizations to demonstrate issues and principles of M. Elmore: Thanks to the minister. I was just follow- diversity, access and equity measures in their proposals ing up on that. I look forward to receiving the statistics. — so specific to multiculturalism, but if you also could I'm also curious in terms of…. I guess this would comment in terms of grants from other ministries. more be a cross-ministry effort, but do you track or do you have input or are there policies in place in terms Hon. H. Bloy: I want to let the member across know of the appointment to boards or commissions or com- that gaming grants are the responsibility of the Ministry mittees across the ministries in terms of representation of Community, Sport and Cultural Development. I want from diverse communities? to assure the member across the way that in the RFP for [1745] EmbraceBC projects we require the proponents to dem- onstrate links with diverse groups. We assess proposals Hon. H. Bloy: The policy for board appointments is to ensure there is a diverse representation of sectors and provincially set through the board resourcing office. We organizations. are aware, through our boards, that they prioritize re- [1755] gionally in ethnic diversity. M. Elmore: Thank you for the answer.I 'm wondering M. Elmore: Just the point that the importance of en- if you can address the issue of whether there is outcome- suring there is good representation has a number of based planning — so evaluation on the basis of targets, different benefits, asI 'm sure you're familiar, in terms of plans and performance indicators, in terms of an an- ensuring that more viewpoints are brought to the table, nual evaluation of diversity, performance and progress; also ensuring that a wide variety of communities feel an objective measure in terms of statistics, evaluating that they're reflected and can see their interests at the the success of the many programs that the minister has table. outlined. Sometimes it's a subtle thing. It may not necessarily relate to committees or boards that sit behind closed Hon. H. Bloy: We evaluate all of our programs to en- doors. But certainly, in a public realm there's an im- sure that the funded projects achieve the goals that they pact in terms of acknowledging to the wide variety of identified.E ach funded project must have measures and constituents that they feel they're part of the decision- an evaluation plan. making and that their interests are reflected. I'm also interested to look into that in terms of the M. Elmore: As I've been talking with groups and specifics around the board resourcing office, so I'll fol- individuals and also canvassing in terms of issues and low up with that. concerns, it strikes me that there are two very distinct- I have a few questions. I'd like to hear about just how ive groups in terms of the need for services and also just the minister, through multiculturalism.... What are the challenges in our evolving society — specifically, the comprehensive sets of equity and access policies — for needs and concerns of new immigrants coming in and example, policies including employment equity, antira- their need for services, being able to access services in cism, human rights, workplace harassment, access to their language specific and being able to provide sup- services, multilingual services, etc? I'm interested to hear port for them to transition, find a job, adapt in Canada, how those policies are implemented, not only, obviously, with all those numerous skills that are needed for that. within Social Development and Multiculturalism but I wanted to just address the issue of — and this is also throughout all the ministries. with reference to…. Some have called it the evolution 6856 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

of multiculturalism in Canada, or multiculturalism to support labour market attachment of immigrants. We 2.0, where from the 1970s, with the original multicul- work closely with JTI to ensure that the programs are turalism policy, now…. I guess this would also include aligned. myself. My mother came in, in the '60s, for example. I'm [1805] born here. I represent kind of the changing face — and my generation and younger as well. M. Elmore: Just following in terms of diversity, it's A number of my friends, when I talk to them about, also characterized as a competitive advantage. Certainly "What does multiculturalism mean to you? How do you in the business world, my friends tell me that it's see yourself or conceptualize yourself in Canada? What something they articulate as not moving beyond accom- does that mean...?" There's a difference in terms of the modation and competing and really looking to leverage children — second generation, third generation — who and be effective in terms of bringing together culturally were born here and grew up, and their parents, who may diverse staff to also bring their talent and to more accur- have emigrated from other countries. They have a dif- ately serve their client base and their customer base. ferent experience in terms of what it means to be in a The one specific that was told to me, in terms of the multicultural society. second- and third-generation descendants of immi- [1800] grants — our young children of immigrants — is that So my question is…. I'm interested in this in terms it's often the children, who have a combined social, eco- of.... It's been raised to me that there's a need to really nomic and cultural mobility, that have been the natural be more effective in terms of tapping into that divers- bridge between immigrant communities and what is ity. It's often stated that it's a great potential that we have, considered mainstream Canada and that there's a need and it's an evolving area in terms of being able to tap to make diversity a priority in all areas and also a need to into and effectively utilize that creative potential of that make Canadians aware of the lack of diverse represen- changing generation. tation in media, schools, the public sector and different Another example is that often.... So new immigrants areas and the need for inclusion — visibly diverse mod- coming in. Then also their children often experience dif- els for young children, to create in them a familiarity ferent.... You know, they're able to integrate more quickly with diversity. once they get into the school system. For example, as I'm wondering: are there any future plans in terms of well, it's been posed to me that it's the children of the an integrated vision or model looking forward in the fu- immigrant parents who are often the conduit between ture to effectively embrace diversity and encourage full their parents and mainstream society. participation? My question is just in terms of multiculturalism. It's more, I think, mainstream. Canada has been character- Hon. H. Bloy: I can assure the member across the ized as being a leader in terms of being able to tap into way that we do have a vision, and it's something that the potential of that, often called the diversity quotient this new ministry has been working on and continues to or the cultural intelligence quotient, in terms of being work on. The vision is that British Columbia is a model able to ensure that we utilize all our assets of social cap- society that embraces the cultures and traditions of its ital effectively. people with opportunities for all to live and grow. I'm interested: has there been any discussion or programs to address that? It is an area that's more.... M. Elmore: I recently had the good fortune of at- Certainly, we hear more in terms of the business com- tending the metropolis conference, which was held in munity being able to recognize that, the changing face Vancouver. I believe it was the fifth annual conference of cultural relations in the workforce. I'm also interested held across Canada but convened in Vancouver. I'm to hear if that's something that is being thought about or wondering what initiatives there are in terms of research implemented in the ministry or across ministries. or investment in conferences that bring together stake- holders. What I liked about the Metropolis model is it Hon. H. Bloy: I want to assure the member that what brought together government, community groups, aca- she's saying is right and very encouraging, because demics in that model. So I'm wondering if there are any EmbraceBC is exactly that — ensuring that we fully em- initiatives underway. brace all of our citizens. EmbraceBC aligns with the act [1810] to provide all British Columbians with an understand- ing of the benefits of living in a culturally diverse society. Hon. H. Bloy: EmbraceBC is what you were talk- Supporting projects and recognizing the importance of ing about. We have two programs that highlight it. cultural diversity and the elimination of racism is critical Organizing Against Racism and Hate funding supports as B.C. continues to grow in its diversity. projects that enhance a community's ability to effectively I'd like to mention again about Jobs, Tourism and address racism and hate crime. As part of the progres- Innovation providing programs totalling $26.8 million sive three-year, three-step process, communities work to Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6857

develop capacity, to foster community engagement and Hon. H. Bloy: We are actively involved in the Canada- to build local community action and sustainability plans provincial-territorial committee on multiculturalism, to address racism and hate. Organizing Against Racism which is led by Canada. and Hate replaces the critical incidence response model. Community engagement and dialogues funding sup- M. Elmore: Just wondering, also, if you can elaborate ports projects that foster trust and relationship-building in terms of some of the areas of coordination, programs between various sectors of the government and di- involved and…. verse cultural communities, including aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples, youth and elders, and recent Hon. H. Bloy: We'd be happy to send you the infor- immigrants and longtime residents of Canada. mation on B.C.'s involvement in the committee.

M. Elmore: Just further to that, I'm wondering if there M. Elmore: Thanks a lot. My last question for today is have been any provincial conferences that have been or- just in terms of following up. If there is specific research ganized or that are being planned, or if there have been that is funded or research priorities that are identified in the recent past. that the ministry is supporting, I'm very interested to hear about that in the areas of immigration or any issues around Hon. H. Bloy: We offer opportunities for commun- diversity, particularly as impacting the economy. ities to dialogue, whether at the provincial or local level, through EmbraceBC. Hon. H. Bloy: Noting the time, our staff would be pleased to set up a technical briefing for you and to re- M. Elmore: I'm just curious if there have been any view all the details that you would require. specific provincial initiatives, gatherings, conferences in I move that the committee rise, report progress and the last couple years — and proceedings available from ask leave to sit again. that, specifically. Motion approved. Hon. H. Bloy: We can send you a list of our funded projects. The committee rose at 6:25 p.m.

M. Elmore: I'm wondering, also, if there are plans The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. underway or programs in place in terms of coordinating with municipalities along the principles of promoting Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported multiculturalism and diversity. progress, was granted leave to sit again. [1815] Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported Hon. H. Bloy: Municipalities are welcome to apply progress, was granted leave to sit again. for EmbraceBC funding in collaboration with JTI. We work with the intergovernmental steering committee, Hon. P. Bell moved adjournment of the House. which includes municipalities. Motion approved. M. Elmore: In terms of the intergovernmental com- mittee, is that specific on diversity and implementing Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 the policies and priorities of multiculturalism, or is that tomorrow afternoon. a broader coordination and collaboration? [1820] The House adjourned at 6:27 p.m.

Hon. H. Bloy: Your question relates to a JTI com- mittee. It's called the Welcoming and Inclusive PROCEEDINGS IN THE Communities Inter-governmental Steering Committee. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM It is an opportunity for local governments to provide their perspectives on what is happening on the ground Committee of Supply in their communities. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF M. Elmore: My interest is in terms of the coordination PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL through provincial, municipal, and I'm also interested (continued) federally around these issues. Just wondering if there are partnerships in place in coordination with the federal The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. government. Horne in the chair. 6858 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

The committee met at 2:31 p.m. of PRIME records information management environ- ment British Columbia board in proportion to the costs On Vote 38: ministry operations, $605,202,000 (con- paid by the municipal sector. tinued). I guess that my question, then, to the minister is: is the minister saying that it is municipal officials who -de The Chair: We're currently debating the Ministry of nied municipal officials being on theRI P MECorp board Public Safety and Solicitor General's estimates. of directors?

K. Corrigan: Minister, we had left it this morning Hon. S. Bond: The board has changed, in fact. The with a couple of questions about PRIME-BC. I'm not original board was made up of people who actually own sure whether the intention was for the minister to re- the information, which is police services, but in fact, spond to those questions now with the information that that corporation, E-Comm, has now changed the role, I think you were going to gather, or was that for later? and responsibility includes local government represent- atives. They were added to the board in August 2010 at Hon. S. Bond: Perhaps the member opposite wouldn't the request of UBCM. Currently we have the mayor of mind just beginning with one or two of the questions. Surrey, the mayor of Langley and the mayor of Prince I know it was related to the board of directors. If the George on the board. member opposite would like to highlight which ques- tion she'd like us to respond to, we'd be happy to. K. Corrigan: So that's E-Comm — correct?

K. Corrigan: To the minister: I knew you were going Hon. S. Bond: No, they're on the board of to ask me that. I was asking about the makeup of the PRIMECorp. board and where the control is and who is on that board. I believe that the specific questionI didn't get an answer K. Corrigan: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. to yet, because we ran out of time, was: who appoints the So the PRIMECorp is the one that sets the levies for board of PRIME-BC? PRIME. In other words, I think it's currently at…. It might be higher, but it was $500 an officer up to $1,000. Hon. S. Bond: There is actually a subsidiary corpor- So it is PRIMECorp that sets that, and it's approved by ation. The board of directors is actually elected by the the Solicitor General? Is that correct? shareholder, so certainly not by the government. Hon. S. Bond: In the context of the day-to-day K. Corrigan: Okay, elected by the shareholder. I'm operation of PRIME, the board not only looks after ad- sorry. I'm not sure who the shareholder is. ministration but also financial administration. They also [1435] select and oversee the general manager, and they ratify the PRIME-BC budget, levy and strategic plan. It then is Hon. S. Bond: The shareholder is E-Comm, and that brought to the Solicitor General for endorsement. stands for Emergency Communications for Southwest B.C., and in fact, E-Comm is made up of municipal K. Corrigan: So the PRIMECorp does set those lev- representatives. ies. The levies were previously set, the $500 to $1,000, prior to municipal representation on the board? Is that K. Corrigan: So E-Comm then decides who is going correct? to be on the PRIMECorp board of directors? Hon. S. Bond: That's correct, to both of those answers. Hon. S. Bond: That is correct. The board oversees and directs financial administration, and they do suggest the levy, and it is endorsed by the K. Corrigan: Okay. I'm a little confused, and I do Solicitor General. The original levy was set before muni- admit that I don't understand the workings of PRIME cipal representatives were added. very well, but it seems strange to me. In 2010 the city [1440] of Richmond passed a resolution which included a whereas that there's no elected local government official K. Corrigan: Just to be clear, when the levy was on the board of directors of PRIME records informa- doubled from $500 to $1,000 was there municipal rep- tion management, etc., even though municipalities fund resentation on the board at that point? a significant portion of the operating costs. They further resolved that they wanted to keep the rates the same Hon. S. Bond: Well, technically it is correct that the instead of them doubling, as they did, and that local gov- levy was increased before municipal representatives ernment officials be appointed to the board of directors were added to the PRIMECorp board. Having said that, Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6859

there is a governance council, which in fact includes I wanted to move on to some questions about CAOs of municipalities, that reports up to the board. Corrections. If you want, I'll just sit for a second. So in fact municipalities, I am told, were aware that PRIME would need to operate on a full cost recovery Hon. S. Bond: We're happy to move on to Corrections basis. The initial fee was $500, and in fact I think there and happy to do that. Having said that, I have been was an extension of the $500 period. But certainly, I am asked…. I think that it's important that I respond to a told that municipalities were aware that there would be comment that the member opposite made in the clos- a transition and that the cost would increase. ing minutes of the earlier discussion that we had. It is, I think, essential that as legislators we ensure that we are K. Corrigan: I know that there are many, many mu- correct on the record wherever possible. nicipalities that have gone back and checked. I think one The opposition member commented, and it may have of the suggestions was that the RCMP were told at a par- been a passing comment, but nonetheless, it needs to be ticular meeting. I know that certainly in my municipality, corrected. The member opposite suggested that during which has, I believe, the second-largest RCMP detach- the closing days of the recent federal election, informa- ment in Canada.... Certainly, the city of Burnaby did not tion was leaked by the police, namely the RCMP, from a know, and the RCMP say that they did not know either database accessed by those police, a database similar to — that there was no suggestion in advance that there was PRIME British Columbia. going to be anything like this kind of increase. First of all, I'd like to clarify that British Columbia is the only jurisdiction in Canada with a provincewide po- Hon. S. Bond: I can only recount the information lice records management system. So first of all, that is that's provided to me, and I am assured that munici- inaccurate. The various police agencies in Ontario have palities have been aware. Certainly, to suggest that the their own separate records system. RCMP were not aware is inaccurate. Furthermore, it appears that it was a Metro Toronto The RCMP actually sit on the board. They actually retired police officer that spoke to the media about -in work with CAOs from municipalities that are related to formation on a certain federal election candidate and this project. So in fact, the RCMP were aware that there their activities. The information did not come from a were going to be increases, and I am informed that there database but rather from a retired officer's personal was a discussion with CAOs of municipalities. knowledge. It is essential…. The member opposite actually named K. Corrigan: Well, it may be that there were some the police and suggested that there was a leak from the CAOs at some point and some RCMP representatives. police. It is important that, even though we are protected I'm sure there were RCMP representatives. I do know, in this House, that information be corrected, because though, that there were many municipalities that were not aware. I don't believe Richmond was aware at that certainly it appears that that was anything but accurate. time, although I can't vouch for that. They were certainly concerned about the increase, as their resolution to the K. Corrigan: My comments were to point to the po- Union of B.C. Municipalities would make very clear. tential dangers of having a database with 4½ million I know that the city of Burnaby was not aware — again, names in it — 4½ million names of citizens of British the second-largest detachment in Canada. Richmond is Columbia. That was the point, and I continue to think probably the third-largest detachment, in Richmond. that there is a danger, and I think that people should Neither one of those municipalities are represented on be concerned that there is a database with 4½ million PRIMECorp's board of directors. names in it. So I'm just wondering how it is that.... What particu- I was relying on what I had seen or thought I saw in lar municipalities are represented on PRIMECorp? You media, so if I was incorrect in that regard, I would cer- said — I just want to make it clear — the appointment tainly retract that comment, if the information that I comes from E-Comm. Is that correct? had was incorrect, but it doesn't change the point that I was making. The point that I was making was that I Hon. S. Bond: I'm informed that, in fact, the recom- think people have expressed, and rightly expressed, a mendations about who should sit on the board came concern about having 4½ million names on a database, from the Union of B.C. Municipalities. They were passed any database, that is supposed to be related to crime and forward to PRIMECorp, which passed them on to criminal activity. E-Comm, and those recommendations were respected. The only reason that I mentioned that was because of what I had seen in the media. I'm certainly not sug- K. Corrigan: Okay. Thank you very much for that. gesting that any police officers in this province would be That clarifies some things and raises some more- ques unethical or would leak information, but I do think that tions that I will pursue at a later date. Thank you. any time you have a database with 4½ million names of [1445] citizens on it and comments about their interaction with 6860 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

the police, it is a legitimate matter to raise and to ask We're happy to comply with any of the reviews that questions about whether or not this is the kind of world will be done, but to imply that there is risk based on a that we want to live in. circumstance that didn't exist in another province is in- credibly unfortunate. Hon. S. Bond: Further to the member's point, it is ab- solutely relevant if the member opposite actually relates K. Corrigan: I have a question for the minister. Was concerns about a database and leaks that don't exist in the minister surprised when the minister found out, Ontario and in other provinces. In fact, it is unfortunate perhaps through this media…? I don't know how the that that would cast aspersions or in fact diminish the minister found out. Did the minister know that there effectiveness of RIP ME in British Columbia. were almost 4½ million names, some of them repeated, PRIME actually has, had the member opposite asked on this database? that question, an audit log, which actually…. If there is access to the system, and if there is a leak, the audit can Hon. S. Bond: PRIME publishes the number in actually be tracked directly to whoever accessed that their annual report, so throughout the course of brief- information. Any officer who inappropriately leaked -in ings, eventually I would have been made aware of that formation would be identified and would be subject to number. I became aware of it in the media, but it is not an investigation and possible discipline. something that PRIME attempts to in any way not share In terms of the number of names on the database, I've with the public. It's in their annual report. already explained to the member opposite, in fact, that yes, there are numerous names on the list which are K. Corrigan: Well, it's interesting that they had to do duplicates, that there is a system which includes whether an FOI to get that information. I'll have to talk to them you make a complaint or whether you are a witness. about their research basis. So 4½ million people on that [1450] database; the minister thinks that's just fine? All of those people are on an information manage- ment system. That's exactly whatRI P ME is designed Hon. S. Bond: What I think is just fine is the fact that to do. Freedom of information is an important practice, we need to find a way to allow police organizations in and it is incorporated into the design of PRIME. In fact, British Columbia to deal with issues that the member the freedom-of-information commissioner is actually opposite and other members of the party bring up regu- going to look at this situation. We've agreed to fully larly. We want safe communities in British Columbia. It cooperate because we recognize the value of PRIME. is a number one focus of our new Premier. It is about While I appreciate the member opposite's comments making sure families in British Columbia feel safe. and the information that she is prepared to retract, I, and members of this side of the House, believe that what's important is that it was an attempt to discredit we should actually provide as many tools as possible to the system that's in place in British Columbia. That is the men and women who serve in this province every unfair. It is inaccurate. It is a system that is incredibly day. Should it take into consideration personal and in- well protected. Yes, there are more names in it than the dividual rights? Of course it should. But we have every member opposite would be comfortable with, but at the reason to believe that freedom of information and pro- end of the day, there is a process for which those names tection of privacy have been carefully considered with are also purged. That was another question that the the design of PRIME. member asked: how and when would a contact name be The member opposite, while she may want to focus removed from the PRIME database? on the four million names…. What I want to focus on There is a standard file-management process through is the fact that PRIME has actually been responsible for which files are purged after a certain amount of time, putting criminals in prison where they should be. That's with the time frame dependent on the type of offence. exactly what the system is designed to do. I've explained The process is standard across all police agencies. There to the member opposite that if you make a complaint, is also a process where individuals can request that their your name will be in the database, but it does not reflect name be removed from the database. The request would in a negative contact designation. be made to the specific police agency that filed the re- What I think we need to do is to better understand the port, and the decision whether or not to remove would purpose of PRIME and stop simply relying on a number be made specifically by that police agency. So there is a and implying that there is something that is inappropri- way, actually, that your name automatically comes off, or ate about that number. you can request that it come off. The point of RIP ME in British Columbia is to try to K. Corrigan: I take it from that answer that the min- actually deal with reducing crime in our communities, ister thinks that it's just fine. That was the question, and and in fact, PRIME has been proven to be an effective the minister has made it very clear that she thinks that tool. Do we need to protect individual rights? Absolutely. it's fine to have 4½ million names on the database. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6861

I wasn't going to go back into this, but I guess that If there are improvements necessary, we will con- I just can't help myself. The minister just said that template those, but certainly from our perspective, it somebody could apply to remove themselves from the is an important tool for law enforcement across British database. Do you think that it's appropriate that people Columbia. We believe the appropriate protocols are in should have to apply to have themselves removed from place, but we are fully willing and eager to cooperate a database? with the Privacy Commissioner's work. [1455] K. Corrigan: I certainly agree that it is absolutely ap- Hon. S. Bond: You don't have to apply. There is a propriate, and it's a useful tool to have a database with regular protocol which sees those names purged from information about criminals on it. My questions are the system dependent upon the type of crime. I for one merely as to how much information should be on a data- am not going to apologize that if you commit murder base. I certainly agree that I would want to have on a in British Columbia, your name's likely going to stay on database, as well, somebody who was a murderer. I ab- the database. solutely think that is appropriate. If there is a person who feels that their name should But again, I don't think that there are 4½ million mur- be removed sooner than the protocols would call for, derers in British Columbia. It's just a question of degree we're simply pointing out that they can go and have that and a question of how much. I look forward to getting discussion. But at the end of the day, there is a protocol that information from the ministry at some point in the that regularly removes names from the database. future, and I do understand that it probably will take a bit of time. K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could let With that, I would like to move on to Corrections. me know: how many names were removed from the Are we prepared for that? I can sit down if we need a minute. database this last year? I also wanted to thank your staff for their profes- sionalism in providing the information quickly and Hon. S. Bond: We don't have the number of names appropriately to my questions. I do appreciate that very, that have been removed. Each detachment is respon- very much. sible for their own removal according to the protocols The minister just spoke a few minutes ago about the that have been established. That would happen routinely primary importance of keeping British Columbians safe. in detachments across the province. In that vein, I'd like to start talking about the appropri- ate subject, I suppose, of corrections in British Columbia K. Corrigan: I would really appreciate, if it's possible — just the global numbers, the budget numbers. to get the information, for the minister to make inquir- [1500] ies, to find out how many names were added to the From looking at the budget documents, the budget database in the last year and how many were removed, for Corrections in 2010-2011 was $192.904 million. Is just to get a sense of what those numbers are. I would that correct for 2010-2011? I guess that would probably appreciate that. be restated.

Hon. S. Bond: We will attempt to provide that infor- Hon. S. Bond: The numbers that the member oppos- mation. It's certainly not an attempt not to, but it is new ite gave us are correct. It's $192.904 million in 2010-2011, work, because it isn't something that we would typically and 2011-2012 estimates are $190.443 million. calculate. But I've been assured that we can look for that information and attempt to provide it. It won't happen K. Corrigan: We have a slight reduction in Corrections in the short term, obviously. this year. I do also want to make sure that it's clear on the rec- ord that there have been concerns expressed about the Hon. S. Bond: As mentioned to the member opposite number. Obviously, the Privacy Commissioner also has this morning, the decrease is primarily related to benefit been clear that she wants to be sure that appropriate changes, and the balance of the amount is actually admin- protection-of-privacy protocols are in place. We totally istrative reductions so that we meet our ministry targets. agree with that. K. Corrigan: My understanding is that from 2001 [N. Letnick in the chair.] to 2011 the budget for Corrections has been cut by $25 million, approximately 11 percent. Is that correct? In fact, I've made an attempt to meet with the Privacy Commissioner on numerous occasions. Unfortunately, Hon. S. Bond: We do not have the numbers at the she's been ill, and we look forward to doing that meet- ready here in terms of 2001. We will certainly undertake ing very quickly. to get those numbers very quickly. 6862 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

K. Corrigan: I want to talk a little bit about prison ber could be higher, depending upon the design of the overcrowding. The ministry's service plan — actually facility. from last year, but I think that the comment is certainly We recognize it's an issue. We're working to try to applicable this year as well — says the current daily adult accommodate additional capacity. It is the largest ex- inmate population is between 2,750 and 2,850. This vol- pansion we've ever had in British Columbia, but we ume has reached critical capacity, with the province's recognize that there continues to be work to do. nine correctional centres operating at an average of 170 to 180 percent of designed capacity. That was March of K. Corrigan: Would the minister agree that with the 2010. change in federal legislation, an estimate of 270 inmates I also believe that for pretrial, it's somewhere in the being added to the existing prison population would be range of 200 percent of capacity. Is that correct? a reasonable estimate? [1505] [1510]

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, the member opposite Hon. S. Bond: We do believe.... At least, staff who has identified a challenge that we are facing in British are far more expert than I will ever be.... I should take Columbia. We recognize that there are capacity issues in this moment to introduce who has joined, additionally, our correctional institutions. The numbers are slightly our team this afternoon: Pete Coulson and Micheila different than the member opposite but not in a signifi- Cameron, who are both experts in looking at correc- cant way; 2,743 is the number, and 2,818, when you look tions issues. We're very pleased to be able to have them at the numbers. here today. But we recognize there's a challenge there. In fact, We do believe that the number is reasonable. The chal- that's why we're engaged in the largest expansion of cor- lenge we face, I'm told, is that no one can predict what rectional facilities in British Columbia's history. We're judges' sentencing patterns or behaviour will look like. adding a number of facilities but also a significant num- There are predictions that that number could be signifi- ber of cells that will help address this problem. We also cantly lower, but generally, we believe that that would recognize that we're looking for ways to deal with the probably be a reasonable number. system wherein which jail or pretrial are not the only options. K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could There is a process underway that is looking at capital tell me how many jails in B.C. have been closed by the expansion, and we're going to see significant additions Liberal government since 2009. over the next four years in particular. Hon. S. Bond: I'm told that since 2009 — none. K. Corrigan: I have a quote here from the Vancouver Sun that actually said that pretrial facilities are 200 K. Corrigan: I apologize. I think I must have mis- percent over capacity, but I do believe that would be a spoken. I meant to say 2001, please. misprint. It would be at 200 percent capacity, not 200 percent over — correct? Okay, I wanted to make sure Hon. S. Bond: Rather than take up what I know is that was correct. I assumed that was the case. valuable time for the member opposite, we will confirm That same newspaper article said that there's an esti- the number. We had a couple of different numbers here, mated ratio of 40 inmates to one staff atF raser Regional. so we're going to make sure we get the right number. Would that be an accurate reflection of the situation at We'll bring that back in just a couple of minutes, as soon Fraser Regional? as we know it.

Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite, in terms of K. Corrigan: I appreciate that, Minister. Somebody the number that she reflected, is accurate. But I think had written in a note here that they believe it's nine, but it's important to try to put some context here. First of I would defer to the expert staff on the other side. So I'll all, it's important to reiterate that we recognize there's wait for that number. a challenge here and, in fact, are working aggressively Given the admitted severity of the overcrowding facing to attempt to deal with some of those issues related to B.C.'s jails and, I would say, the escalating seriousness in capacity. terms of the health and safety of both the prisoners and But it's important to always remember the context. staff, can the minister explain why these jails — what- There are different inmate ratios, depending upon the ever number there were — have been closed? degree of risk. For example, a living unit that has a high- [1515] risk population may have staffing ratios as low as 1 to 10. The staff-to-inmate ratios in most secure centres range Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, there are a variety of reasons. from 1 to 24 to 1 to 40. Again, even the 1 to 40 num- Obviously, first and foremost, there was a concern that a Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6863

number of them were old and inefficient. Generally, it's health and safety issues, certainly, for the staff who work more an issue of what was closed. In fact, what closed there, who have been expressing their grave concerns were conditional, medium, open security types of situa- about this for years now. tions. Many of those were camps. The truth is that this government has been the one Interestingly enough, I'm told that because judges' that has been responsible for Corrections for the last ten sentencing patterns have in essence changed, the very years, so any overcrowding issues that there are, are sim- people that would have been in those facilities or camps ply as a result of the priorities or lack of priorities of this actually are no longer being sent to institutions or camps. government. Judges are now sentencing differently. In fact, they're I'll ask the minister a couple more questions about often in the community on conditional sentences. this prison lack of capacity. What progress has been So while there were facilities closed, the types of fa- made since last year to address prison lack of capacity? cilities that were closed and the inmates that would have been in the…. The inmate population in those facilities Hon. S. Bond: Well, I certainly want to correct the is actually being treated very differently now by judges. record. I don't think I used the word "crisis" and would There were ten closed, when you look at the total not do that. number, and one was transferred. Those are the num- While we recognize that there are challenges…. I ex- bers. But again, we have to look at why they were closed plained to the member opposite the difference, generally and what's happened since that time. speaking, between the closures that took place and how those inmates would be managed today. But progress K. Corrigan: I just want to clarify, then. So the min- has been made, in fact. ister is saying that the people that were in those facilities As I also mentioned, we are involved in the largest ex- that were closed — the net nine, it seems — were not pansion of capital related to Corrections in the history of sent to other facilities? British Columbia. Since 2007 we have actually added an additional 270 officers, and that enhances supervision in Hon. S. Bond: I may have caused some confusion correctional centres. We plan to hire an additional 200 there. The inmates involved that were actually in facili- officers when phase 1 of the capital expansion is com- ties that were closed were obviously moved. Remand plete in 2013. So we continue to add additional officers. was moved to North Fraser, so the inmates were moved We also have seen that assaults on staff, despite the to North Fraser. The remaining inmates were moved to challenges that are being faced, have actually gone other facilities. down. And when you look at those numbers.... We want What I was attempting to say — and, obviously, not to make sure that's continuing to happen, because the that well — was that since that time there's been a differ- safety of the men and women who serve in correctional ent approach to sentencing. Again, I think it's important institutions is incredibly important to us. to point out, as my deputy reminds me, that this is a Phase 1 of our expansion includes an additional 20 generalization. I'm sure there will be people who will women's cells in Prince George. The move-in date was say, "Well, that's not the case in certain situations," and December 2010. Alouette is also adding additional cells I grant that. for women. It is obviously a women's correctional cen- But generally, we're seeing that there is a different tre. We have 104 new cells that will open in October of approach to sentencing. Many of the same types of in- this year, and at Surrey Pretrial we're adding 216 cells mates who would have been in these facilities are now there, and we expect to be able to open those cells in the being sentenced in the community with conditional fall of 2013. sentences. So an additional 340 cells will be on line. People have [1520] been working very aggressively, and then we will move So post-closure a different approach has been ob- into phase 2 of the capital expansion. served by judges' sentencing — again, a generalization. There may be circumstances where that is not the case, K. Corrigan: You're right. The word that was in the but generally, that's what we've observed. ministry's service plan was not "crisis" It said that the volume has reached critical capacity, which is a similar K. Corrigan: Yes, I certainly don't want to suggest word but not exactly the same. that if we go find one person that was moved to another The ministry's service plan also says that with new fa- jail, the minister will be said to be incorrect. I under- cilities, there would be reduced overcrowding, which I stand the spirit of the answer, but the reality is that net assume acknowledges, again, that there is overcrowding; nine jails were closed. There may be a change in senten- and reduced risk of inmate disturbances, which to me cing, but net nine were closed. would be an acknowledgement that because of the over- We now have an admitted crisis of overcrowding in crowding, there are inmate disturbances; staff assaults; and jails which is creating real problems in our prisons and also liability to lawsuits — all in the ministry's service plan. 6864 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

It also says that staff safety would be increased if there were K. Corrigan: I fully understand that there are differ- new prison facilities. ent situations that would appropriately have different The flip side to all of that is that we are in trouble and ratios. But the question was if the minister can provide that staff safety, liability for lawsuits and staff assaults the current overall — the average — staff-to-inmate and risk of inmate disturbances are higher because of ratio through the system. I'd also like to know if it's pos- the overcrowding that has occurred for many, many sible to get the number of how that compares with, say, years in this province. 2002. If that's not possible for today, I'd be quite willing [1525] to have it at some point in the future. The minister just referred to the fact that violence has [1530] gone down. My understanding — and the minister can answer me on this one, perhaps — is that the reason Hon. S. Bond: Our staff doesn't have that average that the stats changed was because there was a different with us, but certainly we will make an effort to look at system instituted in January of 2008 which tracks the it. Having said that, I think that the relevance of an aver- incidence of violence in a different way, and that, in fact, age…. I'm not sure what that is. When you look at…. explains the seeming decrease in incidence of violence. We're going to be very clear that with high-risk offend- ers, there is a lower inmate ratio, and that would be Hon. S. Bond: In fact, the BCGEU and Mr. Dean absolutely appropriate. Having said that, we don't have Purdy have disagreed with the numbers that our staff the number, and we will certainly work to get it. have compiled, and that's a concern to me. So in fact, our staff have met directly with Mr. Purdy.I look forward to K. Corrigan: I appreciate the minister offering to meeting with him shortly as well, and we're happy to sit provide that information — just as an average through- down and talk about how there are differences in the out the system — and I do fully recognize that there are numbers that the BCGEU members have and we have. varying situations within the system. But I think, just as a global number, that would be useful. We want to be sure that.... While the numbers are im- I wanted to ask a couple of questions about inmates portant, what's critical to us is that there be a safe set of with mental illness. Is it correct that 56 percent of all in- circumstances for men and women who choose this as mates inside B.C. provincial jails suffer from some form their profession. So we are looking forward to the results of mental illness and/or substance abuse? of the discussion that I am aware the staff are having. We want to get to the bottom of why there are differences. Hon. S. Bond: That's correct, approximately. But certainly, we believe that our numbers are accurate, and we look forward to sitting down with the union and K. Corrigan: What is the government doing to ad- working through that issue. dress these huge numbers, to stop them from climbing and to stop people with mental illness from going to jail, K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could where they are often victimized? provide the current average staff-to-inmate ratio. [P. Pimm in the chair.] Hon. S. Bond: I think I referenced this earlier, but I will repeat it. It depends on the circumstances, and it de- Hon. S. Bond: Obviously, the member opposite pends on the level of risk. So there are living units that brings up a very relevant and significant issue that is a actually have staff-to-inmate ratios as low as 1 to 10. The concern for people who work not only in Corrections staff-to-inmate ratios in most secure centres — so if you but in the field of public safety. look, more broadly speaking — range anywhere from 1 [1535] to 24 to 1 to 40. There is an exception to that at the North Fraser I'm very pleased to tell the member opposite that ac- Pretrial Centre, where the highest ratio is 1 to 60. Before tually, B.C. is the only jurisdiction in Canada that has anyone reacts significantly to that, the centre was - ac a dedicated director of mental health services, and we tually designed in a specific way to accommodate the take assessment and care of all of the inmates in our ratio, and it is designed with a special security feature population very seriously. In fact, there is a screening which allows a better coordination among staff. process, and every person who is admitted to a prov- So as we look at future institutions, B.C. Corrections incial correctional centre has a mental health screening will look at the design approach to make sure that when within 24 hours. we have the need for increased capacity, our build- In 2007 and 2008 we created full-time mental health ings actually accommodate a way of approaching this officers, liaison officers, across the province, and there's a that keeps corrections officer safety at the front of our minimum of one in every centre. That particular officer agenda. is a correctional officer who provides support to - men Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6865

tally disordered offenders in conjunction with a mental fact was key in the design of the building and doing the health team that we have in place at each centre. So there research. has been a significant emphasis on providing support to I have received every confidence that a great deal of mentally disordered offenders. It is a challenging issue, work and thought and consideration of best practice was but we have, I think, led Canada in some of the initiatives actually used in the design of that building. The building that have been put in place. actually received accolades for looking at a new model that included more effective supervision and the way K. Corrigan: I wanted to talk about, just give a couple that that could be done using the facility that was built. of examples of, the numbers of people that are in jail just In fact, the ratio is 1 to 60. The building was -pur to get them confirmed. posefully designed to have a more efficient supervision For example, at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in model. I am assured that there certainly is a sense that Port Coquitlam there are times that the staff-to-inmate that building is designed appropriately and that a lot of ratio is running often at 1 to 60 — one staff to 60 -in research, hard work and best-practice considerations mates. The average number of inmates in that jail ranges went into the design of that building. around 600 in a jail that was built in 1999 for a count of 300 inmates. I would note that at that centre there have K. Corrigan: Well, I certainly am pleased that we been about 35 assaults on correctional officers in the last have that expertise here today. I just want to clarify then. two years. The North Fraser Pretrial Centre — was it built for 300 I'm wondering if the minister could confirm that that inmates or for the present 600 inmates? would be appropriate and accurate data. [1545]

Hon. S. Bond: North Fraser is actually the institution Hon. S. Bond: The capacity of the facility…. Well, let's that I described. As the member opposite points out, it put it more accurately. There are 300 cells in the facility, does have a ratio of 1 to 60. In fact, the description about and the cells were designed slightly bigger than a nor- the facility is an important piece of context there. mal cell would be in other facilities, and so initially there This was a facility opened, I believe, in 2001, and it was an expectation that some double-bunking may be was designed to accommodate this type of ratio through required, and in fact, today that is certainly the case. It security and design features. So yes, the number is 1 to has come to fruition, the concerns that the facility recog- 60. On average across the province, in most secure cen- nized — that there would likely be double-bunking. So tres, as I mentioned, the ratio is 1 to 24 or 1 to 40. This that is the case today. building was designed to increase the ratio and to build a security system that reflects that. K. Corrigan: I just want to go back to clarification. The number of assaults…. Every one of those is one The minister said that the guidelines or policies are that that we're concerned about when they occur to our the ratio is 1 to 60. Were the guidelines or policies that it staff. be 1 to 60 when the facility was built? [1540] But that is one of the numbers, in fact, that we'll be Hon. S. Bond: There isn't a formula or a legislated re- having a discussion with the BCGEU about. Our num- quirement about inmate-to-guard ratios. The facility was bers would indicate there were 21 over two years. Again, built assuming that there would be a larger supervision we're very willing to sit down with Dean Purdy and the number for inmate to guards. Whether that number was BCGEU and have a discussion about how those num- 1 to 60, there certainly wasn't a decision that this build- bers are counted. Our primary goal is to ensure that ing would be designed and that it would be a ratio of 1 to there are safe working conditions for our corrections 60. That is the number today, which we've clearly identi- officers. So we're happy to have our staff sit down and fied, but there is also confidence on the part of certainly work through those numbers. the ministry team that the building allows for that to be done safely. K. Corrigan: I just want to clarify then. Is the minister Having said that, it's not the only thing we've done. saying that the policy or the guidelines or the legislated We've actually added additional officers as well. So we ratio — because frankly, I don't know exactly where it's have added additional staff, and the building, we believe, contained; I haven't seen that — is 1 to 60 for the North functionally allows that high of a ratio. Fraser Pretrial Centre, that that is in writing as the ap- propriate ratio? K. Corrigan: Well, I certainly know that the people who work there have expressed a great deal of concern Hon. S. Bond: I've just learned something new, and about those numbers and feel very strongly that there I'm happy to be able to share that as well. I'm being ably is increased tension, particularly with the high num- assisted by the former warden of North Fraser — in ber of people with mental illness problems in those and 6866 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

other facilities, and that there's an increased number of I live in a community that has a correctional facility guard assaults. I'm sure they will be much comforted to in it, and I can't begin to tell you how professional the hear that everything is fine and that there isn't a concern men and women who work in that institution are. I have about that ratio. lived there my entire life and have not felt that having I'm certainly not in any way attacking the integrity of a correctional institution where I live is inappropriate the people and the senior people who work there, but it by any stretch of the imagination. We have very secure is a real concern for the guards and other workers that buildings, facilities, and exceptional staff. work in that facility. I think that I will leave it at that on The process in the Okanagan has clearly been out- the prisons. lined. We have rejected a particular site because a I just want to make a comment, though. A couple of community did not want the correctional facility there. years ago in my community of Burnaby, there was a sug- We do our very best to be accurate and informative. I'm gestion that a remand centre would be built at a location very pleased to say that there are a number — I'm told; I that the people of Burnaby did not want, and govern- haven't seen them — of exceptional proposals for a new ment changed its mind. corrections facility in the Okanagan, and I look forward [1550] to adding that capacity. We've been very pleased with I recall that in the discussions about that throughout the way the staff and team have been able to work with the time period that government had first announced.... those municipalities. So I look forward to a new facility They said it would be at that location, that they weren't opening in the Okanagan in 2015. going to consider any other location and that the deci- sion had been made. But it was sold, or tried to be sold, K. Corrigan: Well, then, it sounds like the ministry to the community as a facility for — you know, I can't has learned a lesson. I appreciate that the minister is remember — around 350. making commitments to things changing or discussing It was only much later, through doing FOIs and a lot with staff some of their concerns about overcrowding, of digging, that we found out, in fact, that it was another about their safety concerns, and addressing the fact facility where the actual capacity could be up to 700. It that we have such an overcrowding at our institutions made my community quite angry when people found throughout this province. out that, in fact, what was being sold to them was some- But the reality is that we now have a new minister say- thing that would house — I think they said — 350 cells. ing, I think, that things are different now. We have had Maybe there was something of an assumption there, but a revolving door of Solicitors General. We've had no ac- certainly, the impression of the community was that it tion on these issues for months, if not years. So now this was going to be 350. minister inherits the legacy of, frankly, neglect in this re- Certainly, apart from the safety issues, I also think it's gard. It has been a Liberal government that has had the very important for government to be honest when they are looking at siting a facility in a community — that a ability to address these concerns as they intensified over lesson be learned from what happened in Burnaby and the last ten years. I'm very pleased to hear that things that government consult fully and take into account lo- are going to be done differently under this new minister, cal wishes. As well, be forthright in what it is exactly that and I look forward to that. a community is going to get. I am aware that we are under significant time con- Now, my understanding is that in the Okanagan straints, and there are a number of areas that I wanted to there is more consultation happening, and I commend ask questions now of the minister this afternoon.I think government for that. I think that's appropriate, but it what I'm going do is ask a couple of very quick ques- certainly didn't happen in my community. The numbers tions that I would have preferred to have had a much in my community were, at best, hazy — if not somewhat longer time to do. The reality is that we have a very lim- misrepresented. ited number of hours for estimates this year, since we're closing on June 1, after just a month of sitting. Oh, I'm Hon. S. Bond: I don't want to end this section of the sorry; there was another week beyond that. discussion by underestimating the concern we have [1555] when corrections officers express their concerns about I'll ask a couple of questions about the B.C. Coroners their safety. We pay attention to that. Service, and I will ask very quick questions on the mid- I am the new Solicitor General, but I look forward to rise wood-frame construction. Then we are going to go meeting with Mr. Purdy to talk through the issues that to motor vehicles and ICBC. I think we should manage the BCGEU has made public. We will certainly have a to do this. We have two hours and a quarter. discussion about those with every intent to try to, first I was going to ask a couple of questions about the of all, increase capacity and provide additional support. Coroners Service at this point. My question is very short, As I said earlier, we've undertaken the largest expansion actually. There won't be much. We had a sudden resig- of capital related to correctional facilities in the history nation on December 13, 2010. After only eight months of British Columbia. on the job Dr. Diane Rothon suddenly resigned as B.C.'s Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6867

chief coroner. She cited differences of vision with the Hon. S. Bond: I'm only going to reiterate the fact provincial government over the direction of the office that the coroner's office is independent, so government as the reason for her abrupt resignation. But in addi- doesn't and didn't direct the coroner's office to change tion, I believe that some e-mails were FOI'd that said Dr. anything. Rothon was forced to leave her position by government In fact, the only change that I'm aware of and that is compromising her professional ethics and personal val- visible is the fact that we now have Lisa Lapointe as the ues. She also accused government of weakening and chief coroner in British Columbia. I'm sure that as the eroding the coroner's role. chief coroner, she will make the decisions that are ap- Media reports — I can't confirm this — indicate that propriate for the Coroners Service. the former chief coroner was paid $128,000 in severance The Coroners Service investigates 7,700 deaths each after just eight months on the job. year and makes recommendations to the government. My question to the minister is: what reason can the That's the role of the Coroners Service, and the only vis- government provide for the sudden resignation of for- ible change that I'm aware of is the fact that we have a mer chief coroner Diane Rothon in December of last new chief coroner. year? K. Corrigan: So the minister is saying that the cor- Hon. S. Bond: Before I respond to that, I'd like oner's office is independent. Is it an independent office to introduce British Columbia's chief coroner, Lisa of the Legislature? Lapointe, and also the commissioner of emergency management British Columbia, Becky Denlinger, who Hon. S. Bond: The independence of the Coroners are joining me for this section. Service is not related to being an independent office; it's re- This is a personnel matter.I will not be discussing the lated to their investigations. The province, the government details of the termination of the chief coroner. of British Columbia, has no role, no involvement, in the investigations that the Coroners Service conducts. They K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister can ex- are independent, and that's the relationship to the word plain to me why she can't explain the circumstances, "independent." Those recommendations are provided to what differences there were between the chief coroner government, but there is no role for the government in and government and that there can be no rationale the 7,700 deaths that are investigated each year. provided. K. Corrigan: So it is not an independent office. The Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite should well individual investigations are independent, but how in- know that there are privacy reasons attached to that type of decision. The termination of an employee is actually a dependent is the Coroners Service from government personnel issue that we would not typically discuss. involvement? [1605] K. Corrigan: I will go to the comments that govern- ment is weakening and eroding the coroner's role. So we Hon. S. Bond: All of the core functions that are won't talk about the circumstances of Diane Rothon's critical to the Coroners Service, including decisions leaving, but I'm wondering if the minister could com- around policy, training, hiring and, most critically, in- ment on how the coroner's role could have been vestigations — all of those are done independently. weakened and eroded or that there would be a chief cor- oner who felt that there was a weakening and eroding of K. Corrigan: Does the coroner serve at the pleasure the coroner's role. of the minister?

Hon. S. Bond: We don't share the view that, in fact, Hon. S. Bond: The chief coroner is appointed byOIC . the coroner's office has been weakened or eroded. It It is a three-year term, and that is renewable. is an independent organization, and I'm not going to speculate on the comments that Dr. Rothon made. K. Corrigan: Okay. I'm going to go back to a Vancouver [1600] Sun article of December 2010 which said: "B.C.'s chief coroner has left the job she took just eight months ago, K. Corrigan: In a December 13 departure letter to saying she had a difference of opinion with the provin- colleagues, former chief coroner Rothon described her cial government on the future of the office. 'We just really inability to continue on in a system where plans are couldn't see eye to eye,' Diane Rothon told Postmedia in place for the Coroners Service that will continue to News on Wednesday. 'I have a different vision for the erode and weaken the service. coroner's office. It's at variance with others, I guess.'" Maybe the minister could just elaborate on what kinds While I appreciate that the minister will not talk about of changes are being planned for the Coroners Service. the reasons that Diane Rothon left, she already said them 6868 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

publicly, that she couldn't see eye to eye. She had e-mails K. Corrigan: I am so fascinated by this subject. I that said that her integrity was in jeopardy. She had a would love to ask questions, because I'm completely per- different vision for the coroner's office. My question to plexed about how it could be that the coroner could say the minister is: what was that different vision? things like: "I have a different vision for the coroner's office than government." And the answers that I'm get- Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact, I am not going to discuss ting from this minister about how independent they are the termination of an employee. It is a personnel matter — obviously, Diane Rothon did not feel that that was the and, for privacy reasons, cannot be discussed. case, because she left, and she left with great concern. I am not going to ask any more questions about that, be- K. Corrigan: I'm not asking the minister to discuss cause time is marching on. the personnel matter or the termination. I'm asking I think, unfortunately, that I may have misled you a what the difference of opinion is, what the changes are, bit. I said I was going to ask some questions about the what the plans were that are changing in the coroner's fire service. I think that I'll leave that for a little while, office. if that's all right, because I have some people here that need to go back to the other House or need to go to Hon. S. Bond: To my knowledge, what changed in other appointments. the coroner's office was that we have a new chief- cor I know we'll probably need to make a little switch, but oner. There was no wholesale change of direction. There I think we're going to go on to some.... We're going to do is no direction provided by the government to the a few motor vehicle questions, and then we're going to Coroners Service. In fact, the Coroners Service is in- go to some ICBC questions. I'm hoping to come back. dependent. Independent means that the chief coroner The Coroners Service is finished, and I'm hoping that has the ability to hire staff, to design training and to con- we'll come back to fire questions before we break, if I duct investigations. Information related to a particular have time. Is that okay with you, Minister? recommendation would be conveyed to the government. So there was no significant, wholesale change. There Hon. S. Bond: Sorry. Just to wrap the comments on were no changes made, other than we have a new chief the independence of the Coroners Service. The mem- coroner. ber opposite says she's perplexed. I'm not sure why she wouldn't understand that, in fact, if a person has been K. Corrigan: Well, it's a bit perplexing, then, because terminated from her position, there may be a difference we have quotes from the former chief coroner saying of opinion. that there was a different vision, that her integrity was being compromised, or something along that line, and K. Corrigan: Well, absolutely. There obviously is that there was a change of direction in the office that she a difference of opinion, but I think the issue was in- couldn't see eye to eye with. dependence. The coroner obviously felt that something Yet I'm being told by the minister that there has been about what had happened compromised her independ- absolutely no change and the only change was that she ence and her ability to do the job that she had been hired left. Yet her very statements when she left are not con- to do. sistent with the comments that the minister is taking. With that, I think I'm going to hand the questioning over to my friend from Skeena. Interjection. R. Austin: I'd like to change the subject and ask a few K. Corrigan: They're not. They're not consistent with questions. I think it's very timely that this is May, which what she said at the time she left. is motorcycle safety awareness month. I would like to Does the ministry set the policy procedures and dir- ask a couple of questions around motorcycle safety. ection of the coroner's office? I just want to give a little bit of context to the minister, [1610] because obviously, in the last couple of months, this be- ing a new ministry that she's handling, she'd have had Hon. S. Bond: I think, having answered this on more to read an awful lot of material. So I just want to give a than one occasion, the word "independent" means little bit of context. that the chief coroner and the Coroners Service are I'm asking specifically around an issue of the gradu- independent. We do not set policy. We do not give direc- ated licensing system for motorcyclists. Last year, in tion. We receive recommendations after investigations May of 2010, Bill 14, the Motor Vehicle Amendment are conducted. We do not provide direction in terms of Act, was brought in and passed by the Legislature. Part protocol, policy, hiring — any of those issues. Those are of that was to give the government the right to bring dealt with independently by the chief coroner. in, by regulation, some changes — namely, to bring in a Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6869

graduated licensing system for motorcyclists; to bring in varying views, as much as we might be passionate about regulations around doubling, or two people riding on a a particular direction. motorcycle that's not designed for that specifically; and, I do need to finish doing that work. I know that's not of course, to regulate helmets. a comfortable feeling for those families, but I'm com- What I'd like to speak to today, though, is specific- mitted to doing that. In the short term I certainly want ally around graduated licensing. I'm representing some to get clarity around things like the helmet regulations. I families here who tragically lost their children at a very think we need to deliver that in the shorter term. young age as a result of being able to go out and purchase extremely powerful motorcycles. One person grew up in R. Austin: Do I have this correctly, then? With re- Kitimat. His name was Corey Lodge, and on March 2 of gard to the helmet part of it, is the minister saying that 2005 he bought a 1,000-cc GSX crotch-rocket, a high- that is going to be done fairly quickly because that has speed racing motorcycle, and the following day died not been dealt with? The stakeholders are in agreement on far from here on the Malahat. the helmet issue, and there aren't any issues around the His family and others have been lobbying the govern- public policy aspect of it. ment and several Solicitors General since 2005 to bring But is the problem…? I assume, then, on the regula- in a graduated licensing system for motorcycles in the tions around two people sitting on a motorcycle that's same way that we have the changes that were brought in not designed for two, that that also is probably not very years ago for graduated licensing for cars, which I think complicated. Am I right in assuming that there are com- the minister would agree has been very successful. plications around the regulations, then, around the [1615] graduated licensing system? Are there still outstanding Now, the law was passed. The act was passed, but the issues that the minister is hearing on that specific issue regulations haven't been brought in. I simply want to from various stakeholders? ask the minister what the delay has been in regards to that, because this family has been working on this issue, Hon. S. Bond: I think the most important point is that, and many families, obviously, have lost children in these as the member points out, the bill was an enabling act tragic circumstances. We'd like to see this happen as that allows us to do the work necessary to look thought- quickly as possible so that we don't see these kinds of fully at the issues that have been included in that bill. As tragedies happening in the future and other families you can imagine, I've only been on the job a matter of aren't put through this horrendous act. weeks and want to first get fully up to speed on the work that has been done. It has been fairly extensive. Hon. S. Bond: I appreciate the very thoughtful ques- There has been a long period of conversation about tion of the member opposite. I am certainly aware of the effectiveness of graduated licensing and all of those both the Lodges' circumstance and also other families. additional issues. What I would like to do is be able to There is a family in Prince George who also faced the demonstrate that we're committed to making sure that same circumstances. None of us, certainly, as parents there is improved motorcycle safety in British Columbia. want to face those kinds of situations, so I appreciate the I know that ultimately…. Right at the moment we have, question. for example, motorcycle helmet issues that need to be I have spent some time, not enough time yet to be able addressed. We need to make sure that there are stan- to fully outline where the next steps might take place, but dards for the use of motorcycle helmets. I have spent time, obviously, meeting with Steve Martin, I think what I'm trying to say is that there are some who is the superintendent of motor vehicles and who things that we can move more quickly on. I need to do joins me here today. a bit more work to fully understand the issues and the A lot of work has been done. In my view, as a new concerns around a couple of the other issues, but I'm minister I still need to take some time to have a conver- committed to doing my homework to get up to speed sation about the effectiveness, the impact, all of those as quickly as possible. We recognize, you know, that kinds of things. In the short term I'm very interested in motorcycle riders are among the most vulnerable on our moving forward on some of the issues related to helmets, roads. for sure. We have to get that done because ultimately we [1620] need to correct the situation that exists today. So I think I also think there's a dual responsibility to look at there are some things in the shorter term that I can vehicles to make sure that they understand the appro- move more quickly on. priateness of how you manage with motorcycles on the I do want to express my concern about the length of highway. They share the road. time and the impatience, understandably, which fam- I understand the anxiety. I understand the need to ilies feel. I am aware of the work. It is complex, and there move forward. After only a few weeks in the job, I do are a lot of implications. I've made a commitment to sit want to move some things forward, perhaps more quickly down with stakeholders that have views. And there are — others need a bit more time for me to understand the 6870 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

implications — and at least meet with stakeholders to Again, I hope to demonstrate the fact that it matters to better understand some of those varying views. us by, in the shorter term, trying to move some of those initiatives out the door and allow me to catch up on the R. Austin: I just have one more question, then, and I work that's been done. thank the minister. She obviously is showing a real will- The work will continue; a lot has been done. We under- ingness to work on these specific issues. stand the importance of this. And I, like you, certainly I think, for people who are advocating for things like do not want to see other young people in the province this, where they want to prevent other families from go- face similar circumstances, or their families. ing through the tragedies that these families have had to go through, they look at government and the processes C. Trevena: I'd like to switch tack a little with the min- of government, and they don't necessarily understand ister, if that would be possible, to look at the DriveABLE the complexities of it. Frankly, I'm here, and sometimes program. We've had concerns from a number of my con- I don't understand the complexities of it. stituents on a couple of issues that I'd just like to canvass Let me ask the minister this. The House is going to with the minister. rest on June 2. This is enabling legislation that can be The DriveABLE program is for seniors who are brought in by cabinet, by the executive, through OICs, deemed to need to have a test to ensure that they can provided we don't go to an early election, which may keep their driving licence. I've heard from a couple of happen. Is there ongoing work that happens by ministry constituents. One of the serious concerns that they have staff, irrespective of what happens on the political side, is in rural areas and the distance they have to travel to so that if there is an early election, these families can ex- take this test. pect the new government of the day to have done all of For instance, for a senior on Cortes Island it's a matter that work, so that we won't have to be waiting — it was of two ferries, and then it's still a drive down to Nanaimo. 2005 since this was first brought forward — for several If they pass the test, they've got to come back and drive more years in case there's a new government or a new all the way back. If they don't pass the test, they've got to minister? have somebody to drive them back. I appreciate that the minister has only been here for I wondered if the minister was looking at any way of a couple of months, but we have gone through six or ensuring that this test is available more widely around seven Solicitors General, most of whom have said pub- the province. licly that they agreed with these things, and yet it hasn't [1625] taken place. Could I get some assurance from the min- ister that there won't be substantive delay due to any Hon. S. Bond: It's certainly an issue that I've heard election and that, hopefully, if we come back in the fall, about, not only from members of the opposition caucus we will have seen these regulations brought in sooner but also our own. In fact, I have spent a lot of time better rather than later? understanding DriveABLE. I had the DriveABLE team come to my office and actually bring the terminal that Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, one of the things that I seniors and others — it's not all seniors; I should be clear know about…. The member opposite just asked about about that — have to go through and what they experi- the chief coroner serving at the pleasure of the minister. ence. It was very helpful for me. We all know that ministers serve at the pleasure of the I think what we do need to remember is that Premier, so I can only work as hard as I can for as long as DriveABLE is basically a medical…. There is a medical I have this role, and that's what I'm committed to doing. necessity for the testing to take place, for the assessment Absolutely, the work will continue, and I want to be to take place and potentially for the test. very clear about that. Believe me, there is a large volume Yes, I am concerned. Like the member opposite, I live of work that has been done, which is one of the reasons in a rural and northern part of British Columbia, and that I need to make sure that I'm very familiar with the certainly my colleagues have expressed their concerns implications and with the work that has been done. about DriveABLE. I have tried to work very carefully The team has been very committed to following up with them and would be happy to do the same with the on issues. For example, in the Lodges' case, I know that members opposite. education is a very critical part. I think that COREY is I think what we're trying to do is potentially look at the name of the organization that the Lodges so appro- a mobile version of the assessment so that we would be priately created. We commit that the work is continuing able to take the test more broadly to the people where to be done. There's not going to be a large bureaucratic they live. We're already seeing an example of that. I hold-up should there be an early election — and who think we currently have a mobile unit being used in Fort knows? St. John. Is that correct? It is. We are committed to the importance of motorcycle I think we recognize the challenge, and it's a very anx- safety, to the views that families in the province hold. ious period of time. We know how important driving Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6871

is for people. I know my family has experienced that with a senior, for example, where they're shown how to personally with my father, and it was a very difficult cir- do the touch screen. cumstance. I think we recognize the concerns. We're The other thing is that we could provide some infor- working to see the model evolve. It is a very necessary mation that shows the scientific background that has process. gone into the development of the program. It is very When I saw the outcomes and understood the ration- significant. ale…. I think we could do it better. I think we could do it [1630] with a mobile version. I think we need better education. Also important is that the vast majority of cases are I don't think we should be waiting for 80-year-olds to physician referred. At 80 there's an automatic referral, suddenly be informed that they have to go through this an automatic letter. I want to make sure we're looking at process. We need to start working with families much the tone of that letter and whether there's a way to better earlier on, with senior centres, to explain why. communicate that, especially earlier. The other thing I'd like to offer the member oppos- But typically, the referrals are physician-driven, and ite is that I would be very happy to set up a similar type physicians would refer the person to the DriveABLE of briefing and hands-on opportunity for the opposition test. caucus to go through the DriveABLE experience and I think we have taken into consideration some of the understand it. It was very helpful to me, and I think my issues that the member opposite raises, but I would also caucus colleagues would agree with that. I'd be happy to be very happy to have someone from the DriveABLE or set up the same opportunity for the opposition caucus. from the Office of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles contact the gentleman that's been mentioned to talk to C. Trevena: I thank the minister for the offer, and on him about some of those concerns, because we're al- behalf of the opposition caucus I'd like to accept the of- ways looking at making sure that it's appropriate and fer. I think it would be very useful to have that and also accurate. to explore the idea of a mobile unit. As I said, I think that, first of all, seeing it in person One of the concerns, though, is that because it is at and experiencing it is really helpful and then contem- the same time a cognitive test and a computer test…. I'd plating how we can improve the model for northern and be very interested in seeing it. One of my constituents, rural communities in particular. Happy to contact the Gordon Turnbull from Whaletown on Cortes Island, gentleman and discuss some of those issues with him. actually wrote to the B.C. Medical Journal. His concern about this is the cognitive aspect of it. C. Trevena: I thank the minister and will pass on the If I might quote from his letter, he says: "Most sen- details about this to her office. I think it would be very iors being tested this way are unfamiliar with computers, useful to see it in practice and also to see some of the re- touch screens and computer-generated visuals. If they search behind it. fail the test, they are told so within two minutes by a The minister, though, well knows that it is, as she's clerk. There is no appeal; the licence is revoked on the mentioned, a very significant step that all seniors who spot. You can retest after six months for $200. Imagine face this are going through — particularly, as she repre- being told that you're cognitively deficient, not by a doc- sents a more remote rural area too, the fact that they tor but by a clerk." may not have access to other forms of transportation if I have a question to the minister. It is a medical issue, they lose their licence. This is very significant for their but again, building in the sensitivities of this and how we whole way of life. can ensure that what is a computer test is really under- Anything we can do to ensure that we can get the edu- stood and accessible. The other thing, before the minister cation done and the information out there would be responds on this…. The other point that he raises is that very much appreciated. he states there's a misdiagnosis in this test of one in five. I wondered if the minister has any comment on the use Hon. S. Bond: Well, I want to thank the member op- of DriveABLE as the software that's being used rather posite for bringing up the issue, and members of my than any other software that is available for this testing. own caucus who have done that. It's also been demon- strated and pointed out to me by some of the members Hon. S. Bond: Once we set up the opportunity for of my caucus that if you are from a rural location and the member opposite and the opposition caucus to take have to travel, there's the potential that you also have to a look at it…. It is a touch-screen process, so it doesn't stay overnight or incur additional costs. So while the re- require computing skills. One of the things that really ferral is actually paid for, the actual test — the first time, impressed me was that the staff are specially trained to at least — there is a bit of an advantage potentially for actually conduct the assessment, and they're very, very urban seniors and others who have to take the test. thoughtful about the anxiety levels. There are practices That does concern me.I 've expressed that to the Office done so that they sit and walk through that experience of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles, and they've 6872 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

recognized that we need to do some work on that. I I guess what I'll do, then, is just ask for one piece of think it's another area of mutual agreement on both our information. Sorry to bring you up for this one thing be- parts — that there does need to be work. cause it takes a little bit of time to compile, but I was very I'm going to ask Steve to make sure that he contacts pleased to receive it last year. your caucus to offer the opportunity for a hands-on Last year I requested in estimates the funding demonstration. Also, we'd be happy to share the same information on victim services programs and violence- package of information that we provided to our caucus against-women programs. I received an initial listing of members who walked through the development of the the programs and then clarified that what I was look- program. ing for was something much more detailed — a detailed Certainly, I'm committed to looking at how we can list of the contracted front-line programs and funding better accommodate the needs of those seniors, in par- amounts organized by community. ticular, who live in more rural parts of the province. I I was very pleased that the ministry provided that appreciate the question, and I'm happy to work collab- to me. If the ministry needs to see what I received last oratively to try to provide more information. year…. You probably have a record of it. I would appre- ciate receiving the same information as I did last year. K. Corrigan: I apologize in advance to the minister It was appreciated. There were many service provid- because I know it's going to mean some staff changes. ers who used this information throughout the year and But because of people coming in and out of the ques- were pleased to have it. tions now, we're probably going to do a little bit of I'm sorry to have kept you here all afternoon to simply switching back and forth, complicated by the fact that I ask for that and to make arrangements for a future time have a flight at 6:30 p.m. when we sit down together. I think maybe that's what I'll I want to ask a couple of very quick questions right do at this point, because it's quarter to five, and we only now about victim services and particularly about pro- have about an hour and probably 20 minutes, something grams regarding violence against women — victim like that. service programs regarding violence against women. Minister, I'm wondering: will we still have the ICBC Hon. S. Bond: Just to confirm to the member oppos- people here later? ite, we'd be happy to compile that list. I think we could sit down and have a mutual discussion about areas that Hon. S. Bond: Yes, they're not going anywhere. the member opposite would like to get not only more in- formation on, but I'd be interested in hearing her views K. Corrigan: They're not going anywhere. Perfect. and sharing. I know that she's very passionate about this, Thank you so much. I appreciate it. and I would appreciate the opportunity to hear from her As I'm sure the minister knows, issues of domestic on the subject. violence are near and dear to my heart. I'm very con- Tara and I would be happy to sit down and do that. cerned about domestic violence, as I'm sure the minister is as well. I had a whole series of questions that I was K. Corrigan: Well, thank you. I appreciate your com- going to ask, but we are really running up against time ments, Minister, and that will be, I'm sure, a very fruitful constraints. discussion. I look forward to it. [1635] I wanted to turn for a few minutes to the changes to I will ask just one or two and then perhaps ask the the building code that allowed mid-rise wood-frame minister if it would be possible for me to follow up in construction of buildings up to six storeys. writing with some questions. Perhaps we can get some Again, probably a switch of chairs. I'll wait for a information that I was hoping to get through writing at second. a later point. Is that okay with the minister? Hon. S. Bond: I may be able to save the opposition Hon. S. Bond: That would be very appropriate. I critic some time, because the building code actually would also be happy to sit down personally with our doesn't fall under our ministry. It falls under the staff and with the opposition critic to discuss the issue. Ministry of Energy and Mines and Housing, I think. I She's correct. It's a very compelling issue for me, as well, do obviously have Becky Denlinger here. But Becky's re- and one of the first briefings I asked for. sponsible for emergency management British Columbia, We'd be happy to sit down, and maybe we could go and in fact that would deal with fire but not necessarily through those questions in person rather than in writ- directly targeted to buildings. So the building code is no ing. We'd be happy to do that. longer under my area of responsibility.

K. Corrigan: Well, I appreciate that, Minister, and I K. Corrigan: Apparently, if it's no longer under your will absolutely take you up on it. We'll plan to do that in area of responsibility, it's no longer under my area of the next little while. I appreciate it. critic as well. We're both learning so much today. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6873

If I had questions about the representations that were about the impact of particularly drinking and driv- made by various industry groups, experts, fire chiefs, etc. ing — new penalties, combined with the HST of course asking about the decisions that were made and, of course, — and the finding was printed just a day before in the referencing what has happened in Richmond — I won't Vancouver Sun: "Nearly nine out of ten restaurants in B.C. say tragically; luckily, nobody was injured — this would have seen sales drop since the introduction of the HST not be the appropriate place to ask those questions? and new drinking and driving penalties, according to a survey by the Canadian Restaurant and Food Services Hon. S. Bond: Despite having a new deputy and a Association." Clearly, there has been a huge impact when new minister, we both agree that this does not fall under it comes to the sales in the restaurant industry. our jurisdiction. The responsibility for the building code [1645] — I'm assuming where that discussion would have taken So I would like to ask the minister. We don't know place — rests with the Ministry of Energy and Mines what kind of consultation took place before imple- and Housing. Is that the title? menting this new penalty, but in light of this finding, [1640] which clearly states that in nine out of ten businesses sales have dropped, will the minister review these find- K. Corrigan: Well, I've gone through two whole areas ings and work with the restaurant industry to find out if of questioning in 3½ minutes. I guess we'll move on. there's any solution which is workable for both parties?

Interjection. Hon. S. Bond: Well, thank you to the member op- posite. I certainly intend — and, in fact, have meetings K. Corrigan: That's right. Thank you so much for scheduled — to meet with a variety of groups related your answers. to this issue. I think we do need to have really good Okay. ThenI am going to perhaps…. I have my friend communication about what happened and what is here. My colleague here from Surrey has some questions happening. he wants to ask about drinking and driving. Maybe we'll The former Solicitor General also agreed that some just slot those in right now while I regroup. additional work should be done, and we are doing that work. The member cites statistics that have been pro- J. Brar: I would like to ask a question to the minister vided by small businesses and restaurants in particular, about the new rule of drinking and driving and the im- and we are also doing that work. I think it's important pact it has on the small business community. that we have a look at the impacts. I understand clearly the intent of this new rule of I think the other impacts that it's very important to drinking and driving, which is a good one, but I also contemplate are related to what impact it's had in terms understand that when policy like this is implemented, of public safety in British Columbia. That was -cer there is a process and plan to develop the policy as well as to implement the policy. tainly the driving factor in looking at the creation of the My question to the minister is: was there any consul- toughest impaired driving laws in the country. I think tation done with the small business community before it's important that work be done both from the safety implementing this new policy and new rules about perspective and.... Today, even as recently as question drinking and driving? period, we heard the Attorney General reference the fact that early data would show us that there's been a dra- Hon. S. Bond: Certainly I am aware of the fact that matic reduction in fatalities, in particular. in early 2011 the former Solicitor General met with a So to the member opposite's point, the former broad cross-section of the food and beverage industry Solicitor General assigned some work to be done to re- to hear from them. I am not aware of the degree, if any, view the impacts, and that work is currently underway. of consultation that took place with small business, but I am informed that, in fact, there was significant discus- J. Brar: I will ask one more question. I appreciate the sion with police and law enforcement agencies — that response. type of discussion. My understanding is that there will be some sort of I am not aware of the degree, if any, of the consultation consultation, particularly with the restaurant indus- that took place. The previous Solicitor General, though, try, keeping in mind these new penalties. Again, I just as I point out, did meet with a broad cross-section of in- want to emphasize that I understand the intent, which terests in early 2011. is a good one, of these new penalties and rules. At the same time, if there's anything that can be done, at least J. Brar: Thanks to the minister for the response. I ap- to understand the perspective of the restaurant industry, preciate the answer given by the minister. to just talk to them, that will be, of course, good in this Just recently there was a survey conducted by the particular case. Canadian Restaurant and Food Services Association With that, thank you very much for the answers. 6874 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

The Chair: Recognizing the member from Burnaby– In fact, those dollars will be returned to govern- Deer Lakes. ment. I think the benefit of that is obvious to British Columbians — that it will then be part of what helps to K. Corrigan: Lake — singular. We're going to get provide exceptional health care and education services there. in the province. We are in the position of being able to do this only very recently, and in essence, our first prin- The Chair:B oy, I tell you, I've got some work to do. ciple is to ensure that the company has enough money to meet its expectations in terms of regulatory require- K. Corrigan: It's all right. I can't remember all that. I ments and additional expectations. don't know how you people do it in those chairs. I'm going to ask a series of questions about ICBC now, K. Corrigan: It is appropriate, I think, for some and I promise that I will stick to that subject for a while. amount of money to go back to government. I wouldn't We're all very proud of ICBC. It has been a jewel in dispute that. But $600 million, almost, in 2011? the crown of British Columbia. So I think all British ICBC is not a private company. It's a Crown cor- Columbians want to maintain it but, obviously, improve poration, and I think it has been traditionally run as a it as well. cooperative, essentially, to provide reasonably priced I do have a number of questions about ICBC and what auto insurance for the people of British Columbia. So seems to be some change in the approach and some I'm not sure that the people of B.C. really understand change to some of the programs and so on — some of what's happening, but it seems to me that that is a pretty which are concerning to me and others who have spoken outrageous amount of money to be coming from drivers to me. back to government revenues. The first thing I wanted to talk about was the amount of excess optional insurance capital transferred to the Hon. S. Bond: I think what's important is that, in province. fact, ICBC is going to be well protected in terms of the [1650] amount of capital required, which is actually determined In the Budget 2010 the plan was for $487 million by ICBC's actuaries, and they do that in accordance to be taken out in 2010-11; 2011-12 was $144 million; with federal regulatory guidance and validated by an in- and 2012-13 was $778 million. In the Budget 2011 that dependent actuary. amount for 2010-11 increased to $580 million. For [1655] 2011-12, it's $185 million; for 2012-13, $225 million; Our principle is that we want to be sure that ICBC has and for 2013-14, $225 million, which means that the the ability to operate, to continue to invest, and when province is going to take $1.215 billion out of ICBC — there is higher than expected investment income, it is has or will over a period of four years — and put it into, clear that those dollars, wherever possible, will be re- presumably, general revenue. turned to government. My question for the minister is: does the minister think it's appropriate to be taking this much money, which K. Corrigan: Well, you said that this was information is essentially paid for by British Columbians through that was provided by actuaries. I'm wondering: is the their premiums for auto insurance, out of the Insurance minister saying that the actuaries that provided the esti- Corporation and placing it into general revenue? mates were so far off that they missed by $600 million?

The Chair: For all those hundreds of thousands Hon. S. Bond: In 2011 and 2012 the higher forecasted watching around today, I would like to recognize the amount that will be transferred is due to improved prof- Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. itability from the optional business but also a result of lower claim costs and significantly higher investment Hon. S. Bond: Well, thank you very much. Hundreds income. of thousands — boy, our ratings have gone up. It must be the scintillating debate between the opposition critic K. Corrigan: Families in British Columbia struggle and I. So that's good news. to make their bill payments every month, and one of the Well, I think, in essence, the most important principle things that most families are required to have — at least that we have to remember is that government is com- one in a family, usually — is a vehicle. Some people man- mitted to ensuring that there is enough money in the age not to, but many, many people, particularly in rural company to meet regulatory requirements. We expect areas, are required to have a vehicle just to go to work to there to be protection against unexpected events, volatile meet their living obligations to live, work and play. rates and also that ICBC can reinvest in their business. I think that British Columbians generally would agree It's only been very recently, in fact, that ICBC has ac- with me that $580 million for 2010 and 2011 is excessive cumulated more operating capital than is required. when an option, my assumption would be, would be to Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6875

reduce insurance rates to take some of that burden off what it is this year. We're talking about a $100 million families. Now, I understand there was a small reduction increase. What are the two time periods, and what are in November, but certainly, with that kind of slack, a lar- the amounts that we're talking about? ger reduction could have been possible. [1705]

[D. Barnett in the chair.] Hon. S. Bond: I neglected to introduce Jon Schubert, who is the president and CEO of ICBC, and Anwar Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite talks about re- Chaudhry, who is the controller who is madly looking ductions. In fact, in 2010 ICBC's optional rates were up the numbers, for the member opposite, related to reduced by an average of 3 percent. It is the fifth time in bodily injury. six years that ICBC has lowered optional rates, for a total I should point out, though, that bodily injury does not cumulative decrease of approximately 20 percent. So impact optional unless it is above $200,000, so actually there has been a consistent approach to looking at what it's a very small impact on the optional side, which is is reasonable, and we've seen rates go down for the fifth why we're seeing improved results on the optional side. time in six years. Again, one of the reasons that there are Where the pressure really comes is on the basic side. We additional dollars being returned to government is that will certainly get those, the year-over-year numbers, if we have seen an increase and higher-than-expected in- we have them, as soon as Anwar can find them. vestment income. You know, we recognize the importance of mitigating K. Corrigan: Without knowing exactly what those rate increases on British Columbians, and our Premier numbers are, the media report that I saw was that there has made it very clear. In fact, we are looking at issues had been a $100 million increase in claims. I would as- like B.C. Hydro and B.C. Ferries, and ICBC will be sume that that would be an increase…. And I'm not counted among those as well. We recognize the import- suggesting that is the number, but that was what was re- ance of mitigating rate increases, and that's why you've ported. I'm not sure of the time period, either, so if I seen optional rates drop five times out of six years. could get clarification on that as well.

K. Corrigan: I wanted to ask some questions about Hon. S. Bond: We will certainly commit to trying the number of claims and the value of claims. I thought to get those numbers for the member opposite. Maybe I just heard the minister say that there was actually a de- what I'll do is just explain how that number was used. crease in claims, and yet there's a story posted on April The member is correct. The number $100 million was 7 that I read that said that ICBC claims have increased used, and what it was used as was a demonstration of by $100 million. I wonder if the minister could explain how incremental bodily injury claims drive the cost. that. For example, if there are 14.5 bodily injury claims for [1700] every 1,000 customers, an increase of one bodily injury claim — so you have 15½ for every 1,000 drivers — ac- Hon. S. Bond: When we talk about bodily injury, the tually drives the cost up by $100 million. That's where side of the business…. Obviously ICBC has two busi- the number came from. It was really an example used to nesses, basically. But on the bodily injury side we have talk about incremental costs and that every additional seen claims increase there, and it is adding pressure on bodily injury claim has a dramatic increase in costs. the basic side of the business. As the member opposite We don't have the total broken down into just bod- would know, those rates are regulated by BCUC. ily injury costs. I can tell you that claims and related In fact, we are looking at the bodily injury claims. As costs rose more than $100 million over last year, from I said, those numbers are increasing. We are concerned $3.57 billion to $3.76 billion. In that mix the number of about that. We want to better understand why that is the vehicle damage claims dropped, while the number and case, so we're having a good look at bodily injury. costs of bodily injury went up. That's where you get the My comments around crashes being reduced are on two sides of the business and the impacts — negatively the impact in terms of the number of crashes. Damage on the basic and positively on the optional. related to those is on the optional side, so that's why we see pressure on the basic side — because of bodily injury K. Corrigan: I thank you for that. So we're in agree- claims — and a much better scenario on the optional ment that whatever amount it is, the costs on the bodily side, because damage related to those crashes is on the or the personal injury side went up somewhat over the optional side. last year.

K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could tell Hon. S. Bond: That's correct, and we're simply not me what the amount of bodily injury — personal injury able to articulate at the moment what that cost was year claims are the same thing, I assume — was last year and over year. But the important point to note is that even 6876 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

increasing by one bodily injury claim out of 1,000 cus- Hon. S. Bond: It is a negotiated agreement that is in tomers drives $100 million in cost. place. Apparently, the current three-year agreement ex- pires next year. On average, the existing agreement has K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could seen increases of about 2 percent over the course of three speculate on the cause of that increase. years, so in fact there have been increases. It is a negoti- [1710] ated contract, it expires next year, and negotiations will begin around the next three-year contract. Hon. S. Bond: Actually, I can't. From the sense….You know, we've just discussed a couple of things. For ex- K. Corrigan: Well, that's certainly not the informa- ample, it could be more weather incidents. It can be a tion that I was given. So nobody has been told that rates variety of things. In fact, there is concern at ICBC. Jon are going to be frozen for three years? and his team are looking at that very question, because obviously it adds pressure to the basic side. So we want Hon. S. Bond: I am advised that that has not been to try to better understand it. the message that has been conveyed, that there is a ne- It could be random; it could be weather; it could be gotiation period and that it will commence before the technology; it could be a number of causes. There is go- expiration of this three-year contract. ing to be work done to try to decide what influenced that increase. K. Corrigan: Has there been a change to how bill- ing is done? My understanding is that ICBC has gone K. Corrigan: Well, I have one suggestion about why to a computerized billing system that compartmental- the cost for bodily injury went up so much. I'll make izes each and every thing that a lawyer does. I'm told a suggestion about it — that there's been a significant that this is resulting in rejection of about 10 percent, change in how legal services are provided, the cost of or something along that line, of things that are billed legal services and what is happening with legal services by lawyers, which means that they are not getting paid provided by lawyers to ICBC. what they used to get paid. [1720] Hon. S. Bond: It's probably a valid observation. I am advised that we're seeing more bodily injury claims, Hon. S. Bond: It's believed that last year a legal audit people utilizing lawyers, and that requires ICBC to use billing process did begin at ICBC. It means that as law- legal services. So in essence there probably is an in- yers submit their bills, there is an automatic auditing creased demand for dollars to fund legal services related of the services that they've provided. And yes, indeed, to bodily injury claims. there has actually been rejection of some bills or some parts of bills, I'm assuming. K. Corrigan: That is not whatI was suggesting. What That process did start last year. In fact, I'm told that, I was suggesting is that…. That is a possibility. I can generally, industry uses it. ICBC was one of the last large understand why the minister would take it that way or organizations of this nature to actually begin to look at get advice that way. No, what I am suggesting is that that audit process. ICBC has changed its policy on how it uses lawyers it hires to do work and that because of the changes ICBC K. Corrigan: Is it also true that if there is a bill of is making in how it's dealing with lawyers it hires, the more than $5,000 it must now be signed off by a director claims rate is going up. and that this means there are delays in lawyers getting paid? Hon. S. Bond: Maybe it's the lateness of the hour and the length of time we've been together. First I answered Hon. S. Bond: In fact, there is a process where there is a question that she didn't ask, and now I have to come a required sign-off. We're not quite certain at this point back and ask the member opposite if there are specifics in time exactly what that threshold is, but we will get that related to her concerns, because I am assured by ICBC answer as quickly as we can. But yes, there are checks that they have not made a significant shift in the way and balances in place. So there is a sign-off required. they utilize legal services. So I'm happy to provide an an- On the other hand, neither Jon nor Anwar is aware of swer once we have more specifics around the question. delays in paying legal fees. But we'd be more than happy [1715] if the member opposite wanted to share information with us or give us details. I know that Jon would cer- K. Corrigan: Well, for one thing, is it true that the tainly follow up. It's not the intent to delay the payment lawyers that do work for ICBC have been told that the to lawyers, and they're not aware of that circumstance. rates will not be raised for three years, that they will be I will give the member opposite the threshold as soon frozen for three years? That's a start. as I have it. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6877

K. Corrigan: I feel it's very odd that I'm sitting here told, "Take it or leave it…." I'm sorry. I'm quoting some- defending lawyers, but I guess I could say some of my body else there, and I'm not going to say who that is. best friends are some, and I am a lawyer by training. With the new billing system, there is a significant refusal The serious side of this is that there has been a signifi- for exactly the same work for which they have been paid cant increase in bodily injury claims. My concern is that for decades, and there is a time delay because of sign- one of the factors is whether or not we are supporting offs and other refusals and so on. It is having an impact good legal assistance from lawyers and from others. not only on lawyers but on, as I said…. Certainly, I've What I've been told not only by lawyers but also by talked to tow truck drivers who are saying that it's had a tow truck drivers, court suppliers and others in the sys- significant impact. tem is that essentially what is transpiring is that the I've been told anecdotally that there are other suppli- people who supply ICBC are financing ICBC now be- ers, like court reporters, that actually are firing people cause of the delay — 30, 60, 90 days payment — and that or shutting their businesses down — small businesses this is adding up to millions of dollars a year and creat- that support families — because of the changed practi- ing real hardship. ces of ICBC. It's not necessarily the lawyers — although I'm sure So you save, perhaps, some money. It's understand- that significant income is being lost for lawyers;I 've been able that we want to save taxpayers money. We save told that — but also people like court suppliers. I've been some money at the front end, but we spend more on told of a situation of a court reporter in…. Man, I can't the back end. Part of the problem is that it's difficult to remember what community it was. Basically, they're track it, because we have what is seen as an unexplained shutting their business down because of the way the bill- increase in the claims. Then at the same time, ICBC can ing is done now and the delays that are happening. It is say, "Why, we've saved money on legal services," when, having a significant impact on a variety of people. in fact, the efficiency of the system may have actually The tow truck drivers. I've talked to them recently, declined, because it is a false savings if injury claims and and they've said the same thing. The way they're getting other claims do go up significantly. paid is that there are delays — 30, 60, 90. Their opinion I wanted to flag that for the minister. I hope the min- is that it's intentional as a way simply of financingICBC ister will look very closely at it, because it certainly is a on the backs of the suppliers who service ICBC. concern, a very significant concern, that has come to [1725] me from a variety of sources, with the same comments being made by not only lawyers, not only tow truck Hon. S. Bond: In fact, there is significant concern be- drivers, but anecdotally by other people — as well as ing expressed on this side about any delays that would somebody who was a senior manager at ICBC and re- take 30, 60 or 90 days. Practices haven't changed. There is a corporate view that paying the people who provide cently retired. service to the organization is essential. On the other [1730] hand, there do need to be checks and balances in place. So the only circumstance, I'm informed, that may de- Hon. S. Bond: This is certainly the venue to raise lay the payment of service is if an invoice hasn't been those types of issues. I will have a further discussion sent in or if there has been an error. Generally, suppliers with ICBC. Having said that, I am assured that it is a pri- are paid every two weeks, which is better than the indus- ority that service providers are paid appropriately and try standard. In fact, for many of the large suppliers, like swiftly. Certainly, we recognize the importance of those body shops, etc., there would be electronic deposits. services provided to ICBC. If there are specific circumstances, we'd be more than happy to have a look at those. But it certainly doesn't ap- [D. Horne in the chair.] pear, at least from the advice I've been given, that there's a systemic problem with paying people who supply ser- I appreciate hearing those concerns from the mem- vices to ICBC. ber opposite, and I can assure her that we will have a further discussion to be very clear that practices do not K. Corrigan: Well, I do hope the minister will look disadvantage payment to service providers. into it, because I have received that information from several sources, to the extent that…. Certainly, what I've K. Corrigan: There were recent announcements heard from lawyers I know well is that the feeling is that in the papers, television stories and so on about some many, many longtime and very, very experienced law- changes that are happening at ICBC and that, depending yers who could keep the claims down for ICBC have left on what you believe or don't believe, there would be 350 or are going to be leaving work for ICBC because it is to 1,000 ICBC adjusters — primarily adjusters but also simply not worth their while anymore. administrative people; assistants, I assume, attached to When you combine what their understanding is — those adjusters — who are going to be laid off over the that rates are not going to be raised; that they've been next three years. 6878 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

Now, I talked to people representing some of those won't be impacts in the rest of British Columbia, but the people, and they felt that that was perhaps a little ex- employees that currently work in some of that leased aggerated — some of the newspaper reporting. So I'm space would be moved over to a facility where there is not suggesting that it is going to be a thousand people, currently space. So there may be some amalgamation of but I'm wondering if the minister could explain to me space, focusing on reducing costs through getting rid of what the changes are that are coming. I understand it is the leases. related to.... I think it's the Guidewire computer system change, which will hopefully make ICBC more efficient K. Corrigan: I just want to be clear, because we were in its claims adjustments. talking about timing of questions here. So none of those leased centres are claim centres, any of them. Is that Hon. S. Bond: Let me reassure the member opposite correct? that there will not be a thousand people that are im- pacted by transformation, and in fact, there will not be Hon. S. Bond: We're just trying to differentiate here. layoffs. So those are clearly the key principles around There may be some claims staff moved from a leased which the transformation process will take place. space to the space owned by ICBC to reduce the costs. In essence, it really is an attempt by ICBC to look at There is not job loss or anything related to that. But serving their customers more efficiently and effectively. there may be some amalgamation of space, and there There are currently very outdated technology systems in may be some claims people involved who would go to place. They're currently 20 to 30 years old. Now, all of the owned space. us who use technology can only begin to imagine how a large organization like ICBC would function with 20- to K. Corrigan: Okay, I just wanted to be clear. So there 30-year-old equipment. will be…. If there are claims people, it's not a claim cen- This a multi-year, multiproject effort to modernize tre, because the minister said that there weren't going to ICBC's technology and to better serve the clients — the be any claim centres closing. I just want to be clear on people of British Columbia. what is and isn't happening. The number of positions that will transition out would be 350. Of that 350, 70 will be managers and, in Hon. S. Bond: All right. We're getting down to the fact, there will not be layoff provisions. It is about a nat- nitty-gritty here. We're trying to describe the difference ural progression, and the vast majority of those — all of between a claim centre and claims people. them — would be dealt with by attrition. I'm assured that if you drive your vehicle into the cen- tre, that is a claim centre. Those are not closing. Those K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if the minister could tell are not being adjusted. Having said that, there may be me how much the new technology, new computer sys- tem, is going to cost. office staff — office people, office adjustors, claims- ad [1735] justors — that are in leased space that would be moved to the space that is owned by ICBC so that the leases Hon. S. Bond: The transformation program hasn't could be let go. I think that's a better definition. separated out the technology part in terms of costs. The overall transformation program will be about $400 mil- K. Corrigan: Thank you, Minister, for that. I appreci- lion. As the member opposite can imagine, there's a ate that. lot to do with processes and managing to treat people With this Transformation 2014, is there an ex- fairly. pectation that the corporation is moving away from The key note is that there will be no layoffs, this will face-to-face service and more towards managing things not impact rates, and there will be no closures of claim by telephone? centres. Those are important principles, because I cer- [1740] tainly had a reaction conveyed to me as well. I have been reassured that the plan is capped at 350 people and that Hon. S. Bond: The overarching principle in terms of they will be dealt with fairly and through attrition. There the transformation is to better serve the client. There are will be no layoffs. Again, what's incredibly important is many customers, I'm told, who would rather not spend those claim centres, and I have been reassured that there a lot of their personal time in person in a claim cen- will not be closures around the province. tre if they have a relatively simple claim that could be dealt with on the telephone. So yes, there will very likely K. Corrigan: Does that include claim centres or cen- be less in-person time in a claim centre because simple tres that are presently leased? claims would be dealt with by telephone. So that saves personal time, but it also means the Hon. S. Bond: There may be some consolidation of vehicle gets back to the individual more quickly, because leased space, in the Lower Mainland in particular. There they can be directed to a particular body shop, they deal Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6879 with that, and they do not need to physically visit the done, that that type of gain over a two-year period is claim centre. considered significant by the people who conduct the survey and that there is more work to be done. K. Corrigan: The way the minister characterized this is that some people prefer to do their claims that way. Is K. Corrigan: I would have loved to have asked a the minister saying that this will be entirely at the op- whole bunch more questions about that, but because I tion of individuals, that the existing claim centres will have some colleagues that want to ask some questions, I stay there and people will have the option of going to will ask one final question. I want to ask about this ex- the claim centres and having their vehicle dealt with that press repair, and it'll lead nicely into what my colleague way? is going to ask about. With the express repair or the valet service, whatever Hon. S. Bond: Yes, I'm told there are three options, you call it, it has been expressed to me that there is a real which would be optional. I think about my own family. grave danger of somebody who has an autobody shop If it were my children, I know which one of these three or a repair shop…. They are essentially the fox guard- they'd choose. ing the henhouse. They are in the position that they are You can call, you can click — so you can actually go making an estimate and then submitting it and that the on line — or you could go in person. I'm wagering that.... oversight is not there. There's a real concern about the I'm not wagering; I'm a Solicitor General. I am thinking audit process. that perhaps there is a real appetite for many customers I could have asked ten or 15 questions on that, but I to actually look at using computer technology. So three do want to flag it. I know that some people who have options: call, click or in person. been very senior at ICBC have expressed that concern to me. K. Corrigan: Thank you, Minister. Is there an inten- tion for ICBC to move increasingly to what's been called Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, ICBC is making every effort the valet service or express repair? to be aware of those concerns. They will be implementing an audit system. There is also the evolution, or a change, Hon. S. Bond: The goal of using a system like the tele- in the role of estimators currently, and in fact those esti- phone would be exactly that. You'd call in, get approval mators will take on more of an audit role and fulfil some for your claim, and then you'd be able to go directly to of the oversight that's necessary. So I think that there is a body shop of your choice. If that's described as ex- an awareness that this needs to be monitored. There will press service, yes, that is part of the intention of the also be the opportunity to do drop-in visits. They occur transformation. now, but there will be an expanded role in terms of the oversight of body shops as well. K. Corrigan: I'm going to ask some more questions I think that ICBC has clearly thought through the about that, and then I'm going to pass it off to my col- kinds of concerns that the member opposite has sug- league here. But there's one other area, since he wants to gested and are putting appropriate measures in place. ask about the same area, and some questions related. Certainly, it will be one of the areas that they continue I just want to ask about the satisfaction surveys, the to monitor as transformation takes place. employee surveys. I can't remember what they're called. But I wanted to find out about the state of morale, as re- H. Bains: I have some questions. Because of the time flected in the employee surveys. How is ICBC doing in constraints, I will try to take shortcuts rather than go the area of staff morale? through the explanation on some of the issues that I [1745] have on hand. [1750] Hon. S. Bond: ICBC does do a very extensive exter- I want to talk about what they call multiple claims, or nal survey, so there is an external survey that's done. you call them two-stage setup time, for painting. If there About 85 percent of the employees at ICBC actually is a claim on one part of the vehicle and then there's an- participate in that survey, and over a two-year period other one before this one is repaired and then there's the results have moved from 44 percent in terms of em- another one, then two of them — as they call them, two- ployee satisfaction to 55 percent. It's clear that there has stage claims or multiple claims…. been progress made, but there is more work to be done. My understanding is that if the first claim is dealt There is an increasing effort to engage and involve with through your ADXE system, it will be a stand- employees, particularly in the design and transforma- alone claim, although there's a second claim going to tion process. There is a formal recognition program that same body shop. The second claim will also be a beginning, a formal wellness program that's been initi- stand-alone claim. Each one of them will be including a ated. I think that there's a recognition that work is being payment for what they call the set-up time for the paint 6880 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

and for the painting and the tinting to make it even for They came back with 11,000 between September 2009 both sides of the damage. In that sense, you're double- and October 2010, in a one-year period. So they have es- paying for part of the claim. tablished 11,000 claims, at a cost of over a million dollars. My question is: how many of those claims do exist out Per year, we are paying twice for the same damage, the there, as we speak today? Per year how many of those same claim, to the same body shop. It has been identi- claims are there, and what is the average cost of what fied to the management, all the way up to theCEO . That you could call a double payment? has also been identified through these e-mails going back and forth between ClearView and certain employ- Hon. S. Bond: We don't have the specific number. I ees of the organization. am assured that the number of those circumstances I am told that it goes back to before 2009 when these where they are treated as two separate claims…. That issues were brought up. Certain employees raised those does happen, but it is in a very small number of cases. issues, and the management acknowledged that those We will work to get the numbers back to the member things are there. They're blaming the computer system opposite. that they had, ADXE, and that there is no way that we could pick out the double payment. H. Bains: As the minister probably knows, there is They have suggested it can easily be done by either the an organization called ClearView Connects. Because I ICBC estimators or the shop estimators. They can easily am short of time, I will explain. This is the system that identify the double payment and take that out. But the is used by internal employees, if they find some fraud or management has been instructing those estimators not some practices that are unethical happening, where they to deduct the double payment. could report to the management through ClearView So the minister needs to acknowledge that that prac- without being identified. tice exists today and that there's a double payment, as it I have a few e-mails that went through ClearView, and is identified through some of these e-mails, over a mil- they have identified initially about 4,000 such claims at lion dollars per year. a cost of about $240,000 per year. Since that time, when This is money that comes out of ICBC's clients, the certain employees challenged those numbers, they came money that should go towards reducing their rates. It back. The higher management actually did the investiga- is not happening. Management is aware of it for the last tion and came back. In fact, there are 11,000 claims, and two years at least. So how many millions have already the average cost of the double payment is about $100, gone out to pay twice for the same claims? Perhaps the but it is much higher in many claims. That's the low end. minister could provide us with those numbers. The $100 is considered to be at the low end of the esti- mate, but the estimate could be four times higher. Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, the commitment is that Even if you look at 11,000 claims of that nature where there is work being done to try to find a solution to the there is a double payment, you're talking about over $1 issue. There is a bit of a challenge in that the numbers million per year that you are paying twice to do the same are different. The number that I've been given in terms work to that same body shop. Can the minister agree of the issue is about $200,000 a year. That's not insignifi- that that's what takes place today? cant either. But in fact, the fix might be more expensive than that. Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, there is agreement that that So the management that's here today has been clear could and does happen in terms of two separate claims. that they are aware of the circumstance. They are work- We're not able, at this moment, to verify the number of ing to find a solution, and they will go back and make claims. I have a commitment that there will be follow-up sure that there is some additional work done on this to determine the number of claims and how frequently issue. that happens. The point has been made by the member opposite. Certainly, Jon and Anwar will go back and get H. Bains: I appreciate the minister's commitment on the data. this. But Minister, the employees have been advised by the management that there's no intention of fixing this H. Bains: I appreciate the minister's commitment to problem. These are the e-mails between ClearView and get that data back. the employees. [1755] Now your staff is saying that they are in the process I'm reading those numbers from the management of fixing it, but in fact in the real world andICBC circles, folks talking to their employees and doing their per- they are told that they cannot fix it because that's the sonal investigation and coming up with these numbers. system — the system ADXE. They are basically told this They are saying that it is very, very difficult, because they is the system that is all over North America; it's an ac- have to download each individual claim in order to find ceptable system. It is the system that has been negotiated where the double payment has been made. between the repair shops and ICBC, so it can't be fixed. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6881

Management knew all along that there's overpayment. Hon. S. Bond: I don't think there's been any attempt It's double payment to do the same work, and nothing this afternoon to indicate that they don't exist today. In has been done. fact, they do. The challenge is trying to fix it. The fact of I would like the minister to explain to this House: the matter is that information I've been provided with how is this going to be fixed when the employees are says that the cost is about $200,000 — not an insignifi- saying it's an easy fix? They're saying that if you allow in- cant amount — but that the fix is far more expensive dividual estimators to take the double payment, it can be than that. done either at the shop level or at the ICBC level. Why It is clear that the CEO and the controller will go back, is that not allowed? will have a discussion about this issue and try to verify [1800] the numbers in terms of the issue that's been brought to their attention this afternoon. Hon. S. Bond: I'm sitting beside the president and CEO of ICBC, who tells me that he does not have that N. Simons: I have a few questions, with the five min- information in front of him. He has made a commit- utes I have, regarding the DriveABLE program recently ment to me that there have been efforts made to look at implemented. I have a few questions; maybe I need to how to fix the issue. sort of package them all together. We'd be happy to take the information that the mem- In my constituency seniors are being required to drive ber opposite has. Certainly I've been assured, also, that a considerable distance and take a ferry into the city where they would never choose to drive. They are re- senior management very likely has that information. quired to undertake a computer test, as well as, in some That's what the member opposite is saying. cases, a driving test two weeks later. So in my constitu- I'd like to point out that it has also been mentioned ency we've had people who've had to drive from Powell that this is not an easy fix. The e-mails might indicate River, take the ferry to the Island and then drive down to that it is; I'm being told that it's not quite that simple. Nanaimo on a 110-kilometre-an-hour freeway. What we've agreed to do is to ask Jon to go back to ICBC On the lower Sunshine Coast I've had residents hav- and look at what, if anything, can be done. ing to go from Pender Harbour to the ferry early in the I am told that the fix is more expensive than the prob- morning — a very long day for a couple of residents lem, so there are challenges with that as well. But I'm in my community who are over 85. They're very lovely also informed that the transformation process, which people whose independence is hugely impacted by their will move the company ahead and look at ways to be ability to drive. able to fix these kinds of things, will also be helpful. [1805] So there is not an easy fix in this room this afternoon, Has the ministry ever contemplated graduated deli- but certainly, there is a commitment to go back. The censing for seniors, as opposed to the pass or fail? CEO has made that commitment, and he will go back and have a look. Hon. S. Bond: Thank you to the member opposite. I am certainly aware of one of the cases — in terms of Ms. H. Bains: I just want to read to the minister one of the Robertson, I think, who went from Sechelt and had that e-mails. This comes from ClearView. This ClearView e- very circumstance. mail is advising certain employees who were inquiring I, too, shared concerns about DriveABLE, so I ap- about this. It is November 2010. preciate hearing the member's concern. I know he also "It is my responsibility to update the chair of the audit commit- faces the issue of being rural and remote — those kinds tee, which is part of the board of directors, as well as the CEO, on of things. all reports that come through ClearView. I explain to the audit committee and to the CEO what the report is about, the work I have not contemplated graduated delicensing, but I done to figure out if the concern raised in their report is true or do think — and I said earlier in the estimates — that not and any decisions or corrective action that need to be taken. I we do need to do a better job of the transition from be- have done all those things." ing able to drive and not being able to drive. I've shared So this is ClearView advising employees that "I have ad- numerous times with my colleagues very personal and vised the audit committee and the CEO," which is part painful circumstances from my own dad. I know what of that reporting process. that was like, and it was extremely traumatic. It was very That has happened, so I think the CEO understands difficult. that that system is there. All I need to hear from the min- I think we have some work to do with DriveABLE. I ister is: do those double payments for the same work, as value the program, only because I know a lot more about I have explained before, for the multi-claims or the...? it now than I did when I was an MLA complaining about Do they exist today? And I understand that the minister how it worked for rural B.C. will be giving us the numbers later on, but do they exist We need to look at an evolving, mobile way to do today? this, so people don't have to leave home. I think there 6882 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 10, 2011

are additional costs and anxiety. I also believe that we N. Simons: I think that the issues have to do with the need to look at better information for families and for fairness of the test and the cost associated. I'm not sure individuals, because it is a medical issue; it is a cogni- if one still has to pay the $300 fee, or once referred, per- tive issue. haps that fee is waived. Maybe that could be clarified. I think we do need to do a better job. I hadn't really I'm also wondering if the places where people can get thought about it in those terms, but I think we have to driving tests done now would be an infrastructure that's start much earlier than 80 to prepare people for that. It's already established for the provision of these tests for an interesting concept, and it aligns somewhat with my seniors. Again, when I think about restricted licences own views that we need to look at this differently. and seniors who would voluntarily drive only during We will arrange a briefing for the opposition caucus certain hours of the day, or do already.... I think there where we could walk through those issues related to are a lot of areas where the minister indicates that there DriveABLE. is room for discussion, at least, and I appreciate that. [1810] N. Simons: I really appreciate that. I think that a thoughtful approach is obviously what we're going to Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, in terms of the cost, the test have to deal with, and we're going to be dealing with it is provided at no charge the first time.I t is based, usually, more and more. on the referral of a doctor. So there is definitely a med- The fellowI was thinking about, whose name is Ron.... He used to drive a tank, and then he drove fire trucks, ical imperative here. and then he drove buses. He had issues with some of the When the member opposite gets to see the actual ter- testing and felt that his training in driving forced him to minal and some of the clips related to how this translates rely on mirrors, because that's how he drove. He thought to safe driving, it is quite troubling. So from a public that some of the subjectivity in the test caused him to safety perspective, it's also a concern. not be successful. Costs are taken care of for the actual process the first I do think we're going to see a lot of issues around in- time, when it's referred by a physician. But if you're liv- dependence, and I'm kind of worried about that and the ing in a rural part of British Columbia and have to travel cost associated with my constituents hiring a driver be- to another centre, there could well be additional costs. I cause they won't drive in the city. am aware of that and concerned about that. I think most seniors actually self-regulate their driv- In terms of using existing facilities, the issue is the ing. A lot of them say: "I don't drive at night" or "I won't training of staff. When the member sees it, there will be drive if it's raining." Well, a lot of us won't drive if it's a recognition that there needs to be a very special guide bad weather. by the side who is actually trained to assist through that I'm hoping that briefing will be helpful, and maybe process. — if I could ask at this point, if it's possible — that the But I do think we can look at mobile. You could look minister would be okay with me speaking with the at every six weeks — it being in certain communities — superintendent to look at all options and make sure to try to alleviate some of that travel. I think we're more that my constituents know that their concerns are be- than willing to have that discussion and would welcome, ing heard. as I did to other members of the opposition caucus.... The input, advice would be really helpful. Hon. S. Bond: Absolutely, we would encourage you. What we'll do is that when we set up the DriveABLE N. Simons: Obviously, we can go into details about briefing, we'll actually have the team bring in the- ter each case. I'm not sure if that's necessarily.... Now, there minal that's used, because I know there've been concerns are some concerns from people who, it seems to me in expressed about a computer test. It is a touch-screen test, the situation in my case right now, have trouble with but it's still an anxious time. languages. English as a second language, I think, has Any advice or thoughts that the member opposite would have would be welcomed by the Office of the been a challenge for some on operating this test, as well Superintendent of Motor Vehicles and by me, because as the cost. So I look forward to being able to try and I am looking at ways to try to make this a more respon- determine whether or not there are other opportunities sive, more sensitive process, a better education process to promote independence in seniors, at the same time for families, for seniors centres. I don't know how we do ensuring our roads are safe. it, but I look forward to that input. Just a final question — the graduated delicensing. I I've asked Steve Martin, who is the head of the Office know that ICBC was presented with a paper indicating of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles.... He will be that the delicensing reduced the number of accidents by in contact with the opposition caucus to set up the 87 percent. I'm wondering if there are any scientifically hands-on briefing. I'd welcome those comments at that valid studies indicating that the DriveABLE program time. has had a similar reduction in the number of accidents. Tuesday, May 10, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6883

Hon. S. Bond: I don't have statistics in terms of the Thank you for that. I do think that constituents are direct correlation with DriveABLE, but I know that going to be comforted by the fact that the issue is being there is some excellent research material on the develop- reviewed, and we might be able to find some solutions ment of DriveABLE. Actually, when I sat down and read that will help mitigate some of the negative impacts of it, I had a much better sense of the science behind the these tests. program that's been developed. But really for me, it was Noting the time.... I have no idea what I'll do when I brought home when I actually sat down with the pre- note the time, except maybe I'll ask the minister to note senter at the terminal — all of those kinds of things. the time as well. Some great scientific work, though, has been done to develop the program. Again, when we do the oppos- Hon. S. Bond: I'd be happy to do that. I also wanted ition briefing or workshop — whatever we want to call to make the offer that if the gentleman has been- con it — I could easily provide those papers that would give cerned, we would be happy to have someone contact a sense of the background. I know a number of my col- him directly and hear some of those concerns. We'd be leagues have actually attended it, and I think it was very happy to do that. helpful to them. So I'd be more than happy to provide Noting the time, I move that the committee rise, re- that to the opposition as well. port progress and ask leave to sit again. I know the member opposite joins me in noting that time and that The Chair:Member, and noting the time. movement.

N. Simons: Am I noting the time? I do note the time. Motion approved. It's very late in the day, and the minister has had a very long day, and so have you, Mr. Chair. The committee rose at 6:14 p.m.

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