Fourth Session, 39th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Th ursday, May 3, 2012 Morning Sitting Volume 36, Number 6

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Fourth Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation ...... Hon. Minister of State for Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General...... Hon. Minister of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Social Development ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Deputy Speaker ...... Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Douglas Horne Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission ...... Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena ...... Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff , Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie –Deer Lake ...... Bennett, Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Bloy, Harry (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Richard T. Lee Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Brar, Jagrup (NDP) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Bob Simpson Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack ...... Cantelon, Ron (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Chilliwack-Hope ...... Vacant Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... –West End Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Chong, Hon. Ida (BC Liberal) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Hon. Don McRae Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Th orne Coell, Murray (BC Liberal) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West ...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP) ...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca ...... Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway –North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington –Lake Country ...... Falcon, Hon. Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East ...... Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP) ...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo ...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Colin (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hawes, Randy (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes ...... Hayer, Dave S. (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston ...... Heed, Kash (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster ...... Dawn Black Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast...... Gary Coons Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca North Island ...... Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain –Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Howard, Rob (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Hon. Ida Chong James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Parksville-Qualicum ...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Krog, Leonard (NDP) ...... Nanaimo ...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krueger, Kevin (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Vacant Lali, Harry (NDP) ...... Fraser-Nicola Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Richmond Centre ...... Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond East ...... Linda Reid MacDiarmid, Hon. Dr. Margaret (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond-Steveston ...... Hon. John Yap Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich North and the Islands ...... McIntyre, Joan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Lana Popham McNeil, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Shuswap ...... Hon. George Abbott McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Skeena ...... Robin Austin Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Jagrup Brar Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Reid, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Surrey-Panorama ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Tynehead ...... Dave S. Hayer Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Rustad, John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Sather, Michael (NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fairview ...... Hon. Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver–False Creek ...... Hon. Mary McNeil Simpson, Bob (Ind.) ...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Slater, John (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Kensington ...... Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. Christy Clark Th orne, Diane (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vernon-Monashee ...... van Dongen, John (Ind.)...... Abbotsford South Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yap, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Vacant ...... Chilliwack-Hope West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Joan McIntyre Vacant ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Westside-Kelowna ......

Party Standings: BC Liberal 46; New Democratic 34; Independent 3; Vacant 2

CONTENTS

Th ursday, May 3, 2012 Morning Sitting

Page

Introductions by Members ...... 11467

Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 11467 Bill 43 — FNCIDA Implementation Act Hon. M. Polak

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 11467 Bill 39 — Emergency Intervention Disclosure Act (continued) S. Chandra Herbert M. Mungall B. Routley J. Brar R. Fleming M. Farnworth B. Ralston D. Black Hon. M. MacDiarmid Bill 14 — Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2011 Hon. M. MacDiarmid R. Chouhan Hon. M. MacDiarmid

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 11481 Estimates: Ministry of Education Hon. G. Abbott R. Austin

11467

THURSDAY, MAY 3, 2012 Th e FNCIDA Implementation Act will help close regu- latory gaps and enable clear application of law to specify Th e House met at 10:02 a.m. development projects on reserves. Th e act will enable the province to sign agreements with Canada and two First [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Nations for two proposed projects — a proposed liquefi ed natural gas facility on a Haisla Nation reserve near Kitimat Prayers. and a proposed commercial-residential development on the Squamish Nation's reserve lands in the Lower Mainland. Introductions by Members For the Squamish project, FNCIDA-related agree- ments will ensure that the First Nation makes contribu- Hon. M. Polak: I am pleased to introduce in the House tions to the cost of transportation, school and other local today some very special guests who are here to witness services. Today's provincial legislation supports the re- the introduction of a bill that I will have the honour of quests of the Squamish Nation and the Haisla Nation to introducing momentarily. develop their reserves in a way that is consistent with Joining us today from Squamish First Nation is Chief provincial standards and increases investor certainty. Ian Campbell, along with Harold Calla, who is Squamish I am honoured to be bringing this legislation to the Nation's senior negotiator and surveyor of taxes. Joining chamber, and I move that the bill be placed on the or- us from the district of West Vancouver is Coun. Mary-Ann ders of day for second reading at the next sitting of the Booth, who also serves on the Metro Vancouver aborig- House aft er today. inal relations committee. Also in the gallery is Godfrey Bill 43, FNCIDA Implementation Act, introduced, Archbold, president and CEO of the Land Title and read a fi rst time and ordered to be placed on orders of Survey Authority. Would the House please make them the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House very welcome. aft er today.

Introduction and Orders of the Day First Reading of Bills Hon. J. Yap: In this House I call continued second BILL 43 — FNCIDA reading of Bill 39, intituled Emergency Intervention IMPLEMENTATION ACT Disclosure Act, and in the little House, the continued es- timates for the Ministry of Education. Hon. M. Polak presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled FNCIDA Second Reading of Bills Implementation Act. BILL 39 — EMERGENCY INTERVENTION Hon. M. Polak: I move that the bill be introduced and DISCLOSURE ACT read a fi rst time now. (continued)

Motion approved. S. Chandra Herbert: I'm going to follow up my com- ments last night on Bill 39, the Emergency Intervention Hon. M. Polak: Mr. Speaker, I am honoured today Disclosure Act. Last night I was referring to some cur- to introduce Bill 43, the First Nations Commercial and rent concerns the provincial health offi cer had with the Industrial Development Act Implementation Act. legislation. I think it's important that I read them into the Th e act will allow provincial laws and regulations to apply record just so we have that perspective on this legislation. to commercial and industrial projects on federal Indian re- serve land for the very fi rst time. Th is legislation supports [D. Black in the chair.] the federal government's First Nations Commercial and Industrial Development Act, otherwise known as FNCIDA, He writes — and he has written to all MLAs: by enabling agreements with First Nations that will allow "As noted previously, there are only three infectious diseases of applicable provincial statutes and regulations, such as en- concern — hepatitis B and C and HIV — to which an individual might be exposed and for which notifi cation protocols through vironmental laws, to apply to commercial and industrial public health might not be applicable, in that the disease status of the projects developed on certain Indian reserves. source person might not be known in time to initiate prophylaxis. [1005] "All fi rst responders should have received hepatitis B vaccine as Currently any First Nation can proceed with project a protective measure, and any blood exposure should be followed by administration of immunoglobulin and vaccine if indicated, developments on reserve, without being subject to prov- which virtually guarantees 100 percent protection from recent incial land related law and regulations that apply to off - and future exposures. reserve developments. "Signifi cant HIV exposures carry a 1-in-300 risk of infection 11468 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

without appropriate intervention. Post-exposure prophylaxis is understanding with the workplace, for the understand- highly eff ective — and, with newer medications, well tolerated ing with our society. I'm hoping she will respond about — should be started within two hours and is recommended to continue for 28 days. Waiting for test results from a source person how this is going to take place. could result in a preventable HIV infection occurring, and even a I have spoken with a number of our fi rst responders negative test result of a high-risk source does not guarantee that and shared my concerns, but I also hear their concerns the source is not infected due to the possibility of false negative and why they want to have another tool, another option tests. "Signifi cant hepatitis C exposures carry a 1-in-30 to 1-in-50 to try to help their families and help their understand- risk of infection. At present there is no available vaccine nor any ing of this issue. recommended prophylaxis. Post-exposure management recom- I think we've come a long way in terms of phobias mends follow-up to ascertain whether infection has occurred and about AIDS, phobias about HIV, phobias around com- to institute antiviral therapy if so confi rmed. Early appropriate treatment can eliminate infection in greater than 85 percent of municable diseases. But there's still a long way to go. I'm cases at this point in time. concerned that unless we do the appropriate education, "Clearly, no exposed individual should be waiting to initiate ap- people will continue to have these phobias. Certainly, propriate post-exposure prophylaxis where that is available and the Health Ministry, I think, could do a better job of ex- indicated — i.e., for HIV and HBV exposures. Waiting to know plaining what exposure is, what the risks are and what the infectious status of the blood to which one is exposed before initiating prophylaxis is contraindicated for HIV and HBV, and it the testing periods can be. would signifi cantly increase risk." I look forward to hearing from the minister what she I read that into the record just because I believe my has to say on this and if she could share what conversa- concerns are similar to the provincial health offi cer's con- tions or what assurances she can provide the provincial cerns — that people could be given a false sense of se- health offi cer, what assurances she can provide Dr. Julio curity, a false sense of peace of mind with this legislation Montaner, who has also raised concerns about this, about unless the appropriate education is done. As I mentioned why this is the best path to do this, why this is the only yesterday, some have indicated on the Internet — not the path to do this. most reliable source — that they believe that with this I go back to our fi rst responders who do so much for legislation, they will no longer have to do the prophylaxis. us, who risk their lives, whose families have to deal with [1010] them putting themselves in harm's way day in, day out. Now, why would people not want to do the prophyl- I get it. I get why they want this legislation. Certainly, I axis? Well, it's pretty hard on the system. It's pretty hard understand what they hope this legislation could allow on the body. People will make personal health choices, them to do. whether or not they should do this. My concern is that But it's not 100 percent, and that is, I think, the most they may believe they shouldn't have to do this, because important thing we should take from this debate. It's not they could do a test on somebody, and it may come back 100 percent peace of mind. No matter what may come out negative, although it may be testing falsely. in press releases, what people may say in the heat of the I'll be interested to see how this legislation rolls out moment in debate, this is not a perfect bill — far from it. over the next while. I'll certainly be monitoring it closely Ideally, people would know their status and would tell to see when instances of its use occur. I believe we should their status, and we would never need a piece of legisla- test to see if it's actually doing the job that the govern- tion like this. However, in a case of somebody in a coma, ment says it's doing. somebody unable to tell, I can understand how this legis- Now, I needed to place myself in the shoes of the fi rst lation would provide that peace of mind of a sort. Again, responders to understand fully why they would want I say "of a sort," because we don't know. You won't know this legislation, given the concerns which come from until you have gone through the prophylaxis, until you the provincial health offi cer. Th inking about their fam- have gone through the tests. ilies, thinking about their own health, I can understand [1015] why they would want to know. It's scary, not knowing if You've got to do the tests, and you've got to take care you have been exposed to a communicable disease aft er of your family and act like you may have been infected exposure to blood or bodily fl uids. and act like you may have been exposed because, with- While we know scientifi cally that a small exposure may out that, the risk could be passed on to family members, not lead to instant disease and may in fact have a small could be passed on to co-workers — all because people percentage of risk, that risk is still there. I can understand have been given a peace of mind which is not absolute. why families and our fi rst responders would have this an- I look forward to continuing to work with the fi rst guish, why they would want to know. But we approach responders, continuing to do what I can to make their this with great risk if we believe this legislation will give jobs easier, continuing to work with them to ensure their people that full 100 percent knowledge, because we don't families do have a greater peace of mind. Th ey deserve it. have that ability in science to do that. I was speaking with the minister about this earlier and M. Mungall: I rise in support of this bill, and I'm quite about the need for a great education campaign, for the happy to support it. I have regular conversations with the Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11469

fi refi ghters in my community — the city of Nelson, a city bodily fl uids. Th ey are our front-line responders, and of 10,000. We went up by 1,000 residents between the last anything can happen in any given moment. It's com- two censuses, or censi. So 10,000 residents live in Nelson, pletely unpredictable. and every single one of us is protected by the incredible [1020] work that is done by the Nelson fi re department. When they are exposed, they face the risk of being ex- I have the great pleasure of meeting with them quite posed to pathogens that are blood-borne, and they have regularly in the historic fi re department that's located on to contend with what that will mean. Here in this situa- the corner of Latimer and Stanley. Sorry, it's Latimer and tion particularly, we're dealing with some very debilitat- Ward streets. I should know the name of that street. I live ing illnesses, and for some, there is no cure — hepatitis on the corner of Ward Street, just a few blocks up the hill B, hepatitis C and HIV/AIDS. from our beautiful, historic fi re hall. Th ere's a wonder- HIV/AIDS is the illness that I am most familiar with in ful museum there, so I fully encourage anybody visiting my work in Africa. I lived and worked in Zambia, where Nelson to take the time to tour that museum and get to there is a 30 percent prevalence of HIV/AIDS. I spent my know our incredible fi refi ghters, who do such a tremen- days working at the YWCA, which is located right across dous job for the city of Nelson. the street from the country's largest morgue and its lar- One good example of the job that they do for our gest hospital. Th ere's a sign right in front of the driveway city…. I remember a couple of summers ago. I live up to the morgue there, saying "Cheap coffi ns." Th ere were the hill. Smoke rises up, and the city was full of smoke. some people who sold fl owers. Straight downhill, about ten blocks from my house down Every day I went to work, I would pass them in the the mountain to our beautiful Baker Street, the Redfi sh morning, and all their buckets would be full of fl owers. Grill went up in fl ames. Anybody who's been to Nelson Every day I went home aft er work, all the buckets would and knows Baker Street knows that each building is right be empty. I would watch funerals go constantly all day next to each other. Th e Redfi sh Grill goes up in fl ames. long out of that morgue — trucks with the backs loaded Our firefighters fought that fire well into the early with people all day long. hours of the morning. I believe they fought that fi re for Th en one day I got even a stronger realization for how a full seven hours, and I apologize if it was actually nine HIV/AIDS was impacting Zambia. Th at was when one hours. Th ey fought that fi re, and they were there continu- of my colleagues passed away. Before she passed away, I ously. Because they did that, the building next door on went into the hospital to visit her. It was an awakening the right-hand side and the building on the left -hand side call for me to greatly appreciate what it is to have uni- did not go up in fl ames. Th ey experienced some water versal medicare. On the day of her funeral we went to damage, but they did not burn down. Th at was because the largest cemetery in Lusaka, the capital of Zambia — of the work of the Nelson fi re department. the largest cemetery in Zambia. I had never seen any- We also have a wonderful team of paramedics in thing like that, where as far as I could see, it was all fresh Nelson. I get the opportunity to meet with them. Th eir mounds of dirt. building is located down by the Big Orange Bridge — Here in Canada when we bury people, oft en there is a we like to call it BOB — in Nelson. Th ey do a tremen- couple of feet of space between one plot and another plot. dous job. Th at was not the case there. As we were putting her into Same with the paramedics in Creston. I've had the the ground, there was nowhere else for me to stand but opportunity to meet with them as well. Th eir location on the fresh mound right next to her plot. is right next to CIDO radio, for anybody who wants to Knowing this, having had this very profound and pop in and maybe get an opportunity to know their para- powerful experience and knowing how devastating HIV/ medics better. AIDS can be and here in Canada having known several Not only does Nelson have a professional fi re depart- friends who have also passed away from the disease or ment, but we also have our very own police department who live very long lives, fortunately, now…. But it's a as well. We don't have the RCMP in Nelson. We have our very diffi cult life. own police department. Th e members of the Nelson po- Knowing all of this, I wanted to make sure that those lice department — again, I can't say enough good things fi ne people, our fi rst responders, have every tool in their about the work they do in their community policing and toolbox to be better informed about how their life might the services they provide to the city of Nelson. I have change if they should be exposed to blood while they tremendous respect for all of these workers. I've had the are on the job — have blood-to-blood contact. I wanted wonderful opportunity, as I've said, to get to know all of to make sure they had every tool in their toolbox to be them over the years. better informed. When I sat down with our local fi refi ghters, they spe- I'm very pleased that this has fi nally come forward in cifi cally brought this issue forward to my attention — this House. I know it's going to be another tool, another about the need to do everything they possibly can to option, for our fi rst responders to make choices — very mitigate risk when they've been exposed to blood and diffi cult choices — about what may happen in their lives 11470 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

and where their lives may go aft er that type of exposure. worthwhile in the context of this debate, in understand- Th ere are defi nite concerns, and I've heard some of the ing how important it is to the paramedics, police, RCMP, members speak before me. I've also read the letter from fi refi ghters — anyone who can come into contact with Dr. Kendall, who's the provincial health offi cer, about his bodily fl uids — and for their own personal safety, for concerns. I appreciate that. their families. [1025] First responders have actually said that they've had Th ere needs to be public education — absolutely. Th ere family issues. Th ere is divorce related to these kinds of needs to be suffi cient information to all of our fi rst re- issues, because people are suddenly concerned. Well, sponders so that they don't develop a false sense of secur- what could that mean for the whole family when you are ity as a result of this bill. I don't think they will. I think bringing home something that could be communicable they know exactly what this bill will do. It's another op- and could create basically death and destruction within tion for them to deal with a very serious issue, a very your own family? serious matter, that will no doubt have the potential to So you have to give it to them. Every day they are our impact the rest of their lives. heroes here in British Columbia, stepping up to the plate I am very confi dent that the associations that are in- and going out and saving lives, but also risking their own volved — the fi refi ghters associations, the police asso- health and safety and maybe even that of their families. ciations, the paramedics union, all of them — will do What they are asking for…. I know they have been ask- a tremendous job in educating their members, because ing for this for a long time. Th ey've talked about the need their members have every right to know what they are to have court-ordered testing for communicable diseases. up against. Th is piece of legislation gives them a little bit When you think about it, the very notion that someone more in that endeavour. could expose you to their bodily fl uids and then act in an I think I've praised my local fi re departments and, of irresponsible way, refuse to give the authorization to test course, include the volunteer fi re departments. We have so you and your family can rest assured more quickly…. several in my area. Th ese are amazing people who are [1030] putting themselves on the line on a voluntary basis. In any case, it's clear that this is only a small step. But We also have the RCMP offi cers who work throughout it's a step in the right direction. To give some aid and my region, as well, and throughout British Columbia. We comfort to our fi rst responders is the least we can do here also have many other people who are in fi rst-responder in this Legislature in the province of British Columbia — positions. My understanding is that they might not be the very least we can do for the very important people considered in this bill, so that's a potential for improve- that carry out those acts. ment later on as we work through these issues through- I want to think back to an aft ernoon shift . I had been out our province. working on the booms in the veneer plant. It was a Friday Every single one of these people just does amazing night, and I knew it was graduation night. I thought, work for every citizen in British Columbia. I'm very even going home that night: "Boy, I hope the kids are…." happy that today this Legislature is able to speak to this I knew they were up the beach. You could see their fi res bill and start moving it forward so that we can better sup- from where I was working on the boom. You could see port the tremendous work that they all do. the fi res, and all of these grads were out there. I thought: "Well, I hope somebody is taking care of it. At least, it's B. Routley: I'm happy to rise and support Bill 39, the good that they are staying in tents. Th ey'll be out there Emergency Intervention Disclosure Act. and, hopefully, have an enjoyable time, and nobody is I know a number of paramedics. In fact, I've talked be- going to do anything foolish." fore in this House about my friends who are involved in But on the drive home I rounded the corner on Meade the paramedic fi eld and the great issues that they are con- Creek Road. I'll never forget it as long as I live. Th ere fronted with. We have no idea, unless we actually walk a is this beautiful old-growth timber on that road. It's a mile in their shoes, what it would be like to have a fi rst beautiful, winding road on the way to Marble Bay where response put on your plate, so to speak. I used to live, near Lake Cowichan, right on the water If you can imagine, hon. Speaker, what it would be there. like to suddenly have a call. You've got to rush off , turn As I rounded the corner, as I did many other nights, on the sirens and race to the scene. I know, in Vancouver, there in the middle of the street was a motorcycle with a when my friend Mike was over there, he had many oc- young man's crumpled body lying there and an RCMP casions where people literally spat on him. Th ere were down on his hands and knees giving mouth-to-mouth people that were bleeding; that blood couldn't help but resuscitation. Th at RCMP offi cer was covered in blood. get all over him. Fortunately, at the same time as I arrived, the fi rst-aid I know the impact that had, emotionally, and the con- attendant, who also lived right nearby me, from the mill cerns for medical impact down the road. While it's some- came along, and both of us rushed there. She knew a lot what gory to recall an event that happened, I think it is more what to do than I did. I was not a fi rst-aid person. I Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11471

could see that the RCMP clearly had the matter in hand J. Brar: I also join other members in this House and and was trying. would like to contribute to the debate regarding Bill 39, It was obvious to both of us, the fi rst-aid attendant and Emergency Intervention Disclosure Act. This bill al- I, that it was too late. Th ere were literally fl uids all over the lows fi rst responders — generally police, fi refi ghters and road, including some brain matter. It was clear that it was ambulance paramedics — to apply for court-ordered brain matter on the road. It was really heartbreaking to see testing for communicable disease in situations where that situation and see the tears that came from the fi rst-aid the responder has been exposed to bodily fl uids and the attendant. I was just in total shock at what I was witnessing. source individual refuses to provide a sample voluntarily. I thought about that RCMP offi cer and what he must Th at's what this bill basically stands for. have gone through with that. Now, you'd have less rea- Before I make the comments specifi cally about the bill, son to be concerned, maybe, if you are an RCMP offi - I would like to say, fi rst of all, thanks from the bottom cer in a situation like that, even though you're covered of my heart to all fi rst responders for the extraordinary, in blood. You may think: "Well, there's still a risk, still diffi cult and many times dangerous work they perform a chance." I read here from the doctor that they say it's every day for the people of British Columbia. fewer than 1 percent of health care workers who are ex- You know, I come from the city of Surrey. I have been posed that actually contact a communicable disease or elected by the people of Surrey. As a Member of the a life-threatening disease. Legislative Assembly representing the city of Surrey, I But when you think about it, if you were that person…. want to convey my special thanks to the fi refi ghters, po- It's almost like playing some kind of Russian roulette that lice and ambulance paramedics of the city of Surrey for at the end of the day, you've got to go home and say: "Well, their exemplary services to the people of Surrey. am I going to be okay or not?" Th ose are extremely brave A few months ago I met with the Surrey fi refi ghters in individuals that put their life on the line for the rest of us, my offi ce. It was in that meeting that they brought this for the community. very important issue to my attention. I listened to them Again, I never forgot how brave that policeman was, at very carefully, to the reasoning they presented to me least trying to do something. Even though it seemed all about having this piece of legislation for their safety and was lost, he was trying to do something, and he was get- for the safety of the people of British Columbia. Aft er ting those body fl uids all over him. listening to them and doing my research, I stand in this Th ere are so many times where people in health care House to support this bill. I would like to do that based are even dealing with the garbage, and they get stuck with on the following facts which I found in support of this a needle. Th ere are all kinds of situations like that. piece of legislation. Again, I think this bill is clearly a step in the right direc- Th e fi rst one is that fi ve other provinces in this coun- tion, and it's, as I understand it, unanimously supported try — which include Alberta, , Ontario, by the police, fi refi ghters and ambulance paramedics. So Quebec and Nova Scotia — already have similar legis- it is indeed something that all of us should support. In lation to basically allow fi rst responders the right which dealing with folks' health and safety, the doctor makes we're asking under this piece of legislation. Th ere must the point — and with that point, I want to agree — that be something right in this legislation only because of that we shouldn't wait, always, for the testing. — that other provinces chose to pass the legislation in the [1035] Legislature, in respective provinces' assemblies. You don't want to have this bill have an outcome. He Th e second thing is that this bill has unanimous sup- suggests that one of his fears or concerns is that if some port from the Canadian Police Association and the health care worker or ambulance paramedic or fi refi ght- Vancouver Police Union. As the president stated: "Th is er or police was to wait for the testing and not take pro- bill will provide assistance to maintaining the safety of active action immediately, it could result in a response not only police offi cers but all front-line offi cers. It is im- that is not what we would want to have happen. Indeed, portant to identify that this bill also protects the general we hope this bill will save lives and help in some way. public's right to privacy." I want to fi nish up on that note and encourage those [1040] that are involved in all of those activities to take their Similarly, this bill has unanimous support from the health and safety, as I know they do, very seriously and Ambulance Paramedics of B.C. Their president, Ms. to take proactive steps whenever one of those occasions Barter, states: "Our paramedics and partners in police comes up. I think this is at least a tool in the toolkit to al- and fi re are exposed to needle-stick injuries or blood low the province of British Columbia to assist those fi rst splashes routinely, and not being able to fi nd out in a responders, who I know we all in this House respect and timely manner whether or not you have been exposed are very, very proud of. to a blood-borne illness can cause a great deal of stress. With that, I will conclude my remarks. I do want to say We have the right to know. We appreciate the work the that I will be standing in support of Bill 39. I think it's a entire House has done on this issue. It is an example of right move at a good time. truly putting workers' safety fi rst." 11472 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

Th irdly, there is also unanimous support from the B.C. some serious questions and concerns about this. I think Professional Fire Fighters Association. Th eir president, we should debate those concerns at committee stage and Michael Hurley, states: "Th is act is designed to protect try to fi nd the answers and debate those very important the emergency responders who, without hesitation and issues at committee stage as well. on a daily basis, will put themselves in harm's way to One of the points I would like to actually quote from protect every citizen in the province. Th is lets respond- his letter, which I think is very important and which ers in B.C. be protected with the same rights as other makes sense for us to accept. Th at is: "Th e exposed indi- Canadian provinces." viduals have access to universal pre-exposure precautions, This bill has the support from all concerned stake- timely and appropriate post-exposure assessment and holders, particularly the people, the first responders. counselling and, most importantly, have access to timely Unanimous support from all of the diff erent parties, in- PCR testing of their blood to assess the outcome of any cluding…. Th is kind of bill has already been passed in exposure." fi ve other provinces. Th erefore, I stand in this House to I think this recommendation makes sense. Th is recom- support this bill, to provide the level of comfort to the mendation will also provide some comfort to the people, fi rst responders so that they can go out every day and the first responders. I support this recommendation, perform that diffi cult task they perform for the people and I think many members of this House will support of British Columbia. this recommendation as well, because it makes sense as Madam Speaker, I can share my experience with you the science is not perfect. It will never be perfect in my as to how the fear of being exposed to HIV or hepatitis opinion, so we still have limitations to give somebody a C or hepatitis B can cause a lot of stress to the individual 100 percent guarantee that you are not exposed or are ex- and the family. posed to communicable disease. Last January I went on welfare for one month. During It makes sense in that situation to take precautions, as that time, I stayed in the Downtown Eastside. I saw po- suggested by our very experienced provincial health of- lice or ambulance working almost 24 hours, busy. Every fi cer, Dr. Perry Kendall. Having said that, I would like half an hour I heard the police car or ambulance passing to probably conclude by saying that I feel proud here, by, going to situations which are very diffi cult situations. standing in the House, to support this bill, which is for I can say from my experience that those are the situa- the safety of the fi rst responders and also the safety of the tions where many of us would not like to go. But these people of British Columbia. At the same time, we need people not only go in those buildings, where people with to look at and question and debate the concerns raised severe mental health problems and addictions reside — by Dr. Perry Kendall in his letter to us. they don't only go into those buildings — they actually Having said that, Madam Speaker, thanks for the op- attend to those people in very diffi cult situations, without portunity. I support this bill. looking into whether people are bleeding or whatever the situation. Th ey attend to them and try to provide the best R. Fleming: I am pleased to rise and say a few com- services they can to make sure they are safe and they can ments at second reading stage of this bill, Bill 39, the survive. Th ose are very diffi cult situations to be in, but Emergency Intervention Disclosure Act, because this the fi rst responders go there, and they do the best job we is something that has been the subject of discussion can ever imagine, or ever dream, to assist those people. amongst legislators on both sides of the House for a I can say to you, Madam Speaker, that I was there number of years. for 15 days. I did go back to my doctor aft er the end of It is something that is a feature of law in other prov- this, and what my doctor told me was: "I cannot tell you inces. A previous colleague mentioned bills that exist whether you have been exposed to any disease like HIV in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and Nova or hepatitis C or hepatitis B until six months, because it Scotia. I'm most familiar with the Manitoba legislation, takes six months, actually, when it will show up in your the most recent legislation, and maybe would like to say blood sample. It may not show up even aft er six months." a few comments about the features of the law in right- Can you imagine the stress on you as an individual to-know legislation in Manitoba and how, with passage or the family in that situation, which is a very, very high of this bill, it will align with the proposed bill here in level of stress? British Columbia. [1045] Our knowledge, I think, as legislators comes from our Th erefore, I think it makes sense. It is logical, and it is work in our constituencies and our appreciation as MLAs responsible to give these people the right in a situation for the work that fi rst responders do, whether they are where they can actually go to court and ask the individual police offi cers or professional fi refi ghters or ambulance to provide the samples to make sure that they feel com- paramedics. Of course, those are the organizations who fortable in that situation. have been talking to MLAs for a number of years and I also understand that our provincial health offi cer, Dr. making their position known. Perry Kendall, has sent a letter to all the MLAs. He raised For me, it is the Victoria police department here in the Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11473

capital city, who have made their views known to me on Th ere is a potential roadblock there, where they are a number of occasions. Th e ambulance paramedics as not able to secure testing results and determine whether well — the provincial leaders, B.J. Chute and Bronwyn there has been exposure. Living with that in your daily Barter and the members of CUPE 873. But in particular, life amongst your family and friends and going to work the organization that I have held discussions with on the and having that uncertainty hanging over you, I think, is subject of this legislation most extensively is the Victoria a terrible state for us to contemplate for any professional Fire Fighters Union. — to go on doing their job and risk further exposure aft er [1050] a critical incident or distressing situation. Th e International Association of Fire Fighters has been We just can't really imagine. We're trying to put our- a critical component of developing laws that they believe selves in the shoes of these professionals who do this as protect the health and well-being of their members in the a matter of course in their daily jobs. I think that is what other provinces that I mentioned. Th ey have certainly is most persuasive about the bill. been of assistance in persuading me that the legislation [1055] that is before us is a good idea, as long as it's draft ed right We can well imagine these situations. People who rep- and there are protections in place — the concerns about resent their communities as members here are familiar both enforcement and the use of court orders — and, I with incidents and individuals who were involved in dif- think, the assurance that this is legislation that is likely to fi cult situations where there are, for example, shootings be incredibly rarely used in British Columbia. or horrifi c accidents or fi res. Th ose are the types of situ- I think that most incidents where there is risk to a fi rst ations that these professionals work in, train for and re- responder of a communicable disease in the line of their spond to on our behalf. duty, on the job, are covered by voluntary disclosures today. But there are the very, very rare incidents where [L. Reid in the chair.] there may be a refusal. Th at is why there needs to be a law that is able to resolve what happens in those instances. Th e legislation in Manitoba is, I believe, the most re- I mean, that is a point that the 120 members of the cent to pass a provincial legislature and join that other Victoria Fire Fighters Union — their representatives — group of provinces that have a bill like the one we're dis- stressed with me. Th ey don't expect that this would ever cussing this morning. Th e legislation has covered very be required, and they certainly hope it never will be in well the exposure concern and how, when an exposure Victoria, but the fact of the matter is they're doing more occurs from the source…. If there is a concern and a de- and more fi rst responder work in our city. Th e risk is ac- monstrable risk that, for example, hepatitis C or hepa- tually growing that perhaps this gap in legislation that is titis B or the transmission of HIV could occur, in the being addressed here in this bill…. It will be something province of Manitoba there is an application where that that their members could use and will give them and fi rst responder can make an actual determination as to their families peace of mind to know, in fact, whether whether that risk was real and whether there has in fact the exposure in an incident that has occurred poses a been transmission to that person. real risk to them. I think the issues that have been discussed by other Th at's really what the bill is about. Th at's the most im- members here around the involvement of physicians portant thing that I think MLAs have expressed at this and having a regime in place that will ensure the right stage in debating the bill — their understanding that fi re- amount of discretion and confi dentiality as well as, where fi ghters, for example, in most municipalities are the ones required, a compulsion to complete the application — if that address acute medical emergencies. Th ey're the ones necessary, there are provisions for court orders — are that attend to motor vehicle incidents, alongside police about as well thought out as possible in terms of the offi cers. Th ey're the ones that extricate crash victims out ability to reduce confl ict and address some of the valid of vehicles. concerns people have raised that would prevent this law Th ey are, as a matter of course in their duties of ful- being used abusively and too frequently. fi lling what society asks of them, exposed to communic- Th ose are concerns that others raised. I think they're able disease that could absolutely change the course of valid and legitimate. Th is law will bring into alignment their life and their ability to continue in their line of the right to know that British Columbians have in other work, in fact. situations — for example, if they're a victim of a crime — I think it is the right thing to do to allow the law to ad- and will extend that to those professionals, fi rst respond- dress the situation that has existed in British Columbia, ers in British Columbia, who are at risk of exposure in the where really, when there is a disputed situation where course of their working lives. It will align the legislation a fi rst responder — a professional fi refi ghter or a para- that exists for others in the health care system. medic — wants to determine whether the exposure has Th ere have been concerns raised that I don't think are defi nitively been made to them, there is the ability to persuasive about laws like this taking the onus off of job pursue testing. prevention strategies that we have to reduce risk. I don't 11474 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

buy that argument. I don't think having right-to-know It's an important issue that's been addressed in other legislation is going to slacken the professional work that provinces, as previous colleagues have said. British is done to minimize contact, create a culture of safety and Columbia now is joining other provinces — Alberta, safe practices, and provide the right equipment in muni- Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia, as well cipal fi re departments, in the ambulance paramedic ser- as Manitoba — with a bill like this. vice and in policing. I just don't. Th is is a bill that will allow…. Some people have used I understand that is a point that has been raised out- the term "peace of mind," and other members have used side of this chamber by way of public discussion on this diff erent terminology. But the bottom line is this. It will bill. But I don't think the culture of precaution that fi rst help to protect and give a sense of confi dence to our fi rst responders have developed over many decades and the responders in our province when dealing with a situa- equipment and technologies that are in place to prevent tion, which they very oft en fi nd themselves in, where they exposure to infection in the fi rst place are going to be come into contact with bodily fl uids that may potentially diminished because of the achievement of right-to-know contain or have a communicable disease. legislation. Th at's not an argument against the bill that I I think it's important to stress, as my colleague from think is a legitimate one. Victoria–Swan Lake did, that this bill in no way replaces [1100] or will take away from the precautions, the training, the I have talked with fi rst responders about that very fact, education that's already in place around what happens and they suggest that in fact the opposite occurs. Th is is when you come into contact with bodily fl uids. In fact, a fi nal-resort law. But in other provinces that have this as my local fi refi ghters in Port Coquitlam like to say, this legislation, fi rst responders continue to improve upon is one more tool, part of their training that they have be- and develop infection risk-control procedures and poli- fore them. cies and practices, and that just is a fact. First and foremost, of course, is always going to be edu- Madam Speaker, I think I will conclude my remarks cation and training. First and foremost is always going and thank you for the opportunity to address Bill 39 here to be precautionary measures. Th ose things are going to this morning. I look forward to committee stage debate be crucial. But at the same time, it's important to know because I think there are some points that will be an- — and I think this is where the peace of mind part comes swered by the government side, where there are some in — that there's also a legislative tool. Th ere is a legisla- outstanding questions, including ones that have been tive backup to their training and their practices that will raised by British Columbia's public health offi cer. help to ensure that they know whether or not they have At this stage of debate, I think this legislation is going been exposed to a communicable disease through their to be a good thing. I congratulate the organizations that role as fi rst responders. have worked with MLAs and briefed legislators over a [1105] number of years to see us get to the stage where we're One of the questions I do have about this particular having offi cial debate on a piece of legislation here today. legislation that I would like to explore at committee stage I know many individuals have worked very hard to do is…. Th e act allows fi rst responders, which are generally that, and I think British Columbia is also having a debate police, fi refi ghters and ambulance paramedics, to apply that other provinces had a number of years ago. We're for court-ordered testing for communicable diseases in looking at joining that league of provinces that believes situations where the responder has been exposed to bod- that right-to-know legislation is the right thing to do, the ily fl uids. I hope that scope is not just limited to fi refi ght- fair thing to do for fi rst responders who go out every day ers and ambulance paramedics but recognizes that fi rst and work on our behalf to keep British Columbians safe. responders can oft en be nurses. Th ey can oft en be transit workers. Th ey can be HEU members. Th ey can be many M. Farnworth: It's my pleasure to take my part in the people in the health care professions. debate on Bill 39, the Emergency Intervention Disclosure I know that the government has mentioned Good Act, a piece of legislation that fi rst responders in this Samaritans, but I'd like us to recognize that those are in- province have been pushing for, for quite some time, a dividuals who oft en can be fi rst on the scene or can be number of years. in a workplace environment where they could be jabbed I know that my own local fi re department in the city by a needle. It's important that they also have the ability of Port Coquitlam, on an annual basis…. When they to know. So I'd like to see some clarifi cation in commit- come over here to raise issues of concern to them and tee stage around that issue at this particular segment of other fi refi ghters and fi rst responders, this has been one the legislation. of their top issues that they would like government to ad- It's important to recognize why this particular bill is dress and deal with. I'm glad to see this particular piece here before us. I've said fi refi ghters have been lobbying of legislation before us here today, where we are now de- for it, as have paramedics. Th at is in the nature of the bating second reading, which I and my colleagues will work they do. Th ey are fi rst responders in many cases. In certainly be supporting. the case of fi refi ghters, it's not just fi res. It could be com- Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11475

ing across a terrible accident, as an example that's oft en With that, I know there are others who want to par- used, where the Jaws of Life are used and there's a lot of ticipate in this particular debate, and I look forward to blood at the scene. hearing their comments. I will take my seat, but I know It could be assisting someone who may have collapsed that in the city of Port Coquitlam, the Port Coquitlam — potentially an overdose, for example, or a massive car- fi refi ghters and the ambulance paramedics that I've had diac arrest — where the medical status of the individual conversations with are supportive of this particular piece is not known. In the course of providing life-saving treat- of legislation. I am pleased to be supporting it on their ments or life-saving procedures, a fi rst responder comes behalf. in contact with blood or bodily fl uid. Th ere are practices and procedures in place now, but B. Ralston: I rise to speak briefl y to Bill 39. I suppose I as I've said, this is an added protection. What it requires should begin by acknowledging the role and the eff ective is voluntarily disclosure, and most people do that. Th at's eff ort of the international fi refi ghters union in bringing one of the key things about this particular piece of legis- this issue to the attention of members of the Legislature, lation. on both sides, over a number of years. Th ere's no expectation by anybody that it's going to be I know that in my city of Surrey, Mike McNamara, used on a day-to-day basis in every situation, but rather, who's the president of the Surrey Fire Fighters, has it's for those rare occasions. And they are rare, because spoken with me about this, as in the past have previous the experience in other provinces is just that. It's that it presidents Larry Th omas and, before him, Lorne West. tends to be used sparingly, but it's in particular situations Th is is an issue which has been raised regularly by fi re- and circumstances where someone is refusing to dis- fi ghters and their representatives. Th ey have made a very close whether or not they have a communicable disease, eff ective and convincing presentation on a number of oc- and there has been contact through a needle prick, for casions about this issue. example, or contact with blood or saliva or some other Also, it's very clear, given the ambit of the legislation, bodily fl uid, as to whether there's a question that there that it's intended to apply to other fi rst responders. Th e has been the transmission of a communicable disease. president of the Ambulance Paramedics, Bronwyn Barter, Th is piece of legislation allows for a court order to has also expressed her support for the legislation, as has get that decision, to get that remedied. Again, that's not Tom Stamatakis, who's now the president of the nation- something that's done lightly. It's not something that's al organization of the Canadian Police Association but done on a day-to-day basis, but it is there for particular, also the president of the Vancouver Police Union. Clearly, unique situations. those people who represent the people who do the work, I think that's important. I know that in my discussions who are the front-line responders, regard this as a valu- with fi refi ghters when they have been here over the last able step forward. number of years, they recognize that too. Th ey recognize Th e legislation is craft ed in a way…. Th e notice is that the importance of that, and they also, as I said, recognize it will apply initially through regulation to three blood- the importance of continuing to put in place the need for borne pathogens — hepatitis B, hepatitis C and HIV. But education and the need for precautionary practices. So I the legislation in, I believe, section 14(2)(d) gives the au- think the legislation is something that, as I said, will be a thority to expand the number of blood-borne pathogens tool that can be used, and it's an important one. that it might apply to. [1110] Additionally, in subsection 3(1) it sets out which fi rst Th ere are questions that have been raised by the prov- responders it applies to. It applies to those "providing incial health offi cer, Dr. Perry Kendall, for example. I emergency health services; (b) while performing his or think it's important that we do address some of the issues her duties as a fi refi ghter, an emergency medical assist- he has raised in committee stage of the bill. But I think, ant or a peace offi cer." on balance, this is a bill that strikes just that — the right Th en in 3(1)(c) it says: "while being involved in a pre- balance between the needs of our fi rst responders in this scribed circumstance or while carrying out a prescribed province and the issues around privacy. I think this bill activity." Th at is then refl ected in the regulations, where does achieve that balance, and that's why I'm pleased to that rather broad language, speaking of prescribed cir- support it. Th at's why I look forward to the committee cumstances and activities…. Section 14 gives power to stage debate, where we can address some of the issues create regulations which could expand the number of oc- that have been raised by Dr. Kendall. cupations or professions or indeed activities that would On the whole, I think this is a bill that sends a strong be touched by this legislation. message to fi rst responders in the province of British [1115] Columbia that members of this House have been listen- Th e legislation is forward-looking in the sense that it ing to their concerns and have put forward a piece of has left open the possibility of adding other occupations legislation that I think meets those needs. At the end of to the enumerated ones in section 3. It also, by regulation, the day, that should be what governing is about. has the potential to add other blood-borne pathogens or 11476 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

other diseases that it is thought appropriate to include in I want to acknowledge the work that Mike Hurley and this legislation. I support that forward-looking provision the B.C. fi refi ghters have done on this issue. I'd also like in the legislation. to acknowledge the work that the member for Kelowna– As members will know, it's oft en diffi cult to get on the Lake Country has done to bring this issue forward as a legislative calendar. Th is means that by using access to private member's bill and thank the government for in- regulation, although one would not want to overstate corporating it into a government bill in the Legislature this in every case, it does give the opportunity for gov- now. ernment to respond quickly and without the necessity [1120] of bringing amendments to the legislation in the House. We've seen some of the issues that have been raised by Th at sometimes can be a lengthy and cumbersome pro- the provincial health offi cer around this bill. I've read his cess, as we've seen with some of the more extensive bills submission carefully, and I've also looked at the submis- such as the Insurance Act, which took some six years to sion by the B.C. Civil Liberties Association around Bill 39. get through the House. Th ere were others. Complex legis- But overall, what we need to do as legislators is balance lation requires an immense amount of time to consult, rights today. It is sometimes a diffi cult balance to achieve, draft , put forward and ultimately pass. Th ose provisions but I believe this bill does achieve that delicate balance in this act make that helpful. of rights between the rights of emergency fi rst respond- Many have spoken about the fact that this legislation ers — their rights to know if they have been exposed to is designed to augment or add another layer of certainty a life-threatening disease — and the rights of the indi- to quell the uncertainty that might arise if one suspects vidual to refuse to disclose. I think this legislation does one is infected by any of the diseases that are mentioned. achieve that balance. As others have said, it will not replace the necessity to Th e members before me have spoken about how it's train, to take protection upon contact or suspected con- not oft en that someone refuses to disclose or to submit tact, to take the necessary regime of prophylactics. My blood for testing, but it does happen. Th e speaker before colleague from Vancouver–West End has spoken about me said that in Alberta they've only gone to court twice to that. I support that. ensure that disclosure would happen. I don't know what I view this legislation as an important step, another the numbers are in Manitoba. Th at legislation came into weapon in the arsenal to make our fi rst responders feel eff ect, I think, just a couple of years ago in 2009. Our gov- more secure and get to the bottom of what may have hap- ernment has modeled this legislation on the Manitoba pened in any incident in which they are involved. One model, but I don't know the numbers for Manitoba. can well imagine the intense and overwhelming anxiety I think British Columbia is a little different than that anyone who felt that they had been infected would the other provinces. We have a larger urban centre in experience, and this gives one further avenue to deal Vancouver with a higher number of challenges in society with that. — for instance, in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver As the minister has said, it's unlikely that the resort to where our emergency workers are more oft en exposed the courts, in the way that is prescribed here, will take to this danger. place very oft en. I believe the example given was that in Some of you in the House may know that two of my the province of Alberta, there have been two applications sons are police offi cers. Both of them have worked the in fi ve years. Th e fact that the legislation exists there will, Downtown Eastside for a number of years — one for ten obviously, in many cases convince the person who may years walking the beat down there — and have come into be suspected of carrying the disease, if that's brought to contact with the potential for this kind of worry or drama, their attention, that a resort to the courts is not necessary. or however you want to phrase it, more than once. It may make their cooperation with the fi rst responder In fact, one son's former police partner was stuck at a concerned much more eff ective and speedy. time when they had just had their fi rst baby. For a course Th is is legislation that's widely supported, which comes of six months he had to undergo this treatment, and that as a culmination of a number of years of work, of persua- treatment has its own side eff ects and problems. It has a sion by fi rst responders and their union representatives. toxicity level that we're all well aware of, or most of us I'm pleased to record my support for the legislation here are well aware of. today. With those brief comments, I will cede the fl oor Aside from the medical side eff ects that may or may not to the next speaker. result because of the treatment, there are also the psych- ological and social aspects around it. For six months he D. Black: I'm pleased to have an opportunity to wasn't able to have any intimate relationships with his speak in the House today on Bill 39, the Emergency wife. For six months he had to be extremely careful about Intervention Disclosure Act. Some of us call it the right- how he handled his infant daughter and how cuddling to-know legislation that professional firefighters in and aff ectionate he could be with his daughter. I know British Columbia and in fact across the country have that imposed a great deal of stress and anxiety on the been lobbying for, for many years. family — not only stress and anxiety but a lost oppor- Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11477

tunity in those early days of your child's life to express this bill has led to it being in the House today. I'd also like your love in the way that you wanted to in a closer way. to thank the MLA for Kelowna–Lake Country, who did I want people to understand that when legislatures a tremendous amount of work championing this cause look at this kind of legislation that might at some point through his private member's bill. infringe upon what's perceived to be the civil liberties of I'd really like to thank all of the fi rst responders who a person, there are also the rights of the person who has told their highly personal stories about themselves and been potentially exposed to hepatitis B, hepatitis C or their colleagues and their families, and, of course, for HIV/AIDS and that there are incredible stresses around their really amazing work that they do and the dedica- that too. tion and compassion that they exhibit and bring to that Finally, I just want to echo what everyone who's work every day here in the province. spoken from each side of the House has basically said — I appreciate the comments of support from members how much we owe to fi rst responders, fi refi ghters, para- on both sides of the House, and I look forward to fur- medics and police offi cers in our society. Without people ther discussion of this bill at committee stage. With that, who will take on these very challenging, dangerous but I move second reading of Bill 39. — from what I understand from my sons — also quite re- warding kinds of work, our society would be a much less Motion approved. safe, happy and secure place. [1125] Hon. M. MacDiarmid: I move that Bill 39 be referred With that, I again say that I believe this legislation to a Committee of the Whole for consideration at the achieves the balance of rights that all of us are elected next sitting of the House aft er today. here to do, and I give my support to the bill that's be- fore us. Bill 39, Emergency Intervention Disclosure Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the min- House for consideration at the next sitting of the House ister closes debate. aft er today.

Hon. M. MacDiarmid: First responders put their Hon. T. Lake: I now call second reading of Bill 14, inti- health and safety and, indeed, their lives on the line every tuled the Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2011. day in British Columbia. We've heard about that from members on both sides of the House. In the course of BILL 14 — WORKERS COMPENSATION doing their jobs, these men and women deal with emer- AMENDMENT ACT, 2011 gencies and situations where things are sometimes very clearly not under control, and yet they go ahead and do Hon. M. MacDiarmid: I move that Bill 14 now be their jobs. read a second time. A number of fi rst responders from across the province Bill 14 makes three changes aff ecting workers com- were here in the Legislature when we introduced this pensation benefi ts under the Workers Compensation legislation. Th ey spoke before and aft er about how im- Act. Th ese changes relate to expanding compensation for portant this bill is for them and for their families. work-related mental disorders, compensation for appren- One of those who joined us that day was Bronwyn tices and learners, and confi rmation of dollar amounts Barter, who is the president of the Ambulance Paramedics for compensation and penalties. of B.C. When she was talking about the need for this bill, she said: "Th is is nothing against our patients. We love [L. Reid in the chair.] our patients, and we love our work." But Bronwyn spoke of the importance that fi rst responders attach to the right Our government is committed to putting families fi rst to know if they have been exposed to a serious com- by protecting and creating jobs for British Columbians. municable disease and how important it was not only for Th ese amendments show our continuing commitment the fi rst responders but for their families as well. to ensuring that B.C.'s workers compensation system re- With this bill, we support the health and well-being mains responsive to the needs of both workers and em- of our fi rst responders while ensuring private informa- ployers. tion is protected. Before I discuss the proposed changes, I'd like to give you some background on the workers compensation sys- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] tem as it stands today, as well as the rationale for mak- ing these changes. Th ere have been a lot of thank-yous in the House over Over the past number of years there has been ever- the last few hours of debate. I certainly want to thank the increasing awareness about mental health issues, due in Premier of British Columbia, whose strong support of no small part to the bravery and willingness of individ- 11478 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

uals such as Olympian Clara Hughes, Roméo Dallaire sure that our workplace health and safety regulations are and Margaret Trudeau. Th eir willingness to talk about strong, clear and specifi c when it comes to bullying and their experiences has helped to decrease the stigma that harassment. Th at's why WorkSafe B.C. will develop a has too oft en surrounded mental illness. policy on bullying and harassment, which will be added Th e impacts of mental health issues are not isolated to the existing regulation that addresses violence in the to individuals and their families. We know that work- workplace, and stakeholders will be consulted in this im- related mental disorders can have a signifi cant eff ect on portant work. Th is policy will expand the defi nition of workers. Th ey can also aff ect the health and productiv- violence and require employers to have formal preven- ity of the workplace in a number of ways — reduced effi - tion plans. As well, with the help of the employer com- ciency, frequent absences and poor decision-making that munity and all stakeholders, WorkSafe B.C. will develop can result in accidents and injury. a prevention toolkit for employers to use. [1130] In relation to bullying, harassment and other signifi - Now, most of us are fortunate, and we will never suf- cant work-related stressors, we will require a diagnosis fer from a mental disorder. But we do know that one in to demonstrate that a signifi cant work-related stressor is fi ve Canadians will have a mental health problem, a sig- the predominant cause of the disorder. Th is is to ensure nifi cant problem, sometime in their life. For those who that compensation is provided only for legitimate work- do, we do have a responsibility to support their recovery. related mental disorders. As well, claims for mental dis- Our government recognizes that we need to treat men- orders that arise out of an employment decision, such as tal disorders that arise from the workplace in the same discipline, termination or other decisions related to the way as we treat physical disabilities, and that's why we're worker's employment, will be excluded. making these amendments. To be clear, this amendment will not open up work- Currently workers compensation is provided for men- ers compensation coverage for stress that a worker is ex- tal stress that is an acute reaction to a sudden and trau- periencing as a result of the normal course of business at matic event arising out of a worker's employment, so work or at home. Th is is a very important bill for workers basically we're talking about post-traumatic stress dis- and employers, and it's critical that we make sure that we order. But we know that mental disorders arising in the have it right and that its intentions are clear. workplace can sometimes build over a period of time. Since fi rst introducing Bill 14, a number of stakehold- Th at's why we're expanding the compensation provisions ers stepped forward with recommendations and their so that work-related mental disabilities are recognized on thoughts. We've listened to that feedback, and we believe a broader basis to include a mental disorder that results it's important to make some amendments to Bill 14 to from one or more traumatic events or a mental disor- provide clarity for both employers and workers. Th at's der predominantly caused by a signifi cant work-related why I have tabled four amendments to this legislation. stressor or a cumulative series of signifi cant work-related They include a reference to harassment and bully- stressors, including bullying or harassment. ing as signifi cant work-related stressors; a predominant Let me pause for a moment to highlight that last point. cause test for signifi cant work-related stressors, includ- Th is government's position is that bullying or harassment ing harassment and bullying; a change in terminology in the workplace is completely unacceptable, whether it from "mental stress" to "mental disorder"; and a revised is physical or psychological. I know that the employer requirement for a diagnosis of a recognized mental dis- community has already committed to working on pre- order by a psychiatrist and a psychologist, rather than venting bullying in the workplace, and I applaud them from a physician. Th ese amendments strengthen the bill for taking the initiative. and help ensure that the legislation achieves its intended At the same time, we're also working to address the objectives, while protecting the fi nancial integrity of the fact that bullying behaviours can start early in life. Th at's workers compensation system. why our government will soon be announcing a com- One fi nal note. In the coming weeks WorkSafe B.C. prehensive anti-bullying strategy which will help create will be developing policies to support the legislation, in- safer, more inclusive schools for B.C.'s kids. By teaching cluding what is a "traumatic event" and what constitutes children the meaning of respect, tolerance and accept- a "signifi cant work-related stressor" eligible for compen- ance while they're in school, we will be raising a new sation. Stakeholders will be consulted before that policy generation of workers who will bring those skills into is fi nalized. their workplace. [1135] I want to stress that there are measures currently in Th is is an important change that will support British place to protect the safety of all workers. Every employ- Columbia workers. Expanding workers compensa- er in this province is expected to ensure the health and tion coverage for recognized mental disorders arising safety of employees, and they must remedy any hazard- in the workplace also supports British Columbia fam- ous conditions in the work environment. ilies because of the signifi cant impact that these kind of But in order to fully protect workers, we need to en- disorders can have on a worker's family. Perhaps most Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11479

importantly, this change will encourage workplace prac- panded coverage for work-related mental disorders, en- tices that promote the mental well-being of all workers courage employers to take a leading role in providing in British Columbia. environments that promote the mental well-being of Under the amendment I have tabled, these new pro- workers. Th ey help us to continue our commitment to visions for claims for mental disorders will apply to all ensuring that our workers compensation system remains decisions made by WorkSafe B.C. and by the Workers responsive to the needs of both workers and employers. Compensation Appeal Tribunal on or aft er July 1, 2012. I look forward to hearing the contributions to the de- Bill 14 will also change the compensation provided to bate from the other hon. members on both sides of the injured apprentices and learners. Currently apprentices House. and learners receive benefi ts based on their current wage for the fi rst ten weeks of their temporary disability. Aft er R. Chouhan: I'm a little bit surprised at the speed of ten weeks, compensation rises to a level based on the these Bill 14 amendments that have been brought to the starting rate of a qualifi ed person in the trade. House for second reading. Yesterday, when I met with We've heard from employers that this higher level of the ministry staff , I was left with the understanding that compensation could act as a disincentive to return to these amendments in Bill 14 would not be up for second work. Th is amendment will see apprentices and learners reading debate until next week. Given that we didn't have receive compensation that is more fairly based on their any time to do any background checks and do proper re- loss of earnings due to their injury. We're proposing that search on some of the issues, my comments are going to aft er ten weeks, compensation benefi ts for a temporary be somewhat limited. disability will be based on the wage rate they earned at Th e minister has said how our compensation system the time of injury or their gross earnings in the previ- remains responsive to the needs of the working people, ous 12 months, whichever is greater. Compensation for but the opposite is true. permanent disabilities will continue to be based on the [1140] starting rate of a qualifi ed person in the trade. If you look at the history of Workers Compensation Th is amendment supports two of the key principles of Act amendments that we have seen since 2002, amend- the Workers Compensation Act: to compensate injured ment aft er amendment that we have seen since then has workers for the loss of earnings resulting from their im- made sure that for the workers to claim any compensa- pairment and to promote the return to work for injured tion, it has become so much more diffi cult. Unlike be- workers when they are ready. Our government feels these fore the 2002 amendments, workers, when they were changes strike a fair balance for workers and employers. injured, had a great deal of respect shown by the Workers Under the amendment I have tabled, the new compen- Compensation Board. Now what they have to do is go sation provision for apprentices and learners will apply through lots of hoops. It's not easy for them to get the to injuries that occur on or aft er July 1, 2012. Th is short compensation when they need it. delay in implementation will provide WorkSafe B.C. with In 2002 when the B.C. Liberals brought the changes to time to develop the necessary policies and system adjust- the Workers Compensation Act, that was the time when ments to implement this change. signifi cant changes were made to the compensation act Lastly, Bill 14 also updates the compensation and pen- which made it almost impossible for police offi cers or any alty dollar amounts referred to in the act to refl ect the other emergency workers to access stress-related com- latest approved amounts. Th ese dollar amounts are ad- pensation. When those changes were made, there was justed each year with the consumer price index in order lots of opposition expressed by the peace offi cers, fi re- to keep up with infl ation and the cost of living. Th is part fi ghters and fi rst responders about that issue. of Bill 14, along with the amendment I have tabled, sim- However, we saw that as usual, many of the B.C. ply confi rms the most recent adjustments to these dollar Liberal members in the House at that time expressed a amounts in the act. Th is is a legal housekeeping amend- great deal of satisfaction. As we have seen over and over, ment that has no impact on workers or employers. the member for Kamloops–South Th ompson was very One fi nal thing to note is that I've tabled an amend- happy when he said, on May 27, 2002: "In this matter ment to delete the change in Bill 14 related to common- of stress claims, once again, I think the government has law spouses. Th at change, to change the eligibility period taken a very careful, very measured, very deliberate ap- for survivor benefits for common-law spouses, was proach: stress claims being accepted if they fl ow directly also included as a consequential amendment in Bill 16, from an injury on the job. If you open the door wide to the Family Law Act. Th at bill received royal assent on anyone who feels stress in his or her job…." November 24, 2011, and the change related to workers With those kinds of comments, the Liberals were sim- compensation benefi ts has already come into eff ect on ply trying to tell the peace offi cers and fi rst responders: March 1 of this year. "No, no, no. Th ere is no stress with your job. If you are Before concluding, I'd like to reinforce one point. Th e stressed out, if you are experiencing those kinds of diffi - amendments contained in Bill 14, particularly the ex- culties at work, there's no compensation for you." 11480 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

Now, aft er so many years of lobbying by the peace of- We should be taking steps to make sure that workers fi cers and fi rst responders in general, the government — the young workers mainly — come to the industry and has fi nally agreed to do something about it. When Bill be part of that. Th en they should be feeling very confi - 14 was tabled in the last session in the fall of last year, I dent that in case something happens, they would be taken had a mixed feeling. I thought Bill 14 was moving in the care of. Now, with this change that we have in Bill 14 in right direction when we were talking about mental stress, front of us, it's not going to be easy for them. All of that at least in that part. However, if you look at the changes is just going against the common wisdom of attracting that have been brought forward, it seems like the thresh- young workers to the construction industry. Th is is not old has been raised so much higher now. It's not going to going to be very helpful. be easy for people to claim compensation if they have a If you look at the changes proposed in Bill 14…. Let stress-related injury. me just summarize some of these under section 33.2. In Other information that I have found out. Let me see. all imaginable cases where 33.2 is applied, the injured Here it is. Th e amendments that the Minister of Labour worker will receive lower compensation aft er the changes has proposed…. If you look at section 5.1(1)(a)(ii), it than they receive presently. Th e changes do not appear to has now added the words: is predominantly caused by "a take into account the substantial impacts that may result signifi cant work-related stressor." When you add those to the vocational rehab benefi ts. kinds of conditions to the language, obviously, it's not go- Th e changes do not appear to take into account the ing to be that easy or helpful for someone to fi le claims. possible motivation factor for injured workers to accept Th en in the previous bill that was tabled last fall, Bill 14, the conclusion of wage loss when their wage rate will in- when people were asking for compensation, they could crease substantially if they're entitled to vocational rehab. have just simply gone to their physician. Th e physician Th e changes result in inconsistencies in how appren- could have recommended or agreed that the stress was tices and learners are treated versus students and young caused by the work-related situation and that they were workers. All in all, what we see here is that we have cre- eligible for compensation. ated barrier aft er barrier for young workers to enter into [1145] the construction industry. Th en when they're injured, Now what we have seen in the amendments is that they would not be treated the same as they used to be. that is taken out. Th e requirement to go to a physician is It's unclear on how this will aff ect vocational rehab no longer there. Now we have added a psychiatrist and benefits. The vocational rehab wage loss equivalency a psychologist. Th ose are the kinds of higher thresholds benefi ts are usually based on the long-term wage rate that, when you put it in, are not much help for the work- paid during the claim. So I have several questions. I hope ers when they go through such stress. I don't know what the minister will take note of that and will answer some to expect from this government, which says one thing of these questions during the next stage. and does another. Will vocational rehab benefi ts now be based on the I was very hopeful when that bill was introduced that higher-qualifi ed-worker wage rate? Which rate will be fi nally the fi rst responders, the police offi cers or any- used by the vocational rehab to determine their appro- body who may have had that kind of stress-related dis- priate plan? How will the vocational rehab arrange any ability could go and seek compensation. Now, with these early interventions prior to the worker's injury being amendments, I don't think it is going to be that easy. deemed permanent if they don't know what this long- Th en I'm really concerned about section 33, the chan- term wage rate will be? ges that have been introduced about apprentice compen- [1150] sation. What's happening currently is that any apprentice Will injured workers be pressured to accept and/or receives benefi ts based on their current wage for the fi rst pushed to be found permanently disabled if this were to ten weeks of their temporary disability. Aft er ten weeks, result in a substantial increase in benefi ts paid? Will this the rate jumps to the starting rate of a qualifi ed person impact on their willingness to appeal the permanency de- in their trade. cision? All of these questions are valid questions. Th is amendment will change the compensation pro- I hope that when we go to next stage, the minister will vided to apprentices and learners so that aft er ten weeks, do some research and will try to clarify the impact of benefi ts for a temporary disability will be based on the these changes on the workers on both ends, the mental wage rate that they earned on the day they were injured stress as well as apprentices. Th is is my very quick re- or on their average earnings in the previous 12 months, view of the bill that we have in front of us. With these whichever is greater. amendments, it doesn't look like it's very favourable, Now, that is going to put them in a very diffi cult situ- very supportive or very helpful to the workers in British ation, especially in the construction industry, when we Columbia. are experiencing so much shortage of skilled workers. Th is kind of act is not going to encourage people to join Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the min- that industry. ister closes debate. Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11481

Hon. M. MacDiarmid: Th anks to the member oppos- Minister, do you have any opening remarks? ite for his comments. Hon. G. Abbott: Immediately on my right is James [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Gorman, who is the deputy minister. Let's see. We have Keith… We'll have time. He's requested that I will answer his questions, and certainly, I will be happy to do that when A Voice: Miller. we get to the next stage. Th is is a very important bill. It's important that we Hon. G. Abbott: …Miller — I'm off to a really bad spend the time talking about it. It's important to workers. start here — and Rick Davis, also assistant deputy min- I understand that the member opposite has some con- ister. cerns, which we'll certainly take the time to address, but We're delighted to be here to talk about the wonderful overall, I'm looking forward to the next stage. things that are occurring in the Ministry of Education in With that, I move second reading of Bill 14. the province of British Columbia. We have a number of initiatives underway. I know we've had the opportunity Motion approved. to debate, earlier in the House, both Bill 36 and Bill 22. I'm sure members of the opposition may have questions Hon. M. MacDiarmid: I move that Bill 14 be referred arising from that. to a Committee of the Whole for consideration at the We have been working diligently on the B.C. edu- next sitting of the House aft er today. cation plan, which we're very excited about. British Columbia, as I think hopefully we all would acknow- Bill 14, Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 2011, ledge, has a good education system but certainly one read a second time and referred to a Committee of the capable of improvement. We're always looking at op- Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the portunities, based on good things that are happening in House aft er today. some places in British Columbia. Some school districts in British Columbia are looking at the great things that Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported are occurring there, looking at the experience nation- progress, was granted leave to sit again. ally and internationally, at what we might learn to move British Columbia's education system from overall good Hon. J. Yap moved adjournment of the House. to very good. Th ese are exciting areas. I look forward to hearing the Motion approved. thoughtful and, undoubtedly, constructive questions from the opposition — and, I'm certain, members of the Mr. Speaker: Th is House stands adjourned until 1:30 government side as well — in the hours ahead in these this aft ernoon. estimates. With that, I'd welcome any questions that members may have. Th e House adjourned at 11:52 a.m. R. Austin: Th ank you to the minister for his comments and to all the staff who are here, including a very special PROCEEDINGS IN THE welcome to Mr. Miller. DOUGLAS FIR ROOM I'd like to begin by asking a very general question. Can the minister tell us if any performance measures from the Committee of Supply service plan have been dropped or added since last year? Which ones, and for what reason? ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION Hon. G. Abbott: Keith Miller has been displaced by The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); Paige MacFarlane as a consequence of this being her area J. McIntyre in the chair. rather than Keith's. We hadn't appreciated this early in- terest in performance measures. Th e committee met at 10:10 a.m. [1015] Th e answer to the question posed by the opposition On Vote 18: ministry operations, $5,308,638,000. critic is that there has been no change in the performance indicators. Th at having been said, there are a number of Th e Chair: Good morning, everyone. We'll begin the changes in terms of the strategic plan, which we're happy consideration of the budget estimates for the Ministry to walk the member through. But in terms of the things of Education. that we are tracking, that has not changed. 11482 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

R. Austin: Could the minister tell me if there have who was registering for an on-line course potentially with been any fee increases or new fees imposed — what an organization other than the Coquitlam school district? those fees are, how much, and how does that compare to the old fees? R. Austin: No. It is an adult on-line course with the I don't need the minister to speak about the potential school district. increases in IB fees, because that's part of a piece of legis- lation that's going through the House right now. I under- Hon. G. Abbott: We'll follow up and try to get some stand that. But in addition to that, what other fee increases further response to the member in respect to that ques- have happened over the year throughout the ministry? tion. Again, we'd need to follow up and get a little bit more information on it before we can comment. Hon. G. Abbott: Just note that Keith Miller has now displaced Paige McFarlane, this being more his area R. Austin: I'll ask another very general question. Can than hers. the minister inform us if there has been an increase to Fees are set by the school districts, not by the ministry. the specifi c budget for the minister's offi ce, and if there We can, if the member wishes, try to ascertain whether has, what is that money being used for, being spent on? any fees have changed at school districts — not that we'd be immediately aware of it here. Fees are generally the Hon. G. Abbott: Th e budget is stable for executive purview of the school districts, as opposed to the min- support services, which is the area in which the minis- istry telling them to raise fees or leave them the same. ter's offi ce budget resides.

R. Austin: I received interest from someone who has R. Austin: Sorry. I must be a little bit at odds here. I just signed up — on continuing education, this is — for thought there was an increase in the minister's budget of a math 11 foundation. When he went to apply, over- $773,000. Am I incorrect in that? night the fees had increased by 400 percent, and he was requested to now pay $500 to do the math 11 founda- Th e Chair: Minister, a reminder about the use of elec- tion math skill. tronic devices while you're on your feet, while you have You know, the fees, if you want to do a three-credit the fl oor. course at UBC, are $470.04. If you want to do a three- credit course at SFU, it's $491.80. Even if you go to Hon. G. Abbott: Oh, sorry. I'll just have to lean over, Douglas College and do a three-credit course, it's $339. then, and peek. Th e important information came in on My question to the minister is: does he think it is ap- an electronic device. Th at's part of the magic of contem- propriate — especially for someone who is, obvious- porary government and politics, apparently. ly, trying to upgrade in a world where we're trying to Th e $773,000 which the member references is for pub- encourage people to continue their education right lication and advertising. It's not the minister's offi ce. throughout their lifetime — for there to be a fee of $500 [1025] for someone doing something like math 11, when you consider that all they received, essentially, for this $500 R. Austin: So $773,000 for publication and advertis- was four sheets of paper and an access code to go on line ing. Could the minister let us know what all of this ad- to be able to do this? What does the minister think of vertising is for, what it is to accomplish and why it's such those kinds of fees? a huge amount of money at a time when a lot of school districts are struggling to balance their books and put in Hon. G. Abbott: Th e components in the critic's ques- a budget that is balanced? tion are not adding up for us terribly well here. Could the member advise, fi rst of all, what school district his Hon. G. Abbott: Th e publication and advertising is in respondent is from, whether we're talking of a graduate relation to the B.C. ed plan. adult student, whether this is a distance learning pro- gram, that kind of thing? Again, we're struggling with R. Austin: Could the minister tell us what the total understanding how this might work in this instance. value of these contracts is? Presumably, it's $773,000. Who received these contracts, and what future contracts R. Austin: Yes, it is an adult student. It is continuing are budgeted for the coming year? education. He is from the Lower Mainland, Coquitlam area. I hope that helps. Hon. G. Abbott: Those contracts are undertaken [1020] through GCPE, not through our ministry, and should be raised in their ministry estimates. Hon. G. Abbott: Are we to presume that this was the Coquitlam school district, or is this an adult individual R. Austin: Just for my own knowledge, could the min- Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11483

ister please let me know which ministry that falls under, Hon. G. Abbott: Th e issues that arose over approxi- so I know where to go aft er this? mately a two-week period in 2010 of course were of concern to the partners. But all of those partners in the Hon. G. Abbott: Labour and Citizens' Services. provision of the service moved very quickly to resolve the issues that were raised. Th ey were resolved over a period R. Austin: Th ank you. See how quickly these answers of a couple of weeks. are coming. It's wonderful. All of the costs — in terms of resolving the issues, the I'd like to now just move to another topic of interest, cost of repair — were borne by the vendor. Th ey did stay which is BCeSIS. I know this is something that we've within the terms of the contract, and no penalty clauses canvassed a lot in the past. It's a bit of an ongoing saga. I were initiated. While I think everyone shared the frustra- know the minister is aware of the complex issue of data- tions of the users, particularly over that two-week period, bases and new technology, especially as he was formerly there was not an incremental cost to the ministry with the Minister of Health and has had to deal with eHealth respect to this system. and other issues. I'd like to begin on BCeSIS by asking, in relation to R. Austin: Surely, if Fujitsu had done the original test- when it crashed in 2010…. Can the minister tell us who ing…. Th en they also held the service contract which was responsible for testing the system prior to the pur- would have a guaranteed up time. When the system chase of BCeSIS, and did they perform tests of the sys- crashed, as the minister has said, for two weeks — with tem's ability to handle a high traffi c load? them having done the testing and having held the con- tract to guarantee service delivery — surely the contract Hon. G. Abbott: Just to note that Keith Miller has would have had some penalties for the fact that it wasn't again been displaced, this time by Assistant Deputy in use for two weeks. Minister Renate Butterfi eld, who is responsible for this area of government, public policy in the Ministry of Hon. G. Abbott: Just to be clear, the system never Education. The answer to the member's question is crashed for two weeks. Th ere was a period of about two Fujitsu. weeks where the system was certainly slower than it should have been. It was unsatisfactory in its perform- R. Austin: Was British Columbia the fi rst customer to ance for that period. It did cause inconvenience to the use this system on such a large scale? If so, what led them users of the system during that two-week period. to believe that the volume of users would not be an issue I guess the happier side of the story is that all of those aft er the testing that Fujitsu did? Presumably, their test- contractors, etc., who are partners in providing the sys- ing suggested that this was a good system that could do tem, worked very hard, 24-7 through that period, to everything that was asked of it by the minister or his team. resolve as quickly as possible the issues which had pre- I'd just like to know: was this the fi rst time it was used? sented the problem of a slower system. [1030] [1040] Th ere wasn't, I think, ever any sense that the partners Hon. G. Abbott: First, note that BCeSIS was, to our had failed in terms of trying to rectify the issues. As a knowledge, the fi rst pan-jurisdictional student on-line consequence — if this is where the member is going — reporting system in North America. We're not aware there was never an attempt to recover, legally, any addi- of anyone else who had undertaken this kind of pan- tional funding. As I said in an earlier answer, there was jurisdictional reporting system prior to that. It's a ten- no incremental cost to the ministry. Th e partners bore year-old system and, I guess, kind of like Windows 98, the cost of repairs. is from a little earlier era. The member rightly pointed out the challenges of R. Austin: Just so I understand this, the minister re- 2010. Th e challenges of 2010 produced some hardware fers to partners. Aside from the company that original- and soft ware changes which have resulted in system sta- ly designed the system, AAL — and Fujitsu, which had bility since that time. I would also note that the original the contract to maintain it; I think I'm correct in saying provider was AAL. AAL has since changed ownership, that they took over — once Pearson bought the company, as the member knows, but that was the original vendor. they announced publicly that they were not going to support the system. Th en, presumably, Fujitsu assumed R. Austin: Could the minister tell us what the specif- that contract to support the system. But the minister re- ics were of the service level guarantees in the agreement fers to partners. Who else is involved in supporting the with Fujitsu, and did the outage in the fall of 2010 con- BCeSIS system? stitute a breach? If so, were fi nancial penalties sought by the ministry? Hon. G. Abbott: School districts and Oracle, which [1035] became the vendor. 11484 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

R. Austin: Th e soft ware bug, or whatever it was that project by Shared Services…. It goes into great detail as was identifi ed and fi xed in the fall of 2010 — was that the to the best practices used to contract with Fujitsu, but in cause of all the problems associated with the high load, or that very same report it kind of glosses over the process only the major factor of the slowing down of the system used to contract with AAL, the original people who de- in 2010? Was it one single thing that took a long time to signed the system. I'm just wondering under what cir- discover, or was it a series of things? cumstances those contracts were signed. Th e reason I ask this question is that we're focused on the particular periods in time when the BCeSIS system Hon. G. Abbott: Th e procurement process raised by hasn't worked properly, but as the minister would well the member was consistent with government procure- know, the system had bugs all the way through. I mean, I ment processes as of 2002. None of the offi cials with me can remember working in the school system in 2003 and were with the ministry at that time, but what we know is 2004 when there was a huge amount of frustration, even that it was a very rigorous and open procurement pro- going that far back, among teachers at specifi c times of cess. It involved Ministry of Education offi cials as well the year — obviously, report card time being one, and as school district offi cials. Th ere was a formal request for also the beginning of the school year when they were proposals. AAL was the successful proponent, but there formulating all the classes — where the system proved were other proponents in the fi eld as well. really, really diffi cult to use. So there have been ongoing problems. R. Austin: Given that the minister has already said My question to the minister is basically: was it just one on the public record that all the costs in upgrading or big thing that they fi nally found a solution to, or was it a improving the system in 2010 were borne by the suppli- series of problems over all these years? ers — whether it be Oracle or Fujitsu — we know now that test tools were installed aft er those problems in 2010. Hon. G. Abbott: To the member's question, there was Could the minister tell us why these testing tools weren't no single issue around…. Th ere were multiple changes put in place prior to that, before the system went prov- made to try to stabilize and improve the system in 2010. incewide, which might have stopped all of these prob- It has produced, actually, stability in the system since lems and the frustration that was felt by administrators then. It is notable that we have just come through a very and teachers over the years? busy report card season at 60 school districts, and there [1050] has been, to our knowledge, no complaint with respect to the eff ectiveness of the system. Hon. G. Abbott: In terms of testing tools, this is not [1045] the world that I normally live in. Th e member may in- I guess the fi nal point I would make, and make it again habit the world of high technology. I do not. Also, in — I know I made this point in estimates last year — is that forming an accurate answer for the member, it is neces- boldly or otherwise, the Ministry of Education in British sary to reach back in time to 2002 and decisions that Columbia was the fi rst in the fi eld in terms of building were made at that time. But we believe this to be accurate. a pan-jurisdictional student reporting system. Th at was In looking at the question of testing tools, one can undertaken in 2002. It has, I'm sure, at moments been either test the system with, for example, 5,000 to 10,000 challenging for users. But I suspect that whether you're users, even though they know there will be more users in the banking system or in airline travel or wherever you on the system, versus testing with a larger number — i.e., happen to be, there are periodic challenges with technol- 50,000. I gather that as of 2010, it went to a testing tool ogy. Periodically those challenges require upgrades on of 50,000. both soft ware and hardware. Th e answer to, "Why not do that initially?" is that the Th e biggest change was in 2010, but we do have a stable service management council of the day looked at that. system that has performed well since 2010. We continue Th ey assessed the cost and benefi t of undertaking that to have the largest student reporting system in Canada. broader testing tool. Th ey came to the conclusion that When you attempt to do something as bold as that, there testing to full load would be very costly in relation to the will inevitably be some challenges with it. But we believe benefi t it would provide, and they made that decision. that the value of the data that's collected far outweighs On the member's earlier question about the individ- any of these periodic challenges that one might have with ual from Coquitlam and the suggestion that he would be a system of this magnitude. charged…. I think the member mentioned it was $500 for the math 11 course. Yes, $500, math 11, graduate adult. R. Austin: Th e procurement process for the soft ware Th e district of Coquitlam has been in contact with this application — was it conducted under procurement best individual to advise that there had been some confusion practices? Th e reason I ask is that I want to know if there with respect to the cost of the course. were other bidders, and what the time frame was for that It should be noted that under the education guar- bidding. Having read through a May 2007 report on the antee for graduate adults, foundation skills are funded. Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11485

All grade 11 and 12 courses are included. A district can once it's sold, can't be resold. It is important, if you've charge a $250 refundable deposit, which is returned to got hundreds of people going in at the same time, that it the individual upon substantial completion of the course. be web-based and in real time. But I don't quite under- [1055] stand the logic or the rationale as to why this has to be Th at is, they don't have to pass it, but they do have to web-based for BCeSIS. be engaged in the course for a period of time to get their If little Johnny is not in school today in Salmon Arm, $250 deposit, as I understand it. So there are going to be it's important that we know that Johnny isn't in school in some communications out to districts today to clarify Salmon Arm. But is it important that we know right this this point. It is a $250 refundable deposit. It sounds as if second that he's not in school, or would it have been okay there had been some miscommunication with this indi- for us to know later that day or later that week, when all vidual initially, which has now been sorted out. of this data could have been aggregated? So my question is: what was the reason for deciding to R. Austin: Wow. Something solved so quickly as go web-based? I just don't see why all this information that. Who says that the government of British Columbia needed to be instantaneously at the hands of Mr. Gorman doesn't work? and his colleagues. Maybe the minister could explain that. I think that a lot of the problems we've encountered over Hon. G. Abbott: Estimates are a powerful thing. the years from BCeSIS do stem from that decision. I'll be interested to hear why that decision was made. R. Austin: Th ey are a very powerful thing. [1100] Th at's great to hear. Obviously, we want to encourage any adults in British Columbia who might be watch- Hon. G. Abbott: Just a disclosure off the top. I would ing this to always consider continuing to upgrade their characterize myself as a technopeasant on the scale that schooling because that is essential for them to have a the opposition critic mentioned earlier. better quality of life, and it's better for all of us. I'm glad Th e answer to the question: why web-based? Part of that's been dealt with. the answer here will be…. Member, this may test your Going back to BCeSIS. Could the minister tell us: other technophobia, because the answer to the question would than the cost of the Gartner review, which I think was be: if not web-based, what? Th e opportunity that is pre- around $380,000, have there been other unanticipated sented by a web-based system is that it allows the 42,000 costs? For example, costs that are not included in the or 40,000 teachers and another few thousand adminis- contracts and licensing agreements, which have been trators to input into the system from across the web. Th e borne by the ministry with regards to BCeSIS…. If there alternative to that would be that those 40-some-thousand are, what are these costs, and could the minister please users would be, in the alternative, mailing through snail let me know of a breakdown? mail or e-mail or by…. As Mr. Davis wisely pointed out…. And this reference Hon. G. Abbott: No unanticipated costs other than is my early experience with computers, going into a com- the Gartner review. Also, just to further clarify an ear- puter room at the . Th e computer lier answer. Th e answer is consistent and reinforces the was about the size of this room. I was able to do a really answer I gave earlier about 2012 service plan measures. thoughtful project by having a stack of computer cards Th ey're all the same as 2011 but with an added measure of about this tall that I could feed into the system. It would grade-to-grade transitions — that is, transitions between come back in all kinds of fascinating answers about grades 8, 9, 10 and 11. things. Th at, like me, is a relic of the past, and happily, we have the technology to move on. R. Austin: I'd like to ask a question in a very gener- Th e short answer to the question is that web-based al way around the thought process of fi rst bringing in allowed for the diff use, disparate users of the system in BCeSIS. Similar to the minister, on the continuum be- many locations in British Columbia to have direct input tween a technophobe and a geek, I would be much closer into the system versus some other alternative, which to the technophobe end of the scale. I'm going to try and we're not really aware of, in terms of it being a viable al- put this question in layperson's language. ternative to web-based. Th e decision to be bold and create a system that had never before been designed anywhere in North America, R. Austin: I hope I don't display my technophobia in terms of having a provincewide system…. My ques- here. Th e minister says: if not this system, then what tion is: why was it decided that this had to be web-based? alternative? But this is the only jurisdiction that uses Again speaking in layperson's language, I can under- this system. All the other jurisdictions around North stand, for example, that when someone wants to go on America use an alternative, and presumably, they all and book a fl ight — a seat on Air Canada — you would gather data. Presumably, the alternative would have been have to have a web-based system. Obviously, that seat, to have a program-based system where data would have 11486 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

been gathered, inputted by the school secretary or who- always a fascinating thing to do, whether it's in Education ever. Th en at some point that data would have been gath- estimates or in Health estimates, where one could look ered centrally later, using the Internet just to transfer that at the patient information system that's been developed information. Th at's how a lot of databases work. there and say: "If you'd done X instead of Y, would it have [1105] been more successful?" It goes back to my original question, which is: why It does produce an interesting debate, which obvious- did this have to be web-based and in real time, when ly as minister I'd be delighted to be engaged in. But we presumably there are plenty of programs? Ontario and do things like health information systems or student in- other jurisdictions do this. What it suggests to me is that formation systems because it provides us with a body of a little over ten years ago the government here decided data which can help us make informed public policy de- to be very radical, very bold, and asked for something cisions. How one assembles that body of data…. One can that had never been done before. We then spent quite a always debate whether this system or that system would lot of money — tens of millions of dollars — and until have been more eff ective. recently it didn't work. I think it's fair to say that in the technology that is be- I would argue that even in those ten years, we still ing embraced in these kinds of systems, it does provide don't have an alternative to this web-based system, which for a far better and fuller data set than one could assem- suggests that…. Usually, in technology, if someone is ble otherwise. Again, if we went back ten years and said, fi rst with something and it's very successful and there's "Well, the school districts and the Ministry of Education a market for it…. Presumably, there's a huge market for really should have done something diff erent," it likely this kind of soft ware, because every jurisdiction in North would have involved 60 school districts undertaking 60 America has school districts, and every jurisdiction in diff erent procurement processes and then those 60 dif- North America wants to have more data upon which to ferent school districts each importing their data into a base their decisions. common system. Yet ten years later there hasn't been another web-based One could only speculate — and probably speculate system created. Could the minister comment on that? recklessly — about the cost of doing that versus the cost of what occurred. Th en the subsequent debate would be Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate that the role of the op- about having done that, whether the data set that was position critic is to characterize things in a way that is produced would have been in any way comparable to unfl attering invariably to the government. But it would that provided by BCeSIS. Th ese are without a doubt fas- be inaccurate, and entirely inaccurate, to say that the sys- cinating questions, which I feel remarkably ill-equipped tem didn't work except for the two-week period which to manage but glad to continue to provide the best an- we began this discussion around. Th e system has been swers I can on this. quite stable and quite eff ective. [1110] R. Austin: I now realize that this exchange between a Have there been occasional challenges with it? Yes. technopeasant and technophobe is critical, because I now I think if you look at any system, whether it's with an realize that we're actually speaking about two diff erent airline or a bank or any other institution that went to a things. My question wasn't about whether it should be web-based product as we did in 2002, one would have Internet-based. It's about whether there should have been also found that over time they required attention and a browser open — in other words, in real time. upgrades and those kinds of things. Why could we not have had a system where the data Again, I'm certain that we are going to hear at some was all collected by each school district, but not with a point a powerful renunciation of the public policy behind browser open, and then that information sent at a later this, and I'll look forward to that. But I don't accept the date, as opposed to the complexity of having it done in critic's suggestion that it didn't work. It's not true. real time with the web browser open, which of course Ten years later, our understanding is that in the U.S. created all the problems as multiple teachers all tried to there are a number of cities and states that have already get on at the same time? gone to web-based reporting, and there are many others If it had been Internet-based but not in real time, then that are in the process of moving there if they're not al- that would still have enabled the ministry to get all the in- ready there. We believe that to be the case in other prov- formation it needs, which is what most school districts…. inces as well, but we'll follow up on that work and report I mean, the minister just mentioned that a lot of the back to the member a little bit later when we can perhaps school districts in the States now have gone to Internet- give a more comprehensive assessment of what's occur- based systems. Of course. But then none of them are in ring elsewhere in Canada. real time. I think that is what has brought a lot of the chal- It's always tempting to say: "Let's go back ten years in lenges to BCeSIS. So let's go back to that question and history, and if we had done X instead of Y, the world as see the diff erence between what I've just spoken about. we know it would have been a much better place." Th at's [1115] Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11487

Hon. G. Abbott: My puzzlement with respect to the you, because I think that decision has created a lot of the browser option is widely shared by those who would problems. I'm not trying to exaggerate them, but I'm sure advise me at this point in time. I'm certain the member that the minister in his travels…. Especially if he'd be- must have been advised by someone who has swallowed come the Minister of Education earlier than he did and a computer book at some point and has interesting ques- had gone around to school districts, he'd have heard a lot tions in relation to that. of complaints over a period of seven or eight years about What we understand, just so we're clear on the point…. this system consistently not working properly. Had it not Ontario, as an example, is in the process of developing been in real time, I think a lot of those problems would what they call OnSIS, which is the Ontario school infor- have been taken away. Anyway, I'll let the minister com- mation system, very much like British Columbia's. In ment on that. fact, we understand it to be dead similar to what…. It'll My next question is on moving forward. Th e minis- be a web-based application which integrates and collects ter has mentioned the RFI. Can the minister tell us what board, school, student, educator, course and class data. So money has been allocated with regard to procurement of it's a comprehensive system. New data will be stored in a replacement for BCeSIS, and is there a budget for the a consolidated database rather than in isolated systems annual costs of a new system going forward? Perhaps the as it currently is in Ontario. Our understanding is that minister would tell us, as the system is now stable and they are very much moving to the model that we have. working, if indeed it's the government's decision now to In terms of where we go from here with BCeSIS, we've stay with BCeSIS. gone for a request for expressions of interests. It may be [1125] that vendors will come back with — Lord knows — even browser options, whatever the heck that means. For me, Hon. G. Abbott: Th e member asked a number of ques- browsing is out foraging in the woods. Browsing I know tions in his previous question. We'll start with the little means something very diff erent in this context, but I Johnny question — little Johnny in Salmon Arm. I do ap- know the member will struggle with my technopeasant- preciate the member bringing it home for me, so to speak. ry and pose the question in another way. Hopefully, we It's very good. Th ank you. can try to get him the answer to the important question. Th e fi rst point would be this. Th e data is going to have to be gathered one way or another. It can be gathered at R. Austin: Th e diff erence between inputting the data multiple points, or it can be gathered at those points and within a browser means that it is in real time. Okay? As then taken to another location and then input. But one the person is putting the information in — say a secretary way or another, it's going to be gathered. is putting in a school list showing who is in school that I think the value, from the little Johnny perspective in day that just came down from the teacher's classroom — Salmon Arm Elementary School, is that the input comes Mr. Gorman or anybody else will know instantaneously in. If the principal or vice-principal needs to make some whether little Johnny in Salmon Arm wasn't in school decision, they have reference to that data that has been that morning. gathered. If it's not in real time, if it's not within a browser, then Similarly, on a broader scale with the real-time that information is collated by the school secretary. She input, the ability of decision-makers in the system…. inputs the data, and when she presses the send button, it Whether they happen to be the principal in Salmon goes at a later point. Arm Elementary or an assistant deputy minister at the Th e diff erence between these two systems is, of course, Ministry of Education or the superintendent of school that you don't have to have 50,000 people on that system district 83, they have that material assembled in, we be- simultaneously. Th ey can all be putting it in and pressing lieve, a more eff ective way than one would in a less ele- the send buttons at a diff erent time, and that information gant system where things were gathered and brought arrives later. Th at goes to my original question of why it together at a central point and then input by a school had to be in real time. secretary, as the member suggested. [1120] I'm not sure I can give a better answer to that at this I don't see why it has to be in real time, because un- point. I do think, to the member's claim that we're the like, for example, Air Canada, which would have a big only ones in North America doing this, that it doesn't problem if Mr. Davis was buying a seat on Air Canada appear to be so. In fact, it appears that pretty much all while the Clerk here was also competing for that same of North America is moving precisely in this direction. seat, and they pressed the send button at the same time. Provided you can manage, in the system, all of those Who would get that seat? Th at's not the case with data for many users, it makes a lot of sense to do precisely that school-based systems. Th at's why I was asking the ques- — to have the immediate opportunity to input the data, tion as to why it was decided to go to real time. I'm told whether it's little Johnny's attendance or his marks or that this was not necessary. whatever it may happen to be. I'd still like you to comment or for the staff to assist [1130] 11488 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 3, 2012

Th at relates to, I think, the fi nal question the member ister's defence of doing this all in real time, is that even asked, which is: "Are you going to stay with BCeSIS?" Ontario is actually going to be creating a system which Th e answer to that is no. BCeSIS is nearing its life's end, will collect all the information in the same way that just like Windows 98, which I'm sure we all remember BCeSIS does, but in fact it will not be in real time. Th at's with enormous aff ection. I know I do, personally. When what this suggests. I could be wrong. I'm getting a nod Windows 98 left , it was like an old dog dying. I felt very of disagreement here. Maybe I'm misinterpreting that. bad about that. I'm certain I'll feel the same way about We've probably discussed whether it should be real BCeSIS when that occurs. Nevertheless, we know that it time or not long enough now. Th e minister has indicated has its life end coming. that we're going to have a replacement for BCeSIS. With So maintaining it is not an option. Pearson have said all due respect, I don't think that his suggested name is that beyond 2014, this is not a product that they will a good one. I think this is one of those opportunities maintain further. So we are working with all of our part- where rebranding…. ners in the 60 school districts to try to identify what the [1135] right way to go is on what I happily and aff ectionately Sometimes when you rebrand a name of something call Son of BCeSIS. I don't know whether that's the right that's in the toilet or doesn't have a great value…. Th ere term or not, but it brings a smile to the faces of all the are certain instances where it's time to rebrand. I would public servants who have the remarkable experience of suggest that here is one of those opportunities, where working with me. So I say Son of BCeSIS. BCeSIS sometimes creates a bit of a shudder amongst We've gone to a request for interest, RFI. It appears that teachers because of the experience they've gone through out of that RFI, we will identify a series of venders who over the number of years. I'm sure that a brand-new will have an interest in off ering us up a product, a com- name would give them greater confi dence that this new bination of hardware and soft ware and service, that can system was going to be working perfectly. provide for that replacement system to BCeSIS. One of the happy things about technology — again, Hon. G. Abbott: You should think about that for this comes from, I acknowledge, the mouth of a techno- broader government. peasant — whether it happens to be computers or tele- visions or other things, is that the cost of technology R. Austin: Well, you know, that sometimes works. Not generally has come down as the eff ectiveness of that tech- always, but it sometimes does. nology has gone up. I'd like to ask, in regards to the request for informa- I mentioned earlier in our discussion my experience tion…. Th is calls for the vender that will provide hosting with the computer at the University of Victoria around services in addition to the application. Would this cre- about probably 1976-77, going in and just being in a ate a requirement for the ministry to terminate its con- room with an absolutely massive computer, the cost of tract with Fujitsu early? And if that were the case, would which, I'm sure, was a staggering fi gure and the power of there be any cost to the ministry in terms of getting rid which is probably less than Mr. Davis's BlackBerry today of the contract? I understand that contract was signed in terms of the things it could do and the ease with which for fi ve years. it could do them. So as we move to a contemporary system in, say, Hon. G. Abbott: A few elements in the discussion. I 2014, it is going to have, I'm sure, an amazing capacity know I share the member's, I think, happiness at mov- and reach well beyond anything that could have been ing on from a detailed discussion around browser ver- dreamed of with the original BCeSIS back in 2002. sus non-browser options in computer systems. But a Th e other happy part of it is that with the cost of these couple of things should be noted, and these are actually things coming down, we expect that for approximately important. the same cost that we have for technology today, which In terms of OnSIS, what Ontario is developing, we is around $10½ million, we will be able to enjoy better, do exactly the same thing in terms of gathering, storing, more modern, etc., technology than we have today. depersonalizing, etc. All of that is done. Th e argument which the member advanced — that that may mean they R. Austin: Again, I don't want to go on with this de- are using a non-browser versus browser option — is not bate about whether it should be in real time or not. It is necessarily so. But given the importance of this issue, we interesting to note. I'm told that on the website of the will attempt to fi nd that out from the province of Ontario. Ministry of Education in Ontario, they refer to this new I do accept the member's suggestion that rebranding system that they're creating, OnSIS. Th ey say that OnSIS from something other than Son of BCeSIS might be ap- will integrate and collect data at the elemental level. "Th is propriate. Again, this is why people are successful in pol- data is subsequently stored, integrated and depersonal- itics. It's that kind of intuitive sense of when to move on ized in the elementary-secondary data warehouse." from a name and not to move on. So I do appreciate the What that suggests, with all due respect to the min- member's advice in that regard, and we'll take it very ser- Thursday, May 3, 2012 British Columbia Debates 11489

iously. I think it's leading me to reconsider whether Son database where everyone is trying to get into. Would of BCeSIS is the perfect way to describe the new system. that have been helpful? As you put out the RFI to try and I think he's absolutely right on that point. learn from some of the mistakes that have come about In terms of real time…. Th is may be the last, and in a from BCeSIS, is that something that the minister or the way I'm sorry that I've saved this most-compelling argu- ministry staff are looking at — splitting up the databases? ment for real time to this point in time, but I've just been [1145] reminded of it. We went through — as the member, I'm sure, would recall with the same clarity that I do — a ma- Hon. G. Abbott: We believe the debate around region- jor scare in the health care world around the H1N1 virus. al versus central databases is really a question that is [1140] no longer relevant. The challenge of managing large What we were able to do with the real-time data of all amounts of gathered data has been conquered. Th ere is the little Johnnys and Sues coming to school during that really no issue anymore in terms of management or stor- H1N1 crisis…. We knew on a daily basis how many kids age — those issues. were at school and how many were absent for a reason A couple of examples in terms of the new technol- of illness. ogy versus the old technology. It's now possible for We were able to pass on that information on a daily TicketMaster, when they announce there is going to be basis to the provincial health offi cer. He was able to util- a U2 concert in Vancouver…. It may be that 200,000 ize that data in conjunction with the health authorities people will come on line immediately, seeking those tick- to make decisions around public policy in relation to ets. Generally, the hardware and soft ware that's now as- H1N1. For example, a school closure might be prompt- sembled for that purpose can manage it. ed by a spike in the number of students who are away Another example. I do know the member shares my from school. absolute passion for Dancing with the Stars. I know that Th at, I think, is a real and pretty compelling example of immediately aft er the performances every night he goes where that real-time data was utilized for very good pur- on line, as I do, to support our favourite stars on Dancing pose. In terms of Fujitsu…. Th e work that is being done with the Stars. in respect of the RFI does contemplate a transition per- When we do that, we join literally millions of other iod, and it contemplates a period or a provision fi rst for Americans and Canadians and maybe even an audience the integration or transition and then the handoff of the internationally. I don't know. But there will be many who system. Th ere is no incremental cost anticipated. will be joining us, in the immediate period aft er the brief summary of the dances that have been assembled that R. Austin: I think I'll ask one more question prior to evening, to go on line and vote for our favourite. Again, the break, and then we'll come back aft erwards. that's technology at work — being able to manage literally Let's set aside the whole debate about whether it had millions of inputs at one time. to be in real time, and let's perhaps ask the question this We believe, again, as we're looking at the new world, a way. In terms of the storage of all this data, could the new system that no longer has a name — formerly known minister tell us whether it would be better for there to as the Son of BCeSIS but no longer, having been persuad- be regional databases that allow the information that ed that it is no longer a good branded name for us to util- was pertinent to the student, the local administrator, the ize…. Whatever that new system is, it will be capable of teacher and the parent to have access to in real time, and managing that database. only the administrative details that are needed, essential- With that, I move the committee rise, report progress ly, by the ministry down here to make the broad decisions and ask leave to sit again. that have consequences for the whole education system? Again, if there were regional databases, then presum- Motion approved. ably there wouldn't be the same stress on the system of everything being collected and coming into one central Th e committee rose at 11:48 a.m.

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