First Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 6, Number 3

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

First Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna–Lake Country...... Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes...... Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Heed, Hon. Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster...... Dawn Black Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Tributes...... 1679 Hon. G. Campbell M. Farnworth J. McIntyre

Introductions by Members...... 1679

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 1680 Wigs for Kids program L. Reid Colleen McCrory and Valhalla Wilderness Society K. Conroy Bruce's Country Market M. Dalton Rain forest protection in Incomappleux Valley M. Sather Olympic Torch Relay in Comox Valley D. McRae Valhalla Wilderness Society rain forest hiking tour G. Gentner

Oral Questions...... 1682 Hosting of Olympic Games dignitaries at Terminal City Club K. Corrigan Hon. I. Black R. Fleming B. Ralston M. Farnworth Distribution of GamesTown 2010 Olympic Games tickets V. Huntington Hon. I. Black Waiting times for surgeries in B.C. A. Dix Hon. K. Falcon J. Horgan Early intervention program for children with autism M. Karagianis Hon. M. Polak M. Elmore Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 1687 Bill 17 — Health Statutes (Residents' Bill of Rights) Amendment Act, 2009 (continued) M. Karagianis L. Krog N. Macdonald G. Coons K. Corrigan A. Dix G. Gentner C. Trevena N. Letnick M. Sather V. Huntington H. Lali B. Routley D. Routley H. Bains D. Hayer Hon. I. Chong

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 1724 Estimates: Ministry of Housing and Social Development (continued) S. Simpson Hon. R. Coleman S. Herbert 1679

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2009 was sensitive and generous and had a wicked sense of humour and sense of play. The House met at 1:35 p.m. He was one of my closest friends, especially at the time that I had the privilege of being his riding president [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] for six years, and trying to manage him was an amazing and memorable challenge. Routine Business As the Premier noted, he served as the first minister responsible for the 2010 games, and I'm so very sorry Prayers. that he will not be here to see the flame lit in Vancouver in February 2010. I know that his spirit will be with us. Tributes I also know that he worked very hard on the Community Charter, something that has a lasting effect TED NEBBELING in the province. He's a man well deserving of tributes. Our hearts go out to his partner, his beloved partner Hon. G. Campbell: I rise today to pay tribute to a Jan Holmberg, as he begins to deal with his deep loss. I colleague and a friend of many of us in this chamber. just want to assure Jan that we'll all be there with him. The former mayor of Whistler, the former MLA for West Vancouver–Garibaldi, passed away this morning after a Introductions by Members long bout with cancer. As those of you who knew him would know, Ted was a M. Mungall: Well, when I first started, I didn't think passionate and committed public servant. As the mayor I'd be introducing so many guests from my constituency of Whistler, he actually watched and helped guide that as it's so far away from Victoria. But today I'd like to community to a world-class resort centre recognized introduce to the House Sheila Haegadorn. She's come all around the world for the quality of its lifestyle and the the way from Kaslo, B.C. Please make her welcome. quality of its community. He was dedicated to his province and to his town. He E. Foster: I rise today to introduce four constituents was the minister of state for the 2010 Winter Olympic of mine. Maria Doyle, Debbie Taylor, Jody Berry and and Paralympic Games bid following the election in 2001 Cory Fryer are visiting the House today from the city of and travelled all around the world to try and ensure that Vernon. They are in Victoria as members of the staff of we were successful in attaining that bid. the city attending the workshops for local government It is, I think, sometimes difficult for all of us to remember professional administrators. They've enjoyed their stay that we all are mortal in this world. It's hard to believe that in Victoria and are here in the House today to see how a someone that had the energy, the capacity and the real different level of government works. I ask the House to joy of life, like Ted did, has left our midst.I know that he make them very welcome. was the first sitting cabinet minister to marry a same-sex partner. I'm sure his partner Jan will miss him greatly, as J. Rustad: As with the member for Nelson-Creston, will his family, as will his friends and as will all of us. it's not often you get the chance to introduce people that He made a huge contribution to his province and come from your riding. Today I have the pleasure of made the world a little bit better and little bit brighter introducing two people in the House, Navi Bhatti and for all of us. I hope that we would send our condolences Amy Green. to Jan and the entire family. [1340] Navi is from the community of Houston. Both of them M. Farnworth: We on this side of the House would like are here attending the University of Victoria. Navi is also to join with the Premier in extending our condolences the president of the Education Students Association at to Jan, Ted's partner. The Premier very eloquently said UVic. that Ted brought an energy to this House. All of us in We had a great opportunity to go for lunch today and this chamber, myself and a number of my colleagues have a chat, and she left me with a quote thatI would like who served with him back in the '90s will miss him. We to share with the House. This is fromE leanor Roosevelt. join with the Premier in sending condolences to Ted's "You gain strength, courage and confidence by every family and his partner. experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the things you think you cannot do." J. McIntyre: I'd also like to add just a few words of Mr. Speaker and the House, please make Navi and tribute to Ted Nebbeling, who was my predecessor Amy welcome. and my friend. He was a self-made man, a successful entrepreneur and a fighter right to the end, and he had Hon. K. Falcon: Today in the galleries we have a many supporters and friends all around the world. He couple of pharmacy students who are currently doing 1680 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

their four-week rotation at the drug use optimization They are always looking for help with this, and branch of the pharmaceutical services division. I'd like the projects are very important to countless British the House to welcome Cesilia Nishi and Jerrold Perrott, Columbia families. There are challenging issues, no who are both with us today. question. The leader of this group is Bev Friesen, and she would absolutely welcome a call from any one of Hon. S. Thomson: Mr. Speaker, I'd like you to join me you. Please stay in touch. in welcoming four representatives from the B.C. Fruit Growers Association, who are here in Victoria today: COLLEEN McCRORY AND the president, Joe Sardinha from Summerland; their VALHALLA WILDERNESS SOCIETY vice-president Kirpal Boparai, who is from my riding in Kelowna-Mission; Glen Lucas, their general manager; K. Conroy: The Valhalla Wilderness Society was and Josée Larocque, their communications director. founded in 1975 in New Denver in the Slocan Valley. This is the association that represents those growers It started as a group of local residents who wanted to that bring us those great B.C. apples, cherries and soft save the forested slopes of the Valhalla mountain range fruits. I'd like the House to join me in making them from logging. After an intensive eight-year campaign, welcome. Valhalla Provincial Park was won. The registered charity became involved in other prov- Statements incial, national and international environmental pro- (Standing Order 25B) jects. Valhalla has spearheaded campaigns that now protect over 1.25 million acres. Over the years, its board WIGS FOR KIDS PROGRAM of directors and staff has included a diverse mixture of scientific expertise, political strategists, public spokes- L. Reid: I would like today to dedicate this statement persons, and literary and artistic talent. to Ted Nebbeling, because it would have made him Colleen McCrory was one of the society's chief activists smile. Ted was my daughter's godfather, and I can tell and its longtime chairperson, who passed away sud- you he was absolutely enchanting in that role. denly in July of 2007. Colleen was recognized for her The title of the statement is "Wigs forK ids." The Wigs work with many awards, both national and international. for Kids program, British Columbia Children's Hospital, However, one of the lasting legacies of her work was was started in January 2006 by Bev Friesen and 11 other the securing of the Valhalla Mile property. Thanks to a women known as the Ya-yas. huge outpouring of public support and donations from They fundraise year-round for monetary or silent auction across Canada and internationally, the Valhalla Mile — donations, and every spring they hold an annual Wigs a mile of beachfront property on the west side of Slocan for Kids silent auction. This is their major fundraiser, Lake — was successfully purchased and transferred to with all the funds going to the purchase of wigs for kids from all over British Columbia who have lost their hair B.C. Parks in April of 2009, becoming part of Valhalla to cancer or other serious illnesses. Provincial Park. At any given time in British Columbia, there are 300 The Valhalla Foundation for Ecology and Social children receiving treatment and another 1,200 in long- Justice, the Land Conservancy of B.C. and B.C. Parks term treatment. In many cases, these kids will suffer tem- worked jointly to raise the $1.5 million needed to secure porary or permanent hair loss. The children go through the property from a private land owner. The addition of an extremely difficult time, and it's even tougher when the Valhalla Mile to Colleen's favourite park is a tribute they lose their hair. to her memory and to her outstanding dedication to the Kids may be healthy enough to go back to school, but conservation of the natural world. their life has changed. Other kids and even some adults [1345] can be uncomfortable with side effects like baldness. A The campaign to secure the Valhalla Mile was coordin- wig can help those children resume a sense of normalcy ated in Colleen's memory by her brother and colleague when they return to everyday life. Their baldness is a Wayne McCrory and his wife and fellow conservation question that they then don't have to answer. activist, Lorna Visser. "To protect the Valhalla Mile and Any child who has suffered hair loss is eligible to have it added to the park was one of Colleen's dreams, receive a wig fully paid for if they so wish. Each wig so this acquisition gives us great joy," said Wayne costs approximately $2,000, but this cost drops to $600 McCrory. or $800 if the hair is donated. On July 1 in New Denver a celebration was held to Colleagues, I'm calling upon you. Hair must be at mark this historic event, with supporters in attendance least eight inches long and chemically untreated. I wel- from across the province. It was indeed a tribute to the come donations of hair. Please call my office for more work of an incredible person and all of the people who information. are the Valhalla Society. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1681

BRUCE'S COUNTRY MARKET Scientists believe that the upper Incomappleux forest is thousands of years older than its oldest trees. It is still M. Dalton: For generations, travellers driving along the great unknown. Although there has been minimal the Lougheed Highway in Maple Ridge have stopped at a research in the Incomappleux to date, already scientists familiar landmark, Bruce's Country Market, with its dis- have discovered nine species of plants not known to tinct fishing schooner lodged next to it. Bruce's Market occur anywhere else in the world. was opened in 1948 by Bruce and Elnora McEachern Incredibly, probably due to its obscurity, the upper and is still owned by the McEachern family. Of the 70 Incomappleux Valley is not protected by any park, pro- employees, 16 are part of the extended family, and the tected area or land use plan. The Incomappleux is the rest are virtually adopted, calling Bruce and Elnora Ma crown jewel of the inland temperate rain forest. It is not and Pa. replicated elsewhere. To lose it would be unforgivable. When it opened 61 years ago, the local board of trade I invite all members to visit this ancient forest. Let's said that it wouldn't last six months because it was too work together to ensure that our grandchildren and far out of town. It seems like they proved the pundits their grandchildren can do the same. wrong. Bruce's Market is the salmon retail outlet for its fleet of ten gill-net boats, a processing plant and smoke- OLYMPIC TORCH RELAY houses. There's also a produce department, a gift section IN COMOX VALLEY and a large deli. Bruce's Market holds regular events like the fall Apple D. McRae: You can feel the excitement and buzz in Fest, when 100 varieties of apples are sold. Country the Comox Valley already. In fact, we've been anticipat- bands play while friends socialize over gourmet food. ing this moment for quite some time now, and I'm not On Mother's Day, Spring Fest is held, featuring their talking about the first snowfall at Mount Washington. specialty: wild salmon, barbecued or smoked. I'm talking about the upcoming 2010 Olympic Torch When I asked Darrel McEachern what the key to Relay. success was for all these years, he said that it was serv- [1350] ing people what they needed at the time. The business The torch will be arriving in my constituency on has seen lots of variation and sidelines, including sell- Monday, November 2. Communities, organizations and ing washers and dryers for a time. He said that people countless volunteers have been working tirelessly to today are looking for a specialty food experience that is ready events for this exciting day. On Monday morning organic, convenient and delicious. Bruce's Market does the torch will arrive in Fanny Bay — you might have not disappoint. heard of their famous oysters — and travel through On September 17 a final goodbye was said for Bruce, the historic coal port of Union Bay and the former who died at the age of 89 years old. Today I pay tribute logging town of Royston. It will then be welcomed in to this man devoted to his family, faith and customers. Cumberland by local singers and dancers. Maple Ridge is a better place because of him. Torchbearers will then carry on to Courtenay for a community celebration in Lewis Park. The torch will be RAIN FOREST PROTECTION welcomed by aboriginal tribal dancers, and several com- IN INCOMAPPLEUX VALLEY munity choirs and dance groups will perform, includ- ing True Colours and Dance Medley. The torch will then M. Sather: Most British Columbians are aware that leave Courtenay, stopping by the traditional big house the west coast of our province is a rain forest. However, of the Comox First Nation where it will be blessed. The not that many know that we also have an extensive inland torch will then travel to the town of Comox, then passing temperate rain forest in southeastern British Columbia. through CFB Comox and the farming communities of I recently had the pleasure of visiting the Incomappleux Merville and Black Creek on its way to Campbell River. Valley, a place I will never forget. The upperI ncomappleux People in my community are excited and honoured to is an ancient and truly magnificent ecosystem. I stood host these events. Not only is it a great way to embrace beside its massive red cedars, 12 feet in diameter and the Olympic spirit and support our athletes; it's an oppor- 1,800 years old. I saw western hemlocks as large as those tunity for individuals and families to get together and found on the coast. I saw huge white pines, larger than celebrate their community. We are lucky to live in one of I've ever seen in my years as a biologist in B.C. the most beautiful places in all of British Columbia, and We walked by trees that had been recently rubbed by what a way to showcase both B.C. and the Comox Valley the grizzly bear, leaving his telltale silvertip hair behind. to the rest of the world. We searched massive tree cavities looking for early-den- At this time I would like to recognize the amazing ning black bears. We followed the trail of the mountain work done by the chair of the torch committee, Marilyn caribou, who feed on the abundant lichens of the forest Tevington, and the other members of the torch com- in early winter. mittee who have worked so hard to make this event a 1682 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

success: Randy Wiwchar, Ron Weber, Ken Grant, Don Oral Questions Larson, Leslie Baird, Marty Douglas, John Watson, Kirk McFarlane, Alan Douglas, Leo Richards and the RCMP HOSTING OF OLYMPIC GAMES detachment of the Comox Valley. DIGNITARIES AT TERMINAL CITY CLUB I ask the House to join me in wishing the Comox Valley and all communities across Canada the best of K. Corrigan: New documents reveal the government luck with their upcoming torch relay events. has spent half a million dollars to entertain select guests at Vancouver's Terminal City Club during the 2010 VALHALLA WILDERNESS SOCIETY games. My question is to the Premier. During a time RAIN FOREST HIKING TOUR when the government is cutting funds for kids' sports, hospitals and schools, why is it spending hundreds of G. Gentner: I want to follow up what my colleagues thousands of dollars at one of the most expensive venues have said about the Valhalla Wilderness Society and our in Vancouver without public knowledge? excursion to the Incomappleux headwaters about 12 days ago. Hon. I. Black: If you look at the Olympic logo, it says: As a city slicker I knew, when the member for Maple "British Columbia, host province." That logo says it all. Ridge–Pitt Meadows and one of our guides compared [1355] their grizzly mauling scars — and the fact that I was one Our job is to host this $4 billion revenue-generating trek member who didn't carry any bear mace — that spectacular event, and that means we will host inter- this venture could become exhilarating. During our national dignitaries. It means we will host community hike between the headwaters and the isolated ancient and national leaders. It means we will host international rain forest, one of our team members took a tumble off investors and leading academics from around the world. a fallen tree. At about 3:30 she had dislocated her elbow This is our opportunity. and had a spiral fracture in her right tibia. We have a job to do. It's to show the world the very best It was raining, and in an hour the dank, wet forest was of British Columbia, and we're going to do just that. going to get darker. While the injured party received first aid treatment by my esteemed colleague, two Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. members hiked down to our base camp for a stretcher, thermal bag and blankets. By 5:30 we began our slippery K. Corrigan: Well, it's an opportunity for a lot of pri- descent. vate parties, it sounds like to me. It took the full team to assist. Along hazardous terrain, two Last week we learned that close to a million dollars members were harnessed at both ends of the stretcher had been spent on taxpayer-funded luxury box suites while two more were on the other side steadying and for B.C. Liberal MLAs and their friends. It took an FOI propping up the poles, and two others were there for request… navigating purposes. While the slender, lankier MLA took his place in the Interjections. front harnessed, the pudgier fellow took up the rear, weighted down with the others' backpacks and flash- Mr. Speaker: Members. light in hand, sometimes crawling on hand and knee, instructing team members on their footing on rocks, K. Corrigan: …after question period before the gov- stumps, snags and up and over massive logs. ernment agreed to come clean. We inched our way step by step over a long precipice This week it's half a million dollars to "entertain to the river canyon below us. It took us more than three business representatives and foreign dignitaries at an hours to reach our all-terrain vehicles, which then elite private club in Vancouver." Again, how did the carried us over boulders and debris from avalanches, B.C. Liberals justify spending millions of tax dollars to through washouts and partial bridges. By ten o'clock our entertain a select few without any public oversight or injured party was admitted to Nakusp hospital. accountability? I would like to thank our guides, forester Craig, bear biologist Wayne, lichenologist Toby, guide and mountain Hon. I. Black: This is about economic development. hostel owner Pat and, at the base camp, Ruel for their It is about economic development, which means one has skill and poise during a mishap that could have been to be able to do economic development. It means you disastrous. They were experienced, ready and equipped. want to do…. Today Ann is recovering from her injuries, but her and the members of the Valhalla Wilderness Society's Interjections. resolve is stronger than ever to protect this ancient rain forest. Mr. Speaker: Members. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1683

Just take your seat for a second, Minister. But you know what? That same excitement is felt in the venues where we've got the opportunity to play host. Interjections. They're not just limited to the Terminal City Club, a venue that is needed for its size. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Oh yes, it's also at B.C.-Canada Pavilion, one of the Continue, Minister. most exciting and energizing areas. We will invite that member and all British Columbians to B.C.-Canada Hon. I. Black: Now, I know the opposition has been Pavilion, which has been the showplace of excitement against the games and continues to be against the games and opportunity at the last two Winter Olympic Games all the way through. That part is not new. It's not new and which will be at this one as well. to this side of the House. It's not new to the people of British Columbia, who I suspect are enormously dis- Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. appointed in that stance, but nonetheless. This is about economic development, which means R. Fleming: You know, taxpayers might have a little it's about doing business. When you do business, you more respect for this government if they got an explanation, generate taxes which, if I may point out the obvious, if they got information about how government is spending generate the ability to deliver health care and education the money. Right now they're getting an explanation to the record levels that we are in this province. from this government about why kids' sports are being So yes, we need facilities to host people in business. cancelled in British Columbia — because there's no We have the opportunity to have one of the most cen- money — and why health care services are being cancelled trally located business-hosting venues in Vancouver, the — because there's no money in British Columbia. Terminal City Club. The minister should tell the House today, if he has a But do you know what, Mr. Speaker? It doesn't stop plan for how this Terminal City Club hosting business is there, and I'll tell you more in a minute. going to provide value to British Columbians, why other British Columbians should go without public services Interjections. while this kind of activity is going on, and then table that plan in the Legislature. Mr. Speaker: Members. The question for the minister is: will he do that today? Will he show who's coming to dinner and why and what R. Fleming: My question is for the new minister purpose it's serving for the people of British Columbia? for the Olympics. Last week his colleague the former Minister of State for the Olympics admitted in this Interjections. House that she had no plan whatsoever for almost a million dollars in luxury suites and luxury box tickets Mr. Speaker: Members. that were going to be handed out to government MLAs and their friends — no plan. She admitted she had no Interjections. plan until it was raised in this House, and the damage control was undertaken over the coming days after Mr. Speaker: We're not going to continue, Members. that. Will the minister, or whoever, stand in this place today Hon. I. Black: Well, there are 250,000 people coming, and tell us why, if this is such a good way to conduct and they're coming for more than dinner. business, the government is conducting business and You know, the member speaks of the expectations of giving out a large untendered contract worth $500,000 British Columbians. Well, I can tell you that British that puts more food and drink in the friends of the gov- Columbians expect us to leverage the greatest oppor- ernment — in their mouths? tunity that we've seen in economic development in a [1400] generation, and we plan to do that. But you know what? It's not just British Columbia. Hon. I. Black: Clearly, the member is not familiar Every province in this country is setting up pavilions in with team sports, because it takes a big team on this side British Columbia because they recognize the opportunity. of the House and across this province to put on one of The part of it that may be instructive to the members the best events that this province has ever seen. opposite is that that also includes the NDP province of I don't know if the member has had the opportunity Manitoba. They understand. to look out onto the front lawn and see the excitement that's building for the torch event that's coming this Interjections. Friday, but the excitement's building, and everybody seems to understand that. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. 1684 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Hon. I. Black: There's not a jurisdiction in the world you'd put something like this out to tender. So can the that wouldn't give its eye teeth to host the Olympic minister tell us why the contract was not put out to Games. We're proud it's us, and we plan to take full tender? It's straightforward. advantage of it. Hon. I. Black: I accept the fact that the members Interjections. opposite don't understand the benefits associated with the games. Most British Columbians seem to get it, but Mr. Speaker: Just wait, Member. so does the vibrant small business community in British Members. Columbia. Let me express…. Because the member comes from a community that's got some fantastic small B. Ralston: Will the minister explain why this half- businesses, in the middle of Small Business Month let million-dollar contract was not tendered? me shamelessly take advantage of that to tell you the [1405] small businesses that are benefiting from the Olympic Games. Hon. I. Black: The NDP's approach to this situation How Canadian is this? Blade Pro Products Inc. of is absolutely shocking. You are going to be seeing, in 107 Vancouver has got the contract for a licence agreement short days, the best and brightest athletes in the world, to produce branded hockey blade tape, and they're but also the best and brightest investors, researchers, going to use this to accelerate their goal of becoming the scientists and potential customers of British Columbia number one way to tape a hockey stick. products and services coming right here to British The Olympic Games are affecting the small business Columbia. Yes, indeed. community as well. Our job is to open the door, not to close it. We saw for ten long years what happens when you close the door to DISTRIBUTION OF GAMESTOWN 2010 business, when you close the door to opportunity and OLYMPIC GAMES TICKETS when you close the door to jobs. My goodness, there is nothing like the Olympic Games to open a door, and V. Huntington: My opportunity now being here. we're opening it widely. Last week the Minister of State for the Olympics told this House that the Olympic secretariat had purchased Interjections. 3,000 tickets to the 2010 games. Of the 3,000 tickets, she stated that the communities will be receiving some of Mr. Speaker: Members. these tickets through GamesTown 2010. The member has a supplemental. My particular interest was piqued when she added: "We have members from Delta South. We have tickets B. Ralston: Will the minister explain why this half- to Delta North." million-dollar contract was not tendered? However, on the GamesTown 2010 website, there is no mention of Delta winning any tickets, no mention of Hon. I. Black: There are some great venues in downtown any community that won tickets. What it does say is that Vancouver where we plan to do some hosting. We've 600 communities participated in an early-bird draw for talked about the Terminal City Club — a venue which, 24 pairs of tickets — 24 pairs. incidentally, is one of the few venues of its size that can [1410] accommodate the vast majority of the larger events that We also know that the average value of the secretar- we plan to host. iat tickets is $300. However, the minister informed the But beyond having the B.C.-Canada Pavilion, we're House that the GamesTown 2010 tickets were valued also welcoming the world to Robson Square to see the from $20 to $200. B.C. Showcase. We're welcoming them to the Asia-Pacific My question is to, I guess, the Minister of Economic Centre, a venue that's very close to Robson Square. Development. Can he please advise all the members of For years the Asia-Pacific Centre has been doing the House which of the ridings among the so small list of precisely what the Olympic Games represent, which 24 communities have been recipients of the GamesTown is saying to the world, "Come to us, invest here, create tickets? Can he tell the House how many tickets in total opportunities here and create jobs here," and that's what are being distributed to the communities, and can he we're going to do. explain why the secretariat is not sharing the more valuable tickets with the communities of B.C.? M. Farnworth: The question was pretty straight- forward. We don't need the boosterism speech. We just Hon. I. Black: The distribution of whatever Olympic want to know what 4½ million British Columbians want tickets are touched by government will be fully accounted to know, which is…. Good business practice thinks for. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1685

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Not only that, we have seen the volumes of hip and knee surgeries over doubled, to over 12,000 operations V. Huntington: The minister and my colleagues that are performed annually in British Columbia. That might be interested in knowing that there are only 80 is a record level that we never even got close to under an tickets available through GamesTown 2010. That's 40 NDP government. pairs of tickets to the 600 communities that have applied Here is the thing. Because of this and because of the for them. investments we've made, we actually are in the situation Meanwhile, there are volunteers in my riding and in where other provinces, including , are every riding in this House who have for several years saying to us: "With the innovations you've made, the given their time and energy to the Spirit of B.C. program, investments you've made…. We've got wait-lists. Could promoting and championing the Olympics within their you help us?" communities. Moreover, there are former Olympians I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker. We ought to be proud that in Delta South that have not, unbelievably, been offered other provinces are looking to B.C.'s leadership and tickets to the very event they embody, the very event looking at ways that they can also help their wait-lists that wouldn't exist without them. and deal with the excellent services, excellent facilities Will the minister commit today to offering some of the and excellent doctors we have in the province of British 3,000 secretariat tickets both to B.C.'s former Olympians Columbia. and to the dedicated Spirit of 2010 volunteers? [1415]

Hon. I. Black: There's no doubt that the Olympic Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Games are for all British Columbians. The government's job, as we get ready for this exciting event, involves a A. Dix: I know the Minister of Health is operating with- lot of different activities. Part of it involves running the out a binder today, but the fact of the matter is that if he's contest that the member opposite has discussed and on the distribution lists for the cuts in surgeries announced making people from across the province feel as though in Fraser Health, the cuts in surgeries announced in they are very much a part of this great event and that Vancouver Coastal Health and Vancouver Island Health, they will benefit as a result. he gets all those notes. In fact, he approved them — We have, through the efforts of our government, got 10,000 surgeries cut. Those are only the announcements a great hosting program planned to reach out to those so far — tens of thousands of people on a waiting list in people around the world who can make a unique differ- British Columbia. ence in British Columbia through additional economic Is it really the Minister of Health's policy to sell off development. We accept that responsibility of hosting the spots that he's cancelled for people living in British them appropriately. Again, any tickets involved with this Columbia — in Maple Ridge, in Mission, in Surrey, in effort will be fully accounted for. Kelowna — and offer them to other provinces? Is that the new position of the Ministry of Health and the Waiting times for surgeries in B.C. Minister of Health? Why doesn't he use the surgery time in British A. Dix: The health authorities, under the direction of Columbia to close the wait times… the Minister of Health, have announced the cancellation of more than 10,000 surgeries between now and March Interjection. 31, 2010, the end of the fiscal year. This will increase wait times for B.C. residents across surgical categories. Mr. Speaker: Member, just…. Now we learn that the B.C. Liberal government is in discussions with the province of Saskatchewan to use the A. Dix: …in British Columbia? Why doesn't he do that? capacity created by the cuts to welcome their patients for surgery at a price. Why is it acceptable for the Minister Mr. Speaker: Member. of Health to cancel surgeries in Surrey and Kelowna to make room for people from Regina and Saskatoon? A. Dix: And why doesn't he explain to British Columbians waiting for surgery across the province why Hon. K. Falcon: I'm very glad he asked the question, he's selling off their care to the highest bidder? because as a result of the investments we've made in British Columbia in innovation in facilities throughout Mr. Speaker: Minister, before you start speaking, I the province — by the way, innovations and dollars the think there's an apology in order. NDP opposed — we have seen the average medium wait time for hip and knee surgeries decline by 50 percent in Hon. K. Falcon: I apologize for whatever it is the the province of British Columbia. Speaker is asking me to apologize for — absolutely. 1686 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Mr. Speaker: Minister. Minister, sit down for a second, They are at record levels, and that has been a record that please. The comment that was made is to be withdrawn. this government has invested in as a result of innova- Now, would the minister please withdraw the comment tions like the UBC Centre for Surgical Innovation, which that he made to the opposition critic. is being recognized across the country for the work they do. And they opposed it. That's what they always do. Hon. K. Falcon: Certainly, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw. They oppose good innovation. [1420] Mr. Speaker: Proceed, Minister. EARLY INTERVENTION PROGRAM Hon. K. Falcon: So let's understand. I think it might FOR CHILDREN WITH AUTISM be helpful to read something out of a newspaper article that perhaps will inform the member opposite. "'The M. Karagianis: Today hundreds of families in 20 com- wait-lists are horrendous,' said Victoria clinic director Dr. munities across British Columbia have gathered together Brian Weinerman. We're sending people to Bellingham to protest the cuts to autism funding for their children. just to reduce the pressure" — this was in reference to These parents are protesting the cuts that have reduced an article in the Vancouver Sun about hundreds of B.C. therapies to the very lowest level, a level that will not cancer patients having to travel to Bellingham to avoid allow their children to experience successful outcomes. waits of up to six months for radiation treatment — To the Minister of Children and Families: I would like "cancer experts said Wednesday." the minister to explain to these families how any of her Now, the interesting thing about that is that that decisions are fair or equitable. actually took place on August 22, 1996, while that critic was the chief of staff to the government that was sending Hon. M. Polak: I'm happy to say that the member is patients, cancer patients, out of the province to receive absolutely wrong. There has been no reduction to the care. autism program. In fact, it's increased this year by $1.6 The difference with us is that we have reduced wait million. That brings it to a level that is ten times what it times by 50 percent in British Columbia. We've got was in 2001. provinces looking to us to say: "Can you help us with our wait-lists?" That's the difference. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Here's the best part. The best part is that not only, in the discussions we have as we engage in this discussion, M. Karagianis: That information from the minister is do we have the opportunity to have our costs covered actually just not factual. The early intervention program for doing the procedures, but we can charge a premium in this province has been cancelled for the 70 children that makes sure that British Columbians have the ability at a time who experienced that intensive intervention to get additional services quicker and faster right here in behaviour. It's gone, cancelled. British Columbia. B.C. has one of the lowest spending levels anywhere in the country. So 70 children at a time…. Now, 600 J. Horgan: Well, only in Liberal bizarro world would children successfully have gone through this program. cancelled surgeries be good news for British Columbians. Hundreds are on waiting lists now to get this program George Orwell would be proud of the minister for that so that their children can very successfully enter school remark just a minute ago. and go on to achieve excellent outcomes. What is the message he's got for the thousand people To the families who have come here to this House, I on Vancouver Island who have had their surgeries can- would like the minister to please explain why increasing celled because this government won't adequately fund hardship to families with autistic or special needs chil- health care? What's the message to them? Move to dren is the priority of this B.C. Liberal government. Regina? Move to Moose Jaw? Is that the message from the minister? Hon. M. Polak: In British Columbia, unlike other jurisdictions in Canada, we have a commitment to Hon. K. Falcon: No, the message from the minister ensure that every single child and youth with a diagnosis will actually be the facts. I know the members are always of autism is provided with financial support to help their uncomfortable with facts, particularly numbers. So I'll give intervention, and for that, there's no wait-list. the member some numbers that he might find interesting. The member well knows that the entire budget that In 2001, which is the year we came into power and the was devoted to the EIBI program is being returned into year following up the NDP government, there were 2,908 the autism budget, and that will help to serve hundreds knee replacements in the province. This year — 6,975. of families all across British Columbia. Right now the Hips and knee surgeries are at record levels in the EIBI program services 70 children in approximately province of British Columbia. They are not being cut. seven communities in British Columbia. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1687

We are working with those service providers, and Social Development. In this chamber, continued second we are ensuring that, contrary to what the member is reading debate on Bill 17. saying, those families will continue to be provided with the proper intervention for their child. They will receive Second Reading of Bills the funding support that the rest of the autism families in this province will receive. We are committed to ensuring Bill 17 — HEALTH STATUTES that they all receive service. (RESIDENTS' BILL OF RIGHTS) AMENDMENT ACT, 2009 M. Elmore: Today hundreds of families are speaking (continued) out against the cancellation of the early intervention pro- gram and the decision to leave autistic children without M. Karagianis: I'm happy to continue my comments the level of support that can make a difference in their on Bill 17. Just to recap my earlier comments on this lives. These cuts are senseless and shortsighted. debate, I certainly see Bill 17 as being a rather weak We know that we will pay more in the long run for replacement for the seniors advocate that the Leader of supports for these and other special needs children the Opposition and the B.C. NDP have been calling for. because we didn't give them the strong start in life that they deserve. Their voices are being ignored by this [L. Reid in the chair.] government. At a time when this government is squandering tax Certainly, the fact that government feels that it needs dollars on luxury boxes for a hand-picked few, these to establish a bill of rights for seniors says to me that the families are asking why their children are at the bottom need for seniors to have some kind of advocate is greater of the priority list. than ever. Unfortunately, I think this is a weak replica- To the minister: why are autistic and special needs tion of what is really needed. children paying the price, and why is the government Certainly, in looking through the terms that are laid cutting this effective program? out here on what the rights of the seniors will be…. I alluded towards the end of my comments yesterday that Hon. M. Polak: First of all, to suggest that children with for eight years we have seen a reduction in the quality autism in this province will not receive intervention, and of services provided to seniors here in the province of to frighten parents in that way, is absolutely irresponsible. British Columbia. We have seen a reduction in home [1425] supports and other things that would have allowed sen- We are working with community development cen- iors to live a longer, healthier life in their own homes tres around this province — those that have had the EIBI before requiring residential care. It certainly begs a lot program and those that have not — to ensure that not of questions about all of the various items included in only are we creating a transition plan for those 70 chil- this bill of rights for seniors. dren but also that we are able to best serve the 6,000 chil- I talked yesterday about the change in the kind of dren with autism that we serve all across this province. residential care that's being offered to seniors. Certainly, many of the options available to seniors in the past have [End of question period.] slowly been eroded away to kind of a one-size-fits-all assisted-living kind of care provision, with residential K. Corrigan: I seek permission to make an introduc- care sort of morphing out of that kind of assisted living tion. and costs going up for seniors all the time. One of the other aspects, I think, of this Bill 17 and Mr. Speaker: Proceed. the need for this bill of rights for seniors that flies in the face of reason somewhat…. Some of the language that's Introductions by Members contained in here is, in many ways, kind of mother- hood statements around the kinds of things that seniors K. Corrigan: I'm very happy to see that we have in should expect — you know, their rights to health, safety the gallery today Ken Robinson, who is the president and dignity. One would always assume that that's exactly of HEU, a former colleague and a friend of mine. You'll what all families hope for their senior members who are make him welcome, please. put into residential care and that all seniors, frankly, should be expecting that would be the minimum they Orders of the Day could expect in the way of treatment. [1430] Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, in Committee A I call But I go on, and when I go through the various items Committee of Supply — for the information of members, here in the bill of rights for seniors, I see that not only the ongoing estimates of the Ministry of Housing and are seniors to be treated in a manner that promotes their 1688 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

health, safety and dignity, but seniors are being guaran- I see that as one of the driving forces here in having teed now to have their lifestyle and choices respected to establish a bill of rights. We no longer have that con- and supported. trol over how privatized residential care providers treat I have to say, again, that flies in the face of reality here individuals. for many seniors. We've seen over the last eight years this We've seen some horrendous examples coming out propensity from the government to begin to erode away of Cowichan Valley, where the Cowichan Lodge was the public facilities here in British Columbia in favour of closed. Seniors were then forced into a privatized facility. privatized facilities, or this need to move seniors around They've now had their cost of living jacked up over and to fulfil contracts with privatized companies. over again. They're now being charged for all kinds of I know that within my own community, many seniors things they never were before. have been stripped away of some of their choices. The Is that one of the reasons we need to provide a bill of Priory in Langford, which has long been a very superior rights — to go in and find a way to protect those indi- and excellent environment for seniors, has recently had viduals? We can't. Everybody in this House knows that a number of their seniors units taken away from them. we've had long and deliberate debates about privatization The number of units has been reduced at the Priory. and about our ability to provide oversight and direction Those units, when I contacted the health authority, it to these residential care providers. turns out, have been moved over to a new facility that It seems to me that when I look at all of the things that just opened over on Gorge Road in the new Selkirk facility are included in this bill of rights, this is what it's about. for seniors. It's about trying to assure seniors that if they go into a If we're truly going to allow seniors their choice of privatized facility, they're not going to end up having lifestyle, then it means that if they want to stay in their many of their personal and private privileges taken communities, that should be one of the first priorities away from them, or they're not going to find themselves for those seniors. charged for every little thing that they do and use. Yet the seniors that were in the Priory, taking those [1435] spaces in the Priory, have now been denied the choice for I've heard some stories out of Cowichan Lodge. Cer- them to stay in their community, where their families can tainly, the seniors in my community are very concerned. live nearby and the families can see those seniors on a regu- As we've seen the erosion of some of the options for them, lar basis. Now, instead, those seniors have to live downtown, I think that they see this as kind of thin gruel, to think that if in fact they want to take advantage of those spaces. a bill of rights is in any way going to provide the security It would seem to me that this movement out of public and sense of safety and dignity that they are hoping for. facilities into private facilities, or out of residential care The reality here is the lack of government action on in your community to residential care units miles away long-term care beds. I know we canvass this frequently, from your family, does not in any way support this bill of but the BCMA, which is hardly considered a faction rights, where the government is now claiming that the of New Democrat research, have themselves come up seniors will have a choice in where and how they are with the real factual evidence of what's happened here supported and what kind of residential units they will around seniors care in British Columbia. be able to access. We know that the B.C. Liberals continue to insist that This goes on to talk about their right to have their they have built all kinds of long-term care beds, but personal privacy respected, to have visitors and to com- according to the BCMA, there has been a net decline municate with visitors in private, to keep and display of 552 beds, up to and including 2007, here in British personal possessions in their rooms. Why in the world Columbia. That's just a fact. BCMA is supplying this. would we not assume that a caring and compassionate The number of people receiving home support residential care situation would automatically provide dropped by 24 percent, and the government has broken that for seniors? their promises to work with non-profit societies to build The fact that we have to embed this into a bill of rights and operate new beds. In fact, it's all gone to privatiza- speaks to me very strongly of the fact that we have lost tion. Beds have been closed in government and non- touch very much with the control over some of these profit-operated nursing homes to be replaced by beds new privatized seniors care facilities. That, unfortunately, opened in private facilities. That's evidence from theB .C. is a tragedy for many seniors. Medical Association. The reality here is that we have got a huge loss of resi- Rightly, I can see that the government has been forced dential care spaces, particularly in this area here in the to the wall here to try and create a bill of rights to rectify south Island. That is a huge jeopardy for many seniors, some of the problems that they've created with their own and they feel threatened by this. impetuous desire to do away with public and non-profit We're seeing many closures of programs, support pro- seniors care and replace it with privatization. grams and residential care facilities here. Many of these I'm not going to get into the debate at this point on how will be in favour of privatized units. assisted living is, in fact, not a substitution for residential Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1689

care, because I think that will be canvassed at length by care system, has foisted all of it off into privatized hands, other members of this House. I am very concerned about where seniors are now paying more than ever before? the fact that so many of the options that we actually do I mentioned this yesterday. The government at one need here in the province are not being supplanted in any time were protecting seniors by saying that only 70 percent way by this bill of rights. of their income could go towards their care. Now they've It's the fact that we actually have to embed in lan- jacked that up to 80 percent of their income that can guage the rights of the senior to participate in freedom go towards their care. More money into the privatized of expression. "An adult person in care has the right to caregivers' hands and less for the senior. When we talk participate in his or her own care and to freely express about a senior's right to participate and develop their his or her own views, including a right to the following," own plan, the choices are few. and there's a list here. I want to just go back to this. A "To establish and participate in a resident or family senior has a right to participate in his or her own care. council to represent the interests of the person in care." How can they participate in their own care if the choice Well, that's now saying that others can step in. Granted, is only one option? that sounds very good on the surface, but again, how is In the case of Cowichan Lodge, those seniors had no a family to intervene — right? option. It was either have no care or have privatized care. The next point on the step is that his or her family In the case of those citizens and seniors in my commun- or representative can participate in a resident or family ity who have seen units within the Priory closed, they council on their behalf. If so much of this is eroded service, have been forced to either take units at the Selkirk home and families object to this, where are they to go, and who or take — what? — nothing. What are the options? are they to speak to? Frankly, you know, this continued If you give seniors only one choice — you can't stay erosion of services to seniors…. in the publicly run facility or non-profit-run facility Families have been fighting back and complaining for because we're shutting that down; you're going to have a long time about the reduction in home care, about the to move to the privatized facility whether you like it or reduction in the number of services that their seniors are not — and then we have government trying to embed receiving, and now we have a bill of rights that's embed- language in here that says, "An adult person has the ding language in here that, frankly, I don't think the gov- right to participate in his or her own care," how is that ernment can actually make good on. I don't think that the possible? government can enforce this because they're not enforcing You could participate in your own care, but you only it now, and the options are not there for many seniors. have one choice. Go out of the publicly run facility and It goes on to talk about the senior having the right to into the privatized one, where, frankly, government says: be informed of "how to make a complaint to an author- "Oh, we don't have a lot of control over that, because ity outside the facility." Well, we have seen here in the that's privatized." Certainly, the public has no way of province of British Columbia — in fact, only steps away finding information out, because that's all protected by from this Legislature — abuse foisted on seniors who freedom of information from any kind of disclosure. It were unable to speak out for themselves. That was at the seems to me that this bill of rights is a lot of language hands of approved residential care providers who are still with no substance. providing care here in the province of British Columbia. It reminds me of many of the slogans we've seen from So how in the world is this bill of rights going to protect this B.C. Liberal government over eight years, where them if seniors are being mistreated, abused or neglected, they march out a fancy-looking slogan or a fancy-looking especially by privatized residential care providers? What program, don't fund it, don't give it any substance and good does this bill of rights do for them? make sure all the activities around and supporting that It certainly didn't help many of the seniors here at system are contrary to the slogan. That somehow is con- Beacon lodge. Are we going to see more stories like this, sidered to be satisfactory. or is this a way to keep the cap on them? "Oh, they have [1440] a bill of rights now, so they have the right to complain." When you look at the choices that are being given to Well, I have a father who's in the very advanced stages of seniors in this bill of rights…. We talk about their ability dementia, and he could no more speak out for himself if and their freedom to choose the kind of care they want, he was being neglected than could my cat. "to participate in the development and implementation So what happens, then, with these seniors? It seems to of his or her care plan." Well, for those individuals who me that as you go through each piece of this bill of rights…. are now stuck in privatized residential care and being "The Rights to Transparency and Accountability." Well, billed for Kleenex and aspirin, anything that they take, when did that ever stop this government from privatizing in a way that they never were before, how are they able away, protecting the privatized partner from any kind to develop and implement their own care plan? of disclosure? How can you fulfil this when government has not If this is going to be a real, supported and accountable made any effort to protect the public seniors residential bill of rights for seniors, then the government is going 1690 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

to have to really change their attitude in a big way about So I have incredible respect for the people who work how they've been treating seniors for the last eight years in long-term and health care facilities generally, and I and how they intend to treat them in the future, because understand the pressures that they face every day. This most of this is fancy language that in no way bears a bill is a recognition, however, that seniors don't always resemblance to what's really going on in the world for get the care that they deserve or the care that they need. many seniors who are losing their rights. It's costing This bill is a recognition that there is a political problem them more for services. They are feeling less secure for the government as well. about their choices in the future as they see government My leader, during the last election campaign, advocated close down many of the facilities that we've just seen. strongly for the appointment of a seniors representative, Under VIHA we're seeing huge closures right across someone who would be an advocate on behalf of sen- the south Island here. That gives seniors a great deal of iors in the province of British Columbia, someone who concern in my community. This bill of rights in no way would ensure that seniors received good care, someone whatsoever will give them comfort because the govern- who could deal with investigations into the care that was ment simply can't back it up. It's fancy language with no provided. substance behind it. The member from Esquimalt has just finished listing [1445] a number of facilities within, literally, walking distance You know, this goes on to say that the scope of rights of this very Legislature where seniors didn't get the care here, set out in this bill, the rights set out in these they deserved, where seniors didn't get the care that this clauses: "are subject to (a) what is reasonably practical bill describes now as a right. given the physical, mental and emotional circumstances You know, on one hand I've never been fond of the of the person in care" — absolutely; that is critical — "(b) use of the term "rights." We throw it around in common the need to protect and promote the health or safety of parlance nowadays as if there were rights to all kinds the person in care or another person in care, and (c) the of things which, from a legalistic perspective, we don't rights of other persons in care." Absolutely. really recognize. But there are expectations. For seniors who are selecting their own care and man- There are expectations in a society as wealthy as ours aging their own lives…. Let's be honest. Many of us are that when you're a senior, you're going to be cared for. headed in that direction sooner than later, and I would You'll be sheltered. You'll be provided with health care hope that a bill of rights will really protect me as a senior, appropriate to your needs. You will be somehow safe. the seniors in my community, and give some security to The blessings that the old Pope called for would be, in the families who are looking after their seniors' care. fact, delivered to you. You wouldn't have to worry about who cared for you. You would have supportive people L. Krog: One gets the impression that what we really around you. have here is the political equivalent of a band-aid over The reality is that in British Columbia today we have a very seriously infected cut. It's all about covering it worked very hard, particularly on Vancouver Island, up. It's not really about assisting and dealing with the particularly in the Interior within Kelowna, Penticton serious problem that exists underneath. It won't make areas, at encouraging retirees to move to British Columbia. anything better, but it will provide cover. It will provide We have strongly encouraged it. The business community cover, and that's about all it's going to provide. has asked for it. Government policy has helped support My grandmother spent the last years of her life in a it, arguably. We want people to retire here. facility in Parksville. Trillium Lodge, a not-for-profit [1450] facility built by the community, supported by numerous But the reality for many of those seniors, let alone volunteers, provided excellent care. She was often fond those who are native-born British Columbians who of quoting old Pope John, who very kindly used to say: spend their whole lives here, is that when they have come "God bless the very young, and God bless the very old." and when they get older, when they become infirm and The reason the Pope said that, I think, is self-evident. unable to care for themselves, there is no family available Because at those stages of life, that is when you don't to care for them. necessarily have any ability to protect yourself, to look Their children are back in Regina or Moose Jaw or after yourself, to control events around you, to even Mississauga or St. John's. They're not there to go in and request or express in an intelligible way what your needs check and see if mom and dad are okay, if they're getting are, what your concerns are, what your cares are, whether the care they need. The only support system you will you're sick, whether you're healthy, where it hurts even. have at the end stage of your life in a facility will be the My father-in-law ended up in a facility in Nanaimo support system provided by the paid staff, by the people — Malaspina. It was the old hospital. He died with who work in that facility. You won't have the benefit of Alzheimer's, unable to express himself. Able nurses would family to comfort you. be able to perhaps determine whether he was in pain or So what you will be is — quite simply, in many respects, where it hurt. as you often are living to a ripe old age — isolated, alone, Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1691

unable to fend for yourself, not capable of expressing in It even has a section referring to the scope of the many cases what your needs are. rights. It says that the "rights set out in clauses 2, 3 and 4 It's entirely appropriate for patients, for people at that are subject to (a) what is reasonably practical given the stage of life, people in care, to have rights. I would call physical, mental and emotional circumstances of the them more expectations than rights. We will call it a bill person in care, (b) the need to protect and promote the of rights, but it's not quite the same. Let's not pretend health or safety of the person in care or another person we're going to give it the same strength and authority in care, and (c) the rights of other persons in care." that we do for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. What it doesn't include is a section (d) that tells us We recognize in our legal system that the right to a the truth. These rights are subject to theT reasury Board trial will guarantee you…. A free trial in a serious criminal approving the appropriate funding to ensure that there case will entitle you to legal counsel. There's no ques- is staffing that can actually deliver on these rights. tion about that. The state is going to ensure that you get It's all well and good to talk about the right "(a) to your defence. The state, through our justice system, will be treated in a manner, and to live in an environment, ensure that you have the right to free speech. that promotes his or her health, safety and dignity; (b) But the rights that are enumerated in this statute — in to be protected from abuse and neglect; (c) to have his or this bill, rather — are ultimately subject to money. That's her lifestyle and choices respected and supported, and what it really gets back to. It's fine to talk about the rights to pursue social, cultural, religious, spiritual and other to health and safety and dignity, but if there isn't suffi- interests." cient funding, the rights almost become meaningless. How can you protect someone's lifestyle if they're I'm not suggesting this is part of some government plot suffering from dementia and in a wheelchair that they or anything like that, but the fact is that without appro- can't operate themselves — if they're absolutely depend- priate funding, the rights that are enumerated in section ent on someone to push them everywhere to participate 1, which would add the schedule which will be entitled in any of these events? How is that right to health and schedule 7…. Those rights are dependent on cash. Those safety and dignity supported? rights are dependent on the ability of government to fund. It puts me in mind of something that President Those rights are absolutely dependent on the govern- Johnson once said, I think around the passage of the ment's willingness to make seniors care a priority. Civil Rights Act. He said basically it wasn't enough that The law is a funny thing. Anatole France once said: you could take a people who had been held in chains "The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as their whole life and set them beside another runner in the poor to beg in the streets, to steal bread and to sleep the great race and say, "We're equal" and "go for it," and under bridges." It's a lovely phrase. pretend that that was equality. It didn't work. We're going to, presumably, pass this bill. I don't think So when we talk about these rights, there are no rights there's any question the opposition is going to oppose unless there is support. Without that support, the rights this bill. This does move us forward, however slowly and become meaningless. They become a sort of salesman's however tentatively. We're going to support this. But it puffery, if you will — the kind of language that's used all becomes quite meaningless if it isn't accompanied by the time by people who want to sell you a bill of goods the real political willingness to pay for it. These rights and disappear. That is what many of us think we're being really are something that has to be supported by money, sold. It's a bill of goods. by budgetary priorities, by a government that is serious We don't have a Charter right to health care, but as about this. Canadians it is probably our one strong universal public I come back to my point. Some of us in the opposition value — that we will have the right to health care. We just have the feeling that this is a political band-aid. This is have an expectation that it'll be delivered in a timely exactly what I said it was. This is a reaction to an enormous way and that seniors in particular — again, amongst the political problem this government faces, and that is the most vulnerable amongst us, those in care and facilities strongly held belief by many British Columbians, seniors — will get the treatment that they deserve and the treat- in particular but their children as well, who believe that, ment that many of us are going to come to expect. in fact, seniors are not getting the level of care that we as As are the vast majority of members in this chamber, I a civilized society believe they're entitled to. am part of that great postwar baby generation. The sta- That's what it really comes back to — a growing sense tistics say that by 2020 in British Columbia the propor- in British Columbia that we aren't treating our seniors, tion of seniors will grow from 14.2 percent in 2007 to the most vulnerable of our seniors, in a way that befits a 19.2 percent in 2020. By 2030 nearly one in four British civilized society. That's the problem. I sadly suspect that Columbians is going to be over the age of 65. That's that's really what this bill is all about. There's nothing in from the report of the Premier's Council on Aging and here that says the government's committed to spending Seniors Issues, November 2006. money. It's a staggering figure. Where does this bill of rights [1455] figure in a future where one in four of us are over 65? 1692 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Where does this bill of rights figure in a world where, with a good union staff, people who retained their jobs based on present expectations, fully a quarter of us will for years; people who developed that familiarity with be retired or expect to be retired? Realistically, I'm not their patients, if you will, with the residents; people who sure any of us will be retired. We'll probably all still be knew each other. beavering away in this House on behalf of the people We're talking about for-profit facilities, and we all of British Columbia, and I hope we all have the good know what this government did with Bill 29. We all know health to do it. what happened to a number of people who worked in I see the member from Mission has poked his head up. health care, in long-term care facilities. We know what He's interested in that concept, too — that he'll be here has happened in Nanaimo, Nanaimo Seniors Village, on for a very long time. And I'm delighted to hear that. various occasions — mass layoffs of staff. Imagine what But the reality is that we're not all going to enjoy good terror that must strike into the hearts of the seniors in health. Many of us are going to end up in facilities of those facilities, hon. Speaker, facing the prospect that various kinds requiring various levels of care. So when I staff that they were used to relying on, staff they'd come hear the government wax so eloquent about solving the to know, were going to be gone. problem with a bill of rights without any commitment If we're going to talk about the commitment to care, if to the funding and support that's needed, I have to ask we're going to talk about rights to health and safety and myself: "Just how sincere are they?" dignity, rights to participation and freedom of expression, The Hospital Employees Union, I think, has wisely rights to transparency and accountability, we have to pointed out, having taken a quick look at this bill, that talk about those other things. We have to talk about the really these rights are largely dependent on providing reality of what it is to be a senior, what it is to be entirely minimum staffing levels. These rights are dependent on dependent on others, and what kind of a system we're numbers which, frankly, don't bode well for the exercise creating if these rights are to have any meaning at all. of these rights by British Columbians. Government policy has, without question, encouraged [1500] more and more private health care delivery in this prov- What do we know? We know that in British Columbia ince, for-profit facilities. That is what the government we are not providing the funding at the same level as believes philosophically is the best thing for our seniors. other provinces in terms of the numbers of hours avail- I don't believe for a moment that it is the best thing for able for care in facilities. We know, for instance, in 2003- our seniors. The members of the opposition don't believe 2004 the per-capita spending on home care in British it for a moment, and hon. Speaker, I suspect that if you Columbia was $82, below the national average of $91. polled them, the vast majority of British Columbians We had one of the lowest utilization rates for home care don't either. in Canada. People understand what the profit motive is all about. Now, what that tells us is that we're not supporting You know what, hon. Speaker? Many of us on this side of them at home to stay in their homes, which is a very the House have either run a small business or a profes- good thing, which should be one of the primary goals sional office, worked in businesses, worked for employers. of government policy — to ensure that people remain We understood the necessity of profit. You've got to have in their own homes, in the security of their neighbour- a profit. People don't invest; people don't get employ- hoods, in the security of a dwelling that they're used to. ment. You know, you can argue that there's no incentive. That would be the best thing. But when it comes to the delivery of care for people What we know, in fact, is that seniors aren't necessarily who have lost control of their lives in every sense because getting that support they need to stay in their own homes, they are entirely dependent on others — the concept of so they are going into facilities. Assisted living at first them being cared for in facilities where the motive is — you know, a couple of meals a day, a room to stay in, profit.... Surely that should strike us as just somehow not hopefully some companionship — and then on to higher in accordance with those great Canadian values around levels of care. public health care. Imagine, hon. Speaker, how difficult it must be if you I'm not suggesting for a moment that all of the facilities still have your ability to comprehend the world around in this province that are for-profit facilities aren't deliv- you. You have no family. You're dependent on a facility ering good care. I'm not suggesting for a moment that for everything: to toilet you, to feed you, to move you, to their owners don't have some interest in providing the engage you in any activity that you might wish to par- care, and think it's a good thing to do and don't actually ticipate in — entirely dependent on the facility. see it as probably one of the best businesses they can be Imagine, hon. Speaker, what that must feel like if you're involved in. But at its root, the facility won't survive unless in a facility where you know it's essentially a business. it makes money, unless it makes a profit. It's a for-profit facility. Imagine what that must feel like. [1505] This isn't Trillium Lodge where, as I mentioned, my On one hand we've got a facility where there's no grandmother spent her last years — a not-for-profit interest in making a profit. It's there entirely devoted to Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1693

delivering a service. On the other hand we've got a facility We have figured out in our society that the appoint- where someone has to make a dollar, where there are ment of independent officers of thisL egislature is a good investors who expect a return. thing. We've got an independent conflict commissioner, I'm no rocket scientist, but I think it's pretty clear to we've got an independent Auditor General, we've got an me what kind of facility I'd like to be cared for in. I think independent ombudsperson, and we have independent it's pretty clear to me that I want to be in a place where I persons like the child and youth representative, who we know the people who are running it and the whole oper- know are there with a guaranteed and fixed position ation are devoted to delivering a service for me when I with an ability to protect the interests of the people who need it. It's not, at its root, a place designed to make a they are statutorily required to protect. profit. This government could have included the appointment If you're going to enforce these rights, if these rights are of a seniors advocate. It wouldn't have been unreasonable to have any meaning whatsoever, then they have to be sup- in this bill. I think it would have been, if you will, an ported by the money, and they have to be part of a system acknowledgment of what I've had to say about the good where the primary goal is not for profit. The primary goal work of my party and my leader around the appointment is, in fact, assuring that one of the most vulnerable groups of an advocate, but it also would have said, I think, in a in our society, seniors in the end stages of life, get the care very clear way to British Columbians, that this wasn't that they deserve. just a political fix. You know, there is, as I said, a difference between [1510] expectations and rights. I think most of us who have This wasn't just the political band-aid that I talked grown up post-war generation — and, indeed, pre-war about. It was a sincere attempt by the government to — expected that when we got old, if we became so ill or remedy the problem that they acknowledged by bring- infirm that we required residential care, care in a facil- ing this bill before the House, and that is that seniors care ity…. Our expectation was that we would receive that in this province isn't what British Columbians believe is care, that we would receive the kinds of supports to good or right or proper. It also would have been, I think, ensure that we could live out our last days in dignity. If a more effective solution to dealing with the issues that we are to live out those last days in dignity, then surely confront our seniors in care. we have to do more than just provide what I will call a But instead, what we have is the whitewash. We've statement of almost platitudes. got the statement of rights. I think the member from It says in section 4: Esquimalt talked about form versus substance. We've "An adult person in care has the right to transparency and got the form, but we haven't got the substance. accountability, including a right to all of the following: (a) to have We've got a tiny admission by the introduction of this ready access to copies of all laws, rules and policies affecting a bill that there's a problem, but we're really not quite pre- service provided to him or her; (b) to have ready access to a copy of the most recent routine inspection record made under the pared to go far enough to actually deal with the issues. Act; (c) to be informed in advance of all charges, fees and other We've got a great statement of what seniors are entitled amounts that he or she must pay for accommodation…." to. I suppose you could call it the wish list. And that's all It strikes me that one of the things I might like to also it will be — a wish list, a statement of higher ideals to see is not the most routine inspection reports made which we aspire if it becomes meaningless. under the act but the extraordinary ones, the ones where There's a statement attributed to President Jackson the facility that I'm housed in are, in fact, in violation. when they removed the Cherokee and sent them on Surely I have a right to know that as well. I don't see that the Trail of Tears. The Chief Justice of the United States, enumerated here. Chief Justice Marshall, presiding over the Supreme Forgive my cynicism, but when I see that we talk about Court, decided that the removal was illegal. Of course, the "adult person in care has the right to transparency what happened was…. The response, historically attributed and accountability," gosh, I've got to tell you, most British to President Jackson, was: "The Chief Justice has made Columbians were hoping to get that from this govern- his decision. Let him enforce it." Well, in fairness to ment — this transparency and accountability — but that President Jackson, history has finally figured out that he doesn't seem to be the case. We just went through an never actually said that, but it's a great story because it interesting question period today where we couldn't get illustrates my point. a decent answer around the issue of accountability for an Passage of a bill like this is meaningless unless there is expenditure of a half a million dollars for boxes. the government apparatus to enforce it, unless there are If we do have this right as seniors in care, persons in designated persons interested in doing their work. We care, to transparency and accountability, what are the know, for instance, what this government has done around specifics? How's it going to be enforced? Who's going employment standards. We have the shell there. We've got to guarantee that it happens? Who's going to deliver it? the form, for example. But if an employee has a problem, Why not a seniors advocate? Why not someone who is they go to employment standards, and then they're sent independent? back to discuss the problem with their employer. 1694 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Well, I'm sure that's of great comfort to a 17-year-old kid has just come into the public gallery. A dear friend and who's desperate to help support his family or a 25-year- former colleague, Mr. Alex Campbell, has joined us old single mom with a couple of kids at home. She's going from the district of Richmond. He and I were school to go back to the employer who's harassing her or making administrators together, and I would ask the House to her life difficult and try and solve the problem. It doesn't please make him very welcome. cut it. There's a real world out there. What senior is going to feel comfortable trying to N. Macdonald: I, too, will take my place to speak assert these rights if they're not satisfied that they've got about Bill 17, which is the residents bill of rights, an a government system of enforcement that will genuinely amendment to the health statutes act. protect them, that will ensure that they're taken care of, Section 3 in this bill lists the rights of adult persons that will ensure that the complaint they've made will be in care. There's a fairly extensive list, and most of the supported and a remedy found? Where is that guarantee? things that would be listed here are fairly self-evident: It's not in here. to be treated in a manner and live in an environment You can submit a complaint to the patient care quality…. that promotes the individual's health, safety and dignity; Let's see. "In addition to any complaint that may be made protection from abuse or neglect. It lists pretty well, with under this Act, if a person in care believes that his or her a dozen statements, things that people should be able to rights have been violated, the person in care or a person expect in care in this province. acting on his or her behalf may submit a complaint under The difficulties that you do have with the bill…. I the Patient Care Quality Review Board Act." think the sentiments expressed are so self-evident and so What sort of funding does the Patient Care Quality reasonable that you're not going to get anybody voting Review Board Act appointee get? Are we going to guar- against them, but I think that we have to look at the antee that it's a priority? Is it going to be like funding for context in terms of what's being put forward here. the Nanaimo children's festival, through a gaming grant First, when you look at the bill, there are modifiers. — going to disappear? Is it like funding for parent advisory There are things like "if practical." So a statement like: councils — going to disappear? Is it like support for a "Somebody should be treated in a manner, in an environ- whole series of things that this government claims to ment, that promotes the individual's health, safety believe in — going to disappear down the priority list? and dignity…." It modifies that where it says "if that's So I come back to my main point. The opposition will practical." support this. It's a step forward. But the proof is in the Then it also makes it clear — it's explicit in the amendment pudding; the proof is in the delivery. here — that there's no right of action. So there is nothing Will this government step up to the plate and provide here that really allows anyone to act upon any of these enough competent, qualified people to ensure that those expressions of standards if they are not kept, because vulnerable adults and people in care get the care they first it modifies…. It allows an out with "if it's practical deserve, get the enforcement of the rights that this bill or not," and then it is explicit in saying that there's no enumerates, receive and be entitled to exactly what we right of action. believe they are entitled to, and that is to security and safety Essentially, what you have with this amendment is and comfort at a time when they are most vulnerable? something that is — I think many of my colleagues [1515] have said it — a communication piece. It solves a pol- Without all of that, what we are doing here is essentially itical problem, and I would make the case that it really engaging in a public relations exercise. The people ofB ritish does not in a substantive way correct the problems that Columbia expect and deserve better. Most particularly, are there for people that are depending on residential seniors, adults in care, deserve better because if they don't care in this province. Those people are predominantly get it, all we are doing here is contributing to the growing seniors. cynicism around government and its ability to deliver services I think what people know is that in any society, you and protect its citizens. That's all we're doing. really judge the quality of that society by how it organizes I sincerely hope that the government, either because itself to look after those that are vulnerable.I n many parts it's a political problem or because they sincerely believe of the world the family structure does that. In Canada it's it, are going to back up this bill of rights, if you will, with not only the family, but also the wider society pools the the kind of support that is required in order to ensure resources to look after those that are vulnerable. Those that the lofty ideals set out in it are, in fact, implemented, include children, of course; those that have fallen sick that our seniors are protected. They deserve to be pro- or are disabled in some way; those that have fallen into tected. They helped build this province, and God knows, poverty; and of course those that find, because of age…. we're all going to get there some day. They're seniors, and they're in a position where there is a certain vulnerability, especially as they move on. Deputy Speaker: Members, with your indulgence, I Very often the physical constraints become such that would like to take a moment to recognize someone who they have to move into care or else one of the things Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1695

that many of us see with people as they grow older is the I think you could go through a long list. The heartland onset of a very difficult situation related to Alzheimer's, strategy — it was the same thing. This expression, this which is increasingly common. communications plan, about what was going to happen [1520] — in the end, there was nothing to it. It is something that is very difficult, not only for the That's the problem with this bill too. To make these individual who suffers from it but also for family mem- statements, even if you do it in the form of legislation, is bers and the wider society trying to help those people. meaningless if it doesn't come with some of the resources It creates real challenges. I think that as politicians, we to find solutions to real problems that seniors have. have the ability to interact with a large number of people. What I would put in front of people is that the values Certainly in rural areas, and I suspect for most of us, the of the people that I represent…. I know that those values election process is a process of going door to door, talk- include looking after our seniors properly. What they ing to an awful lot of people and getting a pretty clear expect is that the real problems that are there are fixed sense of what people think about provincial politics. and that we should not simply substitute an expression My experience over the past four years has also of sentiment and say: "Well, that's the problem solved." included all of the community meetings that you attend. That's the concern that I have. Expressing this is an I can say with absolute sureness that the values that are attempt by the government to make it look like they are there for the people that I represent…. One of the strong- actually doing something or are serious about something, est values, articulated most clearly in 2005 during that when in fact, the problems that are to be solved will take election, but again in 2009, is that people want seniors resources and they will take work. treated with dignity and respect. To do that, we need to [1525] get the residential care piece right. I think the context that we have to look at when we What I would assert and certainly what I heard door look at this bill is an understanding that what we will to door is that it is a piece that this government has get shortly is a report from the Ombudsman's office — consistently failed on, that there is a consistent problem or the ombudsperson, if that's what they're going to be with residential care in B.C. for seniors and that people called — where it lays out some of the challenges for don't accept that that is the way it should be. seniors. So what I would suggest and, I think, what most who Regardless of what is laid out, I think there's no question would look at this would suggest is…. What you have that in the public mind those shortcomings have been is, essentially, an act that is to solve a political problem. pretty clear. The area that I represent, from 2001 on, It really is not going to make a difference for anyone in when this Legislature was filled almost entirely withB .C. terms of the care that they receive. The problems that are Liberals…. The area thatI now represent had one failing there are not going to be solved by this. for the seniors after another. All that it does is provide an opportunity for the gov- I said during the 2005 election that the failure of this ernment to stand up and say, "Oh, don't worry. There's a government in looking after our seniors was consistent bill that somehow looks after that," and hope that people and that it was comprehensive, and everybody knew don't ever have to experience it and find out that it that that was the case. Residential care beds were closed actually doesn't provide any of the protections that one in Invermere. They were closed in Golden. You had the would presume were there with the legislation. whole hospital closed in Kimberley. The impact of those It's in no way a bill of rights. It is an expression of closures was profound. sentiment, and I would say that it's a cynical expression It wasn't just the closures. It was the fact that people if you don't have the resources that are needed to pro- were forced to move from the community because beds vide things like the dignified care — the environment that had been there were no longer there. It was addi- that promotes an individual's health, safety and dignity. tional costs. It was changes to the supports in home that If you don't have those things funded properly and hadn't been thought through. It was a significant prob- put in place, then a statement which gives the impression lem for one senior after another. that you have a right to it, I think, is cynical. It wouldn't be the first piece of cynical legislation or cynical com- [C. Trevena in the chair.] munications from this government. I think all of us who worked here between 2005 and People in the area that I represent, in Columbia River– 2009 remember the stage where we went through the Revelstoke, simply rejected the idea that you should be five great goals. It was essentially a statement — five making those changes and impacting seniors in the way things that the B.C. Liberal government was failing on. that they have been impacted. I think it's significant to You had this statement that they would say again and know that that was not what people had voted for in again and again to try to get the public to believe that 2001. There was a pretty clear promise — again, speaking there was going to be some movement on those issues, to the emptiness of words; in fact, it was there in the and there wasn't. New Era document — about providing additional units. 1696 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

I think the promise in the 2001 document from the per day that are available to people in residential care are B.C. Liberals was that there would be 5,000 residential simply inadequate, and that is something that is said to care beds by 2006. Well, there weren't. There still aren't. me again and again. There has been a net loss in residential care beds. Now It's something that we have pushed the government on. the government mixes up all sorts of different things If you're serious about improving seniors care in residences, that they've built and tries to say that in some way then you have to deal with that issue. The standard for hours they've met that commitment, but they haven't. There is per day looking after particular patients is the lowest, in the lowest number of residential beds per capita in the British Columbia, of any jurisdiction in Canada. country here in British Columbia. What that causes is real problems. You have staff Certainly, the experience in the area that I represent who are expected to dress people. You have staff who is that the residential beds that are there simply are not are expected to help with toileting, to help with feeding, adequate. Facilities that were built by not-for-profit to do changing, to look after medication. You have staff and then by the government were closed. If they were who have to look after wounds, very often. to be replaced, they tended to be replaced by privately You would hope that there would be time, as well, run facilities. That's something that runs contrary to for some personal interaction for people in care. That any suggestion that seniors' interests are being seriously can only happen if there is adequate staffing, and you looked after. only will get adequate staffing if you have in place rules So you had and you continue to have — but especially around the amount of time that each patient gets. I think in that first number of years — a reorganization of sen- that in B.C. it's something close to 3.4 hours. If it's not iors care that was high-handed, and it was sloppy, and 3.4, it's close to that, certainly. What people will tell me it caused real hardship. The stories are well known by again and again is that it's simply not enough time to do people in this House and by people in the province. It the job properly. caused real hardship for seniors. Clearly, that's some- It's all well and good to come up with a piece of legis- thing that has been spoken of many, many times here. lation that talks about an environment that promotes Between 2002 and 2004 there were 26 residential the individual's health, safety and dignity, but if you put facilities that were closed, which is 15 percent of the beds. no money towards the problem that everyone knows is What it created, of course, is not only real problems for there, if you're not going to deal with that issue seriously, seniors but a political embarrassment for this govern- then they are empty words from a government that has ment and a weakness for them that continues. a long history of empty words without the substance to Now we have this act, which is a number of statements actually solve the problem. that talk about how seniors should be treated. In fact, if You have, for many, many people, standards that you're going to find solutions, then you have to put the include one bath a week. What you hear again and again resources where they are needed. are the complexities if somebody misses the bath, having In 2009, again, you had promises by the B.C. Liberals, to go for a period of time…. Again, that comes down to by this government, around health care. I guess, to put it standards that aren't high enough and to a lack of staffing, in context, essentially — just to go back to this most recent to the fact that you don't have enough people there to election — you did have four main commitments. provide the care that is needed. [1530] I don't want to give the impression that the challenges The first one was that the deficit would be kept to $495 for providing all of these services is anything more million. Well, it wasn't. It's up to $3.5 billion, if you don't than a real challenge, but it is a challenge that British include the HST payoff from the federal government. I Columbians say that they want their government to think a second point that was made in the election was meet. They want to make sure that seniors are looked around having no HST. That's what the B.C. Liberals after in the way that they need to be. said. The opposite is happening. You had commitments What we have seen and many in British Columbia around education that weren't kept, and you have com- have seen is that the public and non-profit care homes mitments around health care that haven't been kept. that we built in our communities are the homes that Again, you have seniors that I represent that are being the government has tried to close. They instead try to impacted by the fact that those commitments are not replace them with private, for-profit facilities.O bviously, kept. None of the problems that they have are going to in certain situations — I would argue that education is be solved by this piece of legislation or the statements one of them and certainly health care is the other — the of intent that are included in it. The improvements will profit motive is one that can distort how the service is only come when the resources that are needed are going provided, and that's a problem. to be put there. [1535] One of the key difficulties that seniors and seniors' I think that with seniors care, the care home has to be families talk to me about is the fact that they feel there focused entirely on the service that they are providing to is a lack of staffing at many of these facilities. The hours the senior. That has to be the focus, and I just can't see Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1697

how the profit motive would work in that circumstance. The example that we talked about recently in theH ouse Certainly, it can't work unless you have strict enforce- was the removal of a speech pathologist for Invermere ment, and we shouldn't be fooled in any way that this and for Golden, a part-time position — a position that, so-called bill of rights for adults in care provides that. if you were to believe what the B.C. Liberals said during First, as I have said before, it comes with modifiers the election, would be retained. They promised that — like that you can have your safety and dignity looked there would be no health cuts. But immediately after the after if it's practical — and with explicitly no ability to election Interior Health said: "Well, we have to cut $30 have any right of action. So we shouldn't fool ourselves million to $40 million." The government said, "Go ahead that this provides any protection as we increasingly get and cut," and this is one of the positions that has been private facilities. cut. I think we also have to recognize the fact that we have [1540] forced many seniors into facilities by cuts to home support. The government will frame it as being some sort of an Since 2001 we've seen a 24 percent drop in the number of improvement, but the fact of the matter is that instead of people that actually receive support, and we've seen a 12 having a speech pathologist working with individuals in percent cut in the overall hours available to them. That's Columbia House or in Durand Manor in Golden, you're where the population that…. The government recognizes going to have a video linkup where, presumably, some- a population of seniors that is growing. body looks on TV and somehow the work is done with What seniors are telling me is that they simply don't that sort of a setup. have access to the support that they used to have and that For seniors or for those that are living in the residential they need. Therefore, people are forced into facilities in care facility, the impacts are real. The speech pathologist a time before they would choose because they don't get not only deals with trying to help people relearn or maintain the home support that they've been looking for. their ability to speak, but they also will look at things like Again, it's an example of where the government is swallowing. They will feel, as individuals try to swallow…. saying one thing….If you look at what they said during For those that have had strokes or those that are suffering the 2001 election and during the 2005 election, the from Alzheimer's, what people here will know is that very B.C. Liberals talked about trying to keep people in their often one of the real complications that will be there is homes with more home support, but when the time around swallowing. came for them to actually make that happen, the exact What this gentleman did, this Mr. Coe, is he would opposite happened. You see home supports that had go…. One of the assessments he would do is around the existed removed. patient's ability to swallow. Then with his assessments, It's always framed — and we see it here in question there would be modifications in the types of foods and period — as a change or an improvement or adminis- the consistency of the liquids that were fed to the people trative cuts. However it's framed, the fact is that for the in the residential facilities that I mentioned. person who is actually impacted, it's a cut. It makes their Those are real tangible things. Those are things that life more difficult, and very often it will force people if you get rid of that service, you make somebody's life into facilities before they would choose to go. So that's worse. If you retain them, you make somebody's life a problem. better. What we have with this legislation will make no As I said, it's well and good to have statements of senti- difference to anybody's life. It is essentially just there as ment, but statements of sentiment really don't provide any a communication plan. That's the frustrating part about answer for people that's meaningful. You need to have this legislation — that it won't actually make a difference something that's actually going to change somebody's life. to anybody's life, and despite promises that there would As I said, we were promised just as recently as last May not be cuts that would impact seniors, there have been in Columbia River–Revelstoke that we would have no cuts cuts again. to our health care if the B.C. Liberals returned to govern- Yesterday in the House we talked about a gentleman ment. But what we have now seen is that having returned who is going to be in Columbia House. At the age of to government, there's about, in Interior Health alone, $30 39 he had a stroke. The stroke has been devastating, of million to $40 million worth of cuts coming per year. course. He had a child on the way. He had family to look Where services were there, where there had been after, and now he is going to spend an extended period promises that they would continue, those services are of time, likely, in Columbia House. being taken away, and they impact people that are in There was hope with a speech pathologist that he residential care. They are people who had a service, need would be able to say his children's names. He had made a service, and it's being removed. So at the same time progress. When he had to go to Calgary for more treat- that you have a government bringing forward a piece of ment and for a number of weeks didn't have the help legislation that talks about things that are going to give from the speech pathologist, he regressed. an individual a healthy outcome, you have the actual Now he has come back and found that the speech service removed. pathologist that he needs has been removed. So there 1698 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

are issues for him around the ability to speak, which is G. Coons: I rise to speak to Bill 17, the Health Statutes hugely important, and there are issues around his ability (Residents' Bill of Rights) Amendment Act. I notice that to swallow and make progress learning how to swallow the minister, in her opening remarks, talked about their again. commitment to quality care, their impressive invest- So you have real problems that aren't addressed. ments and their commitment to 5,000 beds. So in my Instead, we get a piece of legislation which essentially comments about Bill 17 — about the acute care impacts lays out sentiment, and we shouldn't confuse the two. on seniors, the home care, home support, residential The only way that we're going to make progress is if we care — I'd like to sort of look at some of the so-called deal with real issues. Yet again and again, this government commitments that we've seen over the last seven or eight goes to expressions of sentiment because they don't want years. to deal with the real issues. You know, the purpose of this bill, as the minister said in I made a list of seven things that, if you go to community her remarks, is to give a bill of rights to adults living in care. meetings, seniors talk about. These are the things that This looks at seniors and other residents in care, including seniors who speak to me, that their families who speak long-term mental health substitutes, community living, to me, feel are important things to do. hospice, acquired-injury facilities. The main purpose, as The first one would be to cancel the increase in residential I see it, is having a bill of rights and having a list of these care rates. It's unbelievable to me that we have sentiments rights for the adults posted on a wall when they move expressed in this bill about keeping people healthy, and into the residential facility care. then you try to raise an additional $56 million from sen- The rights that we see under Bill 17 are basic rights iors by raising their rates. To me, that seems just absolutely that we would expect to be available without having to incredible. It seems absolutely incredible at the same time go through legislation. Residents in care already have that you're cutting taxes for banks $100 million. I think to the majority of the rights listed in this bill. most British Columbians, that contrast is just unbelievable. If we look at some of the rights…. It's the right to a I'll just quickly go through the list, because I see I'm care plan developed specifically for them; to be treated going to run out of time here. The other thing that sen- in a manner and to live in an environment that promotes iors and their families talk about is improving the ratio, their health, safety and dignity; to be protected from as I've said, of caregivers to residents in residential care. abuse and neglect; to have their lifestyle choices respected That comes up again and again as an issue that this gov- and supported and their personal privacy respected; to ernment has not addressed. As I say, it's one of a long receive visitors and communicate with visitors in private; list of areas where this government leads the country in to keep and display personal possessions, pictures and failure. furnishings in their own room. They're just things that I [1545] would think most British Columbians and seniors would The third is: increase the number of residential care expect to have available to them without having to go beds. That was a promise in 2001, a promise that wasn't through this piece of legislation. kept. There have been cuts, closures — all the exact I hope this is a sincere effort to improve the care of opposite of what was promised. And still you have wait-lists. residents, and with that comprehension, I will support You don't have enough space for people that need it. this bill. The fourth thing is the improved access to respite care. Again, I believe we have to look at and analyze how You have families that need this if they're going to retain we got to this position with the government presenting their own health. They need a place to get a break, and this bill and, again, how much consultation happened in so that's an area that needs improvement. this. We haven't heard from any members on the other As I've said, you have to increase the levels of home side, except the minister's opening remarks. How much care services. consultation was done? Who was consulted on this bill? A sixth issue is that you have to increase access and Who are the stakeholders that were brought into the pic- improve access to palliative care. We had beds that were ture? We don't know, and we don't know if anybody was there that were closed, and there was something pro- consulted. We don't know whether or not their input foundly wrong with that. has been taken into the components of the bill. The seventh thing is — and I know I'm going to run [1550] out of time before I have too much to say about it — that I look back to a couple of bills that the opposition put there is a lot of support for the idea of an independent forward a couple of years ago. The Representative for representative for seniors, an officer of this Legislature Seniors Act, 2007. Again, I see this bill echoing what the that is going to do good work fighting for seniors. That opposition put forward when we tried to improve systems is an idea that makes complete sense. of care and support for seniors and their families and the With that, I thank you for the opportunity to speak monitoring of programs and service. on seniors issues. It's something that I feel is profoundly This bill of rights that will be posted at care homes, a important. set of rules that people need to abide by — who's going Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1699

to be monitoring it? Who's going to ensure that the in communities all across our province. In the report, impact on seniors is taken into account? the government was criticized for inaccurately reporting Bill 17 reminds me of the Community Care and statistics on seniors care, including inflated bed numbers Assisted Living Amendment Act, 2007, that this side of and bed-count numbers. the House put forward a couple of years ago and that You know, this government, over the last seven years, looks at an accountability framework to protect seniors. has ignored calls from seniors, from families, from advo- The bill that we put forward mandated random manual cates, including the B.C. Medical Association, to follow inspection reports and ensured that the reports are public. through on expanding long-term care. Bill 17 looks at The list of rights for safety, health, and dignity is com- the bill of rights for residents, but again, I believe it's just prehensive. It's very clear. But I believe they're the kinds smoke and mirrors as far as the direction this govern- of statements that we would expect to be in place already ment needs to take. wherever somebody is living and whatever care they're [1555] currently experiencing. TheB .C. Medical Association says that this government When we look at seniors care throughout the prov- changed the terms of their original commitment and ince…. We went through the Conversation on Health. promise, to create the appearance that they did deliver. The closest, asI 've mentioned before in this House, in our The Medical Association in July 2007 said: "Since 2001 region was in Smithers, so I embarked on my own discus- this government has focused on increasing the number sion on health. I travelled to the communities in the Nass of assisted-living units. However, residential care beds and Valley and to Stewart and Prince Rupert, and along Haida assisted-living units are not interchangeable, because Gwaii and the central coast. Person after person, senior the care needs between residential and assisted-living after senior, elder after elder, expressed concerns about patients are different." the impacts of government policy on their care. So it's recognized by the Medical Association, and What came out of some of these discussions is that a this government still puts forth the premise that they've major concern is that seniors and elders are being looked at created and kept their promise for long-term-care beds, as forgotten souls. Long-term facilities and especially home and that's not the facts. support must be a priority. Having an eye for prevention This government has reduced home support, which and proactive care will save the system money. Increasing allows seniors to live independently at home, cutting the home support hours, including light housekeeping, will number of seniors receiving the services by 17 percent. keep our valued seniors in their homes longer and out of In Prince Rupert we've just had Acropolis Manor built. expensive hospital beds. The old one, to the chagrin of many in our community, Again, the seniors and the people I met with through- was torn down for a parking lot, and it could have been out the north coast seemed to look at the policies that used for other things, whether it's drug and treatment cen- this government has put in about seniors care to be a tres or for child care or other initiatives. What's happening real detriment to seniors. The North Central Municipal in the new Acropolis…. There's residential care happening Association, before it changed its name…. One of their in there. Again, it just opened in the last couple of months, top five goals was seniors care and services and having but there are some dilemmas going on. We see throughout long-term beds required in order to free up acute care the north the concern from seniors about residential care, beds. So it's been a major concern on the north coast. about acute care and their home care and home support. This act, this Bill 17, is a small step, mind you, but TheB .C. Ombudsman launched a provincewide investi- there's got to be the funding to go along with it. If we gation due to what's happening to seniors in this province. look at report after report, whether it's from the B.C. Again, reversing the damage done by this government Medical Association or other organizations, they've is a priority not only for this side of the House but for chronicled how over the last eight years there's been a the many advocates and seniors who have witnessed and crisis in seniors care. encountered a decade of broken promises. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released A care plan, a real care plan, a real bill of rights for a report, An Uncertain Future for Seniors. They're seniors, needs to include setting provincial minimum restructuring home and community care. They talk standards for direct care for residents at all facilities — about how this government…. The minister mentioned three or 3.2 hours — and building the 3,000 long-term- their 5,000-bed commitment in her opening remarks, care beds that this government said they would and but this report back in 2008 looked at how between 2001 has failed to create. A real bill of rights would look at and 2005 this government repeated their pledge to build expanding home care and appointing an independent 5,000 new long-term-care beds, a promise that they did seniors representative to oversee seniors care. not fulfil and that they continue to break. This bill,B ill 17, proposing a bill of rights, comes after The report actually says and uncovers that there are mounting controversy over the state of the province's actually 800 fewer beds available now than in 2001 for a long-term-care facilities. Again, we saw it last year in growing number of seniors who require residential care a series of articles in the Vancouver Sun. Chad Skelton 1700 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

found that nearly one in nine long-term-care facilities bill is just going to strengthen their commitment to qual- in the Lower Mainland had been classified as high risk ity care in British Columbia for seniors. But, you know, by government inspectors. Again, high-risk facilities we've seen how this government has failed seniors. B.C. are those considered by health authorities most likely is in seventh place in Canada in per-capita health care to violate government health and safety regulations and funding — a drop from second place in 2002. We've are subject to frequent inspections. gone from second to seventh place. Code oranges and So we start seeing where this bill might be coming code purples are signalling that hospitals are so severely from. It might be trying to cover up on the actions of overcrowded that they can't admit patients across B.C. this government over the last seven or eight years. Art They broke their promise to build 5,000 residential Kube, president of the National Pensioners and Senior care beds, and they continue to shut down seniors care Citizens association said that this proposed bill of rights, homes across the province, in spite of the commitment or in his mind, is largely a media relations exercise. This the statements by the minister in her opening remarks. bill of rights is hard to oppose, but we have to look at the While shutting down seniors care homes, the govern- premise for this government putting it on the floor. ment also cut support to help seniors stay in their homes Kube adds, "They are flouting the law before they pass longer. In Prince Rupert we've seen it over the last four or it," saying that "the province is underfunding residen- five years — a decimation of the home support program tial care facilities and in some cases forcing seniors to and cutting the hours. It got to a point where management move from one facility to another." He continues: "I'm were getting bonuses for reducing the number of hours that not saying that beds shouldn't be closed if the facility seniors had in the region. The number of seniors receiving is outdated, but the trauma of moving old people is so home support has dropped 24 percent since 2001. great, it shouldn't be done. The beds should only be If we look at the BCMA again, the medical association, closed through attrition when people pass away." in their report of September 2008, Improving Access to The rights mentioned in this bill, in section 3, are pretty Acute Care Services, they look at how a lack of community obvious. I went through a couple of them. We look at care has resulted in seniors receiving an inappropriate level "Rights to participation and freedom of expression." You of care in a hospital instead of the community. They say it's know, an adult person in care has "the right to participate estimated that at least 10 percent of acute care capacity, and in his or her own care" and to freely express their views, a rate as high as 20 percent in some hospitals, is being used to "participate in the development and implementation" by people requiring an alternate level of care. of their own care plan and "participate in a resident or So again we're seeing access to acute care being decimated family council" and to have their family representative over the last six or seven years. The provincewide acute care participating. "Rights to transparency and accountability." capacity has decreased by 15 percent, the BCMA says. "(a) to have ready access to copies of all laws, rules and The Fraser Health Authority in their service plan has policies affecting the service provided…" to them. a bed-to-patient ratio of 1.8 acute beds for every thousand [1600] people, less than the Canadian average of three. If we Now, you would think that this would be available to look at section 3 in Bill 17, it deals with the rights of those anybody. We don't need a bill of rights. This is common in care. But if we look at residential care, Stats Canada sense and a no-brainer. So when we look at this Bill 17, in their report that they did in 2007 said that in 2005-06 the residents bill of rights, it's pretty common sense. B.C. spent the least nationally on residential care on a per-capita basis for those aged 65 and over and had the H. Bains: I seek leave to make an introduction. lowest number of residential care beds per capita. This government goes on a premise, a false premise, of Leave granted. a commitment to quality care for seniors, and they put forth Bill 17, a list of rights that should be found in any Introductions by Members care facility — putting it through in legislation without the backgrounder or funding necessary. H. Bains: In the House we have some very distin- [1605] guished community leaders: Dr. Hakim Bhullar; Dr. If we look at the B.C. Medical Association in their Dalbir Singh Bhaniwal; Jaswinder Singh Parmar and Re-Building B.C.'s Home and Community Care System, his father, visiting them from India, Mr. Surindar Singh called Bridging the Islands, they look at the number of Parmar; Gagandeep Gill — they also call him "Dimple." residential beds between 2001 and 2007 decreasing by Please help me welcome them to this House. 553, from 25,420 to 24,867 — below the over 30,000 beds that should have been in place in 2006, had this government Debate Continued kept their promise of a 5,000-bed commitment. Now also, if we look at long-term care facilities — and G. Coons: Again, I have to go back to the minister we talked about the high-risk violations that we saw in and her opening remarks, when she looks at how this 2008 — in British Columbia as a whole, there continues Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1701

to be a lack of residential care space. Alternate-level- diversion from what this government has been doing of-care rates in B.C. are staggering and outrageous. In across the province to seniors for the last seven or eight Northern Health, there's a shortage. The rate inN orthern years. Health is 18.6. In Vancouver Island Health Authority, If we look at home health care, the B.C. Medical the rate is 16 percent. In Interior Health Authority, it Association has comments on that in their Bridging the was 13.4 percent. Islands report of May 2008. They indicate that B.C. is When we have a commitment by this government, it one of two provinces where the number of home care seems that over the last seven or eight years it's just been users has decreased, despite an aging population, while broken promises. home care spending went up. They say this suggests The Auditor General has gotten into the picture, that "access to home care services has been increasingly when they looked at it in a report in 2008, Home and restricted for only patients with higher medical needs." Community Care Services: Meeting Needs and Preparing Instead of looking after seniors in their home environ- for the Future. The Auditor specifically examined the ment, this government, under their policies, are forcing Ministry of Health's role in providing stewardship for them to go into hospital situations or care facilities. the system, and they were very critical of this govern- [1610] ment's lack of stewardship, poor planning, no up-to-date They look at the number of people receiving home capacity plan, a lack of accountability and transparency. support in B.C. It's dropped 24 percent between 2001 The minister in her opening comments talks about and 2005, and the home support hours dropped by 12 how the bill of rights will improve transparency and percent. What we've seen in our communities is that accountability in care facilities. I don't understand how support services such as grooming, housekeeping, meal a piece of paper on a wall listing the rights of the patients preparation services have been eliminated, putting more is going to increase this government's transparency and pressure, more stress on our seniors and not giving them accountability where it's lacking in just about everything the support they need at home. that they do. What we've seen recently from this government is home Some of the Auditor General's lowlights include that care costing more. The fee increase that this government in 2005, the five regional health authorities agreed to put in of $54 million for residential care is bad public transition from their existing management information policy. Not only are seniors seeing residential care now system to establish their own client information systems more expensive; the access to it is limited. to meet more comprehensive reporting requirements. Under this government, we've seen MSP premiums, However, only one of the health authorities has done Medical Services Plan premiums, increase by 50 percent. so. So the ministry's access to information on home and At the same time that these premiums were increased, community care is at risk. It does not have the informa- they cut services covered by MSP. They cut eye examina- tion it needs to plan and monitor the system effectively. tions, physiotherapy, chiropractic care, massage therapy, We have the Auditor General, we have the B.C. visits to naturopaths. Medical Association, we have seniors throughout the Again, the B.C. Medical Association…. I keep going province, and we have report after report indicating that back to the B.C. Medical Association because they've this government has failed to meet what we have to do had lots to say over the last couple of years about how for our seniors. government policy is impacting health care and seniors Again, I go back to the consultation for Bill 17. We on in this province. this side of the House don't hear or see any members A few of the key quotes from the May 2008 report on the other side standing up and reading their briefing from the B.C. Medical Association. One of them is, notes or talking about this bill. You know, who is consul- "British Columbia's home and community care service tated? Who did you consultate with? is in a state of decline. While the reduction in residential care beds would not necessarily have been wrong if Interjection. accompanied by an increase in community-based care… data show that there's a simultaneous decrease in home G. Coons: Consult with. Thank you, Bill. I'll e-mail care and home support" — the very services that are you that. suggested as most effective in promoting healthy living When we look at this, it was the B.C. Medical Association, at home for seniors. where seniors groups…. We haven't heard. The audit con- You look at this bill before us, and you wonder why clusion for the Auditor General: "The Ministry of Health it's on the floor — whether it was pressure from groups; is not adequately fulfilling its stewardship role in ensuring whether it was a symbol, that they realized they had to that the home and community care system has the capacity do something, a band-aid approach. Again, was the B.C. to meet the needs of the population." Medical Association consulted in this? I would hope so. We have this bill before us, Bill 17, the residents' bill TheBC MA says: "In 2001 this…government committed to of rights — you know, just a government band-aid, a create 5,000 new…beds by 2006, but in fact, the number 1702 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

decreased by 1,464." Now, I'm not too sure who people They don't want a band-aid approach — a bill of rights want to believe out there — the government spin or the that has no meat to it, no substance. They are looking B.C. Medical Association, which is saying that beds were for a commitment from this government and all gov- not created. ernments to have acute care, home care, home support and residential care that meet the needs of all British Interjection. Columbians. With that, thank you, hon. Chair, for the opportunity G. Coons: It is a tough choice. to discuss Bill 17. The B.C. Medical Association says the number of residential care beds decreased by over 1,400. They say K. Corrigan: Well, I am certainly supportive of the that the government "must honour its original promise" rights that are set out in Bill 17, but I do reflect that this and that these beds must be "(a) a net increase in actual certainly came after a great deal of pressure. I recall beds relative to the number of beds available in 2001 seeing that pressure over the last several years from and (b) above and beyond any increases to the number many organizations. Nevertheless, I think it is a small of assisted-living units or other types of home and com- step in the right direction. munity care services." I don't think anybody can disagree that it is important When we look at the minister, in her opening remarks, to have rights for seniors in care. They should have the saying that the government's over-5,000-bed commitment right to have a care plan developed specifically for them. for seniors across the province…. We have the B.C. They should have the right to health, safety and dignity — Medical Association contradicting that. They also go on to be treated in a manner and to live in an environment to say: "The findings suggest a system in decline, largely that promotes their health, safety and dignity; to be pro- because of deteriorating access to services." tected from abuse and neglect; to have their lifestyles and Again, both physician and case manager surveys choices respected, personal privacy respected; to be able consistently stated that things had become worse. We to have visitors and display possessions, and so on — and look at the number of beds in residential care facilities. the right to participate in their own care. As they decline, access to them also has become more All the rights are admirable rights, and I think it is a limited. positive thing that the rights also have to be posted in The physicians survey, which was a part of the Medical all care facilities. I do recall organizations pressuring for Association report…. I wonder if the physicians were those rights, as well as the ability of residents and their consulted also — or other health stakeholders, or seniors, families to be fully aware of what the rights are. for that matter. When asked to select the top three But when you look through this list of rights, which challenges in home and community care, the most are admirable, it's clear that, with the possible exception common response and the one cited by the majority of of complaints submitted under the Patient Care Quality respondents was the insufficient number of long-term Review Board Act, there is no cost to the provincial gov- care beds. ernment of listing these rights and enacting these rights. It [1615] doesn't cost the provincial government any money at all. Sixty-three percent of the physicians that were con- Unfortunately, though, having these rights available, sulted in the survey said that that was a concern — listed, posted…. They're empty rights if they are not insufficient number of long-term care beds. This was accompanied by the appropriate resources to monitor followed by impeded patient flow from the hospital and enforce the rights and, in fact, if they're not accom- to the community and inadequate resources to home panied by the ability of seniors or other people in care support. to have access to the type of care that they need. You We look at this Bill 17. It's supportable, but we on this have to be able to get into the appropriate type of place- side of the House wonder why it's before us when there ment and the appropriate type of care in the first place are just commonsense actions that should be taken. for these rights to mean anything. Just about concluding here. TheB .C. Health Coalition [1620] launched a campaign, and they called for immediate gov- I'm very concerned because I believe access to home ernment action on seniors care. This was last January — and community health care services in B.C. has declined 2009. They launched their campaign: "Broken Promises, significantly since 2001 and that many, many seniors are a provincewide seniors health…campaign that is calling not able to get the kind of care that they need to when on the provincial government to provide quality, access- they need it. ible health care and improve necessary services such as I have closely read a report, which I think is an excel- home support and long-term residential care." lent piece of work by the Canadian Centre for Policy They met with seniors over the last year, they say, across Alternatives as part of their economic security project, the province. There's a crisis in seniors health care, and called An Uncertain Future for Seniors: B.C.'s Restructuring they want immediate action from this government. of Home and Community Health Care, 2001-2008. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1703

I would say about the CCPA that I have read their That's to be contrasted with residential care. Residential work and followed that organization for years. One thing care is a far different thing.I t's more expensive, and it's more about their work is that in all the years that they have intensive in terms of the care that's provided to the residents. been producing their reports and doing their analysis, With residential care there is 24-hour nursing supervision I have never heard their credibility in any way under- and care for people with very complex needs. I've heard mined. Every report that I've ever seen…. I've never seen some of the fellow members describing some of those needs. anybody saying that their analysis is not valid. So yes, It can include bathing. It can include eating. It can be for they are a progressive organization, but their research is people who cannot even turn over in their beds without help. sound and unassailable. So we're talking two completely different groups of people. The CCPA is not the only one that has raised con- In 2006 the government acknowledged that it had not cerns about home and community care. Organizations met its target and then changed the goalpost to 2008, but like the B.C. Medical Association, which has been men- the target remained 5,000 beds. tioned earlier, the B.C. Auditor General's office, the As mentioned earlier, even considering assisted-living Ombudsman's office, theB .C. Care Providers Association units as beds, they didn't reach that target, but that also and the Centre for Health Services and Policy Research doesn't reflect the fact that the number of beds should have at UBC have all raised significant concerns about home been adjusted to reflect the growth in the elderly popula- and community care. tion. If you just look at the population growth alone for Certainly, it's not just those high-profile organizations. seniors 75 and older, that 5,000-bed target should have As well, it's health organizations like the B.C. Health increased to close to 7,000 beds by 2008 and a projected Coalition, which was mentioned earlier, that stand up almost 10,000 beds by 2010 and should continue to be for seniors in this province. It's seniors' family members increased as long as the population continues to age. and friends. I also want to talk specifically about what the impact When I was working at the Hospital Employees Union of the closing of beds and the change in the nature of as a researcher, we certainly had dozens and dozens of beds has meant for my community of Burnaby, which families that came to us and dozens of families that went has been one of the hardest hit places — and I think, to the B.C. Health Coalition, hundreds of them that actually, is the hardest hit community in this province were concerned about the care that their senior relatives in terms of bed numbers for residential care. were receiving in facilities across this province. Burnaby in 2001 had 1,676 residential care beds. One of the problems is that home and community care Those are the beds for people who need a far greater level isn't covered by the Canada Health Act, so there are no of assistance in looking after their daily care. In 2008 national standards, no minimum service levels, no min- my community had only 1,403 residential care beds. So imum staffing levels. So there is no right…. There are the in my community 273 residential care beds were lost in other rights under the Canada Health Act. There are no that time period from 2001 to 2008. rights to community health care. In addition, we've heard Assisted-living beds. There were no assisted-living beds, lots of references to the fees being charged for these services, publicly paid beds, in 2001. In 2008 there were 187. and sometimes they are out of range for seniors. So we lost 273 residential care beds or long-term care During the 2001 election the government — the B.C. beds while only gaining 187 assisted-living beds, lower Liberals, then prior to becoming government — made levels of care. Overall, even if you just look at bed num- a promise that they were going to build 5,000 new non- bers and ignore the fact that you're comparing apples profit residential care beds by 2006. But today there and oranges, in Burnaby there are 86 fewer beds in 2008 are actually far fewer residential care beds. According than there was in 2001. That's my community. to CCPA's report, there are 804 fewer residential care Another change has been that in 2002 B.C.'s long-term beds. In their place there are 4,393 new assisted-living care act restricted access to residential care to those with units that have been added since 2001, although there complex care needs — severe cognitive impairment, are lower staffing levels and support levels. dementia, multiple disabilities and complex medical So instead of the 5,000 new residential care beds that problems. Again, I thank the CCPA for the great and were promised, there are only about 3,500 net new assisted- in-depth information on this. living units that have been added to the public system. This policy was based on the view that the people that The difference between assisted-living beds and residen- had less complex needs could be more ably supported tial care beds is very significant.A ssisted-living beds are for with home services. Unfortunately, though, the idea that people who have low or moderate levels of disability. They we're going to have all this great home service has not require some daily personal assistance to live independ- come to fruition, and the access to home health services ently, but they can live somewhat independently as long as has also decreased. they get help with some things like medications, perhaps, [1630] or bathing or some other care. I just want to talk for a second about the regional [1625] differences in residential care. Not only has access to 1704 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

regional care decreased, but it's decreased unevenly over B.C. Care Providers Association, which is comprised the province. When I talk about access, I mean the change of both non-profit and for-profit care providers, has in number of residential care beds per thousand seniors, stated that staffing levels and training in residential care aged 75 and over, between 2001 and 2008. If you take facilities have not kept pace with the higher needs of into account the fact that the population has increased residents. In addition, they are very concerned — and and the number of beds there are per thousand seniors this report was a while ago, but I know this concern age 75 and older…. This is for residential care beds, for continues — that some facilities are running deficits, as those that have higher needs. the government funding doesn't even cover the cost of The Northern Health Authority has seen that the the various negotiated wage and benefit costs. change in access to residential care since 2001 is a 35.1 I want to talk for a second about the shift to for-profit percent decline. The change in access to residential delivery. I'm very concerned about the fact that there care beds since 2001 in the Vancouver Coastal Health has been a huge shift in ownership from not-for-profit Authority is a loss of 27.2 percent. The change in access facilities to for-profit facilities. That's directly as a result to residential care since 2001 in the Interior Health of the policies of this government. Most of the closures Authority is a loss of 20.6 percent. In the Vancouver that have happened in long-term care facilities have Island Health Authority there has been an 11.8 percent been at not-for-profit sites, and most of the openings decline in access to residential care since 2001. In the have occurred at for-profit sites. Fraser Health Authority there has been an 18.2 percent I recall receiving many e-mails from organizations loss in access to residential care since 2001. that were bidding on contracts, wanted to have not-for- That's an appalling record. It's reflected in the terrible profit contracts, were not-for-profit organizations, and problems that communities are having, community they were simply being, from their perspective, shut hospitals are having in being unable to find residential out of the process. Between 2000 and 2008 capacity in care for people that are in hospitals and ready to be dis- for-profit facilities increased by over 20 percent, while charged to residential care. It creates another huge and capacity in not-for-profit facilities declined by over 10 expensive problem, in that we then have bed-blockers in percent. the hospital who have no place to go and end up staying In addition to the ownership issues, where capital fund- in hospital for longer than they should. ing grants for residential care facilities have favoured private I want to talk for a second about how B.C. compares to facilities, in either for-profit or not-for-profit there is other provinces in residential care. In 2001 B.C. was just contracting out in many, many facilities in this province. above average compared to other provinces in terms of It's occurring primarily, although not exclusively, in the access to residential care for people 75 and over. By 2008 for-profit facilities. this province had the second-lowest rate of access after Today the hands-on care of residents is contracted New Brunswick. Along with Alberta, B.C. had the greatest out in 39 facilities, or 14 percent of all residential care decline in access to residential care between 2001 and 2008. facilities. In addition, 107 facilities, or 30 percent, have As I said earlier, the promise was that much of the contracted out support services like dietary, laundry and pressure on long-term-care beds and even assisted-liv- cleaning services. The legislation that allowed that not ing beds would be mitigated, would be lessened, because only provides employers with the ability to enter into we were going to provide home health services, which commercial contracts with third-party providers who is an admirable aim. But again, if you don't provide the pay wages and benefits below industry standards, but resources and you don't actually fund the programs, it also allows them to re-tender contracts with 60 days' then you're not going to be able to provide the services notice and hire replacement contractors, often with an that are needed in order to take the pressure off the long- entirely new workforce. term-care facilities. When I was at the HEU, I saw repeated examples of In the mid-1990s B.C. was a leader in the provision this flipping of contracts, and this is not good for our of home health services, which included home nursing seniors. When they get used to the care by one group and rehabilitation. However, by 2003 B.C. had fallen whose work is tenuous, who work for a certain amount well below the national average in terms of per-capita of time…. If they are organized, if they end up getting a spending on these services. union contract, the contractor simply walks away from The promised increase in home support has not mater- the contract or it is flipped to another care provider. This ialized. On the contrary, according to the CCPA study, is certainly not good for patient care. between 2001 and 2007 there was a 30 percent decrease in I want to say, as well, that it is very difficult when you access to home support services for seniors over 75. There have this kind of situation in our long-term-care field, is also an 11 percent decrease in access to home nursing, particularly with residential care, where the residents which is a key service for those with significant health are, in many cases, very unable to look after themselves. concerns who want to remain in their own homes. When you have flipping of contracts and you have the [1635] privatization of care, then the monitoring and inspection Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1705

becomes absolutely critical. This is another area where needs are? Who knows better than the people who work this government has entirely failed. there about what is needed by the residents? I remember talking to a licensing officer a couple of years Research shows that if direct-care staff are encouraged ago who was working on Vancouver Island. That licensing to provide input and are supported to provide quality care, officer told me that she was responsible for inspections of they'll be more successful in providing residents with the long-term-care facilities and all community care facilities individualized care that they require. In addition, we need essentially on her own, working with one other person, for to make sure that we have the educational standards and the whole top half of Vancouver Island. continuing professional development needed for quality [1640] care. As the frailty of residents of long-term-care facilities I asked her about whether or not, because she had this increases, we need to make sure that the people working great area of responsibility, she was able to do the regu- with them are qualified to look after them. lar inspections, unannounced inspections, that she was I mentioned earlier my concern about the shift to for- supposed to be doing, that were her responsibility under profit delivery. I think that the people who work in long- the act. She said: "There's not a chance in the world that term-care facilities have directly experienced the impact the regular inspections are happening, because I am so of contracting-out on quality of care. That experience is overworked and so under-resourced that all I can do is echoed in the research on privatization and the change in try to respond to complaints that are made." quality when ownership shifts to private, for-profit facilities. Instead of having a good system of monitoring and [1645] overseeing the system upfront, she was responding to Privatization and contracting-out has been repeatedly complaints and problems and was unable to get in there linked to poor resident health outcomes. Again, the flip- and see places before the problems happened. To me, ping of contracts in our facilities is contributing to the lack that's an unacceptable way to run the system and, again, of continuity of care and decline in quality of health care. points back to the fact that if you don't resource the We need to increase the access to not-for-profit resi- system appropriately, if you don't put the resources in to dential care. The substitution of not-for-profit, long-term- protect our seniors, then the rights that are being listed care beds to assisted living — it has not been effective. in Bill 17 are empty rights. There's certainly a benefit of assisted living for some I want to spend a few minutes talking about some of people, but what is lacking is the adequate number of the things that I think you do have to do if you want publicly funded residential care beds. to improve our long-term-care facilities and put the Again, I return to the real concern that so many people resources in that I have been talking about and that are are staying in acute care beds for too long a period of necessary in order to make these rights that are men- time before they're being placed in a residential care tioned have some relevance to what is actually happen- bed. I note that very recently, partly as part of the cost- ing. First of all, I think it's absolutely crucial that we have cutting by the Fraser Health Authority, dozens of beds adequate staffing and adequate quality of care in long- in my community hospital, Burnaby Hospital, have now term facilities. been converted from acute care beds to long-term-care I know that many of the staff at some of the long- beds because of this huge pressure and the lack of long- term-care facilities have noticed the impact of low staff- term-care beds. ing levels. Care aides were reporting that they often had no time to turn residents, so that more were ending up A. Dix: It's an honour to rise in this House and speak with bed sores. Others were noting that they didn't have to Bill 17, which is the health statutes amendment act, enough time to properly feed residents who required which contains what has been described as the residents extra assistance and encouragement with their meals bill of rights, which is described in the legislation. and fluids. Still others talked about there not being The legislation attempts, in effect, to establish rights to enough activities and no rehab staff to mobilize and health, safety and dignity in residential care facilities across work with residents who had just come back from acute British Columbia. Obviously, this affects, in terms of the care after having a stroke or a fall. population of people in residential care, a large number If you don't adequately staff and adequately resource of seniors in British Columbia. It also, of course, affects long-term-care facilities, then you have a downward others who require residential care and stay in residential spiral for the residents. care facilities. In addition, you certainly need to have a good work The bill also suggests…. These are important questions, environment that will contribute to the quality of care. because really, the important element of health care in You need to have teams. You need to include all the this regard and the important element of any bill that health workers in planning and supporting care. purports to expand the rights of individuals is the capacity Some care aides said that they were not consulted on of individuals to express those rights — to have the right to resident care plans. Who knows better than the people get the care that is laid out or suggested by the existence who are working in facilities about what the residents' of the rights. 1706 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

The bill also talks about the rights to participation and The B.C. Care Providers Association expressed, I freedom of expression. These issues — as you know, hon. think, strong concern about issues with regard to staffing Speaker, because these are all rights that we would hope levels — both the nature and inconsistency of those that anyone in our society, but particularly people who staffing levels and, in fact, the funding levels for staff- might be vulnerable, who are staying in care homes and ing that exist in the province of British Columbia and who are in many ways dependent on others…. These are the lack of information available to groups and to care rights that we would naturally expect all individuals to homes, both the public, non-profit and the private care have, regardless of the existence of a bill designed to pro- homes, about funding levels from the provincial govern- tect them. Nonetheless, in recent times there has been ment. They've expressed those views, and other groups an increasing, I think, need to address serious issues and have expressed those views. shortcomings in seniors care in British Columbia. Most notably, of course, the dramatic failings of the Indeed, the government has, in this regard, done a residential care system have been put into context — and unique thing, bringing together groups who might not it's really very much the context for Bill 17 and maybe the ordinarily agree on some of the detailed issues involved reason why it's before the House now — by the ombuds- in residential care — groups such as the representatives of person launching an investigation. We've changed legis- workers, be it the Hospital Employees Union or the BCNU; lation, as you know, recently in this House to change the groups representing the care homes themselves, including name of the Ombudsman to the ombudsperson. the B.C. Care Providers Association; groups representing The ombudsperson launched that investigation as a professional organizations, like the BCMA. They have all, result of the dramatic failings of the system — in fact, the in recent times, brought forward reports and recommen- lack of respect for the existing rights that all residents of dations highly critical of the status of residential care today. residential care homes should have in British Columbia. In addition to this, as we know, there have been a The ombudsperson launched an investigation in August series of incidents and problems at care homes across 2008. the province that have highlighted, I think, the need to What is interesting about that recommendation, con- protect residents and to protect and, indeed, to improve trary to what is suggested in terms of the government's dramatically the quality of residential care in British introduction of this bill…. The government suggested, Columbia. when it introduced this bill, that things were going well I think, for example, of my colleague from Cariboo in care homes and that this would be a document that North, who knows this. This is a critical issue in terms would assist in that. The ombudsperson, in her recent of not just the notional existence of rights in theory but report — she has yet to release, of course, the final report of rights in practice. — said that the investigation of seniors care that was [1650] launched in August 2008 received an unprecedented In the case of one of the communities he represents, public response. Williams Lake, really there's only one option in residen- Unprecedented public response. Why is that? That is tial care. In that case, clearly, the idea that people can because, unfortunately, the aspirations, as indicated by exercise their rights is dramatically affected by the fact this bill — and the aspirations, hopefully, we all have for that if you lose the opportunity or leave that care home seniors living in residential care and non-seniors living or there's a problem in that care home, in a sense you in residential care — have been let down, particularly in are often forced or have the anticipation of leaving town, recent years. even, because of that. That's the circumstance there. What does the ombudsperson say about her review? We've had, of course, the very serious incidents at Well, amongst other things, she suggests…. This is the Beacon Hill Villa in this community of Victoria — the largest response, and it's specifically related to the issues repeated violation of government standards that led to in this bill. The ombudsperson said in her report that investigations, led to the takeover of the home and certainly the concerns expressed included serious concerns with led to the compromising of the very rights that we are respect to food quality, inadequate personal care, facility talking about in this legislation, rights that those residents, closure processes, access to services, funding, complaints by the way, had prior to the existence of this legislation, processes, standards of care, monitoring and enforcement rights that ought to have been respected at the time. of standards and facility closures, and how information Of course it's not just myself that says all this. The about seniors care is provided to the public. B.C. Care Providers Association has been very clear that Those are the serious issues that the ombudsperson is while they're sympathetic to the notion of a bill of rights, grappling with. And she's not grappling with those issues they would have liked, for example, in their case, to have because the government actually achieved its level, its been consulted. Similarly, those groups representing 2001 campaign promise of 5,000 net new long-term-care workers would like to have been consulted by the gov- beds, and not because they achieved their 2005 promise ernment prior to the rushing forward of this legislation of 5,000 net new long-term-care beds and not because in anticipation of the Ombudsman report. they achieved their promises with respect to care levels Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1707

but, quite on the contrary, because they have not done to in fact take away the underpinnings of that system. that. So we benefited as young people.A s a generation we have In fact, the failure to keep that campaign promise received more education than the previous generations. has been reported by every independent group that has Now, at our high earning levels, instead of maintaining reported on the question. Those groups have included, an outstanding social safety net for seniors who have of course, the CCPA, which the government doesn't like; gone before us and contributed to our lives and the the BCMA, which they must not like even more; and the young people who are following behind us…. B.C. Care Providers Association. This goes directly to these issues of rights for people in [1655] residential care. Unfortunately, we've seen a desire to shift Now, this is why these serious issues that have been by the cutting of marginal tax rates and the imposition of raised in long-term care and in residential care have costs and the removal of supports for seniors. been brought forward. This bill of rights is in some ways How does that manifest itself in reality and in the real- in anticipation, I assume, of the very critical report that ity faced by anyone faced with this bill of rights trying will be forthcoming from the ombudsperson. to work their way through the system of seniors care? That is sort of the context, and there's another context Well, on the day before this bill was introduced in this here. You know, since my grandfather was born, we've Legislature, Statistics Canada…. Again, Statistics Canada, seen the most dramatic increase in life expectancy of all presumably — I think we can all agree — doesn't have time. People are living dramatically longer. I'll give myself in its presentation of statistics, whether they be statistics as an example, because I have type 1 diabetes. Had I been showing that we have the highest child poverty rate in born at the time of my grandfather, I would very likely Canada or other things…. Statistics Canada is neutral. It's have died. Of course, at the time when he was born and just taking the evidence it has received and putting forward was growing up, Banting and Best had not discovered that evidence. insulin for human use, which, if not a cure for diabetes, What does Statistics Canada say about care levels in at least allowed people to live full lives with diabetes. residential care in British Columbia? Well, what they We've had all of these medical developments. We have said was, I think, dramatically negative. It goes directly a generation of people who are largely in long-term-care to concerns around the rights in this bill. homes today, who are 75 years and older and have con- It's one thing to state that one has rights. For example, tributed enormously to the development of our society. if we had a Charter of Rights in Canada but no access I'm kind of at the tail end of the baby boom genera- and no recourse to the courts, we would have a nice tion. I was born in 1964, but my generation has benefited Charter of Rights. But if people didn't have access to the enormously because it was that generation of seniors courts — that's why legal aid is so important — then who defended our country in war. Their fathers and that Charter of Rights would not have meaning for a lot mothers did. It was that generation of seniors that has of people. led to the building of many of the institutions that make [1700] our province such an extraordinary place to be and our Indeed, for some people today, it does not have meaning country one of the most affluent countries in the world. because they do not have that access to the court. Things like public health care, like access to post- Equally, a bill of rights such as this only has real meaning secondary education. It was that generation of seniors. if care standards are maintained at a high level, if these They built those institutions that the baby boom genera- rights actually have — shall we say? — expression in a tion as young people benefited from. They did it through long-term care home. contributions to the system. They paid taxes, and they What does the Statistics Canada data tell us about this always paid their taxes. As a generation they paid taxes critical question central to our understanding of this that built what we would broadly call the welfare state. legislation? What it tells us is that British Columbia has We have all benefited from that in this province and in the lowest care standards in the country. That's what it this country, in a public education system that struggles says. It says that the care standards in British Columbia…. at times and is struggling now but delivers public educa- Again, I refer people to the Statistics Canada website. It tion to us and access to post-secondary education. is very, very, I think, interesting to see a non-partisan What have we seen in recent times? We've seen, in fact, a body lay out the facts in this way. It says that care stan- shift from people at the high income levels, who benefited dards in British Columbia are 25 percent — that's 25 as children from access to post-secondary education and percent — below the average care standard in western access to education and quality education and all of those Canada. That's what Statistics Canada says. elements of the social system that were built and paid for When it talks about the rights to health and safety and by the generation of people who are now seniors and in dignity in a care home, where you are extraordinarily care homes. We benefited from it. dependent on the staff serving you, 25 percent less…. I At the high-income years what has been going on now hear it often. When the government addresses issues of for that generation of people has been an effort, I think, seniors care, we hear it often. "Oh well, it's a tsunami." 1708 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

It's a view that seniors are somehow the problem, that Then we have this avalanche of interest and concern they are to blame for their circumstances. But when expressed by the Ombudsman and the people of British you consider, just consider, 25 percent below the aver- Columbia, when the Ombudsman went forward with age of comparable jurisdictions in western Canada — her review of care standards in British Columbia and, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta — 25 percent lower…. indeed, of residential care in general in the province. The care standards in British Columbia — 12.5 percent What are the other elements of the problem, I think, lower than the national average, 12.5 percent lower. that we can reflect on here?N ot only is it an issue of care Now, one has to reflect on that. There may be explana- standards. Again, I remind you, hon. Speaker, of the fact tions within the statistics, and there'll be a discussion that in British Columbia we have the lowest care stan- about that. But I think at the heart of it, it's a question of dards in the country, according to Statistics Canada. It's priorities. Because while it is true that these are difficult also a qualitative question, because what we've seen in economic times and it is true that we have to find the most recent times are two sets of things happen that I think efficient solutions always, the suggestion that is implied have been, in consecutive terms, disturbing to both by the government — a government that has done noth- those who work in the care sector and those who are ing about the issue of care standards and, in fact, has led responsible for running care homes. us to drop to tenth place in the country in terms of care We've had, in fact, an effort to shift the cost burden on standards since they've come to office…. to both of those groups, in effect. So we have the situa- The idea that this issue central to this bill of care stan- tion. My colleague the member for Nanaimo, who spoke dards — that British Columbia has less capacity as an so eloquently on this bill earlier, knows about the situa- economy to provide an adequate level of care standards tion at the Nanaimo seniors centre in his constituency of in our residential care homes, less of a capacity than, say Nanaimo. The circumstances that have occurred there — oh, I don't know — New Brunswick, for example, less are very much relevant to this issue of rights to health of a capacity than Ontario, than P.E. I. or Manitoba, when and safety and, most importantly, dignity in residential we know that, in terms of resources, British Columbia is care in British Columbia. one of the richest provinces in the entire country…. What happened at Nanaimo seniors centre? I know It is not an excuse to say: "Oh, we've got a problem that the member for Surrey-Newton is well aware of this with seniors" and "It's too expensive" and "We just had issue because similar things have occurred in his con- to do it. We just can't afford to ensure that standards in stituency of Surrey, in constituencies in Abbotsford, in British Columbia are equivalent to the national average." Kamloops, in constituencies across the province. At that That may be their position, but it has no justification if care centre…. I'm referring specifically to the provisions one reviews the size of the B.C. economy or the wealth of the bill here that talk about the dignity of individuals of its population. — very specifically those provisions. These are a matter of choices, and the choices that In that care home, and this is a very important context have been made, alas, are not the best choices. This is for the bill, we had a group of workers who supported reflected, I think, in just that small review by Statistics the seniors at that home in their exercise of their rights Canada. What it reflects, it seems to me, is an issue that to health and safety and participation and dignity. Again goes to the heart of any piece of legislation reflecting and again and again, once laid off, twice laid off, three and talking about bills of rights and care standards. times laid off, four times laid off — the same workers. Are we prepared on the ground to ensure that those The impact that had…. rights are respected? Yes or no? Are we prepared to One of the interesting things is…. These issues and ensure on the ground high care standards? Yes or no? these efforts, in fact, to both drive down wages in that It's not just whether you post your theses on the wall. sector and also to drive down the rights of workers in It's not just a question of posting a bill of rights on the that sector…. The government would say: "That's what wall, although that has value. That has value to do that. we have to do. You know, those workers had too many It's not just a question of knowing what those rights are; rights." But the consequences of that for those trying to it's not just a question of having them stated. It's a ques- exercise these rights that we're talking about today were tion of having them have real effect in practice, and that significant. is not where we're at. The impact on the quality of care, on their dignity — We've had this situation in time. As I say, Statistics to use the expression used in the legislation — was pro- Canada — very clearly the lowest care standards in the found. You only had to talk to those individuals, as I did country. All of the main independent agencies that have when I visited Nanaimo, and see the impact it had, the reviewed the long-term care bed question say that the uncertainty, the instability, the effect on health outcomes, government has broken its promises, including during the effect on the quality of life — all the things reflected the election campaign — the former Minister of Health, in this legislation — to know that that was the wrong who finally acknowledged that in kind of a dramatic way. path. In fact, the instability and consistent instability [1705] caused by those actions in terms of labour relations has Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1709

profoundly affected the very rights that this bill purports tunity in this Legislature — I hope we do; I hope closure to extend to seniors. So that's one set of things. won't be used — to talk about the HST, the reality is that On the other set of things, if you review…. I know on care levels there will be a dramatic effect on the very that the Minister of Healthy Living and the Minister of rights we're talking about in this legislation, by the HST. Health occasionally meet with the B.C. Care Providers What will happen is that that tax will take — according Association. Their response to the legislation, and their to the B.C. Care Providers Association — $42 million out concern in terms of issues of transparency that they have, of the sector, which will affect the ability to, in fact, deliver principally issues of transparency about differential sub- on the rights that we're passing in this legislation. There sidies that are granted…. You have these dramatically are no changes to per-diem rates — none — in order to different levels of funding by a care home. make up the difference. The only way that will come out, What's happened in the care sector, because we've had the only way that those care homes, particularly the pri- this breaking of the promise in the building of long-term vate care homes funded largely by the government, will care beds, is a dramatic increase in the seriousness of the be able to manage that question…. physical conditions faced by people living in care homes. There will be two ways. One, there would be shifts in Care homes that were closer to intermediate care homes profit levels that they might make. Let's assume a flat are now dealing with a high acuity level amongst their profit level coming out of the care home. The only place resident population such that the dramatic differences that those costs will be borne is on care levels. As we are in funding levels by a care home that you would see, for here debating a bill of rights for residents to promote example, in the Fraser Health Authority, dramatically better care, on the one hand — and we already have affect the level of care. the lowest care standards in the country according to So legitimately…. This is an issue, naturally, that we'll Statistics Canada and the independent reviews — we be exploring with the government at committee stage, have a drive, an institutional drive, to lower those care because it is an issue that very eloquently, I think, has standards. been brought forward by not just the B.C. Care Providers This is, I think, the central question in the debate that Association but by seniors groups such as COSCO and, we're having here today and why it's so important for in fact, labour groups — all of the sort of participants in members of this Legislature to speak out in this debate, the field — is to get more access to the information. to speak out and say that this idea, this notion that sen- [1710] iors — and seniors in care, in particular — should just be It's very difficult to know, by a care home, what a par- viewed in the negative…. They are cost drivers. They're ticular subsidy level is in one care home, per-diem level in part of, to quote the Premier, "a silver tsunami." a care home, versus another and, of course, very difficult But to view this thing instead as our obligation, our in terms of public care homes as well. responsibility to improve, to make this in fact — which So what the Care Providers Association…. On the one should be our goal — the best time ever in the history of hand you have this organized instability in terms of those British Columbia to be a senior…. It's the time when life providing the care — which profoundly affects, I would expectancy is the longest, the time when seniors have argue, the level of care and is a direct result of one set of the longest period — if they've retired at 65 — in human government policies — and on the other hand, consistent history to enjoy their life after retirement and to con- challenges to the level of care, which I would argue is cen- tinue to contribute to society. tral to this legislation in terms of inconsistent and opaque To have this period be the period when we said that practices to manage per-diem rates by the government. care standards in British Columbia should not be the You have these two elements that have caused pro- lowest but should, at the very least, meet the national found concerns and, alas, will be, I'm sure, part of the average. Shouldn't that be our goal? Shouldn't it be our Ombudsman's review but are in no way reflected in this goal? legislation. There's no effort in this legislation to say that Shouldn't it be our goal to give real meaning to the we need certain minimum care standards. There's no rights stated in this legislation by building the long-term effort to move towards care standards, no effort — in care beds so long promised by the government, which a bill that talks about a bill of rights for residents — to every independent report has said that they haven't built promote better care, to in fact address the issue of the and that the former Minister of Health confirmed in the fact that those care standards are lower here than in any election campaign that they haven't built. Shouldn't this other jurisdiction in the country. be the time to meet that test? There's no effort in that regard. That is a very serious [1715] issue for the Care Providers Association, an issue compli- Shouldn't this be the time — because we are talking cated — it goes directly to this issue of right to dignity — by here, of course, about people who are in residential care recent financial changes put forward by the government. — when we give every opportunity not just to those in resi- As you know, hon. Speaker, without dwelling on this, dential care but the rights of those who don't want to go because we're going to have, I'm sure, plenty of oppor- into residential care, who want to stay at home, to have 1710 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

programs in their community that have meaning, that give You know, on this side we believe that seniors, in par- their lives meaning and hope and a community to live in? ticular, deserve the greatest respect and dignity we can Instead, we have a process where those programs afford. Society must place greater care in prevention were funded by the health system for decades and then measures so that seniors can live healthier lives. That pre- cut at 30 days' notice. vention is part of the rights we should be giving them. Shouldn't this be the best time, when we build and We talk about rights. Well, you know, I think that as work with seniors to have communities that work, a society, we think the right to safety and security of the where we, in fact, encourage the volunteering spirit that person…. I think that should be a given right. I don't is so much a part of seniors in our community, where know if we have to legislate it, but we all certainly support we encourage it, not discourage it, where we say that's this and look for amendments. But when we have to try fundamental to what the health care system is and not and ensure it, when we think it should be a right invested external to what the health care system is, which is the within our bill of rights, it's also…. new position of the government after 17 years with We believe in the rights to equality, and that's something respect to those kinds of programs? I want to talk about here when I have an opportunity. The This should be the time when we give meaning to a right to citizenship, the right to freedom of conscience bill of rights. This is what it's about. Every member of and expression — I think those are given, and those this Legislature, if they rise to support these rights today, seem to be given, my understanding is, within the con- should also take a vow that it is unacceptable in 2009 in stitution we already hold dear. British Columbia that we have the lowest care standards However, for whatever reason, we're reintroducing in the country. this concept in a bill. And it should be reinvested. It Everyone should take a vow on that — that this should should be talked about over and over. Maybe, if it means be the time in British Columbia when seniors should we have to reiterate it many times in order to drive it have access to the appropriate level of care. This should home, it is important. be the time when there's transparency in our system [1720] as to the funding arrangements for care homes. This Many, many years ago I remember in the House should be the time when we don't punish care homes during an NDP government in the 1970s, there was a that are providing needed health care to our community Premier, and his name was Dave Barrett. He said that with new taxes like the HST. civilization can be measured by its treatment of seniors. This should be the time. It should be our vow to not In the '70s that was interesting. just vote for this bill and move on to the next bill but to We took it for granted, I suppose, that seniors would be have a real commitment to seniors in British Columbia, looked upon as an elder that's on a high pedestal. But to a commitment that means that we provide resources try and enshrine it in our constitution and bill of rights is behind this bill, a commitment that we show respect for something that…. For many times we would expect that seniors, that we value their role in our communities. it was part of the social contract. It was obvious from When members get up and vote for this bill, let us hope the beginning of societies that it was a given. The elderly, that, in their hearts, they want to make real improve- who'd put their worth and their time, their efforts, their ments in the lives of British Columbians — not just pass jobs…. They wore the uniform. They died. Many had a bill in anticipation of a report that is going to blast the friends that died on the front. They gave everything they government's horrendous record but a commitment to could to build this nation and this province. improving standards for seniors in British Columbia. It was a given. Of course they would have rights. Of course they'd be looked after. But you know, human G. Gentner: I rise to address the Health Statutes rights really rest on human dignity, and I don't know (Residents' Bill of Rights) Amendment Act, known here if that's something you can legislate. I believe we can today as Bill 17. To begin, it's quite interesting — the dis- talk about dignity. It's a word, but I think it's a societal course and discussion here. Yesterday there was I won't expectation. It is a measure of the community, the neigh- say an attempt but a tenor whereby discussing the HST bourhood and the society you live in. — how it affects seniors and how it's related to this act — Nevertheless, that's what we're going to do. It's something was pretty much discarded by the Speaker. that I want to talk about, the difference between — at least I have to bring it to your attention, because the what I think — this notion of liberty and equality versus member for Surrey-Tynehead was called on it many that of equity. You can't take one away from the other. times. I thought maybe he was thinking about health Rights and your ability to have dignity are premised seniors treatment, HST. But the point of the matter on many things. Obviously, your health, your safety. is that it shows very much the difference on this side Obviously, it has something to do with your income, your versus the other side relative to the in-play of the econ- ability to pay and your housing. They're all interrelated. omy and the in-play of income and what it really means So when we come forward and say that we're going to when you're talking about human rights. legislate dignity with this bill of human rights, we have a Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1711

lot of questions to ask ourselves. How effective is it really we see…. Probably the greatest number of incidences or going to be? illnesses or disease or costs from seniors is that of falling You know, seniors do not want to be coddled. They want down. We have not put money in prevention on that sta- self-respect and the ability to maintain their dignity. Dignity tistic. Of course, once you break your hip, you're done, has a lot to do with their own autonomy. Their abil- for many seniors. So the question there is that we can ity to stay at home, their ability to manage their affairs, talk about Bill 17, seniors rights, but what money did we the ability to still — even though the body is breaking put into prevention? down…. I can tell you that once you get to 50, you start Some seniors may have more rights than others. Some realizing that we are mortal beings. I know many of us, may have the resources available and the support systems back in our rock-and-roll days, adolescence, thought we to assist them getting on a handyDART, but others, of were going to go on forever. Nevertheless, when things course, don't have that privilege. start breaking down, you realize how vulnerable we are. The independence versus dependence criteria,I think, It's important to understand that seniors want their can be provided. It's a provision of the housing. Of self-respect. The way to do it is for human society, for course, it's on the health care we provide, and it's also our society, to at least understand the importance of relative to income. I think the dubious threshold is the human dignity. transition from assisted living to long-term care, where I think in many ways, as a society and as a province, we seniors are pushed out because of costs, in many cases, patronize seniors. But it's important that we encourage…. to the private provider. What's important, I think, is they want to embrace their As we begin to privatize our long-term care facilities own independence. We can talk about independence and as government moves away from it, the govern- versus dependency. Their rights and their dignity,I think, ment, of course, is looking more and more at the need to are based as much on their independence. create a bill of rights in order to ensure that they will be Once they go into a long-term care home, the ques- protected — which, of course, begs the question, as we tion is: well, how much independence are they going to move into this aspect: are we going to provide the proper forgo? How much are they going to lose? legal support systems for those seniors who are unable On top of that, you have to weigh that with preven- to fight for their rights? tion versus chronic illness. Once you are chronic, you I don't think this government will. We on this side, in start losing your ability to make decisions. You are in a the fall of 2007, came forward with the Representatives position where you're no longer as independent. You are for Seniors Act to establish a seniors advocate in British now relying on us, and your rights are based primarily Columbia. When it comes down to it, you can legislate, on the help of others. you can put the bill in place, but if you don't have that You know, we deal with the chronic cases in the oversight, if you're unwilling to go that extra step, if you homes that seem to gain immediate impact, but very are now suggesting that rights that we assumed were little is there to explain how the senior got there in the never really there in the first place…. How we are going first place.A nd we are going to talk about seniors rights? to create that oversight, I think, is a fundamental issue We have to talk about the prevention, the lack of income, that this government is not looking at through this act. the inability to buy the proper medication, the loss of Now, the government disregarded our position. We Pharmacare, the loss of fairness, the inability to get believe that first and foremost a seniors advocate would proper treatments that may have prevented them and ensure that seniors in community care and assisted kept them independent in their home. living would have access to fair complaint processes That's a breakdown of our society and a breakdown of and the supports necessary to navigate the complaint our values. It's a breakdown of our ability to come for- process. There is a set of a mini bill of rights built right ward with budgets that will assist seniors. To me, that is a in, whereby you have an advocate that would be there fundamental difference, I believe, with the government for you. This bill, unless we see what the amendments and this side. are, I think without the proper funding will prove to be [1725] inadequate. I don't think you can equate rights separately with- As it is now, the complaint process is blocked by the out fully understanding the equity issue, and I guess provider. We've seen it many times when there is an inci- maybe that makes me a little more red than the others. dent in a particular home. We try to get the information, Maybe I really believe that there is needed funding. The and it's protected under the Privacy Act. We know now old Liberal view is that we're all equal before God, and with the P3 world that we have a problem of getting that somehow we get to the pearly gates, and we'll be treated access to information, because they're there to protect the same. But you know, on planet Earth, it doesn't quite the interests of the private provider as opposed to pro- work that way. tecting the interests of the senior. We talk about housing and how, without proper equity, Will this bill of rights ensure that it will be transpar- we will find that seniors are put in a predicament where ent? If you want to get down to the nub and find out 1712 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009 what's gone wrong with mom or dad in the home and They claimed they were going to produce 5,000 beds. We you file the FOI to find out what your real rights are, know that's not the case. That was called Liberal math. will you not be prevented in the interests of the private It didn't happen. It didn't happen because they provider, who doesn't want that information to be let changed the goalposts. What became long-term care out, because that group or agency is in competition with facilities also included home care facilities. They bumped another company? This is the conundrum I think we're the numbers in order to produce, I would suggest, some- going to be in. thing that was very untruthful. [1730] The B.C. record on health care for seniors is one of I'm worried that this is just another example of the broken promises on long-term care beds. It has separ- would act — woulda, coulda — where it's there for show. ated couples. What are we going to do with this one? You It's there for some type of facade, saying we believe in know, we've seen it with the Albos up in the Kootenays. the rights of seniors. But again, if you do not put the The situation there was disheartening, disgraceful. How proper funding in place, if you not have an advocate was it that loved ones who were together for years were who will stand up for seniors, who will police the situa- separated because the system could not provide the tion, I think we're going to be in no better place than we care for that couple? They had to split them up. Within are today. months, if not weeks, both unfortunately perished in We had a problem, of course, in Victoria with dismay. Retirement Concepts — the Beacon Hill issue. We asked I bring this to attention because I don't know if this to go before the Ombudsman, but the government, human rights bill will ensure that if you want to stay in a working with Retirement Concepts, came up with their home and you like that home, you'll be able to stay there. own ombudsman. Many residents or family members Is that going to be your right, or will the ministry still reported to the opposition that they felt intimidated have its ability to say: "I'm sorry. We think your condi- by having to speak up. The question is — again, in the tion is such whereby there's other help elsewhere for less interest of protecting the private interests: will they still dollars"? have that ability under this act? That's what we're seeing primarily….I 've seen it many times, where seniors are being moved around as though [L. Reid in the chair.] they're some kind of commodity that can be shifted. That's a matter of losing their dignity. When you lose I think not. I think we're still going to be in a mess. The your dignity, I believe you're losing your rights. complaint process works for the company, not to victim- So with this bill, I'm assuming that this government ize the neglected resident. I guess history will show us. is going to promise us that seniors aren't going to be Hopefully, it will change. With this new act, this is all bumped around in transport ambulances across this going to change. This is all going to be very different. province at the convenience of a health authority. Again, this government believes that you can legislate [1735] dignity, but you don't necessarily have to put the money Each health authority has different standards. The in it in order to provide proper health care. Vancouver Coastal Health Authority or — or their The seniors advocate would monitor the performance expectations on health care in long-term care facilities of various programs and services for seniors to ensure — than let us say the Fraser Health Authority. They're services are integrated, coordinated, non-discriminatory two different systems, two different budgets. and accountable. That was our position, but with this act If you're going to have rights, it's got to be ubiquitous I don't know how accountable it will be. I don't know across the plain. It's got to be the same. It's got to be how accountable or non-discriminatory the performance universal. In fact, isn't that what universally accessible, in some of the homes will be. There's nothing in this act portable health care is all about? But there's no provi- that guarantees that. sion in this bill that will show that each health authority I was seniors critic for a number of years, and what will treat their seniors the same. It certainly isn't here, got me most upset is when…. You could see the dig- and that is a major concern. nity when you look in their eyes, and you can also see Again, they've ignored the serious incidents dating vacuous eyes — those who were empty, who didn't have back to 2002. There's been no public reporting and no family there anymore, did not have any support systems accountability. We've seen over and over again the type and seemed to be walking aimlessly and unsure. They of oversight being conducted within. The question is: will felt as though they'd lost their rights. there be money provided for…? When, of course, there I think the B.C. Liberal government has ignored the is a complaint lodged, will it go to the health authority? growing concerns for seniors, their families and the Will they do the risk assessment? health care professionals, about the state of care in many I mean, we've gone through a lot of questions on the facilities across our province. TheB .C. Liberal record on risk assessment in this House. Again, the health author- health care for seniors is one, I think, of broken promises. ities each do their own hazardous risk assessment of Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1713

each home, and they're different criteria. If you have a How do you weigh that in light that everyone is going worker investigating a home, let's say, in Vancouver, it's to be equal? There is no substantial standard in place all subjective. That subjectivity or assessment of the lack throughout this province to ensure some basic needs. of provision of health care in one home may be very dif- How do you ensure that one program will not be deliv- ferent than the subjectivity of the rights that are being ered over another one? I don't see that in this bill. violated in a home in Prince George. I think that's a I support, of course, the need for a seniors advocate in major flaw. I think it's a very major flaw. order to ensure that those rights and interests of seniors are We need a representative that can see and indeed feel provided, that their families are guaranteed the decency the despair of many who are aging and have no voice. of where those services are provided in order to protect You have rights, but who's going to hear you? Who's seniors, and that their views are heard and considered. going to stand up for you? I support the need for a representative for seniors in We look at the United States of America. They enshrine order to ensure that seniors have access to a fair, respon- their bill of rights. By golly, they wave it up. But you can sive and appropriate complaint and review process at all look around at their health care system, which doesn't stages in the provision of designated services, by way of give them one iota of support. You can look at the pov- an advocate that can speak for them. erty in the United States, this wonderful liberal egalitar- Again, who will speak? You may have rights, accord- ian system, but there's no insurance that all children will ing to this bill. But when you're down and out, is there get a fair and equal try at university, let alone education going to be the money provided to have somebody sitting in grade school. there to help you? I mean, is this bill going to be all fluff? We need a seniors advocate that can speak for them Is it in name only? Are we really going to address the in conjunction with a bill like this, an independent problem at hand? ombudsperson. I was going to say ombudsman, but Health is besieged by complaints regarding senior we'll call this person ombudsperson. For seniors that care in this province, and we have to assist the govern- can ascertain beyond the whimsical knee-jerk stupor or ment. I believe that the ombudsperson for seniors would careless politics…. How we care for our elderly defines be the answer. ourselves, our society and how we live. We know that demographics are changing every day, We need a legislative representative for seniors to where British Columbia's population is aging. With improve systems of care and support for seniors and such an advocate, we recognize the growing trend and their families in British Columbia. Families get involved. the need to plan our communities in order to address They belong to the different councils and different long- this growing phenomenon, the need to recognize that term care facilities. There's this iron curtain for them to British Columbia's delivery of services and health care get the proper information they need to help their loved to seniors needs to be transparent and open in this ones, and they can't get it. oversight. What are the rights provided here for the family mem- That to me is really a major issue. If you don't have bers? That's a question we're going to find out. Those are that oversight, if you have that inability to investigate some of the questions I would hope that during com- further and make improvements, will it be hidden? That mittee stage we'll be able to get to the nub of and find is a question. I don't think it will be totally transparent. out exactly whether families will get that kind of support You know, if we were to support such a motion, we system. I think the family support system is also based would be providing not only short-term solutions based on counsel, and it's also based on proper funding. on urgencies but a long-term approach with a respon- We need a representative for seniors who will monitor sive public body that can monitor, review and conduct the performance of various programs and services for research for a responsible government. We don't have seniors to ensure that services are integrated, coordin- that. We need that independent voice. ated and accountable. We can talk about proper programs TheL eader of the Opposition stood up in these cham- and programs that aren't being offered. Recreational bers and delivered that bill, and this government did not therapy is one example. Some health authorities will deliver. They did not listen, and here we are today. By embrace it and do embrace it. Others do not think for not listening, by not putting our collective ears to the one moment that spending extra money, particularly for ground, by not providing a medium in order to assist a health care provider, or that we should spend money seniors and consequently assist all of us, we are showing, on recreational therapy for seniors…. I think, contempt for the reality of what we are becoming [1740] in society. We are putting out this facade that with this Recreational therapy for one long-term-care facility is bill, we are all going to make it better. But I don't think a television. Maybe once a week they'll play a little bingo that's the case. I don't see it at all. and call that recreational therapy. Another long-term You know, we talk about these needs. We can talk about care facility will actually get seniors into a swimming the needs in the homes, the need for companionship. pool, get them moving, get some cardiovascular. Companionship is part of a right — to be able to talk, to 1714 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

meet people. How do you monitor that one in this bill? how seriously we take the issue of the care of seniors. I You're talking about dignity. Dignity is companionship. think everybody on both sides of the House is very well Are we going to ensure…? aware of the need to ensure that our seniors are able to Is it not your right to have a good hot meal every day? live in dignity, with respect and with the adequate level Is that not a right? How are you going to legislate? How of care. are you going to make sure that is going to comply? I I think it's quite clear that nobody can really object to can tell you that in our health care system, there's a lot the fact that there is a bill of rights. We're talking about of slop that's been served up for a long time. You can talk how we ensure that rights become a reality for our sen- to people in the hospitals, and you can talk about what's iors. This bill of rights includes the commitment to care; happening with privatization. Is that not a right — to rights to health, safety and dignity; rights to participa- have a proper meal? tion and freedom of expression; rights to transparency Another one that comes to mind is: should it not be and accountability. These are detailed. your dignity and right to have a bath once a day? One As I say, I don't think there's one person who could bath a day? The standard today is one a week, I think — really question the fact that we have to have rights and one a week. that seniors have every right to have the rights and that [1745] wherever they are living, they should be respected. I asked the former Minister of Health about that I asked some people in my community: if they were during estimates. I asked the minister, and maybe if doing a bill of rights for seniors, what would they do? the minister was here, I'd ask the question again: how I asked one of the operators of one of the care homes, many baths do you have a week? He wouldn't answer New Horizons. I asked some workers who work at the question. Yucalta Lodge, which is a publicly funded care operation. I talked to some families. What would they like to see if Interjection. they were drawing up a bill of rights? They all applauded what was going to be here in this G. Gentner: Oh well, the hon. member across from bill of rights. They all said: "This is very good. We've got me says he didn't know. I think he had a bath at least to have it." Some of the care homes said: "Well, we're once a week. I can tell you this. Most politicians, I'm already doing this." But what I heard from all of them sorry to say, are a little oilier than the rest. They're a little was the same thing, which was access — that it's really unctuous, and they need their baths. But to suggest for important that there is access. a second that seniors should only have one bath a week The operator ofN ew Horizons said that he very much is ludicrous. wanted to see a bill of rights — they have their own bill That's the standard. You're talking about rights. You're of rights themselves — but the concern is that it isn't talking about dignity. How are we going to ensure the too generic, that it isn't just fluff, that there is a reality of dignity to have seniors feeling good about themselves? implementation there. You've got to look at the equity questions and the budgets He said very clearly that one of the things essential that ensure there's proper health care in order to ensure to a bill of rights is the access to care. What he was talk- that they feel good about themselves. ing about was the amount of time that the care workers Volunteers. How do we ensure the volunteers are being spend with seniors and others who are in care and what properly funded? We can talk about Meals on Wheels. other care there is. That's collapsed. Without Meals on Wheels…. We are He was talking about the extra services, the social ser- trying to encourage this independence in the home. vices, the physiotherapists, even the physicians coming Well, that's gone by the dodo bird running this regime. in. Access to this has to be included in a bill of rights We're losing money. We're losing those programs. because of the way the funding formula operates. As I come to a close, there are so many issues here [1750] relative to the seniors on the risk-takes and who's going The home is funded for certain number of hours of to continue to look after it. The waiting lists themselves care, and that is taken up largely by the RNs or LPNs are part of an issue relative to your rights. Do you have or RCAs who are doing the care, leaving very little to get in the queue, and how long do you wait? Do you time for the other care. So he says that we really have to have to wait six months longer because you don't have have access to that — also the access that my colleague the funding? Do you get less care if you don't have the from Delta North was talking about, the access to social money? What about your rights? engagement, the access to be able to interact. With that, hon. Speaker, I close, and I'd like to thank What we have to recognize when we're talking about you for the opportunity to speak. care and care facilities is it's not just seniors. It's not the silver tsunami. The number of people who often have C. Trevena: I recognize the number of people that debilitating illnesses in care, people who are quite young have spoken about this bill today. I think it indicates who are in care homes, have different needs, different Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1715

requirements and different expectations. They still want an average wait time of 120 days, which is a huge length to live a full life. They may want to listen to different of time for people to wait to get into care. music and so on and have a different social life. I think I think the final part of access for space, because there that is something that has to be recognized — the dif- is such a huge pressure for space for long-term care in ferent needs and different access. We have to be aware my constituency, is the…. If there was a guarantee in of that. this bill of rights that when a resident had to go to hospi- Similarly, when I was talking to staff at the public facility tal, had to transfer to hospital from the care facility, they in Campbell River, at Yucalta Lodge, again acknowledg- could have the right enshrined that their bed — their ing that there are some very complex patients…. When home in the facility — would remain open. A number of we're talking about what they'd like to see in a bill of us hear in our constituency offices of cases where people rights, they also said access, but it was a slightly different have gone to hospital and then find that they can't get sort of access. It was also access to more facilities, but it back into care. was access to definitely more staff, more staff time. [1755] What they recognized is how needs have changed in When we're talking particularly about seniors, who the last few years. They would like to see that there is may be starting towards dementia and are not quite as more time given to people who are in care — for literally capable as they were, I think it's very sad, because they've the dignity of getting dressed, getting up in the morning, already had to move possibly into assisted living and getting to breakfast — so that they don't feel pressured then into a long-term care facility. This is their home, and the staff members don't feel pressured, so that there and then to lose their home…. I think if we could be is the ability to have that enshrined in the way people looking at that sort of access, too, in a bill of rights…. live. Madam Speaker, I know that time is pressing on, and The other issue of access for the staff there was very a number of people still want to speak about this. When much the access to some of the equipment needed — looking at this bill of rights — one cannot criticize having access to the wash basins, access to shower seats, access a bill of rights — I think we have to look at the effect of to lifts to be able to move the patients and to move the it, the implementation of it and take into account what residents. We've also heard many times that there are other people are saying, who are living with the system, very sad cases of access to bars, access to showers — who work in the system, who are running the system access to those things that people can take for granted and using the system. unless they are relying on someone else for their care. What I'm hearing from residents and constituents That's another area where we have to look at how we in the North Island is that there is an issue of access to can really ensure and enshrine a bill of rights by making make sure that this, as one person says, doesn't end up the things that we would take for granted, if we were just being fluff, just generic, but is a real bill of rights living in our homes, accessible. When you're talking that has teeth. to families, they're also talking about access, and their access is slightly different. Yes, they reiterate some of N. Letnick: I'm heartened to hear the comments on the concerns that come from either the operators of the both sides of the House regarding this bill and that it homes or the staff at the homes — they want to make looks like it's going to be supported as we move forward. sure their loved ones are well cared for — but there is I think the members on both sides of the House would not also at times another level of access. be where they are today if they didn't care about seniors One, particularly for Campbell River, is the access to and about those in our society who are less fortunate. care facilities in Campbell River. There are huge wait- It's nice to see we're going to be doing that. lists. I have one constituent whose mother has slight As I was looking for this bill, as I flipped through the dementia and is living in care in Comox. She's actually binder of bills, I just noticed that we have bills on the with Alzheimer's patients, and the mother knows that budget, bills on the supply act, the Wills, Estates and she's in the wrong facility. The family is trying to get her Succession Act, and insurance amendments. A lot of back into Campbell River, but really, again, it's an issue these bills have to do with seniors and the ability of our of access — access to wait-lists, access to the facilities, province to support and sustain a healthy and viable seniors access to space. population as they get older in our communities. Looking at a bill of rights as enshrining access to The Strata PropertyA mendment Act — again, seniors actual care, access to space, I think, would really put in a are involved with stratas. Protected areas. The Labour very progressive form. Mobility Act, which gives us the ability of making sure The other issue, again, in access to care and access to that we're competitive and have the people here in the facilities is the whole issue of the amount of time it takes province of British Columbia to provide services to seniors to get into care. As I say, in Campbell River in 2008-2009 and so on. the average wait time is 122 days. It was slightly better When I finally got to the bill that we're debating today, just for the first couple of months of this year. It's been I was very heartened to hear that the bill is actually 1716 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

called the residents bill of rights. Just to focus on the bill My father, for example — to bring him again into the itself, if I may, what I'd like to do is read out a few parts picture…. He only had to wait a few months to get that of the bill. unit that we were talking about. Today we're talking an "Rights to health, safety and dignity." Everyone is: average wait time of 15 to 90 days. So what I can see "(a) to be treated in a manner, and to live in an environment, here is that access to residential care has decreased a lot that promotes his or her health, safety and dignity; (b) to be pro- — from one year down to 15 to 90 days. tected from abuse and neglect; (c) to have his or her lifestyle and choices respected and supported, and to pursue social, cultural, Another point: 62 percent of residential care clients religious, spiritual and other interests; (d) to have his or her per- pay the lowest daily rate for residential care. That's sonal privacy respected, including in relation to his or her records, $30.90 a day, one of the lowest rates in all the country. bedroom, belongings and storage spaces; (e) to receive visitors Again, money is following the intention. and to communicate with visitors in private; (f) to keep and dis- play personal possessions, pictures and furnishings in his or her The number of publicly subsidized hospice beds in own bedroom." B.C. has more than quadrupled, from 57 in 2001 to 275 These rights go on to include freedom of expression, today. Right in my own area in Kelowna, thanks to a rights to transparency and accountability, and that the lot of volunteer help and, of course, IHA and the prov- rights should not be violated. ince of British Columbia and taxpayers, we now have a The reason why I bring this up is that in my particu- permanent hospice home that we can be very proud of. lar case, my father, who just passed away not too long Actually, I visited it a few weeks ago. A good friend of ago, was in a care facility in Surrey. It was kind of funny. mine was in hospice to give his wife some respite care. As a veteran in the Second World War, when I went to It's an amazing facility — again, funded by taxpayers of his place to visit him, I would see outside his room all British Columbia. the mementos that he would have from his time in the Another point is that we've doubled the SAFER rent navy, of course, and also his family pictures. When I was subsidy program for seniors, up to $1,800. Again, we're looking at the bill of rights, it reminded me how well my walking the talk. father passed away. He passed away in the comfort of The bill is good. The money, like woodI guess, is good his mementos, passed away in the comfort of his loved as well. The Minister of Forests will have to give me ones. something later for that little plug. Again, I just wanted Here is a bill of rights that would enshrine some of to say that this government is following the intent of the those things in law. What I heard from others was that bill. So the sanctimonious comments I heard before by not all of those mementos were allowed to stay in cases the member for…. Well, I'll just leave it there. of other people. I'm glad to see that people have those I wish to also talk about other policies in here which rights enshrined. will give us the flexibility as a province — as a lot of us I also remember when I was chairman of a hospital are baby boomers — to help our parents through their board in Banff. I would have the opportunity to visit old age. the auxiliary care ward where there were people with I want to talk about things like the Wood First Act. dementia, in some cases. I would sit and talk with them The ability for us to generate more sales in wood, more and visit, kind of walk the halls. Again, it was a right that jobs in the wood industry, will provide the treasury with I had as a volunteer in the hospital — to meet with these more money which we can then put towards more care people and learn so much from them and just spend time for seniors. with them. I think, once again, what's being proposed The HST. I heard, actually, on the other side…. here is doing exactly that. You're shaking your head. [1800] I heard, on the other side, complaints about the HST, It's allowing people to have freedom of expression to but I actually think the HST will be of benefit to sen- even turn on music in their own rooms, as long as the iors. The reason why I do is that by allowing us to music doesn't keep their neighbours awake. Of course, be competitive with our tax structure, we'll have more there's always that. jobs created in British Columbia. We won't lose the The opposition talk about the bill of rights. They say investment to other provinces. We already heard from that it's a good thing, and they want to make sure that the Bell Canada that they were investing over a billion money follows the intentions. I hear what they're saying, and a half dollars in Ontario, and one of their biggest but I guess I must ask why they even bother to mention claims for that was because they were moving towards it. When I look at all the things that this government the HST. has done over the years to support seniors — things When the…. like building over 13,000 new or replacement beds for residential care, supportive housing and assisted living Deputy Speaker: I would ask the member to bring since 2001; and this number includes over 6,000 net new his comments back to the consideration of the bill. beds — I guess I don't understand why they continue to attack the government on these issues. N. Letnick: Yes, I will, Madam Speaker. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1717

We are talking about other measures that we can use is kind of reminiscent, as the member for Delta North to really allow government to provide the funds necessary said the other day, of the wood-first bill, the wood is to support seniors — things like P3s, competitive tax good bill, which the member opposite just mentioned structures. This will maximize the options for govern- as well — which is, in fact, a feel-good bill with not a lot ment so that they can put the money towards long-term of substance in it. care for seniors. Just as the previous bill was an attempt by this govern- Health care, as we know, is going up 18 percent over ment to cover up the catastrophe that has happened in the next three years. Health care is consuming anywhere the forest industry, this one is similarly a weak attempt, from 40 percent to 45 percent of our budget. A lot of that albeit, to cover up the catastrophe in seniors care that is being used by seniors. So it's important that we articu- has struck seniors since this government was elected in late that not only are we providing people in residential 2001. They know that. care facilities the rights enshrined in law, but also we're One would think that we could — and that the providing the money necessary to ensure that we give government could, since they're the ones that bring them excellent service in this province. legislation forth — focus on some really essential rights [1805] for seniors, such as the right to a residential care bed in The last thing I would like to say is that by 2023 we're the first place. That right has been denied for many sen- going to have over a million seniors in this province, iors in British Columbia. It has been delayed for huge over a million seniors in this province who will benefit numbers of seniors in British Columbia. The promise at some point. I hope that they will live long and healthy that this government made — we all know the promise; lives but at some point will be in residential care. 5,000 long-term care beds — has never been fulfilled, It's important that we move forward with passing but nonetheless has been…. legislation which sets us up so that when the boomers The government has tried to finesse the numbers, as finally hit that senior age and are taking advantage of we know, over these many years and, for example, have all the wonderful health care that we offer and all the included in their, I would have to say, rash assertion that residential care that we offer as well, we will have all the they've met their targets, assisted-living beds which are systems in place to take care of them as far as financial nothing like residential care. means. Residential care is where you have complex health For me, what that means is providing governments care needs. You need 24-7 care. Assisted living is where with options. To do that, we really have to work on people live independently. They get a couple of meals a making sure that our tax system is competitive and day and a very minimum amount of assistance. that our health care system is second to none, as the They're entirely different things, but the government Conference Board of Canada says, in this country, and has mixed them up in order to make it appear that the that we continue to look for opportunities to pass more seniors of British Columbia are getting better access to bills like this that not only enshrine the rights of sen- health care and better access to care beds in long-term iors in our community, that show respect for them, but care facilities, which they know they're not. In fact, the also allow us to move forward with a sustainable health B.C. Medical Association said that between 2001 and care system, a sustainable support for seniors in this 2007 we had actually declined by 553 beds. Their doctors province. go into those facilities on a regular basis. I think they're I thank you for the time and the latitude that you've pretty well-qualified to comment on that. provided me during this debate, Madam Speaker. [1810] Another twist that the government has brought in Deputy Speaker: I thank the member for his remarks that just makes you want to tear your hair out, it's so far and call upon the member for Maple Ridge–Pitt out, is that they've been saying: "Oh, we don't have wait-lists Meadows. anymore." You ask how long a wait-list is to get into a residential care facility, they say: "We don't have wait-lists." M. Sather: It's my pleasure to rise to speak to Bill 17, They just magically disappeared somehow. Health Statutes (Residents' Bill of Rights) Amendment I guess there's nobody out there that even needs care, Act, 2009, which gives a few residents rights here, such one would think, if there's no wait-list, or there's a very as the right to a care plan; the right to health, safety minimal wait-list. and dignity; the right to participate in his or her own You have to have a need to be in a complex care facility care and to freely express his or her own view; right within 90 days. So you can't even get on a wait-list. If to transparency and accountability. They can submit a you're trying to care for your loved ones, you want to complaint under the Patient Care Quality Review Board get on a wait-list far enough in advance so that you can Act, but they can't sue. prepare and they can prepare for that very difficult move It's a bill, obviously, that has a general inclusion of sometimes. But that's not provided for by this govern- rights for seniors, and in that regard, it's supportable. It ment, and it's caused a great deal of concern. 1718 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

You know, I again was shocked — shocked but not out to $3,500 a month, and right now the cost for her surprised — to hear the member for Kelowna–Lake care is $1,350 a month, leaving the senior, the husband, Country say…. I'm not sure whether he said 15 to 90 still in the home with $2,200. or 50 to 90, but either way, he's saying that's the average But when you break it down, they're going to be wait-time to get into a long-term care facility. going from $42,000 a year, which is, as I said, $3,500 a I'll tell you, that is not the case in Maple Ridge. I'm month…. sure it's not the case in many, if not all, parts of British [1815] Columbia. The way that the notice reads — and I'm wanting to I asked our local hospital, where seniors are waiting get clarification from the ministry and from the minis- for up to a year in the hospital to get to a long-term ter on this — he'll be paying out or they will be paying care facility, or they may be transferred to Riverview $2,800 a month for her care. Now he goes down to 700 and be stuck there for months and months — who bucks a month. That doesn't cover very much, including knows how long? — until they get into a long-term care rent, facility fees, maintenance fees — all the things that facility. we have to pay to live. Well, I got an answer back, and it was around that So that would be another thing that I would sure like kind of number. I said: "That's not credible." It's not a to have seen in this bill of rights — the right for seniors to credible number. We know our seniors are waiting have care at a reasonable rate. Having your rate increase for up to a year in that hospital. I said: "So tell me this. by 80 percent is not reasonable. It's not reasonable at all, What are your minimum times that seniors have to wait and one can understand clearly why so many seniors are to get into a long-term care facility, and what are your upset with this government and getting more and more maximum times?" The answer was: "Well, we can't say upset as the days go on. because there's so much variability." Well, there have been cuts, as we know, and I could Now, come on. Elementary mathematical ability tells go on about those and about other issues. But I under- you that you can't have an average without knowing all stand there are a number of folks that still want to speak, of your figures, without having a minimum and a max- and we have not that much time left. So thank you very imum. But you can't get that. I couldn't get that infor- much, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to address mation from my health care facility. But I know, from this bill. talking to seniors and their families, it's much, much longer. V. Huntington: As I read through the rights enshrined That would have been a great thing to have in this in this statute, they are on the surface a good list — a bill of rights — the right to a long-term care facility for list of rights that are, generally speaking, common sense seniors who need it, and there are lots that need it. The and a given in our society. On the surface, it appears to number that are actually in care in B.C. is dropping — be a fine step for the government to take. I applaud the which is very surprising, given that our population is attempt, but I worry about the reality. aging, and aging fairly rapidly — but it's not dropping One of the most important of the rights listed is in in other provinces. subsection 3, the rights to participation and freedom This government does have a tremendous amount of expression. That is the right to know how to make a to answer for, to the seniors of this province, because complaint to an outside authority. But therein lies a per- they're not hoodwinked. They're not fooled. They're not fect example of the flaw I believe is in the legislation. deceived. They're not stupid. They know exactly what's The flaw is an absence of standards and guidelines that going on, and they don't like it one little bit. will give life to the rights listed in the schedule. When we The latest injury to seniors is the notice that's gone look at section 5 of the schedule, the section that defines out: "Well, guess what. Your rates are going up to pay for the scope of the enshrined rights, we can see the clouds your loved ones in long-term care." Not just a little bit; on the horizon. Without standards and guidelines, one we're talking about an 80 percent increase in long-term can imagine the defences available to facility operators care facility costs. That for many, many seniors — for under the phrase "what is reasonably practical." any of us — would amount to a huge hit on one's ability The member for North Delta brought up one of the to maintain an apartment, if there's one member of the issues that could arise in that situation. Is "reasonably couple still living, such as the senior that phoned me a practical" one bath a week, one bath every two weeks, couple days ago. access to a lift once a week or every month? That single He's 80-some-years old. His wife has been in a long- phrase can stop all serious complaints in their tracks, term care facility in Maple Ridge for about a year now. without a lawyer and without costly legal fees. They have a combined after-tax income of $42,000 a That isn't protecting a right. It is creating a potential year. Now that sounds like, well, it's not too, too bad. But burden on a complainant. While each right is subject to when you look at how that breaks down in face of what what at first glance are the reasonable limits of section they're facing, it goes something like this. That works 5, in reality the pursuit of a serious complaint would be Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1719

unaffordable to all but the most wealthy of individuals in They worked very hard in decent family-supporting residential care. I would therefore strongly recommend jobs throughout their lives to actually pay into the and hope that the minister would work with her experts system in the hope that when they are older and needed in an effort to develop regulations that will ensure these care, the care would be there. That's what seniors have rights are fully protected. done. All of our elders in our society, in British Columbia, As a final comment, I would like to pursue a point spent their lives paying into the system. made by the member for North Island: the right to My mom is 90 years old. Actually, she's a little over 90 access, especially the right to access a publicly funded now, and she's still at home and able to look after herself facility. and hasn't had to use the health care system in a way that In Delta South we have a truly wonderful extended a lot of folks did. She's been fortunate and also fortunate care facility, Mountain View. Mountain View is attached enough to have six children, who are all grown up now, to the extraordinary Delta Hospital. Recently, Fraser who are able to help her out. Health announced that it was bringing the caregiver- But the vast majority of seniors are not in that kind patient ratio into balance. How exciting. We all were of situation, so my heart really goes out to seniors when excited — more beds, just like the government keeps they can't get a bed in this province. When seniors get promising. separated, as was the case in the Kootenays with the But when I really looked at what was happening, I Albos…. Within a few days of each other, they both couldn't believe it. Fraser Health wasn't increasing the died — died of broken hearts — because of what has number of caregivers. They were reducing the number happened in this province in the last eight years. of beds. That is how they balanced the caregiver-patient Government ought to be there. Seniors have contrib- ratio. Fraser Health and the government didn't look to uted to the government coffers all their lives, so when better patient care. They looked to reduction of beds. they need care in their elderly years, government ought I don't know where all these extra beds are going, but to be there to provide that care for them, which hasn't what I do know is that the existing publicly delivered been available — and the promise. Obviously, with the extended care facilities are losing beds and that the beds loss of care, there's also the loss of dignity that follows in privately owned, government-subsidized institutions for seniors. I know the government is introducing this are growing by leaps and bounds. residents bill of rights, but it's not a right if there is no [1820] funding that goes along with it to actually have a right to What right does that promise for adults who desper- a bed for a senior in their elder years when they need it. ately need good care in a public facility? The right to It's not a right. It's just words. Basically, like anything access a public facility? No. The right to the expectation else this government has done over the last eight years, that one's entire remaining livelihood won't be exhausted when it comes to doing something for those people in in a private facility? No. The right to expect a bed at a fair our society that need it the most, it's just words. This is price in a decent facility? No. just words without the funding. Obviously, it impacts on Families today are being forced to put loved ones in the dignity of seniors as they venture out, after having expensive private facilities. Why? Because despite all the worked all their lives, looking for care in their senior protestations, no beds are available in public facilities. years. There is more work to be done. Bill 17 is a first step, I just want to tell you about some facts. I know I'm but I urge the government to examine the advisability of only going to speak for a few minutes, as time is a factor. developing a set of regulations that will go hand in hand Some of the newly released Stats Canada figures showed with the rights iterated in the minister's health statutes that B.C. provided the lowest number of paid care hours amendment act. in residential facilities of any Canadian province in 2007- 2008. This revelation comes as many seniors remain in H. Lali: I rise to take my place on Bill 17, intituled the hospital actually waiting for a bed in a residential care Health Statutes (Residents' Bill of Rights) Amendment home setting, as the Liberal government continues to Act, 2009, presented by the hon. Minister of Healthy impose a fee increase on residential care and as health Living and Sport. authorities cut many programs in place of support for This talks about a bill of rights for seniors in care, and seniors health. I want to talk about our seniors for a couple of minutes. [1825] Seniors, when they were younger, spent all their lives The Liberals promised one thing and have done working very hard and contributing towards society, exactly the opposite in terms of what they've offered contributing their taxes that supported not only children seniors. Seniors really have suffered under this regime, but also youth, supported health and education, and under this government. There continues to be a lack of supported all those services that were provided for soci- residential care spaces in B.C. ety by government — people of all different ages includ- ing seniors and people who are middle-aged. Interjection. 1720 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

H. Lali: My colleague to my right says big time, a big to mix them together in order to provide the appearance time lack. of meeting their initial promise. They may also be counting Alternate level of care, ALC, rates in B.C. are stagger- renovated beds as new beds. When you look at it, in ing. In the Vancouver Island Health Authority the rate is reality the assisted living is not a substitute for residential 16 percent so far this fiscal year, inN orthern Health it is care. 18.6 percent and in the Interior Health Authority it was The government has actually mixed residential care 13.4 percent in 2008-09. and assisted living together, but they're entirely different. Recent health authority budget cuts have resulted in One provides care, and one provides accommodation cuts to seniors care across the province, specifically in with some support services. Residential care is provided the Fraser Health Authority, where the FHA announced in what is commonly referred to as nursing homes, a 25 percent reduction in day programs for seniors and where seniors receive direct 24-hour care, including also ended the contract with community agencies that nursing care. Assisted living, however, is independent provided outreach to isolated seniors. housing for seniors where they get two meals a day provided Vancouver Island Health Authority is phasing out the and two care services a week, such as assistance with geriatric assessment unit at Victoria General Hospital, bathing or grooming. Regulations governing the two ending funding for volunteer programs for seven seniors different types of care are vastly different, in recognition support programs in Victoria and also closing the of the fact that one is care and one is housing with some Craigdarroch Care Home, Oak Bay Lodge and Mount support. Tolmie. I think it's time that the government stops mislead- In the IHA, my region, 30 community health work- ing the public and comes to the realization that their ers providing support to seniors in Kelowna have promise of 5,000 beds has not come to fruition, because been laid off by this government, and similar cuts they closed, actually, almost 2,000 beds between '01 and are actually pending throughout the region. Talarico '07. Place, which provides residential care for 60 residents, [1830] has lost its only recreational therapist. I could go on, I know a number of my colleagues are going to speak, but it's just one after the other, and there are so many so I'll have more to say in the throne speech in terms examples. of what the government is saying. But in any case, hon. The Liberals promised to build 5,000 long-term care Speaker, in order to make it a right for seniors, they have beds, but according to the BCMA, there was actually a to have a right to a bed for residential care for seniors net decline of 553 beds between '01 and '07. They promised and not just empty words, as this government always to improve home care, but they broke their promise continues to do. to improve home care support. Instead the number of people receiving home support dropped by 24 percent, B. Routley: It is indeed a privilege to rise and talk and overall hours of support dropped by 12 percent. about seniors care. People in the Cowichan Valley The Liberals promised one thing, but the government know a lot about seniors care. We suffered the indig- actually closed residential care beds while at the same nity in 2008 of this government's VIHA coming into time cutting home care and home support services for Cowichan Valley in the summer — on June 20. If you seniors. can imagine, my friend Don Gordon and his father Again, I could go on. The opposition have been calling were sitting watching TV, and that's how they learned for a seniors advocate who can fight for the rights of that his mother in the Cowichan Lodge was going to be seniors to make sure that they have a bed, but the gov- evicted in 30 days. ernment refuses to do that repeatedly. Now, that's a lack of dignity and respect for seniors. Hon. Speaker, election after election the government That's what this government was up to just in the summer has promised a whole lot of things to seniors, but they of 2008, when they announced that. With public pro- never delivered. In 2009 they made a series of prom- test, they extended it to 60 days. Then, when there were ises. They never delivered. The 2005 election platform threats of legal action, suddenly it got extended to a — same thing. The Liberals never delivered. Same thing whole year. But I'll tell you, if there was ever a need for a in 2001. It's just, say one thing during the election and real bill of rights for seniors, today is the day. do completely the opposite after the election. Unfortunately, I'm here to tell you that while this is a What's the government saying? I've got two min- baby step — and I might add, a real small baby step — in utes, and in two minutes I'm going to conclude, hon. the right direction, it is not the kind of real bill of rights Speaker. that seniors ought to have in the province of British You know, the government currently claims that it Columbia. has opened 5,896 "net new beds and units," as they say Let me read from the bill a few of the words here. In it, since 2001. Well, they actually refused to provide a the first section 7 that's repealed, it says that it's going to breakdown of the beds in the units, instead preferring be "in a manner that will promote…." Words matter, and Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1721

this is really a promotional bill. When you camp there This is a hypocritical government that treated the for a minute, this is all about promoting that there's people of this province with disdain, disrespect and going to be a real bill of rights. In fact, it's a pretty thin deceit. In the Cowichan Valley we were deceived by deal indeed for seniors. I sure wouldn't want to take this this government. The local surgeon who used to head kind of thing to the bank, and let me tell you why. up surgery resigned from his position because of the It says under the "Scope of rights": "The rights…are number of alternate-level-care patients who were clogging subject to (a) what is reasonably practical given the the beds of his hospitals so that surgeries couldn't proceed. physical, mental and emotional circumstances…." It's He resigned because of it. pretty thin rights indeed when it really is up to the Dr. Otte, from Nanaimo, earlier this month wrote a caregiver or somebody in government to interpret that letter to the Times Colonist and said she's ashamed to — whether or not you have any physical, mental or emo- participate in a system that so lets down those people tional circumstances that might deny you the rights that who are the foundation of our province. are in this act. These are the people who built our province, who Finally, I want to make the point that in this act, on handed us this place and these mechanisms we need page 4, under the heading "No right to sue," they make to defend their democratic rights. This government is it real clear that there's really no right to sue. It says: "No a little bit like the one who comes to us and says: "I put right of action lies, and no right of compensation exists, eight rocks in your shoes. I'm here to take out three. by reason only of a violation of a right set out in this Aren't I your best friend?" Schedule." Well, no. It's not good enough. We have seen a decline Well, there you go. It's a lot of good words, and we in seniors care. We have seen a net decline of 553 beds support it because it's a baby step in the right direction. in this province. At the same time, they boast about But I've got to tell you, for the people in the Cowichan increases. That might work for them and get them Valley, we're absolutely frustrated beyond belief at the through the duration of their speeches in this House, lack of action by this government in putting in place a but the people of this province know a very different real bill of rights and not only that but putting people in truth. the kind of care homes that they need. They know the truth of their parents, their relatives You know, in the Cowichan Valley, we had this beauti- and the community members who they respect waiting ful lodge supported by literally thousands of people that and waiting and going without respect. lived in the Cowichan Valley, and it had this beautiful This bill of rights fails to defend the resident's right to garden. Today, no seniors from the Cowichan Valley be informed of the facility's services and charges. It fails can wander through that beautiful garden. Nobody can to defend the right of a person to be informed about their go through there and have a look at what used to exist, medical condition. It fails to defend a person's right to because the place is locked down. participate in their care plan. It fails to protect a person's It's closed with no consultation, against the wishes of right to select their own caregiver and to have their own literally thousands of people that signed, pleading for caregiver visit them in a facility. the government to take action to put that lodge back in These are just some of the rights that are guaranteed place. Obviously, what's happened is that those pleas for in every U.S. state with their bill of rights. These are just help and those petitions fell on deaf ears. some of the rights that every senior in British Columbia [1835] should expect. The reality is that we have a lack of the kind of care It's a shame that what happened in Cowichan Valley facilities that seniors throughout British Columbia know. could ever happen, that a government could come in and That's a fact. We need more facilities to give the dignity dislocate people. This government promised the people and respect that our seniors deserve. of the Cowichan Valley — to the Duncan council when We're going to have more and more seniors in British they accepted the privatized care facility that was built in Columbia, and we need a government that's going to Duncan — that it would not result in the closure of public restore seniors rights in the future in British Columbia. beds. Every time there was a problem in Cowichan I fear that only the government that will soon come in District Hospital, they pointed to the new private facility three and a half years, if we have our way on this side and said: "When we have those extra beds, there won't of the House, will bring back true dignity and rights to be any more problems." seniors in British Columbia. Within two days of the postings closing at the pri- vate facility, VIHA, this government's agent, announced D. Routley: We will be supporting this bill. As the the closure of Cowichan Lodge, without consultation, previous member said, it is only baby steps towards meaning that the workers could not even move with the the giant strides that are needed to meet the true dig- residents. nity and respect that is deserving for our seniors in this Study after study shows us that dislocating seniors province. without proper consideration can result in 10 to 15 percent 1722 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

of those people dying almost immediately. That's what H. Bains: I'm also, actually, honoured to stand we saw in Duncan. That's what we saw in Cowichan. here and speak on Bill 17, (Residents' Bill of Rights) That's what this government is responsible for.A nd now Amendment Act, 2009. we should cheerlead them for this? I would be standing here and applauding the govern- It's a bit like robbing the bank and then making bank ment for bringing in this kind of bill if I knew that they robbery illegal the day later. They've already moved the were serious — if they were serious about what they were people. They've already closed the facilities. putting on paper. But their record, if you look at their The treatment of seniors has been atrocious. There's track record, is completely opposite of what they say. no guarantee in this bill of a senior receiving baths on Then they go out and quietly do different. I think that's a regular schedule. We had a man named Bill Cross in their record, and that's why I'm really, really skeptical. Chemainus who went 109 days without a bath in one of I'm skeptical that the language that is used here and their assisted-living complexes. This bill does nothing to the nice, catchy phrases that are there…. If they really, stop that from happening again. actually mean to do exactly what is needed under this [1840] bill, I think anybody would stand up and applaud This bill is offered by a government that has disre- them. If they were serious, they wouldn't be going to spected the pioneers and founders of our province. This the Newton Regency and telling those residents, who bill breaks a basic principle. This bill fails to defend the are actually happy to be where they are…. Their family rights of people, yet it still purports to do that. members are happy with where they are. But how could we vote against even the baby step Before the election they were promised that they that this bill takes? We'll support it, and I'm sure we'll could stay there as long as they wanted, as long as they offer amendments that will seek to improve its scope wished, and nobody would be forced out of their beds. and improve its ability to adequately defend the rights But after the election all of that changed again. That's of seniors and adequately provide for dignity for our why I'm skeptical. If they were really serious about doing what they say seniors. in this bill that they will be doing, then the Come Share It's atrocious that the members who sit on that side of program wouldn't be cut. It's only about $161,000 that the House support a government that took the steps it they took away from that society, which was needed, did in Cowichan Lodge and in Zion Park that dislocated which actually works day in and day out to help the people without consideration, that broke its own act seniors who cannot help themselves. Many, many vital by reducing the notice time. This is a sad commentary services are provided by the Come Share program. But on where we've come in this province. Everyone in this no, this government has to go out and cut $160,000. province expects more. That's why I say that they are not very serious. When you look into the eyes of seniors and the [1845] frustrated faces of their families as they come through If they were serious about doing what they are saying the doors of our constituency offices, often in tears — in this bill, they would not say no to the seniors advo- not able to find a place for their seniors, not able to find cate that we have put forward. That person would be adequate care for their seniors — and then hear this an independent officer who actually would be promot- government boast the way it does, it's appalling. ing the causes, who actually would be standing on the Even when you consider the care that has been side of the seniors, promoting the needs of the seniors offered in the privatized model and the inadequacy of in this province without the fear of getting the funding it…. I'll just offer you one commentary. This is commen- cut, without the fear that there's some political pressure tary on the financial difficulties of the Lodge on 4th in on that. That's what is needed. If they were serious, they Ladysmith. This is one of the staff members, who says would not say no to the seniors advocate. she's aware of the difficulties the lodge was having finan- If they were serious — they have been in power for cially. "Those difficulties have actually reflected on the eight years now — our seniors care standard wouldn't care of residents. We can't do it all. There have been lots be 25 percent lower than the national average. You know, of mistakes already." if they are serious even today, I would stand up and sup- She said that residents are found soiled and wet in the port them. But I know, judging by their track record, that morning. She says: "It's heartbreaking for us." I spoke to it's more of a political expediency rather than actually their family members, who have to sleep by their beds in doing the right thing. That's exactly the track record of order to guarantee that they have care. this government. This government is in denial, but the people ofB ritish Having said all of that, I must say that the language Columbia know the truth. Those of us who face those in this bill…. Even as small baby steps as they are, as people, who face this reality presented by this govern- my colleagues have said before, they are necessary. They ment's treatment of seniors, know the truth, and we are necessary, even as small as they are. So we would aren't about to forget it. be supporting that. I would be supporting that, because Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1723

any help over and above what is available to the seniors When you take a look at the health care budget, it today is a good thing. went from a little bit more than $8 billion to over $15 This bill doesn't go far enough. Certainly, we will be billion. That's almost double the budget. But when you watching how they implement this, how the seniors out talk to the opposition, they always complain about the there in the seniors care homes actually will be bene- cutbacks and the decrease in the budget. fiting from it. That's what we will be watching, but we People always wonder: "How can they add when you don't trust that. The public doesn't trust them, and the have a 100 percent increase, and that's a cutback?" They seniors and their families don't trust this government say: "That only happens only in the NDP world, not in — that it is actually serious about helping the seniors in the real world." this province. This is a bill that is really needed. When I talk to sen- Madam Speaker, I know the time is running very fast. iors, they say this is good for them. This is going to give There's a lot to talk about. them a lot more power, a lot more influence. This is a bill I can tell you that I want to talk about people who that's going to have their rights. built this province. They made us proud all across the [1850] world. We stand up proudly to say that we live in the best This bill will be posted right in the facility.I t will allow country in the world. That's because of those seniors. them to have more support for the social, cultural, reli- Those are the people that gave us health care. Those are gious, spiritual and other rights that they have. This is a the people that actually built our education system and bill that is going to make sure that people actually look all the other infrastructure, but today they feel ignored. at their rights and that they are respected. They feel neglected by this Liberal government. This is the first time in the history ofB ritish Columbia Having said that, I will sit down and take my place, that seniors will have these rights. When I talk to them, and we will be talking about it in the next stages. they say: "These rights are needed." They told me: "You should tell your Premier." They really appreciate the [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] input into the throne speech that they were going to do this. They always tell me, "Can you make sure you tell D. Hayer: I support Bill 17, the bill of rights for residents your minister who brought this bill?" because this is a care that promotes better care. When I talk to my con- bill that was really needed. stituents, actually, they're really happy about this bill. In closing, on behalf of Surrey-Tynehead, on behalf They say this was needed. of the Surrey residents who have received so many new They tell me that many times they hear members from seniors facilities, like five-star hotels…. They say, "I the opposition, from the NDP, complain about it, but wish these types of facilities were there in the 1990s," when they were in power for ten years, they never did when many of the facilities were not looked after. You anything. They always wonder: "Why is it they always know, you could not even get the wheelchairs through. complain now? When they were in power, why wouldn't Sometimes they sort of felt ashamed that their parents they have introduced a bill like this?" and their grandparents were living there. But they're I'd like to tell them that their job is to oppose and really happy that we have very nice facilities, and they complain, so they just do their job because that is what really appreciate that Bill 17 looks after the rights of the is required. But on the other side, we try to do the right seniors in the facilities so they're protected. things that are needed for our seniors. In closing, I want to say thank you very much to Seniors are who built this province, built this country, this House. I want to say thank you very much to the built this best place on earth to live in, as we say. When I members in opposition for saying their comments, even talk to seniors, they are so happy to see that there are so though they might not be true. many new facilities for seniors in Surrey. I can tell you that in the last eight years we have built new facilities in Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minister Surrey, and these facilities are like five-star hotels. of Healthy Living and Sport closes debate. I was looking at some of the stats since 2001. We have built more than 1,300 new and replaced beds for residen- Hon. I. Chong: I do want to take the opportunity to tial care, supportive care and assisted-living care. We have thank all members on both sides of the House who have built more than 6,000 net new beds and units. When the participated in second reading debate, although I want NDP was in power, you had to wait for almost one year to acknowledge as well that many of the speakers on to get a bed in a seniors facility. Nowadays it only takes, the other side of the House did manage to divert their on average, about 15 to 90 days. That's a big change. remarks into other areas — which is to be expected, I When you take a look at the increase in funding, we suppose. have increased the funding by $280 million for home One area I did hear many of the speakers refer to, and support care and home care, bringing it to $684 million. I do have to correct it for the record. I heard many ref- That's a 69 percent increase since 2001. erences to residential care beds. I just want to, for the 1724 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

record, say that unfortunately — and I know they won't Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported believe this — the NDP are wrong, as usual. resolution, was granted leave to sit again. In 2001 — yes, in 2001 — we did commit to estab- lishing 5,000 net new long-term and intermediate care Hon. I. Chong moved adjournment of the House. beds. But since that time to now, we have built over 6,000 net new residential care beds and assisted-living Motion approved. and supportive housing units. They made references to reports, but I note that the report they were using was Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 about a year out of date. I can appreciate the fact that a.m. tomorrow morning. they haven't got all of their information up to date, but it's available to them, and I would ask that they have a The House adjourned at 6:56 p.m. look at that. Our original commitment in 2001 was to have that fulfilled by 2006. Yes, as a result of having to refurbish PROCEEDINGS IN THE a number of old units and ensure that they were up to DOUGLAS FIR ROOM standards, it delayed our opportunity to have our com- mitment met by 2006. But we were able, by the end of Committee of Supply 2008, to reach that commitment. Since then we have built more, which is why our net new beds are beyond ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF the 5,000. HOUSING AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT I just also want to make reference to issues that were (continued) raised regarding wait times to get into these residential care homes. When I was first elected in 1996 as an oppos- The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. ition member and until 2001, I had family member after Bloy in the chair. family member who used to come into my office and also say the wait times were a year. Just as they thought The committee met at 2:35 p.m. their mother or father was going to be placed, they were told: "No, you've been bumped yet again." On Vote 36: ministry operations, $2,714,603,000 The average wait time is between 15 and 90 days.O ne (continued). year — 15 to 90 days. I think that's a marked improve- ment over what the NDP were able to do. We've had over S. Simpson: It's good to be back for another after- 6,000 net new beds in eight years. The NDP built 1,400 noon of Housing and Social Development. We're going net new beds in ten years. So I think the record is pretty to start with some questions related to liquor. We'll clear on that. go through those and then some questions that relate However, I do want to thank everyone for their com- to poverty issues, and then we'll spend the remainder ments. This bill is about ensuring a bill of rights that of our time, the bulk of our time, on housing-related will apply to all adult residents in care facilities. The matters. key reason for creating this bill of rights for persons in Regarding liquor, could the minister tell us what the residential care facilities is that, unlike those acute care status is…? The minister will recall that there was some facilities, the residential care facility is someone's pri- concern about what was happening around Olympic mary home. Residents are therefore entitled to have this wines and the whole issue about which wines would be consideration respected. forward and how that would all be dealt with in terms of I've heard members say that they were supportive of labelling what was cellared here versus actual B.C. wines the bill, so on that note, I move second reading. and their use in the Olympics. Could the minister give us an update as to what the Motion approved. status of that is, as to how wines will be used for official [1855] functions and such?

Hon. I. Chong: I move that the bill be referred to a Hon. R. Coleman: There is noO lympic wine. There's Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the no wine that's for the Olympics or that's been made for next sitting of the House after today. the Olympics. Basically, the issue was that for a long time, in generations going back, frankly, over two decades, Bill 17, Health Statutes (Residents' Bill of Rights) wineries in B.C. have been allowed to import what Amendment Act, 2009, read a second time and referred is fermented juice, to cellar it and make it in British to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at Columbia into the final product of wine. That was done the next sitting of the House after today. 20 years ago plus, back in I think it was the 1980s and Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1725

through the 1990s, to be able to create a cash flow basis S. Simpson: I agree with the minister that we had for wines in B.C. agreed that one of his officials would be going home. I At that time we didn't have the amount of grapes think the minister, at that time, had said that if there that were necessary to supply domestic demands, and were questions, I'd put them on the record, and if he we don't today, quite frankly. These were allowed to be wasn't able to answer them at this time because he didn't brought in, put in and labelled as a product of Canada have officials, answers would be provided in writing. — basically, cellared in the particular jurisdiction they That's fine by me. were in. That labelling issue is not a provincial issue; it's [1440] actually a federal issue. They're the ones to decide what The minister said that all the wines would be VQA. will take place on the labelling of wine. The wines used at the Olympics and served at the This became an issue on the placement of some wines Olympics as part of official functions would be B.C. from Vincor within some of our liquor stores, because VQA wines. Could the minister tell us, or could he Vincor is the wine sponsor that has bought the rights get the information to us, as to how the selection of to the Olympics. Vincor is part of a company called, I those wines will be made, since we have…. Obviously, think, Constellation. Constellation is one of the three Vincor is the sponsor for this, but there are a large largest wine companies in the world. They are allowed number of wineries and the smaller estate wineries to put that logo on any wine, anywhere in the world, and that in British Columbia. Are others going to whether it be British Columbian, Canadian or whatever have the opportunity to have their wines available as the case may be. well? As we went through that issue, we met with the industry — with Peller Estates and other companies, including Hon. R. Coleman: Let's be clear. The sponsored Vincor — across the country with regards to their labelling wines, which are Vincor, have bought the sponsorship to the Olympics, so official Olympic events during the and how these would be placed. We are changing the Olympics will only be serving Vincor wine that is VQA. placement of how the wine will be placed in the B.C. They bought those rights. Liquor Stores. They are not labelling it with the logo that Now, if there's another bar, hotel, venue that's having would bring in the questions with regards to it anymore a bit of a celebration around the Olympics that's not an for the stuff that will come in. officially sponsored venue, they can buy their wines from All wines that will be used at all venues at the whomever they want. They're not tied to the Olympic Olympics will be VQA wines produced by Vincor in sponsorship. British Columbia or in Canada. There will be 100 per- In the case of, let's say, an event at GM Place, where cent VQA wines, of 100 percent B.C. grapes, made in there's an official function of the Olympics, it will be B.C. That's the wine that will be served at all the venues Vincor wine, because Vincor and Constellation have that they will host at the Olympics. bought their rights. It's the same as we will have with regards to Molson's products at those same things S. Simpson: The minister has said there would be because they bought the Olympic rights, and they've changes made in terms of how the wine is displayed in paid millions of dollars for those rights. We don't have a liquor stores and the prominence of those wines. Could problem with that. the minister tell us when that's expected to occur? Any other wine that wants to…. If there's a B.C. night of celebration, we won't be restricting, because that's Hon. R. Coleman: Yesterday I asked the member not an official site, that sort of thing. Those will all whether it would be liquor distribution or licensing. I be worked out. But when it comes to official Olympic understood licensing would be the discussion on liquor. events with the International Olympic Committee and Jay Chambers, who is the general manager of the liquor VANOC, those people have bought the sponsorship. It's distribution branch…. We let him go home yesterday no different thanC oca-Cola. They've bought their spon- for that reason. sorship, and McDonalds have a sponsorship. They have My understanding is that once the inventory is used their rights to those events because they paid for the up, they're already doing the new signage. They've right to do that. already come to an agreement of what the statement will be. I think that it's going to say something…. I should S. Simpson: Having said that, I appreciate there are be careful. I know that it's not going to say that it's a B.C. formal events that are held where there are limits on wine. It will be moved out of the B.C. wine section. It the suppliers to those events based on who paid at that will be a product that will have a name like "cellared in time. The minister spoke of other opportunities or cele- Canada" or something that's acceptable to the jurisdic- brations or events that will evolve around the Olympics tions across Canada, and we will change their location that the government may play a role in but that won't in the liquor stores. be "official" events of the Olympics, where there would 1726 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

be opportunities for other B.C. producers of wines or has the beer and Coke has the rest of it. That's pretty maybe some of the craft producers of beer. much an international standard for Olympics. Then Some of the specialty beers and things that are pro- there are other opportunities for countries that will duced in British Columbia would have an opportunity come in and have other relationships with regards to to have their products there as B.C. products, as part liquor, like Heineken House, for instance, for the Dutch of that celebration. I would think, for example, maybe and that sort of thing, because those things will take some of those events at the Terminal City Club would place. be a good place for some of that to occur. What I will do for the member is endeavour to get Could the minister tell us: what is the expectation you an outline of what the BCWI is planning and who about how invitations will go to those other partici- they're working with from the secretariat. I don't have it pants — not at the formal events, the "official" events, at my fingertips. but those other events — so that there is opportunity for other producers or vintners and that who aren't part S. Simpson: Thanks to the minister for offering to of Vincor or other craft beer makers to be part of this provide that list. Just one more question in relation to celebration? How will that occur? How will they get this, because I'm not sure that I fully understand. invited to participate? Is the minister saying that government of British Columbia events that are outside the VANOC umbrella Hon. R. Coleman: The B.C. Wine Institute is already and the VANOC sponsorship but events hosted by the working with the B.C. games secretariat and with Robson government…. We've heard a lot of talk in the House Square to profile B.C. wines at a number of events that and elsewhere about the government taking advantage they will be sponsoring through the period of time of of this opportunity for economic development and other the Olympics. opportunities here to be able to host events that will fur- Other than that, we don't actually tell restaurants ther those things, and I appreciate that. That's outside of what to buy, or whatever. That's the competitive VANOC running the Olympics. environment of wines, and the restaurants will be able For those events, is the minister saying the Wine to buy from the liquor distribution whatever product Institute is taking responsibility for deciding how wines they wish. Those people who are out there promoting are provided at those events? Or does the government and selling or whatever would continue their normal have somebody through this ministry or some other vein of business. We don't do that now with regards to body, maybe the secretariat, who will take responsibil- the commercial activities in and around liquor, and we ity for deciding which vintners or brewers are invited wouldn't be stepping in today and doing that either. to bring product there — or other food and beverage products that are British Columbia that might not have S. Simpson: Maybe this is about clarification to some sponsorship? degree. Now, I understand the official events are hosted I'm just trying to determine that here. I understand by VANOC. They are the host party, not the govern- that the Wine Institute is going to do their job, and I ment of British Columbia directly. VANOC is the host think that's great. I just want to know how that relates party. At all the VANOC events it will be their sponsor to what British Columbia does in terms of making sure groups. It will be, then, Vincor. It will be Molson's. It will it maximizes exposure for British Columbia companies be those people who VANOC has agreements with, and and businesses. I understand that. The government of British Columbia will be hosting Hon. R. Coleman: My understanding is that the B.C. events itself that are complementary to that but are not Wine Institute is working on special events in different necessarily under the VANOC umbrella, I'm assuming. venues around Vancouver with regards to promoting Will this broader range of B.C. products be available at B.C. wines and what have you. I don't know. I know those events that are hosted by British Columbia outside that this ministry has nothing to do with that piece. I the VANOC umbrella? mean, we just did the licensing piece and what have [1445] you. Who's running what and doing what where is not our responsibility, and it's not in my purview to give an Hon. R. Coleman: I don't have all the events for the answer to that question otherwise. member. I'll see if I can get you the information, but We as a government, when we're hosting an official the B.C. Wine Institute, which is the organization that Olympic event, will have to live by the same arrange- basically represents VQA wines in B.C., is planning on a ments as VANOC has with regards to the sponsorships, number of receptions that they would feature B.C. wines which would be…. But if it's something that is broader, at during the Olympics. like if it's something we do with the B.C. Wine Institute, As I said, at any official function with regards to the then we will be able to do more with B.C. wines or Olympics Vincor has the sponsorship, just like Molson whatever product. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1727

I'll get some information from the secretariat for the general expansion of private liquor stores in the prov- member with regards to that. I don't know if you've done ince, but if there are government stores…. Let me get that ministry in estimates yet. If you haven't, you might this correct. If a government store closes, a private ask them. I'll find out what ministry it is too. I would operator could buy out the lease and essentially take that think that it would be the Olympic secretariat. store over and run it. Those are the places where you do closures and takeovers. That's what occurs. Is that what Interjection. happens?

Hon. R. Coleman: It probably is, and I don't know if Hon. R. Coleman: Right now there's a moratorium we've done her estimates. Is she done? Okay, so I'll get on additional private liquor stores. I think I know what some information for the member. the member's question is, so I'm going to try and deal [1450] with it this way. Any private store can move within a community to a S. Simpson: Thanks to the minister for that offer. different location within it today. One city has a differ- Really, I fully understand and respect the role of ent rule, and that's the city of Vancouver. In the city of sponsorship and the need to protect the interests of Vancouver if a government liquor store closes, in that sponsors when they purchase those interests. I agree location that it closed from — in spite of the fact that we with that. may be opening another liquor store a few blocks away But it would be great, where there are opportunities, — the city allows somebody to move another, like a beer- whether government-hosted events or other events, and-wine-store type of operation, in there to have a to take advantage of those opportunities for British liquor store. They're the only city that does that, because Columbia companies, especially with some of the won- they do not allow spirits in their beer and wine stores in derful vintners and craft beer people and other folks. the city of Vancouver. We have to take advantage of that, if we can, without [1455] breaching those agreements, obviously, through other When the private liquor store model came along, events. all the other communities, basically, in B.C. embraced A couple of other questions related to liquor matters. that and allowed them to separate and move to better Again, I respect that these may be questions that other locations within their communities. Vancouver said no, officials would answer.I 'd be happy to get those answers and then…. They've had a morphing of liquor rules in in writing, if that is the case. Vancouver which allows for what I've just described. Currently in British Columbia how many public The one that would be the best example in Vancouver liquor stores are there, and how many private liquor is a government liquor store on Hastings. Somebody stores are there? bought the property and the lease. They did not renew the lease with the Liquor Distribution Branch — had Hon. R. Coleman: While we're getting that data for another licence to move in there and were allowed you, cellared wines will be displayed in a new way within by Vancouver to move a liquor store into there. The our liquor stores within the next month. Liquor Distribution Branch found another location and There are presently 197 government liquor stores. opened another store, because that was allowed under There are 679 licensed retail stores, which would be the Vancouver's rules. private liquor stores. There are 223 rural agency stores. There are 220 on-site industry stores, which would be, I S. Simpson: I appreciate that. That is the issue that would suspect…. That would be the breweries. I'm talking about — the East Hastings store. The only correction I think I'd make at this point is S. Simpson: Like the Granville Island brew pub. that all of that has occurred, except there hasn't been a government liquor store opened. What we have is…. Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, that sort of thing. There We've had the store closed. would be 12 independent wine stores, 34 off-site industry I've spoken to people in the branch at the time that it stores and 11 duty-free stores. The on-site industry was closing. I was informed by them that it was not their stores I would suspect include wineries, breweries, dis- choice to close the store but, as the minister says, the tilleries and retail shops. lease had expired. The owner of the lease chose not to renew it, owns a few other facilities, stores and private S. Simpson: I'm getting to a question here about my operations, and was putting a private operation in, and own constituency at some point, but I'm just trying to that's how that occurred. understand some things as I get there. I was told at that time that there would be efforts to…. My understanding, and I'd be happy to be corrected They would be opening a new store. I think it was that if I haven't gotten this right, is that there is currently no they were going to be opening it…. It was some number 1728 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

of months ago that the expectation was it would be open. These operators, to the best of my knowledge, are I understand that there may be some issues, challenges, fine operators, and they do everything by the book. But around how that gets opened. for example, there's a big question in that commun- My question, then, to the minister, since he certainly ity because of the challenges some of the people meet seems to have knowledge of this specific issue: is it the around things like the sale of singles — single beers, intention of the LDB to open another store in that prox- things like that. A big issue. imity? I was told that it was a pretty good location for You get the folks…. They're out in front. They're revenue. To open in that location — is that the inten- panhandling. They're doing this and that. They're going tion? If so, does the minister have any idea when that in. They buy a couple of singles. They come out, sit there, might occur? drink the beers and panhandle the next few singles or whatever comes with that. Or they wander up and down Hon. R. Coleman: The last time I had the discus- the street with their beer in their hand, and that raises sion, they thought they had a location, and I didn't a concern. know whether they had got to the point of opening I know that when the business improvement associa- or not. They were negotiating leases and that sort of tion, based on its members, brought that to the govern- thing to see if there was something…. There was some ment store, they recognized that, and they ended the new construction, I believe, taking place somewhere practice of selling singles in that store. They realized on Hastings Street that they thought they had the that it was a community concern, a legitimate one, and opportunity. to the best of my knowledge, they said, "We will not sell The store was an average performer. It wasn't a high singles," and that ended. performer, but certainly they felt they still wanted to [1500] stay within that market and wanted to achieve bring- They went to the private store after it opened, and the ing a store back to that neighbourhood. But it's all private store said: "Singles are one of our biggest sell- a matter of when they build, what lease you can get. ers. We do well out of selling singles. We appreciate your Also, they're not going to be held to ransom for rent, problem, but no, we're not going to do that. We're not so they'll be as competitive as possible. So however going to change our practice." long it takes for them to do that in a way that meets Is the government looking at those kinds of issues their business case, that's what I would expect from in communities like mine in Hastings, where there are them. some challenges and some people that have difficult issues around alcohol and other things, and starting to S. Simpson: There's a fair amount of new construc- try to manage some of that — even if it's in some of the tion along Hastings there because of zoning changes that private stores — around how they sell? Is there any work have opened up a lot of new retail storefront. There's a being done around that? lot more vacant than has people in it at this point, so I think prices wouldn't be too bad for lease agreements at Hon. R. Coleman: The regulatory environment allows the moment in some of that new housing. for the sale of singles, whether it be a government liquor I would note that there was a great amount of concern. store or not, and it's up to the operator. You're right that I heard from an awful lot of people in the community in some liquor stores that were government-operated, when that store switched over to a private store, because sometimes we have actually stopped doing that practice it was done fairly quietly. Nobody was really aware of it because of a concern of the community. until it was almost upon them. One day it was a govern- This is not something that I would anticipate we ment store. Then the weekend passed, and all of a sudden would go change a bunch of regulations around, but I it was a private store, and people didn't even notice. The will undertake on behalf of the member to have a con- signs didn't change, other than it said "Hastings Liquor versation with the owners of that particular store and Store" instead of "Government of B.C. Liquor Store." ask them what it is, rather than have what they said People were concerned about that because it was their and whether they say it's a big piece of their business or preference to do business with the government store. I whatever. I think I'll go find out and then have a conver- know they're all anxious to see whether this government sation with them. store actually opens and they're able to go back and patronize there. S. Simpson: I'd appreciate that. I have had the conver- One of the issues that were raised around that…. It sation with the owners of the store, but the concern was was the local business improvement association that raised to me by the business improvement association raised this issue with me around the private store. They and their leadership who went and made that request were concerned about the private store and supported of the store. Then they spoke to me later when we were a government store staying there. Part of that revolved talking about that — when I was asking their advice around the practices of the store. about the possibility of a second store in the community, Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1729

a government store and a private store, and what occurs The question I have is…. I know this discussion has there. That's when that came out in that conversation been had before. It's the question of government stores from the business improvement association. offering chilled products — beer, white wines — putting Certainly, the manager of the private store acknowledged coolers on site, maybe, in some of the newer signature to me that that conversation had been had and that their stores or whatever. It's the ability to do that. business practice was to sell singles. So I'm happy that I know that the government has chosen not to do the minister will inquire about that. that. I know that the private operators wouldn't be very At this point in time I just have one more question, a happy about that because that is part of their piece of two-part question in regard to liquor matters, and then the market that's good for them — where they have 100 we'll move on to another matter. Are there any plans percent of the market there, essentially. around either further closures or openings of government Has the government given any consideration to put- stores in the province at this time? ting coolers on site in some of the signature stores at this time? Hon. R. Coleman: The branch has basically been asked to run their business, and they do that as a com- Hon. R. Coleman: I think that in a few select stores mercial Crown. There are a couple constraints in and we do have some cooled product. It's actually not around how they do their business today. our marketplace. Our marketplace is a larger store One is that we have a collective agreement with the in a market, more like a larger grocery store versus a B.C. Government Employees Union, and we can only 7-Eleven convenience where you come in and buy a cold close five stores over the period of the collective agree- product. ment. I think it is five stores in total; I don't think it's The cold product…. Installation of that in the stores five a year. That is good on one side and positive and is pretty expensive. We do look at it from time to time negative on the other. We actually have great success by in select locations to see if we think that would drive creating what we call signature stores where we bundle additional business outcomes. But there's no movement a number of stores together into a larger store, and we to go in and revamp all our stores today with regards end up with more employees than in the other three to adding cold product, because if there are renovations, stores that were operating. Our returns are better, but there's the cost of refrigeration. that piece restricts those stores. Then the discussion is: what's your return on making Yet today those are our most popular brand out there that investment? There hasn't been a strong enough in the public. They really like those stores because they business case made to me as the minister to show that have the selection, the different types of premium wines that would be worthwhile. and selections, the educated staff and all that stuff in The member is also right. When we did the whole those larger stores. We can't do any more of those by change in liquor and when private liquor stores were bundling unless we have an agreement with the union. allowed to have spirits and then move so that they would There's a lot of work that has to get done there. have decent locations and stuff, they were going to be At this time, other than upgrading some stores when more the convenience store of the business, and we were leases come up, which has happened in a couple places…. going to be more the upper-scale superstore, for lack of We had one closure on Main Street in Vancouver because a better description, of the business. they're doing construction, so we've had to move the That's why I think the signature stores are successful. store while the property is redeveloped. We would probably Our customers come there to those stores — and they're negotiate to go back into it — that sort of thing. That was high-volume stores — because they're coming for the a short-term closure. selection and the service and what have you. It's not We will go through the next number of months. We about convenience for them as much as it is about what have negotiations probably coming up, but it really is the experience of the shopping is and that they know about…. The number of stores on the government side is they can get the product, whereas the other side of the restricted by that agreement. We have to keep them at a business is more of a convenience-store model. certain number, and that's what we do because of the col- In some cases there's probably a piece in between lective agreement. We leave it like that. There's no antici- there we could deal with. But as we go through into the pation of closing a bunch of stores or anything like that. next level of discussions with the stores, as we do every [1505] year going into every budget cycle, that always comes up, and we have a discussion around it. We'll look at the S. Simpson: Yeah, my understanding of that was numbers again. pretty much the same. If the government opens a signa- ture store, then it could close two smaller stores as part S. Simpson: One last question on that, and then we'll of the deal. I thought that that was the agreement, but move over to other matters and off of liquor. The minis- the minister can correct that. ter spoke earlier about how the LDB and the liquor are 1730 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

kind of an independent entity. It does its business and, declined by 29,000 children, which was a 21 percent you know, follows the rules that are set. But it's up to the reduction between 2006 and 2007. The incidence of LDB as a business to do what's best for its business, have children living on low incomes declined 13 percent in the best return on investment while having a respon- 2007. It's the lowest rate since 1991. sible operation. B.C. has accounted for 20 percent of the national Those decisions, like…. If the decision, for example, decline in child poverty since 2001. The proportion is to go to chilled products in some or all stores, but the of families living in poverty is decreasing, and family decision generally…. Is that a decision that's the LDB's incomes are increasing. The percentage of families with decision? Is that a decision that would have to come back after-tax real income below $10,000 reached 2.8 and get the approval of the minister, or is that kind of for percent of British Columbians by 1990. Then since 1999 the LDB as an independent entity to do on its own? it's fallen to 1.9 percent in 2006 — a 32 percent decline. At the same time, the percentage of families with after- Hon. R. Coleman: The minister sets the policy under tax real income between $10,000 and $20,000 fell from the Liquor Distribution Act. They are governed by the 6.5 percent in 1998 to 3.8 percent in 2006, which is a 42 policy that's established by government with regards to percent decline. their operation. So those types of things would come Today we have the lowest provincial income tax rates through the ministry, probably to Finance and Treasury for low-income earners — an $11,000 personal income Board, for a proper decision before they would be tax credit and no provincial taxes for those with incomes allowed to make those types of major changes. below $18,000. We have the child tax benefit, which is the B.C. Family Bonus; the National Child Benefit; and S. Simpson: I was going to move now to some poverty the universal child care subsidy up to $385 a month. reduction issues. What I'd like to speak about for a bit of There's the provincial child care subsidy of up to $550 time now is the question of poverty reduction in more a month. general and more comprehensive terms. We have new investments in forms of housing, as well [1510] as the rental assistance program and a number of other The minister will know that there are a number of things that I could list off. provinces — Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland are The statistical side, which we measure across ministries three that come to mind immediately — that have, — the first onesI described. We recognize that a number through either legislation or regulation, put in place of other provinces have adopted official anti-poverty poverty reduction strategies that have benchmarks and strategies with multi-year reduction targets. timelines to look at how they deal with poverty issues [1515] within their jurisdictions, and they measure and report The current economic recession provides a good out. Some of them have had some success, I believe. example of how the labour market and budgetary plans Quebec reported out a reasonable amount of success and priorities of the province can change unexpectedly, over the last six or seven years on bringing down pov- making specific targets not necessarily feasible. erty to some degree, and they measure against govern- We're confident that pursuing a cross-ministry ment objectives. approach to poverty reduction — together with My question to the minister is: has the government the Ministry of Children and Family Development, of British Columbia considered poverty reduction as an Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation, Advanced initiative in a way comparable to some of those other Education and Labour Market Development, Finance, provinces? Health Services and others — allows us to meet this challenge the most effectively. We think our statistics Hon. R. Coleman: On the question as a whole, the start to bear that out. answer is no. We actually measure a number of things, however, across ministries within government with S. Simpson: Those numbers…. Could the minister regards to poverty reduction, and I will give the member tell us the low-income cutoff after taxes, which is Stats some examples of that. For instance, we actually meas- Canada's key measurement that they use to meas- ure low-income trends and whether they're improving. ure poverty? How does British Columbia do on that We measure social assistance rates and how we're doing measurement in relation to other provinces? Where do and those types of things. we stand? For instance, the percentage of the population with incomes below the low-income cutoff — which is a Hon. R. Coleman: This is, if anything, a complex measurement in Canada called LICO — in 2007 was issue to debate. What I will tell the member is that 11.1 percent of the population. That's the lowest it's been British Columbia has ranked as one of the lowest in the since 1990. In 2001 the rate was 14.1 percent. The per- country since about 1998. It has ranked the same since centage of children living in low-income households 1999 until 2007, which — based on this one measure, Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1731 which is this low-income cutoff — would be sufficient to you look at child poverty in terms of those issues. We say that we're the worst in the country. also have a very poor performance. However, even the reports that I've read always caution Part of the issue here…. I guess this brings me back to not use this as the only measure, because these are to the question of a poverty reduction strategy and why just statistical and are not a measure of other aspects I'm of the belief that putting in place such a strategy that with regards to jurisdictions. has clear benchmarks and timelines makes some good One of the measurements that goes into this calcula- sense. I don't want to get into a political debate about tion is the cost of housing and the cost of living, which that, but I do want to talk a little bit about some of the are higher in our jurisdiction than they are in, let's say, aspects of that. P.E.I., where they have lower-cost housing and a lower One of the challenges, and I'll acknowledge this with cost of living. So they move up the list in a different the minister…. The minister talks about how there are way. certain aspects of what British Columbia does that are The low-income cutoff is an indicator of low income, making positive steps in terms of dealing with some of which is often interpreted as a poverty line. However, these issues, and other areas where maybe there's not poverty is more complex than just family income. For quite as much being done. Part of the thinking around instance, this calculation does not take into account a poverty reduction strategy that is in place through 8,000 rent supplements for families in B.C. This would regulation or legislation is that almost always there is be the equivalent of having 8,000 units of social hous- transparency and that there's some reporting around that. ing subsidized, which other jurisdictions don't have. Usually, these strategies talk about housing, about Because they don't calculate that in there, it doesn't child care and about training and a number of aspects come in as one of the calculations. that are in most of these plans in some way, shape or Just so the member is understanding…. Our low- form. It allows the government, quite frankly, to talk income rate, basically, in 1999, for instance, was 16.4 about how, in those key components, progress is being percent, and we were still ranked the worst in the country made to address the problem. on that LICO. None of these are short-term problems. They're very [1520] long-term. The cycle of poverty is very tough to break. By 2007 that had dropped to 11.1 percent, and we So it's a big challenge there. were still ranked worst in the country by that single I understand that the minister has said that the statistical model. Yet if you look at the fact that today government has made the choice not to put a formal there are something like 30,000 additional folks that are plan in place, as some other jurisdictions have. So my no longer in that cutoff, that's a good-news story. question to the minister is: how can the government The challenge is that there's a differential cost of living, best report out the components and the pieces in some and there's a differential…. That's why we measure these way where they are connected so that an observer of particular statistics that I read into the record before for it — people who are concerned about this issue — can the member: to try and measure what the real rate is see how those pieces fit together if the government has with regards to this stuff. initiatives to reduce poverty? I don't see that currently in When you drop by a huge percentage of 21 percent how things get reported. of people from 2006 to 2007…. Then the incidence of How does that happen, or is that important for the children living in low income declined by 13 percent in government to be able to report that? 2007 to the lowest rate since 1991. A lot of the things [1525] successive governments have done on this file have always been an argument on behalf of British Columbia, Hon. R. Coleman: I apologize to any member of my no matter who's been in government. family who is watching this on TV, which is probably I remember this discussion back in opposition. It was slim to none, that they see their father actually wearing always around…. Somebody would take one statistical glasses to stand up and do this. Usually it's just to read model, use it as a public statement and not recognize very small print, but I think that my eyes are a little more what successive governments were doing to reduce the tired today. rate. Anyway, one thing we did in government — we If you look at the statistics, you will understand that brought this ministry together. This ministry was when you have a 20 percent decline in the…. When one brought together about 18 months ago to consolidate a province, since 2001, has accounted for 20 percent of the number of issues in and around housing, social develop- national decline in child poverty — that being British ment, social services and what have you — to coordinate Columbia — we're doing something right. across government and integrate services with regards to all these issues. S. Simpson: As the minister said, if you use the low- There is some work being done to come up with a income cutoff we rank as the worst. It's the same as if report with regards to this, which we would make public 1732 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009 when it is completed. We will check, because I think that, service that were integrated and thoughtful and actually, these are statistics that would not hurt to be linked together. I think that's a good thing, and I published. know it's not an easy thing to do. I think if that's the I don't think I'm afraid that anybody would see ministry's objective, that's a good objective. That's them, actually. I would just as soon people did know, certainly what I read it to be. for instance, that the findings for our province…. The The minister and the ministry have taken that proportion of British Columbians living in low income approach and saw fit to do that and to look at doing that, as defined by the MBM fell from 16.3 percent in 2006 which brings me back to the question that I think is the to 13.4 percent in 2007, continuing a downward trend key one around poverty reduction — whether you call from 22.6 percent in the year 2000. I mean, that's a drop it a single plan or whatever you call it. The minister read of over 9 percent — almost a 10 percent drop in that out a number of statistics where he sees the government period of time. making improvements in a number of areas and will All age groups and family types experienced a decline report that out. in incidence of low income during that period of time. Has the ministry or the government got any inten- Children under the age of 18 experienced a 17 percent tions, as it does in other areas, to say that our object- decline in low income from 2006 to 2007, going from 22 ive is to take…? I believe it's 13 percent. So 13 percent percent to 18.4 percent, which is down from 26.1 percent was the poverty rate, the current rate, I believe. It might in the year 2000. Seniors over the age of 65 experienced have been less, but it had gone down from 22 to 13 or the largest decline in low income. Their low-income something to that effect. If I misquote the number, my incidence fell from 6.1 percent in 2006 to 3.8 percent in apologies. 2007 and has dropped by 70 percent since the year 2000, [1530] when it was sitting at 12.8 percent. Does the government have a strategy here to say: "Our These are consistent with the changes in the after-tax intention is to bring that number down a further 2 per- LICO over the same period. Low income measured by cent or 3 percent or 4 percent by a given time — three, MBM is higher than measured by LICO for all people, four, five years out or whatever that time period is — children in most age groups and families. The overall and we can make further progress because we're doing rate of low income for B.C. in 2007 was higher because things on housing, child care, income and job creation, of different things that are put into that formula versus etc."? a LICO formula. Is that the intention of government — to put some There is a plethora of these types of statistics. I agree targets out there that allow people to say: "Okay, let's see with the member that we will find a venue to post all whether they can meet those targets"? that information, if it's not posted now, which we could point him to. If it isn't posted, we're going to find a Hon. R. Coleman: I guess that it's a question of how venue, because these things should be out there. This is we go about doing things in deference to each other's actually pretty good statistical information for people to opinion about it. see, when they ask questions in and around the questions that the member is asking. [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.]

S. Simpson: I think it would be a good thing to put For instance, as a minister I prefer to take a specific that information out. issue and say that we're going to put targets around this I know that the minister, when the creation of Housing piece, this piece and this piece versus saying we're going and Social Development was done…. I've read the ser- to have another study done that everybody can read and vice plans and heard the minister's comments that part say: "Well, gee, that was nice we had a study, but what of this initiative…. I suspect that this minister was one are you going to do about the study?" I actually like to of the people who motivated the creation of the ministry, see results, so when I've talked to our folks in the min- this bringing together of these pieces to create Housing istry and folks out there, I say: "What do we do for low- and Social Development. I suspect that you might have income families, and what can we improve?" suggested it somewhere. Regardless of that, if you didn't, For instance, we most recently raised the threshold you probably should have. for tax exemption for families in B.C. for each spouse — One of the things the minister talks about with which amounts to about $1,600-some-odd a year for low- the establishment of the ministry is that part of income families. That's the type of discussion you take the reason for doing that was to bring these pieces to the table and try and improve things. I think those are together to be able to break down some of the silos the types of things that bring us down to 11.1 percent as that come together around addressing issues like the lowest since 1990 on the LICO measurement and poverty and concerns of our most vulnerable cit- 13-point-something on the other measurement, because izens and to be able to create some continuums of there are different factors in both measurements. But Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1733

both actually show the same trend, and that is a declin- think, though — I agree with the member — that to ing number. compile it in one place and say this is where we are year One of the challenges when you deal with this file or over year and to put that information out there would be any other file, when you try and set hard-and-fast rules, valuable for everyone to see. If it's not up, we're going to is that there are a couple of things you can't control. For find a way to do that. instance, we're in a significant recession right now. As the member knows, our welfare rolls, as we discussed S. Simpson: I appreciate that the minister is going to yesterday, are going up. make that happen if it hasn't happened, and I think it is a There would be nothing you could have done in a hard good thing for people to be able to get those numbers in target to change that dynamic because of the recession, one place. I think the minister is correct that in certain the loss of jobs and people coming off unemployment areas, progress is being made to bring the percentages insurance and onto the welfare rolls and collecting down. social assistance. That's why a global measurement, I guess those who might be critical of the government that type of thing, has always concerned me on these in some way would say that Canada is an affluent place, particular things versus trying to find and measure real and we all do well. Let's look at how we're doing in what progress. has been one of the most prosperous provinces, second I have to admit that when I went over these num- only to Alberta and often not second toA lberta in terms bers, even though I thought we were doing pretty well, of the prosperity of the province. I was even more pleasantly surprised. As we looked at Should we be in the place relative to other provinces year over year, there are pretty dramatic number drops that we are in terms of how we rank? That's another in some of these areas. When you take one year from debate. We both know we can use statistics and numbers 2006 to 2007, and you have 29,000 fewer children in a in a whole bunch of different ways, depending on what low-income situation, which is a 21 percent decline in a we want to achieve out of them. 12-month period, that's pretty good. In answer to a previous question, the minister talked As you measure it, though, you always have to realize about a report being done that he said would be released that there could be additional stresses if the economy when it was completed. It was in relation to some of changed. So the one good thing for British Columbia…. these matters related to poverty. It was a bit of a pre- I'm not going to take any credit for any particular time amble to the answer to one of the questions. If he recalls of life here, but I think it's a credit to our province as a that answer, I wonder if the minister, without breach- whole that over the last number of years since 1998, we ing any confidentiality, could tell us a little more about successfully brought this number down, this percentage the purpose of that report he was speaking about. It down, year after year after year. sounded interesting. We do that because we come up with programs, no matter what the government is, to encourage cer- Hon. R. Coleman: It's in the early stages of develop- tain things to happen within this particular aspect or ment of what the terms of reference are. It's basically to bring additional supports into certain areas. I actually look at all the things that we're discussing and put them do believe that one of the significant things that we've into a report to show how they're measured with regards done for families, for instance, is the rent assistance to other measurements across the country. program. One of the challenges we've always had…. If you The reason I say that is not because we did it, but get the StatsCan report, it says X province is number because I know that if you had tried in 2006, when you two worst in the country or number one worst in the put it in place, to build 8,000 units of housing for low- country. Down at the bottom there's a proviso that says income families, it would have cost you somewhere don't use these statistics to actually basically — if I had around $2.1 billion or $2.4 billion to start with, if you the quote…. I have it, but it basically says that these were lucky to find the land at a value you could afford to statistics are not to be relied on as a total measurement do it at. It would have taken you more than probably five of X. or seven years to do it. In the meantime 8,000 families I've had some conversations, and I've given some today are getting some help. direction with regards to having a look at that. We're just [1535] working through the terms of reference now. The work I think that changes the dynamic because it also takes would get done, and then it would get published. It is the pressure off the wait-lists in another piece of govern- early, and I probably shouldn't disclose yet what that is, ment like B.C. Housing, which dropped by 50 percent in but it certainly is something that I think is a worthwhile their wait-list as a result of those type of programs. project that's going to get done. Then we'll be able to I don't even know if the member and I are agreeing take the statistical-type things we're talking about and or disagreeing here. I think we both recognize that we're actually be fair to ourselves in British Columbia as to doing statistical stuff here and how we measure it. I do what the measurements are. 1734 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

If you look at some of the ways they do some of these would work in a combination of the transition of youth things…. Well, one of the factors is the cost of housing. through different ages of their life. Everybody knows the cost of housing in the Lower When they come on social services…. To make sure Mainland of British Columbia and Victoria is pretty it's integrated between the two ministries, we've had a high. If you put that in as a piece of the calculation on very good collaborative relationship with regards to that. a LICO measurement before everything else that's done Both ministers and ministries and their deputies are that's good on the ground is measured as to what a juris- pretty alive to it. diction is doing for poverty, it is basically already skewed When it comes to things like first nations and aboriginal by the price of some things that are put into the formula stuff, we do a lot of off-reserve housing in coordination at the front end. with Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. We also do Can you get to where you can look at what you're a lot of work with them on an integrated basis because doing and what your outcomes are — like the outcomes of the large percentage of first nations that are actually I've quoted here — and say these are coming as a result? in our social housing network of housing, particularly in And if you add in this, this is why now, on a national Vancouver and Prince George where we have a large por- basis, the comparison is either fair or unfair. That's what tion of those folks. I'd like to get to with that little body of work. But I don't think we have decided there's a lead min- istry. What we do is agree within ministries on certain S. Simpson: I would agree that there are lots of differ- initiatives that one ministry is going to take the lead on ent ways to measure. I believe the minister talked about versus the other. When that happens, it becomes an housing, and I know that's why there's some debate integrated relationship. We have some good examples about the different models around poverty reduction. that we'll probably talk about in housing about that Quebec has one approach. Newfoundland has another integration and taking that lead and saying, "This is approach. who's in charge of this body of work," and all other [1540] ministers work into it — make things successful on Quebec has identified some significant success in the individual things. last short while, and there's some suggestion that applies [1545] to things they were able to do. I believe the area of housing It's like the transition that's presently taking place on is where their success was found because, as the minister developmental disabilities. We could have all said, "Well, would note, housing costs are a significant part of the we have a silo here with regards to what the recommen- cost to people who have marginal incomes. dation was," which was to take developmentally disabled There are a number of pieces to deal with this, whether children back into Children and Families, because we it's education, child care, other pieces — pieces that are had the CLBC, and they were contracting over there. outside the purview of this minister and his portfolio. It was determined that there would be better service. I think I've heard the minister speak about this before Instead of all sort of fighting over the thing, we said: — about again trying to break down some of the silos "Right. Let's make this happen." inherent in government. It's difficult for any govern- It's about the individual, and I think that in all the ment at the senior levels, I think, to get through those social services ministries, if you're going to have success, silos and create the kind of cooperation or integration you have to step away every time out of a silo. You have in government that's necessary. to take the step back and say: "It's not about that building. Could the minister tell us: how do those discussions It's not about your policy shop. It's not about your team. go on around all of these issues related to poverty within It's about that person who we're trying to help." And if government, and is his ministry the lead ministry on you integrate in government on that basis all your policy, this? Is it the one that drives those discussions when your direction, your regulatory, your management and deputies or ADMs or whoever are having that discussion? everything else, you will actually get success. And is there a conscious strategy that crosses over ministries The minute you step back and say, "This is my territory; — Education, MCFD, Aboriginal Relations? Or has that I'm in charge," or whatever, I think you fail because you discussion happened? fail the individual who needs the multiple services. For instance, with a child in Children and Families who's in Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know that you'd describe it foster care, there's a relationship back from them maybe as the lead ministry. This ministry does a lot of integration to us in some social services help, but we want that to with other ministries on all kinds of things. be seamless. If a child is moving from youth to adult, Our social services side, for instance, works very we want a seamless relationship for developmental closely with Children and Families with regards to disabilities. youth — whether it's issues in and around the child in I think a developmentally disabled person is a classic the home of a relative, which we transferred back over example of this type of thing. At 16, we will know when to them and worked with them on that, and how that somebody is going to need our services as an adult. At Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1735

17½, we will go to the individual's family and say: "In to take the lead, to be the integrating force with issues six months you're entitled to social services for per- in and around homelessness, mental health, addiction, sons with disabilities." We will take the application in social services — all the issues the ministry deals with — the home rather than make them go to the office so and to be the coordinating body on a number of initia- that their life isn't disrupted as they come through that tives taking place that we'll probably get into during the system of integration with the ministries. Then at 19, housing piece. there's a seamless handoff, because we already know the When we announced that we were going to do the services that individual is going to need at 19. So CLBC integration project, which is a very, very successful is ready for the intake to deliver the services. project…. When we get into that, the member will be It's the same thing with this sort of thing. You look at amazed at its success, I think, because it is absolutely your statistics and say: "How many children in care is a one of those phenomenal success stories for people in measurement with regards to the success of how many B.C. families are being helped to stay together?" As each When that happened, this ministry was given the piece of the puzzle comes together, it still comes down mandate by government to be the lead and have, for lack to being about the individual person. If we keep that of a better description, the responsibility to coordin- focus in the social ministries, I think we're successful. ate government. It was, for lack of a better description, If we slide away from that into another model, I think given the mandate to say to other ministries, in an area we fail. I think we've been very good in the last number where services were being delivered in five cities of years at building that integrated relationship across across B.C., that if they were in a duplication of ser- government. vices, the ministry could say: "No, you're not doing it that way anymore. You're amalgamating or integrating S. Simpson: The last little bit in this portion is where this with this with better results. And by the way, the we get to policy-wonk a little bit here before we'll get money comes with it." back to other things. That is probably the key piece of an intervention I'm going to bring the discussion now to East strategy. It would be easy to go in and say: "Okay, you Vancouver and the Downtown Eastside, which obviously guys need to shut down your ACT teams, and we'll have the minister knows very well. He has done a lot of work our outreach teams." Well, they'll shut them down in a around the Downtown Eastside and has focused a fair second if they can take the dollars back into that par- amount of his efforts into that area. But what I want ticular ministry. to talk about here are some of the broad things. We'll But if you can say, "We'll shut down this and do this, get into some of the very specifics in housing, around but the dollars, the global dollars, either stay in that por- homelessness and around some of the specific projects, tion of the operation or else go into additional supports" and we will go through that in some detail in the housing — into housing or shelters or whatever the case may be piece. — that's when you get the real power of the integration I don't think it was necessarily initiated by the provin- and when all people start to understand that there is sort cial government, but there certainly was the discussion of that momentum of a ministry that has the mandate to about the czar of services in the Downtown Eastside get on board and make it happen. and who would do that and who wouldn't. Thankfully,I The mandate for this ministry on that particular piece think, in large part, nobody got that job, because I don't is precisely that. I have to say to the member opposite think it's a doable job. I don't think it works. that I am more than pleased with the cooperation on However, having said that, it appears — and the min- that entire initiative — integration — from all of the ister can correct me — that the minister certainly is the ministries related to it. lead on how the provincial government responds to the In the time I've been in government, to see that work wide array of initiatives and issues in the Downtown come together in an integrated fashion — when people Eastside and seems to have that file pretty well in hand put aside their egos and their territories and their silos — not exclusively, but pretty well in hand — and is the for the benefit of the people we're trying to help — is lead on that. one of the remarkable stories. When I look back, when- Maybe the first question is: would it be correct that ever I am not in this business anymore, it will be one of this minister is the lead when it comes to how the gov- the highlights of the time that I've been in this House, ernment deals with the very complicated issues around because I've seen people decide what's important. the Downtown Eastside and the folks who are living What's important is the people we want to help, and there? if that's important, then we're all putting aside our dif- [1550] ferences or our territories or our silos, and we're making that happen. I think it's the right move to do that. Hon. R. Coleman: The ministry was put together Unfortunately, because what I described happened, to bring together a number of aspects of government, somebody in the media decided they had to call somebody 1736 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

a czar. The reality is that we didn't appoint a czar because services that are making a meaningful difference for that the Premier actually answered the question one day and individual's life. I think that's a good thing. said: "The minister is the czar because he's in charge of this But the other approach, and they're not exclusive by ministry as the minister." We didn't appoint a person and any means, is the community development approach say: "That's the czar." that says you develop a community around that, in addition But I can tell you why. We have a person in charge to the individuals. of the housing intervention project on this whole inte- The question I have for the minister is: how does the gration plan, who is phenomenal at what she does and minister see the role of Housing and Social Development is doing a terrific job on behalf of British Columbians. to support that community development model that Because of her leadership, we're having great success. tries to build or strengthen those folks who want to remain in that community and not pressure them out S. Simpson: I appreciate the minister's comments. — not through a conscious or malicious way, but just When I look at the Downtown Eastside and look at that through the nature of that downtown developing the community — that's where I was born; I grew up there way it's developing? in the Downtown Eastside — it's interesting. How do you sustain a community of people who want One of the things I see when I talk to organizations and to remain there but may not be able to for a whole array groups down there — who will acknowledge, certainly, the of reasons that aren't because anybody did anything bad work that the government has done in terms of buying but because that's how life goes when you gentrify? the SROs, supporting Insite and a number of things, I'd be interested to know: does the minister think other programs or initiatives that have gone on down it's a problem or an issue? If not, then that's fine. But if there — the challenge seems to be this. And I'd be inter- he does, then how does the government support those ested in the minister's comments on this. organizations in the community who are trying to sustain What we're seeing is that we have a real community the development of their community in a way that's here. When you take away some of the predator drug inclusive for all those people as well as the new people dealers and some of the bad actors down there, you have who are obviously coming? a lot of people who've lived in that community a long time. They have issues and challenges, but it truly is their Hon. R. Coleman: I think, quite frankly, one of the community, and they have a lot of complexity that they exciting things that's happening in the Downtown have to deal with. Eastside is a bit of gentrification in combination with [1555] an investment made by government in 23 single-room- Many of those issues are issues that fall into the min- occupancy hotels that have been changed for betterment ister's purview, that he and his officials are working on. from the standpoint of what were real cesspools into livable But this is a community, and it's a community that we housing with supports for people who have mental now see, of course, has got greater pressures around health and addiction issues down there. gentrification. I think that the service groups that are actually wanting The opening of Woodward's is an outstanding thing — to service the Downtown Eastside would tell you that that Woodward's has been developed. But as we all know, they have a great relationship with government and a the development of Woodward's is going to trigger a great relationship with the city and the community whole lot of other development that won't necessarily be trying to build a model around it. done with the same levels of social responsibility that There are people in Vancouver on the Downtown Woodward's was developed with in terms of the balance Eastside, organizations and societies, that don't want of social housing units, the balance of public entities, change. They actually are folks that will oppose or criticize those things. most things. They'll do that because they're afraid of the The folks across on the other side of Hastings Street fact that this neighbourhood may change for the better. are waiting for Woodward's to open for them to develop, They're afraid of the fact that an integration of this neigh- and I think there's a lot of concern that it's going to bourhood might be good for everybody. be gentrification — not what I think Woodward's has The one thingI would hesitate anybody to say is: don't intended to do, which was to bring upgrades to the com- allow some gentrification in this neighbourhood because munity, but also to incorporate some stability for the we want to keep doing things exactly the same way as we people who make that community up. did for the last 25 years and got the same results. That comes back to the comment the minister made Woodward's is a good example, as the member said. earlier about how he views services being delivered. He Woodward's was a long-time project. It took a very long talks about viewing the individual and that it's important time to do. that you look aside and you look at what you're doing for It took significant risk on behalf of government on that individual who requires help. You deliver that, and two pieces of Woodward's to actually make the project you measure by whether you've delivered the kinds of go — one being the faculty of performing arts that Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1737

Simon Fraser is putting into one corner of the building, My favourite place to go on the Internet is to go to the which was a tens-of-millions-dollar investment by gov- B.C. Housing websiteonce in a while and remind myself ernment to make that thing a reality. That allowed for why we're doing this. I would invite the members oppos- the anchor tenants which would come in there — which ite to do the same. Go there, and go find the vignettes were London Drugs and Save-On-Foods and that sort about people whose lives have changed because of of commercial activity on the bottom floor — and then something simple changing their life. an investment of a couple of hundred units, which is 75 Even though they may be integrated into a neigh- units for low-income families and 125 units of supportive bourhood, into a single-room-occupancy hotel, and housing. there could be something next door that is completely [1600] different, it doesn’t matter.B ecause what it is here is that It gives us the opportunity, like in a couple of other there has to be a vision for a neighbourhood that, as the projects, to show that we can actually integrate this member says, provides services and compassion and neighbourhood — that people who, in most people's that has a non-profit…. minds, would say: "I don't want them living in my neigh- I believe that without the non-profit sector, by the way, bourhood…." That's what we get when we get public no government can be successful — on the Downtown hearings on any type of supportive housing in places all Eastside or any area around B.C. — with regards to over British Columbia. They'll have every excuse as to housing for people that are in a situation in which they why they don't want them in their neighbourhood, but need supports. that's the reality. They'll say it's going to be traffic, crime, I'll give you just one example. There's a vignette.I 'll probably noise or whatever. get the numbers wrong, but I'll give the member, sort of, This opportunity with Woodward's is to show: "Wow. the feel of the story. We bought an SRO in Vancouver. We We've got two spectacular towers here of retail housing had a young lady who went into the SRO a year before the integrated with 125 units of supportive housing, 75 units vignette was done — actually, almost two years. of low-income family housing. It's all on one single site The vignette is this. It's the mother sitting there and and integrated." saying: "I have two daughters, a middle-class family. I've always believed that that integration is the best One went one way; one went the other. One went on thing for everybody. I've always believed that to take and got an education and has a family. They both had people and say, or massive projects that were done…. If a normal childhood. The other one got into drugs and you look at major cities all over North America, they're into prostitution." bulldozing what they used to call their projects, because Last year, the year before she moved into this place…. the social experiments of housing all people of one It was a single-room-occupancy room — right? It wasn't socioeconomic level in one place and not supporting a palace. It wasn't a mansion. It was a room. It was the them became an abject failure. building that counted with the people inside it. She goes So what you need to do is shift. The shift that we made into this building, and there are supports for meals, and in 2005-2006…. It actually all started in 2004 with the there is support for her mental health issues and her Premier's Task Force on Homelessness, Mental Illness addiction issues. They walk her through a program, and and Addictions. The mayors came into — and I wasn't they turn her life around. the minister then — meetings with the minister at the The telling thing is this. The year before she went into time and the Premier and talked about how their cities that particular unit, she had been in hospital over 100 should look different with regards to the relationship times. She had been in police custody a number of times. of social housing, mental health, addiction, homeless- She was disruptive. She had problems with social agencies — ness. They said they were prepared to try something all kinds of problems. The year after, she was in hospital different. three times. That led to the next phase of this thing, which was [1605] a challenge to municipalities to say: "Okay, if you want What you have to be careful about when you're building us to invest capital and what have you in buildings, first a neighbourhood of caring is that you remember, still we have to understand that you're prepared to cooperate. again, that it's about the people. I believe the integration Development cost charges. Do you have land? Can you that is taking place with those types of services and the speed up rezoning processes — those sort of things — fact that we've made this significant investment in those if you're actually serious to accomplish this within your buildings, which are not in the control of some private communities?" developer, is actually a good thing because it will allow That led to the starting of the development ofH ousing us to continue that caring model of building on that for Matters B.C., which is B.C.'s housing strategy today. If the services for people in those facilities and in addi- you look at it, it's really about a continuum for people. tional facilities that we're building today. It's not about bricks and mortar and how many units; it's I remember when we bought the first ten ROS s. There actually about how we can help an individual person. was concern out there, including from the member for 1738 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant — who at that time didn't additional units. We'll talk through the developments know what we were doing, so it was a legitimate concern. in Vancouver in a short while. Part of this concern…. The concern was that a big developer was buying up all The minister speaks about the housing stock down there, the SROs in Vancouver and that they were going to and I concur with much of that. develop all these buildings and destroy the stock. Now, You know, I grew up in that area. I grew up in the when it came out that we had bought the ten buildings, Raymur housing project with my mother and my sister the opposite reaction was there: "Well, that's good." And on a very limited income. We ended up there for a whole that was fair. bunch of circumstances, and I know I spent all of my I think the model we have is that if we continue teenage years there. My ability to find some success in to build a basis of support, we continue to let people my life certainly started with the fact that the housing transition — not just on the Downtown Eastside but in problem was addressed for my mother, because she had places like the Burnaby Centre for Mental Health and a place that was safe, secure and affordable and where Addictions. We identify their issues, and we can transi- she could raise her kids. That, for us, created the foun- tion them into significantly supportive housing. Some dation that allowed both my sister and me to have some of those folks, with their mental health and addictions success in our lives. issues, particularly the mental health issue, will have We'll get to talk about this, because part of the piece, difficulty even functioning in supportive housing. We if there's a piece to what the minister talks about where have a place for them, and we do have two projects on I think there's more work to be done, certainly, through the go for that — one in Mission and one at Riverview. B.C. Housing, it is around the question of affordable This whole pattern of the continuum package for family housing and how we get at that. housing and care will change the neighbourhood and [1610] will change the outcomes. I go down there regularly, and Often those challenges around families can lead to I'm sure that the member opposite does too. some of those problems that the minister talked about I talk to people I know who have businesses down and that put individuals into those problems, depending there, and every time I get, when I go down there: "It's on how kids are raised and brought up there. I think that way better down here." I don't think it's because people there's a fair amount of challenge there. left the neighbourhood. I think it's because people in I do think that in regard to the Downtown Eastside the neighbourhood have a safe place to go. They can get and to the east side communities…. I think I have the some of the supports to actually control their lives better largest urban aboriginal population in raw numbers of and some of the medical supports to deal with mental any constituency in the province, because most of the illness. They have a much better quality of life, and that aboriginal housing is in my constituency. I know how changes the neighbourhoods. important that is for the people who are resident there I believe that this is a continuum, an integrated and for the community there, so I'm pretty keen about package. I passionately believe in the model we're that. trying to build with all the folks that we have as part- I think what I'm going to do, now that I see that Mr. ners — whether it be the Portland Hotel Society, Atira, Ramsay has joined us is…. This is an ideal time to move Lookout, Salvation Army or Union Gospel Mission, and talk about a couple of smaller items related to different partners that bring different things to the housing, and then we'll have a little…. I think there was table — and that we're going to be successful because talk about maybe a break in 15 minutes or so, and then we're all concentrating on the right thing. we'll come back and get to the bulk of housing discussion post-that. S. Simpson: I don't think anybody would disagree But moving on a little bit, the first question is around that the purchase of the SROs was a good idea, that the the Homeowner Protection Office. As I'm aware, the redevelopment of those SROs into what they're becom- government has ended the leaky-condo program, ing today was a positive and that it does provide a bit the loans program for leaky condos. That program of an anchor to ensure the protection of that particular was funded through the $750-per-unit fee on new form of housing stock in the community. It is a good construction. thing. Could the minister tell us: is that fee still being I know that there are some questions — we'll talk about collected? this a little bit later on — about, you know, the operating supports in the buildings. I know there are some chal- Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, it is. There's still a significant lenges around that, from some of the organizations that outstanding liability to loans with regards to what those have spoken to me — the buildings themselves. funds are supposed to pay for and the government is Part of the challenge there, of course — and setting aside carrying with regards to the portfolio of loans, because for a moment what's being developed at Woodward's government has put up way more than the $750 it — is the question about the development of new stock, brought in to date. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1739

S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us: what's the months or so as they go into their reconstruction and long-term plan as those loans start to get paid down? remediation. That piece will still have an effect on this. What's the long-term plan for this $750 fee on new It's still a moving target, for lack of a better description, construction? as to the loan amounts that we're going to. Now that we've extinguished this, we will come up with Hon. R. Coleman: That fee will continue, because a business plan for the future of that loan portfolio. Then there's still interest on outstanding loans to be repaid. we'll have another future for the Homeowner Protection When they are done, then the fee would be extinguished. Office. It will still exist for the reasons, basically, of the The process of the future design of this going forward licensing of the residential builder, which then allows is being done now, over the next number of months people to get insurance. It will still be involved with the into the spring, with regards to how the Homeowner building standards branch with regards to some policy Protection Office, which is now housed with B.C. development and that sort of thing. So that piece will Housing's responsibility, will look going forward. The remain. The loan program, as it extinguishes, will extin- loan piece will go through, obviously, a discussion with guish over time and then disappear. Finance and Treasury Board, but at this point in time, the intent today is that the $750 will continue until the S. Simpson: I appreciate that the minister will come liability of the interest on the loans is extinguished. up with a number in a bit about how much the value of that interest is that the government of British Columbia S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us: what is the is paying. It would be good to have that number and outstanding liability now, assuming there are no new some sense of if there's been some projection about how projects coming on board? That's ended, so what is the long it will take to pay that off so that the government outstanding liability that that money is being used to no longer has that obligation. Presumably, the $750 then offset? gets extinguished, or the largest portion of it gets extin- [1615] guished. If the minister could provide that information, it would be helpful. Hon. R. Coleman: There are still about 4,200 loans Just in relation to that, has the government done outstanding. Since the program's inception in 1998 any assessment, through B.C. Housing or elsewhere, of the Homeowner Protection Office has approved more people who would have taken advantage of this program than 16,000 reconstruction projects — 14,244-plus for when it was in place, who for any number of reasons….? strata owners, valued at $550 million; and 2,045 hous- Large numbers of people can afford to do those loans ing cooperative units, valued at $149 million — totalling themselves with private lenders and invest whatever the $700 million in reconstruction loans. The total loans still requirement is around a condominium when they put a outstanding today would be around $268 million. fee on or put a levy on in order to pay for improvements to leaky condos. Lots of people, obviously, can afford to S. Simpson: So as I can be clear, the moneys being do that themselves. used, because these are interest-free loans…. The pur- There is a group of people where that is a challenge. pose of the $750 is to pay the spread between the inter- Has the government looked at that question of people est charges that are being paid and the interest-free who are legitimately challenged by the ability to get those loan that's being taken up by the condominium owner. loans without the kind of support that this program It pays the spread between whatever the lender is put- provided? How is the government looking to support ting out and that. I believe that would be the amount of those people, other than, obviously, through…? There's money. So how much money is in that pot? That's what the program that is now defunct. I would believe is being paid by the $750, not the total [1620] loan piece. Hon. R. Coleman: We're not seeing that today. The Hon. R. Coleman: We'll see if we can find you the number of calls is basically less than ten a week that number in the discussion here. we're getting in regards to inquiries on leaky buildings. The $750 — the member is pretty much correct — The reason we made this decision, quite frankly, was pays for the administration of the loan program, and it that first of all, the program originally was set up for a pays for the difference of the interest-free loan. In some ten-year period. The rain screening has been in place cases there were other loans given out because people in British Columbia for about 12 years. That ten-year had other issues with banking or financial over the period.... The program was supposed to be about a $250 years. million program, with an estimate to handle, I think, There are still some projects in the stream that had about 7,000 to 8,000, maybe 9,000 units. been approved coming up to the end of August and that So the program is a $700 million program that handled will require additional financing through the next 12 16,000 units. What we saw in our applications piece 1740 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

coming in, particularly in the last year, were buildings clearly, because the demand has been much greater over that would not have qualified under the original man- the years than was originally anticipated. date of the Homeowner Protection Office and the reason [1625] that this was set up. I understand, and I'm recalling here. I don't have any So what we were finding is that we were getting documents in front of me. I am recalling that there was buildings…. Some of them were very old co-ops where some research done on behalf of B.C. Housing or the people were having some building envelope failures due HPO that showed that there probably was a relatively to lack of maintenance or deterioration of product, but significant number of buildings that may still be out- not because of what was the leaky-condo issue of the standing in terms of requiring the work that the office, late 1990s. It was always a belief that over a ten-year the program, was established for. But there was a fairly period you could move this thing to where you would significant amount still potentially outstanding. extinguish the loan program and move on. Has there been more recent or current assessments The other thing that happened over this same period done saying here's the number of buildings that we think of time was that when folks were dealing with this in might still be out there which still face the problems that 1998 through to about the mid-2000s, interest rates were the program was set up for and intended to address? substantially higher. The affordability of money was one of the biggest issues on being able to finance your way Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know if it's the report that out of this for those folks. I read that the member is referring to, but that was a Other forms of lending have changed, so for instance, percentage statistical analysis. It basically said that this somebody with 100 percent equity can now get a reverse many units were built, this percentage leaked, and this is mortgage if they're a senior, even if they're over the age the number of units — right? of 80. What we found was that the model had changed What I think it forgets is that we may have had out- and that this was no longer the effective way to do this standing loans on 16,000 units. I won't get into the because we didn't have the client that fit the envelope percentage of it, but that doesn't mean…. We might to justify continuing to give out loans on projects that have gone into a building of 50 units and done three really were not the fault of construction. loans — right? And the other 47 units may have decided You get a project that hasn't cleaned its gutters for ten to finance them themselves, so all of the units get fixed. years, a project that hasn't fixed its sidewalks or one hasn't That's the challenge with that type of report, and how taken care of the edge of their building with regards to far it goes back to decide when the problem was created. how they maintain it or whether they maintain decks. There is no question, if you've ever owned a home or They start to slip, and then they plug up, and they drain even rented, that if maintenance isn't done, down the back into the building. Those are not the reasons we had road over a number of years you're going to create a this particular program established in 1998. problem for yourself, and you're going to have to spend. The reason we had it was because we had a construc- It's just like maintaining a car — whatever the case may tion issue, probably largely around, as much as anything, be. overhangs and things like acrylic stucco and certain We felt very strongly, after looking at the applications types of materials that were used on buildings. Across — what was being approved and what should have been the industry, from the designer to the planner to the approved.... We looked at this thing and said: "You know, municipality to people wanting to have the California we're not getting the application anymore that fits the look and then the building code not adapting.... All description of what this loan program is." Whether those things affected a generation of housing. there's a statistical thing or not, the reality is that that is But the generation of housing didn't go back 25, what we weren't getting. 30 years, and that's what we were seeing — 25- and So you say: "Well, then we have to stop doing the loan 30-year-old projects that didn't fit the envelope. When program, and besides which it has gone more years than we looked at our applications and looked at what we it was intended to go, and it has done more than it was had, it was very clear that it was time to extinguish the intended to do." There always should be a period of time program. where you sunset something like this and say that we have done what we needed to do on this, so let's move S. Simpson: I certainly appreciate if there are people on. That's what we've done. coming and making applications to the program to get Are we taking a break? work done that was never intended to be done. That's a matter that has to be dealt with. I also think that what is S. Simpson: I just have one more question, and then clear, obviously, is that the original projection on how we'll take the break here. I'm up for the break here pretty widespread this problem was, was not accurate. The quick. problem ended up being much broader than officials I don't disagree with the minister's comments and the thought it was when they put the program in place, decision, but when the decision was made, obviously, Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1741

the other option choice would have been to say: "We're The Chair: Yes, I'm very happy to recess for a very going to be much firmer in where these loans are going brief break. in terms of being very clear about what the loans are for, and we're not going to lend you money to do things that The committee recessed from 4:32 p.m. to 4:45 p.m. are outside what we saw as the mandate or the criteria of this program. We're not going to start lending money [J. McIntyre in the chair.] because you didn't do maintenance on your building for ten years. You created a problem because of your lack Hon. R. Coleman: Before we move on, I just of maintenance, and we're not paying for that. We are thought I'd read into the record some of the issues in paying for problems that relate to what leaky condos are and around the interest, for the member's information. and are supposed to be." This is actually in the '09-10 interest subsidies in the The government chose to bring the program to a close, Homeowner Protection Office's business plan — some and fair enough. When that was done and the decision of it, anyway. was made to do that, setting aside the statistical report Interest to be paid to financial institutions is $1.722 that said 40 percent, or something, of units had not yet million. CMHC is $3.411 million. Financial institutions been addressed that needed to be addressed…. I'm not — the present value of the interest on those and then the sure what the number was. long-term liability, I guess is what you'd call it, on the [1630] financial institution side is $15.115 million; CMHC- Could the minister tell us: was there any risk assess- issued, $20.01 million; and CMHC-approved but not ment done, not in terms of risk for the government but issued, $18.858 million. risk assessment in terms of the numbers of units that might be projected or numbered out there that would S. Simpson: I wasn't writing those down. Can you tell still require work under what is the leaky-condo pro- me what the total for that was — the total that's out- gram that were not going to get addressed because the standing there? program was being wrapped up, knowing that this is what's still out there that we have to deal with? Was there Hon. R. Coleman: The loans held by financial insti- any of that work done, any assessment of that number? tutions, $15.115 million in 2009; housing cooperative repair loans issued, $20.01 million; housing cooperative [J. McIntyre in the chair.] repair loans approved but not issued, $18.858 million — for a total of $53.983 million. Hon. R. Coleman: We didn't do a huge statistical analysis, to be honest with the member opposite. We S. Simpson: I'm going to move on now to another had a program that was supposed to go ten years that aspect of housing: the residential assistance program, had gone 12, had gone from $250 million intentionally the rent assistance program. Could the minister tell us to $700 million. We knew that if a building was going what the total value, the total projected investment in to leak, it was going to leak within the first five to eight that program was and what the takeup has been this years of its life. year? When we put this in place in 1999, we changed the rain screening, so all new buildings were being built dif- Hon. R. Coleman: We spend about $40 million a year ferently. If somebody knew they had a leaking building on the program. Today we have about 7,740 low-income and ignored it — which, in some cases, people did, or working families on it. Since its inception we've had strata councils did — to their own extra cost because 10,400 different families on it at different times. Some they didn't want to have to go fix it when it was cheaper come in, and then they find other accommodation that to do…. We felt this is the time to extinguish it because doesn't require subsidy and that sort of thing over time. we have reached the level where the applications weren't Our projected numbers would be higher for next year by matching up. a thousand or two, depending on intake. There's been no fiscal benefit to government here. It was just to deal with this program and say: "That's the S. Simpson: I appreciate those numbers. They're end of it. We will take it to its end." not…. Maybe I wasn't clear with the minister about As a minister, I looked at it with the parties involved what I was looking for. When the program was estab- and said, "You know, this is the time for us to stop doing lished, there was an amount of money set. The program this particular piece of the Homeowner Protection was set and said: "Here's how many people we anticipate Office's business," and we stopped the program. That being able to support with this pot of money." was basically it. [1650] So, Madam Chair, we're going to take a recess, if you The takeup, I know, on the program has been less don't mind. than 100 percent. Could the minister tell us: what has 1742 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

the takeup been at the program in terms of the dollars jobs. The personal stories as a result of this program are that were set aside and the projections versus the people quite extraordinary. People say that their incomes go up who have actually taken advantage of the program? and then, therefore, they take less subsidy. Then eventually they move out, and they don't have any subsidy at all, Hon. R. Coleman: When we put the program together which was all the intent of the program. back three years ago…. It was actually put into inception I think the number that strikes out at me is that there in 2006. I think it was in action in the fall, so it's actually are 10,000-plus families that have actually received rent just about three years old. We weren't sure, but we used assistance in the last three years, which would mean that the StatsCan numbers, so we thought the uptake might about 2,000-plus have now moved back into the market be as high as 15,000 families. The program has actually as a result of being able to stabilize their lives and find helped 10,000 families over that period of time. other accommodation that they don't have to require When we started the program, our level of spending subsidy for anymore. was going to get to about $40 million a year, which is [1655] where it's at now. In addition to that, because we weren't getting the intakes we adjusted the program in years 2 S. Simpson: Can the minister tell us: with the number and 3. We adjusted the income thresholds up. of people who are on the program and with the funding If you recall…. Well, you may not, because you may that has been made available to the program, how much not have been aware of the program when it started. The room is available today for people to take advantage of income threshold was $21,000 a year. Then it was raised the program within the budget it has that has not been to $28,000 a year and subsequently to $35,000 a year. taken up? The program now will look at whether any of those statistical numbers — including percentage of income Hon. R. Coleman: We're comfortable with our and stuff and how rents are — on an annual basis as to present budget to handle the intake we're expecting to whether they need to be adjusted up and down in the have through the balance of this fiscal year, and then future. Those things change, basically, on about a six- we'll do our projections going into the next fiscal year. month average, so at least once a year we look at it and say what has to be adjusted up and down with regards to S. Simpson: I appreciate that, but it wasn't exactly maximizing the program. the question. The question was: how much capacity is left there, within the room in the budget available today, S. Simpson: The minister is saying that in the first that's not being taken up by people who are using the year the projection was about 15,000 families or people program? to be helped. That's what I heard. We're in the second, third year of this now. In this most recent year, was Hon. R. Coleman: In our budget and our service plan there a projection on the number of folks that would be this year we have the budget for 9,140 families. Now, helped? having said that, people come in and come out through the year. Some people come on, and some will move on, Hon. R. Coleman: The 15,000 was…. When the pro- so those numbers are pretty much in flux throughout gram was conceived, we felt that might be the maximum the year, but that's what we have within our budget to we might get to, all things being equal and if we had the handle it. intake. Because it had never been tried before, we just To say how much we have for how many people today used the Stats Canada number to start that. is virtually impossible, because I could get 500 people As we came into the program, we felt, looking at our on the program tomorrow that are above the average first year and our second year, that we would probably that we would spend for an individual family, which be at about 8,000 households by the end of the third year. would skew the numbers. We do our projections based That is about where we are now. on our growth and what have you, but we do have the In order to achieve that, we actually had to change the budget, in our minds, all things being equal, for 9,140 income threshold to make more people eligible because families on the program — if they apply, if they qualify. we weren't getting the uptake on the program that we So by the end of the fiscal year that's what we think we thought initially we were going to get. There are prob- could be at. ably a number of factors with regards to that, which are all relative to the marketplace that we don't have any S. Simpson: I appreciate that. I assume, then — and control over. So now we manage the program at around not wanting to project out to the future, we'll head to 7,000 to 8,000, and we feel we can grow it over time to a the past — enough budget for the year to support 9,140 bit higher than that. families, presumably, if they were supported for the We're also seeing people move off the program once whole year. The minister can correct me if that's a wrong they get stabilized with their rents and stuff and their assumption. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1743

I assume that this gets tracked on some monthly co-op program has evolved a number of times over the basis as to what the takeup on the program is. There's last number of years, and it's now a program that is some statistical basis on a monthly basis. Could the pretty close to a market housing program, with some minister tell us: of that budget that was able to afford folks being able to get some levels of subsidy. 9,140 families on a regular basis, what's the percentage The vast majority of units now in co-ops are at the or the takeup that we had as of last month, just to pick low end of market. They are not subsidized units for a month, or the month before, if it's a quarterly assess- all intents and purposes in the same fashion that they ment — whatever the assessment is that presumably B.C. would have been in the days of the old co-op programs, Housing or the ministry does? when I would have agreed with the minister that the As to the last assessment, how much, what percent- subsidies were significant. age, how many people, how many families were taking Part of the challenge that we have — and this is a advantage of this program at that time, knowing that challenge that's acknowledged, particularly in urban your capacity was 9,140? areas, but I'm sure it's a challenge in all areas — is around the issue of affordable rental for families. I probably get Hon. R. Coleman: The 9,140 is by the end of the year. more people who come into my office at Nanaimo and What you try and do with this is base it on historical Hastings in regard to this issue than in regard to the numbers for the previous year. Then, when you do this issue of homelessness. I certainly have my share of folks year's budget, you say: "We think we'll have this growth." who suffer from homelessness, or they couch surf, or So by the end of this fiscal year, if we get to a maximum they certainly don't have any stable shelter. number, it would be 9,140. You present that along with I get a large number of people who are families on your budget as you come through. modest or marginal incomes — and we certainly We do track it month to month. I don't have the provide them with information about this program — monthly trackings here. I'm told that given our present who come in saying: "First of all, I can't find appropriate monthly trackings, we think we'll reach that 9,140 people housing for my family in the city." They're city people, on the system by the end of March. and they want to stay in the city if it's at all possible, or in Burnaby or whatever. They can't find appropriate hous- S. Simpson: If it's possible, it would be good to get those ing for a young family, and when they do find it, they numbers, the tracking numbers for the last few months, can't afford it. to understand how that program is being accessed. We certainly let them know about this program, but [1700] many of them would fall within — maybe even some A related question to that program. I've had a number of them just outside — the $35,000. Not much, but just of groups, and I know that there are certain…. The outside or right on that border. Affordable rental for eligibility requirements for the program are such that families is a big challenge. the non-profit sector and the co-op sector housing are I appreciate that the government is not engaged in the not eligible housing for the purposes of this program. building of that housing at this point, and presumably, Could the minister tell us why that housing isn't this program is the primary strategy that the govern- eligible? Because we certainly know…. I've talked to ment has at the moment. We'll talk a little bit about the folks in the non-profit sector and the co-op sector, and task force that was announced, I believe, in the throne both would clearly be interested in being eligible housing speech. But this is the primary strategy that the govern- for the purposes of this program. Could the minister tell ment has to deal with that area — those folks who have us why they've been excluded? a challenge here. They're not finding those units. We know that the Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, co-ops are a form of private sector is not building those units now. The subsidized ownership in most cases, so that subsidy vast majority of construction, as I'm told by the Urban already exists. In social housing, people that live there Development Institute and others, is mostly condomin- pay 30 percent of their income. They are already subsid- iums. It's one or two bedrooms and a den. That kind of ized. We're subsidizing the mortgage, the maintenance, housing stock is what still continues to be built — not the operations, and frankly, we probably financed 100 necessarily appropriate for families. percent of the front end. So we have an ownership, long- [1705] term lease relationship on some and different forms of There is some available housing stock there in terms ownership on others. But the fact of the matter is that of the co-op sector — and the non-profit sector, poten- they're already subsidized, so we're not giving a second tially, but the co-op sector in particular — so that with subsidy to social housing. some support, they could afford to bring some people in and still make the payments work for people who are now S. Simpson: Just talking for a moment about the excluded from being able to be there because of the limits co-op sector, the minister will probably know that the on subsidy that they have, which is pretty limited today. 1744 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

The minister talked earlier about the need to look at ance program. In actual fact, we've reduced the list by the individuals and how the individuals get helped. If almost…. Well, not quite, but we've had a substantial people can't find that housing today, why would the drop in the active files and wait-lists on that registry minister not look, at least in some fashion, at making over the last three years. some available to the co-op sector to be able to fill some of those low-end market units that they're going S. Simpson: The minister said 9,000-and-something to get that price for anyways — they're going to have on the active list. Is there an inactive list, and what's the to, or they don't make their economics work for their difference in terms of how you get from one list to the mortgage — and make that available so that we can get other? some of those people, young families that need it, into housing? Hon. R. Coleman: There's only one. It's active applications. Hon. R. Coleman: Let me be clear. We're not doing [1710] co-ops. I mean, we're just not changing that policy. The co-ops are actually funded through a federally supported S. Simpson: The minister talked about 7,000, 7,200 — program. They have subsidies there. It's up to CMHC if whatever that number is — B.C. Housing units that are they want to increase those subsidies. We're not going held today. Of those, how many units are family units into the co-op side. versus other forms of housing? We have done, frankly, way more than our share for the co-ops in B.C. We have done $150 million in Hon. R. Coleman: It's pretty tough to break down, HPO loans on leaky co-ops across B.C., which have because it's only part of a major portfolio. Let me break cost us, today, $40 million. That's our outstanding this down for the member. interest liability on those. We did those without any In total in British Columbia there are about 80,000 support from CMHC, which actually holds co-ops in units of housing that receive subsidy in some form or Canada. another. Some of those are in the emergency shelter It is not our policy. It is not the intention of this and housing for homelessness, which includes the ministry to go into the co-op side of this business. people with supportive housing. That's about 8,370 We do rent assistance for families in the market. units. Somebody comes into your office and says they can't There's transitional supportive housing, which is 6,180 find…. They can go on the rental assistance program and people with special needs; 11,790 frail seniors; and 780 find a subsidy and find a home wherever they want in the spaces to service women and children fleeing violence. community that meets that criterion with their income. Then there are 41,330 other units that would basically The beauty of that is that they're integrated into the include 17,060 low-income family units, 3,660 aborig- community. Somebody is not saying: "Go live in this inal family and individual units and 20,610 low-income social housing project or that social housing project. seniors units. In addition to that, there are 24,980 units That's your only choice, because there's no other pro- that receive a form of rent assistance, which includes gram for you." both the SAFER, which is for seniors, and the rental Then we have the social housing structure and family assistance program. units and seniors in the thousands of units that we subsidize across B.C. We're not going to put a second S. Simpson: I believe that the minister said that B.C. subsidy into those. There's no interest from this end in Housing has about 7,000, 7,200 units — something to going back into anything to do with co-ops, because it that effect — which are under its jurisdiction directly, really isn't a piece of our core business and our housing which it directly manages. Those units that the minis- strategy. ter talked about are units managed by a whole array of organizations — and I appreciate that — including all S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us how many the units managed by the B.C. non-profits and others. people are on the B.C. Housing waiting list today. We're very thankful that those organizations and those community groups had the wherewithal to create those Hon. R. Coleman: Across the province today there units. are about 9,000 applicants on the active files list of the The question I have for the minister is: of the units housing registry. We have about 7,000 units for families that B.C. Housing has, the 7,000-plus units, how many in our portfolio, but that 9,000 also includes seniors and of those units are family housing? people who are looking for disabled housing as well, so it's a mix. Hon. R. Coleman: Let's be clear. The 7,800 units That is actually down by almost 7,000 from where that we're talking about are self-owned by B.C. Housing it was in 2006, when we brought in the rental assist- through the Provincial Rental Housing Corporation. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1745

In addition to that, there are another 28,000-plus units maintains a housing registry and provides a central- that are in the hands of non-profits. That could be a ized database of applicants for subsidized housing that Kinsmen family housing project in Aldergrove. It could member housing providers can access when units in be a Kiwanis project in Penticton, or whatever the case their developments become available. may be. We would be involved in that project, in some Applicants can submit a single application form to be cases, on a 60-year lease. considered for available units for all housing providers Where the society has a 60-year lease and an operat- belonging to the registry — which does not include, by ing agreement with us, we hold the title. We've paid for the way, all non-profit housing in B.C. the project, we subsidize it, and we subsidize the tenants However, there are 69 members that do belong to to 30 percent of their net income to what we call the the housing register at B.C. Housing. Over 20,000 units economic rent. are in the registry, about 7,800 of which would be B.C. I can explain that, if the member wants to understand Housing units. The other 12,137 units would be the other how each model works. There are about, I would be non-profits that participate in the registry.I t covers units guessing, ten to 15 to 20 different hybrid models of dif- in 29 municipalities across B.C. ferent forms of housing that have evolved in B.C. over the last 50 years, as to different forms of subsidy and S. Simpson: I often get people who come into my ownership and mortgages and what have you. office, and we are continually writing letters to B.C. To the member's question: we don't have that, but Housing out of my office — as other members are, I'm we're going to get it for you. We will e-mail over and see sure — making the case for individuals who come in if we can get the breakdown for you before the end of as to why they should be given consideration. Some of estimates. If not, we'll get it to you, because that package them are letters that we write because we're asked to has some seniors in it and some families in it. write them, and some of them are cases where we specif- ically asked for some special consideration because they S. Simpson: I do appreciate and would appreciate the have unique circumstances. specific numbers. Could the minister, maybe through We're told on a fairly regular basis that the wait-lists his officials, just give me a rough idea?I s it half the 7,800 are substantial. The periods of time that you're going to units? Is it three-quarters of the units? I understand wait are substantial. We continue, of course, to tell people that it won't be a specific number, but what percentage, who come in, who want to get into B.C. Housing because roughly, of that is family housing versus seniors or other they feel a security being in government housing…. forms of housing? That's where they want to be — in B.C. Housing. [1715] Some of them get in, and some of them don't. They have substantial wait-lists, we're told. So for the 7,800 units…. Hon. R. Coleman: This is an estimates debate, and we More importantly, for the family units that are directly would be guessing at around 40 percent, so it would be administered by B.C. Housing and part of their portfolio, unfair to make that a definitive answer. We'll get you the what is the average wait time to get a unit? definitive answer, but it's probably somewhere in there. It could be 35 percent; it could be 41 percent. But it'll Hon. R. Coleman: If we're going to get into a debate be in that range of percentage that we have, and then on the number of people on the waiting list, we might we have different ranges and mixes depending on the want to go back and look at the 1990s waiting list, which category of housing that we have. was even higher. But I can tell you that we've taken this down by about 7,000 people in the last three years S. Simpson: So 3,000 or 3,500 — whatever. I appre- alone. ciate that the minister will get a more direct, specific Now, when the member opposite…. You preambled answer for that. the question with some people with significant issues, The minister talked about the waiting list — the 9,000 etc., that you need to make aware because they come or so folks who are on the active list. I appreciate that through your constituency and you call B.C. Housing. it's quite likely that B.C. Housing would refer people Sometimes some of your members actually call the from that list to other alternatives if they were available minister's office and say, "We have an individual, — non-profits or things, possibly. But is it correct that specific case that's pretty important. We have someone that list pertains to the housing that's provided by B.C. that's disabled. They have a child that has autism. They Housing — the 7,800 units? That waiting list is related have this," etc., and they're on the list, or they've just to those units, and that's not to suggest for a minute that applied. there wouldn't be references of people to other options. [1720] There's a whole point-score system here. So let's Hon. R. Coleman: No, it's not exclusive for B.C. be clear about that. Somebody that goes on this list Housing's units. What happens is that B.C. Housing makes an application. If their only barrier to housing 1746 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

is affordability and they're making $2,000 a month, it Actually, that was one of the former critics, or questioners, would be, first of all, suggested that they might want to from the opposite side who told us that we shouldn't do look at the rent assistance program, but they will say any rental assistance program. they still want to stay on the list. That's what happens. We felt that if we really wanted to deliver housing People want to stay on the list because they're hoping affordability, we would go to a rental assistance program. that someday something will come up. They might wait I could pick almost any community in British Columbia a few years, but they're already getting rent assistance and tell the member that the equivalent of the one or somewhere else. two projects that would have cost millions of dollars From that standpoint, what happens is that the per- actually exists in that community today, in the market- son's wait time is actually based on their need. Even back place, because of rental assistance. Let's just pick one as when I used to tenant-up with some non-profits on some an example. of these projects way back when, there would be folks First of all, let's try and put into context why we made that would really want a unit, but you'd have somebody this shift. During the 1990s the former government that had a lower income. Basically, one of the things that managed to build about 500 to 600 units of housing a increased the points was if you were living…. year. Some of it was family. Some of it was seniors. That's I remember one person in particular who jumped up what their program was — to build about 500 units. in points because they lived in a trailer in someone's back That was after the matching program with the federal yard with three children. Sure they were a late applicant, government ran out in about 1993. So they made the and there were a whole bunch of people on the list, but decision that they would build 500 to 600 units. Let's when you point-scored them, you said: "Actually, this assume that over the next seven or eight years — let's person deserves housing." be generous — that they did 800 a year or even 1,000 a If you had an empirical wait time and you said, "X year over that period. No, let's say 800, because that's number of months or X number of years for everybody probably more like it — so six years, seven years, maybe on the list to be into housing," you would actually not 4,200 units. do what this housing is supposed to accomplish. What In the same period of time, wait-lists are growing, and this housing is supposed to accomplish is that it is sup- they're not coming down. The projects take about 18 to posed to be for those who need it the most, based on 24 months to build, and that's if you can get the zoning need. So some people will be on a list a lot longer than and be in the ground with the building permit. others just because they do not have the same level of [1725] need. The shift we made was that we thought we could do better with less money and a better performance. We S. Simpson: I've been here long enough to know that took two programs, because there are two. We have to I can ask this question a number of times, and I'm not remember that there's a second program, SAFER, which going to find out what that number on that wait-list is. has also been expanded in B.C. since 2005. That's Shelter So we'll accept that and move to the next part of the Aid for Elderly Renters, which is also a subsidy program question. for those folks in the marketplace. Could the minister tell us how many units of afford- But let's take the 8,000. First of all, we made the able family rental housing — not assisted housing, not decision we weren't building, and I'll get to why not SROs, not any of those categories that I know the gov- in a second. We're not going to build social housing ernment has talked about and invested in a lot…? Has for families. We're going to have a rent assistance pro- the government invested any supports for either sup- gram for families. Instead of maybe being able to build porting non-profits or, directly through B.C. Housing, 1,000 a year in three years, we have 8,000 families today to build family housing? getting assistance — 8,000 families in communities across B.C. Hon. R. Coleman: We're not building, today, family One project of 50 units would normally take about social housing in B.C. We made a fundamental shift, 18 to 24 months to build. In today's market for families when we brought in the rental assistance program, that it would probably cost between $300,000 and $400,000 we wouldn't do that. The reason we did is because we per unit. So let's go to the low side. That would be said that we'd subsidize people in the marketplace, so $300,000. We have a $15 million capital commitment 8,000 families actually get helped in the marketplace that would then also have a mortgage payment, main- today. tenance and costs and a subsidy on top of that to the Now, there's a fundamental philosophical difference persons who live there of 30 percent of their income. So with some members opposite. I don't know if this member they paid 30 percent of their income, and we would pay has the same one, but I did some debates over the last the difference. number of years with others who felt that government If you look at what we would call the economic rent should build, own and operate all rental housing in B.C. of that project — what does it cost every month to run a Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1747

unit? — it would probably be up around $2,000 a month. as mortgages went down and were paid down, while So you could say: "Let's spend $2,000 a month for 50 market costs for rents continued to go up. units. We'll build it and eventually get people in there." That's the reality of the market, and the minister In the meantime all those families are sitting somewhere certainly knows that. So in the long term you end up else in substandard housing and getting no help. owning an asset. You end up with secure housing. You Or you could say to yourself: "What if we could give end up housing people in ways that make sense, and $300 a month to each of six families?" Instead of 50 we that's what family housing does. would now do 300 families. They would be subsidized [1730] in the marketplace. They could pick the neighbour- The minister nods his head. Well, Minister,I 'll tell you hood. They could pick the unit, and they could move that I grew up in that housing, B.C. Housing. I know as their children and their family units changed. They what it did for me. I know what it did for thousands of wouldn't be tied into a certain type of housing where it people who found that safe, secure housing. I don't think says that if one of your children moves out and you've the minister should diminish the value of that housing got one left at home, now you've got to move down to a stock, even though he refuses to build any more of it. two-bedroom because that's the rule in social housing. The reality is that we do need to build that housing. Then when the last adult child leaves, you have to move Does that mean rent supplements don't make sense? out because you no longer can stay there — those sorts No, it doesn't mean that at all. Does it mean that we of things. need to maybe have targeted places for rent supple- We decided we wanted a more flexible model for fam- ments? Absolutely, there are. But when you start looking ilies. The reason we did that is because we felt that if we at demand and start looking at very low vacancy rates, could do that and start to show some success on that there are numbers of different strategies. There's a whole piece to bring down our waiting lists, which are down bunch of ways to approach this. by 6,000 or 7,000 families, we could then say to govern- What I'm afraid has happened is that the minister has ment: "Let's target our investment in bricks and mortar closed the door on probably one of the most critical ones, to the vulnerable part of our society that we can't house which is building affordable family rental. That's a gov- in the marketplace. Let's take care of the homeless, the ernment choice, and as he says, that's their choice. Our mentally ill and the addicted in supportive housing, choice would be different. We would build that hous- whether it be buying and improving SROs or building ing. That's something that people decide. That's up for new product." the voters and the electorate to decide what they think We chose to concentrate on that piece. That was the about that. fundamental shift that we made. We could have a dis- The question I have is leading to the existing stock. cussion about whether that shift is right or wrong in the We're not going to agree on this, so there's no need to other members' opinion, but that's how our strategy is spend a lot more time on it, from this point of view. Of going forward with the rental assistance versus building the existing stock that B.C. Housing has, a fair amount social housing for families. of that is older stock, quite a bit older — built in the '70s and the '80s. A lot of it was built at that time. S. Simpson: This is a place where we do have a fun- What is the assessment in terms of value? We know damental disagreement, because what the minister is that Little Mountain has been torn down. There are other essentially saying is that families on marginal incomes developments. There's Raymur, MacLean Park, Skeena are people at risk that this government doesn't pay atten- Terrace, and there are a number of other developments. tion to, and the rent subsidy program doesn't cut it there. Does the government have a plan for how it's going to It isn't achieving that objective would be my view. deal with that public housing stock, now that we've seen The problem we have with this is that, of course, we're how they've dealt with Little Mountain? not seeing that affordable housing built. The govern- ment talks about the cost of building affordable family Hon. R. Coleman: Well, first of all, before we go on, housing. The minister may know — or if he doesn't, you're wrong. You're flat-out wrong. The reason you're Mr. Ramsay may know — and I'd be interested to know flat-out wrong…. Actually, a member from Surrey whether further work has been done. is sitting to your left, and I'll give you an example in In 1997 Ekos research did work for B.C. Housing. At Surrey. that time they did a study, and the study looked at the Communities can actually figure out ways…. costs long term of supporting non-profit family housing, Vancouver is about to do this, frankly, with their back- putting it in place — the long-term costs and savings — alley initiative, with additional housing in Vancouver. versus rental assistance programs. They found that the A single two-bedroom basement suite was renting in savings were greater by building the stock and moving the Langley–Clayton Heights area just two years ago at people in. The reasons for that were largely around the $1,200 a month — 1,200 bucks a month. You know what fact that non-profit housing charge costs would go down Surrey did and what Langley did? They allowed coach 1748 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

houses and basement suites in that area of the community. You want to build it all. You want to own it all. I know Today the unit is $875. there's always this sort of sideline comment that comes You can't just say: "You've just got to build it because from your side of the House. You can maybe under- it's not out there." You'd better start thinking about the stand that I'm a little passionate about this, because I fact of densification and initiatives at local government actually believe this stuff. I've seen the lives and talked levels as well as how we tax, on a federal level, the rental to the people whose lives are changed, and they don't stock that we have. To encourage people to invest in need to live in a social housing project to have their lives rental stock, all of those things need to change. It's not changed. It's all about affordability. some panacea. If you give them the opportunity now today, rather The other thing that the member is wrong about is than waiting for years for something to be built, their this. I'm going to use two examples, real-life examples. lives will change. I am passionate about this, and I do They've told me I can use this publicly anytime I want, believe strongly that this is the right choice. and I've got tons of these. The first one is a letter from If you decided over three years to build 500 units a a lady who is a single mom. She writes me. Now you year for social housing, which was what you were build- could wait and spend $3 billion or $4 billion over ten ing in the 1990s, there would be 1,500 units still not years to try to build 8,000 units of housing for families, finished today. But there are 8,000 families every single or you could immediately make available the subsidy in month quietly getting a cheque anywhere in B.C. the market to help that family today. Just one quick example. I'll pick one community ran- By the way, on the study that the member referred to, domly off my sheet. Let's go to the middle of the sheet in 1996, I actually did some debates about that stuff. I — Burnaby. In the city of Burnaby today there are 618 can tell you what it didn't talk about. It didn't talk about families on rent assistance. That's ten projects of 60 units. the families that had to wait while their kids didn't get I don't know if you've tried to do rezoning or building in the same outcomes, whether it be for nutrition or the Burnaby recently, but if I had land today, it would take opportunities in the community because of affordabil- me, from the time of zoning to time of completion of ity. They were going to wait five or ten years for that construction, about three years. housing stock to come, and their kids would be grown One project is 60 units, but there are 618 families by then. today in Burnaby that receive a cheque every month This one mother has a 12-year-old son. She comes into to subsidize where they live. Even more importantly, the rent assistance program, and what does she write the nobody knows who they are. They're integrated into the minister? "Dear Minister, you have changed my life. You community. Not even their landlord knows who they have changed my son's life, because we can now afford are, so they maintain a level of self-respect that's phe- to rent a place in a neighbourhood that's great for where nomenal, because it works for people. the school is for my son. We don't have to sit on some I know the members opposite are opposed to that, but waiting list for the next four or five years. You've actually I can tell you that I've seen what it takes to do in housing. changed the opportunity for me to have a better out- I've seen the difference this makes, and I know this. come for my child." Because we made that choice, today there are 7,000 I told that story at a barbecue. A lady walks up to me people that were homeless in the last three years, who and says: "I've got six kids." Six children. She said: "I was have been connected to housing and supports through going to go live in our station wagon because I couldn't our outreach teams. And 80 percent of those are still afford to rent a place in this community." Six children, housed today because we went out and invested the hon. Member. She says: "But you came up with that rent money for the people that were hard to house so those assistance program. I heard about it on the radio. We're folks could come off our streets and get the support they housed today." need and the assistance with their mental health and [1735] addiction issues. She didn't have to wait three years, four years, 24 I know there's a discrepancy in philosophy, but I months or whatever it takes to build a unit, then sit honestly believe, hon. Member…. On this piece of this on some list and go through some process to decide file, I will say — and you'll say I'm wrong, which you've whether she could get into that particular project when already said — you're wrong. I guess we're just going to hundreds of other people are applying at the same time. have to agree to disagree. She could actually get a house. Today she's fully employed. Her income is up. She'll S. Simpson: We do have to disagree on this, and I tell you that the nutritional and educational outcomes appreciate that we have that disagreement. The minister of her kids are up, and she didn't have to sit on some kind of wants to have it both ways. On one hand he talks sideline and wait. about building carriage houses in Vancouver and then So we do have a philosophical difference here, and I talks about the private sector building those and then accept that. You want to build it. You want to own it. talks about the length of time it takes to build housing. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1749

Well, those will, hopefully, get built in Vancouver, but has in its stock, the 7,800 units, have been built — not all but they're going to take a long time to build too. a significant portion of them, particularly family housing — The other thing we know about what gets built…. You in the '70s and '80s. Skeena Terrace; Raymur — I guess it's talk to those folks who build strata. You talk to those Stamp's Place now; Maclean Park — these developments. folks. You talk to people who are building condomin- We know that the government made the decision, iums today. I don't have a problem with the changes in with Little Mountain, to demolish it and then to pack- the Strata Act to create rental housing, but that's not age up a combination of replacement units plus private rental housing for families. It isn't appropriate housing, development. Does the government have any plans in and it's not housing that meets their needs. We know relation to those other older developments? that we need to build a different kind of housing. The minister talks about those units. The reality is [H. Bloy in the chair.] this. I can give him at least as many letters from people saying: "I don't have an adequate place for me and my Hon. R. Coleman: I get that you want to leave 8,000 family to live. I'm looking for a place. I'm looking to get people sitting in substandard housing with no subsidy into B.C. Housing. I'm looking to get into a non-profit. because you don't care about them. You'd rather just I'm looking for that approach." build, own and cut ribbons. That's your choice. We Frankly, my preference would be that most of that chose to help people. That's our choice. go to non-profits. However, I understand that now it's Our legacy will be the families and children whose B.C. Housing's policy that when they're engaged in the lives have changed, like the two people I've referred to development of these developments, they don't turn already whose kids will come through a school system those projects over to non-profits anymore. They hold and a health care system in much better shape than they them now, and the non-profits essentially play the role did because somebody actually figured out a program of manager of those facilities. B.C. Housing is not even that could help more people without having to go out doing that. If you don't want the government to hold and cut ribbons every week. them, turn them over to non-profits. They do a good You know, just an email I got — this is something job. That's what they do. That's what they're good at, and that's pretty cool. that's where they should be supported. "I want to express my gratitude for the B.C. Housing rental [1740] assistance program. It was an extraordinary help during the The reality is this. The area that this government has most difficult time, when we were down in Vancouver with a low income. Last year our family earning had improved to the failed is around affordable family housing, and it's the point of the income allowed for the program. Therefore, we're not area in housing that this government has failed dismally. applying, because we don't need it. Thanks again, and continue That is my view. with the great work you are doing for families." You have 9,000 on this list. I would argue that we have The member went off on a rant.H e said that we didn't in this province, based on the minister's numbers, 11 do a very good job on a bunch of things there — you percent or 12 percent running under the low-income know, homelessness — and we weren't doing this and cut-off rate for poverty. We have poverty in this prov- all that stuff. So I should read into the record some sta- ince in the hundreds of thousands of people based on tistical information. the population of the province. First of all, let me tell the member that the highest If that's the case, you've got how many thousands and level of child poverty that ever existed in the province thousands still homeless. The government is doing work of British Columbia by percentage of population existed on that, absolutely, but there are still thousands and in the 1990s under the NDP. The budget for housing in thousands of homeless and tens of thousands of people 2001 in this province was $139 million when we took struggling, mostly families. government. Today it's $450 million, and that doesn't We have the highest levels of child poverty in the count the capital investment. country six years running. Those kids didn't get poor We shifted. We said we wanted to help people, so we by themselves. They are part of poor families, and those did something that no other government had done in families have fallen through the cracks because the gov- this province, and we actually started a trend across the ernment simply hasn't met its obligation to them. country. We started to put outreach workers out to con- We will disagree on this, and we will build that hous- nect with people who had mental health and addictions ing if we get the opportunity to do it in the future. That's and were homeless on the streets of British Columbia. when the minister can critique it, hopefully from the We have outreach teams in 41 communities today. opposition benches sometime in the future. But that has What's the outcome? It's 7,000 people who have been nothing to do with estimates. connected to housing and supports in the last three I will go back to the question that I'd asked. We kind of got years, and 80 percent of them are still housed in 49 com- off on this bit of a tangent here.I had asked the question in munities, including aboriginal outreach. regard to B.C. Housing. Most of the units that B.C. Housing [1745] 1750 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

We've already talked about the people on rental assistance invest additional renovation money in another building, and SAFER, but housing with supports in this province…. because that helps us offset some of our costs. In 2001 there were 1,300 units in total. Today, in 2009-10, Basically, the breakdown is this. We actually look at there are over 5,000 units of housing with supports and the housing stock in British Columbia in partnership another 1,000 under construction. with our non-profit partners. So 52 of the public hous- On the shelter side, there were only 750 approximate ing stock projects that are owned by the province of beds of emergency shelter in British Columbia. Today British Columbia…. We'll spend $140 million on those, there are over 1,500 plus — plus expanded capacity for and that will be upgrades, retrofits, carpeting — what- extreme weather and extremely extreme weather when ever it takes, depending on the individual project. it's very severe. On top of that, the shelters that existed I attended one that is actually under renovation when when we inherited them in 2001 were only open so many we did this announcement in Vancouver. I guess the area hours a day. We pay for 24-7, and 365 days a year, with would be called Kitsilano or Kerrisdale. To the credit of meals, in any shelter that is in our permanent housing the mayor, way back when, in Vancouver…. I think it shelter and that wants it. was Art Phillips at that time who made the decision on In his rant there he basically said that we'd let people some city-owned land that they would develop a project down on that particular file, but I'll tell you what, for affordable housing for seniors that was put in the Member. I think that the people who are out there middle of what would be called a very expensive neigh- working their cans off in communities across B.C. have bourhood. He felt that there were affordability issues in done a phenomenal job for people in British Columbia. every area of the city, so he actually made the choice to They're going to continue to be supported by this gov- have that project built. Today, 30-some years later, it's ernment, in spite of the criticism that you want to give getting an entire facelift. those good folks. So we will spend $140 million on 52 housing projects, Now, the member asked about our older stock. Our another $24 million on 29 non-profit units, and we'll oldest social housing project in British Columbia is spend $13 million on a number of SROs that we're allowed Little Mountain. We've decided it needs, in its location, to match up with. to be redeveloped to replace the exact same number of [1750] units that are in it, plus gain a value out of it so that we So to the member's question, we are investing in the can invest that capital in another 1,200 to 1,500 units renovation and in the upgrade. We are investing in hous- of housing in Vancouver and other units across British ing for people who need it through supportive housing, Columbia for people who need it that are homeless with and we have some other investments taking place that mental health addictions, and those types of folks who I'd be glad to discuss with the member. need supportive housing. On October 14, I know that the member actually S. Simpson: The minister talks about me having a criticized this announcement. Reading his comments rant. The minister would understand what rants are all in the media…. The member was saying, "Well, that's about. He absolutely would. just renovations. Why would they do renovations? They The questionI have for the minister is: does that mean should be building," and he just asked me a question that the decision on how the government proceeded about what we're going to do about our older stock. with Little Mountain….? It does not have intentions to We've got some old stock out there that only needs proceed with any of the other projects — current older- to be upgraded over time. It doesn't need to be redevel- stock projects — that are around but rather to use these oped. It actually is in pretty decent shape, but we have dollars for upgrades or improvements or renovations. to put on new roofs or some new windows for energy I understand there could be some change. But those — whatever the case may be. developments will remain essentially as they are? So we got offered an opportunity to match up money with the federal government. On October 14, 2009, the Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, for the member, I'm housing renovation partnership funds for 101 renovations just going to give you an update on some numbers from and retrofit projects over the next two years, totalling $177 earlier, because we have them now. The direct manage- million, will be cost-shared with the federal government. ment portfolio of 7,800 units — 45 percent of them are We're paying half; they're paying half. family, and 55 percent are seniors. So 3,500 units would We're putting the renovation money in, and the majority of be family, and 4,300 would be seniors and special needs. the funding is going toward repairs in 81 social housing Within B.C. Housing we have what we call a compre- projects. So let me say that — 81 social housing projects. hensive asset management strategy. Basically, we have a Plus, they're allowing us to allocate renovations that number of strategies. To be fair, today there's one project were underway in a provincially owned single-room- being redeveloped. In the past there have been others, occupancy hotel for an additional $13 million. What but the only one that's in any phase of redevelopment that does, by the way, is allow us to find another ROS or today is Little Mountain. Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1751

None of the other projects are in a phase for redevel- I understand that. The question is: are there any plans opment in any comprehensive way. They get assessed. for any other developments, to do a full redevelopment We look at their age and stuff over the years and see what of the scope of Little Mountain? the opportunities are in any of the individual commun- ities. A lot of our stock is in communities where density Hon. R. Coleman: I think that it's safe to say that no value wouldn't be there to redevelop and those sorts of matter what, Little Mountain is probably the biggest, things. They could be in smaller communities across because of the size of the land. In the middle of a major B.C. — that sort of thing. city you have 16 acres. The money being spent on the 140 projects for the For instance, we have one that is underway right now renovation side. That's because we've determined that at 950 Humboldt in Victoria. It was well under 20 units those projects renovated have an additional life span of housing — pretty old. Today there are 43 new units of of whatever many years. We plan that based on the age housing being built on this site. That was the opportun- of the building and the return on time and that sort of ity. Because the product was pretty old and decrepit, the thing. decision was made that that one should be changed to Those projects are getting renovated because they're add more units on that particular site. staying in their present form. That doesn't mean the There's nothing in front of me today that says this possibility doesn't exist on the same sites. In some cases particular site is up for redevelopment. So that's what we have sites where we can actually rehabilitate some I can base the answer on. We have an asset manage- buildings, but we might have an extra-large parking lot ment strategy, of course. I continually challenge B.C. or too much open space where we might be able, in the Housing and any agency of government to look at what future, to put in a building that might be a four-storey or their business is — if there's an opportunity there. I something for seniors or whatever the case may be. don't know of one off the top of my head, of all the We are always mindful of that. If we can in the future properties I look at, that I'd say is one that we should or if the opportunity exists to be able to densify some- go and redevelop the whole site today — and I know a thing — to do that or do a comprehensive development lot of our properties. like we're doing at Little Mountain…. We have to keep Actually, in small communities across B.C. there are all of that in mind because we're managing a pretty some pretty neat opportunities on some things we're extensive portfolio of housing. doing with seniors housing today. We have some soci- We also, quite frankly, do other investments with eties that have excess land that we're able to add eight regards to that. For instance, we've recently made a or ten or 12 units to for seniors rental housing in some $600,000 investment with Dominion Command of the communities, for people to age in place and that sort Royal Canadian Legion. The reason for that is to give of thing. them some predevelopment money so they can look at We work on all that all the time, but there is no major some of their sites that they have across B.C. project in front of me, other than Little Mountain, that They have a number of really old social housing sites is presently up for discussion. with a very low density, but they also have some properties that they think may be able to be redeveloped, or a piece S. Simpson: I've had a number of people — it's of them may be able to have housing added to them in the anecdotal, largely — tell me about vacant units in B.C. future. They're doing that work, and they could come back Housing developments. I have no idea of the scope of for partnerships with regards to seniors housing or other that. forms of housing in the future. My question would be this. How many of the 7,800 We knew we wanted to rehabilitate some stock. This units that B.C. Housing directly administers, in the list allows us to accelerate that because we're working with that was given — even not if it's specific but a rough 50-cent dollars versus 100-cent dollars. That makes it term — have been vacant for more than three months? easier in our capital plan. Hon. R. Coleman: Normal turnover is about 2 to 3 S. Simpson: I understand that you may make changes percent. We run at a very high occupancy level. That's around existing buildings where you find some space, actually above the market average. The turnover of units where you can do some infill — those kinds of things. is that a unit becomes vacant, and you usually have to Is it clear that at this point the government has no plans do something to it — paint it or whatever — and then or intentions to do a redevelopment of the scale of Little turn it over. Mountain on any other projects, where it levels the project We do have some units that some people look at and does a complete rebuild rather than building some and say: "That unit has been vacant for a month. Why infill into existing developments when renovations are haven't they tenanted it after they fixed it up?" That's going on? actually a fair question, but usually what that is that we [1755] have someone of very high need that can't actually make 1752 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

their move for a three- or four-week period, but because marketplace and you could achieve about a 2 percent we know they're in such extreme high need, we hold the turnover, you'd be pretty happy with that on the busi- unit for them so that they'll have a place to move into. ness side. We're trying to deal with the high-need side. In some of our newer — and I'm talking late 1980s, S. Simpson: Is the minister telling us, so we can be early 1990s — housing stock that was done for non- clear on the number, that at any given time there are 150 profits for family housing, which was done under both to 200 vacancies — something in that range — among the former Socred government and some under the the 7,800 units? There are just 150 to 200 vacant units; former NDP government, we do run into some chal- that's 2 percent to 3 percent of that stock. Would that be lenges. The challenges are that in that era we built a it, or is the number different? form of housing — for instance, townhouses with two and three and four bedrooms. Hon. R. Coleman: That's the turnover. This month [1800] four people in this project and five people in this project, The rule in that housing is that you have to have and there are 7,800 units in total. Some moved out last a child that matches up to the number of bedrooms, month, and the painting has to be done. That's just the unless they're under a certain age. So you could have normal churn. They're not vacant. They actually have a two-bedroom with a single mom with one child and tenants waiting for them. It's just that they're getting a three-bedroom with two children under the age of ready for the next tenant. six and another child over the age of six; and you could A person moves out at the end of the month, and have a four-bedroom with three children, or whatever oftentimes there are a few days of vacancy. Sometimes the case may be. there needs to be a lot more work, depending on how The family mix, and this is one of the reasons…. A they're leaving the suite and what shape they're leaving danger of just building and owning and operating but it in when they move. not being flexible in the marketplace is that the family The other challenge we face in that turnover side…. units actually changed over the last 15 to 20 years. We I'll give the member one example. Back in the '50s, '60s have less and less people who would match up to, let's and '70s some of the seniors projects were built as small say, the four-bedroom unit. as 250-square-foot studio units. Today we're actually Oftentimes where they're located…. Somebody will moving some of those around and looking at them more say, "I've got somebody in Burnaby that wants one," for uses like mental health, addictions and homelessness, and we'll say that we actually have a four-bedroom because the senior that could go into them can't actually in Aldergrove. They'll say, "Well, I don't want to go to function in a 250-square-foot unit unless we do differ- Aldergrove," and yet you could have a four-bedroom ent adaptations to them. unit. So sometimes it's because we're adapting units, but it Those tend to be allowed to be, for a period of time, really is that there's a normal churn. When I was in the vacant to see if you can find the family mix.A t that point rental business, if I had a 2 percent turnover in a month in time, the society will say to B.C. Housing: "Because with both my clients and the units that I actually owned we're subsidizing the unit, can we underhouse some- at the time back then, I would have been ecstatic, to be body in this place — in other words, give them a four honest with you. The turnover was usually somewhere bedroom with two children because there's no family closer to 10 percent. that meets the family mix?" The other ones that are a challenge are….I n the same S. Simpson: Well, I still don't have the answer to era, there were some units that were built for disabled the question, but I'm not going to ask it again because housing. We've changed that now, but there was a period there's way too much information that comes back that of time where we had to change some of the approaches. I haven't asked for. What happened…. There was actually some wheelchair- At this point what I'd like to do is…. I believe that accessible disabled housing built with three bedrooms. my colleague the member for Vancouver–West End has Of course, the person in the wheelchair with three some questions around residential tenancy. children was not a normal family mix that we were find- ing, so we're having difficulty filling those. So today we S. Herbert: The first question I have…. This isn't allow those to go with an individual in a wheelchair exactly on residential tenancy, but it's related. that's disabled, because that's what they're designed for, [1805] with a care worker — especially if they're a ventilated A number of seniors in my constituency have asked about quadriplegic or a severe quad that can only do certain the SAFER program and their challenges with it. They've things. So now we've adapted their use, so we changed been lifelong members of people who live in the west end that particular approach to it. of Vancouver, and they're finding that, with how rents are But if you had a rental portfolio today in the private climbing so drastically, they're having challenges being able Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1753

to stay in their homes because SAFER is not increasing at would want to ensure that long-term residents can stay the same rate as the rent increases that they face. in their homes, and that would be my hope. Would that So my question to the minister: is there any thought be fair to say? about looking at more specific geographic areas that SAFER could be adjusted on, based on cost of living in Hon. R. Coleman: Partly, it's fair to say. The part more localized settings? about picking one person over another because of how long they lived there would probably lead us to all kinds Hon. R. Coleman: Thanks, hon. Member, for your of discriminatory discussions. comments with regards to SAFER. I'll just give you a bit [1810] of a background from our perspective. Our challenge would be twofold, so I can't guarantee The Shelter Aid for Elderly Renters, which is the the member whether we could do something different SAFER program, was expanded in 2005 with a $16.6 mil- or not or whether it would make any sense for us. The lion annual funding increase. That was the first increase more areas you have to have information on, the more in the program since 1990. So there was a 15-year period areas you have to administer. The more areas you have where there were no changes. We're the ones that have to define people within, the more your costs go up. Then been adjusting the rent ceilings. my concern is that we'd be spending too much adminis- We basically try and do it on an annual basis. We do an tration costs for a program that we just wanted to deliver average assessment across particular areas. SAFER rent the cheques to every month to get people the help they ceilings have been increased in the Metro Vancouver need. area a couple of times, including the establishment of I do think that it all depends on room within our own separate rent ceilings for Metro Vancouver, and to reflect program and whether we could get that finite. It's not a the local market conditions. Going into this fiscal year bad suggestion that we shouldn't look at, so we'll prob- we'll do another assessment of Metro Vancouver and the ably have a look at it. rent ceilings. We can look into it, whether we could isolate it fur- S. Herbert: When the minister and his staff get a ther, because we actually have to rely on statistics from chance to look at that, if he's able to share it with me in somebody else usually. We're probably using statistics the next couple months, I'd really appreciate it. I know that are compiled by someone like CMHC in regional that my constituents would as well. I look forward to areas that they will actually do rent statistical informa- reading that. tion and studies on. That's what we probably rely on. I Back in February, I believe it was, the minister and don't know whether we could get it down to finite…. I got a chance to sit down together and talk about the For instance, in the West End or something like that. Residential Tenancy Act. At the time and continuing, The next question would be: "Well, why can't you do there are still big concerns in my constituency and also, Yaletown the same as the West End?" And then: "Why I know, in Victoria. I've also heard stories from up in don't you do Kitsilano the same as these guys?" Comox, Kamloops — a range of places across B.C. — on We try and be fair, but we have been fairly good issues of what have been termed "renovictions," or evic- about adjusting and reviewing the rent ceilings since we tions by renovation. topped up the program and almost doubled this funding At the time I took a note down, based on our meet- back in 2005. ing, and the minister had said to me that he would look into if there was a way to tighten up the clause around S. Herbert: Thank you to the minister for that ques- evictions in the Residential Tenancy Act, to stop people tion. I guess I appreciate that the minister said that he evicting for false renovations and to look at how they would look into if it's possible to do more localized. I would do that. I'm wondering where the ministry is at know CMHC will do what is the average rent for an with that. apartment in the West End. We've seen that data before, so it does exist. Hon. R. Coleman: We did look at this and came to I asked because I think of a constituent who has lived a couple of conclusions. First of all, the actual law is in the neighbourhood her whole life and is finding it probably sufficient for the issue. The challenge that we increasingly difficult to stay there. SAFER she appre- found as we looked at it is that we have people that really ciates, but it's not enough, as the rents have increased need some more…. We felt that we needed to do more so much higher there in comparison to another area in public education on what people's rights were in and Metro Vancouver where they may not have increased as around this issue. much. It was surprising how many people had no idea that Would it be fair to say that the minister will look into they could actually appeal that type of rent increase or seeing if it's possible to do more localized variations in that type of an eviction based on that, so we've done SAFER for long-term residents? I understand that you more public education. We added two more outreach 1754 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

offices — one at the MarbleA rch on Richards Street and go through arbitrations and stuff. Too bad. That's what the other one in the Downtown Eastside in Vancouver — the law is there for. It's there to have a balance in a subsequent to those discussions. relationship that is between a landlord and a tenant in a The member is right. The challenge is: what is an business relationship. For the most part, it works pretty eviction for renovation? It could be legitimate in an well. older building, where somebody says: "I have to do an But then, as the member knows…. We both know of a upgrade sufficient thatI can't let you live here." It could company — we won't say the company — that has given be tearing out entire kitchens and bathrooms and put- us some challenges, not just in his riding but in other ting in sprinkler systems and all that stuff. Oftentimes ridings. Slowly but surely we'll change behaviour. when a renovation gets triggered on a major renovation, local government puts up a whole bunch of additional The Chair: Member, and if I could remind all mem- new challenges against those. bers: the questions should be directed towards the I actually ran into that with a building I renovated budget estimates for 2009-10. Legislation or future legis- years ago, when somebody decided that after the build- lation isn't included in the discussion. ing was good enough for 30 years that it should get a sprinkler system, which added a cost of about — I think S. Herbert: Thank you, hon. Chair, for that it was, in those days — $6,000 a unit or something like reminder. that. Of course, as we started to do that, we found out And thank you to the minister. The minister will know that that meant we had to change all kinds of different that I don't agree that the law is sufficient. I've got some walls and things. It became a much bigger renovation at challenges with the law as it stands today, and I know the time. that Ontario is an example where they put in the right [1815] of first refusal. I think that we're trying to do the education piece, There are some challenges there, and I have certainly added to the fact that we've sort of streamlined our talked to people in the development industry and processes for people to make those complaints. Our people in the Apartment Owners Association who have call levels are way down in minutes and time as far as some challenges with that law, but I think there might people being able to access us over the phone — dra- be a way that things could be tweaked to ensure that we matically over the last year. And we added the outreach can actually keep more people in their homes and stop offices. them from having to go through these really troubling The challenge is that there's actually a whole bunch of times. very good landlords and tenants and very good relation- Many times, the minister will know, in some cases ships across B.C. There's about a half a million tenancies when these renovictions happen, people will just give in B.C. Virtually, out of those half a million, if you took up. They may not know the law, or even if they do the number of complaints we get, there's a whole bunch know the law, they're not able to spend the amount of people actually in a pretty good relationship with of time required to stand up for themselves and fight whatever kind of landlord they have. for themselves. So they do give up or maybe, in some Then you get a piece where you get some of these guys cases…. that, frankly, just operate wrong, and those are the folks I know of a couple of elderly folks in my constituency we try and watch and track. We get a complaint about who just don't have the ability to go through the process, them. We try and make sure our folks are aware of it, and so they end up out of the constituency a lot of the because it doesn't take very long. time and out of their neighbourhood. The member could probably write down on a piece of My question is, and this relates to the budget…. paper two or three owners of buildings in his area of the The minister mentioned that there was more public edu- province, in Vancouver, and I could write down two or cation being provided for people to understand their three names on a piece of paper. We could switch pieces rights in the law. Can the minister explain where that of paper, and we'd probably have the same names on the funding is coming from and how that is being played pieces of paper. out across the province? We're very aware of those folks. I have actually had one-on-ones with some of them and said: "You know, Hon. R. Coleman: In addition to the offices that I'm disappointed in how you actually do your business we opened that the member is aware of, we have now with regards to these renovations." If it's legitimate, funded positions within the residential tenancy branch nobody is going to argue about it. But if it's not legitimate, for public education and outreach. What they do is they I'm sorry. work with two sets of groups. There are two landlord You get no sympathy from me, or anybody else groups: the B.C. Apartment Owners Association, and shouldn't give them sympathy, if they have to go there's one on Vancouver Island as well. through the process and they feel like they're having to [1820] Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1755

There's also the Tenants Right Action — it used to I remember doing a debate in this House in '96 or '97 be called a coalition, and I think that it has a different with the member for Port Coquitlam now, who was a acronym now — to deliver those programs and education minister at the time, and saying to him: "You know, we stuff to tenants. Those are the advocacy groups. have some things that we don't have under our control We've also added…. If you run into one of these situa- in B.C., and we're actually headed to a rental crisis in tions with a senior, there are advocates at both those our province." organizations that you can contact. You could contact It wasn't that I was Nostradamus, or anything like our branch, too, with regards to some advocacy people that. It was just obvious that the last time we really had for people like seniors who might be intimidated by the a large increase in the building of rental housing in our process. We'd be pleased to give you direction to find jurisdiction was when the MURBs existed in the late that. 1980s to incent people to invest in that. Today the struc- ture of the taxation, the recoup on capital gains, actually S. Herbert: Thank you to the minister for that. pushes people in older buildings to say: "I'd rather tear The question is…. Back in February we also talked it down and redevelop it into condos than actually keep about the geographic-area increase clause, and the min- the product in the marketplace, because that's the only ister said he would look into that clause, as a number of way I can get out of certain tax implications." my constituents are facing that challenge or have faced I think it's important. I know that the member that challenge, I understand. Are there any resources probably has mentioned it to any MP he's seen. I'd being used in this budget to look at closing up that just encourage him to do the same, to continue to loophole which has allowed people to apply for rent do that. I keep doing it. I'm meeting with the federal increases up to 73 percent? minister on Friday, and that will be on the table again like a broken record until such time as we get some Hon. R. Coleman: What we found with this when assistance. we went and looked at it after our meeting is that the [1825] geographic location thing…. We were finding that the If we're actually going to achieve affordability in applications were coming in for a rent increase, but they rental in B.C., over time we need to incent the market, weren't very often being actually given, so what often whether it was what I discussed with the member earlier, happened was that sometimes they're awarded a per- by adding coach houses or basement suites or densifying centage and sometimes they're awarded zero. neighbourhoods. In some cases, when they are offered a percentage, they But the other piece is really going to come down to were also put into a phase-in for their tenants. Although, the day we can actually incent the marketplace to start the story usually is that somebody asked for 73 percent, building purpose-built rental housing again. It's all we went and looked at the outcomes on the other end supply and demand — right? So if you don't build any and found that the system is actually moderating that more supply, the demand pressures continue, and we piece of the business. So they have to be pretty good at end up with the type of things we've discussed. convincing the branch that they actually are entitled to it, and oftentimes they're not successful with the level S. Simpson: Just a couple of asks of the minister, since they think they should be. we're going to try to wrap up this vote in the next 15 minutes or so. S. Herbert: I guess from that answer, I'm understand- I have a list, which we're obviously not going to get ing that there's no further work being done, looking at through today, of 31 — I believe it is — developments in the geographic-area increase. In the 73 percent increase the partnership, the municipal-provincial partnership, example that I mentioned, I believe the final number around housing and different municipalities around the that was come to was a 41 percent rent increase, which, province. I'll provide a the list of written questions and for the residents there, is just untenable. ask whether I could get some information on the status Anyways, the minister and I can continue to have this of those developments in terms of where they are in their debate about the geographic-area increase clause off line status — ask the minister whether he could provide that from this. I thank the minister and the Chair for this if I provide the written request? opportunity to ask questions on the Residential Tenancy Act on behalf of my constituents. Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, that's no problem. But I'll just caution the member that there are projects being Hon. R. Coleman: I remember that when we had this built now — projects subject to capital, projects sub- discussion, I encouraged the member, every time they ject to revenues coming out of something like Little saw a federal MP, to mention to them that we could use Mountain, because that's where capital is coming for some incentives on the tax side with regards to residen- a bunch of other projects — and we have to basically tial tenancy in the future. negotiate each year with the finance side of things. 1756 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009

There are projects in different stages of development, It's not because of other things. Or it's less serious than so we'll try and get you a summary that would encapsu- the penalties actually warrant. late that for you. In some cases, it could be something [1830] that we've given predevelopment money to that we think But the member is right. We do know of a couple of is really needed in two years, and they're wanting to go cases where some advocates are working on behalf of now. But the capital priority might be a project, let's say, some folks that are coming to us. We think that's what in Vancouver, that's ready to go because we have a higher will probably happen on the operational side of this in need, or something like that. the future, because the advocate will be able to help the That's the only caution thatI 'll give you. But if you give uninformed to basically build the package they have to us the documentation, we'll be happy to provide that. bring to us to have the right evidence to be able to pro- ceed, and we'll monitor that. S. Simpson: Thanks to the minister. Yeah, I'm just You know, it was an interesting thing. The actual looking for — there are 31 projects — some status report change was asked for by both sides. We made the change about where they are, from idea to unlocking the door to do the administrative penalties because they felt that for people. the procedure to the courts was too onerous for people, I have one question related to residential tenancy, and and therefore, they weren't using that. it relates to a challenge. I have had discussions — and We actually tried to get a more streamlined process, I'm sure that the minister has met with Al Kemp, as well, and today we haven't had one proceed. But if we get and some of the people, the landlords and that — and we a little bit of uptake on it with a couple — or the one were talking about exactly the issue that the minister was or two that may be out there that could be coming to talking to the member for Vancouver–West End about, us — we think that with the proper backup of an advo- which is that we know that 97 percent of landlords do a cacy group and if we get one success, that'll change the pretty decent job. There are a small amount of bad actors, approach to this. and the minister and I have discussed those previously. The questionI have is…. When we talked about those S. Simpson: I think that, you know, the minister is with Mr. Kemp, we talked about the changes to the correct. I think that it was a change that the propon- Residential Tenancy Act and about the administrative ents for landlords and the proponents for tenants both penalties and the inclusion of those as a tool to be able agreed has potential to keep things out of the courts to get at some of this. The concern he raised, which was and still put some penalties in place. I would agree very insightful to me, is that he said he doesn't believe…. that what we need to do is actually have one move for- While it's a good idea, the challenge is finding tenants ward that is legitimate and deserves to have a penalty who are prepared to make the charge in numbers that, put to it and see whether that wakes up some of those in fact, allow an investigation to go forward. few people who are on that list of three or four that we These are people, especially with some of those land- could exchange. lords, who are rightly concerned that they're going to get Coming back to a question that relates to part of evicted; they're going to be out. They just, for a whole the government's fight against homelessness here…. It variety of reasons, feel an intimidation to move forward relates to the 23 SROs that the government has pur- and make that charge. chased and is now opening in mostly the Downtown I'm wondering whether the minister has seen some Eastside, but opening generally in communities. of that with that small group. I think one of the things One of the issues that has been brought to me, which Mr. Kemp talked about is…. He talked about knowing, have been talked about, are challenges related to issues in some apartment buildings, the old "time to change like how tenant selection, particularly in the hard-to- the doors." In the middle of winter you pop the front house buildings, occurs. Could the minister tell me: and back door off the apartment building for a couple what is the plan here? Is tenant selection a process that of days to let your tenants know that they shouldn't get the non-profit who's contracted to manage the building…? out of hand. He said that he knows people who do that, Do they have control over the tenant selection process? and they're bad actors, and he doesn't like them because Or is it a B.C. Housing process? they're not good for his industry. But how do we deal Some of these, as the minister will well know, are very with that question? complex in terms of the people — the population that's Has the minister thought about how we make sure being dealt with. I get told stories like: "We get people that we're not facing a situation where we can't get the in there. We know that some of them are hoarders, and tenants to make the assertions because they feel scared every six months we want to move them to another unit or intimidated that they're going to lose their housing? so that we can go in and clean out the unit, because that's what happens." "We sometimes have people who Hon. R. Coleman: We haven't actually had an application get together in side-by-side units, and we want to be proceed yet, and usually it's because of a lack of evidence. able to maybe separate them at some point, because it's Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1757

not good for them to be living beside each other because to the minister. How are those negotiations occurring, of their particular behaviours." and how are decisions being made about resolving the There are a lot of these challenges that they know well, questions about the level of budgets that the organiza- because they manage these buildings in that commun- tions are requesting and what the ministry is prepared ity. So what is the status around how tenant selection to provide? works and around the scope of management authority I understand that sometimes there's some discrepancy that those groups will have? in those and that the spread is fairly big — 50 percent in some cases. Maybe the minister could just com- Hon. R. Coleman: The member has described a signifi- ment about how we deal with those matters in terms of cant challenge that we have with this form of supportive making sure that what the ministry wants to accomplish housing where we need to actually be flexible for people's gets accomplished, because the resources are there. needs over time with regards to all the buildings that we have. Hon. R. Coleman: What we provide is two staff 24 Basically, what we have is…. We set up the supportive hours a day, seven days a week, plus support services to housing registration service. It was created by a collab- the buildings. Some societies chose not to participate, oration with B.C. Housing, our non-profit housing pro- for whatever reason. They may have a higher volun- viders, the city of Vancouver, Vancouver Coastal Health teer component, or they wanted something different. and the Minister of Housing and Social Development. That's something we allow them to decide on — only to That service manages the allocation of supportive a point, mind you. If the services to our clients aren't housing units in the acquired SROs in cooperation with being met and we have funding on the table, we would the non-profit operators and other supportive housing expect that they would use them. So we do have that sites that are also owned by other groups, like the city of relationship. Vancouver and what have you, that work with us through I should say, having said that, that we've got some the provincial housing programs, such as the provincial unbelievable organizations down there doing some homeless initiative — PHI — and the local governing unbelievable work. You know, this whole shift that initiative. I will, before I conclude this, say a few things took place starting in 2006 was new to everybody — to about that intervention project at the end of this. actually go in and say, "We'll take this piece of awful [1835] housing. We'll buy it. We'll renovate it. We're not just Basically, they actually have the benefit, from both going to put people in it to house them. We're actually the outreach worker and the applicant and the assertive going to put some security on the door and 24-hour teams, to be able to have one place that they can go and staff, two people a day, and start adding some support apply once for vacancies in supportive housing as they services like meals and stuff like that," whether it be the need it. That is located at the MarbleA rch, which is one Dunsmuir hotel or the Backpackers Inn or whatever the of the buildings we use, so it's close to the need. case may be. There's been no question that there have been some The evolution of this is that our societies have also bumps in the road as we worked it through with our started to learn different levels of what would be best non-profit partners, but because they're all collaborative practices on some of these things. We sit down, negoti- and they're all pushing in the same direction, we work ate and work with these guys all the time. Again, as I said through each one of those bumps as we try and improve earlier, we're pushing in the same direction. the service. Our integration project, which I'll probably end up closing with because we've only got a few minutes, has S. Simpson: I know. I've talked to some of those part- actually started to bring some of the other services from ners, and they agree that they're moving forward. They're other agencies of government so that we can continue to not totally satisfied with some of the resolve, and some up the funding on different services that some organiza- of those bumps, as the minister calls them, are what are tions feel that they'd like to add into the buildings. occurring, I think. Hopefully, they will get sorted out in a way that's satisfactory to everybody. S. Simpson: I think, actually, probably the last ques- One of the other issues that relates to this…. I know tion, because I know that we're getting close. The clock that finances are tight. There's some question about the is ticking out here. I think it's the last question. I'm never level of services in those buildings because they are 24-7. sure about that. I shouldn't make those assertions — that These are buildings that need more than just a caretaker, it's the last question. obviously. They need other kinds of services. [1840] I know that the ministry and the government are I'm looking for the minister to probably talk about providing resources to make those services available. his homeless integration plan. The ROS s are purchased. There are issues about numbers of people and that, and There's some assisted living. There are the 31 projects levels of budgets. The question, I guess, is a general one that I have on this list that are moving forward in some 1758 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, October 28, 2009 way in different places around the province. That pro- But we also have to remember that we've actually vides, I think, about 1,800 to 1,900 units roughly — I'm bought 45 properties in total across the province. We've not sure how many units it is — in that project, plus the bought buildings in Victoria and in Prince George and SROs. in the Okanagan and places like that, so we could go into We know that we have a significant homeless popula- even small communities. tion on top of that that's still a challenge that has to be For instance, in Quesnel we bought the Wheel Inn. met. Could the minister tell us what initiatives he views They had a homeless issue. We took the Wheel Inn, going forward to begin to get at that issue? which is a little old motel, renovated it, and now that's taking care of their problem for them in their mind. So Hon. R. Coleman: I'm happy to, and I think that we we have to look at it globally, even though oftentimes it's can actually close on this because it does cover it. There always the media focus being the Lower Mainland. are initiatives in place in addition to what we're doing. I'll take a couple of minutes here, Mr. Chair. I know As we've learned, this file in British Columbia…. And you would like me to note the time. probably other jurisdictions, but I would actually dare In addition to all the things we've done with the out- to say that we're doing this better than anybody else reach workers — connecting and housing 7,000 people in Canada today, because I've talked to my colleagues in over 40 communities — and the housing that we're across the country, who say: "How are you pulling this doing and the stuff we bought, earlier this year we said: off?" "Let's go one step further." That's when we talked ear- But when we start to change the model to support- lier about the czar thing and about the leadership of the ive housing for somebody, saying we're dealing with the ministry and what have you and who is in charge and person rather than just getting him off the street and what the mandate was for us. into a home, it changes the whole dynamic. We put that mandate together, and we put a team As you change that dynamic, you find people that can together, and we call it the homelessness intervention be housed in the normal marketplace that don't have to project. We selected five cities — Victoria, Vancouver, be in supportive housing. You find people who say: "If Surrey, Kelowna and Prince George. We put this team in you could just let me go back to whatever community I place, and their objective — over and above all else that came from. I have family there, but I can't get back there. we were doing — is that they would find, identify and I'm ready to make a change in my life." We can do that. move 100 chronically homeless people a month from But we have a number of other initiatives, as we've street to home through a system of supports over the identified the cohort, with regards to the severely men- next 18 months. tally ill and homeless and addicted person on our streets. That actually started about five and a half months ago. That's not a big number of people, but it's certainly a I'm very proud of this initiative. I'm so proud of my col- number that police almost see regularly and our health leagues in other ministries across government who took care system sees pretty regularly. down the barriers and silos and made this happen so In Vancouver, for instance, we're going to do some- that we that could do this. Remembering, again, that thing at the St. Helen's, I think it is, to try and have a we said 1,800 people chronically homeless, by this one short-term urgent care centre so that police would have intervention project, over 18 months. As of today, that a place to take somebody where there's clinical help, etc., number is actually 1,693 in less than six months. rather than taking them to the emergency room under [1845] the Mental Health Act. They could do this under the I think that it's a remarkable story, because not only Mental Health Act because we'd have people there for did they do this, but they've also connected them to them. housing. Because it's an integrated thing with Health That would be so we could stabilize them so that and other ministries across government, Aboriginal they could then go to a place like the Burnaby Centre Relations and all that, we're actually getting this cooperative for Mental Health and Addictions where they could get relationship with everybody on the ground. That is a some help over a longer period of time and identify their huge breakthrough on any file, particularly when you needs and then house them in such a way that would can do it like this. meet their needs long term. I wanted to bring that up only because I'm so proud We tend to think and talk Vancouver when we talk of the people doing this job and the work that they're about homelessness, because we bought 23 SROs, and doing and the leadership of Allison Bond on this file. I we're building about a thousand units there — plus, am very pleased that those chronically homeless people actually. It's closer to 2,000, probably, in the pipeline, and are being placed and put into available situations where we've opened a bunch. We've opened one on Hastings we can help them, because we've had this whole buy-in recently, which is 100 units, and then the Woodward's from communities. thing is coming on. All these things are starting to come I'm very proud of that, and I wanted to sort of close on stream. on that because I wouldn't want to do estimates and Wednesday, October 28, 2009 British Columbia Debates 1759

not mention that project. I think that they deserve and whether it's perfect, but when I look at these people, a little additional kudos. I mean, the guys at B.C. they do, I think, a pretty phenomenal job. Housing…. Actually, I think this whole ministry, by the way, is phenomenal in the way they handle the Vote 36: ministry operations, $2,714,603,000 — social services side, people with disabilities, develop- approved. mentally disabled, the issues in and around the larger Crown corporations they have. Hon. R. Coleman: I move that we rise, report The whole package is a very well-coordinated, inte- the estimates of the Ministry of Housing and Social grated group of people focused in a direction who have Development complete and seek leave to sit again. actually shown — frankly, in my opinion — the rest of government how to integrate and how to do things in certain Motion approved. ways to get success. There can always be arguments about whether you're getting all the success you can get The committee rose at 6:47 p.m.

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