Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, April 20, 2010 Morning Sitting Volume 15, Number 1

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie –Deer Lake...... Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... –Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... –Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 20, 2010 Morning Sitting

Page

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 4527 Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued) On the amendment (continued) J. Slater L. Krog Hon. S. Thomson N. Macdonald R. Howard

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 4543 Estimates: Ministry of Healthy Living and Sport (continued) K. Corrigan Hon. M. McNeil J. Brar Hon. I. Chong M. Sather D. Donaldson

4527

TUESDAY, APRIL 20, 2010 ural gas for your home and hydro — none of those will be affected. The House met at 10:03 a.m. The benefits of the proposed HST. Everyone will re- ceive a $230 tax credit for individuals making up to [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] $20,000 and a $230 tax credit per family member for families with incomes up to $25,000. This means $920 Prayers. for a family of four. Bicycles, memberships, team sports, etc., have been Orders of the Day talked about by the opposite members. They would have to spend $15,000 a year on those types of items for the Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, I call Committee HST to cost them any money in their families. Basic per- of Supply — for the information of members, the es- sonal tax credit increases to $11,000 on January 1, 2010, timates of the Ministry of Healthy Living and Sport put another $80 into your pocket. — and, in this chamber, continued second reading de- We all know how challenging it can be for first-time bate on Bill 9. homebuyers purchasing a new home. A rebate will en- sure that on average, purchasers of new homes up to Second Reading of Bills $525,000 do not pay more tax due to harmonization than is currently embedded as PST in the price of a new Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate home. Purchasers of new homes above $525,000 will and Transition Act be eligible for a rebate of $26,250 on the first $525,000. (continued) And note that buyers of used homes will not pay any HST. On the amendment (continued). The province is also proposing an enhanced rebate on new rental housing, similar to the enhanced rebate for J. Slater: Speaking to the amendment, there are many new homes, to support the construction of substantial myths about the HST. It will increase the cost to heat renovation for affordable rental housing in B.C. your home, fill your prescriptions and put gasoline in Madam Speaker, I would like to refer to another letter your vehicle. HST won't increase the cost of heating or from my constituency. He states: "Information sup- powering your home, filling your prescriptions or put- porting the HST tends to be technical and dry, while ting gasoline in your vehicles. those opposing the tax can rely on trite sound bites and slogans to generate fear and anger." There is truth in [C. Trevena in the chair.] what he's saying. It is easier to chant, "HST will cost you more" than to chant all the benefits of the HST. There are point-of-sale rebates for books, children's- He has a small business, and he goes on to say, "When sized clothing and footwear, diapers, children's car seats, the HST was first announced, I crunched through the children's booster seats and feminine hygiene products. numbers. Compliance reporting and tax remissions are In addition, like the GST, the HST will not apply to reduced. The elimination of the PST on my inputs will basic groceries and residential rent, two items which ac- also save me significant dollars, so I can choose to pass count for a large portion of total expenditures for the those on to my charge-outs to my clients," thus making average family. Any goods or services that the consumer his business more viable and sustainable. does not pay GST on today, they won't pay HST on He finishes his letter with saying: "Finally, every day either. I see some group or another claiming that all levels of [1005] government are not spending enough on health care, Another HST myth is that the HST adds $2,100 to education, law and order, roadbuilding, parks, etc. We your yearly costs. In reality, you would need to spend as a society have developed an enormous sense of en- $30,000 on currently PST-exempt items to reach $2,100 titlement and expectations. We want these items, yet we — like haircuts, movie tickets and restaurant meals. That don't want to pay for them." is a lot of entertaining, which I believe would be way As an inducement to switch to the HST from the old more than the average family or senior. PST/GST, the federal government is forwarding B.C. Another myth is that you're going to pay more for $1.6 billion. That's about $4,000 for everyone that lives car insurance, home insurance, home heating, gasoline, in B.C. The anti-HST lobby should tell everyone signing electricity and more. TheH ST won't change the price of their petitions what other taxes they propose increas- any of those items. They are either exempt, rebated or ing or services they propose cutting to replace the $1.6 currently subject to PST and GST. Many of what they billion. have listed as HST-exempt, including car insurance, A common complaint about the HST is that it benefits home insurance, home heating oil, gas for vehicles, nat- big businesses. The more important part of that state- 4528 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

ment is that the employees of those businesses are the Throughout the 1990s punitive personal and business true beneficiaries. When companies gain competitive tax policies drove people, companies and investments advantages, they can grow and expand, hiring more away from British Columbia. Since 2001 the B.C. Liberal people for the long term. If companies have more money government has been working very hard every day to because their overhead has been reduced because of build a more nationally and internationally competitive the embedded PST being removed, it gives them more business environment, starting with the significant per- money for profit, which enables them to expand their sonal and business tax cuts — a 44 percent reduction in business, hire more people and pay higher wages. the small business corporate income tax rate, a 39 per- [1010] cent reduction in general corporate income tax by 2011, The long-term benefits for businesses? The HST will 37 percent average personal tax cuts, and eliminating make B.C. one of the most competitive jurisdictions provincial income taxes for an additional 325,000 low- not only in Canada but in the industrialized world. This income earners in British Columbia. means B.C. will be an attractive place for investments Those tax cuts directly stimulated our economy by to create long-term, stable employment. Moving to a bringing investors back to British Columbia. TheH ST is value-added tax such as HST is necessary to keep B.C. the next step in building a stronger B.C. economy. competitive in a global economy. Combined with more than 120 tax cuts since 2001, the More than 130 countries, including 29 of 30 of the proposed HST means British Columbians will continue OECD countries, have adopted similar tax policies, and to pay among the lowest taxes in Canada. B.C. lowered British Columbia will be one of six other Canadian prov- the small business tax rate from 4.5 to 2.5 in 2008, the inces with a similar tax system. second-lowest rate in Canada. By April 1, 2012, the tax It will reduce administrative and compliance costs. will be cut again to zero, the lowest level in Canada. This is estimated at $120 million for the businesses in Since 2001, B.C. has eliminated the general corpor- British Columbia. Compliance and paperwork costs will ation capital tax and reduced corporate income tax by decline for tens of thousands of businesses. Under the one-third to give B.C. one of the most competitive tax present system separate provincial and federal taxes have regimes in the country. B.C. will raise the small business to be collected and reported. Tax-filing, compliance and corporate income threshold from the current $400,000 other regulatory costs will be significantly lower under to $500,000, the highest in Canada, on January 1, 2010, the HST, which should be beneficial for all businesses. saving small businesses a total of $20 million a year. It will attract new investment. Adopting the HST will As you know, I represent many rural communities stimulate. Experience in eastern Canada or Atlantic in my riding. Many of them, through this economic Canada and other jurisdictions confirms that shifting to downturn, have suffered, and there is a turnaround the value-added sales tax, like HST, paves the way for beginning. increased capital spending on machinery, equipment, [1015] structures, new technologies and other productive In August 2009 Interfor opened the Grand Forks mill assets. that currently employs 75 workers. The owners of the Additional business investment should lead to faster Midway mill are scoping opportunities for value-added economic growth, more jobs, higher productivity and in order to open their mill. greater exports, all of which are good for the workers The forestry sector is expected to benefit to the tune and consumers of British Columbia. of $140 million with the implementation of the HST. We will have increased productivity. We're go- Other major industries such as mining, oil and gas and ing to create jobs and long-term economic growth. transportation provide thousands of jobs for rural com- "Harmonization of B.C.'s sales tax with the federal GST munities. B.C. resource and manufacturing sectors are is one of the most important policy directions we can expected to benefit significantly from the HST as their put in place today to position us for a strong recovery at business inputs and exports will no longer be taxed. The the end of our current economic difficulties." This is a transportation and construction sectors will benefit quote from John Winter, the president and CEO of B.C. from the removal of the PST and will, over time, be on a Chamber of Commerce. level playing field with their competitors in Alberta. Another quote from John Schroeder, president of The idea of harmonizing sales taxes has been brought Valleybrook International Ventures: "As a small to mid- up for years. A compelling opportunity did not exist until sized business owner and farmer, I believe the move to last year with changes and new flexibility introduced by the HST makes good economic sense and will be good the federal government. The transition funding of $1.6 for all British Columbians. No one likes taxes, but the billion will assist greatly in the providing of necessary HST makes a lot more sense than the PST it's replacing." funds to provide our core services with health care and As a business owner with operations in both B.C. and education. , he supports the HST as being a "long-term The other opportunity that didn't exist before was the positive for our company and our employees." opportunity to allow the province to have point-of-sale Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4529

rebates and other measures to help offset the impact of eage of David, to be taxed with his espoused wife Mary, the provincial portion of the HST as needed. The HST being great with child." is a consumptive tax. Those who pay it, use it. Those Taxes have been around for a very long time. We don't who don't pay will reap the benefits — the benefits of have Caesar Augustus in British Columbia right now. removal of the PST, increased tax credit programs and a We have an elected government. The good citizens of the viable and sustainable economy. Roman Empire didn't have that opportunity. [1020] Deputy Speaker: Member, may I remind you that This government was actually elected by the people we're talking about the amendment. If you could refer in an election, which is an opportunity for voters to say your speech to the amendment. whether they approve of the policies of one party or ap- prove of the policies of another. J. Slater: Our government is working hard to ensure The problem and the reason for this amendment pro- that B.C. recovers from the economic slowdown in the posed by the member for Port Coquitlam are really very shortest time possible. The ongoing scrutiny from in- simple. This isn't just a minor shift of policy. This isn't vestors and bond-rating agencies reminds us that we something sort of simple and straightforward. This is a can't afford to become complacent or delay this act. We major change in British Columbia's taxation policy, and need to remain prudent with our fiscal plans in order to there was absolutely no consultation with the people of effectively manage through the downturn and into - re British Columbia whatsoever before this government covery. The choices we have made have enabled us to announced happily that it was going to bring in a har- maintain our triple-A rating, the highest bond rating monized sales tax. you can receive, since 2006. In my community I spend as much time as I can out In conclusion, I would just like to refer the mem- on the streets talking to my constituents, going to public bers opposite to the support that is indeed out there. events, listening to what they have to say. I think that's The B.C. Agriculture Council, the B.C. Business an important role for an MLA — to represent the views Council, B.C. Chamber of Commerce, B.C. Lumber of their constituents, to understand what is important to Trade Council, Coast Forest Products Association, their constituents, and to reflect those viewpoints and Chartered Accountants of British Columbia, Canadian give them voice in this Legislature. Manufacturers and Exporters, Certified General It's fairly clear, I think, given the polling numbers Accountants, the Mining Association of B.C., B.C. and even if you allow for a range of inaccuracy, that the Trucking Association, New Car Dealers Association of people of British Columbia appear to be somewhat dis- British Columbia. tressed by the imposition of the harmonized sales tax. They make it sound as if nobody is supporting this Give or take, I think the number is around 81 or 82 per- HST. These organizations represent thousands and thou- cent of the population that don't think this is a really sands of workers that want to go back to work in British good idea. Columbia, and I think the 120,000 people that could be They haven't quite seen the benefit of the HST yet. estimated to go back through this regime deserve a say They don't understand why it's such a good thing, not- as well. That's why I'm supporting the motion and not withstanding the eloquent defence of the HST that we supporting the amendment. have heard over and over again from the government benches in the last few weeks. I suspect that for most Deputy Speaker: I'd like to remind all of our mem- British Columbians, it is eating the fruit of the bitter tree, bers that we are talking about the motion, which is: "Be as they say — or the bitter fruit of the tree or something it resolved that Bill 9 not be read a second time now to that effect. But whatever it is, British Columbians but that the subject matter be forwarded to the Select don't appear to like the taste of it whatsoever. Standing Committee on Finance and Government What's more remarkable is the timing of this. We go Services and further that the committee be empow- through an election campaign in which the government, ered to invite witnesses to appear before it to assist in to its credit, asserts in its own policy…. Indeed, in a let- its deliberation." ter to the B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices Association it says quite directly that the B.C. Liberals are also mind- L. Krog: "And it came to pass in those days that ful that a harmonized GST would reduce the provincial there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that government's ability to unilaterally adjust sales tax cred- all the world should be taxed. And this taxing was its. It goes on to conclude that, in short, a harmonized first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. And GST is not something that is contemplated in the B.C. all went down to be taxed, everyone into his own city. Liberal platform. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of The government would have us believe there was some Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is epiphany on the road to Damascus, so to speak — that called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lin- at some point the Minister of Finance was swept over 4530 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

by this brilliant revelation that the HST was going to be portunity for them to express alternative views, without the best thing for British Columbia's economy, bar none, the opportunity for them to be heard around what is in the history of the province. We can forget about the probably — I think I'm safe in saying this — the most dams. We can forget about income tax. We can forget unpopular tax in British Columbia's history. about roads and transportation and B.C. Rail. Just give I have never in my lifetime in this province seen such us the old HST, and things will be great. What's more a reaction in the streets, in malls, on the doorstep as I important is how zealously the government has taken have over the HST. You know, there is nothing wrong up this cry. We know it was an epiphany, and it all hap- with the government taking a tough stance. You can pened at Meech Lake. look back to the Second World War, and don't you wish Now, those of us familiar with the history of consti- the Canadian government had had the guts to resist the tutional issues in this country know what a wonderful, cry of many who were racist in our society, who called resoundingly popular move the Meech Lake accord was. for the internment of the Japanese? If they had had the I would have thought the Minister of Finance, when he political courage to stand up and stop that, what a won- was there, would have been aware of what was referred derful thing that would have been. to, I think, in the west as the curse of Meech Lake. So it's right for governments to go against the major- What he said in this House on November 23 last year ity of people on occasion. There is a time to stand up for was: principle, but we are talking about a matter which is not "The very first indication that anyone in the federal government really a matter of principle. We're talking about a matter would have had that British Columbia was reconsidering its pre- of taxation and a tax that is being brought in without the vious opposition to the HST was a comment I made to the fed- consultation that is important. eral Minister of Finance during a break in the deliberations of the Finance ministers' meeting that was held at Meech Lake at the The remarkable thing is that this government, by end of May. It was only subsequent to that that there were discus- bringing in this bill, the Consumption Tax Rebate and sions that commenced at the officials level." Transition Act — there's a mouthful for you — has man- [1025] aged to perform a miracle of biblical proportions. The miracle at Meech. There it struck the Minister of Bill Vander Zalm left this chamber with a cloud of Finance. There it occurred. There was the germination. disgrace over his head. He has tried to revive his pol- Like the rock struck in the desert, it all spouted forth itical career in various ways since he left office in 1991, from that — that if only British Columbians would re- and what this government has done is performed a mir- spond positively to the concept of an HST, things would acle. Like Lazarus risen, Bill Vander Zalm, I dare say, is get good. We would be led to the promised land by the probably one of the most popular politicians in British imposition of the HST. Things would improve, British Columbia today. I want to give full credit to the Minister Columbians would be happy, workers would have jobs, of Finance and the B.C. Liberals for reviving Bill Vander businesses would make profits, and everything would Zalm. be grand. Whoever would have thunk it — that Bill Vander Well, I'm afraid the Meech Lake revelation — the Zalm could go around this province, to hall after hall, epiphany at Meech Lake, as I call it — was really more being greeted by cheering crowds and seen as the cham- of a bit of a horror story. None of us were there. The pion of the people? I guess Bill Vander Zalm takes it Minister of Finance was, and some government officials, quite seriously. He does regard himself as his brother's but the people of British Columbia weren't consulted. keeper, because clearly the government isn't looking out They weren't asked, and that is the substance of the for ordinary British Columbians on this one. They have motion before the House — to give an opportunity, at chosen instead to push ahead with this unpopular tax last, for British Columbians to make submissions to without the consultation that is contemplated by the their duly elected government, to all of the MLAs, to an motion before the House. all-party committee representing British Columbians [1030] rich and poor, north and south, east and west, island- It's all about credibility. If you're going to do some- ers, mainlanders, dwellers of the Interior, and to give thing of a fundamental nature, you have to consult. You them all an opportunity to say something about the can't just drop it in the people's lap. You can't go through HST. an election not talking about it or indeed, even worse, What could possibly be more reasonable than that? saying one thing during the election and before the elec- This isn't like deciding to plant roses in a different part tion and then doing something different after. You can't of your garden. And this isn't like deciding to wear a do that. different-coloured suit one day and a different-coloured Well, I shouldn't say that. Grammatically speaking, suit the next day. This is a fundamental change inB ritish you can. It's just that you probably shouldn't, because Columbia's taxation policy. We are in the process, if this it's not very good politics, and it doesn't do much to government wins the day and the vote in this House, enhance the important work that is done in every legis- of imposing it on British Columbians without the op- lature in the country. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4531

What it does to your credibility, what it does to pub- one to reach out and give them a little safety and security, lic trust is quite striking. Referring back to the polling what do they want to do? They want to say no. numbers, the government's down — what? — 18 per- So here we are doing, if I may say it — and I don't cent from where it was during the election campaign. mean this mockingly — the Lord's work on this side The language being used to describe this government is of the House, and they…. Well, we know where they anything but complimentary, and it's not compliment- want to go. They want to go to a political place that isn't ary for a very good reason — because the people feel heaven. It isn't heaven. They want to be reduced to such that they were betrayed, that they weren't given the minuscule numbers that they'll make the old Socred straight goods. Party that was left after the '91 election look like a ma- Notwithstanding how many members can stand jority caucus. up and say such charming things as the member who I want to remind the members opposite that when I preceded me…. In his remarks he referred to it as a was elected in 1991, the great Social Credit Party that compelling opportunity. I'm not suggesting it's a perfect had dominated British Columbia politics since 1952, analogy, but it's like finding a thousand dollars on the except for three short years of good government under counter of the bank and grabbing it and running. Now, Dave Barrett, was reduced to seven seats — seven seats, that might be a compelling opportunity, but the mem- hon. Speaker. ber for Boundary-Similkameen, when he uses that kind [1035] of language to describe a $1.6 billion payoff from the I can see that the Minister for Mining is about to start federal government…. I'm not sure that's the language talking about the 2001 election. I can hear the gears in I would use. his brain working as he's about to say: "Your party was For a government in trouble, facing a significant defi- reduced to two seats." Well, even if he's not going to say cit, that may truly be a truly compelling opportunity. As it, I'm going to say it, because I think there's a lesson in my granny would have said: "If you're going to be hung, this. you might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb." I guess When you're seen to be, whether you are or you aren't if we're talking about a thousand bucks on the counter is almost of no consequence. When you're seen to be of the bank versus a $1.6 billion payoff, that may in fact out of touch, when you're seen to be arrogant, when be where the money does talk louder than anything else. you're seen to be a government that has stopped listen- It's one thing to have opportunity knock, but to describe ing to the people, the people exact a pretty remarkable this as an opportunity, a compelling opportunity, is just price. so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Now, I don't like the concept of stone throwing — and The reason British Columbians need to be con- you know the old line, something to the effect that let sulted is, firstly, I would suggest, to restore credibility he amongst you without guilt cast the first stone — but in public process generally and, secondly, to remind there are a lot of people chucking rocks, and it's not just the politicians who will be sitting on that committee, the opposition. I would have thought that rather than if this amendment passes, that they are there to rep- meet the grisly fate that awaits this government, they resent the people, that they are there to listen to the would, having had this motion thrown to them — a life- people. line, if you will…. Having had this lifeline thrown to When 80 percent of the population, on a tax issue, them, you would have thought they would have grabbed speak with such a strong voice as they are doing in every it, that they would have stepped back. corner of this province day in, day out, signing the in- I mean, just yesterday we saw the Premier of the prov- itiative, then you should sit up and listen, because if you ince flying up there with an entourage, like the flight of don't sit up and listen, there's a price to be paid. the Valkyries — up to the great dam, the W.A.C. Bennett The last thingI want is an opportunity for this govern- dam that backs up Lake Williston. We saw them flying ment to get re-elected again in 2013. That's the last thing up there to announce something that, hopefully, will get I want. But I would have thought that with all the paid them out of the political glue. minions over there in the public affairs bureau, with all They were up there to associate themselves with the the talent that's been hired by this government, with legacy of W.A.C. Bennett. If I've said it once in this all the legislative experience of the members opposite, House, I've said it twice. I've said it three times. I've somewhere, somehow at some point somebody would probably said it more times than the members opposite turn to the Premier, to the Minister of Finance and say: care to hear it. W.A.C. Bennett was a wily old politician "I don't think this is working." who dominated the politics of this province for 20 years Here we are in the opposition, as usual, doing what by always remembering and always being willing to take New Democrats always want to do when they see some- his famous second look, and that's all we're asking the one in trouble, and that is to reach out and try and save government to do with this motion. We're asking the them. As this government is in the eddy of the river, their government to take the famous second look that kept hand held up, looking for assistance, looking for some- W.A.C. Bennett in power for 20 years. 4532 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Because Bennett, better than anybody, with the ex- I mean, we have sold out. We have given up our ception of maybe Dave Barrett and Bob Strachan, had sovereignty for $1.6 billion. Now, I suppose with infla- a sense of what the electorate felt. What the electorate is tion, maybe 30 shekels is worth $1.6 billion. I have no feeling now is not the milk of human kindness. It is not idea. I haven't done the math. But then again, I'm fairly warm and fuzzy thoughts for this government. They're satisfied the government never did the math on theH ST not going to be presenting them with teddy bears. either. It's fairly clear to me. If they didn't do the math They will not be bringing them gifts of figs and dates for the money, I can tell you one thing for certain: they and offering cold cloths for their foreheads as they feel didn't do the math around the popularity of this. As my the fever pitch of a government that is truly literally sick old campaign manager constantly reminds me, the most with power because it believes so strongly that it can important thing in politics: you've got to know how to manage to jam this one down the throats of the people count. of British Columbia and somehow come out the other Hon Speaker, it's pretty clear to me this government end, in 2013, and be government. It is not going to hap- didn't count very well. Because you've got the member pen. It is not going to happen. for Boundary-Similkameen bragging about the tax cuts, You know, I think I could safely paraphrase some- and we're sitting at the other end of a nine-year regime thing Mencken said about his countrymen. He said very now, with an enormous deficit that would be even bigger unkindly — H.L. Mencken did — of the Americans that if we hadn't taken the $1.6 billion bribe from the fed- they were a country that went from barbarism to deca- eral government — stealing, if you will, from the people dence without a comparable period of civilization in of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and Prince Edward between. Very unkind. Island and Ontario and Quebec and Saskatchewan and I don't wish to associate myself with those remarks, Manitoba — in order to get us to buy into this incredibly but I must say that I'm tempted to remind this gov- unpopular and demonstrably, I would suggest, likely un- ernment that we have gone from a really big deficit to successful tax regime. another really big deficit without a comparable period So the government wanted the money, and it took it. of prosperity in between that was actually distributed to Now the opposition wisely, graciously, kindly, in the best the very British Columbians who needed it most. spirit we can possibly muster, being Her Majesty's Loyal We have seen an increase in homelessness like never Opposition, have said to the government: "Refer it to a before. We have seen, notwithstanding what the Minister committee." Is there anything wrong? of Education and the Minister of Health tell us over and It will be a wonderful forum, if the government is over again in the House, a strain put on our health care, to be believed, a wonderful forum for them to demon- our public health care system and our education system. strate with numbers and through presenters and all of It's no more or better reflected than in the remarks this those people they keep talking about, that huge num- morning of the member for Boundary-Similkameen ber of ordinary British Columbians. You know, the head when he talked about the long list of tax cuts, all the of the B.C. Business Council, the head of the forest in- long list of tax cuts, as if somehow just cutting taxes was dustry, the heads of all the major companies in British such a good thing. Columbia — the ordinary British Columbians. Now I go back to where I started, when I talked about It will be a wonderful opportunity for them to come Caesar Augustus — not a popular guy. forward and say to Betty in Port Coquitlam, making [1040] $24,000 a year working at Burger King — or to Ralph in Prince George who has been laid off for eight months Hon. I. Black: He was just misunderstood. — that this HST is going to be good for them, that it's actually going to help them. It will be that opportun- L. Krog: The minister over there says that he was just ity, hon. Speaker, but this government seems absolutely misunderstood. Well, I hate to tell the Minister for Small hardened, like Pharaoh's heart, hardened to the possibil- Business, Technology and Economic Development, but ities of actually listening to common sense. I think that lack of understanding might, indeed, extend You never corner a rat. That's an old cliché. And I'm to the government benches. not suggesting government's a rat. You never corner any The member for Boundary-Similkameen bragged wild creature. You have to give it a way out, unless you're literally about the significant reductions, mainly in prepared to kill it, of course. So we in the opposition corporate taxes. I'm thinking to myself: "Why is this are saying that as the government here is cornered, in government bragging continuously about tax cuts when the full political sense of the word, there's a graceful exit we've gone from this enormous deficit when they first here. came in — after inheriting a surplus budget — toan- We can let you scurry out of the corner to the other enormous deficit that would be even bigger if we Standing Committee on Finance and offer an opportun- hadn't taken the 30 pieces of silver, so to speak, from the ity to gracefully back away, to maintain some dignity, to federal government — to be bought?" indeed evidence that politicians who have no trust any- Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4533

more — certainly on that side of the House — in whom night coming down to say something. Maybe it was a the British Columbian population proposed no love, voice he should have ignored. faith or trust. I don't know if the government is listening, but out It is an opportunity for them to demonstrate that there beyond this chamber there is a mighty roar. It is they've — how shall I say it? — been born again, born coming from the mouths of over 80 percent of British again in a spirit of openness and transparency, that their Columbians, and they're saying to this government: "Do ears that were once filled with sand have cleaned and not do this to me. Do not do this to me." emptied and they are now prepared again to listen to the I simply want to say to the Minister of Finance and people of British Columbia. to the government and to the Premier and to all those [1045] who sit around the cabinet table: you can play around in What a wonderful opportunity. And yet, I am sens- what is jokingly referred to as the Nile, the river denial, ing here in this chamber this morning that my words and pretend it's not happening, but this government is are falling on deaf ears, that the government is hardened headed for political oblivion. It will make the political to its purpose, notwithstanding the opportunity it has oblivion suffered by the Socreds in the 1991 election to save itself, to be rescued by the extended hand of the look like child's play. opposition's motion, by the member for Port Coquitlam Do the right thing, government. Step back, and can- who on behalf of the NDP caucus has given them this cel this. great, singular opportunity to save themselves. One gets the feeling that they are pushing away that Hon. S. Thomson: I'm very pleased today to take proffered hand, that they would rather, as I said of my place in the Legislature to oppose the proposed this bill — the longest political suicide note in British amendment and to support the continued direction for Columbia history — commit political suicide, that they the passage of Bill 9, the Consumption Tax Rebate and would prefer to disappear beneath the waves. Transition Act, and the steps required for the implemen- In the heady ocean of B.C. politics, in the rushing river tation of the harmonized sales tax in British Columbia. — well, the ones that aren't, how shall I say, destroyed The passage of this will allow the HST to take effect to by an independent power project, in any event — when the very significant benefit of B.C.'s agriculture sector, they're sinking, when they're in trouble, they don't want providing a more streamlined taxation system for B.C.'s to take this opportunity to step back. Because we know, primary agriculture producers, food processors and the with the way the money has played out, that they could B.C. aquaculture industry. actually step back. They've got that opportunity. [1050] You know, the people of British Columbia will forgive At a time when many of our sectors in agriculture a couple more hundred million on their big fat deficit. are facing significant challenges, the benefits of a more After all, if you're in for $1.8 billion, what's another $200 competitive environment could not come at a more im- million, I suppose, arguably speaking from their side? I portant time. mean, they just committed to a $6.6 billion dam yester- I know the members opposite and the members on day. They don't have the money for that either. this side of the House are aware of the very significant Come to think of it, because of their wonderful tax challenges facing parts of our agriculture industry — policy and their great management of the economy, the ranching industry, parts of our horticulture sector, British Columbians don't have money for health care. the hog industry. Some of the horticulture sector, tree We don't have it for education. We don't have it for fruits and many parts of that sector, are facing very, very children. We don’t have it for the Nanaimo Women's significant challenges as they compete on a world mar- Resources Society. We don't have it for all kinds of ket against international prices that challenge this sector organizations. at this very important time in our province. Given that, clearly, money can't be that much of a pri- This is a measure that the industry has been asking ority for this government, because they're running this the government to take for some time — in fact, for big deficit and they have run so many big deficits, why many years. The industry, through their farm organiza- would they turn down this chance through this amend- tions, has over these years made representation to the ment? Why would they turn it down? It is beyond me. government and to the Standing Committee on Finance I suggest politely to the minister that rather than let his and Government Services for a harmonized approach, name be associated with that monster from Meech Lake, recognizing that the current, antiquated system results with the curse of Meech Lake, when he had that epiph- in additional cost, administrative burden and reduced any at the water cooler, or maybe it was over the coffee competitiveness internationally and interprovincially. cup — GST-exempt, I'm sure…. Maybe we've given him I know that, because I've worked for these farm or- a chance to realize that he listened to the wrong voice, ganizations and associations for many years and was that it wasn't the voice of who he thought it was whis- part of that representation by those organizations to pering in his ear, that maybe it wasn't Nicodemus in the government looking for a change in the current system, 4534 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

looking for that harmonized approach. The current sys- across the province would say: "The BCAC has long re- tem was very, very challenging for the industry. quested PST reform. HST gives us everything we asked It was a patchwork of some exemptions from PST. It for and more. This is an ongoing annuity of $15 million got to the point where many retailers were not provid- to $23 million a year of direct benefit to the industry." ing the PST exemptions that were even available to the Madam Speaker, that is not offering nothing new. industry because the list became so antiquated. It didn't That is providing support to assist an industry on a con- keep pace with current technology, with changes in the sistent, ongoing basis. An ongoing benefit, improving industry, and the industry recognized that a harmon- their competitive position, direct to producers, direct to ized approach between PST and GST was the answer to their bottom lines and, as I said, on an ongoing, con- the many problems they were facing with the current sistent basis every year once the harmonized sales tax is system. implemented. The systems we put in place today will have a direct ef- [1055] fect on the next generation's debt and the ability to feed a That is why the B.C. Food Processors Association, growing population. A harmonized sales tax will help us the organization representing a wide range of B.C. food manage provincial debt. We're not only thinking about processors, said: "We welcome the announcement from ensuring farmers are still profitably producing food for the B.C. government. It will help stimulate the food- the next generation, but we're planning so that the next processing industry and help processors become more generation is not overburdened with debt. competitive." That is why the B.C. Agriculture Council, repre- This is especially significant in these difficult times. senting over 10,000 primary producers, said: "This will That is why the B.C. Grain Producers Association, the have a significant and positive impact on agriculture organization representing all those grain and oilseed overall and is consistent with what our members have producers in the Peace River region, said, "This will been calling for." They further said: "We recognize the make it easier for us as business owners, with reduced fiscal challenges facing the province, and we are pleased paperwork and clear guidelines on what can be claimed that creative measures are being taken to help agricul- back," and it will reduce costs. ture contribute to B.C.'s economic, environmental and That is why we received correspondence from theB .C. social fabric." Shellfish GrowersA ssociation that said: "For many years B.C. farm-gate sales total $2.3 billion, and the food- the association has lobbied to get more farming items to processing sector accounts for $6.6 billion in revenue. be PST exempt…. The HST will be paid on purchases, Over 60,000 people are employed by the primary but farmers can file for input tax credits to fully recover agriculture and processing sectors. It's a very, very im- the amount of tax paid. Getting more tax back is good portant sector for British Columbia. We produce over for the shellfish industry." 250 different commodities. It's very diverse. It is a con- That is why the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association has tributor to the economy in every region of the province, endorsed this initiative. This is positive for aquaculture. to many of our rural communities, and it's very import- It's positive for agriculture. On the aquaculture indus- ant that we take measures that will help strengthen the try, that's over 3,000 jobs, $500 million in economic competitiveness and the profitability of this sector in activity, employment in rural and coastal commun- the long term. ities, many of it with First Nations communities. The The member for Saanich South and the Agriculture economic development in the aquaculture industry has critic said, in commenting on the 2010 budget when the reduced unemployment by 50 percent in many of those provincial budget was tabled: "Yesterday's budget of- communities. fered nothing new for the farming community in British That is why the B.C. Cattlemen's Association, the Columbia." B.C. Greenhouse Growers Association, the B.C. That really leads me to wonder why, then, the B.C. Fruit Growers Association, the B.C. Milk Producers Agriculture Council…. As I said, it's an organization Association have all applauded and endorsed this deci- representing over 10,000 producers in every region of sion and this initiative. the province; every commodity sector; the whole scope As I noted, this measure will result in an estimated of producers, which includes small-lot producers, family $16 million to $18 million in direct benefit to the bot- farms, larger operations. They said at their recent annual tom lines for B.C.'s primary producers and $24 million meeting of B.C. farm organizations, their annual meet- to B.C.'s food-processing sector. ing where all those farm organizations are represented These are the direct benefits. This does not include by their delegates and by the representatives from those the benefits or the removal of layers and layers of prov- organizations…. incial sales tax costs that producers pay on equipment I wonder, if the indication is that we weren't doing any- and farm input costs — costs all the way through the thing for the agriculture industry, why the Agriculture manufacturing value chain, a tax upon a tax upon a tax, Council representing those farmers and ranchers from a cascading tax. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4535

The benefits to the agricultural industry will increase paying right now. This value, this initiative, helps sup- beyond those numbers when that embedded provincial port many of the initiatives that we're working on in sales tax is removed from the cost of farm equipment the agriculture sector, to diversify, to build value, to add that they purchase. It's charged multiple times during value to primary products. The farmer who builds a barn production, a cost that is passed on to consumers. HST for $2 million will now be able to claim $140,000 in PST will eliminate $2 billion in embedded provincial sales tax input tax credits that he would have been paying today. costs, and these savings will be passed on to consumers. A greenhouse grower with a million dollars in costs for We want to make sure that our grandchildren can a new greenhouse will have the potential savings of over enjoy B.C. food products and that we continue to build $70,000 in input tax credits. on the farming and food systems that we have here in the province. That starts with making sure that farming, [L. Reid in the chair.] ranching and processing operations in this province are able to remain financially viable. This initiative will put B.C. farmers on a more level Farmers will continue to pay no tax on the majority playing field with farmers in other provinces that have of inputs purchased, such as feed, seed, fertilizer, certain harmonized sales tax and in the 130 countries, including farm equipment and machinery, but not all. Zero-rated 29 in the OECD countries, that have a value-added tax for GST means zero-rated for HST. and that these farmers compete directly with. Ontario, Farmers and ranchers will be able to claim input tax Quebec and the three Maritime provinces represent ap- credits on many items currently taxable under the prov- proximately 70 percent of the Canadian economy. The incial sales tax system, such as farm trucks, computers, HST means that B.C. will be on a more even tax footing freezers, pesticide storage systems, office supplies and within Canada and that investment dollars and jobs are other equipment. not lost to other jurisdictions. If a food processor needs a consumable item to create There are some other keys to the future of the agri- their product such as a meat slicer or simply the elec- culture industry that this initiative will significantly tricity to run it, they will be able to claim the input tax enhance and benefit. I talked about diversification and credit. value-added activity, farm-gate stands and direct farm One of the things that we've been working on, and marketing. Now we can claim the input tax credits on one of the key policy areas for the agriculture industry, things like advertising, equipment that is needed in add- is to diversify, to create added value in their operations. ing that value to primary products — the cooler unit, As we work with farm organizations, looking at those display cases, packaging, advertising — all of those kinds kinds of initiatives, a harmonized sales tax approach will of things that help support building value-added activ- add much value to those kinds of initiatives. ity and diversification on farm operations, even building When you look at a farmer who wants to create a capacity for local slaughter and processing operations, farm market stand to be able to market directly to the mobile abattoirs. consumer from his operation, taking advantage of the One of the things that we're working on in regions of growing support for local food production, that farmer the province is building mobile abattoirs to help build will be able to claim all the PST input tax credits, what capacity for local slaughter and processing. I had the would have been provincial sales tax previously and great opportunity to do the ribbon cutting on a mobile now under the harmonized sales tax system, under an abattoir up in Quesnel. input tax credit for the construction of that farm mar- I know we're also working very actively on an initia- ket stand… tive in the Okanagan, on a mobile abattoir. All of the manufacturing costs, equipment costs and everything Deputy Speaker: Minister, I would just like to remind for building those mobile abattoirs and getting them you that we're about the amendment. started — we'll be able to claim the input tax credits, significantly reducing the cost of building that capacity, Hon. S. Thomson: Thank you. building that value for the industry and building those …or the canning equipment or the processing equip- facilities that help support the industry. ment or the kitchen equipment as they work to add We're also working on alternate energy opportunities value to their primary products. for the agriculture industry, converting waste to energy, This initiative, and this is the reason why I'm stand- which is seen as one of the future economic opportun- ing to oppose the amendment, needs to move forward ities for the industry to help add value to their operations, to provide that value to producers at this very important to help contribute to the economic viability of their oper- time as quickly as we can. ations and to benefit the environment by being able to [1100] utilize waste in other streams of alternate energy. It's estimated that food processors, as I said, will save Things like anaerobic digesters, gasification systems up to $24 million in provincial sales taxes that they are for poultry waste — feasibility work is being done on 4536 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

those. We're also looking at opening the first anaerobic fuelling stations; spill containment; chemical storage digester on farm in the near future. systems; spray chemical filling stations. All of that is significant capital investment on the part All of these farm inputs — which are required by these of producers, and they'll be able to claim the input tax operations to meet the current high demands of food credits on the PST that they would have paid on that safety and consumer demands and to allow them access investment. They'll be able to claim the full harmon- to international markets, to meet the certification re- ized sales tax input tax credits, significantly reducing quirements into Europe — demand capital investments the cost, again, of implementing those systems on farm. and costs invested in their operation, which they'll now That contributes to the longer-term goals of greenhouse be able to claim the full input tax credits on. gas reduction and creating further economic opportun- The HST is going to be a more simple system for farm- ities for producers. ers and processors, and it's going to save them money. I want to talk about one specific operation in my rid- TheR anching Task Force is in full support of the harmon- ing that really does demonstrate where the value is of a ization of provincial and federal tax. We know that the harmonized sales tax approach to the industry. This is livestock industry has faced and continues to face signifi- a very large cherry operation in my riding in Kelowna. cant challenges. The HST is one piece of the response as This operation is very diversified and has export sales we work on a comprehensive response to that report. internationally, selling to many countries in the world. It was very interesting, when we went through the It has sales to western Canada. It has local sales at the estimates process for the budget of the Ministry of farm gate during the season. It has a U-pick operation Agriculture and Lands, with the questions and com- that goes along with it. ments from the member for Cariboo North…. He asked [1105] during the estimates process: "How can we help farmers This operation has invested in new varieties that have and ranchers understand it?" That was referring to the been developed at our Summerland research station, harmonized sales tax. He said: "Most of these operations at the Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre, bringing in fly by the seat of their pants." some of the new varieties of cherries — the later-season, I'm not really sure that that's how ranchers and farm- split-resistant varieties, the Staccato and Sweethearts ers would want themselves to be portrayed. But to me, and Lapins — that are very, very important new var- this sounds like someone who recognizes and under- ieties for the cherry industry. This operation employs stands and agrees that the harmonized sales tax provides a very significant amount of people, both full-time and those benefits to farmers and ranchers in his riding and seasonal. wants to make sure that we get that information out to Last year cherry returns were impacted by…. The ranchers and farmers and that we communicate it to international market dropped by over 40 percent com- them so that they fully understand and can take advan- pared to previous years in terms of returns, really tage of those benefits. challenging the industry. This operation will benefit The questioning was certainly not along the lines of significantly from the harmonized sales tax approach, saying that this isn't a benefit for the ranching and farm- because there are many, many farm inputs that this ing industry in his riding and throughout the province. operation is required to have that aren't currently cov- It's recognized that this is a significant benefit for the ered by PST exemptions and that are not eligible for the agriculture industry in B.C., and I support it because I input tax credits. want to see agriculture operators able to afford to keep This operation also has to meet certain standards be- producing amazing B.C. food for this generation and cause they're in the international market. They're called the ones to come. Euro-GAAP standards, which they have to meet. That This is part of the policy that will ensure that we are requires very, very high standards of food safety on the able to do that. It's not the only piece that we need to processing side and packing side of their operation — put in place to make sure that we can do that, but it's a things like hydro coolers, which they need to be able to very, very important one and an important part of the access the market, where they have to get the cherries response that we need, to make sure that the agriculture immediately out of the field and cooled down quickly so industry and the food-processing industry stay strong that they can make them available for the international in this province in the future. market; safety equipment to meet WCB requirements; You may have heard that HST will hurt small business. bird control systems, and a whole range…. HST will be good for business. It will replace the hidden This operation is using very innovative methods of sales tax, and small businesses will get additional tax cuts. controlling birds using falconry and other things like Currently PST is applied at every step in the creation of the that that attract PST costs and that they'll now be able product. The multiple PST charges are embedded in the to claim input tax credits on. Food safety requirements price you pay at the store, even though you can't see them, are demanded by the regulatory agencies; portable sani- and of course, you pay PST on the final purchase price. tation — hand-washing facilities, cleaning equipment; [1110] Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4537

Under the HST system, most of those embedded costs government. We have been calling for harmonization for several are removed, and savings can be passed on to the con- years, and there's no better time than now to take this important step." sumer. It will increase capital investment and jobs and Organization after organization, representing all incomes, and it will continue to lead us to being one of those workers and all those people, including the B.C. the most competitive economies in Canada. Agriculture Council and all the farmers and ranchers Let's look at some of the key conclusions of the Mintz and their employees in the province, understand the report, often noted in the Legislature. HST will reduce positive benefits of this measure. the marginal effective tax rate on capital investment from 25 percent in 2009 to just over 11 percent in 2010 It builds on tax relief that has been brought into place and under 10 percent within the next eight years. since 2001: a 44 percent reduction in small business and corporate tax; a 39 percent reduction in general corpor- Deputy Speaker: Minister. May I remind all mem- ate income tax; a 37 percent average personal income bers that we're speaking to the amendment to Bill 9. tax cut, eliminating provincial income taxes for an addi- tional 325,000 low-income earners. B.C. now has the Hon. S. Thomson: Okay. Thank you, Madam lowest personal income tax rate for anyone earning up Speaker. to $118,000. In making the comments, in opposing the amend- When I decided to run as a new MLA in the riding ment to Bill 9 and making the arguments of why we of Kelowna-Mission, I decided to run because I wanted need to oppose it and to continue to move forward in to run on a platform that focused on the economy and I implementation of the harmonized sales tax as quickly wanted to contribute to the future of the agriculture and as we can…. That's why I'm standing to oppose the food industry in British Columbia and to the economic amendment to the bill and the amendment that's been future of our region and the province. proposed. It's my view that we need to continue the I know that there are very, very significant concerns debate on implementation and to move forward to im- being expressed about the harmonized sales tax, and plement this because of the significant value that this I'm certainly hearing those in our constituency office. has for the economy of British Columbia. We're currently dealing with them and responding to all The effective tax rate on new investment will decline of them. We continue to meet with constituents, con- from 29½ percent in 2009 to 18 percent in 2018. This tinue to respond, and we'll continue to work diligently will encourage capital investment of $11½ billion and through our office to provide factual information, to 113,000 new jobs before the end of the decade. It's the discuss concerns and to listen to the concerns that are small businesses in British Columbia that are the job being brought forward by the constituents. creators, and that is what harmonization is about: cre- I've been actively engaged in that process. What it is ating an economic climate and a foundation for growth teaching me is that these are very, very important de- and job creation. cisions, difficult decisions. I'm learning quickly that It is these businesses that employ over one million making the correct longer-term decisions is not easy people. That's over one million jobs inB ritish Columbia politically, but I am confident that this is the right deci- supporting families and providing revenue that will sup- sion for the future of our province. port health care, education and social services. [1115] That's why the B.C. Chamber of Commerce supports The Okanagan has benefited from the strong econ- this initiative. "The measures save business money and omy and the foundation and framework that have been reduce government expenditures while providing pro- put in place. We have investments in infrastructure, in tection for those on low income. In addition to these transportation — the Bennett Bridge, Highway 97 — in- savings, the consumer will also be the winner, as busi- vestments in transit. ness will pass on savings…such as the $150 million We have significant investments in our health care annually in compliance costs." That's from the B.C. facilities at Kelowna General Hospital, Vernon Jubilee Chamber of Commerce. Hospital, the new cardiac care centre; in UBC Okanagan That's why theR etail Council of Canada supports this at Okanagan College; in supportive housing units. measure. "Harmonization will result in a simpler and Billions of dollars in investment were made possible by more efficient tax system for businesses. This will help strong economic leadership. smaller retailers in particular. They find administering Strong economic leadership is continuing with the two separate systems difficult and costly." decision for the harmonization of GST and PST, the That is why the Chartered Accountants of B.C. sup- correct policy. It's challenging politics locally, but it is a port this measure. They have said: decision that I will be pleased to support when the op- "Harmonization will reduce compliance costs for business, save portunity comes. consumers money, maintain the province's competitive position within Canada, reduce barriers to doing business interprovin- Thank you very much for the opportunity to provide cially, improve productivity and reduce administrative costs for my comments. 4538 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

N. Macdonald: I've already spoken in the second think people are looking for that opportunity. The con- reading debate on Bill 9, which is the HST bill. This text for the HST proposal needs to sit with other B.C. speech is going to be focusing on an amendment that Liberal election promises. was put forward by the NDP House Leader yesterday [1120] afternoon. The motion refers this HST bill to a commit- As we see the health system dismantled in many places, tee of MLAs, and it asks, then, that these MLAs, made we think back to the B.C. Liberal promise that they were up of a mix of members from the House, go out and con- going to strengthen health care. It hasn't happened. sult with British Columbians. There is a crisis in education, and everybody sees To me, it should be self-evident that the people of that day after day in their own community. Yet this is British Columbia who we represent want to be heard a government that came to power promising to protect on this issue. That should be completely self-evident education. Clearly, that hasn't happened. to anybody who is here, anybody who's in British This is also a government whose leader, the leader of Columbia. the B.C. Liberals, promised that the deficit would be In the time that I have available to me, I want to speak $495 million — I think that's what it was — guaranteed on two points that reinforce that idea that the amend- it, maximum. Yet he knew and the Finance Minister ment speaks to, which is the idea that we go and have the knew that was in no way an accurate number. It came in conversation with British Columbians. The two points at eight times that amount — eight times. that I want to focus on are around democracy and So the public has every right to be cynical about the around tax fairness — social equity and how tax policy idea that this government was not planning to introduce impacts on that. the HST. I think it's pretty clear that it was on the radar. Let's maybe start, then, with the democracy piece. It Now, there are many members here that probably has been said many times, not just in this House but didn't know about it. We know how this government since this initiative was announced last summer, that works. A bit of a one-man show, or maybe two, and the one of the fundamental flaws with the initiative is that it rest are asked to just follow along and do exactly what comes without a mandate. the Premier says, even if, to the wider public, it repre- However MLAs on the B.C. Liberal side want to frame sents electoral malfeasance. it, the facts are very clear. There was an election prom- Having committee hearings gives people the oppor- ise by the B.C. Liberals around the harmonized sales tax. tunity to come to a committee, to speak to MLAs of both It was specific. It was written. It was unequivocal. The parties and to express their concerns. I think that since B.C. Liberals were elected on a promise to not introduce we have gotten to this place without any democratic the HST, and that should mean something. That should mandate, that is the very least you would do to show mean something. some level of respect for the wider public. What we know now — this is just in recent weeks — I think you would also look perhaps to see if the B.C. and what the public has come to know is that within Liberals — with all of the tools that they have in place, three days of that election the HST negotiations began. all the government resources they put towards their in- There have been different explanations from the govern- formation services — have been able to convince in any ment about what initiated that, but for a public that looks way the wider public. You could look to that and say that at that and sees that, it creates very quickly — I mean, it maybe there is a case to proceed. But no member in this was already there, but it creates — the impression that House thinks that's the case. the public was fooled by the B.C. Liberals and that that Everybody knows that the public has not been con- was intentionally done. So there is a strong public senti- vinced over the past number of months by any of the ment already around the imposition of this tax to begin arguments that the government has made. They've with, a strong sense that there is no mandate. tried a number of them. All of them have failed There's a strong sense that the B.C. Liberals made comprehensively. no attempt to get that mandate. They instead, having There was a poll done by Ipsos-Reid, and Ipsos-Reid achieved power three days after getting elected, moved has been pretty accurate on a number of the things that to implement a piece of tax policy that they know does they've polled on. This was in August 2009, in the mid- not have the support of the vast number of British dle of the summer, shortly after the government finally Columbians, and it is vast. This is not even close in announced that it was going to proceed with the HST. terms of where the public sits on this issue. Just 2 percent of British Columbians strongly agree That lack of trust is reinforced by other promises that with the government's position on the HST — one in the B.C. Liberals made. I think this is important, and 50. it's why we as elected officials need to really think about Now, after months and months of effort from the the connection between those of us who are elected to government to explain to the wider public about the represent people and the wider public. This amendment HST, we have another measure of public support. allows a discussion to take place with the public, and I Ipsos-Reid did another poll in December 2009, and it Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4539

had grown to 2 percent. It hadn't grown at all. There because one of the big issues in my area was the removal has been no growth in support for the government's of local control on IPPs. arguments — absolutely none. It seems to me that it The point I made, and continue to make, was that the makes complete sense that you would go to a commit- wisdom actually sits here. When I think back to that tee, that you would meet with the people that you've time in Invermere, there was a woman sitting on one been elected to represent and have a discussion around side who had had a serious injury. She was recovering why that's the case. from that, running a business and was on the Invermere I want to be careful here about characterizing the 2 District Council — a very capable person. Beside her, a percent that are supporting this, because I don't want to gold-medal winner in Olympics. Beside her, a gentle- disregard their opinion in any way. We've had the op- man who was the first to climb each of the highest peaks portunity to hear from some of the speakers on the other in each continent in the world, the first to do that, Pat side, who speak quite eloquently. I just listened to the Morrow. Beside that person, another who ran a success- Minister of Agriculture and Lands. I did not discount ful business. his opinion at all. I thought he brought up a number of I could see each one of them. The idea that comes good facts. It was a good speech. through sometimes in some of the comments that Whenever I hear the professor, the Harvard-educated other MLAs have made here on the government side member for West Vancouver–Capilano, I cannot lis- that somehow that this is a gathering of the brightest ten to him, on these issues especially, without treating minds…. That's not what we are. We are a representative them with respect, and I do. The member for Shuswap group here to represent the views and interests of people — again, a very good speech. who elected us. We're not a technocracy. We're a demo- We've had the opportunity…. We've met with Jock cracy, which means that if we have a good idea, we have Finlayson. You hear the gentleman. He has a different to convince people that it is a good idea. If you haven't world view on many things but is clearly an eminent done that, then you have not done your job. person with a point of view you want to respect. To date B.C. Liberals have convinced hardly anyone [1125] that this is the direction to go — hardly a soul. That But there is still an onus on legislators to listen to what has to mean something. This amendment gives you the wider public says. It is impossible to me that any the opportunity. If there is a case to be made, it should member of this House represents an area where the vast have been made before the election took place. Failing majority — even a small majority, even a small number that, get out, meet with people, understand their con- of people — think that the HST is the way to go. In a cerns, and answer their questions. A pamphlet won't democratic system that has to mean something. do it. I think most people recognize that over the past Now the government is talking about — what? — year economists have not been batting perfect in terms hundreds of thousands of dollars they're going to spend of what they say the economy is going to do. It's not a on a pamphlet. How is that going to be received? You perfect record. And besides that, we don't live in a tech- won't go and listen to people, but you're going to pre- nocracy. We live in a democracy, which means that the pare a pamphlet. This government is going to prepare a views of the wider public have to mean something. pamphlet and try to sell the idea of the HST. That's why we have elections. That's why we are all Well, good luck. Good luck on that. What another here. That's the process that gives the Premier and his waste of public funds to do that. Hundreds of thousands cabinet power. To disrespect that, to not enter into a are going to be spent. meaningful dialogue with the people that we represent, To show disdain for the 85 percent of people who are is fundamentally wrong. There is not a member here against the HST is fundamentally wrong. It's fundamen- that doesn't know that. It's fundamentally wrong. tally undemocratic. So that's one piece. All that this amendment does is gives the opportunity [1130] for legislators to go out and have that discussion. What The other piece that is quite interesting is how people could possibly be wrong with that? I know that for me have chosen to react to this. People are agitated in an and for the people that I sit with on this side…. I know unprecedented way. that I'm a democrat. I know that…. Well, I believe that The initiative act is a very difficult tool. Bill Vander wisdom sits with the people that we represent. I know Zalm — I mean, really no organization. There's a gentle- that to be true. Our job as elected officials is to provide man who stands up when most think that it would be information that's accurate and to listen and to take that impossible. Imagine the guts to stand up and start this. wisdom and put it into public policy here, to be conduits He really has no organization. I don't know if he's come of that wisdom. to your…. Well, he's come to everyone's area. He has no During the election I sat in Invermere. In Invermere organization. Yet people are flocking in, trying to form we were having a public hearing, and somehow the ques- an organization around him. It's a very interesting pro- tion came up around where decisions should be made, cess, and I give him full credit. 4540 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

There was a friend of mine, Lillian, who phoned to the argument that the minister is actually making — see if he would help out. It is that grass-roots. Yet it has that this was a decision made over a water cooler. That's every chance of sending the strongest signal possible on the best case, that we would believe this. So to stand up this issue. and say that members on the government side somehow You have in Peace River North 25 percent of registered know better than these business people, than the people voters already. You hear in the media that 12 ridings al- who are going to be impacted, is just inaccurate. It's not ready have reached 10 percent. Now, whether it will be the case. a success or not, I don't know, but that says a lot about [1135] where people are on this issue. Very often the minister will stand up and talk about In Cranbrook, just south of Kimberley, 700 people forestry and say that this is going to create jobs be- signed up on the petition in one gathering. It's signifi- cause of a $140 million tax cut. Even if I accept the cant. That does not happen every day. I was out with a government's figures, let's just think this through for gentleman in Kimberley, and he was signing up people. a while, because that is the argument people stand up He asked about 150. About 20 of them were Albertans and make. Many members on the government side and couldn't sign; 130 did. So out of 150, 130 signed. don't understand some of the facts that they stand up They waited in line to sign. to repeat. What they were saying was…. For some, it was just I mean, let's be clear. The forest industry does not pay reactive to taxation. An awful lot just felt betrayed by PST already on an awfully large number of items. That the process, betrayed by a government that ran on one was introduced in around 2002 or 2003, early in the B.C. promise and then, days later, turned and did something Liberals' first mandate. That was to save forestry about dramatically different. I think what all members here $110 million a year. know is that there is deep, deep disappointment in the There were also cuts to the corporate tax. More- re direction that the government has gone and in the con- cently there's been a 50 percent cut in school tax that tempt for the democratic process that they see. They're provides $50 million per year. right on that. It is a complete contempt for the demo- Has the impact of those tax cuts been studied by this cratic process that put them here. government? We asked directly. They have not been. So The HST is an initiative that lacks a mandate. People you hand over $160 million a year in tax benefits, and know it; they also know that it doesn't make sense. The you don't study it. Sheer incompetence. Then you stand region that I represent is not dissimilar to Peace River up and make the argument that an additional $140 mil- North in that we're a border community or a series of lion is going to somehow create jobs. border communities. Even Revelstoke, which is maybe Let's look at the record from the first tax cuts, because an hour and a half into British Columbia has a tremen- dous amount of business with Albertans. It's important. since those tax cuts were made, 30,000 forestry jobs So the contrast for people in these sorts of border re- have been lost. Have any jobs been created? So 30,000 gions is pretty profound. jobs lost and 71 mills shut down. They know their business. We have a lot in tourism, a There may be an argument to be made around tax lot in the restaurant industry. So when Panorama ski re- cuts leading to more jobs, but before you make that sort writes on this topic, they know what they're talking argument, you'd better study it. You'd better have some about. They profoundly know the impact on their business. facts. None of that exists. Instead, the minister stands They have been clear on it, as has Revelstoke Mountain up, and for some reason, what didn't work before is now Resort, as has Kicking Horse Resort, as has Resort of the going to work. That is purely ideological at best, but it Canadian Rockies in Kimberley. They know it will dam- certainly smacks of incompetence. Who would do that? age their business. They know they are competing with Who would make a $140 million investment per year jurisdictions that don't have the additional 7 percent, and without studying? they know where their client base comes from. You know, other people understand, as well, that You're hearing the same thing from restaurants, the $2 billion that is cut from industry has to be paid people who understand their business completely. by someone. The people who are going to pay are often Gerry's Gelati. He wrote a letter. I think I've quoted from people who are already challenged in their lives. In the it in the past. He knows exactly where his money comes past nine years there has been one tax measure after from and where it goes. And he has laid it out. You hear another after another from this government that has person after person saying that, expecting that elected inordinately benefited the wealthy and has dispropor- officials are going to listen and do something about it tionately punished those on fixed incomes. — not tell them that they somehow know better, that It is absolutely true, and the facts speak for they've thought it through. themselves. Let's be clear on this issue of the HST. The best-case scenario for this government is incompetence. That is Interjection. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4541

N. Macdonald: Now we have the member for ite are confused about the list of items that are going to Kamloops–North Thompson who wants to speak.H ere's cost more. somebody who would not have been elected if the truth An interesting exercise for people is to actually google on the HST had been in front of the people of British B.C. Liberals and the HST list. Google it as interesting Columbia. That's true. The member knows it. reading. I did look for the list on the government site — didn't see it. I know that we're going to spend hundreds Deputy Speaker: Member, I'll draw you back to con- of thousands — apparently, the government thinks it's sideration of the amendment. appropriate to spend hundreds of thousands — on a pamphlet to people, and I've heard members on the op- N. Macdonald: The amendment allows us to speak posite side stand up and say, "Well, we have to give them with the public. It allows us to have that discussion, which the facts," as if the facts are somehow something that the we should have had before the election. Conveniently public doesn't have. for some, we didn't, and they're here — inconveniently for the people that he represents. Interjection. There's no question, though, that the B.C. Liberal tax policy has disproportionately benefited the wealthy. N. Macdonald: The public has facts. I'll tell you That's a discussion that I think, if you actually met the fact that they're most aware of. The member for with people in communities, they would tell you. B.C. Kamloops–North Thompson is questioning the capabil- Liberals' fees and cuts to services have disproportion- ity of the wider public to actually understand facts, but ately hurt lower- and middle-class people. The facts here's a fact. There was a written promise not to intro- speak for themselves. duce the HST. The member ran for that. Three days B.C. did not have the highest rate of child poverty after the election, the government changed its mind and until this B.C. Liberal government came into power. For introduced the HST. So maybe the member can have the past six years, there it is — the past six years. The a discussion. Maybe you can meet with the public and gap between the rich and poor has grown year after year. have the discussion. You have clear policy decisions leading to predictable re- Oh, and here's the Minister of State for Mining. The sults. Those are things that I think the public has a clear Minister of State for Mining wants to have a discussion. view on. Here's the minister of state who stood up and talked [1140] about the PST impact on forestry. Unbeknownst to him, In any discussion on tax policy, people intuitively they don't actually pay PST, so you don't even have the understand their own interests, and they intuitively facts right on your own side, yet you stand up and criti- understand that taxes pay for good things. They know cize the wider public with a degree of contempt that is they pay for schools. They know they pay for roads and kind of shocking, but it's a contempt that we've become parks. They protect us from crippling health bills. They used to from this side — complete contempt for the know that taxes provide health facilities so that when we democratic process. need them, they're there. People know that. They know that they have to pay taxes, but they want Interjection. a tax system that is balanced and fair. That's not an ideo- logical discussion. That's one of common sense that the Deputy Speaker: Member. Member. people can participate in. They know that they have to pay taxes. They want a balance. They want people to N. Macdonald: That is your legacy, sir. That is your meet them face to face, be honest about what's going on legacy: complete contempt. and have that discussion. They know that taxes give us social stability. They Interjections. know that. They know, as well, that tax policy is, above all else, a democratic process that they should be in- Deputy Speaker: Member, you will address your re- volved in. But where have the public been involved? marks through the Chair. They're struggling to be involved. They're trying to use the initiative act. They are phoning MLAs of both sides N. Macdonald: Absolutely. and trying to get them to represent them, but somehow B.C. Liberal members feel that they can ignore that, that Hon. R. Hawes: Be factual. The HST wasn't intro- somehow they know better than the wider public about duced three days after the election. tax policy and the impacts. I see no sign of that. I know for sure that the wider public sees this as an N. Macdonald: The minister of state wants facts. unfair tax. They see this as a deception. People are right. Here's a fact. The minister of state was elected on a People are right to think that. Even the members oppos- promise not to introduce the HST, but here he sits do- 4542 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

ing exactly that. Three days after the election. Three days ent ways. At first, I'd like to talk about the two different after the election, it all changes. It all changes. visions for this province that this debate seems to high- light. In some ways it's representative of the many Interjections. differences between government and opposition. Then I'd like to talk about credibility. I'd like to talk about con- N. Macdonald: Can the minister tell us? No. fidence and then about HST facts and why this needs to Hopeless. proceed now and not be referred. I would like to close with some real-life examples, but first to the vision. Interjections. During this debate and others I have watched to see the alternate visions that government and opposition Deputy Speaker: Members. Members. You will come have for this province. This government talks about the to order. vision for a future and what it will look like — a grow- ing economy. N. Macdonald: Let's see what an additional 7 percent That's what this tax and this motion are addressing: will be added to. Let's have a look at this. Let's see what jobs for families; capitalizing on our strategic location as the 7 percent is going to be added to. Canada's Pacific gateway; clean energy leadership, and a [1145] leader in climate action; assisting and supporting fam- Maybe the Minister of State for Mining can enlighten ilies with children; modernizing our education system; us, because he's so great at enlightening people, you opportunities for early learning; innovation and health know. He knows all the facts. He hasn't got them quite care to ensure sustainability of our health care system straight when he stands up to speak, but he's excellent. and expanding patient choices; and working with part- I googled B.C. Liberals and HST, and I got…. I mean, ners to create a better British Columbia. there are a number of websites. Here's one: www.bclib- These words are crafted to paint a picture of the type eraltaxgrab.ca. I don't know if it's the officialL iberal site. of province this government is striving to create. You I don't know, but maybe the minister can tell us. can evaluate these words and compare and contrast We'll do a little test. What are the things that are going them to what the opposition has to say about the kind of to cost 7 percent more? The minister can just give a little province they want to create. To that I say, "Good luck," check. Restaurant meals? Check, yeah. Hockey tick- because the only words you have to compare are words ets? Yeah. Hair cuts? Check, 7 percent. Movies? Check. that oppose our plans. They do not seem to have any Magazines, it says here? I don't know. Check? Check. plans of their own. They don't have a plan for anything. Taxi fares? Check. Golf fees? Check. Skiing? Check, 7 They just have a vision for more money. They want more percent more. Massage therapy? Check. Parking? Yes, 7 money. They want more of your money. percent more. Fast food? Yeah, 7 percent more. Repair This legislation before us allows new tax measures, and and maintenance? Yeah, 7 percent more. the referral wants to put it all off. We want to make sure It's a long list. We'll get to it next time. Thank you very our economy is competitive so that we can feel secure much for the opportunity. in our jobs and our children can have a strong future in this province. Let's contrast that to the vision of the op- R. Howard: I rise today to speak in opposition to this position, which is to take us back to the '90s. referral motion, the referral motion to this very import- [1150] ant and, I think, historic piece of legislation, Bill 9, the I remember then the brain drain, higher taxes and Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act. regulations — regulations that had grown to such a level I would first like to thank the good citizens of that jobs were lost and we had people leaving this prov- Richmond Centre who have bestowed upon me this ince because they could not find work. They couldn't great honour. It's a remarkable opportunity to represent find a job. They felt uncertain about the future of this them in this Legislature. I am truly humbled every day province. and honoured to serve my constituents. Just imagine. With all of our natural resources, our The member just before me, for Columbia River– super, natural beauty and our diversified human capital, Revelstoke, spoke and said: "What's to gain from moving we were a have-not province in the '90s. People were forward?" I would like to say that certainty is to be gained leaving to find work elsewhere, leaving because there from moving forward. The last thing we need to do is were no jobs here. Our socialist friends, the NDP gov- create continued uncertainty, refer this back to a com- ernment, were having to ask the federal government for mittee, have the investors ask, "Are we going to proceed, payments. There's a comparison for you. or are we not?" and watch Ontario reap the benefits of Contrast that have-not province with this Olympic swift action. province. What a difference a few decades and a new I want to talk today on a number of topics that tie government make. It's a government that has a vision back to Bill 9 and this current motion to refer in differ- versus an NDP government that dug itself such a deep Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4543

hole in the '90s that people had lost hope and were Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 leaving the province, seeking jobs elsewhere, seeking this afternoon. prosperity elsewhere. Our government recently had to make some tough The House adjourned at 11:54 a.m. decisions as a result of the worldwide economic melt- down. The evidence is accruing suggesting that we will emerge from the worst economic climate in generations PROCEEDINGS IN THE even stronger than before, in even better shape than DOUGLAS FIR ROOM most if not all other jurisdictions on the continent and perhaps even the world. Committee of Supply

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTHY LIVING AND SPORT TheH ST is a fundamental part of this strength, and it (continued) needs to proceed now. It does not need to be referred. It will make our economy more competitive. Our invest- The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. ment tax structure will be lower than most provinces Bloy in the chair. and competing countries. This will have strong, positive results, and we need to start it now. The committee met at 10:07 a.m. These increased investments create jobs — jobs for us; jobs for our children and our families; and, looking fur- On Vote 38: ministry operations, $52,103,000 (con- ther into the future, jobs for our grandchildren; jobs that tinued). will provide a measure of wealth and security for fam- ilies and future generations. It is not just us saying this. K. Corrigan: We finished off yesterday with a com- There is a huge and growing list of major economists, mitment from the minister of state that within two business groups and think tanks who are saying the weeks or so, give or take a day or two, the hosting report same thing — the Fraser Institute, the Canadian Centre will be available which will talk about all the tickets and for Policy Alternatives and the Conference Board of all the hosting that has been provided by government Canada, to name just a few. They agree that a harmon- and, therefore, taxpayers' dollars. ized sales tax will protect and create jobs, so we need to I just want to confirm — I think this was implicit in get on with this legislation. the statements made — that this report will be released I must also say that I sought election to play a part to the public in its entirety? in ensuring that this province plays a leadership role in sustainable practices. This tax is about a sustainable tax Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it will. policy and, as a result, a sustainable economy, sustain- able jobs, sustainable prosperity. I have sought to be part K. Corrigan: I also want to confirm that this host- of a government because I believe that it had the courage ing report will include all tickets and hosting activities to do the right thing. This government has the courage undertaken by Crown corporations or other govern- to do the right things and to do them now. ment-controlled entities? As I said in my opening, if we sat back, referred, caused uncertainty, watched Ontario and the rest of the Hon. M. McNeil: No. It's just for the government's world progress, we would suffer for that. tickets, not the Crowns'. Note to the hour, I would move adjournment of de- bate and reserve my right to continue my remarks at the K. Corrigan: Those Crown corporations or other next sitting. government-controlled entities are spending taxpayers' money. I am wondering where the reporting is happening R. Howard moved adjournment of debate. on the tickets being spent by the Crown corporations. [1010] Motion approved. Hon. M. McNeil: No, the Crowns report to their own Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported boards and to other ministries. We will only be dealing resolution, was granted leave to sit again. with the tickets that OGS has purchased.

Hon. R. Hawes moved adjournment of the House. K. Corrigan: Does government have the ability to require that Crown corporations provide that kind of Motion approved. information to government? 4544 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Hon. M. McNeil: Apparently. I'm advised by staff that those. Their method of accountability is through their ministers can request information from Crowns, yes, annual reports and their service plans. but through to their own ministries. K. Corrigan: Is the minister saying that the Crowns K. Corrigan: Does the minister have any idea what- will all be reporting on their hosting activities, in- soever how many tickets were purchased by Crown cluding Olympic tickets, in their annual reporting corporations and will not be part of this report? structure? Is that built into the requirement, or is it just that that is the way they would report if they chose to Hon. M. McNeil: I'm advised that the Crowns have report that? already published what tickets they have purchased. Hon. M. McNeil: I cannot speak on behalf of the K. Corrigan: You know, I'm a little flabbergasted, to Crown corporations, but I do understand that they do be honest, that the government report about the tick- have a mechanism for reporting out. ets that were going to be purchased using taxpayers' money does not include this very significant compon- K. Corrigan: Okay, I'm going to just try to get an ex- ent. Frankly, I think that the public would consider ample here of why I'm concerned and why I think that that to be somewhat misleading, to have such an in- taxpayers would be concerned. It was reported in the complete picture. So I'm wondering if I can get a Tyee within the last few days that B.C. Hydro billed the commitment from this minister to provide me with ministry for a hotel room for a specific member, for one those reports. of the government ministers. I'm wondering where that My understanding is that this ministry is supposed to transaction is going to show up and what report that be the overall ministry coordinating and tracking gov- transaction, that payment, will show up in on behalf of ernment expenses. I think that the people of B.C. would government in reporting on the Olympics. expect that at the end of the day there's going to be transparency and accountability about the overall cost Hon. M. McNeil: That is not my ministry, and it of the games. would be up to them to speak on behalf of their own. I guess I'm seeking help from the minister about how it is that we can get this information without having to K. Corrigan: Okay, I'm going to go back to the go to each and every government entity and seeking it Crown corporations. I'm going to ask a question about a ourselves. specific organization. It's not a Crown, but it is govern- ment-controlled. If Partnerships B.C. were to purchase Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, I've been advised by staff that tickets or host an event or have some hosting activity some of these purchases of tickets were commercial around the Olympics, where would that be reported, if transactions and actually not a cost to the taxpayer, but again, it would go through their own boards of directors it's reported? to the other ministries. Hon. M. McNeil: It's my understanding that K. Corrigan: So every transaction that you have Partnerships B.C. is accountable to or is part of the within government…. I'm trying to get this straight. Ministry of Finance. I cannot speak to that. I'm here Sometimes it's a buying and a selling and there's a con- to speak to Minister of State for Olympics and ActNow tract. Why would a Crown which is spending money B.C. that ultimately comes from the taxpayers on Olympic [1020] tickets not be considered an expenditure of taxpayers' money just because they're bringing money in? K. Corrigan: I think what the minister of state is say- The government ofB ritish Columbia brings in money ing is that a percentage, a limited amount, of the tickets as well — it does it in a different way; it does it through that were purchased directly or indirectly with taxpayer taxes — but we all expect that the government is going dollars is going to be in an admittedly comprehensive to be accountable for the expenditures on the Olympics. report, for what it's worth. But when it comes to all I'm trying to understand why it would be any different those tickets — we don't know how many; thousands for the Crown corporations, and I think the taxpayers of — that were purchased by Crown corporations or other B.C., who support the Crowns, would expect the same government-controlled entities, we may or may not ever thing. have a report on that, and government does not feel it's [1015] government's responsibility to gather that information and provide it to the taxpayers. Hon. M. McNeil: The Crowns also have their own I just want to make sure it's clear that that's what the reporting requirements, and they'll be coming out with minister of state is saying. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4545

Hon. M. McNeil: Again, the Minister of State for the It's absolutely possible, I suggest, for government — Olympics and ActNow B.C. has committed to releasing which essentially controls the board, appoints the boards a report on the cost of the hosting activities and ticket- of the Crown corporations — to direct, strongly suggest ing allocations that the Olympic Games secretariat has or negotiate that significant costs of the Olympics are purchased. As I mentioned yesterday, we had committed buried in the Crown corporations. So I have a real con- to releasing this report in late spring, but it's anticipated cern about the fact that we don't know what the costs are that it'll be ready in a couple of weeks. associated with the Crown corporations. The Minister of State responsible for the Olympics K. Corrigan: I'll take it from that that the minister of has repeatedly talked about tracking costs of employee state is thereby confirming what I just said. loans, tickets and all of those other things. But is the I wanted to go back to an earlier statement that was minister of state saying that the minister of state has ab- made that all the Crown corporations have reported. solutely no control or responsibility to report on costs Maybe you could just clarify that. Where has that been that are in the Crown corporations? That really upsets reported? What tickets have been purchased by the me. Crown corporations, and will that reporting, whatever form that is in, include other hosting activities as well? Hon. M. McNeil: You know, I can't speak on behalf Or is it just strictly tickets that were purchased? of the Crown corporations, as I'm sure you can appre- ciate. But as an example, I know that B.C. Lotteries is Hon. M. McNeil: As I mentioned earlier, I can only re- a commercial Crown and not taxpayer-funded. What I port on those that we were responsible for. The Crowns can speak about is all of our costs, and that I've been have their own reporting requirements, and those very forthright on. questions will have to be addressed to those Crown corporations. K. Corrigan: Just sort of as a preliminary to some other questions that I'll be asking later, can I assume that K. Corrigan: I don't remember the exact words, but when I ask questions about, for example, the employee my understanding was that about five or ten minutes loan program, when I ask questions about the number of ago the minister of state said that the reports had already people seconded to working in the Olympics, and when been done on the Crown corporations. I ask questions about the employee volunteer program, that the answers I receive will not include any people Hon. M. McNeil: No. To clarify my remarks, I said who are working for the various Crown corporations or that the number of tickets that they had purchased and other government-controlled entities? the cost had already been reported out. Hon. M. McNeil: If they were not taxpayer-funded, K. Corrigan: Okay. So we're talking about tickets then no. as opposed to other hosting, then. I assume that's the difference. So the number of tickets that they had pur- K. Corrigan: I guess we get back, then, to what Crown chased was reported out. Where is that reported out? corporations are. What's becoming very clear to me is that the minister of state is saying that Crown corpora- Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it's my understanding that tions are not taxpayers' money. I'm not going to have these were published in the media last fall. There were time to go through that argument. I would argue that it media news releases published in the fall, and they con- is ultimately taxpayers' money that's involved there. tained those numbers. I'd like to just go back to what the minister said earlier — that government would have the ability to request that K. Corrigan: You know, the problem that the taxpay- information through various ministers, the ministers re- ers of this province face, then, is that if VANOC and the sponsible. I just want to clarify that that's what was said Olympics budgeting was in trouble as it was about a year earlier. ago — that was very clear from reading VANOC's third- quarter report and other media reports and general Hon. M. McNeil: The member would have to raise reporting — one way to try to correct that, to put it in those issues directly with the ministers responsible. the words of, perhaps, the way the media would frame it, [1030] would be to hide costs in the Crown corporations. If the people of B.C. cannot get at, and there is not a K. Corrigan: I understand that this would not ne- gathering of the information about how much of the costs cessarily be this ministry — that this information is not of the Olympics are in the Crown corporations, then we're being gathered by the Olympic secretariat or this min- not getting a true picture of the cost of the Olympics. istry, which I thought was the ministry responsible for [1025] tracking the costs of the Olympics. 4546 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

But is the minister of state, then, still of the belief that mentioned before, they will be published there and re- yes, we would have to ask those ministries but that those viewed by the Auditor General. ministries…? This is, I guess, drawing on your know- ledge or your staff's knowledge. Would those ministries K. Corrigan: Okay. I'd like to ask a specific example, have the ability to ask those Crowns for or require that then. Will the costs of the Olympic secretariat be in- those Crown corporations provide that information? cluded in that report? [1035] Hon. M. McNeil: It's my understanding that the ministers do have the ability to ask the Crowns for Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, they will be included in the information. public accounts.

K. Corrigan: I'd like to go on to more global ques- K. Corrigan: Included in the public accounts. That tioning about the costs of the Olympics, and reporting is reporting. It's not a report. I guess I'm wondering and transparency about the costs of the Olympics. whether or not the government and the ministry re- I'll just mention a recent report that was put out sponsible — it would be the minister, I would assume by the city of Vancouver, where it stated that the cost — plan to issue a report that gathers all the costs to the to Vancouver is $554 million to host the 2010 Winter provincial government, of the Olympics, in one place? Olympics. I certainly understand that that has nothing to do with the present ministry, but I'd like to read what Hon. M. McNeil: There will not be a separate report, Coun. Geoff Meggs said on being transparent with cost- but as I've said, all expenses will be published in the pub- ing. He said: lic accounts, and they will be reviewed by the Auditor "Some people will disagree with whether some of the projects General. were truly Olympic in nature, but the report serves a useful pur- pose in putting together in one place projects and services that K. Corrigan: I've been at this job for a little less than were in one way or another used by the games. Better to be more transparent than less. I think staff have gone an extra mile…to a year now. I've looked at the public accounts. I'm on the include everything that was expedited or has an Olympic dimen- Public Accounts Committee. Is the Minister of State as- sion to it." suring me that the average citizen will be able to take a I'm wondering if the minister of state, as the minister look at those books and have an understanding, without responsible for the Olympics, plans to produce a report any kind of special training, of what this government as fulsome and as complete as the city of Vancouver's re- spent on the Olympics? I mean, for example, will it be port on the Olympics, which included all sorts of capital all in one place in the books, and will it be line items in costs and operating costs associated with the Olympics. the books?

Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, I have seen the city of Hon. M. McNeil: The Office of the Auditor General Vancouver's report. It certainly is fulsome. I may dis- has committed to a separate report on Olympic costs as agree whether or not to include a swimming pool as a a part of their commitment. Winter Olympics cost, but having said that, all of our costs are going to be accounted for in the ministry K. Corrigan: You know, the government has repeat- budget and government's '09-10 fiscal plan. They'll be edly talked about the costs and benefits of having the fully published in the public accounts, and they're going Olympic Games. I would think that it would be for the to be reviewed by the Auditor General. benefit not only of the people of British Columbia to take a look at what the costs and benefits are but of the K. Corrigan: I'd like to clarify a couple things that government itself to have an understanding and to share the minister just said. You said "all the Olympic costs." with the public exactly what the costs versus the bene- Would those costs include other costs associated with fits were. the Olympics — for example, ones that we have gone I'm wondering why this government is not planning over in estimates in the fall and a number of items in on issuing a separate report or an easy-to-read report on addition to the $765 million, some of the ones that we all the costs that were associated with the Games. The went over? reason I ask this minister, of course, is because this is Also, maybe as an add-on to that, will the report the minister responsible for the Olympics. I would have from the minister include items such as the Sea to Sky thought that you can't do a cost-benefit analysis unless Highway? I could mention even the Canada Line, al- you understand what all the costs are in an easily iden- though I believe I know what the answer is on that one. tifiable way.

Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, all costs incurred by the gov- Hon. M. McNeil: As I mentioned previously, the ernment will appear in the public accounts, and as I've Office of the Auditor General has committed to a separ- Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4547

ate report, so there will be one on Olympic costs, and I from individual ministries. I'm happy to go into each think that's the report we need to see. and every ministry and ask for that information, but I'm just wondering if I can get a commitment that I will re- K. Corrigan: I'd like to move on to some questions ceive that, broken down by ministry as well. about the employee loan program. [1040] Hon. M. McNeil: I will certainly discuss this with When we were in estimates last fall, the minister of my colleague the minister responsible, the Minister state committed to providing information about the of Citizens' Services. What I can say and what we did employee loan program and also stated that the em- discuss when we announced this program back in the ployee loan program was being tracked by the ministry fall is that this would be no additional cost to the tax- through the secretariat and I think even made some payer and that no front-line services would be cut. I'm commitments in terms of providing some information pleased to say we did achieve that. In addition, we al- to me. I haven't seen any of that information. I think the lowed around 249 seconded employees to really gain a understanding was that we would get that information tremendous amount from such an incredible organiza- and that it would be tracked and, of course, that it would tional experience. be an ongoing process. Having not seen any of that information yet, I'm won- K. Corrigan: I've talked to a couple of those people, dering if I could receive a confirmation from the minister and they would certainly agree, some of them, that it of state that for the whole of government we will be get- was a wonderful experience. ting the information about the employee loan program [1045] — how many people were involved in the employee loan I'd just like to read from the estimates in October of program; how much; what their hours were; the amount 2009, wherein the minister said, with regard to the em- of time commitment there was; and in addition, what ployee loan program: "These are ongoing recruitments, the cost, including benefits, was associated with that. so we'll have to do periodic updates." I asked: "How We've been going through ministry by ministry and many provincial employees will receive additional time asking that question. Some of the ministers have been off to volunteer for the games?" She said: "The ministry very forthright and very helpful; some have been less of public service is tracking this number, and we can get so. I'm wondering if we could make it easier on all of it from them." us. I wouldn't even have to go to those ministries and I asked, "If that's being tracked, I'm wondering if we ask those questions if I could get a commitment that could also find out what the total expense of this- em we are going to get that very specific comprehensive re- ployee volunteer program is. In other words, what port, broken down by ministry, on the employee loan would have been the costs associated with that," and the program. minister responsible said: "Yes, when we're through the process, we will have those numbers." Hon. M. McNeil: You know, this was not only a I then went on to ask about the employee loan pro- hugely successful Olympics; it was also a very complex grams and whether or not that could be achieved as well, series of events. We are really proud to have supported and the minister also said that that information could be public service employees who wanted to contribute to provided, I do believe. I don't have that quote in front of this. From all stories that I've gotten back, they've had me, I must admit, but I will find it. wonderful experiences, as you can as you can appreciate. I was talking about the employee loan program when It just was a very successful initiative for the province. I asked those earlier questions. I'm simply asking for The voluntary secondment program between the B.C. the minister of state to provide the information that the public service and VANOC resulted in approximately minister has already committed to providing. 249 seconded employees from the B.C. public service and the Crown agencies. We are still finalizing. As you Hon. M. McNeil: As I've said, we've approximated the can appreciate, we want to be accurate with the informa- number at 249, which is about the estimate that we had tion. VANOC is still working very hard. It's only been back in the fall, and we are still finalizing the details with four weeks since the end of the games, if you will. They're VANOC as to actual numbers. Again, I repeat the approxi- working hard at finalizing the numbers. From what we mate 249, but I certainly will discuss with my colleague can tell right now, the number is approximately 249. what information we can give you further to that.

K. Corrigan: Will the minister be providing that in- K. Corrigan: I assume, when the minister of state formation that was committed to last fall? In other words, gives me a commitment in estimates that information will I be getting a report that says how many employees is going to be provided which hasn't been provided yet there are, what the costs of them were and the number — it's about six months later — that at some point the of hours associated with them? I have been getting that minister will provide that information. 4548 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

What it sounds like to me is that the minister is now Hon. M. McNeil: I don't see a problem with provid- backtracking. After having made a commitment to pro- ing that information. vide not only the hours, the number of people, periodic updates and the costs, I'm now told that you will discuss K. Corrigan: Just got a little off-the-wall question it with the minister. I'm seeking a commitment that I here that I'm just going to add in. It's nothing to do with will receive that information. what I've just been asking. I heard recently that a thou- sand tickets for the first round of the Canucks playoffs Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it's been six months since you — and this is just rumour — I believe for the first game, asked, but the event has just happened. I would hate to were given to VANOC as part of the agreement between put information out there before the actual facts. We VANOC and GM Place. have just completed a hugely complex event, the largest I know this has nothing to do directly with the min- the province has ever done, and I'm very pleased with ister, but I'm just wondering if the minister is aware of the incredible success, including the success of the em- this agreement and whether or not any of those tickets ployee loan program, which we've talked about. went to anybody in government — if, in fact, this ru- Our estimates back in October were very close to mour is true. what we're finding was the actual number, 249. Again, that's an approximation. At the end of the process, after Hon. M. McNeil: No, I have no knowledge of that — we finalize details with ANOCV and everything, I will interest, but no knowledge. commit to you that I will absolutely discuss this with my colleague to see the information that we can bring K. Corrigan: Actually, I've missed a little section. In forward. the previous section I was asking questions about the employee loan program, about the volunteer program. K. Corrigan: Well, you've answered the question, and The much larger piece, possibly, is…. I'm wondering if the ministry or government is tracking the number I'm going to assume that what it means is that either the of people and the amount of time that was spent by minister is going to give me the information that was people who are working in various ministries for the promised, committed to earlier and will follow that Olympics and whether or not that's being reported by commitment, or the minister, after discussing it with government. the minister, will not give me that information which was committed to earlier. We'll wait and see what hap- Hon. M. McNeil: Not to belabour the comment, but pens with that. you know, this was the biggest event ever hosted by this I sort of mixed together two different concepts here, province, in addition to being the most complex. It's a but I just would like to have confirmation. We talked huge, huge priority for the government — rightfully so about the employee loan program, but there also will be — and this was a major focus of government business. a similar process with regard to the volunteer program, These were government employees.I think, as we do, we which was a different program. Many ministries that focus on our priorities in the government, and I think I've gone to have separated the two, have given me the that's an important point to make. Again, there was no information for the two. net new cost, so I think that's also another important I believe the program was that they would be at the point to make. Olympics for two weeks, one week paid and one week as a volunteer. Can we get the cost to government associ- K. Corrigan: I would argue, and I think the taxpay- ated with that? ers would probably agree, that if you had a ministry or [1050] a government that was entirely devoted at the far ex- treme to spending time in preparing for the Olympics, Hon. M. McNeil: Again, I guess the one comment we would want to know how much time that was and I can make is that there were no net new costs to the what activities were not being done by the employees government, and that's an important point to make on when that was going on. this. These numbers are being tracked by the Ministry Surely the minister of state is not suggesting that all of Citizens' Services. As you can appreciate, we've just those employees that either were seconded to VANOC, completed this hugely complex event. Those numbers spent time working on the Olympics or were volunteer- are being tracked by that ministry. ing for a week do not spend their time in a valuable way when they're not working on the Olympics. K. Corrigan: Well, the minister of state in October [1055] also made a commitment that that information would also be provided to me. I'm just seeking a commitment Hon. M. McNeil: You know, as I've mentioned, gov- that that information will be provided to me. ernment mobilizes its resources to work on different Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4549

priorities from time to time. This is just how govern- some of my colleagues that are going to want to come in ment works. We are always looking for things that are of and ask a few questions towards, probably, about 11:30. priority. This was a huge opportunity for our province, as we know, and we'll benefit for decades. [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] I think that this is consistent with other priorities that government has from time to time. A specific example Given the time pressures that I have, I'm wondering if would be the Commonwealth Games. Again, that hap- I could get a commitment from the minister of state to pened at that time as well. provide some of the following information, not neces- sarily right now. K. Corrigan: My question, then, is: did government, I have been going into the various ministries and ask- through your ministry or other mechanism that you ing the minister, vis-à-vis this ministry, about the number might be aware of, attempt to keep track of how many of Olympic tickets that the minister had, whether or resources, including time spent by various ministry em- not the minister took any guests that were paid for by ployees, how much time and energy was put into the the taxpayers and whether there were any staff or other Olympics, so that the public can understand what that MLAs that the minister is aware of attending events with devotion of resources was? the minister. I'm not expecting, of course, that there'll be a full report on everybody else's activities, but I am in- Hon. M. McNeil: No, that's almost impossible to terested in what the minister attended, what the purpose track. I mean, we mobilize our resources and deploy was and any other expenses associated with this min- them as per the government's priorities. I think that's istry and minister with regard to hosting, so that would exactly what happened here, as it did in 1994 with the be hosting events. Commonwealth Games here in Victoria. I'm also interested in expenses incurred by this min- istry and minister with regard to things like tickets, K. Corrigan: Is the minister of state aware…? I ap- hotels, travel and other costs associated with the min- preciate that the minister of state was not here prior to istry. I don't necessarily need all that information today. May of 2009, as I wasn't, but in this ministry was there I'd be very pleased to have a report, you know, within a any analysis done of what resources would have to be specific time period, if that would be preferable. marshalled by government, including human resources, in order to put on the games? Hon. M. McNeil: Hon. Chair, welcome. Yes, on be- half of the province of British Columbia, I was honoured Hon. M. McNeil: The government put together the to be able to host the U.S. delegation at one event on Olympic Games secretariat for the coordination and February 27. That was the only one event thatI attended oversight role. All other ministries are expected to adapt as a host, using a ticket paid for by Olympic Games to government priorities from time to time. secretariat, and that was at the exhibition gala figure- You know, all requests for leave to volunteer at the skating event on the 27th of February. It was the U.S. games were subject to the home ministry DM's or desig- delegation. nate's approval, and they reserve the right to ensure that I'm actually really pleased to be able to say that we had local operation requirements are met during the games. the Secretary of Health for the U.S. delegation, Kathleen That process was in place. Sebelius, who I had heard about but then had the pleas- As I mentioned earlier, back in 1994 — I believe that ure of meeting. was in the NDP time — a similar process was used for I will say that the first thing she said to me is that she the Commonwealth Games here in Victoria — very suc- wanted to talk about ActNow B.C., which was great for cessfully, I might add, in both cases. me to hear. It was obviously someone that knew about one of our prime initiatives here for the government. We K. Corrigan: There was an analysis done. It sounds had an opportunity to discuss it during the event. We've like there was an analysis and that there would be re- since followed up with correspondence and are hoping quests. Is that information available to the public, about to have future meetings to continue this dialogue even what kind of resources would be necessary? I guess I'll further. leave it at that at this point. That was the only event I attended using one of the tickets purchased by the province. Hon. M. McNeil: That information is in the ministry service plans, as to what resources are required. K. Corrigan: There was some discussion going on [1100] over there, and I just wanted to find out if the minister of state had also heard that I was requesting informa- K. Corrigan: I want to go to some questions. I'm tion about hosting, if there was any other hosting or checking the time, and I know that I'm going to have items like hotels, meals, travel or other costs that were 4550 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

incurred by this ministry or minister related to the K. Corrigan: I have a couple of questions on a com- Olympics. If there is, I would appreciate getting that in- pletely different matter, various questions at this point. formation as well. I wanted to talk about the reporting requirements of VANOC. Hon. M. McNeil: I'm sure that the member oppos- When VANOC signed the multiparty agreement, ite is aware that I am actually doubly fortunate in that which included the province of British Columbia, it the hub and the heart of the Olympic Games were in committed that it would provide parties with quarterly my riding, which was great. I live within walking of B.C. financial updates and forecasts within 60 days after the Place, GM Place, Robson Square, all of those venues. So completion of each quarter of each fiscal year, with no there were no costs for me personally, because it was my exceptions. In May 2007 VANOC reiterated that pledge riding. I stayed in my own bed every night, which was of transparency, including the publication of quarterly lovely, thank you. financial reports. ANOCV 's last regular quarterly finan- cial report was for the period ending October 31, 2009. K. Corrigan: Yes, that was wonderful. I was just a I'm wondering: did the secretariat agree to amend or SkyTrain ride away, so it wasn't bad for me, either. I wasn't waive section 4.4 of the agreement, which requires these just talking about the minister's personal expenses. I was quarterly reports? If it didn't, when will we see the next wondering about ministry expenses, expenses incurred one? by staff or any hosting, and so on, that would include any meals, hotels, travel, tickets or other costs as well. Hon. M. McNeil: The last budget update, I've been [1105] advised, was in January of this year. It's my understand- ing that as their financial year ends on July 31, 2010, and Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, there were additional costs the fact that they've just done an incredible event and through the Olympic Games secretariat, and they are are still working at closing out everything, I don't an- all within the ministry budget and accounted for within ticipate hearing much until July 31, where it would be a that budget. completion of their activities. [1110] K. Corrigan: Well, can I find out what those costs were, then? Would the ministry be able to provide me K. Corrigan: The agreement did say every six months with that information? — no exceptions. So I just don't see an exception for dur- ing the Olympic period, and I appreciate that a huge Hon. M. McNeil: Yes. amount…. Okay, so the report that was produced in K. Corrigan: I didn't ask a very basic question. Which January of 2010. I'd just like confirmation. Does not that ministry paid for the government tickets? cover the period up to October 31, 2009?

Hon. M. McNeil: I think we discussed that yesterday, Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it does, but the budget update is but it was the Olympic Games secretariat. what we were talking about — every six months. January was the last one, and the next one will be July. K. Corrigan: So I assume this report that is going to be available within a couple of weeks will include all the K. Corrigan: So we will be getting a report in July — costs, then, that are associated with all those tickets for the end of July — or in the following October to cover all the different ministries — correct? the period to July?

Hon. M. McNeil: That is correct. Hon. M. McNeil: It's my understanding that we'll get it after the books close on July 31, 2010. K. Corrigan: I keep remembering little pieces that I want to tie up from previous sections. I just wanted to K. Corrigan: I don't want to be obtuse, but "after July clarify that reporting that is done on the employee loan 31" means from August 1 through to infinity. SoI 'm just program and on the volunteer program and anything wondering about when it is that we're expecting to get that we find in the various ministries, however we get at that report. You said "after." Does the minister mean im- it, with regard to secondment or resources that are ex- mediately, or…? pended for the Olympic Games…. Would those include resources within the Crown corporations? Hon. M. McNeil: I've been advised as soon as the books close, which is what we want to have. We want Hon. M. McNeil: The ministry tracks public service em- the report to be fulsome, so it's after the books close and ployees, and that's who would be included in the report. after the board has done their due diligence as well. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4551

K. Corrigan: I think I'm going to skip a little bit in Given that this was such an unprecedented event, I my questions here. I do have a question, though, about guess my ears pricked up when I saw that. I thought: the Paralympics. We've talked a lot about the Olympics, "Well, the B.C. government has committed to make the and yesterday I said that when I say "Olympics," I hope IOC whole." that the minister will understand that I also mean Is the minister of state saying that the province is not Paralympics. The $765 million and all this discussion responsible for that money — $30 million or whatever it about the employee loan program and all those things is? Is anybody responsible for that money? Is it going to — does that include Paralympics? end up being a gift from the IOC?

Hon. M. McNeil: Yes — games, as I call them. Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, that $30 million is part of the IOC's commitment. We're not responsible for that, but K. Corrigan: I appreciate that, because I'd hate to what I would say is that VANOC is still collecting rev- have to start all over again. enues. As you know, they were extremely successful with I have a question about B.C. Housing. In the fall of respect to the merchandising and the ticketing and the 2008 B.C. Housing announced that it would partner with various other…. They exceeded their expectations. So VANOC to disburse portable units from the Whistler again, all signals are that VANOC will balance its budget, Olympic village to communities like Sechelt and Surrey and we are confident that that will be the case. for social housing but not until the quarter ended. Did VANOC receive funds from B.C. Housing in the K. Corrigan: Well, there was an agreement that the amount of $8 million? I just want to make…. I'm curi- B.C. government would make the IOC whole, and when ous about how that money was spent by VANOC. Did it the money was forwarded to VANOC, the understand- go fully towards the social housing program, or was any ing was that it was…. I thought it was unclear whether it of it diverted into the VANOC ticket account? was a gift or whether it was a loan. Now VANOC is saying that it is relying on that money Hon. M. McNeil: You know, I don't know the answer being a gift, and I just wanted to get an assurance from to that. I think that's a question either for the Ministry of the minister of state that there is no commitment and Housing and Social Development or VANOC. that there have been no suggestions by the IOC that the province of British Columbia is in any way responsible K. Corrigan: Fair enough. The tickets that were be- under that agreement for the money that was forwarded ing committed to various community groups were part to VANOC. of the Inner City Inclusivity promises, so I thought that perhaps the minister would be aware of that because the Hon. M. McNeil: No, we are not responsible. That secretariat was so involved and the ministry is oversee- was a negotiation between the IOC and the Vancouver ing the Olympics. But if the minister isn't aware, that's organizing committee, and it is the IOC's contribution. fair enough. [1115] K. Corrigan: Well, that was an agreement between I wanted to ask a couple questions about the com- those two, but we also had an agreement that was signed mitment to repay any deficit that ANOCV had — the by the province that said that if there was a deficiency commitment by government to repay the IOC. There in the budget, the province would make the IOC whole. is the early agreement that said that if VANOC was in I'm assuming from what the minister says that the min- deficit, the provincial government would indemnify the ister is not aware that the IOC has in any way come to IOC. the province to try to collect that money and that it is My question for the minister of state is: is there going the minister's understanding that it will not. to be any indemnification by the province to theIOC as [1120] a result of these Olympic Games? Hon. M. McNeil: That is a contribution from theIOC . Hon. M. McNeil: Currently all signals are that It has nothing to do with the other. VANOC is going to balance and be within its budget, and we remain confident that that will be the case. K. Corrigan: I had a couple more questions. I wanted to ask about the arrangement that was made a while ago K. Corrigan: Recently VANOC said publicly — and to extinguish the responsibility for security in exchange I'm paraphrasing here — that it believed it was going to for, essentially, giving up $165 million in infrastructure balance its budget, thanks to and relying upon the com- money. mitment…. I believe it was $30 million — the money I'm wondering if the minister of state can tell me what that had been forwarded by the IOC. It was relying on infrastructure project did not happen or had to be for- that in order to balance its budget. gone and the matching moneys associated with it, which 4552 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010 would be the federal government and the local level of We got response from all around the globe, impres- government, that would add up to $500 million or so sive response. I think it's something that 85 percent of that could perhaps pay for something like the Evergreen the Canadian public watched TV during the gold medal line. men's hockey game. Is the minister aware of what kinds of infrastructure As you know, I was in estimates back in October and costs were given up or what infrastructure changes there giving my best guesses at numbers estimates that we had were as a result of that decision? figured out through speaking with media that had been at previous Olympics in other jurisdictions. So we gave Hon. M. McNeil: There is no infrastructure project it our best guess. Well, we exceeded in all of those areas. that was forgone. The province will pick up the costs of I'm really pleased to be able to be here today and to be the infrastructure within that commitment. able to say that. So 3.5 billion people tuned in to our games, either K. Corrigan: I would assume, then, we should be ex- on television or via the Internet. Those are huge, huge pecting an announcement of a project in the near future, numbers, and I think they need to be recognized. Not or perhaps it's already been announced, wherein the surprisingly, according to an Angus Reid poll, 92 per- province will be paying two-thirds of an infrastructure cent of Canadians believe that the 2010 Winter Olympic cost and a municipality…. Under the matching program, Games will have a positive effect on the nation and will there'll be a two-thirds payment by the provincial govern- help us with respect to tourism. ment and a one-third payment by the municipal level. I think I mentioned it yesterday, but it's worth re- peating. There was a recent report by a U.S. firm called Hon. M. McNeil: Again, no infrastructure project will Competitive Edge Research and Communication, and be forgone as a result of this commitment. But I think they were talking about who the real winners were of the this question really should go to the ministry involved. Olympic Games that we went through. They put, up with snowboarding, you might appreciate…. Snowboarding K. Corrigan: I just wanted to finish up.I 'd just like to ask became the big bonus, but also they felt one of the real a couple of questions about the PricewaterhouseCoopers winners was the province of British Columbia. The report that was issued. Several phases of it were released president I think actually said, and it's essentially a in the fall. The report said quite clearly that the…. quote from Competitive Edge president John Nienstedt, Well, I'll quote from it. "The tourism spending pro- that we essentially have improved our tourism prospects jected in the earlier InterVistas report envisioned that by a whopping 25 million Americans. for the high scenario" — in other words, high level of [1130] tourism dollar increase, the revenue increase — "a co- I think these are things that we need to continue to ordinated and effective marketing plan would be in work on. We do have a strategy working forward, bene- place before the 2010 Winter Games and that the plan fiting from the tremendous viewership that we had. The would leverage the award of the 2010 Winter Games to focus was on our province for a long time, and that's attract visitors during the pre-games period." very exciting for all of us. [1125] I think what also needs to be mentioned is that the What in fact happened was that there was very lit- InterVistas study examined projected impacts, whereas tle increase of revenue in the tourism industry. Instead, the PricewaterhouseCoopers study is doing the ac- there was an increase of activity because other levels tual impacts hindsight. They actually know what's of government went over their projected spending on happened. some of the venue sites. I think we cannot not recognize that there was a world- I'm wondering why it is that there was not a co- wide recession. But for me, a glass-half-full type, the ordinated and effective marketing plan that could have Olympics couldn't have come at a better time for our prov- brought in the benefits that had been predicted of some- ince. We will benefit, andI think that's what we need to look where in the range of $500 million, I believe it was. In forward to in the next PricewaterhouseCoopers report. fact, the government's own report says that tourism improvements were between $1 million and $5 million K. Corrigan: I have one more question. I'd love to get during that period. into this subject, but I don't have time because I have some colleagues that want to ask a couple of questions in Hon. M. McNeil: The worldwide recession really had the limited time we have left. Perhaps in advance I will an impact on tourism all over the world, and I think thank the minister of state very much for answering all that is something that was an impact that no one back of my questions in this rather long session. in the early part of this decade really knew was going My final question is: can the minister please tell to happen. What I can talk about is the absolutely un- me when we can expect to see that next report from precedented success of the marketing that we did do. PricewaterhouseCoopers? Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4553

[H. Bloy in the chair.] member is this. The issue of having the automatic exter- nal defibrillators, I think, has been discussed for some Hon. M. McNeil: PricewaterhouseCoopers is going time. The difficulty that providing these provincewide, to continue. As you know, we've got them looking right whether they be in schools or in sporting rinks, has through to 2013, and it's my understanding that the next not…. A consensus has not been made as to what would report will cover the next period and will be released in be the best way to move forward. late spring. I have had some discussions with a number of groups, who have suggested that they only be provided in certain The Chair: We'll call a one-minute recess while we institutions and certain-sized rinks — things such as that. switch. At this time it's really left for local communities to make a decision, in particular for sporting recreation centres such The committee recessed from 11:32 a.m. to 11:33 a.m. as that, to decide whether they too would want them. It certainly is recommended where there are large [H. Bloy in the chair.] audiences or large participation. I know there is no sort of nationwide consensus as well. Some provinces do J. Brar: Yesterday I did ask a number of questions provide incentives for some communities, but again, I about the issue of H1N1. I have one final question, if the don't believe there are any provinces in Canada that cur- minister can respond to that. Will there be a full review rently have it as a provincewide initiative. of the provincial H1N1 response and pandemic plan, I can tell the member that it's certainly worthy of and will it be made public? looking at. The member will probably recall…. When we were first elected in 2001, we did ensure that defibril- Hon. I. Chong: What we had conducted during the lators were installed in all of our ambulances, which at H1N1 pandemic last fall was that the provincial health that time, strangely enough, were not made available. I officer conducted a series of meetings with the media think it's fair to say that it continues to be an area of in- and those interested where he provided updates on a terest. At this time, however, there are no plans to bring regular basis — I think it was daily — for a number of in a provincewide regulation or requirement until we weeks. Then as things progressed, he was able to provide have further information. weekly updates. There are different kinds of defibrillators, different We then conducted a final news conference around, I costs associated, different maintenance requirements, think, the end of January, wherein we did conclude and different people trained in varying degrees. The last provided some remarks about how we felt the H1N1 thing you want to do is install a piece of equipment and planning went and how the rollout and the distribution then not have the people trained to operate it and then of the vaccine was made. have a tragic circumstance occur when, in fact, it was I think, to be fair, all that information has been out in not meant to be. We need to have all that information in the public, has been provided. We've identified, as well, place before we are able to consider it, but I appreciate lessons learned. There's information on our website with the member's interest. respect to H1N1. At this time I wish to advise the member that there J. Brar: Keeping in mind the time, I would like to just will be no further formal report other than what the put on the record a few questions, because my fellow provincial health officer may deem necessary from time members want to ask questions as well. I hope we can to time in consultation with other health officers across accommodate them — so very quickly. the country as they decide to move forward and discuss I got this e-mail from Peter Haugan, who is the this in a more profound way. president of the All Native Basketball Tournament, and [1135] this is what he wrote. "My name is Peter Haugan, and I'm the president of the All J. Brar: I would take from that that there will not at Native Basketball Tournament, which is held annually in Prince Rupert. We have just completed our 51st annual tournament. this stage be any review about the H1N1 response, so I'll This event is the largest basketball tournament in B.C. It is three move on to the next question. times larger than the AAA boys championship. Recently there has been some debate about some people "We as a board and committee run this event without help from demanding to put what we call defibrillators in our school government. It is getting so costly to run that we think it is time system. I would like to ask the minister: when will the min- for government financial support. It is also the largest native cul- tural event held annually in our province. There are 50-plus teams istry decide on the matter of defibrillators in our school in four divisions that come every year, and there are 600 to 700 system, if there's any decision about that coming? athletes." [1140] Hon. I. Chong: I was just trying to retrieve some My question I want to put on the record to the min- data, but I think perhaps the best way to respond to the ister: will the minister commit financial support to this 4554 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, April 20, 2010

largest basketball tournament that we have in the prov- kind of supports they are looking for, whether they be in ince of British Columbia? kind in terms of human resources or other. The other. There have been a number of e-mails com- At this time, though, I should say for the record that ing to my office, and those e-mails also went to the there is no financial commitment. But again, we are minister's office. I'm going to read that e-mail and then speaking with them and seeing how other arrangements conclude my comments. can be made to assist them. "I'm writing today to inquire about the completion of a number With respect to the member for Maple Ridge–Pitt of the Ombudsperson's recommendations that the government Meadows on the air action plan initiatives that he re- committed to fulfil by March 31, 2010. Specifically, please con- firm that the steps below have been taken: fers to, we do have the wood stove exchange program. "(1) Require all residential care facility operators to post the It does provide financial incentives for homeowners to resident bill of rights at the entrance of the facility for residents replace their old, smoky wood stoves. It's $250 per stove, and visitors. a provincial incentive, and it's further leveraged by re- "(2) Require that a liaison person be designated at each facility bates from the federal ecoEnergy program of $375 and and in each health authority to assist and respond to resident and family concerns. another $150 in rebates from appliance retailers. In some "(3) Include time frames for responding to resident and family communities additional local incentives can range any- councils. where from $50 to $500, so that is currently in place. "(4) Provide guidelines for all operators of residential care facili- The other is that we have a three-year $1.28 million ties on the type of support they should offer resident and family program. It's administered by the B.C. Lung Association. councils. "Finally, I urge you to begin immediately to ensure the full and They allocate grants to communities each year, and in timely implementation of all ten of the recommendations out- the first two years the program was able to replace 1,600 lined in the Ombudsperson's report. Thank you." old appliances, which will remove as much as 100 tonnes There have been a number of e-mails coming to my per year of fine particulate matter pollution. That's just office and to the minister's office, soI will appreciate if an example of a couple of programs we are using to as- the minister can respond later to both the questions I've sist in these communities. raised. [1145] I will conclude once again with saying thanks to the minister and staff for their support in this very mean- M. Sather: A couple of questions to put on the record ingful debate for the last couple of days. I'll ask my fellow for the minister. One is about the Trees for Tomorrow members to ask questions. program, a large urban afforestation program. I'm sure the minister is aware, I would think, of the Ecosystem M. Sather: I have a question for the minister on the Restoration Associates' work. I wanted to find out if the B.C. air action plan. One source of concern is particulate work they're doing in communities is part of the Trees matter, particularly with regard to outdoor burning and for Tomorrow program. wood stoves in urban areas. Finally, I had a question for the minister on residen- The ministry website says that particulate matter is tial care regulations — to wit, the Maple Ridge Seniors a serious health concern and can cause emphysema, Village. The September '09 report listed a number of chronic bronchitis, asthma and lung cancer. The plan shortcomings, which I won't repeat here. I'm sure the says that it is supporting people to replace old wood minister can find those, with regard to that.B ut I wanted stoves with cleaner alternatives. How is the government to know, if the minister can respond in writing later to- supporting people to replace wood stoves with cleaner day: what follow-up is being done to make sure there is alternatives? compliance at that facility?

The Chair: If I can remind all members to make their D. Donaldson: Hon. Chair, thank you for making questions short and the answers short, pertaining to the time to ask this question, and thank you to the minister limited amount of time. and the staff. I have a letter here that the minister received last Hon. I. Chong: To the member for Surrey-Fleetwood, month. It's from the Northwest Premium Meat Co-op I apologize. Yesterday I referred to him as the member in Smithers, in my constituency. It's a specific issue, but for Surrey-Panorama. it relates generally to the ministry's approach to health The two questions he asked we will respond to in protection. writing, specifically the latter part. The first part I think The meat co-op was created in response to the gov- I can just say for the record that I have met with the ernment's legislation around new regulations restricting Aboriginal Sports, Recreation and Physical Activity the selling of beef, especially in rural areas. This co-op Partners Council on a number of issues with regards to is one of the types of facilities developed in response to aboriginal sport. We are looking at a variety of ways that the new, more restrictive legislation brought in by the we can help them increase sport participation and what government. Tuesday, April 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4555

The meat co-op is in trouble. They've written to the recently called in their business loan guarantee. It's an minister. The board president is describing the situation unfortunate situation. where the co-op will have to be shut down May 1, and However, given that that is the case, the funds and the it's going to the co-op members' AGM April 28, just a support government has committed to date to this par- week or so away. ticular entity and venture…. Neither I nor this ministry They say in the letter: "Our region needs your help or the Ministry of Ag and Lands can support the provi- to save this provincially inspected facility for our com- sion of additional funding to this co-op. munities." They're asking for the minister's help. They I do want to say, though, for the record that govern- wrote to you close to a month ago now and haven't ment absolutely currently still strongly supports the role heard anything back from you or the Minister of of licensed and inspected slaughter in the processing Agriculture. services. We do hope that the co-op is able to look at re- My question to the minister is: can you describe the structuring and find a way to permanently reopen. We kind of help you can offer as Minister of Healthy Living will continue to work with this co-op, but unfortunately, and Sport to these dedicated producers from as far afield we're not able to contribute any further funding to sup- as Haida Gwaii to Vanderhoof and Dease Lake — an in- port their business. credible size in the province? I thank all the members for their participation and the critic for this lead-in. Noting the hour, I move the Hon. I. Chong: Firstly, to the member for Maple motion. Ridge–Pitt Meadows. Certainly, we will ensure to get back to him regarding the concerns that he raised and The Chair: Wait a second. Just one moment. put on the record. To the member for Stikine, with regards to the J. Brar: I would like to thank the minister and all the Northwest Premium Meat Co-op, I just want to say staff members for their support once again during the last that our government has provided support to this co- two days. I appreciate the Chair from the bottom of my op in its desire and its mission to provide locally raised heart for accommodating my two colleagues and going meat to consumers in the northwest part of the prov- beyond the time limit. I appreciate that. Thank you very ince since 2001. Three ministries — the Ministries of much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the minister and staff. Healthy Living and Sport, Agriculture and Lands, and Community Development — have also collaborated Vote 38: ministry operations, $52,103,000 — ap- to provide financial support and technical expertise to proved. keep them operational. But unfortunately, despite considerable support from Hon. I. Chong: I move that the committee rise, re- a number of agencies and from government, they have port resolution of the Ministry of Healthy Living and been unable to mobilize the market that's required to Sport and ask leave to sit again. be profitable.U nfortunately and quite simply, their sales have been insufficient to provide operational costs and Motion approved. the debt financing that they've accrued. I know that the NDI, the Northern Development Initiative fund, has The committee rose at 11:50 a.m.

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