Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Wednesday, May 26, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 18, Number 8

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... –Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 26, 2010 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 5767

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 5768 Automobile crime reduction J. Les Ian Case and theatre arts C. James Lower Mainland Local Government Association R. Howard Sunshine Coast Trail N. Simons Organic agriculture in south Okanagan J. Slater Agriculture in Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows area M. Sather

Oral Questions...... 5770 B.C. Hydro advertising campaign C. James Hon. B. Lekstrom J. Horgan D. Black R. Fleming Social support program funding and government spending priorities J. Kwan Hon. K. Falcon A. Dix Funding for community-based hepatitis C and HIV/AIDS programs K. Corrigan Hon. I. Chong S. Hammell Community gaming grants for arts festivals S. Chandra Herbert Hon. R. Coleman N. Simons

Tabling Documents...... 5775 Insurance Corporation of British Columbia, annual report, 2009

Petitions...... 5775 L. Krog

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House...... 5775 Bill 19 — Finance Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2010 B. Ralston Hon. C. Hansen D. Donaldson

Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 5787 Bill 19 — Finance Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2010 Second Reading of Bills...... 5787 Bill 17 — Clean Energy Act Hon. B. Lekstrom J. Horgan Hon. J. Yap

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 5814 Estimates: Ministry of Health Services (continued) A. Dix Hon. K. Falcon S. Chandra Herbert J. Kwan G. Coons D. Donaldson M. Sather D. Thorne 5767

WEDNESDAY, MAY 26, 2010 and the Nautical Miles. Please make him very welcome today. The House met at 1:34 p.m. Hon. J. Yap: I'd like the House to join me in welcom- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] ing 45 grades 6 and 7 students and two teachers, Mr. Don Allison and Mr. Kevin Dimick, as well as nine par- Routine Business ents from one of the best elementary schools in British Columbia, Tomekichi Homma Elementary, in my com- Prayers. munity, Steveston. They're here as part of Mr. Allison and Mr. Dimick's class on parliamentary democracy. Introductions by Members I had a chance to meet with the students and give them a bit of a preview of what question period and the Hon. G. Campbell: I am pleased to say that in the debates in the House will bring. I had some great ques- precinct today we have a group of grade 11 students tions from them, and I know that we will show them from West Point Grey Academy, in my constituency exactly how parliamentary democracy works during of Vancouver–Point Grey. They're travelling with some their visit. Would the House please join me in giving parents and their teacher Jenise Boland. They're here to them a warm welcome. experience the history of the House and the place and to take pictures and to understand how this all works. R. Cantelon: I think it's fair to say that engineers built I hope that they are having a very good day. I'd ask the this great province. They supervised and designed the Legislature to make them all welcome. infrastructure on which the transportation systems and, [1335] in effect, the foundations of the economy of this great province are built. With us today in the House are two V. Huntington: I was delighted to be joined earlier to- of the best, and their wives. Joining us today are Lee day by Mrs. Dale Cotter and 30 of her grade 4 students Rowley and his wife, Caroline, and Mike Herold and his from Beach Grove Elementary, in Tsawwassen. These wife, Sandy. Please make these guests welcome. students were an exceptionally inquisitive group. I hope the ten parents who accompanied them were justly L. Reid: I have two sets of introductions today. The proud of their well-behaved children. Would the mem- first.I have three lovely individuals in the gallery: Janice bers please join me in welcoming them to the House. Barr, who is the executive director of the Richmond Society for Community Living; Michael McCoy, the Hon. R. Coleman: Joining us in the House today are executive director of Touchstone Family Services; and 40 grade 5 students from Betty Gilbert Middle School in he is joined by Lawrence Portigal, a board member. Aldergrove. They're accompanied by their teacher Gina Now, we all have wonderful agencies. They are the Crockett and 16 parents. Would the House please make folks that make our communities stronger. My lovely them welcome. colleague from Richmond Centre and I had the oppor- tunity to have lunch with them today. I'd ask the House J. Horgan: Joining us in the gallery today are two con- to make them very welcome. stituents of the Minister of Labour, Pamela and Dennis My second introduction, on behalf Mr. Speaker, is a Sutton. They were joining me for lunch after participat- group of individuals participating in a full-day parlia- ing in a Women's Institute auction. We had a lovely tour. mentary procedure workshop. This workshop provides We had some great discussions about the minister and a firsthand opportunity for the public service to gain a his constituency. Would the House please make them greater understand of the relationship between the work very, very welcome. of the ministries and how that work affects thisL egislature. Would the House please make them welcome. Hon. M. de Jong: A few weeks ago the Premier was in the Netherlands. Today a return visit from some folks D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce five who hail from Eindhoven in the Netherlands, where they very special students and their principal from Kwantlen take their football and their beer seriously: Tiny and Park Secondary School, one of the best schools in Surrey. Gerard Verhoeven and Kees and Ans Pÿnenborg. I hope They are my guests.I took them out for lunch today, and the whole House will make them feel very welcome. they're touring the Legislative Assembly. As a matter of fact, they're sitting up there. S. Chandra Herbert: I'd like the House to make very They are Rachel Wilkinson; Omar Berbar; Cherise welcome Corbin Murdoch, an artist in his own right as Ervin — who couldn't be here; Sophia Mattheakis; and well as a youth program coordinator with the Vancouver East Eric Von Sivers. Joining them is principal Rick Breen. Cultural Centre. Check out his band, Corbin Murdoch [1340] 5768 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

These students participated in the Rotary Club of games training and preparation centres. They increased Surrey's Adventures in Citizenship speech meet. That surveillance, solicited the help of police dogs and traffic event focused on developing greater awareness among helicopters and deployed undercover cars equipped with the young people of their responsibilities, and these automatic licence plate recognition technology, which grades 11 and 12 students were asked to speak on why can scan up to 600 plates an hour, to locate stolen vehicles. Canada is an exceptional country to live in. These efforts paid off. We not only celebrated a very suc- They did an excellent speech on this, and for their cessful Olympics, but we experienced a 14-year low in great work I promised them that I would invite them vehicle thefts and incidents as well during that period. here, take them out for lunch and introduce them to the A reduction in auto theft not only promotes the House. Also, they see how our democracy works. Some well-being and security of British Columbians; it also of them are expected to go into politics. They might be saves money by keeping insurance rates as low as pos- our future MLAs, even our Premier. Would the House sible. This now longstanding and reassuring trend will please make them very welcome. continue to keep British Columbians safe, thanks to the hard work of our local law enforcement agencies. Hon. S. Thomson: I've got a very special guest in the gallery today, and it's my first chance to introduce her IAN CASE AND THEATRE ARTS officially. She's been here for throne speeches and things like that where we don't get the formal introductions, C. James: I rise to acknowledge an extraordinary but my wife, Brenda, has joined us in the gallery today, Victorian and the contributions he has made to B.C.'s and I am very pleased to thank her for her continued vibrant arts community. Ian Case is a UVic graduate support and want the House to make her welcome. trained in acting and English. He's the general manager She also has two girlfriends with her from Vancouver. of Intrepid Theatre, which produces the Victoria Fringe Barb Elworthy and Dixie Wolfe are visiting as well. Dixie Festival as well as North America's only solo perform- Wolfe is actually the daughter of the late hon. Evan Wolfe, ance festival, which is happening right now in Victoria. who served this province under two Premiers — Premiers Ian has acted in, directed or produced more than 50 W.A.C. Bennett and Bill Bennett — as Minister of Finance for shows in Victoria since the 1990s. Throughout that time the province. I'd ask the House to make them all welcome. he's shared his talents with the Vancouver Island arts com- munity, serving as a mentor and an adviser to his fellow Statements artists and performers. Ian is the former president of (Standing Order 25B) ProArt Alliance of Greater Victoria and the former publi- cist for Langham Court Theatre.I an has also played a key AUTOMOBILE CRIME REDUCTION role in standing up for arts funding in British Columbia. This summer Ian will be playing in William J. Les: As a society we depend on our vehicles for Shakespeare's Richard III, a part that's very near and dear transportation. For many of us, buying a car or a to his heart. Ian first saw this play in Stratford, England, truck is the second-largest purchase that we will make. when he was a teenager. The performance was so power- Understandably, falling victim to auto crime can be up- ful that it convinced him to become an actor. setting, both financially and emotionally. [1345] I'm happy to say that auto theft has dramatically re- He'll be joined on the stage by his daughters in this duced and decreased in British Columbia. Since 2003 performance, Hannah and Emily. That's going to be a vehicle theft has decreased by 58 percent in our province, very exciting production for him. and vehicle break-ins have dropped by 52 percent over In recognition of his significant and ongoing commit- the same period. In my constituency of Chilliwack we've ment to the arts and theatre community, Ian was selected seen an impressive 60 percent reduction from 2003. The as the CFAX community award for arts leader of the year bait car program that we worked hard to develop in in 2010. He has also been named by Monday Magazine British Columbia has paid off in spades and is now be- as the hardest-working person in local theatre. ing emulated by many others across North America. Would the House please join me in congratulating Ian During the Olympic and Paralympic Games we had and thanking him for his outstanding contribution to an influx of cars flooding the province, particularly the the arts, not only on Vancouver Island but all of British Lower Mainland, and car theft was a real concern.O nce Columbia. again our police forces rallied to ensure public safety and vehicle security. Bait cars were deployed with microdot lower mainland DNA technology, making it easier for police to identify local government association and recover stolen items. These cars were placed at all 22 park-and-ride loca- R. Howard: I recently had the opportunity to attend tions, VANOC parking lots and departure hubs as well as the annual general meeting of the Lower Mainland Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5769

Local Government Association, otherwise known as One of the attractive things about the Sunshine Coast the LMLGA. As a past member of the executive of the Trail is that while traversing some rugged and challenging organization, I was pleased to see a document entitled terrain, there are shelters, wilderness campsites and ac- Working Together in the Lower Mainland, which is a cess to supplies along the way. The trail even passes by sustainability snapshot for 2010. some quality restaurants and some comfortable bed- TheL MLGA has embarked on a very valuable journey. and-breakfasts — my kind of hiking. The report of the Fraser Basin Council represents a very The whole SunshineC oast Trail system is broken into unique opportunity for the LMLGA and the region its smaller segments for shorter hikes, with some wilder- membership covers, which is from Lillooet to the Lower ness campgrounds also along the way. The segmentation Mainland to Hope. of the trail into sections creates a unique opportunity for The opportunity to identify issues which transcend hikers of all skill levels to explore portions of the trail or local and regional boundaries is a valuable one. This is the entire trail. With a bit of research and with the third a starting point for a broader discussion to identify op- edition of the Sunshine Coast Trail guide book, any cas- portunities that allow us to collectively work together to ual hiker or marathon hiker will find the SunshineC oast plan for the future of the Lower Mainland, to look out Trail to be inspiring. for the region as a whole — a transborder discussion of key issues. organic agriculture Issues such as agriculture and food, consumption and in south okanagan waste, sewers and water, environmental health and trans- portation are important issues which transcend local and J. Slater: Organic and sustainable agricultural princi- regional boundaries, and I think it is an opportunity for ples have been a long history in the Similkameen Valley. LMLGA to identify the priority issues that have strong In 1986 a Similkameen Okanagan Organic Producers agreement and work to push these forward so that shared Association began certifying farms. Since then, South action can be taken across the broader region. Okanagan–Similkameen growers have been leaders in The very things that bring many to the region — the advancement of organic principles. oceans, mountains and proximity to the border — are [1350] also things that restrict and guide our growth. With Cawston Cold Storage Ltd., which operates under strong population growth predicted over the next 25 the brand name of Nature's First Fruits, is the only 100 years, it is important that we engage in this kind of dia- percent organic packing facility in British Columbia logue and more often think as a region when it comes to handling only certified organic fruits and vegetables. significant decisions on matters relating to the environ- Under the leadership of president Billy Potash they ment, consumption, waste and transportation. grow, pack and sell a variety of organic tree fruits and Thank you to theL MLGA, to the Fraser Basin Council vegetables. The management and growers of Cawston and, of course, their funding partners that make this im- Cold Storage are able to provide their valued customers portant work possible. a lifetime of experience in the organic industry. Their label, Nature's First Fruits, can be found throughout sunshine coast trail North America from coast to coast, as well as in parts of Europe and Asia. N. Simons: Located on the upper Sunshine Coast and The Similkameen Valley has the highest concentration Powell River regional district, the Sunshine Coast Trail of organic farms in Canada, an impressive 40 percent of stretches 180 kilometres from Saltery Bay ferry terminal all organic farms across the country. Only 1 percent of to Sarah Point and Desolation Sound Marine Park. The farms are certified organic across Canada, and approxi- formation of this epic trail began in 1992, led by Eagle mately 2 percent in British Columbia. Walz and Scott Glaspey and a handful of outdoor en- In 2004 a representative group of 34 South Okanagan thusiasts. They realized that accessible old growth was and Similkameen Valley farmers gathered to discuss vanishing from the upper Sunshine Coast, so they moving forward on a concept for a centre of excel- formed the Powell River Parks and Wilderness Society. lence in organic sustainable farming and research. By The society began building trails with the aim to pre- utilizing the local expertise in 2005, a grass-roots so- serve the natural assets of the region and to provide hikers ciety was formed — the Organic Farming Institute with access to view an incredible variety of wildlife, vege- of British Columbia, located in Keremeos, British tation and inspirational views. By connecting existing Columbia. trails and creating new ones, they formed the Sunshine Farmers were surveyed across four of B.C.'s major Coast Trail, which is fast gaining a reputation for being as farming regions, and results indicated a high degree challenging and inspiring as the iconic West Coast Trail. of interest in education. In 2008, through discussions By March 2001 the trail was over 180 kilometres long, with the Fraser Valley institute, the first organic farming where only nine years earlier it was 35 kilometres long. course was developed. 5770 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

AGRICULTURE IN As the member well knows, I think it's extremely im- MAPLE RIDGE–PITT MEADOWS AREA portant that we communicate with British Columbians. We hear that all the time from our constituents, I'm sure, M. Sather: Agriculture has been a mainstay in Maple from both sides of the House. They want to hear what's Ridge for over 130 years. Three families in particular going on in Victoria, what the policies are. hold a special place in the history of agriculture in my [1355] community. William and Amanda Hampton and John We have, actually, a clean energy act that is the envy and Mary Laity arrived in Maple Ridge by riverboat of North America. We're going to go into full discussion from New Westminster in 1879. John Laity paid a dollar on it. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of the ads, and I know per acre for his land, which he asserted was an outra- the British Columbians I talk to are proud of those ads geous price. He only agreed to it because of the fabulous too. view of the Golden Ears mountains. The two families began farming next to each other, and Interjections. their descendants, some six generations later, continue to farm the same land today. Residents and visitors alike Mr. Speaker: Members. were treated to the delightful scene of Bill Laity work- The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. ing his horses in his fields until he passed away recently. Today Bill Laity's sons run a Jersey cow dairy, while their C. James: I can tell this minister and this government neighbours Paul and Matt Laity run a Holstein dairy they don't need to spend advertising dollars. The public herd. Heather and Don Laity, to the south of them, farm knows what's going on with this government, and they the famous pumpkin patch. don't very much like it in British Columbia. Just down the road from the Hamptons and the Laitys These are taxpayer dollars being spent, and it's shame- is the Davison farm. The Davisons have been farm- ful that when the government can't find funding for rent ing their property since 1902. The Davisons also have supplements or nutrition supplements for people with a Jersey dairy herd as well as a cedar hedging business. disabilities, they can find millions of dollars for an ad Kerry Davison is planning to develop an artisan cheese campaign. While they're cutting programs, community processing plant and shop on their property. programs, public health programs, child care for young Agriculture is thriving in Maple Ridge, but there is a women who are going back to school, the government cloud on the horizon. There's currently an application can still spend taxpayer dollars on advertising. to convert over 200 acres of prime agricultural land Again my question is to the minister, very straight- adjacent to the Hampton and Laity farms to an indus- forward: how can the B.C. Liberals justify spending trial park and associated uses. If accepted, this proposal taxpayer dollars on government advertising when they're would spawn more removal applications from the area. cutting vital services for British Columbians? This would jeopardize the wonderful farm families in northwest Maple Ridge and adjacent Pitt Meadows. Hon. B. Lekstrom: As I said earlier, this is an excit- As a former member of this House, Val Roddick, fre- ing time for British Columbia. We have the opportunity quently reminded us, we all have to eat to live. Let's to develop clean, green, renewable energy in this prov- remember that, and all of us do what we can to protect ince that other jurisdictions around the world look to agriculture and farming families. us with envy. The cost — the other one the member should know, Oral Questions as she may be somewhat confused as the Leader of the Opposition. This is funded by B.C. Hydro. B.C. Hydro's B.C. HYDRO ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN ads will be published by the Financial Information Act, which is posted every year. C. James: Just a number of weeks ago the government So to say that programs are being cut — Member, launched a new advertising campaign with B.C. Hydro. you're wrong. This is a very good ad. I think the mem- The ads first appeared during the Vancouver Canucks ber, should she not even be in this chamber, would have playoff run, and they've been airing every day since. to agree. Those are great ads. They're informative, and My question is to the Minister of Energy, very straight- British Columbians are proud of them. forward: how much is the ad campaign costing British Columbians? Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- ther supplemental. Hon. B. Lekstrom: We have some exciting times in British Columbia right now with the Clean Energy Act. C. James: I can't believe the minister would use that It's an important new direction that we're setting for the as an excuse. B.C. Hydro dollars are taxpayer dollars, province of British Columbia. taxpayers' money, and they deserve to know how much. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5771

Let's look at the facts. Another broken promise from To the Minister of Energy: tell us today how much this government. They promised to actually reduce ad- the ad buy is, and how long must we endure pictures of vertising spending, and what's the budget? It was $6.9 W.A.C. Bennett and water going over turbines? million last year, $19 million this year. Again my ques- tion is to the minister: how much of taxpayer dollars is Interjections. this government spending on this ad campaign? Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. B. Lekstrom: The Financial Information Act discloses this. B.C. Hydro does that every year, and I Hon. B. Lekstrom: As I said earlier, the Clean Energy know the member will be looking at that. But you want Act sets out a new and important direction for British to talk about the ad? It is a great ad. I've had members Columbians, one that I think is extremely important on your side of the House tell me what a great ad it is, so that we take every opportunity… maybe you should talk to your own members. Mr. Speaker: Minister. J. Horgan: Well, we're in the midst of the largest cor- ruption trial in B.C. history. We're in the midst of a Hon. B. Lekstrom: …to communicate. historic initiative campaign to tear down government policy. It's little wonder that the Liberals want to change Interjections. the channel. But our question is a simple one. How much is it cost- Mr. Speaker: Members. ing B.C. Hydro ratepayers to tell them that there are Just to remind the minister. That bill is before the rivers in British Columbia? I know that must have been House. an epiphany when they turned on the hockey game and Continue, Minister. they saw water in B.C. rivers. How much did it cost to tell them the obvious? Hon. B. Lekstrom: Certainly, I think that the mem- bers on the opposite side would have heard that as well, Hon. B. Lekstrom: I'm proud to hear he was watch- but we'll get into the debate on the Clean Energy Act. ing the hockey game, like most proud Canadians were. We have actually said that we are going to communi- The issue, as I've said before, Member, is that the infor- cate with British Columbians on the opportunities that mation will be released under the Financial Information we have in this province. We have the opportunity to Act by B.C. Hydro. generate clean, green renewable electricity… [1400] But these ads…. Let's not lose sight. We're proud of Mr. Speaker: Minister. our ability to communicate what is, I think, one of the most significant pieces of legislation we've seen in this Hon. B. Lekstrom: …not only to meet our own de- province for decades, an opportunity that puts British Columbia at the forefront not just of North America but mands but to meet the demands of North America, and the world when it comes to clean energy development. we're going to do that. British Columbians and our government are ex- tremely proud. Get on board, Member. Interjections.

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. I want to remind the minister that when a bill is be- Mr. Speaker: Members. fore the House, it shouldn't be discussed. That applies The member has a supplemental. for both sides.

J. Horgan: When I took my glasses off and squinted D. Black: The only reason the minister is withholding at the picture of W.A.C. Bennett, I could almost see the this information is because it's shameful. It's shameful member for Vancouver–Point Grey there. I could almost that the B.C. Liberals spend millions of dollars on ads see that. Then I thought to myself: "Well, that justified while telling British Columbians at the same time that airlifting five planeloads of people to Hudson's Hope, there's no money in the cupboard for vital services for because they were doing the filming of the commercials their families. for B.C. Hydro." There's absolutely no reason, no reason at all, that the The star of the show,K ing Lear, says to us now that it's minister cannot release this information right here in okay to waste public money on advertising. He didn't this House today. Why won't he make this information say that in the 1990s. Why is he doing it now? public? 5772 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Hon. B. Lekstrom: We have a Crown corporation Hon. B. Lekstrom: Slow down. Slow down, Members, in B.C. Hydro that is the envy in North America of any and you'll get the answer. Every year under the Financial Crown corporation. We have amongst the lowest elec- Information Act this information is posted. The mem- tricity rates in North America, and you're against that. bers know they'll get the information. You're against clean energy development. But if what the member is saying is that you wouldn't [1405] communicate with the people of British Columbia, we Not only are you against enshrining the public owner- see it differently. We're going to communicate. We're go- ship of B.C. Hydro for all British Columbians. We ing to talk about what's important to British Columbians. enshrined it in legislation. You opposed it. But more im- We're going to talk about what the Clean Energy Act portantly, when we have the ability to become electricity means — pardon me, Mr. Speaker — about what our self-sufficient, to create jobs and economic opportun- ability to develop clean, renewable electricity in this ities in every region of this province, to develop the province means, what it means to jobs, what it means to electricity not only to meet our needs but to help others communities, what it means to First Nations. meet their needs with reduced greenhouse gas emis- We're proud of what we're doing. We're going to build sions, we're going to do it. We're going to do it well, and on it, and you'll all love it too. British Columbians are going to be proud. SOCIAL SUPPORT PROGRAM FUNDING Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. AND GOVERNMENT SPENDING PRIORITIES

D. Black: Well, perhaps I can help the minister cal- J. Kwan: What is clear is that this government is culate what it's costing his government for these ads, willing to spend millions of dollars on government because each and every 30-second ad during the play- ads while cutting critical programs for the people in offs on CBC cost $7,000 — each and every 30-second greatest need. For 25 years adults with disabilities de- ad — money that could have been spent to help B.C. termined to be independent could turn to a Broadway families in a critical time. Instead, this money is being Connections program, a community program based in wasted on government advertising. East Vancouver for the last 25 years. Through that pro- So again to the minister: what does it say about a gram, past and present clients have forged relationships government that can find millions of dollars for an ad and friendships that benefit their lives. campaign while at the same time cutting critical sup- Social support, as the Minister of Health should ports for B.C. families? know, is a key determinant of health. My question is to the Minister of Health. Why is he supporting the gov- Hon. B. Lekstrom: The reason we're able to invest in the ernment's advertising campaign at a time when he is programs that British Columbians enjoy is because of job cutting funding for people who are in greatest need in creation, because of opportunities we have in this province. our community? In order to have a strong social foundation for the pro- [1410] grams that we have to deliver, to ensure the less fortunate in this province can maintain a quality of life and be looked Hon. K. Falcon: Once again we have the NDP, of after, is to ensure that we have, actually, an environment course, talking about cuts that don't exist in health care, where the private sector wants to invest. That's who creates when the health care budget is actually going up 15 per- the jobs. We're going to do that. We're proud. I'll put our cent over the next three years. I understand that the NDP budget against any one of your budgets from the 1990s. have difficulty understanding that a $2 billion increase in a budget is actually not a cut. That's an increase. R. Fleming: The question is simple, and the minister Now, in the world of the NDP, and we've had this dis- has been asked it six times. The question is: why won't cussion many times, no programs apparently should the minister be transparent about his ad-buy binge in ever change. It doesn't matter whether the information the middle of spending cuts across government? The changes. It doesn't matter whether best practices sug- public has a right to know. These are tax dollars. So the gest that you can do things differently and drive better question is: why won't the minister tell the House to- results. In the NDP world, apparently, nothing should day…? He authorized buying this ad campaign. The ever change. minister should tell the House today what the total cost But the fact of the matter is that Vancouver Coastal is is of this ad campaign splurge. looking at all of their programs very carefully to ensure that they are meeting the needs of the residents based on Hon. B. Lekstrom: I'll give the answer I gave a number of the best practices that are available. That's exactly what the other members. This information will be posted…. they're doing in the case of the Broadway program.

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5773

J. Kwan: It is clear that the minister doesn't know Hon. K. Falcon: This, of course, is a common theme what the heck he's talking about. Denise is a 25-year from the NDP. We have a $2 billion increase in the health program participant. She took the lead at organizing care budget. We have a…. and advocating for this program at its inception. Betty Ann is a 17-year-old participant who calls this program Interjections. beloved and vital. Broadway Connections promotes [1415] independence and peer-to-peer relationships and pre- vents isolation. Hon. K. Falcon: I'm willing to give an answer if you're It is successful because it is unique and specifically willing to listen to it. designed for people with disabilities. It has adaptive We have a $2 billion increase in the health care budget equipment that facilitates full participation. It is one of a over the next three years. That is a record level of in- kind in Vancouver, and there are no others like it. crease in health care spending in one of the most difficult Before the minister shuts down the successful pro- economic times we've had. We've got Vancouver Coastal gram, will he at least go down to the Mount Pleasant actually doing appropriate work to make sure that they Neighbourhood House and meet with Betty Ann and are focusing those dollars on direct health care. That's Denise and tell them face to face why he's supporting what the public would expect. this government's advertising campaign and cutting I get that the members opposite believe that nothing their programs today? should ever change in the health care system. That has been a consistent theme. But they have never suggested Hon. K. Falcon: TheB roadway Connections program what they would ever do differently, other than just keep is a program that — the member is right — has been doing exactly the same thing and keep spending more around for 25 years. It is a socialization program that money doing exactly the same thing. provides subsidized $3 meals. It provides taking people On this side of the House we are saying to our health au- to movies and to darts and table bowling, etc., and I'm thorities: "We want you to innovate. We want you to bring not saying that those aren't important socialization pro- about appropriate change. We want you to focus on de- grams. They are not health programs, however. livery of health care services." Socialization programs, as So what the health authority is doing, I think quite important as they are, can probably be better provided in appropriately, having examined that program, is they the community, but we want to ensure that rehabilitative are actually going to take the dollars, put them into services for those with physical disabilities are being pro- enhanced rehabilitation services for those folks, and al- vided, which they are doing here, and streaming them into low those folks to connect, in the broader community, programs that are already available in the community. to existing programs that allow them to be better inte- grated in the broader community. FUNDING FOR COMMUNITY-BASED That's actually what best practices suggest is the right HEPATITIS C AND HIV/AIDS PROGRAMS thing to do. I get that in the NDP world no change should ever happen. That is actually what the best evi- K. Corrigan: A national research study released last dence says in terms of dealing with these folks. week reveals that B.C. women with HIV are more than twice as likely as women in Quebec or Ontario to experi- A. Dix: The minister apparently thinks it's best prac- ence viral-load rebound — meaning their medication tices to take people out of a program that has been stops killing the virus — and they are more than twice extraordinarily successful for them and to spend money as likely to suffer, as well, from hepatitis C. Given these on people to find them other programs that might be alarming statistics, why has the government slashed successful. This is what he describes as best practices. funding for community-based HIV/hepatitis C work? The truth is that this program is best practices. It's been long regarded as a model program by Vancouver Hon. I. Chong: Our province provides more than Coastal itself, and the minister disparages everyone in- $100 million to fight HIV each and every year. And I volved when he limits it to talking about people playing can tell you that, on a per capita basis, we have one of darts. It's way more than that, and the minister should the most robust programs here in British Columbia. Our know that, if he even bothered to read his briefing note. recently announced $48 million seek and treat program Here's a suggestion for the minister. The net cost of is yet another opportunity to help those with HIV to the program this year is ten of the Minister of Energy's ensure that they get the support they need. ads. Ten of those ads would pay for this program this year. Why doesn't he go down and talk to the Minister Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. of Energy, divert that money to these clients, to these people in the community, and restore funding to K. Corrigan: Well, the minister well knows that I'm Broadway Connections? talking about community-based HIV programs, programs 5774 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

that help protect women against more complications COMMUNITY GAMING GRANTS and health decline. Millions of dollars for taxpayers' ads, FOR ARTS FESTIVALS but no money for programs like this. The government has eliminated all the funding of the National Congress S. Chandra Herbert: My question for the minister of Black Women Foundation to run an effective AIDS for gaming…. Application for gaming funds have been program. coming in for over four months from arts groups that This foundation, which is based in my riding, pro- produce festivals, and only now are the minister's offi- vided essential support to women of African descent cials telling organizations that put on film, dance, theatre who are diagnosed with or affected by HIV. Will the and music festivals that the government has changed the minister please admit that slashing the budgets of effect- rules on them, telling them that they are no longer going ive community HIV/AIDS programs harms women's to get funding because they are not community cultural health? festivals and they aren't worthy of the support. Can the minister of gaming tell me when he became Hon. I. Chong: I'd like to let all members of this House the province's arts czar, deciding dance, film, music and know that our Centre for Excellence for HIV is world- theatre festivals aren't supportable community cultural renowned. It is recognized internationally. We should celebrations? be proud that British Columbia…. We are a pioneer in our approach to unique issues affecting women living Hon. R. Coleman: We made the changes on the with HIV and their families. amalgamation of the grant programs on March 5. That Let me just say this, Mr. Speaker. The $48 million seek information was sent out to organizations. Since then and treat program, a four-year program, is going to pro- we are answering questions of individual organizations vide the supports that are needed. It's going to deal with as we try and clarify our priorities as they match up with people living with HIV in three specific areas to begin regards to the applications they may want to make to with — definitely in the Downtown Eastside and Prince government. George and Kelowna. This program is also getting world recognition, and we should be proud of the work we Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. continue to do on HIV prevention. S. Chandra Herbert: Well, no arts and culture or- S. Hammell: Surrey South Fraser Community ganization that I know of in this entire province ever Services saw its budget for HIV and hep C services de- received the notice that the minister mentioned, nor crease by $133,000. Programs that focus on reaching were they told by the minister that they weren't worthy First Nations women and women in ethnic commun- cultural festivals in their communities. They are. ities are also being hit. The question back to the minister is: why were his [1420] ministry officials, whoI spoke with, instructed not to re- For example, community-based programs such as lease the documents that told the arts organizations that the Asian Society for the Intervention of AIDS and the they weren't worthy of support? Why were the ministry Vancouver Native Health Society positive outreach pro- officials told they were not allowed to release documents gram have both, because of cuts, lost capacity to provide which said things like Green Thumb Theatre was not a outreach and support services — a counterproductive youth arts company worthy of support, either, because it decision because it further marginalizes patients who was not run by children? are already hard to reach. Again, to the minister: will she revisit these cutbacks Hon. R. Coleman: Maybe I should just clarify some- to community-based AIDS/HIV programs? thing to the member opposite, who has got so many facts wrong in that statement, it's unbelievable. Let's talk Hon. I. Chong: Once again, I want to acknowledge about the Green Thumb Theatre group that the -mem the excellent work done by our Centre for Excellence ber just mentioned. This group applied prior to the in HIV. The work that is being done is recognized by amalgamation of the grant program on March 5. As the people such as Dr. Julio Montaner. grants staff are processing these applications that were I also want to say to the member that I have had the received prior to the grant change, they're contacting opportunity to meet with a number of community- the applicants to advise them of the changes to the grant based organizations that support persons with HIV. program to allow them the opportunity to amend their They have also been looking at our $48 million seek and applications, because we're focusing on youth and arts treat program, acknowledging that that, too, will deliver and culture. more outcomes to ensure that people with HIV get the Mr. Ivan Habel, the general manager of the Green supports that they need. We will continue to advance Thumb Theatre, was contacted yesterday regarding their that program. application. Arrangements have been made to allow Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5775

them to make an amendment to their application for Orders of the Day their youth focus program. It will then be processed along with other applications, Hon. Member. Hon. M. de Jong: I call in Committee A, Committee of Supply — for the information of members, the esti- N. Simons: Well, what's obvious is that the arts com- mates of the Ministry of Health — and, in this chamber, munity in the province is being buffeted by rule changes committee stage debate on Bill 19. and changes in standards and application procedures and cuts, and they're the ones left reeling. It's impacting Committee of the Whole House on the communities that benefit from assistance from government to put on good arts and culture shows. Not BIll 19 — Finance Statutes only can't the minister keep track of his own definitions Amendment Act (No. 2), 2010 of what a festival is, he seems not to know the definition of youth, arts and culture either. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Green Thumb is a good example. It's an inter- Bill 19; L. Reid in the chair. nationally renowned, award-winning fixture in British Columbia that tours the province by bringing theatre to The committee met at 2:30 p.m. kids. They've been told that they don't qualify because they're not actually being run by youth. This is the prob- Section 1 approved. lem facing these arts organizations. [1425] On section 2. I've never been happier to see a red light. It gives me a little bit of an opportunity to explain to the minister, B. Ralston: Can the minister explain section 2 and now that we're stopped here, that the arts community the companion section in section 3? They appear to is reeling. amend a section that has not yet been proclaimed — a The new definitions come in, in March. The- ap budget bill, 2008. Can the minister explain the purpose plications were called for in February. It seems to be for introducing this amendment? a complete…. Nobody's told about this, and it just shows that this government is in disarray. I think that Hon. C. Hansen: What this amendment does is that it the question that the minister should answer is: how provides for the…. This is in terms of section 2. I'll deal can he support, how can he rationalize, taking away with section 2. I know he was also referencing section 3, arts and culture opportunities for kids throughout this so I will actually deal with both of those in terms of what province? the proposed amendment is. Section 2 provides that the penalty section of the new Hon. R. Coleman: Same application, same applica- interactive digital media tax credit will not be repealed, tion period, a different change in criteria made March and in doing so it ensures that the penalty provision 5 so that people could understand it. Any organization with respect to the new interactive digital tax credit will that doesn't understand can call the branch and get an continue in effect after the regulation to repeal the cli- explanation. We won't make any apology that the arts mate action dividend is deposited. and culture money in the province of British Columbia In terms of section 3, it provides that only that part under the gaming grant thing is going to be focused of the penalty section with respect to the climate action on young people and youth in the province of British dividend tax credit will be repealed by regulation. This Columbia this year. That's where we're going to focus ensures that the penalty provision with respect to the new the money. interactive digital tax credit will continue in effect, again, after the regulation to repeal the dividend is deposited. [End of question period.] Sections 2 and 3 approved. Tabling Documents On section 4. Hon. M. de Jong: I table the 2009 annual report for ICBC. B. Ralston: This section amends legislation that just passed in the Budget Measures Implementation Act ear- Petitions lier in this session. There appears to have been a drafting oversight that impacted the northern and rural benefit, L. Krog: I rise to table a petition calling on the gov- depending on the level of taxation that one paid. Can ernment to stop the imposition of the HST, signed by the minister explain, if he might, the error that requires over 100 British Columbians. correction? 5776 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Hon. C. Hansen: The member is correct; it was an Hon. C. Hansen: In terms of corporate tax filings, oversight. This amendment that's before us today cor- those are administered by the Canada Revenue Agency. rects an error in each of the two schedules that set out That is something that was harmonized many decades the amounts to which the homeowners are entitled ago. The Canada Revenue Agency, of course, would be under the new northern and rural homeowner benefit. the recipient of the funds from the relative corporations. The error is that in the current schedules, that would All of the transfers that the province receives from the result in reduced taxes, in some cases below the intended CRA would come in the form of Canadian dollars. minimum amount of $350 or, in some cases, $100. These corrections ensure that these minimums continue to be Section 5 approved. applied consistently throughout the province. On section 6. Section 4 approved. B. Ralston: In this section, the description is that it On section 5. "provides for the advancement of an alternative argu- ment in support of an assessment at any time after the B. Ralston: This is a proposed amendment to the normal reassessment period." Can the minister give an Income Tax Act of the province, and it refers to "the func- example of how this might apply? tional currency tax reporting provisions of the Income Tax Act" of Canada. This was something that I was not The Chair: I recognize the member for Delta South, aware of and had to do some research on. Can the min- who seeks leave to make an introduction. ister explain briefly what "the functional currency tax reporting provisions of the Income Tax Act" are, how Leave granted. they work, and why this amendment is necessary? Introductions by Members [1435] V. Huntington: Joining us in the gallery today are 35 Hon. C. Hansen: We tried to make sure that we have grade 5 students from Southpointe Academy in Tsawwassen. consistency between the provincial Income Tax Act and The students are accompanied by seven of their parents and the federal act. The federal act has been changed to al- by their teacher Dr. Amrit Mangat. Would members please low for corporations to file in U.S. dollars, and we are join me in welcoming them to the House. changing our act, basically, to parallel the changes made by the federal parliament. Debate Continued

B. Ralston: I'd understood, then, that in addition to Hon. C. Hansen: Again, this is a change to allow for American dollars, the income tax could be filed in other consistency with the federal statutes. An example would currencies: the euro, pound sterling or the Australian be if the CRA is reviewing an assessment and they're dollar. Is that accurate? proceeding under one interpretation. If, after they get a ways through that assessment, there is a differing in- Hon. C. Hansen: Yes, that's correct. terpretation that may come forward, it allows them to consider that alternative interpretation as well. B. Ralston: Are there any implications for the tax that would be assessed and might accrue to the province by Sections 6 to 9 inclusive approved. virtue of this reporting provision? One thinks of cur- rency fluctuations. Is the tax calculated in the reporting On section 10. currency and then recalculated in Canadian dollars? Does that make the corporate tax received subject to B. Ralston: This section replaces section 33 and makes currency fluctuation? some changes to some technicalities in the application to the federal Income Tax Act provisions. Can the minister explain Hon. C. Hansen: Actually, it gives more certainty, the second one in the explanatory note? It says that it ap- more stability. This actually avoids some of the -uncer plies provisions to allow some Canadian-controlled private tainties that come as a result of currency fluctuations. corporations to pay quarterly income tax and quarterly instal- ments and to increase the instalment threshold to $3,000. B. Ralston: If there were a sizable group of corpor- [1440] ations who chose to avail themselves of this provision, Can the minister explain the purpose of that part of would the province avail itself of hedging opportunities the amendment? Is that, again, to have consistency with in currency markets? the federal act? Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5777

Hon. C. Hansen: Yes, this is to provide consistency reflects the policy intent of the B.C. training tax credit with the federal statutes and allows for the increase in program to provide a refundable training tax credit to all the threshold from a thousand dollars to $3,000, which individuals who obtain certification, including individ- would allow a corporation to apply for quarterly rather uals who obtain certification by successfully challenging than monthly instalments. the final exam for that particular trade. The amount of the certification tax credit is the same B. Ralston: Could the minister explain how the fourth amount that the individual would have received had that in the explanatory note, the provision that "enables a individual completed their trades training by graduat- corporation to reduce its…corporate income tax instal- ing as a registered apprentice. ment amounts by its provincial refundable tax credits" [1445] — how would that work? I'm assuming that there may be some disparity in a corporation's ability to use refund- B. Ralston: The minister has given the example of able tax credits, that they're on an annual basis, whereas receiving the training in the Armed Forces and also an the tax might be paid monthly or quarterly. Could the opportunity to receive the credit by simply challenging minister explain that? the exam. Are there any other instances in which that circumstance in this statute would apply? Hon. C. Hansen: Regardless of whether it's a quarterly filing or a monthly filing, if the corporation is entitled Hon. C. Hansen: Another example might be an indi- to those tax credits, they can deduct the proportionate vidual who received training in another country. We do share of the tax credits from that period's filing, and that have procedures in place whereby that credentialing can would be reconciled when the corporation submits its be recognized in British Columbia. But in some cases total annual filing at year-end. where that process cannot lead to a granting of a cer- tification, then this allows for a process whereby those Sections 10 to 17 inclusive approved. individuals could challenge the final exam for the trade and thereby get their certifications. On section 18. B. Ralston: Perhaps I just need a question of clarifica- B. Ralston: This section amends the definition of tion. The requirements say that the individual has to be "B.C. labour expenditure." Can the minister explain the "resident in British Columbia at the end of December 31 significance of the change in definition? of the taxation year." So is the minister speaking of a pro- gram where the prospective applicant to this program Hon. C. Hansen: It simply provides for a provision completes a course of training in another country, is then that a company can't claim the same labour expenditure resident in British Columbia by the end of the year and or cost as both a film tax credit and a digital interactive makes the application? Is that what is intended here, or media tax credit. am I misunderstanding what the minister is saying?

Sections 18 to 27 inclusive approved. Hon. C. Hansen: This provision for the credit would actually be…. Somebody would have to be paying in- On section 28. come tax in Canada to apply for the tax credit. So this would be in the case of somebody coming from another B. Ralston: In his introductory speech at second country — somebody that's come to British Columbia, reading, the minister offered a brief explanation of the established their residency and then would subsequently purpose of these amendments. Apparently, that was to apply pursuant to this section. align the tax credit with the programs that were offered. I'm wondering if he might offer a little bit more detail as B. Ralston: In subsection (2) of the proposed amend- to the purpose of these amendments. ment there's reference to level 1, level 2, level 3 and level 4 requirements. There's a different tax credit for each Hon. C. Hansen: What this amendment does is it level, and generally, the higher the level, the greater the provides for a training tax credit to individuals who suc- tax credit. Can the minister briefly explain what each cessfully pass the industry training requirements and of the levels was and the policy rationale for a greater receive certification in a trade. So some individuals re- credit for a higher level? ceive their trades training, for example, in the Armed Forces, but they are never registered as an apprentice Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, a level doesn't necessarily with the Industry Training Authority. correspond to one year of training. In some cases it can It also adds the certification tax credit for individuals. be less and in some cases more. For some trades and oc- The creation of the certification tax credit for individuals cupations, it could be two years towards completion of 5778 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

a certification. In other cases, particularly with some of "a permanent establishment in British Columbia at any the more traditional trades, it could be as much as four time during the taxation year." It suggests that that may levels. But that doesn't necessarily translate into four not be something that persists through the year. The years or two years, because each level can take longer in same term is also used in sub (d)(ii), the provision of some cases and in some cases shorter. eligible services to a corporation who has a permanent establishment in British Columbia. Sections 28 to 33 inclusive approved. I'm just interested in the issue of eligibility. There are some sections that set out conditions that preclude a On section 34. corporation from being eligible for the credit as well. [1455] B. Ralston: This part begins the interactive digital Can the minister explain that more briefly, or more media tax credit. The minister, again, set out some of substantially and assist, perhaps, in helping me to under- the basic principles in his speech at second reading. I'm stand that? wondering if he could, for this particular part, advise in broad terms what the purpose of the amendment is and Hon. C. Hansen: Again, as I indicated, this is a term what its financial implications are for those companies that's commonly used in income tax matters. I think if it or individuals who might choose to avail themselves of was not on the corporate side but on the individual side, this tax credit. we would use the term "permanent resident" or "has [1450] established a residency in the province." In the case of corporations, we talk about "permanent establishment." Hon. C. Hansen: This change is really to recognize Basically, if an organization or a corporation has a the convergence that's taking place within the film, permanent establishment in British Columbia, then digital and interactive media industry — that it's no they are obligated to pay taxes in British Columbia. It longer an industry that is really all about film, all about is only those companies that are paying taxes in British animation, and that side of it. Interactive digital media Columbia that are eligible for this credit. is really becoming increasingly an integral part of what we have traditionally thought of as the film industry in B. Ralston: As the minister will likely know, I think in British Columbia and, quite frankly, a great opportunity the Business Corporations Act some of the requirements for British Columbia to really be on the forefront of this to have a permanent establishment or a physical presence new convergence that's taking place. within the province were, I believe, amended, and one With every indication that we've seen from the in- would be able to incorporate within the province yet not dustry since making this announcement, that is exactly be required to have a permanent establishment or a head the case. Companies are quite excited about locating office in the province.I think that was canvassed to some in British Columbia specifically because of these rela- extent in the TILMA agreement. I'm just wondering tively minor changes that we have made. So it's really what the minimal requirement is to have a permanent to give these companies an incentive to locate in British establishment, given that it has…. Columbia, to grow in British Columbia and to create the I understand the tax implications. Are there any im- jobs in this industry, which are great jobs and, I think, a plications in terms of physical presence? As I recall, the big part of the economic future of the province. definition of residence was the place where one habitually slept from sort of the evening until the following mor- B. Ralston: In section 133, which is described as ning. I think that was one definition that I recall from "Eligibility for tax credit," sub (1)(b) reads: "the corpora- years ago. I'm interested in exploring that issue in a little tion has a permanent establishment in British Columbia bit more detail. at any time during the taxation year." Can the minister explain what is meant by that term, "permanent estab- Hon. C. Hansen: It would be a corporation that has lishment in British Columbia"? an office. They have people that are physically working in British Columbia. They have an establishment. Those Hon. C. Hansen: The term "a permanent establish- would all be factors in determining what's considered a ment in British Columbia" is an income tax term that is permanent establishment. used to determine the place of doing business. Yeah, it's that simple. B. Ralston: That helps me better understand it. In subsection (3) there are a number of corporations B. Ralston: I thank the minister for that answer. I that are ineligible. They appear to be related to different understand and would expect it's one of the criteria that alternate forms of the provision of capital — a labour- determines eligibility. I was hoping for a bit more meat on sponsored venture capital fund, an employee share those bones, if I can put it that way, given that it describes ownership plan, an employee venture capital corporation, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5779

a small business venture capital corporation, a business exchange was likely not to be as successful as if there were corporation registered under the Small Business Venture an exchange. Let's put it that way. They did make refer- Capital Act and any corporation that's controlled directly ence to Offsetters, as they're called.A n example was given or indirectly by any one of those corporations. of an offsetting company based out of the University of Can the minister explain the policy reason for excluding British Columbia, which I believe was the official offsetter this broad category of corporation from eligibility? of the 2010 Olympics. That all seemed to have been accomplished and that Hon. C. Hansen: This is really to ensure that a com- business up and running without the benefit of the kind pany doesn't avail themselves of more than one tax credit of tax relief or tax regime that appears to be being con- program. If they're involved with the scientific research templated in this legislation. experimental development tax credit program, the B.C. I'm wondering, given the caution that the report ex- venture capital program, the B.C. employee investment presses about the absence of an exchange and the fact program, or a corporation…. that a fairly, as I understand it, successful business is al- [1500] ready up and running without the benefit of this kind of If they are availing themselves of those other tax tax regime, why it's felt necessary to institute this kind of credit programs, they can't, in essence, double-dip and a tax regime for that kind of prospective business. also avail themselves of this labour tax credit. [1505]

Sections 34 and 35 approved. Hon. C. Hansen: We certainly recognize that there are initiatives that have already started in British On section 36. Columbia. The member mentioned Offsetters, which is a great organization. There's also the Pacific Carbon B. Ralston: We now embark on the discussion of the Trust that we've established, of course, which is a Crown International Financial Activity Act. I believe I'm on corporation of government that is also looking at the section 36. There are a number of definitions that are carbon-trading market. This is an area that we think has added to the definitions section: the international film potential, a huge opportunity for growth, well beyond distribution business, international patent business, and what is currently underway. then international carbon trading, international clean Clearly, some of the early players in this field are well technology, international digital media. positioned to be the leaders, but I think it's important that Can the minister explain the purpose for adding those the province actually show its leadership in saying that business activities to this international financial activity this is not just about the relatively small carbon-trading centre, the prospective business that the province hopes operations that we have in British Columbia today. Really, to gain and the basis for that view? there is the potential for some very significant growth in that sector, and we believe that these changes will facili- Hon. C. Hansen: We have identified three additional tate that. areas of international business activity that have great potential for the future. These are really new sectors B. Ralston: Well, I don't doubt there may well be op- where there are individuals globally who are highly portunities, depending particularly on what happens specialized in building these types of business activities. legislatively in the United States. But beyond a kind of, We believe that these are very desirable services to I guess, stereoscopic look at the landscape for this kind be offered from a British Columbia base and an oppor- of business, what evidence is there of any real likelihood tunity that, given our ability to attract some of these elite of these kinds of businesses being attracted to British specialists to the province, will mean that we can actually Columbia? build these sectors and create significant employment in The plan here seems to have been to suggest that they British Columbia in the years going forward. would be attracted by this kind of tax policy. Is there These are the international carbon trading and certifi- anything beyond what's contained in the report, which cation, the international clean technology business and is very fragmentary and tentative, that might suggest the international digital media distribution business. that this might come to pass? These are three areas we've identified where we believe British Columbia is in an ideal position to become a Hon. C. Hansen: We actually went out and sought the world leader in providing these business services to an advice of experts that understand some of these oppor- international market. tunities for the growth in the financial and international business sectors from a British Columbia base. The mem- B. Ralston: The report of the Vancouver International ber referenced the report of the steering committee, and Financial Sector Steering Committee, Phase 1 Report, sug- I think he's familiar with those individuals who served gested that certainly carbon-trading activity without an on the steering committee. Certainly, it was their sense 5780 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

that there is a market for this, that British Columbia is in You know, these are individuals who are, obviously, in a good position to attract this type of international busi- high demand, and for us to be able to attract one of them ness activity. has big economic impacts to the province in terms of job It's not just around the carbon trading itself, but it's creation, economic growth and, hence, tax generation. So also around the verification and certification of offsets, this is one of these things that by forgoing a bit of tax to which is something, again, that requires a very high level attract these individuals, we actually can generate a lot of specialization. We believe that some of the people more economic activity and more than make up for that globally that have been developing this expertise and forgone tax base that's given up. this specialization would be attracted to move to British These are individuals who are under demand, and we Columbia and to build those companies and those en- want to establish an environment and a tax regime that terprises from a British Columbia base, given these is more attractive than any of the other worldwide des- changes to this legislation. tinations that they may be considering.

B. Ralston: A similar question, then, about the B. Ralston: Well, the minister has framed his response clean technology business. We've heard much from the in terms of tax rate for individuals, and that's really a government about this in recent months and, I suppose, separate provision where the individual income tax years. Again, there is — I think many jurisdictions have would be forgiven 100 percent in the first two years, as I recognized this — a potential upside for growth in this understand it, stepping down to 75 percent in the third sector, but once again, why was it felt necessary? year, 50 percent in the fourth year and 25 percent in the I referenced in my speech at second reading the reference fifth year. on page 11 of the report to the international income tax But the provisions that are proposed for the corporate rate, which would be, if this legislation were to pass and tax rate, as I understand it, don't step down. They are a corporation in these areas were to avail itself of these in the manner that's been described here. Certainly, the rates…. The rate in Vancouver would be 16.2 percent; policy is that if this activity continued to qualify, they in Beijing, 25 percent; Hong Kong, 17.5 percent; Seoul, would be permanently at this very reduced rate relative 35 percent; Singapore, 18 percent; and New York, 39.9 to Beijing, Hong Kong, Seoul, Singapore. percent. So I'm looking for the minister to explain, if he will, [1510] the reason why the corporate tax rate for these activities, Can the minister explain why, in order to…? I don't desirable as they may be, needs to be so much lower in disagree that these sectors are potential growth sectors, the view of the minister in order to attract companies but can the minister explain why it's felt that it's necessary to come to British Columbia and to remain in British to offer a corporate tax rate at that level, when one would Columbia. be, I think, two-thirds of the tax rate of Beijing? Is that really the policy of the government in terms of the tax Hon. C. Hansen: I apologize to the member. I was environment that the government hopes to create here answering that previous question in the context of the in British Columbia? individual specialist. But he's quite right. When you It would seem to be out of sync with certainly many start looking at the corporations that we are trying to other North American jurisdictions, at the very least, attract, the same principles apply. You know, what we're who are our direct competitors. And given the differ- trying to do is attract companies that otherwise would ences between Chinese society, average incomes, tax not be coming to British Columbia, and that does produce regime, health systems and all the rest of it, one wonders a whole range of economic activity that otherwise would why this level of taxation would be the one chosen. not happen in this province. [1515] Hon. C. Hansen: First of all, I think the calibre and Just to make it clear, this pertains to international the specialization of the individuals that we're trying to business activity. It is not domestic business activity. The attract are unique, and there are a limited number of tax concession is to those companies that are conducting people globally that have this expertise that we would international business activity from a British Columbia be seeking out. base. That is the type of business activity that really But just to have one of these experts come and work could be located anywhere in the world. We want it to from a base in British Columbia in turn generates con- be located in British Columbia because we want to make siderable numbers of other jobs, whether it's jobs in sure that all of those ancillary jobs come with it. the accounting professions or the legal professions or whether it's the back-end office jobs or whether it's the B. Ralston: I understand the principle that the minister other jobs that come along because of the activity that is enunciating, and I understand the policy objective in is attracted to British Columbia as a result of attracting that sense, but I'm a bit more focused on the rate. I'm one of these key specialists. wondering why, for the rate that's been selected and the Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5781

comparisons that are made by the committee, it's felt marketing efforts to attract these companies to come that it's necessary to be a corporate tax rate — as they to British Columbia and, hence, create the jobs in this say in this report on page 11 — that's two-thirds of the province. rate of Beijing. [1520] I think that would startle most people in British When he mentioned Laffer…. I think Laffer actually Columbia, even if it is a business that's externally focused predates Ronald Reagan by quite a few years. When I and operating an international business where its in- was studying economics at the University of Victoria, I coming supply and its customers are internationally know, we were certainly studying the works of Laffer at based. I'm interested in the policy rationale for the se- that time. I hate to admit it, but that predated Ronald lection of that and in the felt necessity for that disparity Reagan's time in the presidency. in the corporate tax rate. D. Donaldson: I'd like to explore this section a little Hon. C. Hansen: I think this is one of those examples bit further with the minister. I agree that there's potential where, by establishing a lower tax rate, we can actually for growth in this sector, but I'm trying to get at some of produce more economic activity and hence result in the intention, the imagining of what that could look like more taxes that would flow to the provincial coffers to that this section's based on, specifically in regards to the pay for the programs and activities that we rely on. international carbon-trading and certification business. Having a rate that is lower than other jurisdictions From the budget, the purpose of this international fi- around the world is part of our marketing effort, using nancial activity program is that it "provides tax refunds for these tax rates which we have today. All we're doing is B.C. corporate income tax paid on qualifying international broadening the scope of it. Having these tax rates in financial activities."N ow certification of trading of carbon place today for those corporations that are eligible under credits is included in this definitions section. today's rules is a pretty powerful tool in the toolbox for The definition of "international carbon trading and the folks at the International Financial Centre to reach certification business" includes "an international carbon out and to attract these companies to come to British trading and certification business that meets the require- Columbia. ments of the regulations." Could the minister describe What we're doing is adding three more sectors to that. what the regulations are that have been referred to here We think that that will allow us to be even more suc- and what they say? cessful at attracting international companies focused on international business activity to British Columbia and Hon. C. Hansen: International carbon trading and to create those jobs in British Columbia. certification are very much in their infancy today. By al- lowing us to shape that with regulation, it allows us to B. Ralston: Well, there was a theory in the Reagan years change as that industry matures and evolves. called the Laffer curve, which adopted the very premises I think what's very important…. If we want to ac- that the minister sets out. If that were the case, then, and if tually develop British Columbia as a base of operations that were the only determining factor in a business deci- — the preferred base of operations, hopefully — for inter- sion to locate in a jurisdiction, then the financial activity national carbon trading, we need to make sure that we are centre focused on international banking would have been in tune and linked into the emerging definitions and the much more successful than it has been to date. emerging standards that are being sought after by other Again, I understand the language that the minister jurisdictions around the world, which will be looking for is using about competitive tax advantage, but what ex- companies to undertake carbon verification and certifi- plains the felt necessity for this, which — I think most cation for carbon offsets. This, by doing it in regulation, people would agree — is a large disparity, a big reduc- allows us that flexibility as this industry emerges. tion from the rate in Beijing, according to the report from the experts that the minister presumably solicited D. Donaldson: The minister can correct me if I'm the opinion of? wrong in my interpretation of his answer, which is that I'm just wondering about the policy reasons for that the regulations referred to in 36(f) are not yet in exist- wide disparity between the corporate tax rate for these ence in B.C. There are no regulations, but he's referring activities in Beijing and the corporate tax rates for to them coming in at some point. British Columbia. Hon. C. Hansen: Yes, that is correct. They are yet to Hon. C. Hansen: I think the basic principle is that this be drafted. is attracting international business activity that other- wise would not come to British Columbia and that we D. Donaldson: The budget document, in reference to are establishing a tax rate for these companies that is this, the International Financial Activity Act, discussed very attractive. It's an important part of our international details of the qualifying international transactions, and 5782 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

"any required certification process will be provided in policies around offsets in B.C.? Can you describe some the coming months." Certification is also mentioned of those offsets in B.C. that could be traded under this in 36(f) around international carbon-trading and cer- section? tification businesses. Could the minister describe the certification process that's been referred to here? Hon. C. Hansen: Our involvement with the establish- [1525] ment of the Pacific Carbon Trust has given us a bit of a window on this industry in terms of the opportunities Hon. C. Hansen: The reference that the member that are and will be presenting themselves globally for makes to the budget documents is actually a broader the growth in this industry. context. It's not just…. The reference to certification in [1530] the budget document on page 82 is not simply around It has achieved a certain level of maturity in Europe carbon offsets or carbon trading.I t actually could be in a today, but we think there is tremendous growth that we broader context of clean technology, for example, that…. will see in North America, particularly with some of Really, there's a whole range of certifications that may the new directions that they're exploring in the United be developed, for example, by the Energy, Mines and States. This gives us an opportunity to really build that Petroleum Resources Ministry, or it may be under the expertise right here. carbon trading, as we've been discussing previously. In terms of the experience that we have to date, we are still very much at the early stages with the Pacific D. Donaldson: The minister is discussing the poten- Carbon Trust, but it certainly has given us a window on tial growth in these sectors, and we're talking about the the industry to the extent that we know that we have an carbon-trading sector. He mentioned activity — bringing opportunity to build this. that activity to B.C. So I would like to ask the minister: what is the activity in B.C. around carbon trading that D. Donaldson: I appreciate that this is new and trying underlies this? to get in on the leading edge of what could be, as you de- I realize this is international trading, but obviously scribe, a potential growth sector. Along those lines, the trying to attract people who are international traders minister might be aware that there's been some debate to B.C. is based on B.C. having some expertise in this about the efficacy of carbon-trading systems in addressing area. That's according to the Vancouver International the underlying issue. I know that this section deals with Financial Sector Steering Committee Phase 1 Report. trying to capitalize on the potential growth in that area, But what is the intention of this section and of this act? but that potential growth is based on a carbon-trading sys- This has to be based on some visioning by the government tem. Was there an analysis done on the debate around the on what carbon trading looks like in B.C. So what are some carbon-trading system before the drafting of this section? of the carbon-trading opportunities that this represents? Hon. C. Hansen: We have certainly looked at, globally, Hon. C. Hansen: As I mentioned, this is an industry some of the other initiatives, forays into carbon trading that really is in its infancy still, so it is obviously going to and verification and certification. I think that's why we change and evolve. But the kind of business activity that recognized that whether it's the PacificC arbon Trust that we envision that would be generated from these provi- we are launching or whether it's international business ac- sions might be a broker, a firm that is actually buying tivity that could flow from this particular process, we need offsets on behalf of other companies. to ensure that British Columbia builds a stellar reputation It could be, for example, a company in the United for the verification side of this. There are standards that States that wants to buy quality offsets that are verifiable need to be set, that need to be met so that globally, if any by the highest of accounting standards, and those offsets organization is embarking on trading or certification…. might wind up being in the United States as well, or they They want to know that British Columbia is synonymous might be somewhere else on the globe. They might even with quality and is synonymous with accountability when be elsewhere, perhaps, in Canada. But that can be done it comes to achieving the objectives that are desired. from a British Columbia base. We recognize that this is a very unique skills set that B. Ralston: Just to follow on the questions from the the individuals have that are involved with this type of member for Stikine, one of the areas that I've heard ex- verification and certification process, and it is that type pressed as a potential future area for carbon trading of business that we want to attract to British Columbia, would be offsetting tree planting in British Columbia. because we think we have a great environment in which The minister has referenced Pacific Carbon Trust. I'm to grow that industry here. not sure that that's an activity that they have yet drawn into their business plan. D. Donaldson: The buying of the offsets — is this sec- But given the international focus of this legislation, tion, this act, this initiative, linked to other government would offsetting activity such as replanting of forests in Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5783

British Columbia qualify as an international business in resident in British Columbia, and it also is a significant the definition section of this act, for example? job generator.

Hon. C. Hansen: While I don't have as much firsthand Sections 36 and 37 approved. knowledge of the standards that are being looked at globally around carbon offsets as,I think, we mentioned On section 38. in the estimates debate, I noted for the member that there is the cabinet committee on climate action. I'm not B. Ralston: Section 38 amends section 2 and "adds a member of that committee, and I know that members an additional restriction to the international financial of that committee would be much more familiar with the activities to exclude lending activities conducted with international discussions that are going on with regard to related parties." Has this been an issue in terms of the how reforestation or afforestation fits into carbon offset regulation of any businesses that are here, or is this just schemes globally. in the interests of a comprehensive piece of legislation? That is something that is certainly being worked on, but I think what we want to make sure is that as we Hon. C. Hansen: TheI nternational Financial Activity Act, develop the standards for this, they are standards that now to be named the International Business Activity Act, will be respected globally. As to how exactly reforesta- is not aimed at domestic transactions or domestic busi- tion and afforestation can fit into that are issues that still ness but at what is, in fact, truly international business. need to be determined. [1540] This amendment that we are bringing in place under B. Ralston: In the definition section there's a new def- 38(d) is really to ensure that there are not loopholes to inition which is described as an IB specialist. That's an that that would provide for the appearance of inter- international business specialist. It refers to section 14 of national business activity when, in fact, none existed. the current act, which talks of an IFA specialist, an inter- national financial specialist. Sections 38 to 40 inclusive approved. [1535] Can the minister tell the House how many IFA spe- On section 41. cialists there are under the present act? B. Ralston: This section creates new categories of Hon. C. Hansen: Currently, there are none. There have specialists, as they're called. The minister alluded to this been two that have taken advantage of these provisions. earlier when he said it was desirable to attract certain highly skilled or uniquely skilled individuals who run B. Ralston: I wanted to ask a question about the these kinds of businesses and that that would have an international digital media distribution business. I'm economic benefit to the province. presuming that adding this definition to the list of the This section permits the application for registration of schedule of activities has some basis and is related to administrative support specialists and executive specialists, the earlier part of this bill, which hopes to attract digital specialists in designated international business. It would media to British Columbia. Is that the basis on which this not seem — and I don't intend to denigrate the work that is potentially added as a topic or a subject of the act? people in administrative support do — at first reading, to fit the definition that the minister spoke of earlier. Hon. C. Hansen: Just as we had a very active and suc- As I understand it, the successful application for regis- cessful film production industry in British Columbia tration in this area would trigger the income tax rebate over the past decades, what we saw was, basically, the of 100 percent for the first two years and 75 percent and completion of those films, and then they would wind up so on. Is the purpose of this section to permit a success- being distributed out of some other centre globally. ful applicant as an executive specialist to bring with him The same is true for digital media. We've had a strong his or her executive support team? interactive digital media industry in B.C. for numbers Is that the purpose of this section? Otherwise, I of years. Typically, when those products are completed, confess that I don't understand the purpose for this pro- they then go to some other centre for the distribution posed designation. side of the business. We believe that that's an important area that can grow. Hon. C. Hansen: Again, this is still targeted at special- We don't have any significant distribution being done ists. It is not a provision that just says that if you've got out of British Columbia today, so any of that business that administrative staff, they can come in under this provision. we can attract to British Columbia would be a net gain It is still very limited, and it does allow for administra- for the province. That, in turn, has a couple of implica- tive support and backup office service specialists for an tions. It helps to encourage intellectual property to stay international financial business. Again, this is not about 5784 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

somebody coming in to provide a domestic service. This is to carve out of their existing personnel an internation- purely aimed at international business activity but having ally oriented unit that would qualify for this centre and that done from a base within British Columbia. the tax reductions that would come with that? One can imagine…. For example, there are shipping B. Ralston: I understand the intention. I suppose the companies which locate here because there's a similar practical difficulty that may be encountered is an ability federal law that forgives a certain amount of income tax to describe the functions as unique and specialized to that or corporate tax as well. So one can easily envisage that degree. I gather from the response to previous questions there might be certain highly specialized individuals that these definitions in their detail will be appended to and law firms or accounting firms, for example, whose the act in the form of regulation. Is that how it's intended activity would be solely internationally oriented and to do it? Is this the exhaustive definition of the qualifying might well qualify, at least in that respect. Can the min- individuals who might make these applications? ister explain how that might work? [1545] [1550]

Hon. C. Hansen: I think, first of all, individuals who Hon. C. Hansen: The individuals that would qualify would qualify for this provision would have a min- for this would have to be new to Canada. imum salary requirement of $100,000 a year. Also, the Commissioner of Income Tax has the ability to go in and Sections 41 to 48 inclusive approved. request information regarding the international business activities that are being undertaken by these individuals On section 49. to basically ensure that this is purely international busi- ness and not something that is really domestic business B. Ralston: I hope I was quick enough. I just wanted under the auspices of an international business activity. to…. It might have been section 48. Just let me look at I think there are the checks and balances in place to my note here. ensure that we are attracting these specialists in these There were some changes to the definition of "inter- areas and that we achieve the objective of the act and national patent business" and how the income for that the changes, and that is to ensure that we can build these was calculated. I wanted to ask the minister how many industries in British Columbia and ensure that there are qualifying businesses there are at present that meet that job opportunities not just directly involved with the definition of an international patent business. That was an companies that we are talking about but also with regard amendment, as the minister may recall, that was brought to the service sector industries, whether it's the legal or in, I believe, in the 2006 budget but perhaps the 2007 accounting professions, etc., that would be servicing budget. these companies. Hon. C. Hansen: I don't have that specific informa- B. Ralston: In section 13.1(3) there's a limit of four tion, but we believe it's probably two or three. specialists to be certified under that provision, and under section 13.2, for executive specialists, two or more. Can Sections 49 to 52 inclusive approved. the minister explain the thinking that's led to the draft- ing of those subsections? On section 53.

Hon. C. Hansen: I think, going back to our earlier dis- B. Ralston: Can the minister explain, under the cussions, our intent is to make sure that we can attract existing refunds of income tax under this section of the specialists or the individuals who are key players in the IFAA, the existing section, what dollar amount of growing an industry in British Columbia. This is not personal income tax has been refunded, and is there an about saying that a company can come and establish in estimate? I appreciate that may be difficult to give, given British Columbia and everybody on the payroll is going the uncertainties of future business. But is there any to get this specialized tax treatment. It is meant to be modelling or anticipated number as to future refunds of limited to those key individuals. personal income tax that might be accorded under this In the case of the one section, as the member noted, provision? it is limited to two individuals for that company, and in the other case, it's four individuals. It's really meant just Hon. C. Hansen: As the member knows, the scope to put a cap on how many can take advantage of these of the provisions in the act up until now has been quite provisions. limited, but in terms of the international financial spe- cialists, the uptake was small. We believe with these B. Ralston: Is it intended or is it expected that existing changes that we're making, we will get better uptake go- law firms or accounting firms, for example, might choose ing forward, but the total in terms of forgone revenue to Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5785

date is about $100,000. When I say "forgone," the argu- Debate Continued ment is that that's revenue that would not have gone anyways, because it's only because of the International Hon. C. Hansen: As we indicated earlier, the refunds Financial Activity Act that we were able to attract these to date under the international financial specialists pro- individuals to British Columbia. gram have been very small. So normally, what we would Going forward, we have not done projections. We will do with the personal income tax side…. Sorry. As the be examining this over the coming years of rollout of member noted, on the corporate income tax side we these new provisions to determine what uptake would actually document the refunds under the International be expected, and from that basis, we'd be able to do the Financial Activity Act as a reduction from our corporate projections. income tax revenues. [1555] On the personal side — because we're talking about Again, it's not that we will lose revenue in the future. billions of dollars of personal income tax and a reduction It's either a question of whether we're going to attract from that of $100,000 over five years is actually a fairly these individuals and this activity or not. So regardless small amount — should the amount that we would be as to whether it's ten individuals or a hundred individ- refunding on the personal income tax side become sub- uals that take us up on these provisions, it would not stantive, we would look at reporting it under that section. result in a decline in revenues but only an upside. B. Ralston: Just to follow up, can the minister explain B. Ralston: Can the minister advise where, in the fu- the disparity between the corporate income tax rebates ture, the refunds that might be paid under this provision under this program and the absence of any personal in- would be reported? come tax? Obviously, there were companies engaged in Secondly, I just wanted him to confirm…. There does the business that qualified but chose not to — for reasons seem to be a disparity between the personal tax refunds best known to themselves, perhaps — have a specialist claimed and the refund of corporate income tax on apply and get the personal income tax rebate. page…. In the September budget update, I'm advised, [1600] the International Financial Activity Act refunds of cor- Is there anything to that? Is there any explanation for porate income tax totalled about $20 million in '08-09, that, or is it simply that the companies chose not to apply? estimated to be $5 million in '09-10, although they had assumed about $20 million in the September budget Hon. C. Hansen: Hopefully I've interpreted the mem- and are estimated to total $10 million in this year and ber's question properly. There's nothing that says that if the next two. you have a company that qualifies for the tax refunds First of all, then, where would the personal refunds be under this act, it would automatically mean that there reported? Secondly, can the minister confirm those fig- would also be individuals with that company who would ures as to refunds of corporate income tax? Given that qualify for the income tax provisions. So you could have, there would appear to be corporate activity, can he ex- for example, a company that qualifies for the corporate plain the disparity between that and the absence of any income tax benefit, but nobody in the company qualifies specialists making the personal claims? for the personal income tax side of it.

J. Brar: Madam Chair, I seek leave to make an intro- Sections 53 to 61 inclusive approved. duction. On section 62. Leave granted. B. Ralston: This initiates a new series, or at least a Introductions by Members single amendment, to the Land Tax Deferment Act. The minister touched upon this in his speech at second J. Brar: Visiting us today is a group of students from reading. Can the minister explain the purpose of this Frost Road Elementary School in Surrey-Fleetwood, the amendment and what its effect will be? best school in the city of Surrey. There are 75 grade 5 students, and they are accompanied by their teacher Ms. Hon. C. Hansen: This amendment provides that a Kerry Schwab. There are 20 parents and other adults property tax deferment agreement is not terminated with them as well. They are here to watch the debate and where a portion of the owner's interest in the property, also see how parliamentary democracy works. I will ask subject to the agreement, is transferred to the spouse of the members from both sides to please make them feel the owner subject to an agreement amending the ori- welcome. ginal property tax deferment agreement. This is really to provide for more flexibility when the [C. Trevena in the chair.] title to the property is transferred between spouses. As it 5786 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

currently is worded, it would require that the entire tax Hon. C. Hansen: Several years ago this Legislature that has been forgiven would have to be repaid and then gave the authority to TransLink to apply a parking tax a new application for deferment be applied. In the case in Metro Vancouver. While this tax was determined and of transfers between spouses, we believe that it is appro- designated by TransLink under that delegated authority, priate to provide this flexibility. the process of collecting the tax was provided through the Social Service Tax Act. B. Ralston: Is this to cover the case where one spouse With our initiative to repeal the Social Service Tax Act, transfers the entire ownership of the property to another that mechanism will no longer exist. Therefore, these spouse and the agreement then continues? Or is it de- series of amendments establish the ability for TransLink signed to cover the case where one spouse is on title and to collect their own tax rather than having it collected transfers ownership to the other spouse and they're joint by the province. owners of the property after the transfer? There are two different situations. Is it intended to apply to one, the B. Ralston: Perhaps the minister can confirm this: as other or both? I understand it, the revenue will go to TransLink, but the [1605] provincial portion of the HST will be added on top of that and will go to the province. Can the minister con- Hon. C. Hansen: This is to provide for a spouse being firm that? added to the title. As long as the original owner who is a party to the tax deferment agreement continues to Hon. C. Hansen: This tax is totally separate from the have at least a partial ownership of the property, then HST tax, but the goods and services tax as it currently the spouse can be added to title without triggering the exists — and, hence, the HST as it will exist as of July 1 — will be charged in addition. That portion will be col- requirement for total repayment. lected by the Canada Revenue Agency, as it will collect all of the HST, and this portion will be collected directly Sections 62 to 64 inclusive approved. by TransLink. On section 65. B. Ralston: Regardless of who collects it, will a portion of that, then, flow to the province? B. Ralston: These are several amendments to the Logging Tax Act, and I understood from the minister's Hon. C. Hansen: Yes. All of the HST that is collected in explanation at second reading that this was to match or British Columbia will be collected by the Canada Revenue accord with the section with the Income Tax Act. Do I Agency. They, in turn, will return to the province ofB ritish have that right, or can the minister confirm that? Columbia the provincial government's share. TheH ST on parking will be a part of those dollars that flow from the Hon. C. Hansen: This is similar to the changes that we CRA to the province. made to the Income Tax Act, but this is really to provide [1610] authority for…. It's to avoid the circumstances where we have to ask for the same information twice. If I can just B. Ralston: I just want to confirm, then, that as of read this explanation of the amendment, it's to author- January 1, 2010, the effective tax rate on parking in Metro ize the disclosure of relevant logging tax information. Vancouver increased from 12 percent to 27.05 percent Otherwise, the same information must be requested — that's because TransLink's portion is being increased — twice from the same person, once for the purposes of the and that on July 1, 2010, when the HST is implemented, Logging Tax Act and once for the purposes of the Forest unless there's a change of heart somewhere, it will in- Act. crease again to 35.52 percent, which by the calculation I'm provided with here, will mean an extra 8.74 percent Sections 65 to 68 inclusive approved. tax on parking, not just the 7 percent nominal amount.

On section 69. Hon. C. Hansen: What was in place prior to January 1 was a tax on parking in Metro Vancouver, the 7 percent B. Ralston: This amends the Social Service Tax Act parking tax that was the TransLink's tax collected through in relation to the purchase price of a parking right, and our social service tax collection mechanisms. The 5 per- there's a series of amendments that follow. Part of the cent GST was applied on top of that, so that total amount purpose here is to transfer to TransLink the authority to was slightly over 12 percent as a result of the GST being collect the parking tax within its jurisdiction. Can the applied on top of the 7 percent TransLink tax. minister explain the purpose of this series of amend- Effective January 1 TransLink chose to increase that ments and their effect? rate from 7 percent to 21 percent, so what happens today Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5787

is that the 5 percent goods and services tax, of course, the Peace Canyon, opened, followed by the Revelstoke still exists, and it is on top of the 21 percent TransLink dam in 1984. tax. As of July 1 the adoption of the harmonized sales More than a series of electricity projects, the two-river tax will mean that there will be 12 percent tax applied system was the backbone of B.C.'s industrial strategy on top of the 21 percent TransLink tax. and made possible a whole series of economic activities. Energy from the Peace and Columbia has made possible Sections 69 to 83 inclusive approved. our forest industry and our mining industry, industries that have opened up our province and sustained a high Title approved. quality of life for families and communities across B.C. Over the long term, the single most important mar- Hon. C. Hansen: I move that the committee rise and ket advantage for our industries has been our incredibly report the bill complete without amendment. competitively-priced electricity rates. Competitive power rates have allowed entrepreneurs to innovate, to grow new Motion approved. businesses and to thrive in domestic and export markets. That's helped our province and helped B.C. families. The committee rose at 4:13 p.m. B.C. is blessed with enormous untapped clean energy potential that allows us to build on the two-rivers legacy, The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. to create new wealth and jobs in communities across British Columbia while lowering greenhouse gas emis- Report and sions at home and beyond B.C. borders. Third Reading of Bills TheC lean Energy Act builds on the 2007 energy plan, the 2008 climate action plan and the recommendations Bill 19 — Finance Statutes of the Green Energy Advisory Task Force. In November Amendment Act (No. 2), 2010 2009 government appointed the Green Energy Advisory Task Force to recommend strategic action for turning Bill 19, Finance Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), British Columbia's clean power potential into real eco- 2010, reported complete without amendment, read a nomic, environmental and social benefits for British third time and passed. Columbians. When the task force reported to us in January, one Hon. I. Chong: I call second reading of Bill 17, the of its main messages was: "Clean energy will be one Clean Energy Act. of this century's driving economic and environmental forces. British Columbia has tremendous opportunities Second Reading of Bills to leverage its clean energy resources and clean technol- ogy sector and stimulate economic development and Bill 17 — CLEAN ENERGY ACT environmental improvements throughout the province." TheC lean Energy Act responds to these opportunities Hon. B. Lekstrom: Hon. Speaker, it is my pleasure to and establishes a long-term vision for British Columbia move second reading of Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act. to become a clean energy powerhouse. It sets out 16 This government has set out a new vision to be a leading specific energy objectives that will guide and align gov- North American supplier of low-carbon energy and ernment, B.C. Hydro and the British Columbia Utilities technologies and clean, reliable and competitively priced Commission in advancing British Columbia's energy power. The Clean Energy Act is a key step in achieving vision. this vision. British Columbia has a proud history of producing [C. Trevena in the chair] clean, reliable electricity at rates that are among the low- est in North America. This legacy is the result of a vision Through this act these energy objectives are legally of British Columbia's leaders 50 years ago and a vision tied to B.C. Hydro's planning requirements, decision- that helped build and shape our province. making by the BCUC and regulatory authorities in the [1615] act. B.C. Hydro will be required to have regard to these The vision of W.A.C. Bennett 50 years ago led to the objectives in developing its plans. These objectives must development of hydroelectric projects on the Peace and be used by the B.C. Utilities Commission in performing Columbia, the two-river system. its role, and in particular, the Utilities Commission will When it was completed in 1968, the W.A.C. Bennett be required to consider and be guided by these princi- dam was the largest earth-fill structure ever built.I t was ples and these objectives. followed by the Mica dam, one of the Columbia River There are various regulation-making authorities set out projects. Then in 1980 a second dam on the Peace system, in the act that either must be or can be tied specifically 5788 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

to these objectives. Key among the objectives are ensur- The Clean Energy Act also gives consumers and util- ing that B.C. is self-sufficient in electricity once again, ities new tools to better manage electricity use and save achieving higher levels of conservation and a greater on power bills. The act includes a renewed commitment share of energy from clean and renewable resources, en- to smart meters and smart grids. B.C. Hydro is automat- suring B.C.'s ratepayers continue to benefit from heritage ing, modernizing and upgrading its electricity grid and assets, meeting B.C.'s greenhouse gas–reduction targets, metering system and is required by the Clean Energy encouraging First Nations and rural communities to use Act to replace all of its 1.8 million customer meters with and develop clean and renewable resources, economic solid state smart electricity meters by the end of 2012. development and job creation, becoming a net exporter Smart meters include two-way communication, en- and a leading supplier of clean and renewable energy to able in-home displays and provide customers with western North America. much more detailed information about their electricity B.C.'s actions to implement the clean energy power- use, and when customers get better data about how their house strategy will focus on three areas: meeting the electricity use affects their bills, they get interested. You long-term electricity needs of British Columbians at low can see it with other purchases. People will drive past rates, harnessing British Columbia's clean power po- three service stations to buy gas from one that charges tential to create jobs in every region, and strengthening two cents a litre less because they can see the price. environmental stewardship and reducing greenhouse The smart grid will also be critical to manage the char- gas emissions. ging requirements of electric vehicles as more and more The Clean Energy Act strengthens self-sufficiency by of these penetrate the market. A single vehicle charging at placing the commitment into legislation and by requir- 220 volts can double a household's peak-power usage, so ing B.C. Hydro to acquire an additional 3,000 gigawatt it will be critical to make sure that they don't plug into the hours of electricity by no later than 2020, referred to as grid at 6 p.m. Smart meters make it possible for pricing insurance. Over the next 20 years, we expect our electri- that varies by time of use so that homeowners can be en- city demand to grow between 20 and 40 percent. couraged to charge their vehicles in off-peak hours. [1620] Government is also playing a key role in supporting Achieving self-sufficiency and meeting growing conservation and efficiency through energy codes and demand will require a renewed emphasis on energy ef- standards for homes, buildings, appliances and equip- ficiency and conservation and major new investments ment and by renewing the LiveSmart energy retrofit by the public sector and private sector in B.C.'s electri- with an additional $35 million. city system. But even with aggressive new conservation targets, Conservation and minimizing electricity waste will meeting future energy needs will require new invest- continue to be the cornerstones of achieving long- ments in the electricity system. British Columbia has term electricity self-sufficiency and low rates now and benefited for decades from the investments in hydro into the future. The 2007 energy plan set an aggressive infrastructure made in the 1950s, '60s and '70s. It's time conservation target for B.C. Hydro that required the now for new investments and an expansion of B.C.'s utility to meet 50 percent of its load growth through heritage assets to ensure that future generations of conservation. British Columbians benefit as we did. B.C. Hydro's Power Smart program, one of the most British Columbia is planning to build major genera- successful energy conservation programs in North tion and transmission infrastructure on a scale not seen America, has been delivering energy conservation pro- since the Revelstoke dam was completed in 1984. Site grams at homes, businesses and industry since its launch C and new turbines at Mica and Revelstoke will ensure back in 1989. a source of clean, reliable, competitively priced power Since the 2007 energy plan, Power Smart has been for decades to come. They will also continue to provide kicked into overdrive and has helped consumers achieve B.C. with the long-term economic advantage of afford- over $150 million in bill savings, and annual energy sav- able electricity prices. ings have grown to approximately 1,800 gigawatt hours A major expansion of the transmission system, the per year. That is the equivalent to powering almost northwest transmission line, will electrify the Highway 168,000 homes. Conservation also supports local jobs 37 corridor. and economic growth, with Power Smart initiatives cre- On April 19 Premier Campbell and I announced that ating 6,400 jobs each year. the Site C project will move forward into detailed en- But we will need to be even more aggressive with vironmental assessments and reviews. By building Site energy efficiency and conservation. The Clean Energy C, we will be building the next generation of power on Act includes a new commitment to meet 66 percent of the Peace River, taking advantage of the W.A.C. Bennett B.C. Hydro's future incremental power demand from dam and the Williston reservoir behind it. conservation and efficiency improvements by 2020, an Subject to approvals, Site C will be a source of clean, increase from the current target of 50 percent. renewable electricity for more than 100 years. It will Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5789

produce 30 percent of the power of the Bennett dam The Clean Energy Act also protects the benefits of with only 5 percent of the reservoir area. As a source both new and existing heritage assets by reinforcing the of firm energy, Site C will facilitate the development of existing prohibition against selling or disposing of herit- clean energy projects by providing additional capacity age assets and strengthening it by adding new heritage to back up intermittent resources such as wind and run- assets to the list: Site C, Mica and Revelstoke dam ex- of-the-river hydro. pansions, and B.C. Hydro's purchase of one-third of the [1625] Waneta dam and generating facility. Site C will provide lasting economic and social bene- By law, the low-rate benefits that come from B.C.'s fits for northern communities, aboriginal groups and existing and future heritage assets will flow exclusively the province. It will create an estimated 7,650 construc- to British Columbians and will not be used to subsidize tion jobs — those are direct construction jobs — and foreign power sales. up to 35,000 direct and indirect jobs through all stages In addition to Crown investments, new independ- of the project. Construction of Site C will be subject to ent power projects will also be needed to achieve the regulatory approvals and to ensuring that the Crown's self-sufficiency requirements. The clean and renew- constitutional duties to First Nations are met. able electricity and technology sector has contributed The Revelstoke and Mica dams are key heritage assets significantly to the development of British Columbia's located on B.C. Hydro's Columbia River system, and both electricity system, and the Clean Energy Act creates can be expanded with no impact on the reservoirs. The new opportunities for investments, jobs and economic Mica generating station began operating in 1977 with four growth in every region of our province. of the planned six turbines. B.C. Hydro is planning to add Since the late 1980s the private sector has developed two 500-megawatt turbines to complete the station. 63 independent power projects in B.C. that account The Revelstoke generating station began operating in for approximately 14 percent of British Columbia's do- 1984 — again, with four of the potential six units, like mestic electricity requirements. These projects have Mica. The fifth unit should be completed by the fall of contributed more than $1 billion to the provincial gross this year, 2010. B.C. Hydro plans to add one 500-mega- domestic product and created more than 11,000 person- watt turbine to the sixth and last bay. years of employment. The expansions of Mica and Revelstoke are some of The Clean Energy Act will expedite B.C. Hydro's elec- the lowest-cost capacity projects available to be built in tricity purchase agreements with clean and renewable North America. They will both be required, to meet do- electricity producers to secure sufficient supplies of mestic needs in future. additional clean, renewable electricity that will ensure The northwest transmission line, orNTL , will electrify electricity self-sufficiency by 2016 and beyond. the Highway 37 corridor by extending B.C.'s high- B.C. Hydro will be required to advance its acquisition voltage transmission grid to the region. Northwestern of an additional 3,000 gigawatt hours of electricity by British Columbia has 2,000 megawatts of green energy 2020 instead of by 2026 — beyond the amount speci- potential, and the NTL will create new opportunities fied in its base electricity supply obligations for for renewable power producers to connect their clean self-sufficiency by 2016. energy to the grid. [1630] The project will provide clean electricity to support New energy projects approved under the 2008 Clean industrial developments in the area and will reduce Power Call to acquire up to 5,000 gigawatt hours of greenhouse gas emissions by connecting communities electricity will move forward, along with the phase 2 now relying on diesel generation. They will be con- bioenergy call for up to 1,000 gigawatt hours of elec- nected to the grid. tricity from wood waste and projects to increase power These new heritage assets — Site C, the Mica and generation and efficiency at B.C. pulp mills. Revelstoke expansions and the northwest transmission These specific clean power procurement processes line — are critical to self-sufficiency, economic develop- that provide the power to achieve self-sufficiency will ment and our government's clean energy vision. not be put at risk or delayed. They will be exempt from To ensure that these critical projects proceed and are costly and time-consuming reviews under the Utilities not subject to unnecessary, lengthy and costly processes Commission Act, yet they will still be subject to the B.C. before the B.C. Utilities Commission, the Clean Energy Utilities Commission oversight with respect to rate- Act exempts these projects from the B.C. Utilities setting requirements and to all existing environmental Commission review. requirements and standards, as well as to the Crown's All will still be subject to environmental assessments constitutional obligations to First Nations. and to ensuring that the Crown's obligations to First Following the 2007 energy plan, B.C. Hydro intro- Nations are met. Let me read that again. All will still be duced the standing offer program to take supplies of subject to environmental assessments and to ensuring private power as and when ready and has so far signed that the Crown's obligations to First Nations are met. six electricity purchase agreements. The Clean Energy 5790 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Act enables repricing to reflect the results of recent calls, point, a very important point. TheU tilities Commission includes the option to increase the maximum project will continue to regulate domestic supply and rates. It size above ten megawatts and allows for technologies to will continue to approve or reject projects or programs be specified. that are not otherwise addressed by this act, and when TheC lean Energy Act will result in major new private it's carrying out those functions, it will be required to and public sector investments in energy infrastruc- consider and be guided by the energy objectives in ture and strengthened conservation efforts to ensure section 2 and any approved integrated resource plans. that we meet the long-term electricity needs of British The government will also strengthen B.C. Hydro to Columbians at low rates. help deliver the province's clean energy objectives. The A key purpose of the Clean Energy Act is to en- Clean Energy Act will consolidate B.C. Hydro and B.C. sure that government, B.C. Hydro and the Utilities Transmission Corporation to strengthen public owner- Commission are all aligned with the same objective: to ship and allow the combined entity to fully capitalize on make British Columbia a leading North American sup- its unique ability to manage generation and transmis- plier of low-carbon energy and technologies and reliable, sion facilities. competitively priced power. The act will integrate the two companies into a single To ensure that alignment, the Clean Energy Act organization with one board of directors and execu- introduces a new regulatory framework for long-term tive and will transfer all B.C. Transmission Corporation electricity planning. The current multitude of planning assets, liabilities and employees to B.C. Hydro. B.C. processes will be replaced with a long-term integrated Hydro will become a single point of planning — an au- resource plan that allows for public input and long-term thority to deliver the government's clean energy vision. stability for the industry. B.C. Hydro will be required to [1635] submit to government a long-term integrated resource The British Columbia Transmission Corporation was plan that considers B.C.'s electricity needs over the next originally created in 2003 in response to emerging regu- 30 years. latory requirements in the U.S. calling for increased The integrated resource plan will set out B.C. Hydro's independence of transmission and the development of demand forecast and supply plans to achieve self-sufficiency, regional transmission organizations. Regional trans- B.C. Hydro's plans to implement government's energy mission organizations did not develop in the Pacific objectives, and results of the public and First Nations Northwest, and the movement towards greater in- consultations. The integrated resource plan must be sub- dependence for transmission was halted. mitted within 18 months of the Clean Energy Act B.C. Hydro will continue to be owned by the province, coming into force and must include a description of and public ownership of B.C. Hydro's assets will remain clean and renewable electricity potential in the province protected by legislation. British Columbians will benefit and the infrastructure needs for the transmission system over the next 30 years. from a unified publicly owned entity that will capital- This incorporates and replaces the B.C. Utilities ize on the proven strength and trusted service of both Commission's long-term transmission inquiry that organizations to lead the development of clean, reliable commenced in 2009. Subsequent plans must be submitted and affordable electricity for generations to come. every five years, and plans may be amended to adapt to The Clean Energy Act will ensure self-sufficiency at changing conditions. low rates, but it will also position British Columbia to be- The act introduces a major change in the review and come a major exporter and harness British Columbia's approval process for B.C. Hydro plans. Cabinet will approve clean power potential to create jobs in every region of or reject the integrated resource plan, rather than the our great province. Utilities Commission. If it chooses, cabinet may use its For decades, B.C. Hydro has traded energy with power to exempt specific projects, programs, contracts Alberta and the United States. Trading clean, renew- or expenditures in an integrated resource plan from fur- able electricity is no different than other products the ther Utilities Commission review. province develops and sells, like our natural gas or our Otherwise, the projects, programs, contracts or ex- lumber. penditures will be subject to the Utilities Commission British Columbia and jurisdictions such as California review, although the Clean Energy Act will require have different seasonal peaks that allow their systems the Utilities Commission to consider and be guided by to complement one another. British Columbia's energy British Columbia's energy objectives and the IRP ap- use peaks in the winter, when temperatures are coldest. proved by government. This process will ensure that California's energy use peaks in the summer, when tem- B.C. Hydro and the Utilities Commission are aligned peratures are the highest. with government's energy policy objectives. Madam Speaker, I note I have a member that would The Utilities Commission will continue to regulate like to make an introduction. I will take a moment's domestic supply and rates, and I want to reiterate that break and allow that member to make the introduction. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5791

J. Brar: I seek leave to make an introduction. will partner with renewable power producers to ag- gregate B.C.'s supplies, market B.C. clean energy, and Deputy Speaker: Proceed. leverage the hydro system's unique firming and shaping capabilities. Introductions by Members B.C. Hydro will minimize risk by ensuring that long- term export agreements are secured before issuing new J. Brar: I know the students are just leaving. I just calls for power — another quote I'm going to go back on, wanted to make sure I introduce them before they leave. Madam Speaker. Just a few minutes ago I introduced a group of [1640] students from Frost Road Elementary School in Surrey- B.C. Hydro will minimize risks by ensuring that long- Fleetwood. This is the second group of students from term export power agreements are secured before issuing the same school. Altogether, there are 75 students from new calls for power. Consistent with government's com- the grade 5 class, and they are led by their teacher Ms. mitment to one project, one process, export contracts Kerry Schwab. There are 40 other volunteers, includ- will be exempt from B.C. Utilities Commission review, ing parents. I would like to ask the members from both yet will remain subject to the provincial environmental, sides to please make them feel welcome. First Nations and community consultation require- ments. The benefits of electricity exports will accrue to D. Hayer: I also want to include my welcome to this all British Columbians, but ratepayers will not bear the school, because I know they are in the Surrey-Fleetwood cost. riding now. Actually, some of the students from my part The Clean Energy Act firmly establishes this princi- of the riding also attend the school. I had a chance to ple. The act clearly separates exports and ensures that meet with them after the MLA for Surrey-Fleetwood ratepayers are not subject to the risk of long-term ex- met with them. port sales and also ensures that benefits from export I also want to congratulate them for coming over here, revenues flow to ratepayers and taxpayers. In fact, the thank the parents and the teachers for bringing the stu- Utilities Commission is required to ensure that any ex- dents here, and I also ask the House to make them very, penditures associated with long-term exports are not very welcome. Some of the students are from my riding, included in domestic rates. and I met with them earlier today. The affordable rates that are one of the benefits of B.C.'s existing and future heritage assets will by law con- Debate Continued tinue to flow exclusively to British Columbians. The Clean Energy Act will create other economic oppor- Hon. B. Lekstrom: I, too, will welcome the people tunities as well. Resource-dependent communities will here into the chambers. I think it's important. especially benefit from the pursuit of new export oppor- Carrying on, traditionally B.C. Hydro has engaged tunities through new clean energy investments and job in short-term trade that has helped keep rates low and creation. contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to help These communities hit hard by the effects of the fund government programs such as health care and mountain pine beetle and the economic downturn can education. leverage their resources to produce low-carbon electri- Looking ahead, with many states and provinces seek- city such as bioenergy. Other rural areas of resources ing to meet renewable electricity requirements and such as wind, run of the river and other clean resources, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, British Columbia which can be developed to create jobs and benefits in is uniquely positioned to offer clean, reliable power at every region of our province…. competitive prices to assist those jurisdictions in meet- Several First Nations have participated in B.C. Hydro's ing their targets. It is estimated that we have the potential calls for clean power. The newF irst Nations clean energy clean energy supply in B.C. to power 11 million homes. business fund will facilitate further First Nations par- Accessing new markets will not be easy. We need will- ticipation in renewable power production. The fund will ing buyers, access to transmission and a supply portfolio initially have up to $5 million invested by the province as that meets customers' needs. And to deliver this, we will well as a share of incremental natural resource revenues need a partnership between government, B.C. Hydro that the province receives from new power projects. and B.C.'s renewable power producers. The Clean Energy Act will attract new low-carbon The Clean Energy Act creates a new role for B.C. investments and create jobs in B.C. by permitting B.C. Hydro to actively market B.C.'s clean power and spear- Hydro to enter into long-term sales contracts for green head long-term competitively priced export contracts technology investments that require stable, predictable to neighbours in Canada and the U.S. that create new electricity prices. opportunities for investments and jobs across British A strengthened B.C. Hydro will also open new regional Columbia. To secure these opportunities, B.C. Hydro economic opportunities by advancing the northwest 5792 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

transmission line, continuing to plan for an extension of to connect to the transmission system to access clean the clean electricity grid to northeast British Columbia, and renewable electricity from B.C.'s heritage assets. and establishing a new distribution extension policy In closing, this government has set out a new vision to help connect rural and remote communities to B.C. to be a leading North American supplier of low-carbon Hydro's clean electricity grid. energy and technologies and clean, reliable and com- The act will also support our growing clean tech sector petitively priced power. The Clean Energy Act puts in by fostering the growth and development of innovative place the framework to meet the long-term electricity businesses and technologies. B.C. Hydro will update needs of British Columbians at low rates and harness terms and conditions for the standing offer program in British Columbia's clean power potential to create jobs consultation with industry and will introduce a feed-in in every region, strengthen environmental stewardship tariff program to promote the development of emerging and reduce greenhouse gases. technologies in renewable power production. TheC lean Energy Act builds on the 2007 energy plan, The feed-in tariff enabled by the Clean Energy Act the 2008 climate action plan and the recommendations will focus on supporting emerging technologies that can of the Green Energy Advisory Task Force that was ap- supply power from B.C.'s diverse renewable resources pointed in November of 2009. This bill puts British and develop expertise here in B.C. Columbia at the forefront of clean energy development Government and B.C. Hydro will work with industry in North America. to define the program, which will be established through In closing, I want to say I'm extremely proud of the regulation. The program will be targeted and focused.I t work that has gone into this bill, of the men and women will not be an Ontario-style feed-in tariff. in the ministry, the men and women of British Columbia In addition to meeting self-sufficiency and harness- who contributed to the input or gave their input. ing our clean resources to create jobs, the third major We have a significant potential before us here in focus of the Clean Energy Act is on strengthening en- British Columbia. Our ability to develop clean, renew- vironmental stewardship and reducing greenhouse gas able electricity is probably unlike any other jurisdiction emissions. The act enshrines in law measures the prov- in the world. We have potential not only to help our- ince will take to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, help selves but to help others. customers save money through conservation and pro- Greenhouse gas emissions don't recognize bound- tect the environment. aries. They don't recognize the B.C.-Alberta boundary. Building on the commitment for net zero emissions They don't recognize the Canada-U.S. boundary. If we from electricity generation, the act increases the legis- have the ability to develop our resources in a sound, en- lated clean or renewable electricity generation from 90 vironmentally sustainable manner, I think we have an percent to at least 93 percent of total generation, one of obligation to do that. the highest standards in the world and something we It will help us meet British Columbia's domestic should all be proud of. needs when it comes to electricity, but it will also help The environmental assessment process will now be us generate jobs across this province. It will help us strengthened to specifically provide for assessments of benefit through the money that is returned to British potential cumulative environmental effects. The Clean Columbians, to continue to invest in infrastructure and Energy Act will prohibit the development or proposal of continue to invest in health care, in transportation, in energy projects in parks, protected areas and conserv- education, in our social programs. I'm proud to de- ancies. The act rejects consideration of nuclear power in liver second reading of the clean energy bill here this implementing B.C.'s clean energy strategy. B.C. Hydro's afternoon. operation of Burrard Thermal is restricted only to emer- gency situations and supporting transmission reliability. J. Horgan: For the Clerk's information, I'll be the [1645] designated speaker on Bill 17 this afternoon. I want to The act enshrines B.C.'s historic two-river policy by thank the minister for his presentation this afternoon. prohibiting, with the exception of Site C, future development It's always a pleasure to hear a crafted speech that was of large-scale hydroelectric storage projects on all river put together by those who want to put forward the illu- systems in British Columbia, including nine sites previously sion of progress, and the words from the minister today considered by B.C. Hydro. certainly achieved that. The act enables public utilities to establish programs There are significant challenges that we have with this to encourage the use of electricity or energy directly bill, significant issues that I will be raising over the next from a clean or renewable resource and to accelerate the hour or so as we discuss the Clean Energy Act. I want to deployment of natural gas and electric vehicles and fuelling start with the end of the minister's speech and then go infrastructure. back to the beginning. New opportunities will be provided for rural and re- The minister spoke passionately about his desire to re- mote residents who are now dependent on diesel power duce greenhouse gas emissions, yet this very minister Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5793

signed an environmental assessment permit to allow a lenges of the current government — are to try and find natural gas plant north of his community, called the Cabin the best of many bad options, and that's not easy to do. gas plant, that will increase our greenhouse gas emissions In fact, it's quite difficult to do. by 3 percent — increase by 3 percent. I give any government in any jurisdiction, regardless You can't have it both ways. I hear that all the time from of its political stripe, the benefit of the doubt on these the other side. "You can't have it both ways, Member of matters. I would like very much to give this government the opposition." So a little bit of quid pro quo, as it were. the benefit of the doubt, but I look back at their historic I don't dispute for a minute the minister's passion on position on things like the Utilities Commission, for ex- this question, but to have signed off on a 3 percent in- ample. I'll be reading some quotes into the record on the crease one day and then to come into this House and say view of the then Leader of the Opposition, now Premier, our clean, green energy, which has been clean and green on the importance of the regulator in the day. long before the arrival of the B.C. Liberals…. It didn't Someone has asked me again. It must be introduction just happen in 2001. It happened, as the minister said at day, so I'll take my seat if someone will stand up. the beginning, some 50 years ago. I'd like to go back to that point. T. Lake: I seek leave to make an introduction. I welcome the member for Kamloops — wherever it is, South Thompson or North Thompson. I'm sure he'll Leave granted. be chirping for the next hour, and that will certainly em- bolden me in my comments as we proceed this afternoon. Introductions by Members [1650] I also want to speak to the minister's comments about T. Lake: Thank you to the member for Juan de Fuca. the genesis of the two-river policy and how W.A.C. I wanted to get the introduction in before you worked Bennett in the 1950s and '60s saw quite clearly, it appears yourself up to full fury. Thanks for giving me that today with the benefit of hindsight, the net benefits to opportunity. the people of B.C. of the development of hydroelectric Today in the gallery we have a whole school from my facilities on the Peace River and the Columbia. And riding of Kamloops–North Thompson. We have the good for the minister. I don't want to date the minister, Brennan Creek Elementary School here. Brennan Creek but I think she would have been in short pants at that is a remote one-room school located at Brennan Creek, time. I for one was not born. which is on the shore of Adams Lake about 20 kilometres If the government wants to take credit for a policy of north of Skwaam Bay on a road that is mainly used by a previous Premier, that's grand. I encourage that. The logging trucks. issue, however, before us is policy going forward from The school has five students now between grades 1 today. That's why we're here. and 7, and they're here today with their teacher Diana I have a master's degree in history. I like old stuff. I Fraser and their parents. It's a very, very hard-working read autobiographies. I've read about Bennett. I've read and interested parent group. They support this school about many other leaders in Canada. That's all to the good, tremendously well. The school has a four-day workweek and I encourage those in the gallery…. I encourage min- and a longer day so that it allows the parents and the isters to crack something other than their briefing books students to access services in the more urban areas on now and again to get a broader perspective on the world the other day. around us. The school board has also supported the school very But that doesn't change the fact that the member well with major repairs and enhancements. New siding from Point Grey did not create green energy in British was recently installed. Major repairs have been made to Columbia — not even close. He wants to take credit the teacher's residence, and a new high-speed satellite for it day in and day out. The government on the other Internet connection was also established. side wants to take credit for it, and if that feeds their I'm really pleased. I had an opportunity to meet with delusions, that's just fine by me. But I think practical, the students and parents beforehand and show them a thoughtful people — those who are paying the bills few of the non-official parts of the tour of the building. for B.C. Hydro, those who are paying the bills for the I would have the House please help me welcome these bloated executive council of the B.C. Liberal cabinet…. students, parents and Miss Diana Fraser from Brennan Those people would prefer to hear some practical solu- Creek Elementary School. tions to the enormous challenges we face. I don't dispute for a minute the minister's framing of Debate Continued the challenges that we have as a community, as a prov- ince and as a society and, in fact, as a civilization as we J. Horgan: I thank the member for Kamloops–North grapple with very significant issues. Our challenges as Thompson for keeping that down to five minutes. I, legislators — the challenges at B.C. Hydro, the chal- too, want to welcome…. The member is from far away. 5794 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

I live just in the region, so I get kids here all the time. The role and function of legislators is to ensure that Certainly, we all tip our caps to the kids and the teacher the government of the day does not make decisions in from Brennan Creek Elementary. the interest of themselves but rather in the interest of I thank the minister for allowing me to warm up to history, in the interest of our future, which is sitting in my full dudgeon. I'll certainly get there as quickly as the gallery today. As an opposition member, I take this possible. job very seriously. All of my colleagues do. [1655] We do periodically get some respect from the govern- I was talking before the introduction about the history ment for the difficult task of being negative every day, of hydroelectric development in British Columbia. The but it's important and it's valid. The Queen, as I've said minister's recitation was accurate as far as it went, but repeatedly, pays us to do this, and I thank her every two there were challenges at those times. There were people weeks for that stipend. I do it with enthusiasm and vig- that stood in the way of those developments, for good our, and I will continue to do that throughout the rest of reasons. There are valleys that have been despoiled in the the afternoon. Kootenays. There are valleys that have been despoiled — I want to go back to the benign nature of viewing history the Kwadacha. The Tsay Keh Dene First Nation just now, and creating reservoirs as if there was no impact. During 40 years later, received some compensation for the impacts the 1990s I had the pleasure of working with a thing called of the Williston reservoir. The minister is aware of that. the Columbia River treaty commission, which was a These historic issues that we talk about in terms of group of elected representatives from the Columbia Basin their benign impact at the time and their great bene- stretching from Valemount — not "mont" but "mount" — fit to us today are just not the way it happened. I know down to…. My colleague, my friend from Prince George, the minister and members on that side know that, but I is happy that I said it correctly. It took me a while to get it, think it's important — when we talk about challenges, Member, but I will never forget it, and Jeannette Townsend we talk about industrialization and we talk about flood- can be credited for emblazoning that in my mind. ing valleys — that we talk about the downsides as well. The discussion took place from the very top reaches In order to make good public policy, we have to look at of the Columbia Basin in Valemount down to Trail at all issues. the border and stayed just on one side of the Boundary One of the advantages we've had here in British country and took us to the member for Kootenay East's Columbia since the 1980s is an independent utilities com- constituency at the Alberta border. mission. I will certainly get to the importance of that body The objective of those local representatives was to and its future under this Bill 17 as the afternoon progresses. bring to government — a government that was 30 years But I think it's also very important for the minister…. I distant from the decisions that led to the flooding of val- know he'll take very great care in reviewing my comments leys…. Thirty years later they wanted to bring to Victoria, and will reflect in his own community on the impact that bring to the government, elected representatives that Site C will have absent now regulation — now only under may not have had any knowledge whatsoever…. the auspices of the Environmental Assessment Act. I did not have a significant understanding of the Perhaps there will be a full federal panel. That's cer- impacts of the Columbia River treaty on the people tainly what the people in his community want. That's in the Kootenays — very, very little interest in that. what his constituents are asking for. If the project is As a Vancouver Islander educated away from British legitimate, if the project is in the best interests of British Columbia, the Kootenays was a distant place. Electricity Columbia, then I'm sure it will surpass any of the ob- was there. I flicked the switch, my television went on, stacles that regulation would put in its place. the lights went on, and all was good. But there was a As an opposition member — and I speak to the kids profound impact on the people in that region — a pro- today from the Interior, north of Kamloops — the job found impact. of the opposition, what I'm doing right now, is trying [1700] to make it clear to the government that they are just a Thousands of people were displaced from their homes, passing fancy. They will go away someday. They will be homesteads flooded, forest lands alienated by reservoirs replaced by someone else. Our side wants that to happen with torpedoes coming out of the ground. The minister more quickly than that side. knows. Going to Williston Lake, it was supposed to be Governments are ephemeral. They come and they a recreational haven for people to come and play water go. They are not permanent. The government of British sports and so on — fearful all the while that a massive Columbia is a permanent institution, and one of its pine would come jettisoning up from the bottom of the Crown corporations, B.C. Hydro, has served us all very reservoir and go through the bottom of their boat. It's dif- well. But the people in this place, the people in cabinet, ficult to have fun and leisure and go fishing in a reservoir will be replaced, with absolute certainty — if not next when you're not sure whether or not you're going to get a time, the time after that; if not the time after that, the torpedo coming from the bottom in the form of a Douglas time after that. fir or a pine tree. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5795

The expectation for those from away was that it was the screen, and that's how I learned about it. Of course, benign. We created reservoirs, which are lakes, aren't I didn't realize — I was living in Canada at the time they? Well, no, they're not. Reservoirs are bathtubs. They — that it was about Congress, but what we do here in go up, and they go down. British Columbia is that a government will introduce a I had the mayor at that time…. His name escapes me bill. It's called first reading. It's printed. All of us on this now. My colleague from Columbia River–Revelstoke will side, all of us on that side, people in the broader com- certainly know him because he replaced him a couple of munity have an opportunity to review the contents of elections later. that bill. At second reading we have a general discussion about Interjection. the principles of the bill — what's intended by the gov- ernment, and we've just heard all goodness, nothing J. Horgan: Fred Demmon was the mayor of Golden. wrong. Everyone will be happy; no harm done to any- While we were discussing the impacts of the Columbia one anywhere. That's the vision of the government. The River treaty, he told me that there were cottages that in opposition regrettably has to bring a black cloud to that low-water years were seven kilometres away from the and dump a little bit of reality on the position that the water. minister has just outlined for us. Now, there's a recreational property you're going to There are 30-odd pages in the bill. There are multiple want to purchase, isn't it? Let's line up to buy some prop- sections. We'll get to the clause-by-clause section, per- erty on the reservoir just outside of Golden, because if haps, unless the government recognizes perhaps a better the snowpack is high and the reservoir is high, you can course of action. We'll be laying that out over the next walk to the end of your dock and jump into the lake. But number of days. if it's a low-water year or if the treaty somehow requires Our concern with the bill really goes back to 2003. us to flow more water through as an international obliga- The government came to power in 2001, made a host of tion, all of a sudden you're walking through mud to get promises about how they were going to use the Utilities to your boat, which is potentially seven kilometres away. Commission in a different way. They were going to take That strikes me as a government saying to the people the politics out of it. That's what they were going to do. in that region: "This is all going to be good. There are Oppositions always talk about that. When govern- no downsides whatsoever to signing the Columbia River ments get old and bloated, they need to be pushed a treaty. There are no downsides whatsoever to the two- little bit, and oppositions are always there to make the river policy." Not true — a reality quite different from case that what the government is doing is wrong and if what we just heard from the minister. only the people elected the opposition, all good things The minister is aware of all of this stuff. His job today would flow. is to say: "We've got the next coming of the two-river That's the back and forth. That's what we do here, policy right here, the Clean Energy Act. It is going to and my colleague for Kamloops–North Thompson will revolutionize the way we do business. It's going to allow be able to come to Brennan Creek Elementary and ex- jobs in every corner of the province. There's going to plain that in more detail. I'm certain he will, and he'll be milk and honey, gold on the streets. Nothing wrong do it with enthusiasm and aplomb. You can look that up here; everybody rejoice. All in favour — hands up." when you get back to school. No worries. That's the role and function of the minister of the [1705] Crown. I give the minister credit — although I'll be I want to just read a couple of quotes prior to 2003 chastised by my colleague from Whalley for doing so that came from an unlikely source. My colleague from — for at least putting on a brave face and saying all the Whalley is very interested in this because I told him I positive things that were in his well-crafted speech. But would be doing a little bit of history for the members in the reality is the responsibility of opposition, and the re- this place. ality, hon. Minister, is going to be coming upon you for The parts that I'm going to read come from a speech the next seven or eight days as we continue to debate the to the Canadian Institute of Energy in November 2000. merits of this bill at second reading. The then Leader of the Opposition said the following: Again, I'm delighted my colleague from Kamloops– "What we support is an open, honest, public review of North Thompson has given me an audience because I all these projects" — he was referring to energy pro- think some of the people in the audience are actually in- jects when he said that — "and when they're successful, terested in what I have to say. I want to give you a sense we will know they're right for the province of British of what happens at second reading of a piece of legisla- Columbia, that what we support is a government that tion. The minister will be interested as well. How does a actually starts to tell the truth to consumers." That was bill become law? the end of his quote. There used to be a program on public television in Now, as the kids from Brennan Creek heard, I just said the United States with a little bill that danced around on to the minister that that's what we would do if we were 5796 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

in government. That's the role, perhaps, of opposition: They get that — $10 billion. For some of them that are to speak the truth. "This is what the public would want. on the cusp of Columbia River–Revelstoke, they would Let's take away the politics from the regulator." That's know about the Revelstoke dam. Maybe they've gone what the Leader of the Opposition — the now Premier, there. That would be a good field trip for the kids to go the member for Vancouver–Point Grey, my good friend up and take a look at Revelstoke. They're in the neigh- — said in 2000. bourhood. It's not that far away. He said a couple of other things, and I want to read The Mica project unit 6 that the minister referred to those into the record as well. Again to the very same — about $300 million. It would probably have been ap- Energy Institute conference he said: "It's critical that we proved by the regulator had it gone through the process, restore the independence of the Utilities Commission to had it not been exempted. There are some that argue properly do its job on behalf of utilities and consumers that perhaps by not allowing it to go to regulation to alike without political interference. We intend to do that." get a certificate of public convenience and necessity, a Thunderous applause, no doubt, from the Liberals in CPCN, as it's called in the business…. the room — thunderous applause from those assembled Perhaps by exempting Revelstoke and Mica, which to heap praise upon the Leader of the Opposition who is another good project but a billion-dollar project, a now is in tatters as the leader of a government facing the $1.3 billion project…. By exempting those two heritage largest corruption trial in B.C. history and an initiative assets, it prevents First Nations from making a claim at campaign that's been signed by some 550,000 British a public hearing in front of an independent body where Columbians. there's cross-examination, where they have an oppor- Ten years ago that very member was going to re- tunity to put forward their case. move politics from the Utilities Commission. I will get [1710] to the importance of making a reference to the Utilities If Mica and Revelstoke…. This is a theory, and -per Commission in a moment. In 2001, shortly after the haps when we hear from members on the government speech, in front of all of the Liberals, that was met with side, they'll disabuse me of that theory. People have said thunderous applause, no doubt, the B.C. Liberal plat- to me: "Well gee, those are two good projects — positive form said this was the "New era of hope" campaign. public projects — that will provide electricity now and I know that 2001 was a long time ago for many of us, into the future." But by removing them from regulation, but this is what it said:"You shouldn't have to pay higher First Nations will no longer have an opportunity to make than necessary electricity or auto insurance rates because their case for any potential claims as a result." government wants to play politics with B.C. Hydro. You A couple of other projects, hon. Speaker, but before I should be confident that government will protect your get to that, why not another quote? Are you okay with interests. A B.C. Liberal government will restore an in- that? I knew you'd be fine with that. Before the elec- dependent B.C. Utilities Commission to re-regulate B.C. tion in 2001, the Premier of today, the opposition leader Hydro's electricity rates." of yesteryear, the champion, the crusader, the one that Very impressive words from the then Leader of the was going to restore independence…. He was going to Opposition. Quite a juxtaposition, quite a contrast, quite depoliticize politics. He was going to do everything dif- a difference — to my elementary kids — from what we ferently. He was rewarded with 77 members, and that just heard from the minister who said that this bill will turned out to be a curse. We're seeing that in a court- exempt from Utilities Commission approval and over- room in Vancouver now, as we look at the B.C. Rail sight seven or eight projects. Liberal corruption trial. I've totalled up the costs of those projects conservatively. But back in 2001 just before the election, in an opin- It comes in at about $10 billion — I'll be going through ion piece, an op-ed article that he wrote in the Vancouver them in some detail in a moment — worth of projects Sun, the now Premier, then Leader of the Opposition, that are exempt in this bill from Utilities Commission who was a crusader for conscience and independence oversight. That's a lot of peanuts — isn't it? — $10 billion. and oversight, said: "We will strengthen the B.C. Utilities How can you go in ten short years, Member from Commission and put B.C. Hydro back under BCUC Whalley, from making passionate appeals to the pub- control. This will protect consumers." lic: "Get behind me. I will restore independence to the I know my friend from Whalley — he's learned in Utilities Commission. I have a vision that depoliticizes numbers — would probably support me when I say that electricity. Follow me to the promised land"? How do you the objective of the Premier at that time when he was get from that to: "Ah, we want a Utilities Commission, Leader of the Opposition, aside from currying favour except for $10 billion worth of projects"? Ten billion with voters, which is self-evident, I suppose…. We are dollars — absolutely staggering. Humorous to some, but creatures of votes. We have what we call the running of staggering to most. the reptiles every four years, and here we are. The 85 of The kids in the gallery are thinking: "What is he talk- us arrive here, and we debate back and forth the benefits ing about now?" Ten billion is a big number, though. and merits of pieces of legislation. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5797

Back in 2001 on the eve of an election, the Premier, facilities — like Revelstoke, like Mica, like the Peace not satisfied with his rousing support from the energy Canyon and the other projects that B.C. Hydro operates institute back in November, went a step further and — to get them off diesel so that they are reducing their put in writing in the Vancouver Sun, the journal of re- greenhouse gas impact. All to the good. Most people cord. I say that to the editors of the journal of record, would support that. But we have to keep in mind…. the Vancouver Sun, although they rarely print anything When I talked to my colleague from Stikine about this, I send them. I do say to them that they decided this was there are very few people living along Highway 37. We important. This was significant public policy; let's pub- talked about maybe 2,500 people max — 2,500 people. lish it in the journal of record. We're going to spend $400 million to provide them The people of British Columbia can access it whether with electricity that they are now getting from, admit- they be in Brennan Creek, whether they be in Columbia tedly, diesel generators. That's a lot of money. You could River–Revelstoke, whether they be in Peace River South. probably find other ways to provide electricity to those They can get access to theVancouver Sun and see in print communities. So there must be another reason why you for all British Columbians to understand that the then would want to expend $400 million. Leader of the Opposition, the current Premier, was stead- One of the reasons, of course, is to encourage mining fastly opposed to politicizing the Utilities Commission. developments in the region, and there are many pro- Why would you want cabinet to make those deci- posals — the Red Chris proposal near Iskut, the Galore sions? Why would you allow elected representatives Creek proposal, Shaft Creek. There are a half a dozen from disparate walks of life…? I look at the denizens copper, gold and other metal mines that are on the verge of the cabinet today. They all come with different back- of going forward provided they get access to clean — not grounds and understandings. I don't think there's a man necessarily clean, but electricity. jack of them over there that understands electricity or The government, trying to disguise a subsidy to the electricity policy — nor should they. mining industry as good electricity policy, has ensured I know that the Minister of Energy comes from a nat- that the regulator, the B.C. Utilities Commission, never ural gas background. He's probably got a steep learning gets their hands on this piece of work. curve on electricity, but he's working hard at it. But to my I don't know if it's a good project or not. I'm not pre- knowledge, after reviewing the resumes of the current oc- pared to speculate on that. I do know that the mining cupants of cabinet chairs, I don't know of one person over sector is very, very bullish on it. They're very anxious to there that has a background in electricity — not one. ensure that they have sufficient electricity. Very electri- Rather than have the independent Utilities city intensive industry — the mining sector. Members Commission review B.C. Hydro's integrated resource on the other side will know that. That's the motivation. plans and rather than have experts independent of gov- That's what the government wants. They want to ensure ernment, independent of politics, championed by the that they can proceed with a $400 million expenditure. Leader of the Opposition and rather than have those Who is going to pay for that? The man on the moon? individuals in a situation where there can be cross- The kids from Brennan Creek Elementary will be pay- examination and evidence can be tested back and forth ing for it. Their parents will be paying for it. Electricity — rather than do that — this bill has decided that the users, ratepayers, B.C. Hydro customers will be paying best course of action is to allow the 25 people that the for that. Now, before the tabling of this bill, before we Premier has appointed to cabinet make decisions on could proceed with a project of this magnitude, there electricity policy. would have to be a hearing, and a certificate of pub- I don't know. It was a bad idea in 2000-2001. lic convenience and necessity would be issued by the Miraculously, nine years later, with an initiative cam- Utilities Commission so that this project could proceed. paign at the 550,000 mark and a corruption trial going Now we're not going to do that. That's 400 million on, it's now a good idea for the cabinet to review these bucks that ratepayers will have to find to pay for an elec- issues. It seems inconceivable to me. tricity line, a transmission line for 2,000 people, tops, says I'm going to wait a moment before I get to that. I'm my colleague from Stikine, and two or three mining pro- just going to inventory, instead, some of the projects that jects. Now, I don't begrudge the development of those are listed in Bill 17 as exempt from Utilities Commission mines. I would probably on most days think that that was oversight. It shan't take me a moment, hon. Speaker. a good thing, but 400 million bucks is a lot of money. The northwest transmission line: $404 million, es- Rather than all of the members on that side of the timated cost. Now, there are colleagues in my caucus House that are in cabinet, that have no understanding of who support this initiative. There are colleagues that are the impact of this on the broader system at B.C. Hydro dubious about it. and the broader system that's going to affect ratepayers, [1715] I would prefer that that be done by an independent com- The intent, as the minister outlined, is to electrify mission. And that's what the Premier said ten years ago. Highway 37, to provide clean energy from our existing That was his objective.H e said it not once, not twice, but 5798 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

three times. Put it in the platform for all to see. That was Now, that's not to say that cabinet ministers won't then; this is now. do that when a billion-dollar item comes to cabinet There's another project that's not on the list, that's or Treasury Board. I know that members on Treasury been exempted, that will not receive oversight, and that's Board and cabinet are earnest. I'm going to be criticized a project called the smart meter, smart grid program. by my colleague from Whalley for giving credit where Now, the minister, in his remarks today, commented on credit might or might not be due, but they spend a lot of this as a positive initiative with respect to conservation. time on this stuff in cabinet. Many people have made that case to me. But will they spend a lot of time on smart meters when I've had other people make a different argument. They've they know…? "Well, the Premier wants it. I'm only here be- said to me that these devices are susceptible to hacking, se- cause the Premier picked me. What if I'd put up my hand curity challenges — people hacking into your house and and say, 'Hey, wait a minute. That's $1 billion, Member using your grid to reduce their costs. There are challenges from Point Grey. Is that the best thing we can do with $1 in California. There are challenges in New York. billion? Wouldn't it be better to try and retrofit some of My colleague from Surrey-Whalley, well read — al- our aging housing stock rather than put a gadget on the ways sending me literature that he finds in his searches of wall that will tell you, guess what, that your lights are on.'" various papers and journals — has sent me an abundance That's what a smart meter does. It tells you what your of information about the downside of smart meters. It's a consumption is at certain times during the day. The min- billion dollars — a billion dollars to implement this pro- ister is selling this as a positive initiative for consumers ject. And the minister, I'm sad, is going to have to review because they'll be able to say: "Oh, look at that. I'm using a this in Hansard. lot of electricity now while I cook my dinner at six o'clock." The minister, six months ago — not in 2000, not in Well, lo and behold, the busiest time of day for B.C. Hydro, 2001 — said the following to me in this place with re- peak demand, is at about six o'clock every night. spect to smart meters: "…there will be a full public The member for Columbia River–Revelstoke knows document…. That won't be available until the public fil- this. Most people — not us; we'll be here till seven ing with the B.C. Utilities Commission. That's when all o'clock, but most people — go home at six o'clock and of the work will culminate in the business plan in what eat their dinner. That involves turning on the stove. That we would…put forward. Ultimately, as we've talked involves some lights in the wintertime so that you see about, the BCUC will review that and make a determin- what you're doing. Maybe they'll have some music on, ation: is it in the public interest or not?" or they're watching reruns of MASH on the television. [1720] Who knows what they're going to be doing at that time? Now, that was six months ago, six months ago from the very minister who just stood in this place at second Hon. P. Bell: Hansard TV? reading on Bill 17 that says: "We're not going to do that anymore. Changed my mind." A billion dollars. J. Horgan: Hansard TV. Some will be watching that, It may be a good idea. I was actually looking forward or they might be watching new, fresh, clean advertise- to seeing the business plan. I've been the Energy critic ments from B.C. Hydro about how fantastic everything for four years. I said to the first minister — the now- is going to be. That's right. ascended senator, the beloved — four Instead — and that's the lunacy and my friends in the years ago: "Where's the business plan? How are you go- gallery might see the humour in this — earlier today, ing to implement this? How is B.C. Hydro going to save we've got a billion-dollar initiative here in smart meters, ratepayers an unnecessary additional burden?" He said: and we're not going to have any oversight of that. "We're "Well, you'll just have to wait and see the business plan. just going to let cabinet decide whether or not that's a It's coming. It's coming." good idea. But in case the public actually thinks they're The next year I asked again, in 2008. In 2009 I asked getting shafted, we're going to put ads on in the mid- the new minister, and he said: "Oh, you'll see a business dle of the hockey game so that everyone can see how plan all right. We're going to table it at the B.C. Utilities wonderful we are. No impact from anything we're doing. Commission. We'll have a full airing of the details. There Forget about those flooded valleys. Forget about com- will be cross-examination." munities that are now gone." Organizations like the Public Interest Advocacy The member for Columbia River–Revelstoke can ar- Centre and the B.C. Sustainable Energy Association ticulate what communities in the Kootenays no longer send regular participants to the Utilities Commission. exist — families, homesteads gone, kaput, under water. They send their lawyers to cross-examine B.C. Hydro of- But it was all benign. No harm done. Everything's fine. ficials so that we can burrow down deeply — experts, You can see that tonight on the hockey game or when- people steeped in this information. They can ask the ever the next hockey game is. It's tomorrow night? appropriate questions and get the appropriate answers under oath. Interjection. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5799

J. Horgan: Saturday night. My goodness. Go Hawks. J. Horgan: "What is that?" says my colleague from Saturday night, we're going to be able to turn on the TV, Burnaby–Deer Lake. What are time-of-use tariffs?H ydro and B.C. Hydro is going to tell us that everything is fine. will create a new category for billing. Six o'clock. You're It's all good. It's only $1 billion, and it's in our interest to using your power. It's going to cost you a ton. know that our lights are on. That's what we'll be able to Many people are now familiar with what's called the see. Because our lights will be on, we'll look at the smart inclining block rate, or the two-tiered system. If you meter and it'll say: "You know what? Consumption on look at your hydro bill, it will say that if you use what- your street is very high right now." ever it is — I think it's 1,000 or 1,100 kilowatts — the You can look out the window and see lights on in other rate is a certain level. Anything above that, and the tar- homes and come to that conclusion for less than $1 bil- iff goes up. That is designed to encourage conservation. lion, but apparently, this is a good conservation tool. But It's good public policy. It's a pain in the wallet if you're why is it a good conservation tool? That part of the story a consumer. is rarely told, and that comes back to rates. That comes What will add insult to injury is…. The Premier says: back to rates. "Look, I've seen these gadgets. I was down seeing the gov- If the utility can get into your house…. Right now, ernor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger. I didn't ask you've got the little meter that spins at the side of your him for the $300 million he owes us for electricity that we home, and someone from B.C. Hydro comes once or sold them in 2000." That kind of speaks to the uncertainty twice every couple of months, and they read that meter. of having an export policy with a partner that still owes It might as well be Latin or hieroglyphics to most people. you 300 million bucks, but that's perhaps for another day. There's a whole bunch of numbers, and sometimes it's While he was down in California, Arnie said: "Look going really fast, and sometimes it's not going very fast at this, Premier. You stick it on your wall, and you know at all, depending how much electricity you're using. But how much electricity you're using. Isn't it fantastic?" No, we leave it to the good people of B.C. Hydro to tell us that's another guy that said that. I can't do the Austrian how much we're using. accent, but people get the message. The Premier was [1725] captured by this technology. He came back and said: Well, now with a smart meter — it'd be like an iPad on "Make it so." the wall in your kitchen — they'll be able to tell you that Hydro's been grappling with it for the past couple of this is the highest cost of all the electricity you're using years. Well, now it's in a bill. It's mandated by legisla- in a day. Six o'clock — that's when peak demand is at its tion, and there will be no oversight. The Premier said highest. That's when the market for electricity…. It's a it's a good idea. It is exempt from Utilities Commission commodity. It's traded every day. That is when it's at its oversight. most expensive. Ten years ago he said he wouldn't do that. Six months The spin from the minister and from Hydro and the ago the Minister of Energy said he wouldn't do that. good conservation policy is that if you can, do your Well, they're doing it today, and it's shameful. laundry at two in the morning, or use your electricity at I don't know if smart meters are good or bad. I've laid times that are not peak, at times when the value of that out my perspective for the smattering of people in the commodity is at its lowest. It makes good sense. Do you gallery, for the six or seven people watching at home need to spend a billion dollars to get that into people's and for those in the House today. There are potential heads? I don't know. upsides — no question — to smart meters, but ultim- Rather than have an iPad on their wall telling them ately, it comes down to whether or not that is a useful that their lights are on, I think they'd probably rather expenditure. A billion dollars — that's what the minister have a retrofit. Give consumers the money to spend on told me a week ago is their guess. It's their best guess at upgrading their infrastructure so that they're using less what it's going to cost to implement this program. electricity, so that the housing stock is improved. If we had an independent regulator that we could When the smart meter gets slapped on that 1950s count on, as the former Leader of the Opposition, the house with no insulation and with windows that are sin- current Premier, seemed to do ten years ago…. You gle-pane, it does not conserve energy. It just costs that know, this is the irony. In that ten years he's appointed consumer more. the commissioners at the Utilities Commission. So it's How does that happen, hon. Speaker? Funny you not like he doesn't know these people. It's not like he should ask that. I know you were thinking it, or my col- doesn't have confidence in them. He appointed them. league here was thinking it, in any event. The reason These are order-in-council appointments, and they do it's going to cost you more is that once we've got smart good work. They have historically done good work. meters in all of our houses, B.C. Hydro is going to intro- Governments that are out of control, governments that duce what they call a time-of-use tariff. want to drive their agenda, governments that don't want people in the way do away with regulatory processes. I Interjection. know this to be true. 5800 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

I'll leave it at that. My colleague from Prince George We've had 18 percent rate increases over the past on the other side of my other colleague from Prince three years — all of this at a time when the government George…. has been promoting private power production, a par- allel generation system. They've sold this. The minister Hon. P. Bell: Were you part of that, John? said so today, and we may well hear from other mem- bers on the government side: "This is clean and green, J. Horgan: I have no comment at this time. I'd like to and it's all good." say it's before the courts, but it's not. It's your stuff that's Well, if it's good, then why do people in communities before the courts. oppose it? We had an election in 2009. Independent power A billion dollars. production, private power, was a significant issue in at I've gone through a couple of these. We talked about least three constituencies that I'm aware of where contro- the northwest transmission line, Mica 5 and 6, Revelstoke versial independent power projects had been promoted 6. We've talked about the Clean Power Call. I'd like to do — four, actually, if I count my friend from Nelson-Creston. that for a moment, if I could. Columbia River–Revelstoke, North Island, Powell River– [1730] Sunshine Coast — those are four constituencies where There has been a raging debate here in British private power companies have focused their energies on Columbia about private power production. Many of us trying to get B.C. Hydro and the B.C. Liberal Party to al- are opposed to dismantling the jewel that's B.C. Hydro. low them access to the treasury, allow them to get their It's the irony of listening to the minister talk about the hand on the golden goose which is the shaping and firm- glorious history of our public utility, and it has been, by ing abilities that we have with our reservoirs. and large, a glorious history. It has served us very well. Independent power producers, mostly run-of-river, Industries have developed. Ratepayers have been more or are seasonal. They come in the springtime. Spring freshet less the most benefited of these, resulting from our pub- is what it's called. It's what some have called junk power. lic utility. Rates are low, whether they be industrial rates, It's not particularly valuable, because at the time of year rates for residential consumers or commercial rates. when we have most energy coming from independent They're among the lowest, year after year — the second- power producers, our reservoirs are almost overflowing. or third-lowest in North America. That's a good thing. Other jurisdictions — Bonneville Power Administration When the Premier came to power ten years ago with just to the south of us — are awash in electricity. So the his glorious charge to restore independence to the value of that power is very, very low. Utilities Commission, you would have thought: "Well, The debate that raged in May of 2009 led to the return you know, you've got this utility. It's got reservoirs, which of four New Democrats in those four constituencies makes it unique to some of our trading partners. We're with increased pluralities, more votes than they got be- able to store electricity in the form of water like a big fore. I know my friend from Shuswap is a fan of logic, so battery, so we can hold water, buy on the market when let me try and draw this out for him. it's advantageous to do so, buy power when it's least ex- pensive and sell power when it's at its most expensive. Interjections. That's good business." You'd think that a free enterprise government would J. Horgan: Oh my goodness. Our friend from Prince get that, but it's the doctrinaire socialists, so-called, on George is off of it again. this side of the House that continue to make the case The logic I'm trying to explain is that in the commun- that you should let your Crown corporation — a dom- ities where these projects are proposed, candidates from inant player in the marketplace — play the market when one political party said: "We don't want to proceed that it's advantageous to do so. way." Candidates from another political party said: "We It returns a dividend to the people of B.C. annually, do want to proceed this way." Four candidates that said, normally about $400 million. This year the government "We love private power" lost. Four candidates that said, has bumped that up to $600 million — this year and "We should think about this; this is the wrong way to go" next year and the year after that. The result is a 29 per- — their vote went up. cent rate increase. That tells me, being a democrat, that the public policy For people who are watching at home, if you're won- initiative being proposed by the losers might not have dering why your rates are going up, part of it is because been in the best interests of those communities. Had it the treasury needed to be filled up, and the Minister of been so, as my friend from Prince George alleges, per- Finance wasn't satisfied with the HST. He felt that there haps the outcome would have been different. needed to be more, so the dividend at B.C. Hydro has [1735] been increased by a third from $400 million annually to But my logic tells me that if you win on a position that says, $600 million. This year, next year and the year after that "Proceed with caution…." Why don't we have regional a 29 percent rate increase is projected. planning, provincial planning? — all absent from this Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5801

legislation. If you had a regional plan for energy de- With Hydro now being forced to aggregate private velopment, as they do in the Kootenays, if you had a power, instead of putting the interests of ratepayers first, regional plan on the Sunshine Coast and on the north we're putting the interests of shareholders first by statute coast, perhaps you'd have buy-in. — by statute. The government of the day, the member Instead, you have promoters of private power that for Vancouver–Point Grey, is saying to ratepayers: "You come to communities and say: "I've got a water licence. know, Powerex, on behalf of B.C. Hydro, has done a I've got the support of the government. I give significant pretty good job of playing that market, buying low and donations annually to the governing party. They've told selling high. We're going to tell them now that they must me that although they thought that independent regula- buy high and try and find a market for that." That's the tion was a good idea ten years ago, they assure me that plan. That's the new math from the other side. now it's not so important." The result is going to be that that power, as I said — That's the state of play. That's where we are today. It's the spring freshet power — will have to be firmed and unfortunate, but the government seems hell-bent for shaped and made useful in the marketplace. The member leather to proceed. One of the issues that is exempt now was agitated by this, but the reference has been made that under Bill 17 is the so-called clean power call. That's this is junk power. I didn't make that up. Someone else about a $400 million ticket that will no longer be sub- made it up. They told me, and I'm just repeating it. I'm ject to Utilities Commission oversight. If you're scoring just repeating it because I believe it to be true. I believe it at home, I've totalled up $10 billion worth of projects to be true. If you can…. just from the exempt list. There are many others on the list that I haven't touched upon. There are future -de Interjections. velopments within the independent power sector that are now exempt. Anything that is destined for export by J. Horgan: I'm not backing away. It's junk power. There statute is now exempt. you go. It's junk power — simple as that. The minister talked about a new plan, about not pro- ceeding with projects until we have contracts in hand. Interjections. That troubles me as well.I want to touch a little bit on the notion of our historic export policy, which has served us J. Horgan: Look, I'm sure I'm not going to get a fairly well, as I said, save and except the $300 million Christmas card from Plutonic this year. That's a pity. No that Arnold still owes us. I'm hopeful that the Premier, campaign donations for me from the private power sector, at his next visit, will bring a bill and see about getting and that's a shame. some of that money returned to B.C. Our export policy has a history of success. What the [L. Reid in the chair.] government is proposing now…. Instead of allowing B.C. Hydro to seek opportunities when they can — when That's a pity. No board appointments for me. I'm just reservoirs are high, in high water years — to look for op- stuck representing the people of my community. portunities to sell public power south of the border, into [1740] Alberta — displacing, in many instances, greenhouse I'll just have to be satisfied with being able to go out in gas emissions…. This is all to the good. my community with a petition rather than running away Rather than focusing on the positive aspects of our from a petition. But if that's the way it is…. So 10,000 in existing policy, the government has instead said that Shuswap — my goodness. B.C. Hydro will become an aggregator of projects. So micro-hydro, wind projects, various other private power Interjection. initiatives will now be assembled by B.C. Hydro, by statute, and then marketed south of the border. J. Horgan: More votes than the minister got. Yeah, Who's going to do that marketing? B.C. Hydro. The that's true. public utility is going to be assembling private power So we've had a history of success with our export for shareholders — not for citizens, not for ratepayers policy, but now we've decided that rather than leav- but for shareholders. We're going to take our public ex- ing that to the traders at Powerex, rather than leaving pertise and put it at the disposal of the private power that to the board members of B.C. Hydro or the sen- industry. We're not just taking that marketing expertise. ior managers, we're going to let cabinet figure that out. We're not taking 20 years of experience and success that We're going to let the electricity experts at the executive Powerex can demonstrate in the marketplace — whether council table make determinations about what's good it be California, Utah, Montana, Alberta, you name it. policy and what projects we should aggregate to export Powerex has contracts all over western North America to California. and has successfully taken its competitive advantage and Now, California has put forward some standards for provided benefits to the public through dividends. what they call clean green energy, and you'll probably be 5802 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

surprised to learn that many of the independent power hockey games and playing across B.C., has said this is all projects that have been approved in British Columbia great; this is fantastic. do not qualify. So the premium that green, clean power Well, those that have been observing this place, those was supposed to get, the premium that the people of that have read the legislation, have had things like this California were going to pay to get rid of their gas plants, to say. These are just headlines. I don't want to burrow to get rid of their coal plants…. Many of the projects down too deeply, but in the Vancouver Sun, which I re- here don't qualify. ferred to earlier as the journal of record, the headline on I've had discussions with members of environmental May 13 read the following: "Public Interest Not Served organizations who have visited California — Sacramento, by Limiting Utilities Regulator." That was the headline San Francisco and other points south. I've talked to on an editorial in the Vancouver Sun. In the Globe and legislators there and asked: "Well, what's the likelihood Mail: "B.C. Sidelines Energy Regulator." That was on of a 250-megawatt run-of-river plant?" That's not micro- April 29, 2010. hydro, as you can well imagine, hon. Speaker. That's a In the Vancouver Province. I'm going to have to read big plant. That's not a weir; that's a dam, in my mind. My some of this, because Brian Lewis rarely writes things colleague from Delta North will have something to say that I agree with. He's written a whole, entire column about that in the days ahead. These are big facilities, and here, and I want to read much of it into the record. In his the footprint, the environmental degradation of these column on the sixth of May he said: "Premier's Power plants do not comply with the standards in California. Grab Is Bad News for You and Me." We have our heritage assets, as they're called now, that Those are the headlines in the three major papers in had a significant impact. I've talked about that at some our province with respect to this bill. length. We sell into the marketplace not at a premium [1745] but at the market rates because we've amortized the debt. Now, you wouldn't know that, watching the ads on We've paid off the debt for those dams a long time ago. television that B.C. Hydro's promoting. You'd know that The cost of generating electricity from our heritage W.A.C. Bennett was one-time Premier of B.C., and that's assets is pennies. The cost of generating electricity from good to know. I knew that before the ads. I think many private power companies: $88 a megawatt hour, on aver- British Columbians would have known that — an illus- age. So that means we're up around $100 a megawatt trious 20-year run. You'd think that most people would hour, up to $120 a megawatt hour, for some of the power have known that. But there it is. B.C. Hydro has decided that B.C. Hydro is now forced to buy. to spend money telling people that once upon a time, Now, I've called that junk, and they've taken issue on back before 1972, this guy was the Premier, and that's the other side. But if you've got pennies on one side and good. As a historian, I am encouraged by that. Any time $120 a megawatt hour on the other, it strikes me that we can expand public knowledge about our history, it's fairly difficult in a marketplace that, according to the that's a good thing. budget documents, has the average price for electricity But nowhere in the ads does it say the following, and at below 50 bucks. Buying at $120 and selling at $50 — this is the lead from Brian Lewis's column on May 6. It how are we doing on that? I bet the kids from Brennan goes as follows, and I know my friend from Whalley is Creek wouldn't do that. I don't know who would do that. sitting in rapt attention. It says as follows. Who would buy power at $70 more than you can sell it "Silly me. If it hadn't happened right before my eyes, I'd have for and call that good public policy — anybody? sworn there's no such thing as the divine right of Premiers. Sure, high school history taught us about divine right of kings — medi- eval doctrine that claimed the monarch is subject to no earthly Interjection. authority, including the will of the people, and derived the right to rule only from God. J. Horgan: The member for Shuswap. You're missing "However, the new Clean Energy Act tells me there has to be a divine right of Premiers, at least in B.C. How else do you explain the point, Member, and with your intellect, I would have a blatant power grab by Premier" — who is named in the article, thought you'd be able to follow me here. So $120, $50. the member for Vancouver–Point Grey — "that permeates this That doesn't work. It doesn't work — simple as that. proposed legislation?" You know, I'll go and stand on the steps and call it junk That's the question posed byB rian Lewis, an observer of power if it will satisfy the member from Prince George. politics in British Columbia for some considerable per- iod of time, and the people at the Province pay him to Interjection. regularly write his thoughts on what happens here. Unfortunately, he's not quoted in the B.C. Hydro ads. J. Horgan: Yeah, your constituents and the independ- I don't know why they would miss something like that. ent power…. Yeah, they've been there for me all the time. "The divine right of Premiers" has kind of a ring to it. I want to read to you, hon. Speaker, some of the head- I've made reference to the airlifting of supporters up lines that have resulted from the tabling of this bill. Now, to Hudson's Hope. The Infrastructure Minister had the the government, in their ads that are playing in the good fortune of flying up there with many other people Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5803

to announce the advancing from stage 2 to stage 3 of a linked into the proliferation and development of pri- five-stage process for Site C. It was a glorious day. The vate power companies. But most of all, what troubles sun was shining. The camera angles were just right. The me about this debate is that we've gone from a position Premier stood on the hill like a prophet and said: "Let that the government held, that we required new sources there be Site C." And there was Site C. Now it is exempt of supply to meet our domestic needs…. That was the from regulation in this bill. argument that the previous minister would make to me. One project, one review or whatever the tag line is He would say: "We need to be self-sufficient in elec- now on the other side. We don't need regulation. We trons." They're this big, hon. Speaker. You can't see them, don't need no stinkin' regulation, as they would say in they're so small, but we need to be self-sufficient. the 'hood. We've got exemptions here in our bill. That's [1750] all we need. "We only can make them here. Nowhere else will we Let me read a little bit more from Brian Lewis in his accept an electron." Uh-uh. Won't happen. Our electrons column — and I'm happy to see the minister's return — have to be B.C. We can't put a stamp on them. You can't "Premier's Power Grab Is Bad News for You and Me." put a little label that says: "The Gala apple was grown here." "His government is gutting most of the B.C. Utilities Com- There are no stamps to put on our electrons. They're really, mission's regulatory power and transferring it to cabinet, which realistically means the power is being wheeled directly into the really small. Premier's office." Interesting. "Once the deed is done the pro- tective regulatory firewall that stood between B.C. Hydro and Hon. G. Abbott: What an insight. its ratepayers will have been dismantled. "That firewall meant that before B.C. Hydro could build new J. Horgan: Yes, it's a good insight. I've given some projects, introduce new programs or increase rates it had to make its case to the commission." wisdom to the member for Shuswap, and he is rejoicing The minister will know, as he said six months ago…. in that.

Deputy Speaker: Member, you will know that refer- Hon. G. Abbott: I'd never thought of that before. encing the absence or presence of members of the House is not appropriate. J. Horgan: Well, there you go. I'm glad that I've brought something new to the table. J. Horgan: I apologize. Rhetorical flourish. I'm often afflicted by that. If anyone was offended, I retract that. Hon. G. Abbott: I've got to tune in to this network Maybe we can scratch that out. Look at Hansard. Maybe more often. you can just take your pencil and rub that off for me. Thanks very much. J. Horgan: Yeah, we're here every night. I've lost my train of thought, which is…. A slumped So we don't need to be self-sufficient. We've got a minister and an endorsement from Langara. Why don't coastline larger than any other province in Canada. We I have a drink, then. don't need to be self-sufficient in boatbuilding. We can get our boats from Germany. We can send $800 million Interjections. to a port town on the North Sea. That's okay. We don't need to be self-sufficient in that. J. Horgan: A train to derail. We don't want to talk about But our electrons, which are this big, no label — grown trains, Minister. We don't want to talk about trains. here, product of British Columbia…. It doesn't say that I've got two glasses over here. I feel like John A. on the electrons, really small. But that, by mandate, by Macdonald. My goodness. It's water. We're fine. Some statute, now is required. And it's better than that. Not humour, some levity. It's good to see. only do we have to be self-sufficient — only electrons I missed your song last night. Maybe you can play it born and raised here in British Columbia — we need an for me later. insurance policy. We need to buy 3,000 gigawatt hours more than we Interjections. need in high-water years to satisfy what, exactly. Peak demand? No. Because we can satisfy peak demand today, J. Horgan: Here until Thursday. That's great. Very good. right now. We can satisfy our needs at six o'clock right So we've talked about the role of the regulator. The across British Columbia with our domestic power sup- minister will know — his quote to me — that we would ply. In addition to that, we have 1,400 megawatts that we see a business plan before the regulator on smart meters, sell in the United States each and every day, and have guaranteed six months ago…. Not so much anymore. been doing so since 1996, called the downstream bene- That's not going to happen, and that's unfortunate. fits from the Columbia River treaty. We've talked about our export policy that has served Some 1,400 megawatts that we've been selling from us very well for decades that now has been somehow the downstream benefits of theC olumbia River treaty in 5804 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

the United States…. I asked the previous minister, and I three times. Some 500,000 people have signed a petition. haven't had the good fortune of asking the current min- The chances of him putting his name on a ballot again, ister, if he considered those electrons, very tiny, owned I would argue, are very slim. Now, I've been wrong on by the people of British Columbia, to be part of our do- these things in the past. I may be wrong on this. But it's mestic supply. Uh-uh. No go. Can't do that, because $10 billion of our money, ratepayers' money, that's now the downstream benefits are an asset of the province of exempt from oversight. That is a power grab. That is a British Columbia — not B.C. Hydro, the people of B.C. power grab. We own that. That was our entitlement from the I want to talk…. I think I might have exhausted my Columbia River treaty, that so-called benign event narrative on the Utilities Commission. brought upon us by W.A.C. Bennett that had no negative impacts — only positive, only good. From that we did Interjections. get something very positive, the downstream benefits. Can we factor that 1,400 megawatts, Member for J. Horgan: Oh, I've got much more to go. I have piles Vancouver-Kingsway, into our assessment of our self- of stuff over here, Member.F ear not; fear not. Your time sufficiency needs? will be well spent, an education. I want to talk about the B.C. Transmission Corporation. A. Dix: Rational people would. Oh, I can see the minister shrugging his shoulders and going, "Oh, here it comes" — another one, another blow J. Horgan: Rational people would. I agree. Rational to the body politic here, another "this is then, this is now" people would. They'd say: "That's an asset, 1,400 mega- scenario. watts. That's gold. We can sell that toB .C. Hydro. They'll I want to say that the hon. , who, sadly, have supply to meet our peak demand at six o'clock. is no longer with us, said the following, in introducing They'll be born here. If we could stamp them, we would. what was Bill 39. I'm going to refer to him as the former We'd call them a product of B.C., and we'd all be good." member for Comox, if everyone's okay with that. The But no, not in this world, not in the King Lear world of former member for Comox said the following: the member for Vancouver–Point Grey. Can't have it. "I'm pleased to introduce Bill 39, the Transmission Corporation What we need instead, hon. Speaker and members of Act…. As part of our energy plan commitments, we are creating this place, is to buy power from the people who give us this new corporation to efficiently manageB .C. Hydro's transmis- sion grid. The bill is a positive step forward in implementing the political contributions. That's what we need to do. Private province's energy plan, a plan designed to deliver the lowest-pos- power production is good; downstream benefits, appar- sible electricity rates, a secure and reliable supply of energy and ently, are bad. Now, that determination was made long more private sector opportunities — all in an environmentally before we even trenched power in the hands of cabinet, responsible way." wrestled it away from our independent regulator, the "The B.C. Utilities Commission will regulate B.C. Utilities Commission. This was a policy that was made Transmission Corp, keeping it free from political inter- before the current minister took up the office with the ference. This is a new-era promise, and a new energy drapes that have been there forever, a long time ago. plan delivers on that commitment." That was from I'm curious. Here we are at a time, at a crossroads. The Hansard, May 2003. That was then. This is now. minister has laid it out fairly clearly that the future is un- This is what the B.C. Utilities Commission and B.C. certain. Why don't we, instead of saying that we're going to Hydro were sending to employees, talking about the re- exempt $10 billion worth of projects, from transmission lines integration of B.C. Transmission Corporation and B.C. to smart meters to new upgrades at existing facilities…? Hydro: "As a united organization…." Rather than spend that $10 billion and then go ask We separated them, hon. Speaker. I hope I've been ratepayers to pay for it, why don't we start by bringing clear on that. We had a fully integrated utility — dis- back those downstream benefits that we're selling in the tribution, generation, transmission — that served us United States today? Some 1,400 megawatts, and that's very, very well. Public service employees providing a re- a lot of power. That's more than Site C, and you could turn…. The minister applauds the good work of those have it tomorrow, not ten years from now — tomorrow. people, as do I. [1755] The previous minister decided we only needed to Not going to happen. Not going to do it because remove one-third of them to the private sector in a sweet- it doesn't fit into the little box that the member for heart deal for Accenture, who now is in the business of, Vancouver–Point Grey has forced the minister to get apparently, doing wind turbines. They used to do back himself into, and unfortunately, ratepayers are going to office stuff.N ow they call themselves Finavera, and they be penalized as a result of that. Ten billion dollars' worth apparently erect windmills. Although I've never done it, of projects someone has to pay for. we're looking forward to seeing how that goes. In the member for Vancouver–Point Grey's world, Four contracts, hon. Member. Four energy purchase it's not his money. He doesn't care. He's been elected agreements — never done it before, but that must make Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5805

sense. If you're going to spend $10 billion without over- Interjections. sight, why not? Why not? Have at it. I'm sure they'll be really good at it. They'll probably make it as straight as J. Horgan: Oh my goodness. We're getting giddy. Hon. they can, the wind will blow, it will spin, it will make Speaker, the blood sugar is definitely low. electricity, and everyone will be happy, particularly the If they don't like that, I want to talk about the Bentall shareholders at Finavera. Centre. There will be members from Vancouver that This is before. We need to separate them in the inter- will know the Bentall Centre. It's a prestigious building ests of good public policy. Now, this is what we've said, right in the heart of downtown Vancouver. If they don't B.C. Transmission Corporation and B.C. Hydro, to their like thetyee.ca, why don't I just read what the website employees: "As a united organization, the two Crowns for the Bentall says? It gushes, in fact: "Spanning over will be better able to plan the activities needed to sup- 1.5 million square feet, the Bentall Centre offers four of- port the province's vision for the clean energy sector and fice towers and an expansive retail mall complete with to help it thrive in the years ahead. The formation of a exterior waterfalls, reflecting pools and a multitude of single" — this is the best part; if only I had the dramatic wide-open spaces filled with native foliage and colour- flair of the member for Shuswap — "company with a sin- ful planters." gle responsibility…." That's the Bentall Centre. That's where the B.C. Transmission Corporation currently occupies a ten-year Interjection. lease. How's that going to go? I heard the minister say that we're going to transfer assets and liabilities. I guess J. Horgan: Oh now, Member. Please, this is a cre- that lease is one of those liabilities. Maybe we could move scendo. You would know a crescendo. Here we go. in some ministers. Maybe we could get the Minister of I'm going to start again, hon. Speaker, if you don't Housing to take that space. We've got four years left on mind. "The formation of a single company with a single the lease. responsibility will be able to more effectively and seam- I'm sure we could put some of the homeless in lessly manage key issues and relationships currently split Vancouver in the Bentall Centre. After all, there are between the two organizations." reflective pools and a multitude of wide-open spaces. Wow, good idea. Seven years. We need to rip these We've got three more years on the lease. The upside is things apart in the interest of good public policy. We the lease was only $13.4 million, but of course, we had can't keep them together any longer. They're like polar the leasehold improvements. opposites. We've got to keep them apart. They'll fight all What self-respecting new corporation created out of the time, the transmission people, the generation people. the ether by the B.C. Liberal energy policy…? You've got They squawk and squawk. We're better off this way. That to put in a new boardroom, maybe some etchings to go was then; this is now. with the reflective pools. So you've got a $13.4 million [1800] lease. Throw on $1.5 million in leasehold improvements, and you've got yourself a liability. That's what you've Hon. K. Krueger: Things change over time, except for got, because now, in the interests of good public policy, the NDP. the former member for Comox said, we have to create two entities — really got to do it. It's everyone's interest. J. Horgan: Things change over time. We're all going to be able to work together. California So this costly experiment…. will love us for this. Maybe they'll pay us the $300 mil- lion they owe us. Interjections. Interjection. J. Horgan: Yeah, yeah. There will be blood somewhere. So this B.C. Transmission Corporation experiment — J. Horgan: Yeah, I should have gone down there as how did that work out? How did that go? a staff person and wrestled it out of the hands of the governor. The Premier spent more time with Arnie Interjection. than I ever have. He could have asked him at any time — maybe when he was carrying the torch, maybe at the J. Horgan: It's not before the courts. It's not before the opening ceremonies: "Hey, Arnie, that seat's going to courts, although it should be. A costly failure, I would cost you 300 million bucks." No, it was free, gratis. "Go argue, and I have some supports in thetyee.ca website. ahead. Here's a coat. Have a coat and a tuque. Give us 300 million bucks. You can have a pair of socks to go Interjections. with it." I tell you.

J. Horgan: I can understand the minister's…. Interjection. 5806 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

J. Horgan: I am bitter, Member. I am bitter. I think it's I want to talk a little bit about First Nations, because I outrageous, and so do British Columbians, by the way. I know the member for Shuswap will be interested in this. would argue that most Liberals do too. Today I received a document from the Assembly of First I'm just reading from the website at the Bentall Centre, Nations, and 47 nations had signed on — 47 and count- where we now have about a $3.5 million liability. Who's ing — to a document that calls on the government to going to pay for that, hon. Speaker? Is it the Premier? Is withdraw this legislation. he going to say: "You know what? I made a mistake"? This is a joint statement from the Assembly of First Nations. So 47 chiefs have signed on, 47 and counting, Interjection. and it goes as follows. It's a joint statement from partici- pating nations regarding the B.C. Clean Energy Act. J. Horgan: They might be able to use it. The problem Now, I heard both ministers, the Minister of Energy with that, though, is they're not going to need as many and the Minister of Aboriginal Relations, today com- executives. You see, they're integrating the companies. I menting on how they would welcome intervention from could read further from the brief to the staff. This is the the First Nations. That would be a good thing. "Well, now as opposed to the then. we'd love to sit down and talk with them." Well, you had an opportunity to sit down and talk Hon. K. Krueger: This is socialist business 101. with them before you tabled the bill, and then, maybe, you would have avoided the embarrassment of seeing J. Horgan: Oh yeah, this is a socialist business. This is their reconciliation…. the guy that delivered a convention centre at $500 mil- lion over budget and took a phone call from a buddy to Hon. K. Krueger: Are you embarrassed? We're not. put a $500 million lid on a stadium so he could build a casino beside it, and it's socialist business. Socialist busi- J. Horgan: Well, you know, that's the tragedy. That's ness. Holy cow. the tragedy — that you're not embarrassed. I thought a little bit of humility to go with the hubris…. Balance Interjection. your h's, Minister.

J. Horgan: I'm not smokin' nothing. If you're advocating Deputy Speaker: Member, your comments are directed that, I'm shocked and appalled, Member. I'm shocked to the Chair. and appalled. Absolutely. J. Horgan: Yes, hon. Speaker, thank you very much. Interjections. I'll turn away from the extraneous noise and focus on the important substance of what I'm about to lay before Deputy Speaker: Members. Members. the Legislature. This is what was contained in a joint statement. J. Horgan: So we've got excess office space. We've "Whereas the 2005 new relationship statement agrees to estab- lish processes and institutions for shared decision-making about got an extraneous board. We're going to have to let the land and resources and for revenue and benefit-sharing, it those B.C. Liberals go that we've appointed to the B.C. agrees to a new government-to-government relationship based Transmission Corporation board. on respect, recognition and accommodation of aboriginal title [1805] and rights. I don't think there will be any severance for board "Whereas the B.C. government has recently held first reading of the Clean Energy Act, this act represents the future direction of members, but there may well be for senior executives. green energy production and exports. This act was constructed The minister has admitted in his remarks that we will without First Nations involvement, and there was no consulta- be transferring liabilities. I'm hopeful that when we tion prior to the introduction of the act. We are told the act was look back on the failed experiments of creating a sep- guided by the Green Energy Task Force" — what I heard from the ministers today — "however, upon review of the legislation arate transmission corporation from generation and it is clear that the majority of the First Nations recommendations distribution, someone will take the credit for the hit to were ignored." ratepayers. And they were. I can read them out to you. There were It's estimated in the range of about $65 million, and six. Do you want to hear from my colleague from Powell that's just…. River–Sunshine Coast? There were six recommendations from the Green Energy Task Force. Interjection. A little aside, if I might. I know time is running down, but I've got a few moments. J. Horgan: Oh, Member. Goodness me. Don't give me The minister said in his remarks that the act was any sermons on saving money. You're just the wrong guy guided by the work of the Green Energy Task Force. Now, to do that. Unbelievable. this was a group of mostly friends of the government, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5807

but some thoughtful people as well, and I know many "The Clean Energy Act exempts significant major hydro and of them on the task force were very capable British transmission projects from oversight by the…commission; and whereas the…Crown has unilaterally implemented these sweep- Columbians, giving up their time to try and make a ing changes and ignored the court-recognized legal obligations" — better policy outcome. That is what we all expect and and I know this has piqued the interest of the Minister of Aborig- what we all encourage from our citizens. I don't want to inal Relations; it says "legal obligations" here — "for meaningful disparage the individuals, beyond saying that not all of consultation and accommodation in the development of the Clean Energy Act. them were Liberal. "We, the assembled Nations from across B.C., speak with one voice to say (1) we call upon the B.C. government to amend the Interjection. proposed act and incorporate all recommendations that support First Nations involvement in the Clean Energy Act." J. Horgan: Disparagement is what I do. The Queen That's what they've asked for. pays me for this. I told you that earlier on. You asked these people to come together, Minister. This group was appointed. There were four task forces, You didn't ask them: "Come together, give five ideas, four tables appointed. I know there was a PR expert, and we'll take two." You didn't say that. You said: "Come James Hoggan, who has worked tirelessly on promoting together with your ideas. We'll incorporate them into our these issues; Dave Porter, and both ministers will know plan." A vision for all British Columbians, Mr. Speaker, Dave Porter, a very capable fellow. not just the member for Vancouver–Point Grey — that's There were six specific recommendations put forward what we're looking for in this House. That's what mem- by First Nations. "Expand the current revenue-sharing bers on that side should be looking for, and that's what model" — not in the act. "Priority consideration should the Assembly of First Nations is looking for. be given to First Nations in the issuance of all new ten- Their second point. "We call upon the Premier and ures" — not in the act. That's two. cabinet to immediately engage in discussion with First [1810] Nations leaders to work out a solution to incorporate "The province should review and strengthen the our recommendations." That's the proposal. That's the Environmental Assessment" Act. That wasn't part of the request. I am certain that the administrative coordin- aboriginal component. ators for the two ministers are working on that, setting The third one. "The province andF irst Nations should up that meeting right now. I welcome news of that be- enter into discussion on the ownership and beneficial fore the hour is up. That would be fantastic. I know that use of carbon values with respect to green energy pro- the assembly would be delighted to hear that. jects with a view to concluding an agreement on the The third and final point, perhaps the most salient sharing of those values" — not in the act. one and the one that the minister should pay closest "Where First Nations and local communities dem- attention to. "We call upon the B.C. government to delay onstrate the capacity and interest for inclusion in a B.C. the bill until adequate consultation and accommodation Hydro IPP call, B.C. Hydro should initiate an IPP call with First Nations occurs."— that's the third point. that gives priority to First Nations and local communities" I believe that that's the right course of action. If the — not in the act. government was truly sincere and genuine about cre- You asked these citizens to come together, Minister ating a vision for our energy future that included all and government. You asked them to come together and British Columbians, you'd think they'd start with First offer their time and toil and sweat and ideas. They com- Nations. You'd think they'd start right there. mitted it to paper. They presented it to government. An The environmental community is not necessarily expectation, because of all the fanfare…. "We're going enamoured as well with Premier Green Jeans and his to just clean this up," the Premier said; the minister was proposals that were supposed to revolutionize environ- at his side. "We're going to appoint these fine citizens to mental thinking as we know it in B.C. Ms. Berman has give us advice and input on our Clean Energy Act." gone off toA msterdam. Maybe she's taken the advice of So you can well imagine the surprise of the Assembly the member from Kamloops…. of First Nations when Bill 17 was tabled. They quickly cracked the cover and started to look for their work, Interjection. their view, their vision in the act — not to be found. Not to be found, Minister. That's a problem. J. Horgan: Yeah, she gave an award to the Premier, who just approved a 3 percent increase in our green- Interjection. house gas emissions with one stroke of the pen. The WesternC anada Wilderness Committee, Pembina J. Horgan: Well, they don't. We've got an agreement Institute, Sierra Club, West Coast Environmental Law, to disagree here. This is how we go…. Watershed Watch, Save Our Rivers…. The list goes on Again, the statement from the 47 chiefs, and counting, and on of environmental organizations concerned and goes as follows: perplexed at the direction that the government is going. 5808 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

The WestC oast Environmental Law says the following J. Horgan: I don't know if the member, when she was with respect to the Clean Energy Act: "…fails to commit in her constituency visiting folks, had an opinion poll in the province to achieving its energy objectives with the her pocket, but the last couple that I've looked at have lowest possible environmental impact, fails to ensure a been fairly drastically opposed to the position of the transparent, inclusive and comprehensive planning process, government. does not guarantee meaningful public consultation in So they put forward the Clean Energy Act in the that planning process, eliminates independent oversight hope that it would somehow make the world right again. of energy planning in many major projects, does not re- "Everything's going to be fine. We just have to impose quire regional planning to identify the best options for our will upon the people of British Columbia. We have development…." to make an inventory of projects that will total in the [1815] neighbourhood of $10 billion, exempt from any regula- This is where I think members on this side of the tory process that we've had in the past." And that is good House — who are still comfortable going to see their news, according to the B.C. Liberal Party. It's not good constituents on weekends — differ from the government. news according to the Assembly of First Nations, not And that's the nature of government and opposition. good news according to West Coast Environmental Law. People are happy to see us, because they can bring their Now, the Pembina Institute is more on the fence here. grievances and we can bring them to this place in the The author of this report was a member of the task force, hope…. and he says that there are major issues that deserve fur- ther debate. The minister again, I'm sure, will be paying Interjection. attention to this. "The act shifts decision-making power from the B.C. Utilities Commission to the B.C. cabinet for J. Horgan: Well, I don't know if that's actually fair, most decisions about how much electricity will be pro- duced in the province. Cabinet decisions in this regard Minister. But fair enough; you can say that. are expected to be based on the result of an integrated re- We have different roles, and we're approached differ- source planning process conducted by B.C. Hydro." ently, and I respect and understand how uncomfortable The minister talked about that. The integrated re- it must be for members of government in the current source plans will come forward — apparently in the next climate to go home. nine months, 18 months? — in the next year and a half that will look at the next 30 years of policy development Interjections. and infrastructure development in British Columbia. On the surface, I think people would say that's a good J. Horgan: Well, I don't know. I've heard some boos. idea. We should have a plan. We should look at it. We My friend from Richmond might tell us about the boos. should make sure there's buy-in from everyone. Well, B.C. Hydro did that last summer. They tabled Interjections. what's called their long-term acquisition plan, or their LTAP. Acronyms abound at the Utilities Commission J. Horgan: So we're back to West Coast Environmental and in government, as members know. The long-term Law, hon. Speaker. If we could reduce the distractions, acquisition plan was a hybrid, a subset of the integrated we may well be able to wrap this up before seven o'clock. resource plans. Hydro brings them forward regularly. So West Coast Environmental Law. We talked about The commission looks at them. They take into account the regional planning process to identify the best op- government's positions. They take into account special tions for development, and their concern is that the act directions, which have been numerous from this govern- short-circuits the planning process by predetermining ment since 2001, although they didn't want to interfere critical policy outcomes. Now, what does that mean — politically in the Utilities Commission. predetermining critical policy outcomes? The long-term acquisition plan was rejected by the regu- Well, I would suggest to the minister that it's the lator. Now, members will say: "Well, that was just this rogue exemption list that's reducing the ability for the pub- panel of individuals that somehow didn't get it." This was a lic to have input on critical policy issues. That's the rub. group of individuals appointed by the government, given That's the concern. That's why people are lining up to statutory obligations and responsibilities. They discharged oppose your legislation. those responsibilities in an open session, an independent Now, I know you've spent a lot of money on the ads. I session where cross-examination could take place. know you're trying to find a glimmer of good news from Hydro brought forward their plan, as they will in this what has been a disastrous session in the Legislature. act, but not to cabinet, not to the rubber stamp where the This bill is supposed to be it. Premier says: "Yes, I want smart meters. They're a billion dollars. I don't care. I want everyone to have one." Interjection. [1820] Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5809

I don't know if you can download songs on to these have we had such a large cabinet, but I'm sure each and things, but they're supposed to be really cool if you like every one of them is steeped in electricity policy. They gadgets. But what I think most British Columbians want understand the give-and-take of a Crown corporation. is to keep their rates down. They're staring down the They'll be able to make reasoned decisions on $10 barrel of a $1.9 billion tax transfer with the HST, a 29 billion in expenditures, knowing with confidence that percent rate increase before the installation of smart me- they have a background in this area, and just because ters, before the purchase of the clean power call in the B.C. Hydro says that they can do it for this much, they're $400 million to $500 million range. going to say: "Good enough for me. Good enough for A 29 percent rate increase — that's harsh for people me." The best part of this is that it goes from the cabinet on fixed incomes. All of us in this place have families room to the commission, where the commission must and individuals who are going to have a difficult time approve the project and any rate increase that's associ- meeting their needs on these issues. So what does the ated with it. government do to try and resolve those issues? They Wow. I just have to stop for a moment and say: "Imagine take regulation away from the Utilities Commission if we did that." Imagine the noise, the raining down of in- when it comes to setting rates on projects that I've just vective from the Liberals on the other side if it was a New identified. Democrat government that said: "You know what? We've The minister will say in his wrap-up: "Well, the mem- decided we don't want anybody poking in…." ber for Juan de Fuca said that the commission no longer has the ability to set rates. They do. It's in the act." True Interjection. enough. Also in the act is that the Utilities Commission shall approve whatever rates are required to meet the J. Horgan: A rate freeze was a darn good idea. You go capital costs of $10 billion worth of projects. So the min- talk to any British Columbian about that. Unbelievable. ister will be able to have it both ways. This is the beauty of the B.C. Liberals. They criticized a He'll be able to say to me, as he wraps up this debate government for keeping rates down, and then they impose next week when closure is introduced or whatever mech- $10 billion worth of rate costs onto consumers and say that anism the government uses to stifle this last opportunity they're good managers. Outrageous. Playing catch-up. — this last opportunity — for public discussion of $10 The minister assumes —I guess it's from listening too billion worth of projects…. He's going to stand in his…. long to the member for Shuswap — that no expendi- tures were made in the 1990s. Nothing happened in the Interjection. 1990s. Patently false. Go to Stave Falls; go to Seven Mile; go to any number of hydro facilities that saw upgrades J. Horgan: Done — I can't listen to that anymore. and investment in the 1990s. This mythology that comes It's $10 billion worth of projects. This is the last op- from the minister, who was not here at the time…. portunity for the public to have any input into those He is a scholar, I know. He has looked into this. He's projects, because from this point on, if this bill passes, not just taking the word of the public affairs bureau. cabinet will make those decisions. There will not be any There was money. News flash: money was spent in the public…. 1990s on hydro facilities. Keenleyside springs to mind. We may have an open cabinet meeting. That was a In any event, the point I'm making is that we introduce a commitment, a new-era commitment. The Minister for rate freeze, and the members on this side say: "Oh, that's Climate Action has never had the benefit of an open outrageous. What a shameful thing to do." They intro- cabinet meeting because when he was elected they did duce a 29 percent rate increase, and they say: "We're away with them. I'm sure there's no correlation there, good managers. We have the public interest at heart." but we haven't had an open cabinet meeting since I've been here, and we came at the same time. An Hon. Member: It's pathetic. The challengeI see is that if we're not going to have an [1825] open cabinet meeting again, the chances of having some cross-examination opportunities for interested parties J. Horgan: It is pathetic. It's beyond pathetic. It's as we have at the Utilities Commission are gone, kaput, shameful. I will continue to make that case, as will my finis. With this bill, the public will no longer be able to colleagues over the next number of days. I've talked burrow down into the costs of these projects — $10 bil- about the exempt projects. I've talked about rate in- lion. No oversight, save and except the 25 people in the creases. I just want to read. I know at second reading bloated cabinet of the member for Vancouver–Point we're focusing on the principles of the bill, but I think Grey. it's important for members who haven't had the oppor- It's the largest cabinet in history — side note; not tunity to read the bill…. really important. But if anyone's watching, it's nice to I know all members on the government side certainly put that in your box of interesting facts. Never before would have done so because there is potential that they 5810 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

may well be in cabinet one day, and then they'll get to ap- We're still waiting. I know the Minister of Forests was prove $10 billion worth of projects. So I'm hopeful that going to get back to me with information on the inves- they're reading the act so they have some grasp of the tigation that was underway after the Rutherford Creek power they now have at their disposal. All they need is a Bridge incident. I await that information. I know he's wink and a nod from the member for Vancouver–Point working on it. Grey, and they, too, can have the big office and then set We've talked about exports. What we haven't spent electricity policy unencumbered by cross-examination, time on…. We've talked about the Transmission unencumbered by the public interest as put forward by Corporation. We've talked about Highway 37. What we citizens at an independent commission. haven't talked about is storage, and this is something…. They'll be able to just make those decisions in the I touched upon it briefly. The ability to store electricity cloaked room in the west annex with the windows is the real value of B.C. Hydro. Not only do we have closed and the spiral staircase and all the neat stuff that's an abundance of rain here in British Columbia in the over there. When you get into cabinet, you get to go up rain forest, but we're able to store it. The impacts — I've and down the spiral staircase and eat free lunches on touched upon those. They were not insignificant, but the Wednesdays. That was the highlight, I remember, in the benefit today is obvious, tangible, andI think supported 1990s — that free lunch on Wednesday for all those cab- by all British Columbians. I genuinely believe that. inet ministers. We have to be mindful of the damage in the past and Section 8 of the bill goes as follows. "In setting rates work towards ensuring that we don't repeat that carnage under the Utilities Commission Act for the authority, in the future. I've given that assurance to the minister — the commission must ensure that the rates allow the au- that if he can demonstrate to me that projects will have thority to collect sufficient revenue in each fiscal year to minimal environmental impact, that they have broad enable it to recover the costs incurred with respect to…a community support, that they have First Nations partici- project, program, contract or expenditure referred to in pation where possible and where there is a definite public section 7(1)." interest in pursuing a project, he'll have my support. Section 1 says that all these projects are exempt. So [1830] when the minister stands here at the end of second read- I was criticized. The member for Kingsway will re- ing and says that the commission still has authority to member this. I was criticized. Just prior to the election set rates, he's going to conveniently ignore section 8, campaign, a project near Lytton was approved, an IPP. which says that they must set rates so that Hydro can Small — I think it was 15 megawatts, in the tradition of meet its capital obligations and responsibilities — $10 micro-hydro. Not 250 megawatts, not 1,000 megawatts billion worth and counting. Goodness knows what the like Bute Inlet, but 15 megawatts. aggregator role will mean as we assemble IPP power for A full partnership with the Lytton band to address sale in the United States market. a longstanding issue about brownouts in the Fraser I'm running short of energy and vigour. You haven't Canyon — good project; support of the community — had as much fun all day. Admit it. achieved a result that Hydro was not prepared to do, by looping the transmission system through the valley. I, Interjection. asked an honest question, gave an honest answer. I said: "It's a good idea; we should do that." J. Horgan: I'll do that. Cheers. With that encourage- Well, the little spinmeisters in Liberal dirt con- ment from the member for Shuswap, how could I not trol downstairs couldn't get the press releases out fast carry on? enough: "MLA from Juan de Fuca says something sens- We talked about self-sufficiency and the notion that ible." Of course, there was much surprise on my side of we can't buy an electron that doesn't have a made-in-B.C. the House at that. Not so much from my friend from stamp on the side of it. We've talked about environmental Port Moody — he knows me to be sensible in all things. damage. There's the cumulative impact which has been But the issue at the time was: is this a good idea in this added to the bill. This is a positive thing. But what is go- one-off situation? Is there a regional benefit? Is there ing to happen at the environmental assessment office? a provincial benefit? There was, to both counts. I said: What does that mean? There's a consequential amend- "Good idea." ment in the bill that may well lead to a positive outcome. Well, I was pilloried by the government members. I'm going to have to wait and see. My colleague from "Oh, you flip-flop, and you're doing this, and you're do- Kingsway is reviewing the bill to give me his opinion be- ing that." They should know by now that public policy fore I conclude my remarks. isn't that easy. You can't say on one day that everything There is significant environmental damage from some is black and then discover the next day that it's white and of the run-of-river projects that have been proposed deny it. You have to recognize that you live in a black- and contemplated. Certainly the Rutherford Creek issue and-white world. That's what we do on this side of the we've talked about in this House. A tragedy occurred. House. Sometimes some members on that side of the Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5811

House will acknowledge that life is tough. Sometimes to them through the Utilities Commission. This was the they will acknowledge that. It's rare. cause of great concern. You can well imagine my surprise when I read a press Interjection. release from the joint industry people saying that this is a good bill — end of story. Not any analysis of it. Just: J. Horgan: Name names. I can't do that in the House. "We support it." That was the cost, I suppose, of this I've been chastised once already. clause: "You must issue a press release." The storage issue is what makes the Crown valuable. [1835] Why the private power folks are so keen to get this bill This is what the clause says: "The authority must -es passed is that they will then be able to access shaping tablish, in accordance with the regulations, a program and firming services from the corporation at a minimal to develop potential offers respecting domestic long- cost. term sales contracts for availability to prescribed classes How are we going to quantify that? It's not in the bill. of customers on prescribed terms, including terms re- How are we going to pay for the marketing, the aggre- specting price, for prescribed volumes of energy over gation of these IPPs? Not in the bill. We've got shaping prescribed periods." and firming services and marketing capacity from B.C. Now, what does that mean? I know that the folks on Hydro — three very, very valuable…. In fact, without the other side will understand this. That means that those three elements, the independent power that's pro- prescribed customers, mostly industrial users…. I'm a duced today is of little value on the open market, little prescribed customer. Everyone in this place who uses value indeed. B.C. Hydro to light their home is a residential customer, People want firm, uninterruptible power. The minister and we are a class of customers. What this clause does is knows this. He's had briefings on this.H e must remember it allows large industrial customers to go to B.C. Hydro this. How do you get that when you've got intermittent, and cut their own deal — not at the Utilities Commission, interruptible power? You use the reservoirs. as I read it, but at B.C. Hydro. I can see the IPP folks now, as they're writing their "Hey, I'm a big pulp mill. I can use a deal. I need a cheques to the B.C. Liberal Party. "Oh, by the way, about 20-year contract at $5 a megawatt hour." Done. It's right those reservoirs, are we going to have access to those in there in the bill — guaranteed low-cost, long-term con- the bill?" "You bet. How much do you need? How many tracts for some customers. feet?" "How far do we have to be in Golden from our re- Now, I'm wondering. I'm not certain of this. I'm re- sort? How far will the water go from the beachfront?" luctant to step out on a limb, as you know. I'm reluctant Will you have to walk seven kilometres if you live to do that, but I'm betting that most of the customers in that region? Maybe you will. That's the issue. In this in this prescribed class of customers have written a legislation there's no reference to firming or shaping or cheque, on occasion, to a political party represented in to storage capacity — how that can be of value to the in- this Legislature. I'm betting almost 25 cents, although I dependent power sector. don't support gaming in any form. I am in a hockey pool, The last pointI want to make…. I know there are many and that's as far as I'm prepared to go. I don't believe that members who want to participate in the debate. I'm very those cheques ever came to people on this side of the much looking forward to hearing from the member for House, but they probably, without any doubt, went to Kamloops–South Thompson. people on the other side of the House. We have a clause in the bill ensuring low-cost, Interjection. long-term power to a class of customers that isn't my neighbourhood and isn't the neighbourhood of the J. Horgan: Yeah, firming and shaping. member for Burnaby–Deer Lake. These are industrial There's one clause in here that's odd to me. It's sec- users that are probably going to be pretty happy about it. tion 9, "Domestic long-term sales contracts." I want to And that would explain…. draw attention to this particular section for all members of the House, particularly the member for Shuswap be- Interjection. cause I know he'll want to hear this. The domestic long-term sales contracts. Prior to the J. Horgan: "Well, they employ British Columbians, so tabling of this bill, the joint industry steering commit- let's give them subsidies. But we won't call them sub- tee, which is a collection of large industrial customers sidies, because we just don't do that. We're B.C. Liberals. — pulp mills, electrochemical companies, a whole host We call them something else. We hide them in bills." of large users like Catalyst, and I could list them — were That's the issue.I think this is an abomination. I think opposed to independent power production because they they're dressing it up to be something that it's not. I saw their rates going up as a result. The more costs that think that the Assembly of First Nations feels the same accrue to B.C. Hydro, the more costs will flow through way. There are many environmental organizations, andI 5812 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

know with absolute certainty that there are users — cit- On the question of natural gas, I just want to share a izens, ratepayers — who are going to see their rates go very interesting quote here from this member for Juan through the roof as a result of this bill. What the bene- de Fuca. This is on Hansard, and he said: "The natural fit to B.C. will be is uncertain to me. The rhetoric of the gas sector, as all members of the House should know, is minister and the rhetoric we will hear from others will driving our economy right now in terms of revenue…. not satisfy my concerns about this bill. I believe it should Were it not for natural gas, we wouldn't be having the be withdrawn. modest improvements that we have seen in our educa- I thank you very much for your time today. tion and health sectors, and I think that that industry quite rightly is on the vanguard of moving to a low-car- Hon. J. Yap: It's my honour to rise to speak in support bon economy." of Bill 17, the Clean Energy Act. I spent the last hour The member for Juan de Fuca is on the record as say- and a half or so listening intently to our colleague from ing that natural gas is a great thing, and for the last hour the other side, the member for Juan de Fuca. Before I or so I heard that member cast aspersions on the natural start into my presentation in regards to why this is such gas economic driver that is helping our economy, the an important piece of legislation — I'm grateful that my northeast part of our economy. So that was one. colleague the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum We all know. As the minister with responsibility for Resources has brought this forward — I just want to ad- climate action…. That member should know that nat- dress a few points — not every point but a few points ural gas is a great transition fuel. It's a great transition — that the member for Juan de Fuca brought up. fuel as we move long-term into the low-carbon economy First of all, the member should apologize to the hard- of the future, as we deal with climate change. Natural working people — men and women, British Columbians gas is a good fossil fuel, and we have loads of it in British — around the province who work in the clean energy in- Columbia. We want to get at it. We want to support the dependent power industry for when he referred to their industry to help us transition to a low-carbon economy. power as junk, calling them junk. It's unbelievable that So that is just one. the member would cast such aspersions on these British Another point that the member for Juan de Fuca Columbians who are working hard to help build a pros- said…. I'd just like to remind some members on the op- perous, low-carbon economy for British Columbia. He position who were not elected in the '90s, and maybe should apologize. they missed this, that in the 1990s there was no over- You know, the member for Juan de Fuca, towards the sight of B.C. Hydro. To suggest — like that member, and end, as he was starting to wrap up, talked about: "Oh yes, I'm sure we'll hear from others with this Clean Energy the NDP government in the 1990s did spend money in Act — that suddenly there will be no oversight is simply Hydro." I guess that list did have Hydro spend money, not true. BCUC will continue to have a role in oversight and I'm sure…. He was in government at the time — over the rates that ratepayers in British Columbia will a ministerial assistant, I understand — so he would pay. That will continue. be quite familiar with that project that wasn't even in I've got a couple more. The member for Juan de Fuca British Columbia, where $11 million was lost — a failed spent a bit of time early on criticizing…. hydro project in Raiwind. Where is Raiwind? [1840] Interjections.

Hon. K. Krueger: Wherever Ali Mahmood is. Hon. J. Yap: Oh, I was listening. Yes, yes. The mem- bers remarked that maybe I wasn't listening. I was Hon. J. Yap: In Pakistan, yes. My friend from listening, as I'm sure all my colleagues on this side were Kamloops is renowned for reminding us that this was listening, intently, to the words of the member for Juan just one of many, many missteps that that government de Fuca. — these members here who aspire to get back into gov- There was a point earlier on in his presentation when ernment — made in the 1990s. So that's one. he talked about this opening up of…. Why are we want- You know, I also heard the member for Juan de Fuca, ing the northwest transmission line investment? Why again, criticizing the tremendous investment in the nat- do we want to do that? Nobody is there. Well, granted, ural gas assets of our province — especially up in the he did say there were some prospective mine projects northeast, which is where a lot of the natural gas finds up there. are happening, where economic development is happen- It's exactly the kind of investment we need to have, ing. He specifically talked about the Cabin gas project, Madam Speaker, to encourage not just the mining in- which will be a tremendous economic driver for the dustry but the clean, renewable power generation that province of British Columbia, which will help us gener- can happen in that part of the province and that will ate the kinds of revenues that would allow us to pay for help us achieve our goal of being a clean energy power- such important services as health care and education. house in British Columbia. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5813

There were so many more. I just want to address one Deputy Speaker: Members. more that was covered by the member for Juan de Fuca. He talked about: "Oh, why look at this new technology Hon. J. Yap: I'd just like to share some observations by — smart-grid technology, digital technology — as a way commentators. Here's one from a highly respected jour- of encouraging conservation?" nalist from the Times Colonist, and he had this to write [1845] about the NDP's position on climate change. Here's This is very important, Madam Speaker. We want to what Les Leyne had to say. encourage conservation. He talked about retrofits, but He said: "Her position" — referring to the Leader of we didn't hear him…. I didn't hear the member give any the Opposition — "is a confusing mush of contradic- credit to this government for investing in retrofit pro- tions. When there's a choice between doing the right grams through the LiveSmart program. thing about climate change or gaining an edge over the We had a very successful first tranche of $60 million Liberals, the NDP has taken the latter option every time." that was taken up for retrofitting homes around the That's on climate change. There you go. province and a fresh $35 million that's available to help Here's another observation from another highly, British Columbians retrofit their homes, but we didn't highly respected journalist from the Globe and Mail. hear that from the member. I just wanted to address Here's what Gary Mason had to say about the Premier: that before I get into the gist of my presentation on why "So the Premier deserves enormous credit for the bold we need to have this landmark piece of legislation, the steps he's taken on the climate change file." That's what Clean Energy Act, Bill 17. was said; this is all part of the quote. "I say don't listen to I see this, as was mentioned in earlier debates, as an- the NDP's leaders, because what they are doing is play- other indication of the exciting times here in British ing politics with the planet. British Columbians should Columbia. I believe it was my colleague from Peace River be demanding to know what the NDP's grand plan is South, the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum for fighting climate change." Demanding it. Yeah, Gary Resources, who said: "These are exciting times inB ritish Mason said that. Columbia." And they really are, because we are at the forefront of…. Interjections. Let's step back a bit. First of all, we've just hosted the entire world at the most successful Winter Olympic Hon. J. Yap: Gary Mason said that, yes. Games in the history of the Olympic movement, right I'm about to wrap up the quote here, and I do note here in British Columbia. We've just hosted the world. the hour. "TheN DP's plans for reducing greenhouse gas We've shown what tremendous assets we have, how emissions are as vague and fuzzy as much of the party's blessed we are here in British Columbia. rhetoric around the issue suggests." We are an open trading economy of 4½ million people [1850] living in harmony, with a pretty high standard of living That's just for some context.A s I said, British Columbia and a strong economy, which is what we want to con- is blessed with natural assets. One of them, which didn't tinue to build right here in British Columbia — a strong happen accidentally, is our tremendous investment in economy for our children and their children. The Clean heritage hydro assets. Two generations ago the very vi- Energy Act, as we move towards the low-carbon econ- sionary government of the day, under Premier W.A.C. omy — the clean energy, the clean technology economy Bennett, started British Columbia down the path to be- — will help us get there. come the potential clean energy powerhouse — that I view the Clean Energy Act and what it will bring potential that we have. for British Columbia as very much a part of our climate action plan. Being the minister responsible for the cli- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] mate action plan, that is an issue that is very important to me, and I just want to set some context here, if I may, This bill, the Clean Energy Act, Bill 17, will help Madam Speaker. British Columbia, will help us here today to build on We know that members of the opposition seem to that advantage — those assets that we received and that sometimes have a position and sometimes not have a generations of British Columbians have benefited from position on climate change. They campaigned against over these last four-plus decades. our climate action plan, and their position was totally The member says that we're selling it to the private rejected by British Columbians. It's important for the sector. We know that the members of the NDP take their proper context of why the Clean Energy Act is such an marching orders from unions. We know that. We know important part of our climate action plan, of our eco- that the NDP have been told by their union masters that nomic plan. they have to oppose independent power production be- cause that's just not on. We know where they take their Interjections. marching orders from. 5814 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

In the time that I have left…. I do realize the hour. I Hon. K. Falcon: I am advised by staff that those are will take the advice of my dear colleagues and reserve the most recent numbers that were provided by VIHA. my right to speak when we return to the House. They are more up to date than the ones that are posted on the February website. Those numbers have not been Hon. J. Yap moved adjournment of debate. brought up to date. My understanding is that they bring those up to date subsequent to board approval. So it Motion approved. goes to the board, the board is given the latest update on where things are at, and then it gets posted on the Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported website. progress, was granted leave to sit again. A. Dix: Just to finish off our round on MRI wait times. Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of the House. I had asked the minister for the wait times in Prince George yesterday, but it was a long list, and he didn't get Motion approved. to it. I wonder if he'd just give us Prince George.

Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 Hon. K. Falcon: The wait for non-urgent elective a.m. tomorrow morning. MRIs at University Hospital of Northern B.C. is 5.5 months, I'm advised. The House adjourned at 6:53 p.m. A. Dix: I'm going to move on to another topic that we briefly canvassed in question period last week. That's the PROCEEDINGS IN THE issue of the Compass contract on Vancouver Island and DOUGLAS FIR ROOM on recent outbreaks of C. difficile. The minister asserted in question period, I'd say with Committee of Supply some theatrical flair, that the problems in Nanaimo Hospital in general had nothing to do with cleaning, ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH SERVICES which seems to be an extraordinary conclusion. But (continued) there it is; that's what he said. He said it adamantly, and he said it with respect to C. difficile in particular. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); N. We know that is not the case, and we know it from documents released by the Ministry of Health to the Letnick in the chair. Nanaimo paper. Officials of the Ministry of Health — and I'm quoting them, hon. Speaker — said with respect The committee met at 2:33 p.m. to the C. difficile outbreak in 2008 that housekeeping is the biggest problem. On Vote 37: ministry operations, $14,612,943,000 It, of course, identified other problems, as there always (continued). are in these issues. The hospitals are overcrowded, and there are issues that the minister mentioned, including A. Dix: Yesterday I asked the minister…. I asked him people's responsiveness to antibiotics. several times, but on the final occasion he offered an an- But the minister asserted and asserted unequivocally, swer with respect to the wait times for MRIs in Nanaimo as I said, that it had nothing to do with housekeep- and Victoria. He was referring to February data from ing when in fact…. Let me quote the minister because what he described as the website, and he said that wait sometimes the minister complains that we don't quote times were 179.7 days at Royal Jubilee and Victoria him accurately. So referring to C. difficile, the minister General Hospital and 181.7 days at Nanaimo Regional started listing off journals — the New England Journal Hospital. of Medicine, the Archives of Internal Medicine. He didn't Now, on the website the most recent information refer, of course, to anything specific in here; it was ques- available comes from the month of February, as the tion period. Then he says: "For the member to…suggest minister suggests. But it says: "Currently wait times for this is about housekeeping is just dead wrong." non-emergency MRIs are approximately 11 months Presumably, he has reviewed those FOIs, because this in Greater Victoria and approximately 14 months in was a pretty serious issue in health. His own staff say that it Nanaimo." That's what the health authority says, which is about housecleaning. In fact, it's more about houseclean- obviously are very different numbers. SoI just wanted to ing than all those other things. How does he reconcile his know whether the minister has misspoken or whether unique position of saying that it's not about housecleaning he has other numbers. with all of the mountain of evidence that says it was? [1435] [1440] Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5815

Hon. K. Falcon: The member is trying to mix up two The fact of the matter is this. Housekeeping is house- different events. There are theFOI s the member refers to. keeping. Whether it's being delivered by contracted-out He's referring to an outbreak of C. difficile at Nanaimo service or being delivered in-house, the only concern the General from two years ago. The member can check my government has — and that the health authority should comments on record when I did a scrum. I acknow- rightly have — is that the standards are meeting the ledged at the time that the performance of VIHA in the benchmarks we set. If the standards are not meeting the C. difficile outbreak from two years ago was less than ac- benchmarks, then we will implement whatever changes ceptable. My recollection is that I apologized on behalf are necessary to ensure that they meet the benchmarks. of government, said that we would do everything we That is the discussion we've had. I know the critic is try- could to do better, and that's exactly what took place. ing to confuse the two issues and talk about a story that took A series of changes were implemented in consulta- place two years ago and trying to mix up the two cases and tion and cooperation between not only the internal suggest that I've declared something that is not the case. reviews that were undertaken at Nanaimo General but Is housekeeping important? Of course it is. also through the work that was done by B.C. Centre for Handwashing is extremely important. Handwashing Disease Control, which came in and made a series of amongst health professionals is extremely important. C. recommendations. The member is correct to point out difficile, in the most recent outbreaks…. As we know, a that it wasn't just housekeeping issues, though that was number of those cases came from the community and part of the challenge two years ago. were brought to the hospital. In a crowded emergency It was a range of issues that include overcrowding, which department, naturally, that is something that is highly is one of the reasons why, of course, we're now investing and readily able to infect others. That's what happens. $40 million — I believe is the number; I'll double-check it — to triple the emergency department at Nanaimo General. A. Dix: Isn't that norovirus? It's exactly why those investments are being made. Now, the most recent case that the member is talk- Hon. K. Falcon: And norovirus. There were both. ing about is where in question period the critic tried There was norovirus andC. difficile. to assert that the recent issue of C. difficile outbreak at Nanaimo General was a direct result of contracting out. Interjection. That's what the member opposite said; that's what the Health critic said. The Chair: Order, please. Order, please. The Health critic is making a rather astounding as- sumption here. He, without any knowledge of the facts, Hon. K. Falcon: Yes, I am saying that a handful of the is just making an assumption that it is not just house- C. difficile cases also came from the community, and the keeping. It is because of contracted housekeeping. That same with the norovirus. is the position of the members opposite. I pointed out [1445] quite rightly that the member is just simply dead wrong. It's important to know that, because if you look at the In fact, the independent audits that are undertaken cases of norovirus or C. difficile, especially in the case of on cleanliness in our health care system — which, by norovirus these are challenges that are faced wherever the way, were not undertaken by the NDP at all…. They people gather — in the community, on cruise ships, in had no way of actually gauging cleanliness levels under hospitals. That can be a challenge. the NDP administration, of which that member was the Nanaimo General was dealing with both of those cases, chief of staff, because they didn't do any audits. both norovirus and C. difficile. I am advised and was The audits that came out last year by Westech, done advised that a number of those cases of C. difficile were independently, actually pointed out — and I made this brought from the community into the hospital — not all of clear to the member — that of the 16 facilities that failed them; some of them — and that created real challenges. to meet the high standards set, the 85 percent benchmark Managing C. difficile is a challenge in every hospital. that was set, nine were actually in-house cleaners and I'm sure the member would know this, and that's why I housekeeping — apparently the very method that the quoted from those journals for the member — to recog- member opposite and the NDP believe all the facilities nize that this is not an issue that is unique to British should be at. Only seven of them were contracted-out Columbia. This is an issue that is dealt with and is a chal- service providers. lenge around the world. In every single health care and I guess if I am to follow the rationale of the mem- hospital facility the challenge of dealing with C. difficile ber — I assume he would at least base it on evidence is a big problem, and it is getting more difficult because — then it should be that we should contract all of the of the increased use of antibiotics. We are now seeing housekeeping because of the results that we found in the strains of C. difficile that are more resistant to drugs and independent audits. But of course, that would be not ap- antibiotics, and that is making it even more challenging propriate either. for hospital settings. 5816 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

The issue of cleaning is one part of the puzzle. There There are a number of steps that they will take when is just no question about that. But for the member to there is an increase or an outbreak of C. difficile. It's en- suggest, as he did, that the whole issue was about con- tirely appropriate that they do so. Enhanced cleaning tracted-out cleaning was just, frankly, wrong. and possibly even bringing in enhanced support to deal with that outbreak is exactly the right approach. In fact, A. Dix: The minister said what he said, and he wants it mirrors what's happening over at Fraser Health. to clarify the record. That's fine. I'd say two things about Fraser Health monitors C. difficile outbreaks in the 2008 outbreak. All of those facts and all of those exactly the same way. If there is an outbreak, they send FOIs — I'm glad to hear that the minister has read them, a special team that goes into that facility and immedi- because we'll be asking him questions about them — I ately implements a whole range of advanced cleaning think give two strong messages: (1) housekeeping was and precautionary measures that are put into place to completely inadequate, and (2) the audit process set up control and damp down and clamp down on the out- by the government was completely inadequate, accord- break itself. ing to officials of the Vancouver Island Health Authority. I have a specific question, since the minister — or A. Dix: I just want to ask this, because this was after the government; he wasn't minister yet — after 2008 a crisis at the hospital had taken place. This was the C. automatically renewed the Compass contract. I have a difficile outbreak that started — and this part of the in- question for the minister with respect to an outbreak that formation is from the paper — on November 17. The occurred in December 2009. Did the health authority's outbreak was declared on November 17 — right? infection prevention officer order the health authority TheC ompass Group, whose contract had been signed to bring in non-contracted staff in December and this — whose contract includes, as I understand it, the respon- spring to help address these cleaning problems? sibilities for just these very contingencies; the contract that had been renewed in 2009 by the government auto- Hon. K. Falcon: I don't know for certain if that was matically without bid — informed the health authority. the case, as the member declared, but it wouldn't sur- They informed the health authority in December 2009 prise me if additional cleaning staff was brought in.O ne that they couldn't do the kind of cleaning that Dr. Wale, of the recommendations coming out of the events that the VIHA medical director for infection prevention and took place two years ago, which I readily acknowledged control, had instructed. at the time were less than acceptable, and I think that They could not do the task of the top-to-bottom deep VIHA did too…. cleaning, not because their workers aren't excellent — [1450] their workers are excellent; they work very hard — but They brought in a number of changes to address this because there weren't enough resources. They didn't issue so that in the future, if they have an outbreak of C. have enough resources under the contract to do what difficile…. Remember, C. difficile is present in the hospi- was required in this circumstance to save lives. tal virtually at all times. At any one time there are usually My question to the minister is very simple: has this a half-dozen or five cases ofC. difficile. happened? Did Compass say, "No más, we can't do this" The issue is that if they have an outbreak where they in December? Were people coming in — regular em- see more than that particular number, they automatically ployees from Campbell River and Port Alberni? Were initiate their hospital incident command infrastructure. they brought in, where they haven't contracted out, to That is a structure that was put in place as a result of the help do this work? Did this occur again in March? events two years ago. These are the kinds of incidents that, since the minister What happens when they initiate the hospital inci- became minister, he says have nothing to do with house- dent command is that there's increased surveillance in keeping. My question is very simple. These were major monitoring. There's increased cleaning and changed actions. Surely the minister was informed. Did this hap- cleaning solutions. There are contract precautions for pen? Why did it happen? Why was Compass not able to care providers, placing patients in private and semi- do the work that we paid them millions of dollars to do? private rooms, cleaning of common areas, etc. They go through a whole range of issues. Hon. K. Falcon: I know the member fixates because One of the things that is key is attention to detail in all he receives enormous political support from Hospital aspects, including hand hygiene, which is so important, Employees Union, and because of that he fixates on this too, for the transfer, particularly amongst the health care whole issue of contracting out. professionals. You would think that would be a matter [1455] of course, but I think this is something that increasingly That's really the issue here. The member won't admit it, we're discovering across Canada is not necessarily done as but that's exactly what it is. In the Health critic's world…. a matter of course. It's something that really has to be em- phasized and monitored across all the health authorities. A. Dix: People die. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5817

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, the member says that people tripling, in fact, of the emergency department space — die, and here and now, he has reached the height of ir- is, in part, to deal with some of these things. responsibility, because now the member is suggesting When we were elected in 2001 after a decade of a gov- that the only reason people who, sadly, unfortunately, ernment of which that member was the chief of staff, did die, Member…. sadly, there was very little capital investment that took Sadly, people die around the world all the time as a re- place in emergency departments and, indeed, in health sult of C. difficile infections, and for that Health critic to facilities around the province. Most of them that we in- try and suggest that the only reason that's happening is herited are health facilities that are over 40 years old. because there happened to be contracted-out health ser- I digress, though. There was one that they did build, vices is a terrible, terrible slur on those individuals that but it sat empty for ten years until the Jimmy Pattison work extremely hard… Pavilion was finally operated by ourselves. We got people in there and are now operating the facility. It sat empty, Interjection. and the only expense that was paid on it was the heating bills they paid and the security to keep homeless people The Chair: Order, please. from trying to live in this heated building that the NDP kept going for ten years, which was an extraordinary Hon. K. Falcon: …in that hospital to try to deliver waste of money. But I digress. top-quality services. I think it's actually repulsive… The issue here is that the member is confusing two issues. In 2008 they did not do a good job at Nanaimo Interjection. General. I've said that on the record. I said that shortly after I became Health Minister, and as my memory re- The Chair: Order, please. collects, I believe I apologized on behalf of the fact that I don't believe that VIHA did a good job. I think that that Hon. K. Falcon: …that the member would actually was supported by the recommendations that came out suggest that. from the B.C. Centre for Disease Control. A little bit of an education for the member because, Look, at the end of the day, the people that work in apparently, he cannot get out of his HEU blinder which these facilities are human beings. They do their very compels him to argue, against whatever the facts are, that best, but they are not perfect. The system can always the only kind of cleanliness, apparently, in the NDP world try and improve, and the system should always try and is Hospital Employees Union cleanliness. Apparently, improve. they're the only ones who can keep things clean. The recommendations that came out as a result of Now, that's in spite of the fact that the independent the '08 situation have now got a situation where…. As audits demonstrated very clearly that the majority of I mentioned, they've now got an infrastructure in place the facilities that failed to meet the bar were actually in- that will see a hospital incident command initiated house cleaning facilities, exactly the kind of people in when they have an outbreak that goes beyond the nor- the union that that member is entirely bound to. mal levels of C. difficile that they are commonly seeing in Member, you're just completely wrong when you say hospitals, and a whole bunch of issues and criteria will that, and the facts don't support you when you say that. kick in to deal with those outbreaks. That strikes me as entirely the right approach: that Interjection. you learn from whatever mistakes may be made, recog- nizing that we don't profess or pretend at any time that Hon. K. Falcon: You can keep saying it, but — Chair we have a perfect system. It should always be continuous through to the member — the critic is just simply wrong. improvement. What facts should the critic be aware of? Well, the It is one of the reasons why we set up the Patient critic should be aware that infection control is important Safety and Quality office headed by Dr. DougC ochrane, for all health services and providers. A comprehensive a noted neurosurgeon. Dr. Cochrane looks across all infection control strategy has to involve appropriate the health authorities to share best practices and ensure surveillance, cleaning, disinfection, sterilization, hand that what is working in one health authority is shared hygiene, contact precautions, personal protective equip- across all health authorities. That, I think, is entirely as ment guidelines and incident investigation. All of those it should be. issues are important to dealing with outbreaks when [1500] they take place. The other thing I might add, and one of the reasons The Chair: At this point I just want to remind both why we have invested $460 million in over 30 emergency member and minister to talk through the Chair. Also, departments across the province — including Nanaimo this room is smaller than the big House, so if we can General, which is getting a $46 million expansion, a tone down the passion a little bit, it'd probably be more 5818 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

beneficial for everyone here, and to continue to keep of this approach. I should point out to the member that that respect — all right? Thank you. Fraser Health, by the way, has contracted out services on Go ahead. their cleaning. There is a very good example of some very good results A. Dix: The point to the minister is that these are being done with contracted-out cleaners. The member serious issues. By the way, the Compass workers are is right to point out that often they are still HEU work- represented by the HEU as well. To suggest that this is ers. I acknowledge that. But the member knows what about union matters is just ridiculous. Any Health critic the HEU agenda is in terms of…. They believe that there under these circumstances would ask questions on C. shouldn't be any private involvement in cleaning in the difficile — anyone who took these situations seriously. hospitals, and the NDP reflexively supports them in that It involves a whole bunch of issues, as the minister well without fail. There's no question about that. knows, most important of which is that these issues We agree to disagree on that, but I think that the ap- of infection control can mean life and death. That's proach the VIHA took…. It's not a question of ordering; exactly what I mean, and exactly why we're asking these it's a question of saying, "We have an outbreak. Let's questions. bring some resources here and deal with the outbreak," I asked the minister a specific question twice. He's just like they do in Fraser Health with their health in- gone off on these long tangents. The specific question fection control team. They bring them in, and they deal as to whether the health authority was forced to order with the outbreak. By doing that, they've managed to the Nanaimo hospital, because Compass…. This was a bring down the C. difficile rates. contract that was renewed under the government. They Where that is working and effective,I would hope and weren't able to supply adequate resources not because expect that other health authorities would follow those the staff wasn't good, but because they couldn't get kinds of successes. enough staff to do the necessary cleaning of the hospital, the top-to-bottom deep cleaning of the hospital, within A. Dix: My question is really very simple. Did a two-week time frame that Dr. Wale had called for. Compass in December 2009 tell the health authority, I'm asking, for the third time, a specific question to contrary to the requirements of their contract, that they the minister, to which he knows the answer. It is beyond would be unable to do a top-to-bottom deep cleaning of the scope of this to be able to go off on any tangent that the health authority? That's a simple question, that's the you feel like. He knows the answer to this question, so question I asked, and the minister presumably has an I'm asking him specifically: did that happen? What were answer for it. the circumstances under which that happened? Why was it at that time that Compass — just after the Hon. K. Falcon: I don't have an answer. government had renewed the contract with them and a year after the events to which the minister is referring, to A. Dix: Were staff brought in during the current out- which he says he apologized — was unable to do a basic break, the C. difficile outbreak, in April under the same job ordered by the health authority? circumstances? [1505] Hon. K. Falcon: As I mentioned to the member in my last answer, the fact of the matter is that what they Hon. K. Falcon: The answer is yes, and that's entirely do — I think, quite appropriately — when they have an appropriate. I want to commend VIHA for doing that outbreak, as they did in '09…. They brought in addi- — bringing in additional resources when they've got an tional resources from Ladysmith and Chemainus to do outbreak, to manage that as aggressively as they can. I a full-out assault on all the issues associated with trying just want to state for the record that I want to commend to manage a C. difficile outbreak. them for that. It's actually very similar to what happens in other health authorities. I mentioned Fraser Health, for ex- A. Dix: It wasn't Compass that brought them in. It ample. In Fraser Health what they do when they have was VIHA bringing in — shall we say, for want of a bet- C. difficile outbreaks that are above the normal rates ter term — facility bargaining association members that one would expect to see in hospital facilities, Fraser from other hospitals on Vancouver Island. Health's infection control teams…. They've put together special teams that will undertake additional actions to Hon. K. Falcon: It's a VIHA decision to bring in addi- move into that facility and deal with the issue and the tional staffing resources. That's what they did to deal outbreak. with the outbreak, and I commend them for it. In the last two years Fraser Health's overall C. difficile rate has decreased by approximately 35 percent, and in A. Dix: The minister referred in 2008…. This is a dis- the case of Burnaby Hospital, by 60 percent, as a result cussion of the audits. The minister should know that I Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5819

think that one of the lessons of this is that we need to I know that the member has done enough homework improve that process dramatically. Essentially, what we to know that the challenges of outbreaks in hospitals have is a site-tested audit. — whether it's norovirus or C. difficile or MRSA — are In 2008 when housekeeping was failing, according to not unique to Nanaimo General. They're certainly not the evidence provided by VIHA itself…. It was failing to unique to British Columbia. They are, indeed, not even do the work needed and was a principal contributor to unique in Canada. the C. difficile outbreak in 2008. Throughout that period, [1510] according to the audits, the Nanaimo Regional scored These are issues that are being dealt with around the above 90 percent. Doesn't that suggest to the minister that world. It is not just a case, as the member would say, of the current process of auditing isn't the appropriate one? not having contracted-out cleaning services. Any reason- Maybe if he doesn't want to listen to me and he thinks able person looking at the evidence would deduce that. I'm too partisan or something, how about Dr. David One of the reasons why, when we make substantial Forrest, who recommended the same — that biolumin- new investments, as we are doing at Royal Jubilee, for escence techniques be employed? He promoted this as example…. I'll use that as an example. The new $350 a kind of measurement to housekeeping, to no avail, in million tower that is being built here, just in the greater 2005 when the contract to Westech was awarded. Victoria area, that has got individualized rooms for Or how about the repeated statements in these FOIs virtually 90 percent of the patients that will be in that that "the wholehearted process needs to be revamped to hospital…. One of the reasons why that is the case is for include more objective measurements of performance" infection control. — again recommending bioluminescence? Again, you take an aging facility that has multiple I'm suggesting to the minister…. This is not to criti- ward beds, and that is a challenge when controlling cize what's happened but to say that this is the evidence issues around infection. When you have private rooms from the people in VIHA who went through this experi- like the new hospital facility will have, that makes a big ence going forward. Isn't there an argument to go away difference in your ability to control. from this visual testing system? While housekeeping But they've done more than that. They've also got spe- was failing and cleaning was failing in 2008, so much so cial hand-cleaning stations interspersed around each that the minister apologized for it when he became min- floor so that health professionals are easily reminded. ister…. If that was the case, how was that consistent with They're a very bright colour in a little sort of area, if you having a 90 percent success record at Nanaimo Regional can imagine sort of a fountain drinking area, with a very General Hospital? bright colour in the background to remind health care Doesn't that argue for all of us to say that we need to professionals of the importance of washing hands. That improve that process and change the processes that we seems like such a simplistic thing, but it is hugely import- use to assess the quality of cleaning? ant for the control of the transfer and spread of infections like C. difficile, MRSA and, of course, norovirus. Hon. K. Falcon: I think that it's important to, first of So this is an area that we have to have a constant all, recognize that B.C. was actually the first province in improvement underway within the health authorities. I Canada to implement provincewide quality and cleanliness have no hesitation in acknowledging where we fall short, standards to all of the hospitals and all health authority– because at times we will. I wish I could say to the Health managed residential care sites. Now, it is entirely fine for critic that there will be a day where there will never be an the member to suggest how that can be improved, and outbreak of C. difficile, even a major one. Unfortunately, bioluminescence may be one way to try to improve that. even one where some individuals who are usually im- But Member, in fairness, for ten years you were also mune-compromised already, may even pass away. There in government, and you were chief of staff of that gov- is no hospital that I am aware of in the free world that ernment. You had every opportunity, if this was such a has no cases of C. difficile or MRSA or other outbreaks, burning issue of great importance, to implement those on occasion. exact kinds of things, but you never did. That's fine. So the issue is: how is it being dealt with? In 2008, We're proud of the fact that we were the first. quite correctly I believe, Nanaimo General was taken Can we improve on audits? Possibly. I'm always open to task in terms of how they handled it. It turned out to suggestions on how things can be done better. The that…. There was a whole range of issues, and I won't fact of the matter is that these third-party audits are un- belabour them, because the member would have read scheduled. They're unannounced, they just show up, and the reports, but the reports pointed out how improve- they do inspections and look at the cleaning standards ments needed to be made. in these facilities. I think that that is a level of rigour that Those improvements were made. Teams were put in you don't see anywhere else in the country. I'm always place to deal with these kinds of things, to make sure open to the idea of how it can be improved, and we'll that a whole range of new procedures were brought into look at whatever suggestions may be put forward. place, including surveillance and detection, which is im- 5820 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

portant for identifying early on when the challenge is with six-months' notice, to go out to the marketplace, to starting to happen so that you can come in with extra test the marketplace, to see whether they can get addi- resources, if need be, from other facilities and deal with tional services and perhaps even better value. That's a that, and deal with it aggressively. right they have exercised. They have every right to do I will say this. I expect the health authorities, and cer- that, and good for them for managing their operation tainly under the oversight of the patient care and safety appropriately. office headed by Dr. Doug Cochrane, to continually try But the member is far too pessimistic and nega- to improve on everything they do, including infection tive, unfortunately, I think, around this issue. Actually, control. It is a challenge not just at Nanaimo General but if he travels outside of British Columbia and goes and at facilities around the world. asks about infection control and management around the other provinces, what he will find is that British A. Dix: Of course, we know that Westech apparently Columbia is seen as a leader in this regard. believes that there's no connection — or the president of In fact, in dealing with major outbreaks like when Westech apparently believes that there's no connection we had the SARS incident, B.C. was recognized for its between hospital cleanliness and infection control. We leadership in dealing with SARS. H1N1 was another ex- know that the audits came in because severe cuts were ample, I think, where B.C. really came to the forefront in made not just in contracted-out areas but in all areas of terms of our ability to manage these kinds of things. cleaning in that period. So why is B.C. different? Well, actually to the mem- I think that what the evidence shows, and the evidence ber's point, the member may not be aware, but there is a the FOI shows, is that the audit process is a failure. I mean, Provincial Infection Control Network. what larger failure can you have than one of the best pos- In addition to the patient safety and quality office sible grades you can get being given at a time when the headed by Dr. Doug Cochrane, who I talked about ear- minister has to apologize to the people of B.C. for the lier — a noted neurosurgeon and certainly well-regarded failures of housekeeping under the Compass contract? in the medical fraternity and someone that has just been So what this shows, what the Nanaimo situation very diligent in looking into a range of issues to ensure shows, is that the audit process, which should be a pro- that best practices are being shared — we do also have tection and a source of confidence, isn't. The minister the Provincial Infection Control Network. That was es- is quite right to say that you're not going to get rid of tablished in British Columbia in 2005 to maximize the all hospital infection, in fact, because there are issues coordination and integration of health care–associated around the world and because our hospitals in B.C. are infection prevention, surveillance and control activities increasingly crowded. With hallway medicine becoming for the entire province. the standard, there are going to be issues of infection I believe that it's one of the reasons why British control. Columbia continues to be viewed as a real leader in this The minister knows this. This is a reality, and we have to regard. It's got a central office and a community of prac- do all of it. We have to improve housekeeping. We have to tice comprised of experts involved in the prevention, initiate programs around handwashing. We have to ad- surveillance and control of health care–associated in- dress issues in the hospital to ensure overcrowding is fections across the continuum of care. They develop the addressed. We have to deal with the reality of the failure of new and the latest best practices, so they're constantly antibiotics to deliver as much as they used to. We need a monitoring around the world to determine what are the whole team of people in every hospital. That's the argument emerging best practices and making sure that those best — and I know that the minister doesn't want to hear it — for practices are shared amongst our health care system. having everybody in the hospital on the same team. As I say, I think that the network has really done [1515] some very exceptional work. Examples are influenza, In any event, I'd like to ask the minister whether he…. H1N1, SARS. They've done a lot of very good work on Now, in 2010, a year after the Compass contract was antibiotic-resistant organisms prevention and control automatically reviewed, and six months after — as I management of health care workers in a number of areas. understand it, and the minister doesn't know about it — they There is important work going on, on exactly that point. were unable to fulfil the terms of their contract during Having said that, I do have to also be honest with the an outbreak, the government has decided to, in fact, not public that even with all of those experts in place and all continue with the contract with Compass. I'd like to ask of those experts providing advice on best evidence and the minister if he would explain why that's the case. sharing that best evidence, at the end of the day, we still have a system that is being operated by human beings, Hon. K. Falcon: The member is wrong in his char- and human beings are not always perfect. They some- acterization. Actually, they had an option to extend the times can make mistakes. I'm sure that the critic would contract for a further five years. To VIHA's credit, they acknowledge that he's probably occasionally made mis- built into that contract a provision that allows them, takes. I certainly don't have any…. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5821

Interjection. That's called the marketplace, and that's called a con- tractual provision, and it was exercised. I don't know Hon. K. Falcon: Exactly, and I'm the same way. I why the member is apparently bothered by that. I have make mistakes too, and I try to acknowledge when I no concern with that at all. In fact, I commend VIHA for make a mistake. signing contracts that give them that provision. I also try to acknowledge on behalf of the health care They took the opportunity to extend the contract in- system when I think we can do better, and the 2008 out- itially. They had a five-year provision that allowed them break in Nanaimo General, based on the information to extend it for a further five years. They did that.I t also that I received shortly after becoming minister, certainly had a contract provision that allowed them after six suggested to me that we could have done a lot better. I months — as I understand — to exercise an option to go had no problem acknowledging that. out and test the marketplace. They're doing that. Good But as I say to the member with the greatest of respect, for them. I think his overly pessimistic viewpoint and his narrow It may be that they'll test the marketplace and decide interpretation that this is all entirely an issue around that they can't achieve better value than what they're contracted cleaning is certainly not an opinion that is getting, or it may be that maybe they can find a different going to be shared by most experts in the field that service provider that can provide them better services recognize that infection control is a much broader effort at better value. I have no idea. That's why they're testing and, frankly, a much more complex effort to deal with. the marketplace, presumably, and that's exactly what I Cleaning is an important part of that — there is no said in my first answer. question — but there are a whole bunch of other areas that I am pleased to say the Provincial Infection Control A. Dix: Why did they exercise that option? Network is looking at, as is the patient safety and qual- ity office. Hon. K. Falcon: I assume because it was a prudent thing to do to go out and test the marketplace and deter- A. Dix: You see, sometimes I don't think there's what mine what they can achieve in the marketplace. I don't is called a conversation going on. I just finished an inter- have any problem with that at all. vention when I talked about the various elements, and there are more than the elements that I listed going into A. Dix: So the minister is saying that it has nothing to these issues, and the minister says in response: "Well do with the failures of 2008, the failures of 2009? It has you're just talking about contracting out." nothing to do with those things; they're just deciding to [1520] test the marketplace? That's fascinating.I guess what the What is more disconcerting…. I don't mind the min- minister is also saying is that it's a possibility, contrary to ister deliberately mischaracterizing my views. I've come what VIHA seems to have suggested, that Compass will to expect it. On that performance measure, he's doing retain the contract. very well. I want to move on to another area of questioning, be- But the performance measure that is less gratifying cause the minister doesn't seem to want to provide an to people is when you ask a direct question as to why answer on that question. We'll ask him another set of the Compass contract is being terminated and what the questions. reason is for that. That was the question thatI just asked. So in Fraser Health, and I'm referring the Minister TheC hair is listening carefully, so he heard the question to an April 22, 2010 document…. Again, he was asked I just asked. about this in question period, but he chose not to an- That was a direct question, and while the minister's swer. He had other things he wanted to say at that time, reverie is very interesting, that's the question I asked, so we'll spend some time on it here. and I guess that's the question I'll have to repeat for a Can the minister explain why it's the case that the second time, which is kind of standard practice in these sterilization department, which is a key part, I think, of estimates. any safe process in hospital, in Fraser Health is being reduced, why — given the central importance of ster- Hon. K. Falcon: Well actually, Member, what you need ilization that we've seen in our very discussions in the to do is listen, because I gave the answer. Apparently, the last day on the situation in Kamloops, where the issues member is not listening, and I'm sorry about that, Chair, are, as well, very serious with respect to sterilization — because the answer I stated very clearly was that this was the minister chose to cut, as part of a cut by 14 percent a contract that had a provision that allowed VIHA to in the elective surgery budget there, the sterilization? exercise a provision in the contract that allows them to Because it seems to me, in that case, that sterilization is go out and test the marketplace and determine whether one of the three critical components, really. they can get services perhaps at a better price, perhaps I mean, if you're going to schedule surgery, you need better resources — whatever the case may be. the staff who are going to do the surgery, you need the 5822 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

operating room time and you need sterile and safe entirely appropriate that Fraser Health try and manage equipment. I'm just curious, because the minister didn't their resources as effectively as they can, recognizing respond to it in question period, whether he would just that they meet the highest standards possible in their enlighten us as to why he did this, and then we'll happily sterilization department. move on to questions about surgeries. [1525] A. Dix: Yesterday we deferred a discussion on surger- ies and the number of elective surgeries that are being Hon. K. Falcon: First of all, I think it's important proposed by the health authority. to recognize that Fraser Health is recognized by the I wanted to ask the minister…. Why don't we International Organization for Standardization, which start…? We were just there on Vancouver Island. It was is commonly known as ISO 9000, for meeting their very a short tour of the province. Elective surgeries, accord- high-quality management system standards in the ster- ing to Mr. Waldner, were reduced by 750 last year on ile processing departments. So they meet the highest Vancouver Island as a result of the budget crunch facing international standard that is available and is inter- the Vancouver Island Health Authority at that time. I'm nationally recognized as the highest standard that you wondering what the intention is with respect to elective can possibly achieve. I want to commend Fraser Health surgeries on Vancouver Island this year. for doing that. So what has Fraser Health done? They have made Hon. K. Falcon: So the data for the '09-10 surgical significant investments — new capital equipment in data — we don't have that available for the member yet. the sterile processing department, sterilization depart- It would be incomplete at this point. ment. They've implemented best practice standards, and I understand from staff that what happens is hospi- they've increased staff education. tal data is coded upon patient discharge and then sent But they are making some staff changes which af- to CIHI, the Canadian Institute for Health Information. fect about seven positions, and to put that into context, The coding and collection process creates a bit of a time there are 230 individuals that are working in the health lag there, so it takes a while for us to get the final data for authority in this area. The positions include a staffing the fiscal year. The close-off for data submission CIHIto clerk at Royal Columbian, a transport aide at Burnaby is July 31, following the fiscal year-end, and final data is Hospital, existing vacancies at Ridge Meadows and generally available to the ministry by early September. Peace Arch, and they are reclassifying two full-time pos- I do have data for the member, though, that we collect itions as part-time. throughout the year for management purposes. We've Now to the members opposite, I know that any got the data on a calendar year basis, which I can share change in the health care system apparently is the end with the member, but that's all I've got. It says here that of the world as we know it. But one of the things that they consider this data to be quite complete and reliable we are asking the health care system to do is to man- through period 10. I understand that there are 13 per- age the cost pressures because we know that even with iods. Period 10 roughly corresponds with December; so the 15 percent increase that we're providing in budget this is essentially data for the calendar year. over the next three years — an additional $2 billion — If that's okay, does the member want me to go through there are still pressures on costs. So they're looking right some of this now? across their system to make sure they're delivering ser- vices and managing them in the most effective possible Interjection. way. That's exactly what's happening there. I think it's also important to recognize that in Surrey Hon. K. Falcon: Table it. I can do that, sure. we've got a bit of a unique situation in that we have the new $240 million out-patient hospital that's currently A. Dix: Just in terms of the elective base, then, this under construction — ahead of schedule, I'm pleased year and what the intention is this year, I guess, with- to say. Thankfully, when that opens there will be ap- out those baselines, if you could. I'd appreciate if you'd proximately 12 FTEs, which is a government term for table that. full-time positions. So 12 FTEs will be required in the [1530] sterile processing department to support the expanded Some of the key areas, the key periods, in some of surgical services that are going to be operating as a re- the health authorities…. We'll get to this when we get sult of the 450,000 additional procedures that will take to Fraser Health and Vancouver Coastal Health, where place at that out-patient hospital, relieving greatly some there were significant reductions in the number of sur- pressure on Surrey Memorial. geries in February and March. It was called the Olympic So is that a change? Yes, a very minor one — mostly slowdown. The minister is familiar with it or will re- dealing with positions that aren't being filled, a staffing member when we had a bit of a discussion on that last clerk and a transport aide. But nevertheless, I think it's November. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5823

In VIHA is it the intention to do, with respect to elect- livering those services, they will attract a goodly portion ive surgeries, the same number of elective surgeries as of those dollars, and that will certainly affect how many last year, roughly — so a zero lift? Is that zero lift from surgical procedures they do. the budgeted amount last year or for the budget minus 750? A. Dix: The numbers the minister just gave me — four, five, minus one, minus two — are those calendar year to [J. McIntyre in the chair.] calendar year or fiscal year to fiscal year?

Hon. K. Falcon: A couple of things. First of all, for Hon. K. Falcon: Calendar year. the calendar year, just to note and read into the record, for the different health authorities in terms of the per- A. Dix: They're calendar year. So they don't include centage change in total surgical cases: IHA increased the February slowdown, which was several thousand by 5 percent; Fraser Health by 5 percent; Vancouver surgeries, which would have affected, obviously, all those Coastal up 4 percent; VIHA was down 1 percent; NHA, numbers. It probably put most of Vancouver Coastal and Northern Health, was down 2 percent; and PHSA was Fraser Health, certainly, into the negative in that time. the same. Overall across B.C. the total surgical cases in- [1535] creased by 3 percent. I guess I'm asking about the current budget, because One thing that is a little challenging about predicting as I understand the minister's proposal for patient-fo- going forward now is that we are moving away, as the cused funding, which I think we'll talk about later, it's member would know, from the pure block funding not what you'd call fully in place. He's doing a slow ramp model to a model that is increasingly going to be mov- on it. So the core funding isn't effective to the next two ing towards a patient-focused funding model. So there years, and he's providing extra funding, as the previous will be an additional $80 million this year available for minister did and he did through the innovation fund, patient-focused funding, and the following year it's $170 over the next couple of years. million. I'm asking about the plans for this year. For example, Those dollars will go to those health authorities and in Vancouver Island is it the intention of the health au- facilities which do the best job of attracting and success- thorities, and in Fraser Health — I guess we want to add fully getting that money, and that won't just be handed that — to have a zero increase in elective surgeries this to them. So the way we do it today is we hand the block year, given the cut that occurred in both of those health fund to the health authorities, and we say: "Manage authorities in the number of elective surgeries in the within this block fund." In my view, it creates perverse fiscal year ending March 31? I understand the minister incentives or even disincentives to actually treat patients, seems not to have the data for that, but I want to get because every patient becomes an expense and there- some understanding of what the base is. fore something that you try to avoid. Under patient-focused funding, we will reward those Hon. K. Falcon: What we are doing in British health authorities and hospitals that do a good job of Columbia is we want to manage the wait times, because dealing with patients. When the patients get an elect- what we want to do is make sure that people are not ive surgical procedure undertaken with the high-quality waiting an inordinate amount of time to receive their standards built in upfront, then they receive additional elective surgical procedures. revenues as a result of doing that, and they will be incen- As the member would be well aware, the first min- tivized appropriately, I think, to actually deliver those isters of every province and the federal government services in as productive a way as possible. If they're not established targets for a number of surgical procedures, successful in doing that, they will lose that business to which included hips, knees, cardiac and cataract sur- other facilities either in their health authority or in an- gical procedures, where there would be a benchmark other health authority that may be better at delivering that said the goal is to have 90 percent of the people re- those kinds of services. ceive those treatments within a 26-week period. It's the kind of thing that we believe is going to, very That was the standard that was set across the coun- importantly, not just drive some surgical volume but try, and as the member would well know now, the deal with the issue of elective surgical wait-lists in par- Canadian Institute for Health Information, or CIHI, ticular. So those are additional dollars, but I wouldn't which we've referred to many times, reported out that be able to tell the member where those dollars will end British Columbia was number one in the country for up, because it will depend on how good a job the differ- meeting those wait times. Ontario was right up there ent health authorities are doing in competing for those with us. Interestingly, Alberta was down at about num- dollars. ber seven or eight, if my memory serves me correctly, Certainly, it's going to have some positive effect. and yet Alberta spends 25 percent more per capita on Hopefully, if VIHA is astute and does a good job in de- health care than we do in British Columbia. 5824 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

I think it's an important comparison, in my mind at about cuts to surgical procedures. I think the member least, because it's proof positive that results aren't in any has lost a little bit of the context. We've had a disagree- way tied to how much you spend, which is a common ment over this issue before, but whether the member misconception. In fact, it's something I, unfortunately, wants to recognize it or not, when you are hosting an hear across the way all the time from the members op- international event on the scale of the Olympics, as posite — that we need to spend more money, as if there we did in February, it has been the experience of every is a correlation between more money being spent and other jurisdiction that's held those kinds of events that health outcomes. they have a drop-off in surgical procedures. In fact, Alberta has a younger population than British Why? Not surprisingly, and you saw all the enjoyment Columbia, and they've got 700,000 fewer people. In spite the people in British Columbia were having, indeed of that, they are spending 25 percent more per capita across Canada, as we hosted the most successful Winter on health care to get worse outcomes than we have in Olympics that I and certainly most people can recall…. British Columbia. As people were having that fun — that includes health For our government, our focus is on the wait times. professionals: doctors and nurses and care aides — even That was confirmed not only by CIHI but also the Wait people that wanted to get their elective surgical pro- Time Alliance, which is a federation of doctors from one cedures cancelled their surgical procedures so that they end of the country to the other that also tried to hold could also partake in the largest event that will probably governments accountable for wait times. Again, they take place in their lifetime. gave British Columbia an A rating in every category. Now, the member can just want to believe that that [1540] doesn't happen and try to deny it and think we should Does that mean we've reached nirvana? No, we have have fully staffed-up OR slates when you've got cancel- not. There is still, I think, an obligation on government lations taking place because of a major event like that to make sure we consistently try to strive to continue to taking place, but really, I don't think that makes a lot of meet those targets and to demonstrate leadership. What sense. we will be doing on an ongoing basis with the health There was a drop-off in the number of elective- sur authorities, including VIHA and Fraser Health, is say- gical procedures. That was a planned drop-off during ing: "These are the targets. We expect you to meet those the period in and around the Olympic event that was targets and stay within those targets." It's their respon- taking place, and that was appropriate. That was based sibility to do so within the budgets we provide them, the on the advice and information that had come from other increased budgets. jurisdictions that had hosted Olympics. Again, to the issue of go-forward. Well, go forward we A. Dix: It was all very interesting. The question was don't know how many surgical procedures they will do. specific. The government cut the number of surgeries I especially don't know given that it will be partly what last year in Fraser Health, elective surgeries, accord- they do within the base budgets that they've been pro- ing to its own admission. We had a discussion of this at vided and also partly what they will do dependent upon length in estimates, and because estimates in that case how well they attract dollars out of the patient-focused presumably took place later in the year, the minister had funding dollars that have been put in place — as I say, an more information. additional $80 million for this year alone and another What I'm asking is: is it the plan for Fraser Health and $170 million for next year. for Vancouver Island Health this year to use the base What we do know is that Fraser and VIHA, I am ad- from last year, which is obviously a lower base, in elect- vised, met their surgical wait-list targets last year and that ive surgery? Are the cuts to elective surgery made last we will be expecting Fraser Health and VIHA to meet year going to become permanent cuts? The minister said their surgical wait-time targets this year. They will do in the Legislature, not months ago but weeks ago, that what they do best to ensure that they meet those targets. there was going to be a further cut this year in the num- I want to, first of all, acknowledge on the record and ber of elective surgeries. commend them for the fact that they met those targets While the answer to the question is very interesting, and and helped us, as I mentioned, become number one in we've heard it before in these estimates, the specific ques- the country in terms of meeting those wait-time targets tion was about elective surgeries on Vancouver Island and in every category. in Fraser Health, and whether they'd be doing the same [1545] number as last year, less than last year, more than last year, and whether the base includes the significant cuts in both A. Dix: You know, it's all very interesting. I know the VIHA and Fraser Health made last year. minister is of the view that people who have been wait- ing a long time to get well wanted to continue to wait Hon. K. Falcon: You know, I think it's worth stat- longer because of the Olympics — that we needed to ing for the record, because the member keeps going on shut down surgeries at Chilliwack Hospital during the Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5825

Olympics. We disagreed on that. We had a discussion that will be. They may end up actually being very suc- of that, but that wasn't the question. I didn't mention cessful at what they do, really outcompeting some of the the Olympics in the question. I wasn't asking about the other health authorities, doing more and taking more of Olympics in the question. that $80 million. What I was asking the minister about was…. These [1550] were his answers in the House from last November. In Or they could end up doing less. We just don't know. 2008-2009 Fraser Health did 65,716 elective surger- What we do know is they will likely end up doing more ies. He said in the House that there was going to be a surgeries as a result of not only the base budgets they reduction in that volume of 4.6 percent. Some of that have but the additional $80 million we've set aside to get reduction in volume took place in the period before the the patient-focused funding underway. games, of operating rooms. The minister will acknowledge — because it happened A. Dix: Just a precise question that came up yesterday, in this sort of reality-based world — that the operating and it follows from what the minister just said with re- rooms were shut down far before the Olympic period spect to the patient-focused funding. I appreciate that staff and that reductions took place. If 65,716 was the base will be sending over some of that information. The issue in '08-09 and that base was reduced by 3,000…. I'm of, strangely enough, the Kamloops sterilization issue that quoting from the minister here in the House. He says we raised yesterday — a full exchange…. I don't want to that what we're talking about from that 65,716 base is necessarily recanvass that exchange but just to ask this. — Minister's words — "a 4.6 percent reduction" in elect- Clearly, what the report shows — at least according ive surgeries, "about 3,000 fewer," which would put us to the mayor of Kamloops, who has read the report and about 62,716. was consulted on it yesterday — is that the prospects of I'm asking him whether that will continue to be the the hospital will be effectively undermined. Its ability base. He says…. I guess what he's saying is: "Well, I don't to meet even its current number of surgeries would be know the answer." Even though we've asked this every undermined if the present central sterilization depart- year in Health estimates, people didn't bother to bring ment process remains in place. that answer, which is fine. The minister is providing I just want to give the minister an opportunity to re- us the calendar year information, which is good, and I spond, because it's a key issue in Kamloops. They're thank him for that. really concerned. Their hospital is in a bit of trouble. I'm just asking him whether, in Fraser Health, they're Their ability to respond with sufficient numbers of -sur budgeting for any kind of percentage increase. Dr. geries has been put into question. Murray, presumably, should know this, and the minister Whether he will be responding quickly…. It's prob- should know this. Are they going to have a zero increase ably become more important, in light of patient-based on the new 62,716 base of elective surgeries? Are they funding, that he would respond quickly to the needs of planning an increase? Are they planning a cut? Or are Royal Inland Hospital, replace the sterilization depart- they planning a freeze? Equally, are they in the other ment, knowing that the success of Royal Inland Hospital health authorities? in achieving access to additional funds will depend on The answer is: the minister doesn't know.I guess we'll that. That's certainly the view of the mayor ofK amloops have to move on again with the same result, as we've and of IHA officials — and,I suspect, reflects the reality. done previously. If the present number of surgeries is difficult, it will be difficult for Royal Inland to compete for additional dol- Hon. K. Falcon: Again, I'm not in any way trying to lars under another funding model. not be as clear as I can be. I'm trying to actually be as clear as I can be and tell the member: one of the chal- Hon. K. Falcon: As I said before, if the report comes lenges is that we are not in a pure block-funded world back with a recommendation with respect to an invest- anymore. ment in the Royal Inland sterilization department, I We know that Fraser Health's budget represents about made the commitment that we would follow the recom- 25 percent of all the other health authority budgets. If mendations of the report. We will work with all the they receive 25 percent of the $80 million — for the partners, including the regional hospital district and, of sake of argument, the 80 million extra dollars that we course, Mayor Milobar, whom I have great respect for, are putting in through patient-focused funding into to ensure that the appropriate decision is made. additional surgical procedures — then, you know, the But as I said to the member yesterday, the report may member can do the math. That's over $20 million more have a number of recommendations, and the member that would be available to Fraser Health for elective sur- doesn't get the pleasure of just cherry-picking which gical procedures. ones he likes. I fully expect that the member will support Clearly, that is going to have some impact on the num- all of the recommendations coming out in that report. I ber of procedures they do, but I don't know how many think that that would be appropriate. 5826 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

A. Dix: Send it over. Esperanza Society acquired the property there that the member refers to. Government, I think, very appropri- Hon. K. Falcon: Well, the member says: "Send it over." ately agreed to make the $800,000 annual payments to But the member doesn't hesitate to take one aspect that keep those lands in reserve for a potential health facility, he's heard about from the report and say, "Government, which was one of the ideas that were being floated at the you should make a commitment for that," and he's ap- time. What I can tell the member is that that remains parently urging us to do that. I've already been on the a valuable piece of property. Whether it ever becomes record as saying that whatever the report recommen- a health care facility, it is certainly a valuable piece of dations are, we will certainly take them into account in property that could serve the interests of, I think, a gov- making our decisions — for sure. ernment for sure in the future. I find it interesting that the Health critic is being se- What I have done is I have been to St. Paul's Hospital lective about the recommendations, and I would hope on repeated occasions since I've become Health Minister. that I would hear the Health critic say: "Actually, I will In fact, I think it's probably fair to say that I have visited endorse all of the recommendations of the report." That that hospital more frequently than any other thus far, in would be appropriate, but of course, the member prob- part because of a historical affection that I do have for ably won't do that because he might not like all of the the hospital and the history but also because I happen to recommendations in the report. believe that there are just some exceptional people who I can tell you that as the minister responsible, I look work in that hospital. Every time I go there, that cer- at evidence, and I like to hear independent reports. If tainly is reinforced. Not only was my mother a nurse independent reports have recommendations, you can there for over 20 years, but the current nursing and staff be sure that this Minister of Health will take them very there, I believe, are amongst the most innovative that we seriously. have in the health care system. I think Providence should be recognized for that. One S. Chandra Herbert: A quick question. Can the min- of the strengths that Providence brings to the table many ister remind me of how many years we've been spending times is that they are very open to innovation and chan- about $800,000 every year on the Station Street lands, ges in trying to do things differently and better.C ertainly, which are currently sitting empty? that's been demonstrated every time I've gone there. What I can tell the member is that I have been en- Hon. K. Falcon: It serves us by recollection, we think, gaged in frequent conversations with St. Paul's Hospital that it's probably since about 2004. via Providence Health Care. They've got some very in- [1555] teresting ideas on some capital investments that could be made going forward. We are looking at that as part of S. Chandra Herbert: I think that's about right. I just our capital plan, and we still have a fair bit more work to wanted to make sure. About $800,000 every year since do. I have to say that and point that out. But what I can 2004 on the empty lot near Station Street, which was tell you is that the discussions have been very positive. created there or purchased, I guess, to potentially move My commitment to the facility is very strong. It is just St. Paul's Hospital out of the West End down to that lot. a belief that it forms an important part of Vancouver's Now, I know that the minister has been to St. Paul's. I history and the delivery of important services, and I do believe his mother was a nurse there and has fond mem- instinctively believe that that should continue to be the ories of that place, and I'm glad to hear it. I understand case. We are having discussions with Providence along the minister was approached by people from within those lines. Providence, from within St. Paul's, with a request that As I say, we've still got a ways to go in those discus- we move away from the idea of relocating to Station sions, but I would describe them as being really positive Street and that we move to rebuilding on site. There's and fruitful. As usual, Providence is coming forward a large parking lot in the back and a number of other with ideas and solutions that I think can ensure that St. options there on site. Instead of a billion dollars being Paul's will continue to be an important fixture in the city spent on a new space down on Station Street, we could of Vancouver. have potentially spent a lot less to revitalize St. Paul's [1600] Hospital on site. Just a question to the minister: can he provide us in- S. Chandra Herbert: I can't say strongly enough how formation on that proposal and where the government supportive I am of revitalizing St. Paul's on site and cer- is going on that? Certainly, I'm very excited about that tainly have been for many years, as have many of my option, if that is, indeed, the case. constituents in the West End and across downtown. But I completely agree with the minister about his Hon. K. Falcon: I know this is an issue that has occa- characterization of St. Paul's as, really, an innovator. sionally caused some angst in the Vancouver area. The They have innovative programs, innovative staff. I guess Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5827

the challenge is that there is all that innovation going on They appreciate that some capital investments have been in a building which is quite old and was built at a time made, but we'd love to know that a revitalized St. Paul's where the principles of how a hospital worked are very Hospital will be opening in the next few years. Can the different than they are today. minister give us an idea of the timing? I guess, as those conversations continue, I would hope the minister might be willing to include both myself as Hon. K. Falcon: I was going to make a crack about well as the MLA for Vancouver–False Creek at a min- the first thing that needs to get done at St. Paul's is the imum, given that it is our local hospital. We'd be very elevator, and anyone that goes there on a regular basis interested in working with the minister — at least on would know of what I speak. It is actually quite historic my side; I can't speak for the member for Vancouver– that that elevator still continues to operate in a facility as False Creek — to see that become a reality. Certainly, old as St. Paul's. reinvesting on site, I believe, will save us money, and it It is an amazing facility with incredible character. I will also keep St. Paul's as the innovative leader it is. think that one of the things that we have to do is make The question for the minister is: is the ministry con- sure that whatever the plans are…. And there's a fair sidering funding the creation of a business case or a bit of fleshing out that has to be done, and it's got to be business plan, through Providence, for the St. Paul's site, done contextually too, in terms of other proposed in- to determine the costs and benefits of this proposal? vestments that are being made in the Vancouver area, many of some significance. Hon. K. Falcon: As I mentioned, I was in discussions [1605] with the folks at Providence. We are in the early stages What I can tell the member is: we are going to try and of a discussion on how we can together create a business move this process along as responsibly as we can in a case that will, I think, address some of the issues that the way that continues to build on the ideas and some of the member talked about and also recognizing the invest- suggestions that were brought forward by Providence. ments that the member would know that we have made I remain, just personally, very committed to St. Paul's — almost $15 million in the new emergency department, Hospital and the outstanding workers that operate in which I had the pleasure of touring. that facility. Clearly, just again with the innovation side of things, how they staff it and the lean processes they use to get A. Dix: Just to give the minister's staff a sense of what people in and through and out of the emergency depart- to expect in the next little while, we've got about an hour ment or into an in-patient bed are truly extraordinary. of our continuing exchange today, and then we're going So the financial details about who is paying what on a to have members from the Vancouver Coastal region, business case are typically negotiated between the min- from the Northern Health region asking some specific istry and Providence, so I wouldn't go into those kinds questions. of details except to say, again, that I have spent lots of Just to say to the minister, because it's our longest in- time meeting with the doctors there, with a lot of the dividual period — and for the deputy — that if he needs administrative leaders in the hospital and with the folks to take five minutes…. I get to go in and out and be re- at Providence Health Care, both at the board level and placed, but if he needs that at any time he should just…. the administrative level. I think they do have some very, Would you like that now? Five minutes? No problem. very good ideas on how we can continue to keep St. If we could recess for five minutes. Paul's as an important part of the Vancouver health care scene and strategically make some investments there. The Chair: Yes, I'm happy to recess Committee A for I can tell the member that we are absolutely commit- five minutes. ted to moving forward on working with St. Paul's on the preparation of a business case that could flesh out The committee recessed from 4:06 p.m. to 4:15 p.m. some of the ideas and the innovation that Providence has brought forward. [J. McIntyre in the chair.]

S. Chandra Herbert: A quick question, because the A. Dix: I just wanted to ask the minister a couple of minister is giving me what I want and what we have questions about a specific proposal from employees of been calling for in the community for a long time — at the Chilliwack General Hospital. The minister will be least, so far, the commitment that that seems to be where aware of this. There's a proposal to contract out a num- we're going towards. ber of services in the region, in fact. Just a question about timing. Obviously, this project I think the minister will agree with me, notwithstand- has been on the go since at least 2001, if not earlier, in ing his view on the proposal, that it's outstanding that terms of the need to renovate and revitalize St. Paul's. So workers who are very committed to their work at the obviously, my constituents are getting a little impatient. hospital and the neighbouring hospitals got together 5828 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

and put forward a proposal to save money, essentially to A. Dix: Of course, the Minister of Health is respon- compete for their jobs. sible for those decisions through this Legislature. In this The proposal they put forward is a very interesting case I think the workers involved…. While the minister proposal. I want to ask the minister if he has reviewed it. talks about it as a union proposal, it was really the work- The proposal saves in the neighbourhood of three-quar- ers who are doing the work who made the proposal. ters of a million dollars. Of course, it saves jobs as well. What has been suggested is that the Fraser Health It appears, anyway, that the Fraser Health Authority Authority is insisting that it be a third party that con- doesn't think the proposal should be considered. I'd just ducts the work. Now, in spite of the fact that they've like to ask the minister, I guess, if he has reviewed the found $747,000 in savings, that doesn't matter. Indeed, proposal, what he thinks of the proposal and whether what makes the proposal, I think, pretty courageous and he would be prepared to review the proposal side by side indicates that it comes from a group of workers really with the contract bidders to assess its value. committed to the hospital and to the neighbouring hos- pitals is the fact that the proposal would, amongst other Hon. K. Falcon: With respect to the Health critic, I things, from the workers themselves, cut 16 full-time am pretty sure the Health critic knows that the Minister positions. of Health isn't reviewing tendering documents on health [1620] authorities that are going out to tender on services they So the proposal they make cuts 16 full-time positions, require for food, laundry or housekeeping, nor will the and the response they get back is, "We don't want you to minister be doing that. Anyhow, it's an interesting way of compete, and there are no net savings," which is just in- thinking how the Minister of Health should spend his time. consistent with the document that was presented. What the Minister of Health is most concerned about, I guess my question to the minister is not that he re- of course, is the quality of services and making sure, as view every contract but that he look at this one, because we do, that they're independently audited. The health it has real significance in the area. The workers involved authorities are responsible for ensuring that they go and have put on an extraordinary effort to save money. get the best possible value and the best possible quality They've asked the minister, and they've contacted the in whatever the services are. minister and the local MLAs in question. They've met In this case I understand that what they're looking at with the member for Chilliwack-Hope and the member is bundling a number of services with the successful RFP for Chilliwack on this question. proponent on issues related to laundry, food, house- I'm simply asking the minister to review this ques- keeping and waste management. tion, given the broader policy implications, and ensure Now, I am aware of the fact that the HEU made a that a fair opportunity to compete is being offered here, proposal. First of all, I want to commend that, because so that whatever decision the Fraser Health Authority I actually think that is a good thing. I think that there might make, the workers, who have put forward a really should always be an opportunity for those who are outstanding proposal that the minister has received, get providing the current level of services to have an oppor- a fair opportunity to compete for the work with a pro- tunity to compete. posal that seems outstanding. The member opposite has described in some detail As I noted to the minister, while Fraser Health ap- the proposal. I don't have any of that detail except to pears to want a third party to contract the work, and say that I understand, according to the review that the Fraser Health claims there are no net savings…. In fact, health authority did on the proposal submitted by the as I said, the workers have proposed plans that would HEU, that it did not meet the request for proposal cri- save $750,000 and reduce the number of full-time pos- teria nor did it present any cost savings. itions by 16, which is a really hard thing for people to do Of course, that would be a challenge because I think, as in their workplace and, I think, is worthy of merit. I've talked about earlier, that even in an environment where In this case, because of a very specific circumstance, our health care budget is increasing 15 percent or $2 bil- I'm asking the minister to review that and particularly lion over the next three years, there is still a challenge to try review the issue of whether the workers, who are trying and bend that cost curve down. That's one of the reasons to save their jobs here and have made really an extra- why the health authority would be entertaining proposals ordinary effort, get a fair opportunity to compete, which like this. I think is something that is in his purview and is some- I apologize to the Health critic. I don't have those thing that I think the workers deserve. details nor would I ever be reviewing documents like They're going to be working there under the provi- that. That is entirely and appropriately in the purview of sions regardless for some further period. Whether he the Fraser Health Authority, and it is the Fraser Health would intervene to make sure that happens…. I think Authority that is responsible for making those decisions those are the kinds of assurances that the Liberal MLAs and accountable for the results of those decisions in for the area had offered, and that's really the question I terms of the quality of services being provided. have for the minister. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5829

Hon. K. Falcon: First of all, I thank the member for the health authority and Providence Health Care. At the the question, and I thank the member for some of the same time, there is a need to move the beds. additional information that the member has provided In this case, I think it's fair to say, this is the only with respect to the proposal that was made. I am en- part of the Riverview move of beds where the receiv- couraged, to be honest, and I would agree with the ing organization, in this case Providence, isn't getting…. member that when the HEU is making an offer like that They're getting money to upgrade their facility and to and attempting to recognize the challenges in the health change their facility, but they're not getting money in system and trying to do their part to come up with sav- this case to build a new facility or a specific facility. ings, that ought to be applauded and recognized. There's certainly room for that. The minister will know I will have one of my assistant deputy ministers take a that there's certainly an empty portion of land on the St. look at that and ensure…. As the member is suggesting Vincent's Hospital site — where St. Vincent's Hospital that it may not have been given a fair look, I will make used to be — where you could build such a facility or sure that there is a look taken at it from my assistant others in the old model that Vancouver Coastal Health deputy minister to ensure, in fact, that it has been done put forward, the campus-of-care model. That would be exactly as one would expect — that it is a fair process something that, in fact, might be recommended. that met the requirements laid out in the request for I think that Providence were the only ones that were proposals and that it demonstrated the kind of savings asked to accommodate on existing sites to make room that Fraser Health was looking for. for these Riverview beds that didn't get any new capital, I don't think for a second that Fraser Health would have which I think is unfortunate given the shortage of both any hesitation in sharing that information — well, they seniors care beds and mental health beds. won't — with my assistant deputy minister, and we will I gather the decision by Vancouver Coastal Health look at that for the member opposite and make sure. The was, as these things are, made without consultation with reason why I do want to do that is because, actually, I do the residents, and it's going to lead to a real concern for want to make sure that when a union like HEU is making the residents. a real attempt to try and be part of a solution — as it would I will just give the minister an example of the kind of appear, in accordance to what the member has shared with concern. It's a personal story, and I don't say it to add to me — we do take a look to make sure that they've been it. I know that these are very difficult questions. There's a given every opportunity to put forward a reasonable pro- gentleman whose mom is being displaced and who also posal. So I will have that looked at by my assistant deputy had another family member displaced at a mental health minister, and I thank the member for that. facility which was also closed. It's had real consequences in both cases for the health of both individuals — just A. Dix: I had just a question with respect to the deci- the stress in his mother's case and the real impacts of sions made to essentially transfer Riverview services to the transfer. Youville residential care facility and Langara residential I want to ask the minister (a) to what extent the dif- care facility. The minister will know…. These are extra- ficulties that this is going to pose to seniors weighed on ordinarily difficult questions, I think, particularly for this decision and, secondly, whether the minister thinks the seniors in question, principally seniors. I think al- that it wouldn't make more sense, rather than trying to most all of the people who are affected who would be transform these facilities…. Having toured the facilities, displaced by this move, the seniors affected…. They're I don't think that the transformation is going to be easy, just very difficult questions. and I really suggest to the minister that he give a visit [1625] to Langara and take a look at some specific things that I We all know, because we know health outcomes re- was going to raise with him earlier. lated to these kinds of moves, that there's a real effect I don't make these suggestions in an attacking sort of when you move seniors from somewhere which is their way, but just to raise the concerns raised by the seniors. home and their room in their facility. It has real con- So I think that there are some things that need to be ad- sequences for their health outcomes. Certainly it's the dressed at Langara that are specific toL angara that make case here. I visited the people at Providence Health Care. that a difficult decision. To what extent do the needs of They gave me a tour of the Langara site. I've been to the the seniors weigh on this decision? Clearly, it's going to Youville site, as well, just as an MLA, meeting with con- have negative health outcomes as a matter of course for stituents there in the past. So I'm familiar with the sites. them. I think the circumstance is this. I mean, what you're And (b) why was the decision taken to transform these talking about in some respects are the difficult questions facilities? I presume the decision was taken for cost rea- that often face Health ministers and health authorities sons. The floors in question have single rooms, and the when they're trying to meet competing goals. There's a single rooms are easier to transform. shortage of seniors care beds in Vancouver. There is, and Why was the decision taken not to provide, say, on the that's acknowledged by everyone — including, I think, St. Vincent site through Providence, a specific facility 5830 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

for the patients and residents coming from Riverview in terms of how many beds that is, 1,100 beds is a lot. rather than this effort at a hodgepodge which, I think That's almost as many as were built in the entire decade the minister would agree, is far from ideal? Why was of the 1990s, to just sort of give some perspective around that decision made? it. That's just in Vancouver Coastal. It's not an issue, really, of integration, because these I think that in a perfect world I would agree with the are going to be locked-down facilities, so there's not member that if there were unlimited budgets, probably going to be much in the way of integration. I guess the that would be an ideal way to deal with this. But we don't question I have for the minister is: why was the decision live in a perfect world where we have unlimited budgets. made, and why not consider the St. Vincent's site rather What Providence, I think, is trying to do is ensure than taking these beds out of the seniors care system that as they do this, they work very closely with the fam- and the long-term care system? Why not consider that ilies. The member will know that they've had, I am led option instead? Why was that option ultimately rejected to understand, numerous meetings with the residents by the government? that are currently in the facilities and their families to [1630] put together individualized care plans for each of those individuals and determine whether or not, given some Hon. K. Falcon: First of all, I know that the member options in terms of where they might have an opportun- likes to sort of make it seem like every single decision ity to relocate, that would work for both the individual is made at my desk and that I control, apparently, every resident and the families. This is not an easy thing. lever in the province for every decision that is made by The other thing they have also done is stopped tak- every health authority, but thankfully, that is not the ing new in-patients into their existing facilities both case. at Youville and at the east coast neighbourhood. They Thankfully, we actually have a provision where stopped taking new residents in February. we work with the health authorities — in this case, The belief and the hope is that through the normal Providence — to deal with an issue that has been a transitioning that sometimes takes place, many of these longstanding issue for British Columbia, and that is individual residents that wish to stay in the facility the repatriation of Riverview clients, Riverview health will, hopefully, be able to be accommodated as they go clients, back into their communities. It is, I think, safe through the process of renovating the east wing for these to say that in the past — and this member would have individuals. In the case of Youville, I believe it's the top some familiarity with it, because this is an issue that two floors that are being renovated to allow for the trans- transcends governments — there were commitments fer of these individuals back into their communities. made but, unfortunately, no dollars that were provided What I do know, the level of detail I know, is that to actually allow this to happen. Vancouver Coastal has worked very hard with the families to try and ensure that this is undertaken in a [N. Letnick in the chair.] manner that is as compassionate and as thoughtful and as careful as they possibly can. That is always, I think, a Since 2001 we've had 421 Riverview health clients challenging issue. move to community facilities across British Columbia, [1635] giving them the opportunity to come back to their com- My hope is that as they work through the individualized munity. That includes Youville and, as the member talks care plans and that as they work with each resident and about, the Langara campus facility. I think they call it their families, they will be able to arrive at solutions that the east wing — is that correct? — of the Langara cam- will, hopefully, meet the needs of the vast majority of the pus facility. families that might be impacted by this change that's taking In many if not most cases, these are individuals that place to fulfil a longstanding governmental commitment. were from Vancouver. So the issue is: how can we ensure I thank the member for the invite to tour Langara. that as they move back into their community, they are One of my challenges as a minister is that I am invited moved back into facilities with the appropriate level of to tour facilities, as the member could imagine, in every supports that one would expect — the appropriate en- part of the province. I wish I was able to get to all of hanced supports? them. I'm often not able to.B ut when this issue was first The member is correct to point out, I suppose, that raised with respect to Youville, I did look into this issue. in a perfect world where you had unlimited budgets, I did have a discussion with staff about this issue.I made you would just build brand-new, purpose-built facili- sure I was briefed on the issue at the time, and this was ties every time, and certainly, there have been a lot of some months ago — at least a couple of months ago, if seniors residence–building going on in the Vancouver my memory serves me correctly. Coastal area. The one thing that was very important to me was In fact, over 1,100 new units of seniors housing have that the families involved would be treated with the ut- been built since 2001. I think, to put that in perspective, most compassion and thoughtfulness. In fact, that is the Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5831

Providence Health Care tradition. I believe that's exactly I'm raising some of those issues directly with Providence what they are trying to do in these circumstances. and with staff, and we've done some of that process already, which is essentially casework. A. Dix: Many of the seniors in question have been I would like to ask the minister to consider the forced to…. They've all been informed from one day to extraordinary impact of this decision on the residents the next that they are forced to relocate. There was a very who are currently on those floors, and whether or not significant series of issues involving contractors walking it would be possible, using the remarkable amount of through facilities and so on, which we've tried to work space available next to the Youville site, the St. Vincent's with Providence to ensure doesn't recur. Ultimately, it's site, to accommodate the new patients — who we all just a very hard decision for the seniors in question. acknowledge need to be accommodated and we want to What the minister is saying — and his position is his pos- accommodate — in that way. ition — is that even though there's a requirement for seniors [1640] beds and even though there's a requirement for what we might broadly call mental health beds, they've chosen the Hon. K. Falcon: Look, I think it's important to point option of sacrificing these seniors beds in order to have a out that Providence is making a substantial investment cheaper option for the mental health beds. I think that's the in both of these facilities. Youville is 42 beds with an position, and there are arguments you can make to that. investment of just over $5 million, and of course, the Surely the minister understands that forcing people Langara east wing that we talked about is 20 neuropsych who've sometimes lived in the facility for a very long beds at a cost of over $1.7 million. period of time and all of whom…. I've met the Langara Certainly, I'm not going to step in and start messing ones. I haven't met all of the people who are being forced up what I know has been a lot of work and a lot of attempt to move from their rooms at Youville. to recognize that some folks — and, hopefully, very few The consequence of the move is real on the health of at the end of the day — will be impacted to the extent the people being forced to move, and even in the best of that they may need to locate to a different unit either on circumstances and using the best of approaches…. That the Langara campus or within one of the other health hasn't been the case yet, although some improvements authority units in Vancouver Coastal. That is only go- have been made over the past few months, perhaps even ing to happen after, asI say, individualized plans are put by the intervention of the minister or myself. Things together for each one of those residents and their family have got better, but at the end of the day, people are being members, who will be involved in great detail. forced to move, and it's extremely upsetting. I do think, though, that if we step back and think for The question I'd have a little bit is about…. Just as an a minute, it's fair to address the question, particularly example of how difficult it is, the east wing at Langara of those that are impacted: why is this happening? Why surrounds a very beautiful garden that the foundation is government taking these folks from Riverview and fundraised for, and it is a very beautiful garden. Just as moving them back into communities and, in this par- an example of what's required, because it's not a purpose- ticular case, potentially having an impact on those who built facility in that case, that's why it would be useful, are there enjoying things as they are? even if the minister couldn't visit, for ministry staff who Many of these individuals — and they're not all seniors, are responsible to take a look. as the member would know; some of them are as young Just an example of how this is a difficult fit is that as in their 20s — have either acquired brain injuries or we're talking about the first floor, east wing, in Langara. are dealing with complex mental health issues. They may It surrounds a garden, and one of two options will be have severe Parkinson's disease, issues that really require required. What the residents have been told and the rest a very high level of care. of Langara has been told is that the residents of 1E, the Importantly, these are individuals we know that func- new residents of 1E, won't be allowed in the garden that tion best with appropriate enhanced supports, and the they look out through a piece of glass at. That is hugely best evidence supports the fact that they function best unfair to the new residents. when they are part of their community, not institution- On the other hand, there's enormous anxiety, and I alized at a facility like Riverview. think an understanding on the part of the administrators, The east unit of the Langara campus, those 20 special- that that garden which is there can't be shared under ized neuropsychiatry beds that are going to be put in normal circumstances between the two sets of residents. place with the enhanced supports, are going to be part of So it's an example of what happens when things aren't not only best evidence, best practices for those individ- purpose-built. uals but, again, part of the original vision that has been I appreciate the minister looking at this. I've met with in place but, frankly, that governments prior to us being the families. I'm not raising some of their concerns elected in 2001 weren't actually supporting with dollars. about the process with the minister, because I actually It's one thing to say we need to have folks back in don't think that he takes responsibility for all of those. their communities, but what was happening was that 5832 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

they were being released from Riverview with no sup- Dr. Patrick Smith. The plan was in the 2008 throne ports. We know what the end result of that has been. We speech, but the plan itself hasn't been published. In this are still dealing with the challenges of many of those case…. When you have a ten-year plan, you have ten individuals and trying to provide them the kind of sup- years of notice that the plan is going to be up. You do an ported housing with support services so that they can RFP in 2007, and then there's no new plan for the last be looked after with dignity, the kind of thing that one three years. I just wanted to ask the minister where that would expect from the government. might have been, where it might have gone. I recognize that this is a challenge. I thank the mem- ber for bringing it up. But I am satisfied that Providence, Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the critic for the question. I as is in keeping with the Providence tradition — which think the critic would be disappointed if I didn't point is, of course, a religious-based tradition founded in the out that the 1998 mental health plan that was intro- Catholic faith, very much compassionate and caring to- duced by the NDP government had no dollars attached wards those that are within their care; they always have to it. I know that the member would be disappointed if been; I believe they always will be — is working very, I didn't say that, so I thought I'd say that for the benefit very carefully with each of those residents and their of the member. families to try and undertake this change. [1650] I recognize that changes are very unsettling, but they're I do think that some very good work has been going trying to do it in as compassionate a way as possible. I am on with respect to this. The member is correct that an certainly satisfied that they are really trying very, very RFP did go out to help bring about and pull together the hard to do that. updated mental health plan. This, of course, isn't being [1645] done in a vacuum. It's being done at a time where we're already making very substantial investments. A. Dix: I will just say this. We're talking about the dis- We were just talking about, a couple of moments ago…. placement of 62 people. It's going to be very hard on all We just saw an announcement yesterday of $225 million of them. All the evidence shows that it's going to have from the province and the Streetohome Foundation for real health impacts, at least on some of them. I know, supportive housing for those, many of whom have mental having met with them, that it has huge impacts on lots health and addiction issues…. of them. We've got the five assertive community teams, the As I mentioned to the minister, the closing of a com- ACT teams, in Vancouver that go out and seek out those munity mental health facility recently, in the case of with mental health and addiction challenges to connect one family, led to an individual having to go back to them with services, to try and bring a more whole-of- Riverview. Having spent ten years in the community government approach to this challenge. We work very and made progress, the closing of that community in the closely with the Ministry of Housing to ensure that we Fraser Health Authority led to very serious consequences. not only house these folks but also make sure they also I think these families really feel this passionately — not have the appropriate addictions and mental health sup- really having had this issue even talked of to them. ports at the same time. They weren't even talked to before this was announced What has been happening since 2007? Obviously, — that they're out. There was no suggestion that it might there's been very extensive consultation that's gone on. take place. They were simply told that places that are I personally have met with a large number of the stake- their homes…. Regardless of whether they're residential holder groups, both individually and as large groups, as care beds or what they are, those are their homes that we work on the updated mental health plan. they're being forced to leave. So it's a very disconcerting I've also had the opportunity to note how other min- situation for them and has real consequences. istries that touch on issues around mental health and I think they'd like to believe that that was weighed in the addictions are part of the discussion, because one of the equation. Clearly, Providence Health Care would rather things that we do know for sure is: as we go forward, it have had a purpose-built facility. I think that's fair to say. has to be a whole-of-government approach. That is cer- Those decisions weren't made by Providence either. tainly supported by best evidence. A review of all the I had a question to the minister. It's just a very simple literature is also a key part of this, to make sure that as question. In 2007 there was an RFP for a ten-year mental we go forward, we are aligning our investments that we health plan. The previous plan was the 1998 plan that are making both currently and in the future with best would end in 2007 or 2008. It's a little unclear on the practices and best evidence. numbers there, but let's call it 2008 for the sake of argu- I've also had the opportunity to meet on a number of ment. The government did anRF P that was posted on the occasions with Senator Kirby, who is heading up a federal website August 31, 2007. It closed September 14, 2007. commission. Sen. Michael Kirby is a well-regarded sen- The results of that weren't published, but a consulta- ator who has done some very important work in a number tion process on the plan was undertaken, and it involved of areas and whom the Prime Minister has appointed to Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5833

chair a national task force with respect to mental health. The consultation that he was involved with, I gather, So I want to ensure that we are touching base with Senator was part of a tour around an initial plan that took place Kirby. between October 2008 and July 2009. What happened I just met with him as recently as within the last at that point? couple of weeks to ensure that we are developing our As I understand it — people told us a little bit about plans not only based on the best evidence and the what they saw going on — the report that was given to whole-of-government approach and ensuring all the the government at that point used as a model the model stakeholders have a viewpoint, but also making sure in Victoria, Australia, which is a community-based that we're learning whatever might be being discov- model and uses a pretty comprehensive population ered through the work that's being undertaken and the health approach. That's their approach. That model has dollars that are being invested through Senator Kirby's been changed, I gather, more recently in the process, federal commission. which is fair enough. That is the state of it, Member. I can tell you that we I just wanted the minister maybe to take me through are very close to, I think, releasing a draft report, and that period. What was the process and, really, why — I am actually excited about the opportunities that lie again, I'm just asking for my own information, I guess ahead for us. I do think that what is really interesting to — has a plan that was supposed to be ready in 2008 still me in mental health and addictions is just how much we not been released, even in draft form, in May 2010? have learned and how much has changed. As Minister That's almost two years late on a plan and a process that of Health I findI 'm very much driven by evidence, even was initiated three years ago. That's quite late. when that evidence I don't sometimes like or instinct- ively feel like it's something that I grapple with. [D. Horne in the chair.] Insite would be an example of that, where you just instinctively think: how can this be, that we would al- Hon. K. Falcon: With respect to Dr. Patrick Smith, low individuals to, in a supportive environment, inject I'm just getting advice from my staff. The member would themselves with dangerous drugs? But the evidence recognize that when this process got started, I didn't seems to demonstrate that it is effective for helping to have the opportunity to be the Minister of Health at the put these folks into contact with health services and to, time, so I'm getting up to speed a little bit on the histor- hopefully, get them to a stage where they're ready to ac- ical nature of this. cept the kinds of interventions that can help them get off [1700] of their very challenging and difficult addictions. I understand that Dr. Smith was seconded from the I'm sorry about that, Member. I know that was a Provincial Health Services Authority. He was seconded longer answer than I probably should be doing, but it on the basis that he, I understand, is quite a knowledg- is an area that I think some real progress is being made, able and specialized individual in terms of his credentials. and I'm excited about it. He has a PhD in psychiatry. He apparently is a specialist with respect to addictions and mental health. Dr. Smith, A. Dix: Just briefly, on the 2007 RFP, who won the I understand, was quite involved in the process. RFP to write the original draft? The reason why it is taking some time — and appro- [1655] priately, I think…. This is an area thatI have a great deal of personal interest in, because I think mental health Hon. K. Falcon: I'm advised that the consulting com- challenges are much more widespread than most people pany was called Wave Consulting. The principal is Dyan would believe. The impacts I've seen firsthand on indi- Dunsmoor-Farley. Ms. Farley's role was to support the viduals…. It certainly is something that we are learning consultation process and the framework for putting this an awful lot on — how to deal with the issues of mental together. I want to emphasize that she was not there to health and addictions. write a report. That's not her role.H er role was to ensure The problem is that we've got to make some pretty sig- that the consultative process was thoughtful, expansive nificant shifts in how we deal with it, because the old and inclusive as we started building the new mental model that has governed the province for many years is health and addictions plan. very much a tertiary institutional model, which is sort of the classic…. You know, put them in Riverview, or deal A. Dix: So we started off with Wave Consulting, and with them when they show up at the emergency depart- the goal at that time, as I understand it from the RFP, ments, etc. was to produce a mental health plan in 2008 — which One of the things we know is that all the best evi- would make sense. The previous plan had expired in dence is telling us that, actually, we have to change our 2008. The government engaged in a consultative process approach to a much more preventative approach that that Dr. Smith was involved with. Was Dr. Patrick Smith gets in early, particularly to our kids, when they start to directed to be involved in this process? exhibit or demonstrate anxiety and the kind of behav- 5834 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

iours that, if not dealt with early on, can easily become at the Riverview facility to recognize that some of these much more significant mental health challenges later on, folks will require ongoing and very much a high level of in their teenage years or early adult years or, indeed, well care and will not be good candidates for transitioning into their adult years. into the community. So those investments were made. That has meant a different approach than we took [1705] historically. Historically what would happen is that the We've also made additional investments. The new Ministry of Health would put together a plan, typically Cypress Lodge is one of the new lodges we've opened based on the way we've always done things. Under that on the Riverview campus that I had the opportunity to old scenario, we probably would have been able to move visit. I would encourage the Health critic, actually, sort within that time frame. of all politics aside…. The Chair was also there with me, We were taking a whole-of-government approach, as was the Minister of Small Business and Economic meaning that we had to involve the Ministry of Education Development, when we visited that facility for the offi- for sure, because there's an element of children and mak- cial opening ceremony. ing sure that we have the ability to get at children early You cannot walk away from that building without be- on. Because we were involving the Ministry of Children ing touched by, first of all, the incredible facility itself. It and Families and other ministries to ensure that this is has got to be one of the most uninstitutional-like set- indeed a whole-of-government effort, it did require us tings I've ever been in — lots of natural light. It's built to take some more time. to really feel like a home, with beautiful murals and My personal belief with respect to this is that it's paintings that were contributed from people within the much more important that we get it right than that we community through a contest that was held to allow the get it quickly. I do believe now that we are certainly at a public to have an opportunity to put some beautiful pic- point where I think those discussions and the work and tures into this facility. The caring, the total caring nature the extra time that was spent are going to pay significant of the workers there, was really something to behold. It dividends, particularly in ensuring, as I mentioned ear- certainly touched me. lier, that we align to some other research and work that Again, I appreciate the member's…. The critic is ac- has been done at the federal level through Sen. Michael tually being very good to allow me to go on, but I make Kirby and the good work that he and his commission these points because we continue to make those in- are doing with respect to mental health. vestments as we build the mental health plan. These Again, some of the early indications coming out of investments are informed from what we learn and con- the work that they're doing emphasize the importance tinue to learn as we're putting together the plan. of early treatment, the importance of dealing with the It would not have been possible without the groups unfortunate stigma that often is associated with mental that are involved in the mental health alliance that have health. You see that sometimes when we are, for example, been very, very good partners in this process as we have transitioning folks from Riverview to communities. gone through creating the new mental health and ad- There often is that initial reaction of unfortunate, misin- dictions plan to take us forward into the next decade formed perspectives about what these folks are like. and beyond. Just as a final thing, I'll say that I had the opportunity I thank the member and the critic for giving me the to visit one of the new facilities we built. I want to em- latitude and the opportunity to talk about some of these phasize this because I don't want to leave the impression issues, which are near and dear to me. for a moment that while we are undertaking this signifi- cant work and taking more time to get it right, nothing A. Dix: Oh, I hesitate to say briefly; I feel like I'm just else has been happening. encouraging the minister. I won't say briefly.I 'll just say: We all know about the Burnaby Centre for Mental can the minister…. Two very precise points about this: Health and Addiction, which is a state-of-the-art, 100- when will we expect to see the plan? What will happen bed facility in Burnaby that actually has helped inform after we see the plan publicly? us in some of the lessons that we need to learn on a go- Will it be in final form or draft form at that point? You forward basis. One of the things we've discovered from see, here I'm making it more difficult, because I'm add- many of the patients that are presenting at the Burnaby ing a third question. Is it expected to be a policy plan Centre for Mental Health and Addiction is that they — in other words, guiding us towards more prevention, have severe disorders, both on the addiction side and more community-based work, more population health on the mental health side. That requires a different -ap work, more focus on young people, as the minister sug- proach in terms of how we're going to treat them. gests — or will it be a series of initiatives, as well, that What we also discovered is that some of the folks that have money attached to them? graduate, if I could use that term, from the Burnaby cen- It could be either. One doesn't preclude the other, but tre are incapable of living, even with supports, in their I'm just asking what he expects the plan to do in that community. That required us to make a new investment regard. Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5835

Hon. K. Falcon: Member, we plan to have that plan say, October 2010, for the sake of argument. So it's a released this fall. It will be a complete plan. It will not be three-year process. The consultation ended midway a draft.I t's in the draft process right now, so we're having through 2008, external to government, in that what the opportunity to go through it and have a look. we've seen in the final 15 months of the process would It will really be an overarching and very important be consultation internal to government. guiding document for government. One of the things Is that a fair description of the process it has taken? that it will do is to inform government on how we are And is there any estimate as to the cost of that process? going to have to look at doing things differently in terms I know that the initial requirement was to lead a team of how we deal with the issues of mental health and of ten through the consultation process, but presumably, addictions. It will be a very important document with the cost is more significant than that. respect to that. [1710] Hon. K. Falcon: I'm advised that the external consul- What does it mean by a guiding document? The mem- tations actually finished in June of '09, so that would be ber says: "Well, does that mean there'll be specific things 12 months ago. For the last 12 months virtually all of the with budget items attached to them?" No. What it will discussion has been both across government and with be is a document that will say to government…. For ex- the health authorities but also, of course, with the fed- ample, in the Ministry of Health alone we spend about eral health commission. That has, essentially, consumed $1.26 billion on mental health and addictions. That's most of the efforts since that time. just in Health. Now, of course we've got Housing, which [1715] again spends hundreds of millions of dollars more on I want to recognize that that is being done at the same housing. Then Children and Families will be spending time, of course, as we've seen the health authorities in- whatever they spend, but it will certainly be in the tens crease the adult community mental health beds by 64 of millions of dollars. You've got Education doing what percent since 2001, increase the community addiction Education does. beds by 205 percent. There were 874 beds in 2003, and All of this across the whole of government will be today there are 2,662. And of course, the opening of informed by this document, and that document will the Burnaby Centre for Mental Health and Addiction become now the measure by which we have to look at and the Cypress Lodge and the other lodges that have everything we're doing to ensure that it aligns with the opened on the Riverview campus, etc. All of that has new mental health and addictions plan. been going on at the same time. That involves change. It involves change, for example, The final thing I would say with respect to the cost to say: "You know what? It actually is not appropriate — the member asked about the cost — is that virtually to be waiting to treat these people until they become all of the costs were absorbed in-house, I'm advised by highly acute and they present at emergency depart- staff, except of course for the Wave Consulting contract, ments, where it becomes a very expensive level of care." and the Wave Consulting contract was issued back in It means that we have to treat them in the community 2007. Staff couldn't recall what the contract amount was. earlier. We have to try and intervene earlier when some It was actually another ministry that issued the contract, of these challenges present, as early as school children Healthy Living and Sport. I'm sure that it's either on the age. Again, that's what the evidence is telling us. record, or we could probably find it out for the member We're excited about it. We're looking forward to that if he's interested. release in the fall, and I think this is going to be in many ways a seminal document that will, I hope, help inform A. Dix: Just a question on another subject. And I'd other governments, too, that also struggle and deal with appreciate if you could find that out. Just given the size these challenges across the country. of the initiative, I don't think that the contract amount will be in any way surprising, so I'm just curious as to A. Dix: So what we'll have in the end is sort of a guid- that process. ing document. Then what would flow from that would I want to ask the minister about nurse practitioners. be initiatives that the minister would undertake from I want to put this problem to the minister. I think he that point on in consultation with the health authorities probably — I'm hoping — will share my astonishment and so on. That's what we're looking at. and frustration with this story, which I got from the Since the project was initiated in September of 2007, minister's own website, which is always — not always there hasn't been any work product released. I just want — the best source of information. It has a very nice bio to check with the minister. There hasn't been any work of the minister, and it includes the story of a Clearbrook product released publicly in that time, as I understand clinic and a woman named Janet Baillies, who is a nurse it. practitioner on site. What happened was that they started the process in Essentially, the clinic got funding to expand its size September 2007. The process will end in, roughly, let's and to deal with more patients from the Fraser Health 5836 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Authority — right? I think it's fair to say that I've rarely Hon. K. Falcon: I'm letting the Health critic know seen the kind of praise for a project that this project has that I'm trying to get details on that specific case, and I received from patients. And then I read on the minis- apologize for the fact that it's taking a while. We're try- ter's website, chronic care page…. ing to pull that together. Here are some excerpts. "At the Clearbrook clinic, the medical team includes Janet Bail- A. Dix: We can do it after. lies, the nurse practitioner on staff. She's an RN who has nursed in just about every capacity in her career. After her education Hon. K. Falcon: Okay. But I want to say a couple upgrade, she's now qualified to order tests and diagnostics, leav- ing the doctors free to do what they do best. things about the nurse practitioners program, first of "'I don't know how I'd run the practice without her,' Newton all. The first thing is that we're proud of the fact that we says of Baillies: 'When I look at what she does in a day, there's no in British Columbia started the nurse practitioners pro- way I could absorb that work.' gram. I'm just going by memory on all of this, Member, "One of the theories behind the team-based approach is that so if I'm wrong on one of the dates, I apologize. I think family physicians should be able to take on larger patient loads. that it was in 2003. At the same time, they should manage more easily by having a nurse practitioner on staff who can requisition prescription refills, For the members of the viewing public or members among other tasks." that are gathered here, one thing they would know, or What impressed me, and I know a little about the should know, is that a nurse practitioner is like a regis- subject from the patient perspective, is the work that tered nurse but with a master's degree. They're very Ms. Baillies did with people with diabetes, for example, highly trained. They're not quite doctors, but they're sort which is extraordinary. of between doctors and nurses. So what happens? Her funding is cut by the Fraser I have met with the leadership of the Nurse Health Authority. I'm not using the word "cut" in a…. Practitioners Association now on a couple occasions. I, Her funding was cut. She no longer received funding. first of all, have to acknowledge thatI don't think that we That's what I mean by the term "cut," to the minister. So have handled this file well at all as government.I want to an extraordinarily successful program praised on the accept responsibility for that, because I just don't think ministry's website, and the funding is cut. that we have. Why is it cut? It is cut because of the fact that all the Why haven't we? Because when we created the nurse money saved, really, which is quite, I think, exceptional…. practitioners, the truth is that we hadn't particularly fig- The quality of care is described on the minister's website ured out how and where they could fit into the system as exceptional. Essentially, the money saved is saved by really well. Instead, we provided for the period from 2005 to 2009, $62.7 million to the health authorities and the government directly under MSP. said: "Fit them into the system." The costs of the program were born under thein- I think that what we should have done a lot better, to novation fund by the Fraser Health Authority. So in be candid with you, is to say: "Actually, here's how we the Fraser Health Authority's narrow interests, they're believe they can fit into the system. We want to follow not getting any benefit from this. It's other funding of those dollars and make sure that's exactly where they government — the provincial government is; the health went, to ensure that those nurse practitioners are being care system is. incorporated into the system in the best possible way." Money is being saved effectively, but because there [1725] are competing internal interests to organizations under So I want to start by acknowledging that that is a the direction of the minister, the funding is cut, a ser- shortcoming and one that we are working very dili- vice is lost, the quality of care diminishes and costs gently to improve upon. I say that because I think that it increase — right? They've got to go out and recruit a just needs to be said. It's something I've said to the nurse doctor and at a higher cost to the overall health care sys- practitioners when I've met with them, and I think that tem through fee-for-service than was being paid before it's only fair to say that here too. all this happened. Now, one of the things that we are doing in British I guess I want to put that to the minister. We have a Columbia, and why I think the nurse practitioners are problem, clearly, right now in using nurse practitioners going to be so important as we go forward, is that they to improve health care services, in many cases to pro- can fulfil a very important role as we increasingly shift vide service where it's not available. towards a primary care model that says we want to try [1720] and look after patients, particularly those with chronic I'm wondering if the minister could comment on Ms. illness and chronic disease, more effectively in the Baillie's case and tell us what plans the government has, community. because as he knows, the majority of nurse practition- We try and move away from the approach we have ers trained in B.C. are not currently employed as nurse right now, which is that we wait until people get really practitioners. sick and they show up at the acute care or tertiary care Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5837

facilities — or, to use the language of most people, at family physicians. It has not worked as well with the their local hospital — to be treated for whatever their nurse practitioners. ailments are. Hopefully, now that I've given a high-level response We have made some progress on that. We've worked to the member, we might have some specific answer to with the B.C. Medical Association, and we've provided the question with respect to the Abbotsford case. over the last five or six years about $800 million to spe- cifically enhance the family practice program by having J. Kwan: I thank my colleague the member for a number of services. One of them was the enhanced Vancouver-Kingsway for yielding the floor to me to ask family practice program, which I believe may be the some specific questions related to services in my riding. program that the member is referencing here with re- In fact, I'd like to ask the minister about the Health spect to the case in Abbotsford. Contact Centre. As the minister knows, on May 3 the The enhanced family practice program was a program Vancouver Coastal Health Authority closed down the that provided grants to enhance the family practice. I Health Contact Centre in the Downtown Eastside. This believe, when we get the information on the case that is a facility that's right beside the Carnegie Community the member is referencing, that it will probably be a case Centre. It is the heart of the Downtown Eastside. of where a doctor, operating their family practice or pri- You may not be aware, Mr. Chair, that this import- vate practice, applied and received a grant under the ant facility was opened back in the year 2000 as part of enhanced family practice program, hired a nurse prac- the Vancouver agreement. It was one of the four health titioner, and the nurse practitioner probably undertook facilities that were established as part of the comprehen- some very good work. Then the grant came to an end. sive four-pillars approach to the strategy. That may have been the case. I don't know, but I'm The context in which this facility was opened included getting that information. the issues around overdose deaths, epidemic rates of HIV/ What I do know is this: the efforts that we've under- AIDS, hepatitis C, public disorder in front of the Carnegie taken on primary care have yielded some very, very Community Centre and so on. There was a desperate need, positive results. We haven't particularly done a good job for members of the community, for this health service. with the nurse practitioner portion of that. That's some- [1730] thing we're working on with the Nurse Practitioners The decision to suddenly close down the Health Association, with our head nurse in the ministry and Contact Centre, of course, has tremendous impacts for with staff to figure out how we can better incorporate people in our community, and one would argue that the nurse practitioners into our system and do a better it is shortsighted in terms of public policy. The Health job of taking advantage of the exceptional skills that they Contact Centre was particularly important for low- have and the important role they can play within the income residents during the evening hours, nighttime health care system. hours, when other facilities were closed. The Healthcare Quarterly journal validated some of It has resulted and demonstrated that it has resulted the work we've done with respect to primary care, and I in less emergency room visits and less 911 calls be- do want to point that out. In fact, Dr. Marcus Hollander cause of this service. It helps to connect and provide a undertook a review of some of the initiatives we have place — for women, particularly — for all members of made with the BCMA. He actually followed a cohort the community to access service, to make connections of chronic care illness patients and demonstrated that, to other health care provisions which they might other- actually, the benefits of treating in this way and the up- wise not have access to. This is having huge impacts on front investments we've been making to deal with them the people in the Downtown Eastside. in their community have resulted in a cost benefit of My first question is: could the minister please advise at least 3-to-1, the benefits outweighing the additional this House how much is being funded for the Health costs that we're investing in the enhanced family prac- Contact Centre? In other words, what was the budget tice program with the physicians. The benefits were very allocated for the centre? clear and very compelling. Hon. K. Falcon: I've got staff looking up the budget [H. Bloy in the chair.] amount. I haven't got that right at my fingertips, but staff are looking that up. I'll quote from Healthcare Quarterly into the rec- I do want to comment on the Health Contact Centre, ord: "Family practice in B.C. was in decline in the 1990s. because I do think it is important to address this issue In order to reverse this trend, the Ministry of Health on the record. The member is right that the program Services and the BCMA agreed to collaborate to sup- started, as I understand it, in 2001, but let's not quib- port family physicians in the province." That, I think, ble. It's either 2000 or 2001. It was always started and has been a cooperative relationship that is really start- intended to be a transitional service. What the centre ing to yield results, and that has worked very well with provided was late-afternoon and overnight access to 5838 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

telephones and washrooms as well as basic foot and needed. The other facilities in the community that have wound care to individuals in the Downtown Eastside. lobbied for 24-hour service for a long, long time, for which Now, what has changed since it was opened initially, as they have not received funding from the government, in- I say, as a transitional service, which was supposed to be clude Insite, as one example. in place on a transitional basis until other services could To that end, really becoming a bridge of services in the be put in place permanently…. Those other services have community, especially in those vulnerable hours when been put in place. There are a number of them.C lients can people can't access service, becomes a critical issue for a access available services nearby, including the Downtown marginalized community. So I want to put that back to Community Health Centre, the Pender Community Health the minister for his response in terms of access to ser- Centre, the Vancouver Native Health Walk-in Clinic, the vice related to that. Rainier Hotel for women in the Life Skills Centre. Then, on the question around moneys — $762,000 in I also understand that some of the savings from the total — is the minister saying, as well, that the moneys closing of the Health Contact Centre are being reinvested. allocated for the Health Contact Centre are all being re- For example, an additional $200,000 is being reinvested allocated back into the Downtown Eastside community in the Life Skills Centre, which provides many of the ex- for services in that neighbourhood? act same services as the Health Contact Centre. The other thing that I think is worth pointing out — Hon. K. Falcon: Certainly, we know that even with and this was done after a review by Vancouver Coastal the substantial increases in the budget that are being — is that when they were doing renovations on the provided to Vancouver Coastal Health, they still have Roosevelt Hotel the centre was closed for several months pressures on their budget, as the member well knows. in 2008. What they found interesting is that during the One of the things they are doing is making sure that time it was closed for several months, there was no no- where they have duplicative services or services that no ticeable impact on any of the clientele that was being longer meet their original purpose — or are, frankly, served. I think that is, in large part, due to the fact that having the exact same services being provided else- all of these other services are being provided within a where in the community — then they are ensuring that number of blocks of that area. they are not just keeping a program going. It is a change that reflects the fact that this was ori- Particularly, a transitional program that was originally ginally established as a transitional service. It was never supposed to be a transitional program while the other meant to be a permanent service. In fact, some of the services were put into place — that's not something that news articles I had read about it at the time from com- would just continue to be funded forever. Those dol- munity activists in the area pointed out that it was never lars will all be reinvested back into Vancouver Coastal the right size or the right facility for the services they Health system. There's no question about that. were trying to provide. As I say, a number of those are But this, I think, is exactly one of the things that provided in other facilities in the area. needs to happen. It is difficult, because we do have a ten- Hopefully, now I might have the budget amount for dency to say that once a program starts, you know, it the member. I do. Apparently, the annual cost to operate just continues forever. What Vancouver Coastal learned, the service was $962,000. actually, was that the services being provided there were being provided in a more robust way — much more J. Kwan: The budget for the centre was $962,000. The comprehensive health services than just the minor foot minister said that about $200,000 is being reallocated and wound services that were being provided, and the to another service in the community to enhance ser- free use of telephone and bathrooms on an overnight vices in that facility. That really leaves an outstanding of basis at the Roosevelt Hotel. $762,000. I'm wondering: where has that money gone Many of those same services were being duplicated to, in terms of reallocation of dollars in the community? — in fact, enhanced — in some of the other operations That's one question.I 'm sure the minister's staff will look that I mentioned to the member. That became, appar- for that answer for the minister. ently, quite evident when it was, as I pointed out, closed [1735] down for a number of months as a result of flooding that While they're looking, let me just respond to the min- took place in the hotel. As a result of that, significant in- ister's comments about the centre and its utility, if you vestment had to be made to deal with the flooding issue, will, for the members of the community. I note that it's and there was no noticeable impact whatsoever on the true that there are other services in the community, and clients, according to Vancouver Coastal. That's primar- they're all doing excellent work. There's no doubt about it. ily because there is that whole range of other alternative We're talking about a community that faces a lot of issues services now in the area. and challenges, many of whom are very marginalized. Look, this is, I think, one of the issues that health The hours of operation for these facilities actually vary. authorities have to deal with. They have to look at the ser- Very few, if any, provide 24-hour service, which is critically vices they are providing and determine which services are Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5839

meeting their original objectives. Are they meeting those Denise is the individual who saw the program come into objectives? If they are not, how can they make them meet play. Another woman, Betty-Ann, has been using that those objectives? program for 17 years and all of a sudden has had the rug Is the service already being provided by other service just yanked out from under her. She was told by some providers? If that is the case, then, do they need to dupli- representative from the health authority at one of their cate the service? If so, they may continue to do so, if it program meetings that night that the program is now makes sense. In this case, my understanding is that after lost. the review, they did not feel that that was the best utiliza- Somehow this is supposed to be progress. Somehow, tion of the almost $1 million that they were putting into according to the minister, this is all good for the people. that operation annually. The last I checked, when a program is good for people, that evaluation actually comes from the people, who J. Kwan: I appreciate the minister's high-level an- make that determination. Governments get into doing swer, again, to my question. But I asked a very specific programs and determine…. Programs that are the best question: where did the $762,000 go? And what other ones for the community are the ones that are utilized by service in the Downtown Eastside actually provides 24- the community. That's when programs come into play, hour service? and the people who make them work are the people in [1740] the communities who provide the staffing and the servi- cing of these programs. Hon. K. Falcon: The Life Skills Centre, Member, as At the end of the day — this is what I'm hearing from you know, is receiving an additional $200,000 invest- the minister — this is a program cut. Make no mistake ment. I'm advised that the Life Skills Centre is a much about it. This is a program cut, just like the Broadway larger and better-equipped facility that's better suited to Connections program is a program cut. Somehow the provide access to daily living needs — like showers, bath- government in its own wisdom decided that these are rooms, telephones — and offers a wide array of health, redundant programs. They're duplications, I think he mental health, social service and recreational activities called them. What they really are, are budget cuts for and operates as an emergency shelter overnight. community programs that have been servicing the com- Vancouver Coastal's investment in this facility will munity well, and now the community is left without. pay for increased staffing and additional programming [1745] for an additional 12 hours a day, five days a week. The minister couldn't answer the question around 24-hour operations because — guess what, Mr. Chair — J. Kwan: Yeah. You know, I don't want to belabour the there aren't very many in the Downtown Eastside. This point, because the minister actually didn't answer my is one of them, the Health Contact Centre, and now it is question again. going to close. The only amount of dollars that he cited out of the $962,000 allocated for the Health Contact Centre was Hon. K. Falcon: The Washington Needle Depot, for the $200,000 allocated for the Life Skills Centre. In example, is another 24-hour-a-day operation on East other words, it's a cut in funding for the community of Hastings Street. $762,000, which the government cannot account for, the minister could not account for. J. Kwan: It's a needle exchange. It's not a drop-in program. I know that the minister would actually like to get up and say: "You know what? We've increased the health Hon. K. Falcon: Look, I know that the member oppos- care budget." In the meantime there are programs being ite is wedded to programs and believes that every program cut in the community that are critical to members of the must just stay regardless of what the evidence tells us, re- community. gardless of the usage, regardless of whether it's meeting its We heard earlier today in question period about the original purpose. The member believes that you should Broadway Connections program, impacting people with just continue to fund them ad infinitum — never ask any disabilities. Somehow the government thought that it's questions, never look at what the evidence tells you. okay to cut this $100,000 program that supports people It doesn't matter, when it shuts down for a number with disabilities. It's specifically designed for people of months to have renovations undertaken, that there's with disabilities, so that they can engage in the com- no noticeable impact. It doesn't matter that Vancouver munity, make the connections, build friendships and, as Coastal Health advises that not one client will lose ac- the Mount Pleasant Neighbourhood House people say, cess to core health services. In fact, they've buttressed be part of the Mount Pleasant community family. That's up the services in the Life Skills Centre. But none of that what's happened in that scenario. seems to matter to the member opposite. People who saw the conception of this program come First of all, I will say that there are probably more gov- into play 25 years ago are now seeing that program lost. ernment programs — federal, provincial and local — in 5840 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

the Downtown Eastside than in any other piece of real vices, making sure that that is the priority in their health estate in the country. I think you would be hard-pressed authorities, and I support them in doing that. to find more government services. I don't equate the number of government services and G. Coons: Just one comment for the minister. The programs with results. What we are focusing on are out- Washington Needle Depot is a needle exchange and not a comes and results. We want to make sure that people get drop-in centre. I just wanted to make a comment on that. the kind of care that they deserve, that the services that I have two issues I'd like to bring up with the minister are being provided are meeting not just the needs of the dealing with the north coast. He's heard some concerns people that are working and employed in the facilities about the nurse practitioner in Bella Coola. He's got- but the needs of the population. That is the lens through ten some communications about that. I'm glad he was which I know Vancouver Coastal was looking at the pro- mentioning the exceptional skills and valuable role that gram of the Health Contact Centre. nurse practitioners play. Remember, as I said to the member, it started out in- [1750] itially as a transitional service that was put in place on a In Bella Coola they are losing their nurse practitioner transitional basis. Nine years later that transitional ser- that they've had for two years. It's gone a long ways to vice, which was originally to be a transitional service, is breaking down barriers, improving health care. They as- still operating, in spite of the fact that you've got all of sist members as far as women's health, prenatal youth these other services providing very similar services in health, chronic disease, palliative care, home care. If that neighbourhood. I just think that it's very appropri- it's not continued, there's going to be a huge decrease ate, when the health authority is dealing with pressures, in interdisciplinary care, less consistent chronic disease in spite of the significant budget increase, that they look follow-up and the loss of the holistic nursing focus care at all the programs they're delivering. at the clinic. I will also say that the member talks about a cut. I was there a week and a half ago. I met with the Actually, every dollar is being reinvested back into Nuxalk, and they have real concerns. Charlie Nelson Vancouver Coastal. I understand that their home sup- talks about: "If this nurse practitioner program is dis- port services are going to be buttressed up with some of continued, it's going to be a big step back in our health those dollars. That is an area that is actually experiencing plan, and we're concerned about the services." The increased client demand year over year, and that will go CCRD, the regional district, considers it a vital, essential towards providing very important home support services component for health care in the whole valley. At com- for members of Vancouver Coastal Health Authority. munity meetings I heard the same message. It makes no So every single penny of those dollars, every single sense at all. It's incredibly valuable. It will only increase penny of the savings that are being driven by health au- health care costs. thorities as a result of a number of initiatives they have More important is a letter from the doctors in the underway — which, by the way, that member opposes, region that serve this remote location. "The nurse prac- as do all the NDP just reflexively…. Even the joint pro- titioner program has been an important part of health curement, for example, that they're doing — that has care delivery in the area," they say. "There's a significant saved, thus far, over $115 million by doing something need, and we strongly feel that the benefits are clear-cut. different, that is allowing $115 million now to be put The absence of this program will be felt profoundly in back into front-line care — is a change, and I think that the community." is a very positive change. As usual, the NDP opposes The minister talked about the exceptional skills and those kinds of things too. gave a high-level response about nurse practitioners ear- The fact of the matter is that we have in British lier. It's clear that there's no duplication of services at all Columbia a challenge, as all governments do, where we in the Bella Coola Valley. So I'm just wondering: with are seeing health care expenditures rise 15 percent over the realization that the loss of this nurse practitioner the next three years. That is a very high level of increase. position in the Bella Coola Valley will significantly in- That's over $2 billion in additional dollars going in just crease costs to the ministry and to the minister, will he for operating. It doesn't include the almost $3 billion in immediately work with the Vancouver Coastal Health to capital that will be invested over the next three years. ensure that there's permanent funding for a nurse prac- In spite of that, we know that there is still virtually un- titioner in the valley? limited demand. I don't make any apologies for the fact that all the Hon. K. Falcon: Thank you for the question, Member. health authorities, including Vancouver Coastal, are I recognize the member didn't have the opportunity to be looking at their operations. They're looking at what are in here when we earlier had a discussion around the issue duplicative services. They're looking at how they can of nurse practitioners, but one of the things I acknow- deliver services better. They are making sure that the ledged is that this is an area that I don't think government services they are delivering are direct health care ser- has handled well in terms of properly integrating nurse Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5841

practitioners into the health care system and following My second question is dealing with Northern Health up on the significant dollars we put in to ensure that that and the medical stay units that Northern Health has would happen. Just to reflect back on some earlier com- provided to patients that need to visit Prince Rupert for ments for the benefit of the member. medical services, either from the villages or from Haida What happened was that we established a nurse prac- Gwaii. Just recently, with two weeks' notice, it was de- titioner program in British Columbia. We were the first termined that they are going to cancel the medical stay to do it in the country. We're proud of that. It's essentially units May 31. a master's degree program for registered nurses that can These units are provided to patients at $25 per night allow them to upgrade to a higher level. And then be- — a low cost so patients and their families can come in tween 2005 and 2009 we provided health authorities with to Prince Rupert and stay. Now they've re-evaluated the $62.7 million to incorporate nurse practitioners into the program, due to, I believe, provincial funding, and have system. But to be honest, that's where I think we did not given an accommodation list to people with names of do a good job of making sure that we worked with health hotels or bed-and-breakfasts in Prince Rupert where the authorities to follow and figure out exactly how the nurse costs are going to be 50 percent more — instead of $25, practitioners were going to incorporate themselves into at least $50 per night for the winter rates, or 69 percent the system in a way that met the needs of the system. more with the winter rates. I am aware of the situation the member talks about. I There's considerable concern among some of the believe that actually the United Church delivered ser- mayors. Barry Pages and Carol Kulesha have major con- vices in Bella Coola, funded through the Vancouver cerns about this — again, the lack of consultation and Coastal Health Authority. One thing that I can assure the the enormous cost that's going to be downloaded onto member of is…. I think the community is understand- patients in need of medical care. ably concerned about why this is coming to an end, and I'm just wondering: will the minister work with the short, honest answer is because there wasn't good Northern Health to ensure that the medical stay units thought given to how we could have sustainable funding remain open so at least necessary health care for patients to ensure that these kinds of things could continue, as doesn't skyrocket by 50 to 69 percent for those that need opposed to a grant, which was how these positions were and have medical appointments in Prince Rupert? funded in the past. Obviously, grant funding by a health authority is not the ideal way to ensure that there's going Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for the question. to be a continued service. It is true. This is a program that has operated in Prince [1755] Rupert. It's the only community, I understand, in the en- What I want the member to know is that we are work- tire Northern Health that has a program like this. ing very hard right now with all the health authorities The essence of the program, just for the benefit of to figure out how we are going to link nurse practition- those that are paying attention, is exactly like the mem- ers and other health professionals into helping us better ber talked about, which is that it provided a cheap rate of deliver primary care with a funding model that will be $25 and provided some rooms for those that were coming sustainable, that will ensure that we can keep nurse prac- down to receive medical services. Typically, most of them, titioners practising in places like Bella Coola. probably two-thirds or more, would be mothers that are We are continuing to do the work, Member. I hope preparing for giving birth. that we can have some answers for the member specific Some of this may just be confusion, because what to that case in the coming weeks. I understand is that, actually, the Northern Health Authority is still in discussion with the community about G. Coons: I just want to make a comment before I get this. My understanding is that they've entered into an on to my next situation. In the Bella Coola Valley over arrangement with a number of the hotels — there's at the last couple years, since the nurse practitioners were least ten, I understand — that will provide rooms at that there, there's been a 20 percent reduction in ER visits; a rate, beginning at $25 a night. 50 percent decrease in people with diabetes admitted to The idea,I think, is that through cooperation with the the hospital; and a significant 53 percent drop of people local hotels and motels in the area, they could provide with A1c values, more than eight within the community the exact same service in cooperation with the private — so a significant improvement. sector to deliver those. I understand a number of them Again, as the minister has recognized, the exceptional have rooms available at that $25 level. skills and the valuable role that we play…. A place like I also understand this is a discussion that is still ongoing. Bella Coola does not have the duplication of services I don't believe — and I stand to be corrected — that a final that we find elsewhere, where perhaps services are being decision has been made. They are still talking to the com- cut or slashed — or redefined, as the minister might say. munity and trying to make sure that they're all operating Thank you for that, Minister. I'll let people know that from the same fact base so that they understand what it is you're looking into that. they're actually talking about trying to achieve. 5842 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

My understanding is that those discussions are still The interesting part is that they took time to do quite an continuing. Hopefully, they can be resolved to the satis- analysis on what it costs to go from Smithers to Vancouver faction of the communities. to see a specialist. The minister, I'm sure, is aware that [1800] Northern Health has decided on an option of providing a discounted bus service for those kinds of visits. G. Coons: Just a follow-up question with the minister. This couple — and I can provide this analysis to the Yes, the letter came out saying May 31, but due to some minister and to his staff — looked at the cost of taking of the concerns, the administrator is going to be travel- that bus to Vancouver from Smithers versus flying. The ling to Haida Gwaii to do some more consultation. We'll minister likely knows this, but many people do not see what develops from that. perhaps know that the bus service going from Smithers But yes, the accommodation list…. They have worked to Vancouver requires overnight stays because of the with them, and the cheapest room is $45 plus tax, in- scheduling in places like Prince George — two nights, in stead of the $25 per night. So with tax, it'll be doubled fact. Then, because of the scheduling, it also requires to over $50, as I said. It would be 50 percent increase, additional overnight stays in Vancouver. and a 69 percent increase in the winter months, unless So they looked at this. The average figure for travel they wanted to go to a dorm room at the Black Rooster, expenses by flying…. This involves some overnight -ac where it is $25 a night. I don't think, if you're coming in commodation, but by the flights out of Smithers, you on medical, that you want to be in a dorm situation and can also get a specialist appointment and fly back in the meeting that $25. same day. Their analysis included some overnight. The That would be the only available accommodation average figure for travel expenses flying was $700, and out of the 15 or 20 that they have given to people. I will the Northern Health bus was $790. This is out-of-pocket make this available for the minister. expenses, of course. What they conclude from this is that it would seem — Hon. K. Falcon: Certainly, I will follow up on some of with the costs incurred by Northern Health to run the the details, because I was led to understand that they've bus, as well, in this — that it would be less costly for made arrangements with at least ten motels that would Northern Health and certainly for the patient if air travel offer that $25 rate.I f that is not the case, then I certainly was subsidized, as is ferry travel, at least by 80 percent. would be interested in clarifying that. [1805] I thank the member for the question, and I look for- They haven't seemed to be able to get anywhere with ward to following up with Northern Health. Northern Health on this issue, and they point out that there is a lack of ridership, in their experience, on the D. Donaldson: I have a question for the minister that bus from Smithers to Prince George. also deals with travel and travel costs. I had a situation What they're looking at here is that Northern Health where a couple of residents of Smithers came into my of- has spent $4 million for medical transportation, and a fice to provide me with an analysis around travel costs, and lot of that is on a contract to provide the bus and service I'll share that analysis with the minister. They happened that I discussed. However, in their analysis, as I say, it's to be seniors, and although it's a specific case, I think the less costly for a person to fly, and if Northern Health example applies quite broadly throughout the Northern was not using that bus route, perhaps they could subsid- Health area, especially in Stikine. It's in relation to this ize the flight even further. Again, I said I'll provide this budget vote that we're discussing. analysis that this couple has done. They've put a lot of The analysis that they provided was around the high work into it. cost of accessing specialized medical services, around The question is: would the minister commit to inves- travel. I'm going to quote from the presentation they tigating this analysis, and would he address this issue gave me. with Northern Health as a potential positive travel solution They say: "While it is inevitable and necessary for for residents in places like Smithers and the Hazeltons as many specialized services to be centralized in major well? populations centres" — that's their view — "however, [1810] it is neither reasonable nor inevitable that it should be prohibitively expensive for people who live in remote Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for the question. areas to access such centralized services." It took a little bit of time because there are a number They go on to say: "Our acceptance of the necessity to of programs we're very proud of that try and address centralize some medical services also requires accept- that. The member has touched on one of them, of course, ance by the health care system of the necessity to provide which is the northern connections bus program that we access to those services for rural and remote citizens at launched in 2006. a cost in time and money close to that for those in our For the benefit of members who may not be familiar major centres." with this, it utilizes customized, wheelchair-accessible, Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5843

48-passenger coaches and 20-passenger buses that are We're also increasingly using video conferencing and equipped with numerous amenities — including DVD play- telehealth to provide more opportunities for people to ers, satellite radio and wheelchair-accessible washrooms receive consults, for example, through video conferen- — to try and make the trip as comfortable as possible. cing, which obviates the need to have them travel all the Most of what I've heard back with respect to the way to the Lower Mainland, in some cases, when that's northern connections bus program has certainly been required. It provides, again, another opportunity to pro- quite positive. I think if the member…. Part of what I vide more services, better services, to folks in northern heard him asking or suggesting was that he thought that British Columbia and rural B.C. there could be cheaper ways to provide flight services — The suggestion from the member that the member did I get that basically right? — instead of bus services. may, indeed, have other ideas, that it could even be I think that if the member has suggestions in that re- cost-effective…. I know that would certainly be, I think, gard, he should definitely take those to Northern Health. welcomed and listened to with great interest by the very I actually think they would be interested in hearing about capable folks in Northern Health. that because I know they, through these kinds of pro- grams, are certainly doing their best to try and address D. Donaldson: Thank you for that answer, to the the unique situation that folks in rural B.C. have. minister, and to the staff, thank you for the work you do It doesn't stop there. In addition to the northern con- to provide the information that the minister uses. nections bus program, we've also been investing…. Now I'd like to point out that…. This is from the couple I just lost one of the other pieces of paper here that talked that came in, and the people they talked to. The bus ser- about the specialists program that we have. I apologize, vice has always been contentious, they've said. The buses Member. I can't find it. are not set up for long-distance travel. They have insuffi- It is a program where we pay the travel costs and a cient legroom between rows, fairly hard seats, do not premium to encourage specialists to come to the north recline sufficiently, and it's impossible as is to access the and visit rural-remote communities to be able to bring washroom without stopping the bus. that service from the Lower Mainland up into northern Those are the kinds of concerns that I will bring up B.C. It is called the northern and isolation travel assist- with Northern Health. But what I'm asking the minister ance outreach program. is on the bigger picture around this analysis that they In the most recent year of which I have information have done on air travel being actually less costly to the available, we invested over $3½ million to provide over user than the bus service. 2,600 visits. Again, it is bringing that specialist service The question I had is: would the minister investigate up into northern British Columbia to provide the sup- this analysis and address it with Northern Health? This ports that those folks deserve. couple, on behalf of many, has tried to do that and has It goes beyond that, even. I had the real pleasure, back not gotten anywhere. It seems like possibly a poten- in mid-April with the Premier, to announce a new B.C. tially positive solution. Would the minister, in his role family residence program. The member may not be as being where the buck stops when it comes to health familiar with this one because it's a new one. Essentially, authorities, investigate it on behalf of these constituents this will provide subsidies for a family's travel and ac- and on behalf of rural people in B.C.? commodation whenever they have a child that requires care at B.C. Children's Hospital, and B.C. Children's Hon. K. Falcon: I'm sorry to hear that the services — Hospital, as we all know, is a world-renowned facility all of which I've just listed and all of which have come that treats children from right across the province of about in the term of our government — have not appar- British Columbia. ently met the satisfaction of this couple. I do think it is With this program, we have provided $13 million, a challenge, sometimes, to meet every member of the just in this year's budget, to provide for these travel and public's need and belief that the system must provide accommodation programs. We're doing that in cooper- a level of service that, I have to respectfully say, some- ation with Hope Air and the Shriners. We are really very, times is not entirely reasonable. very excited about that program because that makes a Now I am not, nor would I, to be honest, reviewing real difference in the lives of families and can provide directly the idea they have. I do think that if they think accommodation for up to 30-day stays. they have a good idea, they should share it with Northern [1815] Health. If they don't think they've gotten a fair hearing from In addition to that, though, as the member well Northern Health, certainly the member can bring a copy of knows, we also are increasingly investing in the kinds of that to our office, and I can have staff take a look at it. facilities, whether it's the northern cancer strategy that But I do, I think, have to say — I've said this before, not only is investing $100 million in a new northern and I say this to the public, but I think it bears repeating state-of-the-art cancer centre in Prince George but also in this context — that we cannot pretend as a health sys- outreach facilities in different communities…. tem to try to be all things to all people all the time at no 5844 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

cost. I think we have to be at least honest with the public Hon. K. Falcon: The answer is yes. We do, under this about that. reciprocal agreement, have an arrangement whereby I have just enunciated a number of programs in which if a service is provided in either province to a citizen there's been an investment of literally over…. Well, just from those provinces in the other provinces, that ser- on the ones that I mentioned, investments of tens of vice will be provided, and the bill is then submitted to millions of dollars to try and deal with these exact chal- the respective province of which the citizen originally lenges. I think these are programs that by and large…. patriated from. What I have heard is some pretty positive feedback. While I always respect and understand that people would M. Sather: Could the minister then tell me what sort like to see government do even more, I do think we have to of services to somebody that was hospitalized in Alberta reflect on the fact that even with the massive double-digit from British Columbia on an emergency basis…? What increases in the health care budget over the next few years kinds of services are covered, then, for them? that we're providing, there is a context. The context is that we are in a world economy that is still very, very shaky. Hon. K. Falcon: Those would be the usual medically [1820] necessary services one would expect: the hospital services, We are starting to see some signs of recovery, but I the physician services and including, of course, diagnostics think that the very fact that our government has been that may be required as part of those physician services. able to announce, implement and move forward with all of these travel assistance programs and all of these M. Sather: I bring this up because it was brought to programs which go directly to try to meet the needs of my attention by one of my constituents. I can't give the folks that live in rural British Columbia is a pretty sub- minister the specifics of this person because we haven't stantial step forward. None of them existed a mere ten been able to contact her lately. Apparently, she is back years ago, and all of the costs and all of the burden was, in hospital. unfortunately, on the backs of individuals from rural [1825] British Columbia. Her experience was that she was hospitalized in I do think it is progress. I don't pretend it will be Vancouver — she's from Maple Ridge — but the capacity perfect for every individual out there, but I would wasn't there to give her the emergent cancer-related sur- respectfully suggest that the couple the member is refer- gery that she required, so B.C. Bedline arranged a flight encing should try and put that information together as for her to Edmonton, apparently on a Learjet. When she best they can and present it to Northern Health and try arrived there, she had a fairly lengthy stay, quite a long and outline where they believe the benefit and the sav- recuperative period, and as not a woman with a lot of ings are involved. financial means she ended up having to pay a number As I say, if they can't feel that they get a fair hearing, of things, including her prescriptions. That was $147. then certainly, I'll have staff take a look at it to make sure ThenE nsure, which is a supplement the minister may be that a good idea is not being overlooked. aware of for people who require that kind of thing, was another $204. M. Sather: I wanted to ask the minister about the More significantly, though, after she came out of out-of-province, within-Canada medical care program. surgery, and she had a fairly long stay in the hospital, Reading from material provided by government, it says: she had to pay as an out-patient after she left intensive "All insured medical services obtained by MSP bene- care, although she was still in the hospital, and that was ficiaries from a physician licensed to practise medicine around $625. These were out-of-pocket expenses, which in the province where the services are obtained will be surprised me in the first place. I thought it would be covered at the appropriate provincial rates without prior more like the minister was saying — that the practi- approval by MSP unless otherwise stipulated by a re- tioner there or the hospital would incur the costs and ciprocal agreement with another province or territory then bill us. But these were out-of-pocket expenses. Is within Canada." that the normal, typical way that things are done, then? My question is: with regard to Alberta, do we have one of those reciprocal agreements? Hon. K. Falcon: Prefacing my remarks by first of all emphasizing that it's difficult without having the exact Hon. K. Falcon: Yes. details…. The member points out why that wasn't pos- sible for him to have those details. I certainly respect M. Sather: Does that agreement then stipulate that that, but it is a bit of a challenge. the aforementioned medical services would be covered What I can say, though, in principle, is that if the in- at the appropriate provincial rate then? Does that re- dividual or an individual received the drugs as a result ciprocal agreement negate that, or what effect does the of her in-patient treatment in the hospital, of course that ministry's reciprocal agreement have? would have been covered. But if the individual has been Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5845

discharged by the hospital, then yes, the prescription thought that return transport would be included. I'd ask drugs would be the responsibility of the patient. That is the minister, then — in a general sense, if he doesn't ne- no different than what would be the case here in British cessarily want to talk about this particular issue: is that Columbia too. the way it works? Can somebody be sent to Alberta by When you're in the hospital receiving care, the pre- a government-commissioned airplane and then be left scription drugs are part of the care that you receive. But to their own devices to get themselves back home once once you're discharged from the hospital, you have a they get out of the hospital? responsibility, of course, to purchase your own drugs to provide ongoing maintenance, or whatever, of your Hon. K. Falcon: I guess, two things. Under the re- particular malady. Of course, we've got a PharmaCare ciprocal agreement, if the individual was receiving system that will cover drugs, depending on income and in-patient hospital care, then that would have been cov- all the rest of it. ered. That should have been covered. If that is not the case, we'd certainly be interested in hearing that. But M. Sather: Thanks to the minister for his answer that would certainly be unusual to the extreme. there. I wanted to also focus on the accommodation, the In terms of the travel question, the member pointed out medical accommodation that she had to pay. She had correctly that the individual was flown byL earjet to Alberta to pay as an out-patient, but she was still in the hospital to receive whatever specialized services were necessary to — again, out-of-pocket expenses. Is that not recoverable, be received. It is true that upon discharge the return airfare or how does that part work? is not paid for by taxpayers. This is fairly common, even in British Columbia, as the member well knows. Hon. K. Falcon: I do think this is probably something If you are someone from northern British Columbia we'll have to get the details of. You can't be an out-patient and are required to be flown down on some sort of a and be an in-patient at the same time, so I'm not really medical emergency to receive treatment in the Lower sure I'm understanding, nor are my staff understanding Mainland and are able to be discharged and don't require what exactly happened here. medical transport back to your home, then you are also I think that maybe the best thing to do, if I could, responsible for paying your own way or finding a way Member…. If you can contact the family of the individ- of getting back home. That has been the case in British ual, even if the individual is hospitalized, and try and Columbia for many, many years. get the specifics of the case, then it would probably be Now, the member probably wasn't here for our pre- a lot easier for me to provide…. I can provide written vious discussion that we just had around the issue of answers, too, if the member wishes, to address the par- trying to recognize that there are unique circumstances ticulars of the case. to folks in rural British Columbia that we have tried to address through a number of programs — the northern M. Sather: Well, the thing is that we have talked at connections bus program, the new children and family length. I've spoken to her, and she's now hospitalized, so program that will look after the accommodation and I can't. Her parents are elderly, and I mean quite elderly, flight costs for individuals whose children from rural or so they're not a really good source of information. But remote communities are required to receive care at B.C. these are the facts as she's relayed them to me. I did Children's Hospital for up to 30 days. That's a $13 mil- contact medical authorities to try to help her get reim- lion program we just announced. bursement. This is ongoing over a month now, and she There is no program to cover off a situation like the hasn't received anything that I'm aware of. member has mentioned, whether someone has come [1830] from northern British Columbia to the Lower Mainland What was even more shocking to me, though — and or whether someone has been flown to Edmonton to re- it's very clear from what she told me, unless she wasn't ceive specialized care, upon discharge. telling me the truth, but I have no reason to believe that — was that she was in the hospital and that she was D. Thorne: I have just one question. charged for medical accommodations. In addition to that, when she was discharged, there Interjections. was no travel paid back to Vancouver. She had to pay for a WestJet ticket herself. She was fortunate that family The Chair: Please continue, Member. members came through, or she would have been hitch- hiking back to the Lower Mainland. That was $218 for D. Thorne: I wanted to ask one question, as I just said, WestJet and altogether some $1,330. but I'm referring to a number of different programs that I don't understand how this could happen. It seems have lost their funding through Fraser Health in the Tri- to me that if you send a patient to Alberta — she didn't Cities area — one in particular. I'm sure that the minister ask to go there; the doctor sent her there — I would have and his staff are very aware of these programs. 5846 British Columbia Debates Wednesday, May 26, 2010

There were several programs last year — the adult gram to replace Chimo. In fact, at the end of our attempts survivors of abuse program at the Tri-City Women's to save this program, the ministry…. Or I shouldn't say Resource Centre and the SHARE Changeways program the ministry, because it would be Fraser Health that ac- — where funding was cut. I know I have talked to people tually came back and said in writing that one of the main in the ministry about these cuts. reasons that this program was closing was because it was [1835] a unique program. There was no other program like it in Some of them are now being done sort of by people other parts of the Fraser Health region and, therefore, it in another part of the health system, even though I and wasn't fair to other parts of the region. many others are quite alarmed at that because we don't I'm at the point where I don't know if it was closed believe the service can be as good as a singular service to save $160,000 a year or if it was closed because it was that's provided at an agency. I can understand how you a unique, wonderful program and everybody else was save money, costs, when you combine a program with jealous. Both of those reasons were given many times another program that's already working. So these two by different numbers of people and different people at programs — I have checked into those. Fraser Health. Now, since those programs, we have lost what I con- The question thatI want to ask — and I'm sure you're sider to be a couple of other very important programs wondering if I'm ever going to get to the question — is in the Tri-Cities. One is the Community Volunteer when these decisions are made…. I should say, perhaps, Services society which was an agency for seniors, an out- after these decisions are made, is there ever any attempt reach program for isolated, homebound seniors. When mandated from the ministry to the health authority that program funding runs out, I think it's at the end of that some kind of a study is done to see if, in fact, we May or the end of June, there won't be another service have saved $160,000 on the Chimo program? Let's use to take the place of that particular service. So that's kind that one for an example because it's the one that's most of alarming, especially since it was a very, very cheap fresh in my mind, if not anybody else's. Are we saving program run by volunteers. I just don't know how the $160,000? community of isolated seniors that it served is going to [1840] adjust to that program. I just want to give you one example with Chimo. Then, of course, we have the combining of the Elizabeth is one of the clients, and some of you may even crisis lines in Mission, the Tri-Cities and Surrey, with be familiar with her name. She's a client with a trach- Surrey taking over. I'm sure that Options and Surrey eotomy, and after she enrolled in the Chimo program, Community Services will do a fine job with the crisis approximately three years ago, she no longer had fre- line. However, the loss of the volunteers in Coquitlam — quent visitations to the Royal Columbian Hospital and I just wanted to put that on the record — has been quite saved, I would think, probably hundreds of thousands of a blow to the crisis line program because these people dollars for the health authority by the mere fact that she are not, in very large numbers in any case, going across was no longer being admitted to the Royal Columbian the bridge to Surrey so far. Hospital frequently — a couple of times, two or three I, along with others in the community, am quite con- times, a year. cerned about how that will affect the crisis line in the The Chimo closed its doors a couple of months ago. end. Will we be able to continue providing the same Elizabeth has already been back into the Royal Columbian service for the north Fraser and the south Fraser with for an extended stay. I do believe, from what I have heard volunteers and not end up spending money that we from other people — ex-patients or ex-clients of Chimo haven't spent on it? — that she nearly lost her life. She is now at home and Melissa Park Lodge was a mental health housing fa- may, in fact, be back in the hospital any time. cility. People have been moved from there, and some of I would think, knowing the costs of people who stay in those moves have been more successful than others. hospital — the day costs, approximately — that we've al- I just wanted to finally come to the program that of ready spent far more on Elizabeth, just one of 45 clients all of these programs has most alarmed the community of Chimo…. We've already spent more than $160,000 in and which has received a lot of attention in the media the Fraser Health Authority. and in the House because several of us have brought it I want to know how we track the savings on these pro- up. That's the Chimo Achievement Centre. I know that grams that we cut. How do the people in the Tri-Cities, everybody sitting on the other side is very aware of the Maple Ridge, New Westminster, Burnaby — all people Chimo Achievement Centre, which is a local, thera- who have clients in the Chimo program…. How can we peutic day program for adults. be assured that we are saving $160,000 a year overall in We, myself and people from the centre and people the Fraser Health Authority by shutting down Chimo? from the community, have tried for six months to save I mean, perhaps that's a difficult question.I t seems so that program, mainly because not only is it important to simple to me. If we're not saving the $160,000, which is keep the clients independent, but there is no other pro- nothing — it's such a small, paltry amount of money — Wednesday, May 26, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5847 why would we close a program like Chimo? And how My understanding is that as a result of the work that are we tracking the savings? That's my question. was done, three of the clients moved to residential care. Apparently, those three clients would have moved to Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for that question. residential care in a very short time, whether or not the It's always great to have a good long lengthy one just as Chimo program continued. Four clients were referred we're getting close to wrapping up and the minister is at to the Fraser Health adult day programs at Queen's Park the end of a long series of interactions. This is testing me, and Hawthorne Care Centre. Seventeen clients were isn't it? This is all about testing the minister. So thank referred to other community recreation programs, such you, Member, for the question. as the Dogwood Pavilion and Glen Pine's recreational First of all, a bit of context for those that are listening facility programs. They're city recreational centre programs to our discussion and debate this afternoon. The Fraser and programs that are run by non-profits. Three clients, Health Authority was one of the health authorities that I understand, opted to attend the private Lakeshore day received substantial budget increases over the next few program. years. In spite of that substantial increase, the member Is that a perfect situation? It probably isn't. I don't would well know that they still had cost pressures. for a second want to take away from the fact that the In fact, last year their cost pressure was, if my memory services they provided there were probably very good serves me correct, about $160 million — meaning that services. But the truth is that both in the case of Chimo even with budget increases, they were still facing cost and in the case of the crisis line consolidation, which pressures that, if they continued to do things exactly makes imminent sense, by the way …. the same way as they had done or didn't look at how Rather than funding multiple crisis lines in every they were delivering services and whether those services community, what they actually said is: "Let's have an were direct health care services that should be the priority RFP that says we will have one crisis line that everyone for our health authorities, then indeed, they would have can call, that all volunteers will be welcome at, and we been facing a very serious deficit situation. will do that in a manner that respects that we don't have As a result of that, they reviewed a number of their unlimited taxpayer dollars." And that's what they did. programs. I should say Chimo was one of them, and the TheO ptions Society I happen to know well. It has pro- member has mentioned Chimo. vided, and continues to provide, a number of services in Because they are no longer able to continue funding Surrey in particular that are exceptional, and I have no the program as it is does not in any way suggest that the doubt they will do a very good job. program being delivered was not a good program. The In conclusion — because I know, Chair, I'm getting Chimo program was a leisure day program for adults the look — what I will say is simply this. All of these are that was operated by the Kiwanis society. It did provide very difficult decisions for a health authority like Fraser some important socialization activities and services to Health. They have a challenge to make sure that they the members that were participants. I understand there focus on core medical services, that they recognize there were, I think, 25 participants in the program. are not unlimited dollars available by taxpayers to fund [1845] every conceivable service. I think they tried very hard What Fraser Health did was recognize that though and were successful in meeting the budget pressures they the programs that were being provided were important faced and are continuing to provide services in the best — what are described as social leisure programs — they and most responsible method they can. did not focus on the kind of core home health services or medical supports that Fraser Health was wanting to The Chair: Seeing no further questions, I'll call make sure they prioritized their dollars towards. Those Vote…. are programs like bath programs, wound care, blood Member for Vancouver-Kingsway. pressure checks, fall prevention programs, caregiver res- pite programs, etc. A. Dix: Hon. Chair, it's kind of you to say, but actually, Recognizing that their discontinuation of the $165,000 we're discussing this tomorrow. So I was going to suggest in funding was going to have an impact on people that that we move that the House rise and report progress enjoyed the leisure programs that were provided, I know and ask leave to sit again. that they tried to work very carefully with all of the par- ticipants in the programs and their families to have them Motion approved. have opportunities to relocate to other programs in the community. The committee rose at 6:49 p.m.

Hansard Services

Director Jo-Anne Kern

Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland

Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk

Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson

Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright

Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr

Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser

Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger

Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.

Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]

Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $398. GST extra.

www.leg.bc.ca

Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.