First Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Th ursday, July 18, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 3, Number 7

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

First Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Juan de Fuca ...... Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Claire Trevena Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Parksville-Qualicum ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River North ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River South ...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Penticton...... Dan Ashton McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond-Steveston ...... Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Skeena ...... Robin Austin Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver–False Creek ...... Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Vacant ...... Westside-Kelowna Westside-Kelowna ...... Vacant

Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS

Th ursday, July 18, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members ...... 721

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 721 Parks system and proposed national park in South Okanagan area S. Chandra Herbert Paralympic world championships and participation by Parksville-Qualicum MLA E. Foster School closings in south Nanaimo area D. Routley Lindsey Babineau and school fruit and vegetable snack program D. Plecas Refugee experience of Mohammed Jawara R. Chouhan Symphony in the Park event and piano accomplishments of Avan Yu R. Lee

Oral Questions ...... 724 Implementation of multicultural outreach strategy A. Dix Hon. T. Wat Multicultural outreach strategy investigation and e-mail from former Multiculturalism Minister J. Kwan Hon. T. Wat Hon. A. Wilkinson S. Simpson Alberta residency requirements for oil and gas companies V. Huntington Hon. T. Wat Call for independent investigation into multicultural outreach strategy B. Ralston Hon. A. Wilkinson Attorney General response to multicultural outreach strategy issues L. Krog Hon. A. Wilkinson

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...... 728 J. Horgan

Tabling Documents ...... 728 Labour Relations Board, annual report, 2012 WorkSafe B.C., annual report, 2012

Petitions ...... 728 D. Routley

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...... 728 N. Macdonald

Petitions ...... 728 D. Routley Orders of the Day

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...... 728 B. Ralston

Committee of Supply ...... 728 Estimates: Offi ce of the Premier (continued) A. Dix Hon. R. Coleman J. Kwan B. Ralston

Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 751 Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right) ...... 751 S. Robinson

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 751 Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure (continued) C. Trevena Hon. T. Stone G. Heyman B. Ralston S. Robinson M. Karagianis D. Eby K. Corrigan L. Popham S. Fraser D. Donaldson S. Chandra Herbert

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply ...... 768 Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued) Hon. P. Fassbender R. Fleming S. Chandra Herbert D. Routley V. Huntington H. Bains J. Kwan D. Eby A. Weaver M. Farnworth

Committee of the Whole House ...... 788 Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013 M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong 721

THURSDAY, JULY 18, 2013 tial school closures in the south end of Nanaimo, in the Cedar and Wellington communities: Olivia and Kathie Th e House met at 1:33 p.m. Aarsen; Andrea Bonkowski, a former school trustee in Nanaimo, and her husband, David; Steven Bowen; [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Coleen Burke; Sheilagh Gourlay; Garry Hein; Scott Kimler; Alec McPherson, the Nanaimo regional area dir- Routine Business ector for the community; Caeleigh and Tiff any Nelson; Steve and Melodie Rae; Madeline and Debra Shred; Lloyd Introductions by Members and Delaney St. Cyr; and Peter Yoon. Can the House please help me welcome these folks to Victoria. Hon. A. Wilkinson: In the gallery today we're joined by Brenda and Brian Harrott, who are from Kelowna L. Reimer: I'm pleased to announce that today is the and are friends of my chief of staff . We were all fortun- birthday of my wonderful brother Bob Chambers. Would ate enough to attend the wedding of my chief of staff and the House please join me in wishing him a very happy his new bride, Sophie, two weeks ago in Kelowna. Would birthday. the House please welcome them. D. Eby: Joining us today in the gallery are representa- J. Horgan: Joining us in the gallery today is someone tives of the Alliance of B.C. Students, who represent over who has been shadowing me for the morning and into 180,000 British Columbia students in post-secondary in- the aft ernoon. He's a young man from Langford in my stitutions. I know they've been having a lot of productive constituency, Ravi Parmar. He will be known, I'm sure, conversations with my colleague on the other side of the to the Minister of Education. House, and I wanted to ask the House to join me in wel- It was Ravi who led a walkout of students at Belmont coming them here today. high school a year ago that led to George Abbott having to sit down with him for half an hour. Now, thanks to the Hon. A. Wilkinson: Each year since 1903 British good work of the Ministry of Education, we will have a Columbia has selected a Rhodes Scholar to attend Oxford new high school in Langford, and it's all as a result of Ravi University for further education. Th at's from a period Parmar. Would the House make him welcome. more than a decade before these buildings came into use. I'm pleased to announce that this year's 2013 Rhodes Hon. T. Wat: Today, alongside the Speaker, the Scholar for British Columbia, Ms. Tara Paterson, is here Minister of Jobs and the Minister of Social Development, in the gallery. I must note that she is politically active. I'm I had the pleasure of having lunch with representatives trying to convince her that there are other ways to see the from Richmond Centre for Disability. world than the one she currently sees it through. Whether Joining us today in the House and in the gallery are I'm successful or not, I am hopeful, and I anticipate that Vince Miele, the board chair; Tom Parker, the board we will see her in this House one day. vice-chair; Angela Gauld, board member at large; Shirley Liang, board member at large; and Eileen and Peter D. Plecas: I have two guests in the gallery I would like Kalshoven. Would the House please join me in giving to welcome today. One is Geri Bemister, who is a profes- them the most warm welcome. sor at North Island College and one of the most inspir- ing people I know, and my youngest son Sean, who's a V. Huntington: I'm extremely pleased to welcome to university student. I'm fond of telling him that he can do the precinct today Peg, Eric and Nick Keenleyside, who anything he wants with his life aft er he gets a PhD. are residents of Delta South and wonderful supporters of mine. Will the House make them welcome. Statements [1335] (Standing Order 25B)

D. Horne: Joining us in the members' gallery this aft er- PARKS SYSTEM AND PROPOSED NATIONAL noon is His Excellency Ali Al-Sammak, the Ambassador PARK IN SOUTH OKANAGAN AREA for the State of Kuwait to Canada. Th e ambassador is here on his fi rst offi cial visit to British Columbia and will be S. Chandra Herbert: Th is Saturday, July 20, people meeting with the Lieutenant-Governor at Government from across British Columbia and, indeed, across Canada House this aft ernoon. Would this House please make will be celebrating Canada's Parks Day. him feel welcome. As members will know, B.C.'s fi rst provincial park was Strathcona Park, established in 1911. At the time, MLAs D. Routley: I've invited several guests to the House spoke in the Legislature about how it would open up today. They're parents and people affected by poten- British Columbia to tourism and bring untold millions 722 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

into the provincial treasury. Well, Strathcona Park and, Committee 2013 Athletics World Championships, which indeed, the over 800 parks that have come since have start tomorrow. done that and more. It is a vision of the IPC to enable Paralympic athletes I fondly remember my dad taking me and my broth- to achieve sporting excellence and to inspire and excite er on our fi rst back-country camping trip to Strathcona. the world. We are fortunate to have one of those world- Th e wonder of nature seemed to stretch on into infi nity, class and inspirational athletes with us today, and that and the mischievous whisky jacks were just a lot of fun. is our member for Parksville-Qualicum. Our colleague It helped grow a desire in me to stand up for our environ- exemplifi es the potential for greatness and has inspired ment for generations to come. Canadians, young and old, to dream and achieve excel- Parks play that role for so many and have inspired lence. countless British Columbians to improve our parks I hope everyone will join me in wishing all of Canada's by giving back. Th ey deserve our thanks and support athletes, especially our colleague from Parksville- through investing in the park system. Qualicum, our best as they represent our country at the Parks also play a vital role in maintaining healthy IPC Athletics World Championships. and resilient ecosystems and protecting critical habi- We'll be cheering you on. tat for species at risk. But there's an area in B.C. which I know that the member for Parksville-Qualicum and still needs more work done. I'm speaking of the South the entire Canadian team will do our country proud. Okanagan and the proposed national park. Th is area of unique beauty and rare ecosystems is home to 58 spe- SCHOOL CLOSINGS IN cies at risk, one-third of B.C.'s total. Unfortunately, the SOUTH NANAIMO AREA fragile grasslands of the South Okanagan are in danger of being lost. D. Routley: The south end of Nanaimo, including [1340] Cedar and South Wellington, are deeply rooted and his- As we celebrate Parks Day, I'd encourage us all to look torical communities. Th ey are welcoming to newcomers at the growing support for this creation of a national park, and still the home of pioneer families. Th ey are the trad- to consider the economic and conservation benefi ts that itional territories of the Snuneymuxw and Chemainus it could deliver and to start talking with the government First Nations. of Canada and local First Nations once again. Th e soul of a community is an aggregate of its history Th e Okanagan Nation Alliance, the regional district and its present, its people and its institutions. Th ere is of Okanagan-Similkameen, the Th ompson-Okanagan perhaps nothing more important to the binding of the Tourism Association, numerous town councils, cham- past, present and future of a community than its schools. bers of commerce and more all recognize the value this In south Nanaimo recent plans by the school district, park could bring to British Columbia. I hope this House driven by defi cits in resources, called for the closure of will as well. several schools. Th ese are excellent schools that produce great results. Th e First Nations students and their fam- PARALYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS ilies bring cultural vibrancy. AND PARTICIPATION BY The Cedar Community Secondary School is the PARKSVILLE-QUALICUM MLA sixth most improved secondary school in B.C. South Wellington, the pride of its community and staff ; North E. Foster: Wilma Rudolph, a legendary American Cedar; Woodbank — all of these schools are home to Olympic track and fi eld champion from the 1950s and many First Nations students. Th eir leader, Chief Douglas '60s, said we should "never underestimate the power of White, complains that despite the contribution to the dis- dreams and the infl uence of the human spirit. We are all trict of over $1 million in educational funds, his nation the same in this notion. Th e potential for greatness lives has not been adequately consulted. within each of us." Th ere are consequences to school closures that go well Th ese words ring true, especially for all of those who beyond the immediate educational costs. Do retail busi- participate in sports, be it for fun or competition. I think nesses look for a community closing its schools to locate it is safe to say that all of us, at least at one point in our their operations? Do realtors brag to prospective buyers lives, have dreamt of becoming a world-class athlete and that this community is closing its schools? Do local so- reaching that sports pinnacle by winning a championship cial groups and sports teams benefi t from the closure of or representing one's country internationally. the facilities they depend on? Dreams drive and motivate us. We should encourage How will students participate in extracurricular sports and applaud those who strive to achieve them. Th irty- and other school activities when they must queue up for fi ve Canadians will join 1,100 other athletes from near- a long bus ride? How do parents participate in the class- ly 100 countries in Lyons, France, to live their dream room and school from long distance? and achieve greatness at the International Paralympic Th ese are not trivial issues that are lost in the chess Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 723

piece movements of assets in such educational plans that REFUGEE EXPERIENCE OF fail to recognize the values of the community. I am call- MOHAMMED JAWARA ing on the provincial government to respond to south Nanaimo's communities, families and voters. Hear us. R. Chouhan: Last Friday I had the opportunity to meet Help us by appointing an adviser and necessary resources with Mohammed Jawara, a young man from Liberia who has written a short book about his traumatic experien- that can help the district, First Nations and the commun- ces in the refugee camps in Africa. He was only 12 when ity arrive at a solution that better suits them. his mother, uncle and aunt were killed by the Liberian rebel soldiers. Mohammed, along with his sister and two Madame Speaker: Member, you heard the direction I brothers, escaped the attack and fl ed to a refugee camp provided in the chamber days earlier. I'd ask you to take in Sierra Leone. it into account. Shortly aft er their arrival the Liberian rebel soldiers at- [1345] tacked the refugee camp, slaughtering and raping — in- cluding pregnant women. Th is attack left over a thousand LINDSEY BABINEAU AND people dead in and around the refugee camp. Jawara's SCHOOL FRUIT AND VEGETABLE brother lost his arm, but they were able to get out and fl ed SNACK PROGRAM to Guinea. Aft er a couple of years living in Guinea, they applied for refugee status and were accepted to Canada. D. Plecas: We've heard a lot recently in this House Mohammed, now 26, lives with his siblings in Burnaby- about food, local purchasing and the benefi ts of B.C. Edmonds's Hillside Gardens, a subsidized housing com- agriculture, so I thought it would be good to bring to plex with many more refugee and immigrant families the attention of the House a remarkable Abbotsford resi- who share similar stories of struggle. To help him cope with the trauma he experienced, Mohammed was en- dent, Lindsey Babineau. Lindsey was a schoolteacher couraged by adult education teachers to write his story. who, 15 years ago, established the B.C. Agriculture in the With perseverance, he self-published a short book titled Classroom Foundation. She did this out of a concern for Th e Tears of the Innocent and the Bloodshed, which came what she saw students eating and a belief that there was out in March. a need to teach students more about healthy living and Although it was a painful process for him to write this B.C. agriculture. book, he felt it was important to share his story to inspire At fi rst, her focus was just on providing information. hope in others and to encourage the community to work Ultimately, that changed. In 2005 she actually started together to help refugees become successful citizens in delivering fruits and vegetable snacks to students in ten their community. schools. Ultimately, that resulted in the government help- I wish Mr. Jawara, his sister and two brothers a very ing out with some money, and today we have a situation peaceful life in Canada and thank him for sharing his where we're under the umbrella of the B.C. school fruit story with us. and vegetable nutritional program. SYMPHONY IN THE PARK EVENT AND With the work of more than a thousand volun- PIANO ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF AVAN YU teers, fruits and vegetable snacks are delivered in 1,400 schools around the province to over 500,000 students. R. Lee: Th is past weekend I had the pleasure of at- Collectively, this amounts to their serving seven mil- tending the 25th annual Symphony in the Park, fea- lion servings a year. Th is year, with a million dollars in turing the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra, with other new money from the government and in a partnership members of the House from Burnaby. Since the first with the B.C. Dairy Foundation, they've added milk to Symphony in the Park on August 10, 1989, over 160,000 the initiative. people have enjoyed the talents of the VSO in Deer Lake This program accomplishes many goals, including Park. promoting healthy living and supporting local busi- We are so lucky to have the beautiful Deer Lake Park as a community gathering place for cultural events in nesses and communities and B.C.'s vibrant agriculture. Burnaby. With the generosity of the city of Burnaby and Importantly, it's an example of how government, com- other sponsors, all members of our community are able munities, businesses and schools can all work together to attend this annual event free of cost and enjoy young to do great things. rising stars. I think we should all be proud of this program. We [1350] should be proud of it especially because it's the only one Last Sunday the program featured a young Canadian of its kind in Canada, and we should be especially proud pianist, Avan Yu, who performed the Rachmaninoff of Lindsey Babineau, the person who started it all. Rhapsody on a Th eme by Paganini. Mr. Yu moved to 724 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Vancouver from Hong Kong at the age of nine, has per- Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on formed with elite symphonies around the world and is a supplemental. the winner of the prestigious 2012 Sydney International Piano Competition. He fi rst played with the VSO in 2002 A. Dix: Well, this e-mail was not even available in the in Burnaby, and we are happy to have welcomed him material released by the government aft er the election, to Burnaby's Deer Lake Park last weekend. Again, the and it's not about political staff ers. Th is was the minis- event fi nished with Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, com- ter sending this e-mail from his private account to avoid plete with fi reworks simulating the 16 French cannon freedom-of-information laws and confi rming that there shots in the fi nale. was a "multi" — presumably short for multiculturalism I would like to congratulate Mr. Yu and Vancouver — election campaign strategy that was using public funds Symphony Orchestra on an excellent performance and to advance the Liberals' partisan interests. an exciting 25th anniversary event. I encourage all mem- It's not me testifying to this. It's the former minis- bers to visit Deer Lake Park and the Burnaby Village ter. It's the member for Richmond-Steveston. It's the Museum to enjoy any of the great cultural events that our Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice. It calls community is proud to host throughout the year. for the creation of contact lists which then could be used by the Liberal Party in the election. Oral Questions [1355] Here we have a minister of the Crown demanding of a IMPLEMENTATION OF supposed public servant where Ms. Sarrafpour's lists were MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY — lists that were for, in his words "our multi-election strat- egy." A. Dix: For days in this House and outside, the Premier Will the Minister for Multiculturalism fi nally admit to and the government have denied that the so-called hush this House, based on this incontrovertible evidence pro- money e-mail was ever acted upon. Yesterday, however, vided by her own colleague — her own colleague, hon. it was established that an inducement was off ered to si- Speaker — that the Liberals' multi-election strategy using lence a staff er who had information that would be "dam- public funds was indeed implemented? aging to the Premier." Now let's turn to another government denial. For Hon. T. Wat: Our former Minister for Multiculturalism months the Premier and the government denied the lar- has already apologized and considered the mistake by re- ger quick-win strategy was ever implemented. Today we signing already, so we have taken the responsibility. have in our possession new information that shows, de- It is clear by this line of questioning from the leader spite the government's denial, that the larger quick-win of the opposition that the members opposite have not strategy was also put into eff ect. yet read the whole Dyble report. Here's what the report Let me quote from an e-mail, from the private e-mail of the Premier's Minister for Multiculturalism of the said: "Th ose interviewed understand that, while some time, the member for Richmond-Steveston, to a public initial work was completed on looking at the potential servant of the time and Liberal operative, Brian Bonney. use of Win soft ware for caucus, it was not pursued. Every "Have you received Sepideh's lists?" it begins. "I realize person interviewed was clear that no database was ever she's been busy, but she has an obligation to you and me developed." and our Primrose to meet this contact-list requirement Th e report goes on: "During the records search, no evi- as part of our multi–election campaign strategy." dence was found of a database having been created." As In light of this e-mail, can the Minister for members of this House, this side, we all trust the work Multiculturalism confi rm that the multi–election cam- of our distinguished civil servants, and I hope that the paign strategy was indeed implemented? members on the opposite side will do the same.

Hon. T. Wat: As I have said in the past three days, Madame Speaker: Leader of the opposition on a sup- since Monday — today is the fourth day that I'm going plemental. to reiterate myself again — all the e-mails, including the last e-mail and the e-mail you refer to, were wrong. Th e A. Dix: Th is was nine months aft er they set out that approach and suggestions being made in the e-mail were strategy in that document, which of course referred to wrong and inappropriate. strategy before and aft er it. Nine months. Th is was three Th e Dyble report found that there's no evidence that days aft er a meeting held in the Premier's offi ce where the e-mails were acted on by the government. Th e Dyble they were developing lists and demanding that lists to report was fulsome, was exhaustive and was comprehen- further a multi–election campaign strategy be produced sive. It did show that some individuals clearly acted out- by people paid for by the public. side of the guidelines for public servants and for political Th is is the collecting of lists of contacts and passing staff . Th is e-mail falls into this category. them on to the Liberal Party, all using tax dollars. In Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 725

fact, it's the member for Richmond-Steveston in this e- that you guys are mentioning was acted on. Th ere was no mail who specifi cally contradicts what his successor, the evidence. If there was any evidence that it was acted on Minister for Multiculturalism, just said, hon. Speaker. by the government, it would have been included in the Will the minister fi nally admit that this was indeed the report and recommendations would be made. government's strategy from the start and that this plan had nothing to do with the public interest, nothing to do Madame Speaker: Vancouver–Mount Pleasant on a with governing? It was a scheme that had one purpose: supplemental. to promote the Liberal Party. J. Kwan: Th e evidence is actually not in the minister's Hon. T. Wat: It has now become clear, extremely clear, script, but it is all around her, surfacing each and every that the opposition wishes to refi ght the last election. Th e day. Now, during the estimates debate this morning voices of the electorate were loud and clear. Th ey gave us the Leader of the Offi cial Opposition asked the Deputy a mandate to create jobs, to expand trade, to promote the Premier if the Dyble review team had obtained all the economy and to secure a better future for our children. relevant documents needed to conduct the investigation. I am ready and members of this side of the House are Th e Deputy Premier replied: "We feel we did." ready to roll up our sleeves and get to work. I strongly Can the minister explain why this damning e-mail, an urge the members of the opposition to do the same. e-mail from the former Minister for Multiculturalism confi rming that government was using public money MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY for partisan purposes, was not included in the material INVESTIGATION AND E-MAIL FROM reviewed by Mr. Dyble? And can she tell this House how FORMER MULTICULTURALISM MINISTER many other e-mails and hidden documents are there that somehow were overlooked by this very thorough, com- J. Kwan: I know that the minister and the govern- prehensive Dyble review? ment like to claim that the Dyble report was thorough and comprehensive — same as the now member for Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is line of questioning invites Richmond-Steveston, who actually claimed before the so many metaphors. election that the document "never hit my desk." We now know that the government deliberately delayed the re- Interjections. lease of the 10,000 pages of documents until aft er the election. It was a deliberate strategy to hide what they Hon. A. Wilkinson: If the member opposite would were doing. refrain from so many interruptions, you might get some [1400] answers. Now an e-mail has come to light from the then Th is has truly become the "Dance of the Seven Veils." Minister for Multiculturalism that confirms, in his words, "the multi-election strategy" was, in fact, being With each passing day, the members opposite pull yet implemented. I have a copy of that that e-mail in my hand another scrawny rabbit out of the hat. But thanks to the right now, dated August 16, 2012, from the then Minister members of the gallery, yesterday there was a particu- for Multiculturalism to Brian Bonney asking specifi cally larly insightful question from media in the hallway. Th ey for the contact lists for the election from Ms. Sarrafpour. turned to the Leader of the Opposition and they said: Interestingly, this e-mail was not found in the 10,000 "What do you know about the mystery woman?" And the pages that the government released aft er the election. Leader of the Opposition was obliged to agree that the Maybe it was blanked out amongst the 5,000 pages that NDP have actually interviewed the mystery woman but were blank. My question to the minister is quite simple. didn't bother to tell this House. Was this very telling e-mail hidden by whiteout, or was [1405] it hidden by omission by design? Interjections. Hon. T. Wat: Honestly, I don't know what the mem- ber of the opposition was referring to. It's 10,000 pages Hon. A. Wilkinson: Since we're deep into metaphors of documents that were posted on the website. Let me re- and Shakespeare, methinks they doth protest too much. iterate once again that the Dyble report was conducted It's time for the opposition to come clean with this by four of the most senior public servants in the govern- House. We've had this silly cat-and-mouse game all week, ment. It was thorough, it was timely, and it was released four days of pulling scrawny rabbits out, pointing to the prior to the election. scrawny rabbit and saying there must be stew on the All the e-mails were ones of the 10,000 pages of docu- other side. It's time for the members of the opposition ments that we looked into and released as part of the re- to come clean, present their evidence to this House and port. Th e report found no evidence that the document let the court of public opinion decide. 726 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

S. Simpson: Maybe if the exhaustive investigation had Th is contradicts the Premier, who claimed that this interviewed Ms. Sarrafpour, we'd be further along than scheme was never put into play. It is time for some truth we are today. Minister aft er minister has claimed that and some honesty in this process. It is time for an in- the Dyble report tells us all we need to know about the dependent investigation with the power to get at the B.C. quick-win scandal. Yesterday the Multicultural Minister Liberal Party, to get at the Liberal caucus and their staff said that the report was comprehensive: "It was exhaust- and others. Will the Deputy Premier order that investi- ive." Th e Innovation Minister said it was a "wide-reaching gation today, or is he going to keep hiding? investigation." Th is morning the Deputy Premier said: "Commonly accepted forensic techniques and tools were Hon. A. Wilkinson: Let's look at the consequences of used to search across the aggregated data." these actions. Th e minister in question, from Richmond- How is it possible that a comprehensive, wide-reaching Steveston, resigned. Where's the resignation on their investigation using forensic techniques missed a govern- side? When this came to light, there was immediately ment e-mail from the minister to political staff asking an independent investigation on this side of the House. where the contact lists were for multi-election strategies? Where are the disclosure and investigation, on their And if it wasn't missed, why was it hidden? side of the House, about public money being spent on slush funds? Th is side of the House promptly paid back Hon. A. Wilkinson: We're faced now with our fourth $70,000 of taxpayers' funds. Not one nickel has been paid day of sanctimonious pronouncements from the oppos- back by the 27 members sitting there. ition. It's time to get some facts on the table. Th e facts Finally, Madame Speaker, let me quote from NDP in- behind the NDP ethnic outreach fi asco are rather murky, sider Bill Tieleman in 2011 — quoting community or- but this is what we know. Th ese facts had to be ferreted ganizer Katrina Chen, "As an adviser for the B.C. NDP, out by the Auditor General, and then the NDP did every- Gabriel Yiu has signifi cantly helped the party to raise its thing they could to suppress them. profi le in the Asian community" — the year that Gabriel Th e NDP — 27 members opposite — siphoned off Yiu was paid $74,000 by 27 of the people on that side of $200 a month from constituency funds paid for by the the House. taxpayer, handed them over to the ethnic outreach slush fund over the years. Six years — count the fi ngers. We Madame Speaker: Member for Delta South. know they have ten, so perhaps they have four years to [Applause.] go on the slush fund. Over the six years, $372,000 of public funds are paid ALBERTA RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS out from ridings like Columbia River–Revelstoke, from FOR OIL AND GAS COMPANIES North Coast, from Maillardville. Th ose are paid into an NDP ethnic outreach slush fund. V. Huntington: Oh, I thank the hon. member. The government's campaign platform included a Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Hastings on a supple- promise that B.C. will ensure Alberta lives up to its mental. TILMA obligations not to discriminate against B.C.- based companies that want access to Alberta's oil and S. Simpson: Th e legislative comptroller administered gas play. I can't tell the government how pleased I was to that money. I wonder if they administered the money for see that my previous questions on this subject had made the quick-win scandal. Th is e-mail…. it into your platform. Even so, it was a curious election promise, because Interjection. just before the election the former Minister of Jobs told the House that the trade dispute had been resolved. S. Simpson: As soon as he fi nishes the bluster, I'll get Meanwhile, my offi ce had been advised that while the going there, hon. Speaker. negotiators might have agreed on regulatory equivalency, This e-mail is from the former Minister for neither government had signed off on the agreement. Multiculturalism, hon. Speaker. Th is e-mail is from the In the last four years alone, Alberta's residency re- former Minister for Multiculturalism to Brian Bonney quirements have led to residency audits on at least 17 using government e-mail. B.C. companies. One constituent of mine was forced to [1410] move his family, his company and its jobs, taxes and tal- It refers to contact lists for use in the B.C. Liberal ent back to Alberta. election strategy. In the e-mail the MLA for Richmond- Given that this House has been told many times that Steveston says that Ms. Sarrafpour has "an obligation the deal had been concluded or was about to conclude, to you and me and our Primrose to meet this contact can the minister responsible — and I've just recently list requirement as part of our multi–election campaign found out that it might even be, for some reason, the strategy." Minister of International Trade — tell us when her gov- Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 727

ernment will step up, be as hard-nosed as Alberta and these actions were wrong, will she support a full, in- take control of a situation that has penalized B.C. com- dependent investigation into how the Liberals abused panies for over a decade? public money in their bid to get re-elected?

Hon. T. Wat: Th ank you, hon. Member, for that ques- Hon. A. Wilkinson: I don't intend to be repetitious tion. As a small, open economy, B.C. recognizes the and use up the good offi ces of Hansard to restate what crucial importance of trade for our economic prosper- has been said 25 times already this week. Rather, I pro- ity. Improved market access leads to freer fl ow of goods, pose a homework list for the NDP MLAs as they return services and also labour, which helps to diversify our to their ridings this weekend to explain a few things to markets, increase trade and create jobs. Th at is why our their constituents: (1) draft a letter of apology to the four government is a leader and active partner in numerous deputy ministers who put together the Dyble report; (2) domestic and international trade initiatives. apologize to their constituents for a week of bungled [1415] questions on an issue they already knew the answers to; Domestic trade agreements — like TILMA, as the hon. (3) each of them, all 34 of them, raise $11,000 from party member mentioned, and the new west partnership — members to contribute to the $372,000 cheque that they eliminate barriers to interprovincial movement of goods, will bring next week, payable to the Ministry of Finance, labour and investment and bring about a more open and to return taxpayers' money. stable domestic trade environment within Canada. It is Assuming they have some spare time this weekend be- through this initiative that we can grow our economy, fore they come back to the House next week, they could diversify our markets and create family-supporting jobs. arrange to issue bogus e-mail addresses to each other to continue the frauds of the 1990s that led to hiding their Madame Speaker: Member for Delta South on a sup- messages from the FOI. plemental. ATTORNEY GENERAL RESPONSE V. Huntington: I'm sorry that the minister feels that TO MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH that's an adequate answer to a question that's been hang- STRATEGY ISSUES ing over B.C. companies for over a decade. Last session the former Minister of Jobs also told the L. Krog: It may not be repetitious, but it's certainly House that thanks to the successful culmination of the tedious. new west trade partnership's dispute resolution pro- I'm wondering what the Attorney General has done in cess we were "starting to see head offi ces being set up in light of all the evidence presented over the last two weeks. British Columbia." He was referring to B.C. fi rms oper- We have an e-mail outlining a scheme to off er induce- ating in Alberta's oil and gas play. ments to buy the silence of Ms. Sarrafpour. We have the Can the minister confi rm this statement, and will she revelation that she was never interviewed, notwithstand- provide this House with the names of the companies that ing, supposedly, the claims of a wide-ranging investiga- have returned to B.C.? tion that was anything but. [1420] Hon. T. Wat: Th ank you, hon. Member, for the ques- Th e revelation now — a new e-mail from a cabinet tion. I will get back to you on the name of the company, minister at the time laying out what her obligations were but I would like to say that my ministry, along with the and, I would suggest, hon. Speaker, pretty clear evidence Oil and Gas Commission, is working to conclude the mu- over the last two weeks that this scheme was in fact im- tual recognition agreement with Alberta that is in B.C.'s plemented, notwithstanding the repeated denials by the best interest. Once this MRA is signed, energy compan- Premier and other members of the executive council, de- ies with head offi ces in B.C. will have full access to the oil nials obviously contradicted by the evidence that is now and gas industry in Alberta. clear and in the public realm. To the Attorney General…. And before she gets up to CALL FOR INDEPENDENT answer, I'd like to remind her of her dual role as both a INVESTIGATION INTO MULTICULTURAL member of cabinet, as a political member, and her sep- OUTREACH STRATEGY arate and independent role as the chief law enforcement offi cer of the province of British Columbia. What steps, B. Ralston: It's clear that the B.C. Liberals took money if any, has she taken to protect the integrity of the justice from the public and used it to build party lists aimed at system and the public service of British Columbia? "swings in B.C. but focused in the Lower Mainland." Th ey used public money to "recruit supporters to help local Interjections. MLAs" with the election. If the Minister for Multiculturalism truly believes Madame Speaker: Members. Order. 728 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Hon. A. Wilkinson: The member refers to doubt. progress of the Nanaimo school district. Th ere is no doubt about the need for the members oppos- [1425] ite, all 34 of them, to collect that money from their NDP funds and bring it back here on Monday to pay back the Orders of the Day Ministry of Finance. Very briefl y, we've been joined just now by an esteemed Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber I call Committee of member of the press gallery. I'm going to paraphrase him Supply — for the information of members, the continu- by saying that if this is the pattern that the NDP are set- ing estimates of the Offi ce of the Premier in Section A, ting, this is going to be four very, very long years. Douglas Fir, Committee of Supply; and the estimates of the Ministry of Transportation in Section C, the Birch [End of question period.] Room, initially Committee of Supply estimates for the Ministry of Education — and, I believe, by agreement, Point of Privilege at 5 p.m. we would do, and I alert members, committee (Reservation of Right) stage on Bill 2.

J. Horgan: I rise to reserve my right to raise a point Point of Privilege of personal privilege with respect to the comments from (Reservation of Right) the member for Vancouver-Quilchena. B. Ralston: I rise to reserve my right to raise a ques- Tabling Documents tion of privilege based on the comments by the Minister of Technology uttered during question period. Hon. S. Bond: I have the honour to present the an- [1430] nual report for the calendar year of 2012 by the Labour Relations Board and the annual report for the calendar Committee of Supply year of 2012 by WorkSafe B.C. ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER Petitions (continued)

D. Routley: I rise to present a petition to the House. Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); D. This petition is collected by parents of the South Horne in the chair. Wellington School. It calls on the government to act to stop the closure of their school. It also calls for the re- Th e committee met at 2:33 p.m. moval of the Nanaimo school board. On Vote 10: Offi ce of the Premier, $9,008,000 (con- Point of Privilege tinued). (Reservation of Right) Th e Chair: We're currently considering the budget es- N. Macdonald: I'd like to rise and reserve my right to timates of the Offi ce of the Premier. raise a point of privilege with respect to a statement made by the member during question period. Interjection.

Madame Speaker: Can you just state the member in A. Dix: Is that right? Th at's exciting. Th ese are the in- question? novations we have. Two innovations: we can't reduce the Premier's salary to a dollar, and we can't do anything N. Macdonald: Well, I guess that I would be confused about this. Th ese are the changes we have. It's very in- if it was the Justice Minister, but I think it's the member teresting. for Vancouver-Quilchena. A question in terms of the e-mail question today, in question period. It's an e-mail from the former Minister Petitions for Multiculturalism, from his private e-mail, to Mr. Bonney, in his public e-mail. D. Routley: I rise to present another petition. Th is pe- [1435] tition is collected by parents of the Save Cedar Schools Th ere is nothing in the e-mail that seems to us to indi- group. In a period of 24 hours they have collected over cate that such an e-mail — I'll just read to you the rel- 1,800 signatures. Th ey are calling on the government to evant sections here — would in fact be withheld under provide the resources necessary to keep their schools freedom of information. It says as follows — from, as I open and to appoint a special adviser to review the say, the member for Richmond-Steveston, the former Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 729

Minister for Multiculturalism: search no evidence was found of a database having been "Have you seen Sepideh's lists? I haven't heard nor received any created." copy. I recall on Monday" — and the Deputy Premier will recall the Monday we're referring to is the meeting held in the Premier's offi ce that is referred to in the report — "she 'promised me' the J. Kwan: Well, as it happens, the e-mail was actually lists would be submitted by Tuesday — Wednesday, yesterday, at sent by the former Minister for Multiculturalism to Brian the latest." Bonney, to his government e-mail account, so it wasn't It goes on to say: hidden in a private e-mail, presumably. It was actually "She has an obligation to you and me and our Primrose to meet sent to Brian Bonney, who was the then director of com- this contact list requirement as part of our multi–election cam- paign strategy. She has been very late on her reports. munications, to his government e-mail account. "Please follow up as needed, and drop me a line to advise." Again, I'd like to know: if the minister says he doesn't With the minister's initial at the bottom. know whether or not that was amongst the 10,000 pages Why is this document — which specifi cally contradicts that were released, will he commit to fi nd out so that we on issues of lists and development of lists, conclusions of can have that information, so that we have clarity about the report — not in the 10,000 pages? whether or not this e-mail was in fact amongst the 10,000 pages that were released by the government? Hon. R. Coleman: As I have stated previously about the lists, all matters were reviewed by the Dyble report. Hon. R. Coleman: You have clarity, hon. Member: If the opposition would take the time to read the report, "Every person interviewed was clear that no database they would know that they concluded no database was was ever developed." It also concluded: "During the rec- ever created. ord search no evidence was found of a database having Here is what the report says, from page 24: "Every per- been created." son interviewed was clear that no database was ever de- But for the member's interest, because she may not veloped." Th e report goes on to conclude: "During the have heard earlier, I will go through how we did the re- records search no evidence was found a database had cord search again. been created." I trust the fi ndings of these distinguished "On Friday, March 1, 2013, the review team provided instruc- public servants, and I suggest that the members opposite tions to the logistics and business services division — responsible for information access operations, the IAO — and the offi ce of the might want to do the same. chief information offi cer, responsible for information technology Th e reality is that people resigned or were terminated and investigations in forensics, on the records search for the review. over this. We acted upon it. Th ere have been recommen- "Search criteria were provided specifi cally specifying all poten- dations of the Dyble report implemented within govern- tial individuals involved, and specifi c search terms were provided. ment. Th e Premier immediately apologized to the people "For the physical records, individuals within the Ministries of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training; Advanced Education, of B.C. and took the steps that were necessary. We know Innovation and Technology; government communications and what did and did not happen, and it's all contained in public engagement; and respective ministers' offi ces were asked the report. to search e-mail, hard drives, LAN, SharePoint, Groove and physical fi les. "All staff participating in the search were required to complete J. Kwan: Was the e-mail that the Leader of the Offi cial and sign an investigation records search sign-off form. Each area Opposition just read into the record amongst the 10,000 was given until 11 a.m. on Monday, March 4…to complete their pages that were released by the government? searches and print all records. Staff from IAO arrived to collect boxes of records at 11 a.m. on Monday, March 4, 2013. Employees who indicated they could not collect material at this time were Hon. R. Coleman: I don't have the e-mail in front of asked to provide the records available within the time period and me, and neither do my public servants. Th ere's no abil- to follow up with additional records as they became available. ity to actually respond to that specifi c request relative to "All records were scanned into electronic format, maintaining the 10,000 pieces. I do know that there was a very exten- the order in which the records were collected by program areas. sive database search done. I do know that the report con- Electronic fi les were labelled with the area of government and the name of the individual that supplied the record. Optical character cluded that no database was ever created out of this. Th e recognition, OCR, was applied to all records to facilitate key-word whole search package…. searches. IAO estimates that approximately 10,000 pages of records [1440] were collected. One of the members quoted me from earlier today "The investigation and forensics unit, information security that we had the right people on this. We had people who branch, offi ce of the chief information offi cer, conducts investiga- tions related to cybersecurity and the unauthorized or inappropri- do work with regard to computer and database searches, ate use of government information and resources. Th e primary searching for e-mails with key words to fi nd all the in- focus of the unit is on the collection, analysis and interpretation formation we possibly could; 10,000 items were actually of electronic evidence. released on this. "Th e unit was engaged to assist by collecting electronic data from government systems and by searching that data based on the time I'll repeat what the report says. Th e report says: "Every periods and key words supplied. person interviewed was clear that no database was ever "Current and historical data from mailboxes, home drives and developed." It goes on to conclude: "During the record computers was also collected. Commonly accepted forensic tech- 730 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

niques and tools were used to search across the aggregated data. to this matter, and the Premier actually apologized in this Th is data related to specifi c persons identifi ed by those leading House with regards to the issue. the investigation. Th e unit also responded to ad hoc requests for additional or more specifi c information. "Th e results and analysis were provided to the investigation team A. Dix: As I understand it, this e-mail, which in the in various ways, including in-person interviews." words of the former Minister for Multiculturalism es- In 10,000 records, hon. Member, no database was ever sentially contradicts the assertions that he makes in the developed. report itself that are used as evidence and foundation, which were said to be confi rmed…. It absolutely con- J. Kwan: Mr. Chair, I think there's a lesson amongst tradicts that. cabinet ministers to be trained to not answer the ques- Th e minister says it doesn't contradict it and that he tions that they're asked. Th at wasn't the question that I was seeking, from a government employee, lists — de- asked. Th e answer that the minister gave was not to the manding lists coming out of a meeting about lists held in question that I asked. the Premier's offi ce — and that the requirement was part [1445] of their multi–election campaign strategy. So let me repeat the question very clearly for the minis- Th at contradicts the conclusion of the report on these ter. I'm asking whether or not the e-mail dated Th ursday, questions. Th e report seems to suggest that these items August 16, 2012, at 1:51 p.m., from the former Minister were not pursued. Th ey were pursued. Th e meeting in for Multiculturalism, from his private e-mail, to Brian question was even referred to in the report, but there Bonney — Bonney, Brian, GCPE:EX, address brian.bon- was nothing about this in that referral to that August 13 [email protected] — which is a public e-mail account ad- meeting. In fact, the August 13 meeting — which magic- dress from government…. ally has disappeared from the calendar of the Minister for Th e e-mail is, "Subject: Contact lists," and it reads as Multiculturalism when we FOI'd it, but there it is — was follows: about lists. It said it was about lists. "Hi, Brian: Now, we know that they were demanding actual lists. "Have you received Sepideh's lists? I haven't heard nor received It wasn't theoretical, in the future. Th is e-mail shows it, any copy. I recall on Monday she 'promised me' the lists would so it's legitimate for us to ask: did the report fi nd this e- be submitted by Tuesday — Wednesday, yesterday, at the latest. mail or not? It was in Mr. Bonney's e-mails. We know "I realize she's been busy with the Iran earthquake–related issues that because it was sent to his government e-mail. It was and a PCCA event, but she has an obligation to you and me and our Primrose to meet this contact list requirement as part of our sent from the member for Richmond-Steveston's pri- multi–election campaign strategy. She has also been very late on vate e-mail. her reports. Th e question, I guess, is pretty straightforward. Did "Please follow up as needed, and drop me a line to advise." the Dyble report see this e-mail, and doesn't it say ex- It is signed by the initial of the minister. plicitly that the minister is out there getting lists, which I am asking specifi cally whether or not this e-mail is is consistent with what he was going to do in the draft amongst the 10,000 documents that were released from strategy document? the government. [1450]

Hon. R. Coleman: I will repeat for the member oppos- Hon. R. Coleman: I'm going to refer back. Th is is on ite that there was an extensive investigation, and 10,000 page 23. I did some of this, this morning, as well, with pieces of information were posted. Th e work was done regards to databases and lists. by, as I described a minute ago, very qualifi ed people. Th e "Th e December 2011 spreadsheet makes specifi c reference to report says, on page 24: "Every person interviewed was the Win '13 soft ware for the ability to create ethnic lists and the clear that no database was ever developed." Now, also creation of an ethnic database. Th ose interviewed understand that while some of the initial work was completed on looking at on page 24: "During the record search no evidence was potential use of the soft ware for caucus, it was not pursued. Every found of a database ever being created." person interviewed was clear that no database was ever developed." Th rough this investigation, or this review, we deter- To the hon. member, I can read the rest of page 24 and mined that those things did not happen. Th e member over to page 25 into the record, but I would refer him to can ask the question a hundred more times in a diff erent that information in the report that clearly deals with this. way. Th e fact of the matter is that I will continue to give Th e fact of the matter is that there were activities going the member the answer that no database was created. No on that were wrong. Th at's why people resigned; people database was developed, and that is part of the Dyble were terminated. Th at's why a report was done. Th at's report. I would suggest the member take the time and why the research was done. Th at's why the decisions read the sections of the report that are pertinent to that. were made. Th e policies were directed back to govern- We also, as the member knows, dealt with person- ment, from the report to there. But the fact of the matter nel issues. People were terminated. A minister resigned. is that no matter what… I mean, whatever activity was Th ose things were taken in full public view with regards going on, no database was ever developed. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 731

A. Dix: Well, here's the relevance of the e-mail. Th e A. Dix: Well, what we have is a minister of the Crown minister said it was not pursued. Th e report says it was who said that this wasn't being done — that this plan not pursued. What the e-mail shows is that it was pur- wasn't being put in place, that this was a draft strategy sued. So the question is: did the Dyble review team have document. Th en we have the Premier, who said: "Oh, it the e-mail or not? Because the e-mail is explicit. Th e didn't happen. I never heard it happening. All of my sen- Dyble report could not say that if they had that e-mail. ior staff were at the meeting and never heard anything about it." Hon. R. Coleman: Absolutely, it could say that. Just We now have the minister of the Crown who was say- because there's a conversation about lists being de- ing that, acknowledging nine months later…. He hasn't veloped doesn't mean that you ever did get to where you acknowledged it, of course, but he says it clearly — that had a database developed, which is the case. No data- it precisely was happening. base was ever developed. It's on page 24 of the report, Perhaps the minister could tell us what the Dyble re- hon. Member. port had to say about the multi–election campaign strat- egy referred to by the minister himself. On August 16 the A. Dix: So the meeting, Monday, August 13, referred minister himself is talking about a multi–election cam- to in the document — right? — in the same paragraphs paign strategy nine months aft erwards, right? Th e min- that the minister's talking about. This is, "I recall on Monday," says the former minister in his testimony here. ister himself says this. I don't know what his testimony was like to the review, How is that consistent with the repeated statements but his testimony in this e-mail is pretty clear. He says: "I by the government that there were some unfortunate ex- recall on Monday" — this meeting — "she promised me cesses in the document put in question? Th is document the lists would be submitted by Tuesday — Wednesday… was being put in place here, and it was being used to pro- at the latest." mote the Liberal Party. The report accepts that building databases was a forward-looking assignment for the four commun- Hon. R. Coleman: I'll go to page 24 for a couple of ity liaison offi cers. It wasn't a forward-looking assign- sentences, I guess. "Stakeholder lists, event lists and ref- ment. Th ey were doing it, and the minister himself was erences to the development of lists were all found in the demanding the list. Why was he demanding the list? To records search." Lists — not a computer database, not promote the Liberal Party. Th at's what the e-mail says. something that would be used for the purposes…. Th e e-mail says — about that exact meeting, the ex- I know that the Leader of the Opposition goes to act meeting — they were meeting to get these lists. Th e events, and people there oft en, in many cases, will sign minister himself was demanding the lists. And the report in to the event and give their e-mail address. I'm sure says it was a forward-looking assignment that wasn't be- the member opposite writes a thank-you letter to them ing proceeded with. for attending a function or an event that's offi cial in kind, So my question is simple. I mean, you cannot have the which is a normal activity of government on both sides minister saying, "I was promised lists on August 13," and of the House. Back in the constituency, as well, where then saying that that wasn't a database being developed. you actually meet people and you meet with groups, you Of course it was. do write them and thank them, and that's the function. I guess I ask the minister again: did they have this e- Th ose are lists. To create a database on a computer mail? Th is e-mail clearly shows, nine months aft er the system that's a database for all of this to be combined document was put in place, that this list-building was did not take place. So although there were lists of diff er- part of a multi–election campaign strategy. How could ent meetings and people that attended events and stuff they have drawn those conclusions about that report if like that, it was never developed into a database for any they'd had this e-mail? other purpose. Hon. R. Coleman: Nobody's denied that…. Even in the report it refers to stakeholder lists, event lists and A. Dix: What was the contact list requirement? It's re- that sort of thing. But no database was ever acted upon ferred to. Just to say: "She has an obligation to you and and developed for the use of anything. It was not done. me and our Primrose" — who was the executive direc- Th e lists were requested, but there was no database put tor, presumably, of the B.C. Liberal caucus — "to meet together, nor was it acted upon to do any databases. Th at this contact list requirement as part of our multi–election is evidence that's very clear in the report. campaign strategy." [1455] Th is is a cabinet minister talking to a public servant Now, I can refer the member to page 24, paragraph 2, about another public servant, right? Th is is what this is. of the report, and to page 28, paragraph 3, of the report I didn't read about this in the report — saying that there for his own reading. But if he wishes to continue, I'll be is a contact list requirement. So what's that? happy to read both of them into the record. [1500] 732 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Hon. R. Coleman: I'll go back to the member again. documents, what were the keywords that were used to On page 28: "No evidence was found that work was search for the documents? I mean, we might want to underway on an ethnic database. However, lists were be- search those. Which keywords would have electronic- ing generated to support events and record attendance at ally fl agged the activities and documents that we referred events — not uncommon. Th at way, you can communi- to in the inducement e-mail, page 2639 of PDF 3? What cate back to people who have participated in something keywords would have electronically fl agged the frequent and also get feedback on whether they thought the pres- references to partisan activities on the part of the Liberal entation was worthwhile or whatever the case may be. government in list collection — on pages 2636, 2637 and Th at's not uncommon in the role of an MLA — I know 2639 — but not picked up in this case? that — or in the role of a minister or in the role of gov- Th at's, I guess, the question we have. Th ey are one part ernment. of a proper investigative technique, presumably — such Th e issue that was at hand here is that there were a keyword searches. And given the time frame of this in- number of e-mails that showed that Mr. Bonney for- vestigation, that's what clearly was being done here. warded over 1,100 e-mails from his government ac- Th at's what the report acknowledges being done here. count to one of three personal e-mail accounts. Th at's But it's also critical, surely, to actually read the docu- in the report, Member. It's public. Nobody is trying to ment. Did the review committee that wrote the report hide from them. read the documents? Th e analysis was to create an impression. Th ey were adamant in their interview, however, that they did not Hon. R. Coleman: Page 81 of the report is very clear. share anything inappropriately. Given that, plus the fact I've actually read page 81 into the record in this House that no database was created, the conclusion of the re- twice today already. port was that every person interviewed was clear that no [1505] database was ever developed. And during our records search no evidence was found of a database being created. A. Dix: I just want to talk about timelines with respect to the report. Initially, when the Deputy Premier referred A. Dix: Well, no database was created within govern- in the House to the report, there was talk of a one-day ment. Presumably, if you're looking at this list require- report. Th en that became a two-week report. ment as part of a multi–election campaign strategy…. But I guess what I want to know is when, in light of this, And with great respect, I would be very surprised if the the writing of the report happened. We had the inter- Deputy Premier had ever instructed a public servant to views, we had the review of the data, and then we had the create lists to forward as part of an election campaign writing of the report. How did the draft ing of the report strategy in this way. I would be very surprised. I bet he's happen, when was it completed, and who was involved never done that. in writing the report? Th e lists were being presented for someone's database, you bet, but it wasn't in government. Th e Dyble report, Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, I should tell the mem- of course, couldn't review any of those questions or the ber that on many nights people worked past midnight e-mails in question, because they didn't seek to do that. to work on this report and on this review. Th ey worked Th ey chose not to do that. So the answer is: we don't know. weekends. Th ey worked holidays. It wasn't a nine-to-fi ve Th e best that the report could argue is that we don't thing. A ton of work was done. know whether such a database was developed. It wasn't Th e ability to start draft ing the preamble to the re- developed within government, but it was being de- port was there around the eighth of the month. It real- veloped by the government as part of a multi–election ly was the context of who the review team was, starting campaign strategy of the Liberal Party. I think that's the the chronology of the events but more so about what al- relevant fact. It's perplexing to us how such an e-mail, ready existed in government policy and summary and which speaks to these questions, wasn't, I guess, reviewed those types of things to start to get context. Th en that by the Dyble investigation group. context would have fi lled in the blanks relative to the I just want to, then, get back, I guess, to understand the specifi c report over the ensuing time, as all the data was search of documents here. I mean, it's pretty plain that taken together and put together, analyzed and compared this document, had it existed, would have formed part of to the interviews. the narrative on this question. It could not have not done Th e report itself was probably put into its fi nal draft so. Th e specifi c meeting and the specifi c issue of lists were around the 13th of the month and released on the 14th. addressed. I am presuming that this e-mail was not pro- Th at was how it was approached. duced as part of that document search — even though, I do know that the four senior public servants each had of course, it went to Mr. Bonney and it dealt with some a hand in writing portions of the report, in collaboration of these issues. with their colleagues. Th ey would, I'm sure, rely on other I guess the question I have is: as part of the search of research and information coming from the searches and Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 733

those sorts of things relative to what they were dealing come and written a plan that never got acted upon. But with, with regards to the report, comparing it and bring- the reality is that as they did the plan, their language or ing it together into a fi nal conclusion as a group as they discussion and how they thought they would do it were worked through the entire package. wrong. We said that back in March, when we started this process with the report. A. Dix: I guess the question is…. Having read the Th e Premier apologized about it. We said, "We're go- documents myself, a task made easier by the dramat- ing to get to the bottom of it," which we did. We came ic extent of the redaction that the government had in back with this report that gives recommendations on the the documents…. Even in my own case — working future operations of things within government, which I aft er midnight, which I frequently do as well, so I share think was a valuable exercise for both sides of the House. something in common with the Deputy Minister to the Premier — it took a signifi cant period of time to go A. Dix: What the Deputy Premier is saying is they re- through this material, quite a period of time, in fact, to viewed 10,000 pages of documents and didn't call back a fi nd certain of these documents. single witness. Th ey didn't have a single question, either You'll recall the document we were referring to this about the inducement or about this or anything else. morning, where senior offi cials of the government, the Th ey didn't have a single question for any witness aft er cabinet, Liberal Party MLAs and others were on an e- reviewing 10,000 pages of documents. mail which talked about inducement of another employ- ee or former employee to stay silent and not damage the Hon. R. Coleman: Th e information was being shared Premier. It took us, actually, quite a long time to fi nd that in parallel paths as interviews were taking place. I an- document. It was in reverse order in the e-mail. It was swered this question this morning, as to how the inves- aft er pages of redaction. It was diffi cult to fi nd. tigation was conducted and how it was coordinated. As I guess the question is: did the review team read all interviews were taking place, documents were also being 10,000 pages before presenting the report? reviewed, and they were used in conversations with the [1510] people that were being interviewed. Th ere was, in fact, one person that was brought back for a second discussion, Hon. R. Coleman: Th ere was a team of people. Th ere and that is on the interview schedule that is on page 77. were the four senior public servants who were leading the Th e fact of the matter is: I answered this question this review. Th ere was a war room, for lack of a better descrip- morning. I told the member that they were running in tion, of people that went through every single document concert and in parallel. I didn't say that one was isolated in detail. Th ey would pull out documents that had any from the other. As interviews were taking place, docu- reference back into anything to do with this. Th ey would ments were being reviewed. Discussions coming out of provide that to a member of the review team, who would those were matched up to the documentation so that we take home stacks of that paper and read them every night would actually be able to confi rm that the information we and then come back with questions and follow-up. Th e were receiving in interviews matched up with what was team would coordinate that among themselves. going on with regards to the electronic piece. Th e con- Th e explanation would be that there was a lot of people clusions are in the report, and the report was published. doing work to make sure they were coordinated to get the [1515] information together. Th ey worked very hard and very late at night and on weekends to accomplish it so that this A. Dix: I wanted to return to the matter that the Deputy report could get done and we could actually understand Premier referred to this morning that left me puzzled. I if there was misuse of government funds — which ob- asked several questions about document collection and viously, the member knows was refunded; about $70,000 analysis and the failure of the review to query matters was the concern — and in addition to that, how these raised in the e-mail by calling witnesses back to be inter- folks were acting outside the rules. viewed. In fact, on an issue as serious as the inducement Th ey were disciplined in various ways — things that e-mail, one would have logically thought that several wit- aff ected their future careers and what have you for some nesses who were part of the inducement scheme would of them perhaps. But this was all done in order to make have been called back. Th ey, of course, weren't. sure that we could build some standards around this for What puzzled me was a statement by the Deputy the future as to how these things should not be done. Premier as a reason that Mr. Bonney, among others, was Th at's what the exercise was about. I believe it accom- not recalled. Th e Deputy Premier said this morning: "In plished that. addition to that, during the interview with the individ- Having read the report and having gone through the ual, the individual did not fl ag this as an issue" — refer- notes with regards to the information that I have…. ring to Mr. Bonney. About no database ever being developed, things weren't Am I to take it that those who actually engaged in the acted upon, and there was this group of people that had misconduct, using government resources for partisan 734 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

purposes — those who had been involved in the scheme, going over the documents. Did the war room short-list right? — if they didn't voluntarily raise the issue, then the the inducement e-mail and forward it to the review team? misconduct wasn't fl agged? [1520]

Hon. R. Coleman: The context, obviously, of that Hon. R. Coleman: Let's be clear. I didn't refer to a war statement was in a broader conversation this morning, room. I said "for lack of a better description, a war room." but I'll clarify for the member that during interviews, the I mean, you could call it a document room. You could discussion was about the conduct of people, their duties, call it a room of people that when major companies are what each one was doing within the interview context. making takeovers, they'll have a room that's shut down so Portions of that information are obviously redacted for every document relative to the takeover can be in a place FOIPOP purposes because that's the law. and accountants come in and go through it. I stated previously to the member opposite that the We had it set up so that the people we had who were process of the investigation, the information, how the supporting the team of people in the review had a place interviews were done and what came out of that, match- to go through all the documentation. Th ey would iden- ing up to the database information, the information we tify pieces of the documentation where information collected from e-mails, looking at all the documents…. was in it that needed to be passed on to the team doing Th e report found that…. Th at particular question the the interviews, working on the rest of the coordination member brought up this morning was not acted on. It of what the interview said versus what was collected in would have been included in the report if it had been data — all of that. acted upon. Th at work was done by a group of people who worked It's the same thing where I say earlier, on page 24, that very long hours, as I said, in concert with the four senior no database has been created — because the report found public servants that were running the review, plus the that no database had been created. Th erefore, that's the technical people we had, whose specialty, really, is to do answer to the member's question. this. Certainly, I could not describe how that would work. I've already twice explained how the data was being It goes way beyond my technical ability, to explain how collected and matched up, using forensic methods that you do, I guess, a kind of word search issue — maybe are common in doing an investigation on large amounts like doing Google but certainly not a forensic review of of documentation and sharing that information — how documentation that these people have the expertise to do. people were reviewing the information, providing it to All of this was done, and at the end of the day, the re- the team of people with regards to the pertinent things port was produced. It was very clear about it, and we that they needed to review as part of the reports they were very clear, too, that this was not acceptable behav- were working on and how they came together at the end iour, and this is what we're going to change in the future with all of the information, reviewed it, and made their in government to make sure it never happens again. conclusions, as a team of people, by going through all of this stuff and working long, long hours, seven days a A. Dix: I know that the minister wanted to respond to week, in order to accomplish this, to make sure that they his use of "war room." I was just quoting him. met, basically, the test of getting this done as quickly as Did they short-list the inducement e-mail and forward possible and getting the information out to the public it to the review team? Did Mr. Dyble read this e-mail? and providing them with conclusions on this particu- lar issue. Hon. R. Coleman: Th e review team did read the docu- We have said — as I said this morning, as I said ear- ment. Th e sequencing, when you're dealing with 10,000 lier, have constantly said — that this was not acceptable documents as to which time, which day, which even- to us. Th e Premier made that clear. Th at's why the re- ing, which morning — you know, where: "Who had it view was instituted very quickly aft er it came to light. fi rst or second?" — I don't have that information, and I Th e work was done. wouldn't expect that I would. You track the information Now, the member opposite can argue with timing on as it comes in; you track it as it moves. Th e reality is that certain things, but I think — given what I know and hav- it's impossible for me to give you that answer. But I can ing read the report and gone through some of the infor- tell you the review team had the documents. Th ey did it mation that is provided as a result of estimates — that the and dealt with it, as part of the report. process conducted, how it was conducted, and the profes- sionals that did it, even the search side of this thing, the A. Dix: Given the nature of the document, can the people that reviewed the documentation in cooperation Deputy Premier provide an explanation as to why Ms. with the team of senior public servants, did, frankly, a Sarrafpour wasn't interviewed? Why all of the other yeoman's service to us with regards to getting this done. community outreach workers — whose activity was, in part, to collect lists that were a central part of the plan A. Dix: Th e Deputy Premier referred to a war room, they were implementing, which was supposedly never Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 735

implemented but was being implemented — why none Hon. R. Coleman: Well, given the description I gave of those community outreach workers was interviewed the member at the beginning of this debate, now about by the review team? 3½ hours ago, these three professional public servants [1525] were given an independent job to do without any direc- tion or infl uence from government. So the team made the Hon. R. Coleman: Th e individual left in September of decisions relative to how they would conduct the investi- 2012. We did interview the persons that were responsible gation. Solely the team made those decisions. for their supervision and what their roles were. Since no database was created, there was no need to interview the A. Dix: I wanted to move to one of — and this is really individual. Because there was, frankly, no job or contract quite a heavy competition — the least edifying aspects found within government relative to the individual, there of all of this. It's touched on in Mr. Dyble's report and was no activity subsequent to that particular e-mail. Th ey referred to…. I think the term is critical of the language made the decision of who they would interview and how used. But it's the statements in the draft document about they would coordinate that information through inter- the use of historical wrongs for partisan gain. views and the 10,000 pieces of documents, and that's As the Deputy Premier will know, the document came how they did it. in place in December of 2011 and January of 2012. Th at issue in this political meeting held in the Premier's of- A. Dix: According to no less a fi gure than the member fi ce was also an issue in August — August 13, 2012. So for Richmond-Steveston, and the minister who was dir- on both of those points, it was mentioned. And it was ecting this scheme, they were doing just that, but it was mentioned, actually, and dealt with repeatedly between going to the Liberal Party. Of course, that was beyond those times. the scope of the Dyble report, although the Dyble report Th e minister, the Deputy Premier, will know that the opposition was contacted in May of 2012, and a propos- does mention that activity — but again, can't draw any al was made, a motion was sent. I know because I was conclusions about it. It was beyond their scope. preparing to speak on that motion. Th e government was So basically, all of those people who knew and were de- going to proceed to just such an apology. We had just, veloping the databases weren't seen as witnesses worthy in fact, done an apology with respect to the internment of questions in that process. Th at's an interesting assess- of Japanese Canadians in World War II that the then ment. Minister of Advanced Education spoke to and I spoke to, I wanted to ask the Deputy Premier if the Premier and which the minister will know. others received an advance copy of the report? Th e government then decided to withdraw that mo- [1530] tion that they had sent to us and that they were going to proceed with. Clearly, we now understand, given how Hon. R. Coleman: Th e answer to the member's ques- they were engaging in this discussion, including in the tion, whether the Premier got an advance copy specif- Premier's offi ce — seeing these motions not as what they ically to her: no. Cabinet was briefed in the morning in ought to be, which is a collective experience, but as a par- cabinet on the report by Mr. Dyble, which obviously is tisan expression of the Liberal Party — that they with- not unusual for cabinet — to be briefed on a report like drew those motions for, presumably, a better time. Th at this. Th ere were no discussions about anything other better time was going to be in the session leading into than: this is the information; this is the report. Th en it the election. was immediately taken out and released to the public. [1535] Th en subsequently, of course, the government ran into A. Dix: Just one fi nal point on the inducement e-mail. this event and then blamed…. No less a voice, a clarion Th e minister, the Deputy Premier, just confi rmed that voice, than the Premier claimed that the plan for the apol- Mr. Dyble read the e-mail. I know that when I read the ogy was cancelled because of the NDP — said that in the e-mail, it was striking. It captures your interest. What Chinese media, said that all over the place, and one of the did Mr. Dyble do? issues they raised. Now, since we were going to actually debate that in Hon. R. Coleman: Th ey confi rmed through records this House — this question that is dealt with in the Dyble that nothing had been acted upon and no inducement report — and we were going to support that motion in had been off ered. May of 2012 that the government withdrew, obviously what the Premier was saying was false, and she knew it A. Dix: So it was Mr. Dyble's decision not to reinter- was false. view Mr. Bloy, not to reinterview Mr. Bonney, not to re- Th en we go through this period. We go through the interview the Premier, not to reinterview Ms. Welch. Th at election period. Remember, we're talking about the im- was Mr. Dyble's decision? plementation of the government strategy that they were 736 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

doing on these issues. What their actions subsequently sponsibility for legal advice to government. Th ose pieces confi rmed is that what the document said is what they there — quite frankly, that work was being done. I can't were doing, although they're not dealt with in Mr. Dyble's remember the exact details about how long that was tak- report. ing or what the time frame was. Th en the Premier confi rmed that in the session fol- To say that I would pull that back for any reason or we lowing the election the apology would be dealt with. She would during that session would be incorrect. repeatedly promised this. So just to begin with…. I mean, it's an extraordinary A. Dix: Well, a motion for Japanese internment came thing what the document produces and that the Premier forward, and we dealt with it expeditiously, as the minis- herself continued to use it for partisan purposes right ter knows. In fact, the Deputy Premier knows it was quite through the election, then committed that we would be a moving event, and we certainly didn't take any time. dealing with it in this session right now. We were given approximately 48 hours' notice on it, and Are we going to be dealing with it in this session, this we responded to it with the grace the minister will know. fallout from this report? [1540] It wasn't me who was asserting that the government Hon. R. Coleman: I can't sit back and let the member blocked it in the election campaign. It was the Premier, opposite make a number of falsehoods and statements of course, who was saying just that — saying that it was with regards to that particular apology in the spring ses- the NDP that was stopping an apology, something that sion of 2012. was completely false. We know it was. Th ere were issues in and around the time frame with- What I wanted to ask the Deputy Premier, given all in the House at that time. I happened to be the House those events, given that they had an event planned…. Leader, so I know. I also know that an off er had been Th ey had a motion ready. Th ey withdrew the motion. made to the NDP to do exactly what we're doing right Th en they didn't present it in the next session. We didn't now, and that was to sit into three Houses so we could have a fall session, of course, and we continued on into get more business done, including the apology, during the spring session. Th ey again didn't present the motion. that session and handle the legislation. But on August 13 this group, led by the member for Th e NDP at the time refused to go to a third House. Richmond-Steveston, proposed and discussed the issue Th ey actually said no, and it would be a precedent they of the apology. Th ey discussed it in the context of…. For would never set. Th at was made very clear by your House all the apologies about December, we're now in August, Leader in the discussions in and around this. and they're back talking about it in the context of their I at no time as the House Leader was trying to do any multi-political strategy. timing of that particular apology relative to any elec- Are there any explanations as to what the government tion or any political agenda. So to make the statement was doing that came out of the Dyble report? Any ques- the member just made is wrong. I will stand on that on tions asked as to what that discussion was? my reputation, and I will not accept that portion of what you said. Hon. R. Coleman: Th ere are two responses to that. I'll We also said very clearly that the quick-win comment refer him to page 19 of the report, the paragraph at the in some of these e-mails was totally unacceptable to us bottom, where it says: and totally wrong, and we apologized to the ethnic com- "During the period of time covered by the review, regular gov- munity immediately when that came out, and you know ernment business continued, and some of these activities were that. captured in the strategy. For example, work had been done on the potential development of an apology on the Chinese head tax. Th is Relative to the legislative calendar, I don't have that work started years before the draft plan and carried on aft erwards. job anymore, so I can't tell you, Member, what would In fact, the planning for an apology had been underway for a come before the House, legislation or otherwise. Even if number of years prior to the meeting, and a review of the records I did, it would be an inappropriate step for me to make. shows that discussion had taken place between government and the opposition with the objective of providing an apology from the Whatever work gets done on something like that is ob- entire Legislature rather than any particular political party. Th ere viously a situation whereby the two House Leaders would is no reason to examine this work further, as it is an appropriate be discussing it, and I don't know whether they are or not. use of government resources." Th is is an unusual session. It wouldn't be character- Th e Leader of the Opposition wrote the Premier on ized as a normal session immediately aft er an election, June 28, 2013, with regards to this issue. Th e Premier because it really is about the budget. So for me to get into has written back on July 3, thanking the Leader of the that discussion would be inappropriate. Opposition for his letter of June 28 on the Chinese I can tell the member opposite there was also other Exclusion Act and the Chinese head tax. "This is, in- work being done with regards to the language in that deed, an important issue for us, and I have asked" — apology within another level of government, specifi c- the minister, our Minister of International Trade and ally through one of the other ministries that had the re- Minister Responsible for Asia Pacific Strategy and Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 737

Multiculturalism — "to work with the opposition mem- but I guess the election is over and her great interest in bers on an apology for historical wrongs. I appreciate this the matter has declined. Th e letter I sent her said: "You opportunity to respond to your letter." committed to it in the election, and it was not in the [1545] throne speech." It was not in the letter of expectation So she has responded to the member that we're going written to the minister, and of course it hasn't been pre- to work with you on this particular one. Like I said earlier, sented in the House either. the reason it didn't go ahead, just to be clear, was no pol- Let's just call that a broken promise by the Premier, itical motivation by the House Leader to withdraw it for aft er a broken promise aft er a broken promise, but also any reason other than probably scheduling and maybe the Premier executing the quick-win strategy by using something around language that had to be worked out that issue of an apology in the election campaign and with the Attorney General's offi ce, or whatever the case throughout the period leading into the election cam- may be, at the time. paign. I see the Opposition House Leader is listening intent- What they proposed in November of 2011 they con- ly. At the time, I think there was also a concern that it tinued to do till May 2013, and the person doing it was was moving too quickly. It was short notice, and there the Premier. I think it's outrageous for them to do it on was a challenge with that as well because of the legisla- this question. For all of the disgraceful activity engaged tive agenda. I remember him being particularly strident in here, that one is particularly outrageous. at one point in time, telling me: "Well, you dropped this, Someone who has been working on that issue for a and then we've got this. We've got all this legislation, and long time and writing about that issue and concerned now you're going to do…." with that issue…. I just fi nd it unbelievable that the gov- Of course, it's one of those conversations we would ernment would do that in December and August and have as House Leaders that wasn't particularly aff ecting the Premier herself would continue with that aft er and that particular issue in the House, but there was concern through the election campaign, including misleading about how we would get there and get it done. At the comments that we know. Now one more broken promise same time, it was a session with a lot of other stuff going on the same question, if you can believe it. on in it. We did try and get it done in the spring of 2012. I'd like to go on to ask the Deputy Premier about the Subsequent to that, I was not in the position to deal with recommendations of the Dyble report. Can he tell us any of that, so I have no historical information from there what follow-through there has been on recommenda- as to how it went aft er the session in the spring of 2012. tion 1? [1550] A. Dix: It is obvious, based on our response to the motion with respect to the apology for Japanese intern- Hon. R. Coleman: Recommendation No. 1 is: "Th e ment, that it's not the fault of the opposition. It was the chief of staff should consider the involvement and cred- government that failed. And it was the government at ibility of each of the political staff engaged in the events the August 13 meeting — where a multiculturalism staff , discussed in this report and take appropriate disciplinary the professional staff , the longtime staff were excluded — and corrective action. Th ese actions must consider other where they were actually discussing this question. Th ey appropriate factors, including the level of their partici- were discussing political issues and the multiculturalism pation, authority in the organization and their employ- political strategy of the government. So they were follow- ment record." ing through on the report from December in August on Th e status: recommendation No. 1 is complete. Th e that very question. chief of staff has taken the appropriate disciplinary and I have to say that to describe that as not edifying is corrective action where appropriate. In most cases, the to be generous. But I'm inspired by the member for individuals who were identifi ed as having acted inappro- Vancouver-Quilchena. priately had already resigned prior to the outcome of Th e fact of the matter is, given what the minister just the investigation. It would be inappropriate to comment said, that the Premier asserted that the plan for the apol- further on personnel issues, and the member knows we ogy was cancelled because of the NDP. Given what the don't do that in government. minister just said, that of course was completely false. Th e Apart from "the employees specifi cally named in the Premier continued to campaign on this question, consist- analysis and conclusion sections of the report, the re- ent with the quick-win strategy document, right through view team found that other employees identifi ed acted the election, right? Started in December, continued on, with integrity and in an exemplary manner in all aspects part of their political meetings — continued to do it right of their work and their involvement with the issues dis- through to the election, where she continued to assert cussed in the report." that it's the NDP to blame. Is it the NDP to blame now? She specifi cally promised A. Dix: As the Deputy Premier will know, there was a it would be dealt with in this session of the Legislature, specifi c fi nding in the report of downloading of e-mails 738 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

by one of the staff , Fiera Lo, and another of the staff , ual who's holding that job in a minister's offi ce. Brian Bonney. Mr. Bonney, of course, has not returned. Ms. Lo, I believe, continues to serve and, arguably, has A. Dix: I'll just follow through on this and then return been promoted. to the report. Th e decision was made to increase staff Can the Deputy Premier, if he's not going to refer to pay. Was there a business case presented for that? Was specifi c disciplinary action, at least tell the House how this a decision made by the Premier? Th e minister re- many individuals violated standards? fers to his support for the idea of the chief of staff . Did he support the pay increases? Did the Premier support Hon. R. Coleman: Th ose individuals are actually list- the pay increases, and did she implement those, and why ed in the report under "Analysis and conclusions," under did she do so? "Code of conduct," on page 26 and partly on page 27 of the report. Th at was obviously given to the chief of staff , Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, the people that work who took the appropriate disciplinary and corrective ac- in government particularly, as the member opposite will tion as a result of that information in the report. be well aware, and the people that work in the role in a minister's offi ce — particularly at the chief-of-staff level, A. Dix: Can the Deputy Premier tell us the progress as we call it, which formerly would have been called an on recommendation 2? MA's position — put in a lot of hours and a lot of work. I think what was trying to be accomplished here within Hon. R. Coleman: I can certainly do that. the budget, because there was no increase in the cost of Recommendation No. 2 is: "Th e chief of staff should set the budget, was to recognize that — with some adjust- expectations for all political staff to ensure that all fi nan- ment for people's experience and time by trying to do cial and administrative policies of government pertaining that in a diff erent grid, I guess you would call it, rela- to procurement, records management and the super- tive to pay. vision of government contractors are followed without At the same time, I think we heard loud and clear that exception." British Columbians didn't like it. Th at was heard loud Th e status of recommendation 2 is that it is in progress. and clear, and frankly, sometimes leadership is in lis- Th e Premier's chief of staff has established his expecta- tening and fi xing things. So the pay scales for the chiefs tions with each ministerial chief of staff with respect to of staff , including in the Premier's offi ce, went back to how each will conduct themselves, both in and outside where they were before, which means that the budget is the workplace. He has also made it clear to ministerial lower than it was. chiefs of staff that each of their respective reports will Th e Premier's deputy chief of staff received a 10 per- be judged against the same standard. An interim code cent pay cut and will still maintain her additional respon- of conduct has been developed and, once fi nal, will also sibilities that she has. Th e chief of staff , as the member be made public. knows, is also a pretty respected, longstanding public [1555] servant who has an understanding of the workings of government. Th e change of the grid, along with the titles, A. Dix: Was the creation of ministerial chiefs of staff didn't mesh with, basically, what we heard from other and the subsequent pay increases, which of course was folks. So the Premier made the decision that it would go the first action of the government after the election, back to the way it was before. viewed as part of the response to the recommendation [1600] of the Dyble report? A. Dix: To follow on that, though, the position of dep- Hon. R. Coleman: It wasn't in direct correlation to the uty chief of staff , which went to the Premier's deputy report. I know that when this was discussed, I supported campaign manager, received a signifi cant boost. the change in title. You know, one never wants to confl ate things unfairly I think that one of the things that's confusing in gov- — so just to ask the Deputy Premier whether there was a ernment — and has been, as a minister for the last 12 business case presented of any kind supporting the idea years — is that I would deal with a person doing a simi- of paying the Premier's deputy chief of staff more than lar role in another minister's offi ce, both provincially and the chief of staff to the President of the United States. federally across the country, and the title of the individ- ual who's doing that same role in my offi ce would be an [R. Chouhan in the chair.] MA and theirs would be a chief of staff . I think that it actually does, though, create a single Hon. R. Coleman: Th e deputy chief of staff , as the point of accountability for the responsibility of the people member knows, was rolled back in this process to a dif- in the offi ce. I think it does clarify for the people's under- ferent salary level. Th e decision to put her where she was standing, from the outside, what the role is of the individ- would have been the chief of staff 's decision, relative to Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 739

looking at the change in the job. Th e deputy chief of staff of things — so people have direct input and conversation saw an increase because her role encompasses not only with government. Review and update the inventory of the work of the former deputy position but also an addi- stakeholder groups that interact with government. And tional role as the director of policy. review invitations to public events to ensure that govern- So there is more job work added to this — formerly ment is properly being represented — and, by the way, in the position of deputy chief of staff with a diff erent people, I would assume. administrative and oversight role with regards to staff in Th e director of community and stakeholder relations. the Legislative Assembly, which has also changed. Th ere's Reporting relationship — the director of community and more work and more responsibility in this role than there stakeholder relations reports to the deputy chief of staff , was in the past. However, it has been put back at a level policy and operations. Th e role is.... Th ey're responsible that I think is…. Well, it's reasonable for the work and the for the development, coordination, implementation of responsibility we're asking the individual to take. governmentwide community and stakeholder relations strategies. Th ey will work with ministers' offi ces on their A. Dix: It was only put back from where they lift ed it stakeholder relations strategy, including plans to better to, so the extent of the increase was reduced to $30,000. communicate, interface with and consult stakeholders. Th at's what happened. And, you know, I don't need to Develop effective framework for stakeholder rela- tell the Deputy Premier that many people in British tions. Develop targeted communication strategies and Columbia do two jobs. Th is is incorporating policy func- work with GCPE to better communicate with stakehold- tions into the job of the deputy chief of staff , which is ers, including but not limited to e-mail, social media, hardly, I think, shocking or requiring a $30,000 pay boost. newsletters and industry media. Work with GCPE on Just to fi nish up on this — we'll return to the recom- third-language communications. Develop and coordin- mendations of the Dyble report — can the Deputy ate with GCPE and caucus media strategy to communi- Premier tell me the distinction between the job per- cate more eff ectively in third-language communication formed by the director of outreach and the job performed media. Establish continuous information of in-language by the director of community and stakeholder relations? spokesperson and third-party validators. Develop and advise on Premier media availabilities and events with Hon. R. Coleman: I guess the best way to answer the third-language media. Update third-language media lists. question…. I'll give the member…. If you can provide me Assess structural deficiencies in third-language com- a couple of minutes, I will read in the job descriptions munications — i.e., translations services, web services of both positions. Th at might be helpful to the member. and things like that.

Interjection. A. Dix: Th e director of outreach is Ms. Pamela Martin. [1605] Is that right?

Hon. R. Coleman: Oh, they know. Hon. R. Coleman: Th at would be correct. Th e director of outreach is a reporting relationship. It reports to the chief of staff . It is responsible for de- A. Dix: Can the Deputy Premier confirm that Ms. veloping the Premier's "vision of creating open gov- Martin has been contacting or in contact with Ms. ernment by reaching out to British Columbians." Th e Sarrafpour since the election? director of outreach will listen, gather input, ideas and feedback from stakeholders, the public and other parties. Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know the answer to that Key responsibilities will include.... Dedicated to re- question. moving communications barriers and relaying messages to government from the province's diverse commun- A. Dix: Just to move on to recommendation 4 of the ities. Creating and executing the Premier's offi ce exter- Dyble report. The recommendation reads: "The legal nal stakeholder strategy, which would include things like services branch of the Ministry of Justice should take folks that would be wanting to invest in B.C. or trying to appropriate action to secure any government records do opportunities within British Columbia. Improve pub- in the possession of former public servants and caucus lic awareness and engagement. Ensure that communi- employees named in this report and seek an undertak- cations is a two-way conversation between government ing that these records have not been used for inappro- and the public. Help public concerns be translated into priate purposes." action by sharing with the Premier the challenges British Can the minister, the Deputy Premier, provide some Columbians are faced navigating government. update as to progress on this recommendation? Coordinate events that make members of the govern- ment accessible to British Columbians — i.e., telephone Hon. R. Coleman: Recommendation 4: "The legal town halls, Premier's town hall meetings and those sorts services branch of the Ministry of Justice should take 740 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

appropriate action to secure any government records A. Dix: Th ank you very much, hon. Chair. It's good to in the possession of former public servants and caucus see you in place there. employees named in this report and seek an undertak- I'd just ask on the issue of data in government, the ing that these records have not been used for inappro- transferring of so much data, presumably on to the priate purposes." Liberal Party, that took place here. Th ere are no recom- Th e status is it is in progress. Th e Deputy Attorney mendations about those issues in the Dyble report, and General immediately instructed legal services branch I'm wondering why not. Th ere was on the use of pri- to secure any government documents as expeditiously vate e-mail, which seemed to be a practice in this group, as possible. Most of the work is now complete, although which were essentially a group of the Premier's support- discussions with one individual are ongoing. Two indi- ers. Th e practice of using private e-mail — that issue was viduals named in the report have provided statutory dec- addressed somewhat. larations indicating they do not have any government But there were no recommendations about the cre- records in their possession. ation of e-mail, which the report speaks of, and, of course, [1610] we see now the government was actively doing in August. I'm wondering: why no recommendations with respect A. Dix: Can the minister then, Deputy Premier, con- to that? Has the government taken any steps on the issue firm that records have been repatriated into the gov- of private e-mail? Have they taken steps, including pos- sible recommendations by the Information and Privacy ernment? Presumably, if those records were not in the Commissioner? release of information by the government, can the gov- [1615] ernment seek to provide those records to the Information and Privacy Commissioner so they could be released to Hon. R. Coleman: Certainly, there has been work the public? done on this. On page 15 of the report there's a paragraph. I'll read it into the record: Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know the volume of infor- "While B.C.'s FOIPP Act does not specifi cally include or exclude mation that would have come back. My understanding is records created or transmitted using non-government e-mail ac- that some has, and others have signed statutory declara- counts, its broad coverage essentially includes any record that is tions indicating that they do not have any government created on behalf of a public body. As such, a record related to government business created by a government employee or service records in their possession. I would assume that a statu- provider would be presumed to be covered by the act, regardless tory declaration would have some legal standing with re- of where that record was located or the medium used to create or gard to people not being truthful about that. I'm sure the transmit that record." legal services branch would have a pretty solid statutory Subsequent to that, on March 18, 2013, the Privacy declaration they would be using. Commissioner announced that she was going to con- duct a review relative to this. I think she recognizes that A. Dix: So on recommendation 5, which is the review this is somewhat of a challenge because people do have of policies and standards of conduct, what progress has personal privacy with regard to their own personal com- been made here? What recommendations have been munication and they do have personal e-mail addresses, both at home and sometimes on another device, because made for potential legislative changes as per the recom- they're trying to actually accomplish the opposite, which mendation? is not to blend personal e-mails on government e-mail addresses but try and keep them separate, which is what Hon. R. Coleman: Recommendation No. 5 is: "Th e I try to do. head of the Public Service Agency should conduct a re- Th is is what she said she's going to do. view of the various policies in place to govern the stan- "First, I have directed my staff to conduct a preliminary inves- dards of conduct for both political and public service staff tigation into the activities described in the multicultural strategic across other Canadian and international jurisdictions outreach plan, including alleged information-sharing between and make recommendations to the cabinet on potential public servants and the B.C. Liberal Party. We will review all rel- evant records and meet with parties involved in order to determine legislative and policy changes in B.C." whether a formal investigation is required under the Freedom Th e status of this is that it's substantially complete. of Information and Privacy Act and the Personal Information We've reviewed the policies in place in other provinces Protection Act, which apply to political parties. and found that they are facing many of the same cir- "Second, my offi ce is doing additional fact-checking in relation to my recent investigation report on 'no responsive records' replies cumstances as British Columbia. Interim standards of by the B.C. government to general access-to-information requests. conduct have been developed and have been provided Staff will also do follow-up work regarding the use of personal to political staff . Further training and performance man- e-mail accounts in relation to freedom-of-information requests agement will ensure that they are thoroughly understood. canvassed in that report. "Th ird, my offi ce has today released detailed guidance that de- scribes the applicability of B.C.'s freedom-of-information law to Th e Chair: Member. personal e-mail accounts and the risks presented by the use of such Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 741

accounts for government business. I encourage all public bodies to quest in March, relative to e-mails going back whatever read this guidance and implement policies for the use of personal period of time. I would imagine that everybody manages e-mail accounts by employees as soon as possible." their personal e-mail a bit diff erently, which is obviously I know that as a minister I have been personally briefed a reason why the Information and Privacy Commissioner on the third point, as to the use of personal e-mails, and was taking a look at this and why we're developing policy I know that my staff have as well, because that guidance around it so that we can have some clear guidelines for was part of what the commissioner felt should be looked people to follow in the future. at here and dealt with. We welcome her work, and we wait for the results. A. Dix: Of course, the e-mail was sent, fortunately, to Mr. Bonney on his government e-mail but appears not A. Dix: Just on that point of personal e-mail, it was to have made it, in spite of its signifi cance to the issue shown before the Dyble report was commissioned by the at hand. Premier that the then Minister for Multiculturalism was I'm going to very much disappoint the Deputy Premier using his personal e-mail account. Was that personal e- and his team right now by asking some questions on mail account searched for documents and information? some other issues that have captured my interest. I know [1620] that, presumably, the Deputy Minister to the Premier would like to hear his own name more in the House, but Hon. R. Coleman: As part of the review, all ministry I'm going to have to disappoint him for the next hour offi ces were asked for information, including anything of and 15 minutes or so. record that would have dealt with government business I'm going to have to disappoint him, because there are, on personal e-mail. of course, many, many other questions to be asked. One feels like we should extend hours tonight to midnight or A. Dix: But the e-mail address — the personal e-mail 2 a.m. so that they can all be asked. of the minister — wasn't searched? Interjection. Hon. R. Coleman: When we made the request with regards to any government business on personal e-mail, A. Dix: I presume we can do that with unanimous they would have had to provide the information related consent. Th at was the suggestion of my friend from Port to that request. Coquitlam. As the Deputy Premier will know, in the fall the A. Dix: Yet the personal e-mail that we released to the Premier did a series of infomercials on skills training. House today wasn't — that we can determine, having In the subsequent budget, there was no indication that read all 10,000 pages and looked through them over and there was any impact of those infomercials or that they over again — on that list. So is the Deputy Premier saying learned anything. that the current Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Th ose infomercials were a response to focus groups of Justice didn't forward that e-mail? conducted by Ipsos-Reid for the government and paid for by taxpayers in the fall of 2012. Th ose focus groups, sig- Hon. R. Coleman: When the request is made, the min- nifi cantly, involved questions — and a signifi cant amount ister or staff have to provide the information they have of time with questions — regarding the Premier's own available relative to any communication on government personal and political image. business on their private e-mail. Th at's the best answer I So I wanted to ask the Deputy Premier if the govern- can give you to your question. ment would forward records around those focus groups to us so that we could see them. Secondly, how much A. Dix: So the government can't confi rm. Presumably time in those focus groups was spent on the Premier's the minister, now the parliamentary secretary, wrote image? Th irdly, how much money was spent on those the e-mail. He provided it to Mr. Bonney. It wasn't ad- focus groups? dressed in the report. Presumably, either it was missed, [1630] or he didn't forward it. Th ose are the only two possible answers. Or a third, I guess, is it could have been com- Hon. R. Coleman: I do not have that information pletely redacted. But it's hard to imagine, reading the e- here for the member opposite, because the Premier's of- mail, why that would be. fi ce did not do the focus groups. Th e work was done by [1625] GCPE, which falls under the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services, whose estimates have Hon. R. Coleman: Well, we can't confi rm because we not been brought before the House. I would suggest that don't have the e-mail and we don't know how the indi- to follow that through, he might want to ask the minister vidual was managing his private e-mail prior to the re- responsible at that time. But the Premier's offi ce was not 742 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

involved in the focus groups, and they weren't done by the Advanced Education budget. the Premier's offi ce. Th ey were done by GCPE. We had the government willing to spend — perhaps out of contingencies; I don't know — to put the Premier A. Dix: How is it possible that focus groups paid for on television to talk about skills training but actually cut by taxpayers would be dealing with the Premier's image skills training. Th at seems unusual. Why was the Premier at all? Th at's the question. One of the follow-throughs personally featured in those ads? to those focus groups was TV infomercials. Th e Premier [1635] was on Global television and, I think, other networks ad- dressing the issue of skills training, which subsequently Hon. R. Coleman: I think the leader of the province saw no changes in the following budget in terms of its should also be someone that tells British Columbians…. budget. Th ey can be a person that can provide very eff ective com- If the minister doesn't want to address the focus munication on the information to people of the province. groups, can he address the Premier's participation, which At the same time, just in the fi rst half of 2013 there is within the Premier's vote, in those infomercials? What were 150,000 visits to bcjobsplan.ca, about 800 people did the government achieve, other than getting the per day, to learn about B.C.'s economic advantage and Premier on TV, paid for by taxpayers? What changes skills-training resources. Th at's nearly three times more occurred in policy around skills training in the months visitors than the same time period in 2012. People are following those infomercials that justifi ed that govern- really interested in the future of B.C., and the number of ment expenditure? bcjobsplan.ca page views for the fi rst six months of 2013 was 340,000 — an increase of more than 126 percent Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, I think it's import- from the same period in 2012. ant that we communicate with British Columbians. Th e Relative to the member's comments with regards to February 2012 budget was clear that it would communi- skills training and budgets, we have to not just think cate with B.C. during these uncertain economic times. about the dollar that's put into something but the eff ect- Th e advertising was a continuation of those eff orts. It was iveness of the dollar. Are we training people the right way also about letting people know of programs that were go- today? Can we streamline how that process takes place? ing to be coming or investments we made in programs If somebody can get distance education and get a degree with regards to skills training. from a university…. Over the next decade there will be more than one mil- Can somebody actually be on a jobsite and take it in lion job openings in B.C., of which 430,000 — about 43 the evenings — skills towards a particular qualifi cation percent — are expected for trades and technical occupa- relative to the industry that they're in? I can tell the mem- tions. Th at's why we're committed to building and ex- ber opposite that in the automotive industry, that is com- panding a skilled workforce. monly done for training for people who want to qualify At the same time we need to let people know, through for air-conditioning and mechanics — whatever. Th ey the advertising and information, where they can get skills want to get additional training, and they can actually go advice, fi nd work and learn how B.C.'s economic assets into the boardroom of the dealership they're in, go on support business investment, and combine that into a line, take a tutorial and add to their skills. focused relationship to attract investment, create jobs We need to wake up to how we deliver that. That and manage the future relative to training right across doesn't necessarily mean more money; it means more the broad spectrum. effective training. I know that we've challenged our- Obviously, the member would know that we have fa- selves to make sure that we do that — to make sure that cing us, fi rst of all, an aging workforce that will come we are streamlining the process to how we do that and through a number of industries like mining and forest- how we're going to coordinate across the education sys- ry, which will require people with technical skills. At the tem, the post-secondary education and the skills-training same time we have opportunities in front of us like lique- system, to get the results we're going to need for the next fi ed natural gas that will also require some innovation on generation. training and information for the public. I think it's important that that is all combined into in- A. Dix: The Chamber of Commerce, the B.C. formation that we provide to the public through use of Federation of Labour — people were talking about the advertising in that way. skills shortage ten years ago, and the government missed the boat. Th ey've been missing the boat in recent years. A. Dix: Why did those ads, which were supposed to But they found the cash not to actually train people but feature programs, feature the Premier instead? Why was to have the Premier personally go on TV — week aft er there no change…? In fact, the continuation, if you look week, on Global Television — with expensive ads and at the ITA budget cut in 2014-15…. Of course, that's re- talking about it. lated to the labour market agreement. Th ere are cuts in Th e questions we have are: why, when you are engaging Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 743

those kinds of practices, would you waste money that time as allowing the treaty process to proceed, recogniz- way? Why, when there are scarce public resources, are ing that in order to provide quicker economic opportun- you using focus groups to promote the Premier rather ities outside of that very complex process, you can build than address issues of public policy? relationships on revenue-sharing and other opportun- I had a question for the Deputy Premier on another ities for First Nations. topic. As I understand it, the Premier and the Prime Minister haven't met since January 2012. I think that A. Dix: Does the minister — this is, of course, in the might have been a summit with respect to a hockey Premier's responsibilities for IGR — have any reports game. Th e Prime Minister was in town for the Seaspan about progress around the Yale treaty — which is, of contract, etc. course, negotiated but not fi nalized? I want to ask him on the issue of treaties, and it seemed to not be mentioned in the charge to the new Minister of Hon. R. Coleman: We've ratifi ed the Yale treaty. I Aboriginal Relations. We have a number of treaties deep don't have the information in front of me about where it into the treaty process, but as the Deputy Premier will is with the federal government. I will attempt to get that know, we haven't had much success in that regard. information, but it's not in any of my information that I Has the Premier been in touch with the Prime have in front of me. Somebody will get the information Minister's Offi ce with respect to the slow progress of for the member. treaties, a lot of which has been related to federal in- We've always managed to work with the federal gov- action? Has she been pressing and supporting the B.C. ernment on the ratifi cation of these. Th ere'll be no diff er- Treaty Commission in their efforts to move forward ence on this one. I would believe…. It may be done, so I through the treaty process? What update can the Deputy will try and get that information for the member. Premier provide me on this question? [1640] A. Dix: Th e issue is, as the Deputy Premier says, that we've been in the current treaty process for 20 years Hon. R. Coleman: I don't take umbrage, but I'll re- and there hasn't been a lot of progress. We've had First mind the member that in the previous 30 years prior Nations in negotiations for 20 years. Is the government to 2001 there was one treaty accomplished in British planning any eff ort…? I agree with the Deputy Premier Columbia, that being the Nisga'a treaty. Since that per- that things such as the New Aft on Mine and others are iod of time there have been four treaties accomplished in encouraging initiatives. But as the minister says, this is British Columbia — one on Vancouver Island with the one part of the process. Maa-nulth, and the Sliammon, the Tsawwassen and the Is the Deputy Premier or the government intending to Yale. Treaties still continue to be part of the B.C. treaty pursue and give new energy to the treaty process, given negotiations. Th at's a part of the Ministry of Aboriginal the recommendations of the B.C. Treaty Commission as Relations and Reconciliation. well? Th is doesn't appear to be refl ected, at least in the The member opposite also knows from the experi- letter to the Minister of Aboriginal Relations that the ence of the '90s that it takes a long time to get to treaty. Premier sent. In the meantime, opportunities that could be there for [1645] First Nations and economic development and relation- ships are also very important. We're actually engaged in Hon. R. Coleman: Just so the member opposite knows, trying to also have relationships that engage with active in the mandate letter for the Minister of Aboriginal partnerships. I'll give the member a couple of examples Relations and Reconciliation on the second page, point where First Nations have benefi ted that may not neces- No. 2, it says: "Continue to work with First Nations to sarily have a treaty today. secure long-term treaties that provide economic benefi t Th e New Aft on Mine outside of Kamloops is an under- and security for all British Columbians." ground mine that has a fairly signifi cant ore body. It We haven't abandoned any process in and around that. is built. It's in operation. The relationship there was As a matter of fact, there are a number of treaties that revenue-sharing by government and revenue-sharing by are getting closer that I'm aware of, just by discussions I the company involved in the actual relationship with the would have had on diff erent committees in government. First Nations. In addition to that, a training and employ- Th ey're continuing their negotiations. Th ere are man- ment agreement has a substantial amount of the work- dates given with regards to each one of these. It would force at that particular mine as being First Nations. Th at's come through the Treasury Board, which I'm also a an outcome that was accomplished outside of having to member of. I've seen the mandates coming through tie it into a treaty process. there with regards to the negotiations on a number of Th ere are other examples like that across B.C. We think these treaties. it's important to be able to do both parallels — to work Over time we would hope that more will be done. Each on economic relationships with First Nations at the same one being successful would be our hope. But like I said, 744 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

it is a complicated process. Th e member is well aware of Premier claimed — and I'm going to quote her about the that. I am too, and I know that that's why you need both temporary foreign worker program — that it's outside to work together. Economic opportunities need to also provincial authority. She said: "It is a federal program. be available to be able to be done in partnerships at the I mean, they decide how they let in temporary foreign same time as you're trying to get to treaty in some areas workers. Th ose applications are made to the federal gov- of the province. ernment, and they adjudicate that." In fact there is a provincial role. To quote an immi- A. Dix: With respect to immigration policy, the gration lawyer named Richard Kurland: "Th e Premier… Premier said: "We want the same deal as Quebec has." misspoke herself when she implied or alluded to the con- As you know, immigration is a shared jurisdiction under stitutional fact that British Columbia is impotent when it the BNA Act and the current constitution. What steps has comes to foreign worker selection. Th at is patently false." the Premier taken? What has the response been from the B.C. has "abdicated its responsibility to the federal gov- federal government to this declaration made, I believe, at ernment." the Council of the Federation by the Premier and sup- In fact, there's more than that. Mr. Kurland goes on to ported, I believe, by the Premier of Ontario? point out that in the current Canada-B.C. immigration agreement — the current one, which is obviously very Hon. R. Coleman: For the member opposite's infor- diff erent from the Quebec one — it says that B.C. will mation, the federal government ratifi ed the Yale treaty continue to have a say in permanent and temporary im- on June 19. migration to the province. It further says, "Facilitating the On the immigration policy, the member opposite will entry of temporary foreign workers. B.C. will now be able know, because he's like me, that if he goes back in the to recommend the issuance of work permits," etc., based history of his family, he is the son, the grandson or the on the 2010 agreement. great-grandson of an immigrant. Th is country was built First of all, does the government acknowledge that the on immigration. Premier was wrong? Secondly, does the government plan Given the fact that our country has always wel- to play a more signifi cant role in this question of tempor- comed, whether it be the South Asian community, the ary foreign workers, who have been increasing, as the Chinese community, other ethnic communities as well minister will know, dramatically in British Columbia as Europeans to our country, we feel that there needs — over 330,000 temporary foreign workers in Canada, to be an understanding about how Citizenship and 74,000 in British Columbia, the second-largest number Immigration Canada is going to help with Canada's eco- in the country aft er Ontario, more per capita than any nomic development. other province? As we know, there are a large number of people that we We've had cases, obviously, that have been problem- would call the baby boom coming through, and they did atic in that regard. Th ere was an issue with Tim Hortons not have as many children or young people as the pre- in Dawson Creek. Th ere was the issue of Denny's, which vious generation. Consequently, we could end up with recently was the subject of a class action. Th ose are the a skills shortage or a population shortage for jobs that enforcement of provincial laws. But is the government would be needed, for people to fulfi l. We've used those planning to do what other jurisdictions do and play a programs relative to that in our farming sector and what more important role, given the fact that they have the have you to provide for the ability for those people to power to do so, contrary to what the Premier apparently function in British Columbia. believes? I'm not involved in the mandate that would be going on. But at this upcoming fi rst ministers conference — the Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, the program is a fed- Council of the Federation, I think they call it now — my eral program, jointly administered by Citizenship and understanding is that it's one of the topics on the agenda Immigration Canada and Human Resources and Skills that the Premiers will be addressing and, certainly, will Development Canada. Th ey are responsible for issuing be having a conversation in and around that. labour market opinions through which the department I do think that in a confederation jurisdictions should confi rms that employers have made reasonable attempts be treated fairly, the same as each other, because we are a to fi ll the vacancies domestically, while CIC, which is confederation. Th at would mean that the ability for one Citizenship and Immigration Canada, is responsible for jurisdiction to be successful in attracting, in the future, issuing the work permits. people we will need in addition to our own population [1655] to help build our economy…. Th at opportunity should We are working with the federal government. We be there for all the jurisdictions. understand that they are doing a review and are bring- [1650] ing changes to this program which I would hope could be discussed, I suppose, at the upcoming meeting, be- A. Dix: Recently on this issue of immigration, the cause this issue is on the agenda. As the member knows, Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 745

B.C.'s labour laws and workplace safety standards apply tion and other information when she goes to the Council to all workers regardless of their nationality or immigra- of the Federation or when she has discussions with the tion status in British Columbia, and they are all protect- federal government about plans for how we're going to do ed by a number of federal and provincial laws that apply things in Canada and, in particular, British Columbia in to their situations. the future, all with an eye that the jobs in B.C. will be for Th ere is work being done within the ministry with re- people in British Columbia to be the fi rst in line. gards to discussions with the federal government on this particular issue, obviously, because it's part of our skills A. Dix: Well, what the government is preparing to do training and skills shortage issues. We will create a ma- is crank up the number of temporary foreign workers and trix about all the jobs we anticipate to have, what skills cut skills training, which is what they've done. Th ey've are required. Jobs are there for British Columbians fi rst, been doing that for years. Our record with respect to ap- as will be the priority, for Canadians next and then…. prenticeship programs and completion rates has been in Obviously, we would like to fi ll all of the jobs with dramatic decline compared to the province of Alberta. British Columbians that may come forward, but as the I'm not comparing it to an NDP province. Th e perform- member knows, there are shortages in some labour sec- ance has been, shall we say, unimpressive on the part of tors. We hope to, over the next number of years, solve the government. those shortages by training and upgrading people and Because we're kind of at that time of the estimates, I being able to provide the skilled workforce that we're had a couple of specifi c questions around the implemen- going to need for the next generation and, at the same tation of the missing women's report and, in particular, time, also manage the movement of a large portion of our the replacement of Mr. Point, who, as the Deputy Premier workforce into what I guess would be described as retire- will know, was sought aft er to be chair of the advisory ment from their present positions today. committee, by the Premier. When will Mr. Point's re- placement be announced? A. Dix: Well, on this question, of course, other juris- [1700] dictions played a stronger role. In fact, B.C.'s role on the issue of temporary foreign workers, which has been to Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, I'd like to thank Steven facilitate even in cases where, clearly, there are people Point for his service and his commitment. I know that his in B.C. who could do the work, undermines wages and decision to move on was a personal one on a number of undermines skills training in B.C., not the other way levels relative to himself personally. around. Other provinces such as Quebec, who exert their At the same time, the Attorney General has been given provincial jurisdiction, unlike British Columbia, do bet- a mandate to continue the work on the recommendations ter in that regard in terms of their own workforces, in of the Missing Women Commission of Inquiry. We are terms of the impact of temporary foreign workers. working on the replacement now. I can't give the mem- I presume that when the Premier declares her desire ber a specifi c date or individual yet, but I do know that to follow Quebec, some action is being taken on that. work is ongoing and being done. Can the Deputy Premier give us an update as to what that might be? A. Dix: Well, I would just say this. I'm sure if the for- mer Attorney General, the Minister of Jobs, were here, Hon. R. Coleman: I think I described it, in part, in my she would agree with this. Th e progress, frankly, has been, previous answer. We are creating, in British Columbia…. well, nonexistent to date. Seven months, and we haven't Th ere's lot of work being done right across the spectrum seen recommendations put in place. relative to our future labour force needs and the skills we At the time, in the days following the publication of want — identifying the jobs we'll need, which may not all the inquiry report, I proposed to the Premier that both be identifi ed in today's workforce; where we would fi nd sides of the House get together to see if we could pass that skills training; and how we would have to change legislation stemming from the report in the session and our post-secondary, secondary and training system to in a non-partisan way — and just to say to the Deputy match up to those jobs, which we are going to be aggres- Premier and the government that that off er still stands. sively doing. I'm not sure if it's been responded to yet — certainly, not Th e Premier has given that mandate to the minister favourably. responsible, the Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills I had a couple of small questions for the Deputy Training. That ministry is working very aggressively Premier about commitments that the Premier has made. across government to accomplish this plan, which will Th e Premier — and there's no fund for this anywhere — come forward in the not-too-distant future and which said at the Vaisakhi parade this year that she was sup- will form part of our strategy going forward — to actually porting and would be delivering what's called an offi cial know the numbers and identify that. gate for the Punjabi Market. At the same time, the Premier will have this informa- She made that commitment, that the time had come 746 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

for there to be one at the Punjabi Market in Vancouver. Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, a quick scan of the min- Interestingly, that commitment had been made by a pre- ister's mandate letter — it doesn't have a number in it. So vious Premier, so maybe this is recycling. I don't know where that information came from. Just to the Deputy Premier: can he tell us what the But if he goes to page 19 of the Budget and Fiscal Premier's offi ce or the Premier has done to follow up on Plan 2013-14–2015-16, he will note that on that page, at that commitment to the people in Vancouver? the bottom, it says: "Further expenditure management." [1705] Basically, fi nding effi ciencies in government in '13-14 is $30 million, and the core review is pegged at $50 mil- Hon. R. Coleman: I'm familiar with the previous fi le. lion in '14-15 and at $50 million in '15-16. So directly I'm not familiar with this fi le. In the previous fi le there related to the core review, the minister was correct in were issues in and around design and location within the his numbers. community itself. My understanding would be, if we're proceeding now with the Premier's commitments, which A. Dix: Who is being selected by the Premier for the we will, that commitment will now take a form of, ob- core review team? We understand there are committee viously, some consultation with the community — what members, but who is being selected within the public the gate will look like. service for this team? Th e last time that took place there were confl icting opinions on what the gate should look like and even the Hon. R. Coleman: Th e mandate letter for the Minister materials that it should be built out of. Time has passed, of Finance indicates that he will provide the team of and I think probably folks are at the point where they people for the core review, and it will be led by the dep- want to get on with it. I know the Premier made the uty minister of corporate initiatives. commitment. I think it would be a very valuable asset to the mar- A. Dix: Are there terms of reference for this process? ket in the area and also to identify the area with regards Th e core review, of course, is diff erent, substantially dif- to that cultural importance of that area of the city. Th e ferent than the core review previously done. Th e termin- Premier has made the commitment, and we will endeav- ology is the same — presumably diff erent than the core our to work with the community on the consultation and review previously proposed. Will those terms of refer- come to a design and then proceed. ence be made available for public consultation?

A. Dix: But just to be specifi c, nothing has happened Hon. R. Coleman: Th ere has been a lot of work already since the Premier made the commitment prior to the done and some signifi cant meetings with regards to the election. terms of reference for the core review. We would antici- pate that in the next little while that will come forward Hon. R. Coleman: My understanding is the commun- to cabinet. When cabinet approves the terms of reference, ity has put forward a proposal, or some folks in the com- they would then be made public. munity put forward a proposal, and there are discussions taking place with regards to that. Th at will continue, and A. Dix: Presumably one of the tests of this core review I would imagine it would evolve into the broader level of process will be to assess existing government initiatives getting to the form design. that control costs. Will initiatives such as, for example, Th en you've got to deal with your permitting and your the therapeutics initiative be viewed in that sense? If we approvals within the city of Vancouver. But I would think have some of the lowest per-capita prescription drug that, as the member knows, the community would really costs in Canada, albeit increasing prescription drug costs, want the input on what this would look like. would that type of initiative be something considered in the core review? A. Dix: I'm sure the community would like to see some progress and not just commitments. Hon. R. Coleman: A core review is to look at govern- I just wanted to ask the Deputy Premier a few ques- ment effi ciencies and programs and, you know, that sort tions about the core review, given the role of the Premier's of thing. I can't speculate on the specifi c one the mem- offi ce in that review in terms of identifying the team and ber brought up, because until the terms of references are so on. Th is week in his estimates the minister respon- fi nalized and they're there, I can't…. sible for B.C. Hydro, the Minister of Energy, said his [1715] instructions are to locate $100 million over '14-15 and I'm not in a position to comment at what stage they '15-16, which is diff erent from the $130 million that the are, because that group, that committee, is not one that I Premier's mandate letter seems to suggest. am a member of. Although if I was a member of it, I still I just want to know: what is the accurate number? couldn't tell you what was being said in the committee if [1710] it was a cabinet committee. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 747

So they will come up with their terms of reference. As and the view taken, apparently, by the protocol offi ce in I said earlier, they will come to cabinet. Cabinet will re- British Columbia. Since we oft en do look to Alberta for view them and make the decision on their approval. At examples, perhaps the minister at this stage or at some that point in time my understanding is that they would point in the near future could provide a response. be made public, and at that point in time the member would be able to glean from those terms of reference what Hon. R. Coleman: You're right. I'm not in a position types of things would be on the table. to respond to it. You are on the record, and I will have somebody look into it. A. Dix: Well, will there be any role for the public in this process? For example, last year the government chose to A. Dix: Perhaps I could just propose a fi ve-minute spend $16 million out of the contingency funds on ad- recess. vertising. Presumably, most members of the public would think that that was non-essential in a core review. Is that Th e committee recessed from 5:19 p.m. to 5:23 p.m. the kind of thing that the Premier envisions addressing in this core review process? [R. Chouhan in the chair.]

Hon. R. Coleman: I think it's the same answer to the Th e Chair: Leader of the Opposition. member opposite, and that is that the terms of refer- ence…. Th ere have been extensive meetings on designing A. Dix: Th ank you very much, hon. Chair. It's good the core review. Th at is ongoing now. We would antici- to be back. pate that it's not too far away from having the terms of An intergovernmental relations question around the reference. At that point in time he would be able to glean proposed trade agreement with the European Union. from that what types of programs or expenditures would Can the Deputy Premier give us an update on where be looked at by government. we're at on some of those key questions? For an example, the Premier and the government, in B. Ralston: I haven't been able to give, unfortunately, its platform, said it would work to establish a minimum advance notice of this question to the minister. It relates 20 percent increase in small business procurement from to the Intergovernmental Relations Secretariat side and, government. Obviously, that would be impacted by any specifi cally, to the protocol offi ce. Perhaps if I could set off er by Canada to the European Union. out the inquiry. Th ere's no requirement to respond im- I'm wondering, given the deadline is continuing mediately. I just want to have it on the record, and when to shift, what's the status of the CETA negotiations, the minister or the appropriate offi cial is able to respond and when is the next round of talks involving British in the next little while, I'd appreciate that. Columbia scheduled to take place? I'm advised that the protocol office of Alberta is [1725] able to arrange for the representative Liu Chih-Kung of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Offi ce in Canada Hon. R. Coleman: Hon. Chair, I think the best way and Director General Michael Tseng, who is based in would probably be to give the member an update with re- Vancouver, to meet various ministers of the Crown in gards to that. We're very clear — and in our discussions it Alberta. Th e position of the protocol offi ce of British has been pretty clear — that our concern about procure- Columbia says that it will not arrange meetings by say- ment does not seem to be an issue, relative to the overall ing that the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in agreement. It's a small piece of the fi le. Vancouver is not a member of the consular core. Negotiations started in 2009. Specifi c outcomes re- In addition, I'm further advised that the director gen- main unclear. For example, intellectual property, impact eral of the Vancouver offi ce and the consul-general of the on health care and agriculture have not yet been provided People's Republic of China are both invited to attend the in detail to the province and territories. Th ese outcomes annual Alberta briefi ng for consular and other offi cials. will be assessed before B.C. would indicate support for I'm sure the minister will appreciate that there is some the agreement-in-principle. diplomatic sensitivity. Obviously, the People's Republic Once an agreement is reached, B.C. will, within 24 of China has a certain view of Taiwan. I'm not entering hours of the agreement being reached, begin to review into that debate. Th is is solely about the opportunity to with the intent to present fi ndings for decision on wheth- participate in an economic and business exchange with er to support the agreement or not. Th at is expected to Taiwan, which, in my view, would be to the benefi t of the take four to six weeks and will be scheduled for a deci- British Columbian and the Canadian economies. sion at the earliest possible date. As I said, the minister may not be able to answer So we don't have an agreement in front of us even to those questions, but I think it is a useful contrast be- have that portion of the discussion yet. Th en we antici- tween the view taken by the protocol offi ce in Alberta pate what is referred to as legal scrubbing, translations 748 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

and ratifi cation of the agreement — expected to take ap- We will formulate our position once we know they've proximately two years. Th erefore, the benefi ts and im- gotten to somewhere that we can actually have the dis- pacts of an agreement may not be realized until 2015. So cussion. In addition, of course, the Premiers and the it's a ways to go in all the discussions. Prime Minister will be discussing this at Council of the Some of my other previous fi les, concerns of British Federation. Columbians, were accepted relative to some of the pro- [1730] tection of things like our wine industry and that sort of stuff . We were in the discussions back when I was dealing A. Dix: Did the Deputy Minister to the Premier meet with other ministries. I know that there's been a pretty with each of the health authorities subsequent to the elec- reasonable conversation about those things. tion? And if so, what was discussed at those meetings? However, on the specific issue the member brings up, that will be assessed when we get the agreement-in- Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, he has. He's had discussions. principle to get a look at. Like I say, some specifi c out- He has met with them. He's identifi ed for them — ob- comes still remain unclear, and we haven't been provided viously, there was a change in the Deputy Minister of the details for either the provinces or the territories at this Health's position — his expectations relative to the stage to be able to respond. budget, obviously, building that working relationship, and will continue to meet with them on health issues A. Dix: Subnational procurement is clearly within going forward. provincial jurisdiction. It's one of the reasons we're at the table, obviously. Government has made a new commit- A. Dix: In terms of building that relationship, did he ment to increasing, essentially, local procurement. Has suggest to them that there was an expectation on the part the government's position within the CETA discussions of the Premier and the government that no further let- with the federal government changed subsequent to the ters critical of the government's position come forward Premier's commitment? from the health authorities and that there would be con- sequences should such letters come forward? Hon. R. Coleman: Only in the form that it's been ar- ticulated to the tables, our position. Th at position will Hon. R. Coleman: Certainly, part of the discussion continue to be our position as we go through the rest of was communication with the deputy and the Deputy the discussions. Minister of Health. Basically, that conversation was in and around that the one size really doesn't fi t all in each A. Dix: On the issue of prescription drugs, the costs health authority in the province of B.C., so communica- of pharmaceuticals, we had the discussion of this the last tion about health issues would best come from the in- time we were in estimates, I think. Is the B.C. govern- dividual boards and the CEOs directly and build that ment continuing to work with other jurisdictions to ad- relationship for direct response and ability to deal with dress the obvious severe impacts on provincial budgets issues on a region-by-region basis in the communication stemming from changes — at least, the proposed chan- versus trying to…. ges — to the patent rights of pharmaceutical companies In some cases they would all write one letter togeth- proposed in CETA negotiations? er, but as the member knows, having been a critic, that really doesn't cover health care globally, because what the Hon. R. Coleman: Th is is actually on the Premier's issue of health care is in Quesnel or Fort St. John or even agenda at the Council of the Federation. We have been Penticton is totally diff erent than what it is in Langley or working hard to address the cost pressures with regards in New Westminster or Vancouver or Vancouver Island. to generic drugs in the province. Anything that aff ects So it was really an encouragement to improve coopera- the province and territories — access to generic drugs — tive and good communication between those levels, is an issue that needs to be carefully considered. Th at's because we have a new deputy minister to build that re- why, like I said in my previous comments, the piece with lationship between the parties. regards to intellectual property, impact on health care costs and agriculture has not yet been provided in de- A. Dix: Did the Deputy Minister to the Premier, on tail to us. behalf of the Premier, express concern about leaks from Once that is done, we're going to assess it very quickly. health authorities to media or the opposition? We closely monitor this issue and are working with the B.C. Ministry of Health to address the potential impacts Hon. R. Coleman: No, he did not indicate that to that CETA could have for the province. Our Minister of those folks, about meeting with the opposition. International Trade has spoken directly with her federal counterparts regarding B.C.'s concerns about the poten- A. Dix: A question about the change…. It's obviously a tial for increased drug costs. central issue in the Premiers' meetings and the relation- Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 749

ship with the federal government, which is cuts to fed- est to British Columbians is followed through on, other eral health transfers. than expressing an opinion? [1735] Th e Premier has recently…. Well, the government has Hon. R. Coleman: I don't have the list of the Premier's expressed changing positions on this question, but I don't conversations with the Prime Minister or people in think there's any dispute that in the three years starting Ottawa, but I know that she has been raising it for well 2014-15 and ending in 2016-17 we're going to see very over 18 months since she became the Premier, and she signifi cant reductions in the Canada Health Transfer to will continue to do that. British Columbia — this aft er ten years where we've seen At the same time, our Finance offi cials are working very consistent increases that the government has bene- with the federal government pretty aggressively to make fi ted from and indeed British Columbians have bene- sure that this is dealt with fairly and to let them know we fi ted from. do not like the change across government that they're Th e Premier has expressed concerns about this. Can proposing. the government inform us as to how oft en they've met, [1740] how they've pursued this issue with the federal govern- Th is is one of those ones, I think you'll fi nd, that won't ment, and are there any expectations of success? Is the be just the Premiers across the country. It will be Health government's view the same as mine that these cuts in ministers. It will be Finance ministers. It will be ministers the Canada Health Transfer will have potentially serious of the Crown collectively who will talk to their counter- impacts in British Columbia? parts federally to let them know our concerns and to work on fi nding a resolution to the issue, not just one Hon. R. Coleman: Th is discussion isn't solely in the individual person. hands of just the Premier. It's in the hands of the Minister of Health. It's with their counterparts federally — with A. Dix: Of course, except that the change in the for- the Premier, with her colleagues across the country, who mula benefi ts some provinces and doesn't benefi t others. have similar signifi cant concerns about how the federal Is the Premier proposing to meet with the Prime Minister government is looking at this. on this central question of federal-provincial relations? It is actually the Minister of Finance who's also met with the federal Minister of Finance, and their offi cials, Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, she's planning to have an addi- with regards to it and made our position pretty clear tional meeting with the Prime Minister, and it will also that we're very concerned about the change in the for- be brought up by her and others at the Council of the mula and what gap could be created if that were to take Federation in a week. place. Th e federal block for health care right now is fully A. Dix: When will that meeting take place, and will the accountable to British Columbians because it's in our issue of the Canada Health Transfer be on the agenda? health care budgets for how it's invested in health care. Th at transfer currently increases by 6 percent a year. Th e Hon. R. Coleman: Obviously, it's a matchup of sched- equalization transfer to us is about $4.3 billion relative ules. I don't know her schedule, and I certainly don't to health care, about 14.1 percent. know the Prime Minister's schedule. Th ey will work out Th e thought federally is to think about changing how when it's convenient for the two parties to meet, and then they would do their funding and how they want to do it it will be arranged. per capita, and there are some discussions in and around that. A. Dix: Just to be clear, there's no meeting scheduled We're very concerned about it. Every minister who per se, but if there's a meeting scheduled, the issue of the has a relationship with a federal minister makes sure Canada Health Transfer will be on the agenda. they bring it up and makes sure they're aware that British Columbia has concerns. Th e Premier will be very much Hon. R. Coleman: Absolutely that would be the case. articulating those concerns as we go through with the As the member knows, the federal House will rise in the Council of the Federation and continue to work with the month of August. It's usually not a traditional time for federal government to make sure that there's not a dis- meetings of the Premiers and Prime Ministers. I honestly proportionate fi nancial hit to British Columbia. don't know what the Prime Minister's schedule will be or what his plans would be for August. But it is the in- A. Dix: Specifi cally, has the Premier done anything? tent that at the soonest possible moment for the parties I mean, they've voiced the concerns. The Premier is to meet, it would be on the agenda. responsible for intergovernmental relations. Has the Premier done anything — met with the Prime Minister, A. Dix: Just a couple of brief questions. Th e Premier taken steps to ensure that this issue of signifi cant inter- was the principal promoter within government as part of 750 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

an international trip that she engaged in seeking some- Hon. R. Coleman: The range of the opportunity, thing called the International Indian Film Awards in what it would cost to bid, what range we might go to, to 2012. Obviously, we didn't get those awards. We got an- bid were all discussed within government prior to the other award called the TOIFA awards. Premier making the announcement. We knew, basically, Can the minister confi rm that it was the government what that opportunity could be. Our strategy was part of of British Columbia that sought to change the date of our overall strategy with regards to India. I've met with those awards from aft er the election to before the elec- some very signifi cant companies from India recently who tion? want to make, or are interested in making, some signifi - [1745] cant investments in British Columbia. It's part of our long-term strategy on India trade — Hon. R. Coleman: My understanding is that no Jobs, outreach strategy, which includes the largest trade dele- Tourism and Skills Training representative requested gation in B.C. history with India; opening two new that the international awards be held before the election trade and investment offi ces, which nearly tripled our and that the Times Group and the provincial govern- presence in India; and opening a new Forestry Innova- ment mutually agreed on a date. We did not choose the tion Investment offi ce in India to support our forest in- date. TOIFA is the Times Group's responsibility. We were dustry. Right now our exported goods to India has willing to accept whatever date they ultimately settled on, increased by 104 percent, and our tourism has grown by and that was the date they gave us. 11 percent. [1750] A. Dix: I'm referring to the Premier's negotiation that We also hosted the B.C.-India Global Business Forum the Premier led. She announced this personally — the to support B.C. businesses that are interested in exploring intention to seek the International Indian Film Awards. new markets in India, which would not have been pos- Representatives of the International Indian Film sible were we not in our agreement, in our opinion, with Awards were pretty clear that it was the government of the Times of India, because that brought another oppor- B.C. that wanted to see their awards, which would have tunity along with it. been held later in the year, in April. Th e Premier obvious- Th e Premier, when making the announcement, did ly met with that group. Who in the government suggested canvass, within government, the opportunity. It was ac- that to the International Indian Film Awards? tually led by JTST, which was the ministry responsible at the time to identify the opportunities for things we might Hon. R. Coleman: Th e Premier did not participate in want to pursue in British Columbia, and this was one of any negotiations with regards to TOIFA. them. She made the announcement, fully aware that she A. Dix: So the discussions…. Th e Premier did not had the support of government. promote this question on her trip to India. She did not address this question on her trip to India — the issue of A. Dix: Is there any paper? Surely, there's paper — a attracting the International Indian Film Awards. She did plan, a signifi cant plan about the opportunity — prior to not raise this issue with people on her trip to India. Is that the Premier making the announcement, which I believe what the minister is actually saying? she made in India. Th ere's something there substantial. Th ere's paper — either a business plan or a business case Hon. R. Coleman: She announced our intention to paper — that the government would be able to provide pursue the opportunity on her trip to India, but she to us to show the work that was done prior to the Premier did not participate in any negotiations with regards to making this signifi cant announcement. It ended up cost- TOIFA. ing $11 million in public funds.

A. Dix: Presumably when you announce something Hon. R. Coleman: I have an extensive list of freedom- that's the subject of a review, there would have been a of-information information that has been released. I business plan. Th e benefi ts to the province would have do know that there were discussions within govern- been laid out. Before the Premier announced that they ment with regard to this. I can't discuss what cabinet or were pursuing this option, there would be a whole busi- Treasury Board presentations were made, because it'd be ness plan, a submission paper behind that. breaching confi dence on those particular forums of gov- Is there any information that guided the Premier to ernment. Obviously, the member knows that. decide that that would happen when she made that an- But I can tell the member that there was extensive dis- nouncement and that decision — a decision that ended cussion and information, and we've released a lot of the up in the expenditure, of course, of signifi cant money in information under Freedom of Information and Privacy. this fi scal year? One more question. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 751

A. Dix: Because we're reaching the end — not the end of time but the end of our time — I was just going to PROCEEDINGS IN THE thank the Deputy Premier and his offi cials for another DOUGLAS FIR ROOM interesting — not illuminating but interesting — session of estimates. Committee of Supply

Vote 10: Offi ce of the Premier, $9,008,000 — approved. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE Hon. R. Coleman: Hon. Chair, I move that the com- (continued) mittee rise, report resolution of the estimates of the Offi ce of the Premier and seek leave to sit again. Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. Dalton in the chair. Motion approved. Th e committee met at 2:31 p.m. Th e committee rose at 5:54 p.m. On Vote 45: ministry operations, $812,278,000 (con- tinued). Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. [1755] C. Trevena: Just continuing. As I mentioned before lunch, I have one last question. I have many more ques- Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported tions, but as we discussed yesterday, I will submit them resolution, was granted leave to sit again. in writing. I would hope, since the minister's staff has already got Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported all the briefi ngs material ready for estimates, that we'll resolution, was granted leave to sit again. get responses quite quickly. Th ey will be largely on sub- ject matters that we have talked about through the last Committee of Supply (Section C), having reported couple of days, just fi lling in some of the blanks that we resolution, was granted leave to sit again. weren't able to cover. My last question refers to an item in the service plan Report and that states that they want to implement "a state-of-the- Th ird Reading of Bills art regional transportation management centre." I would like to know what this is, where it is going to be, how BILL 2 — BUDGET MEASURES many people it's going to employ, what the cost is and IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2013 under whose authority it is going to operate. [1435] Bill 2, Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013, re- ported complete without amendment, read a third time Hon. T. Stone: First off , as we start this section of ques- and passed. tioning for the aft ernoon, I just wanted to make an off er to my critic. I've heard a theme through yesterday and this morning with respect to just how much time there Point of Privilege is and a concern on the member's part about whether or (Reservation of Right) not she would be able to canvass questions within her own constituency. I know she's allocated lots of time for S. Robinson: Madame Speaker, I am rising at the ear- her colleagues. liest opportunity to reserve my right to raise a matter of I want to make the off er to you that following this es- personal privilege arising from the remarks made earlier timates process, if you would like to sit down with our today by the member for Vancouver-Quilchena. team to discuss any of your local projects, we'd be more than happy to do that. Further, I would be quite prepared Hon. M. Polak moved adjournment of the House. to send the ADM for highways up to your constituency in person to spend some time with you to talk about Motion approved. projects in your neck of the woods. Just wanted to put that out there. Madame Speaker: Th is House at its rising stands ad- With respect to the Regional Transportation journed until 10 a.m. Monday morning. Management Centre, as the member knows, it's in Coquitlam. It's a multi-agency building. It is built. It is Th e House adjourned at 5:57 p.m. in use. Th e whole point of pulling all of these agencies 752 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

together, really, was to build on the success of doing the Council actually commissioned their own review of the exact same thing during the Olympics — where all of the governance structure to provide some input into whether diff erent agencies involved in traffi c management and it was working, not working, a good design, a bad design. response and so forth are all in one building to ensure a Th at study had a number of comments to make. One much more timely and coordinated response. was that the unelected system that was set up was "unique All aspects of highway operations and incident man- in the world, and not in a good way," in that key measures agement will be managed out of this building when it that ensure eff ectiveness and accountability were missing, is 100 percent complete. We're talking about things like in the opinion of the people who did the review. managing the counterfl ow on the George Massey Tunnel Th ey went on to say that…. Th ey cited a discussion and the Lions Gate Bridge, everything on the Drive B.C. paper that says: website, all incident response, the message signs that are "…where regional transportation planning and service deliv- out on the highways. All of the above are managed from ery…have been severed from Metro Vancouver and…where regional economic development has eff ectively not been taken on this one facility. by any regional body, there have been concerns that the existing I should point out that there are approximately ten governance structures, perhaps in ways that are unique among employees that are in the Regional Transportation B.C. regional districts, are not capable of meeting the challenges Management Centre component, but there will be other of increasingly complex issues in the greater Vancouver region." tenants. Th ere are other tenants in the same building. Now, obviously those issues have to do with moving As far as the question in relation to costs, I don't both people and alleviating congestion on roads; meeting have the breakdown of the actual costs on the building. the government's own goals, as laid out in its 2008 trans- However, we'd be more than happy to provide you with portation plan; and in impacts on the economy from the that breakdown at some point in the near future. movements of goods and people. [1440] I'm just wondering if the minister or the minister's staff can identify any costs to the ministry or to TransLink that C. Trevena: I thank the minister, and I thank him could be attributed to the governance structure, both dir- also for the off er for further follow-up, which I will pur- ect — in so far as there has been some confl ict inherent sue with him and his assistant deputy minister. It would and failure to agree on funding models — and indirect, in be very useful. the delays and investment that, I think we all agree, need With that, I'd like to thank him for my period on the to take place over time to add capacity to the system and estimates. I will be handing over to my colleague from meet the needs of the people in the region. Vancouver-Fairview, to look aft er TransLink. Th en, as I [1445] mentioned, we will be having a number of other MLAs come in. Hon. T. Stone: First off , to the member opposite, I too would like to extend my congratulations. We're both G. Heyman: I'd fi rst like to begin by congratulating rookies in this. I know we're probably going to spend the minister on his appointment. some time together, moving forward. I appreciate your Th e work you have ahead of you…. I have been ob- forthrightness as well, and I look forward to working serving some of the estimates discussion, and I noted, as with you. many of my colleagues did, the sincerity and the eff ort In terms of the question, on the specifi c piece of the you were putting into providing fulsome answers and question relating to if we believe that there have been detail as requested. costs attributable to the current governance model that in Notwithstanding the fact that we obviously disagree some way have constrained or caused some pressures on on some approaches to issues about TransLink, I'm TransLink's ability to deliver on its operations, we don't hopeful that that trend will continue in terms of answers believe that that's the case any more than it was with the that will be useful for the public aff ected in the Metro last governance model. Governance has a price tag, and Vancouver region. And who knows? Perhaps, even, some I think it's part of running an organization. Th ose costs of the questions I ask or some of the points that I raise need to be factored in. will lead to some ideas that may be useful to you, as you I will step up one level, though, and I will acknow- move forward. ledge — and I have said this several times over the last I want to begin with some questions about TransLink fi ve weeks — that we in government believe, as the may- governance. Th e minister has stated that working with ors do, that the current governance model is broken. It the Mayors Council and Metro Vancouver and discuss- doesn't work well. Th e previous governance model was ing governance issues is one of his priorities. I'm sure it's broken also and had its challenges. also a priority for the mayors. My off er to the mayors in Metro has been clear and Th ere has been a lot of concern about the governance consistent from the moment I was appointed the Minister structure since the change in 2008. Th ere was enough of Transportation. I think we have a unique opportun- concern about the governance structure that the Mayors ity with a new government, a new minister, to sit down Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 753

and have a frank and open discussion about how we can portunity to advance a funding model to improve the fi x the governance model, put a new governance model system has been, essentially, quashed by actions of the in place at TransLink that will ensure decisions on con- provincial government. tinued improvements and enhancements are made in a Having said that, and noting that the Auditor General timely fashion and to the best interests of those who live said that the government can't meet the targets it set in in the Metro region. its own transit plan, can the minister say what steps he At the end of the day, we all want the same thing. I and the ministry will be planning to actually address that know the member opposite does and, certainly, our gov- shortfall in the targets, to revise the targets or to step up ernment. I know the mayors are sincere as well. We all activity in a last-ditch eff ort to meet those targets? want to see continued investments and improvements [1455] in the transit system throughout the Lower Mainland. I'm pleased to remind the member that I met with the Hon. T. Stone: First off , I don't want to put words chair and vice-chair of the Mayors Council last week. in the member opposite's mouth, but I think at the be- We had a very frank discussion about the challenges fa- ginning of his question he alluded to whether or not cing TransLink, including governance. I'm pleased that TransLink and transit generally had the dollars necessary we came out of that meeting agreeable on one important to operate, let alone expand. fi rst point, and that was that we're going to roll up our I want to make it very, very clear. We believe that sleeves and work together on the governance. TransLink today does have the resources they need to Finally, I will note that we, as a government, have com- meet their current obligations and their current service mitted to making changes to governance from a legisla- levels. In fact, very recently TransLink very publicly stat- tive perspective, assuming all of the parties can come ed that they believe they have the resources they need at to an agreement, as early as the legislative session next the present time to maintain the service that they cur- spring. I look forward to working with the mayors as we rently provide. head down that path. At a higher level, our government continues to be committed to the transit plan and the goals that were es- G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister for the an- tablished in the plan to double ridership. We canvassed swer. Let me see if I can come at it from a slightly dif- this a bit earlier today. Ridership is increasing across the ferent angle. province. We're going to continue to make strategic in- [1450] vestments, where it makes sense across the province, in Before I do this, let me say that I, too, met with the chair transit expansion. and vice-chair of the Mayors Council, and they talked Th ere are a good number of success stories that I know about the challenges being faced. Th ey talked about hav- the member is well aware of. Th e Canada Line has been a ing some hope that with a new minister they could move raging success. With the Port Mann Bridge, we now have forward. But they were frankly very disturbed by delays transit going over that bridge for the fi rst time in 25 years, and problems that were facing TransLink, as well as the carrying 50,000 passengers per month. ongoing issues about the governance structure, and what We've got transit to Langley for the fi rst time. Th e I think…. Well, I won't put words in their mouths, but I Evergreen project is on time and on budget. Th at will be would characterize it as critical levels of dissatisfaction a new, exciting piece to our transportation infrastructure within their constituency. in the Lower Mainland. Having said that, let me go back to a recent Auditor Th e Cowichan-to-Victoria intercommunity bus ser- General report. First of all, if we go back to the 2008 vice has been very successful. Th e residents there are provincial transit plan, there were a couple of quite loft y clamouring for an expansion of that service. goals in that plan. One of them was to double ridership One of the best examples of all — again, I really like and market share in the province by 2020 and to achieve to highlight the examples outside of the Lower Mainland a 4.7-million-tonne reduction in greenhouse gas emis- — is in Kelowna. Th e rapid transit service which was re- sions by continuing to grow ridership and, rather than cently introduced there has been very warmly welcomed have the use of greenhouse gas–emitting vehicles grow, by the people of Kelowna and Westside. Th e initial pro- by getting people out of their cars and into transit. At that jections on ridership were that there would 10 percent point, that had a $14 million price tag. growth in transit ridership over a three-year period. In Th e Auditor General's recent report on B.C. Transit fact, the ridership increase has been 9 percent in the simply stated that the government is not on track to meet fi rst year. the ridership targets in the plan, that ridership growth Th ere are lots of success stories. Ridership is generally has fallen short of targets and that clear targets and col- increasing across the system. Is there still work to be done laboration are lacking. I would put forward that this is towards meeting our goals? Absolutely. Th at's why we're a result of continued stalemates between the provincial making these strategic investments. Some of the timing government and the mayors and the fact that every op- of new capital projects that are required in some of the 754 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

cases on the transit expansion side of things is dependent on where we go from here. We've got an outstanding or- upon our partners — both our federal partners as well as ganization in TransLink that is doing some exceptional local government partners — making decisions on their work in Metro. end and coming to the table with their contributions. Th e report that the member has referred to also had We're very pleased with the progress that we're making a signifi cant amount of praise for the current TransLink towards our goals in the B.C. transit plan. structure, in terms of its operations and governance and even the wide variety of funding options that TransLink G. Heyman: While I respect that from your perspec- has in comparison to most other transit systems of com- tive, as the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, parable size around the world. you're actually dealing with all the transit issues in the I'll quote a couple of these fi ndings from the report. province, I am forced by my critic role to restrict my "Th e scope and mandate of TransLink — including not only questions to TransLink. I'll be focusing mine on those, transit but roads, cycling, goods movement and transportation demand management — are still seen as state of the art inter- and my colleague will be asking questions outside the nationally." area of TransLink's responsibility. Th at's pretty good. Secondly: I'm going to reserve for a few minutes some response "TransLink's funding sources are enviable in the eyes of many to the minister's commentary about ridership and ex- others because they are diverse and appropriate in that they refl ect pansion and growth in the system because I want to fi n- the user-pay principle." ish my questions on governance, and then I'll come back Further: to that, if I may. "Th e achievements of the present structure, in the form of the development of the urban transport system, are considerable and [1500] a source of justifi able pride." I appreciate that the minister has said that one of his I think there is a tremendous foundation to build on priorities is to work with the mayors to advise the govern- here in terms of what TransLink does and how TransLink ance structure. Th e minister has also made it very clear does what it does. We need to fi gure out a way, with the that his government has a fi rm commitment, as outlined mayors, for what improvements make sense so that the in the platform, to hold a referendum on TransLink fund- mayors, who are democratically elected within their re- ing out of, as they claim, respect for democratic processes. spective communities, have a much greater say in pri- Th is seems to be me to be at odds with the fact that oritizing the transportation and transit improvements they've actually removed democratically elected local within Metro. Th at's ultimately where we want to get to politicians with responsibility for transit from direct with this. input into the board itself. Th e mayors have been united I do believe that the fi rst step…. Th e vice-chair and the in their dislike of this structure. It has caused tension. chair and I came to a common understanding on this. We How does this commitment to hearing the voices of all agree that the fi rst and most important step that we local people, with respect to TransLink funding through should try to take here, as we head down this path, is to a referendum, square with a fi ve-year history of remov- discuss new governance options, a new model for gov- ing their elected voices from direct input into the gov- ernance — perhaps improvements to the existing model, ernance and decision-making at TransLink, except by perhaps an entirely new model. a very indirect means of saying yes or no to particular I've said to the mayors and I'll say here again that I'm slates of directors? not ruling anything out. I'm all ears. Let's talk about this [1505] and wipe the slate clean and start from scratch if we need to. Hon. T. Stone: Again, back to the governance. I thank I believe that the governance discussion will provide us the member for his question. with the path to discussing the funding options. We've been consistent in saying, as a government, to Ultimately, we were very clear in the election campaign. the mayors of the Metro region: "Let's work together on It was documented in our election platform. Th e Premier this." I think we all acknowledge that there is an oppor- was very clear about it on the campaign trail, and we re- tunity here to make improvements to the current model. ceived a very strong mandate from British Columbians, Th e former model had a number of fl aws. Th e current including many in the Lower Mainland, that there will be model, without question, could be improved. a referendum to give the residents of Metro a say in any I think it's also worth noting, for the record, that last new funding options that are to be pursued. year we did off er the opportunity — in fact, we did it When TransLink is talking about $20 billion to $24 bil- through legislation — to provide the chair and the vice- lion, potentially, of transit and transportation improve- chair with seats on the board at TransLink. Th e mayors, ments, most of which…. I'm sure the member is familiar through their own deliberations and for their own rea- with the draft planning that's underway and what a good sons, have opted not to assume those two board seats. amount of those transportation improvements look like. Th at's their decision. I think we can all agree that it's not a matter of if; it's a Again, I want to focus on the future. I want to focus matter of when. Th en it's a matter of how. How do we pay Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 755

for these improvements? system is key to addressing transit needs in the region [1510] and the government's own transit plan, then time is, in I believe, and our government believes, that the people fact, of the essence. of Metro have a right to weigh in on that decision. [1515]

G. Heyman: Th ank you for your response. I think Hon. T. Stone: I absolutely appreciate the member's I would agree, and my colleagues would agree, that question with respect to accountability and transparency. TransLink is a good system and an enviable system but a Th ese are two of the most fundamental principles that I system with challenges that, in the words of the Premier think any well-functioning governance model must have. with respect to the Massey Tunnel, we need to address With that in mind, I'm not, however, going to prejudice because there is "not a moment to lose." Th at is actually the discussion we're having with the mayors by saying the thrust of my questions. what I'm in favour of or not in favour of, what I'm will- I also note that in the response you gave with respect ing to do, not willing to do. Truthfully, I haven't come to to praise for TransLink, I'm not sure that any of them any conclusions in my mind yet. directly address the governance model. Notwithstanding I have said very forthrightly to the chair and vice-chair that, I do appreciate that you have made change in the of the Mayors Council…. In fact, I've had a number of governance model a priority. conversations with other mayors — the mayor of Delta While I might disagree with you that there were fl aws just a week ago, a very fulsome discussion on this, as an in the old model, perhaps the main fl aw was that one of example. She has committed to working with us as part your predecessors simply did not like the fact that the of the process, moving forward. board disagreed with a project to which he was commit- I don't want to predetermine what might be con- ted. Th at's in the past, and we have the future to move sidered and what might not be considered here. I am a on to. man of my word, and I said to the mayors that we would My last question on governance is…. I appreciate that work on this together, roll up our sleeves, and we will get both your mandate letter and you have said directly to this job done. the chair and vice-chair of the Mayors Council that re- I would like to underscore that the TransLink fi le, this vamping the governance structure is both necessary and particular challenge — a new governance or improved a priority and that you're committed to it and that you governance for TransLink agreement on funding options want to work openly with them to that end. and putting all of the above to a referendum — is one of I would not want you or me to prejudge the outcome the top fi les that I'm focused on right now. of discussions that you would have with the Mayors From a timing perspective, I absolutely agree with the Council, but you did reference the rejection of the off er of member in terms of where I think he's coming from on two seats on the board that was made by your predeces- this. Th ere's not a lot of time. In order to come to agree- sor and which the Mayors Council rejected. I think, again, ments on some pretty challenging issues relating to both that is just a signal that nothing short of fundamental re- governance and funding, the chair and the vice-chair and form to which they can agree will satisfy the mayors and I have agreed that we are going to have some discussions enable us to move forward with the system. through August into September. We're going to meet Two of the number of fl aws that have been identifi ed again as early in September as possible, and we're going with the current governance system are — and these are to do what it takes, working through this fall, to make as very substantial areas of governance — one of account- much progress as fast as possible on this. ability, the other of transparency. Regretfully, I was not able to attend the Mayors Council I'm wondering if you, Minister, through the Chair, meeting yesterday, due to, obviously, responsibilities here could tell us on our side what options you might con- in estimates. But I will be attending the Mayors Council sider or you might think would be good ideas to address meeting in September when they have it. As I said, we'll these two issues in particular — accountability and trans- be doing everything we can on our end to expedite the parency with respect to a new governance model — and process here. any other ideas you might fl oat to the Mayors Council Ultimately — and I may or may not have said this yet with respect to governance or which you might be will- today, but I'll say it again, just in case I haven't — the ing to entertain if they came your way, not to rule out changes on governance, I really believe, will provide us a anything else. path to what the question should be on the referendum Also, I think, very importantly…. What would you and the discussion around funding options. say your timeline is for both having the governance dis- Governance and funding are intrinsically linked. Th ey cussions and reaching a conclusion to those discussions need to be discussed and understood and worked on and implementing a new model of governance? I think simultaneously. We're going to continue to encourage we can both agree that if governance is key to moving the mayors to engage with us one-on-one and in groups. ahead with the system, and if moving ahead with the We'll be talking primarily about governance in the short- 756 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

term, but the whole discussion around funding needs to We are committed to a referendum for the people of be linked into that discussion as well. Metro to have a say in funding options on potentially upwards of $20 billion to $24 billion of improvements. G. Heyman: Th anks to the minister for the answer. I How we get to that referendum question — the question just want to clarify a little bit. Hopefully, these are two itself, the process that we engage in as partners moving yes-no questions. One of them is: would I be correct in forward — is something that I very much want to work reading into what you're saying that your goal would be on together, collaboratively, with the mayors. to bring forth any legislative changes needed on a gov- I'm pleased to reiterate, again, that I feel good at this ernance structure by spring session — or a fall session, point that the walls are starting to come down. We're in the unlikely event that it isn't cancelled? starting to see engagement from mayors in the region on [1520] this. Th at gives me great hope that we can get this done. Th e other question is: did I misinterpret what you said as the possibility that the decision on a referendum G. Heyman: I simply say that I think your attitude and how it will be conducted and will be worded could of building a good relationship is commendable. But I be made before the governance structure is actually would say that if, on the one hand, we would have may- changed? In other words, those discussions would hap- ors who are profoundly dissatisfi ed with the governance pen concurrently. model and, on the other hand, mayors who are profound- ly dissatisfi ed with the proposal to put funding options Hon. T. Stone: Another very good question from the that they've been trying to tie down for a number of years member opposite. Again, the intent here is to provide now to a referendum, time would really be of the essence the municipalities within Metro with greater authority in moving both of these discussions forward. over the decisions that are made in relation to transit and Let me now move on to some questions about transportation improvements in Metro. TransLink funding in general and how they relate to the I would put it out there that I don't believe that author- referendum. ity should come without accountability. I think we would You stated earlier, in answer to one of my questions, be setting ourselves up for another failure if we were to that ridership was increasing and TransLink is meeting just deal with governance in isolation from funding or current service levels. If you'll indulge me for a minute, funding in isolation from governance. I think the two I want to give some, I guess, information that is at odds matters are very tightly linked together. with that from TransLink's 2013 base plan, issued in 2012. [1525] First of all, TransLink states that it was only able to go My earlier comments about dealing with governance through with 1⁄5 of its planned upgrades in 2012 and only fi rst is an attempt on my part, as someone new to this fi le, one-quarter of its planned increase in service hours; that who's not from the Lower Mainland, who doesn't have ridership growth in 2012 was 2.4 percent over 2011; that an axe to grind…. I'm not from White Rock or Surrey the ridership numbers are lower, as 1⁄5 of the planned or Vancouver or Langley. It's an attempt on my part as service was implemented in 2012 — that is, 1⁄5 of what the new minister to suggest a starting point for the dis- they had originally planned to do in TransLink; and that cussions. they'll only be able to deliver one-quarter of additional, Let's talk about governance. Let's see if we can come planned bus service hours. to some agreement around improvements to governance. In fact, the 2013 base plan notes a number of areas Th at was my initial message to the mayors. that they had planned to do earlier, in a plan that was I believe that following out of that discussion, short- issued barely over a year prior to that. Despite the fact ly thereaft er, a pathway towards consensus on funding that they've tried to aggressively cut costs and fi nd effi - may present itself. I don't believe that it would happen ciencies, TransLink faces a $472 million shortfall between the other way around. But I'm certainly not suggesting 2013 and 2015, and they have to make these following ad- signifi cant months of time between discussions on gov- justments to what was their plan for expansion to meet ernance and discussions on funding. I think the two growth in new areas of the province, plans for increased need to be dealt with as concurrently as we can possibly transit ridership and reduce overcrowding. make happen. Th ey had planned to add 306,000 annual service hours Th e last thing I'll say on this, as I think I've been clear to meet U-Pass demand and accommodate population thus far, is that I don't want to prejudice exactly what growth and overcrowding on key routes. Th ey have had this process looks like. I have said to the chair and the to jettison that plan to add those 306,000 annual ser- vice-chair of the Mayors Council, and the other mayors vice hours. that I've talked to since, that I'm all ears in terms of any [1530] ideas that they have as to process moving forward. I do They have had to cancel the Highway 1 rapid bus not intend this to be a provincial-imposed process on project. Th ey have had to cancel the full King George the mayors. Boulevard B-line to White Rock plan. Th ey have had to Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 757

cancel the extension of SeaBus service to every 15 min- I've mentioned several times now, Canada Line is wildly utes and an upgrade to Lonsdale Quay. And they have successful. We've got transit for the fi rst time over the cancelled full funding for major road network and cyc- Port Mann Bridge — the fi rst time in 25 years. We've got ling upgrades. transit out to Langley for the fi rst time in 25 years. Th ere TransLink has been very clear both in their Base Plan are many more examples that I could cite. and Outlook as well as in public comments in public At the end of the day, however, there remain some meetings and with elected offi cials — meetings I have at- signifi cant capital projects with signifi cant expansion tended with representatives of local government — that items. I know we all share the vision to make those in- it's all they can do over the next three years to maintain vestments. TransLink has detailed in the ballpark of $20 what they have now. In fact, they are having to reduce billion to $24 billion of additional improvements in the frequency in some areas and move bus hours from cer- Lower Mainland. We would like to work with TransLink tain areas and routes to areas that they perceive as having and the Mayors Council to realize that vision. a higher need because they're in more transit-densifi ed Th at brings us back to the discussion on governance areas. and funding options and ultimately providing the people Th ey have said that until they are assured that there of Metro with a say in the funding side of the question. will be funding of some sort or other available to them, We're making good progress. Th ere remains a lot of they simply cannot proceed even with plans they made as work to do moving forward, but we're committed to get- recently as the last year or two. Th ese plans were consist- ting to our goal of doubling transit ridership. ent with the provincial government's 2008 public transit plan, as well as the 2040 regional transportation goals. G. Heyman: I appreciate the answer from the min- My questions to the minister are: have the targets of ister. Before I move on to the issue that in many ways the province's 2008 transit plan been jettisoned? Have is at the nub of all of this, the issue of the referendum, I they been altered? Are they under review? Will they need just think it's important to read into the record part of to be reviewed? Will they need to be changed? Most ob- TransLink's base plan. servers believe they can no longer be met. TransLink's 2013 Base Plan and Outlook shows, from Of course, I ask these questions because the public 2012 to 2015, 8,000 fewer hours of bus service. If you ex- wants to know what the new plan is and when they can tend it out to 2022, as they do in their outlook, it's 35,000 expect to see a commitment to increased and improved fewer bus hours. transit service on existing bus routes, on existing rapid If you look at all forms of transit combined, there is in transit routes as well as the addition of new rapid tran- fact an increase from 2012 to 2022, but out of over seven sit where it's needed, both south of the Fraser and in the million hours, it's an increase of only 58,000. So I would Metro Vancouver area as well as in other areas of the say that we all have a lot of work to do to actually meet province. the goals of the plan and meet the needs of the region. I [1535] think we all need to take that work very seriously. I've talked somewhat about the Broadway corri- Hon. T. Stone: Th e 2020 B.C. Transit plan that was dor. We know that when the Evergreen line comes on last updated in 2008, which the member has referenced, stream, we're going to get added pressure at Broadway does contain our goal of doubling transit ridership. We and Commercial. Th ere are upgrades that are needed to do believe that we're making good progress on this plan. that whole hub, that station. Th ose are capital upgrades We've actually seen 59 million more rides since 2008, so that need to be funded, or we're just going to have even over the last fi ve-year period. Th at's a signifi cant increase more of a nightmare than we currently have, with the in ridership. lines snaking around the block waiting for the 99 B-line. Our government has worked collaboratively with People south of the Fraser point out that they have TransLink and the Mayors Council over the last number great needs. Th ey currently have about one bus for every of years. Every opportunity that we can to work with our 4,000 Surrey residents, while the Metro average is one partners on the funding side of things, we take. for every 1,700, and Vancouver is probably a little bit less Th e member mentioned the two-cent increase in the than that — somewhere around one for every 1,500. So gas tax that was approved last year. Th at was directly at there are signifi cant needs south of the Fraser, and it too the request of the Mayors Council. Th at was funding that is a growing area. was required to complete the Evergreen project as well Let me move on to try to clarify some questions about as to invest in some other additional expansion projects. the referendum. Earlier in your answering questions, you [1540] said, if I recall correctly, that it's not a question of if; it's a We have been responsive to the request from TransLink question of when. I took that to mean when we're going for additional funding over the years. We're continuing to meet the funding needs for expanding and investing to be responsive moving forward. Since 2008 our gov- in the TransLink system and infrastructure. ernment has actually invested $900 million in transit. As You've stated in the House, I believe, and you also 758 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

stated in a CKNW interview, that you did not want to about this commitment. Th e question, at the end of the predetermine the outcome of the language on the refer- day, would be one that was the result of the hard work endum — whether it would be a yes-no choice or whether and ingenuity of the mayors and the provincial govern- it would be a range of options. ment. Th e Premier stated during the election campaign that Th at's what we're going to do. I'm not going to specu- she thought that the citizens should have a say on wheth- late any further here in estimates. I've been consistent er they wanted to fund transit. It sounded — period — a through every media request that has been made on this yes-no question. subject, in the House, that we're not predetermining what During estimates last week the Minister of this question is going to look like. We're going to work Environment, the former Transportation Minister, said on it together with the mayors. that it would not be a yes-no question; it would be a range of options and that there was agreement of both G. Heyman: I appreciate the minister's answer, for as the Premier and current Transportation Minister on that much clarity as it's able to give. I will just assume from point. You've stated here, in response to questions, that the minister's answer that the former minister had not you don't want to predetermine the outcome. carefully reviewed the mandate letter or had not had the [1545] necessary discussion and that it was not an accurate an- Unfortunately, this is sowing confusion not only for swer, through no fault of her own. me and my colleagues but for the mayors, for the cit- I'll now go on to ask some questions about some of izens of the region and for anyone who's concerned about the mechanics of the referendum, just to test whether funding for TransLink in the future. the minister and/or the ministry have put their minds I'm wondering if you could clarify for us if the govern- to these issues yet. ment has a unifi ed position on whether the referendum Th ere will be costs involved in a referendum. Th ere'll is wide open or whether it will be restricted to options be staffi ng costs, advertising, administration, possible and not a yes-no question. arbitrating of disputes that may arise in the framing, consulting. Are there plans to fund those costs from Hon. T. Stone: I would be more than happy to provide government? Will there be spending limits? Will there the member opposite with the clarity that he's looking for be registration of sponsors? Similar to the provincial in- on the referendum question. itiative act, will there be a minimum-turnout threshold Five weeks ago last Monday I was sworn in as new the required for a fi nal decision? Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, and it's a [1555] tremendous honour. Shortly thereaft er, literally within hours, I was provided a mandate letter from the Premier. Hon. T. Stone: Th e mechanics of this referendum…. I will quote for the record my specifi c mandate as it As with any referendum, costs and spending limits — applies to this matter and the question that the member there is a whole range of things that the member men- has posed. "Working with the Mayors Council, develop tioned in his question — I agree are details that will need improvements to the governance structure at TransLink to come to light very, very soon. Th e staff in my offi ce and identify funding options to provide additional re- are working diligently on the mechanics of this referen- sources to fund transit in the Lower Mainland while re- dum. It's too early at this point to speculate or to divulge membering that any new funding source would need any details because, frankly, we haven't fi nalized any of approval from voters through a referendum no later than those details yet. the 2014 municipal election campaign." I can say that, recognizing the tight timelines that we're [1550] all operating under here, it's critical that…. As with mak- I have been absolutely consistent — as the minister re- ing progress soon on discussions around governance and sponsible for this fi le, for the fi ve weeks that I have been funding as well as the referendum question, we need to the minister — that I have not made up any predeter- make progress quickly on this question of the actual mination on this. I have not made up my mind. I haven't mechanics of the referendum itself. prejudged the question. I expect, and I'm advised by my staff , that we should I was very clear with the Mayors Council chair and have those details, those mechanics worked out over the vice-chair that we are going to work on this together. next couple of months. Th ere are certain aspects of those We're going to roll up our sleeves, and we're going to de- mechanics that the member mentioned that I'm very velop a path — governance, funding options, right in the much looking for some input from the mayors on as well. centre — towards this referendum question. I'll be discussing those points further with the mayors in Then we're going to come up with a question that the weeks ahead. meets the criteria of the mandate that I've been provided — and, in fact, the mandate we were provided by British G. Heyman: Th ere are two possibilities here. Th e min- Columbians through the last election. We were specifi c ister hasn't foreclosed either. One is that the referendum Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 759 will be held in conjunction with the 2014 municipal to the Mayors Council to ministry staff that are working elections, and another is that it will happen sometime on these questions, if in fact they are working on fund- before then. Has an assessment been done in the min- ing model questions and options? istry of what the costs of holding the referendum separ- [1605] ately might be? Hon. T. Stone: Th ank you to the member opposite for Hon. T. Stone: Again, referring back to my mandate his question with respect to funding options. I believe, if letter and the specifi c language as detailed in the man- I understood correctly, that the member was inquiring date letter, it very specifi cally states: "Th rough a refer- as to whether or not the government has done any work endum no later than the 2014 municipal election." Th e assessing potential new options — or options that would municipal elections…. Doing all of the work required to be considered or not considered and so forth. prepare the question and come to agreement on govern- Again, I want to go back to our discussion around gov- ance and funding options and so forth to hold the elec- ernance and around the referendum itself. As with fund- tion in November of 2014 is a tight timeline as it is. But ing options, we have not predetermined anything here. if we can all come to agreement on the matters at hand It's a very unique opportunity that we have — with a fresh before that, holding a referendum sooner than the muni- mandate, a new minister — to reset this relationship and cipal elections is certainly something that we're not going come together for an open discussion on funding. Th at's to rule out at this point. certainly what I intend on doing as the minister. I would like to highlight for the member opposite that G. Heyman: I appreciate the answer, but the minis- my predecessor, the former Minister of Transportation, ter may have misunderstood the question. I just asked made some excellent progress with the Mayors Council if the ministry was engaged in any assessment of the on the question of funding and, in particular, in defi n- costs, the actual dollar costs, of holding a separate refer- ing with the mayors some principles around new funding endum. I would add to that: whether the ministry was options. Th ese were very much developed in…. It wasn't contemplating absorbing those costs, seeing as the mu- the province imposing this. Th is was a very collaborative nicipalities and TransLink likely have no capacity to do eff ort —the former minister and the chair and vice-chair that themselves. of the Mayors Council. [1600] Th e four criteria were quite straightforward. Th e agree- ment was that these principles would form the founda- Hon. T. Stone: With respect to what the cost would tion of more detailed discussions, moving forward, on be of holding a referendum separate from the municipal potential new funding options. elections, again, back to my last response, the details and Th e principles were as follows: (1) the funding options mechanics of holding the referendum are being worked must be aff ordable for families; (2) they must be region- on by my staff . I do expect to have further details to be ally sourced; (3) they must avoid negative eff ects on the able to provide on that in the next couple of months. provincial economy; and (4) they must include land With respect to who would bear the cost, I absolute- value capture. I believe that these principles are still very ly appreciate that the mayors are looking for some clar- sound and form a good foundation for more detailed dis- ity on that point, and I certainly intend to provide them cussion on funding options. with that clarity in the very near future. It did come up With respect to the second part of the member's ques- in our fi rst conversation last week, and I do want to ad- tion — namely, would the Mayors Council have access to dress that issue with them and provide that clarity as ministry staff and resources as part of the work, moving soon as possible. forward, on governance and funding and a referendum? — the answer is yes, within the context of the working G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister. I would just group, which was, I believe, another success that my pre- like to enter into the record that if and when the min- decessor was able to achieve, with the Mayors Council, istry has completed work on either details of the ref- of course. erendum or costing of a referendum separate from the Th e working group consists of the chair and vice-chair municipal elections or options with respect to that, that of the Mayors Council and the minister. It's through that can be provided to me as the critic, I would appreciate working group that the continued discussion will take receiving them. place directly between the province and the Mayors I will ask if the ministry has been doing any of its Council. own work on looking at various funding options for Certainly, I am supported and backstopped by a tre- TransLink, or whether the identifi cation of options has mendous team and tremendous resources. I'll be bringing been left to TransLink or left to the Mayors Council or to the full weight of my offi ce to those discussions in sup- a working group. Given that the Mayors Council really port of whatever the mayors feel they may need so that has no resources or staff , has access or will access be given we can make progress on the critical decisions, moving 760 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

forward, with respect to both governance and funding. Th e committee recessed from 4:13 p.m. to 4:19 p.m.

G. Heyman: To the minister: thank you for your an- [M. Dalton in the chair.] swer. Your answer leads me to, one, a comment, and sec- ondly, my next question. B. Ralston: I have a couple of quick questions on the My comment would be that I appreciate the criteria handyDART service. Th ey are constituency questions, so that any new funding source shouldn't have a negative I can consolidate them into one question. eff ect on the economy. I think there are ample studies I'm asking the fi rst question on behalf of my constitu- available that show that improvement in both transit ent Sarah Neufeld. She's age 79, has serious mobility and some of the other road and bridge infrastructure, issues and uses handyDART service to see her doctor, for which TransLink is responsible, is actually critical visit her daughter and go to her church for Bible study. to the economy. Part of the need for TransLink funding She has some home support, which enables her to man- is to ensure that there can be expeditious movement of age her daily tasks. goods as well as people. She has expressed her concern that if the service…. I think this just further buttresses the case that we Th ere are rumours, and I think my colleague will be ad- need to move forward for economic reasons as well as dressing these, that the service may be ended or a taxi social reasons as well as reasons of quality of life and the service substituted. environment. [1620] Th e other comment you made was that the funding What she has found, on the rare occasions when she should be regionally sourced as one of the criteria for does use taxi service, is that the drivers don't get out of funding. My presumption, then, is — and I will ask the the car. Th ey don't help her. She walks with a walker. It's minister to confi rm that my assumption is correct — that generally, she feels, unsatisfactory service and not some- thing that she would look forward to or that would meet the intent is to hold a regional referendum, not a prov- her fairly simple needs. Th at's the fi rst constituent, who incewide referendum. lives on Park Drive in my riding. [1610] Th e second concern is raised by Imtiaz Popat on behalf I'll ask that the minister confi rm that. If, in fact, that is of his father, Nurdan Popat. He lives on 114 Avenue in the case, has the minister or anyone else in government the Bridgeview area of Surrey. His father has Alzheimer's reviewed provincial legislation to see what changes, if any, and largely lives with him at home. Occasionally, once would have to be made to allow for a regional referendum a week, he goes out, I think more for socialization than that was conducted by anyone other than the municipal- anything else, to a session at an agency called PICS, ities that comprise the TransLink region? Progressive Intercultural Community Service. He takes the handyDART. Hon. T. Stone: Yes, to answer the member's question. Imtiaz tells me that in the recent past he has simply Th e referendum will be a regional referendum in which been denied service. Th ey've requested it, and the ser- the voters that live within the current boundaries of vice has not been provided. He's concerned. Th is is, again, Metro will have a right to vote. once a week and meets his real needs as a person with With respect to the second part of the member's ques- that condition. Otherwise, he's housebound. tion — do we anticipate any changes to provincial legis- Both of the constituents have asked me to express their lation to allow for a regional referendum? — again, that concern about what they regard as actual deterioration very well may be the case. We don't have the fi nalized in the quality of the handyDART service or potential de- details on that yet. As I said in a previous answer, my terioration of the handyDART service. staff are working diligently to understand exactly what I don't know whether the minister wishes to respond the mechanics would look like to hold this regional ref- now or would wish to respond in writing at a later date. erendum. When Mr. Lekstrom was the minister, I did raise simi- lar constituency issues. Th ere was actually a direct inter- G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister. I am going to vention by the ministry, and a solution was found. Th at's ask the minister's indulgence for a moment. One of my obviously what I'm seeking here, but I'll leave it to the colleagues has a question on a diff erent topic that I was minister whether he chooses to respond now or at some getting to and will get to, but I'm not quite done with future point. these. He has House duty in a couple of minutes, so if I [1625] may, the member for Surrey-Whalley. Hon. T. Stone: I want to thank the member for Surrey- Th e Chair: Before the member goes, I'd like to ask if Whalley for his questions. First off , as the member is well members are okay with having a short recess. aware, TransLink is an independent operating agency, so Okay, two minutes. We are recessed. to the extent that we can in the ministry, we can certainly Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 761

pass the information along to them about individual cus- ments, they clearly show that from 2015 forward the re- tomer experiences. serves are quite stable. So I'm not going to accept the I will say, however, that my understanding of this pilot assertion that TransLink is dipping into reserves at an program — the use of an increased number of taxis as ever-increasing clip moving forward. They have sug- opposed to the traditional handyDART vehicles — is that gested otherwise. it is indeed a pilot, and it does have an expiry at the end In terms of the other part of the question, with respect of this year. My understanding is that TransLink will be to any contingency plans that may be in place should the reviewing the success or lack thereof. Th ey'll determine referendum not be successful, again, I'm not going to that at that point and will make a decision as to whether speculate on a failure. We are working with the mayors to continue the program. to ensure that this referendum is a success. I want to make something very clear for the record. Th is is why I've had very open and frank discussions TransLink has made very clear to me, with respect to with a number of the mayors and why we had a very good this pilot program, that no one will ever be denied a fi rst meeting last week with the chair and the vice-chair handyDART vehicle if a handyDART vehicle is requested, of the Mayors Council. Th is is why we're focused on roll- notwithstanding this increased use of taxis. ing up our sleeves and working together on the matters of On the specifi c constituent concerns that the member improvements to governance, the funding options them- raises, I would encourage the member to…. If he would selves as well as the specifi c question that we will put to like to, he can certainly forward those details directly the voters of Metro. to me, and I would be happy to move them forward to I would encourage all of the mayors of Metro to work TransLink and ensure that there is appropriate follow- with us on this. The people of Metro are looking for up as quickly as possible for the member's constituents. leadership from the mayors. Th ey're looking for leader- ship from the province to come together and solve the G. Heyman: I'm getting short on time, so I'm going to long-term transportation and transit challenges that face lump two questions together. My question is: what con- the region. tingency plans does the ministry have if there is a refer- With respect to the fi nal part of the question, on the endum on funding, if it is a yes-no question and if it fails? gas tax and the new Building Canada fund, we are ac- TransLink, as you know, is covering their operating tually in early-stage discussions at the moment with the defi cits this year and next by dipping into their reserves, federal government as related to the gas tax, the criteria but they cannot allow those reserves to dip below around for the gas tax. Later this fall we will be in discussions 12 percent, which is likely to be where they'll be in 2014. with the feds with respect to the criteria related to the At that point, TransLink can no longer cover defi cits from new Building Canada fund. reserves and will need to either fi nd funding, which is subject to the referendum, or deal with existing service G. Heyman: I'm running a bit short of time, and some and maintenance. of my colleagues have questions, so I want to briefl y re- [1630] spond to the minister's comment about rejecting my Th e second question is: what is the ministry's engage- assertion that there won't be a funding problem for ment in the changes to the federal gas tax fund and the TransLink. Building Canada fund that will result in a new Building I'm a bit surprised at that comment because when the Canada fund in 2015? board received a recent budget update, the forecast defi - I am told that there is around $120 million a year avail- cit was actually a little over $10 million higher than what able for capital projects and infrastructure that TransLink they had originally budgeted for. Th ey are extremely con- cannot commit to matching. And if it cannot commit cerned about dipping into the reserves further and the to matching, that money could well be reallocated to impact that will have. Th ey believe, in fact, that aft er 2014 other projects that are put forward before TransLink has they will not be able to cover any further operating defi - a chance to do that. What is the ministry's contingency cits. So we disagree on that point. plan for that if money is, in fact, left on the table in such Again, I would like to reiterate that mayors and people a signifi cant amount? at TransLink are extremely concerned that without the [1635] ability to off er matching funds, to approximately $120 million a year over ten years, that money could be reallo- [J. Th ornthwaite in the chair.] cated and off the table for TransLink, which would simply make the funding issues that much greater. Hon. T. Stone: Th ank you for the question. [1640] First off , the member made a statement that TransLink I have a series of questions. I am going to read them. is dipping into its reserves at a rate that may mean oper- I do not expect an answer today, but I would appreciate ations won't be sustainable for the long term. In actual an answer in writing from the minister or from min- fact, when you look at TransLink's own fi nancial docu- istry staff . 762 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Th e fi rst one has to do with the Golden Ears Bridge. I Oh, I have one last question. Th e TransLink police understand that payments on the bridge are fi xed until board is also appointed by the province, as well as the the contract runs out in 2041, that TransLink will be TransLink board itself. Similarly, there are issues about forced to make up any shortfall annually out of its oper- local accountability. Will there be any concurrent dis- ating budget and that, in fact, toll revenue that was ex- cussions around the appointment of the police board pected has failed to materialize to date. Can the minister and how that takes place? Are any changes to the ap- or the ministry outline how ridership numbers look on pointment of the police board contemplated, along with that bridge going forward and if they think there will be a discussions about appointments to the TransLink board problem and a debt ultimately transferred to TransLink? itself? Th e second question is with respect to AirCare. Th e With that, Chair, thank you. I thank your predecessor, Ministry of Environment announced last year that and I thank the minister for answering my questions. I AirCare would be discontinued, even though the pro- look forward to the answers to the questions I have en- gram is run by TransLink. Can the minister outline steps tered in. being taken with respect to the phase-out of the program? [1645] With respect to the Evergreen line, is the minister satis- fi ed that the summer 2016 target will be met in terms of Hon. T. Stone: To the member opposite: thank you construction progress, or are there diffi culties, as there very much for, I think, what was a very good exchange have been with other projects around the province, in here today. finding skilled labour for the project? Are there any I certainly can commit to you that the questions you skilled labour shortages anticipated that might aff ect the just read into the record — we will absolutely provide pace of construction? you with written responses as quickly as possible. Should Finally, with respect to handyDART, I have looked at you have any further questions in moving forward on a response from TransLink to a freedom-of-information the TransLink fi le, by all means, my door is open. Let me request with respect to handyDART denials that says know, and we'll look forward to working with you on this. from the time period July 1, 2012, to December 1, 2012, I do want to touch on the comment that you made at there were 19,091 service denials. Th ose would be re- the outset of your last questions there about the reserves quests for service that handyDART could not or would and the fi nancial outlook for TransLink. Again, for the re- not meet. cord, I do not dispute that there are long-term challenges Th ere were, in addition, 4,558 refusals, which generally moving forward in terms of meeting the needs of what is occur when somebody has to get to an appointment and the fastest-growing region in the province. back at a fi xed time, so handyDART off ers an alternative We expect a million more people in the Lower time, and the person refuses the service because it sim- Mainland, I think, by 2030-2031. Th e $20 billion to $24 ply doesn't work for them. Can the ministry confi rm that billion worth of transit and transportation improvements those numbers are, in fact, accurate and how they com- that TransLink has identifi ed, which have been widely pare with the year 2011? discussed for many years up to this point, I think, are very I would ask the minister if the ministry has a system important for the region. Th e question, as I said earlier, for tracking complaints about handyDART service. If is going to be: how do these projects get paid for? And TransLink tracks complaints about handyDART service, in what order do these projects get done? are the complaints brought to the ministry's attention? I want to restate that the projection on TransLink's re- I also understand that there has been a pilot project serves from 2015 out shows the reserves remaining quite conducted with using taxi service in place of handyDART stable. We have demonstrated a track record, certainly service. In fact, taxi usage between July 1, 2012, and over the last couple years, of being responsive to the may- December 1, 2012, was 12,645. Has a cost-benefi t analysis ors. Last year, when they asked for two cents additional been done in advance? What particular effi ciencies were gas tax to fund the Evergreen project and some addition- being sought by substituting taxi service for handyDART al expansion items, we stepped forward and we met that service, and which, if any, were found? challenge head on. Finally, handyDART drivers receive specialized train- I quoted earlier the report that you mentioned sever- ing for dealing with the clients of handyDART. Th ey al times today. Ken Cameron, a former regional planner receive regular refresher training. Th ey get specialized hired by the Mayors Council to pull together research training such as the use of ventilators. Can the ministry comparing other city transportation plans to that of or the minister tell me whether this training is also pro- Metro Vancouver, made some very strong and very posi- vided to taxi drivers who are providing alternate service? tive statements about TransLink. One stood out for me. Finally, what controls, if any, does TransLink or the Th at was that today TransLink has funding sources which ministry have in place with respect to the TaxiSaver pro- are second to none in relation to a number of other cit- gram and the issuance of vouchers? Do we know the value ies around the world with comparable transit systems. of money represented by the vouchers that are issued? Just this morning on CKWX on line a former Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 763

TransLink board chair Doug McCallum, who I know over because of the load-bearing challenges. the members opposite know well, very clearly stated: "I We'd really love to hear from the minister if this gov- would rate our system right at the top with other systems ernment has any intention to help sort out these chal- around the world." lenges that currently exist around that corridor. Back to my comments earlier. We think that there's a [1655] good foundation in place with TransLink and the work that TransLink is doing and the work that the Mayors Hon. T. Stone: To the member for Coquitlam- Council is doing. So let's roll up our sleeves, and let's Maillardville, I'm happy to fi rst assure you that we will work together to improve governance, agree on fund- respond in writing to the fi rst question that you posed. ing options and seek the approval of the people of Metro We'll do that as quickly as possible. Vancouver as we move forward to make these very im- With respect to the other questions, fi rst, on the con- portant transit and transportation improvements in the cern raised by the member with respect to the signage Lower Mainland. along Highway 1 and reference to the Lougheed Highway and the Mary Hill Bypass, I understand that this is, indeed, S. Robinson: I have a number of questions, but the something that is well understood within the ministry. fi rst I'm just going to read into the record and ask if I I believe several meetings have been held with Mayor could get a written response back so that I can get back Stewart of Coquitlam. He has conveyed very strongly on to my community with the responses from this minister. behalf of the people of Coquitlam just how important During the election the Liberal candidate in this is. A number of signs actually have been switched Coquitlam-Maillardville spoke about park-and-ride out, and we're working on the balance of signs that the systems all along the Evergreen line. I just want to fi nd city has identifi ed as the key signs that would make all out from the minister if that really is the intention — to the diff erence in the world for the residents in the region. have a park-and-ride program throughout the Evergreen We actually just received an invite this morning from line. Th at would be really helpful, because it's not some- Coquitlam city council for Ministry of Transportation thing I'm that familiar with. staff to come and meet face to face. We've accepted that My questions for today, which come from my com- invitation. munity. Th ere are two of them. One of them is related to I can't tell you exactly when the meeting will be held road signs on the Highway 1 corridor. Back in February because I don't think they've worked that out. It will be the mayor of Coquitlam, Mayor Stewart, brought to the as soon as possible so that Coquitlam can share with the attention of the minister at the time the fact that the signs ministry its perspective on the status and let us know on the new highway did nothing in terms of providing how we're doing on the progress to improve the signage. accurate direction. Th ey were told that it would be looked If there are any further questions in relation to that issue, into. Here we are in July. Nothing's been done. please let me know, and I'd be happy to follow up on that. I just want to hear from the minister what the plan is With respect to the Bailey bridge, unfortunately it's for road signs. It actually means something to people. For not a provincially owned bridge. It's municipally owned, example, they keep referring to Highway 7 and Highway so there's nothing that the province can do to accelerate 7B. If you were to ask anyone who lives locally, those are any improvement there. However, I would say for the re- meaningless numbers to people. We call them the Mary cord, and I'm sure that you probably share my sentiments Hill Bypass and the Lougheed Highway. It's now front- here, that I strongly encourage the city of New West and page news this week. We'd love to hear from the minis- the city of Coquitlam and TransLink to put their heads ter on that one. together and fi x what is obviously a challenge in the infra- [1650] structure in that part of the region. My second question — just in terms of time, I'm go- ing to give you both of them — has to do with the Bailey M. Karagianis: I have a question about transporta- bridge. It's an intermunicipal roadway. Th e single-lane tion here on the south Island and am here representing bridge has most recently been determined not to be my colleagues on the south Island, the members for Juan able to carry the loads that it requires, given that it's de Fuca, Victoria–Beacon Hill and Victoria–Swan Lake. down in industrial lands. It links two communities, New I won't speak for Saanich North and Saanich South, be- Westminster and Coquitlam. It creates this huge bottle- cause they are both here. Th ey can speak very ably for neck in the neighbourhood, and it's a real challenge both themselves. for the businesses down there and also some concerns I couldn't help but notice in the minister's opening around access to Royal Columbian Hospital. speech in the House that there was a very direct refer- Recently there was a major accident that closed North ence in your comments to a transportation strategy for Road, which is the other way to access the hospital. It was the south Island here. My colleagues and I have long closed for nine hours, and that left us with just this one- been advocates for better transportation solutions here way Bailey bridge, which a fi re truck couldn't even go for the south Island. 764 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Th at would include some kind of transportation au- tial for HOV lanes, the potential for expanded transit. thority, although hopefully not necessarily mimicking Again, we're going to look at the entire Island. It'll TransLink or the problems that have occurred there; cer- include the ports in Port Alberni and Victoria. It'll in- tainly looking at better use of the E&N corridor; looking clude the airports. It'll include the road network across at the concerns we have for the traffi c congestion on the Vancouver Island. Trans-Canada Highway coming from the West Shore — In terms of timing and process, moving forward…. to include things like HOV lanes, to look at the conges- I'm thinking the member might be interested in that as tion around the McKenzie overpass, to look at expansion well. I'll just go a minute longer here. We are in the early of transit itself, to perhaps look at a commuter rail system stages of mapping out the scope, but it is my intention to both from the West Shore and possibly the longer-term do everything we can to have the scope and the process planning for rapid rail or rapid transit in some form in nailed down so that we can launch this strategy this fall. the inner city. [1705] All of those things we know are very crucial — lots We won't be looking at a one- or two-year process. I do of pressure here on the south Island around them. I was not want this to be an eff ort at just having a whole wide very fascinated to hear the minister make very direct ref- range of conversations over a long period of time and erence to a transportation strategy for the south Island. If creating a nice report with a shiny cover and putting it it's possible for to you expand on that, that would be ter- on a bookshelf somewhere. rifi c, understanding the things that we have been advo- I intend on this being a more iterative process, mean- cating for here on the south Island for quite a long time. ing a shorter consultation period and very clearly defi ned [1700] short-term, mid-term and long-term goals. I think there are some short-term measures that could be very quick Hon. T. Stone: I would like to thank member for wins on some aspects of congestion on the south Island — Esquimalt–Royal Roads for her question. Speaking of which I don't think we need to talk about for more years; her colleagues, I had a very good discussion with her col- I think we need to come to some consensus and move league from Juan de Fuca just the other day. He was very forward — just as one example. direct with me in terms of the priorities, as he sees them, I hope to have more details on this, in terms of the certainly for the southern part of the Island. scope and the process moving forward, and to make At the end of the day, we made a very clear commit- some announcement on that this fall. ment in the platform for the recent election to develop a Vancouver Island transportation strategy. I saw that D. Eby: In my constituency of Vancouver–Point Grey very clearly detailed for me in the mandate letter that we have a very unusual area known as electoral area A, was provided to me shortly aft er being sworn in as the which is where UBC is located. Th ere are a number of Transportation Minister. diff erent neighbourhoods there — the university neigh- At a very high level…. While I absolutely appreciate bourhoods, the endowment lands and the UBC student that the member will be fi rst and foremost interested groups themselves. in improvements that could be made for the southern The point of all this is that it's provincial jurisdic- Island, it will indeed be a strategy that will address the tion and responsibility for the infrastructure and trans- transportation priorities for all of Vancouver Island. portation infrastructure out at UBC, by which I mean We're not limiting the scope to just land or just air. It will roads. Recently the Ministry of Transportation installed be a broad approach. It'll include road, rail, air and water- a roundabout at 16th Avenue and Wesbrook Mall that based transportation. We're not just going to focus on the everyone agrees is unsafe for children. The Ministry movement of people. We'll be focusing on the movement of Transportation wouldn't have done this if they'd of goods as well. just come to the community and asked the University I'm well aware that on the southern Island there are Neighbourhoods Association: "What do you think about some tremendous challenges, particularly in the Victoria this plan?" approaches, and lots of discussion over the years around Now the Ministry of Transportation is involved in an everything from bringing the E&N back…. expensive retrofi tting scheme, putting in lights and con- We're certainly committed to that as a government. tact pads and these kinds of things to try to fi x it. Th e We've put $7½ million on the table. Th e feds have put neighbours are still concerned that it's not going to be money on the table. The Vancouver Island corridor fi xed, and they're calling for little islands between the two group has indicated a desire to work with both levels of lanes so that the cars can see the kids as they go through government. I'm keen to determine exactly where the the roundabout. bottleneck is on that project, to see if we can't make some What I'm asking is pretty straightforward. Th e minis- progress on it. ter has been given a clear mandate to save money, to be I understand that there's been discussion around wise with taxpayer funds. It seems to the people in my improvements at the McKenzie intersection, the poten- constituency that the smartest use of taxpayer funds is to Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 765

consult before installing new infrastructure or replacing ping, and some other work was done. Th e Transportation existing infrastructure and, in particular, to consult with Ministry personnel said that this would be suffi cient to the only body there representing the university neigh- set things right. bourhoods, which is the University Neighbourhoods Th e spring freshet has now happened again. Th ere was Association, or whatever body replaces it. no major debris fl ow this year. It was just a normal freshet. My question to the minister is quite simple. Will the But in fact, what has happened is that once again, even in ministry consult with the University Neighbourhoods a year where there was not a major event, we now have Association, the University Endowment Lands group, the debris that has again fl owed down the creek. Th e banks Alma Mater Society and UBC — all of them — before in- are again being eaten away. Th e people of Swansea Point stalling new transportation infrastructure or replacing that are anywhere close to Hummingbird Creek are very existing infrastructure? Th is means physically going to concerned that their homes are not safe. Th ey're actual- the community, showing them the plans, getting feed- ly afraid that they are not safe, and the levels have again back and then incorporating that feedback. risen. [1710] Although I believe that Transportation Ministry per- sonnel are going to take a look at it, it looks like the deb- Hon. T. Stone: To the member for Vancouver–Point ris is back up, essentially at the place it was last year when Grey: thank you for your question. Th e short answer is: there was a major event. I'm seeking some assistance yes, we are committed to ensuring that there's every ef- from the Ministry of Transportation on this. fort made to consult with all of the stakeholders in elec- I know, just before the minister responds, that there toral area A. was an opportunity several years ago for the people of I'm sure the member is aware that UBC held a meet- Swansea Point to get a culvert, which is what they're look- ing recently, on March 18, to discuss the roundabout ing for — or a bridge and a catch basin. and a number of other related pieces. My understand- [1715] ing is that that meeting was very well attended and very I know that I have been told by previous Transportation well received. Ministers that they were off ered that and that they turned Based on feedback from the various stakeholder it down. But they turned it down because the province, as groups — again, as the member, I'm sure, is well aware a precondition of that, told them that they were going to — there has been a focus on improving safety on 16th have to pay for the maintenance, and they didn't want to Avenue, including reducing the speed limit from 60 kilo- set that precedent. In fact, that was a precedent that the metres to 50 kilometres. new member for Shuswap has said he agreed was not a My point here is that I think the relationship at this good precedent to set. point is in a good place. To keep it there, we need to en- I guess my question is, essentially: is the minister, is sure that appropriate consultations continue to be at the this government going to fi nally do what needs to be centrepiece of any decisions that are made that aff ect done, which is to go in and fi x the problem? Th ere has the stakeholders in electoral area A within the mem- been extensive logging above this creek. Some fi xes have ber's riding. happened, and the people appreciate it, but they are es- sentially very close back to where they were last year aft er K. Corrigan: I want to ask a question, and I'll leave the devastation. it with you. You may have some partial answer. For the Th ey want to know where the material is coming from most part, I'm expecting that probably I can get written and want to know what can be done to fi nally stabilize it. answers later. Th ey want to get information with regard to the forest- I want to ask some questions about the people that live ry work that has happened above where they live. Th ey at Swansea Point and the terrible problems they've had are essentially looking for a permanent solution to this with Hummingbird Creek. In June of 2012 the commun- problem. ity of Swansea Point was devastated by a major debris What I'm going to leave with the minister is if the min- fl ow of water and debris from Hummingbird Creek that ister wants to make any comment now, that's fi ne, but I came down through their community. Th ere were mil- would like a response about what the long-term solution lions of dollars of damage created by this provincial creek. is. Th is is a provincial creek. Th e people of Swansea Point Th e banks were eaten away. Hundreds of houses were do not want to set a provincewide precedent of undertak- affected. For months the province refused to do any- ing the maintenance of this creek. thing about it. Coincidentally, when I made a visit there Th is is a provincial responsibility, and they want some to meet with the people and local reporters on February assurance that this government is going to do the right 6, 2013, on that very day government sent a letter in the thing and is going to fi x the problem so that the hun- morning, saying that they were going to do something dreds of residents that live there do not go to bed worry- about it, which was good. ing about whether or not they're going to be swept away Some work was done in March and, I believe, in May by a raging current sometime during the night. digging out the debris that was left there and some riprap- [1720] 766 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Hon. T. Stone: I thank the member for Burnaby–Deer an initiative of the Ministry of Transportation. Lake for the question. I know this is an issue that she [1725] has pursued on behalf of the residents of Swansea Point and those along Hummingbird Creek for a number of Hon. T. Stone: I thank the member for Saanich South years now. for her questions. I should start by acknowledging the member for On the fi rst question that she posed, that is an issue Shuswap, who has raised this matter with me several between Tourism Vancouver and the Ministry of Finance. times as well. Obviously, as he lives just down the road I would encourage the member to direct her inquiry to from this location, he is well aware of the terrible fl ood the Ministry of Finance offi ce. that took place last year. With respect to the local issue that she raised, just an As a government, we take the concerns of the local resi- update on the improvements being made at the Pat Bay dents who live on this alluvial fan seriously. In terms of Highway and the Sayward intersection. Th e $3 million this recent spring we did monitor the fl ow, as the mem- was announced for that project. I'm pleased to confi rm ber mentioned quite clearly in her question, twice a day for the member that there are adequate funds to complete beginning in April. We're quite pleased that the work that the project, so there are no concerns there at all. was done last year withstood the conditions for this year. With respect to the coloured fl ags that are hanging on Th at notwithstanding, the ministry did commission some of the lines in the area, those are markers that are Golder Associates to undertake a review of the capacity used from a safety perspective to mark the utilities for the of the culvert in place right now. Th e test is really: can contractors. Th ey will be removed when the work is done. this culvert withstand a one-in-200-year event, yes or no? My understanding is that Golder Associates will be pro- S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister and his staff for be- viding that report to us very, very soon, likely in August, ing here to provide the information that we are all seek- and we will see what it says. ing to get. At the end of the day, we are committed to ensuring I've worked closely with some of your staff , and I ap- that the provincial infrastructure, which would largely preciate the improvements that happened on Highway be the highway through there, is well looked aft er for the 4 between Port Alberni and the west coast — Tofi no, residents in the area. Ucluelet and the Nuu-chah-nulth territories. Th ere was If the member has any further questions on this or a bad accident there with paramedics, and that actually requires any further level of detail, I would be happy to spurred on some signifi cant changes. I appreciate that provide that to her either in person or in written form. and the work and the time your staff put into that. [1730] K. Corrigan: I don't require any further answer be- Highway 4 going to Port Alberni from the east side of cause I have colleagues…. I would be remiss if I did not the Island is what I'll ask about. One of your predecessors, acknowledge the great work that Tina and Dan Keely and , said I was like the salmon coming back — Steele Jordan and the other residents have done on behalf asking the questions. But it is of concern for the city of of that community. Port Alberni, certainly. Th eir hopes and aspirations for Th ank you very much for your response. I may put economic diversifi cation are — partly, at least — around some more written questions to you. Th ank you, Minister. highway improvements. Th ere's just the one access now. It is a bottleneck. It gets shut down. L. Popham: I have two questions, two separate topics. Always, previously, whichever minister it has been in My fi rst question is to the minister. Does the minis- the place…. Th e studies have shown, I've been told, that ter show $90 million as an accounts receivable for the the traffi c numbers do not warrant an alternative route. I Tourism Vancouver portion of the Vancouver Convention don't know about any of the other Highway 4 connector Centre sitting with the Ministry of Transportation? If it's accesses, or whatever, but the studies have shown that it's not $90 million, what is the current total at this point? not feasible — at this time, at least. My second question is in regards to my constituency. I know the mayor and council have still been pushing I do represent Saanich South, which is home to one of very hard, so I'm back again, like the salmon, pushing the most dangerous intersections on Vancouver Island, hard. Have there been any changes of thought because Pat Bay Highway and Sayward Road. I have been work- of the economic plans that the city of Port Alberni has? ing very hard since I was elected in 2009 to try and bring Maybe that's a good reason to rethink this — about an some focus onto that intersection. alternative access or a highway connector for Highway 4. It is great that there are improvements underway now. I want to confi rm with the minister that there are adequate Hon. T. Stone: You can be the salmon for as long as funds to continue and to complete the safety improve- you want. My goal here, to the member, is to answer your ments at that intersection, and to ask if the coloured fl ags questions and, hopefully, help you with projects that are hanging around the intersection on the power lines are important to the people in your constituency. So I ap- Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 767

plaud you for continuing to come back and make those will eventually not have remote rural communities, and priorities known. that will impact the entire province in being able to re- With respect to the specifi c road in question, Highway coup the economic benefi ts. So my question would be…. 4 from east of Port Alberni, obviously we are all well Th ey need some help to take this advanced-concept aware that there have been a number of studies done. plan to the fi nal stages and to have the project…. It is One, quite recent, has looked at the economic viability of near shovel-ready. this and whether there was a strong business case or not. In the budget estimate process for this coming fi scal Clearly, we know where the city of Port Alberni stands, year are there capital funds in place for projects such as and a lot of the business interests in Port Alberni. the Hazelton recreation centre? Are there funds available My suggestion at this point…. Let me back up. A to assist communities, which have already spent their new route is not in the ministry's plans at the present own money, to complete the plans and allow them to time. Th at being said, it's exactly these kinds of projects leverage private dollars from industry, which is available that I encourage people to bring forward as part of the too, if they can get some commitment from the province? Vancouver Island transportation strategy. We will be [1740] launching that process this fall. [1735] Hon. T. Stone: To the member for Stikine: thank you for the question. D. Donaldson: Th ank you to the critic for allowing me With respect to whether or not there may be some to take a bit of her time to ask an infrastructure-related infrastructure funds available for the Hazelton arena, problem. And congratulations to the minister for his new there are no funds at the present time. In fact, we don't appointment. have any specifi c infrastructure programs for these types I wanted to bring the minister up to speed on a specifi c of projects. Typically, they're funded municipally, which infrastructure project, and in return, I hope that he'll be the member clearly indicated in his question. able to give me some answers on government direction But the federal government has recently announced a on this project. Th at is the Hazelton recreation centre. new Building Canada fund, and we will be in discussions Th is is a project that is slated to replace an aging ice arena with the federal government very soon. I understand that in Hazelton, an ice arena that services numerous First as early as this fall we'll be fi nalizing criteria with the fed- Nation communities, two municipalities and a regional eral government as to how those infrastructure funds district. Th e issue is that it was built by volunteers dec- will be allocated. Th ere may be some opportunity here ades ago and is in a state of perhaps not being insurable to expand the scope of those infrastructure funds to pot- for use. So this could be as soon as next year. entially include community projects such as the one that Th ere has been a lot of work done on the project. Th e the member has raised. community has done a lot of work on it. Th ere has been I certainly understand and support these kinds of in- money spent. There have been community meetings. vestments in sports and culture and so forth at the local Th ere's an advanced-concept plan in place. Th e structure level. We will be encouraging our federal counterparts to being proposed is a wood structure, which fi ts in with the work with us on expanding the scope of the new Building concept of "Let's build out of wood" in this province. It's Canada fund. a unique project, in that it is a partnership between First I'll make one fi nal off er to the member. If the mem- Nations in the area — Gitxsan, mainly — and two muni- ber would like to make the details of this specifi c project cipalities, New Hazelton and Hazelton, plus the regional known to my staff and, specifi cally, the ADM for infra- district of Kitimat-Stikine. Th ings have come together structure, Mr. Richter…. I would be more than happy to quite well. It has taken a lot of work to get to this point, encourage you to meet with Mr. Richter. He would be but they need some help. very much willing to take the project and bookmark it I think that the help that's needed is not unreasonable. for reference when we understand where that scope is in We know the northwest has been tagged by the Premier the new Building Canada fund. and this government for contributing to the economic well-being of the entire province. I think it's not unfair, in S. Chandra Herbert: My question to the Minister of return, to see some investment in these kinds of projects Transportation. I had forwarded a letter to the ministry that lead to the health of remote rural communities and, a couple of weeks ago. I think some error happened. It therefore, the ability to recoup more economic benefi ts disappeared in the offi ce of the ministry, so I'll just ask for the entire province. the question here. Th is is along the lines of Greg Halseth's point of view, [1745] from the University of Northern B.C. He said that if you Specifi cally, it's regarding the Stanley Park Causeway. don't reinvest, then you will actually end up breaking As the minister will know, there was a horrible acci- the bank. dent which led to the loss of life of a North Vancouver If you don't reinvest in remote rural communities, we woman when riding her bike along the pathway, ending 768 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

up in traffi c. I have ridden that route myself many times. It could be PROCEEDINGS IN THE great route for tourism. It could be a much better com- BIRCH ROOM muting path between North and West Vancouver and downtown Vancouver. However, in its present state, it is Committee of Supply dangerous. One can pick up a lot of speed. It's a narrow route, and there are challenges with the signage as well ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION as with the pathway itself. (continued) Some have suggested a barrier so that people can't fall into traffi c. Th ere have been other suggestions made. The House in Committee of Supply (Section C); J. I'm curious if the minister could share with us what the Sturdy in the chair. Ministry of Transportation is going to do to improve cycle commuting and pedestrian commuting along that Th e committee met at 2:32 p.m. route so that we can green the environment and keep people safe. On Vote 18: ministry operations, $5,329,349,000 (con- tinued). Hon. T. Stone: Thank you to the member for Vancouver–West End for the question. Th e tragedy that Hon. P. Fassbender: Perhaps if I could, hon. Chair, I took place on the Stanley Park Causeway obviously gave just want to introduce, for those present, the individuals us all pause. Certainly, our thoughts are with the family from the ministry who are joining me today. We have our of the person who lost her life. deputy minister, James Gorman, and we also have Rick Th e Ministry of Transportation actually had a very Davis, our deputy superintendent, and Doug Stewart, as- good meeting recently with the sistant deputy, who is behind me. and the city of Vancouver. I want to assure the member that the Ministry of Transportation is absolutely com- R. Fleming: I want to ask the minister a few questions. mitted to developing a plan for improvements. Th ose Th en I know that a number of other MLAs will have lo- improvements could include barriers, sidewalk widening, cal constituency concerns that they wish to ask about separate pathways for pedestrians and cyclists. When it this aft ernoon. comes to safety — which is the most important, number If I could just begin, maybe, by asking some ques- one priority, as I've said over and over inside and outside tions about data management projects in the Ministry of the House — let's not rule anything out. Education. Th ere have been some well-canvassed prob- Certainly, my instructions to my staff have been to lems with the system that government procured in as far expedite these discussions and make sure, in concert back as 2002-2003 and has purchased all sorts of patch with the city of Vancouver and Vancouver park board, systems to maintain over the years. that we're in a position to actually implement some Th e last time I checked, we were well in advance of improvements as soon as possible. Th e review our min- $100 million worth of public money on a data system that istry undertook several weeks ago is very close to being was supposed to be unique to British Columbia. It was done. Again, in concert with the city and with the park not an off -the-shelf product, and it ended up costing a board, we will make the results of that known very soon. considerable amount of money. Its performance was the I would like to say, on a fi nal note, that it would cer- subject of budget estimates questions in the past. tainly be my intention to be in a position where we are I don't want to go into performance defi ciencies this making that known by the end of the summer, and we aft ernoon. I want to look, I think, ahead and just begin can take some action to actually improve that corridor by asking the minister about how much funding in this as soon as possible thereaft er. budget there is to run the BCeSIS data management pro- gram this year and how much districts are paying into Vote 45: minister operations, $812,278,000 — ap- the system. proved. [1435]

Hon. T. Stone: I move that the committee rise, re- Hon. P. Fassbender: This year we'll be spending port resolution and completion of the estimates of the $10.563 million, of which half, roughly $5.563 million, Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure and ask is recovered from districts, which means the remaining leave to sit again. half is borne by the ministry.

Motion approved. R. Fleming: I wonder if the minister could quantify…. Now that government has had so many years of experi- Th e committee rose at 5:50 p.m. ence with the system and has audited year-ends to create Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 769

a total, I wonder if he's in a position to be able to disclose In 2012 — as the member is, I'm sure, aware — the the total cost and the total amount of investment into the ministry began a request for proposals. As well, what BCeSIS system since it was introduced. we did was had signifi cant consultation with all the user groups, because it was important that when we went out Hon. P. Fassbender: Before I give the fi gures that have to the request for proposals, we really had a clear under- been asked for, I think there's context that's important in standing from the users what they would like to see with- this discussion as well. I clearly remember, as I'm sure the in the context of a new platform and within the context member does, ten years ago things like Netscape; Lotus of the recommendations that Gartner made. 1-2-3; WordPerfect — all of the technologies that we all Th at has been done. Requests for proposals for a new have seen and the evolution of technology to where we information system to replace BCeSIS were issued to 16 are today. Th e reality is that technology keeps changing. pre-qualifi ed organizations in December of 2012. Six re- Our challenge, of course, is that we have well over sponses were received by February of 2013. Th e evalua- 650,000 students per year, tens of thousands of users that tion process was just completed in June of this year, and use the system that tracks all kinds of information and the transition to the new student information service will ensures that we have the kind of information that we do. begin in 2014. We anticipate full provincewide imple- I know that the member is well aware that we are in mentation by 2015, and the existing system will be de- the process of replacing that system, because we are at commissioned early in 2016. the place where it has lived its usefulness. In our discus- [1445] sions with the provider, they no longer are going to be I'm sure the member understands that what we want to continuing to support that in the future. Th erefore, we're do is make sure that the critical information the system in the process. is going to provide to the users — that there is no loss [1440] or any hiccups in that transition process. Th at's why the Th at being said, the total capital cost from 2003-2013 current system won't be decommissioned until 2016 — was $16,899,598, and then the remainder were operating to ensure that the new system is meeting all of the needs costs. Th at came to a total of $97,418,074. So signifi cant as it gets ramped up and through the provincewide im- investment, but signifi cant usage over that period of time. plementation. We're now at the place where we need to bring in a new system that is going to serve us into the future to meet R. Fleming: I'm pleased to hear from the minister all of the needs that I've referred to. that in moving forward, the ministry feels that it has ad- equately consulted all of the users of the data system and R. Fleming: I appreciate what the member…. We're extensively solicited their opinions about what a better talking about a subject that has been the source of con- system will look like. siderable examination over its entire lifetime, but par- We know from another IT disaster in a diff erent min- ticularly in the last few years. Th e Ministry of Education istry, the integrated case management system, that that conducted something called the Gartner report, which was not done. Front-line social workers and managers reviewed the IT and information systems that the min- were not adequately consulted. Consequently, we're deal- istry uses. It concluded that BCeSIS is not meeting the ing with an overly expensive, underperforming system business, technical or operational needs of B.C. and is that completely failed to understand what narrative so- not a viable future alternative. cial work case data looked like. Th at was three years ago, almost — September 2011 — We don't want to repeat that again in the Ministry of that that report was delivered to the ministry. We've had Education, so in terms of getting this right…. Th e minis- shift ing timelines about when the replacement of that ter said that the evaluation process is going on right now. outdated system and low-functioning system would be One of the recommendations from Gartner was that we achieved. His predecessor as the Minister of Education have an off -the-shelf program that is used in other juris- last told the estimates process that it would be replaced dictions so that we do not repeat the mistakes that we did by 2014, without a precise date. Can the minister be more ten years ago in B.C. of trying to create our own educa- specifi c at this point in time? tion data system. Is that the case, without giving away any commercial Hon. P. Fassbender: To put again, I think, the entire secrets — that likely the successful bidders are going process into perspective, in 2011 the review was done to be ones that off er tried-and-tested products that are by Gartner, who are very reputable and have done work used by education departments in other jurisdictions for around the world in terms of systems analysis and mak- British Columbia? ing recommendations. I've had the opportunity to sit with that group on another initiative that I was involved Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member did say himself that with, and I have a lot of faith in the work that they did I'm not going to reveal any confi dential elements of that and the recommendations they made. yet because we're still in the process of fi nalizing a lot of 770 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

those details. But what I can say is that the entire process, tem has had frustrations with the information system up right from the time we started through to where we are to now. Th at's one of the reasons that we said we need to today and where we will get once we start implementa- take a very deep and a very broad look at it. tion and transition…. In doing that, as I said in the description of the process, Th e stakeholder engagement piece went through…. we involved administrators, principals, teachers — every- We had over, I think, 1,400 stakeholders that were in- one who interfaces with a student information system. volved in the discussion. We then developed, along with We do know that there is a school district that is looking the Gartner report, the business case. at another option. Th ere are fi ve. I think they represent a I think what's important here is that in any situation total in excess of 31,000 students, and I think it's refl ect- what we need to do, based on the consultations, is to ive of their frustration with the system up to now. ensure we have a made-in-B.C. solution for our system What I am proud to say, in the briefi ngs that I've had, is but not that it necessarily be a system that is solely for that the ministry has recognized that. Th e last thing…. In British Columbia — that it looks at best practices and these times of economic challenges that we face through- platforms that can be integrated that meet the needs that out the ministry, throughout every school district in the we've identifi ed. province, it would make no sense whatsoever to have 60 We went through that. Th at formed the basis of the diff erent systems or scattered systems that don't talk to request for proposals, so that was built into it. As the each other. evaluation committee is going through their work…. Th e Gartner report — and I'm assuming the member Of course, I don't get involved in that. Th at is up to the has read it — clearly speaks that one system that ensures evaluation committee, and it's a very confi dential process, communication between all districts and so on is the of course, because of the nature of it. We are convinced ideal solution. Th at's what we're working towards. Th at's that where we are going is going to ensure the delivery why we're working so hard with all of the school districts. of a very robust and functional system that meets the I'm quite optimistic that those districts that may have needs of all of the stakeholders that were identifi ed by looked at another alternative as a result of some frus- the stakeholders. tration will see the value of this system and why it will serve their needs and, indeed, because of all of the school R. Fleming: Th e minister outlined the timeline for districts in the province using it, that it will save them moving towards a new system. A number of school money and provide good-quality information and com- districts who had become frustrated and fatigued with munication amongst each other. the cost overruns and the poor performance of BCeSIS began to develop their own soft ware solutions. I guess R. Fleming: I would ask the minister if we can switch they'd lost confi dence that the ministry would adequately to international education goals. I just have a few ques- transition to something diff erently. tions in this section. Th ere's a recent round-table report [1450] that was done for his ministry, and of course, the jobs Th ey have some kind of a shareware system called plan of government placed quite a lot of importance openStudent that they're proposing to use. Th e last I upon international education as a source of revenue and had heard is that as many as fi ve districts plan to use job growth and taxation. this system. [1455] I wanted to ask the minister: how many districts are It set very ambitious targets, I think, to increase inter- planning to use openStudent, going on their own? Also, national students here in British Columbia by 50 percent given the timeline you've evaluated — you discussed by 2015. Th at's not very far from now. It was acknow- provincewide implementation of whoever the new vend- ledged at the round table that the Ministry of Education or is for the government system — how are those groups did that that's a completely unrealistic fi gure now and going to be integrated who are currently in the process that British Columbia would be lucky to achieve some- of implementing their own IT solutions? thing like 16 percent growth. Th at part of the jobs plan, presumably, will be amend- [G. Hogg in the chair.] ed by one of his colleagues somewhere else in a diff erent ministry. What I wanted to ask about was the round-table Th e Chair: Minister. report that's in his possession. Th ere are a number of fi ndings and recommendations Hon. P. Fassbender: Chair, you've changed. there that probably require careful consideration by the minister before moving ahead. I think one of the contro- Th e Chair: Th ank you. For the better. versial items that came out of the round-table report was to suggest that the Ministry of Education look at putting Hon. P. Fassbender: To the question: I have no hesi- a per-student levy on top of all the international student tation in saying to the member that everyone in the sys- fees that boards of education currently charge. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 771

Unsurprisingly, that's not popular amongst boards of portunities. Th ese are not down the road. Th ey actually education. Th ey feel it will make the cost of tuition go are in front of us. up even more and make international education prod- [1500] ucts that they are marketing around the world less com- One of the things we have focused on is how we petitive. broaden the markets that we can attract students from Can the minister, basically, answer the question about and, more importantly, also provide the kind of growth whether the ministry is moving ahead with that recom- that we need. We clearly recognize that we do not have mendation? Is it likely that there will be a per-student levy enough capacity in the province of British Columbia to assessed provincewide on all of the districts that have meet the job needs. international education programs? Part of that is education and immigration, which fi ts into that. We'll also be discussing this with our federal Hon. P. Fassbender: No. counterparts to ensure that we develop a marketing strat- egy at every level so that we can meet the needs and, in- R. Fleming: Th ere was another fi nding that came out deed, broaden that base. of the round table that I think was interesting. It found One of the keys, and the member spoke about it, that that one of the barriers, perhaps, to the growth that's in I absolutely believe and that I know my colleague in the the jobs plan target — and was suggested by the min- ministry of community aff airs…. We have talked about istry that 50 percent international student enrolment how do we market communities outside of the metro- increase could be achieved — was that currently it was politan areas, to the north, and talk about opportunities felt that there was an overreliance on too few markets for for people to have tremendous careers, great educational students, that Korea and China in particular had been and skill training opportunities and to build commun- heavily tapped. ities in those regions where a lot of the jobs that we see Eff orts to market Dogwood certifi cates and regions in the future are going to be. of B.C. that would provide international education had perhaps undermarketed to other potential sources of R. Fleming: I think I heard as categorical a rejection students here. as you will ever hear in an estimates process. Th e min- I wanted to ask the minister, given the fact that there's ister suggests that there will be no provincewide stu- a bit of a laissez faire system…. Boards of education can dent levy tacked onto boards of education that run the go forth and start their own limited companies and pur- international education programs. Okay. I heard it again sue international education opportunities. Some do it through a nod. well. Some have diffi culty doing that. Probably northern I want to ask about another area that the round table B.C. has a lot more diffi cult time marketing itself than touched upon that I think some boards have concerns some southern cities. with, and that is around tuition fee rates across the prov- Where is the role for the ministry, coming out of this ince — whether they would be regulated and standard- round-table report, to have a more coordinated market- ized. Currently there is quite a variance between what ing eff ort that is more diversifi ed internationally? Is that West Vancouver and Richmond and Kamloops charge something he's considering? And what new markets, if international students. any, is he looking to assist boards of education to access? The minister has just talked about the B.C. brand around high school education here. We have quite a dif- Hon. P. Fassbender: To the member: thank you for the ferentiation when international students investigate and question. It gives me a chance to speak about a number look at what B.C. off ers. On that discussion around fi x- of things that have been happening since I have been for- ing tuition fee rates across the province, does the min- tunate to be asked to serve as the Minister of Education. ister have an equally unequivocal answer about whether I can tell the member that that is exactly why the round he's pursuing that? table took place. More importantly, round tables defi ne some of the potential opportunities that we have. I can as- Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e province of British Columbia sure the member that this government is absolutely com- and the Ministry of Education have avoided and will mitted with our jobs strategy, with our desire to grow the continue not to regulate tuitions around the province. economy and provide the secure future for the people of Th e reason for that is the cost of delivering education in British Columbia for not only the current generation but the Stikine is much diff erent than it is in my commun- for future generations as well. ity of Surrey. One of the things that we have been doing is there have We recognize that local jurisdictions and our co- been a number of interministry meetings with Jobs and governance relationship with them are the ones that Skills, Advanced Education, the Ministry of Education, have to make the decisions as to what it does cost them Aboriginal Relations — all of the various ministries who to provide that education and to set their fees accordingly. have a direct involvement in preparing for the future op- However, what we do and will continue to do as part 772 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

of our strategy moving forward is talk about barriers to to take on larger classes. some of the issues that we have and work with them and I guess the question I'd really like to ask the minister, encourage them to fi nd as many ways as they can to en- if his staff can provide it, is: how many teachers in the sure they provide the level and the quality in that com- province did actually accept extra pay last year for hav- munity while they are responsible for setting the fees. As ing classes that were outside of the Bill 22 thresholds? the member knows, the cost of housing in some com- munities outside of, say, Surrey, as an example, is much Hon. P. Fassbender: We know that there were 1,300 diff erent in smaller communities. All of those factors classes throughout the province, out of a total of 68,000 have to be taken into account. classes, that exceeded 30. Th at means there were 1,300 It is not our position that we are going to dictate tuition teachers who were eligible for a small stipend for the ex- fees to those communities and those local school districts. tra work that they had as a result of that. At this stage we won't know the actual number that R. Fleming: I'll switch topics. Th ere's an element in the took advantage of that — because they, indeed, have to service plan that talks about performance management take advantage of it — until the fi nancial statements are and incentives in the ministry. Not too many years ago fi nalized in September. Should the member want to know somebody ran for the leadership of the minister's party that number at that point, I'm sure that contact with min- campaigning on merit pay for teachers. It's a controver- istry staff …. Th ey will be able to provide it once the fi - sial idea. It didn't go very far, and ultimately, that indi- nancial statements are fi nalized. vidual didn't become the leader. [1505] R. Fleming: If I could just ask a question about trades I want to ask the minister if he can explain a section training. Th ere's a target, again, to increase enrolment in under the service plan, "Objective 2.2," which references trades and technical training through the ACE IT pro- improved support for teachers and "improving oversight gram and other apprenticeships that begin in high school, for the teaching profession, including performance man- to increase the number of students involved by 50 percent agement and" — again, that word — "incentives." — 6,000 students per year. I just want to ask the minister to zero in and com- [1510] ment on the incentives and ask if it means that there's I know that apprenticeships cost money. Th ere's a low extra funding in the budget for incentives, what exactly student-to-teacher ratio, and there are obviously capital is meant by incentives and whether this would qualify as costs and program costs. It's a valuable program. what's commonly referred to as merit pay. I'm just wondering if the minister could talk about where in the budget funds that essentially subsidize the Hon. P. Fassbender: One of the things that's happened apprenticeships are contained. If the ministry is to com- over the years is that the ministry has worked very care- plete its goal, I'm not seeing in this budget document fully and closely with teachers. We've encouraged the where that money is going to come from, given the very B.C. Teachers Federation to be involved in the process of small amounts that are projected provincewide to in- defi ning how we move ahead in terms of improving the crease the overall Education Ministry's budget. quality of education in the classrooms, the environment for teachers, and all of those things. Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e question is timely both in What we've done in that, and what is meant in the ser- terms of the challenges we face but also some of the vice plan, is that we want to defi ne where the areas are discussions which I alluded to already with the various where improvement can be brought. How do we provide ministries, including Advanced Education, and looking that to teachers in the classroom? How do we provide at other parts of the government and our funding for it. them with the support that they need in order to help Let me perhaps give you some statistics, just to put it them to move ahead and to grow within their profession? into context. We have roughly 935 students across the Th e word "incentives" is not merit pay. It has to do with province that are registered in secondary school appren- other forms of support that we can give them to help ticeship programs. Now, when you think about the future them to be able to feel satisfi ed that they have all the tools job potential and the growth that we hope to have in our they need to provide the quality teaching and environ- economy and where it's going to come from, that's not a ment for their students. good enough number by any stretch. We also know that there are about 2,065 students that R. Fleming: Bill 22, which of course replaced the bills are registered in the accelerated credit enrolment in in- that were struck down by the court, had a provision in it dustry training, the ACE IT program. We allocate about to pay teachers additional money for having more than $450,000 — and we have in this budget — for scholar- 30 students in their classroom. I'm just wondering if this ships for students who want to move forward into that provision in Bill 22 is deemed an incentive, under the ser- area. More importantly, the Industry Training Authority vice plan area that we've just been discussing, for teachers allocated $5.1 million towards that. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 773

I sat in on a meeting this morning, along with the passed that strongly urged the government of B.C. to re- Minister of Skills Training and also Advanced Education, instate the library fund as a separate line item within gov- with some industry representatives. What we talked ernment so that it's transparent and they can have some about is: how do we change the paradigm? Quite hon- certainty — over a three-year service plan, for example estly, if I look at some other fi gures…. From 2004-2005 — of what funding is going to look like on that horizon. we were at 854. Today we're at 714. So we've had a net de- Th at has not been done, and again, I think the issue cline in terms of the number of students that are in those remains. I guess I would ask the minister if the budget programs. We had a high in 2007-2008 of 1,078. for library funding is going to remain frozen for the One of the realities that we've seen and we continue to next three years. Th ere was an announcement made in see…. Th at's why the world economic situation and the Budget 2012 that $42 million over three years, $14 mil- economic climate…. Why our government has worked lion per year, was going to be provided to public libraries. so hard for a balanced budget, for maintaining our triple- Could he — since it's no longer disclosed in a separate A credit rating is so that we ensure that we keep business line item — confi rm if that is also the case going forward moving ahead. in this budget? [1515] I know, clearly — and I've seen it in my own commun- Hon. P. Fassbender: Well, to the member: I almost ity — that when we have economic challenges, a home- feel like you were in my offi ce at a meeting I was at today builder who has an apprentice employed…. If they're not talking about libraries. As the member may be aware, I selling homes, the fi rst people that are let go are the ap- have been a passionate supporter of libraries. In my mu- prentices. Th at is a trend. Th at's why our economy is so nicipal career I was the chair of the Fraser Valley Regional important. Th at's why we're working so hard to build a Library and, as a matter of fact, in that capacity joined strong economy and a secure future — so that we open with other library organizations throughout the province. those things up. I came and spoke with the then Minister of Education In our discussions this morning amongst the minis- about the whole issue of library funding. tries, we recognized clearly that we need a very compre- We are proud of the fact — I'm proud of the fact, as the hensive and very detailed marketing strategy on how we minister — that in the next three years the library fund- open the doors to the thinking of parents — about their ing will remain at $14 million per year for each of the children, about young people, about thinking about other three years in the fi scal plan. careers, that there are going to be opportunities. We know we're going to have a million jobs in the R. Fleming: Well, I appreciate that answer. I guess the next decade that are going to become available. We need question, then, would be: if the government is holding the people to fi ll those. We're going to continue to work the line and having three successive years of frozen fund- with all of the partners to make sure that we create the ing on libraries, why not accept the recommendation of environment where those opportunities are available and the Union of B.C. Municipalities? I ask the minister as a realized, and where students see that a career doesn't ne- former mayor, again: why not accept that recommenda- cessarily mean that they have to have a university edu- tion, which is very strongly supported, and just reinstate cation. the line item in the budget? Th ey need the training and the skills to get jobs that [1520] pay very well. And as I said earlier, opening up other parts of our province, building communities — not camp Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member is correct. Th at was mentality, but actually building communities — where one of the questions that I had. I remember the discus- people want to live. We do that through an integrated sion as the chair of the Fraser Valley Regional Library: program, and we're committed to continuing to do that. "Has that line item been removed so it can be tinkered with or played with in the budget and so on?" What we R. Fleming: I wish I had time to follow up here on ap- have is a great relationship with libraries and with local prenticeship programs, but we are running short on time. libraries and the various organizations like the Fraser So I'm going to have to, in order to cover other topics, just Valley Regional Library. move on for the time being. I think the important thing here is that it remains I just wanted to ask the minister about the library line an item in our budget. It's not in the blue book, but our item in the budget. Municipal libraries are now within communication in our relationship with the libraries is the Ministry of Education. In Budget 2012 the line item that that item is remaining at the level that it is today and for library funding was no longer specifi cally broken out will for the next three years. We will continue to dialogue and reported. with them in the future. I think that whether or not it is Local governments which fund municipal libraries a separate line item is only an issue if someone is con- were, not surprisingly, concerned about this. So at the cerned you're going to do something with it, and our Union of B.C. Municipalities last year a resolution was commitment is that we're not. 774 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

R. Fleming: I don't want to, really, turn up the heat in minister has just said that basically, it's up to the boards of the Birch Room, because it's quite a warm place, but I did education and the schools themselves to decide how they want to talk about sex education next, if I could, because fulfi l a curriculum requirement, but I'm just wondering if it's in the news again. Th ere's a new report out about there are any standards that schools have to meet. British Columbia youth in published journals, peer- I mean, for example, if a board of education were to reviewed. It comes from a fairly involved study by the try and employ a discredited form of sex education, like University of B.C. that is based on the provincial adoles- an abstinence-only type of program that you see in the cent health survey, a very large sample — 30,000 students. United States, which have been proven to be ineff ective Th ere were some, I think, interesting fi ndings for pub- and even counterproductive and against broader societal lic health offi cials and for government around cultural and taxpayer interests around eff ective strategies for pub- diff erences and some of the eff orts, as to whether they're lic health dollars, wouldn't the Ministry of Education be eff ective or not, around helping young people whose fi rst able to have some kind of minimum standard that would language in the home may not be English to be informed rule out strategies that are demonstrated not to work and about sex education. at least set a bar that boards of education have to meet? While I may not expect the minister to have digested this full report, although it does have an impact on his Hon. P. Fassbender: What is very clear for the Ministry ministry, of course, I just wanted to…. It seemed to me, in of Education is that local boards are in the absolute best reading the article, that the obvious question for him to- position to refl ect the needs of their communities and day would be if the ministry is actually tracking whether their constituents. Of course, the ministry does provide schools are providing sexual health education to B.C.'s information through the superintendents of achieve- adolescents. ment and will work with boards, providing whatever background information and material, but it's not been Hon. P. Fassbender: I read the same articles. I have not a problem for the Ministry of Education. It will not be a read the whole report. Our ministry staff and I are going problem. I don't think getting into a hypothetical discus- to read the report with interest. I think that from what I sion on the issue is going to bear any value other than…. see on the surface in the media reports, there are some I totally support, and our ministry does and our gov- interesting questions that are asked, particularly with ernment does, that local boards of education best refl ect certain cultural groups. Within the ministry curriculum their communities. Th ey best refl ect the desires of their local school districts, of course, are charged with provid- community, and they have that debate at the community ing and the assurance to work in their communities with level. I think that's where it should stay — in commun- their cultural groups. ities, with parents, with the local community to ensure I come from a community that has 160 diff erent lan- that they refl ect what the desire of their community and guages spoken, diff erent cultural backgrounds. Each of the various groups within it are. them is unique. Very oft en with new students who come, where English is a second language, the whole issue of S. Chandra Herbert: Th ank you to the minister for an- fl uency and the language that's used to communicate swering my question concisely. I'm predicting. I'm look- some of the issues throughout the curriculum…. Each ing into the future. school district is charged with working within their vari- I'm just curious what the cost of the ERASE Bullying ous communities to ensure that they do that. strategy is. Has the program required additional funds or We are very clear that sex education is part of the over- costs to school boards? What would those be? all curriculum at the appropriate times, at the various lev- [1530] els throughout their school experience, and we continue to look at issues like this. We work with the local school Hon. P. Fassbender: I've had a very comprehensive districts to make sure that they continue to work with the briefi ng since I've become Education Minister, and I various groups within their communities. But because of think this is one of those areas where we clearly heard the diversity that we have throughout the province and from the public that there's a need — the unfortunate within communities, even neighbouring communities…. situations that we're all aware of. [1525] What I think is important is that we found that the I know that the city of Surrey and the city of Richmond response from everyone in community was overwhelm- have diff erent issues that they deal with, and we encour- ing, to the point that we, to date, have trained over 4,000 age them to make sure that they stay sensitive to that. people — that have already been trained as part of the As I said, we will be looking at the report in more detail. strategy. We had more sessions than we planned for because the R. Fleming: I must admit I was surprised. In 2013 the uptake from educators, whether they were in the pub- researchers' conclusions about the lack of standardization lic, the independent, the First Nations communities…. in B.C., as well as culturally appropriate strategies…. Th e Each of them became partners in this process because, Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 775

as we were talking about, each community refl ects a dif- see if they've reduced the number of bullying incidents, ferent dynamic. First Nations have diff erent issues. So the number of racist incidents or sexist incidents? How we've seen tremendous response, and that's only on level do we know if this is working? 1 and level 2. [1535] We have committed to $4 million over the next fi ve years on this program, but that only refl ects the invest- Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member was correct. Part of ment we're making in the training. Local school districts, my business career was in the whole area of social mar- as an example — the release time that they give people to keting and behaviour change. I had a lot of experience go to the training is a cost that they bear. But I don't even in that, and what I realize is that in a lot of areas — un- look at it as a cost. I see it as an investment in changing a like the number of people that smoke which was able to culture in our schools and in our communities. be tracked within certain parameters, not totally — for What we have seen, and I have personally have seen, is something like this, there are no baselines that we're that this program has not only aff ected the school climate, starting with. We are anecdotally aware, as I'm sure the it aff ects the whole community, because the community member is, in our own community about issues that is getting engaged — community partners, who see this come up and incidents. as a need. So the value of what we bring to community What this whole program does is establish some of through this program is felt by many people across the those baselines through a number of things that are part spectrum. Th at's why we're going to continue to support of the training component. Th at includes using some of it and even see it grow within community. the reports in the training that we're asking the com- One of the things I feel very strongly about is that if munity or the schools, our safe schools coordinators, to community embraces a change in culture in this area, do. We're establishing some of those baselines and also then community will be the winner. It shouldn't be a pro- the reporting tools that we have. As we get reports, we gram mandated; it should be a program that we all par- can start to track over time what happens with incidents ticipate in. We've provided the catalyst with this funding that might be happening today that start to diminish. I and with the training programs, and as I said, we've only mean, that is ultimately our goal. touched levels 1 and 2 so far. Th e other two levels, 3 and We also want to ensure that in the case, for example, 4, are yet to come. We're excited about the response that of research that has been done with First Nations com- we've had so far. munities who feel unsafe in their school environment, we And by the way, Jennifer McCrea from the ministry is are going to be measuring, through surveys that are done, the person who is very passionate about it and is working how that perception and that feeling changes. with communities. I just appreciated the briefi ng that I We're also encouraging local school districts and com- got and what is happening at the community level. munity organizations to establish some of those param- eters within their own community because, again, there S. Chandra Herbert: Th ank you to the minister. I may be cultural issues that need to be refl ected in that, think the answer showed that it's always unwise to pre- the diversity of cultures in various communities. dict the future. We're doing everything we can to make sure that this I'm still…. If possible, it would be helpful to get the program sets the baseline. Th at's what it started to do. It cost. I've read a lot about the program and followed its builds on the baseline, both with what we can do and our development. Hopefully, others will have as well. safe schools coordinators can do but — more important- But if the minister could commit to providing, if it was ly, I think — what communities do to see a change in at- an obligation — he said it was not — of school districts titude and behaviour as a result of that. Th at is going to to participate, what the costs would be of participation. take us, I think, into the future, but we're working very A number of school districts already had very eff ective hard to encourage that at every single level. bullying strategies, very eff ective programs, and some questioned whether or not this would be an additional S. Chandra Herbert: Will the baseline be publicly re- cost to what they already had, potentially forcing them portable — say, on the ministry website — so that the to cut back on programs they'd already developed. So if public can see how their school district stacks up or how that's possible, I'd appreciate it. the ministry is doing with the program? Secondly, will I wonder if the minister could…. As a business person, this also be reportable for private schools? he would know — as a politician, he would know — that there's a common refrain: if you can't measure it, you Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e satisfaction survey is already can't change it. What kinds of measurements are being on line. We have an on-line reporting tool. We will be done to show if this strategy is eff ective? showing the results of that. Th e challenge in something We know that there's a lot of talk about it and there's a like this…. Th is is not a mandatory program; it's a vol- lot of learning and work in schools, but what are the base- unteer program to some extent. lines? Are we doing a survey of all students every year to [1540] 776 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

Th e other part that, of course, we will hopefully be re- you should be using. We do know that every single school ceiving feedback and information on is at the community district in the province has a code of conduct. We encour- level, because we want to see a program like this. I think age them to continue to review that and to look at what I've said this before. At the community level, organiza- they can do to improve any form of discrimination that tions, recreation commissions and all of the other agen- is unacceptable. cies that are involved start to gather information to see We have seen some school districts in the province where the problems are, where some of the cultural issues that have taken the initiative at the local level, with the are, and that community works on it. Anything that we involvement of the community and their students and capture, we will be reporting. their teachers. As an example, Prince George has a gay- I think there is one thing that I would say. It's not about straight alliance club that's led by an openly gay teacher. comparing an independent school to a public school or Th e ministry believes that that's where it should reside one school against another school, because the dynamic — within that community and with people who want to of culture in any of those is unique to that environment. stand up passionately and talk about discrimination that I think we would be almost bullying by saying, "Well, this they may be feeling, no matter what it is. school's doing better than that school," when, really, what Th at's where we go. Th at's the position we're taking. we're encouraging them to do is to take this seriously — Th e province is not going to pick out any particular cat- and that any form of bullying, no matter what it is, be- egory, because the minute we do that, where do we stop? comes unacceptable in the communities and the schools, [1545] and that we work together to fi nd paths to change that Th e human rights code is very clear. Th e local com- attitude. munities and their codes of conduct are very clear. Every school district has one. I just encourage people in com- S. Chandra Herbert: I'm guessing, based on that an- munities to stand up and advocate for those things that swer, that the minister also does not agree with the Fraser they feel their community, again, should refl ect within Institute's studies on schools and comparing them back their cultural context as well. and forth — potentially a form of bullying. D. Routley: I'd like to ask the minister whether he's Interjection. aware of the situation facing the Nanaimo school district, where they're considering school closures and consoli- S. Chandra Herbert: "No assumptions," he says. So dations that seem to be based on a shortage of resources, maybe he does support that. and what his plan is in terms of helping the district deal My question is…. I've raised for years in this House the with those challenges. challenges that lesbian, gay, bi and transgender students face. Many school districts do not have specifi c codes of Hon. P. Fassbender: I was aware of the people that conduct which specifi cally speak about policy to support were in the gallery today. I'm glad they came down. I saw lesbian, gay, bi and trans students. the petition that was brought forward. Th e previous Minister of Education was quoted as say- I think one of the fi rst overriding principles that I be- ing that there were going to be changes to fi x that, poten- lieve as minister is that any school closure in any com- tially, to make sure every school district had to do that, munity is a very emotional situation. I faced one in my but then, when questioned again, said no, he did not sup- own community that I, as mayor at the time, became pas- port such changes. sionately involved with — not because I didn't realize the So it's very unclear to me when we're going to actually reality that the district faced in making some decisions. ensure that every school district, and also independent Quite honestly, in the case of this particular school schools, will make it so that lesbian, gay, bi and trans stu- district, since the last ten years we've had a decline in en- dents are supported, are refl ected in the curriculum and rolment of over 3,500 students. Currently the district has also have the right to start gay-straight alliances in their capacity for 15,585 students, but the enrolment is 13,698, schools should they need to. If the minister could provide so there's a diff erence of 1,887 students. I recognize that a specifi c response for lesbian, gay, bi and trans students. any school district and the board of trustees who are duly elected by the community to make decisions and who Hon. P. Fassbender: Let me say this. Th e fi rst baseline are accountable to the community for the decisions they for every single community, for every school, is the B.C. make, have to make some hard decisions. human rights code. We support that as a government. I also recognize that the Nanaimo-Ladysmith district We think that the content of that and the wording be- has a ten-year plan of enhanced education through fa- hind it and the wording within it covers a variety of po- cilities through a learning plan. Th ey have worked hard. I tential discriminatory practices, and we do not support am also aware there were criticisms of a lack of consulta- discrimination at any level. tion, and yet I know that they spent a signifi cant amount Our message to local school districts is: that is what of time with the community, getting feedback from the Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 777

community, and then made the recommendations that as complete as I feel I need to be on the record in order they have brought forward. to be understood. Th e community rose up and said they were not happy Th e second point is I am a strong believer, as is the gov- — or some members of the community — so they've ernment, that local communities make decisions and are extended that particular consultation period up till accountable for them. I also encourage a community like December to look at some of the individual decisions this to be open and welcoming to any sector of the com- that are made. munity when they debate an issue like this. You know, when I asked staff to give me some sense of I'm not going to speak to the specifi cs, because I wasn't what we've done in that community…. We have worked there. I don't know who was invited. From my under- with the district, of course; we've provided another $22.6 standing, and at least in the information that I have, it million for seismic upgrade in that particular district; we was an open, public process. It's been extended. I think have, since 2001, invested more than $13.1 million in a community and the First Nations community should new school, an elementary school, and additions to one take the opportunity to express their points of view, as other elementary and two secondary schools. In addition should any other sector of that community, as to what to that, they have received over $5.8 million for build- their concerns are. ing envelope projects in fi ve elementary schools and one My message to the community is: keep putting the secondary school. pressure on your local board to make the decisions. Th ey But because they are faced with an enrolment de- are charged with doing that. Your responsibility is to do cline and there is no short-term sense that that enrol- exactly what they're doing: have their voices heard. ment is going to turn around quickly, the board, as it is, is charged with looking at: how do we look to the short D. Routley: I appreciate the concise nature of that term and to the long term, and what decisions do we answer. have to make? I think they have worked hard to do that. Th e empty spaces that the minister refers to. Do any of I do not think it is the place of the minister or the min- those numbers include spaces that are not currently con- istry to intervene in a local decision unless we felt there sidered adequate classroom space? In other words, space was something that was signifi cantly off the rails. From in schools that have been closed but have not yet been what I can see here, this board has worked hard. disposed. Or does he mean actual desks in classrooms? Th ey're facing tough decisions. I remember in my own community, when we had the challenge, people were call- Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e numbers that I used is the ac- ing for resignations and all of those things. I just don't tual operating capacity of the school district. If a district think we can start to intervene in local issues like that, has closed a school, that number is taken out of that num- and I think the community should do what the com- ber. Th ere aren't schools that are closed or classrooms munity is doing: express their points of view. Th e local trustees have to make their decisions, and they'll be ac- that are closed that are calculated in that number, be- countable for those decisions at the next election cycle, cause it is only the ones that are within the operating plan. which is not that far away. It happens to be in 2014. D. Routley: Well, it's the understanding of some D. Routley: With time running short, I'll beg the min- people in the district…. Th ey were told groups that were ister to be concise with his answers, because the com- leasing closed school facilities and had been leasing those munity has a number of questions it would like me to for, in some cases, over ten years, that the district need- ask, and I'm sure they'd appreciate my opportunity to ed to dispose of those sites because they were being con- ask all of them. sidered in the inventory of empty space. [1550] As a result, deals and negotiations were undertaken for One of the problems with the consultation process is those groups to purchase that space. In a couple of cases, that the Snuneymuxw First Nation claims to have not that's happened, much to the benefi t of those organiza- been adequately consulted around the education of their tions. But the indication was that the ministry was con- children. Th ey contribute over $1 million per year to the sidering those spaces, which could never be reopened as school district's operation, and they have a great concern classroom space. One is a theatre; another is a group that about the lack of consultation they've experienced. Is serves disabled adults. there anything the minister can off er to the Snuneymuxw But the district had a mandate to get rid of those First People? spaces, because they were considered empty space. Is that a misunderstanding? Hon. P. Fassbender: Concise is in the eye of the be- holder. I think it's important when I'm asked a question Hon. P. Fassbender: Concise. That is a misunder- that has signifi cant import and potential for misinter- standing. Th at has never been communicated to the dis- pretation that I'm very clear. So I will be as pointed and trict and nor would we, in those kinds of situations. 778 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

D. Routley: Is the minister aware that one of the signifi cant push-back. schools that has been closed, by the result of a vote on Given the fact that the Snuneymuxw First Nation feel a bylaw a couple of weeks ago, was in fact one of the outraged over a lack of consultation, would the min- schools that has received funding for seismic upgrade? ister consider appointing a special adviser to step into [1555] the district, review its progress and give advice — and also provide extra time for the community to respond Hon. P. Fassbender: I don't have the list of all of the to this plan? approvals and when they were done over the last decade. Th e minister has indicated a delay in consultation, but As the member knows, the seismic upgrade program has that delay is around schools that are either not target- been working for quite a while. Th ere may have been ap- ed for closure or are simply being reconsolidated. Th e provals for seismic upgrades on certain schools that may schools targeted for closure will not benefi t from that have been done, but then the planning envelope changes extension. within a district and a school may be closed. Th ose are Basically, I'm asking: would the minister consider the realities of a shift ing environment in school districts. appointing a special adviser in these circumstances — Again, I don't have the list, and staff doesn't have the which I hope he would consider — and what are the cri- list here, but if you would like to do a follow-up with the teria for appointing a special adviser? ministry staff , they can give you the fi gures of which ones were done and what the eff ect has been on the schools Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e short answer is: no, I won't. that are currently under consideration. But the longer answer to that, and why I won't, is — I go back to what I said earlier — that I believe in the demo- D. Routley: I can let the minister know that South cratic process. I believe in the autonomy of local gov- Wellington Elementary, which has been closed, was ap- ernments. I believe that they have a responsibility to proved for a seismic upgrade this year. It also receives an communicate with their communities, to engage their outlying school grant because of its distance from the communities. board offi ce. I understand that the outlying school grant What I would do, and what I have said publicly in this will continue for a couple of years if the school is closed. regard…. I think the local school board needs to con- What I would like to know is: will the seismic upgrade tinue to engage all sectors of their community. I don't funding then be available to the district for use in other have the legal authority to intervene in this situation, nor schools? In other words, the parents in that school feel would I even consider it. I think it is absolutely critical as though their school is being closed and the approxi- that the citizens of the community do what they're doing. mately $1.5 million total from those two programs will be Th e First Nations community, the other people in the taken and used elsewhere in the school district. So they community, the 1,800 signatures — I believe they need feel unfairly targeted. to take that to the school board to say, "Here are our con- cerns," if they haven't already. Maybe they already have, Hon. P. Fassbender: As the member, I'm sure, is aware, but to ask the Minister of Education to intervene I don't the seismic program is done project by project. It be- think is appropriate, and I'm not prepared to do it. comes part of the seismic program. [1600] V. Huntington: Th ank you to the minister and his If a school is closed, that funding does not shift to staff . I'd like to take the fi rst opportunity, if I can, to con- somewhere else, because it was for a specifi c project and gratulate the minister on his appointment. It's a big and it had a particular parameter around it. However, I will interesting department. I'd also like to thank his staff , say this for the benefi t of the member's constituents. Mr. Stewart and Mr. Dirksen, for meeting with me fairly We know that Nanaimo-Ladysmith has a number of extensively on the busing issue, which is what I'd like to seismic issues. What happens in the program is that we canvass with you and your staff today. then move to the next priority. We absolutely are com- I was extremely appreciative of the time they took. It mitted to meeting the needs of the seismic program in was a very extensive discussion, and I was pleased to Nanaimo-Ladysmith, and we will continue to work with see that there was some consideration of movement on the district in meeting those needs. a couple of the factors — not the one that I think is the problem, but Mr. Stewart did say that there was, perhaps, D. Routley: Given the fact that the community is some room to relook at the rural factor and how it ap- showing quite an overwhelming reaction to the ten-year plies to Delta South and perhaps the geographic factors facilities plan…. I've yet to speak to a single constituent as they apply to Delta South. who supports it — not one — and I've heard from hun- [1605] dreds who don't. Th e petition I introduced today, I think, We know that that won't solve the problem, however, was 1,849 signatures, collected in 24 hours from a com- so I'd like to just discuss the busing issue and the deci- munity that is a postage stamp in size. So there's a very sions made by the department and how they've impacted Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 779

my community. decision on Delta's school busing funding. My request Let me start by saying that I understand fully probably to the minister is (a) I'm very pleased he's committed many of the answers that you would likely give me. Th at to meeting with the school board, but (b) will he take is that the initial review of the student location factor was another look at how this review of the student location requested by the provincial school trustees. I understand factor has impacted just a few of the municipalities and that. I also understand that they have block funding and districts in the province? We just simply have a situation they can move the funding around as they choose. Th at's that is so unsafe for the students in Delta that we're not certainly one of the issues that the ministry is constantly sure how to resolve it. advising me of. [1610] But I also have said to the ministry, and I think the Delta school board has too, that they have looked at every Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e member is correct. I know single option they can come up with, and they have de- Delta well. I've had many discussions, in my former role, cided that for them to pick up the costs to continue the with the mayor of Delta about transportation issues, transporting of students by bus would severely impact which impact not only school students but seniors and their classroom funding. Th ey've chosen not to do that. other people who need to get places. Transportation is So at the moment we have what has amounted to be a signifi cant issue throughout the province in commun- one of the two or three biggest issues I've encountered ities — not just in the Lower Mainland. in my time both in local government and here. It's caus- Th at said, we do recognize there are probably six dis- ing some of the most distress I've seen with parents in tricts in the province that have some unique issues as it the school district. relates to the transportation issue and the way the popu- Delta, Minister, and certainly for your staff — and I'm lation is dispersed because of things like agriculture in sure that with all the letters the school district has sent some areas. In other areas it's other factors. you, you know this — is unique in the Lower Mainland. We have a technical review committee that we have It's the largest municipality in the Lower Mainland. It asked to sit down and take a look at those unique issues has 22,000 acres of agricultural land, 10,000 acres of bog and to determine whether or not some adjustment in land. It is criss-crossed by Highway 17; Deltaport Way; that formula is warranted because of those. Of course, Highway 91; Highway 99; River Road — probably the that would be looked at. busiest industrial road in the Lower Mainland. It's got I think it's important for the member also to know, so the new South Fraser perimeter road coming on line, that we don't miscommunicate back to your constituents, Highway 10. that if we make an adjustment, for whatever the reason Th e students in the outlying areas…. Th ere are three might be, that money is going to have to come from the distinct population areas. You know Delta well. Th e stu- overall envelope, so it means we take something from dents cannot get to school unless they are bused, par- here and we move it there. Th at is always the challenge ticularly the elementary school students. Th ey cannot of local school districts in making those tough decisions. go across those highways. Th e smaller ones cannot walk We just talked about a previous one a few minutes ago. along the ditches. Th ere's a section of North Delta that's I will say that I'm well aware of some districts — like severely impacted by the lack of busing too, and that's even here in Saanich — where they have come up with that area around Watershed Park where they have to walk a formula where parents have to pay an additional fee right alongside a forested area. for busing, because as the member knows, busing is not Delta has received a 47 percent reduction. Th at's how a requirement under the School Act. It is not a legal re- the review on the student location factor impacted it. It's quirement. Because of that, that creates those kinds of the fourth…. Only four other districts in the province challenges. received less money. We are going to refer to the technical review commit- Delta South…. It's kind of like the issue I'm sure you've tee. It's made up of a number of individuals, including heard from the members for Peace River South and Peace superintendents, who could sit down and take a look River North. Th ey're having the same problem. How do at that and say: is there perhaps some adjustment that the students in the agricultural areas get into the residen- should be made in some of those areas? Th at work will tial areas safely? Th e only way they can do it is through be done. We are committed to referring that to them, and busing. Th ere is no transit, not in the agricultural areas. then we'll see what comes out of that. Th e costs to the parents, if they were to pick up the cost of a busing system, are outrageously high. Th e school dis- V. Huntington: I can't ask for much more than that. trict and the school board have told me it's $1,700 a stu- I'm really pleased that the lobbying, I guess, the pres- dent. I know your offi cials felt that was somewhat high sure that has been put on the ministry and yourself, has and that they would discuss that issue. at least had that opportunity to have the technical com- Th e issue here is how the algorithm has been applied mittee look at it. It's very important. I think it will make and how the student location factor is impacting the a diff erence. 780 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

We're fully cognizant that a fee structure is likely to of portables in Surrey school district? have to be put into place. It's how much that burden can [1620] be asked of the parents. I look forward to that review. I hope it's suffi cient, that it solves some of the problem, and Hon. P. Fassbender: As the member for Surrey- I thank the ministry for its consideration. Fleetwood, and Surrey-Fleetwood being an integral part [1615] of the city of Surrey, the member knows that I'm acutely aware of how fast Surrey is growing. Th e challenge with The Chair: Welcome to the member for Surrey- growth always is trying to stay up with it and project it Newton. properly and know where the pressure points are go- ing to be. H. Bains: Th ank you, hon. Chair. I would like to take Th e one thing that is very clear, of course, is that when this opportunity on camera to congratulate the member growth happens and we see that it isn't exactly where for Surrey-Fleetwood. I want to congratulate him for the we thought it was going to be, we need the fl exibility to portfolio. provide classroom space. Portables, while they are not A question is, now that the minister is from Surrey…. the ideal solution, at least provide the space in the areas We have some serious issues with the classrooms in where students are. Th en transportation issues are not as Surrey. I think if the member would know…. Hon. Chair critical because it is in their local community, so we work and I had the opportunity to attend a walkout by students with that within the planning environment. in Earl Marriott School — and the Tweedsmuir School But we have been working and will continue to work also walked out — because of lack of space. closely with the city of Surrey, as one of the fastest- Th e parents are all concerned. Th e teachers are con- growing areas in the province, if not in the country. Our cerned. There's no expansion. In those two schools challenge with them is to project as best we can. We know there's no room to place portables, even if they wanted to. — I know — the parents are concerned about the future. It's not the walkout itself, but it's what's behind it — that Th e commitment I made running in Surrey-Fleetwood it took the students to take this action. I mean, it is not was that I would work to try and plan for the future common in this part of the world that students in high growth — not just what we've already had but what we school have to take that kind of drastic action: walk out know is still coming. Th at is going to be a challenge. of their classrooms and try to make a point to the gov- We've already purchased land for future second- ernment that we need more classroom spaces. ary schools in Grandview Heights and Earl Marriott Now, the minister will know that the Surrey school Secondary, as an example. We recently announced a new board in 2009 actually wrote to the Minister of Education secondary school in Clayton North, and we also are go- at that time. Th ey mentioned a number of things, saying ing to be looking for future elementary schools both in that since the 2005-06 school year 2,700 new students Clayton North and in Grandview Heights. had been added to the Surrey school district. Construction is already underway, as the member I'm Since that same time period, 2005-2006, the Surrey sure is aware, of two new elementary schools — Katzie school board had not received government approval for and Goldstone elementary — and construction has additional-space projects — since the 2005-2006 capital started on additions, permanent additions, to Panorama plan. As a result, as they were showing in that letter, they Ridge and Fraser Heights Secondary. had to add more portables to the existing portables, and I think the important thing for the member and for the they were talking about more students coming on line people of the city of Surrey to know — and I appreciated, in the coming years. when I got into this myself and asked a lot of questions At that particular time when the letter was written, in — that since 2001 the province has invested more than 2009, there was no commitment coming from the gov- $276 million in 49 capital projects. Th at also includes ernment that, yes, there would be some capital available some very necessary seismic upgrades and also includ- to the Surrey school board. Having said that — that's a lit- ed 12 additional site acquisitions so that we can prepare tle history on the background for the minister to absorb for where we know today the growth is going to happen. — the issue hasn't gone away yet. I remember — I believe Th at includes the potential for ten new schools in Surrey it was 2011-2012 — the government did announce a cap- school district. ital plan. In part of that — I believe it was $300 million Just to give you a bit of a sample, and I could rattle off for the province — Surrey would get, we were told, about a list going back to 2001, we've had Creekside Elementary one-third of that. since 2001, Dogwood, Green Timbers, Ray Shepherd, Perhaps the minister could tell us: what has the Surrey Serpentine Heights. I can go through the entire list, but as school district been promised since that time? How much late as two thousand…. I've got a number of pages of pro- actual capital expansion money is available to the Surrey jects that have been done since 2001. But as I mentioned, school district? And what's in this particular budget as in 2013 Clayton North area secondary — we acquired the far as adding more classroom spaces to ease the problem site. Clayton area elementary — we also acquired a site. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 781

So we're getting strategically placed. announcement continue on, year by year? I think the more important thing, the message that I I'm looking at the budget here for the Ministry of send to the people in our community, is that when addi- Education, 2013-14. Th e capital for public schools is tional capital dollars become available, Surrey is one of $469 million, and then it goes down in '14 and '15 to those pressure points that we have to respond to. It is a $423 million. Th en it goes down further to $415 million. priority, will continue to be a priority, for the ministry, My question is whether what was promised to Surrey in and we'll continue to work with the school district to that announcement will continue on. Will there be any make sure we plan as eff ectively as we can. increase? Th e Surrey school board said — at that time, when H. Bains: I appreciate the answer that the minister that announcement to deal with the needs of Surrey is giving, but at the same time, I'm disappointed that came — that it would go toward about one-half. Th ey're minister aft er minister goes back to the same message looking for $270 million to have ten schools to deal with — what they have done since 2001. Th at's not the ques- the current situation. My question is on how far that an- tion. Parents out there know that; teachers know that. We nouncement goes to deal with that issue and whether the know what went on from 2001 till 2005-2006. commitment continues on. Is it going up this year, next What I was referring to was the period after 2005- year, the year aft er? Is it staying the same, or is it com- 2006. Not a single dollar in capital was approved to add ing down? additional classroom space in Surrey district. Th at's the whole issue. Th at's why we are falling behind. Th e min- Hon. P. Fassbender: I hesitate to continue what the ister talked about: "Well, we didn't know the expansion member deems as political rhetoric, but I want to talk was going to be this, so we had to make some temporary about political realities. Th e reality is that as part of the measures." Everyone knew. In the 1990s they knew. In $353 million that was announced in 2011, there were the 2000s they knew that Surrey was growing. eight approved projects for Surrey. Th at totalled over [1625] $100 million. Included in that were two new elemen- It's growing to the tune of a thousand new citizens tary schools, two secondary additions, purchase of land every month, and the forecast is that it will continue to for four future schools to accommodate the projected grow. It wasn't news that all of a sudden, more students growth that we have. came than we expected. But the issue here is that from 2005-2006 until this letter was written in 2009, and even [M. Bernier in the chair.] going further to 2011, not a single dollar in capital was approved for that period of time. Th at is part of that future-proofi ng. I think what's im- Yes, there were some schools built. Yes, there was some portant in that context is that there is a fi scal reality that capital investment that occurred during that time. But we face. When I was in the community — as I am in the that was approved prior to 2005-2006, so we're talking community now — I've had the mayor, I've had the board about that period where, for whatever reason, there was of trade, and I've had everybody talk to me as well. We no capital available to Surrey school district. need to ensure that our economy moves ahead so that we I was hoping that we would go in a diff erent direction, have the capital dollars to invest in the growth that we because the minister is from Surrey, than the previous know is coming. We know where it's coming. Th at's why ministers, who would go with their political rhetoric. I we've acquired the land to build those capital projects. think what we need to do is…. I want to work with the [1630] minister, and I know that the other members from Surrey I can assure the member, as I've assured the people in want to work with the minister to make sure that we deal the community, that as soon as more capital dollars are with this very serious issue. available than what we've already invested, Surrey is a We know this problem isn't going to go away. We will priority in that. We have many other pressures from other get more people coming in. More students will come in. communities throughout the province, but Surrey is the It's an anomaly in the province. Surrey is one of the only fastest-growing. Clayton and a number of those areas are districts that have seen growth in school students. growing. We also know that here in Langford, per capita, My question. Maybe the minister could give me some it's the fastest-growing in the country. We've made some numbers — for the people, the members, the ad hoc com- investments there. mittee. Th e Surrey Board of Trade, the Surrey city coun- We are looking at the pressure points, and Surrey is cil are all on that ad hoc committee — the students. Th ey absolutely one of those. We're committed to doing that. know what is available to them out of that $300-some- million that was announced in 2011. We were told that H. Bains: Th ere are so many questions there, but I one-third was for Surrey. Perhaps the minister could con- know there are time constraints here. Th ere are so many fi rm those numbers. Of that number, what was the total members who have issues from their districts, so I'll be number available from that announcement? Will that short. 782 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

My question, then, would be, quickly…. Th e minister schools in this pilot project and submitted them to the talked about $100 million out of that $300 million an- Ministry of Education for approval. Since the submis- nouncement that was made. Is that the only capital avail- sion by the Vancouver school board, General Gordon able to Surrey now? Is there any additional? As I said, it Elementary School has proceeded to the design and goes to deal with only half the problem that Surrey has construction phase. Funding was approved in 2012. — one-third or one-half. Construction is expected to begin later this year. Th en, Is there any plan, for this coming year or next year, to similarly for Queen Mary Elementary School, that has add to the $100 million? Or is that it right now — that proceeded to the next stage as well. Th e ministry has Surrey has to wait until the new dollars are available? announced its project agreement with the Vancouver school board on November 29, 2012, at an estimated cost Hon. P. Fassbender: Th e amount that I talked about is of $16.7 million. the amount that has been announced and allocated. We [1635] continue to work with the district, and as soon as addi- Th e seismic upgrade at Queen Mary, which is of similar tional dollars become available, we will be dedicating vintage to the Strathcona Elementary School, is to begin those to the city of Surrey as one of the fastest-growing later this spring. Th e ministry's press release stated: "Th e areas. exterior of the 1914 portion will be preserved, while the At this point, the $100 million — the announcement interior will be renovated to provide a new, functional, that has been made for both expansion and for site ac- 21st century learning environment for students," includ- quisition — is it at the moment. ing LEED-standard upgrades. So of the three schools, the two schools in Vancouver– J. Kwan: Congratulations to the new minister. Point Grey have been approved and have proceeded and I'll get right to the point. I'm asking questions about moved on to the next stages. Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, Lord Strathcona Elementary School. Th is is a school that somehow, for some strange reason, continues to lag be- has been designated for seismic upgrading for more than hind. We have not yet received the fi nal approval. eight years — almost longer than I've been here. I've writ- Of course, just prior to the election, aft er much work ten to the Premier and to his predecessor on several oc- has been done — documentation has been submitted casions regarding this project, just to update the minister from the Vancouver school board to the Ministry of in terms of the history around this. Education — they were told that they had to go back and The school has continued to receive delays in the do another value analysis. Th at was never asked for 20 approved renovations and seismic upgrades for Lord months ago when this was actually going through with Strathcona Elementary School. Th e Vancouver school all the process. board has acknowledged the need to act on this. It has Th at said, the community was hugely frustrated, as long been identifi ed by the Vancouver school board that the minister could well imagine. Th e Vancouver school Lord Strathcona Elementary School is of the highest pri- board could not understand why this was being done. I ority for seismic upgrading as a capital project. then wrote another letter to his predecessor who then Back in 2005, as a response to the fi ndings of the prov- told me the value analysis would not take long. It's now ince's seismic assessment program, the former Premier, aft er the election — more than eight years of waiting with , committed to upgrading all seismic- many announcements and approvals in process. ally unsafe schools and announced a list of high-risk Just exactly where are we at with Strathcona in terms schools that he pledged would be upgraded by 2008. of the seismic upgrade? I'm really hoping to hear from Strathcona Elementary School was identifi ed as a high the minister that the approval has been fi nalized and that priority for seismic upgrades and ranked number one on the Vancouver school board and the people in the com- the Vancouver school board's list of priorities. munity will be notifi ed of this so that their children can Th e government then made a second announcement, actually get on with knowing that their school is going in September of 2008, making Strathcona Elementary to be upgraded and the chaos that's going on there right School one of the three pilot projects, the neighbour- now will soon be gone. hood centres of learning schools in Vancouver. Th e other two schools, as it happens, belong to my colleague from Hon. P. Fassbender: I'm sure in the history that the Vancouver–Point Grey: General Gordon Elementary member has in front of her, she is also aware, or may not School and Queen Mary Elementary School. All three be aware, that this project was not brought by the school of these schools were included in the 2008 pilot project district to the ministry until October of 2011. because, aft er extensive study by the Vancouver school Now, I fully recognize, in the work that I've done so board, they were prioritized as a priority requirement far and the briefi ngs that I've had, that the project has for upgrading. been talked about in community and by the Vancouver In October of 2011 the Vancouver school board ap- school board, but until they actually bring the project to proved the project defi nition reports for all three of the the ministry, we cannot put the wheels in place in terms Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 783

of making sure that the approvals move forward and General Gordon, funds have been approved for capital we can get the fi nal approval. I hope that in the coming upgrades, and for that the community is certainly very weeks we will be able to look at that. grateful. But unfortunately, our school board's been ham- I think the other thing that's important in this pro- strung again by the approach of the ministry. ject…. Th ere are fi ve buildings on the site. It's a very Th ere aren't suffi cient funds to take the approach that complex project. It is not one that is a simple project to was planned, which was to upgrade General Gordon engineer. We've had the engineers society involved in this while the students were on the site at an annex building. in terms of what is required, because each one of those Now the students are going to be bused to two schools buildings has a unique attribute to it as well. very far away, near the University of British Columbia, All I can say is that we are on it. When it came to us…. for two full academic years, leaving not only the kids and We are moving it ahead as quickly as we can, and I am parents in limbo but also the Jericho Kids Club, which is optimistic that we will be in a position where fi nal ap- a vital aft er-school program. proval can be found in the coming weeks, but we're go- Neither host school is large enough to accommodate ing to have to wait for the detail part of that to be taken. everybody, so they've actually been split into two separ- [1640] ate groups. Th is is also of great concern to the parents at Queen Elizabeth Elementary and Queen Elizabeth J. Kwan: I know time is tight, and there are many Annex, who are worried about yards being full of port- MLAs who wish to ask questions. ables for two years and also scarce resources at the It's interesting when the minister says that the infor- schools as well. mation was not passed on to the ministry until 2011, yet Minister, I only have a few schools in my riding, and the announcement from the former Premier was made in yet many of them are incredibly concerned about under- 2008. It was announced and announced and announced funding issues. You've heard from my colleagues. I have again. Documentation was submitted. Th en the min- modest expectations about this budget, and so my ques- istry — actually, about 20 months ago — asked for a tion in relation to this budget is a very minor one, with value analysis, which both the Vancouver school board hopes for next year's budget. and the school committee challenged, why that wasn't Will you commit the necessary budgetary funding, asked for 20 months ago. In any event, it's been delayed come to Vancouver–Point Grey and meet with the par- and delayed. ent advisory councils for Bayview Elementary, General Can the minister then confi rm that the value analysis Gordon Elementary, Queen Elizabeth Elementary and is now complete and he's saying that the announcement Queen Elizabeth Annex to hear these problems from is coming, potentially, in the coming weeks? If the value them fi rsthand so that in the 2014 budget we can make analysis is not complete, can the minister tell me the some progress on these issues in a non-partisan manner? date when it would be completed? If it's been completed, [1645] then is the only thing we're waiting for at this juncture fi nal approval? Hon. P. Fassbender: First of all, I am planning on meeting with the Vancouver school board, which is, I Hon. P. Fassbender: Yes, it's complete, and we are think, the appropriate meeting for me to have initially, moving ahead. Th e announcement, I hope, will be com- because I need to hear their priorities and discuss issues ing in the coming weeks. that they have throughout the entire district. My understanding is that Bayview is part of our seis- D. Eby: Th e parents at Bayview Elementary are incred- mic mitigation program. I don't have the detail in terms ibly concerned about the state of their school. Th e school of the sequence and where that is. It is a priority. I think would be reduced to rubble in the event of an earthquake. the concerns that you've raised have been brought to the Not only that; the youngest constituents in my riding go attention of the ministry through the Vancouver school to school in a dank basement that has pipes overhead lit- board. erally wrapped with warnings that say: "Beware: asbes- We will ensure that it moves ahead, along with literal- tos." Th e top fl oor of the building has a classroom full of ly dozens of projects that I see on the list for this school mold. Th ere's no access for children with disabilities in district in the city of Vancouver. We're going to con- the neighbourhood; they have to go elsewhere to learn. tinue to work with them, prioritizing and making sure Parents have been waiting for years for improvements they happen. to this school. Th ey've been very long in coming — be- cause our school board has to choose between basic A. Weaver: I have a few questions for the minister. Th e maintenance and actually providing teachers to teach. fi rst one concerns what is, apparently, a growing trend Despite these dire conditions, their teachers and admin- within many public sectors — a burgeoning administra- istrators there are some of the best in the province. tion and overall administrative costs relative to the front- My colleague for Mount Pleasant mentioned that at line delivery costs, whether it be in health care, advanced 784 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

education or education. While I recognize that you won't the potential effi ciencies in top-end administration costs have the answer to this question today, I was hoping to at the district level? In fact, the question is: are you con- seek the following information. sidering amalgamating some of the existing districts, par- Over the past decade, up to and including the budget, ticularly in some of the urban areas of British Columbia? what is the percentage of managerial and administrative costs compared to front-line operating costs in the K-to- Hon. P. Fassbender: I think it's a very good ques- 12 system? I'm looking for trend data on an annual basis tion. Number one of what we are doing is working with over the last ten years showing, essentially, the percentage school trustees. of costs associated with teachers' salaries and services in As I said earlier, and I don't know whether the mem- schools, relative to the ratio of that with managerial costs. ber was here, I fundamentally believe in the three levels I recognize that it'll take some time, but the trend I'm of government. I also believe that one of the keys in that, looking for is an increasing percentage going into man- as we are doing in the core review within the provincial agement as opposed to education. Th e reason why I say government, is working with local school districts, with that is that I've constructed such a trend in advanced the trustees, to look for effi ciencies in every area we can. education as a former chief negotiator for the faculty as- I just mentioned the backroom shared services — those sociation, and the trend's rather disturbing. Th e money kinds of things. is going into administration and less to the front line. I don't think the issue of amalgamation is something As a follow-up, then, a question: what provisions, dir- that we've talked about, in terms of the government man- ectives or guidelines have been implemented or are being dating amalgamations. But I think, like everything, if considered to mitigate and reduce top-end adminis- there are, as part of our discussion and looking for effi - tration costs as an overall percentage of the Education ciencies, things that become obvious to the ministry and budget? to local governments and trustees, those things will come to pass because they will be obvious. Hon. P. Fassbender: Absolutely, it's an issue that the Th e philosophy of looking for effi ciencies is absolutely ministry has been looking at. at the heart of where we're going in every single area and One of the interesting fi gures that I'm aware of is that every corner of every area so that we fi nd every dollar we across the province we have 220 district administrators. can to invest back into the classroom. If you divide that by sixty, it's less than four on average now. Th at's an average number, but my sense is that we A. Weaver: Th ank you, Minister, for the answer. Th e have not had a growing trend. reason why I raise it, of course, is that every school dis- [1650] trict in the province of British Columbia has a payroll. As a matter of fact, when you look at what used to exist Every district has a human resources. Every district hires when I was a school trustee, we had district principals its own soft ware, and there must be some effi ciencies. So that travelled around the district who weren't actually I'm glad that the province is actually looking for some front line. I know from personal experience that I am of these effi ciencies. Combined with my earlier asser- now seeing vice-principals in classrooms teaching much tion that there has been growth as a percentage of over- more and even principals in schools that are teaching. So all budgets…. we are looking at that, as part of effi ciencies, as something Th ere may have been cuts in administrative costs, but that we need to continue to encourage. there have also been cuts on the front line. My assertion As part of our new education plan, we're also looking is that the administrative costs as a function of total costs at issues like shared services, which are the backroom have actually gone up, as it has in advanced ed in the edu- things, where we can reduce costs that provide more re- cation system in British Columbia. sources going into the classroom. Th is is absolutely, fun- A question with respect to attracting teachers. Th ere damentally what we need to do — to have more dollars are elements in the school system where there is an dedicated to individualized learning and education of insufficient supply of teachers, particularly in some students right through the continuum, including skills high-school levels of mathematics and physics, and par- training and so on. It is a priority for us. ticularly in rural regions. We will provide you with some of the statistical data My question is: is the ministry considering introdu- that you've asked for. It'll take the ministry staff a bit of cing any incentive programs to actually be included in time to collect it, but we will provide that to you subse- any potential contract bargaining or, with universities, quently. to introduce, perhaps, programs whereby you might pay the fees of students going through university under the A. Weaver: Th is is a question with respect to school condition that they actually work in a particular school boards. All ministries are undergoing a core review in a particular rural area in a particular subject fi eld? to achieve a balanced budget. In the Ministry of Th is sort of process does exist through military train- Education…. Th e question is: will this review include ing of medical practitioners and in the training of medic- Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 785

al practitioners in other provinces as well. So the question [1700] there was: are you considering that for teachers in rural Th at kind of creative thinking and looking at oppor- regions or in subject areas where there's low demand? tunities to do that — having common specs, looking at [1655] LNG as one of those opportunities — are absolutely a pri- ority for us, and we'll continue to work on it. Hon. P. Fassbender: Th ank you to the member. I'm noting that we're getting to a particular hour and that M. Farnworth: I've got a couple of questions for the we need to move on. Minister of Education around some of the schools in Th is is a large issue, and I want to make it very clear school district 43. that one of the reasons that we're looking at a new frame- Th ere's been a signifi cant amount of development on work for education in terms of our negotiations and our Burke Mountain, and it's anticipated to grow even more collective agreements…. signifi cantly over the coming years. One of the priorities We don't have a supply problem. We bring in about for the school district has been a high school. Th at was 600 teachers a year from other provinces, that move the initial priority. My understanding is that that had here. Th ere are about 400 that come from other markets been approved by the province. internationally, through immigration. We graduate 2,000 At the time the request was made and at the time the teachers every year, and we have 850 jobs. So it's not a province was making the decision, it was expected that supply issue. It's a distribution issue, and the distribution most of the people moving into the new development issue is largely aff ected by collective agreements. would not be young families but would be families that Th e member may or may not be aware that clearly, a had kids who were already well into the school system teacher who teaches in a northern district for fi ve years and that a high school was what was needed. doesn't have a leg up when they want to move to another Th e reality has been quite diff erent. In fact, the types of area. Th ey start at zero again. families buying into this area and moving into this par- In terms of that whole collective bargaining process ticular area in Burke Mountain have been young families and some of the issues about the future of education, en- with young kids, and what the school district really needs suring that we have the right people in the right place is is an elementary school. one of the reasons that the government has agreed with Th e current school, Leigh, is going to be more than the BCTF to start bargaining some of those key cost driv- over capacity, signifi cantly over capacity. Th eir priority ers and some of the issues that aff ect the very teachers has changed. I know that they have made contact with that they represent. the Ministry of Education in terms of getting that prior- My commitment on behalf of the government is…. ity reworked. Instead of approving a high school, they Th at's why we want to be at the table and start looking at would like to see an elementary school. Can the minister a new way of doing business in the future. tell me the status of that request and whether or not the elementary school has been approved? A. Weaver: Th ank you for the answer there. My fi nal question comes to, again, trying to work across minis- Hon. P. Fassbender: Absolutely. Th at area, we see, is tries with respect to school bus fl eets across the prov- an incredibly fast-growing area. Like everything, local ince. Th ese are not in scope under the carbon-neutral school districts and communities make assumptions of government. who's moving in, but who actually comes may be quite My question is: to what extent is the ministry working diff erent. with, or considering working with, the Pacifi c Carbon It is the number one priority of the district. We're well Trust and the natural gas sector to perhaps transition aware of that. We're waiting for the revised capital plan these away from diesel to either biodiesel or natural gas, to come in October as part of their annual submission, for which they would earn carbon credits that are out of and we are working very closely with them to make sure scope? Th at would actually use carbon off set money in we meet the needs that are now identifi ed and that will the public sector, as opposed to possibly using it outside fi t their capital program as they bring it forward to us. the public sector. We're prepared to be more than fl exible in working with them. Th ey've had some real challenges, as I'm sure Hon. P. Fassbender: Th is was a discussion that we you're well aware, to deal with that growth and that dif- had this very morning about the future. We are looking ference in terms of the population that's coming in. We're at things like common specs for vehicle replacement. We going to do everything we can to be fl exible to work with spend about $20 million a year on bus purchases. them. We recognize that as we build a new liquefi ed natural gas industry in this province, we should be looking at op- M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that answer. I portunities to use the very products we want to market think it is crucial that if that's the priority, even though internationally, within the borders of our own province. a high school has been approved, we have the ability to 786 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

shift to what's really needed, which is an elementary munities. It's not a single approach. What we do is that school. we do not mandate; we encourage. Along the same line, one of the things that concerns I intend to work with the school trustees as a co- me…. I'm wondering if the Ministry of Education is play- governance partner to say: "One of your fi rst responsibil- ing a part in terms of identifying the problem or working ities is to develop a very strong working relationship with with school districts and local government to ensure that your local governments, with your regional districts or there's proper communication. Again, it's about develop- your metro regions or whatever, to be aware of where the ment taking place in communities and at the same time growth is intended to be." Included in that is transporta- making sure that school districts are aware of the scale tion growth that will help us to ensure that we can move of the development. people around and have healthy communities. I talked a little bit about this in the budget speech, and We encourage district staff to defi nitely work with I know that the minister was there. In an area that we municipal staff and regional district staff . We're going have in Port Coquitlam, in what's called the Dominion to continue to do that. I think…. I don't think; I know. I Triangle area, the community plan has changed over the have talked to school trustees and/or mayors or council- last couple of years. It's gone from light industrial to a sig- lors and said: "How is your relationship with each other?" nifi cant residential component, so now you're adding an Some talk to each other. Some don't. To me, that's just not additional 850 housing units of various kinds. acceptable as a basic philosophical stance. [1705] I think local governments and school districts repre- Again, that's going to result in a signifi cant increase in sent their taxpayers, their communities, their priorities. the number of kids. In that particular area, for example, Th ey fi t within a regional context. We are going to con- there's not an obvious school in the area. A lot of land is tinue, by every means that we can, to encourage them. in the agricultural land reserve. Th e area known as the It's as simple as asking: "Have you had a discussion Dominion Triangle is being rapidly developed in terms with your local government or your regional district of light industrial, retail and a residential component. about their plans?" As they come forward with their plans Th e nearest school is Blakeburn, which serves an already to us on capital projects and expansion, it would be good signifi cantly built-up area. for us to know that they've had those discussions so that In conversation with school trustees, they were not we don't make bad decisions. aware of that scope, of that kind of change. I said: "You're I will tell you that I was in a meeting in a school dis- going to need to look into the impact on that." One of trict just last week, where we had the mayors, the school the things that it brings home, I think, is the need for the trustees and the Minister of Education and the two MLAs ministry and the school districts to have a much better from that community all sitting in the room, talking understanding of the changes being made at the local about the school district's strategic plan, talking about government level in terms of zoning and development. the community's long-term plan. Th at's the kind of thing I'd like to ask the minister: being a former mayor, does that I, as the minister, am going to encourage, every op- he have any thoughts in terms of ensuring that better portunity I have. communication takes place so that the school districts [1710] are able to know what's going on and that the ministry itself — if what's required, for example, is a new school R. Fleming: I know we're getting towards the end here, site — is also not behind the eight ball, in paying more and then we will move on to debating a bill. I just wanted than we should, or is identifying land early on so that it to ask a question that I think maybe fl ows from some of is in place when it's needed. the discussion that other members have brought up too. When the, fortunately extremely rare, situation occurs Hon. P. Fassbender: Having been a local government where the Minister of Education has to dismiss a demo- offi cial, one of the things that I did…. One of the fi rst cratically elected school board and appoint an adminis- meetings I had was with the School Trustees Association. trator and put that board into trusteeship, it is of course, In a speech I made at a luncheon — I know that the op- I think all parties agree, the least desirable of any situa- position critic was at the luncheon — I talked about do- tion. But the School Act is clear. When the fi duciary duty ing government diff erently. I think part of that is, having of that elected board is not being met or there's another sat at Metro as a new regional growth strategy was de- violation of the School Act, there's very little discretion veloped…. I know that other regional districts through- about what the minister can or can't do. out the province are doing planning. We have that situation in a district here on Vancouver As we look at economic growth through development Island. Th e minister I think referred earlier, in response of liquefi ed natural gas projects and all of those things, to questioning from the member for Nanaimo–North it's identifying where the growth is going to be. I talked Cowichan, that an election is coming up. But it's not earlier, on one of the other questions from the opposition actually coming up. It's in 15 months from now. It is in critic, about building communities and planning com- November 2014. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 787

Th e fact of the matter is that this board was dismissed My question to the minister is: is there a ministry tak- early on, aft er it had been elected. For the vast majority of ing a lead on this issue? Is it Education, or is it Health? If the three years of this elected term, the province, through it's Health, I can address my questions when Health es- its appointee, will be running that district. Th is presents timates are up. Or is it the Education Ministry? And if problems for local autonomy. they could tell me what they're doing to ensure a prov- Th e minister has talked at length through these esti- incewide policy. mates about how the provision of education is about co- governance in this province. In this district it is not, and Hon. P. Fassbender: It is under the purview of Health it will not be for the majority of those three years. — whether it's anaphylactic or diabetes, we're guided by I would ask the minister to comment on a motion that the provincial Health Act — and that is appropriately the B.C. School Trustees Association has passed, which asked of them. Th ey are the lead agency, through the would amend the School Act, not to strip the power from chief medical offi cers in each of those communities. I the minister to dismiss school boards but to ensure that think that that would be the appropriate place to ask the these situations don't carry on for longer than a reason- question. able amount of time — say, six months, for example. Does the minister think that in those regrettable situ- M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that answer. ations where the ministry has to step in and appoint an Th e only other question I would have…. Is this an administrator, there should be time constraints on what issue, though, where Education is saying to Health: "Look, the term of appointment is? there's a lack of a comprehensive, provincewide policy within British Columbia"? I think the minister would Hon. P. Fassbender: I appreciate the question. It is a agree that it's not the best situation — where a district has very delicate issue, because the ministry and the govern- one policy and another district has another policy on a ment do not remove school boards easily. Appointing ad- health issue. Th ere really should be one common policy. ministrators is the last step. Th e democratic process has Has the ministry told Health that they would like to to be allowed to run its course. see a common policy across the province? What I will say is no, I do not anticipate putting a time limit in. I think the legislation has been written and is Hon. P. Fassbender: We have had discussions through designed to ensure ultimate fl exibility, depending on our ministry with the Health Ministry, and we are def- circumstances. I don't think there will ever be a piece of initely asking for some guidance on a consistent policy legislation in an area like this that can be that defi nitive. throughout the province. I appreciate…. I've had meetings with the school trust- ees about that very issue. I posed the question in one dis- R. Fleming: We've talked about the B.C. education cussion that I had: "What is the time frame? Six months?" plan through this set of estimates. I just want to ask a Well, what if something happens at 6½ months? fi nal question here — and probably for the entire esti- What we need and what we do have is ultimate fl ex- mates, depending on the minister's answer. ibility. I think we also have to have the assurance that due I think the central criticism that he'll be aware of, of process and the appropriate steps are taken, dependent the education plan is: where's the funding for it? A lot of on the circumstances. And they're all unique when these ambitious goals and high-minded discussion about indi- kinds of things come up. vidual learning plans to create better success rates in our Fortunately, they don't come up very oft en. In the case schools and uncertainty about how that will be achieved of the member that was here from Nanaimo-Ladysmith, I and where responsibility falls for that. fully appreciate there are people who are frustrated with Another criticism is that the issue of childhood vul- the process. Having been through a similar thing, I think nerability is not adequately discussed in the education the worst thing we can do is step in too early and not fi nd plan, yet in British Columbia today 30 percent of students ourselves in a position where we can deal with the issues coming into the system by kindergarten are considered in a fair and appropriate way. inadequately prepared to succeed at the very earliest stages of education. So that's a concern. M. Farnworth: Just a potential couple more questions. I guess the question really, though, that I would like For one, I'm actually more looking for some guidance to ask the minister is around one of the performance from the ministry. Th ere have been a number of issues indicators that was changed in his ministry — the ques- around, for example, children with diabetes who may tion is whether he would consider changing it back — have a reaction and how staff is able to deal with those and that is around aboriginal graduation rates in British situations when they happen. Some districts have one Columbia. policy, and other districts have a diff erent policy, or no I know that the government is pleased that aborig- policy. inal graduation rates are moving in the right direction, [1715] but they still remain more than 20 points behind other 788 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013

British Columbia students, so this is creating problems intendent of achievement and all of the ministry staff for those communities and for British Columbia as a that have been supporting you in answering the ques- province. tions that we had. At one time we had a performance goal to increase ab- I have no further questions. original graduation rates to 65 percent. Th at was long- standing in the ministry service plan. It was then reduced Th e Chair: Minister, do you want to make a few com- to 55 percent between the 2009-10 year and the 2011-12 ments? service plan. Given that the 55 percent, lower graduation rate for Hon. P. Fassbender: Yes. Just very quickly, I want to aboriginal students has now been exceeded — it's 57 thank the members for their questions. I think that as we percent — I would ask the minister: is it time to work move forward, we have a common goal, and that is to en- on a plan to realize aspects of the education plan with sure a great education system for every child from every aboriginal communities in British Columbia and work community in this province. with his federal partners, as we've heard their role in this in terms of on-reserve schooling and funding, to create a Vote 18: ministry operations, $5,329,349 — approved. more ambitious performance indicator so that in actual fact the ministry is obligated and responsible to strive to Th e Chair: Th ank you very much, everybody. We will make a bigger diff erence in the lives of aboriginal com- now recess for fi ve minutes. munities and their success in our schools? [1720] Th e committee recessed from 5:22 p.m. to 5:26 p.m.

Hon. P. Fassbender: We have record levels of invest- Committee of the Whole House ment in education — $5.3 billion. It's very clear that we are committed to funding education across the spectrum. BILL 2 — BUDGET MEASURES Aboriginal communities and aboriginal students are ab- IMPLEMENTATION ACT, 2013 solutely at the heart of that. Our goal, working with FNESC and the First Nations Th e House in Committee of the Whole (Section C) on communities throughout the province, is 100 percent Bill 2; M. Bernier in the chair. completion. Now, in saying that, we also recognize there are new opportunities. Th e committee met at 5:26 p.m. Th at's why our economic plan for growth of jobs and the economy is speaking directly to the very thing that Sections 1 and 2 approved. the member is talking about, and that is providing op- portunities to aboriginal communities and their students On section 3. to get skills training, to get jobs so that they can start to feel the success that is possible for them under a strong M. Farnworth: Basically, I'd like to deal with the car- economy and a secure future. bon tax section just altogether. Could the minister out- From my perspective and the ministry's perspective, line what changes are taking place and how they will we are going to shoot for 100 percent graduation for ab- diff er from the current regime that's in place? original students into whatever career choices they have. It may not be graduation to go to university. It may be Hon. M. de Jong: It is at its heart an amendment that into a skills program, but ultimately, it's that they get the provides an exemption on the payment of carbon tax to jobs they need, that they have the lives that they want, farmers who purchase certain defi ned types of fuel. that we build communities throughout the province. I think the $5.3 billion that we're investing is a signifi - Sections 3 to 8 inclusive approved. cant step. It's at record levels, We're going to continue to use every dollar that we have wisely. Th at's why we're On section 9. working with those communities as well. M. Farnworth: Section 9 deals with the Forest Act. R. Fleming: Chair, I don't have any further questions. Again, in a similar vein, could the minister outline the I would just want to thank the minister for answering changes that are being made here? Are they diff erent questions that I posed, and other members. I know we from existing changes and, if so, in what way? had a bit of a disjointed schedule over many diff erent days, gaps in between, diff erent committee rooms and Hon. M. de Jong: Th ere's a change included here as it all of that. relates to specifi cally allowing interest on a penalty as- I'd also like to thank the deputy minister, the super- sessment for unreported stumpage to run from the date Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 789

that stumpage would have been due rather than the date less than a dozen times a year, but when it does, having of the penalty assessment — presumably, a slightly longer the means by which a property owner who has made a period of time for which interest would accrue as part of mistake can correct that and still receive the benefi t of the penalty process. the homeowner grant made sense to me. Th at's why it's included here. M. Farnworth: Will this result in any additional rev- enue to the Crown? Is it anticipated that there will be Sections 17 to 21 inclusive approved. additional revenue to the Crown, compared to how the situations have been in previous years? On section 22.

Hon. M. de Jong: Th e short answer is no. Th is is re- M. Farnworth: On section 22. Th is impacts in terms of garded as a revenue protection measure to ensure that the charitable donations and the maximum amount that the tools exist to levy a penalty and, conversely, to get you can deduct. Can the minister give the rationale for the audit information required to assess the penalty in keeping the charitable donation rate as it is and not ad- the fi rst place. justing it, as would otherwise have taken place with the [1730] change in the tax rate? [1735] Sections 9 to 16 inclusive approved. Hon. M. de Jong: Th e really short answer is revenue. I On section 17. mean, the rationale could go further and say: "Well, this is statutorily a two-year temporary increase." But the M. Farnworth: The homeowner grant is probably intention in February was not to have the rate increase, one of the most popular grants or a grant that impacts a and this makes clear that it doesn't. But the short answer signifi cant number of homeowners right across British is revenue. Columbia. This particular change is included in just about every Bill 2 in every budget that is tabled. I just M. Farnworth: Can the minister give me a fi gure in want to confi rm with the minister that there are no chan- terms of how much revenue we're talking about? ges in this particular section, other than the traditional changes that occur each fi scal year whereby the threshold Hon. M. de Jong: I'm advised that in adjusting the rate is adjusted in regard to changes in the market. to 16.8 percent for the two years, the amount, I believe, Is that correct? And there are no changes that impact per annum is $23 million. on seniors that would see a reduction in the grant that they are receiving? Sections 22 to 26 inclusive approved.

Hon. M. de Jong: To the member's question, the an- On section 27. swer is no — no substantive changes to thresholds or how it impacts between homeowners or the seniors cal- M. Farnworth: In section 27, in terms of land tax de- culation. ferment, "'dependent child' means a person who is a de- It does, however, address a particular problem that has pendent child as described in section 1.1" is the change arisen, and that is a circumstance in which a property that's being made. Can the minister tell, one, a rationale, owner owns more than one property and incorrectly or and more importantly, two, how many will be impacted inadvertently claims the homeowner grant against the by this change? wrong property — that is, the non-primary residence. Maybe I should start by correcting the question. Does To this point, in correcting that, the legal mechanism the minister have, not how many people…? More to the has not existed to allow that property owner to then cor- point: how many people are now likely to take advantage rectly claim the homeowner grant against their primary of this? Is there an estimate? I think that's a better phras- residence. Th is amendment will provide the legal au- ing of the question. thority, in correcting the mistake, to allow that property owner to claim the homeowner grant against the correct Hon. M. de Jong: Th anks to the member. As I think property, their primary residence. the member and committee members know, the defer- ment program allows qualifying homeowners who fi - M. Farnworth: Can the minister give an indication as nancially support a child under the age of 18 presently to how many properties they expect to be impacted by to defer property taxes. Th e changes here allow for the this change, how oft en this happens? expansion and the inclusion of a broader range of per- sons who qualify as a "dependent child." Hon. M. de Jong: I am advised that this happens about In the circumstances, if this were to pass, homeowners 790 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 18, 2013 who fi nancially support a child over the age of 18 may fl ip side that deferments…. If there is an issue or a prob- also defer taxes, provided that that child is enrolled in an lem, then the individual homeowner may have a poten- educational institution or is disabled, and that the child tial problem. Th at's the question that I was wondering is either a child who allowed the homeowner to defer about, so if there is any information, I would appreciate under the existing program or is a child or stepchild of that from the ministry. Th at would be great. the owner. So it's an expansion of who qualifi es to trig- Also, at the same time, with seniors, if that becomes a ger the deferment entitlement. problem where you are seeing, aft er the house is sold, a I don't have a number or even an estimate. Th e advice signifi cant portion coming back to the province through I've received is that there won't be vast numbers of fam- that method. Th at would be great. ilies. Well, I can say this: there probably are a signifi cant number of families who would qualify under an expan- Hon. M. de Jong: We'll endeavour to obtain both. sion. Our experience with the property tax deferment pro- Sections 27 to 30 inclusive approved. gram to date suggests that it probably won't be…. It'll be a small percentage of those who now qualify who take ad- On section 31. vantage. Yet one is anxious for them to know that this is out there and they can. We're not anticipating signifi cant M. Farnworth: Very briefl y, the minister has explained numbers to immediately take advantage of this, although a couple of times in second reading debate the purpose of it will be there for them if they so choose. this section. I just want to ask the minister if…. [1740] We're both familiar with the case where this particular section comes from. Are there other cases that have come M. Farnworth: Does the ministry, then, have a…? Can to the ministry's attention where this section will apply, they give fi gures on how many people do take advantage or any idea of the number of properties, potentially, that of the program and what the deferred tax total is, to date? this section will apply to? Hon. M. de Jong: On the program that the hon. mem- Hon. M. de Jong: Again, I'm advised that there were ber is talking about, I am advised that just over 1,200 on average about eight to ten cases of a similar variety, — 1,209 — families with children have tax deferment where the deceased wasn't in a position to actively farm accounts. Th at amount at the moment is estimated at the land and therefore the successor was disqualifi ed $7.287 million. from the exemption. [1745] M. Farnworth: Can the minister give any fi gure as to how many people have, I guess, defaulted on even- M. Farnworth: One fi nal question on this. I'm glad for tual payments? Of course, it is a deferment. You have to repay it. Has the ministry had any issues in terms of the eight to ten. I mean, it's not many, but for the people people not being able to pay back aft er they've deferred involved, it's a big deal. How would this impact if, for their taxes? Has that been a challenge? Is there a calcula- example, let's say someone is hospitalized for three or tion around that? four months and is not able to farm? It's not their fault that they are not able to farm. Th e reality is illness has Hon. M. de Jong: I think the member asked…. With got them in hospital or into a care home. How would respect, we've been talking about one part of the program. that impact? Of course, there's the seniors deferment as well. Staff are not aware of an incident of default. That Hon. M. de Jong: A good question. Th e way this is in- doesn't guarantee that there hasn't been one. We'll check tended to operate is that whereas now, until this change and, if that is not the case, advise the member. takes eff ect, there is the obligation for the deceased to have farmed to the time they expire, the provision still Th e program, as I think the hon. member knows, is requires that the property have been farmed, but it can be set up in a way that makes default diffi cult insofar as farmed by a family member of the deceased or a family there are minimum equity requirements in place. As a farm corporation. charge against the property, the deferred taxes become Th e requirement that the titleholder per se has been payable at the time of a proposed transfer. So from the directly farming, in circumstances where they're incapa- Crown's point of view there's a built-in safety provision citated…. Th at exclusive requirement will no longer exist. that would make a default in the conventional sense dif- fi cult. M. Farnworth: I appreciate the minister's answers. Sections 31 to 35 inclusive approved. I understand what he's saying. Yes, the Crown is, in es- sence, protected. Mind you, at the same time there is a On section 36. Thursday, July 18, 2013 British Columbia Debates 791

M. Farnworth: I am mindful of the time. might otherwise be engaged in smuggling activity. But off Tobacco tax is increasing. Th ere's nobody, I think, on the top of my head, I don't know what it is, in any event. our side who's opposed to it. It's a measure that we have been in favour of. But the question I want to ask the M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for his answer. I minister is: is there any indication that as taxes rise, the guess to me the key point is that the ministry is aware of likelihood of smuggling also increases? Has the ministry that and that they are ensuring in their decision-making taken that into account in terms of its calculation? Have process that that is taken into account. they done any analysis of where the problem point or the challenge point in terms of increased smuggling would Sections 36 to 38 inclusive approved. come into eff ect? Title approved. Hon. M. de Jong: Th e answer is yes and yes. I recall the member was a former Health Minister, as am I. Th ere does seem to be a tipping point beyond which smuggling Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the committee rise and activity, illegal transport of tobacco products, seems to report the bill complete without amendment and report occur. I can assure the committee that the amounts have the resolution and completion of the estimates of the been set. Ministry of Education and seek leave to sit again. Mindful of that fact, there are two reasons I'm hesitant to set on the record what the tipping point is. One, I don't Motion approved. know off the top of my head, and two, I'm not entirely certain that I would want to disclose that to those who Th e committee rose at 5:49 p.m.

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