3100 Primary Products Bill. [COUNCIL.] Questions and Answe1·s.

twenty-one years of age and upwards fullest consideration, and it is consid­ of a producer working on his parents' ered that the sub-paragraph proposed to farm, not for wages but for his keep .be omitted is quite .unnecessary. and pocket money only." Amendment agreed to. Clause as amended agreed to. The 'Ron. J. F. COATES: The Hon. Bill reported with amendments; re­ the Attorney-General has told the House port adopted. that in the Acts Interpretation Act the word "son" is int~rpreted to include the ADJOURNMENT. word "daughter." If that is quite clear ORDER OF BUSINESS. I will not bother, but if not I should like )lotion (by the Hon. F. S. Boyce) to move an amendment. In these day8 proposed: of equal rights for women I think the That this Rouse. do now adjoUl'n. House should take .the opportmiity of making this amendment. I ·move: The Hon. J. F. COATES: I desire to ask the Hon. the Attorney-General That after the word "son" first occur­ ring, there be inserted the f~llowing woi·ds what business he proposes to take on "or daughter." Tuesday next. Some hon. members in The Hon. G. NESBITT: 'I: have no the country ma.r require notice because objection to the amendment, ·but I have they may have to leave their occupa­ a distinct recollection of this question tions. arising in another place when the ·bill The •Hon. F. S. BOYCE: It is my was in the ·Committee stage. It was at intention to proceed on Tuesday next my own suggestion that an •hon. member with the ·Constitution Further Amend­ raised the question there, and sought to ment (Referendum) Bill, and if ai1y include daughter as well as son. It was time remains I may take the Defama­ held that "son" included "daughter" and tion Bill. Yice versa, the same as "husband" in­ Question resolved in the affirmative. cludes "wife"-a question which arises in Rouse adjourned at 6.10 p.m. until a similar Imy in another portion of the Tuesday next. Act. Amendment agreed to. Clause further consequentially amen­ ded and agreed to.

Clause 6. The Principal Act is further Thu·rsday, 20 February, 1930. amended-

Printed Question and Answer-Questions without (a) (ii) by omitting from sub-paragrarf1 Notice-Prison Labom and Road Works (}IoHon of (f) of paragraph (ii) of the same sub­ Urgency)- Crown Lands (Amendment) Bill­ section the words "with the arpp1:oval Transport Bill (second reading). of the Minister" frlld the :words "on the recomme.ndation of the board" and by inserting aft~ the word "withheld" Mr. SPEAKER took the chair. the words "or cancelled by the board." PRINTED QUESTION AND The Ron. J. RYAN: I move: ANSWER. That sub-paragraph (a) (ii) be str.uck out and that there be inserted iu lieu there­ NAMOI AND PEEr~ WATER of the following:- CONSERVATION. "by omitting sub-paragraph (f) of para- Mr. W. J. SCULLY ask€d the Mms­ graph (ii) of the same sub-section." TER FOR AGRIOVLTCRE,-Will he, before I have already referred to this amend­ the close of this session, refer the ques­ ment in my second-reading speech. The tion of theN amoi and Peel River wa:ter amendment has been framed after the conservation scheme to the Publie Questions and Answers. [20 FEB., 1930.] Questions,and· A 11swers. 3101

Works Committee for investigation and proposals which the Government has in report, so as to enable the respective mind; The only application that the water conservation lea·gues in the nbrth Government has had from Mr. Oleary and north-western centres to have a was when he asked for leave of absence definite opinion given upon this impor- for Mr. :Forster so that he could attend tant project? . a conference abroad. I know of no Answer,-! regret very much to have amount of money having been stated as · to inform the hon. member that the the probable cost of the trip. position is unchanged since I replied to a similar question ·by him .in December ROTHBURY COAL MINE. last. As then advised, investigations Mr. REID: Owing to the conflicting have not been carried out sufficiently statements regarding the output of coal far to enable the necessary data to be at Rothbury, has the Minister for Mines prepared in connection with a reference any objection to giving the House the to the Parliamentary Standing Com­ official figures? mittee on Public Works. The- Water Mr. BOOTH: In view of the fact Conservation and Irrigation Commis­ that no answer has been supplied to a sion has the scheme under considera­ question I asked last Thursday, which tion, and the Government is keeping has appeared on the question-paper for the matter under review; but it is im­ the whole of this week relative to the possible, as in the case of other pulblic aU-day workin~. at Rothbury Colliery, works, to proceed further at this junc­ and further, in view of the fact that ture, as owing to the present financial the 1Iinister for Mines has made state­ position and the limited funds available, ments through the Newcastle Herald jt is not possible to make an allocation which can be refuted, will he supply at which will admit of the necessary full the earliest possible moment an answer investigation being completed. to the question I have asked relative to a highly important and contentious QUESTIONS' WITHOUT NOTICE. matter? Mr. WEAVER: In reply to the 'hon. RAILWAY COMMISSIONER'S TRIP. member for 1\fanly, I have to say that Ur. LANG: Has the attention of the· the only set of figures other than tlowse 'Minister in charge of the House been I supplied to the press are those which drawn to an article in the Sunday Times appeared in a leading article of the Sttn criticising the proposal to send 1fr. the day before yesterday. Those are so A. D. J. Forster, Assistant Railway Com­ ridiculous and incorrect that I take this missioner, to Spain at a cost of £7,000? opportunity of pointing out that not Will the Minister lay upon the table of one fi~ure used by the Sun is even re­ the House the Chief Railway Commis­ motely near the truth. They stated that sioner's recent report in which he ob­ the average output at Rothbury Colliery jected to political interference with the had been 800 tons a day. Never in the Railway Department, and his letter to history of Rothbury Colliery has it been the Premier relating to 1\fr. Forster's 800 tons, or even 700 tons. It was barely proposed trip? Would the Minister say more than 600 tons in its most highly if 11:r. Oleary stated in his report that productive times. They also compared he would resign if the present political the output of Rothbury with a full staff interference continued? of miners with the output of Rothbury llfr. BUTTENSHAW: I know of no to-day with only a handful of miners, report furnished by the Chief Railway and attempted a comparison on: those Commissioner to the Premier or to the figures. It, therefore, is perfectly clear llfinister to the effect that he would re­ that the only set of figures in the press sign if political interference was con­ which were correct were those which we tinued. I do not think he has com­ issued officially. In regard to the ques­ plained in any shape or form of the tion of the bon. member for Kurri Kurri, 3102 Questions and Answers. (ASEEMBLY.J Questions and Answers.

I promise him that I will make a very Will the Minister, also, in the interests close investigation and will supply the of justice, lay all the papers in connec­ figures he asks for at the earliest oppor­ tion with that prosecution on the table tunity. of the House? Captain CHAFFEY: In reply to the POLICE PROTECTION: NORTH ·first part of the hon. member's question, SYDNEY. I am correctly reported. In reply to his Mr. SANDERS: Will the Colonial second question, that is a matter which Secretary c~mse inquiries to be made as will depend upon the facts as they are to whether a great number of police reported through the proper official chan­ officers have been withdrawn from their nels, to be dealt with in accordance with usual duties on the North Shore?· Will what the administration of justice de­ he also a~certain from the North Syd­ mands. There is no question of any ney Police Station whether continual political suggestion and there is no de­ complaints are being made of misde­ sire on the part of any person associated meanours committed at Northbridge with the Government to deal with any of through the absence of police officers? these matters except in so far as the If it is a fact that those men have been course of justice will be properly fo!­ taken away for other duties, as, for lowed, irrespective of any person, in instance, at the Rothbury mine, will the carrying out the definite obligation Minister take steps to send over there which rests on the Government of the those police officers who are walking country to administer justice and not; around the city booking up motor-drivers t(• inte!'fere with it, as has been sug­ carrying out their usual business in order r:ectcd. that they may protect the .People of the Mr. LANG: Referring to the answer North Shore? just given by the Colonial Secretary, Captain CHAFFEY: The detailing am I to understand that the papers han;­ .for duty of any officer in the police been referred to Cabinet for considera­ force in any particular position or loca­ tion~ If so, what is the purpose--a tion is the responsibility of the Acting­ further prosecution? Commissioner of Police. I have no de­ Captain CHAFFEY: The procedura sire -to give the Acting-Commissioner i~ a case of this kind is perfectly elPar. any direction as to what he should do It is not a question of any interference in any particular case. All I intend to with a member of this House; it is a do is to consult with the Acting-Com­ question of the administration of justice missioner in regard to the matter to regardless of persons. I~ast night in the which the hon. member has referred, but House the pressmen askei me if I had he and all other hon. members may rest anything to Eay, and what I said appears. assured that the Acting-Commissioner in this morning's press. The reason I of Police will handle the matter of the made the statement was this: I am re­ detailing of police for duty in whatever sponsible for the police force of this. area of the State to . which he thinks it State, the members of which are not will be to the best advantage to sE!nd allowed to speak for themselves. The them in order to preserve law and order matter is one which seriously reflects. in every part of the State. upon that honourable body of men, and because of the extraordinary wording of COAL I~DUSTRY PROSECUTIONS. the verdict I expressed my opinion on: Mr. BADDELEY: Is the Colonial my own responsibility. The question is Secretary correctly reported in this not one for Cabinet. I had no authority morning's press with respect to the mat­ from Cabinet for the statement I made,. ter of the prosecution of Mr. R. James, nor have I any for the statement I am M.H.R., and myself, where he is alleged making now. J\fy statemE!nt was made on to have said that in the interests of jus­ behalf of nobody but my~elf. I took tice he pro:;:>o~e3 to peruse the papers? action in the interests of justice owing- Questions and Answers. [20 FEB., 1930.j Questions and Answers. 310t to the extraordinary atmosphere sur­ will be discussed the matters which the rounding this case. The question is one hon. members for Wollongong and Cess- . not of politics, but of the administration nock have frequently requested me to of justice. In the interests of justice investigate, namely, the latest methods. of and for the sake of the reputation of the handling coal. It is an international police force I feel it is my duty that conference to be held at 'Cape Town, to· the matter should be considered by the w-hich all those interested in the rn iJ:ing­ Crown Law authorities and proper action industries of Australia have urged t~1e taken, if necessary. Government to send a representative. i1s a matter of fact, the 1finister himself BUTCHERS AND BAKERS: was requested to go, but I thought th,,t PROSECUTIONS. the Under Secretary, being a permal!C:lit Mr. VINCENT: Can the Minister officer, would. be more useful. representing the Minister for Labour and BUN~ERONG POWER HOL'SE. Industry inform me if it is a fact that at . the town of Moree sometime ago a prose­ Mr. OLDE: In the absenc~e to'f thr.. cution was instituted against a master Premier, I desire to ask the :Minister i1~ charge of the House whether it is a butcher and several of his employees for fact that some time ago the Civic Com­ starting work before the time stipulated by law or by regulation? Is it a fact, missioners invited tenders for ILO. Switchgear for Bunnerong power-house? also, that in the metropolitan area cer­ It it al~o a fact that Metropoli­ tain prosecutions have taken place of tan Vicars of Australia tendered at master bakers wiD have been found by £72,500, against the successful temler d inspectors in their bakeries preparing Ruwold Limited,. at £G9,000, a difference· for the day's work before the hour for of £3,500? Is it a fact; that if thr !:endm· opening? If the~e are facts, will the of the Australian firm had been acc-'"r;ted, Minister make representations with the it would have n:eant at least a year's. object of so altering the law as to per­ work for 120 men and would ha'"e meant mit persons, where climatic conditions spending £87,000 in wages in this Stntt:: :· or other conditions make it necessary, If it is a fact, will the Miniilte:r scr;­ to open · their businesses "prior b) the whether there is any possibility of hay­ hour stipulated for starting, providing ing the English contract cancelled, and they do not work more than the number the work given to an Australinn firm, of hours mentioned in the award. which will provide employment for men Captain CHAFFEY: I will bring the in this State? question under the notice of my col· Ur. BUTTENSHA\V: I am not aware league, the :Thiinister for Labour and In­ if the hon. member has stated the actuaf dustry, and let the hon. member have - facts, but I will have inquiries made and a reply as soon as possible. see if the position is as indicated ancllet the hon. member know. UNDER-SECRETARY FOR MINES: MISSION TO SOUTH AFRICA. HOSPITAL COMMISSIO~. Mr. ~ANG: I desire to ask the :Thiin­ 1fr. STUART-ROBERTSON: Can ister for :Thiines whether it is a fact that the 1Enister for Healt!1 inform the either the Government or he as Min­ House what has been the cost to date­ ister is sending Ur. Mance, the Under of running the Hospital Commission. Secretary for Mines, on a mission t•J including the salary of Mr. Love, South Africa? If so, will the Minister travelling expenses, office expenses, in­ inform the Rouse as to the purpose of the terest on capitalised cost of the office mission? building, remuneration paid to members, Mr. WEAVER: Yes. 1Ir. Mance, rho and also their travelling expenses? Has Under Secretary for }fines, win lcav:3 the board disco>ered any means of in­ for Africa on Tuesday next to attend creasing the reYcnue of hospitals; if so, an Intemation::tl Conference, at 1Yhid1 to what extent? 3104 Questions and Answers. (ASSEl\lBLY.J Questions and Answers.

Dr. ARTHUR: I cannot inform the COAI, MINING INDUS'l'RY. bon. member off-hand as to the cost of lvfr. DAVIES: In view of the fact the Hospitals' Commission. I suppose· that there are in the coal mining in­ that will appear in course of time to­ dustry approximately 5,000 men more getiler with information as to whether than that industry can carry, thereby :additional revenue has been raised in bringing about intermittency of employ­ eonnection with the institutions. ment and reducing wages very much below basic 'vage- MUDGEE WATER SUPPLY. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Will the hon. Captan DUNK: Is the Minister for member resume his seat. I wonld ask Public Works aware that there is a ve~y the hon. member, when putting ques­ grave shortage of water at Mudgee~ Is tions, not to bring in a number of par­ he aware that his department has, on enthetical observations which are :In the several occasions, made an agreement nature of argument. Let him ask a with the local council regarding an question direct, for the purpose of ob­ augmentation of the supply? Is he further taining information. aware that the question, which is now Mr. DAVIES: Is it a fact that more pressing than it was previously, there are in the coal mining industry is hung up apparently because the de­ approximately 5,000 men more than the partment does not supply the necessary industry can carry? Is it also a fact 1oan money? Can he, and will he, do that the large surplus of labour is re­ something in the matter? sponsible for reducing the wages of miners very much below the 'basic wage, :1Ir. BUTTE YSHAW: I am aware on account of the intermittency of that there is an extreme shortage of In view of these facts, would the water at Mudgee, in common, unfor­ work~ Minister be prepared to appoint a select tunately, with a number of other coun­ try towns during the summer months, committee from both sides of this House to go into the facts relating to the in­ but I am also aware that arrangements dustry and its future, and for the pur­ have been made with a view to am­ pose of doing something to bring the plifying the supply. Unfortunately, we present lock-out to a termination~ were not able to put the necessary money Dn the last Estimates, but I can as­ ?lfr. WEAVER: In answer to the first sure the hon. member that this supply, question, yes; in answer to the last two, with others, will be considered as a very no. urgent matter when we are preparing CITY OF SYDNEY LOAN. the next Estimates, and will, if loan Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: On the 13th money permits, be provided for. · instant the hon. member for Surr.y Hills asked the Premif!r for information in BATHURST WATER SUPPLY. respect of the employment of a Mel­ :Mr. C. A. KELLY: When the next bourne firm of brokers in connection "Estimates with regard to country water with the raising of a loan by the Civic supplies are being prepared w;ill! the Commissioners. I made inquiries and I 11-Iinister for Public Works seriously con­ am informed by the Civic Commission­ Bider the advisableness of providing suf­ ers .that they are quite prepared to deal -ficient money for carrying out the most with Sydney firms of brokers if they urgent work of completing the Bathurst have any offers to submit. The only water supply? reason they employed a Melbourne firm was that it introduced the business in :11r. BUTTENSHAW: I can assure the first instance. the hon. member that the department

-regards the Bathurst water supply as 1 Dne of the most urgent works, and he UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY CHARGES, -can rest assured that it will be pro­ MAITLAND. vided for if it is possible when the Loan Mr. CONNELL: I wish to ask the l~stimates are being prepared. :Minister for Justice if it is a fact that Questions and Answers. L20 FEB., 1930.] (lues lions and A nsu:crs. 3105 in the case of a number of men wl10 plgcmcnt of his employees has extended~ were- to have been tried at Maitland 011 Will he also confer with the Treasurer a charge of unlawful assembly the venue with a view to shortening the time that was ch.:.~ged from Maitland to WaUsend, elapses under the present system betwee:J. to meet the convenience of the accused '1 the receipt of claims end their finalisa­ If so, will the Minister state why the tion? presiding magistrate in the Maitland 1\fr. \VEA.RNE: Arising out of that police district, ~{r. Heed, was sent int0 question, I desire to nsk the }Iinister the Newcastle district to conduct that wllE~ther he will confer with the Farr.ily case when there was a stipendiary magis­ Endowment Commissioner with a view trate on duty in the Newcastle district, to making an exar11ple of some emplo,ycrs -and when there was a police magistrate who fail to forward returns to that officer relieving in the northern district? showing the amount earned by the claim­ 1\Ir. J. R. LEE: It is a fact that Mr. ants-information which is necessary to George Booth, ~!.L.A., called at the Jus­ claims being finalised 1 ticG Department and requested that in :Mr. DRU:l\1::M:O~D: In reply to the the interests of certain defendant:; who question of the hon. member for Wagga lwd been charged with certain breciches Wagga, I have alread3· taken steps o:t of the law at Ashtonfields, and who lived the suggestion which he made some tim3 at \Yallse!ld, the venue should be changed ago to bring about greater co-ordinntioa to Wall send in order to save· them the between the Family Endomnent De}::.::t­ .expcme of trayelJing from Wall send to ment and the Child Welfare Dcp:1rt­ :Maitland, and also the expense which ment with a view to preYenting undue wonH be incurred by the transport by hardship mmig to a conflict of claims or other means of a large number possibly delaying the granting of relief. of witnesses. To that I agreed, but in Jn reply to the question of the hon. -view of the fact that J\1:1'. Reed, the police member for Barwon, I will look into the Jnagistrate at Maitland, had had some matter. dealings with the cases, I specially com­ BROKEN HILf, AND WILCANNIA missioned him to hold jurisdiction in the HOADS. stipendiary district of Newcastle. It seems to me that my action was justified, 1fr. BUTTENSHAW: A few days ago because on Tuesday last I received a the hon. member for Sturt asked me telegram protesting against my action. whether it is a fact that the Works Strange to say, the telegram finished by Department is considerably behind with saying: "Our request for W allsend in the road work that is being carried out lieu of J\faitland has been circumvented." under the Federal aid grant in the The telegram was signed by one MeNeil. Broken Hill and Wilcannia districts. In reply, I desire to say that the work on the Broken Hill to \Yilcannia road is not FAl\IILY ENDOWMENT CLAIMS. nearly as far adYanced as it sho'J.ld be. J\fr. JGLPATRIOK: I ask the :Minis­ Steps have, howeYer, been taken to start ter for Education whether in vie\\' of the more men and to push on the \YO<'k in m1 Jong delays that occur in the determina­ endeavour to spend the mone:v du:·ing- the tion of the family endowment claims cm'rent year. If, however, it should Wlt made from time to time, he will confer be spent, the balance will not lapse. with the Tre:o:surer for the purpose of ()Otaining the information necesary for STEBI.r BRIDGE A'l' CARRINGTON. their finalisation-information the ab­ :Mr. BUTTEKSHAW: In answer to a ;;ence of which is not due to any fault of question asked by the hon. member for the officers of the department? Will the Newcastle a few days ago in regard to hon. gentleman also order the compila­ the removal of the Cowper-street bridge, tion of a card upon which each employer Carrington, I am informed that this mat­ must be registered and a declaration ter has been under co:::.sideration. Th3 made :;::; to the term over ;·:bidt the en- cxistiug st~~ectl~rc, nlthough of S:J1:1C ;:.:;~...

~ J. 3106 Questions and Answe1's. (ASSEMBLY·.] Questions and Answers-.

. is not reported as dangerous and would the 2lb. and 4lb. loaf 1>ere fair and reason­ probably carry on for some little time able on the basis of the reasonable cost of production, sale and distribution, an~ a longer. A decision has already been reasonable profit, subject to the follo1Ymg· given that the bridge will be ren~wed ~t .qualifications-- a convenient date and that no actiOn will The principal point, then, is that the be taken towards its removal. The pre­ Royal Commission recognised that the paration of plans for the new bridge will prices charged by the Victorian bakers be put in hand before the end of the were reasonable, after giving careful financial year and consideration will be consideration to all the facts. given to the question of its construction In New South 'Wales the ordinary when drafting the next year's Esti~ates. baking hand gets £6 Ss. 6d. a week, and Construction, however, will not absorb up to £6 16s. for forty-four hours work, 2ny great number of men. while the Victorian bakers get £6 Ss. 4d. PRICE OF BREAD. for a forty-eight to fifty hours' week. After having carefully reviewed the :Mr. THORBY: Yesterday afternoon I whole of the figures, I cannot vary the was asked a question by the hon. me;n­ statement I gave the House yesterday, ber for Willoughby in connection With which is that the price being charged the price of bread char~ed .by the. Co­ bv the Master Bakers to-day is in ac­ operative Company at Kurn Kurr1. I c~rdance with the price being charged 11ave made inquiries, and I find that th~ in Victoria or, if an;ything, a little less. price of bread sold by the Kurri Kurn Yet 'the price of wheat has been reduced Co-operati>e Society is 5~d. per 2lb. by approximately one-half since the year loaf. whether sold over the counter or 192•0-21. The price of flour has come deli~ered. I have also had the :figu:es down greatly, but the price of bread to turned up in connection with the pnce the consumer has not been reduced. The of bread sold by other shops throughout reason for this is the very high increase· ,Sydney, and I find that the rprice in in the wages paid to the operators in December last ranged from 3~d. to 6d. the baking industry. In 1920 the rate per loaf. Only three shops in the met­ of pay for a foreman in the baking ropolitan area are selling bread at 3~d. trade, in the County of Cumberland, per loaf. was £4 19s. 6d. per week; to-day it I have made inquiries from the .Mas­ is £6 13s. 6d. For ovenmen it was ter Bakers' Association, and I find that £4 19s. 6d., and has increased to £6 16s. the prices fixed by that body are 5~d. For doughmen it was £4 17s., and has per · 2lb. loaf, or 6d. if deliv.ered a.nd increased to £6 lls. For all other oper­ booked. Comparing these pnces w1th atives it was £4 14s. Gd., and has in­ those in other States, I may say t~at creased to £6 Ss. 6d.; the increases in Queensland the price of bread vanes amounting almost to 50 per cent. In from 5~d. per loaf at the shop or cart connection with all the others, the in­ to Gd. l)er loaf booked-that is, for 2lb. creases are on the same basis. loaves. In Victoria the prices range All the figures are here, and are avail­ from 5:ld. to 6:}d. whether owr the coun­ ::vble to hon. members to prove that the ter, for cash, or for bread delivered and booked. In New South Wales the prices statements I made yesterday are abso­ lutely correct-that while the cost of ran6e from 5~d. at shop to Gd. booked. Those are the prices fixed by the llfaster bread to the consumer has been main­ tained at approximately 6d. a loaf during Bakers' Association. I have the report of the Royal Com­ the whole period, the prices of wheat and mission which inquired into the prices flour have been reduced by one-l}alf. The of bre:1d in Victoria, and that report difference is entirely attributable to the sbted, that after having reviewed the increased cost of baking and delivering whole of the facts- the bread. During the basic period, 1st July, 1928, 1fr. LAKG: Is the Minister's statement Jo 30th June, 1929! the llrices charged for to be taken as a ministerial statement~ Prison Labour [20 FEB., 1930:] and Road Wor~s. ·3107

:Mr. SP.EAl

CHmcron, "\V. Morton, M. F. a bill of such importance to country Carter, H. C. Pollack, A. J. members, after quite a number of mem­ Chaffey, Captain Reid, A. A. E. E. V. Drummond, D. H. Reid, Major bers on tl-Ie Government side of the Dunningham, J.M. Ross, J. House had availed themselves of the o~i­ J<'itzpatrick, J. C. L. Sanders, E. L. _ portunity to discuss the measure, tiw Foster, W. P. Shand, Major Government saw fit to apply the gag on Glasgow, C. F. S. Thorby, H. V. C. Hedges, W. W. Tresidder, E. P. the motion for the second reaidng. I had Henley, Sir Tl1omas Vincent, R. S. intended to deal with one or two matters .Jackson, J. Walker,R:B. during the second-reading debate, but I Jaques, H. V. Walmsley, B. C. shall now be considerably restricted in Jarvie, Major W earne, W. E. Kilpatrick, M. Weaver, R. W. D. discussing the bill in Committee. Clause Lee, J. R. 2 provides that, without limitation as tJ Main, H. Tellers, home maintenance area, settlers will b0 Yrarks, E. S. Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. entitled to convert homestead selections, )~artin, L. 0. Ness, J. T. homestead farms, and Crown leases in Question so resolved in the negative. their entirety. For a number of yearti the general land policy of this State was CROWN LANDS (AMENDl\ffiNT) BILL. to restrict conversions to a home main­ IN COM1IITTEE. tenance area. This policy was after­ (Consideration resumed from 19th wards extended to permitting settlers to February vide page 30S6): convert land provided it did not sub­ stantially exceed a home maintennace Clause 2, Tlte Principal Act is amended- area. But we find in this bill that, in (b) by inserti1ig in subsection three of the connection with certain classes of tenure, same section after paragraph (d) the settlers are to be permitted to convert following new paragraph:- the whole area, irrespective of home (d) (i) The rent of the conditional maintenance area limitations. I do not purchase lease or conditional lease offer any objection to this in connection shall be paid annually in advance on the recurring date of the application with homestead selections. As a matter for conversion, and this provision of fact, I do not know that any home­ shall apply whether the conditional stead selections have been made avail­ purchase lease or conditional lease able since 1912. I think I hold one o£ was applied for before or after the commencement of the Crown Lands the last ·blocks that was made available Consolidation Act, 1913. as a homestead selection. 1.-Ir. PoLLACK : The hon. member can (d) (i) by omitting from subsection seven take advantage of this provision t of the same section the word "and" where secondly and fifthly occurring and Mr. FLANNERY: It does not apply by inserting in lieu thereof the word in my case because my land does not "or"; exceed a home maintenance area. Se> far as homestead farms are concerned, (iv) by. adding- at the end of the same the department has been making a good subsection the words:- An application under this section shall in­ deal of land available under this tenure, clude the original homestead selection and the tendency of the department has or grant or homestead farm as the case been to limit these farms to a home may be and any additional homestead maintenance area. The homestead farms selection or grant or homestead farm in virtue thereof held by the applicant at which have been made available during date of application, or where the appli­ recent years have not generally exceeded cant for conversion does not hold the a home maintenance area, and in a num· original homestead selection or grant ber of cases the area was less than or homestead farm he shall include in his application all additional homestead a home-maintenance area. ·when some selections or grants or homestead farms land was made available in the Hillston then held by him in virtue of such orig­ district the department afterwards al· inal holding. .lowed settlers to acquire additional areas. Mr. FLANNERY (Murrumbidgee) On the question of conversion the dis- [3.26] : J regre~ ~hat in ~onnection with trict sul'veyo!'. contende

exceeded a home-maintenance area, but \Ve must be very careful not to do any­ the local land board in a test case held thing to give the land-jobber and the that the land it was proposed to add to land-trafficker an opportunity of getting the original holding did not. I do not Ill. think the Committee need be greatly Mr. NEss: They are all land-jobbers concerned in reference to the homestead if they can sell to advantage! farm tenure. In connection with Crown Mr. FLANNERY: I do not think the leases, I think the Committee is en­ :Minister had that in mind. He said: titled to more information than has been There are many persons who are interested supplied. I offer objection to the holders financially in permitting transfers of holq· of Crown leases being permitted to con­ ings and in the main the criticism has been instigated by them. In a lesser manner vert the whole of their areas irrespective some criticism has arisen from those holders of home-maintenance reql!irements. of homestead farms and Crown leases who have been endeavouring to realise on the Mr. PoLLACK: easy terms and conditions under which the Mr. FLANNERY: I know that when Crown has settled them on the land. Crown leases are made available they Mr. BALL: That was dealing with are supposed not to exceed home-main­ something else altogether! tenance areas, but I shall give one in­ Mr. FLANNERY: Then how does the stance in which it is possible that at liinister explain this later pronounce­ the end of the forty-year period the ment made by him in his Ministerial land will substantially exceed a home­ statement: maintenance area. In this respect we Considering the great demand for Crown need to be very careful. The Minister holdings it is most desirable to restrict the himself sounded a note of warning in ballot to bona fide settlers and to keep such reference to this matter. On the motion settlers on their own holdings. for leave to introduce the bill I sug­ The Minister says ·that in connection gested that he should give the House with Crown leases these restrictions are information respecting these leases, for very necessary so that when land is made he had grouped the whole lot and given available-and some of this land later no information particularly with regard on may be made available under present to Crown leases. I know there has been conditions-it should be limited to bona a good deal of controversy regarding fide applicants. We know that quite a this mat.ter. When the leader of the number of men cannot secure land to­ Country party delivered his policy speech day, and therefore the Committee has at West Wyalong the present Minister to be careful in these proposed amend­ ments not to give substantially more for Lands was sitting on the platform than a home-maintenance area to any with him. Mr. Buttenshaw said the settler whilst there are others who can­ Country party proposed to allow the not secure land. holders of homestead farms to convert Mr. PoLLACK: the whole of their areas. A deputation Mr. FLANNERY: I hope this Par­ interviewed the Minister later, and after liament is not legislating only for to­ that and the statement made by the day and to-morrow. In land legislation leader of the Country party the Min­ we must look ahead. If those who ister, in a Ministerial statement that framed our land legislation in the past appeared in 1928, issued thiB word of could have foreseen what would happen warning. Mr. Ball said: at the present time, probably we should not find ourselves in the position we I think that the most harsh criticism of my department is coming not from the man are in to-day. It is the duty of the on the land, not from the genuine settler Committee to have regard to what the who is anxious to produce, but from the conditions are likely to be in twenty or land-jobber, the land-trafficker, and those thirty years time, when some of these agents "·ho make their wealth out of deal­ Crown leases will be reverting to the \ng in land. Crown. I ask the Minister to gi,rtant factor-not only what railway Lands it is stated that the area of Crown f;<6litie3 exist to-day, but the possibili­ leases made available during the year tie3 of raihYay connection being made to was 139;320 acres. tl:ose districts before the land reverts to :Mr. PoLLACK: What about homestead the Crown. Where 10,000 a.cres to~day farms~ i2 a living area, half that area in twenty ;ve:us time, with better railway facili- J\IJ:r. FI.. ANNERY: The homestead farm form of tenure is one of recent 1 ic.s, might form a substantial living area. L"nder this bill it is proposed to origin and in the majority of cases such allow the right to com'ert the whole of farms do not exceed home-maintenance that land, without regard to the im­ areas, but the construction of railways rortant factor mentioned by the hon. in country districts will probably make member for Dulwich Hill. No injustice the position of those areas different in is being done the holders of these Crown the future. lands; when the men took them up they Mr. PoLLACK: Does the hon. member thoroughly understood the conditions. refer to grazing areas~ They knew that the leases were for a 1\

Mr. FLANNERY: That land has which that lan'

:homestead farmer who can retain it for long as they pay it at any time during forty years, and it cannot be made avail­ the year, that· ought to be quite satis­ able to anybody else. He can use it, but factory. To compel them to pay in ad­ it is not of much value to him as an asset, ranee necessarily creates more work for and we consider that we might as well let the department, which is inundated with :him convert the whole area rather tltan applications for an extension of time in :have a remnant which is of no use to which to make their payments. After nnybody else cut off. That is the main r.JI, our great objective should be not the

amend it. Is it proposed that all con­ Captain DUNN (Mudgee) [4.23]: I ditional leaseholders should have the have never heard a more futile argu­ .duration of their rental period altered? ment. Just because this is something Captain DuKx: Would it hurt them that has always existed we ought never if that were done? to alter it. We are allegedly amending a Land Act to make conditions easier Mr. POLLACK: I do not sav it for settlers, but as soon as a suggestion would hurt them. " is put forward that will make them easier Mr. HoRSINGTOX: Do they actually it is thwarted. vay in advance? Mr. BALL: The hon. member knows Mr. POLLACK: Yes. that nothing has ever been done to cause hardship to settlers! Mr. HoRSING TOX: If the hon. member inquires at the Lands Department he Captain DUNN: I do not suggest it, will find that very many do not! but I suggest that it would be a good thing to bring about uniformity. 111:r. POLLACK: That is evidence of :Uir. BALL: This brings about unifor­ reasonable interpretation of the Act by mity! the Lands Department. When the hon. member for Mudgee was a Minister of Captain DUNN: Yes, but it does so the Crown he had an opportunity while with regard to conditional leases only. his Government was in power to amend If a man holds 600 acres conditional pur­ chase lease, and 1,800 acres conditional that particular provision. ·Let me ~ay that payment in advance of rent on con­ lease, the amount due on the conditional -ditional leases has been the law ever lease is fairly large, because of the area, since conditional leases were placed on and it would be a good thing to. allow the statute-book. 48 Vic. No. 18 was the him to pay that half-yearly; not half­ Act that brought them into being, and yearly on his conditional purchase lease it provided that the rent should be paid and annually on his conditional lease. A Jmnually in advance. During ·the pro­ thing is not necessarily sacrosanct be­ gress of the debate on the second reading cause it has always been in the Land we heard a good deal about the right of Act. I think the Minister would be well conversion, whether it should be as to advised to accept the amfmdment. the whole area or only as to part. There J\Ir. DAVIDSON (:Murray) [ 4.25] : It was no question as to whether the con­ is a peculiar attitude for a member of citional purchase lease, or the condi­ the Country party to adopt to support a tional lease which conversion would Ministerial amendment of this descrip­ bring about, should be any different from tion. Every country member is inun­ the conditional purchase lease and the dated with requests from settlers to go conditional lease which are now on the to the Minister and ask for an exten­ statute-book. sion of time for the payment of instal­ Captain Duxx.: It was impossible tu roents. go into every detail! .. Mr. PoLLACK: 1fr. POLLACK: Oh, of ~ourse it was. Mr. DAVIDSON: But if a thing is · The fact is that it was not mentioned bad there is no justification for making by the Minister originally. There was it worse. Neither the Minister nor any no necessity to mention it. It is only member of the Country party has given because an amendment is moved by the any reason for differentiating between Minister that the Opposition objects. The conditional purchase leases and condi­ onus is on the Opposition, if it wants tional leases, or for making the rent pay­ to change the general procedure regard· able half-yearly in one case and yearly ing payment of rent on conditional in the other. It is far more convenient leases, to show ample reason not only for for the man on the land to pay annually its being changed in connection with than to pay half-yearly. As everybody conversions, but also in connection with knows, the man on the land has his all conditional leases. good seasons, when he realises on his Ct·own Lands [20 FEB., 1930.] ( Amendm.ent) Bill. 3115

production. He is in a better pos1t10n total amount owing was £770,141. I to meet his obligations annually than admit that the Lands Department in­ baH-yearly. \Ve hear a lot about encour­ ,·ariably meets the settlers very reason­ aging men to stay on the land, but here ably. The department has agreed to is a p1·opoEal to make it more difficult. allow instalments to be paid at the end The Opposition has given the lllinister of a term instead of when they fall due, all the aRsistance possible in connection but the men who owe the money have to with this bill, and we do not want now pay interest on what they owe. If a to enter into a controversy. I think settler is compelled to go to the depart­ the Minister would be wise to adopt the ment and ask that his payments be amendment.· deferred for a year the department will :Mr. BALL [ 4.29]: This is such a small probably grant his request, but it will m3tter that it doe.3 not affeet the man on ndd interest to the amount which he has the land to any appreciable extt:nt. Thc're t:; pay. As the hon. member for Mudgee has been no demand for an alterati::m bas pointed out whilst a settler might be in the method of payment. The object is able to pay his rent half-yearly, he might siml}ly to have the payments falling due have difficulty in paying it a year in as they do to-day, and to make it plain adv'ance. It would be reasonable for when they are payable. My amendment the Minister to accept the amendment only simplifies the present procedure. I suggested by the hon. member for N amoi. appeal to hon. members to let it go; there Mr. WEARNE (Barwon) [4.30]: To are bigger and more important matters a certain extent I am in accord with the to deal with in the remainder of the bill. suggestion of the bon. member for Jl.ir. FLANNERY (Murrumbidgee) N amoi, for I admit there is a great deal [4.30]: If the amendment were adopted in his contention. As one who has gone the position would be quite plain. I through the mill and who knows where admit that the Department of Lands has the shoe pinches I can speak in a prac­ been lenient to settlers, but in allowing tical way of how the payment of rent leasehold~rs to postpone .payment of hits the man on the land. In connection their rent the department protects it­ with the payment of rent of these leases, self by adding interest to the amounts as well as of others, including settlement owing. If a man asks to have payment leases, it afton happens that a settler has of his rent postponed he is called upon had to find as much as £100, and he has to pay an additional amount. had to pay that amount in advance. Jvir. BALL: If he paid his rent half­ Captain Dt::-iX : And if he does not pay yenrly he would still have to pay, u·hat it wh~:m the amount falls due he has to was owing! pay interest as well! Mr. :FLANNERY: Of course he Mr. WEARNE: Yes; but the interest would, but payment would be easier would be a less amount than th~ bank for him if he were allowed to pay it interest. I know of no other occupaticn half-yearly, as he would have the use of besides that of the settler in connection baH his annual rent for half the year. with which a man would be called upon In the last annual report of the De­ to pay twelve months' rent in advance ]Jartment of Lands dealing with closer for the place he occupied. It may be settlement I find that there are contended that he gets his land on lib­ 6,468 farms in existence, on which pay­ eral terms. ·I admit that the Lands De­ ments have fallen due, and that in 3,952 partment is always lenient in its deal­ cases the settlers have satisfactorily met ings with the settlers; and if a man does their obligations. The amounts over­ not pay his Fent for two or even three . due at the end of the 3'ear were: Annual years he does not lose his land. It would instalments of principal and interest, be a long time before he lost it for non­ £695,347; interest on "postponed" in­ payment of rent. But if the land were stalments, £27,179; and payments in re­ mortgaged to a bank the interest would spect of funded interest, £47,615. The be paid on the 1st January by the bank, J 3116 Crown Lands (ASSEMBLY.' (Amendment) Bill. and the settler would thus pay six per cent. of the people on the land to months' rent for something he had not make their payments annually instead d had. He would pay on the 1st January, half-yearly. 1930, that which he would owe on the Mr. W. J. ScuLLY: The bon. memb.;r 31st December of the same year. It thinks it is better to pay £50 instead of would, therefore, be only fair to allow £25. .A man might find use for £25 in 61) him to pay hltlf-yearly. Then he would be course of six months l holding the land free for the first six Mr. KILPATRICK: The primary pro­ months and paying in advance for the ducer gets his returns annually. second six months. However, the amend­ Mr. W. J. ScuLLY : Not necessarily! ment only refers to small areas left over Mr. KILPATRICK: In ninty cases from conversion and therefore I cannot out of a hundred he does. Dairymen, support it. If it included all leases I of course, are on a different footing; would vote for it, but as it refers to small they get their returns 1i1onthly. "remnant" areas I shall vote with the lfr. FLANNERY: A man might sell she(~p Government. at different periods of the year I Mr. KILPATRICK (Wagga Wagga) Mr. KILPATRICK: I admit that, but [ 4.38] : I have listened carefully to the I do not know that it makes much differ­ debate, and it seems to me that the argu- . ence if the instalments are paid half­ ment put forward by hon. members is yearly instead of yearly. After all, it i-> to a great extent nothing less than split­ not a big matter, ·and is hardly worth ting straws. Most hon. members know arguing about. that the conditions set out in the amend­ lfr. FLANNERY: Why does not the lfin­ ment proposed by the Minister apply to ister accept the amendment? conditional purchase leases. In con­ :Mr. KILPATRICK: The J\finister nection with a conditional purchase the has been very generous. If the term settler pays his rent annually. remains at twelve months, I cannot see !fr. FLAKKERY: In advance-! that any great injury will be done to the producing interests. In any ease, if tho Mr. KILPATRICK: Yes, in advance. producer is unable to meet his payment.:; The Crown allows him two or three years to the department he has little trouble in which he need pay no rental at all, in getting an extension. Every time I after he has paid his first deposit. The wrote to the department asking it to give main point at issue is, however, is it an extension to one of my constituents better to pay half-yearly or yearly~ who was unable to pay his rent an ex­ Mr. W. J. ScuLLY: The instalments tension was readily granted, irrespective in respect of a conditional purchase of what Minister was in charge. lease have to be paid half-yearly, and in Question-That the words proposed respect· of a conditional lease annually. to be struck out (Mr. Ball's amendment) I want to make both payments half­ stand part of the clause-resolved in the yearly! negative. Mr. KILPATRICK: I do not know Amendment (by Mr. W. J. Scully) that that is worth wasting a great deal proposed: of time over. If a man is in difficultias That the amendment be amended in he has little trouble in getting the Lands paragraph (b) by striking out the word Department to give him an extension for "annually'' and inserting in lieu thereof the six months, and he has twelve months words "by half-yearly instalments." then. After all, it is only a small matter. Question-That the words proposed Mr. W. J. ScuLLY: It is easier to pay to be struck out stand part of the amend­ half the money than the whole of it! ment-put. The Committee divided: Mr. KILPATRICK: I do not agree Ayes, 42; noes, 38; majority, 4. with the hon. member. It is easier for AYES. the man who acquired the lease origin­ Anderson, D. 1\f. Bate,H.J. Arkins, .T. G. D. Bennett, W. ally, because he has only to find half tha Arthur, Dr. R. Best, E. C. amount. It is more convenient for UO Ball, R. T. Bruxn<:r, Lt.·Col. Cro·!L'n Lantis [20 .FEn., 1930.] (A.mendment) Bill. 3117

Butld,A. E. Martin, L. 0. (g) by omiliting paragraph (d) of the Buttenshaw, E. A. 2\css, J. T. same subsection and by inserting in Cameron, \V. l'ollack, A. J. lieu thereof the following paragraph:­ Carter, H. C. Reid, .A A. E. E. V. ( d) If in respect of an a pplicatiou Chaffey, Captain lloss, J. for ccnversion of a. settlement lease Drummond, D. H. Sanders, E. L. the applicant is dissatisfied with the Dunningham, J. :M. Shand, Major determination of the local land board Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. Tharby, H. V. C. as to the area which may be con· Foster, W. F. Tresidder, E. P. verted into a conditional purchase or Glasgow, C. F .. Vincent, R. S. additional conditional purchase, or Hedges, W. W. Walker, H. B. if in respect of an application for Henley, Sir Thomas Walmsley, B. C. conversion of either a settlement Jaques, H. V. Weame, W.E. lease or ·Crown lease the applicant Jarvie, Ivrajor Weaver, R. \V. D. is 'dissatisfied as to the capital value Kilpatrick, :M. thereof, he may within one month Lee, J. R. Tellers, after such determination withdraw Lloyd, Brigadier-Gen. M·arks, E. S. his application for conversion upon Main, H. Beid, Major payment of costs as assessed by the 1\0ES. local land board; Baddeley, J. l\L Lamaro, J. (h) (iv) by adding at the end of the same Booth, G. Lang, J. T. subsection the words: Burke, Frank Lazzarini, C. C. An application under this section Burke, Michael Lysaght, A. A. shall include the original settlement Butler, W. J. McDicken, H. J. lease or Crown lease as the case may Cahill, J. J. Olcle, B. C. be or anv additional settlement lease Clyne, D. 'O'Sullivan, M. or CroWI~ lease in virtue thereof held Com•ell, H. J. Quirk, J. by the upplicant at date of applica­ Connolly, P. Hatciiffe, W. J. tion, or where the applicant fo~ :on­ Davidson, :M.A. Scully, W. J.­ version does not hold the ongtnal Davies, W. Shannon, T. J. settlement lease or Crown lease, he Dnnn, Captain Smith, J. E. shall include in his application all Ely,W.T. Stanley, F. additional settlement leases or Crown Flannery, M. M. Stuart-Robertson, R. J. leases then held by him in virtue of Gosling, M. Tonge, A. such original holding. I-Ioad, K. 0. Tully, J. M. Tiorsingt.on, E. M. Amendments (by Mr. Ball) agreed to: Keegan, T. Tellers, That after the word "but," in paragraph Kelly, C. A. Cameron, R. (a), the words "subject to the provisions I\:night, H. McGirr, James of paragraph (b) of this subsection" be Question so resolved in the affirmative. inserted. Amendment negatived. That after paragraph (e) the following new paragraph be inserted :-(f) by insert­ Question-That the words proposed b ing in subparagraph ( ii ). of paragraph (b) be inserted (Mr. Ball's amendment) b~ of the same subsection after the word so inserted-resolved in the affirmative. "land" the words "whatever its area." That the words "one month," sub-para­ Amendment (by llfr. Ball) agreed to: graph (d.), paragraph (g) be .struck out That after the word "him," subpara­ and the words "three months" be inserted graph (d) (iv), the words "and which were in lieu thereof. acquired" be inserted. 'fhat in paragraph (h) (iv)" before the Clause as amended agreed to. words "any additional settlement lease" the Clause 3. The Principal Act is further word "or" be struck out and the word "and'' amended: inserted in lieu thereof. (a) by omitting £rom subsection one of That in paragraph (h) (iv) after the section one hundred and. eighty-four the word "him'' the following words be inserted words "in the manner and subjed to "and which were acqclired." the conditions following'' and by in­ Mr. DAVIDSON (Murray) [5.4]: I serting in lieu thereof the words "but am opposed to the clause on principle .so that the area of the conditional lease Bhall not exceed three times the because it gives power for the conver­ area of the conditional purchase; sion of the whole or any portion of a Crown lease. iW e have ,been told by hon. (e). by in;erting 'in subparagr;ph (b) (i) members representing country electo­ of the same subsection before the words rates that there are only 1,200 of these "exceed when improved as aforesaid" the word "substantially"; Crown leases and about 100 with areas in ~x~e_ss of g home ma'"intenance area. 3118 C1·own Lands [ASSEMBLY.] ( Amendrnent) Bill.

The official returns show that there are of large areas. The bill does everything· 4,191 Crown leases in force containing possible that lends itself to the aggrega­ over 6,000,000 acres. In the year 1929 tion of large areas. there were no fewer than 2'47 applicants Mr. KILPATRICK: Does the hon. mem­ for Crown leases. The area comprised ber agree with reappraisement on trans­ in those applications was 479,987 acres. fer? An additional area of 189,000 acres has Mr. DAVIDSON: I believe in allow­ since been classified for settlement under ing the Minister the right to reappraise, this form of tenure. We have been re­ but I do not say it should necessarily peatedly told by various Ministers for be done. If there is a competent Min­ Lands that there is very little Crown ister, who understands his department land to be made available throughout the and everything appertaining to it, Le State. If we dispose of Crown lands in should decide whether a reappraisement the manner proposed, and allow conver­ is necessary or not. To repeal that pro­ sion of the whole of a Crown lease vision would not be in the interests of whether it is a substantial home main­ the man on the land, but would amount tenance area or not, we shall have no to a censure on tke man in charge of Crown leases at all to be made available. the department. No sane Minister, if he knew a transfer was in order, and Wenting the aggregation and I intend to vote against it. ' (, '" ~; "' . OrownLands [20 FEi3., 1930.] (Amendment) Bill. 3119

'Mr. 13ALL [5.16] : The number of the capital invested by him being, per­ Crown leases now in force is 3,944. haps, £5,000. That is a district, too, in ll!r. DAVIDSON: The :Minister hns which the grass does not grow for nine missed some. He will find, i£ he looks months in the year. The hon. member through the department's report, thctt now says that 1,450 acres as a grazing there are another 247, making 4,191! proposition is a living area in a much . Mr. BAilL: The point is that the better part of the State. If his con­ average area is only 1,400 acres. It tention is correct, why should 750 acres must 'be kept in mind that these are be sufficient for a grazing area in a used as grazing areas, and I do not district which is one of the coldest in think any hon. member will say thr-t the State? The average size of these 1,400 acres is too much for a grazing holdings, as .stated by the Minster, is not area. If anything, we think it is on convincing and, in my opinion, each the small side. To oppose giving holders area should be considered on its merits. of 1,400 acres on an average the right The estate on Monaro which was pur­ to convert is simply ridiculous. chased by the Government will p_ot run :Mr. DAVIDSON: The :Minister's pred·"­ more than 500 or 600 sheep to a so-called' cessor, the hon. member for Barwon, living area. A settlement purchase hold- - told him last night there are over 100 ing is based on the running of about Crown leases that are substantially in 2,000 sheep. I agree with the Minister excess of a home maintenance area! that most areas are too small to he· Mr. BALL: The figures I am giving classed as Ji:ving areas, and their capital are the official figures of the department. value too high. But that is not so true The contention of the hon. member wiFJ of Crown leases made available since has just resumed his seat, that we ar8 1912, and ·supposed to be living areas. enabling these people to become large Changing circumstances have mad8· landholders in the future, is simply ridi-­ some of thel'n more than a living area. culous. That cannot happen. The ma­ llfr. WEARNE: There could not be a jority of these men hold land which is greater change in circumstances than less than a living area. The average si;;e the recent drop in the price of wool! of the Crown leases is about 1,450 acres. Captain DUNN: Yes, and in the fali Captain DUNN (Mudgee) [5.21]: in the value of stock. •The drop in the Wbilst I believe that each Crown lease price of sheep is more serious than the ought to be dealt with on its merits, fall in the price of wool. That has been there is no merit in the J\iinister say­ a tremendous blow to the men on the ing that the average siz:e of these leases land. As the result of that there is some· is 1,450 acres. His statement might justification for the 1finister proposing prove that many settlers have less than to allow of the converting of areas in a living area. I would say that prob­ excess of living areas, but we know that ably 20 per cent. of these Crown leases, the circumstances are not permanent,. if their average size is only 1,450 acres, and those men will still hold their areas. are in excess of living areas to-day. This will not give them a greater area. The average size, however, has really They will still run as many sheepe no bearing on the question as to whether whether they convert or not. 'When they the lessee should be allowed to convert. took them up they were satisfied to hold One man might have 5,000 acres, while them as .Crown leases, but owing to another man might hold only ·250 acres; chang-ed circumstances all kinds of so that the average is no guide as to leases were being converted, and they,. the rights of conversion. I would re­ too, clamoured for the right of conver­ mind hon. members that only last session sion. the Government resumed an estate in the lfr. KILPATRICK: They have had the :Monaro district at £4 lOs. per acre, where right of conversion for some years! 700 acres was considered to be a grazing Captain DUNN: I know that. They area. And there a man has to fence his were satisfied to take up Crown lease,;· Jand, build a home and buy his stock, at a cheap rental, and those leases may- ~3120 Crown Lands (ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

be more valuable to them than a con­ ments of the hon. member for lvfudgee. verted area. I am satisfied with regan! It is not so much a matter of acreas a.:l to the position of settlement leases under the man. this clause, but all the same it is very Captain DuNN: I did not talk about generom. Each Crown lease should ba acres! taken on its merits. l\fany of the 4,000 Crmvn lessees must haTe less than a }.fr. CARTER: The hon. member 1iving area. The a.-erage area is 1,500 talked about a living area. Two men acres but in many cases_ it must be less. can be settled on two similar areas and -Whilst we may be oYer-generous to some the one makes a success of settlement . who haYe substantially more than a liv­ whilst the other does not. The one ing area we may be neglecting the poor b~comes successful because he is a worker de>ils who haYe less than a living area. in the true sense of the word. The other Our duty is to nurse the men on small man does not become a success because areas rather than to give special privi~ he does not use his head and make the leges to men with fairly decent areas. be:'t use of the land, yet the hon. mem­ ber for Mudgee would Gay that that man Ur. IIonsrxGTO~: Greasing the fatted had not a living area. The hon. mem­ sow! ber poses as the friend of the 90 per Captain Dt::X:N: I · would not say cent. and says that the Government is that. But \ve are being over-generous. greasing the fatted pig by helping the We are not adding to settlement by be­ 10 per cent. ing over-generous to those who already Captain DuNN : The hon. member haYe big areas. We should be decent should not be mean. That remark was to the unfortunate fe1lows who have leflS made by way of interjection by another than a living area. I do not know that member of the Opposition, and I said it is worth while fighting over this I did not agree with him! -clause, because there is not much merit in it. The :Minister is not giving 90 per Mr. CARTER: The remark was made cent. of the Crown lessees anything they by a member of the Opposition. The -could not g<>t under the existing law, !JOn. member for Mudgee accused tho ·but 10 per cent. are to get something Government and its supporters of mak­ -they could not get under the existing ing political capital out of tzis bill. Jaw. Is· it worth while coddling and That is untrue, because it is our desire nursing that 10 per cent. at the expense to help the unfortunate men who have been struggling and who have not been -of the others~ able to capitalise the land they have. Ur. CARTER: Why sacrifice the 90 per If those men are given the right of con­ ·cent. for the 10 per cent.? version it will mean a great deal to Captain DUNN: \Ye are not sacrific­ them and will ease the financial position ':ing the 90 per cent. It is useless for the they find themselves in to-day. 1 have Government to try to fool the people by in mind an area of '78 acres of gravelly -telling them that it is giving something ridge which nobody would take up for to every Crown lessee. It is giving some­ years. Eventually that area was taken thing to 10 per cent. of the Crown lessees up, and the man who took it up told who already have more than a living me that he had 28 acres more than he .area. It is no use the Government telling could handle. As I said, similar areas the Crown lessee that it is going to can be given to two men and the one md~e him a rich' man in the future. makes a success of his undertakin~~ -The Government should tell the public whilst the other does not. One man i~ that all it is doing is giving the man a producer and a worker, but because he who has well over a living area some­ improves his land arid makes the most thing he has a right to now. of it members of the Opposition say h~ Nr. CARTER (Liverpool Plains) is getting too much. It should be oru {5.35]: I am unable to f()llow {!le argu · aim to help every settler irrespective of ·Or own Lands [20 FEB., 1930.] ( A:mendment) Bill. 3121.

the area he holds, because in one locality tain land in excess of a living area. But - a man might need three or four times we must recollect that when that land as much land as he needs in another. was made available for settlement it Mr. TULLY (Goulburn) [5.38]: It is was upon the advice of the district sur­ apparent that the :Minister intends to veyor in the locality in which it was adhere to his proposal for the conversion situated. In no case would these hold~ of Crown leases irrespective of the home­ ings be equivalent to two living areas, maintenance limitation. Under the vari­ although I acknowledge that they may ous tenures provided for in the Crown be substantially in excess of a homo Lands Act it is quite possible for a man maintenance area. I have no doubt that to hold a homestead farm and a consid­ there are cases in which men hold 100 erable area of Crown leases. The Min­ or 200 acres in excess of what local resi .. ister said that approximately 4,000 dents may regnrd as a living area. But Crown leases have been taken up in the that is not a material consideration. All State and that the average area was that the amendment will do is to giv(~ about 1,400 acres. When the J\finister to every Crown leaseholder the right to said that he was trying to justify this convert his lease. clause. Although the average area might Mr. FLA::\"C\ERY: Irrespective of homo be 1,400 acres a fair proportion of the maintennnce requirements? holders of Crown leases have consider­ ably more than a living area. Twelve Mr. KILPATRICK: That was co:1· or fifteen months ago, when I was in the sidered when the land was originally_ set . Nyngan district, I viO?ited the Honey­ apart for settlement . bungle estate which was made available J\{r. W. J. ScuLLY: This measure has as Crown leases. That estate was sub­ only been introduced to give the right divided into areas of from 7,000 to 10,000 of conversion to men who hold areas con­ acres, and the Minister now proposes to siderably in excess of a home mainten­ give men holding from 7,000 to 10,000 ance area! acres the right to convert, irrespective of J\1:r. KILPATRICK: I have already whether they have a home-maintenance mentioned that these Crown lands were area or not. Suppose that the area in made available for ·settlement upon the question was regarded as a fair home advice of the district surveyor in the maintenance area. To-day there is a district in which the land was situated. proposal to build a new Tailway fTom Consequently, although a lease may com­ Nyngan to Condobolin. If that line is prise land in excess of what is considered constTucted what now constitutes a home a living area it cannot by any stretch of maintenance area will probably TepTe­ the imagination be equal to two living sent two home maintenance areas within areas. Some hon. members appear to a few years. Yet under this clause it is forcret that it is open to any Crown lease­ proposed to give the lessee the right to holder to apply for the conversion of convert the whole of his holding, irre­ his lease into different types. of holdings. spective of whether it is equivalent to Under the Act he has a choice of tenure. two home maintenance areas. Whilst As a matter of fact, a Crown lease is one tne Opposition is prepared to wipe away of the best tenures. restrictions with a view to enabling a settler to secure all the financial assist­ 1Ir. FLANNERY: Where is the necessity ance possible, we insist that he must for the amendment? not be the holder of more than a fair J\1:r. .KILPATRICK: The necessity home maintenance area. which exists is exactly the necessity Mr. KILPATRICK (Wagga Wagga)· which existed under a settlement lease. [ 5.43] : I think I may be able to shorten Originally when a man applied to con­ the discussion if I explain the position vert a living area in connection with a in regard to settlement leases. That type settlement lease he was compelled by the of holding must contain £3,000 worth of land board to accept £3,000 worth of land. land. PTobably some of these leases con- Subsequently Parliament dealt with the 9M 3122 Ctown Lands . [ASSE 1\iBLY. J (A. mendment} Bill. matter under clause 188A-the clause to amendment. Probably the department which frequent reference was made last admits its original mistake and is there~ night. fore agreeing to conversion of a home· Mr. W. J. SCULLY (Namoi) [5.50]: mai11tio'fiance area. The inc-orporation of I am opposed to the clause. We are told the Wol'ds in the bill proves that the de­ that thetE~ are appro~imately 4,000 of partment does recognise that there are these Crown lease3 and accordi11g to the numbers of these improvement leases, 90 Minister they average 1;400 acres. I£ irer cent., that ·do not e-xceed a home main· tl1at is tight there is no necessity far tena:nce area. If that is so, no injustice the clause, because at least 90 pe1· cent. can. be done to more than 10 pE!r cent. of the leases would not be horne main· o£ the lessees. tenance areas. 'What we are concerned It is a bad principle to admit that in about, however, is the other 10 per Gent. some cases thel·e are two or three home that su b!:ltantia1ly exceed home mainten· maintemincE! areas in a Grown lease and ancE! areas. It is all very well for the then l!Uow the holder to convert the hen. member fO'r Wagga Wagga to say whole. tn my e-lectorate a certain area: that when the leases were made available was made available which was more than the district surveyor took care that each double a home maintE!nance area. Tlre should represent only a hornet mainten­ digtrict snt"veyor at that time advised ance area .. that it was only suitable ·for one home }.fr. KILPATRICK: Or thereabout3! maintenance area. Now it is admitted: b-y those who know the country that it Mr. W. J. SCULLY: Very well. :But contains two home maintenance areas. in one case when an owner asked fm the That is th() sort of thi:tJ.g we want to­ right of conversion the district surveyor prevent, and in preventing it we do no­ said that when he made the land avail­ injury to anyone, because 90 per cent. able he considered that it did not sYb· o£ the holders are protected. Under this· stantially exceed a home maintenance bill there will be given to men who pos­ area, but it subsequently transpired that se2s more than a home maintenance area it did, and he successfully opposed the more than they are entitled to. At pre­ conversion of the whole of the land as a sent decision rests with the local land· home maintenance area. That shows board, and iio authority is better fitted that district surveyors do not always bear to arrive at a decision. Their decisions. in mind the possibility of conversion, are based on local knowledge and c0m-­ and there are at least 10 per cent. of mon se11se, and I would back them leases that substantially exceed a home against the decisiohS of the Land Appeal maintenance area. Some would practic­ Court. 1t would be far better for New ally make two such areas. 'l'he hon. South Wales if many decisions of local member for Mudgee and the hon. mem­ land boards had not been sE!t aside by ber for Liverpool Pl~tins have quoted the Land Appeal Coutt, whose decisions. cases of men who are making a living on are often arrived at on legal technicali­ what; when the land was taken up, were ties. not considered to be living areas. But that is beside the· question. We are not M;r. CARTER: Who gives evidence arguing upon what constitutes a home before the Land Appeal Court as to what maintenance area. We are arguing, in constitutes lit living area~ view of the basic principle of the clause, Mi·. W. J. SCULLY: The tenants and that as in many instances throughout the the district surveyor. State settlement leases exceed a home Mr. CARTER: Is the tenant likely t() maintenance area, it would be dangerous o;-m·state what is a living area? to incorporate this clause in the bill. n is admitted that there are a number of lfr. W. J. SCULLY: No. Crown leases that do exceed a home Jl.fr. CARTER: The district surveyor is: mainte·nance area; otherwise the Min­ the inilfi who in the first place appor­ ister would not have submitted his tions the land into living areas! Transport Bill. [20 FEB., 1()30.] Transport BilL 31~3

Mr. IV. J. SCDLT.Y: The district ance of passengers, either in the metro­ sun·e~·or does his work fro:in the theo­ politan area or at N e'vcastlr, nor i~ retical point of view. There ·is the there any satisfactory machinery in exis · nssessor who sa:.;-3 what he thinks 1s a tence for dealing with the various diffi­ living are,1. On the other hand there is cultiea that arise in the regulation and the local knowledge of the local land control of tl;a:ffic genemlly. An alto­ board, the members of whom live in the g-ether unnecessary load has been place(l locality and have practical knowledge of upon the shouJders of the police, by ask­ the lund they are dealing with. ing them to carry out duties which are I am opposed to the amendment to be clearly outside the scope of ordinary made by this clause, because it is a de­ police work. No provision has been parture from a principle we have made for the extra cost of proYiding the fought to ma,intain for the last b·ent;v police supervision which is necessary on years. account of the increase in traffic due [The Te1nporary Chairman (Mr. Jackson) to the advent of the motor, nor is there left the chai1· at 6.2 p.m. The Cornrnittee sufficient existing legislation to deal with rcs1tmcd at 7.30 p.1n.] the transport positioil. as it has de­ Progress reported. veloped owing to the advent of this nevv and fast moving form of transport. TRANSPORT BILL. Take the transport services in the SECOND READIKG. metropolitan area and in Newcastle to­ day. The total capital expen:dit\}re on the Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER (Tenteriield), tramway systems at the 30th June, 1929, :Minister for Local Government [7.35], was £11,7 43,189, which is represented. by moved: State loan indebtedness upon which in­ That this bill be now read a s0eond time. terest has to be paid and contributions He said: vVhen moving for leave to in­ made under the Commonwealth I~oan troduce this bill I dealt with its general Agreement. The num·ber of em­ scope and the machinery it was propose<;! ployees engaged in tramway opera­ to set up under it. In moving the tions is 11,000. The total revenue second reading I propose first to outline collected by the tramways last year the position to be dealt with and then was just on £4,500,000, and the the brand principles upon which the bill estimated number of passengers carried is framed. I.ater I shall deal with the was 333,476,049. The nature of the ser­ various parts and divisions of the meas­ vice which the tramways are called ure in ·their order. I crave the indul­ upon to render in moving the publi,~ gence of the House, as this is a very during the morning and evening peal~ lengthy measure and inyolves a great hours is illustrated by the fact many different principles~ It is my that whereas approximately 500 earnest desire to give hon. members as cars are sufficient for normal require­ much information as I can. I shall con­ ments, over 1,300 cars have to be brought dense my remarks, as far as they can be into use during the peak hours, with the. condensed upon a measure of this magJ.li­ attendant difficulties and expense asso­ tude, but I intend to include all matters ciated with the maintenance of the or­ which I think have a direct bearing on ganisation necessary to keep 900 odd the problem confronting the State at the cars ready for use. · present time, and the! methods by ·,vhich }(r. JAQUES: And that is not ahYays. we are attempting to solve it. sufficient! The explanatory memorandum accom­ Lt.-Colonel BRU'XNER: Quite so. pan;ying tlw ·bill sets out concisely what The large s1ze tram-car carrie-.,; it is propo2ed to do. Hon. rr.embers know eighty passengers seated ·as com~ that at present there is no effective pared with thirty-two passengers ·car­ means of bringing about any co-ordina­ ried by the average large-sized bus, and tion between the tramways and the ether fifty-one by the latest type doublc­ forms of transport in use for the convey- decl<:er bus introduced m Sydney~, . Transport Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Tmnspor·t Bill.

The tram\Yays are required to comply ing the police not only to carry out the with the obligations of a general trans­ administration of the Metropolitan port system, including the moving of Traffic Act, but to act as advisers to big concourses of people on special oc­ the Minister as to. what kind of trans­ casions, such as the Royal Agricultural port should be allowed to ply .over a Show an.d the Randwick races, without particular route. Hon. members will unduly encroaching upon the normal agree that that is a function which the services. That necessitates the main­ police should not be asked to undertake. tenance of a permanent relief staff. More­ It is a function which the police in over, we ask the tramways to give con­ other cities in the world are not asked cessions in respect of workmen's fares to carry out. The police have acted as and in respect of tlie transport of school the reporting authority and have made children and to give privileges to their recommendations to the J\finister. :Min­ employees which are not given by pri­ isters come and go and each successi-re vately-run concerns. For many years we J\finistel' has adopted a different polic;r. have asked the tramways to run non­ One Minister perhaps has been lenient pnying lines in order to develop out­ so far as applications for bus routes are lying suburbs and to promote new set­ concerned, whilst others have not been tlement in and about the cities of Sydney so lenient, but the one outstanding fea­ ~wd Newcastle. ln the metropolitan area ture is that there has been no definite alone at the present time there are and continuous policy which would ulti­ a pproximatcly 49·2 omnibuses in service mately produce a co-ordinated transport and approximately 100 in reserve for re­ system. Hon. members must realise that placement purposes. The value of it is impossible to secure continuity of and equipment at the 30th June, 1929, policy whilst we have that ever con­ was assessed by the Government Statis­ stant changing. tici:m on returns furnished by the bus­ The police in their desire to stop Elen at £568,727, and the total revenue some of the undesirable practices collected during the year was approxi­ ·which result from competition be­ mately £1,500,000. It was estimated that tween different bus services have re­ the buses last year canied 89,845,000 frained from permitting two proprietors IXtssengers. to operate over the same route. The For the determination of bus routes proprietors have therefore, practically there has been no effective machinery in enjoyed a monopoly, not because they the past. The police, who have acted for were entitled to it, but because the police the llfinister administering the Metro­ know from experience that if they politan Traffic Act in licensing vehicles, allow two or three different competitors have been mainly concerned as to the to operate over the same route the f>afety of the public, and it would be safety of the public is imperilled on altogether unreasonable to suppose that account of the objectionable features the police had undertaken the responsi­ arising from the racing of rival pro­ bility of developing a transport syste~ prietors for passengers. Because Minis­ of any kind. J\fany times since I have ters have acted upon the advice of been administering the Jlfetropolitan the traffic authorities and have '!'e­ Traffic Act reports by the police adverse frained from allowing competitive bus to the application of bus proprietors for services upon different routes, those bus the right to r·un over some particular proprietors who hold a license to run route ha1e been very strongly criticised over these routes have endeavoured to by the applicants. In some instances make . it appear that they actually they have accused the police of undue have been given and possess a pion­ bias or undue favouritism to some par­ eering right or monopoly. To such an ticular form of transport or some person, extent is this view held by them, that but I am happy to say that I have found they strongly object to any other bus no evidence to substantiate such a charge. proprietor invading their particular All this shows that we have been ask- areas. They have attempted to build up Transport BilL [20 FEB., 1930.] Transport Bill. 3125

a goodwill and to establish a definite title also touches the position in Europe, with to the particular routes in which they are particular reference to arrangements that interested, when as a matter of fact, they have recently been completed in Berlin. have never held any such title. The The latest developments in transport advertisement published by them in the and traffic control in the United Str;tcs press this morning proves unmistakably of America are dealt with in a 1i1ost co:ll1- that the running of buses at the present prchensive manner. The references to time must be a very lucrative undertak­ the activities c£ the Interstate Commerce ing, because persons who can afford a Commission and the Public Utility Com­ full column advertisement in every daily missions in the control of transport, and newspaper in this city are certainly not to the most recent efforts for the co-ordi­ suffering from the depression that is so nation of rail and motor transportation, acutely affecting most of us. 1lH~ disclose information which has not pre­ statement made in that advertisement viously been put in the form of an offi­ that this bill will deny the public a choice cial report for the guidance of :Ministers in their mode of transport is absolutely or of this House. In every instance the untrue. What the bill does is to make it problem is discussed with particular re­ perfectly certain that the public will be gard to our own position, not as it ex­ giYen a choice in the form of transport isted in 1926, but as it exists to-day. they will use. They may travel by tram, The problem with which we are co:1· by bus, or by any other form of transport cm·ned is one of administration. It iF­ that they desire. But the measure does not a ouestion of what a policeman upon. not compel the people of this State to point .duty should do nor what tlte limit their travelling in buses to those engineer might desire to ascertain con­ run by the few bus proprietors who are cerning construction, but general _ques­ in the happy position of QI]Jerating routes tions of administration that are at rssue, at the present time. and the Government selected from th~ The bill proposes to set up trusts which public service an experienced and capa_ble will be representative of the travelling administratiYe officer for the colJeCtlC·'l public and not merely of a small section of data of that kind. J\fr. Maddocks w:~:l of ovmers anxious to make close preserves appointed- secretary o£ the Police De- · of the public streets where they them­ partment by a Iahour Government, and selves are at present running motor for sixteen years he has been closely omnibuses. In the course of my remarks identified with the traf-rlc administratiorL 1 propose to refer to a number of state­ That he has done valuable work no un­ ments contained in Mr. Maddocks' report biassed person who reads his report will which is now in the h:mch of hon. mem­ deny, and I deprecate these personalities bers. I regret very much that upon the and the attempt to involve difficult ad­ motion for "]eave to introduce the bill ministrative questions in acrimonious one hon. member opposite thought it discussions concerning oft1cers. We have nece~.ary to suggest that this valuable a big problem before us, and it is with report merely contained references that that problem a1one that we have to denl. were previously available when, as a mat­ To the extent to which our ofllcers as­ ter of fact, it is a world-wide survey not sist us in the consideration of these only of transport administration, but also matters they are entitled to our ar,pre­ of traffic administration and control, as ciation and fmpport. . it exists to-day. The majority of the The first question I propose to disc-uss authorities consulted were men who had is the separation of the tramways from thE! never previously been seen by our offi­ railways. n is unnecessary to traverse in cers upon administrative questions of detail ground already exhaustively coverml the kind. in the report. It will suffice to say that The reDort discusses the position as it· in no important centre to-day is a local actually ~xists to-day in such citie,s as transport problem being handled m part , Birmingham, Manchester, Glas­ of a State-wide organisation. It is not gow, and in Great Britain generally. It merely the running of the tramways 3126 Transport Bill. (ASSEMBLY._) :J'raHsp01:t Bill. th~m£.elves that requires local treatment, control of the railways and tramways. Both but the co-ordination of the tramway the engineering and traffic technique are special to each class of work, and only staffs 13vstem with the other forms of local of long experience and training can do the t~ansportation and the working out of work effectively and produce the best re­ intricate and costly measures for traffic sults. relief. During the discussion upon the He then quoted the opinion of Sir first reading of the bill hon. members Thomas Tait, at one time chairman of opposite, and notably the hon. member the Victorian Railway Commissioners, for Murrumbidgee, criticised the re­ who said: moval of the from railway control. Although there are reasons for and He stated that the Fay-Raven Commis­ against, I have arrived at the conclusion, sion, which inquired into the railway after careful consideration, that it is not desirable for the tramways to be managed and tra~way manage~ent ·of this State by the Victorian Railw.ays Commissioners. some ~'ears ago, did not recommend this I think that the tramways are essentially seYerance of control. As a matter of local undertakings. They a1·e run on the fact that Commission recommended the pubEc streets, and are not associated closely appointment of a separate tramway com­ with tile requirements of the general body of taxpayers in this State. missioner at a salary of £3,000 a year. The fears that were >oiced 'hy the Com­ And then llfr. Cameroa stated: mission on the side of economy in the The two sen·iees cater for dissimilar 'l'l'ants-tmtl).w,ays for the short distanCe pas­ ewnt of the separation of the tramways sengers, and the railways for the long dis­ from the railways, referred only to the tance. The concessions in the nature of supply of power and the rendering of monthly and weekly ticket-s give the rail­ reciprocal services. In the proposals for ways· a tremendous advantage over the tram­ ways, and these conditions, and the higher the separation of the tramways from speeds of the service, effectively protect it the railways under this bill, however, from serious competition by the trams. The these two matters haYe been adequately Tramway Board's traffic officers are in close dealt with, and little or no additional touch witll t!te traffic officers of the Railway Department. In any cal!e of rail or tram cost will follow the separation. The stoppages, arrangements are made to meet existing arrangements with regard to the convenience of the people during such the supply of electricity will continue, stoppages. The times of first and last cars as will also those for the reRdering of and trains are dit~cussed, and are arranged as far as praeti£.able to conneet. redpr~wal services. I do not thiuk there could be much closer Reference was also made by an hon. co-operation in this matter than exists to­ member to evidence given before a day. Commission held in Victoria some In my opinion, the solution of our trans­ time back with regard to the ques­ port problem is to be foul).d in co-ot·dination tion of local transport arrangements. of all forms of transport services. As I He quoted the evidence given by Mr. see it, co-ordination does not imply that all Clapp, the Victorian Railway Com­ tJ:ansport should be under one management. But it does meim the harmonious working missioner, bnt he did not quote all the . together of all transport agencies for the evidence, and before this House accepts benntrol is cut up into numbedes.s staffs. }{r, STANLEY: Ha,s .an estimate bee!l I think that any hon. member will wn­ receive

particular work, dissociating it alto­ ance. So far as Sydney and Newcastle gether from the muliiitude of other de­ are concerned, there is unquestionably a partments that are engaged in a State­ place for the tram and a place for the 'tlide business, will not lead to reduced bus. ~hat is needed is a comprehensive ~osts and greater efficiency, so far as form of control and regulation, not only the tramway administration is con­ to manage the present transport system, -cerned. As a matter of fact, the greater but to develop it. We are not going to part of the tramway management to-day stand where we are; we must expand and is entirely dissociated from the railway develop, and that must be done accord­ operations in the more important phases. ing to some system and not according The traffic section, the permanent way to the haphazard will of 1.1:inisters who section, andthe Randwick workshops are may be in charge from time to time. to-day altogether separate from railway We have been led to believe that the bus activities, and they can be transferred is replacing the tram and other means practically as they are at the pl·esent of conveyance in the big cities of the old moment. As I said before, no other city country, Europe, and particularly in of the size of Sydney is trying to do what America. America is the home of the we are doing; that is, to run a purely motor vehicle. There are 24,000,000 regis­ local transport system under the manage­ tered motor vehicles in Ameri,ca; that is; ment that is conducting a State-wide one to eveTy five persons. Hon. members operation. We have evidence that in will think that in a country so rich in every other country, in every other State motor vehicles the bus would- be pro­ of Australia, ·and also in New Zealand, minent in connection with metropolitan as soon as the local trans'[JOrt system was transport. The figures supplied by the set up under its own or co-ordinating National l.fotor-Bus Division of the control there was very soon a return to a American Automobile Association show paying condition and more efficient ser­ the percentage of total revenue passen­ vice to the public. gers carried in the large metropolitan I now want to deal with the tram and areas. In New York 2.86 per cent. of the bus, a question upon which we have the revenue passengers are carried by heard a great many arguments and about mot~r-

controls the tramway system in Detroit, We hear of the scrapping o£ tramway and that system was extended to the systems in other places, but while it. Ford works, and they now have an is known that certain adjustments have elaborate system of tramways which pick taken place it is safe to say that in no up· and set down the many thousands of important city in the world of the size employees at the Ford works. of Sydney has a tramway system lbeeu In every other big city of the world, scrapped. In a recent statement made the peak-hour traffic is still- ·being carried by the Right Honourable Lord Ashfield, by the trams. What is taking the placE Chairman of the Board of Underground of the trams in carrying the peak-hour Electric Railways of London, and of the traffic are the underground or rapid London General Omnibus Company there transit systems which are in operation in is the following: many of the big cities of the world, and Underground railways, trams and buses are not of the same economic value. Eaclt which are gradually being developed here. plays an essential part in a complete and An HoN. :MEMBER: Very gradually! effective system of transport. Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: It is very At a general meeting o£ the London and questionable whether this country can Suburban Traction Company some little stand going underground, because no time back Lord Ashfield stated: other city has gone underground so far The actual contribution made by the and made it pay. tramways to the carriage of London's traf­ fic is still so material that no other form :Mr. DAVIES: What about London? of transport could lightly take it up if for any reason the tramways were to cease Lt.-Colonel BRUX:NIER: Take the operation. We must recognise, he said, that position in London, a city which is so the tramways arc an indispensable part of \·cry often quoted. The London Gen­ any complete system of transport that can eral Omnibus Company, some of the be contemplated in Greater London for many years to come. The crux of our prob­ tramways, and the whole of the under­ lem is that the people are heedlessly ac­ ground system, are run by a combined quiescing in a competition upon the streets. group of companies; and in that part which must, unless checked, ultimately pre­ of London which is served exclusively judice them. It fails to I'ealise the value· of the tramways, and that without the by buses hon. members will find that tramways, comfo1-t and convenience would underneath is the great underground ·be seriously impaired. system of London, although the buses The Traffic Advisory Committee of }~on­ provide the whole of the surface trans­ don is unanimously of opinion that the port in the proper and tramway services are essential to satis­ always have done so. Hon. members factory passenger movement in th'e Me­ who say that the buses have taken the tropolis. place of trams in London should realise that trams never ran in that portion flf Sir Henry Maybury, traffic consult­ I.)ondon where the buses are running ant .of London and one of the best to-day. The underground system and known traffic authorities in the world, tl'c tramways are carrying the great expressed the opinion that it was­ peak-hour traffic. We find that these unthinkable that the splendid service given. companies which control the three dif­ to the multitude by the London County Council tramways should cease. The omni­ ferent kind.s of bus has a place and a very large one in have made it very clear to the transport the future and so has every other form authorities that they cannot extend their of transport now available to us, but it is· underground operations unless some essential that all services shall be made. mutually eomplementary, and he pointed. restriction is placed on the uncontrolled particularly to the wasteful competition_ competition of the buses above. Recently, and duplieation of service most heavily felt the only curtailment that has taken place during the slack hours of the day. has been in a number of streets that The chairman of the Berlin Transporta­ can be used for bus trafric in London. tion Board, :Mr. Reuter, who tecently 3130 Tran.sport Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Transport Bill.

-returned from an inspection of trans­ members should ask themselves whether port systems in the United States is tho~e gentlemen are publishing those reported as having 3132 Transpo1't Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Tmnsport Bill.

transport system. To say that is State trust them to play fair in the publi(! control is to make a statement which is interest he is condemning a class of men not correct. No one would say that the who are rend~ring a great public ser­ Water and Sewerage Board is a State­ vice. controlled concern, yet this trust con­ Mr. LAzzARINI: It is possible to have forms very clos8ly in its constitution to on the trust representatives of local gov­ the authority we have set up to control erning bodies who know nothing about our great service of water supply and transport! sewerage. It has been •suggested that the trusts should be so enlarged as to Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The first ap­ embrace representatives of every interest pointments will be made by the Govern­ affected. The Commercial Motor Users' ment. Association modestly asks for three repre­ Mr. ToxaE: That is where the catch sentatives. If that is conceded, why not comes in! give the 111:otor Traders' Association Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: There is no three representatives also? Why not catch in it. The hon. member for .Mar­ give the N.R.M.A., the bus publicity rickville has had experience of the ad­ section, and the Master Carriers' Asso­ ministration of the Metropolitan Traffic ciation three representatives each? It Act and the objection he has raised is was never intended that this trust one' reason why the appointments will should be composed of interested per,sons. be made by the Government in the first It is to be composed of men who are re­ instance. The administration of this presentatives of the public, and who will measure will not be very 'vell understood run the transport system in the interests at the beginning. The Government is of the public. interested in the matter because at the lfr. FosTER: But they will be domin­ outset the cost of setting up the trans­ ated by the trams; you cannot get away port trust will haYe to be borne by the from that State, and the interest will have to be Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: If the hon. paid by the State until such time as the member, who has had long municipal trusts are able to stand on their own experience, were placed on the trust as a feet. Therefore, it is only right that the representative, does he say that he would first trusts should be constituted without be guided by prejudice in favour of their members having to run the gaunt­ some particular form of transport, or let of an election, which would be fought would he work in the public interest? not on the merits of the candidates but I ask hon. members who say that these along the 1ines set out in propaganda trusts will carry on their administration which is being engaged in at the present in favour of a particular branch of trans­ time. When the system is understood port, are they prepared to accuse every by the public it will elect men who will man who goes into municipal life of look after the public interest irrespec­ being guided not by the public interest, tive of the interests of the buses, the but by personal prejudice? . I have been trams, or anything else. I ·want him. administering the Local Government members to understand that the Govern­ Act for two and a half years, and I am ment aims at setting up a body which prepared to say that 95 per cent. of the will not merely occupy the position of an men who are giving their services to umpire to decide contentious questions the local governing bodies of this State between rival operators, but which will are doing so in the public interest. provide municipal representation having Mr. SAXDERS: They are not charged full power within its district for the with the management of an asset worth development and control of an import­ about £11,000,000! ant public utility, and which will have Lt.-Coloncl BHUXNER: The local the fulle3t sense of responsibility in re­ governing bodies are managing c'ec::tl"ic­ snect of all its decisions. The trusts ' ity undertakings aud water supplies, an·l ,;ill not actually carry out the technical if the hon. member is not prepared to management. The trams will be under TranspoTt Bill. [20 FEB., 1930.] Transport Bill. 3133 a separate management and the manage­ . Mr. LAzzARINI: The Minister said tha-:­ ment of the buses run by the trusts will the trusts would have power to call upon be under their management. The policy private management in connection with b£ co-o~·dination and control in the pub­ the whole or any part of the transport lic interest will be in the hands of the services. Does that mean that the tram­ trusts. If hon. members want an ex­ ways could be handed over to private ample of the success which has followed management? the semi -municipal control of transport Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The trusts they have only to look to Great Britain, could employ private management to to America, to the Continent of Europe, control the tramways if they so desired. to the city of Adelaide, and to the city I now come to that portion of the of Auckland. In all of those places they bill which deals with existing omnibus have adopted the system of control which services. Under the law as it stands at is provided for in this bill. The pro­ present those services have no franchise posed Road Transport Bill which is to or monopoly of any kind unde1· th~ be introduced in England has for its Metropolitan Traffic Act. A bus pro­ ~bject the establishment of semi-muni­ prietor has to license each bus for a cipal bodies to control passenger trans­ period of twelve months. He does not port in the areas which will be under get a license for a fleet of bu::es. The their administration. route over which he operates is pro­ It has been said that this measure is claimed. At the end of the twelve designed to stifle and kill private enter­ months fur 'IYhich the license is granted prise. I would draw the attention of or at any time dming the course of that l1on. members to the fact that this bill period his license can be cancelled and empowers the trusts to take advantage his route discontinued. .of private enterprise and private man­ :Mr. FoSTER: ·what would our consti­ ngement wherever they deem it expedient tutents say to that? to do ·so, provided, of course, that that Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Never mind management is carried out in accordance what they say. All I am concerned about ·with the policy of the trusts and not in is the public interest. As a matter of oQpposition to it. · Clause 13 of the bill fact, outside the nrea covered by the -even goes so far as to give the trust Metropolitan Traffic Act, and in X ow­ power to employ private management in castle J!articularly, the councils have i:he whole or any part of the transport licensed, delicensed, and diverted bus system. If they choose they can get a routes to their hearts' content, and no private company to run transport ser­ compensation has been paid to the bus vices for them .. Yet the gentlemen who proprietors. describe themselves as the Bus Publicity J\fr. LAzzAmxr: Does the hon. gentle­ Committee-a band of philanthropists­ man say that the bus proprietors have suggests that this bill is designed to no right to the routes they are operat­ bll private enterprise. ing? J\fr. FosTER: So it is! Lt,-Colorrel BRGXNER: ·The 1ms Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The hon. proprietors have no rights at all. There member says that although the bill con­ .is no franchise and no monopoly. But tains a clause which empowers the trusts the bus proprietor has endeavoured to to employ private management in con- make it appear that he possesses a mon­ 11ection 'lvith the whole of their opera­ opoly. As a matter of fact, the person tions if they so desire. who more than anybody else is opposed Mr. BADDELEY: The Minister 'lvould to traffic competition to-day is the bus 11ot say what he has just said about J'vir. proprietor. He tells us in one breath 'Stewart, the President of the Bus Pro­ that competition bet\yeen the trams and prietors' Association! · buses is an excellent thing for the pub­ Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: What I said lic, and in the next he characterises the includes all the gentlemen who belong placing of another bus proprietor upo:::~. :to the Bus Publicity Committee. his own route as unfair competition 3VH Transport Bill. ( ASSE l\fBLY.] 1'mnsport Bill. which should not be tolerated. It is then which we hear so much at the presel).t that we get all the consequent talk of time. Under the bill instead of the pioneer rights. So far as the present /private bus proprietor' possessing noth" bus propTietors are concerned, the Gov- ing save a bus license, he will be given ernment has attempted to meet them in a service license and a definite right every possible way. There has been a to run his vehicles upon a particular very keen desire on the part of Min- route for the twelve months covered by isters to meet them without tying the that license. Further, if he is taken off hands of the trust, without alienating that route he will be entitled to ask for the free use of our public streets-a another route, and if he does not get thing· which no Government has a right one that satisfies him he may request to do-and without paying them consid- the trust to take over his :fleet, in which erable sums out of the public exchequer event he will .be paid its replacement for something to which they have no value, and will be given, in addition, title. The objection raised by some of 25 per cent. for the disturbance of his these gentlemen and by the hon. member business. for Vaucluse is that because the trust ( Jl.fr. ANDERSON: Very generous treat­ will be responsible for the policy of ment ! mnning our trams it should not be the Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The Govern­ iicensing authority for the private buses. ment has no desire to inflict any hard- Mr. FosTER: These great assets will ship upon those .persons who are operat­ be vested in a trust and its first duty ing buses at the present time. The day according to the Premier will be to make this measure comes into force every the service pay. How then can it be bus proprietor will get a twelve-months' an impartial body? service license for the route he is operat- Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The hon. ing, and during that period he cannot member says that because the trust will be diverted from that route. At the be responsible for the policy of running end of the twelve months he may be our trams it should not exercise any diverted from it without compensation. control over any other system of trans· I shall tell hon. members the conditions port. May I point to what has happened under which he will operate his service in other places? In Adelaide, the trans- during the period covered by his license port board possesses exactly the same when I am dealing with another im­ power as it is proposed to give the portant part of the bill in relation to trust here. It is the licensing authority what is called a service license fee. If and the controlling authority. In Auck- hon. members read the advertisement land, New Zealand, there is one autho- which appears in the daily newspapers rity running the trams in addition to to-day they will note that this fee is· running its own buses, and it is the called taxation. The Government is licensing and controlling authority for, accused of having taken this idea from the private buses. Then, under our own some American place; it is said that Local Government Act, which my hon. Mr. Maddocks inspired it, and so on. As friend has helped to administer for many a matter of fact, the suggestion that this years in such a distinguished way, the license fee should be charged came from councils have power to refuse licenses the Local Government Association, and to omnibuses, to cancel licenses, or to is based on section 171 of the Local Gov­ do an;ything that they choose with them. ernment Act, which gives councils a They have the power to run their own similar power to charge for privileges services outside the area controlled by given to persons who run definite ser­ the metropolitan traffic authorities. In vices in an area controlled by a council. Newcastle district the council has used f Now, these service licenses can be that power without any criticism what- granted by the trust. It will grant a bus ever. It is only within the Sydney met- service license, and charge a fee for it. ropolitan area that we have the argu- That fee will be based, first, upon the ments as to alleged vested interests of nature of the service, and in no case can Transport Bill. , [20 Ftn.. 1930.J Transport Bill. 3135

it exceed 5 per cent. of the gross reve­ these buses will run. If we take th~· nue of that se1·vice. That is to say; position of the vehicles in SydncJy to·day, where a bus operator wishes to run in and compare it with that of vehicles in a closely-settled area, and in competition othe1• States, we g·et some idea of the with other forms of transport, along, say, manner in which they have been work­ a tram line, in an ~rea that he did not ing. In Qtwem>land, at the present mo­ help to build up, but which public ex­ ment, a bus :is charged £119 a year, which penditure has made for him~if he wants to~day in this State pays only £4.8. A to go there, into a populous route-he commercial motor vehicle in Queensland: will pay a higher fee, which the trust can to-day pa;ys taxes up to £297, as against charge lrim. If he wants to go out to £35 here. develop some new .area, where there is no !h. SAxmms: In the closer-settled other ,service, ' the trust can remit the areas in Brisbane they do not pay such whole of the charge for that fee if it a l1igh rate for commercial vehicles. likes. If he goes into a half-developed Tliat is only in the o'Uter areas! area it can chm:ge him 2 per cent., or lt.·Colonel BRDXNER: As far as I l per cent., and so· on. Power is given to know the hea'\'Y motor vehicle tax opE-r­ the trust so that it can charge a definite ates all over Queensland, but that is the fee for the privilege of running these extent of the differencf!-£297 in Queens­ services. ., land as against £35 here. The taxation :M:t·. GosLING : Is there power to obtain ·of commercial '\·chicles is ·not mentionecr tenders for the routes? in this bill at all. We saw in the daily Lt.-Colonel· BRUXNER: There is no press to-day a statement that the Com­ power to call for tenders. As a matter mercial :Motor Users' Association hau of fact, the only equitable way in which said that this bill was designed to tax the trust can control competing services, the commercial motor vehicle. There ls. or can allow competing systems to run no mention at all in this measure of on thtJ one route, is by charging them ta:xing the commercial motor ver.i. ~le. for the privilege, and setting up the gain This bill merely reenacts what is alrE'ady on one against the loss on another. The in force. I think hon. members wili statement that this is a form of taxation, almost be prepared to say that there i& and that it is iniquitous, is entirely some room for change. without foundation, as I shall show. As :M:•. STANLEY: Does the bill cover the: a matter of fact, the rates of taxation in transport of goods in competition with Victoria, Tasmania, Queensland and the railways? New Zealand are all much higher than Lt.-Colonel BRUXNJ!m: No, it doe& those at present charged in New South not extend tD the country areas. :\Vales, or even than some of those that Sir THo>rAs HENLEY: Why should the will be charged, if you take into consid­ commercial vehicles be taxed? eration the proposed fees. We have to Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: I was point­ remember that in this State a bus opera­ ing out that statements have been made­ tor has the privilege of running in far about taxing the commercial motor vehi­ more populous and far better earning cles, whereas this bill does not provide centres than in any of those places, and for that, because our motor taxation is. he has a better chance to make a big· under the Motor Vehicles Taxation turnover. Act. 1What I am i)ointing out is that -r Sir Tuo~rAs HENLEY: Who will get the vehicles which in this State to-day these fees~ pay £35 would have to pay £297 in Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Half the Queensland. The service license fee money derived from the fees will go cannot be called a tax. It is a definite towards a sinking fund against the gene­ fee, paid for a definite privilege. It hae. ral indebtedness of the trust, and the been stated that some of the bua ser­ other half will go to the municipalities, vices will not be able to pay that fee. for expenditure on the roa~s over which If that is so, it is clear evidence that if 3136 Transport Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] Transport B-ill.

you ask them to stand up to some pay- other words, if we are going to replace ment towards the general transport sys- one service by another we can only do­ rem they are not able to do it. They so by making financial provision for the {llln only carry on provided we allow replacement. This bill only does a little them to compete against the major trans- towards that, yet we hear a great deal })Ort system, the trams, without any of criticism about it. I will show hon. ~barge being made against them for the members later how much it amounts to privilege of doing so. The motor omni- in round :figures. As a matter of fact, .bus to-day is not paying and has not those people who are most affected by for a number_ of years, paid sufficient the charge of the service fee are those for the privilege of running through who are operating the best and most 'ilreas that have been built up, not by lucrative bus routes in the metropolitan -them, but by municipal and Government area at the present time. If we adopt ()xpenditure. Mt\nY of our populous the system of service license fees, we centres have been built up by the trams, shall get the result that the most lucra­ which were run there for years at a loss tive routes and those in which most in order to build up those suburbs. competition and overlapping in service 1\fr. FosTER: Do the tramways pay arise, will be subject to the ·highest rate -something towards the cost of the roads? of taxation, whilst those on less com- Lt.-·Oolonel BRUXNER: They do. petitive routes will pay a lower rate, At the present time they pay £130,000 and those on developmental and feeder :a year for the upkeep of the track; in routes will pay only a nominal rate. fact, they pay for the upkeep of the This will encourage transport. to go on Toads on which the buses run. In any to the cheaper routes and there will be -comprehensive transport system provi- a 1better distribution of transport; and .sion has to be made for the non-paying we shali establish the fact that the right line, as well as for the paying line. This to run along the public streets belongs 'City would never have developed in the to the Trust and is exercised by the way it has unless, in the days gone by, Trust in the public interest, and not for trams had been run out intq new areas,, some 'j)rivate person's profit. The bus and for a number of years had been run lf"'operators will receive a service license at a loss, .until the population became for twelve months and will also get the thick enough to make them pay. Just sdeguard that if they are totally dis­ in the same way to-day, buses are going continued they will be compensated. ·out to the thinly populated areas, and It has been said that this service those buses need not be charged any fee license fee amounts to iniquitous. taxa­ -at all; they aTe giving the rpublic a ser- tion. According to the figures of the -vice and are not competing with any Government Statistician, which are sup- uther service. Therefore we should let plied by the bus proprietors themselves, the people have that transport as cheaply the total capital invested in buses in -as possible. If bus proprietors want to the metropolitan area is £568,000, and go into an already established area they the total revenue derived from them is must pay for the privilege. £1,500,000. The bus publicity committee At the present time our tramways say that the charge of this service license have to provide £600,000 per annum in fee on their total revenue means a 12i interest on the State debt and £32,000 per cent. tax on their capital. Their 'in sinking fund payments to the Com- capital is £568,000. What they do not monwealth, or a total of £632,000 per state is that according to their own -annum. In addition to that, they have figures their present receipts· represent i:o maintain the roadways. If we are a return of 300 per cent. on their capi­ going to allow some other form of trans· tal. If we charge every bus proprietor vort to compete with that service, is it 5 per cent., which is the maximum fee not fair that it should pay something we can charge him under this service towards the burden ;which has been ere- license fee provision, we shall get £75,000 -a ted in building up the service? In per year. It was stated in the public press Transpol'l Bill. [20 FEn., 1930.] Transpo1't Bill. 3137

this morn:ng that the tax would amount same time, it is expected and hoped to £200,000 per year. I wish to correct that with improved administTation and that statement. I say that if every bus the power to control, the Trust will be proprietor running to-day was paying able to bring about a healthy condition .;:; per cent. on his gross revenue, the in transport affairs and that ultimately Trust would get £75,000. But, as a mat­ there will be no deficit, and that these ter of fact, the bill does not provide concerns will stand on their own legs. that everyone shall be charged .5 per At the present time, the Government i,~ ·cent. It is a sliding fee which goes responsible for the total debt of the from nothing to 5 per cent., and hon. State and, naturally, has to stand .by its members can very easily take it that commitments. So even if the Trust Eomething· about £50,000 will be the comes out with a deficit the Go>ernment ~mount c•f fees that will be collected will have to stand by it. Some Now­ from the existing services. castle representatives have asked that llfr. DAnEs: What will determine there should be definite provision made those fcc~? in the bill for the consolidated revenue Lt.-Oolonel BRl'XNER: The value or the Government to definitely stand ·of the route. If it is an old route, the behind the Trusts for three years, if they fee can he Lased upon previous rerc­ haYe deficits. I visited Newcastle and nue. If it is a new route, the fee can :'tated definitely that there was nothing be estimated and checked up at the end in the bill imposing any condition on <;f the twelve months' period. the local governing body or suggesting that losses should be recovered by a A question which has concerned some charge on their rates. I said the Gov­ hon. members is the question of -f!e:ficit. ernment realised that there had to be a Questions have been raised as to what commencing point and the Government will happen if in the beginning the Trust would stand behind the trust in the earlY makes a deficit in running the transport years of its existence. But I said thr; services, and some fear has beeR ex­ GoYcrmnent woulcl not agree to make it a pressed that this 1rill be made a charge hard and fast rule that for three vears upon local rate~. There is no clause in the trust could do as it liked and" thd the bill that makes it a charge on local if it made a deficit the Government rates. would stand behind· it. The Govern­ Mr. FLtNDEllS: The previous bill con­ ment could not do that, but if it could tained Rome proYision like that, did it and did it would be only an encourage­ not? . ment for the trust t9 run amok. Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: The original Mr. Dc~vms: Supposing the trust h:1:; bill did, but I want to make it perfectly a surplus! clear that in this bill there is no men­ tion of i.t. Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Well anice it will be for the Goverp.ment of the Trust or by the Railway Commis­ the day to alter the system and try sioners if they ha>e a deficit. At the some other. But so far these trust;; 9N 31.38 T1'ansport Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Transport Bill.

·have been successful in other- countries or let for the conveyance for hire or and there is no reason why they should for any consideration of passengers o)r not be successful here. · of goods or merchandise." Mr. MICHAEL BuRKE: Is there any Mr. SANDERS: A private vehicle does power given which is likely to cause not come under the control of the trust·? conflict between the trusts and the local Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: It has noth­ governing bodies in regard to the laying ing to do with the trust at all. down of routes~ An HoN. MEMBER: What about a car­ Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The trust rier? is a municipal trust and it takes over Lt.-Coloncl BRUXNER: A public the powers of the councils and the Gov­ carrier is licensed under the trust. ernment so far as metropolitan traffic !fr. DAVIES: is concerned. This bill was agreed upon Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: To-day t.!1e by the executive of the Local Govern­ traffic authorities attend ·to the reo-istra­ ment Association, with which I had tion of motor vehicles, and the licens­ many conferences. ing of a vehicle as a public vehicle. I shall now deal in some detail with t"nder this bill the licensing of a public the provisions of this bill. For the vehicle will be under the control of the convenience of honourable members I -trust of the area concerned. The regis­ will discuss the measure in the· order tration of the vehicle will be under the in which it is presented. Part I is Commissioner of Road Transport, who merely preliminary and contains defini­ becomes the licensing authority. tions used throughout the measure. The Mr. DAVIES: And he will also take the most important of these is perhaps the revenue! definition of "motor omnibus" under Lt.-Colonel BRUJ0NER: The whole which it is proposed to give the Gover­ of the registration fees go to the Main nor power to proclaim a vehicle wher­ Roads Board. The Traffic Department to­ ever its use is such as to in fact con­ day collects the fees but gets nothing from stitute the running of an omnibus ser­ them. The Commissioner of Transport is vice, notwithstanding the nature and chairman of the trust. He will also be construction of the vehicle or the me­ the collecting authority for taxation and thods adopted to secure passengers. registration fees and all licensing mat­ Part II deals with the administration ters will come under his jurisdiction. It is laid down that transport trusts With regard to constitution and general shall -be created, the first being those management the trust is to be composed in the metropolitan district and in New­ of seven members: the commissioner as castle and district. There is -al~o pro­ chairman, a man appointed by the Gov­ vision for setting up other trusts in ernment to represent business interests, other districts if they are found to be and five municipal representatives ap­ necessary. These trusts will be charged pointed for the first three years b; the with the conduct of passenger transport Government and afterwards elected by e.ervices within their areas and will be the various municipalities and shires in the licensing authorities fo~ privately five constituencies-the city o£ Sydney conducted omnibus services and other and four others representing the north­ public vehicles with a view of securing ern, southern, eastern and western sub­ to the public safety, regularity, efficiency urbs, as laid down in the schedule to and convenience of service at just and the bill. reasonable rates. An HoN. J'lfEMBER: What is the objec­ tion to electing them straight away? Mr. SANDERS: What is meant by Lt.-Colonel B;RUX:NER: The hon. "public vehicles~" member was; not in the 1Iouse when I Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The bill gave the reason. We are following the defines it as "a vehicle plying or stand­ principle adopted in Victoria, iN ew ing in a public street for hire or used Zealand, and many other places, that the Transport Bill. [20 FEB., 1930.] Transport Bill. 313D

-tirst appointment should be by the Gov­ Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: I do not ernor. The reason is that in the first think any Government making the ap­ place, as a Government, we are very pointment would select a leading bus heavily committed. We own the major proprietor or tramway official. It \Vould transport service-the tramways-and probably look round for a prominent we are setting up machinery to take business man of long experience, who over and run that great asset. The bill could bring organising ability to bear is presented to this House for the first on the management of the trust. time, and hon. members, hard as they Mr. A:t~nERSON: Like Mr. Oleary? have worked, cannot say that they are Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Yes, I should fully conversan.t with 'the way in which say a man of the type of Mr. Cleary it will act, so certainly the layman out­ would be a very excellent man. ~ide would be unable to take advantage of experience of what might happen Mr. DAviEs: Must the five local Gov­ under it. If there was an election to­ ernment representatives be from muni­ cipal councils? morrow of men to carry out this work, the public would not understand what I.t.-Colonel BRUXNER: They must they were electing them for; they would be qualified to be aldermen. They need read the sort of stuff that appears in not actually be aldermen, but -they must the papers, which is costing some people be eligible. Clause 19 (3) provides that hundreds of pounds to put for,ward to­ the members so appoir;ted shall reside day, and would vote as they were influ­ in the metropolitan district and shall enced. You would not get men elected not be otherwise ineligible for appoint- who would understand the job they were ment to the trust. , . to do; they would be elected on some ~fr. ANDEREOX: But the ,:electors of catch-cry or other. those five men must actually be alder­ An HoN. MEMBER: men! U.-Colonel BRUXNER: They are Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: If hon. mem­ not "plums" at all. The remuneration bers will read clause 21· (2) they will for all but the permanent head will be see that~ ordinary out-of-pocket expenses not ex­ Any person shall be eligible for election ceeding £150 a year. as a n1ember of the trust if at the time of the holding of the election he is eligible Major ,J ARVJE: After the first year, who to be elected as au alderman or councillor. will elect the five local Government re­ presentatives-only aldermen~ Division 3 is a very important. one. It Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Yes. deals with the management of transport :Mr. STANLEY: What will be the tenure services owned and operated by the of office of the business representative? trusts. That includes the management Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: He will be of the tramway s;ystt'm as well as ·any appointed from time to time. bus services or other transport services that the trusts may operate .. A manage­ Mr. STANLEY: Will he be elected? ment board will be appointed, consist­ Lt."Colonel BRUXNER: No; he will ing of a general manager, who will be be a Government appointee always. chairman, a chief engineer, and a chief Jl,{r. JACKSON: What does "business traffic manager. This board will be interests" mean with regard to that rep­ autonomous in the management of its resentation? staff, but will be subject to the trusts Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Perhaps a in other respects. It will be subject to better description would be "a business the trusts in matters of policy. In the man of experience," ~ho would be able actual carrying out of its job the man­ to assist ·the trust with his commercial agement board will, as I said, be autono­ knowledge. He will not represent trams mous. or buses. Mr. J AORSON: Who will determine tl1e Mr. :SANDERS: lie might l pay these gentlemen will receive~ 310 Transport Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] TranspoJ't Bill.

Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: They will be Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: I met the appointed by the Government in the first salaried officers, and they are satisfied. instance, and their remuneration will :Thfr. DAVIES: Did the Minister meet be fixed by the Crown. the wages staff~ Mr. J ACKSOX: What about their Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER:. I met every ··assistants? body that asked me to meet it. If the Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: They will be tramway employees did not consider it tramwuy officers who come over from the worth their while to approach mE', it is Railway Department. not my fault. If they want to see me Mr. J ACKSO:\: Who· will determine the they know where I am. salaries those offic.ers will receive-the DiYision 2 of Part 4 is a very import­ beard or the trusts? ant part of the bill. It fixes the capital Lt.-Colonel BRGXNER: The salaried indebtedness of the trusts tentatively at officers will be taken over from the Rail­ the amounts standing in the books of the way Commissioners. Hailway Commissioners. In other words, :Mr. J AOKtOX: Who will determine · we are taking the capital indebtedness their rates of pay in the future? of the metropolitan tramways at the Lt.-Coloncl BRUXNER: Provision is figure standing against them in the made for the establishment of a staff Hailway Commissioners' books. That board to deal >vith that. also applies to the Newcastle tr'amways. Mr. STAXLEY: The other night the The power-houses will not be included. Minister said that the employees would They will remain with the railways, and have representation! the tramway management will get its Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: That is pro­ power from the Railway Commissioners Yided for in the measure. at cost price. That is provided for in !fr. J ACE: SOX: What control will the the bill. tlusts have over the board? Mr. ANDEHsox: Does the :Yfinister Lt.-Colonel BRGXNER: The manage­ think· that that is a fair tl;J.ing to the ment board ,\·ill be appointed by the board? Crown in tl1e first instance for seven Lt.-Colonel BRU:XNER: I pointed years, and after that by the trusts. out the capital indebtedness of the Mr. JACKSO:'\ : Will the trusts deter­ trusts would be tentatively fixed at the mine the wages of the tramway officers? amount standing in the books of the Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The salaried Railway Commissioners at the present officers and others who come over from time, but a committee of review will be the Railway Department will Tetain the set up to deal with the matter. That salaries and the privileges they have to­ committee will inClude the personnel of day. If the salaries and wages are not the committee of review already created determined by some award of the court under the Government Railways Act of they will be determined by the board, 1912-1928, together with a representa­ and not the trusts. The board will be tive of the metropolitan trust and a autonomous so far as its own staff is representative of the Newcastle trust. concerned. Mr. DAVIES: Will the board have power Division 1 of Part 4 deals with the to borrow in the same >vay as does the transfer to the trusts from the Railway Metropolitan "\Vater, Sewerage and Commissioners of the tramways and of Drainage Board? officers and employees of the Railway Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The trust Commissioners who are employed in con­ will have that power. Part 8 is a very r,ection with" the tramway services. As important portion of the bill It deals I said, provision is made in the bill for with various funds which are set up in ·the preservation of the rights of those connection with each trust. There is a officers. General Fund, a Renewals Reserve Fund, Mr. DAvms: Has the Minister met and a General Reserve Fund. The Gen­ those officers, and are they satisfied? eral Fund will be an operating fund into ~'ransport Bill.· [20 FED., 1930.] Transport.B ill; 3141

which will be paid all moneys received in means this: Suppose that a portion of an respect of the transport services of a outlying suburb needs a transport service trust, including loans raised by a trust. and that no private operator will provide Out of this fund will be paid the expensE>s it, because the district is so thinly popu­ of running the trust's transport services, lated. In such circumstances the rate­ in addition to amounts required to be payers can approach the local council and paid by a trust in respect of its capital say, "If you will give us a bus service or indebtedness or loans, together with in­ a tramway service we are prepared to terest thereon, and contributions to or in strike a local rnte to subsidise it." There­ respect of any sinking fund. The Re­ upon the council may request the trust newals Reserve Fund will be available to provide the service, and may guaran­ only for renewal purposes-that 1s to say tee so much towards its cost. But the it will be used to meet expenditure in­ council c::mnot act without the consent cured in renewals, reconstructions, con­ of the ratepayers in the area affected, versions, and special works of mainten­ 25 per cent. of whom may demand· a poll ance. just as they ean under our Local Gov­ J'l1:r. RATCLIFFE: Does that mean that ei'nment Act. the tramway workshops. will go over? Mr. SANDERS: It would be very diffi· Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Yes. Should cult to get 25 per cent. of the ratepayers there be any losses incurred in the to demand a poll! working of the transport services Lt.-Coloncl BRUXNER: At Manly during any fin~ncial year, the amount last yea"I 25 per cent. of the ratepayers to the credit of the General Reserve petitioned for a poll and secured it. The Fund will be a1pplied in the first place to provision in the bill conforms. completely meet such losses. to the provisions contained in the Part 9 of the measute has been drawn Local Government Act. after very cbse consultation with the Some hon. members are exercised· in Local Government authorities, the J'l{ain mind about the estabiishment of an Roads Board, and all those interested appeal :board for employees. Part 11 of in roads. Th~ main change that will be the bill la~·s down that- officers shall have effected in the existing law is that in­ the same right of appeal as at present. stead of the tramways paying the whole but the appeal board shall consi!'.t of a cost of upkeep, as they do at present, stipendiary or police magistrate, a repre­ they will pay the full cost of mainten­ Eentative of the management board and , ance due to tramway operations, and a representative of the appellant. The as to the balance half of the cost board's decision will be final. will be borne by the General Trans­ . I have already covered the ground deal~ port and Traffic Fund, with which ing with private bus operators. But I shall deal in a few minutes. Other­ there is one portion of the bilL upon wise the responsibility is so divided which I should like to touch, namely, that where the work to be done is caused the question of compulsory insur:mce in by the tramway authorities, they will be the case of private bus operatiol13. The required to pay for it, but where it is amount. of insurance is fixed at £5,000 caused by the local go>erning authorities for each bus, while persons who dc'lire to or the J'IIain Hoads Board, they will pay become sel£-inswers will be permitted to for it. These clauses will clear up a do so on deposit with the Treasury of great many o£ the difficulties that have nn amount not exceeding· £15,000. occurred, and they have been agreed to by all those interested. 1\fr. DAvms: 2\fust each bus be insured Mention has been made of the esta­ to the amount indicated irrespective of blishment of transport services under its character? municipal guarantee. This matter is Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: A "bus'' is dealt with in part 10 of the bill. Its defined in the bill. provisions are based generally upon the Mr. RATCLIFFE: Will that provision law which exists in Victoria. Briefly, it cover taxi-buses? 3'1'42 'l'ransport Bill. (ASSEMBLY.] 'l.'ransport Bill.

· Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The trust Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: No; the will have power to deal with them. If loans will have to be approved ,by the they are licensed as buses they will come Governor. In division 2 of the same under the provisions relating to private part, provision is made for the estab­ buses and will be required to carry an lishment of a Road Transport and Traf­ insurance of £5,000 each. The amount fic Fund. Into that fund will be paid of £5,000 covers not only passenger all fees in connection with licenses, as risks, but third-party risk as well, and distinct from service license fees and is quite a fair amount. As a matter of taxation. That is to say, the ordinary fact, some of the buses that are oper­ registration fees, but not any service ating to-day do carry that amount of license fees, and not any ta.'Cation. Those insurance, while some do not carry so fees at the present time go to the credit much. This does not say that if there of the Main Roads Board. Now they is a very bad smash everybody will get will go into this Roads Transport and all he is entitled to, unless the bus oper­ Traffic Fund, and thus will be used to ator has something outside that £5,000, develop the cost of traffic facilities. That but it does give the public protection up is to say, they can be used by the Com­ to that amount. missioner for Transport, who distributes :M:r. DAVIES: That would not be much this money, for providing traffic facili­ for a crowded bus! ties such as the provision of signs, or Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: No, it would markings, and so on. It provides for not. However, at the present time there the cost of police supervision of road is no compulsory insurance at all. If transport and traffic, and it provides for a bus proprietor wishes to l1e a self­ the cost of the administration of this insurer, and carry his own risk, he will Act. The amount of the contributions have to deposit £15,000 with the Trea­ towards the upkeep of the pavement be­ sury. tween the tramline is laiid down in llfr. DAVIES: Per bus? clause 49. Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER : No; for the l.fr. DAVIES: To what extent will this lot. That is based on what he ,would reduce the revenue of the Main Roads Board? have tQ pay for the ordinary insuranc~ of three buses. Lt:-Colonel BRUXJ\TER: It takes Mr. DAVIES: He may have fifty! away the whole of the registration fee~ Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: He may have that go to the ;board to-day. Under the fifty. . existing law, the :Main Ro:1ds Board gets Mr.. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: Is that what the whole of the motor taxation, less 10 is hurting some of the ,bus proprietors? per cent. Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: .Some- of Mr. DAVIES: But to what extent are them do not like it, but we gave the you taking away the revenue of the :Main matter careful consideration, and came Roads Board? to the conclusion that in the interests Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: This bill of the public we could not allow a self­ takes away the registration fees, but th-3 insurer to deposit less than that amount :Main Roads Board will gain 5 per cent. with the Treasury. more of the total motor taxation than Dealing with the power of the trust it is getting. There was a deduction to borrow, which is in division 1 of of 10 per cent. of the total tax col­ part 16 of the bill, the trust is empow­ lected, to cover the cost of collection. ered to raise loans to such extent as may from time to time be approved by the 1.1:r. DAVIES: What do you think will Governor, and then clauses have been be the amount of monev taken from drawn setting out the conditions under the Main Roads Board? • which those loans can be raised. Lt.-Colonel BRUXNEH: It will be , Mr. DAVIES: Is that a way of evad­ difficult to assess. Probably this ye:1r ing the powers of the •Loan Council? about £100,000, but in normal years it . Transport .Bill. [20 FEB., 1930.] Transport .Bill. 3H3 is Eomething more than that. The man, the president of the !iain Roads money is used to pay for traffic facilities, Board, a representative of the 1-iuni­ police supervision and control, which cipal Council of Sydney, and five mem~ should come out of that source, the cost bers to be appointed by the :Minister­ of administration of this Act, and partly one representative of local authoritire;o;, the cost of the pavement, which is a one of commercial motor traders :mel road c01mnitment. The balance, if any, users, one of private motorists, one of after those demands have been met is to the },faster Carriers' Association, and be ·paid by the Trust to the Main Roads one of road transport employees. It Board. is a committee to advise the Minister on Mr. SANDEHS: Clause 202 says that the all questions dealing with traffic before balance shall be paid to the credit of regulations for traffic control are made. the Cumberland Main Roads Fund and There is 5omething of the same·character· the Country Main Roads Fund. Why operating to-day. Part 21 covers im­ the Country Main Roads Fund? portant provisions rendering possible dtc Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Because calling together of transport advisory these are registration fees for the whole committees to inquire into and repr.,rt of the motor vehicles all over the ;State. upon phases of the transport problem. The Minister and either of the commit­ Mr. SHANNON: Do private cars come tees have power to co-opt the ser­ under that? vices of any expert to advise in matters Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: Yes. As I of administration . have said, instead of 10 per cent. being deducted from the total motor taxation, An important amendment of the only 5 per cent. will be deducted, so that Motor Tax Management Act per~its a the ·board will gain 5 per cent. of th'} refund of tax to be made on t}:e sur­ motor taxation, which this year will be render of a registration certificate a'ld 5 per cent. on something like £1,250,000. number plate of a motor vehicle before It is provided that the Auditor-Gen­ the expiration of the period of registra­ eral shall have full powers of audit. Part tion. This will extend equitable treat­ XIX gives power to make regulations, ment to persons discontinuing the us·~ and in that connection there are one of a vehicle or taking it to another St;lt::.'. or two important matters to which I At present once the registration fee i~ would like to draw the attention of hon. paid there is an end to it. None of it. members. It is laid down that regula­ can be returned. Another matter pro· tions applying to public vehicles gener­ vided for is a public vehicles fund. Fees ally shall not extend to private hire collected from the taxation of public cars or tourist motor vehicles unless vehicles within the area operated by th<> express provision is made in the regula­ trusts go into the public vehicles funl tions. That is to say, they will be dealt and the Commissioner of Transport nays with separate}~. that money back to the councils or. the Mr. SANDERS: :But they will pay a Main Roads :Board, as the case may be, license fee~ according to the roads used by the vehicles. Another very important matter, Lt.-Colonel :BRUXNER: Yes, they one that affects Newcastle, is that th~ do so to-day. :But they do not Metropolitan Traffic Act is extended t') pay it to the Trust. The Trust Newcastle. has . no control outside the area. This deals with the administration of I realise that I have taken up a great transport by the Commission. Clause deal o£ the time of the House, and also 274 gives power for the making o£ regu­ that I have had to curtail my explana-, lations dealing with the infliction of tion of the measure in detail. It is dif­ penalties for minor traffic offences. Un­ ficult to deal fully with a measure ofthi.s der Part 20 of the bill a traffic advisory length and to answer all the queries 'of • committee will be constituted which will hon. members. The Government desires constist of the commissioner as chair- that discussion should not be curt!tiled; 3144: Transport Bill. [ASSEMBLY.! Transport Bill.

hut at the same time it is the GO\·ern­ will not be 11hle to give the 1mblic ser­ ment's intention to get the meabure vice it expects nor the service thev would through. like to give it. That has been the his­ Mr. SAXDERS: Is it intended to make tory of uncontrolled passenger trans­ it a party measure, or otherwise? port in every big city in the world whrc}~ has not tackled the problem. Sydney, Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: I cannot say with its 1,250,000 inhabitants and ali more than that it is a Government meas­ its ·modern equipment, is the last city ure, unless the Premier says otherwise. of its size in the world' to tackle this I would ask hon. members to assist me problem. Unless we arc prepared to in order that we shall not have to cur­ grapple with the problem the public must tail discussion to any great extent. They suffer. will see when we get into- Committee that in every part or division, after one I regret that a section of this com­ or two clauses of principal concern, to munity-I refer to the Bus Publicitv which I have drawn attention to-night, Committe~J-should have published th'e the remainder is really machinery. The matter which appeared in to-day's newR­ measure is a very earnest endeavour on papers. In detail the statements mad~ the part of . the Government to set U}J are not ·correct. A true exposition of tl1e machinery based on that which exists in contents of this bill was not given. The other cities of Australia, New Zealand, Bus Publicity Committee picked out Great Britain, the Continent, and Ame­ clauses to suit itself and distorted them. rica, for dealing with a condition that I do not object to anybody h·ying to get has be~ome so damaging to the public the best he can so long as he puts up a interest at the present time and unless case based entirely on facts. ' Those action is taken another year or so will gentlemen have been met by the Govern­ witness huge losses and inefficient ser­ ment in every way. I have had confer­ vice. We have reached a point in our ence after conference with them, and transport problem at which not only the I regret that they should have takei! trams are affected by competition. The the course they have. Aboye everything prevailing opinion is that the tramways else, I regret that they have made state­ are the only transport service so affec­ ments which are incorrect, and to which ted, but as :Minister in charge of the I have replied during the course of my Metropolitan Traffic Act, I haYe very remarks to-night. They alleg-ed that the strong evidence of the competition be­ Premier criticised the very form of con­ tween bus and bus, and between the elec­ trol which is being set up under this tric train and bus, and what it is leading bilL They quoted what was said bv to. I have had applications from bm the Premier in his criticism of th~ proprietors to remove suddenly buses Transport Bill introduced by the hon. from one route and philanthropically put member for Marrickville when he was them on anoth.tr, because people wanted Colonial Secretary. Under that bill the them more on the new route. Close in­ control of the privately-owned bus ser­ vestigation has shown, however, that the Yices and the power of granting licenses d€!sire for change was because competi­ was handed over to the Railwa.Y Com­ tion was becoming too seYere on the old missioners, and that was why the Pre­ route. I have had applications from mier criticised the measure. He criti­ bus proprietors to cut off a length of the cised the measure because it handed ove:;_· route because it was not paying, and the complete control of bus transport t0 leave people unprovided for-although the executive which was running another the route had originally been granted be­ form of transport. To compare that pro­ cause of the very need for serving that posal with the proposals made under this particular portion. I am quoting this bill is quite incorrect.. This bill sets up ·as evidence to show that in turn the bus a trust as the co-ordinating authority proprietors will suffer from uncontrolled Of all services and the management of competition and that ultimately they the tramways has nothing to do with Questions and Answers. [25 FEB., 1930.] Primary P1·oduds Bill. 3145 the licensing of buses, nor has it any­ ing in the scheme, hut as arrangements thing to do with the running of pri­ with the banks were finalised only dur~ vately-owned bus services. I make thi<~ ing the last few weeks, it has been im­ statement because the Premier is not possible for them to deal with the whole here. The statement that this bill means of the applications. Those which have the curtailment of the right of the public been received from the banks have been to choose whatever form of transport it dealt with, and a number have been likes is quite incorrect. As a matter of approved. fact, these people are trying to force the public to use one means of transport only and that is bus services controlled SYDNEY CORPORATION AMEN"D::'YlENT by themselves. I hope that the House (LOL~S) BILL. will give· me every assistance in putting Royal assent to this bill reported. this measure through. . Debate adjourned. PETITION. House adjourned at 10.26 p.m. The Hon. J. A. ·BROWNE presented until Tuesday next. a petition from the Poultry Farmers' De­ fence Association of New South Wales, in reference to the 1\farketing of Pri­ mary Products (Amendment) Bill, pray­ ing to be heard by counsel at the bar of the House, in support of the prayer of 1Lcgizlatibr ([ounciL the petition. Tuesday, 25 February, 1930. Petition re~eiwd and read.

Printed Question nnd Answer-!;ydney Corporation MARKETING OF PRIMARY PRODUCTS Amendment (Loans) bili-Petition-~larktting of (AMENDMENT) BILL. Prim'try Products (.\mendu.entl B;li-Constitution Further Amendment (Refcrendu.u) Bill (second :MOTION OF URGE~CY: SUSPENSION OF STA:t\D­ reading). l:t\G ORDERS. Motion (by the Hon. J. A. Bwwne} The PRESIDEXT took the chair. agreed to: That it is a matter of nec2ssity that this House should forthwith consider the PRIN-TED QUESTION AND petition from the Poultry Farmers' Defence ANSWER. Association of New South Wales, 11raying to be heard by counsel at the bar of the House in support of the prayer of the said ADVANCE TO SETTLERS. petition. The Hon. F. W. SPICER asked the Motion for suspension of standing VIcE-PRESIDENT OF 'rHE ExEcuTivE Cous­ orders agreed to. CIL,-(1) Will he inform the House and the country if any advances have been :Motion (by the lion. J. A. Browne) made to settlers under the Advances t.:J proposed: s~ttlers (Government Guarantee) Act? That this House should forth1vith con· sider the following motion, namely, "That (2.) If so, what amount has been made the Poultry Farmers' Defence Association available? (3.) In view of the urgen('.Y of New South Wales, whose petition in ref­ of the matter to primary producers, will erence to the Marketing of Primary Pro· he be good enough to furnish an ear1y ducts (Amendment) Bill was received this ·day, be heard by counsel at the Bar of the reply? House in support of the prayer of the pcti· The Hon. F. S. BOYCE replied: A tion." very large number of applications under The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: The Gw•• the Advances to Settlers (Government ernment does not propose to raise any Guarantee) Act have been received by objection to the motion, but it certainly the various banks which are participat- i::; a most inconvenient course to pursue.