Adjournment. . [12. MAR;, 19:3U.] Birds and. Animals Bill. 3671
lfi; BADTI~LEY (Cessnock) [10.35] : tions to thee Federal Government asking r desire to bring under the notice of the it to rescind the regulations it has npw (}overnment the fact that quite a.number in operation, when I could take action <>f my constituents are being injuriously under the Plant. Diseases Act to prevent .affected by the importation of citrus American citrus entering this State. fruits into this State. They have ap Whilst the American Government main pealed for protection against such action tains its attitude this State can do noth :again and again. This year the quantity ing to override the Federal regulations. :has exceeded that of the previous year. If the Federal Government rescinds its The present Government claims to pro regulations controlling the importation tect farmers and orchardists, yet only of American fruit I will take action, in this week at Gosford a very representa view of the fact that it is very probable tive gathering entered an emphatic pro the importation of such fruit will bring test against the Government's inactivity. disease into the State and cause injury Oranges .and lemons· are coming here to the orchard industry. I have made from Italy, the United States and other representations to the Federal authori parts of the world. ties on more than one occasion, and have Mr. THORBY: That is a matter for the received from them formal and abso Federal Government! lutely non-committal acknowledgments; Mr. BADDELEY: When Mr. Bruce Everything possible has been done by my :and Dr. Earle Page. were in office; what department to prevent Americans from was done by the Federal Government~ dumping their citrus fruit into this What has the Minister done with the StatP., but until the Federal Government l'ederal Government to protect the reS'Cinds its regulatitms I can do no more. <>rchardists of this State~ I consider If the Commonwealth Government will these people are justified in the conten rescind those regulations or in other tion they have raised. I again ask, is words, get out o:f the road, the New this Government going to make repre South Wales Government will prevent :sentations to the Government of the the importation o:f American citrul!l Comonwealth ~ Is it prepared to stand fruits. up to the Federal authorities. If not, Question resolved in the affirmative. it is the duty of the Minister to. tell the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m: people who depend upon this fruit for their living. I ask the Minister to make :a statement for the information of those who claim the protection of the Gov -U..tg.h5Iatibt ~aundl. €rnment. Mr. THORBY: (Castlereagh), Min Thursda'!f, 13 March, 1930. ister for Agriculture [10.37] : In re Jlly to the hon. member, I desire to Crown Lands (Amendment) Rill-Birds and Animals say that I have had the figures taken Protection (Amendment) Bill'--Guardianship of out since 1921. In 1922. there were prac Infants· Bill-Transport ·mu (second reading) tically no importations into this country A·ozac Memoriru Building. from America-only nine cases of 'Oranges entered New South Wales. In The PREsim:NT' took the chair. 1923 that number was considerably in ·creased. At that time this State was ex CROWN LANDS (AMENDMENT) BILL. JlOrting some thousands' of cases· of ·oranges per annum. In 1923 the Ameri Bill read a third time. can Government placed an absolute em bargo upon the importation of Austra BIRDS AND ANIMALS PROTECTION lian citrus fruit into America,. and from (AMENDMENT) .BILL. that day on not one case of Australian Bill received from the Legislative citrus fruit has· entered' the United Assembly and (on motiont by the Hom States.. I have since· made representa~ J. Ryan) read a first time. 3672 Infants Bill. [COUNCIL.] Transport B i~l.
·.GUARDIANSHIP OF INFANTS BILL. users on the trust: My counsel instructs me to ask your consideration and support of Bill returned from the Legislative thoss amendments which we propose to ask Assembly with amendments. Parliament to make to prevent any extension of Government trading. We do not wish to TRANSPORT BILl •. wre.ck the bill, which we believe, on the whole, to be reasonable :mel necessary, and SECOND READING. while regretting c~rtain things, 'vill not The Ron. F. S. BOYCE moved: raise any save essential points. That this bill be now read a second time. Nor have I heard, anywhere, any body He said: I feel certain that every mem of opinion against thi3. measure, which, ber of the House listened with pleasure as I hope to demonstrate, is completcl,v to th~ speech of my learned friend, Mr. neceEsary in the' interest'l of the Stat\'. W. A .. Holman, KC. His grace of dic The circular is signed as being from the tion, his apt phrases, and his elegant :Motor Traders' Association. The nameii language would invest the driest subject of certain officers are given. I will not with interest. I think it was Oscar read al.l the names, but it is signd hy Wilde who said of himself, in "the Ballad the secretary. of Reading Gaol," that he was "a lord The Hon. A. C. WILLIS: What is the pf words," and I think t'-at might very date of that letter? well be applied to Mr. Holman, who is The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: The lOth no stranger to the legislative halls o£ of M~rc~-two days ago. A.pparently, this country. But he was briefed for a at the same moment when they handed client, and he was careful, all through Mr. Holman the brief, they wrote this l1is address, to make that position per letter to you gentlemen of the Legisla fectly clear. He was briefed for some tive Council. That is where we bar of the bus-owners of Sydney. But I hold risters come in. I guarantee there was a higher brief than his. I appear for not one hon. member here who gathered the puolic of New South Wales. And, from the speech of Mr. Holman that notwithstanding the artistry which Mr. that was the attitude of the clients he Holman has at his command, I believe represented. that I have public opinion Eolidly be The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS= hind the Government on this measure. They used a double-barrel gun! The very clients whom Mr. Holman The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: The hon. represented are in favour of this bill. member is an old lawyer and he knows They did not favour me with a copy of that a double-barrelled gun is about the this circular which, I understand,. they worst thing- one can have in a case. Stick sent to every other hon. member of this to· one barrel. If you try two you arc House except my colleagues, but it is apt to fail with both. I have nothing dated the lOth March, which was after to say against the clients whom }fr. the bill left the Legislative Assembly. 'Holman represented. So far as I know, :Mr. F. H. Stewart is one of the mem they are a decent body of men wh-7 bers of this association, and Mr. Davies have amassed large fortunes during a iG the secretary, and the circular is ad very few years, and I can understand dressed, apparently, to every member of they will leave no stone unturned to the Legislative Council. It reads: protect their financial interests. They run their buses along the streets for the Dear Sir,-The Transport Bill will come before the Legislative Council this week.· use of which they do not pay. They pass For several months the Motor Traders' Asso through municipalities where they do ciation has been in communication with the not pay one brass farthing in rates. ~i~istc; for Local Government and many d1fficultles have been satisfactorily settled The Ron. W. :F. LATIMER: Neither d0 the Minister's attitude having been reason: the trams! able and jll:st. On two very vital points, The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: The trams ~,oweve~, whJCh ~ffect the security of private have to make and maintain the road ente~pn~e we failed to agree, first on arbi tration m place of fixed compensation, and over which they run and 18 inches on t~~«~ndly the representation of road· motor each side. Otherwise the bon. member :Z1ransport Bill. [13 MAR., 1930.] Transport Bill. 3673
is perfectly .correct. Take the muni interest'' are always to be the guiding cipality of Newtown, which is a fair force .. One of the earliest clauses in example. I do not know how many the bill is clause 12, and it will give a lines of buses run through 'Newtown, fair example of what the trust is to do. using the roads and no doubt doing Clause 12 reads: great damage to them, but I will guar ( 1) A trust constituted by or under tl1is antee that there is not one bus that Act shall, within its district, be charged pays one farthing to the Newtown muni with the powers, duties, and obliga1ions im cipality by way of rates. That must posed by this Act. It shall adopt all mea sures tending to ensure adequate supervi apply to a large number of buses which sion and regulation in the public interest run to and from Sydney. of all public road tran-sport and omnibus , The Eon.. Sir JOSEPH · CARRUTHERS : services operating in its district for the .conveyance of passengers. What becomes of their license fee? ( 2) A ·trust shall take -all necessary steps The Eon. F. S. BOYCE: The licen"se to co-ordinate all such operations within its fee goes to the_ Main Roads Board, just district, mitigate wasteful competition andl as the license fee of the hon. member's overlapping in service, and shall take such motor-car does, and the license fee for steps as in its judgment a1·e essential t() secure to the public safety, regularity, ef a bus is very little more than that paid ficiency, and convenience of service, at just by the hon. member for his car. and reasonable rates. Tl:e Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : When hon. members examine the The Main Roads Board helps the New clauses of the bill they will always find town Council and every other municipal that the public interest is the first con council. sideration. The explanatory memoran · The Eon. F. S. BOYCE: I daresay dum attached to the bill sets out con it does, just as the fee the hon. member cisely what is proposed to be done. As pays for his motor-car does. But the hon. members no doubt know, there is hon. member's motor-car does not run to-day no effective machinery to bring all day and does not weigh 5 tons. about co-ordination between the tram The Hon. Sir JOSEPH :CARRUTHERS: ways and other forms of transport for I want the Minister to be fair. The bus the conveyance of passengers, either in also pays the petrol tax. the metropolitan or the :Newcastle dis The lion. F. S. BOYCE: The hon. tricts, nor is there any effective machi meinber has not followed the point I nery to deal with the various problems. was making. If the buses pay tl]e petrol that arise in connection with the regula tax I imagine that tax goes to the Com tion and control of traffic generally. I monwealth Government. I was dealing would point out that, so far as I know~ with what the municipality of Newtown of all the large cities in the world, or any other municipality through which Sydney is the only piace where there is the buses pass gets out of them. not an effective co-ordination of trans The Hon. Sir .JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : port services. The police have had to The Commonwealth Government, which de the whole of the work, and they have collects the petrol tax, pays out of it been ask_e_d. to carry. out functions which a contribution to the State Government! are clearly outside ordinary police re The lion. F. S. BOYCE: I daresay sponsibility, and the cost has fallen on it doe3, but the municipality of Newtown the general public throughout the State. would get very little of it, if any. One I want first to say something about would have thought from Mr. Holman's the t~ams, but hon. members must not address that this bill was designed to do think that the Government wants to something contrary to the public in get rid of the bus. There is nothing terest. Hon. members will find that the further from the mind of the Govern overriding principle · throughout this ment than to abolish the bus. The Gov measure is the protection of the public ernment recognises that the bus has interest. In the very clause which Mr. come and should run, but I would point Holman .quoted the words "in the public out that it is equally essential that the Transpart Bill. [OOU~OIL.J Transport Bill. trams should run; and there is a wealth of all in moving a big concourse· of of authority, uncited by ~I'I'. Holman, people without encroaching upon normal hut coming from some of the very cities services there must be trams. That may· <>f which he spoke, which shows the great seem to be an extravagant statement for necessity for a tramway service as· well the moment, but take the case of a race as. a bus service. :So ·far as the trams meeting at RandwiCk. How are 100,000 are concerned, the total capital expendi people to be moved with motor buses~ ture on" lines open. to traffic up to 30th The Hon. A. C. WILLIS: Move the race June last was £11,74:3;189. This is rep course further in ! resented by State loan 'expenditure, The Hon. F. S. ·BOYCE: Some people upon which interest and sinking fund might like to do that. A similar but a have to be paid. I will give the exact much more ordinary occurrence is a figure presently, but I thiD'k it is cricket match, and even more ordinary £620,000. There are over 11,000 em still is the peak hour traffic when people ployees in the various tramway services. are journeying to business be_tween 8 and The total amount of revenue collected by 9 o'clock in the morning. The buses them last year was nearly four and a could never touch. it, and as the autho half million pounds, and it is estimated rities in London, Chicago, Birmingham that the tramways carried 3·33,476,000 and other places point out, you must )?assengers ip. the metropolitan area last have the trams to deal with the peak year. As against that, from the figurei! hour traffic, and traffic which may be a which we have got from the Government little greater than normal. Statistician who, I presume, obtained The Ron. Sir ALFRED MEEKS: They them from the bus proprietors, there are have never had trams in London proper? at the present time 592 buses running The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: They h,a.ve in the metropolitan area. The total never had trams in the central London {)apital value of their equipment is area, but the chairman of the London £568,000, and the total revenue received Generar Omnibus Company, Lord Ash by them during the year amounted to field-and r will refer to this matter <>ne and a half million pounds. The subsequently-hears out every word I Government Sta6stician has issued· this have said. I believe there has never been statement: a tram in the city of London, because There has been little increase in the num that city in itself is quite a small area. ber of tram passengers from I921-22, The instances I have referred to are though the tramline miles rnn· during the cases where trams must be run, but there last year, 1928-29, were nearly· three and a is another. I refer to the school children half million miles more. The decline com menced in 1924-25, after. a rapid increase who attend our day schools and our high in the number of buses; The de.crease in schools and travel at concession rates the tramway passengers in 1928-29 was more upon the trams. The workmen who than 10,000,000 notwithstanding an increase attend their work at earl;v hours receive -of about 25,000 in the population of the concessions while travelling on the trams, metropolitan district. and in the public interest it is neces In the same tiine the buses carried, I sary that there should be some utility think, 89,000,000 passengers, which is which gives concessions to school children about a quarter of the number carried by and workmen, Further, the tram being the trams. Tl:is year the trams will be a public utility has to supply non-paying unable to provide the £620,000 which they services as well as- thos:e that pay. There are expected to do, and will consequently is no opportunity for-the people who run show a loss of something like £250;000; the trams to say, "This suburb is not I have those figures from the Treasurer: paying axle grease, and we will not run It is ail very well to SIJeak of the tram-· th-e tram·any longer," or "There is a likely way service as a thing of the past, but suburb which will develop a bit, but trams are absolutely necessary, and, as I it will never pay, ·sa we will not run a said, r will quote some of the highest tram." The trams must come- in under authorities in· the world upon that. First their obligation. to supply· non"paying TransporlBitl. [13 MAR., 1930.] Trnn8pm· BiTt . 36:1'5
services as well as to develop suburbs police have had to limit the· buses: on in the- public interest and services. There the streets. It may be in the memary are none of these obligations on the bus of some hon. members that when the as privately awned. I do not blame the buses were unlimited there was racing bus owners for a moment. If I were a between them, and also an- op-eration business man running a bus and I found called "dragging." Hon. members will that the fares charged did not allow me forgive me if I do not explain it, but to pay wages I would take the bus off some people know more about it than I. at once, and so would any business do. However, it is evidently unhealthy manager. The tramway management, competition between the buses. Because however, cannot do that. There is no is was decided by the police to prevent obligation on the buses to provide the these things in certain cases, we had concessions which I have mentioned, and Mr. Holman quoting from a letter in they do not do so. i924 and another- in 1927 showing; as In moving the populace of Sydney he alleged a vested interest. lie did not which I believe is somewhere about produce any licenses because the bus 1,250,000 people, though, of course, they owners had none. He did not produce do not all go to work-and in dealing a skerrick from any Act of Parliament; with the peak-hour traffic the bus lags because there is none. Nor did he far behind, because it can never hope to produce a re.,oulation to that effect, compete with the tram. That is why it because none has ever been printed. He becomes necessary to provide a bill in had to drag it out and spell it out from the public interest which will preserve isolated letters and from something that the bus and protect the tram and co the Premier said, only part of whose ordinate the two services in the best statements he read. In his policy speech possible manner in the public interest. on the 8th September, 1927, the.Hon. the It. is the public interest which has to be Premie-r said : served all the time. The motor-bus pro We shall separate the management of prietors apparently recognise this, and the tramways from that of the railway~ It is hardly equitable- although I hear grave rumblings of dis content behind me I should like to re and I should think this is a very s-ound' mind hon. members of the bill which argument- was introdu-ced by the last Labour· Gov that the residents of the State outside of ernment, which only provided com Sydney should be called upon to pay- any· pensation equivalent to the balance of part. of the deficieney on the running of the. the registration fee, about £10, £12, or. metropolitan trams. £15. The provisions of this bill are Which is what happened. If there is. a much more liberal. Last year the buses loss of £250,{)0{) on the metropolitan carried 89,845,000 as against 333,476,000 trams, a man in Bourke will pay his pro carried in the trams. The figures I gave portion of that amount just as the marr before were slightly incorrect, but the in Redfern or in Ne-wtown will; on the proportion of passengers carried by the other hand, if there is a profit, a man in buses is still about a quarter. It is Bourke will get part of the profit. raised obvious that it would be quite impossible by the people in· Sydney) but it is hardly for the buses to lift that great amount of equitable for him to partiCipate· in that traffic. profit~ It is not my intention at this stage The ROn.. Sir J'osEPH CA.&au-rHERs: to de-al with -some of the arguments of :Mr. Holman; or with, his- frantic endea Are the trams run every year without a vour- to esta:blish for· the bus owners profit? some veste-d interests in the streets The Hun. F. S. BOYCE: The tram of the city,.some monopoly which these ways were very profitable· until the bur;es· bus owners may have to• the· excfusion hegan; to· skim• the-cream from the milk; of other people. It is true tliat the ehoesing a-n the best routes, aUowing·tlJe .3676 _ Transport Bill. [OOUNOU,.] Transport Bill• trams to carry on unprofitable lines and ropolitan Transport Trust and the New taking the best routes for themselves. castle and District Transport Trust. The Mr. Bavin said: bus-owners are clamouring, according to ·: We propose to place the metropolitan the wording of a letter which I have, trams under a. separate authority, whose for two or three representatives on that operations will be co-ordinated by the trust. The bus-owners are not the pub Transport Board with other services which handle the metropolitan traffic. lic, and it is the public whose interests have to be looked after, and not the bus He also said : owners. Who will form the Metropolitan There is no reason why the loss. on the Transport Trust? First of all, the Com tramway service should be borne by the community as a whole. Wt are satisfie bodies referred to shall furnish a inquiry was set up. I specially in panel, and the Government will 'ap• vite attention to this very important point the first trust. Afterwards the matter in view of Mr. Holman's members of the trust will be elected. statements yesterday regarding Lon The Government is not wedded to that don. A court of inquiry was estab· proposal. If any hon. member considers lished and this tribunal expressed the there is any better scheme, we shall be view that "no satisfactory and abiding quite pleased to consider it; but I do not solution of the difficulties of the tram see anything unfair in the present pro way service could be reached unless the posal. We do not wish to work any tramway industry were considered in re points. We must have some method, lation to the wider problem ·of pas and that proposed appears to be a per senger transport in London, and that fectly fair method, and t·herefore it has the best interests of the public would been adopted. It was suggested that be served if all services of passenger some disinterested tribunal should ad transport were so regulated that instead minister the Transport Trust, someone of being largely competitive they were who would stand like an umpire in the complementary." ring and determine the conditions of the Under these conditions, the London contest between the various contestants. Traffic Act of 1924 was brought into That would be a body without responsi operation. Amongst other things it pro bility, and we think it is very much better Tided for the setting up of machinery to have a body which has the interests of for relieving the tramways of unre the city and suburbs at heart, and which stricted bus competition in so far as it will, no doubt, evolve a weU-ordered was against the public interests. Under plan of transportation. The other sug this Act, the London and Home Coun gestion was that t>he trust should be ties Traffic Advisory Committee was one representative of the rival or sec created. This Committee held a num tional interests, if they can 'be so de ber of sittings and arrived at the con scribed. But with a body of that nature clusion "that the only satisfactory and we would get a sort of compromise. lasting solution of the whole problem «you give me this, and I will give you of passenger transport in London wa;; to that"; and the public might possibly suf he found in the adoption of some scheme fer. So we have arrived at the con for bringing all forms· of passenger clusion that it will be best to get rid transport under unified management, of sectional representation and select subject to public control." Under that five local Government representatives, a Act the Minister for Transport was given business man, and the Commissioner. power to limit the number of buses ply I submit that that is a very fair method ing upon the streets of London, to re of constituting the trust. I wish now strict the streets upon which they could to point out what has h~ppened in other run, to prohibit them in certain streets; parts of the world, and what opinions and generally to do what he deemed fit are held in reference to the co-ordina in order to co-ordinate the tram and bus tion of public transport services. ThPse services. The Act contained no pro are to be found in a report which has vision whatever for the payment of any been circulated amongst hon. members compensation to bus-owners nor were -a report by Mr. Maddocks, who gives any funds available for that purpose. chapter and verse for all the quotations Under the Act the Minister declared that he makes. If any hon. member 1,000 streets in London, restricted streets, wishes to see the whole of the context so far as bus services were concerned. from which any of these quotations There are less buses operating in the cen have been taken, I am in a position to tre of London at present than there were supply it. First, I propose to deal with in 1928. To-day, when an _application is the conditions that obtain in London. made for a new bus route in London, In 1924 a London Traffic Act was approval is given conditional upon some passed, but before this a court of of the buses being taken off a congested b 3678 Tron~porUlill. [COUKCILJ Trans_port Bill; area. When I was in.London many years matter very ·much. The argument is ago only horse-drawn trams were that our. traffic system .must be co-or operating, but I imagine that great city dinated, because we must have the trams has considerably progressed since then and we must have the buses. in the matter of its means of transport. The Ron. G. NESBITT : The London I think the Ron. Mr. Robson is right Unde.l'ground Management also approves when he says that the omnibuses in Lon of the principle of co-ordination! don do not attempt to remove the peak The Ron. F. S. B.OYCE: No doubt hour traffic. It is true that the total it does. Thus, in London, the hub of the passengers carried by them exceeds the Empire, it is sought to place in operation total carried by the trams but theit· the very principle which this bill seeks to numbers are augmented by the short establish. It has been endorsed by the distance passengers they carry. highest transport authorities in the I wish specially to invite thee. atten Empire. tion of Sir Alfred Meeks to the remarks 'Sir iHenry Maybury is the chairman of of Lord Ashfield, who is the chairman of the Traffic Advisory Committee of Lon- · directors of the London and Suburban don, and he lectured a little time ago Traction Company, and also chairman before the Royal Institute of Great of directors of the London Omnibus Britain. I have a copy of his remarks Company, which, I have every reason here and I propose to deal with them to believe, is the largest omnibus com later, I pass now from London to Birm pany in the world. At a general meet ingham, which, is, I suppose, more com ing of shareholders, Lord Ashfield parable with Sydney than is London. pointed out that the actual contribution In Birmingham tliey have the trams and made by the tramways to the carriage of the buses co-ordinateq; that is, comple London traffic was still so material that mental one with the other. I think the no other form. of transport could cope population of Birmingham is not very with it if for any reason the tramways different from that of Sydney; that it is were to cease operations. o;omewhere just under one million. The whole of the transport system of Bir "We must recognise," he said, "that the tramways me an indispensible part of any mingham is under a committee repre complete system of transport which can senting the municipal council, and the be eontemplated in greater London for buses and trams within the municipal many years to come. The crux of our pro belt .are all run by that committee. There blem is that the people are heedlessly ac quiescing in a competition upon the streets, is no competition there by private owners which must, unless checked, ultimately pre at all, subject to limitations to which judice us." I shall refer in a moment. There, .Lord .Ashfield, himself, admits In 1912 the buses operated under pri that we must have the tramways-a fact vate companies were bought out, and which I endeavoured to point out in the poli~y was laid down that in future the earlier part of my address-and that there should be no competition within there is a ruthless competition in Lon the city areas. Last year-and all my don between the trams and the buses information is, I believe, right up to which must, unless checked, ultimately date-an arrangement was in existence prejudice the buses. under which certain companies coming into the city charged twice the fare for An RoN. ME:MBER: The trams do not })assengers travelling in the city area. I£ ply in the centre of London! they came into competition with the The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: I said so Birmingham trams then the fare was earlier in my remarks, and Lord Ash doubled. Half the fare was paid to the field also says it. The buses do not ply tramway committee, and the other half in the central portion of Sydney. I they kept themselves. This was after think that they come only as far as wards compounded in the city for a sum the comer of York and Market streets. of about £10,000-I do not know whether However, the boundary does not really that was for each company or .not. · Tr.ansporl Bill. [13 .M.m., 1930.] Trans_port .Bill. ..3679 The .Birmingham Coworation .runs franchise w monopoly nf any kind both trams and buses, and is also .the granted to any .Private Qperator in Man licensing authority. .The service is en chester," and this is the re3ult: The :Man tirely satisfactory, and so are the :finan chester trams are in an excellent poSli cial results. I have the figures for Bir .tion .financially. Siriking funds have re mingham. 'The statement of .accounts .ducedthe capital cost from £4,000,000 t() issued by the corj)oration for the last . £2,250,000. Through services with buses. ·financial year, ending the 31st March, are run by the municipality, and also a 1929, shows .that the tramway services &ystem of delivery of smau parcels, which earned a gross profit ·of £323,000, 'the last year returned a net profit o:£ £8,000. omnibus services £146,00'0, and the trol The reduction of the capital indebtedness ley omnibus service £7,000-a total of in Manchester, as in Birmingham, is in £476,000. After ,providing for redemp sharp contrast With the .Practice and the tion of certain debts and a.siriking fund ·result in Sydney. for the redemption of -mortgages, as well Then we come to Glasgow, which used as interest on loans and existing mort to be regarded as a model city, from the gages, there was carried forward to the point of view. of tramway OJJerations. present year an aggregate balance of £242,000 with which to meet renewals The Ron. Sir ALFRED .MEEKS: It is. and items of special expenditure. The the O:Ifly place where they charge a half accounts show that the Birmingham sys penny fare! tem has been able to pay during the last The Ron. F. s: BOYCE: The hon. year £17,000 income-tax on profits, member will never travel for· a halfpenny £124,000 ·for the redemption of debt, and again. The Glasgow system carried pas also a contribution of £40,000 in relief sengers at a lower rate than any other of rates. The total amount of capital system in the world, and in addition, - indebtedness at present outstanding is it has made contributions to various only £2,000,000. There is an example of municipal activities and given relief t() the co-ordination of the buses and the certain municipal expenditure. .A total trams under the one authority, which sinking fund of over £4,000,000 has been Lord Ashfield and so m_any other autho accumulated, and the total capital in rities have pointed out is necessary. debtedness to-day is only £3,000,000. On The Ron. W. E. V. RoBsoN: Co-ordi the 25th April last year the Glasgow nation, or elimination of competition~ Municipal Council expressed its opinion The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: That was as to the co-ordination of traffic. It was the form which the co-ordination took, asked to do so by the Royal Commis but at the same tinie it was under one sion on Transport, and here is the result particular method. They allowed the of 1;he Glasgow report: buses to run also in Birmingham, but ( 1) Co-ordination of all passenger ser they made them charge twice the fare vices is desirable in the public interest, when they came into the city. But they particularly for the purpose of cutting out uneconomical competition and reducing left the buses, and they still leave the congestion. (2) .As regards city passenger buses to feed the trams, and the trams traffic it is desirable that purely city traffie to feed the buses, which ever way it should be catered for by the communal , might be-a complementary .and supple servi!les, namely, the municipal tramways mentary method of traffic. There is the and omnibuses. example of one control. I do not want to read all these things, Now, let us turn to :Manchester. I but it goes on: suppose Manchester is a city quite as (6) If the transport income over a par big as Sydney, and there it is similar to ticular year is distributed amongst too Birmingham. The :Municipal Council many competitors, none of them will be able to give an efficient service. In order runs both the trams and buses, and is to make municipal service effective there -the local licensing authority. Licenses should be a monopoly of the traffic. in the are granted, and there is a certain hands of the municipality, just as in the amount of overlapping. There is no case of gas and water. 3680 Transport Bill. [COUNCIL.] Transport Bill. There we have the example of Glasgow, 40,000,000 passengers carried. Berlin is and the wonderful success that bas been another example. In Berlin they have made of it there, showing the necessity a trust. The whole of the transport sys for what is provided in this bill-the tem is owned by the city administration. co-ordination of the tramway and bus It is not under direct municipal control, -services. Then step across the Irish Sea and under this bill our system will not to Belfast, which, I suppose, is not quite be. The whole undertaking has been .as big ·:.s Sydney. formed into a company, of which the The Hon. W. F. LATIMER: Only half cit¥ administration holds the entire .as large! stock, and elects a board of directors to The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: Only half, manage the operations. The board of hut still, the principle is the same. Now, directors in turn has appointed managers in Belfast the Ministry of Home Affairs to deal with the technical administration. for Northern Ireland appointed a Com In Berlin, Dr. Kramer, who is now in mission of inquiry, and that Commis charge of the Frankfurt system, has sion found: made certain statements which I will not That it is more advantageous to the read, but the figures from Berlin show public that the whole traffic undertaking of that under this local administration 50 the city should be in one hand, subject to per cent. of the transportation is at pre certain safeguards, and that under such a sent being carried by the trams, 23 per system the public can receive quite as effi cient a service, at a cheaper rate, than if cent. by the railways, 15 per cent. by there is competition. We think that there the underground railway, and 12 per will be a more comprehensive service, less cent. by the buses. There the system of economic waste, less traffic congestion, and co-ordination has been signally success 1ess danger to the public, whether travelling ful, and Berlin is a city which should in the public serVice vehicles or using the roads in other wayll. provide greater transport problems thlin • Sydney, because of its very much greater The conclusions of the Commission were summarised as follow: SIZe. (1) City transport should be a monopoly, I will only deal with two more ex subject to obligations and safeguards. (2) amples, one from Canada and the other The monopoly should be in the hands of from the United 'States. Mr. Holman the municipality. (3) Tramways still form would not deal with the United States, an essential part of the passenger trans port in any large city. ( 4) The present and did not deal with Canada. He did omnibus competition is unequal, and greatly not deal in detail with any of the places increases the dangers of traffic in the city. I have mentioned, except London, and, ( 5) Omnibuses are a necessary supplement quite unwittingly, he would have en to a tramway service for dealing with city tirely misled the House if bon. members transport. had listened to what he said. Detroit, That is a fair summary of the position. in the United States, is an outstanding !N e must have the trams and we must example of municipal ownership of trans have the buses, and each must do its own port. Originally, the various forms of part, instead of having unhealthy and transport were privately owned, but in improper oompetition, the one taking the 1899 the idea of public control first arose. cream and leaving the other the skim I do not know how big Detroit is, but I milk. should imagine it is somewhere about the We now pass to the Continent. J\fr. size of Sydney. The system originally Holman spoke of Paris, but he had no cost the city 43,000,000 dollars. To-day, great knowledge of Paris. He pointed seven years after the date of its pur to Paris as a wonderful example, but my chase, the capital cost has been more information with regard to Paris is that than one-third paid off from its own '725,000,000 people were carried by the trams in Paris during 1928, or more than earnings, .and the commission has, in double the number that were carried by addition, paid over 750,000 dollars per the buses. The tramway figures showeLl annum each year in taxes on its pro an increase over the previous year of perties. The street car system at the Transport Bill. (13 MAR., 1930.] Transport Bill. 3681 ~ llresent time is valued at 55,000,000 dol The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: That is lars. Since the purchase of the system not the policy of the bill. The bill i.; 90 miles of new trackage have been laid, to give these men service licenses and 30 miles of old trackage relaid, and the let them go, and for the two services entire power system rehabilitated. One to run side by side, but co-ordinated and a half million passengers are trans and controlled by one central body. I ported daily, which is 50 per cent. greater do not wish to go fully into the Toronto than in Sydney. Six hundred and fifty system. The Toronto Transportation five new street cars have been acquired, Commission is composed of three citizens all of which have been paid for from who act without pay. I will not deal the earnings of the system. Five hundred with the system at any length except and thirty new motor coaches have been to say that here again is an outstanding added to the system. It is claimed that example of co-ordination between tram the prevailing rate of fares is the lowest ways and buses. The Commission has of thirty-seven important American been entrusted with the control and cities, and that the citizens have saved operation of all publicly-owned and approximately 20,000,000 dollars in car operated transportation services-street fares since the inception of municipal cars, buses, and motor-coaches-that ownership. The operations are conducted offer service in Toronto. The Commis under a commission of three, appointed sion also owns some other lines, and by the mayor. The general manager of these have been wonderfully successful. the system is responsible to this commis The Hon. J. F. CoATES: The hon. sion. The form of the' administration member has not exhausted all the suc resembles that of Toronto. Toronto is cessful public ownerships, I presume! the last example I propose to give. There The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: No; but they have a transportation commission .. they have exhausted me. I have any Toronto has a population of 700,000, and number of examples here, and if the hon. all its public utility services, except gas member wants them all I will lend him and telephones, are OIYned by the city the book and he can read them for him: and operated at cost for the service of self. the public. They say their tram and bus Leaving that, I will now deal shortly system is as good as anywhere in the with some of the matters that were "dealt world, and the average fare charged in with b.¥ Mr. Holman, remembering al Toronto is 6.18 cents. ways that tne clients whom he repre The Hon. A. C. WILLIS: America is sents are in favour of the bill; they the country to which we are continually haYe found the Government very rea urged to look and see wl1at they do 'by sonable and just, so they say, and they individual effort, but apparently it is all belieYe, on the whole, the bill to be done by municipal organisB.tion ! reasonable and necessary. They only The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: I do not contend in this circular for two points. quite follow the hon. member's remark. I am using the example to show how That was on the lOth March, and to-day wonderfully successful the co-ordination is the 13th. of tramways and buses under unified The Hou. S. L. CoLE: They are the control has been wherever it has been motor users, a distinct body from the established. motor-omnibus proprietors. There is The Hon. P. l\L ilfcGmn: They own no connection between them except that the lot! two or three bus people happen to be The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: I know the on that committee! hon. member's attitude, because he told me that lie desires the trust to resume The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: The gentle the whole of the motor-bus system, holus man who asked to be heard here hy bolus. counsel, and who signed the petition, The Hon. P. M. McGIRR: And pay for was F. H. Stewart, and on this circular it! appears the name F. H. Stewart, so (. llA s»s2· Transporl Bill. :rcnGNCIL.J 1'ransp01·t Bi!l. take it that he subscribed to what ap I discovered 'that ;I ·was not safe ·with }JCars here. Sift Mr. Holman's speech £1,000, and I went for the unlimited as hon. members ·will, they will not find risk. I have· been counsel in a case anywhere that he or his clients are wheTe a verdict for £5,000 was given against the bill. They want as much where only one man was injured. Is money as they can get--'for which I do it too much to ask that at .least the not blame them-and also representation buses should adequately protect in re on the trust. Mr. Holman also raised gard to damages those who travel in the question of insurance. As to this them, and not let a passenger obtain .a matter, the Government is not wedded to verdict and .find there is nothing with £5,000 per bus. More is provided for· in which to pay damages. I do not wish some places. Mr. Holman did not pciint t0 do anything unfair, and in Com out that if £5,000 worth of securities were mittee I will be qt::'e prepared to con ltJdged there was no necessity to insure sider any proposal which is fair, ·proper, at all. If any other system can be found and reasonable to both sides, and in the by which adequate protection is pro public interests. I cannot say more than vided for passengers, I am quite willing that. to agree to it at once. It must, how In ,Mr. Holman's speech he pointed ever, not be forgotten-and I speak as out what a wonderful saving of street one with a very large experience in the space was effected if persons rode in city in motor-car cases~that to allow motor-buses and in this Tespect he a man to ride in a bus which is un made a comparison between the motor insured against negligence is a menace bus and the motor-car. He made a to the public. Only recently one of our calculation ·and pointed out that the Supreme Court judges-Mr. Justice man in the motor required 81.4 square Halse Rogers-pointed out that every feet of street space, but the passenger motor-car owner should carry this third in the motor-bus only 13.6. What he party risk. Actions have been brought did not .point out-and he had the same and men ruined for life, ·but no .money figures as I have-was that street space was to be found because the car owner occupied by tram passengers was 6.4 was not insured. square feet. These figures are from The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: electric railways statistics as recent as They are not. insured on the tramways 10 1st July, 1928. It is an unimportant or railways! matter, but I point out that when Mr. The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: Because New Holman was making these remarks :he South Wales is not so bankrupt that omitted the most important comparison she cannot pay damages in the case of -that afforded by the trams. Mr. Hol injury. man said: The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: It is not a question of paying damages · I respectfully submit that as an expres sion of simple fact. Hon. members will, but one of liability! therefore, not be surprised to learn that The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: It is a ques in many of the great cities of the world tion of paying damages-money is the tramways are being steadily ousted by the thing. I should like to ask the Ron. form of transport in which my clients are particularly interested. In this connec Sir Joseph Carruthers whether he would tion my clients cabled to the chairman of dare to run his motor-car with only a the General Omnibus Company of London- cover of £5,000 for ~hird-party risk. The Hon. Sir J OSEPlt CAURUTHERS: I suppose that is Lord Ashfield- I would not! some few days ago asking for certain in The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: That is so. formation and received from that gentle man a cable which I hold in my hand Every man carries an unlimited risk. the whole of which I will not inflict on hon. When I had a motor-car for the first members. That cable gives this informa time I had a cover of £1,000, but after tion: experiencing a few verdicts in the courts ''Miles of road covered in London -cases which unhappily I defended- omnibuses, 1,100; trams, 345." 1':ranspo1·.t Bill. [13 :MAn., 1030:] Transport Bill. Ii '•he 'had asked 1Lord Ashfield what he lise -such a such omnibuses on those roads which owners more than they have ever had. may be approved by the Government." Under that clause they are to be granted Thus he may initiate a bus service if a "service license" which, unless sus he so desires. No monopoly has been pended, cancelled, or surrendered, shall granted to the-motor-bus 'Proprietors and continue in force for one year. They they possess no goodwill in the streets, do not possess that now. The term "ser .for the construction of which the com vice license" appears in this bill for the munity pays. They have merely an :first time. Mr. Hofman says that these "authority to run" over certain routes. men possess "service licenses," but there Mr. Holman read a letter in which one is no evidence that any such licenses man who was authorised to run along a have ever been issued. No fee has been particular street entered a vigorous pro paid for the right to run over a par test because another bus proprietor came tieular route. The motor-bus proprie along and endeavoured to take away tors mer!;)ly have a tentative approval some of his clients. It is true that the from the police-an approval which may police have endeavoured to prevent too · be withdrawn or cancelled. They have many buses running upon our streets. I no security of tenure, and there is al understand that their policy is not to allow ways the likelihood of the Railway Com these vehicles to ply in George-street or missioners instituting bus services of Pitt-street. But that is a matter for their own. police regulation. The statement that Upon this matter there is still more motor-bus proprietors 'POSsess any kind evidence than that which I have already of "service license" or monopoly is ex given. A motor-omnibus "license," tremely difficult to understand. Cer which may be properly described as a tainly no such rights are derived from .license, merely licenses a particular bus, any statute, regulation or legal docu and makes no reference to the route it ment. :Mr. Holman read a letter writ is to traverse. I have one of these ten by Mr. Harkness in 1924, and an licenses in my hand. It sets out the other written by the same gentleman in owner of the vehicle, the pattern of the 1927, together with a statement by the body, its make, and other particulars Premier, and these, he contended, imply which are intended to enable it to be that the bus owners possess a monopoly. readily identified. This license lasts for Words may have been used by the Pre a year, just as does the license issuedi mier which could be construed into some in respect of every other vehicle. Regu- · sort of a right, but those words consti-· lation 38A reads: tute the flimsiest foundation upon which 38A. Where a line of route is altered, the'-· to build up a case for the bus-owners. license of any omnibus licensed to ply upon~. That is all the material :Mr. Holman had the route in question prior to such altera to enable him to spin his web. The term tion shall be deemed to be cancelled so far · ''license" is actually a misnomer. What as the route stated therein is concerned, but is referred to when these gentlemen speak it may on presentation to the Superinten- of a "license" is merely an "authority to dent of Traffic be amended to accord with , run." If they had a license it would the line of route as so altered, and shall be effective on such route until the date of th~Y have to be paid for. But it is not. There expiration of the license. is nothing in the "authority to run" to prevent an alteration being made in the The route covered by a private motor-buSif' route covered by any bus service insti service may be altered under existin~ tuted by·the bus owners. There is noth conditions without any compensatiol\1_ i:og to prevent the police deflecting the whatever being paid to its owner. Conse~ route of a bus owner if they so desire. quently this bill will give him 'more tha:q· They may vary it or cancel it, just as he has ever had before. they please, and in just the same way as Coming to the remarks of the Pre. they have often acted. mier whieh Mr. Holman quoted, the lat• Clause 137 of the bill to which Mr. ter did not read the whole of tliem. · He Holman referred w.ill give :Wotor-bus read only tlwt vortion which set ou~ 3686 Transpo.rt Bill. [COFNCIL.] Tron. that the Government would not do any by· reason of any action taken by the Trust or by an~ officer duly authorised by it in the thing unfair--that it would not inter law.ful exercise of any such pow€rs. fere with vested interests, if there were any~ The Premier certainly said that. But that is all subject to. clause 12, He stated that there would be no con subclause (1), which provides that the ·fiscation. But he also went on to say: thing done shall be done in the public interest. It says in subclause (2) that The Government had spent £12,000,000 on the trams and it was necessary to see a Trust shall take all necessary steps to co that this asset was not ruthlessly destroyed. ordinate all such operations· within its The Government was of opinion nething district, mitigate wasteful competition and would evolve a satisfactory method of overlapping in service, and shall take such dealing with the whole problem except steps as· in its judgment are essential to some single authority able to co-ordi secure to the public safety, regularity, effi nate both trams and buses. The trams ciency a:nd c.onvenience of. service, at just would be taken away from the Railway and reasonable· rates. Commissioners and placed under a single Clause 134 is a perfectly fair clause, and authority, which would necessarily . own them. The question to be considered was hon. members will see that a bus-owner whether this authority should also own the is entitled to· compensation. if he is im· buses, or whether it should be empowered propetly disturbed.. The amount of com to co,ordinate the two services. The essen pensation, of course, is in dis-pute, hut tial thing was that tbe transport system of the metropolitan area should be 11'>oked upon hcl' ~ts compensation, as . provided hy as a single whole, and that one autho.rity this bill.. I warut to point out that that should control and regulate it in the inter is the: law Imw; 'Tihe bus·owners are ests of the community. Whether the Gov coffilJ!ltaining; about this clause, but it is ernment might be able to satis(y the bus the law to-day.~. Section. 50'7 of the Looal men wholly was another matter. It mig.llt be. necessary to take some steps which G.Qvern.ment Act pro:v.ides it, and,. as I wQuld not commend. themselves to· the bus sa-i& before, they have taken advan~ interests. of it in var.ious, parts of tlle State. The So the Premier made it perfectly plain Lonclort Traffic Act provides it. I that what was wanted; was some single pointed out h0w the London. Traffic Act ·Co-ordinating authority to manage both restricted' 1,000 stl'eets in that city, and the trams and buses. Mr. Holman re" with:out ce>m~ensa.tion. at all. ferred to clause 134. He pointed out Furthermore; the· bus proprietors must that the Transport Trust-this body of ha"''e known what was coming. The gentlemen consisting of five municipal Labour· Government introduced< a mea representatives, a business-interests sure in whil:!li ail' this was d~ne;. and: not man, and the Oommissioner- one penJl!1Wo!!tli of compensa'tion· was ,:shalf control the running of priv-ate]Q-owned provided: ftn·; except the· Balance ot the motor·-omnibuses engaged upon: pa'slienger ImB. fee--£JiO• or £I2L-which might be transport in the distr.iet of the· t:mst,, and in particular and without limiting the gen" left. It is all verv wen :f0r tlie bus eralit_y of the foregoing power may, sul'lj.ect· proprietoi'!! to come ·liere as pu.btic bene to this Act- :faut'brs;. as one· mrght ahrrost imagine (a) g1·ant, a1ter 6r close any l'Dute fen a theY' are from tile speecn of Mr: HoP mo'tot'OillrtibUif service--- man~. lfut I saw· a. lett'er wliich appeared ·that, of course, is the law now~ yesterday· in: a u-ewspaper with regard to \b) Cancel or suspend such a serv-i'Ce;. the C'r!3nulla. .bus, an'd whicli' shows how wholly or in part; these things work. I'tr says:: -(c) Issue, cancel, suspend· or alter any time-table; Sir,~Wlmt we might expect ff left to the (d) Register m<)tOr-omi\ibuses; or fen:d'er mer'Cies· of the bus· proprietors is journey it follows· tl1e route of the. San port Trust e-a;rs, "You must not run dringham steam tram, bY. which the. fare is there any longer. We will' deflect you, 4d~ and put yon: somewhere else." He can Sb it undimmts the tram by ld~ Also, appeal. Clause 168 says,: the fare on the steam tram between Subject to this section any owner of. an Sutherland. and' Cronulla is 6.d., a dis omnibus . . . aggrieved by any· decision of tance of 6 miles; Tliat is, where the the Trust. with respect to . . • any terms bus competes. with the trams it under or conditions attached t1> any· such motor· omnibu&. service lic.ense ... may appeal to ()Uts the latter, but where there is no the Transport Appeal Court. ()Ompetition its fares are b-etween. three and four times greater for the- same dis So an appeal court is provided to tance. look after these bus men, if tlie trust acts against. the public· inter,est, Major-Gen: ONSLow:· Do not the New :bec-ause this District Court judge South Wales railways practica11y do that will have as, his guiding· princ-iple, kind of thing ?, all through, the public interest. Then The Hon. F. S. BO;yCE: Well, I I may say, with respect to this vested -dare· say they do, but two wrongs do not right of whi-ch Mr. Holman spoke, make a right. that in Victoria, as will be fresh in the :Major-Gen. OxsLOw : The last tin'!€ I minds, of bon, members; I think that 1ooked: at it the fare from Sydney to they put the buses out of Melbourne. I Albury was the same as from Sydn-ey to am not sure, but something like that :Melbourne! ommrred; and the authorities discontin· The Hon. F: S. BOYCE: That is just ued: the services without any compensa -a little different, but at the same time tion· at all. fu New Zealand' in regard I d~ think that the- example quoted to the Auckland system, resumptions can be pmhed teo far, because the fiue, were·effected on the basis of'the value of say, from Taren Point to Cr<>nulla, a.t the, fleet and, equipment, and the Act 1s., might be onrr a section where·. there dcfihi'mly. prescribed that nothing should were not many passengers. ram not· well bu, paid fDr goodwilL It is this matter informed on the circumstances. 'I'he G.f the goodwill in the. public streets gentleman who wrote that· letter was evi whicll these bus proprietors here· are so -dently smarting under some sense· of inc anxious for; We have examples show justice, and perhaps some lion, members ing tliat it is not recognised in other bere may know what are the real' facts parts of' the worlii; It is not recog• of the case. I want hon. members to nised1 irr London; in Victoria, or in bear in mind tha.t the Trust is not gpi:ng :New. Zealand. to do. anything unreasonable, and if it I now want to pass to the provisions .(loes there is the right of appeal. Clause with regard· to insur-ance. Provision is 1M is.in Pact. .XJIJ of tlm·bilLI£ we.look made that each bus is to be insured for -at clauses 167 ard 168 we see that there £5,001), but I can see at once that if a are appeals in re"arrl to anything iu. that man owns ninety buses he does not want -part. In regard to. clause 167,. which to be insured for £450,000. What lie will .(leals with com11ensation,. there is. a right do will be what is done in other 'busi (lf appeal. It says:. nesses,; that is; he will take an unlimited Ther.e shall be a court ot a:ppeat to. hear risk. But if he only has one bus, £5,000 :appeals against decisions of the Trust othE',r is little enough. Sometime ago an acci~ than determination as to valuation and dent occurred a.t Lawson when a bus :amounts payable in respect of the· pu·rehase "Of motor-omnibus undertaliing!f, and; deel: got. into collision with a motor-car, two sions relating tc re~stration eertilicate:s passengers in the bus were kined; the bus or drivers' or eonducoors' licenses. and the. motor-car were damaged, and That would be· as to the vaillation of people in the car w.ere injured. That l'Ouies, and all that sort· of thing. A matter did not gp to the assessment of man is. running a. bus on a certain route, damages, but £5,000 would not be a great and paying a certain tax, and the Trans• amount. to cover. such. an accident as that., Transport Bill~ [COUNCIL.] Transport Bill. I saw in the newspapers that only yes for the publicans and give them com· terday at half-past 9 a bus going across pensation based on three years profits.'' the Glebe Island bridge ran into the side Who paid the publicans' compensation~ of the road, struck the wire railing and They paid it themselves. The compensa· tore it away. If the rate of speed had tion fund was a fund contributed to by been greater the bus would have dashed the owners and licensees themselves, so through the railing and dropped 30 feet that when any hotel was wiped out there with its load of passengers. Nothing hap would be adequate compensation. pened in that case; but there have been The Ron. A. C. WILLIS: That fund many cases recently where accidents have was intended to apply if all hotels were l1appened. In one .bus accident in Ohio wiped out! nine persons were killed, and every other The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: The l1on. passenger in the bus was injured. In a member knows perfectly well what was bus crash in London five pe:t:sons were the object of the fund. The publicans killed and ten injured. At Whitby three paid a certain percentage of their tak persons were killed and thirty injured ing into a common fund. in a bus accident. In another accident The Ron. A. C. WILLIS: Three per in London fifty-one passengers. were in- . cent.! jured, some seriously. In a tram and · The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: And then bus collision which occurred in Mel a public house was de-licensed by the bourne at the beginning of last year . Licmsing Board the publican received several were killed and seventeen were compensation. But the bus proprietors taken to hospital. So it would appear claim here that the public have to pay that £5,000 is not too much to ask a the compensation, not their fellow bus man to provide as an insurance fund if owners. The point is that the fund .from his bus driver is guilty of negligence. which publicans were compensated did As I said earlier, I was personally en not contain one penny of public money. gaged in a case concerning an accident Again, the hotel licensee paid a very between a motor-cycle and a motor-car, heavy license fee. I understand that where a verdict of £5,000 was given to hotelkeepers pay a fee of 5 per cent. on one man. At the same time, I am pre all liquor purchases. Therefore, if .a pub pared to accept or introduce an amend lican purchased liquor to the extent of ment which will give the trust power to £100,000 a year he has to pay a license fee make proper provision with regard to of £5,000, and I imagine some of the big· insurance. All the Government wants hotels must purchase a great deal more to do is to see that the public is properly than that. I do not wish to continually safeguar"ded. point out that the bus proprietor uses Mr. Holman claimed that the publican the public roads and the roads of the and the bus owner were on equal terms various municipalities. with regard to compensation. There are The Ron. llfajor-Gen. ONSLOW : We aU some points of difference. which I would use the roads! like to· point out. The first is that the The Ron. F. S. BOYCE: I know; but publican carries on his business in pri the hon. member does not use them all vate premises, and not on the public day. The bus owners use the roads, they street. The publican has a settled place use the police, and pay nothing whatever. of business, and the number of such The publican was taxed right. and left by b~inesses is strictly limited. The bus the State, and the State paid him noth ~.::: G1Y;; to competition from other buses, ing for compensation. He got his com from the railways, and from any other pensation out of his fellow publicans. form of transport that may come into He, at all events, had in his pocket some existence. Mr. Holman said, "Why not thing which was called a license, which treat the bus proprietor the same as you the bus owner has not got. treated the publican? The publican had The Ron. G. NESBITT: And thepubli a license for a year. So have the buses. has no representation on the Licensing ·Do for the bus proprietors what you did Board! · Transport Bill. [13 MAR., 1930.] Transport Bill. The Hon, F. S. BOYCE: That is so. years before he mad~ a penny for him There are two other important points to self, because he had paid three years' which I desire to refer. One is con net profits as the price of the business.· tained in clause 158, and has reference Under this bill the Government is pre to the compensation which it is proposed pared to take over a man's buses and to give. plant at a value, and to give him 2& per cent. additional as compensation. [Tlle President left t11e chair at 6.30 p.m. In addition, it is proposed to take his Tile Ho~tse re.sumed at 7.50 p.m.] land and to pay him for that also. If The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: Before he has garages they are to be taken· over tl1e adjournment I was dealing with at current market .-alue. The man is ::\Ir. Holman's argument in regard first to be· offered another route, an<;l it to putting the bus proprietor on the is only in the event of his declining to ;,arne level as the publican, and pay accept it that these proYisions are t~ ing him exactly the same compensation. operate. Under all the circumstances I may have done a little injustice to the Government thinks 25 per cent. is ~h. Holman. The argument he should fair compensation, and that that is all hHe used was the one I used about the the public should be asked to pay. Of publican who was dispossessed, but appar course, lie is also refunded the propor ently he was only referring to the pro tion of his fees, and if his land is onl;y: hibition referendum where, it is true, partly used in connection with the garag the public were asked if they would con ing or repairing of the bus, he only gets sent to prohibition on the terms of giv as much as can be attribi.1table to that~ ing three years' net profits as com That is the position in regard tp com pensation. But the public would not pensation of the man whose bus route do it. I know one dear old gentleman is taken away. It is, of course, a matter -very dear to me-who has been identi for the House, but the Gowrnment is fied with the temperance movemep·· for of the opinion that this man has been many years, and who, when he sa1~ hat living on the public. He has had no shop provision in the bill, said, "I am not rent to pay; he has had no special educa~ going to vote for prohibition on those tion to undergo, and has been using the terms," and he did not. I am not sure public facilities all the time, and when what he did at the ballot, but I think the public usc their own streets with he ·sent to the returning officer as a their 0\\'11 vehicles the Government fine for not having voted, £2, which, I thinks that 25 per cent. is sufficient. bdieve, was returned. I am not a busi The Hon. A. SIX CLAIR: Is it 25 per ness man; I have practised at the bar; cent. on the value? \Vould that run into· but I ask any business man whether, if three ;years' profits? he sells his business and drops right out The Hon. F. S. BOYCE: It is 8~ per of it, he expects to get as the price of cent. for three years. I now wish to. the goodwill three years' net profit. I speak about the licensing fee. Mr. Hol know something of a solicitor's business. man quite correctly pointed out that iti If a solicitor can get one year's net profit might be 5 per cent., but he went on. as the price of his business he is doing to assume that everybody was going to pay 5 per cent. of their takings. There Yery well. Yet Mr. Holman comes here is nothing of that sort in the bill-it. and says, "You are taking my business; is provided that the fee shall not exceed: I sell it to you, and the price of it 5 per cent. ·The man who runs along is not only the cost of the plant, not a poptllous thoroughfare may be able. only the cost of the land, but th~ee to pay 5 per cent., whereas the one ~ears' net profits." I should imagine who is using a route which has only that in the business community of Syd just been developed may not be able ney there would be very few businesses to pay :1 per cent. It. is a question sold if the purchaser had to work three for the trnst, which has the right to, .3690 Transport· Bill. . [COUNClt.I,· · Ti·ansport Bill: . ~ ·decide,. and in this- matter them is a .vide for. the variations of public require right of appeal to a District' Court judge ments.· According· to the figures which · if anything unjust is. done. I desire .have been given_ to the Government hy to say a little more about that because the bus-owners; ·there are at present 592 this matter as to how the buses are to licensed. motor- down the amount at £75,000. But that From what I gather from the users and is assuming that everybody will pay the the prgprietors of the buses there is no 5 per cent. As I liave·stated, the amount objection to the second. reading· being may be £5(};000, of which £25,000 will taken. I shall bee quite reasonable in go towards the upkeep of the roads, ·Committee and prepared. to consider any which· is fair, seeing·the •buses at present 'suggestions which are proper in the pub pay nothing. The other £25;000 will be lic interest. used for t~e purposes of· the trust. The Ron. J. F. COATES: The House Those are the main points, excepting has been very fortun·ate to hear upon that' the rpractice of fixing the taxation two nights in succession .two splendid on the· gross receipts was not in-vented · speeches. Yesterday, we listened to a by this. Government. It is quite a com speech that was characteristic of Mr. mofr thing to do. In America it is usual · Holman, K.C., the representative of the and not uncommon. In .North Carolina bus-owners, and to-day we have had a they charge 6 per cent. on the gross long address from another learned K.O., receipts of the buses and in New Jersey the Attorney-·General, who, I believe, 5 per cent. on the gross earnings. has made one of the best addresses of The. Ron. W. E. V. RoBSON: Is that his career. Ron. members occupy the where there is a monopoly? Do they get position of a: jury, but unlike a jury, a franchise ? they must assign· reasons for their ver Tlie Ron. F. S. BOYCE: There may dict. I should like to be supplied with be a :&anchise, say, for a year or some a copy· of Mr. Rolman?s address, and suah·period. That-would: also apply here. also with a copy of the speech made by l pointed out the method a-dopted in the Attorney-General, with a view to Birmingham. The buses can charge what comparing·the two. The Attorney-Gene they· Uke up to the city gntcs, but once ral has stated that the information im they get into the city t!iey have to parted by- Mi·. Holman is not correct. In charge twice as much as the· trams. view of that smtement it is only fair Half of that amount received: was given that the Attorney~General shoufd con to the· corporation authorities. A eondi sent to an adjournment of the debate tion of ·the franchise in Chicago i:S that until Tuesday next. Such· an adjourn they pay 5 per cent. of the profits for city ment 1 believe, would facilitate the dis transport. faeilities. cussion upon the· motion for the second The: Ron. A. :NL HE)fSLEY : That· i's 5 reading of the oill With the knowledge per cent. 011 the profits.!' that we· shourd g:ain from a perusal o£ The Hou. F: s: BOYCE:: Yes. In tire addresses tfl which I have referred, Chi~a.gp of the total profits 5 p:er cent. debate would be e'-"pedited: Time would is set apart for improvements in< city be sa¥ed in that it would. not. he ne~es transport facilities, 5'5 per cent. goes sary for us. to ask questions which other• t'o the city a11d 45 per cent. to the pi:i wise we shall be. obliged to ask,. a;nd the vate· company concerned~ That is the interval would; also afford us an oppor information I have. tunity to prepa1~e. our. speeches. ]l '!\ave· nothi11g fUTther to ad'd. l The H-on .. E. S. BoveE: If. the Ron. leave t'he bill in the hands of the House Mr.. Coates is- nat prepared. to speak, it saying as I did at ·the beginning thlrt may be that somebody else is prepared to :r am n(')t wedded to particular clauses. do so. I should be glad to accede to the I know that there are· in tl:ii's House request which has been. made, but I cer men' of large experience in bllSiness; who tainly would like to make s0me progress have been in the habit of hamlling large to-night. In any case. I do not propose -concerns. I assume there is· no place to ask the House to sit later than haT£~ more suitable than the Leg;i.slative Coun past 9 o'clock! cil' in which to di'scuss what is fair ami The Hon. J. F. CQ:ATES: I regret what" is· proper in such a. case as this. It that the Attorney-General has declined was stated in the Premiel"·s· pre-election to accede to my request. Quite a !lum speecl:i. that this bill would be· passed: ber of hon. members upon both sides o£ 3692 Transport Bi3l. [COUNCIL.] Transport Bill. "the Chamber had asked me to make an Somewhere between these two statements appeal for an adjournment. The Attor the truth probably lies. But it is hard ney-General has said that Mr. Holman to put one's finger upon the exact spot. has unwittingly made statements which The bill proposes to co-ordinate two ser are not in accordance with facts. Upon vices-one owned by the State and the the other hand, Mr. Holman supplied other by private enterprise. A few certain figures, as statements of fact. months ago, the columns of our news Yet in the face of this conflict, we are papers were filled by persons . who asked to proceed with the debate. I feel affirmed that in the principal cities of sure that the Attorney-Genera! will be the world tram-lines were being pulled prepared to place in the hands of f-Very up and buses substituted for them. hon. member a copy of his own speech Within a couple of days a reply was and also a copy of the speech delivered · forthcoming that the statement in ques by Mr. Holman. tion was not true, and that the trams The Hon. J. H. WisE: Did not Mr. were carrying a greater number of pas Holman say that he spoke not from his sengers than ever-a number greatly in own knowledge, but from what he had excess of the capacity of the buses to been told? c&rry, if the trams were dispens.!Jd with. What was published in the press a month The Hon. J. F. COATES: Mr. Hol or two ago has been repeated upon the man made certain statements that were floor of this House. The Attorney-Gene furnished to him as statements of fact ral has stated, on the authority of a gen by the persons who briefed him. tleman who is the head of the bus inter An RoN. ME~IBER: Would copies of ests in London, that it would not be the two speeches give us any more infor possible for the buses to carry the pas mation than we already have~ sengers at present being carried by the The Ron. J. F. COATES: Quite a trams of that city, if tram transport lot. However, as the Attorney-General were abolished. In Committee, I hope will not consent to an adjournment of the Attorney-General will be able to give the debate, I shall proceed with my re us even more detail than he has supplied marks, based as they will be upon one in the exhaustive speech which he has or two notes that I have with me. This delivered to-day. The statements made is the first occasion upon which two op by one. side or the other should be cap posite cases have been put to us with able of proof up to the hilt. It is strange the same degree of ability as they have indeed to find that those persons who, a been presented by two learned King's few months ago, were writing to the Counsel upon this bill. newspapers in favour of the bus-owners, The Hon. A. C. WILLIS: Probably to-day have their backs to the wall, and both gentlemen are wrong. I would not are fighting to pre,·ent the tramway au be guided by either of them! thorities taking over the buses. We are asked to legislate upon this matter in The Hon. J. F. COATES: I have not such a way as will do. justice to both the slightest doubt that if Mr. Holman these interests. In introducing the bill were present, he would pull the Hon. the Government has tackled one of the Mr. Boyce's speech to pieces, just as the most difficult problems with which it Hon. Mr. Boyce has pulled his speech could possibly deal. And I do not care to pieces. which Government is in power the at So far as the bill itself is concerned, tempt'is fraught with great difficulty. I it is somewhat unique. A learned K.C. want to say, in fair jmtice, that the has assured us that it is fraught with :Minister who drew up that hill-while great danger to the interests of the bus we may not agree with (!ertain of its proprietors ef this State. · Upen the principles or details-is entitlQd to some other hand, men who favour tram credit for bringing forward a hill which transport have told us that it constitutes shows a considerable amount of research a great danger to the tramway interests. and thought. But in the bill th.ere are . . . . - Transpo'l't Bill. [13 MAR., 1930.] Transport Bill. 3693 many things to which we mnst object, only half the message in favour of pub and at the Committee stage we will deal lic ownership that the Attorney-General with them. was prepared to give. I hope that at In passing, I would like the Attorney some future date he will continue on General to explain to this House on that line of argument, and that we shall what principle the Government is work find ourselves in accord on the matter ing in its legislation. Some months ago a little oftener than in the past. we were asked to pass a bill providing Will the Attorney-Genersl give some that New South Wales should join the explanation of the meaning of subcl:mse Loan CounciL We were told it was an (8) of clause 38? It says: admirable thing to have one body bor No officer transferred under this sec rowing for the whole of Australia. Argu tion shall be entitled to claim benefits ments were brought forward to prove under this Act as well as under any other Act for the same period of service. that it was in the best interest~ of ·New .South Wales to join the Loan Council and then subclause (9) says: of Australia, which would raise money In connection with the transfer of any for the whole of Australia and the dif officer, the provisions of the Government Railways Amendment (Officers) Act, 1929, ferent States. In this bill we have the shall be regarded. same Government saying, "While we asked you·to take New South W'ales out What is the meaning of that subclause~ of the money market, and to let one I have gone through this bill-necessar authorit.Y borrow, we are now asking you ily very hurriedly-but when I found to give to this proposed trust authority those subclauses I admit I could not which we refused to the Railway Com get any meaning from them, and I hope missioners." This is the GoYernment the Attorney-General will explain them which, after preaching the uoctrine •of to me. Then I read daus6 104: (1) which says: ' one borrower, Jlas given power for the first time to the Sydney :Municipal EJoun In making promotions the board shall take into account efficiency, special qualifications cil to borrow money in America, has and aptitude, examination results, seniority given power to the :Metropolitan Board and ~ood c?n?uct; but no officer qualified of Water, Sewerage and Drainage to bor by h1s semonty, good conduct efficiency row money, and now it asks us to give and examination shall be passed over un~ less the head of his branch in writing authority to this proposed trust to bor so advises the board. ' ' row money. I wish that the Government, when laying down a principle in regard I would like the Attorney-General to to these things, would adhere rto it. tell me if those two clau8es are to be There are one or two clauses in this read together. It appears to me that· bill that I would like the :Minister to they are connected. explain. I sincerely 'regret that the I recognise that this is largely a Com enthusiasm of an hon. member here so mittee bill. The Attorney-General has carried him away that he stopped th~ been good enough, to say that in Com Attorney-General in a eulog;y of State mittee he will consider any reasonable ~ontrol which was really admirable. amendment. When amendments are · The Hon. A. C. WILLIS: He was talk moved from this side of the House they hig about municipal socialism! are always reasonable, so I b0pe the At The Hon. J. F. COATES: WeU..,I never torn:ey·General will carry out the wishes heard any man on the Labour side of of the Premier in another place, where he politics who was advocating State con said that he wanted this bill to be de trol or · public ownership do it with bated in a non-party spirit. I hope that greater vigour, or more logically, or with will be carried out here, and I hope that greater. enthusiasm than the Attorney hon. members in this House will be able General was doing it to-night. I regret to give consideration here to those that the Hon. :Mr. Jl.fcGirr was so carried clauses which were not debated in the t~way that he reminded the :Minister of other House. This. is a bill with nearly the fact, and stopped what I believe was 300 clauses, and in regard to many o~ 3691 _[COUNCIL:~ _ 'Jlransport JJill. its .provisions the elected repr~en.tati:ves I drohrre, to:o, that there is .no .bon. mem did not ·have the opportunity :to deal with ber of this House .who understands it, them in detail. I hope this House will except the Attorney-General,. and 1 .am be able to give .full consiUeration ro them, only exee11ting· liim becau~ .J presume and that those hon. members who will that before ·commencing .his ·>:peel1h he liave the opportunity of looliing through knew what .he •was ·going to talk :about. the speeches of the Attorney-General Here we are, practically on the ·tag end and of Mr. Holman, K.C., may find 'in of the•existence•of this Parliament, with them much food for thought. I hope this House, by the action of the :Mini- · that the bill will be dealt with on its ster's own Government, a doomed House merits, and in a non-party spirit, as far ~duomed so Jar a;; the actions of :this as that may be :possible. I regret a~~in Legislature go, ·but .going to be sa:ved that I did not have the opportunity of by the ,electors-yet •we are .asked 1:0 postponing my remarks on the second carry :out a task which i;; beyond the reading, but I hope that the result of capacity of any hon. memhe;· of this . this legislation; whatever it may be, will Chamber. After ·having ·sat for ·hours . be in the best interests of the State. in this atmosphere, listening to the :Min The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: ister's second-.reading speech, he re]uscs I suppose it would be useless for me to grant an .adjournment which w1ll to ask the Attorney-General to adjourn enable me to speak on the subject ·with the debate. It is a strain to sit here in justice to myself and to this assembly. the atmosphere of this House. After I will do my best, but that•best, I .know; struggling manfu Uy all day to under will not be what might be expected if stand this bill I feel it a great strain one had the time ·to ·prepare and master to have to speak to-night. Will the Min the -subject. Ii is li'ke giving a child a ister consent to an adjournment~ cop.f of the Scriptures and telling him The Ron. F. S. BoYCE: I told the Hon. to be immediately prepared to be exam· Mr. Coates only ten minutes ago that I ined upon any part of it from Genesi!! wanted to go on with the debate until to Revelation. Do hon. members real half-past 9 o'clock. I can hardly oblige ise that they ,are asked to do that? And the Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers ·in so this is a Chamber of deliberation. The short a period after by granting him ~!inister refuses ·a reasonable request for what I refused the Ron.. :Mr. Coates! an .adjournment. I listened as long .as. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: I could to the 111inister's speech, until :Well, I did not expect anything else. I I became physically exhausted. That 'do not expect much from those who per was not his 'fault; it is my own fault, haps might be expected to show me some possibly because of advancing age. I courtesy. listened as long as I could, in order to The Hon. F. S. BoYCE : If the Hon. get the gi~t of his arguments, and I was Sir Joseph Carruthers agrees to wait, I very much educated by what he said. will consent to give him the adjourn I have a fairly large knowledge of the ment of the debate at, say, a quarter past world. I have not passed through this nine! vale of trouble without learning some The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: thing, seeing something, and knowing"' Then I will go on, because it would something, and I will tell the :Minister be merely untair ·to someone else a few things that struck me whilst lis to have to stay and speak in this tening to his speeah. atmosphere. We have here a bill of 171 The Hon. F. S. BoYCE: Did the pages, which contains 286 clauses, 1,000 hon. member say he was physically ex subclauses, ·and a couple of sche hausted~ dules. I got a copy of this bill The Hon. ·Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : to-day. I declare, without any fear Yes, compared with what I w~u1d be- ~:f contradiction, that no hon. member If I had a little rest I would give tho of this House, except, perhapR the Attor House some idea of what I could do and j);ey-General, has read this bill through. say; . . :.ifnzac Jfemorial. [13 .M:·AU., 1030] Q:U~t"ions a1~d.Answers. 36!1vJ 'The Hon. ·F. S. :BOYCE: I .was.going .Answer,-The-desircd informationwill · to give the hon. member ·the opportunity be laid upon the table of the House in · :to Test. The hon. ·member ·may have the form of .a return. .the adjou;nment if he 'likes. The Hon. Sir JosEPH 0Annunu:m;: I ACTING JUDGES. would like! Mr. co.NNOLLY asked the A.TTORNEY The lion. F~ S. BOYCE: Then 1 eon GENERAL,-With •renmmce to the answer sent with pleasure to the application Jf given to·Question No. 16, Questions anil the · hon. member 'for an adjourmrlent Answers No. 49 of 4th instant, respecting until the next sitting day, on the under commissions as acting judges, will he standing that he is·physically exhausted. give the House'the infonnation asked for Debate adjourned. in portions (·1) and (2) of that question, el,iminating portion (3), in ·view of the ANZAC MEMORIAL BUILDING. necesshy for considerabl~ time which Report of Select Committee presented would be spent in preparation of a reply .by the Hon. George Black. thereto? House adjourned at 8.36 p.m. until Answer,-H) 'Eleven. (2) Messrs. A. uoxt Tu-esday. Thomson, A. V. :Maxwell, H. F. Markell, E. M. Stephen, J.. P. G. Sheridan, F. A. A. Russell, H. E. Manning, J. Jll~ Hammond, S. Mack, King's Counsellors, and Messrs. N. de H. Rowland and N. G. Pilcher, Barristers-at-Law. Thursday, 13 March, lf/30. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. I Printed Questions and Answers-Questions \\ithout Notice-Third Readings- Justices (Amendment) SYDNEY HARBOUR BRIDGE: Bill-Cooma Bega h;specLorate Scholarships Bill SAFETY NETS. Police 01i~nces Amaid per annum~ quite satisfied with the reRult. of th,e