OCTOBER 2020 PRINT ISSUE

BUSINESS LUNCH with Roland Frasier Podcast

What a month October was, and what a year.

As we’ve been nearing the Presidential election and seeing Covid cases on the rise worldwide, I’ve appreciated talking to some inspiring entrepreneurs and hearing how they respond, evolve, find the silver lining, and grow! I think it’s important to focus on timeless strategies that work in good times and bad, and you’ll hear lots of that in this month’s episodes.

I agree 100% with the attitude Roslyn and Michael Rozbruch are taking, “It’s really important to open yourself to change so that you can pivot and ask if this isn’t working, what do we need to do to make it work?”.

I hope this podcast helps you navigate these strange waters.

Here’s to your success!

Thank you for listening,

– Roland Frasier

P.S. Visit our website to stream the episodes, and you can also sign up for show notes and highlights, so you never miss a thing!

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1 Episode 203 Lessons in Confidence and the Value of a Great Suit

Do YOU need a personal stylist?

In this slightly different episode of Business Lunch With Roland Frasier, two high-performance stylists discuss with Dawn Melon how to look and feel the part.

Brent Lob and Dawn Melon have client lists that read like a “who’s who,” Darren Clarke: This is your seat at and there’s a reason for that. Their the table. Welcome to Business Lunch, clients understand that you can buy this is Darren Clarke, the producer confidence. of the show and today, we have something a bit different, with Roland From Episode 203, you’ll learn about: Frasier speaking with not one, but two entrepreneurs who operate in the • When it’s right for someone to same field and partner together. consider a personal stylist. We have high-performance stylist, • The strategies Dawn and Brent use Dawn Melon, and Brent Lob of Q to build trust with their clients. Clothiers. These guys have client lists • The value of a long-term approach that read like a who’s who, and they with every customer. talk today about your image’s role in how you feel, how you’re perceived, And more! and ultimately, in your success.

“If you cannot take and show these So, let’s get started. But you know I’m individuals the confidence that you going to say it, please be sure to hit know exactly what you’re doing, you’re that subscribe button and consider going to lose.” – Brent Lob writing us a review on Apple Podcasts.

••• Roland Frasier: Hey, everybody. Roland Frasier here. Welcome to Business Lunch. I’m excited to have on the show today Brent Lob from Q Custom Clothing and Dawn Melon from the Savvy Stylist. Good alliterative name there for that business, I love it. 2 And this is all about fashion, one of pair of sweatpants, that’s it. And so, I my and my wife’s favorite things, and thought, how prophetic that now here I know Deanna’s crazy about fashion we are wearing sweatpants? I’m not, as well. And Dawn, you have the exact by the way. Interestingly enough, even same name as my wife. So, that’s kind though we are communicating like of fun. this because of the pandemic, there is a psychological condition that takes Dawn Melon: Cool. place when you wear clothes that are appropriate for your setting. Roland Frasier: My wife’s name is Dawn as well. So, let’s just start out Roland Frasier: Sure. and tell everybody who you two are and kind of what you do, and then we’ll Dawn Melon: And even as it relates to dive into the rest of the show. Let’s Zoom calls and podcasts. So there is a start with Dawn. professor at Knox University in Illinois, and he’s done this study on this. But Dawn Melon: Well, Roland, first of all, he says, “Your body, your mind has it’s very nice to meet you. a psychological physical response to what you’re wearing, and when you Roland Frasier: Wonderful to meet look like you’re supposed to, be in you. charge and be knowledgeable and be credible, then you are.” And so, my Dawn Melon: And what do I do? My point is scrap the sweatpants and put job literally is to make people look on something that makes you feel and good. It’s as simple as that. And how makes you project the image that you do I do that? I learn about them, about want, even though it’s via Zoom. their business, about the image that they need to portray, and I help them Roland Frasier: I like it, I like it. Brent, make wardrobe choices that project what’s your take on that? the image that they need to show to their clients, constituents, whomever it Brent Lob: I agree. I mean, I think is that they need to impress. people today, the psychological advantage of dressing appropriately Roland Frasier: I love it. So, how are for meetings, anything that we do gives things changing now? Everyone I know you a balance and an edge at that is wearing sweatpants and pajama point. If you go in and you obviously bottoms while they’re doing all their feel good, you look good, you present virtual things. What’s going on for you good. I mean, that’s what basically my during the closure of the world? business is all about. Taking people from point A to point B, and making Dawn Melon: Karl Lagerfeld once sure they’re properly dressed. said that it is a sign that a woman has given up on life when she puts on a Roland Frasier: Okay, cool. 3 And just so I can get kind of... because this. But the truth is, it was luck, pure I know you guys work together, so luck. I was selling a private label line everybody understands. So Dawn, is it of clothing. I was in actually a Bible basically you have kind of an interview study class with a woman who was so with somebody, you dive into their beautiful, Roland, she walked in the business, their persona, the brand and room the first day, I thought... Oh, she say, “These are the kinds of things,” was like the sun. I couldn’t look at her maybe, “These are the colors, these directly, because I thought my eyes are the types of styles you want,” and might be blinded for the rest of my life. then Brent, you make those into reality through the custom shop, or how do Roland Frasier: Wow! you guys work together? Dawn Melon: And somebody Dawn Melon: So to answer your whispered to me and said, “That’s question, it’s really a twofold answer. Emmett’s wife.” And I said, “Really?” We have clients that we work with And she said, “Yes.” And she looked at together, and in those cases, that is me and she goes, “You don’t know who absolutely the process that we go Emmett is, do you?” And I said, “Yes, I through. Exactly what you described. do. He has a beautiful wife, that’s who In other cases, I may have a client he is.” So, she asked me to help her separate from Brent, and I will go start dressing her, because she said, through the same sort of process, but and this is one of those moments that it may be a woman. And Brent is more lives on forever, but at the time you on the menswear side. don’t know how prophetic it is.

Roland Frasier: Brent is not a woman, She said, “My husband is going to be yes. on this program in LA, and I’m going to have to go and support him until Dawn Melon: Yes. Then what I do is he gets voted off the program. Do I reel in that woman’s husband for you think that you could help me Brent. So, it all works together. with that?” And I said, “Sure, what’s the program?” And she said, “Oh, you Darren Clarke: We love it, don’t we? probably never heard of it. It’s called Dancing with the Stars.” And I said, Roland Frasier: I love it. So, how “Sure. I can help you.” And from that did you get started in styling people, point on, it was Pat and Emmitt were Dawn? my clients for a very long time.

Dawn Melon: Oh my gosh, that is the Roland Frasier: Nice, this is Emmitt million-dollar question. What I’d like Smith from the Cowboys? to tell you is some fabulous formula that could be repeated by all of your Dawn Melon: Yes. viewers, so that they too could get into 4 Brent Lob: Yeah, absolutely. And the ironic thing is, the first job I ever had was selling men’s clothes. Dawn Melon: And that’s how I met I was in high school, but I’ve always Brent. enjoyed this. And then, from there, I went to work for various clothing Roland Frasier: Nice. Okay, oh, companies. you met Brent through the show or through the Smiths? One that was Bigsby & Kruthers in Chicago. One of the largest, probably Dawn Melon: Through Emmitt, in the 80s, one of the largest, most because he had been working with popular clothing stores. People like Emmitt prior to my coming on board. Michael Jordan were partners, and things of that nature. So, I was in Roland Frasier: Oh, okay. Awesome. Chicago at the time, managing multiple And so, Pat said, “Hey, you should stores for them. And then I came to probably talk to Brent,” is that kind of Dallas, and I’ve loved it. I mean, Roland, how that happened? I’ve done this so long. It’s one of the cliché things that people say, I’ve never Dawn Melon: Well actually, Pat said worked a day in my life. I literally love to me, “I think you should style my what I do. husband,” and I had never worked with men before. I’d always been on Roland Frasier: That’s so cool. the women’s side, and I kept avoiding it, avoiding it. And then finally, Brent Brent Lob: And I tell people after all came along and I said, “Brent, I would these years, travel and working and like to do this but I have no idea what so forth, I play Santa Claus 365 days a I’m doing,” and Brent said, “Come on year. So, I’m one of those guys that’s over, I’ll teach you everything I know.” been blessed to really have a career that I’ve loved. And so, I started off Brent Lob: Come on over, baby. years ago doing that, and I did get one of the big breaking points for me, Dawn Melon: Come on over, to the almost 30 years ago was to get Michael dark side. And that is what really got Irvin came in our store, the store that me started. Brent literally taught me I was working for at the time. And so, everything I know about menswear. Michael back in the day, with the Dallas Cowboys, prominently known for his Roland Frasier: That’s super cool. attire, I had the pleasure of doing it. Well, so Brent, how did you get into Which basically snowballed to Emmitt, this interesting line of work? Troy Aikman, Darren Woodson, 20 or 30 of the Dallas Cowboys, and as they Brent Lob: You know what? I started progressively went to different teams, I this almost 40 years ago, I hate to say went to teams with them. that. I’ve been doing this a long time. 5 So, that was really the fun part. I mean, that’s a good word. years ago, when ball players were just starting to really take pride in their Roland Frasier: Okay, I like it. attire, I had 300 NFL players that I was clothing throughout the country. So, Dawn Melon: The first thing, I’m I was on planes all the time and doing going to step back a little it and make all that, and just had some fun, with a statement that may clarify what I’m some very elite ball players and CEOs. trying to get across. So, I’ve really enjoyed this, I still do. And that’s basically my background. Roland Frasier: Perfect.

Roland Frasier: I love it. Dawn Melon: And that is the word trust. Trust is the number one most Brent Lob: My business partner and important thing that I can deliver, that I, in Q Custom Clothing, we have eight I can ensure in a relationship. And that stores now throughout the country, so goes with my clients, that goes with that’s been fun. It’s also been with this Brent, my constituents, my partners. pandemic, has been a little challenging, First, I have to gain their trust. And because all of our stores have been gaining their trust sometimes means closed, right now. Actually, we will taking the style that they have created open back up. We’ve got the approval for themselves, good or bad, and for all the stores coming up this tweaking it just a little bit. Monday. Just a little bit, so that they see number Roland Frasier: Okay. Great. one, that I’m not coming in and saying, Congratulations, that’s awesome. So, “Oh, we’re ripping out the whole closet. Dawn, what would you say are the You need a whole new wardrobe,” most important things that a woman and build trust with them by taking should be thinking about with respect what they have that’s good and to her personal style? building on it, and then making minor changes. And as those minor changes Dawn Melon: Roland, the most take place, what happens? They get important thing for a woman to recognition. “Oh, you look great. Oh, consider when she is trying to... are you doing something different?” I don’t want to say, “Adopt a new style,” because I never want to push Roland Frasier: Right. somebody into something that they’re not comfortable with. Dawn Melon: The more that they hear that, the more that they come to trust Roland Frasier: How about, “Discover me and the more intoxicating that her style?” becomes. “I want more of that, I want more people to say those things,” and Dawn Melon: Yes. Discover her style, then we work on their individual look. 6 Roland Frasier: I love that. Brent Lob: ... great marketing. I mean, Tom Ford, unbelievable marketing. Dawn Melon: So, there is no formula And they spend millions of dollars to for, “Okay, do this, do that. Do this.” market themselves, and the difference Because every person is so different, between my quality, I have the exact right? It’s personal styling, so it’s a very same quality that they carry. And unique situation. But what’s not unique so, that there, it sets me in different is the trust that has to be there. standards, with those particular companies. Roland Frasier: Okay, I like that. I like that. So, what I bring to the table is just basically for me, quality fit. I mean, you’ve got to be able to master your product, and you’ve got to be able to... I’ve seen so many different body types “ in the 40 years that I’ve been doing It’s personal styling, so it’s a very this. And knowing how to look at you, unique situation. But what’s not Roland, and say, “What are your wants? unique is the trust that has to What are your needs? Do you want be there. something that’s a tighter fit? Do you want something that’s a little bit more – Dawn Melon relaxed?” And so on and so forth, find out their wants/needs. And at that point, fulfill them. Dawn Melon: And that’s the reason Brent and I work together so well. And a lot of people that I work with, I travel to. Michael Burnoff, for example. Roland Frasier: So, Brent, tell me, I mean, I’m out in Scottsdale quite a bit, what’s the difference between say, because Michael loves my service. He a Brioni or a Tom Ford suit and a trusts me, he knows the passion in my Q Custom suit? What would draw business and the integrity of it all. And somebody to one or the other? What I think that sets it apart. I mean, you go are the advantages and disadvantages into these big box stores, and you have of each? great product, but you have to rely on the individual that you can have a Brent Lob: I think when it comes to relationship with. brand awareness, that’s key. Tom Ford, Brioni are synonymous with high Roland Frasier: Right, I love it. So, quality. Do I think sometimes they’re Dawn, are there five pillar pieces, the best? No, I don’t. They have a great or key things that women should product- think about as kind of defining their wardrobe, or the bedrock of it that Roland Frasier: And good marketing. they really want to focus on when 7 they get started thinking about this Roland Frasier: So, Brent, as far as kind of stuff? when you get into custom clothing for men, how does one decide between Dawn Melon: Yes, absolutely. The say, Q Custom and the Bond Street classics. So, people say that all the folks in London and the people in time, right? And what are the classics? Tokyo and all of the other options that So for a woman, it’s really a small might be available to the sartorially group of pieces that will never go out curious? of style, and you purchase them in colors that will never go out of style, Brent Lob: For me, 100% of my and they’re super exciting pieces. I business is built on referrals. I don’t mean, hold the presses. They are like a prospect. I don’t do all those things white blouse, and a great white t-shirt, that a lot of people do. It’s Michael and a great black blazer, and a great Burnoff turning me on to you. It’s all pair of khaki pants, and denim. And referral based, because at that point, pumps, and flats, I mean- that individual knows what they’re going to gain from me. Roland Frasier: Don’t leave out my handbags, now. You’ve got to have a They’re going to get all the things we good handbag. talked about earlier, the trust factor, integrity. But the fit, we have an Dawn Melon: Right? Got to have nice abundance of an amount of fabrics, handbags, a little black dress, and so we can select from... and we’ve also you’re ready to roll. These are the got different qualities of craftsmanship pieces that everyone has to have in with also different price points. their wardrobe. And the only time that you replace them is when they become So, there’s nobody that I truly can’t worn out, and then you just rotate. work with, but what they do get is somebody that’s got 40 years of Roland Frasier: And then- experience and really has taken the industry and really perfected my art Dawn Melon: And then after that, you and my craft. And that is basically do the capsule wardrobe, right? So using a tape and making sure that I what is the capsule wardrobe? That is know how to tape somebody. And the basically just taking a finite amount of bottom line is the result, the final fit. items, of pieces, and selecting those That to me is the key. pieces in colors and in patterns that you can mix and match. So, after you Roland Frasier: Yeah, I totally take your classics and your capsule agree. So, Dawn, you talked about wardrobe and you mix it together, the incremental trust building, which number of possibilities are literally I think is good. Did you want to endless. comment on that one as well?

8 Dawn Melon: I just wanted to say that Brent, he sells two products. He sells a tangible product, and he sells an intangible product. And the intangible “ product that he sells is as valuable My clients are my referral cards. as the tangible product. There is no They’re my business cards, one, and I can say this with absolute conviction, no one who provides the because people see my clients level of service, and who has the and say, “I want a piece of that. integrity that this man does. I want what she has.” – Dawn Melon Brent Lob: Thank you!

Dawn Melon: That is why he’s been in And there’s the list, so- the business for 40 years, and why his client list reads like a who’s who. Roland Frasier: Do you find that any of your clients are hesitant to Roland Frasier: So, we talked about acknowledge that they are working incremental trust, and Brent just with a stylist, because they want mentioned that referrals and word of people to think that they’ve done all mouth was important. I’m assuming this themselves? that’s true for you too, right? That most of your business comes from referral? Dawn Melon: No. No. But you know what I have found? Dawn Melon: Yes, absolutely. Roland Frasier: What’s that? Roland Frasier: So if you want to dial up the referrals that you’re getting, Dawn Melon: I have found that what have you found the best ways to sometimes, people are hesitant to... generate referrals, besides providing have been hesitant to give my name an amazingly high-quality service? to a friend because they want to keep this secret, or this secret weapon they Dawn Melon: Interestingly enough, have to themselves. I had that happen what typically happens is that my to me one time, and the way it came clients are my referral cards. They’re about was she said to me, “Oh, by the my business cards, because people way, I just want you to know that I’ve see my clients and say, “I want a piece had several friends who’ve asked me of that. I want what she has.” And for your number, but I’m not giving it that’s how it happens. If I wanted to them. Because you are mine.” Okay, to dial it up, as you were asking, all then. Fine. I would need to do is say, “Susan, is there anybody you know who might be Roland Frasier: That’s funny, I love interested in my services?” it. Now, one of the challenges Brent, 9 I imagine that both of you have had are, and tape that person, most of through the years is scaling, because the people today look like deer in the people like you. They bond with you, headlights. I mean, they’re afraid, they and you are somewhat the product don’t know. and the brand. You’ve got I think you said eight stores now. How have you And portraying that confidence when transcended that dependence on, you take out a tape today, it basically “They can only have you?” takes you to a different level. I might get with you, and if I’m not a confident Brent Lob: I mean, I’m in a position salesperson, and I fly out to meet right now with eight stores, and been you and you go, “This guy is not real doing this for so long, I want to be able convincing he knows what he does.” to take some of these younger people Your buying skill could go from five today, if this makes sense, and mentor suits to one, just like that, by pulling them. Because there’s not a lot of out a tape. So, if you cannot take and people today that take the pride and show these individuals the confidence take the time to master their craft. that you know exactly what you’re doing, you’re going to lose... You’re And so, as I get older, I mean, I’m going to have to resell that garment not going to be doing this forever, when it comes in. but I want other people to have and hopefully embrace what I have. My Roland Frasier: Right. goal right now is to embrace what I have, but now try and start mentoring Brent Lob: Because six weeks later other people in our stores to really when the garment comes in and the master this. It’s really interesting guy puts it on, Roland, there is no today that no matter what business, better feeling in the world. And this is what defines you to be different than why I say, “I play Santa Claus.” To put everybody else? And I think it’s taking a suit on a guy and go, “Whoa, this is the time to really perfect what you do absolutely what I’ve been looking for.” and become the best. In my business, I And that takes time and it takes... You look at it this way. have to have a talent. You’re like an artist. Guys walk into the store, and anybody can greet somebody in a store today. Roland Frasier:Right. You walk into one of our stores, “How you doing?” You introduce yourself. Brent Lob: So, take it in, and master So on, so forth. “What might you be what you’re doing and the rewards will looking for?” I’m going to go over here be phenomenal. and look at a shirt, whatever. But when you take that individual to the mirror, Roland Frasier: It does, 100%. Thank is what I call when you’re really getting you, I love that. So Dawn, when is out to mat to show what your talents it right for someone to consider 10 having a personal stylist? What level and put together everything that they of investment in both clothing and need for the week. And all they do is whatever service that might be, what pick, pick, and go. part of their life or career, or just if you’re talking to somebody and they Roland Frasier: Nice. I like that. So, at say, “I just don’t know if I need one,” what level of investment in the fashion when is it right, ideally? and the stylists, where does that ideally begin for someone? Obviously, you can Dawn Melon: It has to do with what go up as high as you want but when that person does for a living, and somebody’s thinking, “I really want to whether or not what they do for do this. I’m not sure. How much should a living is something that is highly I be thinking I’m going to invest in my dependent on having the image, clothing,” from the advice and the an image to go along with it. So for advice combined? example, if I’m a chef and I’m wearing a chef’s coat all day long and I’m in a Dawn Melon: So, one of the things kitchen, do you need a personal stylist? that I am very adamant about is that Probably not. I do not take a commission from the clothes that I sell or the clothes that Roland Frasier: Although, some of I recommend. And I bring that up those chefs- because I charge an hourly fee. Many stylists charge an hourly fee, and then Dawn Melon: If you’re a celebrity chef they also get commission from the and you’re going on television, then clothes that they sell. So in that regard, yes. You need a stylist. the investment in the clothing is going to be higher for the individual. Roland Frasier: Right. Roland Frasier: Sure, sure. Dawn Melon: If you’re somebody who is interacting with the public, if you’re Dawn Melon: Because why? Because a public figure, if you are a corporate the incentive there is for the stylist executive, if you’re a salesperson, to recommend a higher price point anybody who needs to really look the garment, but I don’t work like that. So, I part is really somebody who needs a would say that the ratio or the amount stylist. And that can be something as of money that is required in terms of simple as I create a wardrobe for you an investment with the clothing with for one season, tell you how it works, me is probably less, because I don’t and leave you to your own devices care if I found this fabulous garment at until the next season. Or that can Neiman Marcus Last Call 40% off, or if I be like some of my clients, who are got it at Tom Ford. corporate executives, CEOs of large corporations, and I literally get their Roland Frasier: For the people who itinerary at the beginning of the week are listening, just a guideline. It’s like, 11 should I be thinking this makes sense Dawn Melon: And you get the small if I’m going to spend $1,000, $5,000, village of admirers, people who stand $10,000, $50,000? What level, just and walk with you every step of the so people are thinking... combined way that say, “You look fabulous. with your services, and enough that it Oh my gosh, where did you get that would make it make sense, because blouse?” Yeah, comes with that. if you say, “You should have this, this, and this,” and you’re making Roland Frasier: I love it. Brent, same fantastic recommendations, but they question. As far as for a gentleman just don’t really have what it takes. that comes to you, and let’s talk both And I’m trying to kind of help people on... because you have a retail shop who are listening or watching get that and a custom shop, right? A branded threshold, when is it good to reach out shop, and- to someone who does what you do? Dawn Melon: Yep. Dawn Melon: Yes. I think a minimum of $10,000. Roland Frasier: Okay. So, for a gentleman who wants to come in, what Roland Frasier: Okay, great. does he need? Let’s say that he’s just like, “Man, I don’t know style stuff. I’m Dawn Melon: And the reason that interested in looking better, or Dawn I say that is because I’m assuming referred me, or my spouse said I need that this is somebody who maybe to come to you,” or whatever, what doesn’t have a closet that has a lot of ideally do they have to get started with salvageable items in it, and somebody in terms of how many pieces, suits, who is going to need a new wardrobe and budget, both for custom and for for at least that season, and then we say, retail? Just to kind of... to do it move onto the next. right?

Roland Frasier: Plus, it’s really fun to Roland Frasier: That’s a great have a new wardrobe. I mean, let’s just question, because I basically have a be honest. store, and then I also have a category where I travel. So they’re basically Dawn Melon: Super fun. Yeah. two different companies. So, let’s say if you come into the store, I’ve got Roland Frasier: And I’m assuming a lot of young guys today that are that includes a free Birkin with every very fashionable that come and say, single deal, right? When I come in, and “Brent, I want you to fit me for a suit, I invest that $10,000, I get the clothes what does the suit cost?” Well, my and then the complimentary Birkin, starting price point is $1,500. So, if I and then your services? That’s fair to have to meet you at the store, I have ask, right? no problem doing a $1,500 suit, shirts, whatever you want. 12 I’ll ask you straight up, “What is your of mine and you said, “Brent, I need budget?” Because that’s the most a suit,” and you’re buying a $3,500 critical thing that you could ask suit from me, I will come fit it, due to somebody. Roland, if you and I get the fact that it’s an expensive suit and together, and you and I are buying there are little things that I see that suits, one of the first things coming I want to make that’s perfect. If I ship out of my mouth is, “Give me an idea you a suit and you get a collar roll on what your comfort level is for a suit, it, you’re not going to know. But if I what your budget is, and then let come to you and I see that collar roll, me go back with that budget and try I’m going to take it and fix it. But if I and maximize what I can bring to the have to do an alteration, I’ll take it back table.” So, if you go into the store, you to my tailors, where I have six master can come in for $1,500, buy a suit, get tailors. And then at that point, I’ll put a shirt. You’re out the door for $2,000 them in a big [inaudible 00:31:40] with everything. But if I am going to stand-up box and ship them back. travel to you and I’ve got to go to New York to meet you and I’ve got a day of Roland Frasier: Okay, I love it. travel, airfare, and everything else, you and I are going to have a conversation Brent Lob: Like say for you, just about this and say, “Hey, I’m going to because you’re long distance, doesn’t be incurring some expenses plus a full mean I can’t service you. Because if day of travel. What is your budget?” you call me later on and say, “Brent, I’ve gained 10 pounds,” your suit is not going to fit you the way it should. I’ll get on a plane and fly out, and we’ll “ take care of the alterations. I’ll ask you straight up, “What Roland Frasier: I think what would is your budget?” Because that’s be more likely the case is that the suit the most critical thing that you shrunk in my closet because of the humidity of California. could ask somebody. – Brent Lob Brent Lob: It’s moist out there in California.

And most of the time, if I do travel Roland Frasier: I don’t know what someplace, it’s going to be like Dawn you’re talking about, this gaining 10 said. It’s pretty much a two or three pounds thing. or four-suit outfit perimeter guideline for that, and the individual knows Brent Lob: Gaining or losing, let’s put it that. They’re not going to call me up that way. and say, “Brent, come out for a suit.” But I will say this, if you were a client Roland Frasier: I’m just kidding. 13 Brent Lob: But here’s the interesting thing into a fall forest with trees and fact about that. A lot of my business leaves on the ground. It was amazing, is guys out of town like you. So you to see how that went. But yeah, you’re have to bring your A game, every time. absolutely right. It’s got to be made Because you go out where you are, easy. And so, I have lots of friends there’s a lot of other guys who can do who are just like, “Look, help make it what I do. But the only saving grace for as painless and as quick as possible,” me is that you and I have a personal right? relationship. And you know what my expectations are and I know what Brent Lob: That’s the key. That’s the yours are, and we meet them. And it’s absolute key today, making it painless, not a one-year deal and a one-time. It’s and just taking the pressure of it. a long-term deal, and that’s where- That’s what it’s all about.

Roland Frasier: Love it. Roland Frasier: Okay, two final questions. Same question for each Brent Lob: ... getting back to what you of you. Dawn, tell me, what are the said earlier also, a lot of guys today top three changes that a woman don’t like to shop. And that’s a big part could make to her style that would of it. So they look at guys like me to really have the greatest impact on her say, “Hey, can you help me with this?” appearance and presence? And like I said, if it’s a kid in the store or anybody, they want to buy a new Dawn Melon: Number one, to suit, that’s fine. If it’s somebody long understand her body type. There are distance, that’s also fine. I don’t mind so many people who don’t know their getting on a plane and doing it. body type, don’t recognize it, and in order to have the most flattering outfit, Roland Frasier: That’s great. Yeah, you have to know what your body type you’re absolutely right. I think is, and you have to dress for it. interestingly enough, I’d say probably 85 to 90% of my friends do not like Roland Frasier: And How does one go to shop, for men or women. I am an about figuring that out? absolutely passionate shopper for both men and women, and so we go to New Dawn Melon: There’s literally a York and Paris and- process for figuring it out technically. But just generally speaking, body Brent Lob: Oh, beautiful. types are... If you have for example, let’s say you’re a woman who has Roland Frasier: ... Milan, and in broad shoulders, you kind of carry particular also, I was really lucky to get your weight in your tummy. So, we to one of Karl Lagerfeld’s last shows consider that to be an apple shape, in Paris, where they turned... at the or somebody like that, who has a Grand Musee, they turned the whole smaller shoulder, but carries her 14 weight in her middle, we would you that I subscribe to the fall/winter/ consider that a pear. spring, but I don’t.

Roland Frasier: Pear, right. Roland Frasier: Yeah, that’s all right.

Dawn Melon: And the ideal situation Dawn Melon: ... what I tell people is that you always want to get to the is, “If you’re trying to figure out what ultimate body shape, which is the your colors are, pay attention to the hourglass. reactions that you receive when you wear certain colors.” So, if you wear Roland Frasier: Right. blue, and you see that people are complimenting you, then blue is a Dawn Melon: So, what you do is you good color for you. If every time you take and you choose clothes that wear yellow, which by the way, only create a waist for you, if you are a pear, 2% of the population can effectively for example. So, it’s knowing what your wear yellow, and you receive no body type is, and taking the clothes compliments, cut it out! or selecting clothes that complement your body type, in getting to that Roland Frasier: Right, love it. So, a ultimate hourglass figure. The second feedback color guide. I love that. thing is knowing what your colors are. Knowing what colors are appropriate Dawn Melon: Yes, yes. It’s very for your skin type, for your hair color. interactive. It’s like as you said, being an artist, you know? But at the same Often times, I have clients who I’ve time, I will say that when I do start worked with for a long time and as working with people, I come up with a they celebrate more birthdays, their palette for them based on what I think skin tone changes, their hair color and that’s how we get to creating the changes, yet, they’re still wearing the capsule collection, because it’s based colors that they wore when their hair on that color palette. was brown and now it’s going gray. So, we need to be really cognizant of that. Roland Frasier: Love it. So, that I think is the second thing. Dawn Melon: And then the third Roland Frasier: Okay, great. And do thing is really something that is not a you like the fall/winter/spring kind tangible item. It is the most important of thing? Or is there a color palette thing though that a woman can wear, guidance thing that you suggest for and that is confidence. And when people? Obviously, you’ve got the skill you take those things that I’ve just to do all the nuances, but just kind of a described, when you help a woman broad strokes color guide? or a man wear clothes that are appropriate, that are flattering, that Dawn Melon: I wish that I could tell portray the image that that person 15 wants to portray, inherently, that like you and you put on a suit and confidence comes through. And that is you’ve got a smile on your face, you’re the coup de grace, right? going to exude that all day. And your confidence level is going to skyrocket. Roland Frasier: I love that. I love those And the first time that you get a answers. Those are just absolutely compliment, you know you’ve done the fantastic. It’s really to me the most right thing. What I like about working impactful things, and the confidence is with young guys today, the first suit so huge. And if the other two help you guy, is the first time they put on that get the third, and then you’ve got that, suit and they go around with friends, then yeah, that’s really great. Okay, and their friends go, “Whoa, guess who Brent, same question. Tough act to looks great?” follow here. There’s that confidence level. It Brent Lob: So, I’m going to go on a takes you from social events to couple things that Dawn said, body the workplace, to formal events, to types to me are important. But I whatever it is. And I want my guys to do think by asking the appropriate walk in and look like a million bucks. questions, and having the ability to So to me, body types don’t matter, custom that product for them, I look at because we can always find something this a little differently, though. I want to fit around that. Engaging and guys to get reactions. It’s like what injecting colors, and style, no problem. Dawn said at the end, I hope what I do will get you reactions from people I have a gentleman in Chicago, I was on the streets or whoever, which then one of the owners of Bigsby & Kruthers will build... You’ll get confidence. I like back in the day. And the gentleman color. I mean, I like guys to go in and was a very large guy. He probably I like to put together unusual things, weighed 350, 400 pounds. And the unless they’re conservative. Finding out gentleman wore double-breasted suits, what their wants and needs are, but I every day. But you know what? That like guys to stand out. double-breasted suit was impeccably fit, so when he walked into a room, I mean, I like red coats, I like pink coats, you’re not supposed to be a double- I like bold pinstripe suits. Things of breasted guy when you’re that big. He that nature, once it’s perfectly tailored walked in and it was impeccable and to that individual, they know they he felt comfortable in it. Once you look good, they’ll get reaction from have something that fits you, your self- it. So, we can fulfill those needs doing esteem goes up. the basic blue suit and things of that nature. But guys know me for my Roland Frasier: Yeah. Yeah, it really creativity, and putting unusual things does. together, that I kind of have this look. And so, that’s key for me. If I get a guy Brent Lob: 100%. 16 Roland Frasier: There’s nothing like would like to move forward and chat the feeling. with you about their-

Brent Lob: I can’t wait to get in with Brent Lob: Do you know what I would you someday, and do our thing. love? A personal phone call. Call me. My number is 214-912-4884. My email Roland Frasier: I’m in, absolutely. Well, is Brent Lob, L-O-B @Me.com. So either speaking of getting with you guys, tell which way, I love to talk to guys. So, us what is the best way for people to if you call me up, feel free. I’ll answer get ahold of you. Dawn, how would the phone, you can actually go to our people reach out who are interested website at Q Custom Clothiers and in talking to you about their personal look at our website, look at some of style? the design work we’ve done and kind of get a feel for our stores. Dawn Melon: Well, I have a website, and it’s called appropriately Dawn The Roland Frasier: Perfect. Thank you Savvy Stylist. guys so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show and Roland Frasier: Dawn The Savvy look forward to meeting you both in Stylist, okay, great. .com? person.

Dawn Melon: Yes, .com. And then Brent Lob: And thank you very much, Instagram, @DawnTheSavvyStylist. Roland, for doing this. Facebook, Dawn Melon, The Savvy Stylist. Dawn Melon: Thank you, Roland. It was fabulous. Fabulous. Roland Frasier: Okay, great. Love that. And would they just message you Darren Clarke: You’ve been listening from there if they were interested in to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. knowing more? There’s ways for them If you’re enjoying the show, let us know to get ahold of you there? by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information, go to Dawn Melon: Yes, absolutely. BusinessLunchPodcast.com. Thank you for listening. Roland Frasier: Okay, any podcasts or anything like that that you have? •••

Dawn Melon: Yes. This one, right now. Want the full episode? Want to subscribe to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier? Roland Frasier: Okay, great. I love it. Awesome. Brent, how about you? Click here! What’s the best way for folks to get ahold of you if they would... when they 17 Episode 204 A Four-Step Strategy for Writing Copy That Always ‘Works’

What if your copy (and your conversations) always RESONATED?

After hitting 200 episodes and 1 with Craig Clemens Million downloads, we had a look back at some of our most loved and most listened to episodes. Our Craig Clemens episodes are always Darren Clarke: We hit the 200 episode memorable. Why? Probably because mark last month and surpassed 1 Copywriting crosses over into so much million download this summer. So of what we do as Entrepreneurs. we’ve had a look back at some of our most listened to episodes. Craig Clemens is the Co-Founder of Golden Hippo. As a copywriter with Today’s show is one that is worth re more than $1B in sales, he has some sharing, because the ability to write insight up his sleeves! great copy and get your message across is timeless and especially So, if you’re adapting your messaging important when we’re adapting our to fit this changing economy, now is a messaging for the crazy year we’ve great time to take a listen to this quick been having. episode. He explains a method that aligns you with your customer and gets Craig Clemens is a copywriter and the the results you want. founder of Golden Hippo. And with over a billion in sales, he can teach us After this episode, you’ll have a solid a thing or two. If you find this formula 4-step strategy for writing Copy that helpful, would you please write us a always works. review on Apple Podcasts? So thank you for listening and remember to hit ••• the subscribe button.

Roland Frasier: Hey, this is Roland Frasier here on Business Lunch with Craig Clemens of Golden Hippo. Craig, welcome to the show.

Craig Clemens: Thanks so much. 18 Roland Frasier: One of the cool things Roland Frasier: I do invest in art. that I saw in some of the stuff that you’d written was your IMPACT ARC. Craig Clemens: There we go. There we go. So I know my audience already. Craig Clemens: IMPACT ARCS. Roland Frasier: Yes, yes. Roland Frasier: Can you tell us quickly about what that is and how that works? Craig Clemens: And the next step in order to convey something is... now Craig Clemens: The IMPACT ARCS you need to show them that you are formula comes from studying also experienced in the topic. And the thousands and thousands of R of the ARC stands for “reveal that you communications and stories. And I have been there.” noticed that there is this primal way of describing something that makes Roland Frasier: Okay. Can I make a it really sink in through the person little bit of input and I’d love to get your you’re describing it to. In order to feedback on it? get someone’s attention, you have to address them based on something Craig Clemens: Absolutely. they can relate to. So, the A in IMPACT ARCS stands for “ask a yes question.” Roland Frasier: So on the question phase, why a yes answer? Roland Frasier: Okay. Craig Clemens: That is the easiest Craig Clemens: So if I wanted to way to explain it though, for advanced tell you about say fine art, we’re in a folks, a statement works just as well room right now with some fine art on as a question. So the yes thing is the wall and I know you Roland like nice because it forces you to think of investing in entrepreneurship and something that they’re going to say things like that. I might say, “Have you yes to for sure. Though, you can do ever thought about how you could a statement that I would say is an invest in alternate things such as fine agreeable statement that’s going to get art? And if you would get a bigger the mental yes, even if they don’t say appreciation there, than you would it out loud. And so a statement in this putting your money somewhere else, example would be something like, “We the stock market, and things like that”. all want to make maximum return on our money that’s sitting in the bank.” Now, honestly. Have you ever had that thought? Yeah, of course.

Roland Frasier: Yes. Roland Frasier: So the reason that I ask is I read a great book called Never Craig Clemens: Okay, cool. Split The Difference by a gentleman 19 named Chris Voss. And one of the best Roland Frasier: It’s the opposite of books on negotiation that I’ve read. everything that you normally think.

He was a hostage negotiator for the Craig Clemens: It’s mind blowing, FBI, lead one, set up the program and counterintuitive fact. You’re like, everything. And I had the chance to what are you doing instead? I agree a talk with him as well. And he suggests hundred percent. that if you ask a no question first, that the walls of objection are automatically Roland Frasier: Brilliant title. down because you’ve already said no. And so mentally you’re more open Craig Clemens: So we’re on the R. So to receive information so that when now we have the person engaged. he was dealing with terrorists, and The R is revealing that you have been these are people who are going to kill there. So it’s showing that you have people because... and Never Split The some experience in the topic. And the Difference is, you can’t say. Well, send disarming part of the reveal, is that you me half the hostages and just kill the are going to reveal that you have been other half. in the place you perceive them to be.

Craig Clemens: Yeah. Roland Frasier: Right.

Roland Frasier: So he’s in all or Craig Clemens: Which is probably nothing kind of situations. And I not as successful as they want to be thought it was really interesting and in the area. So the reveal, in this fine I’ve used it in deal negotiations. And I art example would be, we started off, like things like, would it be ridiculous Hey Ron, have you ever thought about to think that we could come to an investing your money in fine art or agreement on this?. No, it’s not wondering if there was money to be ridiculous. Well, now they’ve said no, made there? And you say, yes. I used and the walls are down because they to always look for interesting places to haven’t said yes. And now they’re on place my money, to beat the market. guard that they’ve said yes. And I also came across fine art and I realized that art isn’t always what it Craig Clemens: And let me point out seems because a few years later when something about that book, title. I said I wanted to get rid the piece, I found that I not only couldn’t sell it for Roland Frasier: Yeah. a profit, I couldn’t sell it all. So, that’s the reveal, that you’ve been there. Craig Clemens: Never Split the difference. If you’re thinking about Roland Frasier: That would obviously negotiating and you want to learn hit a pretty significant fear. Is the negotiate, what is that book, title? reveal, built around a fear or how do you decide what to choose to reveal 20 on about the situation that you’re in? And in that book, he had some interesting things about art that were Craig Clemens: Well, ideally you reveal really innovative, but I wasn’t sure if something that is true. That was the they, would apply to today’s art work. beginning of a learning experience or So I met with a prominent art investor made you strive for more knowledge in who has made 10s of millions of the area. dollars in art. And I showed him Getty’s principles and he showed me how Roland Frasier: Okay. they apply today. And I started using those. And over the last five years, Craig Clemens: So I used a fear-based I’ve averaged a 30% return on my art example, but it could be, I used to annually, which is much more than any wonder where to put my money and I stock market. thought fine art could be a place, but I didn’t know where to start. Roland Frasier: Right. That’s awesome.

Roland Frasier: Right. Craig Clemens: So you can see the beginning of the art, it’s pulling the Craig Clemens: So the C is calling out person in, are you interested in art? your discovery, the discovery that Yes. I used to be too, and it’s crazy. And brought you out of that fog and gave then they’re also agreeing with you and you the clarity. they’re realizing that there are some pitfalls. And then you’re saying that, Roland Frasier: Okay. there is a solution that you’ve found and it makes them start thinking that Craig Clemens: So in this example, there is a solution that could work for you could say. Hey Ron, have you them as well. And then the S stands for ever thought about investing in fine “send them to do something.” art? I had thought the same, but I was so confused. Then when I tried, I lost Roland Frasier: Okay. my ass. Then I discovered a book had been published by J. Paul Getty called Craig Clemens: And the send can be how to get rich. And he published it anything you want depending on your in the 1920s. And most people know offering. So in the case we’re making, J. Paul Getty was a very wealthy man, or I just told you about this guy who but what a lot of people don’t know is distilled this J. Paul Getty formula that he made a lot of wealth in art. In does something for modern art. The fact, he has two museums in Southern send, could be... and I’ve put it all up California where he showcases a lot on a special webpage that you can go of that art and some of the finest art check out. It’s totally free. It’s at www. in the entire world, better than many fineartcollectionsecrets.com. museums. Roland Frasier: Right. 21 Craig Clemens: Or it can be, I’ve Craig Clemens: All right. written it all into a book that’s coming out next week and I’ve just opened it Darren Clarke: You’ve been listening up for pre-orders. So if you pre-order, to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. I’d really appreciate it. Here’s where to For more information, go to Business do it. Or it can be like, get on my email Lunch podcast.com. Thanks for list and I’m going to revealing those listening. tips one by one, or it could say, do you like this? Is there something you want to hear about?

If so, hit the comments in the button “ and me know. Or you could say, do The A in IMPACT ARCS stands for you have a friend that’s interested “ask a yes question.” in art? Tag them below and let them know, because I’m going to give away The R of the ARC stands for 20 copies of this book along with a piece of fine art, whatever you want. “reveal that you have been there.” Roland Frasier: I like that a lot. The C is calling out your Craig Clemens: And they’re likely to take that action because of the way discovery, the discovery that that they are arced in, pun intended to brought you out of that fog and the formula. gave you the clarity.

Roland Frasier: So is it then four separate communications or is all of The S stands for, send them to that in one communication? do something.

Craig Clemens: It’s all in one and that – Craig Clemens can be, in as simple as one run-on sentence or it can be in an hour long presentation. •••

Roland Frasier: Thank you so much. I Want the full episode? Want to subscribe appreciate you coming in and- to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier?

Craig Clemens: My pleasure. Click here!

Roland Frasier: Look forward to talking to you soon.

22 Episode 205 How to Develop an SaaS Product, Get the Best Marketers to Promote It, and Protect Your Cash Flow

Still thinking about that software idea? with Oliver Schmalholz If you’re like me, you have software ideas that come and go and some that stick. Sometimes that idea is worth Darren Clarke: Welcome to the developing (and sometimes it’s not). show this is producer Darren Clarke, But when it’s a great idea, where do and today Roland talks with serial you start? entrepreneur, Oliver Schmalholz. Who is not only a tech wizard but a After Episode 205, you will know what brilliant deal maker. They discuss his Oliver would do if he were starting out. background, their new partnership, Including, Unicorn Equity and what to do and where to start if you have a brilliant • The biggest mistake he sees software idea. entrepreneurs and developers make. This is a really great episode and we • Who your first hire should be hope you get a lot out of it. And if (before a coder!) and how to spot a you do, we would really appreciate a great candidate. review on Apple Podcasts and be sure to share the show with your business- • The 6-Member team you will need minded friends. (and where to find them). • A target budget that’s reasonable Roland Frasier: Hi everyone, Roland for a well-run team to develop a Frasier here welcome to this episode product. of Business Lunch. Today, we have my good friend Oliver Schmalholz And this isn’t even half of the episode! and Oliver when we were talking We also shared about our joint earlier I was asking Oliver I said, venture. It sounds like a good episode, well, what companies should I say? right? It really is. And then I was like, we got too many companies so I’m just going to let you ••• talk a little bit about what you’re doing now. You’ve got some cool projects,

23 one or two that we’re working on the first big industry I was in after we together and a bunch of other ones had a couple of nice exits we had a that I don’t even have any idea bunch of cash there sitting around probably about. So welcome to the and I was just satisfied with the long- show Oliver, would you tell us a little term buy-and-hold and the stock bit about you and let’s start. markets. And we developed a process to leverage data, essentially take news Oliver Schmalholz: Thanks a lot for and analyze it faster than a human having me Roland excited to be here. being and then turn that into a buy or So I’m Oliver Schmalholz originally sell decision. from Germany and- And we have it scaled to almost 2 Roland Frasier: Currently in Mexico. billion a year in transactions, the portfolio turnover every one to two Oliver Schmalholz: Currently Mexico days so pretty short whole time, yeah, I’ve been traveling full time I’ve but we kind of maxed it out from had a little five months past to that a position size and what we could but now trying to resume it slowly and do with our capital. So it was either yeah being an entrepreneur for over becoming licensed and starting our 20 years and been jumping between a own hedge fund or getting into a data couple industries. So I don’t like to get play. And when I looked at the Dodd- too detailed in a single industry. Really Frank Act, all the regulations and hiring keep it to a couple of core themes a compliance officer and putting all that I have found to work extremely those safeguards in place that looked well in the past, and then apply that in pretty bureaucratic to me so the other different businesses. monetization, making the data play out of it looked like it’s the better path and Roland Frasier: So some of the things that’s what I did. you’ve got right now, you have a news- related thing, right? Roland Frasier: Very cool. Now, your latest thing is Unicorn. Do you want to Oliver Schmalholz: Yeah. So that’s talk a little bit about that? an analytics company that came after running investment partnership for Oliver Schmalholz: Oh yeah. That’s a number of years, having developed super exciting. So that’s the deal a news algorithm, essentially a black Roland and I are working on and that box that automatically makes trading is combining the power of affiliate decisions. It was interesting how I marketing and turning that into got into that it was out of frustration equity deals. So for a company, a dealing with my stockbroker. I figured product owner that has a recurring I could do better than this in an subscription product it’s an alternative automated fashion so a couple of my funding source. So instead of going old telecom partners and I so that was out to raise venture capital you’re able 24 to bring some of the best marketers access the best marketers in the world in the world on board that you could that otherwise you would never reach otherwise never afford. And they and they’re able to share your product are going to promote the product or with their audiences as part of the service to their list in exchange for Unicorn platform. cash and equity. So it’s a pretty exciting concept and nobody’s ever done it Roland Frasier: And then if I do that, before. one of the options would be that it doesn’t cost me cash. So like, normally Roland Frasier: So now in that, walk if I’m in a 20, 30, 50% or more affiliate me through an example. So let’s say relationship I’m only seeing about half that I am a company and I’ve got a of the sales, the dollars of sale that product that’s $100 a month so $1,200 come in and I’ve got my cost of goods a year. Let’s say it’s $1,000 a year for an sold that come out and that can leave annual subscription, $100 a month and me with a pretty narrow margin, even I want to get people coming in, I want though I’m getting customers and I’m to get customers and so I don’t have growing. So this also, it sounds like any affiliates now, is that something could provide if I’ve got the product that I would come to this program and that could provide me with a means of look for those people that help me get having better cashflow as well. Does customers? that make sense?

Oliver Schmalholz: Yeah. So not just Oliver Schmalholz: Totally, because affiliates but all kinds of promoters the equity piece, obviously you’re not that could be influencers on social paying out the cash piece that is long- media, bloggers, YouTubers, anybody term compensation. So it’s optimizing with an audience that is a match for your cash flow and the other thing the your product. And typically, it’s pretty equity piece does it opens the door hard to get the big movers and shakers to those world-class marketers that unless you have relationships with would never just promote it on a cash them. They’re pretty selective if at all basis only, no matter if it’s 40, 50% or they ever promote any third party even more. They’re just not interested products and services. You’ve got to in short-term compensation, they’re have relationships and it’s a long path interested in longterm wealth and getting them to promote your product that’s what this model is really about. if you’re new to the game. Turning a marketer, an affiliate, a blogger into a venture capitalist, Roland Frasier: So it provides a way being able to build their own portfolio to access people that you might not companies and have a number of otherwise be able to access them companies in a portfolio that they’re correct? building wealth in.

Oliver Schmalholz: You’ll be able to Roland Frasier: That’s great. And so 25 let’s run through my example, how am If you want to do an 80/20 or 60/40, I going to determine, let’s say that that you just move the slider over and you company... I have that company that’s get paid exactly the way you want. And got the products $100 a month or the platform does all the accounting $1,000 a year, I sign up on the platform because it gets quite complicated and I want to get affiliates. How do I with cap tables and cash conversions determine how much equity I have to and matching that all up. So it has give away and all of that sort of stuff? an analytics engine that does all the Is that something the platform helps accounting for the product owner and with in some way? Just it sounds... It’s a makes it accessible to the promoters, little confusing for me. to the affiliates and influencers and bloggers. Oliver Schmalholz: Right. So the starting point is a valuation, what Roland Frasier: That’s really cool. is your business currently worth? And when is the program launching? And there’s industry comps how When is it going to get its first sight of subscriptions as businesses are valued daylight? and that’s the same approach Unicorn is taking here, taking standard industry Oliver Schmalholz: So we currently comps and growth rate and churn goes have the early registration open and into the formula. And then they come we’re talking to a number of product up at a valuation that works for you owners that are a good fit while the and works for Unicorn. And then we rest of the platform is still coded up. So agree, for example for 20% in equity we’re currently working on the whole we are going to triple your business in analytical engine to display all the 18 months. So there’s a clear revenue data properly and have all the tracking number associated with that what with all the third party platforms. So Unicorn is going to deliver and that’s once all of that is done we will start risk free. So if Unicorn never delivers doing the first couple deals. So by the it you’re not out of the equity. So that’s time this podcast comes out we might only if you physically got the MRR that already be doing the first deal. was agreed upon in the term sheet and then in the transaction paperwork. So back to that transaction, so let’s say there’s 20% allocated in total equity So back to that transaction, so let’s say for all the Unicorn promoters. Then there’s 20% allocated in total equity the Unicorn promoters will go out and for all the Unicorn promoters. Then promote the product and service and the Unicorn promoters will go out and each of them has the ability to select promote the product and service and how much in cash and how much each of them has the ability to select in equity they want. So if somebody how much in cash and how much wants 100% in equity, that’s possible. in equity they want. So if somebody If you want to do an 80/20 or 60/40, wants 100% in equity, that’s possible. you just move the slider over and you 26 get paid exactly the way you want. And listening or watching that have not the platform does all the accounting yet gone into the world of software because it gets quite complicated development but are interested in it, with cap tables and cash conversions you’ve got a tremendous amount of and matching that all up. So it has experience on it over the years and an analytics engine that does all the I’d love to hear your insights on if you accounting for the product owner and didn’t have anything but an idea right makes it accessible to the promoters, now, what would you do to get started to the affiliates and influencers and in software? bloggers. Oliver Schmalholz: So it all comes Roland Frasier: That’s really cool. with experience. Once you understand And when is the program launching? the full lifecycle of software When is it going to get its first sight of development, you’re able to do an daylight? MVP, a minimum viable product pretty much within 90 to 120 days on any Oliver Schmalholz: So we currently new product or a service you want to have the early registration open and roll out. Now, if you don’t have that we’re talking to a number of product experience, I know people they fake owners that are a good fit while the in a year and a half or two and they rest of the platform is still coded up. So still don’t have a product, they’re still we’re currently working on the whole struggling and they think they can analytical engine to display all the hire a couple of Upworkers and have data properly and have all the tracking them piece together a solution on with all the third party platforms. So WordPress. Well, that’s not a scalable once all of that is done we will start SaaS solution. So if I had to do it doing the first couple deals. So by the all over again and start completely time this podcast comes out we might from scratch, I would probably go already be doing the first deal. to somebody with an audience that doesn’t have a SaaS solution yet, Roland Frasier: That’s awesome. I doesn’t have the recurring product yet love it. So let’s go into the software and I would approach them and say, a little bit, because I think a lot of “Hey, let’s partner.” people are intimidated about creating apps and SaaSes and things like that, I’m going to build a team that will but it’s incredibly lucrative based on create this software solution and the valuations and the services and you’re going to take one-time revenues even though there’s thousands and and turn that into a recurring model thousands of apps and marketing video audience, which gets a much technology and FinTech and all those higher valuation than single products other things out there, they’re very come in and you’ve done it with saleable, very scalable, very friendly multiple, fewer businesses. And then valuations. So for people that are it obvious starts with the specifications 27 and design, the more time you that understands asking all the right spend up front thinking about the questions to come up with the high end picture, the less you’re going to level specifications and then actual spend on development once you start user stories. coding. And that’s probably the biggest mistake people make is they spend too Roland Frasier: Is that different from a little time starting to code right away project manager? hiring a programmer and get started without really thinking it through. Oliver Schmalholz: Yes. So a product manager is visionary and makes sure you deliver these great features and is an advocate of the customer. “ Whereas the project manager then If I had to do it all over again comes in once you have defined all of that, your vision and what do you and start completely from want to create, the project manager is scratch, I would probably go the one that takes the specifications to somebody with an audience and turns it into an actual product. But that doesn’t have a SaaS they’re more dealing with developers and defects and processes so that’s solution yet. internal stuff and not visionary. So – Oliver Schmalholz either you have a visionary or you have a transactional project manager, that’s task-based. Roland Frasier: Tell me this because a lot of people do advocate and Over the years, I have found very few I’ve seen courses on how to make a of my team members in that role that software product and things like that, understand both. A couple of months do advocate going out to an Upwork or ago, I hired a great product/project something Rent-a-coder or whatever. manager that understands both What’s the downside to that? Like, why and she’s terrific, she has worked in do you... Cause you mentioned it as a FinTech with products with 2 million mistake. Why is that a mistake? users. So if your starting point is the product manager, then get a few hours Oliver Schmalholz: Well, if you go and get some user stories, do some too quick and if you don’t know what user interviews. And then once you your end picture is. The first person have the specifications then you can you should really hire if you have move to a project manager and then never done product development and you know what to build and then you again, this can be an Upworker on know how to scope it, what kind of a part-time basis for a couple hours talent do you need? And then you can here and there. The first person you go on the Upwork and hire front-end need is a really good product manager and backend developers. 28 Now there’s something called full stack And the part I left out is the UI design developers that can do both, front-end part which you just addressed. That and backend. typically comes before you start coding if you have a really good designer and Roland Frasier: What do you prefer? a few of the best designer I’ve ever worked with I found on Upwork so Oliver Schmalholz: Well, in my there’s great talent. And then they experience I have seen the best typically put it in a mock up application success hiring really good backend like Zeplin where you can see how it developers and really good front-end looks and already click on a few things developers and dividing it into two and then once you’re happy with that pieces. then it moves into development. Roland Frasier: Okay. So I’ve heard Roland Frasier: What’s the difference product manager, project manager, is one like UI user interface type stuff UI designer, front-end developer, and one is the processing on the backend developer. Is that kind of the behind the scenes? team?

Oliver Schmalholz: Right. But then you also need a QA tester on top of it because you don’t want developers do “ the testing. And if you’ve got all those I have seen the best success pieces working and then you need hiring really good backend a really good project management developers and really good software and Jira is the leader in that space and then you can track front-end developers and everything accordingly. And then dividing it into two pieces. you’re able to do like an agile process – Oliver Schmalholz where you move in two week sprints and you don’t want to get too involved, let your project manager run with it Oliver Schmalholz: Right. So front- and that’s really the taking a step back end is what you can see on the web or as the entrepreneur or business owner on a mobile app, what is touchable? and letting the team just develop and Anything you interact with in the user then looking at the end result. interface and then the backend is the part that interacts with the database. Roland Frasier: So what would you And if you’ve built that right, it can be say is the best way to build that team very scalable if you put it on the right as far as do you hire that product infrastructure, or if you built it wrong designer first and then ask for you might have long load times and recommendations for them or what if you put on a lot of users, you might would the process be that you would have a problem scaling the business. go through to build this team of six 29 people it sounds like now? Roland Frasier: That makes sense. So the last thing I’ll ask you about that Oliver Schmalholz: Yeah. Upwork is is in budgeting. So somebody that’s a great starting point I always ask for getting started, how would they figure referrals. LinkedIn is a great recruiting out the budget? And I know that’s a big tool, especially I mean with their costs question because of course it depends have developed onshore in the U.S. on a project, but is there a method or a you have to go offshore at least for formula for kind of figuring out roughly parts of it. So I run a hybrid model what a project might cost? parts of the development team is here in the U.S. parts of it is in Eastern Oliver Schmalholz: So if you’re an Europe and I’ve had great success inexperienced entrepreneur when it with that part of the world. Number comes to software development and one, the time zone works really well you’re doing the first time, cost can and also the business understanding. completely get out of control. I’ve seen While there are some very talented people spend a million and a half to developers in India I have found them $2 million before the product is ever struggling with business specifications ready. If you do the right process and in the past when I tried it a couple of you’re building your MVP in three to times and I don’t have that in Eastern four months, you’re able to crank out a Europe. product for 75 to 100 grand with that team size and that’s sufficient to go And so LinkedIn is a great tool to pretty into the market, collect feedback, and much find people anywhere in the then keep building on the MVP. world if you look at a couple of similar companies in that space, it’s great. If The mistake a lot of entrepreneurs you have a part-time recruiter which make is they put too many features you can find easily on Upwork as well. into the MVP and that’s why the Somebody that knows how to reach time gets longer and longer. So if out to people if you don’t like to do it you narrow it down to what’s really yourself, you’re able to find people required the one or two center with the same stack experience. So you features that really make a difference, will have to make a decision what kind focus on that it doesn’t have to look of programming language do I want super pretty. Yes, user interface is to program this in and then hire your important but don’t spend three team according that. And then there’s months making stuff look pretty. Get a couple paid recruiting platforms so it out, put it in front of users, collect I let my wife handle recruiting she’s feedback and then it’ll be paid user really good at it. And then we got a if you set a different feedback from series of interviewers until it makes unpaid when you goes through the it to me and then I’ll make the final initial interview questions. So saving decision. a lot of time, getting your MVP out to actual users, asking for their credit 30 cards that’s super important to get it million American Airlines points out out quick. of that card. I think we’ve got it 10 times until Citi finally said, enough is Roland Frasier: Nice. Very cool. So tell enough. You’ve got enough of those me for those people who might like cards. So credit card signup and from to get ahold of you to find out more the second card they kept asking what about all of the cool things that you’re you need another one for? Well, I got doing, including the Unicorn project another business that I like to keep my that we’re doing, what is the best way expenses separate on. Okay, here’s for them to connect with you? another card. So that’s a great way to travel for free as just those credit card Oliver Schmalholz: Sure. So they can signup offers and just putting all the go on Facebook, Oliver Schmalholz, expenses on. that’s S-C-H-M-A-L-H-O-L-Z. They can shoot me an email at oliver@ Then hotel-wise, arbitrage. I love to do unicornequity.io or register for the arbitrage, pay for cash when rates are early access at unicornequity.io and low and then redeem the points when I’m also on LinkedIn so I’m sure the you can get four or five or more cents audience can find me. per point on redemptions. So that’s an awesome way and then getting those Roland Frasier: That’s awesome and big suites in the hotels, to me it’s all we were talking since are an avid about relationships, you know building traveler about some travel hacks. a relationship with the GMs especially Before we sign off why don’t you if I’m returning to a destination. If share a few of your favorite, maybe you’ve got their email address or even your top three travel hacks that you’ve cell phone number they can do a lot discovered you think would be helpful of things if they like you and you treat to folks listening? their staff nicely. And that’s probably the number one thing I learned when Oliver Schmalholz: Yeah, absolutely. I talked to a corporate trainer at one of I haven’t paid for a international first- the big hotel chains I said, “So, what is class or a business class ticket in 20 it really a hotel wants from a frequent years and some years we’ve taken guest, is it that you’re a good tipper three or four trips, others just two or you leave good reviews?” And she and that’s for the whole family getting said, “No, it’s treating everybody on into the mileage game, just putting all the staff nicely and that makes all the the company expenses on whatever difference.” best bonus credit card, getting all the signup bonuses. I mean, it’s getting a Roland Frasier: And so how do you little tougher but a few years ago, for make that connection with the hotels... example, Citibank had some American The key people at the hotel? Airlines Elite MasterCard, my wife and I between the two of us we’ve got a Oliver Schmalholz: Oh I obviously 31 you know engage in conversations with every... They’re pretty easy to spot the good GMs do their walkthroughs in the morning and I’ll just approach them if they’re not proactive, I mean a lot of times I already have their... You know, they reach out to me pre- arrival, he does a text message or an email, but if they don’t do that, they’re pretty easy to spot, especially in the mornings when they do their morning walkthroughs and I’ll just get up, “Hey, I’m Oliver Schmalholz.” And they introduce themselves and here’s my card and we’ve gotten some great benefits out of that.

Roland Frasier: That’s awesome. Awesome. Well, Oliver, thank you so much really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show today. And I’m very excited about the unicornequity. io project and all the other fun stuff that you’re doing. So just want to say thanks and I’ll look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Oliver Schmalholz: Thanks a lot for having me, Roland. Thanks so much.

•••

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32 Episode 206

Four Different Entrepreneur Types (That You Need to Be) to Scale Your Company

Which of Ryan Deiss’ 4 Types of Entrepreneurs are you?

The Inventor with Ryan Deiss The Driver The Manager The Guide Darren Clarke: Welcome to the show, this is Darren Clarke and today we That was a trick question because have a tasty snack-sized episode with you need to be all four as you move special guest Ryan Deiss. If you’ve not through the lifecycle of a company (if come across Ryan already, he’s one you want it to scale)! of the partners behind Scalable and DigitalMarketer. He’s an entrepreneur, In this episode, Ryan Deiss shares his author, and investor. So let’s get approach to Entrepreneurship. After started into the show. And would the episode, you will, you please support us by leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts, and don’t • See yourself in one or more of forget to hit the Subscribe button. them. • Know why it’s critical to understand Roland Frasier: Thank you so much this when you’re acquiring for coming here today and joining us in companies. this epic conversation, Ryan. It’s nice to • Understand what happens when have you here again. you get stuck in a particular role and can’t progress to the next phase. Ryan Deiss: Yeah. It’s great to be back.

••• Roland Frasier: So I’m excited. What are you going to ‘presentate’ about?

Ryan Deiss: Really, what I want to talk about is the difference between transitioning from marketing a single brand and a single product to really marketing a portfolio because I know it’s one thing to market a single 33 product. It requires a completely of founders and the four types of different mindset to market a portfolio entrepreneurs that everyone must of products. And as a marketer who’s be throughout the life cycle of their had to make that transition, I’m going company, okay? So you will probably to kind of walk you through some stuff default to one of them, but the thing and give you some kind of insider you need to know is that over time behind-the-scenes goods that we’ve you’ll likely be all of them as your never talked about before. company scales. So I’ll kind of talk through the four types, and we’ll come back and talk about why it’s so important that you kind of change the “ way that you’re approaching this. It’s one thing to market a single product. It requires So in general, in my experience working with business people, you a completely different have folks that are more kind of mindset to market a portfolio focusing maybe just more at the of products. kind of visionary strategic level, and you have folks that live more at the – Ryan Deiss operational tactical level. And I’m talking about one being above and Roland Frasier: And I think maybe one being below, I don’t mean to this is what you mean, not only within suggest that one is better or worse the same company how to do multiple than another, one is higher or lower products, but how to go back and than another. You have very successful forth among your portfolio companies, founders who are really strong right? visionaries and not as strong on the operator side. And I’ve seen equally Ryan Deiss: Literally how to market a successful founders who are very solar system. I wouldn’t go so far as to operational and they lack some of the say a galaxy yet, but a solar system of visionary side, but they got the idea brands. and it was fine, right?

Roland Frasier: Nice. I like it. Okay. What I want to bring into play here With that, let’s let Ryan take it away. though is this concept of early in a company’s life versus later in a Ryan Deiss: I believe that there are company’s life. Because again, as four different founder types, four you’re out there acquiring companies, different entrepreneur types that one, it’s important for you to exist. And this is not like a personality understand what is the life cycle this test where you’re one of them and company is in so that you know, if somebody else is something else. I you’re going to be the one driving believe that these are the four types it, where you need to be. But it’s also 34 important that you understand where prototyping, and coming up with those you need to go if you ever want to breakthrough ideas, right? So that’s the separate yourself from it. inventor, that’s the idea person, the person who generally has the Eureka So if we think about people who are moment. more visionary at the early stage, those are kind of your inventors, okay? Those Now if a founder, if an entrepreneur, are your inventors. If you think about never moves beyond this inventor still early stage but more operational/ stage, then they’re that person you tactical, we call that the driver. If you know who’s got notebooks full of think about operational/tactical but business ideas and never does a dang a little bit later stage, that’s more of thing, right? And you know these the manager. And if you think about people, right? You know the people the visionary strategist later stage, that are out there, they got a million that’s what we refer to as the guide. ideas and they execute on exactly none of them. That’s why all successful Now what I want to point out here is entrepreneurs eventually need to that in many respects a guide is a more develop that driver mindset so they developed and a more mature version can take it with them, or they need to of the inventor. And a manager is a have a co-founder who really fills that more developed and mature version in. So with the driver, they’re the in- of a driver. But the fact is, if you are a the-trenches, get-it-done, execution guide at the early stage of a company’s people, right? And generally if it’s life, you’ll get nothing done. If you’re a going to happen, it’s going to happen manager, as you’ll see when I kind of because I did it, right? So that is the bring up the description, too early in driver. the process, you’ll create bureaucracy and nothing will get done. So as I go Now that’s really helpful and really, through these I want you to think, really, really good in the beginning, which one do I naturally default to? but if you don’t transition away from But I don’t want you to think that one that into more of a manager, it can is necessarily better or worse than hold you back. So the manager is another. You absolutely must have all when leaders begin leading leaders, of these in place at different points in the manager of people in system and the company’s cycle. process, looking to really create just that, creating more systems, creating So we think about the inventor. This more processes. is the creator, just as the name would suggest. The creator of new projects. And then at the latter stage, ultimately They’re out there looking at trends where I think most of us would want to and opportunities. They’re following progress and really where you need to their instincts. And primarily they’re progress to if you want to effectively creating the value through researching, build a portfolio of companies and do 35 more acquisitions is the guide. want to build a portfolio, you’ve got to learn to make the shift eventually And the guide is the keeper of the to the guide stage. It’s got to happen. vision and the culture. They’re driven And I believe what defines the guide is to grow more strategically. And here’s it’s not about having the answers, it’s the biggie, guides create value by about having the right questions. asking questions, okay? Guides create value by asking questions. At the So I love this quote from Carl Jung. guide level it is impossible to have all He said, “To ask the right question is the answers, so what the goal needs already half the solution of a problem.” to be long term is to figure out the right questions to ask. And we’ll come Darren Clarke: You’ve been listening back to that again in just a second. to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. But guide is all about offering rational If you’re enjoying the show, let us know perspective, holding the leadership by subscribing and leaving a review. team accountable, right? If you think And for more information, go to about it, very often the guide is businesslunchpodcast.com. Thank you serving in more of a board capacity, as for listening. opposed to an executive capacity, all right? In more of an officer capacity, as opposed to an operator type capacity, right? So when we think about the “ guide, that’s where we’re going. To ask the right question And generally the way that we want is already half the solution to progress is something like this, of a problem. right? We all start as inventors. We – Carl Jung need to build up the driver to actually get the dang thing launched. Then we pivot into more of a manager and ••• have drivers underneath us. And then eventually for most founders, we need Want the full episode? Want to subscribe to shift into the guide role or we run to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier? the risk of being micromanagers and holding everything back or just driving Click here! ourselves crazy. In my experience, most entrepreneurs, their natural state is either the inventor or more the driver. And making that shift into manager and ultimately guide, that is the thing that can be the hardest thing to do and that holds people back. But what I’m going to say here is, if you 36 Episode 207

When to Walk Away from Your Business (Even When It’s Profitable) and Start Over

Could you walk away from a profitable business?

I loved my chat with Michael and with Michael Rozbruch Roslyn Rozbruch. They are killing it with their Tax and Business Solutions Academy and RozStrategies.com. But Darren Clarke: You’re listening to it all happened because Michael left a Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. successful business. This is your seat at the table. Welcome to the show, and thank you for tuning It’s not easy to do, but I agree with in. I’m Darren, the producer. And Michael and Roslyn that there are Roland has a great show for you today. necessary endings in life. Listen in to episode 207 to hear their story and glean He talks with Michael and Roslyn from what they’ve learned along the way. Rozbruch about their journey together as founders of the Tax and Business You will hear, Solutions Academy, and rozstrategies. • How they crushed their business com. So listen for partnerships that launch with no list and very little went bad, launching when you don’t knowledge. know what you’re doing, scaling and • Their passion for learning and how pivoting. they absorb expertise. There’s also some great nuggets of • Secrets to working with your wisdom from Michael on how to significant other. handle fear, and Rosalyn has some • How they scaled and “layered up” insights on partnering with your their products and memberships. significant other. If you enjoy the show, be sure to hit subscribe and share the And I especially love this philosophy! episode with your business-minded friends. All right, let’s get started. “If you were going to buy something from us, you’re going to get more value Roland Frasier: Hey, everybody, Roland beyond what you’ve invested.” Frasier here with business lunch, – Roslyn Rozbruch very, very excited to have two very ••• cool guests today. And that is Roslyn

37 and Mike Rozbruch, and they have that’s why- done some really cool things with taxes of all things. It’s one of the things that’s Roland Frasier: It might have been a near and dear to my heart because buyer or two, right? my father is a, gosh, 45-year now, practicing tax attorney and worked Michael Rozbruch: Yes, you have a with the IRS and all that stuff when very motivated buyer. I used to view he was coming up, still doing it. So the IRS as my marketing partner I hear about it all the time. And you because every time they issued a guys have found a way to add that to notice of federal tax lien or a levy to existing accountants practices to make a third party, it was great. They were them significantly more profitable. Is calling my office. I didn’t have to do that correct? that much marketing because they had the IRS do the marketing. Michael Rozbruch: Yes. Yeah, it’s amazing that most accountants who Roland Frasier: That’s so cool. have practices and have a book of Well, tell us a little bit about, so you business don’t realize they have gold. guys have been together for quite a They have cases sitting right in their while and working as a team in this database that they don’t know they business? have because their clients don’t know they actually do this kind of work as a Roslyn Rozbruch: We’ve been working practice area. together for six years.

Roland Frasier: That’s so cool. And Michael Rozbruch: Married for 35. then I was also reading lately that if you look at businesses with the highest Roslyn Rozbruch: We celebrated our profit margin and greatest growth for 35th wedding anniversary recently. 2020, tax, planning and controversy comes up repeatedly, which is Roland Frasier: So those six years surprising. Why do you think that is? have not had a negative effect of actually had a positive effect on Michael Rozbruch: Well, because it’s working together? a different pricing model. When you’re doing controversy work or planning, Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. it’s based on value pricing, what value you bring to the table, what can Roslyn Rozbruch: I think so. I think we you save them from a tax planning do work well together. standpoint and go forward tax liability. And from a controversy standpoint, Roland Frasier: This is awkward if you’re basically getting them out either of you say, well, actually, so behind the eight ball. So, you’re don’t do that. not billing by the hour. And I think 38 Michael Rozbruch: Well, actually, I with, and then you decided to make think our relationship and marriage the leap into info. has actually gotten stronger these last Michael Rozbruch: Yes. six years. Now, don’t get me wrong. There were some bumps in the road Roland Frasier: Would you describe early on, figuring out everyone’s where you were and a little bit about strength and weaknesses and that journey for us? everything else, but Roslyn brings to the table, number one, she keeps me Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. I did all out of trouble. And number two is she the training at my firm. I did not only has a journalism background. So she’s the technical training, but I also did excellent at writing. I do the teaching, a lot, of course, all the marketing and we transcribe the stuff I teach, and the advertising. I was the face of the then Roz productizes it and edits it and company. I did all the interviews. I did packages it up for sale. She’s also does all the videos. I did all of that. And this all our mastermind event planning and was probably 2011, 2012, 2013, when our big annual event, which is now online was starting to explode, I knew going virtual. I wanted to do something online. And at the time with my current business, I Roslyn Rozbruch: Going virtual. So had some... that was a big pivot. But I think that when Michael had his first business, Look, a partnership is like a marriage. which he had for 16 years, where And this one it was like a divorce. This he really helped people with IRS was like a nasty divorce. And thank problems, at the time, I was working God for this lady, because she’s the on a magazine as assistant editor at one who saw what was going on and Los Angeles magazine, and it was a pulled me out of the fire. There was a dream job. So we weren’t going to short window of opportunity for her to work together very well then, but pull me out of the fire otherwise, who now, there were certain things that I knows. I still might even be there. And I was working part-time to help. And knew I wanted to do something online. I think that’s when we saw that we could work together. And I just think And look, every time I went to an that we just do separate things. The event and I would be with my peers, I things that I do, Michael doesn’t like to always would scratch my head because do and what he does, I don’t have any these guys, these CPAs and EAs and education. And so that’s why we work tax attorneys were a lot smarter than well together. me, technically, Roland. It took me three times to pass the CPA exam. Roland Frasier: That’s great. And so I was a C plus student in college. I tell me the story, Michael, how did was not like the smartest tool in the you get started and then, because I’m shed when it came to book learning. assuming you had a practice to start However, I knew how to connect 39 with people. I knew how to transfer were like the friends of mine, one emotion. I really cared about helping guy does all the technical education. people. And I would always scratch The other guy does the software my head thinking, why are these guys case management and I’m doing the struggling? They’re just struggling marketing. So I went to them and I all the time. They went to the best said, “Hey, Jamie, Hey Larry, I’m doing schools, passed the CPA the first time, this thing, would you mind sending graduated college [inaudible 00:07:04], some emails?” that didn’t guarantee them success. So the missing part was the marketing. But more importantly, I said, “I want you to join me on the launch.” So I flew So I started taking surveys at the them out to Colorado. So they were in seminars and conferences. And the the launch. I interviewed them. So they biggest thing was, I don’t know how to felt really good about emailing their market. I don’t know how to get leads. list, and that’s how I got those people. I don’t know how to close the sale. So I said, you know what, I’m going to start Roland Frasier: Well done. I like an online business. And we didn’t know it. Now, was there any particular what the heck we were doing back in education that you took to help you June, 2014. I did a four-hour launch with that like Jeff Walker’s thing or without no list, not knowing what I anything like that or? was doing. And I think 750 people showed up and 400 people bought a Roslyn Rozbruch: There were a few 297 product and that launched this things that happened along the way. business. And one of them was in October of 2013. And you might want to tell the Roland Frasier: Wow. That is a heck of story. Three people told Michael to a launch. So how did you do that not read a particular book. having a list or not knowing how to do any of this stuff? Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. Fortuitously, three people who didn’t know each Michael Rozbruch: Well, one of the other told me to read Brendon most important things I can convey to Burchard’s Millionaire Messenger. anyone who’s listening, who’s thinking about doing that, the tax resolution Roland Frasier: Oh, fantastic. Okay, industry is only 22 years old. Prior good. to 1998, there was no such thing as tax resolution. Then-president Michael Rozbruch: And I read that Clinton signed the ‘98 Tax Reform and book. Restructuring Act, which gave birth to this industry. So there was three of us Roslyn Rozbruch: We signed up to go who were on the ground floor. And to his experts Academy. I had affinity with those folks. They 40 Michael Rozbruch: In March of 2014, I had a lot of money in the bank. We which was incredible. had a lot of equity in the house and I just said, “We can start over. Won’t this Roslyn Rozbruch: But we went be fun? Our kids are out of the house.” to a Dan Kennedy, GKIC event, a I was like, “This would be so fun, a new conference in November, 2013. adventure.”

Michael Rozbruch: November, 2013. Roland Frasier: That’s awesome.

Roslyn Rozbruch: So we went to the Roslyn Rozbruch: We went to Brendon conference, we bought everything. Burchard’s event and that did it.

Michael Rozbruch: I think we bought Michael Rozbruch: Coming back from $30,000 worth of product. We bought that event, we had this huge mediation everybody’s product. at my company and it went on for 14 hours. And that Brendon Burchard Roslyn Rozbruch: We just had a event gave me the courage and the launch with Mars. It was like we had a insight to tell, the attorneys wanted to launch or we do a product launch and go home at 6:00 PM and get dinner. a few other things. And I stood up, I shut the door and I said, “Neither one of us are leaving this Michael Rozbruch: I did have a coach room until we hammer out a deal.” though. We did have a coach at the And we left here at about 11:30 PM beginning. with a disengagement agreement. And that was the end. Roslyn Rozbruch: We had a coach. We just started doing it. He was still at his Roland Frasier: That’s great. business. Roslyn Rozbruch: And the other Michael Rozbruch: I still have my thing I had said to Michael was, “Just company. take whatever deal you can take” because he’s the one that built his first Roslyn Rozbruch: He was having a company. He could sit in any chair, do hard time figuring out how to exit. anything. And I go, “I know you could do it again. And I believe in you and Michael Rozbruch: She had a lot more you just want to be free because we faith than me at that time because I could do this again. And I’ll be your was beaten down by my partner. I was business partner.” not in a good mindset at that time. Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, I walk from Roslyn Rozbruch: So at the time he that company. I did not sell it. I walked was very profitable. He was making a out. I walked away because I was lot of money, but he was miserable. So getting physically sick. Every time I take 41 my key to open the front door, the first Michael Rozbruch: We didn’t know place I would go would be to the men’s what we were doing. By the way, he room. I just needed to get out of that sold that product at GKIC. I think retail environment and I didn’t care what it was 10,5. He sold it for 3,500 bucks. So took. I just wanted out so bad. he did this launch for 3,500 bucks.

Roland Frasier: I love that. It’s really Roland Frasier: You got an insane cool that going to Brendon’s thing, you deal. That’s so cool. It’s funny because got the confidence to do that. Then you can talk with him. But the you mentioned Mars. Was that Mars discovery day, he was having trouble [inaudible 00:11:50] ? with his business and he couldn’t figure it out. And I said, “You need to Michael Rozbruch: Yes. Yep, Mars was do a discovery day.” Every time I talk the guy who did our first launch back to he’s like, “Man, that’s the best thing in June of 2014. you’ve ever told me was this discovery day. It just changed everything.” So, Roland Frasier: Well, you started with yeah. That’s great. I can’t believe you the cream of the cream of the crop got to start out with him. because Mars is just an amazing, good friend of mine. Amazingly talented guy. So with Brendon, who’s a good friend and Dan who, I don’t know if Dan has Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, he’s a great any friends, but I definitely know Dan. guy. He’s a good [inaudible 00:12:05]. One thing I learned early on, Roland, if Michael Rozbruch: He has a couple. you want to learn something, just find We know of one. the best expert in that space, hire him, do whatever you got to do. Roslyn Rozbruch: We know one [inaudible 00:13:12]. Roland Frasier: Great, 100%. Roland Frasier: I’m kidding. Michael Rozbruch: I mean, that’s what we do. Michael Rozbruch: By the way [inaudible 00:13:13] give him kudos. I Roland Frasier: Did he do a discovery started my tax resolution business with day with you guys? magnetic marketing back in 1998.

Roslyn Rozbruch: Yeah, he did. Roland Frasier: Magnetic marketing is still amazing. Right? Michael Rozbruch: The day before. Michael Rozbruch: Yes. Roslyn Rozbruch: Yeah, he did a discovery. We had a couple of Roland Frasier: That’s great. I love converse, we didn’t know what the. that. It wasn’t because of the partners, 42 it was other stuff, but I had a similar chance to work with Dean Graziosi. So restart with law and I just wasn’t happy many amazing people. with it at all. And like you, I just walked away from it. And it’s so exhilarating Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, it’s been though to get, when you don’t like great. something anymore, you’ll be like, maybe you liked it when you started Roland Frasier: It’s awesome. Now, because that’s how you built it and as far as working together, what’s the everything. But when you’ve done with secret to working with your spouse or that, it’s just a drag every day to go significant other, would you guys say? in. And so now you’re like, look at you I’d like to hear it from each of you. guys, you’re smiling, you’re happy and you’re doing cool stuff. And I believe Michael Rozbruch: Ronch, you go first. you’re probably even making some money, right? Roslyn Rozbruch: Do you want me to go? Roslyn Rozbruch: It’s been very good. Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, we’re doing very well. So it’s been sweet. We have Roslyn Rozbruch: Well, I think that we a small staff, it’s me and Roslyn and do like our separate time. Michael is three folks, three team members up very early. He’s in the office at 6:30 on payroll and everything else, we and I come in later. So we do have our outsource. separate time to come in and go out. And I think that we work on separate Roslyn Rozbruch: Right. And it’s fun things, that I love doing creation and because our kids are out of the house design that Michael doesn’t like to do and we travel a lot. We learn together, that. And I’m always thinking of fun we’re on this adventure together. things. We’ve met a lot of really great people that we have become friends. I feel Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. I love the very lucky because we are learning marketing. For me, it’s a game, it’s together, growing besides, we’re a challenge. If we tweak this, what having a company that we enjoy response are we going to? I love that working together. stuff. And I also like teaching folks how to do the technical. The biggest thing Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. We’ve done that I find is CPAs are so afraid to look so much in personal development stupid. They’re so afraid to look bad. during these six years. Being in these They so don’t want to make a mistake. masterminds, of course, Genius So they get caught up in the paralysis Network, Dan Sullivan, Strategic Coach. of analysis with regard to the technical work. Roslyn Rozbruch: We’ve had the 43 Because this is a different animal. I know it very well. That’s great. And Resolution, controversy work is a also for them to hear you say, listen, different animal, but they already have I’ll go down to the meeting with the the credential. They already know their examiner. You don’t have to worry way around a 1040 and 1120. It’s a about that. That’s like, what? I don’t small leap to, look, someone coming have to go? to you who owes $75,000 in income tax, hasn’t filed in four years and has a Michael Rozbruch: Exactly. They get levy on their wages. The in a lot, you’re so nervous. going to do to make matters worse. Even if you made a mistake, nobody’s Roland Frasier: So you guys launched going to know about it. I try to tell this business and you had grown them that. another business before. What did you do as far as scaling? So you do your Just by filing your power of attorney launch and then you’re like, okay, I with a client, who’s in that position, got some money. Now I’ve got a lot of you provide immediate relief. Look, clients, then what? the phone weighed 800 pounds for that person to dial the number to call Roslyn Rozbruch: The product led you. Once they call you, that’s 90% right into a membership. So that is of the game. If you don’t drool on the monthly reoccurring revenue. And your tie and your marketing sets up then just different things, it’s in layers. your positioning, you’re going to get So that’s how I see things. You just add retained by that client. And the minute different layers. And I had a vision of you file your power of attorney, you how to make that product our... step into the taxpayer shoes. So now, the IRS has to communicate directly Michael Rozbruch: Domination with you, not your client. You know system. what kind of burden off the client’s shoulder that is? It’s tremendous. Roslyn Rozbruch: Right. How to make it better because I’m a very visual. And sold it for $3,400. So I just had that. And then it was like, Oh, we should “ have another level of membership. Just by filing your power of And then we sold another part. So it’s just different layers adding on. I’m attorney with a client, who’s always thinking of how can I make the in that position, you provide membership better, make it like a pain immediate relief. of disconnect. – Michael Rozbruch I’ve learned a lot from hearing you speak because you are all about Roland Frasier: I do. I used to do that. monthly recurring revenue. And so I 44 always like to follow you and hear what getting paid for all the busy work they you have to say. That’s very helpful. never charge for.

Michael Rozbruch: So each of the Most CPAs, if they get a notice for their launches have gotten larger and larger client, they just handle the notice, even because we’ve built a list. I have more if it takes them an hour. No, you’re affinity with more people. So wedo not doing any work for free because a bunch of strategic partnerships or they underestimate and undervalue JVs. But the other thing that I also their services. So we have members created was when I had my resolution who make 50 grand, 70 grand, 20 business, I also co-founded with my grand, $100,000 that drops right to the partner and another gentleman, a bottom line because the client now company called Tax Audit Defense. feels they have their back. And we were TaxAct’s sole provider of audit protection plan. So when a Roland Frasier: Do you look for extra consumer went on to TaxAct to file services that you could provide that their return, when they press the were valuable obviously to the end button, our landing page came up customer, but also just layered on to and said, in the rare chance, if you get the things that you already had. It was audited for $99.95, we’ll protect you, really smart. And I love adding onto we’ll represent you. the, what was the tax filing company that you put the audit plan? So now, TaxAct has six million people file their returns. And the take rate was Michael Rozbruch: TaxAct. only about 2 or 3%, which was still a lot of money. Roland Frasier: So TaxAct. So now, did you know somebody there? Roland Frasier: I say 2 or 3% of six million is pretty [inaudible 00:19:33] . Michael Rozbruch: No, I did not know. Although the third partner was more Michael Rozbruch: Yes. It’s still a lot like an acquisitions guy, an M&A guy. of money. We made a lot of money So he made the contact there. in that company. So what I did was I reversed the model because all of Roland Frasier: Okay. Because I would these models are opt-in plans. So I say, a lot of people I’m sure would be, flipped it and made it a default plan. So it’s such an easy way to get additional we sell what I call the audit protection business to form these strategic plan system and toolkit where CPAs, relationships. And you mentioned I guarantee them, if they follow my you have a lot right now. How do you instructions, they get an 85 to 95% take go about identifying those and then rate. And each client is paying them locking them down? an extra 79, 95 for the silver level plan every single year. And now they’re Michael Rozbruch: Again on these 45 launches that we do and it’s a different Roslyn Rozbruch: Yes. marketing. So someone who wants the audit protection plan system is a Roland Frasier: And so how have you much broader audience because you been affected by and adapted with the don’t really need to be licensed to do whole shutdown process? that product, all you need to be is a professional tax payer. So it’s a much Roslyn Rozbruch: That’s so tough broader audience. So there’s more because that’s a pivot. We do our big potential customers for that. And we’ve event every August and that’s the thing done three or four launches. I love doing. I love putting on events and I make it an experience and just Roslyn Rozbruch: We do it annually. two weeks ago decided we really need to make it virtual because- Michael Rozbruch: We do that one annually. Michael Rozbruch: There were too much risk, too much liability. And I Roslyn Rozbruch: That one, we have a high tolerance for risk. But this don’t market a lot, but we just do it was above my pay grade. every year. And I think being also in business for six years, a lot of people Roland Frasier: It doesn’t seem like it’s have become successful and people going in the right direction right now are hearing it. They’ve seen Michael, either. he does a lot of social. He’s out there doing content videos. He’s out doing Michael Rozbruch: No. tax man on the street and different things. And I think people saying he’s Roslyn Rozbruch: No. the real deal and that anybody that comes in our membership, it’s all Michael Rozbruch: Plus the hotel was about value. That’s what I learned from very restrictive. You couldn’t hand out all the people that we admire is that if order forms, you couldn’t hand out you are going to buy something from goodie bags. us, you’re going to get more value beyond what you’ve invested and that Roslyn Rozbruch: You had to have a has helped our business model a lot. control crowd.

Michael Rozbruch: Yep. Michael Rozbruch: You had to hire a control crowd officer for every 50 Roland Frasier: Now, you have events people to be the mask police. It just as in-person events as a significant wasn’t going to work. part of the business as well, correct? Roslyn Rozbruch: You couldn’t gather. Michael Rozbruch: Yes. it was not good. But we’re always learning. So we did the pivot. And so 46 what we do is I just ask other people have recommended and something that we admire and trust, well, what that happened with Pedro, which is did you do? How did you do it? really interesting because he’s doing the challenge is we found out the Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, we should person that we’re signing with was be signing the contract actually, maybe doing his three-day live event. And this today or tomorrow with a virtual event interesting thing is his challenge led company that tend to be producing into the event. this for us. Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, Roslyn Rozbruch: Right. unbeknownst he said that. And it’s so fortuitous that we’re doing it that way. Roland Frasier: That’s great. He says putting a challenge in front of a two-day or a three-day virtual event Roslyn Rozbruch: So the interesting is brilliant. Even though we had no thing is, so when you open yourself to idea because what we’re going to do is change and that’s really important to we’re going to fill the virtual with a lot note a pivot, if this isn’t working okay, of people who come to the challenge. then what do we need to do to make it work? And two things that we did, one Roland Frasier: Fantastic. is we know Robin Robins and she just did a virtual three-day event for 4,500 Roslyn Rozbruch: Right. So I already people. She was one of the first to do have the event box because that’s me. it. I like to be like, how can I make it an experience that they show up that you Michael Rozbruch: Yeah. And we have make them want to come before day to the deal with her is, is that the hotel one? And they will get this event box actually canceled on her. This was back with swag plus the playbook where in April. She had three weeks to pivot they’ll be learning. We’ve already talked from a physical to a virtual. to our speakers. We have a whole state. We’re just do what you got to do. Roslyn Rozbruch: And she’s amazing. So we wanted to know how did she do Roland Frasier: Nice. Now, are you it? So we got on a plane. guys doing the Sage and blue one method where you have the stage set Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, we just came up? back from Nashville last week. Roslyn Rozbruch: Yes. Roslyn Rozbruch: Right. And she shared her whole experience, it’s like, Roland Frasier: Are you using them? I have to hear this information over and over because it’s a big thing to do, Michael Rozbruch: Yes. talking to different vendors that people 47 Roslyn Rozbruch: Yes. Roland Frasier: So you talked to Pedro a day, Oh, by the way, for those who Roland Frasier: Yeah. Okay. So is that are listening. So Pedro who created out of North Carolina? Is that where a product all around how to do that is? challenges and was a consultant to us on ours as well. He and Pete Vargas Michael Rozbruch: Yes. However, both have done that a few times now they have a studio that may be ready and found it to be very effective. I here in California, possibly Burbank know Tony just did. I forget how many because there’s another gentleman thousands of tickets to UPW online who we both knows having his three- Tony just sold, but that is a model day virtual a week before ours with that’s just killer effective. That’s great. sage and they say he’s doing it here in Burbank. So we may not have to go to So you guys are going to do that. South Carolina. We don’t know yet. You’re doing it absolutely right. You’ve retained the best people again, which Roland Frasier: Yeah. I know Sam, I’m is great and you’re planning it. And as blanked on his last name, but Sam that Roslyn mentioned, you’re making it an owns Catalyst who does- experience, which is really key. That’s awesome. I love that. Love it. Any other Michael Rozbruch: Yes, and we’ve big pivots, obviously, that’s a lot right spoke to Sam. there.

Roland Frasier: Yeah. So Sam’s got Michael Rozbruch: Right. One of the a studio that he built a Tony Robbins big pivots was when COVID hit and studio in Florida, which is a four and a there was all this stimulus and the half million dollar studio that Tony just cares package and the PPP and the did his challenge from who had several EIDL. I knew that my folks were on the hundred thousand people on. front lines. People who are doing taxes are on the front lines with not only Michael Rozbruch: Wow. doing taxes, but all their clients had questions about should I do the PPP? Roland Frasier: And so we’re going to What’s the difference between that? In do challenge before TNC to put people the EIDL is one forgiven and one not. into the virtual TNC in wherever Sam how do I get it forgiven? So I brushed is. I don’t know what city he’s in, but up on everything and I taught six or it’s in LA. So that’d be worth you guys seven webinars on the subject and looking into for sure. even created a resource center on the membership site for our members. Michael Rozbruch: Okay. Interesting. So that was probably one of the first Roslyn Rozbruch: Yeah. or biggest pivots when COVID first hit. But also, I’m telling all my members is, 48 look, this is not a long-term business something, he is so good at staying strategy. Doing PPP loans or EIDL loans focused and I’m the cheerleader of this is not a long-term strategy. So don’t will be so much fun again, what is it’s get too comfy with it. Don’t get too adventure, kind of thing? That’s how married to it. First and foremost is to we work well. help people out with IRS problems. Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, I’m the one Roland Frasier: Right. That’s who’s- awesome. Now, what are you guys most excited about right now? Roslyn Rozbruch: He’s got his nose to the right zone and I’m cheering him on. Michael Rozbruch: I think the challenge and the event, we’re going Michael Rozbruch: I’m the one who’s into the unknown again. And so, every anxious. I’m the one who’s nervous time we go into the unknown, there’s and rascal. Yeah, you can do it. two kinds of fear. If you took all the fear in the world and boiled it down, Roslyn Rozbruch: That’s what makes there’s only two kinds of fear in the you guys such a great team. That’s world. One is fear of losing something awesome. So thank you, first of all, you already have. The second is fear of both of you for taking the time to come not getting something you want. And today. I just have to keep this in perspective, that fear is a mile long, a mile high, Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, thank you. but paper thin—all you have to do is poke your finger through it and you’re Roslyn Rozbruch: Thank you. on the other side. So I keep reminding myself about that. So that’s my words Roland Frasier: People that would of wisdom on fear. like to get a hold of you, find out more about what you do, find out all the cool things that are going on. What’s the “ best ways for them to connect with you Fear is a mile long, a mile high, guys? but paper thin—all you have to Michael Rozbruch: The best way do is poke your finger through is they can go to the website, which it and you’re on the other side. is Roz, R-O-Z strategies plural .com. – Michael Rozbruch That’s rozstrategies plural.com. There’s some free trainings there. Or our YouTube channel has like 125 short training videos on tax resolution. Roslyn Rozbruch: I think with Michael, And you can find that under Michael he’s smarter than he relayed. He’s very Rozbruch’s Tax and Business Solutions focused. And when he needs to learn Academy channel. 49 Roland Frasier: Perfect. So YouTube. And is there a podcast or any other?

Roslyn Rozbruch: Yeah.

Michael Rozbruch: Yeah, I have a podcast too and it’s on all the Apple and Google and Spotify, and that’s the Tax Resolution Success Show. So you can subscribe to the Tax Resolution Success Show.

Roland Frasier: Well, thanks again, really appreciate you guys taking the time to be here and hang out and share.

Roslyn Rozbruch: Thank you.

Michael Rozbruch: Thank you, Roland. You’re awesome. Thank you, man.

•••

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50 Episode 208

Finding the Right Acquisitions to Fast Track Growth

As soon as you dip your toe in the Acquisitions game, you’ll find what Sam Khorramian said on my podcast to be true. with Sam Khorramian

“What I’ve found with this is people are often really hot, and then they’re really or wherever you’re listening and write cold, and then they’re hot, and then us a review? Okay, let’s begin. they’re cold. So I’m a big believer that the first thing I need to do is get them Roland Frasier: Hey everybody, it to trust me, like me, and want to do is Roland Frasier here with Business the deal with me”. Sam Khorramian. Lunch Podcast. I’m very excited to welcome my guest today. Sam is one Sam gave some great tips on how he of my business partners in a really deals with this, wins trust, and gets the cool business that he and Oliver Graff deals to move through. built up that is a physical, terrestrial real estate brokerage with a thousand ••• brokers and just under $4 billion in sales last year. And I wanted to have Sam on because he has done quite Darren Clarke: Hey guys, this is the a few cool acquisitions of things, not producer of the show, Darren Clarke. with much or any money out of pocket. Today Roland introduces the co- And what I’d love for you to do, Sam, founder of seven-year old Big Block is will you just talk first, a brief intro Realty, Sam Khorramian and they talk about who you are, what Big Block is acquisitions and growth. Sam and his and what you guys are doing there? partner, Oliver Graff, are looking to And then also let’s then get into a move into national expansion. So you couple of the deals like Facebook can hear today how they’re going to do group and some of the other things this through acquisitions. Listen in for that you’ve done. a step-by-step case study on how an acquisition deal goes down. Sam Khorramian: Yeah, happy to do it. So again, my name is Sam And if you enjoy the show, would you Khorramian. We’re business partners please hit subscribe on Apple podcasts with Roland and Oliver is a guy 51 I started the company with. We run quicker. And something that I learned a real estate brokerage with over a hanging out with you, Roland, is that thousand agents. We started it about acquisitions of media, acquisitions of seven years ago. Essentially what we company, just acquisitions in general did was we switched up to the way real are some of the most predictable and estate brokerages were run. We’re a scalable ways to grow your business. hundred percent commission shop So we’ve purchased a really large instead of traditionally real estate Facebook group. We’ve purchased a brokers will have agents on a split. few brokerages. We’ve purchased parts So every time they make a dollar, of a marketing agency, a software a broker’ll usually take 20, 30% of company, all of these things we’ve it. We pay them a hundred percent done most of them with no money or commission, but they pay us $300 a very little money down. And some of month. And then in addition to that, them, we did put some in, but it’s all as we own an ancillary group of different you’ve learned with Roland, it’s all the businesses that support the real estate art of the deal and depends on where transaction. So we’re doing not just the the seller’s at, where you’re at and brokerage side, but we have escrow. work backwards. We have a marketing agency, hard money lending, all sorts of different So one of the things that we’re most things that we’ve surrounded the real focused on for the past year and estate transaction with. And we were moving forward is finding more of fortunate enough to be on the Inc. 500 these companies right now. We’re list, top 35 fastest-growing companies, sending out letters to brokerages all three years in a row. over California. Just seeing if they’re interested to talk more. I’ve even told Roland Frasier: So cool. Really cool. So you this, but I can’t say the name, but Sam, would you talk a little bit about there’s a broker in L.A. that I’ve had some of the things that Big Block has the biggest business crush on. And acquired and tell us the story, the he reached out to me a week ago and walkthrough? wants to work something out. So now we’ve just executed NDAs and working Sam Khorramian: What I learned early through that. So I’ll say that my biggest on is that as the business got bigger, aha before I did my first deal was the wake that the business created, I thought that you had to have big imagine a big ship, a big ship is pockets that you were ready to deploy awesome, but the wake that a big ship capital from in order to take down creates creates a lot of opportunity. these deals. And after working with And as we started to make wake on them with Roland it’s amazing how our journey and our path, a lot of many deals are out there that don’t opportunities started to not just show require you to write big fat checks and up, but it showed us that there was a give you very predictable growth. lot of opportunity for us to expand 52 Roland Frasier: Sam, let’s talk about a were you putting yourself out there as few of them. Let’s talk first about with an investor or were you letting people the Facebook group, that’s a traffic know? How were you creating that asset and you identified that. Why inbound deal flow in that kind of area? would you have wanted a Facebook group? What was your objective in Sam Khorramian: Great question. going out and looking for that? I’m very vocal online about looking to invest and acquire businesses. About Sam Khorramian: Something that I every couple of months, I’ll do a post learned in the Mastermind and in our on all my platforms saying, “Looking meetings with you is that we’re always to buy businesses in the real estate trying to gather media and attention. industry. Always confidential. Reach So if we could buy the media, then out and let’s chat.” And one of the we control the media and control the most recent ones just came from that attention. So that started to become post. I did a post. I said, “Looking to very apparent and attractive to us. And buy real estate brokerages. Let me the guys that ran this group ended up know if you’re interested. Everything’s reaching out to one of my friends who confidential.” Within five minutes ended up connecting us and they were one of my biggest competitors, that’s looking for a possible exit. literally across the street, sat me in an office and said, “Bro, I’m so ready to be Roland Frasier: I want to cover first out. Give me a good deal. I’ll give you the finding, so let’s just say generally, a good deal. I just want to ride off into because a lot of people have a the sunset.” That’s literally what he challenge with, how do I find these said. Facebook groups or these YouTube channels or whatever I want to buy? So So I’m always positioning myself. If how did you find the Facebook thing? I’m on podcast, on my social, if I’m on stage, I’m always putting it out there Sam Khorramian: Yeah, so the that I’m looking to buy businesses. Facebook group, we were lucky that it And one of our mutual friends, funny came to us. It was connected through enough at a Mastermind, [Sharon a friend. They were looking for an 00:00:07:24], he said, “Sam, you’re the opportunity and after probably about only guy I know that buys watches for 30 days of negotiating and going back cash, but buys businesses without and forth, we were able to put that cash.” deal together. Roland Frasier: I love that. So you put Roland Frasier: So you said somebody that out there and then you make the came to you, a friend or somebody post and then somebody replies. What brought the Facebook group to you. do you do next? This guy says exactly What did you do though? Would that what he said, “Dude, I just want out. I’m have happened no matter what? Or going to ride off in the sunset.” 53 How do you go from there? What’s “Dude, if you just gave me 500 grand, I your next thing that you say to that would let you take it off my hands.” person? Roland Frasier: He said that to you? Sam Khorramian: So what I’ve found with this is people are really hot and Sam Khorramian: He said that to me. they’re really cold. And then they’re So I knew that that was his number. really hot and they’re really cold. So I’m And I also knew I wasn’t going to pay a big believer that the first thing I need that, but I quickly went back and I to do is get them to trust me and like took his business. I took his numbers, me and want to do the deal with me. all public data. And I took what his And this is something I learned from revenue inside of my company would you. We’ve done some deals together look like. And I broke 35% of it off. So and you weren’t overbearing. I assumed I’m going to lose 35% of the customers or the agents. You made me trust you, like you, want to do the deal with you. So my first Roland Frasier: Is that based on step, whenever possible, if they’re in experience or how did you come up the area I try to get together for lunch with that number? or drinks or whatever. Right now I’m doing some of these just over Zoom, Sam Khorramian: That’s the average where I’m talking to them. So my first in brokerage acquisitions. So on gig is I want to get them to drop their average, it’s 35%. The ones we’ve guard because I think that if you’ve done have been way better than that never sold a business, your Spidey because our model is so compelling. senses are up a little bit. Am I going to But I always work it at the 35%. So I get taken advantage of? Is this going to went back, I knew his number was 500. be a fair deal? How does it work? I took his roster. I took his production. I broke 35% off, plugged it into my So with the first guy I just sat down model. So even at the 500 grand, I was with him and I said, “Tell me why you like, “This just makes too much sense want to sell? Where do you want to to not do.” go? What’s next for you? What caused this? Why me?” And he made it really Roland Frasier: So you knew right off easy. He was like, “Look, I run another the bat that plugging that into your real estate company. We do property existing company, as what we call management. I want to focus on that. a tuck in, you’d have a pretty quick I’ve been doing this for so long. I’m payback on that in about what? Nine tired.” And I said, “Okay, well, I’m very and a half months-ish, 10 months? much interested.” And something that I do with all these deals is usually Sam Khorramian: Yeah, and frankly, you don’t get to the numbers in the for a business like this, I would be okay first meeting. This particular guy said, if it took me a couple years to break 54 even on it. But this one, it was just the 500,000 is a little bit more than I want right numbers, the right place. So we to be. Originally, I was at 300.” It wasn’t landed at a $400,000 number. a simple, five-minute convo like this. There was a lot of back and forth, but it Roland Frasier: Tell us about the was in a single meeting. negotiation to get to the 400. He said 500, but you didn’t say yes right away. Ultimately I said, “Look, I can go to 400, You said... but I’m going to need your support in the transition and helping me Sam Khorramian: So it was pretty keep these people in my company funny because he went cold, like they because they trust you. They’ve been always do. working with you.” So it was just communication. I just kept following Roland Frasier: That’s so good too, up and I made it friendly. I think the for everybody who’s on here to hear fact that I said, “Hey, I have this big because it’s like they only get better, check for 300,000 I want to give you,” right? I’ve never seen a deal get worse it just made him feel like, “All right, this when it went away. It always comes is the real deal.” So that’s how that one back than it was. Okay, so when you went down. say it went cold, he said the number’s 500. You got the data. You ran the thing. You found out what you had. Did you come back and make an offer “ at that point or have a conversation or I think the fact that I said, “Hey, what? I have this big check for 300,000 I want to give you,” it just made Sam Khorramian: I was trying to get another meeting. I was like, “Hey, I him feel like, “All right, this is worked this stuff. Let’s sit down and the real deal.” start talking numbers.” And he was – Sam Khorramian like, “Okay, in two weeks.” And then, “Okay, after we schedule.” And he just went back and forth. Finally, one ••• day, it was at the end of the night, I was just like, “Man, I got to get this Want the full episode? Want to subscribe done.” So I Facebook messaged him to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier? and I said, “Hey Dude, I have a really big $300,000 check I want to give you. Click here! When can I write you this check?” And he said, “I like the way you think. Let’s get together next week.” So I went back. I met with him and we just went back and forth. I was, “Look Dude, 55 Episode 209

How to Manage Wealth Like a Billionaire

When it comes to bad surprises and missed opportunities, what you don’t know can hurt you.

Have you found this already in with Jim Dew business?

I’ve found this and seen this time and time again. So I love it when a guest on Darren Clarke: You’re listening to Business Lunch Podcast can educate Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. and enlighten my listeners and This is your seat at the table. Welcome position them better for success. to the show, this is the producer, Darren Clark, and we have Jim I talked with Jim Dew of Dew Wealth Dew of Dew Wealth Management Management this month. Check out talking with Roland today. If you’re how he’s making what was typically an entrepreneur, that’s looking a ‘billionaires’ thing an accessible to build wealth and manage your solution for entrepreneurs. finances more effectively, you’ll have some key takeaways and insights After Episode 209, you’ll know, in today’s episode. If it’s helpful, please hit that subscribe button and • What Jim learned from his Billionaire you can head over to our website, clients. businesslunchpodcast.com to sign up • The surprising advantages of for our weekly memos. Okay. Let’s get his millionaire model above the stuck in. traditional billionaire’ Family office’. • The Insurance mistake many Roland Frasier: Hey everybody, entrepreneurs fall prey to. Roland Frasier here. I’m excited • Tax advantages that Entrepreneurs to have, as my guest today, the often miss. immutable Jim Dew. Jim is the founder, I guess he’s co-founder because his ••• wife, we were just talking about his wonderful wife Mimi, helped with the big idea, which we’ll get into in a minute of him doing this. So I’ll say co- founder and CEO of the Dew Wealth Group, right Jim? 56 Jim Dew: Dew Wealth Management. for entrepreneurs, typically who have successful businesses, who are doing Roland Frasier: Dew Wealth more than a $1,000,000 of revenue Management. Welcome to the show. and really an idea I stole from a billionaire family in New York and Jim Dew: Thanks Roland, great to be found a way to make it priced where here. entrepreneurs who are doing more than a $1,000,000 of revenue can Roland Frasier: Wonderful to have actually afford the planning and the you. So normally we get to do these services that the billionaires afford just in person and I would love to get with because they have a ton of money. you in person, cause you share my affinity for wonderful lines, but alas, we Roland Frasier: That’s awesome. And are separated by... You’re in Park City so you call it Fractional Family Office? right now? Jim Dew: I call it The Entrepreneur’s Jim Dew: We are in Park City. We’re Virtual Family Office, that’s actually our staying out of Scottsdale which is... trademark. no skiing, but much better than my home of Scottsdale which is about, last Roland Frasier: Okay. And tell me a I checked, I always forget this. I think little bit about what is a family office it was a 1000 degrees yesterday was and how does that work? the [inaudible 00:02:07] . It’s just an estimate, but it was very hot. Jim Dew: Sure. So a family offices is where a billionaire will hire all Roland Frasier: Yeah, it basically just the needed tax, legal, insurance says tilt on the thermometer at that and investment professionals, point, right? attorneys and accountants as full- time employees working for that one Jim Dew: Right. It is not meant for billionaire and his family. And that way human conditions. all the professionals are coordinated, the efforts are put together with a Roland Frasier: I love it. Well, I wanted clear vision of what the family is trying to, you’ve got a fun story and I love the to accomplish, and it creates all kinds transition from working for other folks of smart decision making and good into working for yourself. Would you outcomes. kind of give us, number one, just tell us a little bit about what you’re doing Roland Frasier: So basically you’re right now, and then let’s go back and saying that what you’ve got is the same talk about how you got there. thing for non billionaires. Is that fair enough? Jim Dew: Sure, absolutely. So what we do is we build virtual family offices Jim Dew: That’s exactly right. Yeah. 57 And we’ve priced it so that an years of doing that, I learned how entrepreneur can get these types of the sausage was made with these services for as little as hiring a full- brokerage firms, broker dealers, time $10 an hour employee, and on insurance companies, and banks. the high end, hiring a full-time $28 an hour employee. We try to put it And I had this revelation and that in those terms, but really it’s pricing was that really these systems were things to get the same kind of services not set up for the end client getting and there’s ways that we do it to avoid good advice. And really had a falling the cost that billionaires incur to do the out with my manager at the time same thing. over something they were pushing down the retail channel, and had Roland Frasier: Okay. And how did an argument with him, went home you get into this? You were a billionaire very upset vented to Mimi for about and you said, “Hey, I am tired of having 20 minutes. When I finished, she all these people work just for me, so shrugged her shoulders and said, “You I need to have them work for other need to start your own company.” people too.” Is that what happened? I said, “What are you talking about? This is financial services. This is like Jim Dew: Actually I was a billionaire, big banks and brokerage firms.” And and then I put all my money in Bitcoin, she’s, “I don’t know how you’ll do it, and next thing you knew I had to come but I just know you got to start your up with another way to get the same own company because you’re never planning done. going to be congruent with these big institutions.” Roland Frasier: I like it. All right. And that was the impetus that made Jim Dew: No, I actually wasn’t me start to think, maybe I could a billionaire and haven’t been start my own company and that was a billionaire, but learn from the 1999. So we formed Dew Wealth billionaires. And really my story starts, I Management in 1999, and then went was a public school Math teacher. And through all the things that you go then for one year I did door to door through a business owner, learning sales while I was finishing my MBA about things like payroll and hiring before I discovered financial services. and firing and computer expenses and And I actually have some great lessons software and IT, and all this stuff that I learned from my one year of door to you learn as you go along, in addition door sales that we could circle back to giving advice to our clients. to if you want to. And then I got into financial services and really wanted The next big thing that happened is, to help people, wanted to do the right I decided, hey, I’m an entrepreneur. thing, learned a lot about how the And with that, I wanted to serve companies worked. And in my four entrepreneurs. So we specialize in 58 working with entrepreneurs, which nimble and we can also use some has been a big game changer for us. professionals and experts that don’t For one thing, I don’t have to study all necessarily want to work in the family this stuff, it applies to other people, office model because they don’t want and it’s also really... I just really get that much of their practice dedicated along with my clients and we really to one family where if there’s a falling can relate because we see eye to eye out, they’ve dedicated 10 years of their on that stuff. And then through the practice and they don’t really have the progression, then it was the falling into diversification that many professionals the billionaire family office, learning want. So there’s pros and cons to both, about that and realizing that’s a whole but I like our model. I think it stacks new level of advice. And then we’d up better than maybe some of the been tweaking that model for probably billionaires would admit. the last 15 years. Roland Frasier: What are some of the Roland Frasier: That’s awesome. So challenges that you see? Because you tell me a little bit about that. Is the primarily represent entrepreneurs who advice better at the family office level have been successful and I’m sure you or is it just more dedicated or is it see the same issues again and again, better because it’s a dedicated? what are some of the big mistakes or oversights or things that you see that Jim Dew: There are pros and cons. So they’re missing when they come to you the couple billionaire families that I that are maybe things that are hidden know well, we go back and forth, I rib from them that they don’t even know them a little bit because in some ways might be a challenge either now or in I truthfully think our model is better, the future? and I’ll just give you one example because I’ve had this conversation, Jim Dew: Yeah. So there’s some really they say, “Jim, your model is great, but obvious things that seem silly like it’s not as good as ours.” And I said, “I’ll insurance, and you would think people give you one example. If we have to think insurance is insurance and they’ll fire an attorney, you know how easy it get a corporate liability policy, they’ll is for us to fire an attorney, we just say, have their home and auto insurance, “We’re not working with you anymore.” but we find mistakes, and by the way, But for the family office, they have all we don’t sell any insurance, when we the HR issues of the employee who’s advise the clients and review those an employee of the family. things. And so knowing what’s in your liability coverages, knowing how your So there are pros and cons. Family coverage is matched up with your offices, they have a lot of leverage, particular company, is a mistake I see they have a lot of influence and power missed a lot. And a lot of times these because of their wealth, so that’s an insurance agents, they have thousands advantage, but we can also be very of clients, and so they’re using 59 the same model for every saw one recently where the CPA firm entrepreneur business owner, and was incorrectly aggregating. And we yet every business has nuances about brought the client to a new CPA firm the risks and the things they have to who was able to restate past returns protect against. So that’d be one thing, and put $150,000 in the client’s pocket. would be insurance. Roland Frasier: Can you give me an Another big thing is taxes. Many example, because I don’t think a lot of entrepreneurs have a CPA who I would people know a lot of the things that call a tax historian. And these are the you just said. So give it in dead simple accountants that look in the rear view to understand for me. mirror, they tell you where to put all the information, they fill out the forms, Jim Dew: Yeah, absolutely. So the they do the tax returns, they tell you 199A was passed in the Tax Cuts what you owe in estimated taxes next and Jobs Act in 2017 and it allows a year. And really entrepreneurs need 20% deduction on qualified business what I would call a tax planner and income from a flow-through entity, like having set an accountant, maybe a an S-corp or an LLC. And then there’s a tax attorney, you’re very familiar with whole bunch of provisions about when tax attorneys, who can put together a this applies and when it doesn’t. good plan that’s proactively looking for, hey based on the P&Ls this year, what Roland Frasier: So give me a scenario, can you do this year to reduce your just because you know this so well, for taxes? So those would be two big ones you it’s just like, eh, da da da da da da I see. da. But so let’s say, give me a scenario, let’s say I like hypothetical. So I’m an Roland Frasier: Are there areas that entrepreneur and I have a business you see commonly that are big tax and it’s making a $1,000,000 a year, advantages, that people are not taking let’s say, and now what, when does this advantage of? apply? What’s my flow-through thing and all that kind of stuff? Jim Dew: There are a lot. And so when we do tax planning, I always Jim Dew: So it depends on whether say, “You want to go deeper on your you’re what’s called a services tax planning.” That’s defer, eliminate, company or not. So if the company is arbitrage, pay now, and then later based on your likeness or your talents and reduce. And so coming up with and skills, then there’s income limits strategies, both simple and complex and other things that prevent you in all those areas is really important. to get the deduction. But one thing And I’d say one that we see sometimes that we’ve seen CPAs do is splitting mistakes on is the 199A deduction. the company into more than one This is the 20% qualified business company. So if there’s one company deduction. And we’ve seen, we just based on your likeness, like you’re 60 an influencer or a coach, but then part take the deduction. And by the way, all of your company is not based on that of this requires good accountants and by splitting it up, you can actually get attorneys to coordinate this kinds of some of that 20% deduction that you stuff. wouldn’t get otherwise. Roland Frasier: Yeah. I just, it’s helpful. Roland Frasier: Okay. So now let’s I think for everybody to hear, Oh, okay. say I have a $1,000,000 and half of it I didn’t know that existed, right? So is because I’m super amazingly good I might be missing out on this thing. I looking, as everyone knows. And the just didn’t know. That’s the big thing I other half is... or I’ve hired someone think is what you don’t know can hurt to play me, that’s probably more likely. you in terms of surprises that are bad And the other half is because I sell a and also in missing opportunities that program, right? Something like that, it’s are good, that even the government a software sale or something like that. has built in for you to help you. Right? Now I’ve got a half a million dollars of income. What could I do? Jim Dew: Yeah. And let me give you one example, a nuance about a lot Jim Dew: If that qualifies for the QBI, used to be, if you have a flow-through you get a 20% deduction. So that’d be a entity, the game is you want to keep $100,000 dollars deduction. If you’re in your income as low as possible, but a 45% marginal plus state tax bracket reasonable because you don’t want to that would put $45,000 in your pocket. pay the extra Medicare tax over that. So in this case, though, one of the Roland Frasier: Okay. So, and it’s just tests, depending on how you fall and a deduction. Just, it’s just a deduction your income and the kind of business for just randomly, almost. I just says, you have is based on W-2 wages. So I can take a $100,000 of that income now it actually might make sense in and I don’t have to include it basically some situations to pay you yourself a effectively. What am I getting a higher salary to get a better qualified deduction for? business deduction. So it creates nuances. And this is something that Jim Dew: Yeah. So the reason why it’s your CPA should really be on top of, in the tax law is because the corporate but then there’s a lot of tax planning, tax rate was cut dramatically on games things that a lot of CPAs are not aware like C corpse. And so to make the of that are legal, that you could be law more fair, they created this tax doing. deduction for flow-through entities that are not corporations, LLCs and S Roland Frasier: So what you saw it as corps. So, that’s really the reasoning an opportunity in the market to kind of behind it. But sometimes people aren’t layer your expertise and your broader correctly taking the deduction, or knowledge over all of these experts. they’re not looking for creative ways to And because you’re coordinating all 61 those experts for several people, you home rather than using the Ritz find different opportunities that you Carlton. hear about from them, which then can be applied to everybody else that you Roland Frasier: But you can’t get $200 represent. Is that right? a gallon coffee at your house. I mean, you’re going to have to go to the Ritz Jim Dew: Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll give Carlton. you an example about coordination. So for example, a client buys a home, Jim Dew: That’s one of the enjoyable a primary residence, and the CPA benefits about running an event there. doesn’t know until the next year, when they get the mortgage interest to take Roland Frasier: What else? So what a deduction on the tax return, they are other things that entrepreneurs didn’t even know about that principal should be thinking about that you find residence being purchased because that they don’t? we’re involved in everything, we know that, and we might say, “Hey, you Jim Dew: Well, I’d say that the three might be able to use something called main outcomes that entrepreneurs the Augusta rule, which is 280A in the miss that billionaires get right, is tax code, where you can actually rent first the infrastructure. So having your house to anybody for 14 days a absolute confidence in your team year, tax free. But as a business owner, of professionals, that’s number one, you can rent it to your business for number two, maximizing your wealth, 14 days a year, it’s tax deductible to both inside and outside your company. the business tax free income to you. Often entrepreneurs are really focused And then that can put money in your on growing their company, but you pocket. But without that coordination, also want to build wealth outside your the CPA finds out next year, and even if company. And then the third piece is the CPA knows about the Augusta rule, having a plan for sustainable wealth you’re going to miss that tax year and because it’s a different skillset to build the benefits that you could have had in businesses and make money than it is that year. to manage money and have a plan for sustainable wealth. Roland Frasier: Yeah. That’s a good one. I know that’s one is particularly for Roland Frasier: Okay. So let’s talk people that are doing events at their about, can you dive into each of those houses and things like that, right. It three? Just a hair more. makes a lot of sense. Jim Dew: Absolutely. So when I talk Jim Dew: It does. It’s an easy one. And about infrastructure and having the it’s in elimination category, because right team of professionals, often I you’re really eliminating taxation by see entrepreneurs have this thing, I using your house or your vacation call it a wealth wheel. And so picture 62 a wheel and you’ve got your advisors managing those in an effective way, around the edge of the wheel and or you have to find someone to take most entrepreneurs over their that spot for you to manage those lifetime, they’re going to pick up an professionals on your behalf. attorney, an accountant, an insurance agent. And it’s either because a friend Roland Frasier: Cool. And how about recommended them or they met the secondary? them at some social event and they have these different professionals. Jim Dew: Maximize your wealth both And when we step in and we look at inside and outside the company. I that wheel, it’s usually what I call a would like to say that you get rich financial flat tire, because guess what? by being concentrated in a business, They’re not all A-players, they’re not but you stay rich by being diversified communicating and collaborating on outside of the business. And too the entrepreneur’s best interests. And often, entrepreneurs are waiting for the worst part is the entrepreneurs in the big exit that doesn’t happen or the middle, trying to manage all these something goes wrong. So while you’re relationships, when the entrepreneur, building your business, you should number one, doesn’t have the time, be siphoning money off outside your but also doesn’t have the expertise, business in really three main areas, doesn’t speak the languages of tax, real estate, stocks and bonds and legal insurance and investment on a private equity. And depending on what regular basis. you like, maybe it’s all real estate, or maybe you’re unwilling to sell private So what we like to see is make sure equity, you’re only in businesses. And they’re all A-players and we have a way of course you’re smarter than anyone of betting them and analyzing those at buying businesses with no money professionals. We don’t just say, “Do down, but you have, I mean, how many you like them? And do they return your businesses are you invested in or do calls?” But there’s actually ways you you own right now? can vet these professionals and then make sure that they’re collaborating, Roland Frasier: 36. that they’re being held accountable for their work and their work product. And then we put ourselves in the middle so that, because we do speak tax, legal “ insurance and investment on a daily Maximize your wealth basis to coordinate that. So thinking both inside and outside about it from an entrepreneur’s the company. perspective on the infrastructure, you either have to be what we call – Jim Dew the air traffic controller, where you have excellent advisors and you’re 63 Jim Dew: Perfect. So you don’t own which I love to listen to by the way, one, you own 36. So you’re diversifying I wasn’t talking to my buddies in the outside of your core business, gym, I was focused on doing what he building wealth outside of that. So told me to do. So you can hire people maximizing inside and outside and to create a compelling focus and a making it automated. Because if you path to financial freedom, but you’ve expect in 10 years, you’re going to got to actually either hire someone or look back and have all this money figure out a way to do it yourself. So outside your business. You have to do that’d be the sustainable wealth piece. it intentionally with a compelling focus and make it automated. So it happens Roland Frasier: Okay. You have even despite yourself. written a really good book, which I have read that covers a lot of this Roland Frasier: Absolutely. And then kind of stuff. Would you tell us a little what about the third thing? bit about it and how we might get our hands on it? Jim Dew: Yes so having a plan for sustainable wealth, and this first Jim Dew: Sure. It’s called Beyond a requires understanding what are your Million, The Entrepreneur’s Playbook values, your goals, and your important to Expanding Wealth, Freedom and relationships. And then you have to Time. And it’s got a lot of the stuff I’m have a compelling focus for a path talking about in here. I wrote the book to financial freedom and know what through Tucker max, who you know, that looks like. Now, you don’t have and Tucker said to me, “Don’t write a to come up with this on your own. book that pretends to tell people stuff, When Arizona was shut down and and then they have to hire you, or they we couldn’t go to the gym, I know a have to go do other stuff to figure it guy, he’s a personal trainer, and he out, put all your best ideas in there.” said, “Hey, Jim, I’ve got a private gym And that’s what I did. I’ve got a lot of I can get you into, but you have to really good ideas in there. I like to think hire me, you have to work with me I’ve gotten some ideas since I wrote the as a personal trainer.” And I’ve been book, but it really lays out my story and working out in the gym for 30 or 35 the story about the virtual family office years, and I’ve never had a personal and how you can learn more to create trainer. I said, “I know how to do this. one for yourself or the components I don’t need a personal trainer,” but I that you may want to utilize that I’ve had no option. So I hired him. created for the virtual family office.

Two weeks later, I looked back and Roland Frasier: Okay. And what’s I realized I had the best workouts I’ve the best way to connect with you to had in 10 years. And the reason why is get that? I don’t know if you have a he created a compelling focus for me. podcast or social or how do people get I wasn’t listening to Business Lunch, ahold of Jim? 64 Jim Dew: Yep. So one way is, and we actually created a nine question quiz to help you see where you are in your wealth building process. You can get that by going to makerichreal.com. You can take that quiz if you would like there’s opportunity to visit with us, if you qualify, if you fit what we do, but you can get the quiz either way, you don’t have to call us or talk to us to get the quiz. And then also our website is dewwealth.com. If you want to learn about us, go to D-E-W-W-E-A-L-T-H. com. Two W’s in the middle. And then of course, we’ve got the, on Amazon, you can get the audio or the book. And I actually did the audio book myself, which was a lot harder than I thought, but a lot of my friends said, “People want to hear the author speak.” So I did it myself.

Roland Frasier: Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you for taking some time from Park City to come into our zoom boxes and our podcast today and hang out with us and really appreciate you taking the time to do it and look forward to getting together as soon as we are able to connect in person again.

Jim Dew: I would look forward to that as well, Roland. Thank you. Good to see you.

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