Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
WEDNESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 1938
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
1774 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.
University Lecturer in Statistics, Cam bridge Univer-sity, J 931-31. Author of- ' 'l'he National Income, 1924-1931.' 'National Income and Outlay.' 'Investment in Fixed Capital in Great Britain.' 'National Income in Australia' (>vith Mr. J. G. Crawford). 'The Economic Position of Great Britain' (with Professor Pigon). 'Industrial Britain' (with Professor Hilt on). Frances Wood Pri7eman of Royal Statistical Society, 1929. Winner of International Prize Com petition of 'Institut fur Weltwirtschaft,' Germany, 1935. Lecturer to Melbourne, Sydney, and Perth Universities. Business qualifications- Formerly chairman of Silexore Ltd. (paint manufacturers). Formerly sales consultnnt to United Steel Companies, Sheffield. Formerly consultant to Harold Whitehead and Co. Mr. Clark 's salary is £1,800 per annun1. ''I advise the hon. member to improve his mind by reading the books I have men WEDNESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER, 1938. tioned during the forthcoming recess.''
Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. G. Pollock Gregorv) SERVICE OF MR. E. A. FERGUSON. took the chair at 10.30 a.m. · I\lr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Premier- AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT. '' 1. ·was Mr. E. A. Fergnson in the public service continuously from 1913 until BRISBANE CITY COUNCII, ACCOUNTS. he was appointed to the position in the Itir. SPEA.KER announced the receipt Agent-General's Office in London~ If not, f'rom the Aurhtor-Gencral of the second annual how many years was he out of the service~ report on the books and accounts of the "2 What position did he occupy in the Brisbane City Council being for the year public service immediately prior to being 1937-38. appointed to the Agent-General's Office, and what was his salaryi "3. What is his salary now?" QUES'I'IONS. APPOINTMENT OF MR. COLIN CLARK TO PUBLIC The PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smitl1, SERVICE. Mackay) replied- " 1. No. He was not a member of the Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asl;:ed the Premier-- Public Service for the period from 4 April, 1929, to 29 January, 1935. " I. Was Mr. Colin Clark appointed to '' 2. Liaison officer. Premier and Chief his present position from the public ser vieef Secretary's Departmc-nt, \Vith salary at the rate of £575 per annum. '' 2. What are his qualifications and '' 3. £600 per annum.'' salary~''
The PRE])HER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, UNEMPLOYl\IENT, 12 NOVEMBER, 1938. Mackay) replied- )Ir. NICii:LIN (lVIurrumba) :-~skecl the " 1. No. Secretary for Labour ancl Industry- '' 2. M.A. Degree of Oxford University. " What was the number of (a) intermit Member of Staff of Economic AdYisory tent relief workers and (b) persons receiv Council, Cabinet Offices, \Vhitd1all, ing ration assistance in the weeL ended 12 1930-31. instanH" Questions. [16 NovEMBER.] Primary Producers', &c., Bill. 1775
The SECRETARY FOR ~liNES (Hon. ''The second test will be carried out by T. A. Foley, Norman by), for The SECRE the New South ·wales Department of Agri TARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY culture at its research farm at '.rrangie. (Hon. M. P. Hynes, Townsville), replied- Details of the lines on which this second '' I refer the hon. member to the report test will be conducted have not been fur of the Director for Labour which will be nished.'' ta.bled this morning. ' MINISTERIAL EXPENSES. ANNUAL REPORT OF DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR RETURN TO ORDER. AND INDUSTRY. The following paper was laid on the lUr. MACDONALD (Stanley) asked the Secretary for Labour and Industry- table:- Return to an order made by the House on '' When will the annual report of his 11 August last, on the motion of Mr. department be made available to hon. Walker, showing the expenses of Minis members 1'' ters for 1937-38. The SECRETARY FOR lUINl<:S (Hon. T. A. Foley, Norman by), for 'l'he SEC'RE PAPERS. TARY l<'OR LABOUR AND INDUS'I'RY (Hon. M. P. Hynes, Townsville), replied- The follo>ving papers were laid on the table, '' The report will be tabled this morn and ordered to be printed:- ing.'' Report of the Director of Labour and Chief Inspector of Factories and Shops for the RELIEF WORK AND RATIONS, TOOWOOMBA year 1937-1938. DIS'J'RICT; FAMILY INCOME COJ\IPU'l'ATIOXS. Eighth Annual Report of the Under Secre lUr. YEATES (East Toowoomba): I tary, Department of Labour and Indus desire to ask the Secretary for Labour and try, upon the Operations and Proceedings Industry whether he has an answer to the under The Income (Unemployment following questions which I addressed to him Relief) Ta.x Acts, 1930 to 1935, being for on 18 October and again on 9th November:- the year 1937-1938. '' 1. In respect of the Toowoomba Dis Fifth Annual Report of the Bureau of trict-(a) how many persons were (i.) Industry, being for the year 1937-1938. on intermittent relief work, and (ii.) draw Report of the Department of Harbours and ing ration relief, in the week ended 17 Marine for the year 1937-1938. September last; (b) the corresponding figures for the week ended 15 October, The following papers were !aiel on the 1938; (c) what new work to absorb the table:- unemployed in full-time employment has Ordcr in Council, dated 10 November, 1938, been started since 1 September last~ under The Sugar Experiment Stations '' 2. Will he explain briefly the method Acts, 1900 to 1938. adopted in computing the relief allowance By-laws Nos. 368 and 369 under section 134 where there is some family income~'' of 'fhe Railways Acts, 1914 to 1934. The SECRETARY FOR ]}liNES (Hon. T. A. Foley, Normanby), for The SECRE INDUSTRIAL CONCILIATION AND TARY FOR LABOUR ANn INDUSTRY ARBITRATION ACTS AND OTHER (Hon. M. P. Hynes, Townsville) replied- ACTS AMEND::\fENT BILL. '' The hon. member will find the fullest INITIATION. information that he requires in the report.'' The SECRETARY FOR JlliNES (Hon. T. A Foley, Normanby): I move- PREVENTION OF BLOWFLY INFESTATION. '' That the House will, at its present sit ]}~r. JIACDONALD (Sta·nley), without ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the not1ce, asked the Secretary for Agriculture \iVhole to consider of the desirableness of and Stock- introducing a Bill to amend The Industrial '' Has he obtained any further informa Conciliation and Arbitration Acts, 1932 to tion in connection with Dr. 'Watt's method 1937, The Profiteering Prevention Act of for the prevention of blowfly strike by 1920, and The Coal Production RBgulation colouring the breeches of ewes blue~' ' Acts, 1933 to 1935,' in certain particulars.'' The SECRETARY l<'OR AGRICULTURE Motion agreed to. AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) replied- PRHIARY PRODUCERS' ORGANISATION " I have recently received a reply from AND MARKETING ACTS AMEND the Council for Scientific and Industrial MENT BILL. Research, indicating that arrangements SECOND READING. have been made for two tests of Dr. Watt's method. One will be carried out at Gil The SECRETARY FOR AG.RICULTURE ruth Plains, Cunnamulla, where 100 wrinkly A~n STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, sheep will be treated with blue material, Barcoo) ( 10.40 a.m.) : I move- and 100 equally wrinkly controls will run '' That the Bill be now read a second with them. time.'' 1776 Primary Producers', &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.
I do not think that I can add very much to tion, and so forth. The council is entitled the explanation that I offered this Assembly to fees and allowances, but we must avoid as yesterday when introducing this Bill in Com far as possible any duplication of effort in mittee. The principles of the Bill I think these matters because no doubt the boarils were not only adequately appreciated by hon. concerned have left nothing to chance but members of this Assembly but were corn have aecum'ulated important data, and their mended by both sides of the Chamber. It is, files will be found to contain much useful I think, a logical expansion in the desirable information about market surveys, costs, awl direction of a policy of organised marketing. other things of importance. It is, of course, particularly a Committee Bill, and it might be widely discussed on that Generally speaking, the Bill will provide a stage. I content myself therefore, with mov sound foundation for the work of the boards, ing the second reading.' and with the encouragement of the Minister ancl in co-operation with the State depart Jtfr. ll!AHER (West Moreton) (10.41 ments concerned, I am certain that a very a.m.) : In speaking to the second reading of valuable contribution will be made to tLe this Bill I cannot add much to what was said organisation of primaTy industTics, anc1 to tl.l() on the initiation stage yesterday. The Bill expansion of those repTesented on the counc1l. represents a determination by the Minister to There is a wide sphere of work to be done adopt the advice offered by members of the in such matters as the expansion of tradG Opposition when The Primary Producers' in this country and oveTseas, the reduction Organisation and Marketing Act of 1926 was of costs and the general efficiency. If thesa under consideration, and the hon. member for Mirani moved an important amendment. The matters are keenly and intensively studied by hon. member for Wide Bay quoted that amend the membeTs of the council very big things ment yesterday, and it sets out very clearly can be achieved. I think the Bill lays the what the members of the Opposition in that foundation for important wOTk, that the indus year felt about the whole problem of the tries concerned are alive to that fact, that organisation of primary producers. they will elect the most capable men to repT~ sent each agricultural group and the counc1T The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: will in some respects be a minor farmers' He did not read us the names of the members parliament where af_f~irs of agTic~lture may who supported it. Perhaps you will do so. be discussed, and deCisiOns of great Importance may be reached in the interests of those Mr. !IAHER: I have not got the names coicerne<;l. of the members who supported it but I have not the slightest doubt that it m~t with very lliJ:. !IULLER (Fassifern) (10.51 a.m.): wide support. Certainly it was in agreement I listened with a great deal of interest to the with the view of the then Leader of the Minister's explanation of the Bill yesterday, Opposition, Mr. Moore, who has always felt and I can appreciate some of his reasons that the primary producers could be organised for the reorganisation of the Council of Agri only on a commodity basis and not on the cultuTe that is proposed. He indicated veTy plan that was adopted by the Government in elcarly that the chief reason for the reorgani the principal Act. sation was that the present organisation was almost bankrupt, and I understand thnt unless The reason for the l.Iinister 's change of some change is made quickly, it will be very front, I think, has been a common-sense recog difficult to balance the accounts within the nition that more effective organisation of the next few weeks. primary producers could be carried out by adopting the sound principle of organisation The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: on a commodity basis. That is the position already. Perhaps the genesis of this action was the Mr. !IULLER: While I appreciate the desire of the dairying industry in particular difficulty confronting the organisation, I am to be organised on a commodity basis in particularly anxious to conserve the rights of preference to the conditions that have ruled the rank and file organisations. I received hitherto. Dairying interests lmve been dis a letter a few days ago from a local producers' satisfied for some time with their standing association in my electorate, which I propose under the present scheme of organisation. to read in order to explain the fear that Th~y met and decided on a certain plan of local producers' associations ha,·e concerning actwn. I have no donht. th~t. "thov n"~""- their f!!t"!l!'e. Thie re~cl~tic!l ;;r2.e C:l!'l'ied by tuent members of the Coun~il- -oi Ag~·i;~]t~;e the Rathdowney association- have been dissatisfied, too, and the thing came '' That this association is not in f:wour t.o a head. The ~1inister has very IYisely of the reorganisation of local producers' hstened to the advice of practical men con nected with the industry. associations as it is considered that splitting up local producers' organisations into I have not the slightest doubt tha.t on the various branches of farmers' organisatim1s new basis excellent men will be elected to is likely to weaken them in their efforts.'' represent the important agricultural industries listed in the Bill. Y estcrday, I ask eel the ::\linister if the effectiveness of the local producers' associa An important provision is that the new tions would be impaired by the proposed council shall study markets and accumulate reorganisation of the Council of Agriculture, data with regard to mal'lmting, processes, and but he replied definitely ''No.'' I was very costs, and shall disseminate certain informa- pleased to have that assurance, nevertheless, Primary Producers', &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1777
I notice that clause 6 of the Bill repeals means that the dairying industry finds about section 8 of the principal Act, which' says- £5,000 per annum for the maintenance of the ' 'The council may, on application as Council of Agriculture. If the industry is prescribed, register as a local producers' to continue this contribution I am wondering association any association of primary whether funds will be provided to maintain producers.'' rank and file organisations. I feel sure that the Minister does not intend I believe I am right in stating that about to abolish the rank and file organisations, 90 per cent. of the total levies collected at because to do so would automatically wipe out present arc used for the purpose of maintain· the organisation as a whole. However, I ing rank and file organisations. Provision .cannot see any provision in the Bill to estab will require to be made for the continuation lish an organisation on a commodity basis. I of this financial support, hut I see no pro· refer chiefly now to branches of the Dairy vision for it in the Bill. It will be a great men's Association, which I believe the pity if the local producers' associations go Minister expects to be the outcome of this out of existence, but they cannot possibly Bill. Of course, other organisations may also cany on as at present. I am in a position be formed on a commodity basis. to reply to part of the inquiry from the Rath clowncy association, which is probably not The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: aware of thP financial position of the associa You should have a look at section 30 of the tions as a whole. principal Act. There are other objections which a number }Ir. }fULLER: I have examined section of local producers' organisations have, one 30. I notice that subsection 8 of section 30 of which is the appointment of the Minister of the principal Act gives the producers of as president of the organisation. any commodity power to estab~ish a com modity organisation notwithstandmg that the The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: section itself deals chiefly with the sugar There is nothing in the Bill to state that the industry. Minister shall be appointed president. The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: lUr. ~fULLER: The Act provides that the That section is not being repealed. :Vrinister and Director of Agriculture shall be members of the Council of Agriculture. There JUr. l1IULLER: I notice that_. Su_bsect~on must be some regulation making it obligatory 8 of the principal Act, whiCh IS bemg for that organisation to appoint the Minister repealed, deals with the establishment o~ loc_al as its presiflcnt. If that is not so I should producers' associatio~1s.. Clause 6 of ~his Bill like an explanation as to why the Minister abolishes those associations by repealmg sub is continually appointed president notwith section 8. It is not clear to me whether an:y standing the fact that the council has objected provision is being made to establish some to that practice. urganisation to take their place. As far as I am able to discern, the central body-the The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Council of Agriculture-is protected, and The Council of Agriculture has not objected. sufTicient funds are to be raised by levies 011 the industry to maintain it. 'l'here does not ~Ir. lUULLER: They have not objected? Then they were beaten by one vote-it was appear to me to be an organisation to prese~ve contact between the local producers' assoCia that close. tions and the various commodity organisa· The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: tions. This Bill sets out to abolish local That is absolutely untrue. producers' associations and does not make definite provision to establish something in I\Ir. I\IULLER: It has been a very close their place. I do not know what the Minister vote. may have in mind in that connection, but The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: if some provision is not made there is a It has not; try and be fair for once. I have clanger that producers will lose the only been elected unanimously every :year by the organisation they have. Council of Agriculture. Personally, I should not like to sec such Mr. MULLER: I will accept that explana organisations become defunct. If the pre tion. sent s:ystem is not perfect-and we must admit it is a long way from being perfect The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: because the organisations cannot pay their It is not an explanation; it is a fact. way, and it is only a matter of time wlwn they must go out of existence-we should lUr. I\IULLER.: I wish to be fair to the endeavour to set up some other system in its Minister. If it is not the Council of Agri place. If the Bill merely provides for the culture, it is one of his other executive bodies retention of the Council of Agriculture, what connected with the organisation. I am not provision \Yill be made to establish rank and prepared to dispute that. I do know there file org:misations''' The Minister should give is an objection by the organisation at any us some explanation on this point. rate to the Minister's retaining that office. It is felt-and perhaps the complaint is justi I can only speak of the dairying industry, fied-that the Minister might nse political as I am not conversant with others. The influence as president of the organisation. Minister told us yesterday that the dairy An effort has been made bv the Minister and industry contribute 70.7 per cent. of the total in the principal Act to place this organisa precepts issued under this legislation. That tion on a non-political basis. \IV e appreciate 1778 Primary Producers', &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. that, because after all the problems of the If provision is not made in the principal producer are of a non-political nature and Act for a levy on the producers to maintain there is no reason why they should be influ the rank and file associations I should like enced by any political bias. I see no reason the Minister to explain how he contemplates nevertheless why the Minister should hold continuing that part of the organisation. If that office as presidmt of the council. you ask the producers or the Butter Board or any other commodity board to impose a The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: further levy for the purposes of paying a The Minister does not hold that office by precept I think you will meet with a good virtue of legislation; the Minister holds that deal of opposition. Personally I think the office by virtue of unanimous election. proposed council should be maintai~ed at coi~ Mr. llfUJ"LER: If that is so-- siderably less cost than the Council of Agn culture has been maintained in the past. I Tlle Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: wish the Minister to correct me if I am You know it to. be so. wrong. lUr. MULLER: If that is so, the Council Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: of Agriculture has the ball at its own feet I should spend the whole of my time correct and if it wishes to alter the position it car: ing you if I corrected you every time you do so. I did understand that the principal ·were wrong. Act provided for it. ll'Ir. MULLER: I have to admit that I Tlle Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: have not followed the regulations as closely I amended the principal Act some years ago as I might have done. so that the position would not be an ex officio one. Tlle Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Then yon come to this House and make a Mr. ltiULLER: Now we are getting down misstatement. to the real facts; you are right and I am right. Mr. ::liULLER: I am not here for poli tical purposes, but I am concerned as to what The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: this organisation will cost the producers of I have never been president of the Council Queensland. All we ask, and I think I am of Agriculture except by their unanimous justified in obtaining a reasonable explana vote. tion from the Minister, is what he actually Mr. MULLER: You admitted-you told ·wants. The insinuation that I am endeavour the House-- ing to misconstrue his statement is quite wrong. I have never come into this House lUr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. with that intention, but I want a clear under member to address the Chair and not the standing as to what the position really is to Minister. be. If the Bill is a shot at the organisation lUr. lliULLER: I was trying to ascertain of producers I am opposed to it, and if the what the position was. Minister intends to amend it, it is only right that he should tell us ho1v he proposes to do Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: so. The suggestion that I have come here You know the position. from time to time and endeavoured to mis construe his statements is not correct. I lUr. lliULLER: The Minister has now have not done anything of the kind. I want explained that the original Act did provide a clear-cut understanding before I commit that the Minister should hold that office. myself to supporting or opposing this Bill. Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: If we fail to keep the rank and file of the That did not apply to me; I never held the organisation going it will not be very long office under that section. before the main structure will collapse, and llir. MULLER: It is now explained that if the Minister does not know that he should. there was an amendment of the Act that It is not the Council of Agriculture that sup provided that the council should elect its ports the organisation but the rank and file, own president. and I should like to see provision for a fund or a pool to preserve it. Will the Minister tell Tile Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: this House how the Council of Agriculture That always obtained during my occupancy will do iH After a study of the Bill I see of the chair. no means of doing so. Funds are being Mr. MULLER: The fact remains that provided for the maintenance of the Council the Minister has held the position as presi of Agriculture but not for the the main dent during the life of the Council of tenance of the local producers' associations, Agriculture. and if they are allowed to go out of existence, before very long commodity organisation will Tl!e Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: cease. We have had certain experience over By election. the past six months in particular, and there Mr. MULLER: Even if it has been on is also the weakness of human nature to that basis, I think there are grounds of contend with. objection among a number of primary pro Some of these 28 bodies connected with the ducers. I should not like to introduce a Council of Agriculture were prepared to live party question into a farmers' organisation, -I make that statement definitely-they were because it is harmful to do so. The Minister using the funds of the Council of Agriculture has given his principal reason. to keep their own commodity board going and Pn:mary Producers', &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1779 without making any contribution to it. That comprised representatives of the dairymen, is unfair. ~he dairyin,g industry and two or fruitgrowers and sugar growers. th_ree ?ther mdustries have kept up their con tnbutwns and we propose to continue ours. With the establishment of the commodity boards, interest in the organisation of the W ~ propo~e to collect our own money and are {jmte Willmg to make our contribution to the Council of Agriculture waned and more atten Council of_ Agri~ulture, but, as it is proposed tion was given to the commodity boards, as to reconstitute It under the Bill, with about is shown by the figures quoted by the Minister 10 or 12 seats and only two or three represent yesterday with regard to the decline in the ing the dairying industry, although that indus numbers of associations and members under try will find 70.7 per cent. of the cost, the original system. Last year the Council we shall be hopelessly out-voted. Soon there of Agricultme maclc a determined effort to will be no money to carry on the rank and revive a number of the organisations that file o_rganisations. I do not want a dispute had gone out of existence, ancl although the to anse between the Minister and myself, but organisers met with considerable success, that I want an assurance as to the position. success did not wan-ant the continuance of the organisation under the existing system·. _I have adopted the same attitude on every ~Ill presented during this and previous ses I think that the establishment of a primary Sions. If I am satisfied it is in the interests producers' organisation on a commodity basis of the producer or progress generally I am will be a wise move, and that it will be of prepared to support it, but I want the assur material help in the organisation of the ance that all is well before I give it my primary industries in the State, but, like the support. hon. member for Fassifeni, I am worried as to what is going to happen to the local pro JUr. _NICKLIN (Murrumba) (11.9 a.m.): ducers' associations. There IS a need for some reoro-anisation of the_ Council of Agriculture and ki~dred organi I agree with the hon. member that if we satwns. 'l'he council was established in 1922 ~llow our local producers' organisations to or ther~abouts, and its form was excellent. die out the whole organisation will become top I~ PI:ovided f?r local producers' associations, heavy and will collapse. The local producers' district councils, and the Council of Agricul associations arc the life-blood of the ture, the farmers' parliament as it was whole organisation, ancl I believe that one rightly _termed i;r t~ose days. ' Later, with of the factors that led to the pr·esent top commorbty orgamsatwn, the Council of Ao-ri heavy state of the Council of Agricultme ~ulture drclin_ed ~n influenc_e and grow~rs, has been that that body has allowed interest IJ_lStead of bemg mterestod m the organisa in local producers' associations to wane to tion as a whole, tended to concentrate on the a considerable extend. I am of the opinion commodity they were growing and the board that with the newly-constructed Council of handling it. Consequently from about 1932 Agriculture it will be essential that local the power and the interest~ of the Council of producers' associations be revived and kept Agricultmo and kindred organisations has going as Yital units of the whole organisation. been dying. If this is not clone the Council of Agricul· ture will be only a body representative of the \Vhen the Council of Agriculture was first commodity boards and not truly representa established there were no commodity boards. tive of the primary industries of Queenslantl. It wa' really from this first o~ganisation that the commodity board legislation originated Local producers' associations in districts and the system grew. I remember the establish which produce more than one commodity will ment of this organisation vividly. I remember, be difficult to organise and keep going. For too, how it was welcomed by the producers of instance, suppose a clistr·ict embraces dairy Queensland. I happened to be the secretary ing, maize, canary seed, and wheatgrowing. of one of the first local producers' associa It would be impossible for a local producers' tions, and I know that at that time in a association to deal with each one of those district in which a number of forms of industries. primary production were carried on there was great difficulty in running local producers' That is a problem that I think it may Le difficult to solve, but it will have to be solved ~ssocia tion meetings in such a way as to keep all sections of the producers interested. an cl something will ha V!' to be done t~ maintain a live interest in the local producers' For example, the dairymen did not want to associations, or the whole thing will collapse. listen. to the ;voes of the pineapple growers, nor did the pmeapple growers want to listen The Council of Agriculture, as it will be to the troubles that were begetting the dairy constituted, will be a better body than the men. Consequently, after the establishment present one,, and will represent almost every of commodity boards, the interest in local prin1ary-producing industry in the State. The producers' associations waned considerably boards in years past have been doing a good because the growers turned their attention \York and the men on them are fully conver from the local producers' associations to the sant with. their own branches of production. commodity boar-ds that were established to l<'inance is certainly ver-y important. It deal with their own industr-ies. I admit, r,as been unfair to call on the dairying indus however, that the first district council that try to carry over 70 per cent. of the total was cstabl ished in our district, consisting of cost of the organisation of the Council of elected repr-esentatives of the various local Agriculture. We might also say that the producers' associations, was truly representa whole of the local producers' associations tive of all industries in that district. It have been carried on by the dairying industry, 1780 Primary Producers', &c., [ASSE}IBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.
e-xcept in the Stanthorpe district, where they be expected to carry on off ectively. Hardly have been financed by the deciduous sectional a commodity is produced in this State that group of the Committee of Direction of Fruit can be etliciently handled within 12 months. Marketing. If tl1e DTganisation of local producers' associatio11s is to be put on a The Bill also provides that if a certain commodity basis instead of the former general section of the producers desire to institute a basis, file Butter Board will be 1·esponsiblc comn1odity board and a poll is taken on the fo:· its section, the Maize Board for its section question, they be prepared to back their and so on, with some composite anangement opinions by providing a part of the cost. That in Tegard to general local pToducers' associa is a wise provision, because there are always tions that may deal with more than one some sections of the community who are section. prepared to ask for polls-provided they cost nothing-merely in an endeu,vour to upset the I should like to hear some explanation by efficient vvorking of a commodity board. the JYiinister in the Committee stages as to the position in regard to the constitution of local I think that the proposed reorganisation producers' associations in the futme, because of the Council of Agriculture will be of benefit that is very important to the success of the to the primary producers generally, and apart organisations. from any doubt that I may have concerning the constitution and the conduct of local iUr. Walsh: They would not be able to producers' associations I think the measure carry on on a voluntary basis, I take it? should be satisfactory to all concerned. Mr. NICKLIN: I have had considerable Mr. EDWARDS (Namango) (11.22 a.m.): experience of local organisation both on the I have no doubt that, after reviewing the voluntary basis and the basis of assistance activities of the Council of Agriculture, the from the central body, and I can say that Minister realised that it was not doing the carrying on the organisation on a voluntary work that it was intended to do, and this basis is very difficult. Y on will get some Bill is an endeavour to bring about condi sections of the producers who will accept the tions whereby the council will be able to benefits but will fail to meet their financial control the organisation on a broad basis in responsibilities. I think that the most effective the interests of the State. form, particularly from the point of view of the officials of the associations, is some Even with the new organisation tiHJ l\1inister arrangement such as existed under the Council is bound to meet some difficulties. In the of Agricultme, whereby each secretary got a first place if a number of commodity boards small honorarium, stamps, and rent of hall. are included in one organisation, some are That is preferable to voluntary organisation, bound to be not vitally concerned with the but the matter is one for the newly consti activities of each other, but more concerned tuted council to decide. about their own prospects. For instance, organisations controlling the wheat industry I am one of those who believe that it is and the sugar industry may be clamouring for a good thing to have the Secretary for Agri the best price for their respective com'modities. culture and Stock as a member of the Council There should, however, be a central or con of Agriculture. Whether it elects him as trolling organisation to consider these all president is purely for the council itself to important subjects without prejudice or with decide. I think that the Minister can in that out being unduly influenced by the sectional way come into direct contact with the members interests of any one group. That was the and it will lead to better business. I under practice in Queensland in the old days, and stand that in the past, although the Minister it became very prominent in Victoria, when; has been elected president, he has presided a huge organisation known as the B.P.C. only at the annual conference, HovYever, I handled almost everything on a co-operative think it is an advantage for the :Minister to basis in the interests of the producers in that be a member of the council. State. That was of considerable advantage As to thel time a commodity board should to them. They conducted stock sales, handled operate, I think that to extend the term to jute goods direct from Calcutta and other three years is a very wise provision indeed. places; in fact, did all manner of things in A commodity board that remains in office for the interests of large groups of producers. only 12 months is at a disadvantage. We have nothing like that in Queensland Tlie Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: to-day. The abolition of local producers' The m·embers always have one eye on the next associations will put it further off than ever. election. Although local producers' associations have not done all that they might have done, some lUr. NICKLIN: Yes, and, in addition, have done much good conscientious work at it cannot adopt a long-range marketing plan, a great deal of expense to themselves. They because that may be upset by a new board at are deserving of all possible credit for it. Of the end of 12 month~. course, there are always persons in every organisation who are quite prepared to allow The S~cretary for Agriculture 111nd Stock: things to drift. I cut my difficulties by half when I extend the term from 12 months to three years. We must always look at these matters from the angle of the farmer, for if that is not Mr. NICKLIN: I can thoroughly under done his sympathy cannot be obtained. The stand that. A board constituted for 12 months old Farmers' Union, which was a strong body is not a business board at all, and can hardly in South-Eastern Queensland, was regarded as Primary Producers', &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1781 a very efficient organisation. It was a cute land met representatives of '\V estern Australia move of Mr. E. G. Theodore to introduce in Melbourne on some matter connected with legislation to create local producers' associa sugar and they got a very poor reception tions to supplant that organisation. Unfor indeed. I mention that to indicate the need tunately, after the local producers' organisa for organisation. Everyone realises that all tions were created, they were used time after these commodities are of immense value to time for political purposes. the State, and indirectly to the other States; and if by bringing them all together we 1\'Ir. Wals:l1: Not by this party. develop a give-and-take attitude we shall lUr. EDWARDS: I actually contested accomplish something of great advantage to elections against the chairman and secretary the primary-producing interests of Queens of this new association. land. I hope the orga.nisation will be built up on that basis and that wherever the Minis The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: ter finds influences being used to bring about That does not necessarily make it political. the dovmfall of this organisation he will take immediate steps to check it; and that wher I\'fr. EDWARDS: Of course it does. If ever suspicion arises he will be able to remove an aspirant in the political sphere requires it. Sometimes one man whose interests are help, what does he do~ He gets into such an not identical with the object of the organisa organisation to use it for his own political tion can succeed in breaking it up. purpose. We should therefore be very careful to prevent any suspicion of politics from As one who has been in public life for a being attached to the heads, of these organi considerable time, I often wonder why it is sations. the primary producers cannot come together to a greater extent than they do. They should I will be candid and say that I do not know be able to organise themselves fully. Their of one instance where the Minister called to interests are identical in many respects, and his aid one political argument as president it is regrettable that they do not appear to of the Council of Agriculture, but the fact be able to combine as effectively as they remains that his very presence on that body should in order to overcome the very many gives it a political flavour. vVe have party difficulties associated with their means of politics in Queensland. That cannot be livlihood. denied. 'l'he Minister, as president of the Council of Agriculture, could tactfully swing JUr. Bedford: Local jealousies. opinion on the Council of_ Agriculture . i;n Mr. EDWARDS: The isolation of their favour of the ideals and pohcy of the politi position. cal party whose cause he espouses. ::lir. Bedford: Hard work, no time to It has been said by men who have been think, and local jealousies. present at meetings of the Council of Agricul ture that when the question of the Minister's Mr. EDWARDS: They are not able to occupying the position of president has arisen meet as often as industrial workers are to the statement has been made that they should discuss matters that affect them. They are above all things avoid antagonising the Minis able to meet perhaps only once a fortnight ter. That is the prevailing feeling. It is or once a month, and there seems to be a lack justified to some extent, because if the organi of the cohesion that is essential to building sation is against the Minister and its resolu up a sound organisation. There are so many tions are antagonistic to his policy it will not things that concern all producers equally that get anywhere. I have always argued that all should be organised. the Minister, while extending his sympathy to the Council of Agriculture, should allow it If I understand the position correctly, to deliberate in its own way and in his when the new Council of Agriculture meets it absence, and that the council should subse will be a body that will be actuated by the quently put its conclusions and requests before desire to do the best for the commodity boards, him. That would be preferable to the present but there are so mmw other interests position. I have nothing against the Minister. to be taken into eonsider:ition. It has been I recognise that his enthusiasm in the interests said that the handling, distribution, and sale of our primary industries is very creditable of farmers' products is a very important indeed, but the fact remains that the Act matter. I am prepared to admit that, but provides that he must be on that organisation. after these things have been done successfully I think it would be far better if he was left and everything has been got from the market out. No matter how unbiased the Minister for the producers that it is possible to get, may be his presence gives the .organisation a he will not be much better off if the costs political touch, and that is not desirable in of the things he has to buy for his own a farmers' organisation of this description. needs and the production of his crop eat up all his profits. Costs and expenses must be If all farming commodities could be dealt reduced wherever possible, and that is why with by one compreheneive organisation agri· I have mentioned the huge organisation that culture would be placed on a very sound basis. at one time flourished in Victoria, but was By having representatives of the various broken up by the suspicion of political boards on the Council of Agriculture we shall influence purposely introduced, because it had enable each to learn the difficulties of the become an enormous concern handling every other, and much good should result. thing. I remember that on one occasion the repre Mr. Bedford: And because it interfered sentatives of the sugar industry in Queens- with the commission agents. 1782 Primary Produce1·s', &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.
lUr. EIHVARDS: Exactly. They gradu cal problems than with the real difficulties ally wormed their way into it and so it was confronting the farmer. The Government who broken up. I emphasise that the Minister set up the Council of Agriculture perceived should give all the aid possible to bring these that the main problems of the farmers were commodity boards together in one huge those connected with production and market organisation that will watch the interests of ing. The Primary Producers' Organisation the producers generally. It is immaterial and Marketing Act of 1922 dealt with those whether they are called local producers' asso problems specifically. In order to give effect ciations or by any other name so long as to that Act the Government of the day were, they are helped wherever possible to build I believe, more generous to the farmers than up an honest organisation and to overcome any other Government in Australia have ever some of the difficulties that beset them. If been to any section of primary producers. we could clear their minds of any suspicion They provided the funds for establishing the that they were being used politically or organisation. After they had made available exploited by those interested in the handling £85,000 for the purpose of establishing this of their products, we should be going a long organisation, and upon finding that that sum way tov.-ards obtaining conscientious organisa was not enough, they provided another £40,000. tion amongst them. As a result of that expenditure nearly every major commodity in Queensland is organised ]fr. f'OLLIXS (Cook) (11.38 a.m.): I on a commodity basis. support the Bill before the House because I think it is important that we should make There is no need for me to deal with the the org:misation what it ought to be. We work of these commodity boards, because what must recede from the position that the they have done is well known to all hon. mem organisation has degenerated into during the bers. I propose to deal briefly with what the last few years-and I use the word '' degene local pTOducers' associations have not clone. •rated'' with the fullest acceptation of thP They were supposed to deal, inter alia, with meaning of that term. The commodity problems of agriculture on the farms. It was boards are working properly, but the local thought that by bringing those bodies together producers' associations have not been fulfill various problems would be di;scussed and ing the functions that it was believed they recommenf1ations as to how to improYe produc would when the organisation was formed. tion and eliminate tlw possibilities of attacks by pests and diseases would be made. One This organisation goes back over many would expect that that would be the main years. About 1922 a Labour Government function of a loeal producers' association, but introduced legislation that has resulted in unfOTtunately we found that they did not act much benefit to Queensland and its primary in that way. That is the reason why the producers. I speak with much knowledge of Minister is introducing this Bill to organise the organisation, because I have been a mem agricultural industries on a purely commodity ber ever since its inception, and as a member basis. of almost every different phase of the mganisation. I believe that I was the first The local producers' associations were given member of a local producers' association in eveq opportunity to meet. They were financed K orth Queensland, and since then I have by means of a. levy, and they were given repre been associated in various ways with the sentation on the Council of Agriculture. In Council of Agriculture and the commodity fact, I believe that they were given perhaps boards. too much represe11tation on that body, and they were certainly given the fullest freedom I was surprised to hear the hon. member and opportunity to give intelligent expression for N anango suggest that the establishme·nt to the problems confronting the producers. of this organisation was partly a political move. He said that the Government of the To my mind they have absolutely failed to day made a shrewd political move in bringing do that, and that is the reason why the Minis about that organisation. I think it is wrong ter is now altering the system of organisa that he should make that remark, unless, of tion. It is found throughout the Atate that conrse, he means that it is a, shrewd political the best men in the farming community are move for any Government to do the •right thing elected to the commodity boards, and the -and they are a pretty bad Government who reason for that is obvious. The farmers perceive the right thing to do and then refuse choose men of integrity with the necessary to do it. Therefore, such criticism is, to my business acumen to carry on the marketing mind, entirely unwananted. There is not the of their product, because that is their bread slightest doubt that at that time there was and butter. Those boards have done that dire need for some form of organisation that work very well, and the boards are now to would bring the farmers together, give them be brought together in the Council of Agri an opportunity of expressing their wishes c;ulture. intelligently, and put into their hands a means I believe that the Minister is right in of giving practical effect to their wishes. giving two representatives to the Butter Prior to that there was in Queensland what Board, because it is a larger organisation was kno"l':n as the Farmers' Union. I believe than any oth<:>r COJYIJllOdity board in the State. that that was more of a political organisation The Bill does not deny to the individual than anything else. It had a chequered exist farmer the right of expression of his thoughts. ence for probably about 15 years. It then There is nothing to stop the butter people, died of inertia, because it was not getting the for instance, from having organisations of farmers anywhere. It dealt more with politi- dairymen if they believe that to do so will Primary Producers', &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1783 be in their best interests, but the Council of the best thought in the farming rommunity Agriculture will not be responsible for those will come together in the main organisation. organisations. I believe that the council will be reconstituted in a more effective way. Mr. ~Iuller: Who will finance them? The hon. member for Murrumba feels that lUr. COLLINS: There is nothing to pre the farmers are going to be abandoned as to vent the butter people from financing them their local organisations, but I have referred in exactly the same way as the sugar people to the organisation of the eanegrowers, and finance their organisations. The sugar people I also understand that the dairymen will have a very complete organisation, express carry on a local organisation. That refutes ing the views of the millers and the views of the contention that the farmers will have no the growers. Every commodity board means of expressing themselves to the new could do the same thing, but we are not com Council of Agriculture. I am satisfied that pelling the Council of Agriculture to organise the council will be nwre effectiYe and will farmers who do not want to be organised give a more intelligent expression of opinion which the old Act virtuallv did. I think it i~ on behalf of the farmer. In the past few entirely ·wrong to expect the Butter Board to fanners a ttendeil meetings of local producers' find the great amount of money that it has associations because thev discussed matters found hitherto. At the same time a great that had nothing whatev~r to do with farm many farmers felt that they should not have ing, and this led to the failure and the to pay levies to support organisations that eventual abandonment of the system. they believed were doing no good. I know that amongst the better class of :.'tlr. ltlulle,r: Are you not afraid that the farmers there has neYer been any opposition district organisations will break down~ to the Minister's occupying a position on the 1Ur•. COLLINS: Not if they are necessary. Council of Agriculture. While the hon. mem I believe that the commoditv board is the ber for N anango gave due credit to the best organisation, because the farmers them Minister for many of the good things that selve~ at their annual meeting and any other he has done in the interests of agriculture, meetmg they choose to have can discuss all at the same time he thought that he should the pr_oblems rel.ating to their industry. They not be a member of the council, or if he was can grve to thcrr rep1·esentatives instructions a member that he should not take a very that can, in turn, be set before the whole active part in its deliberations. council.. The farmer is going to be repre The part played by the Minister in the ~ented m a much more businesslike wav than past has been brought about by the council m the past. • itself. It elected the Minister as president It !s .well known that the local producers' because its members recognised the value of assocratwns have degenerated into grievance working in close touch with him. He has a associations. The better class of farmer wide kno·wledge of the requirements of agri wo_uld have nothing to do with them, because culture, a wider knowledge than probably any grrevances were the only thing discussed at other one man in the State, because he has their meetings. to deal with all phases of agriculture. Every thing that affects the wellbeing of the ltlr. ;)luJler: I do not think that is right, primary producers comes under his purview, you know. and the majority of things that they require Mr. COLL!NS: It may not be so in the to do must be done through him. 'rherefore, hon. member's area, but I am speaking in a is Northern electorates who were actively asso Nevertheless, a great mistake has been ciated with or held prominent positions in made by the farmers themselves-! am various farming organisations. expressing only my own opinion in this respect-in that the best type of leader is JUr. JUuller: That is not true, either. not always selected. A man who has much Mr. WALSII: I know that it has been to say and as it were gets up on the soap going on. I am frank enough to say that box, becomes Yery popular with the rank and even in my own locality an attempt was made file of produce-rs and is eventually elected to have an organisation I was associated to an important position. It is not long ·,vith made political, and I took the stand before he is taking advantage of that posi that I din not ca•re whether it was the Labour tion to further his O\Yn interests rather than Party or any other party, I would refuse to those of the producers generally. We might allow politics to be bron There is another phase of the same ques levy on the primary producer.'' I am still tion. Hon. members say that the local oltl-fashioncd enough to believe-and I think producers' associations may be abandoned. most hon. members in this House concur in They are bankrupt. my view-that the primary prollucers oug!Jt Some question has been raised about the to haYe some right to express an opinion as capacity of the local producers' associations to whether they should pay a levy to main to carry on. Let me tell hon. members that tain an organisation goYerning their o',\·n three years ago I raised this question in industry. \Vith that object in view I have tal in this way and would be able to express Clauses 7 to 12, both inclusive, as read, their opinion to the Council of Agriculture. agreed to. Of course, the problem now arises of the legal standing of such bodies. The Act Clause 13-New section 14A; Marketing made provision for local producers' associa Board to insure against defalcations by tions but there will be no official recognition agent- of these new bodies. 'l'hat might constitute one of the weaknesses of the scheme. It is )lr. ltiOORE (Aubigny) (12.41 p.m.): I important-and this cannot be over-stressed should like a little more information upon that there must be a relationship or connect this clause. It says- ing link between the work of the Council of '' Every Marketing Board shall insure, Agriculture and the growers combined in a and keep itself insured at all times, with body in each locality. the Insurance Commissioner or some insu-rer within the meaning of The Insur Mr. WaJsh: What is to prevent that from ance Acts, 1916 to 1934, against the failure being done~ of any agent of such board to duly pay )Ir. 1\IAHER: I recognise that section 3,0 to the board all moneys so payable by him of the principal Act, referred to by the as such agent.'' Minister, gives power to organise on the same ·when he was speaking, the Minister gave an lines as in the sugar industry. The question instance of an agent in one of the Southern is how far the Council of Agriculture is States who had defaulted to the extent of prepared to go. £16,000. I do not quite know what the Mr. Walsh: That is its responsibility. definition of ''agent'' is. lUr. iliAHER: That is so, provided that The Premie•r: That definition give,s the growers through the local organisations trouble occasionally. are taken into account and their influence is ltlr. JtiOOI~E: Yes, and the limit of the felt in the governing bodies. I:fl that is so, insurance is also an unknown quantity. I have not very much objection to the aboli tion of local producers' associations, and I The Premier: The definition of an agent m·ade really no reference to the problem under this clause would be the power of an vital as it is-because I felt the position was agent and the duties and responsibilities of being met by the formation of growe1js' an agent under ordinary mercantile law. associations in the various dairying, pea,nut, and maize districts, and so on. The Secretary for Agricultu,J.'e and Stock: As a matter of fact I asked the Parliamentary Of course, one of the difficulties will be in Draftsman to give me a definition of a district such as Kingaroy in whic-h maize and ''agent.'' peanut growing and the dairying industry all l'Iro JUOORE: I understand that when LOCAL GOVERNMENT VALIDATION OF the product is sold overseas through reput POWE•RS BILL. able agents, the insurance premium covering the product from the factory to the market SECOND READING. on the other side of the world is very small. This is a different thing altogether. Here The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND goods are being sold to a person or company HOJlH~ AFl<'AIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, through an agency in the South. Ithaca) ( 12.50 J:l.ln.) : I move- 'rhe Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: '' That the Bill be now read a second If you are selling to an organisation, that is time.'' not covered by this. There is ;10thing that I ea n add to what I 3Ir. lUOORE: The agent is responsible said on the initiatory stage of the Bill. We otherwise there would not be the loss. I are again circularising all local goyernment am going on what the Minister says; I do clerks, calling their attention to the matter, not know of these losses. with the idea of preYenting any further mistakes. I think that with the experi2nce Thir. Walsh: See the Auditor-General's report. they have had, and another reminder from the department, there will be no further 1\Ir. JUOORE: If the marketing boards trouble. ha Ye to insure against all the opportunities for default over a whole year the premium Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (12.51 may be very heavy, and I want some informa p.m.) : There arc one or t'vo features of the tion. Bill that I am not partic·ularly enamoered of. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE As to the shire of J\faroochy, I understand ANH STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, that originally the people in the benetited Barcoo) (12.46 p.m.): The application of the area had a vote on the question of a tramway word ''agent'' is very limited in this Bill, system, and the vote was carried. The tram and really deals with the delegation of autho way was built, and the cost greatly exc-eeded rity to sell and fixes the principal with the the estimate. That cost was never liquidated. same liability as if he had done the act Eventualh-, the tramway "·as pulled up and himself. It boils down to a maxim that is sold, but, despite that, a great part of the conveniently translated into English for me debt remained. The rouncil was anxious to '' He who acts through another acts through strike a rate to coYer the loss, and to spread himself.'' Consideration was given to the it over the whole of the shire. The people meaning of this word before it was put in the outside the benefited area had no chance to Bill. Many of the boards do not sell solely protest against the construction of the tram through their agents. It would not cover a way, and received no benefit from its construc storekeeper who got a few bags of wheat from tion, and objected to being called upon to the board to sell on his own account. cal'l'y part of the loss. 'rhe Minister received a deputation from them, and, as he refused As far as premiums are concerned, the to entertain their objections, they decided to inquiries I have made indicate that these proceed at law. They applied for an injunc will not make any serious inroads on the tion, and succeeded. After they had won resources of the boards concerned. their case at law the council then decided ~Ir. Nicklin: Would the Peanut Board, that the benefited area should carry 50 per dealing with a reputable firm, Harrisons cent. of the loss and the rest of the shire Ramsay Pty. Ltd., have to take out an insur 50 per cont. This Bill is to validate that ance~ decision by the council. It a pp ears that there is something not quite right about the prin Tlr Minister to introdm;e a Bill that, in effect, of 4d. in the £1, the :\1apleton benefited defies a decision of the court. area has to pay 2d. in the £1, and the rest of the shire 21,d. in the £1. I should like The Secretary for Health and Home the Minister to- explain >Yhy there is a varia Affairs interjected. tion in the mtes paid. JJir. llfAHEH.: It is the function of Parlia I do not know the circumstances comwcted ment to do what it thinks best, but the court with the validation of the water rates in the gave a certain decision based on the law as shire of Douglas. There is usually a story it stood. behind these validations. It may be quite The Premier: We have certain laws but justifiable, but I did not hear the Minister Parliament can alter them if it thinks p;oper. go into any detail regarding the circumstances It is the duty of the judiciary to carry out that led up to the validation. the law as it stands on the statute-book but The only other provision on which I offer if Parliament decides later to alter any' law any criticism is the one contained in the that is its business. ' last clause of the Bill. It says- Mr. lUAHER: It all depends on the '' .... and notwithstanding any ,judgment circumstances under which that alteration pronounced or order made by any court, occurs. We must consider whether an injus judge, justice, or person acting judicially, tice is being inflicted on one section of the and whether such judgment was or shall community. be pronounced or order 11 as or shall be made before, on, or after the passing of The Seci'etary for Health and Home this Act; and any such judgment so pro Affairs: Not at all. nounced or order so made is here by vacated Itlr. ~IAHER: A litigant succeeded at and shall be void and of none effect law, but the effect of that action will be whatever: '' defeated by this Parliamentary enactment. That is a very great power, and it is very The Secretary for Health illnd Home unusual to have such a power in a Bill. I Affairs: If this Bill was not introduced do not think we are justified in giving it. the obligation due to the Treasury would have Why should the Minister take power of to be collected from the whole shire area. that kind? There is an ever-increasing ten Itir. ItiAHER: The Minister is profiting dency for the Government to take dictatorial by his experience with the Maroochy Shire powers and to make legislation water-tight Council, and is taking unto himself in this by preventing appeals. 'rhere is evidence of Bill powers that, I am certain from my it in other directions. The hon. member for observation and experience of local govern Hamilton has been constantly dealing with ment, he will have ample oportunity of exer the clause in Bills that state that regula cising as time elapses. What is the use of tions are not to be questioned in any way proclaiming benefited areas for special work whatsoever, and in this Bill is a fnrther· if the :Minister, because of a certain happen power that disregards the findings of the ing, is going to agree at some time or other court. It provides that ''any judgment so to spread the liability over the whole local pronounced shall bP void and shall have no authority area Under this Bill the Minister effect whatever." We are not justified in is taking power unto himself to deal with any permitting this powerful dragnet clause to be other local authority at some future time in included in Bills vrithout challenge and precisely the same manner as he has dealt without pointing out the danger. This Bill with the :iVIarooc·hy Shire Council. What is deprives certain persons who might be the good of establishing a benefited area if interested of their rights, and there is no that benefited area can be set aside at some justification for doing so. future time by the Minister, and the obliga Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) (2.6 p.m.): This tion spread over the whole local authority~ We know from experience how readily people, Bill is very important as it extends a special with their heart set upon certain works, agree rate to two areas of the Maroochv shire that were not in either benefited a'fca. I to the proclamation of a benefited area. They presume the Minister will give some infor say, ''Yes, we will agree to a benefited area,'' mation on that point when the Committee just as, in the old days, people living along stage is rcached. side projected railway routes gave guarantees in order to get them constructed. \Vith the Let me illustrate the position that could power this Bill confers on the Minister to exist under this Bill. A shire wants a water set aside a benefited area as he deems proper, improvement or any other improvement. A an agitation will arise in various local benefit is conferred on a particular part of authority areas containing benefited areas to the shire. \Vhen a benefited area is gazetted spread the liability over the whole of the it is only the electors in that area who are areas. It is a very dangerous provision to entitled to vote on the loan. In the case include in this Bill. The Minister is taking of the Mapleton and Buderim tramways this power because he feels the time is coming nobody outside the benefited area was allowed when he must exercise it, because of the to vote on the question whether the money demands that will be made upon him. for its construction should be borrowed, but under this Bill after the benefited area has There seems to be some disparity in the been gazetted and a vote of the electors in rate levied on the various areas. The Buderim that area has been taken, the Minister can benefited area is called upon to meet a rate extend the benefited area and place a rate on '1792 Local Government Validation [ASSEMBLY.] of Powers Bill. the shoulders of those people who had no and is deemed to be, in relation to the opportunity of voting on the matter. They undertaking for or in respect to which it had no chance of protesting but are to be was defined a benefited area defined by the made liable for the cost. That is not fair. Minister''-- The benefited area should be clearly defined in the first pla.ce, and also the people who Thir. SPEAKER: Order! are going to receive the benefit and after lUr. J:UOORE: It is not confined to tram the decision has been made, and' the money ways; it applies to any benefited area. has been expended, the liability should not be extended. That is quite wrong but that VVe go on to the next principle. Several is the effect of the Bill. ' people clubbed together for the purpose of bringing a test case. A fairly large deputa JUr. Dunstan: But if it has bee;n done on tion waited upon the Minister as to whether representations made~ the shire council was justified and as to lUr. ~IOORE: But that does not make it whether he would sanction the shire council's any more right. The position was that a going outside the benefited m·ea, spreading certain section of the people desireu the bene the cost over the whole shire. I can under fit and undertook the responsibility of pay stand that the whole shire was legally respon ing for it. They were the only people who sible, and when it came to the collection of had the right to vote. After the money has ~he money the shire had to pay it, so that if been spent and they discover that the benefit 1t could not get it from the benefited area is perhaps not so great as they thought it the general funds of the shire had to be used. "'ould be-here a tramway instead of being The point is that the benefited area undertakes profitable. is a losing concern-other people the responsibility to meet its obligation for who obtamed no benefi~ from the undertaking, a benefit that it receives. In this case the and who had no say m the question of the shire council found it difficult to collect the obtaining the loan, have to bear a part of money from the benefited. area, and decided the liability. That does not seem to me to to extend the rating for the benefited area be fair. over the whole shire. There was one area 60, 70, or 80 miles away. This part of the If a work is going to be a shire matter· all shire could receive no benefit at any time, the people in the shire should have the right and it sent representatives to interview the to vote. The Minister should not have the Minister on the question of the liability of right to sanction the altering of the benefited the residents there and on the question whether area after it has been deelared and after the the council was justified in extending a money has been spent. Under this provision liability to those persons. The Minister did the people in the benefited area could vote in not favour the proposal that was put forwaTd favour of borrowing the money, then, when the by those representatives, and consequently the shire council was. unable to raise enough people in that district contributed towards money from the benefited area to meet the the expense of applying for an injunction obligations of that section of the shire, th Mr. MOO RE: It is an obligation that tramways in that area. Both got into a the Minister puts on them. If the respon difficult position and as they are in different sibility of contributing was to be cast upon divisions the council was able to get a them they should have had a vote as to majority for spreading the liability and so whether the money was to be expended. The the two interested divisions were able to pass benefited area is defined and after the money some of the responsibility on to a third divi is expended people who do not get any benefit sion that had received no benefit at all. If and have no voice in the matter are made there had been only the Buderim tramway responsible for the repayment. probably the task would not have been so easy, The Secretary for Health and Home but the council was careful to bring in the Affairs,: The Government did not extend Mapleton tramway as well so as to assure a the rate at all. The local authority did. majority in favour of the proposal to spread the liability over the whole of the shire. The, lUr. lllOORE: The court in its judgment two divisions that had the tramways were showed that the local authority was wrong, able to outvote the other division which had but now the Government come in to legalise received no benefit and did not even have an what was done, except in respect of one rate opportunity to say whether th0 money should payer. The council had no right to bring be spent. That was a very cute way of doing those people into the area. it, but if these cute practices are to be coun 'l'he Secretary for Health and Home tenanced they will open up very big problem~, Affairs: They were guarantors of the loan. and especially the question whether there 1s any advantage in establishing benefited areas Mr. :il'IOORE: Unwilling guarantors, in local authority areas at all. because the council borrowed the money for a benefited area. If we are going to allow people to manipu late a majority in favour of a proposal by This Bill means that the proclamation of a deliberately creating two divisions to outvote benefited area is of no value whatever other a third division that has received no benefit, than that it enables a part of the community all with the intention of passing some of the to put the responsibility on the whole council liability on to the ratepayers there, it might and to saddle those who could not vote for be possible to obtain a majority for quite a the expenditure of the money with the burden number of purposes That does not say that of repaying it. I do not think that is fair or reasonable. the principle is fair. I certainly do not agree that it is. It is very unfair that after 20 to The Secretary for Health and Home 30 -vears a Bill should be introduced to compel Affairs: What would you do? people to carry a liability in respect of some thing from which they received no benefit, llir. lliOORE: If there is going to be a benefited area, its limits must be retained, and, what is more, about the expenditure on because a matter that is the responsibility of which they had no say. This Bill is to vali the whole shire should be voted for by the date the action that has been taken by the whole shire. council. The Minister said that in a few cases the rates were not struck in accordance with The Secl'e,tary for Health and Home the Local Authorities Act, but to what extent Affairs: You cannot go back 20 or 30 that affects the position we do not know. years. We also do not know the position in con JUr. IUOORE: I am not saying you should nection with the water rates in the Douglas go back when you find out whether it is a shire. Perhaps there are two sides to th.1t success or a failure. If the Minister lived story, too, I thought perhaps that the re;cnne in an area 70 or 80 miles away from the from water rates was being used for ordmary tramway and was called upon to pay a rate revenue purposes and that that action was to because it had proved uneconomic and had be validated. However, the two principles been sold and part of the debt was still in that I have outlined are very wrong-both existence, he would object. the alteration of the benefited area and the The Secretary for Health and Home denial of the benefit of a judgment to certain Affairs: In the last analysis every one of people who helped to contribute tomnc1s the us is the guarantor of that loan. success of a test case. lUr. lliOORE: I know we are, but the lllr. Dunstan: Would you refuse the State has all sorts of remedies before the request of a local authority for this validat responsibility for the repayment comes to us. ing measure W The State would probably accept the respon :i}[r. MOO RE: The hon. member may put sibility of putting a receiver in if a local it in any way that he likes. He is sheltering authority did not meet its obligations, before behind the fact that a ma.iority was obtained, they became a charge upon the taxpayers but it is easy to obtain a majority by getting generally. It would be very unfair if tax two divisions representing benefited areas to payers in other shires remote from the one outvote a third division that has not benefited that received the proposed benefit were called and ne1·er could benefit, and passing part of upon to meet the obligation of paying for it. the liability on to it. That is not right. ::lfr. lhmstan: You are avoiding the fact that the representation comes from the local lllr. WALKER (Cooroora) (2.24 p.m.): authorities. This Bill deals with a troublesome matter in the electorates of the hon. member for :il'Ir. JUOORE: I can tell the hon. member Murnunba and myself and it is a new prob why, quite easily. There happened to be two lem requiring a new remedy. At the outset 1794 Local Government Validation [ASSEMBLY.] of Powers Bill. I should like to explain that the two benefited two tramways, or he may omit certain pa'l'ts. areas are very small in comparison with the The Minister must have that power, because rest of the shire. At the present time the he must satisfy himself whether the inclusio.n liability of the council to the Treasury for of the whole shire as a benefited area lS interest and redemption in •respect of these warranted. The shiTe council must be kept two tramways is about £50,000 and the council solvent, and, therefore, the ratepayers mu~t cannot hope to obtain the necessary revenue meet their liabilities. The question 1s from the benefited areas alone. That is whv whether the present action is Mr. WALKER: It has. Something must extent. There is no hanl ancl fast rule, a be done to help the council or it \Yill not be certain amount of elastieity is necessary. able to carry on. If any hon. members have The Bill is all right. It deals with one of any better proposal than the one we put to those rotten problems that arise through no the Minister, now is their opportunity to fault of a, Government, council or people, but place it befo•re the Minister for his considera because of an alteration in conditions. tion. I do not think there is any sound alternative. The result of the enormous concentration on road construction during the war is that The position is safeguarded because the we have roads competing with our railway Minister reserves to himself the power of and tTamway systems. It then becomes a discrimination by declaring any benefited question of capitalising much of this expen area and the extent of the benefit from time diture, but a council, unlike a Government, to time. cannot do so and therefore has to appeal to· Some people thought that we should do the Government for help. We as ratepayers as other local authorities had done. I need realise our obligations and agree that every not mention names, but some local authorities body, individuals or councils, should pay 20s. have not paid their way for a long time, and in the £1. The method I have advocated is they have been repudiating their debts to the the only remedy for our difficulty as I do Treasury. It is wrong in principle to not believe in following the examples set repudiate debts, and it sets a very bad by some other local bodies, such as repudia example to other shires. tion. I honestly think that the proposal will largely solve this troublesome problem, The obligations of the Buderim tramline is which appears to be almost insurmountable, a heavy one. The loan outstanding is in a way that will scarcely be believable in approximately £27,000, and during the first another five years' time. 20 years redemption payments amounted to about £6,800. It is only fair to say that The SECRET"lRY FOR HEALTH AND during that period the va•rious Governments HO~IE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, granted them moratoriums for five years, Ithaca) (2.38 p.m.), in reply: Hon. members three years, and one year respectively. The should look at this Bill fairly. I pointed same applies to the Mapleton tramway. The out at the initiation stage that Parliament Governments during that period have been was not concerned with the rate levied in very generous and have given them breath any particular local authority area. ing time, but they now find they cannot possibly meet their liability. There is only The hon. member £or Cooroora complained one way to do it. of the unfairness of the rate and although that may be quite true we have no power The area outside the benefited area is in over that. The levying of the rate is the my electorate. 'rhe question is: are we to r<'sponsibility of ihe local authority and i£ allow the shire to go broke, are we going it is inequitable the electors will have an to allow the Ministrr to put the bailiff in opportunity to deal with it in April next. and sell up the assets of the council to The council has levied a rate without legal liquidate the debt, or are we going to carry validity, according to the decision of the out the proposals that we have placed before court, and at the pre~ent time cannot collect the Minister? I do 110t think we have any it. If it does not collect the rate the Govern altemative, although it is unfair to do it. ment have to collect the dues to the Trea 'rhe position is a particularly bad one, and one sury and the only way ;ve can do so would 'that neither the people in the benefited area he to levv on the ordinary fnnds of the local nor those in the areas outside, nor the coun authority. That would ":ipe out all benefited cil are responsible for. The administration areas and actually thos0 outside the bene of the council and the tramways has been fited area who are paying 21c1. in the £1 on sound economical lines. would be worse off if we levied on them to That small benefited area has carried a meet this payment than if we validated the hravy rate, and a liability of £50,000 is, decision of the shire. It would be a case of I am sure, an impossible burden, in addition share and share alike to meet the obliga to ordinary taxes. tions of the Treasury. \Vhether the mte is fair is entirely a matter for the local That is the position in a nutshell, and the authority. best that lYe can do is to support this Bill although we may not believe in every prin ThC' Leader of the Opposition and the ciple in it. Anybody who objects should sug member for Aubigny regarded the wiping gest some method of overcoming the difficulty. out of benefited areas as immoral and wTong. :E'or myself I cannot see any, other than that The Loader of the Opposition is shocked at pToposed by the Secretary for Health and the thought of abolishing a benefited area Home Affairs, and it is being adopted at and putting the rate on the whole of the the request of these people. shire. But that has been done as far back as there was a looctl authority. Benefited A point >vorthy of mention is that if the areas arc frequently varied. vVe have found Minister cal'l'ies out the provisions of this that the hon. gentleman's own Government legislation theTe is nothing to prevent the did it in six instances. No doubt we could people outside the benefited aTea from wait find many more cases. In 1930 the Moore ing on him and pointing out the unsatis GoYcmnu)nt abolished eight separate benefited factory nature of the whole situation. It areas of the Sonthport Town Council and \Yonld then be a question for him to decide spread the rates over the whole of the what areas should be brought in and to wha.t Southport area. Eight benefited areas were 1796 Local Government Validation [ASSEMBLY.] of Powers Bill. wiped out in one hit and the rate was local authority for arrears of rates under spread over the whole of the town. The Local Government Act of 1936, th~ local authority shall 11ot be entitled, and Benefited areas were abolished in the it is hereby declared that the local Widgee shire in 1931, the Cairns shire in authority never was entitled, to l~avc or to 1930, the Gladstone shire in 1931, the Laidley make further claim or demand m respec! shire in 1931, and the Bundaberg shire in of any arrears of rates which ~ad accrue~ 1932. It has always been done. and at times due in respect of the land prwr to sucn it is essential that it should be done. It is sale or acquisition and the land shall be ) )) not possible to fix benefited areas and say discharged of all such rates. that they shall be static for all time. I take it that the local authorities can seize The amendment of the law complained of and sell land at any time for the payment of deals with the power that was challenged rates. I do not know whether it has the in the court with regard to the alteration power then to sue the former owner for pay of the tramway benefited areas. If hon. ment of the rates owing on the land, but I members care to read the Bill they will see understand it has. I have often thought that that this clause applies to section 49 of the that is very unfair. One man, receiving pro, Act only. There are only four tramways bably the basic wage, has a piece of land built under that Act in Queensland. One that is of no value to him, and the local of them is scrapped, Mapleton is on its last authority can garnishee his wages for payment legs, and the other two are still operating. of rates on it. Another man, who has wasted We have always louked upon the Governor in all his money, will go scot,free. People are Council as having power to abolish benefited penalised if it is macle compulsory for them areas, and, as I say, it has already been done. to continue to hold land when they have no further use for it. I do not know ·whether t.hc Motion (Mr. Hanlon) agreed to. Minister intends to alter that state of affa~rs by this clause, so that the local authonty COJ\Il\IITTEE. must sell the land and have no redress on the former owner, or whe'"her a local authority has (Mr. Glcdson, Ipswich, one of the panel e;: been suing· someone after the land was sold. Temporary Chairmen, in the chair.) Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusiv •, al' rea a, The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND agreed to. TIO~H~ AFl'AIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanl~m, Ithnca) (2.46 p.m.): This i~ another .d~:ffi Clause 5-Ccrtain water rates validated culty that has arisen on seekmg the opmwn of counsel. We gave the local authorities lUr. MAHER (West Moreton) (2.43 p.m.): specific power to wipe off rates under th.e The Minister might explain the circumstanc:s Local Government Act, but when a counc1l in connection with the Douglas Shire Counc1l. forecloses for non,payment of rate~ and then Sometime~ these things arc very contentions sells the land it does not legally w1pe off the and we h::n'G no way of ascertaining the arrears against the original owner,, and the 1;casons for this validation. opinion has been expressed that 1t should collect. There might be a good deal of rates The SECRETARY FOR HEAL'fH ANil owing on land not worth the money. ~h~ lan.d HOJJIE AFl'AIRS (Hon. K M. Hanlon, 'might be sold for £1, and the opnnon lS Ithnca) (2.44 p.m.): The Douglas Shire expressed that the council should. collect the Counril provided a water supply for the town rates O'IYing from the owner. Obvwusly, that of Mossman. In arranging its rate it was would be wrong. e\·idently in a bit of a hurry and levied the Tate J,eforc it had the water authoritv estah, Clause 6, as read, agreed to. lislwd by Onler in C' ,uncil. Conse-quently, the rate has been challenged and it cannot Clause 7-Construction of Act; Saving collect it until its action is validated. All rates must be levied at the time of prepara Jir. MAHER (West Moreton) (2.47 p.m.): tion of the budget. The council cannot go I do not like this clause at all. The power back and will not be able to collect theo;c it gives is very drastic indeed, and I often rates if its action is not validated. Actually, wonder what reasons m~ght be found for it struck the rate before it had authority to taking a power of that kind. do so. Mr. Duns tan: Do you want another Clause 5, as reacl, agreed to. yalidating Bill after this ~ Mr. lliAHER: I think that reasonable Clause 6-When arrears of rates dis latitude should be allowed in these things. If charged- an Act is challengeable, the court should be ~fr. NIIDIO (Oxley) (2.45 p.m.): This allowed to express its judgment upon it. clause relates to land that has been sold by The Secretary for Health nnd Home the council for arrears of rates. It mak('S Affairs: We took that clause from Acts it quite clear that no further rates can be passed by the Moore Government-the Land levied. Tax Act Amendment Act and the Income Tax I cannot understand why the following pro Acts Amendment Act. vision has been included in the Bill:- Mr. IIIAHER: It always seems to me ''When land has been sold or not hav, that that is not a proper argument. Because ing been sold has been acquired by the such a thing was done on a previous occasion Local Government, &c., Bill. [16 NoVEMBER.] Backwa-rd Persons Bill. 1797 does not make it right for all time. I did not additional rate to make up for the amount know it occurred in our Acts, but if it did avoided by the group. Where an Act of it still seems to me to be too great a power Parliament has been successfully challenged to retain. A Bill should be allowed to stand Governments have always adopted the prac {)n its merits, and if it is challenged by any tice of passing amending legislation to give interested party the court should not be pre· effect to the original intention of Parliament. vented from exercising its judgment on the issue. I do not think that there is anything Question-That clause 7, as read, stand right, fair, or judicious about a clause of this part of the Bill-put; and the Committee kind, which seeks to make the Bill absolutely divided- ·water-tight. AYES, 32. 'l'he Secretarv for Health and Home Mr. Bedford Mr. King Affairs-: Every :LI,.ct of Parliament should Brown Larcombe be water-tight. Bulcock Marriott Cl ark Mull an Col! ins O'Keefe .il!r. _;jJAlH~It: I do not altogether agree Conroy Pease with that. Everything that the human hand Copley Riordan touches or that the human mind conceives is Dash Smith liable to some error. Duggan Tayior Dunstan Walsh Foley , Wellington The Secreta,ry for Health and Home Gair Williams, H. Affairs: If all Acts of Parliament were Hanlon , Williams, T. L. absolutely water-tight thert would be no liti Hayes Hilton Tellers: gation. Hislop Healy lUr. lfiAHER.: We know that Acts are not Jesson Keogh always water-tight, but the aim is to make NOES, 14. them as water-t~ght as possible, but not to Mr. Clayton Mr. Nicklin the extent of preventing someone from Dart Nimmo -challenging an injustice or some inequity that Deacon Russell might present itself in the operation of the Edwards Walker Macdonald law. I do not see why we should prevent Maher Tellers: any person who feels that he is a victim of n Moore Daniel legislation of this kind from stating a case Muller M assay to the court and winning it if he can. At PAJRS. least he should have a sporting chance of AYES . NOES. .,-inning, but here the door is not only locked Mr. Cooper Mr. Brand but is bolted and barred against him, too. ,, Hynes Plunkett 'rhe Secreta,ry for Health and Home Resolved in the affirmative. Affairs: That is right. What is the good ·of having it locked-- Bill reported, without amendment. :rtfr. 3IAHI<:R: I do not hold with that at all. It is very difficult to say how any THIRD READING. piece of legislation may affect a person, and Bill, on motion of Mr. Hanlon, read a third if we are going to agree that a principle of time. this kind slmll be contained in every Bill nobody will have any rights at law at all. We may as well dismiss the judiciary, and BACKWARD PERSONS BILL. simply say there it is and there shall be no appeal from Caesar-Caesar hath spoken. I SECOND READING. will not have that at all. Tile SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOlUE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Ithaca) (3.1 p.m.): I move- HO .!tiE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) (2.53 p.m.): A similar provision was '' That the Bill be now read a second incorporated in the Income Tax Act and the time.'' Land Tax Act by the Moore Government. I cowred the provisions of the Bill very care They protected the rights of a litigant who fully when I initiated it. The Bill is the had received a judgment in his favour but complement of th€ Mental Hygiene Bill and ruled out all prospective litigants. That is provides the machinery for attending to back exactly what we are doiilig here. The person ward children and giving the Government who succeeded merely discovered a loophole power to establish the required institutions in the !an·, but that is no reason why many and medical services. {)thers should escape their just obligations. If one ratepayer can escape his obligation the There is nothing in the Bill to necessitate other ratepayers who are prepared to pay a long speech, but I want to draw the atten· their rates have to shoulder an extra respon tion of hon. members to the fact that one part sibility on account of the action of the one of the work will proceed immediately-that is, ·who has escaped. I do not think that it is the farm training scheme for the backward right in principle that a certain group of youths. As to tbe rest of the Bill, investiga ratepayers should endeavour to avoid the pay tions have first to be made, and the scheme ment of their rates and thus make the remain for the treatment and control will have to be ing ratepayers who are prepared to do their laid down by the board appointed for that duty by their local governing body pay an purpose. 1798 Backward Persons Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Backward Persons Bill. lUr. MAHER (West Moreton) (3.2 p.m.): of accommodation in some institution, but It is a great pity that a Bill of this kind is there will be a cost for all that. Are the rushed through the House. I should like to parents to meet that cost or will this State have had a more detailed explanation from provide it~ It may be that the board that the Ministm. This is something new, and it makes the survey of mental defectives and affects very intimately many families who backward persons may be over-enthusiastic have backward children. and much expense may be charged ~o the ~tate quite unnecesswrily. Once a board 1s appomted A very important new principle contained the members will feel they have a purpose to in the Bill is the power to commit a backward fulfil and a duty to perform, and, of course, person to an institution. It is rather a seri will make searching investigations as to the ous matter to take a child away from its whereabouts of all the mental defectives and parents, possibly against their wishes, and backward children, and, I am afraid, that in that power should not be used except in their zeal thev will involve the State in much exceptional circumstances. expenditure ai1d cause a great deal of unsettle On the initiatory stage of the Bill I drew ment amongst the families concerned, and attelltion to the f:1ct th:lt nl~ny c:f these achieve nothing worth ·while after all. children who might be termed backward we1e 'l'here was a poor old school teacher in my very greatly handicapped in the orllinary acti electorate who was very highly strung and vities of life. While they are not insane, they had an inferiority 0omplex. He always com are mentallv defective and lack the intelli plained that he was not as good a teacher as gence and the energy that are necessary to others, and wondered why he was lacking. In make a success of life. I think there is a other directions too, he thought he was general feeling among parents and relatives inferior to tho~e around him. A psycho of chilllren of this type that they would be analyst O'Ot hold of him and assured him he better off in every way under the parental could eff"'ect a cure, and for three months he roof. I think there \Yould be the greatest had the old fellow reciting- resentment on tJ:.e part of parents and rela tives if an attempt was made to take these '' I am the Captain of my Soul, and children away from them, because they recog 11aster of my fate'' nise that nothing much can he accomplished Also- to remove the defects of nature, and there is only an odd case in which cxpe1;imcntal me(1i " My head is bloody but unbowed." cal work can imnrove the child. Even in The old chap had to recite such things to him that case the inYprovement may only be tem self week in and week out. (Laughter.) It porary, and the child may be drawn away from is a fact. I am not joking at all with the its natural surroundings-separated from the Committee. The old fellow, for three months, family influence and possibly made extremely was paying out his money in fees to this unhappy for the rest of its life, despite the psycho-analyst to recite these things to him laudable effort to give the child a chance. self in an endeavour to build up his con There are some things that should not be fidence. attempted. I think great care should be exer cised in dealing with backward children who I do not know whether there is anything in are living contentedly at their homes, where that sort of thing or not. It does not appeal the parents. exercise very great care, where to me. However, after three months the they are treated with kindness anrl sympathy psycho-analyst gave him up as being too far that could never be got to the same extent gone, but the fees were not refunded. away from their homes. Therefore, when I see any reference to a It is all very well for those persons ~who psychiatrist and psycho-analyst I have a cer claim to do this, that, and the other-psycho tain amount of suspicion. 'l'hey may he expert analysis, and all the rest of it. They are a in mental defects and diseases to a certain tribe of people I have not Yery much con extent, but I am' extremely doubtful whether fidence in, with all due respect to them, and they will be able to do anything that is to take these children and put them in their worth while for the backward person. Their hands is a needless expense, and far from services might be valuable in advising the doing anything worth while for the children Government or making academic recommenda it will make their lot very miserable and tions, hut I have my doubts as to whether unhappy. Tn many instances the child will they will he able to cure people who are never be able, so long as it lives, to make its affected and who are handicapped by nature \Yay in life unaided or unsupported, and it is in this way. I do not think that they are far hetter that it be left amidst the happy worth two hoots, to put it colloquially. There is very grave danger, therefore, in commit :mr1 bright surroundings of itR 0\Yll family life. ting backward children to institutions on the recommendations of the Director-General of The Bill provides that these children ran Health anll :V[edical SeTviccs or two other be committed to institutions, licensed private duly appointed medical men. I am rather institutions, that will provide accommodation, c1oubtful about whether this Bill is going to or they may be sent to the Jubilee Sana be the success that its sponsoTS. believe it torium at Dalby, but nothing is said as to can be. At any rate, it has my good wishes who is to pay for all these things. Fees may if theoe is any possibility of doing anything be prescribed hy regulation. A child may he to help the backward child to get a footing taken away from its home to obtain the in life, to make it happier, and to gi;-c it a advantages of a farm training at Dalby, or useful and interesting vocation. It will be Baclcward Pe1·sons Bill. [16 NovE~IBER.] Backward Persons Bill. 1799 an interesting experiment if nothing more, only step in the right direction, which was hub I do want to stress particularly my point sterilisation. that it would be extremely unwise for the Minister to sanction any wholesale drafting Neither could America, years after, decide of baclnYard children from their homes, where on wiping out the tremendous curse known they have all the love and care of their as the J\ikes family. 'l'hese, leaving out the parents and families, and putting them into fact that they have cost the people of the homes under hard, cold discipline that could Fnited States millions of dollars, now getting make them extraordinarily discontented and to scores of millions, were also responsible whore, perhaps, nothing will bo achieved for for one of the most vile sets of descendants them. that have ever been known on this earth. It started with an unbalanced woman who was .iUr. BEifFORD (Warrego) (3.13 p.m.): sexually loose and who manied a nl'an who I desire to express my approval of this Bill "as a loafer. If you could trace that genea in that I think it is a commendable attempt logical tree of the loafer and the semi· to do something for the backward children prostitute down to these days you would find and the euphemism says something for scarcely one decent citi7on in thei lot. They th~ are all thieves, criminals, prostitutes. The kindness of heart of the Minister. case of the .J ukes family alone should have That approval, however, does not for a been enough to wipe out all the hypocritical moment disguise from m'e the fact that this objections to sterilisation. T'hose objections Bill is only a palliative. I am not p2·epared being paramount, the wor Id is still to state that lazy public opinion is yet in threatened. fa.vour of the only way there is of not makhw It is useless saying that even a long peace this evil of backward children permanent. I of 50 years would reduce the crop of unbal do not believe that at the present time there anced people, because the two great scourges is any large body of such a public opinion. of hereditary imbalance and hereditary I believe that it is only superstition, lazines8, srphilis, which is the cause of general paraly and want of thinking that prevents us from sis of the insane, still threaten the world. taking the only step by which it will be possible, in time, to wipe out insanity and all It is not many years ago when you could the diseases that run with it.. not use the word'' syphilis'' in any deliberative assembly without being regarded as a rather 1\Jr. Al!l.Ol"e: There is a very solid opinion low fellow. But then that belonged to the time in favour. · when frilled pantalettes were put round the lUr. UEHFORn: I say quite plainly that legs of pianos, when it was immoral to men· I am in faYoltr of sterilisation, which does tion trousers, which were always called not necessarily moan castration, but some ''gentlemen's unmentionables'' in drawing thing much more simple. rooms, thereby stressing the fact that it was most intended to avoid. At that time the JVJy reasons are these: we have the classic world was no better. It was worse, because instance of children, kindly called bacbYard at that time, when in England this puritanism children in this Bill, three little girls, who ha.d become worse than Puritanism-a for purposes of notoriety and also of being wowserism without even a religion attached noticed, prompted the murders in Massachu to it-small children were working in the setts in a hostile demonstration launched slush and darkness of coalmines dragging against \dtehcraft. Between 15 and 20 women loaded skips by leashes round their loins and were hung or burnt on the statements of old women were working as blacksmiths' those children, who after the burn!ng con chain-making on Cradley Heath. fessed that they had done it for the purpose of being noticed and because- they did not So the hypocritical world then, although it like one or two particular wonYen whom they was careful to avoid using that name of denounced. But this did not make again trousers, and called them ''gentlemen's hearty women from the ashes of the fires unmentionables,'' did not balk at keeping caused by these little ruffians. Although the people in slavery, thereby increasing the Legisla tu re of Massachusetts was really sorry number of mental defectives that there are in the world; and we should not balk to-day it had happened, it did not, in the then state of public opinion, which believed in witch at taking the only step to destroy the con craft and could not believe in any decent ventional lies of civilisation that will one day and are even now-threatening the world. >vay of avoiding what has now grown to be the major ill of the world-an ill that in It is remarked by men who have studied the stress of war is continually growing, the character of such men as Henry VIII. that because, although statistics are unavailable in all his diYergencies and all his little habits any exactitude on the point, it is a fact that of murdering one wife before he could take after eYcrv war the children born show a another, were due to syphilis and it is quite greater nuinber of misfits in intelligence than possible, when you see the madnesses that in times of peace-the Legislature of Massa are now mutilating the face of Europe, that chusetts, I say, did not then decide that some such impelling spirochete is the real these three children who had been the cause reason for these crimes that no decent man of the wholesale hangings and burnings at cnn contemplate unmoved. We are alleged Salem should be made incapable of passing to be in a time of peace, a peace that accord on the mental taint they had. They could ing to the .Archbishop of Canterbury was not then agree, under the hypocritical moods caused by a tidal \vave of prayer. Prayer of the time that govemed all the wor1d, to the is of great value to people as comfort-- 1800 Backward Persons Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Backward Persons Bill. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem making an investigation of backward or men ber is getting away from the principles of tally unbalanced, or mentally unfit children up the Bill. to 18 years of age and decide what is to be done is a very drastic proposal. I am not lUr. REHFORD: I am trying to get back sure from my reading of this Bill how far ~o it. I have said this only in passing. The that investigation goes, whether it will .be con fact remains that we have an aTmistice fined to particulaT cases, or whether it is to for a few days but the world is threatened be confined to gazetted districts, or whether again with war that will largely increase it will extend over the whole State. the madness that has been accruing to the world ever since war began. Australia, The Secretary for Health and Home should not be afraid to make Teforms for Affairs: Investigation will be over the the common good, and it should not mind whole State. objections to proposals to deal with any sore l\Ir. l\IOORE: One of the principles of the on the body politic OT even the physical body. Bill is that the teacher or medical officer is It should Tecognisc, for instance, that prayeT to supply information as to any mentally unfit and pious aspirations will not cure the great child. That is an absolute necessity, because, evils of the world, which is the general mental extraordinary as it may appear, there are imbalance. EveTybody knows that all this many cases in which the paTents of a back trouble in Europe, which now threatens to ward or mentally unfit child are quite unable come here-or the results of it-would not be to recognise that condition in the child. They if theTe was a general sane public opinion. are unable to see that their child is different But eveT since the first lunacy started in the to other children, or they imagine-whether world-from then on has re~gned this hypoc the wish is father to the thought I do not risy that has prevented the cause and the know-that the child is becoming normal and cure of insanity from being brought into the is able to do things that nOTmal children can op8n and recognised-because of the conven do, when as a matter of fact it cannot. One tional lies of civilisation, which \Yill sooner does not have the opportunity of coming or later destroy civilisation. across the same number of these children in I notice in the Bill that a person is called the town or cities as in the country, because a child at the age of 18 years. This age in in the country the families are as a Tu le larger adolescence is an age of sexual capacity. and the number. of mentally backward children EveTybody knows tlwt in most eases of unbal are extraordinarily great. In going round the anced people there is the fecundity of the _ various schools, and attending school picnics unfit and its anticipation by the stl·ong sexual one observes these cases in great numbeTs. It appetite that very nften shows itself as is becoming a very serious problem that has either nymphomania or satyriasis. to be tackled. Australia now has a chance of dealing with It seems to me that the Bill is going to the incurable deficients-nobody can give them make an attempt to do something, and as the new brains-who will inevitably pass on their power is given for the compulsory removal of disease. They should be pTevented by law mentally backward children into homes where from passing on their taint to the rest of the there will be opportunity classes, or an endea flock, which up to now is comparatively elean. vour will be made at any rate to teach them something to keep them occupied and make lUr. !WORE (Aubigny) (3.25 p.m.): I them more or less normal, something will look upon this Bill, from what I have seen of probably be achieved, but whatever may be it, as being worthy of support. The hon. done they will never be in a position to be member for Warrego thinks it does not go fm regarded as absolutely normal. They will enough. The general opinion of to-day is that always be a danger to the community even far more drastic action is needed than the after they have been to the opportunity mere segregation of the mentallv backward classes and have been looked after in the and opportunity classes for the de.fectivcs. It institution till they become 18 years of age. seems to me that far more drastic action must At that age they will be sent out of the home, b~ taken. .As the hon. member for Wanego or if too bad will be transferred to a mental vrrtnally sa1d, these people have all the desires hospital. A large number of them are sup of a~ults without the mental capacity to posed to be in a position to take their place restTam themselves from satisfving those in the \Vorld because they have learned enough -desires. That fact must lead to a~ increasing to enable them to follow an occupation, and number of mentally backward and mentally an Industrial Court will have power to fix the deficient persons. amount of remunemtion theY shall receive. That may cause an added ·danger of the We have to recognise that in families where increase in mentally defective people. These a number of children are absolutely normal people may be taught something that they can there is often to be found a child who is understand ancl they \Yill probably be able to mentally unfit, whoRe brain never appears to do it mechanically, but that is not going to develop beyond that of a 7-year old child. make them fit to take care of themselves or We have another great difficulty there for improve them to the extent that they woulcl we cannot ignore the effect that a backward be an advantage to the community. or mentally unfit child has on children of the As the hon. member for Warrego said, they same family, particularly if they are some will be, perhaps, bearm·s of children to a where about the same age. greater extent than the normal people, and the The pToposal that a board shall be result will be that we shall have a greater appointed under this Bill with the duty of increase in the number of mental defectives Backward Persons Bill. [16 NOVEMBER.] Backward Persons Bill. 1801 than we now have. It seems to me, as the The Bill gives very wide powers of investi hon. member for Warrego said, that we shall gation and control, and though it may seem have to face the position sooner or later and very hard to take children away from their provide for sterilisation. That is the onlv parents, there appears to be an obligation reasonable and sensible way to meet the pro on us to try to place them in a position where blem; it would be in the interests of the they will be less of a menace and will be community and in the interests of these men taught to do something. Expert tuition and tally affected people. knO\Yledge are required. In Brisbane there All sorts of provisions are placed in the are opportunity classes, and the success of Bill giving power for investigation, and it is those classes is almost beyond belief. Children going to be a fairly long job, because Queens \Vho seemed to be quite incapable of under land is a very large area to traverse. The standing have, through the efforts of these Bill provides that the parents, guardians or teachers and their training, been taught school teachers must give notice of any child to become quite useful in a limited sphere of over six years that appPars to be mentallv knO\Yledge, and to do certain work. These defective. I doubt if large numbers of parents teachers have a method of impressing upon will carry out that responsibility or believe such children how to make some use of their a responsibility rests on them to notify thnt \·ery limited capacity. the child is mentally defective. I know •Of 'l'his has been discussed over a great num children who are now grown up and who ber of years, and, therefore, I welcome it. during the whole of their lives have been The Country Women's Association, and other unable to do anything for themselves. Some associations that come in contact with this are obviously quite incapable of even dressing class of child a great deal, recognise the need themselves, yet the parents obstinately refuse for classes, and the segregation in homes of to recognise that they are mentally defective. mental defectives, not merely from their own There comes a stage when the mother dies point of view, hut also that of the other and the only place in ·which the defective child members of the family. The earlier they can can be cared for is a mental hospital. get such children, the better. Often, the chilc1 has become too old to learn anything. The I quite understand that this Bill represents Bill gives the opportunity of getting them the beginning, but it is going to be a bigger even after they have reached one year, but task than appears on the surface. One institu six years of age is definitely set out as the tion at Dalby and private institutions are a maximum. Of course, as this will be the first small beginning; the task that confronts the inve~tiga tion, children of varying ages, committee is of considerable magnitude. probably up to the maximum of 18 years, will Some are so defective that it is impossible be brought under notice. What is to be done to let them out of doors. with the older children is something that the committee will have to report on. Mr. Bedford: There is the case of an idiot in Parramatta who has been washed I appreciate the Bill and trust the com and fed by nurses fm 60 years; the waste of mittee will he able to get on with its work as that is tremendous. soon as possible, in order that the menace in the community may be reduced at any rate. Mr. MOO RE: I do not know of any case At present, it is being aggravated continually of such long standing, but I know of two or by the presence throughout the length and three cases in Queensland where the mother breadth of the State of mental defectives that has for at least 30 years washed, dressed and are not bad enough to be shut up in a mental fed, and looked after a child-and obstinately hospital, but are certainly a menaee to ~he refused to see that there was anything wrong community, particularly in the propagatiOn with it. You cannot expect people of that of their species, and this is creating a problem sort-especially when the children are young that it is becoming more and more difficult to -to take the responsibility of reporting. It deal with. comes to the question whether the child is :fit for school. If it went to school the teacher At any rate, the Bill is a start, ~nd it would have to make the report that is neces seems to be something that we can all appre sary. ciate and welcome. I trust that it will nttain its objective, and that it will at least make I hope the investigation will be thorough a start on \Yhat is a very difficult subject. and that something ·will come out of it something that will go further than the mere Mr. COPLEY (Kurilpa) (3.41 p.m.): It is question of segregation in homes and classes certainly a pleasure to hea•r the hon. member to teach these backward children an occupa for Aubigny agreeing with some of the pro tion that they can understand. posals that are being introducer1 b!' the Government. A point that struck me in those cases that I have seen is the effect that a child mentally I desire to congratulate the Go...-ernment unbalanced has on the normal children playing upon introducing this legislation. If I may with it. I have seen it in small country schools say so, I have been keenly interested in the question of backward children. On numerous at which two O'r three of these children attend. occasions I have visited the opportunity Certainly, this effect may not be permanent, schools conducted by the Department of and may exist only while the mentally Public Instruction, and I have taken a great unbalanced child is present, but it is some interest in the progress of some of the schools thing to be taken note of. there. I should like to pay a tribute to the 1938-3 M 1802 Backward Persons Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Backward Persons Hill. head teache1·, ::\liss Shoohy, and the inspector entitlP him to the basie wage. \Ve have many from the Department of Public Instruction, casPs to-clay of men who through illness and l\ir. Bevington, who has played an important other reasons a're able to get permits to work part in the establishment of this important at less than the awarrl wage. work, and who has given Miss Sheehy such I Tcalise the point of view of the hon. valuable help. member for Auhigny, of course, that if a T 'vas interested to hear the romwrks of person, particularly a female, is thrown out in the hon. member fo.r \Van·ego. Certainly, the world as mentally deficient, he or she is war plays a very big part in bringing into open to attacks from blackguards and others, existence many backward children. The hon. and may not be as well able to withstand member mentionell certain causes, such as sexual temptations as a normal person. At diseases, but one phase of the question that the same timE', I think that with the training has been overlooked is the pre-natal influence of many years much may be done, and will be of the mothC'l'. I happened to defend in clone, under this system to teach such a person the Supreme Court a lad charged with the the right from the wrong. I realise that it is very serious crime of attempting to kill. a difficult problem, and- that such a person Ho certainly firetl a revolver. I am not will never have the capacity of a normal breaking any professional confidence in say person to understand, but certainly the oppor ing that after the trial was over the mother tunity should be given to earn the basic or admitted that the lad was a posthumous ruling wage. child. His father had been killed in Pales tine. The mother told me that at night I want to correct a misapprehension that time befm·e the child was born she would the hon. member for Aubigny seems to have go and see a picture show in London. Her in regard to clause 9 (1), which says- wish during the whole time ·while she was '' 9. (1) Every person being the parent carrying th-e child was that he would be a or guardian of a backward child over the famous cletective. Apparently this strong nge of six years, or the teachpr in charge Wish of the mother was conveyed to the of any school, or the person in charge of child in some way, because nt 15 or 16 years any child welfare clini<', or the person in of age that youth was writing detective charge of any religious, charitable, or stories. As a matter of fact, he was very benevolent or other institution under whose offended wh~n the learned judge suggested notice or care any such backward child over that the pohce had prepared the statement the aw• of six years comes, shall notify that he had signed. He said that he could such fact in the prescribed form to the have done that fiYe or six yea'rs before. The Director of Mental Hygiene: lad had no liking for study. He had no interest in his school 'York He hacl never ''Provided that should it become appar been known to play a game. He had con ent and confirmed for a period of one year centrater1 on what is known as ''the perfect before the child reaches the age of six years crilne, ~' that such child is a backward child, then such notification shall be made immediately Such influences as these and many others aftol' the period of one year prescribed have to be considered, and I certainly think abm-e.'' that the persons who "·ill administer this Bill ,,.iJ] have to explore a \cry wide field, That provision puts the onus on the parent as the hon. member for Aubigny says, in an to see that the case is reported at the age effort to deal with each case. of six ye<:~rs, or, if it is apparent or confirmed that such child is backward, at the ago of Tf hon. membe1·s would go across to the five years. That is the only provision in the opportunity school they could see the children Bill dealing with the matter. working there, and sec how some of them develop gmdually to a certain stage, and I sincerely hope that the r1-overnment will then cannot absorb anything more. I know not hesitate to go ahead with this work. I of one child over there who ,,-as brilliant for strongly recommend hon. members interested 12 months. She would 'vork quite >Yell and in this aspect of psychology to visit the oppor the staff would he pleased with her. Then tunity school at South Brisbane to see some she would come back o1w morning and ..rould of the feeble and Dathetic cases there. It have forgotten e,-erything that she had been would he an eye-opener to them, and I think taught for months befme. Her mind would that they would be eager to help the Govern become an absolute hlank. All these things ment in the work it is intended to do under will have to he considered and, if possible, this BilL solved. It is pleasing to see that the work is at least being tackled in what would 'l'lie SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOJTE AFJ<'AIRS: (Hon. E. JVI. Hanlon, seem to be a systematic ma11ner. :Lthaca) ( 3.48 p.m.), in reply: I appl'eciate 'l''hcre is one point upon ,,-hich I do not the difficulties pointed out by the vm·ious agree with the hon. member for Aubigny. speakers this afternoon. We have to realise That is in connection with the provision of that it is not advisable to start spending exemptions from industrial conditions and public money on this work until we have the payment of ,,-ages commensurate with made a proper survey of it. vVe know neither the work done by these people. As a matter the number available for tTeatment nor the of fart, there is provision in our industrial (]egree to which they are affected. We do legislation to-day for the man who, through not know how the parents of the childTen ,,-m physical unfitness, is unable to do the mini react. vVe know that a large number of mum amount of work that is required to parents do not like to admit that their Backward Persons Bill. [16 NOVEMBER.) Backward Persons Bill. 1803 children are backward. The whole success of the Jubilee Sanatorium at Dalby shall become this Bill will depend on the degree of a backward persons institution under the co-operation that the department gets from name of ' The Dalby Training Farm' for the parents. It would obviously be bad tactics the purpose of the education and care, treat for the officers of the department, who desire ment, or control of backward persons, and to make a success of the work, to try to force children away from their parents-as the all the provision~ of this Act shall apply Leader of the Opposition suggested. That and extend to such institution.... '' 'Yould inevitably result in more harm than When the epileptics ,,.ere being sent to the good. The line of approach will have to be Jubilee Sanatorium it was suggested that the an endeavour to gain the confidence of the institution should be used for adult mentally parents, and to get them to realise their backward people, not children at all. Does responsibility to the child while it is young this clause mean that the institution will be enough to respond to treatment. available only for children between the ages There are, on the records of the Brisbane of 6 and 18 years~ Hospital, as I pointed out on the initiation of this Bill, quite a number of cases of The Secretary for Health and Home children who were backward, but who have Affairs,: Old enough to work. been successfully treated. They may not be lUr. JUOORE: Not over 18 years of age? abnormally clever, but they were successfully treated medically and surgically to enable The Secretary for Health and Home them to take their place as working people. Affairs: No. Of course, too, there have been cases on 1\fr. MOO RE: When the estimates were record where patients have been lost to society being discussed it was said that the place because treatment was not given in the early stages. would be used for mentally defectives 'vho were not bad enough to be sent to mental Mr. Moore: By surgical treatment you hospitals and who were unsuitable to be mean taking the pressure off the brain, and at large. The place was to be used for the so onf training of such adults. The object of this The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Bill is to educate, care, treat, and control HO~IE AFFAIRS: Yes. There are all bacbvard youths and I want to know whether kinds of things that may arrest mental the Dalby training farm is to be used solely development, and there are many records of for the training of children. successful treatment. In the past the trouble The Secretary for Health and Home has been that the mother has endeavoured to shield the child from contact with anybody. Affairs: Yes. Her maternal instincts guide her in this direc ~fr. lUOORE: Mer..tally unfit adults who tion. Instead of seeking aid for the child are not bad enough to be sent to a mental she has allowed herself to be deceived by hospital will not be admitted to this institu its infirmity. I have known a parent to refuse tion as well as the children who a'l·e to be to acknowledge that a child's eye 'Yas turned trained~ and to dispute the fact with anyone who said that it had a turning eye. vVe haYe all these The two will not be together~ difficulties to contend with in illnesses of this kind. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND The success of the scheme will depend upon HO~IE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, the manner in which the board sets about Ithaca) (3.55 p.m.): No. The Dalby farm making contact with parents and guardians of will be purely a training farm. It will Le the children, but I think it can be done in a for the purpose of receiving inmates we know way that will lead to considerable success. At enough about tn train them to go on the all events there has been an agitation for right way. The object will be to train youths many years for something to be done in the and } oung men for farm work who are too matter and there is no good in refusing to do backw:Fd to lead an ordinary industrial life it because there might be many failures. Our with their fellows. vYe have the power to job is to do all that we can to achieve success, prescribe by regulation their conditions and and so we are setting about the doing of it. wages, the same as we do State children. Motion (Mr. Hanlon) agreed to. The training of lads for farm work by the State Children Department has been an out COMMITTEE. standing success. We cue inundated with (:M:r. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) requests for boys trained at Westbrook. We Clauses 1 to 9, both inclusiYc, as read, prescribe the wages of those boys, the amount agreed to. of pocket mon0y to be allowed them, and the ar.~ount that n1ust be paid into their banking accounts. They are not allowed to spend their Clause 10-Backward persons institutions money until "they reach manhood. We will ~Ir. lliOORE (Aubigny) (3.53 p.m.): I tr·ain these backward youths along the same should like some information on this clause. lines. Their detention will not be for medical It says- pm·poses, bu~ to train them in cases where they are fit for that work. '' Provided that, on and after the passing of this Act, the present premises known as Clause 10, as read, agreed to. 1804 Backward Persons Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Legitimation Acts, &c., Bill. Clause 11-Private aecommodation- LEGITD It is interesting to note that when The We are going a very long way in the Legitimation Act of 1899 was passed the very encouragement of the unpleasant practice of section it is now proposed to repeal was very keeping two homes-one of convention and fully discussed. 'rhe Hon. A. H. Barlow, who one of convenience. This is going to be a was totally opposed to the Bill, said he certain encouragement to take advantage of opposed it on certain grounds, which in the opportunities irrespective of what may happen. view he took were quite logical. The Bill Anything could happen after the removal of having passed the second reading, in the the bar that is at present there to the legiti Committee stage he asked the Hon. Peter mation of the children. Macpherson, in charge of the Bill, whether he could not see his way clear to omit that clause. Whether it is a good thing to undermine He said further- the moral principles of the community by offering this· encouragement is another ques " It would be very hard not to legitimate tion altogether. Personally, I am not in the child of an adulterous husband. He favour of it. I do not think that people who did not think they should visit the sins of are prepa1·cd to break the legal and religious the father on the child.'' vows they have taken should be given the This was a man opposed to the whole prin· opportunity in advance, as this Bill gives eiple of legitimation, but the principle having them, of being able to legitimate the children been adopted by the House, he thought it was who have really no right to be there. very wrong in principle to oppose the legiti· The Attorney-General: As a matter of mation of a child under the circumstances I fact, this Bill will encourage people to marry have stated. and live decently. The Hon. Peter Macpherson, in reply, said- lUr. lUOORE: The Minister is always presupposing that the bar that is there when '' One of the reasons for bringing in the the lapse takes place dies and creates the Bill was to meet eases where there was opportunity for these people to become legally no impediment to marriage bet,veen the married. father and mother at the time of the birth of the child. If the Committee was of Mr. JUr. King: Otherwise the Bill does not Barlow's opinion he was prepared to give operate. way.'' Mr. JliOORE: I know that, but it He was not too strong on the point, and encourages people to take the chance that further stated- the bar will be removed in order that the '' He was prepared to admit that there children might be legitimated afterwards. 'vas a great deal of force in the Hon. Mr. Those people would say, "I am doing no wrong Barlow's contention; at the same time he now because the Act provides the opportunity had no wish to imperil the Bill. It was for me later to legitimate the children who an instalment of justice, and possibly in are born in this establishment and not in the more enlightened times, and under different conventional one.'' circumstances, they might go still further; The Attorney-General: Provided they but at present he should prefer to let the clause remain as it stood. His fear was revert to the conventional method of living. that if the Bill was amended as suggested :ilir. 1\IOORE: That is so, but this Bill is by the hon. gentleman, it would meet with providing the opportunity. opposition in another place, and not become law.'' lUr. King: This Bill is for the benefit of the children. The Hon. Peter Macpherson, as did Mr. Barlow, really favoured what I propose to do ;}fr. lllOORE: That is so. No child has to-day, but thought it would be endangered anything to do with its being brought into in the other House. this world, but there are certain responsibili· ties and conventions. There are legal con I hope we have now reached the enlightened ''entions that should be observed. I do not age of which the Hon. Peter Macpherson think that we are making the position an,y spoke 39 years ago. If we have-and I better by making the opportunity to break believe we have-these children, who hitherto have suffered through no fault of their own, Yows g1'eater. should be able to claim the same rights of The Attorney-General: If the Bill meant citizenship as other people. that I should not be responsible for it. With these few remarks I have much plea· Mr. lliOORE: I do not think that the sure in moving the second reading of the Bill. Bill is altogether necessary. Certainly, the :ur. 1\IOORE (Aubigny) (4.9 p.m.): The case that the Minister cited when he was Attorney-General has not said very much more initiating the Bill, of the much-married gentle in favour of this Bill than he said before, man and lady, in which people promiscuously except that some men 39 years ago said they liYed together and never bothered whether were in favour of it, and that in more enlight they were legally married or not, is interest· ened times certain things might be done. ing. Even one lady discovered afterwards We have now reached that time, but I am that although she thought she had bigamously beginning to wonder what will happen in married, she had been legally married, and another 40 years' time, when we shall be so the discovery cam·e as a shock to her. Prob· much the more enlightened. Perhaps there ably, if the li'Iinister was able to continue \Vill be no bar at all. the story, he would find that there was a 1806 Legitimation Acts, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. No. 4 and a No. 5, and No. 5 'voman did not Mr. MOO RE: We have had legislation worry whether there were bigamous inten made retrospective in order to catch one tions or not. I am not altogether opposed individual, and we are now pa~sing this. to the Bill, but I do not think that tllere is Legitimation Acts Amendment Brll for the much value in passing it. benefit of one person. The Attorney-General: You have. reached The Attorney-General: I never made the enlightened age. such a statement, nor did the hon. member for Maree. ~Ir. l\'WORE: No. I should never have brought down w Bill like this, because I do ~Ir. ~lOO RE: The Minister did not not think it is desimble. I am not going to definitely make it, but he left that inferenc·e vote against it, although I do not agree with to be drawn. it. I do not think any advantage will be gained by passing it, and I certainly do not Tile Attorney-General: Of course, I cited think that it will help the community in any an example in justification of the Bill. way. It might giv~ a particular child here ~Ir. MOO RE: It seems to me that the and there a standing that it otherwise would whole argument has centred round some not have had, but I think it is going to have instance that I do not know about. quite an ill-effect upon a large number of persons. It will give an encouragement to The Attorney-General: The principle them to break vows and pledges and to take that I discussed with you this afternoon 'vas actions that they would not have taken other in the Upper House 30 years before the wise. children you are rcfening to were born. ~Ir ltiOORE: I was only pointing out The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. J. that t•he principle of passing Acts of Parlia Mullan, Carpentaria) (4.15 p.m.), in reply: ment for indiYiduals is hardly to be com In case there might be any possibility of mencled, though I know it has been done on anyone's being able to identify the case I occasions. From what I have been able to cited the other night as one of the reasons gather from the remarks of the hon. m~mber for this Bill, I want to say that the innocent for JI.Iaree this Bill refers to a particular victim of the third marriage in that case person, on ~vhose behalf, apparently, the agita was perhaps one of the most respectable tion has been undertaken. That proced~re women in Brisbane. The woman, whose may be followed in other cases. Excephon children we are now going to legitimate might be taken if it was tho~ght that ~he primarily by this Bill, is one of the most Government had introduced a Brll to deal wrth upright women in Brisbane, and had no a special case. idPa that the scoundrel of the man who took up with her had entered into marriage }Jr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (4.20 before. I can assure the hon. gentleman con p.m.): Will there be any limit to the applica cerned in the controversy, and I should like tion of this principleq Will people be a?le it to be known, that any remarks that have to have five or six children and after a pcr·IOd been made by the hon. member for Aubigny of 10 or 20 years take advantage of this would not apply to that lady, and I know Bill W they we:·e not so intended. JUr. ~Ioore: Yes. ~Ir. JUoore: I did not know there was a ])fr. YEATES: I do not quite like that. particular case. This is breaking away from all convention. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: If I gave The Attorney-General: These are chil the particular case it might be identified. dren of married parents. ~Ir. lUNG (Maree) (4.16 p.m.): I happen Mr. YEATES: It may be all right to to know the lady c-oncerned in this matter, introduce the Bill for a special purpose and and, as the Attorney-General has said, she is then cancel it, but where are we drifting if a particularl1' respectable woman. The Bill we allow it to operate indefinitely~ legitimates the children, and it is a right thing to do. The Bill has general application Clause 3, as read, agreed to. to similar circumstances in the future, and in Bill reported, without amendment. the circumstances narrated by the Attorney General it will be of benefit to the State. THIRD READING. Motion (Mr. Mullan) agreed to. Bill, on motion of Mr. Mullan, read a third time. COMMITTEE. (Mr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) WHEAT STABILISATJON BTLL. Clauses 1. and 2, as read, agreed to. INITIATION IN COMliiiT'l'EE. Clause 3-Effect of repeal of section 6- (Mr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) ~Ir. J1'IOORE (Aubigny) (4.17 p.m.): I am Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRHTLTURE surprised that this Bill has been brought in AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) to deal with one case. 4.23 p.m.) : I move- The Attorney-General: I did not say that. '' That it is desirable that a Bill be intro You are quite wrong. duced relating to the stabilisation of wheat Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NOVEMBER.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. 1807 and certain wheat products and for other are required for home consumption within purposes.' ' our own market? I think that most hon. members are aware Let us examine that question. There has of the genesis of this proposed legislation. been a steadily diminishing volume of Queens Several weeks ago the New South ·wales land flour going into consumption in this Government invited representatives of the State. .Five years ago the figures were other States to discuss the very serious posi 91,000 tons, but last year the figures dropped tion that had arisen in relation to the oversea to 84,000 tons. There was an increase in wheat market, which in the absence of a population so the decline is even more signi stabilisation scheme, obviously influences the ficant than the figures suggest. In other Australian wheat market. The conference words, Queensland has always been regarded, made a recommendation that was to be given shall I say, the dumping State by certain legislative approval by the respective State interests in the South. If we did not enter Governments. It recommended that the price this scheme there would be no stabilisation of wheat for conversion into flour for human level in Queensland. 'l'hc result ·would be consumption should be fixed at 4s. 8d. a that Queensland would be regarded as an bushel at country sidings. That figure 'il'as export State and fiour-})articularly flour, I arrived at after consideration of a recom think-would he dumped into Queensland. mendation by the Commonwealth's Royal Under these circumstances I do not know Commission on the Wheat, Flour, and Bread that we could succeed h1 marketing for our Industries, which spent a good deal of time own consumption one-fifth or one-sixth of and money in investigating the financial our total millable flours. affairs of the wheatgrowers of the Common wealth. Another phase of the question is this: unless there can be some reasonable guarantee The jubt ification for the Bill, uf course, that our wheat crop could be disposed of it is lies in the fact that the overseas position fairlv obvious that the financial houses that of wheat is particularly bad. The Govern guarantee the Wheat Board's early advances ments of the United States of America and would be reluctant to make these advances. Canada ha,-e acquired the whole of the wheat So that vou would have the dual hardship crops of those countries, and having made first, the inability to sell your wheat, and prm·ision for the volume needed for domestic second, the inability to get advances on it. consumption will quite obviously dump the The two problems are inter-related. There balance on the world's markets. I am in fore, prudence, business acumen and ordi.n receipt of information in which it is stated arv caution should dictate our policy, apart that a substantial premium will be paid on from any other feelings in this matter, such such wheat dumped on the world's markets. as the desirability of being a partner in the In other words, thP United States of America "·heat scheme adopted by all other States in and Canada will be quite prepared tu lose ls. the Commonwealth. a bushel on every bushel of wheat exported from those countries. So far as the price farto'r is concerned. the f.a.q. "·heat, which is equal to our Q2, Indications at present point to a carry is quoted this morning at 2s. 8~d. a bushel. over in Australia of some 100,000,000 bushels. If we add to that amount the cost of bring \Vheatgro"·ers are entitled to fair economic ing wheat from Darling Harbour to Queens conditions. \Ve in Queensland are somewhat lnnd, you have the price that is the pivotal differently situated to the wheatgrowers of price, the f.a.q. price, upon which the Wheat other States inasmuch as we have a com Board negotintes with the miller for the lmlsory wheat pool. This wheat pool has disposal of the crop. We have always been made a material contribution to the well able to g·et for our wheat Darling Ha,rbour being of the wheatgrower and has done excel pm·ity, plus the cost of bringing wheat from lent work in stabilising the industry. Our Darling Harbour to Queensland; hence our problem to-clay is of greater magnitude than wheatgrowers by virtue of their pool have that which ordinarily confronts us at this been able to get a far better price for their time of the year, inasmuch as it was esti wheat than the wheatgrowcrs in the other mated a few days ago that the wheatgrowers States. in this 8iate would harvest up to 7,000,000 The wheatgrowers in the other States, in lmshels of wheat. I am unable to sav at common with the wheatgrowers in Queens present to "-hat degree the recent rains l1ave land, are going to be hit by this economic affected our total yield. wheat storm that is raging at the present No don bt, the wheatgrowcr in Queensland time. It is true that the geographical advan "IYill sa;', ''What arc the reasons that justif:y tage may c1isappear-"\vill disappear, I think, my indusion in this scheme?'' 'rho reasons m1c1er the scheme. arc apparent. They must be considered in Mr. MaJ1er: The trend in increasing pro relation to any other form of stabilisation duction points that ·way. that maY be operating in Queensland. Quite franklv, we cannot consider this question The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE apart 'from the factor of stabilisation. I AND STOCK: Yes; it is an economic fac have given a good deal of attention to the tor over which one cannot have a very great question of wheat stabilisation and the posi amount of control. I think the geographical tion, as I see it, resolves itself into this: if position, under normal circumstances, can be "'e are not a partner to the \lommonwealth and should be protected for some years to desire, "·hat opportunity should we have of come; but I think we have to face the ques selling the 5,000,000 bushels of wheat that tion on the assumption that the geographical 1808 Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. advantage, translated to a price basis, will available on the assumption that such stability disappear under the stabilisntion scheme. is given. The price has been fixed at 4s. 8d. for t1omes tic consumption. That 4s. 8r1. will represent Thir. Muller: What do you estimatE>, the the available amount; a limited amount. The transport charges at between Darling Harbour difference between export parity and the and Brisbane~ 4s. Sd. will be available for distribution The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE amongst the wheatgrowers of the Common ANII STOCK: Roughly about 6d. a bushel. wealth in respect to all the wheat that is produced in the Commonwealth. If the basis :'}Ir. DEACON (Cunningham) (4.36 p.m.): I discussed in Sydney and Canberra is Under this scheme, although it may not appear adhered to the P.rice will be roughly equal to be an advantage, our loss will be nothing to the geographical advantage as a price like what it would be if we do not come in. factor, which the Queensland "rowers have been getting in the past. "' The Premier: That is a major point. Mr. Edwards: 4s. Sd. 1\Ir. DEACON: We should lose very heavily. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTL'RE AND STOCK: 4s. Sd. country stations, is The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: ~he agreement. That will be, so far as I can Only too right, we should! JUdge from the estimates of production that ::.\Ir. DEACON: As far as I can under I sa~ recently, approximately 6d. a bushel stand although we may not gain anything we prennum on all wheat milled for human con can still hold the advantage that we have, i.e., sumption.. we shall get the equivalent of the geographical advantage. There is no doubt about the legal powers of the State and the Commonwealth to agree Tlle Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: to a scheme of this description. The Com About Gd. a bushel. monwealth has adequate power so far as excise and bounty are concerned. The ~It·, DEACON: We shall still hold that. administ!ation of the project •rests very It is kno\Yll of course, that the geographical largely m the hands of a committee that advantage ~f the Queensland mills vanishes is to be. set up .. Our committee in Queens altogether north of Rockhampton. The through freigMs from Sydney nre slightly cheaper land ~Ill COI_JSISt of :\fr. Colin Clark, Economic Adviser to the Government. Mr. than they are to Brisbane, and the through Lindsey, as the consumers' representative, rate to the North is not so much. 'vVc have there to compete ·with the Sydney lines. But and an officer of the markf,ting branch of we certainly cannot afford to stand out the Department of Agriculture anr1 Stock. because if we did our loss would be a heavy The details of administi·ation obviouslv one, and the wheat market of the world is in would. have to. be arranger} throngh thi'l a desperate condition and may be for the next committee: subJect to the approval of the year. Governor m Council. Tlle Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Viewing thJe t~ing from eve1·y possible Surely will be the same. angle, I am convmcecl our growers will be no worse off under this arrangement on the JUr. DEACON: It may be worse, it maY price factor than if no such arr8ngement be better. It all depends on weather condi was made, but they will be definitely better tions. off on the whole inasmuch as I think this The Premier: In any case, Queensland arrangement will consel'Ye the Queensland must benefit by any scheme of Australian market f?r Queensland wheat, and that, of course, \nll mean that our mills will be fullv stabilisation. employed instead of Southern mms g·risting Mr. DEACON: We must benefit a little Southern wheat and putting the flom on the and lose nothing. Coming in in this way we QLwensland market. certainly shall not lose. Anything we lose by giving up the geograhpical advantage we have, The only other observation I wish to make we regain by coming in under this arrange is that quite recently I asked Mr. Lindsey to ment. It will be equal for us. go to Toowoomba and check the principle of quota payments and grade payments, for I It must also be remembered that >Yheat have a very earnest desire to protect so far growing is extending in Queensland very fast. as possible the grade payments that it has Land that a few years ago was not believed been the practice of the Wheat Board to make to be wheatgrowing land has been praYed to in the past. I believe the scheme could do be good, and wheat will be gro\\'11 over a very incalculable harm in the final analysis to the much larger area than was even dreamt of a wheatgrowing industry of Queensland if the few years a;go. For instance, I can remember grade payments that have been made in that the Dalby district \Yas condemned as Queensland-and we are supreme in this being impossible wheat country, but now it is respect in Australia-were jettisoned, even consiclerec1 a very good wheatgro>Ying district temporwrily. Therefore, our wheatgrowers and the average crop in that area is equal wi]] be on the same price plane roughly as to that in any other part of Queensland. they would be if this agreement had not Wheatgrowing is also extending further YYest existed. On the other hand, they will haYe and wrn continue to do so. Certainly, in a security of market, they will have availability year or so we shall be just as large an of market, and consequently finance will be exporter of wheat in proportion to our demand Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NovEMBER.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. 1809 :as the other States. The view I take is that finality had then been reached. I have we must accept the scheme simply because at booked a call to him now, and if finality is least 1ve shall hold virtually the same advan reached before the House adjourns I shall tage that we have, and there is a possibility ask the leave of the House to n1ake a state of gaining as 'our wheatgrowing industry ment in order to inform hon. members of expands. the position. I think that hon. members I take it that the position now is that we should be told these things first, if the infor· are passing legislation to ratify an agreement mation is available. that has not been made. I do not know The first point that arises in my mind is whether that affects the power of the Govern that we affirm the economic proposition that ment. We have not seen the Bill yet, but I all men enguged in useful services are entitled expect that that will be so. to a reasonable standard of living, whether The Secreta.ry for Agriculture and Stock: they are wheatgrowers, sewer workers, sugar Your leader has seen the Bill. farmers, dairymen, or any other workers. The farmer is1 just as much entitled to a living Mr. nEACON: I have not. wage as anybody else in the community. I do not think that will be combated. The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Then he has been discourteous in not showing Another principle is the relation of Queens· it to you. land to the agreement already nfade or about to be made. If C~ueensland does not agree lUr. J)EACON: I did not ask to see it. with the, other States and the Commonwealth, I have read so much about the scheme in the no effectiYe ag1 eement can be made, because South that I knew all about it. I think every apart fTom the constitutional questions that wheatgrower knows all about it. It has been are involved, the Commonwealth has said that well advertised and discussed throughout the unless the States agree to a uniform scheme wheat country, and the: general opinion it will not legislate under its excise and there is similar to the one I have just bounty powers' to ratify and to give effect to expressed. It is that even though the gain to the proposal. Queensland, as part of the us is very small indeed, if it is anything at all, f'ommonwealth, is therefore under an obliga it is better to hold what we have than to take tion-by virtue of our common citizenship what we should have if we stood out. to enter into an agreement with the other States in a matter that affects the general The PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, economy of the whole of Australia. It would Macka~-) (4.43 p.m.): ~ matter of very bo wrong to refuse for individual reasons to important policy is involved in a Bill of this be a party to such an agreement. kind, and that is the only reason why I take part in the debate. The other point that can be emphasised is that, leaving aside questions of geographical The position confronting Australia a few advantage and any consideration of Darling months ago >vas that the wheat industry Harbour parity plus freight, which are only would collapse unless some effort was made incidental and rrrise only if we agree to th"e within Australia to stabilise prices, so that principle, a principle- that farmers in wheat the average price obtained for wheat con growing areas should understand thoroughly sumed in Australia, as well as for that sent -the other point is that if Queensland failed abroad, would enable the farmers engaged in to come into this agreement she would fare the industry to continue in it. very badly indeed in regard to prices. Wheat from the Southern States at world's parity If the law of supply and demand had been could flood the Queensland market, and we allowed free scope, nothing but ruin would might have difficulty in selling our wheat have faced the great majority of wheat farmers in Australia. Consequently, confer either in Australia or abroad. ences between the Commonwealth Government lUr. lUaher: That is very important. and the State Governments iVere held in order to see what could be done. The Secretary for The PREMIER: It is very important that Agriculture and Stock represented me at two the wheatgrowers should know that. of those conferences, and a unanimous agree No wheat stabilisation scheme that was not me:t;t, binding on all the Governments, was approved by all the Governments could be arnved at. That agreement is contained in effective because under section 92 of the this Bill. Commonwealth Constitution wheat from the Since then, however, the ravages of drought Southern States could be brought into Queens in certain States have caused those States to land in competition with Queensland wheat. ask for a review of the position. They wantef1 That would be minous. We should then be some help to be giveJL to fanneTs who were subject to world parity and might not be able likely to lose not only by the low world to sell our wheat either in Australia or market price but also by having only a 50 abroad. So that whatever happens it is to per cent. crop or less, or none at all. Cer the Queensland growers' supreme advantage tain proposals were put forward >Yhich are to arrive at an agreement, the best agreement the subject of the conference now sitting in possible. Canberra. I spoke to the 'l'reasurer, who is representing the Government, by telephone at I ask leave to continue my speech later on. lnnch time, and he told me that there were I must now leave to attend to the telephone three proposals before the conference, but no call from Canberra. 1810 Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. lUr. ~IAHER (West Moreton) (4.52 rise in the prices of quite a number of com p.m.) : The Premier has made a survey of the modities. That could only be explained by one wheat situation and has emphasised that this fact-world economic; causes. vV e know the Bill is really the result of an agreement reason for those rises in prices. It was due between the Commonwealth and the States in to the fact that certain European countries the matter of fixing a minimum home-con bought heavy supplies of wheat, wool, and sumption price for flour, thereby stabilising meat, as well as many other goods, because of the price of wheat on a home-consumption the possibility of war. There must be a basis in Australia. This Bill is complemen good deal of wheat in storage at the present tary to Commonwealth legislation. It pro time. vides for the appointment of a Flour Price :ilir. MAHER: That may be the explana Committee comprising the Director of the tion of it, because the drop in the world price Bureau of Industry, the Commissioner of of wheat is quite out of proportion to the Prices and an officer of the Department of actual increase in the production of wheat Agriculture and Stock, which shall be charged throughout the ~world for the 1938 season as with the responsibility of fixing a minimum compared with the 1937 season. vV e saw in price. February, 1938, that prices up to 4s. 3d. a The Secretary for Agricultul"e and Stock: bushel were obtained for wheat. Does the Bill say, "Commissioner of Prices"~ The Secretary for Agricultur~B and Stock: ~Ir. MAHER: Yes. Wben the Imperial Govemment were buying. The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: lUr. MAHER: That may be the reason. It was our intention to appoint Mr. I,indsey, The world price of wheat is now down to some not Mr. Ferry. thing like 2s. 7 d. a bushel. That is the October price. lUr. ~IAHER: The Bill says, "Commis sioner of Prices or the Deputy Commissioner The only point that exercises the minds of Prices. ' ' of the Queensland wheat farmers relates to their geographical advantage. That is a point 'l'he Secretary for Agricultui'e and Stock: on which they feel they have a distinct advan Yes. tage. The farmers may for a little while be 3Ir. liAHER: The, idea is to fix a mini inclined to hold out from any general scheme mum price of 4s. 8d. a bushel for wheat for that very reason-the fact that they might through a process of stabilisation. There lose what hitherto has been a very profit may be some variation of that figure. able market as compared with the average wheat farmers in the other States of the The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: Commonwealth. I do not think that the price of 4s. 8d. a bushel will be disturbed; it is the method of Quite apart from the points raised by the distributing that 4s. 8d. that is being debated. Premier, wlJ.ich are sound in many respects, as to why we should come into this scheme. lir. lUAHER: Then we may assume that there is the fact ~hat there is a very strong the figure of 4s. 8d. a bushel is the price trend to greatly mcrease the production of agreed upon between the Commonwealth and wheat in Queensland. I am satisfied it is the States, but this price of 4s. 8d. must not only a matter of a year or two when thi8 be misconstrued by those who are not familiar geographical advantage will disappear. That with the wheat situation. It will not neces is due to the development of districts for sarily follow that the wheat farmers will get ivheatgrowing not heretofore used for the 4s. 8d. a bushel for every bushel produced. purpose. A notable instance is the Dalby That is the home-consumption price and the district. Having a very special knowledge o·f export price will have to be taken into thtJ country, I see no reason why the whole account. of the country that lies between the Darling The Premier: Like sugar. Downs and Goondiwincli, and running north to Miles and Emerald, and east to the Main Mr. liAHER: Precisely, and like butter. Range, could not become a wheat-producing The price has to be averaged and the average area. price to the wheatgrow0r might he consider ably less than 4s. 8d. a bushel. At this stage The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: no-one can estimate with accuracy what the Don't forget they have had some phenomenal actual average of the export and home market crops on the Dawson. will be. Everything will depend upon the }fr. MAHER: That is so. As a matter of price ruling at the time the wheat is harvested fact, a man at Taroom has grown excellent and sold. crops of wheat. There are great possibilities There is no doubt about the unsatisfac in this direction. Agriculturally, we have only tory position of the world's market, -but 1t sera tched the surface of this country, and, as has some features that I find r-ather inexplic population increases-and who knows that able. For example, last year excellent prices, world demand will not improve ~-there will ranging up to 5s. a bushel, were obtained fN be a tremendous scope for wheat produ0tion wheat. That is, the 1937 harvest. The world in this State. There is no reason why we crop was 3,804,000,000 bushels. This year should not eventually rank with the great the harvest shows an increase of only 852,000 wheat-producing States of Australia. But our bushels. time is not yet. The Premier: You remember what hap The trend, however, is progressively in the pened last year. There was then a very quick direction of increasing the acreage under Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NOVEMBER.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. 1811 wheat, and that will tend to break down the technique of the negotiations adopted by the geographical advantage that the State various States I am not at all concerned possesses at the pres.ent time; and the wheat because no decision has yet been arrived at. growers will be well advised to look very Psychological and other factors sometimes favourably upon this proposal, and to recog operate in certain directions. Queenslanr1 rlise the >l'isdom of falling in with the Com wants the be,;t agreement that can be made, monwealth scheme, because, after all, it lays not only from our own point of view, but down an equitable principle and provides a from that of Australia. The principle itself reasonably payable price for wheat. Many is sound and ~whatever is decided upon the of the wheatgrowers on the Downs and else result to the wheat farmers of Queensland where are dairy farmers as well, and it would will be infinitely better than if there was be difficult for them to accept the advantage no Australian control. they get through the butter-marketing system In reply to the Leader vf the Opposition, operating throughout Australia and at the I want to emphasise again that the Com same time refuse to fall into line with the monwealth Gov-emment state that they will wheatgrowers of the other States. not use their excise and bounty powers under The Premier: They cannot have it both the Constitution unless all the States agree, ways. so, the alternative to the agreement is laissez faire. Under such conditions wheat would :Thir. MAHER: ThE\Y cannot have it both be brought into Queensland and sold in com ways. petition ·with Queensland wheat. That hap I dic1 not quite follow the Premier's argu pened before when I was Secretary for Agri ment that if they had not fallen in with the culture ancl Stock. Hon. members will remem agreement the New South Wales growers ber that Southern wheat was bought and might decide to flood this market with their Queensland had to export her wheat. wheat, and that would create a very awkward }Ir. JUoore: That was our own fault. position for the marketing of wheat in Queens land. I point out that if other States agreed The PRE}HER: It certainly was not to the scheme, very obviously they would be n1ine. getting world parity plus a subsidy and !Ir. Moore: I do not say it was yours, wheat could not be marketed at a lower price but it was the 1-\Theat Board's fault. than that. The PRR~llER: Yes; but the position The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: that m·ose then resulted probably in loss. l In a State that did not subs0ribe to it. forget the details but I assume it resulted lir. )IAHER: Why would they take in loss to the wheatgrowers. If that situa "·heat R'lmy from Victoria and New South tion arose now the possibility is that the \Vales where they could get a price of, say, losses would be infinitely g1·eater, but I do 3s. a hnshel on the average, and sell it for not think that constitutionallY the Common less hereW ~wealth Government can exercise their powers of bounty and excise in a limited degree. The Premier: You did not follow me. I I think hon. members follow what I mean pointed out that if there was no scheme at all it has to be Commonwealth-wide in its impli "'e might not be able to sell wheat. cation-and therefore Queensland is pressing Jir. ::ILtHER: If there was no scheme at for the best scheme possible in the interests am not only of our own wheatgrowers but in the interests of the general stabilisation policy The Premier: Yes. that we believe in. 3'fr. liAHER: Very obviously we should Of course, in these things conditions vary then be in a very difficult position indeed. very rapidly. I remember that five years All the canons of logic and common sense ago at the instigation of Argentina an suggest that the wheatgrowers of Queenslan1 international agreement in regard to wheat should agree to this proposal, and make it an was entered upon months before the volume Australian-wide scheme. I have not the of the wheat harvest was known. In the slightest doubt the great majority of wheat following year there was a drought in growers will agree to it. Canada, ·which reduced the world's output by millions of bushels. 'l'he international agree I think there is a provision in the Bill that ment was then scrapped and the first to if the message the Premier is waiting for break it was the original sponsor. But when from Canberra is delayed until after the nn agreement is made and ratified by registra adjonrnment of the House, whatPver is agreed tion of all the Australian Parliaments, that upon can be incorporated by Order in Council. situation cannot arise. The Premier: " Make such adjustment as Comparing the ]Jrices operating last year may be necessary.'' with those for the present year, there is no 1\Ir. ::\IAHER: As far as the Opposition doubt that the factors that usually operate are concerned, we will support the Bill. to cause a rise in the world's prices did not exist last year. The rise that took place The PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jnst year ~was due to the fact that every Iviackay) ( 5.5 p.m.) : There is not much more Government that could afford to do so, in to say other than that no decision has yet view of the world possibilities that then been arriYed at. There will, of course, be existed, bought wheat. 'rhey could not afford a decision. Understanding something of the to be without it and bought to the full 1812 Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [ ASSEl\fBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. extent of their capacity. That effected a rise sary to let the wheat farmers know what the not only in wheat but in other commodities. true position is with regard to the marketing vVe do not know whether that will again hap of wheat. Some few years ago, when similar pen, but under this Bill ''"e are making pro legislation was introduced in this House, I vision for control and that of itself is a was severely criticised by the wheat farmers good thing. on the Dading Downs for statements I hacl made in this Chamber. The clause of the Bill refened to by the Leader of the Opposition in his final remark The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: operates for only one year. It enables us You were not the only one. to vary the agreement to the extent agreed upon by the respecth-e Governments at lUr. lUULLER: Nevertheless, I felt that Canberra. those gentlemen would not have criticised my speech in the manner they dicl if they had lifr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.10 understood what the system of Commomvealtll p.m.): I should like to ask the Secretary for equalisation would mean in practice. Agriculture and Stock, if I may, if the mana The Minister mentioned that he expected ger of the Wheat Board is working amicably that geographical conditions might return to with him and if he is in agreement with all the .Queensland growers about 6d. in addition this~ to Darling Harbour price. We have to remem The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: ber that we are largely estimating our crop The manager of the Wheat Board and officers and what proportion of it will be s_old ~or of my department have been in collaboration local consumption, and we are only estlmatmg and worked out a certain basis, which will be world parity which it is v~rtually impossible presented to the committee that will be former} to do accurately, as there is not the slightest for the consideration of this matter. doubt that the world markets look bad. Darl ing Harbour price might be estimated .at Mr. YEATES: Home consumption 2s. 81d., but it is doubtful whether that pnce appears to me to be about 5,500,000 bushels. will hold. We were looking for a crop of 7,000,000, but whether the rain has alterer1 that estimate The Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: 'l'he indications unfortunately are for a down I am' not quite sure. At any rate, it seems to me that we shall produce about 6,000,000 ward trend. bushels. We might think that that is a 1Ur. ~IULLER: It is true that large great deal, but we are the baby State in quantities of wheat are in store, and it is wheatgrowing. I am looking forward to the impossible to estimate the quantity of wheat day when we shall be growing wheat in all that may be stored. Recent experience gave that area between Thallon and Emerald, with us some valuable information about storing the exception of the coast belt. If we c1o other foodstuffs. We are, for instance, suffer not go further out the Japanese will. ing a fall in price because of the storage of I notice from the chart of the Wheat Board large quantities of butter. in Toowoomba that some time in April, 1937, The argument that >ve are entitled to a geo the price was 2s'. Sd. a bushel at Darling Har graphical advantage is to my mind not worth bour, and by December it rose to 4s. 11d. anything to the wheatgrmYer of this State. Whilst speaking to the Premier of Victoria It may be all right for propaganda purposes the other day, and checking up calculations to say that if the price at Darling Harbour is in the offices there, I found that, unfortu 2s. Sd. we are entitled to 3s. 2d., but that nately for them, they will have just about does not carry any weight with me because I enough wheat for home consumption. That am fearful of what might happen to Darling might help us-it is an ill-wind that blows Harbour prices. A rough estimate of our crop nobody any good. We are not looking for leads me to believe that we shall have to any advantage of that kind, but it may teucl export about four-fifths of our crop. to help us. The Secretary for Agricultm'e and Stock: I take it that when this Bill is passed a tax Not actually to export-but we shall have to on flour will be collt'cted bv the miller and put about four-fifths of it into stabilisation that money so raised will pay" a certain amount from the overseas price. of the difference between the price on the lUr. MULLER: It is very difficult, I sup overseas market and the amount we are trying pose, for anyone to say what quantity will to fix-4s. Sd. a bushel. At the present time have to be sold at world prices, but supposing railage is pooled. The man who is growing ,,.e had to sell four-fifths of it at 2s. Sd. anc1 wheat at Goondiwindi pays no more railage one-fifth at the home consumption price, it than the man who is growing it next door to would net almost as much as Queensland the Wheat Board's store at Toowoomba. I would receive with a parity of 2s. 8d. plus take it that under this Bill that 4s. Sd. will geographical advantage. So if you take the be less the freight from country stations. I position at its worst you will find that the should like to know from the Minister whether Queensland grower will get just as much as that is so. would if he was entitled to rely on ''catch-as Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (5.14 p.m.): I catch-can'' methods. should like to support the principle of the What I am fearful about, on the point the Bill. I was rather surprised at a statement Premier made, is that our price here may be made by the Premier and the Secretary for anything. If the Southern States saw :fit to Agriculture and Stock that it might be neces- unload their surplus we should be compelled Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NovEMBER.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. 1813 to market it at any old price, which might be Clause 7--Flour Price Committee-- 2s.-I should not be exaggerating, on the prospects of >Yorld markets, if I said that Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.25 there was a danger that the price might fall p.m.): I do not like the way this Bill is being to 2s. If you base your calculations on the rushed through all its stages. I have only estimate of four-fifths at world parity you had this Bill presented to me about half a will find that in that event the price would be minute ago. If one does not get up and say about 2s. 6;td. Therefore the wheatgrower something, it will be passed through all its stands to gain and takes no risk by coming stages whether it is right or wrong. I asked into the Commonwealth pool. the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock certain questions, but he was busy with the I chiefly rose to support the principle of Premier and probably did not hear what I the Bill. I think that with the operation of said. I understand that the price for wheat section 92 of the Constitution we are all com agreed upon is 4s. 8d. per bushel -at country pelled to take the coast of Australia as our sidings, and that this would be made up by boundary and not to regard State boundaries. the overseas price plus a tax on flour collected If we take the small view and tell the New by the miller. Is that so f South vVales growers that we arr entitled to something more than they are getting because The Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: it costs them something to send it to Queens No. land, that argument applies all round. We The Premier: You have got it all wrong. must remember that if we are going to take Your calculations are all wrong. other commodities into consideration Queens land stands to lose perhaps more than any lUr. YEATES: How are we to know what other State. the position is when we have had the Bill in our hands for only about 30 seconds~ I am much concerned about the attitude of South Australia to the principle of Common The PremJer: We are not responsible wealth equalisation. While I realise that two for your understanding. wrongs do not make a right, I think we should Mr. YEATES: That is a nice excuse for not follow the example that South Australia you to give. has set. Up to the present that State has not seen fit to come into the equalisation scheme The Premier: It is not an excuse; it is for the marketing of butter, but it is pre a reason. pared to do so with cheese, because it is a Order! very large exporter of cheese and a very The CHAIRMAN: large exporter of wheat. It is looking for the The Pl•emier: If you cannot understand equalisation scheme for wheat for the purpose the position that is not our fault. of getting rid of its surplus production. That Clause 7, as read, agreed to. might have a bad affect on this scheme, never theless I think that we must take the big view. This is not a party question, and if there is Clause 8-Fixation of minimum price for going to be any dispute from a party point of flour- view, or any attempt is made to make political Mr. MOO HE (Aubigny) (5.28 p.m.) .: This capital out of it, quite a lot will be said out is an extraordinary clause. It deal.s wrth the side. Even if the Wheat Board is perhaps committee appointed for the fixatiOn of the not taking the correct view I think the growers minimum price of flour. It says- should be informed of the actual position and in their interests should be told that the Com '' (1.) The Committee shall from time to monwealth scheme of marketing would be to time by notification in the 'Gazette' fix their advantage. the minimum price at which flour may be sold at the place of manufacture by the Motion (Mr. Bulcock) agreed to. manufacturer thereof: Resolution reported. "Provided that in no case shall the mini mum price so fixed for ordinary wheaten flour be less than eleven pounds per 1on: FIRST READING. "Provided further, that no price fixed Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Bul under this section shall apply to flour sold cock, read a first time. for export from Australia. "(2.) Any price so fixed for flour may SECOND READING. vary- The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ( a) According to the locality in which AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, the flour is manufactured; Bar coo) : I move- (b) According to the quantities in '' That the Bill be now read a second which the flour is sold; time.'' (c) According to the value of the bags, Motion agreed to. packages, or other containers in which the flour is sold; CoMMITTEE. (d) According to the quality, grade, or variety of the flour; and (Mr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) (e) According to any other matters or Clauses 1 to 6, both inclusive, as read, circumstances which. the Committee think agreed to. proper to take into consideration.'' 1814 Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. Was I not right in understanding from this The Premier: The interstate agreement Bill that the price of flour was not to Yary would preyeut dumping and to that extent according to the situation of where the wheat \Ye get control of our market. was sold~ Is not the price of wheat to be 4s. Sd. a bushel at country sidings, and is it JUr. lUOORE: It was not a question of not to be calculated at an even price all over clumping; it was a question of selling the the StateW flour at the same price; it was a question of the transport, and the usual custom in JUr. Yeates: That is what I have asked trade. "\_ large part of the Northern sup twice. plies consiste(1 of flour from the Sydney mills. 'fhe Premier: That is not the net price. There was only one period when the Sugar Acquisition Act was aYailed of temporarily, 1\Ir. ~:WORE: No; that is not the net ancl an agreement was made with the millers price; it is the home-consumption price. in New South \Vales that they would not undersell for that period. It seems to me The Premier: Yes. the same factors would operate now as JUr. ::IIOORE: The price of wheat is not generally operate, and we are not likely to going to be 4s. Sd. in Brisbane and 5s. in get a greater trade with the North than we TmmsYille. It is to be a State-wide fixed ];aye under normal conditions. price~ I IYonden'd when I saw the paragraph Tile S·ecretary for Agriculture and Stock: regarding the fixing of the price for flour 4s. Sd. at country sidings. and saw that it might Yary ''According to the locality in which the flour is m:mufac ~Ir. ~IOORE: The price is to be e,qualised tured,'' 1vhether we were going to try to all oYer the State. That is to say, if the oYercome the difficulty by fixing a variation freight on wheat from Dalby to Brisbane is in pricPs; but as the price for wheat is to 4d. a bushel, the price will not be 5s. in be a State-wide price and is not to fluctuate Brisbane and 4s. Sd. in Dalby~ I presume according to the area in which it is grown that flour, whether manufactured in Dalby, or milled-except in the case of a mill at a place like \Varwick that may be open to Wa•rwick, Brisbane, or l\Iaryborough, will be interstate competition-then the only reason sold at the same price. The price is to be a I could see for the provision about fixing State-wide one. The only difference in the the price ''According to the localitv in ·which price of flour will be due to the district in the flour is manufacture(1'' was perhaps an which it is manufactured, or to interstate endeaYour to get the trade by fixing a lower competition. I presume that is what it means. price for the flour manufactured in a par It does not mean there is to be a differentia ticular mill. I was interested when I saw a tion in the prices. clause that set out the Yarious conditions affPcting the price to leaTn the reason for 'l'he Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: them. It is difficult to understand a Bill No. when one has it only a short timE and finds JUr. 3IOORE: Then it says that the price a new sot of conditions laid clown as a guide may \ar:·-' 'According to the quantities in to the commHtee that is going to fix the which the flour is sold.'' I suppose that price. The clause also says that the price always operates more or less. may vary-'' According to other matters and circumstances which the committee think The Premier: That has always operated. proper to take into consideration.'' That If you do not haYe to transfer wheat by covers a tremendously wide field. There is rail to Brisbane you haYe to tmnsfer the transport to the North and the railway freight flouT. ani! the prices to be paid to haYe it milled in particular places to get it to the X orth JUr. 1UOORE: I understand that. Either in order to secure that market. All these the Premier or the M:inister said that one may be matters for the committee to take adyantage we should obtain would be that into consideration. the Queensla.nd market would be secured for Queensland wheat. I am a bit doubtful I suppose this Bill is ~imilar to the legisla about that. :E'rom experience we know that tion that is to be passed by the other States. thel'e are many sellers of flour in the North No donbt, it lws been taken won1 for word who obtain their supplie~ from Sydney. It from the legislation of other States. If the is almost as cheap to send flour from Sydney same basis for the fixation of prices is ;,o to TmYnsYille as it is to scncl flour from operate in all the other States as under this Brisbane to Townsville; in some cases it Bill, it is rather difficult to understand the used to be a little cheaper. I 1ms won reason for it, and, considering that we are dering 1vhere the basis for the statement that agreeing to a fixed price for all wheat in all we 1vould conserve the Queensland market the States, why is the locality of the manufac came in. ture of flour to be taken into consideration in the fixation of price by the committee f Per The Premier interjected. sonally, I cannot see the reason for it. 1\'Ir. ~IOORE: I quite, realise that. It seems to me that the same conditions would JUr. Nilm~ro (Oxley) (5.37 p.m.): r operate under this Bill as would operate when desire to make inquiries as regards bran and we come under the Commonwealth-wide fixa pollard. Provision is made that a minimum tion. The general trade in flour was only of price for flour mnst be fixed. Are we to affected in one or two years. be dependent on that for the price of bran Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NovEMBER.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. 1815 and pollard~ Is there a provision in the Bill in for it nor recommended that we stay out for the fixation of the price of these com of it. 'vVe have evolved a formula, however, modities or is that left to the whim of the in consultation with the Wheat Board. millerf I should like to correct one statement that The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTGRE was made by' the hon. member. He said that AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) he had just received a copy of the Bill. In ( 5.38 p.m.) : The answer to the query of the fairness to him I think I should tell him that hon. member is that the Commissioner of it is the custom in this Chamber, when a Bill Prices, in the future, as in the past, will haYe is being brought down under these circum control, therefore, we have a controlled price stances, to extend the courtesy of a copy to of all three commodities. the Leader of the Opposition, and that was Now, let me answer the question asked by done. the hon. member for East Toowoomba. I ~Ir. Mal1er: You did not give me much can assure him that the statement he made tinl'e to read it. about the price basis is entirely wrong. It does not mean, and it would be Yery wrong if The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULl'URE the impression went abroad, that this Bill AND STOCK: The hon. gentlemam got the gave a uniform secured price at the rate of Bill as soon as it was finalised. 4s. 8d. a bushel, f.a.g. for all the wheat The Premier: I told the Draftsman to growers of Australia. It does not mean any give you a copy of the Bill as soon as it was such thing. Roughly speaking, it means that finalised. approximately one-fifth of the entire produc tion in Australia will attract 4s. Sd. a bushel The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE and four-fifths of the wheat will attract over AND STOCK: I attended the conference seas parity. It has got to establish a common that initiated the first agreement. Then a price of f.a.g. wheat, as it were, and that second conference was held, and there was will probably result in the payment of a some suggestion of a variation. Our Treasurer bounty of approximately 6d. a bushel to the is in Canberra at the present time and there growers over the export price. is a still further suggestion of d variation. In fact, when the Premier wa~ speaking I was As to the question raised by the Deputy talking to the T'reasurer on the telephone, Leader of the Opposition, the Bill is a cmn nnd ho told me that no finality has yet been mon structure, and is similar to the Bills being reached and there is verv little likelihood that passed by the other States in the Common fiua.lity will be reached to-day. He thinks wealth. As a matter of fact, the fundamental that the conference will go on until to-morrow. structure was laid do>Yn by one State, and a copy was sent to the various other States. Jir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.43 p.m.) : This is not one of those partv thin as The question the hon. gentleman raises will that are holding up our country. would obviously give rise to some concern. As far Wh~t as is humanly possible, the largest volume have been wrong with giving us a copy of the Bill yesterday~ of Queensland wheat should be gristed in Queensland, and that is the objective of the Tlte Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: Bill, but there are geographical and other I assure the hon. member that I did not have faetors that obviously cause prices to vary, it myself. and while it may not be possible to recover the North Queensland trade lost some years IUr. NICKLIN (Murrumba) (5.44 p.m.): ago to the Queensland wheatgrowers, it is ?'he hon. m~mber for Oxlcy raised a very obvious that, as the result of the operation Important pomt when l1e dealt with the price of this scheme, the diminution of the con of bran and pollard. In Queensland it has sumption of Queensland's supply will be ranged from 20s. to £2 a ton above the price arrested, and there will be an increase in paid in the other States for these products. flour gristed from Queensland wheat. I am I ?nderstand that ~he reason for the higher not optimistic enough to believe that we shall rnce here wns to g11-e some protection to our grist the whole of our requirements here, but wheatgrowers in order to enable them to u·et I do think that a bigger proportion of our a higher price for their wheat. Now that needs will be supplied by local mills under that reason has gone, and that the Queensland the scheme than would if no scheme operated. wheatgrowers will get exactly the same price as the wheatgrowers in the other States I Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.41 think that the prices of bran and poll~rd p.m.): I have now received a copy of the should be looked into, because it is vital to Bill, and I am satisfied that it is similar to the poultry farmer and the stockbreefler that the Bills that' are being put through by the that extra £2 a ton be taken off. I hope other States. I am not here to obstruct busi that the Minister will be able to give some ness, but I am· always going to get 100 per help to those two classes of primary producers cent. of privileges for my electorate. I shoulfl so that they m·ay be able to get bran and like to know definitely if the Queensland State pollard at the same price as that paid in \Vheat Board recommends that the Govern the other States. ment go in for this proposal. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) (5.45 p.m.): I do not know whether hon. ( 5.42 p.m.) : As a matter of fact, the Wheat members have observed that this Bill applies Board has neither recommended that we go only to wheat that is converted into flour, so 1816 Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Bill. that the poultry farmer obtains his supplies lUr. llfULLER (Fassifern) (5.50 p.m.): at world parity rather than home-consump The clause says that the Governor in Council :ion prices. may from time to time determine the basis upon which such moneys shall be distributed. Mr. :lioore: They have to pay more than Cim the Minister tell us whether there is any the millers do now. danger of varying that method of distribu tion and whether there is any possibility of The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE future Commonwealth legislation to provide AND STOCI(: That seems to be a common that area as well as production shall be taken practice throughout Australia. Th~ poultry into account in connection with the distribu farmer is entirely excluded from tins 4s. 8d. tion. If so, that would be a great pity. A home-consumption price, and it fa;lls back t_o few years ago a distribution was made on parity price. That was the unammous decl· the basis of acreage as well as production. sion of the conference-that poultry foods Has the Minister any information on the of wheat origin should be excluded. point~ I have not lost sight of the bran and pol:ard question, and I know it is wi~hin the provn;ce The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUUE of the Commissioner of Pnces to examme AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) the position. It may not be altogether safe (5.51 p.m.): I am afraid that I cannot give to sav that the Queensland price should be the hon. member very much information. Dur the same as the Sydney price. I have ing the discussion at the conferences I frequently analyse(l the figures-it is a attended in Sydney and Canberra I expressed burning question in some quarters-and I find the view that it should be on a production that the mills in the South invariably run basis, because that is the only sound basis. three shifts, so that their overhead expense With an acreage basis all sorts of subterfuges is ob,-iously less than ours on two shifts or are engaged ·in and all sorts of difficulties one shift, and that obviously has some rela arise. I have had the experience of distribu tion to the price of the article. I assure the ting funds on an acreage basis and I can hon. member that when this Bill is through assure the hon. member that I do not want and the scheme is working, I will ask Mr. to go through it again. Lindsev or Mr. Ferry to make an investiga JUr. Muller: It always lends itself to tion o{ bran and pollard prices. abuse. Cln use 8, as read, agreed to. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE Clauses 9 to 13, both inclusive, as read, AXD STOCK: A man will harrow in a few acres of wheat, feed off it, and count that agreed to. as acreage planted. I believe that the produc tion basis is the only sound basis. All the Clause 14-Distribution to wheatgrowers other States were in agreement on that point, but subsequently the drought position gravely )lr. liiOORE (Aubigny) (5.48 p.m.): Does reduced the crops in Victoria, Southern New this clause refer to the moneys that come from South Wales, and South Australia, and these the extra price for the wheat for home con three States are now agitating for a basis of sumption above world parity, which is all flour gristed. Our Treasurer is wrestling with paid to the Commonwealth and distributed this problem at Canberra at the present time by it on the basis of the consumption in the and no finality has yet been reached. various States~ The Sem·etary for Agricultur•!l and Stock: lUr. DEACON (Cunningham) (5.53 p.m.): Yes. The production basis is the sound basis, but there are some growers who grow the wheat lUr. ~IOORE: Th~ State does not handle for the grain only, others purely for feed, and the difference, but the Commonwealth makes others divide the crop. The only sound and the distribution~ fair way of dealing with all the growers is on The Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: a production basis. Of course some will suffer It is rather a legal fiction. by that, but we cannot have an absolutely fair system. The production basis is the lUr. J'IOORE: Whatever it may be, it nearest we can 1get to it, and it is the fairest certainly looks rather peculiar. basis for many reasons. The SECRETARY l<'OR AGRICULTURE The Secretary for Agricultur•e and Stock: A~n S'fOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) I agree with you. ( 5.49 p.m.) : I will explain the position. The Clause 14, as read, agreed to. Commonwealth can exercise excise and bounty powers. The excise and bounty will be col Clause 15-Regulations-as read, agreed to. lected and distributed at law by the Common wealth authority, which is the only authority Clause 16!--Effect of pubUcation in the that has any power to do so under the Con ''Gazette'' of Proclamations, etc.- stitution. This is obviously a clause to recon dle a practice that is exclusive to the Com lllr. UUSSELL (Hamilton) {5.54 p.m.): monwealth with a beneficial result to the I understood the Minister to say that this States concerned. I understand the clause Bill was an exact copy of the Bills that was actually drafted by the Commonwealth had been introduced in the other States. If Attorney-G~neral to overcome that difficulty. that is so, then this clause is an exact replica Wheat Stabilisation Bill. [16 NovEMBER.] Industrial Conciliation, &c., Bill. 1817 or similar to the relevant clause appearin:; in INDUS'TRIAL CONCILIATION AND the other Bills in regard to the publication of ARBITRATION ACTS AND OTHER proclamations and Orders in Council. The ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. Minister knows my views on this matter. 1 have refrained in the last few days from INITIATION IN f'OMMITTEE. moving any amendment in regard to regula (Mr. Hanson, Bmanda, in the chair.) tions, but I notice that this clause also con tains that obnoxious provision that the pro The SECRETARY FOR :liiNES (Hon. clamations and Orders in Council shall not be T. A. Foley, Normanby) (7 p.m.): I move- questioned in any proceedings whatsoever. '' That it is desirable that a Bill be intro The Minister does not agree with me on this duced to amend 'l'he In,1ustrial Conciliation matter, but that does not alter my view. I and Arbitration Acts, 1932 to 1937, The think it is my duty at the tail end of the Profiteering Prevention Act of 1920, and session to enter my protest against the power ThB Coal Production Regulation Acts, 1933 taken by the Government and the Cabinet of to 1935, in ,certain particulars." denying the right of any citizen to question any of the regulations made by the Governor The Bill covers some new features that the in Council. It would be interesting to know administration of the Acts mentioned has shown if the legislation of the other States contained to be necessary. a similar clause to this one. If so my objec tion falls to the ground. A very important provision of the Bill deals with the temperatures in underground At the same time it would not alter my occupations. At present the Industrial Court personal Yiew that the Minister under this has jurisdiction to order an employer to pro clause is taking too much power unto himself vide and operate suit>eble ventilating appli to prevent regulations issued under this mea ances where the tempuature is unduly high, sme from being questioned in a court of to provide that ventilation shall be adequate law. I have sounded a warning note before to maintain a reasonable limit of humidity, that I think we shall rue the day when we and to fix the maximum· daily working hours began to interfere with the functions of our at{ such less number than eight as the court judiciary. It has always been one of the may think fit, provided that in all cases the recognised privileges of the nation that any employee is paid for the full shift or the disgruntled citizen can appeal against our half-shift as the case mav be. Under the regulations, hut according to this clause they 1932 Act the matter is left to thr court, and will have the force of Jaw. It was never certain awards made by the court made pro intended that regulations per se should be vision for temperatures on the wet bulb of on all-fours with the sections of an Act under not le'ls than 84 degrees Fahrenheit in some which they were issued. mines and as high as 85 in others. The scale I merely wish to enter my protest at the is >vorked out scientifically, from a certain continuance of this practice. Is this clause basis, as is usually adopted in coalmines under an exad copy of the similar clause in the the Mines Regulation Acts. In essence the Bill gives virtually the same conditions as other States' Acts~ a e provided for under the Mines Regulation The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE Acts. That is t<> say, that Act says- AND STOCK (Hon. F. W. Bulcock, Barcoo) '' 'Where the temperaJnre in the mine ( 5.56 p.m.) : I am afraid I cannot answer workings is unavoidably high the ventila· the hon. member's question. l have already tion shall be adequate to maintain a reason told this Chamber that we received a able limit of humidity--that is to say, at a skeleton Bill, and thereafter proceeded to temperature of 80 degrees Fahrenheit. By put the flesh on the skeleton. The principles a dry bulb thermomete1· the reading of the had bee~1 agreed to by all the States. See wet bulb should be 78 degrees Fahrenheit ing that >Ye have not a copy of the other and for every two degrees rise in tempera States' Bills I am not prepared to say that ture above SO degrees Fahrenheit by a dry this clause is identical with a similar clause bulb thermometer there shonl(] be an addi in their legislation. tional degree of difference between the dry and wet bulb readings. Where the per I know that it is a necessity to have strin con tage of humi,Ety is greater than is shown gent powers to prevent any person from above in all confined places and dend ends, breaking laws snch as this. The hon. mem suitable mechanical ventilating appliances ber must remember that there is a J mnes shall be provided and operated.'' in eYery industry and I should be loth to pass That is the provision contained in the :Mines a Bill of this description that did not give Regulation Acts. me strict regulation powers in order to Bnforce the intention of this Parliament. For exampl~, if the dr;-bulb reading is s:; That is a very desirable power. \lccurred of all the members of the partner tics prescribed for breaches of the Act were ship or firm as well as the employees. too severe. On this occasion we propose to ease the penalties sommYhat and make tl~<: J\Ir. Yeates : If there are three in part position lighter for the employee. nership, they get the three of them~ llir. Yeates: What about the employer? The SECl{ETARY FOR JliiNES: That is Are you reducing the penalties on him, too'? so. It is possible, for instance, for an inspector of the Department of Labour and 'f'lle SECRETARY l<'OR }liNES: I have Industry to take action against the person already explained that where there is a part who is looked upon as the head of the firm. nership there will be a definite improYcment In nWD:V <·ases, if that person was found as rcgmds members of the partnership. guilty, the industrial union affected has taken Experience has shown that since the Act was action against the other members of the firm, amended there has been a general tendency ancl in the rase I mentioned the fhm was to comply with it, and as time goes on . I involved in penalties amounting to £160. think it will be found that conditions m lUr. 2'\Iaher: That is very harsh. this respect \Yill improve further and that there will be no need for so manv prosecu The SECRE'fARY FOR ]}liNES: Yes. tions. This is one of the most difficult trades We knmY that causes hardship. It is not to deal with. Throughout the world an intended to alter the court's discretion as to attempt is being made to restrict baking to one individual as far as both minimum and certain hours and to abolish night baking maximum penalties are concerned, but if there altogether. Even the League of Nations has are other's in the firm the court will have dealt iYith the problem. A considerable num discretion, according to the circumstances of ber of countries have fallen into line, some the case, to impose a penalty below the mini have passed the necessary legislation, and mum. others contemplate doing so. In some coun I\Ir. ]}Iaher: Why inflict a double penalty tries the penalty for offences is imprison at alH ment. Tile SECUETARY FOR lliiNES: There Mr. Yeates: Do they deal with hotels, has been a good deal of difficulty, from too~ the time when we first sought to diseiplino The SECRETARY FOR JlHNES: I am not this industrv. We have had a measure of dealing with that question now, nor de> we success, on(l recently there haYe been signs propose to go so far as to impose imprison of compliance with tlle Act. If we relax ment for offences against the Act. Vl e are our effOTts, there is a possibility that we confident that these amendments will bring shall reYcrt to the old conditions. By having about improved conditions in the baking that pm,·er and leaying it to the disci·etion of trade, because experience has shown that the jll(]nctrial magistrate, \Ye know that the there is now a general tendency to comply fair thing will be done, arcording to the with the Act. circumst::n.1ces presented to the court. The Bill also provides that the employers There is another phase of the same question shall keep a time and \Yagcs book for a that we intend to deal with, namely, in regard period of at least 6 months. That may to employees. appear too long a period for employers to I\Ir. Yeates: Bakers' employees? kP If we admit this principle now that Parlia Itir. Riordan: Agreed to by the ment is going to fix hours in industry, where employers. is it going to stop? What other legislation is likely to come in containing similar provi 3Ir. MAHER: It is a dangerous principle. sions? It is an easy way of evading the It does not matter who agreed to it. If the court. The court calls evidence in these employers agreed to it, it should not be done matters, it wa11ts to know whether it is justi in this way. They should have stood by the fied in gTanting a demand of this nature. principle that it be submitted to the court and ratified by the court. That is the posi M:I·. Riordan: Do you know the House of tion. We caniwt have it both ways. Commons does the same thing under certain The Secretary for lllines: Parliament did conditions~ exactly the same in 1916 and in 1923. In Itir. ~IAHER: I am not concerned with 1929 your Government exempted the miners ,_-hat the House uf Commons does or what the from the court . .Japanese Diet does or any other authority throughout the world. I am concerned atout llir. ItiAHER: The hon. gentleman is conditions that operate in Queensland. 'l'he delving into past history and going back to hon. gentleman knows full well that the time before the question was ultimately Industrial Court has to determine all these decided. For many years it has been the matters, and if anybody opposed to the hon. supreme function of the Industrial Court to member for Bowen suggested that the whole adjudicate on the important question of hours question of hours and wages should be taken in industry. Why should the Minister do from the Industrial Court he might be one anything to break down that important prin of the stoutest opponents of it-as a ciple~ It appears that it is the thin edge of matter of fact he was in 1930 when the the wedge, and unless it is stoutly resisted restriction cunditions were brought down. we shall have further legislation-- He, and every other member of the Govern The Premier: As a matter of fact, the ment Party strongly assailed the Government principle you object to was approved by because they took certain people out of the Parliament as far back as 1923. jurisdiction of the Industrial Court. Never theless, when it suits the needs of the Govern Mr. lliAHER: The Minister made a pre ment Party they propose to put aside the cisely similar interjection, but do not forget Industrial Court for some undi~closed reason that the question whether the Industrial Court or other, and, by the weight of numbers put should fix hours was not then finally settled. this provision through the House easily. 'rhat There was a great deal of ferment in the is an encroachment on the rights of the Indus political party led by the hon. gentleman in trial Court, and on no account can we agree those distant days as to whether this was a to it. matter for the court or for Parliament, and 'l'he Industrial Court is maintained by the even to-day in . the industrial wing of the taxpayer so that both sides of industry,_ the Labour Party there are many advocates for employPr and the employee, can meet m a the principle that the question of hours shall judicial atmosphere, state their case and be determined by Parliament and not by the obtain a decision based on the weight of evid court. My understanding has been that hon. ence. All reasonable-minded people agree members in this Chamber at any Tate, have that that is the right thing to do, but that always stood by the principle that the court rule is not being observed in this Bill. should fix hours in industry after hearing the What has persuaded the Minister to take evidence. this out of the hands of the court~ What What evidence has the Opposition to-night influences are at work to attack the Indus to decide a matter of this kind~ We do not trial Court in this way~ know the conditions that obtain in the coal Mr. Riordan: Do you not know it is the mines. We have not one tittle of evidence result of a select committee~ for or against the proposal and we have always supported the principle that hours and Mr. MAHER: It does not matter whether wages shall be fixed and determined by the it is the result of a select committee or not. Industrial Court. That is the proper place for such a determination-in an atmosphere Mr. Riordan: You are not concerned far removed from political antagonism. In about an opinion, only your own. judicial surroundings these matters can be The CHAIRiliAN: Order! determined on the basis of the only factor that should count-the weight of evidence. If the :Mr. MAHER: The question of hours unions connected with the coalmining industry should be determined by the Industrial Court. feel that they have a case in this mr~tter where It is not a matter for this Parliament and miners are workir1g in very oppressive it is something entirely new for the Minister temperatures, they can put their case to the to bring in a clause in a Bill of this kind Industrial Court. I do not think there can giving a certain section in industry a reduc be any escape from the fairness of the point tion of hours. If Parliament agrees to this a of view that the matter should be left to the precedent will be created and other . unions Industrial Court for determination. I know will quote it as an example when askmg the that miners have to work under difficult con Ministers of the various departments that ditions. affect them to bring in legislation giving them the same conditions-a reduction in i'Ir. Riordan: Only under ce,rtain con hours by parliamentary enactment. ditions is the six-hour day to operate. 1822 Industrial Conciliation, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. :::I'Ir. JUAHER.: Then let the court decide of the pa.rtners. The industrial inspector when that \Yill be. claimed that the magistrate was acting out lUr. Rioriian: You are trying to make out sine the law, ancl I think he >Yas, hut he that this is a general application of a reduc acted justly. tion of hours. In all the Bills I have seen dealing with IUr. MAHER: If it is not resisted it is this matter each partner can be fined for an going to be quoted as a precedent. Other offence. I think it would be far more equi unions will demand the same rights anr1 bring table if only the firm could be proceeded Jlressure to hear on hon. members of the against. Justice would be done in such cases. 'Government Party to give them those rights. There nre a number of other points involved That >vonlcl be an easier way to get it in the Bill. There is the appointment of the through the strength of numbers of this Commissioner of Prices. I suppose that Jl.fr. Parliament-than by making a claim to the Lindsey is to he promoted to this office. He in the working place where the employee NOES, 15. is occupied: '' Mr. Clayton Mr. Nimmo Daniel Russell 'fhe clause is m'erely a legalisation of an Dart Walker existing practice that formerly was statute Deacon Yeates law. No one experienced in the business takes Edwards Maher Tellers: any exception to it, or has taken any excep Massey Macdonald tion to it. It merely provides that whatever Moo re Muller the award hours might be under normal con Nicklin ditions, where abnormal conditions supervene PAlRS. because high temperature or humidity affects AYES. NOES. the health and vitality of the men, the hours Mr. Cooper Mr. Brand shall be graded down as the humidity and Hynes Plunkett temperature increase. That is perfectly reasonable and sound, and no one with any Resolved rn the af-firmative. sense of humanity would desire to have any Resolution reportc they pick out the bakers and let the publican part relating to coalmining represents more . sell a.ll hours of the day. than its fair share of the Bill. I take it that the Bill refers to all forms of mining and Mr. SPEAKER: Not only shall I have to :ask the hon. member to discontinue his speech should do so. It seems to me that this Bill and resume his seat, but if it were not so has been forced on the Government by the near the end of the session I should name the settlement of the coal strike. It is apparent hon. member for disobeying the Chair which that the coalminers will not now be asked to he is deliberately doing. It would be' foolish 1rork more than a certain number of hours in now to name him, because suspension at this a certain temperature, certainly a lesser num hour of the session would be really a farce ber of hours than provided for in the award. but I advise him to mend his ways before h~ The settlement could not have been given comes into this House next session. effect to without the introduction of this Bill. Therefore, this Bill is really implementing the ~Ir. YEATES: I will do it in Committee. coal strike settlement. ~Ir. :DEACON (Cunningham) (8.5.2 p.m.): Itlr. }'arrell: What is wrong with that? In the short time that we hftve had to con lUr. DEACON: I am not opposing it on sider the Bill I have gathered that lts main that ground. object is to deal with the powers of the court in relation to the coalmining indusb-y. It I\Ir. Duggan: Why are you speaking? deals more with coalmining than any other fOTm of mining. Mr. DEACON: Th~ coalminers in this State defied the court, under whose award they The Secretary for Mines: There is no coal were operating, defied the law, and eventually mining about the Bill. ·won. Mr. :DEACON: It deals more with coal I\lr. SPEAI{ER: Order! Will the hon. mining than with any other form of mining. member get back to the Bill~ It refers to a six-hour day, to temperatures I\lr. :DEACON: Right throughout the in the mines, and to certain other things, a1l elauses in this Bill are references to the coal of wllich are contained in the settlement relat mining industry. Practically the whole of ing to the recent coal strike. clause 2 refers to legislation governing coal- Mr. Gledson: It has nothing to do with mines. (Interjections.) coalmining. I\Ir. SPEAKER: Order! JUr. DEACON: The hon. member for Jllr. :DEACON: No other section of the r pswich is taking a keener interest in this mining industry is mentioned in clause 2. Bill than any other that has been before the They are certainly not mentioned. Let hon. House. members opposite point out if they can where Mr. Gledson: That is not correct. any other section of the mining industry is mentioned. (Interjections.) Mr. :DEACON: It appears to me that this is a measure mainly to ratify the settlement ~lr. SPEAKER: Order! It appears to of the coal strike. In that settlement tem me that the hon. member who has caught the perature in mines was mentioned, as it is men Speaker's eye is doing the least speaking. I tioned in this Bill. It also provided that the nsk hon. members to give the hon. member for men shonlc1 work only a certain nurrfber of Cunningham, who has the floor, an opportunity hours. \Ye have that in the Bill, too. It to complete his speech. appears that we are passing legislation con I\Ir. DEACON: I thank hon. members for cerning mining only to bring it into line with their interest in my speech. The concluding the settlement of the coal strike. pages of this Bill are devoted to the Coa 1 The Secretary for Mines: Parliament has Production Regulation Act. I am not blaming already pa.ssed the conditions concerning coal the Minister for that. We all know that it is mining. quite useless making any amendments to the hours of any industry unless the workers Mr. :DEACON: Then why include them in affected are eompelled to obey the court. The this Bill if they were passed before~ coalminers should have obeyed the court. If they desired any alteration in their wages and The Secretary for ~lines: We are not 'interfering with the coalmining industry. conditions, it was their duty to approach thE' Industrial Court, not simply defy the court, Mr. :DEACON: That is what the Minister the Government, a.nd the law of the land. is doing here. However, they got their own way and now Parliament is asked to ratify one of the terms ~lines: am not. The Secretary for I of settlement. I am not opposing the Bill on JUr. DEACON: There is more mention of that ground, because, after all, the coal the coalmining industry than any other form miners won. They forced the employers to of mining. There are only a few lines about agree to their terms. That being so, there tempemtures in mines, but the biggest paTt is nothing left for this Parliament to do but of the Bill is taken up in dealing with coal ratify part of the terms of settlement. That mining. is what we are doing at the present time. I can quite understand why the hon. member ~Ir. Clark: You are wrong. for Ipswich c1oes not like any objection to be ~Ir. IlEACON: Has the hon. member read raised to the Bill. He is deeply concerned, the Bill? If he has he will have seen that the and he has my sympathy. 1830 Industrial Conciliation, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. ::\ir. RIORDAN (Bowen) (9.1 p.m.): The body who liked to come into the industry, and hon. member who has just resumed his seat they gave liberty to the employer to force is one who usually rises in thi~ House and asks the workers to work any num1Jcl' of hom·s they hon. members on the Government side if they were pTepaTed to accept. have read the B.ill under discussion, but on this occasion-to use a colloquialism-the The hon. member for Cunningham, who boot is on the other foot. It is apparent that knows more about rust in wheat than he the hon. member for Cunningham has never knows about dust in coalmines and metalli· read the Bill. fermis mines, is talking for the miners of Allora, but he does not know what he is Jir. Nimmo: Are you on the mining com talking about. mittee of the caucus~ l'lir. lUULL.ER (Fassifern) (9.5 p.m.): I :Ur. RIORDAN: I am not prepared to tell have no desire to take up thr time of the the hon. member that. He might use it House, but I wish to protest against the against me. · method of introducing a Bill at thi~ late stage The fact remains that the clause to which and expecting members of the Opposition to objection is being taken by hon. members be able to express an intelligent view upon opposite does not apply to coalminers at all. it. I express sympathy with you, Mr. Clause 2 that the hon. member for Cunning· Speaker. The Government placed this Bill ham has been talking about provides a special in our hands and we realise the seriousness exemption for coalminers. of the mining industry at the present time. The title of this Bill is ''a Bill to amend The hon. member for Hamilton said the The Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Premier had stated that the Government of Acts, 1932 to 1937, The Profiteering Prcv~n the day took upon itself to fix the m:.tximum tion Act of 1920, and The Coal ProductiOn range of hours that should be worked. 'rhe Regulation Acts, 1933 to 1935, in certain Governnwnt on this oc~asion are only seeking particulars.'' to establish the maximum number of hours to be worked under certain conditions in metalli A minute ago the hon. member for Bowen ferous mines, and that does not apply to coal suggested that there was no reference to the miners at all. The hon. member for Cunning coalmining industry in it. I have no inten ham, the Lt>ader of the Opposition, and the tion of deciding that there is or is not, but Leader of the United Australia Party have in all fairn0ss to members of the Opposi been trying to put this over as a little bit tion, how do the Government expect any of of cheap propaganda. They are always ready us on this side to read the Bill and listen to suggest that members of the Government to the debate at the same time? The Bill is have not •read a Bill, but on this occasion it of sufficient importance to wanant its intro is very apparent that they never even duction earlier in the session, otherwise the attempted to read the Bill, because if they session should be prolonged for another day had done so thev must have noticed that in order to give us an opportunity to form an intelligent opinion on it. (Government cl~use 2 contains a provision exempting coal· minerS". interjections.) I am objecting to-night to the method of introducing such an impor )fr. Russell interjected. tant Bill as this in the eleventh hour of the session. Mr. RIORDAN: I said that the hon. mem ber for Hamilton made a statement that the In the district represented by me and the Government took it upon them~elves to fix the hon. member for Ipswich this is a very maximum mnnbrr of hours that should be important question and if theTe is no refer· worked. Under this Bill they arc seeking to ence to controlling the coalmining industry in fix the maximum hours that shall be worked the Bill I say there should be. I have no under certain conditions in metalllferous wish to see the spectacle that we saw a few mines and rightly so, too. I go so far as to say weeks ago in connection with the coal s•trike that most of the hon. membeTs opposite c1o not and, perhaps, there is reason for Parliament know the conditions under which metalliferous to intervene on an occasion such as that. miners work, and if they did--I give them the benefit of the douht-I think thev would All I desire to do at this stage is to record agree that no miner working in a 'metalli· my protest against a principle, and neither I ferons minP should work for six hams a day nor any other member of the Opposition can under any set of circumstances or conditions. give an intelligent opinion on this Bill without time to study it. The procedure the Jir. Russell: I quite agree with that. Government have adopted is unfair and I hope that the Premier, or the Minister in charge }fr. RIORDA='f: Then why all the oppo of the Bill, >vill see that there is no repeti · sition to the Bill~ Hon. members opposite tion of it. Members of the Opposition are come here and on one occasion say that the askrd to accept their share of responsibility Government should not lav down th~ maximum for this Bill, which will pass through all number of hours and on ~nother occasion theY stages inside a couple of hours and thus mem· argue that the Government should not tak~ bers of Parliament are not given an oppor upon themselves to say that under ccTtain tunity of caiTying out their duty. conditions mctallifeTous miners should not woTk more than six hours a dny under certain lUr. NilU1UO (Oxley) (9.8 p.m.): I, too, conditions. On a previous O''Casion when hon. lodge my JJrotest against the late issue of this membeTs opposite were in power they took it Bill. The :\Iinister would have been well upon tl1emselves to give an "open go;' to any- advised to allow this matter to go to the Industrial Conciliation, &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill . 1831 .:oourt. A precedent is being created that ~Ir. CLARK (Fitzroy) (9.11 p.m.): I am will haYe very serious effects as far as Queens surprised that members of the Opposition land is concerned. If the workers at the should have spoken in the manner in which abattoirs put up a big enough fight, will the they have to-night. After listening to what Government come forward and ask us to they have had to say I am convinced that decide what hours they shall work~ There is they haYe no idea at all of the mining indus no need to bring a Bill before the House to try of Queensland. They certainly have no :fix hours. We are involved in the great idea as to the conditions under >Yhich the expense of an Industrial Court and that miners employed in metalliferous mining are eourt is more competent to decide the condi >Yorking. In certain parts of a mine there tions to be worked in metalliferous mining is enough air coming in and going out to than this House. supply all the needs of the workers, but unfortunately, in some of the big mines of I thought we should hear all about the the State, it is difficult for the management matter from the hon. member for Bowen, that to force an air current into the stopes in he would explain the contents of the Bill. which it is required. I say that one of the He has told ns nothing, but referred to the best things that could happen to the mining previous Government's allowing these workers industry of Queensland is the passing of this to be worked all hours that it was possible Bill. to work them. When the Moore Government came into power they followed a Labom Then, too, we have the question of indus Government and found that there ,.·ere verv trial diseases in the mining industry to few miners in Queensland employed in consider. In my opinion the majority of metalliferous mining. The action of the past industrial diseases in mines are not caused by Government had closed down the industry. dust but by the temperatures in which the Goldmining was at a standstill, arid men are working. I represent an electorate naturally action such as was taken had to in >Yhich I suppose one of the biggest mines be taken in order to allow the metalliferous in Queensland, ::VIount lVIorgan, is opcratin,g. mines to work. The award was suspended If hon. members opposite care to visit that to enable the industry to get a footing, and mine they will have a better idea of the the result is that to-day metalliferous mining mining industry of the State. I remember a in Queensland is booming somewhat. The time in the history of the old Mount Morgan l\Tinister takes all the credit for that. company when not one of the men who suffered from miners' phthisis >Yorked under A GoYernment Member: He is entitled ground. They contracted the disease when to. wOTking 'round about the mine. T1lat may Mr. :NHilliO: It is action such as this give the House some idea of what the men that "·ill put the industry back again, because underground have to put up with. investors will not know who is boss of the show: whether the Industrial Court is to be I am pleased to be able to say, however, allowed to decide matters or whether a 'that the conditions of the workers of Mount Minister can bring down a Bill reducing the Morgan are 100 per cent. better under the hours to four. The present Bill is, reducing present company than they were when the the homs to six. Parliament is setting an mine was being operated under the old organi· -examplP by this Bill. sation. There hns not been much time to studv the I might now give hm1. members opposite contents of the Bill, but we know that the some idea of »·hat this Bill seeks to do. The coalmining industry is exempt only so far as Minister has explained the provisions relating certain temperatures are concerned. If the to temperatures. It is possible for the coalmines generate heat that is greater than manage_ment of a mining company, by using the tPmperature specified in this Bill then the mechamcal ventilation, to inject into the mine Act definitely a pp lies to that section. a sufficient qum1tity of air, but this air does Another point that I should like to raise is not always reach the working stopes. This how many industries are going to be brought can be done quite easily by the use of a under these provisions. Is the Bill to apply fan or air compressor. Air injected into a only to metalliferous miners or are all under stope by mechanical means has a detri ground workers to be affected by it~ The mental effect on the health of the miner. Bill says- There is nothing like the pure air that comes '' The working time of employees in from the smface. I am of the opinion that underground occupations, or occupations in this Bill will be of great benefit, not only which the conditions as to temperature, ven to the mining industry in general but to the tilation, lighting, and limitation of miners »·ho work in the metalliferous mines approaches are similar to those operating of the State. I am quite pleased to see that in underground occupations.'' such a Bill is brought in by the Minister, and I am hopeful that if he retains his present It really provides that men who are not office during the next two years he will have working underground may also come under the opportunity of making the conditions its provision. better than they are to-day. I am certain At any rate, I record my protest at the that he is woTldng on the right lines. I hope bringing down of a Bill of such a contentious that in the next three years there will be 11ature as this at the eleventh hour. further amendments to the Acts goven1ing 1832 Industrial Conciliation, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. metalliferous and coalmining, because both ferred the nec·essary power to enable rules to could be improved. be drafted concerning Yentilation and tem peratures. Hon. members opposite did not Government llfembers: Hear, hear! object to those powers. The parties concernerl Mr. CLARK: I am quite certain that received notice about the rules and regula hon. members of the Opposition do not know tions, and they were tabled in this House what they are talking about when they speak before they became law. To-day, we are in the manner in which they have spoken asking for the re-enactment of those proYi to-night. sions of the 1923 Act. The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. Before this clause dealing with trmpam T. A. Foley, Normanby) (9.16 p.m.), in reply: tures and Yentilation was drafted, inYestiga I am astounded at the hypocrisy that hon. tions were made by officers of my department who were competent to give allYicc as to members opposite have shown during this dis whether we were proceeding on the rigi1t cussion. lines. The provision in the Bill safeguards Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. the men in seeing that they work under gentlenl'an to withdraw that term. fa\·ourable conditions. The SECRETARY FOR ::IIINES: I with Hon. members opposite are insincere in draw the expression. I consider that their suggesting that we are now usurping the func sincerity in the discussion is to be questioned. tions of the Industrial Court. In 1929 they During the whole of this week Parliament has deprived the Industrial Court of power to endeavoured to get through its measures and deal with this matter. to finish up. They are aware of that, anrl, Hon. members opposite complained also that as a matter of fact, to-day it could he seen it is an objectionable practice to amend three that they were desirous of getting throuo·h Acts with one Bill, but the subjects are allie(t the business. The opportunitv was there ~o with each other. In 1930, the JI.Ioore Govern string out the discussion on ~·arious matters ment amended the Income Tax Act, the Suc nnd to go further into the week if they so cession and Probates Duties Act, and the Race desired. courses Act in one Bill. Thev also amended the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration . The Premier: They are only sham fight A.ct, the PTofiteeTing Prevention Art, and the Jng. Criminal Code in one Bill. Also, in the The SECRETARY FOR 3IINES: It is Primary Producers' Organisation and ~iarket only a matter of sham fighting. No explana ing Act and other Acts Amendment Bill they tion that one can giYe will be accepted. I amended the Primary Producers' Organisa gave a definite explanation as to the history tion ::tnd Marketing A0ts, the J;'ruit ~farketing of the actions of Parliament in dealing with Organisation Act, the Wheat Pool Act, antl this question since befoTe 1016. radial:uent the DiSC' Question-That the Bill be now read a Clause 10-R.epeal of and new section 84; second time (Mr. Foley's motion)-put; and Amendment of Profiteering Prevention Act-- the House divided- Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (9.38 AYEs, 35. p.m.): This clause provides for a Commis Mr. Brown Mr. King sioner of Prices and my opinion is that he Bulcock Larcombe has enough to do now. I should. like to know Clark Mann Conroy Marriott the idea behind it-whether there is another Copley McLean friend at court who wants an easy job, or why Dash Mull an the Commissioner cannot go on as he is. Duggan Pease " Dunstan Power A Government Member: Read the Bill. Farrell Riordan Foley Slessar Mr. YEATES: Is it a matt(\r of a pro Gair Smith motion for him~ " Gledson Taylor Hanlon Williams, H. Hanson Williams, T. L. The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. " Hayes T. A. Foley, Normanby) (9.39 p.m.): I am Hi! ton Tellers: not in a position to give the hon .. member any Hlslop Healy Jesson Walsh information other than to say that we are Keogh seeking the necessary power to enable anyone NOES, 15. other than a member of the Industrial Court to be appointed Commissioner of Prices, if Mr. Daniel Mr. Nimmo Dart Plunkett the Government desires to make that appoint Deacon Russell ment. Edwards Yeates Maher Clause 10, as read, agreed to. Massey Tellers: Moo re Brand Muller Macdonald Clause 11-Amendments of The Coal Pro Nicklin duction Regulation Acts, 1933 to 1935-- R.esolved in the affirmative. Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) (9.40 p.m.): This COMMITTEE. is one of the most absurd clauses that we could possibly put in a Bill. It is found to (Mr. Hanson, Buranda, in the chair.) be impossible to get satisfaction in the work Clause 1-Short title-as read, agreed to. ing to the Act as it is and the conditions have been made worse by this Bill. The Commis Clause 2-Amendment of section 10 (1); sioner of Prices is at present the chairman of Directions to be observed by the court- the Central Coal Board. The constitution of the board is now to be the same except that Question-That clause 2, as read, stand the member of the Industrial Court appointed part of the Bill-put; and the Committee as member of the Central Coal Board shall divided- also be the chairman of the Central Coal Board. AYES, 35. Then we come on to the question of the Mr. Brown Mr. King Bulcock Larcombe fixation of prices. At the bottom of page 7 Cl ark Mann the Bill says- Conroy " Marriott Copley McLean '' Provided that any fixation of price Dash Mull an hereinbefore set forth shall be subject to Duggan Pease appeal by any coal owner or purchaser in Dunstan Riordan Farrell Slessar the district concerned to the chairman of Foley Smith the Central Coal Board (being the member Gair Taylor of the Indust•rial Court appointed member Gledson " Walsh Hanlon Wellington and chairman of the Central Coal Board Hayes " Williams, T. L. pursuant to subsection two of section Healy " seven of this Act, or, in the event of the Hi! ton Tellers: Hislop Power absence or illness of such chairman, the Jesson W!lliams, H. person duly appointed to act as deputy Keogh " chairman) and his determination shall be NOES, 14. final and conclusive and without appeal to Mr. Brand Mr. Nicklin any tribunal whatsoever.'' Deacon Plunkett First of all he sits as chairman of the Edwards Russell Macdonald Yeates Coal Board on which there are two owners' Maher representatives, one representative of the Massey Tellers: Government, and one employees' representa Moo re Daniel Nimmo tive. Then he is not allowed to fix the price Muller that the consumer is to pay for the coal, but PAIRS. he is allowed to fix the price below which AYE. No. coal is not to be sold, which is a very different Mr. Hynes Mr. Dart thing. R.esolved in the affirmative. I think hon. members will remember that the Lord Mayor of Brisbane protested very Clauses 3 to 9, both inclusive, as read, strongly against the principle embodied in agreed to. this clause, The amount of money that the 1938-3 N 1834 Industrial Conciliation, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. Brisbane City Council had to pay for the Mr. MOO RE: He said it in open council, coal that it used at its power house and other and there was also a report of the whole instrumentalities conducted by it was too proceeding in the paper. This position is high in the opinion of the Lord Mayor and entirely wrong. Here we have a Coal Board he appealed to the Commissioner of Prices. on which the ownm:s are in the majority. The Commissioner of Prices did not fix the First of all, th~"& is one member represent price that the Lord Mayor had to pay; he ing the Government coal mines. Although, in fixed the price below which it should not fact, he does not represent the Government be sold, and the Lord Mayor still had to coal mines, because they wre exempt from the pay 9d. a ton mcvre than the price that the Act. Then there are two owners' representa Commissioner of Prices had fixed. tives, and one employees' representative. Then there is the chairman of the board, The original Act says that a district cod who is not able to fix the price at which the scheme may provide-- coal shall be sold. He can fix the minimum "For the determination, at such times P'rice below which it shall not be sold. That and for such periods as may be decided in has nothing to do with the maximum price; accordance with the provisions of the dis it is totally different from any other price· trict coal scheme, of the price below which fixing legislation that we have. In all other any class, grade, size, or description of matters the Commissioner of Prices fixes a coal produced in the district may not be maximum price. sold o'r supplied by owners of coal mines in the district. ' ' Mr. Duggan: What is wrong with fixing a minimum price' That does not give any remedy to the con· sumer who wants to get a particular class Mr. MOO RE: If he fixes a maximum, too, of coal and who feels that he is unjustly it is all right. But this does not. It allows treated. He has to appeal to the chairman the coal board, on which there is a majority of the board who fixed the price in the first of owners, to fix a minimum price. That is place in his capacity as a member of the not price fixing. board. He has to appeal from Caesar to ])fr. P.ower: The Commissioner of Prices Caesar. The consumer does not apply to an still has the power to do that. independent commissioner outside of the Coal Board; he has to apply to the man who has Mr. MOO RE: The hon. member should be a}ready been instrumental in fixing the price away counting votes at Baroona and not that has to be paid. minding about this. He seems to have been otherwise occupied for the last day or two. Mr. Power: He fixes the minimum price. If he had been here he might have been Mr. MOO RE: That is just the trouble. able to hear us. The whole position is that I am objecting because the Lord Mayor of you l>ave-- Brisbane strongly objected to the principle Mr, Keogll interjected. that is contained in this Bill. He· represents the dty of Greater Brisbane, and he objected Mr. MOO RE: The hon. member ne,eds an because he was unable to get the class of interpreter. I cannot understand him. We coal that was necessary and in the best want a properly constituted board with a interests of the community. He objected reasonable representation of consumers. As also to the price he had to pay. He said it is, they have to take whatever coal is that it was too high, and he appealed to the sent to them, irrespective of whether it suits the needs of their industry or not. We have Commissioner of Prices. The Commissioner continually heard directors of the gas com of P'rices was not able to fix the price he panies complaining that they are unable to had t'() pay; he was able only to fix the get the kind of coal that suits them. The price below which it could not be sold, which price of gas is increased because of the is a totally different matter. unsuitability of the coal that they are corn· If we are going to have a board of this pelled to take. Then again, the administra· sort, and if the price is going to be fixed, tive head of the Brisbane City Council's surely the Commissioner of Prices ouaht to electricity undertaking, representing in that be able to fix the price at which th~ coal respect a large number of the people of Queensland, often has to complain about the should be sold as well as the price below price and the quality of the coal that he has which it should not be sold f to accept. Mr. Gledson: So he can, amd so he does. On this board the owners are in the Mr. MOO RE: He was not able to do it. majority. Surely, that being so, there should The Lord Mayor of Brisbane, despite the be an appeal to someone other than the chairman of the board in regard to prices, fact that he appealed to the Commissioner of and surely the price should be fixed at which Prices, said he still had to pay 9d. a ton the commodity is to be sold-not a minimum more fo,r the coal than the Commissioner of price below which it shall not be sold, which Prices said was reasonable. is a totally different thing. Mr. Gledson: He did not. I thought when we got this Bill that it Mr. MOO RE: He did. It is no use the would remedy the unsatisfactory position that hon. member's contradicting. I say emphati has existed for a period of years, but I cally that he did. find that it only perpetuates and accentuates it. The person responsible for fixing the price Mr. Power: Where did he say that? ought to be a man with some experience in Industrial Conciliation, &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1835 the fixation of prices, but the chairman of and at least he should have an opportunity of the board need not be the Commissioner of getting justice. The whole principle is wrong Prices. The only qualification is that he has and unjust, and should be remedied. to be a member of the Industrial Court. Surely that is wrong in principle, and should Mr. POWEl~ (Baroona) (9.52 p.m.): The not be continued. For industrial efficiency hon. nl'embeT for Aubigny said that the Bris you must have the right quality of coal for bane City Council had complained about the the particular industry, whether it is a gas class of coal supplied to it, but there is works, an electricity undertaking or an nothing wTong in fixing the minimum price of abattoir. An industry should be allowed to coal at any time. Some time ago a concern choose the coal it wants. lmom1 as the Woodend colliery offeTed coal to the Brisbane City Council at a price below As it stands, an industry has to take what that quoted by other collieries, and upon the coal board gives it, and its. appeal is investigation it was discoveTed that it was a to the chairman of the coal board who was two-man show and that these men worked the a party to fixing the quota of doal to be round of the clock. Thus they weTe able to taken from a particular mine by that industry. produce the coal at a lesser cost than was If the price is unsatisfactory again the incurred in other collieries that obseTved appeal is to the chairman of th~ coal board, proper industrial conditions. I should be who was a party to fixing the price in the pleased to see the Government go further and first place. That gentleman, instead of fixing fix the minimum selling price of quite a the price at which the coal is to be sup number of commodities, particularlY' in the plied, fixes a price below which it cannot be supplied. baking trade. JUr. Malter: From Caesar to Caesar! 'ilfr. DEACON (Cunningham) (9.53 p.m.): If it is right to fix a price below which coal lUr. lUOORE: That is the ridiculous shall not be sold, why not extend the principle position that exists under that clause. If we to other commodities~ are going to have an amendment of the con stitution of the coal board, the consumers The Secretary for Public Lands: That should be represented so that they can get cannot be done undeT this Bill. the cla~s of coal they want. The price should Jir. })EA CON: Of course not, but why be i!ec1ded by an independent Commissioner select coal~ It was only a moment ago that of Prices. hon. members opposite denied that this Bill He can only fix a price below which coal dealt with the coalmining industq. cannot be sold. Of course, that puts the The Secretary for Health and Ho~e coalowners on the pig's back but the con Affairs: Why select wheat as a commod1ty sun~er is placed in an absu;d position in to be sold at a minimum price~ havmg to pay a price out 0f all proportion to the Yalue of the coal that he is compelled l'lir. DEACON: Wheat can be bought to take. undeT that price. If a man has to take inferior coal he The Secretary for Health and Home should, be allowed to pa.y a lower price for it Affairs: No, we have just passed a Bill than fo't· first-class coal, but if he is at liberty to fix the minimum price of wheat. to select the coal suitable for his industry he Jir. DEACON: The hon. gentleman can can afford to pay a better price. At the go anywhere else and buy it. He can go to present time he is between the devil and the Sydney and buy a whole caTgo if he likes. deep sea. He may appeal to a board but it is not likely to listen to him, becau~e most The Secretary for Health and Home of the members are directly interested in Affairs: No. compelling', him' to take a class of coal that he does not want, and if he appeals from its )Ir. DEACON: Yes; and he can bring it decision he must appeal to the chairman of heTe. People do that now. that board who has been instrumental in The Secretary for Health and Home fixing a price below which the coal shall not Affairs: No. be sold. I\Ir. DEACON: He ca:n. There are people This principle is not adopted in respect to >Yho do it. There is no use in the hon. gentle other commodities in this State. The Com man's denying that because Brisbane millers missioner of Prices does not fix prices in do it. If local »·heat is offered at a price respect of other commoditi'es below which they that the milleTs consider too high they buy shall not be sold. He fixes the maximum price supplies in the South. They are quite free to above which it cannot be sold. do so. The Minister knows that. In this case the difficulty and the absurdity The Secretary for Health and Home is accentuated because of the constitution of Affairs:: What about the Bill you supported the board that fixes the price in the firot this afternoon~ place. Would hon. members opposite approve of the constitution of a board consisting of Jir. DEACON: Why should a mm1mum a majority of dairy producers to fix the price price apply to the coal industry only~ Goal below which butter shall not be sold~ Of can be sold at any price higher than the course they would not. In the coalmining minimum that can be obtained, but not for industq the practice of price fixation is less. In other industries the Commissioner of reversed. The consumer should be considered, Prices fixes the maximum price at which 1836 Industrial Conciliation, &c., [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill. goods can be sold. If the Commissioner fixes The Commissioner of Prices under the Pro the price of flour, butter, moat, or any other fiieering Prevention Act fixes a maximum commodity, the seller cannot charge more than price if he so desires. There is no alteration. the price fixed. When \Ye come to coal, the Those powers will still be exercised by the seller cannot sell below a certain price, and chairman of the board. 'l'hey still exist. The he can get as much more as he can. chairman of the Central Coal Board does not fix a minimun1 price. He hears evidence and The Secretary for Health and Home lie either upholds or dismisses the appeal. If Affairs: Not at all. any coal board got out of hand in any lUr. DEACON: That is the position under district and was fixing an exorbitant minimum this clause. Why did the Lord Mayor say so~ price below which coal could not be sold, then Is the hon. gentleman going to call the Lord the Commissioner of Prices, as the representa Mayor a liar~ Is he goin,g to insinuate that tive of the people under the Profiteering Pre he was not telling the truth~ 'rhe facts are vention Act, can fix a maximum price and the clear and hon. members opposite cannot deny matter is settled. them. The principle enacted in this clause is wrong. If the rule is a good one, it should 1\'Ir. DEACON (Cunningham) (10.1 p.m.): be applied all round. Sellers of any article The Minister says he fixes a maximum or could then charge as much above the fixed minimum price under which coal cannot be price as they could get. sold. The Minister set out that the Commis sioner of Prices fixes the minimum price below The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. which coal cannot be sold. T. A. Foley, Normanby) (9.57 p.m.): Hon. members opposite do not grasp the actual Tlte Secretary for Health and Home position. This is an amendment of the Coal Affairs: He did not say anything of the Production Regulation Act. It does not in kind. any way depart from the principle of the Act IUr. DEACON: He did. except that the chairman of the Central Coal Board who, after the passing of this measure, The SecretaJ.·y for Mines: Under section will be a member of the Industrial Court, 21, which I read out, the district board fixes will have the powers of the Commissioner of the minimum price. The Central Coal Board Prices. He can fix the maximum price of hears the appeals. coal if on the hearing of evidence be thinks it is warranted. Mr. DEACON: Why did the Minister say so in making his explanation W Why should What actually takes place~ Section 21 of there be a minimum and a maximum price the Coal Production Regulation Act states- for coal. The Minister mentioned both maxi mum and minimum. '' Every such District Coal Scheme may provide for all or any of the following matters, that is to say:- ~Ir. GLEDSON (Ipswich) (10.3 p.m.): I do no~ know whether the hon. member for Cunningham and other members of the Oppo "(b) Por the determination at such sition are so dense that they cannot under times and for such periods a~ may be stand the Minister's statement, which was decided in accordance with the provisions perfectly clear. This scheme was brought of the District Coal Scheme, of the price into operation by the Government for the belo": 1~hich any class, grade, size, or purpose of preventing the cutting of prices descnpt10n of coal produced in the and the ruin of the coal industry in Queens district may not be sold or supplied by land. The Leader of the Opposition knows owners o~ coalmines in the district, and that in his own district the coalminers and for securmg that the actual consideration the whole of the people were virtually starv obtained by the sale or supply of the ing, but the position of the industry has been several classes of coal shall not be less totally altered and he should t.hank the in value than the price so determined: '' Government for what they have done for his constituents. Instead of that, we have the Then it goes on to say- Deputy Leader of the Opposition making the '' Provided that any fixation of price here deliberate statement that there was no provi inbefore set forth shall be subject to appeal sion under this Bill or under the principal by any coal owner or purchaser in the Act for the fixation of prices or for any district concerned to the Commissioner of customer to get relief from the price-that Prices (who is chairman of the Central there was a minimum price fixed below which Coal Board)," the coal could not be sold and no-one had any authority to alter that. That is a mis No alteration whatsoever is made in the statement of the facts, as you know, Mr. clause under consideration. After hearing Hanson. The Leader of the Opposition knows evidence the chairman of the Central Coal that because he has numbers of mines in his Board, together with all other members of own district. The Deputy Leader of the the board, will still determine the minimum Opposition made that statement knowing it price and in the event of a coal consumer's was not correct, and he repeated it over and disagreeing with that price he can appeal, over again and that may mislead the people. as he did before, to the chairman of the board, who will have all the powers of the The Minister has explained to the Com Commissioner of Prices. If the Commissioner mittee that this scheme was brought into is satisfied that the price fixed is exorbitant operation at a time when the coalmining he will review it. industry was at a very low ebb owing to the Industrial Conciliation, &c., [16 NovEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 1837 action of the Moore-Morgan Government in that this clause makes is that the chairman cutting the price of coal and practically starv of the Central Coal Board shall be a member ing the men engaged in the industry. 'l'he of the J ndustrial Court. Leader of the Opposition knows that. As for the last increase in the price of Mr. Muller interjected. coal we know the Industrial Court restored the 'reduction in ''ages made during the time Mr. GLEDSON: The hon. member for Fassifern knows that and he knows the differ of the Moore Government. ence in conditions that prevails to-day. He Mr. Yeates interjected. knows they are different from the conditions of the time when the Moore-Morgan regime Mr. GLEDSON: The hon. member for got loose with an axe in the coalmining East Toowoomba apparently supported that industry. 'l'hey ought to be ashamed to lift Government all along the line, and is now their heads in this Chamber after imposing sittino· as a member of this Com"mittee sup those conditions on the workers in Queens porti;g the same party, which in th!s. Chamber land. They ought to be ashamed to stand up states that the Government are giVmg these here and talk about industry after bringing people something they have no right to get. industry to the condition in which Labour The clause gives the Commissioner of ~rices found it in 1932. If I had done what hon. power to fix the price of coal. That 1s the members opposite have done I would go and same power as the r~ght to fix the pric~ of hide myself in a hollow log. meat. Under this Act and under the prevwus Yet hvn. members opposite say heTie that Act he has done so. The last time a district the Government compel the gas company or coal board drew up the price it wanted and the council to take coal that is not suitable submitted it to the chairman of the board he and at a price• fixed by the colliery owners, reviewed it and reduced it to what he thought and there is no appeal against that. They was a fair thing. He did not give them what know that is totally wrong. The Coal Pro they asked. That shows definitely that the duction Regulation Act provided for this Commissioner of Prices has power to reduce scheme, and that on district boards there the price of coal below the amount fixed by should be representatives of the colliery any district coal scheme. That is clear, and owners, the employees, and Government. no specious argument by the DeJ?u~y I;eader Thece was no change in the supply of coal of the Opposition that the coalmmmg mdus to the consumer after the board began opera try is being given something tha~ no other tions. For years the consumers have been industry has got cannot be sustamed. The receiving their coal from the same companies. coalmining industry is getting nothing more There was no change of suppliers after the than other industries have got. schem·e came into operation. The. board did The Commissioner of Prices, or the chair not change the suppliers. man of the board, as the case may be, is independent of anyone. He is the repre.sen Jllr. Muller: They did, and you know it. tative of the consumer and he has the nght Mr. GLEDSON: They did not change the to reduce the price :fixed by any district suppliers. The same suppliers continued long scheme, and to fix the price above which it after the scheme eame into operation. cannot be sold. Every consumer of coal has a right to appeal to the Commissioner of What are the conditions under the clause Prices in connection with that matter. we are dealing with~ The amendment pro vides for the deletion of proviso (b), wh-ich Mr. ltiULLER (Fassifern) (10.11 p.m.): provided that after the district coal board I cannot let the statement made by the hon. had fixed and determined the quotes and prices member for Ipswich go without challenge. they had to be submitted to the approval of The hon. member knows that the statement the Central Coal Board. Is there anyone to he has made is untrue. disagree to that principle~ A consumer who disagreed with the price could appe9J to the The CHAIRlUAN: I ask the hon. member chairman of the Central Coal Board. He was to withdraw that statement. independent of the colliery proprietors and Mr. MULLER: I withdraw that state employees, and had nothing to ao with the men, but nevertheles I am not prepared to industry. In the first instance, it was the accept the statement made by the hon. mem Commissioner of Prices who had to determine ber for Ipswich, because my experience con· the price at which coal could be sold. He vinces me that if he is not making an untruth could reduce the price of coal, and did so on ful statement, then he is not aware of what several occasions. is going on. I\Ir. Maher: Why should the Commis I am speaking now as a consumer. I know sioner of Prices be the chairman of the Cen for a positive fact that we have not been able tral Coal Board~ to get supplies of coal that we require. We Mr. GLEDSON: If the hon. gentleman have been told to buy our supplies from reads the Bill he will see that the Commis sources other than those from which we desire sioner of Prices is no longer chairman of the to get it. Our position is exactly similar to Central Coal Board. The amendment provides that of any other consumer. that the chairman of the Central Coal Board In a great many cases the coal that has shall be a m:ember of the Industrial Court, been allotted to us has not been suitable for and gives him power to determine the maxi our purpose, and I will now tell the Com mum price for coal. 'rhe only amendment mittee something more after what the hon. 1838 Industrial Conciliation, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Stabilisation Scheme. member for Ipswich has said. After we had Question-That clause 11, as read, stand complained about the coal we have been told part of the Bill-put; and the Committee that the Government required that class of divided- coal for their own purposes. AYES, 34. We are not complaining about the price. I Mr. Brown Mr. Larcombe should be the last man in the world to say Bulcock M ann that the miners should produce coal for noth Clark Marriott ing. I am prepared to pay, and I think every Conroy M cLean Copley Mull an other consumer is prepared to pay a reason Dash Pease able price for coal, but we must have the class Duggan Power of coal that suits our own requirements. We Dunstan Riordan Farrell Smith have been compelled to put into an automatic Foley Tayfor stoker coal that is not at all suitable. Part Gair Walsh of the coal falls through the grid and the Gledson Wellington Hanlon .Williams, H. loss is terrific. Surely we are entitled to get Ha yes Williams, T. the coal that we have been in the habit of Hi! ton using and for which we have had installed Jesson Tellers: Keogh Healy special machinery~ King Slessar I am in favour of stabilisation and of NOES, 13. giving the coal ownel' and the coal miner a Mr. Daniel Mr. Nimmo fair deal, but I am not in favour of inter Deacon Plunkett fering with business in this way so that Edwards Russell Macdonald industry is ruined. Maher Tellers: Moo re Massey I have a very high regard for the coal Muller Yeates mining industry in and around Ipswich, as Nicklin referred to by the hon. member for Ipswich, PAIR. but I can see that this interference by the AYE. No. Government will eventually have the effect of killing the industry. It is wrong for any Mr. Hynes Mr. Dart body to say that the industry is in a much Resolved in the affirmative. better position to-day than it was when the Moore Government were in power. It is not. Bill reported, without amendment. I can see that the industry is wanin;g every day and I should like to see an effort made THIRD READING. to revhe it. The coalmining industry has Bill, on motion of Mr. Foley, read a third gone to pieces. Many consumers have been forced off coal and onto wood, electrkity, or time. something else. Everyone wants to be fair and everyone is prepared to pay a fair price, but ~we object to interference along the lines LOCAL AUTHORITIES' HOSPITAL that have been followed in the past. PRECEPTS. Anybody who says the consumer has been RETURN TO ORDER. allowed to buy the class of coal that suited the The following paper was laid on the requirements does not know anything about table:- the position. Anyone who has had experience Return to an Order made by the House on and who knows what has gone on cannot 11 August last, on the motion of Mr. support such a statement. Muller, showing the amount of precepts under the Hospitals Acts for each local ltir. DEACON (Cunningham) (10.15 authority in 1937-38, and the total p.m.) : If the Minister had given the same amount of all such precepts. explanation that the hon. member for Ipswich has given we could have accepted it. The hon. member for Ipswich has stated that the WHEAT STABILISATION SCHEME. Commissioner of Prices has power to fix the price of coal beyond "hich it cannot be sold. The PRE~HER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, The Minister has denied that. Mackay) ( 10.24 p.m.), by leave: I wish to make a statement. Earlier in the evening I Tl1e Secretary for Mines: I said that the referred to a conference that was sitting in district coal schemes meant the fixing of a Canberra. in rega•rd to the proposed wheat minimum price. agreement. Since then I have been in touch lUr. DEACON: When I asked why that ~with the Treasurer, our representative at was done and pointed out that it was not that conference, and I am able to announce that a unanimous decision was arrived at allowed in any other industry, the Minister betvveen all the Governments. Briefly stated, denied that it was so. The hon. member for it provides that the excise duty will amount Ipswich cleared that matter up and admitted to £3,866,000. From this fund £500,000 will it was so. We were entitled to have that be deducted for expenditure in States information from the Minister. \life asked affected by the drought. During the perio_d why the Lord Mayor of Brisbane could not the Act remains on the statute-book thrs buy coal under a certain price, and the £500,000 will te an annual amount, to be Minister gave the wrong explanation. deducted from the excise, so that next year, Valedictory. [16 NovEMBER.] Valedictory. 1839 or the years follo-wing, States similarly be done. Strict order in debate in my view affected by drought will have the advantage is to the advantage of the House as a whole of such relief. and to individual members of the House. It is only by that means that members can The net yield to Queensland, based on develop that relevancy in speeches that makes present world prices, will be 2s. 9d. a bushel them valuable. You and your colleague, Mr. plus 6d. a bushel, with the additions for Hanson, have carried out your duties quality that now exist. That means a net admirably. realised price of 3s. 3d., based as I have said, on existing world prices. That figure is I also desire t-o thank the members of subject to scrutiny by the committee pro the '' Hansard'' staff who have, perhaps, vided for in the Bill. the hardest job of all. I often think that So far as can be ascertained at the moment their task is somewhat in the nature of a that is how the :figures will work out. It i~ superhuman one. They have to report a good thing that an agreement has been speeches and make them coherent and read arrived at and I hope the stabilisation will able, and sometimes to the listener on the be the success it deserves to be. floor of the House they are neither. So I thank them for their unremitting care, their Honourable Membm·s: Hear, hear! ingenuity, and their general accuracy. I also thank the Press for their care of SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT. the reports of the debate. The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, I also thank the Clerk of Parliament and Mackay) : I move- his assistants, the messengers, the staff of the refreshment rooms and the Government '' That the House, at its rising, do adjourn till Tuesday, 20 December, 1938.'' Printing Office, and all others whose labours go to make the work of Parliament the Motion agreed to. success that it is. We are living in an interesting and, to some extent, a dangerous age; an age in VALEDICTORY. which important changes are taking place, The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, not -only in the forms of government, but in Mackay) (10.27 p.m.): I move- economics and social outlook. It is very necessary that men should stand fast by sound '' That the House do now adjourn.'' principles based on equity and justice, and I: wish to take this opportunity of thanking keep ,their minds alert and open to new ideas, all officers of the House for the help they all of which tends towards the advancement have given hon. members generally during the of mankind. session. World's peace has been endangered to The session has been an important one. some extent during the year, and, unfor Certain Bills have been passed having for tunately, is not firmly established t-o-day. It their object the improvement of the economy is extraordinary that while the people of all of the people of Queensland. Bills containing countries individually desire to live in peace far-reaching principles have been passed and and amity with their neighbours, and while it is to be hoped that their administration every thinker must agree that war can benefit will meet with the success they so richly neither the victor nor the vanquished, yet deserve. Their basis and their construction conditions continue that threaten not only are on sound lines and should help the people world peace, but even the painstaking work of this country over many of its difficulties. of the centuries in building up the form of civilisation that we enj'oy to-day. I also thank ·hon. members for the care and unremitting attention they have given to Let us hope, Mr. Speaker, that in the the business of the House. I thank the Leader coming year world peace and human pro of the Opposition for the help he has given gress will become :firmly entrenched and that me, as Leader of the House, in carrying on people no longer will think of dealing with the business of the House. The Leader of the international questions on the basis of force. Opposition helps the Government in that Force by itself never achieved anything. respect considerably inasmuch as such assist ]'orce begets force; what is won by force ance facilitates debate. I have had experi to-day can be retaken by superior force ence as Leader of the Opposition and I know to-monow. Only those things live that are just how hard a job it is. It is· one of the embedded in our national cha.racter, sanc hardest jobs in Parliament that one can under tioned by experience and reason, and accepted take, because all the legislation and all the as being best by common consent of the business that is dealt with must come under people. his review. Honourable Members: Hear, hear! I also desire to thank you, Mr. Speaker, The PREMiER: Those are the things we and the Chairman of Committees, for your should seek, and it is in that. direction that wise control of debate during the session. progress will be made. Order in debate is essential in a deliberative assembly. It enables hon. members to give I take this opportunity-which I may not expression to their views on important legis have later on-of wishing all hon. members lation. Slackness would not enable that to the compliments of the season, and wishing 1840 Valedictory. [ASSEMBLY.] Valedictory. to the people of the State a bright and I take this opportunity of wishing every prosperous New Year. hon. member a very Merry Christmas and a very bright and prosperous' New Year. Honourable ltiembers: Hear, hear! Despite our differences of opinion I entertain feelings of good will to all hon. m'embers of 3Ir. MAilER (West Moreton) (10.35 this House personally and individually, and I p.m.): I am grateful to the Premier for his hope the new year will be prosperous, and reference to the work that I have done. I also that we shall be able to reassemble without express my appreciation to him, because when any absentees and meet once again fresh for I have had occasion to meet him on matters the fray. that I thought would be helpful in facilitating debate he has always met me in a generous Mr. RUSSELL (Hamilton) (10.39 p.m.): spirit. I endorse. the remarks expressedl by the It has been a very stTenuous sessiion, and I Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, have felt the strain somewhat latterly, because particularly in regard to yourself and the of the late night sittings. I really think it Chairman of CDmmittees. Both of you in the is time that thought was given to so arrang past have not enjoyed the best of health, and ing sessional matters better than they are at I trust that the spell from these arduous duties present. There is no need for the strenuous will restore you to your usual good health night sittings, and to abolish these would and strength. enable us to assimilate legisla,tion properly and to give it the study that is desirable. I thank the officials of the House for their uni.form courtesy, and also the '' Hansard'' 'rhere is nothing like the light of day to help one to an understanding of public business. staff, in fact, the whole of the staff engaged in Parliament House. It has been a very The Opposition is here to do that job, but strenuous session. Certainly it has been an the. Bills come so rapidly that we cannot give important one in that some very interesti'ng them the study that is necessary in the public measures have gone through. I trust that interest. However, I propose to have a talk they will make for the welfare of the com with the Premier on that matter in the New munity. Year. I ·want to say with regard to our debates The Premier: We can make our New that so far as I am concerned I hold neither Year's resolutions together. resentment nor malice against any hon. mem· Mr. MAHER: I express appreciation of ber, and I hope that those feelings are the splendid support that has been accorde Thirty-two Bills have been passed through BILLS ASSENTED TO AT CLOSE OF all their stages. SESSION. Gazettes Extraordinary were issued notify The number of speeches in the House and ing the assent of His Excellency the Governor in the Committee is about 1,040, exclusive to the following Bills:- of Ministers' replies in Committee, of which we have no record, (Thursday, 24 November, 1938)- State Transport Bill; and I think a ·record has been established Stoek Routes Improvement and Animal and since I have been in the Queensland Parlia Vegetable Pests Destruction Acts Amend ment in that the closure has been applied ment Bill· only once in the House and twice in the Nurses an cl :VIasseurs Registration Acts Committee. Therefore, it can scarcely be Amenr1ment Bill; said that adequate opportunity for full debate Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences Acts of all the subjects that have been considered Amendment Bill; by this Assembly has not been given. Veterinary Medicines Act Amendment Bill;. Legal Practitioners Act Amendment Bill; I understand that some presentations are Mental Hygiene Bill; to be made, or that some post-sessional fnnc Income (State Development) Tax Bill; tions are to take place as soon as the House Salaries Act of 1930 Repeal Bill; adjourns. We have had a Yery busy and Dairy Produce Acts Amendment Bill No. 2; l<~riendly Societies Acts Amendment Bill; dusty afternoon working clown and around Fair Hents Act Amendment Bill. mines, and if hon. members, members of the House staff, of the '' Hansanl'' staff, ancl (Thursday, 1 December, 1938) of the Press-whom I must also thank for :'\!J:ilk Supply Bill; their consideration during tho session-will Primary Producers' Organisation and join me in the refreshment rooms we shall ~.Iarketing Acts Amendment Bill; endeaYour to wash do1Yn the dust that seems Loral Government Validation of Powers IHlJ; to haYe accumulated. Bac~nrard Persons Bill; Motion agreed to. Legitimation Acts Amendment Bill; Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Acts The Ho:'se Edjourned at 10.45 p.m. mH1 Other Acts Amendment Bill; Wheat Stabilisation Bill. PROROGATION. Parliament was prorogt1ed by the following Proclamation in Gazette Extraordinary, Thursday, 1 December, 1938. A PROCLAllfATION by His Excellenc:y the Hight Honourable SIR I.tESLIE ORME Wrr,soi'f, Colonel on the Hetired List of the Royal Marines, 'Knight Grand Commander of the Most Exalted Order of the Star of India, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George, Knight Grand Commander of the Most Eminent Order of the Indian I~mpire, Companion of the Distinguished Service Order, Governor of the State of Queensland and its Dependen~ies, in the Commonwealth of Australia. [L.S.] LESLIE WILSON, Governor. IN pursuance of the power and authority vested in me as Governor of the State aforesaid, I, SIR LESLIE 0RME Wrr.soN, the Governor aforesaid, do, by this my Proclamation, Prorogue the Parliament of Queensland to TUESDAY, the Twenty-fourth day of January, 1939. Given under my Hand and Seal, at Government House, Brisbane, this first day of December, in,-the year of our Lord one thousaml nine hundred and thirty-eight, and in the second year of His Majesty's reign. By Command, W. FOHGAN SMITH. GaD SAVE THE KING! 1938-3 0