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SELECTIONS FROM THE PRESS This section includes articles and news items, mainly from Israeli but also from international press sources, that provide insightful or illuminating perspectives on events, developments, or trends in Israel and the occupied territories not readily available in the mainstream U.S. media. INTERVIEW WITH NORMAN FINKELSTEIN Palestinian Authority are correct. It al- BY FRANK BARAT, 14 FEBRUARY 2012 ways talks about international law and (EXCERPTS) international legitimacy—namely what the law says, what the UN says—that’s Below is an excerpted transcript what they say they want. Their goals of an interview conducted by Frank are correct, but the problem is their Barat and posted on YouTube. The means will never work because the Pal- full video can be viewed at http:// estinians’ main asset is the Palestinian youtu.be/ASIBGSSw4lI. people, the four million people of Pal- Barat: I understand you’ve been estine. And if you mobilize them, gal- working on a book about solving the vanize them, I don’t think Israel has a Israel-Palestine con!ict. So how do you prayer—they can’t win. But the Palestin- do it? ian Authority will never mobilize them because they are afraid that if you mo- Finkelstein: Well, basically, to put it bilize them the Authority will meet the in a nutshell, if you are serious about same fate as Mubarak and all the oth- politics and serious about trying to ers because they are a gang of corrupt, build a mass movement, you can’t go wretched, collaborators. So their goal beyond what the public is ready to ac- is correct, but their means will never cept. The public is ready to accept, in achieve their goal because all they want my opinion, what international law says. to do is bargain behind closed doors So if you were to put forth a very simple with the Israelis, and the Israelis will slogan when you are asked, “how do never give them anything. Unless you want to solve it?” I would say easy, you have the force to extract it from Is- all I want to do is enforce the law. The rael, they will never give you anything. law is clear, it’s unambiguous, it’s un- And the main force, the main weapon, complicated. [T]he law is clear: the is the people and they will never orga- settlements are illegal—that is correct. nize it. East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian For the solidarity movement, I think territory—that is correct. The West its means are correct. I have no prob- Bank and Gaza are occupied Palestinian lem with the boycotts, the divestments, territory—that is correct. But it is also sanctions, all of that nonviolence, civil correct that Israel is a state; that is also disobedience like the !otillas, the le- the law. If you want to use the law as a gal weapon like the attempt at universal weapon or as leverage in order to reach jurisdiction. So the means are right, but public opinion, you cannot be selective the goal will never !y. You want to say with the law. You can’t say I have the you are agnostic on Israel, you want to right to walk at the green, but I’m kind say you want one state; there is nothing of agnostic on the red. No, if you have in international law for one state. You the right to walk at the green, it’s be- are not going to win a public to that. cause you have an obligation to stop at Once you step out of your little cult, the red. The law is a package deal, so your little ghetto, and you enter the real if you want to use the law, the law also world and try to reach a broad public says that Israel is a state. and say, “we are a rights-based organi- The problem with the solidarity zation” (which is what BDS [the boycott, movement is that it’s a kind of mirror divestment, and sanctions movement] image of the so-called Palestinian Au- likes to say) and we want to enforce our thority. In my opinion, the goals of the rights—okay, the law—once you step Journal of Palestine Studies Vol. XLI, No. 3 (Spring 2012), pp. 139–160, ISSN: 0377-919X; electronic ISSN: 1533-8614. © 2012 by the Institute for Palestine Studies. All rights reserved. Please direct all requests for permission to photocopy or reproduce article content through the University of California Press’s Rights and Permissions website, at http://www.ucpressjournals.com/reprintInfo.asp. DOI: jps.2012.XLI.3.139. JPS4103_10_Selections from the Press.indd 139 6/5/12 10:30 AM 140 JOURNAL OF PALESTINE STUDIES out of your ghetto you’re no longer just says anything about the minority in- talking to yourself. There is the other side Israel, the Palestinian Arab minor- side, they also make themselves heard. ity. It’s not there. You want to drag in So they say, “No, that’s not true, they’re that minority and start talking about lying. They say they want to enforce the them, well, in my opinion you will law, but they really want to destroy Is- get nowhere because the whole world rael, they want to eliminate Israel.” So is "lled with countries that persecute now the public hears both sides and their minorities. You want to go they come back to the solidarity move- through every country in the Middle ment and they say, “Is that true? Do you East and how they treat their minori- want to destroy Israel?” And the soli- ties? . If you look at, for example, darity movement says, “We do not have when Yasser Arafat declared a state in a position on Israel, we do not take a November 1988 and you read the plat- position.” Oh, really? You do not take a form, the political document, and so position on Israel? Well, then we are not forth, there is no mention of the Pal- going to take a position on BDS. estinian Arabs. There is a mention of The law is clear; you want to use the the refugee question—that is correct; International Court of Justice on your there is no mention of the Palestinian side? Okay, the International Court of Arabs in Israel. I mean, we have to Justice has said the West Bank, Gaza, be honest and I loathe disingenuous- East Jerusalem—they are occupied Pal- ness. [People] don’t want Israel; they estinian territories—that’s correct. But think they are being very clever. They the ICJ also said that the pre-June 1967 call it their three tier: “we want the end border is Israel’s legal border. That’s of the occupation, we want the right their country, that’s the law. You want of return, and we want equal rights for to promote one state? Fine, that’s your Arabs in Israel,” and they think they right, but then don’t pretend that you are very clever because they know are trying to enforce the law. That’s not the result of implementing all three is true. You want to selectively enforce the what? What is the result? You know law. and I know. There is no Israel. Barat: But what the BDS movement Barat: I think the result is that there is and, I think, more and more Palestin- no Israel the way that Israel is now, but— ians want to portray is that there aren’t four million Palestinians—there are Finkelstein: No, there is no Israel. the refugees and there are the Palestin- Full stop. And the law is Israel is a ian citizens of Israel. So it comes to a state, it has its de"ned borders, and much bigger number, and the fact that if you want to eliminate Israel, that is they’re not taking a position on whether your right but I do not think you will or not they want the State of Israel to ex- reach anybody. I think it’s a non-starter. ist or what, I think it’s not saying that If you say you want to enforce the law, we want to destroy Israel, it’s saying and in fact, impose it on Israel because that the 20 percent of the citizens of Is- they will not accept it—then the law rael who are Palestinian citizens have is clear and you have to say, and you the right to have the same rights as the will never hear the solidarity move- Israelis. ment say—two states. Go look at the UN General Assembly resolution, it always Finkelstein: . I am getting a little begins, “a peaceful settlement to the bit exasperated with what I think is . a Palestine question,” and in the last part lot of leftist posturing. There is a settle- where they lay out the terms for resolv- ment that has been proposed by the in- ing the con!ict, they say, “a two state ternational community for resolving the settlement,” and then they say, “East Je- con!ict. It does include a statement, “a rusalem, West Bank, Gaza are occupied just resolution of the refugee question Palestinian territories, settlements are il- based on UN resolution 194,” the right legal under international law, and a just of return and compensation. There is resolution to the refugee question based nothing anywhere in the international on the right of return,” but it’s all within consensus for resolving the con!ict that that framework.
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