File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
.~.. .~- -. 7419633 DEPARTMENT OF STATE • 4657 Washington. D.C. 20520
October 7, 1974 ~eRE'f'/NODIS
MEMORANDUM FOR LIEUTENANT GENERAL BRENT SCOWCROFT THE WHITE HOUSE
Subject: President's Meeting with Australian Prime Minister Whitlam, October 4, 1974
Attached is a record of the President's meeting with Prime Minister Whitlam prepared by Assistant Secretary Habib. We recommend this record, upon approval, be distributed to Secretary Kissinger( Assistant Secretary Habib and Ambassador G en in Canberra.
Attachment:
Record of the President1s meeting.
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i ~:; ~ . ~ \, ..Y,...... ~/NODIS V;~'1 XGDS-l ~ ~ ..... ~- D9CLA~ E.O. 12958, Sec. 3.S ,,1.S·tate D<";it. IfJidclines ~~v'·ew3/lJlo¥ By ...I.Mi4--, NARA, Date d;ls/ol:{ • $f!CBEW/NODIS • Memorandum 01 Conversation
DATE: October 5, 1974
SUBJECT: President's Meeting with Australian Prime Minister Whitlam
PARTICIPANTS: U.S. SIDE: The President Dr. Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State Philip C. Habib, Assistant Secretary of State
AUSTRALIAN SIDE: Prime Minister E. Gough Whitlam Foreign Minister Don Willesee Sir Patrick Shaw, Australian Ambassador Amb. Alan Renouf, Secretary of Foreign, Affairs
PLACE: The White House
DATE & TIME: Friday, October 4, 1974, 11 A.M.
While photographs were being taken, the President and the Prime Minister exchanged informal comments. The photographers then left the room.
Whitlam: I was on the hill yesterday with the Whips and principal leaders of the Congress. On both sides they all volunteered their appreciation for their relationship with you, Mr. President. They had a positive attitude on both sides of the House.
President: That is nice to hear. Having spent 25 years there, I learned that in our system of government if you work at it you can have adversaries but not enemies. We have to work together to get things done.
Whitlam: Yes. LBJ was the only President who spent as much ti~e in Congress as you.
President: He was extremely able and most successful in dealing with the Congress.
EA:Philip C.Habib:jnp.-t( '! • (Drafting Office lind Officer'
FORM 05-1254 BBGRE£f/NODIS 2 - 6~, XGDS-l .' • SECRE'±'/NODIS • 2 Whitlam: He was an able man.
Kissinger: Did you know him?
Whitlam: Yes. He came to Australia a couple of times and he also received me here. He came in 1966 on Kissinger: He was a big man in every way. Whitlam: He asked me if I had a weight probl~m. I was bigger than he was. President: He had a weight problem too. He had a heart attack in the 1950's. Whitlam: He had three Presidential photos, Washington, Roosevelt and Jackson, in his office. I recognized the photo of Jackson and he was surprised. I always thought he liked Jackson and identified with him. President: Yes, there was a sort of populist and frontier likeness. Did you ever go to his ranch? Whitlam: No. Kissinger: When Prime Minister Erhard was here, he took me with him. President Johnson thought I was a German. There are a lot of Germans in the country around Johnson City. President: It was quite an experience to ride in a jeep around the ranch with him. He would drive recklessly across country and show the deer. Whitlam: He was a skillful politician. There were some rural electrification people around and he asked me to speak tc President: He was more skillful at handling the Legislature when he was in the Congress than when he was here. I don't know why that skill eroded when he was here. , SIIQ:Ril'1'/NODIS XGDS-l " • • 3 Whitlam: It may be that his advisors were so effective that they may have blurred his view of what people thought. Westmoreland, for example, was terribly impressive when you met him but may have given the wrong advice. Kissinger: LBJ was not comfortable in foreign policy matters and he tried to make an impact in that sphere. In doing so he neglected internal affairs at which he was much better. Whitlam: He was the only President who ever came to Australia. That made a real impression on us. President: The only one? Whitlam: Yes. Everyone wants the President of the united States to come to their country. I know you have no time so I am rather cautious on this, but let me just grasp the nettle. If you are going to Japan, it would be of immense gratification if you would come to Australia. President: Give us a little time. Whitlam: I won't push. President: Give us some time. I almost got there in World War II. I was on a carrier in the New Hebrides, on the Enterprise. We made the first strike on Rabaul at Christmas and over the New Year of 1943-44. There was a series of strikes at that time, and we had two carriers and six destroyers in a diversionary force. Whitlam: Johnson was a naval officer and came to Australia during the war. In 1966, when he went back for a visit, he went to the same hotel where he had stayed earlier. Our people were very pleased. I learned last night that Joe Sisc9 was also in Australia as a Marine as were Carl Albert and Secretary Weinberger. Everyone seems to remember his wartime experiences. President: And, as the years go on, we all kind of remember that we did more to win it. Whitlam: Yes. I was in the Philippines. 'l , C , President: I noticed that your speech at the UN contained , \ thoughts similar to those I had expressed. Henry Kissinger ~ kidded me that we must have had each other's texts. gBe:DT/NODIS XGDS-l • ~ECRH~/NODIS • 4 Whitlam: What you said about food was important. We would like to have some involvement in that. President: Does agriculture have a great share of your trade? Whitlam: Yes. While a great deal of our investment is in manufacturing, our exports are in pastoral products such as wool and meat and in minerals, such as iron, coal, lead, zinc and, in due course, uranium. We are like Canada. Internally, we do a lot of manufacturing and that produces jobs, but our external economy is largely dependent on agriculture and minerals. We have a large land area, most of which is tundra or desert and a few large cities like Melbourne and Sydney. President: Can you increase your agricultural production through irrigation? Whitlam: Some of it, but it takes a great deal of capital and, once you put capital in, the costs get very high. For example, with the U.K. and Common Market our canned and dried fruits become too expensive. President: Besides which, no one wants to eat dried food. Kissinger: I remember my Division Commander in Normandy asked me to leave supplies behind for the French. Can you imagine trying to give Spam away to a Norman peasant? First of all he can't believe he is getting something for nothing, and he is looking for the quid pro quo. President: Were you in the Army? Whitlam: I was in the Air Force. I saw enough of the Army in the ROTC days to decide to choose the Air Force. President: That is one of our problems in recruiting. The Air Force has better facilities; the Navy does pretty well; and the Army gets short-shrift. Whitlam: Yes, in the Air Force you can get good training while Army training is not so fruitful. President: We are grateful for all the good relations we have with you. I want you to know the United States Government's position on foreign policy will be the same as it has been. I always believed in the policy because it is good. We are on the right track on relations with the Soviets and Chinese. We l (.' f , , GECRBT(NODIS \ XGDS-I ~/NODIS 5 will remain strong in NATO and we want a presence, in a constructive way, in your part of the world. Our relations with Australia are part of that worldwide policy. Whitlam: How your relations with the Soviets develop is really up to you alone. We can influence some things, for example in our relations with Japan and Indonesia and to a lesser extent with countries like India and those in Southeast Asia. We are trying to have good relations with Japan and Indonesia. With Japan so dependent on our resources we donlt want to drive them into a desperate situation as in 1940. We want to assure them of dependable resources. We want to spell it out in a treaty with them, but that will come slowly. In Indonesia there are only a handful of people with any real ability, and it is difficult to deal with some of the problems. For example, corruption is a worrisome thing when you compare it to our standards. President: It is a big and broken country with all those islands. Whitlam: There are over a thousand. Kissinger: There is no common historical tradition between all the islands except that which is brought to them by the Dutch Government. Whitlam: The only unifying historical tradition is ln Java. Kissinger: B ut places like Borneo had no historical relation to Java. Also part of New Guinea was wanted by the Indonesians simply because it had been under Dutch rule. They did not feel the same about Timor which was and is part of Portugal. Whitlam: Yes, there was a sort of successor state mentality. Sukarno was a great orator and he spread his influence through words and the use of a single language throughout the archipelago. By using one language he made that a unifying force. President: He addressed the Congress in 1951 or 1952. He was one of the best orators we ever heard. He was a spellbinder. Whitlam: He was a terrific showoff. He could quote Jefferson, but he could not cope with his problems later on. Kissinger: He came close. If that coup had succeeded, it would have been very serious. If he had gotten the Chief of SECRB'f/NODIS XGDS-l eEGRH/NODIS 6 Sta ,he might have had a chance. But he did not and then the military organized and cut Sukarno up into little pieces and finally got rid of him. But don't forget that he came within a hairline of pulling his coup off and that would have put you under pressure. Whitlam: Suharto likes a personal relationship with neighbor ing heads. He did it with Marcos, Razak and to a certain extent with Lee and the Burmese. I was included this time and we have good relations. At the time of the coup he was on a boat communing with the spirits. He took me to a plateau, a mystic place, in Java. During the period he was ousting Sukarno, Suharto spent the night there. He got a mystic feeling of continuity. They have a sense of Javanese continuity. Willesee: Suharto even has some mystical advisors. Whitlam: When I visited, everything went like clockwork. There were a great number of functions and people in Central Java. They had school kids and others lined up for about 60 miles along the route. President: Is that something that goes back to their training under Dutch management? Whitlam: No, this transcends the Dutch who managed it like an estate. Suharto was in Java when the Dutch withdrew and the Japanese came, and he remembers that. When it comes to organizing things, they had quite a program. Everything efficiently organized and up to 1/2 million people involved, and yet it was unhurried. Makes you wonder to what extent they can organize their things. Maybe even such things as rakeoffs. They have come a long way and we have established good relations with them. They were worried when our Government came in but we think they understand us now. Kissinger: They are very interested in Cambodia. Whitlam: Yes, there seems to be some solidarity between Generals and Field Marshalls. Kissinger: They are very anti-Communist. They were and still are. When I called on Suharto in Brussels to persuade him to participate in the ICCS, I had to explain to him that they were not to fight the Communists. He seemed ready to use his troops to clean up the Communists. SileRE'f'/NODIS XGDS-l :~,; "r., '",II''/ SECRB'F/NODIS 7 Whitlam: They are a tough people. Kissinger: At the time of the coup there were hundreds of thousands or more killed. I saw one estimate of three hundred thousand and even more. Whitlam: It was a popular thing. They equate the Chinese with foreign influence and went after some of their local Chinese who had been exploiting them. Willesee: That period left a trauma. In the recent riots in Jakarta the Government would not accept any simple explanation of what was going on. Whitlam: Jakarta has developed an urban civilization and there is no tradition to cope with it. They don't know how to get sufficient employment for the people in the cities. Kissinger: Conditions for a built-in revolution. Whitlam: They don't know how to cope with the problem of a large city with an articulate population without employment and unused talents. President: Do you have a student problem such as with ours who are always telling us that we don't know how to solve our problems? Whitlam: All countries have such a problem. In Japan we see a great increase in the skepticism of the young. Kissinger: Except generally students have emotional reactions but no sense of how to work. They like dramatic gestures, but try to get them to go on and they don't follow through. During the Cambodian incursion I brought groups of students in for talks and I asked them to come back. After they came back a few times, they would stop because they had no interest in discussion. President: They want to change things but not work at it. Whitlam: It is a good thing to have children. You will be better off having raised teen-age children. Some of our Ministers without children don't have a feeling for what goes on. President: My three boys more than my daughter have made me realize how different they all are. One is a square and the second could have become a Communist or a John Bircher but he ~RD'f/NODIS XGDS-I 8 turned out to be a middle-of-the roader. The third is different and we have lively discussions at home. Whitlam: We have three sons and a daughter which is a salutary thing. Many of our student causes are derivative. For example, toward Latin America, they get their attitudes from reading about things written in the States which are of no real interest to us. President: How long will you be here? Whitlam: I am leaving to see Pierre Trudeau this afternoon. never like to come to Washington without visiting Canada because then people criticize me for thinking that North America is only the United States. Kissinger: He is an interesting man. Whitlam: The Canadians are very similar to us in their economic situation and they also have to live with you. I think it was Trudeau who said it was like living with an elephant. President: We have a great relationship withthe Canadians. We have 3,000 miles of border and our people have been going back and forth for centuries. Whitlam: Their corporate relations are important and we want to learn from the Canadian experience. But there are differ~nces. For example, the Canadians have an appointed Senate and we have an elected Senate. Our Senate was onthe model of the House of Lords, but then this year for the first time they refused to pass a budget bill and we had to have an election. Kissinger: The same thing happened historically in England. Although the House of Lords is a hereditary body, when it tried to exercise its power that broke the House of Lords. Whitlam: We also have a different federal system than the Canadians. Six Australian states are still technically British colonies not like in Canada. That could bring on a constitutional problem but we don't expect it to do so. As the meeting ended and he was leaving, Prime Minister Whitlam asked after the health of Mrs. Ford and expressed the deep hope that she would recover fully and quickly. The President thanked him and said she was coming along very well. Si8CR::E'i'/NODIS XGDS-l INITIAL. ACTION 0 CIRCL.E AS APPROPRIAT.E TO: PRES FROM: KISSINGER, H SIS UNCL.AS OTHER ______KISSINGER ______COL.BY, W L.OU NO FORN SCOWCROFT_77>C:£k______SCHL.ESINGER, J C DAVIS ST EX SEC ----c::i2 CODEWORD TS SENSITIVE .( •X . . ( APPROPRIATE ACTION .( MEMO'____ TO____ .( RECOMMENDATIONS .( JOINT MEMO. .( REFER TO______FOR:______ ANY ACTION NECESSARY? .( CONCURRENCE. .( DUE DATE: COMMENTS: (IMCLUDIN~ SPECJAL INSTRUCTIONS) :z"" 2 I U 000( ~ !: I :::Io III: I :z UJ :::I C1I UJ ""l1li :::I "" :: DISPA T C H ...J~~~~L....!.:R....E.~~::t.I::sI}IfQ!:l..2-s;!.t:::~::2~~.2:41E.C:L-4;...t:jUrL2~;.....,.a..~:Ll.LL..L.¥_}__I: ~ CY RQMTS: NOTI FY______& OAT E ______ e; SPECIAL. DISPOSI TlON: ------....JI---"""'i!"i..~~..., Q CROSS REF W/-----~--_r_~~------_i OP'eft~----_i SUSPENSE C Y AT T AC HED: -----if'------FOL.DER: ______-1 '!",...~E-_1~...... ,._I ~--. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASHINGTON. D.C. 20506 • '--'vo. SECRET/NODIS ATTACHMENT October 25, 1974 MEMORANDUM FOR: Mr. George S. Springsteen Executive Secretary Department of State SUBJECT: Memorandum of President's Meeting with Australian Prime Minister Attached for the information of your principals and of Assistant Secretary Habib is the approved memorandum of the President's conversation with Prime Minister Whitlam. on October 5, 1974. Attached ~lso for transmission to Ambassador Green in Embassy ('.anberra is a summary of the conversation. .The memcon itself should not be sent to the Embass y . Attachments dispatched 10/25/74 =~'3f-- 'f ',~r- :.J DECI.A88lFIEO ..' ~~v {.~ t ,.... .:. E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.' ,- ...... ) " '1 ,,_. s:' NSC ,!O, 11124198, STATE DEPT, GUlDEUNES r!,--f:Jt tc...- ~ ~ ~/IDI0 ¥ -. I;;.... BY ~ , MARA, DATE . 11:00 a. m •• Friday October 4, 1974 The Oval Office After openIng pleasantries and short photography sel8ion. Prime Minister Whitlam invited President Ford to visit Australia during his November viait to Japan. President indicated his interest in visiting the country but was non-committal as to when he would be able to make the trip. President complimented Prime Minister Whittam on his UNGA speech. noting that the Prime Minister I a thoughts on food aid were similar to those he had expressed. In reply to question from the President regarding trade, Prime Minister explained that Australian exports conslat primarily of pastoral products such as wool and meat and minerals such as iron, coal and lead. Internally. Australia's economy is linked to manufacturing. but externally it is largely dependent on agriculture and minerals. Prime Minister believed agricultural production could be increased through irrigation. but that it takes a great deal of capital and. once the capital is put in, the costs get very high. The President reassured Prime Minister Whittam that US foreign policy under his administration wouIH remain the same as it was under the previous administration. He noted that the US will remain strong in NATO and that US relations with Australia are part of the US worldwide policy of constructive cooperation with all nations, DECLIr9SlFIfD E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.1 GDS NBC M!MO.11J24198, STATE DEn GUIOElINES ~'kv: ~ 3/(0/04 BY ~ . ~A.R~ f")"TL~!~L/ MEMORANDUM • 3351 NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SEeR m/NODIS GDS ACTION October 11, 1974 MEMORANDUM FOR: SECRETARY KISSINGER FROM: W.R.SMY~ SUBJECT: Memorandum. of Conversation of the President's Meeting with Australian Prime Minister Whit1am on October 4, 1974 At Tab I is a draft memorandum from you to the President forwarding the memorandum of conversation covering his meeting with Australian Prime Minister Whitlam on October 4, 1974. RECOMMENDATION: That you sign the draft memorandum to the President at Tab I. , ~o ( -,~. -,", '"" ~ ~ 5lSCREl~ /NODIS GDS tAt 5/5/011 .: ~ •... MEMORANDUM • 3351 THE WJ;IITE HOUSE WASHINGTON SiSCRE'!'/NODIS MEMORANDUM FOR: FROM: SUBJECT: f Conversation of Your ustr~lian Prime Minister tober 4, 1974 At Tab.A is a draft memorandum of conve" sation covering your meeting with Australian Prime Minister Whitlam ,n\r;)ctober 4, 1974. l 1 " '\ RECOMMENDATION: ! \ l '\ f \ That you approve the draft memorand~ of conv~rsation at Tab A with distribution to be made only to Assistfnt Secretat\r Habib, Ambassador Marshall Green, and myself. I \ / \ " \ APPROVE / DISAPPROVE\-\-\_,____ I \ I~\ n ~ '\ "\-,; I 'c SiilGQK:f/NODIS GDS U, 5/5/,,"1 INITIAL ACTION 0 •• 1_____ HAK. PRES .·1__-- .1_____ ACTION. MEMO'_____ TO____ .1 _____ RECOMMENDATIONS .1 ______ JOINT MEMO. .1 ______REFER TO FOR:______ ANY ACTION NECESSARY? .1 ______•• 1_____ CONCURRENCE. COMMENTS: (INCLUDING SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS) ...!IIi: DISPATCH CROSS REF WI il'"