[Thursday, 17 November 19831 479579

sideration and your petitioners as in duty 1flgi~tfilue Anaenbig bound, will ever pray. Thursday, 17 November 1983 I certify that the petition conforms to tlie StandI- ing Orders of the Legislative Assembly. The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be The SPEAKER (Mr Harman) took the Chair brought to the Table of the House. at 10.45 am., and read prayers. (See petition No. 57.)

INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SELECT COMMITTEES Job Security Test Case: Petition Appointed as Honorary Royal Commissions: Mo- MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Leader of the tion Opposition) [10.46 a.m.]: I present a petition MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Leader of the from 13 residents of the Avon region praying that House) [10.48 am.]: I move- it be known that they do not support the appli- (1) That where a Select Committee of cation known as the job security test case which this House has not finally reported the ACTU has brought befre the Common- at any time during the current wealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission. session of Parliament: and They humbly pray that the Western Australian Government will reject any similar application in (2) Where the members of such Select Western Australia. Committee are appointed as a Royal Commission pursuant to s.8 The petition conforms to the Standing Orders of the Royal Commissions Act of the Legislative Assembly, and I have certified 1968; and accordingly. (3) The terms of reference of the Royal The SPEAKER: I direct that the petition be Commission so appointed are sub- brought to the Table of the House. stantially those of any such Select (See petition No. 56.) Committee, the Clerk of the Assembly is hereby author- EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL ised and directed to transmit to the Royal Huntingdale: Petition Commission so appointed, upon its request. any evidence, document, or thing, taken by, MRS HENDERSON (Gosnells) [10.47 am.]: I or presented to, or connected with, the in- have a petition from 201 citizens of Huntingdale quiry conducted by any such Select Com- and it reads- mittee. To: I understand that only one Select Committee has The Honourable the Speaker and Mem- been established this session-that is, the one in- bers of the Legislative Assembly of the Par- quiring into alcohol and drugs-and that it is the liament of Western Australia in Parliament desire of the committee, a desire with which the assembled. Government concurs, that it be converted into an Honorary Royal Commission. This motion is to We, the undersigned are concerned that facilitate that process. our children, who attend Huntingdale Pri- mary School are being penalized by the over MR HASSELL (Cottesloe-Deputy Leader of large classes at that school. We believe that the Opposition) [10.49 a-in.]: I take it the purpose an Education Department formula regarding of this motion is to facilitate the business of a Sel- ect Committee which is turned class sizes has been broken with no regard for into an Honorary Royal Commission. the welfare of our children. We understood that this Government was pledged to reduce Mr Brian Burke: That is correct. class sizes. If this is so it is not now apparent Mr HASSELL: It is a mechanical thing. From to us. We request that immediate steps be what the Leader of the House has said I do not taken to appoint to the Huntingdale Primary know what the difficulty is that the Government School the number of teachers to which it is is trying to overcome. What has happened in the entitled under the Education Department's past? Perhaps some difficulty has arisen staffing formula. Mr Tonkin: Not that I know of. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray Mr HASSELL: The Government will under- that you will give this matter earnest con- stand that we want to know precisely what this is 4796 4796[ASSEMB LY] about. I wonder whether some problem has arisen terial disclosed to a Select Committee of the or whether the Government is contemplating a House is confidential and anybody who discloses problem arising related to something it will be it to anybody else is liable to the stiff penalty as doing in the future or something it will want to be provided in the Criminal Code. Something of this doing. sort is needed to allow the Secretary of the Select Mr Tonkin: We want to convert it into an Committee to write to himself in the different ca- Honorary Royal Commission and we need to have pacity seeking the material in order to cover him- continuity between the two bodies. If the Clerk is self. not empowered to transmit the information re- Mr CLARKO: Apparently only one Select ceived by the Select Committee to the Honorary Committee exists at present, and this motion is to Royal Commission, which consists of the same accommodate that committee. However, will it people, you would have an hiatus. I think it is nor- create the situation in the future where all Select mal practice. Committees will move to the other category. Mr HASSELL: I am not raising an objection Mr Parker: No. to the motion; I am simply trying to clarify Mr CLARKO: But the motion does not name whether a problem has arisen or whether the the committee. Government is contemplating some change to the way things operate. Mr Parker: It talks about the present session of the Parliament. Mr Parker: It involves confidential information being transferred from one legal entity to another. Mr CLARKO: But it does not refer to the Sel- ect Committee on alcohol and drugs specifically, Mr HASSELL: Has this problem not arisen and if it meant to refer to that committee one before? would think it would name it. Mr Tonkin: I understand this is normal prac- Mr Parker: What about if next week the House tice. I am not familiar with other Select Com- decides to set up another Select Committee? mittees, so I cannot tell. Mr CLARKO: I could be disproved readily, Mir HASSELL: We are not apprised of what but I believe that in the past if we wanted to do the Government is about by what the Leader of something of this nature we enumerated the Sel- the House has said; however, we will not object to ect Committee. the motion. There is some deficiency in the expla- nation Car it, though. Mr Parker: It does not go to any definite com- mittee, but it does go to any committee set up this MR CLAUI(O (Karrinyup) [10.51 am.]: I have session. a recollection that, in the past, if a Government were trying to do something like this, it would Mr CLARKO: Why has the Government name the Select Committee involved; the Govern- chosen not to name the committee, whereas in the ment would say that it was perhaps the committee past I believe such committees have been named? inquiring into the dairy industry which was want- Why was this course not taken in the past? ing to move to the other path. This motion ap- In regard to part (3) of the motion where it pears to be open-ended. Is it open-ended for all refers to the terms of reference of the commission Select Committees to become Royal Commissions being "substantially those of any such Select from hereinafter or are the provisions oC the mo- Committee", I am somewhat intrigued about the tion only to deal with this one Select Committee legality of the term "substantially". It seems that and then they will evaporate? I have been of the this will open a Pandora's box as to the terms of opinion that, in the past, this move Cram a Select reference we can have. The motion is universal. Committee to an Honorary Royal Commission Does it mean the Government has in mind the ap- has been automatic. pointment of another Select Committe? If it does I have never known a case where it was necess- not, why did it not specify the committee? ary for materials to be passed from a Select Com- MR THOMPSON (Kalamunda) [10.55 am.]: mittee 10 an Honorary Royal Commission. It Our Standing Orders need to be amended to over- seems that in the past the procedure was that the come the necessity for a motion such as this to be Select Committee moved to its next stage and passed. There have been many occasions during adopted the title oC Honorary Royal Commission my experience in this House where the life of the while its perrormances, powers, and so on were, in Parliament has been extinguished and Select effect, the same; iCnot, they were similar. Committees have not had time to report. Indeed, I Mr Parker: As I see the problem it is this: was a member of a couple of those Select Com- Under the Standing Orders of this House, ma- mittees. [Thursday, 17 November 1983) 479779

Mr Tonkin: You were chairman of one particu- Mr CRANE: 1 was never aware- larly infamous one, if I remember correctly. The SPEAKER: Order! There is absolutely far M r T HOM PSON: A fa mous one. too much conversation going on around this Mr Tonkin: An infamous one. Chamber, and I ask that members desist. Mr THOMPSON: It was non-productive, I Mr CRANE: That is why I have had to ask might say, because of a certain lack of co-oper- these questions; it was impossible in the early ation. It would be sensible to amend the Standing stage to hear what was said. That is not a Orders to allow material that has been placed be- reflection on the Leader of the House; I was fore a Select Committee to be transferred to an trying to hear him but people from the back Honorary Royal Commission. Quite often these bench were talking. My point is that there is a commissions are set up under those circum- great deal of difference between the term "substantially sta nces. the same" and the term "the same". I was under the impression, perhaps the Of course, the terms of reference of such a wrong impression, that the terms of reference of commission are completely within the hands of an Honorary Royal Commission were required to the Executive. The Government is able to frame be the same as those of the Select Committee the terms of reference in any way it likes. This from which the commission was formed. I thought motion says that the terms of reference of the we always conducted inquiries along those lines. commission are to be substantially the same as the terms of reference of the Select Committee, MR COWAN (Merredin) 111.00 am.]: Unlike and that would be a sensible approach because the member for Kalamunda, I do not agree that otherwise what could happen is that the Govern- we need to change Standing Orders. I am very ment might, following the setting up of a Select pleased to see the Leader of the House in fact Committee of this House, adopt some different validate something which has always been taken terms of reference upon the appointment of the for granted in relation to Select Committees Honorary Royal Commission, and that action which have been converted to Honorary Royal would not be in accordance with the wishes of the Commissions. House. That part of the motion is appropriate in Mr Tonkin: We like to do things properly in those circumstances. this Government. MR CRANE (Moore) [10.57 a.m.J: I must rise Mr Bertram: Hear, hear! on this occasion because there was so much noise Mr Clarko: You are still trying. in the Chamber when the Leader of the House Mr Bertram: The tired young men who sit op- moved this motion that I could not hear what he posite. said. Mr COWAN: In this instance the Leader of Mr Tonkin: It means exactly what it says. the House is quite correct; he is doing things Mr CRANE: We are told that when Adam properly. I also concede that an occasion may woke to find Eve beside him he said, "There just arise when it is desired to convert a Select Com- has to be a reason". There must be a reason for mittee into an Honorary Royal Commission and a the motion saying that the terms of reference of a need existed, because of the findings of the Select commission must be substantially the same as Committee, for the terms of reference of the those of the Select Committee from which the Committee to be changed slightly. I do not have commission was formed. I have been on two Sel- any great dispute with that, but of course, it really ect Committees, which were subsequently turned is a subjective judgment as to whether the terms into Honorary Royal Commissions, and on both of reference are substantially the same. I am very occasions the terms of reference of the com- pleased to see such a motion come before this mission were exactly the same as those of the Sel- House and, for the first time, I would think, the ect Committee, not substantially the same. There Clerk will have authority to be able to transmit is no such thing as something "substantially the the evidence that has been collected by the Select same". Committee to the Honorary Royal Commission. Mr Cla rko: It is like your aunty and your uncle. The National Party supports this motion. Mr CRANE: Yes. What is the reason for this MR TRETHOWAN (East Melville) motion? The terms of reference of a Select Com- [11.02 a.m.]: My concern is purely the effect that mittee are automatically transferred to an Honor- changing the terms of reference of a Select Com- ary Royal Commission. mittee may have when it is transformed into a Mr Tonkin: It is not automatic: there is no Royal Commission. I ask this question in order to automatic mechanism. seek information: What legal effect would a 4798 4798[ASSEMBLY] change in the terms of reference have upon the "substantially those" implies a difference, but we evidence previously given to a Select Committee all know there is a difference between something once it is converted to a Royal Commission? If that is radically altered, or substantially the same, the terms of reference are changed, does that in and only altered in a minute sense. The idea of fact change the legal basis upon which the testi- this motion, as the member for Merredin quite mony previously given was heard, and does that correctly said, is that it has been previously pre- affect the ability of the Royal Commission to sumed that the members who comprised the Sel- make its report on evidence given to the Select ect Committee, and the secretary, would also be Committee prior to the change in the terms of able to carry on their functions and transmit the reference and the conversion of that Select Com- evidence they had received to the Royal Com- mittee to a Royal Commission? mission. This will make it absolutely clear that MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Leader of the these different bodies, which as the Minister for House) [11.03 a.I: I thank members of the Op- Employment and Administrative Services said, position for their learned contributions to the de- are each different legal entities and are the proper bate. heir to the knowledge that was received by the previous legal entity; it is as simple as that. The Mr O'Connor: We were really seeking infor- motion is couched in general terms, as has been mation. suggested, in case we do appoint another Select Mr Clarko: Is that sarcasm? Committee. Members of the Opposition have Mr TONKIN: The member knows me better learned from their experience just how amenable than that. to reasoned argument this Government is. If a Mr Clarko: It is sarcasm then. member of the Opposition- Mr Laurance: You will ruin your image, the Mr Clarko: Now you are being a hypocrite. way you are carrying on now. Mr TONKIN: -were to rise in his place and Mr TONKIN: The member for Karrinyup was move a motion which we felt was compelling, it could be that we would accept that motion. We concerned that we did not actually name the Sel- ect Committee. I can just imagine the Situation if could have another Select Committee and we we had named the Select Committee. He would would not want to waste the time of this House by have stood up and said "Why don't you put it in' again bringing forward a similar motion. general terms because the House might decide to Mr Cowan: A Select Committee reports to the appoint another Select Committee next week and House. By converting it to an Honorary Royal we wilt have wasted the time of the House by de- Commission you are in fact allowing the com- bating this motion?" mission to report to the Government. Can you Mr Clarko: I was not trying to attack you. give an assurance in your reply that the report will be tabled in the Parliament so that it becomes Mr TONKIN: It seems to me that people like a public document? to hear themselves talk. Mr TONKIN: I cannot give that assurance be- Mr Clarko: That again is a piece of abuse. cause I am not the Minister handling the matter. Mr TON KIN: If that is the worst kind of abuse It may well be that that is the intention of the the member receives, he will do quite well in life. Government. The Minister for Health or the Mr Hassell: How are you going to convince Government generally, I presume, will decide that anyone that you are really a nice fellow? matter. The Government is in favour of having as Mr Brian Burke: It would not matter how you much openness in Government as possible in re- carried on; you wouldn't have a hope. gard to the tabling of reports. That is our true position. Mr Hassell: H-ow nice you are. Are you going to repeat last night's performance? Mr Brian Burke: I think we have already dem- onstrated that in the last eight months we have Mr Brian Burke: I thought you started it. tabled more reports and released more infor- Mr TONKIN: The idea of the termn mation. "'substantially those" in reference to the terms of Mr TONKIN: I would think the Government reference is that the terms of reference may need would, although I naturally cannot speak for the to be altered, even if only slightly. That is the first Government. I have not actually spoken to my point. colleague. We take on board the comments mem- We do not want to trammel ourselves too much. bers of the Opposition make. This is a very in- I think this is quite reasonable. I accept what the nocuous motion. It does not go into perpetuity. It member for Moore says, that the term is a sessional order and it applies to this part of [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 479949

the Parliament. It was designed merely to ensure Mr HASSELL: If the Premier wants to be pro- that members of a Select Committee are not in vocative- some way in breach of Standing Orders if they The SPEAKER: Order! I had enough of this carry out their duties as intended when a Select behaviour last night and early this morning and I Committee is converted to a Royal Commission. do not intend to tolerate it again. The Deputy Question put and passed. Leader of the Opposition has the call of the Chair. lnterj .ections, as all members know, are ACTS AMENDMENT (PARLIAMENT) BILL highly disorderly. Second Reading Mr HASSELL: The Premier should take some Debate resumed from 10 November. notice of the Chair because he is simply being provocative, as is his legislation and his attempt- MR HIASSELL (Cottesloe-Deputy Leader of the Opposition) 111.08 am.): The timing, presen- Mr Parker: You are saying stupid things. tation and handling of this Bill is deliberately pro- Mr HASSELL: -to deal with it. It is deliber- vocative. The Government is spoiling for a fight ately provocative. with the Legislative Council. Mr Brian Burke: You have spent four minutes Mr Tonkin: This is to overcome fights. abusing me; all I said was, "You are a bully". Mr HASSELL: I assure the Government it will Several members interjected. get the light it wants. The SPEAKER: Order! I suggest the Deputy Mr Tonkin: You can speak for the Legislative Leader of the Opposition address his remarks to Council, can you? the Bill. Mr Brian Burke: Don't threaten us. You are a Government members: Hear, Hear! bully boy. Mr HASSELL: With respect to you, Mr Mr Gordon Hill: Don't threaten the Govern- Speaker, I commenced my speech by addressing ment. my remarks to the Bill, but the Premier once Mr HASSELL: Neither the Government's pat- again began to try to tell us how we should con- ronising carry-on, nor anything else it- duct our business and began to be abusive, as he Mr Brian Burke: You are an effeminate little is all the time. bully boy. Mr Parker: He is honest. Mr HASSELL: -or the Premier says by way Mr HASSELL: The fact of the matter is that of abuse, whether it be personal or otherwise, will this Bill was introduced in a big hurry last affect what the Opposition stands for or what it Thursday following the defeat of the Govern- says. ment's Acts Amendment (Constitution and Elec- Mr Brian Burke: You are still a bully. toral) Bill in the Legislative Council. It was Mr HASSELL: The sooner the Premier re- brought in on that day deliberately so that the alises that we will not stand for his telling us how Government could try to have another go at get- to conduct our affairs in this place, the better off ting that legislation through. he will be. The essence of this legislation is the attempt of Mr Brian Burke: You are still a bully. the Government to provide a procedure so that it- Mr HASSELL: What the Premier says will not make any difference. His abuse will go down on Mr Tonkin: To let the people decide. the record against him. Mr HASSELL: --can do precisely what it Mr Brian Burke: You are still a bully. I am just failed to do with the Acts Amendment making that point. (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. Mr HASSELL: The Premier's point is wrong, Mr Tonkin: It is for the people to decide. as so often he is. Mr O'Connor: The people will get no vote in Mr Brian Burke: You are still a bully. any region if you have your way. Mr HASSELL: The Premier is loud and ob- Mr Tonkin: The people will decide. noxious when he behaves in that way. Several members interjected. Mr Brian Burke: You are still a bully. Mr O'Connor: What you want is election of The SPEAKER: Order! members of Parliament in the Council by TIC Mr Brian Burke: That is just the way you are. I and ALP executives. do not even hold it against you. Several members interjected. 4800 4800[ASSEMBLY]

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Tonkin: We are talking about the abolition Mr HASSELL: It was my understanding the of the Legislative Council. people decided in February; they elected the Mr HASSELL: What the Leader of the House Government and they elected the Legislative has responded to is the directives of these confer- Council. The people's decision is there and no ences and it is a directive of a conference about matter what the Premier says or what the which I am talking. Government says, the Legislative Council is a Mr Tonkin: You can't abolish the Legislative part of this Parliament and until the Legislative Council. Council agrees to legislation, it does not become law. In relation to constitutional legislation, until Mr Brian Burke: It is your law. the Legislative Council passes a Bill, it cannot Several members inlerjected. have a referendum. This is the law of the land and Mr HASSELL: If Government members want the Premier has to comply with that law, as does to run the whole Government by referendum, they everyone else. should follow that through and be consistent and Mr Tonkin: We are complying with it. put all the issues to referendum as well. The Mr HASSELL: As I said, the Government has Government is trying to say it should have a set out to be deliberately provocative; it is spoiling referendum on this issue simply because it wants for a Fight with the Legislative Council and to have a referendum. wishes to cause a conflict, and it will get a conflict Mr Tonkin: You made that law when you were because it is unlikely that the Legislative Council in Government. Don't you know? will fall for this proposal of the Government to Mr HASSELL: The Premier and the Leader of give itself another go on the very measure on the House seem to have some difficulty in under- which it has already directed. standing the simple constitutional provisions of Mr Brian Burke: Don't threaten us. this State. They require that a referendum be held Mr HASSELL: The real objective of the when the legislation in question has been adopted Government has been clear all along. I outlined by Parliament. that objective when I spoke on the Acts Amend- M r Tonkin: That is right; we know. ment (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. One of the Mr HASSELL: Unless it is adopted by Parlia- comments I said was this- ment, there will be no referendum and Parliament Notwithstanding the State Labor Party's is unlikely to adopt it, so why keep ranting and modified stance the overriding Federal raving about a referendum? platform still seeks abolition of the Legislat- Mr Brian Burke: Because you can't abolish the ive Council. Legislative Council without one. Mr Tonkin: That cannot be done without the Mr Tonkin: You cannot abolish the Legislative consent of the people, as you know. Council. Mr HASSELL: The Australian Labor Party's Mr HASSELL: The Labor Party. is still com- 1982 platform, constitution, and rules, which were mitted to the abolition of the Legislative Council. approved by its thirty-fifth national conference in This Bill we are debating now demonstrates, even Canberra in 1982 and published by R. F. more clearly than the earlier legislation, how de- McMullen, the national secretary, states under termined the Government is to abolish that Legis- the heading "Constitution and Legal" subsection lative Council, and in the meantime turn it into a 26, page 21 - nothing. The reform of State upper Houses and ul- I repeat again what I said in the earlier debate timately their abolition. on the Acts Amendment (Constitution and Elec- Mr Tonkin: It is not possible without the con- toral) Bill- sent of the people. When the various provisions of the legis- Mr Brian Burke: Is that true or not? lation before us and the announced proposals Mr HASSELL: Mr Speaker, the Leader of the of the Government and its policy proposals House continues to interject despite your ruling. are considered together, it is our conclusion Nevertheless, what he is interjecting about is so that the Government's plan is to reduce the much nonsense. When did the Labor Party seek a power, prestige, effectiveness and representa- referendum of the people on whether Western tive character of the Legislative Council and Australia's uranium could be mined, or when will to leave it as a debating Chamber of little or it do that? no consequence. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]180 4801

In the speech made by the Premier when he Let me give the House one example. If the Bill usurped the position of the Governor at the open- were adopted and a deadlock between the As- ing of the Parliament on 26 July- sembly and the Council eventuated, the Assembly Several members interjected. would then have the choice of passing a resolution for a referendum on the Bill or a resolution for a Mr HASSELL: The Premier did, he came into double dissolution. However, that would not de- this House and presented a document, an address termine the issue because if the Assembly passed by the Premier on the reconvening of the Parlia- a resolution saying that there should be a double ment setting out the Government's legislative pro- dissolution, the Governor would still have to de- gramme. For as long as anyone can remember cide whether there would be one. In other words, that address has been given by the Governor of the machinery set down by the Bill provides for the State who, on behalf of Her Majesty, presents the Assembly to direct that something happen the address to the Parliament outlining the legis- and for the Government to then decide whether it lative programme of the Government. will, in fact, happen. That is a very significant Several members interjected. constitutional issue and one which requires proper Mr Bryce- I do not think Her Majesty was consideration-consideration which no member of interested in it. this House could give it in the time which has been allowed by the Minister and the Govern- Mr HASSELL: Cannot the Deputy Premier do ment. better than that? The Deputy Premier just shows his dislike for the whole system. I am very serious in making the point that this Bill is being presented in a way which shows the Mr Bryce: You are a little bit attached, are you contempt which this Government has for the Par- not? liament. Its ravings about Parliament and its im- Mr HASSELL: I will quote from the Premier's portance when in Opposition-they are more speech in which he set out the Government's legis- muted statements when in Government-are lative programme. He said- sheer hypocrisy. Let me conclude by saying that my The Government has no mandate whatsoever Government is committed to the persistence for this Bill. The Government's previous claims of Parliament as a viable and vital for a mandate have been based on the proposition institution, rather than as a moribund rubber that, because the Government set out what it stamp. would do in its policy document which it issued in What will we see with this Bill? Not one Govern- January 1983, it has a mandate to do those things. That has been the proposition on which ment member will have anything to say about it the Government has proceeded. However, in this other than to comment strictly in accordance with case the Government is not doing anything that the party line. resembles what it said it would do in the 1983 pol- Mr Crane: They are not allowed to. icy document. Mr HASSELL: They are not allowed to and The Opposition has previously rejected what it there will probably not be one Government memn- regards as the spurious claim of a mandate even if ber who will speak on the Bill at all- the Government was carrying out its previous Several members interjected. stated policy, but the Government's own test Mr HASSELL: -if the same action is fol- shows it has no mandate for this Bill. towed that has been taken by the Government on 1 refer to the Government's policy statement of other Bills. When the Leader of the House, the January 1983; I have previously referred to it dur- responsible Minister, has made his second reading ing debates on other so-called reform Bills. The speeches he has ranted and raved and has replied document is entitled, 'Parliamentary and Elec- to the debates in a similar vein. toral Reform", and it was presented by Brian Burke, the Leader of the Western Australian Op- I go back to the point I was making. The hand- position and by David Parker, the shadow Minis- ling of this Bill reduces and diminishes Parlia- ter for Parliamentary and Electoral Reform. ment and the parliamentary process. Even though it is late in the session there is absolutely no Mr Bryce: It is a good document. reason that more time could not have been given Mr HASSELL: Why is not the Government for consideration of this Bill. It is a complex Bill following it? and it relates to the Constitution. It contains some Mr Bryce: It will be followed over a period of complex provisions relating to the way in which it time. We do not intend to do it precisely at the will operate. same time. We are even prepared to refine it. 4802 4802[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Old: You may be prepared, but are you Mr HASSELL: In The West Australian news- capable? paper of 31 May the Government't position was Several members interjected. stated as follows- Mr HASSELL: What the Deputy Premier does The WA Government is preparing legis- not understand is that I am not speaking about lation to provide means of breaking dead- something which the Government is not doing at locks between the two Houses of State Par- all which arises out of the policy. Although the liament. The legislation will include a Government has not attempted to put into effect a double-dissolution provision similar to that good many of its policies, I am talking about which exists for the Senate. something it has brought forward in the Hill be- The procedure contained in this Bill is not similar fore the House, but which does not follow its pol- to that of the Senate. The article goes on- icy, conflicts with it, and is completely contrary to It will also give the Government the option what it said it would do. Does the Government of holding a referendum on legislation re- claim a mandate? jected by the Legislative Council. Mr Bryce: Maybe it is a logical and sensible That is completely dissimilar from the situation refinement. with the Senate because such a procedure is not Mr HASSELL: The Deputy Premier may back even dreamt of in relation to the Senate. It is away conveniently to talk to the Minister for Edu- completely different from what the Government cation who has come up behind him, but he has said it would do; it is different in substance and in not answered my question. Does the Government effect. Interestingly, the Senate double dissolution claim a mandate for this Bill? procedure not only does not provide the alterna- tive of a referendum, but also Mr Bryce: I have not entered the discussion requires that after the double dissolution concerning a mandate. there must be a joint sitting of the two Houses to resolve a persisting conflict. Mr HASSELL: Does the Government claim a In other words, there still would be a role for the mandate for this Bill? Why does not the Deputy Legislative Council if that system were applied Leader of the Opposition answer the question? here to the legislation over which a deadlock has Mr Tonkin: I will answer the question as I am occurred. Under this Bill, however, there is no the Minister in charge of the Bill. We are not role for the Legislative Council because after a claiming a mandate for specific things, but a double dissolution, if the Assembly passed the Bill mandate for electoral reform. again, it would go to the Governor without Mr HASSELL: The Government is claiming a reference to the Council. mandate for electoral reform. No matter what it Mr Tonkin: Because the people have spoken. is, the Government has a mandate according to it. Mr HASSELL: Notwithstanding that the elec- What a stupid proposition. Members would not tion is held-if this procedure were to be adopted have thought that the Leader of the House would and if it should be opted for, because there is an have the barefaced effrontery to come up with option-the Council having been freshly and such stupidity. The Government says it has a totally elected at the double dissolution election, mandate for it. would then be excluded from having any part in In the Government's policy document it said- relation to the legislation. The Bill would simply An ALP Government would legislate to go to the Governor and become law without create for the Western Australian Parliament reference to the Council. a double dissolution system identical to that Mr Bryce: Hear, hear! in the Commonwealth Parliament. Mr HASSELL: Yes, that exclamation from the That is the Government's commitment-that is Deputy Premier is completely consistent with the what it said it would do. This Bill does not do Government's objective of the abolition of the that. It does not even begin to do that; it has Council. introduced something completely different. It M r Bryce: No, just democratisation. does not even do what the Government said it would do in May and June. Mr HASSELL: What does "democratisation" mean? Mr MacKinnon: The Minister is strangely Mr Bryce: It means that if a Government wins silent. a majority in the Legislative Assembly it should Mr HASSELL: It is a welcome change. be able to win a majority in both Houses without Mr Old: Do not stir him up. crooked, rigged boundaries. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]180 4803

Mr HASSELL: Just a moment. That is a very is what this Bill is about, and members opposite interesting point. The Government has presented know that. legislation to effect what it regards as the Mr Bryce: Do you think the people are more "democratisation" of the upper House. That is important than a funny old House? the legislation the Government wants. If this Bill were to be passed, and I am sure it will not be, the The SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy Leader of Government would then bring in that legislation the Opposition should address his remarks to the Chair. again and get it through by avoiding the Council; it would have a referendum on the Bill. Mr HASSELL: Not only do these people want to completely destroy the upper House, but also Mr Tonkin: Only if the people wanted it; you they will not let me have a fair say in talking are scared of them. about it. Mr HASSELL: I am taking up the point made Mr Bertram: You will not let the people have by the Deputy Premier. The Government would any say. You ignore them and send them to then have a House it regarded as democratic. If Siberia. that House delayed, refused to pass, or rejected another piece of the Government's legislation, Mr HASSELL: I come back to the point raised whatever it might be, this Bill would allow the by the Deputy Premier's interjection because it il- Government to opt for a double dissol- lustrates how far this Bill goes; it demonstrates ution-another election of both Houses. So there the central point of this legislation. This Bill would be a newly elected lower House and what would allow the Government to bypass the upper the Government regarded as a "democratised" House in relation to any legislation. The Govern- upper House. ment would take away its fundamental legislative role and remove from it the central rote of a Mr Tonkin: It would not be democratic under House of the Parliament; that is, its legislative the present system. role. Mr HASSELL: Then the Government would Let us assume the Bill goes through and the bring in the Bill which had been blocked and pass upper House is reduced so that it has no effective it in this House, and if the newly elected, democ- legislative role. If it stops a Budget the Budget ratised upper House rejected it, the Government goes through; if it stops a Bill, the Government would take it to the Government and get it passed can hold a referendum. without reference to the upper House. Mr Tonkin: That is terrible; letting the people Mr Bryce: Are you assuming the troglodytes have a say! over there are going to democratise that House? Mr HASSELL: That House would have no Mr HASSELL: The Government is saying the power. upper House should have no power. Mr Tonkin: The people may agree with the Mr Tonkin: We are saying its power should be Council and reject the Bill. diminished. Mr .Jamieson interjected. Mr HASSELL: The Council will not have any Mr HASSELL: The member for Welshpool power; the Government is drawing all its teeth in asked what was wrong with that. I believe in a bi- this legislation. That is the point I wanted to cameral system and he does not; I think it is bring out. The Deputy Premier knows he has been wrong for that reason. Cornered by his own logic. He is assuming the present situation prevails, but I am putting the ar- Mr Bryce: So long as it is crooked! gument that if we pass this Bill the Government Mr HASSELL: I believe in a bicamneral system, will get its way one way or another on changing in which there is an effective, legal check on the that House. Government of the day. Mr Bryce: Do you think the troglodytes up Mr Tonkin: Your Governments never had a there are going to agree to democratise it? check. Mr HASSELL: The Government will get its The SPEAKER: Order! I ask members to co- way on putting out a Bill to referendum to change operate by ceasing to interject so that the member the structure of the House. If the Bill went may get on with his speech and address his re- through the Government would have the upper marks to the Chair; otherwise we will be here all House exactly as it wants it. This Bill is all about night. the Government's doing to the upper House what Mr H-ASSELL: At the rate we are going we it wanted to do in the Bill rejected last week. That will be here all night. I do not mind if members 4804 4804[ASSEMBLY] opposite interject so long as they do it one at a Mrs Watkins: On this piece of legislation which time. is so important to the people of Western Aus- The SPEAKER: I do mind and I do not want tralia. the member to encourage them. Mr HASSELL: Why not on every piece of legislation? Why do we not have a referendum on Mr HASSELL: I did not know that was an of- the Argyle investment? fence against the Chair. Mr Bryce: I would love to. The SPEAKER: It is not, but it helps dispose of the business of the House if they are not en- Mr HASSELL: Why do we not have a referendum to ask the people whether they want couraged. $40 million of their money put into a mine when Mr HASSELL: It is not a bad thing if we have they must pay a new tax which will affect every a good debate because- one of them? That tax would not be necessary if Mr Bertram: It would be better if we got the the Government was not wasting money on a right decision. mining venture. Mr HASSELL: Yes, that is the member's atti- Several members interjected. tude; this Bill will be passed regardless of any- Mr HASSELL: Why do we not ask the people thing I say or anything said by any other member about that? Let them decide whether they want a on this side. 15 per cent increase in electricity charges. Let the people decide on a simple slogan for simple minds. Mr Bertram: We want the people to get some justice. Mr Bryce: You would not be able to rig it as you have the upper House. You would not be able Mr HASSELL: The truth is that all the to achieve a crooked result. Government's pious words about the Parliament mean nothing. All the talk about the upper House Mr HASSELL: The essence of this Bill is that being an effective upper House and a House of it deals with two situations. I make the caveat and I enter the caveat that in the time available I have Review means nothing. not been able to consider the Bill properly- Mr Bryce: It is a crooked upper House and you Mr Jamieson: That shows how simple you are. fellows made it crooked. Mr HASSELL: -and in detail. Mr Tonkin: Ninety years of unbroken control. Mr Jamieson: This has been on for ages. Several members interjected. Mr MacKinnon: This Bill has been in the Mr HASSELL: What the member does not House for less than a week. understand when he interjects once more, in de- Mr HASSELL: We first saw this Bill last Fiance of your ruling, Mr Speaker, is that, Thursday afternoon. The member should not be through the Parliament and a referendum, he will misleading. have a very solid base on which to make any Mr Jamieson: You knew exactly what was changes he likes to the upper House. coming ages ago. Mr Tonkin: Not what he likes; what the people Mr HASSELL: What the member for like. Welshpool says is not true because what is in this Mr HASSELL: Having achieved that, we Bill not only does not accord with what the would then have an upper House in the form Government said in its policy, but also does not which the member wants, but it would have no accord with what the Government said in June. power. This Bill has all the elements- The member should not tell us we can prepare for Mrs Watkins: Why are you so afraid of a Bill we have not seen and one which is different referendums? from what was said in the Government's official policy document and official announcement. Mr HASSELL: -of demolition, abolition, and dismemberment of the upper House. Several members interjected. Mr HASSELL: When the Acts Amendment Mrs Watkins: Let the people decide. (Constitution and Electoral) Bill came to this Mr HASSELL: There is only one answer to House and proper time was allowed for consider- that silly slogan-"Let the people de- ation of it, I had the Bill examined by some emi- cide"-which is running around the country; one nent lawyers who gave me advice on it. There has has simple slogans for simple minds. Does the been no possible opportunity for that to be done in member for Joondalup want to have a referendum relation to this Bill. I have already described one on every piece of legislation? circumstance in which there would be very serious [Thursday, 17 November 19831 480580 constitutional questions to consider in the event Mr Tonkin: That is the reason for the provision that this House resolved, after a deadlock had being in there. arisen, to have a double dissolution;, it is still left Mr HASSELL: I do not accept that. Even if I to the Governor to decide. That is an extraordi- did accept it, I do not think, if it is the reason, nary and unprecedented constitutional provision. that it would solve the serious problems which Mr Jamieson: What is wrong with that? could arise in relation to that provision. Mr Tonkin: The Governor-in-Executive-Coun- The Government is purporting to enhance the cii. power of the Legislative Assembly and yet the Mr HASSELL: The Minister would by now Government is saying that there should be a know what that indicates. The Governor-in- double dissolution after the Legislative Assembly Executive-Council comprises the Governor and has decided, and the Premier, just one man- two Cabinet Ministers. The decisions he makes in Mr Tonkin: We say the Cabinet. We have a council iare those advised by the Cabinet. What different system from yours. We are a the Leader of the House is saying is that we will democractic party. have a resolution of this House, pursuant to the Mr HASSELL: The member may say so, but Government's Bill, directing that there be a in reality the Premier still decides whether there double dissolution and then the Government, will be an election after the Parliament by resol- meaning the Premier who decides on elections, ution has directed in accordance with the Govern- will decide if there is to be an election. ment's Bill that there will be one. Let us assume I Mr Tonkin: It is normal for the Premier of the am wrong and it will then be the Cabinet which day to call an election early. decides. Even on the most generous interpretation Mr H-ASSELL: Quite so, and that is exactly of the Bill, it will be the Government which de- what happens in practice. Under the consti- cides whether to implement a resolution of this tutional double dissolution procedure in Canberra, Parliament. it is the Prime Minister who decides whether, A Government member: It is the Assembly, not when the constitutional conditions have been sat- Parliament. isfied, there is to be a double dissolution. There is no resolution of Parliament followed by a decision Several members interjected. of the Prime Minister. Mr HASSELL: It increases the power of the Mr Tonkin: You know the reason for that. If Assembly. It is even suggested that in the case of there is still room for negotiation and the Legis- the- lative Council decides not to have an election and Mr Tonkin: The Government is the Govern- to pass the Bill, you can call it off. menit because it has the majority in this place. Mr H-ASSELL: Did the Minister just think of Mr HASSELL: The Minister is assuming that that? the Government has the support of all the people Mr Tonkin: No, I did not. You give me credit who sit beside him. I understand the Govern- for being a fast thinker. ment's system to that extent. I am sure that that is true, because if it were not, they would be Mr HASSELL: I think it is the first time the thrown out. But it is not always the ease. Even in Minister has realised that this problem is con- Government ranks, some men on occasions have tained in the Bill. spoken out against the Government of the day. Mr Tonkin interjected. A Government member: Like the member for Mr HASSELL: The man who drafted the Bill Subiaco. and who wrote the speech is sitting in the gallery A Government member: What did you do with at the moment. him? Several members interjected. Mr Tonkin: You tossed him out. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Several members interjected. Mr HASSELL: H-e resigned. Mr Tonkin: He got out half-an-hour before- The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition will resume his seat. Several members interjected. Members will know that while I am in the Chair I The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am not will accept reasoned interjections to the speaker going to make many more attempts to obtain on his feet. I will not accept cross-Chamber order in the Assembly. The Deputy Leader of the interjections. When I call for order, I expect Opposition has the floor and he knows the re- members to come to order immediately. quirements of Standing Orders. He is to address 4806 4806[ASSEMBLY]

his remarks to the Chair and to ignore of Lords. The only comparison in terms of struc- interjections. tural requirements is with the House of Lords. Mr HASSELL: I am entitled to do so. I have But surprisingly, even for the Minister in charge tried to start on point 4 at the top of page 2 sev- of the Bill, the House of Lords was not mhentioned eral times, and on each occasion I have been di- by the Minister as not being an elected House. verted. I can only say to the Deputy Speaker that A Government member: It is about as demo- the Minister and his colleagues are paying me a cratic as the Legislative Council. great compliment because they must see me as a Mr HASSELL: None of the members of the real competitor to them. House of Lords is elected. Therefore its compari- [Laughter.] son with the Council is non-existent. In the other Mr HASSELL: They always stir up false States which the Minister cited as examples, no stories about what I am supposed to have done. system compares with that which the Minister wants to introduce in this place. The Opposition Several members interjected. has proposed for consideration a procedure to re- Mr HASSELL: The latest thing which the quire a double dissolution in the event of deadlock Deputy Premier has come up with is that I ran over supply or a Budget. We have proposed for some campaign against Dr Dadour. consideration- Government members: That is right. Mr Parker: You want to entrench the Kerr sol- Mr HASSELL: Let me say that that is wrong. ution in the Constitution? All the way through my parliamentary career, I Mr HASSELL: No, the Minister for Employ- have worked with the party of which I am a part. ment and Administrative Services does not really Several members interjected. understand the Kerr solution. The Kerr solution, Mr HASSELL: I will continue to do so. as he calls it, was the final resort when a Govern- ment, which could not obtain the support of Par- Several members interjected. liament. refused to resign. That has nothing to do Mr HASSELL: Is there another one? with the situation we are dealing with here. Several members interjected. A Government member: That is not right, be- Mr HASSELL: I heard from the Labor Party cause the Senate passed the Supply Bill before ac- that I was responsible for the Industrial Arbi- tion was taken. tration Act. Now I am supposed to have run a Mr HASSELL: No, it did not. campaign against Dr Dadour. The Government A Government member: It had to. will have to stop inventing these stories. The Government is attributing to me more power than An Opposition member: You have been I ever imagined I had. watching television. A Government member: The longer you talk, Several members interjected. the better the member for Gascoyne looks in the Mr HASSELL: The Senate passed the Supply leadership stakes. Bill after- Mr HASSELL: Now we have another little Mr Jamieson: It did not. game. Mr HASSELL: -the Government had been A Government member: Just ignore them. dismissed on the basis of an undertaking from Mr Mr HASSELL: I am enjoying them. Fraser that he would be able to provide supply. A Government member: I know you are. Mr Jamieson: No, you should correct your Mr HASSELL: The interjections are so silly times. that they cannot be true. If I could venture back Mr Tonkin: Mr Fraser was not even a member to the Bill, I would like to start again on point 4 of the Senate. on the top of page 2 of my notes. The Bill essen- Mr HASSELL: The proclamation read on the tially deals with two situations. It deals with the steps of Parliament House was a proclamation to deadlock in relation to a Budget or a Supply Bill. dissolve the Parliament. That was not the dis- The Bill proposes to take away the power of the missal. The dismissal took place earlier that Legislative Council to block one of those Bills. In morning. doing so, it proposes substantially to diminish the IMr Jamieson: That could not take place until strength of the bicameral system. It is interesting they got supply. to note that the Minister responsible for introducing this provision has drawn on, for com- Mr HASSELL: Mr Whitlam was dismissed. parison, other States in Australia and the House Several members interjected. [Thursday. 17 November 1983J180 4807

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I want to re- account in respect of its expenditure and its mind members that they are not in a lounge room. taxation which is the essence of the Budget. This is the Assembly and I have asked the Deputy The second part of our proposal put forward for Leader of the Opposition on several occasions to consideration was that, in the event of the Coun- address the Chair. cil's rejecting a Budget or supply, there would be Mr HASSE~LL: I have to respond to this ex- a double dissolution immediately which would tent. I am not showing any disrespect for the send all the members of the Council and the As- Chair, but I have endeavoured to present my sembly to the people. speech and 1 am responding to interjections from The third part of our proposal was to provide a Government members. I cannot be blamed when mechanism to cover the cost of Government ser- they interject. That is fair game. I cannot ignore vices pending the conduct and completion of the them. They are attacking me over what I am say- election, the swearing in of the new Government, ing. 1 have to respond. There is a Whip over and the calling together of the new Parliament. there and he can tell them to shut up, or some- body else could. The Premier could engage in I remind members of the Government that if some private dressing down. they study the history of Parliament, and in par- ticular the period from 1066 onwards in Britain Several members interjected. where Parliament as we know it began, even if it Mr HASSELL: May I return to the proposal? is not precisely the same Westminster system A Government member: You keep going back. everywhere- Mr HASSELL: I ha've to keep going back be- Mr .Jamieson: 1066 is going back to the days of cause I am continually interrupted. William the Conqueror. Mr Tonkin: It is natural for a reactionary to go Mr HASSELL: That is when the regime went back all the time. into place and from which the beginnings of Par- Mr HASSELL: I am happy to discuss with the liament emerged later. It did not begin in 1066. member for Welshpool- Mr Jamieson: You are carrying it a bit far A Government member: You should check your there! facts and figures. Mr HASSIELL: It took a very long time. It Mr HASSELL: I am happy to. The member is took about 900 years. historically wrong. Mr Jamieson: William the Conqueror did not Several members interjected. know much about Parliament. Mr HASSELL: I know the proclamation came Mr H-ASSELL: That is true, he did not; but, of after supply was passed, but it did not affect the course, when the King wanted money to run the dismissal; the Governor General did that when he State- handed Whitlam a letter at Yarralumla at ap- Mr Jamieson: He took it! proximately I p.m. on I1I November 1975. That Mr HASSELL: Well, he did not take it, be- was the dismissal handed down by the Governor cause he was not ever absolute. He could not just General who did that after an assurance from Mr take. He had to get- Fraser that Mr Fraser would get supply. Mr Pearce: Is this a fairy story? Mr Tonkin: Mr Fraser was not a member of the Senate, so so much for the House of Review. Mr HASSELL: -the lords of the court, the landlords-the people who owned the land-to Mr Jamieson: He did not have the numbers. He grant him supply; that is, to grant him money to could not assure supply. fight his wars and run his Government. He called Mr HIASSELL: lHe did, and he got it. them together to get them to agree to grant Mr Mvclver: Unfortunately, yes. money. That was the beginning of Parliament-it Mr HASSELL: The proposal that we put for- was about money-the granting of money to the ward for consideration to deal with a deadlock Government, the Government then being the over supply or a Budget was this: Under our pro- King. That is what Parliament has always been posal the Legislative Council would retain its about. It has been about the granting of power to reject the Budget. That is an essential money-the granting of supply-to a Government power if the Council is to have a meaningful role and yet this Bill seeks to remove that power from as part of the Parliament. It is. of course, basic to Parliament and to give it to one part of the Parlia- the constitutional system that Parliament-not ment, that is, the Assembly. meaning one House, but Parliament-should have Mr Jamieson: It is like that in the House of the right and the power to call a Government to Commons. 4808 4808lIASSEM BLY]

Mr HASSELL: It is like that because the Mr D. L. Smith: Do you say that domocracy is upper House in Britain is not elected and far the all about money? very reason that the House of Commons histori- Mr HASSELL: I did not say that at all. cally came into existence; namely, because the Mr D. L. Smith: My understanding of Parlia- people wanted to have a say. Therefore, the ment is that it is primarily about democracy. House of Commons came to dominate the Parlia- ment and the lords in their power. Mr MacKinnon: Could you give us your defl- nition of democracy? However, that situation does not apply here in case members have not noticed. All of the mem- Mr D. L. Smith: Democracy is the method of hers of the upper House under our system are governing the people-participation in Govern- elected. ment. Mr Jamieson: Under a very crooked system. Mr HASSELL: When we get to that level of interjection I am glad to address my remarks ex- Mr HASSELL: The member may well say clusively to you, Sir, and ignore what has been that, but we disagree. Let us say the Government said. got its way and substituted its crooked system for the system we have now. Mr Wilson: Yes, for a good reason: You can't answer the interjections. Mr Jamieson: I wish you would talk to the Speaker. He keeps looking at me! Mr O'Connor: Like your questions. The SPEAKER: Order! I am not sure who is Mr HASSELL: I shall return to the central making the speech. point which cannot be ignored by Government members; that is, the essence of Parliament has Mr Barnett: The court jester. always been about the granting of supply, the ap- Mr Pearce: Incidentally that is a very proval of Budgets, and the burden placed on inaccurate history of Parliament. people by way of taxation. That was the begin- Mr Tonkin: I'll say. ning of Parliament and it is still a very important Mr Pearce: Do you remember Witenagemot? part of the parliamentary process. Mr HASSELL: Vaguely. Of course, Parliament has grown to embrace many other things and it has changed its form Mr Pearce: Check your history. and become the primary source of law in the com- Mr HASSELL: The history spread over 900 munity. It has also become, and is seen to be, an years. I hope members do not think that in two instrument of social justice and many other minutes 1 am able to give a history of Parliament. things, but it retains its essential obligation to ac- Mr Pearce: It spread over more than 900 years. count to the people for the revenue which is raised Mr HASSELL: The essential point that arises by way of taxation and for the expenditure of that out of it, however short may be my history- revenue not by Parliament, but by the Govern- ment. Mr Pearce: And inaccurate. It is the right, the duty, and the role of Parlia- Mr HASSELL: It is not inaccurate. It is in- ment to sit in judgment on a Government in re- complete; it is not inaccurate. The essential point the is valid. Parliament has always been about the lation to its Budget and Parliament includes Legislative Council. That basic proposition cannot granting of supply to the Government. Parliament was never about sex discrimination legislation or be ignored. anything like that. Through this Bill, the Government is seeking to totally exclude the Legislative Council from con- Mr Tonkin: Society evolves. Don't live in the past. This Parliament has not evolved and the sideration of any taxation or budgetary measure and also to totally exclude its power. No-one Westminster system has! could seriously suggest that a minor capacity to Mr HASSELL: Where is the Premier? The delay is a real power. Leader of the House is raving again. In relation to all other deadlocks, the Govern- Mr Court: Keep him off radio! ment proposes a mechanism under which the Mr HASSELL: The essence of this is that Par- Legislative Assembly can choose whether there liament was always about the granting of supply. shall be a referendum on a particular -Bill or What the Government's Bill seeks to do in re- whether there shall be a double dissolution of Par- lation to taxation, appropriation, or supply, is to liament in the event of repeated rejections of remove the power from Parliament. as Parlia- Government legislation. However, as I have ment, and give it to one House of Parliament. already explained, the Legislative Assembly will [Thursday, 17 November 1983])80 4809 not make the final decision if there is to be a Government,-subject to the final Cabinet double dissolution-the Government will. approval .... We will not see the power of Parliament being No reference is made to parliamentary approval! enhanced; we will see the power of the Executive To continue- being enhanced. The legislative machinery pro- . . . to reach agreement with a reasonable posed by the Bill is complex and could lead to dis- understanding that the agreement can be putes. honoured through legislative action. The More importantly, what the Government is emerging inclination of the Legislative Coun- seeking to do through this Bill is to allow the Par- cil to use its constitutional but excessive liament to operate as a unicameral system. Under powers could be to the detriment of the State this system, the Legislative Council can be and the Government. bypassed on any occasion the Government wants to bypass it. Of course, as I said at the outset, the Members ought to consider that statement very real reason for this provision is to allow the carefully indeed, because what the Minister is Government to achieve what it sought to achieve saying is that the Government ought to be able to in the legislation rejected only last week by the do deals in relation to Western Australia's Legislative Council. Needless to say, it is a interests and be assured that those deals will be blatant and patent attempt at a second go and it endorsed by Parliament, regardless of how good will not have our support. or bad they are. He is saying, " It should be poss- Mr D, L. Smith: We know you would never ible for the Government, subject to final Cabinet support democracy. approval, to reach agreement with a reasonable understanding that the agreement can be Mr Court: You live in a democracy. honoured through legislative action". Again, Mr D. L. Smith: A democracy where the Labor never mind parliamentary approval. There is Party has never received the majority in the upper tremendous significance in what the Minister is House, and where one party will always have the putting forward in that proposition, and I can give say on money Bills and all others. two examples of situations which illustrate that Mr HASSELL: 1 wonder why the member for significance. Mitchell is so depressed. Why is it that he believes The Federal Parliament is this very day con- his party can never win? Why does he think it will sidering a number of Bills providing for consti- never be able to get enough support to win? What tutional alterations. One of those constitutional a very depressed man he is. alterations relates to the proposed power for the Mr Tonkin: Ninety years of history suggests Commonwealth and the States to exchange that. powers; in other words, it relates to a proposal Several members interjected. that the Commonwealth should be able to confer The SPEAKER: Order! some of its powers on this Parliament and that Mr HASSELL: It is not only that this legis- this Parliament should be able to confer some of lation is about the Government's having a means its powers on the Commonwealth Parliament. to achieve its rejected end-namely, the adoption That is very interesting in itself because the Com- of the provisions of the Acts Amendment monwealth Labor Party is not the least bit con- (Constitution and Electoral) Bill-but there is cerned about ensuring that the approval for those also a very significant statement in the Minister's powers being transferred is subject to the ap- second reading speech which relates to two things proval of the people. Once this provision goes into on the horizon, two matters which concern me a the Constitution, the Commonwealth will be able great deal. I will quote the extraordinary prop- to give away its powers or accept powers from the osition the Minister put forwvard as justification States without any referendum being held. The for this Bill- call, "Let the people decide" will not be applying The Legislative Council is an upper House in that situation. The people will be left out in the in a Westminster style system of responsible cold even though the Constitution provides pres- Government and as such, the Government ently that constitutional change should be ef- can and ought to be responsible only to one fected through a referendum, Of course, that has master-the Assembly. proved difficult for centralist Commonwealth Being a part of Federation imposes ad- Governments of all political colours and they ditional responsibilities and a State Govern- want to find a way round it. ment must act as the agent and negotiator. Mr D. L. Smith: Why are you so frightened of In this process it should be possible for the putting this legislation to a referendum? 4810 4810[ASSEMBLY]

Mr HASSELL: The essential point I am mak- ative. The question is receiving bipartisan support, ing is that the Minister is saying in his second and the answer is likely to be in the affirmative. reading speech that the State Government ought Mr Brian Burke: It probably will be. to be able to do a deal with the Commonwealth to Mr HASSELL: That will not have my support. transfer more powers to the Commonwealth if the One of the fundamental problems of our Federal Commonwealth Constitution is amended as pro- system is that the Federal Constitution has been posed, and to be sure that Parliament wil endorse changed by the effects of Government and High such a deal. Court decisions, without following the consti- Mr Brian Burke: What did you say about the tutional process. That is a different issue. State Government's supporting a particular point Mr Brian Burke: That may be true, but- of view? Mr HASSELL: It is a much bigger subject Mr HASSELL: I said that what the Minister is than we can discuss today. saying is that if the Government reaches agree- Mr Brian Burke: -there are problems with ments with the Commonwealth for the transfer having a written Constitution. of the State's powers to the Commonwealth, the Government ought to be able to do that with the Mr HASSELL: There are indeed. In this confidence that it will receive parliamentary ap- session of Parliament this Government has proval. He gives that as a reason for enacting introduced legislation of over 200 pages to add to legislation which allows the Assembly to bypass our written Constitution, and that course is one of the Council to get the Government's legislation the main causes of the complaints we have made. through. The Government has brought in major legislation without an explanatory memorandum and without Mr Tonkin: Only if the people agree. You keep advice to the Parliament about all the com- leaving that out. plexities of that legislation. In the case of this Mr HASSELL: Wait a minute; that is not the Bill we have not had time to consider the issues case at all. There is no question of a referendum, properly and take advice. so the Minister does not understand what I am Mr Brian Burke: We have as a Government saying and it would appear he does not under- provided more assistance in terms of information stand what he has said himself. The Common- and access to departments and information than wealth Parliament is proposing that the Common- ever our predecessors did, with perhaps the de- wealth Constitution be amended so there can be a veloping exception in the last year of the previous transfer of power between the States and the Government's period in office. We have told you Commonwealth without any referendum to before that if you play the game fair you can have amend the Commonwealth Constitution and with- access to almost anything you want, but the truth out any referendum to amend the State Consti- is that when you were in Government, especially tution. when Sir Charles Court was Premier, civil ser- What the Minister has said in his speech is that vants were not even allowed to talk to the Oppo- if he goes over to Mr Hawke and does a deal with sition. him, for example, to transfer to the Common- Mr Tonkin: That's right. They were forbidden wealth, the power to collect a resources rental tax to talk to me. or something of that nature, the Minister ought to Mr HASSELL: I would like to debate that be able to be assured that action will receive the topic properly because I happen to know that approval of this Parliament, and to make sure he some of the bodies and instrumentalities around can be assured of that he needs this deadlock this State, including port authorities and hospi- breaking mechanism. tals, have been told they are not allowed to talk to Mr Brian Burke: Hang on a second, you can't US. concede powers unless all States agree. Mr Grill: That's a lie. Mr HASSELL: Oh, yes, that can be done Mr Tonkin: What explanatory memorandum under the constitutional amendment proposed; did you provide when you changed the Consti- there can be onc-off deals between the Common- tution. wealth and the State. Mr Grill: What you said is simply untrue. Mr Brian Burke: I am sorry, I am talking about the present. Withdrawal of Remark Mr HASSELL: I am talking about the situ- The SPEAKER: Order! There is one word ation if the Federal referendum is in the affirm- which I remind the House I regard as offensive, [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 481181 and that is the word used by the Minister for was to allow proper time for the debate of this Transport. I hope he will take the appropriate ac- measure. tion to withdraw his remark. We had seven days to consider it. We received Mr Rushton: I believe he should withdraw his a message last Tuesday that it would be debated remark. today, and clearly I have had no opportunity to Mr Tonkin: The Speaker just said that. obtain any advice on it. It is a complex Bill, and as I said in reference to the Acts Amendment Mr Davies: Pimp! (Constitution and Electoral) Bill, I have to seek Mr GRILL: I immediately altered the word to legal advice. As the Premier would know from his ,untrue" experience in Opposition that advice is usually Mr Clarko: That's not a withdrawal. sought from volunteers, and it is not always Mr Rushton: Withdraw it or else. available when it is wanted. These people cannot be expected at a moment's notice to drop what Mr Brian Burke: Can I make one other point they are doing in order to help the Opposition on that other issue- with its work. In the whole context of this Bill the Mr Rushton: What about your Minister defy- Government has been grossly unreasonable, and ing the Speaker and not withdrawing the word? no amount of sweet talk by the Premier will alter The SPEAKER: Order! I call the Deputy that fact. Leader of the Opposition. I still want to get back to the point I was mak- Mr HASSELL: As I understand the Standing ing about the Minister's statements at page 29 of Orders of the House, they require an uncon- his prepared second reading speech. Not only does ditional withdrawal of words. it contain grave implications in relation to the proposed exchange of powers between the Com- Mr Rushton: Defying the Chair. monwealth and the State, but also it contains grave implications in relation to the constitutional Debate Resumed settlement. I know full well that negotiations are Mr Tonkin: What memorandum did you gi ve to going on around Australia at this time between us when you changed the Constitution? You gave the States and the Commonwealth over a consti- none at all. tutional settlement relating to the Australian Mr O'Connor: On the industrial arbitration States and their relationships with the British legislation I gave you a memorandum setting out Parliament, Government and Crown. They relate the detail. also to the Australianisation, if one can use that Mr Brian Burke: I made the point about the term, of the Commonwealth Constitution. time when you were here. Even if what the Depu- Mr Davies: I think everyone knows that. There ty Leader of the Opposition says is true, it is a is no secret about it. standard set by his predecessors and he knows Mr HASSELL: An attempt is being made to that. If you are prepared to play fair we will do all reach a constitutional settlement. Some very deli- these things. cate and difficult aspects of that settlement relate Mr HASSELL: Those words sound nice, but to the right of the States to have direct access to they do not stand up to the facts. We have pre- the monarch, who after all is the head of State in viously had this argument across the Chamber. Western Australia: to the question of the appoint- The member for Narrogin. the member for ment of the Governor, whether it be on the advice Florcat, the Lcader of the Opposition, and I have of this State Cabinet or of the Commonwealth been able to give examples of our providing ma- Parliament-it is what the people in Canberra terial and assistance to the Opposition when we want-and to the question of advice over other were in Government. What this Premier says matters. I understand the State Government has simply is not accurate. However, that is beside the taken a Airm and proper stance in support of the point because we are not talking about some in- constitutional independence of Western Australia. significant piece of legislation: we are talking The essence of what should be done is that we about a significant constitutional Bill, to which ensure we maintain the legal basis of our Consti- the Government has provided no explanatory tution in this State. Under no circumstances memorandum cither from the Solicitor General or should we allow it to become subject to the whims the Crown Law Department. We have before us a of the Commonwealth Parliament, allow our Bill drafted substantially, or at least put together Governor to become a subsidiary of the Governor by an adviser who has no qualifications in consti- General, or his appointment to be made by the tutional law. The least that should have been done Queen on the advice of the Governor General, 4812 4812[ASSEMBLY] which would mean on the advice of the Common- Mr Jamieson: What do you mean by "cross- wealth Government. I understand, and I hope I party acceptance"? am right, that this State Government and its Mr HASSELL: The Government did that Premier have been prepared to stand up with again. It should remember that the substantial other States and say, "We will not hand over to changes which we initiated in 1963 were adopted Canberra these essential elements of our govern- with the support of all sides. mental structure. We will not allow the centralists Mr Jamieson: You were under pressure. What in Canberra"- they exist right throughout the are you talking about? You were not even here. Canberra system on all sides of the political spec- You were certainly under pressure. trum--to take over the ultimate control of West- ern Australia's Constitution and, therefore, its Mr HASSELL: Did the Labor members accept structure". those changes? Mr Jamieson: Of course they did. What the Minister was speaking about on page 29 of his notes relates directly to what happens if, Mr Gordon Hill: They had no alternative. by one means or another, an unsatisfactory consti- Mr HASSELL: Were they in Opposition? tutional obligation is imposed on the State Mr Jamieson: They were in Opposition and it Government. If that were to occur, I hope this was our platform. What are you talking about? Parliament would reject it. I know the lower Are you suggesting we would not accept our House would not reject it if it were brought here platform? You are talking a lot of nonsense. by the Government, but the upper House might. Mr HASSELL: In other words, the member for Despite all the negotiations that had taken place, Welshpool has made for me the very point that I that might be necessary, if the Government were am trying to get across to him and his colleagues. to give away the essence of our Constitution system. I am hoping it will not. I believe it is not Mr Jamieson: But you have got no platform on it; so what could we do? doing so. Mr H-ASSELL: We made very substantial The point is that the Minister has said to Par- c hanges after a period of very intense nego- liament that as justification for this Bill, the tiations- Government of the day should know that it can get through Parliament any deal it does with Mr Jamieson: No. another Government. That is no justification at Mr HASSELL:-behind the scenes, with the all. A great deal of significance is embodied in support of both sides of Parliament. what the Government has said in relation to that Mr Jamieson: That is incorrect. matter, and the implications of just that one point Mr HASSELL: In this case, the Government deserve more consideration than one short week. has made no attempt- I bring my remarks to a conclusion by making Mr Jamieson: What you are saying is incorrect, the following points of a general nature about the and you know it. Government's approach to legislative reform. The Government has been blunt, unfair, and un- Mr HASSELL: -to find any basis of consen- sus whatsoever. realistic. It has assumed that because it tempor- arily has the majority in one of the two Houses of Mr Jamieson: You would say anything when Parliament. it is entitled fundamentally to you have not got an argument. restructure the parliamentary and electoral Mr HASSELL: The Government has ap- system. The Opposition has already accepted proached this matter in a back-to-front way. In- significant changes to the electoral system and stead of being practical and considering the areas will accept the referendum legislation, I hope, that might be worked at togethr-the same prin- with some necessary and desirable changes. ciples have worked at the Constitutional Conven- The Opposition will not accept, by whatever tion on the Commonwealth Constitution-the Government has simply adopted an ideological. bludgeoning tactics the Government adopts, fundamental restructuring of Parliament and the philosophical stance- parliamentary process unless some agreement rep- Mr Jamieson: Like you people did at the last resenting more than a bare majority is reached. convention. The Government has approached this whole mat- Mr H-ASSELL: -and has moved forward on ter in a back-to-front way; it has applied its ideol- the basis of presenting to Parliament four or ive ogy and its philosophy and it has avoided any Bills which represent its position. It said to Parlia- pragmatic attempt to find out what would have ment, "Take it or leave it". In relation to two of general and cross-party acceptance. those Bills, we have taken it, because we have ac- [Thursday, 17 November 1983]181 4813 cepted that they contain elements which can legit- tion. It is virtually as though the Council domi- imately be adopted. nates. With the proposals in the Bill before the Mr Jamieson: You could have brought in one House it would reverse the role and the Assembly yourself. would dominate the Council. The rererendum provisions would make it so that the Council Mr HASSELL: However, in relation to one of could be bypassed at will. those Bills, we have chosen to leave it. At thc end of the day we will probably also leave this Bill. All members will agree that as representatives We reject the Sill. It represents the Govern- we have some opportunity to study in detail issues ment's failure to win support in an area of such before the House. Many of them are complex and vital importance; that is, that broad consensus is a it would be impossible to outline these provisions precondition for action. to the public and expect the puhlic to cast a reasoned vote on them. It becomes almost imposs- Opposition members: Hear, hear! ible to truly ascertain the will of the people by MR STEPHENS (Stirling) [12.37 p.m.]: The conducting a referendum. It is essential that we National Party has fairly strong views on this look for a compromise. The National Party would matter. I endorse the comment about the limited have liked that area to have been explored. time that has been given to us in which to study Parliament has degenerated more or less to a the Leader of the House this Bill, It is all right for dictatorship. The Deputy Leader of the Oppo- or some other member by way of interjection to sition referred to the fact that the members of the say that that is not so, but he should adopt the Labor Party would do as they were told and vote principle that there may be many areas of dis- for this legislation. I believe that to be true and I agreement or areas in which we feel believe also improvements could be made. We have had one that occurred when the Liberal Party was in Government and its members were ex- week only in which to consider this Bill, bearing pected to do as Cabinet said. in mind that we had to go through legislation an inch thick from cover to cover. That indicates how Mr Bertram: In this case we do as we wish; difficult it is for our members to have any oppor- there is no compulsion. tuhity to study fully legislation and to draft Mr STEPHENS: I would have to have a confi- amendments which are more in line with our poli- dential comment from each member to be able to cies. agree with that. It is not only my opinion that Mr O'Connor: You have also got 30 or 40 other Parliament has degenerated to a dictatorship: I Bills to consider. would like to quote from a comment made by Sir Mr STEPHENS: That is true. I acknowledge Mark Oliphant who was at one time the Governor the services given to private members by the pri- of South Australia. He said- vate members' parliamentary draftsman. He has Clem Lloyd has shown, in the 'National exceedingly limited time in which to help us. and Times' recently, that in truth we are now when he is working on behalf of one side of the governed by an elective dictatorship at Fed- House. it is virtually an impossibility to obtain his eral Level- assistance. Given more time, the National Party He added that he believed the same applied to would, no doubt, have brought in substantial that State , and I understand he was referring to amendments to this Bill and perhaps the result South Australia. To continue- would have been a compromise- My simpler assessment was that the rigor- Mr Carr: That would have surprised us. ous discipline, within the two parties which Mr STEPHENS: -acceptable to both sides of mattered in our system- the House. However, the time Factor has made He obviously had not heard of the National Party that absolutely impossible. For that reason,' we at that stage. To continue- will oppose the legislation at its second reading because in the time that we have had at our dis- -could mean the end of democracy in this posal we have not been able to draft or have country. We elect a man because we feel that drafted the amendments that we would like to he will represent us best in Parliament but bring before the House for its consideration. The once he's in Parliament he does not represent current situation is that the Legislative Council us any more at all. He represents only his can virtually dominate the Legislative Assembly. party and like an obedient sheep he wanders It has the power to reject absolutely any of the into the division lobby to which his party is considerations of this House including a money directed by the whip whenever it is necessary. Bill. It can cause the Assembly to go to an elec- That is not democracy. 4814 4814[ASSEMBLY]

I would like to bear that out: All members in this it would come down to the fact that 23 members House will know that since the inception of the of the Labor Party can make a decision which is National Party we have made our judgments on binding on all members of the Labor Party and the issues and at times we have supported the Lib- the proposal then decided upon goes to the Parlia- eral Government. We have opposed the Liberal ment. In effect it means 23 members are dictating Government on some occasions, but always we to 91 members. I cannot suggest that is represen- have made our judgments on the individual issues. tative democracy. I make a plea that members We do not support the Labor Party and we do not give a little more consideration to the interests support the Liberal Party. and wishes of the electors they represent. Mr Thompson: How often have the two of you Mr Jamieson: It is the decision of the majority, gone in different directions? surely. Mr STEPHENS: Within the party, not very Mr STEPHENS: What I am saying is: It is not often, so there is party unity. Parliament making decisions; it is the majority of Mr Brian Burke: I can never remember your the party which then goes along and forces Parlia- exercising that right. ment to accept that information. Mr STEPHENS: If the Premier refers to Mr Jamieson: I cannot see how you can carry Hansard, I think he will find it has happened at out the Parliament procedure without a system of least twice. majority determination. Mr Brian Burke: During the time of the re- Mr STEPHENS: I suggest the member should vamped party? study the United States system. The majority rules there, but it is not blind allegiance to a party Mr STEPHENS: I do not think it has occurred that puts it in power. We have a different system this session of Parliament, but it did occur during and it is difficult to compare things which are not the life of the previous one. alike. At the last election, as part of the propaganda Let us go back to the English system. Members brought out against us. the Liberal Party tried to are wont to say that we are operating under the use statistics to imply that because we did not Westminster system, but we have deviated con- vote with them blindly we were obviously social- siderably from it. In the English Parliament there ists. I do not think its members believed that, but is much more cross voting on divisions than there the party thought it would gain political advan- tage by smearing us on a socialist tag. All we had is in this place or in any other Australian Parlia- ment.* That is the point I am trying to make. done was to stand up and make decisions in the Members should come to Parliament to represent interests of our electors. their electorates. I think the prestige of this Parliament would be The National Party definitely considerably enhanced if the public saw that sees a need for reform. As a matter of fact, on 22 August members represented their electorates. After all, 1979-and I refer members to page 2101 of the original concept of Parliament was that the Hansard-I actually moved for a Select Com- members were elected and the Parliament elected mittee to inquire into and report on various mat- its Cabinet which became the executive and car- ters. I will not weary the House with the whole of ried out the will or Parliament. We all know today that motion, but part (2) stated- that once the Cabinet is elected Parliament carries out the will of that Cabinet, and to that (2) Whether there is a need for amendments extent I think Parliament has degenerated. We to the Constitution- should return to a more representative basis in (a) to provide for the better settling of Parliament. By doing so our prestige would be en- deadlocks between the two Houses hanced. of Parliament; The Government claims it has a mandate, but (b) to place any restrictions or prohib- when we analyse the figures of representation in itions upon the power of the Legis- the two Houses we realise that of the 91 mem- lative Council to defeat financial bers. 46 are Labor members. measures such as bills, imposing The DEPUTY SPEAKER; Order! Would those taxation or appropriating revenue: members having a meeting right next door to the (c) to provide for the Legislative As- Hansard reportcr please be quiet! sembly to be elected for a period Mr STEPHENS: No doubt those 46 members other than three years. of the Labor Party would have a chairman who The Liberal Party, which was in power at the has a casting and a deliberative vote. In any case, time, did not support that concept. It is [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 481581 interesting to note that in rejecting my motion the opportunity to go to the people on the issue which then member for East Melville, Sir Desmond caused the double dissolution. O'Neil, referred to the powers of the Legislative Recently we had a situation in the Federal Par- Council. He said- liament where the double dissolution mechanism However that may be, I believe members was used and then, about 14 months later, the will accept there needs to be very strong evi- Prime Minister went to the Governor and sought dence that the system should be varied before an election. That election was fought, but at no we attempt to look for something which stage during the campaign was the issue which might prove to be worse. I cannot recall a caused the double dissolution ever mentioned. committee of managers being formed over That was a sales tax issue. the last two or three years; so they do not If a double dissolution is called an election occur frequently. I do not know whether the should take place within a limited period and the system we have can be replaced by a better National Party's attitude is that the period should one. be no more than three months. That was only in 1979. I was very pleased to hear If the policy of the National Party was given the Deputy Leader of the Opposition say that the detailed consideration it would be found that it Liberal Party is prepared to accept some reform. makes a reasonable compromise between the bal- It indicates that since 1979 the Liberal Party has ance of powers in the Council and the Assembly at least had a small change of heart. It is a pity and it would give the Government an opportunity that the Liberal Party did not support my motion to decide at an election on any special issue. After for a Select Committee in 1979. Such a com- an election there should be a joint sitting of the mittee would have included all members of the Houses and the matter which resulted in an elec- tion should be resolved. House and allowed a contribution from the pub- lic. We may have come up with a compromise We are opposed to the referendum proposed in which would have been acceptable. If that had this Bill because it bypasses the Council and happened, we would not be debating that issue would render it redundant. If we had been given now. more time, we may have been able to seek amend- ments to make the legislation worthwhile, but be- Mr Crane: You must have been a step off cause of the time factor and for the reasons I have course. mentioned, we oppose the legislation. Mr STEPHENS: Since the National Party has MR O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Leader of the been around, it has tended to lead while the Lib- Opposition) [12.57 p.m.]: This Bill was eral Party followed. We are conservatively orien- introduced on Thursday last week and in moving tated. We do not propose to change so it would the adjournment, I requested that the debate be naturally follow- adjourned for two weeks. I believe that that re- Mr H-assell: You know that there is an old say- quest was not unreasonable bearing in mind the ing in the electorate that if all fails, call for Matt magnitude of the Bills coming through this House Stephens. and the importance of this Bill to the Government and to the Opposition. Mr STEPHENS: Is there? Mr Pearce: Did you ask the Premier in advance Mr Hassell: Yes. for an adjournment of two weeks? Mr STEPHENS: That is the reason the Liberal Mr O'CONNOR: No. Party's campaign over the last four or five elec- Mr Pearce: You popped up in this place and tions has been so unsuccessful. asked for a two-week adjournment? The National Party does support the need for Mr O'CONNOR: It was a reasonable request. reform. It believes that if the upper House has the power to reject money Bills the Government has a Mr Pearce: Why didn't you make the request right to call for a double dissolution. The personally to the Premier? National Party believes that if the upper House Mr O'CONNOR: If the member casts his mind rejects a Bill twice, there should be a mechanism back, he will recall that were many times when which gives the Government an opportunity to the Government was in Opposition that members call a double dissolution. However, such a move made similar requests which were granted. should be taken within a specified period. I would I do not want to be pedantic in any way, but I suggest that the period be no more than three think it was reasonable to have a two-week ad- months in order that the public might be aware of journment period to allow members to consider the issue and the political parties might have the the Bill. 4816 4816[ASSE MBLYJ

Mr Pearce: The Premier may well have granted Opposition party has had no check upon its that request if you had asked him. I made a sirni- powers. A Liberal Premier only had to have a Jar request once and Sir Charles Court, when he thought to know it would be translated into law was Premier, said that 1 could not do that. by both Houses of a submissive Parliament. That Mr O'CONNOR: I did attempt to ask the is the reality of the situation. The Deputy Leader Premier, but he was out of his seat at the time the of the Opposition wants control or a cheek or a Minister presenting the second reading speech re- Labor Government only. There was no check at sumed his seat, I tried to catch the Premier's eye all upon the Liberal Government and the Figures to ask the question, but I was unsuccessful. There- show this to be so. fore, when I adjourned the debate, I asked for a The Deputy Leader of the Opposition says that two-week adjournment. I do not think that the re- we would have a majority if the people wanted to quest was unreasonable; it was the first such re- give us one. For 90 years the Conservatives have quest we had made during this session. The had control of the upper House and he wants that session has a further three to five weeks to run situation to continue. and, in view of that fact, I did not think it was an Mr Mensaros: We do not want the Government unreasonable request, especially when so many to perpetuate its power. Bills are on the Notice Paper. Together with the measures yet to be introduced, a total of 55 Bills Mr TONKIN: It is not a question of will need to be considered. We will not finish the perpetuating our power; it is a question of al- session in two weeks and the adjournment re- lowing the people to select the party they want, of quested would have given the Opposition time to whichever complexion. We believe they should be peruse the Bill to ascertain whether there were able to have a Labor-dominated Legislative Coun- any flaws in it, bearing in mind that there are at cil if they so wish. The Opposition has prevented least a dozen Bills to examine. As the Minister that from happening. At the last election, the would be fully aware, one word could make all the Government received 51.3 per cent of the vote difference and we could miss that one word. and for its pains achieved only seven seats. The Sitting suspended from 1.0010o 2.15 p.m. Liberal Party, which was thrashed at the election, obtained only 45.7 per cent of the vote which gave MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for it nine seats. Parliamentary and Electoral Reform) [2.16 p.m.1: One thing to come out of this debate, as with pre- Mr Clarko: That comment is irrelevant and you vious debates, is that the Opposition is desperately know it. You could lose by one vote in every seat afraid of the people. It is desperately afraid that and get 49.9 per cent of the vote and get no seats this will go to a referendum and the people might at all. agree with the Government. On the other hand, Several members interjected. the Government is prepared to let the people have The SPEAKER: Order! their say. If they reject the question put at the Mr TONKIN: The member for Karrinyup referendum, the Government is quite prepared to must be joking. Of course it is possible for that to accept that decision. As with previous electoral happen. However, we are not talking about reform Bills, the Liberal Party will not let the possibilities, we are talking about realities. people decide: it will not let the people have their say. Once again, the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- The fact of the matter is that the figures I have sition has trotted out his bogey that the Govern- quoted indicate a majority of Western Australians ment wants the abolition of the Legislative Coun- wanted the Labor Party to come to power and in- cil. In doing that, he failed to mention-and went stead it went backwards in the Legislative Coun- off on another tack when I reminded him of cil. The Liberal Party increased its majority be- it-that it could not be abolished unless the cause of its dishonesty, treachery, and its perver- people wanted that to happen. The Legislative sion of the electoral system. Of course, it is afraid Council cannot be abolished without the people to let the people have a vote in this way. deciding that it should be. Once again, the Oppo- The only vote the Liberal Party will agree to is sition is afraid to let the people have a say as to a vote taken after it has perverted the electoral whether the Legislative Council should continue, arithmetic to give itself a majority based upon a or the extent of the powers it should have. minority of the votes. On the other hand, we are I do not believe that cynicism has any place in content to let the people have a say in the matter. politics. For the Deputy Leader of the Opposition We are content for the people to be given the to say that he believes there should be an effective choice; and if the people, at a referendum, reject check upon the Government of the day is so hyp- our suggestion and back the arguments of the Op- ocritical as to be sickening when, for 90 years, the position, that is their democratic choice. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]181 4817

That is where we part company with the Oppo- Party will not say that a Liberal Government sition. We will accept the people's decision if a could be forced to the people if its Budget were majority of the people make it. The Opposition stopped because it knows it has a parliamentary will not agree to that, because it knows it does not majority in the other place and there is no pros- have the support of the majority. Therefore, it has pect of a Liberal Budget being rejected. contrived a situation in the Council to give itself Mr Clarko: Only while we have a majority of an unfair advantage. When we say, "Okay, if you seats. think that is a fair system, let the people decide which system they prefer", the Opposition says, Mr TONKIN: The Liberal Party has the ca- pacity in the other place, which "No. we won't have that either". The Opposition it quaintly calls a House of Review, to send a Government to the will not have a fair system and it will not give the people. people the chance to arbitrate in this dispute. Not only should there be power in certain Mr Hassell: You are trying to dish up a budgetary matters, but there should also be pro- cooked-up system. You know that. vision for the resolving of deadlocks in other mat- Mr TONKIN: This reform, and the other ters. The Budget is not the only important reforms, come back to the principle that when measure to come before the Parliament. there is a dispute between the two Houses-at the Mr Old: You are okay now. You have your moment there is an impasse-and there is no way numbers. The Minister for Education has news of resolving it. that just means that the Govern- fQr you. ment elected by the people must accept it and nothing can happen. This reform provides for the Mr TONKIN: Constitutional Bills can be re- final umpire to be the people; and we can come to jected by the upper House and there is no pro- that situation either by way of double dissol- vision for the resolution of such a deadlock. I am ution- not sure of the ideas of the National Party on this, but I would certainly be happy to listen to them. Mr Clarko: Double disillusion! Certainly the Liberal Party's idea is that there Mr TONKIN: -or by way of referendum- In should be a double dissolution in the case of the its magnificence, the Liberal Party has said that it stopping of a Budget. will agree to a double dissolution if supply were stopped-if the Budget were rejected. How gener- Mr Stephens: There could be a double dissol- ous! In other words, the Legislative Council will ution in the case of a rejection of a Bill, but it be able to stop the supply of a Labor Government must be held within a specified period after that reje ction, and not held at any time, and force it to the people. Even if the about 14 months later, as people have elected a Labor Government. as in the Federal Government originally did so that the this case, the Legislative Council will ]have the people had an election and they did not know the issues that caused the power to force the Parliament to an election. double dissolution. Mr Clarko: You have been arguing all day that Mr TONKIN: That sounds like a reasonable the people should be allowed to have a say, have proposition. I will certainly give consideration to you not? it. Mr TONKIN: The [act of the matter is that The Parliament now has no deadlock solving the people should not be able to have a say every provision. To show how unfair members opposite week or every month at the whim of the Legislat- are, the reason they do not want deadlock solving ive Council. is that they always have control of the Legis- lative Council. They have never been part of a Mr Clarko: Only at your whim? Government which has had to race a hostile upper Mr Hassell: Exactly. House; so they are quite happy for this situation Mr TONKIN: Our whim happens to be the to continue. whim of the Government. The Opposition cannot If we ever had a majority in the other place, the accept that. It cannot accept that we have been Liberal Party would come squealing and saying, elected to govern this State. As in 1975 and 1974, "We must have deadlock solving provisions". The the Liberal Party refused to accept the people's only kind of fairness the Opposition understands verdict, because it does not believe in democracy. ts the fairness of always having a majority in the Mr Hassell: I thought your people could not ac- upper House. Therefore it is not interested in cept the verdict in 1975. deadlock solving provisions because it never has to Mr TONKIN: The Liberal Party will not ac- face a deadlock. cept that we have the right to govern. It will not The Liberal Party shows its contempt for the accept the people's determination. The Liberal people by saying to them, "Yes, you can have an 4818 4818[ASS EM BLY)

election, but just realise that if you are so foolish Noes 22 Mr Blaikie Mr McNee as to elect a Labor Government, it will not have a Mr Bradshaw Mr Mensaros majority in the other place, and the other place Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor can reject any legislation. That is the way it will Mr Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr Rushton be. But, you never will be able to change the prin- Mr Crane M r Spriggs Mr Grayden Mr Stephens ciples of the other place, and if there is a deadlock Mr Hassell Mr Thompson between the two Houses during the term of a Mr Peter Jones Mr Trethowan Mr Laurance Mr Tubby Labor Government. there will be no provision for Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams deadlock solving'". That is the kind of contempt (Teller) the Opposition has for the concept of democracy. The SPEAKER: I declare that the second read- That is the kind of contempt it has for the people. ing of the Bill has been carried by an absolute majority of the Assembly. This issue is a powerful one in the electorate. Question thus passed. The reactionaries in the upper House may stI Bill read a second time. tight and reject every piece of legislation that goes there from this place; but without electoral and In Committee, etc. constitutional reform, the Liberal Party will never Bill passed through Committee without debate return to Government because it is perceived as and reported without amendment. being reactionary, unfair, and undemocratic. Report If members opposite ever want to return to the MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for Treasury benches, they will have to persuade their Parliamentary and Electoral Reform) [2.38 p.m.]: colleagues in the upper House to let through some I move- of these very reasonable reforms. Let us make no That the report of the Committee be mistake, this issue will not go away and this adopted. Government will not cease to continue to press for Question put and a division taken with the fol- reform as long as it is the Government of the lowing result- State. It is long since time that we had some pro- Ayes 31 vision for resolving deadlocks between the two Mr Barnett Mr Jamieson Mr Bateman Mr Tom Jones Houses, and we believe these reforms are the Mrs Beggs Mr Mclver fairest that can be devised, because in the ulti- Mr Bertram Mr Parker Mr Bridge Mr Pearce mate the people should decide. Mr Bryce Mr Read Mrs Buchanan Mr D. L. Smith The SPEAKER: Before I put the question, I Mr Brian Burke Mr P.]J. Smith advise the House that this Bill requires an absol- Mr Terry Burke M r A. D. Taylor Mr Burkett M r 1. F. Taylor ute majority of the House. Mr Carr Mr Tonkin Mr Davies M r Troy Question put and a division taken with the fol- Mr Evans Mrs Watkins lowing result- Mr Grill Mr Wilson Mrs Henderson Mr Gordon Hill Ayes 31 Mr Hodge (Teller) Mr Barnctt Mr Jamieson Noes 22 Mr Bateman M r Tomi Jones Mr Blaikie Mr McNee Mrs Beggs Mr Mclver Mr Bradshaw Mr Mensaros Mr Bertram Mr Parker Mr Clarko Mr O'Connor Mr Bridge M r Pearce Mr Court Mr Old Mr Bryce Mr Read Mr Cowan Mr Rushton Mr., Buchanan Mr D. L. Smith Mr Crane Mr Spriggs Mr Brian Burke Mr P. J. Smith Mr Grayden Mr Stephens Mr Terry Burke "MrA. D. Taylor Mr Hassell Mr Thompson Mr Burkett "Mr1. F. Taylor Mr Peter Jones Mr Trethowan Mr Carr Mr Tonkin Mr Laurance Mr Tubby M r Davies M r Troy Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams Mr Evans Mrs Watkins (Teller) Mr Grill Mr Wilson Question thus passed. Mrs Henderson Mr Gordon Hill Mr IHodge (Teller) Report adopted. [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 481941

Third Reading pletely. If the Government were genuine it would MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for have approached this matter in a different way. Parliamentary and Electoral Reform) [2.41 p.m.]: Secondly, I again emphasise that the handling I move- of this Bill in the House has itself been provoca- That the Bill be now read a third time. tive-it was introduced on the day after the rejec- tion of the other Bill last Thursday. The Govern- MR IIASSELL (Cottesloe-Deputy Leader of ment has allowed us one week for consideration of the Opposition) [2.42 p.m.]: Briefly, at the third this important legislation and the many and diffi- reading stage, I just want to place on record two cult aspects and implications of it. The Govern- things. I want to make it absolutely clear, in case ment has insisted on this debate proceeding today of any doubt whatever-I cannot imagine what when the Opposition has not had an opportunity that doubt could be-that the Opposition is to seek advice on the legal aspects of the Bill or, totally opposed to this Bill. as the member for Stirling said in relation to his Opposition members: Hear, hear! own position, to consider the possibility of amend- Mr HASSELL: We regard it as an attack on ments which just might have been acceptable to Parliament and one which, if it were to succeed, the Government itself. would result in the effective annihilation of the It is clear that the Government does not come Legislative Council and its elimination from any to the House with clean hands or with a genuine significant or effective role as a constituent position; it comes here attempting to ram a Bill institution of the Parliament. The Bill provides no through to the upper House in the shortest poss- basis on which some agreement could be reached ible time and to create and highlight conflict. on the subject of breaking deadlocks between the Mr Brian Burke: You are a bully. lower Hfouse and the upper House. In our view, it Mr HASSELL: It is not seeking to achieve is not intended to provide any basis upon which anything. The Government is being silly in the the Parliament could proceed on any form of gen- way it is going about this. eral agreement. Mr Brian Burke: Typical bully boy tactics. The Bill is, and is intended to be, provocative. It was hurriedly introduced into the House im- Mr HASSELL: The Premier and his carry-on mediately after the upper House rejected the Acts does not alter our clear view of what the Govern- Amendment (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. ment has done. The Government should have Were this Bill to succeed in being adopted by Par- been prepared to reconsider its position when the liament it would, of course, immediately result in Legislative Council rejected the Acts Amendment the reintroduction of the Acts Amendment, (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. I remind the (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. In the event of Premier that the Opposition has approached the the Legislative Council again rejecting that Bill, Government's legislation objectively and reason- the Legislative Council would then be bypasse ably. The Opposition has accepted in this House under the provisions of this Bill before us and the and in the Legislative Council substantial amend- Government would then succeed in doing pre- ments to the electoral law; it has accepted the cisely what it sought to do under the Acts Referendums Bill. The acceptance of those two Amendment (Constitution and Electoral) Bill. Bills at this stage represents acceptance of two- thirds of the legislative package on electoral This Bill is no more than, and no less than, an reform, as the Government calls it, put forward attempt by the Government to achieve a second by the Government. go at rejected legislation. Instead of learning from that legislation and from the attitude expressed by So it might have been thought by the Premier, the Opposition-the Opposition is entitled to have his Minister and his members, that if they genu- an attitude-the Government has just proceeded inely wanted to make changes, some basis upon headlong with its own predetermined position. As which changes could have been agreed to might I said during the second reading debate , the have been found. It might have considered that, in Governnmcnt has made no shadow of endeavour to the context of having succeeded with two-thirds of Find any basis upon which any agreement might the legislative package, a possibility existed that be reached between the parties and the two more could be done if the matter were approached Houses of Parliament on some measure of in a different way. change. The Government believes that because it Instead or making that approach, the Govern- temporarily has a majority in this House it is en- ment and the Minister simply rushed into the titled to change, not only the law, but also the House the very next day and said, "Well, here is whole system by which Parliament operates. That another Bill which is highly contentious, but we position is unacceptable and we rejecq it corn- know it will give us a chance to do exactly what 4820 4820[ASSEMBLY] you have just rejected". Thai is not the approach Mr Brian Burke: If you did not hear me, I will of a reasonable Government or of one which is tellI you. genuinely approaching this matter as it professes Mr HASSELL: I do not want to hear what the to be approaching Parliament. Premier said. The Premier emphasised in his speech, when he Several members interjected. opened Parliament in place of the Governor in July- Mr Brian Burke: You have a closed mind and that is your trouble, Bill. Mr Blaikie: And that was a tragedy. Mr HASSELL: All the Premier has done all Mr HASSELL: -what he referred to as the day is to be rude and abusive. Would the Premier spirit in which the Government approached Par- like me to quote him again his own words? liament. I have already quoted from that speech, but I will quote the following- Mr Bryce: They sounded great. Let me conclude by saying that my Mr HASSELL: They did sound great. Government is committed to the persistence Mr Bryce: They sounded dinkum, coming from of Parliament as a viable and vital him. institution, rather than as a moribund rubber Mr HASSELL: They were meant to sound stamp. great and they were meant to sound sincere, but If one were to consider the stream of abuse to by his actions the Premier has proved they were which I have been subjected by the Premier this not sincere and by his approach, and as a Minister morning and again this afternoon simply because in this House, he has demonstrated a lack of sin- I have opposed his legislation, one would have to cerity. say, on that test, that the Premier was not sincere. The Government has presented three major Several members interjected. Bills on constitutional and electoral reform. Two Mr HASSELL: The Premier went on to say, of those Bills have been accepted by the Parlia- when he opened Parliament in place of the ment, including this side of the House. One has Governor, that- been rejected. In addition, the Opposition made The spirit in which we approach this Par- public a number of proposals which it was pre- liament is that we have no monopoly on wis- pared to consider so we could approach the matter dom. on the pragmatic basis of seeking to find out whether there might be some basis of agreement Mr Bertram: Who said that'? on all sides rather than simply passing legislation Mr HASSELL: The member's leader. He con- on a majority in one House. tinued- Mr Wilson: When did you do that in Govern- If our legislation is flawed or can be ment? improved. I hope members from both sides Mr HASSELL: Instead, the Government has will not hesitate to point out weaknesses and rushed in to ram through another Bill-an im- possible improvements. Sensible proposals portant Bill on a subject of great importance to put forward in a genuine spirit will never be the future of this Parliament-and yet it has only rejected by this Government simply because warranted a week for consideration. When it is they came from the other side of the House. debated the only effort the Premier can make is to Months ago the Opposition parties put forward abuse and denigrate. That is the Premier's best ef- publicly a number of issues which could have been fort. He did not speak in the debate or make any considered in relation to the whole subject of elec- constructive comment at all. He was just abusive toral change. We did not commit ourselves to and rude. them. We wanted to maintain flexibility, but we certainly signalled, in making that public an- Several members interjected. nouncement. that on a reasoned basis we were Mr Bertram: That is nonsense. prepared to look at the issue. Mr HASSELL: He has continued in that vein Mr Brian Burke: You cannot keep your temper. since we returned from the luncheon adjourn- Mr HASSELL: As I said- ment. Mr Brian Burke: You should keep your temper. Several members interjected. Bill. Mr HASSELL: That is all the Premier has to Mr HASSELL: I do not know what the Prem- offer. ier said. Mr Brian Burke: You are really vitriolic today. [Thursday, 17 November 19831 424821

Mr HASSELL: Has the Premier any more abuse and denigrate the other House of Parlia- words- ment. Several members interjected. Mr 1. F. Taylor: Too right! Mr HASSELL: All members of the Govern- Mr HASSELL: The facts are still on the record ment can add a few words. and the Government's leader, when he opened Mr Brian Burke: It is getting the better of you. Parliament on behalf of the Governor, said that he wanted to be reasonable- Mr HASSELL: I think it has got the better of the Premier-, that is very clear. I am not going to Several members interjected. join in the Premier's banter and abuse him. Mr Tonkin: When did you consult with the Op- Mr Brian Burke: I would not expect you to be- position on electoral matters? cause you do not have the ability. Mr HASSELL: -but the Premier's actions speak for themselves. What he said meant Mr HASSELL: I am discussing the Bill and nothing. It was just a PR exercise- the Premier's approach to this subject. I am comparing what he said in July with what he has Government members interjected. done today. Those two things stand together and Mr HASSELL: The members opposite can they cannot be avoided. Both are on the record continue being abusive as long as they like. and they show what the Premier said was not sin- The SPEAKER: Order! I think the Deputy cere. It shows that what the Premier said was Leader of the Opposition should address his re- simply a mouthing of words in which he tried to marks to the Bill. convince the House. but more particularly, the public, that he is a reasonable man prepared to Mr HASSELL: Certainly. t am addressing my listen. He has not been prepared to listen; he has remarks to the way in which the Government has this Bill. Per- not listened and he has not learnt anything. treated the Parliament in relation to haps the point is now clear to the Deputy Premier The fact that two-thirds of the Premierss and his colleagues. It would not make much dif- reform package has been accepted with our sup- ference how we approached the Bill, the Govern- port has not moved him. The fact that we have ment's approach is very clear. It stands on the re- been prepared to consider the issues has not cord and can be seen. moved him. All the Premier is interested in is having his own way and insisting on his own way It is necessary to repeat statements often so and when he cannot get it he throws up another that members can hear them, because for so much Bill on a constitutional measure and Pushes it of the time Government members are interjecting through this House in one week in order to get it with irrelevancies and I have to start again to get the message across. I will keep going as long as to the upper House to Create a conflict. my time allows. The Premier has spoken time and time again in this House, in the short time he has been Premier, Several members interjected. condemning a confrontationist attitude. What The SPEAKER: Order! have we here? We have a deliberately constructed Mr H4ASSELL: I have been prepared to finish procedure for confrontation. We have the Govern- this speech five times, but Government members ment determined to have its own way and, in the will not allow me to do so. I will once again try to absence of getting it, to have a fight, never mind conclude. The Opposition is totally opposed to the issue and never mind if there is room to con- this Bill. We did not have the opportunity to deal sider the issue--create a confrontation and have a with it as thoroughly as we might which, of fight. I have made a promise to the Premier this course, explains the reason we did not deal with it morning. He will have a fight and I feel sure he clause by clause in Committee. It also explains will get his Bill tossed out. I do not want to say the reason we are not in a position to propose what the upper House will do because it acts indc- amendments to a Bill as important and complex pendently. as this one. I believe that this subject will do no- Several members interjected. one any good as long as the Government con- tinues to approach it in the way it has approached Mr Tonkin: You just said they will toss it out this Bill. and you know they will toss it out. What is the House of Review? A mob of puppets? MR CRANE (Moore) 13.02 p.m.): All that needs to be said on this legislation has been said, Mr HASSELL: Mr Speaker. you only have to but it would be remiss of me, and surprising, if I give members of the Government enough time allowed this Bill to pass the third reading without and they will say it all. They carry on with their making some derogatory comment. 4822 4822I[ASS EMBLY]

As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has Mr Tonkin: By definition, the Liberal Govern- said, there is no way in which this Bill can be ment never does. Look at the records. amended. There is nothing to be done to such Mr CRANE: On one occasion, a Bill did not legislation, particularly in view of the manner in have to go to the other House to be defeated; I which it has been presented to the House. There is refer to legislation concerning electoral laws when only one thing to be done-us we would do with a several of us crossed the floor and defeated it in sick sheep-that is; cut its throat to stop it from this place. That is one of the advantages of a con- dying a slow death. I hope this legislation will re- servative Government. It can happen only with ceive similar treatment. conservative Governments. It cannot happen with The Government would do well to consider for a Labor Government because all of its members a while what it has before it. As the Deputy are caucused and can never cross the floor to vote Leader of the Opposition said, the Opposition has against their own party. I hope and pray that the agreed to two-thirds of the legislation which the practice in the conservative Governments will Government brought in, considering that such continue. legislation was very important to its cause. If bad legislation is brought forward by a con- Mr Tonkin: Which two-thirds? servative Government, during the time it is be fore Mr CRANE: That has already been explained. Parliament there is an opportunity for it to be de- Surely it can be understood that the Government feated. However, with a Labor Government such cannot have its own way all the time and it legislation would never be defeated in this House. certainly cannot get it when it is wrong. There has For sinister reasons, the Government is trying to been a continual effort by the Government over remove the safety valve which our very wise fore- the last few months to rape the Parliament of fathers gave us many years ago. For these Western Australia. That may be all right as far as reasons, it is imperative for Western Australia, in it goes, but it is hard for Opposition members; to order that we might keep our decent way oF life, Jay back and enjoy it. 1, for one, certainly will not that we preserve the safety valve we have in the lay back and enjoy it. upper House. Several members interjected. In conclusion, i remind the Government of the many problems out there in the electorate, which Mr CRANE: The Leader of the House would problems are far more pressing than is this one. do well to remember a small verse which goes For example, the rating problem in Wan neroo something like this- needs attention. Let us get on with the problems God, give us grace to accept with serenity which are of basic concern to the people of West- the things that cannot be changed, courage to ern Australia, do something about those prob- change the things which should be changed, lems, and leave forever these acts of aggression. and the wisdom to distinguish the one from These are acts of aggression which the Govern- the other. ment is carrying out at the moment. For those of Those are very wise words. us who can remember, this is reminiscent of the early 1930s when we saw Hitler come to power. Mr Tonkin: In other words, we should give up and do nothing about this. Several members interjected. Mr CRANE: The Government will keep Mr CRANE: All we get from these members banging its head against a brick wall. However, it are the swastikas and the jack boots and I have no is certainly wrong and the people will show it that doubt that the Government already holds a store it is wrong. I am hoping that the members in the oF them. other House will also show the Government that Several members interjected. it is wrong. This is only the thin end of the wedge, which would mean the absolute eradication of the The SPEAKER: Order! upper House. This would mean the Government A Government member interjected. would be able to force its will upon the people Mr CRANE: Well, the member can speak at whenever it felt inclined to do so. last. It is a wonder to hear that those back- We have become accustomed to, and have de- benchers oF the Labor party have voices because fended, the system of government we have. It has in this House the only Government members we served our country well over many years through- hear speaking are the Leader of the House, the out the development of this country, and it will Premier, and the Ministers. The other Govern- continue to do so because it has a safety valve for ment members sit in their seats looking like well- bad legislation. Any Government can bring in bad trained poodles and stick up their hands when legislation. necessary. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]182 4823

The SPEAKER: Order! I would like the mem- Review; there is definitely a need for reform. We ber to address his remarks to the Bill. in the National Party are very sorry that we have Mr CRANE: I am happy to do so. I conclude to vote against this Bill outright. I explained in by saying that this Bill will cause only aggra- my second reading speech the reasons for that. vation and will not bring any satisfactory result as But when the Leader of the House was winding far as the Government is concerned, because it is up the debate he indicated that he had not wrong. For those reasons 1 object to it and I have listened. I thought that he was in the House at the every hope that my colleagues in another place time, but apparently he had not listened. will do the same. I would like to restate the National Party's pos- MR STEPHENS (Stirling) (3.10 p.m.]: I ition with regard to the powers of the upper would like to stress the opposition to this Bill and House. We are prepared to see a double dissol- indicate how disappointed we are that the ution provision included. We could accept that the Government has sought to steamroll this measure upper House has the power to reject a money Bill, through the House. Nobody will dispute that elec- but such action should bring about a double dis- toral reform is in its policy, but that does not solution of both Houses. The people then would have the mean to say that legislation ought to be initiated opportunity to make a decision on the and run through this House in one week. The way matter. in which this Government has introduced this Bill We also accept that if the upper House refuses has given us only one week to consider it. It has to pass a Bill after it has been presen ted on a sec- not permitted a proper discussion on the Bill, nor ond occasion, that would also create a situation proper consideration of an amendment which we for a double dissolution. But the resultant dissol- would like to have introduced. ution must take place within a specified time-I would suggest not later than three months. The The National Party is quite conscious of the people would then be making their decision at need for electoral reform and for reform of the that election on the issue which caused the double upper House itself. The Deputy Leader of the Op- dissolution. When, by way of interjection, I indi- position indicated that the upper House always cated that proposition to the Leader of the House, considers matters on their merits or honestly re- he said it sounded reasonable. views a situation. That is not correct. He would know. I can recall that when the member for I would just like to indicate to the House now Upper West Province (Hon. Tom McNeil) dis- that it is the intention of the National Party to covered a deficiency in the insurance legislation in have a private member's Bill drawn up to give ef- this State, as a result of an accident with his fect to our policy. When we introduce it into this power boat, he made inquiries, and in consul- House, I trust that the Leader of the House and tation with the Department of Consumer Affairs his Government will still regard our policy as and with assistance from the Parliamentary reasonable. Council introduced into the upper House a Bill to Mr Tonkin: That is one issue in itself which correct that deficiency. might be reasonable, but that is only one aspect. When the second reading of his Bill was being Mir STEPHENS: We are talking about the considered, the then Leader of the Government in double dissolution aspect. the upper House (Hon. Graham MacKinnon)-a Mr Tonkin: And the referendum provision. Liberal Government at the time-said that the Mr STEPHENS: The referendum provision issue in the Bill was a good one and one which really sidesteps the House completely. had merit, it was needed, but as the Liberal Government would introduce similar legislation in Mr Tonkin: That is right; it goes to the people. the following session, the Government rejected it. Mr STEPHENS: The Government must accept Here was a situation where a member of a that many of the issues which would cause a House calling itself a House of Review produced double dissolution could be complex and rather legislation. which was good and necessary, as was difficult for the public to understand fully. acknowledged by the Leader of the House, but it Mr Tonkin: What is the point of a double dis- was rejected. Every Liberal member followed suit solution then? and rejected that piece of legislation, so the Mr STEPHENS: That is the idea or represen- people of Western Australia were denied that pro- tatives- tection for another 12 months purely and simply Mr Tonkin: If the people cannot understand, because the Liberals had not thought of it first. there is no point in a. double dissolution. Ifr it is too I just mentioned that as an indication that the difficult for the people to sit in judgment, what is upper House does not always work as a House of the point of a double dissolution? 4824 4324[ASSEMBLY)

Mr STEPHENS: Give the people time and in- the National Party has put forward, and as re- formation on all the arguments and they may be cently as last week it accepted a suggestion put able to make a reasoned decision. The Minister forward by the National Party. I acknowledge has conducted sufficient political campaigns to that, If it continues in that fashion, its prestige as know how difficult it is to get the public to under- a Government will be enhanced. It is not a sign of stand all the issues involved. When the issues are weakness. complex, it is virtually impossible. That is one of Mr Tonkin: If the conservatives come back into the benefits of representative democracy. That is power, you will see the jack boots once again. the point that the National Party has frequently Mr STEPHENS: While the National Party is made. around, it will always respect and acknowledge It is regrettable that this piece of legislation reasoned argument. That has been the position we was introduced and debated in haste in an en- have always adopted. Indeed, it is possibly the deavour to create the impression that the Oppo- reason the National Party was formed, because sition is being unreasonable and unrealistic. That people who subscribed to it were not prepared to is not the situation at all as far as the National be "Yes" men to anyone. Party is concerned. I think our record will show Mr Parker: Unlike the National County Party. that we have always been prepared to make our judgment on the issues. On this oceasion the Mr STEPHENS: We in the National Party op- Government has provided insufficient time for us pose the third reading of this Bill. However, I would not like it to be taken that we are to bring forward reasoned amendments. It is for opposed that reason that we have opposed this piece of to change. We believe change is necessary and we legislation, and not because we are opposed to any hope, in the near future, Parliament will give con- reform whatsoever. sideration to our point of view. MR There is one benefit from this debate, and that BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Premier) [3.21 p.m.]: I hope the public are under no misappre- is the admission by the Liberal Party that it is prepared to accept some reform. That in itself is a hension as to what the Opposition is seeking so change of heart, because as recently as the end of thoroughly to oppose in this Parliament today, be- 1979, it was completely opposed to any consider- cause it is not true that this Bill relates specifi- cally or directly to electoral reform. However, it is ation of reform. I know that to be the case, be- true that it goes to the sensible reform of what cause I introduced a motion to establish a Select has been acknowledged as a shortcoming in the Committee- procedures of this Parliament for many years: Mr Tonkin: The suggestion for reform then put that is, the inability of the Parliament to resolve up would make matters worse. disputes between the two Chambers. Mr STEPHENS: Perhaps. Now the Opposition It is simply not the case that the Deputy Leader is acknowledging that there is a need for reform. of the Opposition in his exaggerated and less than As recently as the end of 1979, in the opinion of straightforward manner can claim that the the Opposition, there was absolutely no need for Government is attempting to do more than to put any reform at all. I hope that when we introduce to the public at a referendum a proposition the our Bill to bring about the reforms we think public are perfectly entitled to reject, if that is necessary, a reasonable compromise will be poss- what they want to do. That is the kernel of the ible between the opposing positions taken up by whole argument; not whether the electoral reform the Labor Party and the Liberal Party. One must propositions that the Government stands beside accept in a situation like electoral reform or elec- are the appropriate ones; not whether the elec- toral matters, no one party will be completely sat- toral reform proposals foreshadowed by the isfied with the result, and both sides should be National Party are desirable or will be of advan- prepared to accept a compromise. When the op- tage to the State; and not whether the portunity is given to consider the National Party's intransigence of the Opposition in its fight to point of view, both sides should accept this as a protect its own authority in the Legislative Coun- reasonable compromise. cil is a position that is worthy of defence. That is I would certainly hope that when that situation not at issue. arises, the Premier will bear in mind his remarks What is simply being sought by way of this to this House of how he was prepared to give legislation is the opportunity to put before the reasoned consideration to all matters brought be- public a simple question that goes to the resol- fore him. I will acknowledge that the Government ution of deadlocks between the Chambers in the has been reasonable. In this session of Parliament Parliament of Western Australia. For people to it has accepted about three amendments which stand in this place and say that somehow or other [Thursday, I17 November 1983] 424825 it is a sinister purpose that the Government is at- the same voting power and decision making op- tempting to persist with is absolutely absurd, be- portunity as do members opposite. cause no more democratic decision can be made Mr Stephens: You would not be giving the pub- than that made by the public voting at a lic the opportunity to express a point of view on referendum. our policy for resolving a deadlock. When Sir John Kerr sacked the Whitlamn Mr BRIAN BURKE: How absurd it is that the Labor Government the defence that was so often Government should be asked at a referendum to mounted by the Liberal Party at that time was put before the public every one of the 1000 or, I that, in the final analysis, leaving aside the pro- suspect, 2 000 possible resolutions of this problem. priety or otherwise of Sir John's decision, the fact It just so happens that we are the Government. was at an election the voting public were to be That might be anathema to some people outside given an opportunity to pass judgment on the ac- and to the Opposition in this place. The Deputy tion that Sir John took. Leader of the Opposition consistently demon- Therefore, the people were not obsessed or pre- strates his inability to accept the fact that on 19 occupied with the morality or otherwise of that February last a Labor Government was elected. action. They saw any defective morality as being That is his problem; but having been elected, we remedied by the fact that, at a referendum of the assume certain rights as to our ability to public-that is, at a national election-a decision introduce into the Parliament, as a Government, was made that passed judgment upon the actions propositions we think are appropriate and desir- of Sir John Kerr. We know the result of that de- able. If the public pass judgment on our perform- cision. We know that the Whitlam Government ance after three years and turn us out of office, was defeated soundly and that the Fraser Govern- we will be sitting on the opposite side of the ment was installed. Chamber. In the samc way, if the pubic say about We will continue to argue about the morality of the resolution of this problem which we propose Sir John Kerr's decision, but we will not argue that they will not accept it as an appropriate res- about the rightness or the accuracy of the result olution, it will not become law. of the election, because everyone entitled to vote We are simply asking: Why cannot the public had the opportunity to do so, the votes were have an opportunity to express the decision mak- counted in the normal way, and the election was ing ability that members on the opposite side of declared as a result of the counting. the Chamber and we on this side of the Chamber This legislation seeks only to put before the have? public a question about the way in which dead- Mr Clarko: Because we have a bicameral locks might be resolved. It does not seek to put system and you control only one House. before the public a question about electoral reform, proportional representation, malappor- Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is absolutely no tionment, or the gerrymandering of electoral reason for anyone in this place to vote against the boundaries. It seeks simply to say to the public. legislation on the basis that somewhere someone "There will be and have been occasions when a else might vote against it; that does not make deadlock has occurred between the Legislative sense. Council and the Legislative Assembly. Presently There can be only one answer to this question. there is no provision in the Standing Orders to re- There can be only one answer to the isolation of solve the deadlock." That is all it is saying. It goes the public expression of opinion in this matter and on to say. "Here is a proposition about a possible I shall tell members what the answer is: The Lib- resolution of that problem". It does not say, "You eral Party in this State is afraid that, if this mat- must vote to support that proposition", "You are ter goes to the public for a decision, the decision compelled to support the Government's position", will not be one in keeping with its policy. That is or "You are compelled to support the Oppo- the answer, because there can be no fairer and sition's position". It says this: This book of Stand- more fulsome confirmation of one's point of view ing Orders does not provide for the resolution of a than to go to a referendum and let the public vote deadlock. We are putting forward as our sugges- to support or oppose what one puts forward. tion this method to resolve a deadlock. Mr MacKinnon: You can say that on every Mr Cowan: We are rejecting it. issue. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Members opposite are Mr BRIAN BURKE: If this matter goes to a certainly rejecting it and we are giving to the pub- referendum and is defeated, our point of view is lic the same opportunity they are taking to them- effectively excluded from public debate for the selves in their rejection. Let the public exercise foreseeable future. 4826 4826[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Stephens: But it does not necessarily mean prevents it from squarely confronting the public that the public subscribe to the Opposition's point and saying, "The politicians can't agree. We will of' view, and that is what I am trying to say. let the public decide the matter". Mr BRIAN BURKE: No-one is asking that Mr Clarko: You don't control both Houses of they subscribe to the Opposition's point of view. Parliament. At a referendum the public will be asked simply Mr BRIAN BURKE: Naturally we are talking to support or oppose the point of view expressed about the way people vote in this House. As far as by the Government in the question asked. If that I am concerned, if I can convince the members is the fact, there is no more secure rejection of our opposite to vote in support of this legislation, I position than for the position members opposite will have done my job in this place, and it will be have raised to our point of view-not for the sup- up to the people in another place to make their port that they have raised for their own-to be decisions. bolstered by that expression of public opinion. Mr Laurance: And they will. Why will not members opposite let the public Mr BRIAN BURKE: There is no excuse for cast their votes on such a critically important the member for Karrinyup's saying that, because issue? If we are rejected, our point of view will be we have a bicameral system, he will not vote to subordinated for years; therefore, there is a big support a proposition appropriate in tis place. plus in the referendum for the Opposition if the public reject the Government's point of view. Mr Clarko: You don't control both Houses of Parliament from here, and you don't understand However, there can be only one answer and that. that answer is simply this: As soon as this question of electoral reform in any shape or form Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is high time squab- goes before the public, the policies of the Oppo- bling politicians were taken out of the arena in sition will be defeated resoundingly. which these decisions are made. The one way in which squabbling politicians cant be taken out of It has become clear to the Government that this the picture is for the conduct of a referendum to is an issue that crosses over traditional party lines. be agreed to, and for the public to be asked to de- There is abroad today a body of opinion expressed cide. As far as the Government is concerned, that by people who have never supported the Labor is our position; it will not be changed and we will Party, and who will never support it, but who on not be bullied by the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- this issue say that it is a matter of common sition. We will not be intimidated by him. Our morality that the votes of an individual should not position on. this matter is absolutely unalterable, be worth one-twelfth the vote of one of his neigh- and it is a position that has been adequately and bours. excellently put by the Leader of the House when Mr Spriggs: Will you provide the money for time and time again he has shown up the lack of both sides of the argument in any referendum? detailed knowledge on the part of members of the Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, through the Opposition about electoral reform; when he has Government I will provide the amount of money shown up their lack of basic decency in their required to put the "No" case- Then will the treatment of their fellows as expressed by their at- member for Darling Range vote for the legis- titudes to electoral reform;, and when he has lation? Of course he will not. You see, Mr thoroughly embarrassed the Opposition by con- Speaker, it is true that there is a fear on the part tinually confronting them with the choice that of the Opposition to involve the public in these leaves them to squabble in Parliament about matters. whether or not we will vote for honesty and fair- Mr Spriggs: I just think the whole thing is a ness, and let the public decide by way of a sham. I think we should be creating more pro- referendum to stop the bickering. ductivity instead of playing around with the elec- MR COWAN (Merredin) [3.34 p.m.]: My col- torate and banning cigarette advertising, or im- league, the member for Stirling, made it clear posing 10 per cent pay cuts. that the National Party has always supported Mr Parker: Unlike you, we can do more than reform. I do not need to re-em phasise that fact, one thing at the same time. but I remind the Premier that the Parliament of Western Australia controls the Government; the Mr BRIAN BURKE: As the Minister for Em- Government does not control the Parliament. ployment and Administrative Services points out, the pursuit of one policy does not exclude the sim- Mr Bryce: But it is a crooked Parliament. ultaneous pursuit of other policies. I repeat that Mr COWAN: It is a basic fact the Premier has there is a fear on the part of the Opposition that forgotten about this Parliament. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]182 4827

Mr Bryce: You and your forebears helped to for its actions and forced its members to go to the make it crooked, and you know that and have to people with the Legislative Assembly if the Coun- live with it every day. cil denied a money Bill. But that was not suf- Mr COWAN: The Parliament controls the ficient for the Leader of the House. In his en- Executive; the Executive is not meant to control thusiasm for electoral reform, he has taken one the Parliament. step too many, and that step is what will cause the defeat of this Bill. Mr Parker: This legislation does not change that. I look forward to the time when facilities are made available to private members in this place to Mr COWAN: It will. have legislation drafted in time to present it. I do Mr Parker: It doesn't change it at all. not cast any aspersion on the Parliamentary Mr COWAN: It will change it. What happens Draftsman because I am aware the level of work in this Parliament is that the Legislative Council required of him to do that task would be far too and the Legislative Assembly as completely separ- great. However, we do intend to introduce legis- ate Houses of Parliament are able to make de- lation which will be moderate and which I think cisions in their own rights. Unfortunately for the will obtain popular support and the support of Government of the day, it has not been able to both sides of the House. control the Legislative Council. It does not matter I cannot support a Bill which will provide for what is presented in the Legislative Council, it the first step towards the abolition of a bicameral has, by virtue of its numbers, control over de- Parliament. cisions made by the Government when the MR OLD (Katanning-Roc) [3.40 p.m.]: I was Government happens to comprise members of the quite prepared to let the matter pass, but because Labor Party- What this legislation would do by of some of the remarks that have been made I way of its referendum provisions, is to take that wish to make a brief contribution. control away from the Legislative Council, and This Bill was introduced in a fit of pique by the transfer it to the Government. That is contrary to Leader of the House because of his failure to have the system of Parliament to which I subscribe and another Bill accepted. The whole thing is part of that is why I oppose the legislation before the an electoral package which was promoted by the House. present Government when it was campaigning The Premier spoke about honesty in Govern- prior to the election. As I have said before, the mrent. I suggest to him that if there is to be Labor Party never had any idea whatsoever that honesty by the Government today, it will title this it would be in a position to introduce and pass legislation, "A Bill to initiate the procedure of these Bills in the Legislative Assembly. abolishing the upper House", because by use of a History will record that it is an unfortunate referendum it intends to bypass the insti tution fact that this has occurred temporarily. which may not agree with it. If that institution agrees with the Government, fine; but if it does Mr Blaikie: It will be a passing malaise. not, the Government intends to bypass it by way Mr OLD: What a great term. I just want to of a referendum. I suggest to the Premier that if make my position and the position of my party he had left this legislation at the stage where the clear; that is, we have no intention whatsoever of system of breaking deadlocks was confined to a supporting any change in the electoral situation double dissolution procedure, he would have won which will in any way disadvantage country a great deal of support from the upper House, but people. Country people are being disadvantaged once again, this Government is guilty of overkill enough today by actions of Governments. This and the introduction of too much. Government will go down in history as the one I do not think there is a majority of Western which has done more to wreck the decenitralised Australians who want the Legislative Council system than any other Government in the past. I completely bypassed by way of a referendum. I do say that because of a question I asked of the Min- not think the public will ever be given an oppor- ister for Transport-and the circumstances sur- tunity to express that view because this Bill will rounding this matter are well-known in this be defeated in the upper House. However, had the House-about the decimation of Westrail in Leader of the House been prepared to initiate country areas. these changes step by step, I am quite certain the I am totally opposed to any change in the initial step should have been to provide for the weighting of votes to country people. I am totally breaking of deadlocks between the Houses by way opposed to any trendy changes of the type of a double dissolution. He could have included referred to, and which are to be introduced into some reference to the responsibility of the Council this House. One of them has been introduced pre- 4828 4828ASSEMBLYI

viously by the member for Stirling. The motion representative of the monarch, acts on the advice supposedly was an adaptation of "electoral of his Ministers and we all know that if the reform'. Governor-in-Executive-Council makes a decision, Mr Stephens: Ir was a move for a Select Com- that is the decision of the Executive. Therefore I mittee, if you want to quote me correctly. would say that even if only these two provisions Mr OLD: It just goes to show the philosophy of .have been pointed out-and we have not had some people who are supposed to represent enough time to study it thoroughly-it shows how country people and how they are prepared to sac- absurd the Bill is. But only these two provisions rifice the representation of country people in would make it absolutely unprecedented and order to secure their own situation. would make it almost a cheat if it were to be Mr Stephens interjected. passed in this Parliament and become law. Mr OLD: There is no way in the world that I I suggest, as I did by way of interjection, quite will change my attitude. If we sink on the basis of sincerely that, to express its intention, the title of reasonable representation for country people-the this Bill should have been entirely different. The Government should not forget that it temporarily proper title should have been, "A Bill for an Act has some country representation-then I am pre- to perpetuate the ALP and/or the Burke Govern- pared to go down. I can assure members we will ment's power as Government of Western Aus- not, because justice will prevail. tralia and for incidental and other purposes". MIR MENSAROS (Floreat) [3.45 p.m.]: I do The SPEAKER: Before I put the question I re- not want to prolong the debate, but I was again mind members that this Bill requires an absolute incited by the members on the Government side majority of the Parliament. If I hear a dissentient to make a few remarks. What I would like to em- voice, a division will be called. phasise in connection with this legislation-apart Question put and a division taken with the fol- from the fact that the Government must have lowing result- foreseen that it could not be accepted because it is Ayes 31 worse than the previous measure-is that it con- Mr Barnett Mr Jamieson Mr Bateman Mr Tonm Jones tains a tremendous number of not only unsaid, Mrs Beggs Mr Mclver but also so far unnoticed anomalies, as does the Mr Bertram Mr Parker second reading speech. Mr Bridge Mr Pearce Take for instance the fact that it entirely takes Mr Bryce Mr Read Mrs Buchanan Mr D. L. Smith out the Legislative Council from the Legislature. Mr Brian Burke Mr P. J. Smith It leaves it there as a toy only because if we con- Mr Terry Burke Mr A. D. Taylor sider the provisions in what is to be I think the Mr Burkett Mr 1. F. Taylor Mr Carr Mr Tonkin new section 73A(l) we Find that to any Bill the Mr Davies Mr Troy Government can add a small provision appointing Mr Evans Mrs Watkins one person to administer the Bill or something Mr Grill Mr Wilson like that which automatically would put it into the Mrs Henderson Mr Gordon Hill Mr Hodge (Teller) category of a money Bill which has an entirely Noes 22 different treatment. This is a possible subterfuge Mr Blaikie Mr McNee in the Bill which has been possibly subtly inserted Mr Bradshaw Mr Mensaros and no-one even mentioned it. However, it is not Mr Cla rko Mr O'Connor difficult to draft any Bill so that it would qualify Mr Court Mr Old Mr Cowan Mr Rushton as a money Sill and then it would come into the Mr Crane Mr Spriggs second category and would have a different Mr Grayden Mr Stephens treatment from the point of view of ironing out Mr Hassell Mr Thompson the differences of the two Houses. Consequently Mr Peter Jones Mr Trethowan Mr Laurance Mr Tubby even without going a step further , after passing Mr MacKinnon Mr Williams this legislation, the Government could do any- thing to the upper House. It would be reduced to The SPEAKER: I declare this Bill something like a toy and would have absolutely no carried with an absolute majority of members of significance whatsoever. this Assembly. The other thing which the Deputy Leader of Government members: Hear, Hear! out-but I think it ought the Opposition pointed Opposition members: Shame! to be emphasised-is the substituting of the Legislature with the Executive when the decision Question thus passed. is left to the Governor. It is well known that, in Bill read a third time and transmitted to the the constitutional monarchy, the Governor, the Council. [Thursday, 17 November 19831 482982

TAXI-CARS (CO-ORDINATION AND CON- Mr Rushton: You never read anything appar- TROL) AMENDMENT BILL ently. Second Reading Mr GRILL: At present the board comprises- MR GRILL (Esperanc-Dundas-Minister for The Commissioner of Transport--or his Transport) [3.52 p.mn.]: 1move- deputy-, the chairman, and a representative from each of the following- That the Bill be now read a second time. Police Department, Traffic Branch; For some time the Government has been con- Local Government, that the present organizational structure of cerned Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Transport the Taxi Control Board does not give members of Trust, together with three taxi industry rep- the taxi industry a strong enough voice in the resentatives elected by the industry, and who management of the industry's affairs. shall be: An owner of a taxi car; a full time The taxi industry has an increasing role to play driver of a taxi car; and a person who is not in Perth's urban transport scene of the future, and actively engaged on the road in the operation whilst I have no crystal ball, I am confident that of a taxi car. we will see major changes to the public's Government control over the present day activi- travelling habits in the years to come, and taxis will help to bring about those changes. To meet ties of the industry is exercised through the board, these challenges, it is essential that we have a and as I have just outlined, the industry itself does healthy, viable, and efficient taxi industry, and I not have a majority voice on that organization. feel this can best be brought about by industry If the taxi industry is to be encouraged to adapt members having a greater say in policy develop- itself to meet any changing pattern of demand for ment and in the control of that industry. its services, and to introduce innovative and viable operating concepts to enable it to survive and The Government's concern for the future of the prosper in the competitive passenger transport taxi industry is reflected in my recent actions in Field, it is vital that the industry be in a position to setting up a strategy committee to examine share make itself heard. This is particularly SOWhen one riding and multiple hiring concepts, two realizes that the whole of the capital and labour innovative ideas that, if implemented, will mean a in providing this major segment of the public major change in taxi operative procedures. The transport scene is provided at no cost to the tax- industry is deeply involved in this commi ttee, as well it should be, as its future is at stake. payer. I hope the former Minister for Transport is not leaving. With the troubled and stringent times through Mr Blaikie: The shadow spokesman is here. which the taxi industry has been passing, it is es- sential that the views of the various factions Mr Rushton: I can hear you outside, as I can within the industry should have a more direct say inside. in how taxi operations will proceed in the future. Mr GRILL: It is little realised that the taxi in- For these reasons, this Bill proposes increasing the dustry, over the course of a year, carries some 10 extent of taxi industry representation on the Taxi million passengers-no mean feat in itself-and Control Board from its present level of three to this is about one-sixth of the number carried by six. the Metropolitan Transport Trust in a corre- It seems appropriate to point out at this stage, sponding period. that this concept of giving the industry a greater The board exercises total control of the indus- say in its destiny, was one of the recommen- try, ranging from such mundane matters as the dations of the Carly report commissioned by the length of an operator's hair, to the height of his previous Government. For reasons best known to socks, and to the more complex issues of de- itself, the Government of the day did not proceed termining policy for the benefit of the industry as with implementing such recommendations;, per- a whole. It is not difficult to imagine the haps if it had, we would see a much more viable frustration of some industry members who may and efficient taxi service than we have today. have sunk their life savings into their taxi to re- Mr Rushton: You know full well legislation was alise that their combined voice on the present just about finalised and the review was nearly board may not be sufficient to implement pro- complete. You had the advantage of that re- posals they want adopted. search. These proposed amendments will have the ef- Mr GRILL: That is not my information at all. fect of lessening Government control over the in- 4830 4830[ASSEMBLY] dustry generally, and strengthening the control Industry members have a vested interest in the exercised by the industry itself over the operation future well-being of Perth's taxi industry, and ac- of Perth's taxi services. These amendments will cordingly I would look to a newly constituted Taxi help to overcome some of the present criticisms, Control Board, strengthened by additional indus- and also recognise the skills, expertise, and contri- try members, to provide fresh thinking in an en- bution taxi operators can provide in helping to deavour to resolve many of the problems presently make the industry more viable and efficient. facing the industry. As for the interjection by the The main thrust of the proposed amendments member for Dale, I am rather sick and tired of are- that member claiming that Government initiatives To provide for the appointment of three ad- are not what they seem. I would issue him with a ditional industry members to the Taxi Con- challenge here and now that if he wants to pro- trol Board; ceed with the accusation that he had drafted and almost prepared legislation of a similar nature to of these three members, two who must be ac- tively engaged in the provision of taxi ser- this, then he should produce it at the time that vices, will be nominated by the Minister for this second reading debate goes on. I challenge Transport. I see this as giving the Minister a him to produce it. I say here and now that he can- flexibility to enable him to appoint a member not produce a scrap of evidence along that line. who might represent minority interests, but A member: You say there was not a draft of who has insufficient numbers to be elected in legislation? his own right. The melding together of diver- Mr GRILL: Notwithstanding the fact that gent views, will often result in innovative and when the member left his office he took almost imaginative proposals; every scrap of paper, every record, and every file the third industry member will be elected, in that he could lay his hand on with him, I chal- the same manner in which the present three lenge him to produce a draft. industry members are now elected; Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Laurance. the term of office for 'all appointed members of the board shall be two years in lieu of the INDECENT PUBLICATIONS AND ARTICLES present three years, but all members shall be AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) eligible for re-election or re-appointment, as Second Reading the case may be; the present three elected members will go out MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for Em- of office on the proclamation of the new Act, ployment and Administrative Services) [4.02 and an election will be held from within the pm.]: I move- taxi industry for these three vacant positions, That the Bill be now read a second time. as well as for the newly created fourth The market for video tapes in Western Australia elected member; and elsewhere in Australia has burgeoned with initially, to ensure rotating membership, the the proliferation of domestic video cassette re- third and fourth elected members will only corders. Further rapid growth of the industry is bold office for one year; expected in the short term. likewise one of the two members nominated Since July 1982 a working party of Common- by the Minister, shall only hold office for one wealth and State officials has been meeting to ar- year; rive at a workable basis for a uniform system for the number of members required to form a the control of publications, including video tapes, quorum shall be increased from four to in most States of Australia. seven. The proposed system is designed to accord with The aim of this amendment is to provide the in- the following broad principles- dustry with a greater say in its own affairs, and to (a) That individual adults should have the enable it to exercise a greater control over its right to make their own decisions as to future destiny. I am confident that the taxi indus- try has a much greater role to play in Perth's what they wish to see, hear, and read; transport scene of the future, and to ensure that (b) that the community generally should be role is achieved, imaginative and achievable pro- protected from exposure to material that posals must be put forward by those who will put is commonly offensive or potentially them into practice. damaging to them: [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 434831

(c) that minors should not be allowed free In essence, the Bill will apply the system which access to material about which their has operated successfully in this State for the parents might wish to exercise guidance. classification of printed and written material to Other than in the case of extremely offensive ma- the sale or hire of video tapes. terial, these principles can be achieved by the con- Persons wishing to sell or hire video tapes ditional sale of publications, rather than by absol- classified as restricted publications will be re- ute prohibition. quired to register and pay the required fee. As the first step in the implementation of a uni- Registered persons will be provided with a list form classification system, it is intended that the of those video tapes classified as restricted publi- Australian Capital Territory introduce model cations by the Minister on the recommendation of legislation with each State enacting similar legis- the advisory committee. lation to control publications within its own The interim system I have outlined will achieve jurisdiction. two main objectives: It will restrict the sale or hire It will then be a logical extension for each State of video tapes with a violent or sexual content to to adopt the decisions of the Commonwealth adults;, and it will make it an offence for a pro- censorship officers who generally now classify all prietor to display or exhibit such material in a publications in the first instance. shop except in an area of the shop set aside for As a safeguard in this State, the existing State the purpose of display and sale of material classi- advisory committee on publications will be able to fied as restricted. review Commonwealth classifications on appeal, The Indecent Publications and Articles Act or upon the initiative of the Minister. presently contains provisions which permit the These proposals were ratified on 13 July 1983 prosecution oF persons in possession of obscene or by a meeting of Commonwealth and State Minis- indecent video tapes for sale or gain. ters responsible for censorship. These provisions have been enforced in the past It is expected that the Australian Capital Terri- by the Police Department and will continue to be tory ordinance will be submitted to the House of enforced in the future to control the sale or hire of Representatives for review next week, and the obscene or indecent video tapes. necessary amendments to the Commonwealth I commend the Bill to the House. censorship regulations will follow. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Hassell Until the uniform classification system for pub- (Deputy Leader of the Opposition). lications is in place, rather than allow the video industry to establish itself without some controls FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS DUTY BILL over the content of the material and the sale of Second Reading pornographic video tapes to minors, the Govern- ment has acted to prevent the sale or hire of in- MR BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Treasurer) (4.08 decent or obscene material and to restrict the dis- p.m.]: I move- tribution of video tapes of a violent or sexual con- That the Bill be now read a second time. tent to adults. The purpose of this Bill is to implement one of the The Bill now before the House will amend the measures announced in the Budget; namely, a Indecent Publications and Articles Act to allow new duty on the receipts of financial institutions. the State advisory committee on publications to When considering the introduction of this new recommend the classification which should apply duty, the Government was mindful of two import- to video tapes in this State. ant factors. It will be an offence to sell or hire material Firstly, the abolition of certain stamp duties classified as restricted to persons under the age of which accompanied the introduction of this duty 18 years. in other States had led to a decline in short-term The exhibition or display of such material will money market activity in Western Australia. As a be prohibited also, except in an area in a shop set result, there was a need For some action to be aside for the purpose of display and sale of this taken to redress a situation in which local com- material. merce was becoming increasingly dependent on Persons who sell or hire material classified as activity in Eastern States' money markets. subject to prosecution, or persons who attempt to Secondly, there was a real need to eliminate a deal in video tapes which have not been submitted number of inequitable and inefficient stamp for classification but which are considered to be duties which often impact on those in the com- obscene or indecent, will be liable for prosecution. munity least able to afford them. 4832 rASSEMBLYI

The new duty will apply to all financial banking transactions, the total duty payable institutions which have receipts in excess of $5 will be only around 14c per week; million per annum or $416 666 in a month. The an individual receiving average weekly earn- institutions liable to pay the duty will include ings credited directly to a bank account and banks, building societies, credit unions, Finance who is repaying a $30 000 housing loan as companies, cash management trusts, and similar well as meeting a $250 Bankeard account bodies. each month will pay an average duty of The duty will be imposed on the receipts of around 20c per week; financial institutions at a rate of 0.05 per the impact of the duty will be highest on cenit-that is, at the rate of Sc per $l00-with an those individuals with very high incomes who upper limit of $500 payable on any single receipt. deposit substantial amounts with financial The word "receipts" is defined in the Bill. How- institutions; however, even for those individ- ever, in general terms, receipts may be described uals, the low rate of duiy-one-twensieth of as comprising money received by financial one per cent-should minimise the impact; institutions and include credits to accounts kept if pensioners cash their cheques at banks, no with those institutions. duty will be payable. However, if pensioners The new duty is to apply from 1 January 1984 choose to deposit their cheques in an account with the first collections based on transactions in kept with a financial institution, the duty January 1984 being due in February 1984. To as- payable by single pensioners depositing their sist those institutions which experience difficulty cheques will be roundly 5c per week. in modifying existing computer systems by the These relatively low duty payments need to be introduction date, special transitional arrange- compared with the cost of measures such as the ments have been provided to enable those increase in the excise on motor spirit and diesel institutions to pay duty on an estimated basis for fuel announced in the Commonwealth Budget, up to the first six months. which is estimated to cost the average motorist As I foreshadowed in my Budget speech, the 50c to 70c per week. Government will move concurrently with the I now turn to the detailed provisions of the Bill introduction of the financial institutions duty to and, in so doing, 1 would like to emphasise that, in eliminate those stamp duties applying to credit drafting the Bill, the Government was conscious business, to instalment purchase agreements, and of the complex nature of the legislation and its on the issue and discounting of promissory notes likely impact on the operations of financial and bills of exchange other than cheques. institutions. To this end, the Government has The abolition of these duties is the subject of taken the rather unusual step of distributing a the accompanying Stamp Act Amendment Bill. copy of the Bill, while still in the drafting stage, to Revenue collected from the new duty is esti- representatives of the finance industry. In view of mated to be $16.2 million in 1983-84 and $38.8 the complexity of the Bill, a copy was also pro- million in a full year. After taking into account vided to the Leader of the Opposition-late last the loss of revenue from the stamp duties to be week. abolished, it is estimated that the net additional The process of consultation with the finance in- revenue received in the Consolidated Revenue dustry has enabled the Bill now before members Fund will be £9.2 million in 1983-84 and $21.8 to be drafted in a way the Government believes million in a full year. will minimise, so far as possible, the impact on the As mentioned previously, the duty is payable by operations of financial institutions. In addition, institutions. However, the experience elsewhere the Bill has been drafted to give the Government indicates that the cost is likely to be passed on to sufficient regulatory power to enable it to respond clients and, in fact, the Bill specifies that there is quickly and responsibly to issues which may arise nothing in the legislation to prevent this. In fact, once the new duty is in operation. it would be unrealistic to pretend that it would be An explanatory memorandum, dealing with the otherwise. However, the key feature of the new clauses or the Bill, has been prepared for the in- financial institutions duty is that it will apply at a formation of members and the public to assist in low rate across a wide Field and the impact on in- the examination of the legislation, and it will be dividuals will be kept to a minimum. The extent tabled shortly. of the cost to individuals can be illustrated by the As I mentioned at the outset, the ncw duty will following examples- apply to the receipts of financial institutions. The If deposits of $15 000 a year are credited registration requirements are set out in part V of to a person's bank account as a result of his the Bill and require financial institutions, whose [Thursday, 17 November 19831 434833 dutiable receipts during the preceding 12 months Commonwealth, State, Territory, and local exceeded $5 million or during the preceding government bodies-other than in respect of their month exceeded $416 666, to submit a monthly business activities-a trust account of a dealer return to the Commissioner of State Taxation. held for the purposes of the securities industry Each return must specify the total of the dutiable (Western Australia) code, the clearing or settle- receipts and the number of individual dutiable re- ment accounts of building societies, credit unions, ceipts of, or exceeding, S1 million that were re- dealers, futures brokers, wool buyers and sellers, ceived during the month. and co-operative societies and approved sweeping As I mentioned in my Budget speech, special accounts held with a bank. provisions have been included in the Sill to reduce While this Bill provides for other prescribed the amount payable on defined short-term money trust accounts required to be kept under a pre- market operations. This recognises the nature of scribed Act to receive an exemption, it is the the short-term money market which is character- Government's intention to carefully review indus- ised by a rapid turnover of funds. Dealers in the try submissions before deciding whether to pre- short-term money market may apply for scribe any Acts for the purpose of this clause with certification under the Bill to qualify for a con- a view to severely limiting the number of exemp- cessional rate of duty. The Bill provides for two tions provided because the intention of the duty is classes of dealers- to apply a low rate of duty to a broad base. In Victoria, where a similar provision applies, no (i) short-term dealers who are not pre- Acts have been prescribed for the purposes of ob- scribed-primarily trading banks and taining an exemption. Consequently, as the official dealers; and Government intends to generally follow the pro- (ii) prescribed short-term dealers- cedure in other States and restrict the number of primarily savings banks, building exemptions, exemptions would not be available societies, ci -edit unions, and corporate for trust accounts established under Acts such as dealers w;'ho are not financial the Real Estate and Business Agents Act or, in institutions. general, under the Legal Practitioners Act. It is For short-term dealers who are not prescribed, the relevant that if there were a substantial number of basis for charging the duty is related to short- exemptions, a higher rate of duty would be re- term liabilities which broadly represent short- quired to raise the same revenue. term deposits and loans to, or borrowings by, the Certain Government instrumentalities whose dealers. The concessional rate does not apply to operations are in the nature of business undertak- deposits of less than $50 000 or amounts de- ings will be required to pay FID in the same way posited or borrowed for a period of more than 185 as private sector bodies; and it is the Govern- days. Duty is to be paid by a short term dealer ment's intention that these instrumentalities will who is not prescribed at the rate of 0.005 per cent not have access to exempt accounts. per month on one-tenith of the average daily short- A number of receipts in the hands of financial term liabilities in Australia for the month. institutions are also exempt from duty including Short-term dealers who are prescribed may es- the exchange of money for money-including tablish a special bank account exempt from nor- bank cheques and travellers' cheques-the sale of mal duty, into which the proceeds of short-term goods, other than under a credit contract or in the investments, as defined, may be paid. Duty is then course of carrying on a rental business, and clear- paid at the rate of 0.004 per cent per month on ing or settlement receipts of banks and other the average daily short-term investments, the pro- financial institutions. ceeds of which, or the payments or receipts relat- Members will note that charitable institutions ing to which, will be paid to the credit of that ac- are not to be treated under the clauses dealing count. A number of accounts are to be designated with exempt receipts and exempt accounts but as exempt accounts, and deposits to the credit of that the concessions provided to these bodies are these accounts will not be subject to duty. The to be by way of a refund at the end of each most important of these is the bankings of non- financial year for duty paid in excess of a pre- bank financial institutions. Thus the building scribed amount to financial institutions in respect societies, credit unions, credit providers. etc., will of duty paid on receipts. The Government intends not be subject to duty when they do their banking. to specify an amount of $20 for this purpose so This exemption was designed to provide equity that charitable institutions will be eligible for a between the various classes of financial refund of the excess over $20 of the relevant duty. institutions. A limited number of persons will be Special provisions have been included to enable able to apply for an exempt account, including charitable institutions whose duty payments ex- (152) 4834 4834[ASSEMBLY] ceed a specified amount in any quarter-the lar, the Government has the power to impose Government intends that an amount of $100 will regulations controlling the passing on of the duty be specified-to apply to the commissioner for a by registered financial institutions and short-term refund on a quarterly basis. dealers. This power is intended to be used only for This approach was designed to achieve the dual the protection of consumers and to ensure that objectives of providing appropriate relief to chari- financial institutions do not pass on more duty to ties and also greatly reducing the administrative individuals than they actually incur. workload of both the banks and the Commissioner To sum up. the Government's main aim in of State Taxation. Under this arrangement, chari- introducing the new duty is to keep the rate as ties also will not be required to produce the nor- low as possible and to encourage an active short- mal certificates required of holders of exempt ac-. term trading market in Western Australia. To counts. achieve the former, it was necessary to apply the Grouping provisions have been included in the rate "across the board" to all types of credits to Bill to prevent financial institutions from splitting accounts and to minimise the number of exemp- up their affairs in order to avoid the obligation to tions from the duty. register. A financial institution which is not re- However, in doing this, the Government has quired to register because its receipts are too low been conscious of the complex nature of financial may, nevertheless, be required to register if it is a institutions and Financial markets and has, member of a group and the group's receipts in a through consultation with the finance industry, year exceed $5 million or $416 666 in a month. endeavoured to achieve neutrality between the As I foreshadowed in my Budget speech, there various classes of financial institutions. are special provisions in the legislation for money The concessional rate of duty offered to short- market dealers to make it ineffective, from the term money market participants, together with viewpoint of duty payable, to artificially transfer the abolition of stamp duties on commercial bills transactions to another State while maintaining a and promissory notes, should encourage the re- presence in this State. turn of the short-term money market activity As I mentioned earlier, short-term dealers in which has left the State over the past 12 months Western Australia who are not prescribed will be and should ensure the money market remains required to pay the duty on one-tenth of their healthy in Western Australia. Australian-based operations. In New South While no taxing measure is ever popular, the Wales and Victoria, the level is one-third, and in Government believes that the abolition of certain South Australia it is one-tenth, so a dealer op- stamp duties, particularly the 1.8 per cent loan erating in all four States will be required to pay instrument and instalment purchase agreement duty on 86 2/3 per cent of his Australian-based duty, and their replacement with a more broadly operations. A dealer operating in a non-FID based tax at a very low rate, provides a much State, say Queensland, will also therefore be sub- more equitable taxation base. ject to the relevant duty to the extent to which he operates in a State which imposes the duty. Only I commend the Bill to the House. by eliminating all transactions in FID States can Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr O'Connor a dealer totally avoid the duty, and there is thus (Leader of the Opposition). no incentive for a dealer to artificially transfer his business to Queensland unless he intends to op- STAMP AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) erate solely in that State. Second Reading Another anti-avoidance provision is contained in clauses 29 and 30 of the Bill which impose an MR BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Treasurer) [4.22 obligation on persons depositing money with a P.M.] I move- financial institution which is not a registered That the Bill be now read a second time. inancial institution or an exempt financial This Bill introduces the amendments required to institution to register with the Commissioner of remove the liability for Stamp duty in respect of State Taxation if their deposits exceed $500 000 credit business, instalment purchase agreements, in 12 months and $100 000 in one month, and to and the issue and discounting of bills of pay the duty on those deposits. exchange-other than cheques-and promissory As I mentioned previously, the Bill gives the notes. The amendments follow a commitment Government a degree of regulatory power which made by the Government to abolish these duties will enable it to respond to situations which may in conjunction with the introduction of financial arise once the new duty is operational. In particu- institutions duty. [Thursday, 17 November 1983]183 4835

The Bill also proposes amendments which will introduced a stamp duty on policies of life enable duty to be levied on life insurance policies insurance. The amendment proposed here will issued outside Western Australia on behalf of per- bring the treatment of policies of life insurance sons resident in the State. issued outside Western Australia into line with The duties which the Government proposes to the treatment afforded other policies of insurance abolish arc similar to those which were abolished issued outside the State by ensuring that duty is in New South Wales, Victoria, and South Aus- payable on policies issued outside the State on be- tralia following the introduction of a financial half of residents of Western Australia. institutions duiy in those States, and reflect the I commend the Bill to members. maximum consessions the Government could Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr O'Connor make in view of the difficult budgetary situation. (Leader of the Opposition). The transactions which are currently liable for stamp duty under the credit business provisions APPROPRIATION (CONSOLIDATED contained in the Stamp Act include loans and REVENUE FUND) BILL other credit arrangements where the rate of In Commiae interest charged exceeds the declared rate of interest, and discount transactions. Resumed from 16 November. The Chairman of Committees (Mr Barnett) in the Chair; Mr Brian The stamp duty on high interest loans, instal- Burke (Treasurer) in charge of the Bill. ment purchase agreements, and other credit ar- rangements has been widely criticised as being Progress was reported after Division 20 had both highly inefficient and inequitable. It dis- been agreed to. criminates against high interest Finance by im- Divisions 21 and 22-Deputy Premier's Office, posing stamp duty at the rate of 1.8 per cent of 5 127 000; Industrial Development, the amount Financed. A $5000 personal loan $10 716 000-put and passed. therefore attracts duty of $90. A $10000 loan for Division 23: Resources Development, the purchase of a car would attract duty of $180. $2408000- Instalment purchase agreements, including hire- Mr O'CONNOR: I notice here provision for a purchase agreements, attract duty at the same rate. These stamp duties impact most heavily on number of temporary assistants and graduate as- sistants. It would appear they were provided for those who are least able to afford them;, that is, last year and are not additional, but I would like people who must resort to the use of high interest Development and finance. The Government welcomes the oppor- the Minister for Economic Technology to comment. tunity to remove this impost. The removal of the stamp duty on the issue of Mr BRYCE: It is quite right of the Leader of promissory notes and bills of exchange-except the Opposition to assume that the members of cheques-and on discount transactions will assist staff referred to were provided for last year. For local money market operators who, with the re- many years there has been a tradition to recruit consultants and other people by contracting them moval of the liability for stamp duty on similar to the Resources Development Department or transactions in those States where financial more correctly into the research development sec- institutions duty operates, were faced with a de- tion of the industrial development side. This is cline in short-term money market activity in this particularly so of engineers. They are employed State. Action was needed to ensure that local on term contracts, and a lot of the members of commerce did not become increasingly dependent staff involved here are in that category. They are on support from the Eastern States money mar- referred to as consultants rather than public ser- kets. The Bill also removes the liability for duty vants. The temporary assistants were part of the on bills of exchange and promissory notes drawn staff I inherited, but I could not identify them in or made out of western Australia and duly specific terms. stamped with ad valorem duty under the law of another State or Territory or of the Common- Divisiom 23 put and passed. wealth. Division 24: Labour and Industry, $5 009 000- It is proposed to abolish the duties outlined Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- above from I January 1984 at an estimated cost Mr CLARKO: Money is allocated under this of $7 million in 1983-84 and $17 million in a full item for two ministerial advisers. The sum shown year. for last year is SI11 726 and the amount for this The other measure contained in the Bill relates year is $69 600. The sum of $80 000 is presum- to the recent amendment to the Stamp Act which ably for the salaries of the two advisers in that 4836 4136[ASSEMBLY] field. I lake it that Mr McGinty is one of those they wished to speak. 1 then called the vote and two advisers. Overall it is interesting to note that we have now passed that item. there has been a fall from the amount allocated Mr CLARKO: I appreciate that point. I occu- last year of $3 515459 to pied your Chair, Mr Chairman, as you know, for $3 510 700-$5 000-despite the increase of many years and I occasionally did what you just $70000 for Ministerial advisers. I presume that, did. Apparently you were seeking, when you in a sense, we have had a transfer of part of the called the Division, for me to mention the Div- wages from those people who have suffered the in- isions to which I wished to speak. I was just sit- iquitous and evil senior public servants' salary cut. ting back waiting to speak on item 2. Perhaps I They in fact are paying the salaries of those Min- did not correctly pick up the approach you are isterial advisers for the department. using. I am not questioning your approach; I am Mr RUSHTON: Would the Minister give us sure it is correct, but I wonder whether you would an understanding relating to this item? Last year allow me to perhaps talk to those items. I do not the staff number was 257 and this year it is only intend to keep the Chamber very long, but I want 184. Would he explain the variation and where to ask the Minister for an explanation of those the responsibilities have been transferred? items. Mr PARKER: Since the change of Govern- Chairman's Ruling ment there have been some changes in The CHAIRMAN: I would very much like to responsibilities in that area. The current position indulge the member, but I cannot do so. The Min- is that the division of industrial training was ister has already indicated that he is happy to pro- transferred from the Department of Labour and vide the answers you require at a later stage. We Industry to the Department of Employment and have already passed the vote. I ask the member to Administrative Services, although the location has think very carefully so that in the future if he not changed. Administratively, and in terms of its wishes to talk on a particular item, he has the op- responsibilities, the staff have been transferred to portunity to do so. the new department. All the new staff are now employed by the Department of Employment and Point of Order Administrative Services. From memory, I think Mr RUSHTON: Could I please ask a the figure involved is approximately 60 to 65; I question? Yesterday when we were debating the can obtain the exact figure if the member requires Budget we were given the opportunity to speak to it. the Division and then to each item. Some minor changes have been made in the The CHAIRMAN- What is your point of area of weights and measures. Some staff have order? been transferred to the Department of Consumer Mr RUSHTON: My point of order is that I Affairs. Of course, in the long term it is envisaged certainly did not hear, and apparently the mem- that persons on the staff will be involved with the did not hear, you call "items" Government's commitments to occupational ber for Karrinyup himself to item 1. health and safety and the staff will come from after he addressed other departments to the Department of Labour The CHAIRMAN: What is your point of and Industry. However, this has not yet taken order? place. In general terms, the division of industrial Mr RUSHTON: My point of order is that 1 am training and the salary of the weights and just querying the matter. Mr Chairman, did you measures section has been transferred out of the in fact call "items" after item I to which we had department. just addressed ourselves, and to which the Minis- Division 24 put snd passed. ter just replied? We expected to go on to item 2 if we wished to do so. Do you want us to nominate Palmt of Order each item on which we want to speak as soon as Mr CLARKO: Mr Chairman, would you in- the Division is dealt with? dulge me in a point of order? I really wanted to The CHAIRMAN: In answer to the point of make some comments on other Divisions. This is order, I certainly do. the first set of them. Could I just obtain some in- formation from the Minister with regard to items Committee Resumed 2 and 4? Division 25: Industrial Commission, The CHAIRMAN: I am very sorry, but the SI 411000- situation is that I was not aware of that. I did call Mr RUSHTON: I just want to emphasise the 'itemns" for members to indicate the ones to which point that in this Division there is basically very [Thursday, 17 November 19831 434837 little change and that indicates a reduction in average $20 000 each or whether there is another actual terms in the provision made for the Indus- explanation for these figures. trial Commission. Would the Minister explain I take it that the legislation befiore the Parlia- this? ment will probably lead to an increased role for Mr PARKER: I will perhaps deal firstly with the Industrial Commission. Perhaps the Minister the point raiscd by the member for Dale and then, may be able to advise if, for example, the by way of interjection, I would be happy to ac- teachers' tribunal is to be abolished and whether commodate any questions the member for it will come within the ambit of the Industrial Karrinyup wants to ask in relation to Division 24. Commission. It may be that it will be brought The CHAIRMAN: I would prefer Division 24 over at a later date and has been budgeted for to be discussed behind the Chair otherwise we will separately. Perhaps next year it will be shown keep going backwards. within the Industrial Commission and then we Mr PARKER: The only reason for reduced will see a larger group under this heading. costs in the Industrial Commission area is because The second point to which I refer relates to the of reductions in salaries and allowances which five industrial commissioners. I noticed that their have occurred, Of course, industrial com- wages have dropped from $270 000 to missioners' salaries are well in excess of the level $262 000-a fall of 18 000. This is obviously due at which they would be subject to the 10 per cent to the senior officers' pay cuts. I would have cut, as would be the salaries of many other thought the decrease might have been greater officers, including the President, registrar, assist- than $8 000 unless the impending rises have been ant registrar, and so on. These people really form taken into account. The Minister may not have the bulk of the personnel of the commission. In- the figures. and that would not greatly concern evitably some reductions occur in that area due to me, but perhaps he could make a comment about the number of pay periods in this financial year the five commissioners. being less than the number for the previous financial year. There has certainly not been a Mr PARKER: In relation to the number of reduction in terms of the facilities made available clerks typists, and assistants I cannot answer as to to the Industrial Commission. Of course, when we the reason that there is provision for only 19 as finally come to the wash-up of these matters at opposed to 22 last year. However, I will refer the the end of the financial year, legislation currently matter to the Minister concerned. before the Legislative Council seeks to abolish a In relation to the question raised about what number of these bodies and bring them within the will happen to staff of various authorities when aegis of the Industrial Commission, and this can they are brought under the one authority, I under- be dealt with then. The Industrial Commission as stand the position is that once the teachers' such will be a very different picture, but certainly tribunal, the railway classifications board, and the no reduction has been made in the facilities or Public Service Arbitrator are brought under the staffing which has been given to the Industrial Industrial Commission it is intended there will be Commission this year as opposed to last year. a Government salaries division with an industrial Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- commissioner appointed as its head. This proposal is contained in a Bill before the other House at Mr CLARKO: Mr Chairman, I am trying to the moment. Once the administrative arrange- overcome my disappointment with your previous ments have been finalised, the accounts will be decision. amended over a period of time to bring the de- The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps at this stage I partments under the proper heading. On receipt could help the member. Another opportunity will of the accounts for the year ended 30 June 1984, be afforded to him on the third reading of the Bill one will find those accounts will reflect the staff and he can chase up these loose ends that perhaps employed under the Industrial Commission. That slip through unobtrusively when we deal with that is based on legislation currently before the Parlia- matter. ment. Mr CLARKO: I must say that in the past I In relation to the salaries of the industrial com- have regarded every decision you have made as missioners, I advise that the Act to reduce the pay exemplary. The number of clerks, typists and as- of senior Public Servants did not come into force sistants, has fallen from 22 to 19, and this has re- until I September. Secondly, the salaries can suilted in a reduction in expenditure this year of reflect other issues such as annual leave, long ser- approximately 162 000. I do not know whether vice leave, etc. One often finds that people on that the clerks, typists, assistants and other staff would level of salary have not taken their leave for a 4838 4838[ASSEMBLY) long time and this can have a great impact on the Mr PARKER: In relation to the specific item budget. I do not have the details requested and I to which the member for Karrinyup addressed his will ask the Minister in another place to give the comments, there are other staffing costs such as information toathe member for Karrinyup. payroll tax, etc. Obviously an increase in that Division 25 put and passed. area would reflect the increase in the number of staff and an increase of $148 000 to a total of Division 26: Public Service Arbitration, $823 000 in those other associated areas of $127 000-put and passed. staffing costs. Division 27: Industrial Relations Service. In relation to the more general point the mem- $1 000 000- ber for Karrinyup made, I am not familiar with Item 1: Salaries Wages and Allowances- the overall statistics that are kept on these mat- Mr O'CONNOR: I wish to refer to the six ters. However, they are kept by the Department temporary assistants and the eight vacant pos- of Premier and Cabinet and returns are made to itions. Obviously the provision for 6 temporary as- that department on a monthly basis. I know that sistants was made last year and I have no query in the Treasurer has provided some of that infor- that regard. However, vacant positions were not mation to the Chamber. The industrial relations included last year. They have been included this service , as members opposite would know, was from the Public Service year and this provision involves eight people at a only transferred recently Board. It has had its role upgraded both by the cost of $139 000. previous Government and by this Government. I ask the Minister if he could give some indi- We place a great deal of weight on that service cation of what those eight positions entail and and regard it as important to employees for advice when they are expected to be filled. on industrial relations matters. I presume that Mr PARKER: I must admit to the Leader of that is the reason for the eight vacant positions. the Opposition that I do not know the answer to Based on my own experience the fact that there the question- In relation to my own department are eight vacancies in one area could mean that there were a number of vacancies and most of eight people from other departments have been them have been filled. I do not know whether brought in to fill them. The Government has these eight vacant positions have been filled. I will made it clear that there will be areas of increases refer the matter to the Minister concerned for his in staff where Government priorities accord with reply. the increase. Those priorities are not priorities set Item 2: Other Staffing Costs- by the previous Government or department heads. Mr CLARKO: Staffing costs have increased Division 27 put and passed. from $79 000 to $105 000-an increase of Division 28: Crown Law, $19 313 000- $26 000. My comments are similar to those made Mr MENSAROS: I refer to a matter which I by my leader regarding the eight vacant positions have canvassed about two or three times since I listed in item 1. In a small work force of only 40 have been in this Parliament and, I must admit, a people there appears to be eight to 10 new pos- matter about which I have been fairly itions. I wonder how that fits in with the overall unsuccesful. However, I never give up hope and proposals by the Government to Fill only one out with a new Government, new Ministers, and a of every two vacancies created. I understand the new Attorney General I might have a better hear- Treasurer has said previously that where there ing. It concerns the appointment of justices of the might have been 2 000 vacancies, only 1 000 will peace. I think that all members would probably be Filled. have the same, or similar, problems that I have I am told that in the Education Department, in because if anything needs reform-being a prag- terms of teaching positions, that something like matic question as opposed to a theoretical 99 per cent of the vacancies will be filled. That is question-it is definitely the situation relating to only slightly below complete replacement. I the appointment of justices of the peace. understand the situation with the Public Health The Act under which the appointment to the Department is similar. Those departments form commission of justices is made-normally called the greater part of the Public Service and there is justices of the peace-is more than 80 years old. to be no change in staffing numbers: yet we are to One can appreciate that at the turn of the century employ an extra eight to 10 people more in a when the population of the State would have been small department of 40. Therefore, the Govern- around 40000, an entirely different environment ment is not getting very close to its staff replace- and conditions prevailed than do today or have ment of 50 per cent only. done for some time. Nevertheless, the circum- [Thursday, 17 November 1983J)83 4839 stances and the conditions of the appointment in the country are mainly well-to-do citizens who have not changed. An applicant must go to his operate large farms, shops, or similar. When those local member of Parliament, who in turn rec- people retire they usually come to the metropoli- ommends him-for the last 10 years, to the At- tan area and, being wealthy people, they settle in torney General but prior to that to the Under Sec- the electorates of Nedlands, Dalkeith, South retary of the Premier's Department. Of course, Perth, Cottesloe, and Floreat. Therefore, the pro- one can see the logic in that system as it applied portionate number of justices in these electorates at the turn of the century. With a population of is much larger than those in, say, Ascot or around 40000 1 suppose most people knew each Bayswater, for example. The member for Ascot other. It was quite togical to suppose that the would have a much better chance of having some- member of Parliament who had been elected to one appointed in his electorate than have the represent people in Parliament could say whether members for South Perth, Nedlands, Kalamunda, an applicant was a solid citizen and one who de- Floreat, and other members representing affluent served to be appointed as a justice of the peace. suburbs. 1 think this anomaly should be remedied. Today that is not the situation. One cannot know The system of making an appointment based on all of one's 18 000 or 20 000 constituents and, the recommendation of the member of Parliament therefore, one must make the recommendation is already an anachronism. We cannot know all of based on the application form. 1, for one, arrange our constituents, at least not in the metropolitan an appointment with every applicant, unless I area. I feel it is a little hypocritical to write to the know a person very well, in order to make some Attorney General recommending an applicant if I judgment of that person. The application is then do not know the person and if I only met him as a transmitted with my recommendation to the At- result of his application. Therefore, the principle, torney General. which would have been correct 80 years ago when However, the appointments are very few and the Justices Act was created in 1902, is definitely far between. Usually the reason given for not ap- not appropriate today. I suggest the Attorney pointing an applicant, at least in my experience, General should look at this subject; perhaps local -this has been the stereotype reason-is that the government would be the right authority to rec- electorate already has a disproportionate number ommend a person for appointment. Local of justices of the peace. I have been given to authorities are nearest to the people and the coun- understand by the Under Secretary of the Depart- cillors, combined with officers of the local auth- ment of Premier and Cabinet that not only is ority, should have a better knowledge of these ap- there a closed number for justices within the plicants. State, but also this closed number is proportioned The Attorney General should look also at the within electorates. I suppose this provision may system of proportionate appointment of justices of have had some merit 80 years ago but it does not the peace according to electorates. Their services have any today. are needed in diverse locations according to the People who want the services of a justice of the place of work and not the residence of the appli- peace to sign as a qualified witness some attest- cant. Many of the applications have been made on ation, statement, or statutory declaration, do not the basis that a particular person is involved in walk the streets to Find one. The justices of the work which necessitates a number of signatures peace cannot have signs outside their houses say- on documents by qualified witnesses and no other ing that they are justices of the peace. I am sure justice is employed in the organisation concerned. local government by-laws would not allow this be- Alternatively, if there is a justice, that person is cause most local authorities have by-laws against occasionally in the country and is not always advertising a business from a residence unless the available when the service is required. Such a property is suitably zoned. To argue that the limit situation has nothing to do with an applicant's on the number of justices should be proportioned residence. These circumstances should be con- according to electorates is unrealistic. sidered by the Attorney General because The majority. of justices are appointed in the otherwise we place ourselves in a position, country where the need is greater. In the metro- irrespective of whether it is the Government or politan area we have a sufficient number of sti- the Opposition, where some of our constituents pendiary magistrates who look after the local may harbour a suspicion that, because their appli- courts, courts of petty sessions, and the like. From cation has been rejected, the member has not rec- the point of view of community service the ommended them. justices are probably only used here and there to I have asked the Attorney General how many bail out someone charged by the police. They very applications, by electorates, have been received seldom sit on the bench. Those people appointed and how many he has granted or recommended to 4840 4840(ASSEM BLY] the Governor For appointment, He was kind Section 6 of the Justices Act under which all enough to provide that information but I have yet justices are appointed gives the Governor very to check it with him. I do not want specific names wide discretion in this regard. It reads, in part, as to be mentioned in this Chamber and therefore I follow- cannot go into further details. However, the At- The Governor may appoint such and so torney General has told me that during the term many justices, male and femnale, as may from of this present Government I have recommended time to time be deemed necessary to keep the eight applicants and three of them have been ap- peace in the State of Western Australia. pointed. To my recollection none of the applicants The discretion is very wide indeed; I do not think I recommended during the term of this Govern- it would be possible to have wider discretion. ment has been appointed to the commission of the Although this Act contains regulation making peace. power, I doubt whether there are regulations. Unless the provisions and circumstances of the Mr Mensaros: It is a custom. appointment are looked at and changed, it can re- M r GR I LL: There is a set of criteria. bound on members of Parliament who have to go back to their constituents and say, "Your appli- Mr Thompson: They adhere rigidly to it. cation has been refused". I direct a question to Mr GR[LL: I take the points which have been the Minister representing the Attorney General in made. I cannot imagine there would be regu- this place and ask him to provide the detailed con- lations which would govern this matter. It appears ditions of the appointment so that we can say to to be dealt with by a set of criteria which change our constituents, "I do not think you measure up from time to time. to the appointment, because these are the con- The member for Floreat would recall that two ditions laid down by the Attorney General". Our or three years ago the criteria changed in respect constituents would then understand. of the appointment of public servants as justices In certain circumstances I took it upon myself of the peace. Whereas previously it was thought to dissuade applicants from applying. An example proper to appoint public servants to that position, of such a case would be where I perceive an appli- two or three years ago the criteria changed. Other cant would like the appointment not because of changes of that sort have occurred Over the years. service provided to the community, but to gain The present criteria are not hard and fast and kudos, or the like. If, as a result of service to the in many respects the criteria are undergoing public, a person deserves some reward, this should change at the moment. In fact a number of ap- not be dealt with by appointing him as a com- pointments which have been made recently would missioner of the peace. Rather an award should not have fallen within the criteria adopted prior to be made and it is up to a member of Parliament the last election. In that respect, I refer to my own to recommend to the Premier of the day that a appointment as a justice of the peace which was person should receive a minor or major award ac- carried out without much formality. cording to the services he has provided. That hap- The situation is in a state of flux at present. I pens quite frequently. understand it is being reviewed and I take the points I ask the Minister to convey these comments to made by the member. Many of those points the Attorney General. Unfortunately it is not the are valid and I shall refer them to the Attorney custom in this Chamber either during the Ad- General so that he may receive a considered re- sponse. dress-in-Reply or the Budget debate for queries to be responded to by Ministers in most cases. How- Division 28 put and passed. ever, that is the custom in the Legislative Council Divisions 29 to 32-Corporate Affairs Office, and it is a very healthy one. All members who $3 154 000; Office of Titles, $5 483 000l; Public have had ministerial experience would recall re- Trust Office, S2 996 000; Law Reform Com- ceiving queries from the Leader of the upper mission, 546 0011-put and passed. House, to which Ministers must respond. I hope Division 33: Legal Aid Commission, that, as the Attorney General is in the Legislative SI 277000- Council which adopts that custom, he will re- Mr O'CONNOR: Under the heading "Salaries spond to the matters I have raised. and Establishment", from I July 1983, there has Mr GRILL: I have made a note of the points been an increase of approximately $400 000 from made by the member for Floreat and will refer S1.69 million to $2.040 million. The increase can them to the Attorney General for a considered re- be found mainly in three areas which include the sponse. provision for salary adjustments-183 000-and [Thursday, 17 November 19831 484184 the provision for new appointments-$204 000. oner per day for the whole year. and this rep- Could the Minister give some information as to resents an enormous burden on the community. In the new appointments? The increase is rather sub- other words, it costs more to keep a prisoner in stantial for this area. prison than it costs to keep a person in most I do not object strongly to this, but a substan- average quality hotels or motels in this State. tial increase has occurred in private practitioners' That cost must have risen significantly and I ask fees. The figure has increased from $5.123 million the Minister to tell us, if he is able, what is the to $6.891 million; that is an increase of approxi- current cost per head of prison population, be- mately $1.7 million. Could the Minister explain cause that figure would be revealing. whether that is a temporary increase which is not A member: We could keep them at the likely to recur next year or whether it is possible Sheraton for that. that type of expenditure increase can be expected Mr HASSELL: If we made a block booking at in the future? If the latter is the case, what are the Sheraton and said we would keep it full for the reasons for it? the whole year, we probably could accommodate Administration expenses have increased sub- prisoners there at the price we presently accom- stantially also. They have increased from modate them in our prisons. Unfortunately the 5668 279 to $1.16 million. Could the Minister ex- prison cost would be rising each year because we plain the reason for the substantial increase of have succeeded, as we should have, in providing almost 100 per cent in that area? new institutions. We badly needed the new Mr GRILL: It appears the notes I have been institutions and still need another one. It will cost given are incomplete in respect of Division 33. 1 a great deal to replace the Fremantle Prison. The shall ask the Attorney General to respond in guess work estimates of replacing it are between writing to the Leader of the Opposition. $40 million and $50 million. We must make sure Division 33 put and passed. that when that replacement institution is provided Division 34-Probation and Parole Service, it will be designed in such a way that it achieves $2 433 009-put and passed. all that the new Canning Vale prison achieves in terms of accommodation and management, but Division 35: Prisons, $47 097 000- reduces the burden of staff costs. Mr HASSELL: I raise with the Minister rep- As I have said, one of the most revealing fig- resenting the Minister for Prisons the question of ures is the cost per head per day to maintain pris- the reason that this vote has increased oners in Western Australia. Some of our prisoners significantly. The expenditure last year was some are contained in quite unsophisticated prisons $40 million and this year's expenditure is $47 such as the simple little institutions at Wyndham million. That represents a 15 or 16 per cent in- crease-a great increase indeed, and not all of it and Roebourne, the later of which thank goodness will soon be replaced. These prisons impose a accounted for by any means by the increase in staff costs. tremendous burden on the main prison system in the metropolitan area as well as does the main- It may be, as I know myself, that a lot of this taining of prison farms and industries. increase is related to the opening of new prisons and institutions at a great financial burden. One The other aspect of course is that the cost is of the unfortunate aspects of the opening of new worked out for all prisoners by dividing the total and modern prisons has been that the staffing re- budget for the department by the average number quirement per head of prison population is much of prisoners for the year. In fact, additional and greater, substantial costs are not taken into account or at- despite the best efforts of the designers , than the efficiency of manning levels achieved in tributed any value at all, and I refer to capital old prisons such as Fremantle. We would like to costs. My guess is that we probably are paying see the department out of that prison but know it $70 a head per day and I am sure this is a matter cannot be equalled by the new prisons such as of common concern and will continue to be so for Canning Vale in terms of staffing levels. One of some years ahead. the issues exercising my concern in relation to the I am glad the Attorney General in his capacity new, major, multipurpose prison that we an- as Minister for Prisons has reinforced the deter- nounced for Canning Vale, and which the mination of the previous Government to seek Government has followed up, was how it might be ways to reduce the rate of imprisonment. It is an designed to improve the staffing efficiency. objective we had. It is terribly hard to achieve, About a year or two ago the cost of but we do have a high rate of imprisonment in imprisonment was $50 and a few cents per pris- WA. 4842 4842[ASSEMBLY]

Some of the reasons for that high rate are not Another major item relates to supplies. The in- as simple as appear on the surface, and neither crease is in respect of stock purchases- are the solutions. There has been a lot of dis- $120 000-and power, fuel, and water provisions cussion both in the area of prisons and other as well as the provision of cleaning for new circles about the removal of drunkenness as an of- prisons at Greenotugh and Roebourne-$250 000. fence as a means of reducing the rate of They are the major items of that increase;, over 50 imprisonment and as a means of reducing the per cent relates to salaries and wages. number of Aboriginal people confined to prison. The Leader of the Opposition asked a question The very unfortunate aspect of doing that is that about 18 prison superintendents. I can only sus- experience in other places has shown it then cre- pect that the increase in the number of superin- ates another problem which has to be solved in tendents is to supervise the new prisons being another way. opened. I will need to find out the other infor- The provision in the law relating to drunken- mation in respect of the reduction of two in the ness-offensive as drunkennes is to ' somec number of deputy and assistant superintendents. people-in many respects are protective pro- The increase in respect of the legal adviser is obvi- visions to save drunken people, particularly Abor- ously for a full year's pay for this person. igines, from worse consequences than the night or In the last few years there has been a realisa- so they spend in the lockup, tion that prisons need to be upgraded generally. I ask the Minister to comment On those Over the decades there has been a situation where financial and general issues. society at large and Governments of all per- MrT O'CONNOR: From the Estimates I see suasions have neglected prisons, and an example that the allowance for prison superintendents has of that is the Fremantle Prison. There has been a increased a little. Is that as a result of an increase lot of criticism about the Fremantle Prison and I in the salaries of superintendents or in the number do not wish to echo that. However, I do know a of superintendents? The increase seems to be out fair bit about the prison at Kalgoorlie, which has of the trend of salary increases. not received the same sort of publicity. Further down it appears that a legal officer has The conditions which apply in the Kalgoorlie been appointed, and I assume the appointment prison lockup-that is the prison which is adjac- will be permanent. I do not query the need for ent to the police station-have been at times hor- such an officer because obviously there is good rendous. On some occasions up to 30 people have reason for one to be appointed to the deptartment. been crammed into a small room with a low cei- I notice also that the deputy and assistant ling, often on a hot night and with only one pan. superintendent have had their salaries changed. I Often upwards of 30 men have been crammed wonder whether the Minister can tell me the together in this room with three tiered bunks. The reason one salary is up and the ot her is down. conditions were like those we read about, those suffered by OUr forefathers when they came out Mr GRILL: The member for Cottesloc indi- here in chains in the 18th century. Until cated that prison costs had risen by I5 per cent. I a year or think it is 17 / per cent. Nevertheless, it is still a so ago that those conditions prevailed in Kalgoorl ie. significant increase. Over the next few years, with the implementation of the new prisons, we can ex- Over the years there has been general neglect. I pect that this figure will go up. think it is a neglect that society now regrets. So- In respect of the question as to why there was ciety does not get much benefit out of putting such an increase this year, I indicate that the many people into gaol, especially young people. largest component by far is salaries and wages; I can remember Tom Hartrey. a former revered they went up by $4.7 million, and of that, member of this House and a member of the legal $809 000 is attributable to the change with an ad- profession, always appearing in front of a jury ditional 48 new staff. A cost of a further $1.411I and referring to prisons as "those universities of million will bc incurred with respect to salary and crime". I have always thought and argued wage adjustments. strongly in front of judges and juries that they The other large item relates to grants, needed to think carefully before sending young subsidies, and transfer payments: an increase of men to prison because with any young man who is $1.763 million. Two subheadings are shown under sent to prison for any length of time there is a that item, one is for the replacement of the East- high probability that he will come out of his ern Goldfields Regional Prison-S 140 000-and internment as a hardened individual. SI1540000 is for a repayment in respect of the Another area that worries me about prisons at Greenough River prison. present is the drug problem that seems to sur- [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 484344 round them. This matter has come to the atten- Progress tion of the community and r would like to see the Progress reported and leave given to sit again at situation where Government members, in associ- a later stage of the sitting, on motion by Mr ation with Opposition members, could look at this Tonkin (Leader of the House). horrendous problem. (Continued on page 4845) Mr O'Connor: It is very big money when you QUESTIONS look at the whole State. We have to look at our priorities. Questions were taken at this stage. Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 7.16 p.m. Mr GRILL: The previous Government set us on the right track in respect of prisons, after DOOR TO DOOR (SALES) AMENDMENT many years of neglect. I think having the At- BILL torney General as the Minister for Prisons con- Firms the fact that this Government will spend Introduction and First Reading more timebo prisons in the next few years. Some- Bill introduced, on motion without notice by thing is being done at last. Mr Tonkin (Minister for Consumer Affairs), and Division 35 put and passed. read a first time. Division 36: Country Water Supplies. Sewerage, Second Reading Irrigation and Drainage, $93 037 000- MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for Mr MENSAROS: I would like to make some Consumer Affairs) 17.16 p.m.]: I move- brief remarks about the comparison of the Budget That the Bill be now read a second time. figures with the increased charges which were introduced prior to the financial year. We all The Government has been extremely concerned as know that according to Government policy-and to the nature of numerous complaints lodged with I would not criticise it-there is to be an amalga- the Department of Consumer Affairs concerning mation of the Metropolitan Water Authority with the operations of some door-to-door selling oper- the Country Water undertaking section of the en- ations, particularly those engaged in the sale of home improvements and pest control. gineering division of the Public Works Depart- ment. I have commented to the House on a previous occasion about the activities of modern style home My only concern about this amalgamation, improvements and East West Promotions being which was the policy of the previous Government operated by the aptly named Norman Cheetham as well, is that it is a well-known fact that country and Jennifer Ann McCoy. water undertakings are heavily subsidised by the Mr Clarko: Come on! You have done that one a Government and that subsidy has been roughly fair bit. half of the total expenditure, whereas the Metro- politan Water Authority is a self-sufficient Mr Old: How many companies do they have? Government utility. The metropolitan authority is Mr TONKIN: These firms have constantly about three limes as large as the country auth- sought to circumvent the application of the Door ority and if the two are amalgamated, it would to Door (Sales) Act in transactions negotiated by mean the Government utility would have a deficit their sales personnel. They do this by initial can- of about at least one-sixth and possibly more, vassing and arranging a subsequent appointment which would have to be covered by subsidy. on the pretext of conducting market research or a survey. In response to questions I have asked, the Min- ister did not say the Government would not con- The Supreme Court has found that if an agree- tinue this subsidy: neither did he confirm that it ment is reached for the firm to attend at a later would. He said it would be considered in a proper time when a contract for house cladding or roof- ing is signed, often after high pressure sales tech- way when the time came. I know from experi.ence niques over -many hours, section 6 of the preseiit that the habit of Treasury, no matter who is the Act effectively excludes the operation of the Door Under Treasurer, is to cut subsidies. to Door (Sales) Act in giving a "cooling off' period. Leave to Continue Speech This section makes the Act inapplicable where Mr Chairman, I seek leave to continue my re- there is a request by the consumer for the trader marks at a later stage of this day's sitting. to attend his place of residence. The Leave granted. interpretation placed on the word "request" 4844 4844ASSEMBDLY] makes no distinction if that request is solicited by agreement", it will in practice not adversely affect the deceptive practices of firms such as East West the reputable operators in the door-to-door indus- Promotions. try. I would like to interpolate here and comment The Government recognises that this is a loop- that most door-to-door salesmen and firms are of hole in the Act which must be closed. This Bill, a highly reputable nature. I can cite two therefore, seeks to amend section 6 to make the examples, and one is the famous vacuum cleaner Act inapplicable only where there is an unsolici- firm Electrolux Pty. Ltd., which has sold door-to- ted request on the part of a consumer for the door exclusively for many years. Indeed, com- trader to attend his home. plaints come to the company when the salesman is overdue. Another example that springs to mind A definition of the word "unsolicited" is in- are the sellers of World Book Encyclopaedia. I cluded in the Bill to provide that where the re- am sure members could add many other reputable quest arises from telephone calls or other com- bodies. The fact that I do not mention them is munication initiated by the vendor or dealer, it merely a tribute to my fallible memory and not a will be deemed solicited. comment on those other companies. However, advertising to the public at large or I want to emphasise that, as in all consumer to a section of the public will not fall within the protection laws, we are protecting the consumer ambit of being a solicited request. This allows in- from unscrupulous people and, further, we are dividuals to respond to normal advertising pro- protecting the bona fide trader from unfair com- motions with transactions made at the home re- petition. sultant upon such response falling within the ambit of the Act. This definition has been successfully applied for a number of years in other States. It will ensure In such instances the need to provide a cooling that unless the transaction is a straight cash off period is not apparent because the consumer is transaction, the Act will apply to it, responding to his own decision to purchase an and a con- sumer will get a cooling-off period. item and not the inducements of fast talking Transactions which will be financed or paid for at a later time salesmen. will fall within the ambit of the Act. The provision proposed in the Bill is almost This is specifically designed to catch the dis- identical to a similar provision in New South reputable Wales which has been operating for many years operators such as East West Pro- motions, the vast bulk without complaint. of whose business would be financed or to be paid for on completion of work. One further amendment is made to the princi- These two amendments to the Door to Door pal Act by this Bill. It relates to the definition of (Sales) Act the term "credit purchase agreement". The pres- are being made as a result of diffi- culties encountered by the Department of Con- ent definition has proved unworkable; it is tortu- sumer Affairs in enforcing the Act, and are de- ous and convoluted. it is incapable of precise ap- signed to correct perceived deficiencies in the plication and only leaves vendors and consumers legislation. The Government, however, is also con- uncertain as to whether a cooling off period is ap- scious of the desire to achieve uniformity in this plicable under the Act. as with other areas of consumer affairs. It is. The present definition requires consideration of therefore, together with the other States, working whether the agreement required payment within on uniform door-to-door sales legislation. This is the month next following the month in which the currently with the joint committee of Parliamen- agreement is made. tary Counsel and I would anticipate moving as a This is often difficult to determine and some result of its deliberations early next year. In the firms have deliberately drafted their agreements meantime, through this Bill the Government will to exclude the Act's operation by their requiring move to eradicate deficiencies in the Act. payment to be made within the specified period. I add the comment I made the other night dur- These deliberate actions have resulted in many ing debate on the Land Drainage Amendment Bill consumers being denied protection in such when the member for Floreat criticised the transact ions. Government for having brought patchwork legis- The Bill amends the definition to provide lation here instead of waiting for the day of per- simply that a "credit purchase agreement" will in- fection to dawn: We want to improve the protec- dlude any agreement under which the whole of tion given both to consumers and to reputable the purchase price is not paid at or before the traders as soon as we can and not wait until model time at which the agreement is made. While this legislation is introduced, which may be some time will expand the definition of "credit purchase off. [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 484584

1 believe very strongly that this Bill is worthy of now supplied by the Public Works Department. being passed by the Parliament. their rates will increase considerably. This rep- Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Thompson. resents yet another problem that begs solution. Various other components present the danger BILLS (4): RETURNED that charges will be increased for country con- sumers during this financial year. I have queried 1E Builders' Registration Amendment Bill. this matter thoroughly through parliamentary 2. Land Drainage Amendment Bill. questions. I have asked about the policy on the 3. Local Government Superannuation amalgamation of the authorities. I have not re- Amendment Bill. ceived an assurance from the Minister that as a Bills returned from the Council without result of the amalgamation certain areas will amendment. cease to be duplicated when the work is carried 4. Acts Amendment (Student Guilds and As- out by the one authority. Obviously the same re- sociations) Bill. search testing and accountancy work, etc., must be carried out, and a fewer number of people will Bill returned from the Council with be required. However, I have not obtained an as- amend men ts. surance that that will be the case, although the reason given for amalgamation is that savings and APPROPRIATION (CONSOLIDATED efficiencies will come about. It seems that the one REVENUE FUND) BILL authority is intended to be more efficient as a re- sult of the creation of more jobs in its own area, In Committe but consumers are not interested in such ef- Resumed from an earlier stage of the sitting. ficiency; they are interested in the level of The Chairman of Committees (Mr Barnett) in charges. Therefore, if the amalgamation takes the Chair; Mr Brian Burke (Treasurer) in charge place in the search for greater efficiency, the ag- of the Bill. gregate number of staff ought to be reduced even Division 36: Country Water Supplies. Sewerage, if by wastage only. Irrigation and Drainage, $93 037 000- A danger exists in regard to the imposition of Progress was reported after Division 36 had the three per cent levy. At present customers of been partly considered. country water -undertakings do not have the levy paid on their behalf because the supply authority Mr MENSAROS: As I was saying earlier, the is a Government department, and Government de- Treasury is not in the habit of easily continuing partments are not required to pay that levy. How- subsidies to cover merges between various depart- ever, if these people are covered by an indepen- ments or authorities. I recall that the arrange- dent water authority, they will be subjected to the ment for the amalgamation of the old State Elec- levy. Therefore, their charges will increase tricity Commission with the Fuel and Power automatically by at least three per cent. Even if Commission was that the cost of the commission the Government continued to pay its 50 per cent which would become part of the SEC and would subsidy, the charges would increase by 1.5 per not be borne by the customers of the SEC, but cent. would be further subsidised by the Treasury. In other words, it would be like it was before the Only the day before yesterday, the Premier said amalgamation and the cost would be footed by quite proudly that the handling of the FID tax the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Yet after one would not cost a great deal because the Treasury year of subsidy payment-only to some ex- will have a tremendous scheme for self- financing. tent-the SEC had to foot the bill for those ex- In financial terms, I am sure the use of the term .'selF-financing" penses; in other words, the consumers had to pay. by the Premier was incorrect. I The same will happen. I suspect, with the country think what the Premier meant to say was that the water undertakings and the Metropolitan Water Treasury will charge the various arms of Govern- Authority. The subsidy will be considerable, and ment a fee for handling their moneys which are charges will have to be much higher to make up put onto the short-term money market or on be- for that amount. If that is to be the Government's half of whom the Treasury borrows. One of these policy. [air enough, but the country people arms of Government is the MWA, and when the involved should not be kept in the dark over this amalgamation takes place the one authority will issue. The people covered by the three indepen- have that additional charge inposed by Treasury. dent water boards maintain that if the amalga- The total expenditure in the country water mation takes place and they are required to pay undertakings' vote this year will be only 13 per the same charges as those paid by country people cent higher than it was last year. Despite this fact, 4846 4846[ASS EMBSLY] water and affiliated charges such as sewerage and Mr TONKIN: No, I cannot give the member irrigation have been increased by much more than for Floreat that assurance because I cannot frame 13 per cent. This increase must be explained to next year's Budget on my own, and the Govern- country customers because obviously the Govern- ment is not yet framing next year's Budget. ment is taking money from them by reducing the Mr Parker: It has just got over the last one. subsidy it provides. If the cost is to increase by 13 Mr TONKIN: That is true, let alone the per cent and the charges are to increase by much Budget for the following year. I do not know more than 13 per cent, the difference can be ex- whether the Government will decide to reduce the plained only by the fact that the subsidy will be subsidy to country areas or keep it the same in reduced and the consumers will be required to ab- either real, relative, or money terms. The member sorb that increase in charges higher than the in- for Floreat would not want me to be irresponsible crease in costs. in making promises which we may not be able to As I pointed out during the debate on the Land keep. Drainage Amendment Bill, land drainage rate- Mr Mensaros: The cost increased by 13 per payers will be required to meet more than the in- cent yet the charges increased by more than 13 crease in costs. I asked a number of parliamentary per cent. questions, which indicated that obviously the in- Mr TONKIN": I suppose the Government de- crease in costs represented only half the increase cided that the users of commodities should not be in charges to be imposed in 1983-84. The increase subsidised by the taxpayer. We are committed to in charges was said to be 18 per cent, but the in- moving more towards pay-for-use and, of course, crease in costs was estimated to be only less than that will mean no subsidy at all. half that percentage. These figures cannot be Mr Mensaros: The member for Vasse should taken out of the Budget papers because land memorise this and advertise it in his local news- drainage and irrigation are included in the one pa per. item. If we take land drainage and irrigation Mr Blaikie: You should make that comment together, we see that the estimate for this year is again. only 8.2 per cent higher than the cost for last year The CHAIRMAN: Order! as opposed to the charge Increase of 18 per cent. Possibly irrigation is the disproportionate figure. Mr TONKIN: We do believe in pay-for-use. I but, as I mentioned, I have obtained figures in understood the previous Government was also parliamentary replies for drainage separately. moving towards pay-for-use, for example, with re- spect to the non-residential sector. We have I want the Minister to reassure country reduced in money terms the rates being paid by customers that neither because of the amalga- the non-residential sector, thereby leading to a mation nor as a result of any other reason will considerable reduction in real terms. This has they pay more in charges than the increase in been framed as a palliative for small business. costs dictates. I am not politicking on this issue. I The previous Government halved the allowance have not talked about the Government's commit- and we went along with that, thus moving towards ment not to increase charges, which when made I pay-for-use and away from making it a taxation thought was rather stupid-no Opposition could measure. make such a promise. We cannot continue with- Mr Mensaros: Surely you are much more out incrcased char-ges, especially if we want to intelligent than that! I am talking about the maintain an even keel. But for the Government to method of payment. The subsidy has nothing to charge more than the cost increases is an affront do with it. You can still subsidise it and move to country people, and I challenge the Minister to towards pay-for-use. Nobody understands this. say to country people that they will not be You should reduce the subsidy payable by charged more than the cost increase. Alterna- country people. tively he may say, "Yes, we will charge you more Mr TON KIN: I inform the member for Floreat than the increased costs because we are as a that it is not fit and proper for him to refer to Government reducing the subsidy which you have people's intelligence or lack of it. Every time a enjoyed so far". subsidy is imposed it is a movement away from Mr TON KIN: Is this for the whole of my port- the principle of pay-for-use. folio, or just for water resources? Mr Mensaros: Maybe. The CHAIRMAN: It is for Division 36, Mr TONKIN: I am telling people now that we country water supplies, sewerage, irrigation, and are in favour of pay-for-use because it leads to drainage. conservation of water. [Thursday, 17 November 19831 484784

Mr Blaikie: That comment you have just made, are putting pressure on the people to pay. They as far as the Government principle is concerned, will have to pay at least 25 per cent more for their is nonsense, and you know it. water. Mr TONKIN: The previous Government was Mr TONKIN: I am not saying they will pay at committed to moving towards pay-far-usc. least 25 per cent more for water. Mr Blaikie: I was talking about the Govern- Mr Mensaros: If the subsidy goes. ment principle in all areas. Mr TONKIN: I did not say the subsidy would Mr TONKIN: I am not speaking about all go. The member ear Floreat is usually sharper areas. than he is tonight. I said we would move towards Mr Blaikie: No, you are speaking on what suits pay-for-use: I did not say we would immediately you. adopt it. That is our current policy. I am not in a Mr TONKIN: The member for Vasse is too position to say if we will take it to a certain point stupid. We arc talking about water supplies. I am because, as I pointed out to the member pre- advising the member for Floreat. The member for viously, the Government has not yet finalised its Vasse would do much more for the tone of this Budget for next year or the year after and I am Chamber if he did not interject, especially when certainly not empowered to speak on the Govern- he is not sure what he is talking about. We are ment's behalf. Another point I must make is that discussing water supplies and I pointed out we are the previous Government was moving towards committed to moving towards a pay-for-use pay-for-use even with respect to country water system. That does not mean an immediate supplies. introduction of a pay-for-use system, but a move- Mr Mensaros: No problem. rment towards it. The previous Government was Mr TONKIN: The Government was reducing committed to this. The argument in favour of the subsidy in real terms. In fact, it kept the sub- pay-for-use used by the previous Government was sidy static in money terms which meant a that it leads to conservation of water because if reduction in real terms. The member for Floreat people have to pay for it they are more likely to talked about discussions with the director of en- conserve it than if they have had amounts or al- gineering. The member can raise this with Mr lowances which are not directly paid for but Hillman or anyone else if he wishes to and he will which are contained in some sum under general discover that the previous Government was mov- taxation. ing in the direction of pay-for-use and a reduction Mr Mensaros: I understand that, but we were in the subsidy for country water. not committed to the pay-for-use subsidy. The di- Item 14: Operating Expenses-Sewerage rector was a great supporter of it. Schemes- Mr TONKIN: The acting director or the sub- Mr MENSAROS: The only query I have for stantive director? the Minister regards the operating expenses of Mr Mensaros: The director of engineering who sewerage schemes. I understand this includes is the head of your steering committee. He knows country towns sewerage schemes. I always fol- the previous Government was all for amalga- lowed this matter with great interest. I ask him if mation, but without reducing the subsidy. You the increase here simply represents an increase in could still charge on a pay-For-use basis and pro- operating expenditure or if it includes any new vide your subsidy. country town sewerage schemes; in other words, Mr TONKIN: Yes, but if a person is not between the accounting period of last financial charged the full economic or marginal cost for the year and this one, has an additional country water, we are not charging on a pay-For-use basis. sewerage scheme been added to the total scheme? Every time something is subsidised it is a move- Mr TONKIN: Yes. The member will Find that ment away from pay-for-use. that increase is the minimum increased cost per Mr Mensaros: You are playing with words unit and it includes an increase in country here. schemes. I am unable to give him the details oF Mr TONKIN: I am not playing with words; it this but I will let him know in due course. is a fact. If the water that people use is not paid Item 20: Salaries and Allowances- far by them as they use it but is paid for out of a Mr BLAIKIE: The Budget provides for $1.186 lump sum in taxation, less pressure is put on them million Car 1983-84 which represents an increase to conserve water. of approximately $100000 over the previous 12 Mr Mensaros: All right; that is taken into con- months. I ask the Minister what the Govern- sideration. I understand what you mean, but you ment's position is in relation to the Preston River 4848 4848(ASS EM BLY] drainage district. Will the system be changed Attorney General and I have not discussed. I have under this section of the Budget? not discussed the matter with my colleagues; and I asked the Minister a question today about the in the enforcement of the law there is a great deal number of assessments from the districts, the of flexibility. amount of levies charged, and the amount of ar- Mr BLAIKIE: It will not do the Minister any rears. It appears that something like $12 605 is good to fob off questions of this nature. I asked outstanding for the current year. Over the years the Minister if the Government intended to pur- the following amounts have been outstanding: sue the collection of these debts. 1979, $8000; 1980, $10000; 1981, $10892; and Mr Tonkin: I apologise to the member for for 1982, $12 763. Vasse- I said he liked things told to him three When one considers the amount budgeted times and I have only told him the answer twice. I under this item one wonders whether the Govern- will repeat it for him for the third time. ment has taken account of those figures. The Mr BLAIKIE: The Minister said he would dis- Government has said it intends to abolish the East cuss the matter with the Attorney General and Bunbury drainage district in due course. would make a determination on the matter in due I have already argued this matter with the course. He said there would need to be flexibility. Minister but I would like him to explain what the Mr Tonkin: I did not say there would need to Government intends to do about the arrears. Is be flexibility. There is a great deal of flexibility in the Government going to ensure that these debts the enforcement of the law, I am sure policemen will be pursued and the persons concerned will be have seen you going too fast on many occasions made to pay? It is unfortunate the member for but have not stopped you. Mitchell is not in the Chamber at present because I understand he has been advising people not to Mr BLAIKIE: The Minister may have a pay their accounts. I view that matter with grave greater rapport with policemen than I have be- concern. cause I am afraid every time I have broken the law they have managed to pick me up. The Minis- I would like the Minister to indicate his ter should speak for himself and let me speak for Government's policy in this regard. If those debts myself. are not paid others will have to pay the penalty. The Government has made a determination Mr TONKIN: In answer to that question today that it will allow a group of people, because of ant I indicated to the member for Vasse that the nor- election decision to abolish a drainage district, to mal processes of the law would operate. Of be let off. That is a privileged group of people. It course, there is a considerable degree of flexibility is interesting when one considers what the in the enforcement of the law, as we all know. Government may be proposing to do with these I am not in a position to say just what attitude outstanding accounts. It is all very well for the the Government will adopt on this matter because Government to have a privileged few but the I have not discussed it with my colleagues, and Government has a responsibility to pursue matters certainly not with the Attorney General. of outstanding debts. Those outstanding debts are Mr Blaikic: I asked what action the Govern- owed to the people of this State. ment proposes to take to recover those outstand- The Government has already made an under- ing debts. The Minister's answer was that I taking in relation to the abolition of a drainage should be aware of the provisions available for district and it appears that it is now making an matters of this nature. It really was not an undertaking in relation to last year's outstanding answer. accounts, the account for the year before, and the Mr TONKIN: The member may not be aware year before that as well. I do not regard that as an of the provisions available. I would have thought action of a responsible Government. that any member of this Chamber and any mem- The Minister and his Government have a re- ber of the other Chamber would have been aware sponsibility to the people of this State. It is not of all the provisions available in relation to people correct for the Minister to treat this matter in who do not pay their debts. such a cavalier fashion by wiping off the matter in Mr Blaikie: Does the Government intend to the way he has. pursue that course of action? I would have expected the Minister to have at Mr TONK IN: The member for Vasse always least given the Chamber an undertaking that likes things to be repeated about three times. All these outstanding amounts will be recovered and he d~es is delay the House. I will repeat for him: the force of the law will be used as may be necess- The matter of law enforcement is one which the ary. I wish to have that Fact recorded because [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 444849 there may be other people in certain areas who If the member for Vasse cannot understand, I may be favoured by the Government. cannot do any better. Mr TONKIN: I will comply for the third time. Mr Blaikie: I cannot understand how on earth Perhaps the member for Vasse is not aware that that relates to the drainage system. there is a great deal of flexibility in the enforce- Division 36 put and passed. ment of the law. I mentioned the example of a traffic policeman. An assiduous constable walking Divisions 37 and 38-Consumer Affairs, down Hay Street would be able to charge a dozen 2617000; Electoral, $2 191 000-put and people by the time he had walked from one end of passed. the street to the other. There could be some 100 Division 39: Pollee, $109 807 000- matters he could think of; for example, loitering Mr MacKINNON: I would appreciate it if the with intent or holding a meeting in a public place Minister could explain the reason for the pro- under that infamous section 54B legislation, and vision of $1 086000 for new appointments. I ask so on. the Minister how many officers will be employed Mr Blaikie: What the hell has this to do with under this provision and when they are likely to unpaid drainage bills? be appointed. It is an extremely large number and Mr TONKIN: He could lead those people to we have over 4 000 officers already. the police station and receive a promotion as a re- When the Minister responds I would appreciate sult. Now, of course, that young police constable his giving an indication of how many officers will uses- be employed under that heading. Mr Blaikic: I hope you arc relating this to the Mr HASSELL: In addition to the question unpaid drainage bills. raised by the member for Murdoch, I raise with Mr TONKIN: I cannot believe that the mem- the minister the question of the total budget for ber for Vasse is as dense as he makes out. I think the Police Department and why it is that the it is a ploy. budget increases by a relatively small amount Several members interjected. when there is a committed increase of I00 to the force. I ask also where the savings are being Mr Pearce: I think the member is genuine. made. Mr TONKIN: I do not think anyone could be There is also some discrepancy between the fig- so dense and live. ures as to the number of police officers- Mr Blaikie: I do not think anyone could be so sergeants and constables-shown for last year as dishonest as some people for not treating all against this year. relative to the sums of money people reasonably fairly. You single out these involved. There were 2 662 sergeants and con- groups of people and they are getting unprincipled stables employed in the 1982-83 financial year, at treatment by this Government. a cost of $57 8I12 64 1. This year it is estimated Mr TONKIN: Would the member for Vasse the cost will be $57 221 000. like me to tell the story about someone who went Mr Carr: Are you aware of the general point into court and told lies, admitted that he told lies raised by the Leader of the Opposition? This in the court, admitted that he told lies under oath, Budget relates to 26 pay periods, while last year and was not charged with perjury. Does the mem- there were 27 pay periods. ber want me to give details of that? Mr HASSELL: I am not sure that that is the Mr Blaikie: Well, if it relates to how you are answer. going to- Mr Carr: The Leader of the Opposition asked a Mr TONK IN: It relates to the flexibility of the question last week and I sought advice and that law and the fact that the police, for example, will was the answer given. not stop every person who is travelling over 60 kilometres an hour; do not stop all those who ap- Mr HASSELL: I accept what the Minister says pear to swerve for breathalyser testing; will not as an answer, but it does not really cover it. arrest everyone who appears to be loitering with We are looking at the total vote rising from intent; and will not charge everyone who is seen $103 million to $109 million, and there are 100 on the face of it as guilty of perjury. What I am extra men to be employed. Presumably the ad- saying is that the law is flexible, and that not ditional back-up staff, plant and equipment, and every wrongdoer is prosecuted. This happens, supplies are required. It seems to me to be otherwise our goals would be overflowing and we inadequate. It appears that the Government may probably would not have to have any Budget at have made some significant savings in the police all because the State would be financed by Fines. area, and I am trying to work out what they are. 4850 4850ASSEM BLY]

It appears on the surface that there is an increase those commissions of a lack of effective law en- of less than seven per cent and it simply is not forcement was that the police in their traditional possible. If that could be done with all depart- methods of operation were to Some extent being ments, it would be wonderful. left behind. I do not say that in a carping or criti- The fact or the matter is that the police in this cal way of the police as they well know. They re- State are under a fair deal of pressure. We have ceived my full support as Minister, and they been anxious for some years. and I think the Min- would acknowledge that. ister is anxious also, to see a substantial increase I was trying to convey to the police the need to in staff. Thc union is of the view that the Western project their thinking forward to the year 2000 Australian Police Force is 100 members under and beyond, and to consider what kind of force staffed, and it says that this is reinforced when they would need to be in 10 years to cope with the comparisons are made with the Police Force in task they have to perform. If they do not project South Australia. It is an area of difficulty and I their thinking forward now and get on with it they know that the Government could not conceivably will not make the changes which clearly are put on an extra I1000 men. I do not accept that needed. that could be justified. I am an opponent of such methods of operation However. I want the Minister to comment on as the Costigan Royal Commission and the the reason that the increase in the police budget national crimes authority because they are frag- by comparison with other departments is rela- menting the national police effort. We already tively very small. It is certainly small when one have eight Police Forces in Australia-six in the considers it in context with the overall Budget. States, one in the Northern Territory, and one in I know this is not the time to debate this matter the Commonwealth; which is the Australian Fed- in full, but it is relevant to the Budget. There is a eral Police. We do not need another Police Force. need for the overall police operation to be re- Mr Davies: Why weren't they finding out the viewed and to be looked at afresh. It should be things the Costigan commission was uncovering? looked at through eyes that are not shackled by Mr H-IASSELL: That is the point I am trying to the traditional way the police have operated, the make. It was not because they were slack emerging evidence of crime, or the calls of such policemen who put their heads in the sand and did national bodies as Mr Costigan's Royal Com- not look, but because the nature of the problem mission to introduce new police forces, because has overtaken them to some extent. Police Forces that is what the national crime commission, or need the kind of equipment and expertise that authority, will be. It will be a new police force. Costigan has gathered around him. It is needed Those calls are being made because the police temporarily but not as a permanent proposition in have to develop into a new plane. They must be Mr Costigan's commission or in a national crimes prepared to make adjustments to the structure authority. It is needed everywhere the police op- and to the system, and this is related to the erate-not in every police station, but in every questions of training, promotion, and people with Police Force. Effective enforcement of the laws special expertise entering the police force at a that have to be enforced goes much beyond the higher level, and not simply working their way up cop on the beat. He is more essential than ever to through the ranks. do the job he has; however, whole new areas of The very nature of the Police Force will have to law enforcement have opened up and the police change. In the latter days of my ministerial re- have not covered them. They are still doing their sponsibility for the police I was trying to get job and doing it well but there are new areas. across the concept that they would have to up- The reason that has happened is that we as a grade themselves, not in a revolutionary way community have not been prepared to give them which would cause a lot of disruption, but to up- the resources to do the job. We have not been pre- grade their perspectives and methods of operation pared to give them the powers to do the job, and or they would be overtaken by events and be dim- this was one of the arguments we had with the inished. They would not want that, and they Commonwealth about telephone tapping. The would stoutly oppose it. events of recent months in relation to telephone A real danger exists that the police have got be- tapping-the revelations of the Combe inquiry hind in their way of thinking about how they and of other bodies, and the problems in New tackle their task, I am not a policeman or a crime South Wales-have demonstrated how essential it expert but it became increasingly clear to me that is that law enforcement authorities, if they are to the reason we were seeing Royal Commissions all be effective, should have those powers, subject to over Australia and the identification through proper control. I do not want to have to keep say- [Thursday, 17 November 19831 485185

ing that but whenever I say "telephone tapping" ation in America but it was not as well-developed in one breath I always say "subject to proper con- as ours will be. trol" in the next breath. Mr 1. F. Taylor: You are saying there should be The police will have to expand their field of two levels of induction for the Police Force; the vision considerably if they are going to do their present one with its education level and another job. What will happen to our Police Force-the for graduates or more experienced people. force we want to enforce the law in Western Aus- Mr HASSELL: I believe that is a matter to be tralia-if it does not do those things? It will be seriously considered. We need to have some sort overtaken by events. of study-I hesitate to use the word inquiry be- The pressure is on for effective law enforcement cause if I use that word someone will interpret it in Australia; it is an Australia-wide phenomenon. as looking into something the Police Force has Mr Davies: Are you saying they do not have the done wrong. I venture to guess that our Police equipment or the training? Force would have fewer problems in that area than Mr HASSELL: I will come to that. most others in Australia. It has been a strongly disciplined force and the commissioner If our police do not move and cover the field, and successive officers have been prepared to ac- other bodies will be created such as a national cept the Minister's advice to get rid of anyone crimes authority or Royal Commissions, to do the who has done wrong. We have had more con- work: or the Federal police will take over and be- victed wrongdoers and, in some cases. unconvicted come some sort of elite who deal with super crime wrongdoers,' dismissed than most other forces. In and our police will be left to pick up drunks some situations where a delicate position exists it and deal with armed hold-ups and that sort of is necessary, because of the nature of the job, to thing. I do not think that is good for policing or put a man out even when he has not been con- for the community. victed. That line has been taken. I think our I am concerned to see in this Budget that Police Force is pretty clean. I am sure that although the Government has increased the man- amongst any group of 3 000 people there will power in line with our commitment, which com- always be some wrongdoers but to imagine that mitment this Government has reaffirmed, in re- any system can eliminate those wrongdoers com- ality the Budget does not have any room for the pletely is naive. great leap forward in which the police need to be During my time as Minister for Police and involved. Prisons I am glad to say that the people most con- Mr 1. F. Taylor: A leap forward in training? cerned with regard to taking action in those situ- Mr HASSELL: Yes, there will be a need for ations were the commissioners and senior officers that. We need to see established and upgraded the It was not necessary for me to take action before Australian Police Academy-and it was always they took a hard line. part of the scheme that it would be established in If the Government insists on bringing in outside this State and upgraded, not just moved from investigatory procedures it will be faced with ad- Sydney-and it needs to undergo a complete ditional problems. The police will welcome it and change in its job as well. It was to become a claim their rights of protection as ordinary citi- national police academy of a standard similar to zens. The effectiveness of the weeding out and Bramshall of Britain, and attract people from investigatory processes of the police will be dimin- other places. We expected it would attract police ished. The present police investigatory unit, which for training from South-East Asia and the Pacific. deals with allegations against the police, is very It is not only a matter of training, but also of the tough and the members are referred to as the personnel who are brought into the force. "feather foots". Any member of our Police Force Costigan has a team of accountants and lawyers who runs up against them knows what is hap- working on his material, and he has corn- pecning. and if he has been involved in puterisation. The Police Force in Western Aus- wrongdoing, he is gone. tralia is as modern as any in Australia: there is no If the Government brings in an outside force. question of that. It has as much computer equip- which will look good on the surface-and I know ment as any other Police Force in Australia. many people in the community feel it would be a Some remarkable developments have taken place good thing to have the Ombudsman or an outside in the use of modern technology. body involved-it will reduce the effectiveness The system for transmitting data to and from and thoroughness of the inquiry. The police, as a patrol vehicles-the computer-aided despatch group of men and women, will close ranks against system-is unique in Australia. I saw it in oper- the outsiders. Even Mr Justice Williams, who was 4852 4852[ASSEMBLY] responsible for the report following the inquiry port of that concept. As against that concept, the into drugs, recognised that when he was dealing new Federal Government, under the guidance of with-the subject of drugs-a most vulnerable Senator Evans-who seems to have taken over the area. It is a victimless crime which involves huge whole thing because it has been removed from the sums of money. However, even in that area Mr police arena: and that is a mistake-has re- Justice Williams said that we must be careful. He sponded to the civil liberties view that the crimes suggested that in many circumstances the authority represents a threat to civil liberties. Government would be worse off with an outside There is something in that. That also fitted in, by inquiry system. a marriage of convenience of the different forces, If we want the Police Force to remain as good with the States' opposition to the argument of the as it currently is, the Government should not leap interference of a Federal body in State into that area as a result of pressures from its j urisdiction. We ended up with this extraordinary party. It must attempt to convey to the party that alliance between civil liberties groups, who careful consideration is necessary for the overall wanted to keep the country free of a crimes com- good before any such action is taken. mission because they saw it as a threat to civil liberties, and the States who did not want it be- I return to the broader points. I am concerned cause they saw it as a threat to their jurisdiction. about the police budget because it does not reflect the need for the Police Force to broaden its per- Mr Parker: It is a change for you to be allied spective. I am not saying that the Police Force with civil liberties groups. would necessarily be ready to do that. I did start Mr HASSELL: That is not so. I know you are the process by exploring the idea of some sort of having a jibe at me but it is not true. study. Some sort of expert is needed, and I have I wish to make some further remarks which are not been able to identify the person who could do important and which may be helpful to the Minis- the job. ter. We have been tempted too often to bring in ex- I am not being smart about that, he has a prob- perts from Britain and America. They fly into lem. I put a lot of thought into it. It was not sub- town, cost large sums of money, write a report, ject to public debate, it was not the subject of any tell us how to do it, and go away. We have the ca- conflict across party lines. It is a matter of where pacity within our own nation to work out our own our Police Force will be in 10 or 15 years. Will it solutions to our own problems. If there is an ex- be taken over by an Australian FBI operating out pert in England or America who really is expert of Canberra without any real contact with our and understands the problem, let us use him. I do community? not mean we should be nationalistic to the point Mr 1. F. Taylor: I bet you cannot guarantee of being silly. However, there has been a tendency that you will not make a political issue out of the to believe overseas experts are the only ones we changes. can use. Mr HASSELL: It depends what the changes I have not been able to think of anyone who fits are. the bill with regard to our needs. However, there is a need for some form of study in relation to M r Old: It is open-ended. how our Police Force could, and should, broaden Mr 1. F. Taylor: It is all very nice to stand up its horizon. If we do not get that answer quickly there and be wise and reasonable. we shall be overtaken. Mr HASSELL: The fact remains that the We are going through a great charade in the crime situation will continue to be difficult. The Federal Parliament over the national crimes auth- Senate has today referred the matter to a Senate ority. We have the situation in which the former standing committee. Federal Government, under Senator Durack and Mr Parker: The intention was to get back to the Mr Newman, persisted in creating, with the back- situation where civil liberties were not taken into ing of their Cabinet, the legislation for a national account. crimes commission in the teeth of the concerted Mr HASSELL: The whole argument is turned and united opposition of all States. That legis- back to front. All sorts of people are on different lation was adopted last year by the Federal Par- sides. liament and it provided for a commission which was almost certain not to get any co-operation Mr Parker: He says he does not want this: he from the State Police Forces because of the way it wants a strong national force. was created. I am sorry that some of our Federal Mr HASSELL: I understand that. It is an members of Parliament have persisted in the sup- extraordinary attitude for him to take. The Lib- [Thursday, I17 November 1983] 454853 erals want 10 refer it to the committee because That is difficult to reconcile with the perceived they want to return to what they did last year. situation in the country today. Not one of my con- The whole argument is ridiculous. It makes valid stituents has said that the police do not do a good what I have said all the way through, that what job. Every single one of them gave significant we need in this country is effective policing, and praise to the efficiency, the effectiveness, the time that is what the argument ought to be about. of reaction, and the politeness of the police who There is no way it will succeed here unless it attended in the particular cases the crimes they becomes an effective Police Force. All the sugges- had had committed against them. In no way do I tions we put up involve effective policing, not new wish to condemn the efficiency of or the way in organisations. which the Police Force of Western Australia Let me return to my answer to the Minister for carries out its functions. Employment and Administrative Services about However, it is quite clear that there is a very civil liberties. If he goes back through the records significant rise in the rate of crime in our com- of all the arguments I have put up in relation to munity. One of the arguments I advanced in the the crimes commission right through from the be- second reading debate was that there was a need ginning. 3flC of the principal points was that the to increase the deterrent factor to help to elimin- national crimes commission as proposed would be ate at least part of that rate of increase in crime. I a significant threat to civil liberties, and it would do not maintain that deterrent is the only way to too. With all its teeth drawn as the national solve it, but it is certainly one of the ways. A crimes authority, it would not be a threat to civil significant part of an effective deterrent to crime liberties, but it would not be effective. No-one is a Police Force which can cope with the enforce- seems to be able to strike the balance. The bal- ment side of the problem. In other words, having ance must come back to the Police Forces where a larger Police Force will in itself not necessarily they have a long tradition in drawing the line be- solve the crime problem we have, but without an tween the rights of individuals and the needs of expansion, without sufficient resources placed at law enforcement. We need to devote the resources their disposal, it is almost certain that we will not of the Police Forces to do that. Western Australia be able to cope with the rate of increase in crime could lead. I am sure Mick Millar, the Com- we are facing at the present time. missioner of Police in Victoria, is working on this I would like also to agree very strongly with the problem. There is a real need for us to get on with Deputy Leader of the Opposition that this may the job of looking to the future of the police. not necessarily mean just spending more money Mr TRETHOWAN: During the second read- on those things which the police officers do now in ing debate I raised the matter of the concern of the ways that they do them. It may be necessary my constituents and of the community in general to devote more resources to expanding the at the rise in crime at all levels, from petty crime, existing functions. I do believe, however, that breaking and entering-which is an inconvenience there may well be a necessity to develop ad- to the individual and costs him money-right t he ditional resources and additional functions within way through to violent crime, particularly in re- the force to cope with the nature or some of the lation to armed hold-ups. I also mentioned that crimes, particularly those derived from drug de- much of the crime which concerned me seemed to pendence. have been related to drugs. Crime is committed I was expressing concern in the second reading by people in order to obtain the drugs themselves about medical practitioners, chemists, and other or to obtain sufficient funds to purchase the drugs ancillary health practitioners who had suffered to satisfy their addiction. I certainly undertook on continued break ins in my electorate. This puts behalf of my constituents to raise this matter on whatever opportunity I could during the Budget them to considerable inconvenience and cost, both in security systems, and in the replacement of debate, and it was with some concern that Isa merchandise. that the estimate for the Police Force included an In the case of chemists they felt increase in salaries for the year to May of eight themselves exposed to real personal risk. per cent, and for the overall vote, 6.6 per cent. On I was additionally concerned to hear in this any parameter the inflation rate for the current Chamber from the Chairman of the Select Com- Financial year would be significantly in excess of mittee that there are estimated to be at least that. I would expect it to be at least l0oper cent; it 5 000 hercoin addicts in Western Australia at the could possibly be higher. On that base the salaries present time. It is addictions like heroin which vote is down by a real two per cent, and the over- give rise to much of the compulsive necessity to all vote is down by 3.4 per cent. That is a real de- indulge in this kind of search for drugs or cash for crease. the drugs. 4854 4854[ASSEMBLY]

What I cannot reconcile is that picture with an years, the Shire of Kalamunda has had the second actual, real decrease in the financial resources highest growth rate of all the local authorities in made available to the Police Force this year. the Perth metropolitan region. The growth in the What I do not understand-and the Deputy police service has been nowhere near as high as Leader made this point-is that there appear to the growth in the population. be more actual resources being made available in As a result of that, we have seen a significant the Budget. The financial resources indicate that increase in the number of unsolved petty crimes in if there is a peak inflation factor of 10 per cent, the shire. I believe, but I can give no statistics to which is probably as reasonable as one can get, prove it, that there has also been an increase in there is a real decrease in resources and in the the more serious crime that has gone undetected. salaries and wages being supplied. I will not blame the present Government for not I rind it difficult to consider that as a respon- putting enough money into this part of its Budget, sible reaction to the rate of increase in violent because the previous Government did not do that, crime, bank robberies, and the use of drugs, and and I believe it would have been aware of the situ- get to the root of the effective enforcement of the ation developing in places like Kalamunda. It does law in relation to addictive drugs. not matter which Government is in power; more We have a very strong need for increased attention should be paid to the business of law en- sophistication in the Police Force, in other areas forcement in the community. of crime enforcement, and particularly in the area I become quite concerned when constituents re- referred to as "white collar crime". It is an area port to me cases that they have referred to the of incredible complexity. There is much discussion police and where they have seen no detection of about it at present: and it is quite clear that we, the people responsible for the crimes. Many like the United States of America, are suffering a people now are thinking in terms of taking action heavy rate of crimes that are essentially forms of to protect their own property, whereas previously fraud. Some of them are extremely difficult to that was not a consideration. trace, and they require very sophisticated, skilled People in the Australian community have prob- practitioners in both accounting law and com- ably been spoiled in that they have not experi- puters to track them down. enced the same degree of criminal activity as has Because of all those factors. I express consider- occurred in other parts of the world. But, mark able concern, on both my own behalf and on be- my words, we will see a significant increase in half of my constituents, that apparently there has criminal activity in our community as we go into been no attempt to expand the resources available the future. to the police through this Budget. I hope that re- Recently, the local branch of the Liberal Party, consideration will be given to this matter, because as part of its service to the community, invited the community feels a very strong need to be as- people to attend a talk given by officers of the sured that the erosion of personal freedoms be- Police Force, advising people on how they should cause of the increase in crime can be stopped. One go about making their homes safe from burglary. of the significant factors in stopping that erosion I was amazed at the suggestions put forward by of personal freedom is having a sufficiently the police officers to the women who attended the funded enforcement agency. discussion. It is not as if the police are not aware Mr THOMPSON: Much of what I proposed to of the increase in crime, and of the potential for a say has been stated very adequately by the mem- further increase. Otherwise, they would not be ber for East Melville. I am prompted to make a warning people in the way they are. contribution because of the concern I have for the Whichever party is in power, it should give situation that has developed in the electorate I more attention to the matter of law enforcement. represent, and also in the electorates to two of my I would like to discuss another aspect of the topic, parliamentary colleagues who sit opposite, the and that relates to the treatment in the courts of member for Canning and the member for Helena. the people who are prosecuted by the police. It is A significant part of the areas they represent is hard enough for the police to mount a prosecution served by the police station which is located in the because of the lack of resources, financial and centre of Kalamunda. Almost the entire area of physical, that they have; it is hard enough for the Shire of Kalamunda is served by police them to take somebody to court; but it must be officers stationed in Kalamunda. devastating to see the way in which some of those The population of the Shire of Kalamunda has people are treated by the courts. I know serving had a significant increase over the last two dec- officers of the Police Force who become demoral- ades. Indeed, for a large proportion of the last 20 ised because they see people being treated too [Thursday, 17 November 1983]185 4855 leniently by the courts. The police know that no Mr THOMPSON: I shall take him aside later deterrent is present in some of the sentences on and, at the suggestion of the Leader of the handed out. House, have a little chat. Recently I had a particular matter drawn to my The aspect which is of concern to me. and I attention. In fact, I became involved in it when a know it concerns many people in the Police Force, person began harrassing my electorate secretary. is the treatment that is handed out to people in Ultimately, the harrassment extended to my wife the community. I shall return to the case to which and to several of my children. That person was I was drawing the attention of the Chamber. The persistent in his criticism of me and some of my person to whom I referred and his wife were both colleagues. A few other members of Parliament convicted of false pretences and stealing. The wife came in [or a bit of attention. was given a suspended sentence and the husband was sentenced to six years' imprisonment. I forget I became a little suspicious of this character's the terms of the sentence, but the fellow was out activities, so I made a few discreet inquiries and on parole within a few months and was carrying round that he was and still is on parole having on activities which were obviously of an anti- been sentenced to six years' imprisonment for social nature. Indeed, the police are currently false pretences and stealing. investigating this person. Mr Pearce: Was he sentenced for pulling down' This person is no longer with us. He is in your election signs too? Singapore with his Japanese girlfriend. His wife Mr THOMPSON: No. we caught the guy who who has been involved in these-what I would did that. We reported that matter to the local term-criminal activities has been arrested and action has been taken against her. However, Police Force, because the people involved had wil- the husband is in Singapore with a girlfriend. fully damaged property. The police said,' "We would like to do something about it, but we do not The police tell me that not only would that man have the resources to look after your election offend again, hut also he would offend in precisely signs". So we undertook to look after them the same way as he offended previously. Indeed, a outselves. Busselton farmer is now approximately $40 000 light in his bank balance and this fellow has taken M r Pearce: A sort of vigilante group! off with the money. Mr THOMPSON: Despite the prediction made Before the second offence occurred the police by the then Leader of the Opposition, the member were able to tell me that the guy would do it for Wclshpool, who said there would never be a again. If the police know that, why are not the prosecution, because it was a put-up job, there people who are responsible for rehabilitating con- was a prosecution. The culprit denied vigorously victed offenders aware of it and why cannot there there was any political connection, but he was de- be a little more- fended in the court by Tom Hartrey. Mr Tonkin:, They are aware, but what do they Mr Pearce: He must have been a Liberal then! do? Mr THOMPSON: He proceeded to give my Mr THOMPSON: Having given a person a six- colleague, the Hon. Gordon Masters, whose pic- year sentence, they should not let him out of gaol ture appeared on that poster with me, and myself within a few months. Things have to be a little harsher than that. a hard time in the Midland court. After all the ef- fort that went into it, that man was fined $5. Mr Tonkin: Rehabilitate them inside! Mr Pearce: A put-up job! There is no doubt Mr THOMPSON: Yes, we should rehabilitate about it. them inside. I believe the sentences given to these people are far too lenient. The inference which Mr Tonkin: Did he have a long record? can be drawn from the Leader of the House's Mr THOMPSON: In thc circumstances I interjection is that we should not put them in gaol thought the fine was inappropriate. I am not say- at all; we should rehabilitate them outside. ing the guy should have been slapped in prison for Mr Tonkin: No, there can be no inference of the crime, but I make the point that on that oc- that nature. casion the police said they did not have the re- Mr THOMPSON: I thought I would just check sources to do anything about the matter. the position. Mr Tonkin: You should explain that to the Mr Clarko: It would be cheaper to put them up member for Vasse. I was trying to explain it to at the Sheraton than to pay the costs involved in him a little while ago. imprisoning them. 4856 4856[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Pearce: You can get out of the Sheraton member for Armadale has an interest in it and pretty easily. has made a commitment- Mr Clarko: You wouldn't want to. Mr Pearce: These days I have a controlling Mr Pearce: If you aren't careful they throw you interest. out at midnight! Mr RUSHTON: --on behalf of the Labor Mr THOMPSON: I stress the seriousness of Party that more staff and better facilities will be the situation which has developed in our State. It provided to the police station. We are also com- will become explosive unless more attention is mitted to such a policy. paid, firstly, to ensuring sufficient resources are Armadale is a subregional centre, so it is only available to the police so that they can more ad- natural that the facilities there need to be up- equately carry out the work they are doing now. I graded in order that the Police Force is better ac- anm not in any way critical of what they do. They commodated. Clearly the Minister will have to do a marvellous job with the resources available, take that into account as the programme de- but members of this Chamber who appoint velops. Population numbers indicate that is war- Governments have to make sure that those ranted. Governments divert a little more cash and facili- Recently the court facilities at Armadale have ties to the police so that they can do their job. been improved and that has created a great deal Secondly, the judiciary must be a little more more work for the police. While our community is severe in handing down penalties after laborious no better or worse than any other community, the work has been carried out getting people into the population in the area has grown rapidly and, courts. In that way, the deterrent effect will be therefore, greater attention should be given to this greater. matter. Thirdly, the people in charge of the prisons and I pay a tribute to a local policeman, Alex other institutions who are responsible for im- Cowie, who died recently. He was the old type of posing punishment should do it more effectively. traditional policeman. He was about 6' 6" tall and Mr Jamieson: I take it you have not joined the I pay tribute to the service he provided to the "Release of the Mickelbergs Society". community. Mr THOMPSON: No, I have not. Mr Tonkin: I knew him well when I was there. With those remarks I ask the Minister, in con- Mr RUSHTON: It had a real impact when he sidering the general comments I have made, to walked down the street and attended functions pay particular attention to Kalamunda, because with his great bulk in a police uniform. the Police Force there is severely undermanned. I Mr Tonkin: He was a good bloke! do not refer only to the Shire of Kalamunda Mr Thompson: Would he be the type to kick which I represent- people in the backside? Mr Tonkin: Are you casting aspersions on your Mr RUSHTON: The member probably is not constituents again? old enough to remember the days when that sort Mr THOMPSON: -but I refer also to the of thing was done, but that is the sort of person he areas represented by the member for Helena- was. He certainly kept a lot of young people on Mr 1. F. Taylor: As the member, you should the straight and narrow purely by setting an have been doing something about this when you example. were in Government. Areas have grown so much that I understand it Mr THOMPSON: The member for Kalgoorlie is difficult for the police to do their work, but I do must have been asleep, because I said I did not not think the switch-over to the mobile patrols is blame this Government for the position. I referred really as effective as areas having sufficient to previous Governments. policemen who are able to appear in the appropri- ate places and who are able to give good advice to Mr 1. F. Taylor: I must have been asleep. young people particularly, before they get into the Mr Pearce: Of course, there could have been a crime stream. I understand that it is difficult to reason for that. achieve the number of policemen we need, but Mr THOMPSON: Urgent action needs to be this is a priority that must be addressed; it is taken in the Shire of Kalamunda to relieve the probably the greatest priority. Each of us believes situation of the Police Force there which is hope- the area he represents has the greatest need. lessly undermanned. I have had great regrets over the closure of the Mr RUSHTON: I shall address myself to three historical police station in Kelmscott. It was only points. The first relates to Armadale and the a one-man station for a long time, but it proved [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 485785 very effective in keeping petty crime at bay in the It is sad but true to say that many people in the area. Since it has been closed the population has community no longer have the respect for law and increased of course, but we have experienced order they once had. At one time people showed a more petty crime. great deal of respect for the police, but as that is Again, I pay tribute to Alec Cowie, a respected no longer necessarily so in many eases it is unfor- member of our local community. He did a lot for tunately necessary to come down on some people the well-being of our young children. I can recall reasonably hard and reasonably often. This makes when I was representing the Rockingham area things difficult for the people concerned and for and driving home in the early hours only to come the police officers themselves, but it is a fact of across people on the road who had been involved life and one we have brought on ourselves by in accidents. I was able to race to Alec and he being too tolerant of increasingly poor behaviour. would quickly arrange the necessary ambulance Perhaps it is a result of the way many young chil- and whatever else was needed to take care of the dren have been brought up. I believe too much situation. tolerance has been shown and this is one of the reasons the police have recently made a call to be He was a very cordial and pleasant person who allowed to wear side-arms. It is a very sad state of was able to play an important part in our com- affairs to have reached the stage that police feel munity. It is therefore only right that I should re- they should be armed while going about their cord a tribute to this outstanding policeman who, duties. by his example, provided the possibility of a better life for many young people in the area. The police have always done their job well, as they will continue to do. The fault lies with us, be- Mr CRANE: Like the member for Dale before cause we are the legislators who make the law. me, I pay tribute to the work of the police in this Unfortunately we have been Jet down to some ex- State, and particularly in my electorate. I have tent by the magistrates and the judges who have always had a very good rapport with members of been too lenient in many instances. It all falls the force throughout the time I have been a mem- back on the poor old policeman who has to go out ber of Parliament. They have always commnandled again and catch a miscreant. The policeman has a great deal of respect and been very helpful on perhaps already risked his life once and may have many difficult occasions. to do so again in some instances, and we must re- I would like to stress to the Minister for Police member that the police have families like every- and Emergency Services the need for a police one else. We should provide every assistance to presence in the Yanchep-Two Rocks area, a need our Police Force. of which he is already aware as I have raised the The point I really want to make is that at the matter with him on many occasions. The Com- cornier of the Yanchep Beach Road is a building missioner of Police has a letter of mine now. I which was used as the office of Yanchep Sun City have not received a reply as yet, but that is prob- Pty. Ltd. This building would make an admirable ably a good thing because it means it is being police station. I understand the Firm is negotiating acted upon. I am never critical when this sort of on this matter and is prepared to co-operate and letter is not replied to quickly. make available this building or some other suit- We all know of the progress made over the last able building for use as a police station. I think all few years in the Yanchep-Two Rocks area, and I that is needed is for the Government to say, "Yes, could point to the Atlantis Marine Park, which we see the need for this station and we will have has attracted almost a million people to the the building". area over the two years since it was established. Again I remind the Minister in a most kindly The business people in the area are concerned manner, as is always my wont, that the people in about their banking facilities and the need for a the area have their problems. I have no need to police presence. elaborate on them because the Minister is aware It is not a criticism of the police when I say of the situation. I believe therefore that he should that the Warwick and Wannero patrols, although understand the worth of considering a police pres- very mobile, can take up to 40 minutes to drive to ence in the area. I know it will involve a cost and I the area. I commend them for the good work they understand the argument against a police pres- do, but the problem is one of geography. Unfortu- ence is that the Government cannot provide just nately, when a police presence is needed it is re- one or two police because it is necessary to have quired, might I say, not this evening or tomorrow, five to provide a continuity of on-duty policemen. but perhaps yesterday. It is for reasons of this However, if we could somehow go back to the old urgency that I maintain there is a need for a system-and I do not think it hurts to do so when police presence in the Yanchep-Two Rocks area. the old system was shown to work-I am sure the 4959 4858[ASSEMBLY] people would be satisfied to have just one or per- position. It may be that 30 000 people visit the haps two policemen. All they really want is a per- town each year, but certainly the number would manent police presence. not be less than 20 000. For that reason alone, the When the member for Greenough represented town has a special need for the establishment of a areas further north-Leeman and Eneabba-he police station. The unfortunate part of the history was aware of the same problem in those areas. It of the region around Hyden is that a lot of money was not to say that the police at Carnamah, has been expended on the establishment of new Jurien or Moora did not do a good job in looking police stations at, particularly, Kondinin and after the areas further south. We have the Kuhin. greatest respect for what they do, but again it is a The planning and research section of the Police case of geography deciding what can be done. We Department always has said the area is ad- must have another look at the situation in country equately catered for and that police officers run areas. Country people are entitled to the protec- mobile patrols to Hyden on a regular basis. How- tion of the law just the same as are others. Just ever, as the Minister would know, disturbances of because there are fewer people living in country the peace do not generally coincide with patrols to does not mean they are less entitled to that areas particular towns. protection. People in country areas have a great respect for the Police Force, and the police have a When records have been kept, it has been found great respect for the people. the time lapse between the disturbance and the presence of a police officer at the scene has been I ask the Minister to look at the problems at longer than one hour. I ask the Minister to con- Yanchep and Two Rocks, and consider the use of template the situation which would have existed the old office at the corner of Yanchep, Beach at Roebourne, had there not been a police pres- Road and Two Rocks Road for the stationing of a ence for one hour at the scene of the recent dis- police officer. The building is centrally located. turbance. Two police officers may have been in I ask the Minister to remind the commissioner serious trouble. The presence of more police to get my letter out of one of his pigeonholes and might have prevented the situation from see what can be done about the situation at escalating. I am certain the Minister understands Yanchep. my point. Mr COWAN: I am not sure that my remarks I ask the Minister to request the planning and will be relevant to this debate, but if they are not, research section of the department to re-examine I expect that you, Sir, will sit me down. the situation at Hyden because of the peculiarities The CHAIRMAN: You can be sure I will be of the town, and particularly because of its dis- lenient. tance from other towns. It is more than 40 kilo- Mr COWAN: The matter to which I refer has metres from the nearest police station, which is at been dealt with by other members; and it is the Kondinin and which services an area that runs utilisation of police officers in country towns. The east of Hyden for 80 kilometres. It is a large agri- reason I said I am not sure whether I should deal cultural region. So far we have not been able to with this matter in the general debate is that the get past the planning and research section. Public Works Department is responsible for the I am not sure what would happen if the section construction of quarters for the staff and officers recommended that a police station be built at who man police stations. For some years moves Hyden. The problems would be the finding of ac- have been made to have a police station estab- lished in the town of Hyden, which has some commodation for the police personnel, and the peculiarities making it deserving of special atten- construction of the police station. Funds would be tion. Wave Rock at Hyden is an internati onal as difficult to find as has been justifying the need tourist attraction and attracts a great number of fr the establishment of a police presence at visitors. Hyden. Mr Hassell: How many? Hyden is one of the few country towns in WA which is growing. Certainly on a permanent basis, Mr COWAN: It is approximately 20000 a the establishment of a police station and an year, officer at H-yden can be justified. In addition, Mr Hassell: I think it is 30000. That is what problems occur at the caravan park. It is not a they told me when I was down there the other wild place by any means, but as the Minister is day. aware, when people are on holiday they tend to be Mr COWAN: My figures may be a little older a little exuberant at times and can cause prob- than the figures of the Deputy Leader of the Op- lems. I ask the Minister to have the planning and [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 454859 research section examine this question and give During winter, the residents need security. priority to it. Many residents in the area are mobile during that Mr McNEE: I take this opportunity to support period, and leave their homes unoccupied. The the remarks of the member for Moore and the presence of a police officer in the community member for Merredin. My electorate suffers sirmi- would be of great assistance. What happens dur- lar disadvantages to thosc which the members ing the summer and winter periods, mentioned. I ask the Minister not to consider notwithstanding the location of an officer in the depreciating our Police Force any further, but to community during the Christmas holiday period, consider taking a positive step towards increasing is that a mobile squad from Margaret River op- the force in places such as Tammin, which is one erates in the area. Margaret River is some 30 that comes readily to mind. miles away. If an urgent need for a police officer arises, the mobile squad does what it possibly can. Some correspondence is passing between the If the squad goes to Augusta. the police station at Minister and I at the moment in regard to that Margaret River becomes undermanned. It can be town. The people are asking for a policeman to be argued that the mobile squad from Busselton can stationed at the town, although it is appreciated step into the breach when the squad from that because of economics a station cannot be Margaret River goes to Augusta, but in that case built in a town of that size. We ask the Minister the whole Yallingup-Dunsborough area misses to consider stationing a policeman in the town as out. All these areas are important regional areas, his place of domicile, so that the town at least has and the Minister should have some sympathy with a police presence. It is amazing how the criminals the argument I present. work out quickly that there is no police presence In the last seven years a dramatic growth has in a town. On the other hand. it is also amazing occurred in the Dunsborough, Margaret River, how great is the stabilising effect on people when and Augusta areas, and particularly in viticulture. they do not know whether the policeman living in In addition, a growth has occured in the number the town is at home or away. of alternate lifestyle people moving into the area, I guess I have had more requests on this matter who, I must add, have established themselves as than on any other. I think I have sent three letters worthy citizens. All in all, the total number of to the Minister in one week asking for increased people is increasing, and those people need to police protection for my electorate. have some security by way of the permanent pres- ence of a police officer in the area. In addition, it One of the problems for police in country is an area of great tourist attractions, and conse- areas-apart from the vast areas they must con- quently enjoys a very mobile community going trol-is the great amount of their time that is through the area. That illustrates some of the dif- taken up by administrative duties. There may well ficulties experienced by the community and I be sound reasons for those administrative duties, certainly want to represent their case for them. but could they not be done by a secretary? We urge the Minister to consider that suggestion, so I find great disappointment with one matter that policemen can carry out the duties for which when five years ago in the capital works Budget programmed money for they are trained and which we would much rather the Government actually in Augusta. see them pursue. They should not be bound to the establishment of a police station The records show that I complimented the desks filling in an endless number of forms. We Government on its foresight at the time. We were appreciate such work must be done, but ask the looking forward to the day when a police officer Minister to pay attention to our suggestion. was to be permanently located in the town. Then, I compliment the Police Force on the excellent by some strange quirk-I have never been able to job it does. I appreciate the great problems the work out what happened-the funding was taken Minister has in front of him, but ask him to con- away from Augusta and the money that was to be sider my electorate sympathetically along with spent there went to the Police Academy at others toward the end of increasing our police Maylands. No doubt, it was well spent in that protection. area. But I am very critical of the way it was Mr BLAIKIE: I refer the Minister to the need taken from Augusta and that community was de- for a police officer to be stationed at Augusta, nied what it regarded as a priority in the town. and I assure him the need is great. Augusta is rec- I now ask the Minister to look at this in yet ognised as a country town of importance, and another dimension. The community of Nannup, already an officer is stationed at the town be- which is situated on the Vasse Highway between tween December and April. but that is not good Bridgetown, Augusta, and Busselton, is an im- enough. portant centre within the Warren electorate, but 4860 4860ASSEMBLYJ it is only a very small centre and I venture to say I notice a reference was made to the capitai the population of Nannup would be not more than works allocation for two new police stations, and 20 per cent of the population or Augusta. yet the in last year's capital works allocation another two Government has seen fit to maintain the police police stations were provided for. I guess that is presence there. I fully support this and it is an im- on a par. portant presence. Mr Rushiton: What happened this year? Where Mr Evans: I am glad of that. did they go? Mr BLAIKIE: The Government has seen it to Mr CARR: To Nannup. allocate $250 000 for a building programme Mr Old: And Cranbrook. for new and improved facilities. I wholeheartedly Mr CARR: Yes, to Cranbrook. support that programme, but I do not believe it Mr Old: A very good judge, that lot. should have any priority over Augusta. That is the point I want to make; we need to have some de- Mr CARR: I am certainly happy to take note gree of priority and some understanding between of the representations from various members con- the Government and the Minister. cerning the locations they referred to. I am also happy to refer the comments that have been made The two areas I want to represent to the Minis- in this debate to the planning and research branch ter are these: The permanent establishment of a to ensure the officers are aware of the situation in police presence at Augusta; and the need to estab- each of the towns mentioned. lish a similar presence on a permanent basis in the Yallingup-Dunsborough area or, to at least, an I am quite confident that the branch is already increase in the number of police officers at the aware of the situation, because an ongoing moni- toring programme on the level of demand in each Busselton Police Station. place exists. A very complicated points system has I trust that the Minister will have full regard been worked out which relates to the number of for the comments I have made and I look forward contacts made between police officers and to his reply. I ask whether he is prepared to dis- offenders of one type or another, and arising from cuss the staffing arrangement with the com- that points system a fairly clear pattern is worked missioner and perhaps be good enough to send me out on the level of demand in the various com- a letter on this matter in due course. munities. The members who have raised those Mr Peter Jones: The Minister will be pleased to points can be assured that I will pass on their know I do not need any more police stations in my comments. electorate. Mr Blaikie: Will you be able to give us an indi- Mr CARR: Perhaps the appropriate place to cation of the result of those communications in start is with the remarks made by the last four, due course? five or six speakers who made representations to Mr CARR: I will certainly see that a reply of have police stations provided or for the police some form is made available to each of the mem- presence in their areas to be upgraded. It is obvi- bers who have spoken in that context. I must say ously true that as well as the half dozen or more that those members who have spoken have made towns that were named the Police Force or police highly complimentary comments about the Police station provision is not ideal in a number of other Force. All the members who participated in the communities around the State. Recently the debate made complimentary remarks, and I think member for Mitchell during a grievance debate they were appropriate because we do have a good named towns in his electorate. Mr Chairman, I Police Force. know that you have been rather active, to say the The commissioner has expressed the view that least, in making representations to me for an in- he prefers to have a mobile Police Force rather crease in the number of policemen who should be than having policemen located in particular areas provided at Rockingham. and perhaps not being fully utilised in those lo- Mr Rushton: It is pretty well equipped down cations. there now, but we did that. Mr Rushton: I think there could be some disad- Mr CARR: The obvious point that needs to be vantages in having a mobile force instead of a per- made is that there is no easy answer to this prob- son in the locality. lem because every community around the State Mr CARR: Two factors are involved: One is would like to have an additional policeman or an the availability of manpower to be able to go upgraded police presence and obviously the re- where there is a problem and the other is having sources of the Stale will not provide for every new an established person, a policeman who can de- police station which is required. velop a rapport with a community. The last few [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 464861 speakers spoke of the rapport in their community The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said between the policeman and the local people. there was a need to upgrade the Police Force, or The general tone of the whole debate was a to at least make it more forward thinking as we constructive one and even members who made proceed to the next couple of decades and the some criticisms did so in a constructive and posi- changes we will have to face with regard to new tive way. I believe the Deputy Leader of the Op- types of crime. I appreciate those comments and position made a very constructive contribution to acknowledge the Police Force cannot afford to the debate. stand still and allow the community to move past it. In terms of growth we have a very good Police First of all, with regard to the questions raised Force in Western Australia. I have no doubt that concerni ng t he level of fu ndi ng I was under a mis- our force is better than the forces in other States, understanding in that I believed the Treasury in terms of ability to handle the crime situation in would prepare a detailed document concerning the State. Notwithstanding that, there is a need to these amounts, under several items of the CRF. keep abreast with the changes of every section of That was not the case, and it was only in the last the community, and in particular with the crimi- day or so I found it was expected that each de- nal element. partment would provide a detailed summary. So, I There are a couple of main points to be looked am not able to give as much detailed answer on at in the upgrading of our Police Force. One is the the financial side as I would like to do. I will con- training and maintenance of the Police Force, as vey the information to the members if I am not well as the administration of police matters. able to provide it now. Many people think of the homely constable they A number of members referred to a cut in real have known for many years who provides stability terms of money allocated to the Police Force. I in the community. However, there is a need in think there is some clear misapprehension of what this new technological community we live in to has happened. The amount of money being allo- have some of the sharpest, most intelligent and cated is up by $7 million to an amount of $109.8 highly trained people at the workplace of the million. While that may not seem a big percent- Police Force. We need to be looking at recruiting age in its own right, many factors have been the very best personnel and training them to en- overlooked in the discussion. The first is that in sure that we have the best, sharpest and most the last year there were 27 pay periods and in this capable police officers who can take up their pos- year there only 26 pay periods. That explains a itions in the force to make crucial decisions. substantial part of the reduction in some of the al- We have in this State a promotional system location. We must also take the allowance of the largely based on seniority. An argument has been 10 per cent pay reduction of senior officers. In ad- put forward that there is a need to examine this dition, there have been same cutbacks which were need quite closely. The commissioner has put for- undertaken by the previous Government. I refer ward a rather extensive programme reviewing the for example to the closure of licensing centres in promotional structure within the Police Force. It the metropolitan area, which had a staff of about is presently being discussed, initiated and liaised three people each. That cutback has become ef- between the Police Department, the Police Force fective now and shows up in the estimates. and the Police Union. I would hope that within In addition, and associated with that same the not-too-distant future we will see advances in point, we are moving to on-line computers for the promotional structure of the force to make licensing, and this will reduce the requirement for sure that those people most able to handle diffi- ptople to operate those licensing centres. cult jobs occupy those important positions. Mr Rushton: One point on that is that service With regard to recruiting I might say I am could be done by someone other than the police. impressed with the general level of the recruits taken into the Police Force. A large number of Mr CARR: The licensing function is a vital people have applied at each intake and only a part of police operations. While at this stage it is small percentage have been accepted. At the two just driver licensing, vehicle licences will be going passing out parades I have attended I have been on-line as well. most impressed with the standard of recruit taken Mr Rushton: We were looking at restructuring into the force. that. I take note of the comment made by the mem- Mr CARR: We have not followed that through. ber for Kalgoorlie when he referred to the desir- It is our intention to proceed with an on-line com- ability of having a two-level intake into the Police puter system for both licences to be handled by Force. The object would be to take on people who the Police Force. would be required to become standard policemen 4862 4862ASSEMBLY] to deal with the traditional police role and take on Mr MacKinnon: Do you have any detail as to people with particular abilities in important aca- who will carry out the inquiry? demic fields, such as lawyers, computer experts, Mr CARR: No. The Deputy Leader of the Op- accountants, and the like. position raised a question about what type of per- Mr Rushton: It could have people providing son would be the appropriate person to undertake that service under contract. the study of the management of the Police Force Mr CARR. That does happen to some extent. if such a study were to be undertaken. That is We use some people with a particular expertise what we are considering at the moment. One and they are made available to the Police force suggestion is that we employ a management con- on a contract basis. I am making the comment sultant-type firm to look at the efficiency and that we probably need to take a closer look at the management of the force. Another suggestion is suggestion made by the member for Kalgoorlie that we employ a person with suitable expertise in that we could upgrade our recruitment. modern criminology. I suggest that the ideal is some sort of study that incorporates the best of Mr Rushton: The risk in that is you might be those two situations. seen as a super duper policeman or an average drop-out. Mr Rushton: Would it not be best to have an external body reporting to an internal committee Mr CARR: I think there are risks in any in- which consists of first-class policemen? itiatives, and we will look into what the member for Dale has said. Mr CARR: The whole question of what form the inquiry will take is being examined. A number Mr Rushton: How many extra policemen will of suggestions have been investigated and senior there be? policemen from this State have visited New South Mr CARR: We are employing an extra 100 Wales and South Australia, where studies and re- men in addition to those who take the place of views have taken place in recent years, to assess those policemen who retire. how those studies were undertaken in those States The other important point made by the Deputy and to try to learn from their mistakes. Therefore, Leader of the Opposition was in the context of the we are hopeful that we will make the right de- management and structure of the Police Force. cision when we act upon the proposal. He believed that some form of study, review or in- The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred quiry may be appropriate as a way to look at the also to the proposed national crimes authority. structure and practices of the Police Force which When I first became Minister for Police and are best suited to the 1980's situation. In fact, Emergency Services the current thinking was very considerable progress has been made along this much along the lines that we should have a track. Prior to my assuming my position as Minis- national crimes commission. A Bill to that effect ter for Police and Emergency Services an inquiry had been introduced into the Federal Parliament had been undertaken into the internal struc- by the Fraser Government. ture-administration and promotional-of the Earlier this year, together with the member for Police Force. That internal inquiry reported some months ago to the commissioner, who in turn re- Floreat, I attended a major seminar, for Floreat, which was held in Canberra to discuss the ported to me and recommended there be an exter- question of a crimes commission and to see nal review of the Police Force administration and whether a consensus could be arrived at between management. That recommendation has been the Commonwealth and State Governments. The considered by Cabinet and, in fact, Cabinet has conference featured strong exponents of the two agreed in principle to the suggestion that there of view. Some people wanted a should be such an external inquiry. Details of the opposite points full-scale standard national crimes commission as form that inquiry will take are still being exam- outlined in the previous Federal Government's ined by the commissioner and by myself. proposal. It was proposed that this body would be Mr Rushton: Is that supported by the com- in existence permanently and would be able to in- missioner? quire into organised crime as it saw fit. The Mr CARR: Yes, it was an internal inquiry alternative proposed by a civil liberties group was headed by Assistant Commissioner Guest, which, that we did not need any sort of extra police force. through the commissioner, recommended there be The proposal which emerged from that conference a review. Cabinet agreed to the recommendation held in Canberra was that a national crimes auth- in principle, but it is still discussing what form ority model the legislation which was introduced that inquiry will take. into the Federal Parliament a week or so ago and [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 486346 which is the subject of today's decision to refer it I am sure that all members in this Chamber to a Select Committee of the Parliament. would want strict safeguards should such a move The model that has been agreed to has been be adopted. supported by this State Government and is seen as The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred being a sensible and reasonable compromise be- also to discipline within the force. I agree with his tween the two extreme points of view. We ac- general remarks that there is a higher level of knowledge the need for there to be a national discipline in this Police Force than in many crimes body to deal with crime that crosses State around Australia. borders. Mr Rushton: It has a very good reputation. A lot of large-scale organised crime crosses Mr CARR: The Police Force in Western Aus- State borders and causes considerable difficulty tralia comprises 2 800 men and women. During for State Police Forces. The national crimes auth- the course of their work they Find themselves ex- ority Bill does not provide for a standing com- posed to difficult situations and it would be un- mission to continue on an ongoing basis, but pro- reasonable to expect there not to be some blem- vides that the authority would be able to inquire ishes within the force. only into matters referred to it by the Common- Notwithstanding that, I agree with the com- wealth Government and by State Governments ment of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that and in which there appear to be a particular prob- we do not appear to have any form of lem. institutionalised corruption or large-scale corrup- lion within the Police Force in this State. I Mr Rushton: Arc you suggesting that the State certainly have full confidence in the general qual- could veto it if it did not want to proceed? The ity and level of our force. The Deputy Leader of Commonwealth Government should not impose the Opposition then turned to the question of in- its will on the State. quiries into complaints against individual police officers. l am aware an enormous number Mr CARR: The Commonwealth Government of com- plaints are made against police officers because a cannot impose its will on the State. It cannot de- large number come across my desk regularly. mand that an inquiry be undertaken in a State if They vary from some vexatious and malicious it does not have the approval of the State Govern- complaints on the one hand, to some which have a ment. The administration of the authority would basis of validity on the other. be under a committee of people appointed by the police commissioner's council and the Standing This Government is committed to a form of in- Committee of Attorneys General. dependent involvement in complaints against indi- vidual police officers. It is in our party platform It is a positive decision that would deal with the in terms of the power of the Ombudsman being question of crime, but it would have greater safe- extended to investigate complaints. guards than those available under the previous Mr Rushton: Wouldn't your experience be in- crimes commission model. fluential in changing that policy if you found it to The Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred be not in the best interests of the police? to telephone tapping and made the comment that Mr CARR: If the member will allow me to do he saw it as not being unreasonable that the police so I will come to the need for an assessment of have powers to tap telephones in certain circum- this. stances, with particular safeguards. I do not mind going on record as agreeing with that point of No doubt exists that the community demands view. I hasten to support what I have said, as the there be some form of independent investigation. It is my strong view that it is important not only Deputy Leader of the Opposition supported his for justice to be done, but also for it to be seen to remarks, with the qualification that there needs to be done. This is probably a classic example of be secure safeguards. I think we would probably where that expression can be well applied. I agree be looking at a situation where telephone tapping with the comments of the Deputy Leader of the should be imposed only with the approval in Opposition that the internal investigations branch writing of a judge of the Supreme Court following of the Police Force, the "feather feet" as he called the appropriate evidence to him as to why it was them, is a very strong section, and makes strong necessary to tap the telephones. and aggressive investigations into complaints There is no immediate proposal before the against police officers. I know the branch is Government to take this action. I am just express- feared by some members of the Police Force. A ing a personal view which is similar to the per- compromise is available, and if one looks at the sonal view expressed by the Deputy Leader of the other States one sees that in most the Opposition. Ombudsman is involved in police investigations. 4864 4864[ASSEMBLY]

The exception is Queensland where an external not appropriate. That in no way lessens my and tribunal exists to conduct inquiries. Most other the Government's strong support of the Police States involve the Ombudsman; some have sec- Force. onded internal investigators from the Police Force Item 1: Salaries, Wages and Allowances- to serve on his staff, and some States have worked Mr MacKINNON: I would like to raise two in different ways. points. The Minister did not answer my query One that has attracted attention is the Com- about the provision for new appointments. Per- monwealth police system where investigations are haps he will comment on that, or perhaps he does conducted by internal investigators but the not have the information. Ombudsman has the power to involve himself by Mr Carr: I do not have the exact information. I looking at the file at any time, or ordering a new presume it relates to the 100 new police; I will investigation and conducting an investigation if he give you an answer in writing. is not satisfied with the performance of the internal investigation section. I will be taking a Mr MacKINNON: I thank the Minister. proposal to Cabinet soon which recommends a The second point is much more serious and re- form of involvement of the Ombudsman in lates to policemen bearing firearms. I was con- internal investigations into the Police Force; it is cerned last weekend to see on the front page oF likely to be along lines not dissimilar to those I The Western Mail a photograph of an officer in have just mentioned. the mall, I think it was, with a pistol on his hip. I I conclude by referring again to the quality of am totally opposed to policemen publicly bearing the Police Force in this State and the fact that it firearms in their general duties in this State. I am is better than many others around Australia. not opposed to a special force of inspectors, if they There are people in the community who are very are a particular group to counter bank robberies, keen to criticise the Police Force, for whatever being so armed, but to have officers bearing arms reasons. It is incumbent on all members of Parlia- in public is intimidatory to the criminal element. ment to strongly support the force. This Govern- I visited the United States last year and the ment is very strong in its confidence in and sup- prevalence of firearms in that country shocked port of the Police Force. There is a notice of mo- me, coming from our country which is law abid- tion on the Notice Paper in the name of the Depu- ing and which has strict controls on firearms. I ty Leader of the Opposition deploring the fact support that strict control; I do not support the that this Government does not support the Police carrying of firearms in public by police officers Force. It is appropriate for me to say, as I have unless some very good case can be put forward, said during the last eight months, that this and I cannot think of one. I would like the Minis- Government has full confidence in the Com- ter to state his Government's policy on that issue, missioner of Police and the general standing and and perhaps make some comment on the article in quality of the Police Force in this State. The Western Mail. Mr Rushton: It is generally recognised you Mr CARR: This Government is opposed to the have a difficult task because you are under strong general arming of the Police Force. That has been pressure from the unions. said a number of times before and is still a state- Mr CARR: The member for Dale can say what ment of our position. An approach was made to he thinks about unions and draw red herrings me earlier this year for there to be a general across the point I am making. arming of the police and the Premier and I replied to that in the terms that we simply did not agree The Government gives a strong level of support with that policy. However there are a couple of to the Police Force, and I have said that many complications. The first is that the existing policy times. I suppose it does not make big headline is that policemen on particular patrols or on par- material for the Minister to say he supports the ticular tasks where it is considered appropriate for Police Force; it does not get big coverage. them to request a Firearm, and it is considered ap- We believe we have a very good Police Force propriate by the senior officer of the station for notwithstanding the fact that among 2 800 people, them to carry arms, may be issued with them. some will make mistakes. I do not support every That has been policy for a considerable period of individual action of every policeman. I religiously time, and that is still the case. It has been the sub- avoid commenting on individual complaints when ject of a couple of separate influences. One is that they are subject to inquiry by internal more policemen probably are deciding they think investigators or by another form of inquiry as is it is right to carry a Firearm and are requesting to occurring at the moment in Roebourne. I avoid do so more frequently than in the past. Perhaps commenting on individual allegations because it is more sergeants at stations are agreeing to allow [Thursday, 17 November 1983]186 4865 them to carry firea rms under that policy. A par- Murdoch who said that once the police carry ticular event in the last few months has had a big guns, there is a tendency for that to escalate the impact on that situation. That has been the armed carrying of guns by the criminal element. It is hold-up situation. When I convened a meeting interesting to note that the British Police Force some three months ago all organisations con- has been resisting the carrying of guns because cerned with armed hold-up situations, which in- the members feel it will escalate the carrying of cluded banks, building societies, etc., decided a guns by criminals and yet our police have the op- very clear contrast was drawn between New posite view. South Wales and Victoria. Numerous hold-ups Mr MacKinnon: Has any comparative study had occurred in New South Wales and a much been carried out with regard to Adelaide in South smaller number in Victoria. One argument put Australia? forward to attempt to explain that difference was that the Victorian Police Force has a policy of Mr CARR: Police officers in Adelaide are all police on patrol wandering in and out of banks, armed and I understand that every other Police building societies, TABs, jewellers, and any other Force is generally arming all police. They carry places where valuables are kept, to create the situ- guns all the time and we are the only State so far ation where anyone conducting an armed hold-up which has managed to avoid that situation, could Aind himself face to [ace with a policeman. Mr HASSELL: I have been out of the Mr Old: Is that an armed policeman? Chamber, but I wish to raise a point with regard Mr CARR: That has led to the situation where to the arming of the police. If the ground has policemen doing the job, from a personal safety already been covered, I will Find out later. The point of view, have said they do not want to be Minister expressed the opinion in the newspaper confronted with a person carrying arms unless some weeks ago that the arming of police would they are armed themselves. not happen, but it is happening. Mr Old: They need to be armed. Mr CARR: We have largely been through this point. I make it quite clear that two areas were Mr CARR: We have followed that up by giving discussed in the Press. The first was the general a clear policy direction for our patrolmen to arming of the Police Force and the other referred wander in and out of banks, building societies, uniform which clearly etc., throughout the city. This has led to more of to the change to summer those officers requesting to carry arms for their showed the guns being carried. There will not be a own sel f- protection. However, they are under very general arming of the Police Force and that is still clear instructions on how to use the arms and only our position. However, it does not mean that guns to use them as a last resort. They are certainly will not be-seen on those officers carrying them. under instructions to be concerned with the secur- Since the police are now wearing a summer uni- ity and safety of any others present. form, the guns are clearly visible. Another factor which has had an influence in Item 10: Support Services- creating the appearance that the carrying of arms Mr RUSH-TON: I realise and appreciate the has increased has been the change from winter fact that the Minister has said he does not have uniform to summer uniform. During winter, many support papers with him. However, there is a policemen were carrying guns under their coats large variation in support services and I wonder and they were not seen, whereas when the coats whether he is able to explain what this is about. came off on I November, the guns could be more Mr CARR: it does not come readily to mind, readily seen. but I will get an answer for the member. Mr Clarko: The same situation would have oc- Division 39 put and passed. curred some 12 months ago, unless there has been a greater incidence of the carrying of guns. Division 40: State Emergency Service, .Mr CARR: There probably has not been a SI 706 000- great deal of change. Mr RUSHTON: I was responsible for this area Mr Clarko: I do not argue with your policy. I in the past and, in fact, because of the floods last think it is a good one. year I became responsible for this item two days before I was authorised to act. Mr CARR: With the possible exception of the armed hold-up situation, I am rather surprised I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the that police officers and the unions should want people involved. There are some very dedicated the police to carry guns. I am very much in agree- permanent officers and over 4 000 volunteers. ment with the comments made by the member for Mr Carr: It is more like 5 000 now. (153) 4866 4866[ASSEMBLY) Mr RUSKTON: I was being conservative by real emergencies while I was there, so we put the saying over 4000. The people involved provide a system to test. There should be a test of the very good service and I do not think they receive national response. That is how one would relate to enough expressed appreciation from the general one's counterpart in the Commonwealth Govern- community. The work they perform is coming ment. Why I resisted was the expense involved. Ifr more to the forefront and I hope that they will re- one could sort out the relationship with one's ceive the recognition which they deserve. I think Commonwealth counterpart it would be the real breakthrough with regard to acknowledg- worthwhile. There is communication between ing the services provided came with cyclone State and Commonwealth officers; they meet fre- "Albf'. Certain weaknesses showed up on that quently. It is invaluable in a state of emergency occasion and we were fortunate that at the time when one can relate to these other persons and, Sir Desmond O'Neill happened to be Minister. having met them, have confidence. in them. In During the war, he had been a signals officer and fact we have had meetings here, and our people had considerable expertise in that area. He was go to other States. forceful enough and in a position to ensure that a One must be vigilant. One has to test the considerable amount was done to improve the system, keep morale high, and win one's share of system. Since that time, programmes have been the Budget year by year to see that the pro- improving and further in the debate I would like gramme continues. Progress in the emergency ser- details about some of them. I would like an indi- vices has been worthwhile. I know that the State cation from the Minister regarding the pro- Emergency Service would like to have a lot more grammes he has been able to establish. The of the Budget; but the Treasury is reluctant to priorities lie in the area of communication, but give it more. We are indebted to the service, also include Field support and regional buildings. which is conducted by a band of volunteers and The CHAIRMAN: Order! Would the two officers of high quality. I pay tribute to them in members holding a meeting between the member passing, and also encourage the Minister to make for Dale and the Hansard reporter please be more sure that he is fully acquainted with the total quiet or move to the rear of the Chamber! structure and to ensure that it gets some growth, because the service still had some way to go when Mr RUSHTON: I note that Geraldton was an I was the Minister. area which was quite enthusiastic about the estab- lishment of a regional office or building which Mr CARR: Members will notice that this is would encourage more people to participate. one area of the Budget in which there has been an increase from $1.3 million last year to $1.7 When I visited the service there, I noted that it million this year. The State Emergency Service is had the nucleus of a good force, but it does need in an interesting situation, because in a fairly few an extra building. Fortunately they have the use years it has grown very quickly to a reasonable of the old traffic office and this was of some help. level of preparedness; but it still has a long way to The provision of communication equipment and go to attain the standard we would like on a buildings undoubtedly lifts morale and helps with State-wide basis. It was pleasing that we were the recruitment of new members. able to increase the amount fairly substantially, I have visited the Belmont offices and recognise although it would have been nice to have ad- that this base is very significant and contributes vanced it further. greatly towards the encouragement of people in The member for Dale referred to the question training activities. Before the change of Govern- of communications as being a major part of the ment, I had intended to involve local authorities, emergency services situation. I would like to make including Belmont and Canning, which are fairly a couple of comments there, apart from the fact close to those headquarters. I suppose they take that there was an increase from $60 000 to the office for granted because they are so close. I 584 000 in the allocation. think it is something the Minister may follow up. I am concerned, as I know are several members if he has not done so already, to encourage some of the Government, about the fact that we have a of those rather large authorities to create emnerg- number of organisations which have an ency services in their own localities. involvement in emergency services and which The other point I would just like to make is in have a communications network of their own. The connection with the situation of emergencies in Fire Brigades Board, the State Emergency Ser- the year I was the Minister. When I was the Min- vice, the Police Force, the Bush Fires Board, and ister I had eight emergencies, which was more the St. John Ambulance Association each has than any other Minister for a long while. I some sort of network of its own. There is a little certainly believed in testing the system! We had concern as to the degree of co-ordination or some State-wide local tests. In fact we had eight otherwise. [Thursday, 17 November 19831 486786

Mr Rushton: There is a co-ordinating body. and acquaints oneself with the detailed infor- Mr CARR: There is a co-ordinating committee mation, one finds we cannot leave it to one type of doing some work in terms of assessing that,' but communication only; it must be backed up. A the Cabinet at Budget time was reluctant to pro- number of different people were involved in State- vide too big an increase in the communications wide communications, but I think "Alby" taught figure until such time as the review had been us many lessons. We must not be neglectful of undertaken so that we are assured that we are not dual systems which can respond in all sorts of providing something which is duplicated or which emergencies. might not be appropriate, depending on that rev- Mr CARR: Two aspects must be considered in enue. relation to the regional situation. One is the re- The member mentioned regional centres, which gional operations centres and the other the re- similarly rail into the same category. We deliber- gional co-ordinators. A number of regions have a ately did not provide any regional headquarters regional co-ordinator based in a regional oper- buildings in this year's Budget because we want to ations centre, while other regions of the State do make not have regional operations centres, but have re- sure that we are going the right way there.' My personal view is that we have the right sort of gional co-ordinators. structure with the headquarters sited already at At the moment we have in place four regional Belmont, with planning and regional co- operations centres at metropolitan north-that is, ordinators and local centres as well. My personal at Mt. Hawthorn-metropolitan south at view is that that is the right way to go about it. Fremantle; Carnarvon; and Port Hedland. As well We thought it better to take the review first and as those four regional operations centres, we have tackle the building programmes at a later stage. regional co-ordinators who are full-time em- The member mentioned the need for a good ployees based at Northam, Bunbury. and Albany link with the Federal Government. I will attend a recently appointed at Derby, and in the process of meeting with Ministers involved with emergency being appointed at Geraldton. services from various States in Macedon in Vic- The main reason for the difference in the fig- toria next Wednesday. It is sufficient to say that ures is that some of those appointments, in par- the Government is aware of the need to make sure ticular the Derby and Gera'.ton appointments of of links with the Federal Government. The co-ordinators, are just coming into effect and "Kangaroo 83" exercise did much to involve the some of the regional operations centres have only State Emergency Service and the police in a link- recently come into effect. For example, the centre up with the Federal Government, and I believe at Port Hedland was opened in April or May and much was learnt from it. the two metropolitan centres recently had official Finally the member referred to volunteers, and openings in their present format, although pre- I can only repeat his comments that it is viously the Mt. Hawthorn centre had served the tremendously important to have the number of whole metropolitan region. volunteers that we have providing such a valuable Division 40 put and passed. service. One can look at the State Emergency Ser- Division 41: Local Government, $1 219 000- vice, the fire brigades in the country, the Bush Mr CLARKO: I raise with the Minister the Fires Board, the Surf Life Saving Association, Grants Commission moneys; that is, the two per Association to find a and the St. John Ambulance cent of personal income tax. I am sure the Minis- range of people are involved in emergency situ- ter would be aware there is a certain degree of ations. We rely very heavily in our volunteers, and disquiet among country shires in regard to the al- they really do a very good job. locations this year. He would realise that the in- Item 8: Regional Centres and Emergencies- crease in the amount of money allocated this year Mr RUSHTON: I ask the Minister if he has compared to that allocated last year was only 8.2 any details of item 8. It is a big increase. He says per cent. The previous year's increase was ap- no centres are authorised this year; the Govern- proximately 21 per cent. As I understand it, $43 ment is reviewing that situation. I would like also million was allocated last year; in the previous to take the opportunity of commenting on the year $40 million was allocated; and $33 million communications aspect. The police tended to re- the year before that. It is obvious there are some sist these other services, but in a real emergency it problems just in the quantum of the increases. would be handy to have a dual system. I think it A further problem has been put to proved the need in cyclone "Alby". If we had had me-someone has sat down and worked out the that special service from the emergency services figures which I take to be correct-and that is, as well as the police. If one follows that through while the overall increase throughout the State 4868 4868[ASSEMBLY] was 8.2 per cent, country shires received only 5.88 combined local government associations through- per cent, while metropolitan local authorities re- out Australia to move from the position in which ceived an 11.75 per cent increase Therefore, local their moneys are allocated on the basis of a per- authorities in country areas felt they had been dis- centage of income tax to one of a percentage of advantaged. all taxes, which is what they have been seeking to The Minister will recall I asked him two do for some time now, along with their desire for questions about the Government's decision to allo- an increased percentage. cate the moneys on the basis of 70 per cent for Mr Carr: There are fairly mixed views on that need and 30 per cent for population. Previous within local government. Governments allocated the moneys in the obverse; Mr CLARKO: Perhaps the Minister would that is, 70 per cent on population, and as is re- comment on that, because it is important if he quired by the Commonwealth Act, 30 per cent on intends to take $40 million and divide it among need. local authorities which will be very keen to see the When I received the Minister's answer to the way in which it is allocated. I assume there is not First question I asked him another question, be- a great deal of difference between us on that mat- cause I could not work out his response. The Min- ter, but I reiterate that, from my side of politics, I ister's answer indicated that the big shires, such am opposed to the Government's policy to as the ones I represent-for example, the City of introduce adult franchise and compulsory voting. Stirling and the Shire of Wanneroo-were to We are very strongly opposed to that. We came to receive the same amount of money under the new our current position having communicated with system as they received under the old system. all local authorities in Western Australia in the The Minister may correct me if I amt wrong, sense that I wrote to them, although I cannot say either now or later, but I understand that the they all responded to me. However, when one puts Grants Commission works on the basis that it together the replies I received with the infor- takes the total sum of money, determines the ap- mation gathered by the Country Shire Councils propriate amount to allocate to each authority-I Association, I am sure the Minister will appreci- presume that is described as being on a needs ate that a large proportion of local authorities are basis or their perceived needs-and then examines opposed to what the Government has in its the position to ensure the Commonwealth pro- platform and policy. vision relating to the 30 per cent allocation on the Mr Parker: That is hardly surprising-they are basis of population has been covered, and, unless elected by that system. the authorities have misjudged the position, the Mr CLARKO: I do not say that at all. I am amounts are allocated. That is why I assume the saying that is the position of local authorities and Minister said those shires would receive the same I have indicated the traditional position of mem- amounts. bers on this side of the Chamber. That position is The position is incongruous. It seems that reinforced by our recent decision that we will re- neither the present Government nor the Govern- ject the Government's attempts to introduce such ment of which I was a part really played a prime Propositions. role in this area and the percentage allocation was just a little bagatelle on the end. Mr Jamieson: What is the position in all the other States? I would like the Minister to comment on the position as a whole and also as to the perceived Mr CLARKO: The position varies. As I under- reeling of the country shires that they have not stand it, New South Wales now has compulsory done very well this year. The Minister could also voting. It was reintroduced there. comment, bearing in mind his in-depth knowledge Mr Jamieson: Victoria had it last Saturday. of the financial position, on the fact that the in- Mr CLARKO: Compulsory voting was crease for the whole State this year was only eight reintroduced in New South Wales and, as I per cent as opposed to 21 per cent last year. understand the position, the percentage of people Mr Carr: It is two per cent of the income tax who vote at local government elections is nowhere collected by the Federal Government, and with near the percentage who vote in State or Com- the fluctuations in the economy, the same amount monwealth elections, where voting is compulsory of tax is not collected each year; therefore, the also. amount does not increase at a consistent level It is improper to force people to vote in local each year-it fluctuates. government elections when they show very clearly Mr CLARKO: I assumed that to be the case most of the time that they do not wish to vote. and it would add strength to the desire of the However, whenever major local issues arise the [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 486986

percentage of people who vote increases dramati- saying, "Why not let in any other authority that cally. wanted to be in it?" I very forcefully indicated I believe the Minister for Local Government is that the Government did not need to try out in conscientious and goes about his duties properly, practice a variety of rating schemes and that what so I was surprised to read comments he was re- the Government needed was a computer to put ported to have made in The West Australian. I the information through. The Minister did not assume these comments were made and reported take up that suggestion, but I notice in his recent in May last, although I do not have the date of Press release that went with the appointment of the extract. The comments read as follows- the member for Mundaring to such a committee LOCAL authorities would have to do more that he made specific reference to the use of com- to publicise local-government elections if puters and it seems to me he has widened the they did not want voting to be made compul- number of councils that will be involved. Again I sory, the Minister for Local Government, Mr wonder why, at least in terms of the bit he intends Carr, said yesterday. to put into practice, why he does not give every council that wants it the opportunity to partici- The low turn-out of eligible voters-only Pate. 10 per cent in some areas-was a cause for concern, he said. The Minister will also recall that when he pre- pared his amendments to the Local Government The Government favoured compulsory Act which were to cover the revaluation prob- voting as part of its electoral -reform pro- lemn-the phasing in of the scheme on a one-third: posals for local government. one-third: one-third basis-we on this side, and It continutes- the member for Floreat and I especially, strongly "The alternative is very strong action by supported an Opposition amendment aimed to councils to raise the level of awareness of introduce a form of payment of rates by instal- elections," Mr Carr said. ment but which was rejected by the Minister. He He was speaking to a meeting of the made a mistake that night when he said he saw no Country Shire Councils Association execu- need for it. tive. Mr Carr: Someone about your size made a mis- I would be surprised if the Minister was trying to take that night by moving an amendment to berate the executive on this issue. I would not achieve something which was already in the Act. have thought that was his normal style. However, Mr CLARKO: We said, and knew, that it those Statements appear under the heading was possible to have a variety of schemes by "Minister warns on local government vote". which people could pay rates; but what we tried to It is interesting-indeed I find it amus- do was to bring in an optional system whereby it ing-that in the Shire of Wanneroc in May of would be there in a way to guide councils. I am this year the council went out of its way to en- not trying to be too critical, but the Minister said courage people to turn out to vote in greater there was no need for it. numbers than usual. It spent a great deal of Surprisingly, the Minister issued a statement on money campaigning to get more people to vote. 22 October in which he said that he had prepared The interesting aspect is that the four sitting a model by-law which he thought would be a way councillors were defeated. Perhaps there is some that local authorities in WA could help their resi- sort of story in that. dents pay their rates by instalment. I can see very Just briefly I want to touch on the question of little difference between that suggested by-law the local government rating system. I have pre- and what we were trying to urge the Minister to viously indicated my personal view, which is not accept on that earlier occasion. I am not being necessarily the view of my party. critical, because the Minister is obviously quick to I am implacably opposed to the use of a rating learn from us, and on this occasion he followed system: I do not believe we should have a--system our guidance: as he did with the pilot scheme and that collects the money local government needs the one-third: one-third: one-third suggestion. I that is related to the value of land and/or prop- commend him for that. It is a pity he has not erty. It is quite inappropriate. I know the Minister picked up some of our other ideas. has modified his pilot scheme; that is, he has if I I will now touch on a matter I brought up in a read the Press correctly. 1 said before that if the question to the Minister which he suggested I Minister had a pilot scheme and chose just a should direct to the Minister for Employment and couple of authorities in which to operate it to see Administrative Services on the subject of employ- how it worked, it would be a good argument for ment programmes. Country local authorities have 4870 4870[ASS EM BLYJ suggested to me, as I have indicated previously, ginal? I cannot see how this situation can be con- that they are unlikely to qualify for these schemes sidered marginal. I have directed a question on when the principal factor is the unemployment this subject to the Minister and he has indicated level in these small country local authorities. that the question was seeking a legal opinion and When a person loses his job in these areas he gen- so he was unable to Provide an answer. erally departs the scene and moves to the nearest The ordinary councillor is in need of guidance. regional centre or to the city, so these local I-e cannot afford to turn to his own lawyer or risk authorities will be shown as having virtually nil any involvement. unemployment. If a high unemployment record is Mr Jamieson: It should be spelt out specifically a factor to receive aid under these schemes, these in the Act. local authorities will not have a chance to receive any assistance. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Half a dozen mem- bers are having a very noisy meeting behind the The other criteria which go with the unemploy- Chair, and I ask them to break up their meeting ment factor concern women, Aborigines, the dis- immediately. abled, and migrants. Those factors also probably will impact against these local authorities receiv- Mr CLARICO: This is a very serious matter ing any money at all from these programmes de- and the suggestion of the member for Welshpool signed to encourage employment. is one way of tackling the problem. These people give of their time voluntarily-I hope it remains I have previously raised with the Minister a that way. We will see what happens when legis- matter that concerns me considerably and I refer lation comes forward which will begin to re- now to pecuniary interests. 1 have already men- munerate them in various degrees depending on tioned to him the case of a councillor in the City the post they hold. It is very important that coun- of Stirling who was advised that she should not cillors are not placed in a position through ignor- vote on a particular matter which related to the ance of being caught going against the concept of placing of a roundabout in the Street in which she pecuniary interests when there are problems rife lived. For the life of me, I cannot fathom how in the community perhaps involving something people can say that in this circumstance she has a such as placing a roundabout in a street in which pecuniary interest. a councillor lives and so finding him supposedly Mr Jamieson interjected. having a pecuniary interest. If we carried this to Mr CLARICO: F am aware of the situation its logical extension, a councillor would not be involving the Canning City Council and I have able to vote on his district's planning scheme. been deliberately concentrating on a situation that After all, the Local Government Act says he can does not involve a court action. But this councillor vote on matters of rates, which is a clear pecuni- was told that she had a pecuniary interest in the ary interest, but this is specifically excluded in the matter. I have seen legal opinion in which a Act. When a district scheme is introduced and a prominent lawyer has indicated he does not be- council begins suddenly to rezone properties as lieve that sort of thing is pecuniary interest. For single residential or suitable for high-rise develop- the life of me, I cannot imagine how it could be. ment and the like, the decisions made could make Mr Jamieson: That relates to the value of the a very significant difference to the values of prop- property. erty in the area. We could reach the situation M r C LARKO: But over the last couple of years where the very ward councillors who were the throughout the City of Stirling generally, proper- most knowledgeable of what was appropriate ties have fallen in value, so the member would be would be prevented from having a say in the mat- hard-pressed to push that argument. If he were to ter. talk to real estate people in the area he would be In the platform of the Australian Labor Party told that properties have lost value over the last as of September 1982 there is a reference to the couple of years. The member's argument would party's intent to restructure the Local Govern- flounder on that point. ment Department. Could the Minister please ad- It is important that local government council- vise whether money is being set aside, if it is a lors be given an indication of what represents a question of money, to restructure the department pecuniary interest, and I urge the Minister to pre- this year and, if so, to briefly explain in what pare what I will loosely call a position paper on way? this subject for the benefit of councillors. If the It is appropriate I bring together the comment I fatuous incident to which I have referred is con- made earlier about the adult franchise and com- sidered to be a pecuniary interest, what will hap- pulsory voting and the point that the Government pen when we get to areas which are really mar- is likely to move into considerable difficulty if it [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 474871

seeks to implement its broad policy on local happy on behalf of the Opposition to applaud government elections which urges one-vote-one- the Minister for those things he is doing well. value, and the bringing of wards automatically into equality in terms of the numbers of people, Progress and so on. I assure the Government it will have Progress reported and leave given to sit again, problems in that area. on motion by Mr Tonkin (Leader of the House). On the one hand its policy seems to say that more power and freedom will be given, yet on the A DJOU RNM ENT OF TH E HOUSE other the Government seems to make misguided Sit tings ofethe House: Days and Hours statements about local authorities holding meet- ings during the day. The Government says em- MR TONKIN: (Morley-Swan-Leader of the ployers will be obligated to give employees who House) [10.42 p.m.]: I move- are councillors time off, and that those employers That the House do now adjourn. will be adequately compensated, and so on. I remind members we may sit, depending on how The Government will need its soft style to sell long we take with business, on Fridays starting that policy to local government, and even with the from next week. Minister's magnificent ambassadorial style of per- A reception will be held at Parliament House suasion he will ind his words falling on dear ears next Wednesday, and a reception will be held at if he tries to put them past the Opposition. Government House next Tuesday. On those The Minister has been well accepted in nights the House will be adjourned from 5 p.m. local government from my experience with local till 8.30 p.m. authorities. I am keenly interested in local govern- Mr Clarko: What hours do you anticipate sit- ment, but I advise members opposite that I will, ting on the Fridays? as I have done to date, bring out clearly to the Mr TONKIN: We will commence at 10.45 fore those parts of their platform with which my a.m. and not sit after dinner. colleagues and I on this side of the Chamber are in markcd disagreement. In terms of the Govern- Question put and passed. ment's administration and so on I am only too House adjourned at 10.43 p.m. 4872 4872ASSEM BLY]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE R. Connell and Partners in promoting showjumping events. L. R. CONNELL AND PARTNERS (4) See answer to (1) Consutia ncy Arrangements (5) Not applicable. 1945. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: (6) The Government has not sought to do (1) Is dhe Government currently seeking to this. finalise consultancy arrangements with (7) None. L. R. Connell and Partners? 2007 and 2008. These questions were further post- (2) For what public purpose would the ser- poned. vices of L. R. Connell and Partners be of benefit to the Government and people of MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL Western Australia? INTERESTS) BILL (3) As has been reported in the Press is Returns: Existing Members radio announcer Robert Maumill a con- sullant to L. R. Connell and Partners, or 2009. Mr LAURANCE, to the Premier: in any way associated with the firm or Will existing members be required to its principals? submit returns as required by the Mem- (4) What fees have been paid, or are liable bers of Parliament (Financial Interests) to be paid, to L. II. Connell and Part- Bill within 90 days of the Act coming ners resulting from that firm's into operation or will the First primary involvement in the Government's pur- return not be required until 31 August chase of Northern Mining Corporation 1984? N L? Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (5) Is any Government liability for fees in Existing members will be required to (4) calculated on a time basis, a total fee submit a primary return within 90 days basis, or on a percentage basis of funds of the Act coming in'to operation (see involved? clauses 4 and 5). (6) Would the Government be seeking to utilise the services of L. R. Connell and MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL Partners in securing funds from offshore INTERESTS) BILL sources for various Government pur- Family Residence poses? 2010. Mr LAU RANCE, to the Premier: (7) What discussions has he had with the Prime Minister relating to possible (1) Is it a fact that a member of Parliament overseas borrowings being arranged would have to disclose the address of the through L. R. Connell and Partners on house in which he resides with his wife if behalf of the Western Australian it is a normal suburban residence owned Government for use in Western Aus- in joint names by the member and his tralian development projects? wife and mortgaged to a financial institution such as a bank or building so- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: ciety, in order to comply with clause 6 (1) Consideration is being given to a (1) (a) of the Members of Parliament number of possible arrangements by (Financial Interests) Bill 1983? which expert advice and assistance may (2) Why should the wife of a member be re- be made available to the Government. quired to disclose her interest in such a Nothing has been Ainalised. property, when wives are speifically ex- (2) Any arrangement entered into by the cluded from the other sections of the Bill Government would benefit the public ac- and the second reading speech when the cording to the expertise of those with Bill was introduced specifically referred whom the arrangement was concluded. to the fact that the Bill will "require (3) This question should be directed to L. R. members of Parliament alone to disclose Connell and Partners. To the Govern- their financial interests"? ment's knowledge Robert Maumill has (3) Is it a fact that in a situation as outlined been associated with the Principal of L. in part (1) of this question no mention of [Thursday, 17 November 1983] 474873

the mortgage details would need to be (2) Specifically, would organisations such as disclosed because this information would Rotary, the Chamber of Commerce or be exempt under the terms of clause 13 the Australian Institute of Management (3) (c) of the Bill? be included under this provision? (4) Can he explain how the fact that a Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: member of Parliament who lives i n a (1) and (2) Professional or business associ- normal suburban residence with his wife ations are defined in clause I12 (2) of the and has a normal mortgage (the details Bill. of which need not be disclosed) will in Whether a particular association is some way be influenced in his views on caught by that definition, will be a matters before the Parliament? question of fact depending upon each (5) Does his Government believe that if a particular circumstance. member of Parliament has no interest in a family residence and therefore no fixed or permanent place of abode, that MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL he will be in a better position to decide INTERESTS) BILL on matters that come before the Parlia- Family Residence ment? 2012. Mr LAURANCE, to the Premier: (6) Will he give consideration to providing Is it a fact that under the terms of the an exemption in the Bill for the residen- Members of Parliament (Financial tial home of a member of Parliament Interests) Bill 1983, if a member lives in and his or her spouse? a house provided for him by his or her (7) If not, why not? parent, grandparent, brother, sister, Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or a lineal de- (I) Yes. scendant or the member, or of the mem- ber's spouse the member would not be (2) No person other than the member is re- required to list that property in the quired to disclose an interest in property, register? and the member is not required to ident- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: ify other persons with whom he may hold property, jointly or in common. On the understanding that "provided for" refers to the provision of rent-free (3) Yes, provided the loan secured by the accommodation, yes. mortgage was in the ordinary course of business. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL (4) Interest in any property may give rise to INTERESTS) BILL a conflict of interest situation. Failure to Comply (5) No. 2013. Mr LAURANCE, to the Premier: (6) No. (1) If a member fails to comply with section (7) Answered by (4). 4 (1) of the Members of Parliament (Financial Interests) Bill 1983, and is M EM BERS OF PAR LIAM ENT (FINANCIA L held to be guilty of a contempt of the Parliament and has his seat declared INTERESTS) BILL vacant under the terms of section 20 (1) Business and Professional Associatlions (b) is the member entitled to such ac- 2011. Mr LAURANCE, to the Premier: crued benefits as superannuation? (1) Can he define, and give examples or, the (2) If not, what is the actual position? type of professional or business associ- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: ation that would rail within the pro- (1) A member whose seat is declared vacant visions or clause 12 (2) of the Members under the provisions of section 20 (1) of Parliament (Financial Interests) Bill (b) of the Members of Parliament 1983 because they have among their ob- (Financial Interests) Bill 1983, W~ould be jects or activities "the promotion of the eligible for superannuation benefits as economic interests of its members in any provided for under the Parliamentary occupation"? Superannuation Act. 4874 4874[ASSEMBLY)

The benefits would be either- of the Budget in (2). However, the fig- (a) the appropriate pension provided ure 23.38 per cent in (3) should be 23.44 for under the Act where the mem- per cent. However, as I mention above ber has contributed to the fund for and also in reply to question 1642 those not less than 15 years, or has con- percentages do not compare like with tributed to the fund for not less like. than 7 years and is over the age of 55, or MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (b) in all other instances, a refund of Financial Interests: Influence twice the member's contributions and interest. 2027. Mr MENSAROS, to the Premier: (2) Answered by (1) above. (1) Could he please disclose how many oc- casions there were in the history of the Western Australian legislature when EDUCATION legislators have been influenced by con- Expenditure: Budget Allocation siderations of private personal gain? 2016. Mr CLARKO, to the Treasurer: (2) Could be also detail and instance these occasions? (1) In answer to a question from me re- cently wherein I requested the percent- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: age of the 1983-84 Consolidated Rev- (1) and (2) No. The purpose of the Mem- enue Fund Budget which had been allo- bers of Parliament (Financial Interests) cated to education, he replied that if the Bill 1983 is to strengthen public confi- item relating to the Northern Mining dence in its elected representatives. This Corporation $JL was excluded and an will be assisted by ensuring that any unspecified amount relating to Medicare conflict of interest situation is drawn to excluded also, then the percentage was public attention. 23.89 per cent; could he give a previous example of where items were excluded MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL from the Budget before a percentage INTERESTS) BILL was determined and announced as a per- centage suitable for comparison pur- Returns: Forms poses with previous years? 2028. Mr MENSAROS. to the Preier: (2) Taking the whole Budget, is it fact that (1) Has it been decided yet as to what forms the 1983-84 estimate for all education are going to be used for making returns expenditure is approximately 23.85 per by Members of Parliament according to cent when the all education expenditure the provisions of the Members of Parlia- 1982-83 was 24.32 per cent? ment (Financial Interests) Bill 1983? (3) Is it a fact that the 1983-84 Education (2) If so, would he table the forms to facili- Department estimate is 23.38 per cent of tate the pragmatic interpretations of thc whole Budget, when the estimate in certain provisions of the Bill? 1982-83 was 23.53 per cent and the Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: actual expenditure 24.02 per cent? (1) and (2) No. Clause 23 of the Bill pro- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: vides for the making of regulations, in- (1) I refer the member to my answer to cluding forms. In accordance with nor- question 1642. mal procedures, regulations and forms I am sure he would agree that in order will be drafted after the Bill has been to make meaningful comparison between enacted. years, allowance should be made as far as practicable, for extraordinary items MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (FINANCIAL and changed accounting arrangements. INTERESTS) BILL To do othcrwisc could give a misleading impression. Parliamentary Privileges (2) and (3) On the basis outlined by the 2029. Mr MENSAROS.to the Premier: mcmber, the arithmetic is largely cor- As in the second reading debate of the rect assuming he is referring to Part 10 Members of Parliament (Financial [Thursday, 17 November 19831 487587

Interests) Bill he referred to other partment of Resources Development and States, provinces and countries with the State Energy Commission of West- statutory provisions for legislators ern Australia. and/or members of the executive to dis- (2) As indicated in my response to question close their Financial interests, can he 1961 of 10 November, 1983, the alu- please tell the House which of these minium smelter will be subject to the statutory provisions include: same local content requirements that (a) the curtailing of legislators parlia- have been built into State Government mentary privileges similar to the Agreements for other recent major re- provisions of clause 19(l)(6) of the source projects. referred Bill; 2045. This question was furt her postponed. (b) the sanction of legislators' seats being vacated similar to the pro- INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT visions of clauses 20 and 21 ? New Developments Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (a) Clause 19 (1) (b) of the Members of 2047. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Econ- Parliament (Financial Interests) Bill omic Development and Technology: 1983 is based on section 6 (1) (b) of the Would he provide a list of all the new in- Members of Parliament (Register of dustrial developments he has initiated Interests) Act (South Australia) 1983. since becoming Minister, bearing in Section 8 of the Members of Parliament mind he did say he would provide such a (Registcr of Interests) Act (Victoria) list during the recent debate on the 1978 contains similar reporting restric- Small Business Developjnent Corpor- tions on the information published under ation Bill? that Act. Mr BRYCE replied: (b) Clause 20 of the Bill is based on section The State Government has provided en- 14A (2) and (3) of the Constitution couragement to numerous enterprises (Disclosures by Members) Amendment and is. through its policies and actions Act (New South Wales) 1981, together working to create an economic climate with section 9 of the Victorian Act in which industrial development can referred to above. take place. Clause 21 is based on s.10 of the Vic- torian Act referred to above. DRAINAGE Bunbary ALUMINIUM SMELTER 2051. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Water South-west: Local Participation Resources: 2041. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for (1) What was the total number of- Economic Development and Technology: (a) assessments; (1) Referring to question 1961 of 10 (b) levies or rate- November 1983, who will comprise the (i) charged; membership of the work party to be es- tablished by the aluminium smelter task (ii) collected, force to ensure maximum possible West- for the east Bunbury drainage area in ern Australian participation in the pro- the years 1979-80, 1980-81, 1981-82, posed smelter and power station proj- 1982-83? ects? (2) On what date did the Government abol- (2) What action will the task force be ish the east Bunbury drainage district? taking to ensure this maximum Western (3) What was the total amount of moneys Australian participation? outstanding and number of assessments Mr BRYCE replied: in arrears in each year referred to in (1) It is intended that the work party will (1)? be chaired by Mr R. Fisher, Director, (4) What action does the Government pro- Department of Industrial Development, pose taking to retrieve amounts out- and include representatives of the De- standing, and would he give details? 4876 4876ASSEMBLY]

(S) What is the total amount of revenue CONSUMER AFFAIRS involved? Kims Patio and Building Co. Mr TONKIN replied: 2058. Mr JAMIESON, to the Minister for Con- 1979-80 1980-3i 198142 1982-83 01) (a) No, of A~wss- 1540 1605 1733 1907 sumer Affairs: menlu (1) Is a firm calling itself Kim's Outdoor hibRites 11) $18749 $20065 $17 091 121 250 Chargrd Centre known to the Consumer Affairs Ries (2) Col- $12 134 $18093 $16436 $19550 Department in operating a sales service let ieJ formerly operated under the name of (2) The Preston River Drainage District has Carrington Leisure World? not yet been abolished; action to do so is (2) Is it a fact that about 50 determinations proceeding. have been made by the Small Claims (.11 Qut~ujncings 58105 $10 210 $10892 112763 Tribunal against Carrington Leisure No. ol &ssnv~ 204 238 272 399 World for failure to perform contracts (4) The Member should be aware of the entered into in erecting patios, etc.? provisions available in matters of this (3) As those individuals operating Kim's nature. Outdoor Centre are seen to be the same (5) S12 605.83 currently outstanding. as those conducting Carrington Leisure World, is the Department of Consumer Affairs able to take action to prevent WATER RESOURCES: MWA AND further persons losing money to this COUNTRY AREAS WATER SUPPLIES firm? Amalgamation: Steering Committee Mr TONKIN replied: 2053. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Water (1)Yes. Resources: (2) No. Ten determinations have been made Further to question 1933 of 1993 re- to date but other claims are yet to be heard. specting single water authorities as all appointments to the steering committee (3) There are no grounds for action at this made in March 1983 appear to have stage. The firm Kim's Patio and Build- professional financial expertise, what inl Co. was only registered on were the specialist qualifications of.- 4 November 1983. It is believed that some of the staff of the new Firm were (a) Mr G. Bathgate; formerly employed by Carrington (b) Mr V. J. Keenan-, Leisure World but the person operating the new firm is not the person who op- (c) Mr N. Marlborough. erated Carrington Leisure World. that demanded their appointment? 2059. This question was further postponed. M r TON K IN repl ied: I do not know where the member got the idea that all appointments to the RAILWAYS: FREMANTLE-PERT1I steering committee were appointed for Patronage: Average Number any particular expertise. They were mainly appointed because their organis- 2060. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for ations were to be intimately affected by Transport; the proposed merger. Messrs Bashgate. As unofficial reports indicate that the Keenan and Marlborough were ap- average number of passengers travelling pointed because they represent people between Fremantle and Perth on each who will be very much affected by the train number nine persons, excluding the merger. I am aware of the member's driver, the guard and the conductor, will he- prejudice against listening to the views of employees, but the Government (a) confirm this number; or makes no apology for consulting with all (b) indicate the average number of per- interested parties, including employees. sons on each passenger train be- tween Fremantle and Perth and 2054. This q uest ion was furt her postponed. give me the source of his figures'? [Thursday, 17 November 19831 487787

Mr GRILL replied: rolling capital budget which is prepared (a) The figure quoted is incorrect. each year for internal purposes. As I (b) A cordon count of passengers arriving have said on previous occasions, there and departing City Station on has been no comprehensive corporate Fremantle line passenger trains is plan for the MTT's future development currently in progress. Results for up until the 5-year plan, which is pres- Monday, 14 November and Tuesday, 15 ently being prepared at my request. The November show that a total of 5 976 plan will cover all aspects of the MTT's and 6 183 passengers joined or alighted future services, operations and finances. City Station from the 108 scheduled ser- If the Member considers that a compre- vices. This is an average of 53 and 57 hensive MTT corporate development passengers, respectively. Past surveys in- plan previously existed, it is necessary dicate that the City loading figures ap- for him to show the evidence. proximate 71 per cent of total passen- gers carried inclusive of passengers that TRANSPORT: BUSES travel to and from other stations on the Line: Routes railway line. From this it can be esti- mated that the total average numbers 2062. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for carried for each train would be approxi- Transport: mately 75 and 80 passengers for the two (1) For what services are each of the Metro- days concerned. politan Transport Trust linc-line buses The source of the data quoted is the now used? Metropolitan Transport Trust. (2) How' many standard size buses have been sold since I July 1983? TRANSPORT: BUSES (3) How many new line-line and standard buses are provided for in this year's Metropolitan Transport Trust: Improvement Pro- Budget? gramme (4) What loss has been incurred through 2061. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for less productive use of employees and Transport: line-buses since reintroduction of the (1) Does he deny that the Metropolitan Perth-Fremantle rail service? Transport Trust had a five-year Mr GRILL replied: improvement programme for public (1) Route 116 Rocki ngham- Perth (Semi transport in metropolitan Perth before Express) 19 February 1983? Route 166 Rocki ngham- Perth (Express) (2) Does he deny that there has been con- tinuous planning for public transport in Route 266 lnnaloo-Perth (Express) metropolitan Perth for many years? Route 727 Heathridge-Perth (3) If he denies the issue raised in ( I) and (Fastworker) (2). will he present evidence to support (2) Nineteen rigid buses have been with- his denial? drawn from service since I July. Seven Mr GRILL replied: of these have been sold to date. (1) to (3) When the Member became Min- (3) No new line buses have been provided ister for Transport, the Commonwealth for this year. Seventy-six new rigid buses Government had the State Grants have been included in the Budget as part (Urban Public Transport) Act, which of the normal replacement programme. provided Commonwealth funding for ap- (4) No loss at all. proved programmes to improve each State's transport system. In order to MINISTERS OF THE CROWN: STAFF qualify for the money, each State, in- Appointments: Additional cluding Western Australia, had to pre- pare a programme. When Malcolm 2063. Mr O'CON NOR, to the Premier: Fraser's parsimony ended the scheme, (1) Have any new Ministerial advisers been Wcstern Australia ceased to prepare a appointed subsequent to those listed in Public Transport Improvement Pro- papers tabled in this House on 3 August gramme, and was left only with the 1983? 4878 4878[ASSEMBLY]

(2) If "Yes", would he detail these ad- In conjunction with my colleague the ditional appointments in the same for- Hon. Minister for Transport. I shall mat? shortly be making an announcement re- to pre- (3) Have any of the contracts of staff ap- lating to the initiation of a study pare a Bike Plan For Perth. pointments listed in the 3 August papers been altered? (4) If so, would he provide details? HOSPITALS Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Country: Boards (I ) to (4) This information is being collated 2066. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for Health: and will be forwarded to the member as (1) How is the structure and membership of soon as possible. boards of management of country hospi- tals determined? MINISTERS OF THE CROWN: STAFF (2) Will he provide me with a copy of any regulations which govern such determi- Mr McGinty: Union Discussions nation? 2064. Mr O'CONNOR, to the Minister rep- (3) With reference to the Boddington Hos- resenting the Minister for Industrial Re- pital- lations: (a) who were the persons nominated to (1) On how many occasions has the Minis- fill vacancies on the board oF man- ter's adviser, Mr McGinty, held dis- agement; cussions with the parties to the Electri- (b) after the ballot, which of those cal Trades Union dispute? nominees were- (2) When were these discussions held? (i) elected; and Mr PARKER replied: (ii) defeated; (1) None. (c) did he give Ministerial approval to (2) Not applicable. those persons popularly elected to serve on the board of management; RECREATION (d) if not, why not; who were the persons finally ap- Cycles: Government Programme (e) pointed by him to the board of 2065. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for management; Local Government: (f) what reason can be given to justify What are the broad details of the their appointment if they were not Government bicycle 1983-84 pro- the same people elected by ballot of gramme (i.e., cycle paths, education, Boddington residents; etc.)? (g) how many residents of the Mr CARR replied: Baddington area voted in the ballot; $250 000, an increase over last year's (h) how many attended the annual funding of 25 per cent, has been allo- meeting of the board of manage- cated for bicycle policy spending in mmn? 1983-84. Mr HODGE replied: A large proportion of this total will be (1) The structure and membership of hospi- uilised in a SI SI grant aid programme tal boards are determined by the to local authorities for the provision of Governor in his absolute discretion, act- engineering cycle-related projects. ing on the advice of the Executive Coun- Part of this funding will be allocated to cil. ensure a continuation of the teacher (2) The Hon Member will be supplied with training programme aimed at a copy of the regulations. introducing the Bike-Ed instruction kit (3) (a) Dr M. C. Exley into school curricula, research projects, Mrs M. M. Howell poster and pamphlet encouragement and Mr K. J1.Austic, i.P. educational projects. Mr R_ T_ Meakes [Thursday, 17 November 1983]187 4879

M r T. Nichols (g) 93. Mr J. L. Gibbs (h) 96. Mr A. W. Thompson Mr G. N. Batt Mr P. J. Batt, i.P. FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE M r B. Hughes, .iP. Mr P. R. Carrotis Prosecutions: Number Mr R. Kelsall 2067. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister rep- Mr P. Betzold resenting the Attorney General: Mr W. R. H. Gordon (1) How many cases were handled by the The Annual General Meeting submitted Attorney's office regarding prosecutions the nominees in the following order of by the Department of Fisheries and preference: Wildlife in each year since 1980? (b) (i) Dr M. C. Exley (2) How many prosecutions were- Mrs M. M. Howell Mr K. i. Austic, i.P. (a) successful; Mr R. T. Meakes (b) dismissed; Mr T. Nichols (ii) M r i. L. Gibbs (c) pending? Mr A. W. Thompson Mr HODGE replied: Mr 0. N. Batt (1) Mr P. J. Bat., J.P. 1980- 38? Mr B. Hughes 1981- 285 Mr P. R. Carroits 1982- 435 1983- 534 Mr R Kelsall Mr P Betzold (2) Mr W. R. H. Cordon DksMssd Pendi., 1980 376 5 6 (c) Yes: except for Dr M. C. Exley in 1981 277 6 2 line with policy not to appoint to 1982 400 27 8 hospital boards medical prac- 1983 290 2 242 titioners who have a contract of ser- vice with the hospital. (d) See (c). FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE (e) Mrs M. M. Howell Cadets and Trainees Mr K. J. Austic, [.P. 2068. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for Mr R. 1. Mealces Fisheries and Wildlife: Mr T. Nichols What has been the Mr J. L. Gibbs number of trainees Mr G. N. Batt and/or cadets of the- Mr P. J. Batt, J.P. (a) wildlife investigation branch; (f) In order to provide continuity of ex- (b) fisheries investigation branch; perience and expertise, those who were already board members prior in each year since 1979? to the annual general meeting Mr EVANS replied: were chosen from the highest polling remaining nominees. This (a) 1/7/79-2 will give the board a bigger than I1/7/80-2 standard number of board members 1/7/81-2 until 1984, but after very wide con- 1/7/82-2 sultation with Shire, hospital, com- 1/7/83-2 munity and local members of Par- (b) 1/7/79-6 liament, and union representatives, it was decided this compromise 1/7/80-6 course of action was in the best 1/7/81-6 interests of the hospital and the 1/7/82-6 community. 1/7/83-6 4880 4880[ASSEMBLY]

CULTURAL AFFAIRS: LIBRARIES FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE Library Board of Western Australia: Abalone: Licenses Book Purchase and Replacement 2071. Mr BLAIKIE. to the Minister for 2069. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for the Fisheries and Wildlife: Arts: How many licences have been issued for (1) What has been the amount of funds abalone by- used by the Library Board of Western Australia for the purchase and replace- (a) type; menit of books in the previous two years? (b) area? (2) What is the allocation during the Mr EVANS replied: coming year? (a) (i) Haliotis roei 12; (3) Further to (ll), what has been the per- centage increase/decrease in Library (ii) Haliotis roei, Haliotis laevigata and Board funding in the years as above Haliotis conicopora 14; relative 10 the State's total expenditure? (b) (i) Area 1-6; Mr DAVIES replied: Area 2-8; (1) 1981-82 $2712930. Area 3-12. 1982-83 $3 256026. (2) 53028051. (3) The percentage of Library Boa rd FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE funding relative to the State Govern- Snapper: Exploitation of Industry ment's total spending has increased since 198 1-82 from 0.340 per cent to 0.358 2072. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for per cent. In the 1982-83 Financial year it Fisheries and Wildlife:. was 0.395 per cent. With concern being expressed by some persons associated with the Carnarvon FISH ER IES AN D WI LDLIFIE and Shark Bay snapper fishery that ex- panded exploitation of the Fishery will be Rock Lobsters: Licences detrimental, what is Government policy 2070. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Minister for in this regard and what future plans Fisheries and Wildlife: does the Government have to maintain (1) How many rock lobster licences are this fishery? issued to fishermen with Augusta as a residential addrcss? Mr EVANS replied: (2) Does the fisheries department have any The Shark Bay snapper resource has knowledge of the number of licensed been exploited for decades by rock lob- rock lobster fishermen using Augusta as ster vessels from Fremantle and a "home base", and if so, would he de- Geraldton. This exploitation has been tail? increased by the addition of other vessels Mr EVANS replied: in recent years. The increasing fishing (1) There are no holders of West Coast pressure has been recognised as a matter Rock Lobster Limited Entry Fishery of concern and an extensive research authorisations with Augusta as a resi- programme was commenced in 1981 so dential address. that the effect of this increased fishing There are 10 boats based iri Augusta pressure may be better understood. which hold licences to take rock lobster The Government's policy is to obtain op- outside the West Coast Rock Lobster Limited Entry Fishery. timum use of the various fishing re- sources throughout the State. This re- (2) The department has no precise knowl- edge of the number of licensed rock lob- quires the production of data, discussion ster fishermen using Augusta as a home with industry and consideration of the base management options available. [Thursday, 17 November 1983) 488188

HOUSING tamn the current staffing levels at Kalgoorlie Kalgoorlie/ Boulder. (3) The brigade has developed a corn- 2073. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR, to the Minister for puterisedl electronic telephone/radio Housing: system to improve communications and Could he please advise the estimated response and incident management at value of State Housing Commission and country centres. The board has taken Government Employees Housing Auth- delivery of the first unit and is installing ority building programmes in the it at Northiam for field trials and final Kalgoorlie/ Boulder area in 1983-84? testing, following which installation in Mr WILSON replied: other permanently manned country The estimated values of construction centres will proceed. Instalment at programmes in the Kalgoorlie/ Boulder Kalgoorlie/ Boulder is anticipated to be area in 1983-84 are:- mid to late 1984.

(1) Commonwealth/State (2) Aboriginal Housing I178000 RACING AND TROTTING Government Employees' (3) Country Clubs: Constitutions Housing Authority 935 000 2075. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Employment and Administrative Services: FIRES: STATION (1) Is he aware of the fact that some time Kalgoorlie- Boulder ago the Western Australian Turf Club 2074. Mr 1. F. TAYLOR, to the Minister for circulated country racing clubs wanting Police and Emergency Services: the clubs to present a copy of their Con- (1) Has he given consideration to the matter stitutions to the Western Australian of staffing levels at the Turf Club? Kalgoorlie/ Boulder fire station? (2) Can he please say if the WATC is en- (2) If "Yes", could he comment on any de- titled to demand copies of country cision that has been taken on this mat- racing clubs' constitutions? ter? (3) Is he also aware that recently country (3) Could he also give details of the instal- clubs received circular letters from the lation at the above fire station of a new WATC stating that they should now computerisedl telephone/radio system? alter their constitutions to provide that Mr WILSON replied: if the club ceases to operate, the assets shall become the property of the (1) I had asked the Western Australian Fire Brigades Board to review the staffing re- WATC? quirements of Kalgoorlie/ Boulder and (4) Does he know if the WATC has any other permanently manned country right to demand the alteration of centres. The review conducted indicates country racing clubs' constitutions in that in the long term, this manner? Kalgoorlie/ Boulder will require the Mr PARKER replied: staffing level now in place. This con- clusion is based on a broad ohilosophy (1) to (4) 1 am advised by the WATC that that has yet to be accepted by the board at the 1981 Conference of Provincial and Government. and Country Race Clubs, it was decided that all clubs should be properly consti- (2) I have taken into account the advice of tuted and the WATC was asked to im- the Western Australian Fire Brigades plement this decision. Board and I have received a number of other submissions on this issue. On that Since that date the WATC has been en- basis and rather than detract from the deavouring to complete the implemen- situation at Kalgoorlie/ Boulder, I be- tation of this resolution. lieve it would be appropriate to maintain In more recent times, there have been the existing fire-fighting strength. I have instances where the WATC has been advised the Western Australian Fire asked to give a ruling on the disposition Brigades Board of my decision to matn- of remaining funds when a small 4882 4882 EMB ~[ASS LY

country club has closed down (i.e. significant change in scheduling policy Nyabing). while he was Minister for Transport. The position has been difficult in the ab- Most Qantas flights to and from Perth sence of an adequate constitution for the now hub on Singapore. There are only country club. two Qantas flights ex Sydney to Perth The WATC has advised me that it has and two ex Perth to Sydney each week. no interest in acquiring the assets of This would represent less than 100 spare country clubs which close down. How- seats in each direction. The domestic op- ever, it does believe that where surplus erators offer about 10 000 seats in each funds have been derived from the TAB direction each week. The competitive distribution, then these funds should be implications of these two sets of figures retained within the industry for the ben- should be obvious to the member. efit of country racing clubs generally. The papers were tabled (see papers Nos. 464 to 467). TRANSPORT: AIR Fares: Interstate PORTS 2076. Mr RUSH-TON, to the Minister for Charges: Increases Transport: 2077. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for (1) For each year since 1978, by what per- Transport: centage have transcontinental, say (1) What increases in wharfage and other Perth-Melbourne, air fares been ad- port associated charges were raised at justed favourably as against air fares on the eastern seaboard; for example, be- each of our ports this year? tween Melbourne and Canberra? (2) Were these increases consistent with the recommendations of the special com- (2) Will he table a copy of any submissions made by this State Government to the mittee dealing with port charges? Federal Government or to the indepen- (3) If the answer to (2) is "No", what were dent air fares committee for reduced the committee's recommendations? transcontinental air fares? Mr GRILL replied: (3) Has the Government requested the (1) This information was supplied to the utilisation of empty Qantas seats be- member in answer to his question 108 of tween Perth and the Eastern States in 26 July 1983. Since then the wharfage our domestic services? rate on grain at the port of Albany has (4) If "Yes" to (3), what has been the re- been increased from 70c to 85c per sponse? tonne from I October 1983. Mr GRILL replied: (2) There was no special committee set up (1) The Government is not prepared to to review proposals for increasing involve senior officers in the Transport charges at ports. portfolio in hours of detailed work (3) Not applicable. preparing historical information on events which took place while the mem- ber was Minister for Transport. ANNUAL REPORTS His question should be adequately Ta bling answered in the graph which I am 2078. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for tabling. Transport: (2) Copies of submissions made, in 1980 to When will the following annual reports the Holcroft inquiry on domestic air for 1983 be tabled- fares, and in 1982 to the independent air (a) Westrail; Cares committee are tabled. (b) Main Roads Department; (3) and (4) The issue the member has raised is now redundant. If he had kept himself (c) Transport Commission; informed of developments in aviation he (d) Department of Marine and Har- would realise that Qantas introduced a bours; [Thursday, 17 November 19831 488388

(e) Western Australian Coastal Ship- TRANSPORT ping Commission; Road: Land Freight Inquiry (f) Fremantle Port Authority; 2080. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for (g) Albany Port Authority; Transport: (1) Has the land freight inquiry initiated by (h) Esperance Port Authority; this Government been completed? (i) Bunbury Port Authority; (2) If "No". when is it expected to be pres- (j) Geraldion Port Authority; ented to the- (k) Port Hedland Port Authority? (a) Minister; Mr GRILL replied: (b) Parliament? (a) Later this session. Mr GRILL replied: (b) tabled 16 November 1983; (1) No. (c) tabled 10 November 1983; (d) on the First sitting day in 1984; (2) (a) and (b) I expect to receive copy of (e) the report for the year ended the inquiry report next month, and 31 December 1982 was tabled on to release it after I have had the op- 26 July 1983. The 1983 report will portunity to study the document. be tabled in mid 1984; (f) tabled 16 November 1983; CULTURAL AFFAIRS (g) on the first sitting day in 1984; (hi) on the first sitting day in 1984; Museums: Country (i) later this session; 2081. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for the Uj) on the first sitting day in 1984; Arts: (k) later this session. (1) Is money allocated to country museums? (2) If so. how does a country museum apply for funds? (3) What guidelines and conditions apply? TRANSPORT Mr DAVIES replied: Deficil: Social Services (1) From time to time, but not on a regular- ised basis. Sources have included the In- 2079. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for Transport: stant Lottery, the Department of Tour- What portion of the Westrail and ism, the wage pause job creation pro- Metropolitan Transport Trust estimated gramme, the community employment deficits in the 1983-84 Budget are re- scheme, and the Australian Heritage lated to the social service rendered by- Commission. The latter does not provide funds for preservation of moveable ob- (a) Westrail; jects, only buildings and places. (b) Metropolitan Transport Trust? Guidelines are being formulated for In- Mr GRI LL replied: stant Lottery grants to museums, with

- (a) In view of the -proposed commer- special emphasis on conservation and cialisation of Westrail's activities, the cataloguing of collections, but appli- identification oF all the social service ob- cations have not been invited yet. ligations rendered by Westrail is (2) Direct to the bodies concerned. currently being researched. (3) As determined by the bodies concerned. (b) The details are presently being finalised Matching funds sometimes are required. and I expect to make a public announce- ment shortly. 2082. This question was postponed. 4884 4884I[ASSE MB LY]

MINING: PROSPECTING WASTE DISPOSAL: RUBBISH Licences: Application Fee Brockway Road Refuse Disposal Site: Complaints 2083. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister rep- 2086. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for resenting the Minister for Mines: Health: Can the Minister disclose what appli- Has he or his department received any cation fee is proposed to apply to the serious complaint from the community, prospecting licences? particularly residents nearby, regarding the operation of the Brockway tip? Mr BRYCE replied: Mr HODGE replied: The member is referred to the comments made by the Minister for Mines during Over the years, numerous complaints from Mental Health Services and others the debate in the Committee stage on have been received. However, manage- the amendment to the Mining Act 1978- ment of the site has improved over the 1982 recently. last few years and is now more accept- able. WASTE DISPOSAL: RUBBISH Brockway Road Refuse Disposal Site: Life WASTE DISPOSAL: RUBBISH 2084- Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for Brockway Road Refuse Disposal Site: Health Health: Hazards Adverting to question 1792 of 1983 in 2087. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for which he has advised that the expected Health: life of the Brockway tip under the pres- Has his department expressed any ent volume of usage is seven years, is he serious concern regarding the possible aware that the western refuse disposal health hazards in connection with the zone committee has received an engin- operation of the Brockway tip? eering report advising that the tip's life Mr HODGE replied: could extend to at least 1998 at the No, with the proviso of course that the existing annual fill rate? Department recognises sanitary landfill Mr HODGE replied: may be the cheapest method of disposal, it is not the ideal one from an environ- No. mental and public health point of view.

WASTE DISPOSAL: RUBBISH WATER RESOURCES Brock way Road Refuse Disposal Site: Transfer to Australian Water Resources Council: Suspension John XXIII College of Activities 2085. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for 2088. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for Health: Water Resources: (1) Does the agreement to transfer land at (1) Has the Commonwealth suspended the Brockway to John XXIII College in- activities of the National Water Re- clude a provision whereby the college sources Council? would not raise any objection to the con- (2) If so. who is going to decide about the tinued operation of the tip on adjoining States, particularly Western Australia's land? submissions about grants, and/or loans, (2) Does such provision, if it exists, extend re water resources programmes? to possible successors to the college as (3) Has the 1983-84 allocation for Western far as interest in the whole or part of the Australia been firmly decided yet? land is concerned? (4) If so, can he detail this allocation? Mr HODGE replied: Mr TONKIN replied: (I) Yes, for a limited period. (1) The Commonwealth Government has not suspended the activities of the Aus- No. This has never been considered. (2) tralian Water Resources Council. [Thursday, 17 November 1983J188 4885

(2) Although not applicable because of the WATER RESOURCES answer to question (1), this question is Australian Water Resources Council: Last Meet- misleading because the Commonwealth ing Government, and not the Australian Water Resources Couneii, makes the de- 209!. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for cisions in respect of Commonwealth Water Resources: financial assistance to Western Aus- (1) When and where was the last meeting tralia for water resources projects. held of the Australian Water Resources (3) and (4) The Commonwealth Govern- Council? ment's allocation to Western Australia under the National Water Resources (2) Who represented the State of Western Programme for 1983/84 has been fi- Australia? nalised and the details are as follows: Mr TONKIN replied: million (1) The last meeting or the Australian Water Resources Assessment I1.530 Water Resources Council was held in Flood Plain Mapping 0. 100 Canberra on I July 1983. Salinity Control 2.000 Harding River Dam 4.752 (2) I did. Also present, in an advisory role, was Mr W. S. Shelton, Acting Director Total 8.382 of Engineering, who is a member of the Australian Water Resources Council Standing Committee. WATER RESOURCES Dam: Stinton Creek 2089. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for RAILWAYS: FREIGHT Waler Resources: Could he please describe how far plans Rates: Negotiations arc advanced regarding the reported 2092. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for Stinton Creek Dam at Karragullen, Transport: what properties would be affected and (1) Have the negotiations between Westrail what is the anticipated timetable for construction? and the grain freights steering com- mittee been completed in respect of Mr TON KIN replied: Preliminary steps have been taken freight rates for the 1983-84 season? towards the proposed proclamation of (2) What is the outcome of these nego- the Stinton Creek catchment as a Water tiations, and when will the result be Reserve. made public? A set of draft catehment management guidelines has been prepared and dis- Mr GRILL replied: tributed to property owners for comment (I) Yes. and a display was held at Karragullen Hall on 12 and 13 November. (2) Freight rates for the transport of grain Planning for the scheme is at an early for the 1983-84 season have been in- concept stage. The area to be flooded creased by 10.5 per cent on 1982-83 will be very small but two properties may be partially affected. ra tes. In addition, there are approximately 190 This is a reduction of 5.1 per cent on the lots in the catchment area which will be contract escalation increase of I15.6 per covered by catchment management by- laws. cent. Present planning is for the scheme to be The results of the negotiations were constructed after 1993. made public in my Press release of 13 2090. This question was postponed. October. 4886 4886ASS EM BLY]

EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT ify for funding will dovetail in with the "Jobs on Local Roads" Programme: Number Em- programme for work on local roads that ployed is usually agreed upon between the Main Roads Department and each local 2093. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for authority? Employment and Administrative Services: (1) How many people in this State are (8) Are there ways in which the scheme currently employed under the jobs on could be improved in order that local local roads scheme (JOLORS)? roads in Western Australia could gain greater benefit? (2) When was the scheme first announced by the Federal Government? (9) Is his department satisfied with the (3) Will he provide details of the local amount of employment and the number authorities which have been granted of projects that have been created under funds under this scheme, including the this scheme throughout Western Aus- amounts involved in each case and the tralia? number of people employed? Mr GRILL replied: Mr PARKER replied: (1) The Commonwealth Government under (1) to (3) The JOLOR scheme is merely a its Community Employment Act 1983, component of the community employ- has provided $300 million for 1983/84 ment programme and whilst it was first for the community employment pro- announced in May this year, the pro- gramme, of which $70 million has been gramme was not officially launched allocated for jobs on local roads until 1 August. (JOLOR). The allocation of funds to To date only a small number of appli- each State and Territory was deter- cations have been received from local mined by the Commonwealth on a popu- authorities for grants for JOLOR proj- lation basis. The funds provided for this eets. These will be considered at a meet- State for this year;, ie., S7.l118 million ing of the employment programmes con- are guaranteed to this State. sultative committee scheduled for (2) No. Friday, 18 November 1983. (3) Yes. EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT (4) No. "Jobs on Local Roads" Programme: Funds (5) Not applicable. 2094. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (6) The Main Roads Department is not eli- Employment and Administrative Services: gible for funding under this scheme. (1) What involvement has he had in ensur- ing that funds made available under the (7) Yes. Under the guidelines all JOLOR jobs on local road scheme (JOLORS) applications are received and forwarded have been attracted to this State? to the Department of Transport in Canberra for assessment. Consultation (2) Have any local authorities contacted occurs between that Department, the him for assistance or advice in applying relevant road authority in each State, for these funds? and the Local Government authority (3) Have any requests from local authori ties concerned. been made to the Main Roads Depart- (8) As advised elsewhere JOLOR is part of ment for assistance to attract these the community employment programme. funds? The guidelines of the Community Em- (4) Does the Main Roads Department have ployment programme are under continu- anyone employed under this scheme at ous review and will next be discussed at present? a Labour Minister's meeting in March (5) If so, would he provide details? 1984. Any matters which have arisen (6) If not, why not? will be taken up at this time. (7) Are the guidelines for this scheme ap- (9) Please refer to my answer to question propriate so that projects that may qual- 2093. [Thursday. 17 November 1983]188 4987

EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT (2) Have any of the State ships in the his- "Jobs on Local Roads" Programme: Funds tory of the State shipping service ever been named after a living person before? 2095. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (3) Why did the Government decide to Employment and Administrative Services: break with the traditional nomenclature (1) What were the total funds appropriated for State ships on this occasion? by the Federal Government for the jobs (4) Has Mrs Irene Greenwood had any as- on local roads scheme? sociation with either shipping or (2) Of this amount how much, and what transport? percentage, were earmarked for Western Mr GRILL replied: Australia? (1) No suggested names were put forward (3) Of the Western Australian total, how to the Government by the WA Coastal much has actually been paid to this Shipping Commission. State to date? A list of past vessels of the fleet was sup- Mr PARKER replied: plied to the Minister for Transport as (1) $70 million for 1983-84. a guide. (2) $7.11I8 million or 10.17 per cent. (2) No. (3) $285 000. (3) The Government noted that previous names of Stateships vessels had some similarity; however, it was decided that EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT the long established tradition in mari- "Jobs on Local Roads" Programme: Guidelines time circles of naming vessels after no- table women was worthy of adoption. 2096. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for Employment: In accord with the Government's strong wish to honour a Western Australian (I) Has he or his department received any who had earned an international repu- complaints from local authorities that tation the name "Irene Greenwood" was the guidelines for the jobs on local roads chosen. scheme have been unavailable, difficult to comply with or slow in being pro- Mrs Irene Greenwood has earned such a cessed? reputation for her championing of women's rights, humanitarianism, and (2) Is he aware as to how many local the peace movement. authorities have made application for (4) It is not considered significant by the funds under this scheme? Government that a person after whom a (3) How many local authorities have had vessel is named has association with applications rejected? either shipping or transport. The Green- Mr CARR replied: wood name is well known throughout (1) No. Australia. particularly in northern re- gions. (2) 20. I do believe she was a passenger on an (3) Please refer to my answer to question early vessel plying on the Western Aus- 2093. tralian coast if the member considers that to be important. SHIPPING Western Australian Coastal Shipping Comn- TRAFFIC: MOTOR VEHICLE DEALERS mbission: Naming of Ships Licensing Board: Conditional Licences 2097. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for 2098. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Transport: Consumer Affairs: (1) What names were put forward to the With reference to question 1964 of 10 Government by the WA Coastal Ship- November, can he tell me why the ping Commission as suggestions for the Motor Vehicle Dealers' Licensing Board name of the latest ship to be acquired claims in its policy statement that it can for the commission? issue conditional certificates, and Ii- 4888 4888[ASSEMBLY]

cences, in light of his answer to that emn Australian companies or individ- question? uals? Mr TONKIN replied: (2) Could the Minister list those grants and There is no reference to conditional the companies or individuals who re- certificates or conditional licences in the ceived the grants? published statement of the Motor Ve- Mr BRYCE replied: hicle Dealers Licensing Board (1) and (2) The member should approach "Certificates of Registered Prem- the appropriate Federal Minister to ob- ises-Policy Statement". tain the above information. In order to discover what the member is referring to I table the policy statement WAGES for his examination. If he is able to di- rect me to any claim that the board can National Wage Case: increase issue conditional certificates or licences I 2101. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: will have the matter examined further. (1) When was the national wage increase of The paper was ta bled (see paper No. 468). 4.3 per cent handed down by the Federal arbitration commission? (2) Will this award flow through to State WATER RESOURCES Government employees? Gold fields: Prepayment Formula (3) If so, has any group of State Govern- 2099. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for ment employees yet received the award Water Resources: increases and, if so, who are they? Since it was reported in The Kalgoorlie (4) If no group has received the increase, Miner of 8 November 1983 that the when is it anticipated that the 4.3 per member for Kalgoorlie has requested cent increase will flow on to State award him to rearrange the prepayment for- public servants? mula for water supplies for major users Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: of water on the goldfields, will he say (1) 23 September 1983. whether this is a correct report and, if so, will he inform the House if any re- (2) Yes. arrangements have resulted from the (3) and (4) Authority has been given under member's request? the Salaries and Wages Freeze Act to flow on the increase to all State Govern- Mr TONKIN replied: ment employees. Because of pay ar- This was a correct report. rangements some employees may not yet In view of the limited amount of funds have received the increase but will do so for capital works presently available to in the near future. the State. and the long standing practice which has been developed by the State WATER RESOURCES over the last two decades, a change in the formula for capital payments by new Eastern Gold fields: Applications major mining consumers is not a matter 2102. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for which can be decided upon without ex- Water Resources: tensive and careful consideration. (1) How many applications does the Government currently have requesting additional water to be supplied for in- FUEL AND ENERGY dustrial and mining purposes in the east- Research Grants: List ern goldfields from the Mundaring to 2100. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister rep- Kalgoorlie pipeline system? resenting the Minister for Mines, Fuel and (2) What is the aggregate quantity of water Energy: requested in these applications? (I) How many of the Federal Government's Mr TONKIN replied: energy research, development, and dem- (1) and (2) The Government has no current onstration grants were granted to West- outstanding applications from persons or [Thursday, 17 November 1983]188 4889

companies who have defined their re- The Government has decided to retain quirement and have agreed to meet the this centre for use by groups and indi- conditions applicable to granting the viduals attending live-in training supply. courses, seminars, mature-age training Applications of this type should not be programmes, block-release, apprentice- confused with inquiries from those who ship training, country-based groups at- have indicated a need for a supply, but tending programmes in the metropolitan have not confirmed their intention to area, and by Government and private or- proceed. ganisations whose activities are compat- ible. (2) Present planning for the centre gives me WATER RESOURCES no reason to suppose that current staff Eastern Gold fields: Applications will not be retained. 2103. Mr MacKINNON. to the Minister for (3) The Government accommodation com- Water Resources: mittee examined future use of this (1) With reference to question 1985 of 15 centre, and as use of these facilities will November 1983, how many of the 24 not alter that much, it is not envisaged applicants for services requested and that its impact on the surrounding en- now connected still have outstanding re- vironment will generate any problems. quests for water? (2) What quantity of water is involved in INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: DISPUTE these requests? Electrical Trades Union: Discussions Mr TON KIN replied: 2105. Mr O'CONNOR, to the Premier: (1) All the 24 applicants referred to in question 1985 have been provided with a (1) On how many occasions has the Aus- supply. Two have since made inquiries in tralian Labor Party President and his respect of additional water entitl ements. ministerial adviser, Mr Tom Butler, held discussions with the parties to the (2) One inquiry is for an additional supply Electrical Trades Union dispute? of 500 kilolitres per day. (2) When were these discussions held? The other is for temporary supplies of either 50, 200 or 450 kilolitres per day Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: for 12 months only. (1) My adviser has had both personal and telephone contact and discussions on many occasions with the parties to this IMMIGRATION dispute. Noalimba Migrant Hostel: Future Use (2) Answered by (1). 2104. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for Multi-Cultural and Ethnic Affairs: (1) Could he explain to me what the future QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE role will be of the Noalimba migrant re- ception centre? EDUCATION: HIGH SCHOOL (2) Will all current staff employed at the centre be retained in that employment? Cannington: Political Speech (3) What studies, if any, have been done by 522. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for Edu- the Government in relation to the cation: alternative use proposed for the centre, (1) Does the Minister recall various dis- and the possible problems generated by cussions in this House concerning the traffic flows in the area as a conse- matter I raised with him of the political quence of this use? speech on electoral reform by his Feder- Mr DAV IES replied: al colleague, Mr Gear, made at Can- (I) The future role of the Noalimba Recep- nington Senior High School, and his re- tion Centre will not alter from its basic sponse? function of providing short-term accom- (2) Does he recall his latest response that he modation facilities. would discuss the matter with Mr Gear 4890 4890(ASS EMBLY]

and seek from him an appropriate assur- he saw them he should get back to me. ance especially in view of Mr Gear's He has not done so, so I guess I can re- statement in the Daily News that he was port I have an assurance of a sort from not going to abide by the Minister's Mr Wells. ruling? (3) Has he spoken to Mr Gear and what re- LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MANDURAH sponse has he had; has he received any SHIRE COUNCIL undertaking from the member to comply with the Minister's most proper ruling? Canal Development: Referendum Mr PEARCE replied: 523. Mr READ, to the Minister for Local Government: (1) to (3) It is the case that the last time the member raised this matter I gave an What action can the Government take undertaking I would discuss with two to assist those residents or the Shire of members. Mr George Gear, the member Mandurah who are seeking a local for Tangney. and Mr Peter Wells, one of government referendum on possible the members for North Metropolitan canal development within the shire? Province, the question of their adherence Mr CARR replied: to the guidelines. I have discussed the The question of holding such a matter with both members personally. I referendum is entirely at the discretion spoke by telephone with Mr Gear on the of the Mandurab Shire Council. The following day, and in essence he told me Government has no power to give any he denied he had made an improperly direction. political speech at the Cannington Senior High School. Mr MacKinnon: ]I would be the first non- SHOPPING political speech he has made. Trading Hours: Butcher Shops Mr PEARCE: The member for Murdoch may say that. Mr Gear denied he had 524. Mr OLD, to the Premier: made a political speech at the school and (1) Does he recall writing to the secretary of told me he would have no difficulty in the Meat Industry Employees' Union adhering to the guidelines, and gave an giving an undertaking that if elected to assurance he would adhere to them. Government he would guarantee trading Mr MacKinnon: Even Labor members of hours for butchers' shops would not be staff at the school objected to what went extended during his term of office? on. (2) If yes, is it his intention to honour that Mr PEARCE: He told me he had never said promise irrespective of the findings of to a reporter from the Daily News that the committee of inquiry into shop he would defy the guidelines. He had trading hours? said that because he had not made a pol- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: itical speech at the high school he would (1) and (2) I cannot recall the letter to not be worried about giving a similar which the member refers. If he provides speech in other schools. Mr Gear said he me with a copy and puts the question on would adhere to the guidelines but the Notice Paper I will answer it. pointed out the speech he gave at the Cannington Senior High School also ad- hered to the guidelines. LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MANDURAH Mr Wells was a little less direct in SHIRE COUNCIL giving the kinds of assurances I sought. I Canal Development: Referendum twice discussed it with him in the corri- dors of the Parliament and on both oc- 525. Mr READ, to the Minister for Planning: casions he said he had not seen the What effect would the result of a local guidelines and would not give an assur- government referendum with respect to ance short of having seen them. I sup- a planning matter have on the decision pose that is fair enough. On the second of his department when considering a occasion I said that if he had any diffi- planning amendment submitted by that culty in adhering to the guidelines when local authority? [Thursday, 17 November 1983])89 4891

Mr PARKER replied: WATER RESOURCES The Town Planning Board which makes Dam: Upper Helena River recommendations to me in relation to rezoning applications has to consider a 527. Mr TONKIN (Minister for Water Re- whole range of issues in making those sources): recommendations. No doubt exists that An answer was given in the Legislative the board in considering those matters Council the other day by the Leader of would consider the result of a the House of my behalf. I want to cor- referendum as one of the matters it rect it as follows- should take into account. 1, as Minister Mr N. F. Moore stated in posing the question that it was reported making the ultimate decision, would in the Kalgoorlie Miner on 8 November take that matter Seriously very and in- 1983 that the Government had plans deed, in the case of the matter to which for the building of a new dam on the the member referred a few moments upper Helena River. This ago--the referendum in Mandurah-I interpretation of the report was mis- specifically asked the shire to bring for- leading in that the article in the ward its referendum so that in making Kalgoorlie Miner quoted Mr Ian my determination on Mandurab scheme Taylor, MLA for Kalgoorlie, as say- IA 1 could have the benefit of the ing that plans for the future included knowledge of the attitude of ratepayers provision of a new dam on the upper Helena River. Although the Govern- of Mandurah in the referendum pre- ment has no current plans for building viously proposed by the shire. It would the dam at this stage, feasibility not be regarded as having any binding studies for such a dam have taken effect, but would be taken seriously by place and its construction can be the board and by me as Minister respon- scheduled whenever the need arises. sible for final approval. Mr MacKinnon: What a beauty!

BUSINESSES: SMALL INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: DISPUTE Small Business Advisory Service Lid.: Problems Electrical Trades Union: Effect on South-west 526. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister for 528. Mr BLAIKIE, to the Premier: Economic Development and Technology: (1) Is the Premier aware of the reports that What problems have been experienced the Worsley alumina refinery has de- by the Small Business Advisory Service ferred indefinitely the intake of raw ma- Ltd. with other Government agencies or terial because of the Electrical Trades departments which led him during the Union's strike which will have a serious second reading debate to indicate that effect on employment levels and the one of the major reasons for converting economy generally in the south-west? Western Collieries Ltd. will lose $I company to a corporation was to million each month during that period of improve its status in Government and to suspension. overcome those problems? I remind the (2) What action has the Government taken Minister of his commitment to examine to ensure that those responsible for this this position which, if it were a major wildcat action are brought to heel? reason would be evident, and to report (3) What guarantees can the Government back, which he failed to do during the give that sanity will be restored to the debate. workplace? Mr BRYCE replied: Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: The member's memory is obviously very (1) to (3) I am pleased the member for short indeed. I recall answering those Vasse has asked the question. questions towards the end of the debate The Leader of the Government ini the in the Committee stage; I see no reason Legislative Council has during the last to elaborate and repeat the answer right half an hour issued a very Strong State- now. ment in the Government's name 4892 4892(ASSEMBLY]

referring to the matters raised by the Mr O'Connor: The Opposition would join member for Vasse. The Leader of the with the Government in an effort to Government in the Legislative Council overcome this problem in any way at all. has called on all striking ETU members Mr BRIAN BURKE: I appreciate that com- to return to work immediately and has ment and it stands in stark contrast to stressed the cost to the State, as well as the one made by the member for to individual enterprises, of the pro- Nedlands. longed and very serious industrial action We hope the Opposition will support the that has been taken. action taken by the Government in call- He has pointed out that the stoppage is ing for these strikers to return to work. the most serious challenge we have yet We urge the Opposition to recognise encountered to the prices and incomes that this is not a time for political ad- accord and he has warned that the ac- vantage to be wrung from a series of dis- cord could founder completely in a tressing situations. We have the settle- national sense on the basis of this stop- ment of the dispute as our first priority page. For the interest of members, if the and that settlement will be attended to increases sought by the striking electri- by a commission which supports the cal tradesmen are granted the result will Government in its demands. be that unionists working alongside their Mr Blaikie: What are you doing about this fellows will be earning as much as $78 a very serious problem in the south-west? week more. It has already become per- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know how fectly clear that in that event initiatives thick the member for Vasse is- will be taken by those lesser paid workers to receive the extra amount. Several members interjected. The Minister has also made it perfectly Mr BRIAN BURKE: It has been public clear that the Government recognises knowledge for some time that action has the morality which stands behind the been taken for the ETU to be claim the striking workers have made. deregistered unless it can show reason For the interest of members, it is rel- that deregistration shall not proceed. No evant to say that the striking ETU sanction more serious than workers have previously entered into a deregistration can be taken against an bargain with employers that would have industrial union of workers. That seen two increases granted, one of $I8 deregistration is listed for hearing, I and one of $20. Through no fault of the understand, within the next seven days electrical contractors or employers, and in the Industrial Commission. This is the certainly not of the union members most serious sanction that can be lev- involved, those two increases as agreed elled against any industrial union of workers. If the Opposition wants to try upon have been set aside. Despite any to fairness, justice or morality evidenced in wring political advantage from that situation, two points should be remem- that claim, the truth is that the general bered: Firstly, the Opposition will fail good must be observed on behalf of the because it tried overtime to do just that economy of this country and on behalf during the period leading to the last of every citizen of the country. That election: and, secondly, and more general good requires the guarding and seriously, if the Opposition takes that maintenance of the prices and incomes course it will do a disservice to the State. accord. This persistence is the single This group of workers is in a very most important thing in making sure serious situation and deregistration of that the burgeoning or incipient recovery the union is nothing to be smiled fondly becomes fully blown and is sustainable. upon. Mr Court: Does that include Government Other unionists who can see some justice charges in the prices side of it? and morality in the claim of these union- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I hope members of the ists should not be encouraged to take ac- Opposition will accept that our way of tion which might endanger the situation. dealing with industrial relations diffi- If the Opposition does that the responsi- culties is not theirs. bility will rest on its shoulders. [Thursday, 17 November 19831 489389

SUPERANNUATION election policy commitments for the National Scheme: Prices and Incomes Accord Kimberley. 529. Mr O'CONNOR, to the Premier: A major regeneration project has been I refer to the superannuation scheme designed, and we have given it high pri- suggested by the Federal Minister, Mr ority as indicated in our Budget allo- Willis, and ask: Does the Government cation for 1983-84 of $237 900 for the feel that the scheme suggested would first stage. also affect the prices and incomes ac- The Government is working in conjunc- cord? tion with pastoralists and local govern- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: ment in aspects of the programme. I do not have the details of the superan- Work has started already on one of the nuation package which has been areas involved. suggested as a way of complying with the anomaly provisions of the accord. I As part of the programme, the area is understand that the building workers' being gazetted a soil conservation dis- claim is isolated from any flow-on ef- trict. Later, a local advisory committee fects which might affect the accord and will be formed. agreement has been reached between This year's programme involves a team employers and unions some time ago of eight. They have started some regen- taking into account, firstly, that it does eration work already on one of the areas not multiply itself beyond that industry; and, secondly, that there is general in the form of strip cultivation and seed- agreement on the terms of the package. ing. I understand the superannuation sugges- Before the wet season, about sixteen tion made by Mr Willis complies with kilometres of electric fence will be the accord because it goes to the erected around a regeneration area to anomaly section of the accord which test its effectiveness in those conditions. permits certain agreements to be entered A range of grasses with the potential to into. grow on the clay soils will be tested at experimental sites. RIVER Mr Old: Was any work done last year? Fitzroy: Degeneration Mr EVANS: The member for Katanning- 530. Mr BRIDGE, to the Minister for Roe will admit Agriculture: that it is a long-term project. When will the Government move to overcome the degeneration of the Mr Old: Was it started last year? You are Fitzroy River frontage, which is costing making out it has just been started. the Kimberley cattle industry $I million a year? Mr EVANS: It has been going on for some time, as has the Ord regeneration. I Mr EVANS replied: would have expected the member for The cost the member referred to relates Katanning-Roe would be happy to know to the production loss due to denudation that not only- of about I 300 square kilometres of the Fitzroy River plains. This was formerly Mr Old: I am happy to know that you have very productive country, degenerated by carried it on. That is all. years of heavy continuous stocking. Mr EVANS: -is it being continued, but also Today, according to rangeland manage- it is being extended. I would have ment experts, it would carry only 2 0 cattle units, but if properly reclaimed it thought the member for Katanning-Roe should carry 60 000. would be quite happy about that. I am sure he is, actually. The Government has recognised the urgency of restoring this country. A re- Mr Old: I am, with $85 000 last year ear- generation project conforms to our pre- marked for the Fitzroy! 4894 4894[ASSEMBLY]

EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT Mr PARKER replied: School Lea vets: Strategy This has some relevance to the question just asked by the member for Nedlands. 531. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Employ- given ment and Administrative Services: The Secret Harbour project was "in principle" approval originally by the (1) Is his office preparing a strategy to former Government, but not a great deal handle school leavers entering the work of work has been done on it. After we force this Christmas? came into Government, the project par- (2) Is he confident that several major con- ticipants approached us and told us they struction projects will commence early wanted us to give "in principle" ap- in the new year to assist in improving proval, which we did. Secondly, they the employment opportunities for people wanted us to take more action than had at all age levels? been taken previously to process the matter. We did precisely that, and we Mr PARKER replied: have been congratulated in the Press (1) The State employment task force has several times by the project participants been completing a policy paper on youth for our innovative approach to the mat- unemployment and options for the ter. Government in that area. Of course, it As a result of that, the matter has prog- would involve such things as school ressed to a considerable degree, and an leavers. It is expected that the report agreement is in the final stages of will be concluded and in my hands in the drafting. The agreement between the near future and I will have the oppor- State and the Secret Harbour partici- tunity to consider the options. pants should be signed within the next Because the number of people in em- few days. It is anticipated that a simple ployment in this State is very much Bill ratifying the agreement will come greater than it was at the same time last before the House before the end of the year, and because the rate of unemploy- session. ment has fallen, the prospects in this I was advised today that the Foreign area, although they are not as good as Investment Review Board in Canberra we would like them to be, are certainly had approved the Secret Harbour appli- better than the employment prospects of cation for the capacity to seek foreign last year. funds for the project. It now appears certain that the Secret Harbour project (2) Of course, the housing industry has will be able to go ahead before taken off in a very dramatic way since Christmas. the Government's plans have been put into effect, but I am not sure that will have any great effect in relation to EDUCATION young school leavers. They will provide a significant amount of employment. School Buses: Guidelines A number of major construction projects 533. Mr OLD, to the Minister for Education: are under way or about to commence, Can he give an indication when the new but I am not in a position to detail those guidelines for school bus operator con- in the answer to a question without no- tracts will be announced, as there is tice. Certainly I am confident of an some apprehension amongst the country improvement in that area. operators? Mr PEARCE replied: Last Monday I met for the fifth or sixth SECRET HARBOUR time with members of the Road Transport Association in an attempt to Project: Current Status finalise the negotiations. The member 532. Mr BARNETT, to the Minister for will understand that the Cabinet made a Planning: decision last March to go to open ten- der, and that decision still stands. A Can he advise the current situation in series of negotiations has been going on relation to the Secret Harbour project? to find an acceptable substitute for that [Thursday, 17 November 1983]189 4895

policy. I had hoped to put the matter be- Primary School due to winter flooding, Core the Cabinet on Monday week, and I can the Minister advise what progress, if gave the Road Transport Association any, has been made to overcome the the opportunity of preparing documents problem? of its own on a couple of outstanding Mr McI VER replied: matters on which agreement had not An inspcction of the site has been car- been reached by the working party. The association was to have that material in ried out and the Education Department my hands this morning so that it could has now given approval for $45 000 worth of drainage works to be carried be processed for the Cabinet before it was discussed on Monday week. When out by the Public Works Department. the officers of the association came to This work will be done over the coming me this morning, they did not have the summer months. documentation ready. In fact, they had no documentation at all. Therefore, I LAND: ABORIGINES have extended their time for submitting written arguments until Thursday of Rights: Government Policy next week. 535. Mr CRANE, to the Deputy Premier: I am still hopeful that the matter will be I must direct my question to the Deputy considered by the Cabinet as an urgent Premier because the Premier is not item on Monday week. available. Mr Old: You are endeavouring to get it in as Mr Tonkin: I can do it if you like. an urgent item? Mr CRANE: In view of the recent Press an- Mr PEARCE: Yes. nouncement that the Federal Govern- With a bit of luck, the decision will be ment is handing back Ayers Rock to the made on Monday week. If not, I expect Aboriginal people who live in the area, is it will be made on the following there any substance in the suggestion Monday. that the Western Australian Labor Government is planning to do likewise EDUCATION: PRIMARY SCHOOL with areas in Western Australia, includ- ing Wave Rock and Kings Park? Gibbs Street: Flooding The SPEAKER: I rule that question out of 534. Mr BATEMAN, to the Minister for order because it does not come within Works: the ambit of the portfolio of the Deputy In view of the dangerous situation which Premier. Only the Premier can answer exists in the grounds of the Gibbs Street questions of public concern.