The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Seattle, Washington

American and German Fighter Pilots

Recording Date: May 1961

2

Abstract: This recording contains conversations between German and American fighter pilots regarding their military service during World War II. The conversations took place during a goodwill meeting between the American Fighter Aces Association and the Fighter Pilots’ Association that was held in in May 1961. Excerpts from this recording were later used in a highlight reel about the event. Identified speakers include Werner Andres, President of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association; Eugene A. Valencia, Vice President of the American Fighter Aces Association; German Air Force officers , , and Neumann; and American Air Force officer Raymond F. Toliver.

Background:

In May 1961, members of the American Fighter Aces Association visited as part of a goodwill meeting between them and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association. During their week-long visit, they toured German air bases and attended various events, including a war memorial dedication in Geisenheim, Germany. Several moments from the meeting were recorded, such as goodwill gestures and conversations between American and German fighter aces.

Restrictions:

Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.

Transcript:

Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3

Index:

Werner Andres accepting the return of ’s award ...... 4

Conversation between Raymond F. Toliver, Eugene A. Valencia, Gerhard Barkhorn, and Erich Hartmann...... 5

Remarks from Major Neumann ...... 8

Conversations about teamwork and unmanned weapon systems ...... 10

4

American and German Fighter pilots

[START OF INTERVIEW]

00:00:00

[Werner Andres accepting the return of Werner Mölders’s award]

WERNER ANDRES: [speaking in German]

TRANSLATOR: Gentlemen, Colonel Jenkins, I really thank you very much for your broad- minded presentation. I believe that the handover of this special document really is in the same meaning aspects of our present meeting and will further deepen and confirm our good relationships and contacts. We think that we fighter pilots have a good supposition for such relationship. We, of course, are not god-like, but we are only human beings with many weak and a few good characteristics. We all fighter pilots belong to the same type of people and have always got along very good and had always an excellent understanding. We have already found out and noticed in these few hours that we have been together that you gentlemen from the American Fighters Aces Association, exactly like us, only pay attention to the really important things of life. We believe that this meeting and the get-together of our two associations is of quite some importance for the future. The political situation of the world forces our nations to unity. For the free world, it will be important that our unity and alliance not only is a matter of sense, but comes out of our hearts. We are sure that your visits, you gentlemen from the States, and your friendly hospitality [unintelligible 00:07:41] and the gentlemen of your base, already have served this purpose. I’ll, of course, hand this document over to Mrs. Mölders and, again, thank you very much for the presentation and handover of this document. Thank you.

00:03:03

EUGENE A. VALENCIA: This has certainly been an honor to be here on such a momentous occasion. Would you explain the significance of the decoration?

TRANSLATOR: Yes. Well, this document was presented to Colonel Werner Mölders when he received this award to the Oak Leaf of the Knight’s Cross. While Mölders was the first with more than 100 victories—

EAV: Let’s start over again. Go ahead. Start over again. Would you cut in again, please [unintelligible 00:03:28]?

TRANSLATOR: Well, this document was presented to Colonel Werner Mölders when he received this award to the Oak Leaf of the Knight’s Cross. Mölders was the first fighter pilot with more than 100 victories. He was not only a good pilot, but he always has been symbolic to 5

us German fighter pilots here. And he was, for us, practically what Richthofen was in .

EAV: Thank you very much.

[recording stops and starts again 00:04:02]

[Conversation between Raymond F. Toliver, Eugene A. Valencia, Gerhard Barkhorn, and Erich Hartmann]

EAV: Ladies and gentlemen, again, during one of our brief recesses in our star-studded “Ace of Aces” program, I would like to turn the microphone over to Colonel Ray Toliver, at which time we’ll introduce two of the greatest—and three of the greatest aces in the German Air Force. Colonel Toliver, as you know, is the world authority on the documentation and justification of worldwide aces. Colonel Toliver.

00:04:47

RAYMOND F. TOLIVER: Let’s talk a little bit about the decoration system that they had in Germany during World War II. We are honored tonight to have with us the number one ace of the world, the Richthofen of World War II, Erich Hartmann, Lieutenant Colonel Erich Hartmann, and Colonel Gerhard Barkhorn, the number two ace of the world, both pilots of JG 52—and Barkhorn with many other units, as well as Hartmann, I believe. [sound of microphone being adjusted] Erich, I see by the ribbons that you are wearing tonight that you flew over 1,400 combat missions. This is very easy to tell on the German decorations if you look very, very closely at the ribbons because on the lower left-hand corner—they wear an all dark blue or dark black ribbon with an eagle , which gives the number of missions, or at least the area of the number of missions they’ve flown. They had two systems here. They had a system called a start. A start was where they took off on a mission. Then they had what they called rhubarbs, which were missions that ended in a combat with an enemy. Both of these men were with a fighter wing on the Russian front called JG, or Jagdgeschwader, 52. That’s not very good German, is it, gentlemen?

GERHARD BARKHORN: I would say “Jagdgeschwader,” [speaking German].

RFT: Thank you, Colonel Barkhorn. I believe that was the commander at that time. Prior to that, a man by the name of Dieter Hrabak, a very famous fighter pilot also in the German Air Force, and now, as of lately, a commander of Fürstenfeldbruck of the training wings and now commander of all of the training wings in the south of Germany. [pause as airplane flies overhead] Erich, how many missions did you fly while you were on the Eastern Front? All of 6

your—almost all of yours were on the Eastern Front. How many did you fly while you were there?

00:07:27

ERICH HARTMANN: Oh, the exact number, I don’t know, but—

RFT: Well over 1,600?

EH: No, not so much.

RFT: Well, his ribbon says that he flew over 1,400. So it’s obvious that in the three years that Erich, perhaps the youngest one of the aces, flew well over 1,400 missions—combat missions or rhubarbs. He is also the top ace of the world with 352 confirmed victories. Barkhorn, who flew—how many missions, sir?

GB: 1,104.

RFT: 1,104 missions, and he wears the ribbon showing 1,100-plus. Steinhoff [], our friend in the United States who is on the military NATO commission—he is the German representative on the NATO commission in Washington, D.C.— told me recently that Colonel Barkhorn is—was the most reliable. When he told you that he had shot down an aircraft at a certain specific point, the next day they could take a Fieseler Storch or some such aircraft, go to this point on the map, and there was an airplane. This is a great reputation to have, in my estimation.

EAV: Well, Ray, I feel this way, that during my brief association with this group, that I have never met a more dignified and reliable group. Again, as we mentioned earlier today, the American fighter pilot, mission-wise, I have found no one, based on your documentary, that has ever exceeded 400, possibly one, in two wars. So reliability certain belongs with the German officers that we have here today. And I’m glad you brought that up. Ray, while we are discussing reliability, Colonel Barkhorn has just arrived, and I’d like to take this opportunity, before we go into other aspects of our association’s gathering, to briefly describe the second greatest ace of all times. Would you, please?

RFT: I am extremely honored tonight to introduce Colonel Barkhorn, the second-ranking ace of the world, with 301 aerial kills, also of JG-52, JG-44, which was the organization which Galland [] formed of jet pilots in the elite when he was given a free-hand against the flyers of the remainder of the world.

00:10:40 7

EAV: Erich, in regard to the association, you said one thing beautifully well, that I know of no one that has exemplified the feelings that you have said, as you did so well today, mentioning the equipment versus intelligent techniques. Would you please repeat that?

[production talk 00:11:26]

EH: Well, Gene, [unintelligible 00:11:42], maybe I can answer you, but I’m really happy that we are, this night, all together now, and we have a really good friendship or comradeship. I find out that the old German saying is true, that really friendship by heart, you can only get if you have first a big fight. We fight each other, but now we are good friends. And I hope that this friendship nobody can more…cut off? I don’t know an English [laughter/unintelligible 00:12:16].

00:12:17

EAV: Erich, to me, that’s one of the nicest things that has ever been said about any conflict or fight. And as I have assured you this afternoon, this is one of my greatest privileges, meeting you and gentlemen like you. Colonel Barkhorn, do you have any feelings in regard to the association, our rather impromptu meeting with gentlemen—or Knights of the Air, as you are and you represent, especially to the people of our country who have always looked up to you?

GB: I found this day that we are the same people, I have to say. And now, after this fight some years ago, we sit in the same boat. And we can’t go out and we will not go out. And so I hope we will have our friendship for all time.

EAV: We thank you very much, Colonel. And from the association of the people of our country, again, I am proud to be here. Colonel Ray Toliver from NORAD, will you take over this phase, please, with our discussions? Colonel Barkhorn, the aspects of his guidance towards becoming one of the greatest fighter pilots in our decade.

RFT: We have here Colonel Erich Hartmann and Colonel Gerhard Barkhorn, number one and number two ace of the world—aces of the world at this time. And, gentlemen, tonight I want to tell you a little bit about my background—not really my background because it’s not important. But in 1932, I wanted to be a pilot. I was only, oh, 18? Eighteen years old, and naturally, I could not become an officer in either the or the United States Navy at that time because I was too young. But it has been—it was my desire from 1932 to 1937 to join one of the services and to be a service pilot. This was the greatest thing in the world to me. I really can’t explain why. Perhaps you can explain why. Now, I know that Erich came into the service in 1942. He is a very young boy. They call him “Bubi” or “Buddy.”

EAV: Respectfully, you might add.

RFT: Yeah. Respectfully. Right. 8

00:15:01

RFT: But, Erich, I understand—I mean Gerhard Barkhorn, I understand that you have been raised in the service and desired to be a professional pilot or professional Air Force man in the German Luftwaffe at the very outset of your career in the military—or in the flying. Is this true?

GB: This is real true. Like you in ‘32, I like to become a flyer. But at this time, we had no Air Force in Germany. And when the Air Force started, I decided I will become a pilot in the Air Force. And so I joined the Air Force in 1937. So I became a flyer and a pilot in the Air Force.

RFT: This is exactly the same time that I became a pilot, because in 1937 I received my appointment as a flying cadet at the flying school at Randolph in Kelly Field, Texas, and I got my commission—I received my commission in October of 1938, the class of 38C in the flying school. It is very interesting to hear you say this because not too many years ago, I talked to one Heinz Bär, Lieutenant Colonel Heinz Bär, who also was one of your more famous pilots, because he, too, came up through the same tracks. Is this true, Gerhard?

00:16:42

GB: That is true.

RFT: I think you flew with Bär, particularly during JG-44. Was he your instructor? Who was your instructor when you went to the Me 262s?

[Remarks from Major Neumann]

GB: My instructor in Me 262 was Captain—no. At this time, Lieutenant Neumann. He is now here sitting beneath us. This is now Major Neumann. He’s a squadron commander in my fighter-bomber wing.

RFT: Major Newman, wouldn’t you—

GB: Neumann.

RFT: Neumann, yes. I must learn how to sharpen up my German. Would you take this opportunity—

MAJOR NEUMANN: Okay. I’d like to say that in this time, in this—

[production talk]

[recordings stops and starts again 00:17:27] 9

EAV: Commander Neumann—or Major Neumann, would you be so kind as to, well, reminisce a bit about some of the instructor chores and enjoyments you had during those days that Colonel Barkhorn has just mentioned?

MAJOR NEUMANN: Okay. I remember quite well. It was in the earlier time, ‘45, when this time our ex—or our—General Galland was forced out as chief of the German fighter pilots and he got permission—special permission by Göring to build up a special fighter group, including the liberty to pick out the pilots he want to have. At this time, we started this small unit—a small group of pilots. First place, of course, General Galland. Second place, this time, Colonel Steinhoff. And a couple of younger pilots. Later on, we received group of newcomers—or I guess I should say, former Wing Commanders or at least Group Commanders.

And that in this group, my excellent , at this time, Major Barkhorn. And he was transferred to this special fighter group, leaded [sic] by General Galland. Practically nothing more than a big fighter squadron. And he never flew before in jet aircraft. And before he took off for his first combat mission, he only got twice the occasion to fly this bird for becoming familiar. So I remember quite good enough—it was his [unintelligible 00:20:21] intention to bring up this bird, this twin-engine bird in the air. He had more trouble on the bird, and he had to abort the mission.

[production talk]

00:20:49

RFT: What did you want to say here? He did destroy an enemy airplane, though, on the third mission. Or was this the one [unintelligible 00:21:01]?

MN: No. Practically what I would have liked to point out, that the colonel had to fly this bird, brand new and completely new to us, practically without any training.

EAV: No familiarization at all.

MN: No familiarization at all.

[faint background conversation]

EAV: There is a throttle, and there is a stick. [laughter] Yes, sir.

MN: [unintelligible 00:21:33]—the way tell it?

EAV: Yes, sir. And then what happened?

MN: We do not bring in the—I don’t see the effect of the—

EAV: Conversation? 10

MN: Conversation.

EAV: Well, the effect of the conversation is that, while many great pilots are born, many great ones, it takes an instructor—or it takes someone to lay out the ground rules or help establishing—or with the establishment of the mold. This is very important. There are very few great pilots who have ever exceeded or excelled without a contribution by their instructors. And I think this is well worth the conversation.

RFT: I will add here that your student went on to become the top jet ace of World War II. He shot down 16 aircraft while flying the Me 262, and no one has shot down more than 16.

GB: I shot nothing down with the 262.

RFT: Well, who shot down 16? Krupinski [Walter Krupinski]?

[overlapping voices/unintelligible 00:22:54]

GB: I had no success. I only crashed. [laughter]

EAV: I’m talking about instruction. Erich mentioned something today that I know the instructors in the States are still having an awful lot of trouble instilling the need for teamwork.

[production talk]

00:23:32

[Conversations about teamwork and unmanned weapon systems]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: When the former Luftwaffe received this first jet aircraft, we didn’t know about fuel consumption. We didn’t know about procedure. We, more or less, we—or, let’s say, we stepped in, we started the engine, moved the throttle, and we tried to go.

EAV: Yes, but you were the pioneers. You were the first. So a pioneer has to—

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: But now [unintelligible 00:23:58]. [laughter]

EAV: Erich, again, getting back to you, sir, you mentioned today something very dear to my heart.

EH: Teamwork.

EAV: The teamwork aspect. And you mentioned that fact that you never lost a wingman assigned. I think that is certainly a contribution, and one that, again, all instructors have certainly been emphasizing and trying to impress in the new fledglings. Do you have anything on that, sir? 11

EH: I’m still [unintelligible 00:24:31] answer on this question, but I have this as my personal meaning, that teamwork is the number one if you are a really good fighter pilot. Because one man in the air is most time lost. And I am really proud that in all of my combats I never lost a wingman. And during this time, the same as—that thing Colonel Barkhorn and the other fighter aces, that is much more important to save the young man who is a kid in the air the first time and we will have that possibility for the other life. I don’t know what I can express now. And today, we learn all our technique and our science and our meeting to get the feel of a good engine or a good weapon system, without a man. And I like to point out as most—much more important for the future, for every kind of technical instrument, that the instrument will never be a good instrument if not a man is behind with a good heart.

EAV: Well, Erich, coming from you, I’m sure this will mean a considerable effort to the people that are trying to instill this again, [unintelligible 00:25:58]. Colonel, do you have anything to say on the teamwork aspect? Any teamwork necessary?

[faint conversation]

EAV: Well, the point that we’re, uh…

GB: I just can only point out the same.

EAV: In jets, now that you’re one of the foremost leaders in the new German Air Force, do you still require this form of teamwork, or do you stress the individual aspect or—

00:26:53

GB: I fully agree with Colonel Hartmann. A pilot alone never can have success. He, every time, needs a second man as though we did in the whole wartime.

EAV: Thank you very much, Colonel. Do we have anything else that we can just put for a bull session [unintelligible 00:27:18]? As I mentioned, I was quite fortunate, before reporting—and my arms are not long enough. I can’t read a book anymore. I’m getting into the glasses stage. But I did lead a fighter-interceptor squadron, the only fighter squadron in the Navy assigned to the Air Defense Command. I feel very fortunate in that we did win two awards for the first time in history. Of course, being a Navy squadron, we were under the gun and we had to prove ourselves, not only to the Navy, but the Air Force. Is there anything that you might like to add as to where we all might be going?

One thing I’d like to bring up, what might be the opinion of the—of you gentlemen, in regards to the manned fighter today, tomorrow, for the next five years? My particular boss—or my boss, General Kuter [Laurence S. Kuter], has been assigned the task of justifying the 108 type, which is a Mach-3 bomber. We have been particularly plagued with a possible potential threat in the 12

Russian capability, or a potential enemy’s capability, to stand off some 400 to 600 miles and initiate a thermonuclear attack through the Hound Dog-type missile.

00:28:42

EAV: We are quite thankful that all of our targets cannot be reached from the sea and hence, it would form an alarm. But we do not have in our stable of interceptors today, and this is before Congress, an interceptor capable of neutralizing the manned bomber who has—or which has been sophisticated through a standoff type of an attack. General Kuter feels that we do need the manned bomber, and it will be necessary for some time to come, because of the possible dormant phase of the ICBM, one; and two, because of a possible brush fire aspect. Do you have any views on that, gentlemen? Major?

GB: I believe as long as the potential enemy has manned bombers, as long we have to have fighters, and every country have to build fighter units.

GB: Thank you, sir. Erich, do you have any…?

EH: I agree fully with Colonel Barkhorn. And I will say—I will point out at this point, Gene, that my personal opinion is, that you can read in the whole world history, that never start a new war on the point where the last has end. I think that’s a very important point for all our planners. And I don’t like to say the headquarters because I am only a small man. However, we are all small men. We are only thinking and come from the technical side—

EAV: You’re a great man, Erich. A great man.

EH: …and therefore, I can only warn—give the warning. Every time you will find in the whole history, that the war—the new war will start there where the last war has end. And you have much more experience—[unintelligible 00:30:45]—the Korean War. [laughter]

EAV: I beg to differ with you, sir. Major Nuemann, we’d certainly appreciate any comments you have. Again, this is for the Fighter Aces of America only, and any discussion that we have here is for the intelligence and the stimulated thought that we might bring back from you gentlemen, who we look up to so much.

MN: I really—I do not have other comments. I will say quite the same as before, Colonel Barkhorn and Colonel Hartmann said.

EAV: Thank you very much, sir. Gentlemen, again, for the Fighter Aces of America and for our youth of America, we thank you.

00:31:35

[END OF INTERVIEW]