The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Flight Seattle, Washington American and German Fighter Pilots Recording Date: May 1961 2 Abstract: This recording contains conversations between German and American fighter pilots regarding their military service during World War II. The conversations took place during a goodwill meeting between the American Fighter Aces Association and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association that was held in Germany in May 1961. Excerpts from this recording were later used in a highlight reel about the event. Identified speakers include Werner Andres, President of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association; Eugene A. Valencia, Vice President of the American Fighter Aces Association; German Air Force officers Gerhard Barkhorn, Erich Hartmann, and Major Neumann; and American Air Force officer Raymond F. Toliver. Background: In May 1961, members of the American Fighter Aces Association visited West Germany as part of a goodwill meeting between them and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association. During their week-long visit, they toured German air bases and attended various events, including a war memorial dedication in Geisenheim, Germany. Several moments from the meeting were recorded, such as goodwill gestures and conversations between American and German fighter aces. Restrictions: Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives. Transcript: Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3 Index: Werner Andres accepting the return of Werner Mölders’s award .................................................. 4 Conversation between Raymond F. Toliver, Eugene A. Valencia, Gerhard Barkhorn, and Erich Hartmann......................................................................................................................................... 5 Remarks from Major Neumann ...................................................................................................... 8 Conversations about teamwork and unmanned weapon systems ................................................. 10 4 American and German Fighter pilots [START OF INTERVIEW] 00:00:00 [Werner Andres accepting the return of Werner Mölders’s award] WERNER ANDRES: [speaking in German] TRANSLATOR: Gentlemen, Colonel Jenkins, I really thank you very much for your broad- minded presentation. I believe that the handover of this special document really is in the same meaning aspects of our present meeting and will further deepen and confirm our good relationships and contacts. We think that we fighter pilots have a good supposition for such relationship. We, of course, are not god-like, but we are only human beings with many weak and a few good characteristics. We all fighter pilots belong to the same type of people and have always got along very good and had always an excellent understanding. We have already found out and noticed in these few hours that we have been together that you gentlemen from the American Fighters Aces Association, exactly like us, only pay attention to the really important things of life. We believe that this meeting and the get-together of our two associations is of quite some importance for the future. The political situation of the world forces our nations to unity. For the free world, it will be important that our unity and alliance not only is a matter of sense, but comes out of our hearts. We are sure that your visits, you gentlemen from the States, and your friendly hospitality [unintelligible 00:07:41] and the gentlemen of your base, already have served this purpose. I’ll, of course, hand this document over to Mrs. Mölders and, again, thank you very much for the presentation and handover of this document. Thank you. 00:03:03 EUGENE A. VALENCIA: This has certainly been an honor to be here on such a momentous occasion. Would you explain the significance of the decoration? TRANSLATOR: Yes. Well, this document was presented to Colonel Werner Mölders when he received this award to the Oak Leaf of the Knight’s Cross. While Mölders was the first fighter pilot with more than 100 victories— EAV: Let’s start over again. Go ahead. Start over again. Would you cut in again, please [unintelligible 00:03:28]? TRANSLATOR: Well, this document was presented to Colonel Werner Mölders when he received this award to the Oak Leaf of the Knight’s Cross. Mölders was the first fighter pilot with more than 100 victories. He was not only a good pilot, but he always has been symbolic to 5 us German fighter pilots here. And he was, for us, practically what Richthofen was in World War I. EAV: Thank you very much. [recording stops and starts again 00:04:02] [Conversation between Raymond F. Toliver, Eugene A. Valencia, Gerhard Barkhorn, and Erich Hartmann] EAV: Ladies and gentlemen, again, during one of our brief recesses in our star-studded “Ace of Aces” program, I would like to turn the microphone over to Colonel Ray Toliver, at which time we’ll introduce two of the greatest—and three of the greatest aces in the German Air Force. Colonel Toliver, as you know, is the world authority on the documentation and justification of worldwide aces. Colonel Toliver. 00:04:47 RAYMOND F. TOLIVER: Let’s talk a little bit about the decoration system that they had in Germany during World War II. We are honored tonight to have with us the number one ace of the world, the Richthofen of World War II, Erich Hartmann, Lieutenant Colonel Erich Hartmann, and Colonel Gerhard Barkhorn, the number two ace of the world, both pilots of JG 52—and Barkhorn with many other units, as well as Hartmann, I believe. [sound of microphone being adjusted] Erich, I see by the ribbons that you are wearing tonight that you flew over 1,400 combat missions. This is very easy to tell on the German decorations if you look very, very closely at the ribbons because on the lower left-hand corner—they wear an all dark blue or dark black ribbon with an eagle wing, which gives the number of missions, or at least the area of the number of missions they’ve flown. They had two systems here. They had a system called a start. A start was where they took off on a mission. Then they had what they called rhubarbs, which were missions that ended in a combat with an enemy. Both of these men were with a fighter wing on the Russian front called JG, or Jagdgeschwader, 52. That’s not very good German, is it, gentlemen? GERHARD BARKHORN: I would say “Jagdgeschwader,” [speaking German]. RFT: Thank you, Colonel Barkhorn. I believe that Hermann Graf was the commander at that time. Prior to that, a man by the name of Dieter Hrabak, a very famous fighter pilot also in the German Air Force, and now, as of lately, a commander of Fürstenfeldbruck of the training wings and now commander of all of the training wings in the south of Germany. [pause as airplane flies overhead] Erich, how many missions did you fly while you were on the Eastern Front? All of 6 your—almost all of yours were on the Eastern Front. How many did you fly while you were there? 00:07:27 ERICH HARTMANN: Oh, the exact number, I don’t know, but— RFT: Well over 1,600? EH: No, not so much. RFT: Well, his ribbon says that he flew over 1,400. So it’s obvious that in the three years that Erich, perhaps the youngest one of the aces, flew well over 1,400 missions—combat missions or rhubarbs. He is also the top ace of the world with 352 confirmed victories. Barkhorn, who flew—how many missions, sir? GB: 1,104. RFT: 1,104 missions, and he wears the ribbon showing 1,100-plus. General Steinhoff [Johannes Steinhoff], our friend in the United States who is on the military NATO commission—he is the German representative on the NATO commission in Washington, D.C.— told me recently that Colonel Barkhorn is—was the most reliable. When he told you that he had shot down an aircraft at a certain specific point, the next day they could take a Fieseler Storch or some such aircraft, go to this point on the map, and there was an airplane. This is a great reputation to have, in my estimation. EAV: Well, Ray, I feel this way, that during my brief association with this group, that I have never met a more dignified and reliable group. Again, as we mentioned earlier today, the American fighter pilot, mission-wise, I have found no one, based on your documentary, that has ever exceeded 400, possibly one, in two wars. So reliability certain belongs with the German officers that we have here today. And I’m glad you brought that up. Ray, while we are discussing reliability, Colonel Barkhorn has just arrived, and I’d like to take this opportunity, before we go into other aspects of our association’s gathering, to briefly describe the second greatest ace of all times. Would you, please? RFT: I am extremely honored tonight to introduce Colonel Barkhorn, the second-ranking ace of the world, with 301 aerial kills, also of JG-52, JG-44, which was the organization which Galland [Adolf Galland] formed of jet pilots in the elite when he was given a free-hand against the flyers of the remainder of the world. 00:10:40 7 EAV: Erich, in regard to the association, you said one thing beautifully well, that I know of no one that has exemplified the feelings that you have said, as you did so well today, mentioning the equipment versus intelligent techniques. Would you please repeat that? [production talk 00:11:26] EH: Well, Gene, [unintelligible 00:11:42], maybe I can answer you, but I’m really happy that we are, this night, all together now, and we have a really good friendship or comradeship.