Siyyum – Will We Survive? (Part 2) — a Lecture by Rabbi Ed Feinstein and Rabbi Harold M. Schulweis

Siyyum – Will We Survive? (Part 2) — A Lecture by Rabbi Ed Feinstein and Rabbi Harold M. Schulweis

The VBS College of Jewish Studies Lecture Series Temple Valley Beth Shalom Encino, CA February 28, 2007

(This is a transcription of an audio recording which can be found at www.schulweisinstitute.com)

Rabbi Feinstein: Tonight is our closing Siyyum. For the past 18 weeks, we have discussed those moments in Jewish history when circumstances came that asked the Jewish people to reconsider, to reinvent their institutions, to reorganize their communities, to reinterpret the mission and project of the Jewish people in the world, to reinterpret their faith, to renegotiate the covenant with God, and to renegotiate their relationship with the past.

We began with the biblical period, with Daniel Hartman remember? And we talked about how it was that in the biblical period, the bible already was a revolution in its Middle Eastern Emeliu. The bible offered a completely new way to think about God and to think about the community that would follow God.

And then we talked about the prophets together. We talked about it with Marvin Sweeney, how the prophets took the biblical message and radicalized it. Radicalized it so that the prophets where people who spoken the name of the poor and the downtrodden, how the prophets had this radical sense of the evil of the community and the necessity to make the community Utopia.

And then we turned our attention some generations forward to the Rabbinic period with the destruction of the temple in 70, the necessity of a Jewish community to completely reinvent itself. And with Professor Weisberg and Dr. Graff, we considered how it was that the Jewish community accomplished that, how it was that the Jewish community through the teachings of the town would reorganize and understood anew what it means to be a Jew and what it means to walk the world with God.

And then our closing session of the first semester, we considered the two contributions of medieval Judaism. On the one end, the revolution that came with Maimonides in the philosophical tradition, completely changing the way Jews organize their understanding and express their understanding of faith, the kind of questions they would ask about

Temple Valley Beth Shalom © 2013 Page 1 faith. And at the same time, the invention of the Kabbalah, the invention of the Jewish mystical tradition. And the great mythical tradition, a great wonderful wealth of mythical narrative and mythical imagery that came to the Jewish people through the Kabbalah.

And then on our second semester, we began with Rabbi Schulweis on a conversation about Spinoza and how Benedict Spinoza or Baruch Spinoza sets the challenge for modernity, how you can understand yourself as a Jew in the world and fully accept yourself as a citizen and as a thinking person, as an autonomous moral being, and how that offers a challenge. And the challenge of modernity, we have several attempts to answer the challenge of modernity.

Rabbi Yoffie talked to us about how reformed Judaism answers the challenge of modernity and Rabbi Weiss talked about how orthodox -- it was Rabbi Kanefsky -- about how orthodox, he answers a challenge of modernity. And Professor Dorff talked about how conservative Judaism, and Rabbi Rachlis, how reconstructionist Judaism tries to answer these challenges of modernity and recreate a Judaism that has a message that's compelling for this time and this place.

And then last week, Professor Myers, Jody Myers, talked to us about how Zionism understood the question of modernity upside down. And it wasn't a question of faith or of message, it was a question of place and of power. And then only in an environment where Jews take power and own a place can a conversation can even take place. And now, Zionism itself was a rejection of all that came before and a complete reinterpretation of the project of the Jewish people.

And tonight, we've looked at two different things. We've looked at the contemporary condition of Judaism, a Judaism that has been walloped by these events of history, and Jews -- Jews that live within this sort of a linksys, this contradiction, between the demand for sovereignty and a deep desire for meaning. And the question is, can these two come together and create a Judaism of the 21st century? And the very best person in the world to ask that question to is our own Rabbi Herald Schulweis. So we're delighted to welcome Rabbi Schulweis back.

So let me begin with a simple question. I think I asked you this…

Rabbi Schulweis: Let me begin.

Rabbi Feinstein: Okay, you – never mind.

Rabbi Schulweis: To conceptual this entire program, to implement it, to be able to get these people these unusual lectures is the work of Rabbi Feinstein, and he deserves a tremendous approach. And your questions, sir?

Rabbi Feinstein: Do we left off? We left off a moment ago just at the end of the study period at this particular point. On the one hand, the birth of what you once called the psychological Jew, the Jew who is afraid of commitment, the Jew who is reticent to join, the Jew who protects his boundaries, and a Jew at the same time who has a deep desire for meaning, for connection, for a narrative that make sense of his life.

And then on the other side, we have Judaism. And the Judaism that has, I said, been walloped. And in one generation, you have an experience of holocaust and the rebirth of the state of Israel, and the freedom of its diaspora. And it's Judaism that, it seems to me, doesn’t have a message right now, multiple messages, but none of them deeply compelling to speak to that searching Jew, that Jew who is looking, that Jew who wants something.

And somebody asked a very interesting question a moment ago. I think over here. The question was, "What do we do? What's the first step?" And I fastidiously said, "Well, you know, make a large contribution to Valley Beth Shalom" because you've taught me very well.

So let’s begin with that. Let's talk about the synagogue. The synagogue that you created was a substantially different than the synagogue of your grandfather and the synagogue going into the future. How do you see the future of the synagogue? Does it have a future? Is it an institution that's been lost by history? Do we need a different kind of institution? Is there something within the structure of synagogue which has value into this next generation?

Rabbi Schulweis: Well, that's a good question.

Rabbi Feinstein: I thought so. I know it's nothing you've thought about.

Rabbi Schulweis: We're not the same. You'll never be the same. We are pluralists. And I can tell, listening to many of these lectures, that I am made of many parts. I nod my head when I read Martin Buber. I nod my head when I read Kaplan and I nod when I read Heschel. I'm everything. And I think that's how it's going to be. And I don’t think so terrible.

And when you hear a question like "What's the message?" be weary. There is no message that's simple, that's single, that's singular, that's going to approach all of us. I don't mind to tell you who I am. I am a secular religious orthodox conservative,

Temple Valley Beth Shalom © 2013 Page 3 reconstructionist, reformed Jew. And what is wrong with that? I'm perfectly comfortable with Eric Yoffie. I'm comfortable with Avi Weis. I'm wonderfully comfortable with. That's how it is. Isn't that great? That's the point that I think modernity to me represents. You're not going to have a single idea -- am I not a Zionist? Of course, I'm a Zionist.

One of the things that I learned from a man called -- that you read, Arthur Lovejoy, remarkable philosopher of ideas, in the great chain of being, he says "Be weary of suffixes that end with ism or ity -- Judaism, secularism, Christianity -- because it sounds as if they're all one package, but if you get a little bit deeper into anything, you'll find what kind of. It's not a question "Do you believe in God?" What kind of God do you believe in? Is not a question, "Do you believe in conservativism?" What kind of conservativism? We belong to the same union, Ed and I. There are all kinds of people -- left, right, center, confused. This is not -- but this good. And this is what we have to live with. You have to live then as a Jew with a certain amount of ambivalence and ambiguity. And that's one of the most sophisticated things to do in life.

And I dislike very much -- and just like is that the right word I want to use-- I'm uncomfortable with a thinking which penetrates all of our thoughts. We're getting now the Judaism issue, political thinking, ethical thinking, which is either or, either this or that? And I watch the popular punditry. I watch these things like Hannity and Colmes, or whatever else you're having, but it's fascinating. I would like, one of these days, to hear two guys -- one a republican, one a democratic; one a left winger, one a right winger, and I’d like to hear one guy say like "You know, you may be right. You really may be right." And I think that this is civilized. What do you mean democrat? I'm a democrat? What kind of a democrat? What kind of democrat are you? What kind of republican are you, a McCain republican? Are you a -- I think a Brownback?

Rabbi Feinstein: Brownback.

Rabbi Schulweis: Republican? Very different. So, number one what I would say is appreciate the pluralism of Judaism. And I don't think that this is new. There is a great bracha in the Talmud brachot which just says what is the blessing that you recite when you see a whole Ochleseh Yisael a crowd of Jewish people. And it say, “Baruch Chacham Achazin Sh’en D’atan Doneh Z’lozeh V’en Taltzufeihem Domim Z’lozeh . Look at this people. They are not two of you who have the same mind and not two of you who have the same faces. Isn't that wonderful? Isn't that great?

So I was born a pluralist. My father was a Yiddishist as you know, Zionist, socialist, antireligious, suspect of rabbis, suspect of congregations, suspect of their institutions and Zayda was an orthodox Talmudist suspect of my father, quite convinced that I was

More than that, like you, I also study. And like Hartman and other people, I also study in the secular world and I loved NYU, and I loved the professors. And I love Columbia. And I love the -- this is wonderful. How could you do this because this what life is really life -- like. This is what God is when you talk about God as Yichud. One. And that one has to include everything,.

So this week, how many saw the Yiddish performance at the University of Judaism on 2nd Avenue? Amazing. I went with a cousin because I wanted someone to translate the Yiddish for me. And he did. What I found was remarkable. I don't think you were there, Eddie.

Rabbi Feinstein: No.

Rabbi Schulweis: But they had 500 people, one evening. They had four or five times filled with 500 people and something was remarkable. People sang Yiddish songs. The secular song, lullabies. They told jokes, humorous things, romantic stones, yearnings about bells and slusk and what not. It was a religious experience, but these were all Yiddishists. I know these people well. My father could have been in that audience, unquestionably. So what do we sing again? We sing "This is the Joy of Being Jewish." And God forbid that we should become so denomination, so narrow and so cultic that we say there's only way to God, one way to Judaism, one way to Halacha. In Halacha depends on what you mean. So anyhow, I don't think it's an answer.

Rabbi Feinstein: No, you’re doing fine.

Rabbi Schulweis: But it's a hell of a -- [overlapping conversation]

Rabbi Feinstein: It's fine.

Rabbi Schulweis: Right.

Rabbi Feinstein: Let's go back and take a few pieces of this one by one, okay?

Rabbi Schulweis: Yeah.

Rabbi Feinstein: The most powerful event of the 20th century for the Jewish people is the Shoah, the holocaust. And I made the claim earlier that we still haven't digested it, that we decided to set it aside as any victim of trauma does and get on with the work of

It seems to me that what’s going to happen --something quite remarkable is going to happen in the next 20 years. In the next 20 years, the last eye witness will die and then the holocaust is going to re-relegate it to history. And when it becomes history and they're on eye witnesses here, then we're going to have to make a very difficult decision about what story do we tell, how do we tell the story, how do we tell our children the story. Seems to me the pesach seder is an interesting model. The Rabbis chose a very peculiar way to tell the story of Egyptian slavery. It basically ignored slavery and talk about redemption. But the question is, what story should we tell and how should we tell the story and how do we even ask that question?

Rabbi Schulweis: It's a wonderful question. Holocaust can do a lot of things to you. It can make you angry and embittered, cynical and pessimistic, and conclude from that. If the world has treated us so badly, to hell with the world. It is easy to say as if Asi Cohen said in a very celebrated article, "The world hated Jews, the world hates Jews, and the world will always hate Jews." And she got a lot of applause because there's part of it that's sort of true. I mean, you know this. We all know this, but -- where can you go without seeing Jewish service? Whether it's Spain or whether it's Portugal, or whether it's England, or at France, it's all over. That's one way of saying it.

In fact, I will tell you just a personal matter. When we were involved in the founding of the Jewish Foundation for the Righteous for Rescuers. This was a group, an organization which is still in existence, which raises about over a million and a half at one dinner, and has this money sent as stipends to some 1400 Christian rescuers who risked their lives.

When I first thought about this back in the '60s, in Oakland, Jews said to me "How can you do this? What do you mean you're going to be celebrating goyim? What do you mean? Don't you understand that you're making delight of the holocaust. You're talking about Christian heroes." And I said "That's exactly what I'm talking about, Christian heroes."

And when I talked to the churches I said the same thing. I said "As a church, you people don't know what to respect. Why don't you honor Alex Roslin? Why don’t you honor the diplomats? Why don’t you honor Sempo Sugihara, etc, etc?" Their argument was, in another words to hell with the world. All I can tell you is Judaism cannot survive that way. Impossible. Because all it can do is to make you into a miserable misanthrope, an angry, sad, brooding cynical individual, and that's not the way to do it. I think the way to do it is to tell the truth.

And the truth is that man has a remarkable capacity to destroy his fellow human being. Homo homoni lupus. Man is to man, like a wolf. That's clear. Freud said it, Santayana said it, many people said it, and that's true. But Jews have never allowed themselves to be caught up in that cynicism. Never. We have more reason than any other religion to believe in original sin that the individual is avaricious, that he is mean, that the mendacity surrounds him, all that stuff. We never get said that, because we started with the proposition which is the major proposition in Jewish life, in Jewish thought, that the individual is potentiality salvageable, that within every individual is the capacity to do good and to love.

And when people say to me "Prove it." Give me some empirical fact. I point out to you. I wish you get hold of this book. It just came out, published in KTAV. It's called Diplomats and Heroism and it deals with people that you have not heard of. I didn’t know of half of them, Aristides de Sousa Mendes, Portuguese counsel in Bordeaux, who, by falsifying visas, saved thousands upon thousands of Jews. Who knows about Aristides de Sousa Mendes? That's our business. Our business is hakarat hatov, to recognize the goodness and the potential. Otherwise, we are doomed to become like Schopenhauer, deeply pessimistic, sorrowful people. I can't afford it.

One of you asked me that question. I told to be asked -- I'm very disillusioned at the world. I'm very pessimistic. And I told them that's a luxury we can't afford. How can you do that? You mean to tell me you believe that inevitably? There's going to be anti- Semitism? I know there's anti-Semitism. Don’t prove to me. But I can tell you one thing, that unless you believe that there is a possibility, a good possibility that there can be peace in the Middle East, and I'm convinced of it. There would be peace in the Middle East unless you work for that, unless you do something about it, u will be caught in something desperate.

One last thing, Eddie. And that is, when we started the Darfur project, I got the same kind of letters. What in the world are you doing with black Muslim people in the Sudan? And one of the individuals asked me a very pointed question, "Tell me Rabbi, can you get a minion in Sudan? How many Jews are there in Darfur?" And I said to them, "None." One Sudanist man told me, "There are no Jews in Sudan, no Jews in Darfur, and you are doing this for my people?" He cried. And I cried and I want my kids to know this.

I want my children -- talking about message, I want my children to know that unlike the church that was silent throughout the holocaust period, despite the fact that the Pope did what he did which was nothing, despite the fact that even in the Yom Kippur War, we couldn't get a Christian community to crowd about this. Despite that, I am not going to surrender to that kind of emptiness and I want to be proud. I can tell you one thing, that your children and my children, and your children's children will someday ask "And

Temple Valley Beth Shalom © 2013 Page 7 what did the synagogue do during the genocide of Darfur?" And you will say, "We, Jews, were at the forefront of the defense of those innocent people. That's important to me. That's what makes me want to be Jewish. If not, I'm just like anybody else. I'm not. We're unique. We're singular. We'll be proud of it. We're good people and we act as good people. And I think this is a message.

But in order to do that, you got to do it. You got to do it. And I will tell you -- I said finally twice, right? This is the third "finally" -- is I want to know, how about your kids? I want you to know that we raised so much money through the efforts of kids, teenagers, whom we normally dismiss as materialistic, spoiled children, but we raised more money through kids, through the selling of t-shirts and the selling of this little wrist bands, through washing of cars.

And I will never forget the moment that I and some of the kids, and Janice Reznik went to Notre Dame. And Notre Dame is not a Jewish school, it's not a Yeshiva. It's a catholic school. And we talked about it. And we raised $5200 from Notre Dame. And then we went to Crespi, which is a catholic school, and we raised $5000. And we went to St. Bernard's, also not a Jewish school, catholic school. And the kids were proud. And I was proud.

This is why I'm a Jew, because I think a Jew really takes to Tikkun Olam seriously. And if we don't do it, if you remain insulated, whatever the reasons are, if you become so concentrated only on ritual matters and nothing else, I think you will not be able to speak to your children with joy.

Rabbi Feinstein: Thank you. [Applause] I could let you get a drink here. We spoke earlier. We said that the holocaust was one of the two events of the 20th century that demands that we reinterpret who we are. The other event is the rebirth of the state of Israel. And I know that you have seven grandchildren who live in Israel and your son is there. I visited him and he is very happy. So, what do we make of that? What's the meaning of that? There was a time when the state of Israel -- and I suppose for many in this room it still does -- that Hatikvah stirs us, the flag of Israel stirs us, that a visit to the land of Israel moves us, but for a younger generation, the younger generation associates Israel only with war and Palestinians, and oppression, and occupation, and these kinds of issues. What does the state of Israel do to our Judaism?

Rabbi Schulweis: Start with us. Who built this native Israel? Who founded it? Who are the heroes? Shekhinah Jews, unbelieving Jews. And there was a split between the orthodox world which said "You cannot do that. You have no right to use your human efforts, your energies, to conquer the land. You got to wait and wait until the Messiah comes." They did not build Israel. Shekhinah Jews did. Then Gurion was

Again, Judaism now is getting broader and they’re saying "Wait a minute" I understand that religious passion, but it's not enough. We can do something. And one of the things we can do is to build a land. So we built a land. And now, we are in history. And that scares the hell out of us because it's great to live in idealistic world at which the rabbi can preach about world peace or whatever the case maybe, but now, you've got to leave with the needy-greedy, with the test of how do you deal with Arabs? How do you deal with terrorists? How do you deal with Iraq and Iran? That's history.

You don’t want it? A lot of Jews did not want it. I'll tell you who didn't want it. One of the great philosophers of the 20th century, Hermann Cohen said "That's not for us because Zionist will dirty us." Franz Rosenzweig said the same thing. We are spectators of history. We have to remain above history and Zionism said "Get into history." And I want you, young people, who ask that question, to go to Israel and see it. We're struggling.

And what's more, we are not a perfect people. For God's sakes, get it out of your head. Anytime you talk about a perfect book or a perfect person, or perfect people, you're going to be deeply disillusioned. We're not perfect, but we are corrigible. We can improve and we have. Let them understand these things.

This is a struggle, but that's what it means to be Jewish. It doesn’t mean to be perfect. You remember that wonderful, one of my favorite midrash is when the angels hear that God is going to give the Torah to Moses and they say "Why are you giving it to a fellow of a dumb, flesh and blood, ordinary, finite, fallible, imperfect people. You should give it to us. Give it to the angels" And God was a great teacher. He's not on the seminar here that you hid Him.

Rabbi Feinstein: I tried, but he asked more money than I could afford. So…

Rabbi Schulweis: You could have given him Aliyah or something.

Rabbi Feinstein: Maybe next year.

Rabbi Schulweis: Give him after Yonah. So, God says to Moses, "Go argue with the angels." And Moses says to the angels, "Let me ask you something. You have a desire for an adulterous relationship?" And they were "Are you kidding? We're angels?" "Do you have a desire to steal or to lie?" "No. Never." That shows you. The bible was meant for human beings. This is important to teach our kids as well. You're not going to find perfection. We don't have saints in Jewish life, not even

Feinstein is a saint. Come pretty close, but not quite, doesn't make it. Why don't we have saints? Because we understand a deep truth. It's a part of the thing we preach about and teach every child this morning, you and I, and Rabbi Hoffman. We teach the remarkable power or a people to put into the bible all of the flaws and blemishes and scars of its heroes. What a remarkable thing. Is there anybody, women or male, anybody in the bible who is not flawed?

Read the new testament, you'll see a different book. Read the Koran, you'll see a different book. And this is important to teach the kids. It's not a question only of Zionism. It’s a question of how do you look at -- you don't like -- I just had a class or a close confirmation. And I asked among other things, what ought Judaism to be? What ought a rabbi could be? What does synagogue have to be?

And then you begin talking about the flaws in Jewish life. Okay, what did you find? I found an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That's true. I found, in fact last shabbos, a man in the congregation who is not a paid-up member. Nevertheless, I asked the question of me . You talk about the fact that the Hebrew slave is to work with you for six years and the 7th year, he is to go free. Is that nice? Does that refer -- how about the non-Jew? How about the pagan? And some of you were there. I said to them, "Look , you’re not the first one to be unhappy with this verse." The rabbis were unhappy. That's why you have this course, because of your genius idea, because if you stop with the first lecture -- what was the first lecture on?

Rabbi Feinstein: The bible.

Rabbi Schulweis: The bible. You stopped with that first lecture, you don't know what's going in Jewish life. In that sense, I must say Kaplan was a genius in understanding. Please understand that everything in this world, evolves. Nothing comes crashing down. Some sort of an object, that's it. It’s evolving. So I told him "Of course, the rabbis were very, very unhappy with that." And I told them what it meant to have a slave in general, how they got around it. And you know what the slave must do? Slave must have the same kind of food that you have, master. And the same kind of drink that you have and sleep on the same kind of a bed that you have. And he cannot carry your towel, your wash, to the bath house. And you can't ask him to tie your shoes. So the rabbi say, what did the people say to that? If that's the case, who needs the slave? Aha, exactly. But the impulse here is emancipation. Now, I don't remember how I got into this frankly, and I'd appreciate it very much if you got me out of this.

Rabbi Feinstein: Okay. No, you can stop there. Take a drink.

Rabbi Schulweis: Take a deep breath.

Rabbi Feinstein: Take a drink. You told me once that -- I guess it was about 25 years ago, when Gerson Cohen retired that the seminary called you, the ATS called you, and asked you if you would interview for the job of chancellor of the Jewish Theological seminary. And you told me you didn’t want to go, but Malka [phonetic] told you, you had to go, right? So you went and gave him a brilliant interview, and then turned down the job.

Rabbi Schulweis: That's right. I wasn’t' offered the job. It was sort of a…

Rabbi Feinstein: You would've been.

Rabbi Schulweis: I would've been if they were right.

Rabbi Feinstein: And I know that over the years, you've been offered a number of opportunities to enter academia and other kinds of positions and yet, you're committed to the synagogue. Synagogue is -- obviously it's a deeply important part of your life. Why the synagogue?

Rabbi Schulweis: I'll tell you a really true and somewhat humorous story. The chancellor of the seminary was Louis Finkelstein. You may know him. There was a job opening at the Park Avenue synagogue which is considered to be the cathedral of Jewish life.

Rabbi Feinstein: Yeah. I taught Hebrew school in the basement of that cathedral for years. So I know that synagogue well.

Rabbi Schulweis: So, Dr. Finkelstein called up my home whether I would go in there for a prabah, but I was not there, but Malka was there. And he said --because he is such a modest man -- "Hello, this is Finkelstein." And she said, thinking maybe Finkelstein the butcher, maybe the tailor, or anyhow. I went to that place. And you know, the way you get a job is when you don't want it. It is wonderful. What a feeling. Because they asked me all kinds of those questions and so forth, you know. They asked me and if you don't want it you get the job.

Synagogue to me is only as good as the imagination of the rabbis and the congregation. I asked my young people upstairs, I tried to get them to consider being a rabbi. And we went into this whole question that I did. My favorite way of thinking is to say "Tell me, what would a synagogue to be." Nobody ever asked me that question. They tell me what a synagogue is. To meet as the board of directors. You got to do this and this. That's not the question. The question is what ought a synagogue to be. The question is not, what is a Jew? We had talked that way. You talk about

And I think the remarkable thing about this congregation is wonderful responsiveness to you and to me. A responsiveness because we think we all believed that you have to have “Coakh Adim Yon” the power of imagination. What should a synagogue be? You give that answer and then you'll find it. So, in order to give that answer, however, you have to open yourself up to creativity in the future. And you have to be able to say the past is not the whole thing. It is very important.

Brings me back to Kaplan who said -- I think in a way perhaps the most quotable part of Kaplan that the past has a vote, but no veto. I think that's wonderful. That's wonderful because you have to have respect for the present and for the future. You can do it. And you've done it. Let me ask you this question. Dear friend, this is your congregation. Imagine that you can do whatever you want without being bullied, without being threatened, no ritual committee, what would you do? What a synagogue to be like?

Rabbi Feinstein: Move to Hawaii. That's the -- the whole congregation on the island of Kauai [laughter]. We've talked about this, you and I. One of the things that you and I have talked about is the idea that in this century at this moment, and I think largely because of these events of the holocaust and of emancipation, and in advent of Israel, that prayer is a very difficult thing for Jews to engage in. But study is something that we find an easier connection.

For some strange reason and I think it's historical when we built synagogues, we built them on the model on American protestant churches. So the biggest room in the place is the room for prayer. Every synagogue is built around the sanctuary that's defined as a place for prayer. And if you want to hold a class like these, you have to go in the other room.

The question would be, what would happen if you built the synagogue and instead of putting the place for prayer, you put the place for learning right in the middle? What if the biggest geographic space and the most emphasized space is the place for Torah? It's a Beit Midrash which in some ways is actually more traditional in the way that we built these synagogues. Because it's in learning that we find each other. And learning is a lot less vulnerable in many ways. You can open yourself to an intellectual conversation. And then through that, open yourself to deeply spiritual parts of yourself. Then, prayer, which demands something that most Jews aren't ready to give right away. So that's one of the ways of thinking and we've done this in a large way.

Rabbi Schulweis: Let me just suggest this. Take a look at this group. Its' a wonderful group. You can't get this group on Shabbos. You won't get them on Friday night. But if you have this lecture series on Shabbos or Friday night, you'd get them. Why are you here? Why aren’t you here on the Shabbos? And I think -- no, I might ask you this because like I understand you and I understand what rabbi finds and is saying.

I think there are two reasons about prayer. One of the problems of prayer is that we don't believe it. I mean nobody is going to talk about it openly. You're going to translate it. You're going to have music around it. You’re going to have wonderful responsive readings, but you don't believe in prayer.

My favorite author, George Santayana said "Prayer is poetry believed in. But if it's poetry and if not believed in, if it's music and it's not believed in, it's entertainment." That's the truth. And therefore, I think, what learning can do is to deal with that. I love to see if I were a young man, your age, I would like to have a different service. And I would do first of all, I would never have that longer service, impossible. I mean, you just would not have it.

Rabbi Feinstein: You would never have that long service.

Rabbi Schulweis: Long, or you didn’t hear me? --long -- never have longer service because it's simply not mentioned. If you really expect the prayer to sink into your mind and your heart, how can you come here at 8:45 Shabbos morning and leave at 12:40 depending who the rabbi is --12:30, one o'clock. And then what does he do? He has a shear in the afternoon right after that. Can't be done.

What I would like to do is something like this. I would pray one prayer at a time and I'd stop. And I'd ask you tell me what it means. When you say, for example, "And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your soul, with all your heart, with all your might," tell me what moves you? What do you think it means?

I did it once on a -- but prayer needs commentary and it needs honesty. I don't believe in all honesty that when I pray, God is going to answer me. Because if I did that, I wouldn't know what to pray about. And if you did that, if the Jewish community did it, it would be so pact, you couldn't get in to any synagogue, but you don't do that. Why? Not because you're bad, but that is not the god you believe in.

So, now you have to draw up a group. You have to wrestle this is where Midrash comes in and you say "Well, what kind of God is it that you do believe in?" And try out Buber. Try out Rosenzweig. Try out Leo Baeck. Try out Kaplan. See how it works. Translate philosophy into life. It can be done. And I tell you one thing, that this would be -- but you got to be honest. Could I tell you one thing if you don't believe, you can't

Rabbi Feinstein: You gave a sermon some years ago after reading that book, Tuesdays with Morrie, about a certain kind of type, "A Jew who had long ago left the Jewish community, left Judaism, but what's left behind was a sort of residue of moral commitments, intellectual commitments. And you said there was so much that was Jewish in Morrie Schwartz and yet there wasn't a drop of identification in any of the words that he shared in that book. What will you say to those people? Assuming there's a large population of people very much like that, people who have left the community, but left inside of them is a great deal of sort of a late in Jewishness, what do we say to them? How do you bring them home?

Rabbi Schulweis: It's my fault. It is truly my fault because we have taught in such a road to fashion. I remember that we started -- I started this when I came to funerals. And I said to someone "You know, we close the casket. We're not going to have it opened and you're not going to have people marching round it, looking at it." And if he said to me, which he did "Why not?" He had seen it in one of the Spencer Tracy films where it was open. What was wrong with that?"

Now, if I said "Look man, this is what it says, that's a halakha. Be quiet and do it. I'm the rabbi." And I did it that way for many, many years. Wait a minute. Ask yourself an important question. Why is it? And then you say "because I don't want you to become a voyeur. I won't want you to look at this individual. I don't want him or her to be a corpse, to be an object, to be a commodity. And it is one of the greatest respects that you pay to your deceased, by not seeing him because in technical terms, he or she is someone who is seen but who does not see.

If you say to people you can't bring flowers, and then you let it go that way, and I have a feeling that Morrie heard those kind of rabbis or would've heard anyhow. Why? Is it because we have no esthetic sensibility that I didn't get flowers, roses, lilies, whatever the case may be? No. If you being to say to look because in Judaism, it is important that what you contribute, that what you spend in the name of the -- to honor the deceased should benefit the living. I never got a negative reaction to that.

Same thing with all these things -- tachrich. He asked me over and over again, do I have to have tachrich shrouds? Now, you can say one or two things. You can say yes because that is clear, or you can explain why. And once you do that it's philosophy, because there was a time in which all the dead were not put in any coffin or were carried on a litter and they would rest.

And it says in the Mishnah and the Gomorrah for that matter, that the poor people had to put on their deceased tattered clothing. The, “And they were embarrassed, and they actually fled away from it. And so this rabbi, great Rabbi Simeon ben Gamliel said "From now on, everybody wears the same thing tachrichim." Why? Because you don't want to shame the poor.

Wow. Did Morrie hear that? Never. All he heard was a couple of garbled things from Karl Marx or Engles. He didn't hear this at all. So, Morrie is my problem because we have such richness in our tradition. We're not transmitting it. And all of us have to do it, has to begin with it. That’s why this is such a one -- how you're reacting to this is amazing. Amazing, I tell some of my friends. I don't believe that there are 300 people come at family weeks.

Rabbi Feinstein: Eighteen.

Rabbi Schulweis: Eighteen. So he said to me "You must have a lot of masochists." I say "Yeah, they are people who are enjoying self-affliction. It's a self-form of flagellation. But the truth of the matter is, we are fortunate. We have our people who wants to learn. And if you connect learning, if you connect purpose, if you correct morality to prayer, then, you will pray just as you will do this our rituals.

Rabbi Feinstein: I want to ask your reaction to a different tepoos, a different character type in the community. Again, something you wrote about once. You once wrote about a confrontation with what you called a interfaithless couple. He, raised in a Jewish home, who has very little to contribute, very little of himself that he defines as Jewish. She, raised in an unchurched Christian home and they come to see you. He is embarrassed to be there because he doesn't like rabbis anyway. She is uncomfortable because she's never met a rabbi. And she turns to you and wants to know from you, "Am I welcome here?" What does this community have to say to me? Do I have a place here?

Rabbi Schulweis: This is one of the greatest graces of our movement. I'm old enough to have experienced it. There are people whom I have met who became Jews by choice who make me cry. And because they are so Jewish, so profoundly Jewish, so ethical, so proud of their Jewishness, and one of the reasons why -- and I don't understand it at all. We're going to have mixed marriages as long as we live, come on. Are you kidding? You're not babies. We're less than 2% in this country. How is there not going to be a mixed marriage? There's got to be mixed marriage. But if you have a conversion, this is a tremendous asset.

There was recently a survey put out saying that people who convert have -- do the same thing as people who are so called born native Jews. We have wonderful,

Temple Valley Beth Shalom © 2013 Page 15 wonderful people. I can't mention everybody. When I asked Yossi we need to have four Balei Kriyah We need to have four readers from the torah. You know who those four are going to be. You see them all the time.

So, it seems to me -- and by the way, I got letters when we started. It was in this Kervu deal and the bonds were involved in sponsoring that too. But we started that, I got letters. And I also got personal validation of it. We who are interested in Judaism don’t feel welcome here. We don't feel welcome. Once I tell them who I am if my name happens to be O'Reilly, or whatever the case maybe. Then it's a cold shoulder.

And this is a popular deal. In fact, the seminary knew about it, knows about it. But the seminary was very unhappy with me. I used a past tense because I don't think it will happen again. I think there's a new wind that's blowing. But they were very unhappy and they said to me, one of the big shots of the seminary said "Why are you wasting your time with them? You should be using all your energy for us." And I said to him, "When them becomes us, it's we. Don’t you understand the potentiality, the richness?" It's just -- look, Jews are not always as smart as they're thinking. You realized that you people have seen a radical change in the acceptance of women. Do you realize for all these hundreds and thousands of years how we weakened our people?

Now, we have rabbis. We have Rabbi Feinstein. We have a wonderful Talmudist, a woman. You realize what we did when didn't allow that to happen? All that energy, all that power, same thing here. Bring them in. It's a mitzvah. The only difficulty as rabbi finds it correctly pointed out is I have that Jewish guy with whom I --who doesn't want her to convert. And when I speak to her and we talk and we get along beautifully. He is unhappy. He said, "Listen, rabbi. All I came for is to ask you to officiate at the wedding. I didn't ask any conversion."

That tells you the story. It's the Jewish part of it. But if you really believe it, you would go out and you'd embrace this people, and you would embrace them, and urge them to come. Why, bring them here. Bring them to shore. Bring them to your home. Bring them to your Shabbos table. Bring them to your pesach seder. I talked to these people and I can tell you as God is my witness, I have never experienced a greater loyalty and fidelity.

I tell one story because it's true and because I remembered. I said to this guy who was a historian, who wants to become Jewish, I said "You know, we’ve had a very bad history in terms of anti-Semitism. We have anti-Semitism before, we have it today. Do you still want to convert? And he said "Yes." I said why? And he said I would rather be numbered among the persecuted than among the persecutors? That's my man.

Rabbi Feinstein: I'll just ask you one more and then we'll call it a night. In this business of facing the Judaism that's changing, living at the time of history of profound change and redefinition, for many of us, you're a great hero because of your vision and your courage, and the power of the voice that you brought to bear. I wonder who is your hero and where do you gain strength to be able to do this? Because I know when you say to this congregation, "I get letters." I know -- I've read some of those letters and it's; not easy to read those letters. And the opposition, when you say "The seminary called and said they didn’t like the idea, that's putting it incredibly mildly. It's one thing to be the follower of Herald Schulweis, but I'm wondering where Herald Schulweis gets the vision, the courage, and who do you look to when you need to be strengthened in offering that vision of what's next and enable to say how the community needs to grow and to change?

Rabbi Schulweis: You want an honest answer, right? My hero is Rabbi Feinstein. And I don't mean that as a joke. I don't mean it as a joke. It is remarkable what he has done in a relatively short time. He has built on whatever is good. He is honest. He is struggling . And he is indefatigable. I have never seen a more compulsive, obsessive individual than Rabbi Feinstein. He is ubiquitous. He is omnipresent. There is no place that he will not be there. and that, it seems to me, is heroism, because he is dedicated and devoted to his people and to their struggles to understand how to live with the sense of divinity. And I don’t mean that as a joke. I mean it seriously. I respect you Ed, and I think this congregation does as well.

Rabbi Feinstein: I’d like to finish with a very sweet announcement. You remember that about a year and a half ago, we celebrated Rabbi Schulweis' 80th birthday and we brought together a group of our friends, of five of whom I consider the great voices and visionaries of the Jewish community, Yitz Greenberg, Harold Kushner, David Ellenson, David Hartman. And we had conversation for about five days and Burt Tregub who is my friend taped every one of those, transcribed them. We edited them and we put them together in a book. The book is entitled Jews in Judaism in the 21st century, Human Responsibility, The presence of God and The Future of the Covenant. The book was delivered Monday.

Rabbi Schulweis: Oh, really?

Rabbi Feinstein: Yes. And we were hoping to have a copy to show you tonight. Unfortunately, it was delivered to the publisher in Vermont. So, they are on a truck somewhere between here and Vermont. And we will have them this next week or so. The book consists of the five essays. The five statements by these five great rabbis who joined us, remarkable, beautiful statements.

And then, you remember the conversations we had each of those nights? We edited them down into an easy-follow conversation and we appended an introduction. And Professor Paula Hyman, professor or Modern Jewish History at Yale was kind enough to write the introduction. And that book will be here momentarily as they say.

So I'm going to ask this wonderful congregation in both tribute to Rabbi Schulweis and his own joy of learning, that we will ask you to come back sometime within the month or so to share with us the conversation about that book. And then for a very nominal charge, offer you a copy of the book that we would be glad to sign to you personally that you might take home a bit of this wonderful wisdom. Herald, thank you for your wonderful comments and wonderful conversation.

Rabbi Schulweis: It's been a pleasure.

Rabbi Feinstein: Thank you all of you. Have a good night.