Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 1926
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Questi01:s. [9 NovBMBER.] Questwns. 1677
"2. Tenders and quotations invited. "3. Practically the "·hole of the department's requirements are purchased by quotations. " 4. All vendors of the department's requirements throughout the State. (See attached schedule.) " 5 and 6. See answers to {2), (3), and {4). "7. Department's chief buyer."
SCHEDCLE OF SUPPLIE!l~. Brisbane (Hardware, etc.).-J ames Oamp lwll and Sons; Smellie and Oo. ; \Vatson Bros.; \Vilson, Tait, and Oo.; Ironmongeries Limited; McDonnell Hardware Co. ; Paul and Gray; Perry Bros.; P. Fleming and Som; E.S.O.A.; Norman Bell and Co.; Trackson Bros.; Ediswan Co.; Wm-: A dams; John Reid and N ephcws; Lawrence and Hansen; Brisbane Electrical Co.; Si-emens (Aust.) Ltd. ; Australian General Electric Co. ; Queensland Machinery Co. ; Elder, Smith, and Co.; Wildridge and Sinclair; Finney, Isles, and Co. ; ;\Ic\Yhirtcrs Ltd.; T. 0. Beirne and Co.; Lanham and Oo.; F. Tritton and Co. ; Chapman and Oo.; John Hicks, Ltd.; McDonnell and East; A. and G. Finla;vson ; Surgical Sup plies, Ltd. ; Laycock. Littlcdike, and Co. ; Carricks Ltd. ; Shearer, Brown, and Co.; Joinerics Ltd.: Storic and Co.; A. J. Wills; Bell Bros.; Queensland Cement and Lime Co. ; 'rUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER, 1926. H. M. Russell and Oo.; Yeerong pill;v Sawmill Co.; Richmond River C'o. ; Victory Planing Mill; A. J. and C. Carmichael; Brett and Oo. : The SEAKER (Hon. \V. Bertram, Maree) Brisbane Brick and B.S. Oo.; took the chair at 10.30 a.m. Brittains Ltd.; Ebbw Vale Brick \V mks; Dowser. Lever, and Oo. ; QUESTIONS. Brisbane Wharves Ltd.; Graver, 8ancl. and Supply Oo. ; Edwards. Goons l'c:RCHASED BY DEPAR'DIEliT OF PuBLIC Fain, and Oo.; P. J ohnstone; Exton WoRKS, 1925-26. ~1td Co. ; Gour;h Bros. : Cloan and ::Ylr. TAYLOR (Wind
Wynnum.-J. Blatchford. Home Hill.-D. Buchanan. 1'oowoomba.-A. and D. Munro; Filshie, .4.yr.-Smellie and Co. Broadfoot, and Co.; Forsyth and Cai1·ns.-Cairns Timber Co. ; Alien and Tho:nson; H. Philp; D. A. Merser; Sons; Burns, Philp, and Co.; Smellie C. Plant; J. Brazier; City Council; and Co.; City Council; Jorgensen ;~ \Yyeths Ltd.; Exton and Co.; Kim Svensden; Taylor Ltd. mins and Sons; O'Brien and Fitz patrick; J. O'Neill; Rosentengels; ll:fount Jfolloy.-Johnston. Klcming Ltd. M arce ba. -Granite· Sawmills; Brick- Dalby.-Downs Timber Co.; J. Jack..:_ works; Smith. Dalby Plumbing Works. Babinda.-Whitchurch Bros.; and Wanvick.-Hewitson and Co.; A. others. Millar; J. Heyden; J. Stewart; Row lands; Barnes and Co. STATEME:>T OF SECRETARY FOR MIXES DURING Stanthorpr.--:-::i. J. Thompson, P. Ryan. DEBATE oN il-lrNES EsrnrATES. Roma.-Lister and Hibberd. Mr. MOORE (c1ubigny) asked the Secre tary for Mines- Char le villc.-.J. Roche; Barbers Ltd . .1. Aliens Ltd. " 1. Is the shtemcnt appearing in last night's ' Telegraph' in the report of his C"nnamulla.-F. Hobson; J. Cnff. speech correct, wherein he is reported to Caboolt1lre.-Attewells Ltd. ; JIII. Zanow. have said, '\Yithout mentioning any name~, I sav he is indebted for his in Beerwah.-J. Simpson. forn1ation tO a scoundrel, a gaol-birdr Lar.dsborough.-Hancock and Gore. and a ' crook,' and I have never made a Woo m byc.-Bartholomew and Cary. statement during my political career that I have had to withdraw'? .Yambo1lr.-Morcton Central Mill. "' 2. As he is absolutely ignorant of the Eumundi.-G. C. Epheridge; Sh·aker sources from which I gathered my in and Gi!liland. for!nation, does he consider such a state 9 Cooroy.-Fenwick Bros. ment either fair or justifiable " Gympie.-Ferguson and Co.; Shamblers The SECRETARY .FOR MINES (Hon. Ltd. ; Holloways Ltd. A . .J. JonE', Paddington) replied- Woodford.-Fredin and Co. " 1. \Vhile not questioning the correct Kilcoy.-Thurecht Bros. ness of the ' Tclogra ph ' reporter in this §furgon.-Jiiiurgon Sawmilling Co. House, I reco;;nise only the official record of the House. Wondai.-F. H. Jones. " 2. Accepting the attitude of the Kingaroy.-D. Gallagher. Opposition on the matter which was cYanango.-Timber Corporation Ltd.; und2r discussion at the time as a standard D. Raverty. of fairness. I consider my remarks fair Maryborough.-Hyne and Son; Sims and mild." Ltd.; Wilson, Hart, and Co.; Fairlie and Son; Horsborough and Co. ; LEAD ORE SuPPLIED TO f'HILLAGOE STATE City Council; E. Puller; E. Meridith. S)IELTERS BY MR. F. REID. Brooweena.-Lahey Bros. Mr. MOORE (Aubigny) asked the Secre Bundaberg.-Skyring and Sons; Keys tary for ::Ylines- Estate; Wyper Bros. ; E. A. Fisher. " 1. Are the following particulars Gladstone.-Skyring and Sons; Glad correct with reference to lead ore sup stone Hardware Co. plied by F. Rcid to the State smelters at Chillagoe in July last :-Quantity, 646 Childers.-Isis Sawmill Co.; Wyper tons 7 cwt. 0 qr. 20 lb.; net assay, silver, Bros. 6.9 per cont. ; lend. 4.67 per cent. ; net Kabra.-J. O'Shanessey. sih-er contents, 4.262 oz.; net lead con Rocklwmpton.-'N. A. Lawson; Thorpe tents, 28.8680 tons; lead paid for at and Robson; Williams Ltd. ; Brickles £31 13s. 10d. a ton; cheque to Reid, and Co. ; J. J ames; Skyring and £1.095 6s. 7d.? Sons. " 2. Assuming that the figures are cor Mount "'forgan.-J. W. Chenery. rect, are not lead ores assaying under Lonrfrcach.-Meacham and Leyland; 10 per cent. subject to a deduction of Edwards, :Martin, Ltd. · 5 per cent., leaving no lead value m Barcaldine.-Meacham and Leyland. this ore? " 3. Under the tariff what ''ould be Jfac~ay.-Porter and Sons; \Vilson, Hart, and Co. ; Marsh and Webster; the correct calculations with respect. to Flemings Ltd.; Shepherd and Sons; this ore under the following headings: J. H. Wright; E. Manuel. (a) Metal contents-(1) silver and value, (2) lead and value. (b) Deductions-(1) Bowrn.-C. Michael; T. J. Heron; smelting charge, (2) charge for realisation Burns, Philp, and Co. of lead, (3) roasting charge, (4) railage 1'mcnsz-ille.-G. Walsh; Chapmans Ltd.; and any other charges? Rooneys Ltd. ; City Council; S. "4. \Vould the final balance be a debit Alien and Sons; Cathcart and or a credit, and how much?" Ritchie; J. McCohnell; T. Juster. Clzartrrs Towers.-H. Hall; T. Chap The SECRETARY FOR l\1INES (Hon. pell. A. J. Jones, Paddington) replied- lngham.-I. Church; W. J. Bird. " Th<' information is being obtained."" Gift Duty Bill. [9 NOVE;>IBER.] Gift Duty Bill. 1679
SLAG SFPPLJED 'fO CHILLAGOE SMELTERS BY I do not propose to go into this que,tion );IR. F. REID. very deeply this morning, I say that there Mr. :MOORE (.A,ubigny) asked the Secre is only one principle contained in this Bill-· that is, Is it right or equitable that r,ifts tary for ::Yfines- should be taxed? The machinery clauses of " With rderence to various parcels of the Bill, setting out the method to be adopted the 'Ti-Tree' slag supplied by Frederick in arriving at the taxation, comprise th·_1 Reid to the State smelters between 12th whole Bill. There is a difference of opinion December, 1923; and 18th February, 1924, as to whether the State shoald tax giftc, totalling 543 tons, and averaging approxi especially if they arc bona fide gifts: mately 0.5 oz. silver, no lead, and 0.33 but we know that the object behind the Bill per cent. copper, what was the total is t0 accomplish something by preYcnting amount paid to Reid for these parcels?" the method which is taking place to-day of The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. using the gift method to evade taxatio'l A. J. Joncs, Paddington) replied- generally. t~o one ,will argue that it ls not right to prevent people evading taxation. " The inforrna6on is being obtained." \Ve all agren that income tax: and prob:ttc duty arc legitimate and equitable taxes-I PAPERS. do not 'ay that we all agree about the rCct.•s that rrre applied; but the principle bP hind The following paper was laid on the table, succe'Sion duty, probate duty, and income and ordered to be printed:- tax is recognised and agreed to by all Report of the Provisional Forestry Board political parties; and anv section cf the for the year ended 30th June, 1926. community which adopts rncthods to evade its responsibility in regard to those taxation The following paper was laid on the methods surely is not deserving of very table:- much sympathy when a proposal is brought Additional Regulations under the Mining forward to prevent mch evasion. It is qmte Acts. common for very wealthy people to divide their wealth by spreading it among members of their families, primarily, to spread the IND1JSTRIAL ARBITRATI0::\1 ACTS incidence of taxation:...... _in other words. to AMEND::\IENT BILL. divide up an income amdngst the "·hole 1 INJTIATJON. family, so that they will be taxed at a ower rate on that income. That is being done The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND every day with that object in view. \Ve INDUS'I'RY (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich): have no objection to the individual doing I beg to move- that; but we say that he should pav the " That the House will, at its next taxation t-o which he is liable for doing, that, sitting. resolve itself into a Committee of He is allowed to do it-there is no sin in the Whole to consider of the desirableness doing it-and so long as he does it and pavs of introducing a Bill to amend the Indus the cost of doing it there can be no objection trial Arbitration Acts, 1916 to 1925 " in a to him conv!'rting his business into a limited certain particular." ' liability company or dividing his interests among his family. Bnt we must sec that Question put and passed. he does not do ~o with the object of evading his . responsibilit,ic •. fmt of all, in regard SOUTH BRISBANE-KYOGLE-GRAFTON t? .'~'come ~ax; and, secondly. the respon RAILWAY AGREE"MENT BILL. srbihty whrch may devolve on the estate l;~ter in regard to suc~c,.sion and probate THIRD READING. c,ubcs. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS Lot us examine for n moment the methods (Hon. J, Larcoml1e, Il eppel) : I beg to which are adopted. I have had some experi move- ~' "e with reg~Lrd to the methods adopted " That the Bill be now read a third m the Lands Department to divide amongst time." rnPmbNs of families interc ;ts in land ille Question put. and passed. gnlly held-not fraudulent!:' hut illegally held -to evade certarn responsibilities. When I have put it to the head of a familv ',Yh£>re GIFT DUTY BILL. there have been five or six selection; in the names of members of the familv as to whethe< SECOND READING. his sons and daughters bona' fide held that The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, land, and whether in case of marriage he Cairns) : The proposals contained in the would allow .the land to go with the daughter Bill we-re very fullv discussed on the resolu rf she marned someone the father did not tion introduced in' Committee of \Vays and approve of, he said "No." showing that the Means on which this Bill is founded, There ?ivision w:'s merely for the purpose of evad is only one principle in the Bill, and I ''!g. ~axatwn., I do not object to people think everything that could be said upon d1v1~:ng thmr property amongst their the Bill was said at the Committee stage, famrhcs. I know the danger of the big although the second reading is the stage family business, which sometimes leads where the principles of the Bill should be people to take advantage of the company law discussed. I think it is a bad practice to to convert their businesses into limited discuss the principles of a Bill at the initia liability companies. In manv instances that tory Committee stage. It certainly prevents is in the interests of the business. We know the Minister in charge of the Bill from that big family concerns have a bad habit going to the trouble, when moving the of losing their ptmch, as it were, when second reading, of delivering a speech deal the great central figures which established ing with a question which has been torn them pass away, and there is a better chance to tatters at a previous stage. of continuing those businesses under the Hon. W. 11fGCormrJr?lc.] 1680 Gift Duty Bill. [ASSEi\fBLY.] Gift Dut:; Jnl.
COllll1?dlY systernJ bet J.usc they are rnore 'There aro some big incornc ta.x payer.;; hk~·I,\ to get efficient and capable nutnago paying nearly one-half of their income in rnent under directors or general 1nanagers. iucomo tax-not to the State alone but l-o the So we sPe great farnily busiucs3cs p~i' ~sing Commonwealth Government also-the Com into limited liability companic, after a few monwealth rates of income taxat-ion on the D;C'ncratiolls and being carried on bv those highor incomes arc much higher than those companies with benefit, I think, 'to the in the State-and those taxpayers fer,] community genEn-tlly and no Ios.' to the aggrieved. people who deal with them or compost' them. Mr. KING : rrhe Con1monwea1th succession ThPre can be no objection to that procedure, but I 11g·ain stress the point that no wealthy duty is not so high as the State duty. person should be allowed, "·hen he is chang The TREASUREE: The Commonwealth ing O' er from individual ov:nPr:
1926-5 L Hon. 1V. McCormack.] 1682 Gift Duty Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Gift Duty Bill.
a hardship, but the income tax is not imposed enforce what was intended. That is the chief to bring about that result. I know indi reason. viduals whose income may have been £4.000 The TREASURER: That is what your pro· or £5.000 last year, and whose income this !cssion exists for. year may be only £1,000, and out of t-hat £1.000 they will have t
lower than those operating in :\'ew Zealand, It appears to me that this Bill covers abso but our succession and estate duties arc lutely every gift that may be made. It much higher than those in Nev Zealand. applies to every kind of disposition of pro This Bill >vill rhult in there being no dis perty. I han• carefully looked through the pc,sition of property by any individual dur clauses dealing with the disposition of pro· ing his lifctin1c. perty, and I cannot thjnk of a single forrn of I ould like also to point out th-ct in ·disposition that has been omitted. It applies Qu~c>nsiand we have a Stamp Act which to every disposition of property other than a enables stan1p duty ranging frorn one-half disposition of property by virtue of a will. per cent. on gifts of a value of £1.000 to It applies to every vo!uatary contract. ,.\,_ 5 per cont. on gifts exceeding a valuo of Yoiuman contract is a contract which is £9,000 to be collected. The Treasurer rnadc vvlthout full and adequate coruidera >tated that it was usual to make a taxation tion ·either in mo~cy or 1noncy's 'vorth. ..._..\. measure retrospective to the date when it contract made for nlOllCV or n1onf_ v's vvorth v1as first n1adc public. and he inforn1ed us is not, of courSt'\ a volll!_1tary con~ideration that it \Os on 1st July that it ,,-as publidy LXC0pt so far as tho consideratio:_: falls short otated such a measure would be introduced. of the full ,-a[ue of the consideration, The TREASCRER: I did not sa;· that was The interpretation of "disposition of pro -the exact date. perty" is extren1ely wide. \Yhat does this Mr. KL'JG: The first information hon. disposition of property mean or include? It members on this side had of the introduc includes-and I would like the Treasurer to tion of such a n1easure was whon it ·was take particular rwtice of this-the g-ranting introduced into this Chamber. It ,·;as not or creation of any lca.:;o,e. If an arrange1ncnt 1nentioned in the Premie1·'s policy spc:cr;h. is mad-e between a lessor and a le'''lce for the and the excuse gi,rcn for rnaking tho Bill lease of a parcel of land, the Commissioner r _•trospoctive is not a sound one b~~ any always a,ks if any premium has been paid in HE'an:". Thr-re arc 1nanv reasons '..1 ·hv it connection with the lease. If so, he collects should not. be made retrospeeti,-e, an'd I ad valorem dt1ty on that premium. If no appeal to the Treasurer not to mak<> it vrcmium has beon pai·d, and the Comr.nis retrospective bec·ond the date of its intro sioner belieH'· that the creation of the lease du<:;tiou into this Charnbor. During the inYolves a gift, he may call upon the parti' ; Cornmitte0 stage I intend to 1nove an to produce that lc,ase for stamping for stamp amendment to that effect. The rd.rospectiYe duty purposes. He might say there is a gitt provision will operate harshly and will di' there. \vhcreas there is no gift at all, but a iurb unduly the existing tronsactions. iYe bona fide arrangement between the lessor and know that a great many docur.1cnts have the lessee. been stamped since bt. July, and, if the rotrospecti,-e provision of the Bill is adopted. ~lr. COLLli\S: Yol! are very class-conscious tht:'n those documents 1nust con10 up fo-r OY --'1' t:-~crc; I give you credit for it. and I donb~ Yerv much whcthu 1\lr. KI:\G: I do not take very much provi,;iL.n in the Sta'inp _.:_\et to per noti( ,' ef ,vhat the hon. n1cn1ber for Bo,ven a set-off in the way of stamp duty says. paid. :0tlr. CoLLlXS: Eccausc I an1 saying v:hat The Bill i going to affect a nutnber of is the truth. partnerships. This is a 1nattcr whith rcferr ~-d to in his second read ;y1r. KI:\G : The hon. member is a very It is \Yf'll kno\vn that unclPr the worthy old ge11tlcinnn, I adtuit, but beyond ~.f tl1e Land _c\ct Amcndnwnt Aet that 1 do not take lntwh not,i,_;8 of him. It 1 1 1:.~ S, ___,l C'tarv for Pub11c LancL~, und 0 r was n1cntioncd in the initiatory stages that of forfeiture, compelled fayn;lics to enter the term " gift " includes statute barred deed:; of 11o.rtncr::,hip for 'vorking their deht.3. I do not know how far the Trea grazing fanns. They were surer intellds to .narry that policy, Tho hon. l_l:_.3o u.r.1.] pdlcd to ·do f1o, othf'rwi~::- gcntlernan tolrl us this n;o.!_·ning that thu tions y·hich '·'ere held perhaps cinu.-,,~ '"t'ould not be carried out to the extent fai h, r. a:r j dnu::_,htcr :.o as a fan1ily con- to 1.:hich it aj_'l1~a1·s it could he carricd out. ~. ru be liable to forfeiture. ?\Ianv I arn hoping that the hun. grntleman \vill f.eiectul'S ayailrd then1seh-cs of the provision~s i'tnd sorne Lleans of giving a clearer explana of th. t Act and cnt, red into deeds of partner tion of a disposition of pro pc c"ty so fa·r as ship with n1cn1bt!fs of their farnilies. Tho~,e these debt- at·c concerned. If the Bill is deeds Df partnership ,,·.ore dul;;· presented at all
advised by the Commissioner that it is due matters, that the reason for the introduction of !o him. He has to find out for himself, and, the Bill was to secure more money. It might fu_rt~ermore, he must make his application properly be said that the view taken by the w1thm two years. Surely, if he is entitled to hen. gentleman is that the money would be any rebate at all, it is the dutv of the more useful now than smn.e years hence, and, Commissioner to advise him ! But ·he is left whilst no doubt succession duty must in~vit to his own devices to find out. rrbly be collcctoo by the State, the hon. The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem gentle1nan is anxious to obtain now some of be;r is not in order in dealing- "·ith details at the benefits of the splendid harvest obtained th1s stage. from death duties, and, in view nf his pre'1ent financial difficulty, he seeks to impose a gift Mr. KING: I am very sorry that I have duty to obviate the necessity of waiting for tran~g-resscd, Mr. Speaker. I suppose I shall people to die. be m order in dealing- with the rig-ht of appeal .against a decision of the Commis The hon. gentleman referred to an indi SIOner, for that is a principle of the Bill. I vidual, for reasons best known to himself, am bo':'nd to say that the provision to that subdividing- his prop•crty, all the time suggest effect IS ono of the best provisions in the ing- that this action was taken in order to measure. It provides for an inexpensive evade succession ·duty. The hon. g-entleman method of appeal-a method far better than also referred to the fact that individuals con that provided in the Stamp Act, for instance. verted their bqsinesses into joint stock com An OPPOSITION MEMBER: There will be panies. He stated that there was nothing plenty of .appeals. ag-ainst the formation of a joint stock com panv, but he complained that it was being Mr. KING : There will be any number of done to evade succession duty. On many ai?poals, a?d the only fault I have to find occasions we have heard the Government With the nght of appeal is that it is limited announce that it is their policy to burst up to too few matters. It is not wide enough. larg-e estates. If a person many years ag-o If we could get an amendment which would took up a large area in the We-·t, what give .a right of appeal on practically any objection can there be to his subdividing that 9ue,tw': on :vhrch the Commissioner may be area, and doing- something- which is in the m confhct w1th the donor or donee, it would interests of closer settlement? The Govern be far bett-er. ment have never ceas.,·d to preach the The provisio.ns. which bestow certain powers doctrine of closer settlement, which is the on the Comm1sswner are Yery wide. In mv aim of us all, and which is specifically per opinion they give to him powers which ar~ mitted by Act of Parliament. \V c are always far too g-reat. In the first place, he has the proclaimiug that our object is to encourag-e pmver to say ''hether the considPr"tinn for " more people to come to this country and gift ~s adequate or inadequate. That-;; ~ settle on th" land. Yet, when it is sug-gested questwn of fact. The Commissioner has the to the Go·,·-rnment in connection with this ng-ht , to make. a _claim and the party con Bill that it ,, a de irable thing that a larg-e cerned can res1st 1t and then the court can 0state should be divided up among-st a de~ermine it; but 'I am rather inclined to nurnbcr and, int';'!tead o£ having one man to thmk that the court will be very much ham carrv· l'n that particular business, pered m respect of these matters, because all [12 noon] you n,ay h:1ve five, six, or seven rt has to ask itself is, " Was the Commissioner people- r<'latives if you likc actmg- bona fi·dc in the opinion he gave? " C'arrying on that business, putting more If he w_as, the court has to accept his opinion. energ-y into it and making towards the better I _ccrtamly think the Bill wants amending to ment of Quo0nsland as a whole, he is to be g:ve the court unlimited power in that hounded -down; and vrc find the hon. g--entle drrection. man putting- a tax on those people for doing There is a silly provision dealinry with gifts the very thing which he and his Government of _£20, giving the Commissione~ power to are advocating in connection with land settle dcc1de whether the payments are payments ment ! Thev do not believe in the ag-grega made in good faith, and whc,ther thcv arc iiDn of estates. They are now turning their part of the normal expenditure of the donor. back on that principle by putting this bar I look upon that stupid provision as nothing on the division of these properties. The more than ab olute rot. How can anvbodv holders of these largo estates will not now say that a gift at any time can be considered split them up, and their management will run as normal expenditure? Peonle do not live on until their death, when death duties will be paid on their estates. I can hardly under by m a king- g-ifts1 therefore ho~ can a gift be normal expenditure? There are quite a st.ar.d the log-ic of the hon. g-entleman. He number of other provisions to which I could hss attempted to make out that those people refer. but it is most ·difficult to deal with a the '.treasurer says, " We will put a tax on with the hon. gentleman, because there is him." That bears out the statement I have a provision in the Bill which says that- made that the Tr·easurer is not so anxious to " The duty shall be payable _on the stop the leaks he mentioned as he is to making of the gift, notwithstandmg t.he •obtain more money. fact that the interests of the donees I was very pleased to hear the Treasurer or any of them shall be future interests." say this morning-and probably it was the I can conceive a case where a man makes result of the discussion on the initial stages a gift in futurity. At the time the gift of the Bill, because during that time the is made it may be estimated at £1,000, but matter was ventilated-that he will endeavour in five or ten years that property may not to provide that the duties shall be imposed be worth a snap of the fingers. It J?ay in an equitable manner. That statement have depreciated and deteriorated; yet. right ·quite justifies the discussion which then took from the start, on the assumption that the place. I will quote two cases where these gift will be worth a ce.rtain amount at a duties will operate very harshly. One is not certam dai·e, the full gift duty on £1,000 in connection with the big, f.at man we hear has to be paid. That is a wrong principle. so much about, but a man of modest means. If the gift is given in futurity, the duty There is a provision in the Bill which states should be paid on the actual value of the that a gift- gift at the time when the donee t-akes pos " means and includes any disposition of session. In further support of my stateme:rt property which is ma·de otherwise than as to the retrospectivity of the measure, m by will (whether with or without an the init.ial stages I quoted instances where instrument in writing), without fully transactions may have been entered into in adequate consideration in monBy or years gone by-transactions thoroughly in money's worth ~~ssing from the disponee accord with the law and on which stamp to the disponer. duty was paid. Because the exe,~ution of the documents is not finalised unt-il 1st July, Take the case of a husband who decides 1926, the donees have to pay a gift duty to buy a house to live in. We will say that on the value of the gift which comes to them the purchasing price of that house is £1,500. after 1st July, 1926. He decides to put that house in his wife's The Mr. RIORDAN: He took everything out Mr. KELSO: In the interests of the and put nothing back. public there should be some simple way in \rhich matters in dispute can be decided, and Mr. KELSO: 'l'he late James Tyson was people shonJ.d not have to go to the expensive one of the m03t careful men Queensland ever method of t-aking legal proceedings. I hope had, but the State got the benefit of his that the Treasurer will take this matter into work. He did better dcvring his lifetime consideration. An enormous number of cases with his money than those who got it after will arise in which grave dissatisfaction will wards. be expressed by those who are called npon Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS : In the to pay a tax which they think t-hey should majority of cases it wont through their not have to pay. As the Treasurer has said, fingers like water. this is a primarily a Committee Bill. I am Mr. KELSO: If the late James Tyson only supplementing what I said before m had disposed of his property as a careful dsaling with the principles of the Bill. I man would under this Bill-- a m pleased the 'Treasurer is not going to adopt the same inflexible attitude which he The SPEAKER : Order ! adopted on the Stamp Acts Amendment Bill. lf we can show a good case for amendments Mr. KELSO: If a man disposes of his in certain directions in Committee, I hope prope•rty under this Bill, he sees that the the Treasurer will give us a fair show and donees are persons who are likely to con ireat the amendments on their merits. tinue at least on the same lines that ho has been going, and by the extra energy Mr. KERR (Enoggrra) : It is very dis they put in do good to Queensland as well. <1ppointing that in such a long and compli Mr. PEASE: That is really the a-ood part cated Bill as this, which is very difficult to of this Bill. b follow, the Treasurer has not seen fit t-o gi vo us a better second reading speech thr.n Mr. KELSO : I am afraid the hon. mem he made this morning. One can express the ber has not been listening to my argument. I am pointing out that it will be the object position in a few words by saying that the hon. gentleman has unquestionably this morn ?f .t~e donor t? gi:co his property to an mdiVtdual who 1s gomg to try to do better ing "slummed " his job. I have gone to for Queensland. But this revenue Govern considerable trouble tD look up the records ment, or rather " reverend " Government-- and study the second reading spec;ches made m the Parliaments in Australia on Bills The SPEAKER : Order ! liko this, and in nearly every instance in Mr. KELSO: I saw a picture of the Trea tho"e Parliaments-in the Commonwealth surer with a halo. Parliament particularly-a full explanation was grvcn of every principle contained in tho The SPEAKER : Order ! Bill. Mr. KELSO: They take such a great Tbe Treasuru- said t-his morning that the interest in taxation that thev want to Bill contained one principle-that of taxing encourag·e this man by puttini on a tax, a gift. I do not think it requires much studv and in some cases the tax goes up to 20 rier of the Bill to find that it contains many cent. ' When a man makes a gift up to complicated principle'. The Ltxat-ion of gifts £35,000 he gets to the maximum. may be the basic principle of the Bill. but there are hundreds of smaller issues which Mr. PEASE: He can well afford to pay it. could have been explained to the House ::\;Ir. KELSO: I do not- think that is in in a second reading speech. It has struck the best interests of Queen -lm,d. I do not me from time to time that the Treasurer think this Bill provides any easy method in n1~ny of his second reading speeches does by whtch anyone who is dissatisfied with not grvo t-he full explanation which is ne,,es the powers of the Commissioner can have a '"-ary. say. He certainly can go to a judge in The SPEAKER : Order ! che,mbers; but, seeing that so much is left. to the individual discretion of the Com The TR~ASURER: If vou waste five hours missioner, it is only fair in the inter~sts of on the introductory stage of a Bill, you will the public that some simpler form of apnoal not get a long second re 1ding speech. should be adopted in connection with gifts up to a certain amount. When the amount :VIr. KERR: The hon. gentleman kno<> s gets beyond a certain figure it is worth that hardly a word is said on the introduc going to a judge then; but there are many t-ory stages of most Bills. If anv deduction cases in which it is a matter of individual can be made from the few words spoken by opinion between the Commissio"ner on thl' the Treasurer-that is, those which had am- ono side and the donor on the other. The thing to do with the Bill at all-it is ftilt Treasurer would be well advised t-o adopt it is not a Bill specially designed to tax some simple and inexpensive method of gifts so much as a Bill for the purpose of appeal, say, by wrty of a court of arbitration keeping large incomes intact and so colloct which would be qualified to judge in th/, jng a greater an1ount in income tax. The matter. Tr-easurer amplified that idea, and gave as an example a case in which £100,000 was Mr. H. M. RusSELL: Similar to that under involved, and I am inclined to believe that the old Stamp Act. the Bill is designed fo-r the purpose of ~rr. KELSO: Similar to that under t-he keeping large inc:::>mes intact. Let us old Stamp Act, nndor which a man can examine that principle closely to det~rmine proceed .if he thinks the Commissioner's whether it is better that largo incomes judgm:n! is not correct-and I suppose the should be kept intact in order that the Comnnsswner wonld be the first to admit 'Treasurer and his party may get greater ihat. like ot-her men, he is not infallible. income tax from them. I say that it would be most detrimental to the State. If we The TREASURER: I can see you have not spread our taxation ovc•r a larger number much to do with him. of people, if we give thorn the capital with flJ:Ir. Kelso. Gift Duty Bill, [9 ~OVEMBER.] Gift DutJ Bill. 1689 which to enter int? enterprises, they will ing revenue. The State has been so badly extend the mdustr1es of Queensland and managed during the past eleven years that it the Government will get more incorr:e tax is necessary to comb every avenue of taxation. in that .way than if they keep the large I desire to lodge an emphatic protest against mcome3 mtact. The principle the Treasurer the introduction of fresh taxation, and suggested is a wrong principle to adopt. I deplore the necessity as a result of mal never heard such an absurd proposal in mv administration for our present taxation life, yet the hon. gentleman stood on the measures. floor of this Chamber and said that the principle ?ehind the Bill was not altogether Mr. CoLLINS : According to the general the ta_xatwn of g1fts. but the keeping of manager of the firm of Allan and Stark, large mcomes mtact, so that a property of trade has increased in Queensland. £100.000 which he quoted might be pro· :Mr. KERR: Not in the same proportion as served and the ratio of income tax mi"'ht in other Shtes. We are enjoying only an reach 10s. to the £1. " artificial prosperity made possible by the Mr. CoLLINS interjected. expenditure of millions of pounds in loan money. As soon as the expenditurB of that ~!fr. KERR: I know where I stand. We loan money ceases our artificial prospBrity nevN know where the hon. member stands. will vanish, and there will be no opportunity He asked this morning, " \Vhat does it of introducing taxation measures, as then matter when only 2 per cent. of the popu there will be no income to tax. We must latron are concerned?" That is onlv 16.000 realis-e that property is not given away persons, and if he likes to make a st~ tistica1 indiscriminately, and in nine oases out of ten return-- the taxation of gifts in property will mean :Ur. C'~LLINS: Then I may ha·. e to increase the taxation of family arrangements. These n1v percentage. arrangements are not made be<'ause the pro perty is no longer required, or with the :VIr. KERR: The hon. member makes object of evading t,axation. All over the statements which carry no weight at o.ll. world the formation of joint stock companies If he belongs to a party which believes in having a limited liability to the amount of keening incomes of £100,000 intact and not the share ea pital has resulted in great benefit dividing them between a larger numbe·r of to the community. The amalgamation of persons, so that the income taxation of the brains and capital has enabled the under State will not be interfered with, then I taking of greater enterprises than could have do not know where we are getting to. It been tackled by individuals alone. In Eng is an entirely wrong· principle. land, where joint stock companies have been a great succ-ess, the combination of capital Another point I want to stress is this : The Treasurer,_ as I have just stated, dealt was not effected for the purpose of evading \nth the questiOn of the larger incomes. If taxation. If the Treasurer is sincerely of there is no intention to hit what we li:now the opinion that joint stock companies are as tbe smaller man, the Government could formed with the idea of evading taxation, ver,. well raise the minimum value of g-ifh then he does not understand our business which it is proposed to tax under this Bill. community. In nine cases out of ten they The measure is based on a minimum of are not formed with the object of evading £1.000. Hon. members must realise that taxation, but f9r the purpose of securing a to-day people who have property worth g-reater amount of ea pital than could other £1.000 are not the wealthy people. Why, wise be obtained for carrying out some hug suggest that the Treasurer and the Govern The SPEAKER: Order! ment should not make any attack upon them Mr. KERR: It is no use attempting to but. give them every possible encouragement. dodge the issue by saying that this is merely I desire to say a word or two in protest a tax on the individual with large capital. against the retrospectivity clause of the Bill. It is not. A tax on such an indivi-dual will The Government have featured retrospectivity indirectly affect the whole community, in their legislation. It is a wrong principle because it affects the business with which that to adopt. When asked by way of interjec man is associated. I am not crying " stinking tion what the .reason was for the retrospec fish." My opinion of Queensland is well tivitv, the Treasurer said that the reason known; but capital is a very scarce com was ~vel! known. Is tl1e hon. gent.leman in a modity in Queensland in comparison with the position to know that advantage has been other States. Why is it scarce? That Is a taken of the intention of the Government legitimate question. One of the main reasons to introduce this Bill ? I keep in close why capital is scarce is that it is taxed touch with matters of a political nature, and in every conceivable way. If a person makes I can honestly say that I did not know of a gift of £5,000, he does not take that money any proposal to introduce a Bill to impose out of the back yard, but out of his business duties on gifts until notice of the intention interests; and taxation on that gift is taxa to int-roduce the Bill was given. tion on the business interests involved. No The TREASURER : YOU missed it. doubt the man himself, as the owner of the businDss, is being hit; but the business itself Mr. KERR: If that is the guiding prin suffers, and the imposition is reflected in the ciple for the inclusion of this retrospective welfare of the community. That is a point clause, then the Treasurer will have to dis that must be driven home. This sort of cuss an amendment to make this Bill read, thing is all right in theory. In theory, the .as 99 per cent. e>f Acts of Parliament hon. member for Bowen may be sound in read, that it shall come into operation on saying, " If a man has £50,000, and desires the date it :is p;·oclaimed. to give it away, certainly take some for the Mr. HYNES: Your contention is very State-." Any man who has never stq-died the unsound. question would immediately say there is no harm in that at all; but the individual should M1·. KERR: If I entered into an arrange be set aside, and it should be realised that it ment on 2nd July in good faith in accordance is the capital invested in the business or in with the laws of the country, it is unfair the property concerned which has to meet four months afterwards to introduce legis that taxation. When that is realised one gets Iat_ion and say, "~ook here, Mr. Kerr, you down to tin tacks and discovers who is r-eally paid your fees under a certain Act, but we paying the taxation. Hon. members opposite have passed another Act. to compel you to will have to forget the individual when deal pay double fees." The hon. member for ing with this sort of thing, as it is the T<;wnsville knows that the pi·inciple is not capital of the country that is once again fa~r. Such clauses a;;,e very often forcibly being taxed. That is the essential we have dr1ven home to us. 1.he Treasurer will be to r,ccognisc, but the Treasurer himself does well advised. not only in this Bill but in not seem to realise it. The hon. gentleman ot~er Bills, to abandon retrospective pro was speaking the other day about the saving VISions. of souls. What has the saving of souls to do Some other Bxtraordinary principles aro with the payment of duties? There is no contained in this Bill. If an individual is sou! in capital. domiciled in Queenslan4 and makes a gift of property, he pays a gift dutv whether the The SPEAKER: Order ! property is situate in Queensland or else Mr. KERR: There is no son! in capital. where. Surely the time has passe-d whf'O a man, merely because ho is domiciled in this GovERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! State. is to. be asked, when making a gift;, Mr. KERR: What is capital for? To to. p~y a gift duty on the property whether create rnore work, and the Governn1cnt are It 1s m Queensland or outside, in tr,ansit on the taxing capital to-day. sea, or somewhere else ! Not onlv is this Bili designed to drive capital out o'f the St,ate 'fhe SPEAKER : Order ~ but it will also drive the individual out of the StatB. The hon. member for Bowen Mr. KEHR: In every form of taxation shakes his head, but that is the ca~e. the money has to come from somewhere. It is not hoarded up by individuals, more Mr. G. P. BARNES: Ho will change his especially in a young country like Australia. domicile. Money in Australia is always in circulatiOI_l. Mr. KERR: Of course he 'Yill, and evade It is developing our country, and that 1s ~he tax .. I hea':d a man who has property the mone.c that is being taken and plr.cc-d m VIdona mentiOn that he intended to make in the coffers of the State. I hate to sec a g1ft of that propertv. Beoouse that man money going into the coffers of the State. is domiciled in Queen;land he has to come I hate to see a penny piece going to this to this Government, make a statement and Government, because of their extravagant pay gift duty on the gift. If he left this 'stat0 methods. Every penny that is spent by this and went to live in New South \Vales or Government could be made to earn 2d. by Victoria, t!1ere would he no necessity to pay private onterpr,ise. T'hat IS why ·r am such taxatiOn. opposing this Bill. Mr. PEASE: Let him go. The SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. KERR: That is typical of the hon. Mr. KERR: I am showing whv I am member. He is like the Trades Hall with opposing this Bill, and I have evei·y right their books full of members. Th~' hon. to do that. member wa':lts an absolute monopoly of this State for himself and his friends. The SPEAKER: Order~ I am the judge of that. [Mr. Kerr. Gift Duty Bill. [9 NOVEMBER.] Gift Duty Bill. 1691 Mr. KERR: Y oo; I know that. Mr. KERR : If the hon. gent.Jeman is Mr. COLLINS: You are getting very going to give me his business, I know it is \rnpertinent. so large that it will help me considerably. (Laughter.) I want the Government to Mr. KERR: I think it is rather pertinent under,tand that the taxation is not. only to the Bill, and not impertinent. being made on the individual ''cho happens The SPEAKER : Order ! to have money, but it .is hitting at the capital which he owns and which is so much . Mr. K~R~: There is another principle required for the development >1nd prosperit.y m the B1ll m regard to deductions. If an of Queensland. wstrument carries a liability such as a mort gage or an annuity, the gift duty must be Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): For quite a paid on the htll v:alue of the property. long time now we have had legislation of That IS very unJust mdeed. If a man with various kinds introduced into this Chamber, property worth £2,000 transfers it as a o-ift some of which I will designate as freakish, to another pe;son, 3;nd retains in the pro· some as fantastic, and some as obnoxious. perty an annmty whwh may take the whole I think the measure we are discussing this of the profits from that investment gift morning possesses the whole three charac duty has still to be paid on the full ~aluc terist.ics mentioned, and more especially the That man may not have a pennv of loos~ last. It is an intricate Bill and difficult to money in. the world, yet because the pro understand. The 'Treasurer told the House perty-whwh may be unrealisable to a that it was brought in for the purpose of certain extent-is transferred, that man has getting at. those people who desire to evade to pay gift duty as donor on the whole their legal responsibilities in regard to cer ,-a!ue of .the. transaction, although he retains ta,in duties and payments to the Crown; but ~n an_n~nty m the property. It is ,a doublo that is not the primary object of the Bill. unposJtion, and, further, the donee in the The idea at the back of the Treasurer's tt:ue sense would receive nothing by the mind is revenue, and revenue only, and he gift. and later on, when he does receive •ees in this particular class of legislation a, ~omcthing by it, stamp duty will be chance of drawing in a few thousand pounds Imposed. more to increase the revenue vv hi eh is so Then, if a property is worth £2,000, and •eriously needed at the present time. has a mortgage of £1,000 on it and the It is difficult to understand-though reallv, whole thing is made a gift, the' mortgage it i~ not difficult to understand when ~ne goes of. £1,000 also car·ries gift duty. That is into the question thoroughly-how it is that UnJUSt. it is uecessary for the GovernmPnt to intro I want to compliment the officer who is duce legislation of this nature. Our revenues re~ponsible. for ~hir;king out these things. ha vc been buova nt for some vears. Thov Let me give this mstance. If a man in haw shown no 'sign of falling 'away in an)· 1926 makE's a gift of £1,000, he pavs at the clircction. If, then, the cau"e is not to be rate of 3 per cent. If he gives" another found in a declining reyenuc, we can only £2,000 five years hence, he will be taxed look for it in increasing expenditure. not ~:mly. on tl:e £2,000 he givos in 1931, 'VV!wn speaking on the resolution, I said but 1t will be made retrospective, and he that bad debts came within the scope of the will pay an additional 2 per cent. on the proposed Bill. \Vhen I a"ke.cJ the question £1.000 he gaye in 1926. Is that right? Is this morning, the Treasurer did not seem l·l that retrospective for only four months? he too definit-e about the mattPr. but replied It is retrospective for an unlimited pcriod that h~ thought some way might be found rctrOS'llective to a period before ~omo pcoplo out of that po"ition if it existed. It exists who arc concerned were born. A man who all right. There is no shadow of a do_ubt makes a gift in 1926 pays 3 per cent; if he about that. and some method needs to be gives another £1,000 in 1930, he pays 5 per devised to avoid that particularly obnoxious cent. on the whole sum, and if he gives result. vVhen a person or a firm S•ends in another £3,000 ten years after that, he will returns for income ta.x purposes, the Commis· have to pay a higher rate of duty on the sioner requires the inclusion of a list of bad whole of the gift, because a higher dutv is debts, with the names of the debtors, the paid on the accumulated amount of , the rea.,ons given for regar-ding them as bD.d gifts. Apparently, in course of time if a debts, and the amounts. What more is man lives long enough, the gift duty will required in this matter than the statement be larger than the gift itself. which the individual returns when sending i>O The TREASURER: How do you make that his income tax papers? The Treasur.er said out? Who is your actuary? He will do thnt th~re was similar legislation in New me. (Laughter.) Zealand, but that is not so, because, so far as I am able to find out, nothing of nearly so Mr. KER.R: The last gift ten years hence obnoxious a nature is embodied in their Ad. may he £1.0JO, and, if he lives till 1940, The gift duties collected by the New Zealand the ac~umulations of those gifts from 1926 Goyernment are embodied in what is called may then run into £1,000 quite easily, the Death Duties Act, and under an amend· because the gifts m a de ovPr that period are mrnt introduced on 22nd August, 1923, tho added together and the hig-hest rate of duty following provisions are made :- applies. That is very unfoir. One has to " Notwithstanding anything to the cDn realise that t.he action of the Government in trary in the principal Act, no gift dutv introducing thi~ measure is solelv actuated shall be payable in respect of any of the by £ s. d., and is not for the benefit of the following matters, namely:- State. (a) The creation of any charitable trust The TREASURER : Do you make up income in New Zealand, or the gift of any tax returns? property in aid of any such charitable Mr. KERR: Y cs. trust; The TREASl'RER: I will give you my busi (b) Contributions by an employer to a ness in future. (Laughter.) fund established for the purpose of JYir. Taylor.] 1692 Gift Duty Bill. [ASSEl'IIBLY.] G~ft Duty Bill. prm·iding retiring allowances or cent. on gifts to the value of over £10,000. pensions for his employees or any Immediately these duties ('ame into opera class or classes of his employees ; tion from 1920 the amount of gift duty increased. I have stated before that the (c) Payments made by an employer to Treasurer is looking only to the present, an employee on the retirement of that and his one great desire is to secure a employee from the service of the employer, and any gratuity or bonus favourable balance-sheet. He fails to look paid by an employer in recognition ahead as a careful and. prudent custodian of special or fait-hful services ren of the funds of Queensland should do, and ask himself the question as to what effect dered, if- leg-islation of this nature is going to have (i.) The employer is an incorporated on the futuro of the State. public company; or Mr. MAXWELL : His motto is " Sufficient (ii.) The employer is an incorporated nnto the clay is the evil thereof." pri.-ate company, and the Commi"ioner i. satisfied that the employee is not Mr. TAYLOR: It is rather foolish to look connected by ties of blood or marriage at matters in that way. For a great many with any director of such pri,-atc com :'ears we haYe been complaining of the fact pany; or that our industries have not expanded. an& (iii.) The employer is an unincor we have been anxious to understand the porated firm or an individual and the cause for failure in this direction. \Ve on Commissioner is satisfied that th<' this side and thousands of people throughout employee is not connected by ties of the Commonwealth attribute our failure to blood or marriage with his employer the excessive taxation operating in Queens or any of his employers." land. There is no denying the fact that we are the most heavily taxed people in the The paragraph to which I wish to draw Commonwealth at the present time; and how special att-ention, since it does not appear in are we to expand as a State and make that this Bill, is- progre" which we all desire if we continue ,. (rl) The discharge of any debt owing 1 he introduction of such burdensome taxation bv a debt •mch a thing by this Bill. We are building upon the mercy of the donee in order to eke up an army of officials, who, to my mind, out his existence. Naturally people fear are petty nabobs whose word is law, an:J., doing that sort of thing to-day, and the if one has a grievance against the Commis amount of •revenue that we would be losing sioner of Stamp Duties, he has no redress by declining to make the measure retro unless he takes him to court. There is no spective would be infinitesimal. That being justification for such a position. Can t·he so, we should do the greatest good for the law not be interpreted without the extreme greatest number, and rather than pass this cost of an action at law? I suggested on a legislation we should make some provision previous measure that a simpler method whereby the bona f1de donor who gives his would be t.o have a board of appeal con property away in good faith shall be free sisting of the Commissioner, the Under from taxation. It is possible for the legal Secretary to the Treasurer, and so on, to advise•rs of the Governinent so to frame the· which the taxpayer could appeal, instead lawr, as to prevent those who should pay of being forced into the courts to obtain taxes from evading taxation, and to free justice. the bona fide donor from taxation of this If you take the Commissioner to court, it sort. is going to cost you at least £25, and tax L2.30 p.m.] payers, unless they arc obdurate and stiff Another fact that struck me is that the· necked, would rather pay up than appeal rates that the Government intend to impos~ against the decision of the Commissioner. under this Bill are higher than the rates fixed The Commissioner should not be allowed under the Succession and Probate Duties Act. to take up the attitude that that is the law, \Yhen the Bill reaches the Committee stage, and, if you dispute the decision, you must I hope that the Treasurer will reduce the· take him to court. That is contrary to our rates so that they will not be greater than idea of ordinaTy British justice. the rates under that Act. I object to the Bill being made retro This is simply an attempt the Government spective. We know that it is the policy of are making to wring a few more pounds oui; the Government to antedate their measures of the people, despite their asseveratio1o.s to so that they can scoop in some revenue that the contrary. They say that they are ende~ they might lose by the measure coming vouring to correct an >1nomaly, but then into force on the day on which it receives idea is to extract more taxation from the assent. This morning the Treasurer stated community. This ne-w form of taxation, in that the renson for antedating the Bill to common with other taxation Bills which have 1st July last wa,, because it was on that been introduced, are intended to help the date that it was announced that the Bill Government to meet the deficit which they would be introduced. I do not know fear on this year's transactions. \-V hen you whether the public were aware on that date consider that last year the deficit was over that such a Bill would be introduced. I £500,000 sterling, and we know the Trea must confess that I did not know. In order surer has alr·eady stated that the deficit this that they may secure a few paltry shiTiings year will be at least £150,000, judging by the from some taxpayer who has made a gift of present progress of expenditure we can over £1,000, they make the Bill retrospec assume that the deficit will be at least as tive. It should be sufficient for the purposes n1uch a.s last year. of the Government to date the Bill from the date of the Royal Assent, and take a chance The whole of the actions of the Govern with \Yhat they might lose. There is too ment remind me of the story I was told \\'hen much ·retrospectivity with our legislation to a little boy of Mrs. Partington endeavouring day. It is generally recognised in more to sweep back the waves with a broom. The civilised countries than Queensland, where GoYcrnn1ent, by pin-pricking, harassing legis they have more lib1re not warped. that rising tide of deficits \Yhich threaten to over retrosl)ectivity is wrong. In the United "' helm the country. States' of America, where you might expect :Mr. G. P. BARNES (TVarwick): I do 1eot extreme legislation to be passed, because like this Bill, and I wonder why any one in party feeling runs very high. and the this House approves of it. I have doubts in "cuts " have less chance than the Opposi my mind as to how the Treasurer, more than tion in Queensland of securing any bcnef1ts, any other person occupying a high position and where you might expect rdrospective in the administrative affairs of this land, can legislation, it is absolutely ultra vires of appro.-e .of it. vVe have to remember that the Constitution. I think we should take a only a few short weeks ago that hon. gentle leaf out of the book of other countries with man stressed an important fact-namely, that respect to rctrospectivity. For the good it is not the things of the past which matter name of Queensland the Treasurer should or that we need to cry over; it is the things see that the measure is not made retrospec of the futuro that count. It is because this tive, even though it might mean running a Bill will have rather a disastrous effect upon risk of losing a few paltry pounds in taxa our future that I desire to say a few words. tion. The Treasurer sta tee! that he did not For various reasons this Bill will have a very wish to inflict any hardship upon bona fide serious influence upon our life. That opinion donors, but I wish to point out that the has been expressed pretty fully by more than object of the Bill is to attack those people one hen. member on this side of the House. who, practically on the brink of the grave, No Bill with which we have ha.d t{) deal for give away their estates to their families and many years past is going to have more inf!u. i·elativos. How often does it occur that a once in effectively diverting money from and person, in order to help his successors, gives transferring it from the State-and we want away his estate to his family? How many it badly enough, for we are hungering for i~. wch cases have occurred in Queensland? Pending a realisation and a settleme~t of his There may have been a few, but we know affairs is it likely that a person w1ll allow that in many of the cases it is done to save the family expense; and in a great number his mdney to remain in this land? He would of cases the donor has to throw himself be an arr,ant fool if he did. He could not do Mr. G. P. Barnes.] 1696 Gift Duty Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] G1jt Duty Bill. otherwioe than alter his domicil·e; and that The Treasurer also referred to l·he matter he will do, with the result that Queensla.m! of debts, mortgages, and things of that will be the sufferer. For many years it hos kind. I cannot imagine the introduction been our complaint that many men who mako of a clause in a Bill of this kind that would a great deal of money in Queensland migrate lead to the construction that, when a debt to the South, particularly Victoria, and there becomes bad, it becomes a gift. Some hon. reside, carrying with them a good deal of members, the other evening, dwelt upon the their money. They cannot take all their scarifying influence of things, and surely property with them, but they take ,., ith them this Bill is going in that direction to an a good deal of their loose cash. This Bill alarming extent·. One cannot imagine how will aggravate that condition of things, ancj it is going to be carried out. I suppose the in the future we shall filld more and more introduction of this Bill largely has to do loose cash taken out of the State to other with such a ea ·e as Pm·oell's, in regard to States, where people are r:ot likely to bo which judgment was delivered in the involved in the administration of such a Supreme Court only last week. If this Bill measure as this. had been in operation, cert-ainly .Mr. Purcell When moving the second reading of the would have been saved a lot of trouble in Dill this morning, the Treasurer stressed the transferring his business from one company matter of debts, covered by paragraph (d) of to another. That case shows that the Federal clause 2, and in particular he str·essod the Commissioner of Taxes seized the oppor condition of things attaching to many people, tunitv to make a claim of some £32,000, forming companies, and the wonderful ad van. altho~1gh the Purcell family made nothing tage such a course off·ered in the distribu out. of the transaction. They were sirnp!3· tion of the possessions of a man of affairs; transferring their business from one com such a course worlmd not only economically pany to another; yet this demand was made but advantageously, and that it enabled many upon them. Although the case failed last individuals who had reached the evening of week, it would succeed under this legisla· their days to have their affairs wisely adminis tion. It is interesting to not·e the remarks tered. This Bill will prevent that sort oi of the Chief Justice in this connection, as thing being carried out, and in preventing they indicate what is likoly to happen in enterprise of that nature the Treasurer is connection with the levying of gift duties placing his foot on development. When a undor this Bill. The report reads- ooncer" has arrived at a certam degree of " His Honour the Chief Justice (Hon. prosperity, the idea is to make it more pros J. \V. I3lair) gave his reserved decision perous-probably to form it into a limited in the Purcell taxation appeals. liability company with additional capital to enablo it to embark upon other avenues of " Earlier this year Thomas Pm·ce!l, trade. Does the hon. gentleman think that his wife, Subyna Pm·cell, and his daugh thif:i nle&,~ure will eHuourage companies to ter, l\1ary Purctll, appealed frou1 the develop in that way? A man may have a decision of the Federal Commissioner of small business establishment, and he realises Taxation assessing them as liable to the possibilities ahead if development takes income tax on a transfer of their pastoral place, if a company is formed. Does tho properties, known as Galway Downs, Treasurer think this measure will encourage Manilla, etc., to the Galway Downs that sort of thing? All who have calmly Pastoral Company, Limited. The agree considered this measure will feel that a wet ment for sale was dated 30th September, blanket has be·en oast upon the oommunity. 1920, and in addit.ion to the properties Paragraph (a) of clause 2 reads- covered 16,000 head of cattle and 200 horses. Consideration for the sale was " ' Disposition of property ' means and the allotment to the appellants of 1'77,000 indud<:s- fully paid-np shares in the company of (a) Any conveyance, transfer, assign £1 each. Consideration was apportioned ment, settlement, delivery, pay· as follo\vs :-Pastoral leases, £1.000; ment or other alicne,tion of pro· irn,)rovoments and plant, £15,000; 16,0@ perty'; and, without limiting tho ho~d of catt.lc, £160,000; and 200 hors,_s, meaning of the torn1, oxpre.ssly £1,000. .At the date of the formation inciudes an allotment of shares in of the company, the book value of the a company." assets of the three appellants was shown as £75,575. made up as follows :-Lease That simply mean; that, immediately a man holds, £22,351; improvements and plant. comes to the praiseworthy conclusion that he £1.00'1; 16,000 head of cattle, £51,424; should u ndcrtuko something bigger in !if€, 200 hors0s, £800. According t.o tho he is going to be disturbed by this taxation books thoro was a profit of £108,349. for harbouring good rc.,olutions. His capital is to he considered .a first charge and bxed. " Subsequently the Commissioner \Vill that encourage the development of busi- assc~.::cd thern for income tax on a net 11l~s? If the Treasurer :is Tight in his asser income of £116,099. The taxation against tions that the futuro is the thing that counts, Thomas Purcell amounted to £3,482; he i' doing something diametrically oppoe "cl against J.ivirs. Purcell, £14,325; and to the best interests of the community. I am against J\~iss Purcell, £14,314 18s. 10d. sure that no one can foresee the wide influ· Puree!! himself had been allowed a once that this Bill is going to have in the deduction on account of Stat·e income tax, which he had paid, and which direction I have indicate·d. We have already reduced his Federal tax to the first suffered from various taxation measures mentioned figures." introduced by this Government, and no doubt this Bill is introduced with a dosi'te to fill up Later on the judge gave his decision thus- another gap that ought never to have " His Honour said that the substantial occurred. That is not the fault of the coun qu"tion in the appeals was whether the try, yet the country is going to be further tr ~:nsaction wns a realisation of assets penalised by the introdl!ction of this measure. or a change of investment. As in the [llh. G. P. Barnes. Gift Duty Bill. (9 NOVEMBER.] Gift Duty Bill. 1697 ' Purcell Trust' so it was in the com members did not know it, the people outside pany. Purcell, as managing director, could not know. I know of one case in practicaliy had complete control. There which succession duty was paid quite lately, were no other shareholders than the which illustrates to a considerable extent the appellants apart from nominal shar_e hardship which will take place under the holders. Assets which it was not dis Bill. A widow drew £2,600 from insurance puted were worth £177,000 on 1st July, companies, and £300 of that went to pay 1920, were transferred from the family succession duty. The rest of the money trust to the family company." £1,900 and £400 respectively-'he sent to her two sons and her son-in-law, who have ]<'inally he said- been fighting one of the worst battles we " The transaction was merely a sale have had in Queensland against drought. by a family trust to a family company The sheep of the son-in-law had been re of assets at the true value of those duced to 800, and he had been put to heavy assets at the time of the sale. No expense in feeding them; and now, when the profit had been made out of the trans widow sends the money to her sons and action, and such transaction was merely 11: son-in-law to help them, she is to be mulct realisation of assets, or a change of in gift duty to the extent of £66. I think investment." that retrospective taxation in a case like that The SPEAKER : Order ! The Purcell case causes a most unjustifiable hardship. Some io not connected with this Bill. hon. members may ask, "Why did she not Mr. G. P. BARNES: The point is that !end _it without giving it?" I do not think under this Bill such a transaction would be It fair to use an· argument like that. The trEated as a gift and a levy would be made P_rinciple has been that up to the present time such property was hers to do with as upon it. That is the point I am trying she pleased: hnt the Government come in to make, and it is going· to be a very suddenly and mak0 this taxation retro severe thing in the case of companies making spective. That case is illustrative of the a loos. vV e had, for instance, in the " Bris hardship which will occur. bane Courier " of Monday last a reference to the case of a New Zealand company, in Then we come to the provision which is which a writing- transnrtion irrespective of the charge upon then su-rely, if the individual c.1n prove an it. After all, he is only doing wh>tt he is exactly similar shte of affairs, he should compelled to do. If he was in a position to be enabled to tako advantage of the same Wflit until death took place, in most casos principle, and not bo debarred by a special the death duty would bo less; but he has clause in the Bill limiting his application no choi· ,,~he ~s physically incapable of to tv.'O years ! Th::-~re are t\YO or thrct?: clauses cal'rying on the arduous work involved in making the time allowed for the Commis farming. NcvcrJhclcss, he is charged sioner nerfectly clear and imposing harass dcaJh duty not only for helping to provide ing and hampering conditions on the indi for his family, but also for p•roviding for Yiclnal. There is a clause in the Bill which his wife and himself in their old age. to me oeems to be ve-ry drastic. It reads~ Ono of the best illustrations of the posi " If any gift duty is not paid, the lion cxi ·ling in Queensland to-day as a Commissioner may apply to the Supreme result of this perpetual taxation may well Court m· a judge thereof for an order be found in what I witnessed myself at that a sufficient portion of any property Jondaryan on Saturday morning. When comprised in the gift may be sold to [ got up there the milk was being delivered pay the duty, nob·ithstanding any at the factory. There was one old settler change that may have taken place in the of eighty-two year.s of age who has been Gwnership of the property." there as long as I can remembe-r. Three I do not want to go into details, but this is others whose ages ranged between seventy a principle ,Yhich is absolutely \Yrong. A and Services. Required for 1926-1927. SCI-!EDDLF.. £ £ "The Irr1'gation Act of 1922" . . . . 1,fi00 "The Prickly-Pear Land Act of 10~3 " 100,000 ' \------! 101,500 Premlt r and Chief Secretary';; Dt!partrru.,~t. Sold'"'" Settlement and Repatriation ...... 20,000 DepartmeTt of Public WorL J. Con,truction "?ranch .. 26,07:1 Est.1mating, J>urchasin~, and Co,~tlng Branch 7,187 Buildings ::.:;o,ooo ,______28~,216 The Treasurer. J.oan-.; to T.ocal Bodir 3 J~oans to Ho pital Board' Central Supr :CHills Harboun and T{ivers Marine Department 1,002,674 Department of Public Lands. 'Yire Xetting Resumptiom 'Land Settlement .. Public Bstate Imprcvement Pore. try ...... Irrigation and Water Supply Commission "The Main Roads Acts, 1920 to 1925 _, 811,500 Devartment of 1l1ines. Loans under" The lvlining Machinery Adcances Act of 1906" 6,000 Industrial Undertakings- State Coal Mines , 29,885 1 Jn Aid of Mining .. I •. I 35,885 Railways. --119 5S2 Deneral Establishment-Chief Office -~ Southern Division . . . . 1. 675.959 I Central Division and Mackay Railway .• i 393,284 Northern Division 351,825 General Expenditure .. , 960.000 ------2,500,650 1 ------Total £1 . . 4,815,425 [Mr. Deacon. Government Loan Bill. [9 NoVEMBER.] Government Loan Btll, 1701 We may not spend the whole of the £100.000 Queensland. It is a very formidable figure, set aside for prickly-pear destruction. The and one can recognise the dislocation that total amount for the railways, hon. members would take place if the public works policy will observe, is £2,500,000, or more than stopped and these men found themselves half of our total loan expenditure. Of this upon the labour market. In addition to sum £900,000 is set aside for rolling-stock, the figures I have given, there are many and the balance of the money-outside of men engaged upon work paid for by loan small amounts of £10,000, £20,000, and money who would augment that number of £30.000 on loan works on the internal employees by many hundreds. I have not organisation of the departments-is made up included men engaged on smaller jobs by construction jobs-the Mount Molloy rail within the Railway Department at the way in North Queensland, the Mount Isa Ipswich Railway Workshops paid for out of line, Many Peaks towards Monto, Baralaba loan money, nor have I included men towards Castle Creek, Mundubbera towards engaged by p·rivate employers who have M onto; and in the Southern division the contracts with the department, and whose main expenditure is on the line which we employees necessarily are dependent upon are building under arrangement with the the continuation of public works to keep Commonwealth-that is, the Kyogle to Bris thoso businesses going. One will recognise bane line. from that formidable list how very easy it That, briefly, is the loan policy which is for the arm-chair critio to tell us that we Queensland is facing to-day. It is rather a should go slow· in regard to our public formidable amount, and later on I intend expenditure. to refer at some lcno-th0 to the burden which [3.30 p.m.] is placed upon this State by the fact that '\1r. Jl.fAXWELL: You said that yourself. ~rom :'(' ar to year we arc incurring an mcreasmg loan expenditure upon public The TREASURER: It. is easy to say so. works. I desire to impress upon the House It is easy for me to say so; but it is my -·nd the countr.·1 that it is not possible for Government who have the responsibility of any Government, Liberal or Labour to con saying whether we ~hould or should not go tinue a. big prog~~a1n1nc of public 'aevelop on. \Vhilc I recogmse-as everybody recog ~nrnt without havmg to meet the inevitable nises-that Australia has been spcndmg lo!'n mt.erest bill that comes as a result of that money at too great a rate, I also ~·ecogmse expenditure. the difficulty of cutting off that. pubhc expen l\Ir. RoBERTS: Not unless we have increased diture and facing the economic consequences populatiO!'l.. of doing so, I say again that it IS easy for any of us to s>ty that we should_. no~ be The TREASURER: That is another spending this n1oney; but Australia rs a. matter. That is one of the problems facing country which requires ~evclopment, . ~nd the Stat~s of the Commonwealth at the wo have to tackle the JOb of prov;dmg present bme, and before I sit down I think transport for new districts. There is no I shali be ablo to prove to tho House that way of doing that except by sp~ndmg loan m thJE reg~ll'.d we are actually in a slightly l!l The TREASURER: Land 111 Victoria The SPEAKER: Order! which was formerly used for agricultural The TREASURER : Labour has been in purposes is now being used to grow sheep. of!icc in Victoria, but never in power. Mr. '1\.ir. TAYLOR: That is because it is more Gunn has boon in power in South Australia profitable. for two years sinoe the war, and Sir J am~s l\1itchell for six vears in \Vestcrn Australia 'l'he TREASURER: Land is going out of before l\fr. Collier came into office on the cultivation in Victoria and is being used to last occasion. grow sheep. No one can tell me that land can be as valuable for pastoral purposes as J\1r. RoBERTS: He had a surplus. for agricultural purposes. The SPEAKER: Order ! I ask hon. mem Mr. EDWARDS: Of course it can be. bers to aJlmy the Treasurer to make his speech without interruption. The TREASURER: No person can seri ously mak0 that statement. The real reason The TRK\SlJRER: I will giYe hon. mem is most difficult to fathom. However, I do bc·rs an i·dea of the increase in the public not want to be dra\Yn away on a discussion debts of the various States. the percentage on the matter. I merely mention it to show increa,c of the debt, and the increase per that our troubles are similar to the troubles capita- , , I . Public Debt of the Different Australian States. ) Percentage j Per Capita j Increase in Loan Increase in Loan ------~-·----·---.. ···--·-, Indebtedness I Indebtedness As at i As at , ., o I during 10-Ycar durmg 10-Year I 30 June, 19l:J. i ?;:) .Jutre, 1925. Incre "Svo .Period. reriod. I !, I I --- ~eer.slan Average .. i 71·54 i I am not using these figures as an example other State in the Commonwealth. I think that Queensland is the best State. I am they prove that, if we have been oyer using them to show the fallacy that is abroad borrowing-I have stated openly I beheve that the Labour Government, during their we have been-other Governments have clone ten years of office, have acted in any different likewise. manner in regard to loan expenditure from J\Ir. KERR: You have not taken the the Labour or Liberal or Ton Governments c~pacity to pay into consideration. That in other States of the Commonwealth. As a s0t of figures rneans nothing. matter of fact, our loan expenditure has been :ess, both in the percentage increase The TREASURER: I do not propose to and in the per capita increase. than in any reply to the hon. member's interjection. 1 [Hon. 1V. JYlcCormack. Government Loan Bill. [0 NOVElVlBER.] Government Loan Bill. 1703 listened to him thi.- morning when he marle Mr. KERR: He has to do it to meet com out a Cctse ctS an actuary, and I told hiin at petition. the time that, if he could use figures the way be used thmn this morning, he ought The TREASURER: \Ye are in the same to he making a fortune in fixing up income po.,ition to a lesser degree. iY e build good tcx returns. The table I have given un,wers roads for motor people, who aro (axed for the charge that we have all been borrowing the purpose, and immediately they are bmlt more hcavilv than other States. It also competition take' place. "' e are faced with ansy;crs the charge that Labour Governments having to compete against another form of arc more willing to destroy the credit of transit, and that is taking place in every the country by over-spending than other country of the world. Only a few days ago Go1 ernrnents in office. In so1no regards I had a discussion on this matter with u Queen .J,md has better ascots for the money prominent American manufacturer, and a borro\Yod than, say, Victoria. I do not man who holds a very high position in the want to criticise other States' activities or motor world. I told him our troubles here, their finances; I have not sufficient know~ and he could sr•J them. He lives in Mel hd·:o to do that successfully; but I am not hoarne. He told me that in America the without .ome knowledge and intelligence, and motor truck was beating the r To get along with my comparison, .let me Governments in Australia during the last take the question of the increase in interest ten years- paid on loans by this Government and other State. 1915. 1925. Increase~ Increase. I I ------!----- ' £ £ £ per cent. Queensland .. I 1,975.581 4,617,534 2,641,953 133'7 10,63~,953 6,514,353 ]57'9 New South Wales .. 1' 4,125,600 Victoria .. . . 2,382,904 6,182,420 3.799,516 159'4 South Australia . . 1,207,937 3,710,512 2,502,575 207'2 West Australia .. i 1,287,860 2,922.254 1,634.394 126'9 Tasmania .. l 456,0g9 1,171,177 715,078 156'8 ------ ChargEw, have been made against the Labour Mr. ROBERTS: Quote the freights and Government that their credit is not so good farrs. as the credit of Governments in other States, The TREASURER: The hon. gentleman's but what has been the increase in the interest mind is travelling along a line of irrele percentages paid by the various Sta tcs ? We vancy. He introduces something that ha% were told that we were not able to borrow nothing whatever to do with the argument money as readily as the other States-that, at all. generally speaking, we were held up at the Mr. KERR: Not with your particu'arly point of the bayonet by money-lenders. Our one-sided argument. figures do not show that. As a matter of fact, we come out very favourably. The TREASURER: Surely the hon. Mr. M:AXWELL: The Labour pc.per said that gentleman does not wish me, when dealing you gave in to the money-lenders. with an important rmbject like th1s, to branch off and deal with every i·rrelevant The TREASURER: The percentage in interjection! If I were to do that, I _would creases in the amount of interest paid as have to see first that he was not m the between 1915, before Labour came into House. power in Queensland, and 1925 are- Mr. KERR: I am not interrupting you Per cent. very much. Queensland 133.7 The SPEAKER: Order ! I must ask the New i:;outh Wales 157.9 hon. member to cease his interjections. Victoria 159.4 South Australia 207.2 The TREASUREH: These figures sh~w Western Australia 126.9 the av0rage interest rate payable in the dif Tas1nania 156.8 ferent States- :Mr. KERR: That is all to your disadvan tage. 1915. I 192-5. -- Per cent. Per c::_ The THEASURER: Those figures show I that our credit has not altered materially ------. ---~-£-8. a.-~~- d. under I"iberal m· Labour Governments. Queensland . . . . 3 16 2 4 15 , 9 The point I am making is that the state New South Wales 1 3 14 ! 4 18 ,o ment continuallv made in this House-it is Victoria 3 12 o 1 4 J 6 3 not made so ~mch by the press, because South Australia 3 14 0 · 4 19 ~ they know the damaging effect of such use West Australia 1 3 12 7 4 10 o loss charges-that our legislation has made Tasmania \ 3 15 2 4 13 0 the cost of securing money· for Queensland ! greater than the cost in any other State is not in accordance with fact. [4 p.m.] ·With the exception of a very short term, . a Mr. KERR: You paid more for your con Torv Government has been in power m version loan than any other country in the Victoria, while a Labour Goyc_rnmc:'t has world. been in charge of the admmistra t1?n m The TREASURER: It is the essence of Queensland during the whole of that hmc. those figures that counts, and not merely Mr. G. P. BARNES: The volume of borrow the saying of something. I intend to quote ing brings about the results in Tasmania the average interest rate payable by the and \V estern Australia. different States, and I have such a good case that I think I shall be forgiven for The TREASURER: The volume of going over the matter. The average interest borrowing is against us because of those rate payable by Queensland in 1915 was huge conversions. I have been successful £3 16s. 2d., and in 1925 the interest rate, in making this point: The charg~ that including the interest on the conversion Queensland i~ not in a similar. positron to loans of which we have heard so much, was other States IS a charge that w11l n~t bear £4 15s. 9d. That is a tremendous increase. investigation. It is a charge that IS con 1 desire to impress upon the House that in tinually made in this House. The statement the figures I am quoting there is a lot of was made this morning that our taxa ground for thought, not only by Queens tion would render it impossible to obtain land but by all States of the Common money at a reasonable rate of interest. wealth, a,s to why it costs more to govern Mr. G. P. BARNES: When higher rates of to-day that it did in past years, when indus interest prevailed you went on the market trial undertakings and railways were built, and borrowed excessive amounts. when the average interest rate was £3 16s. 2d. per cent., and when wages and general The TREASURER: We must accept the costs were lower. general average. Unfortunately we hacl [Hon. W. McCormack. Government Loan Bill, (9 NOVEMBER.] Govm·nment Loan Bill. 1705 £25,000,000 of ~onversion loans with only factorily. No doubt, if we could get all the twelve months between the conversions-a States of the Commonwealth into the Loan Yery wrong and difficult position to find Council, the Council would be able gradually ourselves in. Everyone admits that. 1 .and without any economic dislocation to cur admit that Mr. Denham, who was then tail our loan expendit.ure so that we would Premier, thought he was doing a good not have so many of our population depend thing. No one could foresee the war. ing on the spending of borrowed money. Mr. Denham thought it would be advan tageous to lump these loans into a short Mr. SrzER: Why does the standing out of dated period which would enable us to one State make any difference? obtain a much lower rate of interest for the The TREASURER: It is like one publican £25,000,000. He did not know that the who sells beer for 3d. making all the other war would br0ak out. We now find ourselves publicans sell for 3d. It is competition in a difficult position, quite outside the 1hat does it. Personally I cannot under difficulties created by the Land Act, because stand why New South Wales is not a member we paid no more for our money than any of the Council. In the open market the other State in the Commonwealth, despite lender wants the best he can get. He sets 'he hold-up. We actually obtained cheaper one State against the other. The origin of money in America than if there had been the Loan Council was due entilely to the no dispute with the money-lenders in England. money-lender setting one State against Mr. ELPHINSTONE : Provided the exchanges another, charging 5~ per cent., then 6 per are favourable when we pay it back. cent., and then, when another State came along, 6~ per cent., and so on. We found The TREASURER: That is something ourselves completely in the hands of the which may happen in the future. The hon. money-lender-the broker. The Loan Council member knows that the flotation of our was formed so that we could go on the loan in America 'yas a very fine thing for market as one borrower without competition Queensland. with each other, and without making it says there has been any stock issued by the the press, what we arc doing to mc8t the Queensland Government at a higher rate of difficult situation? One has only to inres· u,terc~t than that fixed by the Loan Council. t.igatc the financial position to realise that Mr. TAYLOR: Are the sales over the counter the big;,cst drain upon our rosourc0' to-day deducted from the amount alloc,ated by the is the interest bill. The retrenchment of Loan Council ? salariQs in the public service by 10 per cent. would not save us very much. I do The TREASURER: Each Statg of the not know whether hon. merr1bers have con· Commonwealth sells over the counter in the sidcrcd this phase of the question, but I ordinary course of business between the loam, ban>. A retrenchment of wages would not an-d. when the Commonwealth go on the make nearly the difference that the increase marke.t for £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, there is in the interest bill makes. an allocation to each of the States. Each State then deducts from the amonnt coming Mr. KERR: If ven take the earnings from from the central authority the amount col the loan works i"n QueenslanJ as comp~red lected in over-the-counter sales. with those in the other States your earmnl;l"s are the lowest. That is the whole pomt m J\1r. ELPHINSTONE: Have you freedom to the debate. arrange loans in London? The TREASliHER: I am not going to 'fhe TREASFRER: We have freedom to aro·ue that 'fhe claim is made that we raise the amount that we agree upon with sh~uld eco~omisc, and we arc urged to _do the Commonwealth-nothing more and noth it. I have frequently asked people to pomt ing less. Some of the States having more out a wa:· in which this economy could be indebtedness in London than in Australia effected. r know that, if we cut wages-: b01·row more heavily in London to save and that effects very little economy-It exchange. \Ve retain the interest-the caus<>s great disorganisation, and in the la~t amount received in income tax-here m economic result it is doubtful whether It Australia and spend it as loan money, and accomplishrs the purpose we set out to we pay the inte,cst· with the credit that has accomplish. The other great charge upon accumulated in London by reason of the loan. our revenue is the interest bill of over ::i1r. KELSO: You savo exchange? "£+.000,000 a year, which is as much as we are spending every year on public works. The TREASURER: Yes. The difficultv is that much of that money Mr. TAYLOR: Renewals are entirely in your is spent in b'uilding railway lines that could hands? not pmsibly pay, no r;>attor. how we deal Tho TREASURER: Renewals arc the mb with them. 'rhat is tnc pomt I want to ject matter of arrangement, too. Everything m. ke, as I mentioned in the earlier part of is arranged so that we shall not be competing my speech. .\ line is built from A to B. against each other on the loan market. The for instance and there a•ro three trams a original conception of the Loan Council was week runni,;r;-. The capital cost of the line to prevent competition between the States in runs into tens of thousands of pounds. Australia. The Commonwealth itself was There are rnany fanning lines in the dis~ faced with the conversion of its immense war trict of the hon. member for Burnett-he loans. Just imagine what it would have can read about them in the report of the meant to the Commonwealth if the States Con1n1i:: _,1oncr for Railways. It does not were competing with one another on the twitter what "·e do with those lines-if we Australian market! On ono occasion it was made the eng·ine-drivers, firemen, and found that ono State, on the eve of the guards work for £1 a week, the lines would Commonwealth loan of £67,000,000, had prac not pay v m·king expf'nses, let _alone pay tically made arrangements to pay 6~ per cent. interest on the cost of constructiOn. That for money. Imagine what that would have is the problem which is facing the Govern· meant io the Commonwealth ! One per cent. ment. If we close the lines we shall lose more! If they had floated that loan of the traffic earnings; if we pull them up, we £2,000,000 in Melbourne at 6~ per cent., the slut!! get th" rails ; but :we ha v_e interest to Commonwealth would have had to face a pa;· on the money SJ?ent m making the road bed. \Vo may contmue to run three trams charge of 6~ per cent. on its £67,000,000 loan. All s·ections of the community have a direct a week in competition with motor trucks interest in this central control--one borrow and passenger 'buses, and, in addition to ing authority-which I hope eventually will the interest, loso money on the actual work develop into one control of all our loans. in"' cxoenses. If anyone can tell me how th~t p;oblem can be solved, they can show I do not suggest that we should have unifi us how to solve ono of our greatest difficul cation, but I do believe that sooner or later ties. The main through linos are not losing the Commonwealth and the States will be a grcot amount of money. compelled to c11rtail loan expenditure. Everything points in that direction, and so Mr. EDWARDS; Be~ wse they largely far as we are concerned, we are not spending trench on the earnings of the branch Iincs. any more money than we can help. We are The TRBASURER: I know that. Th well under the allocation allowed us by the Leade1· of the Opposition knows tha~ in the Loan Council. Were it not for the fact that Toowoomba district, and also at Kmgaro.-:-. we have to face a very difficult position in they are running motor traffic by road in the internal organisation of the railways in competition with the railway. regard to rolling-stock. in r.egard to engines, and in regard to the strengthening of lines, An OPPOSITION MEMBER: Right along to there would have been a considerable reduc Maryborough. tion in the loan expenditur·e of Queensland The TREASURER: The point is this: this y·ear, because we have been faced during 'l'he people demand that trains shall be the last two or three years with a tremendous run on the railways, even if only half the interest bill. people are travelling on them. They say that We are being asked from time to time, thev want so many trains a week. The both by hon. members of this House and by motor 'bus is taking the valuable traffic; [Hon. W. McCorrnaclc. Governmrnt Loan Bill. (9 NOVEMBER.] Government Loan Bill. 1707 the motor lorry is taking the high-priced can got to Brisbane on a season ticket for article; and the poor old railway is left 2c or 3s. a week less th"n if you go by with a half-load of passengers and only the wotor 'bus, but the individual, studying his unprofituhle goods to carry. ni.Yll pcr;:.onal con;,cenicnce and finding th~: 'bu,, passing hiR door and having that \YE'll :ur. SIZER: Don't you think it would be Lnown tired feeling from ·which we aJl snffcr. h•tter if some of those branch lines were doe' not mind paying an extra 2s. or 3s. converted into main roads? a week because of the convenience. But The TREASURER: That is under con look at the result to the Railway Depart Bideratioll. Neceesity will compel us to face I11ent-a costly railway s~,-sten1 constructed the situation. The idea that we can moot on land resumed at high prices, but never the railw>tv deficit by cutting wages or put theless a svstcm of railwav transport which ting iu 1nOrc efficient machinery is an illu· ;, necessary, and the pe-;,ple of vVynnum SIOTI. c'xpect us to run as many trains a day us ;,ve used to rnn even thoug·h onlv half of those Mr. BRAND: We never suggPotcd that. people use them. " The TRE_\SURER: It does not matter Mr. SrzER: Since you increased the rate,; how much cflicioncy is increased, the problem and fares by 10 per cent. you have lost -till remains. £1,000 on the line from Bald Hills. An OPPOSITION r,IEMBER: Efficiency helps. The TREASURER: That may be so in The TREASURER: It helps, but it will w·ne particular case, which only shows how not eolvc the problem. I have taken half complex the prob1 em is for the people who a dozen lines in country districts and found hr.ve control of transport. This is one of out from the Railway Department exactly the great problems that make the interest the cost of running them and the interest bill a burden. If the railways would only charged on the upkeep of the lines. . I pay some of their interest charges, and if actually m..tdo a proposition on paper. m the branch lines would onl~, can,- a propor which the railway men worked for nothmg, tion of their interco,t costs, everything would and even then thoro was a tremendous loss. be easy; but, owillg to these altered con How could you solve the problem by making ditions, \Ve have a big t.ransport system those men work forty-eig'ht hours a week on \Yhich a l~ll'gE~ a~nonnt of rnoney has been instead of forty-four when, if they worked Pxpel~dcd that is being cut to smithereens for ::ou for nothing, it would not make the by another transport s:yst01n. Can the proble,.;.l bo solYed by preventing the con raihvays pay~ d ,·uction of roads? I do not believe in such Mr. CORSER: That IS your trouble-not poncy. It i~ \vrcng. \Ye rnust Gnd other ours. mean', The tramway people will have to The TREASURER: I know it is. I am faf'c~ it) and every o\vner of rail traction tdling the House and, through the House, 1 \vill have to face the problmn. It is no use am trying to convoy to the people who co.unt nttenrpti,-g- io prohibit tlu~ use of our roads in th o country the difficulty of the positiOn, by ,. motor transport s0-st.em; but I believe because it is a problem which, if we do that the owners of motor v,,hicles should not wh-o it, will bring financial disaster, be made to urry their fair share of the and in considering the method of meeting cost of the upkeep of those roads. To it >Ye may be able to find out the proper prevent then1 from using those roads is course to follow. You know, Mr. Speaker, tantamount to forcing back the hands of tho competition of road transport with the clock. the railwa,' between here and Ipswich. \Vhcthcr the \ictorian Government are I know what is taking place in my doing. the right thing is a very donbtfnl own district between Cairns and Gordon questiOn. lYlr. Clapp is running a motor vale. I know people who prefer to take a transport system in competition with his motor 'bus from the picture show back own railwavo. It has been said that he is to their farms-into their own back yards out to smash the road, and that he is giving -although they have to pay double ihe them a taste of their own medicine. If a railwa': fare of 2s. or 2s. 6d. The same Government construct railway lines, and then applies to goods traffic. A merchant takes alongside construct concrete roads, and goods out of his store in the city and runs enter into competition with that railway, it to the storeroom on the farm. If he serious loss mnst eventuate. That may not sends it bv rail it has to be carted from the be a sonnd method, bnt Mr. Clapp is doing st.ore to the railway station, loaded on to it. I-Ie is running 'bnses between Geolong the train, taken to its destination, unloaded and Melbourne, and I wonld not care to to a cart or oar, which takes it to the same tmvol in them at the rate at which thev storeroom. A man may get a transfer from travel. They do the journey in two hours. une place to another. He does not mind He is running ovoryhody else off the road. paying a couple of shillings extra, becanse and incidentally running his own trains off it matter'+ little to him with his 2 tom, but the line. That policy does not seem to be a it matters everything to the Secretary for right. one. He may have an object in view. Railways ai1d his department. Again, the I think I understand his object, and I hope City Council in Brisbane is building a good he succeeds. road to Sandgate and another to Wynnum. Mr. KETIR: He is a pretty determined What is going to happen to our Sandgate type of eh a p. and \Vynnnm railways? The peoplo will use tho motor 'buses. I point this out be The TREASL:RER : He is a determined cause it seems to me that it is a problem in chap. It seems wrong to expect us to rnn economics which does not strike the public convenient trains along lines where people as a difficultv which Governments cannot will pa troniso the motor 'bus service. In surmount-thO:t is, the right of the indi the future we shall have to leave it to either vidual to use the means of transport the one or the other. The hon. member for which he chooses. It may bo that by walk Murrumba desires us to build a railway line ing to tho railway station at Wynnum you to Redcliffe, but he knows in his own heart Hon. W. McConnack.] 1708 Government Loan Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Government Loan Bill. that, if we were to construct that line, the they are much interested. That is a matter of motor 'buses would make the railway arrangement., and they are going to investi unprofitable. They have a road. gate that scheme thoroughly before finupy Mr. WARREN: I did not suggest that. I deciding. All these matters have to do with suggested that a road should be constructed. the question of the welfare of the State and the public works policy, which are The TREASURER: The hon. member has inseparably bound up in our Loan Estimates been on several deputations asking for the from year to year. I have much pleasure in construction of a 1·ailway line. As a declara n1oving- tion of future policy, I think we shall have " That the Bill be now read a second to give serious consideration to the con time." struction of good roads in new districts, allowing people to use motor traffic if they GOVERNMENT WlE1lBERS : Hear, hear! wish, and not build railway lines to compete At 4.33 p.m., against the good roads built in that district. Mr. F. A. CooPER (Bremer), one of the w· e 3hould build good roads-roads that can panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the carry good loads-and allow the people to Speaker in the chair. solve their own problem of transport per medium of motor vehicles. vVe shall cer Mr. ELPHINSTONE (Oxley): I am sorry tainly ha1·c to pay the interest on the that the Leader of the Opposition has been money expended in the construction of the suddenly called out of the House, because he roads, but upon the public themselves will intended replying to the very interesting fall the responsibility of making good any speerh which tho Treasurer has JUSt rna·de, loss in running the transport system. If I but I shall cndeaml!r to keep the debate proposed such an idea to the hon. member going until he returns. Every hon. memb~r for Burnett, he would straight away tell me in this House, apart altogether from his that the Government promised the construc political Yiews. has been very much interested tion of a railway line in his district. in the speech which has just come from the Mr. CosTELLO: You also promised the Treasurer. It has be.en a contribution which construction of a line in the Carnarvon is attnctivc and :-atisfactory at this critical electorate. stage in the history of Queensland, and I ven ture to suggest that a debate will follow The TREASURER: The hon. member for ,, hich will be helpful to all who have the Carnarvon deiires a railway without any intere t of this State at heart. regard whatever as to who finally is to pay The Treasurer touched on several in1portant the capital cost of that line. We shall have points which call for very serious comment. to review the whole question of our capital In the first placG, the one great issue regard expenditur<', and be guided by the inYestiga ing finance in Qt;·Oensland has. referenc?. to tions in other countries. Investigations are our raihr ,ly system. VV e are rn a posrt1on being n1ad~ in ether countries, and in a few to-dav in which the railways arc rr·ally con months information will be available as to t.rollii1g the situation, for they have accounted the advisability of building first-class roads for considerably more than 50 per cent. of and developing our country districts by a our loan indcbtednees. Further than that, road system of transport instead of by a out of the £4.815,000 which is to be spent this railway system of transport. That has much v{'ar no less than £2 500 000 is to be spent on to commend it. The only difficult-, in Aus iho 'railwa ,,. system.' B~J-ring in mind the tralia ls, unfortunately, that we ~have not rcuLtrks w.hich have fallen frotn the Trr:t hecn able to lo:-'ato tho necr"l;::try engine fuel. wrcr, it is difficult to see what justification It is unfortnna10 t~;at no oil hrts so far been th2ro is for continuing an expenditure on found iu Am,ralia. If \ve could obtain I' 1ilways of £2,500,000 this year from loan fuel at tlcc price it is retailed at in rnonc v. As far as we can see, the railways California to-d<'ly, I \Yould have no hesitation of Qu'Censlc.nd are more or less doomed unless in 1nakiug it a question of Governn1ent some vital altnations arc made. The policy that \VC fhould b•1ild roads instead Trc 1surer has not overstated the case when of railwa-·e. I b~Iiovo that it would be he has pointed out that the. competition. of more profitable. and, from the point of motor transport is a real hve compet1t10n, view of convenience and social intercourse and it is something more than can be passed among the people in the country districts, it oyer merely by criticism, . We saw th~t would bo advantageous. exemplified by the Comm1sswner for Rml I have covered a great deal of ground, \Yavs making a special trip to Ipswich in a somewhat wide of the intention of the BilL motor·car instead of by his own railway, and suo·gestin" to the commercial heads there that Mr. EDWARDS: You forgot about it. th~v shocld support their local undertaking [4.30 p.m.] in the rail'•'ays and also indirectly the rail \Ya>" workshop which keeps them going. But The TREASURER: I did not. The hon. the"se g-entlem~n very r{'adily repli.c<;J that i!l member, as usual, has resorted to his insult those days of inton,se, keen competitiOn senti ing interjections, and wonders why he receives ment has no room, and they have to confine back answers. their attention to that method of transport Mr. EDWARDS: I wi'll take them alL which gives them the greatest efficiency and (Laughter.) the greatest economy. The TREASURER: I believe that on theso There is one very important point in matters I have opened up a line of thought regard to this transpm:t between citi~s such that deals with the real difficulties ahead. as Brisbane and Ipswwh, and that 1s that Mr. KELSO: Have you thought about the with railway transport we have to pay migration problem? cartage horn one's establishment to the railway, and the cost of cartage at. the The TREASURER: The Commonwealth present time is prohibitive. There IS a Migration Commission have under considera minimum charge which is out of all tion the Da"·son Valley scheme, in which proportion to the value received. Apart [Hon. W. McCormack. Government Loan Bill, [9 ~OVE}IBER.] Government Loan Bill. 1709 q]together from that, even if the mini there should be an increase in the number mum charge does not apply, the cost of heads that have to bear the burden. of cart.age is tremendous. "'vV e are told Another issue on which I shall touch that the reason why these charges are made directly, if I am allowed, is the effect which is that so much time is lost in disposing of this great building-up of an immense finan· the articles at their destination, so far as cial obligation, has upon the population, the carter is concerned-meaning the receiv when It Is not mcreasmg at. the rate that it ing office at the railway; consequently the should increase. If Queensland had a popu matter becomes an expensive one. The same latiOn capable of supporting all these costs, procedure applies at the other end, where whiCh are really capable of supporting a the same procedure, expense, and delay much bigger population than we have then occur. 'l'here is the loss of time, the heavy the interest bill would become a 'lesser expense incurred, the pilfering, and so on, burden on the people generally. To-day we all of which are serious items. have got a railway system which it has been The TREASURER: Then at the other end you proudly claimed gives more miles per head again have cartage. of population than the railway system in any other country in the world. It has Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Just so. You have been claimed that we have something like cartage at the consignor's end, railway 6,000 miles of railway for 800 000 people. freight from town to town, and cartage at The effect of it can be seen to-day. It is not the receiver's end. Those three items put [Yroper to boMt of such a thing. We do together make railway transport very un not want miles of railway with no one on it. profitable on the smaller runs to which the Therefore, the issuP the 'I'reasurer has 'l'reasurer alluded. Compare that with motor raisod is wrapped. up . tremendously in this transport, where the lorry pulls up outside questwn of Imm1gratwn which has been The TREAScHER: The Commonwealth Burnett, Longreach towards Winton, Many ban-owed money from America. Peaks to North Burnett, M onto to Rannes, M·r. ELPHI""STO~E: Exactly; and I Baralaba to Castle Creek, the Mount Isa line, am not suggesting that the American market and t.hc 1\,fount l\1ol!oy lino. should be avoided, but we can carry our Mr. l\IOORE : They could not possibly be speculation too far. If we cannot get from constructed for £500,000. England the money we need to develop this country, the next best country to apply to The TREASL"RER: The bulk of the expen is America, but in that regard we must diture in the Raih,ay Department is in con always bo prepared to pay our quid pro quo. nection with internal matters. The whole question is wrapped up, not in th(• amount of money you are going to Mr. NIOORli;: The Tn·asurer gave a lot borrow, but the amount of interest you can of figures. and stated that there were 2,881 men cmplo~·ed by the Railway Department earn on the money in the investments you on works paid for out of loan money. make with it. If we are paying 5 per cent. and can l','olrn only 2~ per cent. on the The TREASl"RER: There are as manv activity into which we put that money, employed on the construction of main roads: there is a limit to our borrowing power, and that is the limit wo are up against. Mr. MOORE: That is the position we 'The Treasurer need not worry about h.ave reached. It is an extraordinary posi Queensland's indebtedness per head of popu twn to put forward that you desire money lation. Neither do I. What we are worry for the development of roads when really ing about is tho interest bill per head of there is very little of the money going into population and the amount of that interest construction of main roads. The local bill which falls upon the shoulders of the authorities are responsible for one-fourth. taxp:.cyers, instead of being provided by the Two per cent. of the amount collected by activity in which the money has been way of motor tax under the Main Roads invf'qted. Act js pla~ed to a sinking fund, and the romamder Is provided by the Commonwealth Mr. MOORE (ciubigny}: This afternoon Government. we heard one of the most extraordinary The TREASURER: The Government are pro speeches from a Treasurer introducing a Yiding £500,000. Loan Bill that I have ever listened to. He spent ne~·rly the whole of his time in point Mr. MOORE : Two per cent. of the motor ing out the impossibility under pr<;lsent cc:m tax is paid year after year to a sinking ditions of the railways competmg with fund and allowed to accumulate. That is the motor transport and the difficulties Queens only fund in connection with which thoro is land is placed in. . yet sq per cent.. of the ~sinking fund ..We did have a sinking fund loan money he Is askmg authonty to m connectwn with our loan expenditure to borrow is going into the very railways h<-" is which ~ per cent. was paid ; but the opera talking about. tions of that sinking fund have been inter The TREASURER: To which we are com mittent, and have been suspended for some mitted. years .. _Th<; money provided by the local authorities IS secure. There has never been Mr. MOORE: vVe have spent loan money a def':'ult in that direction. It really amounts on many miles of line" which are not return to this-that the bulk of the money is found ing more than 1 per cent. on money for by the Commonwealth Government. which we had to pay 4~ per cent. or 5 J .' cent. The whole thing does not look v · The 'I'REAScRER: No. attractive as a speculation for the man who Mr. MOORE: You have 2,881 men is beinrr asked to lend his money. I am employed. only taking it now from the point of view which the Treasurer put forward. Roughly, The TREASURER: Any loan money lent to the local authorities appears as loan money the biggest proportjon of the money. whi<;Jh in our Estimates. he seeks to borrow IS to be mvC pay, but on Government jobs there is a Mr. FERRIOKS: Don't forget that Queem· definite 44-hour week and a fixed rate of land has eight times the area of Victoria. wag~s. Unskilled workers can earn a better and that Victoria has twice the population. rate of wages under better conditions than in country districts, and naturally they seek Mr. MOORE: I am not talking about the Go_ve_rnment jobs. That is why they are area or population of Victoria. I am talk· dnftrng to the cities. It is not that the ing about the amount of loan money that has position in the country is not so good as it been spent. The Treasurer to-day pointed used to be, but that the conditions in connec out that Queensland had been rather parsi tion with Government jobs are much more monious in not having spent as much loan f>:voura~le than those offered by privat.e indi money as Victoria. viduals ;n the country; consequently people The TREASURER: No. are lcavmg the country. [5 p.m.] Mr. MOORE: That Queensland was not as extravagant as Victoria. Mr. O'KEEFE: They are receiving a better education now. The TREASURER: No-that we compared favourably with Victoria. Mr. MOORE: I do not know whether it i" that or not, but I do know that if you Mr. MOORE : The hon. gentleman pointed deplete the population of the cou~trv vou out that the increase in borrowing in Victoria was 79.48 per cent., as against 55.64 per cent. will immediately make the position so ~~rious for the people in Government jobs and in in Queensland over an eleven-year period. the towns that it will defeat its own object. That does not matter a bit. The question which matters is, what has it been spent on? Mr. PEASE: The farmers do not pay their In Victoria the money spent is. giving a children. That is why they go to the to" ns. return, so that to-day only 5. 74 per cent. Mr. MOORE: It is .a matter Qf regret to comes out of the taxpayers' pockets-the rest hear the hon. member for Herbcrt say so, comes out of the services so constructed; because he represents an electorate which \Yhoreas in Queensland the taxpayers are exists practically on the production of sugar asked to find 17.36- per cent., showing that -a protected industry which enables the the money has been spent on works which farmer to enjoy conditions which the ordinarv are not giving a return. If we ha,d spent farmer cannot possibly enjoy. · twice as much as Victoria and obtained the s-1mo return, we wouJ.d not be in the position Mr, PEASE : They do not encourage their we arc in. It is just because we are not children to stop on the land. receiving a r,eturn from the services in which the money has been spent that we find our Mr. MOORE: The Treasurer quoted selves in a difficult and anxiol!s position. numerous figuL s to show that Queensland has not borrowed .as much in proportion as The TREASURER: I do not know that you other States have borrowed. That does not would criticise us for conveying a trainload matter a bit. It is not a question of how of fodder from Rockhampton to Longreach much they have borrowod. It is a question for nothing because it cost more than it of what they have spent that borrowed was \Yorth to convoy it to Rockhampton. money on. If the money has been spent on works retun1ing interest and redemption, then 1\Ir. MOOHE: I am not criticising what the more they spend the better. If the loan fodder for starving stock the raih' ays carry money has been SJ:>ent on works that do not in time of drought. The position then was return interLst and re.d.en1ption, then 'VVC an abnormal one. But we are not alwavs gradually get to the position of stagnation in that abnormal position. Take the po~i which we have reached in Queensland to-day. tion as disclosed by the report of the Auditor-General. In 1923-24 the raihvays The Treasurer continually quoted Victori« showed a deficit of £1,593,066, while in as showing that the increase in borrowing in 1924-25 the deficit was £894,498. Imme Victoria since 1915 was 79.48 per cent., as diately the deficit was brought down to against 55.64 per cent. in Queensland. Vvhat £094,498 the Government defeated their own does that matter? The position is that in object. The railway employees approached 1915 3.6 per cent. of the money of the tax the Board of T·rade and Arbitration and payers in Queensland went to pay interest asked for an increase of wages and a and redemption, whereas to-day that figure decrease of hours. The Board of Trade has increa 'ed to 18 per cent., while in Vic and Arbitration stated that the financial toria, whereas 17.36 per cent. of the tax position of the country could not stand that, payers' money went to pay interest and but the Government chucked aside the redemption in 1915, that percentage has board, and said, "We will give it to you," to-day been rooucoo to 5. 72 per cent. with the result that to-day our deficit has reached £1,700,000. 'fhe Commissioner for The TREASURER : We may be charging iess Railways cannot be blamed for that. The in Queensland for services. The pPople ha vo Government must take the blame for what the money in their pockets just the same. was brought about by their own action. I Mr. MOORE: Surely the Treas11rer will am not going to say that the policy of the not trot out the argument that the people Government is detrimental in the long run, have the money in their pockets and they but one has to recognise the prejudices of have not paid the freights on the railway! the individual. If the Government desire It has been taken out in other ways. What individuals to settle in this country in the I want to point out is that the services from way they ought to settle and the way they works built by loan money in Victoria .are did settle, then they must make the con returning in interest to-day all except 5.74 ditions of land settlement as attractive as per cent., which has to come out of the tax they are in other States. They must give payers' pockets, while in Queensland no less them the same conditions that are available than 17 per cent. has to come out of the in New South Wales; they must give them taxpayers' pockets. the opportunity of choosing that tenure which they desire. [M1·. JYioore. Gov .rmnent Loan B l\L:. PEASE: And how arc you going to haYe them in the position they are in to-day get rid of the crop? where they are driving everybody into adopt iVh. MOORE: It is uo use the hon. mem mg motor car or motor lorry transport. The ber raising such ridiculous issues. If we railways aro not attempting to meet the arc going to say that we cannot go ahead competition. They are raising freights and any more, that we cannot put any more fares, making it inconvenient, and running men on the land bee auso we arc over-pro trains at tir:'es inconvenient to tho public, ducing, then the position is an absurdity. thereby forcmg the people into the position This country must develop and go ahead, of using other modes of transport. n,nd the Government must make the con A GOVERXTh!EllT MEMBER : ·whom do you ditions of settlement attractive. blame for it? iVI'r. PEASE: Supposing thov reach the Mr. MOORE : I blame the Government limit, as we have with butter and sugar right through. What hava the Governments to-day '1 in the other States done to meet the diffi Mr. MOO RE: I do not intend to deal culty? They have started quick motor trans 1vith the sugar question; but. if anybody port on the railways both in New South says that Queensland has reached the limit W~Jes and in Victoria. They are running so far as lmtter and general agricultural rail motor cars at a reduction of 33 per production 11rc concerned, then God help ~ent. on the running cost of the locomoti.-es. Queensland! \Ve have to live on our rhcy aye carrymg cream and other goods in exports. What is the good of building agri these h!?ht cars and showing a profit. What cultural lines, of opening up now lands, or do we find at Ather~ou? It pays a private of offeTing attractions to settlers if we can company to run a rail motor on the railwavs not develop further than our present stage? and it pays them to' pay the department" t~ If we are to go back to sheep-growing, then be allo~ved to do so. If it pays a company let that be done; but, if we do so, we shall to do It on a Gm·ernment railway, surely be doing it at a time when we have not It should pay the Railway Oommission0l- to t•eached the limit of agricultural produc meet t!1e demands of the people and provide tion or dairying. Evidently that is the a service th":t at any rate is going to meet opinion of the Government, because they are the competition of the motor service. continuing to open up country and throw Mr. PEASE: It would mean increased open small blockc. If the Government want expenditure. people to take up that land, they must alter thei,r policy of tenure and give settlers Mr. .".IOORE : I do not think it would an opportunity of taking up land under the mea.n increased expenditure, because, if you policy they think best suited to succeos. can reduce the runmng expenses by 33 per cent., It must pay. It pays in Victoria and At 5.8 p.m., I think it would pay here. ' The SPEAKER resumed the chair. We all believe in the establishment of a Mr. FERRICKS: Like Yictoria, ;vhich last Commonwealth Loan Council. The Treasurer y 4.866-the interest amounts to £173,554. On The TREASURER: Supposing thot gees now the net realisation this is equal to £6 1s. 3d. to help to pay the public servicc>, witat will per c0nt. per annum. No one can say this is you knock off? un except-ionally cheap rate of interest when \\·c are using that money to construct public Mr. MOORE: The hon. gentlom8,n will works which do not return 1 per cent. EOt knock off anything. Do·es tho Treo.mrer intere't.. The bondholders have the right to sa v that no economies can be effected any- claim the rcpul'Chase of one-fifteenth of the where, no matter what- happens? " bonds each year during the last fifteen years The TREASTIRER; If I knew where 1 e0uid of the currency of the loan at £102~, which knock ,anything off, I would do so. means an additional loss. \Ve have to recog nise that probably all this money has been ::\1r. MOORE : The Treasurer says that we a lre:1rly allocated. \V c are not putting in have got an expenditure which has reached tho loan pros1>ectus what it is to be used for. the irreducible minimum, and that we can I do not know whether the Treasurer noticed save nothing. If we cannot get any In ore the other day that there was a criticism to monoy out of the taxpayer, we shall have to the effect that that should be done. The curtail expenditure. Bill just merely states that £9 000 000 is The TREASURER: I am trying to wake thfr required. ' ' public up to the position. Years ago, when Loan Bills were brouo-ht in, it was specifically stated what the mo~ey Mr. l\IIOORE : I quite realise that the was l'C(jmred for-so much for railways so Treasurer is trying to wake us up ; but much for local authorities ancl so much' for people have got so us-ed to hearing the cry other services. The people then knew what of "Wolf!" during the last few years that the_ investment was going to be. A little they have become accustomed to it. I view wh1le ago, m an English paper, the following the position with the greatest anxiety, cntJri'm appeared, and I think it may have because it appears to me as though we some dfect upon the action of the Govern shall come to a financial crisis if things go ment, as we are going to get into mom diffi on as they are going to-day. culties unless we know what the monev is The TREASURER: Do you think it IS being borrowed for. The extract reads-- improving my rest at night? " Unless and until Australia guarantees Mr. MOO RE: I do not think it is; but that the money will be sprnt productivelv we have to face the position. Any or<;!inary trustees will be justified in refusing t~ regard them (Australian loans) as trustee business undertaking which finds it IS not security in the ordinary sense of the going to have an income ·equal to its expen term. The lack of information in the diture has to look round for wme basis of prospectuses constitutes a scandal. It is alteration in regard to its expenditure. It no wonder that the demand for Australian has to find out where the leaks are, and loans is shrinking." discover where money is being exp Mr. MOORE: It is n I-Ie stated that. if you reduced it in one dir·ection, you were taking away money that was being expended on the public senice. It is no good keeping on talking [5.30 p.m.] like that. If you ha Ye onlv a ccrt 1 in an1ount of 1nonev ~ to ."lpend, you have to cut your cloth accor,cfingly 'lnd curtail =·our expenditure in some direc tion, otherwise we shall race headlong to a financial crisis, and the position of the people dependent on the Gm·ornmont will then be far worse than it otherwise would be. It i• not as though the Government were expend ing the money in the establishment of indus tries \vhich would keep going after the n1oney has been expended. It is not a· though the Govern1nont are encouraging co-operative enterprises-as they said they would do dur ing the elections-and .adYancing the worker eufticicnt money to establish co-operative enterprises so that they will have something to kF>p them in work when the loan money is ' •cpended. The loan money is expended to keep men employed on d0ad-end jobs. So long as that policy continues, so long shall we have an ever-increasing burden of interest and increasing deficits on the railways. The Treasurer must face the position and realise where this policy will lead the State if his GoYernment continue to carry on in the way they are doing. Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong) : I beg to move the adjol.!rnment of the deb1te. Question put and passed. The resumption of the debate was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow. The House adjourned at 5.31 p.m.