WSIRN Episode 218: A WSIRN Marriage Story Hosted by Anne Bogel, with guest Anna Mitler

[00:00:00] ANNA: Their friends were amazed at, like, this four-year-old can read. But then they would look closely, and like the book is upside down. [BOTH LAUGH]

[CHEERFUL INTRO MUSIC]

ANNE: Hey readers. I’m Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next? Episode 218. ​ ​

Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader: What should I read next?

We don’t get bossy on this show: What we WILL do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we’ll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, it’s always fun to read through the guest applications you all send in at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. You fill our inbox with stories, goals, hilarity, and so much heart. One particularly memorable application didn’t come from today’s guest Anna Mitler — it came from one of her best friends, Charlotta, asking if we could make What Should I Read Next a part of Anna’s upcoming wedding. I don’t want to spoil the story before Anna has a chance to tell it herself, so I’ll just say that it took a full year to stitch the pieces together and get this episode to your ears, and I hope you love Anna’s story as much as we loved making it happen.

Let’s get to it! Anna, welcome to the show.

ANNA: Thank you for having me.

ANNE: Oh, it is my pleasure. And it's a funny thing because of your history with the podcast that has not been on air, I feel like we've talked before. But we haven't actually talked before.

1

[00:01:29] ANNA: Yeah, it feels like we're old friends, even though I kinda feel like it's one-sided 'cause I feel like I know so much about you than you know about me, but... [LAUGHS]

ANNE: It feels like it just happened, but it's actually close to a year ago. Your friend Charlotta sent in the sweetest guest application on your behalf, and it just made everyone here at What Should I Read Next headquarters go "Aww." And actually, we have a clip from Charlotta reading her email. Here it is.

CHARLOTTA: Hi, Anne. My good friend Anna is getting married in Helsinki, Finland this summer. Anna is your super fan. She never misses a podcast or an Instagram live feed. She has gotten several members of our book club hooked as well. We're throwing her a surprise bachelorette party weekend in a forest retreat in May. During this bachelorette weekend, we'll have a book club meeting and would like to pick a book that is about marriage as a right of passage. It would mean the world to her to get book recommendations on marriage from you. Could you recommend a book for us to read in this surprise book club in May?

ANNE: So, our producer Brenna immediately messaged me when she got this message and said, "Hey, the bachelorette party idea is so cute and, obviously, we have to do it. But what if we did more?" So I recorded a voice message recommending two books for you, one to read before the wedding, and one that would be a great vacation read on your honeymoon, and we sent it over to Charlotta with the promise that after all the wedding hustle and bustle was over, and you were back from your honeymoon, you would come on What Should I Read Next and tell me what you thought about the books. And here you are. I'd love to hear about how all this unfolded from your point of view.

ANNA: I don't know where to start because I wasn't aware until, you know, that request [ANNE LAUGHS] until ... Yeah, late, late May. Yeah, I was completely unaware. My … I guess my history with the podcast is I've been a huge fan. I discovered it maybe two years ago now, and I believe I was the first among my friends because I started telling everybody about it. And Charlotta is in a book club, in my book club that I established with some friends. I constantly talked to them about the podcast. And then I feel like because I started listening to your podcast and I signed to your newsletter and then I joined your book club and then I went to book school, and then I started book journaling [LAUGHS] and I felt like I was getting more and more involved in the community and I did tell my friends about every step of the way. So I think that's how Charlotta knew about you.

ANNE: It says something about a person if what you want at your bachelorette weekend is book recommendations. We just love that about you and your friends. We thought we'd just like fit right in together.

[00:04:09]

2 ANNA: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: So, of course I want to know more about the book club bachelorette. Tell me what it was like.

ANNA: I have to start a little bit before the bachelorette weekend because sometime in the spring, my boyfriend, future-husband at the time suggested that we should read a book together, which when we started dating, we read two books together, and then I told him, okay, you can pick whatever you want. You're more picky with books than I am. And so he picked this book which is a nonfiction by I think she's a psychologist, or at least a couple counselor, Hold ​ Me Tight.

ANNE: I don't know this one.

ANNA: I was so impressed by him because it's basically, it's about attachment theory in relationships, and the whole book is about her like sharing this theory, but basically how it can help couples overcome conflict. And in each chapter, she talks to couples who are on the verge of breaking up, and she applies the theory and shows how you can use it to overcome conflict and sustain connection in long term. And I was so impressed that, you know, he picked this book. I was like oh my god, you're taking this upcoming marriage so seriously. [ANNE LAUGHS] I did tell my friends about it, too. I was so smug about it. I was like oh, my god, can you imagine?

ANNE: What did they say?

ANNA: You know, they weren't as impressed as I was hoping they would be. They were just like oh, that's great. [LAUGHS] And then at my bachelorette weekend, which by the way, I don't know if this is a tradition in other countries, but in Finland, the whole weekend is a total surprise to you. You don't know when it happens, and you don't know what you're going to do at all.

ANNE: Wait, this isn't you and your friends? This is the standard way it's done?

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: Oh. I wouldn't say that's the norm [ANNA LAUGHS] where I live in the United States.

ANNA: Okay.

ANNE: But that's really fun.

[00:05:58]

3 ANNA: It's also terrified. It makes you not trust your friends. [ANNE LAUGHS] You know, my spring was so filled with all kinds of plans, and I didn't know which ones were fake, and which ones were not. [ANNE LAUGHS] The wedding was not until the end of July, so there was a lot of time for me to think okay, when is it happening? [LAUGHS] And I was so sure that I would just know when it would happen because it's not so easy to trick me, but they successfully tricked me.

ANNE: So what did they do?

ANNA: They made multiple fake plans. My friends from work, they convinced me that we were having an after work on Friday and another friend convinced me that she celebrated her birthday on Saturday, and she created a Facebook event, and invited friends there, which is why I believed it was a true plan, because it was like no one's going to create a fake Facebook event, and people were attending, and people were messaging her like plans for that Saturday. [ANNE LAUGHS] I made a handmade gift for her because I was so looking forward to see this friend because I don't see her very often. So I was very excited for her birthday, which well, turned out, she just like, she told all of her friends that this is a fake plan, and they just played along. [ANNE LAUGHS] So at the bachelorette weekend, Charlotta actually put together a list of cocktail recipes that had book pairings with them. That book was called Modern Mrs. Middler's Cocktail Book.

ANNE: [LAUGHS] I love it.

ANNA: Which retrospectively, should have given me some hints, but I was just like oh, you know I like the podcast, so it's a riff from that, that's really nice. So we made some cocktails and we sat down and my friends were like, oh, you know, we're going to have a book club now. I was so surprised. I was like, what do you mean? Did we all read the same book? And they were like yup! Which one? And of course it was Hold Me Tight. [BOTH LAUGH] So they were the ones ​ ​ who liked asked my boyfriend to make me read this book. I think originally they were hoping to read your recommendation, but I think the timing didn't work out because like we needed to get it done in time because the party was in May, so they picked this Hold Me Tight, book about ​ ​ relationships, and we actually had a book club. We discussed this book for an hour, which was so wonderful. I loved it. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: That's amazing.

ANNA: And then at the end, my friend, Marina she said, hey, well you know, one person who really wanted to be part of this session, but is not here, but she left a message for you. And then I was just so surprised, I was like, what do you mean? Who's like ... I couldn't think of anybody who wasn't there. And then they started playing your message.

ANNE: And we have that clip for everyone to hear. This is what I sent Charlotta. [00:08:43]

4 ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is my opportunity to recommend a book, no, TWO books for the bride-to-be, so thank you for asking me. First, for a marriage-centric book, I have in mind The Real Thing by Ellen McCarthy. This is lessons on love and life from a wedding ​ ​ reporter's notebook. This is a few years old. It's nonfiction. It's a lot of fun. McCarthy was the weddings reporter for The Washington Post, so that means for her weekly beat, she interviewed more than 200 couples over the years who walked down the aisle and it appeared in the weddings column for her magazine.

In this book, she pulls together everything she's learned about her insights in love and marriage and also breakups, and she has a funny story because she actually endured a pretty horrible breakup on her first day on her job as a wedding reporter, so how is that for ironic? But this is a bunch of short essays. You don't even have to read them in order. They have funny titles like Screw Meeting Cute, and Don't Look For Lightning, and one that I particularly enjoyed was Top 10 Reasons To Call It Off. Although I think when you read these, you will only feel better about your decision and not worse. This is smart and funny. There’s great fodder for conversation.

Now for the honeymoon read. This might sound kind of funny, but I want to recommend a book about a woman who falls off the bike in spin class, bumps her head, and wakes up in the middle of what has become a horrible marriage. Here's what I like about it. At its heart, What Alice ​ Forgot by Liane Moriarity is a book about how good relationships go bad. And they don't go bad ​ overnight, but instead, in all the myriad small decisions we all make in our everyday lives.

I'm a big fan of marriage expert John Gottman's work. He says most marriages die with a whimper, as people turn away from one another slowly growing apart. That all sounds pretty depressing, why would you read it on your honeymoon? Okay, answer one: Liane Moriarity. Her books are fast and fun and they go down easy. They go down so easy in fact, that you may not even realize that in a very entertaining way, What Alice Forgot addresses issues that really ​ ​ matter, which is how do good relationships go bad overtime? Her answer is that we stop acting like we care, and I think what it does is it really calls you to treasure and honor and pay attention to the relationships that matter to you the most right in front of you. So, fast, fun, and about happy times in marriage and how to make them last by loving the people important to us well.

So, congratulations, best wishes for a fun girls weekend together, a very happy honeymoon. Oh, and let's not discount the wedding in between. I hope that is a dream day for you. I'm thrilled to hear that books are an important part of these special times in your lives. So best wishes, and happy reading.

ANNA: I was so shocked and surprised and touched. I couldn't focus on your message. [BOTH LAUGH] 'Cause I was just like, what's going on? This is like worlds colliding. I was like oh my god, Anne Bogel is sending me a recommendation on this, my bachelorette weekend.

[00:11:52]

5 ANNE: Well, it was a big weekend for you.

ANNA: Yeah! And then while you were talking, they gave me the copies of the books that you recommend and they all signed them and this is when I started crying uncontrollably because it was just so, so, so touching. I actually cried again when I showed - I replayed your message to my boyfriend when I came home from the weekend and I cried again then. [LAUGHS] And he was just like, why are you crying? This is so strange. [ANNE LAUGHS] But I just thought, I loved hearing your recommendation. I loved that you were a part of that weekend. I loved that my friends did this for me, and I just couldn't even imagine the amount of work that was put into getting that message to me on that day.

ANNE: Well, I'm so glad I got to be a part of your special weekend. When you're not actively getting married, tell me about your reading life.

ANNA: I mean, I read all the time, and I have extended my genres actually thanks to your podcast and your blog. I've been reading more historical fiction and graphic novels, good nonfiction, like I tend to veer towards fiction. I have read like my fair share of Russian classics growing up, so I'm not so keen on that. [LAUGHS] I like to vary my reading a lot, so if I read a nonfiction, I usually have two books going at the same time. One will typically be on audio and another print, usually at home, and now I’m actually going back to school soon, so I'll probably have three books going at the same time. One of them will be a textbook.

ANNE: What are you going back to school for?

ANNA: I'm going to get an MBA.

ANNE: So that will be an interesting mix.

ANNA: Yeah, so I'll have like textbooks on financial accounting and [LAUGHS] Harry Potter and ​ ​ some cool latest fiction and maybe some old historical novel all at the same time.

ANNE: I mean, you sound like a reader.

ANNA: My parents love to tell the story of how I started reading before I could read. Like basically they would read bedtimes stories to me, and I would memorize them, and then I would pick up the book and I would just, like, retell the story as I remembered it. And so, their friends were amazed at, like, this four-year-old can read, but then they'd look closely and like the book is upside down. [BOTH LAUGH]

ANNE: Isn't it amazing how the human brain works? Like even from an early age, like you just love and can so easily internalize those stories.

[00:14:10]

6 ANNA: I've always been a reader basically.

ANNE: Where do you fit reading into your day right now? Like is it something you do to relax at night, what you do when you're taking breaks?

ANNA: I always try to read before bed. I listen to books on audio on my commute to work, which is quite short, so I don't actually get that much reading done. [LAUGHS] I listen to books when I run also. I'm a runner, so that helps. And then school books, I just have to make time for them.

ANNE: So it sounds like you have some systems in place, so that when you do resume with serious course load, you won't entirely stop reading. ‘Cause that does happen to a lot of students.

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: You know, we're always in favor of recreational reading here, but we understand how sometimes for a season.

ANNA: Yeah, because I already have a master's and like, so I just remember from previous studies that at the end of a school year, the, like, I was just yearning for stories that had like a plot. [BOTH LAUGH] 'Cause you get so overly statured with theories and concepts and things like that that I just want, you know, good characters and a plot and a storyline. And I think I might change the type of books I read, so I probably won't dive into really heavy stuff, which I normally love, but I think I'll probably just read more detective stories or cozy mysteries or whatever or graphic novels and less of the thick stuff. At least until the summer break. Then in the summer break, I'll [LAUGHS] tackle those 500 page [LAUGHS] books that I've been dreaming about in the throes of school life.

ANNE: I love how you have it all mapped out. So, Anna, I can't wait to hear more about your favorites. Are you ready to get into your books?

ANNA: Yes. [LAUGHS]

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ANNE: Okay, well, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next. So, how did you choose these books?

[00:18:35] ANNA: It was very difficult. I cheated a little bit because I picked favorite authors for the two books, two of my favorites, instead of one book. I hope that's okay.

ANNE: We'll allow that.

ANNA: One of them is J.K. Rowling. I have devoured Harry Potter, but I also read ... Basically ​ ​ I've read everything by her. I've read The Casual Vacancy, and all of the Cormoran Strike ​ ​ ​ detective stories, and I just love the way she writes. Like all of the books, they have depth to them beyond the plot. Like all of the books, they have great characters that you empathize and you want to learn about. They all go through growth. You know, the plot is constantly moving.

Post-Harry Potter, her stories just acquired even more depth I think because it's not a children's ​ ​ literature. She's able to dive into more difficult problems, like she's talking about you know, being outsiders, class differences. We even get into like some politics with some of the books, or at least, you know, we enter into the House of Commons and the Westminster even in her latest book. So I love the settings, the atmosphere, everything actually about her writing. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I love the Cormoran Strike series and I mean, the problem with getting a new book out ​ ​ like Lethal White, it's now been a full year. I read it, and I read it so fast, and then I wanted to ​ ​ know what happens next, and it's such a long wait. But I haven't yet read The Casual Vacancy. ​ ​ What did you love about it?

ANNA: It's set in a small-town and you really feel like you are there. Everything like appealing about small towns in the U.K., and then it also has this dark undercurrent of small town politics and jealousy, people being petty. People being outsiders for various reasons and how they're trying to incorporate themselves into the fabric of the town, how they're being rejected for various reasons. How people judge you based on your circumstances and not so much on the depth of your character. Yeah, so it has a big cast of characters, but they're all distinct and everybody's problematic. And I think it raises some really good moral questions.

ANNE: Just the kind of thing you like to dig into.

9 [00:20:46] ANNA: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: The middle books in the Cormoran Strike series were heavy hitting. I mean, I had to read ​ ​ some of it like peeking through my fingers covering my eyes because oh, it was so gruesome in places. But also I just really wanted to know what happened. Like with the mysteries yes, but also in the personal lives of her characters. Like I am in, and I want to know.

ANNA: Yeah, with Casual Vacancy, there's much less gory stuff because yeah, there's no ​ ​ constant murders like with the detective stories. There is still some things that'll make you cringe I think. There's still some things that are heartbreaking, which she doesn't shy away from I think. I mean, if you enjoyed the Cormoran Strike series, I think you would also enjoy The Casual ​ ​ ​ Vacancy.

ANNE: Well I've been meaning to give it a try, and then you said it was one of your favorites. [ANNA LAUGHS] So maybe this is just the push I need in the right direction.

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: What did you choose for your second favorite?

ANNA: My second author, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. I think I've read everything by her except her recent short story collection I think. Actually short stories is not something I like that much or maybe I just haven't found a collection that works for me. But I especially liked Americana and I really liked Half of a Yellow Sun and The Purple Hibiscus, which I read quite ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ recently.

ANNE: Tell me more about short stories.

ANNA: Yeah, I think they just, the story ends too soon for me. [BOTH LAUGH] I don't know, I try reading collections of small, or short stories by various authors. I think the only one I liked was by Charles de Lint, who is a Canadian author and has fairies. It has actual magic in them, but they are set in urban settings, like you can have regular cities and then something magical happens there. I don't know what it is that doesn't work for me. I think it ends too abruptly, or it serves as a metaphor that I can't quite understand. Maybe it has so many layers that are packed together in short pages that you need to maybe spend more time on it to, like, unravel the mystery that's been you know inside those pages.

ANNE: I know a lot of readers say that, they'll read a story or sometimes readers will feel this way about novels that are written as a collection of short stories almost, like Homegoing by Yaa ​ ​ Gyasi or Before We Visit the Goddess by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni. That they feel like by the ​ ​ time they've gotten to know the characters and they're rooting for them and they're invested, you

10 leave them behind and you meet new people and they're like, but-but-but. I want to know what happened to them. Like does that resonate with you?

[00:23:13] ANNA: Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause I feel like you are dropped in the middle of a narrative and then you leave when you kind of want to find out what happens next. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I'm sympathetic to your point of view, although I do love what a good short story can do. They can really pack a punch. The first short stories I remember reading where the O. Henry stories that we all read in seventh grade. And also The Lottery by Shirley Jackson. Is this a story ​ ​ you know?

ANNA: No. Never heard.

ANNE: It's the story of a small community drawing straws, cards, I don't remember what they're drawing, but they're choosing one community member as they do once a year for something significant, and the story at the end if you don't know what's coming really is stunning. And like it's shocking. I read it for the first time when I was twelve or thirteen years old, and I can still remember that like gah reaction to it.

ANNA: Wow.

ANNE: [LAUGHS] But this week I was driving kids in my car and two middle schoolers were discussing the point of The Lottery and I thought [LAUGHS] I'm not sure whether I should ​ ​ intervene or not. That was one of my more memorable reading experiences in recent weeks. [ANNA LAUGHS] Adiche, hey? What is it that really makes you feel connected to her work and want to keep picking up more?

ANNA: I think originally I liked her stories because they were so different. They introduced a fresh perspective because so much of the books I read and like are by Western authors and set in Western countries, whereas hers, it comes from Nigeria. You can relate to this country, but still the fact that it is a different country, it is a different context, the perspective, the characters, the storylines, are fresh. I think that's originally why I like her, but now that I've read so many of her stories, it's not so much the fresh perspective and I also read a few other African and Nigerian authors thanks to her work.

But what I like about her, it's again like character development. There's so much plot development too. I like the … I think for Americana, I think I just love the theme of immigration ​ ​ and belonging. I think that resonated with me a lot. She tackles big themes like family, bringing a faith in a way that is not daunting, but is still really engaging because through the eyes of the characters, you get to grapple with these really difficult questions. Or with Half A Yellow Sun, ​ ​ you learn about the difficult history of Biafra, of Nigeria, which I didn't know anything about

11 before that book. It sounds really heavy, but it's not at all heavy. Like this book just reads in one go.

[00:25:47] ANNE: I see what you mean, how she takes these themes that it's so easy and common to think about in the abstract and she makes them really intimate. I have to not get all gushy when I'm talking about a book like Americana, which I just love, and is one that I recommend on the ​ ​ podcast a lot. Like for our patreon community, we've rounded up the books that have appeared on the show the most and Americana is definitely one of them. And now, what did you choose ​ ​ for your third pick?

ANNA: Educated by Tara Westover. It was actually a recommendation from a friend's mother ​ ​ who recommended it last year. She said that she really liked this book and then of course, I think it was one of the most read books last year in book clubs in States. And we read it in our book club in February. So there were many reasons to read this book. Like it expanded my worldview.

Plus it's non fiction. I do like nonfiction as well. Well-written nonfiction. It's memoir, really. It's well-written. It's surprisingly shocking, I think, considering that you know, it's a story about someone around my age who grew up in United States, but her life is so different from most people around her. Anyhow, she clocked with her life and how her life developed. It was fascinating 'cause I think it taught me so much about the flexibility of humans as species I guess. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Oh, that's an interesting way to put it.

ANNA: After reading this book, I really felt like my worldview has expanded. I have now seen something new and different.

ANNE: Okay, I'm going to think about how all that integrates with your previous loves. [ANNA LAUGHS] Anna, tell me about a book that was not for you.

ANNA: So, this book, I picked it up. I don't remember why I picked it up, but it's Love in the Time ​ of Cholera by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I have read his 100 Years of Solitude, I believe is the ​ ​ ​ name of the book and that one I enjoyed, but this one, I forced myself to finish it and I regretted the time I spent finishing it. [LAUGHS] Because I don't know, it didn't work for me even though it has character development. It has an interesting plot. It's set up in a fresh or like a different location than your typical Western novel, but it just dragged. I don't understand why it felt maybe too lyrical. It just felt like the narration dragged on and on without making me feel like it was a particularly justifiable.

ANNE: So in the season ahead of you, your reading, it’s going to be ... it sounds like it's going to be a little more limited than it has been in the past. You're looking for books that have more in

12 common than what we really saw represented in your favorites that were really strong in character development and also did not have leisurely pacing. They're strong on character, but they're also strong on plot.

[00:28:31] ANNA: Yeah, think that's the magical combination that makes me want to not put down a book. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Okay, so the lyrical writing is nice, but it's just one component of what you're looking for.

ANNA: Yeah. I think it has to be atmospheric and can have beautiful language but yeah, if it's just dragging on, I'm not here for it. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I haven't read Love in the Time of Cholera, but I can't think about it. This is so ... I mean, ​ ​ apologies to the universe and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, but I can't think about it without thinking about the movie Serendipity. Have you seen this?

ANNA: No. But I thought there was a movie adaptation of the book.

ANNE: Oh, it would be very different. So, this is a romantic comedy I think from the '80s, but it's John Cusack and Kate Beckinsale and the plot is driven by him searching used bookstores for the copy of Love in the Time of Cholera that will reunite him with the woman he believes he's ​ ​ destined to be with forever.

ANNA: Oh. That sounds fun. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I mean, I think the last time I saw it it was playing like in a dry bar or like on airplane or somewhere and yeah, it's pretty fun. Like quality cinema that will endure for a 100 years. Maybe not, but fun, yeah.

ANNA: Okay. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Anna, what have you been reading lately?

ANNA: Well thanks to you and [LAUGHS] the marriage, I have been reading a lot of books that are related to marriage and weddings. So I mean, apart from the two recommendations that i'm going to talk about, I also yeah, I read the Hold Me Tight, which was about relationships. Five ​ ​ ​ Love Languages, which was a book recommendation I got at a friend's wedding. [LAUGHS] ​

ANNE: Oh, that's fun.

ANNA: Someone mentioned that book in a speech and afterwards, I was so intrigued, we read it at my book club because I was, like, we have to read this book. [LAUGHS] And I also read The ​

13 Gown, because of course it's related to the biggest wedding of ... at the time of the 20th century. ​ But the two books that you recommended to me. One was The Real Thing. It's a collection of ​ ​ stories about weddings and marriage by the wedding columnist for The Washington Post. I didn't realize that's a job, by the way. That's so cool. For a couple of years, she was writing about weddings for, I think, it was The Washington Post.

[00:30:43] ANNE: It was, yeah.

ANNA: I really liked it. I have to say, I skipped the first couple of chapters or at least I skimmed through them because they were about dating. [LAUGHS] And I was like okay, I'm not interested in that right now 'cause I was so, you know, preparing for a wedding and she has some good chapters on actually preparing for a wedding. Parts that stay with you at a wedding, thinking about the marriage. When we were at the bachelorette weekend, we read together one of the chapters which I think was called How To Arrange A Wedding And Still Keep Your Friends or something along those lines 'cause it was like a fun list based short essay.

Actually one advice she gave that I wish I knew about that before was she recommended plan your wedding in a short period of time. Like within just a couple of months. We spent almost a year planning ours and when I read this book, I was like oh my gosh, she's so right. I mean, during that year, we weren't all the time planning the wedding, but it was always on my mind one way or another. Whereas I think women and men who plan it so like just within a couple of months, like that's the way to go because it's stressful couple of months, but it's going to be a stressful couple of months anyway. Like even we were planning for a year, still last couple of months were really, really heavy. So I wish like when I was reading that book, I was like ah, I wish I knew about this [LAUGHS] before.

And then also one of the things that I remember from this book was she interviewed so many people that ... who got married and she has been to so many weddings because of her job and then she asked them what is the thing that they remembered the most at the end, what stayed with them after the wedding, and most people said it was their ceremony that you spend so much time planning everything else microdetails about everything, but quite often you don't think about the ceremony itself as much. So when I read that, I was like okay, that's really true, we need to really think through about our ceremony and so we spent more time around it with my partner and I'm grateful for that advice. I really enjoyed that book.

ANNE: Well good, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, so you read The Real Thing, and then I recommend ​ ​ a novel as well about a marriage gone terribly, horribly wrong. Was it actually a good honeymoon reading or no?

ANNA: What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarity. The hardest part was to not read it until the ​ ​ honeymoon. [BOTH LAUGH] I put it on my shelf and it was summer and I really wanted a light, fun read, but I was like okay, no, I will read it. And you know, as soon as we went to the airport

14 [LAUGHS] I was like okay, now it's the time! I have to say I enjoyed it, but the first night after I started reading it, I woke up from a horrible nightmare.

[00:33:28] ANNE: No!

ANNA: I think it was because it was like one day after the wedding, so I think I was quite tired and very impressionable. [LAUGHS] I think I was just dreaming about the book and I woke up with this feeling that like my now-husband hates me and I don't understand why. [LAUGHS] Just like the character in the book, that's where it starts. And so, yeah, I remember this horrible sinking feeling like no, you don't love me anymore, and I don't understand why, what have I done?

ANNE: So did you keep reading or did you throw it in the pool?

ANNA: Oh, no, I kept reading. I was like no, this can’t! [ANNE LAUGHS] Yeah, it was perfect summer read. Perfect beach read, like relaxing in the sun. I have to say I was afraid that it wouldn't have a satisfying resolution until the very end but then it did have a very satisfying resolution, so it ended well and I was so happy. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I'm so glad. That is really a relief. I wouldn't want that book to give you honeymoon nightmares and then not have any redeeming qualities about it.

ANNA: No, it was great, and I think it … having that nightmare reading that book, it made me appreciate what we have with my partner in life now. [LAUGHS] I was actually discussing it with another friend. After your recommendation, she read the book and was very careful not to reveal too much, which I thought about it, and afterwards she said, yeah, she was really concerned because like the marriage is really not ... It's not working for most of the book. And so she was like yeah, I was surprised why it was recommended as a honeymoon read, but then in the end, you'll understand like yeah, it works out.

But yeah, we were both wondering like oh my god, what do we do to prevent us from being in that situation? Like not literally but, you know, ten years down the line on your ten year anniversary, will we hate our husbands? [LAUGHS] Or will they hate us? Like what can we do for that not to happen? How does it happen? How do you go from this because when they describe the love in that relationship, you really think like how could these people go from that to not being able to talk to each other?

ANNE: Right, and that's something you can do really well in a novel is you can set up this dramatic construct that lets you explore that question which is really super relevant to your real life.

ANNA: Yeah, exactly.

15 [00:35:38] ANNE: But it condenses the like day by day creeping compliancy that can intrude in any relationship.

ANNA: I've been reading a lot of Kate Atkinson this year.

ANNE: Ooh, fun.

ANNA: I started with Transcription. ​

ANNE: What did you think about that? That's got a different kind of tone than your favorites do.

ANNA: I thought it was fun. She has a lot of dialogue in that book. Not so much like I read other books by her, and some it's just like walls of text with very little dialogue, whereas in this one there is a lot of fun dialogue between two characters. I mean, I like that there was a protagonist who wants to be a typist and then ends up being something else entirely. Uh, yeah, she ends up spying for the MI-6.

ANNE: She just wants a job.

ANNA: Yeah. She just wants a job. And she wants to be independent and then she falls way over her head. Yeah, the plot is fun. I bought this book from a work trip in London, and I happened to be staying at a place that is featured in that book, which I didn't know at the time.

ANNE: Oh, really?

ANNA: Actually the office where she was a typist was in the area where I had my AirBnB. [LAUGHS] So that made it extra fun.

ANNE: Oh, for sure. Oh, what a coincidence. Okay. So lots of Kate Atkinson.

ANNA: Yes. I've been reading her detective stories since, which was actually prompted by the Modern Mrs Darcy reading challenge.

ANNE: What category was that for?

ANNA: That was like for read three books by the same author you like.

ANNE: Okay.

ANNA: So that's how I started with, well now I’m reading like the fifth book by her this year. [LAUGHS] So I clearly like her.

16 [00:37:09] ANNE: That's a good sign.

ANNA: And those are fun, and atmospheric, because I also visited Edinburgh this year and one of the books was set there and I feel like the other books are like in spirit set there because it's really...

ANNE: Which of her books is set in Edinburgh?

ANNA: Well I think it's When Will There Be Good News? ​ ​

ANNE: Oh, okay, I haven't read that one. I don't think I've read any Kate Atkinson since I went to Edinburgh, and you know, you read it differently if you've actually been to a place, you connect with it in a slightly different way.

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: Your imagination has different imagination to latch onto than if you've never been there.

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: Okay, so now I'll have to go back and read it since I have been. [ANNA LAUGHS] Is there anything else in your reading rotation lately?

ANNA: I've been reading some graphic novels thanks to Brenna actually.

ANNE: Aww.

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: Well done, Brenna.

ANNA: [LAUGHS] I would have never picked them up because I thought graphic novels are either for kids are for people who are into superheroes. And [LAUGHS] I'm not heavily into super heros and I was like i'm too grown up to read picture books. She dropped recommendations which were memoirs and I would ... Like I surprised myself by really, really enjoying them. I think the ones I actually enjoyed the most were Spinning and Blankets. I think partly I enjoyed them because I read them in winter and those are quite wintery. There's a lot of snow in Blankets, and Spinning is about ice skating, so. ​ ​ ​ ​

ANNE: That's funny. I went to Edinburgh with Tillie - Tillie Walden.

ANNA: Really?

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[00:38:37] ANNE: Who wrote that one.

ANNA: Oh my God, wow.

ANNE: Yeah. I haven't read it yet but I've been intending to ever since. So maybe with winter upon us, now would be a good time to do that.

ANNA: Yeah. Oh my god, I look forward ... She must write something else, right? She's like 20 or something. [LAUGHS] She's so young. I hope she writes more because I really liked her style..

ANNE: And she says that she's really fast as a cartoonist, so I hope that you means we have lots of books to look forward to and we won't have to wait decades to get them.

ANNA: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Exactly.

ANNE: Anna, what would you like more of in your reading life?

ANNA: I would like to read more diversity because I think, like, I have a long list, a long TBR list with great recommendations that are latest releases, books that are written mostly by American or British authors. I think there's so much choice there and I have so many good recommendations thanks to the podcast. What I would like to read more are slightly older books that could have flown under the radar but stood the test of time, so something that was published maybe five, ten, 15, maybe 20 years ago.

And also I'd like to read more books by or set in countries around the world. And so that's why I set up a challenge for myself to read one book per country. I remember in one of your episodes there's been someone who wanted to read one book for every year of 100 years. I love that episode. I was really impressed, but I was like there's no way I can do this in one year, so [BOTH LAUGH] I think my project, I might be doing it for a decade. I just, you know, there's no timeline to it. I just want to eventually read one book per country although I also realize it's hard to estimate how many countries that includes [LAUGHS] 'cause different lists have different numbers of countries.

ANNE: That's true. That's the advantage of doing it in a year also is that you have less time for the target to move.

ANNA: [LAUGHS] Yeah. I'm so early at the project like I think I've only ticked off 13 countries.

ANNE: What are some of the ones you've gotten so far?

18 [00:40:42] ANNA: United States and United Kingdom [LAUGHS] Russia, the Nordics. Israel actually thanks to one of the graphic novels that I got recommended by a friend, which was Jerusalem ​ Chronicles. That was a fun one. Netherlands. I read The Dinner by Herman Koch. Those were ​ ​ ​ the ones that stick out. I also read Nigerian authors of course. I don't have anything yet for South America. It's going to be really hard to get stuff for the small island nations I think. Some countries like I've never heard of also ended up on that list. Asians countries as well. Yeah, that's not going to be easy.

ANNE: No, that's a big challenge, but it sounds like a fun one.

ANNA: I'm going to travel to Cuba soon. I don't have a book for Cuba, so I was hoping maybe you could recommend me something. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: I'll see what I can do.

***

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ANNE: Okay. So, Anna, the books you love. Anything J.K. Rowling, anything Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, but especially Americana, and the memoir Educated by Tara Westover. Not for ​ ​ ​ ​ you was Love in the Time of Cholera and you're looking for under the radar books and you need ​ ​ one of each from every country in the world. Just under 200, so that's enough reading to keep you busy for a good, long time. All right. So books to take you around the world or straight to South America. I want to make sure I understand the parameters of the challenge. It's one book, either written by an author of that country or set in that country, is that right?

[00:43:36] ANNA: Yeah. I think the reason I set it up was I was afraid that some countries might not have authors that are translated into a language I understand. And some countries might be, like some books might be set in a certain country, so it might be written by, like, an author based somewhere else but set in a country. That could be really interesting. Like for example, I have Unsheltered.

ANNE: Barbara Kingsolver. I made a note. I wondered if based on your love of Adichie, Prodigal ​ Summer by her would be a good pick for you. ​

ANNA: Ahh.

ANNE: But you jotted down Unsheltered as a possible pick. ​ ​

ANNA: Yes! Because it is set in Congo.

ANNE: Ah. That is The Poisonwood Bible. ​ ​

ANNA: Oh, sorry, yes. The Poisonwood Bible. ​

ANNE: Well, I really love that book and I think based on the kind of literature you kinda gravitate towards, that book and that author could be a really good fit for you.

ANNA: Well thank you.

ANNE: Okay. I am going to mostly honor your request to get you books that fly under the radar. But not entirely. [ANNA LAUGHS] Because the first book for Cuba is a book that has sold I'm

20 pretty sure a bazillion copies. At least here in the United States and I know that it's been published in dozens of countries internationally so far and that book is Next Year in Havana by Chanel Cleeton. Is this one you know?

[00:44:49] ANNA: I have seen it on Instagram. Was it one the picks for Reese Witherspoon's book club?

ANNE: It was which you know, it's possible that has something to do with it selling a bazillion copies.

ANNA: Yeah

ANNE: This is a fairly recent release. It came out two-ish years ago. There's already a sequel out that you may enjoy as well called When We Left Cuba. Though much of it takes place in ​ ​ Florida, it still has those heavily cuban ties that you could be reading about. Wait, hold on. Did you say you were going to Cuba actually?

ANNA: Yeah.

ANNE: My brain was so focused on the books that I just glossed over that really exciting detail. So tell me about that trip.

ANNA: We're going for like a second honeymoon. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: That sounds amazing.

ANNA: Planning a wedding was so much energy and took so much time that we felt like at the time that planning a honeymoon would feel very strenuous as well, so we decided okay, we'll just go for a nice trip in Europe and it was a wonderful trip. Good wine and good food, and it was great. But then we also wanted to do, like, a longer trip to a more exotic location further out of where we live, and that's how we ended up planning a trip. We're actually flying through Miami and going to spend some time there and the keyes, and then we're going to New Orleans for Christmas, and then we're going to Cuba for New Years because that was the cheapest place to spend New Years. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: That sounds incredible. Do you have New Orleans books picked out too?

ANNA: No, I don't actually.

ANNE: There have to be some good ones. Readers, you can pile those on in blog comments. There's some amazing bookstores in New Orleans also.

ANNA: Oh, I look forward to that. I already started making a list.

21 [00:46:28] ANNE: Oh, I love it. I'm so jealous. So, Next Year in Havana, this is about a Cuban-American ​ ​ woman who goes from Miami back to Havana after her beloved grandmother dies. I mean, she knows her grandmother was an admirable woman, but when she starts digging and you'll see why she was inspired to do exactly that, she discovers a treasure trove of family secrets that she knew nothing about.

So the story moves back and forth in time. In 2017, the granddaughter is back in Cuba. It's newly open, so she actually can go back and the reason that she's actually allowed to go is that she's going to write an article on tourism for her job. But really what she wanted to do was dig into both her personal history and the history of the country she loves.

So there's that contemporary storyline. But then, you keep going back in time to 1958 where the grandmother is just 19 years old and she's falling in love for the first time with the revolutionary as you do and back in forth Cuba then, and Cuba now, and the family then, and the family now. I know that many people who really didn't know much about Cuba, you can absolutely read this book and really enjoy the experience and it's a great introduction to the history of the country through the lens of a really great and fun, easy to read, fast-moving story. How does that sound?

ANNA: That sounds amazing. Like I can't wait - I'm stopping myself from ordering that book [LAUGHS] until we finish.

ANNE: It is definitely the kind of book like everybody's definition of airplane read is different, but it does seem like it'd be a great airplane read on the way there.

ANNA: Oh, I think I'll have to pick it up before. [BOTH LAUGH]

ANNE: Well honestly, that's - that's probably a good idea then you'll be in the right mindset before your trip. And plus, you may finish that and may want to read When We Left Cuba next. ​ ​

ANNA: I love that it has this like historical aspect through that we get to see two parallel stories.

ANNE: That is really fun, and it's interesting to see, like you know where the grandmother ended up in life. And you get to go back and see more about the choices she made and how she got to where she was and what happened in the country during that crucial time. You see it through the eyes of her granddaughter who's trying to puzzle out her grandmother's actions and her motives and it's really, it's a sweet family story as well.

ANNA: Right.

ANNE: So, if you want to read about South America, I really don't think you could go wrong by picking up something by Isabel Allende. Have you read anything by her?

22 [00:49:00] ANNA: No, but I think I heard her name on the show because I think you mentioned it, like you recommended books by her. I can't remember which ones but actually some of the recent episodes. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Well she is a prolific author and she has a book coming out, the first half of 2020 that I'm really looking forward to that I can see on my bookshelf right now. I'm sure opinions differ on this, but I think if you're going to read Isabel Allende, and you're not sure where to jump in, the House of the Spirits is such an amazing place to start. Although I have to say that while House ​ ​ of the Spirits gets a lot of love, there are many that think Eva Luna is actually her best work. ​ ​ ​

This is a sweeping family saga. It's set over the course of many decades, many characters, lots of development, lots of the personal relationships we see represented in your favorites. Allende also writes about the political in a very, very personal way. She takes those big themes and she makes them very individual. And it's a story about love, destiny, and also magic, and most importantly for you, it is set in Chile by a Chilean-American author. How does that sound?

ANNA: It sounds like ... It's hitting every box on my list of things that I enjoy. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Well that does have a lot in common with Love in the Time of Cholera and I think it's ​ ​ important to say that while her writing is lovely, stuff happens.

ANNA: Okay.

ANNE: It is a hefty book also, but it keeps you moving along.

ANNA: Does it have like a list of characters and the beginning, like a family tree that you need to figure out? Like with Garcia Marquez?

ANNE: Oh, I want to say yes, but then I wonder if I'm just making that up or if I made my own list in front of the book. If your edition doesn't have one, this would be a great time to take a blank page in front of the book or that just makes you feel all tense and awful inside cause you couldn't write in a book just to grab a nice big index card and start making your list of characters. That's not a bad idea. You'll get to know them as the novel goes on, but it might be a little overwhelming in the beginning, so that certainly wouldn't hurt. If you do enjoy her work, there are so many more novels you could read next.

ANNA: That is wonderful. What a gift. Like if I like her and I have an endless [LAUGHS] well not completely endless, but a long list of titles to enjoy.

ANNE: Okay. Anna, this next one is off the beaten path. It's a book set in Colombia. It's by Laura Restrepo. It came out about ten years ago and it's called Delirium. Is this a book you ​ ​ know?

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[00:51:32] ANNA: No, I don't think I've heard anything about it. Tell me.

ANNE: This is a slim book and it's in translation. For some of the smaller countries, there won't be a flood of works to choose from, and so few that English-speakers, and I don't know what it's like in Finland, but so few books that we read here in English are translated. It's something like 4.5% of what we buy are translated works.

Here's what I like about this one for you. It's definitely off the beaten path. You want to read books that are under the radar and at least where you are in Finland, and where I am in the United States, I believe this counts. It has detective roots, but it tells a story that while a mystery wouldn't be accurate to describe it as just that. Here's a set up. And it really does sound like the opening to like a serious modern domestic noir, but that is not what this is. So a man returns from a business trip. His wife has vanished. After he gets a few messages on the answering machine, because that was a thing then, he's able to track her down to a hotel in Bogota. But she does not seem to be in her right mind and he doesn't know what to do about it.

ANNA: Wow.

ANNE: He's got to figure it out and he's chasing down the threads. In that sense, it reads like a detective novel. But the way this is narrated is so interesting. There are multiple voices that overlap and tell different sides of the story, and in these narrative voices, it becomes not just a story about his wife's madness but a story with larger societal themes. It's extremely interesting and unique and it is set in Colombia. How does that sound?

ANNA: I'm - I’m really intrigued by that. I didn't have anything for Colombia on my radar. When I was researching books for the project, some of the books, I wasn't excited about them. You know, I would read the description and be like hm, I don't know. I'll keep looking. Whereas this one, it sounds like okay, I want - I want to pick it up. I'm intrigued already by this mystery/cultural commentary.

ANNE: Something that gives me a little bit of pause it might in some ways feel akin to the short stories we discussed earlier. However, I still think it would be worth taking a chance on.

ANNA: Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm open minded. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Okay. Anna, I have to share two really excellent resources for you embarking on your challenge. Or for anyone who's interested in seeing what a challenge like yours, where you read a book from every country might look like, who just wants to see what the options are or who's considering taking on this challenge for themselves. 'Cause I have to tell you every time we talk to a reader who's embarking on a challenge, we get a lot of emails from readers that say I'm going to do that too.

24 So first, there's a really useful blog. It's called ayearofreadingtheworld.com. It's by a woman named Ann Morgan, and she actually gave a TED talk on her project. She embarked on a project very similar to yours where she wanted to read a book from every country in the world. And the most helpful thing to you on this blog would be the category she calls the list, which is a record of all what she considers to be valid book recommendations that she received before, during and after her project. She did do it in one year. That year was 2012, so 2012 has come and gone, but she still does update the site sometimes and it's definitely worth checking out. And just for fun, you can also see how she decided which countries to include 'cause she speaks to your challenge. Like yes, it was hard to decide exactly which countries I would choose and this is how I did it.

[00:55:15] ANNA: Okay.

ANNE: So that's fun. Another resource to explore is brand new. It's a website just released from one of our previous podcast guests.

ANNA: Oh.

ANNE: So long-time listeners may recognize Melissa Joulwan from What Should I Read Next episode 60. That's called the last page can make it or break it if you're looking in your podcast app. But she and her husband Dave, they just launched a new website and it's called Strong Sense Of Place, and you can find it at strongsenseofplace.com

ANNA: Oh my god that sounds amazing.

ANNE: It's a website and also a podcast dedicated to great books and literary travel. So if you go to their site, you'll see blog posts that are like six classics novels set in memorable manor houses or seven unusual travel guides that will inspire you to visit Prague. Like there's a lot of literary themed booklist posts. Also they have a 2020 reading atlas for subscribers that takes you around the world with book recommendations.

ANNA: Oh, that's so cool.

ANNE: And I have to tell you they have a book recommendation for Peru also. It's The Bedlam ​ Stacks. It's by Natasha Pulley, it's a historical fantasy and they say it takes you high into the ​ Andes mountains of 19th century Peru and deep into the heart of native lore. And I won't read you the whole thing, but Mel says the plot delivers exciting surprises and the end packs an emotional wallop you won't soon forget.

ANNA: That sounds like an amazing resource. I mean, even without this challenge, I love books with a strong sense of place so it's an extra bonus if a book from that country also has a strong sense of place. [ANNE LAUGHS]

25 [00:56:51] ANNE: Mel has been talking about this project for a really long time and I am very excited it is finally live. So I hope that's also a great resource for you in your regular reading life and also for your fun project.

ANNA: Thank you.

ANNE: Okay. So, Anna, we talked about Next Year in Havana by Chanel Cleeton set in Cuba. ​ ​ The House of the Spirits by Isabel Allende set in Chile, and Delirium by Laura Restrepo set in ​ ​ ​ Colombia. Of those three books, what do you think you may read next?

ANNA: I think I'll start with the Cuban one because the trip is coming up soon. That would be the main criteria for these books, but I'm so excited to read all of them. I might just like read them one after another in the order that you recommended. [LAUGHS]

ANNE: Well, I can't wait to hear what you think. Good luck on your challenge. Have an amazing trip, and thank you so much for talking books with me today.

ANNA: I really appreciate it. I think that's going to make my project happen. [LAUGHS]

[CHEERFUL OUTRO MUSIC]

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Anna, and I’d love to hear what YOU think she should read next. That page is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/218 and it’s ​ ​ where you’ll find the full list of titles we talked about today.

Subscribe now so you don’t miss next week’s episode, in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and more. Readers, we have some good ones coming up. We will see you next week!

If you’re on twitter, let me know there @AnneBogel. That is Anne with an E, B as in books -O-G-E-L. Tag us on instagram to share what YOU are reading. You can find me there at annebogel and at whatshouldireadnext. Readers, I have a book coming out, and our newsletter is full of exciting book news like the currently forming launch team for Don't Overthink It. Our newsletter subscribers are the first to get in in all that action. If you're not on the list, fix that now. Go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter to get that free weekly delivery.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen! What Should I Read Next is produced by Brenna Frederick, with sound design by Kellen Pechacek.

Readers, that’s it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening.

And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.

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