Vol. 724 Tuesday No. 104 1 February 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Baroness Tyler of Enfield, Lord Stirrup, Baroness Lister of Burtersett Retirement of Sir and introduction of Lieutenant General Questions Roads: Charging Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland Religions for Peace Police: Numbers Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL] First Reading Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (16th Day)

Grand Committee Children: Sexual Exploitation Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority/Human Tissue Authority Education: Children with Diabetes Railway Heritage Questions for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

£3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldhansrd/index/110201.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted.

THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN, compiled by the House of Commons, gives details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscription: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage.

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1295 Introductions[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Black Rod 1296

Sir Freddie assumed the office of Black Rod in House of Lords April 2009 following a distinguished career in the Army. He had served in Bosnia as part of the NATO Tuesday, 1 February 2011. in the 1990s and as senior British military representative in Iraq in the immediate aftermath 2.15 pm of the conflict there in 2003. In the final years of his career, he was appointed Adjutant General. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Guildford. Upon assuming the office of Black Rod he could have rested on his laurels, but that was not his way. Introduction: Baroness Tyler of Enfield Colleagues describe Sir Freddie as full of energy. Better still, he liked to “get things moving”, said the Yeoman 2.23 pm Usher, in whose lexicon this surely counts as the most fervent of tributes. Claire Tyler, having been created Baroness Tyler of Although he held a grand and historic office, Enfield, of Enfield in the London Borough of Enfield, Sir Freddie had time for everyone—Members and was introduced and took the oath, supported by Baroness staff, senior and junior. To paraphrase, he could walk Barker and Lord Bichard, and signed an undertaking to with the Clerk of the Parliaments and not lose the abide by the Code of Conduct. common touch. Sir Freddie’s appointment coincided with the Introduction: Lord Stirrup establishment of the new Department of Facilities, headed by the Director of Facilities, Carl Woodall. He 2.28 pm and Mr Woodall worked closely and effectively to make a success of the new structures. The fact that Graham Eric Stirrup, Knight, GCB, AFC, having been they can now be taken for granted by his successor will created Baron Stirrup, of Marylebone in the City of be one of Sir Freddie’s lasting legacies to this House. Westminster, was introduced and took the oath, supported I know I speak for the whole House when I say that by Lord Craig of Radley and Lord Boyce, and signed an Sir Freddie’s sudden and serious illness last year was a undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. great shock to us all.

Introduction: Baroness Lister of Burtersett Noble Lords: Hear, hear. Lord Strathclyde: His recovery has been impressive, 2.34 pm not least thanks to the resolve which we have come to admire in him, and to the dedicated support of his Margot Ruth Aline Lister, CBE, having been created wife Jane, to whom we also extend our regards. Baroness Lister of Burtersett, of Nottingham in the County of Nottinghamshire, was introduced and made Sir Freddie’s decision to retire last autumn was no the solemn affirmation, supported by Baroness Kennedy doubt a difficult one to reach. It merits our respect, of The Shaws and Baroness Coussins, and signed an much as it may be tinged with sadness that such a undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. promising period of service to the House has been cut short. We wish him the very best for his continued recovery. Black Rod Your Lordships will be aware that in the months Retirement of Sir Freddie Viggers and introduction since Sir Freddie was taken ill, the Yeoman Usher, of Lieutenant General David Leakey Lieutenant Edward Lloyd-Jukes, has stepped in to serve tirelessly and effectively as acting Black 2.40 pm Rod. Ably supported by the team in Black Rod’s Office—Joanne Fuller, Nicola Rivis and Paul Murphy—he The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord took on the challenge of the ceremonies of the opening Strathclyde): My Lords, I have to inform the House of Parliament and the State Opening at very short that Her Majesty has appointed Lieutenant General notice, and ensured their success. He also played a David Leakey, CMG, CBE, to be Gentleman Usher of role in ensuring that the visit to Parliament by the Black Rod, in succession to Sir Frederick Viggers, His Holiness the Pope in September last year, held KCB, CMG, MBE, and that he is at the Door, ready to magnificently in Westminster Hall, was so memorable. receive your Lordships’ commands. He did all this while continuing to perform his own duties as Yeoman Usher and taking part in countless Noble Lords: Hear, hear. introduction ceremonies for new Peers. We are greatly indebted to him and are in a position to ensure that Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is the custom of the the new Black Rod—lest he were in any doubt—will House to pay tribute to the outgoing Black Rod on the have a formidable team at his disposal. day that his successor assumes the office. Sir Freddie It only remains for me to welcome Lieutenant Viggers held the office of Black Rod for less than two General David Leakey to the House, and to reiterate years, and yet he is as firmly lodged in the House’s our thanks to the outgoing Black Rod, Sir Freddie affection and esteem as any of his equally accomplished Viggers, for the outstanding service that he has given predecessors. That feat alone almost says it all, but to this House, to its Members and to Parliament as a with the leave of the House, I will elaborate just a little. whole. 1297 Black Rod[LORDS] Black Rod 1298

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, days like Indeed, across his role, Sir Freddie has brought to the this are always a mixture of sadness and pleasure—sadness job that impressive and admirable mixture of decisiveness at taking leave of an excellent servant of your Lordships’ and consideration, courteousness and care, wisdom House, and pleasure at welcoming a successor who and judgment, great effort and good humour, not to will, I am confident, give service to this House of the mention that wonderful twinkling of the eye. The fact same order. that he has done all these things at the same time, and Before I speak of either the retiring Black Rod or with unfailing cheerfulness, is both astounding and the new Black Rod, I too should like to join the tribute entirely like him. to the acting Black Rod, the Yeoman Usher, who has He is a very hard act to follow; but I know that the carried out the duties of Black Rod extremely well in leadership of the House, across all sides of the House, the interim period, which concludes today, and stepped is wholly confident that in Lieutenant General David into the breach when circumstances required it. This Leakey we have someone who will rise to that challenge House has greatly benefited from the way that he and for whom the House, when it gets to know him, picked up the torch and not only got on with the job will have an equally warm regard. We welcome him to but did so in a way that was clear, courteous and his new post as Black Rod. We are sad to let his comprehensive. Of course, he will probably also go predecessor go, but the House has, and will, benefit down in history as having the world record in from the services of both. introductions. He deserves our warm thanks for all that he has done, and our thanks, too, for carrying it Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I should like to associate out now, with his interrupted work as an excellent these Benches with the tributes paid to Sir Freddie Yeoman Usher. Viggers. I endorse everything that has been said by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, the Leader of the House, Today we formally lose Sir Freddie Viggers as Black and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon. Rod. We are all thankful that the medical problems Despite the many differences that have surfaced during that took him away from your Lordships’ House have the past few weeks, there is unanimity in your Lordships’ been addressed. He is, very sensibly, retiring. Following House about our feelings for Sir Freddie. It is tragic the remarks by the Leader of the House, I want to that such a promising start to his role as Black Rod touch primarily on two points: first, on Sir Freddie’s should be cut short by his illness. We wish him a ceremonial duties; and, secondly, his help to this House speedy recovery so that he can enjoy his retirement for during the difficult times that we have come through. years to come. Ceremony is what the public mostly see about the Sir Freddie and I had one thing in common: both of work of Black Rod. Each year—although not this us were often vertically challenged. However, hand on year—with the slow progression to the other House heart, I can say that, unlike many noble Lords, we and the striking of the door to the House of Commons, could chat face to face. Although he performed ceremonial the State Opening of Parliament is a key part of the duties, he reflected a warm and friendly personality work of Black Rod. Although Sir Freddie was responsible and a great sense of humour. for just one State Opening of Parliament in his tenure We take many issues for granted, including the in the role, his enactment of his role and the lead that sense of security felt by Members of your Lordships’ he gave in the planning and preparation for the 2009 House. Sir Freddie not only built sound relationships event was entirely in line with the faultless way that with the Serjeant at Arms and the Metropolitan Police such events are carried out in your Lordships’ House. but he also negotiated the security contract. We thank That was, of course, my last State Opening as Leader, him for that. Sir Freddie also helped to resolve matters so for us both it was a very special occasion. relating to parliamentary passes for MEPs and more State Openings are a point in our calendars when liberal filming guidelines. We thank him for his service the hidden wiring of the way in which these things are and he will long remain a friend to many of us for done in our country is both more apparent but at the years to come. same time entirely unseen. However, they are not the only ceremonial work for Black Rod. In his time in his Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, as the noble Baroness, role, Sir Freddie also organised with precision and Lady Royall, has already said, we have both sad and great success the visit of Her Majesty the Queen to the not so sad business before us today. The sad business is Royal Gallery for the unveiling of the bust by Oscar saying goodbye to Sir Freddie Viggers who, in a relatively Nemon. short span of time, endeared himself to us all. His In that kind of work, Black Rod is visibly in the cheery, smiling presence along the corridors, always centre of our ceremonial duties, but Sir Freddie has good tempered and ready for a chat, quickly made him also been invaluable behind the scenes. This House very popular with all of us. That brought added has had to carry out some difficult duties over the past burdens, as we all felt that we could talk to him—we couple of years, including the suspension of Members did so, sometimes at great length—and he never forgot of this House. The role of Black Rod is unsung in the smallest query. All too often, he would pop his these matters, and no doubt it needs to remain that head round my office corner to tell me that he had way. However, the way in which these things are done arranged a pass in double-quick time or magicked if they have to be done—the practicalities and the seats for unexpected visitors or even bent the rules ever specifics—is enormously important. The sensitive and so slightly to allow refreshments in the Moses Room. considerate way in which they have been done in this We have had an anxious year and I know it is with House has hugely benefited from the wisdom and the some relief, mixed with great regret, that Freddie has care that Sir Freddie brought to bear upon them. now decided to retire and to continue with his remarkable 1299 Black Rod[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Roads: Charging 1300 recovery. Our tributes would, as has been shown, be them, and of tribute to Sir Freddie Viggers. I worked incomplete without mentioning the constant support, very closely with him on issues of security. What made encouragement and warmth that his family has shown that such a pleasure, even in the most difficult times, and I too would like to add my own special tribute was that, from the moment he entered the House, he to Jane. showed not only a deep affection for the House but an We now have an entirely happy story: the Yeoman understanding of the need to balance his responsibilities Usher, who was catapulted into the Black Rodship, for the safety of everybody on the Parliamentary has done such a wonderful job. Utterly conscientious, Estate with Parliament’s own commitment to keeping always there, and undertaking hefty responsibilities, the institution open and accessible to the public whom such as the last State Opening, apparently in his stride we serve. It was because he understood those two and with the greatest success. I understand that he dynamics that he was so exceptionally good at his job. spent several years as a logistics expert. In my small Of course, like others, I wish him and Jane well and experience, logistics really means getting the right very much hope that we may have the opportunity to people, with the right stuff, to the right place at the welcome him into the House again to say some personal right time. I certainly think he excelled in doing that in and more informal thanks to him. this House. Noble Lords: Hear, hear. I know that Ted’s office has had to deal with a huge and sudden onslaught of work and I pay tribute to the dedication of his staff; namely, Joanne Fuller and Roads: Charging Nicola Rivis, not forgetting Paul Murphy who spent a Question significant amount of time in the office of the acting Black Rod. To these three, and most of all to Ted, I 2.57 pm offer my profound thanks on behalf of the Cross Benches and so hope that Ted can now relax and enjoy Asked by Lord Bradshaw some untrammeled leisure. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce road pricing for lorries in the The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, from the . Bench of Bishops, I wish to add our expression of gratitude to Sir Freddie Viggers and to express that Earl Attlee: My Lords, we plan to introduce heavy gratitude in terms of his ministry to us. I use the word goods vehicle road user charging to ensure a fairer “ministry” rather consciously. arrangement for UK hauliers. We are still finalising At a time of many introductions to your Lordships’ details of the proposed scheme, which will include House, I want to express my own gratitude for the way off-setting measures to help UK hauliers. The scheme in which Sir Freddie prepared those of us who were must operate within relevant EU legislation and apply coming into the House for the first time. The time and to both UK and foreign hauliers. Primary legislation effort he took over that was quite remarkable: patient, will be required. quality time with those about to go through their introduction. In my case, that was only three days Lord Bradshaw: I thank the noble Earl for that before State Opening and the illness which struck him reply, but why are Her Majesty’s Government introducing down. You would have thought that he had nothing a paper-based system for charging for road use, which on his mind about security or parliamentary procedures will be both expensive to operate and open to abuse, as he gave time to a neophyte bishop. We are all in his when all the other countries in Europe have adopted very considerable debt. or are adopting electronic systems, which have the scope to be adapted to deal with congestion and Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, with environmental damage? the leave of the House, I pay tribute from the Back Benches to Lieutenant General Sir Freddie Viggers. Earl Attlee: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for I endorse all the qualities that have been referred to, his question. First, we have not fixed which scheme we but the memory that will stay with me always is the are going to adopt, but it is unlikely that we will rely way that he spoke to, listened to and worked with purely on a paper vignette. EU states have indeed everyone in your Lordships’ House as an equal. I know moved from paper to electronic vignettes. Various that all the staff, be they cleaners or noble and gallant possibilities are still being considered by the Government, Lords, experienced that quality. I did not believe, after but it is most likely that HGVs will be monitored for he was so tragically taken ill, that that would continue, compliance by the use of automatic number plate but Ted Lloyd-Jukes continued that high standard. In reading linked to a database. welcoming his successor, I say that it will be a hard act to follow but I am certain that that can be achieved. To Lord Rosser: What progress are the Government Sir Freddie and Ted, all the best for the future. making to implement the Conservative election commitment to make foreign hauliers pay appropriate The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, dues when in this country on our roads? Have the before we move to next business, perhaps I may add a Government found a way of doing that by road pricing personal word of welcome to David Leakey, of gratitude without also further penalising UK hauliers, already to the Yeoman Usher and his team, who rose to the being hit by the increase in fuel prices and the occasion in exemplary fashion when the House needed Government’s VAT increase? 1301 Roads: Charging[LORDS] Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland 1302

Earl Attlee: My Lords, the whole object of this The Earl of Glasgow: My Lords, in the absence of policy is to create a level playing field for UK operators, proper road pricing, can the Minister tell me what so we intend to charge a vignette to all operators to steps the Government are going to take to try to operate in the UK, but at the same time to create alleviate congestion, particularly on motorways and off-setting measures for UK hauliers, possibly by reducing trunk roads? the rate of vehicle excise duty, or by other measures. Earl Attlee: My Lords, the objective of the lorry Lord Berkeley: Is the noble Earl aware that the cost road user charging system is purely to create a level of the number plate recognition scheme used in London playing field for UK hauliers who are experiencing is about 30 per cent of the revenue? Why is he not unfair competition from foreign hauliers using cheap going for a distance-based system, which has been fuel purchased on the continent. This equates to an introduced in much of the rest of Europe, where the advantage of about 12p per mile on a maximum-weight costs of collection and fraud are said to be very much artic. less?

Earl Attlee: My Lords, we have learnt from the Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland experience of the London congestion charging scheme, Question but the technology is not completely appropriate for what we are planning. When VOSA patrols the strategic 3.04 pm route network, it will use automatic number plate reading technology to scan all commercial vehicles to Asked By Lord Hoyle ensure that they have a valid vignette. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to limit bonuses to be paid to senior The Countess of Mar: Can the noble Earl explain Royal Bank of Scotland staff. what he means by a vignette?

Earl Attlee: My Lords, in the past a vignette was a The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord piece of paper that was attached to the windscreen, Sassoon): My Lords, UK Financial Investments manages but we are now considering a virtual vignette, which is the Government’s shareholding in the Royal Bank of what I mean by an electronic vignette. It is not necessarily Scotland on an arm’s-length and commercial basis. a piece of paper on the windscreen, but it is a means The Government are clear that remuneration policies for UK and foreign hauliers to pay to use UK roads. at banks need to reward long-term sustainable performance, not incentivise short-term excessive risk taking. We have made it clear to RBS that it should Lord Naseby: Is my noble friend able to clarify have a smaller bonus pool than last year. whether this review will cover the situation of foreign lorry drivers who do not have adequate insurance? Indeed, some of them are not even qualified to drive Lord Hoyle: I thank the Minister for that reply. Is lorries. there not something lacking when we cannot take firmer or more positive action in a bank in which we Earl Attlee: My Lords, the principal authority for have 83 per cent of the shareholding? Does it not give ensuring compliance with UK regulations is the Vehicle the green light to the banks to carry on in the same and Operator Services Agency. It may have a role in way, while innocent people are losing their jobs because ensuring compliance with lorry road user charging, of the folly of the bankers, who are seen to be very and it certainly has a role in ensuring that foreign close friends of this Government? The Government goods vehicles comply with all our regulations. have talked tough and acted weak. Is there not a smell of hypocrisy about? Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: Does the Minister agree that the most advanced and used system in Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Europe is the German one, which is not based on because it enables me to point out that we are hamstrung paper, or even on registration recognition, but on in dealing with the bonus situation at RBS. The previous satellites; that that is the way forward; and that that is Government signed an agreement with RBS that did what the previous Government were exploring and it not cover the payment of bonuses this year, which has been abandoned by the present Government? Will means that our hands are tied. I wish they were not. It they not go back to look at the longer term and to try was the wholly inadequate agreement that the previous to get the best system for our country, not a halfway Government signed that leaves us where we are. house measure? Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that 50 per cent tax will be paid on Earl Attlee: My Lords, the satellite scheme was every pound that is paid in bonuses; and that 12 per abandoned by the previous Government, not by this cent national insurance will be paid by the employer, Government. They abandoned it because they spent plus 2 per cent by the employee? Therefore, 63 per cent £65 million on it and achieved nothing. It is also of the bonuses—I think that is the right number—will important to remember that our problems are different come back to the Exchequer at a time when it needs from the problems experienced by continental countries, revenue. If the money is not paid in bonuses, presumably which have a far higher proportion of foreign heavy it can be offset against losses and the Exchequer will goods vehicles operating on their territory. receive nothing. 1303 Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Religions for Peace 1304

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, indeed those numbers for so it depends very much on the circumstances of the the marginal rates of tax are correct. And that is not individual instrument and the taxpayer. But, of course, the only tax we extract from the banks—far from it. some tax might indeed be levied later on. This Government have put in place a bank levy which will, when it comes into full force, raise an additional Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, will the Minister £2.5 billion out of the banking sector; a larger amount confirm that some of these millionaire and billionaire of money than was taken from the banks in the bankers, and indeed other millionaires and billionaires, previous Government’s bonus tax. use tax havens to salt away their money so that they do Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, can I not actually have to pay tax to the United Kingdom encourage the Minister to use the full resources of the Treasury? What are the Government doing to clamp Treasury to try to find a way of untying his hands? I down on these tax havens? cannot believe that there is not a way around this. Is Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we are doing a lot more the Minister aware that Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman than the previous Government ever did. We have set of RBS, a year ago told us that over 100 Royal Bank aside an additional £900 million of expenditure for of Scotland bankers collected £1 million? What does HMRC over the next spending round—the noble Lord the Minister expect the figure to be this year? Is he may shake his head but that is a fact—and that will aware that I and the overwhelming majority of taxpayers, result in millions-worth of additional revenue each who are having to pay £828,000 of every £1 million year being collected compared with what the previous paid out to RBS bankers, believe that we are entitled Government did. to see the names on the cheques? Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the Royal Bank of Scotland Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: The Minister has described is due to announce its results on 24 February. It the nature of the relationship between the Government normally makes its remuneration disclosures on or and the Royal Bank of Scotland. Is he content with around that date, so we will have to wait. I have no the composition of remuneration committees attached knowledge of the number of bankers who might or to public limited companies? Given the widening gap might no be getting particular levels of bonus. Our between the better paid and the lower paid, is there relationship with the Royal Bank of Scotland is managed not a case for a change in the diversity of the people on a commercial, arm’s-length basis through UK Financial who sit on remuneration committees? Are the Government Investments. prepared to explore this and perhaps look at whether we could see more representative groups on remuneration Lord Eatwell: My Lords, as has been well-publicised, committees, particularly with those in the lower the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer socioeconomic groups being represented? have been entering into negotiations with the banks on bonuses and other activities. Will the noble Lord Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the Financial Reporting give me a categorical assurance that the results of Council continues actively to consider a range of ideas those negotiations will in no way prejudge, constrain for improving corporate governance, and of course in or compromise the findings of the committee into recent months there has been the UK Stewardship banking structures headed by Sir John Vickers? Code and a revision of the UK Corporate Governance Code. I think that the Financial Reporting Council Lord Sassoon: My Lords, with regards to the proposed listens to all good ideas for improving corporate possible settlement with the banks in Project Merlin, governance and is actively on the case. discussions are ongoing with the intention of seeing that the banks pay smaller bonuses than they would Religions for Peace otherwise; that they are more transparent about their Question pay; that they make a greater contribution to local communities and the regional economies; that they 3.11 pm treat customers fairly; and that they lend, materially Asked By Lord Hylton and verifiably, more than they were planning to the businesses of Britain—especially small and medium-sized To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they enterprise—so that they can grow and create this year. propose to mark the 40th anniversary of Religions If we do not get such a settlement, my right honourable for Peace and its work on war, poverty and the friend the Chancellor has made it clear that nothing is environment. off the table. As to the Independent Commission on The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Banking, it is an independent banking commission Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the and it will do its own thing as it sees fit. Government are pleased to note the 40th anniversary Lord Christopher: Will the Minister clarify one of of Religions for Peace, although they do not plan to his answers in relation to the amount that will come to mark it formally.The Government welcome the important the Treasury this year? Will he please explain how—and work Religions for Peace undertakes through its global when—those bonuses that are paid in shares and in a network of religious leaders to promote peace, end new vehicle entitled “cocos” are taxed? poverty, and protect the environment through religious co-operation and dialogue. The United Kingdom works Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the tax rules around with a wide range of non-governmental and civil deferred compensation are complex and depend on society organisations through our international diplomatic the sort of instrument being paid. Some tax on certain and development work. We value their expertise and instruments is levied up front and some is levied later, the contribution they make to our policies. 1305 Religions for Peace[LORDS] Police: Officer Numbers 1306

Lord Hylton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Office and Her Majesty’s Government are determined, positive reply. Would the Government consider giving wherever we see such persecution, to make the strongest publicity to this 40th anniversary, perhaps by means representations through our posts. The noble Lord of a commemorative stamp? Does he agree that religions mentioned three instances of hideous persecution and have come in for a great deal of criticism over their I have a list in front of me of four or five more areas of involvement in violence, so would it not therefore be the world where there is direct persecution of religious appropriate to give them maximum encouragement minorities of a highly intolerant kind. In every instance, when they work constructively for peace? personnel in our posts and in the Foreign Office here in London continuously and vigorously pursue our Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, these efforts concerns, suggestions and proposals that this intolerance should of course receive maximum encouragement should cease forthwith. from all sources, but whether one should necessarily mix up the international relations between Governments Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the with the very valuable work of non-governmental Minister said that there is a reason to separate religious organisations, voluntary organisations, religious organisations from government—on the whole, I suspect organisations and professional groups is a wider question. that many of us might agree—but, on the Question My own view would be that this organisation, which raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, I point out the noble Lord knows a great deal about, has done that Religions for Peace has been working on a code and continues to do immensely valuable work, and in for the holy sites, which will have a particular resonance a way gains prestige and effect by standing clear of the for those who are interested in Jerusalem. This is a pattern of intergovernmental relationships which often matter where Governments must take a serious role has to deal with very hard and sometimes violent and because of the implications for all the parties involved. difficult issues. Have the Government looked at the work done by The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, does the Religions for Peace on the code for the holy sites and, noble Lord agree that an appropriate involvement of if so, do they agree with its outcome? faith communities in discussions relating to human Lord Howell of Guildford: I cannot give a detailed conflict, poverty and the environment could, under answer to that. I accept the noble Baroness’s proposition some circumstances, be highly advantageous? that religion and politics become intertwined, sometimes Lord Howell of Guildford: Yes, I certainly agree disastrously and sometimes to the benefit of those with that proposition. who seek peace, stability and worthwhile aims. I shall look into the matter of the holy sites. It is not a Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, we know situation with which I am familiar but, obviously, that religious disputes often lead to serious conflict. anything to do with Jerusalem and the holy sites has a Would the Government consider encouraging the highly political content and raises all sorts of sensitive establishment of a global forum of faiths that could issues. meet perhaps on a semi-permanent basis to resolve religious and cultural disputes before they get totally Police: Officer Numbers out of hand? Question Lord Howell of Guildford: Again, these are movements and inspirations that best come from beneath, as it 3.18 pm were—from the bottom up rather than being imposed Asked By Lord Kennedy of Southwark by government organisation. In a sense, my noble To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment friend is referring to organisations very similar to they have made of the impact of the fall in the Religions for Peace, with which this Question is concerned; numbers of police officers and police community that is, the desire for the faiths to come together and support officers. bring their message of peace to every corner of the world and to every religion and practice throughout The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- the planet. That is exactly what Religions for Peace Jones): My Lords, it is for the chief constables and has done so successfully for many years past. their police authorities to make decisions on the numbers Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, what resources of police officers and police community support officers are available within the Foreign and Commonwealth within their available resources. We remain confident Office to champion the issue of religious liberties? In that police forces can make the necessary savings these turbulent times, is the Minister able to give some through reductions in middle and back office functions, thought to the plight of the imprisoned Baha’is in while retaining and enhancing their ability to protect Iran; the minorities in the ancient churches, the Chaldeans and serve the public, with a particular focus on and Syrianis in Iraq, who have been facing a campaign maintaining the front line. of asphyxiation; and the Coptic community in Egypt, especially at present following the terrible attacks launched Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank the Minister in Alexandria only a couple of weeks ago? for her reply. With approximately 2,000 fewer police officers and a similar reduction in PCSOs since May Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is quite this year, and given the estimates from the Police right to begin the catalogue—sadly, it goes on even Federation that this figure could rise to 20,000 in the further than he mentioned—of the persecution of next few years, is it not the case that the ordinary religious minorities. The Foreign and Commonwealth family is less safe under the Conservatives? 1307 Police: Officer Numbers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Police: Officer Numbers 1308

Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, there is no simple services that the police themselves wish to deliver to link between police numbers and their impact; what the public clearly include the prevention and investigation matters is how the police are deployed. It is there that of crime and would obviously include the specialist we look to see reforms in police forces so that they forces dealing with certain different kinds of crime. deploy their resources more effectively than is the case at the moment. Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking that she will listen if Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, does the Minister the public, looking at the data on the incidence of agree that it is important that police officers and crime that are being made available to them today, PCSOs are used for what they are trained for and not decide they would rather have officers from their local in roles that can be filled by civilian staff, who may police service responding quickly to an incident of well bring their own special skills? crime than a new-fangled commissioner of police? Are the Government listening to the public? I have yet to meet a member of the public who sees little connection Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I entirely agree between the number of officers in the police service with what my noble friend has just said, as do the and tackling crime. police. Peter Fahy, the chief constable of Greater Manchester, told the House of Commons Home Affairs Baroness Neville-Jones: I am grateful to the noble Committee that it is not a question of police numbers Baroness for mentioning the Government’s initiative but one of deployment and that we need to replace on crime mapping, which was announced today and those who are being used in back offices and get them which in our view will enable people in their own out on the front line. localities to be much better informed than hitherto of the real state of crime in their localities and to have a Lord Condon: My Lords, does the Minister agree direct relationship therefore with the police. It will be that the Government are creating a very turbulent helpful to them that the police commissioners will atmosphere for policing by the combination of cuts, have direct accountability to the localities and not which are understandable against the background of upwards to the Home Secretary. the economic situation, the forthcoming review of pay and conditions, which is due to be announced soon, Lord Davies of Stamford: Is it not quite fatuous to and the reorganisation of policing through elected keep on repeating that there is no relationship between commissioners and reorganisation generally, and that numbers of police officers and good policing? Obviously these changes, cumulatively, will require inspired political effective policing depends on efficient deployment of management and leadership from within the service if the police and it should be the responsibility of any the public are not to suffer? Government at all times to make sure that deployment is optimised. However, once you have the optimised deployment, surely more police automatically means Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, the Government better policing? have great confidence in the leadership of the police and their ability to manage change. The police have Baroness Neville-Jones: I am sure that the noble grasped well the agenda that is before them. Of course Lord will be able to enlighten us as to what the the question of police remuneration is being looked at optimised level is. I did not say there was no link; I said independently and we await the outcome of that. there was no simple link. It is very clear that there is no simple link. Numbers of police officers began to decline Lord Rosser: In a Question for Written Answer two before this Government came into office and the level months ago my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath of crime continues to decline. The level of crime began asked for a definition of “front-line police services”. to decline in 1995, well before our predecessors came As of yesterday, he still had not had a response. Why into office, and when police numbers were stable. not? Can the Minister now give the House the There is no simple link between these two things. Government’s definition of the front-line police services that they said they would protect from the cuts? Does Lord Rooker: How many briefing meetings has the the definition include the many specialist units, including noble Baroness had in the Home Office about a Question the rape and domestic violence units, all actively involved that has been awaiting answer since 1 December? It along with officers on the streets in the fight against would be quite normal for a delayed Question like that crime, which fell by 43 per cent under the previous to be the subject of considerable ministerial questioning, Government? Can the Minister give the House an so why has it not been answered? How many briefing assurance that none of the approximately 2,000 full-time meetings has she had? police officers already lost since the election was involved Baroness Neville-Jones: I am afraid I am at a loss to in those front-line police services? Finally, in the light know to what Question the noble Lord is referring, of the Minister’s previous answer, is she aware of the but I will look into it. recent surveys that clearly show the link between numbers of police officers and levels of crime? Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I wrote down very carefully the answer that the Minister gave to a previous question. Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, the number of She said that there is no link between the number of police officers has been reduced and the level of crime officers and the level of crime. Does it therefore follow continues to fall. There is no simple link between the that if we had no police officers that would not affect numbers of police officers and the levels of crime. The the level of crime? 1309 Police: Officer Numbers[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1310

Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I made it quite Lord Rooker: This is the first amendment I have clear that I said “no simple link”. moved on this Bill this year, for those who keep count of our proceedings. I kept clear of amendments relating Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, in answer to a to Part 2 of the Bill. I will not be long in speaking to previous question of mine the Minister said that the this amendment. Neither the Electoral Commission responsibility for cuts in policing was solely with the nor anyone else, for that matter, has ever carried out chief constables, which I agree is correct. There are, an exercise across the United Kingdom to explain however, a number of functions and skill sets that the officially the mechanics of voting systems, whatever police have that are nationwide. Will she agree to they may be. In this case, they are the alternative vote ensure that the Government look at these skill sets and as proposed in the Bill and first past the post. capabilities to ensure that chief constables do not The Electoral Commission might decide to explain inadvertently remove those capabilities? about the alternative vote and might need to indicate that there are at least three alternative vote systems, none of which is proportional. It might decide that it Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I assure the noble has to counteract the media referring to the alternative Lord that we will certainly be looking at the maintenance vote inaccurately—as, indeed, we in this House have of national level capabilities and that is of course why agreed that the Deputy Prime Minister did when referring we have taken such care in the case of counterterrorism, to it as a system guaranteeing that MPs would be where the funding has been kept stable. One of the elected by 50 per cent of the electorate, which of tasks of the National Crime Agency is to ensure that course is not what will happen under AV in the Bill. national capabilities are maintained. That simply cannot happen in every case. It is true that I tabled this amendment a long time Lord Imbert: I understand it will cost a £1 million ago and that a lot of water has gone under the bridge. or so if the new elected political commissioners are My noble friend Lord Lipsey has two amendments of put into position to oversee and to hire and fire chief substance in this group. My simple view is that it constables. Would it not be better to spend that money should not be left to the complete discretion of the on employing more police officers or PCSOs? Electoral Commission as to whether or what information it puts into the public domain. There should be some Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, the Government kind of constraint in the Bill, hence the modesty of my believe in the notion of elected commissioners and amendment and, indeed, the amendments of substance direct accountability to localities. It is for that reason which my noble friend has tabled. He will go into that we are introducing this reform. We believe that it those in much greater detail than I intend to do. will result in more effective policing and more direct I intend to be brief. accountability to the people the police serve. As I have said, I wanted to raise the issue about the discretion of the Electoral Commission over this enterprise which, I repeat, no official body has ever undertaken Parliament Square (Management) Bill in the United Kingdom. It is fraught with some difficulty [HL] and, in some ways, excitement, as the project has never First Reading been undertaken. However, it is one where we in Parliament should say that the Bill should have a little more detail, rather than simply leaving it to whatever 3.28 pm steps the commission might think are appropriate or inappropriate. I beg to move. A Bill to make provision for the management of Parliament Square, and for connected purposes. The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): Ihaveto inform the Committee that if this amendment is agreed The Bill was introduced by Lord Marlesford, read a first to, I cannot call Amendment 109 by reason of pre- time and ordered to be printed. emption. Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 110ZZA and 110ZZB, which are grouped Parliamentary Voting System and with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for the purposes of this debate. Quite recently, Constituencies Bill although it actually feels like months ago, these matters Committee (16th Day) came up at a reasonably early stage of the Committee, when the Minister jumped to his feet and said that 3.28 pm they fell much more naturally to being discussed under Schedule 1 to the Bill. I do not know whether the Minister—he is not with us this afternoon—hoped Schedule 1 : Further provisions about the referendum then that by the time we got around to Schedule 1, we would have forgotten all about them and let them go. Amendment 108 As the Committee knows, on this Bill we are, quite rightly, grinding extremely fine so here they are again. Moved by Lord Rooker The amendments concern the steps that the Electoral 108: Schedule 1, page 20, line 1, leave out “may take whatever Commission must take to get the electorate informed. steps they think appropriate to” and insert “must” Perhaps I might recap on a debate that we were having 1311 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1312 last night. The background to this is the very wide lack natural grasp of voting systems is quite small, as I of understanding of the alternatives to be put before have shown. The number of people who understand the British people in the referendum, whenever that the issues involved on voting reform is also quite may come. I illustrate this from a poll with a large small. To produce language which is generally sample taken by YouGov in September. It asked people comprehensible is quite complicated. whether they had heard of AV and, if so, whether they I know the Electoral Commission tries hard to get knew what it meant. To summarise, one-third said that its language right. Indeed, it is contemplating producing they had heard of AV and had some idea of what it a consultative document on a public information meant. They did not define what “some idea” meant booklet—not exactly a leaflet but a booklet on the and, if they were examined further, we might find that referendum. I have not studied it in detail but it is the that was a rather optimistic interpretation of their true kind of thing which could be done with an examination state of knowledge. One-third had heard of AV but not just for the content but for the clarity of the had no idea of what it meant. One-third had not heard language in which it is expressed. of AV; they also had no idea of what it meant, which is It is perfectly true that there is this draft booklet; it perhaps not surprising since they had never heard of is true that the Electoral Commission is of course it. That is a long way from where we would want to be planning information activities, and it would be wrong when we get around to the referendum. to suggest otherwise. But we, as parliamentarians, I am not using this to make a speech for AV or have a right to expect certain things of the Electoral against it. My position is perfectly well known. I simply Commission and to lay down in the Bill that it must make the point that the better informed those participating perform certain functions. This is all going to be done in this referendum are, when it comes about, the more in a terrific rush, and the commission may get into the result will have legitimacy and stability, because we some sort of difficulty, as its resources are not very will be able to have confidence that the people really great for the task ahead of it, so something has to be have reached the verdict they wish to reach, on reflection, dumped. If it is in the Bill, the thing that is dumped and that chance factors have not simply swayed it. cannot be the exercise it mounts to make sure that the This is not the job of the Electoral Commission only; public are properly informed. In other words, it is it is the job of the campaign organisations on both right that the intention of the commission be underlined sides, of our national media—I thought I might get a by Parliament and by provisions of the kind that I laugh for that—of politicians and of those who are propose in this amendment, which is a companion not political in the party sense but who are interested amendment to the wider amendment so ably moved in politics. by my noble friend Lord Rooker. These are great issues for our future as a democracy and all those have a role to play, but the Electoral Lord Martin of Springburn: Has the noble Lord put Commission has a role. It has been created to play a a price on such a leaflet being delivered to every role and it is right that Parliament should give it some household? How would the Electoral Commission specific guidance on the minimum activity which we receive the funds for such a leaflet? I imagine that it expect it to undertake in playing that role. If the would be a very expensive proposition because of not referendum were to go ahead on 5 May—and I know only the publishing but delivery to every elector. It there are those in this Committee and the government would mean that the commission would have to employ Front Benches who support that—there will be only part-time leaflet deliverers, which would be a costly some 10 weeks between the passage of the legislation exercise in itself. and the day when the people deliver their verdict. Lord Lipsey: I am grateful to the noble Lord for My two amendments are straightforward. First, that intervention, which enables me to repeat my they ask that the Electoral Commission prepares a earlier point. It seems that the Electoral Commission leaflet that summarises the meaning of the question is planning something of this sort anyway, so the cost before people and what its implications would be. It is not additional to what appears to be planned, unless summarises, in an impartial way—because the Electoral it is to be dropped down the line. Commission owes its whole role to its impartiality—the arguments for and against AV and for and against first Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords— past the post, so that any elector wishing to study the matter can see a short summary of the arguments. Lord Lipsey: Could I finish answering the noble That is then distributed to every household in the Lord’s points before I take a further point from him? country so that everybody gets their chance to read it. We have a costing for this referendum. It is not nil but A fairly straightforward proposition, you would think. some of us think that it is well worth it. Democracy The second amendment is slightly tongue in cheek comes with a price and it is a price that is very well and says that the leaflet should be examined by the worth paying. On an issue of this magnitude, the Plain English Campaign. Actually, from my own relatively small figures that would be involved in an experience as a journalist on the Economist, I think exercise of this kind are part of that worthwhile price. that an Economist journalist would be an alternative because these are both groups of people who are very Lord Martin of Springburn: It is one thing for an used to making sure that the language in which organisation to publish a leaflet. The Forestry Commission complicated ideas are expressed in order to communicate or the National Trust could publish a leaflet that is clear. It is a serious purpose behind a tongue-in-cheek organisations could pick up on a voluntary basis. amendment because the number of people who have a However, it is another thing to publish a leaflet and 1313 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1314

[LORD MARTIN OF SPRINGBURN] leaflet to be “impartial and unbiased”, we would be give an assurance that it will be delivered to every incorporating a matter of judgment that it appears to elector—or every elector’s home—throughout the United me would, in certain circumstances, keep the courts—I Kingdom. That is a costly exercise by any stretch of am conscious that there are many noble and learned the imagination. The amendment also asks to put into Lords here—occupied for years. I see the noble Lord, legislation that there shall be a leaflet, whereas the Lord Phillips, smiling, as he knows that his firm could Electoral Commission might say that local radio, or do it. national television for that matter, is the better way to communicate. Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Lipsey: I am grateful for those points, too. On Lord Newton of Braintree: I am not saying that that the latter point, these are not alternatives; they are would happen. designed to supplement each other, but a leaflet that can be studied at leisure and revisited has a different I think that we need to rely on the good faith of the impact from that of a television programme, although Electoral Commission, which clearly seeks to do I agree that they are complementary. As far as cost is everything in an unbiased and impartial way, but concerned, we need to keep a sense of proportion. making that a statutory requirement would raise a lot After all, every household gets a poll card. Nobody of questions that we might not want to answer. thinks, “Oh God, it is so expensive sending these poll cards. People don’t need them to vote. Elections are so Lord Soley: I have considerable agreement with the unimportant that we could avoid the cost of a poll noble Lord, Lord Newton, on the very difficult issues card in future”. Indeed, I believe that electoral law raised by this profoundly important set of amendments. provides for the political parties to send one leaflet to If my memory serves me correctly, the last time that I every household in the country. The noble Lord, who discussed the matter with the Electoral Commission, knows much more about the House of Commons than it was talking about preparing a leaflet or pamphlet on I have ever known, will correct me if I am wrong but I this very issue. I think that the same issue came up on believe that also takes place. We should not think that Second Reading, too. The difficulty is ensuring that sending a leaflet to every household would mean great the leaflet is right and unbiased. I phoned the Electoral disproportionate expenditure. It is not a major logistical Commission this morning to find out the latest position exercise of its kind and will not cause the budget and, perhaps slightly worryingly, both the numbers deficit to soar where otherwise it would shrink. that I normally use and get through on without any trouble were unobtainable. I am sure that there is a Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, continuing very good explanation and that I will be able to get my attempt to be reasonably even-handed in these through soon, but that means that I cannot tell the debates, I have a variety of views. House where the Electoral Commission is up to on On the previous exchange, which I had not expected, this important issue. I am entirely on the side of the noble Lord, Lord The amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Lipsey Lipsey, because I am aware that there are endless and Lord Rooker, spell out the right principle that we examples of requirements or practices that ensure that need material that says, in plain English, what an information is delivered to all households in the country. alternative voting slip will look like and so on. However, I guess that the latest such example is the widespread as soon as we get into explaining how the system circulation of leaflets on how to avoid flu during the works, we are in much more difficulty. It is very hard winter, but there have certainly been electoral examples to write a leaflet on how a voting system works— as well. particularly how it works in comparison to an existing On the amendments, my feelings are mixed. I half system—without getting into a minefield of problems sympathise with the amendment of the noble Lord, about possible outcomes or computations of the effect Lord Rooker; I am worried about the first amendment of one’s vote. There is a lot in Amendment 109A, in of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey—for reasons that I the name of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer, will come back to—but I support his second amendment that if we are to go down this road, having the Speaker’s very strongly because, whatever materials are produced, committee involved in the Electoral Commission would it would be helpful if they were looked over by someone be a good idea to provide some political insight. who writes the kind of English that everybody can Otherwise, I can envisage that the leaflet that might understand. One of our latest arrivals, the noble Baroness, come out could produce literally thousands of phone Lady Lister, will recognise from our association some calls from political parties and their agents up and 30 years ago that I used to be driven to distraction by down the land saying, “This is biased”. That is only a social security material being produced in a form that short step away from the courts. The same point might no normal person could understand. I seem to remember be made about the amendment of the noble Lord, that we got the Plain English Campaign involved to Lord Phillips of Sudbury—we would get into an absolute try to help us improve things, and I think that they have minefield. improved. Some effort needs to be put into making sure I hope that the Government will give this serious that whatever goes out uses terms that can be understood. thought. The Government may already have talked to the Electoral Commission—perhaps they had another 3.45 pm phone number that worked this morning that I did not Lastly and briefly, my reservations about the have. I know that the commission is exercised by the intermediate amendment of the noble Lord, Lord issue and is keen both to get the information out to the Lipsey, are that, by putting in a legal requirement for a public about the importance of the referendum and to 1315 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1316 convey information to people about the different voting The plain English idea must be a good suggestion. system. However, if we are to go down the road of Describing these two systems in the best and most requiring rather more detail on the effect, we have to limpid form that John Bull can understand on a bad look much more carefully at Amendment 109A in the night is essential. That amendment would be a step in name of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer, the right direction. which would at least provide for some political control. Without that, the Electoral Commission will, frankly, Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, before getting be hung out to dry and probably crucified as well. to the substantive remarks that I wanted to make, as I hope that the Government will give this important we have heard two interesting speeches I wonder whether issue careful thought, given that, as my noble friend it might be in order for the noble Lord the Leader of Lord Lipsey said, we have done so little on this and the the House, on behalf of the House itself, formally to changes will all come very suddenly. We must make a draw to the attention of the Electoral Commission the major effort to convey to the public the importance of fact that noble Lords on both sides of the House this vote. On that point, my noble friend Lord Lipsey appear to have had considerable difficulty getting in is absolutely right. The problem is what should be put touch with the Electoral Commission by telephone. into or left out of the leaflet. That is obviously a rather disturbing situation, particularly when everybody agrees that the Electoral Commission Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I completely must play the key role in keeping the public informed support the spirit of this group of amendments. If all as we move forward towards this referendum—if, indeed, goes well—I nearly said “according to plan” but that we do. Although it would be nice to think that the staff would be giving a hostage to fortune—and the Bill of the Electoral Commission spent their free time gets through in time for the referendum to be held in reading Hansard of either House, that may be a rather May, there will be no time to lose. I think that every hopeful assumption to make. Member of the House concurs with the spirit that, if we are to have a referendum, we should ensure that it Lord Soley: The Electoral Commission staff do works as well as it possibly can and that as many as read Hansard. Indeed, I suspect that they watch some possible of our fellow countrymen and women take of the debate live, so perhaps I will soon get a text—I part in it. hope so. I agree wholly with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, which would remove the discretion Lord Davies of Stamford: I hope that, by whatever by simply obliging the Electoral Commission to provide means, the Electoral Commission will address the information about each of the two voting systems. If issue raised by these two incidents, which hardly look the Government accept Amendment 108 in the name as if they are purely a coincidence. If noble Lords of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the first provision in cannot get an answer from the Electoral Commission, Amendment 110ZZA, in the name of the noble Lord, what are the chances of an ordinary member of the Lord Lipsey, would be superfluous. public doing so? I suspect that that is a matter of On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord concern not just to me but to the whole House. Newton—he cast a fly in my direction, at which I leapt—micro legislation is indeed food for lawyers and I am all agin it. However, I consider that the more The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord dangerous provision in the amendment of the noble Strathclyde): My Lords, it may be helpful if I deal with Lord, Lord Lipsey, in terms of “lawyerisation”, is its this issue because I understand that the Electoral second provision, which would require that the leaflet, Commission has just moved offices. That is why the “summarise the main arguments for and against first-pass-the-post old phone number does not work. The new phone and the alternative vote”. numbers should be available in the normal way and we There is much more room for lawyers to haggle over can make them available. If anybody wants them, they that before Her Majesty’s courts than there is over the can call my office and we can get them to them. I am “impartial and unbiased” provision. However, I suggest assured that the Electoral Commission takes great that the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, should sleep on his care and notice of what happens here. amendment, given that its only essential provision—that is, the distribution to all households—should be taken Lord Bach: Can anyone in the country ring your care of by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord office or just noble Lords? Rooker. If the Electoral Commission is required to provide information about each of the two systems, Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I think there is a surely that means delivery of information to every greater likelihood of the Electoral Commission reading house. If there is any doubt about that, a change can Hansard than members of the general public. Maybe I be brought forward at the next stage. am wrong about that. I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Soley, because I did exactly as he did and had the same rather However, I can also say that the Electoral Commission’s ghostly result. I tried three Electoral Commission website is really excellent and a great deal of the numbers, which were all disconnected. However, I was information that we have been discussing this afternoon informed a week ago by the commission that it is not is on it. I will give a fuller response later on but I think disconnected and that it will definitely produce a the noble Lord, Lord Low, is trying to get in. leaflet that will be delivered to every household, so perhaps we can sleep soundly on that. Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords— 1317 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1318

Lord Davies of Stamford: I hope that I did not give the victim or whether so-and-so stole the goods is a the impression that I had concluded my remarks. Of matter of fact. Here, we are asking for the production course I shall give way in a moment to the noble Lord, of an impartial and unbiased opinion— Lord Low, with great pleasure but I suspect he wishes to speak to his amendment and perhaps the right time Lord Anderson of Swansea: Is it not a fact also that, to do that will be when I have concluded my remarks, when a jury comes to its determination, it has had the which will not be very lengthy. points for and the points against put not by some Just before I leave the issue of the Electoral impartial body but by counsel for the prosecution Commission, I have to respond to the Leader of the before counsel for the defence? Therefore, maybe the House. Those of us with a background in the private two sides of this argument should set out the case sector know that when you move offices and no longer themselves. answer your telephone you go out of business very quickly, and I do not think that that is a very satisfactory Lord Davies of Stamford: I do not know whether I excuse coming from a public sector body either. should be grateful for my noble friend’s intervention I very much support both my noble friends Lord or not. I totally agree with him on the one hand, but Rooker and Lord Lipsey in the amendments they put on the other he has just taken away the point I was forward and the initiatives they have taken, although I about to make myself. I was hoping I was going to be have a number of reservations about the wording of the first in the debate to raise those particular solutions. one amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, However, he is perfectly right and I think, before the which I shall come to in a moment. I think they must House accepts the words that would actually go in the have had the same reaction as I did when I read the Bill, it needs to think very carefully about putting a Bill. There is a rather marked antithesis, and a slightly responsibility on any human being or set of human disturbing one, between paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 1: beings to produce an opinion on something which is “The Electoral Commission must take whatever steps they impartial and unbiased. think appropriate to promote public awareness about the referendum and how to vote in it”, 4pm and paragraph 9(2), which then states: The House could have an interesting philosophical “The Electoral Commission may take whatever steps they discussion about this during the afternoon. It might think appropriate to provide, for persons entitled to vote in the be a slightly esoteric discussion for a legislative assembly, referendum, information about each of the two voting systems but it would be intellectually stimulating. I do not referred to in the referendum question”. intend to go into it for very long. Perhaps it would be Particularly coming straight after “must”, “may” reads fair to summarise, in a way that nobody will want to very weakly—it seems almost a sort of casual disagree with, that there are two strands of post- afterthought—and I do not think that is good enough. Enlightenment philosophy, the positivist and the anti- If we are to have a referendum in this country on quite positivist. The anti-positivist tradition of Hegel and a complex new constitutional issue, it is absolutely Heidegger—the post-modernists—would say that there essential that members of the public have the opportunity is no such thing as objective reality, that no one’s to understand what it is all about. I therefore think it opinion is ever better than anybody else’s and that you very reasonable that we should say “must” in cannot meaningfully suggest that it is. That would paragraph 9(2) which, of course, is the effect of the dispense altogether with the idea of producing this amendment of my noble friend Lord Rooker. definitive, impartial and unbiased opinion. I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Lipsey Those in the positivist tradition would say that that it is right to produce a pamphlet on the subject. there is such a thing as objective reality and that one As one of his own amendments states, the information can apprehend it through sense impressions, so that it effort should include the publication of a pamphlet would be perfectly possible to say, if one were making and does not exclude other things. I hope that the a statement of fact, that it is impartial and unbiased. Electoral Commission will have a budget which can This is also the case with analytic statements that are indeed be used, as the noble Lord, Lord Martin, has true by definition: they, too, could be made impartially suggested, for television coverage of the issue as well, and in an unbiased fashion. However, it would be or even possibly local radio, as he suggested. That is quite unreasonable to suggest that a normative highly desirable. statement—for example, about the strengths and weaknesses of a particular voting system—could ever I have to say, however, that my breath was slightly be stated in a way that could be described as impartial taken away by the phrase in the third sentence of my or unbiased. noble friend Lord Lipsey’s Amendment 110ZZA: Leaving aside philosophy and turning to practical “The leaflet shall be impartial and unbiased”. politics, I cannot imagine that anybody in the highly I found myself reading that two or three times and charged political debate over this referendum would thinking carefully whether a leaflet could be “impartial ever credit the other side with a statement that they and unbiased”—indeed, whether any opinion of this regarded as impartial and unbiased. If they disagreed kind could be “impartial and unbiased”. Of course, as with anything in a summary of the case for or against a practical issue, we regularly expect certain people produced by the Electoral Commission or any other and certain functions to be impartial and unbiased— body, they would certainly denounce it as not being judges and juries would be an obvious example. However, impartial or unbiased. That would tend to discredit they are being impartial and unbiased in relation to the Electoral Commission if it was the originator of the establishment of a fact: whether so-and-so killed that summary or opinion. That is why I come back to 1319 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1320 my noble friend’s suggestion, which I was intending to moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I got a bit make myself, that it might be much more effective if more worried as the speech by the noble Lord, Lord the commission allowed itself to be simply the medium Davies, continued because I was getting a message of distribution of two documents, one to be produced from my BrailleNote here that the battery was about by the pros and the other by the antis. to run out. I think there is just enough left for me to I am old enough to remember the first national say that I rise briefly in support of this group of political campaign in which I played a part, namely amendments. Amendment 109 is in my name and is the 1975 referendum on our remaining in the European substantially to the same effect as Amendment 108, Community, as it was then called. We did exactly that. moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. Both require The pros and the antis were both invited to produce a the Electoral Commission to provide information about summary of their views to a given length, which were each of the voting systems referred to in the referendum distributed free to every household in the country. question. In conjunction with Amendment 110, which That is the system we have through the freepost we discussed last night, these amendments place on opportunity that every political party has at a general the Electoral Commission a duty to take steps to election to distribute its manifesto to every household ensure that disabled voters are able to access information in every constituency. and support to facilitate their understanding and participation in voting and elections. Lord Grocott: I wonder if my noble friend would I also welcome Amendment 110ZZA, moved by the make a judgment if I offered him what I consider to be noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. All I would say is that steps an impartial, unbiased and factual statement about need to be taken to ensure that the leaflet referred to in the alternative vote system, namely that the system the amendment is made accessible to people who have offered in this referendum is used by just three countries difficulty in reading print. For example, the leaflet in the world and one of them is trying to get rid of it. would need to advertise on it—in at least 14-point That seems to me to be a statement of fact: is that type, I would hope—the availability of other formats something that he would recommend for a leaflet? such as large print, Braille and audio, and a number to call to request these formats. Furthermore, alternative Lord Davies of Stamford: Indeed, as a statement of formats would have to be available at the same time as fact—I return to my philosophical discussion—that the print version, otherwise people who cannot read would be unexceptionable and unchallengeable. Of print would be put at a disadvantage compared to course, the way that a fact is stated immediately opens those who are able to read the printed leaflet. the author of the document to the charge that he or On Amendment 110ZZB, the requirement to seek she has been selective and could equally well have set the advice of the Plain English Campaign on information out the facts in an equally amusing or effective way materials, although it might strike a blow at the legal that brought fire to bear on the other side of the profession, seems a sensible suggestion considering question. My noble friend summarises brilliantly exactly the complexity of explaining the rival voting systems the problems that will be encountered by anybody, and it could certainly help in making the material however honest a man or woman he or she is, who sets accessible to people with learning disabilities, who out to produce something that will be characterised by may have need of an EasyRead version. Therefore I the law of the land—by statute—as impartial and support all the amendments in this group. unbiased. That is probably asking something that no human being can do. None of us could produce an Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I follow the opinion that was genuinely unbiased and impartial. It noble Lord, Lord Low, who has been a great champion is philosophically impossible and practically impossible of those with disabilities in the House. He shows some in any political argument. of the reasons for this House in the way in which he is Therefore, while I totally agree with what my noble able to contribute. I should like to say briefly how friend Lord Lipsey says, Parliament needs to place an much I agree with what my noble friend Lord Davies obligation on the Electoral Commission to ensure that has said. We have had many allusions in the debate, the public are properly informed about the choice that often in the small reaches of the morning, but I do not they must make, and about the characteristics of the think that Hegel and—was it Nietzsche? two electoral systems. It is absolutely crucial that the Electoral Commission itself does not in any way risk Lord Davies of Stamford: It was Heidegger. its own credibility and integrity by putting its name to such a document. The suggestion that the Electoral Lord Anderson of Swansea: I do not think that Commission should distribute documents by the two Hegel and Heidegger have been alluded to so far. campaigns would be a much better one as a result. However, following that philosophic allusion, I wonder whether one might follow the Marxist dialectic and Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I apologise to the have a thesis, an antithesis and a synthesis. If there noble Lord, Lord Davies. I did not mean to interrupt were two umbrella organisations, we would have to him. I thought that he had got to the end of his give thought as to who would compose these arguments remarks. Indeed, I am extremely grateful that he continued on both sides of the divide; and this assumes that there because I thought that, before he moved to the outer are people who are acceptable and that there are reaches of philosophy, he made a very strong point relevant umbrella organisations. This will probably be when he referred to the sharp antithesis between “must” the case, even though there may be differences within and “may” in the clause. I thought that that point lent those umbrella organisations. If there are such considerable additional weight to Amendment 108, organisations, it may be that they would have to 1321 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1322

[LORD ANDERSON OF SWANSEA] it would be a ragbag of views. There would be a great submit, in draft, their proposals to the Electoral variety of views in that. To have a legitimate group on Commission, which could ensure that they are broadly either side of the argument will prove extraordinarily acceptable. difficult. Let us assume that eventually one can fund a Let me come first to the synthesis and then I shall group, an umbrella organisation, on both sides. Clearly, give way to my noble friend. The Electoral Commission some of the arguments are likely to be omitted, hence itself, having looked at the thesis and the antithesis, in the reason for the Electoral Commission to vet those the normal direct way, can then come forward with its drafts which have been put out by the other organisations. synthesis of those areas which it thinks are of importance In seeking to be impartial, in seeking to reconcile and for the voter and which have not been touched on by in seeking to bridge that gap and to be a Marxist the protagonists. synthesis following Hegel and Heidegger, clearly the Electoral Commission itself may have to play that role Lord Davies of Stamford: I am grateful to my noble and seek to put forward a more objective middle way friend for giving way. My concept was that the individual to the two groups if they can be found to work together. elector would provide his or her own synthesis from the materials provided by the two campaigns. I totally 4.15 pm agree with my noble friend, from a practical standpoint, that my suggestion will not work unless there are two Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I suspect that clear campaigns run by some accepted umbrella the reason why the Electoral Commission has taken organisation. It would, of course, be for the Electoral the phone off the hook is that it is suffering from a Commission to satisfy itself that those two campaigns surfeit of parliamentary advice. I do not doubt that it were generally national umbrella organisations, accepted always welcomes the advice of my noble friend Lord by all the groups within each particular side of the Soley, but none the less, every now and again, it needs campaign. That worked in 1975, as my noble friend, a respite. That is why I tend to favour Amendment 109 who was also alive at the time, will recall, but it would in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston. not work if there were just a whole lot of different He said that the words of his amendment are largely groups and multifarious and multifaceted voices of to the same effect as those of the amendment in the various kinds on both sides. That would be a very name of my noble friend Lord Rooker, but there is an untidy and very difficult campaign. I hope that the important distinction. The noble Lord’s amendment rather more clear-cut choice, which the public were would not take out the words that the Electoral offered in 1975 on another important constitutional Commission, issue, could be replicated. It would be for the Electoral “may take whatever steps they think appropriate to”. Commission to decide that point. My noble friend Lord Rooker’s amendment leads to the more prescriptive approach embodied in the Lord Anderson of Swansea: My noble friend’s thesis amendment of my noble friend Lord Lipsey. I tend to assumes that there are people who are prepared to be side with the noble Lord, Lord Newton, on this: it in an umbrella organisation for the alternative vote. may be wise to give a pretty large discretion to the The problem is that no one actually favours the alternative Electoral Commission as to how it handles the matter. vote. In a way, the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford: Mr Clegg? Lord Lipsey demonstrates the difficulty for the Electoral Commission in performing what would seem a pretty Lord Anderson of Swansea: In God-like isolation, simple function of providing information to those he may well. I suspect that even Mr Clegg, if it is who will be about to vote in the referendum. For before three o’clock in the afternoon, may well reach example, we have already discussed the requirement in the view that he prefers other systems. There is a my noble friend Lord Lipsey’s amendment that it should, variety of systems and it is clear that the alternative “summarise the main arguments for and against first-past-the-post vote is a totally orphan system. Certainly, the Conservative and the alternative vote”. Party does not favour it. On the whole, it prefers the My noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford explained first past the post system. At the time of the last in some depth the reasons why that is not easy. election, the Labour Party did, but clearly the public— Unlike my noble friends Lord Davies and Lord Anderson, I think it would be desirable to have a Lord Tyler: I wonder whether the noble Lord is phase of information and education to enable electors, aware that the leader of his party supports AV. as far as possible, to understand from impartial sources Lord Anderson of Swansea: That just shows the the nature of the choice that they will be invited to interesting way in which there are many rather odd make. Later, we get into the propaganda war and the bedfellows. If people were given an absolute choice, I clash of the campaigns. At that point, if people have do not think that they would put that first on their list. been provided with neutral information, they may well Certainly Mr Clegg would prefer another system; be better able to assess for themselves the merits of the Mr Cameron would prefer another system; and, although arguments put forward by the two sides in the campaign. I have not spoken to the leader of my party on this, or It is desirable that something such as my noble indeed on any other matter, I suspect that he also friend Lord Lipsey proposes should be achieved, but I would prefer another system. So we come to the point do not doubt that it is exceedingly difficult to summarise that no one would presumably claim support for the those arguments objectively and in an “impartial and alternative vote. I can imagine, on the other hand, a unbiased” fashion, as the amendment requires. If it is whole series of problems because if there were to be to be done, it will take time. That is one reason why it an umbrella organisation against the alternative vote, is so fortunate that the Committee previously accepted 1323 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1324 the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord to summarise the meaning of the referendum question. Rooker to provide flexibility for the date of the referendum I see difficulty in that because one would hope that the until October. As other noble Lords have said, if we question that would be put to people in the referendum are going to do this, we need to do it properly. It is too would be so succinct and easy to comprehend that it good an opportunity to waste. It is too important an would be incapable of being summarised in the way issue to be rushed and muddled. If people are, in an that my noble friend has suggested. There is a good extraordinarily rare opportunity, to have the chance to deal to think about. decide whether the existing electoral system should be My final worry is that a leaflet coming through the retained or another put in its place, they need time to letterboxes of the land would on a great many doormats reflect carefully on the basis of a secure understanding be regarded as junk mail and the chances are that it of the issues. I think that it will be very difficult for would not even get read. How the Electoral Commission that process of information, education and the gaining is to acquit itself of its responsibilities and inform the of understanding to be achieved in the very short people of this country about the nature of choice they interval that now remains before 5 May. have to make bristles with difficulty, and I am not at Also, if the arguments are to be set forth by the all convinced that we should be very prescriptive or Electoral Commission in an impartial and unbiased contend that we know best how this should be done. way, as has been suggested earlier, there is the risk that I therefore tend to favour the amendment tabled by people who are dissatisfied with the way in which the the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston. arguments on one side or another are set out will complain and might seek remedy by way of judicial review. The Lord Pannick: This matter should be decided by whole process could become very vexed. My noble pragmatism rather than philosophy. I suggest to the friend’s amendment demonstrates the extreme difficulty noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, that the contrast of the Electoral Commission doing that job but, none between paragraph 9(1) and paragraph 9(2) makes the less, it is a job that it would be good if it were done. perfect sense. The Electoral Commission has a duty to inform people about the existence of the referendum Another difficulty about achieving an impartial and about how to vote in it, and so it should. It is and unbiased explanation of the choices to be made is given a discretion about whether it attempts to summarise that academic evidence shows that the more people the arguments on both sides. The reason it is given a understand about the alternative vote system of election, discretion is because whether and to what extent it the less they like it. If you have full information should inform people on those controversial matters explaining how this system works, the consequence is depends on how much other information people are that people become disposed to reject such a system. It going to receive on both sides. As has already been might be claimed that in no circumstances could the said by many noble Lords, it depends on whether it explanation be regarded as unbiased. It is riddled with can do that job impartially, which is exceptionally difficulties the more we think about it. There certainly difficult, and it depends on the time constraints. should be unbiased information and clarity in the way the information is provided. These are highly desirable Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I hesitate to interrupt the objectives. I do not know whether before tabling his noble Lord’s flow, but would he like to reconsider? He second amendment, Amendment 110ZZB, my noble has just said that the Electoral Commission has the friend discovered whether the Plain English Campaign discretion to summarise the arguments on each side. I is willing to be co-opted, but I am sure it is because it do not believe that that is what paragraph 9(2) says. has been a very good servant of us all, including The Electoral Commission has the discretion to benefits claimants. summarise, “information about each of the … voting systems”, Lord Dixon: Why not just send them a copy of the which is not the same as the arguments. election that took place in the House of Lords in 2003? You could not get a more educated electorate than the Lord Pannick: That is information about the detail one we have here. There were 603 Peers eligible to vote of the competing voting systems which are under and 423 voted. There were 82 candidates. The successful discussion in the referendum. It is one thing to say to candidate was chosen after the 42nd transfer of votes the Electoral Commission, “Youmust tell people about or recount, and I am told that one Peer voted from one the existence of the referendum, their right to vote, to 82. I have no doubt that number 1 was a great friend and when it is going to take place”. That is perfectly of his, but I do not think 82 was a particular friend. I sensible and it must do that. think that would be the best way to educate the public. Lord Anderson of Swansea: I heard the noble Lord Another thing about new systems is that when the submit that the discretion of the Electoral Commission European Parliament was set up my noble friend Lady on whether to give information by way of an information Quin was the first MEP for our area. If you went into pamphlet will depend—or should depend—on how Jarrow shopping centre and asked who the MEP was, much information is available from other sources. people would say “Joyce Quin”. If you went today, How will it know, in a timely manner, how much nobody would know who the MEP is. information will be available from other sources? Clearly the other sources could include the umbrella organisations; Lord Howarth of Newport: Everything that my noble they could include newspapers which, no doubt, will friend Lord Dixon has just said should definitely go take sides during the campaign. If the Electoral into the leaflet, as should the remarks of my noble Commission is to publish a leaflet, it must surely know friend Lord Grocott. If the leaflet is a little bit longer, in very good time how much information is to be so be it. My noble friend Lord Lipsey wants the leaflet provided from other sources. 1325 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1326

Lord Pannick: I respectfully take the noble Lord’s of the House, in replying to the debate, recognises that point. I therefore assume that in the proper exercise of he now has an opportunity not only to guide the Bill, the discretion rightly given to it by paragraph 9 (2), the but to assuage the passions that will be unleashed Electoral Commission will be preparing material which upon him when a decision is taken. We will face many it may decide is appropriate to send to members of the problems on Report and at later stages of this Bill, so I public. But that is a matter for the commission. would welcome a lead from the Minister to indicate that this is a matter upon which he and his colleagues Lord Davies of Stamford: As the point has already will reflect in a timely way in order to guide the House. been made, there is no reference to summarising anything in this paragraph. It says: 4.30 pm “The Electoral Commission may take whatever steps they Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, in his contribution think appropriate to provide information”. the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, took the view that the I hope the noble Lord agrees with me that that could Electoral Commission should exercise discretion. There equally well cover my proposal of arranging for the was a meeting here two months ago in Committee distribution of material produced by, for example, the Room 4, and Members from across the House attended organisations running the two campaigns. It is very that meeting with representatives from the Electoral important that we make it clear that there is that Commission. During the course of the meeting it possibility there. That is encompassed within the existing became very clear that they will do everything possible text. The suggestion of summarising something, or to avoid being involved in the actual debate that takes producing pamphlets, is an additional issue that we place. With that in mind, some of us are very worried are raising today in the course of debating these about whether at some stage the public are going to be amendments. given factual information as to what the referendum is all about. That is a genuine worry. I am in favour of Lord Pannick: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord the referendum and I am in favour of electoral reform, Davies of Stamford, and that is why I am perfectly but I am concerned because the debate will become content with the existing wording which gives a free very heated and, to put it bluntly, lots of lies will be discretion to the Electoral Commission to take such told. Millions of leaflets will be sent out that, on both steps as it thinks appropriate in all the circumstances sides, will not reveal the truth. Someone, somewhere, as they transpire. We are making heavy weather of this. has to set out the basis on which the referendum is taking place, the truth about the question, and its Lord Graham of Edmonton: The Leader of the implications. House, who is replying on this debate, has a very There is an additional problem, and that is that not important task before him. Whatever he is going to do every household in the country will receive yes and no with the various amendments, it is plain that, in the leaflets. There will be large tracts of the United Kingdom light of the time constraints under which he and the where no leaflets at all will be dropped because the Committee are having to work, he has a herculean organisers of the campaigns will simply not have the task in guiding the Committee and in guiding the Bill resources to do that. In those circumstances—I understand into an acceptable form. Even in this House, where that the Electoral Commission has already agreed that perhaps we are better informed than any other forum, a leaflet will be going out—a leaflet has to be sent. My there is uncertainty about the interpretation of the Bill. question is this: what will be in that leaflet? The Leader of the House will remember, as I do, the 1975 referendum, when I was the Member of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I thank my noble friend Parliament for Edmonton. I did what I had to do. I for giving way. Does he not accept that it will not be wrote articles for the local press, and had various just one leaflet because there need to be leaflets to meetings, but finally my dilemma on how my constituency explain this in Punjabi, Gujarati, Urdu, Mandarin wanted me to vote was resolved. My constituents in Chinese and a whole range of languages, and particularly Edmonton quite clearly said to me, by two to one, that that there will need to be one in Welsh? He will they were in favour of staying in the Common Market. remember that the noble Lord, Elystan-Morgan, said After all the work that had been done in the campaigns that the translation of the question came out as something and by the political parties, I received three letters—two like, “Do you believe in God or would you prefer a of them were in favour and one of them was against. daffodil?”. Somebody has got to explain it. Those who are seeking to alter the system have a great responsibility. I do not doubt for a moment their Lord Campbell-Savours: I understand that my noble sincerity in believing that there is a better system, but friend will be part of the no campaign and I am sure it is clear from what has been said that changing from that he will be impressing on his friends the need to first past the post means that there is a herculean task send out leaflets in all those languages. But I would ahead for all of us to persuade people that there is a not wish to impose that responsibility on the Electoral better system. In three months’ time we will have the Commission. However, I am sure that my noble friend referendum, if the Bill in fact passes, so there is a great and I can debate these matters on Report. responsibility on everyone in this House. Sometimes I think that we take too much for granted Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I made a joke at the end and that matters that move us in this place are a of my remarks, but there is a serious point to be made common expression of the views of the people in the about the leaflet being available in other languages. I constituencies and in the country. I do not think that was talking the other day to the Member of Parliament that is necessarily so. I hope very much that the Leader for Dewsbury about the large number of people in the 1327 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1328 constituency he represents who do not speak a word date, referendum leaflets would go through letter boxes of English but who will have a vote in this referendum. all over the country. As it is, because the referendum is How are they going to understand what they should to take place on the same day as elections in various be doing? parts of the United Kingdom, referendum leaflets will be mixed with election leaflets and many will go in the Lord Campbell-Savours: If my noble friend feels bin. I am very sorry, but that is the case. Again I say to that strongly about the matter, he can table an amendment, the Liberal Democrats that they have chosen the wrong put the proposition to the House and we can vote on date and, even at this late stage, they should revisit the it, if that is the way he wishes to go. decisions they have taken on these matters and which I go further than most Members who have intervened they have forced upon the coalition. in the debate in terms of the information that I believe should be included in the leaflet. First, it should be set Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, I would out by the Electoral Commission where it is used. My happily support the amendment of the noble Lord, noble friend Lord Grocott intervened to pose the Lord Rooker, which would leave out, important question of where AV is used, and the “may take whatever steps they think appropriate to” public need to know. Secondly, the public need to be and insert “must”, but I am worried about the preparation informed that it is not a proportional representation of the leaflets. As I mentioned in my previous intervention, system. There will be a great deal of misrepresentation Amendment 110ZZA would provide that, during the course of the campaign about whether or “The leaflet shall be distributed, so far as is practicable, to all not this is PR. It is not proportional representation households in the United Kingdom”. and the Electoral Commission should make that clear. When I asked, no one had put a price on such a Thirdly, there will be a great deal of misrepresentation project, although it would be a very costly project over the proportion of the electorate that a candidate indeed. Although I have always taken advice from the is required to have to secure election—in other words, noble Lord, Lord Newton—in another place, he was the argument about 50 per cent. Leaflets which refer Leader of the House, and a very good Leader at to the 50 per cent are already being distributed and that—I must advise him that those health leaflets did politicians are going on television stating that there is not come through in Scotland, possibly because of the a 50 per cent requirement. Indeed, Jane Kennedy, a devolved arrangements. I do not know whether such former Member of the other House, has recently leaflets would have gone out under the auspices of the written to a number of people in the no campaign local health board or of a government department, drawing attention to inaccurate information which but I worry about legislating that a specific body—namely, has been put out by the yes campaign. This is only the the Electoral Commission—publish leaflets and distribute start; how much more difficult will it get? them to every household in the land. That is a tall There is a need to draw a distinction between the order for the Electoral Commission. With great respect, different AVsystems because, with the media targeting some Members of this House do not know just how the debate during the course of the campaign—as big or small the Electoral Commission is. There is a they inevitably will—they will draw on the distinctions limit to its resources. between the three systems of AV, to which I have referred in previous debates. The Electoral Commission Lord Newton of Braintree: My recollection—I reflect should make it clear exactly which one is being adopted a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey—is that but refer to the other two—one of which is the system in the days now a bit far off when I was a Member of used for the election of mayors in the United Kingdom. Parliament, there was a legal requirement on the Post The Electoral Commission should also point in its Office to deliver an election leaflet to every household leaflet to the relevance of the need to use all preferences during a general election. We all had supporters who during the course of the ballot that takes place under spent hours writing out these things and delivering AV—again I refer to the distinction between the Australian them to the Post Office. Even now, the Post Office has Queensland system and the conventional system used a universal delivery obligation. All the Government in Australia in federal elections—and that can be done has to do is pay for the production of enough leaflets, in fairly simple language. give them to the Post Office and say, “Get on with it”. It also needs to be pointed out—this is far more argumentative—that AV does not necessarily lead to Lord Martin of Springburn: Perhaps that is what coalitions. Factually, it does not necessarily lead should happen, but my point is that imposing a legislative to coalitions, and yet the no campaign is arguing that responsibility on the Electoral Commission would put coalitions are the inevitable consequence of the a burden on the Electoral Commission. That would be introduction of the alternative vote. That is not the a tall order, although it would be a good contract in case. It does lead to coalitions in certain circumstances these days when there is competition. In the old days, but not in others. There are many issues which my a Member of Parliament got free postage from the noble friend Lord Davies would argue indicate an Royal Mail. However, the Royal Mail now has competitors element of bias but which I believe should be factually that will say, “No, we want to do that job”. Therefore, placed before the electorate to enable them to take a the Electoral Commission will have to ensure that it is proper decision. even-handed. Finally, I return to the timing of the referendum, an My experience with the Electoral Commission was issue we debated last night. One of my fears is what that, as Speaker, I had the duty of chairing the overseeing will happen to the leaflets during the course of the body known as the Speaker’s committee. One of our referendum. If the referendum was held on a separate biggest worries—this is why I am concerned about 1329 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1330

[LORD MARTIN OF SPRINGBURN] I say to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that this bringing this into legislation—was that the commission should not be a partisan issue. Looking at the paragraph wanted to bite off far more than it could chew. For as currently drafted in the Bill, I think that there is a example, although in the days that we have spent need for greater reflection on how the mechanics of debating this Bill noble Lords have spoken with great the referendum campaign will be organised. There has passion about the fairness of the Boundary Commission’s been a lot of reference to the setting up of umbrella appeals process, we previously had to stop Ministers organisations. These umbrella organisations often do handing over responsibility for the Boundary Commission not take into account people who are experienced in to the Electoral Commission, as desired by its then the day-to-day work of informing people of choices in chairman, Mr Younger. I had to say to Ministers, an election. I well remember that the 1979 referendum— including the Secretary of State for Scotland, “Look, liked this one—involved an extremely rushed campaign. they cannot cope with that work”. The commission The noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, in his wanted to provide seminars to train electoral officers great wisdom and experience, made the important that would have involved using a training pack that point that we are talking about a referendum that will was copyrighted by an outside organisation, so the be in three months time this week. cost to taxpayers would have been quite substantial. One of the huge problems that will be faced in the In other words, the Electoral Commission’s enthusiasm referendum is getting organisations together that will had to be curbed. be in a position to advance the arguments both for and 4.45 pm against the first-past-the–post and the additional vote If the amendment is included in the legislation so system. It is very easy to get the great and the good to that the Electoral Commission “must” do these things, sit round a table and proselytise, but it is much more the commission would have the responsibility not only difficult to get people to go out and arrange for others for printing the leaflet and worrying about whether it to come out and go to the polling place. All the might be subject to a legal challenge but for distributing political parties, even the Liberal Democrats, will be the leaflet. Whether free post is given by the Royal divided. Some will take the position of Mr Clegg, who Mail or any other organisation, the distributor will is in favour of the AV referendum; others will take the want to be paid for delivering the leaflets. Between position that AV is a “miserable little compromise”. now and 1 May, the Government would have to find Therefore, there will not be the mechanisms on the out from the Electoral Commission what the bill would ground to ensure that people are engaged in the be. If the Government were not prepared to pay that referendum process. bill, that would be another terrible strain on the Electoral The issue of producing a leaflet is very important. Commission. I am sorry to disagree with the former Speaker, the Given all its responsibilities—and all those that it noble Lord, Lord Martin, but because of the complexity has been curbed from taking on—I do not think the of this issue many people would like something on a Electoral Commission could cope with publishing and bit of paper that they can reflect upon and read again distributing the leaflet. Although the noble Lord, Lord to get it clear in their mind exactly what they are Lipsey, has pointed out that everyone gets a polling making a choice about. Yes, that will be expensive, but card, the point about that is that the returning officer— taking a wrong decision that had to be revisited later usually, the chief executive or legal officer of the local would be even more expensive. authority—has a responsibility for ensuring that the There is also a case for the Government to convene polling card is put through the door. Obviously, every a discussion among the major political parties on the Member of Parliament gets a different polling card logistics of the referendum. I well remember the former that is distributed by different returning officers. The Scottish Office—it must have been under the Secretary point is that the burden of delivering polling cards is of State, Bruce Millan—bringing together the general spread across every local authority in the United secretaries of all the political parties at the start of the Kingdom. If we consolidate the distribution of the campaign in 1979 to try to find some kind of modus leaflet so that it becomes the responsibility of one operandi that would allow a campaign to work. In organisation, I do not think that the organisation will fact, my great ally in that campaign was the organiser be able to cope. of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, because The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, people who run elections know the nature of the would allow the Electoral Commission to provide difficulties that can be faced. information by other means. Instead of a leaflet, the In summary, what is in the Bill at the moment is not famous laptops that young people use could provide sufficient. There is a need for greater thought about the information, or it could be by means of local or how the mechanics will operate. There is also a need to national radio or television. That is my worry about get impartial material into the hands of the electors, the amendment. because my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours is Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I had not intended to right to say that lies will be promulgated on both sides speak on this group of amendments, but, having listened throughout this campaign. If we want to be certain of to the nature of this debate, I found myself wandering having an outcome to the referendum that everybody down memory lane again because the debate has will accept, we have to do the groundwork. brought back strong memories of the run-up to the I have seen the draft that the Electoral Commission devolution referendum in Scotland in 1979. There will has put together so far that explains the difference not be any Hegel in my remarks, but there might be between first past the post and the alternative vote. some of the Krankies. I am not very good at reading instructions—I usually 1331 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1332 get rid of my washing machine whenever I have to I am aware of the time, but I want to spell a point change the programme—but, having vacillated on this out and get a grievance off my shoulder. One must not issue and having believed in the need for a change to bear a grudge, but I am still smarting under the advice the electoral system, I have to tell my noble friend that the Electoral Commission gave indirectly to the Lord Campbell-Savours that, having read the draft, I House, as it went to all Members of the House, when would now come down quite firmly in favour of first it was commenting on the various amendments as past the post. It is clear to me that the lack of certainty they were going through. The House may not remember on how people can secure the outcome of their choice Amendment 40B in my name but I do. It was a very becomes glaringly obvious from the draft leaflet that simple amendment to allow the results of the referendum the Electoral Commission has put together. to be published constituency by constituency. It was a I have one final point. My noble friend Lord very simple proposal and I am sorry to say the House Campbell-Savours said that AVdoes not automatically rejected it. I am not going to go into the merits of it create coalitions. No, it does not, but, although AV but I simply want to make this point: in advance of the can create the climate for coalitions, it definitely creates vote, the Electoral Commission, whose job it is under odd bedfellows. That is because the nature of AV and this legislation to provide information, made a mistake— the nature of practical politics is that people have to believe me, the Electoral Commission can make mistakes choose who their partners will be. At national level, —in respect of the advice it gave on my amendment. that is usually very easy, but at constituency level you As I said, my amendment was about publishing the can end up with some very strange bedfellows. When constituency results. The commission said: that happens on the ballot paper, we could end up “We do not support this amendment … making such a significant with some people in our Parliament whom we would change to the rules for the referendum this close to 5 May”. not necessarily wish to see. In other words, it was assuming that the referendum had to be held on 5 May, which is a contentious piece Lord Grocott: My Lords, I of course know that this of information to begin with. That is a date chosen by Committee stage has to finish tomorrow and I am the Government, and the Electoral Commission is not therefore reluctant to make a contribution. However, I necessarily obliged to give information which helps am aware of the fact that this is the only opportunity the Government to achieve this contentious advice as we have had so far to discuss this hugely important to when the date should be held. More seriously, and issue of the kind of information that the voters will perhaps more factually, this piece of information came receive and how they will be able to obtain impartial to the House after the amendment of my noble friend information, if such a thing exists. This is against the Lord Rooker, giving flexibility as to the date, had been background—I assume we all know and can agree on approved by the House. So the referendum, according this—that there is absolutely no resonance whatsoever, to the Bill as it then stood, did not have to take place anywhere in the United Kingdom, about the issues on 5 May; in fact, it could take place any time between that will be raised in this referendum. The public are 5 May and some time in October, and that is the Bill as either not interested, which I think is almost certainly it stands. the case— I do not dispute for a minute the good intentions of the Electoral Commission but it was at the least a Lord Anderson of Swansea: My noble friend is a contentious piece of advice to Members taking part in very experienced parliamentarian, one who knows the that debate. If on a fairly straightforward, simple grass roots and has campaigned on many occasions. proposal like that it could be contentious then I would Can he indicate to the Committee whether he believes suggest that, for anything that tried to explain how that there will be door-to-door canvassing on this various electoral systems worked and the merits thereof, campaign? How many people will be sufficiently enthused it would be almost impossible to get a non-contentious by this issue to go out from door to door? How many document out to the voters. public meetings are likely to be held on both sides? Does he see any prospect of people being so interested Lord Wills: Now that my noble friend has got this in this question that they will indeed do that sort of leg particular grievance off his chest, may I say he is right work, which is a feature of our elections? to raise the central importance of the information given to the public on this crucial vote that they are Lord Grocott: No, I do not see any real prospect of going to be faced with in a very short space of time? that happening on any big scale at all and that should What role does he expect public service broadcasting be a real concern to all of us. As someone who will be organisations, notably the BBC, to play in providing as active as I possibly can be in the no campaign, I am the public with this information, bound as they are by aware of the big disadvantage that the no campaign considerations of fairness and impartiality and trusted has, which is that everyone in the country at least as they are, particularly the BBC, by the great mass of knows something about first past the post but next to the British public to be fair and impartial? What role no one can answer serious questions about the mechanism does he think they will play? I would also be grateful if of this particular form of the alternative vote system. he could inform the House what role he thinks they That is why I would say that any impartial leaflet should play. trying to tell the public about a system for which there is no evidence they know a great deal about must Lord Grocott: I find it easier to answer the second include the information as to whether this is used. If it question than the first because, although we all complain was not used anywhere in the world, presumably that about the media from time to time, believability tests is a valid factual piece of information to give to the are regularly conducted about different forms of media electorate. outlets—in other words, what do the public trust in 1333 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1334

[LORD GROCOTT] Lord Bach: My Lords, we have quite properly had a terms of the information they receive from the various very full debate on this important group of amendments. media outlets. Always near the bottom in believability The Committee should be grateful to all those who tests, I fear, are party political broadcasts. Somewhere have spoken. Our view from the Front Bench is generally near the top are always programmes such as supportive of the amendments in the group. I do not “Crimewatch”; people believe what they hear when know whether Messrs Hegel, Heidegger and Marx someone in uniform tells them. That is the scale. The would be flattered by the reference to them in the broadcast media always come out better than the print context of this Bill in the British House of Lords, but I media. My short answer to my noble friend is that am certain that they would be astonished to have been broadcasters have an enormous responsibility to provide referred to at all. the information because the public trust the information These are important amendments. The noble Lord that they get from broadcasters more than that which the Leader of the House will undoubtedly be familiar they get from newspapers. with the draft leaflet that the Electoral Commission 5pm has put out. Does he have any up-to-date information I have got my grievance off my chest and I hope I on whether the Electoral Commission feels that this is have made a point at the same time by saying that even a satisfactory document? How much does it intend to the Electoral Commission does not always get things change it? Maybe this is the nature of the beast, but absolutely right. The Committee will be well aware how does the page—it is just one page—on the first that there are penalties when misleading information past the post system compare to the pages on the is given out by candidates during a normal general alternative vote system? There are four pages on how election. Very sadly—at least in my view—a court was this branch of the alternative vote system works. Is able to remove a Member of Parliament quite recently. that deemed to be satisfactory by the Electoral I think the only people who should be able to remove Commission? I think that it only sets up the difficulties Members of Parliament are the electorate—rerun an that many noble Lords from around the Committee election if you like. My point is simply this: there is a have mentioned in their contributions. What I am mechanism at the moment for penalties to be imposed really asking the noble Lord the Leader of the House if it is deemed that an election result is the result of to tell us is, what is the proposal as far as the Electoral misleading, inaccurate or false information being provided Commission is concerned in terms of a final leaflet? to the electorate. We are now discussing something far The Electoral Commission published on 30 September more important than an individual constituency election. last year, Report of Our Views on the Proposed Referendum We are discussing whether we should change the Question, to which I believe the Government responded constitution of our country. Moreover, we are doing in due course. It is worth pointing out a couple of the so without any requirement as to the number of people findings. On page 1, it states: voting. My noble friend Lord Graham said that he “Our research found the main difficulty people had in once received just two letters in favour of something understanding the question was that they did not recognise or and one against. We could change the constitution on understand the voting systems it talks about – ‘First Past the Post’ a very low poll with a very small majority. and ‘Alternative Vote’. Accessibility and plain language specialists also commented that these were not terms that most people I ask the Leader of the House: what happens if would be familiar with”. demonstrably false information has been given out Then on page 2, under “Summary of our findings”, during the campaign, which results in the country’s it states: constitution being changed? As far as I can see, there is absolutely no recourse whatever if that happens. As “There were also some particular words and phrases used in the question that some people did not understand or struggled we have already said, this is not an indicative referendum; with: not everybody understood the term ‘First Past the Post’, or this is a referendum that, if passed, will become law knew that it is the name of the system used now to elect MPs to almost automatically. These are serious questions. I have the UK Parliament – even people who had voted before in this spoken for much longer than I intended to and would type of election … The term ‘Alternative Vote’ caused particular rather leave the matter now. problems and was not understood, or was misunderstood, by nearly everybody taking part in our research”. Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I have just one That may not come as a huge surprise to Members question. Will my noble friend give thought to the fact of the Committee, but it is a warning note. Indeed, the that in the Welsh referendum campaign, for example, Committee’s discussions about the various types of results were announced constituency by constituency? alternative vote—which are the most satisfactory and I remember it well because Carmarthen’s results came which are not—pale in comparison to the fact that in last and that was the constituency I had campaigned there is, at the moment, extremely limited understanding in. If misleading information was put out in one area of what this type of alternative vote procedure actually of the country, would that then lead to a request that means. Whatever view we take about the referendum the whole thing be done again; or would it relate only takes place, there will not be very long to remedy that. to individual constituencies where such misleading So that is a warning and it is why I think that the information had been put out? amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, are so Lord Grocott: That is a very good question from my important. noble friend, to which I do not know the answer. No The Electoral Commission is, of course, an independent doubt, given the great resources of the part of the body created by Act of Parliament and has very strict Civil Service that deals with this Bill, the noble Lord, rules, rightly, about the political activities of its staff. Lord Strathclyde, will be able to give an answer that Nevertheless, there is no disguising the political significance satisfies my noble friend. and sensitivity of the decision on the electoral system 1335 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1336 which will be taken in this referendum and the role group of amendments. The debate became slightly that the commission will play in it. As the Bill has whimsical, but that is not the first time that that has demonstrated all too well, political interests are, of happened in this Committee. I was glad to hear from course, heavily engaged by this referendum. There is my old friend the noble Lord, Lord Graham of therefore a danger, as has been said on many sides, Edmonton, for whom the House knows I have a great that in the context of this highly politicised environment, deal of affection. He was the last great Chief Whip in the information which the commission is due to circulate opposition who achieved so much with so little when and which will impact significantly on the outcome of the Labour Party was a relatively small part of this this referendum could become the subject of severe dispute. House. It is now the largest group in the House of I want to remind the Committee, for a minute or two, Lords. The noble Lord said that there should be time of what can be described as an Irish cautionary tale. for reflection—I assure him that we have done nothing I remind the House of what happened in Ireland but reflect for the past three months or so—and that during the referendum not that long ago on the Lisbon we should consider some of these issues on Report, treaty in 2008. In advance of that referendum, a and we will, of course, do so. referendum commission was appointed under Irish It will come as no surprise to anybody who has law to promote awareness and understanding of the been listening to these debates that the Government Lisbon treaty so as to inform the public about the very much hope that the referendum will take place on issues at stake in the referendum. Indeed, apparently it 5 May and have planned for that. I have said that is the practice in Ireland—some noble Lords will many times and the Government announced their know this—that a commission is established for every intentions in July. I know that some noble Lords referendum to ensure that the subject matter to be opposite would rather that it were not held on that voted on is explained to the electorate. date and that the Labour Party manifesto stated that it The commission is also required to encourage the wanted a referendum on AVin October, as it considered electorate to vote, which is another task that our own that that was a better date, but that is not the view that Electoral Commission has been asked to discharge in the coalition Government have taken. In order to get the forthcoming referendum. Like the subject matter the Bill back to another place so that the Electoral involved in our proposed referendum, the Lisbon treaty Commission can complete its work in time for a was felt to raise issues of such complexity and technicality referendum on 5 May, the Bill will have to go back to that it was quickly recognised that the information another place on Monday 14 February. I do not provided to the public by the independent commission suppose that that is a surprise to noble Lords opposite could have a highly significant impact on the electorate’s either as they have known about that date for a very decision. The subject matter that was distributed by long time. the commission was therefore subject to intense scrutiny I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, by the media and became the object of public argument who said that we were making heavy weather of the between the two campaigns. This eventually spilt over debate—he was right about that—and tried to knock into a wider spat about the commission’s independence, a few heads together. I am also grateful to my noble with claims and counterclaims being made about the friend Lord Newton for what he said about some of connections between commission staff and individuals the common-sense aspects that came out of these in the different campaigns, as well as allegations about amendments. It has been a full debate and I shall try to a conflict of interest involving companies hired by the give it a full answer. commission to help with legal work and communications advice which also worked for the Government. Many 5.15 pm Members of the Committee will be reminded of that argument by what I have just said. Paragraph 9 of Schedule 1 ensures that the Electoral Commission has a role in presenting voters with relevant Of course, I am not suggesting that we would see information about the referendum, how to vote in it the same problems repeated here, but we are saying and factual information about the two voting systems. that because of what is undoubtedly at the moment a The Electoral Commission’s public testing of the low level of public knowledge about electoral systems, referendum question found that the intelligibility of that inevitably means that the information provided the question was increased when people had access to by the Electoral Commission could have a major information on the different voting systems. Therefore, bearing on the outcome of the referendum, which in the commission has decided to issue factual information turn makes it highly likely that this information will be before the referendum. As it said in a recent briefing: the focus of considerable attention, to put it mildly. Perhaps I have just set out the problem in other words, “We intend to send an information booklet about the referendum to each household in the UK which will include information not but the ways in which my noble friend Lord Lipsey only about the voting systems but also about how to take part in and others who have spoken to amendments in this the referendum, including how to register and how to vote”. group have approached this problem need careful The Government take very seriously the consideration by the Government in the little time that recommendations of the Electoral Commission and remains. We look forward to hearing what the noble we support the commission’s decision to provide a booklet Lord the Leader of the House has to say. to every household if it decides that this is necessary to ensure that the public are able to make a fully informed Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it is good to have an choice in the referendum. The Government welcome opportunity to join in this debate. I am very grateful to and support the commission’s approach to publishing the movers of the amendments. We have certainly the information booklet—in particular its public assurance started off with a most interesting debate on this that the final booklets will be available in alternative 1337 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1338

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] regulations to promote one particular outcome or be formats such as large print, easy read and Braille and anything other than unbiased—and that it will go to the fact that the commission’s advertising and media every household in the UK. For this reason we do not campaigns will encourage people to look out for the think it appropriate that the information includes booklet and point them to the website, which I urge all arguments for and against each voting system. The noble Lords to look at. information will be factual, whereas the pros and cons are subjective. These arguments will naturally be for Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Can the Minister confirm the campaigns. It is hard to see how the commission whether the booklets will available in languages other could be expected reasonably to summarise all of the than English? arguments for and against in a way that is commonly accepted to be impartial and unbiased. This is an inherently partial subject, and the more the commission Lord Strathclyde: I do not know, but I know that in is drawn in to trying to describe the pros and cons, the Wales it will be available in Welsh and English. more open it would become to allegations of partiality. It is important that the commission is neutral. Therefore, Lord Maxton: Can this be produced as an app for the arguments for and against should be left to the the iPhone and the iPad? That is where many youngsters campaigns. get their information. A single app on their phone which allows them to read it would be very useful. Lord Davies of Stamford: The Leader of the House is making exactly the point that I made, namely that it Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, that is an immensely would be quite wrong and inappropriate for the good suggestion and of course that will be a decision commission to try to summarise the arguments for for the Electoral Commission. and against. Will he deal with the proposal that I It is not clear from the current legislative framework made, with some support from my colleagues, that if under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums there are two coherent campaigns, one on each side, Act 2000—specifically Section 13—whether the the two organisations concerned should be invited to commission has the power to publish information produce a leaflet that would be sent free to every about the voting systems for public awareness purposes household with the information pack from the Electoral in this particular referendum. Therefore the Government Commission, as happened in 1975? considered it best to make the position absolutely clear and accordingly, we tabled an amendment to Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite insert paragraph 9(2) into Schedule 1 in Committee in right, and therefore he and I are in agreement on this. the other place, which was passed and is now reflected As far as concerns the two campaigns, their material in the Bill. will not be part of the same leaflet pack. The campaigns, We do not see that it is necessary, or desirable, to too, will get a free post, so that every voter will be left mandate that the commission must issue information, in no doubt about the information. Of course, we as amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Rooker expect the media to play a full part in the campaign in and Lord Low, aim to do. Rather, it is the commission’s the run-up to the referendum. prerogative. The commission has indicated that it would like this power and that it clearly intends to exercise it Lord Campbell-Savours: What about factual but we do not think that the Bill should go further inaccuracies, for example the discussion about 50 per than that and oblige it to do so. Moreover, it is simply cent? Ministers at the Dispatch Box—including the unnecessary to legally obligate the commission in this noble Lord himself—have had to correct the record on respect. The commission has already publicly indicated the 50 per cent question. Does he think that the its intention to produce this information, and has Electoral Commission might be in a position, in a published the draft text that will form the basis of neutral way, to set the record straight that it is not a public information leaflets on its website. I am glad requirement for a candidate to secure more than 50 per that some noble Lords have seen it. It is important cent of the votes to be elected under AV? that those who take a real interest in these matters should look at it and send their comments to the Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, that is why I hope that Electoral Commission regarding this information before the noble Lord will look at the website. If he does, he the leaflets are published. will find that the Electoral Commission has already The same point, concerning the appropriateness of made that point in its draft. He will be immensely imposing a legal mandate on the commission in this reassured, as will the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. area, also applies to the amendments tabled by the I will respond to a couple of other issues raised by noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. These would obligate the the amendments in this group. We very much agree commission to provide a leaflet summarising the meaning with the intention of the noble Lord to ensure that of the question, together with the main arguments for leaflets are written in plain English. The noble Lord, and against first past the post and alternative vote. Lord Rooker, my noble friend Lord Newton and The amendments also specify that the leaflet must be others can be assured that the Electoral Commission impartial and unbiased, and distributed to every household is seeking the advice of language experts and working in the UK, so far as possible. with the Plain English Campaign to produce its material. The commission is clear that the leaflets will contain Nothing in the Bill prevents this, and the commission factual information; that this information will be impartial is doing it anyway, so I hope that the noble Lord will and unbiased—it would go against the commission’s agree that that part of the amendment is unnecessary. 1339 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1340

I am sorry to have dealt with these matters quite Furthermore, no one has mentioned the costs involved. fully, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, they are I saw press reports at the weekend of the yes campaign important issues. I hope that I have put the Committee’s being backed by about £6 million and the no campaign mind at rest that these matters have been thought about. somewhat under £1 million. Obviously there is money to be spent on this. It is not impossible to do this. Lord Wills: Before the noble Lord concludes his I have so far refrained from mentioning, as I did remarks, perhaps I might ask him to address the issue before, the fact that in New Zealand there was never that I asked my noble friend Lord Grocott to address, any complaint, to the best of my knowledge, about the namely the role that public service broadcasting literature put out by its Electoral Commission for its organisations in particular should play in the debate. two referendums when they changed the voting system. It is perfectly possible that they will think that this is So it is perfectly possible to explain. an arcane and abstruse issue that deserves 10 minutes I am pleased about something that is contained in on “Newsnight”, and that will be that. Does he think the Electoral Commission draft, which I have only just that that would be an acceptable discharge of their seen. It will not wash in terms of explanation, but it public service obligations, or would he expect them to will stop the Deputy Prime Minister telling fibs any play a fuller role in fully, fairly and impartially examining more. The draft says: all the issues on both sides of the debate? “Because voters don’t have to rank all of the candidates, an election can be won under the ‘alternative vote’ system with less Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am convinced that than half the total votes cast”. the broadcasters will see it as part of their remit to Let us have an end to that. I know that the Leader said involve themselves in these debates. It is up to them to that; he is not going to point out the errors of the decide how they do so and is not at the direction of the Deputy Prime Minister, who started peddling this Government, however desirable those of us in government view. I could peddle the issue about how it ends might think that that would be. tactical voting. It does not—it moves tactical voting to the second vote. Lord Rooker: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord We have had an interesting debate. My noble friend Pannick, I am surprised that the debate has lasted so talked about leaflets. It will be booklets, not leaflets. long. On the other hand, it has been quite interesting. I do not see why the Royal Mail cannot do it. It can There has been talk of contentious items. The first deliver to every household quite quickly. The difficulty thing that I contend is that the largest group in this is in the timing. Nothing can be printed until after House is the coalition, not the Opposition. We could Royal Assent. One assumes that something will be have a debate about that: it is the kind of thing that we ready to go, if the Plain English Campaign has looked might put on the leaflets. As someone said, it is at it. However, it is going to go through letter boxes in symptomatic and sad that the only debates on the Bill the UK at exactly the same time as other election in which these issues have been raised have been in this literature. Will it get the justice that it deserves? Clearly, unelected House of Lords. They were not debated in we are embarking on a big project. As I have said, I the other place and certainly will not be, so we need have no view about the referendum on 5 May. I only not apologise for debating them here. offered a lifeboat if a lifeboat was needed. I do not There is another surprising thing in this debate. We campaign one way or the other. I simply think that, as have agreed to finish Committee stage tomorrow, and I said last night, time is running short to get the message when there is such an arrangement, it is normal for across in a way that will result in a meaningful vote. those who have restrained themselves from participating Some practical problems may come up in terms of in the debate to pile into the debate. That is what used the mechanism that will be involved. One assumes that to happen in the other place. However, we have had contracts have been looked at. You cannot just go to only one contribution from the Liberal Democrats. Royal Mail and say, “By the way, you know there are They know that they can speak on this without affecting local elections in which there is no free post, but there the outcome simply because we are going to finish are poll cards; and, by the way, we are having a tomorrow anyway, yet they still refuse to join in the referendum. Can you knock an extra one out for every debate. However, that is their problem, not mine. household in the country?” Royal Mail will say, “No It has been an interesting debate, and I wish to raise one has asked us about that. We have not got the a couple of further points. The legislation talks about capacity for that. We need more warning”. Has anybody information to “persons”, not households. As far as I done that? I presume we can ask that when we debate know, there are 44 million electors in 27 million further amendments. However, in view of the need to households. The legislation says “persons”. People are make progress, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. going to vote, not households. If we want to talk about the bias, it might be considered bias in the Amendment 108 withdrawn. proposed leaflet—I have the draft in my hand—for the status quo to apply in terms of which system will be Amendment 109 not moved. dealt with first. The issue will be: which system will be 5.30 pm described first in the leaflet? There could be a question of bias. I have no view about which way round they should be, but if I was really fanatical, I could nit-pick Amendment 109A and consult lawyers about which one is going to be Moved by Lord Bach described first—leaving aside the fact that there are 109A: Schedule 1, page 20, line 3, at end insert— four pages to one system and one page to the other, “subject to the approval of the Speaker’s Committee on the which is another issue. Electoral Commission” 1341 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1342

Lord Bach: Following the previous debate, I can does not become embroiled unnecessarily or inadvertently move this amendment from the opposition Front Bench in a political controversy which would tarnish the poll comparatively shortly. We believe that it is absolutely and tarnish the result of the referendum which, as I appropriate that the Electoral Commission has the say, may or may not change the constitution of our lead role in providing the public with educational country for good. It is a modest proposal but I hope materials in regard to the alternative vote referendum. one that may find some support in the Committee, That was the position adopted by the previous Labour particularly from the Minister. I beg to move. Government in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act, which originally contained clauses Lord Soley: I referred to this matter in my earlier to provide for an AV referendum, supported by noble comments and I am encouraged to make a further Lords from the Liberal Democrat Party but absolutely comment partly by the speech made by my noble torpedoed and killed off by the Conservative Front friend Lord Davies of Stamford but also by that made Bench in the wash-up before the election. by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. The problem here is We remain of the view that the Electoral Commission paragraph 9(2) of Schedule 1. Paragraph 9(1) is very is best placed to provide the public with the neutral, clear. It does not put the Electoral Commission in the factual background information that they will need to firing line at all. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord make an informed decision in the referendum. There is Wallace, who I assume will answer this debate, heard also no question that there is, as we have debated, a anything of the previous debate he will have heard serious need for such background information. As we anxiety expressed in all speeches about the dangers of discussed a few minutes ago, noble Lords may well putting the Electoral Commission in a position where it have read the report of the Electoral Commission on takes the blame for not getting a balanced view of the the intelligibility of the referendum question as then two systems. As I have said on a number of occasions, posed, which was published last September, following it is very difficult to write a pamphlet describing the the original proposition put forward in the Bill. Following two systems without, in some way, being biased. My extensive public consultation, the commission found noble friend Lord Rooker has already touched on this. that the vast majority of UK citizens had only a There seem to be two ways of dealing with this slim grasp, if any grasp at all, of the choice which problem. One is the way put forward by my noble is being put to them in the AV referendum which, as friend on the Front Bench, which is to allow a political my noble friend Lord Grocott quite rightly said in the committee, the Speaker’s Committee, to be the lightning previous debate—I hate to embarrass him—changes conductor. That committee would oversee the work our constitution and may change it for a long time to that was done and would sign it off and if there were come. Who knows? On the previous amendment, I any flak from it, it would not go straight to the Electoral quoted various short passages from that report and I Commission. That is one way of dealing with it. shall not repeat them. Perhaps I may suggest another way which came to There is clearly a need for public education about me when I heard my noble friend Lord Davies speak—I the concepts and issues at stake in the referendum on noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, gave a electoral reform. Given the current low level of knowledge, fairly positive response to it—and that is the idea of it seems clear that the education people receive will the two campaigning groups being able to send out a shape the way in which they think and have a very leaflet, at public charge, so that it would be done great influence on how they then act. I shall not repeat rather like an election address. Looking back to paragraph my Irish cautionary tale about the trouble that a 9, sub-paragraph (2) is problematic because that is referendum commission, or in this case the Electoral where the Electoral Commission is required to make Commission, can find itself in, but many such difficulties judgments about the wording used to describe the were outlined in the contributions made on the previous system. If we took out sub-paragraph (2)—I do not group of amendments. There is no doubt that it is a expect the Minister to respond to this straightaway very difficult line for the Electoral Commission to but he might want to think about it—and simply left follow without finding itself in very serious hot water in sub-paragraph (1), then the Government could, in from one side or the other or perhaps both. this Bill—I suspect that it would not need to go into The purpose of the amendment is to provide the the Bill—allow for the two campaigning groups to Electoral Commission with some sort of cover which produce the leaflet as described by my noble friend would insulate it against unwarranted accusations of Lord Davies with some sympathetic support from the showing favouritism, for example, to one argument noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. That could be sent over another. It would provide for a Speaker’s Committee round, either with the Electoral Commission’s pamphlet on the Electoral Commission, a body which already or separately—I should have thought it would go with exists, as noble Lords will know, and it would have a it—and in that way you take the responsibility of role in signing off materials which the commission describing the two systems other than in a very basic intend, under its broad provisions, to disseminate about sense which is required in paragraph 9(1), and put the the AV referendum. That Speaker’s Committee on the requirement in paragraph 9(2) onto the two campaigning Electoral Commission would include, of course, senior organisations. Members of Parliament from all the main parties and I hope I am making myself clear. It is slightly would be chaired by the Speaker, who has no party complicated, but I am arguing that the two campaigns affiliation. will know what they want to say for and against the That seems to us a sensible proposal which would two systems. If they produce their own leaflets and strengthen the legitimacy of the referendum process they are circulated with the pamphlet put out by the and help to ensure that the Electoral Commission Electoral Commission, which they will do under 1343 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1344 paragraph 9(1), then it leaves the Electoral Commission the previous debate, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, in the rather tighter position of simply saying that said that it could be accused of bias because first past there is a referendum, informing people about it, the post was described before the alternative vote. In informing them how to vote, but not getting into the fairness, if one looks at the electoral question, the nitty-gritty of the pros and cons or the description of question for the referendum, which is part of the Bill, how the two systems might work. That would be left first past the post is mentioned there before the alternative to the two campaigning organisations. That way you vote, so it is probably not unreasonable that the Electoral would take the Electoral Commission out of the firing Commission should reflect in its information the question line. The alternative way is to do as my noble friend which Parliament is debating and which appears in the has suggested from the Front Bench and leave the Bill, published on advice from the Electoral Commission. Speaker’s Committee to oversee the leaflet. It seems to me that either of those systems would act as a lightning Lord Anderson of Swansea: If a leaflet is to be conductor for the Electoral Commission and not put it produced by campaigning organisations, the noble in the firing line for what will almost certainly be seen and learned Lord will understand that, normally, when as in some way a biased leaflet. I hope I have made myself making an argument, you put the argument you want clear. Perhaps the Minister would like to think about that. to make second. It is assumed that in a “on the one hand, on the other hand” argument, you put the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I thank the noble argument that you favour second. Cannot that be got Lord, Lord Bach, for moving the amendment. This around in a leaflet by having one side of one page for important amendment follows on from the previous and the other against? debate and I welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Soley. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The answer to that, as in introducing his amendment, it is appreciated that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, pointed out, is that it the Electoral Commission should take the lead role in takes a bit longer and more pages to describe the providing useful factual information. We believe it alternative vote than it does to describe the first-past- plays an important role in providing information to the-post system. Although that is an innovative and the public and there is a governance framework for the ingenious way to try to overcome the problem, I think Electoral Commission, under the Political Parties, that a practical issue is associated with it. Elections and Referendums Act, which we believe has As my noble friend the Leader of the House said, operated effectively for 10 years. It is also important to the Electoral Commission has already published the recall in the context of this amendment that latterly proposed content of its information leaflets on its the Electoral Commission has had the benefit of advice website. It is keen to have comments on the draft. If and involvement of representatives from the political noble Lords wish to make representations about that parties: the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, information, they can of course send their comments for the Labour Party, the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, to the Electoral Commission before the leaflets are for the Conservative Party and Mr David Howarth, published. the former Member of Parliament for Cambridge who represents the Liberal Democrats. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Can the Minister help The Speaker’s Committee is an important part of me on one issue? He knows as well as I do that before that framework. It produces an annual report to elections, party election broadcasts replace party political Parliament on the commission’s performance, but the broadcasts. Will there be referendum broadcasts for nature of the role of the Speaker’s Committee is the yes and no campaigns? Will that be part of the different from that proposed in the amendment. The arrangements for the referendum? Speaker’s Committee is currently not given any say in how the commission should exercise its powers. It is Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Off the top of my there to report on the performance of the commission head—I think I know the answer but I cannot be rather than to have a say in the exercise of its powers. certain—I think that the answer is yes. I know that The purpose of paragraph 9(2) of Schedule 1 is to parties cannot use their election broadcasts for the provide legal clarity so that the Electoral Commission referendum campaign. I think that that was decided in can issue information about both the first-past-the-post a case prior to the Scottish referendum in 1979. I think and the alternative vote systems which it identifies as that there will be broadcasts, but perhaps I can confirm being necessary to help public understanding of the that in the course of my remarks. referendum question. I hope that that goes some way I am mindful that all public bodies need to be held to answering the point of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, properly accountable for what they do, but we need to which was whether we could delete paragraph 9(2) strike a sensible balance. It seems to me that there are and leave it to the respective campaigns. Although the dangers in introducing a role for a parliamentary respective campaigns will have facility under the free committee in approving the operational work of the post to put out their argument—no doubt a positive commission, as is envisaged under the amendment, argument for why they wish to retain first past the post rather than monitoring and commenting on its or to move to the alternative vote and an argument performance, as is the case established under the PPERA. against the other system—that is clearly not a role that It must also be remembered that the Speaker’s Committee, would be appropriate for the Electoral Commission. however august, comprises politicians. Irrespective of Paragraph 9(2) provides a clear legal basis for the how carefully we might think that the committee Electoral Commission, having identified a need for would use its power—I have no reason to think that it factual information, to provide it. In his response to would do other than that—perception can be important 1345 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1346

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I move this in these matters. There might be concern if the Electoral amendment in a probing frame of mind. It refers to Commission—which, I think, everyone agrees, has a paragraph 10 of Schedule 1, which provides the nuts reputation for its impartiality—had in this crucial area and bolts of the referendum arrangements. I sometimes to have its work vetted or approved by a body comprising think that they can be skimped in our deliberations. politicians. Paragraph 10 is headed, “Encouraging participation”. Furthermore, building in an extra procedural hurdle As I said earlier, I am sure that everybody wants that. before the commission could issue the clarifying Therefore, it is a very important part of the mechanics information to help voters could be difficult if confusion of the referendum. about the systems was allowed to take root and hares My concern is that in paragraph 10, five individuals were allowed to run which could not be corrected and tiers of officer are referred to: the Electoral promptly because of the need to refer. We must also Commission, the chief counting officer, regional counting bear in mind that the commission already issues a lot officers, counting officers and registration officers. of useful guidance to voters, parties, candidates and The last four—the chief counting officer and everybody electoral administrators about the working of our down to registration officers—are under a duty and must, system. That has worked well. I am not aware of any “take whatever steps the officer thinks appropriate to encourage significant concerns about it. participation in the referendum”. I confirm that my instinctive answer was right: My concern, especially in view of the tight time scale there will be referendum broadcasts for the designated in which the referendum is likely to be conducted, is campaigns. that there will be a lack of co-ordination between all It is the commission’s responsibility to decide how, these different officers about what they do. You could and whether, to provide that information. As I said, I get a right mess with each of them carrying out their think it is widely accepted across the Committee that duty to encourage participation, some in this way, the commission is well established as a neutral, some in that, some here, some there, often overlapping independent body. I am confident that it does not need and often leaving gaps of encouragement. I therefore the extra provision which the amendment would impose. thought it fit to propose this amendment which will There is a further opportunity for noble Lords to cast upon the chief counting officer a duty to, in comment on the draft. I therefore ask the noble Lord effect, facilitate co-operation between all those bodies, to withdraw the amendment. not forgetting that in the same paragraph 10, all four sets of officers, Lord Bach: I thank the noble and learned Lord for “must have regard to any guidance issued by the Electoral his full answer and my noble friend Lord Soley for his Commission”. contribution in support of my amendment. I am slightly So it has its oar in as well. disappointed by the noble and learned Lord’s response. It is as simple as that. We surely need somebody As I said in opening, this is a modest proposal—and a who has a primary role to facilitate co-operation between practical one, I think. Without doubt, the Electoral all these various people and organisations. Lastly, I Commission will come under a lot of pressure, to put point out that under the Political Parties, Elections it mildly, in the lead-up to and during the campaign and Referendums Act 2000, the chief counting officer for the referendum. No doubt, much of that criticism is chair of the Electoral Commission. That is all I need will be ill judged and unfair, but the Electoral Commission to say. I beg to move. will have to face it. This modest amendment is an attempt to give some cover, some protection to the Electoral Commission. Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I am not entirely sure why The Speaker’s Committee already exists. For the life of my Amendment 110ZB is grouped with the amendment me, I cannot understand what are the dangers of tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, but it gives me extending its role to this issue. I understand that the a particular pleasure to follow him in the debate. We Government do not want to adopt the amendment. I have heard only too little from his Benches in the should like them to go away to think about it again course of this debate, and therefore I wish him well in because, as a practical measure to try to stop the his speech. I should perhaps add that he should mind difficulties that will undoubtedly arise in future, it how he goes on the way home. A vow of omerta has seems to us to be sensible. bound the Lib Dems together over this Bill, and he has, I am sure inadvertently, broken it by intervening for a Of course I will withdraw the amendment today. whole two minutes this evening. So mind how you go. We want to consider in more detail what the noble and learned Lord said, but I tell the Committee that we may My Amendment 110ZB is not terribly well related well return to this issue at Report. I beg leave to to Amendment 110ZA, but is about a quite different withdraw the amendment. matter. It harks back to the stain that still hangs over our democracy from the May general election. Memories Amendment 109A withdrawn. in politics are, alas, short, but not in this House, of course. Therefore, I hardly need remind noble Lords Amendments 110 to 110ZB not moved. of what happened. In a number of constituencies—16 in all—people turned up at the polling station before the Amendment 110ZA 10 o’clock deadline wishing to cast a vote in those Moved by Lord Phillips of Sudbury constituencies. They were not allowed to vote. According 110ZA: Schedule 1, page 20, line 6, at end insert “including to the Electoral Commission’s 20 May interim report the facilitation of co-operation between the officer, the Electoral on the matter, 1,200 voters were excluded from voting Commission and the officers to whom sub-paragraph (3) applies” as a result of that cock-up. 1347 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1348

For each of the 1,200 voters, the ban was absolute. disappointed that I have not seen, although it may It may not be a large percentage of the national total, exist, any kind of response to such a consultation. but for a few days, our papers, no doubt exaggerating This was a serious problem. It is not a joke. If it is a little bit, were comparing us to a third world democracy. repeated, it will cast permanent doubt on our electoral We could not even organise a vote, and when you see arrangements, and it is therefore absolutely essential the way voters queue up in South Africa for hours and that we make sure that there will be no repetition of hours under a hot sun to exercise their right, and you this on 5 May. find that in our own country people who have turned I should have said earlier that there is one other up on time are denied it, it leads to a shiver of shame reason why there could be a repetition. If the referendum going down one’s spine. The Electoral Commission’s goes ahead on 5 May, and it remains to be seen interim report blamed poor planning, unsuitable buildings, whether that will be possible, it will be quite a complicated contingency arrangements that were not triggered in time election. At the polling station, they will be dishing or proved ineffective and, incidentally, restrictive legislation out one set of papers for the election of Governments that stopped those queuing getting ballot papers, even in Scotland and Wales and another set of papers for though they were in the polling station on time. the referendum, and people will be coming up saying Planning for the referendum is in one sense at least “Please sir, what do I do with that?”; “I don’t know perhaps more difficult than planning for a general that”; “I didn’t know I was going to get that”; and all election. Yes, we should all love to see a turnout for the that sort of thing. It would be quite easy to imagine referendum at least as great as that in the general circumstances in which the staff at the polling stations election, but I do not think that many psephological became overwhelmed by the sheer volume of queries. experts think that is terribly likely. It really is terribly I shall not try to have a vote on this tonight. I give difficult to predict what turnout will be. You can way to the noble Lord. imagine that the campaign starts with a poll showing a great gap between the various sides, and therefore 6pm fewer and fewer people plan to vote because they do Lord Rennard: The noble Lord might be reassured not think their vote will make a difference. As it gets that I am not going to ask him the question that he closer to polling day, it may be that polls start to feared about whether he had consulted the Electoral narrow, and a whole load of people decide that they Commission on this issue. Rather, does he not think, will after all go to the polls. By then, electoral officers in view of the potential problems he was just outlining, will have made their dispositions and decided how that his amendment could add to those problems? His many staff to have, how many polling stations and so amendment would apply to the issue of ballot papers on. In this case, the Leader of the House’s technique for the referendum only. The effect of his amendment for deciding what the turnout will be—the same technique will be that different laws would apply for the issue of that he used for the number of seats—by choosing a ballot papers for the referendum from those that would nice round number out of the air is not that much apply for the issue of ballot papers for the Scottish worse than any other technique. There is a danger that Parliament, Welsh Assembly and local elections. That the accommodation will not be sufficient for the number would further add to the confusion. For those of us of people who turn out to vote on the day. who agree that there is a problem with this matter and The Library tells me that we are still awaiting the that it might be better dealt with by legislation, the final report from the Electoral Commission on last legislation should be comprehensive for all elections May’s debacle, but bits of it have leaked out. The and referendums and not just the referendum on 5 May. Government’s response has left a nasty sniff in the air. reported, even before the report came out Lord Lipsey: My Lords, there is a great deal in what on 11 November, that Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime the noble Lord says. The trouble is that we have got Minister, had turned down the proposal in the before us the parliamentary voting Bill and I cannot commission’s interim report for a change in the legislation change the whole of electoral law in a clause within it. so that those who turn up before 10 o’clock can vote, If the noble Lord can prevail on Ministers to change even if they have not cast their vote by 10 o’clock. He the electoral law more generally as soon as possible, said that the answer to poor organisation was not to then that would be great. I would rather that on 5 May reach for the statute book. Of course it is not, but it people were able to vote in the referendum, even if a seems sensible to have two barrels to your shotgun: to cock-up occurred that stopped them voting in the try to deal with the poor organisation and to change local elections, than that they went all the way to the the legislation that inadvertently caused this problem. polling station and could not cast a ballot on anything. I am therefore a little sorry and a little surprised that That would be much worse. While the anomaly that this legislation—absent the amendment I am now the noble Lord points to does exist, I think it preferable proposing—does not seem to do anything about that to the disaster that could occur if my amendment, or shortcoming. something like it, is not adopted. Whenever I propose an amendment of this kind, As I say, I am not going to force a vote, partly somebody stands up and asks whether I have consulted because the Government may know more about the the Electoral Commission about it, and I always retort final report of the Electoral Commission than I do. no, because we are in Committee and it is not the duty I hope, however, that the Minister will be very responsive of a Member of this House to consult the Electoral to the points made in this House and will see some Commission on every proposal he puts forward at this merit in what I am saying. I hope I can look forward to stage in a Bill. I am, and should be, slightly surprised him coming forward with proposals to deal with the that the Government have not consulted it. I am matter on Report. If he does not—and I am not 1349 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1350

[LORD LIPSEY] The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, mentioned the question predicting this—the danger is that on 5 May we will of facilitation. This is clearly a possible problem because get less a verdict on the electoral system and more there will be a number of right hands and a number of some very cross voters indeed. That would be something left hands. It is important that this be a key role—even that nobody in this House would wish to see. if the actual wording is not wholly appropriate. I was puzzled by another matter in this same section. Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, first, I support In paragraph 10(1), we are told that: the principle behind the amendment that the noble “The Chief Counting Officer must take whatever steps the Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, has moved. The officer thinks appropriate”. arrangements as set out in the schedule are somewhat At the end, in paragraph 10(5), we are told that: ambiguous. His amendment is one way, at least, of “The Minister may reimburse any expenditure incurred by an clarifying that. There may be other, better ways, for all officer for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) or (2)” I know, but certainly these arrangements need to be On the face of it, this gives an unlimited expenditure clarified. I strongly support the view behind the for the worthy objects of this paragraph and goes amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey—that the against all the normal government policies of being situation in the last election, where people who came frightened and hesitant about open-ended commitments. and were there before 10 pm could not, because of the It is wholly unlimited. One’s mind boggles at what, in law, be given ballot papers, was absolutely disgraceful. following up this worthy objective, a very zealous Whatever the reason, on the night the lady from the officer may wish to do. So I simply commend to the Electoral Commission who spoke did not appear to Government— me to have grasped exactly what the situation was. She said that it had given clear instructions that the ballot Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The key word that the papers were not to be handed out after 10 pm. It noble Lord quoted is “may”. It gives a discretion to suggests to me—and I do not know what the right answer the Government as to what they reimburse, so the to it is—that some flexibility is required to deal with matter is not as open as he thinks. special circumstances. The people who are running the different polling stations may not necessarily be the Lord Anderson of Swansea: That is one way of top brass of the arrangements, but some kind of seeking to limit the zeal of any particular officer. It discretion must be given, because that kind of thing may well be that there should be written into the can happen. I do not expect for a minute that anybody clause some test of reasonableness or otherwise, but realised exactly what was happening until it was really we have to have some limit. too late, and then they had this terrific sledgehammer The final comment I would like to make on the of “You cannot issue a ballot paper after 10 pm”; amendment is on the point made by my noble friend witness what the Electoral Commission had said. In a Lord Lipsey, which was supported by the noble and sense it made the matter worse. I do not say that the people learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I had the in the polling booth could have given them out after privilege of being an observer, or monitor, at both the 10 pm, although I think if I was in a polling booth and South African election in 1994 and the first free election in charge as a clerk I would have had a shot at that. in Namibia in 1989. What amazed me at the time was It is important that this matter should be sorted out that many people who had not had the opportunity one way or another. If the Government do not think before—those who were non-white—had such enthusiasm that the Electoral Commission solution is the best, then to get to the ballot box. I recall seeing young men let us have one. We need a solution. I agree, of course, carrying their aged mothers on their shoulders to get that it needs to be a solution that applies to all elections— to that ballot box. I recall the long queues of people not just the referendum—although, unfortunately, I waiting to vote. All of those, in fact, who were in the do not think that that could be done in this Bill. We tent at the relevant time, were allowed to vote. For any are trying to do enough already. We cannot sort the democrat it was a wonderfully emotional and uplifting whole thing out, but it is certainly important to sort it moment. out. A very short Bill that would not take the time that As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has this one has taken could go through both Houses and just said, it was very different when we saw the people sort this out in good time for 5 May. who had been excluded from voting at the time of the last election. As a democrat, I was extremely happy to Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I follow the see the display of real anger on the part of those who noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, when he says were excluded. We wait with interest to see how the that he agrees with the intention of both these Electoral Commission will respond, but surely it is not amendments. It may well be that the wording can be beyond the wit of man, or woman either, to give out improved—and it probably can—but there will be cards to those waiting in the queue at 10 pm to enable general approval for the intention. I also begin by those who have made the effort to vote on time to do welcoming the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord so. Indeed, everything must be done to encourage Phillips, and indeed that of the noble Lord, Lord people to vote. Someone who is turned away at the last Rennard. Someone mentioned the vow of omerta. moment because there is a queue may, in the future, When we had a Liberal Democrat intervention in an join the ranks of those who do not vote. Let us look area of policy which in many ways they have taken as very carefully at this in order to encourage democracy. their own, I was reminded rather more of the brave Horatius at the bridge: Lord Maxton: My Lords, as someone who takes an “And even the ranks of Tuscany interest in the field of IT and new technologies, I have Could scarce forbear to cheer”. to say that the idea that we still vote by putting a cross 1351 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1352 on a piece of paper, having had to travel somewhere to of votes. I assume that the same people will count actually put that paper into a box, appals me. I would both the referendum and the Scottish parliamentary not dream of booking a holiday or anything else in votes. There is already criticism in Scotland that, any way other than online through my computer and because the referendum for AV is being held on the paying with a bank card. There is some security risk, same day, the announcement of the results of the maybe, but not very much, yet we still have this absurd Scottish parliamentary election may be put off for system for voting. But, of course, almost the first several days because they will want to announce both thing this Government did was to abolish the one way results at the same time. Whoever is in charge of the we could have had electronic voting by getting rid of election will have to make the decision about what to the rather small system of ID cards that we were count first. The various ballot papers will have to be introducing. If we had ID cards, we would not have sorted out, as my noble friend said, or will it be any of this bother. decided that the Scottish parliamentary election votes This real point is this. My noble friend is right at will be counted and those results announced first? one level to say that in Scotland we are going to have two ballot papers presented to us—but we are not Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I hesitate to ask the noble because we are going to have three of them. There will Lord to give way again, but I think I can help him on be one using the first past the post system to elect the that. Paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 gives the chief counting Member for the constituency, and a second paper officer the power to direct regional counting officers giving a list of parties to elect. That, by the way, raises and so on, and gives regional counting officers the the point made earlier by my noble friend Lord Rooker power to direct counting officers within their region about where you stand on the ballot paper. In my view, about the discharge of their functions. That will probably it is almost certain that Alex Salmond is the First include directions about the sort of issues the noble Minister of Scotland because he made sure, when Lord has raised. But of course that does not go across using the list system, that he was listed as “Alex to paragraph 10, which is all about encouraging Salmond for First Minister” rather than “SNP”. He participation. was at the top of the list and probably got just about enough votes to make sure he won the election. Lord Maxton: I gather that some returning officers in Scotland have already begun to complain that they We are now to have the AV paper to contend with do not know which votes they will have to count first, as well, and some people will find it difficult. The and that this is causing some confusion in their ranks. referendum is very important, but a problem that may Maybe it is for the Government or the Electoral arise is that some people in Scotland will decide that Commission to take a decision on this. However, I the Scottish elections are considerably more important think that there will be some anger in Scotland if the than the referendum for AV. After all, the Scottish results for who is to form the next Government in Parliament deals with the education system, housing Scotland and who is to be the next First Minister in and all the social issues that affect people’s lives. They Scotland are delayed by the result of the decision on may say, “I can’t be bothered with the referendum the AV referendum, if that is done first and the other paper. I will deal with the Scottish Parliament ones”. results are delayed. For some of us, the idea of Alex If the turnout for the AV referendum is smaller than it Salmond being First Minister for even one more hour is for the Scottish Parliament, that will begin to cast let alone one, two or three more days is more than we doubts on the referendum itself. want, but the fact is that I would accept that decision if it is made. The power in the Bill may allow the officer Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Does my noble friend to make that decision, but it would be a very important recognise that the position is even more complicated, decision for him to make. as I explained in a debate we had before Christmas? There are also two franchises, so although the vast 6.15 pm majority of people will get three ballot papers, some Lord Bach: My Lords, in our view these are two will be entitled to only one and others to two. The excellent amendments, although it is rather surprising returning officer has to keep two registers, so it is that they have been put together in the same group. going to be very complicated, and the likelihood of What links them is their excellence, and I hope that the queues to vote is even greater. Minister will be encouraging to both noble Lords who tabled them. I do not fear for the health of the noble Lord Maxton: My noble friend makes a good point Lord, Lord Phillips, on his way home. We all know because the chance of a reduced turnout is even further him as a brave and independent-minded Peer who has increased by that. Moreover, if we have to have this already shown, in the course of the eight or nine sort of electoral system and way of voting, maybe months of the coalition’s existence—it seems a long there is a case for switching the polling day from a time already—that he can act independently. Looking Thursday to a Sunday because at least that would give at him from where I stand now, he seems to be the people the whole day to cast their vote, whereas those same man he was before he voted a few months ago who are at work on a Thursday have to do it after they against the coalition on an important amendment on get home. a different issue, so good luck to him in his amendment. I turn to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Of course, if he had been concerned, he need not be Lord Phillips. He is quite right to say that there should any longer because he has the protection and support be somebody to do this. But whoever is in charge of of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of the election, what he will have to decide—certainly in Clashfern, and there cannot be any better protection Scotland—is the order for counting the different sets and support than that around the House. 1353 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1354

[LORD BACH] registration officers. We are assured that material will The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, pointed out the be developed by the Electoral Commission for use by ambiguity and ambivalence of paragraph 10 and the electoral administrators to support their public awareness need for it to be simplified. For those on the Front work and to ensure appropriate co-ordination with its Bench on this side, that is clear, and I think it is the own activities. only point I need to make about his amendment. We On a slightly more technical point, the amendment hope that his noble and learned friend Lord Wallace does not sit well with the current wording and spirit of of Tankerness will take note. paragraph 10 of Schedule 1, where the onus is on the My noble friend Lord Lipsey’s amendment also chief counting officer being responsible for deciding seems to hit the mark for us. The noble and learned what steps she thinks are appropriate to encourage Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was right to say participation. It should be noted that when undertaking that what happened at the end of the last general this responsibility the chief counting officer can also election night—thankfully in a comparatively small use her power of direction under paragraph 5(5) of number of venues, although even one was one too the schedule to require regional counting officers and many—was absolutely disgraceful. Indeed, if it had counting officers to take a particular course of action happened in any other country, whether it was a to encourage participation. In contrast, the amendment sophisticated democracy or a new democracy, I venture would mandate the chief counting officer to undertake to think that it would have been reported in the British specific steps, which is not the intention of this provision. media as being proof that that country had not really In addition, one effect of requiring co-operation grown up democratically and lacked certain vital factors among certain named bodies is that such a requirement in elections. We must make sure that it does not could raise a question about whether it was also happen again, and indeed I think that that is what my permissible for the chief counting officer to consult noble friend is suggesting in his amendment. other bodies that are not mentioned there. That problem The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, was quite right to does not arise in the original drafting. say that this would only affect the referendum, but it I understand the sentiments and the intention needs to affect all elections. However, the noble Lord, underlying my noble friend’s amendment. Lord Rennard, is perhaps best placed of anybody in the House to use his influence to make sure that Lord Campbell-Savours: Will the Minister respond government views can be changed so that this can to the question of my noble friend Lord Anderson become general practice rather than just for the about the conflict between the requirement on the referendum. chief counting officer to encourage participation as he I have nothing else to say from the Front Bench thinks fit and the fact that the Minister may not except that we hope very much that the Minister will necessarily reimburse the local authority? If a registration be sympathetic to these two amendments, both of officer believed that it was appropriate to encourage which will add to the virtue of the Bill. participation by, let us say, running a rapid registration campaign prior to the referendum and got on with it, The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace and then it was decided that because the money was of Tankerness): My Lords, in addressing the amendment not available he could not proceed, would not that tabled by my noble friend Lord Phillips, I can assure have legal implications for the officer’s failure to act? him that he need not be concerned about proposing it. Amendment 110ZA would impose a duty on the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I think the chief counting officer to facilitate co-operation between noble Lord is asking whether, if a person is frustrated the officer, the Electoral Commission, the regional in his activities—I take a technical approach to this—the counting officers, counting officers and registration post hoc situation would be reimbursement. I take the officers. In common with other noble Lords who have point and do not wish to diminish it, but perhaps I spoken in the debate, the Government agree with the could have some time to reflect on what he is saying. It intention of the amendment, which is to ensure that is agreed on all sides of the Committee that there there is a strong relationship and good communication should be encouragement, which we do not wish to among those involved in running the referendum. have cut off. However, we do not believe the amendment is necessary because there is nothing in the Bill which would inhibit Lord Campbell-Savours: A local authority registration this kind of activity from taking place. officer might write a report to the democratic services Paragraph 10(1) of Schedule 1 states: committee or a department in the local authority “The Chief Counting Officer must take whatever steps the saying, “I wish to proceed on this basis because I officer thinks appropriate to encourage participation in the believe it is an appropriate way for me to encourage referendum”. participation”, and the local authority might say, “We That, of course, includes precisely the kind of co-operation are sorry but the money is not available and the suggested in the amendment. Moreover, I can assure Government are not going to reimburse us in the event my noble friend and the Committee that this kind of the expenditure takes place”. Surely that must have co-operation is already happening in practice. The legal implications for the position of the officer concerned. chief counting officer has established a working group, which includes regional counting officers, to co-ordinate Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I do not think that is activity ahead of the planned polls; and the commission’s how it would work. Reasonable expenditure will be plans for public awareness have been shared with this reimbursed by the Government. If the expenditure group, as well as with counting officers and electoral was unreasonable and extravagant and went beyond 1355 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1356 anything that could be considered reasonable, there Commission has found that the common factor was should not be an obligation on the Government to inadequate planning processes and contingency reimburse. I can reassure the noble Lord that reasonable arrangements—or, more to the point, that such expenditure for the purposes set out in paragraph 10(1) arrangements were not in place. and 10(2) would be reimbursed. The noble Lord has The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, quoted my right put forward a serious hypothetical situation, but anyone honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. He would accept that running a registration campaign quoted him accurately, but perhaps I should just quote was a reasonable thing to do. If someone went about it a little more of what he said. At Question Time in the in an extravagant way—which I cannot begin to think other place on 10 November, the Deputy Prime Minister of at the moment—that would be deemed unreasonable said: by most sensible people and it would not be reasonable “I happen to think that, in this instance, simply passing a law that taxpayers’ money should reimburse it. However, will not deal with the problem, which was a lack of resources and with a straightforward, reasonable campaign, the poor organisation by the returning officer, who acknowledged as Government would reimburse. much” —he was specifically talking about Sheffield, where On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, his own constituency is— the Scottish parliamentary elections will be counted “… That is what we need to address; we should not always simply first, ahead of the referendum. The selection of the reach for the statute book”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/10; First Minister does not normally follow the election col. 285.] anyway. I recall that in 2003 we did not get down to Officials have met the Electoral Commission, and negotiations about establishing a coalition until the indeed electoral administrators, to discuss the issue of Monday after the election. Nevertheless, the point managing queues at polling stations. It is clear that remains that the Scottish election count will take there are divergent views on the effectiveness of any precedence over the referendum count. legislative change, and a significant number of There is a link between this amendment and the administrators are not in favour of it. Again, that is a amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, which reflection of the fact that the problems in that particular relates to the role of the chief counting officer and the case in May last year were because of planning failures powers available to her. Sentiments have been expressed and the lack of effective contingency planning. in the debate, as on other occasions, that democratic Given the divergence of views that exist on the people were profoundly perturbed by the scenes they specific recommendation of the Electoral Commission saw on the night of the last general election when and given that there is the general consensus that the people were not allowed to exercise their democratic problems largely arose from poor planning, we believe rights. Paragraph 10(1) of the schedule states: there is a need for significant additional discussion “The Chief Counting Officer must take whatever steps the before any change to legislation should be proposed, if officer considers appropriate to encourage participation in the indeed that is eventually deemed appropriate. There referendum”. needs to be buy-in from all those who would be The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, involved in administering elections. would provide that: Under the Bill, we consider that the chief counting “These steps shall include measures to ensure that all those officer already has the necessary powers to provide wishing to vote and arriving at the polling station within the appropriate guidance, training and support to the appointed hours are able to do so”. regional counting officers, as well as to counting officers Clearly, the amendment is intended to address the themselves, to help address the issues that arose in scenes and situations we experienced in May last year. May 2010. I am aware that some of the contingency arrangements have already changed the ratio of polling I can assure the Committee that we take very seriously clerks to the number of voters at each polling place. the problems that arose at certain polling stations. The We think there is certainly a need for more discussion Government have been considering the Electoral as to all the potential consequences of any legislative Commission’s report on the issue and, in particular, amendment before a change to the principles underlying the recommendation that the law be changed to allow the existing electoral rules is considered. In these people who have not been issued with a ballot paper circumstances there is some benefit to having the certainty but are in the queues at 10 pm to vote. We are not of the present rules, admittedly with the back-up role convinced or satisfied that the amendment would enable that the chief counting officer has the authority to play the chief counting officer to direct that ballot papers in giving the necessary guidance, training and support. are issued after 10 pm—if, indeed, that is the intention of the amendment. As the noble Lord indicated in his Lord Lipsey: Perhaps two things are getting confused speech when he spoke to the amendment, the Electoral here. My amendment would not deal with the strict Commission report noted that that was not possible legislative problem that the Electoral Commission because it would not comply with the law. Clearly, the originally identified. That is still under discussion and chief counting officer cannot issue a direction that I agree this is not the appropriate time to put that contravenes the existing law. As the noble and learned right. However, my amendment would convey to returning Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, indicated, that is officers the extreme importance that Parliament attaches possibly not something that could be done in the to tackling these problems. Yes, it would be a declaratory context of this legislation for a referendum alone. piece of legislation, but that is not without force in this I will try to deal with the other point in a bit more world. The noble Lord might like to reflect on the detail. It is important to note that in most cases where point that, if he rejects this proposal, it will seem as if the problems occurred in May last year, the Electoral the Government are not really taking on board the 1357 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1358

[LORD LIPSEY] Paragraph 5(5) of Schedule 1 explicitly gives the depth and importance of the problems that arose and chief counting officer powers to direct counting officers the reactions of electors to them. I do not think that is in the discharge of their functions. I thought long and good for the Government and I do not think it is good hard about this and consulted—if he will not mind for government, as a matter of fact. my saying so—with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who knows a thing or two about Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I cannot accept the interpretation. We agreed that the reference there to second part of what the noble Lord has said, because the power to direct is with regard to the conduct of a the Government accept that what happened in May referendum. If the Minister looks back on paragraph 5, last year was serious. There is no doubt about that. he will see that it is about the conduct of the poll, the Anyone reading this debate would realise that the view printing of ballot papers, the issue and receipt of on all sides of the Committee is that the situation was postal ballot papers, verification and counting of votes serious. I hope to reassure the noble Lord—who accepts cast—that is, solely and exclusively a power of direction that his amendment would not change the legislative on technical and practical matters. basis for that—that there is a distinction to be made, Lastly, the Minister said that he thought that the given that it was accepted that in the cases last year the situation would be endangered by my amendment common factor was one of poor planning. In this case, because he said that, if there was a right of “knocking there will be a chief counting officer, who will have a heads together” among these five categories of officer, responsibility and already be aware—not least because it might involve consultation with outside bodies. However, of the dual role with the Electoral Commission—about there is no mandate whatever for that in my amendment. the importance of this issue. I am sure the chief If the Minister says that I have got it wrong— counting officer will be well aware of the sentiments expressed and the important and serious points made Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I apologise if I did not in this debate. If the noble Lord’s aim was to get a express the matter clearly. What I said was that one message across, his amendment has provided a very effect of requiring co-operation among certain named helpful forum and opportunity to get that message bodies is that it might raise a question about whether across. She has the powers, we believe, to provide the it is also permissible to consult other bodies that are appropriate guidance, the appropriate training and the not mentioned there. In other words, if you are mandated appropriate support so that these issues will be addressed to consult A, B, C and D, it may raise a question if you and the kind of situation that we saw on May 2010 wish actually to consult F. will not arise again. Against that background, I ask the noble Lords not Lord Phillips of Sudbury: There is no reference in to press their amendments. my amendment to consultation. This is a power of facilitation and of co-operation among the five sets of Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I really did not officers mentioned. There is no question of consultation, want to make heavy weather of this amendment, but I implied or otherwise. This is solely and exclusively have to say that my noble friend the Minister’s response among these five sets of people. gave a series of legal interpretations with which I have I am not a happy mover, I might say, and I would be to disagree. It is unfortunate that I have to disagree, grateful before I withdraw the amendment if the Minister but I do, even though I know that he is advised in these would agree that this needs further consultation between matters and one normally accepts such advice to be us. If indeed his arguments prove to be fallacious—he beyond question. started by sympathising with the sentiment of my The first argument advanced by the Minister was amendment—at least there will be the consideration that paragraph 10(1) says: that a further amendment could be brought back at “The Chief Counting Officer must take whatever steps the the next stage. officer thinks appropriate to encourage participation”. He said that such a provision allows the chief counting Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am more than happy officer to direct the other officers—regional counting to do that. Just looking at it briefly, I think that there officers and so on—as to what to do and how to do it. is a difference of opinion—not as to intention, but as I think that is simply wrong. There is no implication of to our interpretation—and I more than happy to try a power of direction in that sub-paragraph. His second to resolve that with my noble friend. argument— Lord Phillips of Sudbury: On that basis, I am happy Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I think that I noted to withdraw the amendment. that, when undertaking the responsibility, the chief counting officer can use her power of direction under Amendment 110ZA withdrawn. paragraph 5(5) of Schedule 1 to require action. I think that I emphasised the importance of co-operation—which Amendment 110ZB not moved. is both permissible and happening in practice—but I referred to paragraph 5(5) in relation to powers of direction. Amendment 110A Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I was coming on to 110A: Schedule 1, page 20, line 13, leave out “appointed under paragraph 5(5), but I am afraid that my first point section 8 of the 1983 Act” stands. If the Minister looks back at Hansard, he will see that I am right. Amendment 110A agreed. 1359 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1360

Amendment 110B Amendment 112 Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock 110B: Schedule 1, page 24, line 26, at end insert— 112: Schedule 1, page 26, line 18, at end insert— “( ) The Chief Counting Officer is entitled to recover expenses “( ) with the addition at the end of paragraph (b) of— incurred by that officer for or in connection with the referendum if— “(c) the petitioner’s interest alone shall be sufficient to (a) the expenses are of a kind that would otherwise have enable a petition to be lodged”” been incurred by counting officers or Regional Counting Officers, and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I am pleased (b) the Chief Counting Officer considered that it would be to move this amendment. It was suggested to me last more economical for the expenses to be incurred by that year by the Law Society of Scotland and I tabled it last officer instead.” November—it seems like quite a long time ago. The Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, this group amendment clarifies the basis on which a judicial contains Amendments 110B, 110C, 110C, 110D and review of the certification by the chief or regional 110E. The amendment would give the Chief Counting counting officers of the ballot papers counted or votes Officer, who is chair of the Electoral Commission, the cast in the referendum may be taken. As the Minister power to incur expenses for the effective conduct of will know better than anyone present, now that the the referendum and in certain limited circumstances, noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has left the make payments in respect of those expenses out of Chamber, judicial review is different in Scotland from moneys to be provided from the consolidated fund. other parts of the United Kingdom. In Scotland, a I can assure the Committee that the Chief Counting petitioner must have both title and interest to sue. In Officer will be able to spend conduct moneys only where England, only interest is required. We submitted as doing so provides a clear financial benefit. The Royal inequitable in the context of a referendum on United Mail, for example, has indicated that it may be able to Kingdom voting that the challenges to the count are provide a cheaper service for the sweeps of mail centres—a based on separate legal rights north and south of the service that ensures that any votes still in the mail centres border. In order to have title to sue, a person, towards the end of polling day are identified, extracted “must be a party…to some legal relationship which gives him and provided to returning and counting officers before some right which the person against whom he raises the action the close of poll that evening—if it can contract for either infringes or denies”. this on a national basis with one individual rather This is from the case of Nicol (D & J) v Trustees of the than having to negotiate and contract with more than Harbour of Dundee 1915. 350 officers who will be conducting the poll at local level. In his Report of the Scottish Civil Courts Review, The amendment would help to make the administration Lord Gill, the Lord Justice Clerk, has recommended of the referendum easier for the Chief Counting Officer in paragraph 25 that the current Scots law on standing and for counting officers, and provides an opportunity for is too restrictive and that the separate tests of title and savings to be made on the conduct of the poll. I beg interest should be replaced by a single test: whether to move. the petitioner has demonstrated a sufficient interest in the subject matter of the proceedings. This would Lord Falconer of Thoroton: This seems very sensible, make the position the same in Scotland as it is in but I am slightly bewildered. How on earth does the England for anyone who wanted to challenge the Chief Counting Officer not have that power anyway? result of the referendum, as recommended by Lord Gill. The amendment seeks to give effect to that Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, when this issue recommendation. arose, the view was taken that it was uncertain that that power existed and hence there was the need to put 6.45 pm it beyond peradventure that it did. The issue was flagged Lord Falconer of Thoroton: This is an important up by the example of the Royal Mail that I gave, and point which my noble friend Lord Foulkes has put so there was concern that that power did not exist. As the accurately. The position should not be different in noble and learned Lord says, it is a sensible power and England and Scotland. In England, interest is sufficient, one which I hope will commend itself to the Committee. which means a general interest—almost in a layman’s sense—in the subject matter, whereas in Scotland, Amendment 110B agreed. interest and title are needed, title meaning, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said, some legal relationship Amendments 110C to 110E which gives them a right to sue. The amendment Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness would make Scotland and England the same in relation to whether you are entitled to challenge an electoral 110C: Schedule 1, page 24, line 30, after “account” insert “of a process which is identical on both sides of the border. counting officer or Regional Counting Officer” That seems sensible. I would be interested to hear what 110D: Schedule 1, page 24, line 36, after “Officer” insert “or the Minister has to say. the Chief Counting Officer” 110E: Schedule 1, page 24, line 42, at end insert “or the Chief Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful to the Counting Officer” noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for bringing this amendment Amendments 110C to 110E agreed. forward. He and I well know that the matter has been raised by the Law Society of Scotland. Indeed, I Amendment 111 not moved. tabled a similar amendment in the previous Parliament. 1361 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1362

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] Lord Falconer of Thoroton: That is very helpful. I The amendment would amend the provisions so read the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of that a challenge brought through judicial review in Tankerness, as saying that the current requirement in Scotland can be launched if its purposes are on the Scotland for judicial review is title and interest. He is same basis as proceedings elsewhere. In Scotland, expressing the view from the Dispatch Box that if you there are two separate tests for bringing judicial review, were an elector in the relevant election that you wished in that a petitioner has to demonstrate both title and to challenge—the referendum—that would give you interest, whereas in England, Wales and Northern title and interest for the purpose of Scottish judicial Ireland there is a single test of interest alone. review. That being so, the difficulties and dangers of The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, also mentioned the trying to do an ad hoc change here do not arise and we recommendation made by Lord Gill, the Lord Justice should be reassured that any elector would be able to Clerk, in his Report of the Scottish Civil Courts Review. bring a judicial review challenge in Scotland, just as However, I am concerned that because of the way in they would in England. which this amendment is drafted, it will not have the desired effect. By stating that, Lord Wallace of Tankerness: As I am sure the noble and learned Lord knows, these will ultimately be matters “the petitioner’s interest alone shall be sufficient to enable a petition to be lodged”, for the court but that is certainly our understanding, or my belief. it has almost gone too far and would effectively disapply the need to establish all other matters when considering Lord Neill of Bladen: Before the noble and learned a case for judicial review—including, indeed, whether Lord finishes on that point, I feel some concern that there is sufficient legal grounds for a challenge. he is not prepared to put on to the statute book the The other, perhaps more practical, point is that it is view which he has just expressed: that title and interest difficult to see what the practical effect would be, as we would necessarily be found by a court to exist here. think it is likely that the Scottish courts would entertain The worry would be that there could, theoretically, be a judicial review from any elector entitled to vote at people advising in Scotland who will be unaware of the referendum or at parliamentary elections and any the discussion now taking place and of the deliberate permitted participant. By their very nature, they have abstention from following up Lord Gill’s advice on a an interest—they were taking part in the election. one-off basis on this very point, where there is potentially We should be mindful of the fact that this issue a conflict between the practice in Scotland and that in goes wider than the referendum alone. It raises important England. Would it not be possible to think of some issues about the nature of judicial review in Scotland, way of putting on to the statute book information so not least those flowing from Lord Gill’s report, and that anyone advising would see that title and interest the circumstances in which they should be permitted were thought to be, by the Minister or by the Government, to raise petitions for judicial review. That is an important both present in this case? issue. It is one that undoubtedly is receiving detailed consideration, not least by the Scottish Government Lord Wallace of Tankerness: That is an important and the Scottish Parliament. It would not be helpful if point, one which I wish to reflect on. I think it is this Bill somehow tried to pre-empt it on an ad hoc satisfactory as it stands, but I understand what the basis, particularly, as I have indicated, we believe that noble Lord is saying: that there may be circumstances an elector in Scotland would be able to raise a petition. where, in the absence of any reference, someone may not appreciate that fact. Without making any commitment, I will look at that and see whether there Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: On the key point, is the is a way. As I have indicated, as the amendment stands Minister saying that because of the recommendation there is a problem, too. In fact on interest alone, of Lord Gill, he believes that a petitioner in Scotland regardless of anything else, it would qualify and I am could raise it on interest alone, without any title, so it sure that is not what the noble Lord intended. would in effect be the same as in England? I am not quite clear. I think I am right in saying that the debate on whether the schedule be agreed is also a part of this, but perhaps I can reply later to that debate as part of Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, if the noble this group. Lord would bear with me, the Lord Justice Clerk, Lord Gill, recommends in his report that the separate Lord Campbell-Savours: Perhaps I might speak to it test of title and interest be replaced by a single test, now. that test being where the petitioner has demonstrated a sufficient interest in the subject matter of the proceedings. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: If it makes it easier, That is not specific to this referendum. We have a quite yes. important change in the law of judicial review in Scotland anyway and it goes along with numerous Lord Campbell-Savours: I want to go back to my other recommendations on civil procedure in the Scottish earlier intervention. As I understood the noble and courts. These matters are, I am aware, under consideration, learned Lord’s reply, under paragraph 10(5), the Minister but it would not be appropriate in this Bill to do it on a may reimburse reasonable expenses incurred by a one-off basis, particularly in circumstances where we registration officer for a local authority. Now, if the believe that being a participant in the referendum, one Government are in a position to reimburse such reasonable would qualify to challenge, if indeed that situation expenditure prior to the referendum, should that should ever arise. information not be communicated to local authorities? 1363 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1364

It might well be that some local authorities want to the Treasury. It might be that this is, as it were, run a blitz campaign prior to the referendum, to language which is always in, and that it will of course increase registration. The Government appear, in the give that direction, but I thought that it was a very odd answer that the noble and learned Lord gave me, to be way of doing it. It would mean that we could not find to some extent offering them the resources as long as out how much had been spent on the referendum, but the expenditure is reasonable. Perhaps the Minister you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be a lot might write to me on this point, because I am sure that of questions asked about how much the referendum local authorities will have picked up on his responses cost at some stage. to my earlier interventions. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I probably Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am certainly more share the noble and learned Lord’s view. It is almost than happy to write to the noble Lord on that point. counterintuitive to think that the Treasury might in I do not think that I need to elaborate on what I said some way not wish that—well, it may be, I do not to him before. I want to indicate briefly that Schedule 1 know. Freedom of information requests might well makes provision about the key aspects of the conduct flow fast and furiously if that did not happen. Perhaps of the referendum and the regulation of the referendum if I talk long enough, I may get a definitive answer on campaign. The approach of the Government in doing whether this is indeed something that generally appears this has really been to replicate the provisions that are in such legislation or whether there is some reason made for parliamentary elections, where they are unbeknown to us. appropriate. However, there are some areas where we The answer is that it is part of the Electoral need to make specific provision to tailor-make the Commission’s accounting framework that it normally provisions for this referendum. On the campaign spending accounts to the Speaker’s office. I suspect that the and funding framework already in place for referendums, paragraph makes provision that the accounts in relation what there is under the PPERA will generally apply. to the referendum could be extracted. If that is incorrect, I commend this schedule to the Committee inasmuch I will ensure that a proper clarification is intimated to as it tries to replicate, wherever appropriate, the rules the noble and learned Lord and duly circulated. which are now well tried and tested. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: As the noble Lord the Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am grateful to the Leader of the House said, I am getting a sapling of an Minister and, particularly, to my noble and learned idea of what the reason is and I think I understand. friend Lord Falconer for their exchange, which helped This is not a major point, but perhaps the noble and to clarify the situation. I was surprised because this learned Lord could write. He should not bother to amendment was in fact drafted by our mutual friend write if the sapling of the idea is, as I think was said, Michael Clancy, who has done a lot of these before that we have to do it slightly differently because of this and understands parliamentary drafting very well. and that there will be accounts. If there will not be However, I was particularly grateful for the intervention accounts available, perhaps he should write; otherwise, from the noble Lord, Lord Neill, on the Cross Benches, we can forget it. and for the Minister’s response: that he will look at this again to see whether there is a way to achieve it so Schedule 1, as amended, agreed. that Scots and English people will have the same rights guaranteed on both sides of the border, without any Schedule2:Rules for conduct of the referendum court having to make a decision and without creating a precedent which might cause any difficulties for Amendment 112A other aspects of judicial review. On the basis that the Minister has been very helpful in giving me that assurance, Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. 112A: Schedule 2, page 29, line 8, leave out “25th” and insert “30th” Amendment 112 withdrawn. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I am grateful Amendment 112ZA had been withdrawn from the to be able to move Amendment 112A, which is grouped Marshalled List. with Amendments 112B and 112C. Amendments 112A and 112B are to some extent probing amendments, Debate on whether Schedule 1 should stand part of the while Amendment 112C goes a bit further than that. Bill. The first two refer to the publication of the notice of the referendum and the notice of poll. They would Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I should perhaps have change the publication of the notice of the referendum asked this before but, on page 25, Schedule 1 requires from not later than the 25th day before the day of the the Electoral Commission to, referendum to not later than the 30th day and the “prepare accounts in respect of their expenditure in relation to notice of poll from not later than the 15th day to not the referendum”, later than the 20th day. The idea of this is that in a only if, number of elections recently the elbow room between “directed to do so by the Treasury”. the publication of the notice and the notice of call and Is the Treasury going to give such a direction? It the actual referendum itself has not given enough time seems extraordinary that we would not know what for the issue of postal ballots or the return of postal the expenditure of the Electoral Commission was on ballots and all the other procedures in between that the referendum unless a direction had been given by need to take place. 1365 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1366

7pm Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of my noble friend’s Amendment 112C. There Part of this is caused by the postal service being no are two types of people in particular that this amendment longer quite as fast as it used to be, when we used to would help. There is still what is called a three-shift get guaranteed delivery of first-class letters the next pattern in factories and elsewhere of 6 am to 2 pm, day, and partly because the administration is becoming 2 pm to 10 pm, which known as a back shift, and much more complicated. The administration in this 10 pm to 6 am on a night shift. I worked that pattern case, particularly Scotland and Wales, will be even myself for many years. The 6-to-2 shift sounds great—you more complicated because for postal ballots there will get into work at 6 am, finish at 2 pm and have the rest be three ballot papers sent to some, two to others and of the day to yourself. Unfortunately, most people one to others. It is a very complicated exercise which who have worked that shift will tell you that they has to be carried out in a limited period of time. spend most of the afternoon lying asleep on the couch, Before the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, jumps up trying to catch up with the disruption to the normal and says that this only deals with the referendum and sleep pattern and normal shift pattern. You can wake that there are elections as well, let me say that I fully up feeling disorientated at times. It may sound a bit understand that consequential amendments will be silly but I can assure people that the disruption to your required in relation to that if we agree Amendments 112A normal pattern, in working that three-shift pattern, and 112B. But more elbow room needs to be given. can have that effect on you. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, having been There is also the back shift between 2 pm and involved in so many elections, my noble friend Lord 10 pm. It sounds great—you can get up in the morning Collins, who masterminded elections for a number of and have time to do plenty of things before you start years, and others who have been involved in elections work at two o’clock. But you can have quite an extended will know that that timetable has created some problems travel time to get to work for 2 pm and, with other for those involved in the practical operation of elections things to do in the morning, you may find that by the and referenda. time you finish work at 10 pm the polling station is Amendment 112C would change the polling hours, closed. As for the people who do the night shift, again currently 7 am to 10 pm, to 6 am to 11 pm. I think that it sounds great, as you have plenty of time during the we should do everything possible to make it easier for day, but ask anyone who works the night shift and people to vote. Extending the arrangements for postal they will tell you that their day is disrupted. If there is voting has been particularly helpful. The fact that you a constantly changing shift pattern, working a different no longer have to prove that you are incapacitated to shift each week following the 6-to-2, 2-to-10 and 10-to- get a postal vote and that people on holidays can get 6 three-shift pattern, I can assure your Lordships that postal votes has made it easier for such people to vote. there is a disruption to the patterns of sleep and behaviour. I would like to see us move towards a situation The second category is a new and developing pattern where voting took place at weekends so that you did to which my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock not have to rush to do so on a working day between has referred. This is the growing number of people 7 am and 10 pm. If you could vote on either a who manage two jobs, particularly women. It always Saturday or a Sunday, that would take account of seems to be women who get landed with the part-time religious objections to voting only on a Sunday and jobs, though they are not quite cheap labour thanks to would make it much easier for people to cast their the Labour Government’s national minimum wage vote. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, if law that was opposed by the Liberals and Tories at the that were agreed for the referendum, there would be time. Nevertheless, these people are trying to keep two consequential amendments in relation to the election. jobs going and are rushing between them. An extra I have accepted that I cannot change the dates to hour’s voting time at the end of the day will give Saturday and Sunday. However, I have been more people an extended opportunity to vote. modest and suggested an hour earlier in the morning I believe that that category of part-time workers is and an hour later at night. We were talking earlier growing. Again, I do not like it but they are mostly about people in Sheffield and elsewhere turning up at women workers because they have got to snatch a job 10 pm and not being able to vote at the last election, of two or three hours to cope with child care and all and this proposal is one way of resolving that. It gives the rest of it. They have to dive back, run a house, and a bit more time for people to vote in the complicated probably get their man fed and out to work. There are election and referendum situation that we are going to some areas in the world where women still do not have have. It also takes into account different working a proper place in life. Keeping family together falls patterns. harder on women than on men, and I regret to say that Some people find it difficult to vote between 7 am a sexist society still operates like that. I would certainly and 10 pm, and anything that makes it easier for them support anything that can help women and part-time to do so will be helpful. There are people who start workers in that category. I would indicate my strong work at 7 am and, for their own reasons, may not be support particularly for Amendment 112C. able to get to the polling station by 10 pm. There are people whose life patterns and activities have changed. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My noble friend Lord There are some people who are doing two jobs who Rooker has Amendment 113 in this group, but he has will find it difficult. This just makes it that little bit had to leave. It is effectively the same as the amendment easier for people to get to vote and anything that helps tabled by my noble friend Lord Foulkes in that it in that direction should be encouraged. proposes that the polls should shut at 11 pm. The 1367 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1368 point has already been made but it seems a good thing issued, or until they receive their official poll card, to that the time should be extended for people to vote. change their voting arrangements should they wish to There may be reasons why that is a bad thing. I will do so. wait to hear what the Minister says. I turn now to the amendment on polling hours. It is The next group of amendments, which would have an important amendment and important arguments been moved by my noble friend Lord Rooker, but have been adduced in its favour. It would extend the which I will move because he cannot be here, seek to polling hours for the referendum, which could be deal with the overcrowded polling stations issue, which difficult for polling staff and polling agents. It may we have already discussed and in which there was an even be difficult for people who rely on public transport impressive intervention by the noble and learned Lord, to get to a polling station for 6 am for the opening of Lord Mackay of Clashfern. There was quite broad the poll. At the end of the day, extending the close of support for the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, poll by one hour could have implications for the staff Lord Phillips. The amendment that proposes that the at the time of verification, not least in those cases polls should shut at 11 pm, as opposed to 10 pm, where two polls will be combined on one day. However, might, subject to the information that the Minister perhaps more importantly, it could be confusing to has, be of assistance in relation to that. If the number voters to have polls taking place on the same day but of people who would vote between 10 pm and 11 pm closing at different times. Under this proposal, voters was quite low—even though there might be a late would turn up before 7 am or after 10 pm to vote in surge—it would reduce the likelihood of what happened the referendum, but would perhaps be told that they in the previous general election happening again. It were unable to vote in the Scottish parliamentary might, for that additional reason, be worth contemplating. election, the Welsh National Assembly election or some of the local government elections in England. I suspect Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I thank the noble that would increase, rather than reduce, the possibility Lord, Lord Foulkes, for raising these issues with his of voters missing their opportunity to vote, which amendments, which would provide electors with earlier could cause some dissension. notice of the referendum and give voters extra hours The important point, which I think the noble Lord, to cast their ballots. As noble Lords are aware, it is the Lord Foulkes, mentioned, is that the opportunities for Government’s intention that the referendum should postal voting and voting by proxy are now such that if be held on 5 May. Therefore, any alterations to the the current polling hours are unsuitable for electors, timetable and the hours of polling proposed for the they still have the opportunity to vote. I readily accept referendum would inevitably create inconsistencies between that in many cases work patterns and family patterns the rules governing the referendum on the one hand may make it difficult, but it is now possible to vote and those governing the elections scheduled to take either by proxy or by post. As we all know from taking place on 5 May, with which the referendum will be a keen interest in elections, the number of postal votes combined, on the other. Fundamentally, this would be has increased considerably; obviously a good number confusing and unhelpful for voters. Noble Lords may of people take that opportunity. It may be that the already have noted that that view is supported by the message about opportunities for postal and proxy Electoral Commission. The amendment would also be voting can be reinforced in the context of information inconsistent with the combination of rules in Schedules 5 relating to the polls. to 8 to the Bill. It is also important that the issue regarding the I turn to the first part of the amendment, which timetable for the polls goes wider than the referendum deals with the referendum timetable and the issuing of alone. It should perhaps be reviewed in the longer the notice of poll. With the exception of the Scottish term for future national elections and referendums. parliamentary election, the 25-day timetable will be With these words and assurances, I hope the noble used for all other polls that are scheduled to take place Lord will withdraw his amendment. on 5 May 2011. During the Bill’s passage through Parliament, we specifically amended the deadline for 7.15 pm issuing the notice of poll from 16 to 15 days before the date of the poll. The noble Lord’s amendment would Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I find that a very helpful take that up to 20 days before the date of the poll. The reply. The Minister has explained and answered the purpose of the amendment was to ensure that a consistent points raised very well. We could have altered the deadline for the publication of the notice of poll hours for all the elections as well as the referendum if applied for most of the polls that will be combined we had had more time but we are rushed in this and across the United Kingdom. must do everything by 5 May. That is part of the problem. However, given that we cannot change the Only in Scotland will the deadlines for publication time for elections, it would be right— of the notice of the two combined polls be different from each other, due to a slightly different timetable that applies to Scottish parliamentary elections. However, Lord McAvoy: I accept what my noble friend says moving the deadline to 20 days before the poll would about the Minister’s reply, but is there some way, lead to inconsistency right across the United Kingdom through the amendment, the schedule or elsewhere, to and potential confusion for voters and electoral initiate a pilot project somewhere, or at some point in administrators. The Electoral Commission will take another election? That would test those hours. I am steps, however, to ensure that electors are aware of the particularly interested in Amendment 112C. Could we referendum before the statutory timetable commences, look at the possibility of some kind of pilot in an and electors will not have to wait until notice of poll is election in a selected area to see if it made any difference? 1369 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1370

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: That is a very interesting ‘Mark one box only. Put no other mark on the ballot paper, or suggestion. Although we are rushed in this, I hope your vote may not be counted’”. that, for future elections, the Electoral Commission If noble Lords turn to page 61, they will see that, could look at longer hours and, perhaps, different instead of “Mark one box only”, the wording in the days. I think the Minister said towards the end of his second paragraph of the notice given there is: reply that he wanted this. Pilots have been done. As my “Vote in one box only”. noble friend Lord Collins would remind me, we had If noble Lords go to page 67, line 25, they will see the an all-postal-vote pilot in the north of England, which phrase: had a very interesting result. I should perhaps have “Vote in ONE box only. Do not put any other mark on the declared my interest as a postal voter. I accept what ballot paper”. the Minister has said but I hope we will look at ways in If noble Lords go to page 74, they will see in paragraph 2: which we can make it easier for people to vote, such as “Vote in one box only. Put no other mark on the ballot paper”. voting at weekends and longer voting hours. If it can My noble friend Lord Rooker says that “Mark one be done with one or two pilots, as my noble friend box only” and, Lord McAvoy said, that would be very useful. In view “Vote in one box only”, of the Minister’s very helpful reply, I will withdraw the amendment. say the same thing; that it is confusing to have different phrases on different notices; and that we should use the same phrase, Amendment 112A withdrawn. “Vote in one box only”, right across the notices given to electors. That seems extremely sensible, so his amendment, which affects Amendments 112B to 114 not moved. page 35, rule 17(7), is to take out the words “Mark one box only” and put in the words Amendment 115 “Vote in one box only”, because that is the phrase used everywhere else. It is Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton difficult to imagine—though I am quite sure that the 115: Schedule 2, page 32, line 24, at end insert “but no polling noble and learned Lord will have some clever answer station shall be allocated more than 1050 electors” for this—why different phrases were used. The first two amendments avoid the chaos. The third amendment—I am not sure why it is in this Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I will move group, but it is easy to deal with in this group—is to and speak to the amendments in this group on behalf ensure consistency in the instructions given to electors. of my noble friend Lord Rooker. There are three of I beg to move. them, two of which seek to deal with the chaos at the end of the general election. On page 32, paragraph 13(1) of Schedule 2 to the Bill, “Rules for the Conduct of the Referendum”, provides that: Lord Grocott: My Lords, one rarely sees an amendment “The counting officer must provide a sufficient number of in the name of my noble friend Lord Rooker that does polling stations and, subject to the following provisions of this not have a huge amount of common sense within it. rule, must allot the electors to the polling stations in whatever We all remember what happened at the general election, manner the officer thinks most convenient”. where people were queueing at polling stations because My noble friend Lord Rooker proposes that that be the flow of people simply could not be accommodated, amended so that, and we can all agree that at this referendum election “no polling station shall be allocated more than 1050 electors”. there is certainly going to be more confusion than there is at a normal parliamentary election, where If you put a limit on the number of electors sent to a everyone understands what is required of them. It is polling station, you reduce the chance of there being the simplest possible thing to have to do—put a cross the chaos that there was at the previous general election. by their favoured candidate—and we all accept the The next amendment in this group is Amendment 120. result; at least, the vast majority of us accept the At page 35 of the Bill, paragraph 17(1) says: result. “The counting officer must provide each presiding officer with What the noble Lord proposes here would be desirable however many ballot boxes and ballot papers the counting officer in any event, if we were just going through the same thinks are necessary”. system as we did at the last general election, but given My noble friend Lord Rooker proposes amending that we are going to have polling stations where there that to ensure that the counting officer in every ballot is more than one decision being made and where station has as many ballot papers as there are electors electors will confront, for the first time, the option of allocated to that polling station. That is sensible because the alternative vote and have to understand what is it means that they cannot run out of ballot papers. involved, there is bound to be confusion. I predict Again, it is a way of reducing chaos. with complete certainty that, should we go down the The final amendment in this group is Amendment 121. road to AV, there will be far more spoiled ballot papers On page 35—I know all noble Lords are following this than there normally are—that has been the case with in their own copies of the Bill because it is so completely every move away from first past the post. Staying with fascinating—sub-paragraph (7) says: the referendum, there will be people who will seek the “In every compartment of every polling station there must be advice of polling clerks. I do not know what the law is exhibited the notice— if they seek that advice. Are the polling clerks expected 1371 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1372 to explain what the choice is, or are they supposed to It is the responsibility of electoral administrators to keep quiet about absolutely everything if a potential provide for the smooth running of the voting process elector is confused? in elections, and that includes contingency plans to I hope that the Committee will accept my proposition cater for events such as when there is a higher than that this is going to be more complicated than a expected turnout at one or more polling stations for general election. I hope that the Committee will accept which they are responsible for allocating voters and the evidence of their own television sets that, at the for staffing. The chief counting officer for the referendum last general election there were polling stations that is, of course, the chair of the Electoral Commission simply could not cope with the number of electors and she has the power to direct all other counting coming at a particular time. It must therefore follow, officers across the United Kingdom who administer surely, that we need to make special provisions for this the referendum. The Electoral Commission has indicated very unusual election where there is bound to be more that the chief counting officer intends to issue directions confusion. I cannot be confident that there will be to counting officers as to the maximum number of large numbers of people voting, but we need to allow electors to be allocated to any polling station and the for that and we clearly were not allowing for that associated minimum number of staff to be present at effectively at the last general election. Amendment 115 each polling station. As I indicated in response to an is presented with characteristic simplicity and common amendment moved earlier by the noble Lord, Lord sense in the name of my noble friend Lord Rooker and Lipsey, the Electoral Commission has already started I strongly support it. to issue guidance to counting officers on the number of polling staff who will be required. I am therefore concerned that the amendment would Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I want, very remove any discretion, both of the chief counting briefly, to remind civil servants, when they are drawing officer and of all other counting officers, to decide up the wording as currently set out in the Bill, of what how many electors should be allocated to each polling happened with the ballot paper in the first mayoral station and the number of staff who should be present elections in London. We had made recommendations at each polling station. To give an example, it does not as to what should be on the ballot paper; the civil seem sensible to require that a village of, say, 1,200 servants basically took over the agenda and wrote the electors should have two polling stations when there is question; I objected very strongly, but of course as no suggestion that previous arrangements for that usual, I was overruled on the detail; and the result was village have proved inadequate. Indeed, it might even that a lot of ballot papers in the first mayoral elections mean that fewer staff were available at each polling in London were wasted because of the framing of the station to assist voters. It is that kind of flexibility question. which we would not like to remove from the chief Wording is crucial and I think it has to be politicians counting officer. who decide on that wording, because it is only we who We know that queues arose in the elections of May understand how electorates respond to certain language. last year primarily because of planning failures and Therefore, I hope that a debate takes place within the the lack of effective contingency planning. However, department about whether the current wording in we believe that at the polls being held in May this year, these areas of instruction is right and whether the better guidance, better staff training and support and wording that my noble friend wishes to introduce for better planning procedures in the run-up to the polls the benefit of people voting in the referendum might would be more appropriate and more effective in be better. The Minister should take this as a very addressing the issues that have been raised, as opposed serious amendment: it might not be the final wording, to placing statutory limits on the number of voters but let there be a further debate, because if it does not who can be allocated. I hope that the chief counting take place, the danger is that the events of the first officer’s stated intention to issue directions to counting mayoral elections in London may well be repeated. officers on this issue will reassure noble Lords and that the House will recognise that the amendment Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am grateful would reduce flexibility, and that that in turn could to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for tabling these increase risks and not necessarily prove good value for amendments; he indicated to me that he had to leave money. and that they would be spoken to by the noble and On the second amendment, which would oblige all learned Lord, Lord Falconer. They raise important counting officers to print 100 per cent of ballot papers, issues which it is very helpful for the Committee to I must say that until last year I always thought that have the opportunity to address. Amendment 115 that was the case anyway. The purpose is that they obliges by law that counting officers should not allocate should print the same number of ballot papers as more than 1,050 electors to any polling station within there are voters on the electoral register in their area of their voting areas. This is a very worthy and laudable responsibility.Currently, they must print only the number attempt to address the problems, referred to by the of ballot papers that they feel is necessary. noble and learned Lord in moving this amendment, which arose at some polling stations in the May 2010 election, when a number of electors were unable to 7.30 pm cast their votes due to queues forming at certain As the Electoral Commission notes, there were polling stations. Although these incidents were isolated, problems with ballot papers at the previous general they are certainly not taken lightly—I emphasise that election. The Report on the Administration of the 2010 again. UK General Election stated at paragraph 5.13: 1373 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1374

“We are also aware of some isolated reports that voters at a amendment with the Electoral Commission and the small number of polling stations may also have experienced other chief counting officer will bear this recommendation problems. These included … polling stations where supplies of in mind when publishing modifications to the forms, ballot papers ran out during polling day before being replenished”. as she is statutorily entitled to do under rule 10. Even though these incidents were isolated and do not Practical issues have been raised but I hope I have appear to have stopped anyone casting their votes, we reassured the Committee that an element of discretion certainly do not take that situation lightly. It is the is left to the Electoral Commission and that these very responsibility of electoral administrators to provide important issues are being addressed. On that basis I for the smooth running of the voting process. That ask the noble and learned Lord to withdraw the includes contingency plans to cater for events such as amendment. a higher than expected turnout. However, I hope to reassure the Committee that the Lord Grocott: I am not asking the noble and learned intention of the amendment can be achieved without Lord, Lord Wallace, to respond further; I just want to the need for its inclusion in primary legislation. The put the record straight. I am not sure that I made it chief counting officer for the referendum—as I have clear that my concern was not about holding local already indicated, she is also chair of the Electoral elections and a referendum on the same day but about Commission—has the power to direct all other counting the fact that the referendum itself was something officers who administer the referendum. Further entirely new. The question voters are going to be asked discussions with the Electoral Commission have identified is whether they support the first past the post system that the chief counting officer intends to direct all or the alternative vote system. However, a lot of people counting officers to print 100 per cent of their ballot will be confronted with that question for the first time papers. The Electoral Commission believes that the in their lives and it would not be surprising if they power of direction allows the chief counting officer to found filling in their ballot paper rather more confusing require counting officers to print ballot papers according than normal. to her direction. This allows her suitable flexibility to be able to decide what is right in particular circumstances, Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am extremely grateful should this be necessary. I hope that the chief counting to the noble and learned Lord for his detailed response. officer’s stated intention to direct that 100 per cent of However, unfortunately, it did not quite hit the mark ballot papers be printed will reassure the Committee, on any of the three amendments. I completely take his but equally we believe that the Electoral Commission’s point that it would be ridiculous to have two stations preference for the chief counting officer to have flexibility in certain places because you might have a village with in this area should also be respected. 1,051 electors. However, I wonder whether that would not be best dealt with by saying that the norm should Finally with regard to Amendment 121, I take the be 1,050 electors, save where there are exceptional point that wording is important. However, I do not circumstances, because generally you are trying to get accept the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to a figure of 1,050. that holding the local elections and the referendum Secondly, I was confused by the noble and learned together will cause huge difficulty given that last year Lord’s answer in relation to what the chair of the a general election and local elections were held together, Electoral Commission intends to do. I understood and that is not unprecedented. The amendment seeks him to say that she intends to direct that 100 per cent to modify the wording of the notice which must be of ballot papers be printed, but that she wants flexibility. exhibited in polling stations across the country on the But what does she want flexibility for if she intends to date of the poll. This is a helpful and sensible amendment instruct that 100 per cent of ballot papers be printed? and would ensure consistency with the formulation of Why not put in the Bill what I understood the first words used in a number of forms in the Bill, to which part of the noble and learned Lord’s answer to indicate the noble and learned Lord drew our attention, such what she intended to do? That would give certainty. as the postal voting statement, declaration of identity and proxy poll cards. The noble and learned Lord Thirdly, in relation to the difference between the asked me to explain the measure. I draw the Committee’s notice and the form, the noble and learned Lord took attention to rule 10 of this schedule on page 31 of the a good shot at this but I do not think that he said that Bill, which grants the chief counting officer responsible there was any particular reason why they were different. for administering the poll the discretion to amend the As my noble friend Lord Grocott says, this will be a voter-facing materials prescribed by the Bill for the completely novel experience for voters to vote on purposes of making these materials easier for voters to whether there should be first past the post or an use or understand. This encompasses the notice prescribed alternative vote system. There needs to be clarity. Yes, by rule 17(7), which is the subject matter of this he is right that the chief counting officer has the power amendment. to change the forms but the wording of the Bill is mandatory. For example, paragraph 17(7) states: I do not think that it would be helpful at this stage “In every compartment of every polling station there must be for the Committee to amend aspects of the Bill which exhibited the notice— are the subject of future modification by the chief ‘Mark one box only’”. counting officer. We know that she is considering the If I were the chair of the Electoral Commission, modifications that she may wish to make to these although I had a power to make changes, in the voter-facing materials, and the Government do not context of mandatory language I would feel safest, wish at this time to pre-empt any decisions which legally, in not making a change. We agree that it is she may take to amend them. However, I assure the much better if the wording is the same right across all Committee that the Government have discussed this the material. One of the purposes of scrutinising this 1375 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1376

Bill is to make it better, so let us make it better and 7.42 pm make it consistent in relation to all the places where its provisions will be applied. That would make for a Sitting suspended until not before 8.27 pm. better organised poll and would get rid of any difficulty or risk in that regard for the chair of the Electoral 8.27 pm Commission. I absolutely respect the effort that the noble and Amendment 122 learned Lord has made but my noble friend Lord Rooker may bring all three of these amendments Moved by Lord Bach back, with a slightly different amendment in one case 122: Schedule 2, page 38, line 37, leave out “anyone present” and broadly the same amendment in the other two. In and insert “the first elector” the case of the third amendment, it would help greatly if he were willing to go through the Bill and ensure Lord Bach: My Lords, I speak on behalf of my that the wording is consistent, as his officials can do noble friend Lord Rooker. This small amendment that much more quickly and much more consistently refers to the sealing of ballot boxes before the than we can. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the commencement of the poll, as provided for in the rules amendment. for conduct of the referendum given in Schedule 2 to the Bill. The schedule currently advises that the presiding Amendment 115 withdrawn. officer must show “anyone present” in the polling station immediately before the commencement of the Amendment 116 not moved. poll that the ballot box is empty. My noble friend’s argument—we do not make too much of this or say Amendment 116A that it is a major issue—is that this should be changed Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness to require the presiding officer to show “the first 116A: Schedule 2, page 33, line 1, leave out from “with” to elector” who comes to vote in that polling station that second “or” in line 2 and insert “paragraph (3) or (4),” the ballot box is empty. We believe that the amendment would add a degree Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, this is a of precision to the requirement on the presiding officer minor and technical amendment to correct a cross- and add to confidence in the legitimacy and validity of reference under rule 13(6)(a) of the referendum rules. the poll and its result. Being more specific about who The effect of this minor amendment is that the number is to see and verify that the ballot box is empty is a of ballot papers counted or votes cast may not be small but important symbol that the poll is to be questioned by reason of any non-compliance with the carried out properly. It is too vague to say “anyone provisions under rule 13(3) for England and rule 13(4) present”. That could be the cleaner or the person who for Wales, Scotland and relating to is with the presiding officer to help with the running of the provision of polling stations. Noble Lords will the poll. Why not require that the first elector who note that, as it stands, the reference is not to rule 13(3) comes through the door should see that the ballot box and rule 13(4) but rather to paragraph 13(5)(a) and is empty before casting their vote, which would be the (b). The purpose of this amendment is to get the first one in the box? As I said, this is not a major cross-reference correct. I beg to move. amendment, but I think that it deserves an answer. I beg to move. Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Just for clarity, the reason why sub-paragraph (5) is not now included as Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I rise briefly to support an exception in sub-paragraph (6)(a) is because it is the amendment, on which I will enlarge just a bit. We included in sub-paragraph (4). Is that right? Looking have good traditions and symbolism in British democracy. at it to start with you want it to apply to sub-paragraph (5) I have been an election agent and a candidate. I thought as well, but sub-paragraph (5) appears to go in the that it was the law that either the agent or candidate drafting because the deletion in the amendment goes could see inside each ballot box before it was locked. up to the second “or” in the second line. You would That happened regularly. Perhaps it was only in council not want a vote not to be counted if the polling station elections—I am not sure, but I used to see it quite happened to be in the wrong district. I assume that often. I agree very strongly with entrenching the symbolism sub-paragraph (5) is deleted because it is included in so that it is not just anyone who sees that part of the sub-paragraph (4), or am I wrong about that? I cannot procedure. Perhaps we could embellish our democracy see any reason why a technical failure of the position a bit by making a bit of a tradition and a bit of a show, of the polling station in Wales, Scotland or Northern to get people there and show that the box is indeed Ireland should vitiate the vote. I assume it is because empty. While folk may scorn that type of thing, the polling stations in sub-paragraph (5) are included nevertheless it would show clearly the symbolism that in sub-paragraph (4). Officials are nodding. It might our democracy is vibrant and seen to be so. be better if the noble and learned Lord says yes. 8.30 pm Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The noble and learned Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, this amendment Lord has accurately identified the issue and that is, as takes us back to the debates two years ago on the it were, the error that this amendment seeks to correct. Political Parties and Elections Bill, for which we took Amendment 116A agreed. Committee stage in the Moses Room. There were long debates on the whole issue of fraud in elections. From Amendments 117 to 121 not moved. the discussions that everyone had been having with the 1377 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1378

Electoral Commission and with Ministers during the Lord Myners: My noble friend is as sharp as ever on course of the debate, it was clear that the Electoral these issues. I had already given thought to that matter. Commission was bending over backwards to find ways I suggest to my noble friend that a ballot box could be of sorting out the problem of individual registration. transparent at the top, so that you could see your vote I tabled a number of amendments dealing with individual going in, but not transparent at the bottom where the registration but none in this particular area because it vote rested. That would perhaps address the issue. had not dawned on me at the time that, in the very I encourage the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, when different world in which we now live, there might be he engages with his colleagues in the Cabinet Office on those who, in certain conditions, might be prepared to further constitutional reviews, to give this some abuse the system. consideration. No major change is being asked in this amendment. However, it seems to me that my noble friend Lord This minor change would check that the first elector Rooker has made an entirely reasonable proposal that was the first elector, so that people would know whether in no way seeks to obstruct the intention of government there were ballot papers already in the ballot box, to policy. It would be commendable to the House and to put it bluntly. Even though fraud at this point in the the country as it would endorse the integrity of the process might not be prevalent, the proposed change balloting process and the confidence that we can have would help reassure the wider public that everything in the outcome of elections conducted through such a possible is being done to ensure that the electoral mechanism. system in this country has integrity. Lord Maxton: I support the amendment as well. Lord Myners: My Lords, I speak in support of I support my noble friend Lord Myners in his idea of Amendment 122. I think that it is a small but important a transparent box, whether or not the bottom is step; in fact, I would like to see us go further. It is transparent. I would rather we did not have ballot absolutely critical that we take every action within boxes at all and voted electronically, but that is a reasonable grasp to protect and enhance the integrity personal campaign which I have been running for a of the voting system, which has been brought into long time. I include in that this place as well. I notice disrepute in recent years. that we will be able to bring electronic devices into the I think particularly of the comments by the noble Chamber—but perhaps not yet—and then we can Baroness, Lady Warsi, about ballots that she believed start to vote through them as well. had been in contravention of correct process. I have one question for my noble friend who moved I acknowledge that at times it is difficult to tell whether the amendment. Who exactly is the first elector? In the noble Baroness is speaking on behalf of the certain circumstances, those who work at the polling Government, the coalition, the Conservative Party or station can be electors in that seat. They could be a faction within the Conservative Party. For example, I given the right to vote prior to the polls actually think of her comments immediately after the Oldham opening. That is a bending of the rules but I think it East and Saddleworth by-election about the right wing happens. It is an easy way to ensure that someone who of the Conservative Party. I also think of her comments is working all day has the opportunity to vote first. the previous night on BBC2’s “Newsnight” programme How would my noble friend respond to such in connection with the Royal Bank of Scotland—I circumstances? I think there is some case for saying regret I was unable to be in the House this afternoon that the rules must be absolute and that the polling when this matter was handled in Questions—when the station must not open until 7 or 8 am, whichever noble Baroness said that the Government were election it is, and that no one can vote before then. renegotiating contracts with executives of RBS. Since I have a suspicion that in the past people have been then, the Treasury has been very keen to suggest that it allowed to vote just before the polling station opens. is not doing anything of the sort. However, the comments made by the noble Baroness on electoral issues were Baroness Golding: Is it not possible that those in ones that we should take careful note of when considering charge of a polling station vote by post? They cannot this amendment. be in charge of themselves if they vote there in person. I would actually prefer a change in the design of the ballot box. I would like to see ballot boxes that are Lord Maxton: Yes. Being an elderly gentleman, I transparent, so that it is possible for people to see their have to accept that my experience of campaigning on vote going into the box. The amendment deals with the a personal level precedes most of the changes in the authenticity and the integrity of the ballot process rules as regards postal voting. My noble friend may only at the time when the first decision is made on a vote, very well have a point. I accept it is a minor point but I but I think that my proposal would bring huge confidence. hope it will be considered.

Lord McAvoy: My first reaction is that a transparent Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I support the ballot box could add to democracy and could be amendment. This election has the potential for some useful. On the other hand, when thinking of the interest among a new group of voters, which is a mechanics of polling day, one has to consider that particular interest of mine, as I have said before. sometimes people do not fold the ballot paper properly I know this probably was not the rationale behind this and if that happened in a transparent box it would situation, and that it was about the accuracy of and show who the person had voted for, or did not vote for, confidence in the vote, but there could be a certain which would render the vote invalid because someone jostling for position to be the first elector, which could was able to identify it. be quite exciting on an issue like this. 1379 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1380

I have, I promise, a very short anecdote to tell. At Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is right one time, the Labour Party was doing extremely badly in principle, but because we have this artificial deadline in the polls and in November 1983 a friend of mine of having to agree everything before the referendum took his young son with him to the polling station. on 5 May, I do not think that there would be the time I will not name my friend as I am not sure this is legal, to do that. Now I know why the noble Lord, Lord but his young son actually made the cross on the Rennard, enjoys being such a nitpicker. It is quite fun ballot paper and put it in the big black box. Thinking challenging the amendments put forward by Labour of the ballot as a lottery, the lovely little boy, who is Peers. now very grown-up, said, “Which one wins, Dad? Is it However, I think that the intention behind what my the first one out?”. In 1983, many Labour Party members noble friend suggests is absolutely right. In a number would have said, “If only”. of elections overseas, ballot boxes have been stuffed in What is interesting about that story, which has kept advance by supporters of one candidate or another with me, is the excitement of a young person going to and elections have been challenged. That could happen vote and the idea that the first elector would have a in a referendum. The principle is very important, role in the endorsement of the process. I am sure that notwithstanding the technical problem that I have any of us who are involved politically would make raised in the unavoidable absence of the noble Lord, sure that it was one of ours who was there, a young Lord Rennard. person or someone who had just got the voting right because they had become a British citizen. We would make something of that to give the citizen a particular Lord Strathclyde: The noble Lord, Lord Campbell- tick to that process. I hope that that may be given Savours, is right: it would be far better to deal with serious consideration. and debate these issues in another forum or on another Bill. We resist the amendment, which, apart from Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: In the unavoidable absence anything else, we believe to be defective. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, I will be nitpicking. requires the presiding officer immediately before the Surely, if this changes the regulations for the referendum, commencement of a poll to show the first elector, it will create problems if the old system will be continued rather than anyone present in the polling station, that for the local government and Scottish Parliament elections. the ballot box is empty. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, raised that point However, as the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, pointed several times in previous debates. It is a valid point out, no elector would be allowed into the polling and something that my noble friend Lord Bach should station prior to the poll commencing at 7 am, which address. I am not against that in principle but if we means that the presiding officer would be unable to have a different system for checking the ballot box for show the first elector that the ballot box was empty the referendum from that in the Scottish, Welsh and before the start of the poll. In addition to the timing local government elections, that might create problems. difficulties associated with the amendment, it can be argued that it is not necessary, as referendum agents Lord Maxton: My noble friend raises an interesting will be able to appoint polling agents who may observe point. If in the Scottish election on 5 May, the first the presiding officer showing the empty ballot boxes person in decides that they do not want to vote in the before they are sealed prior to the start of the poll. referendum at all and they only want to vote in the Therefore, the question does not arise. Scottish election, my noble friend’s point would be very apposite. 8.45 pm Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: It would be even stronger. Lord Bach: My Lords, I am not sure that it does not It is not just a question of whether they do not want arise. The current wording of the Bill is: to; they may not be eligible because, as I pointed out “Immediately before the commencement of the poll, the presiding on a number of occasions, some may be eligible to officer must show anyone present in the polling station that the vote in the Scottish Parliament elections; others will ballot box is empty”. be able to vote in the referendum only; most of I should perhaps have made this point in moving the us—including, at last, Peers—will be able to vote in all amendment, but what happens—and I do not suppose three. That creates some confusion as to who the first that this is normal—if the presiding officer is the only elector will be. person? The poll commences at a certain time. It must begin at the time set by statute or by statutory instrument. Lord Campbell-Savours: Is not the answer to the If he happens to be the only one who has turned up, Rennard question, on which my noble friend commented, the presiding officer would presumably have to show to find out when we can expect further legislation in anyone present and the only person present is himself. these areas? We know that a Bill is coming in on the I am sure that is not what is intended. The current funding of political parties. If the Long Title of that language is not satisfactory. Bill was sufficiently wide, we might introduce a whole I think my noble friend Lord Maxton is wrong on series of amendments governing elections and political this occasion. In almost every case that I know of, parties. That might well be the peg, and we should be those who work on elections do a great job as polling prevailing on the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, to push clerks and have postal votes. As my noble friend Lady his luck with Ministers to secure an early introduction Golding told the committee, they are obliged to have of legislation. postal votes because they do not know where they are 1381 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1382 going to go or which polling station they are going to as an individual Member. If we are a civilised House be at until quite a late stage. It seems a very sensible and we are to debate matters in a civilised way, we are rule. entitled to proper mealtimes, and I think an hour Because of the extraordinary support I had for this should be made available for dinner. I say to the amendment, I am very tempted indeed to seek the Patronage Secretary to the Government, the Government opinion of the Committee, but in spite of pleas from Chief Whip, that in future it would be very helpful if behind me, what has held me back is that I think the she could adopt a more civilised approach to our clinching point was made by my noble friend Lord dining arrangements in the evening. Foulkes. If we were to do it for the referendum only, it would leave a difference between practices in other elections and practices in the referendum. As my noble Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I hear, of friend said, the answer is that there should be government course, what the noble Lord says. This was an agreement legislation to amend electoral rules, but I cannot see with usual channels with his own Opposition Whips’ that legislation coming through in a great hurry, so Office this morning. No representation was made to with enormous reluctance I beg leave to withdraw the the contrary. It was an agreement made and, therefore, amendment. we stuck to our side of that agreement. The House does wish to hear views on the Schedule 2 Amendment 122 withdrawn. stand part debate. I am sure that the whole House wishes to make progress on this matter. Amendment 122ZA Moved by Lord Strathclyde Lord Campbell-Savours: All I am saying is that, as an individual Member of the House, I object. Whether 122ZA: Schedule 2, page 54, line 44, leave out from beginning it was agreed by the usual channels or not is of no to end of line 6 on page 55 and insert— particular interest to me. All I am saying is that I think “(a) in relation to a voting area in England or a voting area it is fair and more civilised that we can dine for a full in Wales that is not within sub-paragraph (b), the registration officer of the local authority in whose area hour. that voting area is situated; I would like now to move to Schedule 2. A particular (b) in relation to a voting area in Wales that comprises any part of the schedule that is of interest to me is the part of the area of more than one local authority, the question of the provision of polling stations, which is registration officer appointed under section 44(3)(b) of a matter of considerable controversy in constituencies the Electoral Administration Act 2006 in respect of the throughout the country. Rule 13(1) in Schedule 2 Assembly constituency that corresponds to that voting states: area. “The counting officer must provide a sufficient number of ( ) In paragraph (3)— polling stations and, subject to the following provisions of this “local authority” has the same meaning as in paragraph 4 of rule, must allot the electors to the polling stations in whatever Schedule 1; manner the officer thinks most convenient”. “Assembly constituency” means a constituency for the National Rule 13(2) states: Assembly for Wales.” “One or more polling stations may be provided in the same room” Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, Amendment 122ZA is Rule 13(3) states: a minor and technical amendment to the definition of “relevant registration officer” under rule 53 of the “In England, the polling station allotted to electors from any parliamentary polling district wholly or partly within a particular referendum rules. This amendment will ensure that in voting area must, in the absence of special circumstances, be in Wales, as is already the case in other parts of the the parliamentary polling place for that district unless the United Kingdom, the relevant registration officer will parliamentary polling place is outside the voting area”. be the same individual for both the combined polls. I Rule 9 refers to the use of schools and public rooms: beg to move. “The counting officer may use, free of charge, for the purpose of taking the poll— Amendment 122ZA agreed. (a) a room in a school within paragraph (3)”. Paragraph (3) of rule 9 then goes on to make provision Amendment 122A for schools in England and Wales, and in Scotland. Moved by Lord Strathclyde Now, the location of polling stations in individual constituencies—not only in elections, but particularly 122A: Schedule 2, page 57, leave out line 28 in this referendum—has a major effect on turnout. We cannot rely on a postal vote system, which some of us Amendment 122A agreed. have great reservations about anyhow although it was part of the package introduced by the previous Government. Debate on whether Schedule 2 as amended should be Of course, the Government themselves obviously had agreed. reservations about what they were doing on postal voting, but it was felt that those changes would bring Lord Campbell-Savours: Before I speak on Schedule 2, greater integrity into the electoral system. The question I shall comment on the arrangements for the dinner is, if turnout is affected by polling station location, to hour to place on record that I object. I understand what extent can the public indicate where they believe that there may have been agreement, but I am speaking polling stations should be situated? 1383 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1384

We know that parish authorities very often make do not have to vote this way, but for elderly and infirm representations to local authorities to secure the location. people, or for those whose vision is not as good as it Also, other organisations within individual communities was, there is a real problem about staying within the —schools, church groups, women’s institutes and all box—indeed, I have been known to stray outside the kinds of voluntary organisations—sometimes make box once or twice in my career, but not too often. representations. I have found over the years that very Again, I know that the Minister may have to take often there is indifference within local authorities to advice on this, but what happens if a voter filling in a the protests of people who object to the location of form for a postal vote does not keep the signature polling stations, particularly to where they are within the parameters of the box? Is the problem inconvenient. I remember that, in my then constituency simply that the signature cannot be read electronically in the county of Cumbria, on occasions I would go to but the vote will still be counted because someone will the local authority and say, “Look, provision here isn’t read it manually, or does it mean that the vote will not satisfactory”. Very often the local authority was very be counted? Obviously this question does not just sensitive, and changes would be made. apply to this form, but to others as well. I now live in Maidenhead and when I voted on the last occasion I had to drive a tremendous distance, Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I agree even within the town, to go and vote. When I got there, strongly with the comments made by my noble friend I found the polling station split into various sections, Lord Campbell-Savours. While it may not be appropriate all of which received electors coming in from various to deal with the issue in this Bill, the provision of an parts of Maidenhead. I believe that is wrong. The adequate number of polling stations ought to be of question is: what chance does an individual elector have great concern to the Government. I am lucky because to influence decisions on the location of polling stations? the polling station is in the street where I live, but that My view is that there should be some mechanism is not the case for a lot of people, who have to travel that is much more substantial than current arrangements many miles to get to their polling station. The Government for allowing individual electors and organisations to ought to look at that problem. At some point in the influence the location of these stations, particularly as future—obviously not now—there is a case for a proper their location affects turnout, which is now one of the revision of electoral law in this country so that it can major issues in Britain’s elections. We are seeing progressive be brought together for the production of some sort of reductions in turnout in both general and council consolidated Bill. elections, so we must find ways of addressing that problem. One way is to increase the number of polling Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: My Lords, I speak in stations. I hope that, in replying to this debate, the the debate on whether Schedule 2 should stand part of noble Lord might comment on this problem which I the Bill not from a passionate objection to anything think arises in many communities. in the schedule but as a means of impressing on the Leader of the House the importance of these paragraphs. Lord Soley: My Lords, I shall be brief, but I want to This is the bit where we should be able to transcend raise an issue that has troubled me in the past. party politics. This has been a closely fought part of The noble Lord will see that the form for a postal our legislative process, but at the end of the day the vote—form 2—is prescribed on pages 60 and 61 of the reality is that, for the referendum to have real value Bill. I should say that he might need some advice from and merit in the development of our constitution, his civil servants because I have never had a clear people need to feel confident that it has been conducted answer to this question. The form requires the person in such a manner, and the rules of the legislation have who wants to use a postal vote to fill in the boxes set been applied in such a way, that they can relax not out in the form. After the individual has filled in their only from a partisan point of view but from a citizen’s date of birth in one place, a box is provided for the point of view. I urge the Leader of the House, who is a voter’s signature. Next to that box, it says: reasonable man, to look at these issues as someone “(voter’s signature) IMPORTANT—Keep signature within who just wants a proper result for the referendum. border”. There is a strong case for all the parties represented That has always troubled me because many people in this House to get together to discuss these nuts-and-bolts who vote by post are actually old and infirm, and I issues. I remember with some pain Scotland’s 1979 have never been quite sure what happens if their referendum, which is an experience that I would not signature goes outside the box. wish to repeat. Earlier I spoke to the noble Lord, Lord In a sense this is not a minor point because I McCluskey—who, sadly, is not in his place at the wonder whether that means that the vote may not be moment—who was talking about some of the pressures counted, which is what happens if you make other that he experienced as a Minister in the Government mistakes or put wrong entries on the form, or whether at that time when looking at how the referendum it simply means that the signature may not be able to should be run. There are no two ways about it: there be read by electronic means. I have always assumed will be huge divisions in every party. That means that that the reason for keeping the signature within the the parties must be confident in the structures that exist. box is so that it can be read electronically. That might not be right, so if it is not, I am not sure why it is so 9pm important for the signature to be kept within the border. One of the big problems we will face is that the I emphasise the point because I am thinking of the people who are best equipped to run the organisational comments made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Low. part of the referendum—the part that is not run by the I know that you can get a dispensation for this and you returning officers—are party apparatchiks. Thank God, 1385 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1386 it is 30 years since I was a party apparatchik, but the together a 1,000-piece jigsaw puzzle, and I have now noble Lord, Lord Rennard, is a party apparatchik par got 15 pieces on the board to help me work out what it excellence, as is my noble friend Lady McDonagh. We is. I am not unattracted by creating a part of the all know that there are mechanisms that get people to complex of our social life which is not dominated by vote, that inspire them and that ensure that the true governmental or quasi-governmental institutions and process of democracy takes place. To allow that to where a sense of community is fostered. One of the happen, we need the structures in place. things I suggest to the Leader of the House is that we In opposing the question that Schedule 2 stand part should give real consideration to looking at nodal and of the Bill, I am asking the Leader of the House to communication points, where people cluster in convene a gathering of the major parties that will form communities, and see if we can put polling stations in part of the process. The worse thing that could happen those centres. People clearly now gravitate towards is for us all to get up on 6 May or whenever it may urban shopping centres and out-of-town shopping be—we are beginning to learn that it may be somewhere centres; perhaps we should at least experiment with around 10 May before we find out the result in putting polling stations closer to where people go in Scotland—and feel unhappy and uncomfortable about their day-by-day life. The local post office is the obvious the nature of the processes. place, for instance, to have a polling station in a village At an early stage of the Bill my noble friend Lord that has for many years not had a school-house. This Boateng made a powerful speech about how this observation tends to point me in the direction of Parliament, the mother of Parliaments, is looked to by supporting the sentiment expressed on this point by Parliaments around the world for its procedures and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. its respect for the processes of democracy that transcend I wonder if I could also just delay the House for a all that is party political. I urge the Leader of the brief moment to pick up a point made by my noble House to reflect on what my noble friend said on that friend Lord Soley: why the application for a postal occasion. At the other end of the world, in Egypt, vote requires the date of birth at all. Can the Leader of there are people crying out for the kind of democracy the House explain this? We now operate in a society that we take for granted. Here we have an opportunity, where it is increasingly regarded as inappropriate to at the fag end of a Bill that has been difficult for both ask people their dates of birth. Indeed, when you sides of the House, to say that our democracy is bigger interview somebody you are no longer allowed to ask than the partisan divides. their date of birth; you have to deduce it from their I ask the Leader of the House to consider these education and their appearance. It seems quite issues and to convene a non-partisan gathering of all extraordinary that this is a requirement of the postal the parties to see if there is a way forward. voting form. There must be a suspicion that, perhaps if one misrepresents one’s age—one perhaps becomes accustomed to taking a couple of years off in polite Lord Myners: My Lords, I have sympathy with conversation—you might complete the form incorrectly some of the sentiments expressed by my noble friend and in so doing prejudice your vote and conceivably Lord Campbell-Savours about where electoral stations the outcome of the whole election. I ask the Leader of should be located. There is clearly sense in using the House if he can tell us why it is necessary that school-houses for this purpose, not least because, in people should still be embarrassed by having to disclose the past, each village and town would have its own their date of birth. school. I speak with the experience of coming from a rural constituency in Cornwall, where the schools are getting bigger; local village schools are being closed Lord Tyler: I will respond briefly to the noble and our children have to travel longer distances to Baroness, Lady Liddell, because she has a good point school. This probably makes sense because we are able about the way in which the whole of these arrangements to give them a better education and ensure that the should be looked at on a non-partisan basis. However, schools are better resourced with technology. I am frankly mystified as to why this debate is taking However, it means that people in rural communities place at 9 pm in your Lordships’ House. That does not who tend to use schools as voting centres will now seem to be the appropriate place. The discussion that have to travel a greater distance to the school. This has she is seeking would be much more appropriately done always been a problem in rural constituencies. My within a different context. I cannot understand from mother never voted until quite late in the day. At about any of the contributions— nine o’clock in the evening people would knock on the door and say that she had not voted, and the Conservatives and Liberals would offer cars to take her to the voting Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: What context is more station. She always went with the Conservatives because appropriate than your Lordships’House? This is supposed they tended to have rather big cars and she quite liked to be the place where we scrutinise and give our—bearing that. She always voted Labour but she felt that it was a in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Myners, has just part of the joy of the constitutional process to go in said—greying hairs and our experience to how legislation the kind of large car in which, no doubt, the Leader of should be conducted. the House is accustomed to travelling, both in his ministerial office and in his private life. Lord Tyler: This is precisely what the noble Baroness A school is not the obvious place to hold an election was obviously trying to obviate just now. There has and there is an opportunity here which resonates with not been a single amendment making any changes to the big society. Like many people, I have been wrestling Schedule 2, precisely because Schedule 2 as it stands is to understand the big society. It is like trying to put a distillation of the experience that we have all had. 1387 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1388

She may be quite right that we need to look at some of I then spoke to the presiding officer. It might not have these issues. However, not a single amendment has been as bad as saying that people had been hindered been suggested by noble Lords opposite on this. That going to vote, but it was not far from it. Presiding suggests that this is the present situation, taking account officers are good people—they have the best of of the new circumstances of this event. I frankly find it intentions—but they are quite unsure. This went on quite extraordinary, in the light of the undertaking for several hours and if he had remonstrated there given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of could have been an unpleasant scene. Thoroton, yesterday that we were going to make rapid I am looking for guidance from the noble Lord the and sensible progress, that the last 19—before I spoke, Leader of the House, if he can give it, as to what 18—minutes seems to have been an attempt just to geographical area a presiding officer has control over elongate the evening’s proceedings. That is very outside the polling station. Is it entirely a matter for unfortunate. the police? How should it be handled? I find that contention at polling stations is getting more intense. Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I normally like to say that Sometimes, unfortunately, it is between the political it gives me great pleasure to follow a noble Lord, but I parties, especially in certain hard fought areas. Who am afraid I cannot in these circumstances. It always exactly, or what procedure, is written in the Bill that seems to happen in these deliberations of ours. There would cover the ceasing of such behaviour, and if so is not much toing and froing but there is certainly what would be the proper channels to put a stop to it? plenty of toing on our side to try and subject this Bill to scrutiny; and time after time the noble Lord, Lord Lord Maxton: My Lords, it was not my intention to Tyler, injects a note of acrimony into the proceedings. speak. Members opposite will know I have not spoken It really is quite unfortunate that should happen, that often during these long debates. However, the because we are having a reasonable approach here, noble Lord, Lord Tyler, rather than trying to calm fully in line with the commitments. things down, actually provokes people into speaking and that is the case in this instance. I just say to my I am particularly interested in paragraphs 13 and noble friend Lord Myners that the noble Lord, Lord 14 of Schedule 2 on the provision of polling stations. Strathclyde, may travel in a big limousine, but I travelled Paragraph 14 says: on a No. 3 bus with the noble and learned Lord, Lord “The counting officer must appoint and pay— Wallace of Tankerness, this morning. He does not (a) a presiding officer to attend at each polling station”. travel in a big limo. I find these people very good, on top of their job and At the start of this debate, my noble friend Lord they know what they are doing, but occasionally Campbell-Savours made a point about the position something happens which is not clear. I am seeking and number of polling stations, not just in rural clarification from the noble Lord the Leader of the areas—which my noble friend Lord Myners raised—but House, if he is able to give that clarification; if not, also in urban areas. I remember particularly at one perhaps he could point me in the direction where I can point during my career as a Member of Parliament in get it. Glasgow Cathcart, the local government boundaries I am trying to find out the power of presiding were redrawn. One of them went down the middle of officers and the extent of their power. Is it confined Mount Florida, so one side of the road was one local entirely within the polling station, or does it extend government seat, and on the other side was the other. outside? The example I am going to give is relevant to On one side of the road in that new local government polling stations and I will explain briefly the point on seat, there were two multi-storey blocks of flats. On which I seek clarification. In a local election in 2007 in the other side was the polling station for the road, in my former constituency, there was a bit of local rivalry— the school where those people had gone to vote for all acrimony, even. An independent candidate was standing. the time that they had been in those flats. Now they Voting was by the PR system, which guaranteed chaos were being told to go and vote half a mile or a mile anyway, and there was further chaos because in an away. area about 50 feet from the polling station entrance the independent candidate had arrayed about six people 9.15 pm in a sort of semi-circle. They were stopping people at Many of the people who lived in those flats were that distance from the polling station and inquiring as elderly. I accept that I am of the age where the bulk to how they were going to vote and putting pressure of my major campaigning, certainly as a Member of on them. Parliament, was done before that big introduction of Folk who are going to the polling station do not postal voting for the elderly. In my day, in order to get like being stopped and questioned. It is bad enough a postal vote you had to have a tame doctor who trying to shove a leaflet into their hands—we have all would go along and sign a form. I accept that I am tried that, I think—when you have spent six weeks therefore of the elderly. Indeed, I will get a free TV pushing the candidate’s name through the letterboxes licence on 5 May, the date of the elections and of the everyday. People were being approached and they did referendum, when I will reach the great age of 75. not like it. Intimidation is the wrong word to describe However, the fact is that, while people can now of what was happening, but nevertheless there was pressure. course use postal voting, many elderly people want to I spoke to the police on the door. Come election time, use their vote personally. They want to go out and, if people have such respect for our democratic process they are fit and able, go to the polling station and cast here in Britain that they are very reluctant to get their vote. My noble friend is quite right to say that the involved in anything that they have not had experience turnout is affected in some cases by where the polling of before, or they do not have written guidance on. station is situated. 1389 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1390

I finish by making the point, yet again, that we understand these systems, I am simply making the would not need polling stations at all as such, and that straightforward point that the change in the electoral people would be able to vote anywhere, if we had system to the alternative vote system is not high on electronic voting by using ID cards. Indeed, although people’s radar, as we all know from our own experience. the Government got rid of ID cards because they said I would be very surprised indeed if no more than one that those were so expensive, if we look at the uses that elector then left the cubicle where they were about to could be made of an ID card we would actually save vote and asked the clerk who distributed the ballot money in the long run by having them for everybody. papers what they were being asked to vote on. That is perfectly plausible and indeed an almost inevitable Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am a bit consequence of what is happening. surprised by the comments from the noble Lord, Lord I asked the question—I do not know the answer— Tyler. I have a list here that I got from the Printed whether it is within the law for the clerk to give advice Paper Office. Even by my calculations, we have actually to the would-be voter about what the alternative vote got through a majority of the groups for today. system is. I assume it probably cannot be because I understand that we will finish this Committee stage presumably I could be a clerk if I applied to be one tomorrow and I cannot see any problem with that and I know what I would tell them about the alternative whatever. Secondly, on the question of schools, although vote system. So presumably it would be completely I heard the comments from my noble friend Lord out of order for clerks to give advice in that way. If Myners, we should be looking to get out of using that is the case and a confused elector goes to clerk on schools as polling stations completely, if we possibly desk and says, “I am puzzled about this second ballot can. That would avoid children losing a day in school. paper, I understand the first one”, at the very least I would suggest that in the appointment of clerks and Lord Grocott: My Lords, there is one problem with counting officers on page 33 a script should be offered this schedule, which I want to refer to briefly. I am sure to them out of courtesy. They would need to know that it will make us wonder, in the light of us looking what to say to someone who came to them with that at it in some detail, whether there perhaps should have question. been one or two amendments, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, I think wrongly, that there had been no I doubt whether the Leader of the House when he discussions on this schedule at all. sums up will have given any thought to this as it is only The real problem with this schedule is that we can a small part of the Bill but it illustrates the point that sense in it that the parliamentary draftsmen—whom I you simply cannot lift the rules that apply to every do not blame, as it is a very difficult job—think that it other kind of election and apply them to this most is about the procedure relating to any election. The fundamentally important election of changing the whole point is that this is not any election. It is way we vote and thereby changing our constitution. fundamentally different, so far as the voter going into So please can we be told whether there is any law the polling booth is concerned, from all the elections relating to what clerks can do faced with this question? that he or she is familiar with, where they know that If there is not, should there be or, at the very least, there will be names there and have, obviously, put their should there be guidance as to what should happen in cross by the favoured candidate. However, this is about the polling station when this kind of eventuality arises? asking a question and it will not do, for a number of reasons, simply to lift huge chunks that are clearly from existing legislation—I do not blame the draftsmen, as I have said—about the conduct of elections, thinking, Lord Campbell-Savours: As my noble friend was “Well, we can just lift this and stick it in and this will speaking, something dawned on me which has not be okay for a referendum to change the constitution”. been referred to in any of our previous debates, and I cannot see it marked under Schedule 2 in the list of I shall give one example. I do not know the answer to referendum rules under Part 1. it but it is quite significant. A relatively small part of this schedule has the totally innocuous information What happens in the circumstances where in the about the, referendum campaign the “no” vote and the “yes” “appointment of presiding officers and clerks”. vote decide to put huge hoardings up outside polling We all know the job of a clerk in a polling station, but booths, saying vote “yes” or vote “no” or whatever? It I submit to the Committee that in a referendum on might well be that some rather keen, over-eager young changing the voting system, that clerk is likely to be turks who think that they can push their case might presented with difficulties that clerks in polling stations erect rather aggressive advertising material outside simply do not face. The elector will go in, thinking that polling stations in the referendum to push their case. he or she is voting principally for a local government One would have thought that under Schedule 2 there candidate. Certainly, in the areas that I am familiar would be some restriction on the kind of material that with, it is on who should be their local councillor. could be used in the vicinity of a polling booth. They will then be presented with a second ballot paper On advice from the clerks, I wonder if the Minister which will ask the question: might care to comment on what the position is and, in “At present, the UK uses the ‘first past the post’ system to the event that it is not covered, perhaps he could say so elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the ‘alternative and perhaps on Report we could return to that matter. vote’ system be used instead?”. There are circumstances in which precisely that could I put it to the Committee that many people will be happen. There are some very strange people out there going into a polling station for the first time. I am not who do very strange things and they may well turn up patronising people or saying the electorate do not during the referendum campaign. 1391 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1392

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I am completely with the election will have no authority to ask questions, mystified because last week the noble Lord, Lord or to look at the ballot papers or anything to do with Tyler, admonished us for the number of amendments the referendum, and vice versa. Could that be confirmed? that we tabled. This week he chides us because we have People will come in with red, blue, yellow and perhaps not tabled any amendments. It seems rather strange. tartan—or whatever the SNP decides to use this time— I want to raise one or two points on Schedule 2. rosettes, as well as ones saying “Yes to AV” and “No to I had better raise this point rather than have a long AV”.Presumably polling agents will have responsibility, discussion on an amendment. I strongly agree with powers and authority to deal with that and to ask what my noble friend Lady Liddell said. I think it questions, as I have done countless times as a polling would be useful, and I hope the Minister will consider agent. I am not as old as my noble friend Lord this, to get together a group of MPs and Peers from all Maxton, but I have been a polling agent on several parties to look at some of these schedules in more occasions. You have some rights to go in and check detail to identify if there are any problems that might things, such as the number of voters and so on. How is arise and make some suggestions to the Government. this dealt with? That seems a very good idea. There is one theme running through the whole Lord Maxton: My noble friend raises a very interesting series of schedules as far as I am concerned: full point. However, in a sense the problem is even greater account has not been taken of the problems arising than he perhaps realises. I cannot see that most of the from the combination of polls. We can deal with this people who will be campaigning for the yes vote or the under later schedules. However, there are specific points no vote will not be political activists anyway. that I want to raise in relation to Schedule 2. I agree There are not large numbers of us around, so it may with what my noble friends have said about minimising very well be that, at the school, some people will be the use of schools and trying to find community asked to take on a dual role, both as an agent for a centres and other public buildings—or, indeed, private party and an agent for one of the campaigns. The buildings if we can find them—that can be used so problem with that, of course, is that at one school the that we do not disrupt the education of children. Conservative agent may be against AV and at another school the Conservative agent may be acting as agent I find paragraph 9(3) of the schedule strange. It for the yes vote. It is all going to get very complicated. refers to “schools within this paragraph” but goes on to exclude private schools. Why are private schools not 9.30 pm going to be used? Why does it apply only to local authority schools? Some noble Lords opposite might Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend has say, “Local authority schools are paid for with public made the point. What I was trying to say and I have money”, but private schools also, because of their been trying to say it in a number of contributions charitable status, get substantial support from public earlier, is that these polls will be far more complicated funds. They all have charitable status. I see the looks than we are led to believe by the Government and will on the faces of some lovely ladies opposite. I do not cause lots of problems. I have no wish to exacerbate know if I am allowed to say that. Perhaps it is sexist the problems; that is why I strongly support the suggestion and I will be thrown out of Sky Sports for saying it. of my noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke than an However, if you think that this is envy on my part, or all-party group should be set up to look at these some kind of horrible class snobbery, have a wee look schedules and identify any problems that might arise. at my curriculum vitae and you will find something of That, surely, is us on this side being a wee bit helpful. interest about which you can come back to me. My second point concerns paragraph 14(1). I certainly Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, Schedule 2 is agree with what is suggested by, important. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is right that it reflects experience from other elections. Looking at “the officer may not employ a person who has been employed by the 15th Marshalled List, Amendments 112A to 122A or on behalf of a permitted participant in or about the referendum”. are specific amendments to Schedule 2, so I am not People who have been active—there will be a lot of sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was right them—in the “Yes to AV” and “No to AV” campaigns when he said that there were no amendments to should not be appointed as counting officers and Schedule 2. I am interested in a number of specific should not be at polling stations. Could the Minister issues that relate to the interaction between the referendum tell us how the counting officer will know whether and other polls. First, in paragraph 13 (3), it is said people have been involved in such campaigns? Will that in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, there be a form for them to fill in? Will there be an “the polling station allotted to electors from any parliamentary oath to take? Will they have to sign a document saying polling district wholly or partly within a particular voting area that they have not been involved? It would be useful to must … be in the parliamentary polling place for that district know that. unless the parliamentary polling place is outside the voting area”. The last point that I want to raise—there are many Why is the parliamentary polling area being chosen more that I could raise but I do not want to take up for a referendum and for the other votes when Parliament too much time—concerns agents. We heard earlier is not the district for the count, nor the place for which about agents from the two campaigns. In Scotland, the people are voting? I am surprised that that has been local election areas, Wales and Northern Ireland, there chosen. will also be election agents for the parties. There will Secondly, paragraph 22—this is for the referendum— party agents and agents for the “Yes to AV” and “No places upon the presiding officer the, to AV” campaigns. Presumably the party agents dealing “duty to keep order at the officer’s polling station”. 1393 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1394

That makes the presiding officer the person responsible. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Was the noble Lord Is it envisaged that the same presiding officer will be happy that although there was a majority in favour of appointed for the local elections and the parliamentary a Parliament for Scotland, it did not meet the threshold elections? I assume that it is. If not, who is in charge of required? Is that why he was happy about it? the polling station? Issues might arise in relation to the conduct of a polling station of the sort, for example, Lord Strathclyde: That is an interesting point. I should that arose at the end of the general election as to when be more specific. What was so good about it was that it to close the doors, or what to do about the queues. brought in the vote of confidence and the end of that There needs to be some degree of certainty as to who Labour Government. The noble Lord will remember is in charge. I assume that that will be achieved by the that well. same person being appointed as the polling officer. The noble Lord, Lord Myners— Thirdly, the schedule envisages a polling agent being appointed and a referendum agent being appointed. Lord Crickhowell: Surely it is not right to reply to The purpose, as I understand it, of a referendum agent the noble Lord, Lord Myners, who has broken the and a polling agent being appointed is that those two conventions of the House by not staying for the wind-up. “agents”are responsible for seeking to prevent personation in the polling station. Is it envisaged that this would be Lord Strathclyde: I thank my noble friend Lord two people, or is it envisaged that it would be one Crickhowell for bringing that to the Committee’s attention. person for the same polling station? Do the same rules He obviously felt strongly enough about it to raise it. apply both in relation to electoral law on referendum The noble Lord has no doubt slipped away in his voting and the polling voting? Can there be a conflict? stretch limousine waiting outside your Lordships’ House. Again, we would be looking for the same person to be I can confirm to the Committee, if there was any appointed to deal with both. doubt, that the Leader of the House of Lords no The thing that I cannot find in the rules, though I longer has a limousine, at a substantial saving to the am sure that it is here somewhere, is what prohibitions Exchequer—a saving which the noble Lord, Lord are there on material relating to the referendum within Myners, when he was a Minister at the Treasury, said the polling station? For example, will it be permissible would be quite impossible. to have within the polling station the “neutral The noble Lord, Lord Soley, asked whether the documentation” provided by the Electoral Commission vote of an elector who signed outside the box in a describing the two sorts of system, or will that be postal voting statement or other statement would be prohibited? This relates to the question legitimately considered. Counting officers should have a process in raised by my noble friend Lord Grocott regarding the place to determine such cases. Their system should extent to which help on the issues will be provided to be able to pick up signatures which are valid but individual voters. It is obvious that partisan material stay slightly outside the box. The noble Lord, Lord should not be provided but what, if any, material will Campbell-Savours, asked whether the public can make be allowed in the polling station which is genuinely representations on polling station locations. They can intended to assist voters? If the answer is nil, I would do so. accept that and understand it, but equally I would not regard it as objectionable if neutral material prepared Lord Soley: The Minister slid over that rather quickly. by a neutral body were allowed. It would be useful for This is an important point and it is what scrutiny is the Committee to be given answers to those questions. for. He seems to be saying that in certain circumstances a signature outside the box would invalidate the vote. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am glad that the If that is the case, frankly it ought to be stated on the noble and learned Lord agreed with my noble friend form that if a person strays outside the box, the vote is Lord Tyler and said that he was right, as he is in so invalidated. I know that this applies in other situations many things. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, asked but it is an important point. If people, particularly the whether I was impressed with the depth of her passion infirm, stray outside the box and it is within the remit on this subject. I confirm that I am. I understand of the returning officer to make a judgment on that, if exactly what she was saying. I say to those who echoed he decides against the person, that person’s vote is her remark about cross-party talks that I am sure that invalidated. if the Labour Party were to write in and ask for those cross-party talks, that would be accepted, if they have Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I said that I would not already taken place. The noble Baroness is right write on some of the more technical points but, as far that this matter should be conducted in a non-partisan as I understand it, some discretion must be left to the manner. local officer to decide whether the signature is valid. The debate naturally strayed far and wide across I am very happy to follow that up in a letter. the gamut of electoral law and I will follow up some of the more detailed points in writing. The noble Baroness, Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I have been a Lady Liddell, said that she was frantic, unhappy or returning officer on two occasions. The returning officer depressed—I cannot remember which word she used— has the authority to decide whether the paper is in about the 1979 referendum. My memory of it is that it order. The precise rules are rather particular and they went rather well. It had a good result and was excellent are certainly not all on the ballot paper. If they were, in many respects. Therefore, I do not share the noble the ballot paper would not have much else on it. As a Baroness’s unhappiness, which perhaps shows the width returning officer, I have seen a quite remarkable number of the gulf between us on these great issues. of peculiar ballot papers, with all kinds of communications 1395 Parliamentary Voting System[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 1396 on them. This is a matter for the returning officer and system works. In this draft piece from the Electoral I am sure that the rules are exactly the same as regards Commission there are four pages of notes with bar the referendum. The returning officer, who is independent, charts on how the alternative vote system works. If he would decide these matters, but all the rules are not really thinks by 4 May, or whenever it is, we will be expressed. When you become a returning officer, you able to go down any street in Britain and people will must learn all these rules, and it is a bit of an ordeal to instantly be able to say how the alternative vote system get them all into your head. works, he really does inhabit a different world from the rest of us. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend. The fundamental point 9.45 pm is that there is nothing really different about these Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am sorry to say that rules and regulations. They are modelled on existing there may be a generational issue here. My children, provisions which govern the conduct of elections. who are at school, are taught different electoral systems. That is why I refer the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- This has been done for the past 25 years. I do not think Savours, to the Representation of the People Act 1983. that it is very complicated. I was rather impressed by If he looks up Section 18B to 18D, I think that he will the Electoral Commission’s work. The noble Lord find the answer to his question. Likewise, the noble asserts that nobody will be interested. I say that they Lord, Lord Grocott, who asked about poll clerks will be. At least they are being given a choice, which is advising people on the subject matter of the referendum. important. To be fair, the Labour Party believed a year We would not expect clerks to advise on that but there ago that this was important enough to put in its will be guidance in the polling station on how to manifesto. It was the only party to do so. complete the voting paper and, as we have already The underlying legislation for this is of course debated several times, the Electoral Commission and Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983, the campaigns will be educating the public. with which many noble Lords will be familiar. I hope There is another point. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that noble Lords opposite will find that this is a useful has got it into his head that there is something very subject that they may wish to debate on one of their strange and very new being done here. If you live in Thursdays, or in a Question for Short Debate, because Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or London, you there are important issues that they will want to discuss. have already voted in referendums and PR elections. Under this schedule, appropriate modifications have I think we had more local referendums in the 13 years been made to reflect the features and language specific of Labour Government than this nation ever had. to referendums. For example, references to “returning I think people are quite used to the idea of going into officers” have been substituted by “counting officers”, a polling booth and being asked a question other than and references to “election agents” have been replaced who they wish to vote for: on whether they want local with “referendum agents”. mayors, for instance, or whether they want regional Two aspects of the rules merit special mention. government—that was a great question the Labour They govern the count and recount procedures, and a Party asked. I also think that he has underestimated power enabling the chief counting officer to modify the degree of interest that will be generated, and is some forms contained in the Bill. Counting officers being generated, by the campaigns in the run-up to the will be responsible for the conduct of counts in their referendum. respective areas, which will be conducted on a regional basis. Like local returning officers in the European Lord Maxton: I accept the point the Minister is parliamentary elections, referendum agents will be making. I may be wrong here but I do not remember a permitted to attend the count, much like election referendum held on the same day as other elections. agents. Rule 42(2) specifies that a referendum agent This is what is going to confuse many electors, rather and certain designated counting agents may require a than the fact that they are being asked to vote yea or counting officer to recount votes for that area. As with nay in a referendum. UK and European parliamentary elections, a counting officer will have the discretion to refuse any such Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the last Labour request if he deems it to be unreasonable. Rule 43 Government famously had a referendum in London gives power to both regional counting officers and the on the London mayor on the same day as the London chief counting officer to issue a direction for a recount local elections. of the votes only in one specified circumstance: where I am impressed— the officer requesting the recount has reason to doubt the accuracy of the count under rule 43(4). Lord Grocott: The Leader of the House quotes The whole schedule takes account of the views of previous referenda, but I think he is making a fundamental the Electoral Commission and the electoral administrators, mistake in terms of public awareness of what is happening. with whom we have worked particularly closely in In the European referendum in 1975, there was not the developing this part of the legislation, given that it sets slightest doubt in anyone’s mind about what was at out the rules on how the poll will be run on the stake. It was a choice about whether we stayed in or we ground. I go back to the suggestion made by the noble did not. Neither was there any serious doubt about Baroness, Lady Liddell. It may well be a good idea for what was at stake in the referenda on Scottish and party officials to get together to discuss this, and I Welsh devolution. I am simply reflecting, I am sure, hope that the offer will be taken up. what is the truth—that large numbers of people will not know any detail about how the alternative vote Schedule 2, as amended, agreed. 1397 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 1398

Schedule 3 : Absent voting in the referendum Schedule4:Application to the referendum of existing provisions Amendments 122B and 122C Moved by Lord Strathclyde Amendment 122D 122B: Schedule 3, page 76, leave out line 12 Moved by Lord Strathclyde 122C: Schedule 3, page 85, leave out line 38 122D: Schedule 4, page 114, line 24, after “lists” insert “and provide any subsequent revised lists or revisions to the lists” Amendments 122B and 122C agreed. Debate on whether Schedule3,asamended, should be agreed. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, we are now moving so fast. The Committee will be relieved to know that this Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I have a brief question for is a minor and technical amendment to the modification the Leader of the House. I am sorry that he did not made in Schedule 4 of the Bill to Regulation 61 of the respond to the point that I made in an earlier debate. Representation of the People (England and Wales) I know that perhaps he did not have the information Regulations 2001 as it applies for the purposes of a to hand, but I thought that he might be able to offer referendum. It is necessary to ensure that the counting me some guidance. My question is about paragraph 4(1), officer is provided with any revisions which are made which states: to any of the absent voter lists used for the referendum, “Where a person applies to the registration officer to vote by and it provides further clarity to the absent voting post in the referendum, the registration officer must grant the provisions in the Bill. I beg to move. application if … the officer is satisfied that the applicant is or will be registered in a relevant register”. I am not sure what that means. How would the registration Amendment 122D agreed. officer forecast or be aware that the person concerned is registered in a relevant register?

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, perhaps I could follow House resumed. that up in a letter to the noble Lord. Schedule 3, as amended, agreed. House adjourned at 9.51 pm. GC 313 Arrangement of Business[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 314

In all these cases, the person doing the exploiting Grand Committee exercises some form of power over the child or young person by means of their age, gender, intellect or other Tuesday, 1 February 2011. factors. Violence, coercion and intimidation are common and can involve the child or young person being plied with gifts, alcohol and drugs, which often form part of Arrangement of Business the grooming process. This all helps to explain why it Announcement is often very difficult for some children or young people to accept the true nature of their relationship and to take the risk of exposing the perpetrator. 3.30 pm Any child or young person may be at risk of sexual The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess exploitation, regardless of their gender, race or social of Mar): My Lords, it has been agreed that, should background. However, we unfortunately know that any of the Questions for Short Debate not run for factors such as living in care or being runaways or their allocated hour this afternoon, the Committee having mental health problems all increase a young will adjourn during pleasure until the end of the person’s vulnerability to sexual exploitation. In particular, allotted hour. Therefore, each of the Questions for we know that the link with running away or going Short Debate will start at half-past the hour. If there is missing is an extremely strong indicator of risk. I shall a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn return to that point later. for 10 minutes and, if necessary, time will be added for the Question for Short Debate. As we know, child exploitation has devastating consequences for the individual being exploited. It has an extremely damaging effect on a child’s or young Children: Sexual Exploitation person’s self-esteem, mental health and, indeed, lifelong Question ability to form secure relationships, yet, in spite of this, there are no national statistics to map the prevalence of child sexual exploitation. This lack of data works 3.31 pm against the children of our country, as it keeps a vital Asked By The Lord Bishop of Leicester child protection issue somewhat obscured. I want to draw attention to five issues in particular. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps First, children of course have a right to be protected they are taking to ensure the safety of children, from sexual exploitation. This is enshrined in law at especially of children in the care of local authorities, national, European and international levels. In this from being groomed for sexual exploitation. country, local safeguarding children boards are responsible for co-ordinating local responses to child sexual The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords, following exploitation, yet initial research from the University of the recent cases of child sexual exploitation that we Bedfordshire has demonstrated that many local have seen in the media, I am glad to have this opportunity safeguarding children boards still do not consider to raise this important topic today. I very much look child sexual exploitation as a priority and have failed forward to hearing contributions from all those who to identify resources or plans to address this, with less are here. What I have to say arises partly from my own than a quarter of the boards even having a protocol pastoral experience as a parish priest and a bishop and for child sexual exploitation. This leads to a group of partly from my more recent experience as the chair of very vulnerable young people being left without adequate the trustees of the Children’s Society. and timely services and the support that they so desperately As noble Lords will be aware, child sexual exploitation, need. I urge the Minister to look into this issue seriously as defined by the Department for Children, Schools and to let us know what measures he can put in place and Families in 2009, is sexual exploitation of children to rectify this situation. or young people under the age of 18 that involves Secondly, I want to mention the inadequate training putting the child or young person in exploitative situations, for professionals across the front line. Many professionals contexts or relationships in which they receive something, who work with young people remain unfamiliar with whether it is food, accommodation, money or drugs, the risks or indicators of sexual exploitation and show in return for performing and/or having others perform little understanding of the issue. Indeed, they often do on them some form of sexual activity. not know how to support a young person in an Sexual exploitation can occur through the use of exploitative situation who is going through the courts technology without the child’s immediate recognition with a case against their abusers. This situation is of the exploitation, such as being asked to post sexual often exacerbated by the fact that many young people images on the internet or on mobile phones without are not willing to identify themselves as being exploited immediate payment or gain. Recent reports by the or even to recognise that they are at risk of harm. In Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and keeping with this lack of understanding, the behaviour Barnardo’s have indicated the use of the internet in of children and young people affected is often identified child exploitation as a growing issue. The Barnardo’s as disruptive rather than indicative of need and they report, Puppet on a String, which I commend to your are often met with punitive rather than welfare responses. Lordships, has highlighted that a number of primary Research from the Children’s Society has shown that school children have admitted to meeting someone victims aged 16 and 17 are particularly unlikely to whom they previously met only online. receive a safeguarding response. These are the young GC 315 Children: Sexual Exploitation[LORDS] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 316

[THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER] 3.40 pm people who are often seen as a low priority, despite the Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I law stating explicitly that they should be responded to congratulate the right reverend Prelate on securing and safeguarded as children until they are aged 18. this debate on this important topic and at the same The lack of data and awareness of the issue of child time congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, sexual exploitation has led to a significant lack of who is making her debut as opposition spokesman resources for specialist support services for children today. and their families. Like other noble Lords, I have received the briefings Thirdly, I take this opportunity to raise the issue of from the Children’s Society and Barnardo’s on what the inadequacies of current law enforcement and police they rightly describe as a horrendous crime. The reference responses to child sexual exploitation cases. These in the Barnardo’s report to the special challenges remain primarily reactive rather than proactive. The posed by out-of-area residential care strikes a prosecution relies heavily on the young person to particular chord with me, yet I find myself impelled make a complaint and to give evidence in the court to sound a note of caution, lest in our efforts to against their exploiter. The process of grooming to reduce child exploitation we have the unintended which children are subjected and the use of threats consequence of discouraging individuals from working and coercion make it extremely difficult for them to go with children and so impoverish the physical and through the criminal justice process. The sexual intellectual lives of the very children whom we are exploitation of children is, of course, a form of child seeking to protect. abuse and should be seen as a child protection issue. It is extremely important that investigations are carried I am chairing a task force looking into the regulatory out by officers who are trained in child protection and other burdens that impede the growth of small procedures with families showing risk indicators for charities and other groups. We have had a good deal of child sexual exploitation. It is vital that the police evidence that well meaning efforts are discouraging work closely with partner agencies to develop a people from volunteering to work with children. In my co-ordinated response to ensuring that the welfare and three minutes, I cannot develop my argument at length, safety of the child is paramount. What is most ironic is so I shall read four paragraphs of a letter that I that children aged 10 years or over still remain criminally received from a lady in Manchester. She said: liable for the commission of a prostitution offence “About 8 years ago, I decided to get involved in a local such as loitering or soliciting. This is clearly at odds Manchester Drama group … whose members range from seven with the intention to make it clear that sexually exploiting years to 80 years old. A number of us assumed responsibility for teaching the children and preparing them for the annual pantomime children is a form of child abuse. Often it is the fear of and other productions. Naturally we were CRB checked—a process being prosecuted under this legislation that prevents I had no issue with and wholeheartedly support ... However—having children from coming forward to seek help to get out been CRB approved, we were invited to a session of the local of exploitative situations. I urge the Minister to ensure Child Protection Officer. I came away from that meeting with a that it is explicitly clear that any child who has been number of very serious questions as to whether I should in fact sexually exploited is supported through the justice get involved with this sort of group. The talk left me feeling I would potentially be placing myself in situations of real risk ... system, which is meant to protect them, and that their The Child Protection Officer focused the session on ensuring no exploiters are dealt with accordingly. adult put themselves into a vulnerable position i.e. if a child Fourthly, I want to make a point about the importance requests to go to the toilet—in no circumstance should an adult of co-ordination and joint working between local accompany them. If a child (with particular reference to girls) falls and cuts her knee, whilst wearing tights—under no circumstances authorities and police forces to tackle child sexual should any adult remove the girl’s tights and help stem the bleed exploitation across boundaries. Effective cross-department ... No adult, whatever sex, should ever be alone with either one or and multidisciplinary working can make a huge impact more children … I came away from the session questioning the on safeguarding children, especially those in care, who sense in many of the messages conveyed. As a caring, responsible are often failed due to a breakdown in communication adult (who as an adoptive mum … has the highest level of CRB between different agencies or who get lost in the gaps clearance) I did not feel at all comfortable with the prospect of between them. The Government and local authorities not being able to help an injured child”. have a duty, of course, to protect all children, especially I would like to tell the Committee that this was an those who rely on them as corporate parents. isolated example, but we have had many letters along these lines. Of course, child protection is an important Finally, I urge the Government to respond to the issue, but thousands of our fellow citizens find it needs of these vulnerable children. I call on the Minister enjoyable and rewarding to work with children. We to take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of have to avoid a situation in which, if someone says children, especially those in the care of local authorities, that they enjoy working with children, they are from being groomed for sexual exploitation. In particular, immediately treated with grave suspicion. I hope that the Minister will pay close attention to the link between running away and sexual exploitation. I fear that, despite great efforts in recent years to develop 3.43 pm statutory guidance and an action plan on runaways, this issue has fallen down the list of political priorities Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I am very at the DfE. I hope that the Minister will reassure us pleased that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of that this is not the case and that action is being taken Leicester has brought this topic of sexual exploitation to prevent children from being exposed to such horrific to our notice. His interest in child welfare is well abuse, which is happening in far too many of our known. I want to focus on trafficking, an issue that towns and cities today. many noble Lords have raised recently in your Lordships’ GC 317 Children: Sexual Exploitation[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 318

House. It is a horrific practice and one that we should authorities do not take proactive steps to identify do all in our power to tackle. Local authorities and cases, they think that there is no problem to address safeguarding are important and essential. and, if they do not think that there is a problem, they We have some figures on trafficking and sexual do not identify the resources and put them in place to exploitation of children, but they are likely to be address it. severe underestimates. Nevertheless, some things are This debate follows the recent notorious Derby case clear. Childline reports that 8 per cent of all calls are where many young girls were abused, two of whom about sexual abuse—an increase of 42 per cent in two were in public care. In order to find out what lessons years. The reason for the increase may be that children had been learnt, I looked at the serious case review. are becoming more confident in speaking out about These reviews have been patchy in quality in the past, such abuse. I hope that they are and that they feel but since Ofsted has been looking at them they have supported to do so. The Barnardo’s report, Puppet on improved and are well worth looking at. I understand a String, has been referred to already. I want to underline that the Munro review, published this morning, suggests the fact that children who are particularly vulnerable that Ofsted inspection should now cease, so I hope that are those in care, those excluded from mainstream the raised quality and value of these reviews continues. education and those using drugs or alcohol. Such I am concerned about how safeguarding will be enshrined children need a great deal of co-ordinated support, as in the new slimmed-down Ofsted inspections of schools. the right reverend Prelate said. Can the Minister tell us something about that? I shall now focus on trafficking. It is estimated that I turn to the Derby case. The serious case review at any time more than 140,000 persons are victims of reveals that concerns about the welfare of the two trafficking; 84 per cent of them are trafficked for young women in care, who were among those abused, sexual exploitation and most are women and girls. The emerged at a very early stage—one from birth and the UN Office on Drugs and Crime shows that trafficking other from primary school age. From 2008, they were in persons is one of the most lucrative illicit businesses engaged in disturbed and risky behaviour, including in Europe, generating ¤2.5 billion a year. Some of criminal activity, absconding and drug and alcohol these children go into care but are recycled into misuse. Practitioners in health and education and in exploitation. Some are not discovered. That is another children’s social care all failed to recognise the significance example of where local authority protection services of these behaviours in terms of abuse and they failed should intervene. to intervene effectively. ECPAT, the umbrella organisation fighting trafficking, Often when I am faced with speaking about issues recommends that central government should provide such as this, I turn to the coal face. The coal face in funding to local authorities to ensure that child victims this case is my friend Carol Runciman, who is the lead of trafficking are provided with safe accommodation, member on children’s services in York. I asked her such as foster care, and that social workers should be what she thought about these issues. She said: trained to identify and support children who may have “It doesn’t take a lot more money—what it takes is training been trafficked. It is vital to address gaps in provision, and understanding of how things happen and how both young such as the lack of co-ordination and the lack of people and carers and parents can be alerted to the dangers … someone who can understand the wishes and feelings getting warnings out via social networking sites and sites, like of children. school networks, that the young people use. Having a clearly identified point of contact is important—a designated teacher or What can we in the UK do? First, I hope that teaching assistant in school who is trained to know what to do … the UK Government will take note of the having information in drop in centres for young people—youth Barnardo’s report, Puppet on a String, and the ECPAT clubs, young people’s drop in centres, even health centres—that recommendations. It is difficult to see how cuts to all helps”. local services can engender more funding to do this We should listen to the coal face. and to focus on child trafficking and sexual abuse, but I hope that the Minister will reassure us. I hope that the Government will eventually sign the European 3.49 pm directive on human trafficking. I know that progress has been made but, if the Government signed up to Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I am most this directive, that would be an important symbol of grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of our commitment as a country to fighting this modern-day Leicester for raising this topic today. Coming from the slavery. I look forward to the Minister’s response. north, as I do, I know that there is great concern about children being sexually exploited. A short time ago, a group of predators, all of whom seemed to be of 3.46 pm Asian origin, were sent to prison. They came from Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, child sexual exploitation West Yorkshire, Derby and Blackburn. They had groomed has devastating consequences, despite the fact that young people with drugs and alcohol and then threatened children’s right to be protected from sexual abuse is them so that they obeyed these evil men. The young enshrined in national, European and international people were driven to prostitution. law. We have heard that only 20 per cent of local If the Minister can find out, it would be interesting authorities have access to specialist services, even though to know how many of these children had come from it has clearly been shown that cases are more easily care. Will there be a cross-departmental inquiry on identified when specialist services are available. This grooming vulnerable children for the purpose of sexual was emphasised recently in an article in exploitation? I assume that there was cross-departmental by Carlene Firmin, who pointed out that, if local working when the predators were found guilty and GC 319 Children: Sexual Exploitation[LORDS] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 320

[BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON] and to a different degree. I chose then to make indiscretion sent to prison. That is what is needed, as well as the better part of valour. However, I hope that the cross-boundary co-operation and cross-country climate will have been so changed by recent developments co-ordination. that this inhibition will be lifted. I share the views of West Yorkshire used to abound with industry. People my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, as were brought in with their skills to work in the mills. a consequence of eight years as president of St Andrew’s Now this work has mainly gone to China, which has YouthClub, half a mile from this Palace, whose reputation left many people unemployed years later. Some of is that oxymoron, “the oldest youth club in the world”. them have preyed on children to make money out of There are lots of questions that one could ask, but, sex. I also hear that Asian men may not be satisfied in a debate of short speeches, my noble friend the with forced marriages and so look elsewhere for sex. Minister is liable to be reduced to a St Sebastianic Many children from care seem to have low esteem barrage of questions and one must not be self-indulgent. and become vulnerable, as do young teenage girls, who Mine relates to trafficked girls, an issue that has already rebel and leave home for various reasons. They all been mentioned. I am aware of the Christian organisation become easy prey. Will the Minister give an assurance thus concerned that goes under the name of Chaste—for that the cutting of so many police will not affect child the benefit of the Hansard writer, I spell that title with protection? How much child awareness is taught in “te” rather than “ed”—but how far is the fact that schools to make all children aware of sexual exploitation, prostitution among such girls is a criminal offence at so that when they are at risk they can spot the dangers? the specified age an obstacle to the resolution of such I know that this awareness is taught in schools in traffic? Australia. All professionals working with children and within 3.55 pm the criminal justice system should be trained to understand The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, the previous issues relating to child sexual exploitation. Some of Government appointed Sir William Utting, the former the children are very young. They are at risk of sexually director of the Social Services Inspectorate, to do two transmitted diseases, including HIV. Surely it is time reports into the safeguarding of children in local to stop being complacent and to act now to protect authority care. One of his chief conclusions was that these very vulnerable children. an environment of overall excellence is the best safeguard for children. The Barnardo’s report, Puppet on a String, 3.52 pm which has already been referred to, states: Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, there “We also know that some groups of young people are more are nine working days in your Lordships’ House in the vulnerable to targeting by the perpetrators of sexual exploitation. first 15 days in February. On two-thirds of those nine These include children living in care, particularly residential care”. days, the first Oral Question is in the name of one of I should like to concentrate on children’s homes. the right reverend Prelates on the Bishops’ Bench. I do I hope that the Minister may take the following not know whether it is a convention of your Lordships’ questions to Tim Loughton MP. Will he consider House that the Bench of Bishops always takes the top undertaking a review of children’s homes? Will he of the Order Paper if a right reverend Prelate has a consider approaches from John Diamond, chief executive Question to ask or whether that is an index of the of the Mulberry Bush school, who is leading a group enthusiasm of right reverend Prelates straining like of tier 3 specialist providers in residential care to talk greyhounds in the slips to be the first away. On top of to the Government about how we can ensure that that, on Thursday the right reverend Prelate the Bishop high-quality specialist residential care continues? Does of Chester has the first two-and-a-half-hour debate, he recognise the need to ensure that the current climate which is on the role of marriage and marriage support. does not have the perverse effect of driving out high- This episcopal procession is led today by the right quality provision as commissioners look for the cheapest reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, with his residential care that they can find in the circumstances? Question for Short Debate, which is itself a harbinger In my experience visiting children’s homes, I have of the similar top Oral Question to be posed on heard staff talk about girls in their care being approached 10 February by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop and given gifts by men. They have expressed concern of Ripon and Leeds. We are all in the debt of the right about their limited ability to intervene. I have heard of reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester for having girls being called out at night by an elder girl in the triggered all this activity and for the skill with which home and of staff rewarding in the morning those he has launched it. Having used more than a third of girls who did not respond to that pressure. It is a very my allotted span with this willing obeisance to the difficult environment in which to work. While 90 per Bishops’ Bench, I shall use the final strait to make one cent of children’s homes in Denmark, and 50 per cent observation and to ask one question. in , have degree-level qualified staff, only My observation is that, when these matters were 20 per cent of homes in this country do, yet the brought dramatically to public attention and general children in those residential settings often have far concern by a series of articles in the Times, the thought higher levels of need than they would in Germany or was aired that the police had been inhibited from Denmark. This area needs careful attention and I raising the profile of these matters for fear that they hope that the Minister will review it. would be liable to charges of racism. I can understand To see the difference that excellence in provision that inhibition. I had to ponder a similar dilemma can make, your Lordships need only visit Hackney more than 50 years ago, although in a different context social services, which last year achieved 25 per cent GC 321 Children: Sexual Exploitation[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 322 access to university provision among their care leavers— 4.01 pm the highest proportion in the country. This was a local Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I join others authority that used to have an appalling reputation for in thanking the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of its provision. It has done this by insisting on recruiting Leicester for securing this debate on a subject that is of the very best social workers using the Reclaim Social growing concern. The prevalence of child sexual Work model. Consultant social workers lead small exploitation is growing and the age of exploitation is teams supported by systemic therapists who have eight getting younger. With rapid technological advances, years of training. I look forward to the Minister’s the grooming of children has become more sophisticated, response. as abusers are using the internet and mobile phones to find and groom children. A recent report by the Child 3.58 pm Exploitation and Online Protection Centre found a 16 per cent increase in the number of cases in a year, Lord Faulks: My Lords, although I very much with a quarter of these from online grooming. Children welcome this debate, I come to it from a slightly are unwittingly putting themselves at extreme risk unusual standpoint as a barrister who has spent the through internet usage. past 20 years or so acting in claims against local Despite these shocking statistics, in most local authorities, social services departments and children’s authorities child sexual exploitation apparently is not, homes for failures to protect children from sexual as we have heard, recognised as a mainstream child abuse. I, of course, share the concern of all noble protection issue. Certainly more attention and resources Lords for the victims of sexual abuse. Anyone who has must be focused on child protection on the internet. heard adult survivors of sexual abuse give evidence in Studies suggest that almost 60 per cent of children court can feel nothing but horror for the way in which aged nine to 19 have viewed online pornography and their childhood has been ruined by the breach of trust. the rate of unwitting exposure is increasing. It is clear, Often, they come from very unpromising circumstances therefore, that filtering software to control access to and their lack of faith in adult figures is confounded pornographic material needs to be improved. The by their experiences. Anything that the Government onus seems to be far too heavily left to rest on parents, can do and can continue to do to protect such children teachers and carers. Surely internet service and website from abuse and exploitation is, of course, welcome. providers should share a greater responsibility for I wish to sound a note of caution, however, although keeping our children safe and be made much more this must be seen in the context of my experience as accountable in this regard. someone who has spent many hours sitting round We need to make it a lot more difficult for our tables with social workers who are alleged to have been children to come across inappropriate adult content negligent in failing to protect children from sexual and images of child abuse on the internet. Are the abuse. Social workers have a very hard job. There is no Government engaging with internet service and website lack of guidance; indeed, a preponderance of guidance providers to ensure that steps are taken in this direction? is now available. However, the inquiries that take place I am especially concerned with the increasing ease and the hearings that occur in the studied calm of the with which internet content can be viewed through Royal Courts of Justice are a world away from the television. I believe that the BBC, whose age ratings real fog of social work, with the difficulties of are known and respected by parents, are already helpfully obtaining information and the changes of files and involved with some guidance to broadcasters, but will personnel. the Government’s next communications Act address It is a considerable worry to social workers that this problem statutorily? Given that internet videos they are exposed to litigation and the risk of litigation. are not currently subject to the same rules as television, Previously, the courts had decided that social workers this convergence could threaten to expose even more were not so to be exposed; it was considered that this children to inappropriate content. If legislation is not was a multi-agency task and that it was unfair to single the Government’s intention, what measures are in out social workers for responsibility. However, the place, or at least being explored, to protect children Human Rights Act has altered that and we are now from the result of these technological changes? In in a position where social workers face these short, what are the Government doing to address this? allegations. I hope that, when he replies, the noble Lord will be Of course, the Government will be anxious to make able to reassure your Lordships that child sexual sure that social workers are properly trained and do all exploitation is indeed a priority for the Government that they can to take on board the recent thinking and that he will tell us something about the actions about improving the way in which they do their job. I that they are proposing to take to deal with this know that the Government will be taking note of situation. Professor Munro’s report in particular. However, I ask the Minister to bear in mind the fact that social 4.04 pm workers are dedicated individuals who do an unglamorous and not very well paid job in often difficult circumstances. Lord Sheikh: My Lords, the sexual exploitation of They are pilloried by the press when things go wrong children is one of the worst challenges facing our and, although I am sure that all of them have children’s society. A report last year for the Child Exploitation best interests at heart, we should be careful that, in our and Online Protection Centre revealed a 16 per cent understandable urge to protect children, we do not increase in reported cases of sexual exploitation. confound matters by putting them off doing that job Perpetrators of this heinous crime are using more well. sophisticated channels to lure their victims, often plying GC 323 Children: Sexual Exploitation[LORDS] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 324

[LORD SHEIKH] particularly important that we not only are vigilant them with gifts, drugs and alcohol, specifically targeting but help young people to recognise the dangers and vulnerable children. These children are groomed then equip them better to withstand those dangers. abused, leaving them with deep emotional and Does the Minister recognise that many local authorities psychological trauma. have a tendency to place young children far from their Two of the young girls who were abused by a gang locality? I fear that that often leads to an attitude of in Derby were in the care of Derby City Council. A “out of sight, out of mind”, which exposes these serious case review into these victims’ cases revealed young children to even more danger. Because local that if they had been taken into care earlier they would authorities are sometimes more committed to a policy have been less vulnerable to the exploits of their of ethnic compatibility, rather than of securing a abusers. A 2009 report published by Barnardo’s entitled normal family life for young children, many of these Whose Child Now? revealed that 80 per cent of councils young children are allowed to languish in care for did not have a service dedicated to supporting victims many years. I hope that the Minister will do all that he of sexual exploitation. A greater focus on the training can to reduce the length of time taken in court proceedings of professionals who deal with children is needed to and ensure that drift is eliminated from childcare improve the chances of early identification in cases of practice. These children should be helped to have a sexual abuse. more secure future, because childhood passes all too I turn now to a sensitive issue. The facts speak for quickly. themselves: 50 of the 56 perpetrators who have recently been convicted of these abhorrent crimes are from the 4.10 pm Muslim community. However, any attempt to draw a Baroness Hughes of Stretford: I, too, congratulate parallel between these crimes and one ethnic or religious the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester on group would be not only wrong but particularly securing this debate on this very important topic. It is unwelcome. Child sexual exploitation is not exclusively a privilege to speak after the knowledgeable contributions carried out by one community. The recent focus on of so many colleagues. race in the media could have an adverse effect on the wider ability of the agencies to detect cases of abuse While recent cases have brought this issue to the among all communities and in the country generally. fore, there has in fact been a growing awareness of this problem for some considerable time. In a previous life, Barnardo’s, the children’s charity, has launched a I spent some years as a research fellow investigating report called Puppet on a String, which examines the what was then called organised sexual abuse of children— nature and scale of sexual exploitation. The report paedophile gangs, trafficking and so on. I was a senior states that the incidence of trafficking of children lecturer at Manchester University and spent many around Britain for sexual exploitation is rising, with gruelling hours reading the transcripts of children’s children as young as 10 being groomed by predatory evidence and interviews. Like other Members here, I gangs. The report also reveals that the average age of know what a vile predatory crime this is, targeting the victims has fallen from 15 to 13 in the past five years. most vulnerable children. Will the Government heed the advice of key figures in appointing a Minister with specific responsibility for This is also a challenging issue for professionals— dealing with this issue? Child exploitation is a deeply possibly one of the most challenging—as well as one unwelcome phenomenon in our society. Our duty lies of the most dangerous for children. The crime is with providing victims with all the support that they becoming increasingly sophisticated, as modern require to rebuild their lives. We must also ensure their communications technology makes it easier for safety and prevent them from becoming innocent victims. paedophiles and perpetrators to keep their tracking and contacting of children hidden from parents and carers. 4.08 pm There has been progress over recent years but, as Lord Laming: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the the Children’s Society and Barnardo’s have reported, right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester on the implementation of government guidance, best practice initiating this debate on this important subject. Most and so on is patchy as regards local safeguarding parents want the best for their children but, when children boards and local authorities. The extent to parental responsibility is transferred from parents to which progress has been made is variable. It is clear the state, the state carries a huge responsibility to help that, for an effective local response, we need a child-centred those vulnerable children. I hope that the Minister will approach that is sensitive to listening to children, do all that he can to remind local authorities of the capacity for early intervention and identification, close responsibilities that they carry, because many of these integration and inter-agency working—as was reinforced children have experienced chaotic lives, have been again today by the Munro interim report—the capacity deprived of a normal childhood and have low self-esteem of professionals to share information easily and early, and poor educational attainment. The responsibilities and the dissemination of knowledge and best practice. carried by the state are huge and local authorities need As well as adding to the calls to the Minister asking to be constantly reminded of that. what progress he is going to make, I should also like to Secondly, we need to recognise that predators on express some concerns about decisions that the these young children have developed more sophisticated Government have already made, which I think will ways. Unfortunately and understandably, many of these create new and unnecessary barriers to that progress. young children crave affection and confuse the giving The first relates to the cuts to local authority budgets. of affection with that of sexual favours. Therefore, it is I have to raise this issue, because the worst levels of GC 325 Children: Sexual Exploitation[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Children: Sexual Exploitation GC 326 cuts are being experienced by the local authorities by my noble friends Lord Hodgson and Lord Faulks with the highest children-in-need scores; they are in about proportionality and the need not to undermine exactly those places where most vulnerable children inadvertently the important relationship that we want are going to be. to encourage between adults and children, particularly Secondly, why has the Minister distanced himself in the context of encouraging volunteering. That lies from Every Child Matters, the acclaimed multi-agency behind our proposals for reviewing the vetting and framework that is making it much easier for agencies barring scheme. to work together? Under the Education Bill, schools As was said in the debate, knowing the scale of the will now be absolved from the duty to co-operate with problem is one of the challenges that we face. I therefore other agencies locally. Thirdly, the abandonment of welcome the fact that the Barnardo’s report and the ContactPoint will make it much harder for professionals Times articles have drawn attention to the problem even to know who else is working with them, let alone and brought things out into the open. Research how to contact them. Finally, absorbing CEOP into a commissioned in 2002 found that children were known national crime agency with border control, immigration to suffer sexual exploitation in 111 of the then 146 child and all those things will harm the dissemination of the protection committee areas. Work carried out by best practice that CEOP has been achieving. Barnardo’s in 2005 found 507 cases across London boroughs. A more recent survey by Barnardo’s showed 4.14 pm that in 2008-09 it worked with 1,059 children and young people and that this had risen the following The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for year to 1,098. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, I, too, congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of However, apart from a sense that we all have that Leicester on securing this timely debate. It has been a this is only part of the story, we almost by definition good debate and a good advertisement for speed dating. do not have hard and fast data. I hope therefore that I shall try to crack on. I welcome the noble Baroness, noble Lords will support the announcement in January Lady Hughes of Stretford, to her new role. I look that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection forward to working with her. I know that she is Centre is carrying out a thematic assessment, which, experienced in this area and was herself a Minister for among other things, will look at establishing whether Children and Families in my department. there are any patterns of offending or victimisation, This debate is timely because, as we have discussed, consider the effectiveness of existing processes and today sees the publication of the interim report from make recommendations to reduce risk. CEOP is looking the Munro review and because of the attention that to make its findings on this research public within a there has rightly been on this issue following the series timescale of three to six months. of reports in the Times and the publication of the I know that there has been a lot of media debate recent thoughtful and helpful report by Barnardo’s, around issues to do with ethnicity, a point that a which I have read with care. number of noble Lords have raised. My view on that is In his speech, the right reverend Prelate spoke with very simple: while we should not make generalisations—we authority and experience about a subject that all noble know that child sexual exploitation affects boys as well Lords who have contributed today clearly care about as girls and occurs across the country, involving people deeply. It is hard to think of a greater responsibility or from a range of ethnic backgrounds—we should not duty that we have as a society than to keep our turn a blind eye to wrongdoing for fear of rocking the children safe. We have a particular responsibility to boat. Indeed, rocking the boat is often precisely what care for those children who are the most vulnerable—those we will need to do in this area, a point made by my without families who are looked after and live in noble friend Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville. children’s homes or in foster care, a point that the I turn to the current framework. The Sexual Offences noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, underlined. Act 2003 is intended to protect young people from On her specific point, it is the case that we can opt into sexual exploitation. It extended the scope of the law to the EU directive if we want to, once we have seen how include a range of new offences, including meeting a it works. child following sexual grooming and paying for the As a number of noble Lords have said, it is impossible sexual services of a child. In addition, the police and not to read the horrific stories that we have all seen Crown Prosecution Service are able to convict using recently and not be appalled. The Barnardo’s report other sexual offences, such as rape or sexual activity published in January underlined the youth of many with a child under 13 or a child under 16, or they may victims of child sexual exploitation, suggesting that use other legislation to disrupt this activity. children as young as 10 are being targeted. The statutory guidance on safeguarding and promoting The fact that most of us find such behaviour the welfare of children, Working Together to Safeguard inconceivable is, in some ways, part of the problem. Children, was first published in its current form following Having been involved in the past in a minor way in the 1989 Children Act. Since then it has been regularly some historic child abuse cases, I know that there is updated and in 2009 separate statutory guidance on often a reaction that an allegation simply cannot be the sexual exploitation of children was published. true, either because it is so shocking or because an I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, was alleged offender has been a colleague for many years. involved in producing that guidance. The main objective Yet some of those allegations were and are true and I of the guidance is to encourage local safeguarding believe that that is the frame of mind in which we have children boards, practitioners and others working with to tackle this issue. However, I accept the points made young people and local agencies to prevent the sexual GC 327 Children: Sexual Exploitation[LORDS] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 328

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] It will be my honourable friend’s job, working with exploitation of children wherever possible, protect others, to consider what further action may need to be those children who are most vulnerable to exploitation taken to safeguard children and young people from and take appropriate action against anyone who is sexual exploitation. intent on abusing young people in this way. I will be certain to ensure that my noble friend Because looked-after children—children in care—are reads today’s debate and I am happy to relay to him most vulnerable and more likely to be at risk of harm, any further specific concerns that noble Lords may local authorities have a specific statutory duty to have. I will ensure that there is an answer to the safeguard and promote their welfare. In practice, that questions raised by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. means that local authorities must allocate the child a I will also follow up separately the important points social worker, who will assess their needs and draw up made about the spread of technology by the noble a care plan that sets out how the authority intends to Baroness, Lady Howe, and respond to her. I am not an respond to the full range of the child’s needs, including expert in these matters, but common sense says that their education and health needs. I take the points that the ready availability of pornography has a desensitising have been made about the importance of training in effect, while the way in which technology can be used that regard. If there is any suspicion that the child may by people to work together to share images and to have been trafficked, whether or not for the purposes co-ordinate activity suggests that there is a growing of sexual exploitation, the social worker must assess problem there. the child’s vulnerability to the continuing control of The Government share with the right reverend Prelate his or her traffickers. The local authority must then and other noble Lords a recognition of the problem of place the child with a carer who has the necessary child sexual exploitation and of the particular skills and experience to support and protect them. vulnerabilities of looked-after children. It is almost I understand the point that was made about the impossible to comprehend the suffering that some of danger of criminalising the victim. Points were made these children and young people have endured and are about the way in which the police operate and I will enduring at the hands of their exploiters. Like all relay those to my honourable friend Mr Loughton. noble Lords, we are determined to do all that we can I shall read an extract from the statutory guidance: to stop this terrible abuse. “The Government remains clear that children and young people who are sexually exploited should not be regarded as 4.26 pm having bad or criminal behaviour; they are the victims of sexual abuse. The responsibility for the sexual exploitation of children or Sitting suspended. young people lies with the abuser … The focus of police investigations and of prosecutions should be on those who coerce, exploit and abuse children and young people”. Human Fertilisation and Embryology However, I will follow up the point that was raised. Authority/Human Tissue Authority I ran through that at quite a pace, but I wanted to Question make the point that the legislative framework is broadly in place. The issue that we have is that its application is 4.30 pm patchy. As has been said, early findings from research carried out by the University of Bedfordshire show Asked By Baroness Thornton that there are low levels of compliance with the 2009 guidance, suggesting that only a minority of local To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will authorities are prioritising child sexual exploitation as maintain public confidence and patient safety following a child protection issue. the abolition of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and the Human Tissue I turn to the steps that the Government are taking. Authority. The Barnardo’s report talks about the need for a lead Minister. That role is being carried out by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Baroness Thornton: My Lords, it seems appropriate Children, Tim Loughton, who has the cross-government that we are having a short debate on the proposed lead role on this issue as part of his child-safeguarding abolition of the HFEA and the HTA, as one might say responsibilities. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady that it is a sort of warm-up for the debates that we will Masham of Ilton, that he understands fully the need be having when the Public Bodies Bill restarts its for a collaborative and cross-departmental approach Committee stage, which I hope will be soon. to these issues. He is clear about that and he is involving This morning, the British Heart Foundation announced Ministers from a range of departments, including the that it is spending £50 million on stem cell research in Home Office, the Ministry of Justice and the Department the hope that one day it will be as easy to recover from of Health, as well as local authority children’s services, a heart attack as it is to repair a broken bone. A year local safeguarding children boards and organisations ago, the groundbreaking partnership was announced such as CEOP,Barnardo’s and others, and other voluntary between the Multiple Sclerosis Society and the UK organisations. He is already working with the Stem Cell Foundation to pump-prime and speed up Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Home stem cell research. This perhaps reflects science’s fast- Office, James Brokenshire, to develop a joint approach, moving progress in relation to stem cell research and and I know that they have both recently met Sheila the wonders that it might bring to medicine over the Taylor, who runs Safe and Sound Derby. Mr Loughton next few years. Right now, the HFEA is conducting a has also recently met the chief executive of Barnardo’s. consultation on the ethics of sperm and egg donation. GC 329 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 330

This issue is often in the media, which is unsurprising took its time to get these things right. It seems to me given what donation involves—that is, making children that, if Parliament is going to change the HFEA and who may not be genetically related to their parent or the HTA, it needs to take time to do that also. parents. The Government argue that the HFEA’s licensing As medical science advances, there seem to be more, function could be moved and that its very sensitive not fewer, ethical issues to address in this area. To records should become a responsibility elsewhere. I underline this point, not long ago—in fact, in March remind noble Lords that, on every occasion that last year—the noble Earl the Minister and I were Parliament has discussed human fertility since the dealing with the regulations arising out of the Human 1980s, it has agreed that human embryos have a unique Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 relating to the status and that their use for treatment and research disclosure of information for research purposes and requires special oversight. parental orders regarding the adoption of children Some say that IVF treatment has become so common born of surrogate mothers, among other matters. These that its regulation should be normalised in some way. I are both highly sensitive and important issues concerning point out that, although public opinion has indeed ethical and safeguarding matters and both rest in the moved, there are still powerful forces wishing to stop hands of an HFEA accountable to the Minister and to or limit the use of assisted conception and there are Parliament. still the unscrupulous who would wish to profit from, In preparing for this debate, I used as my starting for example, the longing of parents to have a baby. In point what both organisations do and I tried to work addition, there is a very real danger that important out how these functions might be undertaken in the research will be frustrated by people who have strong new regime that the noble Earl kindly outlined to and hostile views should the responsibility for ethical some of us not long ago. The HTA licenses and review be removed from the responsible but supportive inspects organisations that store and use human tissue environment fostered by the HFEA. for purposes such as research, patient treatment, post- The HFEA plays an important role in actively mortem examinations, teaching and public exhibitions. improving standards by, for example, being responsible It also approves organ and bone marrow donations for several consultations on issues of best practice, from living people. Its work covers anatomy, stem such as the ones to which I have referred. Reducing cells, cord blood, public display—that is, the public multiple pregnancies by limiting the number of embryos display of human body parts in various forms—post- transferred has been and remains an important part of mortems, coroners and transplants. It is clear to me its work. My question is whether the Care Quality that the HTA covers a wide but related range of Commission will take on the important role of ensuring competencies, as well as the ones that were behind the that clinics’ results are not achieved regardless of the organisation being established with such care some perinatal mortality associated with multiple pregnancy. years ago. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act is The ethical issues that arise all the time as a result the focus for interactions between doctors, nurses and of the advances in science throw up new and sometimes scientists. I suppose that these interactions could take very complex issues. Public indignation at the cavalier place elsewhere. However, all the disciplines have vested use of body parts for research without the knowledge interests and I point out, with the greatest respect, that or consent of patients and their families was huge and organisations such as the Royal College of Obstetricians many in your Lordships’ House will recall the thought and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Nursing, the and time that were given to creating a regulatory Association of Clinical Embryologists and the British framework that would command public confidence. Fertility Society do not have the same impartial image The Bill was given more than 100 hours of direct enjoyed by the HFEA. The public have learnt to trust parliamentary scrutiny in both Houses, not counting the HFEA and, indeed, the HTA. These bodies act as pre-legislative scrutiny or investigation by Select a bulwark between the sensational headlines in the less Committees. I fail to see what has changed that can responsible press and those who are working in the allow any slackening off of the responsibility that the field. Who would take on that role if either of these HTA bears for the uses of human tissue. bodies was abolished? Would Andrew Lansley, or indeed the noble Earl, be prepared to act as that The HFEA is the UK’s independent regulator of bulwark? treatment using eggs and sperm and of treatment and research involving human embryos. It sets standards UK legislation on these matters is the envy and the for and issues licences to centres; provides authoritative blueprint for the world. In Australia, for example, the information for the public, particularly for people states of Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia seeking treatment, donor-conceived people and donors; have legislated to establish statutory oversight bodies. and, very importantly, determines the policy framework In 2000, the Singapore Cabinet appointed a bioethics for fertility issues, which are sometimes ethically and advisory committee to examine the ethical, legal and clinically complex. The Human Fertilisation and social issues arising from biomedical research and Embryology Act 2008 includes provisions for research development. Again, that is not a government department on different types of embryos and changes the definition but a stand-alone, arm’s-length body. of legal parenthood for cases involving assisted I am not opposed to change and improvement and reproduction. More than 200 hours were spent scrutinising I am not opposed to these proposals for the sake of it. this and previous legislation in both Houses, not counting I support change to make organisations more effective— the need for Select Committees and pre-legislative for example, by sharing back-office functions or other scrutiny. I make this point to emphasise that Parliament facilities, by changing regulatory functions or by testing GC 331 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[LORDS] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 332

[BARONESS THORNTON] Many questions relating to the Human Tissue Act to see whether functions could be performed more were raised there. The answer of the then Government effectively elsewhere. It might be that the proposals was: “If these are mistakes, it is too early to correct that the Government have suggested so far for the them”. I have always thought that the sooner you HTA and the HFEA will provide efficient regulation correct a mistake that you have made, the better. I have of some of their functions through the CQC and no particular concern about the Human Tissue Authority. possibly through the still-to-be-created academy of Our Joint Committee raised the possibility of a degree medical science. However, none of the proposals answers of co-operation between the two authorities that had the question that is the subject of this debate: where not until then existed, although the situation may well would the ethical and safeguarding issues that are at have improved since we completed our deliberations. the heart of the work of both these bodies sit? However, it is absolutely clear that the committee I am aware that the Government have said that found no basis on which these two authorities could there is no intention to revisit the ethical and safeguarding properly be put together as a single authority. We were provisions in the HFE Act or the principles of consent absolutely unanimous and strongly of that view. underpinning the HTA, but they have so far failed to address how the ethical and safeguarding functions 4.45 pm might satisfactorily be carried out were these organisations not to exist. I cannot see the CQC or an academy of Lord Alderdice: My Lords, we are all grateful to the science being an appropriate body. That leaves us the noble Baroness for achieving this short debate—and it Secretary of State and the Government, which is is short; one has only a few minutes. For that reason, where we came in all those years ago with Alder Hey my noble friend Lord Willis of Knaresborough will and the challenges posed by the new embryo and address the HFEA, my noble friend Lady Williams of fertility advances of the 1980s. I suggest that public Crosby will have an overall look at the issue and I will confidence in this area is best established through the focus my attention on the Human Tissue Authority. independence of the bodies that regulate—the HTA I declare an interest, because my wife is a consultant and the HFEA—and that the Government need to histopathologist in the NHS in Northern Ireland. She rethink their proposals. does not do any forensic or coroner’s work, but I declare the interest in any case. The assumption in the noble Baroness’s Question is 4.40 pm that these bodies—I will refer now only to the Human Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I congratulate Tissue Authority—have increased public confidence the noble Baroness on securing this debate at this and patient safety. I am not at all sure that that is in time; it is perhaps an important interval, which we fact the case with the HTA. When I was much younger might not have expected to have but for other activities in medicine, I remember that one government requirement in the House. As your Lordships will know, I had the was that 10 per cent of deaths that did not require a privilege of introducing the HFEA legislation all those coroner’s case PM would be post-mortemed. Why? years ago, so I feel a certain parental responsibility Because the final judgment about whether or not towards the authority that prevents me from wanting clinical judgment was correct comes in the court of to see it perish. However, as children grow up, the the full and rigorous autopsy of the pathologist. There needs surrounding them can change and it may well be is no other way of being certain. Even then, one may asked whether all that the HFEA was set up to do not get a final answer. needs to be done in quite that way now. For example, What has happened over the last few years is that when it was set up, IVF was comparatively rare and it we have achieved not the 10 per cent figure but the would be fair to say that people were somewhat afraid almost complete disappearance of such post-mortems. of it. We had the benefit of the report of the noble Many histopathologists, especially those who are newly Baroness, Lady Warnock, suggesting what should happen. qualified, will no longer carry out post-mortems. The Since that time, IVF has become a much more Royal College of Pathologists is looking at whether it regularly occurring clinical process. Undoubtedly, there should allow pathologists to qualify without having have been questions—for example, about the number proper experience in post-mortems, because so few of of embryos to implant—but these processes take place them are being done. One cannot talk about increased in other areas as well; there are important risks in public confidence in post-mortems if the outcome has many clinical processes and we have authorities that been that almost nobody wants permission for them are responsible for monitoring them. There may well to be done. That expresses a lack of confidence in be a case, therefore, for considering whether the control post-mortems, not increasing confidence. of the practice of IVF should continue with the HFEA. I will be more specific. In February of last year, the Research, too, happens in many areas. It involves president of the Royal College of Pathologists wrote important ethical issues, even in other branches of to the then Secretary of State, the right honourable medicine and scientific research. I think that the HFEA Andy Burnham MP, with an eight-page letter—for was set up primarily from the point of view of that obvious reasons, I cannot quote it in any detail— research and its control. Although there may be room expressing the Royal College of Pathologists’ deep for modification, that should continue. lack of confidence in the work of the HTA. He began I have had no direct concern with the Human the letter by saying that the fall-out of the HTA’s Tissue Authority—I am glad to see its chair taking actions risked destabilising the provision of post-mortem part in our debate—but I had the privilege of sitting examination services in England and Wales. He wrote on the Select Committee that looked at the draft Bill. about the concerns not only of the royal college but of GC 333 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 334 the coroners’ service. He talked about the lack of trivial questions. The question of the status of the efficiency, citing the work of the CPA, which undertakes human embryo has always struck me as central to this external quality assessments for full laboratory services—in argument. other words, histopathology, haematology, microbiology I note that the chair of the HFEA, Professor Lisa and clinical chemistry. The fee that the CPA requires Jardine, said in the Guardian on 5 January that, for inspecting the entire laboratory service is half that “the safeguarding of the ‘special status of the embryo’ will be which the HTA requires for inspecting just the mortuary. lost”, Even in terms of efficiency, therefore, there are serious if the HFEA is abolished. In an article in the journal questions. When the HTA was established, it had a lot Nature last August, it was suggested that, of experienced people who had conducted post-mortems, “losing the HFEA as a discrete body could undermine public but that is no longer the case. confidence”. If the new Government understand that this is the The article on Professor Jardine adds that the HFEA, relationship that has developed between the professional “carefully shelters human embryos from routine experimentation”. bodies—to the point where pathologists are no longer Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether he has eager to carry out post-mortems—they would not be asked how many embryos have been thus spared; responsible if they did not take this issue seriously. surprisingly, the HFEA, via Parliamentary Questions, Should the Government not ask whether the HTA is says that it cannot tell. the best vehicle to carry out what are undoubted requirements for proper procedures to scrutinise this Whether it is the unnecessary destruction of human professional work? embryos, the dangers caused to women by hyperovulation syndrome—before the Committee met today I passed the Minister a new paper from a German medical 4.48 pm magazine about this question, because it goes right to the heart of patient safety—the ethics and mercantile Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, the noble Baroness nature of exploiting poorer women through the sale of has laid before us a Question that rightly draws attention eggs, an issue that the HFEA is currently considering, to two issues: public safety and public confidence. or the extraordinary way in which the HFEA has, for They are the issues that the Minister rightly addressed instance, pursued Dr Mohamed Taranissi, requiring it last week when he kindly and courteously invited us to to meet legal costs of nearly £190,000, it is obvious, as be given a briefing about the Government’s intentions. the current HFEA chief executive stated in a memo, For me the jury is out on these issues. I would that, certainly want to see, at the very minimum, a reform of “something clearly has gone wrong—badly wrong over a sustained the HFEA. The Minister will recall, as other noble length of time”. Lords will, the debates that we had during the passage At the very minimum, I think that reform is needed. of the Bill, when a number of us argued for the I would therefore be grateful to hear how Her creation of a national bioethics commission to oversee Majesty’s Government propose that there should be some of these ethical issues. I suppose that I subscribe what the Minister himself has described as a “lighter to the cautionary verse of Hilaire Belloc, who said, touch”. Is that something that people such as me “always keep a-hold of Nurse should be fearful of, or should we welcome it? Does it For fear of finding something worse”. mean that in any sense there will be less regulation? I would like to see the colour of the Government’s Will the status of the human embryo be diminished money. I want to see precisely what they have in mind further? How will the exercise of the HFEA’s powers before coming to a conclusion. through this lighter touch be done? Also, how will the It is worth going back, as the noble and learned Government ensure that the requirements of the Human Lord did in his remarks, to the creation of the HFEA. Fertilisation and Embryology Act, which stand in As the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, has said, it was place, will be adhered to if the HFEA ceases to exist in necessary to create it—these were the words of the its present form? Who will be responsible for the Warnock report— transfer of sensitive data that the HFEA holds? How will independence, freedom from undue influence or “if the public is to have confidence”. sectional interests and a diverse range of views be upheld? She said that it needed to be an “independent body”, that the membership was, 4.53 pm “not to be unduly influenced by sectional interests”, and that its membership was to include, Lord Winston: My Lords, I most grateful to my noble friend Lady Thornton for introducing this debate. “a diverse range of views”. It is rather delightful for me to be able, on this rare She also laid great emphasis on what she described as occasion, to support the Government’s position and the, to support the Minister—at least, I suspect that I will “special status of the human embryo”. be supporting him. It is a particular delight to see the I have a Question on the Order Paper at the moment noble Lord, Lord Wigley, attending this debate; it was asking the Minister to update the figures given to us he who, in 1985, broke the Speaker’s Chair in the by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, during debate when the Private Member’s Bill came in as part the passage of the legislation two years ago, but the of Enoch Powell’s attempt at legislation. I, of course, figure that was given then was that some 2 million can declare an interest as an ex-poacher in this area—I embryos had been destroyed or experimented on since no longer run an IVF unit—and I note that I am the passage of the 1990 legislation, so these are not followed by a noble Baroness who was a gamekeeper. GC 335 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[LORDS] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 336

[LORD WINSTON] I wish to raise the issue of inspection and the issue I must say that I was open-mouthed at the quality raised by my most admired poacher on the question of and the succinctness of the speech of the noble and medical research. First, there clearly has to be some learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, when he inspection of the clinics that fall under the HFEA. I introduced the HFE Act. It seemed like a model of would be grateful if the Minister could tell us his view what should happen. It is fair to say that at the time it of how that inspection will function. It may be more was an essential piece of legislation, which has now limited than it used to be, as the noble Lord, Lord passed its day. It is no longer necessary; the research Winston, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that it regulates is not really suitable for regulation by said, but it must be maintained at the level of day-to-day the HFEA. I believe that other areas of medical practice. It is very important that that should be so in research, such as paediatrics, obstetrics, geriatrics and order that patients can have some sense of the safety assisted dying, in many ways raise much more important of the enterprise. ethical issues on a day-to-day basis. With stem cell On the much bigger issue of medical ethics, raised research, the HFEA is inadequate for the purpose. A by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, we are completely different body is needed, since stem cell looking at a tremendous multiplication of the issues research is ubiquitous and affects every tissue in the around ethics and the massive advance of life sciences. body, including the brain and the liver, and will clearly I accept that that cannot be dealt with by the HFEA, be an important replacement therapy in future. If it is with its rather limited terms of reference. We must try to be regulated, it needs a different kind of touch. to bring together a much more significant body to As for clinical regulation, frankly the HFEA cannot look at the whole issue of the relationship between prevent accidents or errors. It has not done that and it ethics and life sciences. In that context, may I sweeten cannot do that; no regulatory authority can do that that pill by suggesting to the Minister that one way in completely, any more than any other way of inspecting which one could develop the great idea of a great laboratories can. It does not prevent exploitation of society would be to look at a marriage between a body women, who pay massive fees—in my view that had status in government terms with the other unreasonably—and has not helped in the costing of great bodies that look into these matters—the Nuffield IVF treatment. It is unable to prevent fertility tourism, Council on Bioethics, the Royal Society and others? In which goes around British legislation on a regular that way, one might get a genuinely wide spectrum of basis, and has not prevented clinics from collaborating opinion, including great scientists and ethicists, on the with overseas units in allowing their patients to go to issues that now confront us with life sciences. I believe places such as Spain and Russia to seek treatment that that, unless we do that, we will quickly run into real they cannot offer themselves—with what kind of problems where dogmatic forces take up resistance to relationship, I am not sure. any advances or other dogmatic forces look at the There is a repeated assertion that the HFEA has commercial elements as the way to guide our consideration always assuaged public concerns about IVF. I think of biological and biochemical ethics in future years. that that was true 20 years ago but it is not true any longer. The public are pretty mature about this area, 5pm as was shown clearly by the hybrid embryo Bill. Things Baroness Deech: My Lords, I declare an interest as have moved on and the public are rather more the former chair of the HFEA. For most of my tenure sophisticated. I was paid the princely sum of £8,000 per annum, but Lastly, one of my concerns about the HFEA is that it was a burden—nearly a full-time burden—that I it is extremely costly for men and women who are undertook with pride and viewed as a privilege, grateful already paying for these services. I have just checked that infertility had not affected me. I wished to help on the cost at Hammersmith Hospital, a clinic that I others safely and with respect for their dignity, avoiding used to direct. Effectively, the HFEA requires two exploitation, and I remained in awe of the achievement extra salaries to be paid and individual patients will of the scientists. pay on average around £300 for the use of IVF licences This debate, for which I am grateful, is about public for their treatment. That seems an unfair burden in an confidence. It is not about confident, or self-confident, area of medicine that is already extremely burdensome doctors; nor is it about how wonderful and trustworthy for the patients. our doctors and embryologists are. If that were the issue, we would not need regulation in many walks of professional life and the controversy surrounding the 4.57 pm Public Bodies Bill would fade away. It is easy in these Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I also surroundings or among researchers and specialists to congratulate the noble Baroness on securing and forget how sensitive the issues of IVF and embryos introducing this debate. One thing that she pointed to, are, and how very concerned the public are. The most which concerns many of us, is the extent to which vivid event during the passage of the Human Fertilisation there are huge commercial pressures in this field, and Embryology Bill three years ago was the hundreds which have led in other countries to an almost complete of members of the public protesting outside this Palace abandonment of what one might describe as the ethical about the possible extension of embryo research to limits that are widely understood in the medical profession. animal hybrids. If your name, like mine, is associated With an issue such as whether a grandmother’s frozen with embryo research, you are the recipient of hundreds eggs should be used for the purposes of fertilisation, of letters about it, and not always peaceful or one has to say that the difficulty in reaching a proper unthreatening ones. As the noble Baroness, Lady conclusion rises daily. Warnock, said in her esteemed report of 1984, the GC 337 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 338 public want to know that some principles are involved. “The Human Tissue Act has provided a new foundation for It is also not to be forgotten that most of the treatment the people of this country ... consent was the cornerstone of the in this country is private, and therefore a great deal of Act, and this must colour all of the work of the Human Tissue money is involved and the need for protection is all the Authority”. greater. European law, as referred to by the noble The authority has put informed consent at the centre Lord, Lord Winston, is a weakness in that protection of everything it does, and by doing so it has ensured but unavoidable. the safe and ethical use of human tissue. I can confidently Any analogy with the progress of science in the US, say that it has turned around the crisis in public which is largely unregulated, is false. The US has been confidence. However, it would be misguided to be home to some of the scandals that have echoed around complacent. The improvement is by no means universal the world, whether it was a clinician using his own or fully embedded. The reasons why we were set up sperm, octuplets or the sale of eggs and sperm by have not gone away. needy college students for large sums of money. That I am not hidebound or precious about which bodies is not a road that we wish to risk going down, but we should do the work, nor are my authority members. are not risking it under the Government’s proposal. What we are concerned about is ensuring that the Those who want to see the HFEA abolished seem to advances we have made are not lost, particularly the think that there will then be no regulation and that hard-won confidence of the public in the proper use of they will be free to do what they want, and quickly. organs and tissue. We believe that the current proposals But no—the law will be the same; consent will be to transfer our functions to three or possibly four needed exactly as before, and so will licences. Taking different organisations risk undermining the progress the processes into other organisations can be guaranteed that has been made. to be no faster, no less bureaucratic and no cheaper; Paula O’Leary, of the Alder Hey parents’ support just worse. IVF is not routine because, although it is group PITY II, said recently: practised very often, any one treatment can throw up “We fought hard for 10 years … who is to say this is not going not only ethical issues that are known to us, such as to start up all over again?”. saviour siblings, but also new ones, as the science progresses every day. One cannot separate the collection Roger Goss from Patient Concern said: of embryos and eggs from patients from their storage, “Dividing would be diluting. That would be going back down their storage from donation for research, donation for the hill in terms of protecting patients’ rights to exercise informed research from new research and stem cell work, and consent”. none of that from the great database, patient guidance The best way of making sure that does not happen is and reliable statistics and health screening of donors. to maintain a clear focus on the safe and ethical use of The risks will be too great and the gains from the human tissues and organs across all our sectors. To do government proposal nil, and our international reputation that, we need to keep our functions together. That will suffer. way, we maintain a consistently rigorous approach to We are talking about an annual expenditure of consent, and guarantee an individual’s right to decide, £7 million, of which only £1.5 million to £2 million in life and in death, what happens to their bodies and comes from the Government, and even this, I am told, the bodies of their loved ones. could be reduced. Certainly patients will still have to The HTA is a small organisation with a broad pay for regulation if the tasks of the HFEA are remit. Our activities are interdependent. There are dismembered, so it will be no cheaper for them either. pathologist researchers, and researchers treating patients Placing the regulation with the CQC is misguided. with tissue. Researchers study organs to improve This is a new organisation. There have already been the success of transplants. They are all regulated by hints that it is overburdened and its operations have the HTA and the ethical issues are common to all the not always been met with praise. There is no improvement sectors that we regulate. The gift of organs and tissues in public confidence there; nor will the public be is a special one, giving rise to special ethical considerations. persuaded that embryos will be treated with respect During the passage of the Human Tissue Act, consent and that there will be bounds on embryo research if it was described as the golden thread through all our is handed over to unknowns and not the accountable activities. That is why there is a single set of core and expert figures of the HFEA. Review, yes; reversal, no. standards across all the sectors that we regulate under the Act. 5.04 pm We are a lean organisation. The money that we get from the Department of Health is £1 million a year, Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, in about one-sixth of our total cost. We have to earn the congratulating my noble friend on the timeliness of rest. What we do makes a difference. Last year, we this debate, I must declare my interest as chair of the approved 1,100 organ donations from living people. Human Tissue Authority. Since we began regulating, these numbers have increased As my noble friend said, the authority was set up as year by year. We work to give more people the gift of a result of the organ retention scandals at Alder Hey life offered by organ transplants. When tissue is used and Bristol. The retention of children’s organs—including in medical treatments—such as the use of bone marrow in some cases their hearts—without the consent or stem cells in cancer treatments, or skin for burns knowledge of their parents, rightly created outrage. It victims—people can be confident that they are safe resulted in a crisis of public confidence. At the time, and good quality and have been donated with consent. David and Hazel Thewlis, representatives of those If stem cells are collected from umbilical cord blood affected, said: for potential future use, we safeguard the safety of GC 339 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[LORDS] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 340

[BARONESS WARWICK OF UNDERCLIFFE] The Joint Committee also carefully considered the mother and child and the quality of the cells. Our regulation of research using not only human embryos regulation of mortuaries means that individuals and but also admixed embryos, including cytoplasmic hybrid their families can have confidence that their loved ones embryos. The fact that a single regulatory authority are treated with dignity and respect. In research, too, could make decisions in the round—recognising that people can know that tissue will be kept only with groundbreaking research was but a short step away their consent or the consent of their family, so they from clinical practice—appeared to us at the time to can be confident that their wishes will be respected. be a distinct advantage. I believe that it remains a I have no quarrel with the Government’s intention distinct advantage today. Indeed, it is because a single to simplify the regulatory landscape. My plea is simply authority, independent of the Government, was able that we do not jeopardise the gains that the HTA has to exercise its regulatory duties over all activities involving made by spreading its functions across a number of the human embryo that confidence in this extremely disparate organisations and losing the coherent overall sensitive, ethical and emotive area of human science approach that has been so successful in promoting has progressed with support from the public. Also, public and professional confidence in the safe and because there was an experienced independent regulator, ethical use of tissues and organs. science was able to triumph over the reactionary views of the then health Chief Medical Officer, who regarded 5.08 pm admixed embryos as “Yuk”. Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, I congratulate Crucially, where is the evidence that such change as the noble Baroness on this debate. Indeed, it is—as the is being proposed will benefit science and clinical noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said to me when I came practice and improve public confidence? Of course, into the Room—like Groundhog Day: we are back there is a strong argument—the noble Lord, Lord again debating exactly the same things. I thought that Winston, made it in our committee—that fertility we had put these issues to bed. I do not, in fact, treatments using embryos are now commonplace and oppose my noble friend’s proposals on principle. It is should be regulated like any other medical procedures. right that we constantly look at the organisations and If the Minister believes that, let us have a public that we constantly review their procedures to make debate about it. Likewise, if the recent report of the sure that they meet the times. Nor do I claim infallibility Academy of Medical Sciences into the broader issue for either the HFEA or the HTA. They are not infallible of the regulation and governance of medical research and are in constant need of reform and refreshment. is going to be the blueprint for the new proposals, let However, it is the lack of clarity over what is proposed, us have a public consultation and a public debate on it. the lack of any consultation on the proposals, and in Let us not rush into removing organisations that have particular the lack of any public involvement in these huge public confidence and the confidence of clinicians, proposals that makes me concerned about the future as it would be rather like throwing out the baby with functions of both the HTA and the HFEA. the bathwater. On 13 October last year, in response to a Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, the Minister 5.13 pm said that, “20 years ago it may have made sense to look at a single body for Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, I, too, thank my carrying out the functions undertaken by the HFEA”. noble friend Lady Thornton for initiating this debate, He went on to say: as well as other noble Lords who have spoken with “Times have moved on”.—[Official Report, 13/10/10; col. 512.] much experience and in-depth knowledge on this matter. It is particularly timely as the Government consider However, it was not 20 years ago that Parliament their response to the major concerns about the inclusion discussed this issue; in fact, it was three years. It is of the HFEA and HTA among the bodies to be three years since the Joint Committee on the Human abolished under the Public Bodies Bill, whose Committee Tissue and Embryos (Draft) Bill, which I was privileged stage discussions we are set to resume. to chair—four members of that committee are in the Moses Room today—carried out detailed scrutiny of As has been stated, we on these Benches can speak proposals to amalgamate the HFEA, the Human Tissue with some authority on this matter, having, as the Authority and the MHRA into a single authority, House will be aware, closely examined the case for RATE. The unanimous view of the committee and of merging the HFEA and HTA into a single body just Parliament during debate on the successor Bill was to over two years ago while we were in Government. We retain separate regulators. No one proposed amendments came to the firm conclusion that two distinct independent to change that during the passage of the Bill. There regulatory bodies needed to be retained to oversee the was unanimity in both Houses that the use and practice areas of human tissue and assisted reproduction. of both tissue and embryos should remain separate As the BMA has stated, the UK has been well and that they should in fact have separate regulators. served by the HFEA and the HTA, and both have What is more, that was the overwhelming view of the been used as models for other jurisdictions in dealing medical and scientific community, including the Royal with extremely technical and legally complex areas of College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the BMA, practice. The RCN has said in respect of the HFEA the Royal Society, the Association of Medical Research that the current high level of expertise and experience Charities, the Academy of Medical Science, the Royal within the body is extremely valuable and that it would College of Nursing, the Wellcome Trust, the MRC not be in the public interest to transfer regulatory and the Royal College of Pathologists. What has changed functions to other organisations, as this knowledge since 2008 to mean that all that is no longer appropriate? might be lost to the detriment of patient safety. The GC 341 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 342

HFEA’s chair, Professor Lisa Jardine, has described We on these Benches again urge the Government to areas covered by the HFEA as the most controversial reconsider their position and remove the HFEA and area of medicine apart from assisted dying, the most HTA from the bodies to be deleted under Schedule 5. morally difficult and carefully legislated-for area and the most tightly regulated. 5.17 pm The HTA, born out of the terrible events at Alder The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Hey and Bristol hospitals, and the crisis in public Department of Health (Earl Howe): I start by expressing confidence over unauthorised retention of babies’ organs my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for and tissues, has in our view established hard-won trust tabling this debate, and to all speakers for raising their and respect among the public and professionals. My concerns on this very important set of issues. Let me noble friend Lady Warwick is right to express concern say immediately that the need to maintain public that this will be lost if the current clear focus of the confidence in every part of the NHS is absolutely HTA is diminished in the transfer of its functions and vital, particularly in areas as delicate as embryology role. and human tissue. This does not mean that we do not recognise the I can offer your Lordships absolute reassurance scope for review and change within either body, or today that our plans do not represent any threat to how the regulatory framework may be developed in patient safety, nor to the safeguards held within the the future. Both bodies themselves acknowledge this. legislative framework of provisions within the Human We also recognise that many in the key professional Fertilisation and Embryology Act and the Human groups involved are supportive of such changes as Tissue Act. bringing all medical research regulation, including The Department of Health carried out its review of embryo research, within the remit of a single medical arm’s-length bodies and published its recommendation research regulatory authority, as recommended by the in July 2010. We recognise the important role that the Academy of Medical Sciences. However, time and Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and space would be needed for independent examination the Human Tissue Authority have played in the regulation and review of this and the broader issues of how of their respective areas over the years. We thank them functions should be delivered in future and the risks, sincerely for it. Our recommendations in respect of benefits and costs, rather than just the current focus these bodies took account of the complexities and on how functions are to be transferred. sensitivities attached to the particular areas in which they operate. We are concerned that the Government’s process is to transfer functions to bodies that are as yet undeveloped We are not rushing. We have allowed for the full and untested in this area of expertise. The Care Quality length of the planned Parliament to take these changes Commission is very much an organisation in transition to their conclusion. That is far longer than any other and development, as it plans to take on a range of new change proposed within the department’s review, a duties and work envisaged in the Health and Social decision that reflects both the importance of the two Care Bill. The role and possible functions of the new bodies and a recognition that we need to consult fully medical research body, and of the health and social on, and settle, the detail of all the changes. However, care information centre, need much more work and we are clear that a more joined-up system needs to be development. All this is in the context of the Department formed. of Health having its work cut out, taking on a huge With the establishment of the Care Quality volume of work, responsibilities and functions that Commission, and the Academy of Medical Sciences’ will come its way from the abolition or reorganisation recommendation for a new health research agency, of many of the other bodies due to be axed in the new alternative structures have become available to Public Bodies Bill. ensure a more cohesive system for both healthcare and health research regulation that will benefit patients, This is also at a time when the Government themselves health professionals and researchers. It is therefore are committed to large-scale staff reductions in the our intention that the healthcare-related licensing functions Department of Health. There are also key issues of of the HFEA and HTA will transfer to the CQC. accountability and independence at stake. Professional The CQC already regulates a wide range of NHS bodies and clinicians directly regulated by the HFEA, and independent healthcare providers. It registers them for example, of course have a key view of the changes and ensures that they are meeting essential standards needed, but they are not the only stakeholders, as of safety and quality. It takes action if services drop speakers in this afternoon’s debate have underlined. below these essential standards and acts quickly if Dismantling the HFEA and HTA, diluting their people’s rights or safety are at risk. It undertakes accountability and handing over their powers to Ministers investigations where there are concerns about quality, and civil servants on such sensitive issues needs public seeks the views of people who use services and informs involvement and stakeholder conversation, as speakers people about the quality of those services. Noble have pointed out. How would the new organisations Lords will recognise that this is similar to the roles be independently scrutinised and accountable? How undertaken by the HFEA and HTA, on a smaller much money would be saved from transferring the scale, in respect of the regulation of infertility treatment functions of the HFEA and HTA to the CSQ and new and activities involving the use of human tissue. bodies? Will the Minister explain in more detail the We estimate that about 80 per cent of the centres timetable that he is currently working to for consultation currently licensed by the HFEA are either regulated and development of the new framework? by the CQC or in premises that it regulates. The CQC GC 343 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[LORDS] Human Fertilisation and Embryology GC 344

[EARL HOWE] functions will go to the CQC, the potential health also covers 60 per cent of the centres licensed by research agency, the Health and Social Care Information the HTA. It therefore seems wasteful, and indeed Centre or elsewhere. The exact detail of how the unsustainable, to continue to have these regulatory powers in the Public Bodies Bill might be used will be systems running in parallel. It makes sense to streamline, considered further and in detailed discussion with the and ultimately to trust the CQC with the responsibility. HFEA, HTA, CQC and key stakeholders and in public There is no reason why the CQC should not be able to consultation. fulfil that responsibility as effectively as do the HFEA and HTA now. Secondly, our plans are about streamlining the functions of the regulatory bodies concerned. I regard that as The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked about the precursor to the lighter touch referred to by the the multiple birth policy. That is an issue that concerns noble Lord, Lord Alton. The lighter touch itself will the safety of patients and their children, and it would revolve around the design of systems, which will ensure fit very well into the CQC’s remit. that the burden of bureaucracy is lessened overall for Noble Lords will be aware of the Academy of the NHS and other organisations. The CQC and the Medical Sciences’ report on the regulation and HFEA will play a leading role in the development of governance of medical research. The report has made an efficient approach. recommendations for simplifying the complex framework of regulation. In particular, it suggests the introduction I stress again that, despite what some commentators of a new health research agency. The report has been have said, there is no intention to revisit the ethical embraced by a wide range of groups and experts. It provisions and safeguards in the HFE Act, the principles recognises that there are significant benefits in bringing set out in the Warnock Report, or the principles of all medical research regulation, including embryo research, consent underpinning the Human Tissue Act. The within the remit of a single medical research regulatory proposed powers in the Public Bodies Bill could not be authority. The Government welcome the report and used to do any of those things. The noble Baroness, are considering their response. Lady Thornton, asked what had changed regarding the principles that were debated at length in both The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to Lisa Jardine’s Houses of Parliament. The answer is: nothing. The comments about the threat to the status of the embryo. HFE Act provisions that recognise the special status I emphasise that the intention is to co-ordinate health of the human embryo will remain in place, entirely as research regulation better so that the system is streamlined they are now, as will the provisions in the Human without changing or compromising the safeguards. Tissue Act that ensure that donors’ and families’ rights Current quality and ethical safeguards for research and safety are protected. involving the use of a human embryo, for example, must be necessary for the research to be approved, and The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said that she will remain very firmly in place. It is worth reflecting did not have a closed mind to some sort of reorganisation that, although the statutory requirement that the use of functions, and I am hope I am right in detecting the of embryos is necessary and that the research is necessary same message from the noble Baronesses, Lady Deech or desirable will remain in place, a research regulatory and Lady Warwick, and my noble friend Lord Willis. authority with a broad outlook across medical research That is welcome. All would say, as I have explained on would be well positioned to make that assessment. previous occasions, is that if we cannot secure a place The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked who for the HFEA and HTA with the Public Bodies Bill would be the keeper of ethical safeguards. I would say then we will have to look to a future health Bill to simply that the ethical safeguards are laid out in support the transfer of functions, however we decide legislation, as agreed by Parliament. that that transfer should be conducted. However, to move into primary legislation would mean that the The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, suggested that safeguards enshrined within the HFEA and HTA those in favour of the Government’s proposals think Acts would then be open to parliamentary scrutiny that they will not be regulated at all. I have not gained and vulnerable to amendment. I know that very few that impression. The letters from professional bodies—the noble Lords would relish that scenario. British Fertility Society, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and leading clinicians—show clearly Thirdly, we envisage that our proposals should that they understand that regulation and legislative offer benefits to patients, healthcare professionals and provisions will remain firmly in place. researchers. We want the streamlining of regulation There are three key points that I want to make at and reduction in the number of regulators to mean a this juncture. First—I say this especially to my noble less burdensome and bureaucratic system, both for the friend Lord Willis—my department is planning to NHS and for the independent sector. We will work undertake a public consultation exercise this summer with the HFEA and HTA to try to ensure that those about where HFEA and HTA functions are best with the necessary expertise will follow their functions transferred. We regard this as a key part of the process. to the new arrangements so that it is not lost. We will consult on any subsequent use of powers We have received significant numbers of representations agreed in the Public Bodies Bill to effect those transfers. from professional bodies and clinicians who are directly Effectively, therefore, there will be two consultations. regulated by the HFEA, expressing support for the The noble Lord, Lord Alton, understandably said Government’s proposal to include the HFEA in the that he would like to see the colour of the Government’s Public Bodies Bill. Many also expressed concern about money before reaching a view on these issues. As yet, the HFEA’s current approach to regulation. I have no final decisions have been reached on exactly which placed these in the Library. GC 345 Human Fertilisation and Embryology[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 346

My noble friend Lady Williams asked about legitimate snacks they need when they need them; they are public concerns about patient safety. I point out that denied access to their medicines when they need them the EU tissues and cell directive sets out robust provisions because they are “safely locked away”; and they experience for safety and quality, covering assisted reproduction bullying. Many young children are also left to inject and the human application of tissue and cells. The role insulin themselves, leading to increased fear and anxiety of competent authority to regulate against the for their parents. It is therefore not just the children requirements of the directive and standards for quality with diabetes who get a raw deal; their parents do too. and safety will remain in place to ensure that patient As well as the worry that parents feel for their safety remains a key consideration. children, many are forced to give up work because The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked where the schools refuse support if a child is unaccompanied by Government saw the information functions going. We a parent. Diabetes UK continually hears from parents will have to consult on that issue carefully with all who are unable to work because they have to go into the bodies concerned. We will give due regard to the school to administer medicine. Diabetes UK also sensitivity and confidentiality of the nature of the continually hears from parents who have to fight for information currently held by the HFEA and HTA, basic support from a school and they do not always and we envisage that it will be a key area on which we get it. Some children have even been forced to move will consult. schools. They have heart-breaking stories, and there is My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and my an emotional and financial strain on families. noble friend Lord Willis referred to the proposal two At this point, I congratulate Diabetes UK, which or three years ago to form RATE. This is a completely has established an advocacy service offering vital help different proposal; RATE simply involved replacing for families struggling with these issues. Diabetes UK the HFEA and HTA with a single organisation that deals with around 100 enquiries a month. I also commend would undertake all the functions of the two bodies in the charity for its long-running efforts to improve the their entirety. The proposal was rejected because the lives of all children with diabetes at school. benefits of doing so for embryo research, for example, Noble Lords may ask: why does this issue matter were not apparent. The current proposal to indentify when only a small number of children live with type l where individual functions might best be placed is a diabetes? However, it is not a small number. More different approach and has more potential obvious than half of our schools have children with diabetes. benefits, such as more streamlining and cohesion. In recent times, childhood obesity and poor food My noble friend Lady Williams asked why the choices leading to type 2 diabetes have been the focus Government did not set up a national bioethics committee. of attention. While these issues should not be ignored, The consideration of specific ethical issues by bodies only 1,400 children in the UK have that form of such as Nuffield and parliamentary scrutiny committees diabetes. However, 20,000 children under the age of remains the preferred approach. 15 have type 1 diabetes. Its incidence is increasing, particularly in the under-fives, where the number affected has increased fivefold over the past two decades. Two Education: Children with Diabetes thousand children are diagnosed with type 1 diabetes Question every year. Children with diabetes have as much right as any 5.32 pm other children to a decent quality of education and school experience, yet their school experience varies Asked By Lord Kennedy of Southwark greatly from no school support and very patchy support to good, child-centred provision. Many of our schools To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps are failing to help children with diabetes to participate they are taking to ensure that all children with fully in learning and school life. Worse still, a lack of diabetes are able to benefit from an education at education among pupils, parents and teachers leads to school. bullying and children struggling to fit in. That increases Lord Kennedy of Southwark: First, I declare that I their anxiety about being “different”—a feeling which have type 2 diabetes, having been diagnosed with the could affect their confidence level in school and throughout condition nearly two years ago. I am a member of the life. charity Diabetes UK and actively support its work. David, a boy from a school in Northamptonshire I thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, for who was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes when he was being here to respond to this debate. I am sure he has a three, got upset when a girl told him that she was not busy diary and his attendance is very much appreciated. allowed to play with him in case she caught his diabetes. I am delighted that my noble friend Lady Young of Another boy used to call him “Diabetes Boy”. He Old Scone is also taking part. She is the chief executive remembers how he was not invited to play at his of Diabetes UK, and I think it is fair to say that we are friends’ houses, as their parents were scared that they all looking forward to her informed contribution to could not deal properly with his diabetes if they needed to. this debate. I also look forward to the maiden speech Children with type 1 diabetes are at risk of heart of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. disease, blindness, amputations and kidney failure, so Too many children with type 1 diabetes get a raw proper control of their condition is imperative. It is deal at school. Many of our children are excluded vital to keep their blood sugar regulated, avoiding from school trips or social events; they are excluded fluctuations. Regular blood-sugar tests and injections, from PE lessons; they are prevented from eating the sometimes up to four or five times a day, are necessary GC 347 Education: Children with Diabetes[LORDS] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 348

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] diabetes or any health condition are recognised as a to avoid life-threatening complications. These tests vulnerable group and their well-being is properly and injections have to take place during school. It is supported. not a choice; it is a necessity. Insulin, via injection or The plight faced by children with diabetes at school pump, sometimes several times a day, is vital for life. exemplifies fundamental failings in public policy, bringing At a school in Warwickshire, Jane, a young girl, was health and education together at a national and local diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 11. She level. Effective partnerships need to be built, and was told not to inject herself in public as it was schools need to be required to provide staff training so “disgusting”, but these injections have to take place that teachers have the confidence to support children during the school day. with diabetes properly and ensure that the guidance is Too many schools are uncomfortable about dealing followed. Inspection is the key to ensuring the proper with children with diabetes. Another school was not implementation of policies and procedures. We need treating a six year-old’s “hypos” when they occurred, to establish standards in schools for the support of nor telling the child’s parents. It also refused to do the children with specific health conditions and place a blood glucose monitoring test because staff felt too duty on Ofsted to monitor whether that is provided. squeamish. Do the Government know the number of children Many schools lack knowledge and have a fear of in our schools with long-term conditions and the liability. In one school, although it had a nurse to numbers for each condition? It is only with accurate assist children with diabetes, children were excluded information that the Government can know the amount when the nurse was on leave or absent, and pupils were and type of support needed to plan accordingly. As made to wait outside the school gates until the nurse Ed Balls, Labour’s former Secretary of State for Children, arrived each morning. There are some reports of schools Schools and Families, said, we want this to be the best expecting parents to ignore clinical advice and change place for children to grow up. That is why Every Child a child’s testing and injection regime to suit the schools’ Matters. Every child needs the chance to fulfil their scheduling. Surely this should be the other way round. full potential. In conclusion, I ask the Minister to agree to meet Five year-olds banned from school sports days; the delegation from Diabetes UK and myself to explore schools refusing to hold supplies of insulin or blood-testing what can be done to improve the situation. I do not kits; worse still, schools refusing to have children with believe that this involves huge costs; rather, it involves diabetes in their classes; a nurse refusing treatment to a willingness and a desire to see the situation improved. a toddler—the list of shocking accounts goes on. As Daniel at age five said: “I like school, but school Some schools believe that administering medicine is doesn’t like me”. not their responsibility. A Diabetes UK survey showed that, although more than half of schools were aware 5.41 pm that they had pupils with diabetes, 70 per cent required either that such children injected themselves or that Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, the recent report their parents came in to do it. Only 16 per cent allowed from Diabetes UK published last November claims staff to test and give medicines to pupils. that inequalities in support for children with diabetes in England’s primary schools could be putting the That is why more than 80 per cent of five to health of up to 84 per cent of five to 11 year-olds with 11 year-old children with diabetes are failing to achieve the condition at risk. It found that only 16 per cent of good control of their condition. This is the worst level schools that have such children on the roll have a in Europe. It means increased health problems for our medication policy and administer vital insulin. This children and worsening health as they enter adulthood. issue is not confined to diabetes; it is broader than It is a preventable strain on the resources of the NHS that. There are other serious but manageable conditions and a preventable level of suffering. which children have for which this is an issue. We should have policies and procedures that protect I was surprised to read that this is not really a our children, not put their health at risk. Too many minority issue, since 52 per cent of primary schools children struggle to keep their diabetes under control. have at least one child with this condition and, of Schools need to be part of the solution, not the cause course, other schools have epileptic children and those of the problem. They have a vital part to play in with serious nut allergies and so on. All require special supporting the daily management of diabetes in children. attention to the needs of the child. I was horrified to There are some great schools which support children read in the report that, when the school cannot administer with diabetes very well. The right attitude and leadership insulin during school hours, often the parents have to at a school can make a huge difference. Their good come in to do so, jeopardising their opportunities to practice needs to become standard practice in all hold down a paid job. schools. All children with diabetes should be known to When considering matters such as this I always turn the school, with individual care plans prepared with to my bible, the UN Convention on the Rights of the the child, parent, doctor and teacher. Good practice Child, to which this country has been a signatory for involves a positive school attitude, a child-centred 20 years. There are five articles in the convention approach and a high level of training for the staff. The which are relevant to this issue and, taken together, aim in every school, or at least every school with a enshrine the rights of diabetic children as well as all child with diabetes, should be to train all teachers and others. Article 4 on the protection of rights says: support staff. Government need to be proactive and “Governments have a responsibility to take all available measures strengthen existing legislation so that children with to make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled”. GC 349 Education: Children with Diabetes[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 350

Article 6 on survival and development says: opening speech. Children with diabetes should not be “Children have the right to live. Governments should ensure excluded from lessons such as PE—they actually need that children survive and develop healthily”. exercise to help them to control their blood sugar—to Article 23, on children with disabilities, says: extracurricular activities and school trips. Their human “Children who have any kind of disability have the right to dignity requires that they have proper opportunities special care and support, as well as all the rights in the Convention, for injecting insulin, where necessary, in hygienic so that they can live full and independent lives”. conditions. We do not normally consider diabetes as a disability I am pleased that the Education Bill published last but, for these purposes, these rights are relevant. Then week retains the duty on schools to promote the there is Article 24 on health and health services, which well-being of their pupils. In some cases, such as those says: of children with disabilities and conditions such as “Children have the right to good quality health care”, diabetes, that requires special measures because these are special children. Is that duty enough, or does the the best possible in that country. Finally, Article 28, on Minister think that other measures are required to the right to education, which says: ensure that schools take that duty seriously? “All children have the right to a primary education, which should be free”. It also says that any form of school discipline should 5.47 pm take into account the child’s human dignity. Excluding Lord Lexden: My Lords, Tories above all love traditions. the child from school just because a nurse is not on the A new Member of this House, deeply conscious of the premises flouts their rate to an education. Certainly privilege of entering it, immediately encounters one of asking a child to inject their insulin in the school its most agreeable traditions. I refer of course to the toilets flouts their right to dignity. immense warmth of the welcome given to the new In this country, as with all other state signatories, arrival by noble Lords on all sides and by the ever-helpful every child has the same rights as every other. I therefore officials who provide a kindly answer to every question. support Diabetes UK in some of its demands on the I am deeply grateful. Government. It wants diabetic children to be viewed Sir Lewis Namier, the great historian of the pre-1832 as vulnerable children. It wants the forthcoming child unreformed Parliament, once declared with playful health strategy to spell out how the Government will and light-hearted exaggeration that, ensure implementation of relevant policy in schools. “In the eighteenth century peers made their tutors under- This becomes particularly difficult when we have so secretaries; in the twentieth under-secretaries make their tutors many state-maintained independent academies, some peers”. of which will be primary schools. Being autonomous I wish that Namier was still around to make a merry makes them a little more difficult for the state to quip about the fact that in the 21st century a Prime control. That is the whole point of academies; they are Minister has elevated someone who acted as his political not controlled by the state. How will we ensure that tutor, if only in a minor respect. I stress the word they take adequate care of these vulnerable children? “minor” because my right honourable friend the Prime Perhaps the Minister will tell us. Minister, with his instinctive grasp of politics, needed little guidance as he passed through the Conservative Diabetes UK is calling for Ofsted to routinely inspect Research Department, which I helped to run in the whether schools have clear medication policies, but 1980s and 1990s. how can they do that when their remit is to be slimmed down to four planks? Which part of the Ofsted inspection The Conservative Research Department, now as will cover the health of children with long-term life- then, is refreshingly free from ideological fervour, as threatening diseases? The charity also asks for partnership every true Tory institution should be. That has enabled working between schools, local authorities and PCTs. it to supply recruits for the Labour, as well as the Tory, However, PCTs are being abolished, and academies Benches in this House. It nurtured the late Lord will not have such close relationships with local authorities Longford, and 30 years ago the Conservative Research as those of community schools. How will diabetic Department was adorned by the noble Lord, Lord children fare under these new regimes? I will be interested Howarth of Newport. Two former members who did in hearing from the Minister on this. not defect, my kind and noble friends Lord Cope of Berkeley and Lord Black of Brentwood, have guided It is a national disgrace that we have the highest my prentice steps in this House as my sponsors. number of children with diabetes in Europe and the lowest number attaining good control of blood sugar. I have lived my life thus far as Alistair Cooke. Long As we have heard, only some 20 per cent do. Questions shadows have fallen on me, cast first by the world-famous have to be asked about why we have such a large writer and broadcaster and now by a fine England number of children with diabetes, and I assume that batsman. Re-emerging as Lord Lexden, I am liberated for some of those children the answer lies in obesity from what could have been a lifetime’s sense of inferiority. and lack of exercise. What are the Government doing Lexden, on the outskirts of Colchester in Essex, to address childhood obesity and ensure that all children was where I was born and brought up. My father, a have the opportunity for enjoyable sport and other much loved GP for some 40 years, took a deep interest forms of exercise, such as dance and cheerleading, in the welfare of all children, but particularly of those which do not always have a competitive element? If we with diabetes. do not address these issues, we will store up health Lexden was the scene of a notable engagement problems and cost for the future, as the noble Lord, between the Roman invaders and the ancient Britons. Lord Kennedy of Southwark, said in his excellent Every day on my way to school, I passed the earthen GC 351 Education: Children with Diabetes[LORDS] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 352

[LORD LEXDEN] its title. To ensure that staff indeed know, governors defences that the Romans had overwhelmed before and heads need to establish and enforce arrangements making Colchester one of the principal centres of that are appropriate for their individual schools. In their power. This was the genesis of the historical this, they face a particularly urgent challenge that interests that have always mattered to me more than emerges in so many areas of school life today: to anything else. reverse the intense pressure that teachers have felt for One other place is never far from my thoughts: far too long to keep their distance from their pupils in Northern Ireland. I taught for some years at Queen’s case a close association is misunderstood. That simple, University in Belfast before becoming political adviser yet profound, factor has impeded progress in our to Airey Neave in 1977. At that time, Britain often school system. The Government have recently made gave the impression of wanting to wash its hands of clear their support for change to overturn this harmful Ulster altogether. Today there is a lesser, but still trend. That would do an immense service to children grave, danger: indifference. The Province has a devolved with diabetes who, along with others suffering from Government. Why not leave it entirely to its own serious health problems, need a close association with devices? I believe strongly that progress in Ulster will dedicated and sympathetic teachers. be greatly assisted if its affairs feature in a wider I hope that this important debate in the House will British context rather than being relegated entirely to assist the start of that urgently needed process. I am a purely local one. I hope to play a part in achieving very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of this. Southwark, who initiated this debate, for giving me this opportunity to address the House for the first time. The subject of today’s debate illustrates the point. The recent formation of an all-party diabetes group in 5.55 pm the Northern Ireland Assembly creates a new focus on the issue there, while the highly regarded national Baroness Young of Old Scone: My Lords, I congratulate organisation, Diabetes UK, embraces Northern Ireland the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on his dextrous maiden within its work. One complements the other. speech, which I suppose is an appropriate term for someone who bears the name of a batsman. He is of There are today some 20,000 children of school age course steeped in the history and politics of the in the United Kingdom with diabetes, of whom around Conservative variety. Before he came to your Lordships’ 1,000 live in Northern Ireland. During my time as House, he was instrumental in writing a history of general secretary of the Independent Schools Council, 175 years of the Carlton Club and 80 years of the in the course of which I visited many excellent Ulster Conservative Research Department. I am sure that his schools, such as the Royal Belfast Academical Institution historical perspective on politics will come in useful in and St Malachy’s College in Belfast, I had numerous these days of new experiments in government. As the opportunities to admire the resilience and determination noble Lord said, the Conservative Research Department with which such children strive to reach high standards was the cradle from which many illustrious Conservative and so lay the basis for success in their subsequent Members of your Lordships’ House and the other careers. I have always been greatly struck by the place cut their teeth. I thank the noble Lord on behalf indomitable spirit shown by children with diabetes as of your Lordships and on your behalf, if I may, wish they make their way through the various rounds of the him a fulfilling time in this House. Northern Ireland Schools Debating Competition, of which I have the honour to be president. I also thank the noble Lord for cutting his maiden teeth on an important issue regarding diabetes. I of Children with diabetes and their families have in course declare an interest, which has already been Diabetes UK a formidable champion of their interests. revealed by other noble Lords, in that I am the chief Naturally, its overall aim is to encourage all schools to executive of Diabetes UK. I thank the noble Lord, follow the practice of the best, where, every day, Lord Kennedy, for initiating this important debate children with diabetes enjoy a full school life because and for his kind words about Diabetes UK, and I they receive the support they need. But in some schools thank other noble Lords who have spoken and who there are undoubtedly problems to be overcome, as the will contribute on this heart-rending issue; 20,000 detailed surveys and inquiries conducted by Diabetes children under 15 have type 1 diabetes, another 1,400 UK show—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, have type 2 diabetes and an increasing number have referred graphically to them. Staff are sometimes reluctant both types. Noble Lords have given us many statistics to help with insulin injections, a point to which the noble and told heart-rending stories, and although many Baroness, Lady Walmsley, referred. That undoubtedly children every day enjoy a full school life, others adds to the great burden on families. In a Diabetes UK struggle with control of their condition, without having survey in 2009, 35 per cent of the young people who to deal with the other disadvantages that other noble responded said their parents either had to give up Lords have mentioned. work or reduce their hours of work to support them Every child with diabetes should be entitled to the with their diabetes in school. This is a matter of full opportunities of education and not be dependent particular concern to the Northern Ireland representatives on parents, many of whom, in these straitened times, of Diabetes UK. simply cannot afford to give up work. I want briefly to The problems could often be swiftly alleviated if add my voice to calls for what is needed to allow that schools followed the advice that Diabetes UK has to happen. There should, in particular, be an end to provided in its excellent publications. Perhaps the most inadequate and variable levels of funding for support important is the admirably succinct Children with Diabetes in schools. If statementing is inappropriate for these at School: What All Staff Need to Know.Itlivesupto children, what mechanism is? There needs to be more GC 353 Education: Children with Diabetes[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 354 access to diabetic teaching assistants and to proper happens in a family it affects the child and the parent education for teachers, and fellow pupils, to gain an or guardian, but also the wider family and the community. understanding of diabetes and other support that For the child in those days, when you had to do an pupils need from time to time. insulin injection with all the equipment that existed Can the Minister assure us that the Government then, it was a terrible business. These days we have will put clear and specific duties on schools and local wonderful insulin pens which you can get in many authorities to ensure continuity of care, in order that colours, and which at least look interesting when the children with diabetes can benefit from a proper education? child is with other school children. We need an end to the postcode lottery. I hope that The parent of a diabetic child is particularly affected, there is no more increased use of the phrase which because they have to work even harder. Parents are struck terror into my heart when I was in conversation always zealous to ensure that the education of their about the postcode lottery in healthcare—that this children is secured, but it means that they have to was “no longer a postcode lottery but postcode work out a balance within the family. There may be democracy”. I hope that the excuse of decisions being other children, a partner and so forth, and the wider made on a local basis is not used to support very family is also affected. I felt guilty that my nephew, a uneven standards of care and support for these children seven-year-old, had contracted diabetes, when I had in schools. I ask the Minister to ensure that all schools contracted it at the age of 21 just a few months earlier. be required to have a medical policy to define how I somehow felt that it was a responsibility of mine. Of they support the health needs of children with long-term course, it affects the wider community, which is why conditions; there are more than 1 million children the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out the effect with long-term conditions in schools. There needs to on schools receiving children who are diabetic. be clarity of responsibility for funding support for children with diabetes in school and an end to the I want to talk about something positive. Some two ping-pong between health and education authorities, or three years ago, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, which are both anxious to pass responsibility for might like to know, Diabetes UK put on an absolutely support for these children backwards and forwards. wonderful event in the House of Commons, which There needs to be clarity on who is responsible and brought together about 100 children with 100 carers to who can be held responsible. meet us as parliamentarians. I was exhilarated that day, and I felt absolutely humbled, not only to meet Ideally, we would like to see a full-time qualified these youngsters of seven, eight or nine, but also to nurse for each secondary school and for each cluster meet the parents. One of the things that I observed of primary schools to help support children with was that, for a change, the children were meeting other diabetes. Also, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, children who were in the same boat, and the mothers—and we need an individual healthcare plan for each child they were principally mothers—were meeting other that is prepared jointly between the child, the parents, mothers and carers. That is my great worry. That the doctors and the teachers, and regularly updated. occasion was thrilling, but so often within the school I hope the Minister can tell us how appropriate healthcare context the child, the carer or parent is isolated. We can be assured in educational settings, because it is not must redouble our efforts to remember that and to just about supporting these very vulnerable and often give further and greater help. heavily challenged children in their school lives. It is also about reducing long-term financial costs of the I refer to another event which the noble Lord, Lord condition to the NHS, reducing the adverse economic Hill, might like to find out a little more about. Two or costs and emotional impacts on families, and ensuring three years ago, a school from the West Country came that these children have a less tough time than they up to address parliamentarians in the House of Commons. currently do, as well as achieving physical and economic What was unique about the visitors was that they well-being later in life. brought all the children from a particular class who had grown up with children who developed diabetes during their school years. These children had a better 6pm understanding of diabetes because the school had Lord Harrison: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the made an effort to teach them about it. Their rallying noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for being our cheerleader round was thrilling and clearly provided a wonderful today in this debate. I congratulate the noble Lord, support service for those with diabetes. I do not know Lord Lexden, on his excellent maiden speech. Is he whether that school still exists and whether we can sure he is not a batsman with that maiden over? There find out more about it but their experience should be are moves to bring together the parliamentarians of replicated. For the children who were not diabetic it the four nations of the United Kingdom; in fact, I was not a burden; it contributed to their better think we propose to travel to Belfast to meet our understanding of treating people who are afflicted by colleagues there and perhaps learn more about what this disease. happens in Northern Ireland. Although I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, I congratulate Baroness Young of Old Scone, who has already been asked this question, I want to ask is clearly now well into the job of being executive him about the clarity of responsibility in placing specific director of Diabetes UK, and I declare an interest as duties on schools and local authorities through upcoming vice chair of the all-party group. legislation to ensure that there is support and continuity I contracted type 1 diabetes at the age of 21, and a of care at schools for diabetic children, as that is few months later my nephew, then aged seven, contracted crucial. There needs to be a thread running through type 1 diabetes. His mother is my sister. When that the legislation to provide that protection. We need to GC 355 Education: Children with Diabetes[LORDS] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 356

[LORD HARRISON] school. It is to our shame that that is not the experience end the current patchwork quilt of varied support up for a large and significant group of children with and down the country, and we also need sufficient and diabetes across the country. accessible funding to help all those who are involved in In the case studies, Matty’s mum said: looking after diabetic children. Again, schools, local authorities and health authorities need to work together. “Matty decided that he wanted school dinners this week. At We need to ensure that all schoolchildren with diabetes the end of last term I went in and saw the cook and the dinner lady and explained that he would need to go to the front of the can take part in all aspects of schooling. Never again queue. This morning he told me that he didn’t want school dinner must kids be excluded because of the misunderstandings because the dinner lady had told him off for walking to the front that exist. Would the Minister care to say something of the queue and made him wait until last.” about the possibility of having a full-time nurse in all Charlie’s mum said: secondary schools, or at least a full-time nurse in a cluster of primary schools? She—it normally is a “When Charlie started reception we had a major fight on our hands with the headmaster who expected Charlie to do all his “she”—can be crucial in spreading the news to teachers own blood testing, choose an appropriate snack and go and get it about looking out for the child who is diabetic and from the store cupboard – all at the age of 4 and only having been who perhaps is suffering a hypoglycaemic reaction, or diagnosed 4 months previously!” “hypo”. That needs to be better understood. In case we form the impression that the fault always We need better healthcare planning within schools. lies with the school or with the local authorities, the We need to ensure that each school has a medical next case study will put us right. I quote the case of policy for children with long-term medical conditions, Anthony: who I believe number something like 1 million in the “Unfortunately, when we had a meeting with the school and community.Each diabetic child should have an individual our DSN, (who we thought was there to support us) made and regularly updated healthcare plan with the matters worse. The DSN seemed to do her utmost to discourage involvement of the child, the parent and the doctor. the school from taking on procedures such as testing, her attitude Diabetes UK is rightly worried about the education being that schools should not have to take on such levels of care. and children’s Bill, which is coming up, in that it We were quite surprised and hurt at her attitude. It made us feel removes duties on schools to co-operate with local very much on our own in the pursuit of a good standard of care planning arrangements, which are so vital. The growth for a young child starting school”. of academies, where there is no direct link to local The obstacles were not just raised for families through authorities, fractures that important complementary PCTs in these case studies. In another study, the health approach. It is unclear from the Health and Social and safety officer told a teenage boy with diabetes at a Care Bill how schools fit in with the new framework. secondary school that he could not carry his insulin Perhaps the Minister could say more about that. and self-monitoring equipment with him at school. In the final minute or so available to me, I should This meant that if he felt unwell he would have to go a like to refer to something that the noble Baroness, considerable distance to the school’s reception area to Lady Young, may be able to take up in her role, carry out tests, which would have put him at risk. supported by the Government. I may be wrong but I Obviously, as my noble friend has said, there are am not aware that any of the school dramas on our children with diabetes who enjoy a full school life TV screens show diabetic children. More importantly, because of the support their school gives them. But if they do, I am not sure whether they show them as a the sad little stories from desperate parents that I have positive image, rather like my example of the quoted tell us that by no means all children have that schoolchildren supporting the members of their class opportunity in 21st-century Britain. Why does the who had diabetes. I wonder whether the noble Baroness Minister think that such inconsistency of policy and could explore that through her agency. It was done practice across local authorities exists, despite guidance recently with regard to someone with Parkinson’s disease. being offered by the last Government, and what are I recall a film which had a positive image, where the his Government’s plans for dealing with this inconsistency? heroine had acquired Parkinson’s at a very young age. I am certainly not making a political point here, There are interesting and inspiring stories to tell about because things could not have become so much worse this and we should take every opportunity to do so. for this group of children during the eight months of the coalition Government. We all have questions to 6.10 pm answer as far as these children are concerned. However, Baroness Crawley: My Lords, it is a delight to I am concerned by the scale of future local authority follow my noble friend Lord Harrison, who is such a spending cuts, as well as by the demise of PCTs and great ambassador for people living with diabetes. May the reorganisation of the NHS. Both these coalition I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Kennedy, for Government policy commitments will throw an already bringing this complex and important issue before the complex picture for children with diabetes into sharper House with such clarity and commitment? I also welcome relief in the future. the informative and humorous maiden speech of the How does the Minister respond to Diabetes UK’s noble Lord, Lord Lexden. We look forward to hearing concerns, shared by this side of the House, and mentioned many more of them in the House. by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that the changes In preparing for this afternoon’s debate, I looked at proposed in the education and children’s Bill, which the 2008 report of the UK Children with Diabetes will remove the duty of schools to co-operate with Advocacy Group. I found several case studies of children local planning arrangements, together with the growth who have type 1 diabetes but who, beyond that, should of academies with no direct link to a local authority, be leading happy, fulfilling and productive lives at risk further fragmentation of services for this group of GC 357 Education: Children with Diabetes[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Education: Children with Diabetes GC 358 children? It would be helpful to learn from the Minister here today. I think that I speak for all noble Lords in how schools are expected to fit into the new framework saying that we look forward to his contributions to envisaged in the Health and Social Care Bill. debates in the future. I know that the Minister, who I have a great deal of I shall briefly recap on some of the figures that we respect for, will agree with me that it is intolerable for have already heard and, in doing that, I welcome very parents and children who have this condition to be much the comments made by the noble Baroness, treated so differently in so many different schools, Lady Crawley, and the tone and way in which she different LAs and different PCTs, under different head approached this issue. This is not a political issue, and teachers, by different nurses and different staff. These the approach and the legislative framework taken by children and young people do not deserve such a cruel the Government follows the one taken by the previous lottery of treatment in their schooling. We know that Government. all schools have a common-law duty of care. They also have a duty to promote pupils’ well-being. What does We have heard some of the figures showing the the Minister feel is current legal framework for ensuring scale of the problem. There was an audit in 2009, school support? I know that under the previous which showed that there are an estimated 23,000 children Government’s Every Child Matters policy, of which I with diabetes, the vast majority with type 1. The peak am immensely proud, all schools were required to have age for diagnosis is between 10 and 14 years, but type 1 a disability equality scheme. Does the Minister believe can affect children in their preschool years. No one that further guidance is required? would want a child with a long-term medical condition What is the Government’s response to Diabetes such as diabetes to miss out on school life or be treated UK’s recommendations? They are ably set out by the less favourably because of it. We have heard a number noble Baroness, Lady Young: that there should be of powerful examples and personal testimony that multi-agency working across schools; that there should make that point. be proper training for staff in schools, to feel confident It is also true—and this lay behind some of the when dealing with children with diabetes; that there remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison—that should be an individual healthcare plan for every there are many examples where schools provide very pupil; and that there should be one full-time qualified good support to pupils, especially in primary schools, school nurse for each secondary school and cluster of where they are working closely with parents and the primary schools, as noble Lords have said. local NHS. There is one example in Nottinghamshire, I would be happy for the Minister to write to me on which other noble Lords may also know, where the some of these points. As I have said, our own record in county and city councils and the local NHS trusts run this area is not so burnished that I demand answers training for school staff. They allow heads to apply for from him. I know that all noble Lords who have taken reimbursement towards funding staff, and run a network part in this important debate will want to see an end to of diabetes specialist nurses to cover primaries and the confusion, alienation and misery that too many secondaries. So there is good practice, and one issue children with diabetes and their carers are currently that we need to reflect on is how we can make that experiencing. good practice more universal. I accept the point made by a number of noble Lords that provision is currently 6.17 pm patchy. We know that there are cases in which parents do not feel—and not only do they not feel it but it is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for obviously true—that they get the support that they Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My Lords, like other need. We heard today of children with diabetes having noble Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord to miss classes or be excluded from school trips or Kennedy of Southwark, on securing a debate on this being left to inject themselves unsupervised, with parents important issue. We have already heard a significant feeling that they are forced to reduce hours or give up number of points that the Government will need to work or move schools because they do not trust reflect on. I pay tribute to the work that he has done, staff to carry out blood tests or carry out insulin both here in Parliament and as a member of Diabetes injections. UK, to raise awareness of the problems that diabetes sufferers endure. I was glad to have the chance in the I acknowledge the picture that has been painted by small hours of the morning last week to discuss some Diabetes UK in its report, State of Diabetes Care in of the issues that he has raised; it was one of the few the UK 2009. While there is excellent practice out benefits that I could see of the Parliamentary Voting there, in other areas it is patchy. I also understand the System and Constituencies Bill, but we must be grateful strength of feeling behind its Children’s Charter report. for small mercies. It is a view that has been expressed by noble Lords today and by my noble friend Lady Walmsley, in I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble looking at it from an international perspective. There friend Lord Lexden on his excellent and entertaining should be equal access to treatment, high-quality medical maiden speech. I could not work out where I sit on his care and support in schools for children and young Lewis Namier scale—probably somewhere near the people. bottom. It was my noble friend who offered me a job at the Conservative Research Department after I had I shall briefly summarise the legal framework and been turned down by a number of no doubt wiser then move on to talk about some of the other issues people in the CRD. So it was he, perhaps inadvertently, raised and address directly the request put to me by who set me on my way, and whom indirectly I should the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, about thank—or blame, I sometimes think—for my being meeting and how we might take things forward. GC 359 Education: Children with Diabetes[LORDS] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 360

[LORD HILL OF OAREFORD] I reassure noble Lords that we are listening to the Schools are responsible for drawing up their own concerns that have been raised and are working closely policies in the light of their statutory responsibilities—for with the Department of Health to ensure that no child example, health and safety legislation or the Equality misses out because of their long-term medical condition. Act 2010—and local needs. The department recommends We are also working closely with the department to that schools and their employers should have policies enable schools to draw on additional expertise from in place on the management of pupils’ medicines and local health professionals and children’s services to on supporting pupils with medical needs. There is no meet the needs of their pupils. We seek in particular to legal duty on school staff to provide medical support, develop a new vision for school nurses that reflects to administer medication or to supervise a pupil taking their broad public health role in the school community. it. Like the last Government, we do not have plans to I would again invite Diabetes UK to talk to the change that. However, as has been pointed out, there Department of Health about this work. is a common-law duty on all staff to act in loco Perhaps I may respond to some of the specific parentis when children are at school. issues that were raised. I will write to the noble Baroness, To encourage schools to provide support for children Lady Crawley, if I have failed to respond to all her with medical needs, the DCSF as it then was, jointly points. I was asked about academies. It is the case that with the Department of Health, published guidance academies have to meet independent schools standards on managing medicines in schools and early years regulations. They require them to have regard to the settings back in March 2005. The DFE, together with Department for Education guidance, Health and Safety: the Department of Health, is currently reviewing that Responsibilities and Powers, which sets out the key guidance. Perhaps that provides us with an opportunity elements of a health and safety policy, one of which is to reflect on some of the points that have been raised. supporting pupils with medical needs. Having visited a I invite Diabetes UK, perhaps through the noble Lord lot of academies, I do not think that there is any or through the noble Baroness, Lady Young—I am intrinsic reason to believe that they will carry this out spoilt for choice—to speak to my officials about that. less well than any other school. Heads of academies We also hope that we can use the review as an opportunity who I have met care about their children just as much to draw attention to good practice. Again, I hope that as the heads of any other school. Academies are free Diabetes UK can help us to champion that good to buy back services from a local authority. practice. I was asked by my noble friend Lady Walmsley about competitive sport. PE remains compulsory from It is sensible for schools to have clear general policies the age of five to 16. The Government are keen to in place to support pupils with medical needs. For encourage competitive sport. I agree with her that it pupils with serious medical needs, it is sensible for can play an important part in dealing with the issues. I schools to draw up individual healthcare plans setting am very happy to discuss with her further the slimmed- out in black and white the level of support that is down Ofsted regime. Of the four categories that we needed, and clarifying for staff, parents and pupils the have outlined, one is to do with behaviour and safety. help that will be provided. Our guidance makes it clear that any volunteers, usually school support staff, who In response to questions about funding and as carry out such duties on a daily basis, should be noble Lords might expect, there is little specific that I properly supported in doing so. can say, but I was struck by the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, who said Staff who volunteer to assist with any form of that this not a matter primarily of money and that it is medical procedure should be given reassurance that much more to do with finding ways of working sensibly they will not be sued for any action they take in together. providing the vital support that pupils with medical Like, I think, all noble Lords, the Government are needs may require. We know, once they understand committed to ensuring that all children and young the reasons for the injections and blood tests, and have people with long-term medical conditions get the help been adequately trained in practical skills and provided and support that they need while at school. We will with reassurance, that they are acting within the scope work closely with the Department of Health to ensure of their employment, they are generally keen to help that. I would be delighted to meet the noble Lord, individual children. Lord Kennedy, to discuss this further or perhaps to As has already been discussed, the Government are point him towards my honourable friend Sarah Teather, reforming the way in which the NHS deals with public who has departmental responsibility for these matters. health—in particular, how it works with local children’s I am grateful to him, as are all other noble Lords, for services. The White Paper, Healthy Lives, Healthy giving us the opportunity to debate these important People, published last November, has a clear principle issues. at its heart: that prevention is better than cure. It sets out a clear plan to reduce health inequalities and Railways: Heritage Sector causes of premature death and illness. Question That means making sure that there is a major role for the NHS, particularly for school nurses and community 6.32 pm healthcare teams as well as paediatric diabetes specialist nurses. School nurses will continue to have a vital role Asked By Lord Faulkner of Worcester in providing training and support to schools, in developing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what health reviews at school entry and in managing pupils’ contribution the railway heritage sector makes to well-being and medical and long-term conditions. education, tourism and the regional economy. GC 361 Railways: Heritage Sector[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 362

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I am grateful The value to tourism is enormous. The National for the opportunity to draw attention to the importance Railway Museum attracts almost a million visitors of heritage railways in Britain and I thank all noble annually, more than any other museum in England Lords who have put their names down to speak in this outside London. Heritage railways attract more support short debate. I declare an unpaid interest as president-elect than almost any other part of the heritage sector, with of the Heritage Railway Association, a volunteer body the exception of the National Trust. While historic that brings together the heritage railways in the United ships, aircraft and classic cars have their adherents, no Kingdom and Eire. I have also recently been appointed other transport mode attracts anything like this level by the Prime Minister to the board of trustees of the of interest, with direct benefit to the tourist economy. National Museum of Science and Industry and shall This has been confirmed in independent studies be serving on the advisory board of the National undertaken for a number of lines, notably the West Railway Museum. Somerset, Severn Valley and Welsh Highland railways. The heritage railway movement covers over I think that we may hear something about the Welsh 111 working heritage railways and tramways, as well Highland Railway from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. as 60 steam museum sites. Indeed, laid end to end, our The West Somerset study was undertaken by Manchester heritage railways would stretch for some 500 miles, Metropolitan University and indicated a value of £1.90 to reaching from King’s Cross to Dalwhinnie in the the local economy from every £1 of fare income to the Highlands of Scotland. There are over 399 stations on railway. This means that the value of the railway is at these lines—more than on the Underground network— least £4 million to the local economy. I say “at least” and there is a fleet of around 800 preserved steam because this excludes the considerable spend by volunteers locomotives. on accommodation, food, fuel, restaurants and so on. Apart from the preserved lines, steam is still alive These are significant sums of money.Each year, 6.7 million and well and earning money on the national network, people are carried on heritage railways, whose earnings too, with many steam excursion trains being run each in 2009 amounted to £81 million. Not only does this year, as well as regular services on the West Highland point to a value of over £150 million a year to the line, the Cambrian coast line and between York and economy, but it is a figure that is growing year by year Scarborough. I pay particular tribute to the work of as lines are extended. the specialist team at Network Rail as well as the train The other major economic benefit of heritage railways operators who co-operate to make this possible. As a is in employment. Altogether almost 2,000 people number of noble Lords may be aware, in the past few work in the sector, some part-time, and often in areas years a brand new A3 steam locomotive called “Tornado” of high unemployment—heritage railways frequently has been built by volunteers to the original LNER provide high-quality engineering jobs in areas where design. That is in revenue service as well. little alternative skilled work is available. I should also mention the value of the work of the Railway Heritage Committee in designating historic Then there are the health benefits of providing easy railway artefacts and directing their disposal, when no access for walking, as well as the environmental benefits longer required on the main line, to heritage railways of car-free access to the countryside. While most railways or museums. This approach has been actively supported offer a steam-train ride as their main attraction, an by Network Rail, the train operating companies and increasing number also fulfil a useful transport role. the rolling stock leasing companies. As a result of The Swanage Railway, for example, provides a park- their working harmoniously together, people can see and-ride service to reduce congestion on the A351 and appreciate many of these historic pieces of equipment through the picturesque village of Corfe Castle. The in daily use. Welsh Highland Railway provides sustainable transport to sensitive areas in the Snowdonia National Park, The status and role of the Railway Heritage Committee particularly the village of Beddgelert. Also, what better is about to change as a result of the Government’s way is there to visit the Brontë Parsonage Museum at decision to include it in the Public Bodies Bill. I shall Haworth than by the Keighley and WorthValley Railway? not anticipate the debate that we are due to have in Committee on that Bill, other than to say that we are We may add to this the benefits to education that very close indeed to agreeing a way forward that are offered by many railways, with their information would provide for the statutory powers and duties of packs for schools linked to the curriculum, as well as the committee to be transferred to the Science Museum. visits to depots and signal boxes. The range of subjects covered by the railway is wide-ranging: history, of Your Lordships may ask why all this matters. The course, as well as geography, economics, social history main answer is that heritage railways give a huge boost and politics. Indeed, there is almost no area of life in to the local economies of the areas that they serve and Britain that is not touched by the railway. It was that we lead Europe and America in the development Benjamin Disraeli—or the Earl of Beaconsfield, as and presentation of our heritage railways. They are a perhaps we should call him in your Lordships’ House— source of inward tourism as well. To underline the who, writing in his novel Sybil in 1845, correctly point, the Heritage Railway Association took the lead predicted that, in establishing a federation of heritage railways across Europe, called FEDECRAIL. Our expertise is keenly “the railways will do as much for mankind as the monasteries sought by other members, particularly in . did”. Those members also look with envy at the statutory None of the achievements of today’s heritage railway powers exercised by the Railway Heritage Committee movement would be possible without the support of and wish that they had something similar in their volunteers, of whom more than 17,632 are recorded in countries. the returns made annually to the Office of Rail Regulation, GC 363 Railways: Heritage Sector[LORDS] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 364

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] I have been on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway quite apart from those who help in other ways such as to Whitby this year and on the Bluebell Line. Anyone fundraising. The range of activities that they undertake visiting railways such as these will immediately pick is astonishing, from safety-critical work such as driving up the tremendous enthusiasm of people who visit the trains or signalling, to developing specialist skills for sites. It is difficult to imagine a more attractive site to locomotive restoration, to straightforward labouring visit than the development of a model railway. We to keep the railways in good shape and safe for passengers. hope that some of these railways—the noble Lord What better example—and I address this point to mentioned the railway to Swanage—will shortly be the Government particularly—of the big society at connected to the main line, as is the Bluebell Railway. work could there be than a heritage railway, with Then there will be the question of interworking with volunteers working alongside paid staff, bringing a the main line, which many of us are sure will happen. boost to the local economy and a range of societal In the discussions that we are to have on the Railway benefits without recourse to the taxpayer? The level of Heritage Trust, it is important to ensure, first, that the volunteer input means that heritage railways run without artefacts that have been preserved so conscientiously subsidy and raise their own capital. A number have in the past are transferred—if they have to be also been successful in securing Heritage Lottery Fund transferred—to a body that will take the matter very grants. seriously. Secondly, we would like to be assured that Some people find it hard to understand why there is the cost of the transfer is cheaper than what we have such a high level of interest in railways and railway now. I am pleased to hear the noble Lord say that he is heritage among British people—an interest increasingly hopeful of an arrangement with the National Railway shared by many overseas visitors. Go to any bookstall Museum. That will be a relief to me, because I expected and you will see a huge range of magazines and to be told that the matter would be dealt with in periodicals devoted to this subject. I have seen a total Marsham Street, which would stop the collection of of 16 magazines about railways or model railways in heritage artefacts for some years to come. my travels and I understand that these have a combined We fully support what has been said, all of which circulation of around 360,000. When we add in the has been true. I think that the heritage railways deserve electronic magazines and the fact that magazines are our fullest support. handed on to friends, we have a regular railway readership of about a million. 6.45 pm My theory is that this interest—I hesitate to call it Lord Berkeley: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure an obsession—reflects genuine pride in the fact that to participate in this debate. First, I congratulate my railways were a British invention and the source of a noble friend Lord Faulkner on the dedication that he dominant export industry for over a century. They shows to the heritage sector, which is absolutely vital. contributed enormously to the 19th-century Industrial I am pleased to hear that he is going to be involved in Revolution. They transformed people’s lives, making all the various committees and is actively negotiating it possible for them to live in the countryside and some continuity for the heritage sector in order to travel into towns and cities to work. They were responsible preserve our industrial heritage, rather as the National for creating most of Britain’s seaside resorts and enabled Trust and English Heritage do for our old buildings working people to go on holiday. and landscape. They may have to end up owning half Even today, the influence of Britain’s railways the forests in this country if one believes the press worldwide cannot be overstated. Railways have been comments at the weekend. However, I return to the regulated and given special powers by government subject of the railways. throughout history and their significance in people’s The heritage railways are still part of the national lives, whether or not they are regular users, means that railway structure. They have the potential to—and they have a very high profile and raise strong views. sometimes do—fulfil a very useful role in moving Many railway staff are proud of the industry’s people around, whether for shopping or getting to heritage, which plays some part in their motivation. It school. They do so effectively and reliably, and I think is perhaps for all these reasons that from 1947 onwards we will miss something if that does not continue. the Government have considered it necessary to legislate When I worked in Folkestone years ago, I noticed that to protect Britain’s railway heritage, which has been the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway—which, actively supported by the industry, from the days of as a narrow-gauge railway, is quite long—used to run the British Transport Commission to today’s rail a school service, taking kids to school every morning companies. I hope that when replying to this debate and bringing them back in the evening, and many the noble Earl the Minister will acknowledge this other railways do that. In that respect, it is interesting uniquely British success story and confirm that the to compare the heritage railways with Network Rail’s Government will continue to encourage its progress branch lines. The All-Party Parliamentary Rail Group and development. had a meeting last night with Sir Roy McNulty, who is carrying out a cost-reduction study for the Department for Transport. I told him that I hoped he was not 6.43 pm going to start cutting Network Rail’s branch lines due Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, although I spent most to the cost. Network Rail started off a year or two ago of my working life on the railway, I did not collect by saying that the freight-only lines cost £100 million a engine numbers and I have no anorak to show for it. year. However, it could not provide any evidence for However, I believe that the economic arguments that that and we ended up with a figure of £10 million, so the noble Lord has put forward are very sound. something was slightly wrong with the estimation. GC 365 Railways: Heritage Sector[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 366

The Network Rail branch lines and heritage lines I should declare an interest. I am president of the have one thing in common. There’s a very cheap way National Library of Wales, in Aberystwyth, where we of running light trains on them which could provide have a major collection of railway-related items, including the service that I was just talking about. That is the Henry Robertson collection, which is a major something like the Parry people mover. It is like a tram collection of railway plans and sections in north-east but it runs on the main line. It has been operating Wales from between 1842 and 1888. The collection is between Stourbridge Junction and Stourbridge Town worth seeing, and includes plans used in the parliamentary extremely reliably—with a reliability rate of, I think, process, with original manuscript drawings of the 99 per cent—since it has been going. During the recent track layouts, bridges and buildings. There are some cold weather, it operated much more reliably than the 12,000 items in that collection. The National Library mainline trains. However, I foresee opposition to its has held day schools on these subjects for the Welsh use coming from the main railway people, the passenger Railways Research Circle. We have more than 2,000 operators and Network Rail. I often detect a similar photographs dealing with railways in the National reluctance on the part of some of the heritage lines to Library and a number of paintings. In fact, one of the accept something like this to provide a service when paintings is of the Friog Cutting accident in 1883 and they do not want to run steam trains or anything else; is a unique item. There is a very warm welcome to be in other words, rather than run a daily service, they had there. There is a tremendous collection, which of would prefer to keep the line doing nothing other than itself is part of the railway heritage. I hope it will be running a steam train on a Saturday. seen as such. I know that costs are involved but I hope that, as we move forward in the various debates on our railway 6.52 pm heritage, we will try to see whether some of the issues Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I thank my noble facing not only the heritage lines but the Network Rail friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester for securing this branch lines can be tackled, along with the problem of debate. I shall not detain the Committee for long, but getting a connection between the two without spending this is an important debate at an important time, when an enormous amount of money on consultants’ fees. we debate other matters in this House. I pay tribute to We should see whether we can use this wonderful piece the Railway Heritage Committee and the work that of infrastructure that is all around the country for the my noble friend is doing to secure its future during the benefit of those who live locally. I see it as part of the passage of the Public Bodies Bill. I wish him all localism agenda. success in that. 6.50 pm As a tourist in the UK, I have had many pleasurable journeys on railways with my wife Alicia, after introducing Lord Wigley: My Lords, I am delighted that the her to the heritage railway sector some years ago noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, was able to before we were married. I had the pleasure of travelling bring this subject before us. There are five of Wales’ on the narrow-gauge Ffestiniog Railway some years little trains in my home area, including the Welsh ago, and only last summer I travelled on the steam Highland Railway, the Ffestiniog Railway and the railway in Antrim, Northern Ireland. Snowdon Mountain Railway, which provide major What is striking about all these journeys is the inputs into the local economy. enjoyment to be had and the variety of people who are A study in 2009 undertaken in Bangor University—I travelling—including teenagers, young couples, children have the honour of chairing the advisory board of the with their parents and grandparents, and people from Bangor Business School—showed that some £9 million all over the world. I concur with the comments of the a year is already coming into the local economy, and noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, in this respect. As my the amount is likely to increase to about £12 million. noble friend Lord Faulkner said, these railways boost About 250,000 visitors a year use the lines, which are the local economy by supporting the hotel and restaurant also used by a lot of local people. This half term it will sectors and other parts of the local tourism industry. be possible to travel by steam from Caernarvon to Porthmadog and back. It is a tremendous journey, I agree very much with the comments of my noble through Beddgelert and the Aberglaslyn Pass, where friend Lord Berkeley, who is well known for his expertise you experience a vista that you cannot see when you in the transport sector as a whole. His knowledge of travel by road or drive. This is an important part of and support for the heritage sector are evident. I our economy. concur with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. Some of my earliest memories as a child are of My maternal great-grandfather came to the area as getting on the boat train from Euston to Holyhead on a railwayman, and I am therefore part of the heritage, our regular family holidays to Dublin in the Republic I suppose. The impact of the railways on my area has of Ireland. generally been enormous since the 19th century. One thinks of the difference they made to places such as 6.53 pm Llandudno, Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Without the railways, those towns would not have grown. Would The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, heritage is Holyhead be there, had it not been for the main line the evidence of the past. The moment I decided that I across Anglesey? The railways brought dramatic views— was going to be seriously interested in 12-inches-to-the- the Menai Bridge, the Froncysyllte viaduct and so on. foot-scale railways was probably when I was aged 14 Even where railways have stopped operating, we are and a Gresley J38 crossed the Grange Road level lucky enough to have some cycle tracks, which elsewhere crossing in the west of Alloa. That became impossible— often live side by side with the small trains. first, because we failed to preserve any of the Gresley GC 367 Railways: Heritage Sector[LORDS] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 368

[THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIE] he was a heritage enthusiast. So far, the restored J38s, and, secondly, because the railway disappeared railway runs for only two or three kilometres. It has from Alloa for 38 years. However, the railway has two, wood-fired steam locomotives, originally built in returned. It is now served by ScotRail and is proving Scotland and shipped out there. It also has several to be a success of a considerable order. I shall not go restored carriages. There is a workshop in Sapucay, 30 on too much about that, because clearly that is not kilometres by road from Asunción, which is probably what this debate is about. the last wood-fired steam locomotive workshop in the Like stamp-collecting, an interest in the railways world. Nearby is the English village where the workforce teaches people a lot about geography and probably lived and which has huge historical and architectural economics, and causes them to travel. A huge number value. This is a remarkable story. The noble Lord, of books and DVDs are published. You can build up Lord Faulkner, would be very wise to visit the railway the historical identity of your locality. For example, when he next travels in that part of the world, as I the Alloa Waggonway, which existed from 1761 to know he has visited the heritage railway in Tierra del 1929, was the first place at which iron was used for the Fuego in the very south of the continent. He might rails. Curiously enough, there was a failure with wooden also like to take in Antofagasta, at the start of the rails. They experimented with putting metal on top of Antofagasta-Bolivia railway of which I was 30 years the wood, but that did not work. Alloa probably has ago chairman and which runs up to Bolivia. It is a the earliest of all the railways. commercial railway, but it also has a museum with a lot of old locomotives. I am glad to say that I played Interest in the railways is multigenerational, which some part during my brief chairmanship in making is in itself extremely useful. I have already mentioned sure that that was established and properly run. our failure to preserve a Gresley J38, which is probably not as important as the failure to preserve one of the This debate is an opportunity. I congratulate the Peppercorn A1s, or allowing the “Duke of Gloucester” noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, on his splendid endeavours. to deteriorate to the point where its rescue was remarkable. It has been very interesting to someone also interested 7pm in the built heritage how the A1 steam trust went Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I, too, about raising the money, not relying on large grants— express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, although there were certainly generous donations—but for providing us with this very useful debate today. I by going out to build a class 8 locomotive based on the declare an interest as one of the numerous vice-patrons price of a pint. That meant people giving £5 a month. of the Bluebell Railway, which is endeavouring to raise I am one of the late joiners at number 2,440, but I funds in its 50th jubilee year. I believe that I have one know that people giving between £5 and £10 a month or two colleagues in the House who are also vice-patrons. to the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust means that it has a monthly income of £10,000, which is quite remarkable. Like the noble Lord, I think that heritage railways, I must admit, looking at what is happening to the particularly the Bluebell Railway on which I shall locomotive “Tornado” at present, it is just as well that speak, epitomise all that one looks for in the big people are giving money in those quantities. It is society as it is currently described. Last year, for certainly morale-building when something like “Tornado” example, the Bluebell was granted the prestigious Queen’s comes to a preservation railway.Interest in it undoubtedly Award for Voluntary Service. While it has a calibre of creates increased attendance. full-time employees, its mainstay is volunteers. Nearly 600 of them keep the organisation running and have There is a question in my mind as to whether the done so for more than 50 years. Last year, the Bluebell steam preservation movement should create the locomotive line carried 187,000 passengers, including my noble of the future—the steam turbine electric. We will see friend. It is a good employer, a great tourist attraction whether the movement can support that. and a great educator, not just for Sussex, where I reside, but also for the UK; people come from overseas 6.58 pm to visit our steam trains. It had a turnover last year of more than £3 million. In addition to that, as others Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, my have described, there is a wider benefit to the local thanks are also due to the noble Lord Faulkner, for communities as people come in to see the railway. introducing this debate. He is a dedicated heritage railway man and very knowledgeable. I propose to go As well as providing full-time employment for staff, on a slight diversion and take you briefly on a journey it currently offers more than 40 full-time apprenticeships to Paraguay—a little visited, fascinating, landlocked in its carriage, wagon and locomotive works, which are country in the middle of South America. not only maintaining the old skills that are required but, with the use of technology, moving into new areas In 1861, the Paraguay central railway, which was and developing new engineering skills. built, run and owned by the British, started construction. It was completed in 1911 with 376 kilometres of track The trust has very ambitious plans for growth. Of between Asunción and Encarnación, where it crossed particular importance, it is now working on a northern the great Paraná River and joined up with Argentine line extension project that will link into East Grinstead railways. The British continued to run it until 1959, and the national rail network. That gives the opportunity when it was nationalised by President Stroessner and to talk about some of the issues which the noble Lord, gradually fell into disuse until the restoration of Lord Berkeley, mentioned. democracy.It was then privatised in 1999, when Dr Lauro There is a final obstacle to be overcome: the removal Ramirez took charge and created a plan for the restoration of thousands of tonnes of household waste that were of the railway as a major tourist attraction. Fortunately, tipped into the Imberhorne cutting on the outskirts of GC 369 Railways: Heritage Sector[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 370

East Grinstead. The work is costing well over £2 million. My noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester has There is urgency to the task, as our exemption from given the facts and figures on the considerable contribution land tax charges unfortunately expires on 31 March being made by heritage railways to the economy— 2012. If the waste is not moved by then, we will face frequently, as he said, in areas where jobs are at a very high costs arising from the landfill tax. After premium and the local economy needs every boost it April 2012, the costs will triple, with an extra £64 for can get. However, the attraction of our heritage railways each tonne taken out. Indeed, if it is not cleared before goes deeper than that. Heritage railways have to meet 2014, the cost will go up to £80 per tonne, which is an the tough operating and safety standards of the Office extra cost on top of the expenditure that I have just of Rail Regulation before they can carry any passengers. described. These costs are being driven by government They are real railways and working railways, not static changes to the landfill tax. museum pieces with no life and character of their The Bluebell Railway is a charity and many of our own. They are the living embodiment of railway life volunteers are having a problem with the cost of and the railway experience in the era when steam was providing fuel for their cars, which affects the numbers supreme. That is why they attract the interest, involvement who turn up. We are also having problems with the and commitment of so many volunteers and enthusiasts local authorities, which are suffering expenditure cuts, in restoring, maintaining and operating steam locomotives and that is also a concern for us. We are therefore and formerly closed passenger lines, and it is why they looking for donors. attract, to the economic advantage of the local As the train is ahead of schedule, I shall take an communities concerned, the patronage of so many extra minute to make an appeal for donors, in the passengers—mainly tourists—who want to sample or hope that people will be prepared to put themselves remember the age of steam and the early days of diesel forward. In terms of the big society, we are looking to traction. It is a passion and an interest widely shared. individuals and groups, but I also make an appeal to Indeed, my 60th birthday present from my family was bigger organisations. The Bluebell Railway line will a couple of hours on a heritage railway in Derbyshire end at East Grinstead, adjacent to a big Sainsbury’s driving a steam locomotive up and down the line—under store. Sainsbury’s will gain considerable benefit from strict supervision, I hasten to add, and not with any having this heritage railway running alongside its store. passengers. It was a fascinating experience and something As we have not been able to persuade a large company that I had always wanted to do. to make a very helpful donation towards what we are As a nation, we are proud of our history and of our endeavouring to do, perhaps I may appeal to the noble past, and we are prepared to invest our time, our Earl. In spite of all the problems that he has, perhaps energies and our money in ensuring that that history is he could have a helpful word in the right quarters with preserved and valued. Our railways are an important some of the bigger organisations around East Grinstead, part of that history, and the great strength of the which so far have not pulled as much weight as we growing and expanding railway heritage sector is that would have wished, and that might help in getting the it truly achieves that objective of preserving and valuing rest of that household waste out of the cutting. I look our memorable and nation-changing railway history. forward with great interest to a response on that. Even more importantly, though, the sector does that in a way that, as the now heritage railways did when 7.06 pm they first opened so many years ago, strengthens and develops the economies of the communities that it Lord Rosser: My Lords, I, too, congratulate my serves, by attracting large numbers of visitors and noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester on securing tourists and creating jobs, as well as now providing the this debate, which has attracted many fascinating younger generation with a living insight into life in a contributions. My noble friend is an active and committed previous era. supporter—indeed, leader—of the heritage railway I am confident that, like us, the Minister also recognises movement. I know of his dismay when he found out the importance of the contribution of the railway the potentially devastating implications for the work—past, heritage sector, and I look forward to this being reflected present and future—of the Railway Heritage Committee, in his reply to this debate. having discovered that it had been included in the dreaded schedules to the Public Bodies Bill. My noble friend has since campaigned tirelessly behind the scenes 7.10 pm to ensure not the continuation of the committee in its Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble present form and relationships but the continuation of Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for introducing the vital statutory role and functions that the committee this enjoyable and fascinating Question for Short Debate. currently undertakes to protect our railway heritage. He did so with his usual eloquence. I, too, am a It is clear from my noble friend’s comments today preservationist, but I get involved with classic military that substantial progress has been made, one hopes, and commercial vehicles. Nevertheless, I well understand towards achieving that goal. I understand that the the motivation, and I frequently visit preserved railways. noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, and the noble This is a good time to be debating this matter. Sixty Earl, Lord Attlee, are—how shall we put it?—not years ago, a group of amateur railway enthusiasts was exactly hindering my noble friend Lord Faulkner of given control of the Talyllyn Railway in mid-Wales, a Worcester in seeking to achieve his worthy and honourable statutory railway company, and on 14 May 1951 they objective. If I have judged the situation correctly, then achieved a world first—the operation of the first public I congratulate the two noble Lords concerned for the passenger train of the preservation era. At the time, good that they, too, have done, and are doing, on this many doubted whether the venture would succeed, but issue. it did, and since then the heritage railway sector has GC 371 Railways: Heritage Sector[LORDS] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 372

[EARL ATTLEE] This is not mere conjecture. For example, academic prospered, not only in Great Britain but right around research in 2008 on the local contribution of the the world, as the noble Viscount has told us. It is Ffestiniog Railway showed a total economic impact important to understand that the heritage railway on Gwynedd of between £8 million and £9 million per sector’s prosperity is entirely a product of private, annum, with between 334 and 375 full-time posts individual enterprise and initiative, independent of supported in the region. Thus, the total benefit to any involvement of the Government, which is limited Gwynedd was estimated at £15 million a year. In to essential safety regulation. England, the East Lancashire Railway Trust has estimated Indeed, for Tom Rolt, the distinguished author and that the railway yields total regional gross value added one of the founders of the Talyllyn Railway Preservation of £1.6 million and supports around 70 direct, indirect Society, the venture was a small but significant move or induced jobs in the local community. against what he saw as the prevailing trends of the The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about making time of creeping state control of people’s lives and the full use of the heritage railways infrastructure. Heritage increasing uniformity of our industrial processes. In a railways provide other benefits too. The West Somerset real sense, the railway preservation movement was an Railway has recently been running freight trains, delivering early flowering of what we now call the big society, a stone from the Mendips for coastal defence work and point made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and keeping heavy lorries off the Somerset roads. The touched on by another noble Lord as well. heavy engineering workshops that these railways often have to establish provide a valuable engineering capability That is all the more remarkable when we consider for the wider community. the scale of the task facing railway preservationists. To give just one example, the pioneering Talyllyn was still I should also mention the Government’s role in using its original track and rolling stock, which were safety regulation. The heritage railway sector voiced 85 years old when the preservationists took over, presenting concerns that changes to the safety regime might them with the pressing need for expensive renewals. prove to be disproportionately burdensome to its The heavy engineering task is no less awesome today. operations, prior to the introduction of those changes in 2006. Through discussion with the department, the To emphasise individual achievement is not to say sector was able to agree the final implementation that the Government are uninterested in railway heritage. timetable for those changes, which included an additional Through the Department for Culture, Media and Sport six months’ preparation period prior to their application we sponsor the National Railway Museum, the largest to non-mainline railways, during which the safety in the world. In 2011-12, the department is funding regulator provided operators with additional support the National Museum of Science and Industry, of and guidance. which the NRM is a major part, to the tune of Accessibility has been another regulatory issue affecting £37 million. Of course, all noble Lords are delighted heritage railways. We know that the sector takes to hear of the new appointment of the noble Lord, accessibility seriously, but the department recognised Lord Faulkner. The Department for Transport currently that it would not be desirable to destroy the very sponsors the Railway Heritage Committee, of which nostalgic atmosphere that passengers, including those more later. with disabilities, wished to experience, by making old I turn to the subject of the debate. Let us first carriages fully accessible. Therefore, Parliament agreed consider the sector’s contribution to education. Heritage last year to exempt, by order, all pre-1999 vehicles on railways provide living museums, enabling the younger heritage and tourist networks from accessibility generation to learn an important aspect of social, requirements in perpetuity. economic and engineering history at first hand. To I promised earlier to return to the Railway Heritage give just one example, the Sittingbourne and Kemsley Committee. Last October, the Government announced Railway in Kent provides educational visits for schools our decision in principle to abolish the committee, and and has recently appointed an education officer who is the committee has been listed in Schedule 1 to the currently working to provide material relevant to the Public Bodies Bill to facilitate that change. The noble curriculum. It has developed an association with a Lord, Lord Faulkner, has proposed a transfer of the local scout group to provide interesting and useful committee’s power of designation to another body—for railway-based activities in which group members from example, the board of trustees of the Science Museum, different age groups can participate. The railway also which is the legal entity behind the National Museum works with Swale Skills Centre to provide training for of Science and Industry, which includes the National suitable candidates. Railway Museum. It is important to remember that The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, talked about the the role of the Railway Heritage Committee is to Bluebell Railway and its work with paid staff, volunteers designate items, not to hold them; I am sure that all and apprentices. That pattern is repeated around the noble Lords will agree. country on many railways. The Government recognise the valuable work that I turn to the sector’s contribution to tourism and the noble Lord has done on this proposal. While not the regional economy. These are two sides of the same wishing to pre-empt the debate on this matter that will coin, and many noble Lords have made contributions take place during Committee stage of the Public Bodies on this topic. Heritage railways create direct paid Bill, I assure him that positive discussions are continuing employment, often in areas where jobs are in short between the relevant government departments. supply; promote tourism and attract visitors to their The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred to the areas; and generate spending on services in the area, prospect of the Bluebell and Swanage Railways connecting and indirect employment. to the main lines. The Government look forward to GC 373 Railways: Heritage Sector[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Railways: Heritage Sector GC 374 the benefits of such interconnectivity, and I congratulate The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, all these railways on their efforts to join up to the mentioned the Bluebell Railway, which I have visited railway system. more than once. Having been educated at Stowe School, I look forward to the “Schools” class locomotive of The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the that name being returned to running order after giving Parry people mover. I do not know much about this sterling service. That locomotive was originally secured project, but we must look at all practical options for by my noble friend Lord Montagu of Beaulieu. reducing the cost of the railway while maintaining services. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, also talked about the East Grinstead extension of the Bluebell Railway. In his opening comments, the noble Lord, Lord We congratulate that railway on its efforts to remove Faulkner, said that there was a fleet of 800 preserved waste from its line extension. I am sure that the noble locomotives, but of course there are many more waiting Lord will continue to press local businesses to contribute to be restored. There is no shortage of work. The to the line extension, but sadly it is not my role as a noble Lord also mentioned the “Tornado” project. I government Minister to intervene. am sure that all noble Lords look forward to the boiler problems being resolved. In conclusion, I am grateful for this opportunity, in its 60th anniversary year, to congratulate the railway The noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, talked about heritage sector on its successes, often in the face of Paraguay. I acknowledge the importance of the history monumental engineering and financial challenges, of the major contribution that UK engineering firms preserving an important aspect of the nation’s heritage, made to overseas railways. The noble Viscount mentioned enriching the lives of millions and providing tangible a famous steam locomotive that was built in Scotland. and very welcome support to our regional economies. I recently read a fascinating book about the building of railways around the world. Committee adjourned at 7.21 pm.

WS 69 Written Statements[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 70

disadvantaged groups and accessible housing registers: Written Statements A guide to positive practice. This summary contains all the key messages of the longer report. Tuesday 1 February 2011 Costs and effectiveness of accessible housing registers in a choice-based lettings context. This report examines Department for Communities and Local the cost and effectiveness of accessible housing registers Government: Research in a choice-based letting context. Statement Local Government Strategic commissioning for place shaping: Volume 1— The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department A report written by practitioners for practitioners and for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Volume 2—Case studies. The long-term evaluation of My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing local area agreements and local strategic partnerships and Local Government (Grant Shapps) has made the includes two action learning sets, short projects where following Written Ministerial Statement. practitioners meet and share learning about how to Today the Government are publishing the first group improve the day to day working of particular aspects of reports presenting the findings from research projects of local area agreements. The sets cover strategic commissioned by the previous Administration. commissioning for place shaping. There is a significant backlog of unpublished reports Long-term evaluation of local area agreements and that were produced by the previous Government and local strategic partnerships: Performance management over the next few months we will be publishing these of local strategic partnerships and local area agreements. reports in groups themed on a particular topic. An action learning set report written by practitioners The reports and findings are of general policy for practitioners. The long-term evaluation of local interest, but do not relate to forthcoming policy area agreements and local strategic partnerships includes announcements. We are publishing these documents two action learning sets, short projects where practitioners in the interests of transparency and as part of our meet and share learning about how to improve the day freedom of information commitment to publish the to day working of particular aspects of local area results of all commissioned research. For transparency, agreements. The sets cover performance management all completed work is being published regardless of of local strategic partnerships and local area agreements. format or robustness. The 16 reports published today represent the findings Report on the 2009 survey of local strategic partnership from 11 research projects at a total cost of £691,000. partners: Main report and Annexes. This research was These findings cover the topics of housing, local commissioned as part of the long-term evaluation of government and building, planning and the environment. local area agreements and local strategic partnerships. It captures the views of local partners—from the The Government are concerned to ensure their public, private and voluntary sectors—on a range of research delivers best possible value for money for the subjects, including how effective they think their taxpayer and that sums expended are reasonable in partnership is, and the local area agreements and relation to the public policy benefits obtained. DCLG other powers help partnerships achieve their objectives. has put in place scrutiny and challenge processes for future research. Long term evaluation of local area agreements and All new projects will be scrutinised to ensure the local strategic partnerships: Collaboration, innovation methodology is sound and that all options for funding and value for money. Final report of the call-down are explored at an early stage. This includes using project. This report, part of the long-term evaluation existing work from other organisations, joint funding of local area agreements and local strategic partnerships, projects with other departments or organisations and explored the ways in partnerships had made use of taking work forward in-house. innovation to meet shared priorities, and examined the contribution of value for money considerations in Housing the process of innovation design and implementation. Behavioural change and the housing sector: A scoping study report. This report by Ferrari et al considers the Understanding performance in a flexible, decentralised benefits and implications of applying behavioural approach to delivery. This report provides help and economics to analyse the motivations and decisions worked examples in moving between geographies as a made by different actors in the housing supply and way to understand performance, to meet cross-cutting demand chain. policy requiring local information at bespoke geographic Choice-based lettings, potentially disadvantaged groups areas independent of formal administrative or statistical and accessible housing registers: A guide to positive units. practice. The guide provides advice on how to set up Using and developing place typologies for policy and operate choice-based letting schemes to ensure purposes. This report supports area-based policy making, that social housing applicants are not disadvantaged particularly in regeneration and local economic by the proactive nature of choice based lettings. development, and the monitoring and comparison of Choice-based lettings, potentially disadvantaged groups local government performance. It provides advice on and accessible housing registers: A summary guide to how to make policy sensitive to the enormous variability positive practice. This report is a shorter, standalone in neighbourhoods, districts, cities or towns by using summary of the Choice-based lettings, potentially methods for categorising places. WS 71 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 72

A study to determine whether it is possible to produce The Foreign Office’s priorities are to safeguard Gross Value Added data for upper tier local authorities. Britain’s national security, build British prosperity and This report details the ONS regional accounts support British nationals around the world. methodology used to produce gross value added estimates The review we have conducted will ensure that FCO at nomenclature of units for territorial statistics (NUTs) programme spending is aligned with our priorities and level 3 estimates, and evaluates whether the methodology contributes to the development of Britain’s diplomatic can be extended to upper-tier authorities for which influence and the promotion of our values. We must gross value added estimates do not currently exist. ensure the money is spent effectively and supports the Building, Planning and the Environment Government’s commitment to spend 0.7 per cent of Evaluating the effectiveness and outcomes of DCLG GNI as official development assistance (ODA) by 2013. funded interventions into the delivery of core strategies. As a result of the review the FCO will change the This report evaluates the effectiveness of DCLG funded way it manages its programme spending. We will give support packages used to promote the delivery of core British ambassadors greater responsibility for deciding strategy development plans for those local authorities how best to spend their local budgets to support UK that were encouraging higher levels of housing growth foreign policy objectives and strengthen bilateral under the previous Government. relationships. We will reduce administrative spending Code for sustainable homes water calculator. This and seek other cost savings. We will introduce new report reviews the water efficiency calculator for new procedures to assess the impact of FCO programme dwellings, which supported the Code for Sustainable spending worldwide. Homes. For the 2011-12 financial year, we have decided to Building regulations system and the planning system allocate: - A better regulation approach for sustainability. This £57 million for programmes dedicated to national report analyses the interface between planning and security; building regulations in the context of environmental £24 million for programmes to support UK prosperity, sustainability, to investigate the overlaps, synergies including through the promotion of a stable and and gaps between the two systems. open global economic environment which will help The scope of an MOT test for buildings. This report countries develop; and covers a scoping study into the possible development £58.5 million for the support of democratic values, of an MoT test for buildings and whether it was human rights and British diplomatic influence overseas. feasible to have periodic tests carried on buildings. The use of civil sanctions to enforce building regulations. This is a total of £139.5 million. I anticipate that in This report looks at the possibility of adopting some future years it will be necessary to make some reductions or all of the civil sanctions made available under the in these allocations in order to be able to continue to Regulatory Sanctions and Enforcement Act 2008 for support our diplomatic network overseas, while achieving the purpose of achieving higher levels of compliance the savings we committed to making during the with the building regulations. comprehensive spending review. These reports and findings are of general policy Within the overall allocations set out above we have interest, but do not relate to forthcoming policy made a number of significant decisions on funding for announcements and are not a reflection of the current individual programmes next year. Government’s policies and priorities. DCLG is publishing On security, we will sustain spending on counter- these reports in the interests of transparency. terrorism and counter-proliferation at £38 million and Copies of these reports are available on the Department £3 million respectively. We will provide £16 million for for Communities and Local Government website. Copies spending on counter-narcotics and rule of law programmes have been placed in the Library of the House. in Afghanistan. This represents a reduction of £2 million, which will be made possible without affecting the outcomes of our projects there, as several of them will reach the end of their capital investment stage. We will Foreign and Commonwealth Office: incorporate future spending on drugs and crime projects into the bilateral programmes managed by posts overseas, Expenditure while provide a total of £2 million as a ring-fenced Statement element within those budgets to be dedicated to projects on drugs and crime. We will significantly increase spending on programmes The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to help countries develop and to support UK prosperity, Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable bringing these to a total of £20 million. We will spend friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and more on projects which promote openness, international Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made trade and investment, transparent and stable regulatory the following Written Ministerial Statement. environments and strengthen the multilateral trading In my Statement to the House of 29 June 2010, I system and international investment opportunities, informed the House of the outcome of my review of while resisting protectionism, including creating a how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will spend commercial diplomacy fund of £4 million dedicated to its programme funding in this financial year. I am now identifying and securing commercial opportunities for in a position to announce decisions about programme our businesses, and supporting inward investment to spending for the next financial year 2011-12. the UK. We will maintain current levels of spending WS 73 Written Statements[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 74 on our successful programme which promotes the Today signals a landmark in the freeing up of global transition to a low carbon economy, energy councils to successfully manage their own housing efficiency and security, and is intended to increase the stock for the benefit of their tenants—a change that prospects of reaching a global climate change agreement. has long been talked about, but the coalition Government In terms of the promotion of our diplomatic influence are actually delivering. and values, we will increase funding for bilateral Today we are publishing the information councils programmes to £19 million, including a ring-fenced need to plan for this significant reform—reforms which allocation for the western Balkans and other non-EU will see councils keep their own rents and spend them countries in Europe. We will establish a new fund of on their own housing. This includes a detailed description £5 million to address, in partnership with regional as to how their opening financial position will be governments, the long-term underlying governance determined and the process for implementing these and social, economic and political participation issues reforms in April 2012. It also gives each local authority affecting the Arab world. We will increase spending in a much clearer idea as to exactly how they will be the support of the Overseas Territories to £7 million. affected by the reforms. This will enable them to use We will sustain our spending on human rights and the next 14 months to plan ahead and put themselves democracy at £5 million. We will slightly increase in the best possible position to maximise the benefits spending in support of the Westminster Foundation of the new freedoms. Copies have been placed in the for Democracy to £3.5 million. We will dedicate Library of the House. £17 million to spending on scholarships while at the In line with the Government’s emphasis on same time ensuring a greater proportion of that spending transparency, local authorities and tenants will be able is in Commonwealth countries. to see how and why the valuation has altered since the We will reduce spending on strategic communications proposals published in March 2010. by one third to £2 million, targeting spending on Our proposals for self-financing for council housing activities and initiatives which actively support FCO will: priorities, and spend a greater proportion of this funding give councils the resources they need to manage in posts overseas. their own housing stock for the long-term—correcting I will provide the House with details of programme decades of under-funding; spending for future years in due course together with give councils the incentives and flexibility they have further information about how we will ensure that sought to drive up quality and efficiency; and these funds provide the best possible value for the public money. give tenants the information they need to hold their landlord to account—replacing the current opaque, centralised system with one which establishes a Housing: Council Houses clear relationship between the rent councils charge Statement and the services they provide These reforms are fair. They are rooted in a consistent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and tested calculation of the value of each council’s for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): social housing business, producing a sustainable self- My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing financing settlement for each local authority. I expect and Local Government (Grant Shapps) has made the all councils to welcome the reforms and to start planning following Written Ministerial Statement. now how to make the most of their new freedom.

WA 245 Written Answers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 246 Written Answers Asked by Lord Moonie To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the event Tuesday 1 February 2011 of the cancellation of the Joint Strike Fighter F-35B variant, how much public money will have been committed to it; and what refunds they would Armed Forces: Aircraft expect. [HL6148] Questions Lord Astor of Hever: As the Prime Minister made Asked by Lord Moonie clear in his Statement on the strategic defence and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions security review on 19 October 2010, we plan to procure they have had with the government of the United the carrier variant Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), the States and the Joint Strike Fighter prime contractor F-35C. While we are committed to procuring three about (a) structural and propulsion design flaws for F-35B aircraft, at a total of $632 million, to conduct the F-35B version, (b) the impact of them on weight joint test and evaluation with the US Armed Forces, and costs, and (c) the possibility of the entire we will gain substantial benefit from operating these programme being cancelled. [HL6096] aircraft as a part of the F-35C programme. In particular, the mission systems are common between all three JSF variants and our continued participation in joint The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry test and evaluation is vital for the delivery of essential of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The UK has been legal, safety and operational sovereignty requirements. briefed on difficulties discovered during development The three F-35B aircraft are early phase aircraft. The test associated with the F-35B structure and Joint final unit cost of our F-35C operational aircraft will Strike Fighter (JSF) propulsion systems and also on be substantially lower. the design changes which have been processed to fix these issues during the development phase. The UK Asylum Seekers remains confident in the US programme leadership and the prime contractor in its ability to deliver these Question whilst maintaining capability and affordability. As our Asked by Lord Avebury contribution to the JSF development programme is fixed under the 2001 memorandum of understanding To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many there will be no direct development cost implications asylum applicants are awaiting decisions (a) six from these changes to the UK. months, (b) one year, (c) 18 months, and (d) two While we will continue to swatch closely the years, after submitting their applications. [HL6180] development of F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant and will seek to ensure that The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- we gain the benefits of our early investment in F-35B Jones): The attached data are published in the monthly STOVL aircraft for test and evaluation, our decision asylum application tables available from the Home announced in the strategic defence and security review Office’s Research, Development and Statistics website to change variant to the more capable F35C carrier at: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- variant (CV) for operational use has not been influenced stats.html. by these development issues. Both the F35C CV and This data series on the number of asylum applications F35A conventional take-off and landing variants are lodged since April 2006 that are pending are based on performing as expected during test and have not the UK Border Agency’s administrative database. Further experienced the same technical issues as the F35B work is needed to assure the quality of the earlier STOVL. We have held no discussions with the US on records before information on earlier years can be the possibility of the entire programme being cancelled. published.

Pending applications received for asylum since April 2006 in the United Kingdom at the end of October 2010, broken down by age of application (1) (2) (3) (P) Number of applicants Total pending of whom: Cases pending further review, Cases less than Cases more than excludes persons of whom: 6 months old 6 months old who have not Total (including principal pending an pending an received an dependants) applicants initial decision initial decision initial decision of whom: of whom: of whom: Total (including principal Total (including principal Total (including principal Month dependants) applicants dependants) applicants dependants) applicants

Latest monthly data provided to EUROSTAT under Regulation (EC) No 862/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council on Community Total 15,915 12,445 3,215 2,620 4,685 3,915 8,015 5,915 Of whom: Less than 6 6,650 5,180 3,215 2,620 .. .. 3,435 2,560 months WA 247 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 248

Pending applications received for asylum since April 2006 in the United Kingdom at the end of October 2010, broken down by age of application (1) (2) (3) (P) Number of applicants Total pending of whom: Cases pending further review, Cases less than Cases more than excludes persons of whom: 6 months old 6 months old who have not Total (including principal pending an pending an received an dependants) applicants initial decision initial decision initial decision of whom: of whom: of whom: Total (including principal Total (including principal Total (including principal Month dependants) applicants dependants) applicants dependants) applicants

Between 6 1,740 1,360 .. .. 570 485 1,170 875 months and 1 year Between 1 1,405 1,080 .. .. 645 550 755 535 year and 18 months Between 18 2,190 1,740 .. .. 1,285 1,050 910 690 months and 2 years Greater 3,935 3,085 .. .. 2,190 1,830 1,745 1,255 than 2 years

(1) Figures rounded to the nearest 5 (- = 0,*=1or2)andmay The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth not sum to the totals shown because of independent rounding. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I remain deeply (2) For the figures which include dependants further disaggregations concerned about the situation in Belarus. The UK is at by age, gender and nationality will be available on the EUROSTAT the forefront of efforts within the EU and the wider website: http://epp.eurostatec.europa.eu/portal/paqe/portal/statistics/ international community to bring pressure to bear search database on the Belarusian authorities. We have been vocal in (3) Applications received for asylum lodged since 1 April 2006 advocating a tough EU response. This includes which are still under consideration at the end of the reference period. Numbers pending either initial decision or further judicial re-imposing targeted sanctions. My right honourable appeal, but excluding those who have lodged a judicial review friend the Minister for Europe, David Lidington, (P) Provisional figures. encouraged the EU High Representative Baroness Ashton .. Not applicable. to issue a strongly worded joint EU-US statement, which was released on 23 December 2010. We will Banking: Bonuses continue to work closely with both our EU and US Question colleagues. Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they propose to take action in support of Sir Philip Consumer Spending Hampton, the chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, in tackling the “gangmaster cultural Question phenomenon” allegedly evident in the determination Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick of bonuses for investment bank traders, as referred To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans to in Britain’s Banks: Too Big to Save on BBC2 on they have to encourage consumers to spend more. 18 January. [HL6009] [HL6321] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The Government are addressing unacceptable remuneration practices through a combination of The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord measures that target the structure and transparency of Sassoon): The Government recognise that consumer pay and other measures with the potential to bear spending can support the recovery in the economy in down on the profits from excessive risk taking. This the short-term. However, it is also important that includes improving governance, imposing adequate consumer spending is consistent with sustainable levels capital and liquidity requirements and considering the of debt and the overall rebalancing of the UK economy scope to introduce greater competitive pressure over time. over the long-term. Belarus Question Crime: Knife Crime Asked by Lord Hylton Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will co-ordinate their response to actions against Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick the political opposition in Belarus with the Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans of the United States and the . they have to combat knife crime by teenagers in the [HL6181] United Kingdom. [HL6163] WA 249 Written Answers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 250

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- EU: Financial Stability Jones): Serious youth violence is a key priority for this Government. We are currently considering our future Question plans in this area. However, in 2010-11 we have provided Asked by Lord Dykes £4 million to assist local partnerships in 52 participating community safety partnerships and British Transport To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Police in their work to tackle serious violence committed will propose in the Council of Ministers increased by young people and against young people. take-up of European Financial Stability Facility In addition, the Prime Minister and Home Secretary bonds following the latest issue. [HL6306] asked Brooke Kinsella, whose brother Ben was murdered two years ago, to undertake a fact-finding mission to The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord examine schemes working in local communities to Sassoon): The UK is not party to the European Financial stop young people from carrying and using weapons. Stability Facility (EFSF), which was established by Ms Kinsella’s report will be published shortly. euro area Finance Ministers on 9 May 2010. Responsibility for managing the EFSF rests with euro area governments. The Home Office Community Fund programme has provided 144 small local community-based organisations with small grants of up to £10,000 each EU: Membership in 2010-11 to deliver projects aimed at preventing Question young people from engaging in gun, gang and knife Asked by Lord Elton crime and to steer those already involved towards more positive initiatives and activities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Howell of Guildford on 10 January (WA 400 and 415), what criteria they Crimestoppers apply in deciding whether to support applications from countries for membership of the European Question Union; and whether the criteria include having to Asked by Lord Laird have established genuine freedom of worship and freedom from discrimination for all faiths in their To ask Her Majesty’s Government what funding country. [HL6026] will be provided to Crimestoppers in Wales in each of the next three years. [HL6031] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The EU treaties are clear that in order to apply for membership of the EU The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- a European state must respect, and be committed to Jones): The Home Office expects to be able to notify promote, the values of respect for human dignity, funding decisions for Crimestoppers for 2011-12 and freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and 2012-13 within the next two weeks. respect for human rights including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. In order to open accession negotiations, a country must meet the political criterion e-Borders of the Copenhagen Criteria, for example, stability of Question institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities, Asked by Lord Marlesford including freedom of religion. If a country was considered not to have met the political criterion it would not To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the be able to open accession negotiations until it had proportion of inbound passengers to the United implemented the necessary reforms. Kingdom who are subject to e-borders control first reached 60 per cent; and when they expect it to reach (a) 70 per cent, (b) 80 per cent and (c) 90 per Fire Services cent. [HL6265] Question Asked by Lord Jopling The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Jones): Currently, around 55 per cent of inbound and have considered creating an inspectorate for the fire 60 per cent of outbound passenger movements from services; and whether they have estimated the cost the UK are being processed through e-Borders. It is of attaching such responsibility to HM Inspectorate expected that by the end of this Parliament both of Constabulary. [HL6098] figures will have exceeded 90 per cent. We are currently unable to give definitive answers The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department on when we expect to reach the intermediate percentage for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): figures, since these are reliant on a number of factors, The Secretary of State, Department for Communities including EU data protection and free movement issues. and Local Government, announced last summer the We are currently checking over 90 per cent of abolition of the Audit Commission. Ministers have non-EU aviation passengers and expect to be checking not considered creating an inspectorate for fire and 100 per cent of non-EU aviation passengers through rescue authorities, nor have we undertaken any estimation e-Borders by April 2012. of costs. WA 251 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 252

The Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser has been appointed Cambridge, which undertakes innovative interdisciplinary as an inspector under the Fire and Rescue Services research in cancer biology, cancer diagnosis, and cancer Act 2004. This provides powers to take action in any therapy. circumstances where Government may wish to have an investigation or assessment eg a major fire incident investigation. Government Departments: Staff Gibraltar Question Question Asked by Lord Dykes Asked by Lord Kilclooney To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Mr Andy Coulson will continue exercising his functions Gibraltar is within the European Union; if so, as No. 10 director of communications during the whether Gibraltar is represented in the European Crown Prosecution Service review of all the evidence Parliament; and whether the UK Border Agency in the News of the World telephone tapping case. treats Gibraltar as within the European Union. [HL6013] [HL5994] Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I refer the noble Lord to The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the statement made by the Prime Minister on Friday Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Gibraltar is part of 21 January 2011. the UK member state as a territory for whose external relations a member state (the United Kingdom) is Immigration responsible (Article 355(3) TFEU). Whilst in principle the treaty applies to Gibraltar, certain significant provisions Question do not apply, including provisions on the free movement Asked by Lord Laird of goods, the common agricultural policy and the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to common fisheries policy: Gibraltarians are represented the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on in the European Parliament. They vote in the European 24 January (WA 112), whether the 10 largest public Parliament elections as part of the south west of sector employers follow the UK Border Agency England electoral region: The UK Border Agency recommendation that document checks to prove a treats Gibraltar as an overseas territory, and also right to work in the United Kingdom are conducted within the European Union. on all prospective employees, including British, Irish and European Economic Area citizens. [HL6274] Health: Cancer The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Question Jones): Public sector employers who are sponsors under Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick tier 2 of the points-based system are subject to compliance visits. Any found to be non-compliant may face having To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their their licence revoked. No public sector employers have spending cuts will affect funding for cancer research. been found to be non-compliant. [HL6238] All employers are expected to follow the recommendations made by the agency on document The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department checks to prove a right to work in the United Kingdom. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): This expectation applies irrespective of whether or The announcements made in the spending review recognise not the employer is deemed a public or private sector that science and research are critical to long term employer. economic growth. Despite pressure on public spending, Guidance documents for employers on preventing funding for science and research programmes has been illegal working include a code of practice that helps protected in cash terms at £4.6 billion per annum, employers to comply with the law on illegal working ring-fenced for the four years of the spending review. without discriminating against individuals on the basis The Medical Research Council (MRC) is one of the of their race. main agencies through which the Government support This code of practice makes clear that to avoid medical and clinical research, including cancer research. discrimination, all applicants should be treated in the The overall MRC budget has been set to ensure MRC same way at each stage of the recruitment practice. resource expenditure is maintained in real terms. In This includes British, Irish and European Economic keeping with the Haldane Principle, prioritisation of Area citizens. an individual research council’s spending within its allocation is not a decision for Ministers. The MRC will make decisions on its priorities. Inflation The MRC spends approximately £105 million (2009 Question data) on cancer and research relevant to cancer, including strategic partnerships. Examples of recent MRC funding Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick awards for research relating to cancer include the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their renewal of funding for the MRC cancer cell unit in response to the rise in inflation. [HL6041] WA 253 Written Answers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 254

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Secondly, allied to the chamber’s high tech initiative, Sassoon): The UK’s monetary policy framework gives the Government are hosting a round table at the end operational responsibility for maintaining price stability of January 2011 on building a UK/Israel high tech to the independent Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) partnership involving British tech entrepreneurs and of the Bank of England. The Government confirmed their Israeli counterparts. Together, they will aim to in the June Budget that the MPC will continue to identify the potential synergies between the UK and target 2 per cent inflation, as measured by the 12-month Israeli high tech economies, discuss how to encourage increase in the consumer prices index. The MPC’s more Israeli companies to look to UK for business view is that inflation is likely to fall back to target partnerships, and establish how to increase the number during 2012. of British companies doing business with Israel. Thirdly, the Government have launched an initiative Israel to strengthen UK/Israel scientific links. This is an important underpinning to a stronger high-tech Question partnership. It is focused on the life sciences, where Asked by Baroness Tonge both Britain and Israel have immense strengths. It was launched by the Foreign Secretary during his visit to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent Israel in November 2010 and a new UK/Israel Life representations they have made to the Government Sciences Council will have had its first meeting in of Israel about the three MPs from east Jerusalem Jerusalem on 25 January, bringing together top scientists who have been threatened with deportation from from both sides to identify specific fields in the life east Jerusalem and have taken refuge in the Red sciences where Britain and Israel are both strong and Cross in east Jerusalem for 200 days; and what therefore provide a focus for collaboration. progress has been made following any such representations. [HL6017] Justice: Sentencing The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Question Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I refer the noble Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Baroness to my response of 21 January 2011 (Official To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Report, col. WA 76). they have to review the use of intensive community “The Government are concerned about the potential political punishment as a replacement for prison sentences. deportations. Forcible transfer of people out of the city for political reasons is illegal under international humanitarian law. [HL6208] The EU has raised these cases with the Israeli Government, making its views clear. Our embassy in Tel Aviv has also raised The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord these cases with Israel’s Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon. McNally): Seven areas are running pilots to test an The UK was part of a joint European delegation that attended intensive community order targeting offenders likely the Supreme Court hearing on the case of Mr Muhammed to be sentenced to short-term custody. The National Abu Teir”. Offender Management Service has commissioned research I can confirm that the Israeli authorities released including analysis exploring the feasibility of evaluating Mr Abu Teir and expelled him to the West Bank on the schemes’ impact on reoffending. 8 December. Regarding Mahmoud al-Rahmi, we do not expect any further movement on this case until 9 Kosovo May when his administrative detention is up for renewal. Question Israel: Trade Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Question European Union Rule of Law Mission is able to Asked by Lord Clinton-Davis assist in reducing the backlog of court cases in Kosovo. [HL6184] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent discussions they have had with the Government of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Israel and with representatives of businesses there Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The EU Rule of about how each country could benefit economically Law Mission (EULEX) actively assists the Kosovan from trade with each other. [HL5972] authorities with reducing the backlog of cases in Kosovo. It has its own executive mandate to take action on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department outstanding court cases with a focus on the most for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): complex or serious ones (for example: war crimes, The Government have recently focused on three initiatives high profile organised crime and corruption cases, to identify benefits from and exploit the UK/Israel terrorism, inter-ethnic crimes, financial/economic crimes). trade relationship more fully: In doing so, EULEX judges work together with their First, the Government have assisted the British local counterparts in mixed panels or mixed teams, Israel Chamber of Commerce to establish a high tech ensuring that such cases are properly investigated, committee and launch a high tech initiative which prosecuted, adjudicated and enforced, according to HMG have co-designed. The initiative puts leading the applicable law. EULEX judges serve both at the British tech entrepreneurs in charge of developing level of the supreme court and at the level of district strategies in three specific subsectors. courts in Kosovo. WA 255 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 256

The EULEX judges also have a monitoring, mentoring The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- and advising (MMA) function. In this capacity, they Jones): We have no plans to ask the Migration Advisory assist Kosovo judicial authorities in their progress Committee to review tier 2 provision for medical towards sustainability and accountability and in further practitioners. developing and strengthening an independent multi-ethnic In 2010, 2,366 tier 2 applicants were sponsored to justice system, adhering to internationally recognised work as medical practitioners, of whom 1,174 were standards and European best practice. visa applicants and 1,192 were in-country applicants. Asked by Lord Laird Local Government: Cost Savings To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Question recommendations of the Migration Advisory Asked by Lord Moonie Committee they have rejected or not agreed since To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate 11 May 2010. [HL6232] they have made of cost savings from combining district and county councils into a single tier. [HL6150] Baroness Neville-Jones: The Government have not rejected outright any recommendations made by the Migration Advisory Committee since 11 May 2010. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): In its report, Limits on Tier 1 and Tier 2 for 2011-12 We have made no estimate of the cost savings arising and Supporting Policies, the committee put forward a from creating a single-tier of local government in the series of possible options for operating the limit. The remaining 27 two-tier areas of England. Indeed, Ministers report emphasised the importance of identifying and believe unitary restructuring to be an expensive and attracting those migrants who have the most to contribute unnecessary distraction. Stopping the unitary restructuring to the UK. The Government’s policies are designed with in Devon and Norfolk has saved taxpayers £40 million. that objective in mind, but the operation of our limit will differ in detail from some of the options set out by the committee, having been adapted in line with the Localism Bill findings of the Government’s own consultation on limits. Question Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Police: Funding will make provision to ensure that the diversification Question of service provision under the Localism Bill is carried out in ways which do not reduce the scope Asked by Lord Laird of protection given by the Human Rights Act 1998 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what monies and the public sector equality duty under the Equality from (a) the Home Office, and (b) police authorities, Act 2010. [HL6147] have been allocated to the Association of Chief Police Officers in each of the past five financial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, years. [HL6087] Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): The community right to challenge in the Localism Bill will contribute to the diversification The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- of service provision. The right enables voluntary and Jones): In addition to an annual grant-in-aid payment, community bodies, parish councils and local authority the Home Office makes regular payments to the employees to express an interest in running a local Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to fund a authority service, which may trigger a procurement number of specific projects or in support of key exercise for the service. Where this is the case, as with initiatives. The table below shows the amount of money services that are already contracted out, local authorities that the Home Office and police authorities have will need to ensure they comply with their existing allocated to ACPO in the past five financial years. obligations under human rights and equalities legislation. Financial Year Migration 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Questions £££££ Asked by Lord Laird Home 836,232 836,232 836,232 836,232 823,688 Office To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Grant in the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 29 November Aid (WA 411), whether they will ask the Migration Home 15,735,245 23,421,993 17,967,843 19,301,340 Full Advisory Committee to review the issue of tier two Office total points-based system work permit visas to medical project not yet practitioners from non-European Economic Area funding available Police 850,000 850,000 850,000 850,000 850,000 countries; and how many such work permits were Authorities issued last year. [HL6231] WA 257 Written Answers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 258

ACPO, as a private limited company, receives income The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- from other activities which it undertakes as a private Jones): The use of police undercover agents is governed company, the details of which can be requested from by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 ACPO itself. (RIPA) as well as police internal guidance. The Home Office publishes codes of practice on how practitioners in public authorities should apply RIPA. In addition, Police: Grants the independent Office of Surveillance Commissioners, who inspect and oversee use of RIPA, and the National Question Policing Improvement Agency, also provide advice Asked by Lord Laird and guidance. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial Police: Ringmaster Service assistance in setting up payments or grant aid was paid in each of the past three years to (a) Dyfedd Question Powis, (b) South Wales, and (c) Gwent, constabularies Asked by Lord Laird and (d) all county councils within their areas of operation for the setting up of, or assistance to, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial Partnerships and Communities Together schemes assistance is allocated by the Home Office for the and panels and the appointment of neighbourhood operation, administration and equipment to provide crime and justice co-ordinators in those areas; and the Ringmaster service for notifications to residents whether they will place copies of the accounts in and other interested parties in the South Wales the Library of the House. [HL6002] constabulary area in (a) east Cardiff, and (b) west Cardiff; and whether they will investigate why the service provided by the South Wales constabulary The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- has not operated for the past 12 months. [HL6030] Jones): The Home Office has provided the following funding to areas in Wales for neighbourhood crime The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- and justice co-ordinators over the past three years. Jones): The Home Office has not allocated financial assistance to provide the Ringmaster service in the 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 South Wales constabulary area. The local allocation City and £23,654.00 £25,322.00 £0 claimed so of resources is a matter for the chief constable and County of far (up to police authority, who are responsible for assessing Swansea £50,000 local needs. available) Cardiff £2,407.41 £56,633.00 £0 claimed so County far (up to Prisoners: Voting Council £50,000 available) Question Caerphilly £25,000.00 £60,000.00 £25,000.00 Asked by Lord Laird County claimed so far Borough (up to £50,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimates Council available) they have made of the number of prisoners on Newport £37,413.83 £60,000.00 £20,000.00 remand exercising their ability to vote in local, County claimed so far Borough (up to £50,000 parliamentary and European parliamentary elections. Council available [HL6035] The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Information relating to the Neighbourhood Crime McNally): The Government have made no such estimates. and Justice initiative is included in the Home Office Data on whether individuals on remand cast postal or Resource accounts which are placed in the House proxy votes are not collected centrally. Library. The Home Office does not provide any specific funding for setting up or assistance to Partnerships Religious Intolerance and Communities Together schemes and panels. It is Question the responsibility of the police and their partners to Asked by Lord Elton put in place their own arrangements for engaging local communities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they consider it their responsibility to oppose the admission to the European Union of countries in which there Police: Protest Groups is significant and persistent discrimination on religious grounds, in particular against Christians. [HL6029] Question Asked by Lord Dykes The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is a strong To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance supporter of EU enlargement and is committed to or regulations govern the police use of undercover ensuring that aspirant countries join the EU only agents joining protest groups. [HL5910] when they have met the relevant criteria. In order to WA 259 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 260 open accession negotiations, a country must meet the with the Turkish Foreign Minister during his visit to political criterion of the Copenhagen Criteria; ie stability Turkey on 22-23 October 2010. He also discussed the of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of issue with the Armenian Foreign Minister during the law, human rights and respect for and protection of Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe minorities, including freedom of religion for all individuals Informal Ministerial Meeting in Almaty on 16 and and groups. If a country was considered not to have 17 July 2010. We have funded a number of projects met the political criterion it would not be able to open designed to build dialogue between civil society groups. accession negotiations until it had implemented the Reinstating diplomatic relations will be beneficial for necessary reforms. both countries as well as the wider region. Turkey Question Visas Asked by Lord Elton Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answers by Lord Howell of Guildford Asked by Lord Laird on 10 January (WA 400 and 415), why they do not make representations concerning the interests of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Christians resident in Turkey to the Government the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on of Turkey, whilst they do make such representations 17 January (WA 115–6), why the number of grants regarding the interests of Christians in Iraq to the of extension of leave to remain in the United Kingdom Government of Iraq. [HL6025] for students increased from 104,500 from Q3 2008 to Q2 2009 to 112,750 from Q3 2009 to Q2 2010; The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth what are the main reasons for non-European Economic Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government Area students applying for extensions of leave to raise the need to promote freedom of religion and remain; and for how long and how often such leave belief in our wider discussions on human rights with can be extended. [HL6189] the Government of Turkey. We believe this approach is more constructive in encouraging the Turkish authorities to make necessary reforms. We also raise specific cases The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- with the Turkish authorities where their resolution Jones): The rising numbers of grants of extensions of would have implications for the wider situation regarding leave to remain are due to the fact that more applicants freedom of religion. applied who met the provisions of tier 4 of the points- As part of its EU accession process, Turkey has based system. The main reason for non-European committed to an extensive reform programme, which Economic Area students applying for extensions of will bring it in line with EU norms and standards leave to remain is to undertake a further course of study; across the broad spectrum of human rights issues, other reasons include changes of sponsor or extensions including religious freedoms. We strongly support this for re-sitting exams. process. The European Commission makes a general At present, a student can spend a maximum of assessment of human rights issues in its annual progress three years studying courses below degree level under report, which is scrutinised by member states and tier 4, but there is currently no limit on the amount of discussed at the December General Affairs Council. time a student can spend studying courses at or above The UK condemns all instances where individuals degree level. On 7 December the Government launched are persecuted because of their faith or belief. The a public consultation on reform of the student immigration current situation in Iraq has prompted the British system; copies are available in the House Library. Government to make direct representations to the Government of Iraq, but more generally we continue to urge the Iraqi Government to protect all their citizens. Women: Employment The UK continues to promote freedom of religion Question or belief in its bilateral relations around the world. Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Turkey-Armenia Relations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Question they have to introduce a quota for the number of Asked by Lord Hylton women in top company jobs. [HL6121] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have proposals for mediation or conciliation to help normalise relations between Turkey and Armenia. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, [HL6186] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Lord Davies of Abersoch is currently conducting The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth a review which will identify the obstacles to women Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We continue to becoming directors of listed companies in the UK and encourage the normalisation of relations between Turkey propose actions which might be taken to improve the and Armenia. My right honourable friend the Minister position. The Government will respond to his review for Europe raised normalisation of relations with Armenia in due course. WA 261 Written Answers[1 FEBRUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 262

Young People: Employment the conditions for sustainable private sector growth, upon which the creation of new jobs for both young Question and older adults depends. Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Our plans to promote private sector growth were set out last November in The path to strong, sustainable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans and balanced growth. they have to create more jobs for young people. In addition, we will help young people to make a [HL6120] successful transition into work through pre-employment training for those on active benefits and an expanded apprenticeships programme. The Government’s new The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Work Programme will also provide young people with for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): personalised support and training to help them into We are committed to cutting the deficit and creating sustainable employment.

Tuesday 1 February 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Department for Communities and Local Government: Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Expenditure...... 71

Research...... 69 Housing: Council Houses ...... 73

Tuesday 1 February 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Aircraft ...... 245 Israel: Trade...... 253

Asylum Seekers...... 246 Justice: Sentencing ...... 254

Banking: Bonuses ...... 247 Kosovo...... 254

Belarus...... 247 Local Government: Cost Savings...... 255

Consumer Spending...... 248 Localism Bill...... 255

Crime: Knife Crime ...... 248 Migration...... 255

Crimestoppers...... 249 Police: Funding...... 256 e-Borders ...... 249 Police: Grants ...... 257

EU: Financial Stability ...... 250 Police: Protest Groups ...... 257

EU: Membership ...... 250 Police: Ringmaster Service...... 258

Fire Services...... 250 Prisoners: Voting...... 258

Gibraltar...... 251 Religious Intolerance ...... 258

Government Departments: Staff...... 252 Turkey...... 259

Health: Cancer...... 251 Turkey-Armenia Relations...... 259

Immigration...... 252 Visas ...... 260

Inflation...... 252 Women: Employment ...... 260

Israel...... 253 Young People: Employment...... 261 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL5910] ...... 257 [HL6025] ...... 259

[HL5972] ...... 253 [HL6026] ...... 250

[HL5994] ...... 251 [HL6029] ...... 258

[HL6002] ...... 257 [HL6030] ...... 258

[HL6009] ...... 247 [HL6031] ...... 249

[HL6013] ...... 252 [HL6035] ...... 258

[HL6017] ...... 253 [HL6041] ...... 252 Col. No. Col. No. [HL6087] ...... 256 [HL6184] ...... 254

[HL6096] ...... 245 [HL6186] ...... 259

[HL6098] ...... 250 [HL6189] ...... 260

[HL6120] ...... 261 [HL6208] ...... 254

[HL6121] ...... 260 [HL6231] ...... 255

[HL6147] ...... 255 [HL6232] ...... 256

[HL6148] ...... 246 [HL6238] ...... 251

[HL6150] ...... 255 [HL6265] ...... 249

[HL6163] ...... 248 [HL6274] ...... 252

[HL6180] ...... 246 [HL6306] ...... 250

[HL6181] ...... 247 [HL6321] ...... 248 Volume 724 Tuesday No. 104 1 February 2011

CONTENTS

Tuesday 1 February 2011 Introductions: Baroness Tyler of Enfield, Lord Stirrup, Baroness Lister of Burtersett...... 1295 Black Rod Retirement of Sir Freddie Viggers and introduction of Lieutenant General David Leakey...... 1295 Questions Roads: Charging...... 1300 Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland ...... 1302 Religions for Peace...... 1304 Police: Officer Numbers ...... 1306 Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1309 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (16th Day)...... 1309 Grand Committee Children: Sexual Exploitation ...... GC 313 Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority/Human Tissue Authority ...... GC 328 Education: Children with Diabetes...... GC 345 Railways: Heritage Sector Questions for Short Debate ...... GC 360 Written Statements...... WS 69 Written Answers...... WA 245