Vol. 710 Thursday No. 68 30 April 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Black Rod Retirement of Sir Michael Willcocks and introduction of Sir Freddie Viggers Questions NATO: France Questions for Written Answer: Late Answers EU: External Action Service Gurkhas Manchester City Council Bill [HL] Bournemouth Borough Council Bill [HL] CarryoverMotion Canterbury City Council Bill Leeds City Council Bill Nottingham City Council Bill Reading Borough Council Bill Motion on Commons Message Four Statutory Instruments Referred to Grand Committee Business of the House Timing of Debates Armed Forces Debate Sri Lanka Statement Health Debate Cohabitation Bill [HL] Committee (1st Day)

Grand Committee Political Parties and Elections Bill Committee (2nd Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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little about something that they may have witnessed House of Lords on television—the State Opening of Parliament. What did they know about it? That was clear: “There’s a Thursday, 30 April 2009. man with a stick, Miss, who bangs on the door three 11 am times every year. Miss, does he get paid for that job?”. Now, we happen to know that there is, perhaps, a Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark. touch more to the job of Black Rod than that, yet it does portray that office as a key symbol of Parliament and a fixture in the public consciousness of what Black Rod Parliament does. Sir Michael has taken very seriously, Retirement of Sir Michael Willcocks and introduction as is right, those aspects of his job—his role in Parliament of Sir Freddie Viggers and his role as a member of the Royal Household. He has never been stuffy, but he has always been serious: 11.06 am serious in what has been his role, serious in how he has The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall gone about it, and serious in what he has accomplished of Blaisdon): My Lords, I have to inform the House for this House. that Her Majesty has appointed Lieutenant-General There is, however, another side to Sir Michael—Mike Sir Frederick Viggers KCB, CMG, MBE to be Gentleman to all who know him, although, as Leader, he and I Usher of the Black Rod, in succession to Sir Michael both stick properly to our formal titles in dealing with Willcocks KCB, CVO, and that he is at the Door, each other, as he has quite rightly done with all my ready to receive your Lordships’ commands. predecessors with whom he has so successfully worked in his eight years, all but a few weeks, in the role. He is, Noble Lords: Hear, hear! too, a well-spring of jokes and anecdotes. I shall not attempt to repeat any of them here, partly because I Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we are now should pale in comparison to his own abilities, and here to pay tribute to the departing Black Rod, a sad partly because I do not have his particular skill of occasion, because this Black Rod will be missed by the starting out with what looks likely to be an extraordinarily House, but an important occasion, too. The office of risqué joke that turns out, somehow magically, to be Black Rod is an important one for the realm, and highly respectable. when the holder of that office changes, it is an important moment for the House. Although we are used to seeing him formally attired and properly dressed, it has not always been like that. Others will follow me with tributes specifically focusing He is remembered for the occasions when he left on particular aspects of the job, as it has been defined, behind at home his ceremonial shoes, and had to of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, on security, process in a natty pair of leather loafers, and for when for instance, or on ceremonial matters. I am convinced he left his tights behind—Ede & Ravenscroft 60 denier, that my job today is more difficult than theirs, because I am told—although history, perhaps thankfully, does it falls to me to give to the House a sense of what Black not record his strategies to mount a cover-up and Rod is like—difficult, because he is so well known to spare his, and our, blushes. However, he has been all Members of the House that each individual Member unembarrassed in wanting to spread the word about will have a clear view of what Black Rod is like. what this House does; those skills will no doubt stand As Black Rod, though a commanding figure, he has him in good stead when he moves to his new role with been assiduous in engaging with, communicating with, the Press Complaints Commission. and talking to all Members on all sides of the House. He has seen, I believe, accessibility as a central part of As Black Rod, he has shown considerable leadership his job. That may of course be because, as an old and prompted great loyalty among his staff. He may military man, Lieutenant-General Sir Michael Willcocks not always have agreed with the decisions taken by the believes that it has been pretty well essential for him to House, but when he has not he has, despite his own know the lay of the land. It is as well, though, because views, as ever, enacted those decisions to the letter. He he is a naturally gregarious and sociable man. Black has, too, been a key member of the management team Rod is a familiar figure to the House, whether swinging of the Lords. In particular, it falls to Black Rod to take along Millbank of a morning, with his dog Sugar by on the highly unenviable task of arranging office his side, or in deep conversation in the Bishops’ Bar, or accommodation for Peers, where his tact and skill in just being about the corridors of the House so that handling the difficult issues have been exemplary. His Members can tackle him on any issues of concern to strategic work on accommodation, based around the them. In fact, so assiduous is he that I hope he will planned island site for Lords offices, has been essential. forgive me for revealing to the House his nickname in I take this opportunity to pay special tribute to him his old Army regiment, the Royal Horse Artillery. He for the way he has handled the number of particularly was known, highly affectionately, after the old “Magic difficult issues on which we have worked since I became Roundabout” figure, as Zebedee—always bouncing Leader of this House, including the matter of the about as if spring-loaded. To echo the noble Lord, police inquiries earlier this year. Throughout those Lord McNally, in his reply to the opening of the difficult periods, Black Rod, again, acted with tact, debate on the gracious Speech, “Boing!”. skill and sensitivity, as well as the required robustness Black Rod, too, is a familiar figure well beyond this when necessary. In doing so—just as he did when, a House. Visiting a school recently, I was asking the few short months into his job, he had to deal with the pupils what they knew about Parliament. I talked a security implications of the 9/11 terrorist attacks for 321 Black Rod[LORDS] Black Rod 322

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] It is my part of this carve-up to talk about his role this House and, indeed, for Parliament as a whole—he in managing the parliamentary estate—a rather dull has acted and accomplished things for the benefit of part of his role, your Lordships might think, but this House, for the benefit of the Members of the important. Probably no greater tribute can be paid to House and for the benefit of the country as a whole. Sir Michael than the fact that, when he leaves, two I welcome Lieutenant-General Sir Freddie Viggers people will replace him, in that a parliamentary estates as his successor as Black Rod, and Carl Woodall as manager will take over that part of his job. It is Director of Facilities. I look forward to working closely important that we understand what a difficult job it is with them both. I end, as I began, by thanking Black properly to manage a building that is a world and Rod for all that he has done for this House: for his national treasure and yet keep it working effectively as courtesy, for his considerateness, for his care, for his a modern Parliament, while at the same time managing attention, for his effort, and for his enthusiasm. We are it in a pull-me, push-me way, with other parts of the all indebted to him, and we are all grateful. management at the other end not always working collegiately. To add to this problem, the whole thing is Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I wholeheartedly associate managed by committee. It must test a military man to myself and this side of the House with the tribute that the utmost to find that his ideas and his plans are then the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has just taken to a committee of politicians. Just for a fleeting made in welcoming Lieutenant-General Sir Freddie moment you can sometimes see pass across his eyes Viggers and with her tremendous expressions of gratitude the thought, “If I could get you lot on a parade to Sir Michael Willcocks. ground for 15 minutes”, but then the diplomacy kicks I would like to speak particularly of Sir Michael’s in and he listens patiently while some of his carefully role in ceremonial. Need I say more of Sir Michael’s thought out ideas for making this place more efficient conduct than that it was masterly in every sense of the are slowly unpicked by people probably reading their word? After all, he is one of the few to come under committee papers for the first time. I wish him very attack from that notorious network of spin doctors good fortune in the future. and not only to survive it but, with characteristic As well as his diplomacy, we have to recognise his tenacity and courage, to teach those who tried to bully courage. Certainly, the ex-Members of the other place him a sharp lesson or two. will appreciate this. Every year, for eight years, we have Ceremony is an expression of the roots and the sent that man down that Corridor to that Door, knowing continuities that are needed in a fast-changing modern that on the other side, waiting for him, is Dennis world. It is an affirmation that institutions are greater Skinner. That alone deserves another gong on the list than those who temporarily embody them and it is that was read out. The greatest tribute to Sir Michael something that I believe we in Britain do better than is that long before his term of duty was over, he anyone. Day in, day out, in small things and big, Black managed to turn the press coverage of the annual Rod has unfailingly seen that we put our feet in the event that has almost become part of our constitution right place—and he has never put a foot wrong either. in favour of Black Rod, rather than Mr Skinner. Sir Michael’s place in the history books is assured, It is a moment of parting. I know, as a member of when all is said and done, for his conduct of, and in, the House Committee, just how much work and that immense and moving event of the lying-in-state preparation has gone into the island site in particular. of a greatly loved Queen. No one who witnessed that It will be Black Rod’s memorial when we eventually event will ever forget it, or the fact that Westminster get it. In the meantime, along with the noble Lord, Hall was open 24 hours a day for people to pay their Lord Strathclyde, and the Lord President, and—learning respects. It was largely thanks to Sir Michael that it something new every day—I wish Zebedee a very was a unifying ceremony of state and nothing more. happy retirement. In that great work of literature, the Alastair Campbell Diaries, Sir Michael is described as “that little … 11.21 am (expletive deleted)”. That accolade alone shows that he must have done something right. I am told that Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, I join, on behalf of Black Rod’s reaction, with that typically pithy sense of the Cross Benches, in the tributes that have been paid humour, was, “How dare he call me little?” to the departing Black Rod, and in warmly welcoming Sir Michael was a big man, in a great office, that he Sir Freddie Viggers. carried out with exemplary loyalty and devotion to A rough estimate indicates that there have been this House and, above all, to the Crown. We will all 57 Black Rods since 1361 when a certain Walter miss him. We thank him sincerely, and we wish him Whitehorse got the job of supervising access to the well. House of Lords. The job has changed in the intervening 700 or so years, but perhaps never quite as rapidly as 11.16 am during the tenure of Sir Michael, the 57th Black Rod. Lord McNally: My Lords, I have said before that I Sir Michael took over from his predecessor barely four always think these occasions are rather like the scene months before that terrible autumn day, 9/11, when in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer where the boys hide the focus of his job shifted dramatically. in the loft listening to their own funeral service. I am As Black Rod knows better than any of us, Parliament sure Sir Michael will be pleased that not only is he in is a key target for any would-be terrorist attack and the “loft”, but so, too, are many of the staff who the fact that our working lives have continued with worked closely with him, who are listening to these serenity is not because of any lack of threat. It is due tributes. to the utter and constant vigilance of Sir Michael and 323 Black Rod[30 APRIL 2009] NATO: France 324 his team, who have seamlessly introduced mechanisms The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry that have kept us safe and Parliament accessible to of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, record numbers of visitors. I include among these first, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join mechanisms the new access control system, off-site me in offering sincere condolences to the family and mail screening and, shortly to come, the off-site vehicle friends of Lance Sergeant Tobie Fasfous from the 1st search facility. I suppose I also have to mention the Battalion Welsh Guards, who was killed on operations Corus barriers. in Afghanistan earlier this week. On the Question, I thank Sir Michael for keeping your Lordships following the historic step taken by France to rejoin safe, for all the marvellous parties and for the occasional the military structure of NATO, the alliance is working glimpses of Sugar. I wish him all the best in his new to agree the positions that France will assume in the post as charter commissioner at the Press Complaints NATO command structure. Commission. 11.22 am Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Baroness for that reply. Does the new co-operation The Lord Bishop of Southwark: My Lords, from between France and the other members of NATO these Benches we add our appreciation for the remarkable extend to the operation of nuclear submarines and service that Sir Michael has performed as Black Rod. co-ordination in that matter? If so, can we be satisfied As Bishops in the Church of England we know what it that there will be no more collisions such as the is to try to maintain confidence and stability when all unfortunate one a few months ago? around is changing. That has been Sir Michael’s calling, which he has performed with skill, humour and, at times, an appropriate righteous stubbornness. I also Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, the co-operation have to affirm that in his time the Bishops’ Robing does not extend to the nuclear side, where the situation Room has not been raided by the Metropolitan Police. remains as it was pre-President Sarkozy’s more recent We will miss him. decisions. On the collision, investigations are still going ahead. We are satisfied that there was no risk involved 11.23 am and we are looking at procedures to mitigate any risk The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, that may occur in the future. perhaps I could say a final word in tribute, focusing particularly on Black Rod’s responsibilities for security. Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I enjoin these When I came into post Sir Michael came to see me and Benches in the earlier tribute. Parallel to the very was extremely deferential and polite. He then informed welcome rejoining of NATO by France on the military me that when he needed to see me, he would see me side, has the noble Baroness seen any commensurate and I would be there. With that relationship, we have increase in France’s willingness to co-operate in terms continued, in perfect harmony. of defence equipment and procurement? Sir Michael has been particularly valuable to this House because the advice he has given on security Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, we certainly issues, at a time when that advice was of crucial welcome the increased commitment by France, although importance, has always been professional, as one would France has in fact been one of the top NATO contributors expect from his history, and his assessment of risk and for some years, in terms of troops and the funding of of the measures to obviate that risk has been of the operations. We are doing a great deal on equipment highest quality. However, that has always been tempered co-operation. The high-level working group is exploring by an understanding of and commitment to the need further ways of co-operation between the United for this place, this Parliament, to be accessible to staff, Kingdom and France. There are also other specific to Members and above all to the public whom we proposals, such as the United Kingdom/French helicopter serve. For that I have the highest gratitude. initiative, which is aimed at bringing together helicopters, We will miss him. He has left his particular training facilities and maintenance facilities to increase responsibilities in exceptionally good order. That, together the support that we can give in relation to helicopters with our limited knowledge of his successor, which on operations in Afghanistan. tells me that Sir Frederick will very quickly become Freddie on non-official occasions, means that we owe him an even greater debt of gratitude. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we on these Benches send our condolences, too, to the family and friends of Noble Lords: Hear, hear. Lance Sergeant Tobie Fasfous of the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards. Can the Minister comment on reports NATO: France that part of NATO supreme command headquarters may be relocated from the United States to France? Question 11.25 am Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, I do not think that that is the objective of the discussions that Asked By Lord Trefgarne are taking place. There has been speculation that a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what positions senior French officer will be located in the headquarters within the NATO military structure will be assumed in Norfolk, Virginia. There have not been suggestions by French officers when France rejoins the structure that we should move everything from Norfolk, Virginia, in the near future. to France. 325 NATO: France[LORDS] EU: External Action Service 326

Lord Tebbit: My Lords, will the noble Baroness Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful explain to those of us who do not have knowledge and to the noble Lord and to other noble Lords in this experience how one achieves a risk-free collision of House who help to keep me and my colleagues up to two nuclear submarines? It seems a bit odd. the mark. It is useful to have assiduous colleagues, such as the noble Lord, snapping at our heels, if I Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, the management might put it like that. Answers to Questions often do of risk is a challenging issue for many people in many not answer the question properly; as the noble Lord areas. The noble Lord, with his experience as a pilot, says, they are replies rather than answers. Quite often will know that risk mitigation is very much a part of we send the replies back, asking for answers. I think procedures in the airline industry, as it is in many areas we should be even more assiduous and do more of of defence, both in operations and in the normal that in future. workings of the industry. We can have minor collisions or minor accidents. It is appropriate that we make Lord McNally: My Lords, I associate myself with assessments of all the potential dangers and mitigate the compliment from the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, but any risks that may occur. can I ask the Lord President to clarify another matter? When I first started working in Whitehall, betting and gaming was the responsibility of the Home Office. It Questions for Written Answer: Late was then moved to DCMS. When I want to ask Answers questions or get advice on long-odds betting, is it now Question better to go to the DCMS or to the noble Lord, Lord West, in the Home Office? 11.30 am Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I would not Asked By Lord Tebbit bet on that. To ask the Leader of the House, further to her Written Answer on 4 March (WA 169-70), whether Earl Ferrers: My Lords, did the noble Baroness say she will ascertain what the constraints were which that part of the reason for the delay was that a new delayed the answer to Lord Corbett of Castle Vale’s piece of IT equipment had been introduced? What is Question for Written Answer tabled on 3 December the length of the extra delay that this machinery has 2008 until 3 March (WA 140-41) and that of Lord caused, and what was the cost of it? Hylton tabled on 8 December 2008 until 11 February (WA 196). Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I do not have the cost of that piece of equipment. Initially, The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall there were problems because of the introduction of a of Blaisdon): My Lords, I owe the House an apology. new IT system, but they have been resolved. I think The reply to the Question for Written Answer asked noble Lords will find that the Foreign Office has by the noble Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale, was stepped up to the mark and Questions are now being delayed due to the time taken to identify the document answered in the appropriate amount of time. in question, to confirm that it constituted an official document, to check whether it amounted to confidential advice to Ministers and to ensure that all concerned EU: External Action Service were content with the response. The reply to the Question Question for Written Answer asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, was delayed due to difficulties with the distribution and submission of Written Parliamentary 11.34 am Questions, following the introduction of a new IT Asked By Lord Pearson of Rannoch system in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office used for the drafting and dispatch of Written Parliamentary To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Questions. European Commission has started to train staff to serve in the European Union External Action Service, Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness as envisaged by the Lisbon Treaty; and, if so, what for that Answer. Is she aware that it gives me great long-term future they foresee for British Embassies. pleasure that, by tabling this Question, I have been able to support her efforts to persuade her colleagues The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to answer Written Questions in a more timely fashion? Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, no, the European The number outstanding for more than 14 days has Commission has not started to train staff specifically now fallen to 40 or so, as opposed to well over 100, to serve in the European External Action Service. This and we are all grateful to the noble Baroness for that. will only happen once the Lisbon treaty comes into But could she say why it was that when I asked the force and the EEAS is established. The European Question earlier as a Written Question, Ministers simply External Action Service is not about replacing our brushed it aside and ignored it? It is long overdue that embassies with union delegations. The treaty makes Ministers more often are given answers rather than clear that the EEAS shall, just replies to pass on to those who ask Written “work in co-operation with … the diplomatic services of the Questions in this House. Member States”. 327 EU: External Action Service[30 APRIL 2009] EU: External Action Service 328

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I am grateful That is exactly the case: the treaty makes it clear that for that Answer, which tries to convince us that the there should be no replacement of existing national octopus in Brussels is not putting a tentacle around embassies. yet another vital area of our national sovereignty. Is the noble Lord aware that an EU official admitted: Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My Lords, can the “We are trying to push the envelope as far as we can within the current environment”, Minister confirm that a great many of the people who are being trained and, eventually, employed are employed and that 530 Commission staff are being trained to in the chanceries accompanying the main offices and work in the new embassies, in addition to the missions that they do very important and extensive work and overseas? Can he tell your Lordships under which will always be needed? clause in the treaty of Nice all this is legal, and can he give us a firm guarantee that no British embassy will be closed as a result in the longer-term future? Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I am delighted to confirm that. If we look at the work of the Commission Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I would very much around the world on issues as wide-ranging as the like to and can give assurances to the noble Lord. environment, commerce, trade, transport and human First, the 500 people were trained as part of a regular rights, we see that they are a series of activities of ongoing training programme whose origins date back enormous importance. Most of us in the House believe to the establishment of Commission offices around it very important that the Commission carries out that the world as a result of the treaty of Maastricht. The work around the world. training programme was reorganised by my noble friend Lord Kinnock some years ago, so it is a routine Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, does the Minister part of the Commission’s work. There are now 130 have to hand the figures on how many overseas posts overseas Commission offices. Sometimes, that is confused the British Government have closed in the past five with the new external service, which is intended to years as a result of various cuts? Does he by any secure better co-ordination between the Commission chance have figures on how many member states of and the Council and is in no way intended to replace the United Nations the British Government no longer the embassies of member states. have permanent representation within? Does he accept that there are some advantages in sharing facilities in Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, I ask the Minister, small countries abroad? I am about to go to Reykjavik; because this all seems rather strange to me: do they I know that we share some facilities with the Germans train 530 people every year since the Maastricht treaty there and in several other countries. Are there not came into force? arguments on grounds of cost and efficiency for sharing facilities with other European Governments? Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that if they trained 500 people a year, Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I do not have we would have a very large external service. I cannot at those figures immediately to hand; they are unhappy this moment provide the annual figures, but the point figures which I prefer to forget between the occasions is that it involves people from different parts of the when I am asked about the subject. Like the noble European Commission who, as part of their work, Lord, I think that Britain’s representation abroad is need to engage with the broader Community. I will critical. We want to keep it as strong and universal as provide her with exact numbers. possible. However, where costs make that impossible, the fact that we can occasionally share offices with Lord Dykes: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, other European member states or, occasionally, even Lord Tebbit, will forgive me if I refer to the previous with the Commission is an economy measure which Question and express the gratitude of the House for allows us to be present in more places than would what he said about Written Questions. Although it otherwise be the case. was accidental and a normal procedure, it was fascinating to observe the change of sequence of the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, deferring to the noble Lord Hylton: My Lords, can the Minister explain Lord, Lord Tebbit, when on Monday it was the other what the procedures are for deciding on a joint EU way around. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, also demarche in a particular capital? Are these settled abandoned the previous text of his Question for this locally or does Brussels have to be consulted? one—quite rightly, because the previous text was totally incorrect in the fact that he was asserting. Does the Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, in most cases they Minister agree that the treaty text confirms in black are settled locally, where—under the current presidency, and white that, or where the president is not represented, the acting “the common foreign policy activity does not affect the member presidency in that country—demarches are settled on states’ own foreign policy priorities, nor national missions in both human rights and other issues. The Council of Ministers third countries and all international organisations”? or other organs in Brussels occasionally determine that such a demarche needs to be made, so the instruction Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I thank the noble can occasionally also come from Brussels. However, Lord: he saves me from having to read out precisely there is a lot of delegated freedom for European the same quotation, which is indeed as clear as can be. diplomats collectively to act locally on key issues. 329 EU: External Action Service[LORDS] Gurkhas 330

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords—with the Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank the leave of the House, as there are several minutes on the Minister for that Answer, but did not the Government clock—I do not think that I heard the noble Lord give fail to appreciate how extremely divisive the announced a clear, unequivocal guarantee that no British embassy criteria would be? I am thinking of the requirement to will be closed in future as a result of this initiative. Is have served for 20 years, when only officers are allowed he aware of the confidential internal EU memorandum to do so, with 15 years being the maximum for others. which recommends minimum disclosure of this initiative? In view of the Government’s defeat yesterday, will the Why would that be, if the noble Lord’s brief is correct? Statement later give all the information necessary? Will the changes that will be proposed as a result of Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, on the noble Lord’s yesterday’s defeat become effective immediately or will second point, we have sought and received assurances we have a date for when they will come into force? in writing from the Commission that no preparations are under way in this area prior to the approval of the treaty by all member states. There were initial routine Lord Brett: My Lords, the Government take seriously preparations under the Slovenian presidency in 2007, the role and views of Parliament. Therefore, a Statement which always happens when there are preparations for was made in the other place yesterday evening, which I a treaty to go into force, but those were suspended at will repeat later today. On numbers, one of the major the time of the loss of the Irish referendum and have difficulties seems to be the estimate from those who not been resumed. On his first point, I say again that are supporting the Gurkhas that only 100 people the purpose of this external action service is not to would benefit from the new government proposals, replace national embassies. What I cannot give the whereas the Government’s estimate, which was based noble Lord, obviously, is an assurance that the current on Ministry of Defence figures, was 10,000, as I have footprint of British national embassies around the just outlined. The test of this will be the examination world will remain exactly as it is for ever. Nor could I, of the 1,500 outstanding cases, which my colleague in in a sense hypothetically, tell him now what a Minister the House of Commons, the Minister responsible for standing at this Dispatch Box some years from now this, said would now be completed by the end of May. might claim as the reason for opening or closing That will give us a much closer estimate and enable us specific embassies. to see who is correct—those who are very pessimistic about the number who will enter or those in the Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords—as Government’s ranks who believe that the number will we have time on our side on this occasion—can the be in the area that I mentioned. Any new policy has to Minister recall how many embassies Her Majesty’s await the urgent examination of these cases and take Government needed in 1830 in order to conduct their account of the debate in the other place yesterday. international business? If he wants a bonus question, can he name more than half of them? Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I believe that it has been suggested that to allow all those who might want Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, this really is a new to come to this country would cost billions. What are example of talking out the clock. On his question, the those estimates based on? Is it, for example, pensions noble Lord will forgive me if I take the plunge and or housing? suspect that it was a very small number and that he would support the idea of British foreign policy today being conducted by such a small number of embassies. Lord Brett: My Lords, the totality of the figure is Let me also point out that in those days we did not £1.4 billion, which was based on the maximum of need embassies where we had an empire. 36,000 eligible ex-Gurkhas all taking up the option to come to the United Kingdom. In making estimates, one has to estimate the scenario that could be the most Gurkhas expensive. Some argue that fewer than that would wish Question to come. The figure will be tested in the debates next Tuesday, because the Minister responsible, Mr Woolas, 11.44 am will appear before a Select Committee on this issue. I Asked By Baroness Gardner of Parkes would rather await that examination than attempt one myself. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Gurkhas will qualify to live in the United Kingdom in consequence of the recent Home Office Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I have every announcement. sympathy with the Minister, who has, frankly, been dropped in it today in terms of this Question and the Lord Brett: My Lords, this Government recognise Statement later, but the reality is that the vote yesterday the courage, commitment and sacrifice that the Gurkhas in the other place was a major humiliation for this have given this country; indeed, they brought in rules Government and another nail in the coffin for what is for the first time giving ex-Gurkhas the right to settle clearly a dying Administration. When will the Government in the United Kingdom. Based on the revised guidance do the right thing and accept that all those who have published on 24 April 2009, the Government provisionally served in our forces, including the Gurkhas, should be estimate that over 4,000 Gurkhas and 6,000 of their given a right of settlement? When will they listen to dependants will meet the new qualifying criteria for the parliamentarians and to the vast majority of people settlement. in this country? 331 Gurkhas[30 APRIL 2009] Bournemouth Borough Council Bill 332

Lord Brett: My Lords, I appreciate the noble Lord’s a judgment that has to be made in the light of the sympathy. I feel more like a sacrificial goat than a decision in the other place. We have promised to sacrificial lamb, although I do not want to take that ensure that the cases of those in the pipeline are not at too far. This gives me a unique opportunity as a all prejudiced. Those who are being reviewed before Minister to say that the Liberals did not do a lot about the end of May, if they have passed the criteria, will be the Gurkhas when they were last in power. In fact, no granted leave. Those who have not will not be subject Government did until this Government. In 1997, we to any penalty or deportation until Parliament has introduced equal pay with the British Armed Forces had the opportunity to view and take a decision on and we have improved pensions. All the fairness that new policies that may emerge in the next few weeks. has been given to Gurkhas has come in the last decade. We believed that these regulations were full and fair, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, with reference met the spirit of the judgment in the High Court and to the statement made just now, those who will be would command the respect and support of Parliament. reviewed by that date in May will be reviewed on the However, it is clear from the views expressed in another present criteria of how many years, whether they have place that they have not achieved that last aim. Therefore, received a medal and so on. Decisions will be made on they will be looked at again over the next few weeks. It that divisive basis until that date in May, with any is promised that the outcome will be reported to the change happening after that. Is that correct? House before the Summer Recess. Lord Brett: My Lords, the noble Baroness says that Lord McNally: My Lords, the Minister is extremely it is divisive. Any criteria that take account of service fortunate that the late Lord Russell is no longer with other than 100 per cent of zero—in other words, us, as Conrad would now be on his feet giving details people have eligibility simply by being a member of of the many benefits that former Liberal Governments the Gurkhas at any time—will have to be cast in a gave to the Gurkhas. discriminatory sense; there will have to be a qualifying period below which you do not qualify and above Lord Brett: My Lords, I was a great fan of the late which you do. Taken with the other factors, that is Lord Russell, who was one of the clearest and most part of the package that has not found favour in interesting speakers to speak on any Bench in this another place, so we will be looking at it. The 20-year House. As a historian, he was excellent. Then again, factor produces a certain number, which will clearly the Liberals are quite good at history, but not quite so increase if the factor of seniority is reduced from good at the present time. 20 years, but that is a judgment to be made in the light of the examination of the outstanding cases, taking Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, does the £1.4 billion account of the sentiments of Parliament. relating to the 36,000 potential applicants take into account any taxes that they may have paid while they Arrangement of Business were serving as Gurkhas on behalf of this country? Announcement Lord Brett: My Lords, I am not sure whether the figure took account of tax, social cost and so on. 11.53 am Undoubtedly the area will be probed on Tuesday next Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave week and the answer will come forth, but I am more of the House, my noble friend Lord Brett will repeat than happy to commit to write to the noble Lord and the Statement on Gurkhas immediately after the debate to give the information as far as I can. in the name of the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater. Immediately afterwards, my noble friend Lord Malloch- Earl Ferrers: My Lords, would the noble Lord Brown will repeat the Statement on Sri Lanka. reflect back to what happened when Hong Kong went over to China? At that time there was tremendous pressure for those who lived in Hong Kong to be able Manchester City Council Bill [HL] to come to Britain if they wanted to. There was a terrible row because the Home Office did not want Bournemouth Borough Council Bill [HL] that. The officials said that there would be far too many people coming in. I was at the Home Office at Carryover Motion the time and I thought that they should be allowed in, Moved By The Chairman of Committees but I was told, “No, we can’t have it”. The result was that hardly anyone came in. If we gave the Gurkhas That the Commons message of 21 April be now the right to come here, maybe very few would do so, considered; and that the promoters of the Manchester but the ability to come would be a great comfort to City Council Bill [HL] and Bournemouth Borough them. Council Bill [HL], which were originally introduced in this House in Session 2006-07 on 22 January Lord Brett: My Lords, it is a great comfort to me to 2007, should have leave to proceed with the Bills in know that the noble Earl, who was a distinguished the current Session according to the provisions of Minister, found himself out of sympathy with Home Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). Office advice. I am clearly not the first to find myself in that situation. On the more substantive point, this is Motion agreed. 333 Canterbury City Council Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces 334

Canterbury City Council Bill Armed Forces Debate Leeds City Council Bill 11.55 am Moved By Lord King of Bridgwater Nottingham City Council Bill To call attention to the contribution made by British armed forces to the defence of the United Kingdom and to peace-keeping activities around Reading Borough Council Bill the world; and to move for Papers. Motion on Commons Message Moved By The Chairman of Committees Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I start with a That this House do agree with the order made by tribute to our Armed Forces that is neither facile nor the Commons set out in their message of 21 April. routine, but a genuine recognition on this day, when a memorial service is being conducted in Basra to those who have lost their lives in the Iraq campaign, of the Motion agreed. debt that we owe to our Armed Forces. Many criticisms have been made of the current campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, not least in your Lordships’ House, but Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for virtually none has been made about the conduct and Examining Officers) (Revision) Order 2009 outstanding performance of our Armed Forces in the circumstances in which they find themselves, some of which are extremely dangerous, where the loss of life could have been extremely high but where their courage, Transfer of Tribunal Functions (Lands professionalism and morale have saved the day. Tribunal and Miscellaneous Amendments) It is a sobering thought that we are discussing the Order 2009 involvement of our Armed Forces in two campaigns, both of which have already lasted significantly longer than either of the two world wars, and it is right that we should recognise at this time the price that they Freedom of Information (Time for have paid. In Iraq, just under 180 lives have been lost, Compliance with Request) Regulations and in Afghanistan, 150. But I include immediately 2009 those who have been very seriously and seriously injured. Earlier the Minister very properly expressed her condolences at the loss of another life, but I hope we never forget those whose lives will never be the Housing (Replacement of Terminated same again. In Iraq, there have been 220 very seriously Tenancies) (Successor Landlords) or seriously injured casualties, while during the first (England) Order 2009 three years of the Afghanistan campaign, from 2003-05, there were only 10. Over the past three years, however, Motions to Refer to Grand Committee there have been 185. I add also another category that is of increasing significance and about which there is a Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon real and increasing concern. I refer to those suffering That the draft orders and regulations be referred from mental health problems resulting from stress as a to a Grand Committee. result of the particularly difficult nature of these campaigns. Between 2003 and 2006 the number being managed for mental illness by the Defence Medical Motions agreed. Services was 2,300, but in 2007 alone the figure rose by a further 1,900. I do not have the figure for 2008, but I fear that it will continue to increase. Business of the House Against that background, we are concerned about the situation of our Armed Forces. Many noble Lords Timing of Debates and many Members of the other place have visited our Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon forces in the front line and, without exception, have come back with admiration for the morale, good That the debate on the motion in the name of spirits and enthusiasm of the troops they meet. However, Lord King of Bridgwater set down for today shall in a sense that is one of the great difficulties for those be limited to three and a half hours and that in the trying to assess correctly the morale of the Armed name of Baroness Knight of Collingtree to one and Forces. A tradition of loyalty to the regiment, loyalty a half hours. to friends and colleagues, and the discipline of a sergeant-major perhaps listening around a corner to Motion agreed. the answers being given to visiting dignitaries of one 335 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 336 sort or another makes it hard to get the real picture. in the desert beside the memorial to those who lost There is no question that we now face a very serious their lives in 1921 in another ill-fated Iraq expedition. situation indeed. It was all the more tragic to hear that against the I turn to the issue of resources in the widest context, background of the tributes now being paid to those even before the collapse of the Government’s financial who recently served in Iraq. The BBC report also said situation in terms of the public finances. This was that after six years of our activities the canals are full clearly described by no less an authority than the late of sewage, there is no regular supply of electricity and Sir Michael Quinlan, who knew about these issues as no clean water is available in Basra. That is a tragedy. much as anyone, as the most difficult defence budget In the Prime Minister’s Statement on Afghanistan position he could remember. Given the procurement and Pakistan yesterday he sought to adjust current issues as well, it is an unsustainable position. We are policies to the realities of the situation. I wonder facing serious overstretch. We have far too many “pinch whether among his voracious reading he has ever read points”, as they are described, particularly in the Winston Churchill’s first book, The Malakand Field Army, even among infantrymen. This means that, Force. I do not know whether noble Lords are familiar with the demands we make on them, we cannot abide with it. I direct them to chapter 6, which is an account by the manning balance—having the number of troops of the challenges faced when there is an uprising required to discharge their undertakings. A year ago it against the Government, led by tribesmen who have was forecast that the Army would not be back in taken up arms under religious fanatic leaders who manning balance before 2011. This is the challenge seek to establish an Islamic caliphate. For those not we face. familiar with where Malakand is, it is just next door to Distinguished and gallant noble Lords in this House Swat, which at this very moment has been handed over will say that the Army will always rise to a short-term by the Pakistan Army to the kind auspices of the challenge. It will always meet short-term extra-stress Taliban. The lessons from history are all before us. requirements of that kind. If the challenge is continuous One of the difficulties we have got into is that we and there is no end in sight, however, it becomes a did not drawn on the resources of history, most of all serious problem. In the Continuous Attitude Survey in this country, enormously well contained in the conducted on an annual basis, a poll of 36 per cent of Foreign Office. We have a reservoir of experience in those serving revealed that the majority did not feel our former and current ambassadors. One of the valued, were dissatisfied with their equipment and tragedies for the United States and our country is that resources and were concerned about the impact on the State Department, with all its experience, was their personal and family life. Their intention to leave sidelined and the Pentagon took over. In our country, had been increased. The family strain is particularly insufficient attention was paid to the experience and serious not necessarily for the youngest recruits and knowledge of those who could have given guidance, the newest members of the Armed Forces but for that not least in the Foreign Office. In any activity of this key core structure of more experienced officers and kind, for us to be a force for good, diplomacy is senior NCOs who are the essential fabric of our infinitely preferable to armed force. We need to use the Armed Forces and whose family responsibilities are a resources of history, which are important in determining major challenge. My purpose, against this background, the likely attitude of our allies. One of the biggest is to discuss what our duty is in this House and to try disappointments at present is our failure to get more to impress on the Government what our duty should help and genuine wide support from NATO allies in be to those who serve us so well, both those who serve the challenges we face. us now and those whose contribution has already been made. It is our duty to ensure that our troops are properly Those who talk about our Armed Forces as a force equipped and supported. The financial pressures that for good in different parts of the world have first to we face are inevitable. That will mean a major ensure that when we ask them to embark on these reassessment, whether or not it becomes a major review. undertakings they have realistic objectives in a realistic There must be some shift in the resources to meet the timeframe. We know the challenges we faced in Iraq needs of the challenges of current insurgencies, and at when we went from being liberators to an occupation this stage that may be in preference to the resources for force. In Afghanistan the latent hatred that has existed conventional warfare that might arise in the future. for hundreds of years against the foreign invader can There is also the duty of aftercare. We pay tribute all too easily be roused up against people whose to the dead, but I have already said that we should intentions are benevolent. recognise the importance of casualties, whatever form We need good intelligence. I do not mean immediate they might take. I notice that Dr Liam Fox, the intelligence, such as the issue over the dossier, but an shadow defence spokesman in another place, talked understanding of history. Noble Lords may have noticed about the mental health time bomb. Certainly, there recently that the Parliamentary Office of Science and are some worrying statistics. I know that the Government Technology issued a paper entitled Lessons from History, have recognised some aspects of this but there must be which asked why should we use history for policy a much more proactive follow-up, not just letting making. It was talking about science and technology, people come forward in the end if they think they are but why not use history also for our foreign affairs and suffering, but careful aftercare for all those who have defence? It is interesting to look at learning the lessons served in these difficult circumstances. of history. I do not know how many noble Lords I declare a slight family interest in this. I had the heard today the BBC reporter who was on his way to opportunity to speak to the Veterans Minister two the memorial service at Basra but was actually standing days ago. One of the tragedies for the Armed Forces is 337 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 338

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] General Willcocks, who served with me in the that a number of our ex-service people who have come Ministry of Defence and then with me at NATO as back from serving in Afghanistan and Iraq are now Britain’s military representative. He was outstanding homeless, unemployed and facing serious personal in Bosnia and other areas of conflict, and we wish circumstances. One imaginative approach to this, which him well. I hope the Government will pick up in a significant Of course, we will all pay tribute to our troops and substantial way, is the pioneering work of the today, which is right and proper. I will certainly do so. Community Self Build Agency. People without jobs The noble Lord, Lord King, has pointed out their and housing, under certain arrangements, can be sacrifices and some of the continuing problems, and I encouraged to build their own homes, rehousing subscribe to everything that he said. We need to go themselves and, in the process, rebuilding their lives. beyond words. Fine debates here and in the other That therapy is very effective. place do not necessarily make a lot of difference. We I am delighted at how many noble Lords wish to pay tribute to the fine professionals out there, most of speak in this debate. The background is that our whom are very young, who serve this country and the Armed Forces have performed outstandingly for us, international cause. We are reminded by the death of but in many significant ways we have let them down. a Welsh Guardsman this week of the price paid by We are not giving them the support, the resources or them in the defence of liberty of this country and the the clear, realisable objectives that they should have wider world community. been entitled to expect in return for the courage that they have shown. We have been warned that there is a I pay tribute to the civilians who also help our real risk that our Armed Forces—the Prime Minister forces in theatre, because they share some of the referred to them yesterday as the finest in the world—could dangers as part of the reconstruction element and be relegated to the second division in terms of all-round they deserve commendation for their support of our capability and the quality and scale of the resources troops. I associate my sentiments with the noble Lord, and the training that are available to them. If that did Lord King, in praising the families of our service happen it would have a serious impact on our standing personnel. Without their support and stoic in the world and our ability to be an influence for good undertakings, our troops would not be able to do the in the world. job. I remember in my period during the Kosovo campaign talking to spouses and family members. The previous Prime Minister, in a speech that he The strain is enormous and permanent. It is not easy made in Plymouth towards the end of his premiership, to resolve, so they deserve commendation from us as said: well. “The nation must decide what we want our country to do and then fund it”. The noble Lord, Lord King, mentioned mental That was a valedictory message that was not carried health and post-traumatic stress disorder, which is an forward. If there is continuing severe overstretch, increasing problem given the nature of modern war. I restrictions on adequate training and shortage of have a vivid memory of going to Omagh as Defence appropriate equipment there is genuinely a risk that Secretary after the bomb and talking to the troops we will be relegated. We must not let that happen. It there. Hardened infantry soldiers, trained in the art of would be the greatest betrayal of our Armed Forces defence and used to using their arms were absolutely who have served us so well. Governments are the affected by the carnage they saw in the streets there. trustees for the nation of our Armed Forces during They may have been used to battlefield casualties, but their period in office. Obviously there is the prospect—it they could not cope with babies blown apart, small might be said the reality—that there may be new children destroyed in the streets of that small village trustees in place shortly. There is no doubt that the in Northern Ireland. I remember sharing the trauma challenges that they face will be as great as any incoming with them and advising them that mental injury is as Government have faced in terms of our defence capability. great a problem as physical injury and that they must I beg to move. take steps to make sure that they retain their strength and their sanity. Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I ask There are so many issues that could be dealt with the House to note that there is absolutely no leeway on here; the noble Lord has dealt with many of them and the time allotted to speakers. I associate myself with him. Let me make comments about three areas. One is about NATO. Our troops serve under a NATO flag in Afghanistan today, but 12.13 pm NATO is not some amorphous organisation; it is not Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: My Lords, this is a the European Commission, it is not the United timely and fortunate opportunity for us to debate the Nations, it is simply the product of 26—about to be role of our armed services. I commend and thank the 28—individual nation states and it is as good or as noble Lord, Lord King, for giving us this opportunity bad as those nation states make it. To characterise to talk about these serious issues. He and I have both NATO as some great amorphous force is to had responsibility for the great office of state in completely misunderstand the nature of the charge of the Ministry of Defence and we know how organisation. I know that Ministers are looking at complicated and difficult it can be. Since it essentially NATO at the moment with the idea of reform. A new revolves round people, their welfare and Secretary-General is about to take office, the former consideration are high on the priority list. It is Prime Minister of Denmark, and we all wish him interesting that we said farewell today to Black Rod, well. He has impeccable credentials. Reform must be 339 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 340 high on the agenda. Getting NATO to operate as an to meet the targets. As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, integrated command, as it was originally designed, suggested, our Armed Forces are involved in a major where the risks, the burdens and the credit get shared, structural alliance that was designed for another era. must be high on the agenda. The fact that NATO now includes Poland suggests I would like to say how pleased I am that France that something that was designed to combat the Warsaw has now fully rejoined the integrated military Pact is totally out of date. All our structures and our command. The terms on which it has rejoined are a thinking need to be attacked from that point of view, huge bonus. It appears that a French general will take and it is from there that we need to go on. over in Allied Command Transformation in Norfolk, As the noble Lord, Lord King, said, the fact that we Virginia. This is a post that was created under my are fighting an ongoing conflict means that we should stewardship, replacing the old Allied Command fundamentally deal with that conflict, because it will Atlantic. Transformation command was designed to be a long slog. People have suggested that there might make sure that the United States and its allies would be elements of engagement there for decades, so we always be able to work together. A French general, must make sure that our troops on the ground have committed to strong European forces as part and the appropriate equipment and the appropriate structure parcel of the alliance, is a great bonus that we can to deal with this. This argument is not that new. The look forward to. minute that the Cold War was seen to be over and On British domestic defence, I conducted a other disputes broke out—the Balkans being the classic Strategic Defence Review in 1997 and 1998 and I am one—the idea of smaller, peacekeeping units trying to glad that I got a lot of support and input from get between not very sophisticated armies, using cheap, previous Defence Secretaries and Defence Ministers mass-produced weapons with which the world is still at that time. It still remains the template for what we awash, was seen to be the format in which we should do in the world today, but 10 years is too long. It has be specialising. How far have we engaged in making had additional chapters and has been refined in sure that this is the case? Is our investment in the right certain ways, but it is time now for a fundamental type of technology? Main battle tanks might have Strategic Defence Review, because the circumstances been quite useful when we rolled into Iraq, but we of 2009 are not the circumstances of 1998. This discovered that we did not need them. Our light armour Government should start it and, whatever happens was quite sufficient for the job, because our enemy after the election, it should be continued. It should be simply cannot match us. Are we liable to meet someone done in the way we did it in 1997 and 1998—openly, there? Are we going to invest in new forms and structures transparently, inclusively and fundamentally, looking of defence? at every capability that we have and whether it is Can NATO be developed into something that will necessary or needs to be augmented. It has to be enhance that role? Having read some of the NATO based on the national security interests and foreign articles, I have come to the conclusion that it thinks policy of this country. Only in that way will we be able that to still be relevant it must take on much more this to properly deliver defence forces for the future and to role of peacekeeping, monitoring and helping. This justify the faith that troops have on the ground as role will also probably seem more attractive to its well. newer members. We must make sure that we do not Afghanistan is a place where our troops are caught give nationalistic politicians in Russia an excuse for up just now. I have not got time to go into it in detail, going clinging back to nurse, saying “We are still being but I simply say this—there is a disconnect between persecuted”. We should try to move away from what is the bravery and professionalism of the people who left of the confrontational structure. fight out there and the people in this country who do not understand sufficiently that their safety is I shall move on to talk about the support and care connected to that bravery and that commitment. We, of our service men and women. Both noble Lords the political leadership in this country, have an have spoken about combat stress, and I endorse what obligation and a fundamental responsibility to make they have said. Let us not fool ourselves. Combat sure that people understand why they are out there, stress is only a part of the problem. We are discovering why they are making that sacrifice and why it is that those who leave the Armed Forces, particularly in connected to our safety and security in this country. the junior ranks, seem to be particularly badly prepared for civilian life. These people often join the Army young and then do not have to deal with the mundane 12.20 pm difficulties of life, such as organising how to pay bills, Lord Addington: My Lords, this is one of those where you go and what you do, and how to find debates where you look at the list of speakers and accommodation. They might have low literacy skills tremble slightly. I do not know whether my words will and so on; I have discovered that the Army is one of add to the greater volume of knowledge by the end of the better employers of dyslexics. The Army gives this debate, but I will certainly acquire greater knowledge. them structure and help but they are then, after X number of years, effectively dumped on the street. It was a problem that I could find very little to disagree with in what the noble Lord, Lord King, said; They are then told, as the noble Lord has said, that virtually nothing until his last couple of sentences. they can get help if they ask for it: “If you fill in form The fact is that we are in an ongoing war, for which we XBY, turn up on time, in the right place and say the were not prepared and for which our Armed Forces right thing, you will get help”. That is a recipe for only were not really designed. We have prepared on the those who least need it getting the best help; only hoof our level of equipment, design and tactics to try those with parents who are capable of assisting them, 341 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 342

[LORD ADDINGTON] who must then be isolated and dealt with. We must for instance. Let us face it: these people will not be that have better directed and more quickly implemented young when they leave. The Ministry of Defence should financial aid. have a good look at the experience of, say, the department We must also work as closely as possible with for education in getting support and help for people. Pakistan. It was good to hear the Pakistani president The Armed Forces should take on board the idea that welcome the initiative of President Obama, giving us only the middle class, who can probably subsidise hope that we can, despite all of Pakistan’s very real these things, get the help because it is difficult to internal problems, work together in some common access through bureaucracy. They should make their cause, to our mutual benefit and for the benefit of the help available to those who need it. peace of the world. In conjunction with our well I hope that the Minister can respond to that. How motivated, highly professional American and Canadian well does he think that the Armed Forces are doing in friends, and with others from a still somewhat lukewarm ensuring that their support for ex-servicemen gets to NATO, all of that will require our best shots. At the those who need it most? moment, we have no alternative but to provide and sustain them, fortified by the wonderful sense of duty 12.27 pm and esprit de corps of our Armed Forces that the noble Lord, Lord King, brought out so well. Lord Bramall: My Lords, over the course of many debates on defence and the Armed Forces, I and a Finally, while the Secretary of State has a significant number of other noble, and noble and gallant, Lords war to oversee and manage, he has another major have cautioned, warned and, when that was predictably problem: a virtual black hole between established to no avail, criticised the Government fairly and not requirements and the resources that the Treasury is unreasonably. It is now generally recognised that, among likely to make available. If the Treasury is to get its other things, we should not have charged into Helmand pound of flesh, as it usually does, that will require province of all places, in the south of Afghanistan. We some very hard decisions, particularly if our best-shot had, at first, token forces and totally inadequate weapons, operations in Afghanistan are to be fully supported vehicles and munitions. We were still committed and sustained, and those personnel matters such as significantly in Iraq and in pursuit of an unrealistic medical, housing and welfare—the ones that fall off aim and strategy. If anything, that made the terror the bottom when you try to squeeze a quart into a pint situation worse, not better, and a price had to be paid pot—are not to suffer in a way that would rupture the in significant battle casualties. military covenant, now so generally recognised as essential for the well-being of our Armed Forces. That Now, poised as we are on the brink of a new means that the higher-spending items of equipment strategy in Afghanistan and with an all-embracing will have to be looked at rigorously. funding problem, this may well be an opportune moment to remind the Government to face up to realities and What we really need is a proper defence review, but their responsibilities. I congratulate the noble Lord, that will clearly not happen before the next general Lord King of Bridgewater, on this debate and on election. Meanwhile, a similar intellectual rigour will introducing it with his customary penetrating clarity have to be turned on the more expensive items in the bred from considerable experience, all of which I current three to five-year spending cycle. Of course, warmly endorse. what is kept in or left out is a matter for the chiefs of staff to recommend as they, chaired by the Chief of Noble and noble and gallant Lords have also made Defence Staff, try to find that difficult balance between some, I hope, helpful suggestions in these debates. It is the most urgent operational needs and what the longer to the Government’s credit that, over the past two term may require if our forces are to be capable years or so, the Ministry of Defence has made strenuous of taking part in any wider and more sophisticated efforts to get our Helmand force in better balance and conflict. That capability cannot be produced from a provide the proper equipment and supplies to support, standing start. sustain and protect our land and air forces in that area, where they still have such a difficult job to do. We must look again in more detail at how we spend However, it is equally clear that, as a result of the our money in the context of, perhaps, a more flexible urgency of all this, and because of continuous approach to our independent nuclear deterrent and cheeseparing over the past 10 years or so, they now what exactly follows Trident, and when, and, certainly, have a fundamental funding problem on their hands, with the general recognition that, since the Cold War, accentuated by the recent Budget, of which more in a the world scene and the scale of urgency of future moment. threats have changed considerably. We cannot However, we are now committed to Afghanistan automatically feel bound by old Cold War cries and and, for many compelling reasons, there can be no clichés such as, “You must have four and not three going back in the foreseeable future. Indeed, our best nuclear submarines, because there must always be one hope is wholly to support the United States, to the on station”. Indeed, I was surprised to hear the noble limit of our resources, in its new, more enlightened Lord, Lord Malloch-Brown, repeat that in an otherwise strategy, with a strong—albeit temporary, I hope—surge wide-ranging and flexible summing-up of a foreign of forces to give people in that vulnerable area proper affairs debate. rather than fleeting protection, with less talk of democracy The same intellectual rigour needs to be applied to and more of stability. There must be meaningful the carrier argument. The Royal Navy has tasks that negotiations and financial inducements which fall upon it regularly in peace and war—some on every could help separate the moderates from the fanatics, day of the week—while we should take into account 343 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 344 the new dimension of piracy. In order for it to do those the world of today and tomorrow—is a badge that a tasks, we should look at whether the Navy would prefer country like Britain needs, because it demonstrates two less than fully equipped carriers with greatly reduced that the nation is a world power worthy of respect. I and, I would suggest, insufficient small surface ships believe, rather, that Britain is more likely to be respected and killer submarines or, perhaps, one fully equipped if it is prepared to play its part in peacemaking and carrier with everything required to fly off it and to peacekeeping by supplying Armed Forces who are protect it and, perhaps, rather more ships for their professional, disciplined, and well resourced with the everyday tasks. personnel and equipment needed to respond quickly There is no doubt, then, that the Secretary of State and flexibly whenever and wherever they are needed. has some real problems on his hands. I hope that the Would the estimated £20 billion needed to upgrade Minister will give us some idea how the Government Trident not be better spent in that way? are facing up to those problems and how they are likely to be resolved in the near future, while ensuring 12.37 pm a proper defence of the United Kingdom against a variety of eventualities, and proper support for our Lord Sterling of Plaistow: My Lords, although I foreign policy and interests abroad—whether that involves have had the honour of being a member of your Lordships’ peacekeeping, enforcement or something even more House since 1991, I have rarely taken part in a debate as decisive and intense altogether. I was, until quite recently, the executive chairman of P&O. I have the honour of being an honorary commodore of the Royal Navy, heavily involved with the reserves 12.34 pm over the past two decades, with the advantage of knowing The Lord Bishop of Southwark: My Lords, I too and exchanging views over many years with the various am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord King, for Chiefs of Staff of all our defence services, particularly enabling this important issue to be debated in your those presently in command. Lordships’ House in these troubling times. In this I also have the pleasure of being chairman of brief intervention I shall argue that, honoured and Motability, which, some 25 years ago, took over the respected though the British Armed Forces might be, responsibility of providing adapted cars for all our as the noble Lord, Lord King, indicated in his speech, disabled servicemen. At the moment some 17,000 they are presently so stretched in both personnel and recipients are eligible, of which today many thousands resources that their effectiveness is close to being have Motability cars. I want to share an experience dangerously at risk. that I had last year, at Motability’s 30th anniversary Obviously, in the shadow of the financial crunch it celebrations at the Royal Hospital Chelsea. Her Majesty is not easy to find ever more money for the Armed the Queen was handing over keys to newly disabled Forces but, following the speech of the noble and servicemen. The Queen then spoke to a young 20 year-old gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, I suggest that substantial Royal Marine; he was accompanied by his carer and sums could be released if Her Majesty’s Government was recovering at that marvellous hospital, Headley were to decide not to proceed with upgrading the Court. Both his legs had been blown off above the Trident nuclear weapon system. Nor is that simply a thigh. A fine athlete at school, he had passed out only financial matter; I, like many of your Lordships, am of seven months earlier in front of his proud family. For the generation that grew up under the shadow of the me it was a most poignant moment. What of his Cold War, and it is at least arguable that in those dark future? He could have been my grandson. This, I days the world was, through the nuclear deterrent, suppose, is the cost of war, or perhaps a more correct spared a horrific global war which would have been way of looking at it is that this is the cost of peace. I catastrophic even using conventional weapons. could not support more strongly the views expressed As your Lordships are aware, toward the end of by my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater with those deeply worrying times, in 1968, the United Nations regard to casualties in the armed services and their sponsored the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The families. There has been some improvement but it is signatories agreed a three-pronged deal. The nations still shaming for all of us that there has been such without nuclear weapons would not seek to develop reluctance to get the proper support for these brave them, provided that those with nuclear weapons agreed young men and women who serve their country with a to progressively disarm, while knowledge for the peaceful total sense of duty and pride, putting their lives on the use of nuclear energy would be shared. It was also line at our behest. agreed that the signatories would meet at the UN In recent times our armed services have been every five years to review progress; I understand that actively engaged in conflict for some 25 years, and for such a meeting is planned for next year. Her Majesty’s its size we probably have the most battle-hardened, Government argue that they have honoured the treaty experienced and professional defence force in the by reducing the total number of nuclear warheads and world. Apart from our deep involvement in Afghanistan their delivery systems, but that argument lacks conviction and Iraq, the Royal Navy is leading the European if upgrading the Trident system results in the possession Union naval force, whose operating headquarters is at of fewer but more powerful and sophisticated nuclear Northwood, where it also runs the Maritime Security weapons. The moral, and perhaps legal, case against Centre (Horn of Africa). At this very moment oil countries such as Iran, North Korea, Pakistan and tankers and LNG carriers are traversing the Gulf of India developing their own nuclear weapons is Aden en route to our shores. Energy security is critical subsequently weakened. and a natural role for our Navy. Protecting our trade Some argue that the possession of nuclear weapons— routes has always been, and will continue to be, crucial whether or not they could ever be of practical use in to this country. 345 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 346

[LORD STERLING OF PLAISTOW] This is a busy week for the Armed Forces. Many of Our Chiefs of Staff and senior officers of our us will have seen on television this morning the defence services are highly talented and experienced, moving ceremony that took place in Basra, which was and the present Secretary of State for Defence is a timely reminder of the price that our service men deeply committed to their strategic needs and is strongly and women pay day in and day out for carrying out supportive of their endeavours. Nevertheless, as has our foreign policy. Yesterday, a decision was made in been said, they can do only so much with limited relation to the Gurkhas. I have no doubt that that will resources. Defence reviews have pretty well become come up in the debate. I think that the right decision shorthand for cuts. The most recent will have the effect was reached in the end. I look forward to my noble of our not being able to fulfil our present undertakings friend Lord Brett repeating the Statement made in and certainly will not meet the needs of the procurement another place. I hope the Government do not become programme already agreed. too defensive and that the Opposition do not crow Should we be Treasury-driven or policy-driven? We too much, as I recall that when I was chairman of the have reached a critical crossroads at this time and Armed Forces Pay Review Body the Gurkhas were there is no way we could seriously engage in another treated appallingly as a result of government policy. It area of conflict without reducing forces in other was good to see the new Labour Government improve areas. Of course, I am more than aware of our present the Gurkhas’ pensions and the conditions for them financial challenges, but the world moves on and in and their families. Earlier, the noble Earl, Lord my view these cuts are hugely short-sighted and we Ferrers, mentioned Hong Kong. I was in Hong Kong are putting our heads in the sand. Not to play with just before the handover. The Gurkhas were extremely words, I say that it is no less than appeasement. There worried then about their and their families’ future. It are still many in this House who not only remember is not surprising that many of them did not come the dangers of appeasement but risked their lives in here, because the conditions imposed were such that active duty because of it, of which the noble and they were not encouraged to do so. I am delighted at gallant Lord, Field Marshall Lord Bramall, knows the decision reached yesterday. better than most. My own company, P&O, suffered During this busy week the Prime Minister made a huge losses in both world wars. Before it is too late, very welcome visit to our Armed Forces in Afghanistan. this great country of ours must have a major strategic He then travelled to Pakistan. Certainly, Pakistan has debate on the role of our defence forces for the to be at the centre of our attention regarding what we future—a key part of our national security. It must be do in the future. I am not someone who believes a debate which I sincerely hope will come to a rapid everything I read in the press, rather the opposite, but and positive conclusion. I was somewhat concerned to read a little paragraph I believe that we have a moral duty, if that is not an this morning which said that the Prime Minister had outdated expression in this day and age, to have a rejected the advice of the Chiefs of Staff and the response force of a size and flexibility that in time of Secretary of State for Defence to send 2,000 more need is both a deterrent and has the capability to help, service personnel to Afghanistan. Instead, 700 will be for example, members of the Commonwealth. It is too sent on a temporary basis. It would be helpful if the easily forgotten how they flocked to help us in the past Minister could comment on that. two world wars and other conflicts. Many small countries I wish to concentrate on the enormous throughout the world still look to us for leadership, contribution that our Armed Forces have made to the help and protection in these uncertain times. Sadly, the interface with civilians not just in a peacekeeping role world is not only unlikely to change in the near future, but in operational theatres. I have seen this for myself indeed it is likely to become even more dangerous. If and have never failed to be amazed at the work that such a debate concluded that this was the right way they do. Unlike people from other international forward but that it would take, say, 3 to 3.5 per cent of organisations and, indeed, services who stay safely in our GDP, I for one would say so be it. It is our duty. their vehicles, clearly marked with a big cross, or As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, said, it is vital whatever, British troops are out on the street with that everybody in this country fully understands the civilians, talking to them and getting to know them. I reasons for such a decision and is strongly supportive was particularly struck by our troops’ attitude to of it. women. When I went to the Balkans I coincidentally The defence of the realm and our future role in the met some local women. I saw 18 year-old servicemen international world is the first duty of Government, confidently talking to young women who were and therefore their key priority. I hope noble Lords ignored by the men in their own community because will agree that it is very much the responsibility of they had been raped. It was an enormous privilege this House, and indeed of Parliament itself, to ensure to observe those young soldiers comforting those that the right decisions are made. Time is not on our women and their children. side. In Afghanistan, General McColl and his soldiers protected women attending the Parliament. Now 25 per cent of its members are women. That is a substantial 12.44 pm contribution to peacekeeping for which the British Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, I, Armed Forces deserve credit. Anyone who meets them too, welcome this timely debate and thank the noble cannot fail to be impressed by them. However, words Lord, Lord King, for initiating it. It is a pleasure to see do not mean very much unless we do something. the noble Baroness, Lady Park, in her place and Following a service that was held in the abbey and a taking part in this debate. reception in the Palace of Westminster, I was surprised 347 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 348 by how many Members of this House said, as if they policy. I do so not only out of a profound admiration were astonished, “Aren’t they wonderful?”. It was as if of and gratitude for the Gurkhas’ loyal and courageous noble Lords were not fully aware of what our Armed service but also because it is in our national interest Forces do. That leads me to the point made by my to encourage settlement of Gurkhas in this country noble friend Lord Robertson about the disconnect. and to use their skills, not least in the area of civil We have to do something about the disconnect between defence. what we are trying to do in Afghanistan and, I hope, The Command Paper The Nation’s Commitment, Pakistan, and how we get that across to the British presented by the Secretary of State for Defence in July population because they are not swinging around in last year, recognises that there is an important Armed support of it. That is understandable, but we have a Forces constituency and speaks rightly of the responsibility in that area. Government’s duty not to legislate without taking, Much needs to be done and more resources are “account of the impact on the Armed Forces’ constituency and needed, but let us be objective in our debates, as this the strategic effect on the Armed Forces when making policies or House is. Headley Court was mentioned by the noble considering legislative proposals”. Lord, Lord Sterling. How right he is. I was privileged Have the Prime Minister and the Treasury remembered to take members of the House of Lords Defence that? I think they need to do so before they take Group to visit Headley Court about 18 months ago. decisions on troops for Afghanistan, and I hope the Headley Court’s limb provision had come from being defence chiefs will be listening. appalling, relying on the National Health Service, to Without 3,000 Gurkhas, we should have been in being the national winner of limb provision for service grave difficulty in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder men and women who had lost arms or legs in the just how carefully the Government have considered defence of this country. At the end of that enormously the advantage to our defence capacity that would uplifting visit the Defence Group said as a whole that accrue from a Gurkha presence in this country. There we were quite happy to support Headley Court, and are the obvious ones, such as their power to play a we asked what it would like us to go back and lobby pivotal role in response to such emergencies as flooding, for or raise. The answer was that it did not want us to the foot and mouth crisis and in helping to sustain ask for anything because the money that it had asked essential public services. They are disciplined, practical to be spent on Headley Court had been spent, as we and could surely form the basis of a paramilitary could see. That is an area of progress. territorial force to deal with major civil crises, including I certainly welcome the additional resources for the protection of our trade on the high seas perhaps, Armed Forces housing in the Budget, and the leaving the regular military forces free to operate improvements in pensions and medical services, although abroad. We are looking at a body of men who could I exclude entirely the support for Armed Forces personnel join the police or work for the security contractors with mental health problems. We really have to get to who work for the UK Border Agency. The recent grips with that issue. Perhaps we need to discuss it Cabinet Office report, Security in a Global Hub, makes more than we do. clear what an important area this is. I believe that our services are overstretched. The last Strategic Defence Review was absolutely first-class. We must expect, very probably, a rather disturbed I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is society for a time, thanks to the economic crisis. That in his place. I remember well not so much the debates may lead to civil unrest and encourage disruptive or but the consultation about it. It is easy to say that we violent elements, including disturbed, volatile and angry need more resources. They may well come through a young men. We already have a relentless tide of immigrants new Strategic Defence Review, which is direly needed without the skills that the Gurkhas have. Many of now. If we had another, it could raise the issues and them will take time to assimilate to our society and the challenge that we need more resources for our way of life, if they ever do. They are likely to need Armed Forces and the defence budget. I would support more from the state than they contribute. The Gurkhas, that. Where would the money come from? It would Buddhists, will form an element of peaceful integration, mean less for other areas. We need that debate, which rather than an alien culture wishing to impose its own will be helped by the more overt presence of our laws. The Rights and Responsibilities paper from the Armed Forces in our community, such as the marches Secretary of State for Justice recognises the possibility when they come back. We can see how the general of that more volatile society. It states: population respond to them. I very much welcome this “Our country is changing and faces new and profound challenges. debate and support entirely the call for a Strategic At such times, people need reassurance that the structures which support them in their daily lives are robust. They need to know Defence Review. That will help us to take the necessary that their liberty and freedoms are secure”. steps for our service men and women and their families, who deserve our support and without whom we could The Gurkha community would make a positive not do what we are trying to do. contribution. They are disciplined, practical human beings, who will adjust to our society and form a stable element. They will be very employable. This 12.52 pm country will be the loser if the Gurkhas are virtually Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I must excluded. We need them. I urge the Government to apologise to the House for the fact that you are about think again in the national interest. Why, indeed, are to hear a speech about the Gurkhas, because I was HMG ignoring the words in Command Paper 724, quite unaware of the wonderful events that were due which expressly includes the Gurkhas under foreign to happen last night. I want to speak about them to and Commonwealth service personnel, recognises their urge on HMG to make a real reappraisal of their unique circumstances and pledges action by the UK 349 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 350

[BARONESS PARK OF MONMOUTH] or the absence of proper numbers, which is what that Border Agency? I believe that both honour and the really means in English, of skilled service people to fill nation’s interest require HMG to think again. important posts. That is experienced in all three services. When I wrote this speech I thought that I only had He must also protect them from insufficient research four minutes—so noble Lords are spared much. But I into technology and into other areas on which future would like to say, as I meant to say at the beginning of operational capabilities will depend. At the moment, my speech, that we are all deeply indebted to the noble all those things are brought about by a lack of resources. Lord, Lord King, for giving us this opportunity at a Stories of failure in those quarters are, unfortunately, critical time. I am sure that the rest of the debate will legion and their effect on recruitment and retention be fascinating. are well known. They all derive from the old sin, committed by all Governments, of failing to match 12.57 pm commitments to the resources that they are prepared Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, it does not to devote. begin to do justice to the occasion to begin my speech The Secretary of State also has to see that our with the customary reference to the pleasure that it forces are provided with what may be called a war aim gives me to follow my predecessor. It is a delight to that is defined clearly and convincingly and seen to be welcome back to our debates my noble friend, who both worthy and winnable. Public support for what has just pleased us with her speech about the Gurkhas, the forces are called on to do will always demand that, which I hope will receive great consideration. Having as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Inge, has frequently sat next to my noble friend for the last 10 or 11 years, I said. In the first Gulf War, the question that he was never doubted her resolution to come back after her most frequently asked by soldiers was, “Is the country long and regrettable absence through disability. We behind us?”. On that occasion they could be reassured welcome her very warmly. about that, but these days, in my experience, there is There could hardly be a more timely moment for far less assurance of it. The Government have much my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater to have more to do before there is the same measure of support given us the opportunity for this debate. We are on the for our operations in Afghanistan. To put it bluntly, verge of completing our military withdrawal from there is a feeling in the country that the war there Iraq, save for a few detachments. Our troops are against the Taliban is unwinnable and I would be coming back at the conclusion of a dangerous and surprised if that does not also find a place among difficult job, most professionally carried out, as has some of our service people who so loyally conduct it. been so warmly acknowledged. I share that acknowledgement and gratitude. Would it not have been far more realistic first to For all our Armed Forces’ high reputation, I would, have secured Kabul as a firm base and then to have if I were the Defence Secretary, be a deeply troubled widened the hunt and sought to enlarge the footprint man, even if I had the experience and very great of the rule of law in Afghanistan? People have always qualities of the present incumbent, who I happen to been sceptical that sound, fully fledged democratic think is the best that this Government have produced. government can somehow gratefully spring forth, but The Defence Secretary must often wish that he that is what we seem to have hoped for. The Prime had half the number of infantry battalions as the Minister’s Statement yesterday indicates that the battalions in which his sorrows come. A major concern Government know better now, which is welcome. I of his surely will be for the well-being, safety and fair think that the Government are right in what they are treatment of the young men and women who are seeking to achieve now, but it will take time to overturn committed to his charge in the Armed Forces. Across the damage done to confidence, which is not good for all three services—mainly, of course, in the Army—these the forces. The Government are right to perceive that young men and women are called on to place themselves the Taliban either will have to be defeated in the area potentially in the way of mortal danger, often in tours of the country bordering Pakistan or will have to be of duty that recur far too frequently, yet they have defeated on the streets of Britain and so forth. Public never let us down and their contribution has been scepticism has to be overturned. immense. It is not from any ghoulish desire on my part to pile I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, Pelion upon the Ossa of the Secretary of State’s mentioned the Army in Northern Ireland. He spoke troubles but, out of sympathy for him, I end by movingly of what it had to experience in Omagh. I was referring to a very dark cloud indeed. In the light of deeply grateful during my tenure there for the way in the appalling state of public finances, he will have to which the Army carried out its difficult and sophisticated fight some lonely battles in Cabinet for what he tasks. In comparison with today’s challenges for the knows the forces need. That has been foreseen by Armed Forces, it is worth noting that in Northern other speakers today. Unless it is the Prime Minister Ireland we never had to face a suicide bomber. The himself, no colleague will stand up for him; they will terrorists there were pretty keen to preserve their all recite the mantra that, if they are to make own skins. Alas, that is not true in the Middle East or sacrifices, the Defence Secretary must make them on in Afghanistan. an equal basis. That is not so. No other department’s If the Defence Secretary is to do his duty by the sacrifices will foreseeably result in young men and Armed Forces, he must protect them from further women needlessly losing their lives while striving to deployments that involve overstretch and insufficient make our country safe. He will have to stand and operational support. He must protect them from what fight. If he goes down, he will know that he has done I euphemistically call today the “pinch points in manning”, his duty; if he succeeds, the credit will extend not only 351 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 352 to him but also to the Government of whom he is a Therefore, I was extremely concerned when I went part. I wish him well in that fight, which he will to Afghanistan last year to find that there was a certainly have to wage. disconnect. The Foreign Office in Afghanistan appeared to have no link to the department run by DfID, which 1.05 pm was sitting in a completely different building from the brigade commander. When I looked into the money Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I echo the thanks to available, I found that each American company the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for obtaining commander sent to Afghanistan had not just $200,000 this important debate at this appropriate time. I also to spend on post-conflict reconstruction but the backing echo the pleasure that has been expressed at seeing the of the American Corps of Engineers. An Italian major noble Baroness, Lady Park, in her place. had $2 million plus the help of the Italian Government I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord King, should and our brigade commander had $200,000 for the have talked about the contribution made by the Armed whole of Helmand, all controlled by DfID. I do not Forces to the defence of the United Kingdom and think that satisfactory peacekeeping is made unless peacekeeping. I want to focus on the ability of the there is a connect. Armed Forces to make that contribution in the future. There is always a danger in looking back but my plea, The third experience was a conversation that I had which I shall end with, is based on three experiences with the divisional commander who commanded the on which I shall draw. I remind the House that we are troops going into Iraq in 2003. I asked him after the debating this matter in a week in which we have had event, “What was your battle-winning factor as far as two important Statements, one on the reserves and equipment was concerned?”. He replied, “The American one on Afghanistan and Pakistan. Marine Aircraft Wing, which was put under my command, because it had absolutely everything we My first experience may well be remembered by the needed for operations of this kind, virtually none of noble Lord, Lord King. When the aircraft crashed at which was available from the Royal Air Force or the Lockerbie, the first people on the scene were the crew Army Air Corps”. That is a telling comment and it of a Territorial Army field ambulance. They were sent deserves deep examination. I entirely concur with the away by the police because no one knew what to do words of my noble and gallant friend Lord Bramall with them. One of my concerns about the reserves, questioning the cost in the current defence budget of which I hope will be put right as a result of the review, Trident, aircraft carriers, Astute submarines and eventually is that at last people will think through what the the Eurofighter, all of which are hideously expensive; reserves represent in terms of skill and application, they have a read-back to the Cold War and distort a not just in the defence of the United Kingdom and in budget based on operations that we are required to do Iraq and Iran but also in the whole spectrum of today and tomorrow. peacekeeping, to which I want to move on. My second experience was just before leaving the In this context and based on reflections on those Army when I was sent out to look at the United three experiences, I echo the calls in this House today Kingdom contingent with the peacekeeping operation and previously for a serious defence review to examine in Cambodia. I was disturbed to find that the commander the capability of our Armed Forces to contribute to of that contingent had been issued with a Barclaycard not just the defence of the United Kingdom but also and told to buy what the contingent needed in the peacekeeping. The noble Lord, Lord King, quoted the markets of Phnom Penh. That seemed to me to late Prime Minister, saying that we must ask “What do demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of we want to do?” and then fund it. The question “What what peacekeeping operations mean, particularly in a do we want to do today and tomorrow?” has not been multinational organisation such as the United Nations. properly examined and the funding will be irrelevant On complaining, I got my comeuppance, as the Secretary unless it is based on an answer to that question. of State asked me to write a paper on the management Finally, because this is a debate about the Armed of the United Kingdom contribution to UN operations, Forces’ contribution, as so many noble Lords have which led to my being asked to join a group under the said, we must not forget that what is included in that command of the director-general of peacekeeping in funding is the all-important care and aftercare of all the United Nations to consider the same in the whole those young men and women whom we ask to carry context. out these operations on behalf of our great nation. It was quite clear that the word “peacekeeping” covered a spectrum of activities, including conflict 1.12 pm prevention, peacekeeping under Chapter 6 of the charter, peacemaking or peace enforcement under Chapter 7 Lord Judd: My Lords, it is indeed good to see the and post-conflict reconstruction. All four matters were indestructible noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, interlinked. What was peacekeeping in one place could in her place. These debates are simply not the same actually be conflict prevention in another, as could without her. Like everybody else, I am grateful to the post-conflict reconstruction. If all those were to be noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for having exercised, it was essential that there should be shown introduced this debate and for the very reasonable, to be no disconnect, to use the word used by the noble balanced and thoughtful contribution he made in Lord, Lord Robertson, between the activities of the opening it, which has set the tone for all our deliberations great offices of state in this country in deciding what today. Of course he was right to emphasise the tribute the national contribution should be. That means the which all of us should pay to the men and women of Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and what was our armed services and to their families. I was especially then the ODA and is now DfID. glad that he remembered the wounded and maimed, 353 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 354

[LORD JUDD] described, carriers can be invaluable in enabling us to who may never enjoy full health and 100 per cent have flexibility and the ability to deploy our forces physique again. I was particularly impressed by his across the world. Where I think he is right is in telling references to mental illness, resulting from the questioning the whole context of the deterrent, a point experiences service people are expected to endure. It is also raised by the right reverend Prelate. I am not too easy to sweep that under the carpet. convinced that, with the pressures and demands being We owe it to all these people that our armed services made on our fighting forces at present, we can see the are properly resourced, both in the numbers of people renewal of Trident as an inescapable priority. That available to undertake a task and also the equipment argument has not yet been proved. at their disposal. None of us can have been happy with Finally, in the nature of the task with which we are the Nimrod story or the stories about getting right the confronted, two things are true: the services are becoming patrol vehicles our infantry are expected to use. I am more and more integrated, and increasingly we are glad it has been stressed in the debate that what is required to operate in an international context. I would most important of all is that is absolutely clear to find it invaluable if, when my noble friend replies, she servicemen and women and their families what the could tell us about how we are preparing our officers objective of the engagement and the undertaking is. It and men and women to serve in an international must clearly be legally and morally justified. It is quite context and in an integrated context together with the wrong to expect servicemen to undertake a task on other services. The quintessence of a high-flying officer our behalf unless we are certain that it is justified in today should be the ability to serve internationally but international law and that it has the cause of morality also to serve in the centre. I am sometimes a little fully behind it. fearful that we have not yet moved away from the It is also important—again, we owe this to those tradition in which the person who has served in the involved—that we have thought through the implications centre comes back to their service as a bit suspect, and consequences of what we are doing. It is one thing with a doubt about how far they are really still part of to have the resources to fight the war, but the resources the service, the Army, Navy or Air Force, to which must be available to build the peace. Otherwise, we will their loyalty should be primary. Loyalty should be have betrayed all those who have served and died in seen to the effectiveness of the integrated task. the cause. This brings us to the central issue of facing The challenges are huge. All I can say is that we all up to the real threat. It has been put that we must owe a debt of gratitude to my noble friend and her decide what we want to do and then make available colleagues for the tremendous responsibilities that they what is necessary to do it. Of course I relate to that accept on our behalf. argument, but I remember thinking many years ago, when I had the privilege of being a service Minister, 1.20 pm that it was important all the time to be clear about Lord Marlesford: My Lords, my noble friend’s powerful what the real existing and future threat is, and not be and authoritative opening speech has come in a debate operating on what was appropriate for a threat which that is particularly well timed. As our involvement in may no longer be relevant in the form it took in Iraq draws to a close, that in Afghanistan appears to previous years. be expanding. It seems to me that the lesson from Iraq When one is analysing that, one has to recognise is that although military intervention may be necessary, that, characteristic of what we face, is the unorthodox military occupation should if at all possible be avoided, nature of warfare now—although it has become so and certainly be ended as early as possible. It is at last usual that it is probably not right to refer to it as being recognised that Afghanistan is now a part of a unorthodox because, in a paradoxical sort of way, it far bigger problem: the survival of Pakistan as a has become the orthodox. In this our Special Forces democratic and secular state. It is becoming increasingly are clearly particularly well designed to meet the needs clear that there is a dangerous contradiction between that confront us. It is good to see that the Government the problem in Pakistan and the NATO military are concentrating on the future of our Special Forces operations in Afghanistan. The NATO operations are in the way our services are organised. It is also important clearly inciting the instabilities in Pakistan. to recognise, in this context, the contribution made by I read and reread the Prime Minister’s UK policy organisations such as the Royal Air Force Regiment or Statement on Afghanistan and Pakistan yesterday. I the distinguished Royal Marines. When I was the fear that I found it a rather woolly, disconnected Minister responsible for the Navy—a privilege I have melange of military, political and social suggestions. always greatly savoured and regarded myself as extremely The repeated emphasis on Britain’s aid contribution fortunate to have had—I was never anything but inspired to both countries made me wonder whether he had his by the commitment and esprit de corps of the Royal priorities right. As my right honourable friend David Marines, who have been making a very important Cameron said after the Statement: contribution. Then there are the reserves, and it is “We are not in the business of trying to create a new Switzerland again good to see the way the Government are thinking in the Hindu Kush”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/4/09; col. 873.] through now how we need to integrate the reserves My right honourable friend cited President Obama’s more completely in the total task in a way that is strategy: appropriate to the present situation. “to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, made Pakistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the some observations about the Royal Navy. I am not future”. sure that I am totally with him in his doubts about What a pity that we did not have such a crisp and clear carriers. It seems to me that, facing the kind of threat I statement from the Prime Minister. 355 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 356

In trying to influence what happens in Pakistan, the I have two main complaints. First, despite new West is taking on a task of immense scale. The population Labour’s phrase “joined-up government”, there has is 174 million: double that of Iran and five times that been a lamentable lack of integration of our defence, of Iraq. A comparison with the population of Afghanistan foreign and homeland policies when tackling the threat is difficult because the Americans and the British from Islamism. It is high time that the policies and disagree on the basic figure. The CIA says that it has operations of DfID were far more integrated into the 34 million people; the FCO says that it has 29 million— FCO—indeed, I wonder whether the time may not be 17 per cent difference. Perhaps the Minister will tell us approaching when DfID should be put back into the who is right. FCO. We need more joined-up thinking. The deterioration in Afghanistan is epitomised by My second complaint is that our defence policy the recent agreement of President Karzai to introduce lacks the hard edge that enables our forces to be prepared Sharia family law, with all its horrors for the treatment for the real threats for which they are needed, rather of women. Despite all the outrage from the West at than being allocated tasks on the basis of gesture that proposal, the best that the Prime Minister could politics. Nor am I sure that it is sensible to use special report yesterday was to welcome Karzai’s “decision to contingency reserves as the source of funding for special review” that law. What sort of person are our troops defence operations. That leads to huge inefficiencies, being asked to lay down their lives for? especially in procurement—referred to proudly by the Prime Minister yesterday when he spoke of the extra £1 The Prime Minister has repeatedly said that we are billion that had been needed for emergency provision fighting in Afghanistan to defend Britain. He emphasised for vehicles in Afghanistan. yesterday: In conclusion, I fear that I must say that although “Two thirds of the attacks or plots in Britain come from the present Defence Secretary is one of the most Pakistan”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/4/09; col. 875.] distinguished members of the Government, I do not The problem in Pakistan and Afghanistan is so vast in have confidence in the political direction of our national relation to our UK resources that I believe that we defence by our present Prime Minister. I believe that would defend ourselves more effectively if we focused he has shown little interest in or understanding of the more on the protection of our UK borders. We know real needs of our Armed Forces. that there are a very large number of persons of Pakistan origin living in the UK. Many of them have 1.28 pm both British and Pakistan passports. They can therefore Lord Burnett: My Lords, I, too, congratulate and use their British passports to depart from and return thank the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for to the UK and their Pakistan passports for travel calling this debate. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord outside the UK. The vast majority of these people are Judd, for his praise for the Royal Marines, which will wholly loyal and are great contributors to our British be much appreciated in the corps. community, but the fact is that we know that there are Notwithstanding the criticisms made of the political a few who are not, and it is extremely difficult to detect lack of co-ordination and shortcomings in respect of and monitor those few. the Allies’ endeavours in Pakistan and Afghanistan, There is much literature on the internal threat in there can be no doubt that our fighting troops have Britain. One of the best books remains The Islamist by exceeded all our expectations in terms of courage, Ed Hussein—I recommend it to any of your Lordships endurance and success. This is despite the great demands who have not read it. Quillam, the new counter-extremism made on service manpower. think tank, is a valuable, although chilling, source of The make-up of the Helmand taskforce, which information. The real danger is the spread of Islamist recently concluded its immensely successful deployment and jihadist teaching through the madrassas, to the in Afghanistan, graphically illustrates the need for extent that they now provide most of the education for more infantrymen and commandos. The taskforce Pakistan’s poor. That is not a recent development. was commanded by, and under, the outstanding leadership Many of those madrassas have been funded by Saudi of the able and experienced Brigadier Gordon Messenger. Arabia. An excellent book, Three Cups of Tea,bytwo It was spearheaded by 3 Commando Brigade Royal Americans, Greg Morteson and David Relin, sets out Marines. It is worth listing the taskforce formations: the evidence. To cite one excerpt: 400 royal naval ratings, the Royal Navy Sea King and “By December 2001 one of four major Wahabit proselytising Lynx squadron and the Royal Navy Harrier Strike organisations, the Al Haramain foundation, had built 1,100 mosques, Wing. There were also the following Royal Marine schools and Islamic centres in Pakistan and other Muslim countries”. formations,otherthan3CommandoBrigadeHeadquarters, towhichIhavealreadyreferred:42Commando,45Commando, Surely Saudi Arabia should be a key member of any the Armoured Support Group, the UK Landing Force alliance to combat the jihadist threats from inside Command Support Group with the Commando Brigade Pakistan and Afghanistan. Reconnaissance Force, 539 Assault Squadron Royal Much could be done to strengthen our borders. I Marines, and 18 members of the Royal Marines Band hope a new Government may consider whether we Service. From the Army, there was invaluable need a Department of Homeland Security on the support from 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery, American pattern, which might help to focus our 24 Commando Regiment Royal Engineers, 1 Rifles, efforts—and, indirectly, contribute to the effectiveness 1 and 2 The Prince of Wales’s Royal Regiment, 1 The with which we can use our very limited military resources. Queen’s Dragoon Guards and last, but certainly not I would really like that to start now; we cannot necessarily least, 2 Battalion Royal Gurkhas, as well as other wait until we get a new Government. international elements. 357 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 358

[LORD BURNETT] Finally, on the matter of manpower, our Royal This was a truly combined operation. All ranks and Marines and soldiers, with limited numbers, are doing formations exceeded, as I have said, our highest far more tours on active service than should reasonably expectations in them, with many ranks from all formations be asked of them. They joined to fight; morale, I having already deployed to Afghanistan on a number understand, is high. We need more troops. I suspect of previous occasions. It is worth noting the high that the Army needs at least another infantry brigade proportion of naval service in this deployment. I remind with supporting arms and the Royal Marines need the House—this has been referred to by other noble another commando unit. If the Government wish to Lords—that tragically this seven-month deployment expand Special Forces, we need a larger pool. That resulted in 31 deaths on active service, together with means more infantrymen and more commandos. 354 total recorded injuries, including 22 very seriously Recruiting and retention are reasonably satisfactory. injured and 14 seriously injured. Were it not for the The Government should take the initiative and increase miracles of modern medicine—I pay tribute to the the size of the Army and Royal Marines so that our wonderful work of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Armed Forces can more easily match the great demands Air Force medical teams—there would have been many that we make of them. more deaths. In the seven-month deployment, the commando 1.36 pm brigade and its attached ranks have seen combat of a Earl of Stair: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in ferocity that has not been witnessed since World War thanking the noble Lord, Lord King, for this opportunity 2. Our Armed Forces now have greater battle experience to debate the contribution made by our Armed Forces. that at any time since the war. We owe them, and their Amid all their incredible achievements, however, I find families, a debt of honour and gratitude which we can it very sad that, all too often, the media tend to focus never repay. It is also interesting to note that the on the problem areas, be it Chinook supply, ship Gurkhas are, as always, playing their crucial role in supply or the casualties of which we hear too many in this war, as they have done for centuries, in support of this House. All of it must have a desperate effect on Great Britain. The Minister will note that, of the 31 morale and recruiting. deaths on active service to which I have referred, two were members of the Royal Gurkhas, and a number of I wish to focus on the training and equipment, Gurkhas were wounded. The Government must now without which our Armed Forces would be unable to honour yesterday’s vote in the other place. Their churlish contribute either to our defence or our peacekeeping position on this matter is an outrageous insult to our tasks. I agree with many other noble Lords, as was most loyal and brave friends. said already today, that the time has come for another review. I hope it will include the provision of sufficient Our operations in Afghanistan are crucial. Nevertheless, and suitable aircraft, particularly helicopters, and, it is equally important that our Armed Forces retain more importantly, with spares to keep them flying, so the basic skills and capability to conduct their operations. that, in training and in war, we can have full equipment. We are likely to be in Afghanistan at least until 2015 Defence funding peaked in the 1950s, 1960s and in and probably longer. It is essential that our Armed the mid-1980s, all Cold War periods. It has declined Forces have the opportunity to exercise the other skills since. Our warfare methods have changed from European in which they are also held internationally in the planes with large formations of tanks. Although the highest regard. The next war or humanitarian operation Cold War may have ended, we are now fighting a less that they will be asked to fight or conduct will no conventional war in more difficult terrain. We should doubt be different from what has happened in the have sufficient spending for proper equipment for past. We have always to be ready for the unexpected. training and for war. The time has come for another An outbreak of piracy off the coast of east Africa peak in spending. means that we are in desperate need of frigates. Training for war needs realistic scenarios and, therefore, In order to maximise the political choices available natural terrain. At this point, I should declare an to the Government, it is crucial that our expeditionary interest; I am involved with the Ministry of Defence in capability is not only maintained but practised. The the provision of land for training. Pressures have noble Lord, Lord Judd, is quite right; we need the two increased on traditional areas such as Salisbury Plain new aircraft carriers, one at sea and one in refit, as and Wales, particularly with troops returning from soon as possible. There should be no brakes put on Germany. In the United Kingdom, Scotland has now this programme, nor any brakes put on the Joint Strike become the largest formation training area, providing Fighter, which, in any event, is unlikely to come into an ideal mix of ground and realistic training scenarios. service before 2016. I understand that the first steel is In many places, this is a combination of Forestry being cut in Govan on 7 July 2009. These ships will be Commission land, private land and Ministry of needed fast and the Government should endeavour to Defence land. bring forward the delivery dates for the Joint Strike It has recently been estimated that approximately Fighters. 70 per cent of this training is carried out on private I am continually told by serving troops that the kit land and Forestry Commission land. Until devolution, is good. However, they need more helicopters, especially a licence existed between the Forestry Commission military and heavy lift. This demand has frequently and the Ministry of Defence on a 30-year rotational been made from opposition Benches in this House. lease. In the next three to five years, this licence is due When she winds up, will the Minister explain to the to expire, and although the security of tenure will exist House the likely delivery dates for more helicopters? in England and Wales, the Forestry Commission in 359 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 360

Scotland is now under the management of the Scottish “to operate above the overall level of concurrent operations Government. Can the Minister say whether the which the Armed Forces are structured and resourced to sustain Government have contemplated the effects of the Scottish over”, Government withdrawing this licence, particularly on time. Following an inquest, the deputy coroner of the areas around the Dundrennan and Dalbeattie Oxfordshire has said that the Ministry of Defence training centres, which rely so extensively on the Galloway should hang its head in shame. forest? Without private and Forestry Commission land, Afghanistan demonstrates with terrifying clarity UK large formation training costs will increase how overstretched we are. It is imperative for us to dramatically because such training would be forced ensure that any involvement or commitment overseas overseas. All this takes tight, efficient and careful must be matched by an adequate size of our Armed management. Forces, which need to be suitably equipped and resourced. Currently, the majority of Scotland’s training ground Will the Government therefore reassure the House is run by regional forces through the 2nd Division, that any troop increases in Afghanistan will be matched which is based in Edinburgh. A review is under way by a proportionate increase in equipment, especially in whereby this responsibility may be taken over by defence suitable armoured vehicles and helicopters? I applaud training estates. The 2nd Division controls and liaises the £700 million increase in funding for new armoured on personal contact with the civilian population and vehicles for Afghanistan to replace the Snatch vehicles, helps considerably in conflict resolution. Defence training which have inadequate resistance to roadside bombs. estates would be likely to regionalise this procedure Will the Minister therefore give the House a date when based on Ministry of Defence centres reporting to a all the new 700 armoured Vixen vehicles should be on headquarters in Wiltshire. I should like to raise a slight the ground? Will she also give an update on the caution here; namely, that this may lead to a loss of delivery of the new Warthog armoured track vehicle? I community confidence and withdrawal of this asset. have concerns that these government commitments Our forces undertake a remarkable job on our are not reaching the front line fast enough. behalf. The Government should not forget that training The troops on the ground rely on being able to get is as important as fighting and that they should supply out to the theatres of conflict easily and quickly. full equipment for both—in particular, the now essential However, only 44 per cent of the TriStar fleet which is helicopters. The Cold War was funded properly. The responsible for getting the troops from the UK to theatre may now have changed, but the need for funding Afghanistan is considered fit for purpose, which adversely has not. affects troop logistics, transport conditions and leave time. What are the Government doing to ensure that 1.40 pm we have adequate transport capacity between the UK and Afghanistan? Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I strongly welcome the opportunity to debate this vital issue, as we are currently In Afghanistan, there is a need for flexible troop a nation undertaking two medium-sized conflicts on a transport planes, yet we are seriously short of Hercules peacetime budget of just 2.5 per cent of GDP. At the and C-17s. Furthermore, we now hear that the replacement outset, I state that as a Muslim leader I totally condemn of the A400M transport aircraft will not be with us the appalling protests against our servicemen by a until 2011, having been subjected to a four-year delay. small group of misled persons when our troops returned What options have the Government considered for home to Luton last month. A fundamental distinction buying or leasing more troop transport aircraft? is to be made between the politicians who commit to Furthermore, what discussions has the MoD had with war and the Armed Forces whose role it is to execute the contractors and Airbus Military on the viability of their will. It is therefore unacceptable to make political the A400M project and on when we can expect a final points to soldiers. Such points should be directed in a decision? peaceful and non-offensive manner towards politicians. There are also important political issues which we The UK is fortunate to have an apolitical military, must work through. The Afghanistan mission is being which is not a political force in its own right. We must undertaken under the banner of NATO, but the troop defend against any politicising of the Armed Forces. I contributions mainly come from the US, the UK, am proud to say that my father and members of my Canada and Poland. I welcome the increase in troop family fought in two world wars. My uncle served in and police training additions pledged by Germany, the King’s African Rifles, as did the noble Lord, Lord Spain and France, but what further pressure are the King, who served as an officer. Government applying to our NATO allies to ensure The military exists to execute the defence of this further long-term troop deployments? It is vital that country according to the direction of the Government. everyone carries their weight in the NATO alliance, as Thus there must be a reciprocal relationship between the security of Afghanistan is vital for our security. In politicians and servicemen. They are not allowed to go addition to taking military action it is important that on strike or to join a trade union. Therefore, in return, we win the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan, we owe them a duty of care. For the Armed Forces to and build their institutions and infrastructure to achieve do their job, they and their families must be properly long-term peace. We should not be fighting there for a respected, equipped, resourced and looked after in the long time. field and at home by us as political masters. Yet this The security of Afghanistan and Pakistan are closely pact or military covenant has not been properly honoured linked. Therefore, what work are the Government in the past decade, as the Ministry of Defence admits. undertaking with the Pakistani military and the ISI to It has said that our servicemen are continuing, bolster military capability and aid their defensive strategy? 361 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 362

[LORD SHEIKH] I am a firm believer in having a four-boat Trident What steps are being taken towards promoting good fleet, even though we are told that the new submarines governance and joint working between the MoD, the are going to be much more effective and efficient than Foreign Office and the Department for International the generation that they are replacing. We have come Development at local and district levels in Afghanistan more than once close to the edge of not having a boat and Pakistan as the stable blocks for regional and on patrol, even with the present Vanguard class. world peace? I am a firm believer in the nuclear deterrent. I took It is vital that our servicemen are treated fairly and on board the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the with compassion, which requires a holistic approach Bishop of Southwark, who said that he did not believe that encompasses a true duty of care both in the field that this country should have nuclear weapons and and when they return home. On their return, it is that we should set a moral example to the rest of the important that our servicemen are looked after in world by giving them up. The great thing about nuclear every possible way to ensure their welfare and well-being, weapons is that they are not only the ultimate war-making as well as the welfare of their families. It is essential weapon but the ultimate peacekeeping weapon. That that we provide them with financial, material, medical is their great virtue: they act as a superb and ultimate and psychological support. We owe it to them. Finally, deterrent. I will never cease to battle to make sure that I urge the Government to consider all the points raised this country keeps its nuclear deterrent in good fighting in this wide-ranging debate. We must take stock of order. where we are and where we need to be heading. I think that we could redirect some of our resources 1.48 pm quite drastically in the defence equipment budget, Lord Gilbert: My Lords, we are all extremely grateful although my candidates would be some of the expenditure to the noble Lord, Lord King, for giving us the in the Royal Air Force, where we are committed. One opportunity to have this debate and, not least, for the has to recognise the extent to which Defence Procurement usual balanced, thoughtful and comprehensive way in Ministers are prisoners of the past and of political which he made his remarks. I should like to echo just decisions of which they themselves had no part. We about everything that he had to say. are now spending huge amounts of money on a fourth I am delighted to see that great patriot the noble generation aircraft when the fifth generation aircraft, Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, in her place. We the Joint Strike Fighter, will be available to us in a have missed her greatly. Privately, I have always thought short space of time. that she would have made a marvellous Formula 1 We need to remember that we want our Armed driver. Seeing her manoeuvre her new vehicle around Forces not just for peacekeeping and dealing with your Lordships’ premises today has only confirmed insurgencies; they have to be there in case we need me in that belief. them for serious war fighting. To that end, some of the On a more sober note, I echo the words of my noble kit that we are procuring will not be much use to us in friend Lady Dean about what is happening in Basra 10 or so years’ time, as other countries acquire fifth- today. Any of us who saw that service must have been generation aircraft. The most important thing when deeply moved by it. It brings home to us in the most we are talking about serious war fighting is the need vivid way exactly what sacrifices our young men and for this country to maintain its capability to communicate women are making on our behalf. in the battle space with the forces of the United States I turn to the problems facing the Ministry of Defence. of America. We are close to losing that capability and I was extremely pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord there is no other member of NATO, so far as I am Mayhew, say that the present Secretary of State was aware, that has it. I consider that of supreme importance the best that we have had in this Government. I dare to the defence posture of this country. not comment on that, even though my previous boss is not in the Chamber, but I will say that in the 40 years Parenthetically, I want to say how much I welcome since I have been at Westminster the present Secretary the Secretary of State’s renewed emphasis on the of State is only the second I knew who wanted the job. Special Forces and his intention to deliver some resources He is first one who knew anything about it before he to increasing their size and capability. got there, as far as I can make out. He is doing a My noble friend Lady Dean said that of course we superb job. That is enough sucking up for one day. need to spend more on defence. I could not agree The noble Baroness, Lady Park, said that she had more. Over a few years we should increase our defence various uses for the Gurkhas. She omitted one that it expenditure by the tune of something like 25 per cent. always occurred to me we should have contemplated: She also said that something would have to give way. I sending them to Northern Ireland. We would have had disagree with her profoundly on that. When we see little trouble with the IRA within 48 hours of their how many resources we are finding to bail out incompetent arriving there, but that is a purely personal view. and greedy bankers—that is a serious remark; it is not It was interesting today to listen to the generals, intended as a jest—I see no reason why we cannot find neither of whom is in his place at the moment, and the resources for the Armed Forces, particularly when one field marshal telling us why they wanted all the we are in a time of increasing unemployment and the Navy assets cut for more expenditure on the Army, resources are available. We owe it to our Armed Forces. although they were too delicate to put it so crudely. I It is a question of political courage. I hope that my do not agree. If we are going to have carriers, we need noble friends in my Government or any successor two; one is no use at all, as what would we do when Government will make the resources available to the one is out of action? Armed Forces, which we so easily could do. 363 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 364

1.56 pm Yesterday, the Government released their policy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. The policy observed that Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble most Afghans do not support the Taliban but are friend Lord King of Bridgwater for introducing the waiting to see who predominates. Nevertheless, they debate. I remind the House of my interest as an also have a cultural position. The policy paper alluded infrequently serving TA officer. to a decisive blow against the Taliban. I think that that Before getting into my main speech, I would like to is illusory and there will not be one. We need to drive a pick up on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord wedge between the reconcilable and the irreconcilable Burnett, about Special Forces. The simple fact is that Taliban, which has been the policy for some time. only a small proportion of our Armed Forces are Effective reconstruction and its delivery are crucial to suitable for Special Forces, whose skill set is so remarkable. this, but we must also recognise and understand the It is also worth remembering that, by the standards of cultural issues. many countries, our Royal Marines Commandos are Special Forces. For instance, one of our objectives in Afghanistan is to empower women, which is an absolutely proper Yesterday’s policy Statement about Afghanistan and and desirable objective. But how does that fit in with Pakistan was interesting. There was some recognition the Afghan culture and do we understand it? Out of that the operation is not purely military, but we are 8,000 12 year-old English girls, one will die from not pulling all the levers of the state’s power, both childbearing-related complications. We could do better hard and soft, together in unison. Apart from the because the figure in Sweden is one in 17,000. However, Prime Minister himself, there is no single Minister in developing countries the ratio is one in 450 and in who can wield that power. The power is diluted and Afghanistan it is one in nine. I repeat: one in nine divided and no one controls the money. The Statement Afghan women will die as the result of childbearing said that the number of civilian experts in Afghanistan problems. On top of that, two in every 10 Afghan was to be doubled. Will the Minister say what the new babies die before their fifth birthday. The figures are total will be? That is the only question that I am going horrendous and hard to comprehend; indeed, only to ask. two other countries in the world have a worse record. Many noble Lords have queried whether our Armed However, it is not just poverty. As many noble Lords Forces are properly equipped. In effect, have we got know, Afghanistan has very few proper midwives or our threat assessment wrong and, from that, our capability decent facilities, but we know too that the culture is management? I am not sure that we have got it that very complex and we do not fully understand it. wrong. The problem lies with the strategic decisions that we have made: first, operating at double medium When our troops deploy to theatre, they undertake scale plus when only resourced for one medium-scale pre-deployment training and study the culture, but operation and one small operation; and, secondly, the only enough for a six-month tour. Apparently, Afghan way in which we are prosecuting the campaign in men are very poor at permitting and facilitating medical Afghanistan. On that, I will be building on the intervention into their wives’ pregnancies or deliveries contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. and they would certainly never allow a male doctor to As for Iraq, I look forward to the conclusions of the attend. They will not relent even if their wives suffer inquiry into that campaign, which will start at some diabolical pain or injury, or even if she bleeds to death point. over two days. It is very hard for us to understand why they allow such suffering, but I am afraid that it is in Despite the Government’s protestations, our operations their culture. If we are honest, until recently the UK on the ground in Afghanistan are primarily military in was a bit homophobic, but the Government changed nature. Moreover, there is insufficient density of military our culture by a number of means. They did it slowly, and security staff in the difficult provinces. ISAF does but we have changed. not compare well to IFOR in that respect. Another difficulty is that many of ISAF’s troops are located in When I came back from Afghanistan two years the quiet areas and operate under significant national ago, having been there with the noble Viscount, Lord caveats. This also gives weight to a Taliban argument Slim, I came to the view that we need either a hardened that ISAF is merely a western force of occupation. and well financed NGO or something much more akin As many noble Lords have observed, members of to the old ODA of the early 1990s. It could come our Armed Forces have been prosecuting the campaign under either the MoD or the FCO, but in both cases it in Afghanistan with vigour and courage. They are in would work closely with our military at the tactical contact with the Taliban on a daily basis. Inevitably level. It would have integrated communications and there can be loss of civilian life and damage to civilian individuals would be trained to have good operational infrastructure but, unlike with the Americans, skills. They would need to be able to marshal a military reconstruction for us does not start the next day. The helicopter to an emergency landing site. But what is noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, explained some of most important is that they would have to be prepared these difficulties with far more authenticity and credibility to accept enhanced risk and deal with danger. There is than I can manage. But often the area of operations is no point in taking a steady stream of military casualties too dangerous for conventional NGOs, and DfID and not achieving our desired end state, or to do it so does not do danger, as it appears to see itself as not slowly that it does not matter. The mission would be to having a tactical role. Thus, we can have only military provide civil effect in order to encourage local Afghans and not civil effect. I am not sure how we are going to to reject the Taliban and move towards a more prosperous change an adverse civil culture by purely military means. and healthy Afghanistan. I do not think that this is a 365 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 366

[EARL ATTLEE] welfare officers hold a qualification in health and/or role for the Territorial Army, but if we continue to welfare, including counselling skills and first aid as prosecute the campaign as a purely military one, we basic requirements, as well as being given the opportunity are unlikely to achieve the desired end state. for continuing professional development. They are fully equipped to meet the immediate needs of the sick and injured by providing the basic necessities of clothes 2.04 pm and toiletries as well as comforts for those requiring Baroness Emerton: My Lords, I, too, should like to longer stays in the form of CDs and DVDs. They also thank the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for provide intensive support for the families of the injured. securing this important debate and I also thank my Perhaps the most important part is the listening ear noble friend Lord Ramsbotham and other noble Lords for hospitalised personnel, enabling them to talk in who have raised the importance of the care and aftercare absolute confidence away from but respecting the chain of service personnel. I declare an interest in that I am of command. They often want to share their personal a non-executive director of the Order of St John and worries, anxieties and fears, as well as grief if perhaps the British Red Cross Defence Medical Welfare Service. they have lost a great chum. There is also an opportunity The contribution of the Defence Medical Welfare to pick up on the early signs of mental health conditions, Service is not well known. Its welfare officers go about particularly those that lead to PTSD. This can lead to their work in a quiet and effective way in hospitals in early referral and prophylactic treatment. This listening the United Kingdom, Germany and Cyprus and on ear is also available to medical support teams, most deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, we often after a very heavy day of casualties and deaths, believe that it is far more important that the people providing a private space for reflection and the ability who need and use the service, members of the Armed to unwind from the stress of the day. Forces and their dependent relatives, know exactly This organisation, consisting of a total of 50 staff, what DMWS provides. Feedback from them and the provides a small part of the total welfare commitment commanding officers of those hospitals is overwhelmingly to service personnel, but we believe that the delivery of positive. medical welfare plays a very important part in providing The Defence Medical Welfare Service is a charity a professional and compassionate service at times of contracted and funded by the MoD to provide a greatest need and, in so doing, contributes to the medical welfare service to hospitalised personnel and well-being of individual service personnel, enabling their dependent relatives. The service is held to account them to move towards a full recovery and, where by the MoD at quarterly review meetings. We are the possible, to return to service duties. only civilian charity that serves on the front line and is I hope that the Minister, in her winding-up, will be accountable to military command while on deployment able to give me some information as to when the attached to field hospitals. Before deployment, all commitments in the Command Paper published last welfare officers undergo specialist training and, July will be enacted. immediately prior to leaving, join the hospital medical team with which they will be working for last-minute training. While on deployment, they wear a functional uniform that differentiates them from the military and 2.10 pm a name badge carrying the logo of St John and the Lord Lyell: My Lords, I would like to breach the British Red Cross. conventions of your Lordships’ House by thanking The money invested by the MoD into DMWS is my noble friend Lord King, who I am afraid is not in used in as cost-effective a way as possible and is his place; perhaps he heard that I was going to speak. I subject to regular monitoring by the board, the and your Lordships owe him a colossal debt for giving management team and, of course, the MoD. A rigorous us the opportunity to have a debate on the Armed performance management framework enables anyone Forces today, when we have heard so much in your from the board to the welfare officers to see at a glance Lordships’ House and elsewhere this week about the what activity has taken place in the units. However, huge spread of activities and duties of our enormously what is not seen in those reports, but is seen only in the brave, successful and unique Armed Forces all over letters of thanks and appreciation, is how the welfare the world. officers rise on every occasion to meet needs on an I shall be impudent again. It is 66 years and three individual basis with professionalism, compassion and days since I lost my father. He was classified as a noble respect to assist those at a most vulnerable time in and gallant Lord—if your Lordships’ want to find out their lives. Personnel from other than UK units who why, they should go to the end of the Royal Gallery— are treated by the hospital team are also recipients of although he did not achieve high office. From the age DMWS; in fact a letter recently arrived from the head of four I was imbued with something like military of the army in the Netherlands praising the way in duty, if not quite that. I am old enough to be one of, I which Dutch personnel had been so well cared for by think, four speakers in the debate today who are DMWS welfare officers. conscripts. There may be more and certainly others Much has been discussed over the last 18 months may have started as conscripts and then continued to on the subject of the broader provision of welfare to distinguished regular professional careers. As far as I the Armed Forces—not only the military but also am aware, four of your Lordships who have spoken in other organisations. However, the service that DMWS this debate have served full-time as professional soldiers provides is different in that it is purely a hospital-based or perhaps sailors, so here we can see an enormous medical welfare service. What do we mean by this? All spread of the Armed Forces’ military duties. 367 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 368

I served two years in my father’s regiment. Being, as to the hideous attack at Ballygawly. I cannot remember Hilaire Belloc put it, somewhat short of sight, and how many light infantrymen lost their lives. In April what is called vertically challenged, my commanding 1988 my noble friend had to fly once again to Belfast officer decided that it might be better if I were not on following the appalling murder of two corporals who the Queen’s Birthday Parade on 13 July 1958. Instead, were trapped in west Belfast. I happened to be 500 yards I was sent to the small arms school for weapons away—little further than we are from the other place. training in infantry weapons at Hythe. Being somewhat There was a helicopter flying above my head; I happened short of sight, I borrowed the glasses of a kind Welsh to be the duty Minister but that was nothing to do Guards colleague and stunned the staff by achieving with me. I was pleased that the noble Lord, Lord 94 out of 100. It may considerably shake up some of Robertson, referred to what he had seen at Omagh. my colleagues, not least the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, The fighting that our wonderful servicepeople carry to know that we were the first course to use the new out in Afghanistan or in areas of conflict is no less self-loading rifle—the .300 SLR. I thought this was a important and no less vicious than what he saw in Mercedes sports racing car but was told that it was Omagh and what my noble friend Lord King and I not. That was 51 years ago today. There was I, a young saw and appreciated on other occasions in Northern second lieutenant, taking that two-month course in Ireland. weapons training. I conclude by thanking my noble friend Lord King On 14 July 1958 the grins were wiped off our faces. for giving us the opportunity to speak today and At Windsor, 1 Battalion Scots Guards were dressed in praise each and every member of our Armed Forces. I public service tunics and bearskins and marching with apologise for taking a slightly personal view but I am a pipers to Windsor Castle perhaps every 48 hours. We mere second lieutenant among noble and gallant Lords, were warned for duty in—guess where—Iraq. I was including marshals of the Royal Air Force, and others allowed by the late father of my noble friend Lord who have spoken. It is crucial that even a mere timid, Cathcart to be in charge of the entire weapon training vertically challenged platoon commander of the Scots for my battalion. As a 19-year-old, that really shook Guards should also be heard. me but I realised I had to do a professional job. There is one thing that I ask—please—the Minister to do. She knows that I have the good luck to be secretary of the 2.19 pm House of Lords defence group. Alas the noble Baroness, Lord Selsdon: My Lords, events in life can give rise Lady Dean, is not in her place, but one of my colleagues—I to great emotions, and this is one of those days. As I will not say where or who—made a reference and stood with my wife this morning watching the services comparison involving her as chairman of the Armed in Basra I felt that welling-up of sadness that almost Forces Pay Review Body, Attila the Hun and a pussycat. leads to a tear in the eye. That, like the “Last Post”, is IwillleaveyourLordshipstodrawthenecessaryconclusion. a sad moment. Then there is another welling-up, which She is simply a wonderful chairman of our group, we is when the pride takes over. As I look around at this are grateful to have her and she leads me and other country I see that there is a reason for great pride in noble Lords to learn, visit, see and discover all aspects our Armed Forces. They are probably the most respected that concern servicemen and servicewomen. institution that we have in the world at this moment—they I will lightly and quietly breach one more convention are respected worldwide. It is sad that the Bank of of your Lordships’ House. Among the speakers who England has gone downhill and that Parliament and alas are not in their places is a young colleague in my the Government are no longer respected. But pound regiment, the noble Earl, Lord Stair. I am thinking of for pound, dollar for dollar, euro for euro, those men 13 June 1982, when he led his platoon from 2 Battalion and women and what they represent are worth more Scots Guards at Mount Tumbledown in the Falkland than any others in the world. What they do today is Islands against the fifth battalion of the Argentine often a result of history. What they have done has marines. He and the noble and gallant Lord, sometimes been due to the mistakes of others but very Lord Bramall, might well be the only two Members seldom has it been due to their own mistakes. speaking in the debate—there might be more— One has to think now about the future. Over the who have faced enemy action and hostile fire; we are past few weeks I have been writing a Green Paper. I lucky to have them. It is with that in mind that I hope like those sorts of things; you take useless information, the Minister will be able to reassure me today or later put it all together and draw conclusions that you know that the standard of training that the noble Earl, the no one else would ever accept. So I began with Her noble Lord, Lord Burnett, others and I received will Majesty the Queen and her Crown dependencies, overseas continue. territories and realms—three countries, 12 countries, I see that I have about one minute left. YourLordships 15 countries. Then I took the Commonwealth, 65 countries have been kind enough to refer—I would like to join in that are British-related and, to some extent, interrelated. the tributes—to my noble friend Lady Park, who has You might say, “Well, what about these countries?”. been an enormous help to me. I served in Northern But you do not look at their population; you look at Ireland for five and a half years—six summers, I will their coastlines, 44,000 kilometres of them—our territories. call it—and my boss was the then Secretary of State, That is a little more, by a few hundred kilometres, than the institutor of today’s debate, my noble friend Lord the territory of the Soviet Union, and twice that of the King. One evening in August 1987 he had been staying United States. with me. He moved to Tullybeagles in Perthshire where You then say, “Let’s look at the oceans of the world he was called from his bed at four o’clock in the and these coastlines and what they represent”. The morning because he had to fly across to Belfast and on coastline around the Pacific measures 136,000 kilometres; 369 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 370

[LORD SELSDON] I have great respect for many people who have around the Indian Ocean, 111,000 kilometres; around taken part in this stimulating debate. The noble Baroness, the Mediterranean, 87,000 kilometres. You say, “What Lady Park, who is sitting there as the leading member does that all mean?”. You go back into your history of the household cavalry in your Lordships’ House at and say, “Why on earth did we go out into the world?”. the moment, creates emotions in me: sadness because We have never been an exporting nation; we have she was not here for a while, but great pride that she is always been an importing nation. The role of the Navy here now. has been to protect our lives by protecting our imports. There is much that we can learn from history. I have Thus, the future of our island, which was once known already been forced to learn it. When you are in trade, by the ancients as “Windmill Hill”because we worshipped you sit below the salt; you go to the more difficult the wind, is to go out and invest, develop and bring countries and deal with the Middle East, Africa and back some of the benefits from around the world. the Caribbean—all parts of the world that no one Looking at the food crisis and at the dependent wants to go to because they are hot and dusty. Then, territories and others, you realise that almost all those suddenly, you find that that is where the conflict is. who are in trouble had investment in development that The conflict is not in the Channel or in the western took place because of what they had to offer and the approaches; there are both conflicts and opportunities added value that could be created. So I thought that throughout the world, and we, the United Kingdom, we must look not only at the added value on the land have the greatest opportunity that we have had in my but at the added value in the sea and what lies under it. lifetime. I thought that for these territories the Government should immediately declare 500-mile limits over the Baroness Thornton: My Lords, with the leave of the oceans, or at least a limit of half the distance between House, if I may interrupt the debate, it may be for the the island and the next mainland, that we should then benefit of the House for me to inform noble Lords protect. The problem for the world and the defence of that, as the House has had the opportunity to debate world peace does not necessarily lie inland; it depends the update on Gurkhas during Questions, the usual upon access by sea. Inevitably, having served in the channels have now agreed not to repeat the Statement Royal Navy, I would expect this to be the Navy’s prime on Gurkhas in this House. Therefore, my noble friend role. Can we defend the sea routes? Can we, effectively, Lord Malloch-Brown will repeat the Statement on Sri have access? Access for defence or peacekeeping purposes Lanka at the conclusion of this debate. is difficult on lands that are not linked to the coast. 2.26 pm Of course we need the new carriers. We need other Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I congratulate the resources too, but some of them are relatively simple. noble Lord, Lord King, on securing this debate. Listening Having had to serve in patrols in Cyprus where you to today’s debate and reading carefully the Hansard of were in inshore or coastal minesweepers that made the debate on defence procurement that was held in you sick, you suddenly realise that for patrol boats in the other place about 10 days ago, I acknowledge and some of these territories you do not need anything appreciate the growing consensus across political parties much bigger than a large motor gunboat with a on the whole question of defence. There is an increasing 40-millimetre Bofors and what they now call a chain gun. consensus that our force is severely overstretched; that I was thinking of how we could defend these territories. there is a near impossibility, or a considerable unlikelihood, Your Lordships will remember that there are now of us going to war alone in the future; that we are 45 claims to the Antarctic, because of the natural more likely to be part of a coalition, part of a UN resources that are underneath it. When the Russians force or part of peacekeeping operations; that our go and stick a flag somewhere, that is them laying a economic situation at present puts us under severe claim. We should give consideration to the resources pressure; that we need—virtually all noble Lords who of the sea. If I were like the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, have spoken have referred to this—a major strategic with his ships and his lateral-thinking mind, I would defence review; and that we must match our commitments say, “Maybe, if we take these territorial rights, we can to our resources. sell certain oil rights and other rights, which could Where I slightly question what the noble Lord, raise significant funds that could finance further Lord King, and some of my noble colleagues have developments”. been saying, however, is on the issue of whether we are These are just slightly lateral thoughts, but if we are prepared as a country to provide the resources for to have a future as a nation, it will be trade-related. We Britain to remain as a first-division power, or whether have an enormous manufacturing balance-of-payments we have to accept the reality of our economic deficit, but we have a great opportunity at the moment. circumstances and accept that we are likely to be a The biggest single growth area of GDP, surprisingly very superior second-division power. On the one hand, enough, is the health service. The public sector is what we have at present what I would describe as first-division it is all about today, and that is wrong. If unemployment weaponry and equipment. We have Trident and the is rising and we need to stimulate demand, let us not Typhoon, while soon we will have the Astute submarines. give people £2,000 to scrap an old car; let us spend a Two supercarriers have been ordered, and we have the bit more of the reserves on creating forces. Let us not outstanding Type 45 Daring class destroyers. That is just train university students in boats on the Thames; first-class equipment. On the other hand, though, we let us put them together and send them out in gunboats. have a shortage of troops, of helicopters—as my noble After all, I went to sea as an officer in the Navy after friend Lord Burnett referred to—and strategic lift only 90 days’ basic training, which I think was due to a capability, as well as a shortage of escort vessels, technological error. which the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, referred to. 371 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 372

Unquestionably, we are trying to do too much on £100 billion in today’s money values over a 40-year the 2.4 per cent or so of gross domestic product spent period from 2015? Can that sort of expenditure realistically on defence. Whichever party wins the next general be justified? Could other delivery systems such as the election will face some difficult choices. Indeed, I Astute submarines carry a more modest nuclear capability, think I am right in saying that the Official Opposition if we judge that to be necessary? I am increasingly have for the first time acknowledged that the defence undecided on Trident, and increasingly Trident-sceptic. spend, as far as they are concerned, can no longer be Perhaps the time has come to set up a serious Future regarded as a sacred cow and ring-fenced. Indeed, I of Trident commission, involving senior diplomats, would suggest that the debate on defence in the defence experts, naval specialists and logistical and Conservative Party in the next 12 or 18 months will be financial personnel to look seriously at all the options, crucial to defence in this country. however radical. Of course, it would all be very different if we Fourthly, it is increasingly accepted that we need currently faced a major military threat. We would then more mobile and a greater number of special forces. have to put defence expenditure as a number one The Secretary of State referred to that in a speech priority. However, this is not the case at present. On earlier this week. A littler earlier today, my noble the other hand, we have a major conflict in Afghanistan, friend Lord Burnett spoke of the marines and commandos commitments in the Balkans and piracy off Somalia, in action in Afghanistan. He also acknowledged the all of which have to be properly resourced. It is tremendous efforts of the Gurkhas and the debt we particularly disturbing to hear that the Prime Minister owe them. The noble Baroness, Lady Park, also referred is blocking the commitment, or the wish of the defence to the Gurkhas. In Written Answers to my good friend chiefs, to provide more permanent forces for Afghanistan Nick Harvey in the other place, the Armed Forces and that he will sanction only a modest increase on a Minister, Bob Ainsworth, effectively conceded that temporary basis. I think that we are letting down 30 per cent of parachutists in our leading airborne our forces. fighting unit are not sufficiently qualified at present. A total of 11 parachuting course were cancelled in the We cannot ignore the terrorist threat to this country. past 12 months owing to lack of aircraft. So can we I was interested in the suggestion of the noble Lord, justify two new large carriers plus aircraft and escorts Lord Marlesford, regarding a department of homeland in our increasingly constrained circumstances? The security. We have the nuclear threat from North Korea, suggestion in the other place made by Nicholas Soames an uncertain Iran, a fragile Pakistan and significant and others was that perhaps we ought to be thinking increases in Russian and Chinese defence expenditure. about a number of smaller carriers—perhaps the Russia is considering using bases in Cuba, Venezuela development of HMS “Ocean”-type vessels which can and pushing into the Arctic. It was announced earlier carry helicopters. My noble friend Lord Addington this week that Russia and China are planning something also questioned the role of heavy armour. Fifthly, like 25 joint manoeuvres. That announcement was there is the whole question of our reserves. made by Defence Ministers from what is termed the Shanghai Co-Operation Organisation, which is seen We have to sensibly and intelligently handle the as an emerging rival to NATO. The world is still a very transition from being perhaps a superpower to being a dangerous place and we have to keep up our guard. very capable second-division player, all the while keeping up our guard and recognising that we need more What should be the strands of our defence policy in mobile and lighter Armed Forces. Finally, and crucially, the short to medium term? First—I believe the noble we have to honour the covenant with our service and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, referred to this personnel in terms of length of deployment, training, earlier—we must stay close to America, our number pay, equipment, accommodation and aftercare. We one military ally. I would suggest that we are all a lot must show greater awareness of mental problems that more comfortable with President Obama’s approach arise for those who have been in combat. We owe our of more talking, less sabre-rattling and less axis-of-evil brave service personnel nothing less. language. Secondly—this came up at Question Time earlier—we welcome France’s return to the military structure in NATO. We must work to support greater 2.36 pm European defence co-operation and support more joint Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I join other noble procurement. We should try to encourage greater United Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord King for Kingdom corporate activity in helping to consolidate having arranged this important debate. I start by the European defence industries. One looks at what saying how delighted I am to see my noble friend Lady BAE Systems has achieved in the United States. It Park back in her place. I know that I speak for the employs significantly more people there than it does in whole House when I say how much she has been this country. The lead towards consolidation can come missed. from our industry. I also express my deeply felt appreciation to all the Thirdly, we must work towards a reduction in nuclear men and women in our Armed Forces. Daily they weapons. The right reverend Prelate referred to that. perform extraordinary tasks in service to our nation. There is increasingly a questioning of Trident. A number As demonstrated by the death of Lance Sergeant of noble Lords, including the noble and gallant Lord, Fasfous of the Welsh Guards, they are willing to pay Lord Bramall, and the noble Lords, Lord Judd and the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom. The noble Lord Ramsbotham, referred to Trident. Is it truly Lord, Lord Robertson, pointed out the vital role that independent? Realistically, are we ever likely to press the families of service men and women play. My the button? Can we afford the cost of anything up to sympathy goes out to them and the loved ones of 373 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 374

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] has not been honoured fully during the two recent those—all too many of them—who have lost their operations. My noble friend also mentioned the problems lives, and particularly to those who are injured, some of the air bridge. The Minister is aware of my concerns with life-changing injuries. on this issue and the number of service men and In an eloquent speech, my noble friend Lord Sterling women who are being seriously inconvenienced and mentioned the Royal Marine who had lost both legs losing leave. only seven months after passing out. We are doing The noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, and my noble friend much to help, but the questions remain. Are we doing Lord Attlee mentioned the vital role that the Special enough? What more could we, should we, be doing? Forces carry out. I agree and I give them all my My noble friend Lord King mentioned the mental support. The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, mentioned price paid because of the difficult nature of the campaigns the Defence Medical Welfare Service and I pay tribute in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to research published to the very important work that it does. in the British Medical Journal, the longer military personnel are deployed, the more likely they are to be Many noble Lords mentioned the Gurkhas. Having at risk of developing psychological disorders and served in Gurkha brigades in Malaysia and Hong experiencing problems at home. In light of continued Kong, I was delighted, like the noble Baroness, Lady deployments, what are the Government doing to better Dean, at yesterday’s decision. I congratulate Joanna advertise help available to veterans suffering from Lumley on the incredible campaign she has fought PTSD, both to GPs and the veterans themselves? with these brave Gurkhas, coming to Parliament again and again. We also remember the 179 British service men and women who gave their lives in Iraq. This is a timely I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, for debate, given today’s very moving memorial service her very important work in chairing the Lords Defence and the withdrawal of British troops from Basra. Study Group and to my noble friend Lord Lyell for While the Army may be coming home, the Royal Navy the work he does as secretary. is still active there and we must remember the strong Afghanistan has, naturally, been mentioned by many presence they still have in the Gulf. As my noble and noble Lords, as has Pakistan, particularly in a very learned friend Lord Mayhew said, we also remember interesting speech by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. those service men and women killed in Northern On preparations for the August elections in Afghanistan Ireland. and the planned increase in troop numbers, we have We have had an excellent and authoritative debate said that we would support an increase for the elections, with contributions ranging far and wide over the tasks as long as it was clearly justified and backed up by which our Armed Forces are expected to perform. extra equipment, such as helicopters, and adequate Putting all the views together it is clear that the situation force protection. Will the Minister confirm that this is critical. will be the case? The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, and the Yesterday, the Prime Minister talked about our right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark both NATO allies sharing a fairer burden in Afghanistan, mentioned the Trident replacement. As was made as was announced at the recent NATO summit. Will clear in the defence procurement debate in the other the Minister tell the House when this commitment will place last week, we on these Benches welcome the be delivered and how many of the extra troops will be decision to proceed with the Trident replacement. As based in southern Afghanistan? Will the Minister give the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, said, this is the ultimate the House her assurance that personnel withdrawn peacekeeping weapon. The noble Lord, Lord from Iraq this year will be given sufficient rest, in line Ramsbotham, and my noble friends Lord Marlesford with the harmony guidelines, before they are deployed and Lord Attlee pointed out that there could be no to Afghanistan? The Grenadier Guards’ last tour interval, satisfactory peacekeeping while there is such a wide for example, between tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, disconnect between the MoD, DfID and the FCO. I was only eight months. went to Afghanistan a month after the noble Lord, The Government’s neglect of the defence industry Lord Ramsbotham—I thank the noble Baroness’s has been mentioned. The industry has become so department for all its help in putting the visit together— concerned that the National Defence Industries Council and I share the admiration of the noble Lords, Lord plans to undertake a lobbying exercise to persuade Judd and Lord Burnett, for the Royal Marines I met Government that this sector does matter. Not only out there, from Brigadier Gordon Messenger down. does the defence sector provide some 305,000 jobs—10 per Many soldiers and Royal Marines I spoke to there cent of Britain’s manufacturing workforce—it also wished that DfID could be less risk-averse and have contributes enormous revenues to the Exchequer. The a better understanding of the military outlook and United Kingdom is gaining a reputation as an unreliable culture. partner. We hear that the Treasury will not sign off on The noble Lord, Lord Burnett called for assurances the order for the 16 tranche 3 Typhoons for the Royal on the two carriers and the JSF. He will be pleased to Air Force at a cost of £1.44 billion. What implications know that we on these Benches are publicly committed will there be for the maintenance of key technology to both. My noble friend Lord Selsdon pointed out skills in this country if this deal does not go through? the important role the Royal Navy plays for this The Government cannot presume on the continued nation as a maritime nation. My noble friend Lord presence in the UK market of the international investors Sheikh pointed out that we owe members of the they want to see here if they are not given work. Armed Forces a duty of care. The military covenant Maintaining design teams and preparing bids is not a 375 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Armed Forces 376 cost-free exercise for industry; equipment does not get has been made of the need to make progress in NATO cheaper if programmes are delayed or reduced in on burden sharing. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord numbers. Industry must recoup its costs. Robertson, quite rightly drew attention to the challenges Will the Minister say something about the assessment facing the new Secretary-General—no doubt with some work on the FRES Scout reconnaissance vehicle? Not sympathy on his part—with regard to the need further stalling on this, but replacing the antiquated CVR(T)s to develop the transformation and reform agenda quickly, would send a positive message to our troops. within NATO. With all the add-on equipment, they have now become On 6 June, it will be the 65th anniversary of British totally unfightable. and allied servicemen coming ashore on the beaches Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, of Normandy, and there will quite rightly be an Lady Dean, have called for a Strategic Defence Review. international commemoration. These anniversaries are If my party comes to power next year, we are committed important in their own right, and because they underline to carrying this out at an early stage. some of the themes that have been raised in the It is right that we debate the big issues of defence debate: the variety of threats that we face; the crucial and security policy, but it is fundamental that, in so importance of NATO’s mission in Afghanistan; and—a doing, we should always keep in mind the demands unifying factor—the support that we must provide to that such policies make on the people who carry those who are serving or who have served our nation them out. with such distinction in so many ways. Mention was made of the events this morning in Iraq, where the Defence Secretary attended what has 2.46 pm rightly been described as a moving and important ceremony to mark the successful completion of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry British combat mission and the transition to a close of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My Lords, I and, we hope, enduring bilateral relationship with congratulate the noble Lord, Lord King, not just on Iraq. After a commitment lasting more than six years, initiating this debate but also on choosing a topic on British forces will now start to leave southern Iraq, which so many Members of your Lordships’ House with Basra transformed from how they found it six wished to contribute. I add my welcome to the noble years ago. The commanding general of the coalition Baroness, Lady Park. We did—perhaps surprisingly to forces said: some people—agree on one issue some time ago when we mounted a little campaign together. We will not, I “The accomplishment of the British forces across Iraq, and especially in Basra, has been nothing short of brilliant”. am sure, agree on everything, but I welcome her back to the House, having admired her resolution and Brigadier Tom Beckett, commander of 20 Armoured determination during my presence here. Brigade, said today: As has been said, this is a very appropriate time to “We leave knowing we have done our job and done it well”. have a debate on defence. Mention has been made of The importance of this should continue to be in our events in Iraq, quite rightly, but there are also some minds, which is why the Prime Minister and the Defence anniversaries which we might perhaps take a moment Secretary have made a commitment to bring the Basra to recall. Some of your Lordships may recall that it is memorial wall home to a fitting resting place in Britain 40 years to the day since HMS “Resolution” set ready at the National Memorial Arboretum, which is an on 30 April 1969, beginning the continuous at-sea appropriate venue. deterrence. I know that we have had different views in Noble Lords have talked about some of the challenges the House today on the replacement, views which have that we face, and we have had calls, not for the first been robustly countered by the noble Lord, Lord time, for a defence review. Rightly, the Prime Minister Gilbert, and the noble Lord, Lord Astor. Interestingly, has made it clear on more than one occasion that no the Prime Minister also touched on this yesterday at one could have foreseen the sheer scale of the new Prime Minister’s Questions and talked about hopes global challenges that our growing interdependence for non-proliferation and hopes for progress, but also brings; their scale, diversity and the speed with which the need for us to be careful about our own defence. they emerge. That is why the Government have launched Earlier this month, we had the celebration of NATO’s the national security strategy, a new approach which is 60th birthday. Very few people who were present at important for various reasons. It brings home the NATO’s creation would have thought that this alliance range of the threats and challenges and makes it clear would not only outlast the Cold War conditions that that the distinction between defence and security is brought it into being, but successfully oversee the now more difficult to define than ever before. Security redrawing of the map of Europe and arrive at the new is not just about our forces in the conventional way situation, the post-9/11 situation, and the dramatically that people think, but about the critical roles that they different security environment that we now face. I have have to play all around the world. just returned from talks with people in Croatia and The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble Albania, NATO’s newest members, and they, of course, friend Lord Judd also mentioned the importance of come from an area that, only a decade ago, was the role that we play in conflict prevention, helping actually at war. other countries to tackle some of the serious security Mention has also been made today, by the noble challenges that exist around the world which could Lord, Lord Robertson, and others, of the decision by have implications for us as a nation. That is why we in France to return to NATO’s integrated military structure, the UK have trained more than 12,000 African something that I hope we can all welcome. Mention peacekeepers since 2004-05. We should acknowledge 377 Armed Forces[LORDS] Armed Forces 378

[BARONESS TAYLOR OF BOLTON] Equipment, training and support are all extremely the contribution that they make, as well as that of important. On numbers, this is never a static situation, those who are involved in other operations. It is because we always keep these under review. We intend important work. to go up to 9,000 for the election period, of course I will now say a little about the work going on in with the kind of support and force protection that is operations. I have mentioned the events in Iraq today, required to do the job properly. As the Prime Minister which were important and impressive. It is right that pointed out yesterday, in the region of 5,000 other we now move on to a new relationship. United Kingdom troops from European NATO countries are being forces still have, as the noble Lord, Lord Astor, suggested, considered for that kind of role. Some people are an important role to finish there. They are now focusing looking to provide extra police training through the on completing the task of mentoring and training the gendarmeries that exist in some countries, which could 14th division. Importantly, the Royal Navy will continue be very important. It is now generally agreed that we to help to provide security for Iraq’s offshore energy have done well when it comes to delivering equipment infrastructure, as well as trying to help to train the to operations. The £10 billion that we have spent has Iraqi navy. The Royal Air Force provides essential produced very dramatic results, and our operational support for Iraqi security forces as part of the coalition experience has been an important driver in terms of effort. We should commend what our troops have making sure that we are at the cutting edge of new done in Iraq and recognise the continuing role that equipment, and it has brought new ways of working. some will have to play. On the Armed Forces security commitment, we Mention was made of the work on piracy around have made progress with Kestrel and Osprey, but we the Horn of Africa. The United Kingdom is at the do not stop there. Now we want to improve that to forefront of the EU mission, with the operational make lighter equipment of that kind to make movement headquarters at Northwood. The noble Lord, Lord easier, especially in that climate. The subject of vehicles, Sterling, acknowledged the work that goes on there. It on which we have a good story to tell, has already been is important that we also acknowledge the United raised. More than £1 billion of new money has been Kingdom’s lead on international co-ordination through approved for new vehicles for operations, including the international contact group, which brings together £350 million for more than 400 new light and medium civil, maritime, NATO and EU missions going on in vehicles: the Coyote and the Husky—the ones with the that area. It is a United Nations-sanctioned approach, exciting names. We also have the experience of some because it is important that everyone works together of those which we have developed so far, such as the in that way. Mastiff, which has been a tremendous success. They When it comes to operations, our main thoughts at are getting into the field very quickly; I was asked the moment are with Afghanistan. Mention has been about that earlier. However, I remind the House that made of the importance of the Afghanistan-Pakistan we are not simply buying these vehicles off the shelf. dimension, of which we in this country were always They often have to be developed to meet the challenging aware because, as was said earlier, we have to learn conditions we face in Afghanistan. We must commend from our history. Yesterday’s Statement made it very industry and those in the MoD working in this area. clear that our main responsibility is to provide security They have turned the speed of development around, for the area. We have to train the Afghan police and which is important. army. We have to establish the rule of law, and we have We have also made significant progress in the air. to help Afghans to tackle corruption and then to move We have managed to maintain extra flying hours: on to economic development. helicopter flying hours in Afghanistan are now 84 per The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, mentioned other cent higher than in November 2006. There are a whole important issues, such as the rights of women. He had variety of initiatives for upgrading helicopters and horrific statistics. That motivates us to help in many working with other countries on them. It is significant countries where there are problems of that kind. It is that real progress has been made. Of course, we could important to remember that we do not have a military always use more helicopters on operations, but it is operation there because of that. We have a military important to realise that those in charge in the field operation in Afghanistan to underpin our own security, have sufficient resources for their requirements. because of all the threats that have emanated from With five minutes to go, it is difficult to cover all the there in the recent past. The noble Earl is right that we issues. Some other equipment matters were raised. need a comprehensive approach to these issues, and Noble Lords have discussed the wisdom or otherwise we need to have joined-up government both here and of aircraft carriers. Our problem with equipment is on operations to maximise what we can do. that we will always want the best of everything. The The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, suggested noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, talked about which fast jet that our Armed Forces needed to know the answer to we need. However, different vehicles have different the old question, “Is our country behind us?”. I think attributes. We must ensure that we get the best value that the country is behind our Armed Forces, but the for money and work with partners where we can, and noble and learned Lord is right to suggest that sometimes learn from the urgent operational requirements that we have to remind the public of the dangers of not sometimes getting something relatively simple and participating, not taking control and not re-establishing straightforward that we can build on later can be of security in that area. The origins of 9/11, the Madrid great benefit even though that is not often how we do bombing and the London Tube bombings can all be things. traced back to that area, and we have to make progress I was asked specifically about the A400M. That in our own interests. contract is causing us considerable concern, as it is for 379 Armed Forces[30 APRIL 2009] Sri Lanka 380 our partner nations. We are worried about this and rightly said, it has attracted considerable interest and I seeking to make progress. We cannot allow a gap in am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. I our capabilities and are therefore exploring a number have heard every speech except for just a couple; I will of options including the procurement or lease of certainly read those, particularly as I have been told additional C17s or C130Js, or extending the life of that they said nice things about me. some of our C130Ks. The issue is causing concern, but I am not surprised that a lot of people wanted to will not be solved by this country alone. take part in the debate. That underlines our present In the few minutes remaining, I will say a word deep concern. Many noble Lords have said that this about our Armed Forces and our work on the service was an appropriate time for this debate and have alluded command paper issues. I remind the House that this to the events in Basra this morning, and the recent was a first: an unprecedented piece of cross-government developments with the Prime Minister’s Statement on work, bringing together all the issues affecting our Afghanistan and Pakistan and the Statement on the service personnel. It is important to remember the two reserves referred to by my noble friend Lord Attlee. key principles upon which it was based. First, no Against this background, I noticed that the noble Lord, disadvantage should flow from service in our Armed Lord Robertson, launched the theme of a need for a Forces. Secondly, in certain circumstances, it is right strategic defence review. That, in different forms with and proper for our Armed Forces to be treated in a different words, was picked up widely around the House. special way, particularly when they have been injured There is now absolutely no question that we face a in the course of duty. serious situation, undoubtedly made even more grave We are investing in a whole range of issues and by the current financial position. However, as I said in working with other government departments and devolved my opening remarks, we went into this financial problem Administrations. On accommodation, for example, already in a difficult situation. The challenges are there. the Chancellor announced last week that £50 million This debate was about our Armed Forces. Everybody will be brought forward to build new MoD houses to has paid tribute to their courage, fortitude and tackle the legacy of underinvestment in that area, achievements. In those circumstances, and in recognition which is important. The pay review board is out, and of that, we owe it to them to ensure that the policies, people will welcome that settlement. Health was provisions and the circumstances in which they operate mentioned today. The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, are the very best that we can provide for them to do said that the Defence Medical Welfare Service was not their outstanding work. Against that background, with well known. She makes it very well known on many great appreciation for all those who have taken part, I occasions in these debates. Others have spoken of the beg leave to withdraw the Motion. fantastic service at Headley Court. It is significant that the chair of the Healthcare Commission said recently Motion withdrawn. that there is absolutely no question that personnel injured in battle have a better chance of survival than ever before, and that this is entirely due to the efficient Sri Lanka and innovative care delivered under exceptionally difficult Statement circumstances. That is something that we should be and are doing—as, 3.09 pm indeed, we are doing more on mental health. It is important to recognise that the community-based veterans’ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth pilot health schemes are important and could show us Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, with permission the way forward. As with mental health generally, this I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place has been a neglected area in the past and a great deal by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. of attention has been paid to it since. The Statement is as follows: Lastly, on recognition, the noble Baroness, Lady “Mr Speaker, with your permission I will make a Dean, mentioned the reception in the House of Lords Statement about the civilian crisis in Sri Lanka. I and the fantastic response of colleagues, although she returned this morning from a visit there with the said that they were sometimes surprised. We have all French Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner. I regret welcomed the tremendous public turnout at the that the Sri Lankan authorities declined to allow our homecoming parades and civic receptions. That is a Swedish counterpart, Carl Bildt, to join us. Our visit tangible expression of the public support and appreciation to Sri Lanka was prompted by our increasing concern of our Armed Forces. We all have a responsibility to for civilians in the north of the country, particularly ensure that there is no dislocation and that the public the plight of the civilian Tamil population. There are understand that our Armed Forces are working in in fact two crises: that of the civilians trapped in the order to help and protect them. We also all have a conflict zone as the Government enter the final stage responsibility to the families of our armed servicemen. of their fight with the LTTE terrorists, and that of the I welcome a debate of this kind. It has been timely. tens of thousands of civilians who have crossed over In many ways, it has united this House in appreciation the front line in recent days. of and respect for the work of our Armed Forces. The purpose of the visit was twofold: first, to highlight the need to bring the conflict to an end in a 3.07 pm way that minimises further civilian casualties; and, Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, first, I express secondly, to press the need for a long-term political my gratitude to the Minister for the conscientious way settlement that meets the aspirations of all communities in which she has responded to the debate. As she in Sri Lanka. Foreign Minister Kouchner and I met 381 Sri Lanka[LORDS] Sri Lanka 382

[LORD MALLOCH-BROWN] Government appear to put unnecessary obstacles in President Rajapakse, Foreign Minister Bogollagama, the way of them and of others trying to assist the the leader of the Opposition and Tamil and Muslim Government in dealing with this crisis. The agencies mainstream politicians. I am grateful for the way the lack any access to IDPs until they have already been Sri Lankan Government facilitated our visit. We were through a preliminary screening process, and do not briefed by the heads of the main UN agencies and the have full access to the camps; visas and authorisations ICRC. We also visited a government-run camp for to move people and goods into and around the country internally displaced people at Vavuniya and visited a are too limited. Meanwhile, people are not being field hospital donated by the French Government. I allowed out of the camps and many families have been heard a number of personal testimonies from recent separated. Some men, alleged to be LTTE cadres, have arrivals in the camp. been taken from families and placed in so-called rehabilitation camps. All of this reinforces the need for The fog of war makes it difficult to be certain of the full and unhindered access by the UN and other agencies. facts of the present situation. That is compounded by the lack of access for international agencies and the We therefore returned again and again in our talks media. I heard widely different estimates of the number to five specific needs in respect of the humanitarian of civilians still trapped in the conflict zone. Government situation: first, for visas to be issued to international estimates ranged from 6,000 to 20,000; the UN, ICRC humanitarian staff swiftly; secondly, for travel permits and most others reckon that there were at least 50,000, for staff working on approved projects inside Sri Lanka; and some thought that the number could be as high as thirdly, for full access to IDPs as soon as they have 100,000. Whatever the truth, it is clear that significant crossed the front line and monitoring of all stages of numbers remain, living under appalling conditions, screening; fourthly, for a proper resettlement programme undernourished and in fear for their lives. I heard with specific deadlines to fulfil the Government’s reports of civilians hiding in trenches to escape the commitment to 80 per cent of IDPs resettled by year’s shelling and of horrific injuries. I also spoke to people end; and, fifthly, to allow the distribution of sufficient in the IDP camps who recounted how the LTTE had food and medicine to meet the needs of civilians forced them to stay in the so-called no-fire zone against trapped in the conflict zone. We were promised intensive their will, and shot at them when they tried to flee. follow-up by the Sri Lankan Government and we will continue to engage with them on those issues. We were told that 30 tonnes of food were delivered to the conflict zone between 1 April and 27 April, At present, the Sri Lankan Government are engaged apparently enough to feed 60,000 people for just one in a war without witness in the north of the country. day. A further ship delivered limited supplies during Civilians have fled the terror of the LTTE, but are our visit. The ICRC has only been able to send in very afraid of what awaits them at the hands of the limited medical supplies, despite having plentiful stocks Government and unsure whether they will ever be in Sri Lanka. The block on deliveries of food and allowed to return home. We were given assurances by medical supplies hinges on security. To deliver these the Sri Lankan Government that they had nothing to essentials to those innocent civilians trapped in the hide; we responded that it could therefore only be to conflict zone, there needs to be safety. Ships take time their benefit to work with the international community to unload and the pauses provided by the Sri Lankan in a fully transparent way. By giving UN agencies and Government have not been long enough. As the House international NGOs the freedom to operate to capacity knows, the Government of Sri Lanka declared an end in all areas, the Sri Lankan Government would bring to combat operations on 27 April; the President and much needed relief to many thousands of traumatised Defence Secretary confirmed that to me personally people, but also bring the confidence of the international and in definite terms. Those commitments must be community. upheld. My right honourable friend for Kilmarnock and In our discussions with the President and the Foreign Loudoun will be taking up the invitation of President Minister, Bernard Kouchner and I made it clear that Rajapakse to visit Sri Lanka as part of a cross-party the protection of civilians must be paramount. We group of MPs next week, and will pursue those five emphasised that if the LTTE had any heart at all, it points. The other members of the group will be the would let the civilians leave the conflict zone. As G8 right honourable Member for Gordon and the honourable Foreign Ministers said in their statement of 25 April, Members for South Down, for Buckingham and for we were very clear that the time for the conflict to end Glasgow Central. I share the gratitude of my right is now. We were briefed in detail by the Sri Lankan honourable friend for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that authorities on their humanitarian relief efforts outside they have agreed to take part in this important visit. I the conflict zone. We welcomed that exchange of will be visiting New York on 11 May and will pursue information, the extensive work that was under way further UN involvement in the crisis. I will be and the commitments made. Nevertheless, some of discussing with Hillary Clinton and other like-minded what we were told contradicted the information given colleagues how we can work more closely together to to us by the international humanitarian agencies. find a way to bring the fighting to a stop. According to the UN, 161,765 Tamils have left the I am grateful to all Members of the House who conflict zone since October last year, including 119,000 contributed to the debate yesterday. No one should in the last 10 days. This is very welcome, but the underestimate the murderous damage done to numbers have seriously challenged the Sri Lankan Sri Lanka over the past 26 years by the LTTE, or the authorities. The UN agencies were frustrated that the sheer hatred felt for its leadership. That is recognised 383 Sri Lanka[30 APRIL 2009] Sri Lanka 384 in the international community. But while terrorist possible? Aid workers have told UNHCR that some of organisations work by killing people, democratic the people in the camps have not eaten for days, and Governments exist to protect them. That is why the cite growing problems of hunger, lack of transport to fighting in Sri Lanka must end now. The LTTE is move the sick to hospitals and a shortage of medical apparently cornered and trapped, having inflicted personnel. Has the Foreign Secretary raised these grievous suffering on the people of Sri Lanka, primarily issues with the government officials whom he met in Sinhalese and Tamil but also Muslims. How the conflict Sri Lanka? Can the noble Lord update the House as is ended will have a direct bearing on the prospects for regards the 13 UN staff members who have been long-term peace in the country. The Government must prevented from leaving IDP camps despite repeated win the peace as well as win the war. That will be the promises from the Government that they will be continuing focus of this Government’s activity, hand released? in hand with international partners, in the days and My second set of questions concerns the efforts to weeks ahead”. secure a ceasefire. Does the noble Lord see a need for formal UN Security Council involvement—for example, a UN resolution—to persuade both sides to lay down 3.19 pm arms? Earlier today, the Foreign Secretary said to my Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the Minister right honourable friend the shadow Foreign Secretary for repeating the Statement made by the Foreign that he would speak to the US Secretary of State, Secretary in another place. The Conservative Mrs Hillary Clinton, today. I wonder whether he has Benches share his deep concern about the desperate spoken to her yet and what the outcome of those humanitarian crisis in northern Sri Lanka and the discussions was. What discussions have the Foreign suffering of innocent civilians who have been trapped Secretary or the Prime Minister’s envoy had with the by the fighting. We reiterate his calls for a lasting Commonwealth about using that organisation’s weight ceasefire. It was surely right for the Foreign Secretary and influence to encourage Sri Lanka to ends its to travel to Sri Lanka with the French Foreign Minister. operations and bring about a long-term ceasefire, In the words of the Red Cross—here I declare an called for by the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative interest as being a vice-president and a former working and Human Rights Watch? member for more than 30 years—the situation in the Thirdly and finally, does the Minister agree that north of the country is “nothing short of catastrophic”. there can be no military solution to this conflict, and Civilians trapped in the tiny enclave are desperately that the only way forward is a negotiated settlement short of food, water and medical care and remain that satisfies the concerns and legitimate aspirations in the firing line. The United Nations estimates that as of all Sri Lankans and preserves democracy in the many as 6,500 civilians may have been killed and country? What assurances has he received from the Sri another 14,000 wounded in the Government’s offensive Lankan Government about their commitment to such this year. a political process? Has he received any indication I would like to raise three sets of questions relating from the Sri Lankan Government that they will be to the Minister’s three points on the humanitarian prepared to accept the UK’s nominated special envoy? crisis, the efforts to secure a ceasefire and the long-term Are the Government confident that the envoy is able prospects for a political solution in Sri Lanka. We to make a meaningful contribution to resolving the welcome the additional UK humanitarian aid for Sri conflict without acceptance by the Sri Lankan Lanka that the Minister has outlined. According to Government? the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian The distinction between foreign and domestic policy Affairs, at least 50,000 people are still trapped in the has nowadays become blurred. A growing number of conflict zone, which has shrunk to less than 10 square our citizens live simultaneously in many homelands. kilometres. Is he fully satisfied that the Sri Lankan What happens in Sri Lanka yesterday may well have Government have heeded international calls to show an impact on Britain today. This means that we have the maximum possible restraint in their operations in to take into account that our own domestic policy has the area? to be foreign policy as well. Again, I thank the Minister There seems to be some confusion regarding the for repeating the Statement. In the same spirit, I hope use of heavy weapons by the government forces. Can he will continue to keep the House informed through the noble Lord assure the House that the Sri Lankan Oral and Written Statements. Government have heeded international calls to stop all use of heavy weapons in the fighting zone, and that it has been possible to verify this? For the record, is he 3.25 pm confident, too, that no UK-supplied defence equipment Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank the noble or technology has been used in attacks on civilians Lord for repeating the Statement. The Foreign Secretary’s during the conflict, and have efforts been made to visit to Sri Lanka is very welcome, although I am sorry ascertain this? Have the Sri Lankan Government agreed that the Swedish Foreign Minister was not given a to permit aid convoys to reach the fighting zone by visa. I am glad that it is to be followed up by the road, which we understand has not been possible since cross-party delegation of MPs, including my right 20 January? honourable friend Malcolm Bruce, chair of the We strongly support the UN Secretary-General’s International Development Select Committee. decision to dispatch a humanitarian team to the conflict Does the noble Lord agree that it is extraordinary zone, and support his call for the mission to be allowed how little the international community has been able into the area as soon as possible. Has that been thus far to protect the civilians trapped between rebel 385 Sri Lanka[LORDS] Sri Lanka 386

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] 3.30 pm and government forces? Surely this is a case where the UN has a duty to protect. How, in practice, can this be Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I thank both noble carried through in such circumstances? What role can Baronesses for their statements. I shall try to respond international humanitarian law play here? Both sides to the many questions they have posed with the caveat are accusing each other of atrocities. What independent used by the Foreign Secretary of the “fog of war”. investigation of possible atrocities might be undertaken Frankly, much of the detail of this conflict, such as the and would the UK Government support it? Does the number of casualties or whether war crimes have been Minister agree that both sides should be warned that committed, is very hard to establish at the moment. they are personally accountable in this area? What will The international agencies, not having the degree of be done to ensure that things do not now spiral into access that they might normally have in such a situation, revenge killings? are forced to make guesstimates and to acknowledge that on certain issues they do not have enough information It is appalling that the UN humanitarian organisations on which to offer a judgment. and the media have been so restricted. As the noble On the number of civilians still trapped in the Lord pointed out, it is surely in the interests of the conflict zone, although the Government believe that Sri Lankan Government to allow them through, given the number may be as low as some thousands, and the claims that they themselves have made. This is yet perhaps up to 6,000, the United Nations believes that another conflict where accounts from one side simply the figure is more than 50,000 and has said so publicly. do not tally with the other and we must rely on the There is no agreement even on the size of the remaining neutrality of the UN and ICRC. Given what the civilian problem. Certainly the Foreign Secretary and Sri Lankan Government have said about a ceasefire, his French counterpart urged the maximum restraint what plans are there for getting civilians out and aid on the Government of Sri Lanka and they have just in? The Tamil Tigers should immediately allow civilians announced that there would be an end to the use of to leave and cease forced recruitment. Civilians and heavy weapons. That issue came up in the two Foreign fighters who agree to lay down their arms need strong Secretaries’ meeting with the Sri Lankan defence minister, international guarantees of their safety.Only international where it was observed that suspending the use of these supervision, unhindered by the Government, can provide weapons came as a surprise because people thought the necessary level of protection. that they had already stopped using them. There is Some have expressed a fear of genocide. Is Britain continued uncertainty about exactly the type of fighting meeting all its obligations under the 1948 Convention that is going on. The Government insist that it is now on Genocide, given that these accusations have been in a last-phase operation and others allege that there is made? The UN and the ICRC must become responsible still very heavy fighting. for supervising all stages of the screening process On the access of aid convoys by road and by sea, when people enter and leave any IDP camps. This the two Foreign Secretaries insisted to the Government must be fully documented. We hear some very worrying that there was now plenty of aid, both food and stories. What will be done to ensure that people can medical supplies, in the country and that the key issue then return home and that areas will not, for example, is access—the ability to deliver the aid. Not nearly be designated as militarily sensitive zones, to which enough food, medical supplies or indeed aid workers people cannot return? have been able to enter the area. As we look at points of pressure, what is happening I turn to whether British military assistance has to put pressure on the LTTE to let civilians go? What been used in the conflict. As this conflict is not a new further pressure can be put on the Sri Lankan one, we have issued export licences for military equipment Government, who, as the noble Lord said, are not a in a very limited and, I hope, judicious way. Although terrorist group but a Government with particular we have not investigated the matter, I very much hope responsibilities? What is the Government’s position on that no such materiel has been used. Sri Lanka’s request for a significant IMF loan? Surely On the 13 UN workers, I believe that they still have Sri Lanka must first listen to the reasonable humanitarian not been released from the camps. I cannot tell the requests of the international community. noble Baroness whether the Secretary of State and Foreign Secretary have yet spoken. As the Statement What discussions has the Minister had with other in the Commons was not that long ago, I am afraid the Governments to produce a package of other financial noble Baroness has caught me on that one. sanctions, such as the end to all non-emergency development aid, which might be imposed on the On the Commonwealth discussions, I have been Government of Sri Lanka if they fail to listen, as has leading those and have been in regular touch with the been suggested by the International Crisis Group Commonwealth secretary-general who, at this moment, and others? Beyond that, does he agree, as the noble is trying to organise the next CMAG. At the previous Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said, that no lasting peace one, Sri Lanka was raised under other business. He is will be possible if the concerns of both communities determined that it should be raised. Sri Lanka itself is are not addressed? What plans are there for full currently a member of CMAG, which is about the international engagement to ensure that a just peace breakdown of democracy in terms of the Harare follows the bloodshed of this period? Without that, principles that it seeks to enforce. The case needs to be Sri Lanka will continue to be extremely unstable, made about the grounds and terms on which this which is in no one’s interests, from whichever community discussion can take place, but the Commonwealth they come. secretary-general has been clear in condemning the 387 Sri Lanka[30 APRIL 2009] Sri Lanka 388 conflict, appealing for a ceasefire, and stating that this for the past four months, as they have been driven matter is the business and concern of the Commonwealth from the northern end of central Sri Lanka right to and that the Commonwealth has a role to play. the far north-east of that country? Furthermore, the On the issue of there being no military solutions, Tamil Tigers could have released all those people at we confirm that there needs to be a political process of any point but still today they refuse to let them go. Is it reconciliation. We also need to be clear that this not a fact that the only people who have managed to conflict has reached a point where one side has won in escape have done so because of the smashing of the all but final name. Therefore, the conclusion of the bund by the government forces ensured that refugees fighting needs to be organised around that fact of life could come through? It is a war, not a conflict. It is a on the battlefield. We need to get an orderly end to the war that has gone on for 25 years and must be brought conflict followed by a process of political reconciliation to an end when the Tamil Tigers either surrender or and a meeting of the legitimate need for a say in their are eliminated. own government for the Tamil people. Otherwise, one Turning to humanitarian matters, is it not time that can only fear that this conflict will resume in different, the international community recognised that there are equally viral and pernicious forms in both Sri Lanka a quarter of a million refugees there in temporary and abroad at a later date. We have been very clear camps who must be resettled? Should we in this country that, while these two processes may be separate, there not now take a lead? Why could we not take a lead in must be an end to the fighting and then a process of restoring Kilinochchi, the provincial centre for Sri Lanka, political reconciliation to address the roots of the and encourage others to join us so that we can resettle conflict. The UK special envoy will be visiting next those poor people—not just Tamil, not just Sinhalese, week as part of a parliamentary delegation. He has not just Muslims? There are nearly 250,000 in the already been very active both internationally and with current camps and 100,000 left over from the earlier the Tamil community here in the UK, so we hope he is stages of the war. If this country believes in its special going to play an important part in the next steps of relationship with Sri Lanka, can we not give a real this process. lead? Although the £2.5 million promised by the Prime I agree with the noble Baroness that there is a clear Minister on Sunday is welcome, it is only a drop in the UN duty to protect. It seems, in many ways, to meet ocean. Should we not be talking about substantial the conditions of the responsibility to protect whereas sums to achieve the resettlement of those poor people? the Government, because of the conflict, may not have properly met the need to protect their own civilian Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, as the Foreign population. As always with a doctrine of international Secretary made clear in the Statement, the LTTE is a humanitarian law, the real issue is enforcement or terrorist organisation that has held up to 200,000 implementation of that concept. The UN Secretary- civilians as human shields. He said that plenty of General has been enormously active, as has his Under- evidence was confirmed to him directly in his interviews Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs, in terms in the transit camp that he visited that people who had of seeking to secure entry to the conflict zones for a tried to escape had been shot at and, in many cases, UN team to assess what is going on and, subsequently, killed. There is no condoning, excusing, apologising to contribute to providing humanitarian assistance in for or defending the behaviour of the LTTE. Given that zone, arriving at a ceasefire, and improving the that, fortunately and to the great relief of everyone, conditions and protection arrangements for civilians the democratic Government of Sri Lanka have the in the transit camps. The commitment that the UN upper hand and are on the verge of finishing this Secretary-General thought he had for such a deployment conflict, it is perfectly proper for us as allies of that has been challenged and delayed, so the UN is frustrated Government to expect from them the standards of a at not having more access at this time. It is seized with democratic Government: that they allow access and this and there have been urgent discussions in both ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches the victims New York and Colombo. of the conflict; and that, in their military operations, As to the role of the IMF loan, the preparations for they act prudently to protect civilians—on the simple that are continuing. It is due to be considered by the principle, if no other, that two wrongs do not make a IMF board in the middle of the month and at that right. time it will be important to arrive at a view on it. On the noble Lord’s suggestion that we commit Obviously, we have been trying to ensure that the IMF more resources for the resettlement of Tamils and financing of countries caught up in the global economic others, I have no doubt that the time for that will come crisis is done in as urgent and felicitous a way as and that the UK will be a generous donor, but let me possible, but we cannot look at this in isolation from again say that at the moment the issue is not resources, the broader conflict currently underway in the country. which are available for this phase, but access for that humanitarian assistance which is in-country but cannot reach the victims. Most critical in future will be the 3.39 pm willingness of the Government to live up to their Lord Naseby: My Lords, is the Minister aware that pledge to resettle 80 per cent of those in camps by the it is very welcome to see our Foreign Secretary go to end of this year. Then there will be something that we Sri Lanka? If nothing else, it must have been a reality can support in long-term rehabilitation. At the moment, check for him. Does the Minister agree, however, that the people remain in camps. whatever way we look at it, the Tamil Tigers are a terrorist organisation? They do not represent the Tamil Lord Sheikh: My Lords, there is a significant Tamil community. Is it not incredible that close to one quarter diaspora in this country. They are very concerned of a million people have been used as a human shield about what is happening to their friends and relatives, 389 Sri Lanka[LORDS] Health 390

[LORD SHEIKH] Health and we are very concerned about the humanitarian issue. As we all know, the Tamils are protesting outside Debate in Parliament Square, and they have also been outside the Indian High Commission. Has the Minister met 3.48 pm the Tamil leaders to assure them that have done everything Moved By Baroness Knight of Collingtree possible to resolve the situation; and is there something To call attention to the Government’s public special that they would like us to do? We learnt a lot by health agenda; and to move for papers. resolving the conflict in Northern Ireland, and I am sure that we would have something significant to offer Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, I would to reach long-term peace. like to make it clear at the outset that those of us who criticise the NHS are not for one moment ignorant of, Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, let me tell the or unappreciative of, the great amount of good, even noble Lord one very good piece of news. The last brilliant, treatment that so many patients receive. It remaining young hunger striker today suspended his must not be assumed that because we draw attention hunger strike and has been taken to hospital. More to the undeniable fact that some patients are very broadly, there has been a welcome by those outside to badly treated and beg for deficiencies to be remedied the visit of the Foreign Secretary and to the efforts of we are condemning the whole NHS. We certainly are my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and not. But there are thousands of cases where clear the Foreign Secretary to address this issue and this proof of bad, even inhumane, treatment has resulted crisis with the vigour that we have. We have sought to in suffering and death. We have a duty to bring those do what we think is proper in terms of the humanitarian cases to public attention and to try to put things right, case that we have made in Sri Lanka and what is which is appallingly difficult. proper in terms of British national interests. We have Since 2002, I have been trying to ensure that hospital sought to communicate intensively with the British patients are routinely given food and water. In 2003, Tamils outside here in terms of those objectives. Equally, my Patients’ Protection Bill put forward some solutions; we have tried to take pains not to allow British policy for instance, asking relatives and friends if they could to somehow be held hostage to these demonstrations. come in and feed or give a drink to helpless patients, The critical thing has been to do what is right. which is quite common practice in many European countries. That and other suggestions fell by the wayside. The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I The Bill was allowed no further than Second Reading. am very grateful for the report and for the work that is Six long years later it is reported that patients in being done in Sri Lanka. In the context of our particular Stafford Hospital are so desperate to have a drink that link in Ripon with the churches in Sri Lanka and, they pull the flowers out of the vases and drink what is particularly with the Bishop Duleep de Chickera of left. It is also reported that many have become severely Colombo, will the Government affirm, recognise and dehydrated. I cannot bear to think of the suffering support the role of the churches as a tiny minority in that they must have endured, nor that if warnings had Sri Lanka, working with international friends and been heeded and acted on, that suffering need never allies in seeking to achieve peace, justice and humanitarian have happened. aid for all communities there? Will he comment on our The past six years have made no difference for the view that the vast majority of Sinhalese, Tamils and patients who do not get fed either. Only last month, Muslims in Sri Lanka want peace, work for it and that figures came out showing that almost 30,000 hospital that is a source of substantial hope for the future? meals are thrown away uneaten and untouched every day. Is that because they are inedible or because some Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I had the privilege are not fed to patients? Or is it because the plate was of meeting the Bishop of Colombo when he was here put too far away for the patient to reach and whipped for the Lambeth Conference. I saw him as a remarkable away with no help offered in either reaching or feeding, spokesman, not just for the issues of the Tamils in this which is extremely common? Some hospitals throw conflict, but for broader issues of freedom of speech, away more than one-third of prepared meals. Some freedom of the media and freedom of religion in the are even worse: the Middlesbrough primary care trust country. threw away 43 per cent of all prepared meals. What a In a country that enjoys a democratically elected wicked waste. government, and a multi-ethnic society where strains When asked about this, a health Minister in the have inevitably been introduced by such a violent and other place blithely commented that no one should be brutal 25-year civil war, he, and the churches more concerned and that the situation merely reflects the generally, have been important spokespeople for tolerance need to give patients a choice. But I understand that and mutual understanding and for the communities those meals had already been ordered by the patients. living in peace with each other. I affirm what the right They had made their choice. That excuse will not reverend Prelate says; the great majority of Sri Lankans wash: figures released show that more than 8,000 people do live in peace with each other, are proud of the left hospital last year clinically malnourished. More tolerance that they show towards each other and are than 240 people die in hospitals and care homes in as concerned as any outsider about the loss of tolerance England from malnutrition every year, which is truly that has resulted from a brutal civil war that has shocking. sharpened and hardened what has been a very It is very wrong that there are still instances of compassionate, tolerant and inter-ethnic understanding. MRSA, C. difficile and other killer bugs in our hospitals. 391 Health[30 APRIL 2009] Health 392

Great efforts have been made to make the wards clean. The setting up of the CQC will hardly improve Billions of extra pounds have been spent, but 24 trusts matters, since the lady named as chief executive is the still fail basic hygiene tests. Wards are too crowded, very same person who was responsible for checking with beds often packed tightly together. Nurses go out the standards of care at Stafford Hospital, to which I and about in the towns nearby, still wearing their have already referred. That has a dreadful record. It is uniforms. They pick up germs everywhere and go reported that hundreds died there needlessly because straight back to deal with patients in the same uniforms— standards of healthcare were so bad. It is reported which matron would never have allowed. Some hospitals that the number was somewhere between 400 and allow too many visitors. 1,200. That does not sound as if her checking was up I am extremely concerned to have heard from several to much. Whatever excuses may be made, whatever sources that the true numbers of deaths from these denials or apologies, the Government cannot expect bugs are deliberately hidden and that death certificates that this chief executive, with this record at Stafford often state the cause of death to be something other Hospital, comes into her new job with any confident than MRSA et cetera. Trusts do not want the true backing. cause known. No questions are asked if a person dies That excellent organisation, Help the Aged, is currently of pneumonia or a heart attack, but they do not want campaigning for sick and elderly people in hospitals to to let it get out that people are still dying of MRSA. be treated with dignity. It has my strong support, Surely falsifying a death certificate is illegal. especially its demand for an end to mixed wards. There is no dignity, and small protection, for those Replacing matrons with managers was a mistake. I finding themselves in the next bed to a stranger of the am sure that many hospital managers could run businesses opposite sex at night, when there are not many staff brilliantly. But a hospital is not a business. One needs about, and the ward is dark and undersupervised. to have some medical knowledge in the task. Managers Ministers seem to have given up on the problem. They are not matrons. The former cannot be expected to say the sexes cannot be separated. Why not? They run a hospital as efficiently as the latter. always were. Unless we are talking about intensive I have raised other cases of bad treatment. For care and patients who are unconscious, mixed wards example, some patients are left in a cold ward with are an abomination. windows wide open and no warm coverings. Their There is no dignity in being left to lie for hours in a deaf aids are taken or lost, which can make them seem soiled bed. On 31 March, the BBC reported the case of confused and subnormal, and stricter discipline can a pensioner who snatched her elderly husband from a be enforced. Ignoring repeated cries for help in getting Stevenage hospital. She was so upset at his bad treatment, to the bathroom is also common. A dossier of 25 cases, including being left in a wet bed, that she resolved to all of which I checked personally, was submitted to take him away—and she did. There was a row with the Ministers in this House. Those Ministers were helpful. staff, who threatened her with the police. That should They listened and the details were passed to the trusts never have happened, but it has happened since. The concerned—where they met a blank wall. The allegations staff have no right to threaten such people with police were either ignored or denied. Some of them were not action and give them a police record. That is appalling. investigated at all. The only thing that came out of the Since then, that lady’s husband has been fine, much exercise was the introduction of a mysterious thing more comfortable and happy.I understand that following called a red tray. No one explained what it was, how it the programme, the BBC was deluged with listeners was proposed to use it, or what instructions to staff who knew from experience exactly why the wife was went with it. The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, kindly determined to take him. His was not an isolated case. I told me of her own personal experience, but none of could mention other wrongs, but time is short and the officials explained. So we never got far with the others wish to speak. dossier. How sad that, while medicine and pharmacology The big question is whether this new body, the Care have made such enormous strides, the standards of Quality Commission, will do better. Well, it is not care and respect for patients as human beings has exactly a new body, more a grouping together of three declined almost past belief. Our brilliant surgeons can old bodies. The trouble is that, none of them, do heart, liver and kidney transplants—soon they will individually, has managed to right the wrongs that be doing whole face transplants, apparently—and our exist. In the introductory papers about the new marvellous scientists can produce drugs that can combat body there is no admission whatever that there ever almost every known disease. We have thousands of were any wrongs. The document says that the CQC excellent nurses, but we can no longer ensure that will build on the good work of the existing people who go into hospital will receive the most basic commissions. That is the same old refusal to admit care or keep their dignity. Does the Government’s there is anything at all amiss—no hint of acceptance public health agenda include any resolve to tackle that improvements are needed. Sack the whistleblower: these problems? ignore the evidence. Another quote from the document that the CQC 4pm put out says, Lord Addington: My Lords, I congratulate the noble “our job is to make sure that providers continue to meet … Baroness, Lady Knight, on her determination to follow quality standards”. through on a subject that she so clearly cares passionately What does it mean “continue”? What quality are we about. I have chosen to concentrate on a different talking about? It has not even started. aspect of the public health agenda, which is that of 393 Health[LORDS] Health 394 trying to get people to help themselves through The question here is how we will achieve this aim. encouraging them to exercise. I often feel that I have to The document about the Olympics gives examples of talk by myself on this subject and that people do not how it might be achieved. However, the fact that we relate to me, but now I have the happy experience of have a huge event that people watch on television will being able to refer to an NHS document. I shall give not guarantee greater participation, although it may the full title: A Systematic Review of the Evidence Base encourage it in a few areas. It became blindingly for Developing a Physical Activity and Health Legacy obvious to me when it was pointed out that it may from the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. encourage people to take sport more seriously and What the document shows as you go through it is that push on to the next level but it will not necessarily there is a huge public health benefit to be derived from encourage people to take up sport. This may be because getting people to take exercise. That is not a revelation, it is discouraging to see the world’s best when you are but the fact is that we should exercise because it is one wandering around without the basic skills. of the most effective forms of, let us say, self-maintenance. How will the Government tap in and allow greater The problem is that the Olympic Games have gone participation? Will the Department of Health make from being a dream to a cure-all in many fields. The sure that there is better funding for basic-level coaching? document goes into how things should be implemented This could be about movement and the ability to and lists local authorities, primary care trusts, schools, participate in sport occasionally. If you occasionally colleges and stakeholders. Later it mentions local play five-a-side football and keep yourself fit enough government, LOCOG, national stakeholders and so to do so, exercise and sport will combine. on. Noble Lords will get the idea. I have spoken about Do the Government have a definitive method for the benefits of exercise before, which has produced counting the increase in exercise? The same applies to interesting exchanges. I have often asked the noble interest in sport. If there was such a measure, at least Lord, Lord Davies, which department is responsible we could tell whether we were succeeding or not. for increasing the take-up of exercise. He has responded There is no guarantee. If the Government turn round by saying that it is the NHS or the Treasury. When I and say, “Our gains are more successful than anyone’s ask who will do it, one or other of those two departments in the past for increasing participation”, we will have a will be quoted, but how do they work together and good excuse for bringing to account the relevant Minister, where is the guidance? because this is the first Olympics where the Government I suggest that in encouraging people to take exercise have said that this is one of their goals. We must have and play more sport, we should note the difference realistic, minimum targets. between what is exercise and what is sport. It is rather I now turn to a matter for which the Department of odd. Sport is something that you decide is a sport. Health must bear sole responsibility: the provision of Going for a run can be thought of as a sport, but sport and exercise medicine. I asked about this a people may regard it as a way of trying to keep their couple of weeks ago—the exact date escapes me—and waistline down because the doctor told them to or the Minister pointed out that in 2005 the Government they want to fit into last year’s clothes. Is running a gave a commitment to provide enough consultants in sport or is sport something that needs a different type sport and exercise medicine. The figures that I have are of support structure? that there are eight trained individuals, whereas it is Having indulged myself for a few minutes, I come reckoned that we need 72 as a basic requirement. In to the essence of what I am trying to get at today. How the medical system, consultants are required to pass are the Government going to support both the Olympic on information and to make sure that people have the movement and other bodies that work with sports at necessary support. the participation level, where we are not talking about elite athletes? How is the Department of Health There is a movement to replace certain kinds of encouraging people to get involved? For instance, is drug therapy with exercise therapy. That relates to the the department going to develop a policy of naming obesity strategy and so on, but I will not go into that. and shaming local authorities that do not provide The noble Baroness can take as read my criticism of sufficient parks in which to take a pleasant walk? That the body mass index as a guide to obesity. The index is basic exercise rather than playing a sport. A good fails to take into account that someone may be heavier walking strategy for each town centre should be provided built and that muscle per volume is much heavier than because it certainly would cover an exercise agenda. fat. My favourite statistic relates to Pinsent and Redgrave. Will we make sure that local authorities have to comply When they won their last medal, they were simply or, if they do not have to, will we shame them if they heavily overweight as opposed to obese. The body do not? Are we going to ensure that there is sufficient mass index is a blunt instrument, which does not apply open space to walk dogs, for example? The great to anybody who is taking exercise that allows an excuse for taking exercise in our society is walking increase in muscle mass. People can get heavier and dogs. In rural areas, will we ensure that all footpaths fitter. This kind of exercise does not apply to this are open? Will this be monitored? Will this be driven chart. forward? If the Department of Health is not doing it, Why is it important that we have this extra guidance? who will do it? The big beasts of the departments are One of the younger Members of this House—he is not involved here. Sport lives in the Department for Culture, in his place—who along with me is regularly required Media and Sport, but I would have it transferred to to compete with another place at various silly events, the Department of Health. There is disagreement in damaged his knee. It was a muscle tear—nothing my party about this, but I like to nail my colours to serious. The doctor told him not to exercise for six the mast. weeks. If you leave a muscle not working for six 395 Health[30 APRIL 2009] Health 396 weeks, it gets weaker, the tendons and ligaments around whom I had a doctor and a nurse, but then we inspected it are left in worse shape and, when you go back to only every five years. That was not good enough for using it, it is more likely to be damaged. That is a basic overseeing the whole system. level of ignorance that is shocking in a doctor. How Why is this a public health issue? Because every can we get people at the top who will ensure that when single prisoner, with the exception of about 30, is this occurs, if the doctor does not know what to do, going to come out. The physical and mental health of he will consult on up—or indeed sideways, for that person is therefore a matter of interest for the physiotherapists? public among whom they are going to be released. We need people in place. If we take into account They may have physical ailments that, unfortunately, that these doctors are necessary for the implementation flourish in the prison environment, such as varieties of of the strategy, what are we doing to make sure that TB and all the blood-transmitted viruses such as HIV they are there? We have provided the training posts— and hepatitis C. People age in prison; indeed, they age usually by shifting funds around, or so I am told—but much more quickly in prison than they do outside. we are not providing the consultancy posts. People Children in prison can stay with their mothers until have dropped out of the training because there is no they reach the age of 18 months. end place for them. If you are a registrar and you want to train, you might think, “I’ll further my career—oh, Then, there are the dreadful mental health statistics, there’s nowhere to go, so I’ll stop doing the training”. with at least 70 per cent of prisoners suffering an That is perfectly natural in that situation; I am sure identifiable personality disorder and about 500 requiring that if any of us was in a similar one, we would do the transfer into secure mental health accommodation same. What are we doing about this? because their condition is such that prison is wholly inappropriate as a place to hold them. Thankfully, I see that my 10 minutes are up. I suggest to the since 2004, prisons are part of the NHS and healthcare Minister that we need answers on this. Without them, provision is offered by primary, secondary and mental much of what the Government are doing here becomes healthcare trusts. This is not the place to comment on simply meaningless. the patchy nature of that provision, particularly in mental health, but it is important to have an overall direction and strategy for how healthcare is delivered. 4.11 pm There is a great danger that unless you have consistent Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank the noble oversight of what is done, particularly for those with Baroness, Lady Knight, for giving us the opportunity mental health problems, they will come out of prison with this debate to raise issues of public health that are worse than they went in. That is avoidable and inexcusable. sometimes rather difficult to get into that context. I I say as an aside that I have always thought that one shall concentrate entirely on the issue of prison healthcare reason why prisons should be regionalised—as the because although it is not currently in the public noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, recommended in health agenda, I submit that it should be. Prison his report following the Strangeways riots in 1990 and health is a public health issue. as picked up by the only White Paper on prisons, When I took over as Chief Inspector of Prisons in Custody, Care and Justice, published in 1991—is to 1995, I was surprised to find that, in the whole of the avoid prisoners having to leave their own region. That United Kingdom, only prisons were not part of the would give regional NHS authorities an opportunity NHS. Prisoners were in the NHS before they went to have some control over what is done with and for into prison and when they left prison they went back their own people, whose treatment will be their into the NHS, but while they were in prison they responsibility on release. Prisoners should have a proper disappeared from the NHS radar. Prison Service physical and mental health assessment when they enter healthcare used to claim equivalence with the NHS for prison and plans should be made to treat anything maintaining this, but how could that be when only discovered while they are there, taking the opportunity 10 per cent of prison medical directors were qualified of the sentence to make real progress. For people with to act as GPs in the NHS? mental health problems, that can include the development There was no properly structured nursing force, of a sustainable lifestyle with the clear understanding particularly for psychiatric nursing, not least because that what is established should be carried on elsewhere. there were no career opportunities for people to develop This is where I believe that public health clicks in. It careers inside such a small organisation as prison would be irresponsible to do less than I have outlined. healthcare. There were therefore far too many short-term It would be irresponsible to the public to whom the agency nurses, employed at great expense, which did prisoner is returning. not contribute to consistency or continuity of Today the Bradley review on diversion was published. improvement, if such a thing was possible. What is It concentrates largely on people in prison who have more, prison doctors did not have access to notes on mental health problems. It contains 82 recommendations, people before they came into prison, nor did doctors, and the Government have announced that they accept after someone had been released, have access to notes all of them in principle. However, there is obviously made in prison almost without going to the trouble of work to be done. I was fortunate enough to speak to getting an affidavit. the noble Lord this morning but I have not yet read There were particular problems with the lack of the report. I asked him particularly whether his report professional oversight from all the NHS arrangements contains signposts suggesting that public health authorities for such oversight that exist in hospitals and elsewhere. need to get on to what he is proposing and make it The only oversight was from my own inspectors, among their responsibility for carrying it out. He said that it 397 Health[LORDS] Health 398

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] those provided through the NHS. It is also important does. One of the things that he has recommended is a that faith communities consider how to adapt their national programming board with an advisory board own ceremonies should a pandemic arise, such as, in to serve it. That national advisory board will not the Christian community, the receiving of communion achieve anything unless there is a part of the NHS in bread alone without the use of a common cup which is responsible and accountable for seeing that during such a period. those recommendations are delivered. I remain haunted by that government assertion that Prison healthcare is comparatively new to the NHS, everyone matters equally. There are many in this country and many different trusts are involved in contract for whom it does not feel like that. This Sunday, I shall work in different prisons, but what matters is that one be worshipping at St Hilda’s, Cross Green, in Leeds, part of the NHS should be responsible for overseeing where there is a particular ministry to asylum seekers, the consistency of that treatment, wherever it is given. some of whom are terrified by fear of the authorities. Oversight of the provision from these various trusts In a situation such as that of a pandemic, there will be also is needed to ensure that every prisoner has the a particular responsibility on faith communities both assessment needed to ensure that this opportunity is to affirm that ethical affirmation of DCLoG and to not missed. It makes absolute sense for public health care for those who often feel themselves to be rejected authorities to be given that responsibility. I urge the by others. Minister to pursue this matter with her department after this debate. I also want to make a quite different contribution to this debate. If the threat of a pandemic is an 4.19 pm immediate concern—and it is, and the public health The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I agenda needs to deal with it—so there is the longer-term am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, threat to our public health of alcohol abuse. How are for her perceptive intuition in inspiring this debate at the Government developing their policies to combat this crucial moment when the press is dominated by such abuse? In the city of Leeds alone, the cost to the the possibility of a flu pandemic which would challenge local economy of alcohol-related harm is estimated at considerably our public health agenda. I want in that £275 million a year. The cost to the NHS is vast. The context to draw attention to the Department for cost to individuals, both temporary and long term, is Communities and Local Government paper issued encountered in damaged lives. I suggest that this is one this week on Faith Communities and Pandemic Flu.I of the most significant current threats to public health thank Monsignor John Devine and the Faith and that we have developed a culture of alcohol abuse Communities Consultative Council for their input, that needs determined combating. and I stress the crucial importance of faith communities I take noble Lords, as I have been, to the accident in any pandemic. and emergency department of St James’s Hospital in I am very grateful for the measured government Leeds. A chaplain has been called to support a family response to the current flu threat, both in calling for where the grandfather has just died; a precious moment vigilance and in combating irrational panic. It is crucial of farewell and commendation that we have all experienced that, should there be a pandemic, anyone infected in one way or another. It is Friday night, and this is the stays at home. It is equally crucial that those not casualty unit in a large city, so that farewell takes place infected continue both to work and to support those in the context of staff struggling in a battlefield, who are ill. Basic respiratory and hand-hygiene standards, responding to the needs—the genuine needs—of such as the use of tissues and careful hand washing, intoxicated strangers. It is not a farewell that I would are key to our care for one another. That fits in closely wish on anyone. with the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, about hygiene in hospital. It applies also to Those who work as professionals in public health hygiene within our communities and would do so very are in my experience convinced that action must be particularly were there to be a pandemic. taken to limit easy access to cheap and destructive I also welcome and affirm the ethical framework of alcohol. The Government seem to have turned their the DCLoG document: that in a pandemic all people back on Sir Liam Donaldson’s call for significant price matter equally. In that context, the prayer and worship rises in this area, but it is not clear to me what other of faith communities matters crucially. That would strategy will be able even to begin to deliver us from provide support for those who are ill and strength for the human and financial costs being incurred. Responsible those not infected to provide help for others. I particularly drinkers would be little affected by price changes. For commend, from that document and elsewhere, the those given to abuse, there needs to be a progressive development of flu-friend networks which can be based impact to encourage a speedier return to personal in churches, mosques or other faith communities or health and stability. We have found ways—we could elsewhere whereby there is organised provision to collect probably find better ways—of doing that for tobacco. antivirals for vulnerable people. That is something Perhaps amendments to the Health Bill on Report will that can be set up locally—it must be set up locally; it strengthen our response to that particular problem. cannot be set up in any other way—and would provide There needs to be a similar strategy on alcohol. a structure whereby help can be provided in the event So much of the human tragedy in our society has of a pandemic. alcohol abuse as an element within it, whether it is Imaginative ways of contacting people with prayer domestic violence; whether it is increasing numbers of and support need to be developed locally, including people going to prison and therefore becoming subject internet prayers and phone numbers advertised alongside to the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, 399 Health[30 APRIL 2009] Health 400 has raised; whether it is to do with broken relationships, As a precursor to my Question on 13 May about or with our ability to take that exercise that the noble the cases of Panton-Valentine Leukocidin—PVL— Lord, Lord Addington, so ably advocates. There needs positive staphylococcus aureus, I am concerned that to be local work involving primary care trusts and this public health matter which can come in from the faith communities. There also needs to be government community and affects young, fit people and children action to promote behaviour that serves the community who pick it up from playgrounds, sports halls and and to foster personal responsibility. The Government military camps, can be missed through a lack of knowledge are rightly determined to do that in the case of a by GPs and hospital doctors. The symptoms are flu-like. pandemic. I look forward to similar commitments on The body’s immune system packs up and white cells the much longer-term damage of alcohol abuse. stop fighting. If not treated, victims can die in a few days. The last case that I heard about was that of a student from Harrow School a few weeks ago, who 4.29 pm became very ill with PVL MSSA. This has been a serious problem in the USA. There needs to be very Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I thank the good surveillance and awareness, as there are so many noble Baroness, Lady Knight of Collingtree, for different strains of MRSA. Another concern is that of introducing this debate on public health, which could pigs infecting humans in countries such as Holland. not be more topical. I do not think that the debate was Does the Minister agree that there should be a close planned to take place in the very week when the world working relationship between veterinarians and is plunged into the vital need of public health across microbiologists? There should also be close co-operation the globe due to swine flu. It may be better referred to over the serious problem of variant CJD and blood as Mexican flu, named after the country of origin, as safety. were Spanish flu and Hong Kong flu. This is a complicated virus, containing pig, fowl and human viruses. The Public health is of huge importance in our prisons, fight to control a flu pandemic will involve many as my noble friend has said. With conditions such as professional bodies, and the public should be kept HIV and tuberculosis, prisoners need to be on courses informed with the correct information and guidance of medication. There is no guarantee that they will to take the necessary precautions. continue treatment or seek medical care once they are Having visited Mexico some years ago and having released into the community, especially if they are succumbed to Montezuma’s revenge, resulting in the homeless and have multiple diagnoses. Prisons have most violent diarrhœa and sickness, I wonder whether different systems that do not communicate with each Montezuma has done something to make this virus other, making it difficult to establish an offender’s worse in Mexico. When I flew over Mexico City, there medical history. Only a few prisons use online systems. were miles of shanty town on the outskirts of the city On a recent visit to Pentonville prison, which has a and a cloud of pollution hung all around. Many of the high incidence of tuberculosis, it was good to meet a so-called houses were tin shacks, and many people dedicated nurse specialising in TB, who works between were living in poor conditions. Poor housing often prisons. She told us that multidrug-resistant TB was a contributes to poor health. great concern. With the homelessness and chaotic The virus seems most complicated. I have a few lifestyle that many prisoners have on discharge, that is questions for the Minister, as we did not have the a serious public health risk. Drug and alcohol misuse planned Statement yesterday. Does the virus have a is also a huge problem. When asked how the prison window of about three weeks when a person may be contains an infection outbreak, they recommended infected, but the test does not show positive? Does the that screening within 24 hours of arrival is crucial to manufacture of the quantities of vaccine needed not safeguarding the prison against the spread of infection. require thousands and thousands of eggs? Do we have enough eggs? Does Tamiflu have a sell-by date? If so, For many years, I have felt that there should be a is our stockpile still in date? good, all-round health education in all of our schools. The fourth report of the 2005-06 Session of the Children should learn that healthy eating and exercise Science and Technology Committee, Pandemic Influenza, will give them the best chance in life. They should asked the Minister whether the Health Protection learn about the dangers of type 2 diabetes and how to Agency, responsible for frontline management and the avoid it, about the result on their health if they smoke, emergency strategy on the flu pandemic, will have and about sexually transmitted diseases and substance enough funds and capacity as some of the agencies misuse. There should be more testing in the community have been merged. Is it adequately equipped to manage for conditions such as venous thromboembolism, or if the pandemic spreads? Will there be enough testing VTE, which accounts for more than 25,000 deaths in capacity? Will more people be drafted in to help, and England alone, and for so many others which, if will funds be made available to cope? What are the detected in time, will save people from having long-term plans for distribution of antivirals? conditions as well as from dying early. Prevention of For some years, the World Health Organisation and illness is so important. our Chief Medical Officer have been telling us that there will be a flu pandemic. The world is now on full I shall end on a positive note. On Tuesday, I went to alert. The importance of public health and other an exhibition at the Design Centre, “Design Bugs organisations coming together and working for the Out”. The Design Council, the Department of Health good of society is absolutely vital. There must be good and the NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency brought communication with the public and honest, transparent designers together with clinical specialists, patients networking. and front-line staff to test an innovative approach to 401 Health[LORDS] Health 402

[BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON] would be false economy. I do not want to repeat at procurement. They should be congratulated on that length the details of the Budget. I am sure that noble excellent initiative. There was equipment there such as Lords will have absorbed all that for themselves by bedside cabinets, a commode with rounded edges and now. However, I should point out that for the next two disposable pan, a patient bedside system, a patient’s financial years Department of Health funding will chair and a porter’s chair—all with curved, smooth stay broadly the same. People in the NHS have breathed edges—an intelligent mattress with an inbuilt early a sigh of relief about that. However, we should encourage warning system, which allows soiled mattresses to be them to see those two years as a very short window of identified and replaced as soon as they become time within which they, as health professionals, should contaminated. There was also equipment for doctors work with the Government to reorient the NHS to be and nurses, such as blood pressure cuffs and a cannula a major bedrock of public health development. If they time tracker. All were easy to clean, to help overcome do not, in about four or five years’ time we will be left health-associated infections such as MRSA and C. with the remnants of a health service that may well difficile. This is to promote good clinical care. Equipment have been fit for purpose in times of affluence but is is likely to be cleaned properly if it is easy to clean. not so in times of recession. This exhibition will be taken around the country and I In February 2009 the Health Select Committee in hope that orders will be placed. another place produced a fascinating report on health I am pleased to learn that the National Institute for inequalities. It is a fair report and acknowledges that Clinical Excellence is increasing its public health the Government have attempted to tackle health promotions. If public health is neglected, it will be at inequalities, have bravely set themselves demanding our peril. public health targets and have targeted resources at areas of deprivation. However, one of the most striking and compelling points made by the committee is that 4.40 pm there is a lack of evidence with which to judge the Baroness Barker: My Lords, if persistence is deemed effectiveness of the programmes that have been funded to be an Olympic sport in 2012 I will be there when the and their cost-effectiveness. The report says that, all noble Baroness, Lady Knight of Collingtree, picks up too often, the Government rush in with insufficient her medal. I thank her for giving us the opportunity to thought and do not collect adequate data from the have this wide-ranging and absorbing debate. beginning. Frequently, objectives are unclear and policies As the daughter of a Methodist minister who was are changed or implemented with such short timescales also a chaplain, I found the right reverend Prelate’s that meaningful evidence cannot be gathered. speech most perceptive and very moving. The question If anything, the Health Select Committee understated asked by my noble friend Lord Addington on sport the case. The ability to evaluate public health interventions and health prompted me to think that, if you were to and the lack of an evidence base for doing so not only ask three different government Ministers what a boxing affects the NHS and other government departments match was, you would get three different answers. The but hampers the work of the voluntary sector. I point Department of Justice would say that it is a means of out to noble Lords that the great bulk of public health reducing youth offending; the DCMS would probably and preventive work is carried out not by the NHS, or describe it as a noble art; and the Department of even by the state, but by charities and the voluntary Health would point out its potential for causing sub-cranial sector. Their work is also seriously impeded by the neurological trauma and consequently the necessity lack of an evidence base. for it to have a risk management programme attached to it. Politicians of all parties are under no illusions A few weeks ago, a fast-food chain announced that whatsoever that, in future, public services will be under it would create 6,000 jobs. At the same time my increased pressure. There will be an imperative to colleagues on Leeds City Council explained that they make sure that funding of services goes to the most were going to make about 300 staff redundant. When efficient and effective. I particularly ask whether the they were challenged on the “PM” programme, they Government agree with the Health Select Committee explained that a number of their sources of funding that Professor Sir Michael Marmot’s forthcoming review and revenue from central government had been cut of health inequalities is an ideal opportunity to introduce but that they were also suffering other losses of income, new evaluation methods that are ethical and economical. including loss of revenue from their swimming pools Do the Government also accept that Sir Michael’s because people cannot afford to use them. That is a review should include work on inequalities in secondary deeply depressing symptom of a recession, but I want care and, therefore, should review the payment-by-results to stress the importance of the public health agenda framework? now and in the future. The Government have done a tremendous amount The Faculty of Public Health defines public health of work on such matters as coronary heart disease and as: cancer. Not to acknowledge that would be churlish. “The science and art of preventing disease, prolonging life and We need from that work the evaluation data that promoting health through organised efforts of society”. enables us to see how the NHS can become more To that one can add that the politics of it all is about productive in future. My noble friend was right: the providing the means to do so. At times of economic majority of work on public health is not done by the recession, it is easy to see public health as a soft target NHS at all; it is done by other government departments. and an easy place in which to make cuts. However, I The WHO Commission on Social Determinants of want to try to persuade the Minister that to do so Health recently stated: 403 Health[30 APRIL 2009] Health 404

“Communities, neighbourhoods and cities that ensure access That definition has been tweaked by the present Chief to basic goods, that are socially cohesive, that are designed to Medical Officer, who has brought in the more current promote good physical and psychological well-being, and that are subject headings of health inequalities, clinical governance protective of the natural environment are essential for health equity”. and the management of risk. The distinguishing feature of public health is surely that it relates to initiatives Social reformers since the 19th century have been that reach across populations and groups as opposed trying to persuade Governments of just that. to the curative treatment of individuals. One could My colleagues in another place, Vince Cable and range far and wide to topics such as housing and Nick Clegg, have stated repeatedly that a key part of education, even taxation, and still not stray off the our economic recovery will be investment in green subject of public health, but I should like to focus technology and in such matters as environmentally today on issues that fall directly within the Minister’s sustainable housing. If there is to be a silver lining—and purview and on one in particular about which we have I am not Pollyanna, by any means—it will be that heard this afternoon: health inequalities. Governments rise to the challenge of making radical changes to the planning system and infrastructure If we seek to identify improvements in public health development to bring about communities that have over the past 20 years, we can point to a number of better health outcomes and reduce health inequalities. successes. On what might be called the big ticket issues, life expectancy across the population is improving In the short time available, I will mention one and infant mortality is falling. The rate of improvement further matter. The Healthcare Commission, under is not as great as it is in some other western countries, the leadership of Anna Walker, ceased to be at the end but it is still an improvement. Among the major targets of March. Its final report was on mental health and in public health policy, we can look with some satisfaction older people. It is an excellent report, which I commend at the trends in smoking prevalence and the consumption to the House. I mention it because it is a public health of salt in the diet where, taking the bald averages, both matter to which very little attention is paid. As with are both going down. other services, there is a lack of data, but the Healthcare Commission found in its research that, for older people, However, there are other areas of public health access to mental health services—and particularly to where success has been more elusive. Sexual health is crisis and emergency mental health services—is wholly one, dental health is another and the one about which inadequate, just because those people are aged 65 and we hear quite a lot, obesity, is proving a very difficult over. In times of recession, it is understandable that nut to crack. The evidence on these three areas is that Governments put the bulk of their resources towards they are much more of a problem among lower socio- those members of the community who are most economic groups. That is the reason why part of the economically active, such as younger adults. However, Government’s public health strategy has been to target older people are the biggest users of public services. I specific areas of health inequality—that is to say, hope that the noble Baroness will encourage the disease areas that affect certain subsets of the community department to look at the report’s recommendations, most damagingly. which are not really for large-scale further public Health inequalities are a stark measure of a funding. They are for better data and systems, so that Government’s success in delivering good public health, existing services can be made better. so it is welcome that the Health Select Committee in In 2004, Derek Wanless pointed out in his report on another place has recently subjected this aspect of the the National Health Service that, for the health of the topic to close scrutiny. Its report makes fascinating nation to be drastically improved, public health and and sometimes depressing reading. Over the past 10 years, the awareness of individuals about what they could do health inequalities have in fact widened, not only to lead healthy lifestyles would be important. Five between the rich and the less well-off but also between years on from that and standing as we are on the brink the population as a whole and other sectors of the of a recession, it is even more important that his community who are seen as being harder to reach: message about the priority of public health should be ethnic minorities, those with mental health problems taken up by the Government. and the elderly. To call the Government’s record a failure because of the widening gap in inequalities would perhaps be overly harsh, because it is a tough 4.50 pm test, but unfortunately the charge of failure begins to Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend Lady Knight stick when we look at the committee’s findings elsewhere. is to be congratulated on her customary wise and The committee’s most damning criticism relates to incisive speech introducing this important topic. I am the Government’s whole approach to policy in this grateful to her for giving us the opportunity to debate area. I would describe it as a lack of intellectual it because, far-reaching as it is, public health is an area rigour. It is a story of eye-catching initiatives which of policy that tends to receive less than its fair share of are poorly designed and rushed into being without discussion in your Lordships’ House. proper baseline information or clear objectives. Evaluation When defining “public health” to myself, I tend to of these initiatives too often consists of simply examining go back to the words quoted by the noble Baroness, the processes that have taken place and asking people Lady Barker. Those words originated with the former what they thought of them. To compound the sin, Chief Medical Officer, Sir Donald Acheson, who, I there has been short-termism—changes of direction remind the House, spoke of public health as, and a failure to maintain policy long enough to know “the science and art of preventing disease, prolonging life and whether it has worked. The net result, in the words of promoting health through the organised efforts … of society”. one witness, has been that, 405 Health[LORDS] Health 406

[EARL HOWE] deep-rooted attitudes and behaviour. It would be helpful “we have wasted huge opportunities to learn”. to hear from the Minister how the latest TV campaign, Indeed, large amounts of money have been poured “Change4Life”, hopes to overcome that criticism. into initiatives such as health action zones, healthy The rise in obesity continues, as does widespread towns, healthy schools and the expert patient programme. alcohol abuse among teenagers. More than two-thirds What we get at the end of them is a series of inputs, of adults still do not know what exercise they should throughputs and customer satisfaction measures. None be doing, what amounts of alcohol are unsafe and of them has produced results that tell us what we need even what a portion or fruit and veg consists of. If we to know, which is what interventions actually work. are aiming to create, in the words of the Secretary of Professor Ken Judge of the University of Bath put it State, “a lifestyle revolution”, what can make us confident quite brutally when he said: of doing that? In the final analysis, if we cannot improve public health, we will not be able to afford the “We end up with rich descriptions of what people are trying to NHS. That is why this debate is vital and why, in one do. These ... are then used as evidence of good practice because we do not have anything else and we slide inexorably from setting form or another, we shall return to it over the months these things up essentially to the production of propaganda”. and years ahead. The committee was uncompromising in its conclusions. 5pm It said: Baroness Thornton: My Lords, it is with great pleasure “Such wanton large-scale experimentation is unethical, and needs to be superseded by a more rigorous culture of piloting, that I respond to this debate and to the opportunity evaluating and using the results to inform policy”. provided by the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, to highlight the Government’s public health agenda. I Of course, much of the public health agenda is delivered congratulate her and other noble Lords on an interesting locally through PCTs, but here again there is cause for debate. She has drawn attention to issues of which the concern. The committee found that strategic health NHS is aware and is acting on, from matrons to the authorities and PCTs are not providing satisfactory organisation of wards and infection control, which are leadership in public health. The number of senior of course of great importance. public health specialists is falling. We have seen funds I do not accept the failures in regulation alleged by for public health siphoned off into other areas during the noble Baroness, given that in the past there was times of budgetary pressure. My own view is that we virtually no accountability for doctors and other medical need to look again at the idea of ring-fencing a goodly professions at local level, which is why we have focused portion of the public health budget to prevent the during the past 10 years on giving our regulators a same thing from happening again. wide range of toughened enforcement powers and More than that, when tackling health inequalities, have enabled the new commission to take direct and there is a perception that many PCTs are simply independent action against service providers that fail unsure of how to spend their funding allocations to to meet essential levels of safety and quality which the best effect. If that is true, it again reflects poorly on people are entitled to expect. the quality of leadership, not least national leadership. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that we There is a drive by the Government to improve access need to deal with mixed-sex wards. The Government to GP services, which is welcome. Equally welcome is have never denied that. The Secretary of State announced the intention to rebalance the QOF towards public in January a six-month drive to eliminate mixed-sex health goals. But other things have suffered. I am wards in hospitals. Three cornerstones underpin the thinking particularly of early years intervention with programme: a £100 million privacy and dignity fund; mothers and young families, where the scope to combat improvement teams established to help those hospitals health inequalities is considerable; yet the number of with challenges in this area; and working to establish health visitors and midwives—the very professionals financial covers in the context of the contracting best placed to deliver help—has also been falling. framework between PCTs and hospital trusts. NHS dentistry has been one of the Government’s The Government’s approach to public health cannot stated priorities; yet, again, reality belies the rhetoric. be described simply by a list of initiatives. It is about Access to NHS dentists has gone down since the how we deploy our health resources and the leadership introduction of the new contract. None of this is that we provide in this area. Our leadership is a exactly a story of stunning success. response to our passionate belief that good health is a Central to much of the effort in this area are health shared priority from the bottom to the top of the promotion campaigns. We have seen a succession of nation. Our starting point was that in 1999, only such campaigns over the years, a lot of them related to 1.8 per cent of total health expenditure went on prevention healthy eating. On the plus side, there is evidence that and public health. We now spend more than 3.6 per some of the key messages are getting through. As a cent—double that spent 10 years ago. nation we are eating more fruit and veg than we used Not everyone sees that as a good thing. Earlier this to and taking more exercise. Our intake of alcohol is year, my right honourable friend Dawn Primarolo, the going down. But the key issue here is not the averages; Minister for Public Health, pointed out that there is a it is whether enough of the right people are permanently school of thought that there is no such thing as public changing their behaviour. The Minister will be aware health. According to that view, any intervention in that the King’s Fund has levelled some serious criticisms public health and any act to give individuals or groups on exactly this point. It and others have stressed that support, guidance or safeguards is somehow an attack one-off advertising campaigns cannot hope to change on their liberty. She rejected that argument, and so do 407 Health[30 APRIL 2009] Health 408

I. Choice and control can be an illusion when you are We are measuring the activity that contributes to this very poor and in ill health. For those living in such target of 2 million people through an extended version communities, it is practical, tailored, focused support of Sport England’s active people survey. that makes the difference. That is our aim. For example, The noble Lord kept asking me who is responsible the health of communities collaborative programme is for this. It is a cross-government activity. It can only be working in 28 sites among the most disadvantaged delivered across government. The Department of Health, communities to raise awareness of the signs and symptoms for whose activities I am partly responsible for, has its of cancer and cardiovascular disease and to encourage part to play, as do all the other departments mentioned people who may have those symptoms to seek help by the noble Lord. He also mentioned the sports and early. It is a community-based approach to public exercise consultants. We had an exchange about the health that can be tremendously successful. importance of the provision of sufficiently qualified We believe that we have come a long way towards medical experts for the Games and about establishing our aim to provide services that reflect changes in consultants and medical facilities as part of the legacy people’s lifestyle, habit, environment and society. We of the Games. believe that our campaigns are now much more The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, made an eloquent sophisticated than they were in their targeting and comment about health in prisons. Like him, I am their understanding of people’s motivation to change. looking forward to reading the report of my noble For example, the smoking campaigns funded by the friend Lord Bradley. I know that the Government will Department of Health have been widely acclaimed by look very carefully at his recommendations. The challenge marketing experts in both the public and private sectors. that we have—the noble Lord will be only too aware of However, as noble Lords have mentioned, those campaigns this—is that, since 2006, all prison health services have cannot work on their own. That is why Change4Life is been transferred to the NHS; we are mainstreaming rooted in research about people’s behaviour and how their services. Therefore, our target is that prisoners they change their lives. It tells people how they can receive the same standard of healthcare as we would make positive changes as well as warning of the dangers expect in the rest of the community. However, we of obesity. Clearly it is up to individuals what they eat, know that that is easier to say than deliver. Indeed, drink or smoke. It is not the Government’s intention there is a great deal more to do. to intervene unnecessarily or stand at their shoulder in the kitchen, as it were. Lord Addington: My Lords, are we going to hit the Our sexual health campaign has generated almost number of 72 consultants in sports and exercise medicine 1 million visits to the Condom Essential Wear website. within the NHS? More than half of 16 to 24-year-olds say that they are more likely to have a check up for a sexually transmitted Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Lord knows infection as a result of seeing the advertising. We have that part of the 2012 delivery is that there has to be a already heard from the public and the media of lives sufficient number of sport and exercise medicine saved following our stroke awareness publicity. Some consultants. If I recall correctly, that is two medical may remember that I described FAST in your Lordships’ experts per event during the Games. I will write to the House, with visual aids. One clinician in Kent has noble Lord again about this if he so wishes, but I am reported seeing around 200 patients as a result of the not going to go into it in detail now. We have every campaign’s message. We estimate that the new cervical intention of delivering both the legacy and the Games cancer vaccine will save the lives of up to 400 women a properly medically equipped. year. I thank the right reverend Prelate for being so on There are other campaigns aimed at informing, message about the Government’s work in these uncertain supporting and empowering individuals and families times of the threatened pandemic. I take on board his to make healthy choices. These include seasonal flu comments about the need to be aware of the challenges immunisation, pandemic flu preparedness—I will refer of the asylum-seeking communities and other to that again in a moment—stroke awareness, sexual communities at this time of uncertainty. I also thank health, HIV and having an NHS life check. All our him for his support for our forthcoming debate on major campaigns are evidence-based and subject to point of sale for tobacco. We take very seriously the evaluation. issues of alcohol raised by the right reverend Prelate. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, raised the issue There is good evidence that cheap alcohol is linked to of sporting and physical activity. Change4Life, launched people drinking more and subsequent harm to their in January 2009, focuses on pregnant women, parents health. It is important that any Government intervene of babies and toddlers and parents of pre-school and to reduce harm without, as the right reverend Prelate primary school children. In future years, we will see said, unduly impacting on the majority of responsible the development of programmes targeted at young drinkers. We are looking to develop the evidence base people and adults. For example, £140 million was on that issue. invested in our free swimming programme. The walking The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, raised the your way to health scheme, led by the Department of threatened influenza pandemic. All NHS organisations Health, Natural England and the British Heart have comprehensive plans which they are now bringing Foundation, delivers nearly 2,000 walks to more than into action at the appropriate level. Every resilient 30,000 people each week. We are determined that as forum in England has validated pandemic-specific part of our legacy for the Olympic Games, 2 million plans, which were outlined by my noble friend on adults should be more active in 2012. This will include Tuesday in the Statement and yesterday in answer to a active travel, dance, gardening, and active conservation. Parliamentary Question. I will not go into a great deal 409 Health[LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 410

[BARONESS THORNTON] are sure that they can be achieved. There are doubts in of detail. I am quite happy to give the noble Baroness many places about that matter. The House was most and all noble Lords the latest briefing on this matter. interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord But I can refer her to the website, which is very Ramsbotham. From his great experience he made a informative and is being kept up to date. I assure her strong case for some fundamental changes in the way that we will return to this issue and will keep the that sick prisoners are treated and under whose ambit House fully informed about any developments during they should come. I hope that his remarks will be this uncertain time. taken on board, because they were thoughtful. Springing The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, made a very as they did from experience, they were worthy of great good point about how we will use the next two years, concentration and thought. and about the importance of investment in the public The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and health agenda. We are considering the Marmot review Leeds drew attention to something that no one has and taking it very seriously. I agree with her that the mentioned until now: the work and the willingness of Healthcare Commission’s final report was very important. faith groups. That is an important point that we often I undertake to follow this through and to make sure miss. I hope that the Minister will bear in mind the that it is given proper consideration. amount of good will and good intentions to help The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised a variety of difficult areas in the health service. The noble Baroness, issues about healthcare, public health targets and the Lady Masham, talked not only about the pandemic various programmes that we are undertaking. The but about the education that was necessary. I thought health and equalities targets were deliberately set to be that that was a different and important point in the ambitious and some progress has been made, although area of healthcare. there is a great deal more to be done. We believe that I listened with great interest, as I always do, to the there is a lot of headroom within the system for noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who made some wise improvement. Our focus now is to provide tailored, suggestions about the importance of directing finance. intensive support to deal with issues such as high I hope that those comments will be listened to. infant mortality, new GP practices in the most deprived My noble friend Lord Howe talked about health areas, additional support for the early presentation of inequalities. That is a subject on which he or I could cancer and CVD, the take-up of vascular checks in speak for a very long time. It concerns us, and I hope disadvantaged areas and programmes to support that the Government have taken on board the worrying communities, such as the improvement development statistics that he gave us. agencies, healthy communities and communities for The Minister talked about mixed wards. I hope that health. we shall not be put off in the way that we have been in One of the noble Earl’s colleagues in another place the past by saying that mixed wards have changed. At criticised Change4Life as a campaign that was an one point the Minister told me that 92 per cent or 93 attack on the video games industry. Would the per cent of all patients were not in mixed wards. I Conservatives spend more or less than Labour on found out that the truth was that they were not in public health information campaigns and do they mixed wards because the name of the ward had been support the Change4Life campaign, or does the noble changed to an assessment ward. So one could say that Earl agree with his honourable friend that this is just a they were not in mixed wards, but the wards were campaign against video games and that they are bad mixed: men and women were there together. They for you? were not intensive care wards. Finally, some time ago my right honourable friend I thank most warmly everyone who has taken part Alan Johnson, the Secretary of State for Health, said in the debate, and I beg leave to withdraw the Motion that we are committed to examining what the future of for Papers. public health policy should look like. We have a good Motion withdrawn. record of success. We continually try to improve. Throughout my response I have highlighted some Cohabitation Bill [HL] obvious examples of how we are making a difference Committee (1st Day) to people’s health and well-being. We are investing in health; we are concerned about what health means 5.18 pm and what public health is all about. I am grateful that Clause 1 agreed to. we are able to continue this shared debate and look forward to hearing from colleagues in the future about Clause 2 [“Cohabitant”]: this matter. Amendment 1 5.14 pm Moved by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, this has 1: Clause 2, page 2, line 3, leave out “two” and insert “five” been an interesting debate. Although we have not had Lord Lester of Herne Hill: In moving Amendment 1 many speakers—perhaps that is not surprising on the I shall speak also to Amendment 4, with which it is last day before a bank holiday weekend—all the points grouped. I am happy to report that there is common made have been varied and very interesting. agreement on this across the Committee: between us The point of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, the noble Lord, aspirations must be achieved, was a good one. He Lord Henley, and the noble and learned Baroness, asked whether they will be achieved and whether we Lady Butler-Sloss. 411 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 412

The purpose of Amendment 1 is to increase the the Committee who support the amendment to speak. minimum period of cohabitation required before We can then deal with the later amendments as speedily cohabitants without children will be able to make a as possible. claim for a financial settlement order. A discretion to I think I have explained that the Law Commission waive the qualifying period is dealt with by Amendment 4. has suggested that a period of two to five years would As noble Lords know, the Bill is designed to protect be appropriate. A five-year period would protect those cohabitants who demonstrate a certain level of in longer-term relationships, and it is arguable that commitment and likely interdependency. Where existing there is more likely to be a financial imbalance in such law recognises the rights and responsibilities of those a relationship. There are arguments in favour of the living together, a minimum period of time is usually two-year period because there can still be significant required before cohabitation is established. Schemes unfairness and hardship where people have lived together in other countries take this approach and it reflects the for less than five years. We would support this amendment, proposals made by the Law Commission. It also avoids but alongside Amendment 4 which provides a discretion the use of less definitive eligibility criteria which may to waive the five-year qualifying period in cases of cause uncertainty and complexity, and does not open exceptional hardship. the floodgates to people in very short-term relationships. It is important to be clear that the Bill also protects Lord Henley: I wonder whether I may intervene in cohabitants with children. Under the Bill, a child’s the fascinating opening speech of the noble Lord, primary carer can apply for financial support whether Lord Lester. My understanding is that Amendment 1, or not they have lived with the child’s other parent for grouped with Amendment 4 in the name of the noble five years. That is vital for the following reasons. First, Lord and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler- the number of people cohabiting is continuing to Sloss, is tabled in the name of the noble Baroness, increase, as is the number of children being born to Lady Deech, then myself, and then the noble Lord. I cohabiting couples. Cohabiting is now the fastest-growing do not know whether the noble Lord has spoken to family type, and by the second quarter of 2008 the the Lord Chairman, but for some inexplicable reason proportion of dependent children living with cohabiting the noble Lord has been asked to move it. Would it not couples had increased to 13 per cent from 8 per cent in have been right for the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, the same period during 1997. to move it, since her name appears first on the Marshalled Secondly, the existence of children makes it more List, followed by mine, then his, and lastly that of the likely that one partner will suffer the economic noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss? disadvantage if he or she is the primary carer of the children. The current law affecting cohabiting couples Lord Lester of Herne Hill: It is entirely in the hands takes no account of their relationship and does not of the Committee. However, having begun to explain aim to achieve a fair outcome between former partners. the main purposes of the amendment, and as the The vast majority of unmarried primary carer parents controller of the Bill, I would have thought that this cannot secure provision for childcare costs from the was always what we wished to do. I would have thought child’s other parent to enable them to work. Thirdly, that it would be more efficient and less wasteful of children’s financial wellbeing is dependent on that of time if I completed my speech. If the noble Lord feels their parents. The risk of poverty is exacerbated for hurt by that, the last thing that I would want to do is children of separated cohabitants because of the current to cause such hurt, and I shall sit down. However, in lack of financial protection for dependent partners. terms of understanding our purpose and for the debate, So, that is why we originally put in the two years. it would be more courteous to the Committee if I We seek to increase it to five years because we are very spoke. If the noble Lord, Lord Henley, disagrees, I anxious that this Bill should be as cost-effective as shall sit down. Does he disagree? possible and there should not be any unnecessary public expenditure incurred. We well understand the Lord Henley: No. I just find it extraordinary that Government’s dilemma because of the current economic the noble Lord did not bother to speak beforehand to recession. That is why, subject to the discretion in the either myself or the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. I other amendment with which this is grouped, we are can only speak for myself, but I am sure that we will strongly in favour of adopting a more conservative leave the noble Lord to explain this amendment and in approach of extending the period from two years to due course we will speak to it. We shall also speak to five years with the discretion. I beg to move. his Amendment 4 which is grouped with it, and about which we have some considerable concern. No doubt the Government will respond in due course. We will Baroness Deech: I say what I do about this amendment then have to work through all the other amendments with certain principles behind me which also apply to on this Thursday evening and see how we get on with all the amendments in the name of myself and the the Bill. I shall leave the noble Lord to speak, but it noble Lord, Lord Henley. I have tabled this amendment would have been polite of him, to say the least, if he and many others in order to reduce litigation. This is had spoken beforehand either to myself or the noble for the sake of our daughters, and sometimes our Baroness, Lady Deech. sons, and for the sake of our grandchildren and their stability. This is against the background of the bitterness Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I certainly did not intend always engendered in family proceedings between two to be rude and I apologise if I seem to have been people who once had a good relationship. It is against impolite. I shall therefore proceed as quickly as possible a background of an industry of mediators who may so that there is ample opportunity for others across not have had as much success as was promised 10 years 413 Cohabitation Bill [HL][LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 414

[BARONESS DEECH] in this House that there is no help for such a woman. ago, and against a background highlighted again only Only the other day, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said in today in newspapers that fathers simply will not pay response to an Oral Question that this nation does not for their children. We know about the organisations approve of polygamous marriages. I would find it that fathers support and the inexplicable refusal of hard to believe that the House would pass a Bill that men to take care of the families that they have left would have the effect only of supporting this narrow behind and the inability of the state to get that money range of women who may have believed themselves to out of them. We have to be realistic. be married but in fact were married polygamously and I speak to this amendment also against the background left destitute. of the change, only this week, of family proceedings being heard in open court. The details that come up It is right that the number of years goes up to five. later on in the Bill, those in Clause 9—indeed, the In fact, had I thought about it longer, I might have whole situation—will be heard in open court. The said 10. Only 5 per cent of cohabitation lasts more judges may throw out the journalists, but every couple than 10 years. Too often, to open the floodgates at two caught up in this situation will have to say to themselves years, or even five, would have the bad effects that I that the details of their commitment, the details of have mentioned, quite apart from the ill effects of their relationship or non-relationship, may be all over cohabitation law in general. the press. They will have to recite all of that in front of a courtroom full of journalists. I also say this against There are two groups of cohabitants, research shows the background of Article 8 of the European Convention us. There are young couples, often just beginning their on Human Rights, on the right to respect for private working lives and not committed. Over half the life, and the fact that we all have a human right to cohabitants in recent years until 2007 were under 35. follow a path of relationships that suits us. This is They are capable of sorting out their own affairs, they sometimes outside the law. There is no disapproval of are unsure about commitment and we should not that. If we wish to stay outside the law and to have a penalise them for trying out a relationship. The other private life, we have that human right. half are older and perhaps underprivileged. They will be hallmarked by children, early breakdown and lack Professor Stephen Cretney, former Law Commissioner of resources, and there is no point in passing a law to with responsibility for family law some years ago, effect the transfer of resources where there are none brought his mind to bear on this situation, in particular and where people will end up living on social security. the length of time as set out in this amendment. He said that his approach was strongly influenced by the This is not the Law Commission Bill. I remind your belief that litigation in the context of intimate relationships Lordships that the Law Commission report did not, as is very frequently if not always destructive. Of course in this clause, suggest automatic eligibility just because it is right to provide a remedy for injustice, but care two people lived together; there needed to be evidence must be taken that the cure is not provided at too great of qualifying contributions, and long cohabitation, a cost. I do not believe that it is the function of the however long, was insufficient. The Law Commission legal system to provide a remedy for every situation in wanted a situation quite different from marriage. In which someone could plausibly argue that he or she fact, the problem with this clause is that if it is amended, has suffered loss. Certainly, the legal system should the period will not even be five years because periods not provide an opportunity for what can easily become of separation will be allowed to count. If a couple live a form of harassment. That is the problem with both together for a year, separate for a year and come back the amendments in this group. The question is not so together, that will still count. Indeed, in the Bill as it much whether in the end a claim would succeed but stands, almost any short period of cohabitation will be whether it could plausibly be put forward, and the cost enough to send the deserted cohabitant to a lawyer or is financial and emotional. Citizens Advice to start a period of argument and 5.30 pm hassle that can ill be afforded in this era of economic Surrounded as I am by noble and learned Lords, I downturn. We must take account of how this will still feel that I should point out that the cases that affect potential litigants as they separate. Many of the appear in court are only the tip of the iceberg. The qualifications are impossible, such as the nature of power of the Bill, were it to be passed, would lie in the commitment, but we will come on to that. This is an possibility of one of two people who had spent a short attempt to get some sort of cohabitation law on to the time together being able to say to the other, “Unless books in a way that will set back the cause of working you pay me x, I am going to court”. Those are the women by many decades. negotiations and the blackmail that the judges will not A period of two years would have promoted a see, in the end. No doubt they will make sensible walkout at one year and 11 months. I fear that a decisions in court, but they will not see what is going period of five years will stimulate men into walking on beneath the surface and how this could be used as a out after four years. If, heaven forfend, the next weapon and a threat. amendment were to be passed, it would mean a complete It will emerge in discussion about later amendments collapse in stability because a man might well know, that there is already an amplitude of law to meet the given the publicity that would no doubt attend this, needs of a former cohabitant who falls on hard times. that any short period of living with a woman may well Schedule 1 to the Children Act exists and is underused. lead to a claim for money. What we all want is stability The only gap I have been able to find is the example of for our children and grandchildren. Giving these rights a polygamous wife who never really got married in this promotes instability, as much research shows. In other country and who has no children. It has been argued words, it will be detrimental to children. 415 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 416

The median duration of cohabitations now is just but stability is what I am seeking to promote by having under two years. Less than one-fifth survive five years. a longer time, as in the first amendment. Stabilility is Many go on to get married. These figures were given what children need. by Ermisch and Francesconi in 2000 and in the Cabinet Amendment 4 is in the same group, but it is Office’s own paper by the Strategy Unit in December fundamentally different. It undermines the period of 2008 called, Families in Britain. The Office for National five years. It virtually sweeps that aside and says that Statistics says that a first cohabitation lasts for 39 months. for any two people who claim to have lived together That is the mean length. In other words, anything less for only a short period—note that there is no definition than five years would be wrong and too short in my of living together, as the Bill does not even refer to opinion. living together in one household—one of them could In the end, it is not a good idea to encourage go to court and say, “Well, this is an exceptional case cohabitation, let alone when it is followed by break-up. and I want this right”. It would extend the possibilities A great deal has been written about high rates of of harassment and blackmail as pointed out by Professor abuse by men living with women who have children Cretney. Indeed, any cohabitants excluded under any who are not his. The Law Commission said that it did definition will complain. Amendment 4 might provide not want to entertain trivial or farfetched claims. I fear something for polygamous wives; though very many very much that the amendments in the names of the of them will be taken care of by the provisions that noble Lord, Lord Lester, and the noble and learned already exist to give financial provision for “wives” of Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, which cover anyone who void marriages. It is not the policy of this country to had lived together for the shortest possible period, will provide for such situations and there will be extra, certainly open the door to farfetched claims. expensive litigation over whether or not this new clause, were Amendment 4 to be passed, should apply. To conclude on this point, most commentators on Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: I am extremely this have pointed to a 10-year period as the right one. sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. She is speaking The public, when surveyed, think there is such a thing to the amendments—hers is the leading name of the as common-law marriage. However, when questioned group who have tabled them—but she seems to be in more detail, it is only when you get to a 10-year ranging over the whole purpose of the Bill and a lot of period that the public think that there should be other things that are not directly connected with her rights. When the period of cohabitation in the scenario amendments. We had an interesting Second Reading put to the public is reduced to two years, only 38 per debate for which I was present throughout, and many cent of respondents think that a cohabitant should people made extremely interesting speeches, including have a right to financial provision on separation. I the noble Baroness. Should we not perhaps get back to support this amendment, but would extend the period the amendment? to five years. However, I put it to the Committee that Amendment 4 is extremely dangerous and expensive in time, in stress, in legal aid and in private funds. Lord Henley: Before the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, responds, perhaps I may remind the noble Baroness, Lord Henley: I too have my name down to the Lady Thomas, that quite often the discussion ranges a amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady little wide on the first amendment to a Bill. I am not Deech, and I support the move to extend the period sure that it has ranged wider than Amendments 1 and from two years to five. I support it because it makes a 4. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, has been here bad Bill a slightly less bad Bill, but I certainly do not for some time; it is not unusual for that to happen on support Amendment 4, to which we will come later, the first amendment to a Bill as we clear the air before which seems to undermine the very purpose behind getting on to the issues. I am sure that every word that Amendment 1. I also have to say that I am now in a the noble Baroness has said on Amendments 1 and 4 state of slightly greater confusion on the whole matter has been on the subject. No doubt every word she still of that period of two years or five years. I always has to say will be on the subject, and no doubt others thought it would cause problems and therefore create will want to speak. work for the lawyers—which the noble Lord, Lord Lester, always denied—because there is always the Baroness Deech: I thank the noble Baroness for her problem of defining when that period of two years helpful intervention. I wish to explain that by saying started. Did it start with this one-night stand, as it some of these things now we will save time on later were, or that one-night stand, or whatever? Does it amendments. In essence I want to say that five years is start when the toothbrush moves into what becomes quite short enough and that Amendment 4 would the joint home? We all know what these things are like. simply open the door to litigation as soon as two I am now told that it is not just a continuous period people had lived together. We must realise that of two years or five years; it can be a whole series of a cohabitation tends to be a very short event, followed week here, a week there, a week whenever; so we have by marriage or separation. There are likely to be even greater evidential problems of defining how and children with older couples who are already taken care when that two or five-year period lasts. No doubt the of under Schedule 1 to the Children Act 1989. noble Lord, Lord Lester, who seems to have grabbed The children’s plight was well described by the late this group of amendments, will, when he comes to family court judge, Mrs Justice Bracewell, in a lecture respond, let us know something about those to Gresham College. She said that cohabitation with evidential problems of defining the two years and the different fathers of children does not provide stability, five years. 417 Cohabitation Bill [HL][LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 418

[LORD HENLEY] Lord Henley: Shall we leave it to the noble Lord, I move on to Amendment 4. I shall try to be brief, Lord Lester, to say whatever he wants to? It might be bearing in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, had to say. As I said, I believe this undermines what wishes to speak. the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and I are trying to do in Amendment 1, and therefore, I will oppose the Baroness Butler-Sloss: I have a feeling that amendment. I appreciate that the two amendments are Amendment 4 is in my name. I should like to respond grouped and they appear together in the groupings, on Amendment 1 and then move Amendment 4, if but I will just remind the noble Lord, Lord Lester, of that is thought to be appropriate. the mantra that is attached to the list of groupings produced every day by those who serve us in this Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: The noble and House. It says: learned Baroness needs only to speak to Amendment 4, “Although every effort is made to secure agreement to these as only one Motion can be before the Committee at groupings, they remain informal and not binding. It is therefore any one time. Because the amendment is grouped with open to any Peer to speak to an amendment in its place on the Amendment 1, it would be totally appropriate for the Marshalled List”. noble and learned Baroness to speak to it. Therefore, I will—along, I presume, with the noble Lord, Lord Lester—support Amendment 1, because I Lord Henley: I may have slightly confused the think it will improve the Bill. However, when it comes Committee. I was trying to make it clear that we are to Amendment 4, I certainly will not support that talking to Amendment 1, but I will not feel that I am amendment and I do not feel that I am bound by the bound by the convention on groupings, whereby if the groupings to accept it. first amendment in a group is accepted, one then accepts that the others come with it. I am making it 5.45 pm quite clear—I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Before the noble Viscount Deech, will agree with me on this—that if the Committee sits down, may I ask for his help? He interrupted my agrees to Amendment 1, she and I certainly do not feel opening speech, and I apologise if there was any that we are bound to accept Amendment 4, and we impoliteness. Amendment 4 is grouped with Amendment will oppose it in its due place. 1, and I have not yet spoken to it. Would it be for the convenience of the Committee if I completed that Baroness Butler-Sloss: It appears to me as though it now, so that we have it all in one piece, or would it be would be appropriate for me to speak on Amendment preferable for me to deal with it by way of reply, which 1 and allow Amendment 1 to be completed. Then I would have the inconvenience that others cannot then will move Amendment 4, if that is right. reply to what I say? It seems to me to be better if I briefly explain Amendment 4 at this stage. I should be Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: Although it is not very grateful for guidance from the noble Viscount, for me to tell anyone what to do, I think it may help if Lord Henley, as to what he would like. we degroup these two amendments, because the Committee is getting into a difficulty. Therefore, if we Lord Henley: I am very grateful for the repeated deal with Amendment 1, after it has been decided on, promotion of my status in the peerage, but I assure the the noble and learned Baroness can decide whether to noble Lord, Lord Lester, that I am a mere Baron like move Amendment 4. him, and I have not risen to the dizzy heights of a Viscount. Before the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, Baroness Butler-Sloss: In that case, I will speak on intervenes, it is open to the noble Lord to speak on it Amendment 1, which I strongly support. I notice that, now, if he wishes, or later. If he speaks to it now, it is although the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said that it still open to other noble Lords to address him on that would be preferable if it was 10 years, no one has put matter, because we are in Committee on the Bill, that proposal forward. We are dealing with five years where there are no binding rules on what happens. and, so far, as the Committee will see, there is unanimity Before the noble Lord gets up, I think that the noble about five years. That is clearly right, because it Baroness, Lady Farrington, wishes to intervene. demonstrates a couple’s commitment to a genuinely serious relationship. Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I accept all the Two to five years was supported by the Law points about there being no binding rules, but it seems Commission. There are people who need help, even to me that the normal courtesy of the House is that though they choose not to marry or are unable to. someone moves an amendment before others speak to From my perspective, the Bill is intended to meet a it. I am in the hands of the Committee. narrow but crucial problem. Since the noble Baroness, Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I did move the first Lady Deech, has already spoken rather more broadly, amendment. Amendment 4 is grouped with I will speak on a matter principally relating to those Amendment 1. who would not need five years. Children are obviously born to those who cohabit Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: What I was trying as well as to those who marry and they generally suffer to explain to the noble Lord is that it may be a when parents part. There is a group of women—and, courtesy for the person in whose name an amendment occasionally, men—who are left, usually by the man, stands if they have the opportunity to explain why with children and no maintenance or other support. they have put their name to the amendment. Then These women find that they have no right to the house, other noble Lords can speak to it. because it is in the man’s name. There is a major 419 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 420 problem for the state as well as for the children and limited period, because she should be expected to get their carer, because the state picks up the bill where the back to work as soon as possible. Consequently, I do man should. He should pick up the bill not only for not see that the points made by the noble Baroness the children, which certainly comes under the Children should trouble the Committee, while I am particularly Act 1989 and subsequent legislation, but also for the happy that we are, so far, all in agreement on five years mother—or, occasionally, father—of the children who instead of two—an entirely sensible amendment. is left to look after them; he should pick up the bill not only for maintenance but, at least, for a roof over their heads while the children are young. The Lord Bishop of Southwark: The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, who sadly cannot be The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has made the present this evening, spoke at Second Reading of point that Schedule 1 to the Children Act 1989 appears being a critical friend of this Bill. The result is that to provide for the carer of children as well as the these Benches can support some of the amendments, children. However, that must be read subject to Section but not others. I apologise that I shall shortly have to 8 of the Child Support Act 1991, which does not leave the Committee to get back to my day job, but the permit a court to deal with maintenance for the benefit fact that these Benches will then be empty does not of children where the respondent to the application reflect a lack of interest on our part. We hope to play a earns less than £104,000. That is not the group of full part at a later stage. families with which the Bill is concerned. There has been the occasional case where money has been paid. Before I go, I am pleased to support Amendment 1. A Sudanese woman wanted to see her child in the The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred to Families Sudan and got her air fare. However, actual maintenance in Britain: An Evidence Paper, prepared for the Cabinet for the woman for the benefit of the children where the Office in December 2008. We were told in that work man has only modest means is not met by Schedule 1 that about three in five first cohabitations turn into to the 1989 Act. I respectfully disagree with the marriage and that less than a fifth of cohabiting distinguished and learned academic the noble Baroness, relationships survive five years or more. It would, Lady Deech, but my experience as a former judge and, therefore, seem that five years is about right as a much more important, that of family barristers and qualifying period for protection. solicitors is that this schedule is scarcely used and has scarcely been of any effect. The Bill would cover that Lord Brett: Before I come to the amendment, perhaps problem. It would take the children off the state, I should declare an interest as a cohabitee. That is not which is one of the most important things. entirely of my choosing, as I have asked the lady in my The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, spoke of the life on several occasions to change the situation. To importance of there not being litigation and said that date, my blandishments have not been successful, but the Bill would promote it. A later group of amendments mutual friends have said that that shows good judgment to the Bill deals with alternative dispute resolution. on both our parts. However, as we put things on the The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, as the record in this House, the publication of that declaration promoter of the Bill, supported by me and those in Hansard may—who knows?—help to change the behind us—the Resolution Foundation and the situation. Family Law Bar Association—think that ADR is At Second Reading, my noble and learned friend extremely important. The draft rules for family proceedings Lady Scotland made it clear that the Government do have family dispute resolution. You would not be able not support this Bill, believing it to be unnecessary to take advantage of that unless we had ADR in and to take the wrong approach to addressing the the Bill. mistaken perception that cohabitation comes with a The suggestion that being in open court will cause a quasi-marital legal status. A better approach would be flood of the public is, if I may say so, pitching it a bit to seek to correct the mistaken perception, rather than high. The public are not entitled to be in the court, to change the law to match the mistake. We also only the press. I cannot believe that the press will believe that the approach adopted by the Bill would attend every county court case, which is where those generate large-scale litigation, with a vastly increased cases will be heard before circuit or district judges. burden on the parties, the Legal Aid Fund and judicial There will be no publicity, because the rules put forward resources. by the president of the Family Division in his recent Amendment 1 would, it is true, go some way towards practice direction say that the press can say nothing reducing the scope and impact of the Bill for those that is not approved by the judge; one of the most affected by its provisions, but our concerns remain. As important points that you cannot have will be the the Committee has heard, it is also true that, according names of the family. If the Bill goes through, it will get to the 2001 census, the number of unmarried couples the benefit of that practice direction and, whatever living together is over 2 million—and I would suggest, blackmail there might be behind the scenes, it will not as has also been said, that cohabiting couples are more be on publicity. I must ask the noble Baroness: what likely to separate than married couples. Yetour concerns sort of blackmail goes on by the men? Women suffer remain. from blackmail as much as men. I do not see these as Given both the time constraints and the lateness of the floodgates. the hour, it might help the continuation of the debate Another point in Clause 8, to which we will come if, rather than intervening on every single amendment and which is not in dispute, shows that the woman will to offer a government view, I were simply to invite only get enough money for her “reasonable needs”, those Members who wish such a view to be expressed not a footballer’s girlfriend’s bonanza. It will be for a to seek it. I would thereby intervene not on every 421 Cohabitation Bill [HL][LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 422 point, but only where the parties believe that the This House has tried before, during the passage of Government’s view might add to the elucidation of the Civil Partnership Bill in 2004, to include people this matter. who are within the prohibited degrees in some of the tax benefits that are given to others. The proposal was 6pm passed but fell later on the ground that that Act was not the place to do it. This Bill therefore seems to be Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I think therefore that the place to do it. We all have a great concern for the procedurally the right thing for me to do now is to burdens shouldered by carers, who are often close move Amendment 1. I beg to move. family members within the prohibited degrees. They could not marry or enter into a civil partnership, will Amendment 1 agreed. not be deemed to be cohabitants and will get none of the benefits, such as they are, in the Bill. Amendment 2 By debating cohabitation, this House shows that it Moved by Baroness Deech supports unions and commitment and that it thinks that support should be given to cohabitants who have 2: Clause 2, page 2, line 7, leave out paragraph (b) fallen out. Surely it must be the same for—let us imagine—two sisters who have expressed fidelity to Baroness Butler-Sloss: If I might respectfully say so, each other, supported each other and become dependent I think it should be Amendment 4. on each other. Article 14 says precisely that there should be no distinction based on birth or other Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: The noble and status. I have mentioned it before. In the case of two learned Baroness will have to speak to Amendment 4 family members, the length of commitment goes on in its place when we get there. until death. It has never ended; there is no question about it. One needs to avoid upsetting them and Baroness Deech: This amendment seeks to highlight making them feel bitter and resentful because benefits the fact that such advantages as might be conferred by are given to cohabitants. this Bill will be confined to those who are not family I simply cannot understand why the possibility—not members and not related within the prohibited degrees. even the existence—of a sexual union is of such I find this inexplicable. The purpose of my set of importance. It is very odd indeed that only a sexual amendments is to extend whatever law we end up with union should attract the benefits of the Bill. The to those who are in family relationships. There is no Government took down the barriers between marriage definition of cohabitants contained here. Sexual and other forms of association by giving advantages relationship is presumably not necessary, or fidelity or to civil partners of the same sex. Now that that barrier any particular relationship save an assertion that two has been taken down, there is no logical case for not people are cohabitants. It seems to me wrong to omit including in the Bill two family members, such as two from any benefits that might flow from this the elderly sisters or a father and daughter. Of course, what they daughter who has looked after a father for many get will be at the discretion of the court. It has nothing decades, or two sisters who have cared for each other to do with anything unpleasant, which is what prohibited and shared a home. Indeed, to omit those who are degrees are normally associated with, but it is within the prohibited degrees piles discrimination on discriminatory to deny relief to two people whose discrimination. Our human rights say that there should companionship has lasted for decades. be no distinction drawn in law in the rights offered thereby depending on marital status. To deny any of To illustrate the discrimination that arises from the the benefits of this Bill to, say, a brother and sister Bill, imagine three sisters. One is very pretty and lives living together seems to me to discriminate against with a footballer for a while. One marries a vicar and them, and I cannot see why this should be. The point their union lasts for many years. She works extremely about prohibited degrees is to prevent people from hard, but they have no money. The third sister never forming a sexual relationship that is unhealthy and marries and looks after her elderly father for decades. bad for children genetically, but it has nothing to do Under the existing law and the Bill, we will end up with the financial support that one person may demand with a situation where the vicar’s wife, on divorce, will from another, or, much more importantly, what the probably get nothing because there is nothing to go situation might be on death. around. The lady who lives with a footballer for a while will get a great deal. I do not believe that I have spoken before in this House, as have others, reasonable needs are treated meanly by the family about the two sisters, the Misses Burden, who are in courts. There is the recent, extreme, example of Sir their 80s and have lived together and shared a house Paul McCartney’s wife, whose reasonable needs were throughout their entire lives. They have argued repeatedly, estimated at £28 million. The courts have full discretion. including in front of the European Court of Human We do not know at all how that will come out. The Rights, that they should have the benefits that married ones who get the benefits are the ones who find rich couples and civil partners have, particularly on death, men. That is what is so upsetting and why family and that they should be allowed to postpone inheritance members should be included. tax when one of them dies so that the survivor does not have to find a sum—£60,000 in this case—which would probably mean that the house would have to be Baroness Butler-Sloss: I wonder if I would be forgiven sold and the remaining sister would become a burden for saying that the current law in relation to footballers’ on the state. There is agreement around this House wives comes under the Matrimonial Causes Act. The that this should not be the case. House of Lords has made it clear that the phrase 423 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 424

“reasonable needs” is no longer appropriate between ideas that we put forward was that it might be possible spouses. The words “reasonable needs”, which used to to do something for siblings and other carers in that be the law between husbands and wives, is no longer capacity. In the end, the reason why we decided to the law between them. That is why the phrase is in the limit the scope of the Bill as we have to cohabiting Bill. It takes us back to a situation where a moderate couples in a sexual relationship was because we realised sum is paid, not a footballer’s wife large sum. They that if we tried to widen the Bill to cover siblings and come under House of Lords decisions, which are a carers of all kinds, it would be inconceivable that any completely different state of law. Government, including a future Conservative Government, if there were one, would ever accept Baroness Deech: I am referring to footballers’girlfriends such a measure. We remembered Rab Butler’s famous and to the clause in the Bill that, at the moment, reference to politics being “the art of the possible”. includes just about everything in consideration of There is no fundamental difference in principle about financial relief, although I hope that we will cut it the need to do something for people like the Burden down dramatically. There is no telling what those sisters. Of course, they lost their case in Strasbourg, reasonable needs will be. Two sisters or a father and where the court said that there was no obligation to daughter cannot, of course, take advantage of Schedule 1 deal with the difference of treatment from which they to the Children Act, which allows for support for the suffered. mother of a child. If there is anything wrong with it, it I apologise for referring to the noble Lord, Lord could be amended, but it would be a pity when all that Henley, incorrectly as “Viscount”. I meant no disrespect is necessary is a small amendment to Schedule 1 to at all, rather the contrary. The noble Lord will remember bring in this whole panoply of cohabitation law, which that we have been here before. During the passage of as it stands will simply lead to family members, such as the Civil Partnership Bill, an attempt was made to sisters, who have lived together feeling hard done by widen it beyond civil partnerships to all carers, a topic because their contribution is not recognised. I see no which was put again and again by those who sought to reason why they should not be included. Later I hope oppose or wreck the Bill. The Government firmly to speak to an amendment about inheritance tax, but resisted that. I should be interested to know whether for now I think that family members should be included. that would be the position today, although I know the Government have reservations about the Bill as a Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: How would the whole. noble Baroness answer the question about whether her amendment would drive a coach and horses through We have been very careful about how the Bill is now taxation law? The noble Baroness may not believe that framed and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has not inheritance tax should exist but I happen to believe complained about this on any earlier amendments. very strongly that it should exist because of the distortions The Long Title makes it very clear what the Bill is created within society by the passing on of great about. It states: riches. Would this provision not be used as a way of “Provide certain protections for persons who live together as a undermining the taxation system which seeks to create couple or have lived together as a couple. greater equity within our society? Clause 1(1)(a) says, “in the event of their ceasing to live together as a couple”, Baroness Deech: I completely share the concerns of and in the definition of “cohabitant”, Clause 2(1)(a) the noble Baroness. Later we shall come to an amendment says, in which I propose a discretion for the court to allow for a roll over or deferral of inheritance tax—simply a “live together as a couple”. discretion. I do not for a moment suggest that we So the scheme of the Bill is that there is a sexual should create a loophole whereby any two family relationship between a cohabiting couple. The condition members can use this to avoid inheritance tax. The in Clause 2(3)(b), which the noble Baroness wishes to Committee will know of the much debated and much delete, is that the cohabitees, discussed case of the Burden sisters. That is the one “are not within prohibited degrees of relationship in relation to situation which I have in mind. I also cannot see the each other”. logic of knocking out prohibited degrees of relationships In other words, although the Bill is dealing with a at this stage. We are not talking about people forming cohabiting couple, what is being proposed is what in a sexual relationship; we are simply talking about a marriage would be regarded as incest. I know that is situation in which two, possibly elderly, members of not the noble Baroness’s proposal but that is what it one family live together. They alone will be excluded comes to. We have been extremely careful to make sure from the benefits now given to divorcing couples and that the only people who can benefit from the Bill are civil partners. those who are not in prohibited relationships in the same way as would apply to marriage. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley): Can the Committee be clear about whether Baroness Deech: The noble Lord mentioned living the noble Baroness has moved Amendment 2? It is, together as a couple and then went on to say that this “page 2, line 7, leave out paragraph (b)? implies a sexual relationship. This definition is not in Baroness Deech: Yes, I beg to move. the Bill; it is novel and I do not think that all of us would assume that living as a couple entails a sexual Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I have great sympathy relationship. What about two people aged 90 in an with the problem of the Burden sisters and others. old-age home—where, no doubt, all of us will find During the consultation on this Bill one of the original ourselves one day—who decide to share a home with a 425 Cohabitation Bill [HL][LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 426

[BARONESS DEECH] have extraordinary sympathy for the amendment; that carer? I do not think there is any requirement in this is why I added my name to it. It is right that one Bill for a sexual relationship and we cannot presume should do something to help with inheritance tax or that it is there or that it should not be. other matters relating to financial support those who are living together but are not necessarily cohabiting Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The noble Baroness, in the noble Lord’s sense of the word. I therefore Lady Deech, should do justice to herself. She knows support the noble Baroness on her amendment; it may perfectly well that the reason why she is seeking to not be the right amendment to divide on, but there delete the paragraph on prohibited relationships is may be other amendments later on which we want to because she wishes it not to be confined to a sexual divide, because there are major financial implications. relationship. She is under no doubt that the Bill is At this stage, we would all be very grateful if the noble dealing with a couple living together in a sexual Lord, Lord Brett, could explain to the House what relationship. If that were not clear, we could make it those are and give the Government’s view, because this absolutely clear later in the passage of the Bill. She is is one amendment—there will be others—on which seeking to apply it to brothers and sisters and everybody the view of the Government is very important. else implied by “within prohibited degrees” because she wants to do justice to the Burden sisters and to Lord Pannick: Before the Minister gives us the carers generally. She also wants to deal with inheritance benefit of the view of the Government, perhaps I may tax. She does not want to abolish inheritance tax; she say a few words. I first declare an interest as counsel wants to treat a cohabiting couple in a non-sexual for the Burden sisters in their own successful claim in relationship in the same way as a married couple, but the European Court of Human Rights. Some counsel giving a discretion instead of a right, so that when, let invariably convince themselves, if not the court, of the us say, the man dies and the wife—or in this case the justice of every cause that they are advancing. I am cohabitee—would normally be liable for inheritance not in that category, but I share the concerns expressed tax, that can be postponed. I understand why she is by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that the Burden doing that but it is wholly outside the scope of what is sisters and others like them are unjustifiably discriminated in intended and would kill the Bill. Since I know that against by the state in being denied similar tax and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is an enemy of the other benefits to cohabiting partners who are not Bill, I suspect that is her true object, but I strongly related. I very much hope that the Government will oppose the amendment for the reasons I have just listen to the repeated concerns expressed by the noble summarised. It would not be possible for any Government, Baroness and others that a step should be taken to including a Conservative Government, to approve a amend inheritance law to remedy the injustice to the Bill of this nature, dealing with it in this way. I hope to Burden sisters and others in their circumstances. hear from the Minister on that point. However, the Bill is not an appropriate vehicle to secure that aim. The Bill is intended to remedy a Lord Henley: Before the Minister responds, I will specific social mischief. To expand its aims would say a word or two. I assure the noble Lord, Lord inevitably make it even less likely that it will be Lester of Herne Hill, that I also remember the Civil enacted. Partnership Bill on which my noble friend Lady Wilcox spoke for our party. That was a government Bill, which seemed appropriate for a matter of this sort, Baroness Butler-Sloss: I, too, have the greatest possible and we explored—although I do not think at any stage sympathy with the amendment and with the noble we voted on—the question of what, for reasons of Baroness in her promotion of it, but I agree with the simplicity, we will refer to as the case of the Burden noble Lord, Lord Henley, that this is a matter that sisters and others. I would not suggest pressing this ought to be in a government Bill at some stage. As the amendment to a Division at this stage, partly because, noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, I should like to think although I am speaking from the Front Bench, I am that the Government will look at the matter, because not speaking for our party, as we do not do that on there is a manifest injustice to the people involved, but Private Members’ Bills. I am responding for myself it is not appropriate that it should be in the Bill. The and I imagine most right-minded people in the Bill is intended to deal with men and women and Conservative Party would agree with me, but I have no single-sex couples living in a relationship which has idea what any future Conservative Government are some analogy with marriage. It is a relationship, whether likely to do in relation to a Bill of the sort that the it is sexual or not, which is treated as a couple in a way noble Lord has put before us. that two sisters or father and daughter are not so What I know is that most of us would think that a treated or so understood in ordinary language. I hope matter of this sort is more appropriately dealt with that the noble Baroness would not feel it necessary to by a government Bill, as was the Civil Partnership press the amendment for the reasons that the noble Act 2004. It might be that this Government, in their Lord, Lord Henley, has already given. dying days, if they can find nothing else to do, will bring forward such a Bill and we could have some fun Baroness Deech: It is reassuring to hear the support discussing it. for the amendment. An answer to two small points At this stage on a Thursday evening to be discussing would enable me to let go of this. One is that the noble matters of this sort when we have another 30 or 40 Lord, Lord Lester, has indicated that the way the Bill amendments and we are quite obviously not going to is drafted, together with the amendment in my name finish the Bill seems pointless. All I can say is that I and that of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, must mean 427 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 428 that a couple is having a sexual relationship, whereas that county. I can only suggest that he should not the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, count quite as many as he seems to have counted at the said otherwise. moment.

Baroness Deech: I beg leave to withdraw the Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I did not mean to say amendment. that it was as narrow as that. The way it has just been put by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, Amendment 2 withdrawn. is the correct way of putting it, which is that it is in many respects analogous to marriage. It is not about Amendment 3 whether there is actual sex; it is that it is a cohabiting Moved by Baroness Deech couple in a continuous relationship. That is the point. 3: Clause 2, page 2, line 12, leave out “taken into account” and We are not dealing with sexual matters, nor should we insert “disregarded” in the Bill. Baroness Deech: This amendment and those coupled Baroness Deech: That is reassuring. One of the with it are about retrospectivity. One of the striking scenarios we feared is questions when determining features about the Bill’s drafting is that it is retrospective finance about the extent of sexual relationship. I am in looking at cohabitation that occurred before the glad to hear that that is not included. It would be commencement date while at the same time ignoring reassuring if the Government would indicate whether agreements that might have been made before the they have heard our concerns about the Burden sisters commencement date. It seems to me not right that the and will do something in the future for people like that. law should apply to two people who started to live together before the Act, especially as they will have Lord Brett: I rise to inform the debate and not made no formal commitment, as the Minister has just particularly to respond to it. These linked amendments pointed out. That is the whole trouble with the Bill. effectively include Amendment 26, which also was People who have deliberately avoided making a spoken to. These amendments change the conditions commitment are to have a law placed upon them. Yet, that must be met for the Bill’s provisions to apply. The at the same time, in English law, when adult married requirement to live as a couple remains, but the couples make a prenuptial or post-nuptial agreement requirement that couple should not be within prohibited it is largely ignored by the court. It is an extraordinary degrees of relationship is removed. This, as has been situation. said, would appear to mean that, for example, a brother Certainly, the law should not be retrospective. The and sister could live together as a “couple” and be retrospective application of the law is nearly always considered “cohabitants” within the meaning of the against the rule of law. This goes back into history. Bill, so that the provisions of the Bill would apply. Citizens should know, in advance, before they take any That would seem to me to raise at least several action, what law will be applied to what they are major issues, not the least of which is the difference doing. In the past, people will have entered cohabitation between family members—brothers and sisters—and in the belief that it is a private affair between the two those who are married or in civil partnerships. The of them. They chose it deliberately because there latter have made a formal public commitment with would be no consequences. To come along at this stage legal consequences, while brothers and sisters and and catch that previous cohabitation seems very unfair other family members simply have not. Also, the families and contrary to what we normally understand the about which the noble Baroness and others have spoken reach of the law to be. Blackstone and the Athenians may be the kind of families that are totally at one in were against retrospectivity. Allah is said to have been understanding outcome and outlook and that never against retrospectivity. He allegedly said, “We never have even have a tiff. However, that is not necessarily punish humankind before I have sent in a messenger”. the situation in all families in the United Kingdom. It is quite possible to have someone living together as 6.30 pm sisters or brothers, or a mixture of both, that fall out This amendment will prevent the clause operating violently. The consequence of this, if it were to be at a time prior to the enactment of the Bill, which enacted, would be the possibility of litigation once would therefore cut down that which I fear—namely they have ceased to live together. The Committee will harassment, blackmail and threats of litigation. It therefore understand why the Government are not seems to me that the legal consequences of actions supportive of these amendments. taken in the past should be determined by whatever The noble Lord, Lord Henley, invited me—tempted law applied then and not be subject to law which was me, even—to suggest that the Government might have not discoverable at the time. After all, even in the case nothing better to do in their dying days than to of Sir Fred Goodwin, did we not all cry out in outrage introduce legislation. As the Committee knows, in at the thought that something might be taken from 2006 Scotland introduced provisions similar to those him retrospectively? European law says that a, recommended in the Law Commission report. We “state cannot retrospectively remove a right without a transitional wish to learn and assess from its experience before we period”. move down that track in any way. The noble Lord, We should be careful throughout this Bill to make Lord Henley—a near neighbour of mine in the beautiful sure that there is no counting of previous cohabitation county of Cumbria—and I are both quite proud of and that where we are counting a two-year period, the size and quality of the chickens that we have in beyond which one would not be able to bring an 429 Cohabitation Bill [HL][LORDS] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 430

[BARONESS DEECH] Deech about retrospectivity, but we are dealing with a application because the cohabitation is too old, this particular group of people who have been in long should operate only after the commencement date. It pre-existing relationships and who will need help. If is extremely important that if a Bill like this is passed, we make this provision as from the date when the Bill people should get the maximum publicity and should becomes law, they will have to wait another five years know what they are letting themselves in for. We before they and their children, who may by then be should not open the floodgates. grown up, get any help of the kind that I hope the Bill When I taught at Oxford University, I used to warn could give. my male students that if they ever lived with a girl they It is intended that the Bill should be retrospective should be very careful not to say anything like, “Come because it is there to help that comparatively small but and live with me. You will be safe. All this will be significant group of vulnerable people, mainly women. yours”. That was because they would launch themselves A large number of battered women are cohabitants. into an estoppel or constructive trust situation. I must They need not only injunctions on non-molestation have produced a generation of very silent lovers, but I orders but financial support. One without the other did at least warn them. It is extremely important in does not go far. So the legal aid that was being given, if this situation to know what you are doing and that it is given, to the battered woman would not be a great extremely informal arrangements of the past should extension for her to obtain a certain amount of money not be, as people would see it, penalised. I am very to help her bring up the children. concerned about the shortage of legal aid for cases The noble Lord, Lord Henley, made a point about like this. the law. Under Clause 8, In recent months, the Family Law Bar Association “The court may make a financial settlement order if … having and others have protested vigorously that some of the regard to all the circumstances, the court considers that it is just most serious cases we face of vulnerable battered and equitable to make an order”. women and babies are not getting proper legal attention Having been a judge, I declare my interest. If we are because the family legal aid bill is being cut by £6 talking about a woman having a series of one-night million. I cannot find it just that we should open a stands, with the toothbrush moving from one place to door to cases between cohabitants who in the past had another, she would not receive any money. That is the no idea that this would happen while at the same time short answer to the point of the toothbrush. In addition, cutting legal aid for genuine physically dangerous judges are perfectly accustomed to dealing with situations that exist now. commencement dates and final dates of relationships; This Bill needs publicity and needs to allow people they have had to do it for years and years under the to think about what they are doing. That is the purpose Matrimonial Causes Act 1973. I have had to work out of this amendment, which I hope the Committee will when people started to live together and in particular, support. I beg to move. because of marriage, when they parted. The date of parting was often extremely important in assessing whether they fulfilled the requirements of having been Lord Henley: I fully support the noble Baroness, separated for a sufficient number of years. Lady Deech, in Amendment 3, which is grouped with Amendments 12 to 14 and attempts to deal with the It is a judge’s job to evaluate the evidence and come to whole problem of retrospection. I shall be very interested the conclusion about whether either of them was to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has to say telling the truth. In many cases between couples who on this in due course. I imagine that, as a good lawyer have been living together, no one is telling the truth; as and a good human rights lawyer, he will be opposed to a result, the court comes to a practical conclusion. I retrospection as much as we are. When the noble Lord see no difficulty; I am slightly surprised that the noble comes to reply, perhaps he could also deal with the Lord, who has some experience of legal matters, should points I asked earlier on the commencement of the believe that this was a difficult matter for a judge at two or five years. I still think that it is a difficult any level to work out when they started together and evidential problem that will create a lot of joy for the when they finished. They are all practical facts that lawyers and which we would like to have dealt with can be found by the judge. before we see the departure of this Bill. How do we define when that cohabitation started? I Lord Pannick: I declare another interest. I was a talked rather flippantly of the one-night stand, or pupil of my noble friend Lady Deech at Oxford. I maybe the second one-night stand, starting off that always listened carefully to what she taught me about process. Perhaps it was when the toothbrush moved the facts of life as well as the content of the law. One into the other party’s quarters, or does it need slightly of the legal principles she taught me is that the courts more than a toothbrush—for example, a suitcase full will interpret legislation to deny retrospection so far as of clothes as well? No doubt, the noble Lord will be fairness and human rights principles require it to do able to assist the Committee in providing an answer to so. That is sufficient protection in addition to the the point that I asked him about on Amendment 1. points with which I agree, made by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. Baroness Butler-Sloss: I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will have to hear me give the Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I shall deal with a answer first. There is no reason why the noble Lord, number of points. First, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, Lord Lester, should not give it as well. I oppose the asked how the court would assess a continuous period amendment. I take the point of my noble friend Lady of five years. The answer is that the court is perfectly 431 Cohabitation Bill [HL][30 APRIL 2009] Cohabitation Bill [HL] 432 capable of dealing with it as a question of fact. The would be trips to the solicitors after conversations evidence would be put forward in the ordinary way, as along the lines of, “I lived with you 10 years ago and I it is whenever a continuous period is required to be left without a penny” or “I lived with you five years determined. I see no difficulty about that and do not ago”. All that will be going on and form 99 per cent of understand why there should be. the cases. Only very rarely would such a case make Secondly, I want to make a point that has not so far it into court, but retrospection will reopen the been made. Couples who live together for five years bitterness of old relationships. That is the danger, not before the Bill comes into force but did so without what happens in court, where I have every faith in wishing to accrue rights and responsibilities in respect what the judges will do. Threats will be made and of each other will, under the Bill, be able to opt out expenses incurred that will not be seen in court because during the lead-in period. In that way, the Bill avoids of retrospection. There are also problems with an opt imposing obligations on couples who do not wish to out, although this may not be the time to go into be bound by the Bill’s provisions, but it would cover them. those who do not so object and who deserve protection. I must appeal to the important principle that something There was very strong support in the consultation on as deeply profound in its effect as this law should not the Bill to cover existing couples, and so far as retrospection be retrospective. There needs to be publicity. I should is concerned, it is commonplace in dealing with remedial like to test the opinion of the Committee because I legislation—such as equal pay legislation, to take an believe it to be a very important principle. obvious example—to give the benefit “retrospectively”, if one wants to use the word, in a period before a Bill comes into force to someone who is the victim of 6.45 pm discrimination in some context. It is absolutely clear that in the criminal law no Division on Amendment 3 retrospective penalty should be imposed because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has said, it is part of Contents 11; Not-Contents 24. the rule of law and the principle of legal certainty. There is no problem about that. We are dealing here Amendment 3 disagreed. with remedial legislation with a full capacity to opt out. Therefore, my own hope and belief would be that Division No. 1 this is fully compatible with human rights. Indeed, it actually promotes the rights of a willing cohabiting CONTENTS couple who want their accrued rights and responsibilities Baker of Dorking, L. Kirkham, L. to be taken into account under the Bill. As I say, there Chalker of Wallasey, B. Marlesford, L. was strong support for this. Deech, B. [Teller] Gardner of Parkes, B. Norton of Louth, L. However, I agree with the noble Baroness in her Henley, L. [Teller] Seccombe, B. concern about legal aid in family proceedings, including Howe, E. Wilcox, B. public law family proceedings. Of course the costs of lawyers and litigation arise in the family area particularly NOT CONTENTS when dealing with the ghastly complexities of, for example, trust law and matters of that kind. This Bill Addington, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Barker, B. does not give rise to complicated legal issues of the Mallalieu, B. Butler-Sloss, B. [Teller] Pannick, L. kind seen in the principles of equity and trust law D’Souza, B. Parekh, L. under the bad law that exists at the moment—bad law Dubs, L. Puttnam, L. Flather, B. in the sense that it is unusable for working-class Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. couples without the ability to pay for expensive lawyers. Goudie, B. Hamwee, B. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Therefore, I join with those who are opposed to the Howells of St. Davids, B. [Teller] amendment. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. King of West Bromwich, L. Warnock, B. Baroness Deech: A couple who found themselves Lester of Herne Hill, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. before the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, Livsey of Talgarth, L. Wilkins, B. would be fortunate, and her experience is valuable. But I must remind the Committee that if this were to House resumed. become a retrospective law, most of those couples would never find themselves in a court. Rather, it House adjourned at 6.56 pm.

GC 105 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 106

I understand from briefing that has been produced Grand Committee by the Electoral Commission that it feels that these amendments, among others to Schedule 2, would provide Thursday, 30 April 2009. the commission with considerable flexibility to impose the most suitable sanction in each case. It deserves a response from the Government and I would be grateful Political Parties and Elections Bill to hear what they have to say. I beg to move. Committee (2nd Day) The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I have to tell Noon the Committee that if Amendment 47 is agreed I The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): cannot call Amendment 48 because of pre-emption. I have to tell the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry will resume after 10 minutes. of Justice (Lord Bach): The amendments seek to amend the paragraphs of this part of the schedule that define the circumstances in which the commission may impose Schedule 2 : Civil sanctions: Schedule to be inserted a discretionary requirement on a person, a registered into the 2000 Act party, a recognised third party or a permitted participant. Each amendment replaces the relevant paragraph with a new paragraph, which retains much of what is Amendment 47 currently in the Bill. Moved by Lord Henley However, there are some important differences that we are unable to accept. First, these amendments 47: Schedule 2, page 34, line 7, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert— move the word “prescribed” from these sections when “( ) The Commission may impose one or more discretionary referring to offences. We dealt with this in Committee requirements on a person— yesterday. We do not believe that this approach is (a) if satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the person— desirable as the full details of which offences may be punished with a civil sanction should be set out in (i) has committed an offence under this Act, or secondary legislation, subject to affirmative resolution (ii) has (otherwise than by committing an offence and thus to full scrutiny of both Houses. under this Act) contravened a restriction or requirement imposed by or by virtue of this Act, or Additionally, the amendments significantly depart (b) with the express agreement of the person concerned.” from the current drafting of the Bill by adding a new heading (b), which states that a discretionary requirement may be imposed “with the express agreement” of the Lord Henley: In the absence of my noble friend person or organisation involved. In effect, the amendments Lord Bates, I shall be moving the Conservative propose that a person could come forward and give amendments today. I trust that we shall make good their agreement to the commission to impose a progress so that I can adjourn later to the Chamber to discretionary requirement. We are not sure that the give our views on the Cohabitation Bill. I do not know provision of such a step is logical in procedural terms. whether the Minister will be dealing with that; I think A civil penalty, by its nature, should accompany a that one of his colleagues will be. breach as defined by the commission, and it is for the I shall speak also to Amendments 49, 53 and 57. commission, not for the person concerned, to decide Again, these are probing amendments. They seek to whether a breach or contravention has taken place. If require that the commission may negotiate the acceptance a person should be allowed to volunteer themselves by the person, the registered party, the registered third for a sanction in this way, the commission would party or the permitted participant concerned of a presumably need to investigate the claim in order to discretionary requirement. The amendment will allow determine the level of the penalty, but it might in fact this negotiation even if the commission is not satisfied decide that an offence had not occurred. It appears beyond reasonable doubt of an offence or contravention that these amendments could create potential for and/or the person concerned does not accept that such unnecessary administrative burdens on the commission an offence has been committed. This works together where there was no need. with our desire to strengthen the Electoral Commission If the commission were presented with evidence of and enhances its powers and the proportionate use of a breach, it could decide to act on that evidence. As a the new range of flexible sanctions. regulator, it should not be seeking “express agreement” It also usefully reflects the provision put forward in from those regulated in order to perform its duties. Schedule 2, paragraph 15, where the person concerned Moreover, if the purpose is to provide an option to has the power to accept undertakings to take action so encourage co-operation and compliance, that is of that the offence or contravention does not reoccur and course admirable. However, we argue that it is unnecessary the position is, as far as possible, restored to what it as the Bill already provides for such co-operation in would have been if the offence or contravention had the form of enforcement undertakings, to which the not taken place, or is action of a “prescribed description”. noble Lord, Lord Henley, referred. An enforcement The difference is that our amendment means that the undertaking is where a person enters into agreement commission rather than the person concerned can with the commission and gives an undertaking to take take the initiative. a particular course of action. The amendments seem GC 107 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 108

[LORD BACH] It is already clear that the commission will be in some sense to seek to alter discretionary requirements required, in accordance with general public law principles, to make them more akin to enforcement undertakings. to apply these sanctions in a “reasonable manner”. We do not think that that is either necessary or desirable. Were it to act in a way that is not proportionate and So far as concerns the commission’s view on this, as timely, it could form the basis for grounds of appeal we understand it, it agrees that removing the word against the resulting sanction. This constraint is more “prescribed” would give flexibility, but it expects that powerful and effective than amending the provision in Parliament would want to give a view, which is the the way suggested by the amendment. Government’s position. The commission is well aware of the need, with I am grateful for the short debate on this and for the these new sanctions, not only to act cautiously but amendment moved by the noble Lord. However, it is also to proceed in a timely fashion. However, we are not an amendment that we can accept. wary that any attempt to be more prescriptive over the commission’s procedures, however well intentioned, may produce unintended and unwanted consequences. Lord Henley: I am grateful for that explanation For instance, could inserting this kind of language in from the noble Lord. If I heard him correctly at the the Bill create the possibility of the commission feeling beginning—perhaps he would nod to confirm it—in that it must make a hasty decision on prosecution due course regulations will come before the House rather than a correct decision? dealing with how the commission should operate in this matter and these will be affirmative. The noble In drafting this schedule on civil sanctions, we have Lord referred to some affirmative regulations and we sought to follow as closely as possible the framework will be seeing those some time after the passage of the established for other regulators by the Regulatory Bill. Is that correct? For the sake of the record, I state Enforcement and Sanctions Act. As my right honourable that the noble Lord nodded and made noises that friend the Minister of State has maintained throughout sounded as though he affirmed my statement. That this process, and as I said yesterday, we do not think it being the case, we will have a further chance to look at appropriate to depart from this model unless it is these matters in due course, and I am grateful to the absolutely necessary. After all, why should the regulator noble Lord for making it clear that the regulations will that enforces the law for those of us involved in be affirmative. With that in mind, I beg leave to politics be subject to a set of provisions different from withdraw the amendment. those for regulators in other fields? I again thank the noble Lord for raising the point, but we do not feel Amendment 47 withdrawn. that we can accept his amendment.

Amendments 48 to 60 not moved. Lord Henley: I am grateful to the Minister. I understand clearly that if one puts “promptly” in one piece of legislation, it changes one’s possible interpretation of Amendment 60A other legislation, because the use of “promptly” in the Moved by Lord Henley former would imply that there was no need for promptness where the word was not used. 60A: Schedule 2, page 35, line 41, after “shall” insert “promptly” Nevertheless, it was a point worth briefly making, Lord Henley: I shall not be moving the two other because I think that all of us think that it would be amendments in this group—Amendments 60B and 62—as good practice for the commission to act—the Minister I think that we discussed them to some extent yesterday. put it better than me—in a timely manner. However, I apologise again to the Committee for the fact that I “promptly” is perhaps is overprescriptive. I am grateful was unable to be present when my noble friend dealt to the Minister for his explanation and shall therefore with them. However, perhaps noble Lords will bear beg leave to withdraw the amendment. with me if I briefly touch on Amendment 60A, which I do not think need take up too much of the Committee’s Amendment 60A withdrawn. time. Amendment 60B not moved. As the noble Lord will see, the amendment inserts “promptly”after the word “shall”, so that the commission imposes a discretionary requirement on someone Amendment 61 promptly.I hope that that is as simple and self-explanatory Moved by Lord Henley as possible. It stems from a desire to ensure that the commission demonstrates good practice if it hopes for 61: Schedule 2, page 36, leave out lines 28 and 29 similar good practice in return from those with whom it deals. Having said merely that, I would be grateful to Lord Henley: I shall speak also to Amendment 71. hear what the Minister has to say. I beg to move. The amendments are designed to stimulate a brief discussion on early discount payments by removing Lord Bach: We understand the desire that the the possibility of them. I understand that the matter commission should act in a timely manner. We all wish was raised on Report in another place and that the to see the commission act professionally when enforcing Minister there resisted because he wanted to maintain the regulatory regime. However, we do not believe that the greatest amount of flexibility, saying that the provision the amendment will have this effect, nor do we think was modelled on the Regulatory Enforcement and that the wording is necessary. Sanctions Act 2008. We are troubled by the potential GC 109 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 110 for this Bill to encourage over-zealous use of the I do not believe that the availability of these provisions penalties. If the commission has quite so much flexibility degrades these sanctions in any way. It is important to to alter its use of penalties, it may be tempted to hand see the financial penalties contained in the Bill as just out more than are due. part of an overall package. The commission will also Early payments would precede the final notice of have access to other discretionary requirements of a penalty, so the notices that we are discussing are non-financial nature—for instance by requiring a person intended to notify a proposal to implement a penalty to take particular actions to ensure compliance, or by rather than the final penalty itself. We fear that while a entering into an enforcement undertaking with the discount may encourage early payment, it could also person concern, or, in extreme cases, by using a stop diminish the authority of the commission and trivialise notice. Again, we are following closely the provision of the very important message that it sends out. I beg to the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008, move. which includes provisions for early payment discounts and late payment penalties. We have sought to provide 12.15 pm the commission with a proportionate and flexible system which is available for a range of other regulators. It is Lord Rennard: I understand why the Electoral precisely to ensure that the commission is able to act in Commission opposes this amendment. It suggests that a proportionate way according to the facts of the it may ultimately cost more to the public purse if it has circumstances of individual cases that we have followed to pursue through legal avenues recovery of what is this model and we think that there are no compelling owed to it, as opposed to the payment of late penalties. arguments, on balance, to move away from it in this However, if you had sufficiently large late penalties, case. you would get more money in, so it depends on what your legal costs would be as against the amounts from Lord Henley: Again, the noble Lord’s argument the late penalties. I think that it is better to have a seems to be that we must follow the precedent of an system of late penalties—and I say that as someone earlier Act—in this case the Regulatory Enforcement responsible for running a party—because it is clearer and Sanctions Act—and have both the early payment and simpler. You know where you are; if you do not discount and late payment penalties. Obviously, there pay on time, you effectively pay more. I would not like are arguments for both. I noticed that the noble Lord, to encourage the commission to think that it had time Lord Rennard, from the Liberal Democrat Benches, to get into legal arguments to pursue the payments; was saying that they agreed with us that late payment you should know that if you do not pay on time, you penalties was the route to go down and there was no pay more. need for early payment discounts as well. I listened carefully to what the Minister said and I Lord Bach: This amendment and Amendment 71 will read it with some care. It might also be worth grouped with it both relate to provisions in the Bill having discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, for the commission to offer early payment discounts before we look at this again at Report. At this stage, and late payment penalties. Amendment 61 removes the best thing to do is to withdraw the amendment but reference to early payment discounts or late payment say that we may want to return to it at a later stage. penalties for compliance with discretionary requirements. Amendment 61 withdrawn. Amendment 71 would remove paragraph 18 (1)(a), which allows the Secretary of State to make a Amendments 62 to 71 not moved. supplementary order to allow the commission to offer, “provision for early payment discounts”, Amendment 72 for any of the monetary penalties contained in the Moved by Lord Henley Bill. 72: Schedule 2, page 44, line 43, after “their” insert “reasonable” These incentives are replicated from the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008, which give those Lord Henley: We now come to the end of this batch on whom a sanction is imposed an incentive to accept of opposition amendments. In moving Amendment 72, it, and deal with it in a timely fashion. This may I shall also speak to Amendment 73. I hope that I can encourage compliance, reduce the workload that late be fairly brief because they are more probing than payment would create for the commission, and is a anything else. proportionate mechanism to help encourage compliance Amendment 72 would insert “reasonable” so that with these penalties. While the Bill may provide for the report becomes the reasonable opinion of the these procedural discounts and penalties, the commission Electoral Commission. On Amendment 73, we felt is not compelled by the Bill to offer them in all that rather than, instances. It is a matter for the commission’s judgment, “might adversely affect any current investigation”, to apply its expertise and experience to decide where we should make the provision somewhat stronger and and when they would be appropriate. We believe that say that it, the availability of these options provides a tool that “would adversely affect any current investigation”. they may decide to use to ensure this. Indeed, as the It is obviously very important that the commission noble Lord, Lord Rennard, suggested, the commission should have some form of flexibility and, in terms of has said that it does not support Amendment 61 reporting, that is very useful. However, this could go because, too far because as it stands there is no requirement “such penalties are likely to encourage prompt settlement and that the commission’s opinion as to the lawfulness or reduce the need to use public funds to pursue payment”. any adverse effects of publishing certain information GC 111 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 112

[LORD HENLEY] possibly unnecessary; one’s opinion may be assumed be reasonable. We feel that an opinion to this end to be reasonable. The use of that word is also inelegant. should be reasonable. Amendment 73 would strengthen However, I feel slightly more strongly about adding the wording in the Bill to make it absolutely clear that “would”instead of “might”. Despite what the commission the commission should not include anything that would said, that would refocus it when deciding whether adversely affect investigations. I would be grateful for publication of information would damage its investigation. the noble Lord’s comments on those amendments. I In accommodating the mere subjective opinion beg to move. requirement, which we have identified, this section would allow for a very cautious report indeed, which Lord Bach: The amendments would slightly alter might not be fully informative and might not truly the language used to describe the circumstances in reflect the reality of the commission’s work. However, which the commission may leave information out of a I shall look very carefully at what the noble Lord said. report. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord in I am pretty sure that I will not come back on telling him that I will resist the amendments on the Amendment 72, but we may want to have another grounds that they are unnecessary and would hamper look at Amendment 73 in due course. We will have to in one case the commission’s operational effectiveness. see. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment 72 would add the word “reasonable” amendment. to the provision relating to the application of the commission’s opinions. At the risk of repeating myself, the commission must already act in a reasonable way. Amendment 72 withdrawn. Failure to do so risks judicial review. It is implicit in the drafting that any opinion that can be taken into Amendment 73 not moved. account must be one that is reasonably held. It would not be open to the commission, as a body Schedule 2 agreed. subject to the usual principles of public law, to form a manifestly unreasonable opinion and then act on that, so I do not think that we need to add this here. It Clause 4 agreed. might set a slightly unhelpful precedent and imply that other regulators in a similar position would be able to hold and act on “unreasonable” opinions. Clause5:FourElectoral Commissioners to be persons Amendment 73 causes us greater concern, because put forward by parties this could have an adverse effect on the commission’s operational effectiveness in some cases. The Bill states Amendment 74 that the commission may leave out details from its report on sanctions if including them, Moved by Lord Tyler “might adversely affect any current investigation or proceedings”. 74: Clause 5, page 4, line 12, at end insert— Perhaps the word “might” is not specific enough for “( ) In making a nomination under subsection (3), registered the noble Lord, but we use it with good reason. party leaders must— We use it because it allows the commission to apply (a) ensure that the nominated person has relevant experience its general judgment and knowledge of specific cases in the conduct of elections and the organisation of political to make decisions about what “might” subsequently parties; and impact on an investigation. At the time that a judgment (b) have regard to the desirability for the overall is required to be made about what to include in a composition of the Commission to benefit from diverse report it may be very difficult or impossible to say representation.” whether something definitely would have an adverse effect on the potential outcome of an investigation or Lord Tyler: I should remind the Grand Committee, proceedings, particularly if the investigation or proceedings as I mentioned at Second Reading, that although I do are at an early stage. In its latest briefing on the Bill, not have any pecuniary interest, I was a member of the the Electoral Commission, in opposing Amendment 73, informal advisory group of parliamentarians convened notes that it may not always be possible to be certain by the previous chair of the Electoral Commission. I whether or not such information could affect a current am not quite clear as to whether I still exist in that role, case. because that group has not met since the appointment Positively requiring the commission to identify whether of the new chair. information “would” have an adverse effect could be highly damaging. It is only right that the commission We turn to a very important issue that has preoccupied be given a reasonable degree of latitude in making a great many people: whether or not there should be at potentially fine value judgments in these sorts of the highest level in the Electoral Commission people circumstance. Our proposal to retain “might” will with direct political experience. Clause 5 in an important achieve the correct result without fundamentally reducing way modifies the previous Political Parties, Elections the level of transparency that the reporting requirement and Referendums Act 2000. I should say at the outset is, of course, intended to provide. that I was agnostic to this proposal, partly because of my experience in the informal group of parliamentarians. Lord Henley: The noble Lord took a stronger line I have come around to it and, therefore, I have the on the second amendment, rather than on the first. I merit of conversion, having looked at the arguments was perfectly happy to drop the first amendment, very carefully, which are more balanced than perhaps given that adding “reasonable” before “opinion” is some are prepared to admit. GC 113 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 114

12.30 pm the traditional way, that you are implicitly saying to the other members of the Commission, ‘You sit back while the politicians I have looked carefully at the evidence given to the do the deals’. I do not think this should be a deal-led body; I think Committee on Standards in Public Life on this issue, it should be a public-interest, rule-led body”. and at the conclusions reached by Sir Hayden Phillips. These are important issues and I hope that the Grand I am sure that all Members of the Committee would Committee will forgive me if we spend time on them, say amen to that. Clearly it would be the wrong way because this is our only opportunity to discuss them. to go. This is our only amendment on the body of Clause 5 The recommendations of the committee were firm: and it is important that we examine it with some care. if there was going to be change—and this was very I was struck by some advice given to the Committee much the desire at the time—the new commissioners on Standards in Public Life. Those who were doubtful should be appointed as individual members of a unitary about the proposition made much of the fact that board, not as representatives or delegates of a particular commissioners might see themselves as representatives political party. The committee set out some proposals of political parties, and indeed of the leaders of those to try to achieve that. parties at the time, rather than feeling that they were Turning to the Hayden Phillips investigations of bringing to the corpus of information and experience these issues, much of that evidence was again reflected of the commission a more practical approach than in the analysis that was the subject of that inquiry. His perhaps has been apparent in the commission’s relatively conclusion was: short life. The argument was made to the committee that the Electoral Commission should not only be “Would the addition of these four Commissioners unbalance above party political wrangles, but should be seen to the Commission itself, causing it to be divided along party lines? be above them. The previous chair, Sam Younger, … The majority of Commissioners would not come from the political parties and the four with party experience would not be made the point strongly.In his evidence to the committee, representative of their parties. For the most part, I would envisage he said that, that they would be former politicians, men and women who “the one thing we”— understand party politics but whose primary allegiance as Commissioners would be to the public interest, rather than to the that is, the commissioners— partisan cause”. “do not have is the experience of operating as either elected politicians or actively within parties. Therefore we need to have That is the point that we address in Amendment 74. access to that expertise and experience, and that we recognise … Frankly, the way in which that is currently set out in There are various ways we have tried to plug that gap. Most the Bill gives no guidance to the party leaders, let recently, and I think probably this is overdue, and I hope it will alone to the general public, regarding the sort of work and is without prejudice to what might happen in the future experience and expertise that will be expected of these either statutorily or otherwise—but we have established a small four commissioners. The last thing we would want is reference group of three members of the House of Lords, three four splendid individuals who are redundant politicians members of the House of Commons, from each of the main parties”. and who have ceased to have any real value but may be rather difficult to satisfy in terms of something to keep That is the group to which I referred. It was clear that them out of the way—people such as myself. That the commission and the chairman saw that there was a would be entirely inappropriate. We have to be extremely gap there, but they were not enthusiastic about filling careful that the party leaders, individually and collectively, it on a statutory basis. are given guidance about what will be expected. Hence, There were others who gave advice to the committee. our emphasis on diversity. We see it as important that My right honourable friend Alan Beith MP, who was the party leaders talk to one another so that the four probably then the chairman of the relevant Select representatives are not all from the same sort of stable—all Committee—this was a few years ago—said that: elderly, male, white, former party apparatchiks. As we “There were other cases where I think the Commission did not say very clearly in our amendment, we are looking for understand the distinction between those things which confer a number of people who have relevant experience in advantage on a candidate in an election, and therefore should be the conduct of elections and the organisation of political looked at and costed by them and declared to them, and those parties but who also bring to the commission some things which are part and parcel of being a member of parliament diversity of representation. and carrying out public duties ... All of these things, I think, illustrated a lack of awareness of what went on in the real world As I said at the outset, it is extremely important of being a politician and not of a partisan character”. that, once someone is nominated, he or she is not seen The committee took a great deal of evidence from as the representative of a party, let alone a party active politicians and others on this issue. I have one leader. Party leaders change, and the last thing we more quotation, this time from Lord Holme, who want is for someone who is put on to the commission sadly is no longer with us. He gave a great deal of to feel that they are there at the mercy or whim of the thought to this and, as chairman of the Constitution party leader. As I said, party leaders change, and we Committee of your Lordships’ House, was very exercised do not want a lack of continuity or consistency in the by the failure to take account of the experience of contribution that can be made. other countries. He said, in evidence to the committee: Just as dangerous would be to have a yes man or yes “I think there is a danger that you get what has happened with woman who was simply there to represent the views of the Federal Electoral Commission in the States, which has really just become a forum in which the parties negotiate. It is really no the party hierarchy. If we are going to try to ensure more than that; it is a place, as you have no doubt observed, where that there is direct experience of the way in which the parties cut their deals. I think that would be extremely elections happen at the grass-roots level, that is not the undesirable ... There is a danger, if the party nominees bounce in sort of person who should be eligible for this purpose. GC 115 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 116

[LORD TYLER] was a good idea to have some political involvement. It is not entirely clear—I hope that in responding The suggestion then was that we should have a second the Minister will be able to give us some guidance— committee, meeting as and when, but not having an whether the term of office and general responsibilities enormous amount of influence on what was happening. of these new commissioners will be exactly the same as Perhaps I may give an example and also declare an set out in Schedule 1 to the PPERA. If so, we might interest that I failed to declare yesterday. I am chair of find that they are rather too much at the mercy of the HS Chapman Society, a body that looks at election their nominating party leader. This is a good moment organisation and of which the Electoral Commission to ask the Minister whether there will be security of is a part. The society frequently received reports from tenure. This is a dangerous thing to say, I know, but we the commission about its work, and I felt very sorry are all aware that at the moment in your Lordships’ for a young man who appeared when the commission House we are here for life; we are not in any way—I produced a series of educational documents for review. shall have to be very careful where I tread here—at the He was telling us how wonderful it all was, that all the mercy of our party leaders. There may be other documents were going out and that one had a week to considerations as to whether or not we remain here, reply. There was also all the nonsense that was going but that has its own merit and it is a hostage to on at that time. I asked him, “And who actually fortune, not least in the terms set out by the noble decides the response to those documents? Who actually Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. However, it is important goes through the responses and says what is right or that the commissioners are not seen to be there simply wrong?”. He said, “Oh, well, as officers, we sit and do for a temporary period while a particular party leader this”. I asked, “And do you have any involvement in thinks that they will be good representatives of his or the political parties?”. “Oh, no, never”, he said. That her interests and his or her party. Therefore, the whole could not have been a better example for having some issue of security of tenure is extremely important. political involvement. I have to say that I felt sorry for We hope that the Minister and other Members of him because I felt that I had been a bit cruel to him. the Grand Committee will see this as a practical way Nevertheless, I believe that the Government are to face up to an important issue. It is an important absolutely right to make these provisions: it is also change to the mode of operation of the Electoral absolutely right that there has to be experience of the Commission. Just as important is the change to perception democratic process. I make the point about politicians that the public and those active in the political world because a wider spectrum of experience is needed. The have of the commission and the way that it operates. process would help the political parties to feel more Given experience since the PPER Act, there are anxieties comfortable with the Electoral Commission. about the extent to which the commission has its feet I have one little query on how the appointments are on the political ground. However, we would be stepping made. The review of the Electoral Commission by the in the wrong direction if in the process, either in CSPL makes the point that although individuals may practice or in perception, we gave it the impression be encouraged to apply by political parties, each post that it was to be the creature of the political leaders. I should be publicly advertised and candidates must beg to move. satisfy all other criteria that apply to commissioner posts. It says that they must also be subject to a Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I have a little selection process based upon merit following the problem with the amendment. It is not that I disagree Commission for Public Appointments’ code of practice. with it, because in a sense I do—I agree with the I hope that that will be the process by which appointments fundamental feeling behind it—but I am not certain are made. It is interpreted that this will somehow be a whether putting only this provision in the Bill is right. direct appointment from the leader of the party. I Would it not be better to pick up the points raised by really have some reservation about that. It is not that I the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on the wider issues around do not think for one moment that people cannot be the role of the commissioners? Perhaps some guidance independent—I am sure that many people around this can be given to the Speaker’s Committee, which is Chamber have been appointments of their own political ultimately responsible, on what we expect of those parties, but have ultimately stood in an independent commissioners, rather than having selective points capacity in those appointments. I do not feel that they included in the Bill. I agree that we must take notice would end up being the voice of the leader; I feel that of diversity and that we must have people with democratically we ought to look seriously at how experience. those appointments are made. I want to pick up a point made by the noble Lord, I repeat that I support the Government’s proposals, Lord Tyler, that he repeated two or three times. When but I feel that what is in the Bill is not quite right. he talked about people with experience, he talked about politicians. There are many other people who are not politicians and who have an enormous amount 12.45 pm of experience, and who therefore may be better people Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I am delighted to do this job. We must ensure that we do not see the to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Gould. We are situation only in those terms. extremely fortunate that she is serving in this Grand I support the Government’s proposal on the four Committee. On a wider front, we are extremely fortunate places. As the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and others that she is the chairman of the HS Chapman Society, know, we spent a lot of time on this issue in the 2000 an organisation with which I am familiar not least also Bill and failed to persuade the Government, even in Australia. It is an organisation of considerable though everyone around the House thought that it value to the general body politic. GC 117 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 118

I have to declare an unusual interest. My wife is the commissioners put forward by the leaders of the three administrator of the fellowship of retired Conservative largest nominating parties—like the three parties agents, whose membership is thrice the number of represented in this Room. This has been a useful agents the Conservative Party could afford to field at debate and I am looking forward to the Minister’s the last general election. But it means that from time response, particularly to the question put by the noble to time I am brought up sharp on election law. Lord, Lord Tyler, on the dismissal of subsection (3) I want to make two comments. One relates to commissioners. I presumed that it would be the same paragraph (a) and the other to paragraph (b) of the process as the other commissioners, but no doubt the amendment. First, I was the first headhunter in the Minister will let us know that they have the appropriate United Kingdom nearly 50 years ago. I planted an independence once they have been appointed. This acorn and there is now a very substantial forest throughout debate has enabled us to discuss the sort of people the recruiting world. One of the areas in which you who the leaders of those parties should put forward. had to exercise considerable discipline was in ensuring However, in the end, as subsection (3) makes clear, the that the client was quite clear what they wanted before party leaders will decide who they will appoint. we set out to look for the person. Periodically, we had Like my noble friend Lord Brooke, I have problems to disagree with their specifications and had to persuade with the second part of the amendment which seeks them to change. But it was absolutely essential to do diversity. It might be an admirable thing to do, but as that at the beginning of the process, which is why I my noble friend pointed out, it is difficult to go for find paragraph (a) a wholly worthwhile contribution diversity when you have the sole right of appointment to the debate. I have no reservations about it being in of one commissioner, someone else has sole right of the Bill. appointment of another and the third is appointed by However, I do have misgivings about paragraph (b). a third person—unless the three leaders get together It seems to me that under American anti-trust law, you to discuss their appointments to see that they are would have to be managing a cartel to know how your being diverse. I would have thought that there would nominee would fit into the creative diversity of be sufficient diversity in the fact that the three appointees appointments by the other members of the team. If will be of the three different political parties, which the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is contemplating that such would make them sufficiently diverse for the noble meetings will occur to facilitate discussions on how Lord. That is what we expect from appointees from parties could help the diversity by the choice of their the leaders of the three parties. We broadly support person, that should be referred to in the Bill. It is Clause 5 as drafted, so I do not think that I can offer difficult to imagine how you would do it otherwise. any support at this stage for the amendment. Frankly, without some degree of mutual conference, Lord Borrie: I offer a few words before the Minister choosing your candidate against the terms of responds. Like my noble friend Lady Gould, I agree paragraph (b) would be like sticking the tail on the with so much of the principle that lay behind what was donkey at a village fete. said by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. In particular, I agreed with what he said about party representatives Lord Campbell-Savours: I want to ask a very simple and the others. The Bill makes it clear that the party question. With the permission of the Committee, I representatives are intended to be a minority of the shall do so now so as to avoid doing so in the clause- total commission. Clearly, they must all work together. stand-part debate. What would the role of the party- They would not work together very well if the party appointed commissioners be when decisions on penalties nominees regarded themselves as representatives of are being considered? Even though a commissioner parties, let alone representatives of the party leader. I had made every effort to be utterly independent in agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord judgment, if they have such a role, surely the Committee Tyler, on that. should be considering it at this stage. However, like my noble friend Lady Gould, I am doubtful about the amendments. I realise that the Baroness Gould of Potternewton: That is an important noble Lord had to table amendments to enable discussion point. There may have to be occasions when the about the Bill, but with the best will in the world, and commission does not participate. That is why I return no doubt he has looked at the drafting carefully, the to the point that we need proper guidance. We need wording of his amendments to Clause 5 is not apt at something properly written down about the role of all. Perhaps that is being a little harsh. Paragraph (a) those commissioners and the terms of their appointments would to make sure that all these points, which could be “ensure that the nominated person has relevant experience in the fundamental, are actually covered. conduct of elections”, and so forth, But that is much too narrow. It would no Lord Campbell-Savours: My noble friend, who has doubt be delightful and excellent to have someone of great experience in these matters, referred to guidance. the huge experience of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, Do we not need a little more than that? Guidance can and if that could be equated in the other parties, that be ignored. would be fine, but that is only one version of what is meant by, Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I concede that. “relevant experience in the conduct of elections and the organisation of political parties”. Lord Henley: We broadly support Clause 5 as it is, I think that is much too narrow. It would be delightful and in doing so, support subsection (3), which we are and excellent no doubt to have someone of the huge largely discussing today, dealing with the three nominated experience of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. If that GC 119 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 120

[LORD BORRIE] Clause 5 makes provision which enables the could be equated in the other parties, that is fine—but appointment to the commission of four commissioners that is only one version of what is meant by, with recent political experience. These commissioners “relevant experience in the conduct of elections and the organisation are referred to as nominated commissioners. Clause 5 of political parties”. requires that three of the four nominated commissioners That is really much too narrow. must have been put forward for appointment by the Others have commented on diversity. I very much leaders of the three largest political parties in Parliament, agreed with the cartel points that seemed to resonate with the remaining nominated commissioner put forward through my mind when the noble Lord, Lord Brooke by the leader of one smaller party. This amendment of Sutton Mandeville, spoke. But diverse does not seeks to insert criteria which the registered party leaders necessarily mean what has been intended. I am familiar must satisfy themselves would be met in putting forward with the fact that in recent changes made by the their nominee for the post of nominated commissioner. Government in judicial appointments emphasis has These criteria are that: been made on diversity to ensure that more people “registered party leaders must ensure … that the nominated enter the judiciary who are not white and more women person has relevant experience in the conduct of elections and the than we have had in the past, particularly at the higher organisation of political parties; and … have regard to the desirability for the overall composition of the Commission to benefit from levels. That, I suppose, is what the noble Lord, Lord diverse representation”. Tyler, means—but on the face of it, it could mean “diverse representation” from those experienced in the 1pm conduct of elections for the European Parliament in devolved parliaments and local government. It could I fully appreciate the intention behind the amendment, mean diversity across a whole range of fields; diverse which I believe is to ensure that the individuals who does not necessarily have the meaning that the noble are put forward by the leaders of their parties have the Lord seeks to give it, so I think that paragraph (b) is relevant experience and skills that would enable them too vague. contribute positively to the overall effectiveness of the commission, with the advantage that an organisation For a whole number of reasons, but principally for gains from a diverse membership. the one enunciated by my noble friend Lady Gould of Potternewton, it would not be appropriate to try to do Given the Electoral Commission’s role in relation this in the Bill, even though a much better outcome to elections and party financing, there will no doubt could be reached than the original wording chosen by be general agreement in this Committee that the nominees noble Lords opposite. should have relevant experience in these fields. Noble Lords will also agree that diversity is important and should be appropriately taken into account in making Lord Norton of Louth: I raise one point that has not these nominations. There will be other essential and been touched on. I have considerable sympathy with desirable criteria which the Committee believes should the substance of paragraph (a), although it may be be met by a person before he or she is put forward for important to stress the desirability that someone has appointment as a nominated commissioner. that background, rather than prescribe it. I also have sympathy with the point made in paragraph (b), although However, I do not think that the best way forward I recognise the problems that have been identified would be to set out these criteria in legislation. Through when you are appointing only one person. The problem Clause 4, we have made it clear that responsibility for I would draw attention to is the relationship between the recruitment and selection process of the electoral the two; it might be a bit depressing to do so, but commissioners lies with the Speaker’s Committee. It paragraph (b) supposes that paragraph (a) encompasses should therefore be a matter, first, for the party leaders, a fairly diverse body of people already. You would and then for the Speaker’s Committee working in have to do a study of those who have actually got the conjunction with the Electoral Commission and relevant experience of the electoral system in this country— stakeholders, to decide the necessary criteria and electoral administrators. It may be that we find that, appropriate candidates for the post of nominated with regard to the diversity to which the noble Lord, commissioner. I have no doubt that party leaders will Lord Tyler, refers, we do not have a very diverse group consider, in putting forward candidates for appointment, from which to draw, which might limit it. There would whether the nominees have the requisite skills, experience be dangers of putting in the Bill, even though it is in and other attributes. very general terms of having regard to. In practical In addition, we have every confidence that the terms, there may be a problem with the relationship Speaker’s Committee will give careful consideration to between the two paragraphs, and therefore a danger in agreeing robust and relevant criteria for the post of putting those two proposals together in the Bill. nominated commissioner. The Speaker’s Committee will no doubt communicate these criteria to registered Lord Tunnicliffe: I thank noble Lords for this interesting party leaders to ensure that they are able to make debate, particularly the story of the conversion of the informed nominations. noble Lord, Lord Tyler, from being an agnostic to a For these reasons, we do not believe that setting supporter of the basic principle. I thank the noble separate criteria in legislation would serve any useful Lord, Lord Henley, for in his careful way of reminding purpose. Doing so would seem to prejudge the outcome us that behind this Bill is consensus. On this clause, I of any consideration that the Speaker’s Committee believe that that consensus is strong. I note that those might want to give as to what the appropriate criteria who participate in the debate all support the basic should be before it has had the chance to consult the principle of nominated commissioners. relevant interests. It would reduce flexibility if there GC 121 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 122 was any desire to change those criteria over time. In We support the clause, but we want to make this addition, it could be misleading, by giving the impression change which is significant to the role of the commission. that it is only these specified criteria which must be We want to make sure that the change is implemented met before a person can be considered for appointment. carefully. I turn to one or two of the points that have The point of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, about the been made. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady committee cutting deals was well made. It is essential Gould, who has long experience, and to have support that it is not that kind of committee. It is important to from her is a consolation to an amateur like me. realise that appointing nominated commissioners does Similarly, I received support from a different perspective not alter the role and functions of the Electoral from the noble Lord, Lord Norton. I do not regard Commission. Nominated commissioners are not intended those who are working for the political system in any to represent political parties and will, as the noble capacity, be it for a party or outwith, as being somehow Lord, Lord Tyler, said, be in a minority. a lesser breed. I do not regard the elected or unelected The terms of office for nominated commissioners politicians—the people who get kicked out—as being will be the same as for other commissioners, the only somehow more experienced—far from it. If I in any difference being that the restriction on political experience way gave the impression that I thought that the people is lifted. Terms of office and other criteria will be set we might seek to have nominated should be party by the Speaker’s Committee. politicians in the traditional sense, I did not intend to. The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked how the That is not the case at all. Indeed, our new paragraph (a) Speaker’s Committee selects members of the Electoral is intended to reflect the need for people working, Commission. In practice, the committee has always perhaps at a grass-roots level, who have never sought recruited electoral commissioners on the basis of open election and are not politicians. competition in accordance with the OCPA principles, I take up the point that the noble Baroness made despite not being bound by statute to do so. about open competition. From what the Minister has The commission’s staff make decisions on penalties, said, we must be clear that these nominees will not be seeking approval of commissioners as appropriate. subjected to the normal process of open competition, Nominated commissioners from the four different parties because of course the party leaders will in the end be will not be in a majority and will be expected to act in the nominators. At the very least, they will be able to a non-partisan way. blackball any potential person who could be nominated The reason that we feel that we need to resist the to this role if they do not think that that is the sort of amendment is, first, the level of consensus that sits person who will reflect the objectives, purposes and behind this part of the Bill and, secondly, that we do partisan interests of that party and that party leader. I not see the value of having criteria in the Bill; we think was glad to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord that the Speaker’s Committee working with party Borrie, on that. leaders and other stakeholders is the appropriate place. On this basis, I hope the noble Lords will agree to We must be absolutely open about this. I am sure withdraw their amendments. that the Minister in his response was clear: this is not comparable to the open selection interview criteria Lord Campbell-Savours: My noble friend said that that are in place for the other non-party commissioners. commissioners are expected to act in “a non-partisan The nominated commissioners are a different breed way”. He did not manage to deal with my question and we have to be clear about that. That is why our about the extent to which commissioners might be amendment and this discussion are relevant and involved in decisions on penalties. If he does not have appropriate. an answer now, can he let the Committee know? I was also grateful for the support of the noble Lord Tunnicliffe: I said, although I may have mumbled Lord, Lord Brooke, for at least half of our amendment. it, that the commission staff make decisions on penalties, However, I take some exception to his reference to seeking the approval of commissioners as appropriate. “cartel”, which has pejorative overtones. I believe that That is a very important point and it would be appropriate it is quite good, occasionally, for parties and party that I consult further and we will either bring it into leaders to work together. I know that it is traditional the debate on Report or I will write to Members of the at the other end of the building that we should multiply Committee. the disagreements; but even there, yesterday, there was agreement between two parties and the Government Lord Tyler: This has been a very useful debate and, were defeated on a Liberal Democrat Motion. We at the very least, it will help to inform all those who should not fool ourselves that it is a bad thing for may take decisions about the new category of politicians occasionally to agree. That happens at this commissioners. I should like briefly to respond to end of the building, too. I do not think that it would some of the points that have been made. First and be a bad thing for party leaders occasionally to sit foremost, like the noble Lord, Lord Henley, I should down and think about the corporate responsibilities of make it absolutely clear that I and my noble friends the Electoral Commission and to try to make sure that very much support the appointment of the new there is a good balance of representation, not just in commissioners. That is not our concern. The concerns terms of party, but in terms of experience. Therefore, I that we are seeking to express in this amendment, resist the idea that if our new paragraph (b), seeking which have been reflected by all sides, are precisely to get a broader diversity, were to be passed, that how those commissioners may operate. I shall come somehow would lead to a cartel. All kinds of areas of back particularly to the point made by the noble Lord, diversity have to be addressed, as has been made clear Lord Campbell-Savours. in the debate, but I do not think this is pinning a tail GC 123 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 124

[LORD TYLER] in a more partisan fashion. There is an issue here and on a donkey, to again quote the noble Lord, Lord we should think about it quite clearly. If the electoral Brooke. Many other things happen in this building commission is going to operate on exactly the same which look much more like that. basis as other commissions, it could be a potential The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised an minefield and we need to address the issue. important issue to which I should have referred at the I do not wish to detain the Grand Committee outset. The Electoral Commission is not like the longer. Important points have been made throughout Committee on Standards in Public Life, where there our debates today which have fully justified our anxiety are, of course, party-political nominees. There will be to take a good look at this issue. It is an important occasions when the body acts not only as an investigator, change in both practice and perception for the commission or at least as a supervising investigator, but as a and I hope that Ministers will at least give further decision-making body on penalties. In such cases, it thought to the best way to handle it before Report. will not be only the party representative of party A We, too, will do that—we will look very carefully at who will be interested in whether or not local party A what has been said on all sides of the Committee—but, is penalised in a particular way; but representatives of in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. party B, party C or even party D will have a direct interest in that decision and that penalty. Amendment 74 withdrawn. If there is a major investigation of a whole party, what do we expect the representatives of parties B, Clause 5 agreed. C and D to do? The representative of party A may well say, “I am going to set this out because my party 1.15 pm is in the dock and is being accused of a major dereliction of duty, an offence under electoral law”, but what about the other three parties? The noble Lord, Lord Clause 6: Number of Electoral Commissioners Campbell-Savours, has raised an important issue about the commission not being like other organisations in Debate on whether Clause 6 should stand part of the which there are party representatives. Bill. Lord Campbell-Savours: My noble friend used the Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I want to intervene key word “approval”. It may well be that a briefly. The Minister could regard this as a probing recommendation comes through, and it is that process question rather than a probing amendment. I notice of approval about which I am concerned. that the number of commissioners can be nine or 10. On the question of withdrawal, in the expenses Since that increases the number of appointed discussion that will now take place in the Committee commissioners from the present situation, it would be on Standards in Public Life, the political representatives helpful to know the Government’s reason for giving are withdrawing from those proceedings. That might themselves that option for the final figure. be an indication of the way we should proceed in this case as well. Lord Tunnicliffe: There are several things that we will need to put in a letter, particularly the delicate Lord Tyler: I am grateful to the noble Lord. We do points that have been raised. We will answer the noble not have that guidance from the Minister. He may feel Lord in the same letter. that it is necessary to give it guidance between now and Report on whether the model is that all four have Clause 6 agreed. to withdraw in such circumstances, or the circumstances in which some other arrangement can be made. I share the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Clause 7: Political restrictions on Electoral The Minister’s response was very helpful and I am Commissioners and staff grateful. He rightly emphasised, and perhaps I should have done so earlier, the role of the Speaker’s Committee. I hope this debate will inform and assist that committee Amendment 75 in considering these issues in future. However, there is Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe room for greater clarity between now and Report. The terms of office issue, which falls under Schedule 1 to 75: Clause 7, page 5, line 30, at end insert— the PPERA, need to be looked at again. For example, “(aa) in relation to appointment to a post on the staff of the Commission that is designated by a notice in force under if an incoming party leader decides that his or her paragraph 11B, the period (immediately preceding the representative inherited from a previous leader is going appointment) specified by the notice;” to be an extremely awkward customer, who has gone native in the Electoral Commission and is now taking a totally dispassionate, non-partisan view when the Lord Tunnicliffe: In moving this amendment, I shall reverse is what the party leader requires, the easiest also speak to Amendments 77 and 78. I have a short, way to deal with that is to say to Joe Bloggs or Joan non-controversial list of amendments to speak to. Bloggs, “Look, I have got a good idea. Why don’t you The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums go into the House of Lords?”. That would remove him Act 2000 imposes a 10-year restriction on previous or her immediately from the commission and then the political activity for all Electoral Commission staff. party leader can put in the favoured trustee to behave Clause 7 of the Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 125 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 126 seeks to reduce the restriction period from 10 years to chief executive is best placed to come to a final decision five years for the commission’s chief executive, and to on what is best for the successful internal working of one year for all other staff. the commission. The chief executive will be required to give notice These government amendments are intended to to the Speaker’s Committee of his intention to designate address the concerns raised by the commission and my a particular post, and the relevant period of restriction noble friend Lady Gould that the five-year restriction for that post. The notice has effect from the day it is should be capable of being extended to other senior received by the Speaker’s Committee and expires after posts in the commission, or those dealing with politically three years, unless the chief executive issues a cancellation sensitive responsibilities. notice or a notice that alters the details contained in Having heard representations on the subject, we the original in the interim. Any notice of cancellation fully acknowledge that there may be a small number of or alteration along these lines is also subject to the posts in the commission, other than the chief executive, duty to consult the Speaker’s Committee before the which merit a requirement for a longer restriction on chief executive can issue the notice in question. recent political activity than one year. It is right that This mechanism strikes a sensible and proportionate we strike an appropriate balance between ensuring balance; empowering the chief executive, as the individual that the commission is able to employ those who have responsible for staffing decisions, to make decisions, the necessary skills to enable it to be more effective, while allowing him to take account of the views of the without creating any perception of politicising the Speaker’s Committee as he sees fit. Amendment 75 commission. states that, in cases where the chief executive has designated a post as subject to a longer restriction The amendment provides flexibility so that the period, this will supersede the one-year restriction. chief executive of the commission can determine the I turn to Amendment 78. Noble Lords will be appropriate restricted period for its staff. Some senior aware that the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums posts may merit a longer restriction period, while Act 2000 imposes a 10-year restriction on previous others will not. Likewise, certain posts, which may not political activity for all Electoral Commission staff. necessarily be classed as senior posts, may indeed Clause 7 reduces the restriction period from 10 years involve politically sensitive responsibilities. The chief to five for the chief executive, and to one year for all executive of the commission will be best placed to other staff—I hope as amended by my previous decide which posts merit a longer restricted period, amendment. and what that period should be. That said, we are keen to ensure that the power provided for here does not The Boundary Committee for England is part of provide the chief executive with unfettered discretion the Electoral Commission. However, the Local when it comes to choosing what post should be designated Democracy, Economic Development and Construction or how long a restriction for a particular post should be. Bill provides for a separate and independent boundary committee in line with the recommendations of the In light of this, government Amendments 75 and 77 Committee on Standards in Public Life. The Bill retains provide the commission’s chief executive with the a 10-year restriction from previous political activity power to designate certain other commission posts as for boundary committee members and staff once the being subject to a restriction period of up to five years. independent body is set up. This mirrors the existing The chief executive may designate a post if he reasonably 10-year restriction for all commission staff. believes that it is necessary to do so in order to Government Amendment 78 seeks to exclude all maintain public confidence in the effectiveness of the Electoral Commission staff dealing with electoral commission in carrying out its functions. In deciding boundary work from the reduced restrictions in Clause 7, the length of the restriction period, the chief executive because it is envisaged that most members of staff will will be required to take into account the level of transfer to the independent boundary committee, which seniority of the post, and how likely it is that any we expect will be set up in April 2010. The commission holder of the post will be required by the post to deal estimates that 20 members of staff will transfer to the with politically sensitive matters. independent boundary committee. Commission staff perform certain functions relating to boundary work These criteria show that we are mindful that the that have been transferred by secondary legislation chief executive should use this power responsibly. To from the Local Government Commission for England. that end, we propose a further check on the discretion These functions include the implementation of provided for here, so this amendment also requires the recommendations for a change in the law made by the chief executive to consult the Speaker’s Committee on boundary committee. the posts that he intends to designate. A duty to consult will mean that any view put forward by the Finally, a small number of staff who currently committee in relation to a proposed designation will assist with this work, albeit not on a full-time basis, have to be taken into account, and taken seriously, by will not transfer over as part of this process. The the chief executive. We believe that the Speaker’s changes made by this amendment relate also to these Committee is an appropriate body to give an independent categories of commission staff during the intervening and objective view on proposed designations, in line period before the boundary committee is set up. with the oversight rule relating to the commission. We The reduction in the restricted period, as proposed considered whether it was appropriate to give the in Clause 7, would be temporary. Removing staff who Speaker’s Committee the right of veto over a particular work on boundary matters from the effect of Clause 7 designation. Ultimately, we took the view that the of the PPE Bill will ensure that the level of political GC 127 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 128

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] hard to know when people will undertake work of a restriction on the appointment of staff remains consistent politically sensitive nature. I am thinking not of senior in the intervening period between the commencement but of younger people, who can be rash—shall we say, of Clause 7 and the creation of the new boundary rash or precipitate in their judgment of how they committee. The commission requested this amendment, might take advantage of the information that they and we agree that taking these steps will help to ensure gain in performance of their duties within the commission? a smooth transition of staff dealing with electoral It might be someone who foolishly believed that he or boundary work before the boundary committee is set she could advance his or her political career by gathering up. I beg to move. information of one sort or another. It may not even be a political career that he or she wants to advance; it Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I have Amendment 76 might be a career in the media, for which the information in this grouping. I begin by apologising to the Committee would be very helpful indeed. Is there not some value for not having been here for the beginning of today’s in having a slightly longer minimum period of quarantine? proceedings. I am therefore patricianly conscious that I know not whether three years—36 months—is the I should not try to plough a furrow that has already right period, but a 12-month quarantine period is been ploughed in previous amendments and particularly quite short. I have no wish to inhibit people developing under Amendment 74 from the noble Lord, Lord their careers, within and without the commission, but Tyler. Some of my foxes have been shot by the Minister there is an argument for having a slightly longer period in his opening remarks, but I have one or two small of quarantine for people who want to work in the foxes still running across the fields, which I should like commission and at the same time have political affiliations. to pursue if I may. My amendment is a probing amendment designed Baroness Gould of Potternewton: First, I should say to raise the minimum period from one to three years in how much I appreciate the fact that the Government which staff of the commission may have been involved have picked up the point that I made in Second previously in political activity. The point was made by Reading about the level of this flexibility for the chief the Government and by many noble Lords from all executive. It is absolutely right that that should happen; sides of the House yesterday and today about the I also think that it is right that they have to have that necessity of maintaining public confidence in the consultation with the Speaker’s Committee, which, at performance of the commission. It will be doubly the end of the day, will no doubt be the body that damaging if, at a time of public cynicism, we set out to takes the decision. I have no doubt that the chief reform and improve the working of the commission executive will listen with care to whatever the Speaker’s and for reasons unforeseen at this stage fail to do so Committee says. I wanted to make that point. because it will be a quantitative uplift in public cynicism as a result. We discussed under an earlier amendment Having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, the mixture of politicians and people who are politically I want to make another point. I accept that if someone active as commissioners in an administrative body, is in a politically sensitive post, obviously it might be and I raised concerns about that during my debate at important that there is a longer term. However, the Second Reading. Obviously, we have seen calls for clause states that in deciding what that period should restraint and a non-partisan view of those who are so be, the chief executive shall take account not only of selected from political parties. the level of seniority of the post, but “how likely it is that any holder of the post will be required to deal I want to check one thing in relation to the with politically sensitive matters”. Government’s Amendment 77—and I think I heard In fact, the clause covers the points that the noble the Minister clearly—in subsection (8) of the new Lord, Lord Hodgson, made. Perhaps I may say again section on the requirement to consult. The Minister how grateful I am and, I am sure, how grateful the seemed to make it clear in his remarks that the ultimate chief executive of the commission is that he will now power in this lies with the chairman of the commission, have the flexibility to— who can discuss the matter with the Speaker’s Committee but in the end, if he decides that the post is politically 1.30 pm sensitive, it is his call and there is no gainsaying it. Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My point was not Lord Tunnicliffe: Did the noble Lord mean to say that someone would be in a politically sensitive role all the chairman of the commission or the chief executive? the time, but that people dip in and out of politically sensitive activities. Junior members of staff will have a Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I think I mean the variety of tasks, perhaps. What I am concerned about chairman, but maybe the chief executive has the final is that if someone obtains access to information on a call. Do either of them have the final call? Perhaps the serendipitous basis, that person would not be the Minister could tell me that. subject of the quarantine order, because the chief Lord Tunnicliffe: The final decision lies with the executive would see it in that way. I was concerned that chief executive under the clause. it may be that some higher basic threshold would be a good idea. Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I am grateful for that—he has the final call. My issue relates to Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I take that point subsection (3) of the new section. It is not about and I understand that it is always possible for someone seniority of posts but the political sensitivity of posts. to use information that they should not use, or whatever, A great range of posts within the commission will be and they do not necessarily have to be someone to politically sensitive at one point or another and it is whom the one-year period applies. It could be that GC 129 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 130 someone has been there three years and still has that to the job. Similarly, I am sad to say that if a young influence. I go back to the point that I do not think person has ambitions to become an investigative journalist, there is an absolute relevance in that and hope that the it will not matter how many years of restriction are chief executive would have the discretion and sense to imposed because that may not have any bearing. That ensure that anyone who has to deal with political person may not have had any political experience but issues has the experience to carry out that role. may be extremely ambitious to join the team of the Sunday Times, to quote just one example. Whatever Lord Campbell-Savours: I completely agree with the the case, I do not think that we should be deluded into noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots. thinking that time is the critical point. However, the noble Lord made a very important point about loyalty Lord Henley: Perhaps I may make one or two brief and commitment in the commission. If we do nothing comments. We are sympathetic to these government else in this Committee and at later stages, we have to amendments, but I ask the Minister to deal with one reinforce that point, if only because, with the appointment or two points. First, can he repeat what seems obvious of the nominated party commissioners, we may look to me: that this affects only the staff of the commission as though we are diluting the issue. and in no way could these amendments at some future stage be used to affect the commissioners in relation to Lord Campbell-Savours: I keep thinking of the Damian new subsection (3)? It would obviously be ridiculous if Green affair, where a civil servant had come straight they began to be appointed by their party leaders. from a political party, gone into a department and They could not be treated as if they were staff and then acted improperly. I worry that the restriction found themselves excluded because of their political period is too short and I think that the Government backgrounds. The noble Lord will obviously have no should consider an additional period in relation to problem in repeating that. employees. Secondly, I agree that it is useful that the chief Lord Tyler: Again, I understand the noble Lord’s executive has the power to vary the period as he wishes point, but whether that individual had been immune and that he should consult the Speaker’s Committee. from direct party-political influence and activity for In the end, the final decision will be that of the chief one year, three years or 10 years is immaterial. I shall executive. I should be grateful if the noble Lord repeated try not to make any generalised comments but it that. I take it, from my reading of the Bill, that the would seem that anyone who takes on a responsible Speaker’s Committee has no veto on the chief executive. position within any administration, as in that case, or No doubt, he or she would take appropriate advice if in an important regulatory body such as this and who the Speaker’s Committee had very strong views about goes in with a partisan view or with partisan ambitions— what he was proposing. a point made very well by the noble Lord, Lord Thirdly, it would be quite useful if the Minister gave Hodgson—is inappropriate for the task. It is a considerably some example of the times when he thought that the difficult question, and it concerns recruitment and chief executive might wish to make use of this power training as well as a check on previous experience. I to vary the period. I have some idea of my own, but I give way. should be grateful if the Government gave their views as to when they thought it likely that the chief executive Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I am extremely might exercise these powers. grateful. The noble Lord raised the question of enforcement. I understand the point about senior Lord Tyler: I wish to make a brief contribution. We, enforcement officers but the enforcement case will be too, see the logic of clarifying these issues and we very heard at quite a junior level. The information and much endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, documents will be put together and the case will be said about the role of the chief executive. It is now assembled not at a senior level but by a series of junior easier to follow and clear. It is also important that the members of the commission. As I understand the drift chief executive knows what the role is and to whom he of what the Minister is saying, some senior people will or she is accountable on this issue. There was quite a be picked out and will probably be given a longer lot of discussion about this at an earlier stage, and I quarantine period. I may be wrong but I do not read in think that this is now probably a sensible consensus the Minister’s comments or body language that we are and compromise. talking about adding to the quarantine period for those who deal with highly sensitive matters at quite a However, it is important that those responsible in junior level. the commission for any form of enforcement are seen as a particular category. It may be that a longer period Lord Tyler: That is a formidable point and it reflects will be necessary for them, not just from a practical the one that I made about enforcement. The commission point of view but, as we have said in debate on other has many other responsibilities but, when it comes to amendments today, from a perception point of view as the specific task of enforcement, I think that the chief well. executive will be well advised to think very carefully I listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord about the so-called period of quarantine. However, Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. I understand his point the marker that I wanted to put down is that we need about quarantine but I fear that, as the noble Baroness to be quite sure that we give guidance to those who set said, the length of time is less important than the out the criteria. I think that we will all have to give that mindset. You could stipulate that people should not matter more thought before Report, and I hope that have been involved in active politics for 15 years but the Minister will do so too. However, whether the the important point is their mindset when they come guidance should be in the form of the time limitations GC 131 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 132

[LORD TYLER] How many people does the Minister think will be in the Bill, I have more doubt. The noble Lord, Lord inhibited from joining the commission because of a Hodgson, made the valid point that we do not want to 12-month ban who would otherwise join at 24 months? see at any level of the commission people given important If we double the period, how many people would that responsibilities that will have a direct relationship on rule out? The balance of risk and reward lies with a how a party, or an individual within a party, is or is longer period. The number of people—including those not the subject of any enforcement. It is an extremely who would make really good commission employees— important point that we should all think about between who would be inhibited because of a 24-month ban as now and Report. It may be that Ministers will find a opposed to a 12-month ban would be infinitesimal. In way of approaching this issue other than through response to the noble Lord’s point about wanting to the Bill. go to the commission within 12 months of leaving a political party, I wonder why someone is going—whatever Lord Tunnicliffe: I have little to add to what I have the party. said but it is important to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, once again, for her input. She answered the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, very well 1.45 pm and has completely stolen what I was going to say. But Baroness Gould of Potternewton: Ihaveaproblem I shall say it again anyway. The issue of political with the last comment. I know many people who are sensitivity is covered by the proposed new sub- interested in that aspect of electoral work and would paragraph (3)(b) in Amendment 77. I take the point want to join the commission. Therefore I do not think made by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that the issue is that the noble Lord’s point is right. I also have a about the kind of people who will be recruited. When problem with timing. However, I accept the point someone who has been politically active becomes a made by my noble friend that we should consider public servant, that individual has to have a change of laying down some criteria. You can be out of a political mind because he is now a public servant. The restrictions, party for one year, five years or 10 years and still want the varying times and so on are meant to help in that, to be involved; it does not mean that you are no longer but it is also about the way people think. involved. You are not active, but you may still have an As to the direct route request, yes this applies only instinct that draws you to a political party. I accept, to the staff of the commission; yes it is correct that the after listening to the discussion, that we must think final decision will be made by the chief executive; and about how we address the points that have been raised. no, I am afraid I do not have any examples at hand. The enforcement point is interesting and we will certainly Lord Tunnicliffe: I have nothing to add at this think on it as a result of today’s debate. point. Lord Campbell-Savours: Perhaps I may put a scenario to my noble friend. This is a real world question. Amendment 75 agreed. Imagine a young socialist in a political party who does his 12 months and then joins the Electoral Commission. Amendment 76 not moved. He is then involved in an inquiry into malpractice in another political party—maybe the Liberal Democrats or the Conservative Party—and has to make a Amendments 77 and 78 recommendation about penalties or is involved in the Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe making of that recommendation. Surely that is utterly wrong and must be avoided at all costs. So we either 77: Clause 7, page 5, line 41, at end insert— have to extend the limits, as proposed in the amendment “11B(1) The chief executive of the Commission may by giving of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, or we have to notice to the Speaker’s Committee— introduce other criteria on the way in which the (a) designate a particular post on the staff of the commission deals with these matters internally. We Commission, and have to do that in the Bill, otherwise we will have (b) specify as the relevant period for that post, for the problems in future. purposes of paragraph 11A(2)(aa), a period of two years or more, Lord Tunnicliffe: Any member of the commission if the chief executive reasonably believes that it is necessary staff doing any task must act impartially. The power in to do so in order to maintain public confidence in the this clause is to give the chief executive a reasonable effectiveness of the Commission in carrying out any of its functions. and proportionate way of ensuring the impartiality that we all seek. The chief executive in his consultations (2) The period specified under sub-paragraph (1)(b) may not be more than five years. will sensitively pick the appropriate post and create a structure that will provide public confidence. Over and (3) In deciding what that period should be, the chief executive of the Commission shall take into account— above that, the essence on which our public life depends is that public officials act impartially in their role of (a) the level of seniority of the post; working to their job descriptions and to the standards (b) how likely it is that any holder of the post will be expected of them. required to deal with politically sensitive matters. (4) Each notice under sub-paragraph (1) must relate to only Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: Perhaps I may one post. press the Minister a little further. There are concerns (5) A notice under sub-paragraph (1)— around this issue and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- (a) has effect from the day on which it is received by the Savours, has given a number of interesting scenarios. Speaker’s Committee, and GC 133 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 134

(b) (subject to sub-paragraphs (6) and (7)) expires at the end required by the Secretary of State, under subsection (2), of the period of three years beginning with that day. to review and submit reports on matters specified by (6) Sub-paragraph (5)(b) does not prevent a further notice the Secretary of State. The reports produced under the being given under sub-paragraph (1) in relation to the post in terms of this section are published in such a manner as question, either— the commission determines. (a) before the previous notice would have expired, or The areas covered are clearly important and relate (b) at any time after the expiry of the previous notice. to the commission’s areas of expertise. However, Section 6 A further notice received by the Speaker’s Committee before is silent about what happens to the reports once they the previous notice would have expired supersedes the have been published. There is no requirement for the previous notice. Secretary of State to have regard to them, or even to (7) If the chief executive of the Commission gives notice (a respond to them. My amendment would ensure that, “cancellation notice”) to the Speaker’s Committee cancelling a notice under sub-paragraph (1), the notice under that sub-paragraph when the commission makes a report to the Secretary ceases to have effect— of State under the provisions of Section 6, the Secretary (a) on the day on which the cancellation notice is received by of State responds in writing within six months of the the Speaker’s Committee, or day of publication of the report. (b) (if later) on such date as may be specified in the The requirement to reply within six months is not cancellation notice. onerous. Ministers seek to reply to Select Committee (8) Before giving a notice under this paragraph the chief reports within two months of publication. In this executive of the Commission shall consult the Speaker’s Committee. House it used to be six months for committees other (9) The Commission shall publish, in such manner as they than the European Union Committee; but the consider appropriate, information setting out the effect of all Government recently agreed that it should be two notices under sub-paragraph (1) that are in force at any particular months for all committee reports. The Government time.”” seek to respond to Law Commission reports within six 78: Clause 7, page 5, line 41, at end insert— months. I have opted for the more generous six-month “( ) The amendment made by subsection (2) does not apply to period. If it is to be a statutory provision, that seems the appointment of a person— appropriate. (a) to assist the Boundary Committee for England in the The second part of the amendment seeks to address performance of its functions, the obvious objection to imposing a statutory time (b) to assist the Commission in carrying out functions limit, namely that it may not always be possible to transferred to them by an order under section 18(1) of provide a substantive response in six months if the the 2000 Act (transfer of functions of Local Government report is highly technical. My proposed new subsection (2) Commission for England), or provides that if the Secretary of State is unable to (c) to perform duties including either or both of those.” respond within six months, he shall inform the Electoral Commission of that fact, and the reasons for it, not Amendments 77 and 78 agreed. later than the day on which the response is due. The provisions of the clause are not unduly onerous; Clause 7, as amended, agreed. indeed, they are open to the objection that they are not tight enough. However, they have the merit of imposing on the Secretary of State a duty to respond Amendment 79 to reports from the Electoral Commission. Such a Moved by Lord Norton of Louth requirement is eminently sensible. It would bring Electoral 79: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause— Commission reports into line with Law Commission reports, and ensure not only that they are taken seriously “Reports of Electoral Commission by the Secretary of State, but are seen to be taken (1) Where the Electoral Commission makes a report to the seriously—an important element of transparency. If Secretary of State under the provisions of section 6 of the 2000 Act, the Secretary of State shall respond in writing within a the commission believes that a matter is of such weight period of six months from the day of the publication of the as to justify a report to the Secretary of State, or if the report. Secretary of State believes that a matter is of sufficient (2) If for any reason the Secretary of State is unable to importance to require a report from the commission, respond within the period stipulated in subsection (1), he shall there should be a requirement on the Secretary of inform the Electoral Commission of that fact, and the reasons for State to provide a written response. The new clause it, no later than the day on which the response was due.” imposes no requirement in terms of content; that must be a matter for the Minister, as is the case with Lord Norton of Louth: The Electoral Commission responses to Select Committee and Law Commission is required by Section 6 of the 2000 Act to keep under reports. All that is required under this clause is that the review and from time to time submit reports to the Secretary of State must reply in writing; I believe that Secretary of State on matters relating to elections, it imposes a useful—indeed, a necessary—discipline. I referendums, the redistribution of seats at parliamentary beg to move. elections, the registration of political parties, the regulation of income and expenditure, political advertising in Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I support the broadcast and other electronic media and the law amendment. It is absolutely right that if, in fact, the relating to these matters. I mention in passing, following Electoral Commission has been asked to do a piece of yesterday’s debate, that the commission is not required work, that response must come. I am not sure whether to report on institutions of government or institutions six months is not a bit too long, but I shall go with the of the European Union. The commission may also be amendment. It is important that responses are received GC 135 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 136

[BARONESS GOULD OF POTTERNEWTON] of seats at parliamentary elections, the registration of while the issue is still timely. If you leave it a year, you political parties and the regulation of their income could have completely forgotten what the issue is and expenditure; and the law relating to these matters. about. To lay this down means that there has to be a As he also told the Committee, the Electoral Commission response. The commission says that usually it does get publishes a significant number of reports. Some reports responses, but there have been occasions when it has make recommendations to government, while some not. That is unacceptable. It is unfortunate, perhaps, if make recommendations for others, such as electoral something needs to go into the Bill to say that that has administrators. A proportion of these reports does to happen, but if that is necessary then so be it. The not make any recommendations at all, so it may not be commission also makes the point that reports should necessary for government to respond to them. be published under Sections 5 and 6 of PPERA. We We note that the Electoral Commission supports should ensure that it covers all those points. this amendment. I have been quick enough to say when it does not support an amendment, so it is only Lord Tyler: We, too, very much support this fair to say when it does—although I am hardly surprised amendment, along similar lines to the noble Baroness. and understand absolutely its reasons for doing so, I am not sure whether it is not that the present given where it sits. However, I hope that noble Lords reporting regime has been inadequate as regards what will take the point that pressures on government time the commission has or has not been doing, or whether are significant and it is important that issues are it is the response that the Secretary of State has or has prioritised. It could create a real burden on government not made in a timely fashion that is at the centre or resources if we were compelled to respond to all core of the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, reports within six months of their issue, irrespective of Lord Norton of Louth. Either way, this is obviously their subject matter. Moreover, depending on the nature an extremely helpful self-discipline, which otherwise is of the issues covered by a particular report, requiring not really dealt with under Section 6 of the 2000 Act. a response in every case within six months could The reviews set out under that section are very important; prejudice government’s ability to consider the issues these are not trivial issues and, as the noble Baroness fully or engage with other stakeholders. I am sure that has said, leaving them too long unreported or unresponded we can all agree that a fully considered response to a to by the responsible Secretary of State would seem to report that requires a response will be of more benefit leave a nagging doubt on whether action is being than a response that is prompt but is less detailed in its taken on important issues. analysis. We warmly support the amendments and hope that However, I am obliged to oppose the amendment the Minister will be prepared to take them on board on a more basic and fundamental ground— either now or at Report in some other format, if that becomes essential. Either way, a bit of tightening up and tidying up is very timely. Lord Campbell-Savours: Under subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, I presume that the Government Lord Campbell-Savours: I shall be brief but perhaps could reply and say that they needed more time. I do marginally more controversial. I completely support not think that it would take up immense resources the amendment, although perhaps not for the reasons within the department to send out a letter of that that the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, might nature. appreciate. Sometimes the commission produces reports that are politically very inconvenient; they just do not Lord Bach: But what an added piece of bureaucracy suit the debate of the times. One particular report that to have to respond within six months. It is small but I recall is the one it produced on individual registration, significant, I would suggest. to which I am utterly hostile. It might in a few years’ time produce a report on electoral registration that shows that government policy is not being realised, Noble Lords: Oh! which might suit the Government of that time, who might wish simply to ignore it and not respond positively Lord Bach: I am very surprised that the Committee to any recommendations that it might make that would is seriously proposing that we should add to, rather lead to an increase in electoral registration. In wanting than take away from, bureaucracy. to avoid the potential political inconvenience, I strongly support the amendment. Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: In the briefing which the commission has given us for this amendment, Lord Bach: The amendment would require the there is an indication that there have been occasions Secretary of State to provide a written response to when the Government have not replied at all. If you reports issued by the Electoral Commission under do not have a deadline, how will the Government be Section 6 of PPERA within six months of publication. prompted into action? If the Secretary of State is unable to respond within that time frame, the amendment requires the Secretary of State to provide the commission with reasons no Lord Bach: There are some commission reports to later than the six-month deadline. which it is not necessary for the Government to respond. The noble Lord was good enough to remind us what Section 6 said. It enables the Electoral Commission Lord Tyler: But surely in such circumstances all the to submit reports to the Secretary of State on various Secretary of State has to do is to say, “This report does matters, including elections, referendums, the redistribution not relate to the responsibilities of Government; it GC 137 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 138 relates to the responsibilities of the electoral registration I remind the Committee that the department and officers”—or whatever. “No comment”. That is a the Government have a good relationship with the response which would fall neatly within the terms of commission. Officials and Ministers regularly engage the noble Lord’s amendment. If that is adding to with it on issues of mutual concern and interest. bureaucracy, I pity the Minister and his department. Indeed, I met the commission’s chairman and some of its senior officials yesterday morning. We take the Lord Bach: Perhaps I could go on to what I considered commission’s views and recommendations very seriously, my strongest point, which is that such a shift risks but we do not believe that an amendment along these seriously moving the initiative in setting policy away lines is necessary—we think that the system works from government and towards an independent regulator. pretty well at present. That would be damaging to both government and to Lord Norton of Louth: I am tempted to ask the the commission. I shall rely on what the Committee on Minister whether he recognises that he is speaking out Standards in Public Life said in its 2007 report, which loud. I am very grateful to all Members of the Committee we talked about yesterday. It said that the Government who have spoken in support of the amendment. The should lead the development of policy on electoral Minister will have noticed that he is somewhat isolated matters. The committee recommended that: on the issue—he is in a minority of two, with support “The Electoral Commission should no longer have a role in from his fellow Minister—and that, so far as I can undertaking policy development in relation to electoral legislation. This function should be the responsibility of the appropriate determine, his arguments did not seem to persuade the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs”— rest of the Committee. as it then was. The commission is a source of expertise Lord Bach: I cannot help but have heard the strong and it is right that it shares it and offers its view to arguments around the Committee on this issue. Although government. But to allow the publication of commission I have argued a case which I consider has some merit, I reports to dictate the focus of government policy think that in these circumstances it is incumbent on making by requiring a policy decision to be taken one the Government to think again about the noble Lord’s way or another in response to their recommendations amendment. I give no promise or guarantee at all that is handing the initiative to the commission in a way we will come back to the noble Lord with a positive that is wrong under our system, in which the elected answer but I tell him and the Committee that we will Government of the day, whoever that might be, set the think again about this issue. agenda. I argue that the Government should be allowed the Lord Norton of Louth: I am grateful for the Minister’s flexibility to respond to commission reports as they response. He has listened to the Committee. I think it see fit within what they consider to be an appropriate is worth reiterating the point that I made, which has timescale, taking account of the subject of the report been supported elsewhere. The requirement to respond and other priorities. There may be circumstances when has no bearing on the content of the Minister’s response. the Government feel able, and consider it appropriate, It is up to the Minister to determine how to respond, to respond relatively quickly. In other cases, they may and therefore he is not being required to give a substantive require a longer period to consider the recommendations response on policy.The six-month requirement is covered of the report fully before making any decisions, either by the second part of the proposed new clause, which because of the nature of the report or due to other allows the Minister to say, “I require more time”, if political issues. Therefore, we believe that a time limit that is necessary, but at least then the commission will of six months is inflexible. be clear on that. Therefore, there is flexibility on the part of the Minister; the amendment merely requires 2pm his response. Perhaps I may use one example to make my case. The other point to stress is transparency. To some The commission’s September 2008 report on electoral extent, the Minister spoke as though the commission administration structures is a useful case study. It reports were not published, but they are. It is for the called, among other things, for the establishment of Minister to respond but what that response is is entirely regional electoral management boards chaired by at the Minister’s discretion. The amendment does not prominent local administrators and backed by statutory tie the Minister’s hands except in ensuring that there is powers of direction. The commission’s proposal has a response, which from the commission’s point of had a mixed response and, given that similar powers view, given the seriousness of the issues with which it of direction already exist for the 12 regional returning deals and the amount of work that it does, is important. officers for this June’s European elections, the Government On some issues, the department can say, “This is not a have decided to wait to see how effective the power of matter for us”, but I think that it is an important direction proves to be in that context so that we can discipline and therefore I am very grateful for what the take account of that important evidence. Therefore, it Minister has just said. In the mean time, I beg leave to is difficult to see what purpose would have been served withdraw the amendment. by requiring a government response in March 2009 Amendment 79 withdrawn. when that data would not have been available. In case there is any misunderstanding, we entirely Lord Tunnicliffe: This may be a convenient point support the view that considering commission reports for the Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes. fully is important. Often, a formal response will be 2.05 pm required within an appropriate timescale, but the timescale will vary according to the nature of the report. Sitting suspended. GC 139 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 140

2.15 pm declaration requirement mirroring the differential reporting threshold set out elsewhere in the 2000 Act, declarations will be required only for donations for the purpose of Clause 8: Declaration as to source of donation Clause 8 in respect of donations above £7,500. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham It should not be inferred from this change that the and Vaux): If Amendment 80 is agreed, I cannot call declaration is not of value, nor that the smaller donations Amendment 81 because of pre-emption. need not comply with the same rigorous transparency requirements. The declaration requirement will help to shine a light on the true source of the most significant Amendment 80 political donations by focusing the minds of those Moved by Lord Bach claiming to make the donation and those who are in receipt. Importantly, this will ensure that donors 80: Clause 8, page 6, line 6, leave out from “£7,500,” to “the” understand the legal requirements relating to permissible in line 7 donors. Additionally, it will reduce the scope for donors to claim ignorance of the law, put in place by the 2000 Lord Bach: In moving Amendment 80, I shall speak Act, which seeks to ensure disclosure of the identity of also to Amendments 85, 91, 93 and 95, which propose the individual or body that is regarded by the Act as altering Clause 8 so that a declaration as to the source being the “true” donor. of the donation is required only for donations above Rather, the amendment before us today recognises £7,500, whatever the nature of the body receiving it. the concern that the burden of reporting can be high, Currently, a declaration would be required for all and seeks to address this concern in a way that is least donations above the reporting thresholds—£1,500 and damaging to transparency and thus to public confidence. £7,500 depending on the recipient. I hope that this approach will gain the support of the We support this proposal as a means to reduce the Committee. I beg to move Amendment 80. burden of compliance with the 2000 Act. This is effectively an alternative to the Opposition’s proposal to increase the local reporting threshold, which is Lord Henley: I am grateful to the Minister for currently set at £1,500 in the Bill. While that would speaking to the government amendments and for touching undoubtedly reduce the burden of compliance, it would on our Amendment 85, which the Government have have an impact on transparency and, as such, we have also supported. Having heard his explanation, we decided that an increase in the threshold in Clause 8 is accept the government amendments, which shows the preferable. If it were ever moved, we would be bound value of seeking consensus and cross-party support to resist opposition Amendment 111. I note that the for the various parts of the Bill. Having said that we Electoral Commission opposes that amendment for accept the government amendments, I make it clear similar reasons. that I will not move my Amendments 81, 86, 92, 94, 96 and 111. However, I will take the opportunity to Balancing the importance of transparency and move Amendment 85, in my name and that of my encouraging compliance with the reporting requirements noble friend Lord Bates, because I am buoyed up by of the 2000 Act with the twin, and also important, the presence of the Minister’s name on the amendment. objective of minimising the regulatory burden of I shall therefore move that amendment and trust that I compliance is a delicate act. First and foremost, it is will have the Government’s support. the Government’s belief that transparency and effective regulation are vital to public confidence in the probity of our democratic and electoral systems: an objective Lord Tyler: There was a moment of considerable to which all in this Committee would subscribe. But concern in my mind because I was anxious that we that is not to say that we are not sympathetic to the should not proceed to look at Amendment 86, which concerns expressed here and in another place about would be a retrograde step. However, I am quite happy the challenge of compliance with the reporting with Amendment 85. requirements set out in the 2000 Act. My right honourable The government amendments are helpful and will friend the Secretary of State said that compliance is result in a relaxation of the process, not in the sense of key to supporting the effectiveness of, and public making life easy but by avoiding unnecessary burden. confidence in, the regime: it is not intended as a That should be an important subtext of all our purposes challenge in its own right. in considering the Bill in Committee. I am delighted to We therefore agreed that, to balance the additional hear that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has decided requirements in the Bill which are intended to increase not to move the amendments to which he referred the transparency and regulation of political party because it would have been an unfortunate step to finance, we would in parallel support a measure to take. There was quite a lot of discussion at an earlier reduce the burden of compliance. Doing so by further stage about the thresholds for this purpose. I think we increasing the thresholds for reporting donations was have got it about right. Clearly it will have to be one option we considered, but concerns have been reviewed over the years because life moves on. Even expressed that that would reduce the public transparency now, when we have nil inflation, we assume that it will of political funding, and such a step might be detrimental eventually return. As we understand it, the mechanism to public confidence. That is why we have instead is there for that. If it is not, it can be dealt with by supported this proposal, which increases the level secondary legislation. In the mean time, we welcome above which a declaration is required, stating whether the amendments and hope that we will make some or not a donation is the donor’s own. Instead of the progress together, as a Committee, in this direction. GC 141 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 142

Lord Bach: I am grateful to both noble Lords for majority of the Commons would have supported the supporting this part of the Bill and the government amendment. He is convinced that in a Division in the amendments. We, in our turn, will support Amendment 85. Commons, these amendments will go through. I Indeed, my name is attached to the noble Lord’s bring these amendments to your Lordships’ House amendment. As to the point made by the noble Lord, because the Commons was, under the programme Lord Tyler, about keeping the threshold under review, in procedure, denied the opportunity to debate and vote due course we will come to government Amendment 112, on these matters, and we should give them that which I hope does that in a satisfactory way. opportunity; and because of the merits of the amendments. Amendment 80 agreed. The question is simple. Why should a person who does not pay tax in the United Kingdom, or is not Amendment 81 not moved. liable to tax on their earnings in the United Kingdom, be denied the right to influence the election of the Government by making a substantial political donation? Amendment 82 The answer is because, as individual citizens, we collectively Moved by Lord Campbell-Savours pay our taxes in the belief that, having paid them, we 82: Clause 8, page 6, line 8, at end insert— have the right to influence how they are used. The payment of, and liability for, tax gives us and not “(1A) In section 54 of the 2000 Act (permissible donors), in subsection (2)(a) after “register” there is inserted “who is resident others the right to decide. It is our money, not theirs. It in the United Kingdom for the purposes of Part 14 of the Income is for us to decide which Government should be in Tax Act 2007 and is not a non-domiciled United Kingdom place to spend the money raised from us as citizens resident”.” through taxation. Those who are not liable to taxation are not entitled, through the use of their money, to Lord Campbell-Savours: I am afraid that I shall influence the Government that is in place to decide spend a little more time on this amendment. I have how our taxes are spent. Why should a person who is tried to be brief on other matters to which I have not liable for tax in the United Kingdom influence the referred in Committee, but this is a very controversial use of taxpayers’ money paid by those who are liable area and the debate we are now having will be followed for tax? closely in the House of Commons, whence these I will exaggerate to make my point. If a Hungarian amendments originally came. billionaire philanthropist, entrepreneur, oligarch, public This is an extremely important amendment which benefactor—whatever you want to call him or her— seeks to deal, in part, with a Linton loophole—that is, acquires British residency, buys a home in London, a loophole that has been identified by Martin Linton spends most of his or her time abroad, refuses to make during his considerable work on these matters over the himself or herself liable for tax in the United Kingdom past 20 years. These two amendments were originally and then offers a political party a £10 million donation, tabled in the House of Commons and were supported should a UK political party be permitted to accept it? by 216 Members. They were probably among the The public would be appalled, the political party highest signature-endorsed amendments ever produced would be discredited and Parliament’s credibility would in the Commons. Yet, for all sorts of reasons that I be further undermined. hesitate to go into in detail during proceedings in this As I understand it, that can happen under the law Committee, the matter was not debated in the as it stands. The argument therefore turns on where we Commons. Amendments 84 and 85, to which there draw the line. What does the Prentice amendment do? were 216 signatories, were tabled by Mr Prentice and It would make it unlawful for any person who is not a constituted the fourth group of amendments scheduled UK resident for tax purposes and is not a non-domicile for debate out of a total of six on day two of UK resident to make a substantial donation to a proceedings on the Bill. The House had from 3.40 pm political party. The higher limit of donations would be to deal with all six groups, and had to complete its defined in law. consideration by 7 pm. That left three hours and 20 minutes to deal with these highly controversial areas of the Bill. The first three areas included limits 2.30 pm on donations, caps on donations and unincorporated The amendment is based on a simple principle: if associations. Consideration of this group began at you want to donate, you have to be liable to tax. Of 5.20 pm and was interrupted at 7 pm under the course, there are limitations on that. If a person is not programme Motion governing Report stage—that was ordinarily resident, they are liable for tax only on the amendment before this amendment could be called, income which arises in the United Kingdom and only a with the result was that there was no debate in the person who can spend 183 or more days in the UK is a House of Commons. UK resident under the six-month rule. Also, someone Mr Prentice asked me whether I would move the will be regarded as a resident if they come to the amendments in this House, and I agreed. His argument United Kingdom regularly and after four tax years is simple. He says: “We in the Commons were denied they visit during those years on an average of 91 days the opportunity to discuss these matters, and we now or more a year. I am sure that if I am wrong rely on you in the House of Lords to give us in the legally on these matters, I will be corrected, but I have Commons the opportunity to deal with these matters”. tried to source that material as accurately as I can. If I He goes on to say that if the pay-roll vote had been need to be corrected on the detail, then others should free to add their signatures to this amendment, a do so. GC 143 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 144

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] Finally, I turn to the response of the Government We do know that these non-UK taxpayers can have on these matters. They have circulated a document. I a huge impact on the outcome of general elections. As do not know how widely it was circulated, but it was the Rowntree report published last year, Purity of sent to Members of Parliament in the House of Elections in the United Kingdom Causes: for Concern, Commons, certainly to Labour MPs, and perhaps states: even wider. However, I shall place it on the record “There is substantial evidence to suggest that money could because it is it is in the public interest. It is headed: have a powerful impact on the outcome of general elections, “Tax status and donations: Gordon Prentice amendments. particularly where targeted at marginal constituencies over sustained Two amendments have been tabled by Gordon Prentice MP to periods of time”. make political donations from individuals who do not pay full I will not get into the names of people or even the UK tax illegal … there are a number of practical problems”. parties involved because that is irrelevant to this debate, Paragraph 1 states: but one noble Lord who lives offshore refuses to make “The amendments would not prevent non-UK taxpayer donations. himself liable to tax in the United Kingdom. He The amendments as tabled would not in practice prevent converted a £3 million loan into a gift to a political political donations from non-UK taxpayers, as they could use party and then went on to donate a further £100,000 other routes—such as companies or unincorporated associations—to to that party and an additional £30,000 to a mayoral pass on funds … These amendments would not affect company election campaign. Do we really believe that that is donations”. acceptable? As the Electoral Commission, which has My response to that is very simple. Why do the got it right for once said: Government—presumably the Government were behind “The permissibility requirements in the 2000 Act are intended the document that I am now reading—table amendments to ensure that only people and organisations with a close relationship to deal with the deficiencies in that area of these to the UK can donate to political parties. It is for Parliament to amendments? I invite my noble friend to consider with decide if this is appropriate”. his officials and other Ministers in the department That is precisely what we are doing with this amendment. whether it would be possible to table amendments on In a spirit of frankness, I should say that the Report to deal with the deficiencies identified. Electoral Commission has allegedly expressed some I had a conversation with the Justice Secretary reservations over the workability and proportionality Mr Jack Straw about the matters raised in the next of the Prentice amendment. But the enlightened paragraph and he raised exactly these issues with me. Mr Prentice has considered its reservations and come Paragraph 2 states: up with a solution to the problems. He suggests that a donor simply ticks a box on his or her tax return and “The amendments would create an anomaly in rules regarding democratic participation. The amendments would allow a non-UK then the Electoral Commission needs only to certify taxpayer to stand for election, collect and receive political donations, with the Inland Revenue that that is the case—that a vote in elections and potentially sit in a democratically elected ticked tax return has been received. I cannot see how body. But the same individual would be barred from donating such a simple solution can be described as disproportional, money—even to their own campaign. There is no coherent reason particularly when such a donation could influence the for this discrepancy,”— result of a general election. Some people believe that say the Labour Government— such donations have influenced the results of general “and indeed such a move would be open to legal challenge on the elections. Of course, it would apply only when donations grounds of unjustifiable difference of treatment. If there is a exceeded a threshold laid down in regulation. desire to tackle the residence and tax status of donors, it is I now draw the attention of the Committee to a preferable to do so in a broader context”. letter from the House of Lords Appointments That is an interesting phrase. The document continues: Commission to Mr Tony Wright, chairman of the “Tackling the issue in a broader way means that any risk of legal Public Administration Committee, announcing changes challenge would be minimised”. to the selection criteria for Peers of the realm. It states: So why do we not do that? Why do we not table an “I am writing to notify you of a slight strengthening of the selection criteria which the Appointments Commission will in amendment on Report that tackles the matter in a future use when assessing nominees for non-party-political peerages. broader way to deal with the concerns expressed in The Commission has agreed these changes as part of its review of paragraph 2 of this document which has been circulated policies and procedures and in the light of experience”. on behalf of the Labour Government—my party in A copy of the press notice is then attached which Government? states: Paragraph 3 states: “The Commission also wants to strengthen the existing “The amendments would be impractical and burdensome. An requirement that a nominee should be resident in the UK for tax additional reason for opposing the amendment is that, as things purposes, and be willing to confirm his or her acceptance of the currently stand, it would be very difficult to deliver in practice. requirement to remain so. This strengthening will also be reflected This is particularly the case given the concerns surrounding in our vetting criteria for future party-political and other nominations confidentiality of tax data and the fact that such data are not for peerages”. readily verifiable (ascertaining whether a person is resident in the Surely, if the appointment to the Lords requires UK UK for tax purposes would in most cases require a specific residency for tax purposes and a liability to tax within investigation). Whereas at present political parties can fulfil their the United Kingdom, it must follow that donations of compliance duty to check that an individual is on the electoral roll, or a company is registered at Companies House, by consulting millions of pounds to political parties, which could public records—obliging parties to check the tax/residence status influence whole general elections—elections to the of donors would be an impossible task. Tax records are not public elected House, the House of Commons—must at the documents and in any event there is no single record of individuals’ least have the same tax liability requirements. tax status”. GC 145 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 146

We are not asking the public to have access; we are addressed, the better. It is not going to be retrospective, asking the Electoral Commission to go to the Revenue but the lessons of the past should be informing us for to check whether it would be compliant with the law in the future. the event that it were to be incorporated in the law in We, too, believe that it is a matter of principle that the way that I suggest in the amendments. those whose commitment to the United Kingdom This opens up the further question of what would stops short of making a substantial contribution to its happen if a party was shown to have accepted an economy through their tax should not be put in a impermissible donation some time after the event. It privileged position. It is surely the greatest irony that would presumably be required to pay the money back, you can save a bit of money by being a tax exile, and despite never having been able to verify whether the then you can use it to invest in the United Kingdom donation was permissible in the first place. Such a political parties to try to reduce the tax burden, perhaps, scenario would undermine the confidence of political on non-doms. It is extremely important that we find parties, as well as the public, in the regulatory system. ways to deal with this issue. To me, tax is the rent we I would have thought that it would concentrate the pay to live in a civilised society. It is part of being a minds of parties, that they would want to be sure that citizen of the United Kingdom or any other democracy. it was a permissible donor donating the money, and The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, referred that it was within the law. It would probably make the to the Rowntree report. I do not intend to follow him parties extra diligent. I know that the Liberal Party, in detail, but I drew that report to the attention of the for a period, had some difficulties in this area and, on House in a Question some months ago. We are still reflection, I am sure that it regretted what happened. awaiting a considered response from the Government But the point is that it must have concentrated its to that extremely important report, which raised very mind so that in the future it would not find itself in substantial issues about the way in which the political that difficulty again, as indeed is the case. We have all system is seen and the extent to which individuals in learnt from what happened over the Liberal experience. our society feel disenchanted and disengaged from the Let us tighten up the law in the way I am suggesting political system, because of the power of money—not because we can make it work. least in terms of the power of foreign money. I say to my noble friends, I do not know where this The noble Lord referred to the views of the Electoral document came from, but it must have something to Commission and I take seriously the fact that it recognises do with the Government. It is a criticism of the the purpose of what we are seeking to achieve, but has amendment and it certainly did not come from the some concerns about its application. It is clearly a Conservative Party. On the basis of the document here problem that it is impossible for any regulatory body and the reservations expressed, why do we not table to take a retrospective view of. Were they a tax exile amendments on Report that deal with all these matters last year or are they a tax exile this year? However, and then deal with the concerns expressed by 216 Members ways can be found around that. If there is a practical of Parliament of all political persuasions, not including way, as the noble Lord said, for the Appointments the payroll vote? If this House carries the amendment Commission to look at this issue in relation to nominations when finally we divide on it—as we will do on the Floor to this House, and if that is seen to be a perfectly legal, of the House—the House of Commons will have the unchallengeable way to assess the tax status of an opportunity of deciding on something that it wants to individual, why, for goodness’ sake can that not be decide on. I believe that it is the function of the House used in the same way? of Lords to give it every opportunity to do so. I beg to move. There are two subsidiary issues to which the noble Lord has not referred. As he pointed out, small donations might well fall outside this particular restriction, for Lord Tyler: I and my noble friend Lord Rennard reasons that we all understand. However, as I understand have added our names to Amendments 82 and 84 for a it from the briefing that was repeated to me from the number of reasons. I shall, as briefly as possible, add Electoral Commission, which I received before Second to what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, has Reading, if each individual donation is £1 less than already said and try to emphasise one or two additional the threshold, and the donation is made at that level points. every week of the year and goes, in aggregate, way First, I entirely endorse what he says about the over the top of the threshold, it would not be caught in extent of support within the House of Commons and terms of reporting and checking the origin of those the totally inadequate lack of attention to this issue donations. That cannot be right. I had hoped that because of the way in which the legislation was so-called having raised this at Second Reading the Minister and “programmed”. Old-fashioned politicians like me used his team would have found a way of closing what is, at to think of it as guillotining. The only point on which least apparently, a loophole. If it is an apparent loophole I differ from the noble Lord is that I think it was for the Electoral Commission, it must surely be one 218 members who signed the amendment; a very that we should take very seriously, because it would be substantial number. crazy if the aggregate donation over the full 365 days To pick up on one extremely important point that of the year turned out to be dramatically more than the noble Lord made towards the end of his speech, Parliament and government intend in terms of the all parties would benefit from this situation being threshold. I hope that the noble Lord can respond to sorted out. What happened in the past has gone; we that in particular. As I have said, I raised that at have all had unfortunate experiences in this field; Second Reading; I did not receive an answer then and the sooner this issue is cleaned up and it becomes I was hopeful that we would have received a substantial absolutely apparent to the public that it has been amendment to deal with it now. GC 147 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 148

[LORD TYLER] that some such means could be found to do it. If the On the other question to which I should like to noble Lord wishes to have a comprehensive cap, it draw attention, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, must be not just on individuals but on individuals, mentioned the question of companies that might be in firms and trade unions—the noble Lord has to accept the control of an otherwise impermissible donor. The that. answer to that is of course in Amendment 89, to which Thirdly, I go back to the point on which he quoted he may care to add his name, in the name of my noble the Justice Secretary. Confidentiality is very important friend Lord Rennard and myself, and in Amendment 90. in relation to individuals’ relations with Her Majesty’s Both amendments deal with this issue. We will come Revenue & Customs. I understand that HM Revenue to them in due course, but it is not impossible to deal & Customs currently has no power to release data of with that perfectly justified point. We do not want a this kind to other bodies, because of confidentiality. way whereby particular donors are excluded as individuals, but they find a route round that simply by having a Lord Tyler: I am listening with great interest to the company which enables them to make donations in a noble Lord, but does he accept that that principle has way that would be illegitimate in terms of the amendment been blown to smithereens by the Appointments and, I hope, the eventual legislation that we pass. Commission for this House, which is presumably given We have a great deal of sympathy with the points access to that precise information? that have been raised, not just by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, but by a huge number of others Lord Henley: It might have been blown to smithereens outwith politics. These are not just political animals on that one point but it still exists here. It is a valid saying that this system is being cheated, it is of a real point that has to be borne in mind. concern to the interested public, and that was very I go back to my first and second points, which are apparent from the Rowntree report. We hope that the the more important. We need a consensus and, if the Minister, even if he cannot do so today, will recognise noble Lord’s real concern is the disproportionate influence the strength of feeling among Members of both Houses— coming from individual donors, the route that he and rightly so, because the present situation is not should look at is a cap on donations, which must affect sustainable, and the public knows it is not sustainable. all bodies and not just individuals. The public believes that it is yet one more reason why we have what is now being referred to as a reputational Lord Pearson of Rannoch: As a fundraiser for the crisis in Parliament. UK Independence Party, I find these amendments inconvenient. However, I also find them largely persuasive. Lord Henley: The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, At Second Reading, I asked the question raised by the will not be surprised to learn that he does not have my noble Lord, Lord Tyler, about the possibility of a support on his amendments. I shall be relatively brief large number of cumulative donations of £7,499 coming in dealing with the arguments that he put at considerable in by standing order. That is not a problem that the length, but there are three important points to make. Committee has resolved, and it is clearly unacceptable. First, and I think that the Minister would agree Perhaps I may ask the noble Lords, Lord Campbell- with me, these are matters where we should proceed by Savours and Lord Tyler, one or two questions. Under consensus. The parts of this Bill that are working best these amendments, what would be the position of are those where consensus has come into it, as the a UK-resident taxpayer donating through an Minister acknowledged earlier. Secondly, we already unincorporated UK association? Have they thought have strict rules which deal with controlling who can of that? I refer to a genuine UK-resident taxpayer, and cannot donate to political parties. If there is a from whom a donation is currently permissible. Under concern about large donors having a disproportionate the amendment, would that situation continue to apply? influence on the political process, which is in effect Secondly, I did not want to come here as the usual what the noble Lord is worried about, that is a matter Euro-bore that I am in your Lordships’ House, but I that in my party’s belief should be addressed by a ask the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, whether comprehensive cap on donations. That, as the noble he has thought about European law with regard to the Lord is well aware, would have to affect not only firms amendment. I may be wrong but, as I understand it, and individuals but also the trade unions. If the noble under European law, European Union companies and Lord was prepared to go down that route, he might individuals are able to donate in this country in a way find that some consensus was possible, but I suspect that companies and individuals from outside the European that he and the Government would not like to see their Union are not. I apologise if I am setting off a false political masters, the trade unions, denied making the hare but it is an area that the noble Lord should think contribution that they wish to make to their party. about, especially as we go forward. I do not mind betting that if it is not law at the moment, it will be Lord Campbell-Savours: How would we manage to fairly soon. Those are my two questions. regulate a multiplicity of £50,000 donations coming in On the subject of trade unions, which I do not from some obscure part of the world? suppose will be popular with—

Lord Henley: That is not a matter for me to address Lord Campbell-Savours: Perhaps I may intervene. at this stage. I noted what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, As Ministers would say, “It is not in my brief to reply said about a whole series of individual donations on issues of European law”, so I cannot answer the coming in in different weeks. If we could reach an noble Lord’s question, although I will ask those who agreement on a comprehensive cap, I have no doubt brief me to consider the matter and give him an GC 149 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 150 answer. The question of unincorporated organisations fully resident for UK tax purposes as a better test of is dealt with in the Bill. I understand that they are being allowed to donate to a political party than the subject to new restrictions. present test of whether the donor happens to be on the electoral roll? Alternatively, would he require both Lord Pearson of Rannoch: In that case, I was not conditions or has he not yet thought about it? sufficiently familiar with the Bill. I hope not to irritate my erstwhile Conservative friends too much, but a Lord Campbell-Savours: My proposal provides for trade union is a collective of British resident taxpayers a stronger threshold than simply being on the electoral and therefore I cannot see why it would not fall within roll. the ambit of the amendment. Nevertheless, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and the Front Benches generally can reach agreement on this matter. Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I do not think I look forward to the answer on my European point that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, would and support these amendments in general. regard it as a betrayal of a confidence if I said that he and I had a short conversation during the 10-minute Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I recognise the interval while we were waiting in the queue to get powerful, if emotional, appeal made by the noble some food. I complimented him on the fact that he Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Some aspects of what was participating in this Committee and was here the he is thinking about are more complicated than they whole time, and I thought that the Committee gained first appear. I am not sure that membership of your enormously from his doing so. He reminded me that Lordships’ House is a good comparator with the he periodically moved amendments which, to borrow ability to vote. He prayed in aid the new Appointments the language of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Commission procedures. It seems to me that, when Rannoch, I might find inconvenient. I said it was appointing one of 750 members of a legislature, you perfectly true that I had had quite a lot of those, not will have a higher, or different, standard than for only in business such as this but also in business someone who will be one of 50 million voters, because relating to the City of Westminster. the influence is much greater. I want to make two generic points about the opening There are two practical points for the noble Lord to speech of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. bear in mind. The first is that we recognise that a large The first, I remark in passing, relates to parliamentary proportion of our population—often the most talented procedure. I totally understand the unhappiness about part—may serve overseas for a period of time. I lived the inability of the Commons to debate and vote on in the United States for five years, and so do many the issue that we are discussing now. However, when I other people. In your period of overseas service, you was a Whip in the Government between 1979 and may cease to be resident for tax purposes in the United 1983, on no less than three occasions we sat for Kingdom. Those people who intend to return to the between 100 and 135 hours and did not guillotine the United Kingdom should not in those circumstances Bill; in other words, we did what the House of Lords be precluded from participating in our elections. That does—we looked at absolutely the whole Bill. I recognise is recognised by the fact that you can continue to vote that in the ensuing 20 years Governments have found if you live overseas for 15 years—it used to be 20 years—by that pattern of behaviour inconvenient, and of course remaining on the register here. The noble Lord should the right to guillotine was always available to us, had address that issue. we chosen to use it. However, it is slightly disingenuous of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, to complain The second point is the question of residency and about the outcome in the House of Commons when it domicile for tax purposes. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, is the Government that he supported in the House of and I were in this Room on Tuesday afternoon discussing Commons who introduced programming that I personally perpetuities and accumulations. Residence and domicile consider to be a flagrant interference with the right of for tax purposes is almost as complicated as perpetuities the elected House. I think that the noble Lord wants to and accumulations. The simple issue of being resident interrupt me. for tax purposes is not a permanent state; you may drop in and out of being resident for tax purposes along the way. Therefore, I am not sure that his case Lord Campbell-Savours: If I had still been in the will work in a practical way. elected House, I would have voted against it and I do not wish to sound as though I am trying to spoken against it with passion. deride every proposal. I hope that when we get to Amendment 108, which talks about a cap on donations and provides a blanket answer to the particular problem Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I have no difficulty that he proposes, the noble Lord will be prepared to at all in recognising that fact. It is obviously worth speak in favour of it as being at least a halfway house referring to in the context of how this amendment has to what he is seeking to achieve here. arrived here but I do not think that it can be blamed on the Official Opposition. Fortunately, scrutiny in the House of Lords is automatically available. It is one of 3pm the glories of the House of Lords that that is so. I do Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Before the Minister rises, not in the least begrudge the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- I have been reminded of one more question for the Savours, bringing forward this amendment, and I think noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Does he see his it is a very good thing on behalf of the nation that we proposed requirement for a donor to be wholly and should have the opportunity to scrutinise it. GC 151 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 152

[LORD BROOKE OF SUTTON MANDEVILLE] in turn, would require a donor to affirm that these two The second thing of a generic nature to which I additional conditions are met under any statement wanted to allude was his observation about the advice made as to the source of a donation, as will be that had, I gather, been offered to Labour MPs, although required under the provisions of Clause 8. I know not whencesoever it came and the noble Lord, As the Committee has heard, identical amendments Lord Campbell-Savours, was not able to tell us. The were tabled in the other place but were not reached. It commission briefing on the subject, while pointing out goes without saying that the Government recognise some of the difficulties, makes it quite clear that the the force of support that these amendments enjoy in issue that we are debating is a matter for Parliament another place. I can confirm, and do so, that we and not for itself. The commission states that it is not understand the argument that the ability of an individual for it to make a judgment on the issue. to participate in the democratic processes of this country In the context of the advice, I shall briefly recount a should be linked to their taxation status in a broad conversation that I once had with a Permanent Secretary sense. But if these amendments were passed, that of a department in which I was serving as a Minister. would not introduce any further controls on donations We had been contemporary undergraduates, so we from other permissible donors—for example, from knew each other very well in a private capacity. He companies, and I shall come back to companies in a said that politicians of both parties—I think the Labour moment, and non-incorporated bodies. It could therefore Party is a little more prone to this than the Conservative have the effect of diverting these donations through Party, but there is no question that my party is prone other, less transparent routes. to it as well—are extremely resistant to what they regard as negative advice given to them when they The amendments that we are to deal with later in come into office, when civil servants tell them why the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, Amendments 89, what they want to do is impracticable. He said that 90 and 142, seek, as I understand it, to prevent people they are making a mistake because members of the who are not allowed to vote in local, parliamentary Civil Service are themselves part of the Government, and European elections, and companies controlled by and they take pride in the manner in which business is those people and other impermissible donors, from conducted because they are paid from the public purse. giving political donations. The qualification is not linked to the tax status of individuals or companies; it The civil servants have two preoccupations. First, if is the right to vote that the amendments will deal with, a Minister does not listen to all the arguments against rather than the tax that they pay. what he is proposing to do, there can be a moment when he is caught out at the Dispatch Box. That could The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, asked happen even at the Second Reading of a Bill on which about companies donating under European law. To the Minister has intervened on dozens of occasions. donate, a company must be incorporated in the UK or He has to look at difficulties contained in the Bill in an EU member state, but must still carry on business which he has never considered before because he has in the United Kingdom. That is at Section 54(2)(b) of brushed aside the advice that he has received. That is PPERA. Effectively, the amendment, even if carried, embarrassing for the civil servants sitting in the Box, would not achieve the clear objective that it appears who have no way of advising him. intended to achieve. Secondly, it is worse when a Government do not My noble friend asked the perfectly proper question take advice in the early stages and then find themselves of why the Government do not add an amendment to having to retreat in midstream from the legislation on that effect. In order to donate to UK political parties, which they have embarked and start again. It is infinitely companies have to be registered and carry on business easier to prepare legislation over six to nine months in the UK. The Government acknowledge the concerns than to suddenly have to produce it in a month, to that have been expressed about the scope for evasion which there has previously been some allusion even in of the ban on foreign donations contained in these this Committee. provisions. As we have indicated throughout—and I I do not think that the Government are wrong to shall say a little more about this later—the Government point out the difficulties of doing certain things. It is are of course willing to discuss how these provisions the right thing to do so that everyone taking part in might be improved and are willing to hear representations the debate on the legislation knows what the real on the best way forward. However, we believe that we practical difficulties are. I say that on behalf of people should move forward on any proposals for better who have been in government in both major parties. regulation in this area, if we can, on the basis of consensus. We think that in the long term that is much the best solution. Lord Bach: The intention behind Amendments 82 There are wider issues to consider than those that and 84 is to seek to tie the ability of an individual to the amendments would address. We are concerned—and make a political donation to his or her taxation status. it is a fair concern—that if these wider issues are not In order to be considered a permissible donor, the looked at, we risk creating a constitutional anomaly. 2000 Act requires that an individual must be registered The amendments tabled by my noble friend seek to in an electoral register. Amendment 82 would introduce prevent those who do not pay certain types of tax in two further conditions or requirements. First, the this country from donating in their individual capacity individual would have to be resident in the United to a political party or other regulated recipient. However, Kingdom for the purposes of the Income Tax Act 2007; they do not attempt to prevent those same people and, secondly, that individual would have to not be a from participating in a very active way in our democracy non-domiciled United Kingdom resident. Amendment 84, in a number of significant ways, including by voting, GC 153 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 154 sitting in our legislature and standing as a candidate to the workability of the proposal in its briefing note on sit in our legislature. That would be a significant the Bill ahead of the debate. It is worth quoting what it anomaly for which there would be, on the face of it, no says about this aspect. The commission states: obvious explanation. Because of the concern about “In order to assess whether any donation from an individual is the potential for creating constitutional anomalies, permissible, the recipient would need access to authoritative which we should try not to create if we can help it, we information about that individual’s tax status. The Commission believe that broader consideration is needed of the would also need access to that information to confirm compliance. relationship between, on the one hand, an individual’s We think it highly unlikely that this will be achievable in practice or (if so) that the resulting burden on regulated entities and on right to civic and democratic participation and, on the HM Revenue and Customs would be proportionate”. other hand, their responsibilities and, in particular, their taxation status. I should also note that at present many people are potentially unaware of the concept of domicile or Noble Lords may be aware—and let me tell them if their domicile status because it is not relevant to their they are not—that we approached the Committee on tax affairs. For example, domicile is irrelevant if you Standards in Public Life to suggest that it might want have no overseas income. Under this amendment people to consider the issue. However, we were advised that unaware of their domicile status could unwittingly the work programme of the committee does not allow commit an offence by giving to a political party. it to pursue the matter at present. We are continuing to My second practical point, if that is the right reflect on how best to take forward this very important expression, is that following the changes made in the matter. 2008 Budget, my right honourable friend the Chancellor We are, however, clear that it would be wrong to tie of the Exchequer gave a commitment that there would democratic rights in one area to taxation status, as the be no further substantial changes to the taxation amendments propose, while leaving other democratic regime for resident non-domiciles in the rest of this rights unfettered. Let me deal with some of the significant Parliament or the next. Any change to the rules on practical and legal difficulties which mean that the permissibility of donations should be mindful of this amendments proposed might not work in their current commitment. form. I shall mention briefly a few of these. Finally, we must also consider any legal implications First, the amendments raise real practical difficulties, arising from a proposal further to limit the ability to which cannot be wished away, about how a recipient participate in our electoral system, whether through a party or the Electoral Commission would be able to narrow limitation on the ability to make donations or verify whether or not what a donor told them about something wider on participation more generally. their taxation status was accurate. Coming to a sustainable It is possible—I do not say that it is inevitable, but it view about whether or not someone is resident or is possible—that the proposals in this area would domiciled in the UK for tax purposes raises complex touch on some key principles. For example, any limitation issues that it may be difficult for either a party or the on participation may well raise issues relating to Article 10 commission—both may be involved—to resolve on of the ECHR, the right to freedom of expression, and their own without expending considerable time and, Article 11, the right to freedom of association. We potentially, money. An individual’s taxation status is must bear in mind that this amendment proposes a essentially retrospective—a tax return is normally restriction that would apply to UK citizens who happen submitted at the end of a financial year—and it might, not to be resident in the UK for various tax purposes. therefore, be difficult at a point of time in the middle Any proposal that seeks to limit the right to democratic of a year to determine what an individual’s tax status is. participation of a UK citizen, whether it is in this field One way to deal with this might be to enable of donation or any other, will require particularly information about taxation status to be shared among careful scrutiny and may raise legal issues for which key stakeholders in the process. Information on whether there may be little established precedent. So I hope an individual is resident and/or domiciled in this country that the Government can be forgiven for acting here for taxation purposes is currently held only by Her with some caution. Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in certain circumstances. Any potential legal issue will almost certainly be HMRC does not collect data on residence and domicile complicated by focusing only on donations, rather status unless it is relevant to an individual’s tax calculation, than by taking a more consistent approach across the and it does not hold a list of individuals who are board towards the issue of tax status and participation non-resident or non-domiciled. It may be that for the in politics more generally. These matters may be complex proposal to be fully effective, HMRC would need to and it is clearly sensible to take the proper amount of collect additional information specifically for this purpose time to examine them with the care that they deserve. I in addition to any information it currently holds. The do not consider that a task of that detail and potential Electoral Commission or others would want to be able complexity can safely be completed during the timetable to access this information, whether it be routinely or allowed for by this Bill. on a more limited basis. There are many other points to bear in mind, some I hardly need to tell the Committee that the of which have been raised during this debate and confidentiality and data-sharing implications of any which the Government will reflect on in taking forward proposal to tie residency to donation permissibility work on this complex issue. I thank my noble friend would at the very least have to be carefully considered for raising this issue in the way that he has and for given Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ statutory giving us the opportunity to have this debate, which, I duty to preserve taxpayer confidentiality. I note that suspect, we may in some way or another come back to the Electoral Commission has expressed concerns about at a later stage of the Bill. GC 155 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 156

Lord Tyler: I am not sure whether the Minister I turn to the comments of my noble friend Lord intended to complete his remarks, but could he address Bach. I noted that his brief closely followed mine—that the important point raised with me by the Electoral is, the one that I received from my colleagues, which Commission—twice now—that, just short of the threshold was circulated in the House of Commons. Clearly, it for both verifying and reporting, it is possible to make must have come from the Government, because even a number of regular donations which would not alone the order in which the points were raised was very trigger that limitation but would clearly do so in similar to the order of the points in the document that aggregate? That is relevant not only to this discussion I read to the Committee. but also to the wider one in which we are engaged. On my noble friend’s point about the release of Lord Bach: I have an answer for the noble Lord: if information from Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, donations which are above the recordable threshold of is he aware of the NTC project? It is referred to in the £500 under this Bill are made by one donor, and the document that he was not too happy with, produced total of those donations over a period exceeds the by Rowntree. He may remember the debate about two reportable threshold of £7,500 in that same year, they weeks ago on the Floor of the House in which he have to be reported to the commission. We could commented on his reservations about the Rowntree lower the threshold, but if we were to do so it would be report. I cannot remember the name of the report but a disproportionate administrative burden. The noble it referred to NTC projects which provide HMRC Lord, as I look at him from quite a long way off, does tax-credit data to local authority housing departments. not seem entirely satisfied by what I have said and so I Therefore, there is obviously a process whereby HMRC offer to write to him with an answer before the next is able, certainly in the case of housing benefit, to stage of these proceedings. provide information to departments outside HMRC. I had almost finished what I was going to say. It is My noble friend said that the Government are for the aforementioned reasons that the Government continuing to reflect on these matters. In the event that cannot support the amendments. I hope that my noble this amendment were agreed in the House of Lords, friend at least realises that we consider this to be a very they would have to reflect very fast. I understand that, important matter, to which I know we will return at a if it goes back to the other House, Members will want later stage. to vote on it unless the Government come up with some alternatives, so they might want to get a move on Lord Campbell-Savours: I am grateful to my noble and sort out an alternative approach, rather than put friend for his comments. I do not want to be rude to the Commons in a position where they might have to noble Lords, but I shall be quite brief in dealing with vote on the amendments that I have tabled here today. them. What my noble friend has said will now be pored over in the House of Commons. His contribution to the debate today will be that which Members of Lord Bach: For the record, the Rowntree report Parliament at the other end will want to read in some that I was talking about—it is easy to get them detail; indeed, it will be widely circulated. confused—is not the one on the administration of elections; it is the one on data-sharing. I am afraid Lord Bach: I suspect that Members of Parliament that a few words of criticism did cross my lips on that may also want to read what the noble Lord said. report. Lord Campbell-Savours: I think that they will be far more interested in what the Minister said as against Lord Campbell-Savours: The reference to the interflow what I said. It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, of data between various organisations within government understands the politics of this at the other end; he appears in the section dealing with data-matching. Of has obviously been well briefed by his colleagues. The course, the Government’s case is that through data- noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, used matching they will be able to make the system of the £50,000 argument without explaining how it is individual registration more effective. On that basis, I possible to police foreign donations if they are capped beg leave to withdraw the amendment. at £50,000. It is utterly impossible, unless you have policemen all over the world checking up on inter- Amendment 82 withdrawn. company and inter-family relationships. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, presses me on Europe. I have to tell him that my interest in Amendment 83 Europe is not as detailed as his, as we know from his Moved by Lord Henley weekly interventions at Question Time. The noble 83: Clause 8, page 6, line 16, leave out “best of the individual’s” Lord, Lord Brooke, raised an important issue: the and insert “individual’s reasonable” whole question of how we legislate. He may be interested to know that this recommendation came from a report, sponsored by the IPPR, written some 16 years ago Lord Henley: I shall speak also to Amendments 87 entitled Money and Votes. Among its recommendations and 88. We now move on to what will be new Section 54A, is that donations from overseas sources should be which is inserted via Clause 8 and relates to declarations banned with three exceptions: registered overseas votes; as to source of donation. Our amendments are designed allocations from parliamentary groups and the European merely to provide some sort of protection for those Parliament; and donations below £1,000. Therefore, who have a duty to make such a declaration. The first there has been a longstanding argument over many one changes the words from, years on the need for reform in this area. “best of the individual’s knowledge”, GC 157 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 158 to “individual’s reasonable knowledge”. The second in the public interest to do so. The Electoral Commission amendment leaves out in line 41 “or recklessly”, so it has reassured us that it intends to take a risk-based has to be quite clear that a person knowingly makes a approach to the use of their investigatory powers and false direction and there is no question of recklessly. civil sanctions. This implies a proportionate approach To underline that particular point, after that we insert where attention is focused on the most egregious breaches a new subsection to make it clear that: of the Act. “A person does not commit an offence if it can be reasonably The amendments before us would negate the proven that the person had no intention of making, or by innocent requirement for a declaration under Clause 8. They mistake made, a false declaration under this section”. would mean that a person could only give a false When a new criminal offence is being created, as it is declaration if they did so knowingly; that the test for here, it is right that if the individual does not have the making a declaration would no longer require an mens rea and has not properly thought that he was individual to be satisfied “to the best of their knowledge committing a crime, it would be unwise to deem that or belief”; and, most significantly, that any honest he or she has done so in that event. I hope that the mistake would not be punishable. Minister will accept that it is particularly the last amendment that is the most important, in that it This is a powerful combination of amendments makes it quite clear that from Amendments 87 and 88 that would render the declaration requirement nugatory. a person must know that they are committing an It would be very hard for the commission or Crown offence before they commit it, rather than being able Prosecution Service to be satisfied to the criminal to be found guilty having made a reasonable mistake. I standard of proof, as is required by the changes proposed beg to move. in these amendments. That is contrary to our intention. The clause seeks to remind donors of the requirements applying to them—requirements of which many donors 3.30 pm could be ignorant. Lord Rennard: The amendments in this group do Any individual signing a declaration must surely be not really find favour with me. Amendment 83 would required to be certain of the truthfulness of that cause confusion when what is needed is clarity on this declaration. That is a basic requirement in many spheres situation. You should really know whether it is your of law. Suggesting that it does not matter whether the own money that you might be giving to a political statement is truthful, or that the individual has no party; the test should be a matter of fact rather than a responsibility for seeking to ascertain its truthfulness, supposedly reasonable belief that you think that it is detracts significantly from the value of the provision. your own money. We had sufficient controversy with Mr Abrahams’s donations in the north-east a few The provision is intended to buttress the existing years ago. The Bill is tightening up on those problems, regulatory regime for party finance, in particular by and introducing Amendment 83 would not help. ensuring that donors of significant amounts—now above £7,500—should not be ignorant of the law. Amendment 87 would weaken the Bill significantly Clause 8 does not make it harder to comply with the by leaving out “or recklessly”. We need to punish law, since it does not restrict the permissibility of recklessness, not just dishonesty. There has to be a donors. Rather it ensures that the existing law is complied reasonable expectation that you will endeavour to with. comply and that, if you are reckless in not actually complying, you should be open to punishment for it. Accepting the amendments would weaken the On Amendment 88, it may be that there is a slightly declaration requirement for Clause 8 when compared better form of words to be found; perhaps “proven with other declaration requirements in the 2000 Act; beyond reasonable doubt” would be better. But to and a justification for this difference in treatment is make a donation and not know that it is your own not evident. Moreover, removing the reference to money seems rather absurd. If you are in any doubt recklessness in this context might incentivise ignorance that it is your own money that you are giving to a of the rules. I reject the suggestion that all innocent party, you should really not be giving it away. mistakes ought to be disregarded. If an individual signs a false declaration under this requirement and there is no clear evidence that they knew that the Lord Tunnicliffe: Amendments 83, 87 and 88 relate statement was false, there might be evidence to suggest only to Clause 8, the requirement for a declaration as that the statement was reckless. If this cavalier attitude to the source of a donation above a certain threshold. to the statutory requirements is permitted, it will over Government amendments alter the level above which time erode public confidence in the probity of our such a declaration is required so that it is necessary to party and of the electoral finance regime. For these provide a declaration for donations above £7,500 only. reasons, I reject the amendment and hope that the The intention of these amendments appears to be to noble Lord will withdraw it. ensure that so-called “innocent” mistakes—essentially, the inadvertent submission of a false declaration under the requirement in Clause 8—are not needlessly punished. Lord Henley: At this stage, I can do nothing other That is an intention with which I have some sympathy, than withdraw it. However, I am not happy with that but I am afraid that the effect of these amendments in response. I am perfectly happy about Amendment 83, this specific context is not something I can support. which is not very important. However, the second While I am determined that the public interest is amendment in the group, which brings in “recklessness”, effectively served by a rigorous and enforceable regulatory and the third that provides cover for those who make regime, I am equally determined that minor or genuine an innocent mistake, are important. I certainly want mistakes are not automatically pursued where it is not to consider these again—it might be that the wording GC 159 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 160

[LORD HENLEY] Amendments 86 to 88 not moved. is wrong—at the next stage. I will withdraw Amendment 83 and not move the others, but I will want to come back Clause 8, as amended, agreed. to this later.

Lord Borrie: Before the noble Lord sits down, would Amendment 89 he not agree that the word “reckless” implies that you Moved by Lord Tyler do not care whether something is correct or not? Surely a person in that frame of mind should be 89: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— regarded as having committed an offence. “Donations by companies controlled by impermissible donors (1) A donation from a company controlled by an impermissible Lord Henley: I will certainly look at that in due donor shall itself count as not permissible for the purposes of the course. The third amendment is the most important. I 2000 Act. always worry about the Government in their legislative (2) A company shall count as controlled by an impermissible capacity, particularly when I look at some of the donor when— motoring legislation in which they imply that careless (a) an impermissible donor, or any combination of driving is almost the same as reckless driving. One impermissible donors, owns 75 per cent or more of the should be very wary about what they are up to when voting shares in the company; they use the word “reckless” here. That is why I will (b) an impermissible donor acts as a shadow director of the consider the amendments again, and there is a considerable company; or likelihood that I will—carelessly or recklessly—bring (c) a majority of the board of directors of the company are them forward at Report. The noble Lord will then impermissible donors. have a chance to debate them in the Chamber. (3) “Impermissible donor” means— (a) a donor who is not a permissible donor under the Lord Pearson of Rannoch: In view of what has been 2000 Act; or said, I support the second two amendments of the (b) a company controlled by an impermissible donor. noble Lord, Lord Henley. Recklessness is a much (4) “Shadow director” has the same meaning as it has in more difficult thing to prove than whether somebody section 251 of the Companies Act 2006.” knew something or not. I suggest that recklessness is often in the eye of the beholder. Lord Tyler: We do not need to spend a great deal of Secondly, Amendment 88, if carried, would certainly time on this matter because to some extent we have have avoided the problems to which I referred at covered it in a previous debate. In moving Amendment 89, Second Reading and in Committee yesterday of an I shall refer briefly to Amendment 90, which also innocent mistake ending up in court on appeal and follows Clause 8, and Amendment 142, which is a even eventually going to the High Court at vast expense consequential amendment in Clause 29. to the taxpayer and the recipient political party. I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will We have been carefully advised that, contrary to bring those last two back at the next stage. what the Minister said a few moments ago, if we had already approved Amendments 82 and 84 in the name Lord Tunnicliffe: Perhaps I may respond to the of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, an issue of how difficult it is to prove recklessness. That is impermissible donor would include someone who had quite properly so. I emphasised that the burden of been made impermissible under those amendments. proof must be to a criminal standard in this case. That So when the Minister said a few moments ago that it is why we are opposed to the amendments. There is already entirely relied on those who were not qualified in a considerable burden on proving an offence under terms of their electoral status, that is not our view. If this provision to the standard required in the clause. they were not permissible donors under the amendments that we endorsed for tax reasons, they would fall Lord Henley: I take note of what the Minister said, within this definition as well. but I am buoyed up by the fact that both the noble Amendment 89 relates to those companies whose Lords, Lord Borrie and Lord Pearson, would prefer to control is in the hands of an impermissible donor discuss this again in the Chamber. In withdrawing either for electoral reasons or for tax reasons. That Amendment 83 and offering a commitment that I am meets the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- unlikely to move Amendments 87 and 88, I give the Savours. Were we to take the view that impermissible Minister an assurance that I am likely to bring these donors would include those whose tax status made it amendments or something similar back at a later impossible, it is illogical if those people could get stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. round that by using a company under Amendment 89. Therefore, the amendment would make it impossible Amendment 83 withdrawn. for them to use that route. Amendment 84 not moved. Similarly, under Amendment 90, we were looking at the specific issue of those who are not qualified to vote under all three types of election. When this Amendment 85 matter was discussed in the other place, there was Moved by Lord Henley some anxiety that those Members of your Lordships’ 85: Clause 8, page 6, leave out lines 37 to 40 House who are disqualified from voting in parliamentary elections should not be permitted to make donations Amendment 85 agreed. to political parties. That is not our view and we have GC 161 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 162 adjusted what was then before the other place to make At this stage of the day, I think that is enough. I beg it clear that it relates to those who are not qualified in to move. all three types of elections—parliamentary, local and European. As noble Lords will recognise, we would Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My intervention not be preventing them from making a donation to a will be extremely brief. I did not table an amendment party under these provisions. to this effect, but does the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, 3.45 pm agree that, on the principle of the difference between I want to refer briefly to the debate in the other “and” and “or”, the meaning of subsection (1) would place at the 11th sitting of the Public Bill Committee be clearer if it said, on this Bill because there was a very interesting exchange “parliamentary elections and local elections and European elections”? between representatives of the three parties on the The omission of the “and” introduces a slight element issue of consensus, about which we have heard again of ambiguity and requires the reader to read it at least today. The Minister, Mr Wills, said: three times before he knows what the noble Lord is “I hope that one day we will see a consensus emerge on what trying to say. we all agree are important issues”— that is, the issues that we are now discussing and the Lord Tyler: Perhaps I may briefly respond. The wider issues that we discussed earlier today.My honourable noble Lord, Lord Brooke, has a great deal more friend Mr Howarth, our spokesman, said: experience than I have, but we were advised that this is “The Minister came back to the point about consensus, but he the normal way to identify these options. I may be seems to have a highly restricted view of where we should be wrong; if so, we can correct this between now and going and how. There are times when politicians have to go with the consensus of the public rather than the consensus of the Report. parties”. Most interesting of all, Mr Andrew Tyrie, for whom I Lord Tunnicliffe: I must say that officials and ourselves have the widest respect—I have worked very closely had also read the amendment as implying that it with him and he has given more attention to this issue would apply to Members of your Lordships’ House, on behalf of the Conservative Party than anyone else; but shall adjust my notes for brevity and we will look indeed, some would say more than anyone else in the at the words even more carefully if this amendment House of Commons—said: comes forward on Report. “I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that This group of amendments seeks to effect a significant we cannot arrive at the point at which one party can have a veto change in the regulation of donations to political over change if it were clearly what the overwhelming majority of voters concluded would enable greater public trust to be restored parties. Amendment 89 adds to the permissibility in such matters”.—[Official Report, Commons, Political Parties requirements for political donations from companies and Elections Bill Committee, 20/11/08; col. 414.] and would prevent companies which are controlled by Mr Howarth said that he agreed with that. impermissible donors from donating to UK political I quoted Mr Andrew Tyrie in particular because he parties. Under the proposed new clause, a company sums up precisely where the public are on this issue. would be deemed as being controlled by an impermissible Any representative of a political party who thinks that donor in a range of specified circumstances. For example, we can just coast along and wait for some entirely it would be deemed as being controlled by impermissible impossible situation to arise where the minority of donors where 75 per cent of the voting shares are held politicians are able to veto the view of the public, and by an impermissible donor or a combination of probably the majority of politicians generally, must impermissible donors. It would also be deemed as realise that that is no longer a sustainable position. being controlled by impermissible donors where a The public have a perception of Parliament and politics person who would be an impermissible donor under which is not doing us any good at the moment. the 2000 Act acts as a shadow director of the company, This was reflected at Second Reading from all sides or where the majority of the board of directors of the of the House. We may have to find a compromise. It company would be impermissible donors if they were may well be that all of us will have to give a little and donating in their capacity as individuals. be prepared to listen to others. If we simply go on, as Amendment 90 defines an impermissible donor as Ministers tend to do, saying that until we have agreement one who is not registered to vote in the UK, either in between the parties on the lowest common denominator parliamentary, local or European elections. Amendment 90 we will do nothing, not only your Lordships’ House extends this proposed exclusion whereby a company and the other place but the whole of Parliament and controlled by an impermissible donor by virtue of this the whole of our political life will continue to suffer an proposed provision should also be deemed to be an increasing degree of disengagement and disillusionment impermissible donor. Amendment 142 would mean with our political systems. that the provisions in the proposed new clauses would These amendments are similar to the amendment come into effect on Royal Assent. moved by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I begin by saying that I am sympathetic to the which we supported, and are an attempt to address a intention behind these amendments which seem primarily real public concern about the way in which money is intended to prevent foreign donations from being being employed to try to influence our political system. channelled through companies operating in the UK. Unless we face up to that, and unless Ministers are We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, prepared to give leadership on these issues instead of Lord Neill, under whose stewardship the Committee always waiting for the lowest common denominator of on Standards in Public Life provided the blueprint for consensus, then we will have a major problem. the Political Parties and Referendums Act, which was GC 163 Political Parties and Elections Bill[LORDS] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 164

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] Finally, as noble Lords will know by now, consensus a major reform in the area of party funding. It is is a watch-word of the Bill. A significant step such as therefore right that we take a step back and look at that proposed by the amendments would need to what the noble Lord said when considering these command broad cross-party consensus, and I am amendments. His report stated that, not convinced that such a climate exists at present. “political parties should in principle be banned from receiving Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw foreign donations”. the amendment. The Government welcomed this recommendation and sought to implement it in the Bill which became the Lord Marland: I apologise for arriving late at the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Committee. I also apologise for taking noble Lords I assure noble Lords that we remain committed to beyond four o’clock when they all have things to do. I the important principle that political parties should want to say a few things from a practical point of view. not receive foreign donations; and some of the provisions I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, in the Bill would provide a disincentive for foreign about getting public perception right, and I obviously donors channelling donations through legitimate structures endorse many of the things that Andrew Tyrie said in to circumvent the rules on transparency—for example, the other place. the proposals in Clause 8 which seek to ensure that The purpose of the Bill is partly to make party provisions regarding donations on behalf of others funding easier and more transparent. However, I am are understood and complied with, and those in Clause 12 afraid that I do not believe that the amendment, as which seek to bring more transparency to donations presented, makes it more transparent; it makes it more from unincorporated associations. difficult for the parties to practically operate and police the giving of donations. How is there a means The provisions preventing foreign companies from of finding out the dynamic of a shareholder register donating to UK political parties have existed since during the period of a gift? How can you police each 2000 and are a vital component of the regulatory individual shareholder of a party as a party treasurer regime. Section 54 of the 2000 Act requires a company or compliance officer? Who can determine their to be registered in the UK or in a member state, and status? It should not be incumbent on the political carrying on business in the UK. I understand that party to act as policeman for companies’ shareholder there are some concerns about whether those provisions registers. go far enough and I do not want to dismiss those concerns out of hand. However, I do not believe that The two criteria by which we have to transact, as the amendments proposed here are effective. does the noble Lord as party treasurer, are as follows. First, is the company UK-registered? That strikes me The scheme envisaged by these amendments would as being fair enough. Secondly, is it a company that almost certainly require a party or other donee to trades? Once those two criteria have been met, it verify the permissibility status of those who own becomes almost impossible to police the shareholder voting shares, of shadow directors and of board members. register. Whereas I am extremely sympathetic, as I am For example, although “shadow director” is defined in sure are all of us in this Room, with the wish to clear legislation, it would require considerable expertise in up public perception and find a method whereby we the law relating to companies to be able to say for can control these issues, I do not believe, with due certain whether someone was or was not such a director. deference to the noble Lord, that this works on a Therefore, it seems clear that verifying these new practical level. permissibility requirements would be, at the very least, a difficult and onerous task. It could greatly increase the possibility of parties and others inadvertently Lord Tyler: I am very grateful to the noble Lord, accepting donations that they had concluded were Lord Marland, in particular, because I know that we valid. I cannot see that the resulting damage to trust in share a great deal of concern about the reputation of politics which might follow, even in cases where there our political system and we are seeking practical ways is no blame to speak of, would be at all desirable. in which to go forward. At this stage, I can say only that we will look at the matter very carefully. I am very Ultimately, these amendments may well have the grateful to the Minister because he recognised that effect of substantially reducing the number of companies there is a genuine anxiety here that we all share. from which donations can be accepted if those matters However, finding the right practical solution is more cannot positively be verified, including companies about elusive. We will look carefully at what the Minister which there is no real concern but in relation to which said and at what the noble Lord, Lord Marland, said, the relevant details are simply unavailable. Consequently, because he speaks with great practical experience in the potential effects of the amendments could be this field as a former national treasurer of the Conservative far-reaching and disproportionate. Party. If we can find a way in which this can be Amendment 90, which prevents those ineligible to addressed more effectively between now and Report, vote in UK elections donating to UK political parties, we will bring it back. In the mean time, I beg leave to is also something that I have to oppose. The existing withdraw the amendment. provisions in the 2000 Act require individuals donating to a regulated recipient to be on an electoral register. Amendment 89 withdrawn. Extending this provision so that it excludes those who are not “qualified to vote” would seem to have no positive effect. Amendment 90 not moved. GC 165 Political Parties and Elections Bill[30 APRIL 2009] Political Parties and Elections Bill GC 166

Schedule 3: Declaration as to source of donation Amendment 95 Amendment 91 Moved by Lord Bach Moved by Lord Bach 95: Schedule 3, page 46, leave out lines 41 and 42 91: Schedule 3, page 46, line 20, leave out from beginning to “, the” in line 21 Amendment 95 agreed. Amendment 91 agreed. Amendment 96 not moved. Amendment 92 not moved. Schedule 3, as amended, agreed. Amendment 93 Clause 9 agreed. Moved by Lord Bach 93: Schedule 3, page 46, line 26, leave out from first “a” to Lord Tunnicliffe: This may be convenient moment “by” in line 28 and insert “regulated donee” for the Committee to adjourn until next Tuesday at Amendment 93 agreed. 3.30 pm. Amendment 94 not moved. Committee adjourned at 4.01 pm.

WS 27 Written Statements[30 APRIL 2009] Written Statements WS 28

Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mike Written Statements O’Brien MP) has made the following Written Ministerial Thursday 30 April 2009 Statement. I should like to inform the House that the Nuclear Animal Procedures Committee: Decommissioning Authority (NDA) has successfully Appointments concluded its auction process for the disposal of land adjacent to three existing nuclear sites at Bradwell in Statement Essex, Oldbury in South Gloucestershire and Wylfa in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Anglesey. Office (Lord West of Spithead): My honourable friend The successful bidders are: the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Identity, Bow Bidco Wylfa Ltd (A consortium consisting of Mr. Shahid Malik, has made the following Written EON UK plc and RWE Npower plc) for the Ministerial Statement: 178 hectares (438 acres) of land at Wylfa; On behalf of the Home Secretary and the Minister Bow Bidco Oldbury Ltd (A consortium consisting for the Department of Health and Social Services and of EON UK plc and RWE Npower plc) for the Public Safety for Northern Ireland, I am very pleased 48 hectares (119 acres) of land at Oldbury; to announce the appointment of Professor Hannah EDF Development Company Ltd for the 200 hectares Buchanan-Smith, Mr Michael Dennis, Dr Ian Peers, (493 acres) of land at Bradwell Dr David Smith and Mrs Sarah Wolfensohn as members of the Animal Procedures Committee from 2 February The sale of these three sites is worth up to £387 million 2009, each for a four-year term. which the NDA will use to offset the cost of Professor Hannah Buchanan-Smith of the University decommissioning and to further its core mission. The of Stirling has considerable expertise and knowledge successful outcome of the auction demonstrates that of primate behaviour and welfare. Professor Buchanan- major energy companies are gearing up for significant Smith has also worked widely as a consultant to investment in low carbon energy in the UK. industry and researched, with the pharmaceutical industry, primate behaviour in laboratory environments. Consolidated Fund Mr Michael Dennis, a microbiologist, of the Health Protection Agency has considerable experience in scientific Statement procedures involving both rodents and primates, and including using Category 4 facilities (facilities that The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury contain highly infectious human pathogens). Mr Dennis (Lord Myners): The Financial Services Secretary to has also authored on the subject of care and management the Treasury (Lord Myners): My right honourable of laboratory animals. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Alistair Darling) Dr Ian Peers is a statistician with Astra Zeneca with has today made the following Written Ministerial experience of biostatistics and experimental design. Statement. Dr Peers has experience of working with a wide range The sum of £1,555,162,313 was paid out of the of species (including fish and primates) and manages a Consolidated Fund on 30 March 2009 under Section global statistics resource. 228(5) of the Banking Act 2009. The Treasury is Dr David Smith, a senior director for Astra Zeneca satisfied that the need for this expenditure was too and president of the Laboratory Animal Science urgent to permit arrangements to be made for the Association (LASA), has a thorough knowledge of provision of money by Parliament. industry practices, and excellent engagement with welfare interests and working across the spectrum of stakeholders in this field. Cyprus: Call Out Order Mrs Sarah Wolfensohn, a veterinary practitioner with the University of Oxford, has a thorough working Statement knowledge of the Animal (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, extensive experience of working with a wide The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry range of species, in particular primates, but also including of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My right other regularly used laboratory animals and livestock, honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed and has been involved in the design of animal facilities Forces (Bob Ainsworth) has made the following Written in the UK and overseas. Ministerial Statement. I welcome the contribution that each new member A new call-out order has been made under Section will bring to this important advisory committee. 56 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable members of the Reserve Forces to continue to be called out into Auction of Nuclear Decommissioning permanent service and deployed to Cyprus as part of Authority Land the UK’s contribution to the United Nations Forces in Statement Cyprus (UNFICYP). The call-out order has effect until 30 April 2010. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Last year some 240 members of the TA, primarily Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food from 32 Signals Regiment, were called out and deployed and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My for six months in Cyprus as part of the UK’s contribution right honourable friend the Minister of State at the to UNFICYP. WS 29 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 30

Defence Vetting Agency: Key Targets directed to those who are in the most need, the Secretary Financial Year 2009-2010 of State will be making changes to the discretionary Social Fund. The changes will take effect from 27 April Statement 2009 for applications and awards made within the south-west region and from 8 June 2009 for the East The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Midlands region. This is because of the introduction of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My right of a requirement for third and subsequent living expense honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed crisis loan applications to be usually completed at a Forces (Bob Ainsworth) has made the following Written face-to-face interview at a Jobcentre Plus local office. Ministerial Statement. In addition, a customer will usually be limited to three non-aligned living expenses crisis loans within a 12-month Key Targets have been set for the chief executive of rolling period. This will be where the first and subsequent the Defence Vetting Agency for financial year 2009-10. awards are made within the south-west region on or These are provided below. after 27 April 2009 (8 June 2009 for the East Midlands Key target 1: External validation of quality region). Customers in these regions will be advised of To achieve at least a 98 per cent satisfaction rating the three non-aligned loan limit before taking out with 200 cases independently selected and reviewed their first and second loans. Subsequent loans will still from a random sample of security check (SC) and be available for customers who require assistance to developed vetting (DV) cases completed in the meet living expenses: preceding 12 month period. A: as a consequence of a disaster Key target 2: Delivering customer service B: in an emergency which – 1: is not a consequence To maintain customer service excellence accreditation. of an act or omission for which the applicant or his Key target 3: Completing routine cases partner is responsible, 2: the applicant or his partner could not have taken reasonable steps to a. To complete 85 per cent of counterterrorist avoid (as in guidance), regardless of the number of checks (CTC) within 30 calendar days. loans already taken out in a given year. b. To complete 85 per cent of SCs within 30 calendar As part of the third and subsequent application days. interview, customers will be provided with a leaflet c. To complete 85 per cent of defence DVs within that gives customers local and national organisations 100 calendar days. that are available to provide money management advice. Key target 4: Completing priority cases The leaflet has been placed in the Libraries of both a. To complete 90 per cent of CTCs within 10 calendar Houses of Parliament. days. b. To complete 90 per cent of SCs within 10 calendar Health: Lord Bradley’s Report days. Statement c. To complete 85 per cent of defence DVs within 30 calendar days. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Key Target three and four represent net performance of Justice (Lord Bach): My right honourable friend the that excludes delays outside of DVA control. Minister of State (David Hanson) has made the following Key target 5: Completing aftercare cases Written Ministerial Statement. a. All aftercare incident reports to be taken into On 5 December 2007, my right honourable friend action within seven calendar days of receipt. the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice b. 80 per cent of scheduled aftercare to be taken announced that my right honourable and noble friend into action within 30 calendar days of the due date. Lord Bradley, reporting jointly to the Department of Key target 6: Improving efficiency Health and the Ministry of Justice, would carry out a review into the diversion of offenders with mental To reduce the unit cost of output by 2 per cent. health problems or learning disabilities away from prison into other more appropriate services. Discretionary Social Fund The Government are very grateful to Lord Bradley for carrying out this review and to the many organisations Statement and people who formed part of the consultation and contributed. The Government welcome the report and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, its analysis, identifying where further work or reforms Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of are needed and setting out the case for change. Luton): My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- The Government recognise the need for reforms in Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, (Kitty this area and accept the direction set out in Lord Ussher) has made the following Written Ministerial Bradley’s report. In particular the Government will Statement. establish a Health and Criminal Justice National In order to offer further support to families on low Programme Board, bringing together the relevant incomes during the recession, the Chancellor’s Budget departments covering health, social care and criminal report on 22 April included the announcement that justice, for children and adults. The board’s first priority additional funding has been made available for Social will be to consider Lord Bradley’s recommendations Fund loans. In addition, to ensure that money is in detail and to develop a national delivery plan by WS 31 Written Statements[30 APRIL 2009] Written Statements WS 32

October 2009. The Government also accept Lord Bradley’s The NHS chief executive David Nicholson will be recommendation for a national advisory group to help writing to NHS organisations to bring these reports to ensure wider involvement from interested organisations. their attention and asking them to ensure they implement The Government would welcome comments on Lord all of the recommendations that are relevant to them. Bradley’s recommendations and nature and constituency Monitor will be writing in similar terms to foundation of the national advisory group by 31 May 2009. trusts. Copies of Lord Bradley’s report have been placed The Healthcare Commission report identified severe in the Libraries of both Houses and it is available at failings at Stafford Hospital. While much has been www.dh.gov.uk The Government’s response has also done to rectify these, the two reports indicate that been placed in the Library and is available at work still needs to be done to ensure quality of care at www.justice.gov.uk The Government will make a further the hospital reaches the highest standard. Swift and report to Parliament in October 2009. decisive action is being taken to ensure that is the case. Stafford Hospital was exceptional, not typical, but all those working in the NHS can learn from this experience so that such events do not occur again elsewhere. Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust Statement Puma Review Statement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): My The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry right honourable friend the Secretary of State for of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My right Health (Alan Johnson) has made the following Written honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed Ministerial Statement. Forces (Bob Ainsworth) has made the following Written On 17 March 2009 the Healthcare Commission, the Ministerial Statement. independent health regulator, published its comprehensive I am today placing in the Library of the House and report into the severe failings in emergency care provided on the MoD website a copy of two reports, The Puma by Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust between Force—A Review of Contemporary Operating Issues, 2005 and mid 2008. It was a catalogue of appalling and the earlier report, A Strategic Review of the Puma management and failures at every level for which I Helicopter Force. These reports were undertaken by apologised on behalf of the Government and the the Ministry of Defence as a prudent step following a NHS in my Oral Statement to the House the next day. number of Puma helicopter incidents in 2007. The I announced at the same time a range of measures, reports are a comprehensive and honest examination including two swift reviews into the circumstances at of a wide range of issues, including Puma Force Mid Staffordshire to be led by Professor Sir George culture, training, flying and operational requirements, Alberti, National Clinical Director for Emergency structure, leadership and management. Care, and Dr David Colin-Thomé, National Clinical A Strategic Review of the Puma Helicopter Force Director for Primary Care. was written for internal consumption and consequently contains sensitive information that we have needed to Professor Alberti has looked at the hospital’s procedures redact. I realise that this can make the document for emergency admissions and treatment and its progress difficult to read and that is why The Puma Force—A against the recommendations in the Healthcare Review of Contemporary Operating Issues was written Commission’s report. In addition, he looked at other and is also being published. This is an unclassified related areas of work, including the quality of care report, specifically designed to provide a clear narrative issues highlighted in the report in relation to the and allow the reader better to understand the context medical admission wards 10, 11 and 12. in which a series of incidents occurred and the actions Dr Colin-Thomé looked into the circumstances taken and planned as a result. As a consequence of the surrounding the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation latter, the Puma Force’s capability has been enhanced Trust prior to the Healthcare Commission’s investigation and the management of safety improved to minimise to learn lessons about how the primary care trust and the risk of further accidents. Clearly, operational flying strategic health authority, within the commissioning can never be risk free. and performance management systems that they operate, I would stress that there is no suggestion in the failed to expose what was happening in this hospital. documents that the Puma is in any way unsafe to fly. Those two reports were submitted me on 29 April and we are today placing copies in the Library together with the Government’s response. Regional Development Agencies: Board The trust and the Government have accepted all of Appointments the recommendations of these reports. Statement The new health and social care regulator, the Care Quality Commission, will, together with Monitor and The Minister of State, Department for Business, the PCT, take stock with the trust after three months. Enterprise and Regulatory Reform & Foreign and The CQC will do a follow-up review in six months. Commonwealth Office (Lord Davies of Abersoch): My Monitor, the independent regulator for FTs, will hold right honourable friend the Minister of State for monthly meetings with the trust to ensure it implements Employment Relations and Postal Affairs (Mr Pat all of the recommendations. McFadden) has made the following Statement. WS 33 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 34

I am pleased to announce that I have decided to As part of the Children’s Plan, we committed to a appoint two new business position RDA board members fundamental review of the primary curriculum, and I to the East of England Development Agency and the was delighted that Sir Jim Rose accepted my invitation East Midlands Development Agency. to carry out this important work. The remit for the review was to consider how to: RDA Board member new appointees Ensure that the primary curriculum builds on prior learning in the early years foundation stage East of England Development Agency Dr Robert Swann (EYFS) and supports transition to and children’s East Midlands Development Agency Mr Michael Bryant readiness for secondary school. The appointments will start on 1 May 2009 and be Increase flexibility and reduce prescription where for a period of two years and three months ending on possible to allow teachers more freedom to tailor 13 December 2011. the curriculum to their pupils’ interests, different I am also pleased to announce that I have decided and developing abilities and local circumstances to to reappoint fifteen existing RDA Board members ensure that no child is left behind and to narrow who between them serve on seven of our Regional achievement gaps. Development Agencies; listed below. Continue the focus on the crucial skills of literacy and numeracy, while recognising the increasing Period of learning opportunities opened up by advances in Re-Appointment Board member From technology in the past decade and children’s RDA re-appointees 14 December 2009 increasing ICT capabilities

Advantage West Brendan Connor 3 years Give a greater emphasis to children’s personal Midlands development and well-being. East of England Peter McCarthy Ward 3 years Development William Pope 3 years Balance these priorities with children’s entitlement Agency LordEdwardIveagh 3 years to a broad and balanced primary curriculum which East Midlands Tricia Pedlar 3 years introduces them to the arts, sciences, humanities, Development Haydn Biddle 3 years physical education and sport and foreign languages Agency as they progress through primary education. ONENorthEast Ruth Thompson 3 years Paul Callaghan 3 years In addition, I asked Sir Jim to consider how to Cllr Peter Jackson 3 years improve outcomes for summer-born children, including South East England Alexander Pratt 3 years considering when they should start school. During the Development Robert Goldfield 2 years review I asked Sir Jim to consider two of the EYFS Agency Pamela Charlwood 2 years early learning goals for writing as part of his wider The South West of John Savage 3 years England Regional review of improving transition from EYFS into primary Development key stage 1. Agency Yorkshire Forward Professor M Arthur 2 years Sir Jim’s interim report was published on 8 December Cllr John Weighell 3 years and has been subject to widespread consultation with teachers, parents, learned societies, subject experts and I have agreed to extend the appointment of Joe other professionals. He has now completed his final Dwek at North West Regional Development Agency, report, which I am publishing today along with proposals following agreement of the Commissioner for Public for a revised primary national curriculum. Hard copies Appointments, for a further year expiring in December are being placed in both Houses. I am accepting all of 2010. his recommendations subject to public consultation. The RDAs play a vital role in spreading economic Sir Jim has made a number of recommendations prosperity and opportunity to everyone. All the directly related to the design and content of the primary re-appointees have bought a wealth of experience to curriculum which will require legislation, which I have their RDA adding a vast amount of value. accepted subject to public consultation which I have I have placed further details of these appointments, asked the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority to including biographies, in the Libraries of both Houses. carry out from today. It will also consult on the I can confirm that the appointments were made in proposals to make personal, social, health and economic accordance with the Code of Practice of the education statutory that I announced on Monday Commissioner for Public Appointments 27 April. Sir Jim proposes a new core of essential skills for Primary Curriculum: Review learning and life focused on literacy, numeracy, ICT Statement and personal development and learning which is embedded across the whole curriculum. This will help The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to ensure that all children leave school secure in the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness basics. Sir Jim’s recommendations also include Morgan of Drefelin): My right honourable friend the restructuring the primary curriculum into six broad Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families areas of learning, within which essential subject content (Ed Balls) has made the following Written Ministerial will be organised and become more distinct as children Statement. progress from key stage 1 to key stage 2. WS 35 Written Statements[30 APRIL 2009] Written Statements WS 36

The areas of learning are: for the new curriculum from September 2011. A full understanding English, communication and languages; set of Sir Jim’s recommendations and my response is set out in the annex to this Statement. mathematical understanding; understanding the arts; On the question of when summer-born children historical, geographical and social understanding; should start school, I have accepted Sir Jim’s recommendation that children should ideally start school understanding physical development, health and in the September immediately following their fourth wellbeing; birthday, possibly on a part-time basis for some children, scientific and technological understanding. but with parents having freedom to choose. He has The draft programmes of learning for these areas taken account of the compelling evidence on the benefits set out the knowledge, skills and understanding which to summer-born children from starting school at the children should learn linked to the overall aims of same time as their peers and that the majority of local helping children become successful learners, confident authority areas already operate a single point of primary individuals and responsible citizens. The curriculum school entry in September. Young disabled children content is set out in three clear phases to help teachers and children with SEN in particular will benefit from plan for progression. Sir Jim also recommends that a starting school as soon as possible so that the right foreign language should become compulsory for the interventions are put in place to ensure that these first time from age seven, building on the recommendation children also make progress alongside their fellow of the languages review carried out by the late Lord pupils. I am mindful, however, that compulsory school Dearing. age does not start until the term after a child turns five A number of other significant recommendations do and that some parents have a strong preference for not require legislation and I plan to take them forward their child’s early years experience to take place outside subject to the forthcoming consultation. These will a school setting. I therefore intend to make funding support and promote the successful implementation available across the maintained, private and voluntary of the new curriculum from September 2011. These sectors to enable all children to receive full-time provision include promoting what Sir Jim has already seen as in education and childcare from the September after excellent practice in some of our best primary schools their fourth birthday. Alongside making that provision relating to teaching reading and encouraging children’s available, we will ensure that parents have clear information spoken communication skills. He has also concluded about the benefits of beginning reception in September that we should retain the two writing early learning and we will work to help schools and early years goals as aspirational targets and that the Government settings to smooth the transition for any children who should make available guidance and support to smooth move into reception after September. children’s transition from the EYFS to primary school, I am enormously grateful to Sir Jim for the rigorous, including supporting those children still working towards inclusive and evidence-based way in which he has these goals. undertaken this major review. He has consulted widely Other recommendations relate to helping schools with subject experts, learned societies, teachers and plan for implementing the new curriculum, such as other professionals, and his review is informed by the Government supporting teachers’ professional excellent practice in our best schools and internationally. development needs to deliver our increased expectations Throughout the review he has kept in the forefront of around ICT. Given the fundamental nature of the his thinking the interests of children and their parents. changes and the important contribution that I expect I am confident that his work will make a huge difference the new curriculum to make to children’s attainment to millions of young people, helping to ensure that and well-being, I have agreed that primary schools their primary years equip them with the knowledge, should be permitted an additional training day in 2010 skills and understanding they need to thrive in their to give every school the time and opportunity to plan future education and later lives.

Rose review of the primary curriculum: Key recommendations and Government response

Area of remit Rose recommendation Government response

Curriculum review Recommendation 1: A National Curriculum should be retained as a Accept. statutory entitlement for all children.

Recommendation 2: Consideration should be given to making the historically Accept. re-active response to curriculum review a pro-active strategy whereby the EYFS and the statutory curriculum for primary and secondary schools are reviewed at agreed intervals as a whole, rather than as separate phases reviewed out of sequence. This would impose a discipline on the process of review such that schools could be assured of a period of stability in which to achieve agreed curricular goals.

Recommendation 3: The aims for a revised primary curriculum derived Accept in principle, subject to from the 2006 Education Act, the Children’s Plan and ‘Every Child public consultation. Matters’ should be underpinned by a unified statement of values which is fit for all stages of statutory education. The aims and values established as part of the recent secondary curriculum review should be extended to the primary curriculum. WS 37 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 38

Rose review of the primary curriculum: Key recommendations and Government response Area of remit Rose recommendation Government response

Managing curriculum change Recommendation 4: In preparing for a revised curriculum in 2011, examples Accept. of good timetabling and time management from highly successful schools should be made available. Curriculum design and content Recommendation 5: The content of the primary curriculum should be Accept in principle, subject to organised as it is now under knowledge, skills and understanding but public consultation. structured as six areas of learning to enable children to benefit fully from high quality subject teaching and equally challenging cross-curricular studies. Recommendation 6: (i) To help primary schools plan for, and sustain Accept. curricular continuity, and secure pupils’ progress from Year R to Year 7, the QCA should work closely with the National Strategies to support schools to plan the new curriculum. (ii) Web-based guidance should be made available drawing upon the experience of that for the secondary curriculum. This should include refreshing the primary literacy and numeracy frameworks (iii) In line with arrangements for implementing the new secondary curriculum, DCSF should provide primary schools with one extra training day in 2010 to enable the workforce in each school to understand the new primary curriculum and start planning how it will work in their school. Recommendation 7: The DCSF should commission a plain-language guide Accept. to the curriculum for parents to help them understand how it will change to match children’s developing abilities and how they can best support their children’s learning at school. Literacy, numeracy and ICT Recommendation 8: (i) Literacy, numeracy and ICT should form the new Recommendation 8(i): Accept core of the primary curriculum. in principle, subject to public (ii) Schools should continue to prioritise literacy, numeracy, ICT and consultation. personal development as the foundational knowledge, skills and understanding Recommendations 8(ii) and 8(iii): of the primary curriculum; the content of which should be clearly defined, Accept. taught discretely, and used and applied extensively in each area of learning. (iii) The DCSF Expert Group on Assessment should give consideration to how the new core of literacy, numeracy and ICT should be assessed and these aspects of children’s performance reported to parents. Recommendation 9: Primary schools should make sure that children’s Accept. spoken communication is developed intensively within all subjects and for learning across the curriculum. In so doing, schools should capitalise on the powerful contributions of the performing and visual arts, especially role play and drama. Recommendation 10: (i) Primary schools should continue to build on the Accept. commendable progress many have made in teaching decoding and encoding skills for reading and spelling through high quality, systematic, phonic work as advocated by the 2006 Reading Review as the prime approach for teaching beginner readers. (ii) Similar priorities and principles should apply to numeracy in keeping with the recommendations of the Williams review. Recommendation 11: (i) The two Early Learning Goals for writing should Accept. be retained as valid, aspirational goals for the end of the reception class. (ii) DCSF should offer additional guidance for practitioners and teachers on supporting young children’s emerging writing skills, including examples of how these two goals are being achieved by many children. Recommendation 12: The DCSF, working with QCA and BECTA, should Accept. consider what additional support teachers will need to meet the raised expectations of children’s ICT capabilities and use of technology to enrich learning across the curriculum and set in train adequate support. Personal development Recommendation 13: (i) The QCA, in consultation with representative Accept in principle, subject to groups, should exemplify and promote the range of learning envisioned in public consultation. the new framework for Personal Development with the firm intention of helping schools to plan for balanced coverage, and avoid piecemeal treatment of this central aspect of the curriculum. (ii) Personal Development should be given core status along with literacy, numeracy and ICT. The QCA should work with schools to explore and develop innovative ways of assessing pupil progress in this area. Transition and progression Recommendation 14: (i) The preferred pattern of entry to reception classes Accept. should be the September immediately following a child’s fourth birthday. However, this should be subject to well informed discussion with parents, taking into account their views of a child’s maturity and readiness to enter reception class. Arrangements should be such as to make entry to reception class an exciting and enjoyable experience for all children, with opportunities for flexible arrangements such as a period of part-time attendance if judged appropriate. (ii) The DCSF should provide information to parents and local authorities about the optimum conditions, flexibilities and benefits to children of entering reception class in the September immediately after their fourth birthday. WS 39 Written Statements[30 APRIL 2009] Written Statements WS 40

Rose review of the primary curriculum: Key recommendations and Government response Area of remit Rose recommendation Government response

Recommendation 15: The QCA should make sure that guidance on the Accept. revised primary curriculum includes clear advice on how best to support those children who need to continue to work toward the early learning goals and build on the learning that has taken place in the EYFS. Recommendation 16: What constitutes high quality of play-based learning, Accept. especially across the EYFS and into Year 1, should be made explicit in guidance from the QCA. Because parents, too, need to understand the importance to children of learning through play, appropriate aspects of this guidance should be routed through schools to parents. Recommendation 17: Key stage 1 teachers should be involved in the Accept. moderation of Early Years Foundation Stage Profile (EYFSP) assessments within schools, to increase their understanding of the EYFSP and their confidence in the judgements of reception teachers. Recommendation 18: Major central initiatives, such as, Assessment for Accept. Learning and Assessing Pupils’ Progress have huge potential for strengthening the transition of children from primary to secondary schools. The DCSF should develop these initiatives to keep pace with the fast growing appetite in primary schools to take them on board. Recommendation 19: With their local authorities, primary and secondary Accept schools should agree a joint policy for bridging children’s transition from key stage 2 to key stage 3. Five inter-dependent transition bridges are suggested for this purpose: administrative; social and personal; curriculum; pedagogy, and autonomy and managing learning. This should involve extended studies across year 6 and year 7, and draw upon the support of personal tutors. Recommendation 20: When the National Strategies next review their Accept. materials they should look to further strengthen curricular continuity between key stage 2 and key stage 3. Languages Recommendation 21: The knowledge, skills, and understanding that children Accept in principle, subject to need to acquire in languages should be situated within the area of learning public consultation. entitled ‘English, communication and languages’. This will enable teachers and pupils to exploit the links between English and the chosen language(s) and realise the potential, for example, of role play and drama for young children learning a modern language. Recommendation 22: Schools should focus on teaching only one or two Accept in principle, subject to languages. This should not preclude providing pupils with experiences in public consultation. other languages as opportunities arise in cross-curricular studies, as long as sustained learning is secured in one or two languages to ensure that children are able to achieve progression over four years in line with the expectations of the key stage 2 Framework for Languages. Recommendation 23: Primary schools should be free to choose the language(s) Accept in principle, subject to that they wish to teach. However, as far as possible the languages offered public consultation. should be those which children will be taught in key stage 3. Recommendation 24: The commendable work that is taking place to Accept in principle, subject to support the delivery of language teaching through workforce development comprehensive spending review programmes should continue at current levels of funding. settlement beyond April 2011. Recommendation 25: A survey by OFSTED of how well primary schools Accept. are managing the introduction of languages as a compulsory subject should take place no later than 2014.

WA 41 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 42

initiated by the shareholders or boards of directors Written Answers of those two banks″, whether the Government as a majority shareholder will now initiate such action. Thursday 30 April 2009 [HL2668]

Afghanistan The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) Question is an arm’s-length company wholly owned by the Asked by Lord Swinfen Government, which was established to manage the Government’s investments on a commercial basis. Its To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the overarching objectives are to protect and create value Written Answer by Lord Tunnicliffe on 20 April for the taxpayer as shareholder, with due regard to (HL2343), when they expect to respond to the financial stability and acting in a way that promotes Simmonds/Ferozuddin report Support to the Health competition. Sector in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, dated On the basis of published information, UKFI is 30 December 2008. [HL2859] aware of no grounds for taking legal action against the auditors of Lloyds Bank or the Royal Bank of Scotland. Lord Tunnicliffe: The report Support to the Health The boards of both banks must reach their own Sector in Helmand Province provided a comprehensive decisions on the matter. UKFI has engaged with the assessment of current healthcare provision in Helmand. banks on a number of issues including use of auditors, This information is being used by the Government of and discloses any voting decisions it makes on its Afghanistan, international donors (including the World website at www.ukfi.gov.uk. Bank and the Government of Estonia) as well as the Helmand Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) to Banking: Iceland feed into future policy on heathcare in Helmand. Question Animal Health Asked by Viscount Waverley Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, before considering giving financial support to charities Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach which lost money in the Icelandic banking crisis, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the they will investigate (a) concerns about whether Written Answer by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on charitable donations should have been invested or 26 February (WA 108), whether the 322 per cent put to use, and (b) whether the cost of administering increase in the Department for Environment, Food charitable programmes was at a level deemed and Rural Affairs charge for Shared Service Division satisfactory against the standards of the Office of services to animal health has been audited by the the Third Sector and the Department for International Audit Commission or investigated by any body Development. [HL2865] competent to decide whether the work done is necessary; whether the charge is reasonable; and The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury whether the time taken is fair. [HL3029] (Lord Myners): The issue of financial assistance for these charities was raised by the Treasury Select Committee The Minister of State, Department of Energy and in its recent report on the impact of the Icelandic Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food banking collapse. We will be responding to the Committee and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The on this, and the other recommendations, in due course. original charge for animal health (AH) was based on a The Charity Commission is the regulator for the notional cost basis only, i.e. estimated staffing costs charitable sector and issues guidance on the principles for HR, procurement and finance. The decision to for the investment of charitable funds and the holding move on to a fully absorbed costs model was taken of reserves. The Commission’s guidance states that across all Defra corporate services and AH were allocated “the basic principle governing trustees’ decisions about additional budget to cover the higher costs, The charges investing their charity’s funds is that they must take a now include, for example, IT costs and depreciation. prudent approach”. The charging methodology and approach has been Expenditure on administration costs by a charity is reviewed by Defra’s Internal Audit Division and is a matter of judgment for the charity’s trustees and compliant with the department’s charging policy. The should be recorded in the charity’s audited accounts. costs are also subject to discussion directly with AH. Banking Biometric Data Question Question Asked by Lord Tebbit Asked by Baroness Quin To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment answer by Lord Myners on 17 March (HL Deb, they have made of the effect of the introduction of col 111) that action against the auditors of Lloyds biometric cards on the numbers of seasonal workers Bank or the Royal Bank of Scotland ″should be from Australia and New Zealand applying to come WA 43 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 44

to the United Kingdom to work as sheep shearers Following a tendering process in August 2008, the during the coming sheepshearing season in the contract to pilot the draft framework of standards United Kingdom. [HL3004] and recruitment process for institutions engaging Muslim chaplains in public service has been awarded to Faith The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Matters. Faith Matters will carry out a number of Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food pilots in different institutions across the country over and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): It is too the coming months. The evaluation of the pilots will early to make a conclusive assessment of the effect of incorporate the views of relevant officers within the new entry requirements for workers under Tier 2 participating institutions, as well as wider stakeholder of the Points Based System on this group. Defra and consultation with imams, other faith leaders, chaplains, Home Office Officials continue to work closely with and officials from other government departments and industry to ensure their impact on workers seeking relevant associated agencies. We expect the pilots to be entry for the current shearing season is minimised. completed by autumn 2009. Using key findings from evaluation of the pilots and stakeholder consultation, Faith Matters will produce Bottled Water updated versions of the voluntary standards framework Question and recruitment process, with accompanying notes and a report listing key actions that need to be taken Asked by Baroness Warsi when implementing the documents. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much (a) the Drinking Water Inspectorate, (b) OFWAT, Civil Service: Performance Pay and (c) the Environment Agency, spent on bottled Question water in each of the last five years. [HL2956] Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester The Minister of State, Department of Energy and To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Written Statement by the Lord President (Baroness and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Royall of Blaisdon) on 31 March (WS 83–84), what Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) has not spent was the estimated size of the Department for money on bottled water. The DWI office has a supply International Development’s non-consolidated of fresh tap water available to staff and visitors. performance-related pay pot for the senior Civil Service, in each of the last five years for which Ofwat has not spent any money on bottled water. information is available. [HL2852] Environment Agency records are not held centrally and would incur disproportionate cost to collate. However Lord Tunnicliffe: Pay arrangements for the Senior since 2005 the Environment Agency has not provided Civil Service are managed centrally by the Cabinet bottled water as part of the hospitality service to staff Office and are based on recommendations by the or guests for meetings or other events. independent Senior Salaries Review Body. A formal operational instruction has been issued to all Environment Agency regions which explicitly states Communities: Preventing Extremism that bottled water should not be provided for meetings or other functions. The only exceptions are if drinking Question water is not available on site (possible at remote depots) Asked by Baroness Warsi or for emergency purposes (e.g. mains disruption). To ask Her Majesty’s Government what projects have been funded by the Preventing Violent Extremism Chaplains Community Leadership Fund; and at what cost. [HL3068] Question Asked by Baroness Warsi The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress (Baroness Andrews): The list of all projects that received they have made in the development and implementation funding through the Preventing Violent Extremism of a standards and recruitment framework for all Community Leadership Fund (CLF) in 2007-08 has chaplains engaged in public service. [HL3009] been placed in the House Library. Funding allocations for each project in 07-08 have been provided in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, answer to a previous Parliamentary Question (DCLG Department for Communities and Local Government Ref: 1446 08/09). (Baroness Andrews): The Experience Corps were The full list of projects receiving CLF funding contracted in February 2008 to produce a report based between 2008-09 and 2010-11 is set out below. This on assessment, collation and analysis of data to establish includes all projects that were awarded funding in an evidence base on the existing provision of Muslim 2008. Funding will also be subject to organisations chaplaincy including standards and recruitment processes, providing sufficient evidence that projects are making and to develop a draft framework of voluntary standards satisfactory progress and organisations are complying and recruitment process for institutions to consider with grant terms and conditions. when engaging Muslim chaplains in public service. (This table will be placed in the House Library). WA 45 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 46

Capacity Building Capacity Building Proposed Proposed Organisation Project description grant Organisation Project description grant

British BMF will develop their own £75,000 (08/09) Ashram Building the capacity of housing £50,000 (08/09) Muslim capacity and sustainability by £50,000 (09/10) Housing associations and Muslim social £50,000 (09/10) Forum recruiting to four posts. This will Limited housing tenants to tackle violent £50,000 (10/11) enable them to work with local extremism. This project will Muslim organisations across the deliver training to frontline staff country to develop their own to deliver culturally sensitive working arrangements and services to Muslim tenants and governance structures. work with Muslim communities to empower them through Business in Mosaic Muslim Media Network £25,000 (08/09) increased representation on the for Muslims working in the housing boards and resident Community media sector to build the committees. (BiTC) confidence of community groups and leaders to engage the media. Dervish Building the organisational £20,000 (08/09) Arts capacity of Dervish Arts to GW GW Theatre will build their £95,000 (08/09) market and deliver their arts Theatre organisational infrastructure in based workshops with young Company order to deliver a national tour people and Muslim women. The of their production “One “Rainbow” workshops engage Extreme to the Other”. Aimed at school pupils through creative young people aged 14-25 and arts to explore their identities as adults too, “One Extreme to the British Muslims and promote a Other” offers a powerful positive understanding of Islam. theatrical stimulus to debate The “Dreams to Reality” about issues relating to workshops offer practical extremism and is accompanied support to Muslim women to by a comprehensive multimedia empower them to reject violent follow-up package to inform extremism in their communities further discussion and lead in good practice. They aim to Faith “Caring for Converts” project - £50,000 (08/09) deliver 110 performances over Matters Supporting the vulnerable £50,000 (09/10) the next three years. convert community by establishing a helpline and Khayaal Khayaal Theatre Company plans £129,541(08/09) website for new converts; and Theatre to build its capacity for growth providing mentoring and Company and sustainability in order to support to converts and their deliver between 200-250 families. performances of their two plays “Hearts and Minds” and “Sun Henna Building the organisational £55,000 (08/09) and Wind” in schools across the Foundation capacity of the Henna £35,000 (09/10) country over the next three Foundation to extend their work £45,000 (10/11) years. Both of these plays with Muslim families and address the issues of women in England. Henna will radicalisation and extremism as also deliver various community they manifest themselves in engagement events across families and communities. England to discuss the role of the family in preventing Muslim Capacity building for MYH to £30,650 (08/09) extremism. Youth recruit a Helpline Care Manager £61,888(09/ Helpline to develop the Helpline’s 10) Islamic Developing the Islamic £20,000 (08/09) support services and extend the £64,767 (10/11) Society of Awareness Week website to have reach of its support services to Britain a particular focus on schools, support vulnerable young people teachers and young people. The at risk of radicalisation in hard website will promote a positive to reach communities, such as understanding of Islam to other the Somali and Eastern communities and have European Muslim communities. moderated online discussion forums for young people Association AMCED will build its £44,400 from of Muslim organisational capacity to CLG (08/09) Muslim Developing the infrastructure £20,000 (08/09) Chaplains effectively deliver new services to £30,000 from Women’s and sustainability of the Muslim £20,000 (09/10) in Muslim chaplains to promote DIUS (08/09) Network Women’s Network UK to £30,000 (10/11) Education community cohesion and UK provide support and advice to (AMCED) prevent violent extremism. This over 200 women’s organisations. will involve recruitment and training of new staff, Sufi Building the organisational £150,000(08/09) development and launch of their Muslim capacity of the Sufi Muslim website. Council Council in order to work with the Muslim community to Mosques Development of MINAB’s £116,000(08/09) prevent radicalisation and build and Imams operational plan, recruitment of £58,000 (09/10) resilience. SMC will expand its National members to the umbrella organisation to deliver activities Advisory organisation in time for the first across England and will organise Board annual general meeting and cultural events in the community (MINAB) piloting of minimum standards in order to promote discussion in four mosques. around violent extremism. WA 47 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 48

Capacity Building Supporting Youth Organisation Project description Proposed grant Proposed Organisation Project description grant Muslim Scholarship programme for 10 £41,300 (08/09) Youthwork individuals to undertake a Foundation National Youth Association The The project will create a website £60,000 (08/09) accredited training course to Somali to provide advice and guidance qualify as Muslim youth and Messenger to the Somali community in the community workers. UK. It will focus on providing UK Race Pilot of a citizenship toolkit £75,072 (08/09) support for young Somali people and Europe resource to support the work and offering them advice around Network of young leaders, youth understanding wider UK society, workers, teachers, Imams and accessing services, obtaining parents which has been skills and training/employment. developed using CLG funding Another function of the website in 2007/08 will be to promote moderate messages about Islam. OneVoice Engagement of young Muslim £35,000 (08/09) Europe and Jewish students in a youth leadership development Ulfah Arts Building the organisational £37,050 (08/09) training course to build and capacity of Ulfah Arts to enable £10,000 (09/10) promote a consensus for a them to deliver arts based £20,000 (10/11) peaceful resolution to conflicts projects with young Muslims in the Middle East. and Muslim women, which will Changemakers Continuation of 2007-08 CLG £80,000 (08/09) help them to explore issues Foundation funded project to deliver a around faith and identity and youth leadership programme challenge extremist to develop young leaders to interpretations of Islam. become Changemakers and develop and deliver projects in Supporting Youth their own communities. Organisation Project description Proposed grant Nasiha Youth Citizen Capacity £80, 000 (08/09) Building Project to network Common Common Purpose will deliver £65,000 (08/09) young people in higher Purpose leadership training courses for education to educate and younger members of the support Key Stage 2 and 3 Muslim community: pupils in mosque schools. • “Your Turn” - a schools programme for year 9 pupils in Al-Khoei Supporting the launch of the £30,000 (08/09) London, Manchester, Foundation Young Muslim Leadership/ Birmingham and in West Ambassadors programme Yorkshire. which will equip young people • “Frontrunner” - a with theological programme for young leaders understanding to counter in higher education. extremist ideologies • A customized “Frontrunner” Bold Roll out of the Tagmap TV £49,000 (08/09) programme for 40 young Creative project across 3 regions. £60,000 (09/10) Muslim leaders who are not in Tagmap TV is an internet £70,000 (10/11) full-time education or who based resource tool that cannot make the dates of the encourages debate and three open programmes. discussion amongst young • “Navigator” - a programme people about issues relating to in every region of the UK for faith, citizenship and identity. first career leaders. The project will also train 100 Local Programme of sports coaching £79,440 (08/09) young people to become Leagues and local competitions as Tagmap Champions. Limited preventative and diversionary Business in Mosaic Muslim Mentoring £30,000 (08/09) activities for Muslim young the Scheme – This programme £50,000 (09/10) people (aged 8-19 years) and Community aims to promote positive engagement of undergraduates messages about being a British with policy makers and Muslim and support young decision makers. people to raise their Karimia Develop the work of the £67,180 (08/09) aspirations and enhance their Institute Muslim Youth Development £50,000 (09/10) sense of belonging in UK Partnership, funded by CLG £50,000 (10/11) society. The scheme will in 07/08 to train and support provide role models who will 150 volunteer Muslim Youth mentor groups of young Leaders over three years. people. Bradford Engagement of young people £41,951 (08/09) Citizenship The project will address issues £20,000 (08/09) Police Club through workshops and £30,000 (09/10) Foundation around the alienation of £50,000 (09/10) for Young informal classroom settings to £30,000 (10/11) Muslim youth by engaging £40,000 (10/11) People examine the relationship them in Youth Engagement between peace, violence, Groups. The groups will conflict and war with a encourage processes of particular emphasis on critical, democratic enquiry in questions of applied ethics order to address their involving school teachers and grievances and help them to youth community workers as engage with the challenges of trained educators. violent extremism. WA 49 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 50

Supporting Youth Supporting Women

Organisation Project description Proposed grant Organisation Project description Proposed grant

£28,000 (08/09) Ethnic ASPIRE Project - Using £40,000 (08/09) Henna The “Joining Hands Against £17,525 (09/10) Minority group/family sessions, E50,000(09/10) Foundation Forced Marriage” project aims to £23,259 (10/11) Benevolent educational & capacity £50,000 (10/11) support Muslim women at risk of Association building workshops, this being forced into marriage and to project aims to develop the educate them that Islam actually knowledge, skills and increase forbids forced marriage. Henna the capacity of young Muslim will adapt the “Joining Hands people so that they may against Forced Marriage” understand violent extremism Campaign to the British context. and prevent it from happening They will also organise in their locality and the wider awareness-raising events to create community. a safe space for debate between young women, parents and other community members about The The project will provide £7,000 (08/09) forced marriage. The project also Prince’s leadership opportunities for £54,000 (09/10) aims to train Muslim women in Trust Muslim young people, £52,000 (10/11) local communities in public equipping them with skills to speaking to empower them to use enable them to become the toolkit on forced marriage. positive role models within their communities, and thus Kali Creating a platform to speak out £8,431.66 (08/09) promoting positive alternatives on radicalisation through drama £6,425 (09/10) to extremist ideas and for Muslim women. The project £13,300 (10/11) influences. The Prince’s Trust will develop the women’s skills in Community Cash Awards writing for public performance scheme will provide through a series of workshops. opportunities for groups of Performances will be held across 14-25 year-olds to design and the country by actors and the deliver their own community writers will subsequently present projects. on their work.

Young This project will create a £20,000 (08/09) Somali The Tawjeeh Project will help £20,000 (08/09) Muslims network of local, regional and Family build a network of Somali £15,645 (09/10) UK national events that will Support women and to develop their £33,780 (10/11) celebrate the best of British Group understanding of and their Muslim youth culture and participation in wider UK society talent and will promote and how their faith relates to positive alternative activities to being part of wider society. The young Muslims across project will also provide England. The events will also participants with the create real and virtual spaces interpersonal skills to challenge where young Muslims can radical views within their family come together to challenge the and the wider community and to idea that being Muslim and support their children to turn being British are incompatible. away from violent extremism.

Supporting Women Three Faiths Young Muslim women (ages £5,000 (08/09) Forum 13-18) from traditional Islamic £15,000 (09/10) girls’ schools will use exploration Organisation Project description Proposed grant of clothing and fashion to construct their own sense of Britishness and belonging, whilst Faith UK tour of Muslim women role £29,775 (08/09) remaining proud and strong in Matters models from the US. Women will £29,775 (09/10) their faith. They will also develop be drawn from careers such as ways to help their peers become TV presenters, researchers, civil resilient to distorted, limiting servants, business entrepreneurs, views on the expected role and civil society organisational heads. behaviour codes of women, by exposing them to Islamic Faith The purpose of this project is to £75,350 (08/09) Scholarship. Matters compile a directory of the 100 leading mosques that provide the Timebank A two-year mentoring project in £60,000 (08/09) best access to women. Each (One20) London & Manchester to £50,000 (09/10) mosque will be awarded a rating empower Muslim women so that out of five stars based on criteria they are equipped with the developed through women’s focus practical tools needed to play a groups. The ultimate aim is to full and active role in society and incentivise mosques to improve lead on challenging extremism their engagement with and within their families and inclusion of women in all aspects communities. This programme of their work through greater will match 60 older women with access to recognition and 60 younger women in one-to-one resources from the public sector. mentoring relationships. WA 51 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 52

Supporting Women Supporting Faith Leaders

Organisation Project description Proposed grant Organisation Project description Proposed grant

Local The development of a regional £29,300 (08/09) League of Using regional Communication £10,000 (08/09) Government Muslim women’s network to £30,000 (09/10) British Development Programmes to £25,000 (09/10) Yorkshire increase and enhance the £25,000 (10/11) Muslims build the capacity of Muslim £25,000 (10/11) and representation of Muslim women faith and community leaders to Humber among decision making bodies in relate to young people more the region, through leadership effectively and to focus on issues training and mentoring. It is that are relevant to them as intended that this project model young British Muslims. will be replicated in other regions. Local Forums Against Extremism And Islamophobia

Supporting Faith Leaders Organisation Project description Proposed grant Organisation Project description Proposed grant Gateshead Gateshead Interfaith Forum will £9,925 (08/09) Interfaith work closely with Gateshead Luqman Extension of the pilot Imam £80,006 (08/09) Forum Metropolitan Borough Council Institute training programme funded in to set up a Gateshead forum 2007-08 to develop training against extremism and materials and deliver courses to Islamophobia, which will be run 20 senior imams over an 8-month as a pilot in 08/09. period Northampton The project will establish a local £14,800 (08/09) Psychology Imam Training Course to equip £60,000 from Race forum across Northamptonshire and Religion young, newly qualified Imams to CLG (08/09) Equality with representation from the Research engage with British culture and £60,000 from Council diversity of Muslim groups Group, humanitarian values, and to find DIUS (08/09) across the county. University of parallel values within the Qur’an. Cambridge Chiltern Chiltern’s Community Cohesion £3,000 (08/09) District and Prevent Forum will work Demos “Futures thinking” workshops £65,624 (08/09) Council with local Muslim groups to for Muslim young people and stimulate integration and improve Imams to explore the “future” of understanding of the local their interaction in the mosque. Muslim community as well as The workshops will be delivered celebrate the rich cultural in partnership with MINAB. diversity of the area. The group Al-Manaar Projects and education £50,000 (08/09) will also seek to involve the wider Muslim programme to promote a positive £50,000 (09/10) community by organising a major Cultural Islamic identity for Muslims in event in the community with high Heritage Britain that will create a future level speakers promoting peace Centre generation of British Muslim and harmony and positive faith leaders who understand discussion around violent British society and also have extremism. knowledge of relevant and robust Islamic teachings and Halton The project will work across the £3,000 (08/09) scholarship. Borough two local authority areas of Council Warrington and Halton to The To encourage, equip and £33,850 (08/09) promote awareness via local Dialogue empower Muslim community £32,700 (09/10) mosques, local Muslim women’s Society organisations, leaders, imams groups, Muslim youth initiatives and youth workers in the practice and Local Islamic trusts. The of interfaith and intercultural project will create a Halton/ dialogue, through a 6 element Warrington community group, project emphasising dialogue in which will address issues around Islam. This will include DIY violent extremism. The group will dialogue event manuals, sermons comprise local partners, such as for Muslim faith leaders and a the Police and the CDRP and website. local Muslim communities.

Urban Beacon Mosques project. £7,800 (08/09) Wokingham The project’s main aim will be to £3,000 (08/09) Nexus Building the capacity of mosques £94,400 (09/10) Borough promote a wider understanding in order to create “beacon £72,100 (10/11) Council of mainstream Muslim theology, mosques”, through the provision understanding and respect. of training, building skills of Wokingham Borough Council imams, trainee imams, chairs and will establish a Women Against secretaries of the organisations Violent Extremism Forum. The to build their knowledge and forum will be made up of women capacity to build resilience to from all communities and faiths, extremist ideologies. to include Muslim women in particular. The purpose of the Rahabar Increasing the number of £10,000 (08/09) group will be to promote a safe Trust (with Muslim faith leaders with skills £12,500 (09/10) environment for debate around the Urdu to act as speakers, spokespersons £12,500 (10/11) the issues of violent extremism, Times) and role models in society and in Islamophobia, identity and the media. community cohesion. WA 53 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 54

Local Forums Against Extremism And Islamophobia The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Organisation Project description Proposed grant of Justice (Lord Bach): It is anticipated that a consultation paper on the use of two counsel will issue in September Muslim The project aims to provide £3,000 (09/10) Welfare opportunities for Muslims to 2009. Association, come together, in safe forums, to Derbyshire explore the issues they are facing as Muslims living in the north- east of Derbyshire. This will be done by facilitating regular forum meetings for young Muslims, Department for International Muslim women and Muslim Development: DEL elders. Each of the forums will provide an opportunity and a Questions safe environment for the target groups to meet regularly to share Asked by Baroness Northover common cultural practices and life experiences as law-abiding To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the British Muslim citizens. Also, the Written Answer by Lord Tunnicliffe on 9 March forum meetings will enable group (WA200), what proportion of the £1 million transfer participants to provide mutual support and share concerns they to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was may have regarding any potential originally planned to come from the Department extremist activities/ideas in the for International Development’s budget. [HL2229] local area.

Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International Counter-Terrorism Act Development’s transfer of £1 million to the Foreign Question and Commonwealth Office (FCO) for the Returns and Reintegration Fund (RRF) was within the planned Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones allocation for the RRF for 2008/09. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance Asked by Baroness Northover they have given supervisory authorities or bodies in drawing up sector guidance for the purposes of To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the paragraphs 25(3) and 30(3) of Schedule 7 to the Written Answer by Lord Tunnicliffe on 9 March Counter-Terrorism Act 2008; and whether they will (WA 201) on the Department for International place a copy of any such guidance in the Library of Development’s departmental expenditure limit, in the House. [HL2743] which countries and for what particular projects the £1 million will be used; and why, given the Department for International Development’s expertise in developing The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury countries, the scheme is being administered by the (Lord Myners): HM Treasury has worked with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. [HL2310] Joint Money Laundering Steering Group (JMLSG) to assist in drafting guidance on Directions under the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International The guidance has been published by the JMLSG on Development’s funding for International Inspiration its website: www.jmlsq.orq.uk/ and has been formally is being used across all countries selected for funding submitted to HM Treasury for approval. from the initiative. To date this includes: India, Brazil, HM Treasury has also worked with HM Revenue Palau, Azerbaijan, Zambia, Trinidad and Tobago, and Customs to assist in drafting Guidance for Money Bangladesh, Ghana, Mozambique and Jordan. The Service Businesses on complying with Directions issued programme supports projects that directly engage young under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008 Schedule 7. This people in sport, and supports local sports clubs and is due to be published shortly. training programmes for sport coaches. It also works If HM Treasury makes a direction under Schedule 7 to engage governments to create a sustainable sports of the Counter-Terrorism Act it will issue any necessary policy. further guidance. DfID does not manage the programme directly because it is not a DfID initiative. It was initiated as a result of the Olympic bid in Singapore 2005 so it is co-ordinated by the UK Government’s Olympic Executive. Crime: Northern Ireland Funding is routed through the Department for Culture Question Media and Sport, but the programme is managed by UK Sport, Unicef and the British Council all of Asked by Lord Laird whom have experience in developing and delivering To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the international development projects. Written Answer by Lord Bach on 2 April (WA 260) DfID decided to provide funding to the programme concerning the use of two counsel in Northern Irish because of its focus on using sport to transform the courts, when the results from the related review will lives of children and young people, in schools and be published. [HL3088] communities in developing countries. WA 55 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 56

Department of Health: Arts/Health Group Membership of the Department’s Arts in Health group

Questions Equality and Human Rights Asked by Lord Howarth of Newport Healthcare Associated Infection and Cleanliness To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Healthcare Associated Infection and Cleanliness (Patient Environment) undertakings by the Secretary of State for Health Nursing in his speech at the Wallace Collection on 16 September Patient and Public Empowerment 2008 and in his letter to Lord Howarth of Newport Social Care, Local Government and Care Partnerships - Older People of 8 October 2008, what terms of reference have and Dementia, been established for the Arts/Health Group in the “Putting People First”, Mental Health Department of Health; what is its membership; Third Sector Partnership team Vascular Programme (Coronary Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, how often it has met since 16 September 2008; what Renal) policy issues it has examined; and whether it is Work - Nutrition - Physical Activity - Children and Young People willing and available to receive representations from and to meet outside individuals and organisations; and [HL2787] The department’s Arts in Health group has met To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether once since 16 September 2008. At that meeting on Professor Louis Appleby has taken up his appointment 10 November 2008 the issue of embedding arts and as the Department of Health’s lead official on arts health into department’s policy was discussed. While and health; and whether he or the Arts/Health the department supports several arts-related programmes, Group has offered policy advice to Ministers; and the group recognised that further work needs to be [HL2788] done to establish arts and health firmly within To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress departmental policy. There has been difficulty in has been made by the cross-departmental network identifying a single clinical lead to add legitimacy to in considering outstanding recommendations of the the work and there have been no dedicated resources 2007 Report of the Review of the Arts and Health available. Since the November meeting, funding has Working Group; and [HL2789] been secured for 2009-2010 to provide expert advice to support the development of the department’s internal To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their structure in relation to arts and health. objectives and procedures in the arts and health Professor Louis Appleby and Professor Rob Smith field. [HL2790] have been appointed the department’s joint leads on arts in health. Several briefings have been offered to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministers relating to Arts in Health matters, however, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The there have been no direct policy submissions. objectives of the department’s Arts in Health group, Progress on the eight recommendations of the 2007 which form the terms of reference, are to: Report of the Review of Arts and Health Working Develop a strategy for delivering the recommendations Group include the following. of the 2007 Report of the Review of Arts in Health Recommendation 1 Working Group; The Secretary of State for Health made a statement Develop further links with other government that the arts have a key role to play in healthcare in departments and agencies including the Department his speech at the Wallace Collection in London on for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and Arts 16 September 2009. Since resources have been made Council England; and available for 2009-2010, the department is now in a Help maintain the profile of arts and healthcare position to consider how arts and health can be included across the National Health Service and for wider more regularly in its policies, and whether systems and public health. incentives should be adapted to reflect the contribution of arts and health. The department’s Arts in Health group was established to co-ordinate internal arts in health activity and to Recommendation 2 deliver the stated objectives. Its remit as a group is not The joint publication of the department and Health to receive representations from and to meet outside and Arts Council England A prospectus for arts and individuals and organisations. Individual members of health was published in 2007 and this has already been the group, however, have met with several outside placed in the Library. individuals and organisations. Further consideration Recommendation 4 is being given to how the department can communicate The department has had initial discussions with the with the many arts in health organisations around the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and other country who would like to make representations. interested organisations in relation to identifying funding Membership of the department’s Arts in Health sources and identifying how arts and health can contribute group currently comprises representatives from the more fully to health and wider government objectives. programmes as listed in the following table. Recommendation 8 The department currently encourages NHS Membership of the Department’s Arts in Health group organisations proposing new build and refurbishment Allied Health Professions schemes to build in provision for arts and health through its existing guidance and the capital investment Care Services Improvement Partnership process. WA 57 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 58

The funding secured for 2009-2010 will enable the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, department to call on specific arts and health expertise, Department for Communities and Local Government which will support the development of objectives over (Baroness Andrews): The Government welcome the the coming year relating to both internal policy report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. development and external liaison with stakeholders It highlights the continuing need for local authorities and co-ordination of work in the expanding field of to press forward on work to identify appropriate locations arts and health. for authorised sites for Gypsies and Travellers. The delivery of authorised sites in appropriate locations will help to reduce the number of unauthorised sites Disabled Children and the tensions that these can cause with the settled community, as well as reduce the need for, and cost of, Question enforcement action. Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Health: Dementia consideration Ministers at the Department of Health and the Department for Children, Schools and Question Families have given to the implications for other Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester disabled children of the handling by statutory agencies of the case of Henry Thomson who, having been To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the diagnosed as autistic, had the assessment overturned Department of Health is considering the appointment by the Princess Alexandra Hospital NHS Trust in of a national clinical director for dementia. Essex; and what action they are taking. [HL2883] [HL2884]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): I Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): National understand the trust has been in recent communication leadership for the delivery of the strategy will continue with the family and has apologised. They have now to come from the department. We are looking at the reviewed their procedures in the light of national case for a national clinical director for dementia. guidelines and the need to continue to develop the best possible local practices. Disabled children receive services based not on their diagnoses, but on their needs as Health: Former UK Residents assessed by a multi-disciplinary team. Question Asked by Lord Laird Equality and Human Rights Commission To ask Her Majesty’s Government which countries Question provide annual payments to fund health treatment of those in the United Kingdom who previously Asked by Lord Ouseley worked in that country; under what arrangements; To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the and how the amounts paid are calculated. [HL2969] Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon) on 31 March (WA 220–21), The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, whether it is usual for staff satisfaction surveys to Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Under be made public by organisations in receipt of public European Union Regulations (1408/71), European funds. [HL2856] Economic Area (EEA) member states reimburse each other for the cost of providing healthcare to each other’s tourists, workers, pensioners and the dependants The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall of both groups. Under these regulations, payments are of Blaisdon): Some organisations in receipt of public made on either an actual or average cost basis, depending funds have chosen not to make public their staff on the category of the individual. The following table satisfaction survey results. There is no rule that shows the breakdown of claims by the United Kingdom organisations should do so, nor that such surveys are against each member state in 2007-08. conducted. There are no similar arrangements with regard to non-EEA countries. Gypsies and Travellers EEA Medical Costs: Claims by UK Against EEA Member States 2007-08 Question Actual Costs Lump Sum Asked by Baroness Whitaker Country Claims Claims Total Austria £486,000 £224,000 £710,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Belgium £2,528,000 £392,000 £2,920,000 response to the report of the Equality and Human Bulgaria £0 £0 £0 Rights Commission on Gypsies and Travellers’ Cyprus £0 £0 £0 accommodation needs, published on 18 March. Czech Republic £0 £0 £0 [HL3066] WA 59 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 60

EEA Medical Costs: Claims by UK Against The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry EEA Member States 2007-08 of Justice (Lord Bach): Ministers of the Ministry of Actual Costs Lump Sum Justice, and of the former Department for Constitutional Country Claims Claims Total Affairs, take the responsibility of being accountable to Denmark £0 £0 £0 Parliament through Select Committees very seriously. (Waiver) We have no record of any occasion when a Minister Estonia £0 £0 £0 refused to give evidence in the past five years. (Waiver) (2) Finland (3) £0 £0 £0 France £5,306,000 £281,000 £5,586,000 Housing Germany £16,000 £1,261,000 £1,277,000 Greece £78,000 £12,000 £90,000 Questions Hungary £11,000 £0 £11,000 Asked by Lord Ouseley (Waiver) (3) Iceland £0 £0 £0 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Ireland £9,413,000 £12,211,000 £21,624,000 public house-building schemes commenced in 2008; Italy £1,203,000 £4,091,000 £5,294,000 how many completions were effected; and how Latvia £0 £0 £0 many would have been needed in each category to Liechtenstein £0 £0 £0 make an impact in reducing the number of homeless Lithuania £0 £0 £0 people. [HL2925] Luxembourg £0 £0 £0 (4) Malta (Waiver) £0 £0 £0 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (3) Department for Communities and Local Government Netherlands £1,251,000 £1,554,000 £2,805,000 (Baroness Andrews): Details on the number of public Norway £0 £0 £0 (local authority) housing schemes are not held centrally. (Waiver) (3) However in calendar year 2008, there were 395 local Poland£0£0£0 authority housing starts, and 450 local authority housing Portugal £43,000 £10,000 £54,000 completions. Romania £0 £0 £0 Slovakia £0 £0 £0 Source: New build starts and completions from P2 Slovenia £236,000 £0 £236,000 quarterly returns submitted by local authorities to Spain £4,061,000 £55,000 £4,116,000 Communities and Local Government. Sweden £899,000 £260,000 £1,159,000 Although no formal assessment has been made as Switzerland £0 £67,000 £67,000 to the direct effect of local authority house building £25,500,000 £20,400,000 £45,900,000 on homelessness, all local authorities have a homelessness strategy in place to tackle and prevent homelessness. Notes The latest set of homelessness statistics (October - (1) Source: 2007-08 Resource Accounting and Budgeting (RAB) December 2008) show that homelessness acceptances exercise. Totals are based on estimates of the costs of European are down by 21 against the same quarter in 2007 and Economic Area (EEA) healthcare claims made annually for the purposes of provisions made in the Department of Health accounts those being placed in temporary accommodation had in accordance with Treasury resource accounting rules. also reduced by 15 per cent over the same period. The (2) excepting Article 22.1c (patient referral) & Article 55.1c Government have provided over £150 million of (industrial injury) claims. homelessness grant from 2008-2011 to local authorities (3) excepting Article 22.1 c (patient referral) claims. to tackle and prevent homelessness effectively, the (4) Previously waiver, regulations apply from 30 June 2008 biggest ever cash injection provided for homelessness services. (5) Totals for individual countries are rounded to nearest £1,000. Although RSLs are private sector bodies, many (6) Sub totals may not add up to rounded overall totals due to receive grant through the Homes and Communities rounding Agency to provide affordable homes for either social rented or low-cost home ownership. Since the early 1990s RSLs have been the major providers of low-cost, sub-market, rented housing and the main developers of new social housing for people on low incomes and Houses of Parliament: Select Committees in housing need. Question Asked by Lord Greaves Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answers by Baroness Andrews on 20 April To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the (HL2707–2711), what was the allocation of the Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness regional housing pot budget in each region in Royall of Blaisdon) on 20 April (WA 346), on how (a) 2008–09 and (b) 2009–10 to (1) the National many occasions and in what circumstances Ministers Affordable Housing Programme, (2) the Local of the Ministry of Justice and its predecessors have Authority Decent Homes Programme, and (3) the refused to give evidence to Parliamentary Select Private Sector Renewal and Regeneration Programme; Committees during the past five years. [HL2985] [HL2948] WA 61 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 62

To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation Written Answers by Baroness Andrews on 20 April (HL2707–2711), what was the allocation to each Bedford £317,000 £0 local housing authority in 2008–09 of (a) the Local Birmingham £21,500,000 £10,703,000 Authority Decent Homes Programme, and (b) the Blaby £150,000 £0 Private Sector Renewal and Regeneration Programme. Blackburn £3,508,000 £0 [HL2949] Blackpool £3,140,000 £306,000 Blyth Valley £1,896,000 £200,000 Baroness Andrews: The regional housing pot budget Bolsover £700,000 £239,000 for 2008-09 and 2009-10 was allocated to the regions Bolton £5,694,000 £0 as follows: Boston £570,000 £0 Bournemouth £1,133,000 £0 LA Private Bradford £25,960,000 £0 Affordable decent sector Braintree £193,200 £0 2008/09 (£m) housing homes renewal Total Breckland £216,400 £0 Brent (LB) £2,035,000 £0 North Yorkshire 52 17 23 92 Brentwood £97,000 £345,000 Yorkshire & Humber 99 27 54 180 Bridgnorth £200,000 £0 East Midlands 108 18 25 151 Brighton & Hove £5,173,000 £1,230,000 East of England 229 13 10 252 Bristol £1,105,000 £4,000,000 London 1195 150 44 1389 Broadland £165,500 £0 South East 405 11 20 436 Bromsgrove £63,000 £0 South West 229 9 19 257 Broxbourne £111,700 £0 West Midlands 144 23 49 216 Broxtowe £600,000 £0 North West 169 5 102 276 Burnley £2,462,000 £0 TOTAL 2629 272 347 3249 Bury £801,000 £0 Allocations for each region in 2009/10 are indicative and are Cambridge £159,200 £0 subject to change following announcements in the recent Budget and the performance of regions. Camden £0 £10,643,000 Cannock Chase £56,000 £420,000 National Canterbury £0 £324,000 Affordable LA Private Caradon £340,000 £0 Housing Decent Sector Carlisle £1,255,000 £0 2009/10 (£m) programme Homes Renewal Total Carrick £481,000 £257,000 North East 72 17 23 112 Castle Point £ 172,300 £0 Yorkshire & Humber 140 27 54 221 Charnwood £155,000 £0 East Midlands 138 17 30 185 Chelmsford £175,500 £0 East of England 319 13 15 347 Cheltenham £445,000 £0 London 1604 145 87 1636 Chester £446,000 £0 South East 547 11 30 588 Chesterfield £561,000 £900,000 South West 321 9 27 357 Chorley £312,000 £0 West Midlands 202 23 51 276 Christchurch £96,000 £0 North West 229 4 108 341 City of London £0 £40,000 TOTAL 3571 266 426 4263 City of York £876,000 £0 Colchester £229,300 £0 The table below shows the individual allocations to Congleton £242,900 £0 each local authority for Private Sector Renewal (PSR) Copeland £1,315,000 £0 and LA Decent Homes (LADH) for 2008/09. Corby £250,000 £0 Cotswold £307,000 £0 Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation Coventry £1,542,000 £0 Adur £0 £236,000 Craven £642,000 £0 Allerdale £1,797,000 £0 Crewe £495,600 £0 Alnwick District £0 £200,000 Croydon £3,000,000 £3,256,000 Council Dacorum £155,800 £0 Amber Valley £400,000 £0 Daventry £44,000 £0 Arun £230,000 £29,000 Derby £4,490,000 £0 Ashfield £1,000,000 £0 Derbyshire Dale £590,000 £0 Ashford £0 £289,000 Doncaster £2,222,000 £3,200,000 Babergh £146,600 £550,000 Dover £0 £187,000 Barnet £6,705,317 £2,208,000 Dudley £810,000 £3,212,000 Barnsley £5,490,000 £473,000 Durham City £0 £248,000 Barrow £2,570,000 £154,000 Council Basildon £336,200 £1,149,000 Ealing £0 £5,900,000 Bassetlaw £840,000 £440,000 Easington DC £3,874,000 £1,000,000 Bath UA £577,000 £0 East Cambridge £89,600 £0 WA 63 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 64

Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation

East Devon £419,000 £0 Liverpool £14,042,000 £0 East Dorset £165,000 £0 Luton £1,000, 800 £1,756,000 East Hertford £ 124,600 £0 Macclesfield £43 5,400 £0 East Lindsey £465,000 £0 Maldon £102,400 £0 East Riding £2,998,000 £668,000 Malvern Hills £ 139,000 £0 East Stafford £554,000 £0 Manchester £15,481,000 £2,540,000 Eden £238,700 £0 Mansfield £2,000,000 £0 Ellesmere Port E186,000 £275,000 Medway Council £0 £735,000 Elmbridge £265,000 £0 Melton £400,000 £300,000 Enfield £0 £4,797,000 Mendip £384,000 £0 Epping Forest £216,800 £0 Merton £0 £2,090,000 Erewash £450,000 £0 Mid Beds £106,400 £0 Exeter £583,000 0 Mid Devon £282,000 £0 Fareham £0 £123,000 Mid Suffolk £104,600 £500,000 Fenland £190,200 £0 Milton Keynes £0 £832,000 Forest Heath £79,200 £0 NE Derbyshire £250,000 £0 Forest of Dean £335,000 £0 Newark £464,000 £374,000 Fylde £276,500 £0 Newcastle City £0 £6,304,000 Gateshead Council £0 £2,422,000 Council Gedling £183,000 £606,000 Newcastle-u-Lyme £1,222,000 £0 Gloucester £639,000 £0 Newham £8,414,115 £16,410,000 Gravesham £0 £403,000 North Cornwall £3 84,000 £463,000 Great Yarmouth £309,400 £300,000 North East £0 £647,000 Derbyshire Greenwich (LB) £236,000 £6,742,000 North Devon £466,000 £0 Hackney £0 £17,700,000 North Dorset £186,000 £0 Halton £622,000 £0 North East Linc £2,368,000 £0 Hambleton £351,000 £0 North Hertford £162,000 £0 Hammersmith £6,356,833 £6,072,000 North Kesteven £400,000 £0 Harborough £250,000 £0 North Lincoln £1,414,000 £0 Haringey £0 £6,233,000 North Norfolk £276,400 £0 Harlow £116,800 £0 North Shropshire £228,000 £0 Harrogate £486,000 £930,000 North Somerset £714,000 £0 Harrow £0 £2,725,000 North Tyneside £0 £2,055,000 Havering £0 £2,114,000 Council Herefordshire £734,000 £0 North Warwick £120,000 £400,000 Hertsmere £114,400 £0 North Wiltshire £272,000 £0 High Peak £425,000 £0 Northampton £700,000 £500,000 Hillingdon (LB) £1,775,000 £0 Norwich £396,300 £2,300,000 Hull £0 £5,505,000 Nottingham £2,000,000 £5,600,000 Huntingdonshire £162,400 £0 Nuneaton £304,000 £0 Hyndburn £2,242,000 £0 NW Leicester £400,000 £0 Ipswich £317,000 £1,314,000 Oadby & Wigston £50,000 £110,000 Isles of Scilly £4,000 £22,000 Oldham £3,628,000 £0 Islington £0 £9,112,000 Oswestry £129,000 £32,000 Kennet £155,000 £0 Oxford £0 £546,000 Kensington and £0 £5,100,000 Chelsea Pendle £2,732,000 £0 Kerrier £657,000 £0 Penwith £697,000 £0 Kettering £1,540,000 £0 Peterborough £348,000 £0 Kings Lynn £351,400 £0 Plymouth £1,045,000 £2,076,000 Kingston U Hull £1,537,000 £0 Poole £255,000 £727,000 Kingston upon £0 £1,439,000 Portsmouth £2,495,000 £1,913,000 Thames Preston £2,033,000 £0 Knowsley £2,984,000 £0 Purbeck £154,000 £0 Lambeth £0 £8,757,000 Reading £0 £26,000 Lancaster £1,433,000 £217,000 Redditch £129,000 £0 Leeds £0 £7,600,000 Reigate and £197,000 £0 Leicester £2,500,000 £5,500,000 Banstead Lewes £0 £259,000 Restormel £522,000 £0 Lewisham £0 £2,697,000 Ribble Valley £200,000 £0 Lichfield £106,000 £0 Richmondshire £236,000 £80,000 Lincoln £275,000 £1,020,000 Rochdale £3,180,000 £0 WA 65 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 66

Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation Local Authority PSR Allocation LADH Allocation

Rochford £96,800 £0 Thurrock £291,800 £1,354,000 Rossendale £552,000 £0 Tonbridge £2,438,000 £0 Rotherham £2,685,000 £1,264,000 Torbay £689,000 £0 Rugby £136,000 £0 Torridge £323,000 £0 Rushcliffe £89,000 £0 Tower Hamlets £0 £15,500,000 Rutland £77,000 £231,000 Trafford £1,059,800 £0 Ryedale £356,000 £0 Uttlesford £74,000 £0 Salford £4,646,000 £141,000 Vale Royal £457,000 £0 Salisbury £403,000 £0 Wakefield £22,000 £0 Sandwell £2,917,000 £1,910,000 Walsall £3,328,000 £0 Scarborough £246,000 £0 Waltham Forest £0 £6,680,000 Sedgefield Borough £0 £213,000 Wandsworth £4,000,000 £0 Council Warrington £494,000 £283,000 Sedgemoor £182,000 £661,000 Warwick £167,000 £0 Sefton £4,985,000 £0 Watford £157,300 £0 Selby £286,000 £220,000 Waveney £352,500 £0 Sheffield £5,918,000 £6,300,000 Wealden £0 £334,000 Shepway £0 £260,000 Wear Valley District £0 £800,000 Shrewsbury £194,000 £0 Council Solihull £3,009,000 £0 Wellingborough £150,000 £0 South Beds £178,200 £0 Welwyn Hatfield £113,700 £0 South Cambridge £117,300 £0 West Devon £251,000 £0 South Derby £642,000 £0 West Dorset £316,000 £0 South Gloucs £638,000 £0 West Lancashire £511,700 £0 South Hams £333,000 £0 West Lindsey £550,000 £0 South Holland £322,000 £506,000 West Somerset £288,000 £0 South Kesteven £490,000 £545,000 West Wiltshire £258,000 £0 South Lakeland £532,000 £0 Westminster (LB) £6,468,000 £0 South Norfolk £161,800 £0 Weymouth £282,000 £0 South Northants £60,000 £0 Wigan £4,059,000 £0 South Ribble £261,800 £0 Windsor £2,952,000 £0 South Shropshire £200,000 £0 Wirral £5,121,000 £0 South Somerset £444,000 £0 Wolverhampton £2,833,000 £2,700,000 South Stafford £20,000 £0 Worcester £192,000 £0 South Tyneside £7,871,000 £2,326,000 Wychavon £156,000 £0 Southampton £1,881,000 £1,496,000 Wyre £750,000 £0 Southend-on-Sea £498,700 £1,000,000 Wyre Forest £269,000 £0 Southwark £4,915,625 £12,526,000 York £0 £1,000,000 St Albans £144,400 £918,000 TOTALS £347,386,000 £272,418,000 St Edmundsbury £154,900 £0 St Helens £2,728,000 £0 Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Stafford £173,000 £0 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they Staffs Moorland £293,000 £0 needed the permission of the European Commission Stevenage £117,400 £563,000 before implementing the Homeowners Mortgage Stockport £649,600 £754,000 Support Scheme allowing homeowners to defer Stockton £9,252,000 £1,210,000 70 per cent of interest payments on their mortgages Stoke-on-Trent £5,371,000 £3,199,000 for a maximum period of two years. [HL3017] Stratford £171,000 £0 Stroud £308,000 £0 Baroness Andrews: The EC Treaty provides that a Suffolk Coastal £160,600 £0 member state must not put a proposed state aid measure Sunderland £129,000 £0 into effect until the Commission has made a decision Sutton (LB) £194,110 £l,244,000 approving the aid. Under the Homeowners Mortgage Swindon £399,000 £500,000 Support Scheme, the Government give a guarantee to Tame side £1,771,000 £0 lenders which has the potential to distort competition. Tamworth £58,000 £480,000 The Commission approved the aid on 20 April 2009. Taunton Deane £424,000 £620,000 Teignbridge £513,000 £0 Iraq: Foetal Abnormalities Telford £1,781,000 £0 Question Tendring £427,200 £671,000 Asked by Baroness Tonge Tewkesbury £147,000 £0 Thanet £4,444,000 £1,703,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what reports they have received concerning the rise in foetal Three Rivers £89,000 £0 abnormalities in Fallujah. [HL3166] WA 67 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 68

Lord Tunnicliffe: The Department for International of the Licensing Act 2003 to music and dance Development (DfID) has not received specific reports events is uniform, and (b) intend to clarify the concerning a rise in foetal abnormalities in Fallujah, definitions of regulated entertainment within the although we are aware of some reports of a rise in Licensing Act 2003. [HL2869] foetal abnormalities in recent years in Iraq. Due to the unstable security situation and consequent constraints The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for on access by aid agencies to affected populations, Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord there is currently no reliable independent data on this. Carter of Barnes): The application of the Licensing Act 2003 (the Act) is a matter for licensing authorities Iraq: Gay People in the first instance. Where licensing authorities are required to make decisions on the application of the Question regime to particular events, they have to take into Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno account the specific circumstances of each case, with a view to promoting the licensing objectives. This means To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the that the application of the Act to music and dance will Written Answer by Lord West of Spithead on 22 April not necessarily be uniform in all circumstances. The (HL2772), to what extent they take into consideration Department for Culture, Media and Sport has no reports of the persecution of gay men and women current plans to amend either the definitions of regulated when deciding to return Iraqi individuals with no entertainment within the Act or the relevant sections right to stay in the United Kingdom. [HL3020] of the guidance issued under Section 182 of the Act.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): The UK Border Agency Mental Health: Northern Ireland continually monitors the situation in all asylum intake Question countries, gathering information from a wide range of Asked by Lord Hylton recognised and respected sources including governmental and non-governmental organisation and media reports. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the No credible reports of mistreatment will be ignored. Bamford Review of mental health has yet reported; Asylum and human rights decision makers take full and, if not, when its report is expected. [HL2918] account of this information when deciding whether an individual would be at risk on return to their country of origin and therefore whether they are in need of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, international protection. Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Responsibility for health service issues in Northern The UK Border Agency will only seek to enforce Ireland, including the Bamford Review of Mental the return of individuals who do not need such protection. Health and Learning Disability, rests with the Northern Legal Aid Ireland Assembly. Question Asked by Lord Laird Metal Detection To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Question costs of Christopher Donaldson, who brought an Asked by Lord Redesdale action for judicial review when prohibited from wearing an Easter Lily in prison common areas, are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions being met through legal aid; if so, which body they have had with Natural England about the authorised the funding; under what criteria; and advice Natural England provides to land owners how many counsel were engaged on his behalf. who apply for permission to hold metal detecting [HL2972] rallies under those Entry Level Stewardship agreements that have been renewed since October 2008; and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry what advice Natural England are providing to land of Justice (Lord Bach): The Northern Ireland Legal owners as a result. [HL3036] Services Commission is responsible for determining. applications for civil legal aid in Northern Ireland and does so in accordance with the provisions of the Legal The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Ireland) Order Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food 1981. The applicant in this case was in receipt of legal and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): No aid and one counsel was engaged on his behalf. recent discussions have been held with Natural England about the advice they provide to landowners who Licensing Act apply for permission to hold metal detecting rallies under those agreements that have been renewed into Question Entry Level Stewardship (ELS) since October 2008. Asked by Lord Clement-Jones Natural England issues comprehensive advice on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, further metal detecting on its website, together with advice in to the Written Answer by Lord Carter of Barnes on the ELS handbook. Natural England requires twelve 1 April (WA242), they (a) consider that the application weeks’ advance notification for large-scale events. WA 69 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 70

For agreements starting since October 2008, the In 2008-09 north-west primary care trusts (PCTs) ELS handbook advises that with the exception of provided £110,000 to University Hospital of South Scheduled Monuments, Sites of Special Scientific Interest Manchester NHS Foundation Trust for the part-year (SSSIs), and known archaeological sites under grassland, appointment of a full-time consultant adult allergist metal detecting is allowed on land within an ELS with additional nursing and other support staff. A agreement provided this is undertaken in accordance further £115,000 was allocated in 2009-10 to account with the best principles contained in the latest version for the full-year effect of these appointments. A total of the Code of Practice for Responsible Metal Detecting of £256,000 has been allocated in 2009-10 to Alder in England and Wales, and that all finds are reported to Hey NHS Foundation Trust and Central Manchester the Portable Antiquities Scheme. University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust (£128,000 each) for the part-year appointment of full-time consultant paediatric allergists, nursing and other support staff. Muslims North-west PCTs are currently considering how to Question develop a means by which allergy services can be developed, supported and sustained through a tariff Asked by Baroness Warsi based approach. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support The Manchester Academic Health Services Centre they have provided to the Mosques and Imams (MAHSC) is a collaboration between the NHS and National Advisory Board. [HL3121] the University of Manchester and will help drive improvements in the quality of healthcare, including in allergy services. Academic allergists, who are world The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, leaders in their field of expertise, will play a key Department for Communities and Local Government leadership role in the north-west pilot allergy project (Baroness Andrews): The Department for Communities in education, training and research. They will also and Local Government has provided funding to the support the development of standards and monitoring Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board (MINAB) mechanisms, working with clinical colleagues, for allergy to enable the development of a consistent set of standards service providers within the north-west project. for mosques across the country in order to improve their services and work with communities. This funding The north-west regional model for the provision of is as follows: £75,600 in 2007-08; £116,000 in 2008-09; allergy services will involve the development of agreed and £58,000 in 2009-10. regional protocols for the referral and management of services in primary, secondary and tertiary care. In addition, NHS Manchester, the lead PCT for the pilot, NHS: Allergy Services has started work to review the opportunities for service Questions design in primary care to improve access, experience and outcomes for patients with allergies. Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff NHS: Pharmaceutical Services To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the level of funding identified and required to support Questions the development of allergy services in the pilot area Asked by Earl Howe of north west England. [HL2879] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on 1 funding has been committed by Primary Care Trusts April (WA 245), when they expect to complete the in north west England to support the development initial discussion stage of the proposals to introduce of allergy services in that pilot area. [HL2880] generic substitution by pharmacists of branded To ask Her Majesty’s Government what medicines prescribed under the National Health contribution the development of the Manchester Service. [HL2954] Academic Health Services Centre will make to their To ask Her Majesty’s Government in connection pilot allergy project in north west England. with their proposals for generic substitution by [HL2881] pharmacists of branded medicines prescribed under the National Health Service, (a) what method they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their will use to assess which categories of medicines pilot allergy project in north west England will should, on clinical grounds, be excluded from the address primary care provision, education and training. scope of the proposals; (b) by what means prescribers [HL2882] will be enabled to opt out of generic substitution; and (c) what safeguards will be put in place under The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the rules of the generic substitution scheme to Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The ensure that clinical judgment is not overridden. Department provided £60,000 in 2008-09 to support a [HL2955] dedicated project manager to take forward the proposed improvements in allergy service provision in north-west The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, England. This resource will also be used to support Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Initial the official launch of the North West Allergy Network discussions with key stakeholders and interested parties in autumn 2009. Further resources to progress work are still under way and are expected to continue into are currently under consideration by the department. early summer. These discussions are informing the WA 71 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 72 development of the government’s proposals on the allocation of mobile phones having assessed the introducing generic substitution, including whether need against the criteria. The qualifying criteria are as any medicines and, if so, which should be excluded follows: from the arrangements, what “opt-outs” should apply Working outside Normal Hours - The jobholder and what safeguards need to be put in place. needs to be contactable outside normal hours to deal with work-related matters and/or the jobholder needs to make work-related calls outside normal working Northern Ireland Office: Hire Cars hours; or Question Working off-site - The jobholder is regularly required to work while away from NIO premises and without Asked by Lord Laird access to a landline (e.g. official travel) and needs to be in contact with or contactable by the office. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much has the Northern Ireland Office paid for private hire cars in each of the last ten financial years. Northern Ireland Office: Taxis [HL2933] Question Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The following table Asked by Lord Laird shows how much the Northern Ireland Office, excluding To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the its agencies and executive NDPBs, paid to suppliers of Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness private hire cars in each financial year since 2000-01, Royall of Blaisdon) on 18 March (WA 51) concerning where costs have been charged to the private hire car the details of costs of taxis for the Northern Ireland expenditure code. Office being placed in the Library of the House, on what date the information was placed in the Library Financial Year Amount Paid (£’000) of the House. [HL3045] 2000-01 221 2001-02 109 The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall 2002-03 252 of Blaisdon): The statement in the Answer provided on 2003-04 355 18 March, Official Report, col. WA 51, that the information 2004-05 407 had been placed in the Library was made in error. 2005-06 342 I apologise for any confusion this caused. 2006-07 385 2007-08 227 2008-09 83 Northern Ireland: Weapons Question There are also private hire car costs within general Asked by Lord Tebbit travel expenditure codes. To extract these costs, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government who owns the verify that they related to private hire cars, would weapons, ammunitions and explosives reportedly exceed the disproportionate cost threshold of £750. placed beyond use by the Commission on During 2007-08 the department adopted a policy to Disarmament in Northern Ireland. [HL2792] make greater use of taxis rather than private hire cars where it is more cost-effective. This policy has led to an increase in taxi costs but has generated estimated The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall whole year net savings of £150,000. of Blaisdon): The Decommissioning Scheme, based on Section 3(1) of the Northern Ireland Arms Figures are not held for the period prior to 2000-01. Decommissioning Act 1997, provides that it is for the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning to determine the method by which Northern Ireland Office: Mobile Phones arms are put completely beyond use. Question There are a number of methods at the disposal of the Commission to enable it to exercise its duties. Asked by Lord Laird Where decommissioning has involved the destruction and disposal of weapons, the issue of ownership does To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the not arise. Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon) on 20 April (HL2453) concerning staff in the Northern Ireland Office, who decides if Population a member of staff requires a mobile phone and how. [HL2931] Question Asked by Lord Laird Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Northern Ireland To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Office (NIO) has a policy that sets out criteria for the they have made of whether the population of the provision of departmental mobile phones to staff. world can continue to increase at the current rate. Heads of division or unit are responsible for authorising [HL2598] WA 73 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 74

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The existing range of Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government have community penalties and suspended sentences means not made any recent assessment of whether the world that only around 8 per cent of convicted offenders are population can continue to increase at the current sentenced to immediate custody. rate. Population assessments have proven to be unreliable We are committed to doing more. From 1 April over the medium to long term, due to unpredictable 2009 electronic monitoring has been available to the changes in global fertility and mortality rates. The courts in Northern Ireland and offers an alternative to maximum sustainable world population is almost custodial remand in appropriate cases. impossible to determine accurately as it is strongly Plans are also well advanced for improving fine dependent on technological advances and their application. enforcement and providing an alternative to custody for fine default. We will be announcing shortly a wider package of reform that is targeted towards all offenders Presbyterian Mutual Society of Northern who are fined, but may have a particular relevance to Ireland women offenders. Question In addition, plans are well advanced for a range of Asked by Lord Kilclooney alternatives to prosecution for low-level offences. A very successful model of statutory youth To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions conferencing has been operating in Northern Ireland they have had with the government of the Republic for some time, reducing the time of custody for young of Ireland about people in that country who have people. invested in the Presbyterian Mutual Society in Northern Ireland. [HL3081] There are plans to develop tailored restorative interventions with female offenders both as an alternative The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury to prosecution and as a targeted element of certain (Lord Myners): Treasury Ministers and officials hold a community disposals. The proposals are contained in wide variety of discussions with international counterparts the Draft Strategy for the Management of Women as part of the process of policy development and Offenders published for consultation on 23 February, delivery. As was the case with previous Administrations, a copy of which has been placed in the Library of the it is not the Government’s practice to provide details House. of all such meetings. Prisoners Prisons: Northern Ireland Question Question Asked by Lord Ramsbotham Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they prisoners currently held in custody have exceeded will avoid increasing the capacity of the Northern their tariff. [HL2966] Irish prisons, so as to devote resources to the education, care and resettlement of offenders. [HL2919] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): On 24 April 2009, 4,612 Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: In December 2007 indeterminate sentence prisoners were recorded as plans were announced for the provision of 400 additional being detained in custody beyond the expiry of their prison places over the following three years and the tariff. Such prisoners do not fall to be released redevelopment of Magilligan prison thereafter. This is automatically on expiry of their tariff; they can be needed to relieve overcrowding, to replace unsatisfactory released only if the independent Parole Board is satisfied accommodation and to take account of projected that the risk which they present is such that it may be increases in the prisoner population. safely managed in the community. Public protection is The provision of training, education and resettlement the board’s overriding consideration. opportunities are important elements of the existing This figure includes those who have been released regimes which are funded from the overall prison then subsequently recalled. service budget. These figures are taken from the Public Protection In addition, NIPS have been provided with £4.7 million Unit database within the National Offender Management additional resources over the Comprehensive Spending Service. As with any large-scale recording system, it is Review period for the implementation of the Criminal subject to possible errors arising from either data Justice (NI) Order 2008 which rightly emphasises public entry or processing. protection and addressing offending behaviour. Prisoners: Northern Ireland Question Questions for Written Answer Asked by Lord Hylton Question Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have in Northern Ireland to provide more and To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the better alternatives to custody, together with restorative Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness justice, for non-violent and repeat offenders, including Royall of Blaisdon) on 20 April (HL2524) concerning women and fine and licence defaulters. [HL2973] the answering of written questions for the Northern WA 75 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 76

Ireland Office, which Ministers decided that questions The Minister of State, Department for Transport to non-departmental public bodies should be dealt (Lord Adonis): The invitation to tender for the East with directly by the body instead of requiring the Midlands franchise included a service level commitment answer to be printed in the Official Report; and on for this route which was based on previous service what basis and where that decision was taken. patterns and levels of rail usage. The invitation to [HL2932] tender stated “bidders should assume the same timing for crossing the east coast main line at Newark as in the December 2006 timetable, but otherwise timings Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The policy was determined and calling patterns may be adjusted to fit with Bidder’s by both Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office: the other timetable proposals”. Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Shaun Woodward) and the Minister of State for Northern The Department for Transport took this approach Ireland (Paul Goggins). in order to allow the operator some commercial flexibility with a view to improving overall reliability and value The noble Lord will be aware of the Answer given for money. As with all franchise competitions, local on 5 November 2008, Official Report, col. WA 70, and regional priorities are put forward by local authorities which stated that where questions relate to operational with passenger transport responsibilities. Consultees matters that are the responsibility of public bodies are asked to supply evidence to inform the specification, and not the responsibility of Ministers, the answer and local authorities are particularly encouraged to ought to come from those bodies. provide information on any future schemes (such as housing developments) which are likely to affect demand. The current timetable was drawn up on the commercial Questions for Written Answer: Northern and operational judgement of the operator, who consulted Ireland Office on timetable changes which were made in December 2008. Question Asked by Lord Bradshaw Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment will meet interested local people to explore means they have made of the length of time the Northern by which the train service between Lincoln and Ireland Office takes to answer parliamentary Questions. Nottingham and further afield might be enhanced. [HL3096] [HL3146] Lord Adonis: Interested parties should approach Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I have nothing further East Midlands Trains to investigate the scope for to add to the Answers provided on 20 April, Official changes to services. I would be happy to discuss the Report, col. WA 365, and 27 April, Official Report, outcome of any discussions with the train operator. col. WA 19. Asked by Lord Bradshaw To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 2 April (WA Railways: East Midland Trains 284), what studies they have made of links between Questions demand for a railway connection and the population of the places connected; and, if a link has been Asked by Lord Bradshaw demonstrated, on what basis any contrary decision is made. [HL3093] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 2 April (WA284), Lord Adonis: The Department for Transport models and having regard to the demand elasticity attaching potential future demand for rail and considers the to train journey times between principal stations, results when specifying services. Population change on what basis was the number of intermediate stops will affect rail demand, but population is not the specified between Lincoln and Nottingham. determining factor: other key factors include the [HL3091] employment opportunities in local or regional centres, the propensity of different social groups to travel, car To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the ownership and road access to potential destination Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 2 April (WA283), towns. whether the specification of the East Midlands Decisions on calling patterns are steered by a wide Trains service between Lincoln and Nottingham number of considerations, alongside demand, including takes into account the potential for commuting affordability, value for money and operational factors between those cities, and Newark; and how the such as rail performance and rolling stock. evidence for that specification was obtained. [HL3092] Railways: Fares To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Question Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 2 April (WA284), whether the specification of train services between Asked by Lord Bradshaw Nottingham, Newark and Lincoln was decided To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much following consideration of any evidence; and if so, regulated rail fares have increased since 1997. how that evidence was obtained. [HL3094] [HL3227] WA 77 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 78

The Minister of State, Department for Transport Asked by Lord Jopling (Lord Adonis): The Office of Rail Regulation publishes a fares index in National Rail Trends, which is available To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many from its website at www.rail-reg.gov.uk. Up until 2008 vehicles are currently used by Traffic Officers; what regulated fares have been below accumulated inflation. is the cost of putting each fully-equipped vehicle on The next edition of National Rail Trends is due in the the road; and for how many hours each vehicle is on summer of 2009. average in use each week. [HL3065]

Roads: Traffic Officers Lord Adonis: The traffic officer fleet currently comprises a total of 195 vehicles. Of these: Questions 154 are available for use by traffic officers Asked by Lord Jopling 32 are used by team managers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what functions 9 are used for training on main roads, trunk roads and motorways are Traffic officer vehicles have an average monthly given to Traffic Officers; and what functions they lease fee of £1,450, excluding VAT. Team manager do not have which remain with the police. [HL3063] vehicles have an average monthly lease fee of £900, excluding VAT.Training vehicles have an average monthly The Minister of State, Department for Transport lease of £700, excluding VAT. (Lord Adonis): The role of the traffic officer is to deal The cost of conversion of a base vehicle to a full with routine incidents on the motorways in England traffic officer specification can vary between £6,000 and on some all-purpose trunk roads, and to assist the and £11,000 excluding VAT, subject to the extent of emergency services in dealing with traffic management equipment utilised from an old replaced vehicle. at the more serious incidents. Traffic officers, in the The average weekly use of each traffic officer patrol seven regional control centres, set signs and signals vehicle is 100 hours. and answer emergency roadside telephones. This involves maintaining and improving the movement of traffic on relevant roads and to prevent or reduce the effect of congestion, which may involve stopping Social Care: Adults and directing traffic, removing debris and other Questions obstructions from the carriageway, closing lanes and Asked by Lord King of West Bromwich carriageways and management of traffic. Traffic officers do not have an enforcement role. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what safeguards The police remain responsible for tackling crime, they propose to introduce to combat alleged elderly investigating collisions, and enforcing the law. abuse as highlighted in the Panorama programme ″ ″ Asked by Lord Jopling on Britain’s Homecare Scandal of 9 April; and whether they will introduce the public provision of To ask Her Majesty’s Government to whom care homes for the most vulnerable older people. Traffic Officers are responsible; how many are employed [HL2994] in the United Kingdom by region or police authority; To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and what is the total annual cost of Traffic Officers. will ensure that social care companies are paid for [HL3064] their services only where those are judged to be satisfactory by the close relatives of the elderly Lord Adonis: The Highways Agency, as an executive person whose care is being provided. [HL2995] agency of the Department for Transport, is responsible for the Traffic Officer Service. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Traffic Officer Service covers the strategic road Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The network in England. The number of traffic officers Government consider that every older person is entitled employed by Highways Agency region, as at 31March to high-quality, safe and dignified care, whether it is 2009, is as follows: provided in their own home or anywhere else. Anything Yorkshire & North East 206 less is completely unacceptable. North West 310 We established an independent system of statutory East Midlands 134 regulation, registration and inspection of social care West Midland 218 provision and introduced national minimum standards (NMS) for care homes, domiciliary care and adult East 320 placements. The Regulations and NMS are intended South East 239 to ensure vulnerable and older people can live in a safe South West 184 environment, where their rights and dignity are respected The estimated cost of traffic officers in England for and staff are properly trained. 2008-09 is £50.65 million. This includes pay, overtime, The previous regulator of social care, the Commission travel time, and travel and subsistence and includes on for Social Care Inspection (CSCI), reported that the road traffic officers, control room traffic officers, traffic quality of care, measured against the NMS, improved officer managers, and 35 support staff. in every year since they were first introduced. WA 79 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 80

The new integrated regulator of health and adult The CQC has a wide range of enforcement powers social care, the Care Quality Commission (CQC), is under the Care Standards Act 2000. These include responsible for registering, inspecting and regulating issuing notices requiring improvement within a specified all social care providers. It has a wide range of enforcement time period, prosecuting providers for failing to provide powers under the Care Standards Act 2000. These proper care and even closing down a provider by include issuing notices requiring improvement within cancelling its registration. a specified time period, prosecuting providers for failing From 2010, the CQC will be introducing a new to provide proper care and even closing down a provider system of registration under the Health and Social by cancelling its registration. Care Act 2008. This will give it additional powers to From 2010, the CQC will be introducing a new fine providers and suspend those which are not providing system of registration under the Health and Social acceptable levels of care. Care Act 2008. This will give it additional powers to Local councils are responsible for the provision of fine providers and suspend those which are not providing social care services and for the quality of those services, acceptable levels of care. whether provided directly or via contracting with private Local councils are responsible for the provision of and independent organisations. Anyone who is not social care services and for the quality of those services, satisfied with the quality of care they receive from whether provided directly or via contracting with private their council is entitled to pursue the matter via the and independent organisations. Anyone who is not social services complaints procedure and ask the Local satisfied with the quality of care they receive from Government Ombudsman to investigate. their council is entitled to pursue the matter via the social services complaints procedure and ask the Local Government Ombudsman to investigate. Sport: Free Swimming The department is leading a review of the No Secrets statutory guidance on safeguarding of older Question and vulnerable people. The public consultation phase Asked by Lord Greaves of the review closed on 31 January 2009, following unprecedented levels of engagement from a wide range To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Councils of organisations and individuals, including older people in England have chosen not to provide free swimming and those with mental health needs and learning for those aged (a) under 16 and (b) over 60; and, in disabilities, together with their representatives. There each case, what reasons they have given for not was also active participation from several thousand doing so. [HL2944] professional workers in the police, social work, the National Health Service and voluntary, legal and housing sectors. The department is presently analysing some The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 500 detailed written responses which were received. Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Carter of Barnes): A full list of eligible local authorities, giving details of participation, is available on the DCMS website at: Social Care: Companies http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/sport/ Question 5810.aspx Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Non-participating local authorities gave a range of reasons for non-participation, including, for example, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they that the funding offered was, in their view, insufficient, monitor private elderly care companies employed or they were unable to meet the terms and conditions by local councils. [HL3024] attached to that funding.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): All St Helena: Airport social care providers, whether in the public, private or Questions voluntary sectors and whether they provide care directly to service users or on behalf of local councils, are Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham required to register with the independent regulator, To ask Her Majesty’s Government for what purpose the Care Quality Commission (CQC). Option B is included in the consultation document The CQC regulates—registers and inspects—all on an airport for St Helena; and whether they will providers according to statutory regulations and national delete that option. [HL3097] minimum standards (NMS), which govern the quality and safety of care and are intended to ensure that service users can live in a safe environment, where Lord Tunnicliffe: In the current climate we must their rights and dignity are respected and staff are weigh up the short-term financial costs of an airport properly trained. for St Helena compared with alternative access options. The previous regulator of social care, the Commission We want to hear how interested parties view the for Social Care Inspection (CSCI), reported that the advantages and disadvantages of this option before quality of care, measured against the NMS, improved making a decision. The Government will not delete in every year since they were first introduced. Option B. WA 81 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 82

Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Lord West of Spithead: Every applicant who registers an asylum claim with the UK Border Agency is required To ask Her Majesty’s Government in assessing to go through a screening process to establish the responses to the consultation on an airport for applicant’s identity and nationality. Where relevant to St Helena, what weight they will give to submissions the asylum claim, the applicant’s ethnic origin will be from individuals or organisations who (a) have further investigated at an in-depth asylum interview to direct involvement with the island, (b) reside, have discuss the reasons for seeking asylum. An assessment resided or wish to return to reside on the island, of the available evidence will then be made in the light and (c) have visited the island, against those with of the country of origin information and any expert no history of interest or involvement in the island. evidence submitted by the applicant. [HL3100] A decision will then be reached as to the individual’s protection needs under the 1951 Refugee Convention Lord Tunnicliffe: The Secretary of State for and the European Convention on Human Rights. International Development will consider the full range Asked by Baroness Northover of views expressed through the consultation before making a decision on the most appropriate access To ask Her Majesty’s Government in light of option for St Helena in the current economic climate. recent evidence of mistreatment and arbitrary arrest Those with an interest in access to St Helena, or in the of Darfuris upon their return to Sudan, whether overall use of the Government’s development budget, they will consider reviewing their asylum policy. are welcome to submit a response. [HL3051] The consultation is being conducted in line with the Government Code of Practice on Consultation, and the guidance published by the Better Regulation Executive Lord West of Spithead: We are committed to providing (Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory protection for those individuals found to need it in Reform). Consultation is not a public vote, but rather accordance with our obligations under international a qualitative exercise to seek evidence to help deliver law. We closely monitor the situation in Sudan and, the most effective and efficient policy within the constraints based on the latest available evidence, do not accept set. All submissions from interested parties will be that all Darfuris should be afforded asylum in the UK. taken into account and given due weight. A summary Neither do we accept that it is unsafe to return all of all responses received will be published by 31 October, Darfuris to Khartoum. Protection needs vary between before the final decision on access to St Helena is individuals, which is why each asylum claim is carefully made. considered on its individual merits. Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Sudan: Asylum Seekers will consider imposing a moratorium on returns of Questions Darfuri asylum seekers to Sudan until their safety can be guaranteed. [HL3052] Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current policy towards Darfuri asylum seekers of Lord West of Spithead: At present, we are not enforcing the return of non-Arab Darfuri asylum non-Arab origin. [HL3049] seekers until a forthcoming country guidance case has been determined by the Asylum and Immigration The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Tribunal. Our general position however remains that Office (Lord West of Spithead): All asylum claims we believe the right approach is to consider protection including those from non-Arab Darfuris are considered need on an individual case basis. on their individual merits against the background of We do not accept that we should make the presumption the latest country information and relevant caselaw. that each and every asylum seeker who presents themselves Where an individual is identified by the case decision as being from a particular country, regardless of their making process and the independent appeals process individual circumstances, should automatically be afforded not to be in need of international protection, they the protection of being allowed to remain in the UK. would be expected to leave the UK voluntarily and the UK Border Agency would not attempt to prevent such returns. However, enforced returns of non-Arab Darfuris to Sudan have been suspended since July Tennyson Obih 2008 and will continue to be suspended until a forthcoming Questions country guidance case has been determined by the Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Asylum and Immigration Tribunal. Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Tennyson Obih was diagnosed as paranoid To ask Her Majesty’s Government what form of schizophrenic within the United Kingdom; what assessment is undertaken when investigating the medical treatment and supervision was available to ethnic background of non-Arab Darfuri asylum him; and whether the police had been notified of seekers. [HL3050] his location and condition. [HL2862] WA 83 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 84

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any Young Offenders: Dyslexia recommendations, including for commitment within a secure environment, had been made by Tennyson Questions Obih’s medical and supervisory team regarding his To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the failure to comply with advice and instructions relating Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on to his treatment and his failure to cooperate with 26 February (WA 106) regarding Hydebank Wood community nurses. [HL2863] Young Offenders Centre, during the three years referred to (a) how many inmates were screened for dyslexia; (b) how many inmates were identified as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, showing indications for dyslexia; (c) what was the Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): It total cost of the screening; and (d) what was the would be inappropriate to disclose any information total cost of the screening per inmate so identified. about an individual patient’s diagnosis or treatment as it would be a breach of patient confidentiality. [HL2888] The East of England Strategic Health Authority To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the (SHA) has confirmed that it will be commissioning an Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on independent investigation into this case. This investigation 17 March (WA 34) regarding Hydebank Wood will be independent of those organisations and individuals YoungOffenders Centre, (a) what method of screening who have been involved in the care and treatment of for dyslexia was applied during the last three years; Tennyson Obih. Once the independent investigation is (b) who conducted the screening; and (c) what completed, the SHA will make public any action was taken as a result of the screening by the recommendations, which will be considered by the staff of the centre and others in relation to those local National Health Service. The implementation of inmates identified as showing indications for dyslexia any resulting action plans will be monitored by local or reporting attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. commissioners. [HL2889] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Terrorism Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on 17 March (WA 34) regarding Hydebank Wood Question Young Offenders Centre, (a) how many inmates Asked by Baroness Warsi were screened for dyslexia in the last three years; (b) whether the subsequent engagement of these To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress inmates with the juvenile and criminal justice systems they have made in developing a communications has been monitored and, if so, whether there has toolkit for local delivery partners to build their been a difference between the re-offending rates of capacities to implement effective communications those identified as showing indications for dyslexia around the Prevent agenda. [HL3069] or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and of the others; and (c) whether they will maintain this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, comparison over a period of five years for statistical Department for Communities and Local Government purposes. [HL2890] (Baroness Andrews): In January 2009, the Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG) and To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the the Research, Information and Communications Unit Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on (RICU) commissioned a creative media agency, Bold 17 March (WA 34) regarding Hydebank Wood Creative, to develop a communications toolkit for YoungOffenders Centre, how many inmates screened local delivery partners. This built on work that had for dyslexia at the centre have self-reported learning been done by Bold Creative the previous year under difficulties other than dyslexia and what are those the auspices of the West London Alliance (led by the difficulties. [HL2891] London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham), which included a 12-month period of research and consultation with West London communities. The communications toolkit is intended as a practical The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall reference manual for local authorities and partner of Blaisdon): During the last three years at Hydebank agencies, including members of local strategic partnerships, Wood, 635 young offenders have been screened for to help them to implement effective communications indicators of dyslexia. Of these, 197 had one or more around the Prevent agenda. The toolkit provides step- indicators for dyslexia. by-step guidance on best practice in areas such as Screening is carried out by teaching staff as part of developing and implementing local Prevent a wider educational assessment and it is not therefore communications strategies, identifying target audiences possible separately to identify the costs. Staff at Hydebank and the most effective channels for reaching them, Wood use Quick Scan, a computerised screening tool planning effective campaigns and communications developed for students in further education. As well as activities, and reacting to media and wider community identifying indicators for dyslexia, it also provides an interest in Prevent-related issues. analysis of students’ strengths and weaknesses in a The first draft of the toolkit will be circulated range of educational disciplines. among key stakeholders for their comments in the Relevant information from the assessment is coming weeks, with a view to publishing the final passed to those teachers who will be working with the document by the end of May. individual, enabling them to make appropriate, reasonable WA 85 Written Answers[30 APRIL 2009] Written Answers WA 86 adjustments to their lessons. This information is also The Criminal Justice System does not monitor made available to agencies working within Hydebank separately reoffending rates for those showing indications Wood, via the prisoner’s individual resettlement plan. of dyslexia or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Individuals are not screened for indicators of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, but where a prisoner NIPS do not currently hold information on how self-reports, or where staff believe this may be beneficial, many prisoners screened for indicators of dyslexia they can be referred to specific programmes within the have self-reported learning difficulties other than dyslexia, prison facilitated by Northern Ireland Attention Deficit or what those difficulties are. However it is hoped to Disorder. These programmes are designed to help trial additional screening tools at Hydebank Wood in them manage their condition. Prisoners can also be the autumn, which will give better information on referred to a GP if healthcare staff and the prisoner prisoners displaying indicators of attention deficit believe that medication may be helpful. hyperactivity disorder.

Thursday 30 April 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Animal Procedures Committee: Appointments...... 27 Discretionary Social Fund...... 29

Auction of Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Land..... 27 Health: Lord Bradley’s Report ...... 30 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust...... 31 Consolidated Fund ...... 28 Primary Curriculum: Review ...... 33 Cyprus: Call Out Order ...... 28 Puma Review ...... 32 Defence Vetting Agency: Key Targets Financial Year 2009-2010 ...... 29 Regional Development Agencies: Board Appointments .... 32

Thursday 30 April 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 41 Legal Aid...... 67

Animal Health...... 41 Licensing Act...... 67

Banking ...... 41 Mental Health: Northern Ireland ...... 68

Banking: Iceland...... 42 Metal Detection...... 68

Biometric Data ...... 42 Muslims...... 69

Bottled Water ...... 43 NHS: Allergy Services ...... 69

Chaplains...... 43 NHS: Pharmaceutical Services ...... 70

Civil Service: Performance Pay ...... 44 Northern Ireland Office: Hire Cars...... 71

Communities: Preventing Extremism...... 44 Northern Ireland Office: Mobile Phones ...... 71

Counter-Terrorism Act ...... 53 Northern Ireland Office: Taxis...... 72

Crime: Northern Ireland...... 53 Northern Ireland: Weapons ...... 72

Department for International Development: DEL ...... 54 Population ...... 72

Department of Health: Arts/Health Group ...... 55 Presbyterian Mutual Society of Northern Ireland ...... 73

Disabled Children...... 57 Prisoners...... 73

Equality and Human Rights Commission ...... 57 Prisoners: Northern Ireland...... 73

Gypsies and Travellers ...... 57 Prisons: Northern Ireland...... 74

Health: Dementia ...... 58 Questions for Written Answer...... 74

Health: Former UK Residents...... 58 Questions for Written Answer: Northern Ireland Office .... 75

Houses of Parliament: Select Committees ...... 59 Railways: East Midland Trains ...... 75

Housing...... 60 Railways: Fares...... 76

Iraq: Foetal Abnormalities ...... 66 Roads: Traffic Officers ...... 77

Iraq: Gay People...... 67 Social Care: Adults...... 78 Col. No. Col. No. Social Care: Companies...... 79 Sudan: Asylum Seekers...... 81 Tennyson Obih ...... 82 Sport: Free Swimming ...... 80 Terrorism...... 83 St Helena: Airport ...... 80 Young Offenders: Dyslexia ...... 84 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL2229] ...... 54 [HL2933] ...... 71

[HL2310] ...... 54 [HL2944] ...... 80

[HL2598] ...... 72 [HL2948] ...... 60

[HL2668] ...... 42 [HL2949] ...... 61

[HL2743] ...... 53 [HL2954] ...... 70

[HL2787] ...... 55 [HL2955] ...... 70

[HL2788] ...... 55 [HL2956] ...... 43

[HL2789] ...... 55 [HL2966] ...... 73

[HL2790] ...... 55 [HL2969] ...... 58

[HL2792] ...... 72 [HL2972] ...... 67

[HL2852] ...... 44 [HL2973] ...... 73

[HL2856] ...... 57 [HL2985] ...... 59

[HL2859] ...... 41 [HL2994] ...... 78

[HL2862] ...... 82 [HL2995] ...... 78

[HL2863] ...... 83 [HL3004] ...... 43

[HL2865] ...... 42 [HL3009] ...... 43

[HL2869] ...... 68 [HL3017] ...... 66

[HL2879] ...... 69 [HL3020] ...... 67

[HL2880] ...... 69 [HL3024] ...... 79

[HL2881] ...... 69 [HL3029] ...... 41

[HL2882] ...... 69 [HL3036] ...... 68

[HL2883] ...... 57 [HL3045] ...... 72

[HL2884] ...... 58 [HL3049] ...... 81

[HL2888] ...... 84 [HL3050] ...... 81

[HL2889] ...... 84 [HL3051] ...... 82

[HL2890] ...... 84 [HL3052] ...... 82

[HL2891] ...... 84 [HL3063] ...... 77

[HL2918] ...... 68 [HL3064] ...... 77

[HL2919] ...... 74 [HL3065] ...... 78

[HL2925] ...... 60 [HL3066] ...... 57

[HL2931] ...... 71 [HL3068] ...... 44

[HL2932] ...... 75 [HL3069] ...... 83 Col. No. Col. No. [HL3081] ...... 73 [HL3096] ...... 76

[HL3088] ...... 53 [HL3097] ...... 80 [HL3100] ...... 81 [HL3091] ...... 75 [HL3121] ...... 69 [HL3092] ...... 75 [HL3146] ...... 75 [HL3093] ...... 76 [HL3166] ...... 66 [HL3094] ...... 75 [HL3227] ...... 76 Volume 710 Thursday No. 68 30 April 2009

CONTENTS

Thursday 30 April 2009 Black Rod Retirement of Sir Michael Willcocks and introduction of Sir Freddie Viggers ...... 319 Questions NATO: France...... 323 Questions for Written Answer: Late Answers ...... 325 EU: External Action Service...... 326 Gurkhas...... 329 Manchester City Council Bill [HL] ...... 332 Bournemouth Borough Council Bill [HL] Carryover Motion ...... 332 Canterbury City Council Bill ...... 333 Leeds City Council Bill...... 333 Nottingham City Council Bill ...... 333 Reading Borough Council Bill Motion of Commons Message ...... 333 Four Statutory Instruments Referred to Grand Committee...... 333 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 333 Armed Forces Debate ...... 334 Sri Lanka Statement...... 380 Health Debate ...... 390 Cohabitation Bill [HL] Committee (1st Day) ...... 410 Grand Committee Political Parties and Elections Bill Committee (2nd Day) ...... GC 105 Written Statements...... WS 27 Written Answers...... WA 4 1