Vol. 789 Tuesday No. 96 20 February 2018

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

List of Government and Principal Officers of the House ...... 1 Retirement of Lieutenant General David Leakey and introduction of ...... 1 Questions Charities, Social Enterprises and Voluntary Organisations...... 7 Commonwealth Summit ...... 9 Disabled People: Social Care...... 12 Apprenticeships ...... 14 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Second Reading...... 17 Update Statement...... 40 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Second Reading (Continued) ...... 52 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2018 Motion to Approve ...... 69 Review of Post-18 Education and Funding Statement...... 75 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector Statement...... 84 Nuclear Weapons Question for Short Debate...... 95 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2018-02-20

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2018, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT

PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE

THE CABINET PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE—The Rt. Hon. David Lidington, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Amber Rudd, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. Boris Johnson, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EXITING THE —The Rt. Hon. David Davis, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt. Hon. Gavin Williamson, MP LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt. Hon. David Gauke, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY—The Rt. Hon. Greg Clark, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOUSING,COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Liam Fox, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt. Hon. Damian Hinds, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt. Hon. Esther McVey, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—Baroness Evans of Bowes Park SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. David Mundell, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt. Hon. Alun Cairns, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt. Hon. Karen Bradley, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt. Hon. Penny Mordaunt, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DIGITAL,CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt. Hon. Matt Hancock, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt. Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP

ALSO ATTENDS CABINET CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt. Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Andrea Leadsom, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Wright, QC, MP MINISTER FOR ENERGY AND CLEAN GROWTH—The Rt. Hon. Claire Perry, MP MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION—The Rt. Hon. Caroline Nokes, MP

DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Greg Clark, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Claire Perry, MP (Minister for Energy and Clean Growth) Sam Gyimah, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Andrew Griffiths, MP (Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Corporate Responsibility) Richard Harrington, MP (Minister for Business and Industry) The Rt. Hon. Lord Henley Cabinet Office— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt. Hon. David Lidington, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt. Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Oliver Dowden, MP (Minister for Implementation) Chloe Smith, MP (Minister for the Constitution) CABINET OFFICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Young of Cookham, CH § Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Gavin Williamson, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Earl Howe § The Rt. Hon. Mark Lancaster, TD, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Tobias Ellwood, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) Guto Bebb, MP (Minister for Defence Procurement) ii

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Matt Hancock, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Margot James, MP (Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Tracey Crouch, MP (Minister for Sport and Civil Society) Lord Ashton of Hyde Michael Ellis, MP (Minister for the Arts, Heritage and Tourism) Education— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Damian Hinds, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Nick Gibb, MP (Minister for School Standards) The Rt. Hon. Anne Milton, MP (Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills) Sam Gyimah, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Agnew of Oulton, DL (Minister for the School System) Nadhim Zahawi, MP (Minister for Children and Families) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP MINISTER OF STATE—George Eustice, MP (Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP (Minister for the Environment) Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Minister for Rural Affairs and Biosecurity) Exiting the European Union— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Davis, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Lord Callanan PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Robin Walker, MP Steve Baker, MP Suella Fernandes, MP Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Boris Johnson, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Sir Alan Duncan, KCMG, MP (Minister for Europe and the Americas) The Rt. Hon. Alistair Burt, MP (Minister for the Middle East) § Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for the Commonwealth and the UN) The Rt. Hon. Mark Field, MP (Minister for Asia and the Pacific) Harriett Baldwin, MP (Minister for Africa) § Health and Social Care— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP MINISTER MINISTER OF STATE— Stephen Barclay, MP (Minister for Health) Caroline Dinenage, MP (Minister for Care) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jackie Doyle-Price, MP (Minister for Mental Health and Inequalities) Steve Brine, MP (Minister for Public Health and Primary Care) Lord O’Shaughnessy Home Office— SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Amber Rudd, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Caroline Nokes, MP (Minister for Immigration) The Rt. Hon. Ben Wallace, MP (Minister for Security and Economic Crime) The Rt. Hon. Nick Hurd, MP (Minister for Policing and the Fire Service) Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Countering Extremism; Minister for Equalities) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Victoria Atkins, MP (Minister for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability; Minister for Women) Housing, Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Dominic Raab, MP (Minister for Housing) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) Heather Wheeler, MP (Minister for Housing and Homelessness) Rishi Sunak, MP (Minister for Local Government) Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Minister for Faith) § iii

International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Penny Mordaunt, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Alistair Burt, MP § Harriett Baldwin, MP § The Rt. Hon. Lord Bates International Trade— SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Liam Fox, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Greg Hands, MP (Minister for Trade Policy) Baroness Fairhead, CBE (Minister for Trade and Export Promotion) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Graham Stuart, MP Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Gauke, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Rory Stewart, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Dr Phillip Lee, MP (Minister for Youth Justice, Victims, Female Offenders and Offender Health) Lucy Frazer, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND AND MINISTRY OF JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC

Law Officers— ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Wright, QC, MP SOLICITOR GENERAL—Robert Buckland, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC (Ministry of Justice Spokesperson for the Lords)

Leader of the House of Commons— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Andrea Leadsom, MP

Leader of the House of Lords— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—Baroness Evans of Bowes Park DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Earl Howe §

Northern Ireland— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Karen Bradley, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Shailesh Vara, MP Lord Duncan of Springbank §

Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Mundell, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Lord Duncan of Springbank § Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Joseph Johnson, MP (Minister for London) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jesse Norman, MP Baroness Sugg, CBE Nusrat Ghani, MP § Treasury— CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt. Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY AND PAYMASTER GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Mel Stride, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Robert Jenrick, MP ECONOMIC SECRETARY—John Glen, MP LORDS COMMISSIONERS— Andrew Stephenson, MP Paul Maynard, MP Craig Whittaker, MP Rebecca Harris, MP David Rutley, MP Nigel Adams, MP iv

ASSISTANT WHIPS— Nusrat Ghani, MP § Mike Freer, MP Jo Churchill, MP Amanda Milling, MP Stuart Andrew, MP § Kelly Tolhurst, MP Wendy Morton, MP Mims Davies, MP

Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Alun Cairns, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth § Stuart Andrew, MP §

Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Esther McVey, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Alok Sharma, MP (Minister for Employment) Sarah Newton, MP (Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Guy Opperman, MP (Minister for Pensions and Financial Inclusion) Baroness Buscombe Kit Malthouse, MP (Minister for Family Support, Housing and Child Maintenance)

Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt. Hon. Earl Peel, GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord Vestey, KCVO PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP TREASURER AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—Christopher Pincher, MP COMPTROLLER—Chris Heaton-Harris, MP VICE CHAMBERLAIN—Mark Spencer, MP

Government Whips, House of Lords— CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Lord Taylor of Holbeach, CBE CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—The Earl of Courtown BARONESSES IN WAITING— Baroness Vere of Norbiton Baroness Goldie, DL Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen Baroness Stedman-Scott, OBE, DL LORDS IN WAITING— Viscount Younger of Leckie The Rt. Hon. Lord Young of Cookham, CH § § Members of the Government listed under more than one department HOUSE OF LORDS

PRINCIPAL OFFICE HOLDERS AND SENIOR STAFF

LORD SPEAKER—The Rt. Hon. Lord Fowler SENIOR DEPUTY SPEAKER—The Rt. Hon. Lord McFall of Alcluith PRINCIPAL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—Lord Boswell of Aynho CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS—E.C. Ollard CLERK ASSISTANT—S.P. Burton READING CLERK AND CLERK OF THE OVERSEAS OFFICE—J. Vaughan LADY USHER OF THE BLACK ROD AND SERJEANT-AT-ARMS—S. Clarke COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Lucy Scott-Moncrieff, CBE COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—J. Cooper CLERK OF COMMITTEES—Dr F. P. Tudor LEGAL ADVISER TO THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMITTEE—A. Horne, T. Mitchell LEGAL ADVISER TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE—To be appointed DIRECTOR OF FACILITIES—C. V. Woodall FINANCE DIRECTOR—M. Ahmed DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY DIGITAL SERVICE—T. Jessup DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RESOURCES—N. Sully CLERK OF LEGISLATION—A. Makower PRINCIPAL CLERK OF SELECT COMMITTEES—DR C.S. Johnson REGISTRAR OF LORDS’INTERESTS—T.W.G. Wilson

20 February 2018

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT OF THE OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND COMMENCING ON THE THIRTEENTH DAY OF JUNE IN THE SIXTY-SIXTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

FIFTH SERIES VOLUME DCCLXXXIX

SEVENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2017-19

the sadly curtailed tenure of Sir , after House of Lords a distinguished career in the Army spanning four decades. He commanded forces and operations in a Tuesday 20 February 2018 number of areas, including West , Northern 2.30 pm Ireland and Bosnia. He used his service experience in the latter country to play a critical role as the UK’s Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Winchester. military representative during the talks which led to the in 1995, ending three and a half years of devastating conflict. David also held other Black Rod senior defence, security and international appointments Retirement of Lieutenant General David Leakey in the Ministry of Defence and in , most and introduction of Sarah Clarke recently as the director-general of the EU military staff from 2007 to 2010. 2.36 pm As noble Lords know, behind the scenes during his The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes time as Black Rod, David was responsible for arranging Park) (Con): My Lords, I have to inform the House six State Openings—a huge operation, which he and that Her Majesty has appointed Sarah Clarke to be his team, including the doorkeepers, always managed Lady Usher of the Black Rod, in succession to Lieutenant with skill and sensitivity. David supervised nine state General David Leakey, CMG, CVO, CBE, and that visits and six addresses by a number of notable Heads she is at the Door, ready to receive your Lordships’ of Government and States. As I am sure your Lordships commands. well remember, the successful visits of President Obama and the King and Queen of Spain, as well as the Noble Lords: Hear, hear. celebrations to mark Her Majesty the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee, were all significant operations, conducted with Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: My Lords, it is the enormous care. The novel arrangements in the Chapel custom of the House to pay tribute to the outgoing of St Mary Undercroft, which allowed parliamentarians Black Rod on the day that their successor assumes the and the public to pay their respects to Lady Thatcher, office. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Tony Benn and last year to PC Palmer in advance of David for his tireless service to the House during the their funerals, were also conducted with his characteristic seven years that he served as Gentleman Usher of the thoughtfulness. Black Rod. Throughout his time as Black Rod, David enjoyed Noble Lords will be aware that, since David’sretirement close working relationships with three Serjeants at Arms in December, the Yeoman Usher, Brigadier Neil in the Commons, and oversaw a good deal of change. Baverstock, has stepped in to serve as acting Black His open-minded approach to changes in security Rod. I am sure I speak for us all when I say that we governance, in particular, was essential in ensuring are extremely grateful to Neil for taking on these that the new arrangements under the parliamentary essential duties with his typical calmness, good humour security director have worked well. The fact that those and effectiveness, and preparing a smooth handover arrangements are now taken for granted by his successor to Sarah. will be one of David’s lasting legacies to this House. With the leave of the House, I would like to pay During his tenure David also played a significant tribute to David’s distinguished career. He assumed role in improving Parliament’s relocation contingency the office of Black Rod in February 2011, following arrangements, overseeing, as one of his final acts as 3 Black Rod [LORDS] Black Rod 4

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] From men in tiaras to men in tights: the Leader Black Rod, a successful relocation exercise which helped mentioned that the collective memory of your to provide reassurance about the robustness of these Lordships’ House has been deeply affected by the arrangements. He leaves Parliament as a whole better sight of David on national television in just his long equipped to handle the considerable challenges to be white shirt, quickly and I have to say rather expertly faced in the coming years, for which we are grateful. managing to pull on his ceremonial black tights. One It would also be remiss of me not to acknowledge day, feeling quite courageous, I summoned up the the degree of fame that David achieved last year, or nerve to ask him why. How did the crew manage to get rather his legs as adorned by Ede & Ravenscroft’s him to dress in front of the camera? Somewhat finest 60 denier tights, when they appeared in the embarrassed, he replied that he had got so used to BBC’s “Meet the Lords” documentary. them following him around that, “I just forgot they Beyond David’s professional achievements, many were there”. noble Lords will also be aware of his extracurricular One of the highlights of the parliamentary calendar musical activities and achievements. He was an active has to be the State Opening of Parliament, when TVs supporter of the National Children’s Orchestra, serving around the world show that slow parade from your as the chairman until 2014, and within Parliament was Lordships’ House to the other end of the building, so a stalwart of the Parliament Choir,overseeing a successful that Black Rod can summon Members of the elected joint concert with the Bundestag choir in Westminster House to hear the Queen’s Speech. As 2017 brought Hall in July 2014. I trust that his retirement will an unexpected election, the Queen’sSpeech unfortunately provide ample time for the continued pursuit of these clashed with a previous commitment in the royal interests. calendar—Ascot. In a full House of Commons, It simply remains for me to warmly welcome Sarah with such formal ceremony, it was a delight to watch Clarke to the House. I look forward to working with David struggle to keep a straight face as Dennis her. I end by reiterating our thanks to David Leakey Skinner quipped, “Get your skates on. First race is for the service he has given to this House, its Members half past two”. and Parliament as a whole. I wish him, and his wife The Leader paid tribute to and thanked the Yeoman Shelagh, many happy years of retirement. Usher, Brigadier Neil Baverstock, for stepping up as the acting Black Rod following David’s departure. On Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, the behalf of these Benches, I add our appreciation and noble Baroness has provided a very rounded picture of thanks. Neil has served as Yeoman Usher in good and our outgoing Black Rod, Lieutenant General David in difficult times, and his calmness under pressure Leakey.Like his predecessors, he brought his considerable alongside an easy, yet highly efficient manner has been military experience to Parliament and, as we have greatly and warmly appreciated. heard, he has used his logistical, management and And now we move into a new era with our new diplomatic experience and skills to great effect, both in Lady Usher of the Black Rod, Sarah Clarke. When good times, for national celebratory events, and in Sarah first saw the newspaper advert, she knew that very difficult times, when his diligent and considerate that she would have to demonstrate that her experience nature was greatly appreciated. would enable her to fulfil the responsibilities of this The role of Black Rod has changed over the years, position. Following her interviews, we were absolutely and David’s time in office was one of significant confident that she has the skills, the understanding change, particularly in relation to how Parliament and the personality to take on this role. Who knows, manages the security of the estate and of those who her Wimbledon experience could be very useful during work here. The noble Baroness the Leader was right to any parliamentary ping-pong—although some things highlight his flexibility and professionalism in managing take more time. We warmly welcome her and look such change. forward to working with her, although she may not On a personal note, I was very grateful when David appreciate the ping-pong joke. supported my campaign for a commemorative brass The last word has to be for David Leakey. We wish plaque to recognise the Westminster Hall lying-in-state him and Shelagh a long and enjoyable retirement. of those killed in the R101 airship disaster of 1930. After two years’ of Questions and lobbying, finally, with David’s strong support, we were able to welcome Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, on behalf of these the descendants of those who had died and lain in Benches I too welcome Sarah Clarke very warmly to state to an unveiling service in Westminster Hall, the House. I and my colleagues look forward very where the new plaque is proudly on display—a missing much to working with her. I also express our thanks to piece of parliamentary history now recognised. Thank Neil Baverstock for serving as acting Black Rod in the you, David. intervening weeks since David Leakey’s retirement. One of my favourite stories about David was told We are extremely grateful to him for filling this role to me by my noble friend Lord Collins. When he asked with his customary professionalism. Black Rod whether it was compulsory for Peers’ spouses David Leakey had an extremely distinguished career to wear tiaras at State Openings, he was told very in the Army before he became Black Rod. One of his firmly and succinctly, “Yes, of course”. “That’s good”, military roles was particularly useful preparation: from replied my noble friend Lord Collins, “my husband 2004 to 2007 he was commander of the European has just bought one”. David’sresponse is not recorded—it Union’s peacekeeping force in . may have been a rare speechless moment—but no His civilian opposite number was my colleague and tiara was worn. noble friend Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, 5 Black Rod [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Black Rod 6 then the EU’s high representative. I doubt whether For most of us, much of what David did was they saw their regular dealings in Bosnia as training unseen. There were the grand occasions that had to for their eventual roles here, but in any event it clearly be planned for, of course. No state visit is complete stood Black Rod, at least, in good stead. Being a without our welcoming the visitor to Parliament. But professional peacekeeper would, I am sure, have proved these things do not just happen. Like all the other extremely useful training because, in addition to the ceremonial occasions in which he was involved, they ceremonial roles played by Black Rod, sorting out have to be planned for. Nothing must be allowed to disputes between Members of your Lordships’ House go wrong. If anything did go wrong during his time, has traditionally been an important element in his the mishaps were so small that no one ever noticed. work. I know from my own period as Chief Whip on Security issues occupied his time, too. They, too, had these Benches that there were times when Black Rod to be planned for, and one of his legacies is the had to deal with disputes between Peers, sometimes of improvement of the oversight of the parking of cars an essentially trivial nature but of great importance to in Black Rod’s Garden. But there were occasions the Peers concerned. He did it with calm authority and when he had to cope with the unexpected, as happened due seriousness. during that dreadful terrorist incident last March, and It takes much meticulous planning to ensure that others when a swift and sympathetic response was the great ceremonial and state occasions referred to by called for to attend to the needs of someone who had the Leader of the House run smoothly and without a fallen ill. Unseen to most of us this part of his duties hitch. David approached all of these with great skill may have been, but the fact that he was here to be and care and ensured that they were all flawlessly called upon as needed and to respond so quickly was a executed time after time. We are all deeply grateful to reassurance in itself. For that, as much as for as his David for his dedication to public service and this ceremonial duties, we are most grateful. House. We on these Benches wish him and his wife David is not one who is likely to be short of things extremely well in his retirement. to do during his retirement. On behalf of these Benches, I join all the others who have spoken in wishing him and his wife well in whatever he may wish to do to Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, on behalf occupy his time in the future. of these Benches, I join the Leader of the House in welcoming Sarah Clarke most warmly to the House and in expressing our thanks to Neil Baverstock for The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, from the exemplary way in which he has served as acting these Benches I emphasise our gratitude to Sir David, Black Rod since David Leakey’s retirement. We are particularly for the steadfast and dependable way he very fortunate indeed in our Yeoman Usher—and to supported this House during quite a challenging term have such a worthy successor to fill the place that of office, with threats to the building from without David left behind him. and within. He will be remembered by the Lords I am sure I am not alone in being glad that David spiritual especially for the time he took to welcome Leakey was in his usual place in the Chamber on each one of us when we first arrived, and of course for 21 December last year to hear the loud chorus of his self-deprecating sense of humour. “Hear, hear” when the Lord Speaker told us that he On a personal note, there has been a long connection wished to place on record his thanks and the thanks of between my diocese and holders of the office of Black the whole House, and to wish him well for the future. Rod, and we both serve as officers of the Most Noble The warmth of that response was as good a tribute as Order of the Garter. I am personally grateful to him one could have wished for, to show the affection in for the support he gave me when I took up my role as which he was held on all sides in this Chamber. Prelate to the Order. I shall miss our conversations I think our best memory of him will be of a slim, about Kenya, and I hope his retirement from this dapper figure in his Black Rod’s uniform. As we have House will afford him more time to spend on his heard, he made no secret of the fact that he liked smallholding. We wish Sarah all the very best in her dressing up. Perhaps this was because of the bulky new role as Black Rod. clothes, designed for outside duties in a cold climate, which a photograph on a website shows him wearing The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): My Lords, lastly when, as a brigadier, he was in command of operations and briefly, I once again pay my own tribute to in Kosovo. He certainly was not slim and dapper David Leakey for his dedicated service to this House then. He put all of that behind him when he came and I wish him a long and well-earned retirement. I here. As for the disciplines which guided him during also thank very sincerely the Yeoman Usher, Neil his long and distinguished career in the Army, Baverstock, and his team for stepping into the role happily they were not so easily discarded. I recall his for the past two months so very ably. I, too, extend attempts to instil some sort of discipline into the a warm welcome to the new Black Rod, Sarah very unmilitary combination of the Lord Speaker, Clarke, and on behalf of the House I wish her all the three party leaders and myself as Convenor—I the best in her new post. In this centenary year of hope my colleagues will forgive me—as we rehearsed the first enfranchisement of women, I am so pleased for our appearance as commissioners in the that this most historic of roles has finally been taken Prorogation ceremony at the end of the previous up by a woman. I hope that her appointment will Parliament. We did our best, several times, but I am demonstrate to women everywhere that no job or sure our drill was not really up to his high standards. position is beyond their reach. I very much look But if he was disappointed, he was far too polite to forward to working with Black Rod in the years show it. ahead. 7 Charities and Social Enterprises[LORDS] Charities and Social Enterprises 8

Charities, Social Enterprises and my noble friend is right that some of these very large Voluntary Organisations charities have considerable means. The suggestion on which the Charity Commission will consult is that Question only those charities with incomes of over £5 million will be involved. I think that would be about 2,000 charities 2.55 pm out of about 168,000 registered charities. Asked by Baroness Barker Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, we all know that To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they charities have to be regulated in accordance with have plans to improve the regulation of charities, charity law, but will the Government resist proposals social enterprises, and voluntary organisations. for including social enterprises and voluntary organisations in any enhanced regulation? Surely the variety within TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department civil society, and its constantly branching out into new for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of and creative directions, is a national asset and should Hyde) (Con): My Lords, the Charity Commission was be left alone. recognised by the National Audit Office in November last year for making significant progress in improving Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, I agree with the itsregulatoryeffectiveness.Additionalfundingof £5million noble Lord. I do not think there is any suggestion of per year for the Charity Commission was announced further regulation of civil society, as such, but we in January, as was the preferred candidate for its chair, expect all organisations which deal with the public to my noble friend Lady Stowell. The Charity Commission obey the law. That includes charities but also all civil has been clear that safeguarding is a key governance society. It is one thing that can be considered in the priority.In response to recent safeguarding revelations, new consultation on the civil society strategy that we the commission has announced a number of measures are going to launch soon. to ensure that charities learn the wider lessons and that trustees strengthen their own safeguarding arrangements. Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing to our attention Baroness Barker (LD): I thank the Minister for that the connection between the activities of the Charity Answer. Perhaps more than ever, we need a Charity Commission and bodies like it and recent incidents of Commission that is strong, effective and respected by which we are all too well aware. I have long and all charities, big and small. Yet for the second time, the profound experience of Haiti and could make my Government have nominated as its chair someone question centre on that, but that is not where the who has no noted experience of charities and no noted Question laid before us is.Granted, in times of heightened experience of regulation. Does the Minister agree that anxiety, such as this, we are all tempted to put regulatory to safeguard the independence and authority of the strangleholds on those at the top, whether an NGO, commission, there now needs to be a depoliticisation the Charity Commission or even the Government. of the appointment process? However,is not the best wayof ensuring improvement—so that these things do not happen again—to have adequate Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, the appointment procedures as near to the place where these incidents process is a fair and open recruitment process, in line happen as possible, and proper ways of monitoring with the Government’s code for public appointments those activities? Is that not better than finding other andregulatedbytheCommissionerforPublicAppointments, rules and regulations simply at the top? so there are no plans to change the process. My noble Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, there is lot of friend Lady Stowell has already said that if she is sense in what the noble Lord said. One of the things appointed as the chair, she will renounce her party we want to do is to strike a balance. We should membership and move to the Cross Benches. She is remember that all these organisations do good work; well aware of what it takes to be impartial and I am that is what they are in business for. We have to be sure she will do a good job, as has been said by many careful about things such as safeguarding. I take the people in the charity sector. noble Lord’s point about making it near the action, as it were. One thing we are doing is convening two Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con): My Lords, summits, one to focus on international aid charities, while I am sure the Minister will wish to pay tribute to which will be jointly chaired by the Secretary of State the retiring head of the Charity Commission, William for International Development, and another, chaired Shawcross, he might be minded to take note of his by the Minister for Sport and Civil Society,to concentrate final comment that some of the huge NGOs now hire on domestic charities, to look at what we can do to extremely expensive lawyers to combat the good advice strengthen the safeguarding capability and capacity of that they receive from the Charity Commission. Perhaps charities working across that area. The fact remains he might consider fining or getting some reimbursement that charities and organisations like them do good from those enormous NGOs to heighten the Charity work on the ground. Commissioners’ rather slender budget, as William Shawcross recommended. Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, charities are affected not just by regulation but by policy developments. Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, the subject of Will the Minister say whether there is a protocol charging for the Charity Commission to enable it to be across government to investigate how new policy sustainable is an open question and it will consult on developments impact on charities and their ability to that. I realise that there is an issue of principle here but do their work? 9 Charities and Social Enterprises[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Commonwealth Summit 10

Lord Ashton of Hyde: I do not know whether there the Commonwealth family.On my noble friend’s specific is a protocol but the Minister for Sport and Civil questions, the priorities of the Government will reflect Society is the focus for work in policy areas that go what will be decided during the course of the Heads of across government. We are currently working closely Government meeting itself, but already we are seeing with, for example, the Department for Education and some real focus on the important areas of empowerment, the Department for International Development to girls’ education and 12 years of quality education; on make sure that policy development is joined up. The areas of cybersecurity; on trade; on tackling issues Office for Civil Society, which is based at DCMS, is around climate change; and on the broader agenda of the focus for that. human rights. All these will be reflected during the two years of the UK’s chairing during this period in Lord Laming (CB): My Lords, does the Minister office. agree that the Charity Commission should have powers to require charities to have clear lines of accountability Lord Morgan (Lab): My Lords, is not one of the and to be transparent, not only in how they spend important aspects of the Commonwealth relationship their money but in how they handle their staffing that of higher education? I have taken part in two issues? conferences on that in two citadels of learning, New Lord Ashton of Hyde: Yes, one of the issues is the Delhi and Aberystwyth, both of which are very successful. Charity Commission having sufficient resources, not Can the Minister tell us anything about the degree of only for regulatory functions but for advice functions. prominence that this might have at the Commonwealth Increasingly, the charitable sector is asking for advice summit? from the Charity Commission and we have to find a sustainable way for it to do that. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Lord is correct in his statement that the university sector is an important part of the Commonwealth. In this regard, Commonwealth Summit the Commonwealth summit unit within the Cabinet Question Office is working very closely with the Association of 3.04 pm CommonwealthUniversities,whichhasover500members, and the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission, which Asked by Baroness Berridge has 900 scholars and thousands of alumni. As for our Toask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they own commitment, we are giving over £25 million in havetakentopromotetheforthcomingCommonwealth the current year on the issue of Commonwealth Summit with schools, universities, non-governmental scholarships. These are all part and parcel of the organisations, and businesses. engagement. I am sure all noble Lords will be pleased to know that there is a specific youth forum during The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the Commonwealth summit week, which is being Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, organised by those 60% of people under 30 across the we have undertaken an extensive public engagement Commonwealth family. programme across the United Kingdom and the wider Commonwealth to complement and promote the formal Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, one of summit programme. The Department for Education the aspects of the CHOGM event is that it is an recently launched a Commonwealth schools pack, which opportunity for Heads of Government to meet civil is available to all schools in the UK, to further pupils’ society.The Minister has mentioned the several different understanding of the Commonwealth and its values. forums that will be taking place. It is also an opportunity Weare engaging schools, universities, non-governmental to welcome the new South African President to this organisations and businesses and encouraging them to country. As chair of the constitution committee, he celebrate the Commonwealth and raise the summit created a first with the constitutional protections for profile. gay rights in the constitution. Will the Minister take Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I thank my the opportunity to ensure that Cyril Ramaphosa is noble friend for his Answer. It is often stated in this able to meet civil society and the Commonwealth Chamber that the Commonwealth is an underutilised Equality Network so that we can have a voice from intergovernmental network and has little profile among Africa standing up for LGBT rights? these institutions and the general public. After the Heads of Government meeting, the UK will be the chair Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, the noble of the Commonwealth for two years until the next Lord has put forward a very practical and helpful Heads of Government meeting. So what plans do Her suggestion and I will follow it up with the Commonwealth Majesty’s Government have to promote this with those unit and the South African high commission. On the institutions? Could my noble friend outline the broader point about LGBT rights, which I have talked Government’s priorities for this period in office? about previously in this Chamber, I have just returned from the Gambia. I assure all noble Lords that during Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I agree with the various meetings that I had with senior members my noble friend. The Commonwealth is desperately of its Government the issue of LGBT rights, among underleveraged in terms of what it brings together in other human rights, was raised directly. common languages, common history, common cultures and common opportunities for the future. I am delighted, Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, the UK will as all noble Lords will be, that we now have an indeed chair the Commonwealth for the next two additional Commonwealth state; the Gambia has joined years. Will the Cabinet Office unit that is currently 11 Commonwealth Summit [LORDS] Disabled People: Social Care 12

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] Disabled People: Social Care planning for CHOGM stay in place for those two Question years? Will there be a focus on increasing trade with the Commonwealth, given that at the moment only 3.12 pm 9% of UK trade goes to the Commonwealth even Asked by Baroness Campbell of Surbiton though it has one-third of the world’s population? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: To begin with the final have plans to improve social care for disabled people point that the noble Baroness raised—the important below retirement age in the light of the change in element of opportunity within the Commonwealth—she title of the Department of Health. is quite right. I myself mentioned from the Dispatch Box a few moments ago the underleverage and the TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department opportunities of the Commonwealth. Trade will be of Health and Social Care (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con): mentioned specifically in the communiqué, and we My Lords, the Government are committed to making are hoping for agreements across the piece on that sure that everyone who is assessed as having a care issue. On the specific issue about the organisation, need can access high-quality support to maintain their she is quite right: the current unit sits within the independence. While the social care Green Paper will Cabinet Office. It is the intention during our period in focus primarily on care for older people, it will also office to move the running back to the Foreign and address questions relevant to adults of all ages with Commonwealth Office, but all parts of government care needs. In addition, the Government are taking will be represented within that team. forward a parallel programme of work so that issues specific to working-age adults are considered in their Baroness Hayman (CB): My Lords, does the Minister own right. agree that the global malaria summit, which will be held during the week of CHOGM, gives a great Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB): I thank the opportunity for all the groups mentioned by the Minister for his reply—but, as he will know, the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, to give their common Government have transferred responsibility for the social commitment to a programme to reduce the death toll care Green Paper for older people from the Cabinet of malaria in the Commonwealth and beyond? Office to the Department of Health. Will he confirm that the Government will use this opportunity to review the scope of the Green Paper to include younger Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I totally agree with the disabled people, because the proposed parallel process, noble Baroness and pay tribute to her work on the which is not a Green Paper, is simply not acceptable important issue of fighting and eradicating malaria—we when half of social care spending now goes on working- had a very constructive and helpful meeting in that age disabled people? Please will the Minister confirm respect. Yes, we are working closely with the organisations that both older and younger disabled people will receive Malaria No More and Global Citizen to ensure that parity of status and attention from the Government? eradicating malaria across the Commonwealth 53 and beyond is prioritised. There are 85 NGOs accredited Lord O’Shaughnessy: I thank the noble Baroness by the Commonwealth, and we are working closely for her question. She is quite right to highlight the with them as well. importance of reform for this group of people. We are talking about 250,000 people now, but that is projected Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): I am sure my noble to rise to 400,000 working-age adults in the next friend agrees that this will be a summit with a difference 15 years. I want to reassure her that, while the Green in that it will involve to an unprecedented degree Paper itself is focused on care reform for older people, not only businesses and universities but schools, a parallel programme of work is going on. There is an cities and regions right across the United Kingdom. important round table coming up which is being chaired That is very welcome and the preparation has been by both the new Minister of State for Care, Caroline very thorough and encouraging. Does he agree that Dinenage, and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for the task now is to ensure strong outcomes and results, Communities and Local Government, with Mencap, so that the benefits and opportunities of the modern Scope and others.Weare giving the issue equal seriousness, Commonwealth network, which is quite different to as it deserves. anything in the past, can be spread to business and to the nation as a whole, and so that we support the Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, the charity Together Commonwealth more strongly than we may have in for Short Lives last year put in a Freedom of Information the recent past? Act request and found that one in five local authorities and one in six CCGs have absolutely no provision for Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I totally agree with my respite care short breaks for the most seriously ill and noble friend. Of course we will ensure that all the disabled children. Since then we have received reports opportunities are appropriately leveraged. He makes from across the country of more and more centres an important point on education. I was delighted to be under threat or actually closing, such as Nascot Lawn, with him only this weekend to celebrate the contribution which I have raised in your Lordships’ House before, of British Bangladeshi youth, among the other diasporas, which is in court again tomorrow to try to save it. to making our country what it is, also demonstrating What is happening about this social care and nursing the strength and benefits of the Commonwealth not care provision for children? Normally, for adults, there just to the United Kingdom but across the world. is a negotiation between the NHS and the local authority 13 Disabled People: Social Care [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Apprenticeships 14 about what is nursing and what is social care. But for that was the recommendation that the budgets should these children there seems to be no such relationship; be amalgamated so that we can provide social care to both local authorities and the NHS just point fingers all those who need it—both care for the disabled and at each other, and the result is children and their adult social care. Would he like to comment on that? families not getting breaks. Lord O’Shaughnessy: I am glad to be able to publish Lord O’Shaughnessy: I am very aware of this issue. the response at last, and apologise again for how long Indeed, we have had the opportunity to speak about it it has taken. I am pleased to report that we have not in specific cases. Local authorities of course are obliged just changed the name of the department but given the to provide respite care. The noble Baroness highlights strategic direction for social care policy back to it. an important point about care, which seems in a way That also includes strategic direction of funding—but to slip between the boundaries of the two. I shall write the actual funding settlement happens through the to her about the general policy work that is going on, local government funding settlement. I have to disappoint but I know that we need to solve this because we have the noble Lord on that because there are no current children who are now living longer who before might plans to change it. not have lived so long and who require care, as do their families. It is essential that they get the care that they Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, in his Answer to deserve. the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, my noble friend referred to a forthcoming round table Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, I know that that will address some of the issues that provoked the the Minister will tell me and the House again about Question. Can my noble friend assure me that the the extra billions that the Government are putting into noble Baroness will be invited to participate in that social care. However, when everyone else says that round table? there is clearly a social care crisis, we have some dissonance here. The evidence of this crisis is the Lord O’Shaughnessy: My noble friend makes an regression of opportunity and care for young disabled excellent suggestion. It is not my round table, so the people, which is there to see in personal cases where invitation is not mine to extend, but I shall certainly be people are not receiving the sort of support that they seeing my colleague the Minister of State this evening need. I am not convinced about the Green Paper and shall do everything that I can to encourage that looking at social care for older people. The noble invitation to come. Baroness, Lady Campbell, is right—that makes me more concerned, and I join her in that concern. Will Apprenticeships the Minister explain how the Government will achieve Question their target of 1 million more disabled people being in work by 2027 if they cannot get out of bed and travel 3.19 pm to work without help because of this combination of Asked by The Lord Bishop of Winchester cuts and the stalling of a coherent support policy to make that possible? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that young people from Lord O’Shaughnessy: I do not want to disappoint disadvantaged backgrounds are not put off taking the noble Baroness, but she is aware that more money up apprenticeship scheme places. is going in. To address the specific issue that she talks about—and I obviously can talk about it only from The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, I beg the point of view of the Department of Health—we leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the want and are seeing more disabled people going into Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as work. I would point to one big investment that the patron of YMCA Fairthorne, Hampshire. Department of Health is making, which is the disabled facilities grant. That is about making sure that disabled Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, ensuring people can live at home and have their independence, that apprenticeships are accessible to people from all which of course is critical to maintaining their physical backgrounds is a priority for this Government. Our health and confidence to make them, in a way, ready funding policy recognises where additional support is to go into work. I know that there are other programmes necessary through extra funding. We have launched a being put through job centres and the Department for new partnership with five cities in England to Work and Pensions to make sure that they are supported, drive up apprenticeships among under-represented groups. too. In addition, our careers strategy will mean that young people will have a better understanding of the world Lord Patel (CB): My Lords, I take this opportunity of work, including apprenticeships, to help to decide to thank the Minister for laying before Parliament their future careers. today the government response, 11 months after the report was produced, to the House of Lords Select The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I thank the Minister Committee report on the long-term sustainability of for his Answer. However, a major concern is that the NHS. We will now get an opportunity to debate disadvantaged students who rely on benefits lose that the report and the Government’s response in due entitlement when they take up apprenticeships. My course. One recommendation that was accepted was colleagues at the national YMCA tell me that 50% of the renaming of the Department of Health as the young people say that their apprenticeship salary does Department of Health and Social Care. Attached to not enable them to afford basic living costs. What action 15 Apprenticeships [LORDS] Apprenticeships 16

[THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER] Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab): My Lords, does are the Government taking to address issues in the the Minister accept that if we are no longer in the benefits framework which adversely affect the ability single market and under the European Union requirement of young people from disadvantaged backgrounds to for the free movement of labour, there will be much successfully complete their apprenticeships? greater incentive for employers to increase the number, and improve the quality, of the apprenticeships they Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, one of the offer to our disadvantaged young people? core principles of an apprenticeship is that it is a genuine job, and it is treated accordingly in the benefits Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord is system. Therefore, a young person on an apprenticeship absolutely right: that is why we are putting so much will receive at least the national minimum wage, which effort into developing our own apprenticeships. The will increase to £3.70 per hour for apprenticeships Institute for Apprenticeships is looking particularly at from this April. The Low Pay Commission estimates setting high standards to ensure that employers have that up to 34,000 apprenticeships will benefit from the right people on board and that this country has the that. However, for apprentices claiming benefits in necessary skills to ensure that we can stand on our their own right, financial support is available for those own two feet after Brexit. on low incomes and young people may be able to claim universal credit or tax credits to help with living Lord Trefgarne (Con): My Lords, is my noble friend costs. As the House will know, universal credit is an aware of the shortage of apprentices in the engineering in-work benefit, so those young claimants in work on sector, due, sadly, to a lack of encouragement on the low wages, including apprentices under contract, can part of their secondary schools? I speak as a former continue to claim support for housing. chairman of the Engineering Training Authority.

Lord Aberdare (CB): My Lords,I know from experience Viscount Younger of Leckie: That may well be the that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds case, but, as I said already, there are several initiatives may need extra help and support to enable them to with employers going into schools, to ensure that take up, and make a success of, apprenticeships: for schools can push further to encourage apprentices. It example, in areas such as travel, dress, punctuality and is important to create parity of esteem between apprentices behaviour at work. What are the Government doing to and those going along the academic path. A lot of support employers, particularly smaller employers, to work needs to be done. There are advertisements on enable them to provide that kind of support? the radio at the moment—I heard one on my way in last night—and a full marketing or promotional campaign Viscount Younger of Leckie: There are a number of is going on. initiatives. For example, the DfE and the Department for Transport are looking at ways to ease young Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, when apprentices’ travel from home to work. That could the Prime Minister announced her review yesterday, take the form of providing extra money or practical she called for parity of esteem between academic and ways of getting them to work. It is important that technical routes, to create what she called, young apprentices are not put off taking up this great “a system of tertiary education that works for all our young opportunity to get a good start in life. people”. That is certainly a worthwhile objective. Yet, bizarrely, Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, are the the Department for Work and Pensions does not class Government aware of the scepticism I have encountered apprenticeships as approved education or training, when talking to people in Yorkshire involved in this which leads to the sort of problems outlined by the area over whether the new apprenticeship scheme really right reverend Prelate in his Question. Can the Minister will be used to encourage 18 year-old school leavers to envisage a situation in which a 16 year-old goes to his take up new apprenticeships as their first job rather or her parents and says,“I’m considering an apprenticeship than companies using it to upskill those they already or going to further or higher education, and in one of employ? Can the noble Viscount assure us that the those cases you will lose my child benefit and your tax Government will make every effort to develop links credits”? It is not difficult to see what road the parents with schools to ensure that children are helped to will usher him or her down. To deal with this structural make the transition to work, particularly in areas such barrier, will the Minister speak to his colleagues from as the construction industry where skills are in desperately the Department for Work and Pensions to get them to short supply? understand that there will have to be some change if a level playing field is to be created for apprenticeships? Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord is correct: in Britain we desperately need to grow certain Viscount Younger of Leckie: The Government are skills ourselves. Encouraging employers to go into doing an enormous amount to encourage apprenticeships schools is very much work in progress. The Careers & for all, and in particular for those from disadvantaged Enterprise Company has pushed for employers to go backgrounds. The noble Lord mentioned parental input, into schools to talk to young people about opportunities. but it is a joined-up effort of parental input plus Linked to that, the traineeships, which the noble Lord schools, led by our own careers strategy. As the noble will know about, provide quality training for thousands Lord will know, schools have a mandatory obligation of young people who need to develop initial skills to to give proper careers guidance to young people. It is help them into the pipeline of getting into apprenticeships very important indeed that we raise the level of advice and on into a meaningful career. that is given to young people on careers. 17 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 18

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill The Government are taking a number of steps to Second Reading address these wider issues, including carrying out a three-year project with the Law Commission to set out 3.27 pm proposals for a long-term regulatory framework for Moved by Baroness Sugg self-driving vehicles and investing in public demonstrations of these vehicles. The Bill that we are discussing today That the Bill be now read a second time. focuses on just a few elements of the Government’s work in this area. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con): My Lords, as To ensure the safe arrival of automated vehicles, we announced in the Industrial Strategy last year,automated will need a compulsory motor insurance framework and electric vehicle technology forms an important that is fit for purpose to support consumers and part of the “future of mobility” grand challenge. This businesses involved in accidents. The Bill provides grand challenge sets out the ambition to create a that framework. Currently, as the driver’s use of the long-term, strategic dialogue and partnership between vehicle, rather than the vehicle itself, is insured, government and industry, and to support sectors that collisions involving automated vehicles that occur can drive growth in the future. The Bill creates a when the driver is legitimately disengaged from the framework to support automated and electric vehicle driving task may not be covered. Having consulted technology as it continues to develop and becomes widely and worked closely with parliamentary colleagues, more commonplace in our lives. It will lay the insurance the automotive industry and the insurance industry, framework as we prepare for fully automated vehicles the Government are creating a new compulsory insurance on our roads, and provides for infrastructure that is framework within the Bill that covers motorists both easy to use for electric vehicle owners. Along with when they are driving and when the driver has legitimately electrification, automation will make profound changes handed control to the vehicle. This framework will to our future vehicles and mobility. place a first-instance liability on insurers so that they First, on automated vehicles, it is over 85 years since can pay out to victims and, where they can, recover the UK first introduced compulsory motor insurance costs from the liable party. for drivers on British roads to protect victims of collisions We will ensure that victims continue to have quick involvingmotorvehicles.Theadventof amotorinsurance and fair access to compensation by taking steps to framework in the Road Traffic Act 1930 revolutionised align the way that consumers can buy insurance to the the car industry,enabling the mainstream sale of vehicles way they do now. As the Bill has progressed, we have and changing the way people travelled throughout the been reassured of this approach by the support offered country. Today, we face another revolutionary change by both the insurance and the vehicle manufacturing in how we travel by road, thanks to innovative advances industries. James Dalton, director of general insurance incomputingandsensortechnology.Vehiclemanufacturers policy at the Association of British Insurers, has are already delivering advanced driver-assistance systems, said: and in the near future we will see the arrival of vehicles “We support the approach the Government has taken in the capable of safely driving themselves, at least in some Bill, as this will give the industry time to prepare for the commercial circumstances or situations. rollout of fully automated driving technology”. Noble Lords may recall our debate in December on As I said, these measures are part of a broader programme last year’s report Connected and Autonomous Vehicles: to ensure that automated technology is developed here The Future? from the Lords Science and Technology and that, once ready, we are prepared to see it deployed Committee, which highlighted how automated vehicles on our roads. could present an enormous opportunity for the UK, flaggedsomeof thechallengesandmaderecommendations While we prepare for the advent of fully automated to government. I thank the committee, led by my noble vehicle technology, the Bill also seeks to encourage the friend Lord Selborne, for the helpful and insightful use of electric vehicles by expanding and improving contributionstothisexcitingfieldof automotivetechnology, the network of charge points and hydrogen refuelling and I look forward to this discussion continuing through stations for plug-in and fuel cell electric vehicles. It is the passage of the Bill. this Government’s ambition that by 2050 almost every The benefits of this new technology,for both mobility car and van will be zero-emission. This commitment and wider society, have huge potential. The public to zero-emission vehicles is technology neutral and could have their lives transformed for the better by the should be industry-led but the Government have an introduction of new and innovative mobility solutions. important role to play. We are acting now to ensure This could be particularly transformative for those that the right infrastructure is available right across who cannot currently drive: for instance, the elderly the UK to meet the needs of current and future and people with disabilities that impair them from electric vehicle drivers. More electric vehicles on our easily accessing different transport modes. Automated roads will reduce pollution and improve local air vehicles also have the potential to improve road safety quality, as well as deliver economic benefits. One in by reducing the influence of human error. In 2016, five battery electric cars sold in Europe in 2016 was human error was involved in over 85% of all reported made in the UK. UK road incidents. By automating the driving task, As numbers on our roads increase, owners need human lives could be saved on our roads. to be able to drive their vehicles and have confidence Along with opportunities, there are many challenges that they will be able to easily locate and conveniently in the area of automated vehicles, not least ethical access public charging infrastructure if they need to. questions and public acceptance of this technology. We are investing nearly £1.5 billion between April 2015 19 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 20

[BARONESS SUGG] loss on hydrocarbons, particularly taking into account and March 2021 to boost the number of electric the fact that some people will use their electric vehicles vehicles on UK roads, and the Bill is a key enabler in far more regularly than others. We need a little more delivering the infrastructure to support this. information about how hydrocarbon revenues will be The measures in the Bill will give the Government made up. Also, if home-charging rates are put up, we powers to make it easier for electric vehicle owners to might get tax evasion—as we have with pink diesel, charge their vehicles.Toimprove the consumer experience which has been a major area of tax evasion over the of using public charge points, the Bill includes the years. Secondly, the introduction of electric vehicles power to mandate a common method of payment and has consequences for west African and Middle Eastern ensure that they are equipped with certain types of politics: oil-producing countries that are dependent on physical connector. This will give consumers confidence hydrocarbon production will be in a rather difficult that, when they arrive at a public charge point, they position. I am not opposing it at all, but I am not sure will be able to plug in and pay conveniently. that we have altogether thought through the political consequences for those parts of the world. The Bill also includes powers to mandate the provision of open data on the location and availability of charge Although I welcome the provisions on battery usage, points to a common standard. This will help drivers I take a very different view on driverless vehicles. find charge points quickly and easily when they need From the 2017 Budget report, I understand that the to. To ensure the provision of sufficient infrastructure Government want to see some of them on the road by at strategic sites and overcome fears of range anxiety 2021. That worries me. I regard the development of for anyone undertaking longer journeys, the Bill provides driverless car technology as premature and, in the powers to require motorway service areas and large main, probably unnecessary—a huge black hole down fuel retailers to provide charge points and hydrogen which millions, perhaps billions, of pounds will be lost refuelling facilities. as promoters increasingly experience regulatory problems, The Bill also provides powers to require charge software failure problems,contested legal liability—despite points in the future to be “smart”—that is, they will be the first-instance arrangements that the Minister referred able to receive, understand and respond to signals sent to—roadside vehicle control technology problems, road by third parties, such as National Grid. The Bill also pricing arguments, public expenditure or infrastructure provides a power to ensure that data transmitted from constraints, traffic delays leading to congestion and, charge points to specified bodies such as National most of all, driver frustration, which does not appear Grid is not stopped or disrupted so that energy demand to have been considered to date. I foresee huge driver can be accurately mapped and addressed. These frustration with the technology. I am not suggesting requirements will enable the flexible management of that driverless vehicles will never happen; they will electricity supply and demand and the ability for electricity come one day, but only after the increasing problem of networks to balance themselves at times of peak demand. congestion has been resolved—particularly as every This will also make sure that consumers can take year there are more and more vehicles on our roads— advantage of managing their own charging patterns—for public transport has been hugely improved, and there example, charging up when electricity is cheapest and have been developments in as yet unexploited overhead potentially even selling electricity back to the grid at transport systems in inner-city areas. The high-speed times of peak demand. agenda currently being pursued is premature. I fully acknowledge that with both automated and I will take two areas where the Bill seeks to reassure electric vehicles,there are many areas that the Government us. On insurance, we had a report from the Science and need to focus on, take action on and invest in. The Bill Technology Committee in February 2017. Paragraphs 54 addresses just some of these issues but, taken together, to 59 of that excellent report are on liability and the measures in it demonstrate the readiness of the insurance and describe occasions, UK to be part of this latest transport revolution to “when an accident occurs and the car is in fully autonomous deliver easier, cleaner and safer journeys for everyone. mode. In this case the ‘driver’ is not necessarily liable and liability The Bill is designed to put the UK on the front foot, could lie with the manufacturer of the vehicle”. ready to take advantage of the social and economic benefits these technologies will bring. I beg to move. The report goes on to state that there were, “some remaining issues, particularly around product liability”. 3.35 pm That is the understatement of 2017. The whole approach Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, I apologise to vehicle liability will turn into a legal nightmare in to the House because my voice is a little frail today, the end despite the assurances given by the Minister. It after a rather difficult week. is a lawyer’s dream, with different legal jurisdictions I regret to say that I have mixed feelings over the internationally drawing up different protocols, law, introduction of the Bill, although I particularly welcome appeal arrangements and perhaps even immunities. provisions dealing with battery technology. I believe If noble Lords want more evidence of that, we need that the moment the industry can claim 450 or 500-mile do no more than examine the provisions in the Bill. ranges for vehicles,particularly motor cars—with adequate Clause 3(2) states: charging points at home, on the roadside and in commercial areas—the market will take off. “The insurer or owner of an automated vehicle is not liable under section 2 to the person in charge of the vehicle where the However, I see two impediments. First, the price of accident that it caused was wholly due to the person’s negligence home-charging units will inevitably go up because the in allowing the vehicle to begin driving itself when it was not Exchequer will have to compensate for the revenue appropriate to do so”. 21 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 22

“Inappropriate to do so” will be very expensive words, customers. I should make it clear that I am not a because the lawyers will make a mint out of it. They lawyer; I am simply referring to the comments of will love that one. How about this one? others. In that decision, it was established that a “An insurance policy in respect of an automated vehicle may manufacturer owes a duty to the consumers who it exclude or limit the insurer’s liability … for damage suffered by an intends to use its products. This arose out of the need insured person arising from an accident occurring as a direct for negligence to be dependent on contract. It enforced … result of a failure to install safety-critical software updates that the concept of a duty between the parties concerned. the insured person”— The lawyers will argue that in the case of the driverless once again we are into an area that the lawyers will car the software manufacturer, or even the vehicle love— manufacturer, stands in the front line of responsibility “knows, or ought reasonably to know, are safety critical”. in both accidental damage and injury, and perhaps That is also worth a few bob. even in the unimaginable circumstance of road traffic We will end up in trench warfare between the likes Acts penalty fine payments. As I say, I am most of Microsoft, Tesla, Dyson, Ford, Mitsubishi and the unhappy about this latter part of the Bill. I know that big insurance companies and poor old Joe Bloggs, the the noble Baroness has given us assurances on first- innocent man caught in the middle, with 100 cars instance responsibility, but I do not believe that it is barping and beeping behind him as he sits at a congested going to work, or at least not yet. roundabout with two software systems in two separate cars screaming and arguing with each other over who 3.46 pm should go first. If the wrong one proceeds and clouts the other, there will be some very angry queueing Lord Borwick (Con): My Lords, I must first declare drivers behind. It will be like a road traffic accident in my interests in the register as the chairman of the Italy in the 1950s and 1960s—some noble Lords may advisory board for the GATEway Project, the recall them. Whenever there was an accident there Greenwich automated vehicle test project which is would be a huge crowd of people surrounding the running automated pods around the Greenwich peninsula. cars. The reason was of course because there was only It is particularly concentrating on the human reactions third-party insurance and someone was going to pay. to automated vehicles. Historically, I was the executive That is the kind of argument that I see us getting into. chairman and founder of an engineeringly fascinating but financially disastrous business called Modec, which I have another example on software conflict. manufactured and sold 400 pure electric delivery vehicles. Clause 2(2)(d) states that: We sold them around the world to brave pioneers like “Where … an accident is caused by an automated vehicle UPS, FedEx and Tesco. This was a zero-emission, when driving itself”, battery-powered truck where the only emissions of and, carbon dioxide came from the driver. Alas, the idea “a person suffers damage as a result of the accident”, came around too early, by at least 15 years, and I had the insurer is liable for the damage. But which car’s to shut it down, but it did teach me a few things about insurer? I heard insurance companies referred to, but electric vehicle manufacture—notably, that pioneering will they stand up at the end of the day? People pay is expensive. premiums to insurance companies and there comes a I first welcomed this Bill as a good step forward, point where someone has to take a decision on conditions but when I looked at it in detail, I did not think that it of software conflict. had been fully thought through. It seems to be a Bill I ask myself a simple question. Should a vehicle that says, “Something must be done!”, but it does not owner who is not driving, an attendant driver,a passenger really say what is to be done. Take, for instance, the or any other person be held responsible in law in any definitions set out in Clause 8 in Part 2 of the Bill. way for a software malfunction beyond their knowledge There is a definition for a “hydrogen refuelling point”, or control that leads to damage to another vehicle or but those points are not mentioned anywhere else injury to others? By others I mean people in the car other than in the definition, nor does the Bill aim to allegedly at fault, persons in another vehicle, pedestrians legislate for them, so why are we attempting to define in the street or persons on private property. What hydrogen refuelling points in this Bill? In fact, one about a multiple accident on a motorway? That will be might argue that Part 2 provides powers only to regulate an interesting one for the lawyers. and does not produce new legislation at all. That brings me to the equally important issue of I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will offences under the road traffic Acts. Again, I ask a agree that it is important to get more electric vehicles simple question: who is liable when the software leads into the market, not least because of the enormous the vehicle to drive down a cycle lane, which is punishable improvements to air quality that can be delivered as a in law? Who is liable if the vehicle turns right at a “No result. She will no doubt agree that leadership is better right-hand turn” sign, which is punishable; or exceeds than legislation to achieve this. Would she therefore the speed limit, which is punishable; passes through a agree to add what pressure she can to the authorities red light, which is punishable; or enters a one-way in this noble House to ensure that electrical charging street the wrong way—punishable? I have no reason to points are installed in our noble car park at the front believe that these issues have been sorted out. of the Palace? Should we not install the very same sort Finally, I have been referred to case law which is of points that we are contemplating requiring large based on a House of Lords decision of 1925: Donoghue petrol stations to have? v Stevenson, known as the “snail in the bottle” case. It Yesterday, I had the privilege of taking a test drive established the civil tort of negligence and obliged in a new Nissan Leaf, a car that will be made in manufacturers to observe a duty of care towards Sunderland very soon. It can be recharged quickly, 23 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 24

[LORD BORWICK] it to be incapable of driving itself unsafely”. Could we in about 40 minutes, so you can imagine that during a have a meeting in which the Minister can explain to long journey that will be a chance for the driver to me slowly—very slowly—the meaning of, “a requirement have a welcome cup of tea while the Nissan Leaf is for it to be incapable of driving itself unsafely”? recharging. But in a motorway service station, the There is another “must” in Clause 1(3): restaurant is always some way away from the pumps, “The Secretary … must publish the list … each time it is for health and safety reasons. Will the regulations revised”. contemplated in Part 2 deal with installing the charge Is this practical when the Tesla, for example, may have points somewhere more convenient to the driver? the ability to safely drive itself turned on or off by My noble friend the Minister has mentioned that remote software? When Tesla remotely downloads the Bill is important to achieve the ambition of making software, must a new edition of the Secretary’s list be the UK a centre of excellence for electric and autonomous issued? Is my noble friend sure that this is practicable? vehicles. I share that ambition, but I am not sure that One of the biggest costs in the insurance industry the Bill as presently drafted and without the regulations comes from ignorance, either of the driver or other helps to achieve it. road users. One of the advantages of autonomous I have quite a few comments about Part 1, specifically vehicles is in the number of television or LIDAR about the insurance of automated vehicles. I noticed cameras that they will carry. This trend is already the word “must” in the first line of Clause 1(1). I do starting with dash cams, but I would like to ensure not understand the implications of it. Does it make that the guilty party in a crash does not feel tempted to the Secretary of State liable if he fails to do this task? delete the evidence from their car cameras. More Why do we have “must” when the more usual “may” cameras ought to reduce the cost of insurance. would do? The words in Clause 1(1)(a) and (b) are Finally, I suggest that the regulation-making clauses different, in that paragraph (a) defines that the vehicle should be amended. I have discussed this Bill with travels on the roads but paragraph (b) does not. I can lawyers who have suggested that these powers are imagine an agricultural tractor driving on the roads limited to Part 2 and therefore are relevant only to manually, but autonomously only in a field. This charging points. Similar powers are needed for the would fall into both categories, but would not be an autonomous vehicle industry as they are likely to autonomous vehicle in most people’s opinion. Similarly, change faster than the electrical charge points. The the self-parking function of a vehicle such as a Nissan focus should be on putting in place legislation which is Leaf might make it fall into both paragraphs (a) and as agile as it can be. This will enable it to develop, (b), were it not for the qualification in Clause 7. adapt and evolve with the technology that it tries to What is the meaning of Clause 7(1)(a), regulate. It could also help to remove obstacles, clarify “does not need to be monitored”? grey areas and provide short, medium and long-term In the Bill, it is a phrase used to define autonomous solutions which help demonstrate that the UK is a vehicles and whether they are to be included in the list, centre of excellence for the future development, testing but in my opinion its meaning is uncertain. Does this and commercialisation of CAVs. mean level 5 in the worldwide accepted standard for To summarise, I share the Government’s aim to put autonomous vehicles, those of the SAE, the Society of the UK at the front of the pack in developing and Automotive Engineers? “Monitored” means different using these new technologies. The Bill as drafted does things to different people and is not defined in the Bill. not yet help us achieve that ambition, because it If the Government are unwilling to accept other merely enables future regulations. I hope that the organisations’standards, does it mean actually monitored regulations will help us achieve that ambition. Can my by a driver with a suitable licence, or that it actually noble friend the Minister give us an indication of needs someone sitting in the driver seat? when these regulations will be published? What does “monitored” mean? Does it include operating the vehicle from a connected iPad, as might 3.55 pm be done by a disabled driver in their wheelchair? When Lord Craig of Radley (CB): My Lords, it is a great I take the tube, there is a lever to pull in cases of pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, with emergency. Does this not mean that the carriage is his incisive critique of many aspects of the Bill. I monitored by the passenger? Similarly, with an understand that the Government are keen to be seen autonomous vehicle, if there is a button to press that to be helpful and supportive of this new technology. stops or overrides vehicles in cases of emergency—I The content and thrust of the Bill before the House hope that it does have that—does that not therefore today amply demonstrate that enthusiasm. It smacks mean that the vehicle is constantly monitored for of a “just do it” approach to this topic. I have no wish emergencies? If that is the case, surely the interpretations to be a spoil-sport but I am astonished that almost outlined in Clause 7 mean that there will be no vehicles nothing is said, let alone covered, about safety: that is, on the list at all until level 5 vehicles are sold. road safety. What does the word “safely” in, Not one element of the Bill has any realism unless “capable … of safely driving themselves”, the listed driverless vehicles are known to be safe for mean? As this will be used only when there is an use on motorways, on all other major or minor roads accident, will someone argue that the vehicle cannot up and down the country, on streets and avenues and drive safely if it cannot avoid an accident? I have in other urban settings wherever they may be cleared received an email from the Bill team that explains the and allowed to roam. The safety not only of the need by saying, “A requirement for a vehicle to be occupants of the driverless car but of all other road capable of driving itself safely is not a requirement for users must be fully considered and regulated. 25 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 26

There must be negligible probability that they will the Bill that resurrects this 19th-century word—or behave like bumper cars, banging into each other or suggest another more user-friendly descriptor should other vehicles or road users, or striking and damaging the magazine Autocar decide to claim prior rights to property. However, the Bill’s total coverage of this the word. critical issue is limited to, While I might have no difficulty sitting back and “in the Secretary of State’s opinion”— reading the paper or answering my mobile as my in Clause 1(1)(b)—and a number of references to automated vehicle—my autocar—takes me safely along “safety-critical software”. It may be that the Secretary a motorway or major dual carriageway, I doubt that I of State’s opinion will be that a particular type of could feel safe on the many narrow and winding roads vehicle can be used driverlessly only on motorways I frequently use when at home in Norfolk. Often, or dual-carriage highways, or he may have other ways when another car approaches and the road is too of bracketing or classifying different makes or models narrow for both to pass, one courteously backs to a of driverless vehicles and where, or where not, they spot where the verge has been sufficiently flattened to may go. allow enough space for the other to squeeze by. Will While manufacturers’ undertakings will be an driverless cars display such courtesy or be able to important guide, they surely cannot be the last word. decide which should reverse? How about roadworks One has but to recall the problems over diesel exhaust that require vehicles to queue and pass in turn? Will emissions to know how to answer that question. How the autocar approaching a stationary queue of cars is the Secretary of State to be satisfied that some ahead, waiting for the controlling traffic lights to go enthusiastic DIY driverless car maker’s pet construction from red to green, too far ahead to be visible from the passes muster for safety—the safety, that is, not only back of the queue, be able to distinguish that back of of the occupants of the driverless car but of all other the queue from a couple or more vehicles parked by road users? It and all driverless-capable vehicles must the side of the road, or will it erroneously decide to be well described and regulated in ways that address overtake? the fundamental point of “safe to use”. Surely some Getting such autocar decisions wrong would have MOT coverage of the automatics and its software will obvious safety risks. Even if such roadworks are hazard- be necessary, too, as the vehicle ages. signed and preregistered on GPS, there are also so-called Whatever methods the Secretary of State might use mobile roadworks, with traffic control being maintained to arrive at their opinion, there must be some clear, by two individuals with stop and go boards. Could an publicly transparent criteria that underpin the opinion automatic vehicle cope with that as well, or would and manufacturers’ claims. In her letter of 8 February such roadworks have to be banned? These are but a the Minister stated that the, couple of examples of my actual road traffic experiences “approval process, which ensures that all”, in the past couple of weeks. Until such issues are automated, resolved, the hype about the benefits that autocars will “vehicles on our roads are safe, is still in its infancy”. bring to those unable to drive themselves seems wildly She also mentioned discussions with the United Nations premature. Economic Commission for Europe on this topic. But To conclude, will the noble Baroness explain the surely we must have our own national standards set Government’s thinking on their approach to safety in out if we wish to be in the vanguard of using this new the regulation, approval and use of autocars? I am of technology. course confident that her department will have been The repeated use of the phrase “safety-critical software” giving safety much thought—so, if the noble Baroness worries me, too. It is presumably meant to sound prefers, I am happy for her to write to me. With that, I reassuring—until we ask how “safety-critical”is defined have no other points to raise. and who decides. Does it not imply that the vehicle was unsafe before the software update? There are also 4.03 pm the so-called ethical and moral issues touched on in Viscount Goschen (Con): My Lords, I say at the debates in the other place. I shall not dwell on them, outset that I very much welcome the Bill. The Government but of course they will need resolution. are indeed to be commended for making a start—it is Without in any way trying to detract from the really only a start—on the creation of a regulatory purpose of the Bill, I invite the noble Baroness to give framework for the operation of autonomous vehicles some indication or explanation as to how the Government and for enhancing the infrastructure to support electric view and will deal with the road safety and ethical vehicles.I add my usual, somewhat tangential, declaration aspects of these vehicles and give insurers confidence of interest in that I work for an executive search firm in the safety performance of the new vehicles that they which serves the high-technology and manufacturing will be asked to insure. On a perhaps slightly lighter sectors, among others. note, I hope that a more user-friendly word or expression Perhaps the first thing to say is that this is a field than the phrases “driverless vehicle” or the even more which is developing incredibly rapidly and is therefore legalistic and laborious “automated vehicle when driving unbelievably difficult to legislate for with any degree itself” might be adopted. Once these vehicles become of certainty. We should all understand that while we more than a pipe dream, the public will surely have are not quite ready for the operation of fully autonomous coined a word. Look how the word “mobile” has been vehicles, what we are discussing is not a pipe dream or coined for such telephones. Might the now archaic science fiction: although it must be considerably word “autocar”, unhyphenated, first in use in the 1880s, refined, the core technology exists now. The challenges and “autovan”, et cetera, be adopted? Perhaps the are much less about the physical operation of the Minister might consider this use, with a definition in vehicle and more about the interaction with other 27 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 28

[VISCOUNT GOSCHEN] the Bill is a creditable and important first step. However, parties and the regulatory and safety framework that it is only that, and on its own it will achieve very little the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, referred to a until we see the other areas of important regulation moment ago. which will actually facilitate the operation of these Commercial aircraft have been utilising auto-land vehicles. None the less, it is a start and the Government and fully automatic control systems for many years, are to be congratulated on it. with extremely high levels of reliability and integrity. The structure for how we approach the broader Of course, they are operating in a highly controlled regulation of AVs is both highly complex and evolving. environment, but in terms of the physical operation of I think that the boundaries between the regulation of very complex machines in three dimensions, in all road vehicles and of other forms of automated transport, weathers and at high speeds, there are no concerns. In such as aerial drones, will become increasingly blurred; the military sphere UAVs are rapidly displacing manned whether a vehicle travels along the road and whether it airborne systems. At the other end of the spectrum, leaves it for certain sections remains to be seen. The even consumer drone technology is quite extraordinarily regulatory, moral and ethical questions are legion, capable in this regard. I have seen demonstrated one particularly as we are considering not just how machines machine costing a few hundred pounds which can fly interact with each other but how they interact with many kilometres and return to its launch site, avoiding humans as fellow road users and pedestrians, and even collision with fixed and moving objects, and which is with animals. For example, what happens with policemen even capable of following a moving vehicle autonomously. trying to deal with a fast-moving situation on a These are the guides to the future. motorway—how can they communicate in the way We know that on the road real progress has been that they do with vehicles that are operated by human made in the development of autonomous vehicles, drivers? particularly their computing power and sensing Along with other noble Lords who have spoken this capabilities. In some jurisdictions prototypes are even afternoon, I ask my noble friend the Minister to give now operating on the roads; that is not without incident, at least an indication—not in any detail—of the but we should be in no doubt that the industry is Government’s thinking on how they would approach moving ahead at great pace. As we have heard, already the broader regulatory environment. Particularly many cars are supplied with automatic—as opposed contentious areas will include the certification of the to autonomous—systems such as lane assist, park autonomous systems themselves, as we have unique assist and various systems to apply the brakes to regulations. Our Highway Code in the UK is not the prevent collisions on motorways. But these do require same as that of other countries, so the Government oversight from the driver—at least, legally. I suspect will have to have the capability to evaluate the assumptions that there will be a degree of confusion over what is and algorithms that lie behind the computing for these required of the driver when he or she is operating a highly complex systems. Another area is that of training vehicle fitted with this type of system. There is an for human drivers in how they interact with autonomous important role for the Government in making drivers vehicles. There is that critical lack of eye contact, aware of their continued responsibility for collision through which one can gain an understanding of the avoidance, no matter how clever their vehicles are, other driver’s intentions—the noble and gallant Lord, until those vehicles are specified by the Secretary of Lord Craig, gave a great example of a driver reversing State in the manner envisaged by the Bill, which is courteously to prevent a traffic jam. We also need to many years off. consider integrity and the protection against hijack, What is missing now is a regulatory regime to allow for want of a better term, of these vehicles. the operation of this type of vehicle. As we have heard, it is exceptionally difficult to legislate in this The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, presented fast-moving technological arena. We can be sure that a very pessimistic view, if he will allow me. He almost whatever we envisage in your Lordships’ House this seemed to say that we should not really do anything afternoon will be outdated and superseded within just right now because it is very complicated; indeed it is, a few years. None the less, that is not an excuse for but we need to make a good start now. He should be doing nothing. There is not an option to wait and see reassured that machines really are very much better at what develops. These initiatives are being pursued performingmanymechanicalandcomputationalfunctions around the world, so we need to move forward and than humans. I suspect that if we were moving from take the first steps towards creating that framework. an autonomous environment to allow the manual Of course, technology does not recognise national operation of vehicles, there would be a bigger outcry boundaries, and if ever there was an area of the law and the risk might well be higher. The prize is there in which demanded co-operation with other countries, terms of road safety and particularly, I suggest, of surely this is it. Whatever happens in our settlement environmental reduction. with our European partners over the coming months On the subject of electric propulsion and that section and years, clearly it is absolutely vital that we pursue a of the Bill, briefly, it is indisputable that such propulsion transparent regime that is fully aligned in terms of has manysignificant benefits,particularly in environmental standards, approaches and interoperability. factors but also in terms of performance. We are As I said earlier, we have to start somewhere, and seeing an unstoppable wave of investment and new the Government have chosen to prioritise dealing with product development from almost all established insurance issues as the best place to start. I can understand automotive manufacturers and from some exciting the pressure from manufacturers and insurance companies new entrants. We know the limiting technological to set the ground rules, and we should recognise that factors—battery capacity and the length of time it 29 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 30 takes to charge the battery—and they are being addressed want to overtake in a car, goodness knows. That is rapidly. But the Government have their part to play in happening, and one of the failures of the Bill is that it seeking to address the current charging infrastructure. does not take into account the road freight sector, I suspect that once the electrical vehicle movement where the challenges are probably different. The results gains critical mass, as it almost has now,then commercial may be different, but it is definitely happening. On the imperatives, innovation and the operation of the free whole, a greater number of professional drivers are market will solve many of the problems that we seek driving or controlling them than there possibly are in to solve through the rather clunky method of primary the private car sector. legislation. I also suspect that areas of the Bill will Clause 1 refers to the listing of automated vehicles become otiose quite quickly. None the less, the and their data. I think many noble Lords will have Government have a clear role in helping to co-ordinate received a briefing from the Association of British and align interoperability,nationally and internationally, Insurers which sums up the problems of insurance and to facilitate the provision of greater infrastructure. very nicely. For me, the most important thing is for the Finally, I want to say a word about power and the Government to ensure that users of automated vehicles degree to which we take electricity for granted. I direct are able to demonstrate that their vehicle was in a fully your Lordships’ attention to a video clip on YouTube automated mode to exercise their rights under the that shows the German Olympic cyclist Robert legislation. What commitment can the Minister give Forstemann, an immensely powerful sprinter, nearly us that the data confirming the status of the vehicle at killing himself at maximum effort on a static bicycle the time of a crash will be made available to insurers connected to a generator. He struggled to maintain and the public? I hope the answer is that it will be, 700 watts of output for a number of minutes—the because it is fundamental. equivalent of climbing a 40-degree incline. His challenge What happens to pedestrians and cyclists on a road was to produce enough electricity to toast a single slice where some of the vehicles may be in automatic mode of bread; he just about manages that but afterwards and some may be being driven by one’s stepmother was completely shattered and collapsed in agony on who cannot drive, has never had a licence and has the floor. It is a great illustration of how we take for forgotten how to turn a corner? Then there are many granted the flick of a switch, whereas to move these examples that we know of, involving people on scooters vehicles around takes enormous reserves of power, and things like that. which is itself a scarce resource. I worry about the definition of a vehicle driving itself, which the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, mentioned. 4.14 pm It may be going along by itself, but it is under the control of somebody. It may be a computer or a Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, like many noble human being playing some kind of game of Matchbox Lords, I also welcome the Bill as an heroic attempt to cars or something, but somebody is in control. This deal with the challenges. It certainly has not dealt with whole idea of the vehicle driving itself will be a bit of a them all but it is a good start. get-out somehow. The complexity is well illustrated in the schedule, which to me demonstrates the need for a comprehensive The other issue is that if a vehicle is in an automatic review of all road traffic legislation. I know we will not mode, I do not believe it can possibly break the law. If get that at the moment; it would be a lawyer’s paradise. it did, like a lot of motorists and truck drivers do But the Minister mentioned some work by the Law today, it is not just about the weight of the vehicle, its Commission, which I found interesting. Its work seems speed and whether it has turned right in the wrong a bit delayed. Five years ago, the Law Commission place, because that is all recorded, or it should be. We produced an excellent report on making level crossings have to accept that everybody will be watched by Big safer not only for trains but for cars, lorries and so on, Brother all time and will not disobey the law; otherwise and we still have not seen any legislation about that. If they will presumably have their password removed and there is to be legislation, I hope this Bill does not jump will not be able to control the thing any more. the queue. There is another question related to that. You get The term “automated vehicles”also applies to railways power failures and breakdowns of computers. At some and shipping, where they are happening. We have not stage, these vehicles will break down, for whatever yet heard how you would rescue a ship in the middle of reason, and one has to find a way of rescuing them the Atlantic if the whole thing fails, but no doubt we and making them go again. As many noble Lords will will. I think drones are excluded, but the noble Viscount, know,if your computer breaks down, someone—whether Lord Goschen, talked about air. It all comes back to it is you, the retailer or someone else—has to try to public acceptance. There is already a trucking start it again, and that sometimes takes a long time. experiment—probably more than that—going on in That is a question that we need to look at. Germany.What are called “platoons”—of three trucks, On charging points, I do not think the needs of the I think—are driving down what I think is a private trucking industry have been looked at. There need to motorway. I am told that they have even found a way be many more such points. In the future, I think most of having two platoons driving together in adjacent of them will be smart, for the reasons that the Minister lanes and automatically hitching and unhitching the and other noble Lords have given. There will be a need second or third truck with no driver in it between one to get a quick charge and for your vehicle’s battery to and the other. I shall not explain where they could feed back into the grid, if that is thought to be a good have come from, but they would all be going along at idea and it makes money, to get rid of the peaks and the same pace. How you deal with other people who troughs. 31 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 32

[LORD BERKELEY] Nissan Leaf, and current technology, or certainly that It is essential that we have one common socket. available by the time we get around to making the That may seem a very small point, but many people transformation. drive to the continent—we will still go there after It is a low-cost transformation, because essentially Brexit, I am sure—and many continental cars and the roadbed is there and just requires some relatively vehicles will come here. Let us learn from the horrible inexpensive adaptation. The charging structure is there—it divergence of power sockets in Europe at the moment. certainly is around us—the third rail is there and you The Swiss have one, most of the rest of the continent can just use that, because no people are using these has another and we have a different one again. There highways. Using current technology, you would get a are very good reasons for that, but let us try to have service which was more reliable, because there would one common socket everywhere so that they are be lots of vehicles rather than the occasional train that completely interchangeable. I think we shall need one breaks down, and much more convenient. It would be socket outside everyone’s property, if they still own a much easier to deal with things going wrong, because car. I am not convinced that everyone will own cars by it is easy for a car to steer around a car which has then; I think they will hire them when they want to stopped and there is plenty of extra space on a two travel, which is another challenge. We must have many line railway. more smart charging points, taking into account not just heavy goods vehicles and so on but taxis—Uber, We as a nation would quickly get a very large black cabs or whatever we like—because otherwise population of autonomous vehicles—much larger than how will they work when the vehicle works 24 hours a anything happening anywhere else in the world. We day and they want a very quick charge? could upgrade their facilities as the technology became I am sure a lot of interesting amendments will come available, perhaps to allow them to be driven out of up in Committee and thereafter, but I wish the Bill the stations and become manual vehicles, perhaps to well. Let us hope we all try to improve it. allow them to trundle back very slowly to the station. You get a system that can evolve because it is big 4.22 pm enough to afford to change, not a series of small experiments. Wehave tens of thousands of such vehicles, Lord Lucas (Con): My Lords, I too welcome the so it is much easier for us to make a big industry out of Bill. I hope we will be able to persuade this House and it and to have a voice in evolving it. It gets around all the Government to strengthen it a bit because we need the problems mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord a Bill that is capable of dealing with standards, as Campbell-Savours: you do not have to deal with them many noble Lords have said, and we need to respond until you have the technology to do so. It would allow to emerging standards fast rather than having to wait us, rather than to be trotting along behind the French, for other Bills to come through, because we hope to be Japanese and, doubtless, the Chinese, to be at the at the forefront of development in this area. We hope forefront because we would provide the place where this is going to be one of our emerging industries. If such vehicles could be used on a large scale. we have to spend two years putting through primary legislation every time there is a new standard, we are One feature of that system, and possibly of automated very quickly going to fall off the wave front. vehicles generally, is that the vehicles would not be As many noble Lords have said, standards will be owned by individuals but by a much larger needed for how vehicles detect each other, how they organisation—perhaps the railway. That has great react, how they resolve conflicts, how they communicate advantages, because the whole business of ensuring with each other and with the overall structure of what that a vehicle is up to spec, has the latest software is going on, and indeed how they behave in particular installed and all its parts are working would become circumstances—when they are not allowed to turn the responsibility of a large-scale supplier, which could right, how fast they are allowed to go in built-up areas be made the person liable under the insurance policies and how they deal with pedestrians and cyclists. This if such things were not done. My computer keeps itself will all have to be covered by standards. Those standards up to date with software, but most people let their will evolve over time, and we must be in a position to software get out of date. The idea that all sorts of react fast to them. So I really hope the Government different versions of software would be trundling around will allow us to add to the Bill some powers for them the roads is a nightmare. I do not think that is possible. to make regulation in this area. I cannot see how a To make automated vehicles possible, we will need process of primary legislation is possibly going to some form of common ownership. We ought to reflect allow us to succeed in this area. that in the insurance clauses in the Bill. A problem that does not seem to be dealt with is the transfer of As the Minister knows, I am a proponent of control from autonomous to manual. How does the transforming our extensive slow rail network into a set autonomous vehicle, owned by some large corporation, of dedicated highways for autonomous vehicles, thinking know that the person who wishes to drive it manually of autonomous vehicles as standard passenger road is entitled to do so? I want to ensure that the data vehicles. That, to my mind, has enormous advantages. flows necessary to achieve that will be allowed under First, it allows us to begin this transformation immediately the Bill. because we are dealing with dedicated highways. There is no problem with pedestrians. There may be the odd This is a Bill with great possibilities. I shall certainly cow—there certainly is round our part of the world—but propose amendments to widen the Government’spowers, generally, there are no manually driven vehicles, no so that they can take on board the sort of developments pedestrians and nothing to obstruct the dedicated that I would like and have the powers that I think they highway. We can use current vehicles, such as the will need to govern how vehicles are owned and how 33 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 34 they operate on our roads. I suspect that the Government, However, in every single organisation in which I have and particularly the Department for Transport, have worked, digital technology has also often gone wrong. got used to seeing Southern Rail as an insoluble This is an embryonic, still nascent technology. For problem and a complete pain in the fundament—and instance, we cannot get wi-fi to work reliably in the certainly that is the way in which its passengers view Palace of Westminster. On almost all technology it—but it is not. It is an enormous and wonderful platforms, one piece of software exposes bugs in another. opportunity, which we should seize, and I really hope Malign elements at home and abroad penetrate deep that I can persuade the Government of that. into our systems. The notion that we can reach level 5 autonomy by 2021—what the Secretary of State 4.30 pm described—is a fantasy. Lord Birt (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow Toyota was the most innovative car maker in the the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who exhibited his normal second half of the 20th century. It invented lean entrepreneurial and visionary flair. manufacturing and produced reliable vehicles, thus I have no doubt whatever that, one day, all vehicles ending the era—an unwelcome part of my youth—of will be electrically powered and autonomous and that, push-starting cars in second gear on cold winter mornings. as a result, travel by road will be safer, faster and When the careful, measured CEO of Toyota’s research carbon-free.However,this Bill is but a modest, incremental arm recently said that, step towards that very distant goal. “we are not even close”, Electric vehicles are not new. In 1899, a Belgian electric vehicle, “La Jamais Contente”, which looked to level 5, I found it all too easy to believe him. As the like a torpedo with a man perched uneasily on the top, noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, illustrated brilliantly, was the very first vehicle of any kind, anywhere in the how can technology reliably master 100% of the world, to break the 100 kilometres per hour speed extraordinary complexity of the driving experience, in barrier. All new cars in the UK will have to be electric all circumstances, overnight? In a Renault test, the by 2040—earlier in some countries. Anyone purchasing sensors fogged up and the system tanked. I invite a car in or around 2030 will be wary of buying noble Lords to look at the BBC website to see the anything other than an EV, because the resale value of driverless Nissan in east London. It stops impressively a carbon emitter will become so low. So, in a little over at zebra crossings and traffic lights but it is completely 10 years, the rush to buy EVs may well have begun. thrown by the—admittedly unusual—sight of a broken- down emergency vehicle with fluorescent flashes being Currently there are 37 million vehicles in the UK, ferried on the back of a trailer with a big blue turn-right of which only 140,000 are plug-in electric—and these sign on the rear. It would have flummoxed me and it EVs have access to only 15,000 charge points at the certainly flummoxed the driverless car. moment. Think how much energy is required to move nearly 40 million heavy metal objects across long There have been many crashes of autonomous vehicles distances—the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, gave in California, not least because the way CAVs currently us a very vivid illustration of that. Full electric mobility move confuses human drivers and thus triggers human will exactly double our current demand for electricity. error. We must be extremely cautious about allowing Moreover, at the very same time, to meet our carbon CAVs on to our roads. It will certainly be a very long targets to which we have all agreed, gas and oil heating time indeed before I will be trying out a CAV on a will itself be replaced by electric heating and overall crowded M6 on a stormy winter evening and risking demand for electricity will be triple what it is now. EVs meeting one of the double platoons of heavy goods will be by far the most power-hungry devices connected vehicles described by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. to the low-voltage grid, so a massive investment in the So my third question to the Minister is: how will the local grid will be needed to cope with the huge increase licensing system for CAVs work? I simply do not in domestic demand. understand it and I suspect other noble Lords do not, My first question is: when will the Government either. What criteria will be applied before these vehicles produce a plan for the transformation of the electricity are allowed on our roads? generation and distribution system to accommodate Finally, bold, unevidenced statements appear to be this tripling of demand—a demand that must be served a growing feature of our modern politics on all sides. by non-carbon means? Furthermore, the Government’s In recent times Ministers and officials have loudly thinking on a charging infrastructure for tens of millions proclaimed, “We will keep Britain at the forefront of of EVs appears to be in its infancy, as the Bill CAV technology”, or, “We are at the front rank of demonstrates. My second question is: when will the electric vehicle technology”. There are many more Government produce a strategy for charging to match such examples. My fourth question to the Minister is: the scale of the demand that will surely occur? what evidence is there to support these confident I turn to CAVs,connected and autonomous vehicles—a claims? I can find none. If you look at the sector far less mature technology than EVs. The Secretary of analysis, the global leaders of these technologies are, State has said that we shall have, unsurprisingly: GM; Ford, which acquired Argo AI, a “fully self-driving cars, without a human operator”, collaboration between former Google and Uber executives; on UK roads by 2021. This Bill provides a framework Honda, working with Alphabet’s Waymo; and Renault for authorising such vehicles. I have been heavily involved and its partners, including Microsoft. No British names with organisations at the forefront of digital technology appear in the global tech analysis. for 25 years, including leading global players. I have I will offer some hard numbers. In the past few days the most direct experience of the awesome power of I have looked at patent applications for CAV-related these technologies and of their transformative impact. technologies to the end of 2016. US companies had 35 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 36

[LORD BIRT] existing car manufacturers but new entrants—for example, 10 times, German five times and Japanese 4 times the computer companies. They will certainly wish to work number of patents applied for by UK-based companies. closely with university groups leading the field in this What evidence does the Minister have to persuade us highly fast-moving area. Therefore, we must make that the Government’s rhetoric is justified and that we sure that we promote our national research base. are leaders and not laggards in this important new Above all, we need to deal with an issue that we have technology? We must prepare for electric vehicles and discussed many times in this House—namely, the skills we should be alert to the potential of autonomous gap and the shortage of qualified engineers in this vehicles, but we need a far bolder vision and plan for extremely fast-moving area. Again, I refer not just to both than we have yet seen from the Government in autonomous vehicles but to robotics as a whole. this Bill. We also have to ensure, as several noble Lords said, that we are around the table setting the international 4.40 pm standards. It would be disastrous if we found that our The Earl of Selborne (Con): My Lords, there is initial enthusiasm proved to be redundant because the general agreement that this Bill, while modest, is international standards were different from those we nevertheless an encouraging start. I think it is a start had pioneered. It is not just about having one common to something far wider than transport and driverless socket, which the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred vehicles; I refer particularly to the employment to, although that would certainly be a start; there are implications of robotics, and of course autonomous many other common standards which we will have to vehicles are part of that story. Over the next decade, or favour. We therefore need to think about how we look probably much longer, the Government will have to at the whole sweep of new technologies, of which deal with a whole succession of issues about how to autonomous and electric vehicles is one. bring legislation in line with transformative, often That brings me back to the Bill. Modest though its disruptive, technologies. We agree that the Bill is a scope may be, with most of the provisions concerning modest start to that. It is easy to look at insurance as a driverless cars, which address the insurance issues, the discrete issue and the industry has done some work on Bill represents a start on the legislative programme that, which I welcome, but I particularly welcome the which will be of critical importance to the successful Government’s recognition that a start has to be made. implementation of a much wider industrial strategy. If We should not disguise from ourselves the fact that, if we look at some of the detail, which has already been we are to attract inward investment in these essential referred to by several speakers, in particular my noble new technologies to deliver the industrial strategy friend Lord Borwick, there is a complete mystery as to which was published last year,we need to have legislation, what in fact a driverless vehicle is. It cannot just be in successive stages, in place to assist the overall policy. level 5, which is some years off. If you look at the table We can all speculate about the speed with which from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, these transformative technologies will be introduced. which was reproduced in the Science and Technology However, as has been pointed out, we have developed Committee’s report, which the Minister and the noble autonomous vehicles for shipping, rail and air transport, Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, referred to, you can and discrete vehicles in isolated tracks. The noble see that there are quite a lot of situations, and that Lord, Lord Berkeley,mentioned platooning in Germany. levels 3, 4 and 5 might meet the definition of a car I can see that it would not be very difficult to fence off which in certain situations is capable of safely driving or bollard off a lane of a motorway and reduce it from itself. Therefore, in Committee, unless we are to give a four lanes to three or three lanes to two and simply bonanza to lawyers, we must chisel down and decide have platooning going down that track. My noble exactly what we mean by an autonomous vehicle. I kinsman Lord Lucas has a more adventurous proposal rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, with regard to railway tracks. I am not sure whether I that the lack of adequate definitions in the Bill seems go the full way with him on that, but I would at least to be a hostage to fortune so far as legal fees are like to see some of Dr Beeching’s tracks restored in concerned. that way, even though cyclists might object. We can say with absolute certainty that, with the 4.47 pm advent of robotics, existing jobs in many sectors will Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): My Lords, I disappear—in the transport sector, drivers will, of welcome the Bill generally. As the Minister stated course,disappear—as they always do when transformative when she moved the Second Reading, the Government technologies are introduced. The secret is to try to have said that, by 2050, nearly all cars and vans should ensure that we get the required inward investment. It be zero-emission vehicles. As other noble Lords have does not have to be UK companies that are developed, said, that is not a particularly stretching target compared although it would be good if that were the case, but we to the ambitions that are being laid down by many have to make ourselves fit for purpose in terms of other countries, but to reach even this goal we will inward investment. need major improvements in both the availability and What will make companies from around the world reliability of electric charging points. I will concentrate choose the United Kingdom as the preferred place for on Part 2 and will essentially try to be practical in investment? I suggest that, first and foremost, it is our looking at what is happening around us and fairly science and engineering base and skilled workforce. It close to us. is certainly helpful to companies to have a research While the Bill starts to address the key risks and infrastructure which will advance their cause. Many of issues in rolling out electric charging points, it falls the companies involved in this area are not necessarily short on two fronts. First, it does not give the Secretary 37 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 38 of State the power to require electric charging points The Bill needs to be strengthened to a degree to to be installed at workplace car parks or residential encourage local authorities, groups of individuals and developments, or in other large public locations.Secondly, landlords to look for ways in which they can start it does not give the Secretary of State the power to working together and make early changes. Achieving require a minimum standard of reliability. This has win-win situations is possible if we approach this not been picked up greatly in the debate so far; at the matter with an open mind. As I said, it is essential to moment we have a system which is in many respects install charging points where people live and work, quite unreliable. People who use these cars often find and a start needs to be made on that. We need to go that the connections do not function. It is quite disastrous way beyond just the forecourts mentioned in the Bill. if you are out on the road and get to a charge point If we look at the size and scale of the electric charging but then find that it does not work. We need to address infrastructure being rolled out in countries such as this point much more closely to ensure that effective China, we see that our economy is at great risk of infrastructure is rolled out. falling way behind. If we are to be at all competitive, we need to scale up much faster and require many It might seem a good idea for the Bill to give the more charging points and much more infrastructure Secretary of State the power to require petrol forecourts than we are currently planning. to install charging points, but the average person will not want to leave their car charging at a forecourt Earlier,I mentioned reliability.The Bill makes reference for long periods; they will want to charge it at home. to the 11,500 charging points around the UK, but nobody The Bill should go much further than just forecourts has referred to how many of them actually work. What and allow the Government to require charge points to data do we keep on which of them do or do not work? be installed at public places such as shopping centres, Although it is good to see that, through the Bill, the leisure centres, stadiums and airports. There are massive Secretary of State would be given powers to require parking areas at airports with very few facilities, despite data on charging points in the future, it appears that it all the pollution that we get there. When my noble does not enable the Secretary of State to require a friend Lord Adonis was in power, we were suggesting minimum standard of performance from them. Why bringing that to a halt if there is a problem with not? If we look at similar utilities—such as water and pollution at airports. However, very little charging is electricity—for households and businesses, we find planned for those areas and little encouragement is regulations on minimum levels of reliability. It is the being given to people to install it. We should extend same for telephones: obligations are placed on utility charge points to train stations, local golf clubs and providers to ensure that they provide a reliable service National Trust centres, where, in some cases, hundreds to the public. of cars are parked. There are no such facilities in those Running out of power in an electric vehicle is not places and, from reading the Bill, there is no indication only a major inconvenience; it could damage a business that this has even crossed the Government’s mind. and its prospects, particularly if it relies on only electric vehicles for deliveries. What a problem it is to find a Then we come to where 98% of people are located— charging point for your delivery van, but find that it domestic residences, with many people living in flats. does not work because minimum standards have not What is in the Bill to assist people to charge their cars been required and are not being met in any way. The at blocks of flats and residential developments, as well charging point can be left unrepaired for considerable as at large office car parks, where vehicles are parked periods of time—as is the case with many of them, for a lot of time? Electric charging points are needed which are not immediately righted when they break there. Before making it a mandatory requirement, the down. We need to have a look at this and see whether Bill should lay the groundwork for incentives to be we can find ways to avoid the frustrations that people introduced in many of these areas so that people can currently encounter when they find so much unreliability look positively at effecting changes. For example, there in the existing network. could be lower council tax rates for premises that I ask the Minister whether the Government have provide electric charging infrastructure. Have the been thinking about this and what ideas they have in Government looked at any new incentives that they mind for regulation. Is there any possibility of bringing might offer to people who change their infrastructure? something on standards into the Bill when we come to I would like a response from the Minister on the debate it in Committee? I look forward to the answers possibility of council tax being one area that could be to the questions I have posed. reviewed. 4.56 pm Speaking personally, I have been trying for two years to persuade the management board of the private Baroness Deech (CB): My Lords, I am the happy estate where I live to introduce electric charging points. owner of a new all-electric car, so I have a strong We are still talking about it but are no further forward. personal interest in this. Although I am proud to be a I live in a flat but I also have a garage, which is situated green driver, and delighted with the quiet ride and well away from the flat. We have a whole battery of freedom from queuing at petrol stations, at the same garages with no electricity in them. Cars are parked all time I have two considerable problems, one of which over the place and nobody uses the garages. If only the is addressed by this valuable Bill. garages had electricity, people would put their cars in The unaddressed one is being a pioneer. Every them to charge them and we would have a better life year, the battery life of electric cars is increased by all round because the cars would not block the roads. technology, and new cars are selling with longer mile It would be a double-win situation, but trying to get ranges than mine. So the 2017 model I have will not people to move on that is extraordinarily difficult. only suffer the usual depreciation, but will frankly be 39 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Northern Ireland Update 40

[BARONESS DEECH] Northern Ireland Update valueless: not in a year or so—I gather the selling Statement price is quite good for about a year—but quite soon, because no one will want a short-range car when they can have a longer-range battery. We pioneers deserve 5.01 pm all the subsidies we can get as we lead the way in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern persuading all, or many, drivers to go electric. Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of The second problem, which the Bill begins to address, Springbank) (Con): My Lords, with the leave of the is the range. My car’s is 120 miles maximum. The House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my distance from my home to Westminster and back is a right honourable friend the Secretary of State for 126-mile round trip. Therefore, I dare not make it Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is without being assured of being able to recharge, let as follows: alone allowing for any unexpected diversions on the “With permission I should like to make a Statement way. I am like a goat tethered to a stake, going 50 miles about the current political situation in Northern Ireland. this way, 50 miles that way, or round in circles—as Over recent weeks, there have been talks involving the tethered goats tend to go—but always going back to main political parties in Northern Ireland, particularly the centre and the comfort of the electric socket in my the two largest parties, the Democratic Unionists and garage. Sinn Féin, to see if there is a basis for re-establishing I echo the noble Lord, Lord Borwick: the Palace of the Executive. The UK Government have facilitated Westminster should be leading the way. However, there and supported these intensive negotiations. We have are no charging sockets in the House of Lords car been in close touch with all the parties, and responded park. I have been agitating over this for nearly a year. I to requests for advice and support. was told that it was impossible because this is a The Irish Government have also been involved in heritage site, not to be despoiled. However, all it takes accordance with the well-established three-stranded is an ordinary three-prong socket, perhaps in the lamp approach. I would like to place on record my appreciation posts dotted around our parking area, to allow charging of the contribution made by the Irish Foreign Minister, during debates; indeed, they provide the most convenient Simon Coveney, and his team. In addition, my right length for this exercise. Those spaces, if we can get honourable friend the Prime Minister has been consistently them set up, would have to be reserved for electric car and closely involved, speaking to party leaders and owners. Nothing is more off-putting than to arrive at a visiting Belfast last Monday. I have continued to give charging point in a car park, only to find a petrol car her up-to-date reports as the talks have progressed. parked there so that there is no hope of charging. The aim of those talks has been very clear: to bring I support as urgent Clauses 8 to 16, which give the about the re-establishment of inclusive, devolved Government power to support the charging point government at Stormont, which Northern Ireland has infrastructure. Indeed, it needs to go further. Right effectively been without for over 13 months. In so now, the Government should mandate operators to doing, we have been able to build on the progress provide uniform charging points and one method only made by my predecessor, my right honourable friend of information about them and about payment and the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup, who I warmly access. We have multiple confusing memberships, welcome back to this House today”. information packages and payment options now, which I share that welcome. The Statement continues: only add to concerns on a long trip. We need public “In the Government’s view both the DUP and Sinn charge points right now at every large garage, car Féin participated in discussions seriously and in good park, motorway service area, supermarket, station car faith, and we believe that progress towards reaching park, park and ride, in new buildings, offices and in agreement on all the key substantive issues has been residential areas, not to mention the House of Lords. made. It became possible in the light of this progress It is not good enough to wait until this place is to identify a basis for a possible agreement to allow an refurbished. There are lots of reasons to refurbish it Executive to be formed, embracing how the parties but we should not have to wait to get simple, three-point ensured the Executive was sustainable and how they plugs installed in our car park. The information about reached a balanced and fair accommodation on the charging needs to be consistent and transparent right difficult issues of language and culture and how this now. It is not good enough to wait for the market to do was reflected in a package of legislation. Many other this itself. issues were addressed too, if not always resolved. I say that because it is no surprise that, as I have Unfortunately, however, by last Wednesday it had read, the Petrol Retailers Association does not agree become clear that the current phase of talks had with pushing ahead, and there is a risk that progress reached a conclusion, without such an agreement being will be delayed indefinitely. The Government must finalised and endorsed by both parties. As I said then, send a positive message. Potential buyers will not buy it is important for everyone to reflect on the circumstances until they are assured of charging convenience, and which have led to this and their positions, both now charging points will not come about in sufficient quantities and in the future. until the purchases take off. The same was true as we What is important today is for me to give some moved from horse-drawn transport. The horses were direction as to next steps. First, as our manifesto at the always ready to go, despite the heavy maintenance, the last election set out, this Government believe in devolution mess and the smell, but we moved to petrol even under the terms of the 1998 Belfast agreement. We though there were so few petrol stations at the start. want to see local politicians taking decisions over local Let us embrace this new progress. matters accountable to a local Assembly. We need 41 Northern Ireland Update [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Northern Ireland Update 42 devolved government to help deliver a stronger economy, during the Troubles. We will continue to proceed toward to build a stronger society and to ensure that Northern a full consultation as soon as possible so that everyone Ireland’svoice is properly heard as we leave the European can have their say. Union. In addition we want to see all of the other As the House will recognise, this April marks the institutions of the agreement operating in the way that 20th anniversary of the historic Belfast agreement. was intended. That agreement, along with its successors, has been I cannot reiterate too strongly that devolved fundamental in helping Northern Ireland to move government is in the best interests of all the people of forward from its violent past to a brighter, more secure Northern Ireland because it ensures that their interests future, and this Government’ssupport for the agreements and concerns are fairly and equitably represented. It is remains steadfast. There is no doubt that Northern also in the best interests of maintaining and strengthening Ireland has taken huge strides forward in the past 20 the union, to which this Government remain fully years. In my short time as Northern Ireland Secretary, committed, consistent with the principle of consent. I have seen a place full of wonderful talent and huge So we will continue to explore with the parties whether potential, yet any commemorations this year will look the basis for a political agreement still exists, and, as decidedly hollow if Northern Ireland still has no my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has functioning Government of its own. So everyone needs reaffirmed, we stand ready to bring forward the necessary to continue striving to see devolved government restored legislation that would enable an Executive to be formed and to build a Northern Ireland fit for the future. That at the earliest opportunity. That is this Government’s remains the clear focus and determination of this clear hope and desire, and something that I believe is Government”. shared widely across the House. My Lords, that concludes the Statement. Secondly, however,things in Northern Ireland cannot simply remain in a state of limbo.A number of challenging 5.08 pm decisions will have to be taken. Ultimately,the Government Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I have a responsibility to ensure good governance and thank the Minister for repeating today’s Statement, the continued delivery of public services. In particular, and I say at the outset that we understand and appreciate as the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service has all the effort required to seek the agreement needed to made clear, there needs to be certainty and clarity re-establish the political institutions.The UK Government, about a budget for Northern Ireland for the next year the Irish Government and all the political parties have as soon as possible. I intend to take steps to provide worked hard to try to rebuild trust and deliver a deal. clarity on the budget and I will update the House as Although this round of talks has ended in failure, I soon as I am in a position to do so. This is clearly not commend all of them for their efforts. But on listening where I want to be, but in the absence of an Executive to the Statement, I have a sense of déjà vu and it is in Northern Ireland, I will have no other choice. hard to understand where, despite all this effort, progress Over the longer term, the Government will not has been made. shirk our responsibilities to take whatever steps are I took the opportunity to reread a Statement made necessary to provide certainty and stability for the last July by the former Secretary of State for Northern people of Northern Ireland while maintaining our Ireland, James Brokenshire; I am pleased to see that commitment to govern with rigorous impartiality in he is back in Parliament today. Both Statements, from the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. But July and from today, say that progress has been made. we will do that only once we are sure that all other Both say that gaps still exist on key issues, but before viable options designed to restore devolved government we were told that they were few in number. We had have been properly considered, including my current more information in the last Statement back in July on statutory obligation to call an Assembly election. where progress had been made. Both Statements say In the absence of devolution it is also right that we that the Government remain optimistic and that a deal consider the issue of salaries for Assembly Members. is achievable. At the end of last year, my right honourable friend Is the Minister to say anything more about where the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup received progress has been made this time? When the Prime recommendations on this from Mr Trevor Reaney, a Minister visited Belfast she said that there was a deal former Clerk to the Assembly. The Government will on the table. That was corroborated by the Irish need to decide shortly on the next steps. I acknowledge Government and Sinn Féin, but it was then disputed the public concern that while a number of Assembly by the DUP. To provide reassurance that progress has Members continue to carry out constituency and been made in the last 13 months, the details of where representative functions, current salaries are being there was agreement and where gaps remain should be maintained while the Assembly is not meeting. published. Can the Minister assure your Lordships’ On the issue of addressing the legacy of Northern House that he will encourage the Secretary of State to Ireland’s past, the Government have manifesto commit to providing that detail for the people of commitments to consult on the implementation of the Northern Ireland and for Parliament? Only then can bodies set out in the 2014 Stormont House agreement there be a real understanding of why the talks have and to support the reform of inquests. I would much failed so far. Such transparency may offer greater prefer to do this in the context of an agreement that support for those who really want to see the institutions sees the restoration of a devolved Executive, but I am re-established. conscious of the Government’s responsibilities to make I will give the noble Lord a personal example. At progress in this area to provide better outcomes for the end of last month, on 31 January, the report of the victims and survivors, the people who suffered most inquiry into deaths related to hyponatraemia was 43 Northern Ireland Update [LORDS] Northern Ireland Update 44

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] Political problems are nothing new to Northern published, 14 years after I set it up as a direct rule Ireland, but the current impasse that has left the Minister, following the deaths of young children. That people of Northern Ireland without a Government for report makes difficult reading into why those children almost 400 days is a profound crisis. The Government died. It also makes a number of significant and very have a clear duty to resolve it, and to preserve the important recommendations for action. Some of those Good Friday agreement and the principle of power- recommendations may have been taken forward already sharing. and others can be put in place by the relevant authorities, Many in your Lordships’ House, and many here but others need the involvement of locally elected today, have been involved in Northern Ireland and politicians in both the Assembly and ministerial roles, retained an affection and an interest. I am sure that we which Northern Ireland has been without for the last all want the Government to continue to seek resolution 13 months. I use that example because I have a personal and we will support them on legislation where necessary. connection to it, but it is not the only issue on which However, we will hold them to account to preserve the Northern Ireland needs its locally elected representatives letter and the spirit of the Good Friday agreement. to step up to the plate. They have a duty to those who elect them. Surely local people have a right to know Baroness Suttie (LD): My Lords, I, too, thank the what the areas of agreement are and the areas of Minister for repeating the Statement. On these Benches, disagreement that remain. They can then raise these we add our voice to those who feel a sense of deep issues with the decision-makers and negotiators. disappointment, and indeed some bewilderment, at Disappointingly, in the other place the Secretary of this latest failure to reach a workable agreement. State said that this was a matter not for the Government Just over one week ago, when the Taoiseach and the but for the political parties. I put it to the Government Prime Minister went to Stormont, we were led to that this is a matter which they should discuss with the believe that a deal was possible. That a positive outcome political parties and, if they refuse to agree to publication, has once again proved elusive inevitably leads us to the reasons should be made public. Transparency is ask questions about the structure, participants and now essential. transparency of the negotiation process. As Naomi Long, the leader of the Alliance Party in Northern Some in Northern Ireland are looking to the Ireland, has said, there was a degree of inevitability Government to make difficult decisions and have even that, encouraged direct rule. Direct rule is far harder to “without a more structured approach, we would not see a successful remove than it is to set up. I was told in 2002 by my outcome”. noble friend Lord Reid that I was going to be a direct This latest failure is a missed opportunity and yet rule Minister for around three months. I was then in again leaves the majority of ordinary people in Northern post for two and a half years and direct rule lasted for Ireland feeling deeply frustrated and without a three and a half. democratically elected voice at this critical time. Much-needed decisions have to be taken about how Many of us have been alarmed by those who have to ensure effective public services for the people of used this situation to oppose power-sharing and the Northern Ireland—decisions about long-term provision Belfast agreement. That is a dangerous and reckless for education, health and infrastructure development— approach. The efforts of those from all political parties, and how to build the shared society that we all want. here and in Northern Ireland, over time ended a As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has just said, civil conflict that claimed 3,500 lives. As a former Victims servants have played an excellent and vital role in the Minister in Northern Ireland, I met with many more past 13 months during this political vacuum—and we who had had their lives changed for ever through should pay tribute to their professionalism—but without injuries and loss. I trust that when a former Conservative an Executive in place there remain inevitable questions Secretary of State for Northern Ireland makes such about democratic legitimacy. comments, he is not in any way at all acting with the agreement or even the acquiescence of the Government. Three weeks ago, on a visit to Northern Ireland I welcome the comments in the Statement about the with the EU Select Committee, I was struck by the Good Friday agreement. Can the Minister confirm excellent and imaginative work being carried out by so from the Dispatch Box that the Government fully many people in the business community, as well as in support the Good Friday agreement as the only viable local government and civil society, to strengthen the long-term option for peaceful governance for Northern Northern Irish economy, most particularly at this time Ireland, and that the Government believe that its with the additional and complex challenges of Brexit. unique form of power-sharing is indispensable? However, their deep frustration that many of their plans were on hold because of the absence of an We have heard the Secretary of State say that she Executive in Stormont was palpable. intends to introduce legislation here at Westminster to On these Benches, we continue to believe firmly directly set a budget for Northern Ireland. The Minister that power-sharing devolution is vital to local democracy confirmed that. They have our support in doing so, and representative decision-making. It must be possible though it is deeply unsatisfactory to have unaccountable to find creative solutions to the current impasse. In civil servants taking decisions about schools and hospitals, that regard, can the Minister say whether thought is and the example I gave of the inquiry. However, we now being given to bringing in an external mediator to acknowledge that resources must be allocated for services chair the negotiations? I appreciate the difficulties in to be delivered. Obviously full-scale direct rule for identifying such a person given the sensitivities, Northern Ireland would regressive. personalities and challenges involved, but the events 45 Northern Ireland Update [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Northern Ireland Update 46 of last week show that such a person is now needed There are too many other avenues that we must explore. more than ever. In the light of last week’s failure, will I am conscious, again, that we must recognise that the Government consider making the talks all-party rather Belfast agreement and the successor agreements are all than just two-party as they are at present? part of and core to what we will use to go forward. I In the new circumstances, I repeat an earlier question welcome the remarks of the noble Baroness: the that I put to the Minister: in the continued absence of Opposition need to hold us to account and make sure an Executive, will the Government now give serious that we do not slip in any way from our clear commitment thought to the creative proposals put forward by the to deliver, on an impartial basis, a functioning Executive noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Trimble, among in Northern Ireland. Progress has been made; the others, for allowing the Assembly to play a role in problem, of course, is that an agreement has not been ensuring that the views of the Northern Irish people reached. The bilateral discussions have taken place; can be heard during the next few months, most especially the question is whether that information should be during the Brexit negotiations? made public. At the moment, the parties themselves Given what the Minister has said on inquests in the would prefer that information not to be made public Statement, will the Government release funds for inquests and we would prefer to allow that to continue on that into historical deaths, as was promised by David Cameron basis. when he was Prime Minister? Turning to external mediation, nothing is off the It is vital that the hard-won gains of recent decades table from this point onward. Again, my right honourable are not discarded without exploring all the options and friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will alternatives. Northern Ireland and its political leaders consider every possible way of taking this matter have in the past overcome seemingly insurmountable forward. Indeed, the issues raised by the noble Lord, problems, but this situation requires a degree of leadership Lord Alderdice, and my noble friend Lord Trimble and flexibility and a spirit of compromise that, sadly, will be part of all consideration to make sure that seem all too absent at present. Short-term party-political every possible means we have to bring about a rekindling gain must not be allowed to jeopardise two decades of of this spark, to allow these talks to deliver an Executive, progress. will be used. Nothing is off the table; indeed we have high hopes that there will be an opportunity for the Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble parties to reconvene and to once again seek to bridge Baronesses for their insightful questions. I welcome the ever-diminishing divide between the sides. This is the support—I think from all sides of this House—for what I believe all in this House, the other House and trying to move this matter forward. It is true that the all the people of Northern Ireland so clearly and sense of déjà-vu is to some degree palpable. We have needfully desire at this moment. been speaking of the closeness between the parties 5.22 pm involved. Indeed, that closeness brought about such proximity that it was anticipated that we would be Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): My Lords, the Minister making a very different Statement today, but we are is working, through no fault of his own, in some very not. We are instead making a statement, I suspect, of dangerous circumstances. I think they are even more regret that we have not been able to bridge those gaps. dangerous than some of the experiences my noble The important thing to stress here is that the UK friend Lady Smith outlined. Let me put it this way: Government have acted in good faith to try to bring will he now take the opportunity to respond to the together the two key parties that will be instrumental question contained in my noble friend’s opening remarks in forming a functioning, sustainable Executive. We and distance himself, unequivocally, from any sympathy have done all we can to facilitate that dialogue. or support—even any understanding—for those who have called in the past few days for the unravelling of I shall answer the specific questions raised. The the Good Friday agreement, or the Belfast agreement? noble Baroness, Lady Smith, put her finger on it when I say this because, without casting any aspersions, if she reflected on the inquiry she set up all those years one of the parties causing the deadlock is also ago and recognised that it is important that we are able now, apparently, calling for direct rule by the British to deliver, but it is, in truth, the people of Northern Government and is the same party that is propping up Ireland who must deliver, and it is an Executive who the British Government, and has now gone further must deliver. There is no substitute—we are not a with some of its members calling the Belfast agreement substitute and nor is the other place—for that functioning “unsustainable”, there cannot but be suspicions that Executive and it is right that the civic society of this had an effect on the conduct of these negotiations. Northern Ireland must feel a degree of frustration that Will he therefore make it absolutely plain that the this has been going on for so long. My right honourable Good Friday agreement, which has now been in place friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has for two decades and resolved problems of tragic conflict been clear that nothing will now be taken off the table: in the island of Ireland that lasted for several centuries, all aspects of the negotiations will be moved forward will be maintained, in the spirit and the letter, by this as best we can to try to bring about some sense of Government? movement. Again, let me move on. I recall the remarks of the Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble noble Lord, Lord Empey, who spoke about direct rule Lord, Lord Reid, for his question. He is right to raise being like walking down the steps of Stormont: it is it once again. I will be unequivocal and as plain as I easy to tumble down but very hard to claw your way can be: this Government do not support any of the back up. Direct rule, indeed, cannot be taken off the remarks made by those who believe that the Belfast table but nor should it be a priority or a single focus. agreement is in some way dispensable, erodible or 47 Northern Ireland Update [LORDS] Northern Ireland Update 48

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] direct rule but the people of Northern Ireland think dismissible. It is not. It is the cornerstone of our that ultimately there are two outcomes to this: one is approach and of bringing about a restored Executive. devolved government, which we need, and the other is I am happy that the noble Lord has given me an direct rule. Are there other options? Northern Ireland opportunity to make that point very plain. has become more and more divided over the past 12 months. This sectarian division has got worse and Lord Rogan (UUP): My Lords, I also welcome the worse. I do not think re-establishing the Assembly but Statement but I am slightly disappointed by some of with non-executive powers—no powers to make the content. We all want a devolved Administration in decisions—would improve that situation; I think it Northern Ireland. I will be pessimistic: I cannot see it would make it worse. happening in the near future. In the absence of devolved government in Northern Ireland, we urgently need Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble ministerial decisions in many, many departments, none Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for her comments. The more so than on a budget for Northern Ireland. For discussions inside the room remain inside that room. I some 400 days now, senior civil servants have been suspect that we are quite familiar with the points at coping without ministerial direction. When will the issue; they stem from the questions of sustainability, Minister begin to take day-to-day decisions on the culture, language and respect. But when you talk to affairs of Northern Ireland and, especially, when will the people of Northern Ireland, I suspect that other a budget be set? Civil servants wanted it to be by issues dominate their concerns, not the least of which 8 February. Today is 20 February. are health, education, wider economic growth and the questions of Brexit. This is a time when the voice of an Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble Lord Executive is required—in fact, it is overdue—in those for his question. My right honourable friend the Secretary discussions and, again, the people of Northern Ireland of State has made it plain that she will now begin are the ones who are losing out because of that situation. serious discussions on a budget and she will return to There is no doubt that all options are to be considered— the other place by the end of March to deliver on that but, at heart, we must recognise now that the people of commitment. We cannot continue to kick the can Northern Ireland deserve a functioning Executive and down the road. That is why these deliberations will that it is beholden on all the parties to deliver it. The need to be much more far-reaching than the discussions United Kingdom Government remain committed to we had what seems only a few months ago, when we facilitating that dialogue in any way that they can, but brought the previous Northern Ireland budget through we need to get off the spot and make progress. this place. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, for his comments. Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, with the background of Brexit, does the Minister recognise Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, as one who was that the potential long-term damage to the peace of present at many meetings with the late Ian Paisley—Lord Northern Ireland is particularly acute at this time? I Bannside—when he was breathing new life into the want to state my concern at the suggestion of a return Good Friday agreement, Mrs Foster’s statement last to direct rule. I share the concern expressed around the week brought a chill to my heart. Will my noble friend Chamber. Does the Minister agree that it is imperative pursue with vigour the suggestion contained in the in the short term that the Prime Minister takes a more comments and questions of the noble Baroness, Lady positive and visible lead in these events, as John Major, Suttie, and look with real, earnest and urgent seriousness Tony Blair and David Cameron each did in their time? at the Trimble-Alderdice suggestions? The people of Does he share my concern at the comment of Arlene Northern Ireland deserve no less than that their Assembly, Foster that the Prime Minister’s involvement last week which they elected, should meet, even without an was a distraction? Executive, much as we would like to see that established at the earliest possible date. Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for her remarks. Direct Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble rule is not a panacea or a solution—and, as she has Lord, Lord Cormack, for his comments. As I said, already said, once the toothpaste is out of the tube it is nothing now can be off the table. The Trimble-Alderdice very hard to get it back in. I can assure the House that suggestions will be given due consideration. We owe it the Prime Minister has been intimately involved in to the people of Northern Ireland to deliver better these ongoing discussions. Her commitment is without government than we have thus far managed to question and her actions of late have always been achieve. mindful of trying to deliver a sustainable Executive who will deliver for the individuals who live in Northern Baroness O’Loan (CB): My Lords, I ask the Minister Ireland. Going forward from here, I do not doubt my whether the issues that actually matter to the people of right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s continued Northern Ireland—the economy, Brexit, dealing with commitment and that she will continue to act in the the past, health, education—have been discussed at all best interests of the people of Northern Ireland to try between the parties in the 400 days since we ceased to to bring about a dialogue that delivers an outcome have a representative Government, or is it that for that works for them. I believe that is in the interests of these past 400 days there has been discussion of same-sex all the parties there. marriage, the Irish language Act and the Ulster-Scots language Act? If it is, we are going nowhere. He has Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP): My Lords, I too just said that there are too many avenues to explore to welcome the Statement this afternoon. I also welcome move to direct rule. I am not advocating moving to the fact that Her Majesty’s Government are now to set 49 Northern Ireland Update [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Northern Ireland Update 50 a budget for Northern Ireland—especially to help our outside the box and nothing is off the table, may I put public services, which are going through a very difficult back on to the table the 1998 Belfast agreement, as it time. I heard the comment about an independent was voted on by 71.2% in the north and over 90% in chair. However, knowing the politics of Northern the Republic? If we are leaving the European Union Ireland and having been Speaker of an Assembly that on the basis of 52%, in all fairness we are entitled to lasted almost 10 years, I think that they would probably have the vote that we made honoured and implemented spend some time arguing over who that person might as it was voted on in 1998. be—so I do not think we should add fuel to a very difficult situation. Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Lord, Lord At this moment in time, Northern Ireland is not in Empey, makes a very forceful intervention. The details a good place. It gives me no pleasure to say that, so we of the discussions that took place between the two all have to be careful with our words and actions while principal interlocutors will not be made public. At we see whether we can resolve the last remaining issue present the parties agree that, were they to be made of the project. Does the Minister agree that political public, they might continue to prolong the challenges progress can be built only on an accommodation that that they face in trying to secure ongoing agreement. can be supported by the whole community, and which We will honour that approach. is shared, fair and balanced? Despite the setbacks over On the broader question of the Belfast agreement the last few days, we as a party are determined to and its successor agreements, at their heart is, I hope, a secure devolution for Northern Ireland. I say clearly in recognition of respect from all the participants—not this House today that we will leave no stone unturned just the two principal parties but the other parties in to try to resolve this issue. Can the Minister assure the Northern Ireland as well. That is whymy right honourable House—and settle unionist nerves as well—that Dublin friend the Prime Minister, in her ongoing dialogue will not be involved in the internal affairs of Northern with the two principal parties, recognises very clearly Ireland? The Minister needs to clarify that important that there are others to be taken into account when we point if we are to settle everybody down and get back make these positions clear. I hope—I desperately hope— to trying to resolve what I believe is the last remaining that we can make progress going forward and work issue. on a basis of respect. With the good will that I know exists across Northern Ireland, the urgency brought Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble about by Brexit and the reality of the challenges Lord, Lord Hay, for his intervention. It is in the faced by the various communities in Northern Ireland— interests of all the people of Northern Ireland that we whether that be on the economy,education or health—this achieve good government. Now more than ever, good is the time to deliver an Executive, now more than government will be delivered by devolution—by a ever. functioning Executive—but at heart it will have to be delivered for Northern Ireland no matter what happens, because we cannot keep kicking the can Lord Bew (CB): My Lords, I thank the Minister for down the road. The three-stranded approach will be at the Statement and the rather elegant balance he has the heart of our ongoing discussions with all parties, achieved between a ringing defence of the Belfast but I am happy to confirm to the noble Lord that no agreement and some wise and sensible words about joint approach to the administration of government the immediate future. Does he agree that it is even between the United Kingdom and Ireland is on the more important to defend the Good Friday agreement cards. of 1998 at this point, because of the deal that we reached with Europe on 8 December? If paragraphs 49 Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, the noble Baroness, and 50 of it mean anything, they require a viable Lady Smith, talked about transparency. We have a working of the institutions and the agreements reached “she said/she said” argument at home over what was in 1998. It has therefore become the fate of the institutions and was not on the table, which I believe will be settled in Belfast to be caught up with the wider question of only when those documents are in the public domain. the transitional agreement that was reached with the I seem to recall the late Lord Bannside talking many European Union at the beginning of December, so times about secret documents; well, now there is a that is an even further reason for the ringing defence chance to make secret documents public. Let us see that the Minister has offered for the institutions of what was on the table. 1998. I say this knowing that the policy department of The Minister said in his Statement: the European Parliament has just published an excellent report by Lars Karlsson, the Swedish customs expert, “First, as our manifesto at the last election set out, this Government believe in devolution under the terms of the 1998 saying that it is possible to avoid a hard border on the Belfast Agreement”. island of Ireland as there are technical means which No, they do not, because the terms of the 1998 Belfast will allow that to happen, even without any political agreement are not what we have today.It was butchered settlement. Even so, and despite that important in 2006 when the guts were taken out of it, after years intervention from Europe on this sometimes exaggerated of negotiation. The partnership at the centre of that issue, it is vital at this point, because of what our Government, with each community having its hand on Government said on 8 and 9 December, that the the steering wheel and the First and Deputy First agreement works. Minister being identified jointly in the Assembly by a vote of the elected Members, was torn out to suit two Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Lord, Lord parties, neither of which negotiated their part of the Bew,puts his finger upon it. The Good Friday agreement agreement in the first place. If the Minister is thinking has to work. We are in challenging times right now; 51 Northern Ireland Update[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 52

[LORD DUNCAN OF SPRINGBANK] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill there is no question about that. It is right that during Second Reading (Continued) this time the voices of Northern Ireland are heard loud and clear and are allowed to speak for themselves. 5.45 pm The last thing the people of Northern Ireland need is Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to the me speaking for them. They need to be able to articulate Minister for the skilful way in which she introduced the concerns and issues that they live with on a daily the Bill this afternoon. I am pleased that the Government basis. The transition agreement is going to be negotiated will not be Luddite and will welcome this new technology. in coming months. It is right and proper that their In doing so, they will need to be careful and interfere voices are heard. Whether they are heard through an and legislate only when it is necessary. The omens are Executive, which we hope and pray will be reformed, favourable. It may appear that the Bill does not cover or whether through individual councillors and MLAs, all the issues, but we must not forget that the Secretary with all the communities represented, we cannot ignore of State can do a lot with the construction and use the voices of those who will stand on the border regulations made under Section 42 of the Road Traffic between ourselves and the European Union. We would Act 1988. Those regulations are extensive. be short-sighted and foolish if we did. As I emphasised When I refer to a self-driving taxi, I mean a vehicle earlier, I hope that it will be through a reformed that is available for the user to call up when required Executive, chastened by the 13 months in which they but which the user does not keep, own or operate. The were absent but recognising right now that the clock is point is that the vehicle operator would not necessarily ticking and that the voices of Northern Ireland must be a conventional taxi operator. When I use the term be part of the ongoing Brexit negotiations. “self-driving vehicle”, I recognise that there are various levels of autonomy. No doubt we will discuss that in Baroness Blood (Lab): My Lords, I have listened Committee. carefully to what the Minister has said and I cannot The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, talked understand it. He tells us in one part that it is about about taxation issues relating to electric vehicles. He is the people, and in another part that the people really right to raise them. It is clear to me that at some point have nothing to do with all these secret talks and that we will have to move to a system of universal road user they cannot be told what is going on. I do not understand charging rather than relying on taxing hydrocarbons, that. I do not understand why some form of what but overall I am rather more optimistic than the noble happened cannot be put to the people of Northern Lord. Ireland to let them decide. People in the street will tell I think autonomous and electric vehicles will be you that they want to know what happened. There is very disruptive but equally beneficial. Recently there no point in having another election as the same thing has been much concern about the advent of the Uber would happen. We have to put it to the people. I am taxi service, but that will be nothing compared to the very surprised at the Conservatives: they had no problem effect of self-driving taxis. It is obvious that a major putting the Brexit referendum to the people when they component of a taxi fare is the need to pay for a driver wanted it. The Good Friday agreement came about to be available for the next fare, but by definition a through a referendum and I fail to understand why self-driving taxi will not need a driver, so that cost will this cannot be put to the people in a form that is easily be eliminated. It will also have the unfortunate effect understood. Let us take it from there. I have to tell the of eliminating the possibility of migrants earning their Minister that we are never going to get any real living as taxi-drivers, which is very common, while agreement with what is going on at the moment. their children study to be professionals later in life. When the self-driving taxi has dropped off its passenger, Lord Duncan of Springbank: I thank the noble it can be programmed to go to where it is most likely Baroness for her contribution. I would draw a distinction to pick up its next fare. Alternatively, it might go to between democracy and representative democracy. The where it can most economically recharge itself. demos—the people—have chosen particular political I welcome the insurance provisions in the Bill, parties. The Belfast agreement recognises those parties which no doubt we will look at closely in Committee. I and their role in delivering what I hope will be a fully do not share the pessimism of many noble Lords. It is functioning Executive. The people will hold their interesting that we can expect a self-driving vehicle representatives to account, and they must do so in never to commit a traffic violation; in other words, it whatever way they feel to be appropriate, given the will be programmed not to commit a traffic violation. situation that Northern Ireland finds itself in. The key That would include never going so fast that it cannot thing that I hope I leave with noble Lords today is that stop within the distance it knows to be clear.Furthermore, this Government remain fully committed to facilitating we can expect a self-driving vehicle to record all its the ongoing dialogue. We were tantalisingly close, and sensor inputs for the few minutes prior to any incident. we owe it to the people of Northern Ireland to continue This was touched on by my noble friend Lord Borwick. to reach across that divide. If we do not, Northern Thus, if there is an accident, and there will of course Ireland will be the poorer spiritually, economically be some, it will be easy to work out why it occurred and in its contribution to the ongoing and important and the data must be made available to all those with a Brexit discussions.Please be assured that this Government legitimate interest. will do all they can to bring about a fully functioning There is, however, a worry about software causing Executive. I thank all noble Lords who have made an accident. Of course, how to avoid that problem is a clear today that there is a commitment across this technical issue, not one for us, even though we can be House to deliver a fully functioning Executive. confident that there will sometimes be a problem. 53 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 54

However, I suggest that it will be nothing compared to tolerate that much concentrated demand. I expect the the risk presented by a young novice driver or someone noble Baroness will talk about smart metering, and we whose driving is impaired through drink, drugs or should listen carefully. tiredness. However, there may be a silver lining. Wind power Another disruptive effect of self-driving taxis and is still generated throughout the night when overall vehicles is that households may move from having two electrical demand is lower. It is obvious to charge up conventional cars to having one conventional car and an electrical vehicle in the middle of the night rather one electric car, or to not having a second car and than on arrival in the early evening. What is not so calling up a self-driving taxi when required. These obvious, although it has been touched on by the noble self-driving taxis will be used far more intensively than Lord, Lord Berkeley, is to use the battery capacity of our contemporary vehicles and there will be less to electric cars to feed back into the electrical distribution wear out. They will have no internal combustion engine system in the early evening when the power is needed. or complex transmission. The useful life of a The car could then charge up in the middle of the contemporary private car is about 250,000 miles with night, and it would be a simple matter to programme it a 15 to 20-year life expectancy. It is therefore currently so that it would not compromise the minimum range essential that the cost of production of a modern desired and set by the owner. The beauty of this is that conventional car is kept very low, thus we have large the problem of the capital cost of battery storage and and very efficient motor manufacturers. With self-driving wind power would be reduced. It is true that batteries taxis, the amortisation of the cost will be much better will always have only a finite amount of cycles in their since they will be much more intensively used. This life, but that could be accounted for in the commercial could mean that the cost of manufacturing these arrangements. vehicles is less important and could allow smaller While we need some understanding of the technology, manufacturers back into the market. However,in answer we do not need to worry too much about steering it. to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, That will happen automatically. The question that we and the noble Lord, Lord Birt, there are already type will have to address is how much regulation of the approval regulations in place, maintained by the utilities to put in place. Nevertheless, the electrical Department for Transport and internationally, and supply for electric vehicles could be a win/win situation these can be amended to deal with electric and where the capital cost of the batteries is amortised autonomous vehicles. So I do not think there is a over both the operation of the car and the wider electrical problem of a lack of legislation; the Secretary of State supply system. I think our discussions on this in has all the powers he needs. Committee will be very interesting. I have always resisted the suggestion that a person One of the advantages of a fully autonomous vehicle should be licensed to maintain a motor vehicle, because is that a person who is medically unable to drive will in I am a Conservative and do not want to regulate future be able to be taken somewhere by a vehicle that unless it is essential. However, there are two reasons they do not actually have to be able to drive. I have no why it may be essential with this new technology. The problem with that; it is an obvious advantage. However, first is the software problems that have already been what if someone is impaired through drink and drugs, touched on. Even now, we are seeing unscrupulous therapeutic or recreational? Wecurrently have an offence HGV operators using Defeat software to avoid the use of being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle, which is of AdBlue supplements or altering the engine mapping very sensible, but may have to review it at some point to achieve increased power and lower fuel consumption. in the future because otherwise we could have a situation The cost, of course, must be increased emissions, so where a blind person could use a self-driving taxi but a playing around with the software of the vehicle is person who had been drinking a little could not. The extremely undesirable. Clause 4 goes some way towards noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and I are very concerned addressing this issue. The second reason for needing about drink-driving. Surely in future self-driving taxis qualified technicians is that I understand that electric will mean that there is no need for anyone to drive to a vehicles can use much higher voltages than current pub or restaurant and consume any alcohol. vehicles. This presents a real risk to the operator of the In conclusion, I welcome the Bill and look forward vehicle and any unqualified technician attempting to to supporting the Minister in Committee. maintain it. My noble friend Lord Selborne talked about the need to train engineers and technicians. 5.55 pm Wherever I look, the engineers and technicians are Baroness Worthington (Non-Afl): My Lords, I am always a problem. pleased to be taking part in today’s debate. I will begin Some noble Lords have raised the issue of electricity by declaring my interests. I have taken a role in the supply, and I hope we will hear something on that internationalNGOEnvironmentalDefenseFund,heading from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who will up its European affiliate. One of our aims is to help to be following me. The population of electric vehicles is speed the transition to a net zero greenhouse gas low at the moment but I expect it will grow rapidly. emissions economy. My other interest is that I drive a For instance, my neighbour already has one and when plug-in electric vehicle and know first-hand the joys I replace my current vehicle I expect it will be electric-only. and frustrations of this mode of transport. Unlike the The problem is that if everyone comes home in the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, I lease my vehicle, which evening and connects their electric car to the electrical is one way around the problem of fearing that the next system, with each drawing 16 amps at the same time, generation will always be better than the one you have. there will be problems, a point made by the noble In my comments today I shall focus on two main Lord, Lord Birt. The supply system simply could not issues relating to the part of the Bill dealing with 55 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 56

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] which usually correspond with when it is cleanest and electric vehicles: the need to make smart-charging cheapest. It must be made mandatory for all the infrastructure mandatory now, and the need for firmer charging infrastructure installed to be connected to policy to drive investment throughout the charging the internet and capable of receiving and using a data and EV supply chain in Great Britain. signal about the state of the grid, both in real time and In my limited experience in the House I have often projected forward. judged the importance of a Bill by the size of its I am delighted that the Environmental Defense impact assessment, and unfortunately this Bill gives Fund has collaborated with the national grid and itself away by the size and brevity of its impact assessment. WWF and catalysed the publication of a live data feed Clearly more could be done using this parliamentary that already provides this data for the UK via an open opportunity. As it stands, the Bill is something of a source API. I am even more delighted that information missed opportunity, and I hope that during our scrutiny about the carbon intensity of power is increasingly we can work with the Government to turn it into a available on a European and international scale, thanks piece of legislation to truly put the UK at the forefront to the incredible talent behind electricitymap.org. These of the revolution in mobility that we are witnessing on data feeds clearly illustrate that all power is not created a global scale. equally: there are times of the day and year when it is The UK is both a large consumer and manufacturer much cleaner, thanks to the mix of generating sources of vehicles. In 2016, 3.3 million new cars were registered on the system. In order for electricity to be used here, bringing the total number of registered vehicles sustainably for transport, it is imperative that we look in the UK to 37.3 million. The latest manufacturing at the issue holistically, ensuring that the extra load on figures in the UK show that 1.7 million cars rolled off the electricity grid is timed to take advantage of cleaner the production line and 2.7 million engines were sources of power. That will help us avoid the need for manufactured here. The vast majority of all cars made costly and dirty back-up sources of power when demand and sold are conventional cars powered by internal is high. The technology to do all this already exists; the combustion engines. A recent study estimates that the Bill does not need to rely on secondary legislation to total number of electric vehicles on the road today make it the norm. We can and should do it now in across the entire globe is a mere 3 million—fewer than the Bill. all the new vehicles registered here in one year. As the There are many other issues which we will surely noble Lord, Lord Birt, mentioned, the total number of touch on in Committee, including enabling consumers EVs on the road today in the UK is around 130,000—just to add the cost of charging their car to their utility 0.3% of the total number of licensed vehicles. bills regardless of where they consume the power, and It is clear that the demand for cleaner vehicles is the need to ensure that planning regulations and building increasing, thanks to heightened awareness about the codes properly integrate electricity charging infrastructure impact of transport on the quality of our air and on into all new developments of all types and scales— climate change; the reducing costs of alternative designs; something to which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, the increasing ranges; and the wider availability of alluded. charging infrastructure. However,there are still a number I turn to my second point about zero-emission of frustrations that early adopters have to endure, and vehicles: the need for firmer policy to guide investment new legislation to address them is most welcome. Most in the necessary infrastructure and supply chains. In users will find charging at home the most convenient the industrial strategy, the Secretary of State, Greg option. However, the availability of public charging Clarke, stated: infrastructure is a key factor in allowing extended “Britain is extraordinarily well-placed to benefit from”, journeys and helping those in households without a, off-street parking to enjoy the benefits of electric vehicles. “new industrial revolution. We are an open, enterprising economy, built on invention, innovation and competition. Our universities There are just under 4,000 public charging points in and research institutions are among the best in the world. We the UK, but the network is poorly co-ordinated and have a deserved reputation for being a dependable and confident access is very patchy. There is an urgent need for a place to do business, with high standards, respected institutions, standardisation of charging regimes.Vehicles are designed and the reliable rule of law”. for mobility, yet in my experience it is common to All that is true, in particular the last point about our travel to new parts of the country only to find that use of the rule of law in driving change. access to the charging infrastructure requires membership However,we are the home of the Industrial Revolution, of a regional subscription-based club. There is currently and we still get about 70% to 80% of our primary no single national database of all publicly accessible energy from fossil fuels. Weare making progress towards charging points, and to access the widest range of decarbonisation but there is still a long way to go. The points requires the installation of a number of different Government’s clean growth strategy still projects that applications and the cross-checking of a variety of we are not on track to meet our fourth and fifth different data sources—a frustrating and time-consuming carbon budgets in the next decade, and the chief occupation. I hope that the Bill will address this. culprit for that is transport emissions. On air quality, Another aspect of EVs that must be addressed to too, we are failing to meet WHO and EU standards. facilitate their widespread uptake is the need for charging Our cities are making us sick and we are failing to to be done in a smart way, as the noble Earl, Lord move sufficiently quickly to bring down emissions of Attlee, mentioned. This means providing the right pollutants. Clearly, more needs to be done and can be technology and incentives to enable vehicles to be done.Today we start debating a potentially very important charged at times of day when power is abundant, Bill, using scarce public resources and parliamentary 57 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 58 time—but we are merely discussing enabling legislation. UK at the forefront of the race towards the modern Nothing in the Bill gives the much-needed policy mobility that we all deserve. I hope that as the Bill certainty that investors look to before committing passes through our Chamber we will succeed in making their capital. the case that it can and must be strengthened. If we had tried to build a renewable power sector on the basis of providing some enabling powers about 6.05 pm grid infrastructure standards, we would not now be Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, I start by home to a world-leading offshore wind industry and declaring an interest as the owner of an electric car. I would certainly not be building new nuclear power welcome the Bill because of the huge potential of such stations. We do not have a CCS industry in the UK vehicles to reduce congestion on our roads and improve yet, precisely because of the absence of a policy air quality. However, along with others, I must add framework. For too long we have relied on increases in that I regret that the Bill is so narrowly focused. As renewable energy across electricity, heat and transport. always, the Government claim that it is designed to This has failed, particularly in the transport sector, place us as a world leader. In practice, we are of course where emissions remain stubbornly high and rising. already lagging behind and nothing in the Bill will Other countries and states have already learned this help us leapfrog our already more successful rivals. lesson and taken action. China most recently took Let us start with the Title, which is overly specific. action to boost the market for zero-emission vehicles In 2011, the UK was a trailblazer when it announced by introducing a mandate that 10% of all vehicles sold that every new car and van should be ultra-low emission in China must be electric or equivalent by 2019, rising by 2040, but we have already been overtaken. The to 12% in 2020. This mandate is based on a similar Government last year committed to phasing out diesel policy introduced many years ago in California and by 2040—in itself, that was a reduced ambition from since adopted in nine other US states. More recently, the 2011 one—but already Norway, Austria, India, Quebec has followed suit. In Europe, there were moves Ireland and Scotland are committed to either 2030 or to introduce a similar policy as the reality of China’s an earlier date. China’s zero-emission vehicle mandate enormous policy shift started to set in and the industry has already demonstrated the surge of electric vehicle tried quickly to adapt, but the Commission’s proposals manufacturing which follows such a commitment. The were watered down. In the UK we can take up the UK will not get the investment in EVs, batteries or baton and move to match or even exceed the international charging infrastructure unless the Government up their leaders in policy-making. That is, after all, one of the game. things we are good at. There are already many jobs riding on this. There A market-based mandate for zero-emission vehicles are 7,000 people in Sunderland working on the Nissan would harness the efficiency of the private sector, Leaf, which includes 300 people working on battery ensure that support for electric vehicles and their development. There are 1,000 or more jobs in the London equivalents did not rely on the public purse and kick-start Electric Vehicle Company, which is manufacturing the investment that shows some signs of having stalled. new electric taxi. It is time that the Government took a The SMMT reports that last year UK car production wider view, and with that we need a wider Title for the volumes took a dip, and cited policy uncertainty as Bill. The Title refers specifically to electric vehicles, one of the reasons. Brexit surely plays a part in this, but Clause 8 also refers to hydrogen, which is not but so too must the announcement by the Secretary of mentioned in the sub-headings, let alone the overall State, Michael Gove, that we plan to ban the internal Title. I should be interested to know from the Minister combustion engine in 2040. That is too far away to why that is. affect investment decisions in a positive way but is As far as it goes, the Bill is welcome, but it does not certainly close enough to be disconcerting to all those go far enough. For instance, it does not mention the invested in the internal combustion engine supply issue of training. There is no recent precedent for the chain today. scale of change on which the industry is embarking at As we found in designing the Climate Change Act, this moment, and the new technologies referred to in long-term targets are useful only if they are coupled the Bill simply cannot be assimilated by engineers and with clear, unambiguous policy frameworks in the car mechanics—or enthusiastic amateurs—who trained near term. I look forward to the Government publishing for standard diesel or petrol engines. the Road to Zero strategy, but I must ask the Minister To illustrate the need for qualifications, I point out whether she thinks it is credible or proper that we that households operate on 200 volt electricity but should be debating legislation ahead of its publication. cars operate on 600 volts. That illustrates the additional Surely we should make a strategy and then legislate danger that we are talking about for those working in with a bold vision—the kind of bold vision that the the field. It is an issue of safety—and there are parallels noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Birt, referred to here with the CORGI scheme for gas engineers, which our needing. has proved very resilient, effective and important in The Committee on Climate Change has made it raising safety standards. The qualification already exists, clear that the Government need to do more to plug the and is quick and easy to access, but it needs to be gap in our carbon budgets. We have failed to adequately made compulsory, and this Bill would be an opportunity address air quality, which is a blight on our urban life. to do that. We have all the necessary reasons to act with more Clause 1 refers to a definition of automation but, conviction than the Bill sets out. I very much look like other noble Lords, I am rather confused about forward to hearing more from the Minister, who I am this, because we have cars that park themselves already, sure is, like the Government, committed to putting the cars with cruise control and cars with automated 59 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 60

[BARONESS RANDERSON] I have a couple of questions. First, on the use of emergency braking. In my view, they could all be data, it is reasonable applied to public charge points, judged to be driving themselves when that automatic but are the Government planning to make requirements process takes over. They are certainly not at level 5 in on the use of my data if I have a charge point on my the standard definition of automation. Does the Secretary house, as indeed I do—and what do the Government of State’s compulsory list, which he has to provide, mean by a charge point? Will the regulations distinguish include all those vehicles that are already on our between the different speeds? You can have standard roads? What about the insurance in relation to foreign and fast or you can have rapid, and fast is not as fast cars that are automated? Where will they come into as rapid. I am sure that there are other sorts in future the scheme of things on this? in a process of development. Are the Government In respect of automated vehicles, the Bill essentially sensitive to those technicalities, and will the regulations deals only with insurance, but other key issues will take that into account? need to be addressed. Clause 4 touches on one of We need a wider approach to the development of them—the issue of software, and its integrity. It is not charging points. It is not acceptable for electric vehicles just about ensuring that you have updated your software; to be owned only by people who happen to have it is also about the issue of cybersecurity, about data drives. We need a very much wider strategy—this Bill and their use. These cars produce vast amounts of does not provide it—to provide additional charge very valuable data. To whom does that data belong? points. The Government should be looking at a planning Does it belong to the manufacturer of the car, the process to ensure that all new developments provide manufacturer of the software, or to me? Do I have a such charge points. If not, when we look to the future, right to privacy of my data? Is there a right for me to this Bill will already be out of date. We need to work keep quiet about whether I shop in Sainsbury’s or in together to improve it and make it future proof and Tesco? I am not trivialising this issue; it is a really still useful in 10 years’ time. important one, which I believe needs to be addressed. 6.17 pm Alongside the issue of insurance, those who work in the field have also suggested to me that the current Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, we on the Labour model of car ownership will change, and we are likely Benches are broadly supportive of this Bill. Our colleagues to move to fleets of cars that we will not own but will in the other place supported it the first time round, summon up when we need them. That is much more when it was part of the Vehicle Technology and Aviation efficient because, currently, the cars we own are parked Bill. The Government have said that this Bill is about for 95% of the time and cause a great deal of congestion getting ready for the changes that we will see in in that process. Is the model of insurance that this Bill motoring over the next decades. We are told that suggests going to be suitable for the ownership of 85% of car accidents are in some way due to human fleets that we simply rent for particular times? error, and automated vehicles have a huge potential to radically improve road safety, reduce human error in Automation is not going to be an overnight change. incidents, improve traffic flow and combat our air It will happen gradually but swiftly—but it will, of quality and pollution crisis. They could also broaden course, reduce the number of accidents, because the access to mobility for elderly, disabled and vulnerable overwhelming majority of car accidents are due to people. This is all to be encouraged. driver error. The other aspect that the Bill does not The key provisions in the Bill are welcome, but they deal with is the process of modernising road layout seem to be just part of the story when it comes to and smart signage and the issue of road safety. What preparing ourselves for transportation of the future. I are the Government proposing to do to prepare us for wonder if the Government have thought ahead to the automated cars in that respect? impact that automated vehicles might have on our In Part 2 of the Bill there is a more engaged already stretched infrastructure. If the cost, dangers approach to creating the right infrastructure for electric and environmental impact of driving are brought down, vehicles. This is a field that is developing very rapidly how many people might drive their own vehicles, or be indeed. It always costs less to run an electric vehicle driven in their own vehicles, in 20 or 30 years’ time, but it is estimated that, by 2020, it will cost a comparable rather than taking public or other modes of transport? amount to an ordinary, conventional vehicle to purchase That is something we should think about. one up front. Range anxiety is still something that is The Bill updates the regulatory regime around motor with all of us who own them, and every long journey insurance, removing uncertainty for insurers and still needs careful planning. That is ironic, as everyone manufacturers for claims relating to automated vehicles. has electricity, but it does not seem to be available to It also seeks to address the inhibitors to widespread all of us. The Bill contains some sensible ideas on take-up of electric vehicles. In doing so, it gives the developing a market, and I welcome in particular Secretary of State a large number of secondary legislative Clause 13 and the attempt at standardisation. powers in relation to standards for design of charging As usual, many organisations have been in touch points and transmission of data, which I will return to with us, and it has been very informative, but I received in a minute. one email complaining about Clause 10 and the While we broadly support its aims, there are areas requirement for large fuel retailers to provide charge of the Bill on which we intend to pose questions and points. I wondered whether the organisation sending suggest amendments. Clause 1 requires the Secretary us that email had considered to whom fuel retailers of State to keep a list of automated vehicles. The will be selling fuel in 10 years’ time if not to electric definition is therefore in the hands of the Secretary of vehicle owners. That is called preparing for the future. State, an issue which remains unaddressed as the Bill 61 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 62 reaches your Lordships’ House. The Bill assumes that facilities available and the transmission of charge point there is a clear distinction between a vehicle that is data, to name but a few. We are concerned about the automated and one that is not, when the distinction Government’s liberal use of wide-ranging secondary may be more complex. The Government should make legislation and will examine the Bill more closely to sure that they draw on all available expertise and see whether they are using such powers inappropriately. consult before drawing up such a definition. We should We look forward to hearing the view of the Delegated not underestimate the size of the task of creating an Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on this. appropriate regulatory environment for these vehicles. We support the Bill but we are disappointed that it The history of creating a safe regulatory environment is not accompanied by a broader strategy to combat in transport is extremely grim. In virtually every mode poor air quality and climate change. This is an important of transport—aviation, railways or motoring—regulation opportunity missed. The proportion of renewable has caught up with the need to secure safety only after transport fuels in the UK fell from 4.93% to 4.23% in multiple crashes. It is important that a well-resourced 2015 and the Government are in danger of missing and thought-through approach is applied to developing their legally binding renewable fuels target of 10% of these regulations. Wehave to recognise that high reliance transport fuel coming from renewable sources by 2020. on digital technology platforms is a very new area. My Electric vehicles are one way for the Government to personal view is that the technology is pubescent: it is confront the air quality crisis that they are presiding full of promise and deeply unreliable. over,but the Bill could have been a much more ambitious We welcome the Government’s action to facilitate vehicle for tackling pollution and improving public automated vehicle insurance policies in the future but health. We look forward to discussing these and other we need to ensure that changes to insurance processes issues further with the Minister as the Bill progresses in the Bill do not result in policyholders being left with through your Lordships’ House. I am particularly additional costs and that there are clear lines of looking forward to the many amendments promised responsibility between manufacturers and insurers. With by the debate this afternoon. the introduction of new technology, we must ensure that we have in place cybersecurity measures against 6.25 pm hacking. Wedo not want automated vehicles or charging Baroness Sugg: My Lords, this Bill is an important points to become vulnerable or dangerous. As with piece of the Government’s broad programme of work other forms of software, automated vehicles will need to ensure that the UK continues researching, developing, to be updated and remain so to prevent safety risks. manufacturing and deploying innovation in order to The Government should require automated vehicles harness improvements in vehicle technology. I thank to be up to date for the automated function to be used. all noble Lords for their contributions. I think it is fair They should also make clear how the large amounts of to say that there is more concern from noble Lords on data stored in automated vehicles and their charging the measures related to automated vehicles than electric points will be shared and regulated. ones, so I will begin by addressing those. There are currently 11,840 charging points for electric The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and my vehicles across the UK and only seven hydrogen filling noble friend Lord Lucas raised the question of legitimate stations. There are multiple charging point operators, handover. Transferring control of an automated vehicle each with their own plugs, software, customer charges from a human driver to the automated system will, of and payment methods. If we are to increase the take-up course, require a handover process which ensures that of electric cars, we must make sure that charging the vehicle is always under the control of either the points are universally standardised across the country. driver or the automated system. We envisage that The Government should ensure that they assess the vehicle manufacturers will design that system so that it costs, benefits and feasibility of charging points so provides prompts to the driver, making them aware that we end up with a national network for both when it is legitimate for them to hand over control. We commercial and public use. We are glad that the will need to ensure that a driver does not undertake a Government have agreed to publish an updated strategy non-legitimate handover and tries to force the vehicle for promoting the uptake of electric vehicles by the to take control when it is inappropriate or operate the end of March this year and look forward to seeing it in automated system when it is not designed to be operated. due course. If they do so, they may ultimately be liable for the In making way for the number of electric vehicles consequences of those actions. on our roads to grow, we need to consider the effect The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, my noble this will have on the current workforce and the potential friend Lord Lucas, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for a skills gap. Electric and hybrid vehicles need fully and many other noble Lords raised the complex issue trained technicians and a recent study on behalf of the of software. It is not the policy intent or function of Institute of the Motor Industry showed that 81% of the Bill to provide the regulatory framework for safety independent garages found it difficult to recruit technicians and security standards of the software. That is being with the skills to work on such vehicles. Provisions developed with international standards at the level of must be put in place for mechanics and small businesses the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe to upskill, so that we may prepare the workforce as we and, domestically, as part of our ongoing regulatory develop this new technology. programme. We are playing a key part in the As I mentioned, Part 2 of the Bill is full of regulation- United Nations Economic Commission and chair a making powers for the Secretary of State. Regulations number of its committees. Based on discussions may impose requirements and prohibitions in relation with manufacturers, we expect that they will inform to payments at public charging points, services and the owners of cars when a safety update to the vehicle 63 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 64

[BARONESS SUGG] future technology. The commission is likely to consider software is needed. However,the overwhelming majority how automated vehicles could fit within the existing of these updates will be made automatically. The regulation of public transport frameworks and look at wording in the Bill places the onus on the manufacturer on-demand passenger transport provision, a point to communicate effectively about the need to install raised by my noble friend Lord Attlee. Again, where updates, but it is a complicated issue. As and when ethical considerations are relevant, the Law Commission software updates are developed further, we will need will highlight the choices which need to be made to ensure that there is clear guidance on this for both regulation-wise. It will avoid judging what may or may manufacturers and vehicle owners so that it is clear not be desirable ethical outcomes but will set out where the responsibilities lie. possible approaches to promote consistency and There are several factors which could influence the transparency.The review is being undertaken to explore reason why a collision occurred. At this stage, we are the law relating to the deployment of automated vehicles keeping the process of determining liability as it is in the United Kingdom and will consider changes now, with the courts ultimately making judgments necessary to provide a robust and future-proof legal based on the facts. Under our proposals, the insurers framework to support the deployment of the vehicles. will compensate the victim and be able to recover from It will also look at areas such as civil and criminal the liable party, which could include the manufacturer liability frameworks as they apply in the context of or any other party. The three issues of legitimate automated vehicles, product liability, sellers’ liability, handover, software and liability are examples of how the law of negligence and criminal sanctions et cetera. complicated and complex this area is. I look forward The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what data to getting into the detail of it in Committee. will be available from automated vehicles. My noble My noble friend Lord Goschen, the noble Lord, friend Lord Attlee highlighted the importance of ensuring Lord Berkeley, and other noble Lords raised the issue that this data is available to all those who need it. The of ethics. There are many important questions to be noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, asked about ethics when driving. One of these is how Lord Tunnicliffe, rightly raised concerns about the drivers respond when a collision appears unavoidable. safety of sharing this data from automated vehicles. Right now, we expect drivers to do the best they can. These vehicles will generate a huge amount of data Given that, as many noble Lords have highlighted, the during their day-to-day operation. How this data is majority of road collisions involve some form of human shared, and with whom, will have an impact on an error, the advent of automation promises to reduce individual’s privacy. This, of course, is an issue which the number of unavoidable collisions. However, it the Government take very seriously. It is expected that raises additional question about ethics. As my noble the data recorders, like most new vehicle technologies, friend Lord Attlee highlighted, with automation we will be regulated at an international level. The international can avoid the risks of novice drivers or someone debate on what data needs to be collected beyond who driving impaired through drink, drugs or tiredness, or what was in control of the automated vehicle still but reduction is not elimination and at some point needs to take place. As I said, we are actively engaged automated vehicles will be involved in unavoidable in the relevant discussions on that at the United Nations collisions. Economic Commission for Europe. We have also begun We expect the automated vehicle will be able to speaking to relevant parts of the industry to build our identify where there is a pedestrian present but may understanding of who will need to access the data, well not be able to identify any more details around how it should be shared and how to manage concerns the pedestrian’s age or gender. We do not yet know over privacy. We will continue this engagement as the about these details. When faced with such a collision, technology develops. As the noble Baroness, Lady we imagine that the automated vehicle will be programmed Randerson, pointed out, who actually owns that to maximise safety,but, again, this is still being developed. technology is an important question too. We must address these issues publicly and transparently. Many noble Lords raised the issue of standards. I Ethical issues were an important focus of the Lords take this opportunity to reassure the noble and gallant Science and Technology Committee’s report, which Lord, Lord Craig, and indeed all noble Lords, that the calls for further government-commissioned social research. Government take very seriously the approval process We are taking forward several actions from that report which ensures that all vehicles on our roads are safe to help in that discussion. for use. As my noble friend Lord Attlee pointed out, My noble friend Lord Goschen also asked about the Government already have the power to make the wider regulatory framework. I spoke about the regulations under the Road Traffic Act 1988, which Law Commission in my opening remarks. The noble could be used for automated and electric vehicles, but Lord, Lord Berkeley, also mentioned that. I will give a we certainly anticipate the need to legislate further to bit more detail on that which may address some of the safely facilitate the deployment of automated vehicles. concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and It is too early to legislate for standards at this time. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. The Law Commission many noble Lords have pointed out, the development is undertaking a three-year programme to review the of automated vehicles is in its infancy and legislating regulatory framework for road-based automated vehicles too early or unilaterally may hinder our development with a view to enable their safe deployment. Its task is of the technology and constrain our ability to steer to provide recommendations for a legal framework consensus on international standards. which can remain effective in the face of vehicles that On additional regulation-making powers to cover may no longer require a human driver, and its work automated vehicles as suggested by my noble friends will be part of a national conversation on this important Lord Borwick and Lord Lucas, that would indeed 65 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 66 allow more flexibility in the future and potentially has included supporting infrastructure. The measures future-proof this legislation. I am used to being much in the Bill cover electric batteries and hydrogen fuel more defensive when I am asking for Secretary of cell trucks as well as cars, but it will be interesting to State powers, so I am very happy to take that suggestion see whether we can do more on that. away and consider it further ahead of Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, spoke about the The definitions of “monitoring” and “safely” were importance of extending the availability of charge raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, points, as did many other noble Lords. The Bill provides and my noble friends Lord Selborne and Lord Borwick. powers to require the installation of public charging It is, of course, imperative that we get these words points only at motorway service areas and large fuel right and that we do our best to avoid complex legal retailers. The idea behind that is that these strategic arguments in the future. I will take that issue away for locations are particularly important to address anxiety consideration. I am very happy to meet noble Lords to about range for drivers on longer journeys. However, discuss this further ahead of Committee, but look it is clear that we will need many more charging points forward to discussing it further then. across the UK in the future. The recent Budget committed My noble friend Lord Lucas makes another convincing us to place greater emphasis on locating charge points case for automated vehicles on rail lines. I was very at rail stations. We have enhanced capital allowances interested to discuss this issue with him recently and to offer tax relief for companies to install recharging look forward to discussing it further as plans develop. equipment. Noble Lords also mentioned golf clubs, I turn to electric vehicles and the electricity system. which is a very good idea. We are looking at charge The noble Lord, Lord Birt, and several other noble points being installed at supermarkets, hotels and Lords mentioned managing loads on the system. Of retail centres. We shall consider adding the wider course, more electric vehicles on our roads means that provision of charge points to the Bill but, as I said, we will need more electricity to power them. Unmanaged, currently the focus is just on the large fuel retailers. this could add to the pressure on power generation in As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and the grid. However, the measures in the Bill are designed other noble Lords pointed out, planning policy is an to allow us to manage future demand and control the important tool in encouraging both residential and cost to customers. The national grid predicts only a non-residential developments to bring charge point 10% increase in demand by 2040 from electric vehicles, infrastructure into their thinking. Local planning policies which is around 6 gigawatts, and is confident that it are guided by the National Planning Policy Framework, can cope. In July 2017, the Government launched their whichstipulatesthatdevelopmentsshould,wherepractical, smart plan which set out how the system, including incorporate charging facilities. In the Budget we new sources of demand from electric vehicles, can be announced additional initiatives. After the Grenfell managed more efficiently. The measures in the Bill are review, the Government will update the building designed to relieve the pressure on the grid from regulations to mandate that all new residential electric vehicles charging during peak time. When developments must contain the enabling cabling for drivers arrive home in the evening, they will most charge points. The Government will also update road likely need their car to be charged only for when they works guidance for local authorities so that infrastructure leave in the morning. It is not necessary for this is installed when these works are happening anyway. charging to take place during the evening peak time. Officials in my department are working on the details Ideally, it will be shifted to the early hour off-peak of these measures with our colleagues in the Ministry times. of Housing, Communities and Local Government; the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, As my noble friend Lord Attlee highlighted, smart of working together with communities to deliver these charging will encourage electric vehicle users to charge charge points is good, and we will take that forward. their cars at a time when it is most beneficial for both them and the energy system. This should be cheaper Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, have the for consumers as well as reducing peak loads on the Government ruled out at this stage a differential in the energy system. This is an important area, and I look unit price for electricity used by someone to charge forward to finding the YouTube clip illustrating this their car as against the unit price for electricity consumed mentioned by my noble friend Lord Goschen. The in the home for, say, white goods, lighting and heating? noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, made a compelling case for smart charging. Clause 3 contains powers to Baroness Sugg: I do not believe that that has been make new charge points capable of monitoring energy ruled out. I will come on to our strategy, which we will consumption and transmitting that data. Clause 12 publish shortly; it will look at those kinds of issues. contains the power to require this data to be sent and The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, made a made available to relevant third parties, so there is a number of wider and compelling points about transport lot in the Bill on smart charging, but again I look emissions and how we can better influence investment forward to discussing that further. decisions. I am afraid that I do not have time to go The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about freight. into those now or to begin to address them, but I hope Wewant all road vehicles,not just cars,to be zero-emission that the noble Baroness will meet me so that we can vehicles. Personal use cars are perhaps more developed discuss that further. than haulage vehicles in this regard, but this is a key The noble Lord, Lord Birt, asked when we will area which we want to support. We have funded publish our updated strategy,which will look at managing £20 million-worth of innovation trials that have put electricity and increasing charging points. We last set around 500 low-emission vehicles into UK fleets of out our strategy on electric vehicles in 2013, so it is due companies such as Waitrose,DHL and UPS.That funding an update. While our ambition that nearly all cars and 67 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[LORDS] Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill 68

[BARONESS SUGG] Baroness Sugg: Absolutely. I hope that the noble vans should be zero-emissions vehicles by 2050 remains Baroness, Lady Deech, will be able to benefit from unchanged, obviously the market and technology have that and from the new charge points; as a pioneer of developed hugely since then, as the noble Lord, Lord the new technology she certainly deserves to. However, Birt, pointed out. It is therefore right that we review I take the point that those are only for the underground the steps we need to deliver our ambition on this. We car park and I will certainly follow up on whether we plan to publish the strategy by the end of March, and can do anything for the House of Lords car park. I hope that it will address many of the wider points The noble Baronesses, Lady Deech and Lady raised today by the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson Randerson, and other electric vehicle users all highlighted and Lady Worthington, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, the need for interoperability and access to these charge and other noble Lords. points. We recognise this, and the Bill has powers to The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made the sensible address the inconvenience to drivers of carrying around suggestion that we should have one universal charging lots of different means of access to the services, whether point. The shift to electric vehicles is being driven by that is multiple memberships, regional memberships, the global automotive industry. The Bill does not set access cards or unique applications. Obligations that out precisely which charging connector could be used the UK agreed to in the European Union alternative as the common standard in any regulation. However, fuels infrastructure directive 2014 were implemented it will allow technical specifications to be set so that nationally in October and go a little way towards drivers can be confident that they will be able to plug rectifying the current problems. That means that in and charge when they arrive at public charge points. memberships or an advanced notice period can no I am afraid that I do not have the information about longer be required before charge point access is granted, how many of these charge points are operational, but which should, we hope, assist in removing the necessity I will go back to see whether we can find that out. The for multiple memberships.However,it does not remove the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, is quite right that we must problem of a lack of consistency in the way consumers ensure that these all function as well. are expected to access different public charge points. My noble friend Lord Selborne and the noble Baroness, Each operator remains able to determine whether Lady Randerson, highlighted the importance of skills, access is by smartphone app, SMS text, phone number and I agree that we must ensure that the UK has a or any other method. As there are currently no statutory suitably skilled workforce. Motorists with electric vehicles duties on operators, our only option is to take powers will clearly expect the same level of knowledge and to legislate to ensure that drivers are offered a common customer service that they have come to expect in method of access, and the Bill gives this power. connection with conventional vehicles, and, as the My noble friend Lord Borwick and the noble Baroness, noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, points out, it is Lady Randerson, raised the issue of hydrogen. The important that we make sure that those trained in use of “public charging points” throughout the Bill these vehicles are trained safely. includes hydrogen refuelling as per the definition in As a professional body for the automotive industry, Clause 8—although, I acknowledge, not particularly the Institute of the Motor Industry is well placed to clearly. These words are very much designed to cover help government understand the challenge of ensuring hydrogen refuelling, but we will consider whether we that maintenance and repair is carried out in a professional can do something more on that in the Bill. and safe manner. There are already some level 1 to 3 On the question of level 3 vehicles, raised by the qualifications in electric vehicle maintenance and repair, noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, the Bill does not and between 30 and 50 UK colleges and training cover cars which are currently on the road; it is designed providers offer these courses. However, we can of to cover only fully automated vehicles, or so-called course do more, and I will look closely at the suggestion level 5 vehicles. made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on this. My noble friend Lord Borwick and the noble Lord, We recognise that this is a potential barrier for the Lord Tunnicliffe, raised the use of delegated powers. uptake of electric vehicles and we are already taking That is of course important. Weaim to be as transparent steps to address this. as possible in the Bill as to what will follow in regulations. On the Parliamentary Estate—I wondered whether The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee this would come up—there are currently only two is considering our memorandum and is due to publish charging points in the underground car park. A major before Committee. Policy scoping notes are being project is under way to refurbish the car park, and prepared, which outline the policy intent, the proposed around 80 car charging sockets are planned—10% of content, the approach to preparing the regulations the planned car parking spaces—with the capacity to and the indicative timings for each power, and we will add more in the future. The car park refurbishment make sure that these are available to Peers prior to project started in the summer of last year and is due to Committee so that they can be properly scrutinised. finish in summer 2019. Time is running out: if I have not been able to answer all the questions raised today, I will follow up Baroness Randerson: I add, as a piece of useful in writing. Noble Lords have highlighted the narrow information, that in the underground car park there scope of the Bill, which indeed addresses only specific are also a lot of three-pin plug sockets, and you are issues in this area. However, as my noble friend Lord entitled to park your car overnight and recharge it Goschen said, this is a first step but an important one. there using an ordinary plug. So the facility is there, The Bill will help ensure that the UK is ready for the but of course there is nothing in the House of Lords change coming in vehicles and mobility. I hope that car park. the advent of automated vehicles will not lead to the 69 Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun 70 type of world that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- Under Section 8 of the Act, the duration of a Savours, described. To use a term that is popular freezing order is limited to two years. During that today, it sounded like a “Mad Max” dystopia. two years, the Treasury is required, by Section 7 of the The powers in the Bill will help us deliver one of the Act, to keep the order under review. In order to world’s best recharging networks to support the maintain the asset freeze, the Treasury was required to Government’s ambition for almost every car and van review the case and to decide whether to make a new to be a zero-emissions vehicle by 2050. Looking to the order. The Treasury has conducted such a review and future, the Bill brings forward an important step by has decided to make a new freezing order. providing an insurance framework for autonomous The Treasury believes that making a new order vehicles which will put the UK at the forefront of remains an appropriate and proportionate measure to automatedvehicleownershipandusewhenthistechnology take. It will ensure that any assets discovered in the becomes available. UK that belong to the two individuals are immediately As I said, I am grateful for the contributions from frozen, and it will prevent the men trying to access the all noble Lords this afternoon, and for the knowledge UK financial sector. The relevant conditions required and experience that will help to improve the Bill as it to be met, in accordance with Section 4 of the Act, are passes through your Lordships’House. Many interesting still being met today—the Treasury reasonably believes points have been raised, and I will consider these that action constituting a threat to the life or property carefully before the Bill reaches Committee. of one or more nationals of the UK or residents of the UK has been or is likely to be taken by a person or Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand persons resident in a country or territory outside Committee. the UK. The freezing order is one of a limited number of Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun measures available to the UK authorities as a means Freezing Order 2018 of acting directly against Lugovoy and Kovtun. The Motion to Approve other actions include Interpol red notices and European arrest warrants, which also remain in place. The Russian 6.49 pm authorities’ refusal to accede to extradition requests Moved by Lord Young of Cookham following the murder of Mr Litvinenko and their lack of co-operation with the inquiry have blocked That the Order laid before the House on 19 January progress being made by the Metropolitan Police be approved. investigation into Lugovoy and Kovtun. There is therefore little prospect of bringing them to trial in a British Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, the 2018 court. order was laid before both Houses on 19 January of this year and came into force on 22 January. This was However, we continue to believe that the freezing to ensure that there was no gap in the freezing measures order acts as a deterrent and as a clear signal that this enforced against Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Government will not tolerate such acts on British soil the day after the publication of the Litvinenko inquiry and will take firm steps to defend our national security report on 21 January 2016. The order was debated and and rule of law. Failure to renew the asset freezes approved in the other place on 8 February. against Lugovoy and Kovtun would, I believe, risk reinforcing a damaging signal that the consequences Noble Lords will not need to be reminded that the of murder carried out in the UK are few and time-limited, independent inquiry, chaired by Sir Robert Owen, and that it is possible to evade the UK justice system concluded that Alexander Litvinenko was deliberately by fleeing overseas. poisoned in 2006 by Lugovoy and Kovtun through the use of polonium-210, a radioactive isotope. The inquiry Noble Lords will be aware that the UK’s relationship also concluded that there was a “strong probability” with the Russian Government remains strictly limited that Litvinenko, an ex-KGB and ex-FSB and a as a result of the Litvinenko assassination and the critic of the Russian Government, was murdered on illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. We continue the order of the FSB, the Russian domestic security to engage with Russia on a guarded basis, defending service.Furthermore, the killing was “probably approved” UK national security where necessary. We will continue by the then head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, and to pressure the Russian Government to do more to the Russian President, Vladimir Putin. co-operate with the investigation into Mr Litvinenko’s death. This includes the extradition of the main suspects, In response to the seriousness of the report’s the provision of satisfactory answers, and an accounting conclusions, the Treasury imposed an asset freeze on of the role and activities of its security services. Lugovoy and Kovtun on 22 January 2016 by making a freezing order under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and This new freezing order maintains the asset freeze Security Act 2001. The 2016 freezing order had the originally imposed by a similar order passed in 2016. effect of freezing any funds or assets that these two It acts as a deterrent and a signal that the UK will not individuals held in the UK or with any UK-incorporated tolerate such acts on British soil and that we will entities, denying them access to the UK financial defend our national security and the rule of law. I beg system and prohibiting UK persons from making to move. funds available to them. The Treasury routinely monitors information provided on financial sanctions on all Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, following the designated persons. During the two-year period, no protocol to declare such interests, I do so, informing relevant information was received in respect of Lugovoy the House that I am a vice-chair of the All-Party and Kovtun. Parliamentary Group on Russia. 71 Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[LORDS] Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun 72

[VISCOUNT WAVERLEY] I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Having It is the nature of the challenge—the noble Lord, reread the order, I am unclear about whether it applies Lord Young, touched on this—that UK/Russia relations to cryptocurrencies. If it does, I wonder whether the can charitably be defined as fraught. However, for ever Minister can guide me to the relevant article or paragraph wishing to see justice adhered to, and given that Russia in the order and explain to me how on earth action is highly unlikely to agree to the extradition to the against cryptocurrencies will be enforced. Because United Kingdom, not least because under the Russian those currencies are beginning to play a major role in constitution no Russian can be extradited if it undermines many areas of asset purchases and payments, it is their citizens’ rights—in addition to the concern that important that we make sure that the issue is covered, and in the UK the proceedings were, I understand, held in I would appreciate the Minister’s comments on that. camera, thus suggesting to the Russians that this process I also want to ask the Minister about the situation is all being conducted in secrecy—I understand that in the British Overseas Territories. The Government there is a willingness by Russia to make these two men have firmly refused to require the overseas territories available for interview or for a process through a to make their registers of beneficial ownership open to mechanism such as Skype or some other such means. public scrutiny. They have argued that the facility for I want to make one point about something that UK authorities to inquire whether beneficial ownership troubles me. The Foreign Secretary travelled for a is associated with individuals such as these two is bilateral meeting in Moscow with his opposite number, sufficient for them to be able to enforce. How often Foreign Minister Lavrov, on 22 December, but I have the relevant British enforcement authorities understand that the Foreign Secretary failed to discuss investigated this and are either of these men using the this case with Minister Lavrov. Since the case of overseas territories and shell companies to continue to Mr Litvinenko is a plank of UK foreign policy towards access financial services and markets? If the Minister Russia, this is surprising to me, to say the least, as it does not have an answer now, could he write to me on sends conflicting messages to the Russians. that issue? Given that background, would it not be more practical to consider encouraging other jurisdictions to assist—for 7 pm example, by calling on the International Court of Carrying on in somewhat the same vein, the Justice to play a role and, in effect, lend good offices to Government have said that they intend to have—but allow for a fair hearing to be conducted? That would have not yet put in place—a public register of the in no way suggest that the individuals in question beneficial owners of trusts or companies owning property would not receive a fair hearing here in the UK. in the UK. Can the Minister tell me whether enforcement authorities have ever checked the property records, Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, I commend the taking them back to beneficial ownership, to be sure Government for taking this action. I also commend that no shell company or trust has been, or is being, my right honourable friend the Security Minister in used by these two individuals to take proceeds or the other place for his comments about the assets of payments from the UK? Having been told that many people that have been brought here. They are enforcement action, not transparency, is the mechanism, probably illegally obtained moneys and are now held I would very much like to know how enforcement is by oligarchs in this country who are laundering them working in these instances. through the banks here and buying up a great deal of Lastly, I pay particular tribute to Alexander London real estate. Litvinenko’s wife, Marina, who persisted in her pursuit I have been put on a stop list and cannot go to of a public enquiry, despite the resistance at the time Russia. I would rather like to go to St Petersburg, of Theresa May, the then Home Secretary. Picking up never having been. I have probably been put on the the themes of earlier speakers, I hope very much that stop list because I said something slightly disobliging the Government will not let this issue go, will recognise about President Putin a few years ago. I urge the that it is fundamental and will continue to pursue Government not just to pursue this matter but to be genuine justice in this case. really fierce with the Russian Government, as I believe our Foreign Secretary has been. If the Russian Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I am very glad indeed Government get away with it, they will continue to get to hear the resolute terms in which the order has been away with it and life will get worse, not better. brought forward. It is very important to remember just how brutal Baroness Kramer (LD): My Lords, I support the and horrible the murder was and how it was deliberately continuation of the freeze on the assets of Andrey arranged in a way that would send a message to Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun, but they had years in dissenters and others in Russia itself.From that standpoint, which to reorder their finances before the first asset I think that this issue, quite apart from its legal rectitude, freeze came about in 2016. I point out that there is a has important political significance in terms of our lesson there: in the future the Government need to act relationship with Russia. I could not agree more with quickly. The delay in the public inquiry and in acting the noble Baroness about the widow,who is an absolutely to freeze the assets was, frankly, shamefully long. delightful woman and has come through this remarkably Beyond this just being a heinous crime, the murder well. It must have been sheer, undiluted hell to see her was also, as my colleague in the other place, Tom husband dying in that way. The only way that the Brake MP, said at the time of the public inquiry, an present regime in Russia gets messages is by being assault on our sovereignty. Those are two fundamental tough. Any tendency to rationalise or prevaricate on issues that should have urged us to rapid action. the issue would be disastrous; that is wrong. 73 Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun 74

I want to make one other point, quite apart from Lord West of Spithead (Lab): I speak from an the victim himself. Two weeks before this happened, intelligence background. Does the Minister agree that I heard him speak at a meeting in London, in which he when one looks at patterns of operation, the way in was outspoken in his criticism of the cold-blooded which this whole affair has been dealt with by Russia brutality of the regime. He was a very courageous is exactly the same way as it dealt with similar things man, standing by the very principles we like to claim when it was the Soviet Union—particularly its normal, as central to our society. My point is this: do we really KGB-type way of reacting and acting when these sorts let agents of a regime like that travel around London of things happen? trailing radioactivity with impunity? Where are they going? At the time, I found it astounding that they Lord Young of Cookham: I agree with the noble were just wandering round London and leaving trails Lord. It is very disappointing that these practices have of radioactivity. This is a very serious case indeed, reappeared in the Soviet Union and have damaged our with the most important issues behind it. I therefore relationship with that country. do nothing but commend the Government on the My noble friend Lord Robathan asked what we resolute terms in which they have brought the statutory were doing to stop Russian criminals from exploiting instrument forward. the UK financial system. He may know that we passed the Criminal Finances Act 2017, which introduced criminal offences relating to companies that failed to Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, I welcome this order prevent tax evasion. We made a commitment at the but I think it would be helpful to the House if the 2016 Anti-Corruption Summit to publish an anti- Minister could tell us how many persons are subject to corruption strategy, setting out a work plan through orders similar to this one and what the approximate to 2022. We have created a new National Economic total of the now-frozen assets is. I apologise to him for Crime Centre within the National Crime Agency to not warning him of these two points but I hope he can bring together all our capabilities to fight economic deal with them. crime, including the specific instances mentioned by my noble friend. Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, we on these My noble friend may also know that we recently Benches accept and believe that the order is an appropriate, introduced unexplained wealth orders, so in addition commensurate and proportionate response in relation to the action we have taken to deal with money to the specified persons. In coming to that conclusion, laundering—such as the register of beneficial owners—we we have of course looked at the order with care. I also have taken powers to require people who own property looked up the time when the first order was initiated—two that would ordinarily be beyond their obvious means years ago—only to discover that I was in fact the to prove how they lawfully acquired it. On 31 January Opposition spokesman then. Time has not changed much. this year, the regulations that introduced UWOs The noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, answered came into force. A UWO requires a person who is all my questions at that time, except one. I quote him: reasonably suspected of involvement in—or connection “As the noble Lord may know, Mrs Litvinenko’s lawyers to someone involved in—serious crime to explain the provided a list of people who she felt should have further action nature and extent of their interests in a particular taken against them. Some are members of the Russian authorities property and to explain how the property was obtained who are already under sanctions relating to Crimea and activities where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the in Ukraine. The rest of the list is being considered by the Home respondent’s known, lawfully obtained income would Secretary, but so far no action has been decided upon”.—[Official Report, 10/2/16; col. GC 228.] be insufficient to allow the respondent to obtain the property. Has any further action been decided upon for individuals on that list? The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked whether cryptocurrency was included. In Schedule 2 of the order, “funds” is fairly embracing, meaning, Lord Young of Cookham: My Lords, I am grateful “including (but not limited to) … gold, cash, cheques, claims on to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate money”, for their broad support for the order. I will try to deal et cetera, and Schedule 4, which deals with freezing with the points that have been raised, but I may have prohibitions, refers to, to write in respect of some of them. “making available the proceeds of realisation of property belonging To the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, I say that to a specified person, and … making a payment to or for the the Russian authorities should be in no doubt about benefit of a specified person”. the position the Government have taken in relation to So my advice is that the order includes cryptocurrency. Litvinenko. We have reinforced our message several I agree with the noble Baroness that it is unlikely that times: we have made very clear our profound concerns these individuals will come to the UK or indeed that to the Russian Government in Moscow, we have they have any assets in the UK. summoned the Russian ambassador to the Foreign The freezing order applies to overseas banks. The Office in London and we continue to demand that the noble Baroness asked a more specific question about Russian Government do more to co-operate with the shell companies. I would like to write to her about investigation into Mr Litvinenko’s death, including that, but if the money from a shell company went extraditing the main suspects, providing satisfactory through a bank, it would be caught by the order. She answers and accounting for the role of their security also asked about the delay in introducing the freezing service. The noble Viscount raised the issue of the ICJ. order. She will know that there was a sequence of I think that is probably a matter for the ICJ but I will events—the inquiry that culminated, eventually, in the make further inquiries. Sir Robert Owen inquiry. It was some time before we 75 Audrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[LORDS] Post-18 Education and Funding 76

[LORD YOUNG OF COOKHAM] The Technical and Further Education Act 2017 extends knew who to go for after the tragic death of Litvinenko. the responsibilities of the Institute for Apprenticeships I agree with what she and other noble Lords said to include technical education, as well as introducing about the widow, Mrs Litvinenko. degree-level apprenticeships.New institutes of technology I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, will be established which will focus on higher-level has had to wait two years for an answer to the question technical skills and will be eligible for access to loans and that he asked last time. The Government decided not grants for their students. T-levels are in development—a to implement asset-freezing orders against those true equal-standing alternative to A-levels. individuals mentioned in the letter under this legislation It is these important reforms that we will build on with the exception of Lugovoy and Kovtun but, as in this review, and we will also look at parts of the was indicated in 2016, a number of individuals on the system that are not working as well as they could be. list provided by Mrs Litvinenko’s lawyers have been While we have seen further growth in three-year degrees designated for other reasons under sanctions relating for 18 year-olds, the post-18 system does not always to Crimea and activities in Ukraine. There is an ongoing offer a comprehensive range of high-quality alternative police investigation into the two individuals that we routes for the many young people who pursue a technical discuss this evening. or vocational path at this age. In universities, we have I will have to write to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, not seen the extent of increase in choice that we would in answer to his questions about the total volume of have wanted. The great majority of courses are priced assets frozen under freezing orders. I think he went at the same level, and three-year courses are the norm. just beyond the order that we debate this evening and Meanwhile, although the funding system is a progressive his question applied to all freezing orders, so I will one, with in-built protections, these elements are not write to him. I am sorry if I have not answered all the always well understood. questions raised by noble Lords. I will write in respect of those that I have not been able to answer. It is for these reasons that the Government are committed to conducting this major review across Motion agreed. post-18 education, to look further at how we can ensure that our post-18 education system is joined up and supported by a funding system that works for Review of Post-18 Education and Funding students and taxpayers. The review will look at four Statement key strands: choice and competition across post-18 education and training; value for money for graduates 7.12 pm and taxpayers; accessibility of the system to all; and delivering the skills that our country needs. This means Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, with identifying ways to help people make more effective the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement choices between the different options available at and made in the other place by my right honourable friend after 18, so they can make more informed decisions the Secretary of State for Education. The Statement is about their futures, and making sure there is a more as follows: diverse range of options to choose from beyond classic “With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a three- or four-year undergraduate degrees. Statement on the review of post-18 education and funding. While I am not announcing new policy today, Wewill look at how students and graduates contribute I welcome the opportunity to confirm to the House to the cost of their studies to ensure that funding details of a major review across post-18 education and arrangements across post-18 education in the future funding, as announced by the Prime Minister yesterday. are transparent and do not stop people accessing Before I discuss the specifics of the review, I should higher education or training. We will examine how we highlight some of the strengths and successes of our can best ensure that people from all backgrounds have existing post-18 education system. Wehave a world-class equal opportunities to progress and succeed in post-18 higher education system. Sixteen British universities education, including considering how disadvantaged are in the world’s top 100, and four are in the top 10. students receive maintenance support, both from the We have record numbers of young people entering Government and from universities and colleges. We university, including from disadvantaged backgrounds. will look at how we can best support education outcomes Our student finance system removes up-front financial that deliver our industrial strategy ambitions, by barriers and provides protections for borrowers so contributing to a strong economy and delivering the that they have to contribute only when they can afford skills that our country needs. We are clear that we to do so. A university degree provides significant must maintain and protect key elements of our current financial returns for individuals—graduates on average post-18 education system that work well already. We benefit from their university education by over £100,000 will maintain the principle that students should contribute over their lifetime. to the cost of their studies, and we will place no cap on the number of students who can benefit from post-18 The Higher Education and Research Act sets the education. We will not regress to a system like in foundation for further improvements, with the Office Scotland, where controls on student numbers continue for Students to be a strong voice for students and to restrict the aspirations of young people. ensure minimum standards; the Director for Fair Access and Participation to drive social mobility; the Teaching The review will be informed by independent advice Outcomes and Excellence Framework—TEF—measures; from an expert panel from across post-18 education, and the facilitation of further diversity with new providers business and academia, chaired by Philip Augar, a and shorter degrees delivered at a lower cost to students. financial author and former non-executive director of 77 Post-18 Education and Funding[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Post-18 Education and Funding 78 the Department for Education. To inform its advice, being charged? It is three percentage points above the panel will carry out extensive consultation and RPI, which all observers believe is unjustified and engagement with the sector and, among others, people based on a discredited level of inflation. I remind the currently or recently participating in post-18 education. noble Lord of the Treasury Select Committee report The panel will publish its report at an interim stage published this month which states: before the Government conclude the overall review in “The Committee sees no justification for using RPI to calculate early 2019. student loan interest rates. RPI is no longer a National Statistic The UK is truly a world-leading destination for and has been widely discredited. In its Autumn Budget the study and research. Record numbers of young people, Government acknowledged that the use of RPI was unfair for including from disadvantaged backgrounds, are entering business rates, and the Committee is unconvinced by the case put forward for its use”, university. But we recognise concerns and that we must look at how we can go further to provide choice, by the then Minister. The committee goes on: open up access, and deliver value for money for students “The Government should abandon the use of RPI in favour of and taxpayers to ensure that the system as a whole is CPI to calculate student loan interest rates”. delivering the best possible outcomes for young people I notice that the review is not looking at value for and the economy, supported by a fair and sustainable money for students. I would say to the noble Lord that funding system. That is why we are carrying out this what I find difficult about the RPI rate is that it is review. I commend this Statement to the House”. applied to students’ loans from the moment they reach That concludes the Statement. university. That really needs to be looked at. On the question of student loans in particular, will 7.19 pm the noble Lord remind the House what percentage of Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I graduates are expected to repay their loans in full and thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and I what percentage of the loan is likely to be repaid? Will remind the House of my wife’s role as a consultant to he also say what the Department for Education wrote the Education and Training Foundation. I should like off in respect of student loans in the last financial first to ask the Minister about the status of the advisory year, and for how much below its value has the loan panel. Can he assure me that it is going to be allowed book been sold so far? Will he also say what sum it is to work without ministerial interference and direction? now estimated will have to be finally written off at the I would not ask him this except for the statements end of the 30-year term? Will he also confirm that, made by the Secretary of State at the weekend which due to the quirks of accountancy rules, the annual seemed to set out most of the conclusions he expects write-offs are missing from the deficit figures, but that the advisory panel to reach. On that, I should raise while the value of the loan book is not netted off one particular issue that has struck me, which is that against the national debt, any cash for which it is sold of charging lower fees for degree subjects with lower is netted off? In fact, does he agree with the Treasury salary outcomes and the suggestion that it would Select Committee, which described student loan mean that the fees for, say, arts courses would be lower accounting as being a “fiscal illusion”? Up to £7 billion than those for science and engineering courses. I cannot of annual debt write-offs has simply gone missing, think of a more stupid outcome than that. In particular allowing the Government to artificially reduce the for poorer students, it would act as a huge disincentive deficit by saddling young people with the debt. I very to take up the very subjects that this country excels at. much hope that the advisory panel will be able to look I hope that the Minister will tell me that that was just a at that. whim of the Secretary of State and that the advisory panel will be given a clear indication that it is to come Oh so wearyingly we hear more about a market in to its own conclusions on the issues it has been set. higher education—despite the fact that the Government have said that we have the most outstanding higher I turn to the terms of reference. The Statement education system in the world. I shall make one further rather glosses over the important point in the terms of comment in relation to the report of the Treasury reference that the review cannot make recommendations Select Committee. It notes: on tax and must follow the Government’s fiscal policies. Does that mean that the review cannot address anything “Without adequate information, an efficiently functioning market will struggle to develop. Prospective students face the that would increase spending—and, if that is the case, unenviable task of determining whether to participate in higher does it mean that it cannot consider recommending education based on increasing quantities of university marketing the restoration of maintenance grants, reducing the material coupled with a lack of proven, reliable metrics for current interest rates or increasing the teaching grant? judging the quality of courses”. The Minister has made much of the T qualifications If the Government are determined to go down the and the extension of education, but I remind him that market route, they will have to ensure, first, that his party’s manifesto promised a review of tertiary prospective students have information that they can education across the board. Despite that, hundreds of use effectively. Secondly, they must ensure that the thousands of 16 to 18 year-olds studying in FE colleges education sector does not repeat the problem of the do not form part of the review. Perhaps he could say health sector, which is to introduce a quasi market and why that is. then attempt to micromanage it through the regulator. In closing, the noble Lord set out the core principles My great fear about the Office for Students is that, under which the advisory panel and Ministers will while ostensibly it is there to encourage a market, in work and said in particular that the review would look reality it is there to micromanage the sector. The at value for money for graduates and taxpayers. On outcome of that will be an unholy muddle and a that, will the review look at the current rate of interest higher education sector that is less than it ought to be. 79 Post-18 Education and Funding[LORDS] Post-18 Education and Funding 80

Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, we on these Benches raised the issue that has been much in the press in welcome this review. Without seeking to prejudge its recent days about the difference between arts courses outcome and indeed the Government’s response, we and engineering courses, and perhaps some comments need a post-18 education system with a guarantee that that might have come from Ministers. I must admit it is accessible to all. I am particularly delighted that that I have not read any of those comments. Those the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich, is to be a issues are in scope. I have no doubt that the independent member of the panel. She will bring a tremendous review panel will look at the different courses between, amount of wisdom and understanding to the question say, humanities and engineering or science subjects as of vocational education. part of the review. I am not willing to be drawn on any As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, one term that other comments about that. I am sure that it will come is not mentioned in the Statement is “interest”—but I up with some conclusions on that. am sure that every single young person racking up a Equally, both noble Lords raised maintenance loans. huge debt on their student loan will wonder why they It is the case that some students are finding it quite are paying way above the market rate. The word tough to live in expensive areas, including London. I “maintenance” appears only once, as does the word know that maintenance loans are within scope. It will “grants”—and unfortunately they do not appear be up to the panel to decide whether they wish to look consecutively. Maintenance grants must be an essential at that, but I clarify that it is within scope. recommendation of the panel. I wonder if the Minister On the review of tertiary education, I reassure could comment on that. noble Lords that we are looking at a complete review The review does not seem to do anything to improve of post 18 education. That includes those who are opportunities and financial support for people who post-18 in further, higher and technical education; it is enter higher education at a later stage in life. Will catch-all post-18. Again, it is one of the issues that the equalising funding support for older students be part panel will look at. of the review? I go back to the point made by the The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about interest noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on the subject of variable rates. Again, interest rates have been much in the press degree course costs dependent on the subject being and have been much discussed. They will indeed be in studied. What will that do to help boost application scope. I am not willing to comment on the difference rates for courses that are more expensive to deliver and between RPI and CPI. I note what the noble Lord which universities might expect to charge more for, said, but that is again something for the panel to such as medicine and engineering, in which it is incredibly look at. important that we continue to train enough people? Both noble Lords are correct that we are still looking Will this not exacerbate skills shortages in those areas to be sure that students have value for money. They and mean that people from disadvantaged backgrounds must be sure that, for their choice of course, they go in in particular are deterred from studying these subjects? with a transparent view as to what they will be paying, Finally, we have talked about universities going the course that they are doing and the outcomes that down the market route. I fear that they have already will come from it. Obviously, the advice to them is very gone down it with a vengeance. UK higher education important. allows publicly funded universities to both validate There were a number of questions from noble and franchise degrees, and they can subcontract the Lord, Lord Hunt, on loan repayments. I will need to teaching of their students to private providers. Students write to him with the detail on that, but he will know are registered with the university and subcontracted that the RAB charge, as we might call it, has gone up colleges provide the teaching. We see tiny companies to 45%. That is the write-off rate. There is always a with no track record getting subcontracted teaching. subsidy,which has gone up to 45% because the thresholds They can be part of a larger group of firms that are were raised recently, as he knows—up to £25,000 and owned by equity companies which are registered in at the higher level up to £45,000. Along with a number places like Jersey and Luxembourg. I hope that the review of questions that he has raised, I will write to him with might be permitted to look at some of the excesses in those specific details. current practices. However,overall I welcome the review. Finally, on the comments made about the market, one thing that is certain is that we absolutely believe Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, I thank the that the basics behind the tuition fee system should noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Storey, for their remain in place. It is right that there should be a input and their questions, which I will attempt to marketplace, that students should be in the lead and answer. The first point raised by the noble Lord, Lord that they should be able to choose the right universities Hunt, was about the panel. First, I echo what was said and courses. What we are leading on to, which is by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, about the appointment linked to the TEF, is to have assessments of courses, of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. I am sure that she not just universities. That was always the intention will be a valuable addition to the panel. I can reassure behind the base laid during the passage of the Higher the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that it is absolutely clear Education and Research Act. I hope that I have answered that Philip Augar and his panel will be independent. It the questions from the two noble Lords. is vitally important that it can carry out its work without interference—perhaps that was the word that he used—by the Government. Again, it must be fully 7.33 pm independent. Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, why is there no Both noble Lords referred to the issue of differential mention of the anomalous position of what used to be pricing between courses. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, student nurses, who now have to take out loans, as do 81 Post-18 Education and Funding[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Post-18 Education and Funding 82 other students, in particular having regard to the youngest person on the review? Looking down the list pressure on the health service and the difficulties that of the six members, it does not look to me as if any of it has in recruiting nurses? them are under the age of 50. Does he think it a good idea that there are no students on the review? Will he Viscount Younger of Leckie: Again, they will be in explain why there is no current student experiencing scope in terms of making sure that the support we give higher education and paying these fees on the review? to nurses, who are so important in our society, is there. Could he undertake that the Secretary of State will That is within scope and it is noted. meet members of the Youth Parliament with me to discuss their views on student fees and loans and how Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, the review had the system should be reformed, given that they have some very interesting things in it. I must give the no membership of this review? Government some credit for the best back-down I Viscount Younger of Leckie: On the noble Lord’s have ever read in any document: first question, I will not be drawn on the ages of the “Many elements of our current post-18 education system members of the panel. I think that was the gist of his work well”— question. Even if I knew the ages, I would not wish to if ever there was a way of saying some do not. I have be drawn on that. never heard of anything like it before. The section on “A system that is accessible to all” talks about those Lord Adonis: Will the Minister write and tell me the with a disadvantaged background. I draw the House’s ages? It is a material factor given that this is a review of attention to my declared interests with the British student finance. Dyslexia Association and as a chairman of Microlink. We have a situation where disabled students have Viscount Younger of Leckie: I am certainly not different provisions made at different universities doing going to commit to that. I do not feel terribly comfortable the same courses. Are the Government going to make giving out the ages of the panel. It may well be in the sure in the review that there is some way of allowing a press, but I am not prepared to do that. We have a very student to know what is effectively happening to those strong panel. disabled students, particularly those who do not qualify On his second question, which was to do with the for the disabled students’ allowance, as there is currently representation of students, he is absolutely right, but a very confused system? The Government have refused the point is that this panel will deliberately be kept to put in any outside quality control on them, saying small to make it more manageable. They will be engaging that they will all make their own way forward. Will with a complete range of stakeholders, including students there be something in the review that dictates that you and student representatives, business and many other will know the type of support you will get? areas. I hope I can reassure the noble Lord that this is Also, as the old provisions of the old system mean a wide-ranging stakeholder engagement process with that the level 1 and level 2 provision of the four-band a small and neat panel. system are now provided by the institution, how well do they function with the DSA? Will this be made Lord Adonis: Will the Secretary of State meet members available? Will all those colleges undertaking any degree of the YouthParliament with me to discuss their views tuition be brought into this system so that people can on these matters? find out what they are going to get? If you want anything that is market-driven to be effective you have Viscount Younger of Leckie: On that third question, to have knowledge of that market for those who access I am very happy to pass that on, but I do not want to it. At the moment it is confused and almost like a give any guarantees that he will agree to do so. quagmire. Unless the Government can tell us that they are addressing that in some way, they will still continue Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab): My Lords, I not to achieve. accept that the Minister will not want to prejudge the work of the panel, but he set out in the Statement one or two principles that are set down to guide the work. I Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord again do not think that this is a question that he answered in raises the issue of the DSA. I know that he has done a response to the Front-Bench questions about the huge amount of work over many years for the disabled introduction of variable fees. Will he give the House and disadvantaged sectors.I reiterate that the Government an assurance that one of the principles he will set out are very much committed to ensuring that all students for the panel is that the price of the course should not with disabilities receive the very best possible support be a determinant in a student’s choice of degree course to enable them to study alongside their fellow students or eventual career? on an equal basis. Disabled students have access to a package of support to cover additional costs that they Viscount Younger of Leckie: I take note of the may face to participate in higher education. I reassure question from the noble Baroness but, as she predicted, the noble Lord that this is in scope, but I do not want I will not be drawn on giving a commitment on that. I to prejudge the outcome of the review. I am certain the have no doubt that the panel will want to look at it, as panel will want to look at it. Beyond that, I cannot I indicated earlier. really comment because the panel is independent. Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab): My Lords, I Lord Adonis (Lab): My Lords, this is a review of the welcome the review. I have a couple of questions. The burdens being placed on students and young graduates, Minister said that there would be an interim report. so can the Minister tell us what is the age of the When is that likely to be? He gave us the final date. 83 Post-18 Education and Funding[LORDS] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 84

[LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN] at the vocational and technical routes as opposed to The Statement refers to participation to drive social the academic route. It is important that they are mobility,the teaching outcomes and excellence framework marketed and sold appropriately. I said earlier in the and, Chamber today that I was driving into town last night “the facilitation of further diversity with new providers and and heard on the radio an advertisement for shorter degrees delivered at a lower cost to students”. apprenticeships. We want to hear more of that and That is something for which I have been arguing for more promotion for these areas. quite a while. However, alongside that greater flexibility and, I hope, the use of new technology, we need to Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, there will be a wide ensure that we get the quality as well. There have been welcome for the emphasis on technical education. The some worrying developments in apprenticeships recently Minister has just referred to it, and it looms large in where we have warned about focusing not on the the Statement. Can my noble friend tell us when quantity but on ensuring the quality. T-levels are likely to become available to students? At The Statement also talks about, the conclusion of the review early next year, will there “identifying ways to help people make more effective choices be a government document that indicates not only between the different options available at and after 18”. what conclusions have been arrived at but the action I still think that the current drive in secondary schools that will be taken thereafter? is to push most young people towards university and Viscount Younger of Leckie: Yes, indeed. On the not look at the alternative vocational route. Given that second question, my noble friend will know that the schools rely on ensuring that their sixth-form colleges review will conclude in 2019. The Government have are full, what steps are the Government taking to pledged to give a speedy response to it. I cannot give ensure that they really are made aware of alternative any timescales, but “speedy” means that they will want routes? to move quickly to look carefully at what the panel has Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord asked come up with and to respond accordingly. I feel sure a number of questions. First, I am not able to give an that they will do that. interim date for the review. I made it quite clear that On T-levels and the timings for them, I will have to the full results of the review will come out early in write to my noble friend to be sure that I am accurate. 2019. Obviously, I would want to keep the House updated as to when that would be—that would of Safeguarding in the Aid Sector course come from the review panel. Statement The noble Lord also made an important point about shorter degrees. I would like to add to that 7.46 pm part-time courses. As we know, there has been a The Minister of State, Department for International fall-off in part-time courses, which is a concern and Development (Lord Bates) (Con): My Lords, with the one of the issues that the panel will definitely want to leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement address. We want to be sure that the courses are right, made earlier in the House of Commons by my right that they are at the right price and that take-up is honourable friend the Secretary of State for International much better than it has been. That is within scope. Development. The Statement is as follows: Again, beyond that, I do not want to prejudge what “With permission, I would like to update the House the panel will come up with. on my department’s response to the sexual abuse and Lord Young of Norwood Green: I stressed the exploitation perpetrated by charity workers in Haiti in importance of quality; it is not just about the price. 2011 and the measures that we are taking to improve safeguarding across the aid sector. I would like to start Viscount Younger of Leckie: I was about to come to by paying tribute to Sean O’Neill of the Times and the quality. Of course, the noble Lord is right that it is two sets of whistleblowers, those in 2011 and later, for extremely important that the quality of the courses in bringing this case to light. higher education is outstanding. He mentioned On 9 February, the Times reported that certain apprenticeships. He will know that the Institute for Oxfam staff, when in Haiti in 2011, had abused their Apprenticeships is focused solely on making sure that positions of trust and paid for sex with local women. the quality of apprenticeships is as high as it can be. These incidents happened in the aftermath of the We want to replicate that in university courses as well. devastating earthquake in 2010, which killed hundreds One of the main remits of the Office for Students is to of thousands of people and left millions more homeless monitor the quality of courses. and reliant on aid for basic needs such as food and On choices for students, I know that the noble Lord shelter. This is shocking, but it is not by itself what has has quite a lot of experience in this field. I think I am caused such concern about Oxfam’s safeguarding. It right in saying that he was instrumental in introducing was what Oxfam did next. the concept of employers going into schools and giving In chaotic and desperate situations, the very best careers advice. That is important and valuable. On safeguarding procedures and practices must be put in students being informed, it is a mix of parents being place to prevent harm, but when organisations fail to better informed and being able to talk to their children— report and follow up incidents of wrongdoing that who probably become less child-like as they move into occur, it undermines trust and sends a message that the higher education system. Schools and employers sexual exploitation and abuse is tolerated. We cannot certainly have a role. One of the things we most want prevent sexual exploitation and abuse if we do not to do—I hope it will extend into the review—is to look demonstrate zero tolerance. In such circumstances, 85 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 86 we must be able to trust organisations not only to do also be sharing details of this approach with other all they can to prevent harm but to report and follow government departments responsible for overseas up incidents of wrongdoing when they occur. development assistance spending. Although this work In this duty, Oxfam failed under the watch of is not yet complete,it is clear from the Charity Commission Barbara Stocking and Penny Lawrence. They did not reporting data, and the lack of it from some organisations, provide a full report to the Charity Commission; they that a cultural change is needed to ensure that all that did not provide a full report to their donors; they did can be done to stop sexual exploitation in the aid not provide any report to prosecuting authorities. In sector is being done. We need to take some practical my view, they misled, quite possibly deliberately, even steps now. We should not wait for the UN to take as their report concluded that their investigation could action. We must set up our own systems now. not rule out the allegation that some of the women My department and the Charity Commission will involved were actually children. They did not think hold a safeguarding summit on 5 March, where we that it was necessary to report to the police in either will meet UK international development charities, Haiti or the country of origin of those accountable. I regulators and experts to confront safeguarding failures believe that their motivation appears to be just the and agree practical measures, such as an aid worker protection of the organisation’s reputation. They put accreditation scheme that we in the UK can use. Later that before those they were there to help and protect—a in the year, we will take this programme of work to a complete betrayal of trust. It was a betrayal, too, of wide-ranging global safeguarding conference to drive those who sent them—the British people—and a betrayal action across the whole international aid sector. I am of all those Oxfam staff and volunteers who put the pleased to say that the US, Canada, the Netherlands people they serve first. and others have already agreed to support our goal of Last week, I met Mark Goldring, chief executive of improved safeguarding standards across the sector. Oxfam, and Caroline Thomson, Oxfam’s chair of The UK is not waiting for others to act; we are taking trustees. I made three demands of them: that they fully a lead on this. I will also be speaking to colleagues co-operate with the Haitian authorities, handing over across government and beyond about what more we all evidence they hold; that they report staff members can do to stop exploitation and abuse in the UN and involved in this incident to their respective national the broader multilateral system. Our message to all Governments; and that they make clear how they will parts of the UN is clear: you can either get your house handle any forthcoming allegations around safeguarding, in order or you can prepare to carry on your good historic or live. I stressed that, for me, holding to work without our money. account those who made the decision not to report but I welcome the UN’s announcement on 14 February to let those potentially guilty of criminal activity slip that the UN does not and will not claim immunity for away was a necessity in winning back confidence in sexual abuse cases. This sends a clear signal that the Oxfam. As a result of those discussions, Oxfam has UN is not a soft target, but we must hold the UN to agreed to withdraw from bidding for any new UK account for this. Further actions we have taken in the government funding until DfID is satisfied that it can last week include the creation of a new safeguarding meet the high safeguarding standards we expect of our unit. We have also promoted our whistleblowing and partners. I will take a decision on current programming reporting phone line, to encourage anyone with after 26 February, as I will then have further information information on safeguarding issues to contact us. We which will help me decide if I need to adjust how that have appointed Sheila Drew Smith, a recent member is being delivered. of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, who Given the concerns about the wider sector that this has agreed to bring her expertise and her challenge to case has raised, I have also written to every UK support my department’s ambition on safeguarding. charity working overseas that receives UK aid—192 She will report directly to me. organisations—insisting that they spell out the steps I have asked to meet leaders of the audit profession they are taking to ensure that their safeguarding policies to discuss what more can be done to provide independent are fully in place and confirm that they have referred assurance over safeguarding to the organisations that all concerns they have about specific cases and individuals DfID partners with globally. I have held my own to the relevant authorities, including prosecuting department to the same scrutiny that I am demanding authorities. I have set a deadline of 26 February for all of others. I have asked the department to go through UK charities working overseas to give us the assurances our centrally held HR systems and our fraud and that we have asked for and to raise any concerns with whistleblowing records as far back as they exist. I am relevant authorities. Weare also undertaking, in parallel, assured that there are no centrally recorded cases that a similar exercise with all non-UK charity partners, were dealt with incorrectly. Separately, we are reviewing 393 organisations in total, and with all our suppliers, any locally reported allegations of sexual misconduct including those in the private sector—more than involving DfID staff. To date, our review of staff cases 500 organisations—to make our standards clear and has looked at 75% of our teams across DfID. It will remind them of their obligations. We are going to do complete within a fortnight. Our investigations are the same with our multilateral partners too. still ongoing and if, during this process, we discover The UK Government reserve the right to take any further historic or current cases, I will report on whatever decisions about future funding to Oxfam, our handling of these to Parliament. and any other organisation, that we deem necessary. DfID,other government departments and the National We have been very clear that we will not work with any Crime Agency work closely together when serious organisation that does not live up to the high standards allegations of potentially criminal activity in partner on safeguarding and protection that we require. I will organisations are brought to our attention, and we are 87 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector[LORDS] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 88

[LORD BATES] practice and culture. This appalling situation, as the strengthening this. The new strategy director at the Secretary of State pointed out, came to light only National Crime Agency will take on a lead role for because of whistleblowers. Trade unions play a the aid sector. I am calling on anyone who has any critical role in supporting workers in such circumstances. concerns about abuse or exploitation in the aid sector Will the Minister commit to ensuring that trade to come forward and report these to our counterfraud unions representing workers in this sector are also and whistleblowing team. Details are on the DfID fully represented at the summit? In the evidence website and all communications will be treated in given this morning to the International Development complete confidence. Later today I will have further Committee, the point was made that short-term contracts meetings, including with the Defence Secretary regarding often prevent people speaking out. I welcome the peacekeeping troops and with the Secretary of State at commitment by Oxfam’s chair of trustees that DCMS regarding the charity sector. employment procedures will also be reviewed and My absolute priority is to keep the world’s poorest reported to Oxfam’s governing council in March. But and most vulnerable people safe from harm. It is utterly can we be assured that that sort of review looking at despicable that sexual exploitation and abuse continue those sorts of issues will also be undertaken by other to exist in the aid sector. The recent reports should be NGOs and charities so that we look across the board a wake-up call to all of us. Now is the time for us to and not just at Oxfam? act, but as we do so we should note the good people I note that Oxfam has agreed to withdraw from working across the world in this sector, saving lives, bidding for any new UK government funding, often by endangering their own, and all those, from “until DfID is satisfied that they can meet the high standards we fundraisers to trustees, who make that work possible expect from our partners”, across the entire aid sector. In the last week alone, UK but can the Minister clarify what the criteria for restoring aid and aid workers have helped vaccinate around funding will be? What exactly does the Secretary of 850,000 children against polio. We should also recognise State mean by “high standards”? I hope that, apart that that work can be done only with the support of from all the policies and procedures, these will include the British people. I commend this Statement to the a clear commitment to ensure proper consultation House”. with workers’ representatives. Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, we are all shocked 7.56 pm that aid workers from a respected organisation such as Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I thank Oxfam could abuse the trust of vulnerable people in the noble Lord for repeating that Statement and of Haiti, whose lives had been shattered by the earthquake course I welcome him back to the Dispatch Box. I am in 2010. Action must be taken to ensure that such very pleased to see him there. I very much welcome the abuse at high levels of a world-renowned charity cannot Secretary of State’s Statement and her swift and robust be repeated, so I welcome the Secretary of State’s action in dealing with this appalling situation of vulnerable Statement. women and girls being exploited by men with power However, having read the Statement in full, I am acting with impunity in an appalling culture of silence. disappointed that it talks only about strengthening We must not, however, allow the actions of a few to safeguards going forward. What we really need is a undermine the efforts of the vast majority of people wide and far-reaching inquiry into the scale of historic who carry out their work with integrity and commitment abuse and that which exists in the sector today. All the in often dangerous and difficult circumstances. Nor indications are that this is but the tip of the iceberg must we let this damage the commitment of the British and, to deal comprehensively with the situation, we people, who daily support charities such as Oxfam to must have all the facts. In 1999 the national crime save lives in crises and tackle the root causes of injustice. agency said that the charity sector was susceptible to Of course, most importantly, we must not let this stop being targeted by paedophile rings. We must know if us helping those who need our help most. that is the case. Reports that men in positions of I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has power have acted with impunity in exercising control written to taxpayer-funded charities to ask for written over young women are rife in the sector. There are assurances that they have safeguarding in place. While allegations of abuse in the awarding of short-term I note that she will be sharing this approach with other contracts by those in permanent senior positions. What government departments, can the Minister give us a we really need is an independent inquiry into the categorical assurance that all departments with ODA global aid sector—failing that, at least into the UK aid spend will adopt the same processes and that they too sector—that will leave no stone unturned. Unless we will report to Parliament on the outcome of those know what has gone on in the past and hold people efforts? I also welcome her swift commitment to a accountable, we cannot hope to go forward with safeguarding summit on 5 March. Out of that summit confidence. must now come real commitment to reform: tightening This is also an issue about governance. Oxfam has international criminal regulation, establishing a global been found wanting on many levels, and the whole passport or register for humanitarian workers, and sorry saga has highlighted the failure of good governance setting up an independent regulator or centre of excellence. by those to whom it answers—the Charity Commission I was pleased to note in the Statement that our global and DfID. Both accepted without question the charity’s partners have been invited to that summit in preparation version of events and did not probe further into what for a perhaps even bigger one later in the year. “sexual misconduct” meant. Both failed to ask the However, reform must not be just about policies obvious question of whether minors, of either sex, and procedures. It must also be about a change in were involved. Both have questions to answer and 89 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 90 improvements to make if they are to avoid future the noble Lord is absolutely right. I totally accept his failures. Any inquiry must encompass their role in the urging in that area. We have received his advice on that Haiti cover-up. point and it will be responded to. I welcome that the UK intends to work closely with The noble Lord raised a very good point about the UN. This is a global issue which the global aid trade unions. As to whether the invitation would more community must address collectively, so the proposal probably be to the 5 March event, which is aimed for a sort of passport for workers in the UK aid sector particularly at UK charities and regulators, or whether is welcome. Will there be government support for a it is more about how we engage them perhaps in the global aid worker accreditation scheme? Inevitably, international conference later in the year, I will come unless answers to these questions are forthcoming, back to him. But he is absolutely right to say that trade attacks against the 0.7% of GNI that is devoted to unions have a very important role to play in ensuring overseas aid will increase. But this would not only be that people in employment, particularly on short-term a kick in the face of the vast majority of aid contracts, understand what their rights are and can workers, who work tirelessly to alleviate extreme have representation. I will certainly take that back. poverty, but jeopardise some of the really worthwhile The noble Lord asked what requirements would be programmes bringing health, education and sanitation made of Oxfam before it would be considered for solutions to those in desperate need. We must not government funding. It is clear that it will have to fully throw the baby out with the bathwater, so I ask the co-operate with the Haitian authorities by handing Minister about the Secretary of State’s decision to over all the evidence it holds, that it reports staff bar Oxfam from receiving new government funding. members involved in this incident to their respective Last year it received £31.7 million from DfID. What national Governments, and that it makes clear how it assessment have the Government made of the impact will handle forthcoming allegations around safeguarding, on programmes serving the poor and destitute if support historic or live. That is the basis on which decisions is withheld this year? What are they planning do to will be made and the Secretary of State said that she mitigate the extra hardship this will inflict on aid will take those decisions next week, when she has recipients? received responses to those points. I will mention just one other thing, which has I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, who disturbed me throughout the media coverage over the said the Statement was about going forward, that we past few weeks, and that is the use of the term have taken steps. I point out that, in terms of DfID, we “beneficiaries”. Will DfID consider using a term other have gone through our centrally held HR systems and than beneficiaries, which sounds as though people are our fraud and whistleblowing records as far back as in receipt of an inheritance rather than baby milk? they exist, to check that no cases have escaped the Perhaps “aid recipients” would better describe their scrutiny that they should have. vulnerable state. It is no more of a mouthful than beneficiaries: both have five syllables. Baroness Sheehan: I was really asking for an independent inquiry. This will have a huge impact on Lord Bates: I am very grateful for the comments the public mood about giving to charities and we have and the general support of the noble Baroness, Lady to show to the public that it is not just us investigating Sheehan, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for the ourselves but that an independent eye has been cast Statement and the action proposed. The noble Lord, over everything. Lord Collins, is absolutely right that we have to call for a significant culture change. It is about an abuse of Lord Bates: Yes, that point is well worth making. It power by men often in positions of authority, the likes is one reason why we have brought in independent of which we have seen in other settings around the expertise from outside to strengthen our ability to world, and it needs to be addressed in robust and review. I would also point out for the record that forceful ways. Oxfam itself has voluntarily agreed to withdraw, as The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about other opposed to being barred, from the position. As regards government departments. This is very important. That other government departments, the Permanent Secretary is why the Secretary of State met the Secretary of has written to all those that administer ODA, including State for Defence today and will be meeting the the Foreign Office, to drive the cross-Whitehall message Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and that there will be zero tolerance in this area, and Sport. She will also be meeting the Minister for asking them to mirror the actions we are taking at the Civil Society in the course of this because there has to Department for International Development. be a cross-government approach to ensure that we are 8.11 pm entirely consistent in seeking the changes that we wish to see. Lord Hayward (Con): In recognising the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Lord Collins of Highbury: I am concerned specifically Baroness, Lady Sheehan, in relation to work that is about the FCO, which has an increasing proportion of undertaken in particularly dangerous and difficult ODA spend: it has risen from 13% to nearly 18%. It is circumstances, I was in Iraq last week, as my noble funding organisations that we need to look at very friend knows, where I met DfID, charity and voluntary carefully. workers. They are working in incredibly dangerous and difficult circumstances. It would be a disaster for Lord Bates: That is correct. The Foreign Secretary the communities if the work being undertaken was and the Secretary of State will be meeting tomorrow deferred by even a few days or weeks. Will my noble morning to discuss these matters, among others. But friend therefore exhort all contributors, whether large 91 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector[LORDS] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 92

[LORD HAYWARD] Lord Bates: I am very grateful to the noble Lord or small, to continue to make donations to the charities and will certainly convey to the Secretary of State his to which they contribute, so that those charities can remarks about her handling of the crisis thus far. I continue to make their crucial contribution to societies, also recognise his deep experience of leadership in this whether in Iraq or around the rest of the world? field. He asked a very specific question about what we knew when. I should say that the chairman of the IDC Lord Bates: I am very happy to give that undertaking. in the other place has confirmed that the committee is My noble friend is absolutely right that British people commencing an inquiry into this, and we will be are generous to people around the world. In many co-operating fully. ways, the great tragedy of what has happened is that The Charity Commission is also going to undertake the failure to act in a transparent and timely way has an inquiry into this. The elements of who knew what and genuinely put lives at risk, because people might stop when are very important issues, but they will be addressed giving in the way that he talked about. Oxfam alone at that time. At the moment, all we would say is that, has around 10,000 people in 90 countries; it is working although DfID was informed that the investigation with DfID at present in places such as Yemen and had concluded on 5 September 2011 and that all South Sudan, delivering life-saving materials.In everything members who had been found not to have followed we do, we are going to ensure that our prime concern Oxfam’s code of conduct had left the organisation, its is for the people whom we are trying to help. We will letter states that no allegations involved beneficiaries not deal with contracts in a pre-emptive way until we or the misuse of DfID funds. That was the reason for are absolutely confident that those people who need the very strong line that the Secretary of State used in our help, whether they are called beneficiaries or aid her Statement in the other place about how DfID was recipients, are our number one concern. They must be potentially misled in this respect. Again, that will be protected at all times.That is what the charities themselves something on which there will be full disclosure and should have been thinking all the way through. transparency so we understand what happened and when. We will be co-operating with the Charity Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, Commission and the IDC on those inquiries. there are several references in the Lords register to my voluntary positions with charities in this sector, so I Lord Patten (Con): My Lords, I have a family should reference that before asking my question. I will interest to declare inasmuch as my daughter has worked say, though, that I would like the Minister to convey to for the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development for the Secretary of State that the way in which she has the past 10 years. That is not a material interest, but it handled this issue in the last 10 days has been impressive. is one I should properly declare. Does my noble friend To take a constant position through these days that share my view that there may be very inadequate has put the interests of the children first and not used ethical training in many of our charities? Ethical the issue as a political football or been defensive in any training is not a central part of their DNA, particularly way about the role of the department or other agencies, in the larger and more bureaucratic charities. I entirely has been the right approach. I hope that she will agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, continue to do that. that cultural change is desperately needed, particularly The Statement today has been comprehensive and in some of our larger charities. Bringing about cultural impressive on where we are right now. However, it change takes a very long time. It takes years and it contains one omission: what did DfID know in 2011? needs ethical training of the highest level. That is There is a reference in the early part of the Statement something which many charities need to turn their to the lack of reporting in full to the Charity Commission attention to urgently. and to the authorities, but there is no reference to any reporting to DfID. What, if anything, was done by Lord Bates: My noble friend is absolutely right on Ministers or officials with any such report? It is important this. There is a core problem which we have seen across that we have some clarity on that. different organisations. We have had to wrestle with Secondly, it is important to be clear that when these issues in recent years: the fear of asking the traffickers, and in some cases the Mafia, move difficult probing questions when they are needed or into emergency zones in the absence of effective the failure to be transparent about what has happened. government—as with the earthquakes in Haiti or Nepal, Organisations are doing that—one does not like to say or the typhoon in the Philippines, when hundreds of “for understandable reasons”—because they want to young children were targeted by traffickers to be taken protect the reputation of the organisation. If anyone immediately to brothels and slave labour elsewhere in wants to know whether that works, ask Oxfam today the world—it is the large NGOs that are usually first when its reputation has been so tarnished and damaged on the spot to protect those children. In some cases, as by the failure to take that kind of prompt action and on the Nepalese-Chinese border after the earthquake to ask the most difficult and searching questions in there, they have saved hundreds of children from these areas at the right time. moving into some form of slavery or perhaps worse. So it is important to register that, while this is essential The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, this is a very work to expose the problems that have been going on, painful affair for all of us who have been concerned which demands a zero-tolerance approach, we should with aid over many years. I have not worked directly also reinforce our commitment to ensure that children with Oxfam, but I have worked alongside it and on will be protected by some of these NGOs, in the this occasion I want to pay tribute to what the noble absence of effective government, in some of the world’s Lord, Lord Judd, achieved over many years in bringing worst disaster zones. standards up over that period. We must not forget 93 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector[20 FEBRUARY 2018] Safeguarding in the Aid Sector 94 what has already been done. The Secretary of State is way or another and do even more damage than it new and it is quite right that she should send a would have done at the time. powerful message to the aid agencies, especially those I shall conclude by making a couple of observations. in receipt of public funds. It is obviously a shocking The current leadership, including Mark Goldring and affair. However,the Minister has considerable experience the new chairman who took office only last year, were and knows that there are limits on outrage that can be nowhere near the situation when it occurred; they have expressed. Does he not think that collectively the been dealing with a situation that they inherited. A lot Government and the statutory agencies have gone of very hard work has been going on in seeing how over the top on this? It is not happening on the scale proper standards, regulation and accountability can suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. As be put in place. If that is not sufficient, it is quite right other noble Lords have said, the danger is that it is that the Government should challenge it, and I am affecting the work that is going on all the time all over sure that if they work together it can be tackled. the world. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, made this However,it is interesting to note that the highly esteemed point, and Andrew Mitchell said it, as did Anna Tufts University in the United States, which has done Soubry. The Secretary of State seems to understand an inquiry into this problem, has said that during its this, but only in the last sentence of the Statement. inquiry it became convinced that the best regulations now in place were those of Oxfam. There is therefore a Lord Bates: We need to communicate that, but the certain paradox in the situation. noble Earl will recognise that we have had many I thank the Minister for the understanding way in debates on these things and we are almost always on which he has handled this Statement. It is quite right exactly the same page. The message needs to go out that the organisation has to look to its governance and that there is zero tolerance on this. We need to come its transparency.It also has to face up to its responsibility down very hard to change the culture within the aid to those countless volunteers; the saddest part of the sector. That was one of the reasons why the previous whole story is what these wicked people in Haiti did to Secretary of State took such a strong approach on the their very own colleagues and the work that they were allegations against UN peacekeepers and was at the trying to do. I would like a reassurance from the forefront of driving that up the agenda, to the extent Minister that in all that the Government are doing, that it was at the UN General Assembly and the and I totally understand that the Government have to Secretary-General has taken action on it because it be very firm in the public interest, their objective is to goes to the heart of the problem. People who are there enable Oxfam to be in a convincing position to continue have a duty to protect, not to exploit. As in every type the work that started in 1942—it has been in the front of organisation and institution that faces allegations line of so many situations, such as in Kampuchea, of this type, the very few people who are doing this are South Africa in the bad years, Latin America and the having a devastating effect on the 99% of people who Middle East—and to face the public and speak with are carrying out that work selflessly and, as my noble authority and morality again. friend said earlier, putting their lives at risk to help others, which is in the great tradition. It is in their Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): I thank the noble interests and for them that we ought to be so ruthless Lord for his significant contribution. If he has a in rooting it out. question, may we please have it? There are other people who still wish to ask questions. Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I must declare an interest as from 1985 to 1991 I was director of Oxfam. Lord Bates: I thank the noble Lord. I realise that I was a long-standing supporter of Oxfam before that what is happening to the organisation to which he has and I remain a firm supporter of Oxfam. Last weekend, given so much of his life must be breaking his heart, I was in my local shop in Cockermouth talking with and that he feels passionately about it. I think his the volunteers, who have obviously been affected by words, which he has said in forthright terms on the this story. For all of us involved in that work over the record, will speak more to the organisation that he years—right back to 1942 in the middle of the war, cares for than anything that I can add, and I thank when Oxfam was founded to try to get relief to the him for that. Greeks under German occupation—this has been a Lord Sheikh (Con): My Lords, I note that letters terrible nightmare. What happened in Haiti was wrong have been sent to charities which have received UK and despicable. It was a complete contradiction of the aid. I am a patron and supporter of a charity which is purpose of Oxfam in its exploitation of individuals, undertaking work in 12 countries. I had a long meeting who will remain harmed. I am very glad that the with the trustees yesterday, and we decided to tighten organisation has not just issued an email but been to and toughen our safeguards. My point is: could charities see the Government to talk to them about how genuinely which have not received such aid be written to to ask sorry it is. them to tighten up? I am deeply concerned about what We must remember certain points. First, the can go on, and if they are not UK-aided there are Government have a responsibility for public funds, possible concerns and problems. and that must be recognised by everyone. Secondly, it is terribly important to recognise that charities, not Lord Bates: That is a really good idea and I am only Oxfam but right across the field, must be accountable, happy to take it away and think about it. It may be and, as the Minister has said, being accountable involves something for the Charity Commission to take leadership transparency, complete integrity and openness. Anyway, on, but if there is anything we can do to support and it is stupid to do anything else because, as we have strengthen safeguarding, particularly for charities working seen, almost inevitably it will become known in one overseas, we will want to consider it. 95 Safeguarding in the Aid Sector [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 96

Lord Sheikh: Would my noble friend consider taking Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD): My further action? Lords, I declare an interest as a co-president of Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Lord Bates: As I said, I am happy to take back that Disarmament. I thank all noble Lords who will contribute suggestion about what more could be done, but the their considerable expertise this evening. Many noble very fact that my noble friend as a trustee is now Lords taking part in this debate will have spoken in asking those searching questions of his organisation, the debate in 2013 that the noble Lord, Lord although it is not in receipt of government funding, Ramsbotham, introduced, which was really the last bodes well for the approach which is being taken more substantial debate that we had on the issue generally. generally to improve safeguarding across the sector. What has changed since 2013? Certainly not my Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, the Minister views. I still see nuclear weapons as an immense danger said that difficult, probing questions need to be addressed. to the future of the planet. But the nuclear landscape Is he aware that that there are not shy of 80 Metropolitan has changed significantly,and there is a growing consensus Police officers serving with overseas responsibilities? that luck is running out—because we have been lucky That does not include those seconded to the International that there has been no catastrophic accident, and no Court of Justice investigating purported international accidental launch. In the words of former US energy crimes. Would he consider their being marshalled to secretary Ernest Moniz, who is now the CEO of the make further in-depth investigation of the horrors Nuclear Threat Initiative, the, that are before him and reporting back to the Government, “margin for error in avoiding disaster is getting thinner because of who can then address them with host nations? the introduction of new, smaller weapons, the broadening of circumstances in which their use is being contemplated, and a Lord Bates: I am very happy, as I set out, that we lack of high-level communications between major nuclear weapons are in contact through the National Crime Agency, powers”. which has a dedicated director looking into the aid sector more generally. One of our arguments all the He said that the chance of nuclear use was, way through has been that the lawenforcement authorities “higher than it’s been since the Cuban missile crisis”. for those alleged to be guilty of wrongdoing should be His words are, rightly, chilling. informed, whether they are in Haiti or other countries. It is absolutely right that the authorities should be That increased threat was one of the factors that informed and involved as soon as matters come to led to the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, light. which is about to become international law. It was voted for by 122 countries, with one against, and some Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con): I remind the House abstentions—of course, all nuclear weapon states that this is not the first time that large charities have abstained. The treaty, widely known as the ban treaty, brought the sector into disrepute. It was only a short will become international law when 50 states have time ago, your Lordships will recall, that Olive Cooke signed and ratified it. The ban treaty prohibits states parties threw herself off a bridge in Bristol because she was from developing, testing, producing, manufacturing, being pursued by large charities. At the time, the then otherwise acquiring, possessing, stockpiling, transferring, Prime Minister asked me, the noble Baroness, Lady using or threatening to use nuclear weapons, so it is Pitkeathley, and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of pretty comprehensive. The International Campaign to Saltaire, to form a short, sharp committee to investigate Abolish Nuclear Weapons, known as ICAN, won the what had happened and produce our results, which led Nobel Peace Prize last year for its work on the ban to the formation of the Fundraising Regulator chaired treaty. by the noble Lord, Lord Grade of Yarmouth. We The treaty results from the frustration of the vast managed to do that in three months, unlike a long majority of countries of the world with the few nuclear investigation. Does my noble friend agree that it is the weapon states, which have completely failed to honour trustees’ responsibility? The trustees need to know Article 6 of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Noble what is going on and the trustees need to be held Lords will know that Article 6 requires that nuclear accountable for the actions taking place in their charities. weapons states make meaningful steps towards nuclear Lord Bates: The trustees’ responsibilities are onerous, disarmament. In return, other countries agreed not to detailed and should be taken very seriously. I would develop nuclear weapons. It is 50 years since that expand further on that, but I am conscious that the agreement was signed and, although there have been time limit has been reached and will therefore save my steps to limit the number of nuclear weapons, there further comments in writing to my noble friend. has not been the disarmament envisaged by Article 6. In this very House, 50 years ago, Lord Chalfont, the Nuclear Weapons then Minister, said that, Question for Short Debate “we regard the Non-Proliferation Treaty as an essential first step in achieving the ending of the nuclear arms race and making 8.33 pm progress towards general and complete disarmament”.—[Official Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Report, 18/6/1968; col. 514.] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their So, 50 years on, my first question to the Minister is assessment of the outcome of the United Nations whether multilateral nuclear disarmament is still a UK Conference to Negotiate a Legally Binding Instrument Government aspiration. It seems to me that our to Prohibit Nuclear Weapons, Leading to Their Governments always say that it is an aspiration, but Total Elimination. then always say that “now is not the time”. 97 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 98

An example of this would be when the UN convened it—and the resumption of the NPT review cycle, with the open-ended working group to try and kick-start a preparatory committee this May hopefully leading the process, stuck ever since 1996, of the UN Conference to a reinvigorated NPT. on Disarmament. The UK boycotted that opportunity— I ask that the UK should play a constructive part in but why? I asked that question in March 2016, and this the forthcoming UN high-level conference on nuclear is the reply: disarmament. This conference could make all the “The UK is not attending the Open Ended Working Group … difference. It could set the scene for immediate steps in on nuclear disarmament in Geneva …The Government believes changing policy, such as no first use and de-alerting, that productive results can only be ensured through a consensus-based before moving the agenda on to longer-term issues of approach that takes into account the wider global security a phased programme to reduce nuclear stockpiles. environment”. Will the Minister confirm that the UK will take part in But how can consensus ever be reached when those the conference, to be held in New York in May? We with nuclear weapons will not even attend meetings to have plenty to offer. The UK has done some valuable debate the issues? work on verification; Aldermaston could be a global centre of excellence in nuclear disarmament. We also The UK boycotted the first two international owe participation to our NATO partners. Having asked conferences on the humanitarian consequences of nuclear them to oppose the ban treaty process, it is now time war. Why? Does closing our eyes to the reality of a for nuclear weapon states to provide something in nuclear war really change those realities? Of course it return: a commitment that we are willing to engage does not. The president of the International Red with serious nuclear disarmament initiatives. Cross said at the conclusion of those conferences that, There is a clear choice. Although this serious subject “if a nuclear conflict happened today, there is no humanitarian is not really the time for a joke, this one does illustrate assistance capacity that could adequately respond to such a the stupidity of the situation we have got ourselves catastrophe”. into. There are two aliens, and the first one says, “The Of course, beside the appalling immediate deaths, the dominant life forms on planet Earth have developed world would face the much wider threat of a prolonged satellite-based nuclear weapons”. The second alien nuclear winter. asks, “Are they an emerging intelligence”? The first alien says, “I don’t think so; they have them aimed at Nuclear weapons are now the only weapons of themselves”. We have the nuclear weapons aimed at mass destruction that are not subject to a categorical ourselves as mankind. It is time that we made a choice ban. Chemical and biological weapons are rightly to start on the road to disarmament. It will be a long banned, but nuclear weapons, the most apocalyptic and difficult road, but we have to start talking. We WMDs, remain legally acceptable. Now the ban treaty have to attend the UN high-level conference in New fills a major gap in international law and will change York and I hope that the Minister will have a positive that. message about that for this House this evening. The treaty was adopted, in July last year, before the increased dangers posed by President Trump’s new 8.44 pm nuclear posture, which Senator Ed Markey says, Lord Patten (Con): My Lords, the disinvention of “isn’t deterrence—it’s an invitation for America’s adversaries to knowledge is just as difficult as the abolition of sin expand and diversify their nuclear arsenals too”. or crime, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of The accuracy of his quote is echoed in the Chinese Gresford—who are, happily, both speaking in this PLA Daily, which responded to the new American debate—would attest. Nuclear knowledge cannot be posture by saying that China needs more nuclear just wished away. Indeed, it gives much benefit to men warheads to deter the US threat. Just this month the and women in invaluable nuclear medical applications news is bad. Russia is reported to be deploying nuclear and in its use for the nuclear generation of clean weapons on the borders of Poland and Lithuania. The power. By comparison, the dangers presented by nuclear US Director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, said weaponry need little elaboration, save to note a that Pakistan is developing new types of nuclear weapons, fundamental point. It is manifest that, since World including short-range tactical ones, which will bring War II, their possession by some stops their use by others. more risks to the region. All of this has led atomic I say this with a little background. We in this place scientists to move the Doomsday Clock forward to rightly are enjoined not to clutter up our speeches with two minutes to midnight. The situation is extremely otiose or redundant declarations. However, in the urgent. interests of transparency, I think it would be wrong In the light of that, the UK must become a much not at least to note that in the 16 years up to 2015 more positive influence for progress, just as it did on I served as an adviser and then non-executive director climate change when we were the first country to of Lockheed Martin. In parallel, I declare my current introduce a climate change Act with mandatory targets. holding of some of the common stock of that company This example was crucial to getting the final Paris in the United States. accords. I am asking the UK Government to stop As further background, it has always been good to boycotting global efforts to even discuss this massive learn from our service men and women as well as from issue and take an active part. I am sure that other those civilians in the western nuclear defence industry noble Lords will mention some of the positive moves whom I have met who think deeply about the morality that can be built on: the Iran deal—held to be a and practicality of what they do. They have families to success despite President Trump’s attempts to sabotage lose, after all. While they may not keep the thoughts of 99 Nuclear Weapons [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 100

[LORD PATTEN] but via a treaty that does not enjoy the support of, or St Thomas Aquinas exactly by their bed every night, engage, any state actually possessing the weapon. So they do without exception, at least in my experience, this will not by itself reduce nuclear arsenals. seem to have the concept of just war principles front The UN treaty is extremely well-meaning naivety of mind—that any war must be, like any weapon, on extremely high stilts, and it will not contribute to properly considered and undertaken for a good purpose, international safety nor to the development of practical just as this brave country took exactly that sort of international law, let alone persuade any rogue state or decision back in 1939, but also that the outcome to be terrorist organisation to come to the negotiating table aimed for is peace. That is the underlying strength of tomorrow afternoon. Only realism will do that—the our present position and our attitude towards regrettably realism that was demonstrated to me clearly in an having to have nuclear weapons. open and unchaperoned conversation with a chief In saying that, it is no virtue-signalling on behalf of petty officer in one of our Vanguard-class Trident-carrying Christianity in mentioning St Thomas Aquinas, as the boats during a visit on board. Mercifully for this poor Hindu epic Mahabharata of the pre-Christian era, sailor, the particular boomer I was on board was with its description of five brother rulers thrashing moored at the dockside of Faslane rather than being out exactly what was a just war, so clearly demonstrates. “out and under” on patrol. This chief petty officer of Trying to work out what is right and the balance many years’ experience demonstrated the process to be between protection, defence and attack is an eternal followed, with multiple verifications that might lead to and vital concern, and no more strongly than in the him using the trigger in his hand if ordered so to do. matter of nuclear deterrence and multilateral He has used it on a number of occasions during disarmament. I am hopeful that one day we will get demonstration and shake-down operations to launch going on this much more rapidly around the world, unarmed Trident test missiles on test. We talked—no but between now and then there are all sorts of difficulties one was listening; the commanding officer was not to be dealt with. there—about the reality of war, and he talked a bit As neither knowledge nor stocks of nuclear weaponry about his feelings. He was a human being like us and, can be wished away, the first task is to stabilise and like us, he had a family to hold in front of his eyes as then to stop proliferation. Declarations of hope and he discussed his duty. I asked him what he felt, and interest at the United Nations will not achieve this by very bluntly—he had a straightforward and appealing itself or by themselves. I have noticed rather few calls personality—he said, “Well, they know we have got to eliminate nuclear weapons from Russia, China, the weapon, and if we have to, we will use it. It stops India, Pakistan or indeed from Israel, let alone from them”. Just so. what can understandably and reasonably be called the 8.51 pm rogue state of North Korea, and we have certainly not heard much cheeping about this from terrorist groups Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab): My Lords, I draw such as IS or Daesh or al-Qaeda. attention to my entry in the register of interests, particularly my work with the Nuclear Threat Initiative. Proliferation risk is at a dangerously high level and I warmly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, other state players such as Iran and Saudi Arabia on securing this valuable debate. have nuclear status high on their agenda and wish list. Whether we like it or not, there is a growing consensus They are on their way, I believe. While one authority about the increased risk of nuclear weapons use, with very deep background in this area told me including by accident or miscalculation. In January, recently, “Look towards any Sunni state and you look when the hands of the Doomsday Clock moved to two at states mulling nuclear weaponry as a desirable minutes to midnight, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists possession in the longer term”, I think that, if they said: start, they will go shopping in Pakistan to get the “In 2017, world leaders failed to respond effectively to the … necessary material. Yet, more cheerily, de-escalation threats of nuclear war … making the world security situation … happily has worked, with the UK, the US and France as dangerous as it has been since World War II”. leading NATO-wide efforts post the Cold War, none Across the globe, nuclear weapons are poised to the less leaving present day Russia with a superiority become more, not less, usable because of nations’ in numbers, if not in efficiency and effectiveness, of plans for their nuclear arsenals. Earlier this month, nuclear warheads. the US released a new Nuclear Posture Review, which To continue this process of measured nuclear reflects several worrying trends: new, smaller yield disarmament is, as I know the noble Baroness recognises, nukes for “more optionality” for deterrence purposes, grinding, difficult and long-term work. It can be achieved of which a New York Times editorial said “this logic is only by the current possession, however, of the very insane”; an expanded role for nuclear weapons in weaponry that we wish to abolish in the end. That is a national security strategy; and expanded circumstances practical paradox but a real one, which is why I when nuclear weapons might be used. Unlike his support the replacement of our current fleet of deterrent- predecessor’s review, this President’s review does not carrying Vanguard boats by their Dreadnought successors mention a role for diplomacy, arms control or means in close co-operation with the US, and admire the to address the threats it generates. It does not consider efforts of France. These three countries have together the effect of proposed policies on strategic stability, declared that they will never sign or ratify this undoubtedly proliferation or the impact if other nuclear armed well-meaning but hopelessly unrealistic treaty. The states adopt similar policies—and they are doing so. UN division list, as it were, on 7 July last year when a The US is not alone in going down this path. But they division was called shows countries, with some dubious are our closest ally and, unlike Germany, we have been virtue-signalling, for sure seeking to ban nuclear weapons silent. Previously, we were encouraging. 101 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 102

In June 2015, on the “The Andrew Marr Show”, Gavin Williamson, said “remains sound”. The relevant Philip Hammond, then Secretary of State for paragraph states that we need nuclear deterrence because Defence, was asked whether he would back plans to there is, station such weapons here in the UK. He said, “We “a risk that states might use their nuclear capability to threaten us, would look at the case” for doing so. For those of us try to constrain our decision making in a crisis or sponsor nuclear who live in the Euro-Atlantic space, where over 90% of terrorism”. the world’s nuclear arms are deployed some minutes So it is clear that the reason we have nuclear weapons from use, these risks are compounded by heightened is to prevent the eight other nuclear armed states, two tensions between NATO and Russia, dangerous rhetoric of which are our allies, threatening or using their and brinkmanship from nuclear-armed states, and the nukes against us—not for some vague security concerns growing risk of cyber threats to nuclear command and or to deter proliferation, as all statements to date control systems, which we grossly underestimate. imply. We do not have nuclear weapons to deter Across Europe, there is an ongoing collapse of the proliferation. In fact, we have a positive approach to suite of arms control treaties that for decades have non-proliferation, with an unqualified negative security provided stability. There are no ideas on how to arrest assurance that the UK, that collapse and no intent to pursue alternatives. “will not use, or threaten to use, nuclear weapons against any With allegations of cheating on both sides, no one has Non-Nuclear Weapons State party to the … NPT”. any idea how to defend the INF treaty, secure the Within months of the agreement of the ban treaty extension of New START, or repair the collapse of the and the ludicrous statement in response, the North CFE regime. Now we are heading to another crisis in Korea fears were dispelled. Three United Nations the NPT review cycle. Last year, frustration over the Security Council resolutions imposing the toughest lack of advancement in the disarmament pillar of the sanctions yet on North Korea were passed, with no NPT caused the agreement of the first international division, and in January in Vancouver the Foreign treaty banning nuclear weapons. Some 122 countries Secretary claimed that, negotiated a treaty that will prohibit nuclear weapons, “the world is not being intimidated or divided by the threat from just as the international community prohibited biological North Korea ... actually … there was an unprecedented measure and chemical weapons. Who thinks that the world is of global consensus about what to do”. less safe because these weapons are banned? So, at least the Minister can spare us that DPRK However, before the treaty was even negotiated, our nonsense when she responds. Government made it clear that they would have nothing Ironically, today the biggest threat to international to do with it. Consistently over the years, the Government peace and security through proliferation comes not have declared opposition to this idea. Every ministerial from the ban treaty but from the extant threat by statement says the same—so much so that I could President Trump to the Iran deal. That is the Government’s paraphrase the Minister’sspeaking notes.The component position too, as both Boris Johnson and the Prime elements of the justification for opposition are that Minister have made clear—Boris Johnson most recently the treaty does not deliver any progress on disarmament, in Brussels in January. does not take account of the international security environment, which apparently compels the retention I am suggesting not that the UK signs up to the ban of nuclear weapons, or address the threats to international treaty or that the treaty does not have flaws—I accept peace and security posed by nuclear proliferation, and that it does—but that the reasons given for not engaging will cause divisions in the international community the international community do not stand up to any over its opposition to the DPRK’s behaviour. level of scrutiny, and nor do our repeated statements in support of our alleged commitment to global Positively, sometimes the Government repeat that disarmament. In truth, we are not even doing the they are committed to progress on global nuclear minimum that we claim we are. disarmament and tirelessly work with partners to press for key steps, including the entry into force of the As far as the entry into force of the CTBT is Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty and the concerned, only eight states matter. Theresa May has successful negotiation of a fissile material cut-off treaty. met with the Heads of State or Government of five of So it is no surprise that, in response to the treaty, the them. Can the Minister confirm that when the Prime UK, France and the US issued a joint statement in the Minister met Donald Trump, Benjamin Netanyahu, usual terms. The treaty, it said, Narendra Modi, Xi Jinping and Abdul Fattah al-Sisi, she raised the issue of entry into force of the CTBT? I “does not address the security concerns that continue to make nuclear deterrence necessary”, am happy to await a written response, as I do not expect it to be available immediately. Regarding our and, ambition for a fissile material cut-off treaty, only “cannot result in the elimination of a single nuclear weapon and Pakistan matters. Did David Cameron ever raise this will not enhance ... international peace and security”, issue when he met Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz and, in particular, it is a threat to the unity of purpose Sharif? Likewise, I will wait for a letter. essential in the face of growing threats from the DPRK’s In this environment, the challenges that we face proliferation efforts. need to be addressed by nuclear-armed states working Let us look at the elements of this position. What together in a responsible way, yet when there are exactly are the “security concerns” that make it meetings among the P5, there are no meaningful necessary for us to rely on nuclear deterrence? This is discussions about disarmament or even risk reduction. all set out in the SDSR 2015, a document that in In fact, the only issues on which the P5 seem to be in January in the other place the Defence Secretary, agreement is their disdain for the ban treaty and calls 103 Nuclear Weapons [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 104

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] table. The principal aim of the conference is to make for further disarmament, and the alleged but bogus progress on effective measures for nuclear risk reduction risks that they—the treaty and disarmament—pose to and disarmament. Membership of the NPT already global security. commits us to that, so we really must take part. If we First, we need to reduce polarisation and live up to do not, we will increasingly be seen as out of step with our existing commitments and responsibility by engaging the international community and rejecting the opportunity in—and encouraging other nuclear weapon states to for global leadership that it presents. engage in—UN discussions on disarmament in good The UK should not wait for other states to take faith. We need to focus on the NPT review conference, action: surely we should make our own decisions because if there is further failure on this issue in 2020 about something as important as this. The non-nuclear due to a lack of progress in disarmament, we may countries have shown the way by agreeing the resolution damage the future of that treaty irreparably. With last summer, and many have now signed and ratified 2020 only two years away, the UK needs to do more it. But without the participation of the nine nuclear and push others to do more to demonstrate progress countries, the threat—not just of intentional detonation, in meeting its NPT disarmament responsibilities and but of accidental detonation too—remains acute. The pledges—including, for a start, those in the 2010 NPT presence of nuclear convoys on our roads brings the action plan. latter very close to home. The treaty calls for progress to be made on a global 9 pm agreement, which would include the nuclear-armed Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I congratulate states and provide a phased and verified process for my noble friend Lady Miller on asking this very prohibiting and eliminating nuclear weapons. Verification important question. is an area where the UK has considerable expertise to I speak in a personal capacity about the greatest offer, so we should take part in discussions about how threat to mankind and the planet: nuclear war. I this can be done. Such processes have been very successful believe that there are no safe hands for these weapons in reducing the use of chemical and biological weapons, of mass destruction—not even ours. Global warming and it is essential that the global community learns is a very major threat, but the threat of any detonation from that success in relation to nuclear weapons too. of nuclear weapons is even greater. Yet, despite the Chemical and biological weapons were banned first lead the UK has shown on the issue of global warming, and then eliminated, so making them illegal was the we are not showing the same leadership on getting rid essential first step. of nuclear weapons. Of all weapons of mass destruction, Parliamentarians and civil society organisations have only nuclear weapons will kill not just one generation, called on world leaders to commit to attending the but kill and maim future generations, resulting in the conference at the highest possible level. The Organization starvation of 2 billion people, even when used on a for Security and Co-operation in Europe Parliamentary small, regional basis, as my noble friend said. It has Assembly, which includes the Parliaments of France, also been made clear by the Red Cross and the Red Russia, the UK, the USA and 52 other members, Crescent that no medical response to a nuclear detonation adopted declarations in 2016 and 2017 calling on would be anywhere near adequate. member Governments to reduce nuclear threats, adopt It should hardly be necessary to restate that it is no-first-use policies and support UN negotiations, illegal to possess such weapons, let alone use them, but including on the nuclear ban treaty and at the 2018 that is what the new UN ban treaty seeks to do. In my UN high-level conference. Even though we might be contribution, therefore, I urge the UK Government to leaving the European Union, we are being told that we demonstrate by their actions their commitment to a will still be in Europe, so there is no reason why we world free of nuclear weapons, which they frequently cannot continue to play an active role in this organisation express to Parliament and at the United Nations. and to support its demands. Although the UK is a signatory to the 1968 nuclear Jonathan Granoff, president of the Global Security non-proliferation treaty, very little progress has been Institute and UN representative for the World Summit made for five decades on the incremental reduction of of Nobel Peace Laureates, said recently: nuclear weapons to which the treaty commits us. It is “Nine nations continue to hold the world at risk of nuclear time we did something about that. Indeed, it seems annihilation.Although120non-nuclearweaponsstateshavenegotiated that weapons are proliferating rather than reducing. It a treaty to ban the weapons, the states with the weapons remain saddens me, therefore, that the UK Government refused deadlocked in inertia. It is time for leaders to come together … to to sign the new Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear discuss measures to reduce nuclear threats”. Weapons—negotiated by the UN last July—and still So will our Prime Minister attend? Frankly, I would seem not to have made up their mind as to whether not trust the Foreign Secretary to make a positive they will attend the UN high-level conference on contribution, but the Prime Minister might. If not nuclear disarmament in May. If not this way, which now, when? way? While millions starve, over $100 billion per year is The new ban treaty lays out a process leading to spent globally on nuclear weapons, including many multilateral disarmament. The conference to discuss millions of pounds by the UK. Personally, I believe urgent next steps will be held in a climate of increasing that this is a terrible waste because I do not believe possibility of a nuclear exchange between North Korea that the deterrence principle makes us any safer. On and the United States, or India and Pakistan, or the contrary, possession of these weapons makes us a Russia and NATO. There is no better time for world potential target, as it clearly does for the United leaders to come together to take nuclear war off the States. Certainly the people of Scotland think so, 105 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 106 which is why they are overwhelmingly against the The truth is that these weapons of mass destruction location of these weapons on their soil. The money are also weapons of mass deception. They provide the could be better spent to create jobs, support renewable illusion of security while actually making the world energy, protect the climate and clean air, maintain our less secure than ever. North Korea now joins the conventional defence forces and implement the sustainable nuclear club. Who will be next, and do we really feel development goals. safe with Donald Trump’s finger upon the button? The ban treaty also has something important to say Will we ever be told the truth about their cost, their about the ongoing humanitarian legacy of past nuclear unusability,their increasing detectability,their vulnerability weapons use and testing, and obliges states to provide to cyberattack, and the near misses and accidents that medical rehabilitation and socioeconomic assistance have happened over the years? The fact is that there to those affected by nuclear weapons and to make are military people today who acknowledge their affected environments clean and safe again. The UK redundancy in the face of the security threats and has nuclear test veterans, so I ask the Minister: what military needs of a much changed world—or simply are the UK Government doing for them and what that, if we do have all these billions to spend on contribution are they making to assist victims in other something we claim we will never use, how about a few parts of the world? Taking the first steps to engage more hospitals instead? with the ban treaty by attending the conference is not The world needs to find another way and to do this only compatible with our membership of NATO, the the world needs to work together. Obviously, nuclear NPT and the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty, disarmament cannot be left just to nuclear states, but it is a vital step towards fulfilling our legal obligations we do not join in the conversation. The impact of in relation to nuclear disarmament. nuclear weapons—their threat, their cost and, God Given the aggressive stance of the current holder of forbid, their use—affects everyone. The most hopeful the office of US President, it is time for us, one of the sign of this happening is the United Nations Treaty on United States’s oldest friends, to show that jaw-jaw is the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. It confirms that better than war-war by participating in the high-level the long-standing obligation to negotiate disarmament conference, even as an observer. Even if the other is an obligation under international law, and it is nuclear states refuse to take part, the presence of the because of the failure of nuclear armed states to make UK would prove what the Government have recently multilateral progress that the United Nations is now been claiming—that even after Brexit, the UK will rightly taking on a more substantive role. remain an outward-facing country, engaged with the The very first UN General Assembly took place in rest of the world and taking a leading role in efforts 1946 just across the green from here in Central Hall, for peace. I challenge the Government to prove their Westminster. Its first resolution focused on, claim by attending the conference. “the elimination from national armaments of atomic weapons and all other major weapons adaptable to mass destruction”. 9.08 pm As I have said, since then some progress has been made. The UK has signed the nuclear non-proliferation The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, I too treaty. Chemical and biological weapons have been thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for bringing banned, and so have cluster bombs. A few years ago this timely and important debate.One of my predecessors, we all patted ourselves on the back when we banned H A Wilson, Bishop of Chelmsford from 1929 to them. The moral arguments about nuclear weapons 1950, only ever made one speech in the House of are just as compelling, if not more so, for to use a Lords. Prelates nowadays tend to have more to say. nuclear weapon is suicide as well as genocide. This may or may not be a good development. In the coming years, this conversation is going to Shortly after the Second World War a Motion was take place on a wider stage, but our Government, before this House on the subject of nuclear weapons. along with other nuclear states, have met the call for Drawing on Christian just war theory, he rose and wider involvement with the United Nations in spoke about how the use of nuclear weapons broke disarmament with obstruction, veto and boycott. As one of the few conventions that civilisation had succeeded supporters of international law, how can this be right? in setting up to mitigate the brutalities of war. In his Even if the noble Lord, Lord Patten, is correct and memoirs he recalls how the speech was received: people like me are well intentioned and naive, that “Nobody took the slightest notice. I sat down in dead silence and I was conscious that all the noble Lords considered that I had does not stop us sitting down to talk with people made an ass of myself. Well, probably I had, but the ass’s burden about it. Yet we do not do that. no longer included an uneasy conscience”. The question before us is simple: when a majority I speak with a similar conviction and perhaps a of the world’s countries are working within the UN similar dread. I want to say simply that nuclear weapons framework to achieve non-proliferation and the ultimate are immoral, that they are a lethal extravagance, and goal of multilateral disarmament, why will we not that we must find another way. The noble Lord, Lord even engage with the process? If we are so convinced Patten, spoke about sin and that we cannot go back to that nuclear weapons are so helpful to keeping peace Eden. He is quite right—but, my dear brother, there is in the world, what have we to fear from discussion also repentance. What he said about nuclear weapons with those who think differently? Why cannot we could also be said of chemical weapons, yet we have even, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, succeeded in ridding the world of those to a certain send an observer? Or is it the case, as I suspect, that in extent. I am sure that rogue people will always do our hearts we know that we can never use these bombs rogue things, but we have made progress, and similar and therefore to own them and to perpetuate the myth progress can be made with nuclear weapons. of deterrence is a moral failure? 107 Nuclear Weapons [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 108

[THE LORD BISHOP OF CHELMSFORD] agenda—although, as my noble friend stated, there If it is right to say that cluster bombs should not be are some very worrying proposals within it—I believe manufactured or used and that they are immoral, but that there is a real risk of an inadvertent nuclear nuclear weapons could, in certain circumstances, be exchange. There are multiple ways of misreading or used, then, in my predecessor’s words, we are breaking misjudging the other side’s behaviour, or miscalculating the conventions which have, through our understanding during a crisis, especially in “hybrid” scenarios of the of just war that teaches that any force must be type beloved by President Putin. Such a possibility of proportionate, discriminate, able to achieve its aims of a nuclear exchange with Russia, starting by accident, peace and a last resort, mitigated the terrible brutalities no matter how remote it might be at present, would of war, then he is also right that we put ourselves in a have such a catastrophic result that we should work very weak position to lecture others. But our presence hard now to ensure that it can never happen. at the table is requested. There is to be a United Part of my concern is because of Putin’s so-called Nations high-level conference on disarmament in May. “escalate to de-escalate” strategy, which is bonkers. In My simple question to the Minister is: will we be there that, he would use a nuclear weapon at a sub-strategic and, if not, why not? level, based on his calculation that NATO could not Mark Twain famously said that it was not the bits credibly respond with strategic-level nuclear weapons. of the Bible that he did not understand that caused Nuclear weapons are not war-fighting weapons—I him a problem but the bits that he did. Here is a saying find the whole prospect of that horrifying. That is a of Jesus that is easy to understand: “Peace I give you, very dangerous assumption and the prospects of but not as the world gives peace”. I speak for many controlling escalation and terminating a conflict according churches and many people of faith in this nation when to any pre-planned scenario which he or NATO might I ask our Government simply to take part in the think they have are disturbingly small. All sides would process. have great difficulty in limiting, managing or ending a conflict on their preferred terms. 9.17 pm All our leaders in the nuclear weapons states must Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I first understand the value of dialogue and signalling for declare that I have been closely involved with the UK conflict avoidance and management. Diplomacy and deterrent for some decades. Indeed, for four years I investment in coherent signalling are cheap compared was directly responsible to the Prime Minister for the to the costs of conflict. Russia and NATO should safety and operational effectiveness of the UK deterrent. make sustained efforts to communicate their positions I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for to each other and be able to use well-established raising this topic, because it is important. communication channels to manage any emerging crisis. First, I make clear my view that this UN nuclear It is no good trying to cut those links; we need more ban treaty was a mistake and will if anything make us and better links. less safe because it will take our eyes off the areas I had hoped that Presidents Trump and Putin, the where we should be concentrating to try to control great “deal makers”, might reach some accord. There and to restrict nuclear weapon ownership, types of was, I thought, a golden opportunity to lessen tension devices and numbers. As has been mentioned already, by establishing lines of communication and to avoid it is virtue-signalling on a grand scale—something misunderstandings. Indeed, reinvigorating the web of that seems to have caught on in this snowflake and agreements and understandings between their two nations social media age. While it makes the people virtue- and NATO about nuclear weapons could help defuse signalling feel rather good, generally I am afraid it potential escalation in time of crisis. Additionally, the achieves nothing. STARTnegotiations could move forward again, because, Shortly after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima despite the achievements of SALT I and II and START and Nagasaki, the strategist Bernard Brodie stated: I and II, we are still in a world where Russia and the “Thus far the chief purpose of our military establishment has US each have about 7,000 nuclear warheads in their been to win wars. From now on its chief purpose must be to avert arsenals. The Russians also have 4,000 short-range them”. nuclear weapons, and the US fields about 200 in I agree with that. We spend extraordinary resources Europe. These are particularly destabilising, not least on weapons that we hope will never be used, but one in their vulnerability to terrorist attack and capture, of the ironies of nuclear deterrence is that its effectiveness since many of the Russian weapons are held in remote depends upon actual willingness to use nuclear weapons. storage areas. A major reduction in warhead holdings I do not intend to go into that deep justification, but I and systems would make the world safer. will make it absolutely clear that if any nation thinks We in the UK can be proud of having taken a lead that in the final analysis of the destruction of, for in reducing our warheads to about 200 and only one example, our capital cities, we would not use nuclear system—the bare minimum to establish a credible weapons, they are deluding themselves. One should deterrent. If the two Presidents could reach some make that clear. agreement on ways of reducing tension, it would enhance Although I disapprove of the UN treaty, I am global security. It would be a great coup, for example, strongly of the view that the leaders and nuclear if the US and Russian strategic nuclear forces went strategists of the nuclear powers need to start focusing from a condition of instant notice to fire, which I find on what is without a doubt the greatest existential quite extraordinary in the world that we are in at the threat facing all our nations and indeed the globe. moment, down to a reduced readiness to fire, as we They have taken their eyes off the ball. Even if the US have done in the UK. The issue of alert state and nuclear posture review has pushed deterrence up the readiness to fire is particularly important in the case of 109 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 110 land-based ICBMs and bombers, as they are vulnerable a social scientist at the University of Dundee, in 1999 to first strike. This means there is only a limited time found that of 2,261 children born to veterans of those to react to a suspected attack before they are destroyed—in tests 39% were born with serious medical conditions. the US and Russian case, it is about 15 minutes. In In October 1962 we saw more newsreels, of Russian times of severely strained relations between the US merchant vessels heading towards Cuba with canisters and what was then the Soviet Union in the past, on a containing nuclear missiles on their decks. Air number of occasions missile launches were almost reconnaissance showed that launch sites were being made on incorrect information—that is a chilling thought. constructed on the island of Cuba itself. President Such calming measures, combined with success in a Kennedy said in an address to the nation on television new START III, would be a substantial achievement that they had identified missiles capable of striking by these two “Marmite” leaders. We would inhabit a Washington and indeed any other city in the south-east safer world and feel bound to acknowledge, at least in of the United States, the Caribbean or Mexico. He this one area of endeavour, that perhaps they have declared: some statesmanship. “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear Reduction in number of warheads, removal of whole missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the western types of systems and better links and understanding hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United of the need for more dialogue will all make us safer States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union”. and put no country’s interest at risk. The risks, should For 13 days we held our breath. The noble Lord, Lord things accidently go wrong and we do not make some Patten, referred to concerns for family. I had been progress, are too dreadful to contemplate. Bearing in married for just over a year, I was starting out on my mind the worrying proposals in the US nuclear posture career as a lawyer; indeed, I had even stood as a review, has our Prime Minister discussed in any depth Liberal candidate in the local elections. The whole with the US President ways forward on this nuclear world that I was hoping to build seemed to be in the issue? gravest danger. Then Khrushchev ordered the merchant fleet to turn back and commanded his submarines, 9.24 pm which carried nuclear-tipped torpedoes, to return to base. So did the doctrine of deterrence prevent war? Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): My Lords, opening Yes, on this occasion, I think it probably did, but it the Munich security conference this weekend its chairman, required stable and rational leaders on both sides who Wolfgang Ischinger, formerly ambassador to the US weighed the risks, considered the consequences and and later the UK, said that he was worried. He said: took realistic decisions. Contrast that with the world “I think the global security situation is more unstable today today. than it has been at any time since the demise of the Soviet Union”. Noble Lords have talked about Iran. At Munich on Saturday, President Netanyahu warned Iran not to The report prepared for the conference was entitled To test Israel’s resolve. His country—a nuclear power, of the Brink—and Back? Note the question mark. Having course—would not allow Iran, listened to the noble Lord, Lord West, and his contribution I feel even more unstable than I did before. He talked “to put a noose of terror around our neck ... we will act if necessary, not just against Iran’s proxies … but against Iran about the instability of the current situation and the itself”. risks that Putin was prepared to take in the belief that He compared the Iranian nuclear deal with the US the West would not retaliate, and he painted a picture with the Munich attempt to appease Hitler: sanctions that underlines everything that Wolfgang Ischinger relief, he said, had, was worried about at the conference. “unleashed a dangerous Iranian tiger”. The noble Lord, Lord West, also referred to Hiroshima While in Munich at the weekend, the US National and Nagasaki. My mind goes back to the black and Security Advisor,General McMaster,warned of Moscow’s white Pathé news reports I saw in my local Odeon campaign to divide the West through subterfuge. What when I was a boy. The burgeoning mushroom clouds did the leader of the West, President Trump, have to from those two cities brought us initially a sense of say about it? He tweeted a rebuke to General McMaster: relief that the war would finally be over. Then the full horror emerged as we saw in later newsreels the death, “General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that devastation and destruction on the ground. Later, in the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC 1949, after the Iron Curtain had divided Europe, we and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, learned that our former glorious ally, Russia, had Emails and the Podesta Company!”. succeeded in testing its own atom bomb in Kazakhstan. That is the so-called leader of the western world. At meetings of the Parliamentarians for Nuclear Non- Mr President, you are no Jack Kennedy. Meanwhile, proliferation and Disarmament, we have a brave but in North Korea, President Kim Jong-un declares: deformed survivor of those tests, Karipbek Kuyukov, “The entire United States is within range of our nuclear who carries his disabilities with great grace. weapons, a nuclear button is always on my desk. This is reality, Britain was not far behind. Operation Grapple, not a threat … This year, we should focus on mass-producing between 1957 and 1959, saw the development of the nuclear warheads and ballistic missiles for operational deployment. British atom and hydrogen bombs at Christmas Island These weapons will be used only if our society is threatened”. and elsewhere in Australia, and some of my Trump’s response was to claim that his nuclear button, contemporaries as national servicemen—21,000 of them, “is a much bigger & more powerful one than his”. some dressed in no more than khaki desert fatigues—were This is the context in which we are discussing the there to turn their backs to the explosions as they ban treaty. In an uncertain and unstable world, we occurred. A study undertaken by Sue Rabbitt Roff, have uncertain and unstable leaders. The risks of an 111 Nuclear Weapons [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 112

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] security only when rationality prevails in the international accidental or deliberate detonation of a nuclear weapon community and we are winning sufficient numbers of have increased. The noble Lord, Lord West, referred hearts and minds. We are therefore being watched in to the accidental detonation of these weapons. The everything we do as to what we are really about, possession and deployment of nuclear weapons can particularly in areas where we have more significance, result in misjudgments and the escalation of crises, as such as nuclear issues. the Cuba crisis demonstrated. I have worked most of my life in the international It is deplorable that this Government refused even context but I cannot share with colleagues too closely to attend the discussions which proceeded the ban the dismay I see that we have moved from being seen treaty. Britain has been prepared to join treaties to ban as a country to be respected to being seen, too often, chemical and biological weapons, as many noble Lords as part of the problem. We have to do something have said. Weagree that the possession of such weapons, about this. Wealso have to recognise that the relationship and cluster bombs, is a war crime punishable by the between the nuclear powers and the non-nuclear states International Criminal Court. Each of those treaties is not good at the moment. There is a lot of mistrust, formulated a sequence for the destruction of the weapons which is of course related to the issue I just mentioned. concerned: first, the negotiation of a prohibition treaty; How does security come through hearts and minds if then accession to the treaty; the removal of such we have distrust, uncertainty and misgivings across a weapons from operational positions; and a commitment wide section of the world? That will not help to create verifiably to destroy stockpiles within a limited period. security and stability. Perhaps the Minister will claim that the United Kingdom is committed to multilateral disarmament. But it has We need to work at improving relationships between to start somewhere so let us make a start and commit the nuclear powers and the non-nuclear powers. The to joining the treaty as soon as possible. The first step Government may not like a situation in which the is for this country to be present at the table at the NPT and the high-level conference are happening. high-level conference in May. Why should the UK not Perhaps they would far prefer this to be discussed be present, at least with observer status? under the NPT processes—but the NPT itself will To the brink—and back? Mr Ischinger said at the unravel unless common ground can be built using conclusion of this weekend’s conference that after all processes such as the high-level conference. We must the rancorous debate he had heard, the question mark recognise that non-nuclear states are setting up these remains. additional processes only because of the failure of the UK and other P5 states to honour their Article 6 9.33 pm commitments. Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I join others in thanking Looking at the bigger picture, the UK needs to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for introducing this understand that for the “Global Britain” mantra to be debate. She has a formidable reputation for consistency meaningful, and for the UK to continue to have global over many years, and not just in this country. I can say influence post Brexit, Britain must be mindful of its from direct experience how highly she is regarded global reputation. This kind of high-handed and insular internationally, particularly in Europe. approach to disarmament does significant damage to We are a permanent member of the UN Security that reputation and reduces the UK in the eyes of Council. That is an immense privilege and we need to non-nuclear states. Most of the world’s population make sure that we are playing a lead role in fulfilling and their Governments are fed up and tired of a the spirit of the purposes of the UN Security Council. situation in which certain arrogant powers assume At the time of the negotiation of the non-proliferation that it is their job to manage the world. They want to treaty, as a nuclear power we were under considerable be treated as meaningful partners, and that demands scrutiny. I am convinced that that treaty was only our presence at occasions such as this conference. achieved partly because of the undertaking by the What should we specifically be doing? I would like nuclear powers that they would work seriously and to suggest several things. We should take unmistakable deliberately to tackle the issue of the existence of their action to improve diplomatic relations between nuclear own nuclear arsenals, and to reduce and eventually weapon and non-nuclear weapon states by participating eliminate them. That was a solemn undertaking; the in negotiations and stimulating dialogue. We should world is looking to us again to act in the spirit of that work energetically to restore the health of the NPT undertaking. regime, including initiating inclusive processes to In the 1970s I moved from being Minister for the work on the 2010 64-point action plan and publishing Navy, where of course I had responsibility for nuclear an annual report on the UK’s contribution to its submarines, to become the Minister for Overseas implementation. Weshould breathe life into the P5 process Development. Friends used to ask me how I put the talks between nuclear weapon states, including two things together. I said that I found no inconsistency strengthening their agenda and increasing their whatever, because it seemed to me that in any logical transparency. We should review the prominence given and sane defence and security policy, disarmament to nuclear weapons in the UK’s security doctrines, in was a critical element. They were not separate issues close consultation with Parliament and civil society. but went together. Of course, now we understand even We should use the opportunity of this 2018 UN better that there is another issue: the battle for hearts high-level conference on nuclear disarmament to build and minds. The world is desperately unstable. My bridges with non-nuclear weapon states, and we should noble friend Lord West reminded us firmly of this. It is do it by having senior members of the Government unstable, but we shall ultimately build stability and present at the conference. 113 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 114

None of us would like to be where we are. I have Lords have made clear, we should see this as a wake-up always been a multilateralist because the issue is how call for the countries that possess nuclear weapons we get from where we are to where we want to be, to act. and that will necessarily involve international The United Kingdom has been seen as one of the collaboration and agreements. I thank the noble more progressive nuclear states, leading the way in Baroness for having introduced this debate. The advocating diplomatic, technological and financial policies nightmare that is there if we ignore it is too awful to to pursue nuclear disarmament, and it has led the way contemplate. in multilateral approaches to pursue that agenda. Labour has historically been more progressive in finding solutions 9.41 pm to nuclear disarmament and continues to be so today. Under Gordon Brown’s premiership, Labour offered a Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I too “grand global bargain” that would reduce nuclear thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for initiating weapons stockpiles among nuclear weapons states and this debate. She reminded us that, on 7 July last year, vowed to cut the number of Trident submarines from 122 countries at the UN headquarters in New York four to three. The Brown Government maintained the endorsed the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear UK’s position as the most progressive nuclear weapons Weapons—the ban treaty, as noble Lords have called state in 2008 by setting up the P5 process, the first it. The eight officially recognised nuclear weapons forum between the P5 set up specifically to discuss states, plus the unofficially recognised Israel, boycotted matters surrounding nuclear disarmament, and we the process. I reiterate what my noble friends Lord also had the UK-Norway initiative. Unfortunately, Browne and Lord Judd said: the ban treaty is born out that process has been reduced in importance by the of perceived frustration by many states at the lack current Government. of progress in recent years on nuclear disarmament through the non-proliferation treaty, which was the This is the crux of the debate. All noble Lords have only multilateral treaty that contained a binding asked: where are the initiatives by this Government to commitment to nuclear disarmament through a gradual maintain the commitments and pathways set out in process based on good faith. the NPT? There do not seem to be any. As my noble friend Lord West said, the key to this process has to be As my noble friend Lord Judd reminded us, it was a a much stronger level of communication and dialogue. Labour Government who signed the non-proliferation That is the way forward. I want to hear from the Minister treaty in 1968. In its 2017 manifesto, Labour committed tonight exactly how the Government are going to engage, to support the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent particularly with the US President’s reviews that have while advocating greater UK leadership in creating been announced. How are we going to engage and stronger multilateral efforts with the global community communicate across the P5? How do we reinvigorate and the United Nations in order to achieve a nuclear the process so that we avoid the threats that we have weapons-free world. Only four countries are not a heard identified in this debate? How do we reduce party to the NPT treaty—North Korea left the NPT, tensions and the threat that nuclear weapons pose? and India, Israel and Pakistan never joined it—but it commits 185 states never to develop nuclear 9.49 pm weapons. The UK, the USA, China, Russia and France already had nuclear weapons by 1968. Since Baroness Goldie (Con): My Lords, first, I thank the 1970, there have been review conferences every five noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for tabling this debate years to pursue an incremental approach to nuclear and all noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. disarmament, which noble Lords pointed out, Let me state at the outset that the Government are through Article VI of the treaty. The NPT has of committed to a world free from nuclear weapons. It is course come under stress in recent years, most notably the Government’sview that the nuclear non-proliferation at the last quinquennial NPT review in 2015. That treaty remains central to achieving this. It has been at ended without a consensus on what actions should be the heart of global non-proliferation and disarmament taken over the next five years to pursue the goal of efforts for nearly 50 years and it remains the only nuclear disarmament, the first time that this has happened legally binding treaty on nuclear non-proliferation since 1970. and disarmament to receive global acceptance. As the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, stated, the ban Perhaps most crucially, the nuclear non-proliferation treaty’s main provisions are that member states are treaty has worked. By offering reciprocal guarantees bannedfromdeveloping,testing,producing,manufacturing, to all its signatories, it has succeeded in significantly transferring, possessing, stockpiling, using or threatening limiting the global proliferation of nuclear weapons. to use nuclear weapons. As the noble Lord, Lord As many of your Lordships will be aware, it has Patten, reminded us, though, the first major inadequacy underpinned the massive reduction in nuclear weapons of the ban treaty is that even though two-thirds of UN since the end of the Cold War, and it has allowed all member states endorsed it, there was no involvement countries to benefit from the peaceful use of nuclear of the major players in nuclear deterrence. The legal technology. It has been successful because it is built on provisionbanningthestationing,installationordeployment foundations of consensus, and because it delivers tangible of nuclear weapons on the territory of a member state benefits to all its signatories. As security threats evolve has implications for NATO countries such as Germany, and test our resolve and our values, we should cherish Italy and Turkey, which have US nuclear weapons on the far-sightedness that the treaty embodies. their soil. As we have heard in this debate, polarisation I listened with care and respect to the views expressed between nuclear weapons states and non-nuclear weapons by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford. states could be magnified by the ban treaty. As noble I perhaps cannot share his analysis, but we both seek 115 Nuclear Weapons [LORDS] Nuclear Weapons 116

[BARONESS GOLDIE] necessary.This is not just essential for our own security; the ultimate objective of a world where nuclear weapons it is also essential for NATO’s security. are redundant. Where we differ is on the journey to Yet even in this challenging context, progress on that destination. disarmament is still possible. I thought that the noble I submit that the Treaty on the Prohibition of Lord, Lord West, made a number of interesting points Nuclear Weapons, or the “ban treaty”as it is shorthanded in this respect. Allow me to give an example of one into, stands in stark contrast to the proven effectiveness strand of the Government’s work that is moving us of the nuclear non-proliferation Treaty. First, rather closer to the realising the goals of the non-proliferation than building the necessary trust and consensus between treaty. Establishing an effective nuclear disarmament states, it is seeking quick fixes. Secondly, the ban treaty verification regime will be essential if we are to realise offers no solutions to the complex security environment that long-term goal of multilateral nuclear disarmament. that we all face, nor to the technical challenges of States need to be confident that a nuclear armed state verifying nuclear disarmament. Thirdly, its attempt to will have its warheads dismantled in a way that makes create a rival legal framework for disarmament is us safer, rather than in a way the spreads nuclear flawed. Its safeguard standards are inadequate and its know-how and inadvertently increases the risk of restrictions on nuclear test explosions lack the rigour nuclear proliferation. Establishing effective disarmament of those imposed by the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban verification has been a priority for successive British Treaty. Governments. My noble friend Lord Patten made the important I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, distinction between a laudable aspiration—no one by reminding him and other noble Lords that the would dispute that that is what the ban treaty embodies— United Kingdom started working with Norway on and a system which actively contributes to a multilateral disarmament verification over 10 years ago. I pay disarmament objective. That is the problem: the Treaty tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons fails to offer a who was the Secretary of State for Defence that time. realistic path to disarmament and risks undermining The United Kingdom-Norway initiative was the first the effective non-proliferation and disarmament ever technical project between a nuclear and non-nuclear architecture that we already have in place. The noble weapons state in this field. This Government have Lord, Lord West, identified those flaws with authority. built on that work. In 2015, we established the quad As a result, the United Kingdom Government do initiative with the United States, Norway and Sweden, not intend to become party to this treaty and we do which undertook the first ever multilateral disarmament not recognise that its prohibitions represent an emerging verification exercise, at RAF Honington in October rule of customary law. I say to the noble Baroness, last year. Since 2015, we have played a leading role in Lady Walmsley, that, as we speak, the ban treaty has the International Partnership for Nuclear Disarmament received, from the original 122 countries involved, Verification, including co-chairing its working groups 56 signatories and only five ratifications. on verification objectives and verifying nuclear weapon declarations. We have co-sponsored the founding of a The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, asked about the United Nations group of government experts on UK’s commitment to disarmament. Your Lordships verification, and recently hosted a conference to prepare should be in no doubt that this Government remain the first formal meeting of the group in May this year. committed to full multilateral nuclear disarmament So this Government are, indeed, talking. under strict and effective international control. It is our firm belief that the best way to achieve this is These examples of practical and effective co-operation through verified, step-by-step, gradual multilateral improve trust between nuclear and non-nuclear weapons disarmament. I detected from the contributions that states, and take us closer to the goal of a world free several of your Lordships do not disagree with those from nuclear weapons. To be fair, I thought that the objectives. noble Lord, Lord Collins, acknowledged that there had been progress over the piece on these issues. It is important to note some essential steps along this path. The Government believe that they include: I turn to some specific contributions raised by first, the entry into force of the Comprehensive Nuclear noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, Test Ban Treaty; secondly, starting and successfully asked about matters raised by the Prime Minister in concluding negotiation of a fissile material cut-off recent meetings with different powers. He also raised treaty in the conference on disarmament; and, thirdly, the issue of cyber threats in relation to nuclear weaponry. the global adoption of the nuclear non-proliferation I shall make inquiries, and shall write to the noble treaty. Lord with any relevant information that I receive. There is no doubt that disarmament is more difficult The noble Baronesses,Lady Miller and Lady Walmsley, in the current security environment. The noble Lord, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford Lord Browne of Ladyton, spoke with authority about and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, all asked about the that. Alongside our allies, we face challenges that are UK’s view of the proposed high-level conference on growing in number, scale and complexity. The noble nuclear disarmament in May this year. The conference Lord, Lord Thomas, acknowledged that challenge, as is sponsored by the Non-Aligned Movement, which did the noble Lord, Lord Judd. These challenges include seems divided among itself about what the conference a more aggressive Russia and a more capable North should focus on. We believe that it is unlikely to lead to Korea. That is why this Government will retain our effective progress towards global nuclear disarmament. independent and credible minimum nuclear deterrent If the conference is held, which is still unclear, we shall for as long as the global security situation makes it consider our approach closer to the time. 117 Nuclear Weapons [20 FEBRUARY 2018] Nuclear Weapons 118

The noble Lord, Lord West, raised the issue of the For these reasons,it would take us further from multilateral United States nuclear posture review, and the United nuclear disarmament, rather than closer to it. That is Kingdom’sattitude to it. The United Kingdom welcomes why this Government will never recognise that its that nuclear posture review and the continued US prohibitions represent an emerging rule of customary commitment to European security and to a world law. This Government remain committed to the nuclear without nuclear weapons. non-proliferation treaty and its goal of multilateral Nuclear disarmament requires leadership from all nuclear disarmament. We shall continue to work with nuclear states so, finally, allow me to recall our own all international partners to build trust and confidence strong track record. In January 2015, we announced between states, to prevent proliferation, and to take that we had fulfilled commitments we made in the tangible steps toward a safer and more stable world, in 2010 strategic defence and security review to reduce which countries with nuclear weapons ultimately feel the number of deployed warheads on each of our able to relinquish them. That is the objective to which Vanguard class submarines from 48 to 40, and the this country and this Government are committed. As I number of operational warheads to no more than 120. suggested, this Government are prepared to lead by We remain committed to reducing our total stockpile example. of nuclear warheads to no more than 180 by the This has been a useful debate and I thank the noble mid-2020s. I suggest to noble Lords that that shows Baroness for tabling the Motion. It enabled us to make leadership by example, and I think it very important, a useful exploration of where we are and what the as a number of noble Lords rightly indicated, that the issues are. We can draw comfort from what I said in nuclear powers globally are prepared to give such response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of leadership. Chelmsford: we may disagree with one another on the This Government assess that the treaty on the analysis of where we are at the moment and what we prohibition of nuclear weapons represents a significant do or do not do, but we seem to be united in the backward step. It threatens the consensus and progress ultimate objective that we want to achieve. achieved by the non-proliferation treaty. It undermines the necessary safeguards established by that treaty. House adjourned at 10.01 pm.