Interview with Richardson Dilworth, Jr. (2/6/79) (At Mr. Dilworth's Office

Interview with Richardson Dilworth, Jr.

(2/6/79)

(at Mr. Dilworth's office)

The first question is, what are your earliest recollections of your father's political activities?

Now, I have to ask you about some of these dates...I guess that mayoralty campaign that Joe Clark managed against Bar­ ney Samuel was in '47.

(WMP: That's right.)

...which is the first I remember. I was at the time nine years old. All of the children, that is, Mother's children, Dad's children, by their previous marriages, were all very active in the campaign. I was the youngest of the eight.

(WMP: There were eight of you altogether.)

Between Mother's, by her first marriage, and Dad's, by his first marriage...Mother had two, and Dad had four, and then together they had my sister Deborah and I. So my recollec­ tions were of the street corner campaigning, which is a thing of the past. At night, I guess we'd do four or five stops a night...Dad would speak from the sound truck. We'd get a crowd with a little string band, which is why I hate string bands to this day! And the crowds were sometimes hostile...a lot of heckling...which I think Dad sort of en­ joyed, in a way, being a trial lawyer...a very aggresive trial lawyer.

(WMP: He sure was!)

The bigger crowds, during the day...and I didn't go to those meetings because I'd be at school... those street corner rallies, at Broad and Chestnut they had a huge one close to the elec­ tion .

(WMP: I remember that one.)

That was enormous, yes. As you know, it was before television and it was the only way you could get a crowd unless you could afford radio, which nobody listened to unless you were FDR.

(WMP: I think that onason Broad Street was right in front of the Belleview, wasn't it?)

I think so. I think it was at...it would be Broad and Walnut, yes. The Republican committeemen would always try to make as 2 .

much heckling and everything as possible. And initially, I don't think people took it too seriously...at least the Republicans ... they were so self-satisfied.

My recollections were just those meetings... something that I was certainly not accustomed to. I remember he had a dri­ v e r . . ^ very nice man...I can't remember his name, but...

(WMP: I can almost remember it myself...)

I think he drove him for a couple of campaigns.

(WMP: What's his name now...you know, he was sort of like a bodyguard too. He was a strong fellow.)

Well, oh, I know who you're thinking of...you're thinking of Babe...big Swedish guy.

(WMP: Yeah!)

That's right. Now, Babe came in on the 1950 gubernatorial race. And, that's right, he was the driver. But prior to that, there was a fellow who was a...couldn't have been a nicer fellow...but when Dad would get up to give a talk on the sound truck, this fellow would disappear in the near­ est taproom. By the end of the evening, we'd be driving figure eights all over the place! He was awfully nice, but he was useless by the end of the evening.

And then, my situation in regard to those days was that I went to Episcopal Academy, and I was the only person in my class, I'm-sure, whose parents were Democratic.

(WMP: You commuted from town out to Overbrook?)

Yes, on the Paoli Local....which made for rather rough-going, because children that age have no understanding of politics; they just parrot whatever the parents tell them. And in that case, most of the parents didn't have any understanding of it either. Which made it fairly rough-going...less and less so. And then, of course, in '52, I went away. But I remem­ ber various incidents, most of them more amusing, because I really, at that age, was not privy to the more serious things.

Do you remember Sam Regalbuto?

(WMP: Yes.)

Well, Sam had a plan, in the '47 campaign, to park Dad's car in front of the house, at 2217 Saint James' Street. And then Sam would have somebody....

(WMP: That was your home, wasn't it?)

Yes. And Sam would have somebody come by and machine-gun 3 .

the car...which would all be blamed on the Republican!!! And Sam really didn't understand...Sam was serious...and he really didn't understand why Dad didn't think that was a good idea!!! There were other various little incidents like that.

I can remember...and I don't remember the details...I mean, I've read them, and I've gone back, but I sort of get them jumbled up. At one point, Dad was in jail, I think for crim­ inal liable...for a matter of hours...which of course, for somebody my age...it was the end of the world...he was in jail so I'm never going to see him again! I had no idea what he was in there for.

Was O'Malley the chief magistrate there?

(WMP: Yes, he had been once...and he was prosecuted by Earl G. Harrison...0'Malley was.)

When was O'Malley...

(WMP: What?)

I always liked O'Malley, and he was such a bum. He was al­ ways in a drunken brawl. Almost every day in the newspapers, there'd be another headline on O'Malley arrested in another drunken brawl in some bar!!

(WMP: He was magistrate...he had been.)

Yeah, he was the chief magistrate.

> -V . (WMP: Was he chief?)

I think so.

(WMP: Yeah, I guess so.)

I think he was the magistrate who charged a criminal liable, which was a big mistake because that enabled Dad to call each and every person to the stand...which was something they really hadn't thought about.

(WMP: Well, what did he do to them? Did his cross-examina­ tion )

Well, he had an opportunity to get them on the stand under oath. And however they answered, he was able to put, you know, the most embarrassing possible questions to them. And it gave them a forwnfor reading off all of the stuff that he and Senator Clark had accumulated.

(WMP: What year was that?)

Well, it was after the mayoralty election. 4 .

(WMP: Of 1947.)

Yeah, it would have been 1948.

I remember small incidents of sort of continual harassments For example, in the summer of '48, at that point, the child­ ren...some of the children, would go up to Eaglesmere. Mother and Dad would stay in the city...Dad couldn't stand the coun­ try. But they'd come up for a weekend, and on the way back, we were driving back, and we were involved in an accident, which was....a person pulled out in front of us. And it was not a serious accident, and it was entirely the other person's fault...nobody was injured, it wasn't serious. And the state troopers arrived and the person who'd done it admitted that he'd pulled out...he hadn't signaled. But by the time the hearing came up, they'd gotten to this guy, and his story was completely different, so that Dad lost his license, and he didn't have a license for the summer of '48. So Mother had to drive him everywhere. But it was that kind of... constant little harassment like that....which he loved, act­ ually, he didn't mind it.

(BF: You mean the Republicans had gotten to this person?)

Yeah, because, of course, at that time the entire state was Republican, and that was the sort of petty little games that they played, and all it did was .... with people like Senator Clark, Mr. Phillips and Dad, it just egged them on!I It didn't slow them down, it just sped them up!!!

But the campaign...now, let's see...they ran for...Senator Clark ran for controller in '49, I guess; Dad ran for treas­ urer. I don't remember who the other...at that time, he also had....who were the other two? They did away with the treas­ urers, as elective. They had four row offices.

(WMP: In the old days, the controller and the treasurer were elected.)

Right. But there were two more, I think.)

(WMP: That would have been...)

Maybe the sheriff?

(WMP: Yes, I think it might have been.)

And there was a fourth one, I think. Well, in '49, they ran for that, and that was really more of the same, only there were more people involved at the rallies.

Well, I became more and more, J guess, aware ... I can't honestly say that I ever enjoyed the campaigning...because I never real­ ly knew what was going on. I would just be dragged out to these rallies. 5 .

The older children would be involved at the headquarters with volunteers...that sort of thing. Louie Hill led a thing called the "Flying Squadron", I think. Being right after the war, everything had to ... tended to have a mili­ tary thrust to it, so that young volunteers were called the Flying Squadron. I think that was in the '47 campaign.

But the children were quite enthusiastic about it. And Lou Hill was at Penn Law School at that time, and there were four girls...four of my...no, three of my sisters, who were right at that age where they had several beaux, and a lot of them came from Penn Law School, I think, because Lou was there. And they got, you know....there were always young people in their twenties in the house, and they were quite involved. That was sort of fun.

And Marie married Cappy Townsend, who was in Lou's class. And Michael von Moschzisker was right in that era; I don't know just what year he graduated. I think he was in the same class with Henry Sawyer.

(WMP: I think they were, yes.)

Right after the war, I think...maybe it was a little earlier. I'm not sure. But anyway, that was sort of enjoyable...hav-. ing people constantly in and out.

And in the '50 campaign, that was fairly grueling. We had a victory caravan...it was Bill Churchman. Then Swede Hanson Swede Hanson... that was the driver...and Bill Churchman drove

* r. (WMP: He was a big strong guy, wasn't he?)

Right. He later became....Dad made him a detective.

(WMP: I thought he was his bodyguard.)

Well, he really was a driver; Dad never really had a body­ guard. And later, he gave him a job as a detective...I think in the the D.A.'s office.

Let's see...in the '50 campaign, it was Francy Gowan and a couple of my brothers,, and we drove all over the state. And to me, it was a fairly ghastly way to spend a summer, because I was twelve years old and I really.... that wasn't my idea of a good time!!

(WMP: Issues didn't mean much to you then.)

No, they really didn't. I mean, when you're that age, the good guys and the bad guys....and obviously, your father's a good guyl! At the time, I was certainly much more aware of politics and political issues than any other person my 6 .

age, but if my father's on one side of an issue, you know, that was my side. I really didn't think it out; I heard what he said...that was what I_ thought.

(WMP: Do you think that your father having his whole family involved in the campaigns...you father must have felt that it was very helpful, and I guess it was, wasn't it?)

Yes, h e ....

(WMP: That was a new thing for Philadelphia.)

Well, he liked it. Most of the children were at an age where they really could be helpful. They were in their early twenties, late teens. He liked the support; it was very good publicity, you know, to have a big family in those days, it was before having a big family became more of a stigma.

So, it was very good. Both he liked the support; the older chil­ dren enjoyed it, and it was very good publicity. It didn't do him any good...when he ran against Fine in '50..•Fine.... and Duff was running for senator...well, he was the incum­ bent senator. No, wait a minute. The incumbent was a Demo­ crat. That's right. Duff was coming up for the governor­ ship. Meyers was the incumbent Democratic....Francis Meyers...

(WMP: Was the senator.)

U.S. senator, incumbent. He was running for re-election, Duff was running against him, and Fine was running against Dad. If they ever had a debate, and I don't think they had a debate, it wasn't like Philadelphia, where you get big crowds; it was traveling all over in a car caravan, stopping in these little towns...you'd get a crowd of five or six peo­ ple. The most exciting thing that happened one day was Dad got up for a speech and his fly was open! Sometimes the towns were so small....we went through one town at about 80 miles an hour and didn't even realize we'd gone through it. And it was all, you know, sort of beyond me...I was never aware of just where we were. It was just one small town after an­ other... we'd do twelve or fourteen a day. And then at night there'd be a dinner in some Elks' Club, or more often it would be something like the American Legion Post, where they'd have a bar and they would have slot machines. I found that the rural communities could give the big cities lessons in corruption. Everybody always thought it was the reverse; I found it to be the rural counties where there was the most corruption.

(WMP: You think they were?)

That was always my feeling: you didn't get anywhere unless you knew somebody's cousin..ieverything involved pay-offs. Everybody had their hand in the....it was unbelievable..at 7 .

Johnstown...remember John Torquado, down at Johnstown?

(WMP: Oh, yes.)

He's still there, I think I

(WMP: Is he really?)

He was just unbelievable! He was a model of corruption!

Then after the '50 defeat, then Dad ran for D.A. and Sena­ tor Clark ran for mayor, I guess... in '51.

(WMP: '51 is when Clark ran for mayor.)

Right, Dad ran for district attorney, and their symbol that year was . . t'with the broom, w'e^re going to sweep City Hall clean". And that was a much less tumultuous election. But I remember at a street corner meeting in '51, Virginia Knauer's husband was running... that little hen-pecked man whose name I can't remember. And he couldn't raise a crowd, so he would follow Dad around, and when Dad raised a crowd...he was also running for D.A., then he would speak...and he would speak at the same time, and he really hadn't much to say, as I under­ stood it...so he'd try to disrupt Dad's speech. And Dad could be foolishly abusive at times. And at one time he re­ ferred to Knauer a s ‘’that murderer"! And Knauer, in fact, had been in....

(WMP: Bill Knauer, his name was.)

Yeah, and isn't his son assistant >D.A.?

(WMP: Is he, I didn't know.)

There's a Knauer in there, I think.

(WMP: Could be.)

I think he is. Anyway, Knauer had been involved in a car accident where there'd been a fatality, and he'd been charged with manslaughter, but he'd been acquitted. So he sued for liable...or, I guess, slander...which was the standard, and then after the election, you know, the one side makes the outrageous statement, the other side becomes enraged and sues. And then after the election, the whole thing.... everybody's lost interest, and it's all settled by^public apology being printed in the newspaper. It was the standard procedure! No cash ever changed hands...no judgments...nobody went to court. Which was a very sensible way to handle those things.

Well anyway, Senator Clark and Dad...the only thing I really remember... that was just more of the same of the street corner campaigning, except for now, our father ran in his trailer. 8 .

But it wasn't exciting in a way, because they'd already won in '49. It was pretty clear they were going to win. Now you were...weren't you Senator Clark's campaign mana­ ger for that?

(WMP: Yes, along with a couple of other people.)

And wasn't it fairly clear that they were going to win that campaign?

(WMP: Yes, fairly clearly so.)

So...not that it was in any way an anti-climax, but it wasn't the sort of...brawling atmosphere of the '47 campaign.

(WMP: It was a very smoothly run campaign, as I remember. Everybody knew...felt there was going to be a victory. The only problem at that particular juncture was whether the first guy to be mayor was going to be your father or Joe Clark.)

I remember that, yeah.

(WMP: And I think the people around your father naturally thought your father shouldn't step aside, but your father had made a promise to Joe Clark, and it would be his turn, next time around, to head the ticket.)

I remember the controversy...because Dad had the agreement with Clark, that Clark would head the ticket. I know that Mother...

‘ * iV (WMP: Was quite upset about it.)

...was very upset. The problem that Mother had in politics is that she took everything personally. Whereas Dad didn't, and I don't think that most of the children came into poli­ tics .... 'cause the day after election, all those horrible things that you'd said...no longer meant anything! There was going to be another election and you'd get going for that. You didn't worry about the last one.

(WMP: You don't look back.)

But Mother never could do that, and she would form during an election, real hates. And then after the election, she wouldn't be able to drop it. She took all these things very personally.

(WMP: Yes, I'm afraid I was one of the people that she hated.)

Well, the list would get longer and longer with every election! And it was not only those people who were against him, but those who hadn't shown enough support 1! I remember for years they had friends...I think it was in the 1947 election, right 9 .

before the election... the Republicans ran a full^.page ad with...I don't know how many names in it...of people who came out and said they were not only for Barney Samuel, but that Dad was a totally unsuitable candidate. And sev­ eral of their friends were among the names...which caused a tremendous uproar, mainly on Mother's part. Dad...I don't think he was happy about it in any way, but he didn't say anything. But Mother was just furious, and she called up a lot of these people and let them know. And I know, in the case of one, they swore that they didn't know anything about it...that they'd just been asked by the Republican party to give a contribution. They had no idea that it was for a newspaper ad...which probably was true, because they were the kind of people you had so many of, in those days, who were Republicans and had no interest...no knowledge of politicians...politicians were dirty, grubby little immi­ grants ... particularly if they came from the city. The Re­ publicans, because of Abraham Lincoln, were the only respon­ sible party to be in. And that was the extent of their poli­ tical thinking. And of course, FDR was a fiend, etc., etc.

So they were automatically Republicans; they didn't think about it. They would give their regular contribution every year.

But anyway, Mother took that very seriously. And when Dad ran for governor in '72...'£2, another ad came out like that, with a list of names, among whom was one which was Freddy Potts...and Clarence Wharton, who was on the board of First Pennsylvania. And I think...oh, who's the head of Fidelity? Peterson. I think Peterson was one of them, but I'm not sure. And I think that upset Dad because he had tried very hard to arrange, at Freddy Potts' request, for the merger of the PNB and Girard. And he'd gone down to Washington to testify, you know, that Philadelphia needed a bank of this size. And the merger got shot down, but Dad had tried very hard in Freddy Potts' beh’&^t, and so he was quite hurt when Freddy Potts signed this...or let his name be used in this ad...which was when he ran against Scranton.

I'm getting a bit ahead of myself...maybe I should go to the next question here. What sort of support did you and your mother and other members of the family lend to campaigning and to other public activities in which your father was in­ volved?

Well, I think we've pretty much gone over that, except.... other public activities. Aside from the politics, the family kept a fairly low profile in other aspects. There was.... when Dad won the district attorney's office in '51, Mother, for reasons I don't know...and again, I was pretty young, she wanted to be office manager for the district attorney's office. And Dad had said all right, I think, because she had been after him about it. 10.

Mother was very helpful in the campaign. She went every night; she went everywhere. Well, he never had any inten­ tion of making her office manager. She had never worked a day in her life...in an office.

(WMP: Sounds like my wife.)

And that caused very hard feelings for a while...between them. I don't think Mother seriously expected to be office manager, but nevertheless, there was a good deal of hard feeling there for awhile, because of that. I just men­ tioned that, you know...did any of the family get involved in other public activities...I can't think... other than be­ ing committeepeople, mainly in the suburbs, where, if you were willing to be_ a Democratic committeeperson, you didn't even have to run...I mean, they just appointed you...'cause you're the only one!!!

But other than that sort of thing, I can't think....certain­ ly not in my case, 'cause I went away to school at that point, in '52, and I was fourteen.

Did your father consult with the family with regard to his decisions to run for the various public offices? And what weight did he give to the family's feelings about his poli­ tical life?

Well, I'm sure he did consult with Mother about it. He didn't consult with the children...although he would talk...we would talk. But very often circumstances would determine it, any­ way. For example, When he wanted to run for governor...when did Leader-run for governor and win? '54?'

(WMP: Can you remember it?)

I'm pretty sure it was '54. And Dad had wanted to run that time. It looked like the Democrats would have a good shot at it for the first time since Earl. It was a strange thing; he kept saying he wanted to be governor, but he would always do something to louse it up. I had the feeling, subconscious­ ly, maybe he didn't want to really be governor....'cause it was a lousy job!

And that's the year he stuck his foot in his mouth; he said we should recognize Red China. And Dave Lawrence got all... suddenly turned into this super-patriot, and...well, of course, we couldn't have anybody running who was...and all of the liberal Democrats agreed about Red China, but it was a stupid remark because in the McCarthyera, in regard to communism, you just tried to lay low...'cause it was an uphill fight. 1 1 .

But anyway, that type of decision he made himself by just saying the wrong thing about something that had nothing to do with the campaign.

(WMP: Off the top of his head...without planning to do it.)

Right. Which is exactly why the newspaper reporters always loved him...because he would do that. I think it's why he made his supporters very nervous, 'cause they never could be too sure when he would say the wrong thing. And it's not just that it was the wrong thing, it's just that it wasn't the time to say it. And it was unnecessary; it had nothing to do with running for governor.

But that was his style and he got more mileage out of that style than it cost him, really. <

But I think, sort of to go back, I think he and Mother did jointly, decide certain things...because there's no question, he never would have been able to be in politics if it hadn't been for Mother. Really, without that support, he just couldn't have done it. So he was very dependent on her.

(BF: What sort of support did she give him, other than just emotional? She was very active...)

Well, that was primarily it; she was constantly with him. And he really needed that. He would not have held up if he hadn't had it. And I don't know if he ever would have gotten into politics...he might have just drifted off, af­ ter the war into a h^avy-drinking lawyer. * v V (WMP: She was a stabilizing factor in his life in every respect.)

Very much, yeah. And so they did arrive at joint decisions, although, vThen they would disagree, politically, he would prevail, such as when Mother wanted him to run for mayor in '51. And he just couldn't; he and Senator Clark had a deal and that was the deal. And that was that.

(BF: Did you feel that she was more ambitious for him than he was for himself?)

No, she didn't basically like politics. She was entirely enmeshed in his life. She recognized after the war that if he didn't get into politics, the alternative was going to be...not good....that he was just going to drift off in­ to heavy drinking, and he was bored with the law, and she didn't ever enjoy politics, but she saw that as the only career he could have that he could really enjoy and make something out of.

(WMP:To what extent, Dick, do you feel that his war experi­ ences #ave him a need for excitement and the sort of outlet 12.

that you can get in politics?..conflict.

Well I think that he always had a need for the conflict. I don't think that the war created the need. I think it was there. I think that's why, at the age of forty-three, he went into the Marines. Of course, he'd been in the First World War. He knew a lot of marine officers; he'd kept the contacts up over the years. always But I don't think he went in because heAhad this need for conflict. You know, in the thirties, he was a very aggres­ sive trial lawyer. A lot of the lawyers in Philadelphia hated him.

(WMP: And he'd been a football player, hadn't he?)

At Yale, he was a football player. And he was fairly, physically pretty small to be a football player. But he always like this... that's why he became a trial lawyer. He was in the First World War. He enlisted. And I think that when he came out of the war...it had been a very ex­ citing period...he was tired with the law...he'd done that. And he'd gone as far as he thought he could go in it. He wasn't interested in the money, particularly. He could have gone on and made a very nice income as a trial lawyer, but he wanted something that was going to be different and that was going to offer the same sort of contention. And he'd always been very interested in politics. And since the First World War, he'd been a Democrat. His family, of course, were all Republicans.

(WMP: How-long had your family lived in Philadelphia? I had the feeling that your mother used to be from some other city, wasn't she?)

Well, Mother was born in Michigan. The family moved to New York City around 1910. Dad was born in Pittsburgh and his family moved to New York City around 1905. So that both... Dad came to Philadelphia when he married his first wife, Bobbie Kerr was her...her second marriage was to a Mr. Kerr.^ Her maiden name was, I think, -Rooky-,'"’bu t it might Have been Warden* And he married her in 1926 and moved to Philadelphia. They lived in Chestnut Hill and he practiced law at the firm that's now Pepper, Hamilton and Sheetz. I don't remember what it was then.

And he and his first wife were divorced in 1935, and Mother was still living in New York with her first husband, and then they were divorced, and Mother and Dad were married in '35, and Mother moved down here in '35. And they moved into Center City...at a time when nobody lived in Center City. And I don't know specifically why, but I would suspect be­ cause there was a lot of bitter feeling between Dad and his first wife...and maybe the family and friends...in those days, 13 .

divorce was still a very sloppy thing...everybody took sides.

And Mother was from outside Philadelphia, which was a great deal more parochial in those days. And so they said, "the hell with it", and lived in Center City. So that's when they arrived.

In regard to the City Charter fight going on...to get the new City Charter...I don't remember that at all. I'm sure at the time I was aware of it, but I didn't really know what it was all about. I didn't even know what a city charter was. And that was a very big thing and I was oblivious, pretty much, to that.

(WMP: Well, I think Joe Clark and your father both supoort- ed the draft of a new City Charter, and that went into ef­ fect the year before Clark's election.)

'507 Did that go in in '50?

(BF: '51.)

'51? And the election was in *51.

(BF: The election was in '51? they took office in '52. What about the question about your father's advisors and supporters?)

Advisors and supporters?

(BF: Who were the people around your father upon whom he most depended for advice and support?)

Well, you know, I really don't know. It seems kind of stu­ pid to say that, but by the time he was elected district at­ torney in '52, he really started to put together the staff that was going to stay with him. Now, Natalie Saxe, for ex­ ample, I think she was in there from the very first campaign. But, after '52, he started putting together some of the peo­ ple who went all the way through with him. And I know all the names, Cliff Brenner,...he didn't come until a bit later.. ...but I really don't know who had more influence on him than the others, because I was away.

And he kept...he never really discussed ...he would discuss with me, and we corresponded while I was away very frequent­ ly. And he would discuss the problems he was having in his campaign or in the office...whatever it happened to be. But rarely would he mention anything about the staff. So I real­ ly don't know.

I think that he and Joe Clark certainly went their own ways pretty early...not with any bitterness...Joe Clark went off one way, and Dad went off the other. He stayed here; Joe 1 4 .

Clark was aiming for the Senate. I really don't know. And I don't think there was anybody who was a particular influence, and certainly, no other politician.

That again, is getting to the period where I was the least involved.

Would you describe your father as a husband and a parent?

Well, he and Mother were very close. They had a very close relationship. They were constantly together. As a parent, I don't know, really, how most political households are run, but in our household, the politics...and the politicians... really didn't come into the house.

(WMP: They didn't?)

No. There'd be a lot of political talk in the house... among the family...but, as I say, I was the youngest of eight children, and every one of the children went to boarding school. So really, by the time I was nine or ten years old, the children were either married or they were in college... two of my brothers...one brother, around 1950, went to Chi­ cago and he's been there ever since. One in the mid-fifties went up to Boston; he's been there ever since. The family was very dispersed...early in the fifties.

And as far as a parent, Dad was in some ways a very attentive parent. He was always very aware of how everybody was doing at school, and he kept on top of that. But the politics was constant; every night he would be out. It caused a certain lessening of the family, at h o m e .... except between him and Mo­ ther, because Mother would go with him.

I think some of the children, perhaps two of the boys, really were intimidated by the whole political thing and didn't want to be in Philadelphia. That's why they left. I mean, maybe it was too much for them. Of course, they were much older and closer to it than I was.

And then, by the time I got back, it was really over. When he went into the. school board, I always kept a very large dis­ tance between myself and anything to do with the school board. And I rarely talked to Dad about it; we'd talk about politics a great deal, but I just didn't even...I didn't want to be in­ volved in the school board. I was just starting in Philadel­ phia...! was working at the First Pennsylvania and I wanted to live here, and live my way...and I didn't want to be in­ volved ... sort of sucked into that.

So we rarely talked about school board and I kept very much in the distance from it.

(BF: Have you found it sort of a handicap to have your fa­ ther's name?) 15.

Well, it cuts both ways. You can use it very much to your advantage, and you can....at times, it can be a handicap. I can tell you very specifically how it was a handicap. I'm a real estate investor. And we do some brokerage, too. And when Frank Rizzo came in...it seems like 300 years ago now, I owned a house in my name. And my assessment in one year was increased 150%. Now Frank Rizzo didn't order them to increase my assessment, but I've been around politics, politicians, bureaucrats, long enough to know how they work. You have a sense of what the boss wants, and so you do it.

I know, for example, when Thatcher Longstreth ran against Rizzo...the city inspectors went out to a house owned by Nancy Longstreth, and wrote it up for violations... it was a rented house....like strings missing from the window shades.

Now, nobody told them to do that; they just thought it would be a good idea...and they thought they were doing their boss, who was Tate, a favor. But of course, it just made Tate and Rizzo look awful.

Well, this is the same kind of thing. Now it's a very spe­ cific example of why it's a drawback. I have to go down to City Hall a lot. I go to Licenses, L & I, and the Zoning Board. I can't use my name. Every time I buy a building, it's got to be a partnership or a corporation... and that's the way it goes. It's not anything I can't work with; it's a nuisance. If there was a friendly party in there, I don't make any bones about the fact that the name would be an asset. I wouldn't have to say to anybody...Hey...you know, without being told, they think they're doing somebody a favor that may be helpful to them.

And so that just works both ways. I've never played on it. I never said, "Do this for me because this is my name". But it works both ways. And on the whole, because Dad was a poli­ tician that people were fond of....on the whole...not so much in South Philadelphia...but on the whole, it's been more of an advantage than a disadvantage. But what about Wally? It's been helpful to Wally,hasn't it?

(WMP: Yeah, I guess it hasn't hurt.)

Of course, Wally has political ambitions, which I never did.

(WMP: I don't know if he has....yeah, he would like to be district attorney, but he hasn't made it yet, and I don't know if he will continue that idea...or think of waiting it out.)

I thought he might have his eye on the attorney general, now that it's elective.

(WMP: Yeah, I think he might.) 16 .

Well, I think on the whole, it's been helpful, though. Don't you think so?

(WMP: Yeah, I do.)

It's certainly been helpful to Bill Green!

(WMP: That's for sure!)

(BF: And Jack Kelly.)

And Jack Kelly.

(BF: We've interviewed both of them.)

I think, unless you really are blatant about it...almost the way Indira Ghandi' s son was...if yoU'.don't apparently....

(WMP: If you don't seek something because of it...)

Because of it...it would be more of an advantage than not. It's just one of the things, when people consider you...it's one of the main things they consider as...on the plus side.. ...unless they happened to hate your father!!

♦♦♦interruption of the taping***

I was saying...one of the things I really disliked having to do was walk in the Mummers' Parade annually with Dad. And it would always be Freddy Mann, Bob Crawford, myself, and, of course, Dad...who would be leading the thing, you know...... well, I don't know what it is today...they seem to have changed it around, but it used to be three sections. You had the comics, then you had the fancies, and then you had the string bands. And the fancies and the string bands took themselves very seriously... spent a lot of money...but the comics were just a herd of drunks who had cork on their face and some rags...who were never dressed up warmly, because they were so drunk, they could never feel the cold!!

And they were the ones that we would precede...at 7 o'clock in the morning, or something, and it was ...to see them...I mean, they'd been drinking for a week, and the police would get them in line with clubs....I mean, they would club them into line. You'd march along, and every few blocks you'd have to stop for this sort of drunken, rabble to catch up... with the police prodding them in!!!

But Freddy Mann resented having to walk every time, because he always would arrange to have this limousine there. And he'd always be urging Dad to get in the limousine. And Dad didn't want any part of the limousine...he felt if he had to do this, he might as well at least have people see that he 17 .

was doing itl! So it would force...Freddy Mann would have to walk...from Washington Avenue or whatever it was...up to City Hall.

(WMP: Did Freddy do that? Did he make it?)

Well, I remember a couple of years he did. As I remember, it was the four of us every year. I think I did it about four times.

(WMP: Well, Joe Clark would never do it. So he turned it over to me. And then Freddy Mann finally took over. But the first time, Freddy loaned me his great big racoon coat to keep warm! That was very nice! We used to wear those black Homburg hats.)

I don't ....I always wondered why they felt that they had to do.... why Dad felt that he had to do it... politicians always did it, because certainly the mummers didn't care. They were completely involved in their own thing. Either... if they were comics, they were too drunk to know...and if they were fancies, or string bands, they were much too in­ volved in their own day to care about a politician. The people on the street didn't care, because they came to see the mummers. They could care less about a politician. And I think, in a way, they tended to resent it, because if this is our day, and we came out to see the mummers, and you're just trying to horn in.

(WMP: I think they're right, too, in a way.)

In a way, yeah. So, I don't know‘why politicians do it, but then, on the other hand, I guess they have the feeling well, if they don't, then the mummers would feel that they have been slighted...they don't think that we're worth the effort. So, it's one of the things that you just have to do, I guess. And you don't get any points for doing it, but you lose points if you don't do it.

(BF: I'm curious, going back to your father* in his role as a father, was he very demanding,' in terms of what he wanted from his children? I mean, did he set high goals for you?)

Well, as far as I went, he was very demanding as far as school went. But he left me very much to make up my own mind as to what I wanted to be, or do. Now he had in his mind that there were certain things that I should do. He was very....I was given no choice about going to boarding school.. .which I had no desire to do. But'^his mind, teen­ agers went to boarding school. So I went. I could have had my choice, but what did I_ know? He obviously wanted me to go to the one he'd gone to, so as long as I had to go, it was as good as any. He was very anxious that I go to Yale. A lot of this had to do with his idea of what was 18 .

socially correct, too. He was very much of a snob, socially. And he felt there were certain things that were important for you to do. I never had that feeling, and while I was in college, he arranged for me to be...to go into the Marine Corps...as an officer...which I didn't discover until after he'd died. I knew that he wanted me to go in the Marine Corps, but I didn't realize the extent that he went to to engineer it. And if he felt that it was in my best interest...but to me, it was three utterly wasted years, which I really wish I hadn't done.

He wanted me very much to go to law school. And I went to law school for a year, and I really disliked it and I left. And I guess, at about that point, I began to feel that enough was enough, and I had more than done the things that he felt were necessary...and, as he felt, were in my best interest. But, I think it was hard for him to understand that things that interested him really didn't interest me.

(WMP: You went to Yale. Did you play football like he did?)

No, I never did. You see, that's something that disappointed him. And he couldn't quite understand this...I had no inter­ est in the things that he did. He was a member of Scroll and Key...one of the three or four secret societies. I had no interest in that sort of thing. I didn't go out for any sport. When I got out of boarding school and no longer had to go out for sports, it was delightful to me. And he didn't quite understand that.

(WMP: It's the reverse in our family. I didn't go in for sports, but Wally did.) ,v

Well, the things that interested me didn't interest him, and the things that interested him, didn't interest me...with certain exceptions. I did, and still do...I enjoy politics... strictly from an observer's standpoint...but I love, politics... I love the in-fighting, and I like knowing what's going on.

I don't know if you happened to watch it, there was a program on the other night about the struggle of getting the energy bill through...it was called "The Energy War"...it went on for about four sessions. For anybody, that would have been the most boring program...five minutes would have put anybody to sleep. But I sat there and watched all four segments of it. It must have been four hours of it...of senators and lobbying, and little deals being made. To me, that was just fascinating I! I love it!!!

And Dad and I talked a great deal about politics... and we were very fond of each other. But he was forty years older than I was. So we never really had what you would consider a sort of chummy, father-son relationship. He didn't take me fish­ ing. ...he wouldn't have known how....whereas that's the sort of thing I enjoy. 19.

I've sort of gotten off the track here.

Okay, do you want me to finish up these?

(WMP: You don't have to do any more than you want to do, but if there's something you'd like to put on the tape, why we'd be glad to have them.)

What do you think your father's greatest achievements were?

Well, what do I_ think they were? I think that his greatest achievement was coming out of the war, Second World War, as somebody who was really lost, and with a tremendous drink­ ing problem...I mean, if he kept on going the way he was, he would have drunk himself to death in a few years. That was in 1945...'46. He had a tremendous drinking problem.

(WMP: Well, how'd he overcome it?)

Well, he went and he saw Dutch Chambers at the Institute. I think three-quarters of the people of that generation saw Dutch Chambers. Was it Dutch Chambers...at the Institute?

(WMP:I think his name was Chambers, but I don't know if it was Dutch Chambers.)

He wasn't a doctor. He was the only one out there who wasn't a doctor. And it was clear...he was bored with the law...and I think Mother was enormously supportive at this point. He was drinking a great deal, and he made up his mind, I guess with Mother, and Chaitibers was very helpful to him...that he was going to get into politics...because that was the only thing open to him that was going to give him something to pull himself together.

(WMP: Offer some excitement...which he liked.)

Yeah...and interest...and he...so that's what 1^ always thought was the greatest achievement. That always amazed me, because he was in terrible shape at the end of the war. And fora year, it only got worse.

When he got the mayoralty nomination...or thenod...at the time, it was extremely important. And I remember the day that he got it. We were out in Wynnewood...we used to rent a house in Wynnewood for the summer. And he came home and said he'd gotten it, and he was very pleased...he told us at dinner. And we also thought it was great. And that was something at that age that baffled me, because after he'd announced this, I thought he said he was going to run for mayor, and I thought he meant that the next morning he was funning for mayor. Well of course, for months, nothing happened. I thought he must have forgotten about it or something. 20.

But from that time on, he was a completely different person.

The first time he ran for mayor in '47...

(WMP: That excited him, yeah. But after that, running for treasurer must have been pretty dull for him.)

Oh no, no....the whole political thing...and running...was very exciting to him.

(WMP: Even if it was only for treasurer?)

Yes.

(WMP: Yeah, and of course, then he finally did run for mayor and almost served two terms, didn't he.)

Well, he went in in '55,or was it '56...I guess he went in...... then he resigned in '61 or '62? '62, I guess.

(WMP: So he didn't finish out his second term.)

No, which he really would like to have done. He would much rather have been able to run again for mayor...than to have had to run for governor, but he saw no alternative. If he wanted to stay in politics, he had to run for governor, 'cause he couldn't run for a third term as mayor...which he really would have preferred.

And I don't think he really wanted to be governor. That cam­ paign he ran against Scranton was the worst campaign he ever ran. And it was the only time...I was in the Marine Corps and I was about to go to Okinawa in the late winter of '62, and I had lunch with him here and he was just starting the cam­ paign and he really was not looking forward to it. And it's the only campaign I ever saw him go into where he really wasn't looking forward to it. He had no desire...well, I won't say no desire to be governor...but he...the governorship job was a terrible job then...I don't think it's much better now.

(WMP: Could it not possibly have been a stepping stone to the White House?)

Oh, I don't think he ever seriously really considered that. When he won the mayoralty campaign of '59, there was a little flurry about maybe being vice-president...which was very flat­ tering to him, but I don't think he ever put any credence in it. And I don't think he ever...he didn't have any national recognition...he was by that time...'59, he was sixty-one years old. To get national recognition, you had to be gov­ ernor of New York or California, or otherwise you had to be a senator. He had no desire to be a senator. He always wanted to be the executive. He didn't want to be one of the legislators...whether U.S. senator or anything. 21.

\ So I don't think he really had any ambition along those lines...and he really would have liked to have kept being mayor...like Frank RizzoiI

(WMP: Did he know Rizzo at that time?)

Yes, funny thing...you know...I don't know what year it was, but Dad was mayor...and we were driving up Broad Street and we were coming from some official thing...I don't know...may­ be it was the Army-Navy game, or it was probably that Hero Award thing they have every summer. We were driving up Broad Street and there was this police captain there, and he gave the most obsequious salute...he was standing on the island in the middle of Broad Street. And Dad said, "That's Frank Rizzo",....or no, he said, "That's Captain Rizzo". And I remember asking who it was, because he had his braid on his peak, and he gave this really obsequious salute, and I said, "Who's that?"...because he did it in...you know, a way you couldn't miss. And he said, "That's Captain Rizzo", he said, "a very slippery individual"!!!

And this was long before anybody'd heard of Rizzo, or maybe, it was just as Rizzo was getting to be known as the 'Cisco Kid...I don't know. But I'd never heard of him. And so they always hated each other.

(WMP: I can see why they would...they're both very ener­ getic people...but one had different standards than 'the other.

Well, what do you think were your father's greatest disap­ pointments? )V

I would guess, probably not being able to stay on as mayor and have another opportunity to run for mayor.

(BF: What did he think about Tate as mayor?)

He had a pretty low opinion of Tate's ability.

(BF: So, did he feel badly that Tate was the mayor because he had resigned? Did he feel some responsibility...)

I don't think that he was particularly happy...after having seen the city come along as it had from '50...you know, f6r twenty-two years, and then to have to turn it over...I don't think that made him happy, but he was in a position where he had no choice.

When Tate ran against Specter, he didn't actively have any­ thing to do with it...since he was on the school board, but I know he would have liked to have seen Specter win. Never liked Tate. He didn't dislike Tate...and he never question­ ed Tate's honesty. He just felt he had no abilitythat he had no ability to attract people with ability... and the city 22 .

was just sort of meandering. But he really hated Rizzo... really detested Rizzo...which was wholly reciprocated!... as did Senator Clark.

No, I think his biggest disappointment, politically, cer­ tainly, was not being able to stay on as mayor...and run again.

(WMP: Well, it's too bad he wasn't able to do it.)

Well, it's strange, you know. He wished at the time that the City Charter...and he used to say so...that there shouldn't be a two-term limit. I think, as the charter's written, there should be a two-term limit...and coming from the sixty-seven years of the Republicans...gave it even more reason for a two-term limit...plus giving all of that power to the mayor that most mayors don't have. That's another good reason for the two-term limit. But he didn't like the two-term limit because he really wanted to keep on being mayor.

And then when Frank Rizzo this time, went for the charter... as he called it..."reform"...I always thought of it as the charter’'deform".. .but anyway, when he tried to knock out the two-term limit, I thought, you know, it's ironic because if there hadn't been a two-term limit when Dad was mayor, Frank Rizzo wouldn't have been here today. Maybe Dad wouldn't have been elected again...but one thing was sure...Jim Tate wouldn't have been elected. ... And if Jim Tate hadn't been elected, Frank Rizzo probably wouldn't ha© been, commissioner. So, it was sort of ironic that the two-term limit gave us Frank Rizzo, who then tried to get rid of the two-term limit.

Well, you know, maybe if it hadn't been Rizzo, it would have been somebody equally bad...who knows. But anyway... that was a satisfying election last fall.

(WMP: Well, now, Rich, you've done a good job of telling us a lot of things that are interesting and relevant to history.)

Well, thank you for coming in.