TYNWALD COURT.

Tuesday, December 16, 1902.

Present: His Excellency the Deputy- Governor, Sir James Gell, C.V.O. ; the Lord Bishop, Deemster Kneen, Deemster Moore, the Attorney-General, the Receiver-General, the Archdeacon, and the Vicar-General, in the Council; and the Speaker (Mr A. W. Moore, C.V.O.), Messrs W. Goldsmith, Kermode, Cowell, J. D. Cluoas, Quine, Laughton, R. Olucas, J. J. Goldsmith, Mylchreest, T. Corlett, Kerruish, Cowley, Quayle, Cadman; Kitto, Maitland, Hutchinson, Allen, Crellin, and Cren. nell. Mr Story, Clerk to the Council, and Mr Gelling, Secretary to the House, were in at- tendanoe.

REPLIES FROM THE KING TO AD- DRESSES FROM THE COURT. The Governor presented to the Court the fol- lowing replies to addresses from the Court pre- sented to the King on the occasion of his Ma- jesty's recovery from his recent severe illness, and on the occasion of the coronation of their Majesties. The replies were received by the members of the Court standing:— Home Office, Whitehall, 27th August. 1902. Sir,—I have had the honour to lay before the King the loyal and sympathetic message from the Legislature of the Isle of Man on the occa- sion of his Majesty's severe illness. His Majesty was pleased to receive the same very graciously. —I ani, sir, your obedient servant, A. AKERS-DOUGLAS. Sir Jas. Gell, Government House, Isle of Man.

Home Office, Whitehall, 16th Sept., 1902. Sir,—I am commanded by the King to convey to you hereby his Majesty's thanks for the loyal and dutiful address of the Isle of Man Tynwall Court on the occasion of their Majesties' Ooro• nation—I am, sir, your obedient servant, A. AKERS-DOUGLAS. Sir James Gell, Oastletown, Isle of Man.

THE LATE LORD HENNIKER. The Court remained standing while his Excellency presented the reply from the

Replies from the King to Addresses from the Court.—The late Lord Henniker. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 59 hon. A. Margaret Henniker, in reply to the vote of condolence passed by the Court on the death of the late Lord Henniker, Lieutenant Governor of the Island.

OCCASIONAL LICENCES IN RAMSEY. The Deputy-Governor laid before the Court the following documents:— Return to an order of the Curt, dated Mai August last, of the nemoer of occasional licences granted under section 24 of the lAcensingAct, 1876, in the town of Ramsey during the months of July, August, and September, in the years 1;00, 1901, and 1902. The accounts of the Insular harbours for the year ended 31st March, 1902, as audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

SIZE OF MESH OF HERRING NETS. Mr Quine asked the Chairman of the Sea Fisheries Board whether the nets used in catch- ing herrings on the west coast of the Island by small boats are not below the standard. Mr ereilin: I believe the nets used by the small herring boats are of a. smaller mesh than those used by the larger boats, especially during the first three or four weeks of the season, but if the hon. member for Rushen will refer to the repert the Fisheries Committee handed in to the Court on the 5th July last, he will see, from that, that the Fisheries Committee have nothing to do wills, and have no power over, the herring fisheries of the Island. The Act enables them only to control the trawling, dredging, and oyster fisheries. Mr Quine: I would like to ask whether there is any other power enabled to deal with it. The Deputy-Governor: You did not give me notice of that, and I would not like to answer it off-hand. I think, if you want anything fur- ther, you had better give notice.

ELECTION BY BALLOT. Mr Quine, in- accordance with notice, asked the Chairman of the Committee on Elections by Ballot (Municipal, etc.) when the Committee will be in a position to hand in their report. The Deputy-Governor: There are two vacan- cies on the Committee—Mr Cowell, of Ramsey, being, I think, one; and Mr Mylrea. the other.

Occasional Licences in Ramsey.—Size of Mesh of Herring Nets.—Election by Ballot. 60 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902.

Mr J. J. Goldsmith: I think those are both filled up. The Deputy-Governor: When? Mr J. J. Goldsmith: Three years ago. The Deputy-Governor: Thede two places? Mr J. J. Goldsmith: Yes. The Deputy-Governor: I am very sorry then, bemuse I thought they were left open, and I was going on that; but if it is so, there will be a meeting very shortly. I may just state that, as far as the evidenoe goes that has been taken, it is really just one point that the Committee will have to consider. Mr J. D. °ludas I did not quite catch the answer to the question with regard to the ballot. The Deputy-Governor: I thought there were two vacancies on the Committee, and I was looking for that., and I delayed it to the Tyn- wald Court to make the Committee up. Mr Goldsmith, however, tells me they were filled up. Mr J. D. Clueas: I wanted to know whether the Committee was sitting, because, if they were not moving in the matter, I was proposing to move that the Committee be discharged. Mr Quine: If ever there was a time in the he tory of the Island when the ballot was needed, it is now. (Laughter.) Mr Laughton: If there was ever a time when order was needled' it is now. The Deputy-Governor: It is not for discussion now.

SALE OF FEE STAMPS. Mr J. D. Cluoas: I gave your Excellency pri- vate notice of this question:— (a) Whether his Excellency is aware that in most public offices in England where fees are payable in fee stamps, such stamps are sold in the precincts of the office where the fees are payable? (b) Whether there is any, and, if so, what. reason why a similar practice should not be adopted here? (c) If there is no such reason. if his Excellency will take the necessary steps to enable fee stamps to be purchased at the Rolls Office, and the Registry Office for Deeds. The Governor: I may mention that Mr Climes is not the only person who has spoken to me. Mr Clucas may have spoken to me, but I have been spoken to by other persons as well on two or three points with reference to the sale of

Sale of Fee Stamps. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 61 stamps, and I have been consulting with Mr Story, as-ho has the management of the sale of stamps. There arc some difficulties in the way. In two or three ctses—take Port St. Mary and Port Erin for instances, and it was mentioned lately in ihe lia.11,iug!:—persona wh y want to go before a magistrate and swear an affi- davit cannot do it, liceam:e they cannot get the ls. or 2s. stamp, whichever it may be, and they have to undertake a long journey to Ramsey or to Peel in order to get a stamp to swear an affi- davit. It was only lately my attention was called 1a the fact that, in public offices in England where fee stamps are used, there is a.n office or department where persons who want stamps can buy them without having to go to some other place. The time for making inquiry has been short, but Mr Story tells me that he believes there is in England', in the public offices referred to, .an Inland Revenue Officer, who takes charge of this matter. Take, for instance, the Royal Courts of Justice, there is an Inland Revenue Officer there, as all the stamps are issued by the Inland Revenue Department, and there is an officer there placed purposely in th building to deal with 'the m'at'ter of stamps, and it is probably the same in other cases. The subject requires further considieration, and I will make further inquiry into it. Then, with reference to the other part of the question, I may state that the practice has been this. The fee stamps are all provided by the Inland Re- venue DC'7rariffir11:.. TI:.7Y111:11:0 them. They only charge us for over-printing, the special print- ing that is on them to show that they belong to the Isle of Man, end we get them at a very cheap rate. In England, I believe, besides be- ing sold at these public offices, the stamps are sold ai the pc:MIITILco. The 1' itni,o,ter-Gencral sanctions the sale by postmasters in the Isle of Man, but the posdmasters of the Isle of Man are not ambitious of selling them, because the amount allowed for the sale of stamps is so very small that they would not willingly take the trouble of them. Another thing is that security has to be given by the issuer of stamps for the amount- placed in his hands to sell. The small country postmasters don't care to be troubled ; they won't pay for the stamps to buy them and sell them again; and they don't care to have to give security. There is that difficulty, and it is not worth while to pay small salaries

Sale of Fee Stamps. 62 TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902.

to those people that sell stamps. At present there is a commission paid to the post- master in Douglas, and he has charge of the sale of all. There is -a place in Athol-street, but it is not under the Government. The person is em- ployed by the postmaster of Douglas, and what- eNer allowance he gets is from the postmaster of Douglas. Mr Story has nothing to do with it. It may be capable of improvement ; it is, be- cause I see the difficulty people in certain parts of the Island are under through not being able to do certain acts for want of stamps being legally available. I have been snaking inquiries, and I will try and see what can be clone. I have ex- plained -to you the present posilion. Mr J. D. °limas: Thte point which I raise is only with regard to the Rolls Office and Regis- try Office, and that is a matter for the Govern- ment. The Deputy-Governor: No doubt there is a great grievance there, but I feel just as much for the people in the country, where they have to go miles, possibly, to get a stamp.

INSPECTION OF REGISTERS AND SCHOOL ATTENDANCE. Mr J. D. Obsess: The other question is to call your attention to the fact that the attend- ance of children at the elementary sohools of the Island would be greatly benefitted if the school attendance officer in each district were given greater facilities for inspecting the regis- ter of birthe in his district, and to ask if you will take the necessary steps, by legislation or otherwise, to enable the school attendanoe offi- cers to inspect such register at all reasonable times free of charge? The Deputy-Governor I did not know of this question until to-day. Mr Laughton: I want to ask why this is not on the agenda? The Deputy-Governor: I know, but this is only asking questions, and I think we should finish it. It is not a matter for discussion now, and I would just get rid of it. I will make in- quiry into the matter. I don't know what can be done; there are certain fees payable by law, and, without legislation, probably nothing can lie done. I will look into it, and see if anything can be done.

Inspection of Registers and School Attendance. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 63

KING WILLIAM'S COLLEGE.—EDUCA- TION OF MANX BOYS. Mr Cowell: I 'have to ask your Excellency and the Trustees of King William's College for a return of the Manx boys educated thane from 1892 to the present time, being a continuance of a return made to a Committee of this Court in a valuable report delivered to the said Com- mittee by yourself, and reporte- in the "Times Debates," volume x.. page 1.088. The tahle, refereed to were prepared by Mr Christopher, the College Secretary. The Deputy-Governor: I can only say that the Trustees have not met since notice was given of this question. It is a different matter to whet it was before. The Trustees of Bisho's Barrow's Charity were then applying for a Bill, and were bound to go before a Committee and to give evidence. This is a question whether the Court would call upon the Principal of any school to furnish returns of what had taken place in a school. It is a precedent I would not like to see established, but, at the same time—I am only speaking for myself—but I am sure the Lord Bishop and the other Trustees would have no objection to furnish the information, but I don't think it ought to go as an order from the Court,, or otherwise, we don't know where it would stop as regards other schools. At the same time, I do not think there is the slightest objection, and I think I may answer for it at once, that it will he furnished. (Hear, hear.) The Lord Bishop: Speaking personally, as one of the Trustees, I shall be very glad to join with his Excellency in recommending my bro- t.her Trustees to furnish the return which the hon. member has asked for, but I am at one with his Excellency in thinking it undesirable to establish a precedent, which it would be if it were to go as an order of the Court to us. I think the hon. member would he acting against his own interests to put it on that ground. We know it is his desire to Have it, and I r.hall advise my co-trustees to furnish the hon .member with it. Mr Laughton I do see a great inconvenience in this discussion. We are accustomed to have subjects for discussion placed on the agenda, but the last two or throe matters which have been raised are not on the agenda. The Deputy-Governor: I am sorry. I might — - -- - King William's College.—Education of Manx Boys. 64 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. have left them over and insisted on notice being given, but it is merely a question and answer, and there is no discussion on them. Mr Laughton: We ought to know what they are. The Deputy-Governor: If there were a great number of them, and if they took a great deal of time; but, as it is, I thought it better to get rid of them.

THE BALLOT. The Speaker: In reference to the Ballot Com- mittee, a new Committee was appointed on the 25th March, 1897, consisting of yourself, the Attorney-General, Mr Cowley, Mr Wm. Gold- smith, and Mr Clucas. The Attorney-General: I was n•ot appointed then. I have been appointed since. The Deputy-Governor: It was I. There was a subsequent resolution. As to these vacancies being filled up, I must try and look into it to see if it has been done.

FLOODING OF SULBY RIVER. The following petition had been circulated among the members:- 1.—Your petitioners are the owners or occu- piers of land bordering upon the Sulby ffiver or situate in a part of this district through which the same flows, such part containing many hundreds of acres, and extending west- ward to Sulby Oladdagh. eastward to the estate of Milntown, and northward as far as the estates of Rega•by and Aust. Z.—During recent years the riparian owners or occupiers on the above mentioned portions of the said river have failed to cut the willows or osiers growing on its banks, with the result that the banks of the river have in many places so encroached upon the bed of the stream, and so narrowed its width, as seriously to impede and interfere with the regular flow of the waters of the river as heretofore. 3.—In times of flood great quantities of stones, gravel. and sand are carried down from the upper portions of the river, and are deposited in the lower reaches thereof, thereby causing the bed of the river in these localities to silt up, which, while materially assisting to impede the regular flow of the waters of the river, also prevent the effective flow of water from the agricultural drains and ditches discharging int.) the river. 4.—No effort has been made in recent years to clear the course of the stream, or excavate the stones, gravel, and sand so silted up. 5—From these causes the waters of the river are not properly carried off, and the lands ad- jacent to the river, as well as those situate at

The Ballot —Flooding of Sulby River, TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 65

considerable distances therefrom, are inundated, causing Innen. loss and Minn' to crops, storks, and agriculture generally. G.=rhe bed of the river in certain localities, as mentioned in paragraph two, is nearly be- coming narrower, and the inundations conse- quent thereon and on the matters mentioned in paragraphs two and three. are yearly becom- ing more frequent, extensive, and injurious. 7.--Your petitioners are desirous that a Coins mitten of this Honourable Court may be ap- pointed io examine into the matters referred to in this petition, and, if necessary, to take evi- denes thereon and report to this Court what (if any) legislation is neoessary or desirable for the purpose of remedying the grievances of your petitioners. Wherefore your petitioners humbly pray a hearing hereof, sod that this Honourable Court may be pleased 'to appoint a Committee to con- sider and report upon the matters herein re. ferred to, and that your petitioners may have such other and future relief in the premises an is meet., and your petitioners will ever pray. Mr Cowley: I beg to present a. petition from the owners and occupiers of land in Andreas and Lezayre. I understand that a copy of the petition has been eireu'.ated, and, under those circumstances, is it necessary that I should read the petition? • The Receiver-General: There were no names attached to the print. Mr Cowley: It is signed by 43 persons, occu- piers and owners. The Dcputy-Governor: What is the prayer of the petition? Mr Cowley: Th.a prayer is to grant a Com- mittee of this Court to inquire as to the serious injury which has arisen during recent years from the overflowing of the Sulby river. If the Court would allow me a minute or two, I would be glad It) enlarge on the matter, and put in- formation before die Court which is not in the petition. Mr Laughter': May I ask the hon. member for whom he is appearing, for I have a docu- ment professing to beSigned' by a number of people, but not one name is affixed to it. Mr Cowley: There are 43 names. Mr Laughton: There may be 77, but there is not one signed the document supplied to members. The Deputy-Governor: They are not bound to send that round. Mr Laughton Very well, perhaps not; but let us then get rid of the obligation of this being sent round. Mr Cowley It is simply to avoid the necessity

Flooding of Sulby River. 65 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. of taking up the time of the Court in reading the petition. Mr Laughton You did not affix the names in order to avoid taking up time in reading the petition. I don't understand it. The Deputy-Governor : Here is a petition with the names. Mr Cowley: I am in the hands of the mem- bers of the Court. I shall be very glad to read the petition. Ties Deputy-Governor: There was no neces- sity to send that petition round. It is only giv- ing information, and its being done does not prevent your presenting the actual petition. Mr Cowley: That I do, but is it necessary I should read the petition? ("No.") The Deputy-Governor: If you are going to make a motion to-day for a -Committee, then, of course, there will be a long discussion on it. On my own account I was going to ask you what is the object of this Committee. Supposing they make a report and they say that all these things have been clone, and that the people are not taking caro of the river and keeping it clear, and all that—what do you want? Legislation? Mr Cowley: I take it, yes. Legislation will be required. The Deputy-Governor: You know individuals can do a great deal themselves. If you are on the river, and there is a man above von not keeping it clear you can make him keep it, clear. The law is open to you in many respects. Mr Cowley: Quite true. Still, as a matter of fact, it is found that a serious state of things has arisen, and, whilst owners on the river have tried to do their best individually, collectively it is almost impossible to move, and there are cir- cumstances arising which snake it necessary that legislation should take place. The Deputy-Governor: Does not the Land Drainage Act enable you to do what is required? Mr Cowley: It does not touch the river. Demister Kneen: Oh, yes, it does. The Deputy-Governor: I think it does. There is one remedy in that Act that touches a drain. There are two or three modes of effecting the proper drainage of ground. One is, where you don't want to have a drainage district, but where people along the banks of the river are bound to keep the river in order as regards their own property—that is, the riparian proprietors or

oding of Sulby River. TYNWALD COURT. Dee. 16, 1902. 67

occupiers. There is 0, diffieulty gelling that into operation, and there is a 1)1'01'1,11011 111 the Act that anyone living near tile river may apply 10 the Highway Board, who can appoint a sur- veyor on behalf of the proprietor:, :cul who shall see that each person keeps his portion of the river in order, and if he does not do it after notice the surveyor can do it himself and charge him \rift the eNr'llSe. Thai is in the Act, and that may be applieahle lo the river. Mr Cowley: I am advised that it is not appli- cable; that there are difficulties arising in con- nection with a river which do not arise in con- nection with mere drains and seater courses. The short account, or history, of the matter is this. if I may be allowed a minute or two---- The Deputy-Governor: I remember a great law-suit about the Silverhurn, where Sir George Drinlewater did not keep the river clean, and rhe riparian owner recovered damages against them for that. The Attorney-General: I suggest that thee* are matters which will properly come before the Committee. (Hear, hear.) We cannot decide now the effect of any particular Act, The Deputy-Governor : It. is a. question of whe- ther the Court will appoint a Committee. The Attorney-General': No harm can possibly be done by the appointment of a Committee. First of all, are we to decide that sonic existing machinery is adequate to meet the occasion. We shall be turning the petitioners out of Court al- together without allowing any proper inquiry as to the ex.act, natnn; of the damage which has been done. I know that it is always a funda- mental rule amongst lawyers that, before they give any advic.e as to what the law is. they find out minutely what the facts are--(laughter)— and then they axe enabled to judge what law was applicable. I think, myself, we are put- ting the cart before the horse if we 'attempt to decide now that there are legal provisions which are sufficient to meet. the requirements of this case. I think the proper thing would be to let the hon. member put his ease—a prima facie case—and let him get the Committee, and allow them to go minutely into the facts, and see and advise us whether they think there is sufficient legislation already. Mr Cowley: The learned Attorney-General has just stated exactly the view which is in the minds of the persons who signed this petition, and wh)

Flooding of Sulby River, 69 TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902.

have asked me to present it to the Court. The prayer of the petition is "that this honourable Court may be pleased to appoint a Committee to consider and report on the matters herein re- ferred to, and that your petitioners may have such other and future relief in the Premises as is meet," and I intend, after making a few ob- servations, to propose a motion to that effect at the close of my remarks. But, before doing so I may say it is within the knowledge of many of the members of the Court that a very serious state of things is in existence. Very serious damage indeed is inflicted upon the owners and occupiers over a very large area. I quite re- member, when I was younger, or, say, prior to 1870, that the -overflowing of the Sulby River, such as occurs now two or three times in a month. and certainly a number of times during the winter season—it was a very rare event before 1870. The Attorney-General: Does the railway QM- bankmenL affect this? Mr Cowley: Partly; and I am told that some works winch the Railway Company have clone recently has materially affected the matter, inas- much as they have put- a viaduct and pip-es; so 11:at, whenever the water is in flood-, it flows right across the country. However, I think the Court should be put in possession of one or two striking facts in connection with the matter. It really arose about 1870, when the Common Lands were drain-ed. Instead of the water being caught up in huge bogs and pits in fee mountain, they were all drained, and the result was that, in-stead of the water being given off in three, four, or five days, it now comes down in -so many hours. The second cause arose in this way. Much about the same time large works were carried on, deposit- ing an enormous quantity of debris in the river. From slate works in Sulby -Glen alone scores of thousands of tons were turned over, and the river seemed to be the natural receptacle for the debris. The same thing also occurred at the top end of Glenauldyn, where there is a very power- ful stream. and the result was that the debris was carried to the lower reaches of the river, so that the bed has become filled up, and the chan- nel is not half so wide as it was originally. The third cause has arisen in this way. When the owners of the land found the banks were giving way in many places with the rush of the water,

Flooding of Sulby River. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 69 they began planting wallows along the banks for miles, and for twenty years these willows have been growing, and not one in fifty ever being out; and the result is that the width of the channel in places is reduced from 29 feet to five. The Court will grasp at once that, if an enormous volume of water is coming down, and the channel is diminished from 20 feet to five, there must be an enormous amount of back- filling, and it washes over a large expanse of land, The Attorney-General: And extending far beyond the riparian land. Mr Cowley; Oh fax beyond; for miles. And the injury arises not only from the water where stock has been destroyed and crops damaged, but the scum left on the pasture afterwards is a serious injury. I am informed, on the best autho- rity, by men whose statement I can depend upon, that quite a number of their stock have been fatally injured by simply eating of the pasture after this deposit has 'been placed upon it. It is going on getting worse day by day. A fort- night ago, when members were coming to the Keys, there, were hundreds of acres simply like one sea; and this morning again the same thing, and it may go on the whole winter until it be- comes a matter of vital importance; and, to my mind, there is an absolute necessity, on the part of the Legislature of this country to devise some means by which the state of things which I have merely hinted at shall continue no longer, or it may possibly increase in extent and cause still greater loss. It is a, very curious cir- cumstance that since the matter has been talked about in regard to the Sulby river, one case after another has come in from other districts, and I am assured this morning on good authority that the lower reaches of the Ballaugh river are in very much the same condition, and I have no doubt that if this inquiry were extended it would be found that many other parts of the Island needed attention in the same way. The matter seems to be one of such great importance that I trust the members of the Court will be unanimous in granting the prayer of this peti- tion, and if the Committee will take the matter up and report, it will he then for the Court, to consider, and, I trust, bring• about a remedy. The resolution which I propose to submit to the Court is that

Flooding of Sulby River. 70 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. a Committee of five members of this Court be appoi•ntied to consider the matters set forth in this petition, with power to examine witnesses and employ a shorthand reporter. as may be deemed desirable, and report to this Court. As I was coming to the Court this morning a resolu- tion was handed me which was passed at a large meeting of ratepayers held at Sulby a night or two ago. It reads: At a public meeting of the electors of Ayre Sheading, held in the Sulby, on Wednee- day, December 9th, 1902, the following resolution was unanimously approved. on the motion of Mr Thomas Cowley. seconded by Mr John Cor- lett (Glanagh):—"This meeting of electors of Ayre Sheading, having heard the petition flooding of lands, etc., by Sulby River, a•pproces its provisions. and requests the members for the sheading to submit the same to the next Tynisaid Court." I beg to propose the motion. Mr Allen: I beg to second the motion. Some years ago, if I remember rightly, an application was made on this very question to the Commis- sioners of Drains, and I think we were advised then that we had no power to deal with the Sulby river. The Receiver-General : I can quite agree with Mr Allen in saying that we have no power. There is a difficulty about paying an inspector, unless he does certain works afterwards, but we mina pay an inspector just for looking over the river. I think you will see that I am right in that, that the Act only says he is to be paid in case the proprietor does not do the work and he has to do it himself. Mr Allen: I was speaking from memory. It is a number of years ago, but there was some objection. The Receiver-General : Just so ; and another question was whether maintenance of works wculd apply to the rivers. Those are the points that come before us. Deemster Kneen : I have taken some trouble to read the statements of the petition and look at the Land Drainage Act, 1875, and I am bound to say, in the absence of some explanation from the hon. member for Ayre as to why that Aot does not apply, that I cannot see the slightest necessity for the Committee to be appointed. (Hear, hear.) It will be a. mere waste of time, during which damage will be caused. It will merely mean that the work will have to be gone over again by the Highway Board, and they will

Flooding of Sul by River. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 71

fall back on the Land Drainage Act. The first statement was that the Act did not include a "river." The definition of a water course in the Act is "including all rivers, streams, drains, sewers, and passages through which water flows." The Receiver-General has referred to the main- tenance of existing works. The Act says tho maintenance of existing works "shall include cleaning, repairing, or otherwise maintaining in a good state of efficiency any water coursen," and "water course" is defined to mean a river. And then provision is made again that, on the application of any three persons to the High way Board, the Highway Board shall make in- quiry, call evidence, have surveys, and make the fullest. inquiry as to the work to be carried out, and they can carry it, out and have the cost charged on the owners of the land in proportion. I confess, to my mind, the petition is wholly un- necessary. Perhaps other members have looked into it more carefully than I have done, but, as a matter of fact., I do think, looking at the Act, it provides exactly the machinery that is wanted, and it only wants to be referred to the Highway Board. I do not think the Act requires amend- ment, but if it does it is only in some matter. I would be the last to stand in the way of any improvement, of these lands. I think these lands, not so much at the Suthy river, but the lands in Balllaugh which were mentioned, are in a deplor- able state. How it is that any three landowners cannot be found t6 present a petition to the Highway Board to put that place in order, I cannot understand. If I could hear that they had consulted any legal gentleman, and had been advised it could not be done, it would be pure intelligible. But it seams they could not spend 6s 8d in taking advice, and all they have thine is to present a petil ion to this Court, asking the Court to send a Committee. What can a Committee do? Who is to pay their expenses? That is the value of the witnesses they can get, unless they give levels, and say what; drainage is to be done? All that is provided for in the Drain- age Act. I quite admit that, if the Highway Board do it, there will be some expense con- nected with it, because the valuers will require five guineas a day. But a Committee of this Coui-t will be bound to go on the land, and trudge several miles, and pay their own expenses. I cannot see any reason for the appointment of a Committee Of this Court, unless it is a reason for delay. The proper method is to place the

Flooding of Stay River. 72 TYNWALD COURT, Dtsc. 16, 1902. matter in the hands of the Highway Board to deal with, for they have the fullest power to deal with it under this Act. Further than that, as the Governor distinctly said, it is only neces- sary that an owner who is aggrieved should take proceedings to compel men either above or below him to remove obstructions from this river. That might be a very piecemeal way of doing it, and the proper way would be to deal with it as a whole; but I have no doubt: what the result would be if an order of the Court was asked for. I think, under the Highway Act, the Highway Board have the fullest power. and, in the absence of some statement as to why they do not inter- fere, I think the wisest way would be for some of these people to join together to provide the necessary funds to go into this question. If the matter is carried through by the Highway Board, these funds will go towards defraying the expense of carrying out the work. I think the present petition will only lead to unnecessary delay. I only wish to hasten the matter on, and the wiser course will be to bring the matter before the Highway Board, who will deal with it in a summary manner. Mr J. D. Clucas: I entirely support what the Deemster has said. I ..ave had something to do with the Land Drainage Act in connection with a certain district which has been referred to, namely, Ballaugh. At the present time I have petitions in reference to that in hand in order to have the place formed into a drainage district. I would point out that, under the Act. in order to get a district made, it requires one-tenth of the owners of the area to join in a petition. -Un- fortunately, as the Deemeter has said, most of these owners—even to. the small portion of one-tenth—are so afraid of a charge of is or 2s being put on the land. ,eat they are rather against joining in putting a petition in force. Deemster Kneen : That is the vault of the die- triot. Mr J. D. Clucas : I certainly agree with the Deemster, from my knowledge of the Sulby river, and I do not see why it should be in any different position to the Lien and Collane drains. They are water courses in the same way under the Act. Even if a Committee of this Court went and sat on Hie thing., it would only mean that they would refer it io the Highway Beard ; the petitioners would have to produce a. plan of their district area. and it would have to be all gone through again. Besides, it is placing an

Flooding of Sulby River. TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902. 73

obligation on members of this Court which should not be placed upon them. I think, seeing that members who have moved in this matter are mem_ bers of the Highway Board, they surely ought to know their way about, and it seems to me that they don't know the working of the Land Drain- age Act, and they don't cut, a very good figure in coming before the Court as they do. Mr Allen : it is very seldom we get an applica- tion for drainage, and we are a bit rusty. Sev- eral applications have been made to the High- way Board, but they have been withdrawn before they actually came before the Board. The Receiver-General : I am sure there have been two or three, especially that at Ballaugh, to which we wont. That has been brought be- fore us two or three times, but there is no power in the Act under which you can recover money to pay an inspector before the work is done. He has to go and get all the men to come down and do the work. If they do it, then he gets no pay; if they don't do it, and he walks in, he gets paid for the work. So that as we, as a Board, cannot get an inspector, we have had on various oc- casions to appoint a man who will take it and look after it. Ma- J. D. Mums: There is an inspector of the Lhen drain. The Receiver-Genevd That is a. different matter. The Lord Bishop: I intend to vote for the resolution of the hon. member for Ayre. I do so, I confess, from rather selfish motives. I am a landowner in the northern. part of the Island, as well as the gentleman to IV OOM the hon. member has referred. I have lived on the Island for 11 years, and have consulted legal gentlemen on the question of drainage. I have been told that there are most elaborate laws on the question of drainage, but the drainage is not effected. Year after year has passed by, and what the hon. member has referred to takes place. Although we are told that drainage can be effected, yet when the time comes, all methods hitherto em- ployed' have failed. I am speaking more particu- larly of land which I and the lion. member for Bi .hen :hold in the Curraghs of Ballaugh. The Deemster has told us that the laws are _per- fectly admirable, but I am not a great lawyer like the Deemster, and my mind is not sufficiently clear yet to see how these laws are to be acted on. I am in great hopes, if you have a Com-

Flooding of Stay River. 74 TYNWALD COURT, Dec, 16. 1902.

mittee to look after the matter, they will bring to light some means by which drainage may be effeoted. I am quite certain it must be under- taken if any of the recommendations of the Commission which sat on the question of agri- culture are to be given effect to. It is all very well for the landowners to he told that the laws are already perfect. To my mind, nobody can put them in force. I sincerely hope, if we do appoint a Committee to-day, we shall see more clearly in the future how we shall take the action which many of us require. I think we have had sufficient said to us to show there is a strong prim• a faoie ease for a Committee. I would only say one thing more—the hon. member would strengthen his position if he told us how many signed this petition. It is a reasonable and pro- per one, and if in his reply he states that it is largely signed, it will give additional weight to it. I do not think we ought to spend the after- noon in discussing what powers there are and how they can be put. in operation; but let us appoint a Committee. Let them look into the matter, and make its practical recommendations, and let us get. clone what seems very desirable in connection with the allegations that have been made. Mr Crennell: I should like, in a very few words, to support the motion which has been made. I entirely follow his Lordship in his re- marks. To practical men—I do not mean men with legal mind—it seems perfectly appar- ent that the Act has signally failed. We are told the Act has been in existence for 25 or 28 years, but in that time the state of affairs has gone materially worse, and if the appointment of a Committee will do anything to remedy this state of affairs, surely this Court will not hesitate to grant it. I hope this resolution will be carried. Mr Laughton : I am not well versed in this question of drainage, but I have been very much impressed by what Honour Deemster Kneen has said. He tells us he has taken great care to investigate the Act, and see how far the Highway Board have power in this matter. He tells us they have full power if application is made to them ; the provisions of the Act are sufficient to enable them to do away with the nuisance, because we cannot help calling it a nuisance. I have such confidence in his Honour, and in his statement that he has thoroughly investigated

Flooding of Sully River. TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902. 75 the matter, as to believe that it is so, that the Committee of Highways have powers under the Acts to remedy tie evils which are complained of. (Hear, hear.) Now, what is the answer to that? One of the members of the Highway Board admits that they have had applications, but no sooner were the applications made than they were withdrawn. Therefore, those cases have not been tried. We have another statement made by an lion. member—I think the hon. member for Rushen—that the people were so afraid of spending a shilling that they would not apply for the ordinary remedies which the law provides. Is that a reason why they should come to impose almost a penalty on the Court here? The remedy is there, the learned Deemster tells us, and I am perfectly certain of it. We hay. all absolute confidence in the learned Deemster; ho has looked up the Act, he finds the remedy there, and all that is to be done is to apply to the Committee of Highways. But applications have been made—I repeat the statement of one of the members of the Highway Board—and, in- stead of trying the effect of those applications, the people have withdrawn them, and, therefore, the Committee of Highways have never had the chance of trying them at all. Why? Because, to repeat again, the people are so afraid to spend a shilling they will not go on, and I believe it. They are so afraid of a shilling that they don't repeat the application, and then they come to the Tynwald Court, who, they think, are widows and orphans—(laughter)—and won't be afraid of spending a shilling, and, therefore, they can get their lands drained for nothing. I must say, whilst sympathising most cordially with this want of drainage, of which I have taken cognisance myself—I have seen the overflowing waters, not only in the places complaned of, but in the neighbourhood of Peel. to a disastrous extent. I feel it, and for years I have tried to do something to remedy it; but now, I think, we have come to the discussion of the point—the landowners must be referred to the Acts, and told they have only to apply to the Committee of Highways. Let them apply, and if they find then they have no remedy, that will be the time to come to the Tynwald Court and ask for assistance. But if they find, on the other hand, that the Committee of Highways answer their application, and are willing to help them, that is all that is required. (Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General : I hope the Court will

Flooding of Suiby River. 76 TYNWALD -COURT, Dec: 16, 1902. not accept the off-hand opinion offered by Demi- ster Kneen in the absolute manner contended for by the hon. and learned member for Peel. I am sure his Honour would be the last man in the world to wish to have that importance at- tached to his expression. I am sure, if he was sitting in his Court, many hours would pass over—at any rate a considerable period would be spent in considering the meaning of the clause before he would give any opinion upon it, and an opinion expressed in this way, without very great consideration of the clauses, and also a know- ledge of the facts upon which -the-clauses are to bear, is not of very great value from a lawyer's standpoint. Although he referred to the inter- pretation clause, and so forth, he did not give us anything like the exact nature of the machin- ery that would be set in motion, and how it would accomplish the purpose which the hon. member who presented the petition has in view. Deemster Kneen : It is in the Act.. The Attorney-General: But to shut out the Committee on the ground that Rome has spoken, therefore not a word more is to be said—I think his Honour is exaggerating the effect of the words used. Now, the non, and learned member for Peel has added considerably to the amenities of the debate, as he usually does, and suggests that they want to throw the cost of conducting this inquiry on the Tynwald Court. I cannot see that there can be any foundation for an im- putation or suggestion of that kind. No funds are to be voted to that Committee. Any ex- penses that are incurred will have to be in- curred entirely by the promoters of the move- ment, by those who supported the petition, and so forth. They cannot get the benefit of any funds belonging to this ..oust. I think the hon. and learned member for Peel comes sometimes to this Court with local grievanoes, and on these occasions dips very deeply into the pockets of the Tynwald Court, but on these occasions does not always succeed in getting out as much as he expects. That is because, like the boy who puts his hand in the jar, he fills his hand so full that he cannot get it out. The Deputy.Governor : I thought his objection was that it was throwing expense on the inch- vidual members of the Court who would form this Commit tee. The Attorney-General: Very well, that is only as far as the time occupied in conducting the Flooding of Sutby River. TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 77

inquiry. I do say again I have been looking through the Act to the hest of my capacity during this interval, and I would be very sorry to pronounce with any certainty that it. would meet such a case as I understand this to be. Surely the best course is to give ihe him. mem- ber his Commitee—it need not be five, let it be three, so as to economise the wear and tear on behalf of members of this Court. Let him have this Committee, and let, them investigate the facts. If there is existing legislation, we can deal with it. If not, the Committee will be able to shadow forth the sort of legislation which will be necessary. I myself feel very strongly the force of the argument used by the hon. mem- ber for Michael, that. so far as practical appli- cation is COITeelil this Act has been an un- doubted failure. No one has yet succeeded. Whether they have tried properly or hard enough I cannot say, but Ill)-ono has yet succeeded in putting it into operation, and I have a very strong suspicion that when you come to deal with individual cases, it is then you will find there is something in Act which makes it inapplicable and unworkable. I know in one case I was consulted in by the Lord Bishop with reference to this Act, it was practically impossible ever to get it in working order. The difficulties about who are liable to contribute, who would form the district, who are the people to be bene- fited, and all that sort of thing—there was an a mesuit; of vagueness which certainly in one case made it impossible to apply the Act. I do sub- mit there can be no injury done, except whatever injury may he suffered by the members who have to serve on this Committee to investigate the matter. The Receiver-General: I may say the Lhen drain was made under this AO. Mr J. T. Cowell : The matter has taken up a very great deal of time. I did expect, when the learned Attorney-General rose and told us that Rome had spoken and nothing more was to he said—I listened attentively to hear what the other Rome let fall. But whether it is that the Attorney-General feels that because there is no fee there ought to be no opinion, he sat down, leasing it where it was before. The matter puts itself to me in this way. I am told, on the one hand, that this Act has been a total failure. That is denied by others. I am told by my learned friend, Mr Clucas, that there have been

Flodclting of Sullby River. 73 TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902. cases where this Act has been put into operation and has been a Ftic ; and ii parities me the' the persons aggrieved al the pre,sent moment ought first to approach the Highway Board, and if they fail there then they have their remedy in this Court. It seems to me it is putting the cart before the horse entirely to come here first. The other question which strikes one is, we are told emphatically, that a. remedy could be pro- vided for the question raised by the Lord Bishop, but that, it is impossible to get. a. small fraction of land owners in the district, even one-tenth, to support it, because they think it means an extra rate on tiveir lands. That is the only reason given why his lordship has failed in this matter. If that is the case, is this Court to be used to give land owners a remedy Which is in their own hands) I deny it, and I say the time has not come when expense should fall on the country— that the expense Should fall in the first instance on the persons themselves. (Hear, hear.) I trust the Court- will not listen to the petition at the present moment. While we have full sym- pathy with the aggrieved persons, we feel that they have a remedy which Hwy have not tried to take advantage of, and when that fails I shall be glad to help them. Mr Kerruish: I have very great pleasure in supporting the motion that the prayer of the - petition be granted. I have known frequently that the persons who are suffering in this matter have sought and obtained legal opinions as to how best to go about getting this evil remedied, .and invariably the decision they have had is that the Act in a sense is unworkable. I am sure, if the prayer of the petition is 'granted, and this Committee is appointed the result will be that whatever is deficient in the Act, will be remedied, and it will be made applicable and workable, at that the suffering persona in the district, -when inundations -take place, will get relief. Any person travelling in the Isle of Man to-day, seeing the meadow's flooded in the way they are, must come to the conclusion that the state of things should be relieved and remedied, and a way should be found to do away with this unsatisfac. tory state of things. Mr W. Goldsmith: I have listened very atten- tively to the debate. At first I rather leaned to- wards the opinion expressed that they should have gone to the Highway 'Committee at first.

Flooding of Sulby River, TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16. 1902. 79

But, after listening to his Hon-our the Deemster, I think differently. His Honour has turned my mind in favour if the motion. If there is all this power in the Act, Wily has it not been exer- cised; why should these grievances continue so eXj.i 1-, as is admitted all round': (Inc member of the Court says it is because the parties object to the expense. Well, is this a grievance simply from the land owners' point of view, Is it to the interests of the country that this should ba seen to? The ory is that people are leaving the ocunt ry ; it is not populated as it once was. You have a lot of land which is not properly utilised, This bad, insufficient drainage is a factor which ought to be taken into consideration, and the fact, that the Highway Board, under the present Act, either have not a remedy or do not apply the remedy, is a prima facie case why there should be an inquiry made. The Receiver-General has told us that the inspector could not be paid. I Thought. it was very lame—that the funds of the ecuntry could not stand the cost of an inquiry This, along with some other things which have transpired, shows that the Board have been following too narrow a policy and standing too far on a question of expending a few pounds in a thing of Ibis kind. Mr Cowley : I shoidd like to say a word or two in reply. Dealing first with the legal poi n t s, I feel as if we were in the position of having doctors differing. I hope the benefit, of the doubt will be given to the Committee proposed in the motion which I ha ir, the honour to put before the Court. I may state, as a fact within my know- ledge, that legal opinion has been taken by owners who have bean sufferers, and they have been informed that the remedy is not so easy as his Honour Deemster Kneen would lead us to think. I would be only too pleased if it: were. Bet, the matter has been considered very care- fully, and I can assure the Court it was felt' that DO means will be satisfaotory. until the Act is amended. Deemster Kneen : In what respect? In re- lieving the owners? Mr Cowley : Yes. I was going to paint out that it has been manifest from the debate that the Act has been a failure. Only one ditch or watercourse has been dealt with under the Aot. The Deputy-Governor: No. I know of one in my own neighbourhood.

Plodding of Sullby River. 80 TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902.

Mr Cowley: Only one was named. The Deputy-Governor : I am not denying that ; but to say there is only one is not correct. Mr Cowley: I am quite ready to correct that statement. I only know of one in the north of the Isle of Man. The position is this, and I would like the Court to specially recognise this --that although the Act is in operation it is a Permissive, Act. Until a certain number of land owners have agreed to present a petition to the Highway Board the state of things must go on to doomsday. I Lave taken considerable interest in the petition for something like four years now relating to the watercourses in Ballaugh in tl3 Curraghs, and I assure the Court that several other gentleman have also felt, acutely on the Point, and es's have tried in every way to have a petition in operation, and for four years the work has been made positively valueless unless the. effort coming on now will result in something being done. If there is a serious state of things like this in existence, and the fact has proved to be unanswerable, surely I have made out a case for a Committee of this Court to be ap- pointed in the way the petition prays. We are gratified with the sympathy of hon. members who have not seen their way to go the full length with us. I claim the lion, member for Peel has really made out a ease for the Committee. He admits, in the strongest. language he can make use of, that a disastrous state of things prevails in his district, and I cannel, understand why lie does not support the motion. I must confess that though 'hon. members have expressed their full sympathy with the :measure, it seems to me it is a curious way of showing your sympathy to kick us downstairs. I hope that is not to be the way in which the Court will deal with us in a matter which i can assure the Court is of the utmost importance, and I trust that the motion v~ill be carried by a. large majority. Mr Cadman rose to speak, but was ruled out of order. The Deputy-Governor in putting the motion, said he would leave out the words as to the em- ployment of a reporter, as he thought that should he left to the Committee Committeesleaving done it on several cases and the expenses having been allowed. Mr Cowley: I call for a division.

Plodding of Staby River. TYNWALD CODA', Dec. 16, 1902. 81

The Deputy-Governor: I was going to say Hie "Ayes'' had it. (Laughter.) Mr Laughton : In that ease I should have called for a division. The voting in ihe Keys was as follows :—For : Messrs Quayle, Kitto, Creating Crentiell, Allen, Ccwley, Kerruish, Corlett, Maitland, Quinn, Kermode, AV. Goldsmith. Nlylehroest, and the Speaker-14. Again4 : Messrs Cadman, Hut- chinson J. D. Chinas. Laughlin:, Cowell, J. Goldsmith, and R. Clucas,-7.--Motion carried in the Keys. The Deputy-Governor : The motion was lost in the Council. The motion, therefore,

THE HIGHWAY BOARD.—RESIGNATION OF THE RECEIVER-GENERAL AND MR ALLEN. The Deputy-Governor I have to lay before the Court the resignation of two members of the Highway Board. One is the Receiver- General, and the other Mr Allen. I think, my- self there is some feeling in the House of Keys against. ona mcmhor holding ico many offices at one time. I have these two resignations. The Receiver-General, who was received with applause, said : Perhaps your Excellency would allow me to say a. few words. I wish, first of all, to thank the Board for the confidence they have had in me during Ihe time that is past. I may say it is with great regret that I am leaving the Highway Board. I have always been fond of the work, and never found it difficult, and it is not at all because I find the work irksome that I am leaving, and still less is it from fear of the criticisms that have lately appeared. We do not fear theni. I have been for 20 years on the board, and I am always ready to listen to them on every occasion. The reason of my re- signation is this, that I find I ain getting on in years, and I cannot hide from myself that I will not be able to go about: i he roads as much as I used to do, or as much as I think I ought to do in my position. And, further, there are a good many changes must come in the ordinary course of things in the Highway Board, and they will be much better earned out by younger men, fresh to the work. I may say, as your Excel- lency has mentioned, that I have been 20 years

Highway Board.—Two Resignations. 82 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902.

upon the Board. I was noticing the other day that the first of the accounts which I signekl wae in 1.891. In 1882 T signed again, and, in that year, our income was £6,200, and our debt was £3,325, to the Bank, and £1.448 in an over- draft at the Bank, altogether £7,773, so that you see in those days we were not anything like so well off as we are. in 'the present day. That year we ran in dolt £613, and the following year it was £83, which I find that I signed as chair- man, and from that year I have always been chairman. In that year 1:he income of the High- way Board rose to £6,709, that was £500 more. That was largely due to the trouble the late Decmster Gill took in going over all the roads on the Island, and that year we had £158 to the good. We then made up our minds there was no use applying to the Government for any money, and we decided to get out of debt as quickly as we could. We paid the whole of that off, and last year the income of the Highway Board was £8,765, and we hail in hand £922. New, I mutt, in justice to these who are coming after me, tell the Court that the expenditure for the future will be much greater. We have the steam rollers here now, and they have come to stay, but they are a very heavy expenditure to the country. And not only are they an ex- pense, but they get the Highway Board hauled over the coals very much oftener, because now people take every opportunity of calling atten- tion to where new stones are required. For- merly they did not like the stones, and were not so particular about calling attention to it, Another thing I would like to say for the bene- fit of the geople who cane after me is, that they will have to apply to the Court for leave to overdraw their account for from £1,500 to £2,000. You sea, none of our money comes in until the list of April, and really we don't get much until the 12th of May. We have to run the most expensive part of the year, from the 12th November to the 121:11 May, with no money ooming in at all, so that we have had, of late years, an overdraft, ever since the failure of Dumbell's Bank. I don't think there is any- thing I need say more than that I believe the roads were never in better order than they are at the preeent moment. Here is an article I took from the " Cyclist." The cyolist does not generally praise roads. but it says "Touring in the Isle of Alan has' been a very pleasant occupation, owing to the uniformly--

Highway Board.—Two Resignations. TYNWALD C01 IZT. Dce. 10, 1902. 93

Mr Cowell: Does he name the neiglihourhool of Douglas? The Receiver-General: No, he doesn't ; imi I suppose there are not, many cyclists who go about without coming near Ilionglas. Mr Laughton: Very few people come to Dou- glas nowadays. (Laughter.) Mr Quinc: I am sure that C.:lot:el Anderson deserves very great thanks for his work during the time he has acted as :Chairman of the High- way Board. I have during the last few years come in contact with him. and I never saw a man more anxious to do his very best for the country, and I am sure lie deserves very great thanks from the Court for the manner he has acted during the time he his been chairman of the Highway Board. The Deputy-Governor: W 11 the hon. member move that as a motion? Mr Quine: Yes; I move that as a vote of thanks. Deemster Kneen : I had intended moving a similar resolution myself, and I should like to be allowed to second this vote, and to endorse what has been said of the efficient manner in which Cot Anderson Las discharged his duties as chairman of the Highway Board. I think that the least we can do is to offer him our sin- cerest thanks. iWe all know that no public ser- vant of the country hiss ioarvid us better during a period of twenty }-car; than the Receiver-Gen- eral has done, and I don't think we will e-, er find the man who will gi vo I hi' sans,' lime a tt ention to the work. As regards complain is. complaint; will be made of the roads as coin. plait-as will be made of the weitther--(laughter)— but I do say speaking from my own experience and from remarks which_ I ha ve heard from others who are acquainted rod is acro,-; the wider_ considering the fonds at their ,::11 the way Board have discharged their duties in a moA excellent way, and I Ihink on the whole we should he fully satisfied with the work they have done. That work has been largely due to th,,i painstaking care of the Receiver-General, and I am sure the Court will tempt Itis iesigna- tion with the greatest regret, and tender its heartfelt thanks fol his honourable services of the past twenty years (Hear, hear.)

Ilighrvay Board.—Two Resignations. 84 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902.

The Speaker : I feel sure that every member of the Court who has 'had the pleasure of being associated in public work with the Receiver-Gem tral will acknowledge that he is one of the most diligent and faithful public servants this Island has ever had. (Hear, hear.) The motion was carried with applause. The Receiver-General, who was received with applause, said: From my heart, I thank you. The Deputy-Governor : The next question, I suppose, is that Mr Allen's resignation be ac- cepted. Mr Allen : I beg to thank you for the very kind support you have accorded to me in appoint- ing me from year to year and from term to term. I think from 1886 or 1887 I have been a member of the Highway Board. While there I have en- deavoured to do my duty, and I have had very groat pleasure in assisting at the Board.. As Col. Anderson has said, I think you will find the con- dition of things in the Isle of Man very different to what it was when I joined the Board. When I joined there was a matter of £3,000 of debt. We worked that down without calling on the Tynwald Court for help, and, in addition to that, we kept up the roads. I think the conditions were very different then to what they are now. We did not apply to the country roads as much macadam es we do now, and there. is where the great cost occurs—in maintaining the roads be- tween the different towns of the Island. I hope my resignation will be accepted to-day. I have always been very 'happy on the Board, and it is with some regret that I resign my membership. The Lord Bishop: I should like to propose, in connection with the resignation of Mr Allen, that the best thanks of the Court be given to him also for his services to the Board. May I just say in proposing that resolution, (hat a gentle- man was staying with ma only the oilier day. who spent a great deal of his time in motoring about England, and, therefore, has a practical knowledge of the roads' in the United Kingdom, and he remarked to me, having :eft his motor on the other side, that he only wished he had brought it over in order that he might have the satisfaction of driving it on the admirable roads which he saw on this Island. (Hear, hear.) That was the view he took, and I am sure. it is the

Highway Board'.—Two Resignations TYNWALD COURT', Dec. 16, 1902. 85

view of every member of this Court. Speaking generally an•d broadly, I think I have never seen better roads than I have seen in this Island; and when two gentlemen who have been so long con. fleeted with them come before this Court, and, for the reasons put before us are resigning, think the least we can do is to tender them our heartiest thanks. Mr Quine: I have very great pleasure in sec- onding that. I have been acquainted with Mr Allen for a number of years. I would not stand second to any man in giving attention to what is done on the roads of this Island. My business has brought me on the roads all over the Island on various occasions. I have taken particular mtics, and have compared them with roads in the United Kingdom. I won't say much about the roads near Douglas, but in other parts of the Island the roads are kept in splendid repair. I have been agitating to get footpaths put down in other parts of the Island, and I have frequently come in oontadt with Mr Allen, and I have never met any man more anxious to do everything he could for the roads. The motion was carried unanimously.

HIGHWAY BOARD.—NOMINATIONS FOR THE TWO VACANCIES. Nominations were then taken for two new mem- bers of the Board. Mr CreBin proposed his Honour Deemster Kneen, and Mr Quine seconded the nomination. Mr J. J. Goldsmith proposed Mr W. J. Ker- mode, and said: lie is not a novice in road- making. He was a member of the Douglas Town Commissioners for many years, and served on the Highways Committee, so that he is very well acquainted with the keeping of highroads in repair. I might also say that Douglas has no representation on the Highway Board, although it pays about ono-third of the rates. I think that is a .taite of affairs which ought to be remedied by the appointment of Mr Kermode. Mr H. Cluoas seconded. Mr Cadman proposed Mr Hutchinson, and Capt. Kitto seconded. Mr Mylohreest proposed Mr D. Maitland, but it was not seconded. Mr J. D. einem asked the names of the pre-

Highway Board.—Two Vacancies. 86 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902.

sent Highway Board, and the Receiver-General said it consisted of Messrs Cadman, Cronin, Crennell, Qua.Itrough, and Cowley. ' Mr Laughton: I notice there is no member for Peel. (Laughter.) Dcemster Kneen: I think the Court must be in a. joking humour this afternoon in nominating me as a member of the Highway Board—("No no")—because anyone more unsuited for the post doeo not occupy a seat in the Court. To begin with, I don't think it desirable that a judge should be on the Board, and particularly in a matter of looking after drainage areas it would be most undesirable that a judge should be a member of the Board. Besides I don't know that I have any qualifications for the post. I am a most extravagant man ; I shall spend far more than the Receiver-General. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I am not aware of a single qualifica- tion I possess. My rates are not very serious, and, whilst it has been the custom to appoint a member of the Council on this Board, it is not necessary—it is not necessary that a man should even be a member of the Court—and if it were, there is my brother Deemster, who is a large landed proprietor, and who would make a very excellent member. (Laughter, and "He is a judge.") Then, again, if Deemster Moore does not suit we have Mr Quine, who has evidently studied the question of road-making long before he became a member of the House; and there is another member of the House, a man who occupies a very good position in the Court, and a man in whom the Court has perfect confidence --Mr J. D. Clucas—a man who is most practical and economical, and who would make a very excellent member of the Board. I do not wish to say I will not act on any Committee of the Court, but I do hope my proposer and seconder will withdraw my name—("No, no")—because I really feel I am not at all a suitable member. There arc other members of the Council, younger mom or as young, who don't occupy any perma- nent position of this kind. I am a member of the Lccal Government Board, and I daresay I 113 ve as nu work as my brother members on. the judicial bcmch. Again, I do ask my proposer and seconder to withdraw my name. Tho m y-t ;yernor : Tn ihismatter, I might s-y that if the I), :sqnsier', name is moved and seconded I must. pct it to the Court; but it is

:Highway Board.--Two Vacancies. TYNWALD CU RT. Dec. 16, 1902. 87 nut a C.ommittee, and if he does not wish to serve he must say so, and I will strike his name nfl. lt :.,ays 11.2 declines to act, I hill strik a it off. Mr Maitland: I did not hear him say he de- clined to act. It is the strongest wish of the Keys, I know tint he should be on the Board. (Hear, 'hear.) We feel he is a strong man, and he is just the man to succeed the late man—the Receiver-General. lie is a men wo should all like to see in the position. Mr Laughton : I don't think I understood him to say' e declined to act, or if he did we should accede. But I do agree with what the lion. member has just said, that he is a strong man, and a man in whom we have all perfect confi- dence, and, as 1 understand the future progress of the Highway Riard will be is matter of some difficulty—I don't want to go into details, but wo know the Highway Board requires strong management and enlightened views to progress, and I don't know any man in this Court who occupies a position which gives us confidence in him so well as the Dcemster. So far as I am concerned, if he does not positively decline to act, I should press for the appointment of his Honour to the post. (Hear, hear.) Poetaster Bucca : I feel that I should not posi- tits ly decline. (Hear, lier.1 I thin!;, pgrliaps, the duty is east upon ma by virtue of my office to take a certain share of the public work, but I do feel that, perhaps, a greater proportion is cast upon me than there ought to be. Yet if it is the wish of the Court I will act. (Hear, hear.) The Deemster Kneen was then unanimously elect ed. Mr Cowell: Before a vote is taken, I would like to say a word on the matter of the appoint- ment of Mr Kormode. It will be in the recollec- tion of members of the House that not very long ago two important towns in the Island were re- presented on the Highway Board. Mr Mylrea and Mr J. H. Cowell were both members of the Board at one and the samo time. Just now neither Douglas nor the sheading which is closely connected with it has a representative. Mr Maitland We will remedy that; but not in the way my hon. friend suggests. Mr Cowell: From the last report of the High- way Board I find the amount of the contribution

Highway Board.—Two 'Vacancies. 88 TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902 towards the highways which comes from the town of Douglas. In the first place, the Board re- ceived from fines £44 17s 9d, and Douglas briNs £33 15s, or three-fourths of the whole. From liquor licences the whole is £1,993 18s 6d, and from Douglas liquor licences is taken £1,338 lls 6d, or two-thirds of the whole. From the dog and carriage licences the suns of £3,563 10s- 3d is received and Douglas contributes £1,070 18s 3d, Onchan £247, and Braddan £220, a total of £1.537, or over two-fifths of the whole amount. The total amount of rates on the Island is £2,438 10iri 2d, and (Indian pays £312, and Braddan £202, a total from the two parishes of £514, or one-fifth of the whole rates of the Island. Now, what is the fact? At ihe present time on this Beard we have a gentleman recently elected from the south, and I say rightly selected, but he was elected to take the place of a town member—Mr J. R. Cowell. (-No. Mr Fisher.") Mr Fisher, was it Well then, Mr Crain was put in Mr Cowell's place. (Mr Crellin: Yes.) What I would say in reference to Mr Kermode's claims is this, and I. am sure the only intention of the Court is to elect gentlemen that are qualified for the post they are to fill, and I am sure the mem- bers of the Court. will not vote against a man because he is a representative of a town simply. That cught not to weigh with them. Now, Mr Cowley is a representative of the north of the Island. Mr Crain also represents a northern constituency. Mr Cadman represents the middle districts. (Question.) He is one of the most useful men we have on the Board—(hear, hear)— but he represents the Peel district, and he lives in Mairown. (Mr Kerruish: Douglas.) He has a seat in this House outside the district of Dou- glas, and, therefore, I take it we have not a re- presentative. As Mr Goldsmith has pointed out, Mr Kermod-e was for years a member of the old Board of Town Commissioners, and for a con- siderable time was chairman 6f the Committee which has charge of the sewers and roads of this ti wit ; and I think I am only fair in saying that, during his term of office, the first steam roller was brought into the Island, and was used in the making of roads and led to an improvement for which we are largely indebted to him; in fact, that; wa.s such a novelty in Douglas chat I believe that for a considerable time afterwards it was christened as "Kermode's baby." (Laugfhter.)

Highway Board.—Two Vacancies. 'ITN-WALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902. 89

So that he was at all events one of those who were the pioneers in a forward movement in road-making. lie is a man who understands the matter. He has been a member of the House longer than the other member proposed, and Mr Kermode i.e not a. member of any other Commit- tee of the House, and the other member proposed is 7 and I think 1 have made a strong case to the Court to show that if Mr Kiermodo is elected, with his qualifications, not only will you be electing a man who is well fitted for the post, but, in a certain sense, a. grievance which exists in regard to that Board will be removed. Mr Maitland : 'rho member who has juet sat down has anade such a strong appeal on behalf of his colleague, that 1 feel disposed to make a few remarks with regard to the other member Proposed. In the first place, I don't think it is a matter as between any districts in the Isle of Man. What see want is the individual who will ha the most serviceable on the Board, and who will be able to devote more time to the duties of the post. I ask you candidly whether Mr Hutchinson, who knocks about the country a great deal, is not more likely to he a useful member than the other gentleman, who spends a great deal of his time in Victoria-street? It is not a matter of what part a man represents. I ask you to vote for the man who is best qualified for the Board, and has most time to devote to the duties of the position. The Deputy-Governor said he had heard Mr Maitland's name proposed. Mr Maitland said that was so, but it had not been seconded, and he was glad of it. Mr Laughton : Really it is a very difficult thing to say whom I will vote for. I hold them both in high esteem. I agree also it is not a matter of districts. If I thought that either of these districts would vote in favour of their own dis- trict simply, I would not vote for such a man, nor should I have confidence in him. I take it that each member of the Highway Board will do his duty as a member of the Highway Board; not because he belongs to a certain district, but do his duty fairly as a member of the Board. He is a trustee for the public. I have great con- Hence in Mr Kermode that he would act from a high motive; I have equal confidence in Mr Hutchinson that he would do the same; and if

Highway Board.—Two Vacancies. 91 TYNWALD COURT, Dcc. 16, 1902.

the Court would give me leave, I would vote for both of them. (Laughter.) A ballot was taken in the Keys on the names of Messrs Kermode and Hutchinson, and the Speaker declared the voting to be equal. There were 20 members voted. After conferring with the Deputy-Governor, the Speaker asked: What is the wish of the House to be done under the circumstances? We can put it to the vote again if you think that will be any relief ; or we can decide on that one of the two hon. members who has been selected by the Council. Mr Maitland: Mr Hutchinson, one of the members proposed, withdrew before the voting. If the other member will do the same and with- draw, it would alter the balance of voting. Mr Cowell : That is presuming he voted for himself. Mr Maitland: I don't say he voted for himself. It would alter the balance of voting. The Attorney-General: Why should he not vote for himself? Mr Kerruish: Supposing the matter was ad- journed until we had a full House. There would be no time lost, as there would be six members to go on, and we could adjourn it to the next Tynwald Court. My colleague has just gone home, and if one vote was cast the balance would be altered. Mr J. J. Goldsmith: Under these circumstan- ces I have no objection to it being adjourned. We, too, have members who have gone. Mr Cowley seconded that the matter be ad- journed. The Deputy-Governor : All that has been done Crops. excepting that I he nomin.a it on stands.

VOTERS' LISTS. The next item on the agenda was:— 'to appoint a Committee to examine the ac- counts of expenses incurred in forming and re- vising the lists of voters under the House of Keys Election Acts for the year ended 30th September, 1902. Deemster Kneen: I have been asked to move that resolution, became I think on several oc- casions lately I have inured a similar resolution. I may just state that the matter is urgent. Tho payments are clue since the 30th September last, and it is probable that some time may elapse before we have another Tynwald Court. The

Voters' List. TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902. 91

Government authorities are most anxious that this matter be got through lo-day. The Com- mittee has usually consisted of Mr J. D. Clucas, Mr Maitland, and myself, and I may say that, in anticipation of that Committee being re-ap- pointed, we have gone through the costs, and are ready at any moment to present our report, so that if we are appointed We shall be ready in a few minutes to relurn our report. I move the resolution, and that the Committee consist of the three members I have named. Mr Laughton seconded. Carried.

PUBLIC AUDITORS. Mr Cowell moved:— That Messrs W. R. Walker and Co. be ap- pointed to audit the following accounts, and that their remuneration be fixed at; £196 7s, pay- able in the proportions set opposite The same respectively, viz.: — Borough of Douglas, including tram- way accounts, for year to 31st March, 1903 S284 0 0 Commissioners of— Ramsey, for year to 31st March, 1903 12 12 1 Oastletown, do. 4 4 1 Peel, do. 4 4 0 Port :Erin do. 4 4 0 Port 6t. Mary, 2 2 0 Tiustsw of Coonmm Lauds,l , for year to 12th November. 1902 2 5 0 The Assessment: Point. for year to 12th May, 1903 2 12 6 The Asylums Board (including Home for the Poor). for year to 31st March, 1903 30 10 0 Board of Guardians—Poor Relief dis- trict of Douglas, for year to 31st March. 1903 5 5 0 Ramsey, do. 3 3 0 Gagletown, do. 1111 6 T,ezayre, Malew (do4) . 1 11 6 Lonah. do. German. do. 1 11 6 Ballaugb, do. 111 6 Patri ck. 1 11 6 The Highway Board, for year to 12th November. 1902 25 0 0 Advertising Committee, for year to 31st December, 1902 5 5 0 £196 7 0 Mr Cowell said: The only alteration made there is in the first item, which has been increased by the tramway accounts being added, and a sum of 25 guineas has been arranged to be paid for that, and, owing to an increase, in the work, which has entailed extra labour, the sum has been also increased by 10 guineas. With lids excep- tion, the amount is the same as previously, and

Public Auditors. 92 TYNWALD COURT, Dec. 16, 1902.

I have to move that that resolution pass. Mr W. Goldsmith seconded. Carried.

PUBLICATION OF THE DEBATES. Deemster Kneen: I have been asked to move the resolution which stands in my name:— That a Committee of this Court be appointed b consider and report as to the publication, in took form, of the debates of the Legislature, and the financial arrangements connected there- with. It will be within i he recollection of the Court, the Deemsier added, that, eome two years ago, a Committee of the Court was appointed, and they reported in favour of an arrange- ment, which was adopted by t he Court, for the publication of these debates. That was only to be 'in operation for two years, and I understand that term has expired, or is about to expire, and that some further arrangement should be made. The publisher informs me that the Committee ought to be empowered to come to some arrangement at once. I don't know what proposal he has to make, and I think it will be the more convenient course that the former Com- mittee should be re-appointed. I beg to move the resolution. Mr J. D. Chung seconded. Mr W. Goldsmith: It is very unfortunate that this business should be brought forward in this hurried fashion a second time. It was done in a great hurry on the last occasion the contract had expired, and the report came at the con- clusion of the Tynwald Court, and there was practically no option but to take it or leave it; and we are in the same position now. I don't thing it is a proper way of conducting the busi- ness of the country. There ought to be ample time, so that the matter might be looked into fully. I think the element of competition should come into this matter; there should be some opportunity given to the whole trade of the country to tender for business of this sort. I am not saying it is not done efficiently, and I am not saying it is not done economically; but, being public business, the element of competi- tion should come in. The Deputy-Governor The objection seems to be as to those who are to do the work, and not to the appointment of a Committee. Mr W. Goldsmith: Oh, dear! no That arises

Publication of the Debates. TYNWALD COURT, Dee. 16, 1902. 93

on the question of the appointment of a COM- mi t t ee, and mainly on the late hour it has been brought forward. I think there ought to be some explanation why we are hurried in this matter. Surely we have plenty of officials, and they are wel encugh paid, and the business of the country should not be hurried on in this un- businesslike fashion. Deemster Kneen Of course, I do not know of any special reason why there should be any great urgency about this, except the conveni- ence of the Court. All that I ask to-day is to appoint a Committee to consider the matter. When that Committee should report I am not able to say, but I should think at the next Tyn- wald Court. Mr Kerruish: I would like to inquire whether it could be included in the work of this Com- mittee that a. reprint of the Statutes of the Isle of Man be included. Many of the Statutes have been out of print for years past, and it is im- possible for the public to obtain them; likewise to bring the Statutes up to date in book form. The Deputy-Governor If you want to inolUde that in this Committee you must make a motion to that effect, but I would not advise you to mix them up. The members of the former Committee were Deemster Kneen, the Speaker, Messrs Crellin, J. D. Clucas, and Ker- mode. On the motion of Mr Allen, seconded by Mr J. J. Goldsmith, the former Committee was re- appointed. Mr Kerruish I beg to move, as an addition to what has been already passed, that it be an in- struction to the Committee to report on the Statutes out of print and to bring the Statutes up to date. The Deputy-Governor I have, been considering whether we have enough Statutes to make a volume since the last Vol. VI., and, on making a calculation, I am informed that there are not enough yet, but it is getting on towards it, and it would not be well to make a smaller volume. Mr J. D. Clucas: That is a matter for a separate Committee. Tlo Deputy-Governor: Quite to. All that the Court has done before has troll to vote a sum of money in each case of a new volume. I do not think it is necessary to have a Com- mittee. Mr Kerruish: I referred to the volumes that

Publication of the Debates. 94 TYNWALD COURT, Dec 16, 1902. are out of print. There are several volumes out of print. Ii r nuCas I suggest that the hon. mem- ber make a motion for a Committee to inquire into the matter specially. Tho Deputy-Governor: I think the matter might be allowed to lie over to-day. The re- publication of volumes out of print would be a considerable expense. I do not know how many there are. The Attorney-General:Two, the first two. The Deputy-Governor: I think the hon. mem- ber might withdraw his motion for to-day. This was done.

ADULTERATION OF MILK. Demister Kneen moved the following resolu- tion:— That his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor be respeetfuly requested to obtain and lay be- fore this Court annually the report by the Public Analyst of the analysis made by him during the preceding year under the Adulteration Acts: the said report to contain such particulars and to be in such form as the Governor may from time to time require. His Honour added: My attention was drawn short time ago to the result of the analysis made by the public analyst wilih regard to the milk supply. I find that the practice has been that the report has been returned to the Government Office and has simply been published in the newspapers. When we consider the importance of the milk supply, and the result of the analysis of the last two years, I think there can be no question but that it is most important that the result of that analysis should be laid before the members of the Legislature. I have in my hand a report dated 25th November, 1902, showing the result of the analysis of milk in the different towns of the Island during the last two or three years. The result is rather startling. In Dou- glas, out of 19 samples five were adulterated—a per tentage of 26 1-3rd—practically one-fourth were adulterated. In Castletown, out of 10 samples only one was adulterated. Ramsey stands pre-eminent ; so does Peel. In Ramsey 12, and in Feel four samples were taken, and there was no complaint whatever. The following year. 1902. in Douglas there were 17 samples taken of which one was found to be adulterated; Castletown, no samples analysed; Ramsey, six

Adulteration of Milk. TYNWALD COTIRT. Dec. 16, 1902. 95 samples analysed and found satisfactory; Peel, four, also found satisfactory. 1 feel ennfiden t that there are More than 19 persons sending milk into Douglas, and 1 am quite ,UPJ! Sffine of thvin sell excellent milk and would not adulterate it; but there is grave cause for suspicion that a large quantity of milk seal inta ll.oigtvs is !MI ehal it ought, to be. In (best reports, the decrease in the per-centagis of adulteration this year is attributable to the salutary effects of the raid mad: in Atign,t, 190].. uchru. OH: 01 a 0)tal 11111P five v.-cr; ,1 I up for prmectrion, some being deficient in fat and some being adul- terated by the addition of water. 'Die leverage quality of Hie milk is not sali,factory. Ramsey milk excepted, many of the Douglas vendors escaping proseculhoi by a very narrow margin. Taking the milk from all parts of the Island, Ramsey milk ranks first, in point of quality. (Hear, hear.) I believe it is possible to adulter- ate a very ordinary sample of milk to the extent. of 20 or 30 per cent. without the person rendering himself liable to be prosecuted. I think under these circionst anoes some new rule should be adopted. jam strongly of opinion that the local authority of a town such as Douglas ought to take some 5101);.; Wherrby they would gi a certi- -Beate or testimonial to the person who comes out best in a certain number of analyses made during the year. I am mit moving tins with a view to prosecution; but wish it to be known that the milk is 'looked after, and that an article of food used in practically every house should be carefully watched. This should not only ap- ply to milk, but butter Should be better looked after by the Government, which already looks after intoxicating liquor and tobacco. Mr J. D. Clucas seconded the motion, and is was agreed to.

LISTS OF voTERs. Deem:der Kneen : I now beg to return the re- port of the Committee appointed to consider the statement of expenses incurred in the pre- paration of the list of voters, and I beg to MOVG that the accounts of expenses incurred in preparing and revising the lists of voters having been submitted to the Court and found to be correct..--Resolved, that the same he approved, and that a sum of £171 7s 8d be sp-

List of 'Voters. 96 TYNWAL1) COURT, Dee. 16, 1902.

plied from the general revenue of this Isle to defray the same. Mr J. D. Clucas seconded the motion, and it was agreed to.

MANX CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr Quine: I beg leave to give notice that I shall ask at the next Tynwald Court for a Com- mittee of this Court to be appointed to inquire into the charities of this Island. For a large number of years a number of charities have gone astray, and they have got into channels that are not creditable to this Island. The Deputy-Governor : Do you mean the Com- mittee to go and examine all the charities through- out the Island? Mr Quine: Yes, all the charities of the Island. The Deputy-Governor : I think it would be hardly worth while appointing the Committee during the lifetime of the present House of Keys. (Laughter.) I am speaking from ex- perience. I know what was done before about it. Mr Quine: A large number of charities are getting lost day by day.

LAXEY HARBOUR. Mr Kerruish : With your permission, I would like to ask a question of the Receiver-General. The Deputy-Governor : I do not know whether the Receiver-General is prepared to answer it. The Receiver-General: I. would like to hear it first. (Laughter.) Mr Kerruish : I wish to ask Whether it is the intention of the Harbour Board, before the next Tynwald Court, to have placed on the agenda a vote for the cleaning out and repair of Laxey Inner Harbour. The Committee have laid on the table of this Court a report recommending a certain sum for that object. I wish to know if it is the intention of the Harbour Board to carry out their recommendation by applying for a vote at the next Tynwald Court? The Receiver-General: It is rather difficult to answer answer this question. We have, first of all, to get the authority of the Governor to bring forward such a vote, and a great number of other votes are in the same position as the vote foi Laxey. I do not know whether the present Acting-Governor will give us authority for this;

Manx Charitable Trusts.--Laxey Harbour. TYNWAL]) COURT. Dec. 16, 1902. 97 otherwise it will have to remain over until his Excellency comes to the Island, and has gone into this subject, and 11;1.8 decided as to which he will allow and which be will give money for. The Deputy-Governor: If I gave authority, I should have to go into the question, and I am not sufficiently acquainted with the details of the matter at present. Of course, I will look into it,. Mr Kerruish might remind you that you were at one time a member of the Committee that inquired into this matter. (Laughter.) The Deputy-Governor: Yes. The Committee at that time thought the works ought to be done, but getting the money is another question. (Re- newed laughter.) This concluded the business of the Court, and the members of the Council retired.

Laxey Harbour.