TYNWALD COU RT.

DottOL.ks DiuitsuAr. INIAnClt 8, 1900.

Present:—M. the Council—his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor (I..ord Henniker), President of Ihe Court; Deernster Sir James Bell, Deemster Kneen, Lbe Attorney-General, the Receiver- General, the Vicar-General, and the Archdeacon. In the Keys—the Speaker, Messrs J. ,Toughin, T. Chigoe, .1. T. Cowell, W. Quine, R. Kaighen, W. Quayle, j. R. Kerruish, R. Corlett, D. :Maitland, T. Corlett, J. C. Crellin, T. Allen, ,T, Mylehreest, J. J. Goldsmith, Jt Cbleas, J. R. Cowell, W. J. Kermorle, ;old J. I). Clueas.

QTJ ESTIONS. The. Governor: I think there were some gentle- men in 'he House wanted to ask me some ques- tions to-day. As am in a hurry to-day, I think the most convenient way would be to postpone iL to the next Court. Air Quine said he would give his Excellency notice of his question in writing.

THE BEER DUTIES. The G-overnor: T ;1771 going to ask you to pass this resolution, and then, directly- afterwards, I am going to introduce a Bill to bring it into effect in a proper manner. The Bill ought to be passed at once. It is rt very short. one, and I shall a=lt the Council to go into iL at once. and I shall ask gentlemen of the House of Keys to wait here for a few moments, and probably we will settle the matter in a very short. time. The Attorney- General was good enough to draft the Bill; he has taken a great, deal of trouble with it. The Bill does not silleet this resolution ; it affects Manx beer only. The'Attorney-General: I heg to move: — Thal in lieu of the duty of elvitoull now charged on it:e nr beer removed cr innortecl into this Island, there shall be nharged and paid from the data hereof the followieg Far every 36 gallons, where the worts thereof were before fermentation of a- specific gracitS of 1055, a duty of Os 6d, and so on in proper. .- • Questions.—The Beer Duties, 246 TYNWALI) COURT, March 13, 1900.

Mon, adding for increase and deducting for decrease in gravity. The. Attorney-General: This resolution adds exactly one shilling per barrel over the existing duly. Mr Mylchreesti Does that apply to all the beers of higher gravity? The Attorney-General: They go in proportion. It is an increase of a shilling all round. It is adding a shilling to the present duty, and the pre- vent duty on imported beer is aceording to tne specific gravity: but 5s 6c1 per 36 gallons repre- sents the specific gravity of 1055. With regard to the Manx beer, the Bill will provide so that the difference non• existing between the two will be maintained. (Hear, hear) I believe that the branches have this underitanding or pledge that the duty on Manx beer will be increased in a cor- responding way. Mr Mylchreest t Take Manx beer of a. gravity of 1050, that would be charged 4s per barrel. That beer is tested by saccharometer in England, which is an instrument not used here, and, consequently, we lose is 9d or as per 36 gallons in not having the beer tested as it is in England. The Attorney-General Are you speaking of the Manx beer, or of the English? Sir Mylchreest : Manx beer. The Attorney-General: It is not before us in this resolution. The Governor I All" can say is that I am very much obliged to the Attorney-General for giving so much attention to the matter. Ile and I had a long conference together yesterday, and we set- tled on thie. I really can confidently recommend this resolution. Deemster Kneen: 1 have nmeh pleasure in se- conding the resolution. 'there is a very great deal in what. the hon: member for Castletown says. At present we are charging the same duties, as the hon. member will see, on any specific gravity. Supposing the specific gravity is between 1054 and 1055, the duty will be 5s 6d, and so on in propor- tion. Now, under this new arrangement, we shall have a duty on every degree of gravity. It will be slight increase, a, benefit to the revenue. Supposing. for instance, there were 60 barrels of beer at 1462 specific gravity, the present duty e.ould be £15. Now, 60 barrels of beer under the new arrangement will come to '15 43 4d,- or a gain of about .30s per cent. On that account it tells in The Beer Duties. • TYNWALD COURT, March 8. 190. 2,17 our favour. But the lower the gravity the greater the profit, and, on the lower classes of beer, there will be a gain of about 141 per cent. Those are the lines on which the matter is followed out in England. But, I think the matter the hon. mem- ber for Castletown refers to is this, and it is one which is well worthy of consideration on sours future day. The duty of the Isle of Man, so far a•3 Manx beer is concerned. is not calculated by specific gravity at all: it is calculated on the bus- hels of malt and weight of sugar, and is Cid per bushel of barley or quarter of sugar; and, under that arrangement., I am told, the Manx brewers have too great an advantage. On the other hand, if you charge according to specific gravity, I am told it would require extra expense in the way of extra. officers for testing.. But I do not see at all why we should not, after fair notice to the persons interested in the trade, instead of saying is (xl per bushel of barley or quarter of sugar, make some increase that would fairly represent what. the loss is to the revenue. Otherwise, we may be giving the Manx brewer an unfair advan- tage as against the English brewer. I think that is what the hon. member fur Castlet own had in his mind. 1 do not think it will he well to deal with that now. The Bill will require considera- tion and alteration when the matter is dealt with. Mr J. R. Cowell: The difficulty which arose at the last silting of the Court was not a difficulty Hest presented itself to members of this House. I think your Excellency will give this House the credit of saying they were perfectly clear in their wishes in the matter, but in deference to the members of the Council, who thought there was some technical difficulty in the resolution, this House agreed to hold the matter over until to- day. The proposal made by the At orney-General to-day meets, I think, the view of the House, and, we never had any other view. We were perfectly clear in our intentions and wishes, and now that the legal gentlemen of the Council have looked most carefully into the matter, we are perfectly satisfied that that ix a right and fair proposal. I should iike 1.41 say-, while I am on in,y feet. that in years gdue by one of your Exeellmoy's prede- eestors orad frennently. in a mil 1 wny, to taunt this lower Chamber with a certain amount of in- difference which it showed in fiscal matters, mat- ters of taxation. I am very pleased to note to- day that I think the suggestions made by this House at the last Tynwald Court have materially

The Beer Duties, 248 TYNWALD COURT, March 8. 1900. assisted your Excellency and put. you in a stronger position financially than what you proposed. think we, as the people's representatives, may lake some little credit to ourselves for having im- proved his Excellency's position, and very largely tilled his purse. I hope that the time will never come when this lower Chamber will forget to take a very active interest in these questions of taxa- tion. Ton• Excellency, T know, is Chancellor of the Exchequer, and has enormous power, but, at the stone time it is alwttys undesirable that mat- ters of this kind should be rushed through the House, though. of course, there are times when no delay should he caused, but it is most undesir- able on all occasions of this kind that the people's representatives should be exceedingly alert on questions of taxation: and express themselves very freely in your Excellency's presence in regard to them. I maintain that the action I took at the last sitting has not resulted in anything but profit to your Excellently ❑:nd the financial posi- tion. I would like to say, further, that while most heartily approving of Um resolution, 't occurs to me that, without. attempting to speak definitely, with regard to figures, the position you will he placed in :it the close of this Court will be, taking your own figures at the list Court, that fen and tobacco will give you £4,000, and the in- crease in the spirit duties, and the increase under the resolution of the Attorney-General, and under the Bill which we aro going to handle in a few moments in our (twit Chamber, I think I am right in saying will put row• Excellency in receipt of £7,000 a year. 1. want to make, in connection with that, this remark: We may be met, and pro- bably will lie met, by many of our constituents with this charge—the English Government have raised the revenue an enormous sum because they had a great demand, in fact, the money was spent, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was bound to raise the money to pay his bills. But we have, up to this moment, forgotten lid+ fact, that we have to-day joined with your Excellency in largely increasing the taxation of this country. Now, 1 think I am justified in saying this, and I sin sore the members of the Council will support inc, that it is D.J. a wise, or -even a justifiable course, for any Chancellor of the Exchequer to dopt to largely increase the taxation of a coun- try needlessly: he must have a reason for raising taxes. No man would have a right to impose on ane• country a. large increase of taxation if he had no purpose in view—no scheme for spending that The Beer Duties. TYNWALD couwr, March 8, 1900. 249 taxation. It is an axiom in politic and financial matters that taxation should never be raised but when necessary. .1-our Execlleney bas not yet stated to us what ynur intention is with regard to this increase of money, and 1 do not press you to- day to make any statement, but I would like to make this remark, that T. hope the large increase of taxation which we have granted, and which you will now be the master of, will induce your Excellency to consider, very carefully and promptly, a policy for employing it. What I mean is, that I hope that money is not going to be raised and go into the Manx Exchequer and we in the lower House shall be unable to say what is the reason of raising the taxes of this country. That increase on the tem and tobacco will be felt by the great majority of this country. We are bound to justify our action. 1 press upon your Excellency to-day Ibis suggestion, and I hope you will give some consideration to what I am now saying. It is this That as soon as you possibly can, after giving, possibly, some time for delibera- tion, you will be prepared to lay before the Tyn- wald Court of this Island some scheme in the pub- lic interest, some general scheme, some scheme which will lie calculated to benefit the entire 'eland. I do not indicate the direction of a. scheme, but a politic and wise scheme, and one which will be calculated to justify the imposition of the new taxation— The hen: member here paused while his Excel- lency conferred with Deeinster Sir ;lames loll. The Governor: Go on; I am listening. i'dr .1. R. Cowell: I am ono of those nervous individuals who find it exceedingly difficult to ad- dress the chair when the chair is not. listening. The Governor: I um listening the whole time.. I hear every word. .:\Ir R, Cowen: I was saying that I hope that rpeedily, after it conference with the whole of your Council, you will take into eonaider•r,tiou some general scheme Minsk will be in the interests of Ore whole Island and of Ore entire community, and such :b scheme as will bc likely to meet with the approval of this Council, so that your Excel- lency and this House may lee able to justify the largely increased stun you have now levied on neW taxation in this Island, and I feel. sure, if you do, this money will be given to wise and judicious purposes, resulting in benefit to the general com- munity. Otherwise, it may be impossible for your Excellency and this Rouse to justify their actions.

The Beer Duties. 250 TYNWAI.D COURT, March 8, 1900.

The Governor: i thank the hon. member for what he has stated. I am sure that I think that I have consulted the wishes of the House of Keys in what I have dune. I did not propose these arrangements. They have been proposed in the House of Keys the other day, and I arranged them accordingly. But I am very glad that we should have more money to spend, and I hope the result will be as the hon. member wishes. I cannot say the exact sum that will come in from these increased duties; but, at the same time, I have no doubt we shall find plenty of opportuni- ties of spending money. (A laugh:) But we must. not be rash because we happen to hsve this money coming in. We must not. expect to deal with every possible claim that is made, and that is always the danger when surpluses are large. (Hear, hear.) We must consider matters very carefully when the Hine comae. I do not think we should go into those questions now. I know a good deal of what I am going to tell the House; but I want to tell them the whole of my proposals at °nee, and not to tell them in part merely. Per- haps the House will allow me to consult the Council with regard to these matters, and, when the proper time comes, I will make a statement of what I will do. I have no wish to put extra taxes on the people of the Island, but it is the wish of the Keys that it should be done. I pro- posed n modified scheme. Now we shall have to see that the money we arc raising is properly spent. i will take the greatest care, so far as I am concerned, that if is spent for the advantage of the Island. (Bear, hear.) Deemirter Sir James Gelli i 111.5M a few wards to say in connection with the debate which has arisen out of this proposal. With reference to the 'Manx duty, I take this opportunity of saying that in the Bill which will probably come before both branches of the Legislature this afternoon, it will be the substitution, probably, instead of the scale of dillies in the Manx Act, of a provision that there be, as it were, an unit of strength of the beer at in certain duty, and that the actual ditty rillyable will rise or fall in proporlien. The lion. Member for Castintown introdtr cd the question ;18 if it was not fair tic 141c Island. berause we are lasing money by thk particular mode of doing d. But I de not think we ought lo enter into the sub. jeet in th's Bill. We ought to be satisfied to-day to sulsAit- ate rite form for the other. In oor Manx Act—I am speaking of my own knowledge, be-

The Beer Duties. TYNWALD COURT, March 8, 1900. 251 cause I had to do with the drawing up both of the English Act for the Isle of Man and the Manx Act-7 was sent over to London, and was in 0011- SlliintiOn with the Treasury, and they afterwards put me in communication with the Inland Re- venue Commissioners and the Board of Customs. I spent some time in London on the subject. The provisions of the Manx Act, which were drawn up practically in the Inland Revenue office, were the provisions which were then in force in Eng- land in reference in the beer duty. There are two modes of ascertaining the duty. There is so much per barrel, ascertained by specific gravity„or by the actual quantities of barley and sugar used in making the beer, the duty in the latter ease being 1/6 for each bushel of malt, and of every 28 pounds weight of sugar used. One mode was considered equal to the other—as nearly as may he. But, according to what the hon. merober for Castletown said, the alternative modes are not equal, and there is a. lass to the revenue by taking the calculation according to the quantities of barley and sugar contained in beer. It may be so, and very likely it has been altered in England. But, at the time our Mani Act was passed, the alternative mode was in use in England. But the choice of the mode was with the Collector—the person who harL'in esti- mate the duty in the Island', a Custom Rouse officer, and in Eng-hunt an officer of the Inland B even tie, If the Inland Revenue have abolished the method now used for esti- mating the Manx duty, it. must have been abolished by Act of Parliament s;nce our Art was passedd. It is raid that, caleulatinA the Act substituting the one for the other, and then communicate with the Inland Revenue au. thorities as to the calculation of the ditty. If we go into this subject now we shalt he delaying our Act for a very long time. Owing to the C.'N invol- ved, it will probably not he to our advantage to make a change, and I an sure his Excellency would have to communicate with the Inland Revenue and ascertain from them their methods and the expense of calculating. If it is to our advantage to make the change it will be better to do it hr another Act, and it requires considera- tion. 7 think we should not. delay this Aet, nor encumber it with provisions which will require careful ccivideration as to whether they are cor- rect or not.

The 'Beer Duties. 252 TYNWALD COURT, March 8, 3900.

The Governor : I should like to Ray upon that point that the Court may consider I am a little too hurried in the matter, bet I only do it in that way because it is absolutely neerxszary. The At- torney-General and myself took great. pains over it, and it is absolutely oeces.tary that we should act at once. I am only following the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England by having these re- solutions and the Bill passed hurriedly, so you will understand why I have called you together so soon for the purpose.

METITYLATEI) SPIRITS. Mr I. R. Cowell: I think, at. the lest Court, your Excellency, I asked you if you would be good enough to make inquiry whether methy- lated spirits pay duty in this Island. Possibly you may not be in a position to answer. My reason for asking is two-fold. I wish to know, first, who ther this form of alcohol pays duty; and•secondly,' for this reason, that. 'I am informed on the best of authority that it is no uncommon practice in this Island—I have heat-ft this rine') I called your Excellency's attention to the matter—that methy- hted spirits is sold in small quantities to the poorer people, who habitually become intoxicated to a most fearful extent, really and truly, for a few coppers. I am told chemists in this Island have been known to sell it,. The polite know, and my last informant is a duly qualified medical man in this Island. He told me that, quite reeently---only a few days ago—he had attended a woman who was in a slate of absolute unconsciousness for four hours, having drunk methylated spirits as an in- toxicant. It is used by being mixed with beer, and is drmilf neat, with most disastrous results. We ought to know if duty is paid on it, and thought that, in this way, I would mill your Ex- cellency's attention to what is a. most distressing fact, that poor people should become enured to this dreadful drug or liquor with such injuriou=, results. The Governor: In answer to the hon. member, I may say that there is tin duty charged in Eng- land. except on importations from abroad. They r•re now charged at a higher price. We have hardly any from abroad here, if any, and I, per- sonally-, have no objection to charge the same h&c as they do in England. There is no particular hurry. There is no duty in the Isle of Man. There is 'hardly any imported from abroad here, in

Drunkenness from Methylated Spirits. TVNWALD COURT, March 8, 1990. 253 fact, there is none; but, at the same time, I em quite ready to go as far as that. There is no hurry, as no loss is being 'sustained. I have talked to the Atinrney•General about it, and I wilt consider it very carefully with him, For the question wants consideration as to how to word it. If the Legislature wish it should be dealt with in the same way as in England I am perfectly ready. but we ought to take time to consider the form it will take. Mr Mylchreest t That spirit is 61 per cent. over proof. and it is sold at 2s for one gallon; that. would intoxicate 30 people. The Governor: I should be very sorry to drink it. It must burn r•ne's inside. Mr Mylehreest: It is mixed with naphtha. Mr J. H. Cowell : I think I ought to thank your Excellency for your reply, and, at the same lime, I venture to expres,s the opinion of the House of Keys that this form of alcohol should he taxed to the utmost it is taxed in England. I think I am justified in saying that it is the wish of the House. (Hear, hear.) The Governer : I cannot say snore. I will con- sider the rinestion very carefully with the Attor- ney-Ceneral, when lie has had time lo look into it, and then I shall be able to see how far we can go. It wants very great consideration, and I do not think you would wish me to act in a rash manner in this matter. It is not my usual way. The Court adjourned to Tuesday, March 13.

Drunkenness from Methylated Spirits. LEIS L A T1 VE COUN CIL,

DonaLas, THURSDAY, MARCH 8, 1900.

Present: The Lient.-Governor, Deemster Sir Tames Gell, Deemster Kneen, the Attorney- (leneral, the Receiver-General, the Archdeacon, and the Vicar-General.

THE BREWERS' ACT. Deemster Kneen moved the first reading of a Bill to amend the Brewers' Act, 1874. The motion was carried. Deemster Kneen moved that the standing orders be suspended in order to proceed with the Bill. The motion was agreed lo. Deemster Kneen moved the second reading. The Attorney-General seconded, and proceeded to explain the purport of the Bill. He said : 4i e have practically only to deal with sections eight and nine of the Act of 1874. Section eight con- tains a table, and the praetical effect of the Bill is to strike out that table, and substitute a pro- vision which is contained in the namely, just fixing the figure 1055, and, taking the prese,it duty on that of 3/6, adding 1/- to it, making it 4/6; and then providing that the duty is to alter in proportion as the specific gravity of the worts alters. There is a graduated table before giving the stages of the degrees. A graduated table now gives a specific gravity of 1055 as the specific gravity at 2/6, and adds 1/- to that, The only alteration of principle comes in the ninth FecLion, We have to alter that 1/6 in order lo make it correspond with section eight. The only one point which it seems to me necessary to men- tion is this: that by the Bill, as it at preseni; stands, the figure of 4/6 represents a rice of 1/- in the duty upon barley, and corresponds exactly with the increase which has taken place in England, and it must be remembered that on English beer the duty at present is 6/6 at 1055, whilst ours is only 3/-, so that you will see it is it very much larger proportionate increase of the tax on Manx beer than English. That is a mai ter the Council ought to know of, and 4.t should not be supposed we are doing exactly what is done in England. We are keeping the diffdi- The Bre were' Act. COUNCIL, March 8, 1900. 255

ence between the two the F„Ime, although the proportion that the difference bears to the figures which it separates is not. the same. The Point. .that on English beer at present the duty is t.• They raise that roughly one-sixth—not one.sixth—by putting on 1/-. The duty on our beer is 3/6 for the same quality, and we raise 1/ . or nearly one-third. The Receiver-General: We cannot help that. We raise it the same amount as in England. The Attorney-General: We still keep up tha same difference. I am not expressing any differ- ence of opinion, but I wish it to be understood. Deemster Sir James Gell : The imported beer will pay 11- a gallon more duty ; according to the original arrangement it ought only to be sixpence. The Receiver-General: Does anybody know what is the reason that we collect the duty on a different basis to what it is collected in land. Is it. an easier basis? The Attorney-General : That will not come cr. in this present Bill. Deemster Kneen: I am informed that it is inuch easier. We have not machinery to collect on specific gravity : it would he much more ex- pensive to do so. The Attorney-General: It is clearly a matter, as your Excellency said, that we cannot possibly deal with in the present, Bill. All we can do is to mechanically substitute the new duties for the old. The Receiver-General: The only question asked is— ay we calculate the duty in this way? The Governor put the motion that the Bill he read a second time, and it. was carried. In committee, The preamble was postponed, and clauses one, two, and three were passed without alteration. In clause four. Deemster Sir James Gell moved an amendment of a formal character to add the word "degrees" (of specific gravity) after "1055." The Attorney-General pointed out that fhe wording of the Bill followed exactly the English Act. Deemster Sir James Gell: There is no meaning in "1055," unless we nay degrees. The Archdeacon: I do not think degree ought to be inserted. I never saw specific gravi:y stated as being in degrees. The Brewers' Act, 256 COUNCIL, 111arai 8, 1900.

The Governor: I think it is surplusage, and that the clause will read right enough without degrees. The Archdeacon : I think it not only surplusage, but that it will he wrong. Deemster Sir ;Tames Ge : J do think it a mat- ter of bail legislation to leave it ft question ce- tween. the Grown and the people. as to what means. Where is the explanation in any Act as to what specific gravity means? Deemster Kneen produced an English Act with the word "degrees" in, and it was agreed to insert the word as suggested. The clause and the schedule and the preamble were agreed to, and, on the motion of Deemster Kneen, seconded by the Attorney-General, the Bill wile read a third time, and passed. The Bill was at once sent down to the House of Keys. This concluded the business of the 'day.

The Brewer's Act..