TYNWALD COTT HT.

DOUGLAS, TUESDAY, MAY 30, 1899.

Present—In the Council : His Excellency the Lieut.-Governor (President), the Lord Bishop, Deemster Sir James Cell, the Receiver-General, and the Vicar-General; in the Keys: Mr A. W. Moore, J.P. (Speaker), Messrs D. Maitland, E. T. Christian, 'I'. Allen, J. C. Crellin, J. D. Clucas, W. Quine, W. Quayle, J. A. Mylrea, W. J. Kermode, J. J. Goldsmith, R. Cowley, T. Clague, J. R. Kerruish, Jos. Qualtrough, James Mylchreest, J. T. Cowell, and E. H. Christian.

ACCIDENT TO THE CLERK OF THE ROLLS. The Governor: I am sure you will join with me in sympathising most sincerely with the Clerk of the Rolls for tho very bad accident which has happened to him. We regret it very much in- deed. I understand he is contlned to his house. I am sure we are all very sorry that he is not here to-clay, and I am quite certain we shall join in sympathising with him in his illness.

FINANCIAL STATEMENT BY HIS EXCELLENCY. The Governor :I propose this morning to make to you as short and concise a statement as 1 can-- I shall make no preface to it—with regard to financial business. If you look at pages 20 and 21 of the statement, you will see he prospective balance on March 31st, 1900, shown there ie £4,500, including £1,700, interest on loans advanced to local bodies. Since the financial statement was issued, I have ascertained that the cost of the volunteers, estimated at £1,000, will not exceed, we will say, £500. The reason for this is that last year we were charged by the War Office in London with new rifles and new equipment, anti this, of course, will not occur again, so that £500 can be added to the surplus, as I have said above. Therefore, the estimated surplus for this year is about £5,000. The true surplus will Accident to the Clerk of the Rolls—Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. 735 be about £3,350: you will have to take away tie, £1,700 from the £5,000, as this £1,700 is not available for ordinary expenses of Government ; it goes to the accumulated fund. Yon will see, therefore, that I am unable this year—I am compelled, in fact, to with- draw the £1,000 granted in aid of the Lunatic Asylum rate. I have always considered, and it always has been considered, that there should be a balance of £4,000 to meet contingencies. All sorts of things may happen; we may have to spend more money than we anticipate, and so we consider £4,000 the right estimate of the surplus we should have in hand. If I take £1,000 from the balance of £3,350, I have only £2,350 left, and, in my opinion, this is too narrow a balance for safety. Now, if you will turn to pages 22 and 23, you will see that on the 31st March last the funds in hand to the credit of the Island were £23,784 15s 60. During toe current year it is estimated that we shall re ceive from interest and repayment of loan £3,276. These two sums make £27,054 15s 6d, which will be at the disposal of the Insular Government, out of which will have to be provided £19,568 for public works which have already been voted, leaving a cash balance on March 31st of £7,486 15s 60, plus the £3,350, that is it no further charges are incurred—we shall then have a balance of £10,836 15s 6d at the end of the year. I may remind you that by that time the charge for Ramsey Pier will be cleared off, as well as £4,000 on account of the Battery Pier repairs. The original estimate for Ramsey, you will recollect, was £23,002. I should like to say on e word about education Pensions. I have had some correspondence with the. Government in England. You are aware, of course, that it has been agreed to grant pen- sions to teachers in the different schools, and there is a Bill passing through Parliament, and the Government have assured me that they will include the Isle of Man in this Bill, so that we can pass in the usual way here an Act to place teachers in this Island on the same footing as in England. It would be a great pity, in my estima- tion, to discourage the excellent teaching here, and encourage teachers to go away to secure the benefits of the pensions given in England. (Hear, hear.) The schools, as a rule, are ex- tremely good here, and I think we must do all we possibly can to maintain that efficiency. The estimate for this year for these pensions is in.

Financial Statement. 736 TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. eluded in the vote for education, and it is esti mated that by all the pensions which are due, a• which will become due for a certain number of years, the extra charge on the revenue will he £200 a year. Now, I will give you some figures from a most interesting calculation made for me, and I think they will interest you very much. They have been prepared by my friend Mr Aitken, who, perhaps, knows more about the finances of the Island than any of us, and I think it will show you also, when I read this to you, how carefully the estimates have been prepared. I takje this opportunity of thanking those at the Government Office for the unremitting care and attention they have given to those matters. —His Excellency then read the following memo randum :— MEMORANDUM. The estimated receipts of the ordinary revenue of the Island for the year ended 31st March, 1899, as shown in the printed financial statement issued in May, 1898, were placed at £75,000, made up as follows:— From Customs duties other than those on tea, tobacco, and cigars and wines £41,740 0 0 Allowance by the Imperial Government in respect of- f. Duties on tea, tobacco, and cigars, and wines 27,080 0 0 2. Duties on goods other than the above 260 0 0 Official fees and stamps, fines, and other miscellaneous receipts ... 2,175 0 0 Boat licences, bay fishery, and other rents under Isle of Man Harbours Act, 1872 1,000 0 0 Rents and tolls from Government pro- perty 1,045 0 0 Interest on loans 1,700 0 0 £75,000 0 0 On the 26th May, 1898, the duty on spirits was raised 6d per gallon, and for the remaining 10 months of the financial year 1898-99 it was esti- mated this addition wou— produce 1,700 0 0 thus bringing the estimated revenue for 1898-99 up to £76,700 0 0 The actual receipts for the year ended 31st March, 1898, amounted to £78,121 5s 4d, made up as follows:— From Customs duties other than those on tea, tobacco, cigars, and wines £43,663 8 2 Allowance by the Imperial Govern- ment in respect of- 1. Duties on tea, tobacco, and cigars, and wines 28,270 0 0 Financial Statement.

TYNWALD COURT, May 60. 1899 737

2. Duties on goods other than the above 262 0 0 Official fees, stamps, fines, and other miscellaneous receipts 2,116 10 1 Boat licences, bay fishery, and other rents under Isle of Man Harbours Act, 1872 1,051 11 6 Rents and tolls from Government pro- perty 814 11 10 Interest on loans 1,943 3 9 £78,121 5 4 Under the head of Customs duties, British spirits shows a gain on the estimate of ,R,682 18 7 and beer a gain of 572 0 5 £1,254 19 0 While the following articles show a decrease on their respective estimates :- Rum 1726 6 9 Brandy 112 14 Geneva 135 14 0 Foreign spirits 8 11 3 Coffee and chicory 17 9 8 £1,000 15 10 --- The consumption of British spirits shows a tendency to increase, the imports for the last four years being as follows:— Gallons. 1896 54,723 1897 57,890 1898 57,586 1899 58,445 The consumpti on of beer, al E0', whether Manx cr iinnorteid, ice the mr.t year shows a con&der- able increase ever that for each of the preceding three years. The duty received from beer in the last four years is as follows :— 1896 £5,909 1897 6,155 1898 6.088 1899 6,572 On the other hand, the consumption of rum, brandy, and Geneva, taking the figures of the last four years, seems to point to a falling-or under these heads. The importation of these articles in each of the last four years is as under:— Rum. Gallons 1896 14,761 1897 16,4211 1898 15,488 1899 14,057 Brandy. Gallons . 1896 4,348 1897 4 883 1898 4,329 1899 I 4,233 Financial Statement,

738 TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899.

Geneva. Gallons. 1896 1897 2,457 1898 ..4 2,240 1899 1,939 With regard to the allowance made by the Imperial Government in respect of the duty on tea, tobacco, cigars, and wine, it will be noticed that the amount paid over to the Insular rev- enue in respect of the past year is £28,270, as against the estimate of £27,080. This increase is entirely under the head of tobacco, and arises from the fact that the receipts from that source of revenue in the United Kingdom were, towards the end of March, unexpectedly swollen by ab- normal payments into the Imperial Exchequer in the belief that the duty on tobacco would be raised. Turning to the receipts from the remaining sources of revenue, it will be observed that, while the receipts from fee stamps, fines, and other miscellaneous items were estimated to produce £2,175, the actual receipts were £2,116 lOs ld, or about £60 less than estimated. Insular fee stamps produced £100 less than was anticipated, while there was a falling-off in fines and gaol receipts on the estimate of £60. The Rolls Office remuneration, interest, and mis- cellaneous receipts, however, exceeded the esti- mate by about £100. Boat licences, and bay fishery, and other rents received by the Harbour Commissioners pro- duced £50 above their estimated yield. The rents and tolls derived from Government property actually paid over to revenue realised £230 less than was estimated—the explanation being that the cause of cleaning and repairing the stone work of the Victoria Pier buildings during the past year was paid for out of the growing produce of the shon rents. Under the head of interest received on loans there is an excess over the estimate of £243, owing to the rate of interest being higher than was anticipated on the investment of the cash balances at the credit of the Isle of Man Accu- mulated Fund. The net gain over the estimated receipts for the past year will, therefore, be seen to be about £1,420. The estimated ordinary expenditure of the Island for the past year, as shown in the finan- cial statement of 1898, was 0 0 To this were subsequently added votes for- 1. Grant in aid of Lunatic Asylum rate £1,000 0 0 2. Museum at Castle Rusher' 50 0 0 £73,720 0 0 In this estimate was included a sum of £1,000 for advertising, but, as only £752 was voted. the estimated expen- diture was reduced by 250 0 0 leaving a sum of £73,470 0 0

as the estimated expenditure for the year. From the returns now published it will be

Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May 30 1899. 739

seen that the actual expenditure amounted to .£72,425 5s 10d, or about £1,045 less than the estimate. On maw of the services there have been savings, amounting in all to £1,534, the principal items being education, maintenance of public buildings, expenses of Local Government Board, and the Local Industrial Commission, on which four items a saving has been effedted of about £850. Turning now to the estimate of the crdinary revenue and expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1900, the revenue is estimated at £77,500, as against the actual revenue last year of £78,121 5s 4d. This estimate is made up as follows:— Duty on British spirits £27,000 0 0 Duty on rum 6.500 0 0 Duty on brandy 2,000 0 0 Duty on Geneva ...... 900 0 0 Duty on foreign spirits 60 0 0 Duty on coffee and chicory 60 0 0 'Duty on beer 6,480 0 0 43,000 0 0 Allowance by the Imperial Govern- ment in respect of- 1. Duties on tea, tobacco, cigars. and wines £28,640 0 0 2. Duties on goods other than the above 260 0 Official fees, fee stamps, fines, and other miscellaneous receipts 2,100 0 0 Boat licences, bay fishery, and other rents under Isle of Man Harbours Act, 1872 1,000 0 0 Rents and tolls from Government pro- perty 800 0 0 Interest on loans 1,700 0 0

£77,500 0 0

It will be observed that British spirits have been estimated to produce nearly £500 less than the actual yield for last year; ruin about £100 less; while brandy and Geneva have been taken at practically last year's receipts. Beer has been estimated to produce slightly less than the yield for the past year. Altogether, the revenue from spirits, beer, and coffee and chicory has been placed. at £440 below the estimated yield for 1898-99, and at about £660 below the actual yield of that year. In estimating the revenue from the above sources at £43,000, it is considered a safe estimate has been taken; it is, of course, possible that British spirits and beer may show a still further upward tendency. but, looking at the falling-off in the consumption of ruin, brandy, and Geneva in the last three years, it does not seem prudent to anticipate a greater yield from these three sources than was realised last year. On the other hand, it may be that the returns at 31st March, 1900. may show a. still further reduction in the consumption of these latter articles. The allowance to be received frcm the Imperial Government for the current year in respect of

Financial Statement. 740 TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. the duties on tea, tobacco, and cigars and wines is estimated at— Tea £6,946 Tobacco and cigars 18,714 Wines 2,980 £28,640 as against the actual receipts last year from— Tea £6,755 Tobacco and cigars 19,201 Wines 2,314 £28,270 Tobacco shows a decrease of £487, as compared with the previous year, but the decrease is more apparent than real; for, as already explained, the revenue from tobacco in the United King- dom last year having been swollen by abnormal payments into the Exchequer towards the end of March, in the expectation of an increase in the tobacco duties, so the revenue from tobacco for the current year is estimated to bring in a cor- respondingly less amount. Should the Chancellor of the Exchequer realise his anticipations that the normal consumption of tobacco in the United Kingdom will increase owing to the re- duction of the duty. the Insular revenue will, of course, gain from the improved state of things. The duty on tea is estimated to produce nearly £200 more than last yes ; while the duties on wines are estimated to yield about £660 more— the result mainly of the raising of the Insular wine duties to the level of those of the United Kingdom. The revenue from fee stamps, boat licences. rents of Government property. tolls. etc., have been taken at practically last year's receipts. The interest received on loans has been esti- mated at about £240 less than last year's yield. as a low rate of interest has been taken for the investment of our ba'ances at the Pack of Eng• land. The ordinary expenditure for the current Year is estimated at £72,950, as against the actual es- penditure for last Year of £72.475. or an increase of rather more than £520. The Governor procce'led:—I do not think there is anything more that I can read to you from this statement. I thought this memorandum urn_ such a very gond one that I would read it to you, for it is a masterly digest, as it were, of the financial statement, and I thought I could not do better than read it to you. I do not think I need add 'much more. The financial statement which you have in your hands, think I may say, on the whole, is very satis- factory. I think I may say we have enough to go on with for present- purposes, and I (lo net think for a moment that any new taxes air necessary. Of course, like all of us, I should lite to makes all sorts of improvements, but I do no', wish to propose any new taxes if I can possibly help it. The money market is better now than

Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1898. 741

it was, and if the conversion of our loan, which I have thought a great deal about, can be made, it will be a very great help to the revenue of this Island. But we must wait until the money market is favourable to deal with a question of that kind. Before we launch out into new works, it is better to wait until we see how the money market goes. With these few remarks, I com- mend the estimates which I have laid before you to your approval.

TEACHERS' PENSIONS. The Lord Bishop : I should like to ask your Excellency with reference to what fell from you with respect to the Bill Mich has been introduced into the Imperial Parliament with regard to teachers' pensions, whether your information it to the effect that that Bill will be pressed through this session? The Governor : I think there is no doubt about it. My own idea was that this was based on a resolution in the House of Commons, being a Budget proposal. The Lord Bishop : I can only re-echo what fell from his Excellency as to the importance of this scatter in the Isle of Man. I think you can see clearly that unless the teachers in this Island are placed on the same footing as teachers in England, we cannot expect them to remain with us. It is a matter of the greatest possible im- portance, and I think I can gather from his Ex- cellency that if the Bill is passed in the English Parliament, a Bill will be introduced here to place us exactly on the same footing. I can only say, as Chairman of the Board of Education, and I believe I am speaking the mind of every meanb er of the Board, that I earnestly trust the Bill will pass through the Legislature of this Island gas quickly as possible. Mr Joughiu : Rear, hear.

ADVERTISING', GRANT. Mr J. T. Cowell : Your Excellency, there is ens matter which I think there is some doubt about. Unfortunately I was late, and just heard your closing remarks upon this point. In the Financial Statement, on page 21, the grant of £1,000 in aid of the Lunatic Asylum rate is omitted? The Governor : Yes, it is. Mr J. T. Cowell: It was omitted last year, but when the case was placed before your Excellency

Teachers' Pensions.—Adveittsima Grant. 742 TYNWALD COURT. May 30, 1899. you had it re-inserted. I wish to point out that the Board of Advertising—I am sorry the Chair- man is not present—have spent £1,750. We are in the position—as this Court is very well aware --that unless the Board does its business promptly at a certain, time of the year, the spending of money later on is, to a, very large extent, throwing money away. The grant was voted earlier this year than usual. The Board have done their work so well that they have incurred a debt of £1,750 within a few pounds; and I am sure it, is the Insular Government that will be liable. The Board are simply the servants of this Court, to carry out the will of the Court ; and to appoint a Commit- tee to spend £750 only in advertising the Island would be perfectly useless, and throwing it away. You could not advertise to any effective extent whatever that would be of the slightest benefit to the Isle of Man. The Board went to work this year as usual. They entered into, their con- tracts for the season, and the work has been so well done that notthin.g remains now but for the Board to receive the bills certifying their correct- ness, and see that the money is paid. So that, seriously, I trust your Excellency has no inten- tion of cutting off the vote. It is one of the most vital votes that is passed by this Court, and it will be a very serious matter indeed if the Court tampers with it in any way. The Governor: I think it was rather rash of the Committee to spend the money before it was voted. Of course we miler arrange some plan of getting them out of the difficulty. It is abso- lutely impossible for me to grant the money. I cannot do it. It would be quite wrong and dis- honest of me to. do it under the present circum- stances. Mr CYlucas: Unless the Court votes a sum of money in aid of advertising, no rate can be imposed at all The money will all have to come cut of the revenue. I take it from the feeling expressed in the Court the last two years, it will he extremely difficult to get any vote from this Court; unless that £1,000 is granted, it will be very hard to get any grant at all for advertising. The Governor : The hon. member must see that I have to consider what is the best way to spend the Insular revenue. At the present time we want about £1,000 or £1,400 for the harbours, and that is a most important work—more important than any advertising. If I have to stretch a Advertising Grant. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. 743 point at all, surely I must give that £1,000; it is more important than all the advertising on the face of the earth that the harbours should be kept in order. You see, gentlemen, you do not quite understand these things. (A laugh.) Mr J. T. Cowell: I feel certain, knowing the individual minds of this Branch of the Legisla- ture, that there is no chance of getting a vote for advertising through, if the vote means an extra rate levied as an Asylums rate, (Hear, hear.) I feel sorry, but I am bound to put it that that is the feeling of the Court, and it was taking this into consideration last year that your Excellency was pressed to get over the difficulty by conceding this grant of £1,000. (The Governor conferred privately with Deem- ster Sir James Gell and Mr Story, but made no rep ly.)

THE VOLUNTEERS. Mr R. Cowley: I am not quite clear as to the statement which your Excellency made, respect- ing the amount set aside for the volunteer ser- vice; but I understood you to say that £500 was the saving on last year's charge of £1,000. The Governor: The sum of £1,000 has been charged in the estimate for this year ; £600 was for the capitation grant and so on ; and then there was £400 charged besides for new rifles. Mr Cowley : So that a saving of £500 will arise on this year's estimates? The Governor: Yes. I could not make it out at first; £1,000 seemed an extreme charge, but it is only for one year. We shall not want it again. Mr Quine : I am not going to say much about the volunteers, because I believe (hey do a great lot of work—(laughter)—but the question arises whether it is not time that the Government of this country should go to the Imperial Govern- ment and ask them whether they would not undertake it out of the £10,000 paid yearly. It is for taking care of our Island—protection. There is no doubt this £10,000 is part of the money paid for protection, and I feel satisfied that if the Government of this country would go before the Imperial Government they would get the cost of the volunteers out of this £10,000. It is part of their duty. No doubt the volunteers do good work, but I think this is a charge that ought to be allowed by the Imperial Government, and I hope this Government will take the matter up and deal with it. The Volunteers. 744 'TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899.

The Governor : I may inform the hon. mem- ber that the volunteers here are specially ex- cepted from the Act—that they should be paid by the Insular Government. Mr Callow : Under the head of volunteers, I should like to know if it would be possible to get particulars how that item is made up, be- cause the adjutant and those oonnected with the corps are perfectly at a loss to know how the amount is so large. They have no statement be- fore them, and they are anxious to know how the amount is made up. Could your Excellency throw some light on the matter? The Governor: Do you mean the £1,004? Surely the officer of the corps must know. Mr Callow: No, I am informed not. It is dcne through the War Office, and they cannot make out how the amount is anything like what it is, and they would like particulars The Governor : Do you not receive any account at all from the War Office? Mr Callow: Not that I know of. I think all the correspondence goes through the Government Office. The Receiver-General: There were arms sent down which had to be paid for direct to the War Office. That would simply be an account between the War Office and the Government of the Isle of Man—the expense of arms and ac- coutrements. Mr Callow : Yes ; but that is only in respect of £500; it is Ihe details of the balance that we are anxious to obtain. The Governor: I think the best way will be for the hon. member to give me notice of that question. I will find out what he requires. The hon. member will understand than if he will ask me a question, I will, in the meanwhile, ask the War Office for an account, and I shall be able to give it him.

PRIVATE SECRETARY TO THE GOVERNOR. Mr J. R. Kerruish: J. would like to inquire— There is £500 set apart to the clerk to the Coun- cil and Governor's secretary, and in this year's estimates there is a sum of £75 allowance for a private secretary for his Excellency in addition to the secretary. The Governor : It is allowed by the Govern anent in England. Mr Aitken now acts as my

Private Secretary to the G v •!nor. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. 745 private secretary. It is allowed by the Treasury in order to help me in my work. It is absolutely necessary.

THE INSULAR DEBT. Mr Quine: On page six I find that the interest and sinking fund on the debt and cost of manage- ment is set down at £13,672. It would be inter- esting, not only to me, bud• to this Court and the public at large, to know what percentage of that money is for management. It would be inter- esting to know who has the management of this, and what is the cost of management, and whether it is some person who has already a good salary who deals with this question. The Governor : There is no question of in- terest : you cannot alter the interest. As far as I am informed it is managed by the bankers, and the money is paid to the bankers for managing the fund. Mr Quine : There must be two separate items, they are not set down here as such. The Governor : The bankers have the manage- ment. Mr Quine : What I should like to know is what :s the cost of management? The Governor : I have asked Mr Story if he can tell me, and he says that the cost of manage- ment is so small you cannot pick it out. It goes to Messrs Coutts, of London,, the agents for the Isle of Man in London. I have no doubt I could find out. Will you give me notice of that ques- inm, and I will find out for you?

LISTS OF VOTERS. Mr Quine : There is also another matter—the expense of forming and revising the lists of voters at elections is set down at £255. It seems a large sum, and next year it is set down at £200. It would be interesting to know who is charged with this. Is it some person whose salary is already paid by the Government, because the charges on our revenue goes up by leaps and bounds, and the country is anxious to know these questions. The Governor : The amount of £255 has been voted by the Tynwald Court. Mr Quine : The £200 this year .seems a very large sum. The Governor : The estimate is a covering estimate. Very likely it will be less.

The Insular Debt.—List of Voters. 746 TVNWALD COURT, May 36, 1899.

SUPERVISION OF BREWERIES. Mr Quine asked whether the supervision of breweries and the collection of the duties on malt were included in the cost of collection of customs duties on page four amounting to £2,659 2s ld. The Governor : My answer to the hem mem- ber is—yes, it is.

PUBLIC BUILDINGS.—TOLLS.—PENSIONS Mr Clague : I notice on page 15 that in the return of the expenditure on account of the main- tenance and repair of public buildings a sum of £46 14s 10d is noted here as having been spent on Peel Castle repairs; but we see nothing with regard to the revenue. Is that £46 14s 10d over and above the receipts for admission? I am sorry that a valuable piece of ground like that should become a cost on the general revenue of the Isle of Man. We think it ought to be at least self- supporting. The Governor : In answer to the hon. member, I. may say that the whole of the money from the different Castles is brought in to the credit of the Insular Government after every expense of the Castles is paid for. Mr Goldsmith: I presume the same thing will apply to Castle Rushen. There is a charge of £47 8s 10d, but I see no credit for the tolls re- ceived from the Castle. Surely the tolls for Peel Castle and Castle Rushen should appear in the acc•cunts. The Governor : There are no details given, but if you will look on page eight, they are all in- cluded in -.he item "rents and tolls derived from Government property, £814 lls 10d." If you compare that with the expense of the different Castles you will see what the net revenue has been. Mr Goldsmith: Seeing that the debits are specified it would have been better to give the receipts separately. The Governor : I do not care about those loaded statements. Mr E. 1'. Christian : On page 15, the last item in the return of expenditure on account of the ncintenance and epan of public buildings, there is £20 set down for the supervision of the vote. May I ask is that incurred by an architect going round to superintend these buildings, or is it on a( count of fees in the Government Office?

Supervision of Breweries.—Public Buildings.— Tolls.—Pensions. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. 747

The Governor : The fee for supervision of the vote is given to the Treasurer of the Island. It was a grant given some time ago. He sees to these buildings. It was a charge originally paid by the Board of Works in London, and when we to-0k over these buildings we took over the ex- pense of supervising too. Mr J. R. Kerruish: There is another matter I wish to ask a question on—at the bottom of page 12, and on page 13, the matter of pensions. I wa, going to ask your Excellency would it not be possible that some scheme should be devised whereby this pension list could be reduced; that when all the new officials are appointed there might be some deferred payment, instead of pen- sions direct from the evenue. I think the mat- ter would he worthy of serious consideration, as the pension list is getting to be an enormous drain on the revenue of a little country like the Isle of Man. The Governor : I shall be glad to consider any scheme brought before me; but it is quite un- usual. 1 never heard it contended in England that a pension should not be given to a servant of the country after many years' service. Mr Goldsmith : Am I to take it that the mis- cellaneous receipts on page eight is the amount received both from Peel Castle and Castle Rushen? The Governor : The hon. member must remem- ber that all the custodians have to be paid out of that. They are not paid out of the Insular Revenue. If you look on page eight you will see that the rents and tolls, after paying all these expenses, come to £814 lis 10d. Mr Goldsmith : Then I understand the Court have no control over the salary of these custa, dians. The Governor : The Castles are given by his Commission entirely into the hands of the Governor, and he is -responsible for them, and pays the custodians out of the revenue. Mr Goldsmith : I think, your Excellency, that when the debits are specified, the credits should be specified also. We should know the amounts received from Peel Castle and Castle Rushen. The Governor : They have nothing whatever to do with the Insular revenue. Mr Goldsmith: There is a debit against the Insular revenue for the coot of Castle Rushen. The Governor : It is not against the revenue.

Public Buildings.--Toils.—Pensions. 748 TYNWALD COURT, May 30. 1899.

Mr Goldsmith: I beg your pardon: it is in- cluded in the £966 on page 15. Mr °Incas: Do I understand that the Insular Government has to repair Peel Castle and Castle Bushell, and, consequently, that they receive into the revenue the amount of the tolls. If that is so, it is for the Court to know. Mr Quine: On page six, I find that the ex- penses set down last year for the Local Govern- ment were S.290, but I find that it is estimated this year to cost £400. No doubt the Local Government Board is a very useful body; but I hope, if we live to see the budget brought out next year, there will be a. detailed account of how this money is spent. Mr Mylelireest asked if the question of the hon. member for South Douglas had been replied to The Governor : With respect to the expense of the Local Government Board it is estimated at £400 next year because there is an immense amount of printing to be done. Mr Goldsmith: My question was with regard to the fees for admission to Castle Rushen. The Governor : I have answered you. They do not go into the Insular revenue at all—only the balance. Mr Goldsmith: _c seems clear to me that the debits go against the Insular revenue. The Governor : You get LE314 back. Mr Goldsmith : I think it should be specified what the receipts are. If the debits are specified clearly the credits should be specified. There should be a. detailed statement of the receipts. Me J. T. Cowell : I take it, your Excellency, that what the hon. member for South Douglas is trying to show is required Mr Goldsmith: I am not trying to show: I have shown it. (Laughter.) Mr J. T. Cowell: I was going to follow it up by saying that on pages eight and nine you show that the rents derived amount to £814 Us 10d, and, on the other side, page nine, the maintenance and repair of public buildings, including rent and incidental expenses of Customs Houses is set down at £966 15s 11d. We get the statement of the cxpanditure in appen- dix five, and surely in the same account, if it is required by members of the Court, we ought to have a statement of the receipts shown in the same way. I cannot see that there can be any Public Buillings.—Toils.—Pensions. TYNWALD COUP T, May ;0 18°9. 749 objection ic that. For some considerable time questions have been tmked as to the receipts at Peal Castle and Castle Rushen; and I think mem- bers are anxious to know what they are. The Governor : I will see whether I cannot all er it another year. I will look into it carefully. Mr Quine : I had not finished what I was going to say as to the Local Government Board. I hope that if we live to next year we shall SRO a de- tailed account of the expenditure. Decimeter S:r James Gel.: I am afra'd if WO give a detailed account of all these matters we shall have very big volume (Hear. hear.) Mr Kneen was proceeding to refer to a petition of the Douglas Corporation - Mr Cowley : I did not know that we had finished with the budget. The Governor What do you want to ask? MT Cowley : Before we go a-way from the budget will your Excellency say—is it not possible to get a list or return giving the details of £814 for the past year? The Governor : It is only the balance paid in to the revenue. Mr Cowley : It is a very large sum, and there seems to be a good deal of uncertainty about it. I tihimIc the details should be furnished to the Court. The Governor : I have no wish to hold back any details that are required. I shall be glad to give any reasonable amount of information ; but, of course, there are things which are not worth inquiring into. They cost a great deal of money and a great deal of time—such returns. Mr Mylrea : I should just like to say one word, after hearing your Excellency's statement, and endeavouring to appreciate it as far as pos- sible. So far as I aan concerned, I think the revenues of the Isle of Man are in a very satis- factory condition, and that there is oo necessity for any member -of this Court, or fee any one in this country to feel any apprehension with re- gard to our future. There is just a word I might also say with regard to a matter which has arisen in the course of this discussion, naanely, the matter of the vote for advertising. I suppose, technically, my friend and his colleagues are per- sonally liable for one thousand and odd pounds; but I do not think he need be under any appre- hension. I think there is a general feeling in this Court and throughout the Island that the

Public Buildings.—Tolls.—Pensions. 750 TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899.

money hitherto expended by them has been for the benefit of the Island. It is quite true that they have not had a direct authorisation from your Excellency to spend the money they have spent ; butt, on the other hand, at the time they were spending it it would be practically impassible for your Excellency to give it. But I think there will be no difficulty in the long run in get- ting out of the trouble. (Hear, hear.) I do not anticipate any.

CORPORATION OF DOUGLAS. SALE OF LAND, VICTORIA-ROAD. Mr Kneen : At the Court on Friday last the application of the Corporation of Douglas for approval of the sale of two small portions of land adjoining Mount Falcon, Victoria-road, was adjourned, in order that I might give some evi- dence as to the ownership of the land, prior ; its being a roadway. I now wish to call Mr Coole, advocate, to give evidence as to the pro- prietorship of this piece of land. Mr Charles Win. Coole, sworn, said : I am an advocate practising in Douglas, and am well acquainted with the title to the piece of land referred to adjoining Mount Falcon. I have investigated the title on behalf of the present owners of the Falcon Cliff property, and I am also tenant to Mr Okell of the house adjoining the portion of land proposed to be purchased by him. The two parcels of land referred to were originally part of the Falcon Cliff property laid out by the original owners of the property, and were intended to form a part of a roadway leading into Falcon Cliff Hotel. It so appears on the plan. At one time these pieces of land were owned by two or three different individuals. The pieces of land which were formerly under differ ent ownerships are now owned by The Palace and Derby Castle, Limited. So far as the owner of the land adjoining the highway is concerned, the ownership would ho in Mr Okell and The Palace and Derby Castle Co., Limited. Between them they owned the whole of the abutting land, subject to any right of way over it. Alfred Ernest Prescott, sworn, said : I am sur- veyor to the Corporation of Douglas. I thinli that the land proposed to be given up as highway is in no way required for the user of Victoria- road. It leaves the roadway at its full widtu. It was only intended for r se when a new - Corporation of Douglas.—Sale of Land, Victoria road. TYNWALD COURT, May 3), 1899. 751

road should be required towards Falcon Cliff Hotel. I consider the price of lOs per yard full. value, because it is of no use whatever to the Corpoiation, owing to its peculia: formation and its smallness. Deemsgter Sir James Gell When you are speaking of that roadway, you mean part of the open eepace used as roadway. Is this vacant land alongside the road? There are many plots of the same kind throughout the Island. Witness: Yes, it is only an easement to tie roadway, really. (By Mr Clucas) : It is no use whatever for building land in its present con. dition, or for widening the read. If the land was developed, it would be available for building. Mr Kneen: We could not give any title what. ever for building, except to the adjoining owners, and we are selling to the adjoining owners who have the right, subject to the public user. We are only selling the right of user. Deemster Sir James Gell: What are you selling? Mr Kneen : The right of highway only. Demister Sir James Cell: I understood it was not highway. Mr Kneen : it is highway inasmuch as it was used by the public for a time, and was laid out and intended as a roadway. Deemster Sir James Gell: What benefit was it as a roadway there? Mr Kneen : None in the bast; but it was so used for a certain time. Deemster Sir James Gell : If it is a highway, it might be a legal question, if the Court is going to sanction it, what right you have to sell a piece of land which you say is a highway. Mr Kneen: We have sold two or three pieces under a special power in the Local Government Act, 1889, where it is declared that the word " land" shall include streets, and that if we sell, we shall give three weeks' notices in the news- papers. Deemster Sir James Cell: What you propose to sell is not the land, but only a public easement in the land. Mr Kneen: We are selling any right, title, or interest we have in it. Deemster Sir James Hell: The Court will hardly sanction It without. more information.

Corporation of Douglas.—Sale of Land, Victoria-road. 752 1 VN WAIT) COURT. May 30, 1899.

Mr Kneen : The power has been acted upon le several cases. It was acted upon in the case or Queen's-place, Parade-street ; in Duke-street, and in Athol-street in regard to the property buill on by Mr Chadwick. It was also acted on in the case of the Fleetwood Corner from time ' time. Those three cases I distinctly remember. Deemster Sir James Cell : It is either a high- way or it is iso higlhavay. I do not know what the. Town Commissioners have to do with it unless it be actually a. highway. Mr Kneen : Of course, we do not own any way, except for the purposes of highways. We only own the streets, so far as it is necessary for street purposes. It is possible to make an exchange or deal with land in many ways, and in the Act of 1889 a special provision was in- setted, whereby it was provided that the word "land" in section 231 of the Principal Act shall be deemed to include streets. Section 231 of thc Principal Act is the section which enables the Corporation or the Commissioners, with the con- sent of the Tynwald Court, to purchase or sell any lands. Deemster Sir .James Cell : Do you mean to say that that Act turns an easement in land, whenever you want to sell it into the actual ownership of the land? Mr Kneen: So far as we have any ownership in the street, we can sell it. We are here selling to the persons who have the other ownership in it. They are the owners of the sub-soil. We sell to them. We are getting rid of the public right in it. Deemster Sir James Cell : I understand ; but I think this Court ought to be very careful in giving their sanction. Mr Kneen : The petition expressly states that the Corporation do not guarantee any title, and that this sale is made for the extinction of any highway over the road. James Cowle, sworn, and examined by Mr : I am a builder and valuer in the Isle of Man. I consider lOs per yard is quite the value of the land. Mr Kneen: Do you consider the land is at all required for road purposes? Witness: No. I think it would he an injur y to the road. It is more of a nuisance than any thing else.

Corporation of Douglas.—Sale of Land. Victoria-road. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. 753

Mr Kneen: The agreement is subject to the approval of the Tynwald Court. As soon as the deed is approved of, it will be recorded in terms of the standing orders. I will ask that the prayer of the petitions be granted. There are two separate petitions and two separate sales It is quite clear that the piece of land is not required for street purposes. It is really a waste —more of a nuisance than anything else, and, so long as the pieces of land adjoining were in different ownerships, it was left open to form au access simply. That has ceased, it has become a recess in the road, and we cannot use it for any public purpose, such as breaking stones, because it would interfere with the access to the adjoin- ing property. It interfered with 'he proper for- mation of the footpath, and so on. The Cor- poration will make the footpath along the wall, and it will be an improvement to the neighbour- hood, instead of being an eyesore and a nuisance. Mr J. T. Cowell moved thst the prayer of the petition be granted. The Receiver-General: What will be the Mel that the Corporation are receiving for this? Mr Kneen: They are receiving £55 and £104- £159 for the two. Mr J. R. Kerruisb seconded the motion, and it was agreed to. *Subsequently Deemster Sir James Ge11, on the signing of the order on the petition, said: This peition is asking the Court to authorise the Corporation to sell the land, not the right or interest of the Corporation in the land, and the pe'.ittion does not show the nature of hte agreement. Mr Kneen: That deed will be recorded along with the petition. Deemster Sir James Gell: The petition will have to be amended, or I Ethan refuse to sign it. Mr Kneen promised to amend the petition.

PORT ERIN DRAINAGE. Mr Kneen: I appear for the Port Erin Com- missioners, who have petitioned for leave to borrow a sum of money to defray the cost of co npleting a new sewer at Port Erin. The peti- tioners also asked for leave to borrow a sum of money for the formation of a promenade or roadway at Port Erin. The matter was referred to a Committee, consisting of Deemster Gill, Mr Clucas, and Mr Mylchreest, and they have

Port Erin Drainage. 751 TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1899. made their report, and presented it to the Court on Friday last. From that report it appears that the Commissioners have withdrawn that portion of their scheme which related to the making of a promenade and roadway, on account of the boat owners and others objecting to it, but the Committee were satisfied that £450 was required for completing the sewer. They were satisfied that no one was to blame for the ad- ditional cost. Although the borings had been made as carefully as possible, they had gone through more rock cutting than was anticipated. The Committee arc satisfied that the work has been well and cheaply carried out, and have recommended that the sum of £450 be authorised to be borrowed for the purpose of completing the sewer. We now ask that leave should be given to borrow that sum of £450, at a rate of interest not exceeding £3 10s per oenturn per an- num, and to be repaid within a period of 45 years. On the motion of Mr Clucas, seconded by Mr Qualtrough, the prayer of the petition was granted.

GOVERNMENT HOUSE. Deemster Sir James Gell proposed the follow. ing motion:— That this Court, considering that the term of the lease of the Government House confirmed by the Government House Act, 1890, will expire on the 12th day of May, 1910, and that it is expedient that arrangements be made as to the future residence of the Governor or Lieutenant- Governor of this Island,—Resolve that his Honour the Clerk of the Rolls his Honour the Deemster Gell, and Messrs J. A. Mylrea, D. Maitland, and E. H. Christian be a Committee to consider the question of such residence, and to report to the Court whether it is advisable to seek a renewal of such lease, or to make other provision instead thereof. and otherwise to make such recommendations with respect to such residence as to the Committee may seem meet. The Committee to have power to take evidence. Mr Clucas : Might I ask his Honour the Deemster whether that reference would include the advisability or otherwise of surrendering the lease? *Deemster Gell: I think it sufficient to enable the Committee to consider the question of a sur- render, and, with respect to it, to make mention of it. The Committee are to be em- powered "to make such recommendations with respect to such residence as may to the Com- mittee seem fit." Government House. TYNWALD COURT, May 30, 1893. 755

Mr Micas seconded the motion, and it was agreed to. The Committee were appointed as stated in the foregoing resolution.

ELECTIONS BY BALLOT. Mr Quine asked what progress had been made by the Committee appointed as to the ballot at municipal and other elections. At the last Court the Chairman was not present. He thought the Chairman was Sir James Gell. Deemster Gen : I am not the Chairman, but 1 think the Chairman is Deemster Gill. II is a question which involves many considerations. The Court adjourned. --- The Keys sat in private for a few minutes, and then adjourned to the Tynwald Court at St. John's on the 5th July.

Elections by Ballot,