Tynwal D Court

TYNWAL D COURT.

DOUGLAS, THURSDAY, MAY 5, 1898.

Present (in the Council): His Excellency the Lieut.-Governor (President of the Court), Deem ster Gill, the Attorney-General, the Receiver- General, and the Vicar-General ; (in the Keys) Messrs John Joughin (Acting-Speaker), A. W. Moore, T. Clague, T. Allen, .1. C. Crellin, D. Maitland, E. H. Christian, W. Quayle, J. R. Kerruish, J. A. Mylrea, J. T. Cowell, J. R. Cowell, James Mylchreest, W. Quine, J. Qualtrough, J. D. Clucas, E. T. Christian, J. J. Goldsmith, R. Cowley, R. Corlett, and F. G. Callow. Mr Story, Clerk to the Council, and Mr Gelling, Secretary to the Keys, were in attendance.

PROCEDURE. 'The Governor : I propose that we should go on with the agenda as far as possible to-day, so as to lighten it when we next meet. The two important points are—first of all—the Bills Lw signature, in order to obtain the Royal assent, and the second important point is the resolution with regard to the Customs duties. I do not think either of those matters will take a long time, and afterwards we shall pi oceed as far as possible with the other business on the agenda.

BILLS SIGNED. The following Bills were submitted for signature ;—Merchandise Mc.rks; Bishop Barrow's Charity (Girls' High School); Port Erin and Port St. Mary Light ; Education ; St. Matthew's Church Bill.

TITHE COMMUTATION BILL. The Governor : The Acting-Speaker has called my attention to some little inaccuracies in the wording of one of the Bills, and I have given directions that they shall be corrected according to the original Bill passed by both branches. Mr R. Cowley : May I be allowed to point out that there is another inaccuracy as well. The Bill has been before us on several occas- ions--

Procedure.—Bills Signed.—Tithe Commutation Bill. 350 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898 .

The Governor : I think I must interrupt thc, hon. member. It will be corrected according to the Bill signed by me, and passed by the House of Keys. (Hear, hear.) *Mr R. Cowley : There is a mistake which may have occurred through the Bill being passed several times through the House. The Governor : I am afraid we cannot discuss this in the Court. I will see if there is any mistakes in the Bill, and see that they aro corrected myself. Mr R. Cowley : The mistake which I wish to point out The Governor: You cannot in this Court refer to a Bill that has been passed by the Legis- lature. If it is not according to that, it will he corrected; if it is according to that, it will go up for the Royal assent as passed by the Legislature. Tt is rot a question for discussion. *Mr R. Cowley : I wished to point out that there is an error in it as compared with what was passed by the House of Keys. rho Governor You cannot discuss that. Mr J. R. Cowell: Is the Bill before us now? The Governor : It is not. The matter dropped.

TOBACCO DUTIES. The Governor : In consequence of the action which has been taken in the Parliament of Eng- land with regard to the Customs duty on tobacco, it will be my duty directly to call upon the Attorney-General to move the resolution which stands in his name. I do not propose to go at all into the details of this question to- day. The details will be put before you, as they should be, in due order, when I make my financial statement. I shall only say at present why I think it is necessary we should pass this resolution to-day. The Customs authorities tell me that if we do not agree to this arrangement, which has been made by the British Parliament, and fall in with the alteration in the duties they will have to take tobacco out of the compromise and the allowance which is now made by virtue of the agreement which was come to, I think, in 1895 by my predecessor, Sir West Ridgeway, and which was certainly very good in many ways for the Island. I should be very sorry to see that agreement disturbed. Another reason is this, that I think it would be extremely inconvenient—almost impossible in fact—to levy a separate tax with regard to those duties without much expense, and I believe that the pre- Tobacco Duties. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 351 sent arrangements under the agreement made— the compromise, as it is called by the Customs —is convenient to us, and also most beneficial to the Island. If I thought we could wisely help ourselves, I would not propose this reduction. I do not think we could help ourselves ; I think we should hurt ourselves if we resist what we are asked to do. Otherwise I should at once ask you to refuse what we are asked to do. But I have thought very carefully over this question, I have used the greatest care and the greatest thought ss to what is best for this Island, and, personally, I have no doubt whatever as to the wisdom of passing the resolution now before us. The Attorney-General : I beg to move:— That, in lieu of the duties of Customs now pay- able on tobacco, there shall, on and after the six- teenth day of May, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight, be charged, levied, and paid upon tobacco imported into this Is'e. the duties following (that is to' say):— Tobacco, manufactured, viz.:— Oigars, the pound £0 5 0 Cavendish or Negrohead, the pound 0 3 10 Cavendish or Negrohead, manufactured in bond, the pound 0 3 5 Other manufactured tobacco, the pound 0 3 5 Snuff containing more than thirteen pounds of moisture in every one hundred pounds weight thereof, the pound 0 3 2 Snuff not containing more than thirteen pounds of moisture in every one hundred pounds weight thereof, the pound 0 3 10 Tobacco, unmanufactured, viz.:— Containing ten pounds or more of moisture in every one hundred pounds weight thereof, the pound 0 2 8 Containing less than ten pounds of moisture in every one hundred pounds weight thereof, the pound 0 3 0 This resolution, I think, must have been antici- pated by every member of the Court, and generally by the public at large, as soon as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his Budget speech. It is quite obvious that in the matter of tobacco—and the same really applies to tea—that we cannot possibly have, under existing arrangements, a higher rate of duty than that prevailing in the United Kingdom That arises from the arrangements existing between the Treasury and ourselves. Now, the present resolution is drawn up under the Isle of Man Customs Act of 1887—an Act of the Imperial Legislature. That Act enables the Tynwald Court to pass a provisional resolution

Tobacco Duties, 352 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 189?. with reference to the tariff of the Customs. I daresay it will be remembered that that Act was procured in order to enable the Tynwald Court to act with promptitude, instead of having to face the delay of procuring an Act of the Inn penal Legislature. By the provisions of the Act to which I have referred, the Tynwald Court is empowered "to impose, abolish, or vary any Customs duties in the Isle of Man, with the consent of the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, by resolution passed by such Court." That resolution remains opera Live for six months, or, if Parliament be then sitting, until the end of the current session of Parliament, -unless it is terminated by an Act of the Imperial Parliament being passed pre- viously, or by the publication of a Treasury minute to the effect that it is not probable that such an Act shall be passed. I thought it better to remind the Court, as a matter of this sort does not often come before it, that that is the powe,: under which we are acting at the present juncture. Now, in order to see the inevitabilit, of this resolution, you have only to take a very cursory glance at the history of the duties on tobacco. It will be remembered that previous to 1892 the policy had always been to keep the duties in the Isle of Man lower than those in the United Kingdom. (Mr J. R. Cowell : Hear, hear.) That was done in order to secure the payment of the revenue in the Isle of Man. Unless we had adopted that policy, we should probably have lost the great bulk of our revenue, because there is practically no way of col- lecting it, unless you can hold out some inducement for the payment of duties here instead of in the United Kingdom, or under some such arrangement as that which was come to in 1895— an arrangement which, I submit, was very beneficial to the Isle of Man. In 1892 the duties were levelled up as regards tobacco and tea, and then it became necessary to adopt a different principle altogether with regard to the collection of the revenue. And, first of all, it will be remembered that a sum was fixed upon between the Government of the Isle of Man and the Customs, and that is the amount to be paid to us in respect of duty. Afterwards questions arose between us and the Imperial Government as to whether or not we were receiving too much. Finally, a most beneficial arrangement was come to, by which we were to be paid according to what is called a "fiscal population"—a rate per heed calculated upon the con-

Tobacco Duties, TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 353 sumption in Great Britain. That really explains at once the position in which we stand. The tobacco duty is paid over to us on that population and the amount of consumption per head in England Now, once the duty is reduced in the United Kingdom, it follows, as the night the day, that it must be reduced in the Isle of Man. We cannot possibly expect to be paid a, greater sum than is being received by the Customs in respect of the duties on tobacco. Now, therefore, we have the whole question. If that arrangement, which, as his Excellency has said, was come to in 1895, is to remain in force, then we must reduce the duty. If that arrangement is not to remain, I should like to see the member of the Court who is bold enough to propose any alternative scheme. I may say that I Cace this reduction in the duty on tobacco with a certain feeling of cheerfulness, being myself—I was going to say a considerable consumer—but I will modify that, and say a consumer to a very respectable extent. I have, therefore, great pleasure in moving the resolution which stands in my name. •Mr Mylchreest, in seconding the resolution, asked what amount would be lost to the Manx revenue by the reduction of 6d per pound in tobacco duty. The Governor : It w11 he between £1,900 and £2,000 a year, according to the present calcu- lations But, in mitigation of that, I may say --speaking the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not from my own knowledge—that the reduction will not create a loss to the whole of that amount. Mr Mylchreest : In reality, I find that the reduction is only 4c1,, because there is a reduction in the quantity of moisture, which makes a difference of 2d per lb. in favour of our revenue, so that our actual loss of revenue will be only a little over £1,000. Mr J. T. Cowell : I would like to ask for an explanation why this reduction is postponed to the 16th of May. Is it not a fact that at the present time tobacco manufacturers have ceased working, and will not restart their works until this reduction takes place Is there any reason why the reduction should not take place to-day The Governor : I cannot tell you, personally ; because I do not know. The only reason is that they want to give time in regard to the rebate. Mr J. T. Cowell : The resolution says nothing about the rebate. If you say the rebate is to run

Tobacco Duties. 351 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898

from the time that the reduction is made in England, I am satisfied. The Governor : There is to be a rebate the same as there is in England. Mr J. T. Cowell : That is not stated in the resolution. The Governor : But there will be a rebate. Mr J. T. Cowell : Then I can take your assurance that the rebate will be from the time the reduction is announced in England ? The Governor : I suppose so. Mr J. T. Cowell : I can only vote for the resolution upon having that assurance. We know that at certain times tins Court has done injury to local industries; even if only to the extent of a fortnight, it would not be fair to do it. On your Excellency's assurance that the rebate will take place I will vote for the resolution, but not otherwise. The Governor : I have no doubt whatever that on manufactured tobacco the rebate is the same as in England. Mr J. R. Cowell : I intended to call the attention of the mover of the resolution to the very serious omission to which my bon, friend, the member for North Douglas, has made allusion. I think it was a very grave omission from his speech. This resolution, on the face of it, is a fiscal alteration, which is not to take place till the 16th day of the month, and I think the experience of the past, in this Island has always been that if any change is to take place in the Customs duties, it should take place at once. The assurance which your Excellency has made is, I think, eminently satisfactory, though, at the same time, we are bound to call attention to the subject, in the absence of any remark upon it by the mover of the resolution. Now, I listened with very groat interest to the remarks of the learned Attorney-General; but, notwithstanding the fact that he seems to assume that we are all in perfect harmony with regard to the fiscal arrangements of the Isle of Man, I feel bound to take exception to certain assertions of opinion made by him; and I, at all events, take this opportunity of dissenting against the principles which he asks us unanimously to agree to. I did take such exception years ago, in the days of Governor Walpole, and I very strongly opposed his mode of dealing with the duties of the Isle of Man. I opposed that principle subsequently, and I do so now; and though I admit that there

Tobacco Duties. TYNWAI.D COURT, May 5, 1898. 355 possibly is no sound and valid objection to the particular proposition which the Attorney- General submits to the Court to-clay, nevertheless I am bound to object to the reasons which he gave utterance to when making that proposal. I dare say in this particular, I am strongly opposing your Excellency's view, and I presume the view of most members of your Court, but I cannot allow the opportunity to pass unchallenged. With regard to the proposal itself, I suppose we must follow suit. But does it not occur to lion. members that even the fact that I have to admit that we must follow suit is in itself almost a humiliation? Why should an independent Legis- lature like that of the Isle of Man have to follow suit, because the Imperial Government do so and so ? Is this our Home Rule, our local control, and our independence ? If the policy which I advocated years ago, and which I main- tain to this hour, had been adopted, the Island would have kept control of its own revenue, and we should not have been forced, in circumstances such as the present, to follow suit because the Imperial Government had made an alteration. My principle is this—that it is the duty of the Isle of Man Government always to keep its duties under the duties imposed in England. I have given abundant reasons for that in the past, and I need not traverse the ground again ; but I will say this. The Attorney-General to-day has pointed out that there were only two courses to follow, either to keep the duties lower than they are in England, or to enter into something which he speaks of as the very satisfactory arrangement which was made in former days with the Government—made to some extent, I think, by Governor Ridgeway—perhaps originated by Governor Walpole—of arranging the duties of a civilised country on the basis of what he calls a " fiscal population." I never heard of anything which, in my opinion, is so absurd as that fiscal population. It is a fraud, a sham, a make- believe, and I challenge the learned Attorney- General to reply to me on that point. What is that " fiscal population ?" It is this. Owing to the fact that we have got now on the same basis with tea and with tobacco, as they charge in England, tobacco is imported in large quantities, and tea is imported in enormous quantities, and no duty is paid in this Island. It would be impossible to recover the duty on the imports. May I briefly refer to some of the arguments which were advanced years ago ? The induce-

Tobacco Duties. 356 'I'YNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. ment to a Manx importer to pay his duty here was the fact that he was paying something less. But when there is no advantage to the trader icy paying it here ; when all the conveniences are to pay it in England, to pay it on his invoice, to have all the trouble of the Customs work done in England, the Manx importer simply says—" I won't be bothered with the thing here "—and the articles are imported duty paid. But what happens when tea and manufactured tobacco are imported into this Island, and the duty is paid elsewhere ? The Attorney-General is right in saying that we must keep the duty lower or else enter into another arrangement. What is the arrangement that is adopted to get out of the difficulty produced by the equalisation of duties in England and the Isle of Man ? Something had to be done, and the "fiscal population" is brought in as a basis. Now may I ask hon. members for a moment to consider the fiscal population. The permanently resident population of the Isle of Man is somewhere about 53.000—if you like. say 55,000. We get into this Island during the year visitors numbering from 300,000 to 350,000 persons. Now what is done to ascertain the basis of the fiscal population ? A basis of this kind as laid down is, I say, an imaginary one. Visitors to the Isle of Man live in the Island about three days. I think three clays was the basis discovered by somebody. Accordingly. therefore, the 350,000 people who come to the Isle of Man as visitors are treated as so many thousand addition to the population of the Isle of Man,making it, if you like, for the purposes of argument, some 62,000 or 63,000 living in this Island for twelve months. Then, on the basis of An average, it is calculated that the 63,000 people 'n the Isle of Man consume so much tobacco per head and so much tea. Now, does it not occur to any man with a mind, that that basis is an utterly fallacious and absurd one ? Will you tell me that when you bring clown the visiting population to a continuous population for twelve months, that this 10.000 people only consume on the same basis as the native population ? Will any man in this Court attempt to defend that proposal ? The visitor comes here with his poc- kets full, even the working man has a large sum of money to spend. How does he live ? At the same rate as the average Manx- man—the farmers, the working men of the Isle of Man ? Nonsense ! He lives at ten times the late, and I am perfectly safe in saying that the Tobacco Doges. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1598. 357 quantity of cigars, the tobaccos of various manu- facture, the tea and the grog he consumes, are altogether different from that which the native population of the Isle of Man consume. Yet he is merely reckoned up in this way as being one of the residential population of the Isle of Man. I believe in the arrangement there was a little consideration shown for the visitor as being capable of spending a little more money whilst enjoying himself over here on his holiday. But still that is broadly the arrangement that was made. And I have to say this—that where the Government duties of any country have to be recovered on such a flimsy and shadowy foundation as this, I am bound to believe that it cannot be substantially correct and safe. There can only be one way by which you can ascertain what the duty ought to be—that is, by having the duty paid in this Island, and in the particular of tobacco by having the duty paid on the Island, and the duty less than in England we should encourage favourably, and, perhaps, con- siderably an important local industry. Now I suppose there is no use whatever my proceeding further with this matter—other than to say, had not the learned Attorney-General emphasised what he thinks this favourable arrangement made with the Imperial authorities, I might have lot the motion pass without a word of objection. But I interpose because I feel that, sooner or later, this country will realise that the arguments and facts which I very briefly offer to them are substantially right, and are based upon principles which I think are generally, if not universally adopted. I will ask the learned Attorney-Gene- ral, when he replies, if he can give me the case of any other country where the duties are re- coverable on such a basis as this. I have never heard of it, and, as I said in my opening observations, we are compelled to follow suit, as we are following suit to-day, not because we wish to do it, nor because we know of reasons for doing it, but merely from the fact that the Imperial authorities have made a sudden change. And I may point out the tight place we are in leaves us open to sudden attack, so that at any day our revenue may be found to be in an unsatisfactory state. May I not suggest to the governing authorities of this Island that any morning we may discover a very important fiscal alteration with regard to the tea duties, and we are living tight on the last farthing. I think that is a very

Tobacco Duties 3f-.8 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898.

great mistake. There ought to be more elas- ticity in our powers of dealing with revenue. We ought to be able to control and to deal with our revenue for our own interests, and not merely follow suit according to the operations of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. What is the fact ? Ho, to-day, is in possession of enormous funds. Are wo ? If I heard aright, before long, we shall hear from his Excellency that our finances are not in that flourishing state that we could desire, and we would like to see them in a better state. They are not in a very unsatisfactory state, but they may be in a state somewhat weaker than they were formerly, and I make these observations to-day with one object in view, at all events, and it is this—I do hope that members of this lower House will be per- suaded to take a deeper and more keen interest in the financial position of the Isle of Man. It has been the experience of the past—one which I have often deplored, and which, I hope, may be speedily remedied—that upon the Budget speech and those matters which arise under it, and matters which have special reference to the imposi- tion of duties, unfortunately the people's repre- sentatives have not taken that lively interest which they might have taken. We have left it too much to his Excellency and the Council, and I hope hereafter we may show a deeper interest in these matters, and express those opinions which we hear so very often outside the precincts of this Court. (Hoar, hear.) Deemster Gill: A word or two upon what has been said. I think the discussion on the nature of the arrangement by the hon. member is hardly wise or expedient at this juncture. This Island has entered—whether rightly or wrongly— into an agreement with the Imperial Government—to the payment of this duty. That arrangement was made some years ago. It was made with the full consent of this Legis- lature, both branches, and it was then thought, and it is thought by many members at any rate— whether the hon. gentleman agrees or not— that that was an advantageous arrangement. Now we have heard this morning what the principles of that arrangement were, and I think it is hardly advisable to re-open that question now, and in this way. The fact was this: The hon. member says the fiscal population is not a proper basis. If this calculation were made upon the population, the actual population of the Isle of Man, then I agree with

Tobacco Duties. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 359

him, and it would not be so, because in the summer we know that population is very largely augmented, and, therefore, it was necessary that when a calculation of this kind was made that that factor should be taken into account. Now then the extent to which it was taken into account is the matter with which we have really to deal, and I did not hear the hon. member say that he did not consider that had been calculated on a proper basis. I say it was calculated on a proper basis, and a very liberal basis, and it was consented to by the Legislature of this Island. Of course it is an agreement which can be opened at any time, but what I say is, is it wise at this particular juncture to re-open the whole of that arrangement when we are dealing with only one item in the arrangement—namely, tobacco. If it be bad, as is argued, with respect to tobacco, then it is bad with respect to every other duty paying article. On the other hand, if it is good as a whole, then it is good with respect to this particular article we are dealing with to-day. Well, now, the fact is this. The population of the Island, as the hon. member puts it, is some 53,000 persons. That is augmented in the summer by something like 300,000 visitors. The population is added to in that way, and, therefore, it is necessary to take that into consideration. What, now, is the result ? The result is that the fiscal population works out as against the actual population as 69,500 is to 53,000, the actual population. Mr J. R. Cowell : Those are last year's figures, I presume? Deemster Gill : They are last year's figurer. Of course the population may be increshe 1 by additional visitors coming to the Island. If they do come, then the proportion will be re- adjusted. 'The Attorney-General: The payment to the Insular Government goes up automatically 9C- cording to the number of visitors. Deemster Gill : So that is the position. Now, if we take 691, that represents visitors to the extent of something like 400,000 arriving in the summer—I do not think we have reached that yet, and, until we do reach that figure, 1 do not think it is wise to disturb the arrange ment which now .ubsists between us and the Imperial Government. Let us now look at the effect of this arrangement. What would be the effect of this change upon the trade'.

Tobacco Duties, 360 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898.

There is no doubt whatever it would be beneficial that we should assimilate our duties to those of England. Well, then, Icok at the effect upon the cost of collection if our duties were higher than the English duties, we should then have to search all the imports into the Isle of Man. We should require additional Customs machinery in order to collect our revenue in that particular. Then look at the effect of that upon the visitors who come to the Island if our duty were higher than in England. Every portmanteau, and carpet bag would have to be searched to see whether there was contraband. Mr J. R. Cowell: No, no. Deemster Gill (continuing) : Well, now, that would be a very serious matter. Mr J. R. Cowell : It has not been done for 25 years. Deemster Gill (continuing) : What then would be the effect upon the agreement which has ex- isted between the two countries? If we don't agree to this, no doubt the Imperial Govern- ment will say to us, " Very well, gentlemen, if you do not like the agreement, it will cease ; " and I venture to say that that would be a calamity to this country. Then look at the effect upon the consumer. Certainly it is for the benefit of the consumer that the duty should be reduced. Well, then, the only question left is the effect upon the revenue. His Excellency has told us that the effect will be that the revenue will be reduced by something like £2,000, but he says, at the same time, that the cheapening of this article will probably have the effect of more being used. The Governor : I do not say so on my own authority. That was given on the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Deemster Gill : Upon this ground I hope that no opposition will be offered to this proposal to-day. The question has been mentioned about the rebate, and his Excellency has given en assurance upon that point which the Court ought to he satisfied with. I hope that the resolution will he passed, and that it will be left to the future to re-model this arrangement between the two Governments, if, on mature consideration, we think it is desirable. Mr Moore. I think, sir, we all regret the loss of 'evonue which will probably result from the reduction in this duty, but, on the other hand, f think we must all rejoice at the fact that we

Tol acco Dotes. TYNWALD COURT', May 5, 1898. 361 are reducing a tax which falls much more heav- ily on the poor man than on the rich. With regard to this question of the fiscal population, I may, perhaps, say a word or two, as I have token considerable interest in it, and yet it is very difficult to say anything about it, because the disadvantages of the arrangement can be eloquently and easily talked about ; while the advantages of the arrangement are, for reasons which I do not propose to give the Court, not so easily talked about—it would not be desirable in the interests of this Island that they should be publicly known. I can only say, if my assurance is worth anything, that I have loolca(; into it very carefully, and I am satisfied that this Island is benefitted by the arrangement made, I believe, in the year 1892, by Governor Walpole, and modified in 1895 by Governor Ridgeway. A fatal objection to the old arrangement was the enormous amount of leakage that took place. I believe, under the present arrangement, whatever its defects—and no arrangement can be perfect—we get better value than we did under the old one, and, therefore, as a practical man, whatever objections there may be from a constitutional point of view— and, as a strong constitutionalist, I warmly sympathise with what the hon. member has said --I think this Island made an excellent bargain when it put these duties on the present basis, and I have much pleasure in supporting the resolution. The Attorney-General : It speaks wonders for the hon. member for Ramsey that he should have found an opportunity on this motion of making a great patriotic appeal to this Court, but I think really that a consideration of the commercial character of the resolution will lead members of this Court to believe that it was in- opportune—that speech, and that in reality we exist under circumstances of great advantage, and that it would he very difficult indeed to improve our position—that is looking on it, as the hon. member for Middle says, from a practical point of view. Now, although the hon. member for Ramsey agrees with the motion, he has fallen foul of the reasons I gave when in- troducing it. First of all, let me say, with regard to the question of rebate and the date from which this resolution is to take effect, that the date is regulated by the date on which the reduction takes effect in the United Kingdom. We have to reduce our duties here simultaneously with the reduction in England, if the existing comprom-

Tobacco Duties.. 362 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. iso is to continue. With regard to the rebate, that is a matter of Customs regulation. What- ever regulations are made and carried out in England with regard to That, I understand, will be carried out here. Mr J. T. Cowell : That will he inserted in the resolution? The Attorney-General: No, certainly riot. The resolution will stand precisely as it is, for it is one which is drawn up under an Act which deals simply with the question of tariff, and it would be quite out of place and ultra vires :0 this Court to Intrcduce any such element into this resolution. We are empowered merely to impose, or abolish, or vary existing duties, and we have to do that in order to carry out the existing arrangement between the two countries. We have to do that from the date it happens in England. Mr J. R. Cowell : Well, do you? The Attorney-General : I don't think I have said anything which calls for interruption. So much for the question of the rebate. Well, now, it is said we are really humiliated by being placed in the position we now occupy, and that the question of the fiscal population is—to use the language of the hon. member for Ramsey-- a sham; that there is no substance in it. With regard to that, let me say that either of one or two things must happen. We are now propos- ing to reduce the duties to bring them on to the same level as the duties in the United King- dcm. Does the hon. member advocate such a reduction, that it will hold out an inducement to pay the duty here? Then his proposition would be to make a further reduction—a larger reduction than that proposed by the resolution —such a substantial reduction as would knock another £2,000 off our present revenue, so that we should not suffer the degradation and humiliation of what I call the advantageous arrangement that we have made on this question with the Imperial Government. Could anything be more visionary, more unpractical, or, if carried out, more disastrous, than that sug- gestion. In 1892 it was found that we wanted more revenue ; that by means of a tariff on tobacco we could raise it ; and that was the only method by which it could be done. Mr J. R. Cowell: I deny that. The Attorney-General : It was one approved of by the Legislature at that time. We raised the duties and brought them on a level with the

Tobacco Duties. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 363

United Kingdom duties. From that moment a new arrangement had to be come to, and, as I said, the arrangement was to fix a certain sum, and the sum was fixed at that time, and it amounted, I think, to £19,680. Then the die pute arose, and the Customs refused to continue that arrangement on I he ground that we got too much. The system of fiscal population was re- sorted to, and what has been the result? That our revenue has grown under the new arrangement, and that for this year it is higher than it has been at any previous periol of our history. I think it has reached the figure of something like £19,967, so that surely I was justified, as a beginner in politics, in venturing an opinion that that system had proved advantageous to the Island, and that it was one we ought to congratulate ourselves upon. When we fin-1 that it is a fiscal arrangement which brings us more revenue, I feel I am justified in regarding it as beneficial to the Island at large. But if this system of population, which is such a sham and such a source of degradation to us, is to be abolished, what have we in its stead? Does the hon. member propose to resort to the actual resident population, and that we should only get our duty on the actual resident population, instead of upon the fiscal population? He could hardly propose that. What is the only possibl alternative? That we should undertake the collection of the duties ourselves, and, as I have already pointed out, you must lower them still lower—deduct another large slice off the tobacco revenue, before you can produce such a condi- tion of things as to render that possible. I think that answers the arguments which have been ad- duced by the hon. member for Ramsey. In con- clusion, he invites me to say in what other coun tries such a system prevails. I refuse the invi- tation with thanks, but this I will say without careering over the countries of the world to find an analagous system, that I know of no oilier country so advantageously placed with regard to its revenue among the dependencies of the Crown as the Isle of Man. The motion was then put and carried.

COMMITTEES' REPORTS. COAST EROSION. Deemster Gill : We are in a position at last to present a report. I now do so, and move that it be printed. Mr Maitland seconded the motion, s.rid it was agreed to. Committees' Report.—Coast Err sien, 364 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898.

ABBEY LANDS AND BARONIES: CUSTOMS. The report of this Committee was not ready for presentation.

LAXEY INNER HARBOUR. Mr. J. R. Kerruish : I have been informed that the Committee is not complete. Since the resignation of his Honour Deemster Drinkwater there has not been a member of this Court appointed in his stead, so as to enable the Com- mittee to hand in a report. Owing to that vhcaney the report cannot be tendered to-day. On the motion of Mr J. R. Kerruish, seconder' by the Attorney-General, Deemster Gell was appointed a member of the Committee, in succession to Sir W. L. Drinkwater. The Governor : Perhaps the Committee will be in a position to report at the next Court.

ELECTION BY BALLOT AND REGIS- TRATION OF VOTERS. Mr J. R. Cowell : On that matter I had a communication the other day from one of the public bodes of the Island, calling attention to the fact that I was a member of this Com- mittee, and pointing out that nothing had been done for 12 months. I found that this pro- longed delay had arisen owing to the change of members of the Council. The late Attorney- General was Chairinau of this Committee, and, owing to the arrangements that have been made, and the fact that we have not had a Court for a very considerable period, the late Attorney- General considered he was out of office, and I think to-day it will be necessary to appoint a new member of that Committee, when I hope the Committee will get to work. The Governor said that Sir 'Limos Gell was still a member of the Committee. Mr J. T. Cowell : This is a very important matter, and I am glad that some of the public bodies are moving I have tried for 12 months to get them to move. It is one of the most important matters in connection with elections. As his Honour the First Deemster has been appointed on another Committee, I shall follow the precedent laid down by yourself, and move that the present Attorney-General take the place of the late Attorney-General on this Com-

Abbey Lands and Baronies : Customs —Laxey Inner Harbour.—Election by Ballot and Registration of Votes. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 365 mittee. If necessary, I move that the report be presented at an early Court. Mr Quine : I second it, and, in doing so, I feel satisfied that the time has arrived when the Committee ought to go to work. The people in the country feel it very keenly that the matter has been so delayed. The Attorney-General : With regard to filling up these vacancies, I understand that Sir James Gell had already acted on the Committee. Mr J. T. Cowell : There las been nothing done. The Attorney-General : Although the appointment may have been made, still it was the individual that was wanted on the Committee, and I would put it to the proposer and seconder to substitute the name of Sir James Gell. Mr J. T. Cowell : I cannot agree to that. I do not think all the work ought to be placed on the willing horse. (Laughter.) The Attorney-General : If the hon. member thinks I am saying that to shirk work, he is very much mistaken. I am obliged to act if I am appointed. There was h desire to have Sir James Gen on the Committee. Mr T. Cowell : He was appointed as Attorney-General. The Attorney-General : I understand some steps have been taken already on the subject ; and he would be a more valuable member of the Committee than I should be. I cannot understand why lie should cease to be a member of tie Committee because he changes one office for another. Of 'course, persons may be described as Attorney-General or Deemster, but however they are named, they are appointed as indi vidual s. Mr J. T. Cowell : Did he not cease to be a member of this Court? The Governor I can assure the hon. member that he never ceased to be a member of this Court for a moment. It was very necessary that he should remain Attorney-General in the interests of the Island. Mr J. T. Cowell : No member of this Court has a higher opinion of the first Deemster, and his interest in the work of this Court than I have, but we have put him on another Com- mittee, and he has not hems here to have a chance to object to it, and it is rather unfair to put all the work on one.

Flection by Ballot and Registration of Votes. 366 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898.

Mr J. R. Cowell said the object of appointing the late Attorney-General was that his immense knowledge of law would be of service to the Committee. The Governor asked on what ground it was assumed that Sir James Gell was not on the Committee. He was on the !Committee. Of course, if the Court wished to discharge him, they could do so. Mr J. R. Cowell said he had written to Sir James, drawing his attention to the fact that the Committee had not met, and he had replied in a lengthy letter, explaining that, in his opinion, he s as not a member of the Committee. He (Mr Cowell) had good reason for supporting the appointment of the present Attorney- General. In the first place, he was a young man in the full strength of his days, and they ought to remember that )the Deemster, Sir James Gen, was not one upon whom they ought to impose work too readily. He thought the young members of the Court would naturally be elected to take more than their ordinary share of the work, and in the case of the learned Deemster, they ought to have some consideration for him. The second reason was that the present Attorney-General would be able to give them all the legal assistance they required. At the same time, his well-known advanced opinions and liberal views would be of immense service to the Committee. (Loud laughter.) The Governor : The Court will rule what the Court will have to do. Deemster Gell cannot decide what the rules of the Court are. Accord. ing to the rule of the Court, you must discharge him, and put somebody else in his place . Mr J. T. Cowell : We will not do that. Mr J. R. Cowell : Do you hold that the Com- mittee consists of Sir James Gell and others? The Governor : I do hold that he has not been discharged. Mr J. R. Cowell : I am bound by your deci- sion, but he says himself he is not a member of the Committee. The Governor : Sir James Gell cannot decide for himself. He cannot write to the hon. member deciding that he is not a member of the Com- mittee. Mr J. R. Cowell : To test the feeling of the Court, I beg to move, for reasons which I have already given. that Sir James Gell be discharged as a member of this Committee, and that his position he declared vacant. Election by Ballot and Registration of Votes. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 367

Mr E. T. Christian seconded. The Attorney-General, while agreeing with the ruling of the Court, pointed out that Sir James Gell had expressed no desire whatever to be re- lieved from his duties. Mr J. T. Cowell moved as an amendment that the matter be adjourned to the next Court. Mr J. R. Cowell: Then the Court must take the responsibility of no action. That is all. The amendment was carried, and the Court proceeded to the next business on the agenda.

HIGHROADS OF THE ISLAND. The Receiver-General said that the Board were not yet prepared to report. Mr Moore : Does the Receiver-General say when the report will be ready ? The matter has been delayed for month after month, and year after year. The Receiver-General : I think the hon. member has very little idea indeed of what was laid upon the Highways Committee to do. We have had 15 days or thereabouts of travelling, some of us coming in by the first train in the morning and remaining till seven in the evening, and we are not finished yet. We would have been finished last week if it would have been fine. I may say that we did not get the slightest help from the various Commissioners, and in the winter months we did as much as any Committee should be expected to do. I hope our report will be ready in a very short time. We, have only one or two days' more work in the south of the Island. I have gone over every road in the Isle of Man, and a good many of them on foot.

VENTILATION OF THE TYNWALD COURT CHAMBER. The Governor : That will have to be postponed. Mr J. R. Cowell : Why ? The Governor : I don't know. Mr J. R. Cowell: Can any one tell us who are the Committee ? (Laughter.) Mr J. T. Cowell: I cannot. Isn't the hon. member for Ramsey one ? (Laughter.) Mr J. R. Cowell: No ; he is not. This is a matter which ought not to be treated with the levity my friends on the right are giving to it. I think it was quite time this matter was taken

Highroads of the Island,—Ventilation of the Tynwald Court Chamber 368 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898 up, and if Mr Story can let me know who the Committee are, perhaps we can discover why they have not gone to work. After some conversation and search, Mr Mylrea said : I am sorry I have to emerge from obscurity, but I believe I must do so in the interests of honesty and sincerity. I am a member of that Committee. Major Stephen and the Clerk of the Rolls are also members. Mr Moore : The Clerk of the Rolls and Major Stephen are away unwell. If the object is to advance, I suggest that a new Committee should be elected. The matter was postponed.

AMENDMENT OF STANDING ORDERS OF THE TYNWALD. The Governor : Is there any report on this subject ? (No answer.) It is for members of these Committees to report to the Court. It is a great mistake that these Committees should go on for a long time.

DOUGLAS CORPORATION : BUILDING BY-LAWS. Deemster Gill : I am prepared, your Excel- lency, with a report in this matter, and I now present it to the Court, and move that it be printed. Mr Mylrea seconded. Mr J. T. Cowell : As a member of that Com- mittee, I think if his Honour the Deemster would consent to read that report, it would be found that we could pass the by-laws this after- noon. I do not think the Court would object to passing them. There are some necessary alterations. The main clauses are owing to the town being incorporated. There is a doubt whether some of the clauses passed by the Court relating to the Town Commissioners are applicable to the Corporation. Deemster Gill : It is a very simple matter indeed, but there is a practical difficulty in the matter. We have not the original report actually in the Court. Mr J. T. Cowell : The report has been printed and circulated privately among the members. The report was ordered to be printed.

Amendment of Standing Orders of the Tynwald, —Douglas Col poration : Building ByLaws TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 369

DOUGLAS SEWERAGE. Mr Mylrea : I was going to say that before the report on the Douglas Sewerage passed, I would like to place on reaord the fact that no delay has taken place on the part of the Committee, but we are waiting for an appointment with the Town Council, which I believe is due to some delay with the engineer.

VENTILATION OF THE TYNWALD COURT CHAM BER. The Governor said the Committee consisted of Sir W. L. Drinkwater, Mr A. W. Moore, and Mr J. T. Cowell. The Court has only to appoint another person in place of Deemster Drinkwater. Mr J. R. Cowell moved the appointment of the Receiver-General. Mr Kerruish seconded. The Receiver-General : I hope the Court will not put me on this Committee. Ventilation is not one of my strong points. (Laughter.) Mr J. T. Cowell : T sin sorry to doubt the Clerk of the Council, but I am certain the matter was raised in this Court, and that the lion. member for Ramsey was placed on the COM - mittee, inasmuch as lie was the prime mover in the matter. The Governor : I think the best way would be to postpone this to the next Court, and we would look -up the record and be quite correct. Mr Mylehreest moved the postponement. The records were then produced, and the Governor announced that the Committee, appointed on 3rd December last, consisted of the Clerk of the Rolls, Sir James Gelb the Speaker, Mr J. T. Cowell, and Major Stephen. No one needed to be appointed. It was for the Com- mittee themselves to act and appoint a convener. Mr J. R. Cowell : I hope the members of the Committee will tare warning.

COMMITTEE ON HARBOURS. Mr J. R. Cowell : The Court will remember that on the 16th December we proceeded to appoint a Committee with regard to the harbours, and a difficulty arose at the time owing to the changes which were taking place in the constitution of the Coun- cil, and really the matter was held over until the appointments were filled. I think we elected a

Douglas Sewerage.—Ventilation of the Tynwald Court Chambers.—Committee on Harbours. 370 TYNWALD couin May 5, 1898.

certain number of them; if I am correct, we elected all the members with the exception of one. Well, it might be the duty of the Council now to proceed to fill no their vacancy. The Governor read the official minute of the 16th December, which showed that no members had been appointed. The Committee was appointed as follows:— The Attorney-General, the Archdeacoa, Messrs Alydrca, J. R. Cowell, and A. W. Moore.

PUBLIC -VACCINATION. The Vicar-General moved the following resolution : - That a sum not exceeding £9) be applied from the general revenue of this Isle to defray the charges of the pub_ic vaccinators for the districts of Thuglas, C Istletown, Peel. and Ramsey. under the Vaccination Act. 1878, incurred curing the year ended 31st De2cmber, 1898. Mr Mylrea seconded the motion, and it was assented to. Tee Vicar-General then moved as follows:— Whereas, it is exnedient that efIpers appointed for the better enforcing of the Acts relating to vaccination should be continued for another year : Betolved,—That a sum not exceeding £50 be voted from the general revenue of this Isle for this purpose during the financial year ending 31st March, 1899. Mr Qualtrough : May I ask ore question with respect to the offi:ers appointed for the better enforcement of the Vaccination Act? I wish to know under what act we appoint such officers. I was not aware that there were any provisions in the Act of 1878, and have not been able to find ally statute providing for the appointment. The Governor : It is under the Vaccination Act of 1876. Mr Qualtrough: That Act, I think, is entirely obsolete by the passing of the Act of 1878, which covers the whole ground. I am asking under what authority the payments are made. The Governor : The prat tine, has bean that the Goveraor appointed the vaccination enforcing °flit era with the approval of the Tynwald Court. Governor Walpole began it first. On the 14th April, 1893, a Committee was appointed to in quire into the working of the Vaccination Acts. They-reported on 13th May, 1893. and suggested the appointment of vaccination enforcing-officers. On the 20th May, six officers were appointed at the sum of £50 per year each. Thus tie Tynwald Court properly did all it could to carry- out the recommendations of the Committee.

Public Vaccination. TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1898. 371

—His Excellency added: The Registrar has informed me that in 1897 the number of births was 1,459 ; vaccinations, 1,176 ; and deaths under one year, 256; so that out of the total number of births, only 145 are not accounted for. (Hear, hear.) I think that is very satisfactory. Mr Qualtrough : I am quite satisfied. The motion was carried.

REGISTRARS' SALARIES. The Vicar-General moved the following resolution :— That a sum not exceeding £233 be applied from the general revenue of this Isle for the purpose of providing remuneration for one year from 1st. January, 1898. to the Registrar-General, Regis- trars, and Sub-Registrars, under the Civil Regis- tration Acts—to the Registrar-General, £60; to the Registrars at Douglas and Rinisey, and to the Sub-Registrars a sum not exceeding £173 in the aggregate. Such payments to be subject to the approval of his Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor. Mr QuaRough. seconded the motion, and it was carried unanimously.

EXt..,...NSES OF MIDDLE ELECTION. The Attorney-General moved :— That a committee be appointed to examine the accounts connected with the election of a member of the House of Keys for Middle Sheading in March last. He said : This motion is under the Election Act —the usual thing. The Clerk of the Rolls has generally been a member of the Committee, but he is away from the Island, and the matter is urgent. Mr Moore seconded the motion, and it was adopted. The Committee was appointed as follows :— Deemster Gill and the hon. members for North Douglas, Messrs Mylrea and Cowell.

PIER POLICE. The Receiver-General moved the following resolution: - That a sum not exceeding £450 be applied from the passenger duty and harbour dues raised or to be raised at the harbour of Douglas, under the Isle of Man Harbours Acts, 1874 to 1884, in defray- ing the cost of maintaining a staff of harbour officers for the regulation of the traffic on the Victoria Pier, Douglas, for the year ending 31st March, 1899. He said: This is the usual vote we get every year for the police on the pier.

Registrars' Salaries.—Expenses of M delle Election.—Pier Police. 372 TYNWALD COURT, May 5, 1698.

Mr Claguo seconded the motion, and it was carried.

QUEEN'S PIER, RAMSEY. The Receiver-General moved as follows :— That a sum not exceeding £400 be applied out of the passenger duty levied at the harbour of Ramsey, under the Isle of Man Harbours Act, 1883, towards the maintenance and repair of the Queen's Pier, Ramsey. He said : As time goes on the repairs to the deck of the Ramsey Pier will become heavier and heavier almost every year, but we are keeping it, I think, in very good repair and order. Mr Allen seconded the motion, and it was carried.

THE ASYLUMS BOARD AND THEIR ACCOUNTS. The following notice appeared on a supplemental agenda:— Mr J. R. Cowell called attention to—(1) The state of the accounts of the Asylums Board; (2) The proceedings now being taken to recover old rates said to be due and recoverah:e; and (3) The matter of the audit of the accounts of the said Board: and, if necessary, to move a resolution respecting the matters referred to. The hon. member said : The matter which I have given notice of, which is on the supplemental agenda paper, I do not propose to bring before the Court at this late hour. It is a matter of great importance, and a matter which I wish to deal with leisurely, and I shall ask the Court to deal with it carefully. Therefore, with your permission, I ask to have it placed on the agenda of the next Court. The Governor: I think that is wiser in every way. The Chairman of the Board, Sir John Goldie-Taubman, is off the Island. I would remind hon. members that it is desirable when they intend to propose motions to give early notice, as the publication of supplemental agenda papers entails further expense. Mr J. R. Cowell: The cause of my notice only came to me a few hours before I gave notice to your Excellency. The Court rose.

Queen's Pier, Ramsey.—The Asylums Board and their Accounts.