38 Slade Roy Jenkins Interview

INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS The last major interview Roy Jenkins gave, in November 2002, was to Adrian Slade, on behalf of Liberal Democrat News and the Journal of Liberal History. Roy Jenkins, since 1987 Lord Jenkins of y primary in- remains the best prime minister Hillhead, first entered terest in recent that the country never had. He parliament in 1948. It times has been certainly shares with Churchill my writing,’ that rare gift of continuing to lead seems hard to believe he says. ‘I don’t political thinking while writing of a man who still gets ‘Mknow whether reading the papers lengthy, elegant and highly read- is useful but I still like to keep in able books. Anyone who has not up at around 6.30a.m., touch with the political process.’ read his Asquith and Gladstone is goes for a walk, reads Following his much praised biog- missing out on fascinating politi- raphy of Churchill, his new book, cal history. the newspapers for Twelve Cities, which he modestly Roy Jenkins started in senior an hour and a half dismisses as ‘rather self-indul- office as Minister of Aviation gent’, has just been published, in Harold Wilson’s government over breakfast and and he is working on a biography of 1964. He was soon given spends the rest of the of Franklin D. Roosevelt. ‘It will the Home Office, where, dur- be relatively short, about 70,000 ing his two and a half years, he morning writing a few words,’ he says. ‘It’s mainly for the introduced a series of reforming American market.’ That may be, measures, particularly in the fields thousand more words but it is an even bet that, short of sex discrimination, race rela- of his next book. No or long, Liberal Democrats will tions and penal reform, of which want to read it too. he remains rightly proud. He also doubt his afternoons We talked in his room in the made sure that David Steel’s pri- are spent equally busily House of Lords, where he has vate member’s bill to change the spoken in debate only a few times abortion laws was given full time researching the detail since giving up the leadership of and backing. of which his books the Liberal Democrats peers nearly In the late 1960s he became five years ago. ‘I said something on the Chancellor who got an un- are always full. He has Iraq recently but I don’t believe that stable, post-devaluation economy also been Chancellor ex-leaders should get in the way of back under control. ‘Sometimes their successors too much.’ being Chancellor is like trying of Oxford University For many older people with to build sandcastles on the beach since 1987. an interest in politics Roy Jenkins just below the high tide line,’ he 6 Journal of Liberal History 38 Spring 2003 INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS says, ‘But in the end I had some independent commission on popular in the Tory Party in the success.’ That success just failed to electoral reform. ‘I put a lot of seventies when they perceived it win the 1970 election for Harold effort into that,’ he says. ‘It took as a protection against some kind Wilson, but Jenkins returned as nearly a year, part of which I of Stalinist Socialist threat. They Home Secretary in 1974, when was working full time.’ So far his have fallen away now, although the principal challenge was in- proposals have been ignored, or why they haven’t come round to tense IRA activity. at least not implemented. it again, I don’t know. If I were a Were there any lessons to be Did he see any hope for them in Conservative today, which I find drawn from this experience in dealing the future? difficult to imagine, I would be with Islamic terrorism today? ‘I am not sure that I see much strongly in favour of it, if only ‘I think it is an intractable short-term hope, but I do see on the most narrow grounds of problem,’ he says ‘And I am very medium-term hope. I’ll tell you self-interest.’ sceptical that it will be helped by why. The climate has changed and Roy Jenkins himself in fact any invasion of Iraq. However is continuing to change. It is very served in two minority govern- that is done, and I do have a pretty noticeable that nobody would ments – 1964–66 and the first fundamental objection to it: I am dream of setting up a new elected parliament of 1974. not convinced that it will reduce authority of any sort these days What had been his attitude to rather than increase Islamic ter- with first-past-the-post. And possible party co-operation in those rorism against the West.’ therefore I think the House of days? When Roy Jenkins did not Commons, as a bastion of first- ‘I have always worn party af- succeed Wilson in 1976, as some past-the-postism, is becoming filiations fairly lightly,’ he says, might have expected, he was increasingly isolated. It is rather adding hastily. ‘Don’t set the appointed President of the Eu- remarkable that these days no- alarm bells ringing with that. I ropean Commission, where he body, even those most sceptical am not going to leave the Lib- worked until the formation of in the government, would dream eral Democrats. But certainly in the SDP in 1981. of proposing it for other bodies. ’64 I remember being very keen Did he regret not having become Look at the Scottish Parliament, on keeping all lines of commu- prime minister? the Welsh Assembly, the European nications to Jo Grimond well He qualifies his reply with a elections, the elected element of open, particularly when I need- broad smile. ‘Well, I would have the House of Lords, the London ed Liberal support. And in ’74, liked very much to have been Assembly. It is difficult to imag- even more strikingly, I won my prime minister,’ he admits ‘But I ine the Commons holding out own qualifications when I put am not sure how much I would indefinitely when all its outlying a paper to the cabinet in early have liked the job at the time. I bastions have fallen down.’ spring proposing a Speaker’s thought I’d say that to the retir- But wasn’t the attitude also a Conference on electoral reform. ing president of Brazil when I great deal to do with majorities in Of course, I was shot down very meet him in Oxford tomorrow. parliament? heavily. Harold Wilson wasn’t He may share my view. I also said ‘As we pointed out, slightly totally opposed but Barbara it to John Major when he asked cynically but correctly, in our Castle wrote later in her diaries me, and in return I asked him report – “When political parties that “Roy came to us with some whether he regretted having been have the will for electoral reform preposterous scheme from his prime minister. He appeared to they don’t have the authority and instinctive Liberal coalition- enjoy my question.’ when they have the authority mindedness. We sent him away Earlier in our meeting I had they don’t have the will” – and with a flea in his ear.”’ explored with him his most not even Asquith’s Liberal Party He knew Jo Grimond well in recent, perhaps his last, major was immune from that. But it is a the 1960s and they used to talk contribution to British poli- knuckle point,’ he says. ‘For exam- socially together about co-opera- tics – his chairmanship of the ple, electoral reform became very tion and realignment. Journal of Liberal History 38 Spring 2003 7 INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS Did he think Grimond was a David Steel him joining the Liberal Party tainly did not think himself ac- good leader? rather than forming a separate cursed that he wasn’t there. It was ‘Yes. He opened up the field of and I al- party. ‘Some people wanted that, said to be a joke made by Owen, Lib/Lab co-operation and made and I did discuss it,’ he says. ‘But, although it was not really his style, the Liberals a much more serious ways got as I recall, it was David Steel’s that “Roy claims to love Liberals party, although he did not get view, which I shared, that this but he has never really spoken to very far with Harold Wilson with on very would have made much less of a one who isn’t called Grimond or his suggestions of an arrange- well, but breakthrough into the new poli- Bonham-Carter.” Quite untrue, ment in ’65. Actually he himself tics.’ So in 1981 four rather differ- of course, and I suspect not really cooled on co-operation later. then some ent politicians joined together to David Owen’s joke. Perhaps John For example, he was very cool found the SDP. Pardoe invented it?’ about my ’79 Dimbleby lecture.’ people ‘Bill Rodgers was always a Amid the 1981–82 Alliance In many respects this lecture on close friend and ally of mine,’ says negotiations on seats ‘when Bill the BBC had reflected Grimond’s said: ‘they Roy Jenkins. ‘Shirley slightly less Rodgers played the hard man, earlier views about realignment. would, close but also mostly an ally. The although it all seems rather trivial ‘But he did come round. He ac- odd one out was David Owen, now’, Roy Jenkins courageously tually came to Warrington during wouldn’t partly because he had about as went on the by-election stomp the by-election in ’81 and found little liberalism in him as Jack once more, this time winning himself quite impressed.

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