INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS

The last major interview Roy Jenkins gave, in November 2002, was to , on behalf of Liberal Democrat News and the Journal of Liberal History.

Roy Jenkins, since 1987 Lord Jenkins of y primary in- remains the best prime minister Hillhead, first entered terest in recent that the country never had. He parliament in 1948. It times has been certainly shares with Churchill my writing,’ that rare gift of continuing to lead seems hard to believe he says. ‘I don’t political thinking while writing of a man who still gets ‘Mknow whether reading the papers lengthy, elegant and highly read- is useful but I still like to keep in able books. Anyone who has not up at around 6.30a.m., touch with the political process.’ read his Asquith and Gladstone is goes for a walk, reads Following his much praised biog- missing out on fascinating politi- raphy of Churchill, his new book, cal history. the newspapers for Twelve Cities, which he modestly Roy Jenkins started in senior an hour and a half dismisses as ‘rather self-indul- office as Minister of Aviation gent’, has just been published, in Harold Wilson’s government over breakfast and and he is working on a biography of 1964. He was soon given spends the rest of the of Franklin D. Roosevelt. ‘It will the Home Office, where, dur- be relatively short, about 70,000 ing his two and a half years, he morning writing a few words,’ he says. ‘It’s mainly for the introduced a series of reforming American market.’ That may be, measures, particularly in the fields thousand more words but it is an even bet that, short of sex discrimination, race rela- of his next book. No or long, Liberal Democrats will tions and penal reform, of which want to read it too. he remains rightly proud. He also doubt his afternoons We talked in his room in the made sure that David Steel’s pri- are spent equally busily , where he has vate member’s bill to change the spoken in debate only a few times abortion laws was given full time researching the detail since giving up the leadership of and backing. of which his books the Liberal Democrats peers nearly In the late 1960s he became five years ago. ‘I said something on the Chancellor who got an un- are always full. He has Iraq recently but I don’t believe that stable, post-devaluation economy also been Chancellor ex-leaders should get in the way of back under control. ‘Sometimes their successors too much.’ being Chancellor is like trying of Oxford University For many older people with to build sandcastles on the beach since 1987. an interest in politics Roy Jenkins just below the high tide line,’ he

6 Journal of Liberal History 38 Spring 2003 INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS

says, ‘But in the end I had some independent commission on popular in the Tory Party in the success.’ That success just failed to electoral reform. ‘I put a lot of seventies when they perceived it win the 1970 election for Harold effort into that,’ he says. ‘It took as a protection against some kind Wilson, but Jenkins returned as nearly a year, part of which I of Stalinist Socialist threat. They Home Secretary in 1974, when was working full time.’ So far his have fallen away now, although the principal challenge was in- proposals have been ignored, or why they haven’t come round to tense IRA activity. at least not implemented. it again, I don’t know. If I were a Were there any lessons to be Did he see any hope for them in Conservative today, which I find drawn from this experience in dealing the future? difficult to imagine, I would be with Islamic terrorism today? ‘I am not sure that I see much strongly in favour of it, if only ‘I think it is an intractable short-term hope, but I do see on the most narrow grounds of problem,’ he says ‘And I am very medium-term hope. I’ll tell you self-interest.’ sceptical that it will be helped by why. The climate has changed and Roy Jenkins himself in fact any invasion of Iraq. However is continuing to change. It is very served in two minority govern- that is done, and I do have a pretty noticeable that nobody would ments – 1964–66 and the first fundamental objection to it: I am dream of setting up a new elected parliament of 1974. not convinced that it will reduce authority of any sort these days What had been his attitude to rather than increase Islamic ter- with first-past-the-post. And possible party co-operation in those rorism against the West.’ therefore I think the House of days? When Roy Jenkins did not Commons, as a bastion of first- ‘I have always worn party af- succeed Wilson in 1976, as some past-the-postism, is becoming filiations fairly lightly,’ he says, might have expected, he was increasingly isolated. It is rather adding hastily. ‘Don’t set the appointed President of the Eu- remarkable that these days no- alarm bells ringing with that. I ropean Commission, where he body, even those most sceptical am not going to leave the Lib- worked until the formation of in the government, would dream eral Democrats. But certainly in the SDP in 1981. of proposing it for other bodies. ’64 I remember being very keen Did he regret not having become Look at the Scottish Parliament, on keeping all lines of commu- prime minister? the Welsh Assembly, the European nications to Jo Grimond well He qualifies his reply with a elections, the elected element of open, particularly when I need- broad smile. ‘Well, I would have the House of Lords, the London ed Liberal support. And in ’74, liked very much to have been Assembly. It is difficult to imag- even more strikingly, I won my prime minister,’ he admits ‘But I ine the Commons holding out own qualifications when I put am not sure how much I would indefinitely when all its outlying a paper to the cabinet in early have liked the job at the time. I bastions have fallen down.’ spring proposing a Speaker’s thought I’d say that to the retir- But wasn’t the attitude also a Conference on electoral reform. ing president of Brazil when I great deal to do with majorities in Of course, I was shot down very meet him in Oxford tomorrow. parliament? heavily. Harold Wilson wasn’t He may share my view. I also said ‘As we pointed out, slightly totally opposed but Barbara it to John Major when he asked cynically but correctly, in our Castle wrote later in her diaries me, and in return I asked him report – “When political parties that “Roy came to us with some whether he regretted having been have the will for electoral reform preposterous scheme from his prime minister. He appeared to they don’t have the authority and instinctive Liberal coalition- enjoy my question.’ when they have the authority mindedness. We sent him away Earlier in our meeting I had they don’t have the will” – and with a flea in his ear.”’ explored with him his most not even Asquith’s Liberal Party He knew Jo Grimond well in recent, perhaps his last, major was immune from that. But it is a the 1960s and they used to talk contribution to British poli- knuckle point,’ he says. ‘For exam- socially together about co-opera- tics – his chairmanship of the ple, electoral reform became very tion and realignment.

Journal of Liberal History 38 Spring 2003 7 INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS

Did he think Grimond was a David Steel him joining the Liberal Party tainly did not think himself ac- good leader? rather than forming a separate cursed that he wasn’t there. It was ‘Yes. He opened up the field of and I al- party. ‘Some people wanted that, said to be a joke made by Owen, Lib/Lab co-operation and made and I did discuss it,’ he says. ‘But, although it was not really his style, the Liberals a much more serious ways got as I recall, it was David Steel’s that “Roy claims to love Liberals party, although he did not get view, which I shared, that this but he has never really spoken to very far with Harold Wilson with on very would have made much less of a one who isn’t called Grimond or his suggestions of an arrange- well, but breakthrough into the new poli- Bonham-Carter.” Quite untrue, ment in ’65. Actually he himself tics.’ So in 1981 four rather differ- of course, and I suspect not really cooled on co-operation later. then some ent politicians joined together to David Owen’s joke. Perhaps John For example, he was very cool found the SDP. Pardoe invented it?’ about my ’79 Dimbleby lecture.’ people ‘Bill Rodgers was always a Amid the 1981–82 Alliance In many respects this lecture on close friend and ally of mine,’ says negotiations on seats ‘when Bill the BBC had reflected Grimond’s said: ‘they Roy Jenkins. ‘Shirley slightly less Rodgers played the hard man, earlier views about realignment. would, close but also mostly an ally. The although it all seems rather trivial ‘But he did come round. He ac- odd one out was David Owen, now’, Roy Jenkins courageously tually came to Warrington during wouldn’t partly because he had about as went on the by-election stomp the by-election in ’81 and found little liberalism in him as Jack once more, this time winning himself quite impressed. And later they, be- Straw and David Blunkett. Owen Glasgow Hillhead, but following of course we had that remarkable was arguably a Social Democrat the highs of the first two years the meeting at the cause too but never a Liberal in any 1983 election result inevitably in Llandudno.’ David Steel sense. He despised not just Lib- came as a disappointment. Although he was not part of it erals but liberals with a small l. Would he have done anything dif- himself, how did Roy Jenkins view was one of David Steel and I always got on ferently and was the supposed attempt the earlier example of co-operation very well, but then some people to unseat him as Alliance leader dur- – the Lib/Lab Pact? nature’s said “they would, wouldn’t they, ing the election a factor? ‘I think it was a worthwhile because David Steel was one of ‘I had felt the beginnings of exercise but I don’t think there Social nature’s Social Democrats and the ebb tide in the by-election was enough of a union of hearts, Democrats Roy Jenkins was one of nature’s and the Falklands War accelerated as Gladstone once said about Ire- Liberals.”’ that. Also the natural tendency to land, so I don’t think it was ter- and Roy Was that important to him, perpetuate a two-party system ribly productive for the future. I given what, I suggested, were the two had begun to reassert itself. As to actually think it made it more dif- Jenkins strands within the SDP, one support- the rather disagreeable meeting ficult for David Steel to do what ing David Owen and the other the David and I had at Ettrick Bridge, he wanted to do subsequently.’ was one of other three? I don’t think it affected the re- Hadn’t the Labour Government nature’s ‘It was a little more complicat- sult much. I have never borne benefited more than the Liberals? ed than that’ he said, adding, sur- deep resentment against David ‘Well, the Liberals didn’t want Liberals’ prisingly, ‘Shirley voted for Owen about that, although I told him an election in 1977.’ in the leadership contest of 1982, afterwards that he did not handle John Pardoe said he did.’ although I think she regretted it things very well, and he agreed. ‘Ah but John Pardoe always afterwards. In fact Shirley and I David has many high accounts in loathed Social Democrats. He were the two most instinctive my balance and one small debit and Healey couldn’t get on at all liberals of the four. Bill Rodg- has never left a scar.’ and he never liked me much ei- ers, for whom I had the greatest David Owen is said to have ther. He was a curious figure but respect, always slightly believed in believed that Roy Jenkins had I was interested to read about him a more instinctively Morrisonian always envisaged merger with the again the other day.’ approach to discipline, which Liberal Party as inevitable. ‘I cer- How much, if at all, had David Shirley and I never did.’ tainly never envisaged us fighting Steel’s views influenced the creation Roy Jenkins insists firmly that each other. Where I thought the of the SDP? he had always envisaged an alli- Alliance might lead I am not ‘He was enthusiastic about ance with the Liberals, and that quite sure. I think I could sum the Dimbleby lecture and he Shirley Williams soon agreed with up my view with that Churchil- came to see me in Brussels two that. ‘Owen was never wholly lian speech on American relations or three times subsequently. We convinced and that was the real “Let it roll like the Mississippi were looking to a future of col- fault line,’ he says. ‘The Lland- and things will take their course.” laboration.’ udno Assembly and its incredible And, as you know, I subsequently Remembering long-standing atmosphere sealed it all for us, but became very keen on merger’. party speculation about the con- David Owen was in America. It He feels that over fifteen years versations between them, I asked wasn’t quite specifically that he the merger has proved very suc- whether there been any talk of had refused to come but he cer- cessful as a marriage of minds.

8 Journal of Liberal History 38 Spring 2003 INTERVIEWING ROY JENKINS

There had been very little back- have seen more but I think we In retrospect he believes biting, bitterness and jealously. were let down by the perform- that his first period as Home The original high aim, to change ance of the Conservative Party. If Secretary gave him his greatest the face of British politics, had there had been a smaller major- satisfaction as a minister and, not been achieved but the Lib- ity, things might well have been although he was reluctant to eral Democrats had made politics different,’ he believes. ‘I said to answer my question, he says he more tolerable and the fact of the Blair, and I think he rather likes would like to be remembered party’s presence had undoubtedly sweeping perspectives of that by future generations as some- changed the Labour Party. ‘I don’t kind, “Lib–Lab rivalry turned the one who, during a long political think that necessarily damages 20th century into a Tory century life, remained consistent in his our own long-term prospects’ in the way the 19th had not been. broadly left-of-centre views he says, ‘but without the pres- I don’t want to see that happen in without having swung violently ence of the Liberal/SDP Alliance the 21st century.”’ about. ‘But also’ he concludes and our merged party there is no Given his obvious disappoint- ‘For managing, and it is an doubt that Labour have spiralled ment on that score, not necessarily a increasingly rare thing in Brit- downwards, and Blair would not disappointment shared by all Liberal ish politics, to combine being have been able to impose the re- Democrats, what did he think of the a fairly major politician with formism on the Labour party that concept of ‘effective opposition’? many outside interests, without he has.’ ‘I think that is the best role for being dominated by them.’ Roy Jenkins was one of Paddy now that we can possibly pursue. With which assessment most Ashdown’s most enthusiastic sup- I believe full amalgamation is people would readily concur. porters in his bid for closer links dead, at least for some time to with Blair’s Labour Party. come, but I don’t think Paddy A shorter version of this interview was Did he think more should have was wrong to pursue it. It’s often first published in Liberal Democrat happened subsequently? worth pursuing holy grails that News in January 2003 ‘Yes, I would have liked to you don’t necessarily achieve.’

RESEARCH IN PROGRESS If you can help any of the individuals listed below with sources, contacts, or any other information — or if you know anyone who can — please pass on details to them. Details of other research projects in progress should be sent to the Editor (see page 2) for inclusion here.

Cornish Methodism and Cornish political identity, 1918–1960s. The Liberal Party and the wartime coalition 1940–45. Sources, Researching the relationship through oral history. Kayleigh Milden, particularly on Sinclair as Air Minister, and on Harcourt Johnstone, Institute of Cornish Studies, Hayne Corfe Centre, Sunningdale, Truro Dingle Foot, Lord Sherwood and Sir Geoffrey Maunder (Sinclair’s PPS) TR1 3ND; [email protected]. particularly welcome. Ian Hunter, 9 Defoe Avenue, Kew, Richmond TW9 4DL; [email protected]. The Hon H. G. Beaumont (MP for Eastbourne 1906–10). Any information welcome – especially from anyone having access to The political life and times of Josiah Wedgwood MP. Study of the material about the history of Liberalism in Eastbourne – particularly political life of this radical MP, hoping to shed light on the question on his political views (he stood as a Radical). Tim Beaumont, 40 Elms of why the Labour Party replaced the Liberals as the primary popular Road, London SW4 9EX. representatives of radicalism in the 1920s. Paul Mulvey, 112 Richmond Avenue, London N1 0LS; [email protected]. The letters of Richard Cobden (1804–65). Knowledge of the whereabouts of any letters written by Cobden in private hands, Recruitment of Liberals into the Conservative Party, 1906–1935. autograph collections, and obscure locations in the UK and abroad for a Aims to suggest reasons for defections of individuals and develop an complete edition of his letters. Dr A. Howe, Department of International understanding of changes in electoral alignment. Sources include History, London School of Economics, Houghton Street, London WC2A personal papers and newspapers; suggestions about how to get hold 2AE; [email protected]. (For further details of the Cobden Letters of the papers of more obscure Liberal defectors welcome. Cllr Nick Project, see www.lse.ac.uk/collections/cobdenLetters/). Cott, 1a Henry Street, Gosforth, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE3 1DQ; [email protected]. Liberal foreign policy in the 1930s. Focussing particularly on Liberal anti-appeasers. Michael Kelly, 12 Collinbridge Road, Whitewell, The Welsh Liberal Tradition – A History of the Liberal Party in Newtownabbey, Co. Antrim BT36 7SN; [email protected]. Wales 1868–2003. Research spans thirteen decades of Liberal history in Wales but concentrates on the post-1966 formation of the Welsh Liberal policy towards Austria-Hungary, 1905–16. Andrew Federal Party. Any memories and information concerning the post- Gardner, 17 Upper Ramsey Walk, Canonbury, London N1 2RP; 1966 era or even before welcomed. The research is to be published [email protected]. in book form by Welsh Academic Press. Dr Russell , Centre for Liberals and the local government of London 1919–39. Chris Humanities, University of Wales Institute Cardiff, Cyncoed Campus, Fox, 173 Worplesdon Road, Guildford GU2 6XD; christopher.fox7@ Cardiff CF23 6XD; [email protected]. virgin.net.

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