Exploring Historical Anthropology Jacques Le Goff and Aaron J

Home , History of mentalities, Jacques Le Goff

Exploring Historical Anthropology Jacques Le Goff and Aaron J. Gurevich Leonore Scholze-Irrlit z

Scholze-Irrlitz, Leonore 1994 : Exploring Historical Anthropology. Jacques Le Goff and Aaron J. Gurevich . - Ethnologia Europaea 24: 119-132.

The different styles of research of two historians - Jacques Le Goff and Aaron J . Gurevich - are analysed and compared. Both understand anthropology as th e basis of a new all-encompassing attempt at synthesising historical studies, and produce ind ependent results by taking into consideration lit erary-hermeneut ical, ethnological and structuralistic methods, thus forming two different co existing "styles of relationship" of medieval mentality. Le Goff and Gurevich contribute to historical anthropology and to a publicly effective renewal of the science of history through explanatory, deterministic and contemporary exam ination. An interview with A. J. Gurevich on the relationship between social history and the history of mentality is published as an append ix.

Dr. phil. Leonore Scholze-Irrlitz, Eichbergstr. 23, D-12589 Berlin-Wilhelmsha gen.

This paper deals with the styles of research and space (Le Goff 1970: 215 and 1977: 25, Le and the methods of Jacques Le Goff and Aaron Goff & Chartier 1990: 13). Significant for the J. Gurevich - two historians from very differ "Annales" school and also for Le Goff are fur ent scientific traditions. The contribution both ther the comparative methods of historical in of these medieval specialists have made to his terpretation and the concept of "histoire to torical anthropology reveals new dimensions tale" (Le Goff 1983 : XI, Honegger 1977: 13-14, in the science of history. Burke 1991: 29). The "Annales" went through three stages of development, the last of which is characterized by J. Le Goff, E. Le Roy Ladu J. Le Goff and the new rie and M. Ferro's takeover of the journal and historiography in France by a turn to the examination of fundamental The contemporary French science of history human feelings and modes of expression and was significantly influenced by the journal to the complexes of childhood, death, fear etc ., "Annales", founded 1929 by M. Bloch and L. linked to an expansion of the concept of source. Febvre and their associates. Starting with a Le Goff also influenced the "third stage of de criticism of the working and cognitive prac velopment" by assuming Presidency of the tices of positivism and the "history of events", "Sixieme section" of the "Ecole Pratique des an interdisciplinary base was established Hautes Etudes" in 1972, and by the subse which worked in close cooperation with a new quent founding of the "Ecole des Hautes understanding of sources and geared itself to Etudes en Sciences Sociales" in 1975 (Le Goff socio-psychological questioning. Le Goff who 1989b: 162). 1 (like F. Braudel, G. Duby or E. Le Roy Ladurie A fundamental element of Le Gaffs working perhaps) fits into this tradition, does not carry methods is his comprehensive idea of sources, out regional studies, but following M. Lom which is in a state of constant development bard's study of time and space in Islam, deals and encompasses everything created by man. with the interpretation of the world of con Le Goff also uses various methods from other sciousness and feelings in terms of real time disciplines such as comparative literature and

8* 119 ethnology in order to decipher his sources. His structures are the precondition for every caus works reveal that sources have three main al explanation. Using structuring as a method, characteristics: 1. most sources are fragmented he succeeds in linking and ordering the facts of and always require mutual comparison; 2. complex material. Two stages of structural some sources appear to be disguised reality, analysis can be distinguished in Le Goffs which is why questions are often asked about works: first of all - space-time studies and the relationship between concept and reality; later, structural analyses of medieval literary 3. for the early Middle Ages the sources are texts. Key concepts used to structure the mate almost invariably indirect and can only be de rial are culture, ideology, imagination, values, ciphered by iconographical, linguistic and nat popular and learned culture. In Le Goff the ural scientific methods. idea of structure is used in the methodological In Le Goffs works the analysis of social sense as "categorical conception". Unlike M. place and time is at the centre of his observa Aymard for example, who describes the func tions of space and time which are the tradi tion of structure and conjuncture primarily as tional categories of historical cognition, which a means of classification, Le Goff uses struc is in accordance with French tradition cf. M. tured questioning as a means of explanation. Halbwachs. This is revealed most concisely in In medieval literature, for example, Le Goff his examination of the difference between the asks if, and to what extent, the images and "time of the Church" and the "time of the symbols are a record of historical reality (Le trader" (Le Goff 1984: 13 and 1990: 87, Halb Goff 1990: 392 and 221). Following Levi wachs 1985: 101). Just as in his works on Pur Strauss very closely he tries to analyse the plot gatory- which I will deal with in greater detail of certain novels by looking at the codes for below - a great radical change in medieval food and clothes. Structural points of view of society is brought into the centre of play i.e. fer new cognitive possibilities for Le Goff also man's changing mastery of the factor of time, a in the framework of methodical considera change which could be seen as heralding a new tions, as human thought and worldview are era. Le Goff, whose mediev al period stretches explained as constituent parts of social rela from the third to the nineteenth century, ex tionships on different levels in literary texts. amines how, over long periods of time, avail This idea of a network of relations appears in able collective images and ideas fall into cer hermeneutical and structural interpretations tain space-time dependencies and how socie as opposed to a linear determinant of basis and ty's ideas can be decisively influenced. His superstructure and also contrary to spectac analyses show how as part of rationality, cal ular-metaphorical interpretations . In some of culating thought (and associated behaviour) Le Goffs chosen examples, however, the dan can free itself from magical thought. Le Goff ger remains of not being able to piece together outlines two different systems of logic which adequately the individual pieces after a text belong to different lifestyles and perspectives, has been broken down. The completion of a and on which different social organisation is structural analysis through hermeneutical based. analysis leads to a better understanding of the In his analyses, Le Goff also uses the meth whole and it is here, as often happens with Le ods of structure which, thanks to F. Braudel, Goff, that his examples provide a stimulus for have become synonymous with the French further research. structural history, and which began to develop In general Le Goff uses the idea of mentality in the works of sociologists, economic histori and ties it in to his research. Starting with E. ans, ethnologists and anthropologists in the Durkheim, twentieth century usage of the con 1920s . Thus influenced, Le Goff was stimu cept of mentality in France began with L. lated greatly by G. Dumezil's studies of the Levy-Bruhl and M. Mauss who introduced the structural triad in Inda-Germanic thought, term "collective ideas" in association with it and by C. Levi-Strauss' myth analysis (Le Goff (Durkheim 1967: 46, Levy-Bruhl 1921: 5, 1989b: 158, Dumezil 1989) . He holds that Mauss 1989, vol. II: 158). In view of the idea of

120 mentality which has become ynonymous with more recenL Ftench hi toriography and The main concepts of A. J. Gurevich whose blurredne s i often criticised in Ger Gurevich began his historical investigations many, Le Goff asks if this problematic term with studies on the social structure of Scandi should be developed or allowed to disappear navia and England from the ninth to the elev (Oexle 1981: 88, Le Goff 1989a : 31). He under enth century whereby he became aware of the stands the ''hi ·tory of mentality" as the history significance of socio-psychological questioning. of "the collective psychology of societies". To During the Soviet Union's "Thaw" of the sec research this, he concentrates on mentalities ond half of the 1950s, the possibility arose of delimited in space and time, and by group and discussing the methodology of the social sci class. In so doing, he goes beyond P. Aries and ences. Gurevich thus realised that the idea of G. Bouthoul, who regarded mentality as a fea social formation was an unsuitable means for ture that might describe the society of an en explaining history and found support among tire era (Le Goff 1988: 219 and 1989a: 21, 27- several other historians in the Soviet Union. 29). Gurevich to this day still has much in common With specific examples such as the devel with the working methods of linguists and opment of the sociologica l triad of priest , war semiotics such as Yu. Lotman who raised the riors and peasants , and the "origin of Purga issue of the connection between the modes of tory' ', Le TOff examines vocabulary, yntax, literature in history, and determinants ofliter figures of speech, concepts of pace and tim e, ary work structure. Gurevich also tries to use gestures and symbols. Le Goff opened up new or develop structural methods of analysis and possibilities for historical analysis with his de description when researching social and cul piction of the origin of Purgatory. Firstly he tural phenomena (Gurevich 1991b: 438-444). showed that the developm nt, of collective Gurevich goes on to question the general thought in images does not remain nebulous feudalism model because it does not represent but becomes rooted in space; secondly he a synthesis of a possible multitude of special showed that there are also stages of devel cases (Gurevich 1966: 182). Following M. Web opment with regard to the images and collec er's ideal types he is developing an independ tive impressions of social groups - this issue of ent method of theory and model building in the relationship between images and social re history with the help of"categories". He is thus ality allowed meaningful opinions to be ex working with a comprehensive anthropological pressed which left aside the danger of anthro idea of culture in contrast to other Soviet re pological constants; thirdly, when developing searchers who mostly deal only with spiritual the idea of Purgatory, the opposing influences culture. In semiotic models of structure, cul of reality, images and ideology and particu ture is understood as "meta-language", as a larly the close relationship between the imagi system of differing mental and psychological nary and the ideological become extraordina conditions of human behaviour in a given so rily plastic (Le Goff 1982: 411, 413 and 1984: ciety at a given time; culture also covers all 185-187, 200, 274-275, 289-291, 399); lastly, fields of human life and experience, general to a certain extent Le Goff overcomes the me attitudes and habitual ways of thinking as thodical problem of purely selective contin well as types of worldviews. Gurevich's idea of uous association of meaning and social pro culture is thus similar to other Russian and cesses, when he explains how, on the basis of Soviet scientists such as Karsavin, Likhachev, hitherto barely perceptible social changes in Bakhtin and Kashdan. He divides the cate the Middle Ages, "mental revolutions" took gories which represent the basic semantic in place in connection with far-reaching social ventory of a culture into cosmic and social cat changes. egories. The cosmic categories are those which constitute culture. The respective configura tions of the categories build not only different levels of culture within a society, but also dif-

121 ferent levels in the development of social sys of a "dialogue" (Gurevich 1986: 335 and 1991a: tems (Gurevich 1991b: 373, Yastrebiskaja 378-379); secondly, his attempt to approach 1990: 131-133, Lotman 1981: 26, Gurevich the system of collective ideas; thirdly, his ef 1978: 13, 15 and 18). In regarding social sys forts to take the methodical path along the tems as totalities, Gurevich overcomes the "Grotesque" model (which it permits really simple dichotomy of basis and superstructure. well) in order to develop the specifics of a "pop This methodical approach is particularly clear ular attitude of mind"; and fourthly, the way in his analysis of the Germanic "Institution of he draws up differentiated categories and sys Giving" which could be regarded as a spec tems of questioning, which enable him to ac ifique form of thinking and acting. Giving is cess both popular culture and learned culture. also linked with economic functions and dem The central idea of "dialogue" in Gurevich's onstrates the origin of a graded social hierar creative understanding of history , which for chy with differing forms of dependency . Look him represents the basis of possible research ing at this complex of closely related political, into popular culture, can also be found in other socio-ethical and economic elements which can Russian and Soviet conceptions such as in be studied in symbolic coherence, Gurevich Mikhail Bakhtin and Yuri Lotman. Bakhtin achieves a more comprehensive explanation developed the theory of dialogue relationship than G. Duby, for example, who with similar in linguistic texts and the relationship be material only asks about function (Gurevich tween text and readers. 2 In discussing and 1968: 136 and 1970: 304, Duby 1984: 66-68). continuing Bakhtin's thesis of the "carnival istic culture of laughter", Gurevich uses the Popular culture as a significant constituent ideas of the "Grotesque" and the "Paradox" in of the medieval cultural system medieval culture, and demonstrates a system Over the past twenty years Gurevich has de of collective ideas which does not regard myth voted a great number of his works to the prob and reality, the serious and the light-hearted, lem of popular culture. Whilst these issues experiences and visions of life on earth and of were attracting interest in west European tra the transcendental world as mutually exclu dition from Herder and the Romantics, they sive, but united in consciousness (Gurevich have their own history in Russian develop 1986: 307). ment. The difference between Russia's geo-po litical size and its economic backwardness in the last century has given rise to more studies Le Goff and Gurevich on Purgatory of its own history, and concentration on a spe As a comparative synthesis of what I have said cific, deeper tradition of popular culture; Bakh above, I would like to examine Le Goff's and tin's and Gurevich's works should therefore Gurevich's different approaches in more depth be regarded in this light. Gurevich develops using Purgatory as an example. While Le Goff the problem of popular culture from his model is looking for the rational elements in the vi of the differing layers of culture and religion sions of the Hereafter on the origin of Purga within the medieval perception of the world. tory, Gurevich concentrates on mythical The idea of world view which is geared to ethn thoughts. He proceeds in a similar way to the ological and philosophical techniques , docu ethnological, folkloristic (in the sense of fairy ments a clear awareness of research methodol tale analysis and interpretation) and philo ogy (Gurevich 1978: 353 and 1991b : 16). It sophical studies on mythical thought when he assists the mutual elucidation of isolated his compares two different visions of roughly the torical facts and how they fit together, and same period: that of"Thurkill" who lived in the offers the possibility of combining specific as English county of Essex, noted in 1206 by the pects of an era. Characteristic of Gurevich's Cistercian monk Ralph of Coggeshall, and that approach to popular culture is: firstly the way of the Holstein peasant Gottschalk, noted in he concentrates on sources (e.g. visions), 1189. 3 Although the different spatial ideas whose development is essentially the product lack strict organisation, Gurevich takes the

122 spatial differences as qualitative differences. of other methods leads to independent conclu He relates them to the consciousness of the sions when approaching this problem in the people as though they were linked with specif same manner . He uses historico-philological ic feelings. Unlike Le Goff it is not a case of and hermeneutical approaches to situate the outward differences in the individual places of development of the concept of Purgatory at the the Hereafter, or of clear departments; in close of the twelfth century. As a starting point stead, Gurevich portrays the places of puri for his studies he systematically chooses the fication, particularly in relation to the idea of existence of a physical place and the existence the mythical place, thus similar to Cassirer's of words such as "purgatorium" or "gestus". characteristics of mythical thought (Gurevich Gurevich, however, observes and studies the 1984: 58 and 62). 4 aesthetic and mythical symbols and elaborates Using a differentiated comparative analysis Thurkill's attitudes through "close reading" (P. of motives, Gurevich shows that the system of Burke). He concludes that Purgatory had long relations between popular and learned culture been an integral element of belief and popular was not one-sided or schematic even in the culture even by the early Middle Ages (Le Goff Middle Ages. Ideological Christian dogmatic 1984: 232, 240 and 1983b: 82; Burke 1988: IX). teaching is not influenced by visions of the In the given context, the value of symbols Hereafter according to a universal model, but and images is brought into question. Gure from various other sources, here for example vich's conclusions can be compared with G. from Cistercian monks. That is why it is pos Dumezil's works on the mechanics of mythical sible to distinguish variations in the relation thinking. For Dumezil, mythical thinking lays ship between Christian and popular ideas of in between dream and language thinking, space and time. "whereby it from dreams gets the character of This above-mentioned network of relations the pictorial, the dramatic and the generally can generally be applied to the Middle Ages, symbolic, and from speech, the character of the according to Gurevich. The historian of culture clear, the articulated and the generally coher must approach his material with a knowledge ent". He maintains that no change takes place of structure, so that he may benefit from folk in language, but that important relationships lore and its stock of fairy-tale motifs , and use (causal relations, similarities and opposites) ethnological works on the idiosyncrasies of represent the dawning of consciousness in mythical thought. Over and above this, it is translated form in images and scenes, without true of medieval mythical thought that new ever leading to a "disassociation of the whole" ideas can be made to correspond to long exist (Dumezil 1959: 234). ing ideas and can be believed according to the Without equating forms of medieval thought laws of fairy tales. Everything numerical with with mythical thought (as previously said, Gu regard to time, space and weight etc. remains revich too stresses the syncretism of pre-Chris inexact. 5 tian and Christian thought), questions arise From these premises the source material of relating to the theoretical fixing of this "as the "visions" gains a different value than in Le sembled, pictorial and logical nature" (Dume Goff, who hardly refers to it. The clear re zil). In his portrayal, Gurevich does not sur search process and the open way of asking pass a descriptive and illustrative method, and questions permit the assumed precondition to obstacles arise which reveal mechanisms in be amended when the result of the studies is the psychic sphere. He raises doubts, however, known. A different prism from in Le Goff or about Le Gaffs approach, whereby he, given Ph. Aries arises. While they maintain that the economic and political development of Purgatory did not emerge generally as a con town culture, brings together the theological cept until the fourteenth and fifteenth centu triad of Heaven-Purgatory-Hell and the soci ries, they stress that something like Purgatory ological triad of praedicatores-bellatores-lab could have existed much earlier without a lin oratores to explain the origin, and sees these guistic label (Eliade 1986: 15). Le Gaffs usage triads as manifestations of a change in the

123 structures of consciousness with the beginning search for different, elementary units of struc of the eleventh century (Gurevich 1983b: 87). ture in language and relationships etc. In this In my opinion, the different interpretations, tradition, Le Goff and Gurevich are again, in whereby Gurevich does not dispute the emer the twentieth century, pursuing a renewal of gence of the idea of Purgatory in twelfth and the science of history which has been moulded thirteenth century dogmatics, arise because by ethnology and structuralism. connections are made between the different In my opinion this approach to the science of varieties of social and religious experience. history which has been inspired by ethnolog Gurevich and Le Goff describe two different ical questions and results, contains three im co-existing "styles of relationship" and the portant features: 1. an integral way of looking question of"how entry to the supernatural can at things in which geographical conditions, so be won, from whom, how and with which ques cial relationships , forms of production and be tions for man and his relations with his fellow lieving, and bills of rights are studied in rela men" (Brown 1986: 26-27). It is therefore tion to each other; 2. specific forms of the un shown that it is not a matter of whether the derstanding of "the alien" are developed; 3. mental structure determines social structure, following C. Geertz' "thick description", an ex or vice versa, but that it is a matter of interac tensive transparence of the research process is tion. Here the possibilities of the history of striven for (Davis 1986: 45; Benedict 1955: 191 mentality are inestimable as a contemporary and 206; Geertz 1983: 7-43; Ginzburg 1984: concept of bringing to light the totality of dif 204). Firstly, transparence means that the ferent levels of mind. bases of scientific discourse can be made more effective by asking questions, and through sources. Secondly, the possibility arises of tak Concluding remarks ing history beyond a learned audience and I return to the relationship between anthropol making it accessible to the public, which is the ogy and history, which was very important for case with Le Goff and Gurevich. Understand the development of history as a science. Start ing and explaining without being rash with ing with the Enlightenment with its natural their judgement are common to both their isation of the idea of man through which the styles. The main emphasis in Le Gaffs and cultural field (state, morality, family etc.) Gurevich's idea of an "histoire totale" is, how should have been brought closer to the empir ever, different: Le Goff studies dependencies ical sciences, the more precise opinion arose at between economic and social changes for the the end of the eighteenth century that anthro twelfth and thirt eenth centuries through reli pology was really a historical discipline or even gious ideas, impressions and gestures. For him an empirical science, rather than a pure nat "totality" means progress toward new themes. ural science. Kant brought these interrelations Gurevich, however, through his categories of together into a succinct methodical expression culture as constituent parts of the perception and made clear distinctions between purely of the world, chooses a different approach, theoretical sciences, and empirical and applied which finds expression in the openness of the sciences. Anthropology is the empirically uni questions he raises - both are particularly evi fying science of man. In the French scientific dent with regard to the genesis of Purgatory. tradition - Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rousseau Finally, it should be emphasised that Le etc. - the history of anthropology within the Goff and Gurevich defend the methods of a historical sciences of man is, on the one hand, "history of problems" and of a deterministic the history of the emancipation of thought model of historical explanation, in the face of a through constantly renewed dogmatic turn to a straightforward narrative historiog schemes, and on the other hand the process of raphy. The history of mentalities and the scientific generalisation. Levi-Strauss, for ex imaginary is based upon a richer concept of ample, also strove for a new level in the ob man which reaches out into the psyche. In this jectivity of scientific understanding, in his is expressed an admiration of man who is act-

124 ing according to his wishes, images and ideas, the way our questions are put. We then put because the producer is always placed over the these questions to the people of the past. These product. people no longer exist, but there are texts and features which could be used as historical sources. In this sense, I think that the science of Interview with A. J. Gurevich* history is a dialogue between us and the people Scholze-Irrlitz: of the past, between our culture and past cul When reading about the history of mentality tures. I feel that this dialogue is not merely a and whilst preparing my dissertation on Ber string of metaphors, but something more seri thold von Regensburg (Irrlitz 1988) and ous, as each generation of historians is forever searching for questions I could ask my sources, putting new questions to the same sources and I was astounded by your article "Izuchenie cultures, which can in fact answer many, mental'nostei" (The study of mentality) in the though perhaps not all, of them. So in a way a journal "Sovetskaya Etnografiya" (Soviet Eth dialogue develops, which is prompted not only nography). In it you list the questions that you by us, but perhaps also by medieval man. That have asked in your own works such as: "trak is, if one reads objectively and thoughtfully tovka prostranstva, vremeni i istorii, ponima those historical features or works which reflect nie mesta cheloveka v obshchei strukture mi the world view of people of the past , one can rozdaniya, obraz prirody i sposoby vozdeist find out things one did not ask about, i.e. I put viya na nee ot trudovykh do magicheskikh, questions to them, and they answer me. It otnoshenie mira zemnogo i mira transendent could, however, be that they tell me things I nogo i osobonno sootnoshenie officialnoi i in did not ask, and then make me ask new ques tellektualnoi kul'tury z narodnoi ili fol'klornoi tions. Thus a dialogue develops. That is one kul'turoi. (The study of space, time and his way of looking at it. tory, understanding man's place in the general The question then arises of whether I, as a structure of the Universe, images of nature contemporary person, am putting questions to and means (from work to magic) of influencing the sources which are important to me as a it, the relationship between life on Earth and man of the late twentieth century, but which transcendental life, and especially the interre were of no importance to men of antiquity? Do lationship between official and intellectual cul you understand the danger? I am asking ques ture, and popular or folkloric culture.) tions of ancient man's world view which have You then say, however, that these questions been dictated by my own world view, which is are not appropriate to the historical material, clearly different . Are my questions not then which I did not fully understand. distorting their world view by bringing prob lems to the fore which for them were not at all pressing? Gurevich: I asked a similar question at the beginning I am of the opinion that a historian's produc of my article on Berthold von Regensburg. tivity depends on the way he asks questions: Take the concepts of "personality" and "time" . the more correct, interesting and adequate the They are interesting for the twentieth century question he can put to his sources, the more man, but did the thirteenth century man, even answers he will inevitably get from them. Berthold, discuss them? It could be proved Where does the historian get his questions? I that I have made it appear so, as he was in believe that they are primarily dictated by his terested in other things, yet I raised this par surroundings, that is, we are not able to put ticular issue and thus distorted his perception questions to the sources about things we do not of the world. When I read Berthold von Re find interesting. This means that our culture gensburg I asked myself this question. You and sense of belonging in the present dictate have studied him, have I understood it cor particular interest to us which are reflected in rectly?

125 Scholze-Irrlitz: mentality - everyone has mentality, but be Yes. cause mentality is on a plane of our conscious ness that we can not define. We speak prose Gurevich: without knowing it. It is something intangible. Do you remember the parable of the five tal When we study the perception of the world, ents or five pounds? I was amazed by it. I read however, I think that this perception (like a it without thinking of the questions I had selection of particular ideas which exist with asked in, for example, my book "Categories of out being consciously expressed) and mental Medieval Culture", and I suddenly discovered ity show through in particular aspects and cat that in this parable he asked this same ques egories of this perception of the world. I would tion but about the person. So what is a person? say therefore, that to a certain extent mental It is obviously characterized by features such ity and world perception are either two sides of as position, time, year, etc. Yet I was amazed the same coin or perhaps more precisely that that a thirteenth century man recognized that world perception is a particular expression of time was such an important aspect of person. mentality. To a certain extent we can list cer At that time traditional history writing was of tain categories of world perception: space, the opinion that the problem of time was not time, the Hereafter, eternity, wealth, freedom, discussed until the fourteenth century . We can need, right, etc., behind which there hides a see this in Le Goffs article "The time of the kind of magma of human feelings and impres Church and time of the trader". He studies the sions. They do solidify somewhere, however, age of the merchants from fourteenth and fif and it seems to me that they solidify to form teenth century material, yet Berthold raised one's perception of the world. this issue in the mid-thirteenth century, nat urally through the eyes of a thinker and Scholze-Irrlitz: preacher of the time. This was not the age of Where do you see the main constituent of the the merchant, but the age of salvation of the culture historical idea of mentality - in this soul. So at whom was this sermon directed? magma perhaps? Primarily at the citizens and town dwellers as in other "sermons". Not only is this the age of Gurevich: salvation of the soul but also the age of crafts I think so, because it is inexhaustible and de men and merchants. I was surprised, there fined for and by itself when we ask questions fore, that the issue I am raising today had such as how people perceive the various as already been raised but in a different interpre pects of their social, religious, political or nat tation. ural life and how they relate to them. Does your question have anything to do with this? Scholze-lrrlitz: What do you consider the most important ad Scholze-Irrlitz: vantages of approaching culture historical re Yes, and I would like to ask what the relation search through mentality? In the 1950s the ship is between the central categories you re term "mentality" was not used and was not in searched in, for example, your book "Catego use until the 1960s and 1970s. You did not ries of Medieval Culture", and mentality. refer to mentality very often in your 1972 work "Categories of Medieval Culture". Its use is Gurevich: widespread today, hence my question about its Mentality is a particular socio-psychological advantages. condition which is not always defined. One could ask what is your religion - protestant, Gurevich: atheist? How do you view the world? One could I must digress a little. Unlike Le Goff, I do not say, materialistically. So these questions can consider myself a historian of culture or a his not be asked - not because they don't deal with torian of mentality. I was brought up a social

126 historian, and that I remain. I started to study Gurevich: the agricultural history of Germany and That is quite correct. Ladurie also started out England, i.e. traditional issues of social struc as an historian of the peasants and came to ture and feudal exploitation, at this University realise the necessity of clarifying all these sub under Professors A. Y. Nyussychin and Kos jective aspects of their behaviour in order to minsky. understand what really happened to them. It is the same with Georges Duby .

Scholze-Irrlitz: Scholze-Irrlitz: I have read your works and that I can imagine. Do you see any limits to the use of the term mentality, or any difficulties resulting from Gurevich: the basic impossibility oflimiting and defining Fine. I gradually came to the conclusion that I it? would not be able to solve any further prob lems of social history if I did not study the Gurevich: spiritual horizon of the people concerned, be You know, every historian who refers to men cause we usually had some kind of abstract tality or studies its categories always says that social structures infront of us. The very con it is not clear what mentality is. It is a very cept of social history, then gave rise to enrich difficult concept to define, and Jacques Le ment and expansion, and the issues of mental Goff, who has written a lot about it, says that ity proved to be inseparable aspects of social mentality is a very ambiguous concept, and I history. agree entirely. It should not be forgotten, how Social history is the history of the people, ever, that no historical term can be defined as and people are not physical bodies (I say fun rigidly as terms of natural science. I have just damental things because they should be said), spoken about the concept of social history, and but beings who do not allow their activities, said that I began to understand it first on one behaviour and dealings to be governed purely level, then on another, although it seemed that by material considerations. Look at it this way: everyone knew what social history was . In re peasants are exploited even more and they re ality, everyone interprets this concept differ volt. It could also happen that they are ex ently, but it is not that simple. By its very ploited even more and they remain placid, nature and content, mentality is a very diffi okay? They give their land to some monastery cult concept to define. Difficult, because of its or other, not because the peasants are being internal structure, vagueness, and lack of impoverished, but because they must save structure, but above all because of its all-em their souls for another reason. I must also say bracing character, and because it is an ether in it is not possible to understand socio-economic which our entire historical essence has been processes if we do not understand what is go submerged. Where does mentality end? It ing on in the heads, consciousness and hearts doesn't. Man's entire world has been sub of these people. Mentality and culture are merged in its mental sphere. That does not therefore to be understood in the ethnological mean that man's world consists only of men or cultural and social anthropological sense tality - it also consists of philosophy, religion, otherwise I feel that social relations can not be science, aesthetics and all other possible phe understood . That is why the real definition of nomena of man's spiritual existence . But it is social history needs to be expanded. basically where the individual flourish of cul ture, philosophy, religion etc., the world of per ception, the world where one's perception of Scholze-I rrlitz: the world is born. That is why I believe that So what is the case with works such as Le Roy the impossibility of providing an exact defini Ladurie's "Montaillou"? I think he deals with tion of mentality is due to the very nature of social history as well as mentality. this world.

127 Scholze-Irrlitz: such as time , work or space for the antiquity, In which cultural fields does mentality play a and for the more recent history? part - in art, philosophy, religion for example, or only in traditions? Gurevich: No. I don't think so. I believe that our ideas of Gurevich: space, time, work etc. have been formulated in No. I believe that mentality can be found not accordance with our own twentieth century just in philosophy, religion, art and tradition, culture and they can appear to us as specific, but anywhere and everywhere. Another thing as you put it, invariables. When we apply them to ask is how it can be found, what steps must to other eras, however, we must think how be taken and methods used to find it, and how they differ from the categories of the time . The must a topic be manipulated to find traces of terms can be confusing - they are the same mentality in it? I think, however , that it is terms but they mean different things. "Time" always present in some form or other. has been a particular abstraction since Gali Another thing to remember is that there are leo. "Time" appeared and could appear as a different levels of consciousness. Let's suppose powerful force, but could be interpreted in a that you want to analyse Thomas Aquinas' variety of ways, somewhat circularly. Work - "Summa Theologiae". It is more difficult to no doubt you know how to interpret the con find mentality in his works than in Berthold cept of work. In medieval German literature von Regensburg's, whose "sermones" were there were studies dedicated to work. It aimed at the masses and the community. Tho emerged that in the Middle Ages work had a mas Aquinas', however, turned to that small different meaning to what it has in modern group of students and professors of Academia, times. For us, work and leisure are clearly but nevertheless I believe there is mentality in opposites. his works ; just as there is in his readers. But So in this sense, the categories are not invar this is the background which was rationalized iables: we have our concepts which we must by philosophical thought. Contradictions were convert into the thoughts of people from anoth left to one side and everything was lined up er era. I believe, therefore, that it is important neatly. This is the case in Thomas Aquinas' to stress their variability here. Let's take Im works. His own consciousness, however, ap manuel Kant, for him space and time were parently had a different structure, but how can absolute categories of consciousness, and being it be traced? Or even, can it? As far as Thomas . a philosopher and not a historian, he did not is concerned I can't say anything, but with wonder if the concepts of space and time Berthold not only can his philosophical princi changed from generation to generation. He be ples be seen but, also other depths and these lieved that each cognitive act had its own spe so-called existential depths I find the most in cific preconditions, and he was right. That is teresting. the preconditions for each cognitive act. But these preconditions are fundamentally differ Scholze-Irrlitz: ent for ancient man, and modern man. That is Towards the end of your book "Categories of my opinion . Medieval Culture", you speak of an "invaria ble" in the historico-cultural process, and my next question is linked to that. Do the cate Scholze-Irrlitz: gories by which historical precedents are set Your words on the unchanging course of exist represent a super-historical structure? Is the ence at the end of your "Categories of Medieval process of history to be treated so objectively Culture", and on the invariance of historico that different historical periods of time always cultural processes remind me of various works represent the same categories in individual by Levi-Strauss. Did his thoughts and struc eras? Are there, for example, set categories turalism have any influence on your works?

128 Gurevich: explained the issue of historical synthesis, Of course they did. I think that a modern histo whereby man's material and spiritual phe rian cannot distance himself from cultural and nomena are interrelated. He was able to at structural anthropology or any other modern tempt such a synthesis which no one before train of thought. In my approach, however, I him and hardly anyone since had dared to. His always kept any ideas of structuralism at a works made a great impression on me, not distance. least because I know his biography and there It is very important to me to stress the indi fore study them under the influence of his per viduality of any phenomenon, rather than its sonality. He also influenced you, didn't he? He invariance. Does history teach generalities, or is a Heaven-sent historian. individual things? I feel that history always Lastly I must say that when I selected my teaches something individual and uses general field in the mid-60s Le Gaffs book "La civ categories in this individuality, as of the aim of ilisation de !'occident medieval" made a great history is to demonstrate the corresponding impression on me. I regard him as the most occurrences to the society and people of the talented modern French historian. He influen time. ced me enormously.

Scholz e-Irrlitz: Scholze-Irrlitz: Allow me to ask once again about your teach What is the background to your choice of ers. sources which, with regard to the Icelandic sagas, is unique? Gurevich: Teachers who actually taught me and whose Gurevich: lectures I attended include the aforementioned My first dissertation was on the early English Professors Kosminsky and Nyussychin. The peasantry, in particular the specifics of land Chair of Medieval History in the History Fac ownership in England. This was an issue I ulty of Moscow University was the Faculty's could not solve with the English and Anglo best at the end of the 1940s, and beginning of Saxon material, as there wasn't enough of it. I the 1950s. The most important scientists and therefore decided to turn to Norwegian, Icelan representatives of old Russian intelligence dic, and even archaic Germanic material. As I were to be found here. They taught and edu started to deal with the Scandinavian mate cated us. rial, new sources appeared, in particular the Norwegian peasants of the early Middle Ages, Scholze-Irrlitz: which was perfect, as they not only appeared Did you also hear Mikhail Bakhtin? as the objects of agreements and exploitation in these features but also as subjects. In the Gurevich: sagas, the poetry and even in the laws, they I never met Bakhtin. The first time I saw him appeared to me as living, feeling beings who was at his own funeral as he was being low had their own view of the world. This Scandi ered into the ground, but I have read his navian material also proved to be a laboratory works. His 1965 book on Franrois Rabelais' for studying the issue of mentality. works made a big impression on me, as it did You said that my sources were unique , on many others in my country. So in this sense which is clearly a paradox. French historians he is obviously one of my teachers although I of mentality who wish to expose mentality, never had anything to do with him personally. have never consulted Scandinavian material. I must name another scientist, whom I It is meanwhile a unique source. never saw nor could have as he died in 1944, but whose works I regard as my teacher: Marc Scholze-I rrlitz: Bloch. Marc Bloch strikes me as being this Who do you regard as the forerunners or main century's greatest historian. He very clearly representatives of cultural history writing of

129 this, the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, suffering. The function of this part of Hell was J. Huizinga for example? thus a function of Purgatory and not of Hell. I therefore believe that particular - how should Gurevich: I put it - premonitions of this Purgatory were Huizinga naturally plays an important role, already present in visions from the sixth cen but I find it difficult to agree with his methods. tury to the eighth century. Le Goff does not I would say that he is highly impressionable deny this, but simply shifts the emphasis. but his insight into the culture and feelings of late Medieval and early modern man is very Scholze-Irrlitz: important. I have read it all, and it has influ In the German translation of "Pour un autre enced me greatly. I would like to name one moyen age", Le Goff writes that he finds it other important author about whom too little impossible to interpret these sources of oral is known, but whose works I as a Nordist tradition - and can only interpret scholastic value: Wilhelm Gr0nbech, an early twentieth sources. Do you feel that there is a difference century Danish historian. His penetration of between your approach and Le Goffs? You the spiritual and social world of early Medieval have said that Le Goff deals with culture and Scandinavians is extraordinarily successful. It society, and you with social history - are there was all based on brilliant intuition, rather any other differences? than any specific methods. He too has influen ced me greatly. On the whole, many people Gurevich: I can not really make any comparisons because have influenced me. I feel that we can not be compared. He really is an outstanding historian and I bow down be Scholze-Irrlitz: fore him - I feel he has turned to other things. I am familiar with your contributions to the His first works were devoted to Medieval in "Annales" and your discussion with Le Goff. tellectuals, to bankers and traders in the in Your different opinions result from your tellectual sense. He has never dealt with agri sources, and from scholastic and oral tradition. cultural history or with material history in the Le Goff demonstrates the origin of Purgatory true sense of the word. So his research meth through two points he regards as decisive: 1. ods are different to mine, as are both our ap the geographical location of Purgatory must be proaches. named; 2. the word "purgatorium" must follow. Do you regard this as important , or should the Scholze-Irrlitz : development of ideas be not so dependant on a Thank you very much . linguistic analysis of words?

Gurevich: Notes I have written something about this. It is pos *The conversation took place in May 1990 in the sible that the substantive "purgatorium" did Lomonossov-Univers ity during my studies in Mos cow. For furthe r details, see my recently published not appear in any sources until the 1270s and book in German: Leonore Scholze-Irrlitz: Modern e 1280s. Le Goff has shown that this is indeed Konturen histori scher Anthropologie. Eine verglei the case although it did appear in literature. chende Studie zu den Arbeiten von Jacques Le Goff So, let's assume that this is true. What does it und Aaron J. Gwjewitsch, Peter Lang Verlag, mean? I think it means that at the time the FrankfurVM . u.a ., 1994. substantive "purgatorium " came into being, a 1. To the history of th e "Sixieme Section" cf. Mazon precise concept of Purgatory was being devel (1985) . oped, as defined by scholars. In early visions of 2. Compare with the dialo gue relationships in con the Afterlife, however, Purgatory existed but nection with linguistics and everyday life (Bakh tin 1969: 102ff.). was regarded as a specific part of Hell, a part 3. Le Goff doesn't use the visions in his analysis. He of the Afterlife from which man's soul can still only note that of Thurkill (Le Goff 1984: 452- get to Paradise upon completion of some sort of 453).

130 4. Reference is made here to Cassirer (1953: 106- Gurevich, Aaron J. 1984: Oral and Written culture of 108). the Middle Ages: Two "Peasant Visions" of the 5. References are made to Eliade (1986: 48-49). Late Twelfth-Early Thirteenth Centuries. In: New Literary History XVI . 51-66. Gurevich, Aaron J. 1986: Mittelalterliche Volkskul References tur. Probl eme zur Forschung. Dresden. Gurevich, Aaron J. 1990: Invitation au dialogue. Bakhtin, Mikhail 1969: Literatur und Karneual . Zur Lettre aux historiens Francais. In : MSH Informa Romantheorie und Lachkultur. Miinchen. tions 64. 14-17. Benedict, Ruth 1955: Urformen der Kultur. Ham Gurevich, Aaron J. 1991a: The medieval world-view. burg. Approaches of the "Annales-School". (From the Braudel, Fernand 1977: Geschichte und Sozialwis History of Mentalities to Historical Anthropolo senschaften. Die longue duree. In: Honegger (ed.): gie). In: Konrad H. Jarausch, Jorn Rusen & Hans M. Bloch, F. Braudel, L. Febvre u.a.: 47-85. Schleier (eds): Geschichtswissenschaft vor 2000. Brown, Peter 1986: Die letzten Heiden. Eine kleine Perspektiven der Historiographiegeschichte , Ge Geschichte der Spatantike. Berlin . schichtstheorie, Sozial- und Kulturgeschichte . Burke, Peter 1988: Editorial preface . In: A. J. Gure Festschrift fiir Georg M. lggers zum 65. Geburt vich 1988: Medieval popular culture: Problems of stag. (= Beitrii.ge zur Geschichtskultur. Vol. 5). belief and perception. Cambridge. Hagen: 370-380. Burke, Peter 1989: Starken und Schwii.chen der Gurevich, Aaron J. 1991b: Die Theorie der Gesell Mentalitatsgeschichte . In: U. Raulff (ed.): Menta schaftsformation und die historische Wirklichkeit. litaten-Geschichte. Berlin: 127-145. In: Berliner Debatte Initial 4: 435-446. Burke, Peter 1991: Offene Geschichte. Die Schule der Halbwachs, Maurice 1985: Das kollektive Gedacht Annales. Berlin. nis . Frankfurt/M. Cassirer, Ernst 1953: Philosophie der symbolischen Honegger, Claudia (ed.) 1977: M. Bloch, F. Braudel, Formen. Vol. 1-3. Darmstadt. L. Febvre u.a. Schrift und Materie der Geschichte. Davis, Natalie Z. 1986: Die Mi.iglichkeit der Vergan Vorschldge zur systematischen Aneignung histo genheit. Geschichte und Ethnologie: neue Blicke rischer Prozesse. Frankfurt/M. auf vertraute Landschaften. In: U. Raulff (ed.): Irrlitz, Leonore 1988: Berthold uon Regensburg. Der Vom Umschreiben der Geschichte. Neue histo Buf3prediger des Hochmittelalters im Spiegel der rische Perspektiven. Berlin. kulturhistorischen Literatur (unpubl. MS of the Duby, Georges 1984: Krieger und Bauern. Die Ent dissertation). Berlin 1988. wicklung der mittelalterlichen Wirtschaft bis um Yastrebiskaja, Adel L. 1990: Alltii.glichkeit, Volks 1200. Stuttgart. kultur und materielle Kultur in der sowjetischen Dumezil, Georges 1959: Loki. Darmstadt. Mediii.vistik. In: Mensch und Objekt im Mittelalter Dumezil, Georges 1989: Mythos und Epos. Die Ideo und in der friihen Neuzeit. Leben -Alltag- Kultur. logie der drei Funktionen in den Epen der indoeu Wien: 127-155. ropaischen Volker. Frankfurt/M . Le Goff, Jacques 1970 : Kultur des europdischen Mit Durkheim, Emile 1967: Individuelle und kollektive telalters. Miinchen. Vorstellungen. In: E. Durkheim: Soziologie und Le Goff, Jacques 1977: Fiir ein anderes Mittelalter. Philosophie . Frankfurt/M.: 45-83. Zeit, Arbeit und Kultur im Europa des 5.-15. Jahr Eliade, Mircea 1986: Kosmos und Geschichte. Der hundert s. Frankfurt/M. Mythos der ewigen Wiederkehr. Frankfurt/M . Le Goff, Jacques 1982: Bemerkungen zur dreigeteil Ginzburg, Carlo 1984: Beweise und Mi.iglichkeiten. ten Gesellschaft, monarchischen Ideologie und Randbemerkungen zur Wahrhaftigen Geschichte wirtschaftlichen Erneuerung der Christenheit von der Wiederkehr des Martin Guerre. In: N. Z. vom 9.-12. Jahrhundert. In: M. Kerner (ed.): Ideo Davis (ed.): Die wahrhaftige Geschichte uon der logie und Herrschaft. (= Wege der Forschung. Vol. Wiederkehr des Martin Guerre. Miinchen: 185- 530). Darmstadt. 408pp. 217. Le Goff, Jacques 1983: Vorwort. In: M. Bloch: Les Gurevich, Aaron J. 1966: Pochody Vikingov. Moskva . Rois Thaumaturges. Paris. Gurevich, Aaron J. 1968 : Wealth and Gift-Bestowal Le Goff, Jacques 1984: Die Geburt des Fegefeuers. among the Ancient Scandinavians. In: Scandina Stuttgart . via 7: 126-138. Le Goff, Jacques 1987: Das Hochmittelalter. Frank Gurevich, Aaron J. 1970: Problemy genezisa feoda furt/M. lizma v zapadnoy Europe. Moskva. Le Goff, Jacques 1988: Histoire et memoire. Paris. Gurevich, Aaron J. 1978 : Das Weltbild des mittelal Le Goff, Jacques 1989a: Eine mehrdeutige Ge terlichen Menschen. Dresden. schichte. In: U. Raulff (ed.): Mentalitdten-Ge Gurevich, Aaron J. 1983: Popular and scholary me schichte. Berlin. dieval cultural traditions: notes in the margin of Le Goff, Jacques a.o. (eds.) 1989b: Leben mit der Jacques Le Goffs book. In: Journal of Medieval Geschichte. Frankfurt!M. History 9/2. 71-90. Le Goff, Jacques, Chartier, R. & J. Revel (eds) 1990:

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