Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 10 APRIL 1975

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Matters of Public Interest [10 APRIL 1975] Papers 575

THURSDAY, 10 APRIL 1975

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. J. E. H. Houghton, Redcliffe) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m. ADDRESS IN REPLY PRESENTATION AND ANSWER Mr. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that, accompanied by honourable members, I this day presented to His Excellency the Governor the Address of the Legislative Assembly, adopted by this House on 20 March, in reply to His Excellency's Opening Speech, and that His Excellency has been pleased to make the following reply:- "Government House, "Brisbane, lOth April, 1975. "Mr. Speaker and Gentlemen, "As the Representative of Her Majesty The Queen, I tender to you and the Members of the Parliament of Queensland, my sincere thanks for the Address in Reply to the Speech which I had the honour to deliver at the Opening of Parliament on February 26th last. "It will be my pleasant duty to convey to Her Majesty The Queen the expression of continued loyalty and affection to The Throne and Person of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II from the members of the Legislature of Queensland in Parliament assembled. "The Queen is the unifying centre for the peoples of the Commonwealth of Nations, and a sign to the world of our faith in freedom. "I trust that your labours to promote the advancement and prosperity of this great State will meet with success in full measure. "I pray that the blessings of Almighty God may rest upon your counsels. "'C. T. HANNAH, "Governor." PAPERS The following papers were laid on the table:- Orders in Council under- Industrial Development Act 1963-1973. City of Brisbane Act 1924-1974. State Housing Act 1945-1973. Rules under the City of Brisbane Act 1924-1974. 576 Questions Upon Notice [10 APRIL 1975] Questions Upon Notice

(A) 'Proposal by the Governor in Council tion was only a personal report, who to revoke the setting apart and were the members of the committee headed declaration as a State Forest of all by E. F. Gutekunst, what departmental or that piece or part of State Forest educational positions did they hold at 611, parishes of Beerwah, Canning the time of the study and who appointed and Toorbul, described as portion 589 the committee? parish of Beerwah, as shown on pia~ (2) At what schools are the "innova­ Cg. 1073 deposited in the Survey tive programmes" to which he referred Office and containing an area of being undertaken, who instituted the pro­ 14·498 hectares-under the Forestry grammes and how long have they been Act 1959---'1974. in operation? (B) A brief explanation of the proposal. (3) Has he read the report and, if so, is he prepared to act on the recommenda­ MINISTERIAL STATEMENT tions made in the interests of upgrading PUPIL ROAD TOLL; NEWSPAPER REPORT ON religious instruction in State schools? ANSWER TO QUESTION Hon. V. J. BffiD (Burdekin-Minister for Answers:- Education and Cultural Activities) (11.6 ( 1) '·The members of the committee and a.m.): I wish to draw attention ,to the report their positions at the time of appointment in this morning's "Courier-Mail" to the effect were: Mr. E. F. Gutekunst (Chairman), that, in answer to a question by the hon­ Regional Director of Education at Rock­ ourable member for Everton, Mr. Lindsay, I hampton; Mr. N. A. Adsett, Staff Inspector stated that 1,035 children had been killed on (Primary); Miss N. C. A. Alcorn, Senior Queensland roads while travelling to or Mistress, Hendra State High School; Mr. from school. A. H. Anderson, Principal, Kedron State As members are aware, this report is as High School; Dr. K. E. Tronc, Senior incorrect as it is dangerously misleading. I Lecturer in Education, Mt. Gravatt in fact stated that no information is avail­ Teachers College; and Mr. I. J. Weir, able specificially relating to the number of Principal, Serviceton South State School. children killed or maimed going to or from The committee was appointed by the then school, but that 1,035 persons up to the age Minister for Education and Cultural of 20, including motor drivers, motor cyclists, Activities, Sir Alan Fletcher." pedestrian cyclists, pedestrians and passengers (2) "The innovative programs referred had been killed on Queensland roads. to were locally sponsored and developed This answer is quite different from that without any direction from my department. reported in the Press, and I am at a loss to It is known that such programs have been understand why this should be so in view initiated at the Gabbinbar State School of the fact that typed copies of such answers in Toowoomba, Ashgrove State School, can be made available to the media. and Rockhampton, Balmoral and New­ market State High Schools." QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE (3) "Yes, I have read the rel?ort .. May I say that I was impressed w.1th 1t, and BEEF CATTLE INDUSTRY ASSISTANCE SCHEME give full credit to the Chatrman and Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The members. The Honourable Member is Minister for Lands,- no doubt aware of Cabinet's decision last ( 1) With reference to the Queensland Monday with regard to religious education Government's $10 million low-interest and I refer him to the statement I made beef-assistance scheme, how many applica­ on this matter following the Cabinet tions have been received and how many meeting." loans have been made? (2) What is the total amount of loans involved? DISPOSAL OF FURNITURE FROM MINISTERIAL ROOM OF HONOUR­ (3) Are beef producers only eligible for ABLE W. A. R. RAE these loans if they are unable to borrow from normal lending institutions? Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- Answcrs:- ( 1) Is there a complete record of all (1 and 2) "To date 71 applications furniture which has been removed from have been considered under the Beef Parliament House in the last 10 years? Cattle Industry Assistance Scheme and loans to these applicants total $827,754." (2) If so, does this record designate (3) "Yes." where such furniture is now? (3) Will he make this record available GUTEKUNST REPORT ON RELIGIOUS EDUCATION to interested Members and allow Members Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The to investigate the present condition and Minister for Education,- whereabouts of this furniture? ( 1 ) In view of his claim, as reported ( 4) With refe.rence to the cedar fur­ in The Morning Bulletin of April 8, that niture, including a large cedar bed, a the Gutekunst Report on Religious Educa- round table, a bedside unit and chairs, Questions Upon Notice [10 APRIL 1975] Questions Upon Notice 577

which was in the Ministerial room used (7) Are regular conferences held or last year by the Honourable W. A. R. likely to be held to iron out many differ­ Rae, where is that furniture now? ences that will occur between the par­ ( 5) Is it now the personal property ticipating States of the commission? of the Honourable W. A. R. Rae follow­ ing the Government's agreement' to Mr. Answers:- Rae's request to allow him to purchase the furniture for personal or sentimental ( 1) "It is the intention of the Interstate reasons? Corporate Affairs Commission to secure uniformity in administration of the Com­ (6) What was the estimated value of panies Act and to ensure that reciprocal this furniture? arrangements are followed within the par­ (7) Did Mr. Rae pay the sum of $65 ticipating States in respect to the incor­ for the furniture and, if not, what was poration of companies, the registration of the amount paid? prospectuses, the approval of trust deeds and trustees, requirements in relation to (8) What was the cost of refurnishing accounts and audit, proclamation of com­ this Ministerial room for the Minister who panies as investment companies and class is now occupying it? and individual exemption powers relating Answers:- to fund raising, etc., and to takeovers." (1) "No." (2) "I understand that legal firms have ( 2) "See Answer to (1) ." no difficulty in following the revised (3) "See Answer to (1 )." arrangements." (4 to 7) "When Mr. Rae was appointed (3) "Yes." Agent-General it was ascertained that the Agent-General's residence in London was ( 4) "Yes. Amended forms are accept­ not fully furnished. Mr. Rae consequently able but you will appreciate that the expressed a wish to have certain furniture requirements of the Oaths Act of the which he had been utilising in Queensland. particular State where the declaration is As such furniture was redundant it was made must be complied with." agreed that he be aUowed to purchase the (5) "Yes." items for a nominal figure of $50 and the furniture was crated and shipped to ( 6) "The Queensland Act requires that him as Agent-General accordingly." annual returns in relation to an exempt proprietary company should be made up (8) "$854.25 for new items." to the anniversary date of the company's incorporation. The Companies Acts of INTERSTATE CORPORATE AFFAIRS CoMMISSION Victoria and New South Wales similarly provide although the particular provisions Mr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The have not yet been brought into effect. The Minister for Justice,- matter is the subject of discussion among ( 1) Since the formation of the Inter­ members of the commission." state Corporate Affairs Commission in the three non-Labor eastern States, is it the (7) "Yes. Meetings of the commission expressed intention of these States to are held monthly." harmonise the law and practice relating to companies or is it a commission designed to further confuse and mutilate the public ExPORT CoAL mind with a multiplicity of legal jargons and jingoisms? Mr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The Premier,- (2) What is the position of a legal firm which may from time to time be instructed (!) Has he noted the jubilant news from to prepare and file documents for lodg­ Tokyo wherein the Queensland coal pro­ ment in a State other than its own? ducers are confident of securing increases of approximately U.S.$20 per metric tonne (3) Will a company form printed in and are also optimistic of securing large or~e participating State be accepted for increases on the European market for our !augment in another participating State? export coal? ( 4) Will amended forms be recognised (2) As huge increases in export prices as between States or will the requirements of the past three years have meant of Oaths or Evidence Acts have to be increased profits to the Queensland coal met in this regard? industry and to Government funding ( 5) Will there be any uniformity in agencies, allowing the Treasurer to over­ 3pplicable fees as between the States com­ come many budgeting worries, will the prising the Commission? present projected huge increases lead to (6) What will be the position re annual increased export-coal royalty charges? return forms for the exempt proprietary (3) Is he or his relevant Minister pre­ companies as the Queensland requirement pared to acknowledge Mr. Connor's differs now from those of the other two negotiations based on the U.S.A. coal States? consolidation r;ew contract price of $59.95 578 Questions Upon Notice [10 APRIL 1975] Questions Upon Notice

per tonne and so amend the harmful (9) Has a licence to discharge water criticism previously levelled at this fine into the Broadwater been granted to Lae Commonwealth Minister by himself and Enterprises? Ministers concerned? (10) If a licence has been granted, what are the terms and conditions and Answers:- period of the licence? ( 1) "Yes, I have read that negotiations (11) Has the Water Quality Council are taking place." power to revoke an existing licence if the (2) "As the Honourable Member well conditions of the permit have not been knows royalties are based on the export carried out by the developer? price of coal." ( 12) May the Water Quality Council (3) "Many of Mr. Connor's decisions direct that water be disposed of by a have done much harm to the mining particular method? and oil exploration industries of Australia. This is evidenced by (a) the .fact that there is now no oil exploration Answers:- taking place; (b) the fact that by his refusal of an export licence he wrecked ( 1 and 2) "I am advised that the the proposed $500 million Weipa com­ council gave approval for this subdivision plex; (c) the fact that by adopting a in May, 1972 in the normal manner and similar attitude he wrecked what was to in accordance with an approved design. be the world's largest coking coal pro­ Conditions of the approval would no cessing plant in Central Queensland; and doubt appear in the minutes of the relev­ (d) the fact that by his decisions he has ant council meeting, which minutes are wrecked the prospects of a $1.000 million required by the Local Government Act uranium enrichment plant in Central Queensland." to be open to inspection." (3) "I am advised that the council did not impose dust pollution or general pollu­ tion of water conditions. However general LAE ENTERPRISES PROJECT, HOLLYWELL water pollution in this situation could well have been outside the council's Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked The jurisdiction." Minister for Local Government,- ( 1) Did the Gold Coast City Council ( 4 and 5) "I am not aware of any carry out a survey of the Runaway Bay environmental impact study being carried Canal Development, east of Bayview out, and it would seem that the approval Street, Hollywell, prior to the issuing of of the subdivision occurred before the a permit to Lae Enterprises-Shearwater environmental impact provision (section Estate and, if so, what was the date and the result of the survey? 32A) was inserted in the Local Govern­ ment Act in December, 1973." (2) \Vhere were the conditions contained in the permit with which the developer ( 6) "An iespection has been made by had to comply? an officer of the Water Quality Council." (3) What stringent conditions were incorporated in the permit issued by the ( 7) "The inspection included a study of council regarding air-borne dust pollution the method of constructing the canals and and the general pollution of adjacent some sampling of the bottom in the Broad­ waters? water. The report concluded that it was ( 4) Was an environmental impact study probable that suspended solids from the carried out by the council prior to the canal construction were entering the project being commenced and, if not by Broadwater." the council, has one been carried out by any other body? ( 8) "See Answer to (7). The refer­ ence to Gold Com,t City Council in this (5) If a report has been prepared, will he ask for a copy of the report? regard is not understood." ( 6) Has there been an inspection of (9) "No licence has been granted." the area by an officer or officers of the Water Quality Council? (1 0) '"See Answer to (9) ." (7) If an inspection has been made, (11) "Yes." what was the extent of the inspection and the nature of the inspector's report? (12) "The Water Quality Council can ( 8) If an inspection has not been determine the method of disposal, e.g., carried out, will he ascertain from the wastes into waters. The Department of council the reason why such an inspection Harbours and Marine also has powers in was not carried out prior to the permit this matter where tidal waters are being approved? involved." Questions Without Notice [IOZAPRIL 1975] Questions Without Notice 579

MANDATORY GAOL SENTENCES FOR Mr. .BJELKE-PETERSEN: I have DRIVING WHILE DISQUALIFIED received information that Miss Davis is (a) Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked likely to visit Australia and that she has been The Minister for Community and Welfare invited to participate in Queensland's May Services,- Day celebrations. The Labor Government in Canberra has the sole responsibility for Concerning announced amendments to preventing or allowing the entry of any the Traffic Act to al,low ma,gistrates dis­ person into Australia. It causes me a great cretionary power in punishment imposed deal of concern that that Government will for drink-driving offences and the proposed probably grant Miss Davis a visa. Doubtless, removal of the six-months' mandatory gaol it will facilitate her entry and assist her in s~ntences for driving while disqualified, how many offenders are presently serving every possible way, just as it assists, promotes prison sentences under the existing pro­ and encourages Communists from other parts visions and how many have completed the of the world to come to Australia to partici­ six-months' prison term? pate in and attempt to influence this nation's way of life. Answer:- Mr. Marginson: Still on the old hymn of hate. "Fifty-two offenders have completed their sentence imposed for driving whilst Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: It is not a disqualified and one hundred and eighty­ hymn of hate. It is a matter of great five are at present serving a prison sen­ concern. tence for a similar offence." Opposition Members interjected. (b) Mr. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Evidently the The Minister for Police,- honourable member for Wolston is another Concerning announced amendments to one of those who side with the Communists. T am very surprised to have his admission in the Traffic Act to allow magistrates dis­ the House today that he supports this sort cretionary power in punishment imposed of thing. for drink-driving offences and the removal of the six-months' mandatory gaol sen­ Opposition Members interjected. tences, what is the total number of con­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The House will victions under the existing provisions since come to order. I ask members to refrain proclamation and how many cases are from persistent interjections while a Minister listed as awaiting adjudication or are on is on his feet answering questions. The remand under this section of the Act? Premier will be heard in silence. Mr. BJ,ELKE-PETERSEN: The honourable Answer:- member for Wolston should be very careful "There is no six-months' mandatory in the attitude that he adopts. He cannot term of imprisonment for drink driving blame anyone for thinking he is an ardent offences. There is however a mandatory supporter of this sort of thing if he adopts six-months' term of imprisonment for the attitude he has just indicated. offences of driving without a licence whilst under disqualification imposed by a court. Mr. Hanson: Are you threatening him? The statistics sought are not readily avail­ Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I am not able and could not be obtained quickly threatening him. I am telling him. If the without a great deal of research requiring the unnecessary wastage of man power. honourable member for Port Curtis is not I do not propose directing that this careful, I will line him up with them, too. research be undertaken." Opposition Members interjected. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I am surprised that the honourable member for Port Curtis BRISBANE VISIT OF ANGELA DAVIS also has put his spoke in and indicated Mrs. KYBURZ: I ask the Premier: Is support for these people. he aware that one of America's 10 most The fact cannot be ignored that Australia's wanted fugitives, Angela Davis, has applied Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister for a visa to visit Australia? Secondly, in have come out clearly, distinctly and without view of the tendency of the Federal Govern­ any equivocation on the side of the Com­ ment to grant visas to well-known and munists. They have backed the North Viet­ potentially dangerous reactionaries, can any­ namese and have said they are poised and thing be done to prevent this personage from ready to recognise the take-over of Saigon visiting Queensland? Thirdly, is he aware and South Vietnam. To me it is an act of that Angela Davis has been invited to treachery by the Prime Minister to adopt address a May Day rally in Brisbane and that attitude. He should be supporting a free that that invitation has been issued by a way of life and preventing people such as Communist organisation with a Trades Hall Miss Davis from entering Australia. How­ facade, the May Day Committee? ever, I can assure the honourable member 580 Questions Without Notice (10 APRIL 1975] Coal and Oil Shale, &c., Bill for Salisbury that the police will give Miss Mr. LEE: As statistical information is Davis special attention and protection should required, and as I am surely not expected she come. to know everything that is happening throughout the State, I ask the honourable MEDIBANK HEALTH SCHEME member to put his question on notice. Mr. DOUMANY: I ask the Minister for Mr• .TONES: I will place on notice that Health: With reference to the continuing part of the question relating to numbers but which will not -- discussions on Medibank and the effects it will have on private hospitals, would he advise Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable how private hospital funding will be affected member for Cairns will place his question on if Queensland does not sign the Common­ notice and ask his next question. wealth-State hospital funding agreement? Mr• .TONES: As a supplementary question without notice, I ask the Minister: Is there or Dr. EDWARDS: This Government is well is there not to be a pay-off at Cairns aware of the tremendous importance that we tomorrow? and the community place on the role of private hospitals within the hospital and Mr. LEE: To my knowledge, no. health system of this State. Sections 31 and 33 of the National Health Act contain a PETITION FROM NURSING STAFF, RoYAL provision that, if a State does not enter into BRISBANE HOSPITAL an agreement on the Commonwealth-State Financial Agreement for the funding of its Mr. MELLOY: I ask the Minister for public hospitals, the private hospitals within Health: Has he received a petition from a the State cannot obtain the subsidy of $16 section of the nursing staff at Royal Bris­ a day for each patient. This is a matter of bane Hospital protesting against the non­ grave importance to this State. appointment of Miss E. A. Abell as Executive Director of Nursing Services? In As the Act is already law and will come view of the strong views expressed in the into operation on 1 July, we should certainly letter which accompanied the petition, can give serious consideration to the National he inform the House what action he pro­ Health Act Commonwealth-State Financial poses to take? Agreement. If no financial agreement is entered into by any State, under this Act Dr. EDWARDS: I have received the the patients who attend private hospitals will petition, and I do not propose to take any not receive the $16 per day subsidy towards action. the cost of their private hospitalisation. COAL AND OIL SHALE MINE DISMISSAL OF WoRKS DEPARTMENT WORKERS (PENSIONS) ACT AMEND­ EMPLOYEES, CAIRNS MENT BILL Mr. .JO;"<

However, perhaps I should elaborate on The Opposition applauds the Bill. We are my reply to the honourable member for happy with it, and we are pleased to see that Ipswich West on the question of a provision its provisions have been made retrospective for the automatic adjustment of the lump-sum to 1 January 1975. We look forward to the benefit rate on S'ome appropriate formula. completion of its passage through the House Whilst I appreciate the merit in his sug­ so that its benefits can flow to retired mine gestion, I do not feel that any real injustice workers. has been caused by the absence of such a provision. The benefit rate is kept under Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (12.2 regular review by all parties associated with p.m.): I am not going to address the House the scheme, and it is adjusted whenever an for any length of time. The Bill, however, actuarial examination, which is now con­ brings back memories to me. Many people ducted each year, indicates that some today ask why the worker does not, as he did improvement can be made. in the old days, blindly support the A.L.P. at the polls. I remind the House of a memor­ I think the long delay referred to by the able occasion, not long before the present honourable member was the period of the Government came to power, when the quite protracted negotiations between the A.L.P. Government of the day decided to parties concerned which led to the new bring down a Bill virtually identical with the scheme provided in the Amendment Act of one now before us in order to amend the November 1970. In this case an agreed terms of the Act gov.ering miners' pensions. interim pension increase was made from 13 Two Opposition members-if I remember May 1969, and the finally negotiated pension rightly, the late Ernie Evans and Lloyd rates were made retrospective to 1 January Roberts-moved an amendment to improve 1970. the pension scheme under the Act. Naturally that disconcerted and considerably embar­ The problem with an automatic adjustment rassed the A.L.P. That, of course, was to be provision in respect of the benefit rate is that expected in this rather grubby game of such a provision would logically have to politics. entail an automatic adjustment of contribu­ tion rates, which, I feel, because of the But the most astonishing thing was yet to necessity to apply the higher benefit rate to come. In those days Ipswich was represented all the past service of a qualifying mine by one of the finest men ever to come to worker, in addition .to his service subsequent this place, named Jim Donald. So honest and to the date of the increased contribution sincere was he that he found himself on the rates, could not generally be in the same horns of a dilemma. He knew that the Bill proportion as the increase in the benefit rate. being brought down by the A.L.P. did not contain what the miners really wanted. It would be necessary for the actual finan­ He knew that his representations to the cial requirement to finance the increased Government on behalf of the miners (I think benefit rate for service, both past and future, he had been secretary of their union) had to be assessed by the State Actuary, and for been fruitless. The Government brushed him the new contribution rates necessary to off and fobbed the miners off with an apology finance this added liability of the fund to be for an amendment of the Act. As Jim calculated and, of course, these new contri­ Donald was a genuine Labor man steeped in bution rates could well, in many cases, be the old traditions of Labor, even though he unacceptable to the parties to the scheme. agreed with it he could not vote for the amendment moved by the hated Tories of I commend the Bill to the House. the Opposition. He salved his conscience as best he could by walking out of the House Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (12 noon): during, I think, the second-reading stage of Opposition members have no objection at all the Bill. to the Bill. We have examined it, and we are quite happy with it. Of course, we would like Jim Donald was on his way to a Cabinet to see even greater improvements in both position and he deserved it, but that was the weekly and lump-sum payments. end of him in .the Labor Party. From that day on, he amounted to nothing. I think On the question of automatic increases in later he was elected leader after the big split lump-sums payments to retired mine workers, in the A.L.P., but he showed his honesty by some years ago the union suggested that standing down to allow Jack Duggan to take there should be automatic increases based the leadership again. That gives an idea of on a formula under consideration at that why the workers in this State are drifting time. However, as the Minister said on away from the A.L.P. and are no longer Tuesday, lump-sum payments have been sub­ blindly supporting it. stantially increased. During the introductory stage of the Bill, There is another matter that I should like a Liberal or National Party member-it is to mention. If my recollection is correct, it hard to distinguish between them when one was about 1970 when the Government made has known them for such a short time­ an increase in its contribution, which I think made several suggestions that must have is now $150,000 per annum. It may be come from a practical miner. They must necessary at a later date to reconsider this have come from the Miners' Union, or from amount as well. somebody closely associated with that union. 582 Coal and Oil Shale Mine [10 APRIL 1975] Workers (Pensions), &c., Bill

That illustrates something that hard-and­ of the honourable member in terms as fast, dyed-in-the-wool, boof-headed members generous as those that he used this morning. of the Labor Party cannot, and will not, I hope he gets that message loud and clear. realise-that the workers today no longer blindly vote Labor, because they can no Of course, Mr. Donald, who was a former longer blindly trust Labor. When they want member and secretary of the Miners Union, anything done, they take it to someone who was a person with very strong views and they think can do it for them. They have strong union principles. The honourable been doing that in Mundingburra and Towns­ member for Townsville South, in common ville South for 31 years, and they will con­ with many other devious members of this tinue doing it as long as I represent the Assembly, referred to Mr. Dona!d, in the electorate. As I said, why the workers do back alleys and corridors of Parliament it is something that A.L.P. members cannot House, as a Comm., when first he came understand. I have no doubt that the Minister here. That was not to their credit, I might who has introduced the Bill receives more add. representations and delegations from workers than any former Labor Minister for Mines Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable received. Until A.L.P. members get that fact member will come back to the Bill. into their stupid big heads, the Labor Party is going to be at the bottom of the ashcan Mr. HANSON: As I said at the intro­ at every election. ductory stage, I am very happy about and delighted with this legislation. However, I Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (12.6 p.m.): did not appreciate the rather sacrastic and I am very pleased to have speaking for veiled reference that was made by the the Opposition today, after a very long illness, Minister to my contributions to the mining the honourable member for Wolston, in industry of this State. It is quite unbecoming whose area miners' pensions are of vital of him. I do not think he really means it, concern. In the past he has been Opposi­ but at times he does show a little bit of tion spokesman and shadow Minister for anger and temper momentarily. I am certain Mines, and naturally he has a great feeling that, in the role of the true penitent, when and concern for those engaged in the industry. he goes along the corridors of the House It is, of course, a remarkable tribute to him later he sincerely regrets many of the unfor­ that, in spite of the side issues that were tunate references that he makes. raised during the election campaign in Of course, the same cannot be said of December last, the people of Wolston stuck his ministerial colleague the Minister for firm and returned him as their representative Local Government and Main Roads, who-- in this Assembly. I take issue to some extent with the hon­ Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. ourable member for Townsville South, who Will you remind the honourable member introduced into the debate a matter that for Port Curtis which Bill we are discussing, occurred many years ago and involved a Mr. Speaker? He thinks we are on the former member of this Assembly, Mr. Jim Primary Industries Bill, or something like Donald. Mr. Donald was a very well­ that. respected member of the Australian Labor Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I thank the hon­ 'Party. He was revered in the Labor caucus. ourable member for Townsville South, but Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. I will look after the conduct of the House. No-one could have been more fulsome or Mr. HANSON: If he could, the Minister more sincere in his praise of Jim Donald for Local Government would be to the than I was. No-one could construe what forefront in denying the miners their break­ I said as an attack on Jim Donald. I should fast. Of course, he would toady to those say-and this is the best tribute I can pay engaged in the nefarious practice of scroung­ to him-that Jim Donald is almost a better ing millions of dollars out of the unfortunate man than the honourable member for Port people who are duped when they come to Curtis. the Gold Coast looking for a piece of land. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I hope that the I hope we see the day when miners' pen­ honourable member for Port Curtis will sions are commensurate with their hazardous occupation. If they are ever fortunate enough accept that. to be able to accumulate a considerable Mr. HANSON: In acknowledging the com­ amount of money, they might be able to afford a block of land in the Minister's pliment of the honourable member for Towns­ subdivision. ville South, I suggest that he takes issue with me merely by virtue of the fact that I have very much pleasure on behalf of he has expressed his appreciation of and my colleagues in endorsing the legislation. eulogised the former member of the House No doubt in future years we will be called of whom I am speaking. I say to the hon­ upon to consider further amendments to the ourable member for Townsville South that, Act to bring it into line with modern in many conversations I have had with him, events. The fund is in a very healthy state Jim Donald did not express his appreciation and is actuarially sound. All I can do at Building Bill (10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 583 this stage is wish it success, and wish those At the introductory stage the Minister said who are getting benefits from the fund every he had called a seminar, at which local prosperity. authorities agreed to standardise the building code. But they did not agree that the code Hon. R. E. CAMM (Whitsunday-Minister should be framed in such a way as to remove for Mines and Energy) (12.11 p.m.), in reply: the rights of local people to object. I am very pleased to have the assurance that honourable members opposite accept Mr. Hinze: Haven't you ever heard of the the principles of the Bill. Local Government Association? Motion (Mr. Camm) agreed to. Mr. BURNS: I am talking about the rights COMMITTEE of the people, not those of various associa­ tions or groups getting together and making (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. decisions on behalf of the people. I am Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) talking about the people's rights. Perhaps Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, as read, as ,J analyse the Minister's introductory agreed to. speech he might agree with me. Bill reported, without amendment. Alderman Abbot!, a member of the North Queensland Local Government Association THIRD READING executive, said he believed that Queensland Bill, on motion of Mr. Camm, by leave, Government departments were building their read a third time. own hierarchies and were progressively whittling away the rights and responsibilities BUILDING BILL of local authorities and, with them, the direct participation of people in the growth and INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE-RESUMPTION OF development of their own regions. Alderman DEBATE Abbott, of Mackay, was speaking in support (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. of a motion that called on the association to Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) protest strongly to the Premier about such Debate resumed from 8 April (see p. 547) a removal of rights. on Mr. Hinze's motion- Mr. Hinze: Not on this one. "That a Bill be introduced to prescribe standard by-laws for local authorities in Mr. BURNS: No, not on this Bill; I am respect of the erection of buildings and not suggesting that. What I am saying is other structures, to prescribe the powers of that people are becoming concerned at the local authorities in relation to certain build­ fact that, while the Queensland Government ings and other structures, and consequen­ is ranting and raving about national cen­ tially to amend the Local Government Act tralism in Canberra, at the same time it is 1936-1974 and the City of Brisbane Town implementing State centralism in Brisbane. Planning Act 1964-1974 each in certain It is removing the rights of the local author­ particulars and for related purposes." ities and denying local people their own say. Constantly the Government preaches that Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the local people, those who know more about Opposition) (12.15 p.m.): This Bill is an local conditions, should have a say in their exercise in State centralism. I am really respective areas, and now it has the oppor­ surprised that a Government that has used this tunity to practise what it preaches. But Chamber for the last two years to attack instead of giving the local authorities the centralism, and to rave about the evils of opportunity to continue to do what they decisions being made far away from the have done in the past, that is, operate in local people, should introduce such a Bill. their own way, the Government has said We have had regular diatribes in the Chamber that it is not in favour of such participatory about centralism, and the Minister who has democracy. introduced the Bill has continued to deliver them himself in respect of national roads Surely the Minister would not suggest that and other matters. But this week this same building codes on the Gold Coast should Minister has introduced a Bill that is one be exactly the same as those in the western of the most blatantly centralised legislative or northern areas of the State. The Minister measures the Opposition has seen. He seeks has, in fact, told us that provision is made to whip into line the 131 local authorities in the Bill for cyclone-prone areas and for throughout Queensland by imposing upon local authorities to be given some leeway them a building code drawn up outside their in relation to homes erected on tops of hills areas of authority. where they may be damaged by high winds. Mr. Hinze: You don't know what you're But has the Minister considered, for talking about. example, the person who wants to erect a fisherman's shack? This Bill will, in effect, Mr. BURNS: Yes, I do. kill him; there will not be any more fisher­ Mr. Frawley: The local authorities want it. men's shacks. Every island along the Queensland coast will come under the pro­ Mr. BURNS: Later I shall read some visions of the Local Government Act, and statements made by members of local author­ this building code will apply to the fellow ities to prove otherwise. who wants to put up for himself a tin shed, 584 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

for example, at Jumpinpin or on Short or houses will be built in module form in a Rat Island, or at other places in lower More­ factory and then taken to a building site. I ton Bay. The Minister simply will not allow have been told that a 1 per cent saving in it. housing costs in Australia would amount to The Minister has decided that the day many millions of dollars a year. This type when a man wanted to build a seaside shack, of operation might be one means of effecting away from it all, has gone. In future such a such a saving. person will be governed by the uniform I understand from the Minister's intro­ building code. The Minister shakes his head. ductory speech that he thinks it desirable At a later stage we will see whether my fore­ to have all the provisions relating to erec­ cast is correct. Many people like to get away tion, demolition, repair and occupation of from the hurly-burly of city life into peaceful buildings included in this legislation. He surroundings, but this Bill will prevent them referred also to site approvals. We are from doing that in future. not dealing only with standards for the We might ask ourselves: should we decide building of a house so that it will not be that every house in the State must be built blown over by a cyclone. We are dealing to minimum requir.ements or in accordance with everything from site approval to occu­ with certain standard by-laws? Is this what pancy of a house after its completion. We we really want in the interests of safety and are not talking only about common building security? Should this standard code apply in standards or a building code. We are talking developing areas, or should we provide some about things that will affect the ordinary leeway to move with the times? fellow in his home for a long while. It is important that we look closely at these I am aware of the saving of cost involved matters. in a national building code. For example, I realise that as a result of different by-laws a I congratulate the Minister on the sugges­ home built, for example, in Queanbeyan tion about handicapped people. might cost as much as $900 more than an In his introductory remarks he referred identical home in Canberra. I also realise very briefly to high-rise buildings. I draw that people who live in Tweed Heads are the Committee's attention to the high-rise required to adhere to different standards from problems in Victoria. Indeed, Mr. Chipp those applying in Coolangatta. The same said that among the worst monuments to comments can apply to home-builders in Liberalism in Victoria were the high-rise different local authority areas. I am also blocks scattered throughout Melbourne, aware of the fact that lending authorities lay which led to a poor standard of living. We down their own building standards. must not only look at the building standards I agree that some form of national unifor­ to ensure that buildings will withstand mity is necessary, but I also believe that cyclones, tornadoes and whirlwinds, but we should leave in our legislation gaps that also endeavour to ensure good standards of will allow a man to do something just a living for people. Some people are concerned little bit different. For example, there is about high-rise buildings and the decision of nothing in the Bill to enable people to experi­ the Housing Commission to bring old people ment with home construction. Apparently together in sets of fiats. Doubt has been no-one would be allowed erect an air-house expressed as to whether it is a good idea of the type that is now being built in to Jump them together in this way possibly America, or a spherical type of home on creating a slum situation and it has been three stilts, or a plastic home. suggested that more enlightened planning would provide accommodation for them that Will people be able to experiment and try would allow them to come into contact with to build something completely different from other age-groups. the standard type of buildings? I do not think that will be permissable under our I congratulate the Minister for saying in building code. If we specify that a house his opening remarks that a summary of this must be built in a certain way, how will Bill would be made available to members people who buy 5 or 10-acre blocks, say, of the public. at Capalaba, and build a home piecemeal Mr. Hinze: I did say that. fare? Some of the restrictions will cer­ tainly make building more costly for them, Mr. BURNS: That is a good idea. One and we will destroy the initiative and enter­ problem today is that nominated builders' prise of people who wish to build in that signs are placed on blocks of land, but way. in many instances the builder is nothing more I hope that the main objective will be than a salesman. In reality he says to the to prepare minimum generally acceptable client, "This is the concept or design I standards for home-building in Australia. have of a house in Canberra for sale for We must expect that there will be more $17,000." He is virtually a salesman and mechanisation of building construction. he sells the client on the house. He then gets all his subcontractors together and I hope that provision is made in this eventually the house is built. When all Bill for a type of industrial housing, or the legal jargon is sorted out, many home factory housing that must become available buyers find on completion of their houses in years to come by which large sections of that they have a large number of complaints. Building Bill (10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 585

I know that the Builders' Registration The Minister further said that a dispute Board can go a long way towards remedying between the Crown and the local authority them, but the big problem lies in the fact is to be directed to the Minister for Local that initially potential buyers before becoming Government-that is, himself-and then to involved, are unaware of the requirements the Governor in Council. That is an appeal of councils, Governmnts and other parties. from Caesar to Caesar. The legislation pro­ Eventually a building inspector from the poses that a building advisory committee council, the Housing Commission or a finance be set up. Why couldn't such disputes be company says, "I don't care whether yon determined by that committee? Why set the agree with the builder or not on whether Crown apart? Aren't we part of the State that is good brick-work. I don't agree. It of Queensland? Aren't we bound to accept is not up to our standards." If we lay down the laws of the State of Queensland? Why standards, it is very important that we make should the Crown for some unknown reason certain that they are available to the people be given a set of rules to suit it different involved, that is, those who finally have from those required to be observed by the to pay off the house over 20 or 30 years. ordinary citizen? Why can't it be required lt is not the architect who really counts, to lodge an appeal with the building advisory nor the builder, nor any subcontractor, but committee just as the ordinary citizen is? the home buyer-the person paying the bill. It seems to me that we have no strong The Minister said that the Crown will not objection to the composition of the building be required to apply to a local authority for advisory committee, but why shouldn't repre­ approval to build. I would like to know sentatives of the Building Workers' Industrial why not. One of the rights I have as a Union, or the people involved on the job, citizen is the right to object to a development be included. A builder might say what in my area that could adversely affect me. he ha's put into a job, but afterwards many The term "the Crown" includes all the of the men who have worked on the site operations of the Crown. The Crown might can recount completely different stories about intend to set up a building that could be the composition of the building and its injurious to the environment of the people type of construction. Why not include repre­ in the area and objectionable to them. sentatives from the Q.I.T. and the university I have always argued that under normal departments of engineering where experi­ town-planning requirements, people should mentation is being undertaken in an area have the right of objection. The intention where it could be expected that innovations, to build should be advertised on the site changes and modern ideas in building would and the local people should receive letters be considered? Why shouldn't they be on in the mail advising them of the facts. the committee instead of representatives from That requirement should be binding on every­ the Housing Commission and a couple of body. We know that that does not happen. councils? I asked a question this session about The Minister said also that it has been the Government's assurance when the first thought desirable to have all the provisions Brisbane town plan was formulated that the Crown, though not bound by the town relating to erection, demolition, repair and plan, would respect its provisions. occupation brought within the one section. I am concerned about the provision that The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon­ people who construct a building illegally ourable gentleman to keep his comments can be fined $50 a day. But it is more about the town plan to brief dimensions; than that: it is the occupation of the otherwise his gambit might compel me to allow other comments, and I do not want building. to do that. I was given the example of a group of people who established a sand-blasting works Mr. BURNS: I am sorry, Mr. Hewitt; at Lindum opposite the Iona College and but I am talking about site approval, which the Lindum State School. They used an old is one of the matters raised by the Minister shed on the site. In defiance of the State in his introductory remarks. Government's Acts relating to working con­ Even though the Crown was not bound ditions and in defiance of the city council's by the town plan, it indicated that it would planning laws, they continued to operate for accept its provisions. However, in Magazine about 30 days. They were not concerned Street, Sherwood, a residential "A" zone, that the city council was, at that time, entitled the Crown decided to extend a Government to charge them about $20 a day, because operation against the wishes of the local it was cheaper for them to pay the fine. citizens and in defiance of the plan. I raise However, when prosecution was considered, that because the Minister said that the it was found to be impossible to have them Crown will not be required to make an fined because an inspector had to be sent application to a local authority for approval down each day so that daily defiance of to erect a building. I would like to know the Act could be proved. After the council why not. The removal of a citizen's right representative went down the first time, the to protect his home and his environment council would not send anyone down again. by the exclusion of that right of objection It decided it had caught him doing something is very dangerous. illegal and that was the end of it. 586 Building Bill (10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

The fellow continued to operate for 30 George Street! He might get permission days disrupting the education of the kiddies about two years hence. It just would not in the school and nothing could be done work. about it. The Minister for Industrial Devel­ opment and the Brisbane City Council tried Mr. Aikens: You would be all right if to help. The fellow said to me, "I have you gave a sling to the Lord Mayor. 30 days to finish the job and I am going to Mr. GIBBS: That is right. If the Minister finish it, and then you can worry about it put $500,000 into the loan, he might get later." I do not consider that $50 a day is permission sooner. a heavy enough fine to be imposed on a person who is working against the interests I would hate to have the Department of of the community and certainly not on a Works required to go to the council in my person who has a contract worth many area and ask for permission to erect a thousands of dollars. He would be prepared school. The school could be erected by the to cop the $50 a day. It might be a big fine time the matter went through the various in the erection of a building, but many council departments and permission was other aspects are covered by this Bill. The given. Let us face up to it. The Crown illegal use of a building and the building of would at least conform to minimum standards an illegal edifice attract this low fine. and I believe it would work well above them. I do not think we have given the local authorities all the rights they should be given Mr. Hanson: You should go to the city in this regard. While we certainly need a council through Bruce Small. He would uniform building code, it might have been fix it. better to lay down a set of standards, send it out in the form of a White Paper and Mr. GIBBS: That is right. Sir Bruce is say, "Here is an opportunity for you to a very good alderman on the Gold Coast bring your standards up to these require­ City Council. We get on very well together. ments." We are both very happy with this concept of building by-laws. There Is no doubt I do not think that people in Townsville, about that. on the Gold Coast, in Weipa, Betoota and Bedourie should all have to build homes to A Government Member: So IS every the same standards. We are putting more council in Queensland. bureaucratic control over the ordinary work­ ing man in his biggest investment in life Mr. GIBBS: That's for sure. -his home. While we must support the idea I should like to congratulate the Minister that economies will flow to the community on the way the Bill provides for objections from uniform standards, I have my doubts and on the composition of the advisory and I shall read the Bill with interest. committee. I think the matter has been very well considered, and I can find no fault Mr. Gnms (Albert) (12.32 p.m.): I sup­ whatever with the Bill. I can speak at port the Bill. I congratulate the Minister least for the Albert Shire Council and the on the drafting of it and on introducing it Gold Coast City Council in such matters. so early in this session. As Deputy Mayor I know that it is sometimes hard for local of the Gold Coast and as chairman of the authorities in the more remote areas to keep health department which handles these build­ up with the latest developments in building ing matters, I can say that my council is by-laws. After changes are made, it some­ very happy with the Bill. There is no doubt times takes 12 months to put them into that it is very good. It has been studied effect. thoroughly by all local authorities in Queens­ land and by the Local Government Assocfa­ I believe that the proposed by-laws will tion. They are very happy with it. We have a wonderful effect on the building have been waiting for many years for a Bill industry throughout Queensland and indeed such as this to come forward and at last throughout Australia. It is interesting to it is here. see that all the States are introducing a I do not think it represents centralism similar Bill and that even the Labor States in any way. It merely co-ordinates the think it is pretty good. I cannot see in efforts of many shires and cities that have the Bill evidence of any centralist attitude. problems keeping up with the day-to-day The Leader of the Opposition asked in changes iu building concepts. The Bill sets effect, "What about people who want to minimum standards, not necessarily what experiment?" I say that no company or can be done. All buildings, wherever they firm has a right to experiment at the cost are built, should measure up to the minimum of others. No-one will stop them from standards accepted by local authorities. experimenting at their own cost in their own The honourable member for Bulimba said factories. If they prove to the Government that the Crown should be covered by this and to local authorities the merit of new law. What is in the Bill is very good, but concepts and types of buildings, there will fancy the Minister for Works and Housing be no trouble because their buildings will having to go cap in hand to the Brisbane City then comply with the minimum standards. Council and ask the Lord Mayor whether Here again the Bill becomes a means of pro­ the Government could erect a building in tecting the public against experimentation. Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 587

I commend the Bill as one of the best know of any bigger mess for which this things that have ever happened to local Parliament of Queensland is responsible than authorities. I also congratulate the Minister the one it made in passing a Bill to establish on bringing it forward so early in the life the Builders' Registration Board. People are of the Parliament. still being fleeced; there is still any amount of jerry-building going on. Yet when one Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (12.37 goes to the Builders' Registration Board and p.m.): I hope my few remarks will be points out a shocking building that has been succinct and that many honourable members constructed, its first excuse is, "Oh, that will agree with them, because I find myself building was erected before the board was in a large measure of agreement with :':hat set up." I say to the board, 'That may be was said by the Leader of the OppositiOn. the case, but doesn't the building of that At first glance-and I may alter my opinion particular edifice show you very clearly that when I see the Bill-I find it a Communist­ the person who built it is not a competent style regimenting Bill, drawn up by theor_ists builder, that he is a crook, a shake-down with very little knowledge of the practical man?" The representatives of the board problems confronting people wJ:o want ~o wring their hands in holy horror and say, build a home. It may be a Bill that will "Oh, we can't do anything about it." be hailed with elation by large home-building firms that build in every State and naturally Time and time again-and I am sme that want to do all that they can to reduce their I speak for most members when I say this­ costs. By so doing, of course, they greatly we have examples brought to us of shocking increase their profits and dividends; certainly present-day jerry-building. If we complain they do not reduce their rents or the prices to the Builders' Registration Board and the that they charge. case is so blatant that it cannot do anything but take a prosecution, it does not prosecute Because of this Bill, I am very much that go-getter, that robber of the people, for afraid that many people will be forced to jerry-building; it prosecutes him for . h.aving buy homes that they do not want or can­ built the building without first obtammg a not afford. When we have before us a registration from the Builders' Registration Bill that regiments people's ideas and plans, Board. He might be fined $300 and costs. I think we should give it very careful con­ What does he care about that? The fine sideration. I remember when I was a member goes to the Government, but the unfortunate of a local authority, as I was for 19 years worker who has been fleeced, or the unfor­ (you yourself, Mr. Row, have similarly tunate tenant or owner who has been fleeced, served, and with considerable honour), that vets no satisfaction. In fact, sometimes he many reputable, honest and sincere people fs thousands of dollars down the drain. approached the council and were givc:n per­ In my opinion, the sooner we either wipe mission to build one or two rooms With the out the Builders' Registration Board or put idea that when they were able to obtain the cleaner through the Act that established finance, and as the opportunity presented. itself, the board and make it a real Act, the sooner they would add to those rooms and fimsh up we compel the Builders' Registration Board with a jolly good home, complete and to the to prosecute builders for jerry-building and satisfaction of everybody concerned. for robbing and fleecing people, the better I do not know if that will be possible it will be for this Parliament and the better under the Bill, and the little fellows may it will be for all of us. be crushed out of existence. Under every I disarrree violently with the statement of local authority that I know of, it seems the Leader of the Opposition that if one to me that a person has to build a mansion person builds a home in a particular area­ or nothing at all. That produces a happy to use very blasphemous vernacular, . one harvest time for back-room planners, archi­ Jesus Christ Junior (and there are qmte a tects and big builders. number of them in the community)-he Mr. Jensen: And building societies. should be able to say, "I have built my home here; consequently, everybody else w~o Mr. AIKENS: Yes, It is a happy harvest builds his home in this particular locality time for anyone who wants to make a few must build a home that suits my idea, not quid out of the little battler, who is the the idea of the person who wishes to build only one for whom I am concerned. I it.,, shall regard the Bill with a fair amount of People who live on hill~ide lots. ~!lve co~e scepticism until I see it and am then able to me and said, "There IS a bmlamg b.em.g my to draw own conclusions. There is an erected in front of my place. When It IS old legal saying that, if a racket can be finished, I won't be able to see the ~~a. It worked under the law, it is only reasonable will block my view of Cleveland Bay. Half to assume that it will be worked. Conse­ the time they would not look at Cleveland quently, we have to examine carefully every Bay; they would not bother to go onto Bill brought before us, to ensure that that their front veranda and see the sea more sort of thing does not happen. than once in every two years. Ho"'_'e~er, I assume, too, that in the actual imple­ they wish to determine the type of bmld1!lg mentation of the Bill the legislative abortion that someone else is to be allowed to bmld known as the Builders' Registration Board in that particular area-and, strangely will be brought into the picture. I do not enough, they receive a Jot of support. 588 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

One person came to me and wanted me the regimentation and control of people by to assist him to take legal action against a back-room bureaucrats, by eggheads and by person who was building a home that, when those with university degrees who have never completed, would prevent him from seeing handled a pick and shovel or driven a nail his favourite view. I said to him, "Show me in their lives, and who have never known a law in any civilised country in the world what it was like to live in a humble home. which says that, when you buy a building They are telling everybody, whether they have allotment and erect a house on it, you also the money or not, "You are going to build buy a view of the area within your eyesight, your home as we tell you to build it." That or even within the view of your binoculars." does not go with me. I will not have it; There are many people who believe that. [ never have had it; and I am not going to The Leader of the Opposition suggested­ start standing it now. and I am surprised that he did-that if a Thank you very much, Mr. Row, for person builds a home in a particular locality, giving me the opportunity to make those few even to the standards that will be set out in remarks before I go back to my beloved the Bili, he can then say, with some power Northland in a couple of hours, leaving the vested in him by a supreme being, "I am A.L.P. members and the National Party mem­ going to see that nobody else builds a home bers to battle on. The Liberals have already in this particular locality unless I agree with gone up there; they have beaten me to it. the plan and the construction of that home." I do not agree with that. I do not agree, Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.47 and never will agree, that once a man has p.m.): It is very difficult to make an objec­ built his home in a particular area he should tive judgment on such a huge piece of dictate to other people what type of home legislation from the Minister's introductory they may build. speech. I appreciate the fact that the Minister did make a copy of his speech Mr. Burns: What I said was that the available to members. Having had a chance Government should not be able to build a to consider his speech, I believe that the building across the road to which such a Bill will be welcomed. That is my honest person would object. opinion. However, I think there are going Mr. AIKENS: I do not know that any to be dangers even though over all it is person should be entitled to tell the Govern­ necessary legislation. In my opinion we will ment or anyone else what it should build. find eventually that it is in the general and specific interests of the general public, of Mr. Burns interjected. good administration in this State, of the ouilding industry itself, and of consumers. Mr. AIKENS: I do believe that the Gov­ It is certainly a detailed and complex meas­ ernment should be amenable to its own laws. ure. I do hope it will achieve the uniformity But what a problem we have when we try that is desired not only in this State but to implement that! It is just not done. throughout the nation. This P'"rliament makes the laws, but if the relevant law was not acceptable to, say, the I wish to speak about another aspect of Minister for Local Government when he uniformity that pertains to the whole question. wanted to do something, we know what would I refer to the need for uniformity in the happen. The Government would amend the area of building specifications. Huge, law. It is as simple as that. unnecessary problems and costs of great magnitude are being experienced by con­ I am violently and vehemently opposed to sumers and by people in the building indus­ any suggestion of a poll tax in this matter. try, including builders themselves, because A poil tax is an imposition on the little of the lack of uniformity in that area. Many people, and it acts only in favour of the Queensland companies-and I think quickly big people. What harm would it be to me of Hyne & Sons, but there are many others or a wealthy man like the honourable mem­ -are not bound by State boundaries because ber for Port Curtis and other honourable their sales operations are spread throughout members in this Chamber to pay a poll tax the nation. Once those companies move of $10 a year? It would be just a flea-bite outside certain areas and certain regions, or chicken-feed. But to every member of they are faced with huge additional costs a working class family a poll tax would as a result of the variations in specifications be an imposition. Take the case of a man laid down by housing authorities, the Federal who has a wife and seven children. If Department of Housing and Construction, those nine people were asked to pay $90 a State Housing Commissions, local authorities year in poll tax, we would be imposing on and even lending institutions. Because of them an iniquitous penalty. I will not the variations in specifications, the companies develop that point any further, although I are faced with wastage. The cost of wastage could say more about it. is eventually passed on to the home-owner. T am going to have a close look at the Mr. Gunn: What about metrication? Bill-not that it will make any difference, as the Government has already made up its Mr. WRIGHT: I think that has simplified mind. This so-called anti-Communist Gov­ it in some ways. But let us take the simple ernment is doing things in almost every wall stud. In New South Wales t'he require­ piece of legislation that are Communistic in ment is a 3 x 2. In Victoria the requirement their very essence. We have one example in is a 4 x 1t. I will not convert those into Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 589 metric. I think the Victorian Housing Com­ The Bill is the first step. Other States miSSIOn states that all houses built by it have introduced similar legislation, and must have 4 x 1t wall studs. The spacing Queensland is now falling into line. How· distances between studs vary from 18 ins. ever, there is an urgent need to bring about to 24 ins. All members will realise that some uniformity in timber sizes. I should this must create difficulties with sheeting and like to see all people involved in the build­ wall skins. Those are just some of the ing industry-the lending authorities, the problems. The size of the stud is basic Housing Commission, the Commonwealth to all materials. It determines not only Department of Housing and Construction, the the size of the sheeting but also the size State Government and local authorities­ of the door-jambs. If in fitting a door-jamb get together to arrive at such uniformity on a builder uses 4 x 1t studs and affixes a a national basis. particular type of building board-one type I accept the need for some variation, for may be fc in. thick and another might be example, in cyclone-prone areas. But I have l- in.-he would need to install a door­ discussed this matter with architects, and I jamb of a certain size. However, if he have been told that the main problem in uses 3 x 2 studs and wall materials of such areas is not the size of the timber used another thickness the door-jamb has to be but the technique of construction. I accept of a different size. The whole business is that there should be variations in those areas; very complicated. nevertheless such variations do not destroy Mr. Casey: It is the over-all specification. the argument that I am putting forward in The size and type and the placing of studs my call for uniformity in timber sizes. The depend on the roof loading. problem is further aggravated by varying specifications for timber, brick-veneer and Mr. WRIGHT: I shall come back to cavity-brick dwellings. details such as that. The point I am making The State Government should consult with is that specifications prepared by local the Forestry Department to determine the authorities, the Defence Service Homes Div­ extent of the timber resources that are avail­ ision and the Housing Commission vary a able to it, with particular emphasis on tim­ great deal in stipulating timber sizes. They ber sizes. What I am saying is that the also differ in their requirements as to the Government should determine the most spaces between studs. economic size of the timber that can be cut from our available stands of timber. Mr. Cascy: But it's not just the studs. Merchants in my area have stressed the fact That is what I am saying. that the State is wasting millions of dollars Mr. WRIGHT: I will come onto that, worth of timber by requiring timber used in and perhaps the honourable member might home construction to be of certain sizes. care to explain this point. As I have said, The Bill refers to structures, as such, but this is a complex matter. this matter could be given further consider­ ation. As I said in answer to an interjection The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. from the honourable member for Mackay, Row): Order! I hope that honourable mem­ door-jambs and wall studs are not the only bers will not complicate the debate with components of houses that are involved; too many technicalities. there are also variations in thicknesses of window heads. It is all tied up with the Mr. WRIGHT: I shall try not to, Mr. ratio of thickness to length. Roof purlins, Row. In fact I am trying very hard to under­ floor joists and other fittings are involved. stand it myself. I say again it is a com­ In accordance with that ratio, if the length plicated question, but it is also a very import­ varies, so, too, must the thickness vary. The ant question. The costs involved are phen­ industry's problems are further compounded. omenal and, generally speaking, they are Exterior timbers have different specifications, borne by the consumers. Of course, costs are whether they be weatherboard or chamfer also carried by the timber industry and by board. the builders. I have already spoken about There are further differences in seasoning this matter to the Minister, and I know requirements. The specified moisture con­ that he is interested in it. tent varies from 12 per cent in some To revert to the point I was making­ authorities to 18 per cent in others. Floor different thicknesses of wall sheeting and thickness requirements vary. One man told varying sizes of studs call for a huge variety me that most authorities accept H in. dressed of sizes in door-jambs. As to wall sheeting, timber as inch flooring, while other authori­ hardboard may be -h in. in thickness, plaster­ ties require it to be t in. dressed. The board varies from t in. to to in. and asbestos difference is only nr in., but it is obvious board is -h in. in thickness. that huge costs are involved when timber merchants and builders have to meet varying A case has been put forward by C. and requirements. While Hyne & Son may be H. Wood Products, a Tasmanian manufact­ able to operate satisfactorily under the various urer of door-jambs-in fact the firm is one local authorities and the Housing Commission of the largest suppliers in this field-to in Queensland, the moment the firm becomes arrive at some uniformity in stipulating the involved with Defence Service Homes, or size of wall studs. in another State, it encounters difficulties. 590 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

Some authorities and lending groups allow also complained about a pre-school which 8 ft. ceilings. Others allow 7 ft. ceilings is to be erected at Clontarf, again with­ under the house, and 7 ft. 6 ins. in laundries. out reference to the council. I believe that Other States say that none of these heights these projects are essential, and I certainly are satisfactory and that ceilings must be do not support the council's contention that 8 ft. 3 ins. they are in the wrong location. Local authorities should be consulted by all Gov­ Mr. Gunn: This Bill corrects all of that. ernments when new buildings are contem­ Mr. WRIGHT: In some ways it may, but plated, if only to ascertain if the local I am not quite sure. It may contain general authority has a particular plan for the area. requirements but I do not think it will [Sitting suspended from I to 2.15 p.m.] specify that ceilings must be 8 ft. and that that will be the over-all, uniform height in Mr. FRA WLEY: When we adjourned for all the States, for all authorities, lending the luncheon recess I was about to mention institutions and Housing Commission groups. lmagine the effect of such a move on the that the Leader of the Opposition had building industry. attempted to raise the issue of centralism. We all know that that is a subject very Maybe the Minister can get his experts dear to his heart and to the heart of his to consider if these variations are really Federal Leader (Mr. Whitlam), who would necessary. Is the Defence Service Homes be the greatest centralis! of all time. This body correct in saying that its specifications measure allows any local authority to admin­ are better than those of the Housing Com­ ister its building by-laws. The only change mission? I do not think they are. All the now is that by-laws throughout the State authorities should get together, but they all will be uniform. Instead of each local seem to think that their ideas are best. l authority having its own set of by-laws, there emphasise the effect on those in the industry will now be a standard set for the whole and the consumers, and the fact that addi" State. I cannot see centralism creeping in tional costs are passed onto intending home­ under this proposal. owners. I appreciate that the Minister is taking a Returning to my point about the Crown's forward step in bringing this legislation before not having to apply for permission in any us. I hope we will not be confronted with area to erect a building-late last year the problems referred to by the Leader of the State Government Insurance Ofli:e announced Opposition and the honourable member for a plan to build a satellite city of 35,000 Townsville South. Personally, I do not people in the Burpengary-Morayfield area, believe that we will be, but this is only the which is about 40 kilometres north of first step. The Minister should confer with Brisbane. the Minister for Police-the former Minister The State Government Insurance Office for Works-who obviously has expertise in is to be commended on envisaging such an these things. Together they should approach undertaking, but surely the Caboolture Shire other members of Cabinet to consider ways Council and I should have been consulted. in which timber sizes can be standardised. The first we knew about the proposal was In this way they will be helping the State, when we read it in the Saturday morning the industry and builders and, above all, "Courier-Mail". I believe that any Govern­ new home-owners. ment department intending to erect a build­ Mr. FRAWLEY (Murrumba) (12.58 p.m.): ing should have the decency to tell the local This Bill to introduce standard building by­ member and shire council. laws in Queensland will be acclaimed by the The provision for a daily penalty of $50 majority of local authorities, and certainly by when an owner fails to comply with a those that are contiguous, because most notice from the local authority to cease builders operate in adjoining shires. I served work on a building for which no permit for six years on the Redcliffe City Council's has been granted is most commendable. As building committee and am conversant with I said, I served for six years on the Redcliffe some of the problems encountered by local authorities in their building by-laws. Although City Council building committee. We encount­ the Crown is to be bound by the new ered no end of trouble with builders who building by-laws, I am concerned in that commenced work before they were issued it will not be required to make application with a building permit. That practice should to a local authority for approval to erect be stopped, and this may be one method of a building. Buildings erected by the Crown doing so. invariably conform to the local authority 1 do not intend to widen the debate by building standards. Nevertheless, the Crown referring to the City of Brisbane Town should be required to apply for building Planning Act, but it is mentioned in the permits. Bill. Anyone who has read the report of The Redcliffe City Council has complained Mr. Arnold Bennett, Q.C., on the dealings to me about the Crown's decision to erect of the Brisbane City Council with land­ a new primary school in West Redcliffe holders knows just what rackets and bribery (which is in the electorate of Murrumba), ex;st in the Brisbane City Council on without reference to the council. It has town-planning. Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 591

I hope provision will be made for local have only something like a week and a half authorities to grant some form of dispensation to peruse the Bill. We will be lucky if we for extensions to existing buildings. Although are given as much time as that. I hope that a dwelling may have been built many years we are allowed sufficient time to have a ago under a different set of by-laws, some good look at it. councils expect that it should be brought Honourable members represent various up to present-day standards when the owner parts of Queensland, and even though the applies to add a room or an extra toilet. Local Government Association of Queensland It is unreasonable to expect any home-owner is on side, that association is composed of to bring an old building up to present-day members representing only certain areas. Its specifications simply because he wants to representation does not cover the 131 local extend it. I hope the Bill contains a provision authorities in Queensland. I think it is to allow councils to include a by-law giving incumbent on honourable members to discuss dispensation from that requirement. the provisions of this Bill with the various I think the honourable member for Rock­ local authorities in their electorates. After hampton said that every piece of timber all, that is our function. used in constructing buildings throughout the We have heard much during this debate country should be standard. and previously about the lack of liaison between the Queensland and Commonwealth Mr. Wright: No I didn't, but go on. Governments. Let us in this State Parlia­ ment set the example. Let the 82 members Mr. FRAWLEY: If he did say that, it of this Parliament discuss this Bill with all shows how little he knows about the building local authorities in the State, not simply the trade. Some flexibility must be allowed. few who are represented on the Local Allowance must be made for materials over­ Government Association of Queensland. In size or undersize by a millimetre. Especially that way honourable members could have in cases where the difference is small, some full and frank discussion on these model flexibility is essential. I fail to see how by-laws that will concern those local authori­ there could be a hard-and-fast rule about ties. All points of view could then be put exact measurements in everything. That is forward. absolutely impossible. I was concerned at the comment of the The Bill is a genuine attempt to overcome Minister during his introductory remarks some of the problems confronting local that one of the main reasons for the intro­ authorities. It will certainly give more pro­ duction of this Bill was the fact that builders tection to the home-owner. I commend the move interstate and national builders operate Minister and his committee for the work in all States. This may have been a reason they have put into the Bill and I look but surely the main reason for adopting a forward to examining its clauses closely when standard building code would be the pro­ it is printed. tection of the purchaser of a dwelling or of a major construction, as well as protection Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (2.19 p.m.): I also and safety of the public at all times. I would compliment the Minister on having think this is the major consideration-and it brought this legislation before us. It is a must be brought to the fore-rather than measure that has long been awaited. The the convenience of major national building matter of standard by-laws has been raised organisations and the benefits for them. many times by local authorities in the last The Bill contains some long-awaited pro­ decade and for many years before that. visions such as that requiring the State As the Minister said in his introductory Government to conform to certain building remarks. a considerable amount of work has codes. I hope that this is the forerunner of been done during the past 10 years. I can many building provisions and that the State recall in the period in which I was in local Government will accept this particular prin­ authority prior to entering Parliament being ciple in a number of other avenues. Other handicapped in revisions of by-laws because honourable members would appreciate my no standard provision covered certain aspects comment that if the State Government of building requirements for all areas of adhered to the by-laws and Health Acts in the State as a guide to local authorities. the construction of schools and similar I stress that this is what the Bill should buildings, rather than override local authority be and should be considered to be. I sincerely by-laws covering these matters, the com­ hope that it is really a guide to local munity would derive considerable benefit. I authorities and that in accepting its pro­ hope that the Minister will take note of that visions they will still have the flexibility and endeavour to get some of his ministerial which is so necessary for their operations. colleagues to look at the way in which they During the debate we have heard that the completely disregard various council and Bill has been considered for a number of local authority by-laws on matters other than months by several Government committees. building. The Minister said that it is a very technical It is all very well adopting standard Bill requiring a good deal of consideration. by-laws on buildings, but local authorities But, knowing the usual manner in which are not properly supervising building con­ legislation is presented in this Parliament, I struction and this neglect is becoming more have no doubt that honourable members will prevalent. A local authority grants a building 592 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill permit for either a major construction or a as a result of the Darwin tragedy. I have dwelling-house. But what happens? The been more fortunate than many others in applicant pays the permit fees and has the that I have had an opportunity to visit plan approved, but in many cases the moment Darwin since the cyclone struck, and to its cash register stops ringing the local study the problems that arose there. The authority does nothing more about the work. devastation was certainly far greater than any Mr. Gunn: They are not doing their job. ever seen on the Queensland coastline, but similar destruction could take place in Mr. CASEY: They are certainly not doing Queensland. their job. I would say that the building I have discussed the matter with people supervisors of most local authorities in who were involved with technical aspects of Queensland are not supervising building con­ the Bill, and it appears that its provisions struction work. Again, it has become a costly were drafted and completed prior to the operation. Local authorities are beginning Darwin tragedy. I think that we have to to reach the stage where, instead of taking take a much closer look at the contents of steps that are necessary to control their own the Bill covering structures in areas of high finances, they are more content to sit back wind. To the cyclone areas of North Queens­ and seek additional hand-outs. I think they land this will be one of its most vital pro­ should take a very close look at themselves. visions. I know that there have been many There is a tendency for members of local debates, rows, discussions and questions in authorities not to introduce unpopular this Chamber on storm and tempest insur­ measures. ance. We in the North are paying much Just as the Premier and other Ministers higher premiums for such insurance cover have a tendency to accuse the Commonwealth than those paid by people in any other area Government of everything that goes wrong, in Australia. I do not want to introduce this so local authorities like to blame both the argument-- State and Commonwealth Governments. They have power under their own by-laws to take The CHAIRMAN: Order! I was about to whatever action is necessary in their own tell the honourable member that I would not areas to deal with their own financial allow it. position, but they are not doing so. Mem­ Mr. CASEY: The argument is rather long bers of local authorities are not prepared to and complex but it is tied closely to building make themselves unpopular in their own requirements in local authority areas in North areas. What the community needs are many Queensland. more men and women of integrity who are prepared to stand up and be frank in their Surely a person who builds his house in communities and make the decisions that conformity with a by-law that lays down have to be made by local authorities. I very stringent conditions for prevention of may get an opportunity to deal further with cyclone damage, or a building code that that matter at a later date. applies all the measures known to modern technology for preserving a building from I hope that local authorities make use of cyclone damage, should be afforded some the standard by-laws to insist on proper financial advantage in the premiums he pays standards. I am not referring now to new for storm and tempest insurance over the buildings. The Bill apparently gives legal person living next door, for example, who backing to local authorities should they wish has not taken any precautions and who, to take action to remove old substandard under the circumstances now existing, enjoys buildings in their areas. In the major equal protection if his house is damaged provincial cities, and even in Brisbane, one in a cyclone. can see, among new public and commercial If the standard building by-laws set out buildings, dilapidated, ramshackle, cor­ very clearly and firmly what measures have rugated-iron structures that completely to be taken in areas of high wind velocity­ detract from the over-all standard of the and I believe that people should be com­ area. I think that local authorities should pelled to take them in their own interests­ use their powers to create a good environ­ Governments must consider ways of assisting ment and enforce their own by-laws, par­ persons in those areas to bear the additional ticularly on commercial enterprises, to ensure financial burden that is placed upon them. that substandard structures are removed in I refer specifically to persons building their city areas. own dwelling-houses. The Minister mentioned that the Bill would The problem must be considered very include provisions dealing with structures in carefully. After all, local authorities are areas that are subject to strong winds. This not the only ones who are called upon to is one matter that concerns me greatly. I meet the cost of cyclone damage or wind live in a city that is one of the most vul­ damage in their areas. As we have seen nerable of all cities in Queensland, and indeed from recent tragedies in Australia, Mr. in Australia, to high wind damage. Mackay Hewitt-for example, in the Brisbane floods is in a cyclone area, and its residents, along and in the Darwin cyclone-the Common­ with those of other North Queensland cities, wealth Government, through the public purse each year sit in the cyclone corridor and of the people of Australia, eventually is wonder whether they will cop it. A lot of required to meet the cost. Theref<;>re, _if publicity has been given to cyclones, mainly appropriate by-laws are to be applied m Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 593 areas of high wind velocity, they should be Mr. CASEY: In winds of high velocity, framed in such a way that they are not outhouses such as fowl houses and milk sheds just general guide-lines under which local are the first to go. Flying debris causes authorities will have power to make alter­ further damage. It has a snowballing effect. ations or variations. To ensure the over-all Debris hitting a house causes damage a~d protection of the public purse, they must be dislodges more material to blow around m made very stringent. the wind. That aspect of the Bill needs to Standard building by-laws are certainly be looked at moLe closely. not sufficient for areas of high wind velocity. The Minister indicated that those who The honourable member for Rockhampton feel that they have some grievance about spoke at some length about timber sizes. the standards that have been laid down or I do not agree completely with his com­ who wish to appeal against a local authority ments, although standardisation of timber decision can get a referee appointed or go sizes does make sense. I wish to indicate before a body which I understand is to be to the Committee that some of the major known as the Building Advisory Committee. problems in the construction of houses in It is obvious from the Minister's comments areas of high wind velocity are associated that the decision of that body will be binding with cbdding. Once the roof of a building on all parties. There will still be a right of goes, the remainder of the house soon begins appeal to the Local Government Court, but moving. I have in my hand an example of such right of appeal will be allowable only the type of spring-headed nail that is used when there has been an error in law or a fairly generally for fixing roofs in Queens­ misjudgment about jurisdiction. ~n actu~l land today. It has a very small head, and fact the Building Advisory Committee Will the skirting on the end of it, which in fa~t have the last say on the technical aspects holds it to the nail, is made of very thm of a problem, and nobody will have a right galvanised iron. There is no question that, of appeal beyond that committee. That is a once the wind becomes fairly strong, it very grave denial of common justice to the tears the spring head over the small round people of Queensland. It is not in the best head of the nail, and away goes the roof. interests of the people because it means the Mr. Gmm: What about lead-headed nails? loss of their normal right to take a decision of a local authority to the Local Govern­ Mr. CASEY: They are in much the same ment Court and to appeal in the proper way category. The type of cladding that should against that decision. be used these days is in fact screw cladding, This outside body will be made up of and I have one of the screws here, too. In selected persons who no doubt will be fact, screw cladding pulls the roof structure appointed by the Governor in Council. The down into the timber. Of course, although Minister has not indicated that, but I feel it is much stronger, it is much more costly sure that the Bill provides for appointments to use on the roof. Even the labour cost to be made by the Governor in Council. involved in screwing it down is considerable. That selected group of persons will make a This means that home-owners in areas sub­ determination whether a person has the right ject to cyclone or wind damage, and . also in law or otherwise to have a building pro­ commercial builders in such areas, are liable posal accepted by a local authority. That is for a great deal of additional cost. But a strong denial of the rights of the people. unless standards of cladding in cyclone areas Certainly it is a travesty of justice. That are laid down, we still will not achieve what part of the Bill should be altered. People we are attempting to achieve in over-all must retain their present rights. At the building standards. I agree that these may present time a person 'Yho. is dissatisfied. "':ith be very technical matters, but they are all a decision on an applicatiOn for a burldmg of great importance. permit has the right to go to the Local It has been indicated that local authorities Government Court. Requiring such a person in cyclone areas can introduce by-laws in to go before some side-tracking committee accordance with the relevant building stand­ denies him normal justice and common ard.,, and I do not think that is good enough. rights. Many types of wall board, for example, ~re useless i:1 cyclone areas. Gyprock, wh1ch One could talk on many other points when is a plasterboard, simply falls apart. It has a Bill to amend the Local Government Act no stre:1gth and will not hold together. All is being amended, particularly as the Minister those matters must be looked at. Very has included in his motion the words "for stringent provisions must be laid down. related purposes." Reference has been made to poll tax. I do not think there is any need The Minister indicated that outhouse for the imposition of poll tax. Local autho:­ buildings in rural areas-even outhou~e ities already have the power under their buildings like boat-sheds and greenhous.es m by-laws to levy a type of poll tax on per­ normal urban areas-need not necessarily sons who are not landowners. Local author­ conform to the standards laid down. I dis­ ities register flats. Permits have to be agree with that, particularly in the areas obtained from local authorities for the build­ that are subject to high winds. ing of fiats. At the present time owners of The CHAIRMAN: Order! Honourable fiats pay about $1 a year to register them. members will not loiter in the lobbies. Why not make it $50 a year? That is all 594 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill local authorities have to do, but, because of the standard sewerage and water supply it is an unpleasant decision, and one they regulations and for that reason, if for no do not wish to make, they steer clear of it. other, should be implemented. (Time expired.) Over the years I have made applications to smaller local authorities to construct Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (2.40 p.m.): I larger buildings or buildings of a different congratulate the Minister on his introduction type, only to be told that they have n_o of this measure. As chairman of the Pine by-law covering such structures. Under this Rivers Shire Council Health, Building and Bill every local authority, even the Woocoo Town Planning Committee and also as a and Murweh Shire Councils, will have by­ practising architect, I strongly support it. laws to cover all types of buildings. Whereas The opportunity to erect new forms of ut present they have no control in this field, housing, as mentioned by the Leader of they will be given it by this measure, and the Opposition, will not be taken from the l strongly support it and commend it to the community, nor will fishermen's huts be any Committee. different. Local authorities will continue to deal with applications as before, and they will Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (2.43 p.m.): I do continue to exercise the same controls. not have very much to say on this very important measure; I wish to make only Mr. Hinze: At last we've got a sensible a few observations on it. While the Leader speaker. of the Opposition was speaking to this Bill Mr. AKERS: I thank the Minister. this morning, my thoughts turned to the criticism that has been levelled over the years The matters of builders' registration and by builders at the building code. One major contracts are not even contained in the Bill complaint has been that builders were unable and therefore should not have been intro­ to obtain printed copies of that code. Excuses duced by the Leader of the Opposition into were offered for its non-availability. Appli­ the debate. Town-planning approvals do cants for copies were told, for example, that not come within the Bill as inferred by it was out of print. the Leader of the Opposition. His right to appeal against developments that he is not I sincerely hope that the standard building happy with will not be taken from him. code will be printed in the near future and There is no possibility whatever of his los­ will be put on sale to the public, because ing that right. It is quite wrong for him they, us well as builders, mt~st. be able to to infer otherwise. acquaint themselves with burldmg require­ ments. The difficulty arising from varying local My leader expressed cancer~ at. the pr_os­ authority building by-laws is not as great pect of shortcomings in the Bill m relat!on in Queensland as it is in, say, Victoria or to the rights of people in the commumty, New South Wales. It is probably for this particularly those who wish t? erect small reason that Queensland is the last State buildings, for example at seaside resorts or to introduce standard building by-laws. Other at other locutions to which they choose capital cities have a multitude of building to retire. He expressed the fear that the authorities with small areas of influence. building requirements will force such people For example, in Sydney the Lane Cove to erect palatial dwellings v.:hich they ~a~­ Council covers only four square miles, and not possibly afford. At this stage I 1~111 the Bankstown Council, which controls one in his criticism, believing it to be vahd. of the city's largest municipalities, exercises Until we see the measure, we are quite control over only 30 square miles. In con­ entitled to make such observations. It may trast, the Pine Rivers Shire embraces an be said that we are trying to be clairvoyant, area of something like 300 square miles. but I think the Minister will agree that Because of the small areas of influence of these matters should be referred to at this local authorities in Sydney, building within stage. I sincerely hope that such restrictions 100 yards of each other are erected under a will not apply. wide variety of building by-laws. Even The new code should make special though the city of Brisbane is approximately reference to city buildings. From my lengthy 900 square miles in area, similar difficulties local government experience, I believe that are created by varying requirements. For the main shortcomings in the present code example, in my office I found it necessary relate to the use of city buildings by the to prepare a chart depicting the various room general public. To clarify that point I empha­ sizes, side boundary clearances and frontage sise that the present building code fails to set-backs as well as notations as to whether recognise the difficulties confronting aged the space under houses must be enclosed and infirm people. Young people and others in certain areas. The whole matter of home who can move around freely can trip in and construction is quite complicated. In relation out of those buildings easily; but building to larger buildings, it is even frightening. codes in the United States and other coun­ Like several previous speakers, I loathe tries cater for people with physical short­ the removal of any authority from local comings. I sincerely hope that the new code government, but I have looked deeply into provides for aged and infirm people. People this matter and come to the conclusion who have to use wheelchairs experience that these by-laws fall within the category great difficulty in getting from one floor to Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 595 another in buildings without lifts, ramps, or Bank. All organisations appeared to have even a staircase railing. Many people, slightly different specifications. The builder including paraplegics, are confined to wheel­ himself would not know what specifications chairs. They must cope, or live with their to use. All in all, a lot of time and effort difficulties, but they find it almost impossible was wasted by many people. The finance to get around in some of the modem build­ institutions and home buyers will be happy ings that have no facilities to help them. I, at the introduction of this legislation. and others, have raised these matters over The Minister has said that the Crown the years. I hope that the new code makes will be bound by the provisions of the Bill. provision for people in this situation, especi­ Of course, we all fully support that. Com­ ally with reference to new commercial build­ ment has been made that the Crown does ings. not have to apply to local authorities for Let me digress for a moment to point out consent to build. Some speakers have men­ that aged and infirm people experience great tioned that delays can occur in the issuing difficulty in getting to our beautiful City of permits in some local authority areas. Square if the access ramp is blocked bv [ can say with confidence that the Minister traffic. The stairways have no rails and would have found no delays occurring in facilities are not provided for aged people the Townsville City Council. However, some or those who cannot move about freely. I local authorities suffering problems because guppose this matter was forgotten in planning of expansion have delays in issuing permits, the square. and I can well understand why the Crown It has been said that this measure will would not want to wait for a permit to be have some influence on the City of Brisbane issued. However, I hope that the Crown Town Planning Act. Mr. Hewitt, you have will bind itself to the provisions of the Bill. already ruled that you do not want the town That is most important. plan discussed, but we could talk about it I would like to see the Crown go one for the res.t of the day in a constructive way. step further and bind itself to building in Many of the commercial buildings con­ accordance with town-planning conditions structed recently on Gregory Terrace make no laid down by city councils. In Townsville, provision for car parking. That is another State departments, particularly police and provision that I hope will be included in the railways, have erected in an area of brick building code. Provision must be made for homes or concrete structures buildings sufficient parking space adjacent to a new which, though in themselves built reasonably structure. In this and many other cities in well and to a good standard, have galvanised the Commonwealth it is difficult to find iron or fibro sheeting. Hence, they are not adequate parking space for those wanting to in character with the existing surroundings. conduct business within the building. I hope that in future the Crown will comply with town-planning requirements as well as I felt that those few observations were building requirements. necessary. Perhaps when the time comes for Comment has been made that the legis­ the implementation of the legislation those lation should provide standards in the size suggestions will be considered. of timber and other materials. I am sure Mr. M. D. HOOPER (Townsville West) that it will. Naturally, they should be (2.51 p.m.): I have much pleasure in sup­ minimum standards and northern areas such porting the introduction of the Bill. As so as Townsville and Mackay affected by many speakers have already said, 131 local cyclones should be allowed to impose addit­ authorities in Queensland have been asking ional standards if they think fit. for it. In addition, many important people The Leader of the Opposition--or it may and organisations have been pressing for it have been the honourable member for for many years. I speak of those people Bulimba-mentioned damage to homes in who want their homes built in a hurry Townsville during cyclone "Althea" three and have trouble finding finance. Till years ago. Although some instances were recently, organisations such as the Housing given of houses having insufficient cyclone Commission, the Commonwealth Bank, build­ bolts, most of the damage was done through ing societies generally and Defence Service roofing material being inferior or incor­ Homes had slightly different specifications. rectly fastened. Light aluminium sheeting To look at, the homes were much the same, and concrete and terracotta tiles were found but the specifications differed somewhat. to be very susceptible to breakage. Once Having been in real estate for the bulk there was one break in a roof, away went of my life until some five or six years the whole roof and eventually it caused ago, I can speak with some authority about damage to the house next door. Then there the time and effort wasted by many young was a snowballing effect all along the people attempting to buy homes. They street. might have applied to Defence Service Glass, too, is susceptible to cyclone damage. Homes, been put on the list to buy a home, Unfortunately, today many homes are built and found one, but then discovered a slight with large, sliding, ranch-style windows open­ fault or failure to comply with the specifica­ ing onto front patios. The glass is so thin tions of Defence Service Homes and so been that it cannot withstand the impact of high­ unable to buy the home. The same thing velocity winds. Once the glass goes, the has happened with the Commonwealth wind gets inside the home and blows walls 596 Building Bill [10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

out and the roof off. The items most sus­ the materials used in them. It is expected ceptible to damage in the cyclone areas that a!J of the members will be experts in are glass and insecure roofing material. I am the building area. The committee will not sure that local authorities will be given the be involved in any labour-relations aspect right to insist on more stringent controls in of building. this area. The Leader of the Opposition suggested The Leader of the Opposition felt that in that unionists and university researchers the introduction of this legislation the Gov­ should be on the committee. The committee ernment was trying to introduce centralised can seek outside expert advice if necessary control. I cannot agree with him. He must but it is felt that there is a need to keep realise by now that local authorities through­ the committee to a reasonable working size. out the State are behind this legislation. If union representation is to be considered, When it is passed, the actual administration which union should be represented, and why? and control of it will rest with the local What expertise would he bring to the authority. committee? The Bill provides that if any dispute arises The honourable members for Bulimba and between the local authority and the building Sandgate supported the provision of facilities contractor, the contractor can apply to the for handicapped persons in general. The council to have the dispute heard by a by-laws cover such facilities as theatres and referee or an advisory committee comprising other places of public entertainment. For reputable people in the profession in that example, special provisions for access and city. He will not have to wait to go before toilet facilities are included for this type the Local Government Court or incur the of building. expense of legal representation. The matter The honourable member for Bulimba can be resolved fairly quickly to the satis­ raised the matter of penalties. The amounts faction of all parties. The Bill provides for mentioned at the introductory stage were justice and honesty and, as I said before, maximums. The actual penalties will, of as so many people are in support of the course, be at the discretion of the court legislation, I commend it to the Committee. in the particular circumstances of the case. Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister Virtually every speaker referred to the by­ for Local Government and Main Roads) laws being binding on the Crown. The (2.57 p.m.), in reply: I thank all honourable honourable member for Bulimba said that members for their contributions to the debate. he is pleased that the uniform by-laws I commend them particularly for their interest will be binding on the Crown. However. in this most important Bill and the way he is concerned that the Crown will not they have debated it. As I said at the be required to apply to the local authority introductory stage, this type of legislation concerned for approval to erect a building. has been or is being introduced in all other This provision is seen as consistent with States. It will be good for the industry, the the relative positions of the Crown and a local authorities and the people Jiving within local authority which, in any case, is a the boundaries of the local authorities. It statutory body. I do not see why the was pleasing to hear the worthy contributions Crown, in its building activities, should be to the debate made by honourable members subservient to local authorities. However, with local government experience. it is proposed that the Crown will provide the local authority concerned at an early stage­ The honourable member for Bulimba, lead­ [ emphasise "at an early stage"-with plans ing on behalf of the Opposition, referred and other details of buildings proposed to be to local autonomy. He pointed out that erected. uniform building by-laws would take from local authorities a certain amount of local The Crown will itself ensure that buildings autonomy. That could be correct. It would erected by it conform with the uniform by­ occur in any avenue where it was sought laws. I do know that some of the things to attain uniformity. However, the gains will mentioned by some speakers in this debate more than outweigh the losses. The Local have actually occurred. I think that it is Government Association and the local necessary for both the Crown and the local authorities recognise this. However, local authority to recognise the position. That is authorities will have more powers under why I say that at an early stage the Crown this legislation than under the present legis· will give to the local authority plans of lation. The uniform by-laws are largely any building proposed to be erected. technical and provide minimum standards. The honourable member for Bulimba refer­ Any person building in a particular area red to the need for provisions relating to can build to a higher standard if he so safety in the construction of buildings. Safety desires. is already covered by the Construction Safety The honourable member for Bulimba asked Act. why the Building Advisory Committee did The honourable member also referred to not include a union representative. The building materials, and said that a person answer is simply that the committee is a having a building erected may not be aware technical one that will deal particularly with of the real nature of the materials being design and construction of buildings and used. He said that a person employing an Building Bill (10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill 597

architect may not know if a new material, of gentlemen with experience similar to his. or a form of construction, is adequate for That is why its membership is growing so the proposed purpose. The by-laws provide rapidly. for a local authority to obtain from the Mr. K. J. Hooper interjected. applicant, where necessary, documentary evidence to its satisfaction that the material Mr. HINZE: I like you, too. to be used is satisfactory. The council may also test the material or the form of con­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the mutual struction. A number of recognised testing admiration society has quite finished, we authorities are also listed in the by-laws. will get back to the Bill. !'n Australia-wide system of testing mater­ Mr. HINZE: The honourable member for I~ls and forms of construction is being con­ Somerset mentioned the need for action in Sidered by the Interstate Standing Committee the case of dangerous structures-in par­ on Uniform Building Regulations. ticular, awnings. The uniform by-laws will The honourable member for Callide in contain powers to enable the local authority his usual boisterous way-- ' to deal with dangerous structures. Mr. Jensen: He takes after you. The Leader of the Opposition said-­ Mr. HINZE: I taught him. A Government Member: Who is he? The honourable member said that a set Mr. HINZE: "Tangalooma Tom". He said of standard by-laws would impose one stan­ that the Bill was a blatant exercise in cen­ dard throughout all parts of the State. He tralism. Imagine anybody on that side of referred to Stanthorpe, Cooktown, and so the House, Mr. Hewitt, referring to centra­ on. The by-laws set minimum standards lism! What a joke! This is related to the that a sensible owner or builder will exceed reference by the honourable member for if necessary. He doubted if the standard Bulimba to some loss of local autonomy. building by-laws would improve the present The remarks quoted, and attributed to the situation. As mentioned at the introductory Mayor of Mackay, Alderman Albie Abbott, stage, most by-laws are now out of date do not relate to the Building Bill. and local authorities do not have the tim~ It must be realised that action is being to. amend them. Uniform building by-laws taken in all States to obtain some uniformity will . be kept up to date by the Building in building construction. It is not consistent Advisory Committee on the advice of depart­ with this move that Queensland local authori­ mental officers, by I.S.C.U.B.R., and by local ties retain the right to lay down minimum authorities. technical standards for buildings. Also, it The honourable member for Callide when is recognised in Queensland that local authori­ referring to alterations of buildings, 'raised ties are not in a position to maintain their the matter of the power given to local building by-laws at a high level of tech­ authorities to require the whole building to nical excellence consistent with modern be brought up to the standard of new build­ requirements and changing needs. However, ings under the uniform building by-laws. the uniform by-laws will still leave with the The power referred to at the time of alter­ local authority a considerable amount of ation of a building covers the situation local discretion, and this aspect will be dealt where, in the opinion of the local authority with further during the second-reading stage. the building or structure is unsafe or struct: If a person desires to construct a building urally unsound. Where approval to carry at a higher standard, there is nothing to out an alteratio? or addition is sought, stop him from doing so. I am not in the local authonty may require that the accord with the suggestion that fishermen's whole building or structure be brou<>ht shacks should be allowed willy-nilly through­ into conformity with such provisions "of out Queensland and without any form of the by-law as will ensure that the building control. However, the by-laws do have regard or structure is made safe and structurally to the need for different types of buildings, sound. That does not seem to be an and also for the exclusion of certain build­ unreasonable requirement. Safety of persons ings from the uniform code. In that regard, would be the main criterion for action I refer specifically to fishermen's shacks. A by a local authority in that case. one-room dwelling with a minimum floor The honourable member for Somerset who area of 18t square metres-about 200 square is chairman of my parliamentary loca{ gov­ feet-is allowable in certain circumstances, ernment and main roads committee, has been with council approval. a local government representative and chair­ The Leader of the Opposition thought man of a local authority for many years. that $50 a day as the continuing penalty Mr. Jensen: A good man. was not a very large fine, particularly in relation to a big project. I think that the Mr. HINZE: He would have to be to be daily fine is a reasonable one, particularly a member of the National Party and to in view of other action that may be taken make the contributions to debates in this by the local authority. For example, if Chamber that we have become accustomed work done does not conform with the by­ to hearing from him. The National Party laws, the council may order the work to be is very lucky to have his services and those demolished, or it may itself demolish the 598 Building Bill (10 APRIL 1975] Building Bill

work in case of default. The offender will buildin~ specifications and materials to be also be liable to an initial fine as well used m building. However, minimum as the daily penalty. standards are prescribed. Individual owners The honourable member for Townsville and builders will be able to construct to a South, the "Voice of the North", referred higher standard of building if they desire. to the Bill as a Communist move and regi­ However, local authorities will not be mentation. He also stated that the Bill allowed to insist on a higher standard. That was a theatrical exercise by persons who, is a most important point. he implied, were impractical. I stress that It is expected that all State authorities will the by-laws were in fact drafted by people not insist on higher standards than those well aware of the problems in the building prescribed in uniform by-laws. However industry throughout Australia, people who organisations such as Defence Service Homes are qualified in both the academic and the and lending institutions may continue to practical sense. They included persons prescribe higher standards. It is hoped, and engaged in research activities, such as officers I am sure, that the Building Advisory Com­ of the Commonwealth Experimental Building mittee will endeavour to move in this Station. direction, that all authorities wiJ,l eventually The honourable member for Townsville recognise the minimum standards provided in South referred also to activities of the the uniform by-laws. Preliminary discus­ Builders' Registration Board. I stress that sions have already taken place with repre­ the Building Bill in no way affects the acti­ sentatives from some of the lending authori­ vities of the Builders' Registration Board, ties, and co-operation is expected as far as which will still be in a position to act is technically possible. in respect of all building work. However, at the same time, the local authority will The honourable member for Townsville have considerable powers to ensure that good South stated that the standard building building standards are maintained. by-laws had been drawn up by theorists. The The by-laws being adopted in Queensland The Leader of the Opposition compli­ are based on the A.M.U.B.C., which was mented me on my proposal that a booklet prepared over a period of 10 years by the be produced for the information of the Interstate Standing Committee on Uniform general public on the subject of the uniform Building Regulations. That committee com­ by-laws. What is proposed is a booklet prises representa:tives of each of the States' which will explain the requirements of the Departments of Local Government and by-laws for the construction of a normal the Commonwealth Experimental Building dweHing~house. Uniform by-laws make con­ Station. The State representatives are also siderable reference to standard codes. Where members of each State's Building Advisory appropriate these standard codes will be Committee, and in this way the experience in incorporated in the booklet to be produced. their own States is passed on to them by It is expected that the booklet will be freely their own local authorities and other repre­ available to all interested persons. However, sentatives of the building industry in those some appropriate price may be charged in States. The Experimental Building Station accordance with printing costs. carries out research into practical problems The Leader of the Opposition referred to associated with building, and is respected the need for allowing experiments with the throughout Australia. The A.M.U.B.C. different types of buildings and building contains considerable fire safety requirements materials. The uniform by-laws will provide which have been the subject of discussions for that type of experiment, both in the with appropriate fire authorities throughout development of new materials and the Australia. development of new methods of construc­ The honourable member for Rockhampton tion. Certain powers will remain with both claimed that there was a need for uniformity the local authority and the Building Advisory in the size of timber, and he referred to Committee in this direction. Liaison will door-jambs as an example. Studies are also be maintained with other States through currently being done by the timber industry I.S.C.U .B.R. regarding such developments concerning structural timber sizes, but at throughout Australia. present they do not cover rationalising of The honourable gentleman referred to the timber trim sizes, for example, door-jambs. need to obtain site approval. There has This will no doubt occur in the long term been a misinterpretation of my remarks as present research and practices mature. At regarding planning law, probably in my an appropriate time the Building Advisory reference to the City of Brisbane Town Committee would consider amendments to Planning Act. I wish to make it clear that the by-laws based on submissions by the the Building Bill does not provide for the timber industry. granting of site approval. Town-planning The Metric Conversion Board and the Jaws will still apply, and any necessary Standards Association, with the timber town-planning approvals must be obtained industry, are actively pursuing the rational­ before a building permit can be granted. ising of building materials dimensions into The honourable member for Rockhampton preferred units, and this should lead to raised the need for uniformity in building further rationalisation of the examples men­ specifications. Uniform building by-Jaws will tioned by the honourable member for go a long way tov.ards providing uniform Rockhampton. Farm Water Supplies Assistance [10 APRIL 19751 Acts Amendment Bill 599

The honourable member for Mackay (b) To encourage greater development referred to particular types of roofing nails. of individual irrigation schemes by:­ My only comment here is that this would (i) Modern methods of water con­ be a matter for the local authority. He servation and harvesting; referred to the rights of the people. Objec­ (ii) Development and utilisation of tion is available to a referee, and an appeal subsurface supplies where such supplies then lies to the Building Advisory Committee. are known to .exist; and Objections and appeals will relate to technical issues only, and not a right to build. The (iii) Ensuring that such development right to build on a particular site still lies in is soundly planned, technically and town-planning law, and a right of appeal economically. to the court will remain. (c) To provide greater stability of, and The honourable member for Sandgate, generally increase, production and avoid who always makes sensible contributions to losses in time of drought. debates, referred to car-parking. This is a The Irrigation and Water Supply Commis­ town-planning matter and is dealt with by sion provides the technical assistance, charg­ local authorities under their town-planning ing a small fee for plans and specifications, by-Jaws. He also referred to provision for and makes recommendations to the Agricul­ physically handicapped persons. I have tural Bank when financial assistance is sought already referred to that matter. in accordance with the provisions of the Again I thank honourable members for Acts. their contributions to the debate, and I com­ The original Act was amended in 1963 to mend the Bill to the Committee. provide for payment of Agricultural Bank Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. management costs from the fund; for pay­ ment of interest and redemption from the Resolution reported. fund to the Treasury; and for advances to be made under terms similar to those apply­ FIRST READING ing to advances made under the Agricultural Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Bank (Loans) Act. The Acts were further Hinze, read a first time. amended in 1965 to provide that, where an application has been made for financial assist­ ance for works relating to the irrigation of FARM WATER SUPPLIES ASSISTANCE sugar-cane, the commission refers the applic­ ACTS AMENDMENT BILL cation for a report on the prospects of success to the Director of the Bureau of INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Sugar Experiment Stations. (Mr. Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) The Act has worked well and its success Hon. N. T. E. HEWITT (Auburn­ in achieving the purposes outlined, is shown Minister for Water Resources) (3.19 p.m.): by these figures:-from inception to 31 I move- December 1974 a total of 3,373 applications for financial assistance were received and "That a Bill be introduced to amend $9,583,338 was advanced in this period. ·the Farm Water Supplies Assistance Acts Some 10,521 applications have been received 1958 to 1965 in certain particulars." and advice given for technical assistance only In introducing the Bill, I remind members in this same period. of the circumstances in which the original From time to time requests have been Act was passed. In late 1957, when legisla­ received from landholders for financial tion was proposed in this respect, Queensland assistance for schemes that might be was suffering from drought. While large­ described as drainage works. The Act, as scale water-conservation schemes would have presently worded, enables advances to be helped, it was realised that many streams made for drainage works which are a neces­ and water-courses are unsuitable for the sary part of a work of water supply or provision of economical water-conservation irrigation, but it is considered that advances works by Government action. In any case, cannot be made for works designed to drain development by Government works in all wet lands to enable dry-land farming to be areas of the State would have taken a very carried on. long time. The Queensland Cane Growers' Council These factors led to the approach that has pointed out that there are areas in the landholders could better their position by State with high rainfall, such as in the area individual action to improve their existing from Mossman to Ingham, where water short­ facilities. As was then pointed out, land­ age is not the problem. The problem is the holders cannot be forced to improve their inability of natural drainage to remove excess water supplies but can be encouraged and water rapidly enough to prevent crop damage assisted to do so. or loss. The Act was passed in 1958 to achieve There is power under the Water Act to the following purposes:- authorise community drainage schemes, by (a) To improve the standard of stock constituting drainage areas and drainage and domestic water supply on individual boards. However, we are dealing here with holdings. cases where a community scheme is not 600 Farm Water Supplies Assistance [10 APRIL 1975] Acts Amendment Bill needed, or is not economically warranted. to further help the little farmer, which this The intention here is to enable financial party has always tried to do. The Labor advances to be given under the Farm Water Party has attempted to assist the farmer Supplies Assistance Act to encourage and in every possible way, and when amend­ assist th.e individual farmer to improve by ments are introduced we are on the side his own action his own position in regard to of those small farmers who require Govern­ drainage of farm lands, other than for works ment assistance. of water supply and irrigation. This amend­ As the Minister said, since the introduction ing legislation, therefore, enables that objec­ of the measure the Government has paid tive to be achieved. out something like $9,263,000. In 1973-74, The amendments of the Act are not $393,822 was advanced. Applications for large, but involve including the word "drain­ assistance, especially technical assistance, have age" in the preamble to the Act which increased. It is heartening to see small expresses the intention and purpose of the farmers seeking technical assistance for water Act. Similarly the definition of "Works" is conservation. They will now be able to broadened and a definition of "Drainage receive help in their drainage problems. I and drainage works" is inserted. trust that technical assistance is available I commend the Bill to the Committee. in that field. The Minister said that the assistance would Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (3.24 p.m.): not be directed towards community schemes. The Minister explained the reason for amend­ It is for the assistance of the individual ing the Act, but he did not say that the farmer. He must be guided by the experts, Honourable A. G. Muller introduced the original measure on 11 March 1958 and for when he is draining his farm he must outlined its purposes exactly. I did not hear be sure that he does not divert the water the Minister refer to some of the conditions to his neighbour's farm. I trust that the contained in that Bill, namely, that a farmer technical assistance will be directed at ensur­ could obtain a loan of up to 90 per cent of ing that drainage will be diverted into the the cost of the works, at an interest rate of natural waterways. only 5t per cent, over 12 years, including Technical assistance given by the Govern­ two years in which only inter,est would be ment has been excellent. In the 1973-74 report paid. The conditions set out by the Minis­ it can be seen that for technical assistance ter in those days were excellent. only there were 625 applications and for The Opposition at that time supported the financial assistance 110 applications-a total Bill in toto. Its then leader (Mr. L. A. Wood) of 735. The total outstanding is 403. This and other speakers from this side spoke year 885 have been approved, 687 for tech­ in support of the measure because our party, nical assistance and 198 for financial as is well known, has always supported rural assistance. assistance for small farmers. The Labor It augurs well for the farming community Party has done everything possible to support that concern is being shown about irrigation, them. In 1958 we welcomed the introduction water storage, water conservation and drain­ of the legislation. Similarly, we welcome age. Therefore, on behalf of the Opposition the present amendment. I have much pleasure in supporting the Although the amendments of 1963 and measure. I know that its introduction has 1965 were minor, in certain respects they been influenced, as the Minister said, by were important. The one in 1965, introduced the cane growers, probably to assist farmers by the Hon. H. Richter, provided assistance in the North who have problems with high to the sugar industry to ensure that irrigation rainfall. Farmers in my area have problems of cane farms was referred to the Bureau with low rainfall, the reverse situation. Our of Sugar Experiment Stations and not to problem is to get more water whereas theirs the Director-General of Primary Industries. is to get rid of some of it. We on this That was a good amendment and it was side of the Chamber have always respected supported completely by the Opposition. The the sugar industry. The Labor Government honourable member for Port Curtis (Mr. more or less set it up in 1915 and successive Hanson) mentioned at that time that the Governments have supported it in every way Government should not require repayment possible. Today, we endorse the measure of a loan until the farmer was using the introduced by the Minister. stored water, that is, producing and in a Mr. ROW (Hinchinbrook) (3.31 p.m.): I position to commence repayments. The sug­ support the Bill. As I come from an area gestion made when the legislation was origin­ where water is frequently an embarrass­ ally enacted was that a farmer should be ment. I am qualified to make some comment given a period of grace until the water on the proposal. When I say that water was available and he \\as producing. We still is an embarrassment to us, I mean not believe that to be most important. only during hotel sessions but also for many The Government gave quite a fair con­ months of the year. I am very pleased that cession whereby for a period of two years the Minister's committee, of which I am interest only had to be repaid. I know that a member, has approved of this Bill. The the honourable member for Port Curtis reference made by the honourable member wanted that concession extended in an effort for Bundaberg to legislation introduced by Farm Water Supplies Assistance [10 APRIL 1975] Acts Amendment Bill 601

a previous Government did not give us very vast area of the coastal sugar belt of Queens­ much encouragement. He referred only to land as a result of changing fortunes caused the usual old approach to water that has by nature. Water is, of course, very much been adopted in this State for so long­ tied up with this problem. conservation. Nobody has given very much In days gone by, tropical regions enjoyed thought to the over-all picture of total water a vast potential for the growth of crops management. through natural rainfall. In latter years, the I am pleased to see on the Business Paper construction of dams and the development of that the Water Act is to be amended. It water-conservation and irrigation schemes will take this v., hole question a lot further­ have created an imbalance in that the more indeed much further than any previous arid areas have been able to control produc­ Government ever contemplated. tion to an extent which, based on the common The disposal of surplus water, particularly concept of equal opportunity and equal in North Queensland, has been mainly by payment for effort, has placed the wet trop­ natural phenomena. The country has natural ical areas at a disadvantage. I hope that watercourses. For many generations in this amendment is only the beginning of a the development of the rural areas in the concerted and Government-supported move wetter parts of Queensland, we have relied to bring about an awareness of the neces­ entirely on the immense run off and natural sity for total water management by not only wastage of water. This has caused erosion conservation and reticulation but also drain­ and either the deterioration or destruction age. of structures, roads and the many other things Agricultural projects are now moving into that go with human progress and that have many marginal areas in Queensland. In the cost us a lot of money. Because of lack first place, settlers concentrated on areas of control in water disposal many buildings with good land and favourable conditions, and houses have been damaged. Floods and they set themselves up all over the ~,re another classic example of the lack of State where those conditions applied. Mar­ cl!·c;inage control. In referring to drainage, ginal areas were largely ignored until this we must also bear in mind the control decade, or perhaps a little earlier. Now, required at certain times during the mon­ parcicularly in this decade, it has been found soonal season of huge volumes of water. necessary for a number of reasons to move The Bill proposes to add drainage to the into marginal areas. What used to be catch­ works already eligible for financial assistance. ment areas for natural drainage are now being Many individuals have given sterling service cultivated. It is therefore necessary to imple­ in the development of the rural industry ment properly designed schemes to trans­ in Queensland and have spent a great deal form such areas into viable propositions. For of money on drainage which has eventually that reason, I am very pleased to see that been of benefit to other members of the the Committee supports the Bill, and I have public, who would have been morally much pleasure in adding my support. entitled to meet a good proportion of that expenditure on their own welfare. This Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (3.39 p.m.): aspect should be taken into consideration l acknowledge the wonderful contribution very seriously. made by my colleague the honourable mem­ North Queensland has many pioneering ber for Bundaberg, and I thank him person­ people. A terrific amount of work in this ally for reminding me of some statements field has been done by voluntary subscrip­ that I have made previously on this import­ tion. Some people have lived in a constant ant subject. The measure now being brought state of financial embarrassment because down is very desirable, and it is in keeping they have tried to improve their properties with the Minister's record over a number of and thus create a better environment for years. I know that he will continue to look their families, neighbours and people living vigilantly into the administration of this Act around them. and see that it is progressively amended. This Today, there is a greater awareness of attitude, of course, is completely different the benefit of having communal schemes. from the general approach of his colleagues I am pleased to see that this Parliament in the National Party, who, year in and year is giving more recognition to communal out, have given only lip-service in this water schemes and water boards, and more Assembly to the great rural producers of encouragement to people to enter into such this State. schemes if they can obtain the necessary Mr. ROW: I rise to a point of order. The financial assistance. remarks of the honourable member for Port What the honourable member for Bunda­ Curtis are offensive to me. I have served berg said about the movement in the sugar for many years in various organisations that industry is true. Although I do not want to have promoted the very things that he accused appear parochial by referring constantly to honourable members on this side of the the sugar industry, it is the largest agricul­ Chamber of neglecting. I object to the tural industry in the Queensland coastal inference, because I have done my share region. The problem that is arising is rather towards achieving those things. insidious and it is not accepted by all, but The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr it is very real. I refer to the difference Gunn): Order! There is no valid point of in profitability that is arising throughout the order. 21 602 Farm Water Supplies Assistance [10 APRIL 1975] Acts Amendment Bill

Mr. HANSON: One has to acknowledge The Minister, in his introductory remarks, the honourable member for Hinchinbrook, mentioned drainage, and it is really com­ who has taken a point of order so that his plementary to some of the other very fine constituents will know that he is at least in purposes of the Act. In some cases it was necessary to improve the standard of stock the Chamber. and domestic water supply installations on In sharp contrast to the silence of mem­ individual holdings, and modern methods of bers of the National Party, who should be water conservation and water harvesting were made possible by the Act. It is a interested in matters such as this, we have matter of great concern to the farmers of heard in this debate from the rural section the State to find that their properties are of the Liberal Party. What do we find, inadequately drained. For example, men­ Mr. Gunn, when matters affecting rural tion has been made already of the sugar policy are debated in this Parliament? We industry. There is no doubt that inefficient find great interest and submissions of great drainage can lead to the development of a depth, even though they may be somewhat big disease problem, and rot in sugar cane abstract, from some metropolitan members can cause individual farmers to suffer grave of the Liberal Party. The honourable mem­ economic loss. ber for Everton, who has no rural back­ I have levelled criticism at the honour­ ground, is very strongly to the fore in this able member for Hinchinbrook and others regard. He probably fears the day when who have come into the Chamber and Mr. Gerry J ones lines up again and tries advanced the the policies of the Queensland to bump him out of his seat. The honour­ Cane Growers' Council. The honourable able member for Everton knows nothing member knows as well as I do that for about agriculture and has no concern for many years the question of drainage has the farmers of this State. In the latter been raised continually at meetings of cane­ respect he is like his colleagues in the growers associations in many areas of the Country Party. State. He says he is on different committees. He is on committees all right! He I say quite emphatically that I have always certainly has been noted for his silence on supported the provisions of the Farm Water those committees. He has not strongly Supplies Assistance Act. I acknowledge advanced the needs of his constituents. that it was introduced by the late Mr. Alf Muller, the father of the present hon­ Mr. ROW: I rise to a point of order. ourable member for Fassifern. He was a I take offence at the honourable member's wonderful man, who gave great service to remarks. "Hansard" will show that I have primary industries throughout the State over strongly advanced these principles recently a long period. in this Chamber. The proposition that I have advanced The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. is that an ordinary farmer who seeks an Gunn): Order! Will the honourable member advance of $4,000 or $5,000 under the Farm withdraw his remarks? Water Supplies Assistance Act should be able to expend the money on the construct­ Mr. HANSON: If the honourable member ion of a dam that will be of some use on could produce that to me I would love to his property. When the property becomes look at it. Next election I will make a viable, then-and only then-should he personal visit to his area. Off the stump I attempt to meet his commitments to the will tell his constituents just how inadequate lending institution, the Agricultural Bank. he has been. I know that suggestion may be somewhat Mr. Frawley interjected. unorthodox, but it is in line with the think­ ing of the Australian Labor Party, the party Mr. HANSON: I might come to Redcliffe, to which I belong, and I suggest that it too, and give the honourable member and is quite correct. After all, although the other members of the N.C.C. a barrel as mineral deposits in Queensland have exer­ well. cised a great influence on the income of the State and, as there are many thousands Mr. ROW: I rise to a point of order. of tons of certain minerals in the ground, [ ask that the honourable member withdraw they may do so for years, farms will be 1Aose remarks about me. there for centuries to come. I have a con­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! siderable number of farmers in my electo­ I ask the honourable member for Port Curtis ate; I have earned their respect and I to withdraw them. receive their votes. The honourable mem­ ber for Everton and other pseudo-agricul­ Mr. HANSON: For the sake of peace, if turists now in this Assembly would find it the honourable member feels that I have very difficult to emulate my efforts in that been in any way offensive to him personally, field. In my opinion, it is right and proper I am only too happy to withdraw the that action of a radical nature should be remarks. I should not like to be personally taken to assist people seeking this form of offensive to any parliamentary colleague. But assistance under the Farm Water Supplies that will not deter me from going into Assistance Act. the Hinchinbrook electorate and speaking in Water Act [10 APRIL 19751 Amendment Bill 603 the cause of the endorsed Labor candidate, of Irrigation and Water Supply and spent in who will win next time. I will show how whole or in part to finance works also to inadequate the honourable member has been be transferred to the board. in advancing the cause of those particular The present section also contains a sub­ people. section 22 (2), which limits the rate of Mention has been made of the possibility interest payable to 6 per centum per annum, of erosion. For the preservation of the soil which is obviously not a practical rate in so that agricultural farms will remain viable the present economic climate. It is proposed units for centuries ahead, it is very neces­ to remove this limit. sary to have a satisfactory amending Bill Water boards must borrow funds, often such as the one being introduced by the well in advance of their being required for Minister. As usual, we in the Opposition, construction purposes. As a result of the being men of great perception, indicate that massive increase in interest rates, it is advis­ on this occasion, too, we will await the able for boards to have the power to invest printing of the Bill so that we can see if such temporarily idle or surplus funds at there is anything in it that is offensive to the best available rates, whether in the short­ us. At this initial stage the Bill receives term money market or elsewhere. A new our approbation. section 46I has been inserted to give boards Hon. N. T. E. HEWITT (Auburn­ this power. There are similar provisions in Minister for Water Resources) (3.48 p.m.), in the Local Government Act and the Harbours reply: I have very little to reply to. We Act. have heard a great dissertation from our Section 63 in effect gives users of domestic learned friend from Port Curtis about the and stock water a similar right to draw sugar industry. Probably he would be better water from sub-artesian wells, as applies occupied if he kept to his hotel and let to surface water under section 9, referred someone else look after the other side of to previously. Also for the same reason, things. it is proposed to amend section 63 to provide Motion (Mr. Hewitt) agreed to. a means of control of possible excessive use without depriving genuine cases of the right Resolution reported. lo sufficient underground water for domestic use. FIRST READING A most important purpose of this amend­ Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. ing Bill is to insert new provisions in the Hewitt, read a first time. Act to provide for the inspection and con­ tinued surveillance of large dams as a means WATER ACT AMENDMENT BILL of preventing failures of such dams and ensuring the safety of life and property. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Of more than 10,000 large dams existing (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) throughout the world, it is known that about Hon. N. T. E. HEWITT (Auburn­ one in 23 has suffered accident involving Minister for Water Resources) (3.50 p.m.): appreciable difficulty and about one in 70 I move- has failed, in some cases disastrously. "That a Bill be introduced to amend In recent years several countries, including the Water Act 1926-1973 in certain par­ Great Britain, U.S.A., and France, have ticulars." had new or updated legislation under con­ The amendments proposed include an amend­ sideration. ment of section 9 to control excessive use UNESCO, m conjunction with the Inter­ of water from streams and water-courses national Commission on Large Dams, pre­ under the guise of stock and domestic use, pared a document, "Recommendations Con­ while still preserving a landholder's riparian cerning Reservoirs", which sets out basic rights. principles for regulations concerning the safe Section 12 deals with licensing provisions design, construction and operation of dams generally. Subsection (3) of that section pre­ and reservoirs. sently provides that an owner or occupier Members of the Australian National Com­ of land riparian to a water-course and situ­ mittee on Large Dams (ANCOLD), which is ated within 8 kilometres of the applicant for affiliated with the international commission, a licence has a right to object. A point have concluded that under existing legisla­ has been raised casting a doubt on the tion in all States the community is not method of interpreting this distance. The adequately protected against possible dam amendment seeks both to clarify the inter­ failures. pretation of the distance and to increase the ANCOLD prepared a report in 1972 on distance to 24 kilometres downstream, but the safety and surveillance of dams. In to retain the distance of 8 kilometres up­ 1973 the Premier advised the chairman of stream. ANCOLD of the Government's support for It is proposed to amend section 22 to the proposals and advised that consideration enable a water board to accept, legally, the would be given to implementing necessary assignment of the liability of a debenture legislation to set up a control authority for loan, previously raised by the Commissioner dams in Queensland. 604 Water Act [10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill

The principal recommendations of the Section 15, which provides a penalty for ANCOLD report are as follows:- unauthorised alterations to a licensed work (a) That a single control authority in or contravention of any condition of a each State should be responsible for ensur­ licence, is being amended to provide a maxi­ ing the implementation of legislation and mum penalty commensurate with the higher regulations for the design, construction, values of referable dams. operation and maintenance of all dams A new part VHI of the Act is being and reservoirs defined as "referable" dams. inserted and comprises new sections 64 to 69, (b) That all such dams and reservoirs all dealing specifically with referable dams. should be designed, constructed, operated Section 64 interprets dimensions and other and maintained under the supervision of terms used. suitably qualified and experienced Section 65 lists the requirements of the engineers. commissioner in regard to referable dams. (c) That the control authority should be Section 66 empowers the commissioner to empowered to require the submission of appoint an advisory committee to assist in sufficient data, drawings and reports to the efficient discharge of his functions in this enable it to make decisions on the adequacy respect. Section 67 deals with the functions of such dams and reservoirs. of the advisory committee. (d) That an advisory committee should Section 68 enables the commissioner to be established to advise the control exempt the owner of a referable dam from authority in technical and administrative all or any of the provisions of the Act, for matters. such period and under such conditions as (e) That the control authority should be he decides. empowered to delegate such of its functions Section 69 exempts the commissioner from as deemed fit in each case to suitably liability by reason of total or partial failure qualified organisations subject to adequate or collapse of a dam in certain circum­ information and reports being required to stances. enable over-all control to be maintained. The proposed legislation in respect of The Commissioner of Irrigation and Water referable dams has been discussed with Supply is the logical authority to administer departments concerned and general agree­ the legislation providing for these controls ment has been reached. and requirements. In this Bill use is made of his powers under the Water Act, and cer­ I commend the Bill to the Committee. tain amendments are made to existing pro­ visions so that these are adequate to cover Mr. .JENSEN (Bundaberg) (3.59 p.m.): We supervision and control of dams. have no intention of opposing the Bill. As Section 3 of the Act is amended to include the Minister referred to many sections that a new definition of "Owner", and a definition are to be amended and new ones to be of "referable dam" is added. inserted, we will have to look closely at the legislation before saying very much about it. Section 4 vests natural water in the Crown. Unlike Government members, Opposition It authorises the commissioner to take such members have not had copies of the Bill. measures as thought fit for the conservation Government members at least know some­ and supply of such water. A new section 4A thing about it, but we do not. has been inserted, giving to the commissioner control of the design, construction, alteration It appears from the Minister's outline that repair, operation, maintenance, abandonment the legislation is quite sound as it relates to and removal of referable dams. the construction and control of dams which, Section 11, which deals with licences I believe, should have been controlled vears granted to riparian owners to divert water ago. I have known people to construct dams and construct works, is being amended to across rivers which could cause serious provide for the licensing of referable dams. damage to farms lower down in times of Section IIA, which gives a right to non­ flood. As outlined by the Minister, the riparian landholders to obtain a licence to Commissioner of Irrigation and Water Supply divert water, is also being amended to con­ has now power under the Act to have dams form to the altered form of section 11. A removed. We cannot allow farmers to con­ new section llC is inserted to provide that a struct dams just anywhere, nor can we person shall not build, aHer, repair, operate, allow dams to be constructed where they remove or abandon a referable dam save can flood a town or city. The construction u~der the authority of, and in compliance of any dam or reservoir should be subject to with, the terms and conditions of a licence stringent conditions. The Minister has men­ issued by the commissioner. tioned the collapse of dams. Recently we have seen newsreels of the collapse of a ~ection 12: which deals with licence appli­ large darn in America. The collapse of any catwns and nghts of appeal, is being amended darn will cause destruction. When the darns to enable its use also in connection with are large, the destruction to small cities or referable dams. It also excludes right of towns will be serious. appeal by an owner against a decision of the commissioner which concerns the safety of a I remember a couple of years ago a com­ referable dam or the protection of life and plaint about a big landowner in North property in connection with a referable dam. Queensland putting in his own dam without Water Act [10 APRIL 1975) Amendment Bill 605 asking for approval. It has been said that Mr. GUNN: I am sure the honourable the dam is dangerous. I do not know whether member for Wolston has not swallowed that that is true or not. one. I have more respect for him and his judgment than to think that. Mr. Lindsay: Name him. This legislation will rectify a situation Mr. JENSEN: I can't think of his name. that over the years has got out of hand. He was a developer up there and tied up We talk about riparian rights. I am not with big mining companies. against a person being given riparian rights, but I think most honourable members will Mr. Lindsay: Your speech is full of agree that these have been exploited over innuendoes. the years. I remember one farmer who was granted a licence to irrigate 4 acres of Mr. JENSEN: I would name him if I vegetables. That was the greatest rort of knew his name. You give us his name. all time. He had a 4 in. centrifugal pump Mr. Frawley: What about the Lord Mayor? and anybody associated with irrigation knows Shouldn't he be in control of the Somerset that it will deliver up to 16,000 gallons of Dam? water an hour. It is easy to imagine what was happening. He was irrigating his Mr. JENSEN: Of course he should be in vegetables and, as well, flooding about 10 control. There should be control on any dam. acres of surrounding land. You get up and tell us where the Lord Most of the smaller creeks, such as Laidley Mayor should be controlling it. You tell Creek and Lockyer Creek, run well at the top us what you are going to do about controlling end but, with farmers such as the one I men­ it. I do not want the honourable member tioned absolutely wasting the water, people to interject. He should get up and tell in the lower reaches, who depend on water us where the Lord Mayor is wrong. for their stock, got none. I am pleased Mr. Frawley: I told you. that this problem is rectified under the Bill. I can remember an inspector visiting Mr. JENSEN: I know you told us about another person who was exploiting this par­ where-- ticular provision of the Act. He was allowed The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. to irrigate 4 acres of vegetables. The farmer Row): Order! Honourable members will told the inspector, "I only have this 4 in. address their remarks to the Chair. pump and I cannot afford a 2 in. pump." The inspector, being very easy-going, said, Mr. JENSEN: I know that the honourable "When that one wears out you can buy a member told us that the land was rateable. 2 in. pump." Coming from an irrigation I agree with him. I think it is a scandal area, you would know, Mr. Row, that these for people to be paying rates on land that pumps never wear out. All that is required is under water, but that has nothing to do is another spindle and the pump is practically with this. new. This went on for years and years; the irrigation inspector knew there was no The legislation that the Minister has intro­ way he could get out of it. We have duced is to prevent people from constructing waited a long time to have that situation dams without authority and control. I hope rectified. Even though the hour is late, the department will have the authority to this is nevertheless a step in the right direc­ inspect every dam or reservoir in Queens­ tion. Strangely enough, people have little land. People should be informed, if their respect for their neighbours. This was one dam is not up to specification, that it should area that was being exploited to the limit. be altered or demolished. That is our main I commend the provision concerning the point. When we see the Bill we will be safety of dams. We read and see films looking to see that the Commissioner has of what has happened overseas and hope it the authority to ensure that a dam con­ will never happen here. However, we must structed without his authority reaches the accept that it is likely to happen. In my prescribed specifications or else is demolished. area, I am greatly interested in the Wivenhoe The Minister said the Bill contains many Dam which will be built in the 1980's. new sections as well as many amendments Mr. Hartwig interjected. to existing sections. Until we study its ramifications, we cannot say much. Mr. GUNN: As the honourable member for Callide said, it will cover quite a lot Mr. GUNN (Somerset) (4.4 p.m.): As of excellent country. l agree with him" my electorate covers the watersheds of the The dam will serve a purpose other than Brisbane and Lockyer Valleys, where a lot the watering of lawns in Brisbane. It will of water is stored for irrigation purposes, serve industry, and this is an area of great I welcome the legislation. It is long over­ industrialisation. due. As you will know, Mr. Row, I have We must consider flood mitigation. The received many complaints about the Somer­ major flood in Brisbane last year caused set Dam, for obvious reasons, although I great devastation. I have no engineering will not elaborate on them now. ability, but if Wivenhoe Dam-and this Mr. Marginson interjected. applies to Somerset Dam as well-is kept at 606 Water Act [10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill a reasonable level so that it can take a rush 1966, but the farmers and graziers upstream of water, it will be an excellent means of still do not know to what height the dam ~ood mitigation. Much depends on how it wall will rise, and naturally they have IS managed. Somerset Dam was not managed suffered great anxiety for a long time. I have well at the time of the Brisbane flood. led deputations to Ministers, including one It was almost full before the 20 ins. of rain to Mr. Rae when he was administering the fell on the headwaters near Kilcoy. As a Local Government Department, but we have flood-mitigation dam its value then was prac­ repeatedly been unable to obtain the answers. tically negative. Management has a good deal One would think that one was dealing with to do with this. some sort of secret society. Answers cannot . I do not wish to take up any further be obtained by members of Parliament; nor time of the Committee. I commend the can they be obtained by aldermen and others proposal and I reserve further comments who are directly responsible for this work. till the second-reading stage when I will I think that anyone who approached the have read the Bill. newly created water board would also run up against a stone wall of silence. Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (4.9 p.m.): I do not wish to take up much of the time The people are entitled to this information. of the Committee, but I am certain that The dam will be the basis of their future Government members learn a little from water supply. Some say that it will be the submissions made by Opposition mem­ up to 170 ft. high; others say that it will bers. The Bill contains some desirable be 130 ft. God knows how high it will features. One is that there will be greater be! The eventual flooding that will take stringency in the licensing provisions of the place upstream will cover properties, and legislation, and, as honourable members people do not know where the waterline have just intimated, this is a very sane will be. The dam is also interfering with course to pursue. There has been blatant road construction in the area and with the dishonesty, and many rackets and rorts very quality of life, because small townships have been worked over a long period in do not bow whether they will be flooded. connection with many rivers and streams. The lime mine at Taragoola, for instance, Unfortunately, many people have not acted could be flooded. All these side issues come gene:ously towards their neighbours, and their into the matter. It is about time that some avance has caused concern and anxiety. I common sense was brought to bear on the hope that the Bill will lead to a greater whole issue. It has gone on for too long. degree. o~ common sense, and to a greater r hope that this legislation will liven someone appreciatwn by members of the Minister's up so that we can get some form of sanity. d~partment of their role in seeing that the I am pleased to see that provision is Will of the Legislature is carried out rather being made under section 22 relative to than acting harshly as policemen. investments in the short-term money market. For a long time the Government has Years ago, as chairman of a harbour un~ortu~ately been noted for the way in authority, I, in company with my colleagues, which It has starved the Irrigation and was responsible for the first time in Queens­ Water Supply Commission of funds with land for having surplus Government funds v;:hich to carry out its charter. Very few and debenture funds that were allocated to nvers . and streams have the gauges and us invested in the short-term money market. other mstruments necessary to provide effec­ Not long afterwards the Treasury Department tive information over the years for the took a punt and made similar investments. benefit of the public generally. At times Since then, of course, it has amassed an a ~haotic situation has developed whe~ annual income of considerable proportions engmeers of the Local Government Depart­ as a result of its investments in the short-term ment have become involved in the construc­ money market. It is a pity that it is not tion of dams that should be the responsibility done by other Government and semi-govern­ of. t!Je Irrigation and Water Supply Com­ ment departments over the length and breadth missiOn. Naturally enough, there is confusion of the State, because it allows funds to be when there are interdepartmental jealousies conserved and increased with minimal risk. when engine.ers. from different department~ I believe that the provision is very desirable. advance their Ideas on dam construction Having heard the Minister's introductory and when the Local Government Department remarks, I agree with my colleague the approaches town councils and tells them honourable member for Bundaberg that the stories about future water storage and use. Opposition can give a form of affirmation If, as the Minister intimated, the Bill provides to the proposed Bill. However, I sound a for an authority on dam construction that note of warning. The Minister's opening will s~ttle _once and for all any arguments remarks indicate that the legislation is and Side Issues, that provision alone will voluminous and makes a considerable number make it a very important piece of legislation of amendments to the Act. These amend­ indeed. ments, of course, will require careful scrutiny. In the Gladstone area, the construction of The Treasurer is not here at the moment. the A woonga Dam on the Boyne River has I suppose he backed Combo in the Weetwood. produced a period of great anxiety. Its If he had anything to do with the legislation construction was started in about 1965 or -and I hope he reads my remarks-he Water Act [10 APRIL 1975) Amendment Bill 607 would make a comment such as, "This is take no responsibility for any injury that a simple piece of legislation." Unfortunately, is caused. It is very wrong that these dams much to the sorrow of the State, honourable should be allowed to cause injury and members have repeatedly seen how simple economic hardship. some of the Government's legislation is. It is about time the Act was brought I might refer to the Harbours Act of 1967 before the notice of the department. It is -I think that is the correct year-which about time there was liaison between Gov­ the Treasurer said was a simple piece of ernment departments instead of the present legislation. One could write chapters about ministerial jealousy. What could we expect that Act; in fact, one could fill a book. other than ministerial jealousy when the two One thing is certain: other members of political factions are so violently opposed the Opposition and I are shown in the to one another? We hear whisperings in records as being opposed to that amendment the corridors. There are leaks to the Press and we have been proved correct. I say to and stabs in the back. Incidentally, where the Minister who succeeded the Treasurer are the Liberals today? They are up in as Minister in charge of harbours that he Townsville venting their hate against the did a very fine job and did not stoop to Australian Labor Party. the snide operations that we saw from the Treasurer. The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN: Order! I ask the honourable member to stick to Because of the tidal influence in many the provisions of the Bill. streams in Queensland that will come within the ambit of the proposed Bill, it will affect Honourable Members interjected. the Harbours Act, the Local Government The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN: Order! Act and others. I should like the honourable member to The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. stick to the provisions of the Bill. I also Row): Order! I hope the honourable member remind other honourable members that I am will not go too far out to sea in this not going to allow the debate to develop debate. into a debacle of interjections on matters not related to the Bill. Mr. HANSON: No, Mr. Row. The tide is coming right in. Mr. HANSON: I regret it if I became There is a differential, of course, in regard upset. I am very emotional about the way to the Awoonga Dam and a number of the ship of State is being sailed at the other dams because of tidal influence, and present time. an amendment to the Water Act was brought The Railway Department atrociously down in this Chamber some time ago giving inflicts itself on the people of the State by a lead to differential and stating where the doing something that will eventually flood authority of the Harbour Board ended and them out of their homes. I hope that the where the Irrigation and Water Supply Com­ safety provisions of the Bill will be enforced mission took over. That was very important, and that the department will be told in no because in the Boyne River, as in many uncertain terms just where it gets off. I other rivers, are gravel beds that are very can smell the Co-ordinator General's Depart­ necessary to building operations throughout ment throughout the measure. I sincerely the State. The removal of gravel is a matter hope that together the two departments will of serious concern to future water users. co-ordinate Government activities so that we People who remove it indiscriminately can will get some unanimity on the committees damage the banks of the river and affect that will be created. their use as dam sites, and so on. One day The Bill has considerable merit. It I will write a long story about issues that involves many side issues. A number of caused great concern many years ago and amendments have emanated from individual on which some people might have thought members of the Government caucus. I I was somewhat blind. heartily congratulate some of them because I am very disappointed about the negligence they have the stomach to stand up and say shown by one Government department in what they think. Others of course remai_n failing to observe the provisions of the silent while they wait hopefully for their Act. One hears a great deal about dam next endorsement. They are robot members construction. To improve its operations in their electorates and should be ashamed between Gladstone and Rockhampton and of themselves. Their electors will be told provide greater engine power for trains about this at the next election. carrying coal from Blackwater to Gladstone, I am very sorry that the Liberal Party the Railway Department has upgraded the representation in the Chamber today is so railway line. In several small communities poor. I should have liked Liberal members it has removed old bridges that were sadly to make a contribution to this important in need of repair. The engineers constructed debate. They have constantlY belly-ached box culverts and thus created dams which about the Brisbane River, Somerset Dam and will flood the towns of Bajool, Marmor and the proposed Wivenhoe Dam. They have Mt. Larcom. As a result untold injury will talked about Clem Jones's sins of omission be caused to people along the length of and commission. But Liberal members are the line. The department says that it will singularly silent this afternoon. Where are 608 Water Act [10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill they? They are up in Townsville at their Next the Minister referred to the licens­ meeting, not here in the Legislative Assembly ing of underground water supplies. Through­ Chamber. As a political party we hold out Queensland and particularly on the Darl­ our convention when Parliament is in recess ing Downs many persons are pumping large or during a week when it is not sitting. They volumes of water from underground sources should do the same, and thus give service that are beyond the capacity of nature to to the people. replenish. Many years ago, when approval was given readily for the sinking of bores Some of the proposals are very desirable or the construction of wells, no major prob­ and I am happy to support them. At the lem arose. Pumping equipment was then of second-reading stage we will have much more such a nature as to limit the volume of to say. water pumped from underground sources. Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (4.25 p.m.): I suggest that it was not until the develop­ After that dissertation it is very difficult ment of deep bore-hole pumps and similar for me to believe that we are living in the equipment that the volume of water pumped driest continent in the world. According to from underground sources has become exces­ the honourable member for Port Curtis, sive. Some action must be taken in the wherever a small bank is raised there is a near future to rectify this situation. It is tremendous danger of thousands of people the considered opinion of many persons who being drowned during the first downpour. have the capacity to make such an assess­ I regard the submissions that have been ment that, unless action is taken in the made so far as being completely wide of near future, our underground water reserves, the mark, and I am a little disappointed for which have been built up over hundreds and that reason. possibly thousands of years, will be pumped dry. In an attempt to prevent this the Bill Owing to the development that has occur­ provides that future underground water sup­ red in Queensland, and, for that matter, plies may be licensed and controlled. throughout Australia, it is necessary from time to time to make certain amendments I am concerned, however, at the prospect to various Acts of Parliament. In this of departmental officers not exercising their instance amendments are being made to the discretion when applications are made to Water Act 1926-1973. them to use underground water. The Minister It is my intention to introduce my sub­ indicated very clearly that no restriction jects in the order in which they were referred would be imposed on dams used for domes­ to by the Minister. He spoke firstly on tic or livestock purposes. When people the development that has occurred in Queens­ apply for a permit to sink or develop a land as well as on the necessity to introduce bore, I hope that they will not be questioned this measure. extensively or delayed unduly. The south-eastern corner of the State, The honourable member for Port Curtis particularly the areas represented by my seemed to be very concerned about the pos­ colleague the honourable member for Somer­ sibility of thousands of people drowning. I set and me, has been subject to large­ think he is romancing when he talks in that scale subdivisional development, as a result way about referable dams, but I know that of which a number of properties adjacent he does not know the contents of the Bill. to watercourses have been reduced in area After long and careful consideration as a to five acres. This development has thrown member of the Minister's committee, I a tremendous load on the natural water openly admit that I agreed reluctantly to resources, particularly the smaller streams, some of the provisions in the Bil.J. That is in these localities. what moti\ates me today in making r:ny speech. Initially those persons who occupied small areas of land had the right to consume 3 We believe that, in Australia, it is not acre-feet of water each year, and this right desirable to impose difficult conditions on was given not to the property but to the people who wish to construct dams, but we individual. Many of those small areas have do understand that it is necessary to impose been subdivided, in some instances, into some meaSUire of control. Reports ajre 20 allotments. The result is that, instead filtering through about a large number of of one person having the right to consume dams fracturing in the wet season. On my that quantity of water, each of 20 land­ understanding of the Bill, if dams are con­ holders has the right to consume it annually. structed in an area where they may endanger Water consumption of this magnitude is life or property, they become referable if beyond the capacity of the streams. Fortun­ they are over a certain capacity. If they are ately, the Minister, in his wisdom, has decided in isolated areas of Queensland where there to reduce the level of consumption of water. is no possible chance of damage to life or The honourable member for Port Curtis property should they fracture in the wet apparently is not aware of what the reduced season-and that, naturally, is the only time quantity will be, but it is not my intention this damage is likely to occur-it will not be at this stage to tell him. I have no doubt necessary to go into any great detail with that after the Bill is printed the Minister departmental officers to obtain authority to will indicate what it is. proceed with construction. In localities where Water Act (10 APRIL 1975) Amendment Bill 609 there is definite danger it is essential that safety of those referable dams presently in construction be supervised by people with the existence. I believe this to be a very worth­ necessary capacity. while piece of legislation and one that should When discussing the merits and demerits of be welcomed by the Committee. this measure, many G

regard. We have gone to a great deal for fruit and vegetables for a person's own of trouble to see that the power to exempt use is reasonable, and I do not think that any i:; provided for. members will object to it. Some eyebrows might be raised at the With today's increased use of irrigation right-of-appeal provisions which the Minister and the greater demands being made on outlined in his introduction. The right of natural water resources, which are quite appeal on referable dams would not be rele­ finite, it is necessary to restrict the exploita­ yant to this because the right of appeal tion of the run-off, particularly from small IS to the Land Court. When an application streams. Today, they can very easily be is made to construct an ordinary dam, persons overcommitted, and we are forced to give who might be affected have the right of the commissioner extra powers to restrict appeal to the Land Court against the deci­ landholders in their use of water. The output sion of the Commissioner of Irrigation and of modern pumps is so much greater than Water Supply. We do not believe that an those designed say, 10 years ago, that the appeal to the Land Court on public safety situation has been of increasing concern. provisions would be desirable. I do not feel The Bill also validates certain actions in that the Land Court would be a court of the transfer of debentures from the Com­ competent jurisdiction to decide whether an missioner of Irrigation and Water Supply order made by the commissioner is necessary acting as a board, as he is empowered to do or not. Those provisions have been excluded under the Act. At a later date in construc­ from orders on referable dams. I think it is tion, he can transfer such commitment to right and proper that this proposal be water boards throughout Queensland, and the included. It is the major matter before the Bill provides for that to be done with greater Committee. ease than, on legal advice, can be done at the present time. "Yhile_ this ~et is being amended, the oppor­ tumty IS bemg taken to consider other The Bill also provides further rights of matters. The opportunity has been taken objection to landholders, and it extends the to restrict the as-of-use right of landholders area downstream from five to 15 miles. I to apply under section 63 of the Act for think that this is valid in the light of my permission to put down a sub-artesian bore previous statements about smaller streams, for domestic use. A person has only to in particular, becoming more and more over­ make application and it will be granted. How­ committed. There are a couple of streams ever, in several areas the aquifers are becom­ that are of special concern. ing fully committed. When an aquifer is The Bill provides for the setting up of a overcommitted, there can be undesirable dam-surveillance authority. It is of over­ results. There could be an intrusion of salt riding importance, and I believe that it will water, and the position of other landholders be a very necessary public authority in this in the area could be prejudiced. It is State. It will provide the commissioner with now proposed that, in areas that are declared powers that will become more and more by the Governor in Council, application will necessary, particularly in South-east Queens­ have to be made to the commission for land. permiSSIOn, and that permission can be Mr. HARTWIG (Callide) (4.50 p.m.): In refused. I think it is proper that in such offering my comments on the Bill, let me problem areas this power be given to the say first, as a member of this Assembly commissioner under the Act. and a member of the Government, what a We have taken the opportunity also to wonderful job the Minister and his depart­ restrict the rights of certain riparian land­ ment have done in the creation of water holders who, under section 9 of the Act, supplies and in the conservation of water may, as of right, apply to the Commissioner in large dams throughout Queensland. Indeed, of Irrigation and Water Supply for the right it was not until a National-Liberal Govern­ to pump a certain amount of water. Under ment came to power that any positive steps the Act at present, that amount is defined as were taken to conserve water in this great enough to irrigate three acres of fruit and State. Dams such as the Wumma Dam vegetables for a person's own use but not near Abercorn, the Fairbairn Dam at Emer­ for sale. This right has, in one or two cases, ald, the Glebe Weir at Theodore, the Mon­ been abused. There has been an application duran Dam, the Callide Dam, the Awoonga by riparian landholders engaged in a lot­ Dam, and, in the pipeline, the Cania Dam, feeding enterprise, and this could lead to a come to mind. These are all in Central situation in which a licence would be given Queensland, and the people in that area as of right for the consumption of a quantity are grateful to the Minister and the Govern­ of water sufficient to irrigate 30 acres the ment for providing assured water supplies, year round. Obviously the "as of right" thus affording relief to that somewhat dry provisions have to be restricted in some way part of Queensland. when one considers what is happening in Over the years, of course, droughts have small subdivisions in many areas right along lasted longer than good seasons. On my the coastline. In the area of the honourable property I had surface water on one front­ member for Somerset is the specific case that age, and I saw water-holes that had never is causing c~m~ern at present. In this day and before gone dry emptied by excessive pump.. age, a restnctwn to three-quarters of an acre ing of the watercourse upstream from my Water Act [10 APRIL 1975) Amendment Bill 611 property. When I first went there in 1937, about that aspect of it now. I should hate there were water-holes the best part of a to think that, after spending $35,000,000-odd mile long and 20 ft. deep. Within 10 on the Fairbaim Dam, it might be suggested years I saw the bottom of those water­ that we had not taken advantage of the best holes, and they became a threat to weak engineering brains or that it had not been cattle. That was caused by over-pumping of constructed under the best supervision in the the watercourse by people who did not State. I should like to know why it is respect the requirements of others along the stipulated that the design and everything else creek. must be under the strict supervision of quali­ Apart from controlling excessive use, the fied engineers. Every dam that has been Bill also extends the distance within which built in Queensland over the last few years people may object. I wonder why the looks pretty good to me. Minister has stuck to a distance of 8 kilo­ I should like to comment on the proposed metres upsteam and increased to 24 kilo­ Wivenhoe Dam. Water storage is a won­ metres the distance downstream within which derful thing and it has helped Queensland people may object. My knowledge and greatly, but it riles me when I see some of experience show me that it is the people the best land in the State being covered by upstream of a particular water supply who dam waters. I refer particularly to the Bris­ do the damage. If they cut off the under­ bane River country. It it some of the best ground water supply, the creek soon goes cattle country in the State. dry. I should like to see the position 1 have been talking about qualified reversed. I think that the distance should be engineers designing dams. I have nothing 24 kilometres upstream and 8 kilometres against their designing a dam, but it is the downstream. location of the dam that concerns me. When The State Government, through the Min­ I see a dam located in an area where the ister, has devised various water schemes to water will cover some of the best fattening serve properties throughout the State in areas country in the State-land that will fatten a in which it has not been possible to obtain bullock to the acre-I become greatly con­ either underground or surface water. In cerned. We have the engineers and tech­ my electorate, for example, there is the nicians to build good dams. We saw that Grevillea water scheme that serves the Lawgi at Wuruma and Fairbairn-two magnificent Plateau. The people in that area would not structures that impound a tremendous amount be in business today if the Government had of water. The Fairbairn Dam is the greatest not created water boards. I am pleased to ~vater conservation dam in Queensland, stor­ see that the 6 per cent interest payable on mg over 1,000,000 acre-feet of water. At water-board loans has been reduced. The this time we are importing into Australia boards often have to borrow money, and if more canned and frozen vegetables than they have a surplus at any time they will be ever before. It is a sad state of affairs. We able to invest the money at the best available spend millions of dollars on a facility to con­ rate of interest. serve water for ir~igation purposes, but some­ where along the lme we seem to break down. I commend the provision for a means of Whether it is because we do not have the control of possible excessive use of water, know-how or do not reward our producers without depriving genuine cases of the right sufficiently to induce them to produce food, to sufficient underground water for domestic I do not know. The fact remains that Aus­ use. It is very important that that water tralia is being flooded with such imports. In be available. Many people depend on water­ fact, today the South Australian Premier (Mr. courses for their stock. We should not pre­ Dunstan) objected to the importation of vent people from using water from creeks thousands of tons of potatoes into his State. for their stock. They might need to pump and reticulate it to back paddocks up to 2 or The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. 3 miles from the watercourse. The size of Row): Order! The level of conversation in the pumps can be regulated. I notice that the Chamber is continually rising. I ask the Bill does not deprive stockowners of the honourable members to allow the member use of the water for that purpose. for Callide to be heard in silence. I notice that a single control authority in Mr. HARTWIG: Thank you, Mr. Row. each State is responsible for the implemen­ Recently I was advised that in the seven­ tation of legislation and regulations for the month period from July 1973 to January design, construction, operation and main­ 1974 Australia imported 5,000,000 kilo­ tenance of all dams and reserves defined as grams of canned and frozen vegetables, referable dams. It is rather surprising to and that in the same period 12 months later, me that at this stage we should be talking that is, from July 1974 to January 1975, the about the design of engineers. I have been imports rose to 21,000,000 kilograms. This associated with the construction of dams in represents an increase of 16,000,000 kilo­ my area. I was always of the opinion that grams. unless dams were approved by the Depart­ Perhaps the cause of all this is that the ment of Irrigation and Water Supply and Australian Government's policies have forced constructed under supervision, they would farmers off their properties. The primary not be allowed to be built. I cannot quite producers have to contend not only with follow why we should have to do something inflation and high costs but also with the 612 Water Act [10 APRIL 1975} Amendment Bill loss of income tax concessions, and so on. Mr. FRAWLEY (Murrumba) (5.6 p.m.): They are given no incentive whatever to I enter the debate only to give the honourable produce. The tragedy of it all is that, instead member for Bundaberg information about of staying on the land, the people are leaving Somerset Dam. He challenged me to make it. a statement about it and I intend to do so. Mr. Frawley: The Commonwealth Gov­ Mr. Jensen interjected. ernment is trying to break the farmers. Mr. FRAWLEY: This debate allows us to Mr. HARTWIG: It has certainly broken range far and wide, from Somerset Dam, the spirit of many farmers. to Kilcoy, to Woodford and back to the A fact that causes grave concern is that North Pine Dam, and I intend to do that. the majority of landholders are over the age of 50 years. It is bad enough when parents This measure is not before time. In fact leave the land; it is worse when their child­ greater control of dams has been needed ren go with them. Farmers cannot be created in Queensland for many years. A perfect overnight. example of the need for control was found in the actions of the Lord Mayor in January An Opposition Member: I have never seen 197 4, when he ordered the flood-gates closed you looking so well. on Somerset Dam and flooded Kilcoy-he cut Kilcoy off-and towns 20 miles away, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! as far back as Woodford. The conversation in the Chamber is far too loud. Mr. Alison: He's a crook.

Mr. HARTWIG! A man can become a Mr. FRAWLEY: Of course he is. I have doctor after five years of study at medical said that on more than one occasion. school; a farmer is made only after a life­ time of experience. A man cannot be taken When Somerset Dam was completed, it off Queen Street, put on a block of land, and was decided that the water-storage level be expected to make a success of it. would be 315 ft. above sea level and it was built mainly as a flood-mitigation An Opposition Member: Are you a Queen measure. One-quarter of the storage capacity Street farmer? was reserved for water storage and three­ Mr. HARTWIG: Opposition members quarters was to be available for flood would not know. mitigation. In 1965, when the Brisbane City Council proposed to raise the level of the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! dam by 10 ft. (to 325 ft. above sea level), I trust that the interjections will be reason­ a group of farmers in Woodford, Kilcoy able and will be directed through the Chair. and Neurum issued a writ on the Brisbane City Council to make it raise the level Mr. HARTWIG: Thank you again, Mr. of bridges in the area because they knew Row. As I say, it takes a lifetime of know­ that some day they would be flooded by ledge to become a farmer. \Ve must ensure the waters of Somerset Dam backing up. that we have the farmers who can use the On 29 January 1974 all their fears were water provided by the Fairbairn Dam and realised. Thanks to the decision of the Lord other irrigation projects to produce the Mayor to close the flood-gates, a great deal goods. of inconvenience was caused to the people The Minister has been very active in my of Kilcoy, Woodford and Neurum. We are electorate. He is about to implement a reti­ all aware of the disastrous flooding in culation scheme, under Stage li of the Brisbane in January-February 1974. We know Callide Dam project, to Grevillea Creek. In that heavy financial losses were suffered by fact I saw the pipes last Sunday. the people. We are also aware of the prompt, unstinting aid given to the people Honourable Members interjected. by the Government. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Opposition Members interjected. Honourable members will cease cross-firing in the Chamber. Mr. FRAWLEY: I am also aware that, during the flood, when peopk were trying Mr. HARTWIG: We look forward to the to find the honourable member for Archerfield placing on the Callide Dam of flood-gates they could not do so because he had that will double its capacity. A tremendous crawled into a big funk-hole that he dug. amount of irrigation is carried out in the The Minister for Community and Welfare Callide Valley. A large volume of water is Services had to look after his electorate. pumped from underground sources and the Department of Irrigation and Water Supply Mr. Marginson: You have said that six has to keep an eye on the underground water times. levels. Good seasons have raised the water level considerably. I trust that before the Mr. FRAWLEY: I will say it a further next drought occurs in the Callide Valley the ~ix times. In the next election I may even reticulation scheme from the Callide Dam go to Archerfield to campaign and tell the will be implemented. people there the truth. Water Act [10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill 613

On Friday, 25 January 1974, the level Mr. FRAWLEY: No I haven't. I don't of the water in Somerset Dam rose rapidly read Trades Hall briefs as some members to 340 ft. It was supposed to be held at opposite do, like parrots. 325 ft., but the Lord Mayor kept it at 340 ft. I do not know why he did that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. unless it was to give some of the people Row): Order! The member will address the in Brisbane the right to use a water sprinkler. Chair. The water level then rose to 350 ft. The Mr. FRAWLEY: I prepare my own. The accepted flood level was supposed to be honourable member is a Trades Hall parrot 343 ft. The back-up water from the dam who reads his brief every day. Some days caused flooding at a place known as Mary­ they give him the wrong brief in the smokes Creek. For the benefit of members shuffle. Honourable members will notice of the Opposition, Marysmokes Creek is on the way he stumbles over the words. the border between the electorates of Mur­ rumba and Somerset. It is on the D'Aguilar The level of the Somerset Dam reached Highway between Woodford and Kilcoy. 350 ft. above sea level though it was recog­ When I refer to Marysmokes Creek honour­ nised that it should have been kept at 343 able members opposite will know exactly ft. If the water had been kept at a reas­ where it is. onable level of 340 to 343 ft.-the Mary­ smokes Creek bridge is 336 ft. above sea Mr. Marginson interjected. level-the water would have receded fairly quickly. Mr. FRAWLEY: The honourable member for Wolston would not even know where Mr. K. J. Hooper: I'll give you an inter­ it is. jection. How is your water level? The town of Kilcoy was isolated when Mr. FRAWLEY: Judging by the honour­ the water level rose 14 ft. above the bridge able member's stomach, my water level is a at Mary~mokes Creek. lot lower than his. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Had the Somerset Dam been kept at 336 Row): Order! There is far too much frivolity ft. above sea level, the water would have on my left. cleared from Marysmokes Creek bridge much more quickly and the enormous dam­ Mr. FRAWLEY: I thank you, Mr. Row. age suffered by the D'Aguilar Highway [ place myself under your protection against would not have occurred. some of the unnecessary interjections by The Water Act should give more control Opposition members. over not only future dams and small dams This was a serious situation. Farmers lost but also some of the big ones in our area. thousaE.ds of gallons of milk simply because l suggest that the water level at Somerset the Lord Mayor, a member of the Australian Dam should be kept to the acceptable level Labor Party, a man who is supposed to of 325 ft. above sea level at all times so stand for the working man, caused a great that it can be used for its rightful purpose deal of hardship because he did not give of flood mitigation. a hoot for the farmers. And why would he? Mr. Gunn: There would be enough water He would not get a vote out there. If he for Brisbane. went to Dayboro, they would string him from the highest tree. Mr. FRAWLEY: Of course there would. There would be enough water for Brisbane Mr. Gunn interjected. and Ipswich for many years. Mr. FRAWLEY: Of course they don't The control of the water in the Somer­ get a vote. set Dam and the North Pine Dam should be taken from the Brisbane City Council. If Mr. Jensen interjected. my colleague the honourable member for Mr. FRAWLEY: What a lot of rubbish. Pine Rivers were here, he would corrobor­ ate that statement. I have the exact figures here. 29,930 Mr. Jensen: He is a better speaker than gallons of milk, worth $12,000 to the you are. farmers, was lost through the inability of tanker drivers to reach Kilcoy to collect milk The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! for the Caboolture co-operative factory. The Chair will tolerate only a limited num­ ber of frivolous interjections. I contend that the situation in Kilcoy and the surrounding district was created by Mr. FRAWLEY: I acknowledge that the the unnecessary action of the Lord Mayor. member for Pine Rivers is a brilliant If we had more control over the Somerset speaker. Dam-and we should have more control over the North Pine Dam, too-such situa­ On 15 September 1972 the Deputy Mayor tions would not occur. of Brisbane (Ald. Bryan Walsh) said that he wished the Brisbane City Council could An Opposition Member: You've lost your wash its hands of the North Pine Dam. He place. said that only because I have got up and 614 Water Act (10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill belted hell out of the council over its deal­ City Council to offer less." That was a ings with people in land resumption for the shocking example of trying to rob an old lady North Pine Dam. Some of the transactions of her heritage. The court awarded her when people were forced out of their homes $50,000 so it was well worth her spending for ridiculous prices for their rich lands $3,000 to get an extra $13,000. With constituted downright robbery and thievery. one exception, everybody who went to court Land in the Samsonvale Valley will be was awarded a higher valuation than had inundated by the waters of the North Pine been offered. In the other case the court Dam. The farmers realise this. People in valuation was the same. It was a small the North Pine areas of Samsonvale and amount of about $10,000 or $15,000. Dayboro accept that progress cannot be Mr. Casey interjected. denied. They do not begrudge the people of Brisbane and surrounding areas their water. Mr. FRAWLEY: I do not want to talk They are prepared to allow their rich, fertile about railway resumptions. lands to be inundated, but they expect a I shall now deal with dams that supply reasonable price. water to another local authority area. The Had this Government not handed over North Pine Dam is in the Pine Rivers Shire. control of the resumption of land for the Water from that dam is supplied to the North Pine Dam to the Brisbane City Redc!iffe City Council and the water for Council, the people in those areas would Deception Bay is taken from the trunk line have received a far better deal. The leading to Redcliffe. Deception Bay is in the Wivenhoe Dam resumptions bear out that shire of Caboolture and the Caboolture contention. Shire Council pays the Redcliffe City Council for that water and, in turn, the Redcliffe Mr. Casey: Wasn't the land resumed under City Council pays the Pine Rivers Shire the provisions of the Acquisition of Land Council. An additional 1,250,000 gallons Act? of water is taken under the Hornibrook Mr. Jensen interjected. Highway from the Brisbane City Council reservoir at Bracken Ridge. The Redcliffe The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! City Council has been well treated by the I will tolerate only one interjection at a Pine Rivers Shire Council. All the dealings time. between them have not caused any problems. Mr. FRAWLEY: Yes, the land was At present, the water for Redcliffe comes resumed under the Acquisition of Land Act. from Lake Kurwongbah Dam, which is in As is well known, valuers of the Brisbane the Pine Rivers Shire. City Council valued the land at a certain Mr. Casey interjected. figure and the people who owned it wanted Mr. FRAWLEY: I agree with the honour­ more. They wrote to the Brisbane City able member for Mackay. I am in favour Council asking for its payment and indicating of a water board to control all of this water, they would negotiate about the difference or particularly when a shire or city obtains go to court. Under the Acquisition of Land water from a dam situated outside its Act that money should have been paid boundaries. Redcliffe has no fresh water within 90 days. It never was. People who supply of its own. It has plenty of salt were willing to accept the amount offered water, but its fresh water supply is negligible. and negotiate for the difference were denied Several bores have been sunk in various the use of the money. They still did not years in Redcliffe, but an acceptable water get it under the Acquisition of Land Act. supply has never been found. The bore I have raised this matter in this Chamber water is rather brackish and, although it is on more than one occasion. fit for human consumption, it is not pleasant Mr. Casey: Surely the Brisbane City to drink. Council could have been prosecuted under The control of the North Pine Dam should the Act. be taken from the Brisbane City Council and Mr. FRAWLEY: It was not prosecuted given to a water board. I do not intend to under the Act. waste the time of the Committee. I have not wasted any so far. I have made a It cost people as much as $3,000 to go to reasonable contribution and I hope that I court. Of six cases that went to court in have enlightened the honourable member for which I took an interest, with one exception Bundaberg on Somerset Dam. His ignorance the court gave a higher valuation than the about it is absolutely appalling. Brisbane City Council had offered. I I commend the Minister on introducing this instanced the case of a Miss Bell, who was Bill. I hope it goes further and takes from a spinster living in that area. She was the Brisbane City Council control of any offered, I think, $39,000 for her land and she wanted $60,000. The Brisbane City dam. Council valuer met her outside the door of Motion (Mr. Hewitt) agreed to. the Land Court and said, "We will up our Resolution reported. offer by $5,000." When he was asked in court why he had increased the offer by FIRST READING $5,000 he said, "That was always my valua­ Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. tion but I was instructed by the Brisbane Hewitt, read a first time. Rural Fires Act [10 APRIL 1975} Amendment Bill 615

RURAL FIRES ACT AMENDMENT BILL The additional terms of imprisonment (six months and twelve months respectively) are INITIATION IN COMMITTEE unchanged. It is pointed out that the penal­ (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. ties under the Act have not been altered Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) since 1955, and bear little relationship to today's values. There is no proposal to Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Leader introduce a minimum penalty under the Act, of the House) (5.21 p.m.): I move- but undoubtedly the maximum figure comes "That a Bill be introduced to amend the into consideration when a reasonable fine Rural Fires Act 1946-1973 in certain par­ is being considered. ticulars." The remaining clauses are procedural and The Bill is aimed primarily at correcting machinery amendments. They include the anomalies or covering changes which legal declaration of rural ,fire districts by notifica­ opinion and experience have indicated are tion instead of Order in Council; the exten­ necessary for the proper implementation of sion of the authority of a forest officer at the Act. a fire to a distance of three kilometres from Section 13 of the Act, which is probably his reserve; clarifying the position re permits the most important and certainly the most for fireworks; and permitting the board to used section, is being amended by the Bill dispose of material removed from a fire­ to establish clearly- hazardous area subsequent to a refusal of (i) which fires come within its pro­ the occupier to comply with an order. visions; I commend the Bill for favourable con­ (ii) the powers of the board to make sideration. regulations governing the use of fire in Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (5.25 p.m.): The the sugar cane industry; Minister said that the Bill makes only cer­ (iii) the authority of an inspector of tain minor amendments to the Act, and the board to arbitrate, where necessary, if that they are designed mainly to effect dispute arises over permits to burn; and changes that legal opinion and experience (iv) facilitating burning where adjoining have indicated are necessary. I assume that properties are owned by absentee land­ that is correct. lords. The Minister referred to cane fires, or rt is obvious that the provisions should not burning, in the sugar industry. I should like apply to those types of fires which are pro­ to know more about the powers of the perly household fires, or to the types of board to make regulations governing the fires covered by other sections of the Act. use of fires in the sugar industry. It is It is equally clear that the burning require­ interesting to note that a representative of ments within the cane industry require specific the cane-growers will be on the board, provisions which will allow burning to and that is very necessary when one remem­ achieve the objects of the exercise within bers that regulations are to be made to a framework of reasonable safety. It is control cane fires. proposed in another clause of the Bill (clause 4) to allow an extension of the pre­ Although certain regulations are in force sent limits on board membership, and it is at the moment, additional ones are needed. anticipated that the cane industry will be When people burn indiscriminately or fail invited to be represented on the board. to take notice of the cane-firing forecasts that are issued each day to the sugar indus­ Absentee landholders cause considerable try, another person's cane may be burnt. troubles in rural areas both in regard to In fact, incidents of that type occur almost normal burning within the Act and in fire every day of the week in sugar-growing hazards. A landholder living on and work­ areas of the State. ing his property should not be unduly restricted in his burning programme because I think that the proposal to allow burn­ the neighbouring property is owned by some­ ing on properties adjoining those owned by one in another State. Safeguards are already absentee landowners is quite sound. In existing through the permit provisions, and some instances it is impossible to defer the the amendment facilitates burning within the burning until absentee landowners are con­ law. tacted. A serious situation may arise and it may be necessary to burn certain areas Some attention has been given to the to save the crops in other areas. In cir­ operations of sawmills both by definition cumstances such as that, one cannot worry and by reference to the stacking and storage about absentee landowners. of timber-in other words, fire safety within the mill. The amendments proposed appear to be The authority of rural fires inspectors has only minor ones. Although the Opposition been specifically defined both in respect of may have to consider some of them more issue of permits mentioned above and in carefully when the Bill is printed, at the taking control of fire operations. moment it agrees to them. It is proposed to increase the penalties Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (5.28 p.m.): under the Act. The normal penalty will In recent times, the defined areas of respon­ rise from a maximum of $200 to $400, and sibility of inspectors under the provisions of in emergency periods from $400 to $800. the Rural Fires Act have been a matter 616 Rural Fires Act (10 APRIL 1975] Amendment Bill of grave disputation. Unfortunately, anta­ Mr. HANSON: As common sense has gonism has been created and, at times, con­ come into play over the years, as legislation siderable dissension has arisen in rural areas has been improved and as new techniques about the administrative powers of people have been developed-and the sugar industry filling the role of inspectors and acting has always been to the fore with new tech­ more or less as supervisors and other people niques-we have formulated this very ade­ in authority who administer the provisions of quate provision covering the burning of cane, the Act. Much of that has been created and I am very happy about it. Naturally by the inspectors themselves, some of whom, from time to time in country areas there is because they have a small title bestowed upon grave concern on neighbouring farms when them, assume a Napoleonic type of attitude cane is fired. Without the permission of the and strut the stage and cause considerable Rural Fires Board some people decide to put anxiety to people performing their ordinary the "red steer" through their cane and con­ daily chores. sequently cause considerable damage on the It is high time that the Act was amended properties of neighbours. When a strong to define clearly the authority of inspectors. south-easterly or westerly wind is blowing, a Although certain individuals may find it fire can easily spread into a neighbour's pad­ difficult to stomach such a change, I hope dock. that, in the interests of the service, they will It is good to realise that provision has been be told bluntly and plainly what the aims made for a representative of the sugar indus­ of the Legislature and the Minister are, try to be a member of the Rural Fires Board. so that they will deal amicably with people This is something that has been desired by in rural areas. It is very refreshing to see the the Cane Growers' Council for many years. provisions that the Minister has proposed Requests for this representation have fallen relative to the making of regulations govern­ on deaf ears even though this is the Govern­ ing the use of fire in the sugar industry. ment that says it is on the side of the rural Many of my relatives were engaged in the producer and is the great friend of the man sugar industry in years gone by. They came in the sugar industry. Finally the Govern­ from the Old Country to face the onerous ment has got the message, largely because of task of working in the cane fields. They cut the pleadings of members of the Opposition significant tonnages of green cane and loaded and people in the sugar industry with good it onto trucks. Naturally they suffered con­ Labor thoughts who have said, "It is about siderable privation and hardship. To their time you got a little bit of common sense." credit they joined a very fine body within Common sense has finally prevailed. the union movement-the Aus·tralian I wish to look very carefully at the pro­ Workers' Association which eventually vision mentioned by the Minister which became part and parcel of the Australian gives authority to an inspector of the board Workers' Union. Much of the early union to arbitrate if a dispute arises over permits. movement in this State sprang up in the cane It is a very touchy provision and one that fields. A great camaraderie and spirit of will receive the very close scrutiny of the unionism prevailed in the cane fields. Many committee headed by the honourable mem­ of those working in the cane fields in those ber for Bundaberg, a man who is well versed early days were eventually able to acquire in the sugar industry. The honourable mem­ farms of their own. ber is well qualified. He is a technologist in the industry and a man of very high stand­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! Unfortunately ing and qualifications. this has nothing to do with rural fires. I ask the honourable member to come back It is high time something was done about to them. the absentee-landlord provisions. While talk­ ing about rural fires I will give the Govern­ Mr. HANSON: Very much so, with due ment some food for thought. I can take respect. In those days, as members of the Government members to a rural area where sugar industry here will know, unfortunately a fire could easily occur, and if it did there there were people who were referred to as could be wholesale tragedy. This is a matter "fire sticks". A very grave penalty was that concerns not only the Minister respon­ imposed on anyone who was caught lighting sible for the Rural Fires Board but also the up a cane field. Of course, there were acci­ Minister for Health. I am referring to a dental fires. certain rural area in this State where three deserted farm houses are used for the storage Mr. Casey: A former National Party Min­ of dynamite. It is indeed an explosive situa­ ister in this House was known by the nick­ name "Firestick". tion! I doubt whether the doors on the buildings have keys. Any criminal who Mr. HANSON: May the Lord bless his wished to break and enter the houses and soul! I say it quite frankly and openly: I steal the dynamite would have an open go. knew him as a gentleman. He worked in the But the Government has turned a blind same cane field-- eye to this situation simply because certain persons in authority have not got the guts to TI1e CHAIRMAN: Order! With the enforce the provisions of the Rural Fires Act. greatest tolerance in the world I am not They have no stomach whatever. allowing any dodge like that. The honour­ able member will get back to the Bill. Mr. Katter interjected. Rural Fires Act [10 APRIL 1975] Amendmeni Bill 617

Mr. HANSON: There is no point in the The importance of the rura~ fires boards verbose member for Flinders interjecting. scattered throughout Queensland bf:comes He is here only because his dear daddy stood obvious now that the countryside is heavily over the mob at the selection tribunal. How­ grassed. All of Queensland is divided into ever, that is by the way, and this is a very rural fires districts. The important districts serious matter. are the fire wardens' districts that are already gazetted by the much simpler notification I intend to reveal in private to the Min­ method. The amendment merely obviates ister concerned the location of these three unnecessary procedures. houses. For obvious reasons I will not divulge it in the Chamber. It is not that In the past there has been a great deal of I mistrust Government members-apart from confusion. We are clarifying the making of their political affiliations I have the greatest regulations for the variation-of-notice pro­ respect for them all-but if this matter were visions relative to burning, including trash highlighted in the Press wholesale tragedy and tops, etc., because trash and tops are not could result. This situation has existed for mentioned in the existing legislation. At a lengthy period, yet the Government has present, section 13 gives authority for the turned a deaf ear towards it. I hope that 1 making of regulations in respect of pre­ have got my message across. harvest burning, but not the burning of trash and tops. Regulation 29, which grants a I turn now to fire safety in sawmills. It concession concerning trash and tops, is is unfortunate that in recent years the num­ actually ultra vires the Act. bers of sawmills in the State have been depleted. Many sawmills have gone out of The only thing that I see against the Rural business. In my area, however, there is one Fires Act is the inability to get a conviction of the most modern sawmills in Australia. under it. It is virtually impossible to do so. It has been constructed by a consortium of One requires a lot of evidence and it is small millers with expertise in the industry. almost necessary to actually see a person I have no doubt whatever that they have dropping a match. At various party meetings adopted a responsible attitude and taken ade­ I drew attention to the fact that very few quate precautions to prevent the outbreak of convictions had been entered. fire at that mill. I am disappointed that the legislation does not bind the Crown. Anybody on the land Unfortunately, owing to the economic knows what damage can be done by fires, decline that has occurred since this Govern­ but quite a number of fires are caused by ment came into office-- the Crown and semi-governmental authori­ Mr. Alison: Yes, this Federal Government. ties, which are also exempt. l know that under the Rural Fires Act a small committee Mr. HANSON: The honourable member regulates this but I believe that the Crown for Maryborough interjects. Since this State should be bound in the same way as land­ Government has been in office and since he owners. I am sure that binding the Crown has represented the Mary borough area, the would go a long way to remedying a number of licensed sawmills there has situation that has caused a great deal of decreased sharply. If the people in Mary­ concern in country areas. borough are not aware of that fact, I shall I am pleased that penalties have been certainly acquaint them with it in the next increased. At present they are of no great election campaign. It is a disgrace, and consequence. A person may be brought it is a pity that the honourable member has before a court and fined a couple of hundred not dedicated himself to the interests of dollars, but, by the same token, a man with his electors. a match can cause thousands of dollars As I said initially, we do not wish to see damage to neighbouring properties. While it inspectors in Napoleonic garb patrolling the may be said that in such cases we have State inflicting unnecessary provisions on redress in common law, it often costs a lot of people or going outside the provisions and money to take action in court. And what telling them what they should or should not happens if the person concerned has no do. Common sense must prevail in the money? It does not give much satisfaction implementation of the provisions of this to send him to gaol, even if that could be measure so that the State of Queensland done. as a whole will benefit from it. I appreciate the job that fire wardens are doing in various areas, but to a certain Mr. GUNN (Somerset) (5.39 p.m.): As a extent their hands are tied. Because I can­ member of the Minister's committee I com­ not see any way around it, I do not blame mend this Bill as one of some importance, the Minister. It is very hard to get a particularly to country people. It embodies conviction against a person. That is the only 26 amendments to the Act and therefore fault I can find in the amendments. I com­ should not be treated lightly. The Minister's mend them, believing that they are absolutely committee first began to discuss the pro­ necessary because this year could be the posed amendments prior to the recent elec­ busiest year for rural fires authorities. No­ tion. It is only now that we have come up one has to go far into rural areas to see the with what we regard as satisfactory amend­ strong growth of grass. Some of the fiercest ments to the Act. fires have occurred in bushland surrounding 618 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill

Brisbane. It is ironic that some of the In the interest of uniformity and in order heaviest bushland is within a few miles of to attract suitably qualified appointees to the G.P.O. the bench of the Land Court, the proposed I do not intend to speak further at this amendment restores the parity previously stage, but shall probably take part in the existing between industrial commissioners and second-reading debate. I commend the Land Court members and in addition pre­ measure to honourable members. serves the rights of existing court members in respect of accrued leave of absence Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Leader already due to members whn have been of the House) (5.44 p.m.), in reply: As I in office more than 10 years. introduced this measure on behalf of a Members of the Land Court in office at Minister who is away on parliamentary the passing of this Bill who elect to remain business at the moment, I have had a note contributors to the State Service Superannua­ taken of the points raised, especially the tion Fund will remain entitled to take leave emotional explosion of the honourable mem­ of absence as prescribed by section 3 of ber for Port Curtis. No doubt, in his reply the Supreme Court Acts Amendment Act at the second-reading stage, the Minister will of 1944, namely 12 months after 10 years' dampen the honourable member's fears and completed service and one and one-fifth fires, and I am sure that he will cover all mnnths for every further year of service. other points raised. There will be no restriction as to when Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. such leave can be taken. It will make no Resolution reported. difference whether such service was before or after the passing of the Bill. FIRST READING Members at the passing of the Bill who Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. take a non-contributory pension will be Hodges, read a first time. entitled to leave of absence as prescribed by section 15 (1) of the Judges Pensions LAND ACT AND ANOTHER ACT Act 1957·1974, namely six months after AMENDMBNT BlJLL seven years' completed service and six-sevenths of a month for every further year of service, INITIATION IN COMMITTEE and must take such leave within three years after completing any period of seven years' (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. W. D. service unless the Governor in Council Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the chair) approves otherwise. This applies to service Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Leader of both before and after the passing of the the House) (5.47 p.m.): On behalf of the Bill. Minister for Lands, Forestry, National Parks However, members who, at the passing and Wildlife Service, I move- of the Bill, take a non-contributory pension "That a Bill be introduced to amend and have an accured entitlement in that the Land Act 1962-1974 in certain par­ they have served 10 or more years do not ticulars and the Forestry Act 1959-1974 lose their accrued entitlement (that is, 12 in a certain particular." months' leave for 10 years' service) but This Bill is being introduced primarly to after the passing of the Bill their entitlement initiate a new concept of conversion of becomes six months after seven years' grazing selections to a grazing homestead service. perpetual lease tenure. Opportunity has been Members appointed after the passing of taken to include minor adjustments considered the Bill will be entitled to leave of absence essential and to relate similar entitlements as prescribed by section 15 (1) of the Judges as to leave and pensions held by industrial Pensions Act 1957-1974, namely, six months commissioners to members of the Land Court. after seven years' service, and such leave must be taken within three years unless the After the passing of the Industrial Con­ Governor in Council otherwise approves. ciliation and Arbitration Act Amendment Act 1974, it became evident that, although salary Turning now to the amendments of the basis was the same, the parity that previously Act whereby lessees of grazing selections are existed between Land Court members and to be given the choice of applying for con­ industrial commissioners in relation to leave version to freeholding tenure or a right of absence and pension entitlements had to apply for conversion to a perpetual lease disappeared to the disadvantage of Land tenure, I make the following observations. Court members. As distinct from pasto_ral lease zones The amendment Act mentioned equates an further out, the process of settlement in industrial commissioner's leave of absence to grazing areas west of the 20 in. rainfall those of a District Courts judge and to line is virtually complete. Within that area, those of a fairly recently appointed Supreme there are no grazing selections which war­ Court judge and enables a commissioner to rant further fragmentation; hence there is no reason to _continue a policy of limiting become entitled to a non~ontributory pension with certain rights in respect of any con­ such grazing selections to terms of 30 years. tributions made to the State Service Super­ The proposed new tenure, namely, graz­ annuation Fund. ing homestead perpetual lease, will be better Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 619 understood on the property market, will be certain leasehold tenures, it is proposed to welcomed by banks and brokers and will be provide that a recognised company as defined better security for lending authorities. in the Companies Act shall also have the Additionally, there will be a saving in same competency. administrative resources and costs involved in inspections, valuation, processing and It is considered that a recognised company recording normally associated with conversion should not be disadvantaged should it desire or renewal of leases. to acquire or hold certain leasehold tenures under the Land Act which are capable of Grazing selections in other parts of the being acquired or held by a company reg­ State will be eligible for similar conversion istered under the Queensland Companies on the basis that the holding does not sub­ Act. stantially exceed a living area. The Land Act presently provides for Upon conversion to grazing homestead transmission by death of leasehold tenures perpetual lease, all law and practice relating to be entered in the records of the depart­ to timber, quarry material, rental, transfers, ment without the expense entailed in apply­ transmissions, mortgages, subleases and other ing for a grant of probate or grant of admin­ encumbrances, maximum areas, development istration, provided the gross value of the conditions, occupation and personal residence, estate does not exceed $12,000. This figure agistment and fencing shall apply as if the grazing homestead perpetual lease were a has stood since 1962. Inflationary trends, grazing selection. This proposal is a major increased improvement costs and depreciation land tenure policy change and constitutes a in money values since that time suggest significant modern approach to Crown land that the figure should be increased to a management in the State's grazing districts. more realistic level of $50,000. No loss of Crown revenue will occur as a result of Minor amendments previously referred to this amendment, and a considerable saving of concern- legal expenses will accrue to many more (1) The authorisation of the Governor deceased estates. in Council to prescribe the interest rate to be charged on the balance of purchase Finally, an amendment to the Forestry price of land sold at auction for an Act is necessary by including the new tenure estate in fee simple or special leases con­ grazing homestead perpetual lease in the verted to freehold upon terms over a definition of "Crown holding" in that Act period up to 10 years; so that all forest products and quarry mat­ erial will remain the property of the Crown (2) The competency of certain companies to hold leasehold land; and as provided in section 45 of the Forestry Act. (3) The limit of the amount of gross value of a deceased estate at which trans­ I commend the Bill to the Committee. mission by death may be entered without the expense involved in applying for grant Mr. K. .J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (5.56 of probate or administration. p.m.): The Opposition views with suspicion this legislation amending the Land Act. After In view of fluctuations in money values and the price the State is required to pay on the election of 7 December, we wondered how its own borrowings, it is considered that long it would be before the National Party interest charged on the type of freehold put forward a Bill for the pay-off to the purchases mentioned should bear some big companies for their help in that election relationship to the current price of money. campaign. I know, from personal experience It is proposed that the Governor in Council in the West during that campaign, the be authorised to orescribe such interest extent of this assistance. In the electorates rates as may be n'ecessary from time to of Gregory and Belyando, there was no time depending upon the prevailing economic dearth of wealthy graziers and mining com­ climate. Interest rates on similar past con­ pany representatives who made their aircraft tracts are fixed at 5 per cent and this pro­ available to take those who are now the posed authority will not interfere with such honourable members for Gregory and Bely­ interest rate. ando round their electorates. Following agreement by the States of Mr. Lester: He's on the dole. Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria, the Companies Act Amendment Act 1974 The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable became law and section 27 thereof dealt member for Belyando will contain himself with a new term, namely, "recognised com­ a little. pany". Although section 27 of the Com­ panies Act Amendment Act 1974 provides Mr. K. .J. HOOPER: If that grazier is on that "a recognised company shall have power the dole, it is because of the excessive use to hold land in the State", opinion has made of his aircraft by the honourable mem­ been expressed that this power does not ber for Belyando during the election cam­ apply to leasehold land. paign. Where the Land Act merely provides that We have only to cast our minds back to a company registered in Queensland under December to remember the incursions of the the Companies Act is competent to hold National Party into city electorates. 620 Land Act and Another (10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill

The CHAIRMAN: Order! National Party a Bill to amend the Land Act. Some of incursions into city electorates have nothing the great debates in the history of this whatever to do with the Land Act which Assembly have been on the Land Act. is now under consideration. If the honour­ Mr. Marginson interjected. able member continues in this strain, he The CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope that will not get very far with his speech. the honourable member for Wolston is not reflecting on my ruling. I have power at my Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The present National, Party-- disposal, and I will not hesitate to use it. Mr. Marginson interjected. Mr. FRAWLEY: I rise to a point of order. I draw your attention, Mr. Hewitt, The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable to the fact that the honourable member is member for Wolston will contain himself. reading a prepared brief from the Trades If he wishes to reflect on the Chairman's Hall. He should be using notes. ruling, let him do so, and then let him face my authority for doing it. The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is no valid point of order. Mr. AHERN: I am sure that the honour­ able member's exuberance is affecting him, Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The present National Mr. Hewitt. Party member for. Wynnum, for example, As I said, some of the great debates in who spent a mass1ve amount of money in the history of this Assembly have been on fighting for his seat and now finds himself the Land Act. It seems that the Government in this Parliament-- can now do virtually what it likes in amend­ ing the Land Act and the amendments are The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have already passed almost by default by the Opposition warned the honourable member. He chooses in this Chamber. I inform the Committee to ignore my ruling, so he will now resume that I do not intend to allow that to his seat. happen. The Land Act has been such a significant part of the State's history that Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (5.58 p.m.): meaningful amendments to it should not be It is my intention to say a few words on allowed to be passed unnoticed when they the Bill, and I rise now for the specific are brought before the Parliament of this purpose of keeping the debate going because State. These are meaningful amendments, there are a couple of National Party mem­ and I wish to make some comments on them bers who wish to take the opportunity of and make it quite clear that, although I speaking to such an important amendment will support them, I am not completely to the Land Act. I do not think it proper happy about them. that, when such a Bill as this comes before The amendments proposed inevitably the Parliament, some members should be represent a further weakening of the tradi­ deprived of the opportunity to debate the tional policies-and I emphasise the word measure simply because of the events that ''traditional"--of what was the Country Party have just happened so swiftly. I think the and what is now the National Party. These honourable members for Somerset, Cunning­ policies were conceived in good conscience ham and Hinchinbrook would like to say in the early days of the Country-Liberal something about these important amendments to the Land Act. Government and were applied by men of prin~;ipk. TIH::y kd io a standard of devel­ The amendments that the Leader of the opment in the pastoral and grazing lands House has introduced on behalf of the Min­ that has given many young people an oppor­ ister for Lands, who is attending an import­ tunity to own and develop land in this State ant conference in Canberra, have been and also encouraged the development of detailed by him. They relate to certain many western towns. These policies, which pension entitlements of members of the Land have been described on many occasions as Court. I think honourable members will owner-driver policies, were good for Queens­ see that those amendments are reasonable. land and were, in fact, the basis of the They relate to the disadvantage that Land development of towns in Western Queensland. Court members have suffered compared with I pay tribute to those who were conscientious others in similar positions. enough to resist the pressures and insist that development of that type took place. [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] It is understandable that these policies Mr. AHERN: Before dealing in a little would be under attack by the holders of more detail with some of the matters that larger areas of land who inevitably would I mentioned before the dinner recess, I wish have to surrender some of it at the expiry to make some comment on the effort of the of their lease in order to give effect to them. honourable member of the Opposition who But the party of which I am a member had endeavoured to address himself to the motion a commitment to give the smaller man and now before the Committee. A dreadful situ­ the younger man that opportunity, and it ation will arise in this Parliament if no-one has honoured its commitment to do that. on the Opposition benches rises to address In the early days of the Country-Liberal himself to a matter of such importance as Government, men such as Alan Fletcher Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 621 and Alf Muller came under considerable crit­ would be known that members would be try­ icism for these policies. Happily, they cannot ing to avoid controversy, and after the now be reversed, and I believe that those election it is said that we have to honour men deserve a tribute from this Parliament. the commitments on which we went to the The amending Bill now before the Com­ people. That is not good enough. New and mittee proposes, firstly, to enable existing old members are open-minded enough to have these matters discussed with them. I grazing ~elections in the under 20 in. rainfall areas to be converted to perpetual leases and believe we can come up with a satisfactory to enable people in these areas to apply for solution. In the past, fortunately, the major restricted freehold. I ask for clarification settlement of the State under the land on that point. policies I previously discussed has been achieved. Fortunately not a great deal can The Minister said in his introductory be done to interfere with the situation that remarks that the holders of grazing selec­ was brought about. My thanks certainly go tions will be entitled to freehold. I ask him to previous Ministers for Lands, who did to qualify that statement. Is it to be restric­ such sterling work in the early days of this ted or unrestricted freehold? If it is restricted Government. freehold, I have no argument with it because the major settlement in that area has Mr. KATTER (Flinders) (7.25 p.m.): This occurred. It is in such a dry part of the Bill is probably the most important measure State that I think the holders of those leases that I will see introduced into this Chamber. are entitled to some continuity in their It concerns the ownership of the most basic planning. I believe that the management of productive resource in this country, that is, that area is handled best that way and I land. Every significant revolution that has welcome that part of the Bill. taken plac.e in the long history of nations Provision is made for companies to hold has been a redistribution revolution. No leasehold land. As the Minister said, under matter what glorious titles might be given to the Companies Act companies at the moment the Chinese and other revolutions, and no are allowed to own freehold land in the matter what reasons might be put forward State, but there is some doubt as to the for them, such as the drive toward position of recognised companies holding nationalism or Communism, the fact remains leasehold land. I suppose it was inevitable that they all concerned the redistribution of that one day we would allow this to happen. land. What we are doing is opening the gates As times goes on, land and accumulated further for companies in western areas. I wealth belong to fewer and fewer people. believe this will tend to operate to the In other words, fewer and fewer people own detriment of the people we have traditionally the most basic and most productive resource represented in those towns and areas. As I of any nation. When that occurs we see said, l feel it was inevitable that this would what we have witnessed throughout the world occur, and it has occurred. It is something recently, a series of revolutions. that we should not resist for ever. To turn to the Bill-our present land sys­ The probate provision is an excellent one, tem is socialist in concept in that it tells and one that will be well received in the people what land they shall own and the western areas. Some absolutely ridiculous length of time for which they will own it. situations were occurring because probate This system was introduced by persons with was being required before a transfer could good intentions. They felt that as many be registered. people as possible should be put onto the Let no-one be confused-! am sure no-one land. The Katter family has lived in my is confused-about the measure of disagree­ area for almost a century, and with know­ ment between the members of the lands ledge of what has gone on in earlier years committee of the National Party organisation I claim that this land policy has, to a very and members of this Parliament on living­ large degree, failed miserably. area standards and associated matters. The In the first week of my term of office in cattle situation as it is today, the wool this Parliament I prepared a five or six situation and the dreadful situation with foolscap page submission to the Minister inflation as it exists in this country have concerned indicating that in the shire council tended to soothe the differences that exist areas of Cloncurry and Julia Creek nearly between us. I certainly now recognise the one-quarter of the land had passed from need for more generous standards, although private to company ownership. I see this many moves have been made administratively as an unhappy development and a sad reflec­ in recent times to palliate the situation. So tion on our present land policies. This Bill I will be voting in favour of the Bill. is aimed at changing the fundamentals of Before taking my seat I take the oppor­ our present land policies, so we must look tunity to voice publicly an exception and closely at the possible effects that will flow protest at major changes in land policy that from such a change. are from time to time included in a Over the past few years there have been Premier's policy speech, without reference approximately 30 or 40 families in the Cion­ to the members of our party, and in the curry and Julia Creek shire areas who, until knowledge that they would not be com­ the recent crash, had sufficient cattle to enable pletely happy about them. At the time, it them to earn a handsome living from their 622 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill

small blocks of land but who, under the names of the properties involved. I said, present system, could not obtain additional "All I know is that they have passed from land on which to graze their cattle. It is a private hands to public hands." When I sad reflection on our present social order went into the individual cases I found that that they were deprived of the opportunity of all the properties had passed because the doing their own thing in their own time. owners were desperate. The transfers occurred This Bill provides, in effect, that a person during the 15-year drought or the wool­ who owns a block of land will so own it price crash, times when men who had until the end of time. It will give a land­ worked hard all their lives had no-one to owner a territorial relationship with his hold­ sell their properties to other than companies. ing-something that he has not enjoyed to Ministers, and departmental officials, in date. their wisdom and humanity-I stress the Recently a friend of mine in my area. word humanity-enabled these people to change the land tenure so that the com­ Doug Logan-a member of an old pioneerin o family-asked me, "Have you been to th~ panies would buy the blocks. Tne net New England district?" I replied, "Yes." He result is very sad for the State of Queens­ asked, "What struck you about it?" I said, "I land. In a number of instances the blocks was stunned when I first went there to see were perhaps too small, while others were that people developed properties and erected undercapitalised. But the major reason would houses as if they would be there for a cen­ be disasters like the 15-year drought or the tury." By comparison, in my area no-one sudden, inexplicable crash of the wool builds a house or develops a property with market, which, again, is mirrored in the the intention of staying there very long. beef market. We must help people to People in my area seem ashamed of the fact develop on a long-term basis, and make that they live there. They tend to build with money available on a long-term basis so the objective of leaving the area in about that they will be covered in times of disaster. 10 years and retreating to the cool security The 30 or 40 families in the Julia Creek­ of the coastal towns and cities. This is a Cloncurry area will now have a very good sad reflection indeed on our land develop­ chance of getting together by pooling their ment policies, and would break the hearts resources, buying a number of the very of the brave pioneers who went into that large properties and then cutting them up. area. A number of large properties need cutting Doug Logan also asked, "Why do you up. This will benefit the town, the district think people in the New England district and the State. I am sure that if these built as if they were to be there for 100 persons approach the Minister the properties years, and why do you think people build will be cut up and we will see genuine out here in corrugated iron and wood?" I development of the land in the area which hadn't given the matter very much thought could not possibly take place under the old and I gave a very facile answer. I said, leasehold system. I strongly favour freehold "The climate is better and they have better and perpetual lease. rainfall." I added a number of similar Under this legislation we are moving from reasons. He said, "I think you are wrong. a socialist situation into a private-ownership It relates to the land-tenure system." I situation. On the benches on my right are went home and thought about it. members of the party which has socialism as When one considers a 30-year period and its major tenet, that is, ownership of pro­ thinks in terms of the money required to duction and the means of production. That develop, stock and finance a property is one of the first items in that party's little properly, one realises one is talking about policy booklet, and it is one of the major a lot of money. It is very difficult in a tenets or driving forces behind the Labor lifetime to pay off a $200,000 mortgage. Party in Canberra. If ever Labor gets the Thirty years is a very short time for a one­ seats on my left it will be a similar socialist man operation to pay off such a debt. In a force here. I point out relative to socialism period of 30 years it is very difficult for that some very interesting experiments have people to develop country in the way it been carried out in a new field called should be developed. I am very pleased to ethology. note the changes effected here. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable After listening to the honourable member gentleman will relate his comments to the for Landsborough, I view the future with Bill under discussion. I will not allow a apprehension and I should not like to say broad dissertation on socialism. cold bloodedly that the issues are as clear Mr. KATTER: With respect, we are mov­ cut as I make them out to be at the moment. ing from a socialist situation, under which It is with great concern that I view the land is owned by the Government and changes in the area surrounding Julia Creek­ leased to private persons, to one in which Cloncurry. When I spoke to the Minister the Government has little to do with it. for Lands about it, he said to me, "They It belongs to the individual. Consequently, could not possibly have done that. These are I think my remarks are pertinent. Will grazing selections which simply cannot be the Chair accept that? given to companies." I had done my home­ work well and I could quote to him the The CHAIRMAN: Proceed. Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 623

Mr. KATIER: I return to this experiment, Let us see how these two laboratory a very interesting one that was conducted experiments have turned out. In Russia with rats. A big pavilion was divided into there is the same amount of arable land four parts. Each of four Alpha rats, which for the same period of the year as there is were able to hold, occupy and I would in the United States. Therefore, we could use the expression "own" land, held a ter­ expect approximately the same production ritory of approximately one-quarter of the figures. In the United States one man at the pavilion. More and more rats were then plough releases 12 men for work in the fed into the pavilion. Those rats constituted factories. In Russia it takes one man at the a random sample and could not hold ter­ plough to release one man for production ritory. There was no ownership concept. in factories. Its agricultural production under The rats in the centre of the arena, which socialist ownership has been a total disaster. could not hold territory, constantly fought. I would be ashamed to be associated with The expression "rat race" was very relevant any party or political philsophy that would to what occurred in the middle of the pavi­ have anything to do with socialism. lion. There was rampant cannibalism, indis­ If that is not conclusive evidence of the criminate mating, infanticide, with eating superiority of the private ownership system, of the baby rats, and disorder and mayhem. let me point out further that in Russia the Yet out on the boundary, where the con­ peasants could not even feed themselves. cept of ownership existed, there was peace, In a desperate effort to keep at least the tranquility and the right to be able to peasants alive Stalin turned over to each develop as rats. family half an acre. On a collective farm, Honourable Members interjected. a family worked roughly 50 acres. Stagger­ ingly, each family produced almost the same Mr. KATTER: Whilst a certain amount of amount on its half acre as it produced mirth might enter into this, the implications on 50 acres. The same is true of Bulgaria, of the experiment were profound. Yugoslavia and Rumania. By land tenure we are trying to achieve I conclude by saying that I would be two objectives: to maximise production of ashamed to be associated with any party such items as food while minimising their or political ideology that would have the cost and, secondly, to enable the individual hide to put in its little booklet, "I am a to do his own thing in his own time. socialist and want to socialise Australia." I now reflect on the first point, maxi­ All I can say is, "Shame on them!" misation of production. I illustrate my point Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (7.41 p.m.): The by quoting two great laboratories in the honourable member for Landsborough took world-the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A. A some time off to chide the Opposition for gentleman called Lenin turned the U.S.S.R. the absence of speakers to this Bill. I draw into a huge laboratory experiment in the attention of the Committee to the socialism. The land in Russia is owned by absence of the Minister for Lands, who the State and worked by employees of the should be present in the House during the State. debate. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I rise to a point Mr. HODGES: I rise to a point of order. of order. What has this to do with the I explained the reason for the absence of Bill? the Minister for Lands. He is in Canberra Mr. KATIER: Everything. attending a special conference. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is no point of order. member is nevertheless entitled to comment upon it. There is no point of order. Mr. KATIER: In the United States of America, Lincoln introduced the Lincoln Mr. MELLOY: Thank you, Mr. Hewitt. Homestead Act, which is similar to what That still does not get over the fact that we have today. It was a concept of owner­ the Minister for Lands has not been in ship under which the little man was entitled the Chamber during the debate on his Bill. to a square mile of territory on three bases: He has denied himself the opportunity of occupation, cultivation and production. As listening to speakers and their opinions on long as he conformed with those three its provisions. requirements, he was entitled to his mile by The honourable member for Flinders mile. expressed concern at the possibility of the They were the two great laboratories. The ownership of land passing from private people on my right would advocate socialism, individuals to companies. I think he has ownership by the State. Their Federal col­ good ground for being concerned about this leagues are presently attempting to reduce matter because, under the terms of thi~ home ownership in every capital city in legislation, we will have a much greater Australia to leasehold instead of private team of Gold Coast or Queen Street graziers ownership. I would like to see them attempt than we have ever had before. to deny that. God forbid that they ever The suggestion has been made that there get their hands on the country over the are sinister undertones to the introduction Great Dividing Range! of this legislation; that it is in the nature 624 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill of a pay-off to huge organisations that There are two parts to the Bill. I have contributed greatly to the funds of the already mentioned the first, and the Opposi­ National Party for the last election. tion is vigorously opposed to allowing com­ panies or their subsidiaries to take over small When Mr. Daly recently introduced in properties. And we are not the only ones the Federal Parliament amendments to the who oppose that principle. Sir Alan Fletcher, electoral law under which it was sought a former Lands Minister, vigorously opposed to find out from all political parties where it, as did the former Minister for Local Gov­ their funds came from-- ernment, Mr. McKechnie. They both An Opposition Member interjected. opposed the present proposal because they could see that it would lead to small farmers Mr. MELLOY: Not just the National being gradually pushed to the wall. The Party in this case, although it would be Labor Party stands firmly for a viable and the wealthiest party in Australia. vigorous rural community made up of ordin­ ary people who work hard for their living The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable and want to see the benefits of that work. member knows my previous ruling with All those who read the Bill will be able regard to discussions on political parties. to see what will now happen. I ask him to keep to the Bill before the The other matter of importance is that Committee. grazing selection lessees are now going to Mr. M_ELLOY: I shall do that, Mr. Hewitt, have the right to apply to convert their leases because 1t seems to be a case of \\ e must to freehold tenure. The Opposition is scep­ look after those people who look after us, tical of this proposal, too. Why on earth and this Bill is very important in this regard. does the Government always seek to down· It will achieve much towards that end. grade the interests of the community in deference to large organisations? On that occasion. Mr. Daly's amend­ ment, Mr. Anthony, a member of Mr. Frawley: That's rot. the National Party, did a double somer­ sault in his attitude to the Bill introduced Mr. MELLOY: It is not rot. If the by Mr. Daly. At first he said he would honourable member reads the Bill, he will support it and then, apparently having see that that is what will happen to land received pressure from somebody, said he ownership. Why does the Government always would not support it. Now the National seek to sell its interests in the community Party introduces a Bill in this Assembly to individuals? The land belongs to the to amend the Land Act to enable large people of Queensland,. and that seems to be companies to acquire in this State freehold abhorrent to the Government, particularly and leasehold land. It is quite obvious to the National Party. The Opposition is entitled the Opposition that this will lead to great to ask why it is that the Government seeks aggregations of small properties. If they were at every opportunity to freehold the land allowed to express a true opinion on the that belongs to the people. One of the first provisions contained in the Bill, many mem­ acts of the Government after attaining office bers of the National Party would go along in 1957 was to hand Crown leasehold land with this view. to freehold interests. That policy was immed­ iately put into effect when the coalition Is the Government's land policy-to put parties had the opportunity to legislate on it in the words once used by Mr. John land holdings. We in the Labor Party McEwen, the then Federal Country Party believe that the Government of the State leader-"to sell the farm bit by bit to over­ should have a vital interest in the use of seas interests?" It seems to the Opposition the State's land. When the Government that parts of this State are going to be relinquishes control of it and hands it over sold to large companies that do not have to overseas interests, it is virtually giving our any connection with Queensland. It seems country away. That is what will be done to us that overseas organisations will be able under the proposed legislation. to come in on the deal, and that in future The interests of conservationists come into years our rural industries will be owned it, too. Without any Government interest in and controlled by overseas interests. We the matter, freeholders can do what they in the Labor Party will not be a party to like with their land. The Opposition does anything in the nature of a sell-out of our not believe in that procedure. It believes that land. the community, through Government depart­ The Labor Party's policy on the holding of ments, has the right to lay down the con­ land in Queensland is quite clear. We ditions on which people shall hoid land. believe in the principle of leasehold tenure Once the Government gives it away, it in order to protect the interests of the indiv­ abdicates controL idual and the community. Many people are concerned about the Mr. Chiuchen: Do you own your own Iwasaki proposal near Yeppoon. The Gov­ home? ernment is prepared to give Iwasaki land up there which, no doubt, in time he will con­ Mr. MELLOY: I am one of the largest vert to freehold, provided he meets the landholders in Banyo! conditions laid down. Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 625

Mr. HARTWIG: I rise to a point of The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honour­ order. Iwasaki does not hold any leasehold. able gentleman knows that has nothing to do with the matter before the Committee. The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is no I ask him to return to the Bill. valid point of order. Mr. MELLOY: It has something to do Mr. MELLOY: Iwasaki is looking for with the result of the vote on the Bill. leasehold land in the area. He owns land The CHAIRMAN: Order! I would like there, and he wants more leasehold land. the honourable gentleman to relate his corn­ Mr. Hartwig: Don't try to bring in lease­ men ts to the Bill. hold. The Government has knocked him Mr. MELLOY: I am trying to do that, back on leasehold. Mr. Hewitt. Mr. MELLOY: It has not given him a The CHAIRMAN: Not with much success. lease of any land yet, but that issue is not dead. We will see in due course whether or lVIr. MELLOY: The Bill is not a very not Iwasaki gets any leasehold land in the good one, from the Opposition's point of Yeppoon area. For the information of the view, and it is rather difficult to relate any honourable member, I point out that I common sense to it. would like to see the land developed as long It seems that the leaders of the National as the Government retained control over Party and the Liberal Party have decided what happened up there. that this legislation will be brought down as Mr. Hartwig: 1 agree with you. a reward to those people who assisted the Government back into office. People from Mr. MELLOY: I think it would improve Tasmania and Victoria who seek to buy into the area. the political scene in those States have expressed the wish to buy into Queensland In 'The Courier-L1ail" of 8 April 1975 rural land. The area of rural land avail­ appeared a report indicating that the Govern­ able in Victoria and Tasmania is limited, ment parties themselves are unhappy about and I have no doubt that southern companies the Bill. However, as happens on a!! matters, will come into Queensland and take control no doubt the Premier will click his fingers of large tracts of land. We have always and Government members will stand up and said that the National Party is not a party toe the party line. that supports small people on the land at all. Government Members interjected. That has been demonstrated by its incursion into the metropolitan area and provincial Mr. ::V1ELLOY: That is a fact. If we are cities. It no longer seeks to stand before to have stable government in a country, that the people as a ~rural party. It wants to is necessary to some degree, but it must not become a metropolitan party. Behind it all, be abused. There will never be stable of course, is the inane desire to crush the government unless there is discipline in the Liberal Party. My God, it nearly did it last Government that controls the country. time, too! On every occasion on which a contentious The CHAIRI\IIAN: Order! For the last matter comes before this Assembly, one or time I ask the honourable member to come two back-bench members of the Government back to the Bill. If he does not, I will ask parties stand up in_ the party room and say him to resume his seat. they are unhappy about the proposed legis­ A Government Member: He knows noth­ lation. But what do they do when the Bill comes before the Assembly? They either ing about it. vote with the Government or, if they have Mr. MELLOY: I am doing a lot better a little bit of spine, walk out and do not than some honourable members opposite. vote on it. One never sees any of them God knows how much they know about it! crossing the floor. Their strength, or lack of it, shows up in their actions in this The objection we have to the Bill is that Chamber. \Valking out is a coward's way it provides an opportunity for the take-over of facing up to his conscience. of large areas in Queensland, not only by Queenslanders-we would not object to that The CHAIRMAN: Order! Could we get so much-but also by overseas and interstate back to the good earth? companies. I referred earlier to the former leader of the Country Party, Sir John Mr. MELLOY: They line up weakly McEwen. He was gravely upset at the idea behind the Premier, Mr. Sparkes, Mr. Moore of multi-national corporations buying up or any other influences that control the farms each year and gradually getting con­ Government coalition parties, and they vote trol in that way. What would he think of the party line. I do not mind their being this National-Party-controlled Government overshadowed in their party room, but I now if he saw what was included in the do object to Mr. Moore or Mr. Sparkes Bill? He would be shocked to learn that interfering and telling members of Parlia­ the party of which he was once the leader ment what to do. had got down to this sort of thing. 626 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975) Act Amendment Bill

We expected this sort of sell-out sooner In the area that I represent, the Lockyer or later. We expected it would be done Valley-! admit it can be termed a select ,either in the mining field or in rural indus­ area-there are people who produce try, by the Government just handing over enormous quantities of foodstuffs from small large chunks of Queensland land to cor­ areas of land. Furthermore, they construct porations with interests outside the State. We beautiful homes. There are not the tin oppose the handing over of Queensland to shacks that can be seen in the back country. outside interests. We wait to see whether One of the reasons why people in the Out­ those who voiced their opposition to this back erect tin shacks is, of course, that they legislation on 7 April will now come for­ do not own their land. It is for this ward and vote in accordance with their con­ reason as well as for many others that I science. applaud these amendments. We do approve of the provision to bring The people of the Outback live and work the pensions and leave provisions of Land under very difficult conditions. Many of Court members into line with those of the them do not have telephones, and a lot of Industrial Commissioners. They are entitled them do not have access to medical services. to that. We go along with anything that Those members who represent these people provides better conditions and terms of appeal regularly for the appointment of employment for anybody in the community doctors to towns in the Far West as well as long as it is in line with what is common as the establishment of schools. Many parents to other sections of the community. in the Far West are forced to send their The Opposition has made it quite clear children away from home for their educa­ that we oppose the Bill because of the prin­ tion. This is both a personal and a finan­ ciples that have been outlined. It is not a cial hardship. They deserve some recog­ matter of whether we are graziers or city nition for the work they do under these slickers. It is because of the principles of trying conditions, and such recognition could the Bill that we oppose it. be given by converting their leases to free­ hold tenure so that they will be able to Mr. GUNN (Somerset) (7.59 p.m.): After pass on their land to their children. listening to the honourable member for Nud­ gee we can well understand the lack of Both the National Party and the Liberal interest shown by the Opposition in this Bill. Party are in favour of free enterprise. There I heard a rumour that the honourable mem­ is no greater free-enterprise system than that ber's name was drawn out of the hat during of landholding. Every large and every small the luncheon recess. That was unfortunate farmer who owns his land does so under a for him, because we would not expect him free-enterprise system. He has this pride of to know a great deal about land matters, ownership to which I have referred and this and that was very noticeable from his speech. keeps him going. To give an example of the production Living-area standards are the greatest fal­ lacy of all times. After all, what is a living­ that can be obtained from freehold land in the Lockyer Valley-! know farmers there area standard? What is a living-area standard this year certainly might not be a living-area who have 60 acres of land and in reasonably standard next year. As the honourable mem­ good seasons have harvested as much as ber for Landsborough pointed out, we did not 200 to 300 tons of potatoes in one crop treat the propo£ed amendments lightly. We and have grown double crops to obtain a have had a lot of meetings and debate on crop of onions from the same ground. Of them. Our party has never been hasty in course they have to work hard to do this. amending legislation. But circumstances alter But we do not need to confine ourselves cases, and circumstances at the present time to my area; this can be seen in any area warrant the proposed amendments. We make where there is freeholding of land. no apology for them. Certainly years ago there Certain Cabinet Ministers own their own was a time when people in the Outback had properties, which are veritable show places. e_nough land and did quite well; but the situa­ Furthermore, the honourable members for tiOn has changed. Once-proud people have Callide and Balonne have successfully be~n :educed to the lowe~t level of poverty. developed their properties under a freehold This IS a very unhappy situation. The con­ system. ditions under which these people live are As to the members of the Land Court­ vastly different from those under which no-one has done more for Crown employees honourable members live. than this Government. I am sure that the I have always been opposed to leasehold State Service Union and other bodies repre­ tenure; I have always considered it to be senting Crown employees are completely sat­ repugnant. To me, it has always been isfied with the retirement benefits that socialistic in concept. Fortunately all the have been given by this Government to its land in my area is freehold. ' employees. Compared with what they With _freehold tenure there is a pride of received prior to 1957 they have moved ownership that does not exist in leaseholding. forward tremendously in this area. Tenants do not know what will happen to I turn now to the leasing of land in the the !~~ 1!hey lease, and there is always the below 20 in. rainfall belt. Whenever Labor possibility that they will lose the lease. The members speak on land matters, we hear two systems are not comparable. the same old cry about companies taking Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 627 over large tracts of land. It has peen proved The amendment to the Land Act will over the years that conditions in the West bring considerable changes in land tenure. and low prices hit everybody. The land­ The grazing homestead perpetual lease owner, whether it be a company or a single tenures referred to by the Minister can be person, is cut down to size by drought. compared somewhat with what are well Many large pastoral companies are presently known to many honourable members, that in financial difficulties. No company that is, the old worker's home perpetual town employs labour and sells its cattle for as leases. That was a landholding policy intro­ little as 1Oc a lb. or its wool for the duced some 50 years ago, I think it would meagre current prices will last for long. be, to enable Queenslanders to obtain a History will repeat itself. The rather large piece of land on which they could build and aggregations will be cut up soon into small settle in permanent residency in the urban parcels once again. areas of the community, in the little town­ ships or on the fringes of those townships. The Land Act provides for the transmission It was only through that type of land policy on death of leasehold tenures to be entered that workers in the early days could obtain into the records of the Lands Department a piece of land on which to build a home. without entailing the expense of applying for a grant of probate or administration Unfortunately, several years ago that legis­ provided the gross value of the estate does lation was rescinded. It is no longer the not exceed $12,000. With inflation running policy in Queensland. The type of policy as it is it is fair and reasonable to increase now being administered under the Land Act that amount to $50,000. It should be made in relation to grazing homestead perpetual clear that this will mean no loss to the leases could well be reintroduced for urban Crown but will mean a great saving in legal land. expenses for the many estates involved. I Mr. Ahern: It worked against them. have seen instances in many country areas of estates having to be sold to pay probate Mr. CASEY: It did and it didn't. The expenses. honourable member for Landsborough used the expression that it worked against them. I do not think anybody can argue against I agree that the stage was reached where the final amendment relative to the Forestry it worked against people, particularly those Act. who way have been transferred, in the matter I am very pleased to see younger members of rentals. taking part in the debate on this very Mr. Ahern: Rents of $400. important measure. Although the Opposition has shown that it is not at all interested Mr. CASEY: Increased rents with increases in it, it is of great interest to Queensland. in valuations, yes, but the same problem I hope to see the day when we have little could be encountered under this legislation. or no leasehold land-when all land is free­ The main reason why there were big hold. That is the policy of my party and increases in the rentals of these workers it has always been my policy. I have always home perpetual town leases was that the been opposed to leasehold and hope to see surrounding land was freehold. Subse· the day when Queensland will be free of quently, a large increase occurred in valua­ the leasehold system. tions. There is the distinct and inherent danger of the same thing happening under Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (8.8 p.m.): I con­ this legislation, particularly on the better gratulate the honourable member for Flinders country of the lands to which we are refer­ on some of the comments he made. I was ring. There will be those who prefer to very interested in his thoughts on encouraging take perpetual leasehold tenure. The way people to settle permanently in the area is made quite clear, too-and I will refer referred to constantly tonight, which the to this a little later-for others to get free­ Minister recognised in his introductory hold tenure in the same area. Increases in speech, that is, the area west of the 24 in. valuations will follow because there will be rainfall line. The honourable member for competition for the land-competition to an Flinders gave a good summary of the prob­ extent not experienced under the old lease· lems encountered there. Much of this area hold balloting provisions that we had in constitutes a big portion of his electorate. Queensland. The area running from Hughenden to Julia Creek and almost to Cloncurry is very well If the legislation is similar to that known for its rainfall and land tenure prob­ introduced in years gone by for lems. From travelling through the area, I another type of land tenure and since know that it is very difficult to get people rescinded, we have to be wary. If members to settle there permanently look at the reasons why that was rescinded, they will see the dangers possibly inherent I thought that the honourable member for in this piece of legislation. That is some­ Flinders outlined clearly some of the main thing we have to seriously consider. None­ reasons why leasehold tenure in most Western theless, if this legislation achieves for the areas has been the policy of successive Gov­ families living in those areas, or for the ernments in Queensland since the early set­ families who want to live in those areas, tlement days. I commend him on his depth the same benefits as were achieved for the of thought and expression. workers of Queensland living in townships 628 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill in the 1920's and 1930's, in that it gave per cent, thus absolutely denying the average them their only opportunity of settling person in this State his inherent right to permanently somewhere, building a home, own a block of land on which he can erect raising a family and contributing to the a dwelling and rear a family of Queenslanders community, whether as an employee or as with the permanent residency they are entitled a grazier, I commend the legislation and to. compliment the Government. I would be Because it means such a lot to the people of quite happy to support it. However, l Queensland who are battling to buy blocks find it to be my duty as a member of Par­ of land I counsel Government members to liament to point out the inherent pitfalls. It look ca'refully at the provision deleting the is important for us to compare the two interest rate of 5 per cent. We certainly concepts and the reasoning behind different do not want the Lands Department to be aspects of legislation. charging them the same rates as hire-purchase Actually, we have turned a complete circle. companies. This must be watched very closely. I believe there is a need for the reintro­ According to the Minister's introduction, duction of the worker's home perpetual town much is being done to alter the tenure of lease scheme. A great deal of Crown land land held by companies. I believe the policy is being split up by the Lands Department in that has existed in this State during the suburban, urban and rural areas throughout past 10 or 15 years of freeholding some Queensland and sold at auction for very high of the major grazing selections has helped prices. An increasing number of these blocks to contribute to high costs in the beef have been bought by the wealthy in the industry. Different families and groups have community. The worker or battler who is had to borrow considerable sums of money trying to set himself and his family up in to pay for freeholding. On top of that, a home and obtain permanent residency the land is not transferred on death at somewhere in the State finds it impossible the old valuation under leasehold but at to do so. the increased valuation arrived at on the There is not as much evidence of it in basis of the freehold tenure of the land. Brisbane as there is in the provincial cities Subsequently many families have had to and country towns. That is where we are borrow additional moneys to pay probate. trying to encourage people to settle. If we They have had to use the land as security are to practise some sort of decentralisation to borrow more money to develop the policy, we must encourage people to get out property. Again, because of the 11 ± per cent and settle in the townships and provincial interest that I referred to earlier. this has cities rather than congregate round this great led to considerable borrowing, which in turn monstrosity that Brisbane is becoming, with has led to a large increase in costs. This all the problems that accompany the develop­ has contributed to the problems confronting ment of a major urban community. For the beef industry. It has been one of the those very reasons, I believe that there is contributing factors that have kept costs so a need to encourage settlement in provincial high and brought about the current economic cities as well as grazing areas. problems. The proposals in the Bill will aggravate In his introduction, the Minister said that the situation. Even though land is being one of the reasons for the conversion of auctioned by the Land Administration Com­ grazing homestead leases to perpetual town mission in various developments in Queens­ lease tenures is that there are no grazing land, the one saving grace is that the battler leases left for further fragmentation in the or small person is able to bid at the auction areas concerned. First of all, I do not like and get a lease, even at a high price, because the word "fragmentation"; nor do the people he gets it at a good interest rate of 5 per cent who have been able to settle on the land over a term of 10 years. That seems a under the policy of the Lands Department long time for somebody to pay off the price over the years-not only under this Govern­ of a piece of urban land where he can ment but also under previous Governments settle down with his family. The officers of -of taking back the major grazing leases the Lands Department would know that a and dividing them into suitable living areas. tremendous number of people in Queensland Those people would not have had an oppor­ are still doing this today. They have pur­ tunity to settle on the land had it not chased land in the past 10 years and are been for the type of legislation we have had trying to pay off the purchase price. in this State, and they certainly would not The one thing saving them is that, in accept the use of the word "fragmentation". purchasing this land, they are not subject That legislation gave them the opportunity to the exorbitant interest rates of 11-t per cent that they wanted. through banks or 15 or 20 per cent through It is unfortunate that in the areas that we hire-purchase companies. I sincerely hope are discussing now so many of these pieces that the provisions in the Bill do not open of land are owned by companies. I think the way for this Government or the Land the Minister said that these provisions were Administration Commission to become just being welcomed by banks and brokers. We another money-grubbing money-lender within certainly know that they would welcome the community and put up its interest rate them, because they will now have the oppor­ from 5 per cent to 11-t per cent or 15 tunity of making a little money out of Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 629 graziers from whom they now make nothing. Mr. CASEY: The honourable member They also look upon these provisions as a for Balonne interjects, "Outside the 20 in. means of obtaining control of other areas in rainfall belt." The provisions introduced by Queensland that they do not now control. the Minister cover lands other than those With leasehold provisions, they know that outside the 20 in. rainfall belt. when land is forfeited to them they will not There are many other provisions. The obtain the renewal of the lease. It will go Minister mentioned an alteration in the way to someone else under those circumstances. in which companies can apply for land in This is how empires such as the Stanbroke Queensland. I certainly hope that this does not again open the door for international empire have been built up in Queensland. purchases of leasehold land in Queensland, I could dwell at great lengths this evening or for things I saw a couple of years ago, on the way in which the Stanbroke organisa­ such as large advertisements in the "Fiji tion acquired so much land through Wes­ Times" and newspapers in South-east Asia of tern Queensland and in the Gulf area, and land for sale in Queensland. People were what is now done with the land. I could also told in those advertisements, "This is your speak of the way in which that organisation opportunity to buy in a developing State. controls cattle prices, and of the strong Come over and buy land here." Queensland influence that it has on wool prices and the real ,estate interests were not involved. Some general economy of grazing areas. This is of the bigger real estate companies in a very important matter to consider when Sydney and in Melbourne were advertising amendll?ents are being made to any Acts in newspapers in the South Pacific area and concermng the land. When we are altering in South-east Asia for investors to come and any type of land tenure, we have to look take control of land in Queensland. behind it to see who will benefit from it. Is It should be remembered, Mr. Hewitt, that the benefit to go to the small battlers or he who owns the land owns the country, the graziers who want pieces of land' for and we must look hard at that when we their sons? Is the benefit to go to young think of opening the door and allowing in fellows who want to go on the land? Or registered companies, rather than only com­ is it to go to the vast empires that we have panies that are registered in Queensland. As seen in the West and that are a great deal the law now stands, only certain companies stronger than old Kidman and Tyson were in Queensland may own leasehold tenures. in days gone by? The proposal now before the Committee will open the door to the whole gamut of There are many aspects of the Land Act international enterprises wishing to acquire that need consideration when we start to land in Queensland. If they acquire it on a think about the shortage of land. There is leasehold basis, in no time at all they will insufficient land now surrounding urban areas freehold it and control major portions of and set aside under special lease provisions the lands of this State. The only way we to be made available for public purposes at can control our land is through the Land the end of the normal 30 years' tenure that Act, and I suggest that we must look very has been referred to by the Minister. There closely at the consequences of ~he Bill. have been pieces of land held under special lease_s ?f 30 years close to fast-developing Mr. ROW (Hinchinbrook) (8.26 p.m.): I provmcml areas. As those areas have wish to refer mainly to the part of the Bill developed, those who held this land have that relates to the proposed amendments to under the new policies, been able to obtai~ the land tenure provisions of the Act. The freehold tenure. They have then been able first part of the Bill is of a machinery nature to subdivide the land and make substantial and does not call for much debate, and I profits from it. The local authorities in those certainly support it. areas now face great problems in acquiring I was very interested to hear the remarks sufficient land for parks and other recrea­ of other honourable members about the land tional purposes. tenure provisions of the Bill, and particularly the reference by the honourable member for When we are considering the Land Act, we Mackay, in his closing remarks, to his fear have to see that some provision is made under that land may come into the possession of which such special lease areas in close large institutions that would not be inclined proximity to areas that are expected to to carry out practices that are most desirable develop into urban areas are not allowed to in the interests of the people of this State. be freeholded, but are retained in perpetuity All I can suggest to him is that, over the or under special leases that may be renewed development period, there have been some for perhaps 10 years. They should be main­ very clear examples of large institutions tained under some suitable tenure so that accepting their responsibilities. Indeed, they have been responsible for giving Queensland they can ultimately be handed over for many of its developed industries. public purposes. Although there may be many and varied There is one final point that I should like opinions on the question of land tenure and to make. on what is desirable in particular circum­ stances, I do not think a perfect system will Mr. Neal: Outside the 20 in. rainfall belt. ever be found for anything. I also believe in 630 Land Act and Another (10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill the old philosophy that, no matter what sys­ a living area. It is a vicious, dog-chasing­ tem is in operation, if the people are good tail type of circle. Unless we are prepared people, the system will work; if they are bad to legislate to cope with changing circum­ and irresponsible people, the system will fail. stances, we simply will not have people I think that the people of Queensland have surviving in the rural areas. It is useless proved over several generations that that is to propound a land philosophy that does basically a good belief, and I think it is a not fit the circumstances. I believe the cir­ belief that is held by honourable members cumstances were very much to the fore on both sides of the Chamber. in the framing of this legislation. I was interested to hear the honourable We are basically dealing with people. member for Nudgee refer to his interest in When we talk about the conditions under the Bill as it relates to people. I think it is which people are obliged to occupy land in fundamental that honourable members should Queensland, we have to remember that they bear in mind continually the question, "How are not occupying land entirely for their can we best serve the people in the condi­ own benefit. This State is largely depend­ tions or circumstances prevailing or in the ent upon the efforts of people who are pre­ geographical situation in Queensland?" The pared to do pioneering work. In the develop­ geographical situation is probably the most ment of the rural regions, the concept of pertinent factor of all in this Sate, with its pioneering still largely exists. We have had vast areas. poor communications, remoteness, rather unbalanced development in Queens­ dry conditions and so on. From time to land. Our fertile coastal strip with its time we find ourselves obliged to cater for capital city and provincial city areas has all these factors in legislation such as this. developed rather rapidly leaving behind both The fortunes of people vary so much in in social amenities and in financial opportun­ times of economic fluctuation that I think it ities the State's rural areas. So we must would be virtually impossible to cater for accept that we have to improve land tenure the best interests of the people in all cir­ opportunities for those people who are pre­ cumstances and at all times. However I pared to accept a less desirable way of life believe that the Government has alw~ys and actually produce what for many genera­ shown foresight and m"de a very genuine tions have been our major exports. Only effort to act in the best interests of the in very recent times has there been anything people of this State, and I think that the approaching an equal balance between manu­ land legislation and its administration has factured and rural exports. In view of the been the most important of the bases on fluctuations in commercial fortunes we cannot which enterprises in this State have been foresee the time where one will be more founded. important than the other. Therefore we I am a little concerned at the attitude of have to protect them both. a couple of members of l!he Opposition who Reference has been made to the fear spoke early in the debate. It is rather regret­ of lining the pockets of wealthy segments of table that they attempted to turn it into the community. I do not think anyone something of a political campaign. No doubt has taken into consideration the effect of they are still wrapped up in the dramatic taxation and various social levies that are events that affected their party's fortunes at imposed upon those whose incomes rise as the last State elections. I am disappointed a result of their own efforts. All these that they tried to turn the debate into a contributions go back to the benefit and wel­ personal, vindictive attack on political philo­ fare of all the people. sophies instead of getting down to l!he meat of the Bill. The acquisition of land in any circum­ stances calls for some payment to the State. People in this State who have been obliged Nobody can obtain a block of land without by the decision of their forebears to go paying for it in one way or another. If into remote areas to live and pull their he leases it, he has to pay rent and local weight in society deserve consideration, par­ authority rates; if he purchases it on free­ ticularly those in areas west of the 20 in. hold tenure, he must buy it from the Crown, rainfall belt. It is very pertinent to say and not for a mere pittance; he must pay that there is no more room for fragmenta­ a price based on a valuation, and in some tion or subdivision of living areas in that instances the price might be more than he region. can afford to pay. Having acquired the When the concept of living areas is being land, he must earn his living by producing taken into consideration, no-one would have goods. Furthermore he has to meet the had more experience than the honourable heavy quality demands that are made upon member for Mackay and possibly myself him. For example, our rural industries have and others in the Chamber with experience to meet quality demands made on them by in the sugar industry. The sugar industry customers not only overseas but also in is based on land about 99 per cent of which Australia. No producer who does not have is held under freehold tenure. In that security of tenure is capable of meeting those industry, over a very short period of time demands. All these matters are fundamental the concept of a living area changes very to this legislation. rapidly. What was a living area in the sugar I do not want to engage in undue repeti­ industry, say, five years ago is no longer tion but, following other speakers as I do, Land Act and Another (10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill 631

I find it difficult to speak about any matter and the benefits that flow from his efforts that has not already been touched upon. are advantageous to the State and the com­ I must however, stress the risks involved. munity. In the long run this is the best Whether they are taken by the individual way to view our land tenure proposals. or by the State, they must be accepted. I heartily support the provisions of the Bill. Of course, they fluctuate from time to time, so I do not see that we can arrive at a Mr. ELUOTT (Cunningham) (8.42 p.m.): better solution than that projected in In the light of the line of attack made by this legislation. The Minister's committee the honourable member for Archerfield in has put its best foot forward in framing introducing many red herrings before being the Bill for the benefit of all concerned. cut down to size, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to take part in this debate. The provisions relating to probate duty He might have achieved something if he will be applauded by all honourable mem­ had talked about the Bill. However, his bers. I do not think anyone would disagree approach was typical. He tried to discredit with my contention that the level of exemp­ the National Party in this legislative area tion from probate duty was at one time quite acceptable. After all, probate duty is a of land tenure. recognised means of obtaining revenue. How­ I wish to dwell mainly on the land tenure ever, the situation has been reached where amendments contained in the Bill, designed to many heirs to estates, particularly widows give lessees of grazing selections the choice with families, are financially embarrassed of converting to freehold or to grazing home­ by the impact of probate duty. In fact, stead perpetual leases if they do not sub­ many are nearly forced out of business. I stantially exceed a living area. While I agree am pleased to see that this matter has with the Bill, I wish to make a few points, received consideration in the Bill. It is particularly about freehold land tenure. the intention of this Government to eliminate The bogy that has been brought out about probate duty gradually, so I hope we will vast aggregations disappears when we look continue to work in that direction until it at the tenure system. Firstly, on the freehold­ is abolished. tenure system Opposition members say that The honourable member for Nudgee vast holdings will be aggregated by these expressed concern at what he terms the aggre­ companies. I speak very strongly against gation of small properties. This gets back that assertion because the living-area quali­ to my previous remarks about fluctuations fications very strongly protect us from aggre­ in living standards. I do not think the gation. If we allowed companies to aggregate aggregation of small properties can always large areas of freehold land, we should be avoided, particularly if industries based be doing ourselves and the whole of Queens­ on small properties are to survive. In many land a tremendous disservice. Not only would instances the aggregation of small properties we affect land holding, but also we would has resulted in a better rationalisation of work to the detriment of the whole com­ facilities and finance. The administration munity. and management of properties frequently In areas where the owner-operator con­ benefits to some extent from such aggre­ cept is practical-and let us be practical; gation. This will be limited by natural fac­ I am talking about freehold land-a tremend­ tors. The fear that multi-national organi­ ous community spirit permeates the society. sations will take over all our land is ground­ Everyone in the community takes part in all less because there are provisions in the intent its functions-not just the older members of the legislation preventing corporations of families but the children as well. That from jeopardising the welfare and land applies to balls, shows, and charitable efforts rights of the people of the State. Members alike. At balls, for instance, little children of the Opposition may rest assured that the run around and play on the dance floor. efforts of the Land Administration Commis­ In the country everyone is involved in com­ sion wiil be aimed at guarding against this. munity activities. What is the popular concept of land It is my belief that that type of participa­ tenure in the minds of the people of tion is lacking in ,the big cities, par­ Queensland? It is all very well to propound ticularly in the more unfortunate ghetto philosophies aimed at guarding against areas and others of poor living stan­ aggregations of land by speculators, and dards. Country areas lead the way to say that everyone should get a fair in the development of family life. share of what is available. Everyone in Wealth does not enter into it. That has this State wants to own his own piece of no relevance whatsoever. It is not a case dirt, wherever it is. The most successful of the haves and the have-nots. It is more land tenure is private ownership, whether a case of outlook and ability to adapt to it is the humble domestic household allot­ their situation. If it were a case of the ment, a small farm or a large stud. Private haves and the have-nots, country people ownership generates far greater potential for these days would come within the latter development and production by reason of category; but in other ways, such as incentive. Man is the master of his own in community spirit, country people are fate when he has responsibility and reward more fortunate than city dwellers. They for effort. He does not care how great suffer hardships, of course; but they have a the effort so long as he reaps the reward, freedom of choice to go out there in the 632 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill first place and, unless they become over­ the Channel country. Mention has been committed, they do not have to stay there. made of the Stanbroke Pastoral Company. On the other hand, city people who fall on As I have just indicated, I am not here to bad times are able to go to the country and defend big corporations. But we must be start life afresh when new jobs become realistic enough to ~;ealise there are certain available. situations where large companies, becaus'e I believe that this system is most important. of their size and their ability to weather the We must fight tooth and nail to make sure Veiy harsh conditions that prevail for long that it is not destroyed. If it is allowed to periods, are able to stand up where others be destroyed, the very social problems that would fail. This is purely and simply because have permeated life in the larger cities will of their resources. This will be the case in find their way into society in the country certain situations, but only in those cases. areas and provincial centres. I disagree with the extension of the system Mr. Melloy: Isn't that more relevant to a to any other area where it can be avoided. Bill on family life? Mr. Casey: Many families in the Channel Country sold out to companies such as Mr. ELLIOTT: It is very relevant to this Stanbroke. Bill because it is all part of the land tenure system. which can definitely be affected by it. Mr. ELLIOIT: This is true because, as I Let me deal with the owner-operators said, they could not make a go of it. I am versus the corporate farm concept. Before not against big families holding large areas coming here, as well as being a farmer any more than I am against companies I engaged in consulting work. I have seen holding large areas. However, if aggregation a lot of large corporate farms. There is is permitted further inland where there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the good agricultural land, 1Jhe communities and corporate farm system will never take over towns will be destroyed. from the family farm concept. The idea The Bill provides also for an increase of "get big or get out" is absolute rot. We from $12,000 to $50,000 in the amount of cannot allow it to happen. We must exemption in a probated estate. This is most fight it at every juncture because it is my necessary. As the honourable member for belief that. once the person who is running Somerset said, this will have no effect on the property does not believe in what he the amount of revenue the Government is doing but is doing it only for remunerative receives. It is simply a procedure to speed reward in the form of a salary, he does up the finalisation of an estate. It is a very not have his heart in it and will not do humanitarian step and, in the light of infla­ the same job. He will not get the produc­ tion, I believe it is most important. tion that flows from the family farm concept. Let us make sure we never allow that I do not wish to take up any more time. situation to develop. I know that other honourable members will cover other aspects of the Bill but I felt Mr. MeHoy~ That is what you are doing. very strongly about the particular matters Mr. ELLIOTT: No. That is wrong. I am I have dealt with. talking about freehold land. A ceiling has been set beyond which corporations will not Mr. HARTWIG (Callide) (8.53 p.m.): Like be allowed to go. The Bill contains a provision many other Land Bills introduced by the requiring .th~ Minister's consent on a living National-Liberal Government in the past 18 area. Limits are set beyond which they or 20 years, this Bill will be of benefit and cannot go. The honourable member is right an asset to people occupying land in various off the beam. areas of this great State of Queensland. Years ago, under another type of Govern­ I would also like to see the freehold land ment, some 6 per cent of the land in tenure system examined from the point of Queensland was freeholded. I am very pleased view of private ownership and the feeling to say that at the end of 1973 it had been that an owner has for his land. He looks increased to something like 14.9 per cent. after it. For example, he takes positive steps to prevent soil erosion. Tenants on land are I am a third generation Australian, of there only for the purpose of exploiting it. which I am very proud. I have known the That is why we must stick to freehold land frustrations and worries of a grazing home­ tenur~. If we al.low people merely to stead lease with a special tenure. The lease expl01t land, they will destroy it and it will was originally for 21 years. I remember not be there for future generations. We when I was on "Tellebang" and had seven must be very, very careful not to allow that years to run. Mr. Foley issued a new lease to happen. A man on freehold land tenure for 14 years. I was a third generation looks after his property. He knows that if Australian with 14 years of security. With he does not, it will not be there for future a lease for a period as short as that, land­ generati<;ms; he will not have the opportunity owners have not either the capacity or the to pass It on to those who follow him. This incentive to improve their properties. We is most important. were having a period of stagnation and, to a great extent, a period of non-productivity . . Opposition members spoke about aggrega­ twn. We must be realistic. We must con­ In 1967, the freehold area stood at sider some of the Gulf country and some of 37,672,000 acres. In 1971, four years later, Land Act and Another (10 APRIL 1975) Act Amendment Bill 633 an area of 60,026,000 acres was either periods of drought and semi-drought. Some held under freehold tenure or was in the honourable members, particularly those on process of conversion. the Opposition benches, have the idea that The general policy on leasehold tenure people engaged in rural ~nd primary industries is to make each property sufficiently large make a fortune whenever they have a to permit a reasonable living to be made couple of good seasons. They do not think from it after providing a reserve for bad about the years of drought and semi-drought, seasons, and to make the lease sufficiently or about periods of great depression such long to encourage the lessee to make per­ as we are now seeing in the beef-cattle manent improvements commensurate with the industry. capacity of the property. That is what lease­ I remember that a little over 18 months hold tenure is all about. Many leases are ago the Housewives' Association called for subject to conditions of improvement such meatless days because the price of meat was as land clearing, ringbarking, water facilities, too high. I admit that it was too high. The and eradication of animal pests and noxious situation has now been reversed and beef weeds. In some instances, leases are subject producers are getting virtually nothing for to personal residence. their product, but we do not hear any support from that same Housewives' The Queensland and Commonwealth Gov­ Association for their sisters in the country ernments introduced a brigalow land develop­ whose children are literally starving. I ment scheme which saw the development believe that city people could do a great deal of approximately 13,000,000 acres of brigalow to assist the beef industry at this time by land in the State of Queensland. This has promoting the sale and consumption of beef. brought about a considerable increase in I spoke to the Housewives' Association beef cattle numbers. In 1973, for instance, recently, and I am pleased to see that it is there were 9,190,067 beef cattle in Queens­ taking steps to promote the sale of beef. It is land. Twelve months later, the figure was to be hoped that it continues to do so. 9,486,017, which represented an increase of 296,000 in that period. The question of foreign ownership has been mentioned in the debate, and I should If we look at the dairying industry, we like to give my thoughts on it. Since I first find a pathetic story. I think that this is entered this Chamber, I have been concerned relevant to the early subdivision of the about foreign ownership. In New South land, when farmers were put on areas Wales one American owns more than that were far too small and on which they 11,000,000 acres. Thank God we do not literally starved. With 200 or 300 acres they have anything like that in Queensland! If had no chance of providing a living for we are to be fair dinkum about restricting their families and making a profit. In 1943, foreign ownership, I believe that action must there were 23,000 dairy farms in Queensland. be taken across the board, and it is incum­ Thirty-one years later, in 1974, there were bent upon the Federal Government to see 4,500 dairy farms in the State. Therein lies that it applies throughout the nation. I cer­ a tale. tainly do not want to see all our land taken I feel that the reason for this situation up by foreign interests. is to be found in the bad policies of earlier Let me refer to Thailand, where peasants Governments as shown in the closer settle­ are now farming on six, eight or 10 acres of ment schemes of the mid-1920's and early ground. As some honourable members saw 1930's. They certainly brought about closer round Chainat, the Thai Government is settlement but the areas were totally legislating to enable people who have inadequate. It has been proven over the occupied land and worked for landlords­ years that those policies were completely and, after all, the Government is nothing wrong. The areas were not living areas, more than the landlord of leasehold land­ and the farmers did not have sufficient to own a small area. security of tenure. I am pleased to see that Mr. Casey: They have first to take the the amendments proposed in the Bill will land from the absentee landlord. do much to provide security of tenure, with a capacity to make a living. That is the Mr. HARTWIG: That is what I said. story of leasehold land and land development. The peasants have only a lease; they do not own it. They have to obtain security of I should like to say that the Government tenure. That is what we see happening in has given consideration to the whole of this State, where the Government is trying to Queensland. There is the coastal belt, where give landholders security of tenure. They are there is intensive farming and dairying. There entitled to it because they have worked hard are the Central Highlands, where there is for anything they have obtained from the grain-growing and sheep and cattle raising. soil. In the arid and semi-arid western areas, I am concerned about foreign ownership. there are sheep. In my opinion, anybody who comes here Climatic conditions, too, are a factor that from another country should indicate to the has to be taken into consideration. From Government what he wants to do. The time to time erratic rainfall causes great Government should then decide what area stress and frustration, and it takes many that person requires for the project. It landholders years to recover from long should not allow people to go out and take 22 634 Land Act and Another [10 APRIL 1975] Act Amendment Bill up thousands and thousands of acres of going to happen. But a run of a few land. I am sure that such a system would years of good prices accompanied by a run work very satisfactorily for all concerned. of good seasons could reverse the thinking I commend the Minister for introducing of people in authority so that they could the Bill. ' make the decision to cut the areas down. A former member of this Parliament made Mr. GLASSON (Gregory) (9.4 p.m.): I the statement that if he had 20,000 acres congratulate the Minister and all those res­ in the Longreach district he would be a ponsible for the drafting of the amendments very happy man. He later became Minister proposed in the Bill. After listening to the for Lands. He very quickly learned that speeches made by some honourable mem­ at the time he made that statement there bers in this debate, I think it is obvious that was a combination of a boom and good they do not understand the actual implica­ seasons. At that time only 20,000 acres of tions of the proposals, otherwise the con­ country was required, but not much later cern they expressed would not be as great 60,000 acres was not eno_ugh to keep any­ as it appeared to be. one. Even a person wrth 160,000 acres Enough has been said about the conditions would have gone broke. of Land Court members being brought into The honourable member for Cunningham line with those of industrial commissioners, referred to the fallacy of the statement "Get so I will not touch on those provisions. But big or get out" which was made by a let me refer to the freeholding provisions man who held a very responsible position in under which areas of country known as this nation. That is the greatest fallacy of grazing selections or grazing farms can be all time. My own experience proves that converted to freehold tenure. Living areas because I got into the greatest mess in my vary in size. life. A landholder who has a debt hang­ Since the introduction of the legislation ing over his head and who is faced with in the early 1960's very little freeholding interest and redemption payments hits the has actually taken place in the 20 in. rain­ deck after two bad seasons. The State fall area. Those who have taken advantage would benefit more from one well-managed of freehold tenure are still paying for their small living area than it would from three land. Freeholding is not just an automatic properties that are not looked after properly. step that is taken overnight. The land is The members of the Minister's committee paid for over the term of the lease. Many are totally opposed to any take-over by great of those who have taken advantage of the corporations of this State's land. If the conversion to freehold tenure have to some Bill does not contain a provision to prevent extent regretted their decision. Once a per­ such take-over, it most certainly will get the son takes steps to freehold his land he knock from me. loses the privileges or concessions that are The honourable member for Nudgee has extended to the holder of leasehold land claimed that Government members will toe during a time of disaster, such as a drought, the line and do what the Premier tells us when the Lands Department allows half to do. I told the people of Gregory in my rent to leaseholders. It is an indisputable fact policy speech that I would cross the floor that in the 20 in. rainfall area a person lives and vote with the Opposition on any measure with drought and expects a drought on an that reacts to their detriment, and I will stick average of three times a decade. by my promise. As I have heard it said tonight by various Mr. Melloy: We shall see. speakers, it is only fair that the person who is prepared to take the risk in the 20 in. Mr. GLASSON: Indeed we shall. rainfall area should know that he has what The raising of the exemption level from he can term his own piece of land. Land $12,000 to $50,000 is a common-sense move is our greatest national asset. I have seen by the department and the Minister. I con­ improvements on land fall to pieces towards gratulate them on their introduction of this the end of the lease period. Leaseholders provision. fear that they may lose their lease and consequently do not make further improve­ Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Leader ments or maintain existing improvements. of the House) (9.12 p.m.), in reply: In the That was very evident on the old properties absence of the Minister for Lands, notes before they were cut up. have been taken of the suggestions and prop­ ositions put forward aJ> well as of the On the bigger holdings improvements questions that have been asked by members. would fall right back as the term of the I have no doubt that he will reply at the lease drew to a close. The leeway had to second-reading stage. In the meantime, I be made up when the new tenant came in. commend the Bill to the Committee. It is a retrograde step to allow our national asset to deteriorate. Now that the land has Motion (Mr. Hedges) agreed to. been cut down to living areas the same Resolution reported. thing is going to happen at the end of FIRST READING the 30-year term because leaseholders will fear that they are going to lose their land. Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. I do not think that any of us in our sane Hedges, read a first time. moments would ever believe that that was The House adjourned at 9.15 p.m.