Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details [Compiled as a token of gratitude to Ken Knight]
Message 23043 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All, The intention is to provide a body of material that will be of value to all, whether the subject is new to you or you have had the benefit of many years of study and practice. It is hoped that all members will contribute. Questions are of great importance, they give those with much greater understanding than myself the opportunity to help push the study along the main road and the byways that will appear; one road appearing as many, as it were..
I have divided the topic into two sections. The first will focus on the context and understanding of the Vedas, the second will concentrate upon the use of mAyA in the actual texts of the Vedas. Inevitably, the first section had me writing too much but I have left plenty of 'gaps' for others to contribute. The second section will be much more text based and will depend upon your insights. I foresee the situation arising when the two sections could overlap although I intend beginning the second, and more important section, after about ten days. Postings for the first section will come under the following headings, and, I would suggest, be posted every couple of days as they are meant to build up a background of information. Any points arising from a posting can continue to be developed as the others are also presented : 1) Intro:..personal as well as to the topic 2) The Vedas: Infinity and authority 3) Understanding the hymns 4) Context of the poets: the power and the glory 5) 'That one and the many' 6) Yaska, Vedangas and understanding the hymns 7) Explanation through division 8) Some key words 9) Book and Web-site list ( this is ongoing and will have grown by the end as I hope you will all contribute titles and websites. )
At the moment I have written the first two postings of the second section. As I do not want to overload your Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details mail boxes with lengthy hymns that you can easily download for yourselves, I will experiment a bit with the best way to study texts on-line.
Finally, my junior school teachers used to hit me with a leather strap on a daily basis in order to slow me down and make me check my work. This was not a successful method of teaching as I still make many errors for which I apologise in advance.
Thank you for your attention,
Ken
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.' ======Message 23101 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All, The following continues what I hope is a slow introduction for those with little previous reading of the Vedas as well as providing some challenge for the experts to take up.
Understanding the Hymns:
'The Waters' Son hath risen, and clothed in lightning ascended up into the curled cloud's bosom; And bearing with them his supremest glory the Youthful ones, gold-coloured, move around him.' RV II.35.9 apaáM nápaad aá hy ásthaad upásthaM jihmaánaam uurdhvó vidyútaM vásaanaH | tásya jyéSTham mahimaánaM váhantiir híraNyavarNaaH pári yanti yahviíH ||
The language of the Rgveda is mantra. It reveals its truth in its own way rather than have our intellects scramble away at meaning and imagery. By all means though, let us proceed with such scrambling as it is a better use of the intellect than idly dreaming about some future personal fear or pleasure.
The above stanza and hymn contains imagery of myths known to its original listeners while it also describes the processes of the appearance of the 'Many out of the One'. It is to do with The Word, vAk. It is to do with the appearance of inspiration or Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details intuition of truth which transcends and dissolves the clouds of ignorance we have allowed to trap us in delusion. More of this hymn will be posted in the future.
In order to help us to appreciate the contexts of the hymns we may take as a first step a consideration of what may be termed the 'inner and outer spaces'. The 'outer space' is that filled with the objects of name and form that can be empirically studied and the resultant knowledge shared and examined. The 'inner space', the world of insight, imagination and thought is less easily accessed because the individual intentions and cultural background colour the expression of any essential inspiration. It is this 'space' we need to access in our efforts to understand the hymns. We best serve the aim to hear the 'sound' of the Vedas by allowing unnecessary activity, the attachment to long-held concepts, to fall back into stillness.
The RgVeda is the outpouring of religious experience, in and through that inner space and its parallel in the outer space; expressed through the imagery of its traditional knowledge held in the chanted mantras and enacted through ritual. This imagery, with its mythical tales as a background, is known to the speaker and audience of its time but inaccessible for most of us today. However, once an essential insight has been revealed the richness of the original imagery can be studied and experienced afresh so that its qualities can be valued in their own beauty, a few rays of which may enlighten our own understanding today. The search for the centre of that 'inner space' leads us to an enquiry into what we may term as the 'heart and mind' of the individual whether in the Vedic or our contemporary contexts. This search is clearly in the philosophical teaching sections of the Vedas, which are interspersed with the directions for ritual practices. At the centre of these teachings is a vision of the fluency of The Word emerging from the Sun. Frequently the imagery of waters and rivers is related to the source of speech in our 'centre of intuition': samyák sravanti saríto ná dhénaa antár hRdaá mánasaa puuyámaanaaH ||
'Together flow the rivers (of speech), like rivulets, purified within by the heart/mind.'RV. IV.58.6 Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
For both the first Rishis, the later poets and the exegetes of the Upanishads, there was a greater awareness, possibly shared by the non-literate peoples of our present times, of a flow and connection between our outer and inner worlds of experience than we have in our literate, more individualistically self-aware societies. This flow proceeds eternally in a greater, limitless ocean or space; a 'mysterious abyss' to use the Vedic image.
'Some floods unite themselves and others join them; the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse. On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' RV II.35.3 Please use www.flaez.ch for the Sanskrit and Monier Williams dictionary to try to get a better translation of this verse suitable to your own understanding.
In the non-dual philosophy of the Vedas, this flow is a continuum rather than an interaction between a particle and its enclosing energy or power. We may use as an illustration the classic image of the space within the pot. There appears to be a separation by the clay of the 'within' and 'outside' spaces but we know also that there is space within the molecular structure of the pot; the space is not contained. And so when we read the hymns we need to be aware of three 'spaces'; the inner, the outer and the all-pervading/embracing mysterious abyss in which all are interconnected or rather inter-fluent. Although we may name them as different spaces for the purposes of conversation, we acknowledge at the same time that such enumeration is relevant only in dualistic thought. We need to understand and apply this as we encounter the hymns and their imagery of the Sun, Dawn, Oceans and Cows etc. When the poet speaks of the Sun rising this is not a simple simile or metaphor but a unity of experience, of a sun rising in the outer space, of the inner sun rising in the intuitive heart/mind and the unveiling of that Sun that pervades and transcends all. It is through the very sound of the mantra that this continuum is realised. That is why we need to hear the mantras.
I will return later to the understanding of three 'levels' when I introduce Yaska.
'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.' Message 23115 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste Ken-ji
What a pleasure to have you on this group! I didn't realise until you started this RgVeda postings that there could be such an enormous work on the RgVeda available on the web.
Well, please advise me. What is the quickest way to get at the RV translations on the web? Your reference: http://flaez.ch/rv/ is of course wonderful. For every word I click on the text it takes me to synonyms, as well as other usages of the same word in RV (Concordance). It is all marvellous! But still to get the total meaning of a rik, is there a total translation available somewhere else? Or am I still to use the same reference and wade further? For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the 6th rik, I am interested in the 3rd rik: catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé shiirSé saptá hástaasaH asya trídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH mártyaan aá vivesha.
This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda (which is the only veda I have ever touched). So I would like to know the full meaning, though I know the meanings of some of the words, the total purport evades me.
Also another observation. The numbers that you quote for your RV quotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I go to some other website, the numbers do not match. Is there any correspondence- matching? Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most heartily. In fact I would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if it is likely to divert your audience -- though in beginning it, my opinion was that it would be very light compared to the RV discussion, and probably would meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.
PraNAms to all students of RgVeda. Profvk Message 23117 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
Namaste Professor, Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once such a meaning is known there is no need to divide it up into words for the purpose of getting at the meaning. Except for the purposes of teaching. However, we are here together trying to get at the meanings of these mantras relevant to our present state of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean that disrespectfully but speak as I understand the 'authority' of the Vedas. www.flaez.ch is the best site that I know of for the Vedas. The Wilson and Griffith translations are useful for a start but rarely do they penetrate to the heart of the Rks. May I be bold enough to suggest that I would like us to do this during this study. Later on I hope we can do more close text study together. Even if we can together, with common mind in one common place, understand one Rk in such a way we will have been truly blessed. If you look at some of the other sites that I have suggested you will find some Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details single sUktas translated but they are rarely the ones I want personally. I know that there is one American academic who is attempting to translate the ten books of the Rgveda. We must wish her good luck for her next few lifetimes and hope that the gods take pity on her.
> For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the > 6th rik, I am > interested in the 3rd rik: > catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé > shiirSé saptá > hástaasaH asya > trídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH > mártyaan aá > vivesha. > > This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda > (which is the only > veda I have ever touched). So I would like to know > the full meaning, > though I know the meanings of some of the words, the > total purport > evades me.
I do refer to this Rk later on in a future posting but I will have a look later this evening and post something...... we have a meditation group here at my home and people have started to arrive, so apologies for cutting this mail short. > > Also another observation. The numbers that you quote > for your RV > quotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I > go to some > other website, the numbers do not match. Is there > any correspondence- > matching?
This is a problem with the Griffith numbering and gave me all sorts of problems when I first started looking at this topic. Sunderji knows more of the reasons for this problem. The flaez.ch numbering accords with most books. > > In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most > heartily. In fact > I would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if > it is likely to > divert your audience -- though in beginning it, my > opinion was that > it would be very light compared to the RV > discussion, and probably Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
> would meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.
I had a group study of Shata-shlokI last year and I look forward to following it with you. There have been many people joining this site recently who are newish to advaita which is why I have been trying to present this June topic carefully, step by step. I am sure that people will find their way to that which suits them best but I would hope that some can find time for all the postings.
Om sri ram jai ram jai jai ram
Ken Knight Message 23119 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, Further to the last posting and before I post the next of my pre-written sections, I thought that the following would be of interest. It is a small part of an essay 'Vedic Exegesis' published in 1937 by Shrimat Anirvan. It is a beautiful statement and accords with my own understanding and what I am trying to present for you in my own way. At the end he refers to an epilogue to Yaska's Nirukta which is not included in my version of Sarup's translation of the Nirukta. Therefore I cannot confirm its accuracy and would welcome advice from anyone who has found this epilogue in some version of the nirukta.
''The problem of Vedic exegesis then is the problem of reviving the spirit and re-creating the inner experience of the atmosphere in which the mantras took shape. Mere intellectual ingenuity and superficial judgment will not help us, because here we are dealing with things of the spirit where an interpretation can hope to be true only when understanding has come through spiritual communion and insight. We shall have to take our stand on the two postulates of faith advanced by the ritualists, taking them in a slightly different form: instead of the eternality and the non-personal origination of the Word, we shall have to speak of the eternality and the non-personal character of Truth. It may be debatable whether material history is the expression of an original Idea; but it is an Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details indubitable fact that spiritual history is always so. 'It is of the One Existence that yearning hearts speak in diverse ways', has said a Vedic seer Note from KK ( this is a rather individual interpretation of RV.I.164.45) ; and this is true not only in an abstract way, but in a concrete form also. Like the mystic asvattha tree 'with its root above and the branches below', the Vedic tradition, in a broad sense, stands at the very source of almost all forms of Indian spiritual cults. And the interpretation of this tradition can be attempted with best results if we do not place the Vedas on the isolated heights of the past, but with a total vision of the present retrace our steps to the roots discovering, with a penetrating insight, the links at every step. But this movement in breadth must be supplemented by a movement in depth. One has to discover the master-idea that has been behind this historical development. And here, it is the Spirit that must question the Spirit in that stillness of 'the ocean where the womb of the Word lies sunk in the depths of the Waters' RV X.125.7 And, in this connection, nothing can be more illuminating than the following remarks of Yãska in his epilogue to the Nirukta: 'Concerning the mantra.s, none can claim to have perceived their truths if one is not a seer and a spiritual energizer. . . When seers passed beyond, men asked the gods, "Who are going to be seers for us?" To them the gods gave reason as the seer. And hence, whatever one speaks with reason, following the track of the Word, becomes as good as the utterance of a seer. . . . This knowledge is a form of revealed and reasoned illumination; its farthest end is to be realized by spiritual energizing.' Nirukta XIII.12,13.
Ken Knight Message 23122 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: Ananda Wood
Professor V. Krishnamurthy wrote (June 2nd):
"...to get the total meaning of a rik, is there a total translation available somewhere else?"
I've found the following URL useful: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/#vedas or http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/ Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Ananda ======Message 23123 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
Namaste,
The computer is still convalescing after the 'virus' attack, but is still not out of breath yet!
These two sites are worth a visit: http://www.vedah.com/org/index.asp http://www.sanskritweb.de/rigveda/
The Sringeri Math has published a 6-vol. (sanskrit-English) set, but not on-line.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23124 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "ymoharir"
Dear Respected Ken Ji:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once such a meaning is known there is no need to divide it up into words for the purpose of getting at the meaning. Except for the purposes of teaching. However, we are here together trying to get at the meanings of these mantras relevant to our present state of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean that disrespectfully but speak as I understand the 'authority' of the Vedas. <<<<<<<<<<<<
"TRUE" Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
One can almost never have a "TOTAL" meaning of any R^icaa (sliced with ten ways from Sunday). I believe this because each slice of understanding is limited by the limits of the ability of the interpreter himself. No matter who great scholastic that individual may be. It is still that limit. You can never go beyond your own mind, which in turn is limited by your own "buddhi" as sharpened by your personal training.
That is why we have the concept of "brahma" as "expanding Universe" (not just EXPANDED UNIVERSE). You can never-ever know it completely because it has already expanded by the time you arrive there to know it. Just a few pictures from Hubble Telescope gives hernia to the enquiring minds!!
Just my 1 and 1/4 Cents of thoughts !!
With best regards,
Dr. Yadu Message 23136 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All,
It has been said that 'he who knows only a single culture knows no culture, he who knows only one language knows no language.' We are bound by the limits of an intellect shaped by our individual contexts. Moksha demands that we seek ways to break down what Wordsworth called the 'prison-house forming around the growing boy'. This posting is intended to help those of us who have become enmeshed in urbanised cultures to connect with the vision of the Rgvedic poets.
Context of the poets; the power and the glory:
Yehudi Menuhin, in his autobiography, wrote that we in the West live a 'capsuled existence'; we eat capsuled food, live in capsules, are given capsuled education and participate in capsuled religion. For many of us our contemporary context is that of being enclosed, capsuled, cut off from the immediacy of power behind the physical manifestations around us and too frequently from the inspirational powers of our own inner creativity. We know how to flick a switch to Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details fill a room with light but we rarely seek the mechanism for a similar event in the mind. This arises from a deluded sense of 'being in control' of our environment or, at least, our striving to control the events of our daily lives and careers, even though the word 'career' is also applied to a horse out of control. Not for many of us is the exposure to the full force of the natural elements as we survive from day to day in our 'capsules' with their illusory, protecting structures. For some of us there may be periods of exposure to the raging seas that support our fragile boats, to the terrifying tempests that tear at our homes while we breathe the air, to the fire of the sun that gives us light and warmth but destroys as well when its lightning bolts strike, or to the noble earth which may support us as we cling to a rock-face and yet devours our homes when it opens up. In the Vedic times, as indeed for many others in our present times, the awareness of these apparently conflicting outer forces was immediate and awe-inspiring. This hymn in praise to VAyu uses a dust-storm to illustrate the might of this 'Holy and earliest born.' vaátasya nú mahimaánaM ráthasya rujánn eti stanáyann asya ghóSa | divispR'g yaaty aruNaáni kRNvánn utó eti pRthivyaá reNúm ásyan ||
'O the Wind's chariot, O its power and glory! Crashing it goes and hath a voice of thunder. It makes the regions red and touches heaven, and as it moves the dust of earth is scattered.' RgVeda 4.58.6
Power. This is a key word for us in this study. Power is to be observed manifesting in the glory and awe-inspiring qualities of the natural world. To understand and be part of that power would seem to be a sensible aim for the human being. So the Vedic mind reaches out beyond the practical task of harnessing the power of the wind to propel ships or water to help grow crops. The human intellect wants to reach out further than the immediate needs to understand and, if possible, harness the source of that power. By 'harness' I mean to draw that power to a focus in the 'outer space and inner spaces.' This intellect then takes the extraordinary step of examining itself to find that source of power. The following hymn clearly links the inner river of inspiration, powerfully sweeping away ignorance, with the immense power of the physical river named Sarasvati:
'sarasvati devanido ni barhaya prajAM vishvasya Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details bRsayasya mAyinaH | uta kSitibhyo.avanIravindo viSamebhyo asravo vAjinIvati || pra No devI sarasvatI vAjebhirvAjinIvatI | dhInAmavitryavatu || yastvA devi sarasvatyupabrUte dhane hite | indraM na vRtratUrye || tvaM devi sarasvatyavA vAjeSu vAjini | radA pUSeva naHsanim || uta syA naH sarasvatI ghorA hiraNyavartaniH | vRtraghnI vaSTi suSTutim || yasyA ananto ahrutastveSashcariSNurarNavaH | amashcarati roruvat||
'May the divine Sarasvati, rich in her wealth, protect us well, Furthering all our thoughts with might. Whoso, divine Sarasvati, invokes thee where the prize is set, Like Indra when he smites the foe. Aid us, divine Sarasvad, thou who art strong in wealth and power Like Pusan, give us opulence. Yea, this divine Sarasvati, terrible with her golden path, Foe-slayer, claims our eulogy. Whose limitless unbroken flood, swift-moving with a rapid rush, Comes onward with tempestuous roar.' RV VI.68.4-8
The natural elements, such as water, are the true powers that are instituted to govern by a transcendent will which manifests as the controlling power of Rta, not the men and women who are raised to government where they quickly become encapsuled in another layer of social conditioning. In Vedic times, the best of the kings and other leaders knew their place in the larger scheme of things, for the limitations of their power were all too evident in the vast environment that could so easily switch from nourishing friend to destructive enemy.
'Who lauds him (Indra), satisfies him, pays him worship? E'en the rich noble still hath found him mighty. With power, as when one moves his feet alternate, he makes the last precede, the foremost follow.' RV 6.47.15
Intuited knowledge comes as a flash bringing with it delight and beauty, it is an impulse to praise not that which is 'other' but that which is all-pervading, ever-present, that One, Tad Ekam. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
'Some floods unite themselves and others join them; the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse. On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' RV II.35.3
When trying to work with the intellect alone then the imagery of this hymn will give one meaning; by allowing the sunburst of inspiration, intuited in the heart, there will arise a flash that will fill that meaning with new wonders. The heart and intellect must work in harmony, a harmony which is their natural condition for they emerge from a single centre. So we continue this study, prostrating at the feet of the great Rishis from long ago, who may speak to us now through their mantras manifesting the divine will and order they perceived with their special vision. 'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may the Flood's Child accept my songs with favour. Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, for it is he who shall enjoy them. To him let us address the song well-fashioned from the heart. Shall he not understand it? The friendly Son of Waters, by the greatness of Godhead hath produced all things existing.' RV II.35.1-2 Message 23137 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, This posting was waiting to be introduced at the most appropriate time to underpin all the others. There are many other words that deserve special mention but I felt that these would be of the most use at this stage:
Some Key Words
Rta: Faced with the idea of an underlying unity in the diversity it is possible for us to propose a constancy that pervades the uncertain world of change. In the Vedas this is a constancy that directs the rotation of the seasons and maintains the order in the heavens; that brings order out of chaos as it were. Rta became the word used for this harmony that rests behind the changing scenes in the inner and outer environments. However, Rta was also pro-active in that it would Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details impose order, direct people on the right path, the path taken by the righteous ones. 'O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right path over all evils.' RV X.133.6 As a transcendent, supramental force it is seen by some as the same concept as dharma. It is cosmic law and integrity, occasionally personalised but also impersonal and as such may be seen to express that mysterious power; it is a power of the One appearing in diversity.
Yajna: The Sacred Giving Through observation it had been reasoned that a central process in Rta was an outpouring and expansion, an active giving that was mirrored by the giving of an individual in a community. In the events of yajna there can be seen signs of the first sacrifice, the manifestation of the many emerging out of the One. (Purusha Shukta, RgVeda X.90) While many rituals would be performed for the acquisition of a good life free from hunger and free from attack by one's enemies, there is also the desire for insight and knowledge to be granted to the participants. Ultimately however, beyond these two levels, the sacrifice itself becomes the means of returning the many, through the aegises of the powers, the 'shining ones', devatAH, to that all-pervading source. That is, through the objects of the physical manifestation in the place, means and practitioners of the ritual, the subtle powers are invited to attend, they 'give themselves', expanding to the limits of the ritual through which they ultimately are released. For the 'success' of this act then a key must be purity; that is purity of place and materials, purity of persons and, primarily, purity of speech or word. Right intention, that is action in accordance with Rta, will enable the power of the Agni and the flowing beauty of Sarasvati, for example, to enter the ritual which takes place simultaneously at three levels. These three levels are stated in the words that traditionally introduce the Gayatri mantra: the lowest sphere (bhuuh), the intermediary of the middle region (bhvah) and the higher region of the celestial sphere (svah). Without the right 'charitable' intention manifesting in the song of the participants the middle region, the doorway to the essential powers, cannot be opened. dhI This extremely important faculty of spiritual discernment and vision may be observed in the Vedic tradition in the myth of the Rbhus, those humans who were elevated to the plane of the devataH through Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details their excellent skills and craftsmanship. They manifested their miraculous deeds through three 'skills': the power of speech, ShacIbhiH, vision, dhIyaH, and mental ability, manasA: yaábhiH sháciibhish camasaáM+ ápiMshata yáyaa dhiyaá gaám áriNiita cármaNaH yéna hárii mánasaa nirátakSata téna devatvám RbhavaH sám aanasha 'The mighty powers (shacIbhish, the power of speech, eloquence) wherewith. ye formed the chalices, the thought (dhiyA) by which ye drew the cow from out the hide, The intellect (manasA, heart/mind) wherewith ye wrought the two Bay Steeds,-through these, O Rbhus, ye attained divinity.' RV III.60.2
The Gayatri Mantra is a prayer for the awakening of the dhI. 'May we meditate, dhImah, on the Supreme Light: On the all-pervading radiance of the ultimate source of divine light. May he inspire the innermost thoughts, dhíyo, of our hearts.' In the Upanishads that higher faculty is often referred to as buddhi. The Katha Upanishad, 3.12 states, 'This Atman is seen through a subtle, one-pointed Buddhi'; the Mundaka says, 3.1.8, '(The luminous inner Self) is seen when the mind is purified and knowledge becomes clear.' DhI is a faculty, available to all who explore their own 'inner space' with integrity and through listening to the mantras of their ancestral seers in ritual. DhI is strengthened through single-minded devotion, a concentration focussed on the power and knowledge of the causal realm.
BrahmaNA BrahmaNA in the RigVeda is the causal vibration or sound, the sacred word through which the devaH emerges in power. The singing priest invokes the devaH and requests that he be filled with the power of fine speech which spreads out, bubbling up from the spring of inspiration, to flood the known or ever expanding universe. While channelling this causal sound the priest becomes that sound so that the singer and the song are BrahmaNA. This is the Word becoming flesh, as it were. Beginning in a state of weakness as the unempowered individual, the singer brings the strength-giving, unifying sound out of 'the depths' into the place of ritual. Through the manifest forms of the ritual the unmanifest is spoken. This is the ultimate power of the singer, through the soma of inspiration, the dawning light of knowledge is spoken and brings protection, wealth and good fortune into Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details the world for the benefit of all 'bipeds and quadrupeds'.
RSi, Kavi, Vipra and Soma The Rgveda gives three names for the seer: rishi, vipra and kavi. As explained earlier, rishi means one who has the vision of the mantra. The word vipra can be traced etymologically, vip, to a trembling, excited state resulting from the presence of the power of the deity inspiring the seer. The vipras are also poets, kavis, who are able to solve the riddles of the mantras, to see through the outer forms and recognise the truth being veiled. The ordinary man or woman is transformed into the seer through such a vision. Soma, 'sva me', is the source of inspiration that is said to convert the ordinary mind and to guide the inspired sages. The mystery of Rta is unravelled only to a rishi: kavír giirbhíH kaávyenaa kavíH sán sómaH pavítram áty eti rébhan || 'By songs a Poet and a Sage by wisdom, Soma goes singing through the cleansing filter.' R'Simanaa yá RSikR't svarSaáH sahásraNiithaH padaviíH kaviinaám | tRtiíyaM dhaáma mahiSáH síSaasan sómo viraájam ánu raajati STúp || 'Light-winner, Rsi-minded, Rsi-maker, hymned in a thousand hymns, Leader of sages, A Steer who strives to gain his third form, Soma is, like Viraj, resplendent as a Singer.' RV IX.96.17,18 Message 23138 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> Some Key Words > > Rta: > Faced with the idea of an underlying unity in the > diversity it is possible for us to propose a constancy > that pervades the uncertain world of change.
Namaste,
This word made me recall another aspect of Time, a thread of recent discussion. [Without meaning to digress, as Sadaji had inquired about the Vedic ideas on Time in that thread, and I was Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details unable to respond due to a 'sick' computer, I am just giving a reference to a famous hymn:] http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/vedic_experience/Part2/VEPartIIC hA.html
Purnah kumbhah AV XIX, 53 1. Time drives like a horse with seven reins, a thousand-eyed unaging Stallion. Him the inspired poets mount. All beings are his chariot wheels. 2. Time draws this chariot with seven wheels. Seven are the hubs; its axle is nondeath. At the head of all beings Time proceeds unceasingly, the first among the Gods. 3. Above Time is set a brimful vessel. Simultaneously we see Time here, there, everywhere. Set face to face with all existences, Time is throned, men say, in the loftiest realm. 4. Time has gathered together all beings that are; he has passed through all the gathered beings. He who was father has become their son. There is no glory higher than his. 5. Time generated the Sky above and this vast Earth. The passing moments present and future, by him set swinging, are reckoned out in due proportions. 6. Time brought forth fate-filled chance. In Time the Sun shines and burns. In Time the eye spies from afar. In Time all existences are. 7. In Time is consciousness and life, In Time is concentrated name By Time, when he draws close at hand, all creatures are with gladness filled. 8. In Time is energy, in Time the highest good. In Time is the Holy Utterance. Time is the Lord of all that is, the Father, he, of the Creator. 9. Sent forth by him, from him all this was born . On him is it established. So soon as he has become Brahman, Time supports the highest Deity. 10. Time created the creatures. Time created in the beginning the Lord of creatures. From Time comes the Self-Existent. Energy likewise from Time derives. ------
Kala AV XIX, 54 1. From Time came into being the Waters, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details from Time the Holy Word, Energy, and the regions. By Time [each day] the Sun arises, in Time he goes to rest again. 2. By Time blows the cleansing Wind, through Time the vast Earth has her being. The great Heaven has his post in Time. 3. Their son Time long ago engendered the things that were and that shall be. From Time came Scripture into being and formulas for Sacrifice. 4. By Time was Sacrifice inaugurated, inexhaustible oblation to the Gods. In Time live the spirits ant the nymphs. Upon Time all the worlds repose. 5. In Time are set this Angiras and Atharvan who came from Heaven, both this world and the world above, all holy worlds and holy interspaces. 6. Having conquered the worlds by Holy Word, Time, the God supreme, goes on.
Raimondo Panikkar's commentary at this site is quite enthralling.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23139 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> path taken by the righteous ones. > `O Indra, lead us on the path of Rta, on the right > path over all evils.' RV X.133.6 > As a transcendent, supramental force it is seen by > some as the same concept as dharma. It is cosmic law > and integrity, occasionally personalised but also > impersonal and as such may be seen to express that > mysterious power; it is a power of the One appearing > in diversity.
Namaste all.
Just a supplement to Ken-ji's wonderful listing and explanations of the Vedic keywords. Particularly the two words Rtam and Satyam occur in pairs throughout the Vedas repeatedly. Each time people give it different meanings, for example:
Satyam is Truth in its pure existence. Ritam is Truth in its dynamic movement Satyam is Truth in its pure existence. Rtam is Truth in its dynamic movement Satyam is Truth. Rtam is Law Satyam is what is true. Rtam is what is just. Satyam is individual truthfulness; Rtam is universal order Satyam is social truthfulness; Rtam is spiritual law. Satyam is Right Thought . Rtam is Right Action. Satyam is worldly truth and order. Rtam is cosmic truth and order Satyam is the true; Rtam is the right. Satyam is Truth of Being. Rtam is Truth of Divine Being.
But here is a useful write up by Anand Hudli on the evolution of the meanings of Rtam and Satyam: http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/public/advaita-l/1998- April/008777.html
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. Profvk Message 23140 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy"
Namaste The above web address appears in two lines. So it has to be copied and pasted on the address box. Just clicking the first line would not work. Sorry for the inconvenience.
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda profvk Message 23141 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy"
> Just a supplement to Ken-ji's wonderful listing and explanations of > the Vedic keywords. Particularly the two words Rtam and Satyam occur > in pairs throughout the Vedas repeatedly.
Namaste,
Some more thoughts on Rta: http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/foreword.html
".....There is a difference of opinion even among the learned as to the meaning of the word "dharma". The word is derived from "dhr" to uphold, sustain or nourish. The seers often use it in close association with "rta" and "satya". Sri Vidyaranya defines rta as the mental perception and realization of God. The Taithriya Upanishad also uses it with "satya" and "dharma". It exhorts students to speak the truth and practise dharma ("Satya vada"; "Dharmam chara"). According to Sankara Bhagavatpada, satya means speaking the truth and dharma means translating it (Satya) into action.
"Satyamiti yathasastrarthata sa eva anusthiyamanah dharmanama bhavati."
In this connection, the explanation given by Sri.K.Balasubramania Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Aiyar is relevant:: "An analysis of the significance of these three words (rta, satya and dharma) brings out clearly to us the fundamental basis of dharma as the ideal for an individual. While rta denotes the mental perception and realization of truth and satya denotes the exact true expression in words of the truth as perceived by the mind, dharma is the observance, in the conduct of life, of truth. In fact, dharma is the way of life which translates into action the truth perceived by the man of insight as expressed by him truly. In short, rta is truth in thought, satya is truth in words and dharma is truth in deed."
[excerpt from the Foreword by Judge Mishra]
Regards,
Sunder Message 23142 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Sunderji writes...
"In short, rta is truth in thought, satya is truth in words and dharma is truth in deed."
Yes! Indeed!
In the TaittirIya upaniShad (1.11.1)Tthere is a verse that says
"satyaM vada . dharmaM cara ."
Speak the truth, practice dharma and wheat is the SOURCE of Dharma ? and in manu smriti, manu says
"vedo.akhilo dharmamUlam" (mulm means foundation) veda-s are the source of all dharma
'Dharmao rakshati rakshitah'
Dharma protects those who protect dharma AND
'Dharma eva hatohanti' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Dharma destroys those who try to destroy dharma
Thank you sunderji for a delightful post.
Thank you knightji for reminding us of the twin truths of Satya AND dharma - the pillars of Hinduism.
with warmest regards Message 23143 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
In sri vishnu shasaranama.h. Lord vishnu is described as satya-dharma-parAkramah
Meaning
One whose qualities and valor are always true. Om satya-dharma- parAkramAya namah.
Here dharma refers to the auspicious qualities of BhagavAn, and parAkrama refers to His valor. One in whom they are never failing (satya) is satya-dharma-parAkramah. SrI cinmayAnanda interprets the nAma to mean that BhagavAn is one who embodies satya (truth), dharma (righteous), and parAkrama (heroism). In vAlmIki rAmAyaNa SrI rAma is referred to as satya-parAkramah - One whose parAkrama is never in vain, and is always used for the good of the world. The writer in dharma cakram points out that the nAma tells us the importance of living a life of truth, righteousenss, and the valor resulting from this kind of life. Those who live a life along these lines are bound to succeed in what they do, as evidenced by the lives of HanumAn, Bhishma, etc. - source -dAsan kRshNamAcAryan
AUM NAMO NARAYANA!
In [email protected], "adi_shakthi16"
> > > In the TaittirIya upaniShad (1.11.1)Tthere is a verse that says > > "satyaM vada . dharmaM cara ." > > Speak the truth, practice dharma Message 23145 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all,
Thank you for today's contributions on Rta and satya which I have printed off for the file. With such full contributions I thought it best to leave the next section in my own series for a day or so. Especially as your postings have set me off on an etymological study of Rta. If anything of value appears I will post it tomorrow. One member contacted me away from the group and sent me the following URL: http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/Breath/Forth.htm
This was because of the postscript I have been using to end my postings: 'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.'
I thought that it was well worth sharing it generally
Ken Knight Message 23147 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
Namaste Sunderji and Good Health to your Computer, It seems as though Rta has caught the attention so I will dwell on the word a little further as I attempt to reply to your most welcome postings. Firstly, Sunderji directs us to 'The Vedic Experience' book on the web. The following quote from that book captures the essence of what our present study is attempting to suggest is the metaphysical ritual imbued with philosophical insight displayed by the RgVeda.
'9 There is a kumbha, a jar, a vessel that is above time, the Atharva Veda tells us. This pitcher is so full that it is the origin of time inexhaustible. The Upanishads attempt to peep into and take possession of the jar in its entirety. The Vedas themselves had suggested the method: breaking the jar by means of sacrifice. The Upanishads now assert that this sacrifice must be an internal and spiritual one. '
We have previously discussed Panikkar on this site and I remember that some were most upset by his blending of Christian/Vedantin mysticism that is his parental heritage. Although I personally have debated with him, and opposed him, regarding his interpretations of the mahavakyas that he presents in this book, there is no doubting the spirituality of the man and the immense value of his work.
One of his pupils has written a wonderfully thorough and insightful book on Rta and I recommend it to anyone seriously interested in such a study. The book is 'The Vision of Cosmic Order in the Vedas' by Jeanine Miller pub. Routledge & Kegan Paul. She has also written 'The Vedas. Harmony, Meditation and Fulfilment' published by Rider & Company. If you can find copies you will find them good company.
I have explained in another mail that this is a rather busy weekend but I particularly want to extend the key-words list in the light of recent postings as well as pick up on a couple of other points. This I will do as 'Time' allows so I won't post the next section in the pre-written series for a couple of days.
Many thanks,
Ken Knight Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Message 23148 of 23496 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Dear all,
Ken Kightji has been explaining to us some key words in the Rg Veda. one of these words is Rta.
It is always interesting to know how these words are interpreted in different contexts- more so in the realm of Psychology.
In the olden days, it was always fashionable to quote Sigmund Freud, the father of Psychology.
In most recent times, it is Carl Jung who has come into prominence espeacially while discussing 'new age' religion...
But we know there is nothing new agey about VEDAS! in fact, vedas are 'ever youthful' and 'eternal' truths. it is my pleasure to share with you the following excerpt from Carl Jung on WHAT IS RTA?
What is rta? An inner force of law From Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921)
THE QUOTE BEGINS ... ------"Rta means established order, regulation, destiny, sacred custom, statute, divine law, right, truth. According to the etymological evidence its root meaning is: ordinance, (right) way, direction, course (to be followed). That which is ordained by rta fills the whole world, but the particular manifestations of rta are in those processes of nature which always remain constant and arouse the idea of regular recurrence: "By the ordinace of rta the heaven-born dawn was lighted." "In obedience to rta" the Ancinet Ones who order the world "made the sun to mount into the heavens," who himself is "the burning countenance of rta." Around the heavens circles the year, the twelve-spoked wheel of rta that never ages. Agni is called the offspring of rta. In the doings of man, rta operates as moral law, which ordains truth and the straight way. "Whoso follows rta, finds a fair and thornless path to walk in."
In so far as they represent a magical repetition or reenactment of cosmic events, rta also figures in religious rites. As the rivers flow in obedience to rta and the crimson dawn is set ablaze, so "under the harness of rta" is the sacrifice kindled; on the path of rta, Agni offers sacrifice to the gods. "Free from magic, I invoke Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details the gods; with rta I do my work, and shape my thought," says the sacrificer. Although rta does not appear personified in the Vedas, according to Bergaigne a suggestion of concrete existence undoubtedly attaches to it. Since rta expresses the direction of events, there are "paths of rta," "charioteers of rta," "ships of rta," and on occasion the gods appear as parallels. For instance, the same is said of rta as of Varuna, the sky-god. Mitra also, the ancient sun-god, is brought into relation wit rta. Of Agni it is said; "Thou shalt become Varuna, if thou strivest after rta." The gods are the guardians of rta. Here are some of the most important associations:
Rta is Mitra, for Mitra is Brahman and rta is Brahman
By giving the cow to the Brahmans, one gains all the worlds, for in her is contained rta, Brahman, and tapas also.
Prajapati is named the first-born of rta.
The gods followed the laws of rta.
He who ha seent he hidden one (Agni), draws nigh to the streams of rta.
O wise one of rta, know rta! Bore for rta's many streams.
The "boring" refers to the worship of Agni, to whom this hymn is dedicated. (Agni is here called "the red bull of rta.") In the worship of Agni, the fire obtained by boring is used as a magic symbol of the regeneration of life. Boring for the streams of rta obviously has the same significance; the streams of life rise to the surface again, libido is freed from its bonds. The effect produced by the ritual fire-boring, or by the recital of hymns, is naturally regarded by believers as the magical effect of the object; in reality it is an "enchantment" of the subject, an intensification of vital feeling, an increase and release of life force, a restoration of psychic potential.
Though he [Agni] slinks away, the prayer goes straight to him. They [the prayers] have led forth the flowing streams of rta.
The revival of vital feeling, of this sense of streaming energy, is in general compared to a spring gushing from its source, to melting of the iron-bound ice of winter in springtime, or to the breaking of a long drought by rain. The following passage takes up this theme:
The lowing milch-cows of rta were overflowing, their udders full. The streams, imploring from afar the favour of the gods, have broken through the midst of the rock with their floods.
The imagery clearly suggests a state of energic tension, a damming up of libido and its release. Rta apperas here as the bestower of blessing in the form of "lowing milch-cows" and as the ultimate source of the released energy. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
The aforementioned image of rain as a release of libido is borne out in the following passage:
The mists fly, the clouds thunder. When he who is swollen with the milk of rta is led on the straight path of rta, Aryaman, Mitra, and Varuna who wanders over the earth, fill the learthern sack (=cloud) in the womb of the lower (world?).
It is Agni, swollen with the milk of rta, who is likened to the lightning that bursts forth from the massed clouds heavy with rain. Here again rta appears as the actual source of energy, whence Agni also is born, as expressly mentioned in the Vedic Hymns.
They have greeted with shouts the streams of rta, which were hidden at the birthplace of the god, at his seat. There did he drink when he dwelt dispersed in the womb of the waters.
353 This confirms wht we have said about rta as the source of libido where the god dwells and whence he is brought forth in the sacred ceremonies. Agni is the positive manifestation of the latent libido; he is accomplisher or fulfiller of rta, its "charioteer"; he harnesses the two long-maned red mares of rta. He even holds rta like a horse, by the bridle. He brings the gods to mankind, their power and blessing; they represent definite psychological states in which the vital feelings and energies flow with greater freedom and joy. Nietzsche has captured this state in his verse:
You with your fiery lances Shatter the ice-bound soul of me Till wit high hope it advances Rushing and roaring into the sea.
The following invocation echoes this theme:
May the divine gates, the increasers of rta, open themselves...that the gods may come forth. May Night and Dawn...the young mothers of rta, sit down together on the sacrificial grass.
The ananlogy with the sunrise is unmistakable. Rta appears as the sun, since it is from night and dawn that the young sun is born.
------http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phil.williams/What%20is%20rta.htm - 6k Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
From Jung's Collected Works 6 Psychological Types (1921)
------
348 Rta means established order, regulation, destiny, sacred custom, statute, divine law, right, truth. According to the etymological evidence its root meaning is: ordinance, (right) way, direction, course (to be followed). That which is ordained by rta fills the whole world, but the particular manifestations of rta are in those processes of nature which always remain constant and arouse the idea of regular recurrence: "By the ordinace of rta the heaven-born dawn was lighted." "In obedience to rta" the Ancinet Ones who order the world "made the sun to mount into the heavens," who himself is "the burning countenance of rta." Around the heavens circles the year, the twelve-spoked wheel of rta that never ages. Agni is called the offspring of rta. In the doings of man, rta operates as moral law, which ordains truth and the straight way. "Whoso follows rta, finds a fair and thornless path to walk in."
349 In so far as they represent a magical repetition or reenactment of cosmic events, rta also figures in religious rites. As the rivers flow in obedience to rta and the crimson dawn is set ablaze, so "under the harness of rta" is the sacrifice kindled; on the path of rta, Agni offers sacrifice to the gods. "Free from magic, I invoke the gods; with rta I do my work, and shape my thought," says the sacrificer. Although rta does not appear personified in the Vedas, according to Bergaigne a suggestion of concrete existence undoubtedly attaches to it. Since rta expresses the direction of events, there are "paths of rta," "charioteers of rta," "ships of rta," and on occasion the gods appear as parallels. For instance, the same is said of rta as of Varuna, the sky-god. Mitra also, the ancient sun-god, is Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details brought into relation wit rta. Of Agni it is said; "Thou shalt become Varuna, if thou strivest after rta." The gods are the guardians of rta. Here are some of the most important associations:
Rta is Mitra, for Mitra is Brahman and rta is Brahman
By giving the cow to the Brahmans, one gains all the worlds, for in her is contained rta, Brahman, and tapas also.
Prajapati is named the first-born of rta.
The gods followed the laws of rta.
He who ha seent he hidden one (Agni), draws nigh to the streams of rta.
O wise one of rta, know rta! Bore for rta's many streams.
350 The "boring" refers to the worship of Agni, to whom this hymn is dedicated. (Agni is here called "the red bull of rta.") In the worship of Agni, the fire obtained by boring is used as a magic symbol of the regeneration of life. Boring for the streams of rta obviously has the same significance; the streams of life rise to the surface again, libido is freed from its bonds. The effect produced by the ritual fire-boring, or by the recital of hymns, is naturally regarded by believers as the magical effect of the object; in reality it is an "enchantment" of the subject, an intensification of vital feeling, an increase and release of life force, a restoration of psychic potential.
Though he [Agni] slinks away, the prayer goes straight to him. They [the prayers] have led forth the flowing streams of rta.
351 The revival of vital feeling, of this sense of streaming energy, is in general compared to a spring gushing from its source, to melting of the iron-bound ice of winter in springtime, or to the breaking of a long drought by rain. The following passage takes up this theme:
The lowing milch-cows of rta were overflowing, their udders full. The streams, imploring from afar the favour of the gods, have broken through the midst of the rock with their floods.
The imagery clearly suggests a state of energic tension, a damming up of libido and its release. Rta apperas here as the bestower of blessing in the form of "lowing milch-cows" and as the ultimate source of the released energy.
The aforementioned image of rain as a release of libido is borne out in the following passage:
The mists fly, the clouds thunder. When he who is swollen with the milk of rta is led on the straight path of rta, Aryaman, Mitra, and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Varuna who wanders over the earth, fill the learthern sack (=cloud) in the womb of the lower (world?).
It is Agni, swollen with the milk of rta, who is likened to the lightning that bursts forth from the massed clouds heavy with rain. Here again rta appears as the actual source of energy, whence Agni also is born, as expressly mentioned in the Vedic Hymns.
They have greeted with shouts the streams of rta, which were hidden at the birthplace of the god, at his seat. There did he drink when he dwelt dispersed in the womb of the waters.
353 This confirms wht we have said about rta as the source of libido where the god dwells and whence he is brought forth in the sacred ceremonies. Agni is the positive manifestation of the latent libido; he is accomplisher or fulfiller of rta, its "charioteer"; he harnesses the two long-maned red mares of rta. He even holds rta like a horse, by the bridle. He brings the gods to mankind, their power and blessing; they represent definite psychological states in which the vital feelings and energies flow with greater freedom and joy. Nietzsche has captured this state in his verse:
You with your fiery lances Shatter the ice-bound soul of me Till wit high hope it advances Rushing and roaring into the sea.
354 The following invoaction echoes this theme:
May the divine gates, the increasers of rta, open themselves...that the gods may come forth. May Night and Dawn...the young mothers of rta, sit down together on the sacrificial grass.
The ananlogy with the sunrise is unmistakable. Rta appears as the sun, since it is from night and dawn that the young sun is born.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phil.williams/What%20is%20rta.htm - 6k - Message 23150 of 23497 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste.
Here is a comment on the word 'MAyA'. Many of us would be familiar with the derivation: 'yA mA sA mAyA' meaning, 'What is not, is mAyA'.
There are other derivations:
'mA ayyate (=jnAyate) iti mAyA' meaning, 'What cannot be comprehended, is mAyA'.
Also, 'mIyate (=jnAyate) kAryadvArA iti mAyA' meaning, '(Though it cannot be comprehended directly) it is known by its effects'.
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. Profvk Message 23152 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
Namaste Professor and all others following this series,
At the moment I request everyone's patience as I keep talking around the word mAyA in order to set the stage with the various players that will help us to become part of the RgVedic experience, I hope. Please can we store this valuable posting of Professor Krishnamurty, and I thank him for it, until we move into the section of this series. I have added the following to my original list of key words because of your postings on Time and the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details interest in Rta. As explained previously, I am a little rushed today so the following may be somewhat garbled but should be of use:
Some more key words
Tapas: 'the creative flame of contemplative exertion, the contracting to an inner point of dissolution and the subsequent expansion to an infinitude of creative possibilities.' That is a quote from Jeanine Miller's book 'The Vision of Cosmic Order in the Vedas.' The ultimate tapas is that from which sat and asat emerge as the nAsadIya sUkta states: RV X. 129.3 táma aasiit támasaa guuLhám ágre .apraketáM saliláM sárvam aa idám | tuchyénaabhv ápihitaM yád aásiit tápasas tán mahinaájaayataíkam ||
'Darkness there was: at first concealed in darknss this All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth (tapas) was born that Unit.'
That is the Griffith translation. Here is a more poetic translation: 'In the beginning, pregnant darkness was by dissolving darkness secretly enfolded. Unformed, unseparate that fluid was this entire creation. While the boundless source of being was by unformed being thus enclosed, That One, through light of knowledge (tapas) brought Itself forth, to be.'
Add the two together and we still won't get near to the Sanskrit but it helps us to see the importance of the word 'tapas' in the Vedic understanding. In this earlier hymn 'tapas' is used following a plea to the 'heroic vigour' in Indra's heart. This vigour is related to true faith and speech and empowers the austerities ritualised through yajna: RV IX 113.2 aá pavasva dishaam pata aarjiikaát soma miiDhvaH | Rtavaakéna satyéna shraddháyaa tápasaa sutá índraayendo pári srava ||
'Lord of the Quarters, flow thou on, boon Soma, from Arjika land, Effused with ardour and with faith, and the true hymn of sacrifice. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake.'
(Dr Yadu, please note that second line on Rta/satya) Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
At the human level the notion of 'tapas' is related to the difficult times as well as the austere practices of those rishis seeking unity in the power of the universe: ná tám áMho ná duritaáni mártyam índraavaruNaa ná tápaH kútash caná | yásya devaa gáchatho viithó adhvaráM ná tám mártasya nashate párihvRtiH ||
'No trouble, no misfortune, Indra-Varuna, no woe from any side assails the mortal man Whose sacrifice, O Gods, ye visit and enjoy: ne'er doth the crafty guile of mortal injure him.'
VisRSTi This has been described as the projection of the inner into the outer. If we return to the nAsadIya sUkta we find Griffith using the word 'creation'. I would suggest that this is an error if we take 'creation' to mean a 'Big Bang' process in Time with a beginning, middle and end. I do not think that this would agree with the Vedic vision that does not seem to have such a word for Time in this sense, they only seem to have a 'middle' as it were. The word being translated as creation is visRSTi but a better translation would be emanation, an ongoing, beginningless and endless single event that is ever changing but ever complete in itself.
RV. X. 129.6,7 kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat kúta aájaataa kúta iyáM vísRSTiH | arvaág devaá asyá visárjanenaáthaa kó veda yáta aababhuúva ||
'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? TheGods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?' iyáM vísRSTir yáta aababhuúva yádi vaa dadhé yádi vaa ná | yó asyaádhyakSaH paramé vyòman só aÑgá veda yádi vaa ná véda ||
'He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
As with so many Sanskrit words, visRSTi, contains the meaning of movement, a going outward and in the following it signifies the confident, powerful movement of the warrior about to overcome all the lesser powers of the physical world.
RV I.122..11 sá vraádhato náhuSo dáMsujuutaH shárdhastaro naraáM guurtáshravaaH vísRSTaraatir yaati baaLhasR'tvaa víshvaasu pRtsú sádam íc chuúraH 'That man, most puissant, wondrously urged onward, famed among heroes, liberal in giving, Moveth a warrior, evermore undaunted in all encounters even with the mighty.'
From the older hymns of the RigVeda the word brings with it this expansive, freeing meaning as in the following which notes how the hymn, emanating from a tongue freed from minor matters, draws down Indra into the ritual event, an event in which Indra himself lies waiting to be released. That last point is very important and will be returned to later.
RV VII.24.2 gRbhiitáM te mána indra dvibárhaaH sutáH sómaH páriSiktaa mádhuuni | vísRSTadhenaa bharate suvRktír iyám índraM jóhuvatii maniiSaá ||
'Indra, thy wish, twice-strong, is comprehended: pressed is the Soma, poured are pleasant juices. This hymn of praise, from loosened tongue, made perfect, draws Indra to itself with loud invoking'
The power of speech to fulfil this intention in the emanation is beautifully illustrated in the following hymn to VAk, in which Vrtra is to be slain and the intuited speech to be set free to fill the ritual event through the command of Indra.
RV.VIII. 100 deviíM vaácam ajanayanta devaás taáM vishváruupaaH pashávo vadanti | saá no mandréSam uúrjaM dúhaanaa dhenúr vaág asmaán úpa súSTutaítu ||
'The Deities generated Vak the Goddess, and animals of every figure speak her. May she, the Gladdener, yielding food and vigour, the Milch-cow Vak, approach us meetly lauded. sákhe viSNo vitaráM ví kramasva dyaúr dehí lokáM vájraaya viSkábhe | hánaava vRtráM riNácaava síndhuun índrasya yantu Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details prasavé vísRSTaaH ||
'Step forth with wider stride, my comrade Visnu; make room, Dyaus, for the leaping of the lightning. Let us slay Vrtra, let us free the rivers let them flow loosed at the command of Indra'
Soma I do not want to get into a discussion as to whether Soma is merely an intoxicating herb pressed out during a ritual or an inner spiritual 'pressing' of inspiration. That can be dealt with later. But as the word appears in the hymns above I thought that it would be of interest here, in this section that is really looking as yajna. This is a story from the Satapatha Brahmana for the etymological derivation of soma. Shatapatha Brahmana, (3.9.4.22-23) 'Now as to why he is called Soma. When he first became sacrificial food for the gods, he thought within him, 'I must not become sacrificial food for the gods with my whole self!' That form of his which was most pleasing he accordingly put aside. Thereupon the gods were victorious; they said, 'Draw that unto thee, for therewith thou shalt become our food!' He drew it unto him even from afar, saying, verily, that is mine own (sva me), hence he was called soma. Then as to why he is called yagn[a (sacrifice). Now when they press him, they slay him; and when they spread him, they cause him to be born. He is born in being spread along, he is born moving (yan gayate): hence yan-ga for yan[ga, they say, is the same as yagn[a.' (translation by Muller.)
This theme can be followed throughout the tradition through such as Vishnu's incarnation as yajn[a-varaaha. The primeval boar signifying sacrifice, in the Kalika-Purana,( Chapter 30), in the Atharva Veda, 9.5. Krishna Yajur Veda 9.21. Message 23153 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- ymoharir
> has been partially > elaborated in various Advatin posts...... > Any thoughts !!?
Namaste Dr Yadu and others who pass this way,
Here is this morning's study on Rtam/Satyam. I hope that it is relevant. I did do somthing using Panini's Dhattupatha but will hold it in storage.
Whenever we are dealing with sruti such as the Rgveda we need to hold in mind the three levels of meaning occurring at the same time in the same sound. These may accord with the 'inner space', 'outer space' of the pot and the undivided space that they are each pervaded by. ( I will be using more traditional language for these three in a posting on YAska later this week). In the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam and satyam as words can come to be defined as 'truth' or 'righteousness' but there is a danger in such limitation so that confusion reigns. In the inner space, where division of ideas first occurs for the purposes of understanding, we can intuit different emphases of that single power which seems to sustain and direct what we call the universe.
Starting with the traditional understanding that may be derived from the recent posts in this June topic: 'Sat means what exists, being, and satya what is in accordance with sat, hence truth. But the action, at all levels, which takes place in accordance with truth and is thus also truth itself is Rta. Satya is knowledge of truth, Rta is action according to such knowledge.' I think that definition works at all levels but please correct me if necessary.
Can we please now put this into the context which we could construct from the recent 'key word' postings. And also seek guidance from the Rgveda. The singers of the hymns seek to internalise that power from which emanates the sounds and sights before them, to harness or focus it: '..straining after an inspired thought like a spirited, well-yoked horse.' RV. III.38.1 This is the meaning of brahman in the Rgvedic hymns as an immense power realised in the human psyche and expressed through the Word of the mantra. The chanting and controlled preparation in the ritual produces an inner heat or tapas, that heat is the same as that original concentration of Tad Ekam as discussed in the nAsadIya sUktam: hymn of creation. It Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
is no more nor less than the Self being drawn to Itself through Itself to use later terminology although I believe the concept is the same.
This process stimulates the faculty of dhI within the human psyche so we may simplify the process into: inspiration, vision, action. RV. VIII. 35.16 bráhma jinvatam utá jinvataM dhíyo hatáM rákSaaMsi sédhatam ámiivaaH | sajóSasaa uSásaa suúryeNa ca sómaM sunvató ashvinaa ||
'Give spirit to our prayer and animate our thoughts; slay ye the Raksasas and drive away disease. Accordant, of One mind with Surya and with Dawn, -the presser's Soma, Asvins drink.'
In a later hymn it is clearly stated that this vision, dhI, is rooted in Rta, granted to us through the art of the ancestors of the rishis, the pitris. It is the latter who reached heaven through realising the light emerging through the Dawn. This allows the rishi to do the same and hence, because the event emanates out of Rta, enables the 'the praising of eternal order (Truth) and results in correct thought (see verse 2 below).
RV X 67.1,2 imaáM dhíyaM saptáshiirSNiim pitaá na Rtáprajaataam bRhatiím avindat | turiíyaM svij janayad vishvájanyo .ayaásya ukthám índraaya sháMsan ||
'This holy hymn, sublime and sevenheaded, sprung from eternal Law, our sire discovered. Ayasya, friend of all men, hath engendered the fourth hymn as he sang his laud to Indra.'
RtáM sháMsanta Rjú diídhyaanaa divás putraáso ásurasya viiraáH | vípram padám áÑgiraso dádhaanaa yajñásya dhaáma prathamám mananta ||
T'hinking aright, praising eternal Order, the sons of Dyaus the Asura, those heroes Angirases, holding the rank of sages, first honoured sacrifice's holy statute.'
Right thought, rooted in truth, alone can bring forth the spiritual insight to flower and fruit in action. This then is the entry of Rta into the life of those seeking truth in thought and action aiming for the maximum 'crop' for the benefit of all. Rta is the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details cosmic order from which issues everything, all divine laws or statutes, which the gods must understand and obey, which humans need to reflect upon (contemplate) to manifest in truth-full action. That which allows such discriminated action is satyam. It is the light of the true sun.
RV III.39 5-8 sákhaa ha yátra sákhibhir návagvair abhijñv aá sátvabhir gaá anugmán | satyáM tád índro dashábhir dáshagvaiH suúryaM viveda támasi kSiyántam|| índro mádhu sámbhRtam usríyaayaam padvád viveda shaphávan náme góH | gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNe dákSiNaavaan || jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaád abhiíkeimaá gíraH somapaaH somavRddha juSásvendra purutámasya kaaróH || jyótir yajñaáya ródasii ánu Syaad aaré syaama duritásya bhuúreH | bhuúri cid dhí tujató mártyasya supaaraáso vasavo barháNaavat ||
'Where as a Friend with friendly men, Navagvas, with heroes, on his knees he sought the cattle. There, verily with ten Dasagvas Indra found the Sun lying hidden in the darkness. 6 Indra found meath collected in the milch-cow, by foot and hoof, in the cow's place of pasture. That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he held in his right hand, the rich rewarder. 7 He took the light, discerning it from darkness: may we be far removed from all misfortune. These songs, O Soma-drinker, cheered by Soma, Indra, accept from thy most zealous poet. 8 Let there be light through both the worlds for worship: may we be far from most overwhelming evil. Great woe comes even from the hostile mortal, piled up; but good at rescue are the Vasus.'
Returning to the later collection of hymns in Mandala X. 111, 1,2: mániiSiNaH prá bharadhvam maniiSaáM yáthaa-yathaa matáyaH sánti nRNaám | índraM satyaír érayaamaa kRtébhiH sá hí viiró girvaNasyúr vídaanaH ||
'Bring forth your sacred song ye prudent singers, even as are the thoughts of human beings. Let us draw Indra with true deeds near us: he loves our songs, the Hero, and is potent.' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2 Rtásya hí sádaso dhiitír ádyaut sáM gaarSTeyó vRSabhó góbhir aanaT | úd atiSThat taviSéNaa ráveNa mahaánti cit sáM vivyaacaa rájaaMsi ||
'The hymn shone brightly from the seat of worship: to the kine came the Bull, the Heifer's Offspring With mighty bellowing hath he arisen, and hath pervaded even the spacious regions.'
I hope that this little exploration is enough to get you replying with further insights of your own. Message 23154 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Thank you kindly, Ken-Knightji !
Although born a Hindu, i never had a chance to read such beautiful excerpts from the Rg Veda presented in this orderly fashion. I was in my own world of 'Maya' and more 'Maya.' Thank you for bringing me down to Earth( prithvi) and introducing me to the world of RTA- SATYA- DHARMA !
RTa- the Cosmic order
"Firmly fixed are the foundations of rta shining in beauty, manifold are its beauteous forms. "
(Rigveda 4.23.9 )
Rta is: for the Hindus the blue print for cosmic harmony
-Dharma for the Chinese the mystical path
-Tao for the Muslims Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details the inflexible yet all merciful decrees of divine
-Haqq
For the Greco-Romans the form of universal reason
-logos for the Buddhists the law of righteousness
-Dhamma
"The concept of Rta, originates in the Rigveda (10.85; 4.23, 9-12; 10.190). In the Vedic vision the universe is not conceived as a haphazard mass of elements and events, but is an ordered whole, in which each part inheres the whole and the whole is balanced by its parts. The ordering principle of nature, the inflexible law of harmony, the universal cosmic flow which gives to everything from the vast galaxies, down to the nucleus of an atom, their nature and course, is Rta. Rta then, is observable everywhere.
Rta governs the movement of the heavenly bodies, Rta commands the shift and play of the seasons, Ritu; and it is Rta which guides the repeated round of birth, growth and decay of all life-forms. Rta lives in each human being as the pulsation of the heart-beat and the innumerable rhythms that balance life.
The principle of Rta is not unique to India. Parallel concepts are found in all the ancient civilizations of the world. Chinese culture describes it as the principle of Tao, Islamic thought as the principle of Haqq, Greco-Roman culture as Logos and the Buddhists as Dhamma. In all cultures the concept is unanimously accepted as a blue- print of Cosmic Harmony. Furthermore, this all-inclusive principle of cosmic harmony and human order pervades all the aspects of life: the natural world, the human world, the social world of every day community life, the moral world, as also, the realm of arts, creativity and architecture. Rta is also embodied in the ecological principle of inter-dependence, balance and interrelationship of all life. The seasonal cycles or Ritu Chakra through spring-time and harvest, are grounded in the principle of harmony and universal order; it is Rta which sustains the eco-balance of nature. Humans do not stand apart from nature but are a part of the larger cosmic flow. This integral bond between humans and nature became a basis for the seasonal celebrations, stimulated with prayers, incantations and sacred performances. The construction of sacred ritual practices and the participation in secular celebrations, are ways to mirror a Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details larger cosmic order as it is conceived by that people. While Rta denotes order, its opposite manifestation is Anrta, disorder. These two mutually dependent principles form two sides of a single cosmic process."
Kenji, it gives me great delight to introduce to this audience a visual exhibition on this subject -RTA and Ritu Chakra , held in Dalhi, India .
PLEASE visit http://www.ignca.nic.in/ex025001.htm - 17k - Cached
AND ENJOY THE BEAUTY AND SPLENDOR OF THE COSMIC ORDER IN PICTORIAL EXHIBITS. Message 23155 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: Benjamin
Namaste,
"Firmly fixed are the foundations of rta shining in beauty, manifold are its beauteous forms. " (Rigveda 4.23.9 )
The concept of Rta or Cosmic Harmony reveals a basically scientific attitude: the universe (both external and internal) proceeds according to laws. This is also reflected in the key Indian spiritual pillars of karma and yoga.
Contrast this with the notion of reward and punishment for good and bad deeds. Which do you think sounds more 'scientific', and which do you think is aimed at a childlike mentality?
Einstein liked Buddhism because it seemed 'rational' and 'scientific' to him. Buddhism reflects common Hindu values with the theological apparatus stripped away. Good for export...
Hari Om! Benjamin Message 23157 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "ymoharir"
Thank you Ken Ji:
Now please allow me to add my 1 and 1/4th Cents of my take on the "R^ita and satya".
I was precisely trying to lead you to the real purpose of using these two terms in the same sentence as a part covenant.
Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda should be achieved through itihaasa (history) and puraana. itihAsapurANAbhyaM vedaM samupabR^imhayet | bibhyetyalpashrutaad vedo maamayaM prahariShyati ||
Meaning - One must use itihaasa and puraana for furthering their understanding veda (upabR^ihaNa). Here, Veda Vyasa calls (or rather classifies) a person who know veda but not the puraaNa as being "alpashruta". He further goes on to say that veda is afraid of them as if "they (veda)" are going to be attacked (incorrect intrepretation). satya by definition - kaala trayaa baaddhyam (true during all the three periods (past, present and future). Because truth is digital. it's value is either "1" or "0". There is no such thing as partial truth. Process of arriving at that truth can be analogue. Therefore it is fairly easy to comprehend the meaning of satya.
There real problem starts when one tries to understand the expression R^ita. As Kenji pointed out is the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam and satyam as words can come to be defined as `truth' or `righteousness' but there is a danger in such limitation so that confusion reigns. In the inner space, where division of ideas first occurs for the purposes of understanding, we can intuit different emphases of that single power which seems to sustain and direct what we call the universe.
Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed in the same sentence actually provides some additional leads to further our understanding of this expression.
[R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one perceives, which may or may not be the real.
R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, which may or may not be necessarily true as far as the observer is concerned. Based on maayaa.
On an individual basis all saadhana is an expedition of finding the truth for themselves. Thus, this journey rests on the shoulders of R^ita and satya. This satisfies various levels for this expression. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
In scientific terms R^ita and Stya can be well illustrated by weight and mass.
Mass is always supposed to remain the same. However, it's weight can change depending on gravity.
A 100 kg GOLD on the Earth will weigh approx 22 kg on the Moon, due to the low gradational pull. (The reason I used the example of Gold is because pure Gold will always maintain its chemical purity.)
Here, Mass = satya and R^ita = Weight
Thus individual saadhanaa begins on the foundation of observed truth (R^ita) and ends that chapter when the absolute "satys" is encountered.
Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret these two terms together rather than separate in order to further our own understanding regardless on the subject matter and therefore must have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.
I would like to learn more of your thoughts on this interpretation.
Regards,
Dr. Yadu Message 23158 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Search. Compare. Save.
--- Benjamin
> An anonymous list member just commented to me that > there's not much > discussion yet on this month's topic, unlike > before...
Good evening Benjamin, Sunderji really gave me a monumental task with this title and I had to try to find a way to present the topic so that we did not proceed without making some effort to come to grips with a context very different from that which some of us know while others have been acquainted with it since birth. As I began, 'This is the advaitin site, Jim, but not as we know it.' If I am taking the wrong approach then Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details can the moderators please let me know, although my own personal measure will be applied when we reach the second stage of the study and when people have a chance to look at the use of mAyA in the Vedas. > > I think it is because Kenji is making us WORK, with > long and > substantial postings. Real homework! People would > rather just > express their own opinions.
The work, always, is to let go of all previous understanding. If we are to hear the sound of the Vedas we bring everything to the sacrificial fire. The hymns are immensely rich, everything that any of us needs to make us wealthy, in a true sense, is there. Any sacrifice needs a prepared place and necessary tools. I am trying to facilitate the sacrifice in an experimental way in cyber-space. As I have tended to emphasise in the postings, we in urbanised, literate environments are being expected to fly with one strong wing and one withered; the analytical approach has been well nourished but the intuitive has been neglected. Most of us have not learned to listen attentively within to the sound of sruti. The Vedas will not respond to the analytical alone, as a Sufi poet wrote: 'Enter the chamber of the heart and clean it out, then leave and the Lord will fill it with his glories.'
Thank you for your patience and good fortune with your advaita paper. Even if you are scanning these postings I know that some verse from the Rgveda will leap out at you. That is why I am gradually introducing more of the words of the hymns, they are far more important than my rambling explanations,
Thank you for taking the time to comment,
Ken Knight Message 23159 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- ymoharir
> should be achieved > through itihaasa (history) and puraana.
Namaste, That is what I am trying to present in these postings but also to prepare the way for direct experience, the eureka moment, when the flash of lightning releases the cows from the cave. Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAra claims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The future Yaska posting is going to be important on this matter of interpretation.
> Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed > in the same > sentence actually provides some additional leads to > further our > understanding of this expression. > > [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one > perceives, which may > or may not be the real. > > R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, > which may or may > not be necessarily true as far as the observer is > concerned. Based > on maayaa.
Again can we please be careful here. I am trying to avoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage because it would be an error to bring the later interpretation of mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rta and satya. > > Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret > these two terms > together rather than separate in order to further > our own > understanding regardless on the subject matter and > therefore must > have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.
Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these two words on so many occasions I should have followed their lead and presented them together in the original key-words list. Your postings have encouraged me to try to correct the original omission.
I need people with the cultural background and experience to pick up these points and I thank you again, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Ken Knight Message 23159 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- ymoharir
Namaste, That is what I am trying to present in these postings but also to prepare the way for direct experience, the eureka moment, when the flash of lightning releases the cows from the cave. Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAra claims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The future Yaska posting is going to be important on this matter of interpretation.
> Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed > in the same > sentence actually provides some additional leads to > further our > understanding of this expression. > > [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one > perceives, which may > or may not be the real. > > R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, > which may or may > not be necessarily true as far as the observer is > concerned. Based > on maayaa.
Again can we please be careful here. I am trying to avoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage because it would be an error to bring the later interpretation of mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rta and satya. > > Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret > these two terms > together rather than separate in order to further Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
> our own > understanding regardless on the subject matter and > therefore must > have become a part and parcel of the our rituals.
Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these two words on so many occasions I should have followed their lead and presented them together in the original key-words list. Your postings have encouraged me to try to correct the original omission.
I need people with the cultural background and experience to pick up these points and I thank you again,
Ken Knight Message 23160 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "ymoharir"
Dear KenJi:
I really appreciate you taking on such a difficult task on embarking on the current topic.
I just hope that people have patience with this extremely difficult subject matter.
Understanding the key phrases and words hold the keys for understanding. Just like if one want to understand trigonometry, one need to have some understanding of geometry and algebra. One must graduate from one grade before trying to rush on the higher grade with partial and/or superficial understanding.
We need instant gratification, even if that were possible, but believe me it will always lead to more questions of maaya.
Actually I am all ears and anxious to learn more on this subject. More & more I read, learn; more & more I realize how little I have understood.
Just my 1 and 1/4th Cents.
Regards,
Dr. Yadu Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> try to correct the original omission. > > I need people with the cultural background and > experience to pick up these points and I thank you > again, > Ken Knight ====== Message 23161 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "advaitins"
Namaste Kenji,
We could not have wished for a better expositor than you for this subject!
We would not want to hamper your approach in any way whatsoever, for you have the experience of many years in explaining this.
I derive great satisfaction in the sober advice of the Gita, in the following verses: 18:37; 15:15; 10:42
Gita
18:36. Now hear from Me, O scion of the Bharata dynasty, as regards the three kinds of joy: That in which one delights owing to habit, and certainly attains the cessation of sorrows; [S. and S.S. take the second line of this verse along with the next verse referring to sattvika happiness.-Tr.] Idanim, now; srnu, hear; me, from Me i.e. be attentive to what I say; tu, as regards; the trividham, three kinds of; sukham, joy, O scion of the Bharata dynasty. Yatra, that in which; ramate, one delights, derives pleasure; abhyasat, owing to habit, due to frequent repetition; and in the experinece of which joy one nigacchati, certainly attains; duhkhantam, the cessation of sorrow-. 18:37. That which is like poison in the beginning, but comparable to nectar in the end, and which, arises from the purity of one's intellect-that joy is spoken of as born of sattva. Yat, that joy which is; iva, like; visam, poison, a source of pain; agre, in the beginning-when it first comes in the early stages of (acquisition) of knowledge, detachment, meditation and absorption, since they involve great struggle; but amrtopamam, comparable to nectar; pariname, in the end, when it arises from the maturity of knowledge, detachment, etc.; and which atma-buddhi-prasadajam, arises from the purity (prasada), trasparence like water, of one's intellect (atma-buddhi); tat, that; sukham, joy; is proktam, spoken of, by the learned ones ;as sattvikam, born of sattva. Or, the phrase atma- buddhi-prasadajam may mean 'arising from the high degree of clearness Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
of that atma-buddhi (knowledge of or connected with the Self)'; therefore it is born of sattva. ------
15:15. And I am seated in the hearts of all. From Me are memory, knowledge and their loss. I alone am the object to be known through all the Vedas; I am also the originator of the Vedanta, and I Myself am the knower of the Vedas. And aham, I, as the Self; san-nivistah, am seated; hrdi, in the hearts, in the intellects; sarvasya, of all creatures. Therefore, with regard to all the creatures, mattah, from Me, from the Self; are Smrtih, memory; jnanam, knowledge; and their apohanam, loss. The knowledge and memory of these creatures who perform good deeds come from Me in accordance with the good deeds; similarly, the loss, deterioration, of memory and knowledge of those who perform evil deeds comes from Me in accordance with the evil deeds. Aham eva, I alone, the supreme Self; am the vedyah, object to be known; sarvaih, through all; vedaih, the Vedas. I am also the vedanta- krt, the originator of the Vedanta, i.e., the source of the traditional school of the teachings of Vedanta; and aham eva, I Myself; am the veda-vit, knower of the Vedas, the knower of the teachings of the Vedas. ------
10:42. Or, on the other hand, what is the need of your knowing this extensively, O Arjuna? I remain sustaining this whole creation in a special way with a part (of Myself). Athava, or, on the other hand; kim, what is the need; of tava jnatena, your knowing; etena bahuna, this extensively-but imcompletely-in the above manner, O Arjuna? You listen to this subject that is going to be stated in its fullness: Aham, I; sthitah, remain; vistabhya, sustaining, supporting, holding firmly, in a special way; idam, this; krtsnam, whole; jagat, creation; ekamsena, by a part, by a foot [The Universe is called a foot of His by virtue of His having the limiting adjunct of being its efficient and material cause.] (of Myself), i.e. as the Self of all things [As the material and the efficient cause of all things]. The Vedic text, 'All beings form a foot of His' (Rg., Pu. Su. 10.90.3; Tai. Ar. 3.12.3) support this. [A Form constituted by the whole of creation has been presented in this chapter for meditation. Thereby the unqualified transcendental Reality, implied by the word tat (in tattva-masi) and referred to by the latter portion of the Commentator's quotation (viz tripadasyamrtam divi: The immortal three-footed One is established in His own effulgence), becomes established.]
Regards,
Sunder Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> As I began, `This is the advaitin site, Jim, but not > as we know it.' If I am taking the wrong approach then > can the moderators please let me know, although my own > personal measure will be applied when we reach the > second stage of the study and when people have a > chance to look at the use of mAyA in the Vedas. ====== Message 23165 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- advaitins
>...... for you have the experience of many > years in explaining > this.
Namaste Sunderji,
Firstly thank you for the wonderful sruti (smriti if the Gita is to be so designated). Well chosen and very apt in its universality.
Please may I refer to your above statement for I do not want this site's membership to be misled. My study of the Rgveda is limited to two years at the most. I would not have dared to undertake such a task if it were not for your request.
If anything of value is to come out of the postings it is through the graceful presence and direction of Sri Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. However, I do also need those of you born into this tradition to guide and correct. Also, I fully respect the position of the orthodox who would suggest that as a mleccha I should not study such texts. However the prarabhda of this lifetime has had some strange events to work out, one being a vasana impelling a profound love of South Asian wisdom teaching. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Earlier today I sent the following to someone who had contacted me off list but I think that maybe it is of value to all. Swami Chinmayananda writes this in his commentary on the second sloka of the Kaivalya Upanishad: 'Thus Brahmavidya, the Science of Life, is to be understood according to the stanza," by means of faith (Sraddha), devotion (Bhakti) and meditation (Dhyana)". The statement is very significant. Faith has been described as "that faculty of the human intellect by which it can reflect and understand the deeper imports of the scriptural declarations and there-after assimilate those ideas into the very texture of the intellect". This power of understanding and assimilating new ideas, so as to evolve itself, is called Sraddha. Thus essentially, Sraddha is the function of the intellect. It is the power of Self-education.'
As we know, the root of Sraddha is Sru, to listen and it is the mindfulness of listening that we need to understand the sUktas of the RgVeda.
I will post the next step in the mAyA in the Vedas series later tonight.
Thank you for your encouragement,
Ken Knight ====== Message 23167 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, Following Sunderji's posting earlier today in which sattva and the balance of the gunas was described through the teachings of Sri Krishna. We do need to study Bhagavad Gita, 13 'Kshetra Kshetrajna Vibhaga Yoga' but maybe a story from Ramakrishna will be illustrative:
IN THE FOREST OF THE WORLD
Once a man was going through a forest, when ' three robbers fell upon him and robbed him of all his possessions. One of the robbers said, "What's the use Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
of keeping this man alive?" So saying, he was about to kill him with his sword, when the second robber interrupted him, saying: "Oh! no! What is the use of killing him? Tie his hand and foot and leave him here." The robbers bound his hands and feet and went away. After a while the third robber returned and said to the man: "Ah, I am sorry. Are you hurt? I will release you from your bonds." After setting the man free, the thief said: "Come with me. I will take you to the public high way." After a long time they reached the road. At this the man said: "Sir, you have been very good to me. Come with me to my house." "Oh, no!" the robber replied. " I can't go there. The police will know it."
This world itself is the forest. The three robbers prowling here are sattva, rajas, and tamas. It is they that rob a man of the Knowledge of Truth. Tamas wants to destroy him. Rajas binds him to the world. But sattva rescues him from the clutches of rajas and tamas. Under the protection of sattva, man is rescued from anger, passion and other evil effects of tamas. Further, sattva loosens the bonds of the world. But sattva also is a robber. It cannot give man the ultimate Knowledge of Truth, though it shows him the road leading to the Supreme Abode of God, Setting him on the path, sattva tells him: "Look yonder. There is your home." Even sattva is far away from the knowledge of Brahman.'
Best wishes
ken Knight
====== Message 23172 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, In order to take the step into understanding mAyA in the Rgveda saMhitA then this posting is a key one.
Ken Knight
That One and the Many Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
I begin by quoting again: 'All gods of one accord, with one intention, move unobstructed to a single purpose' for it demonstrates that although a diversity of names had been given to the various powers in the physical environment, there was also a clear understanding of a unity behind and communion of purpose in this diversity. This unity is clearly stated in the following índram mitráM váruNam agním aahur átho divyáH sá suparNó garútmaan | ékaM sád vípraa bahudhaá vadanty agníM yamám maataríshvaanam aahuH ||
'They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.' RV I.164.46
So the seers speculated as to the source of these multivarious sounds (names) and powers manifesting in their environment. But they were not so concerned with reaching the 'silence and stillness' that may exist beyond the sounds. They speak of ninyA vacAMsi, 'the words rising from the depths', but there is no use ( as far as I know at the moment ) of such words as 'mauna' or 'mouna' which is that silence which is later regarded as being the truth of Brahman, or that silence discovered by the 'knower of Brahman' while in union in stillness.
( Bit extra: There is a word that is used in the Rgveda for stillness and silence, nisvara, literally meaning 'no sound'. This is also a name for Agni. However it is not placed as the pinnacle of spiritual experience. Nisvara is used on two occasions, both being in pleas for help in dissolving demonic opponents seen to be the cause of problems. We may empathise with the poet when we are faced with a toothache or unwanted, persistent thoughts and willing them to quieten down, or in my case, chitchat when socialising:
vishvA agne.apa dahArAtIryebhistapobhiradaho jarUtham | pra nisvaraM cAtayasvAmIvAm || 'Burn up all malice with those flames, O Agni, wherewith of old thou burntest up Jarutha, And drive away in silence pain and sickness.' RV. VII.1.7 tápurvadhebhir ajárebhir atríNo ní párshaane vidhyataM yántu nisvarám || '(Send) Eternal, scorching darts; plunge the voracious ones within the depth, and let them sink without a Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
sound.' RV VII.104.5 There is a suggestion that this might be a request for help in overcoming an opponent in a forum for the poets to display their skills in debate or philosophical discourse such as that between Mandana and Shankara.)
The substratum that is all-pervading was titled 'That One', tad ekam, and it 'existed' through its own power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is unique in its self-witnessing power.
ná mRtyúr aasiid amR'taM ná tárhi ná raátryaa áhna aasiit praketáH | aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná paráH kíM canaása ||
'Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' RV. X.129.2
This is the nAsadIya: hymn of creation that has already been quoted in previous postings. As one of the most beautiful poems in our history it deserves an extended study on its own but I will briefly dip into it here. 'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the power of speech to explain, kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat:
kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat kúta aájaataa kúta iyáM vísRSTiH | arvaág devaá asyá visárjanenaáthaa kó veda yáta aababhuúva ||
'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?' RV X.129. 6
The devAH are here said to have appeared after the universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah, emanating out of the mysterious, fathomless, deep-sounding abyss, gahanaM gabhIram, within 'That One'. Emerging out of the gahanaM gabhIram, kAmah manifests the first atom of mind and it was through the power reflected in their heart/mind that the seers were able to penetrate the universal heart/mind and there discover the truth of existence and non-existence. The individual meets with the universal, vyashti with samashti, and that is the purpose of their tapas and yajna, austerities and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
sacrifice.
kAmastadagre samavartatAdhi manaso retaH prathamaM yadAsIt | sato bandhumasati niravindan hRdi pratISyAkavayo manias ||
'Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit ( mind or consciousness). Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.' RV.X 129. 4
Although these sages had come to understand through insight that the manifest forms require an unmanifest substratum, that sound needs silence as it were, they still acknowledged that the ultimate substratum of being and non-being would remain a mystery, ever ineffable, hidden in the great depths of the universal substratum:
iyáM vísRSTir yáta aababhuúva yádi vaa dadhé yádi vaa ná | yó asyaádhyakSaH paramé vyòman só aÑgá veda yádi vaa ná véda ||
'He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.' RV. X 129.7
As the many devaH emanate out of the single self-power, svadha, of 'That One' through some mysterious process, so too do the devaH and asuraH themselves assume different forms. Agni appears as the flame, the heat of the body and the lightning flash. It is all quite magical how it happens. ====== Message 23174 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: Benjamin
Namaste Ken-ji
Some comments...
>I begin by quoting again: 'All gods of one accord, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
>with one intention, move unobstructed to a single >purpose'
Notice the contrast with the Greek Gods, who were always quarreling. Also, if this goes way back to the Vedas, then it shows that Judaism did not invent the monotheistic concept, i.e. the fundamental unity of the Divine, although the Vedas were perhaps truer to Nature by allowing this unity to be expressed in a diversity of Gods and forms.
>But they were not so concerned with >reaching the 'silence and stillness' >that may exist beyond the sounds.
Well, was it not until the later Upanishads (source of Vedanta or 'end of Vedas') that we see the turn away from ritual to discussions of the 'ineffable' nature of Brahman? Perhaps chanting mantras can be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly phenomenal rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible insights of the Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent nature than ritual, being invisible and evocative. (I'm just speculating and trying to enter into the spirit of your discussion. By the way, one of the more beautiful aspects of Christianity is its music.)
>The substratum that is all-pervading was titled 'That >One', tad ekam, and it 'existed' through its own >power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is >unique in its self-witnessing power.
All quite Advaitic sounding! Notice also that by calling it simply 'That One', its ineffable nature is emphasized.
The Hymn of Creation, which you then quote, never ceases to impress.
>'Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: >no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. >That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature: >apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' RV. X.129.2
I might add that this also sounds like what one might experience in nirvikalpa samadhi. Hence a connection between the inmost depths of meditation and the creation of the cosmos, which are each but two sides of the same coin of consciousness. Indeed, they are the same absolutely.
>'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the >power of speech to explain...
Aha! I was right! Good guess! :-) Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
>The gods are later than this world's production. >Who knows then whence it first came into being?'
A significant advance over merely theistic religion. The ultimate principle of Reality is beyond even the notion of God or Ishwara, as emphasized by Shankara, Ramana and even the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart (viz. God vs. Godhead).
>The devAH are here said to have appeared after the >universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah,
Vedanta and Buddhism both have the insight that it is desire ... primarily desire to BE ... which is the impulse which caused the jiva to manifest in the world of maya. Schopenhauer said something like this too, I believe. This elemental impulse is a rude denial of the fundamentally peaceful and static and unlimited nature of Brahman, which has no need of change or form nor is capable of it, except through the device of illusion. This impulse to be is also the drive to *discriminate* different apparent entities in the homogeneous Consciousness, which produces the mind and all forms of duality and 'existence'. Hence, the fundamentally impure and turbulent nature of samsara, until transcended in wisdom, which is essentially a return to nondual Brahman while perhaps maintaining the multiplicity of samsara in a sublimated state.
And finally, some of my favorite lines:
>Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in >highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he >knows not.'
This breathtaking open-mindedness and unabashed inquiry suggests that even God (Ishwara) may not understand the ultimate truth. Contrast that with the dogmatic pieties of other religions. That is why I say that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them but rather to absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead...
>It is all quite magical how it happens.
A correct observation!
Hari Om! Benjamin ====== Message 23175 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
A few words about the nAsadIya-sUktaM (RV: X-129), the riks from which have been commented upon by Ken-ji in the above post and an earlier post.
It is interesting to note that this entire Rg-Vedic sUktam (X – 129) appears in the Krishna Yajur Veda also, though not in the Samhita portion, but in the Ashtaka portion of the Taittiriya Brahmana. As I had, as a boy, learnt the recitation of it that way, I was not aware that it was one of the sUktas of the Rg Veda and that it was how it was known across the world, until, later in my life, I happened to read AB Keith's History of Sankrit literature. In my learning, it was part of the `udaka-shAnti' mantras that pundits recite in chorus as an hour long recitation for sanctifying Water to be used for ritual purification in all important religious functions, whether at home or in a temple. And here – in this ritualistic use -- lies hidden a key point of advaitic philosophy, to which Ken-ji has referred to in his own original inimitable way.
Ken-ji writes: "it was through the power reflected in their heart/mind that the seers were able to penetrate the universal heart/mind and there discover the truth of existence and non- existence. The individual meets with the universal, vyashti with samashti, and that is the purpose of their tapas and yajna, austerities and sacrifice".
This, I may say, is the key-note of all religious rituals associated with Hinduism. Now the mantras that purify the water kept in a vessel, appeal to Gods Indra, Varuna and the like. But what is the source of power for these gods to purify the water? In fact there is a sukta in the Taittiriya brahmana called `aghamarshana-sukta' which one recites during one's bath, thereby helping his own spiritual purification along with the physical purification. And this sukta, as usual appeals to all gods like Varuna and Indra and to all rivers like Ganga, Yamuna and so on and plead with them to do the purification. Finally the sukta also brings in the sentences "yo'ham-asmi brahma-aham-asmi, aham-asmi brahma-aham-asmi; aham-eva-ahaM mAM juhomi" meaning so much as: `Whoever I am that is brahman, I am brahman, I am nothing but brahman'. Now try to find a logic why this should form part of a purification-mantra!
The only logic is this. No devata – Indra, Varuna, or Ganga or what Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
you have – can make you perfect and pure until all the impure, all the non-Self, have been thrown away. And that will happen only when the complete identification of not only this `I" but also everything of `idam' – this universe – is identified with brahman. And when such an identification takes place there is no more Varuna or Indra or Ganga – there is only brahman. It is only that state which is the state of perfection and purity. This is why every sUkta that is intended for purification, though appealing to `lesser' devatas, finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate the fact that `All this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind has to be touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of all tapas, yajna and ritual. And that is why, though I have been reciting the nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a routine portion of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it had to be there; for without it there can be no `meeting of the individual with the universal, vyashti with samashti'!
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. Profvk ====== Message 23176 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste Ken-ji,
Thanks again for a stimulating start.
A couple of comments on the above paragraph: The word 'speculated' seems to be an intellectual simplification to describe the ' mantra-drashta's ' (seer) utterance.
The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs in Rigveda in: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10136.htm
[7:56:8 ; 8:17:14]
HYMN CXXXVI. Kesins.
2 The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue. They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone before. 3 Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds: You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more. 4 The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God, Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air. 5 The Steed of Vata, Vayu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled, In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.
It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya upan. also.
When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would seem to be a natural conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15; Kena 1:5 & 8).
When silence (mounam) as the highest form of spiritual initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to Shankara to Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of Rigveda has no reference to it (as we understand it).
Your thoughts on this aspect would be very welcome.
Regards,
Sunder ====== Message 23178 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All,
How wonderful, how wonderful, how wonderful!!! Three wonderful replies. The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations. I am going to settle to reply to each of yours but may not be able to post until this evening, so please forgive any tardiness. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Reading your three replies I was minded of the following. Is it scripture? I think so. Where is it from? That sun-rise of inspiration in an indivdual known as Kenneth Grahame. It is extracted from a chapter...'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'...from a children's book, 'Wind in the Willows'.
Scene. A young otter has gone missing and two friends, Rat and Mole, set off in search of the youngster even though it is late in the night. Would our Vedic ancestors have smiled in recognition? I think so:
'The line of the horizon was clear and hard against the sky, and in one particular quarter it showed black against a silvery climbing phosphorescence that grew and grew. At last, over the rim of the waiting earth the moon lifted with slow majesty till it swung clear of the horizon and rode off, free of moorings; and once more they began to see surfaces; meadows widespread, and quiet gardens, and the river itself from bank to bank, all softly disclosed, all washed clean of mystery and terror, all radiant again as by day, but with a difference that was tremendous Their old haunts greeted them again in other raiment, as if they had slipped away and put on this pure new apparel and come quietly back, smiling as they shyly waited to see if they would be recognized again under it. Fastening their boat to a willow, the friends landed in this silent, silver kingdom, and patiently explored the hedges, the hollow trees, the tunnels and their little culverts, the ditches and dry waterways. Embarking again and crossing over, they worked their way up the stream in this manner, while the moon, serene and detached in a cloudless sky, did what she could, though so far off, to help them in their quest; till her hour came and she sank earthwards reluctantly, and left them, and mystery once more held field and river. Then a change began slowly to declare itself. The horizon became clearer, field and tree came more into sight, and somehow with a different look; the mystery began to drop away from them. A bird piped suddenly, and was still; and a light breeze sprang up and set the reeds and bulrushes rustling. Rat, who was in the stern of the boat, while Mole sculled, sat up suddenly and listened with a passionate intentness. Mole, who with gentle strokes was just keeping the boat moving while he scanned the banks with care, looked at him with curiosity. "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it. For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound once more and go on listening to it for ever."
"No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more. Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound. "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet! Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be for us." The Mole, greatly wondering, obeyed. "I hear nothing myself,' he said, "but the wind playing in the reeds and rushes and osiers." The Rat never answered, if indeed he heard. Rapt, transported, trembling, he was possessed in all his senses by this new divine thing that caught up his helpless soul and swung and dandled it, a powerless but happy infant, in a strong sustaining grasp. In silence Mole rowed steadily and soon they came to a point where the river divided, a long backwater branching off to one side. With a slight movement of his head Rat, who had long dropped the rudder-lines, directed the rower to take the backwater. The creeping tide of light gained and gained, and now they could see the colour of the flowers that gemmed the water's edge. "Clearer and nearer still," cried the Rat joyously. "Now you must surely hear it! Ah! At last !I see you do!" Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw the tears on his comrade's cheeks, and bowed his head and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole, and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. '
If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for you. Do they find the baby otter ? Read the book. Have we heard the 'sound' of the Vedas? I think so.
Ken Knight Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
====== Message 23179 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
Namaste Sunder-ji,
Many apologies for this error, I had slipped into academic speak in which 'intellectual simplification' is the only acceptable PC means of communication. Also, I should not have been so specific in mentioning the rishi's. What I was trying to present was a section building upon the earlier 'power and the glory' posting, and suggesting that this immense leap in human consciousness to internalise the immense power perceived to be driving the 'emanation', would lead to a general enquiry for all humanity. This should be the same for us while we cannot claim to be rishis. > > The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs > in Rigveda in: > 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -
I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do you search and find such words. I downloaded the complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any other method? I certainly found no more examples than those you posted.)
Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent ascetic from these references or do you think that this is a later meaning? In the two hymns from the earlier collection a fair amount of interpretation has to be made to get at that definition. The later one from Book X could give such an interpretation but with no back up reference to mouna/mauna somewhere in the Rgveda I am not so sure. In VIII.17 we have the praise of Indra as the pillar, the unmoving tower of strength towards which the wise, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
discriminating, firm munis approach in friendship. But I do not see in this the idea that such close companionship is the ultimate silence as 'taught' by Dakshinamurti. Could be but.... What can be noted clearly is again the acknowledgement here of immense power that will release the cows from the cave, or inspiration from the cave of the heart. I keep using this imagery because that has been my experience, an experience of an immense sound suddenly released from within 'me'while sounding Sanskrit vowels.
In VII.4,8 then it is this power in the form of the Maruts, released from their mother's womb by the lightning bolt of Indra, Not keen on Griffith's translation here. Here again, the muni is one who has been inspired by the immense power, in this case the forceful winds of the Maruts.
This connection with the Maruts is confirmed by the later hymn which you quoted at length. The Muni is able to move freely in the subtle realm, with insight understanding those mysteries that are hidden to those engrossed in physical names and forms, and he is driven, powered by the forces let loose by Indra. Here are the relevant Rks. VIII.17.14 vaástoS pate dhruvaá sthuúNaáMsatraM somyaánaam | drapsó bhettaá puraáM sháshvatiinaam índro múniinaaM sákhaa ||
'Strong pillar thou, Lord of the home, armour of Soma-offerers: The drop of Soma breaketh all the strongholds down, and Indra is the Rsis' Friend' VII.56.4 etaáni dhiíro niNyaá ciketa pR'shnir yád uúdho mahií jabhaára || ' A sage was he who knew these mysteries, what in her udder mighty Prsni (mother of maruts) bore. ' VII.56.8 shubhró vaH shúSmaH krúdhmii mánaaMsi dhúnir múnir iva shárdhasya dhRSNóH ||
'Bright is your spirit, wrathful are your minds: your bold troop's minstrel is like one inspired.'
If anyone else comes by this posting and wonders about the Maruts:
'The Maruts were minor storm deities who in Vedic times were the sons of Rudra and the attendants of Indra. There number is variously given as two, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
twenty-seven, or sixty. They were aggressive and violent in character. They were the drivers of the clouds, the bringers of wind, the fellers of trees, and the crushers of mountains. They sometimes accompanied Indra into battle, and attended him at his court. In the Ramayana the story is told of their birth. Their mother, the goddess Diti, wanted to give birth to a son who would rival Indra in power, so she planned to remain pregnant for an entire century to accomplish this. Indra learned of this and was worried about it. To upset her plan, he hurled his thunderbolt at her womb while she was still pregnant, shattering it. The Maruts were born from the single, splintered fetus. '
> It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya > upan. also. > > When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would > seem to be a natural > conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15; > Kena 1:5 & 8). > > When silence (mounam) as the highest form > of spiritual > initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to > Shankara to > Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of > Rigveda has no > reference to it (as we understand it). >Your thoughts on this aspect would be very > welcome.
Certainly I understand this. Also, I am sure that the Rishi's only spoke, devised the mantras, in order to teach. But having spoken, people became too attached to the rituals and the upanishads had to restore the inner meaning so they moved towards and emphasised the unmoving, the nirguna brahman. Now this leads us to my problem with mAyA as it was being taught to me by pseudo-advaitin schools in the UK. But I must not proceed too quickly on that one. It is better that I look back to the excellent discussion we had on this site in April on purna. That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a single drop of water or an ocean.
But those are only some first thoughts. Maybe after Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
dog-walking in England's Chennai-like heat today I will have some inspiration. More likely I will need your further explanation,
Ken Knight ====== Message 23180 of 23498 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
our most beloved ken-knightji makes a stunning observation...
" That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a single drop of water or an ocean."
YES! how do we define 'silence' in the realm of spirituality?
Is it
The silence of speech ? The silence of senses ? The silence of violent restraint ? The silence of false ego or deluded mind ?
on another note,
In the manu smriti, it is said ...
"maunat satyam visisyate"
"Truth is superior to silence"
The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" - one has undertaken the vow of silence.
Rg-veda hymn X, 136:
"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have gone before."
This indeed is an intriguing subject.
From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!!
AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL?
later , i will post the Hymn to Vak ?(the wisdom of the word) from rg Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
veda.
love and regards ======1Message 23181 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2 Msg # 3From: "adi_shakthi16"
6From the Rg Veda, The rishi, the sage through whom this revelation 7is made, to whom this hymn is revealed is a woman. The name of the 8great master through whom this hymn was revealed is not known. All it 9says is that the rishi, the master, the revealer of this hymn is 10known as Vak (pronounced vaak), meaning "The Divine Speech.
11Her Sacred Formless Form
12I who am one with the totality of existence, consciousness, and bliss
13I wander with all the Gods of the earth, sky, and heaven.
14I am the Sustainer of the Lords of the Sun, the Seas, the Thunder and
15Fire (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Agni).
16I am the Sustainer of Soma, the ever-flowing mystic Water of the 17Universe
18that streams through space.
19I am the One who bears fruit for all who seek Divine Love.
20I am the One who offers Grace to those who sacrifice
21and honor the Divine Beings.
22I am the Lady ruling the whole Universe.
23I am the One who brings wealth of joy to my worshippers.
24I am the dominant One among those who are united with
25the Divine Reality.
26In all these various forms I have manifested only Myself, I have 27entered
28all the elements of the Universe. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
29It is I to whom all the deities give service.
30Whoever consumes Food does so only by my Grace and Power.
31Whoever sees, breathes, hears, utters a cry, receives these
32experiences through my Divine aid.
33Those, who do not know Me in this Power, in this Glory, through their
34ignorance, they fall very low in the levels of existence.
35Therefore, oh learned beings, I teach you this Essential
36Knowledge, which can be gained only through deep faith in Me.
37I shall teach you this Essence of Reality which is followed both by
38human beings and by the gods.
39Whomsoever I wish to protect, him I protect and make powerful with
40my Grace.
41For he attains the Unity with the Creator and finds the Knowledge that
42is hidden from beyond one's eyes.
43I am the Creator of all the Spaces that are the progenitors of this 44earth.
45In the Ocean from which all the beings are born and in all the Waters
46of the mind,
47It is because of Me that the Unity of the spiritual force flows.
48It is I, who fill this whole Universe, touching even the highest 49heaven
50with my Body.
51When I, the First Cause of the Universe, begin to create
52without any other source impelling me,
53like a self-propelled wind,
54I move forward by my own Volition.
55For, I am beyond both earth and heaven.
56Oh, indeed such is my Glory. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
57This is the most ancient statement of the divinity of an incarnate 58being in the literature of the world spoken by a woman.
59Enjoy the hymn of Divine speech!
60Message 23182 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 61 Msg # 62From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
65--- In [email protected], ken knight
67> > The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs 68> > in Rigveda in: 69> > 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 - 70> 71> I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do 72> you search and find such words. I downloaded the 73> complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and 74> English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any 75> other method? I certainly found no more examples than 76> those you posted.) 77> 78> Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent 79> ascetic from these references or do you think that 80> this is a later meaning?
81Namaste Ken-ji,
82Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance is available online:
83http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.h 84tml
85In the context of 'eternalness' of Vedic mantras, one has to 86wonder if a historical view of 'earlier and later' meanings would be 87a valid distinction.
88Regards,
89Sunder
90[P.S. Please do not worry about 'tardiness' in replying. You may 91certainly keep questions in 'storage' for a later response, if the 92question and response would likely cause a 'detour' in your planned Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
93presentations. Chandogya upan. 7:1-26, Sanatkumara's instructions to 94Narada, gives an idea of how many such detours can occur!] 95Message 23183 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 96 Msg # 97From: ken knight
100--- Benjamin
103As always you are able to give us thoughtful 104consideration of what has been presented. Each of your 105comments requires further comment but I have taken up 106only one. One becomes many indeed!!. 107> 108> Perhaps 109> chanting mantras can 110> be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly 111> phenomenal 112> rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible 113> insights of the 114> Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent 115> nature than 116> ritual, being invisible and evocative.
117I do not know enough about 'mantra' to speak 118authoritatively but in the context of this June topic 119here are a few points. 120Mantra has power and the source of that power in the 121truth and order (satyam/Rtam) that stands as a pillar 122at the very centre of the Rgvedic universe. This pure 123power is observed 'in the heart' of the rishi and 124encapsulated in the mantra and then is released upon 125the correct utterance. 126I see this as the first step. Rituals form around that 127mantra. Then comes interpretation and explanation 128which superimpose error on the original meaning. This 129is why the oral tradition has to be so designed to 130protect the mantra...or rather protect the users of 131the mantra from impurity. We could look at a number 132of relevant hymns but I do not want to take up too 133much cyber-space for what is essentially another 134single topic for discussion. The philosophical 135interpretations of the Upanishads etc. are already 136contained in the original sound of the mantra for 137those with ears to hear and eyes to see. I do not see 138them as an evolutionary step in superiority. 139Big topic this one. There is an American, Ellison Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
140Banks Findly, who has written an excellent essay on 141the Rgvedic aspect of mantra in 'Mantra', ed. Harvey 142Alper SUNY PRESS 1989.
143I have previously mentioned the writing of Dr 144Ramachandra Rao and am posting some of his words below 145on this topic.
146'Mantras 147Rao 148The Vedic mantras are not couched in common language. 149The Vedic language, especially in the RgVeda, is meant 150to embody thoughts lofty and profound born directly 151out of deep concentration or tapas. The words found 152their forms simultaneously with the thoughts; the 153Sabda (sound) and artha ( meaning) were coeval and 154formed one mass……. 155Its (archaic Sanskrit) chief aim was self-expression. 156But there is a definite mystery about it, because the 157seers were seeking to express in a pattern of words 158what was in reality beyond words. And the pattern of 159words which they employed (viz, the metrical form or 160chhandas) becomes important for this very reason. 161Hence the alternative expression 'Chhandas' for the 162Veda. This is also why the rnantra is not easily 163intelligible, unless one strives to delve deep into 164the inner meaning, hidden in the exterior sound. The 165mantra is said to be well-chiselled in the heart 166(Rgveda. 2,35,2 hrda su-tashtam mantram'): it provides 167an insight 'into the hidden truth beyond the words and 168other expressions' (ibid. 10,85,16 'yad guha tad 169addhatava id viduh'). Satapatha-brahmana (10,3,5,13) 170speaks of mantra as knowledge of the hidden truth 171(addha-vidva). the truth that settles all doubts (cf. 172Chhandogyaupanishad, 3, 14,4 'addhâ na vichikitsastii, 173and affords certainty to ones knowledge (cf. Rgvcda, 1743, 54, 11; 10, III, 7 and 10, 129, 6 'addha veda'). 175The mantra thus embodies a vision of cosmic order or 176truth that manifests itself everywhere and at all 177times (Rgveda 9,76.4). Rta, the universal, eternal and 178immutable law is in fact the reality. The Vedic poet 179saw it operating everywhere, in sun, moon, mountain, 180tree, man, beast and rain, wind and bird; and he 181firmly believed in it not only as the natural order 182but as moral law. It was the source of plenty; and it 183destroys sins (Rgveda, 4. 23.8-10); it is how 184Providence manifests itself (8. 100, 34, and 4, 40. 1855). There is no truth apart from this (MahAnArayanIya. 1861,6). It shines forth as all powers and qualities, as 187beauty (Sri), glory (bharga), splendour (mahas), 188brilliance (varchas). power (ojas), intelligence 189(dhIh), valour (sAhasa), light (jyoti), and life 190(jiva). The poet also recognized the supremacy of Rta Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
191in his own life. Human life, like anything else in the 192world, is guided by Rta. ……. 193Such being the importance of the mantra. there must be 194a concern to render it most effective, and this is 195done by prefacing the mantra with the triad (trika) as 196mentioned above( name of seer, metrical form of the 197mantra and name of the deity being invoked). When the 198triad is specifically mentioned, it indicates that 199what follows is a mantra; and that it is not a formal 200or ordinary communication. It is not the utterance of 201the three details (rshi, chhandas and devata) that is 202as important as the knowledge and calling to mind of 203these details (anusmarana). That is why Prapahcha-sAra 204and Rudra-kalpa-druma say that all three must be borne 205in the heart ('hRdi pratishthA) for mantra to become 206significant and effective.
207> That is why I say 208> that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them 209> but rather to 210> absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead... 211>
212And from my earlier posting today: 213'Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as 214the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a 215wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw 216the tears on his comrade's cheeks, and bowed his head 217and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed 218by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then 219the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand 220with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole, 221and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the 222light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as 223they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but 224for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. '
225Sorry this is so long but these are important matters
226ken 227Message 23184 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 228 Msg # 229From: Raghavarao Kaluri
232Namaste all. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
233In the context of 'harmony of sound' and 'silence', a 234previous relevant post is referred: 235http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/message/15528
236It is interesting to note that 'When the Word was with 237God' ... what was it ? Probably 'silence' ...
238With Love, 239Raghava 240Message 23186 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 241 Msg # 242From: ken knight
245--- Raghavarao Kaluri
256Namaste Raghava, 257You sound like an etymologist after my own style; if 258it works for you at a particular time then it is 259right. 260I am afraid that etymologically Word comes from the 261IDG root WER meaning to speak. 262OK. Let us take a step into 'speak' and speech. You 263will find a relationship given with the word spark. 264Now that is getting interesting. Is Agni creeping in 265here? Now this is related to the IDG root SPERK or 266SPREK which comes from the Sanskrit root sphUrj, to 267burst forth or be displayed. Now this is VERY 268interesting. We are now in sphota country and 269Bhartrihari and the four levels of speech. We must 270put that one on hold for the moment. 271In the John prologue, what is very amazing is that 272no-one takes any notice of the next verse: 273'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has 274already repeated himself three times, why do so again? 275What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in 276the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam.
277If you take a look at 'adi-shakti's'...OK. I know his Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
278real name but am not telling.... post of today you 279will find that he quotes a great RgVedic hymn of vAk. 280It is a very difficult one to translate so have a look 281around the net for other translations. This is closer 282to the Greek 'Logos' which has been translated as 283Word. Interesting to look at but my own conclusion is 284that vAk and logos contain different ideas. Millions 285of books and essays on all this for you to explore.
286Happy studies
287ken Knight 288Message 23188 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 289 Msg # 290From: [email protected] 291Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 12:30 am 292Subject: Re: [advaitin] Re: June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many
293Namaste, 294Adi Shakthi wrote:
295In the manu smriti, it is said ... 296"maunat satyam visisyate" 297"Truth is superior to silence"
298The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" - 299one has undertaken the vow of silence.
300Rg-veda hymn X, 136:
301"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow 302hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have 303gone before." 304This indeed is an intriguing subject. 305From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!! 306AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL? 307------
308Yes, it makes an intuitive sense. 309This brings to mind what the American poet Ezra Pound said of his poems: 310"These words were written by a man believing in silence who could not withhold 311himself from speaking." Pound was well aware that poetry was a spoken (or sung) 312art; his major long works are called "Cantos." In a way, Pound indicates that 313the poet follows this 'virtuous cycle,' as it were; from sound comes speech; 314from speech comes silence; and from silence comes the truth, which the poet 315allows to pass cleanly through himself. This intuitive process perhaps 316resembles that that of the creation as well as that way in which Vedas were 317heard and revealed by the rishis. 318Does this, in turn, make any sense?
319Warm regards, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
320Kenneth 321Message 23189 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 322 Msg # 323From: "Chittaranjan Naik"
326Select A Loan 327 Refinance 328 Buy a Home 329 Home Improvement 330 Home Equity Loan 331 Debt Consolidation Loan 332 333Namaste Kenji,
334--- In [email protected], ken knight
335> 'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has 336> already repeated himself three times, why do so again? 337> What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in 338> the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam.
339I wonder how 'same' relates to 'saman' or 'samanya'. I find it 340interesting that the denotation of a word in Advaita is its samanya. 341It is also interesting that Plato's ideal forms tend to samanya.
342Regards, 343Chittaranjan 344Message 23190 of 23502 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 345 Msg # 346From: ken knight
349--- [email protected] wrote:
350> 351> Yes, it makes an intuitive sense. 352> This brings to mind what the American poet Ezra 353>In a way, Pound indicates that the 354> poet follows this 'virtuous cycle,' as it were; 355> from sound comes speech; from speech comes silence; 356> and from silence comes the truth, which the poet 357> allows to pass cleanly through himself. This 358> intuitive process perhaps resembles that that of the 359> creation as well as that way in which Vedas were 360> heard and revealed by the rishis. 361> Does this, in turn, make any sense? Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
362> 363Good Morning Kenneth, 364Not only sense, this is knowledge. It is why the Vedas 365are Chhandas from which we get the English 'chant'. 366I have said this in another posting but maybe it 367should be repeated here: In order for the mantra to 368have full effect a triad of 'names' are pronounced: 369the name of the Rshi, the name of the deity and the 370name of the chant which establishes the order. This 371draws, focusses these powers into the word-act. 372These Chhandas, metres, count the number of syllables 373and 'games' are played with their order. If you know 374the music of Bach then you will find in it the play of 375the Chhandas. 376The most famous of these is the gAyatrI. In this case 377the stanza usually consists of 24 syllables, variously 378arranged, but usually as a triplet of 3 pAdas of 8 379syllables each, or in one line of 16 syllables and a 380second of 8 syllables. 381There are 11 varieties of this metre and the number of 382syllables varies accordingly from 19 to 33.
383That, of course, is just information, but it helps to 384unpick the mantras when the metre is known although 385the real understanding of a mantra is in its wholeness 386which can only he heard and not analysed.
387Which takes us back to your own observation. 388Really words should have a built-in suicide gene. Once 389their knowledge has been revealed they should 390disappear, bit like the 'creation/emanation' really. 391For example, I used this little imaginary tale 392recently: 393'Imagine that at the station of our departure there is 394a man trying to engage others in conversation. 395"Do you know the word upAsana?" he asks one traveller. 396"No," is the forceful reply as the traveller rushes 397by, "and I have no time to find out." 398So he repeats the question to another who is standing 399quietly by the platform. 400"Yes," is the immediate answer. "It comes from upa 401meaning near and Asana (root as) which means a 402posture. So it may be understood as 'sitting near', 403for example. Some also say that it means meditation." 404"Thank you," says our questioner. "What are you 405sitting near in meditation?" 406"You do not understand," the other commands. "The 407'sitting near' does not mean sitting near anything. It 408only indicates that I am sitting near myself, atman, 409or that through the intention to meditate I am 410approaching that atman. However as atman is the 411universal self, brahman, in reality there is no 412separation and no sitting near. Proximity has no place Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
413in omnipresence. So I ask you in return, what do you 414think it means to say that you are sitting near 415oneself?" 416"I see that you are presenting a non-dual teaching. 417And so you will understand my silence if I fail to 418reply."
419This went on a bit more but you get the gist of it.
420I will soon post some stuff on YAska and the fruition 421of language in the Rgveda and I look forward to your 422comments on that,
423Ken Knight 424 425 426 Message 23191 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 427 Msg # 428From: "adi_shakthi16"
431Ken-knightji comments ...
432" If you take a look at 'adi-shakti's'...OK. I know his 433real name but am not telling.... post of today you 434will find that he quotes a great RgVedic hymn of vAk. "
435Dear-heart, adi_ shakthi16 is a fe-male and her real name is no big 436secret - it is no revelation!!! smiles !!! what is in a name, anyway? 437A Rose is a Rose is a Rose ...
438on another note, kenneth-ji, it is my pleasure to bring to this 439audience here the hymn to the sacred word , known as a song to the 440holy wisdom, with an address to Brhaspati, "the lord of the holy 441word" , the inspiirer of sacred poetry.
4421. O Lord of the Holy Word! That was the first beginning of the Word 443when the Seers fell to naming each object. That which was best anmd 444purest, deeply hidden within their hearts, they revealed by the power 445of their love.
4462. The Seers fashioned the Word by the means of their mind sifting it 447as with sieves the corn is sifted. Thus friends may recognize each 448other's friendship. An auspicious seal upon their word is set.
4493. They followed by sacrifice the path of the Word and found her 450entered among the Seers. They led her forth and distributed her among 451many . In unison the seven Singers chant her. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
4524.*** Yet certain ones, though seeing, may not see her., and other 453ones, though hearing, may not hear her. But to some the Word reveals 454herself quite freely, like fair-robed bride surrendering to her 455husband.***
4565. One man they call morose, unbending in friendship, him they do 457not send forward to competitions. He goes on his way deluded, his 458endeavours sterile. Void both of fruit and flowers was the word he 459heard.
4606. No longer does the man who has abandoned a congenial friend 461possess a share in the Word. *Vain is his hearing, whatsoever he 462hears. He does not recognize the path of goodness.*
4637. Friends, though endowed alike with sight and hearing , may yet in 464quickness of mind be quite unequal. Some are like ponds that reach to 465mouth or shoulder , while others resemble lakes deep enough for 466bathing.
4678. When Brahmins sacrifice together in friendship, forming within 468their hearts inspirations of their spirit, their wise resolves may 469leave one man behind, while others, though reckoned as Brahmins, 470stray away.
4719. Those who advance not in this direction or that, who are not 472knowers of Brahman or Soma-prsessers, they have obtained the word in 473sinful fashion. Being ignorant, they weave a faulty thread.
47410. His comrades all rejoice when their friend returns covered with 475glory , proclaimed victor in the assembly. He frees them from their 476sin, provides them with food. Prepared is he, fit for the compeition.
47711. One man with utmost care creates the verses, another sings a song 478in chanted meters. A third, the Brahmin tells forth the wisdom of 479being.
480RG VEDA X, 71
481folks ! look at verse 4 in relation to verse 3. beautiful metaphor 482indeed! The communication of the Word is like the *union* of man and 483woman , for the word comes and offers herself as a bride to her 484husband , to the one who is worthy to receive her. (something that 485kenji has been stressing over and over again) The communicator , the 486communication .... and no gaps in between!
487The word UNITES ; The Word Divides !
488A word is sacxred and powerful . Shabda is Sound; Sphota is eternal 489sound.
490THUS THE WORD HAS BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT ! IT REVEALS AND IT CONCELAS! Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
491satyameva jayate! (truth triumphs!)
492courtesy
493http://www.adishakti.org/pdf_files/shruti%28vedic_experience%29.pdf
494enjoy the beauty and splendor of rg vedic vaks! 495Message 23192 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 496 Msg # 497From: "adi_shakthi16"
500Thank you Kenneth-ji !
501first , for that wonderful quotation from Ezra Pound.
502Your post not only makes sense but is full of wisdom.
503As you may be aware, Veda is derived from the root word 'vid' which 504means 'to know' . So, veda means 'knowledge' . Vak means the 'word' 505and in my language Tamizh, there is a phrase called 'veda vak' - for 506example , to me whatever my guru says is 'veda vak' that is whatever 507my guru says requires my implicit obedience because it is as sacred 508as the word from the vedas ( veda vak) !
509And VAC is very sacred and powerful.
510In the path of Knowledge ,( Jnana marga ) Guru's Upadesha (spiritual 511instructions) becomes the sacred 'vac'
512in the path of devotion (bhakti marga), Vak takes the form of nama- 513japa or prayer re, repeating the names of God to reach the lotus feet 514of the Divine.
515so, indeed , kenneth-ji - you are absolutely right when you say
516"This intuitive process perhaps resembles that that of the creation 517as well as that way in which Vedas were heard and revealed by the 518rishis."
519YES ! and indeed a big YES!
520"The vedic Vak does not contain revelation. She is revelation.She was 521at the beginning. She is the whole of the Shruti. The shruti is 522Vak. " ( raimon panikkar)
523and note how Vak (word) is being referred to as 'she' (feminine Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
524gender) and later on when the time is right, i will post the Devi 525Sukta , a powerful hymn from the Rig veda , where the Vak is revered 526as the Queen . " i am the ruling Queen, the amasser of treasures, 527full of wisdom, first of those worthy of worship. In various places, 528the divine powers have set me. I enter many homes and take numerous 529forms."
530thank you , once again for all your wonderful posts.
531Aum Iti! 532Message 23194 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 533 Msg # 534From: ken knight
537--- adi_shakthi16
544AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAghhhh
545All this time I have been discoursing with a lady and 546I did not know it. 547The feminine, the power of the powerful without which 548the powerful is powerless, Shakti, consort of Shiva, I 549prostrate and plead stupidity as the reason for my 550error.
551Now I know that you in your limited form behind 552adi-shakthi16 like a little Sufism so may I offer some 553Rabi'a, the great lady Sufi poet, who one beautiful, 554sunny day was beckoned by her maid to go into the 555garden. 556'Rabi'a, come into the garden to enjoy what the 557Creator has made.' 558From inside the house Rabi'a replied: 559'Come inside and meet the Creator.'
560Or my favourite of all is her prayer: 561'O God! If I worship Thee in fear of hell, burn me in 562hell; and if I worship Thee in hope of paradise, 563exclude me from paradise; but if I worship Thee for 564Thine own sake, withhold not Thine Everlasting 565Beauty.'
566So great lady, you have directed us to RV.X.71.4: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
567'One man hath ne'er seen Vak, and yet he seeth: one 568man hath hearing but hath never heard her. 569But to another hath she shown her beauty as a fond 570well-dressed woman to her husband.'
571This verse is crucial to our journey with YAska which 572will begin with a posting tonight. When I first met 573this 'metaphor' in the Upanishads I wondered where 574such imagery had come from. Then came the study of vAk 575and all was revealed.
576In recent times there been a re-awakening to the 577intuitive, feminine, aspect of mind. ( I do not mean 578the superficial pyscho-babble emanating from some 579universities). South Asian traditions have always had 580this as central. Father Bede Griffiths, a Benedictine 581monk, spent the second half of his life in India where 582he encountered theo-philosophies that expanded his 583patristic Christian modes of thought. He had a 584profound experience of The Holy Mother and was able to 585write of the need for an inner meeting of the male and 586female: 587'...... This meeting must take place at the deepest 588level of the human consciousness. It is an encounter 589ultimately between the two fundamental dimensions of 590human nature: the male and the female – the masculine, 591rational, active, dominating power of the mind, and 592the feminine, intuitive, passive and receptive power. 593Of course, these two dimensions exist in every human 594being and in every people and race. But for the past 595two thousand years, coming to a climax in the present 596century, the masculine, rational mind has gradually 597come to dominate Western Europe and has now spread its 598influence all over the world.' 599I don't necessarily agree with some of the qualities 600he gives as masculine and feminine.
601To make futher amends I am posting below a list of the 602female Rshis(RshikA) and the references for their Rks. 603Some people may not be aware that there are/were many 604RshikA: 605GhoshA (Kakshivati, Rgveda 10, 39), Sraddhã (KAmAyanI, 60610, 151), SikatA (NivAvarI, 9, 86), Agastya-svasãA 607(10. 60), SArpa rAjñI (10, 189), IndrasnushA 608(Vasukra-patniI 10, 28), GodhA (10, 134), Nadi (3, 60933), LopAmudrA (1, 179), ViSvavArA (AtreyI , 5, 28), 610VAk (AmbhranI, 10, 125), YamI (VaivasvatI, 10, 10), 611SASvatI (AngirasI, 8, 1), SaramA (DevaSunI, 10, 108), 612SUryA (SAvitri, 10, 85). SachI (PulomI, 10, 159), JuhU 613(Brahma-jAyA, 10, 109), DakshinA (PrajApatyA 10, 107), 614Aditi (DAkshAyanI, 10, 72), RAtri (Bharadvaji, 10, 615127), RomaSA (Brahma-vAdiinI, 1, 126 and 1 27) and 616ApalA (8, 7) Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
617Best wishes 618If I have been admonished 619Kenneth Knight 620otherwise I am still Ken Knight 621Message 23195 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 622 Msg # 623From: ken knight
626--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
651Namaste Professor, 652Sorry to have delayed my reply. You have responded so 653well to my appeal at the beginning of this topic for 654those with practical experience to help me out. So 655many, many thanks. 656No doubt all births are lawful, each of us in the 657right place, but how much I yearn to have had one such 658as yours where the Vedas were there to be learned by 659heart. Although I am sure that you also wished to be 660elsewhere at times. 661One of the founder members of this group, Madhava 662Turumella, has met up with me a couple of times Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
663recently and whenever I mention to him some translated 664Sloka he rattles off the Sanskrit learned in his 665youth. All I learned was about Jack and Jill going up 666some hill, and it takes me ages to learn a single 667stanza in Sanskrit. Come to think of it, a lot of the 668mantras translate into sentences that seem to have as 669much meaning as Jack and Jill going up their hill. 670I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri 671Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any 672understanding shines through these postings it is 673through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are 674invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two 675wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this 676topic. Clearly their influence is coming to our aid 677because your last posting, as well as other members' 678postings of the last two days, prepares the way for my 679next one. Always a good sign when this happens during 680discussions. 681I had intended replying to your post step by step but 682found it had already been written in the YAska posting 683which I will put out tonight.
684However, to return to the individual dissolving in the 685universal: RV.I.164. Here is the basic question for 686all of us:
6876 ácikitvaañ cikitúSash cid átra kaviín pRchaami 688vidmáne ná vidvaán | 689ví yás tastámbha SáL imaá rájaaMsy ajásya ruupé kím 690ápi svid ékam ||
691'I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one 692all ignorant for sake of knowledge, 693What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath 694stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'
695It is this question that leads into the famous 'two 696birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.
697To approach any event thinking that we know what is 698going on is fraught with danger and first we 699acknowledge that we are not actually in charge of 700things.
701dyaúr me pitaá janitaá naábhir átra bándhur me maataá 702pRthivií mahiíyám | 703uttaanáyosh camvòr yónir antár átraa pitaá duhitúr 704gárbham aádhaat ||
705'Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here. 706This great earth is my kin and Mother. 707Between the wide-spread world-halves is the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
708birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ 709within it.'
710Next the rishi asks these great questions.
711pRchaámi tvaa páram ántam pRthivyaáH pRchaámi yátra 712bhúvanasya naábhiH | 713pRchaámi tvaa vR'SNo áshvasya rétaH pRchaámi vaacáH 714paramáM vyòma ||
715' I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is 716the centre of the world, I ask 717thee. 718I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of 719highest heaven where Speech abideth.'
720The answers he gets are a great teaching. I am sure 721that they must be central to all that you were given 722in your childhood.
723iyáM védiH páro ántaH pRthivyaá ayáM yajñó bhúvanasya 724naábhiH | 725ayáM sómo vR'SNo áshvasya réto brahmaáyáM vaacáH 726paramáM vyòma ||
727'This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this 728sacrifice of ours is the world's centre. 729The Stallion's seed prolific is the Soma; this Brahman 730highest heaven where Speech abideth.'
731Sorry. The above is all rather disjointed but my son, 732now less than 24 hours away from emigrating, suddenly 733wants more conversation than he has had with me for 734the past year. Hence telephone interruptions while 735typing,
736Thank you for your valuable contributions,
737Ken Knight 738Message 23196 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 739 Msg # 740From: "Lady Joyce"
743Kenji wrote... Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
744> The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations.
745> "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat 746> again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was 747> to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it. 748> For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and 749> nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound 750> once more and go on listening to it for ever." 751> 752> "No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more. 753> Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound. 754> "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said 755> presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry 756> bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the 757> distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the 758> call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet! 759> Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be 760> for us." 761> If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for 762> you. 763> Do they find the baby otter ?
764May he be found and possessed 765such that he is eternally 766lost in the call
767Especially for you...
768http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htm
769Love,
770Joyce 771Message 23197 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 772 Msg # 773From: ken knight
776--- Lady Joyce
785Good Evening Joyce, 786Reality's statement in the Rumi poem at this URL is 787based on a hadith...these are mystical sayings or 788stories that are not included in the Koran and whose 789validity is challenged by some.....'I was a hidden 790treasure and wanted to be known so created creation in 791order to be known.' The English of that is pathetic 792but gives you the sense of the hadith. The Arabic 793used for the word 'known' has to do with taste, as in 794tasting the sweetness, madhur and svadh in the 795Sanskrit. Both of which are to be noted in RV I.164 in 796the tale of the two birds.
797Back to Rat and Mole. Yes indeed, the baby otter had 798to be lost in order to be found. having been guided by 799the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the 800Presence of ..... 801As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene: 802'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc 803showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the 804first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took 805the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When 806they were able to look once more, the Vision had 807vanished and the air was full of the the carol of 808birds that hailed the dawn...... ' 809Then the veil is drawn back over the animals' inner 810vision,
811Oh well, teachings abound and we are fortunate on this 812site to share them,
813Thanks again for the link,
814Ken Knight 815Message 23198 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 816 Msg # 817From: "Lady Joyce"
820Kenji wrote...
821Yes indeed, the baby otter had to be lost in order to be found. having been 822guided by 823> the sweet sound the animals found themsleves in the 824> Presence of .....
825Ah, but was he lost then found, or found then lost? 826In the call...
827> As Dawn, Usha in the Rgvedic hymns, lit up the scene: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
828> 'Sudden and magnificent, the Sun's broad golden disc 829> showed itself over the horizon facing them; and the 830> first rays, shooting across level water-meadows, took 831> the animals full in the eyes and dazzled them. When 832> they were able to look once more, the Vision had 833> vanished and the air was full of the the carol of 834> birds that hailed the dawn...... '
835I want to share with you an image which Adiji had posted 836on her group page, of Usha, along with a short poem and 837Hymn CXIII (Dawn) taken from the link which Sunderji had posted... 838Thanks to the One and the Many :-)
839http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/Usha/Dawn.htm
840Love,
841Joyce 842Message 23199 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 843 Msg # 844From: ken knight
847Namaste all, 848Apologies for the length of this posting but we are 849getting into matters that need some explanation for 850those who have not heard of vedangas and Yaska. 851All the previous postings have been setting the scene 852for this one which is the major step before we enter 853the mAyA sections. 854I am just about to take my wife to point A before 855going to point B before going to point A again and 856taking us both to point C which is Heathrow airport to 857say farewell to my emigrating son later this 858afternoon. It is unlikely that I will be able to get 859on to the computer until tomorrow as most of the day 860will be spent on what is fondly known as England's 861'biggest car-park': the M25. Those of you who live in 862England will understand what that all means.
863Hope the following makes some sense:
864YAska, Vedangas and Understanding the Hymns
865The unavoidable understanding from this introduction 866to the Rgveda is that the hymns of the saMhitA cannot 867be presented without error in a written form or when 868analysed in intellectual debate. In the various 869postings we have encountered the tradition of 870eternality of the Vedas, against which we have to Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
871place ides of word sound, shabda, meaning, artha, 872intention, tatparya and context. Throughout the 873history of South Asian philosophical debate these are 874much discussed and it would help us to understand 875Shankara if we had all studied the six darSanas. 876Hopefully, next month's topic will help us in that 877regard. For the moment we must take a further step 878back towards the first attempts to understand the 879Vedas as they had been collected together as we know 880them today. 881We have also, up to this point, considered the 882possibility that the requirement for intuitive 883understanding in the moment of hearing does not 884prevent subsequent analysis being of significant value 885as long as all 'kindling' is offered in sacrifice; 886that there is purity of intention. Both intuitive 887insight and rational thought are necessary events in 888the exegesis of the mantras so the Vedangas, primarily 889aids for the protection of the purity and accuracy of 890meaning of the Vedas, evolved naturally as the 891teaching and language practices were developed from 892the archaic forms of Sanskrit to what we may call 893classical Sanskrit. 894The need for purity of language or speech, of action 895and of the participants in ritual is at the centre of 896such spiritual work. This awareness of the need for 897purity implies that there is an underlying impulse for 898the actions of a study, or ritual, an impulse that is 899perfect, whole and 'pure'. At the substratum level of 900this purity no fault can appear, it is only at the 901level of name and form, necessary for explanation or 902demonstration, that imperfections occur through error. 903That substratum is central to a non-dualist teaching 904and it is illustrated by the final statement of the 905ISha Upanishad. This has been well covered as our 906April topic: 907This Upanishad emerged out of the age of the Vedic 908seers through the tradition of Yajnavalkya. It is at 909the core of the fundamental questioning as to 'How the 910One becomes Many while remaining One.' Centred around 911the statement of the seventh verse, 'seeing the same 912in all', the Upanishad, through its concluding shanti 913mantra, makes the definitive statement on the 914resplendent, Sukram, wholeness and indivisibility of 915the all-pervading substratum, paryagAt: 916'When to that man of realisation, yasmin vijAnataH, 917all beings become the very Self, atma eva abhUt, then 918what delusion and what sorrow can there be for the 919seer of oneness?' 920Then follows:
921'That is perfect, purna, this is perfect. The perfect 922arises from perfect. Realising the imperfect in the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
923perfect, the perfect remains.' Isha Upanishad 7 924(this is but one translation but I have never yet been 925satisfied by any translation of this Sloka into 926English.)
927The Vedangas were first numbered as six in the 928SadviMSa BrAhmaNa of the SAma Veda where they are said 929to be the limbs of the goddess SvAhA, consort of Agni. 930In the Mundaka Upanishad, the rishi Angiras gives the 931traditional teaching on the two kinds of knowledge to 932be acquired, dve vidye veditavye: 933'..There are two kinds of knowledge to be acquired; 934the higher and the lower, this is what, as tradition 935runs, the knowers of the import of the Vedas say. 936Of these, the lower comprises the Rgveda, Yajurveda, 937Samaveda, Atharvaveda, the science of pronunciation, 938ShikshA, the code of rituals, kalpaH, grammar, 939vyAkaranam, etymology, niruktam, metre, chandah and 940astrology, jyotisham. Then there is the higher 941knowledge by which is realised that immutable, 942aksharam. 943By the higher knowledge the wise realise everywhere 944that which cannot be perceived or grasped; which is 945without source, features, eyes, ears; which has 946neither hands nor feet; which is eternal, multiformed, 947all-pervasive, extremely subtle, and undiminishing; 948and which is the source of all. 949As a spider spreads out and withdraws (its thread), as 950on earth grow the herbs (and trees), and as from the 951living man issues out hair on the head and body, so 952out of the Immutable does the universe emerge here (in 953this phenomenol creation.).' Mundaka Up. I.1.4-7.
954Accustomed as he was to the classical Sanskrit of his 955time, roughly 4th century BC , YAska needed to 956penetrate the archaic Sanskrit of the Vedas. Coming in 957a long line of those seeking the purity of the 958original Rishi's vision, YAska was concerned with 959revealing the original meaning of the Vedic mantras as 960used in the rituals of his time. He chose etymology 961and grammar as being the primary skills in this 962process while, of course, recognising the importance 963of Chhandas, metre. He also stated that it was through 964the correct pronunciation of these mantras, by 965suitably qualified persons, that their meaning came to 966a flowering and fruition in their study and practice. 967Attitudes to his work vary from dismissing it 968altogether, to regarding it as no more than folk 969etymology to seeing it as a most valuable, ancient 970forerunner in the history of linguistics. His Nirukta 971is devoted to the explanation of difficult Vedic 972words. The only work of the kind now known to us is Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
973that of Yaska, who was a predecessor of Panini; but 974such works were no doubt numerous, and the names of 975seventeen writers of Niruktas are mentioned as having 976preceded Yaska. The Nirukta consists of three parts 977:-(1.) Naighantuka, a collection of synonymous words; 978(2.) Naigama, a collection of words peculiar to the 979Vedas; (3.) Daivata, words relating to deities and 980sacrifices. These are mere lists of words, and are of 981themselves of little value. They may have been 982compiled by Yaska himself, or he may have found them 983ready to his hand. The real Nirukta, the valuable 984portion of the work, is Yaska's commentary, which 985follows. In this he explains the meaning of words, 986enters into etymological investigations, and quotes 987passages of the Vedas in illustration. These are 988valuable from their acknowledged antiquity, and as 989being the oldest known examples of a Vedic gloss. They 990also throw a light upon the scientific and religious 991condition of their times, but the extreme brevity of 992their style makes them obscure and difficult to 993understand. But we are here to understand. 994Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning when 995sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a 996recitation without understanding their meaning, in his 997opinion, withers the 'flowers so that they fail to 998fruit.' Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the 999top of the tree cannot be directly experienced ( I 1000have put that bit in as a reference to RV. I.164 and 1001the image of the two birds but cannot digress too far 1002into that one now.). YAska referred to that one who 1003chanted the mantra without understanding as a 'wooden 1004post', sthanu, and we may note that a post is the dead 1005product of a tree, unable to flower and fruit.
1006'Who heard speech without fruit and flower in the 1007abodes of gods and men, for that man speech has no 1008fruit or flower, or has very little fruit and flower. 1009The meaning of speech is called its fruit and flower. 1010Or the sacrificial stanzas addressed to deities, or 1011the deity and the soul are its fruit and flower.' 1012Nirukta I.20 1013In this passage, YAska's fundamental understanding of 1014the effectiveness of speech at three levels can be 1015discerned: the mantras may be spoken with no 1016understanding of the powers beyond the gross level, 1017spoken with insightful understanding at the subtle 1018level or 'spoken' in the fullness of the Atman. Hence 1019he states: yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA. 1020Durgacharya, YAska's commentator, develops this 1021statement: 1022'Knowledge of sacrifice is the flower, of which the 1023knowledge of divine beings may be considered as the 1024fruit. The knowledge of divine beings is in turn the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1025flower whose fruit is universal knowledge of the Self. 1026This is what is established by the whole Veda If the 1027dharma is leading to material prosperity is performed, 1028the knowledge of the gods is the reward. If on the 1029other hand the dharma leading to spiritual beatitude 1030is practised, then both the yajnika and daivika become 1031the flower; the daivika, which includes in itself the 1032yajnika becomes the flower and the adhyatmika the 1033fruit.' This has been quoted from 'The Heart of the 1034Rigveda' Mahuli R Gopalacharya, Somaiya pub. 1971 1035pp.10-11 1036(These three levels, gross, subtle and causal as it 1037were, of Adhibhautica, regarding the external world, 1038Adhidaivica, regarding divine beings, and Adhyatmica, 1039regarding spiritual truths, is a central teaching in 1040Vedanta. 1041Bhagavad Gita, Chapter Seven concludes with, 'They who 1042know Me as the Adhibhuta and the Adhidaiva, as well as 1043the chief of sacrifice, they truly know Me with 1044steadfast thought even at the hour of death.') 1045We can now try to relate this statement with the 1046'power and the glory' of the posting on the context of 1047the hymns' oral tradition. The acquisition of any 1048speck of knowledge requires a certain sacrifice before 1049the acquired skill gives meaning and authority, as any 1050school pupil could observe. When the child learns to 1051multiply numbers, status and awards follow, but the 1052true delight to be directly experienced is not in the 1053limited power and authority of that newly acquired 1054status, but in the magnificent, inspired flow in the 1055work itself from the first perception of the question 1056to be answered, through its working and finally to a 1057successful conclusion. The child will naturally 1058exclaim, 'I like this.' 1059The full meaning is not to be found in merely chanting 1060the mathematical tables as instructed by the teacher. 1061Nor is the full meaning to be found in the newly 1062acquired status as 'one who can do multiplication.' 1063It is found in the pure application of this acquired 1064knowledge in the correct situation, in the right place 1065at the right time. As a young child I would sit up in 1066my bedroom, writing the longest sum in the world 1067around the walls. My parents thought this neither the 1068right time nor right place for such activity. 1069This process of learning and final delight is an 1070example, it must be stated in my opinion only, of 1071YAska's yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA. 1072The fullness of meaning comes through the mantra 1073realising its own knowledge, as it were, in the fields 1074of being and becoming. As individuals our role is to 1075bring, as kindling, our limited knowledge to the place 1076of sacrifice in that field, at the place of ritual, 1077where we may recall the teaching of the RgVeda: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1078agninAgniH samidhyate 1079'By Agni, Agni is inflamed.' RV I.12.6
1080This is a simple mantra to chant, easy to interpret, 1081power-full when realised. In truth, our spiritual 1082practice is no more than allowing that which is 1083already present to manifest in ever expanding 1084fullness. 1085It may be a distraction to mention this here but an 1086essential point relevant to YAska's thinking needs to 1087be made. For the meaning of mantra to be realisable 1088today we have to consider the eternality of meaning 1089hidden within sound. 1090In our day-to-day language sounds stay the same but 1091meanings appear to change at random. For example, 1092here in UK when I was a child, the sound 'gay' meant 1093'merry' and was an adjective. For my children's 1094generation 'gay' is a noun or adjective and means 1095'homosexual'. For my grandchildren, 'gay' is once more 1096an adjective and means 'pathetic'. Such confusion of 1097meanings faced YAska and those who wished to 1098demonstrate and explain the meaning of mantra used in 1099ritual. If sounds could change their meaning then the 1100permanence of the mantra after an individual's death, 1101indeed, the very eternality of the Vedas themselves, 1102would be challenged. The SatapaTa-brahmaNa had stated 1103that the knowledge attained through the ritual 1104pronunciation of the Vedas remained with the 'knower' 1105after death; te vidyAkarmano samavArabhete SB 110614.7.2.3. If permanence of meaning of sounds is in 1107speech only there can be no subtle sounds manifesting 1108a causal impulse or inspiration, so YAska begins his 1109Nirukta by dismissing such a view because it would 1110inevitably be a denial of the Vedas as an eternal 1111repository of knowledge. Nirukta I.1. 1112We may like to reflect on this in relation to the 1113sound mAyA. Are the Vedas eternal and their mantras 1114able to realise themselves in all times? Should we 1115try to understand mAyA through the Vedic commentators 1116in history or through its translation into English as 1117'illusion'? Or should we wait to hear the word afresh 1118in the moment 'now'? 1119(I am aware of the claim, by such as Kautsa, that 1120Rgvedic mantras are meaningless and/or contradictory 1121therefore rendering Nirukta as without value in Vedic 1122exegesis. I leave it to others to argue this point if 1123they wish. 1124When countering Kautsa, YAska argues that 1125contradictions only arise when the whole context is 1126not known, that the 'appeal to a plant is to the 1127divinity of the plant', and that the inability to 1128discover the meaning of such allegedly meaningless 1129words as 'amyak' or 'jArayAi', is that error of the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1130blind man walking into a post and blaming the post for 1131his injury. Nirukta I.15-16 . 1132It is in the light of such viewpoints that YAska 1133pronounced yAjnadaivate pushpaphale devatAdhyAtme vA. 1134Nirukta I.20 This final, fulfilling fruition of the 1135meaning of the mantra, expanding totally in the subtle 1136and gross levels as thought and speech, is 1137illustrated by the Vedas themselves so YAska writes: 1138'With these words, 'And to another she yielded her 1139body' ( RV.X.71.4) she reveals herself, knowledge; the 1140manifestation of meaning ( is described) by this 1141speech….this is the praise of one who understands the 1142meaning.' Nirukta I.19 1143(Please note, this is Sarup's translation so I have 1144not altered his version of RV.X.71.4 which we have 1145already had posted in a fuller translation in the last 1146couple of days.) 1147Message 23200 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1148 Msg # 1149From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
1152--- In [email protected], ken knight
1169Namaste.
1170My PraNAms to Ken-ji for a marvellous introduction to Yaska's 1171Nirukta. May I appeal to all members of the group not to be 1172overwhelmed by the excellent matter, in quantity as well as quality, 1173that is being presented by Ken-ji, but to read every word of it 1174rightaway so that we can enjoy and absorb the treasures that are 1175bound to follow from his pen in the future posts. I think this is 1176THE opportunity for all of us to really learn something deep of the 1177most ancient text of mankind. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1178If it can be of any help, readers may want to read the following 1179short note on Nirukta, from the discourses of Mahaswamigal of Kanchi: 1180http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part9/chap1.htm
1181PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. 1182Profvk 1183Message 23201 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1184 Msg # 1185From: "Dennis Waite"
1188Hi Ken,
1189I'm not contributing very much to your topic I'm afraid - mainly sitting 1190back in awe of your erudition! I am sure that many members of the list will 1191be studying your posts in detail and that this will justify the vast amount 1192of effort that you must have put in. This belief helps me assuage any guilt 1193for not myself reading all of your posts to this depth. It would be very 1194demanding on time to give them all of the attention they deserve and I am 1195not that interested in going into this subject so deeply. Nevertheless, I 1196must congratulate you on the readability and interest of even the difficult 1197aspects.
1198I do enjoy your supporting material, such as the wonderful passage from Wind 1199in the Willows. I also must thank you for pointing us to the chant sites. 1200Whilst looking, I couldn't resist just trying Pandit Jasraj's interpretation 1201of the Mandukya Upanishad for curiosity. I have subsequently ordered the CD! 1202It sounds wonderful and can be heard in its entirety at the 1203www.musicindiaonline.com site - all 3 hours of it! Are there any specific 1204chants that you would recommend (actual URL pointing to ones that can be 1205heard on-line)? I freely confess that I am interested from the point of view 1206of musicality rather than specific relevance to the topic, if this is 1207permissible! I am practically completely ignorant as regards Indian music 1208and it clearly has so much to offer. A brief introduction from any member 1209would be most welcome.
1210I would just like to query your comment on the St. John gospel. You said:
1211'The same was in the beginning with God.' He has 1212already repeated himself three times, why do so again? 1213What new element is he putting forward? The clue is in 1214the word 'same'; see Sanskrit root Sam."
1215I have seen this sort of thing done before by commentators on the Gospels 1216and wondered how it can be justifiable. Surely the original of the bible 1217material is in Hebrew or Greek? How, then, can you take an English 1218translation of this (same) and attempt to suggest that it was based on a 1219Sanskrit word (or any other language other than the presumably Greek in 1220which it was written)? Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1221Best wishes,
1222Dennis 1223Message 23202 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1224 Msg # 1225From: "adi_shakthi16"
1228Ken-Knightji observes... .. (in the introductory message number 122923044)
1230"If any understanding of value emerges from my 1231contribution to this study it is through the grace of 1232Sri Anandamayi Ma and Dr. Gopinath Kaviraj who were 1233met on one blessed day in Varanasi some 40 years ago. 1234They both died many years back and although we never 1235met again, physically that is, somehow they have 1236subtly influenced my erratic efforts to understand the 1237wisdom of India."
1238and now again he reiterates
1239"I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri 1240Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any 1241understanding shines through these postings it is 1242through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are 1243invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two 1244wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this 1245topic. "
1246Ken Knightji ! That is the way to go ! It appears to me that the 1247great FEMALE TANTRIK guru Sri ANANDAMAYI MA gave you 'shaktipat' 1248or 'nayana diksha' when she met you in Varanasi some 40 years ago 1249when you were a mere lad of 23 years. We can seen the 'grace of guru' 1250and the 'grace of Saraswati devi' ( the goddess of speech and 1251learning ) flowing through your mighty Pen.
1252On this beautiful Thursday dedicated to the Guru , it is my pleasure 1253to bring to you this all time favorite verse of mine
1254As it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.23):
1255yasya deve para bhaktir 1256yatha deve tatha gurau 1257tasyaite kathita hy arthah 1258prakasante mahatmanah
1259"Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1260the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are 1261automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23)
1262Yes ! it is through the devotion to the Guru and to the God/ess 1263that one can really understand such complex truths of Vedic texts.
1264Kenji writes again...
1265`I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one 1266all ignorant for sake of knowledge, 1267What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath 1268stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'
1269It is this question that leads into the famous 'two 1270birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.
1271Yes! the imagery of two birds sitting on a tree from the upanishads ! 1272why only beloved of Vedantins ? THE imagery of two birds sitting on a 1273tree is beloved of dwaithas too? You know, i IN my gopi heart , 1274KRISHNA OR VISHNU HAS TAKEN A PERMANENT RESIDENCE. and every 1275wednesday, i listen to Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama in the melodious voice 1276of Smt. M.S. Subbalaxmi.
1277"dvA *suparNA* sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vRksham parishvajAte 1278tayoranyah pippalam svAdvanti, anaSnan anyo abhicAkaSIti 1279(mundakopanishad - 3.1) -
1280literally translated it means (dwaitha interpretation)
1281In the upanishad-s, we have reference to two beautiful birds sitting 1282on the same tree - signifying the jIvAtmA and the ParamAtmA dwelling 1283in the same body. One (jIvAtmA) eats the fruits of actions, and the 1284other (ParamAtMA) just gazes on (sAkshI).
1285A pair of white-winged birds extremely friendly to each other sit on 1286one and the same tree; one eats the fruits, the other eats not and 1287gazes on".
1288SrI rAdhAkRshNa Sastri refers to one as the great enjoyer (pErinbam), 1289and the other as the Great Knower (pEraRivu).
1290thus,
1291Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable 1292companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the 1293birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet. 1294The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on, 1295illuminating all around.
1296once again,
1297dvA suparNA sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vrikSham parishasvajAte | Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1298tayoranyah pippalam svAdvatti anashnan anyah abhicAkashIti ||
1299Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable 1300companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the 1301birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet. 1302The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on, 1303illuminating all around.
1304and who is the "SUPARNA" ?
1305One of the names of sri Vishnu bhagwan is "Suparana" ( nama -194 in 1306Sri vishnu sahasaranama)
1307a) (literally) it means one possessed of charming feathers
1308b) One who can lead men to the other shore across the ocean of 1309samsAra.
1310Om suparNAya namah.
1311a) In SrImad-bhAgavatam we have - siddheSvarANAm kapilah suparNo'ham 1312patatriNAm - Among the siddha-s, I am Kapila, and among birds I am 1313GaruDa (11.16.15). In Bhagavad-gItA, we have mRgANAm ca mRgendro'ham 1314vainateyaSca pakshiNAM - Among beasts, I am the lion, their king, and 1315among birds, I am GaruDa, the son of VinatA (10.29). Thus, suparNa is 1316interpreted as referring to His being the Best of the best in all 1317that exist.
1318b) parNa means wings. Sobhana parNatvAt suparNah - suparNa means One 1319with auspicious and beautiful wings. He is suparNa because He carries 1320His devotees to the other shore of the ocean of samsAra.
1321home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/sloka21.html - 18k - Cached -
1322THis jiva ( me) always likes to maintain a tiny 'separateness' from 1323MAHA VISHNU so she can worship Him in all the nine modes of 1324devotion.
1325Now for the advaitic interpretation... any takers?
1326Thank you kenji for another wonderful post in these series...
1327one of the names of Sarswati is The womb or source of the Vedas 1328(Vedagarbha)
1329and right now , she has incarnated in this forum through You, kenji! Y
1330AUM SARASWATHYAII NAMAHA! 1331Message 23203 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1332 Msg # Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1333From: "adi_shakthi16"
1336Shri Dennis-ji asks ...
1337" Are there any specific > chants that you would recommend (actual 1338URL pointing to ones that can be heard on-line)? I freely confess 1339that I am interested from the point of view of musicality rather 1340than specific relevance to the topic, if this is permissible! I am 1341practically completely ignorant as regards Indian music and it 1342clearly has so much to offer. A brief introduction from any member 1343would be most welcome."
1344Indian Music is like Sushi ! You have to cultivate a 'taste' for it 1345and you have to be in a 'mood' fot it.
1346But there is always a first time ...
1347Once you start listening to Indian music, it grows on you .
1348Thus is one site i often use ( which you have already mentioned) ! 1349one must know how to navigate around this site in order to enjoy 1350different kinds of indian music, from the classical to cine music - 1351instrumental to vocal.
1352PLease try ...
1353Vedic Chants by Ravi Shankar ... 1354http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/l/02000H0010 - 22k - Cached
1355Listening to these chants really puts one in an ecstatic mood and 1356throughout the day you feel good and you don't need any other UPPERS!
1357Another site i frequent is
1358http://www.sangeetham.com
1359but that is real Classical stuff and is mostly in classical ragas 1360sung in indian languages ...
1361again, it is all about cultivating a taste for indian music! once you 1362start enjoying listening to it, you cannot do without it! it is 1363addictive !
1364Of course, one can always go to http://www.amazon.com 1365and buy cds on line!
1366Happy Listening!
1367enjoy! Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1368Message 23204 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1369 Msg # 1370From: ken knight
1373--- Dennis Waite
1377Good Morning Dennis, 1378Yes you are. The Vedas are not books. They are what is 1379in front of you and all around you and flowing through 1380you. You cannot help but be interested. 1381And mAyA ? Well we haven't got to that one yet. 1382Sorry about all the words though but I could not think 1383of any other way to do this usefully for people. 1384> Are there any specific 1385> chants that you would recommend (actual URL pointing 1386> to ones that can be 1387> heard on-line)?
1388I think each person will find that which vibrates most 1389harmoniously for themselves so may I ask you to search 1390through the sites listed. Bit of a task but these 1391things have a way of revealing themselves. 1392Did you ever learn any SES version of Sanskrit? If 1393so, have a look at the www.flaez.ch site and use the 1394transliteration there for a hymn that appeals to you.
1395This suggestion then raises the problem of purity. We 1396really need to sit at the feet of a master when we are 1397three years old when we can still listen..... 1398About five years ago I spent three days with some sama 1399veda chanters from Kerala who tried to teach a group 1400in the traditional way....all of us were hopeless; too 1401old. 1402However, I do feel that if we approach the hymns with 1403sincerity, with respectful acknowledgement of the 1404devaH to whom it is dedicated and the Rishi who spoke 1405it, through the awakening of dhI, then we may hear 1406something powerful emerging from our own mouths.
1407We may also be turned into frogs if we get it totally 1408wrong but there you go. 1409We might be better at being frogs than we are at being 1410humans. 1411We might even be frogs in a pond in the forest 1412hermitage where we can hear the Vedas chanted Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1413correctly all day...... apologies to those on this 1414site who know that I have adapted the story of the 1415hermit who fell in love with a deer whose mother had 1416been killed.. 1417> 1418> I would just like to query your comment on the St. 1419> John gospel...... How, then, can you 1420> take an English 1421> translation of this (same) and attempt to suggest 1422> that it was based on a 1423> Sanskrit word (or any other language other than the 1424> presumably Greek in 1425> which it was written)?
1426Pretty easy that one although the Greek is possibly 1427more interesting than the English. 1428Firstly 'same'. Skeat's etymological dictionary will 1429refer you to the Sanskrit 'sama' as well as many other 1430sources all related to a meaning of 'together' 'even' 1431'identical' 'of the like kind'. As you know, because 1432of the Roman influences, 'c' in English can be sounded 1433softly 's' or with the hard 'K' sound as in 1434communication. So if you look at words like 'symmetry' 1435'sympathy' you will find the 'same' being developed in 1436the prefix.
1437The Greek 'outos' is what is being translated as 1438'same'. This is not quite accurate in our modern 1439meaning but it may have had a different emphasis in 1440King Jams' time. The most usual meaning of 'outos' 1441is 'this' as the demonstrative pronoun. It also has 1442the meaning 'for this reason' which would link it with 1443one of core meanings of Logos which is translated as 1444'Word'. I once set a Greek scholar friend to the task 1445of studying 'outos' for me and she was enthralled with 1446the subtleties of meaning she found there. If you can 1447get hold of a Greek Lexicon of the New Testament may I 1448recommend that you have a look.
1449Finally, on this little sidetrack, the April 1450discussion on purna had much to say on Skt. 'Idam'. In 1451the way John presents the prologue to the Gospel I 1452think that he may well have had such a concept in 1453mind.
1454So, too many words again. But I blame you for for 1455setting me off down this road. However, I do agree 1456with you, as we have said before, that the imagery of 1457one religious tradition should not be imposed upon 1458another in some populist fashion; that does not mean 1459that we should not peer behind the veils though.
1460Thanks for joining in, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1461Ken Knight 1462Message 23207 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1463 Msg # 1464From: ken knight
1467--- adi_shakthi16
1474> and who is the "SUPARNA" ?
1475Namaste, 1476Thank you indeed for this great collection based 1477around suparNA. Again, this is why I have been asking 1478for help from those of you who have these traditions 1479in your hearts through practice and experience. I 1480have to rely on my fingers opening the right page of a 1481book.
1482Why only vedantins? 1483Because of my own personal history in which I have 1484only heard Vedantins add their gloss to these texts. 1485Ofen in a stridently intellectual fashion. My Indian 1486friends here are all very devotional in their 1487preferences and are not too interested in sruti. They 1488look at me in bewilderment if I ask them the meaning 1489of some texts; it is just not their path.
1490If we go back to the Rgveda and seek out the two birds 1491in a tree we will find that some important element in 1492the original image are missing from all the later 1493texts. There is no doubt that this is the original 1494text:
1495RVI.164 21,22 1496yátraa suparNaá amR'tasya bhaagám ánimeSaM 1497vidáthaabhisváranti | 1498inó víshvasya bhúvanasya gopaáH sá maa dhiíraH paákam 1499átraá vivesha ||
1500'Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion 1501of life eternal, and the sacred synods, 1502There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1503entered into me the simple.'
1504yásmin vRkSé madhvádaH suparNaá nivishánte súvate 1505caádhi víshve |
1506tásyéd aahuH píppalaM svaadv ágre tán nón nashad yáH 1507pitáraM ná véda ||
1508'The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, 1509where they all rest and procreate their offspring,- 1510Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth 1511it who knoweth not the Father.'
1512That is amazing. A book needs to written on those 1513verses.
1514I would also link in a verse, that I have previously 1515omitted in recent postings, from the Kena Upanishad. 1516IV.6 1517'Brahman is wll known as the one adorable to all 1518creatures: (hence) It is to be meditated on with the 1519help of the name 'tadvana'. All creatures surely pray 1520to anyone who meditates on It in this way.'
1521For those without any Sanskrit, 'tadvanaM' comes from 1522tasya, his, vanaM, which has many meanings to do 1523with abundance, fullness, the adorable. Hence swami 1524Gabhirananda comments: 'It is adorable to all 1525creatures, since it is their indwelling Self. 1526Therefore Brahman is tadvanaM nAma, well known as the 1527one to be adored by all beings. Since it is tadvana, 1528therefore tadvanam iti, through this name, tadvana, 1529which is indicative of Its quality; It is upAsitavyam, 1530to be meditated on.'
1531As meditation in/on nirguna brahman is for the few; 1532this meditation on a quality is being offered as the 1533path for the majority of us.
1534I had slipped the following into my posting on Yaska: 1535'Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning 1536when sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a 1537recitation without understanding their meaning, in his 1538opinion, withers the 'flowers so that they fail to 1539fruit.' Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the 1540top of the tree cannot be directly experienced.'
1541I was referring to these two verses in particular.
1542More later Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1543Ken Knight 1544Message 23208 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1545 Msg # 1546From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
1549--- In [email protected], ken knight
1570Namaste, Ken-ji
1571This kenopanishad IV.6 that you have quoted above reminds me of some 1572more mantras from "udaka-shAnti" mantras (Yajur Veda) about which I 1573had written earlier. These 'udaka-shAnti' mantras are an anthology 1574from various parts of yajur veda, strung together in a particular 1575sequence, for the purpose of ritual purification and sacramenting 1576of water kept in a vessel for the occasion. As I told you earlier, 1577the entire nAsadIya sUkta of the Rg Veda occurs here, though in its 1578yajus form (i.e. as it appears in Yajur veda).
1579Now as soon as the nasadiya portion ends, the next set of mantras 1580that follow are similar to the kenopanishad mantras above. I am 1581quoting them below, in Sanskrit. I do not know the meaning fully. 1582But I am sure it also must be somewhere in Rg Veda. If you have not 1583already quoted it, can you locate it for me, so that I can look for 1584the translation at the right place? The mantras are as follows:
1585"kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt 1586yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh 1587manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat 1588yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1589brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt 1590yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh 1591manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH 1592brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan "
1593You can see it means something like this: "Brahman is the abundant 1594forest of 'trees' It supports this earth and all the universes.Man 1595can only imagine it in his mind". The words "vanaM" and "vRkshha" 1596must be interpreted in the style of 'tadvanaM nAma' as in the above 1597upanishadic quotation.
1598I havce only a vague understanding of the meaning. Can you help me 1599(1) to locate the corresponding portion in Rg Veda, if it is there; 1600and 1601(2) to unravel the meaning, more deeply. Thanks.
1602PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda 1603profvk 1604Message 23210 of 23503 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1605 Msg # 1606From: ken knight
1609--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
1627Namaste Professor, 1628This first is from RV. X.31.7 You can have a look as 1629www.flaez.ch and find similar Rks 1630kíM svid vánaM ká u sá vRkSá aasa yáto dyaávaapRthivií 1631niSTatakSúH 1632saMtasthaané ajáre itáuutii áhaani puurviír uSáso 1633jaranta 1634'What was the tree, what wood, in sooth, produced Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1635it, from which they fashioned forth the Earth and 1636Heaven? 1637These Twain stand fast and wax not old for ever: these 1638have sung praise to many a day and morning'
1639Trans. Griffith. 1640For some reason I was reminded of this which comes 1641from one of my favourites 1642RV.VI.9.6 1643ví me kárNaa patayato ví cákSur viiaàdáM jyótir 1644hR'daya aáhitaM yát |
1645ví me mánash carati duuráaadhiiH kíM svid vakSyaámi 1646kím u nuú maniSye ||
1647'Mine ears unclose to hear, mine eye to see him; the 1648light that harbours in my spirit broadens. 1649Far roams my mind whose thoughts are in the distance. 1650What shall I speak, what shall I now imagine?'
1651The rest have yet to yield to an RV search but I will 1652have another attempt in a while. I have to do some 1653telephoning before people go off to bed. 1654Thank you for this. Very enjoyable task. I always 1655used to translate vanaM as forest standing for the 1656mind. Besides word-searching the Rgveda I will have a 1657look at Yaska to see what he says about any of these 1658words.
1659I will return to this later or first thing tomorrow,
1660Ken Knight
1661> manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat 1662> yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan 1663> brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt 1664> yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh 1665> manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH 1666> brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan " 1667> 1668> You can see it means something like this: "Brahman 1669> is the abundant 1670> forest of 'trees' It supports this earth and all the 1671> universes.Man 1672> can only imagine it in his mind". The words "vanaM" 1673> and "vRkshha" 1674> must be interpreted in the style of 'tadvanaM nAma' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1675> as in the above 1676> upanishadic quotation. 1677> 1678> I havce only a vague understanding of the meaning. 1679> Can you help me 1680> (1) to locate the corresponding portion in Rg Veda, 1681> if it is there; 1682> and 1683> (2) to unravel the meaning, more deeply. Thanks. 1684> 1685> PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda 1686> profvk 1687Message 23211 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1688 Msg # 1689From: "Dennis Waite"
1692Hi Ken-ji and Adi-ji,
1693Thanks for that. Just a clarification of the point I was making about the 1694translation - I'm afraid I did not express myself very clearly. I am 1695certainly happy that the English word 'same' is derived from the Sanskrit 1696'sama' - I would never have challenged you over that. My point was that the 1697word 'same' never occurred in the original. The original word was, as you 1698say, the Greek 'outos'. My point was that it does not seem reasonable to 1699claim that 'outos' came from the Sanskrit 'sama'. It seems that this was 1700what you were effectively saying. At the time that the original was written, 1701it had not yet been translated into English so the word 'same' was nowhere 1702present.
1703I've had a look at the 'flaez' site - I didn't see that there were any audio 1704chants there. Yes, I did all of the chants at SES and quite enjoyed them. I 1705learnt all of my Sanskrit from there - enough, anyway to write my 'Essential 1706Guide to Sanskrit' book!
1707Thanks for the reference to the Ravi Shankar chants, Adi-ji. Amazing - when 1708I said that I was totally ignorant, I should have said apart from the Ravi 1709Shankar chants I have on CD! These are the same ones, though they are 1710excellent. More like these, please! Many of the ones we learnt at SES are 1711here, actually, though we learnt different melodies.
1712Best wishes,
1713Dennis Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1714Message 23212 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1715 Msg # 1716From: ken knight
1719Search. Compare. Save. 1720--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
1725Namaste again,
1726Sorry, I meant to include this but it had hidden 1727itself:
1728RV X. 81. 4 1729kíM svid vánaM ká u sá vRkSá aasa yáto dyaávaapRthivií 1730niSTatakSúH |
1731mániiSiNo mánasaa pRchátéd u tád yád adhyátiSThad 1732bhúvanaani dhaaráyan ||
1733'What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it, 1734from which they fashioned out the earth and heaven? 1735Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon 1736he stood when he established all things.'
1737More later,
1738ken Knight 1739Message 23214 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1740 Msg # 1741From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
1744--- In [email protected], "Dennis Waite"
1745More like these, please! Many of the ones we learnt at SES are 1746> here, actually, though we learnt different melodies.
1747Namaste,
1748A cassette of Veda chanting is available from the Ramanashram 1749office. The selections were done by Maharshi himself, and the Veda- 1750Parayana has been carried on at the Ashram for almost 80 yrs, 45 min. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1751in the morning and in the evening. He said that these chants helped 1752" 'still the mind' even if one did not know the meaning."
1753The cassette has these chants:
1754Taittiriya upanishad 1755Shree suktam 1756Mahanarayana upanishad (selections) 1757Shri Rudram (namakam and chamakam) 1758Purusha suktam 1759Narayana suktam 1760Durga suktam 1761Taittiriya aranyaka (selections)
1762In addition, it has:
1763Ramana-chatvarinshat (40 verses in praise of Maharshi - composed by 1764Vasishtha Ganapati Muni) 1765Arunachalapancharatnam (Maharshi's own composition)- sanskrit 1766Upadeshasaram ( " " ")- sanskrit
1767The cassette comes with a booklet which has English 1768translations of the text.
1769Regards,
1770Sunder 1771Message 23216 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1772 Msg # 1773From: "adi_shakthi16"
1776Ken-knightji!
1777This is awesome! Thank you for quoting these two verses on 'suparna' 1778now it is becoming more and more clearer!
1779RVI.164 21,22 1780(yátraa suparNaá amR'tasya bhaagám ánimeSaM 1781vidáthaabhisváranti | 1782inó víshvasya bhúvanasya gopaáH sá maa dhiíraH paákam 1783átraá vivesha ||
1784'Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion 1785of life eternal, and the sacred synods, 1786There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath 1787entered into me the simple.')
1788yásmin vRkSé madhvádaH suparNaá nivishánte súvate Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1789caádhi víshve |
1790(tásyéd aahuH píppalaM svaadv ágre tán nón nashad yáH 1791pitáraM ná véda ||
1792'The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, 1793where they all rest and procreate their offspring,- 1794Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth 1795it who knoweth not the Father.')
1796Yes!
1797suparnaa vipraah kavayo vachobhirekam santam bahudhaa kalpayanti
1798The learned and wise describe the One existing God in many forms of 1799expressions.
1800( Rig 10.114.5 )
1801Hari AUM! 1802Message 23217 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 1803 Msg # 1804From: ken knight
1807Namaste Every One who comes this way, 1808Either Professor Krishnamurthy of those powers that 1809pull the strings are guiding us nicely towards our 1810main topic of mAyA in the Vedas. As I have said 1811several times, I am in need of those who have been 1812brought up in the tradition and have it all ¡®in the 1813heart¡¯. So thank you for the question as to the Vedic 1814source of:
1815"kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt 1816yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh 1817manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat 1818yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan 1819brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt 1820yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh 1821manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH 1822brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan
1823Last evening I posted some refs: 1824RV VI.9.6 which had come to mind with this question 1825although it is not immediately apparent why. 1826RV.X.31, and RV X.81 which has the first four lines. 1827Then I found myself in Ramanuja territory with all 8 1828lines. But I could see myself being led into an 1829advaita, dvaita, vishistadvaita dialogue and I do not Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1830want to go into that forest at the moment, valid as it 1831is in later philosophy. 1832The problem for me comes with the ¡®brahma-vanam 1833brahma¡¯ if we are to accept the thesis that BrahmaNA 1834in RV is to do with the ¡®Word of the praise song¡¯ 1835and a later development into the creator Brahma. As I 1836could not find any similar texts to the last four 1837lines, in the RV, I decided to stick with the first 1838four lines as we have enough there, directly related 1839to the June topic, to keep us going for weeks.
1840We must remember also that this is all being sparked 1841by the use of ¡®tadvanam¡¯ in the Kena Upanishad ( 1842IV.7) as a meditation for those in need of a quality 1843on which to focus the attention. 1844As soon as I had found that Professor Krishnamurthy¡¯s 1845question had led to X.81 I knew that he was leading me 1846into the deepest oceans while I am still learning to 1847swim. This hymn is dedicated to Vishvadevas and the 1848Rshi has the same name, it is in the triSTubh metre. 1849It is one of a set of ¡®creation hymns¡¯ and is 1850directly related to our June topic, drawing together 1851some of what we have discussed already and preparing 1852the way for some future posts.
1853May I remind us of these points already presented: 1854power as manifesting through a continual emanation 1855witnessed by those with ears to hear and eyes to see, 1856the question of the poets as to their place in this 1857emanation, the emanation as yajna, the centrality of 1858Word and speech in this emanation, and the two birds 1859in the tree.
1860May I please direct you to this site where you will 1861find some valuable information and references for 1862further individual study. 1863"http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/yajurVeda/creation.asp 1864At this site Dr Shastry begins by saying : 1865¡®Creation: The idea is mentioned in great detail in 1866several anuv¨¡k¨¡s. There is the correspondence 1867between the creation at the cosmic level and the mode 1868of manifestation of the cosmic powers in an 1869individual.¡¯
1870Now that is the crucial statement for us for the link 1871between the inner, outer and all-pervading as 1872discussed already. Before we get to RV.X.81.4 can we 1873look at X.81.2 in which the poet asks. 1874k¨ªM svid aasiid adhiSTha¨¢nam aar¨¢mbhaNaM katam¨¢t 1875svit katha¨¢siit | 1876y¨¢to bhu¨²miM jan¨¢yan vishv¨¢karmaa v¨ª dya¨¢m 1877a¨²rNon mahina¨¢ vishv¨¢cakSaaH || Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1878¡®What was the place whereon he took his station? What 1879was it that supported him? How was it? 1880Whence Visvakarman, seeing all, producing the earth, 1881with mighty power disclosed the heavens.¡¯ 1882Note the use of ¡®mahinA¡¯ which is that immense power 1883expanding by will, by a magical might. We are on the 1884way to understanding mAyA in the Rgveda but more on 1885that later. Then we get ¡®vishv¨¢cakSaaH¡¯. Who is 1886directing this study for that is the central feature 1887for my pre-written first posting on mAyA due next week 1888so it must stay in the future.
1889Now. RVX.81.3 is directly related to the famous 1890Purusha Suktam, RV.X.90 which Tennyson seemed to use 1891in his poem ¡®The Great Pantheism.¡¯ (It is on the Net 1892if you want to Google it). I would suggest that this 1893is why the later writers attached the concepts of 1894these lines to Brahma. 1895RV X.81.4 is the direct quote: 1896k¨ªM svid v¨¢naM k¨¢ u s¨¢ vRkS¨¢ aasa y¨¢to 1897dya¨¢vaapRthivi¨ª niSTatakS¨²H | 1898m¨¢niiSiNo m¨¢nasaa pRch¨¢t¨¦d u t¨¢d y¨¢d 1899adhy¨¢tiSThad bh¨²vanaani dhaar¨¢yan ||
1900¡®What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it, 1901from which they fashioned out the earth and heaven? 1902Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon 1903he stood when he established all things.¡¯ 1904Are we now back in the same tree as in RV I,164? This 1905is also by ViSvedevas but n ow it is dedicated to : 1906ViSvedevas, vAk, waters, soma, agni, sUrya, vayu, 1907time, sarasvatI,sAdhyas, sarasvAn or sUrya. An 1908abundance. 1909May I requote the relevant verses: 1910dva¨¢ suparNa¨¢ say¨²jaa s¨¢khaayaa samaan¨¢M vRkS¨¢m 1911p¨¢ri Sasvajaate | 1912t¨¢yor any¨¢H p¨ªppalaM svaadv ¨¢tty ¨¢nashnann any¨® 1913abh¨ª caakashiiti ||
1914¡®Two Birds with fair wings, knit with bonds of 1915friendship, in the same sheltering tree have found a 1916refuge. 1917One of the twain eats the sweet Fig-tree's fruitage; 1918the other eating not regardeth only.¡¯ 1919y¨¢traa suparNa¨¢ amR'tasya bhaag¨¢m ¨¢nimeSaM 1920vid¨¢thaabhisv¨¢ranti | 1921in¨® v¨ªshvasya bh¨²vanasya gopa¨¢H s¨¢ maa dhi¨ªraH 1922pa¨¢kam ¨¢tra¨¢ vivesha ||
1923¡®Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their 1924portion of life eternal, and the sacred synods, 1925There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath 1926entered into me the simple.¡¯ Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1927y¨¢smin vRkS¨¦ madhv¨¢daH suparNa¨¢ nivish¨¢nte 1928s¨²vate ca¨¢dhi v¨ªshve | 1929t¨¢sy¨¦d aahuH p¨ªppalaM svaadv ¨¢gre t¨¢n n¨®n nashad 1930y¨¢H pit¨¢raM n¨¢ v¨¦da ||
1931¡®The, tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, 1932where they all rest and procreate their offspring,- 1933Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth 1934it who knoweth not the Father.¡¯ 1935Back to X.81.4
1936¡®What wood produced it?¡¯ The use of wood as the 1937material of creation occurs in many traditions; 1938clearly, for someone looking around the tree is not 1939just a beautiful form but it is the source of the wood 1940for the fire, it extends into the heavens, it is 1941mighty and produces the forests etc etc. From this 1942wood ¡®the powers manifested earth and heaven¡¯ but 1943what that actually mean cannot be discerned by 1944intellect alone. Notice how the Rishis tells us that: 1945¡®Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon 1946he stood when he established all things.¡¯ 1947Remember that Indra stands in where once the YakSa had 1948stood: 1949Kena Up. III.12: 1950¡®In that very place, tasmin eva AkASe, the ¡®eva¡¯ 1951emphasising the point, the charming woman (umA) 1952appeared in answer to his question, ¡®What is this 1953YakSa?¡¯ 1954May we go back a few verses Kena Up. II.5. 1955¡®If one has realised here, then there is truth; if he 1956has not realised here, then there is great 1957destruction. The wise, once having realised ¡®Brahman) 1958in all beings, and having turned away from this world, 1959become immortal.¡¯ 1960In acknowledging the beauty of the tree and the forest 1961but not getting attached to the fruit on the lower 1962branches the Father is known and the fruit at the top 1963of the tree. The sweetness of immortality is realised. 1964I think I had better stop that line of thought there 1965as Millie the Border Collie is ready for her walk. 1966First though. Recalling mahinA above. Later we will 1967be looking at the story of the Rbhus who fashioned 1968their chariot out of ¡®wood¡¯ before elevation to the 1969heavens. Therefore this will be of use in relation to 1970ViSvakarman. 1971At the level of what we call ¡®nature¡¯ we have 1972Tvastri, the divine artisan who, according to the 1973atharva veda is ¡®in the beginning the counterpart of 1974the waters. He receives the epithet Savitri, the solar 1975deity. He is supAni ( the skilful-handed one), 1976omniform and faithful to the law (RtAvan). ¡®He¡¯ 1977combines both the female and the male generative Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1978power. Presiding over birth, he places the life seed 1979in all creatures, shapes all forms, adorns heaven and 1980Earth with the multivarious forms, forges the 1981thunderbolt of Indra, fashions the soma cup for the 1982gods and sharpens the axe for Brahmanaspati. 1983It is the energising nature of ¡®his¡¯ (savitA) that 1984is the vivifying power of Savitri to whom the GAyatrI 1985mantra is dedicated. ViSvakarman takes on these 1986duties, among others, and such differentiation causes 1987the confusion of deities so we have ViSvadevas 1988writing, RV X.164 46: 1989They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is 1990heavenly nobly-winged Garutman. 1991To what is One, sages give many a title they call it 1992Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.
1993Indeed the Vedas are endless but Ken is not so I must 1994end with: 1995Rc¨® akS¨¢re param¨¦ vy¨°man y¨¢smin deva¨¢ ¨¢dhi 1996v¨ªshve niSed¨²H | 1997y¨¢s t¨¢n n¨¢ v¨¦da k¨ªm Rca¨¢ kariSyati y¨¢ ¨ªt 1998t¨¢d vid¨²s t¨¢ im¨¦ s¨¢m aasate ||
1999¡®Upon what syllable of holy praise-song, as twere 2000their highest heaven, the Gods repose them,- 2001Who knows not this, what will he do with praise-song? 2002But they who know it well sit here assembled.¡¯
2003Thank you for your direction,
2004Ken Knight 2005Message 23218 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2006 Msg # 2007From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
2010--- In [email protected], ken knight
2023> 2024> Now that is the crucial statement for us for the link 2025> between the inner, outer and all-pervading as 2026> discussed already. Before we get to RV.X.81.4 can we 2027> look at X.81.2 in which the poet asks.
2028Namaste, Ken-ji
2029Your enthusiasm is infectious! Thank you for giving me the right 2030reference to Kapali Shastry's site above. It is going to give me a 2031lot of enjoyable homework, for finding the correlates of the 2032taittiriya samhita mantras that I know and the corresponding mantras 2033of the Rg Veda. Thanks once again.
2034Regarding RV X.81, I notice that it is where the famous 2035mantra "vishvatash-cakshhuruta vishvato mukho ..." is occurring. My 2036father used to quote this along with the 'brahma-vanam' quote. Since 2037you have already planned to discuss it in the future posts, I will 2038not dabble in it now.
2039Incidentally, in your latest post, the fonts have got fumbled up. Is 2040it a software failure at your end or at this 'advaitin' end?
2041praNAms to all students of Rg Veda 2042profvk 2043Message 23242 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2044 Msg # 2045From: ken knight
2048Namaste all, 2049This is the last of the introduction section and I 2050hope that we can go into the Vedic hymns with some 2051closer understanding of the contexts of ourselves and 2052the rishis. 2053For those who remember the lengthy discussion on 2054infinity back in the April topic it may be worth 2055looking back at Sunderji's posting that set it all 2056off. It was a posting quoting HH. Sri 2057Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Mahaswamiji in which he 2058was using mathematical division as an illustration.
2059This posting builds on the last one on YAska's work in 2060etymology and looks at the use of division in 2061language. We know what we want to say and have to dig 2062into our store of vocabulary to express it. An inner 2063sound of meaning is divided for the purpose of sharing 2064understanding. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2065Best wishes Ken Knight
2066Explanation through Division
2067(Please Note. Western scholars, seeking the meaning of 2068the Vedas, were initially dependant upon the 14th 2069century CE work of Sayana. His emphasis, in his 2070commentary (bhAshya), upon the ritualistic aspect of 2071the Vedic corpus does not always bring out the 2072philosophical, non-dualistic passages that accord with 2073Yaska's viewpoint. Dr. Ramachandra Rao has presented 2074three illustrations of the adhyajna, adhidaivata and 2075adhyAtma proponents. These in his presentation are, 2076Sayana, Saunaka and Yaska respectively. 'RgVeda 2077Darshana Volume Two Interpretations' S K Ramachandra 2078Rao Kalpatharu Research Academy Publications 1998 )
2079The division of a primordial sound into words and 2080syllables for the purpose of understanding may be 2081taken to echo the process of emanation from the One 2082into the many. YAska's comments on the flowering and 2083fruiting of meaning through speech, are immediately 2084followed by YAska recalling the status of the original 2085rshis in the history of the Vedic mantras. He restates 2086that through the power of penance, tapas, they 2087'directly experienced, sAkshAtkRta, and involuntarily 2088articulated, aspects of truth, dharmANaH. '
2089sAkshAtkRtadharmANa Rshayo babhUvoH | Nirukta I.20
2090When they had to pass on their insight to their 2091children, their disciples or other interested persons, 2092they had to expand their insights through explanations 2093and instructions, upadeSha, and thereby created the 2094spiritual tradition known as sampradAya. YAska uses 2095the word sampradu. 2096'They (seers) by oral instruction handed down the 2097hymns to later generations who were destitute of 2098direct intuitive insight. The later generations, 2099declining in (power of) oral communication, compiled 2100this work, the Veda, and the auxiliary Vedic 2101treatises, in order to comprehend their meaning.' 2102Nirukta I.20
2103In the earlier posting we noted the practice of 2104mentioning the seers' names in the hymns accords with 2105the tradition of acknowledging the authority of the 2106Apta, the trustworthy person, who through valid, 2107direct experiences can impart knowledge effectively. 2108This illustrates the importance of the Apta and the 2109need for us to find such a one to truly comprehend 2110these texts. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2111YAska then concludes this section of his Nirukta with 2112a stark statement: 2113bilmaM bhilmaM bhAsanabhiti vA | 2114'bilma=bhilma (division) or illustration.'
2115Placed at this point, in the explanation of the 2116outpouring of the intuitively perceived mantra into 2117later expositions and commentaries, is the suggestion 2118that a division is for the purpose of illumination or 2119illustration. A single sound, unintelligible to those 2120without the power of insight in direct experience, 2121requires division of that sound into syllables to 2122enable contemplation, rational study and finally, 2123revelation; the full experience of the meaning. This 2124process of division for illumination is bilma or 2125bhilma. It is a word right at the heart of our quest 2126to understand how the Vedic teachers sought the answer 2127to the questions, 'How, (or why), does the One become 2128many?', 'How do we unveil the unity in this apparent 2129diversity?'
2130To return to the example of the pupil learning 2131multiplication: The knowledge of multiplication is a 2132complete 'sound' or substratum in the awareness of the 2133teacher. In order to teach it is necessary to divide 2134up that knowledge into parts. Each part is limited, of 2135partial usefulness, but contains the impulse of, and 2136is linked to, the overall meaning. From the 2137concentrated study, tapas, by the pupil, of those 2138parts and the 'ritualistic' practices that accompany 2139the study, a moment of direct experience comes, the 2140eureka moment, and then the pupil shares in the 2141awareness of the teacher.
2142I began the second posting of this series with a 2143stanza from the Rgveda to illustrate how confusing the 2144English translation of the Rgveda could be. It is 2145therefore now relevant to note that in that hymn, 2146which is dedicated to the 'Son of the Waters', 2147apAMNapAt, there is given the only RgVedic use of that 2148word chosen by Yaska, bilma, when he completes his 2149explanation of the flowering and fruition of speech.
2150asmaí bahuunaám avamaáya sákhye yajñaír vidhema 2151námasaa havírbhiH | 2152sáM saánu maárjmi dídhiSaami bílmair dádhaamy ánnaiH 2153pári vanda RgbhíH ||
2154'Him, nearest Friend of many, will we worship with 2155sacrifice. and reverence and oblation. 2156I make his back to shine, with chips (bilmair, 2157division) provide him; I offer food and with my songs 2158exalt him.' RV.II.35.12 Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2159The 'chips', the pieces of kindling, bring fire to the 2160fire. Is there something here on the division of an 2161eternal sound into the forms of the mantra ? We would 2162need to look at the whole hymn to see this line in 2163context but I think it is worth some study. 2164The name of the devatA to whom this hymn is dedicated 2165is sometimes given as tanUnapat while Griffith uses 2166apAMNapAt from the opening stanza. Both of these are 2167names of Agni and bring out the relationship of both 2168fire and water in his elemental imagery. ApAMNapAt is 2169Agni born in the form of lightning from the aerial 2170ocean or the firmament. This I am interpreting here 2171as an image for the immediate, directly intuited 2172experience or insight which flashes, AshuhemA, into 2173the poet's consciousness and flows out of his or her 2174mouth as the sweet sounds of the mantra.
2175úpem asRkSi vaajayúr vacasyaáM cáno dadhiita naadyó 2176gíro me | 2177apaáM nápaad aashuhémaa kuvít sá supéshasas karati 2178jóSiSad dhí ||
2179'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may the 2180Floods' Child accept my songs with favour. 2181Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, for 2182he it is who shall enjoy them?' RV II.35.1
2183We are reminded here of : 2184agninAgniH samidhyate 2185'By Agni, Agni is inflamed.' RV I.12.6
2186The poet explains that it is Agni himself who will 2187delight in the praise-song that he himself has 2188inspired. The poet and singer is but the musical 2189instrument in the hands of the celestial musician. The 2190next verse tells us that the song, mantra, is 2191'well-fashioned, forth from the heart', hRdá A 2192sútaSTam mántraM. This is the famous expression, often 2193translated as 'well-chiselled in or by the heart.' 2194imáM sv àsmai hRdá aá sútaSTam mántraM vocema kuvíd 2195asya védat | 2196apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaa 2197jajaana ||
2198'To him let us address the song well-fashioned, forth 2199from the heart. Shall he not understand it' 2200The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of Godhead 2201hath produced all things existing.' RV II.35.2
2202The Vedic relationship between rivers and 2203inspirational speech has already been noted and we 2204could take another diversion and look at the concept Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2205of three rivers IlA, SarasvatI and BharatI (another 2206time maybe)
2207Hymn 35 goes on to relate how Agni, himself the father 2208of these three rivers, remains as the unborn child, 2209resting in their womb and then is nourished by them 2210when born, or borne maybe, on their waters.
2211asmaí tisró avyathyaáya naáriir devaáya deviír 2212didhiSanty ánnam | 2213kR'taa ivópa hí prasarsré apsú sá piiyuúSaM dhayati 2214puurvasuúnaam ||
2215'To him three Dames are offering food to feed him, 2216Goddesses to the God whom none may injure. 2217Within the waters hath he pressed, as hollows, and 2218drinks their milk who now are first made mothers.' 2219RV.II.35.5
2220This manifestation is a division of the unmanifest 2221godhead who is able to 'magically' expand, mahnA here 2222seems to be used in the Vedic sense of mAyA, the power 2223of the One to become many. The non-dual 2224interpretation of these and the following words would 2225seem to be that the unmanifest, through its own power 2226and glory, impels the impulse or power that is the 2227devatA at the subtle level, Agni in this instance, 2228which in turn impels the inspirational thought in the 2229mind/heart of the poet.
2230apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaa 2231jajaana |
2232'The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of 2233Godhead hath produced all things existing.' RV.II.35.2
2234This undefined insight, or sound, is then 2235'well-chiselled' in the heart of the poet and singer 2236for the purposes of manifesting or revealing the 2237hidden, or previously unmanifest, meaning. The 2238ultimate intention of this process is of manifesting 2239the One into many while seeking or realising the unity 2240that is maintained throughout the appearance of 2241diversity. As we seek a share in the insight of the 2242Vedic poet we can but marvel at the accuracy, the 2243precise 'chiselling', the compactness of their 2244mantras. 2245Here is a perfect example that would require a book, a 2246veritable inundation, to explain its subtleties: 2247'samAnám UrváM nadyàH pRNanti.' Those who heard this 2248mantra in its correct context would have been aware of 2249the mythological tales of the rishi Aurva but such a 2250benefit is not available to myself now to enhance what Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2251would be excessive speculation on the meaning of the 2252creation of the submarine fire from his thigh. 2253Griffiths translates the mantra well as, 'The sounding 2254rivers fill one common storehouse', but inevitably 2255this falls short. 2256These rivers, tumbling by in the physical world, sound 2257with bubbling, gurgling and roaring as they nourish 2258the lives of those dwelling by them, as do the rivers 2259of sound emerging in the hymn, but these do so in the 2260subtle world of the heart/mind, these rivers of 2261inspiration excite and inspire, nourish and fill the 2262thoughts of the singer and listener, uniting them in 2263the one, common place of utterance from which they 2264emerge and in which they find their destination. This 2265process is the fulfilment of the praise-song which 2266reflects the intention of some primary impulse. The 2267full meaning of pRNanti is indeed ineffable, only to 2268be understood in direct experience after elucidation 2269through division.
2270sám anyaá yánty úpa yanty anyaáH samaanám uurváM 2271nadyàH pRNanti | 2272tám uu shúciM shúcayo diidivaáMsam apaáM nápaatam pári 2273tasthur aápaH ||
2274'Some floods unite themselves and others join them: 2275the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse. 2276On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the 2277bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' 2278RV.II.35.3 2279======2280Message 23274 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2281 Msg # 2282From: ken knight
2285--- [email protected] wrote: 2286> 2287> To Sri Ken Knight prabhuji: 2288> 2289> I'd like to know *mAya* as explained in shankara's 2290> advaita siddhAnta. 2291> Kindly share your thoughts on this topic.
2292Namaste, 2293I would be quite happy to do so but this, I believe is 2294next month's topic. It was not the brief given to me 2295by Sunderji and I do not want to pre-suppose a future 2296presentation. 2297As you will see by my e-mail address 'anirvacaniya' I Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2298do understand and study Shankara. 2299So, please bear with me. I am trying to present, as 2300faithfully as possible, the original meaning of mAyA. 2301On the way to presenting that topic it is necessary to 2302such themes as eternality of meaning and 'meaning in 2303context'. These are not topics generally discussed.
2304Previously I have posted on the teaching of primary 2305and secondary meanings in advaita, especially in 2306relation to the Mahavakyas. These will be in the 2307archives. 2308For now though you will be aware of this teaching 2309kaivalya-advaita which is succinct: 2310'Caitanya is either associated with antaHkaraNa or 2311not. Caitanya associated with antahkarana is jIva. 2312Caitanya not associated with antaHkaraNa is pure 2313Brahman. ……………..Caitanya is either associated with 2314mAyA (nescience) or free from mAyA. The Caitanya 2315associated with mAyA is iShvara; and the Caitanya not 2316associated with mAyA is pure Caitanya. The pure 2317Caitanya is called Brahman.. When associated with the 2318limiting adjunct (antaHkaraNa or mAyA), jIva as well 2319as iShvara is different from Brahman. Without the 2320limiting adjuncts, jIva and iShvara are identical with 2321Brahman.'
2322Best wishes
2323Ken Knight 2324Message 23275 of 23508 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2325 Msg # 2326From: ken knight
2329Namaste all, 2330Some people have mentioned that they have had 2331difficulty with Sri Aurobindo's writings on the Vedic 2332hymns. Exegesis of the Rgvedic saMhitA does produce 2333highly individualistic interpretation and this is so, 2334quite naturally, with Sri Aurobindo. This is a 2335summary of his viewpoint on mAyA from his study of 2336these texts:
2337He divides Maya into two levels. 'The higher Maya is 2338the power of creative Self expression in the sphere of 2339relativity, the infinite power of self-manifestation 2340under the aspect of finitude is Maya. However, Maya 2341is also the power of liberating the spirit from finite 2342enclosure into a clear vision of its essential Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2343totality in, or continuity with, the Infinite. 2344The lower Maya is that which persuades each that 2345existence as a self-contained, exclusive and separate 2346entity is reality.'
2347I do not intend to follow this any further unless 2348there is special interest in Sri Aurobindo. 2349Let us see what we can make of the Rgveda ourselves.
2350Ken Knight 2351Message 23284 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2352 Msg # 2353From: ken knight
2356Namaste all, 2357In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew of 2358the authoritative source of the tradition that 2359originally there was but One Veda. I still have the 2360question open but would like to post the following 2361that appeared by 'chance' this morning. It is a 2362statement from one of the claimants to the seat of the 2363Shankaracharya at Jyotir Math, the late HH. Sri 2364Shantanand Saraswati. 2365'....Even in the East, people were getting weaker and 2366weaker. They were not able to resort to the same old 2367austere practices which the Rishis and Munis had done 2368before...... The Veda was originally one 2369word....'Om', pranava shabda. But later it was divided 2370into four sections...yajurveda, atharvaveda, rigveda 2371and samaveda. Later on even this was found to be too 2372difficult. Commentaries were written. Then it was 2373found that even commentaries were not understood. 2374Then it was further simplified till Vyasa came and he 2375wrote the substance of them in form of anecdotes and 2376stories, in history.' 2377This affirms an earlier point that the way initially 2378to understand the Rgveda is to hear these anecdotes 2379and histories. But if we could but hear the pranava 2380shabda......
2381Ken Knight
2382PS for those 'wrinklies' among us: 2383Does anybody remember a Moody Blues LP 'In Search of 2384the Lost Chord'? Whoever helped them write it really 2385understood: 2386This is the penultimate track: 2387The Word 2388. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2389'This garden universe vibrates complete, 2390Some may get a sound so sweet. 2391Vibrations, reach on up to become light, 2392And then through gamma, out of sight. 2393Between the eyes and ears there lie, 2394The sounds of color and the light of a sigh. 2395And to hear the Sun, what a thing to believe, 2396But it's all around if we could but perceive. 2397To know ultra-violet, infra-red, and x-rays, 2398Beauty to find in so may ways. 2399Two notes of the chord, that's our poor scope, 2400And to reach the chord is our life's hope. 2401And to name the chord is important to some, 2402So they give it a word, and the word is OM.' 2403Message 23285 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2404 Msg # 2405From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
2408--- In [email protected], ken knight
2415Namaste Kenji,
2416The questions of 'one veda' and 'infinite vedas' may not be 2417easily reconciled. What is known is that Vyasa re-organized the vedic 2418mantras in the presently known structure.
2419For more on this, Kanchi Mahaswamigal had this to say :
2420http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap38.htm
2421Regards,
2422Sunder 2423Message 23286 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2424 Msg # 2425From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
2428--- In [email protected], ken knight
2430> Namaste all, 2431> In one of my earlier posts I asked if anyone knew of 2432> the authoritative source of the tradition that 2433> originally there was but One Veda. I still have the 2434> question open
2435Namaste Ken-ji
2436The purana reference for this occurs in Srimad Bhagavatam Skanda 12, 2437Chapter 6, Shlokas 37 to 50. The following is the Prabhupada 2438translation of these shlokas:
243937. Suta Gosvami said: O brahmana, first the subtle vibration of 2440transcendental sound appeared from the sky of the heart of the most 2441elevated Lord Brahma, whose mind was perfectly fixed in spiritual 2442realization. One can perceive this subtle vibration when one stops 2443all 2444external hearing.
244538. By worship of this subtle form of the Vedas, O brahmana, mystic 2446sages cleanse their hearts of all contamination caused by impurity of 2447substance, activity and doer, and thus they attain freedom from 2448repeated 2449birth and death.
245039. From that transcendental subtle vibration arose the omkara 2451composed 2452of three sounds. The omkara has unseen potencies and manifests 2453automatically within a purified heart. It is the representation of 2454the 2455Absolute Truth in all three of His phases-the Supreme Personality, 2456the 2457Supreme Soul and the supreme impersonal truth.
245840-41. This omkara, ultimately nonmaterial and imperceptible, is 2459heard 2460by the Supersoul without His possessing material ears or any other 2461material senses. The entire expanse of Vedic sound is elaborated from 2462omkara, which appears from the soul, within the sky of the heart. It 2463is 2464the direct designation of the self-originating Absolute Truth, the 2465Supersoul, and is the secret essence and eternal seed of all Vedic 2466hymns.
246742. Omkara exhibited the three original sounds of the alphabet-A, U 2468and 2469M. These three, O most eminent descendant of Bhrgu, sustain all the 2470different threefold aspects of material existence, including the 2471three 2472modes of nature, the names of the Rg, Yajur and Sama Vedas, the goals 2473known as the Bhur, Bhuvar and Svar planetary systems, and the three 2474functional platforms called waking consciousness, sleep and deep 2475sleep. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
247643. From that omkara Lord Brahma created all the sounds of the 2477alphabet-the vowels, consonants, semivowels, sibilants and 2478others-distinguished by such features as long and short measure.
247944. All-powerful Brahma made use of this collection of sounds to 2480produce 2481from his four faces the four Vedas, which appeared together with the 2482sacred omkara and the seven vyahrti invocations. His intention was to 2483propagate the process of Vedic sacrifice according to the different 2484functions performed by the priests of each of the four Vedas.
248545. Brahma taught these Vedas to his sons, who were great sages among 2486the brahmanas and experts in the art of Vedic recitation. They in 2487turn 2488took the role of acaryas and imparted the Vedas to their own sons.
248946. In this way, throughout the cycles of four ages, generation after 2490generation of disciples-all firmly fixed in their spiritual vows-have 2491received these Vedas by disciplic succession. At the end of each 2492Dvapara-yuga the Vedas are edited into separate divisions by eminent 2493sages.
249447. Observing that people in general were diminished in their life 2495span, 2496strength and intelligence by the influence of time, great sages took 2497inspiration from the Personality of Godhead sitting within their 2498hearts 2499and systematically divided the Vedas.
250048-49. O brahmana, in the present age of Vaivasvata Manu, the 2501leaders of 2502the universe, led by Brahma and Siva, requested the Supreme 2503Personality 2504of Godhead, the protector of all the worlds, to save the principles 2505of 2506religion. O most fortunate Saunaka, the almighty Lord, exhibiting a 2507divine spark of a portion of His plenary portion, then appeared in 2508the 2509womb of Satyavati as the son of Parasara. In this form, named Krsna 2510Dvaipayana Vyasa, he divided the one Veda into four.
251150. Srila Vyasadeva separated the mantras of the Rg, Atharva, Yajur 2512and 2513Sama Vedas into four divisions, just as one sorts out a mixed 2514collection 2515of jewels into piles. Thus he composed four distinct Vedic 2516literatures. 2517------2518One has to read the above carefully to note that the one omkara gave 2519rise to all veda mantras in the three forms of riks yajus and sama 2520but only for the purpose of kaliyuga they were divided by Vyasa into 2521four distinct vedic literatures. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2522Ken-ji, this is the only reference I know where it is said that 2523there was only one veda but they got divided into four at the 2524beginning of kaliyuga.
2525PraNAms to all students of Vedas 2526Profvk 2527Message 23287 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2528 Msg # 2529From: ken knight
2532--- Sunder Hattangadi
2544Thank you for this link. I have the book here but had 2545missed this particular page. 2546Some people have said that I have gone 'deeply' into 2547this topic but I have barely touched the surface. To 2548use the tale in the second posting, I have not held 2549the smallest speck of dust from the three mountains 2550that ParameShvara produced for the sage BharadvAja. 2551Talks such as Chapter 38 indicate just how much there 2552is to be known in the context of one born into that 2553heritage. 2554I am grateful just to have a taste and I hope that 2555others will also be inspired to inquire into those 2556teachings that lie behind the Upanishads. A single 2557word, fully understood, will dissolve ignorance.
2558Many Thanks
2559ken Knight 2560Message 23289 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2561 Msg # 2562From: ken knight
2565--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
2571Namaste Professor, 2572Thank you many times over for this reference. This has 2573been a long-term question for me. I must search my 2574shelves for other translations. Certainly, these 2575verses encapsulate so much of what I have tried to 2576present in this study. 2577Usually I avoid Prabhupada translations but I like 2578this : 2579> 37. Suta Gosvami said: O brahmana, first the subtle 2580> vibration of 2581> transcendental sound appeared from the sky of the 2582> heart of the most 2583> elevated Lord Brahma, whose mind was perfectly fixed 2584> in spiritual 2585> realization. One can perceive this subtle vibration 2586> when one stops 2587> all 2588> external hearing.
2589Example. England has been unusually hot for the last 2590few days so my wife and I live, eat and sleep in the 2591garden. Each day as I breakfast I watch two birds, 2592pigeons in this case, in a tree in the field opposite. 2593It is the tallest tree. One sits still and the other 2594clambers to the highest branch. From there it takes 2595off, flapping its wings strenuously, frantically 2596trying to reach maximum height as soon as possible, 2597then it lets go of the effort and glides delightedly, 2598twitching a wing from time to time to circle back to 2599the tree to repeat the process several times. 2600I do not speak 'pigeon' so whether it is doing this 2601for fun or to attract the other pigeon I do not know. 2602In my own mind there arises the intention to locate 2603this event in the Rgvedic story of the two birds, or, 2604ignoring the scientific 'why' and 'how' questions, to 2605locate it in 'keneshitam', 'by whose impulse is it'. 2606This question has the power to release the mind from 2607such efforts mirrored by the pigeon's efforts to reach 2608the highest point before it lets go and begins to 2609glide. As the efforts fall away the presence of 2610connection, the substratum of the observer, observed 2611and observing emerges. Very simple.
2612There is the outer space, antaH, the inner space, 2613bahiH, and the all pervading sarva-gata or vyApta. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2614To understand the Vedas in front of, within and 2615pervading us, and to understand the written 2616collections, all expressing the One Veda, the Omkara, 2617we are assisted by devotion in its true meaning:
2618> 2619> 38. By worship of this subtle form of the Vedas, O 2620> brahmana, mystic 2621> sages cleanse their hearts of all contamination 2622> caused by impurity of 2623> substance, activity and doer, and thus they attain 2624> freedom from 2625> repeated 2626> birth and death.
2627This is all very pertinent personally because my study 2628this morning was of Brahma SUtras I.1.31 2629('tat tad upAsanA-yogyatayA cha purushANAm') and 2630Shankara's commentary. Although a personal study I 2631came across the following which I am quoting fully as 2632it is directly relevant to efforts to understand the 2633Vedic hymns. 2634I am quoting herethe words of Shri Ramachandra Rao in 2635his book RgVeda Darshana Vol 2. p.222-3:
2636'This threefold distinction follows the eligibilty and 2637capability of the different devotees. Some may 2638worship Brahman as all-pervasive; They share the 2639characteristics of the devas, being superior in 2640intelligence and having abundance of divine grace. 2641They visualize Brahman everywhere (brahma tatamam). 2642They have all-round (inside and outside) illumination 2643(sarva-prakASAH). They are the sages, who have 2644disciplined themselves and broken the barrier of the 2645limited mental equipment (sImAnam vidArya). Yet 2646others, who are merely human but earnest 2647practitioners, can worship Brahman only as an external 2648image. They can find light only in the outside 2649(bahiH-prakASAH).... 2650The Vedic passages need to be interpreted in terms of 2651the facility, direction and insight they provide to 2652the three classes of human beings who are intent on 2653spiritual fulfilment. Shankara also recognises that 2654not all people are alike eligible to approach the 2655infinite and absolute Brahman with devotion and 2656concentration; ......
2657May I please recommend most strongly this book. (Dr. 2658Ramachandra Rao has presented three illustrations of 2659the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma proponents. 2660These in his presentation are, Sayana, Saunaka and 2661Yaska respectively. 'RgVeda Darshana Volume Two Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2662Interpretations' S K Ramachandra Rao Kalpatharu 2663Research Academy Publications 1998 ) 2664It has all my own childish understanding presented 2665with the maturity of one born in this tradition. The 2666chapter on the Vedanta approach to understanding the 2667Rgveda is what I have used above and will return to 2668later before I launch into the Rgveda without 2669reference to later works.
2670Thank you again, Professor Krishnamurthy
2671Ken Knight
2672> 2673> 39. From that transcendental subtle vibration arose 2674> the omkara 2675> composed 2676> of three sounds. The omkara has unseen potencies and 2677> manifests 2678> automatically within a purified heart. It is the 2679> representation of 2680> the 2681> Absolute Truth in all three of His phases-the 2682> Supreme Personality, 2683> the 2684> Supreme Soul and the supreme impersonal truth. 2685Message 23290 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2686 Msg # 2687From: ken knight
2690Namaste all, 2691I have been wondering how to step into a careful study 2692of the hymns. Should I attempt a summary of previous 2693postings? Should I just get straight into some 2694examples of the word being used in context? 2695Finally, I decided to begin with a later understanding 2696of mAyA in advaitin terms but one which will link us 2697directly with the Rgveda.
2698Ken Knight
2699MAyA in the Vedas: Part 2. First posting.
2700Before we enter our time-machine we may like to take a 2701last look at the well-known countryside around us and 2702take a brief, farewell glance at: 2703PanchadaSI, Chapter II: 2704http://cc.1asphost.com/shastras/ebooks/other_books/panchadasi.htm Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
270550. This peculiar nature of Maya is corroborated by 2706the Vedic text which purports, there was neither 2707non-existence nor existence then (i.e., before 2708creation) but there was darkness (by which is meant 2709Maya). This attribution of existence to darkness (or 2710Maya) is due to its association with existence, not by 2711virtue of itself, in as much as it (existence) is 2712denied to it (in the just mentioned Vedic passage). 271351. Hence like nothingness, Maya also cannot be a 2714distinct entity in its own right. ….. 271554. Power does not operate in the whole of Brahman 2716but only in a part of it. Earth's power of producing 2717pots is not seen in all earth but in a portion or mode 2718of earth only, viz., in clay, i.e., earth mixed with 2719water. 272055. The Shruti says: 'Creation is only a quarter of 2721Brahman, the other three quarters are self-revealing' 2722(i.e., not dependent on Maya's effects for its 2723revelation). Thus does the Shruti say Maya covers but 2724a part of Brahman.'
2725Two of the Rgvedic hymns are being referred to here, 2726The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta) in verse 50 and 2727Purusha SUkta in verse 55. 2728By pressing the buttons marked 'NAsa' and 'Pur' on the 2729controls of our time-machine we accelerate off in a 2730perfect launch into our history.
2731Looking out we see the German scholars of the 19th and 273220th centuries, beavering away with their Sanskrit 2733texts. In their work we will find many definitions of 2734mAyA and there we can identify the culprits for the 2735eventual translation into the English as 'illusion.' 2736There is Monier Monier Williams writing in his 2737dictionary of Sanskrit that the meaning of the word 2738mAyA in the Rgveda is 'illusion' 'fraud' etc, this is 2739just not true. See 'The Doctrine of Maya in the 2740philosophy of the Vedanta' by P.B Shastri., p.5.
2741These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's 2742commentary on the Rgveda and we note that we can see 2743him as we pass through the 14th century AD. He is 2744writing the words prajnA and kapaTa, 'mental power' 2745and 'deception', as the definition of mAyA. And here 2746is his problem. Limited to an adhiyajna interpretation 2747of the Rgveda, limited to the outer forms, he has to 2748use division to distinguish between the elements of 2749meaning and by dividing his definition into these two 2750words he is losing the full flowering of the meaning 2751of mAyA as the power of a mysterious, intelligence, 2752appearing through its own heat, tapas, as many 2753different forms. He is missing the subtle meaning of 2754this extraordinary will-power underlying difference: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2755(anekarUpagrahanasAmarthya) 2756But he is too recent a commentator for us to stay and 2757discuss it with him so we zoom further into our 2758history. 2759The linear time-line that controls our imaginary 2760progress has a clever gateway mechanism that has been 2761irrevocably set at 400BC. Once we have zoomed past 2762that date we cannot return through the gateway until 2763this topic ends so Yaska is our latest authority to 2764whom we may go for non-dual insights.
2765The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta), RgVeda 10.129, and 2766Purusha SUkta, RgVeda 10.90 both appear on our 2767screens. To confirm on your screen go to: 2768www.flaez.ch 2769and navigate to Rgveda. Choose the Mandala(Book) and 2770SUkta(Hymn) numbers then choose Griffith to get 2771transliteration and a translation…if you want to know 2772more of the hymn go to 'The Works'. (Please note, this 2773site has some scanning errors and verse 5 of Purusha 2774SUkta is not about 'cats' but 'eats') 2775If you want to investigate the meanings click on the 2776blue words and be taken to the dictionary and other 2777hymns in which the word is used. This is a wonderful 2778tool for our use.
2779The collection known as the Rgveda saMhitA has two 2780parts: Mandalas 2-9 are the older while Mandalas 1 and 278110 are later additions. The above two hymns therefore 2782would be of the later collection and point to the 2783essential, unknowable mystery and the mystery of 2784appearance. Although often quoted with reference to 2785mAyA we will not spend much time with them now other 2786than take one line as our present mantra………please take 2787time to sound and listen to the Sanskrit:
2788aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná 2789paráH kíM canaása ||
2790'That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own 2791nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.'
2792Were you tempted to let the eyes skim over the 2793Sanskrit and grab at the English? 2794If so, please go back. Look at the words. Hear them 2795sound in the mind. Then let the words sound in the 2796mouth. It is through such listening that space 2797expands. Take time to be in that space with our 2798ancestors. We may be studying together via the wonders 2799of the Internet but please do not let the 'scanning' 2800habits we have developed to cope with 'information 2801overload' place a curtain over the mantras provided by 2802the Rshis for the purpose of explaining their Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2803insights.
2804Let us now look up RgVeda 1.164. Verse 37 which has 2805the singer proclaiming:
2806'What thing I truly am I know not clearly: mysterious, 2807fettered in my mind I wander.'
2808I know the feeling, my friend.
2809Maybe we should try to find the cave of the heart and 2810see if there is any light there. In that same hymn, 2811which is also very famous and known by the name 2812ViSvedevas to whom it is dedicated as well as being 2813the name of the poet, you will find mention of the 2814GAyatrI metre. This will now require us to go further 2815back in time into those Mandalas of the earlier 2816collection, in this case to 3.62. to the most well 2817known mantra in this GAyatrI metre:
281810, tát savitúr váreNyam bhárgo devásya dhiimahi | 2819dhíyo yó naH pracodáyaat ||
2820'May we meditate on the Supreme 2821On the all-pervading radiance of the ultimate source 2822of divine light. 2823May He inspire the innermost thoughts of our hearts.'
2824May we take that invocation into our future study. 2825Take note that we are here requesting the enlightening 2826of 'dhI' (see Key word posting). The lotus will open 2827at the touch of the Sun's warmth.
2828Later tonight I will post the first of the major uses 2829of the word in the Rgveda. I do not want this posting 2830to become too long and having the later sections 2831deleted without being read. They are too important.
2832'From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, 2833breathed forth.' 2834Message 23292 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2835 Msg # 2836From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
2839Namaste.
2840--- In [email protected], ken knight
2842> Finally, I decided to begin with a later understanding 2843> of mAyA in advaitin terms but one which will link us
2844Wonderful. This seems to be the right decision.
2845> http://cc.1asphost.com/shastras/ebooks/other_books/panchadasi.htm 2846> 2847> 55. The Shruti says: `Creation is only a quarter of 2848> Brahman, the other three quarters are self-revealing' 2849> (i.e., not dependent on Maya's effects for its 2850> revelation). Thus does the Shruti say Maya covers but 2851> a part of Brahman.'
2852Congratulations Ken-ji, for putting your finger at the right spot in 2853the Pancadashi.
2854> 2855> Two of the Rgvedic hymns are being referred to here, 2856> The Creation Hymn (NAsadIya SUkta) in verse 50 and 2857> Purusha SUkta in verse 55. 2858> These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's 2859> commentary on the Rgveda He is missing the subtle meaning of 2860> this extraordinary will-power underlying difference: 2861> (anekarUpagrahanasAmarthya)
2862I would also like to emphasize this along with you.
2863> Although often quoted with reference to 2864> mAyA we will not spend much time with them now other 2865> than take one line as our present mantra………please take 2866> time to sound and listen to the Sanskrit: 2867> aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná 2868> paráH kíM canaása || 2869> 2870> `That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own 2871> nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' 2872> 2873> Were you tempted to let the eyes skim over the 2874> Sanskrit and grab at the English? 2875> If so, please go back. Look at the words. Hear them 2876> sound in the mind. Then let the words sound in the 2877> mouth. It is through such listening that space 2878> expands. Take time to be in that space with our 2879> ancestors. We may be studying together via the wonders 2880> of the Internet but please do not let the `scanning' 2881> habits we have developed to cope with `information 2882> overload' place a curtain over the mantras provided by 2883> the Rshis for the purpose of explaining their 2884> insights.
2885Oh Boy! How many times I must have recited these lines, "aániid 2886avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM ..." without pausing to think about their Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2887significance!. Thank you Ken-ji, you are opening up my inner eyes!
2888> Let us now look up RgVeda 1.164. Verse 37 which has 2889> the singer proclaiming: 2890> 2891> `What thing I truly am I know not clearly: mysterious, 2892> fettered in my mind I wander.'
2893On my own and on behalf of all the readers on this list, I want to 2894bow down and prostrate to that Absolute and its play of mAyA which 2895has brought this Rg Veda exposition by you to this list and through 2896it to posterity!
2897PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda 2898Profvk 2899Message 23294 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2900 Msg # 2901From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
2904--- In [email protected], ken knight
2910Ken-ji, I am not able to locate this in the Brahma sutra book. I-1- 291131 is omething else.
2912> May I please recommend most strongly this book. (Dr. 2913> Ramachandra Rao has presented three illustrations of 2914> the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma proponents. 2915> These in his presentation are, Sayana, Saunaka and 2916> Yaska respectively. `RgVeda Darshana Volume Two 2917> Interpretations' S K Ramachandra Rao Kalpatharu 2918> Research Academy Publications 1998 )
2919Is this book available online?
2920PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda 2921Profvk 2922Message 23298 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2923 Msg # 2924From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
2927--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy"
2933> 2934> Congratulations Ken-ji, for putting your finger at the right spot 2935in 2936> the Pancadashi. 2937> 2938> > These Western scholars were dependant upon Sayana's 2939> > commentary on the Rgveda He is missing the subtle meaning of 2940> > this extraordinary will-power underlying difference: 2941> > (anekarUpagrahanasAmart)
2942Namaste,
2943Is it not inscrutable that Sayana was Vidyaranya's brother?!!
2944Regards,
2945Sunder 2946Message 23299 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2947 Msg # 2948From: ken knight
2951--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
2959Namaste Professor, 2960Again, thank you for your personal encouragement and 2961help. Although my own errors are obvious there is no 2962doubt that this study has been directed, by the powers 2963inherent in the Vedas and the all our individual 2964teachers upon whose shoulders we stand. Through the 2965miracles of cyber-space all the wonderful 2966contributions to our various topics are available to 2967any passing, curious intellect. How else could we have Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
2968met except through the Net so all salutations to this 2969wonderful innovation. 2970Not many members contribute but those who do provide 2971clues to the next step. It is then a matter of waiting 2972for a book to fall open at the right place and then to 2973follow as faithfully as possible that which is already 2974there in the text. As the mantra states: 2975'By Agni Agni is inflamed ' 2976agninAgniH samidhyate
2977In the next posting I am going to need your knowledge 2978of sandhi,
2979Once again, 2980Many sincere thanks,
2981Ken Knight 2982Message 23300 of 23511 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 2983 Msg # 2984From: ken knight
2987--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
2998Namaste Professor, 2999I would think that unlikely as it is so recent a 3000publication. I have copies of several volumes in this 3001series through SOAS library in London . If you know 3002anybody in Bangalore I think that is the surest place 3003to get copies. They are wonderful books for they guide 3004you to shruti and do not leave you wading through 3005acres of the author's opinions. The only problem for 3006some will be that he sometimes does not translate the 3007Sanskrit.
3008>this morning was of Brahma SUtras I.1.31 3009> > ('tat tad upAsanA-yogyatayA cha purushANAm') and 3010> > Shankara's commentary. 3011> 3012> Ken-ji, I am not able to locate this in the Brahma Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3013> sutra book. I-1- 3014> 31 is omething else.
3015In I.1 31 you will find upAsanA traividhyaAt . 3016Unfortunately I dot not have the Sanskrit for 3017Shankara's commentary but I do have the English as 3018translated by V.H.Date. I had picked up the Sanskrit 3019from Dr Rao's final chapter on the Vedantin 3020interpretation of the Rgveda and used his reference to 3021the BS. 3022In the context of this study I had done my best to 3023show through YAska's Nirukta how we needed to 3024understand the three ways of interpreting the Rks: 3025'These three levels, gross, subtle and causal as it 3026were, of Adhibhautica, regarding the external world, 3027Adhidaivica, regarding divine beings, and Adhyatmica, 3028regarding spiritual truths, is a central teaching in 3029Vedanta.' 3030However, I had also tried to explain the importance of 3031division, that it is there for explanation or 3032demonstration only. So really there are not three 3033'levels' nor 'stages', they are a fluid, coeval event. 3034So P.D.Shastri in 'The Doctrine of Maya in the 3035Philosophy of Vedanta ' writes, p.11: 3036'Still, distinctions ARE (his emphasis) to be made, 3037especially when they help us to a clearer 3038understanding of that which is really beyond them.'
3039Shankara, in his commentary on I.1.31, counters the 3040three-fold interpretations of his opponents and, in my 3041book's translation, states: 3042'But (as against this view of the VrittikArs) we hold 3043that Brahman alone is the topic (of knowledge, and not 3044of devotion.) 3045Now Dr Rao in the stated chapter on Vedanta's 3046interpretation of the Rgveda is looking at various 3047threefold distinctions. He quotes the text I gave you 3048and writes as quoted in the last posting. 3049What is most important is that a few pages later he 3050writes, on p.226, 3051'The three meanings are not meant to be disparate or 3052mutually exclusive. They are integrated in one 3053approach, as already menationed; in this approach, the 3054three meanings constitute three inter-related 3055dimensions ( Hence the expression 'tritaya'). The 3056approach involves reconciliation of the adhiyajna, the 3057adhi-daivata and the adhyAtma approaches discussed 3058above. It is also in accord with the eligibility and 3059capability of the devotees (manda-madhyama-uttama) 3060each of the meanings being meant for one of the levels 3061of the devotees but only in the main. The three 3062dimensions are aupplementary and complimentary to each 3063other; no level can be disregarded all together.' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3064And he continues with much more explanation.
3065I hope that this helps. If you would like to have more 3066of Dr Rao's words maybe we should exchange them 3067off-list as his is a long chapter.
3068Ken Knight 3069Message 23302 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3070 Msg # 3071From: ken knight
3074 Refinance 3075 Buy a Home 3076 Home Improvement 3077 Home Equity Loan 3078 Debt Consolidation Loan 3079--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
3087Namaste Professor, 3088(Please note, I posted this a while ago and it seems 3089to have disappeared. If it appears twice, many 3090apologies.)
3091Again, thank you for your personal encouragement and 3092help. Although my own errors are obvious there is no 3093doubt that this study has been directed, by the powers 3094inherent in the Vedas and the all our individual 3095teachers upon whose shoulders we stand. Through the 3096miracles of cyber-space all the wonderful 3097contributions to our various topics are available to 3098any passing, curious intellect. How else could we have 3099met except through the Net so all salutations to this 3100wonderful innovation. 3101Not many members contribute but those who do provide 3102clues to the next step. It is then a matter of waiting 3103for a book to fall open at the right place and then to 3104follow as faithfully as possible that which is already 3105there in the text. As the mantra states: 3106'By Agni Agni is inflamed ' 3107agninAgniH samidhyate
3108In the next posting I am going to need your knowledge 3109of sandhi, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3110Once again, 3111Many sincere thanks,
3112Ken Knight 3113Message 23303 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3114 Msg # 3115From: ken knight
3118Namaste all, 3119Here is the an example of mAyA in the RgVeda. 3120Chronologically it is not the first but it examples 3121much of what has already been presented in the 3122introduction postings. 3123In the next posting I will set out all the references 3124to mAyA in the RgVeda but, as a first major step into 3125studying can we now turn to my personal favourite hymn 3126and the one that started off my journey into the 3127RgVeda. This is a short hymn in the later collection.
3128RV 10.177. I am going to give it all here but may I 3129recommend that your own study takes you to 3130www.flaez.ch so that you can trace the meanings in the 3131dictionary. However please be careful with Monier 3132Williams especially as his definitions are sometimes 3133dominated by later thought. 3134In accordance with earlier postings I note the names 3135of the rishi and the deity along with the metre at the 3136outset. 3137Mandala 10.177 3138Rishi pataNga Deity mAyAbheda 3139Metre: 1 JagatI 48 syllables 4 padas 12 syllables 3140each 31412,3, trishtup 4 padas 11 syllables each
3142pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti 3143manasAvipashcitaH | 3144samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti 3145vedhasaH || 3146pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad 3147garbheantaH | 3148tAM dyotamAnAM svaryaM manISAM Rtasya padekavayo ni 3149pAnti || 3150apashyaM gopAmanipadyamAnamA ca parA ca 3151pathibhishcarantam | 3152sa sadhrIcIH sa viSUcIrvasAna A 3153varIvartibhuvaneSvantaH||
3154May I please remind people of my earlier posting, #6, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3155in this series. Remember the three meanings 3156Adhibhautic: regarding the external world 3157Adhidaivic: regarding divine beings 3158Adhiyatmic: regarding spiritual truths 3159But remember also that the three meanings are 3160distinguished solely for the purpose of explanation. 3161In essence the perception of the physical sun as it 3162rises, the rising of the sun of inspiration in our 3163'inner space' and the all-pervading spiritual sun is 3164but a single event known in its fullness or fruition: 3165Recall too Yaska's Nirukta; yajnadaivate pushpaphale 3166devatadhyAtme vA |
3167Griffith's translation of X.177 is as follows:
31681. The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold 3169the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might. 3170Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the 3171wise disposers seek the station of his rays. 31722 The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst 3173the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it: 3174And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this 3175radiant, heavenly-bright invention. 31763 I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth, 3177approaching and departing on his pathways. 3178He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour, 3179within the worlds continually travels.
3180Now may I please ask the Sanskritists on this site for 3181help. This is the only hymn in the RgVeda dedicated 3182to MAyAbheda. Amazingly, to me, I have found very 3183little interest in this hymn in the books I have read. 3184Yet to me it is full of possibility; maybe too much 3185personal interpretation is going on.
3186How should I translate mAyAbheda when sandhi is 3187considered: is this the mAyA with bheda ( difference) 3188or with (abheda) ?
3189Now let us take this hymn line by line:
3190'The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold 3191the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might 3192(power) (mAyA).'
3193Here we have mAyA being translated by Griffith as 3194'magic might' and here it belongs to the asura. The 3195root of asura is 'as' which means 'breath', see also 3196'asu' in Monier Williams. Now we need to understand 3197that in the RV then asura can be godly or demonic as 3198well as being the title for the Supreme Spirit. 3199Also we note that power transcends difference. Fire Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3200has the power to burn but whether we use it to light a 3201ritual candle or torture a victim; whether we use the 3202power of speech to praise or blaspheme, is not in the 3203domain of that power.
3204I like the use of the word 'sapient' by Griffith for 3205it has that quality of special wisdom. Discrimination 3206takes us beyond the problems of opposites and duality 3207and so the poet says that the sapient perceive this 3208power, this magic might, with their heart (Griffith 3209uses spirit) and mind. 3210Now let us look at the Sanskrit words used here:
3211pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti 3212manasAvipashcitaH |
3213hRdA: (with inst.) the heart, the seat of feelings 3214and emotions, soul, mind as seat of thought and 3215intellectual operations. 3216Pashyanti: they see 3217manasA: the mind as all mental powers. (Mn vii.6 the 3218eye, divine eye) (Whoops. That has not been written 3219yet but the idea is in this text.) 3220vipashcitaH : expresses difference, distinction or 3221away from. discernment, right knowledge. MMW directs 3222us to the root vip for vipashcit. This he gives as 3223meaning tremble, vibrate.
3224This reminds us of that 'trembling' experienced by the 3225seers when they are known as 'vipra'. See Key Words 3226posting of this series.
3227So this first line is telling us that the wise 3228discriminate and transcend difference when realising 3229that Supreme power through their own 'inner eye' of 3230the heart/mind. 3231What is this bird that is observed by the wise? 3232It is the sun as it follows its pathway across the 3233heavens. 3234But remember that this is the physical sun, the sun of 3235inspiration and of direct knowledge and the Supreme 3236Light. The wise, through discrimination in mind/heart 3237perceive the three levels in the one event, not three 3238discrete events that would be the effect of the 3239intellect alone, but the directly experienced 3240continuum. That is how they perceive the magical 3241might, mAyA, of the asura.
3242'Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the 3243wise disposers seek the station of his rays.' 3244samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti 3245vedhasaH || Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3246In the ocean of the heavens from which the celestial 3247waters flow, in the depths of the 'inner space', the 3248wise seek out the station, maybe of departure and 3249destination, that place of stillness, of the sun's 3250rays.
3251We may visualise ourselves seated in a gathering at 3252the edge of a forest, faces brushed by a gentle breeze 3253as we await the first appearance of the rising sun, 3254listening to the quiet chant of the village singer and 3255poet. We are being invited to join the company of the 3256wise through this hymn..
3257'The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst 3258the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it: 3259And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this 3260radiant, heavenly-bright invention.'
3261pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad 3262garbheantaH | 3263tAM dyotamAnAM svaryaM manISAM Rtasya padekavayo ni 3264pAnti ||
3265Please take the time to make use of www.flaez.ch to 3266explore the meanings of the individual words. No 3267translation can touch the immense vision being offered 3268here for truly the Vedas are infinite, anantaH vai 3269vedaH. The Word is borne in the Supreme Sun and hence 3270inspirational speech emerges out of the rising sun 3271within the sky of our heart/mind. It emerges here, 3272shining brighter than the brightest of earth-bound 3273jewels, in this seat of sacrifice, in this place of 3274fulfilment of that all-pervading and directing power, 3275Rta.
3276Hearing the mantras of the Vedas expands dhI, the 3277imprisoning walls of the limited view crumble, and the 3278mantras bring wisdom to those that see/hear the Sruti. 3279They turn the hearer into mantradrasTAs, those who see 3280the mantras because we become the mantras and 3281experience them not as the sun outside us, nor as the 3282sun within us but as the Sun itself.
3283And so the poet who leads our gathering here at the 3284edge of the forest, as the warmth of the sun permeates 3285our bodies, states his own personal experience as he 3286changes from speaking about the wise as other than 3287himself :
3288apashyaM gopAmanipadyamAnamA ca parA ca 3289pathibhishcarantam | 3290sa sadhrIcIH sa viSUcIrvasAna A 3291varIvartibhuvaneSvantaH|| Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3292'I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth, 3293approaching and departing on his pathways. 3294He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour, 3295within the worlds continually travels.'
3296Sound the Sanskrit. Take your time over it, apashyam…I 3297saw. The poet himself is here united with his 3298ancestors, the great rishis. He had the same direct 3299experience of that true light that lights all, he 3300discerned the magical power, mAyAh, of the asura 3301through the manifesting Word. 3302That Word continually is, continually 'travels'.
3303May we all be mantradrasTAs and seek the station of 3304its rays.
3305I add the following as my own interpretation…as 3306opposed to translation of this hymn. Hopefully you 3307will find time to come up with your own. 3308'As the sun rises and falls, as though born from the 3309ocean, its rays emerge like the cows from the barn 3310being directed by the chief Herdsman. I, (the poet) 3311observed this. Like a bird it flies, glorious in its 3312manifestation. It is the source of speech; deep, loud 3313sounds are born in the womb of the sun which arises 3314from the unmanifest (symbolised by the ocean as sea 3315and sky) and its rays or cows are the words which rise 3316and fall, manifesting in and through the creation but 3317coming from unseen levels of speech. 3318The Gandharva, guardian of the Soma, (the moon which 3319reflects the rays to Earth), regulates the flow of the 3320words (rays) which terminate well in beautiful speech. 3321Those who perceive with discrimination through mind 3322and heart behold the whole glory and power of this 3323mAyA and its inner meaning. 3324Those who have this inner sight are the poets (kavis) 3325who can hear and pronounce those deep sounds and whose 3326meaning is held in the prescribed ritual action.' 3327Message 23304 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3328 Msg # 3329From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
3332--- In [email protected], ken knight
3337> pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti 3338> manasAvipashcitaH | 3339> samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti 3340> vedhasaH || 3341> pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad 3342> garbheantaH | 3343> 3344> 3345> May I please remind people of my earlier posting, #6, 3346> in this series. Remember the three meanings 3347> Adhibhautic: regarding the external world 3348> Adhidaivic: regarding divine beings 3349> Adhiyatmic: regarding spiritual truths 3350> But remember also that the three meanings are 3351> distinguished solely for the purpose of explanation. 3352> In essence the perception of the physical sun as it 3353> rises, the rising of the sun of inspiration in our 3354> `inner space' and the all-pervading spiritual sun is 3355> but a single event known in its fullness or fruition: 3356> Recall too Yaska's Nirukta; yajnadaivate pushpaphale 3357> devatadhyAtme vA | 3358> 3359> Griffith's translation of X.177 is as follows: 3360> 3361> 1. The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold 3362> the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might. 3363> Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the 3364> wise disposers seek the station of his rays. 3365> 2 The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst 3366> the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it: 3367> And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this 3368> radiant, heavenly-bright invention. 3369> 3 I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth, 3370> approaching and departing on his pathways. 3371> He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour, 3372> within the worlds continually travels. 3373> 3374> Now may I please ask the Sanskritists on this site for 3375> help. This is the only hymn in the RgVeda dedicated 3376> to MAyAbheda. Amazingly, to me, I have found very 3377> little interest in this hymn in the books I have read. 3378> Yet to me it is full of possibility; maybe too much 3379> personal interpretation is going on.
3380Namaste, Ken-ji
3381You have a gold mine here! I shall take time to carefully read 3382your post. But here is a quick first reaction.The word 'patamga' 3383occurs in the same context in ShatashlokI (shloka No.51, whose first 3384two lines I quote below). And you can see Shankara must have had RV 3385X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note the identity of 3386words): Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3387taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato mAyayAktaM patamgaM 3388buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM vedhasas-taM /
3389tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self 3390pashyanti : discover 3391buddhyA : by their wisdom 3392patamgaM : the individual soul 3393mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA 3394pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray, reflected, 3395parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self 3396antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of consciousness.
3397Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the individual soul , 3398because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall.
3399pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti 3400manasAvipashcitaH | 3401samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti 3402vedhasaH ||
3403vipashcitaH : Those who see it right 3404pashyanti : discover 3405patamgaM : the individual soul 3406asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric mAyA. 3407kavayaH : The wise 3408vicakSate : see through 3409antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness 3410marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays.
3411Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti" into the above 3412interpretation.
3413Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest you may explore 3414whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes sense in the whole 3415hymn 177.
3416PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda 3417Profvk 3418Message 23306 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index 3419 Msg # 3420From: ken knight
3423--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
3430over-excited. 3431With Sruti as our light let us proceed. 3432It is as if we are two similar birds on the same tree 3433both enjoying the fruit with, maybe, Sunderji 3434watching. 3435As I suggested last post to you, it does seem as if 3436some subtle string-pulling is going on and now we have 3437the link to your ShatashlokI posting. As with 3438yourself, I will have to go through your posting later 3439today ( I have to visit a friend who has had MS for 20 3440years and whose wife died suddenly last year, at the 3441age of 51, and on whom he was dependent.)
3442When I first looked at X.177. 'pataMga' was one of the 3443mysteries, was it the name of the poet, of the sun, of 3444a bird or some flying insect, how does horse become a 3445meaning ? 3446I settled on a translation as 'falcon'. In this I had 3447the image of an individual soul that soared high, 3448possessed great speed and would swoop with great 3449precision on its food, the Sruti, rather than circle 3450gracefully like a vulture which feeds off the dead 3451carcasses of others' killings. Of course such imagery 3452is located in difference but it was a help at the 3453time. 'Falcon' gives the image of an independent 3454spirit and this appears in the other hymn that uses 3455the word I.163 which I post below, and which is 3456clearly the atman-brahman of later understanding:
3457pataMga
3458RV.I.163. rishi: DIrghatamas deity: eulogy of the 3459horse metre: trishTup 34606. aatmaánaM te mánasaaraád ajaanaam avó divaá 3461patáyantam pataMgám | 3462shíro apashyam pathíbhiH sugébhir areNúbhir 3463jéhamaanam patatrí ||
3464I.163.6 'Thyself from far I recognized in spirit,-a 3465Bird that from below flew through the heaven. 3466I saw thy head still soaring, striving upward by paths 3467unsoiled by dust, pleasant to travel.'
3468I noticed in your post that using your knowledge of 3469quantum theory, you have managed to construct a 3470'Non-locality Time Slip Device' to break the code on 3471my barrier that I had placed in the 4th Century BC for 3472our Time Machine. 3473As we are two minds in one in this adventure I have 3474delighted in following you and offer for some 3475additional thoughts the following from the Brahma 3476Sutras: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3477In the following, the first reference is to the BS 3478itself. The second gives the page number and the line 3479in the Vani Vilas Press edition of 'The Work of Sri 3480Shankaracharya, pub. 1910. A book that I do not have 3481but I give it here in case anyone has access to a 3482copy.) 3483BS PataMga: II.1.9 Q 300.19 449.16 III.2.9 3484(Q) 577.11 704.14 III..3.31 667.8 815.10
3485II.1.9 In his commentary Shankara directs us to 3486Gaudapada's kArika I.16 3487'The moment the individual soul is aroused from the 3488beginningless slumber of mAyA, that very moment he 3489realizes the non-dual condition which is beyond birth, 3490dream and sleep.
3491III.2.9 3492BS states: 'But the same ( soul is awakened); because 3493of action, remembrance, Sruti and precept.' 3494Shankara's commentary includes: 3495'But one soul is distinguished from others in point of 3496specific works and knowledge. Perhaps man will not be 3497able to make this distinction between soul and soul, 3498but God is; just as the flamingo is reported to be 3499able to separate milk from water when the two are 3500mixed together. Besides, the comparison of the soul 3501with a drop of water is not apt at all; because we 3502have repeatedly pointed out that the soul is not 3503different from the highest Atman; but it is the latter 3504which on account of its connection with the upAdhis is 3505only metaphorically kn own as the soul. And it is the 3506difference in the upAdhis again which accounts for the 3507difference between on soul and another.'
3508BS III.3.31 3509'(The path) cannot (be connected) as a rule to all 3510(the vidyAs; for in this way there will be) no 3511contradiction; (this is known) from Sruti and 3512inference (ie. smRti).' 3513Shankara comments: 'We have seen that the path of the 3514gods has some meaning with reference to saguna vidyAs 3515but has no meaning with reference to the nirguna 3516AtmavidyA.' Although the content of the commentary is 3517of the journey along the different 'paths' I cannot 3518find, not having the Sanskrit, where Shankara uses 3519this in the commentary.
3520(Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if 3521one is available.)
3522Just fancy Shankara having such a clear love of and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3523knowledge in RV.X.177 when he composed shloka 51. 3524Wonderful. Brilliant. Maybe he is sitting in our 3525tree, watching with a smile.
3526May I jump further forward to the Siva Sutras with the 3527prayer to SaMkara, the Supreme Awareness [SaMkaraM 3528caitanyam: Sam (the bliss of revelation of the supreme 3529non-dualism) Karoti (brings about ) iti SankaraH ie. 3530SaMkara is one who brings about the bliss of the 3531revelation of the supreme non-dualism.] 3532Jaideva Singh translates the Sloka as: 3533'That consciousness of SaMkara is ever visctorious 3534which in its wholeness is non-dual in reality though 3535having an appearance of duality, from which the class 3536of Rudra and Kshetrajna springs and in which it comes 3537to rest, which is the fundamental Reality ( yat 3538tattvam), from which bursts forth into view the 3539universe, whose form is this universe, from whose 3540unimpeded Free Will ever leaps forth his divine power 3541which is a mass of bliss, bringing about the 3542unsurpassed, immortal spanda piciple (the primal 3543creative pulsation).'
3544I think we are going to have to stay close together in 3545this journey into the gold mine as I keep seeing 3546diamonds in the walls.
3547Thank you for your good company
3548Ken Knight
3549>And you can see Shankara 3550> must have had RV 3551> X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note 3552> the identity of 3553> words): 3554> 3555> taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato 3556> mAyayAktaM patamgaM 3557> buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM 3558> vedhasas-taM / 3559> 3560> tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self 3561> pashyanti : discover 3562> buddhyA : by their wisdom 3563> patamgaM : the individual soul 3564> mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA 3565> pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
3566> reflected, 3567> parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self 3568> antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of 3569> consciousness. 3570> 3571> Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the 3572> individual soul , 3573> because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall. 3574> 3575> pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti 3576> manasAvipashcitaH | 3577> samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate 3578> marIcInAmpadamichanti 3579> vedhasaH || 3580> 3581> vipashcitaH : Those who see it right 3582> pashyanti : discover 3583> patamgaM : the individual soul 3584> asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric 3585> mAyA. 3586> kavayaH : The wise 3587> vicakSate : see through 3588> antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness 3589> marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays. 3590> 3591> Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti" 3592> into the above 3593> interpretation. 3594> 3595> Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest 3596> you may explore 3597> whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes 3598> sense in the whole 3599> hymn 177. 3600> 3601> PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda profvk ======Message 23309 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
Namaste Kenji,
Only watching in awe!
In your first posting, you do mention Patanga as the Rishi of the Hymn.
Shankara's Complete Works are online at URL: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details http://www.brahmasutra.iitk.ac.in/framepage.htm
Regards,
Sunder
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> > (Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if > one is available.) Message 23316 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Dennis Waite"
Dear Ken,
You said: "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One group member said early on that he was not interested in going to such depth into this subject so i apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get over-excited."
You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so much here. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts would require many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simply skimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I truly hope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who are giving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have some comments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that there are other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of the months of effort that Ken must have put into this?
Best wishes,
Dennis Message 23319 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
From: "Peter M"
Dear Ken,
The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one of the silent majority and also a new member of just one week. Like Dennis, I very much enjoy the enthusiasm that thrills through your every post. I also appreciate the time and knowledge required to bring such a wealth of material together.
I am sure the weakness is mine when I say that I do not always follow what is the underlying issue you are attempting to bring to the surface in your many references and inclusions of material, verses and translations in each mail. There is so much in each mail that it would take me a week study each one fully, and then I would only be scratching the surface, I suspect. So, a little guidance as to your primary focus and aim in each mail would help me to know where best to focus my attention and to appreciate what parts are background context. But that may just be me, as I said above.
Many thanks for what you write and the time you give to doing so.
Best wishes,
Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Dennis Waite [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 18 June 2004 22:06 To: [email protected] Subject: [advaitin] Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177
Dear Ken,
You said: "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One group member said early on that he was not interested in going to such depth into this subject so i apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details over-excited."
You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so much here. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts would require many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simply skimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I truly hope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who are giving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have some comments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that there are other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of the months of effort that Ken must have put into this?
Best wishes,
Dennis Message 23322 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Dennis Waite
Good Morning Dennis, I am feeling guilty for making you feel guilty. We English are World Champions at feeling guilty.
I am also feeling guilty because today is National Quiet Day here in the UK....we used to have a Sabbath but now we have one quiet day a year and soon it will be one in the decade...... and I should be on my way to Southwark Cathedral for a meditation time.
So I am typing quietly while mentally singing the refrain from The Incredible String Band's song: 'Maya, Maya, all this world is but a play, be thou the joyful player.' They don't sing them like that anymore!!!!
Now, people keep referring to the amount of work put into these posts. There is not much work involved as I love to study in my own peculiar way. Also, I am the original, anti-social, grumpy old man. 14 years ago, at the age of 50, I declared to family and friends that henceforth I would go to one party a year and spend only a little time in social chit-chat about house prices, holidays and babies at family and other gatherings. Books, quiet reflection, being with my wife and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details playing with our dog is bliss; parties are not.
Thanks for your mail which initiated Peter's. As a teacher, I do not mean that as a 'spiritual teacher', I work best when people ask questions and I hope that at some stage this will happen. Also, I know that out there in cyber space there are people who will have the insight to answer questions where I fail. I am just a sounding board.
Finally on the 'guilty theme' I did feel great uncertainty about taking on this subject in the awareness of the South Asian core membership of this group. I respect the tradition that would bar me from such a study but have taken my authority to go ahead firstly from Anandamayee Ma and secondly from a strange coincidence a few years ago that I will not detail here now.
Finally, finally, the Rgveda itself. The hymns come out of the deepest sounds in the universe which the rishis sought out. My words skim the surface, the rishis plunge into the depths and it is only through their words that we can dive deep: RV IV.50.1 yás tastámbha sáhasaa ví jmó ántaan bR'haspátis triSadhasthó ráveNa | tám pratnaása R'Sayo diídhyaanaaH puró vípraa dadhire mandrájihvam ||
'Him who with might hath propped earth's ends, who sitteth in threefold seat, Brhaspati, with thunder, Him of the pleasant tongue have ancient sages, deep-thinking, holy singers, set before them.'
Have a happy National Quiet Day,
Ken Message 23323 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: Bob Freedman
Namaste,
I am not a miner; perhaps I'm more like the canary that expires from something powerful but unseen/unknown. At the same time I sense that something significant is going on. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or phrase that provides some illumination--although I can't find the quotation, I remember that several ji's have said that if someone can find one word of illumination in [an essay] then the information is justified. As for the rest, I have a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of your posts, and I will return to them as time allows. For those who don't keep such a file, they will be able to search for the topic in the archives.
Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your posts. They are packed with valuable information--and they seem elegant and poetic.
Thank you so much for providing this information.
One of the silent majority,
Bob Freedman
Peter M wrote: > Dear Ken, > > > > The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one of > the silent majority > > You said: > "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One > group member said early on that he was not interested > in going to such depth into this subject so i > apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get > over-excited." Message 23324 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Bob Freedman
Namaste Bob, That's the great thing about life isn't it? The day we find out what's going on you can be sure ignorance is waiting with its cloak so it's probably better that we stay with the sense of mystery. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Dennis having encouraged the 'silent majority' means the tree is getting quite populated.
Enjoy the fruits,
Ken Knight
> > Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or > phrase that provides > some illumination--although I can't find the > quotation, I remember that > several ji's have said that if someone can find one > word of illumination > in [an essay] then the information is justified. As > for the rest, I > have a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of > your posts, and I > will return to them as time allows. For those who > don't keep such a > file, they will be able to search for the topic in > the archives. > > Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your > posts. They are > packed with valuable information--and they seem > elegant and poetic. > > Thank you so much for providing this information. > > One of the silent majority, > > Bob Freedman > > > > > Peter M wrote: > > Dear Ken, > > > > > > > > The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to > speak up - as I am one of > > the silent majority > > > > You said: > > "And we are the only two miners it would seem. > One > > group member said early on that he was not > interested > > in going to such depth into this subject so i Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
> > apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do > get > > over-excited." > > Message 23325 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all,
Professor Krishnamurthy had asked me to consider the use of pataMga as 'the individual soul' in this amazing hymn. As I considered his direction I found myself returning to old questions of mine, 'Did our Vedic ancestors have a concept of an individual soul that is recognisable within our own ideas?' And secondly, 'How does an individual soul fit into non-dual philosophies?' The second is for other studies but I thought that it would be useful to present some of concepts identifiable in the Vedic hymns relevant to that first question. Again, I am giving you information that only glimpses the immensity of the Vedic vision. Your own interest can take you further.
Individual soul
I wonder if the people of the Vedic times had such a concept?
In the West, with our dominant dualistic heritage, we commonly envisage, at best, an individual particle of light or drop of water in an all-pervading light or ocean. Even those who think they are teaching advaita are in fact followers of Ramanuja…….. although they probably never have heard of him. As Shankara writes, 'Besides, the comparison of the soul with a drop of water is not apt at all; because we have repeatedly pointed out that the soul is not different from the highest Atman; but it is the latter which on account of its connection with the upAdhis is only metaphorically known as the soul. ' (See last posting on pataMga)
I think that this is closer to the context of the Vedic vision. When I read the Rgveda I do not get the impression of a people seeking rescue from an oppressive, disgusting physical environment and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details transportation to a garden of everlasting delight. As stated earlier, they see and feel an all-pervading power of such immensity and mystery that they want to join in with the will of that power: Hence the notion of 'kratu', 'will power,' but more on that later. They have an understanding of the human psyche and use words such as manas, hRd, citta, dhI and kratu. (incidentally, I think a very worthwhile study would be of the verbal roots jIv, tan,cit, man, jnA, vid and dhi used in the Vedic context and recorded by Panini. If anyone has the time and interest maybe we could do this together off-list some time.)
However when we look for an individual soul as we know it I am not sure that it is there. For example, when they use the word 'asu' it has to do with that vitality in the individual that releases the universal power manifesting through the gods. This is linked with the jiva. Together they overcome the holding power of the night and so are linked with Dawn, Usha: RV I 113 16 úd iirdhvaM jiivó ásur na aágaad ápa praágaat táma aá jyótir eti | aáraik pánthaaM yaátave suúryaayaáganma yátra pratiránta aáyuH ||
'Arise! the breath (asu), the life (jIva), again hath reached us: darkness hath passed away and light approacheth. She, for the Sun, hath left a path to travel, we have arrived where men prolong existence.'
RV. I. 140. 7,8 sá saMstíro viSTíraH sáM gRbhaayati jaanánn evá jaanatiír nítya aá shaye | púnar vardhante ápi yanti devyàm anyád várpaH pitróH kRNvate sácaa ||
'Now covered, now displayed he grasps as one who knows his resting-place in those who know him well. A second time they wax and gather Godlike power, and blending both together change their Parents' form.' tám agrúvaH keshíniiH sáM hí rebhirá uurdhvaás tasthur mamrúSiiH praáyáve púnaH | taásaaM jaraám pramuñcánn eti naánadad ásum páraM janáyañ jiivám ástRtam ||
'The maidens with long, tresses hold him in embrace; dead, they rise up again to meet the Living One. Releasing them from age with a loud roar he comes, filling them with new spirit (asu), living (jIva), unsubdued.' Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
This renewal…...... the sun disappears beneath the horizon and the reappears…...... occurs in the tales of the Rbhus. ( I keep referring to these and you will find out more about them and their magic power later on). There is a term 'vayas' for the life force of the individual which is governed by another power in a lifetime, (ayu), which controls the number of breaths of a lifetime ...... to put it into its nearest western context. So we read:
RV.111.1 tákSan ráthaM suvR'taM vidmanaápasas tákSan hárii indravaáhaa vR'SaNvasuu | tákSan pitR'bhyaam Rbhávo yúvad váyas tákSan vatsaáya maatáraM sacaabhúvam ||
'Working with skill they wrought the lightly rolling car: they wrought the Bays who bear Indra and bring great gifts. The Rbhus for their Parents made life (vayas) young again; and fashioned for the calf a mother by its side.'
But superior to all these is breath, prANa. Just as 'That One breathed, without breath'…NasadIya sUkta if you remember the earlier postings….. so that breath breathes in us.
RV X 59.6 ásuniite púnar asmaásu cákSuH púnaH praaNám ihá no dhehi bhógam | jyók pashyema suúryam uccárantam ánumate mRLáyaa naH svastí ||
'Give us our sight again, O Asuniti, give us again our breath (prANa) and our enjoyment. Long may we look upon the Sun uprising; O Anumati, favour thou and bless us.'
Notice 'Anumati' there and the verbal root 'an' which gives us the 'breath' in Atman.
Atman in the Rgveda is often translated as 'spirit' because of its basis in breath, and this brings us to a crucial verse dedicated to the Sun, sUrya:
RV.115.1 citráM devaánaam úd agaad ániikaM cákSur mitrásya váruNasyaagnéH aápraa | dyaávaapRthivií antárikSaM suúrya aatmaá jágatas tasthúSash ca ||
'The brilliant presence of the Gods hath risen, the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details eye of Mitra, Varuna and Agni. The soul(AtmA) of all that moveth not or moveth, the Sun hath filled the air (AtmA) and earth and heaven.'
RV. VII. 101.6 sá retodhaá vRSabháH sháshvatiinaaM tásminn aatmaá jágatas tasthúSash ca | tán ma Rtám paatu shatáshaaradaaya yuuyám paata svastíbhiH sádaa naH ||
'He is the Bull of all, and their impregnator, he holds the life (AtmA) of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.'
So this AtmA, in the Rigveda is both the universal and the individual essence. If we jump forward to the Upanishads we can find evidence for this non-dual AtmA evolving into a reincarnating, individual Atman. (Br.Up.IV.4.3, also have a look at Ch. Up. VIII.12.1, especially if you have Shankara's commentary which is very interesting on this topic but will take us into that other discussion arising from my second question above.)
So I am left with the same question as I have had for some time, 'Did our Vedic ancestors have a concept of the individual soul as we have inherited it from later thought.?' My gut-feeling is that they did not as they were more of a communal society than we are today in our urbanised communities. In these the individual tries to take the universal power of life to achieve personal goals rather than serve the universal. 'Self-empowerment' books fill the shelves of our bookshops but they, alas, useful as they are for a time result in an individual mAyA that is really a false appearance, an upAdhi.
Ken Knight Message 23326 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
> hymn 177.
Namaste Professor, This took me off in two directions. One resulted in the posting that I have just made. The second had me diving into Panini's Dhattupatha which produced a couple of interesting leads. I will look further at that tomorrow. On the way, however, I did come across another translation of X.177. It is by Swami Sharvananda from the collection of essays 'The Cultural Heritage of India' pub.1937 His essay is entitled 'The Vedas and their Religious Teachings. In this is a sub-section 'Personal and Impersonal Godhead and Soul.'
Just as we have done he starts with the nAsadIya and purusha sUktas and then coincidentally goes to X.177....so we must be doing something right with this study. His translation is clumsy but shows the influence of later thoughts on reincarnation. The following is a direct quote with his brackets:
'The sages in their minds realise that the Bird ( all-pervasive God) is covered up by the mAyA of the mighty One. The seers describe it as happening in the Ocean (infinity of being); they all feel desirous to reach the supreme Abode of life.....I saw the herdsman (individual soul) who never falls, but sometimes near and sometimes far, is traversing various paths. Sometimes he wears many clothes together and sometimes he puts them on severally, and thus he is going and coming to this world again and again.'
There's another point of view for you. After following the same path as us into RV I.164 and the two birds he concludes that 'These passages clearly indicate that the individual soul is immortal and transmigrates in various ways to different planes of existence. Further, the identity of the individual soul with the cosmic spirit has been revealed in two well known hymns...' He goes on to refer to RV.IV.26. 1-2 and RV. X. 125.3.
I would like to challenge some of his conclusions as they are based in later development in the Upanishads, especially as he writes of the delusory power of mAyA in the Rgveda, but I thought that a different 'voice' should be heard here.
More anon. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Ken Knight Message 23327 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Lady Joyce"
Kenji wrote...
But if we could but hear the pranava shabda...... http://www.omshaantih.com/Photogallery/Feathers/Warbler/Pranava%20shabda.htm
Love, Joyce Message 23328 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "asridhar19"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Just pondering about this question from far lower levels where my thinking unfortunately stands today.
From an individual stand point, what is unique to the individual is not probably something like the *soul*. The non-existent thing called the *Ahamkara* attributes to itself the perceptions of the senses, actionsof the sense organs etc.? These equipments or the body, mind, intellect equipment act energised in the precense of *that* and *that* is all pervading, omniscient, of the nature of existence, consciousness and bliss? Thus what *animates* this body ( In body, I am including the causal body or the bundle of vasanas that acquire the appropriate subtle and gross bodies as appropriate) and makes it think, act etc., is not some individual soul with special and unique charactersitics and unique animating powers but *that* or *brahman* that pervades all and is present in equal and impartial measure in everything- moving and unmoving.
Typical analogy one comes across is one electricity principle that Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details ligths bulbs, heats heaters, rotates fan blades- each equipment made to work according to its nature. It is not as if each of these equipments have an individualised powerer that makes them function in a certain way though, if they had a ego, the ego would attribute lighting up, providing air etc. to itself depending on which equipment it is in.
Many thousand namaskarams to all Sridhar Message 23330 of 23513 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, By now those who have seen previous postings will have noted my acknowledgement of the importance of Sri Anandamayee in my life. This morning I picked my way through masses of opened books, littering all tables, to bookshelves where an unopened book might produce some relevant insight. My eyes chose a little book surrounded by fat books; it is a collection of discourses by Anandamayee. The very first discourse is not only generally relevant to our discussions on this site, or anywhere else, but it has precise relevance to the hymn dedicated to mAyAbheda and how the wise use discrimination. I am posting it all as it is a valuable reminder of what we are about:
Concerning the value of religious and philosophical discourses. Mataji said:
'By listening repeatedly to discussions and discourses on topics of this kind, the path to first-hand knowledge of what has been heard gradually opens out. You know, it is as when water uninterruptedly dripping on a stone finally makes a hole in it, and then a flood may suddenly surge through, which will bring Enlightenment.
Be it the perusal of Sacred Texts, listening to religious discourses, engaging in kirtana (singing of praise songs) God must be the alpha and omega of whatever is done. When reading, read about Him, when talking, talk of Him and when singing, sing His praises. These three practices are intrinsically the same; but because people respond differently. the same is expressed in three different ways to suit each person's temperament and capacity for assimilation. Essentially there is only He and He alone, although Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details everyone has his own individual path that leads to Him. What is the right path for each, depends on his personal predilection, based on the specific character of his inner qualifications.
Take for instance the study of Vedanta. Some seekers become completely drowned in it, just as others may so lose themselves in kirtana as to fall into a trance. A student of Vedanta may become wholly absorbed in his texts, even more so than the one who gets carried away by kirtana. According to one's specific line of approach, one will be able to achieve full concentration through the study of a particular Scripture, or by some other means.
First comes listening, then reflection, and last of all the translation into action of what has been heard and pondered over. This is why one has first of all to listen, so that later on each may be able to select Vedanta or kirtana or whatever else be in his own line.
Have you never come across people making light of kirtana, saying, "What is there to be gained by it ?" Nevertheless, after listening to it for some length of time, they actually develop a liking for it. Therefore, one must listen before one can reflect, and then later, what has been heard and reflected upon will take shape in action suited to the person concerned. To listen to discourses on God or Truth is certainly beneficial, provided one does not allow oneself to be moved by a spirit of fault-finding or disparagement, should there be differences of outlook to one's own. To find fault with others creates obstacles for everyone all around: for him who criticizes, for him who is blamed, as well as for those who listen to the criticism. Whereas, what is said in a spirit of appreciation is fruitful to everybody. For only where there is no question of regarding anything as inferior or blameworthy can one call it satsang.
Who is known as a Vaishnava? One who sees Vishnu everywhere. And as a SAkta? One who beholds the Great Mother, and nothing save Her. In truth, all the various ways of thought spring from one common source. Who then is to be blamed, who to be reviled or suppressed? All are equal in essence.
Thou art Mother, Thou art Father, Thou art Friend and Thou art Master, Truly, Thou art all in all. Every name is Thy Name, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Every quality Thy Quality, Every form Thy Form indeed.
Yet He is also where no forms exist, as pure unmanifested Being; all depends on one's avenue of approach. Is it not said that what is viewed by the Saivas as the Supreme (parama) Siva, and by those who inquire into the Self, as the One Self is none other than the Brahman Itself? In reality there is no contradiction , so long as the slightest difference is perceived, even by a hair's breadth, how can one speak of the state of Pure Being? For this reason, no matter what path anyone may choose, it is That. Vedanta actually means the end of difference and non-difference. (Anandamayee only spoke Bengali and she is here playing with Bengali in which the letters B and V sound alike. Hence Veda can sound like Bheda which, as we know from RV X. 177, means 'difference'. As anta means 'end' she constructs Vedanta as the 'end of difference.')
While engaging in sAdhanA one must concentrate in a single direction; but after it has been completed, what comes then? The cessation of difference, distinction and disagreement. Differences indeed exist on the path, but how can there be difference of Goal?'
For Adiji with her little gems...I hope you like that, you are not forgotten, Ken Knight Message 23331 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- asridhar19
> of existence, > consciousness and bliss?
Namaste Sridhar, I have been waiting for you to turn up, now we must stir Madhava from his silence. You are correct in what you say but may we lose the word 'ego' for it is a mongrel of an expression. Keep to ahaMkAra. For those who are not familiar with the word it means the 'Aham', feeling of existence, attached to the action. It dominates the days from the moment we wake up and we say 'I like..' or 'I don't like'. It is the result of our claim to be the 'doer' or the action or the feeling. Our question about the individual Self is really in the area of the Aham, which we may translate as 'I am'. There is an excellent paper on this by David Godman who is a Ramana devotee. You can Google it quite easily. When the other posting on this site talk about 'Grand Illumination' then I was reminded of the following. It is now relevant to your posting as well. I downloaded it from the Internet and it is part of, I think, a Dutchman's site. This man had something to do with the Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math and he quotes the answer to a question about transcendental experiences and the feeling of stillness or of the touch and taste of Aham. It is also relevant to the recent discussion on Purnamidam:
The Shankaracharya said: '…………………………… as for the touch of Aham, the taste of Aham – it is a misunderstanding of the terms. Aham and Idam constitute this creation. Aham is Sat, Chit and Ananda. Aham contains everything that reflects Sat, Chit and Ananda through elements, essences, sensations, thinking and feeling. Aham is stil1, although it provides all the energies necessary for the Idam and its multifarious forms of this creation to exist, provides all sensations through the elements and their qualities, and all thinking and feeling.
To know anything, to think about anything is to know and think of Idam. It is done by Aham. When one experiences the beauty of vision or the essence of form and colour or touch and taste one can do so only from Idam. One never sees or touches or tastes the Aham. To be Aham is to be still. One can't touch it. Aham is beyond experience because it is the experiencer. The eyes see beauty, but who does really Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details feel the bliss of beauty? Eyes are instruments and the real witness of beauty and bliss is the Al-tam, the Atman, which provides the power to see. If that force is missing eyes can't see. They see through the light of Atman. Same applies to all organs of senses, organs of action and also the Antahkarana, with manas, buddhi, chitta and ahankara. Consciousness is not movement, Consciousness knows itself, and knows everything through these agencies. When it knows Itself then no Idam will be there. . It is all in stillness. So the taste of Aham or touch of Aham is a mistake in terms. It is existence, consciousness or bliss itself."
That is a clear statement of the advaitin view,
Ken Knight
> Thus what *animates* this body ( In body, I am > including the causal > body or the bundle of vasanas that acquire the > appropriate subtle and > gross bodies as appropriate) and makes it think, act > etc., is not > some individual soul with special and unique > charactersitics and > unique animating powers but *that* or *brahman* that > pervades all and > is present in equal and impartial measure in > everything- moving and > unmoving. > > Typical analogy one comes across is one electricity > principle that > ligths bulbs, heats heaters, rotates fan blades- > each equipment made > to work according to its nature. It is not as if > each of these > equipments have an individualised powerer that makes > them function in > a certain way though, if they had a ego, the ego > would attribute > lighting up, providing air etc. to itself depending > on which > equipment it is in. > > Many thousand namaskarams to all > Sridhar > > Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Message 23334 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste Ken-ji,
Another reference that should draw attention is : RV 6:47:18
" indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [Indra goes about in many forms by his mayas (magical powers).] which is also repeated in Brihadaranyaka upanishad 2:5:19
(Gaudapada cites this also in Karika 3:24).
[Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda refers to repeated births until the Self is realized.]
I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to be limited to the Samhita section only, or should include upanishads also.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23335 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "asridhar19"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> Aham is beyond experience because it is the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
> experiencer. The eyes see beauty, but who does really > feel the bliss of beauty? Eyes are instruments and the > real witness of beauty and bliss is the Al-tam, the > Atman, which provides the power to see. If that force > is missing eyes can't see. They see through the light > of Atman. Same applies to all organs of senses, organs > of action and also the Antahkarana, with manas, > buddhi, chitta and ahankara. Consciousness is not > movement, Consciousness knows itself, and knows > everything through these agencies. When it knows > Itself then no Idam will be there. . It is all in > stillness. So the taste of Aham or touch of Aham is a > mistake in terms. It is existence, consciousness or > bliss itself." > > That is a clear statement of the advaitin view, > > > Ken Knight > > Namaste Kenji My salutations to the felicity with which you have illuminated the thread underlying grand illumination', 'Purnamidam' and 'Maya in Vedas'. Madhavaji seems very busy with his work and service activities. Will see if I can draw him in. My understanding of 'Ahamkara' just went up a few notches. It is a thrilling feeling. On the question of Soul, at a language level I am trying to understand if what is called the soul does really have an equivalent in Advaita as a word or concept. My feeling is that the concept of kArana Sharira or Causal body does away with the posiibility of an individualized soul with its own 'energising agent', so to say, moving from body to body. If this is a digression would seek your valuable guidance offlist. Many pranams to all Advaitins Sridhar Message 23336 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All, This arises from Professor Krishnamurthy's picking up on the different meanings of pataMga and the root 'pat.'
Root Pat: While it has the meaning of 'falling' it also has the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details opposite as 'soaring' so the Sun appears to rise and set, to soar and fall. In our use of language we tend to emphasize a single meaning when there are always two which at first appear to be opposites, for example, 'under' the bridge contains the meaning 'over' the river when we see the larger picture. 'Under' cannot be separated from 'over'. Essentially 'pat' has to do with the power of movement. This hymn (X 177)is dedicated to mAyAbheda which I will translate as the magical power of difference, the movement from one into many without change, as it were. Grounding our interpretation in YAska then we remember the adhyajna, adhidaivata and adhyAtma levels for the purposes of understanding. At the universal level pataMga is the Sun, the universal soul as it were, which 'continually travels'. That is, it is the all-pervading, ever-present power of That One, Tad Ekam , that while breathless, breathes and through whose heat, tapas, the first germ of mind appears.' While still it moves faster than all others'. Isha Up. 4
At the individual level it is pataMga, that which continually travels but 'falls', appearing and disappearing above and below the dividing line of the horizon, birth and death, the magical power of appearance and disappearance. Those that observe this progression to and from the 'station' of the rays of the sun are able to discriminate the non-difference in the difference, they realise the universal in the individual. This is what the ancient seers spoke and the poet PataMga realised, 'his' identity in the universal Bird, PataMga, that appeared to him as the sun passing through the sky and disappearing beneath the horizon.
This power of discrimination, through heart and mind, is cherished through the words of the hymn that are now used in this place of ritual. Those words of our singers themselves appear and disappear, emerging out of the depths of the pranava shabda, Om, the eternal, differentiating in the inner vision of the poet and sung here in this place of ritual. Like the birds they soar and fall, they also are pataMga., falcons in the breaths of the singers.
…………………… This next bit may not be of interest generally although it seeks to find an etymological understanding of 'pataMga'.. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
In the Western, urbanised societies we are bound through our language to names and forms especially through a preference for nouns. Not all societies work in this way. There is an interesting film produced by an anthropologist in Africa. He found that the indigenous people in a village were unable 'see' still pictures and recognise the forms in them. But when they saw a movie of village chickens they were immediately delighted by them and called out the names when they recognised the movement of the fluttering birds. So now, when I look across the road at a tree in the field, I may choose to see a fixed form which I name 'tree' or be aware of it as a continually changing 'being' emerging out of and into the five natural elements. Such a view is more in keeping with the word 'emanation' rather than 'creation' which we normally use. Therefore we may see a cow as 'moving into the field' so that its name incorporates this fact of movement and continual change. So when we look etymologically at Sanskrit words we often find that the words have verbal roots based in 'going' or 'moving'.
Here is a stanza which is all about movement, it is from RV. I.154.6 on the three steps of Vishnu, we find the word 'gámadhyai' which has the verbal root, dhattu is the Sanskrit for this, of 'gam'.
Remembering the double-edge to words this means 'going away' from and 'approaching' When we produce a noun from this verbal root we get 'gata', gone away, departed, dead or 'gati', gait or deportment. taá vaaM vaástuuny ushmasi gámadhyai yátra gaávo bhuúrishRÑgaa ayaásaH | átraáha tád urugaayásya vR'SNaH paramám padám áva bhaati bhuúri ||
'Fain would we go unto your dwelling-places where there are many-horned and nimble oxen, For mightily, there, shineth down upon us the widely-striding Bull's sublimest mansion.'
As Professor Krishnamurthy has stated, pataMga has the verbal root of 'pat'. In later writings this comes to include a 'moral fall' in its meanings but in the Rgveda it is related to the falcon and its speedy falling and soaring, or alighting, dependent upon its context. Hence: RV.I.163. rishi: DIrghatamas deity: eulogy of the horse metre: trishTup 6. aatmaánaM te mánasaaraád ajaanaam avó divaá Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
patáyantam pataMgám | shíro apashyam pathíbhiH sugébhir areNúbhir jéhamaanam patatrí ||
'Thyself from far I recognized in spirit,-a Bird that from below flew through the heaven. I saw thy head still soaring, striving upward by paths unsoiled by dust, pleasant to travel.'
In my own study I like to have a look at Panini's Dhattupatha in which he contemplates these verbal roots and then gives a dhattvartha to try to bring out the meaning. So I looked up 'pata' and he gives, in the ubhayataH voice 'gatau (va)' Not surprisingly we are immediately into the root 'gam' see above. We may like to reflect a little on the 'go' 'gau' (cow) and the 'gopam' (herdsman) in X177.
This game (that is a pun for those still with me) can go on for ever. So I must end with an example of gatam in a Sloka that I think is relevant to our hymm 177 although it is from the Bhagavad Gita: VII.18 udArAH sarva evAita noble indeed are all these
jnAnI tvAtmaiva me matam | but the man of wisdom is thought to be my very Self
AsTitaH sa hi yukAtmA He, indeed, whose mind is steadfast,
mAm evAnuttamAM gatim || Abides in Me, the Supreme Goal (ie. The source and destination of all 'going'.)
Ken Knight Message 23337 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
> > " indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [Indra goes > about in many forms > by his mayas (magical powers).]
Namaste Sunderji, You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using this one after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on it next. Maybe I will put in a general posting that lists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we go much further
> [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda > refers to > repeated births until the Self is realized.]
Can you please be a bit more specific on this one as he is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this an underlying theme do you think? I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearly that those with discrimination realise the cycle of birth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda, maybe, is appearance only. It all depends if we can hear the hymns following Yaska's directions. > > I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to > be limited to > the Samhita section only, or should include > upanishads also.
At least 99% of the time in the samhita portion please as there are only so many hours in a day and at the end of June I will be off to the mountains for a few days. Also, I believe that next month's topic will be founded in the Upanishads and I do not want to intrude on that.
So now it will be on to Indra's magic,
Ken Knight Message 23339 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- asridhar19
> trying to > understand if what is called the soul does really > have an equivalent > in Advaita as a word or concept.
Namaste Sridhar, (Hopefully we can meet up again in the summer.)
Personally I do not use the word 'soul' normally. In the West there is great confusion about 'soul' and 'spirit' and I only use these terms when addressing a gathering that may have non-dual interests, such as neo-Platonic groups, but no knowledge of Sanskrit. Or I use it with my friends who are clearly on the dualistic path in the general forms of Islam and Christianity. For yourself there is to be enquiry into the real meanings of Atman and the mahatattva 'Aham.'
I will pass on one of those simple statements that we may hear but that stick, it did for me anyway. 'Birth and death are events only noticed by others.' This was spoken casually by a man interested in advaita. Chapter after Chapter of the Bhagavad Gita explains what that means.
Incidentally we keep using the word 'individual' to mean separate. And this has been the common usage for a long time but there is a sense that we may have turned the word on its head a long time ago. 'In-' as a prefix often means 'not'. So individual could mean also 'not divisible.' Now there's an idea to play with.
Hope your family are well
Ken Knight Message 23341 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using this > one after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on it > next. Maybe I will put in a general posting that > lists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we go > much further Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
> > > [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda > > refers to > > repeated births until the Self is realized.] > > Can you please be a bit more specific on this one as > he is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this an > underlying theme do you think? > I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearly > that those with discrimination realise the cycle of > birth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda, > maybe, is appearance only.
Namaste Kenji,
Sorry that I 'jumped' too early. It was not intentional, and I did not mean to disturb your sequence of postings.. It was mentioned only because you alluded to Mandalas 1 & 10 as being 'later additions'.
The theme of Mandala 4 is not in fact re-incarnation, but the seeds are evident: ref. 1:7; 2:17; 26:1; 27:1. Of course, your insight may well vary.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23345 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
Namaste Sunderji, Thank you for this. It has given me an interesting study Madathil may have extra luggage as he tries to work out the Lucknow Syndrome but you have certainly got some extra moderating to do here. Fortunately the rishis have no problem with 'Aham'. Again, apologies for length but there is no point in skimping such beautiful texts. Best wishes Ken Knight: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
I think that these references are very relevant to the underlying theme of the mystery of The One becoming many and YAska's direction on understanding the Rgvedic Samhita. While I am quite sure that attachment to action and forms, through the ahamkara, results in a cycle of what could be called re-birth and re-death, I do not see how this would fit into a non-dual teaching unless we correctly understand the purpose of division. That is my bias which may be clouding my understanding of these references. To me they are primarily about division and the unchanging essence through which division appears, in particular, what I tend to think of as the 'triple fire'.
But first may I state what I know you know of but may be of use to others.
The rishis describe three planes of existence each with three presiding deities: dyuloka, celestial sphere: savitR or sUrya (sun), antarikshaloka, intermediary space: indra or vAyu (air) bhUrloka, terrestrial sphere: agni (fire)
Each of these three magically divides into eleven giving thirty-three gods in all although, as we have said many times, there is no doubt that the rishis were aware of one Supreme Power. RV.I.139.11 yé devaaso divy ékaadasha sthá pRthivyaám ádhy ékaadasha sthá | apsukSíto mahinaíkaadasha sthá té devaaso yajñám imáM juSadhvam ||
'O ye Eleven Gods whose home is heaven, O ye Eleven who make earth your dwelling, Ye who with might, Eleven, live in waters, accept this sacrifice, O Gods, with pleasure.'
And as history progresses these are sub-divided yet again.
Your first reference, RV IV.1.7 reads: trír asya taá paramaá santi satyaá spaarhaá devásya jánimaany agnéH | ananté antáH páriviita aágaac chúciH shukró aryó rórucaanaH ||
'Three are those births, the true, the most exalted, eagerly longed-for, of the God, of Agni. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
He came invested in the boundless region, pure, radiant, friendly, mightily resplendent.'
So to me, this is about the 'triple fire' inasmuch as it refers to agni taking form at each of the three spheres. Although agni presides over bhUrloka, terrestrial sphere, as the offspring of Tad Ekam agni is ever-present at all three spheres.
So we read RV. X.45.1 : divás pári prathamáM jajñe agnír asmád dvitiíyam pári jaatávedaaH | tRtiíyam apsú nRmáNaa ájasram índhaana enaM jarate svaadhiíH ||
'First Agni sprang to life from out of Heaven: the second time from us came Jatavedas. Thirdly the Manly-souled was in the waters. The pious lauds and kindles him the Eternal.'
In a stanza that will remind you of the 'I am' sayings in the Bhagavad Gita we read, RV I.70.2: aá daívyaani vrataá cikitvaán aá maánuSasya jánasya jánma ||
'He who is germ of waters, germ of woods, germ of all things that move not and that move,- To him even in the rock and in the house: Immortal One, he cares for all mankind.'
So agni is the essence of all In earlier postings I had begun with mysterious words about agni as the 'Child of the Floods' which only makes sense when we know of the reference to the earth and sky as oceans. RV.III. 112,13:. akró ná babhríH samithé mahiínaaM didRkSéyaH suunáve bhaáRjiikaH | úd usríyaa jánitaa yó jajaánaapaáM gárbho nR'tamo yahvó agníH ||
'As keen supporter where great waters gather, light-shedder whom the brood rejoice to look on; He who begat, and will beget, the dawnlights, most manly, Child of Floods, is youthful Agni.' apaáM gárbhaM darshatám óSadhiinaaM vánaa jajaana subhágaa víruupam | devaásash cin mánasaa sáM hí jagmúH pániSThaM jaatáM tavásaM duvasyan ||
'Him, varied in his form, the lovely Infant of floods Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details and plants the blessed wood hath gendered. Gods even, moved in spirit, came around him, and served him at his birth, the Strong, the Wondrous.'
So agni is embryonic in the waters, their essence as it were, and his birth is in accordance with the controlling and binding power of Rta which he fulfils ( manifests through the fire held sacred in our homes): RV III.5.3
ádhaayy agnír maánuSiiSu vikSv àpaáM gárbho mitrá Rténa saádhan | aá haryató yajatáH saánv asthaad ábhuud u vípro hávyo matiinaám ||
'Amid men's homes hath Agni been established, fulfilling with the Law, Friend, germ of waters. Loved and adored, the height he hath ascended, the Singer, object of our invocations.'
And finally, in a stanza reminiscent of the nAsadIya sUkta, we read RV X 5 7
ásac ca sác ca paramé vyòman dákSasya jánmann áditer upásthe | agnír ha naH prathamajaá Rtásya puúrva aáyuni vRSabhásh ca dhenúH ||
'Not Being, Being in the highest heaven, in Aditi's bosom and in Daksa's birthplace, Is Agni, our first-born of Holy Order, the Milch-cow and the Bull in life's beginning.'
Now with all these words it is too easy to push agni away into some context other than our own but that would be an error for agni is to be found crouched in the cave of the heart when we 'form the mantras there'. RV. I.67.2 kSémo ná saadhúH krátur ná bhadró bhúvat svaadhiír hótaa havyavaáT ||
'He, bearing in his hand all manly might, crouched in the cavern, struck the gods with fear. Men filled with understanding find him there, when they have sung prayers formed within their heart.'
So, after all that explanation Sunderji, I think that your first reference in RV IV.1.7.is to do with these three forms of agni in the process of creation: apAm napAt in the flood of the unmanifest, before creation, as vaiSvAnara in the heavens as the light that shines for all men and as jAtavedas on earth, the knower of Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details beings. This 'triple fire' is visible to us in the observable cosmos as the sun in the sky, lightning in the air and fire on earth. As these are coeval I would not give these the name re-incarnations. trír asya taá paramaá santi satyaá spaarhaá devásya jánimaany agnéH | ananté antáH páriviita aágaac chúciH shukró aryó rórucaanaH ||
'Three are those births, the true, the most exalted, eagerly longed-for, of the God, of Agni. He came invested in the boundless region, pure, radiant, friendly, mightily resplendent.'
Your next reference is quite a challenge and I think makes more sense when paired with its preceding verse, hence RV. IV. 2.16,17
ádhaa yáthaa naH pitáraH páraasaH pratnaáso agna Rtám aashuSaaNaáH shúciíd ayan | diídhitim ukthashaásaH kSaámaa bhindánto aruNiír ápa vran ||
' As in the days of old our ancient Fathers, speeding the work of holy worship, Agni, Sought pure light and devotion, singing praises; they cleft the ground and made red Dawns apparent.' sukármaaNaH surúco devayántó .ayo ná devaá jánimaa dhámantaH | shucánto agníM vavRdhánta índram uurváM gávyam pariSádanto agman ||
'Gods, doing holy acts, devout, resplendent, smelting like ore their human generations. Enkindling Agni and exalting Indra, they came encompassing the stall of cattle.'
That 'smelting like ore' translation reminds me of tvashTR, the divine artisan,'skillful-handed', presiding over birth. I am running out of time so may I return to that one later as there may be more in the stanza than I first saw….....in fact there must be. Your next two references again remind me of the 'I am' statements of the Bhagavad Gita: RV.IV 26 1 ahám mánur abhavaM suúryash caaháM kakSiívaaM+ R'Sir asmi vípraH | aháM kútsam aarjuneyáM ny R`ñje .aháM kavír ushánaa páshyataa maa || Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
'I was aforetime Manu, I was Surya: I am the sage Kaksivan, holy singer. Kutsa the son of Arjuni I master. I am the sapient Usana behold me.'
RV.IV 27.1 gárbhe nú sánn ánv eSaam avedam aháM devaánaaM jánimaani víshvaa | shatám maa púra aáyasiir arakSann ádha shyenó javásaa nír adiiyam ||
' As I lay within the womb, considered all generations of these Gods in order. A hundred iron fortresses confined me but forth I flew with rapid speed a Falcon. '
So Sunderji, I think that we may say that these stanzas provide the basis for the teaching of the Bhagavad Gita IV: 1-9 The Blessed Lord spoke: 'I proclaimed the imperishable yoga to Vivasvat; Vivasvat communicated to Manu, and Manu imparted it to Ikshvaku. Thus received by succession, the royal seers knew this; after a long time here on earth, this yoga has been lost, Arjuna. This ancient yoga is today declared by Me to you, since you are my devotee and my friend. The secret is supreme indeed.' Arjuna spoke: 'Your birth was later, the birth of Vivasvat earlier; how should I understand this, that You declared it in the beginning?' The Blessed lord spoke: 'Many of My births have passed away, and also yours, Arjuna. I know them all; you do not know them Arjuna. Although I am birthless and My nature is imperishable, although I am the lord of all beings, yet, by controlling My own material nature, I come into being by My own power. Whenever a decrease in righteousness exists, Arjune, and there is a rising up of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself. For the protection of the good and the destruction of evil doers, for the sake of establishing righteousness, I am born in every age. He who knows in truth, My divine birth and action, having left the body, he is not reborn; he comes to Me, Arjuna.'
Given our non-dual interest and the vision of the Vedic seers as above we can see how these verses accord wholly with the Rgvedic mantras and the concept of 're-incarnation' has a different meaning at each Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
of the three levels of interpretation. Message 23346 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All, Again, sorry about the length but this is like trying to stop a runaway train. Also apologies because this post gets a bit 'preachy' mid-way through but it appeared that way when I sat down to write so I have left it unabridged. These posts are no longer pre-written but being written 'on the hoof' between the usual daily activities:
RV. VI. 47
Rshi: Garga Deity: Soma. Indra. BRhaspati. Metre: TrishTup, 19 BRhatI, 23 anushTup, 34 gAyatrI, 25 DvipadA, 27 jagatI
We now move from the most infrequently quoted hymn, RV.X.177, to the most frequently quoted on the subject of mAyA: RV. VI.47, in particular stanza 18:
ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám praticákSaNaaya | índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsya hárayaH shataá dásha ||
'In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his only form for us to look on. Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his Bay Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'
This is Griffith's translation and does he mean by translating mAyAbhiH that this is Indra's deceitfulness? If so he is sublating, a good advaitin word that, a snake onto a rope. In stanza 15 we read kRNóti puúrvam áparaM sháciibhiH 'With power, he makes the last precede, the foremost follow.' And this hymn is all about power, mighty force. The power to appear in many forms, ten times a hundred, from the first to the last, the supreme to the least. Indra himself represents such power. Wilson comments on stanza 18 that 'Indra presents Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
himself as Agni, Vishnu or Rudra or any other deity who is the actual object of worship, and is really the deity to be adored: He is identifiable with each. Indra is also here identified with parameSvara, the supreme first cause that appears as many through the emanation.
Therefore this is a simple example of mAyA being used to indicate that power of the One to become many while remaining undiminished by addition or subtraction.
Maybe it is at this point we should introduce the verbal root of mAyA as mA: to measure out. There is a certain lady, a group member who is not to be forgotten, out there with 'her two little gems', who is probably jumping up and down impelling me to point out that mAyA, as wisdom, skill etc is a feminine noun whereas mAya, which means the 'measuring out' is masculine, feminine and neuter, grammatically that is.
This is not merely stated to excite 'that lady' for there is another very important hymn RV.I.159 in which we find the following:
2. utá manye pitúr adrúho máno maatúr máhi svátavas tád dháviimabhiH | surétasaa pitáraa bhuúma cakratur urú prajaáyaa amR'taM váriimabhiH ||
'With invocations, on the gracious Father's mind, and on the Mother's great inherent power I muse. Prolific Parents, they have made the world of life, and for their brood all round wide immortality.'
Mother and Father together hold and manifest the power. You need two pieces of wood in the ritual in order to produce the flame. Fire is waiting in both to leap forth from their union.
This measuring is in accordance with Rta………see first stanza of RV I.159, 'the wise, the Strengtheners of Law.'……………… but Rta is the substratum as the controlling power, it does not do the measuring.
That action is for the powers known as 'the gods'. To measure means that we have to establish a beginning, a middle and an end. This has an element of reality, as much as the piece of rope previously seen as a snake, but the 'ropeness' of the rope is the superior Reality controlling the forms of all ropes.
This hymn is dedicated to the Asvins and centres upon the skill and artistry in their measuring out of the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
'creation/emanation' into its many forms. This artistry is mAyA and is a function of the 'gods' who even themselves take on many forms while remaining one, their essential truth, satyaM. té suunávaH svápasaH sudáMsaso mahií jajñur maatáraa puurvácittaye | sthaatúsh ca satyáM jágatash ca dhármaNi putrásya paathaH padám ádvayaavinaH ||
'These Sons of yours well skilled in work, of wondrous power, brought forth to life the two great Mothers first of all. To keep the truth (satyaM) of all that stands and all that moves, ye guard the station of your Son who knows no guile.' té maayíno mamire suprácetaso jaamií sáyonii mithunaá sámokasaa | návyaM-navyaM tántum aá tanvate diví samudré antáH kaváyaH sudiitáyaH ||
'They with surpassing skill, most wise, have measured out the Twins united in their birth and in their home. They, the refulgent Sages, weave within the sky, yea, in the depths of sea, a web for ever new.'
Note that last word of the first stanza which is translated as 'know no guile', ádvayaavinaH. Do you recognise the a-dva at the beginning? The 'son' stands firm, protected, in the truth, satyaM, of 'not-twoness' while in the presence of those which 'stand' and those which 'move'. Here also is the use of the image of the spider's web, well known to Vedantins. Notice how it is 'ever new'. Everything changes from one millisecond to the next. Why then do we delude ourselves by trying to fix it and control it? That is a fruitless attempt to impose our idea of unity on diversity while ignoring the substratum of Unity that is already there.
That latter is the deceitful art of delusion, not the artistry of mAyA. With this desire to fix and control comes duality and the pleasure/pain cycle. Hence we find it necessary to send out our pleas for help when we find ourselves, still under delusion, under attack. We here send our plea to the asvins for their help. Really though it is all just the controlling power of Rta, beyond the relative distinctions of good and bad, pervading all.
In this hymn we discover where the 'magical power 'of Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details mAyA is stated, for the Twins are called magicians, mAyino. Are magicians deluded by their skills? They display their artistry for the amusement of themselves and their audience but they are never fooled. Some in the audience (why aren't they called the vidience) will want to know how the trick is done and some will just enjoy it and some will marvel at the artistry of the magicians.
As the Incredible String Band sang back in the 1970's: 'Maya, Maya. All this world's but a play. Be thou the joyful player.' [some may like to look up their lyrics on the Net and wonder at the insights that were flying (pataMga) around at that time.]
There is a glorious hymn to Varuna in which the singer begins by proclaiming: 'Sing forth a hymn sublime and solemn'….'Set intellect in hearts, fire in waters, sUrya in heaven and soma on the mountain.' Then the Rishi declares: imaám uu Sv aaaàsurásya shrutásya mahiím maayaáM váruNasya prá vocam | maáneneva tasthivaáM+ antárikSe ví yó mamé pRthiviíM suúryeNa ||
'I will declare this mighty deed of magic, of glorious Varuna the Lord Immortal, Who standing in the firmament hath meted the earth out with the Sun as with a measure.'
These hymns are great, are they not, or am I deluding myself?' Message 23347 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Kenji comments > For Adiji with her little gems...I hope you like that, > you are not forgotten,
Yes! right now Life is 'ananda-mayee'- full of Ananda (bliss) with an over-active Toddler and an ever-inquiring four year old who wants to know the why and how of everything in the Universe! from the yahoo web world to the real world of Barney, wiggles, tele-tubbies, winnie the pooh, etc.... life is a different kind of excitement and thrills with these two kids keeping me on my toes - time and space have taken on a new meaning! Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
My four year old is now able to read full sentences and is very much interested in the origin of words !
Speaking of origin of words,
PatangA - another meaning for PatHang is "KITE"
PATH - TO FALL
GA - TO MOVE FORWARD OR RISE (gati represents movement) have you ever seen Kite -flying , a popular sport during the spring season in india? specially during 'vasant panchami'? (bengalees call it basant panchami substituting 'b' for 'v' - that was an ingenious interpretation -kenji - calling vedanta 'bedanta' - the end of differences) ! well, personally i like kenji's interpretation of comparing Pathanga to a bird - the soaring high and falling down!(like a kite -pathang)
Yes, the IMAGERY of a BraHman as a BIRD is fascinating
Thou art the dark-blue bird and the green parrot with red eyes, Thou hast the lightning as thy child. Thou art the seasons and the seas. [Svetasvatara 4.2.4] and kenji, Have you seen the Icon of Sree Meenakshi devi, the powerful goddess? on her shoulder is perched a Green parrot! and the green parrot reprsents the 'vedas' , it is said! are we to repeat the vedic dictums parrot like or understand the 'TATPARYA' behind these vedic suktas?
Ekam sad VIPRAH bahudah vadanti? Message 23348 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- adi_shakthi16
> 4.2.4] > > Have you seen the Icon of Sree Meenakshi > devi, the > powerful goddess? > > on her shoulder is perched a Green parrot! and the > green parrot > represents the 'vedas' , it is said!
Namaste Adi-ji, I googled to find images but none were clear enough....but....is this spooky or not??? We do not have wild parrots in this country but occasionally one ( presumably two ) escape from aviaries and survive our winters until a cold one kills them. With five warm winters here in UK we have a few colonies of green parrakeets that have developed and a couple live about a mile from our home around a golf course. Occasionally they screech overhead.
About three weeks ago two settled in a large beech tree in our garden and gradually some of their friends joined them. We sleep in a glass sided shed at the end of the garden and as I walk to the house, early in the morning, I am greeted by a screeching from the flashes of green settled amongst the copper leaves of a beech tree. They go off with their friends during the day and return for the evening screech. Life is full of coincidences. >======Message 23349 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> Given our non-dual interest and the vision of the > Vedic seers as above we can see how these verses > accord wholly with the Rgvedic mantras and the concept > of `re-incarnation' has a different meaning at each > of the three levels of interpretation.
Namaste Kenji,
That was a brilliant commentary, and I consider myself, and this list, fortunate in being able to share in the 'nuggets of gold ' that you continue to mine. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
The antinomy of birth and birthlessness will continue to be a mystery till the Grace chooses us to unveil it!
Hope your trip to the mountains will give you fresh energy to go deepr in the 'mine'!
Regards,
Sunder Message 23369 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
RV. VI.47.18 ruupáM-ruupam prátiruupo babhuuva tád asya ruupám praticákSaNaaya |
índro maayaábhiH pururuúpa iiyate yuktaá hy àsya hárayaH shataá dásha |
'In every figure he hath been the mode: this is his only form for us to look on. Indra moves multiform by his illusions; for his Bay Steeds are yoked, ten times a hundred.'
Namaste All, In recent posts I have referred to the above stanza which shows indra as having the power to appear as many different forms, this power being his mAyA. Also in discussing I.159 I brought in the concept of the 'magician' with the asvins being 'mAyino'. This is a useful concept when discussing mAyA in later advaitin writings as you will know.
However last evening's reading brought the following which I thought that I should pass on. Professor R.L. Kashyap has, I think, one of the best sites on the Vedas although some may be put off by the background of Sri Aurobindu writings which have their individualistic interpretations: www.veda.com/org/index
He has added several downloads since I last visited and may I recommend that you visit the site. In his introductory essay, page 933, he writes the following in relation to RV VI. 47 which refutes any link Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details between this power of mAyA and magic. He states: 'The mAyA powers in fact have nothing to do with magic or illusion.. They are his (Indra's) creative conscious powers through which he has set in motion the countless life powers which we behold. These life forces are imaged as his thousand horses, a failry common image for life-forces. The Sanskrit word for the four-footed animals, ashva, is derived from the word 'ash' which denotes strength. Indra's steeds are not the animals needed for his transportation, but are his life powers, and ratha, the chariot, indicates movement.'
Again, I recommend his site as he is clearly more grounded in this tradition than I am. We will hear more about the 'chariot' when we look at the Rbhus.
Ken Knight Message 23371 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste
There is another meaning for Indra. Instead of thinking of 'indra' as the anthropomorphic king of the divines with mightiest powers and the like, the esoteric meaning of 'indra' has to be taken into account when we want to go to into the depth of the vedic statements.
'idam drAvayati iti indraH' -- the one who pulverises this visible everything. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
This means that 'indra' stands for the Ultimate Supreme Reality. I have many times heard my father say this in his expositions. Though I do not propose that this is the meaning of 'indra' every time the word occurs, I have a feeling that whenever we are at a dead end in interpreting vedic statements, we have to take this into consideration.
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda profvk Message 23372 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Our most beloved kenji writes...
"They are his (Indra's) creative conscious powers through which he has set in motion the countless life powers which we behold. These life forces are imaged as his thousand horses, a failry common image for life-forces. The Sanskrit word for the four-footed animals, ashva, is derived from the word `ash' which denotes strength. Indra's steeds are not the animals needed for his transportation, but are his life powers, and ratha, the chariot, indicates movement."
MAY I PLEASE share with you all this which i read while cruising on the web?
Ashwin in Sanskrit is one who possesses a horse, Ashwa. The Ashwins, or Ashwina in the dual case, are the twin horseman invoked in many hymns in the Rig Veda. About fifty hymns belong exclusively to the Ashwins who are mentioned commonly in many others as well. After the main Vedic deities - Indra, Agni, Surya, and Soma - the Ashwins are the most commonly invoked of all the Gods.
There is a famous Vedic story about the Ashwins, hinted at in the Rig Veda but common in the Brahmanas, that reveals their character and the nature of Ashvini Nakshatra. The Ashwins possessed all secret knowledge but one, the knowledge of immortality, literally the doctrine of honey (Madhu Vidya), which is sometimes identified with the knowledge of Soma. Naturally the Ashvins were willing to do anything to get it. This knowledge was possessed by the Vedic Rishi Dadhyak, son of the great Rishi Atharva, from whom the Atharva Veda was named. However Dadhyak was under a curse from the great God Indra, the king of the Gods, that he could not teach this knowledge or Indra would cut his head off. Dadhyak told the Ashvins that he could not teach this knowledge for fear of Indra. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
The Ashwins, who possessed all magic powers, then devised a trick. They told Dadhyak that they would give him the head of a horse. Through the horse's head he could teach them the Madhu Vidya. Then when Indra came and cut off his head, now that of a horse, they would give him back his original human head. This is what happened and the Ashwins received their knowledge from Dadhyak.
((SNIP))
The Ashvins are the miracle workers among the Vedic Gods. They heal the sick, raise the dead, save the oppressed, rescue the stranded, and so on. They are youths with special powers of all types, the miraculous twins. Their exploits are found in many places in the Rig Veda but especially in several hymns of Kakshivan (I.116-120) and one of Kutsa (I.112)
In one of their exploits the Ashvins rescue Bhujyu who was thrown overboard in the ocean. They raise him from the waters and carry him away on an aerial ship.
For three nights and three days with your fast winged creatures, Ashvins you carried Bhujyu to the further shore of the wet ocean with three vehicles, with a hundred feet, and six horses (trbhi rathiah satapadbhih salasvaih Rig Veda I.116.4).
As horsemen the character of the Ashvins depends also upon the Vedic symbolism of the horse, Ashva. Ashva is a Vedic word for horse and indicates speed. Ashva, as Sri Aurobindo notes, is a symbol for force. It is often identified with Prana, sometimes with the force of Tapas or spiritual practice, or with the motor organs (karmendriyas). The Ashvins are also deities of Prana. Horse as an animal is symbolic for the Sun (Atharva Veda XIX.53.1), which is pulled in a chariot by seven horses. Both the Sun and Prana represent and measure time (Kala). Time outwardly is marked by the Sun and inwardly by the movement of Prana or the breath as noted in the Matriyani Upanishad VI.1 (this important Upanishad also mentions navamshas VI.14, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu VII.5, and the shifting of the pole star I.7). In the Rig Veda the sacrificial horse is fashioned out of the Sun (RV I.163.2). It has thirty four joints (RV. I.162.18), which can be identified with the seven planets and twenty seven Nakshatras.
The horse sacrifice or Ashvamedha is one of the most important Vedic rituals, particularly for the Kshatriya or the warrior class. The horse, symbol for the Sun, is let free to roam for a year. The king's army follows the horse and claims whatever lands the horse enters as under the domain of the king. After this time the horse is sacrificed in the honor of the king. Great kings or emperors would let their horse roam free from the eastern to the western sea (the Bay of Bengal to the Arabian Sea). Ashvini Nakshatra has the image of a horse's head and therefore reflects the horse sacrifice or Ashvamedha that marks the year. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
This horse is also the head of the enlightened seer, represented by the rishi Dadhyak. The head is the seat of the seven Pranas - the two eyes, two ears, two nostrils and mouth - which are also called the seven suns because they are the basis of our sensory perception. The sacrifice of the horse is also the transcending of body consciousness, the sacrifice of Prana, our life-energy, to the Divine.
Yet Vedic rituals were not only external but internal, in which the horse is Prana. The year is the movement of Prana up and down the spine, with the upward movement marked by the northern course of the sun (Devayana or Uttarayana) and the downward movement by the southern course of the Sun (Pitrayana or Dakshinayana). The liberated horse is the liberated Prana. The sacrificed horse is the sacrificed Prana, which liberates it from the outer world into the inner world of pure consciousness.
In the Rig Veda the Ashvins are the first deities on the Path of Light (Devayana), as the Rishi Agastya notes, and the Rishi Vasishta also has the same verse in his hymns.
We have crossed the limit of darkness and placed our adoration to the Ashvins. May they come by the paths of the Devayana. RV I.184.6 and RV VII.73.1 to read the complete text ... http://www.vedanet.com/Ashvini.htm - 18k - Cached thank you kenji ! looking forward to more of 'maya' and her Magick in the rig vedas ... Message 23373 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> > www.veda.com/org/index
Namaste,
The accurate URL is: http://www.vedah.com/org/index.asp Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
This line also occurs in Katha upan. 2:2:9-10 , indicating the immanence-transcendence of the spirit .
Also see: 2:9:12 ekaM bIjaM bahudhA yaH karoti [the one, who makes his one form manifold].
Regards,
Sunder Message 23374 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste Ken-ji,
It would be interesting know Prof. Kashyap's commentary on Rig Veda 3:53:8. http://www.srivaishnava.org/scripts/veda/rv/rvtop.htm (Wilson/Sayana)
3.053.08 Maghavan becomes repeatedly (manifest) in various forms, practising delusions with respect to his own peculiar person; and invoked by his appropriate prayers, he comes in a moment from heaven to the three (daily rites), and, although observant of seasons, is the drinker (of the Soma) irrespective of season. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv03053.htm (Griffith) Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
8 Maghavan weareth every shape at pleasure, effecting magic changes in his body, Holy One, drinker out of season, coming thrice, in a moment, through fit prayers, from heaven.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23377 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Sunderji responds
This line also occurs in Katha upan. 2:2:9-10 , indicating the > immanence-transcendence of the spirit . > > Also see: 2:9:12 ekaM bIjaM bahudhA yaH karoti [the one, who makes > his one form manifold].
Here is one more along the same lines ...
'One fire burns in many ways: one sun illumines the universe; one divine dispels all darkness. He alone has revealed himself in all these forms.' eka evAgnir bahudhA samiddha ekaH sUryo visvam anu prabhUtaH | ekaivoShAH sarvam idaM vibhAty ekaM vaidam vi babhUva sarvam || Rhg Veda VIII. 58.
Hari Aum! Message 23378 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
Namaste Sunder-ji Sorry about mis-typing. I will e-mail Prof. Kashyap and ask him. He answered an e-mail a year ago but a later one did not a reply so we have a 50/50 chance....nb to statiticians.....I know that that is not true but it was a way of ending the sentence.
Ken Knight Message 23379 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- adi_shakthi16
>Yet Vedic rituals were not only external but >internal, in which the >horse is Prana.
Namaste Adi-ji, And how are we to understand that? With mind and heart harnessed to the chariot maybe if we are to be guided by the Rbhus. We need to find the 'ropeness of the rope' to establish a pure ritual ground and the artistry of the rishis to 'chisel the mantras' there.
Intellect alone strands us in the 'arena' of interpretation without understanding; understanding comes through direct experience only (in due time. See Professsor VK's quote below.) .
In that 'arena' our competing horses may excite us with their artistry but after the victor has been garlanded another race begins.
Depending on the context of the story the horse has different levels of meanings. It is the ultimate magnificent power 9prAna) but once that power has unlawfully been snatched by the 'stickiness' of the ahaMkAra then it becomes personal, that is a mask imposed (persona). Remember YAska?
As has been said previously in this topic, we are traditionally advised to study the Vedas through the stories and the histories, puranas and itihasas, for as Professor Krishnamurty posted on Shata-shloki 8, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details referring to Shrimad Bhagavatam XI 3 44:
'The Vedas always tell you only indirectly, they hide their real intent. It is like getting things done by children. The Vedas prescribe actions/rituals for you so that in due time you may be relieved of all actions.'
> There is a famous Vedic story about the Ashwins, > hinted at in the > Rig Veda but common in the Brahmanas, that reveals > their character > and the nature of Ashvini Nakshatra.
A bit more on 'direct experience'. Some years ago I was given a battered photostat of part of the Jyotish Vedanga, it had the transliterated Sanskrit and an English translation. One part resonated with me as it detailed the practice of giving the child a Nakshatra name. I have quoted it many times since and the gist of it is: 'When you give the nakshatra name remember that when the 'true Sun' shines they are na-kshatra (no-power).'
The gods, shining in the celestial sky of that 'inner space', lose the power that has been attributed to them, (through division, bilma, for the purposes of explanation ), when the true Sun shines through direct experience. That is not to say that the sweetness of the asvin is not to be sought but the true source acknowledged: Kena Up. 5 'That which is not uttered by speech that by which speech is revealed, know that alone to be Brahman, and not what people worship as an object (idam) (tadeva brahma tvaM viddhi nedaM yadidamupAsate)
Many thanks for the link which is yet another valuable contribution,
Thank you again
Ken Knight Message 23381 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
>This means that 'indra' stands for the Ultimate >Supreme Reality. I >have many times heard my father say this in his >expositions. Though >I do not propose that this is the meaning of 'indra' >every time the >word occurs, I have a feeling that whenever we are >at a dead end in >interpreting vedic statements, we have to take this >into >consideration.
Namaste Professor-ji, This is interesting because when Indra releases the cows, as you know, he cracks open the 'rock' with his lightning shaft: VI.43.3 yásya gaá antár áshmano máde dRLhaá avaásRjaH |
'In whose wild joy thou settest free the kine held fast within the rock,'
We can now understand that to mean that when the immediate impact of intuited knowledge strikes the bonds of ignorance the words of truth are released and knowledge dawns. Now that same stanza is sometimes interpreted as showing the essential function of Indra to cause the sat to appear out of the asat…..the rock being a symbol of asat.
All of which takes us yet again to the appearance of difference; we cannot have difference as a process of explanation unless its aim is a solution that transcends difference. This examples the problem of paradox. Reminiscent of Shiva's roles as creator and destroyer, we can find Indra taking many forms to play these various roles.
Here are some notes on Indra that may be of interest to people. Indra personifies Rta as the ordering and harmonising intelligence in the inner and outer spaces. He unfolds the spiritual world into the physical by commanding the inner space. He brings light out of darkness, out of the hidden depths: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
RV.III.39.6-7 gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNe dákSiNaavaan |
'That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he held in his right hand, the rich rewarder.' jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaád abhiíke |
'He took the light, discerning it from darkness: may we be far removed from all misfortune.'
He direct those rays of the sun that we heard about in X.177 sá ít támo .avayunáM tatanvát suúryeNa vayúnavac cakaara |
'He hath made pathways, with the Sun to aid him, throughout the darkness that extended pathless.'
Not only is he 'aided by sUrya' he is indeed identified with sUrya in RV.X.89.2: sá suúryaH páry uruú váraaMsy éndro vavRtyaad ráthyeva cakraá | átiSThantam apasyàM ná sárgaM kRSNaá támaaMsi tvíSyaa jaghaana ||
'Surya is he: throughout the wide expanses shall Indra turn him, swift as car-wheels, hither, Like a stream resting not but ever active he hath destroyed, with light, the blackhued darkness.'
It is through his might…...... this may be related back to the releasing of the cows but I am trying not to interpret too wildly…. ....He provides space for the gods: mahó mahaáni panayanty asyéndrasya kárma súkRtaa puruúNi | vRjánena vRjinaán sám pipeSa maayaábhir dásyuuM+r abhíbhuutyojaaH ||
'They laud the mighty acts of him the Mighty, the many glorious deeds performed by Indra. He in his strength, with all-surpassing prowess, through wondrous arts crushed the malignant Dasyus.' yudhéndro mahnaá várivash cakaara devébhyaH sátpatish carSaNipraáH | Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
'Lord of the brave, Indra who rules the people gave freedom to the Gods by might and battle.'
We then have this might and power reminiscent of the teaching given by Professor Krishnamurthy's illustrious father: sháMsaa mahaám índraM yásmin víshvaa aá kRSTáyaH somapaáH kaámam avian | yáM sukrátuM dhiSáNe vibhvataSTáM ghanáM vRtraáNaaM janáyanta devaáH ||
'Great Indra will I laud, in whom all people who drink the Soma have attained their longing; Whom, passing wise, Gods, Heaven and Earth, engendered, formed by a Master's hand, to crush the Vrtras.'
In all this outward activity we may understand that he became somewhat proud of his powers and so we have to turn once more to the Kena Upanishad when the Yaksha disappears when approached by Indra full of bluster: Swami GambhirAnanda gives in his commentary on Kena Up.III.11:
'Brahman (Yaksha) did not so much as grant him an interview so that Indra's pride may be totally eradicated.' I read in this that the intellect, proud of its achievement in understanding something will, doubtless, in due course, be faced by that which it cannot understand, in order that its pride be removed.
Then at the beginning of the next chapter, Kena Up IV.1, after umA had taken the place of the disappeared Yaksha, she says:
' "It was Brahman. In Brahman's victory, indeed, you became elated thus." From that (utterance) alone, to be sure, did Indra learn it was Brahman.'
That is so important 'tataH ha eva'!!!!! That is about as strongly emphasised as it can be. Indra heard the words of umA. But if he was all bluster he would not have heard a word. The reason for this is in Kena Up. III. 12. 'tasmin eva AkASe…in that very space.'
So Indra stands….Sanskrit verbal root 'sta'……in that very place where the Yaksha disappeared. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
In my interpretation of all this…...... so it is open to many challenges…...... this Upanishadic teaching relates us back to the Rgveda and the quality of Indra as that one who re-unites. He is described as the 'meditating god' , prá sú gmántaa dhiyasaanásya sakSáNi (see full stanza below.
In order to perceive the ropeness of the rope we must not run away from the snake. This requires austerity, tapas, or meditation, which is again reminiscent of the nasadIya sUkta. In X.167.1 we read: tvám tápaH paritápya ajayaH svàr || 'thou, having glowed with Fervour, worthiest heavenly light'
In an earlier hymn, RV.II. 12.1 we read that Indra is the 'first to possess mind', prathamo manasvAn: In case it has been forgotten, the nasadIya sUkta, RV.X 129.3 reads: táma aasiit támasaa guuLhám ágre .apraketáM saliláM sárvam aa idám | tuchyénaabhv ápihitaM yád aásiit tápasas tán mahinaájaayataíkam || 'Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that first germ of mind.'
Several times recently I have suggested that it is the function of the intellect to divide for the purpose of explanation and tried to relate this to Yaska's simple statement on 'bilma.' I would also point to the full stanza of that above quote and would suggest that Griffith's translation misses the mark a bit: yó jaatá evá prathamó mánasvaan devó devaán krátunaa paryábhuuSat | yásya shúSmaad ródasii ábhyasetaaM nRmNásya mahnaá sá janaasa índraH ||
'He who, just born, chief God of lofty spirit by power and might became the Gods' protector, Before whose breath through greatness of his valour the two worlds trembled, He, O men, is Indra.'
It is through this ability to be still and silent, to stay in 'that place',like Arjuna when he prostrates before Lord Krishna, that Indra is able to enter the 'third heaven' to discover amRta: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details ayám akRNod uSásaH supátniir ayáM suúrye adadhaaj jyótir antáH | ayáM tridhaátu diví rocanéSu tritéSu vindad amR'taM níguuLham ||
'The Dawns he wedded to a glorious Consort, and set within the Sun the light that lights him. He found in heaven, in the third lucid regions, the threefold Amrta in its close concealment.'
So, although we began our meeting with Indra when considering his mAyA power to appear in many forms we can see in the above picture of him in the Rgveda that he is central to both the outward and the inward flow.
Hope the above is not too disjointed b ut it has been written 'on the hoof' as it were.
Ken Knight Message 23384 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "asridhar19"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
> Hope the above is not too disjointed b ut it has been > written 'on the hoof' as it were. > > Ken KNight Namaste Kenji and all The presentation of a multifaceted and multifunctional Indra is so enlightening. From the Puranas,superficially, I had by and large developed a prejudiced opinion that he is normally the one that behaves in a manner not befitting his position. Typical episodes one recalls are his duplicity with ahalya, attack on Sitaji, immature challenging of Krishna, incurring sages wrath and suffering a curse etc. I had also conjured him up as the one at the helm who wants to hang on to his seat of power at any cost with a great amount of insecurity and works hard at bringing obstructions in yaga's and sadhanas.
Again, I'd request you to look at these impressions as those of one who is not very well educated and has not applied adequate thought to what Indra really represents and has been content with gathering impressions from episodes. I further learnt that he is the presiding deity of mind and my mind being what it is, my perception ( through the mind?) of Indra got even more badly coloured.I used to feel, rather than seek his co- operation in my efforts I should probably directly address the lord in whose light he automatically behaves.
However, your detailed exposition has given many new concepts to think about, ponder and muse on the subject of Indra. Somewhere along the line one hopes that one's perspective gets better.
Many thousand namaskarams to all Sridhar Message 23385 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- asridhar19
> The presentation of a multifaceted and > multifunctional Indra is so > enlightening. From the Puranas,superficially, I had > by and large > developed a prejudiced opinion that he is normally > the one that > behaves in a manner not befitting his position.
Namaste Sridhar, I am not well qualified to pick this one up properly Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details for you as when I read the Puranas I may enjoy them , think 'That's nice,' and then forget all about what I have read. Whereas when I read Sruti I linger over the words and delight in them. Hence when I look to contribute the ideas about Indra I go to the Rgveda. There we can see, as in my last posting, the context in which he was first envisaged and then the Kena Upanishad builds upon that tradition which ranges from the the closest of stations with the Supreme Source Itself to the boastful yet humbled power.
If I may advise in the light of your past postings on the ahaMkAra: please focus on the story of Indra killing vRtra. Vrtra, as you know is the asura in the form of the black serpent (dark monsoon cloud) that holds up the propitious rainfall...'The darkness withheld the flow of rain. In vRtra's belly the rain-cloud lay concealed. But Indra released the flowing of the water, thus gathered up by vRtra, into the regions below.' RV.I.54.10
Let us place this in the context of our own psyche. We know well the experience when our mind and heart is filled with light, the light displaying the hidden presence of consciousness. We also know that more frequent condition when it appears, through delusion, to be without light and space. Attachment to worries about family, finance, status in society etc. darken and cloud the ever-shining Sun, we have a crowd of enemies whom we wish to quieten. So we speak of 'My problem'. Suddenly we may glimpse a chance of a solution and act accordingly and lay the claim, 'I did that well!' as the energy flows and excitement displays the relief. That error is what it means when we are told by Sruti about eating without offering to the gods. If we do this then the same situation will occur again until we learn to offer up or dedicate action. Such a scene is a reflection of Indra's problem, he can get somewhat puffed up when things are 'going well'. He needs to think, 'How did the cloud get there?' 'It was drawn up from the waters.' 'By what?' 'The heat of the Sun.' That, and the release of the waters, is the harmonious flow of Rta, it is the manifesting will of Absolute or Tad Ekam. There is no 'My problem.' It is all the dharmic unfolding in accordance with the harmony of Rtam and Satyam. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
It is only our claim to a dualistic vision of 'me and others' that prevents us realising this.
To conclude, may we return to the Kena Upanishad where we find, IV.3, that when Indra has understood that the 'victory was Brahman's' : 'Therefore did Indra excel the other deities. For he touched it most proximately, inasmuch as he knew it first as Brahman.'
Have a good weekend
ken Knight Message 23386 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste All, With the end of June approaching I thought that I should post some useful infromation so that one day, if you had the impulse to look further into this topic, you have the necessary references.
Enjoy your future studies.
ken Knight
1) From 'The Doctrine of Maya in the Philosophy of Vedanta' P D Shastri :
There are seventy-five hymns in R.V. in which the word mAyA appears in its simple or compound forms. This list is collated under the deity to whom it is addressed.
Thirty-five to Indra (I: 11,32,33,51,56,80,144,160; II: 11,17; III, 334,53; IV: 16,30; V: 30,31; VI: 18,20,22,44,45,47; VII 28,98,104; VIII: 3,14,76; X:73,99,111,138,147) Eight to Agni ( I:. 144 ; III: 20, 27; V. 2; VII.: 1; VIII: 23; X:5, 53) ; Four to the ASvins (I: 117; V. 78; VI. 63; X: 24) Four to the Maruts (I: 39, 64; V: 58; VI 48); Three to ViSvedevAH (III: 56; V. 44, 48); Two to Varuna (V. 85; VIII: 41), Two to Soma (IX. 73, 83), Two to Mitravarunau (I:151; V. 63), DyAva-pRthivyau (I: 100, 159); One each to Ushas (III. 61), SarasvatI (VI:61 ), the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Adityas (II:27), PUshan (VI:58), Atri (V: 40), JnAnam (X: 71), the Rbhus (III: 60), IndrAvarunau (VII: 82), SomArkau (X.:85), MAyAbheda (X:177), IndrAvishnU (VII:99) ; PrajApati-VaiSvAmitra (III: 38), and SUrya-vaiSvAnarau ( X:88).
2) MAyA is a feminine noun. In case you are not familiar with such terms, we need to label words to establish the part they play in a sentence. Nominative (Subject) Accusative (Object) Instrumental (by or with) Dative (to or for) Ablative (from) Genitive (of the) Locative (in) Vocative (O) as in O Lord Krishna
We also need to know the related noun mAyin, skilled in art or enchantment, later meaning magician.
3) The following list of the usage of mAyA in the RigVeda is also from 'The Doctrine of Maya in the Philosophy of Vedanta' P D Shastri :
(1) mAyAH (nominative and accusative plural twenty-four times) I..32.4 I.l17.3 II.:11.10, 27.26; III: 20.3 , 53.8 ; V:2.9 , 31.7 , 40.8 ; VI:.18.9 , 20.4 , .22.9 ,44.22 45.9, 58.l ; VII.:1.lO,98.5, 99.4 ; VIII:.41.8 ; X.:53.9, 73.5, 99.2, 111.6. (2) rnAyayA (instrumental singular nineteen times) I:80.7 , 144.1, 160.3 ; II:.17.5; III:.27.7 IV:30.l2 , 30.21 ; V.63.3, 63.7 ; VI: 22.6, 23.15 ; VII: 4l.3 ,104.24 ; IX:.73.5 ,73.9 , 83.3 ; X.:71.5 , 85.l8 , 177.l (3) mAyinaH (accusative plural and genitive singular of mAyin fifteen times) I:.39.2 , 51.5 , 54.4 , 64.7 ,159.4 ; II:11.10 ; III.38.7, 38.9, 56.1 ; V.44.11 ; VI:.61.3 ; VII: 82.3 ; VIII:.3.19,.23.14 X.l38.3 (4) mAyAbhiH (instrumental plural thirteen times) I:11.7, 33.10 , 51.5 , 51.9 ; III.: 34.6, 60.1 ; V:30.6, 44.2, .78.6 ; VI:.47.l8, 63.5 ; VII: l4.14 X.147.2 (5) mAyinam (accusative singular of mAyin ten times) I.:11.7, 53.7, 56.3 , 80.7 II.:11.5 ; V:30.6 , 58.2 VI.48.14 ; VIII:76.1 ; X.147.2. (6) mAyA (three times) III: 61.7 ; V:.63.4 ; X.54.2 Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
(7) mAyAm (accusative singular three times) V:85.5, 85.6 ; X:.88.6 (8) mAyI (nominative singular of mAyin three times) VII: 28.4 ; X.99.10 ; X: 147.5 (9) mAyinam (three times) I:32.4 ; III.: 20.3 , 34.3 (10) mAyinI (two times) V: 48.1 ; X:.5.3 (11) mAyyinA (instrumental singular of mAyin) VI:63.5 (12) mAyini V: 48.3 (13) mAyAvinA X:24.4 (14) mAyAvAn IV:16.9 (15) mAyAvinam II:11.9 (16) mAyAvinaH X: 83.3 Message 23387 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
Namaste all
Yes, Ken-ji, your emphasis on the above quote from Kena Upanishad is well-placed. The Kanchi Mahaswamigal (The Paramacharya) also, very often refers to this greatness of Indra. Recall, for example, his explanation of Shloka 65 in Soundaryalahari, at
http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/DPDS71-75.html
Thanks, Ken-ji, for a wonderful analysis of Indra in the Rg Veda. You have given us all tons and tons of homework to do. It will take quite a long time for us to catch up with you, if at all!
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. Profvk Message 23388 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Ken-knightji!
Wow! what a gift! the gift of vedic knowledge is the best gift of all ! A million thanks for for all these cool showers of praise on the Sovereign ruler Indra on a hot summer day in June ! read
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF INDRA: in this poem
Thou, God of Thunder, satst on Meru thron'd,
Cloud-riding, mountain-piercing, thousand-ey'd,
With young PULOMAJA, thy blooming bride,
Whilst air and skies thy boundless empire own'd,
Hail, DYUPETIR, dismay to Bala's pride!
Or speaks PURANDER best thy martial fame,
Or SACRA, mystick name?
With various praise in odes and hallow'd story
Sweet bards shall hymn thy glory.
Thou, VA'SAVA, from this unmeasur'd height
Shedst pearl, shedst odours o'er the sons of light!
The Vedas say:
Vaiswanara(Indra), by his magnitude, is all men...[Thus, Vedic theology suggests resolving all the divinities in Vedic literature into three: Fire,
Air, the Sun and then, all these into one, the Sun Nirukta.] Indra
(is)...the ancient Lord...who is the type of all...Thou art the type of Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details the extended earth; thou art the lord of the vast God-frequented
(Swarga). Verily, with thy bulk thou fillest all the firmament: of a truth, there is none other such as thou! (55)
The Rig Veda also affirms to its readers, that
The circumstationed [inhabitants of the three worlds] associated with
{Indra], the mighty Aditya (Sun), the indestructible Agni (Fire), the moving Vayu (Wind), that light that shines in the sky. (56)
All such epithets applying to Indra suggest an all inclusive supremacy and sovereignty above all the other gods. for he, the performer of good works hast suddenly become augmented vigour, for the sake of drinking the libation [Soma juice], and [maintaining] seniority (among the gods). (58)
And, again, as the hymnist writes:
for they [the soma juices] enter unto thee: may they be propitious for thy [attainment of] superior intelligence. (59)
So that...
Indra may...enjoy these...viands, in which all manly properties abide. (60)
Indra's 'suddenly augmented vigour' rightfully juxtaposes him as Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details originator of the first inhabitants of the world, succeeding his reconstitution. For, the un-named speaker of the Rig Veda addresses them saying,
Mortals, you owe your [daily] birth (to such an Indra), who, with rays of the morning (as the Sun) gives sense to the senseless, and to the formless, form. (61) again,
Indra, to render all things visible elevated the Sun in(to) the sky, and charged the cloud with [abundant] waters...Indra slays *Ahi* and becomes
Universal Sovereignty, the Monarch of all men, comprehending all things: then, Indra, the wielder of the thunder-bolt, became sovereign of all that is moveable or immovable, of hornless and horned cattle; and as he abides the monarch of men, he comprehended all things
(within him).. (63)
(snip)
Indra as overseer is invested with all the highest attributes and aspects of all the deities and is superior over all. In the most ancient Vedic Period, Indra is shown to have had the titles of the Sun, Fire, Wind and Stars, hence, his supreme seniority as the Vedic historian has written:(70)
Whatever excellent praises are given to all the other divinities, they are [also the due] of Indra... (71)
Wherefore, Indra is that original one, Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
...who alone rules over [all] men...and over the five classes of the dwellers on earth. (72)
And, is also that mighty Solar King who is,
...to be reverenced by all mankind. (73)
Indra is also called "Vasu", a synonym for his name which explains his position as the original donor or cause of all habitation.(74) ...rendered all things visible, and elevated the Sun into the Sky. (75)
And, even as the Sun itself, he "...animated the mountain [or world] with his rays [or, political wisdom]. (76) more on the glory of indra
Straight from sev'n winds immortal Genii flew,
Green Varuna, whom foamy waves obey,
Bright, Vahni flaming like the lamp of day,
Kuvera sought by all, enjoyed by few,
Marut, who bids the winged breezes play,
Stern Yama, ruthless judge, and Isa cold
With Nairrit mildly bold:
They with the ruddy flash, that points his thunder,
Rend his vain bands asunder.
Th' exulting God resumes his thousand eyes,
Four arms divine, and robes of changing dyes. more on Indra's sovereignity Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Thee, darter of the swift blue bolt, he sang;
Sprinkler of genial dews and fruitful rains
O'er hills and thirsty plains!
When through the waves of war thy charger sprang,
Each rock rebell'd and each forest rang,
Till vanquish'd Asuras felt avenging pains.
Send o'er their seats the snake, that never dies,
But waft the virtuous to thy skies! read the entire article
http://www.weirdvideos.com/g6.html - 79k – Cached Message 23389 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Sunder Hattangadi"
--- In [email protected], "V. Krishnamurthy"
> > Thanks, Ken-ji, for a wonderful analysis of Indra in the Rg Veda. > You have given us all tons and tons of homework to do. It will take > quite a long time for us to catch up with you, if at all!
Namaste,
'One droplet of the Vedic ambrosia is enough to make one not only taste immortality but swim or drown in its oceanis expanse'.
Sri Vasishtha Ganapati Muni, the pre-eminent disciple of Ramana Maharshi and Vedic scholar (and Guru of Sri Kapali Shastry), wrote the following [from the Rig Veda]: Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Indra-sahasra-nama (1000 names of Indra in the Rig Veda, with no duplicate names!)
Indrani-Saptashati (700 verses on Indra's consort)
Indra-gitam (dvipada stotra, in Telugu).
[Ref.: Bhagavan and Nayana, by S. Shankaranarayanan, 2nd ed. 1997, Ramanashram.] No details are available about the original publications.
Thank you, Kenji, for leading us to the shores of that ocean.
Regards,
Sunder Message 23390 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Thank you kenji for placing he story of Indra and vrtra in a proper perspective.
Here is another explanation...
Within the Vedas is an important story relating to Indra and Vrtra. In later Hinduism Indra is little more than a Deity of the rains or storms. While Indra and his thunderbolt can be associated with storms, in Vedic times Indra was considered the God of gods. While this may have little relevance to the western reader, Indra can be brought into light for the western mind. Indra is our true essence or being. Some might use the term soul, or the power of the soul.
Vrtra is often referred to as the adversary of Indra. Vrtra is also referred to as the dragon or serpent, which holds back the waters. These waters are released when Indra slays Vrtra. Again this can have little relevance to the western reader, however Vrtra can be easily brought into light for the western mind. To understand Vrtra one must first look to the root that forms the word: Vr.
Vr literally means, "to cover". Vr is also a name for Indra. In the Vedic system, Vrtra is a shadow of Indra; and some consider him the brother of Indra. So does this literally mean that Indra has slain his brother? Is this an earlier version of the Cain and Able story recorded in the Bible? Most likely it is not. Vrtra is a reflection of Indra. This reflection covers and obscures our view of the true Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details reality of nature. Just as a mountain can be reflected in a lake, the lake cannot be the mountain but only a reflection of it, a reflection (within the lake) that is easily disturbed. So what is this reflection that appears so pure and perfect?
This reflection would be called Vrtra, and Vrtra is a reference to the ego. More correctly it is the concealing power of Vrtra. This power of Vrtra is referred to as "Avarana Shakti". Avarana Shakti can literally mean "the power to hinder in time and space." Vrtra is the root power of the ego, and has the power to hinder our spiritual growth in the field of time and space, but not the power to hinder our true power or essence (Indra). It would be correct to call it the root power of the ego. Vrtra later appears in Hindu philosophy as avidya (ignorance). It would also be correct to say that Vrtra is the power of maya in the world.
References to Indra slaying the serpent and releasing the waters is a teaching of spiritual realization. The cover of avidya (ignorance) being removed opening us to awareness of our true nature. This is the journey of humankind. Each individual consciously or unconsciously is traveling this path. This was clearly understood by the great rshi's of the Vedic period. Their great gift to future generations was recorded in the Vedas and has been preserved for over 8500 years. While some scholars could argue that Indras slaying of the serpent can also be a reference to awakening the kundalini energy. This should not be seen as a conflict with the underlining essence of Indra and Vrtra. It is more of an extension or other aspect of the universal truth presented with Indra and Vrtra. It would also be correct to say that Vrtra is the kundalini in a dormant (tamasic) state. Vrtra is the inertia that keeps the kundalini from rising up the sushumna.
(snip)
Of course in the Rg Veda 1.10.5 gives insight into how to increase our Indra or ego defeating energy. It says in the first line:
Uktham indraya shamsyam.
Offer praise to Indra [with] hymns [mantra].
There are numerous riks (hymns) to Indra; these are best learned from a qualified Vedic yoga teacher. to read the entire article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html - 19k - Cached
'Rig Veda,' II, 12, 1-5 13)
Indra - to thee ! we bow! Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1. The chief wise god who as soon as born surpassed the gods in power; Before whose vehemence the two worlds trembled by reason of the greatness of valour: he, O men, is, Indra
2. Who made firm the quaking earth, who set at rest the agitated mountains; Who measures out the air more widely, who supported the heaven: he, O men, is Indra.
3. Who having slain the serpent released the seven streams, who drove out the cows by the unclosing of Vala, Who between two rocks has produced fire, victor in battles: he, O men, is Indra.
4. By whom all things here have been made unstable, who has made subject the Dasa color4 and has made it disappear; Who, like a sinning gambler the stake, has taken the possessions of the foe: he, O men, is Indra.
5. The terrible one of whom they ask 'where is he,' of whom they also say 'he is not': He diminishes the possessions of the foe like the stakes of gamblers. Believe in him: he, O men, is Indra. . . .
13. Even heaven and Earth bow down before him; before his vehemence even the mountains are afraid. Who is known as the Soma-drinker, holding the bolt in his arm, who holds the bold in his hand: he, O men, is Indra.
Translated by A.A. Macdonell, in his A Vedic Reader for Students (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1917), pp45-54 Message 23391 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- "V. Krishnamurthy"
Namaste Professor-ji, You too have given me much work for the future by directing me to the above. That is a bonus to this study. I have previously mentioned Dr Gopinath Kaviraj and his importance to me. It is by many strange events that I find myself now working in the same area as he did: the possible relationship between Adi-Shankara's advaita and that in Kashmiri Saivism. As you know, Saundaryalahari is at the centre of such a study and there are many biased reasons for those who wish to deny its authorship to Shankara. It will be a study later in the summer after I have returned to Upadesa Sahasri, an incomplete study that had to be abandoned last year. In relation to the content on the above ref. may I relate a bit of ken-history: Dr Kaviraj sent me to Sri Anandamayee and after meeting her I returned to the Government rest house. I stretched out on the floor and rested. Gradually I found myself listening to what I had come to call 'Inner music'. This had occured before in the UK . (My recent research has shown that this is a fairly common event but I do not want to discuss that further here) It is not the memory playing a recalled tune but it is as if I am in an audience in an inner world of hidden musicians, not just listening but being expanded by the music. In Banaras it was especially noticeable as previously the music had been western but on that occasion it was classical Indian. It continued for some time but there was an instrument that I could not recognise by its sound. A few weeks later I was up in Mussourie when I heard a Vina for the first time and knew that to be the mystery instrument. Now, in the room beside me is my vina and on top of the computer is a small statue of Sarasvati with her vina.
Life is very strange at times but thank heavens and the resident powers that we do not know what is going on or we would interfere.
Sorry for the personal digression,
Ken Knight Message 23393 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Sunder Hattangadi
Namaste Sunder-ji, Now you have destroyed my delusion. Here I am struggling to be academic and you put up a single verse that has the tears flowing.
I think Indra has been firing his lightning bolts at those black clouds again and released the rains.
Both you and Adi-ji sent me pictures of Goddess Meenakshi with the green parrot representing the Vedas. I told also of the strange appearance of green parrots in our garden recently.
If Benjamin comes by this way...... Benjamin has been posting British news stories lately...... look out for the national news story today that Southern England is being invaded by green parrots. Thousand are joining flocks and pushing out our crows etc.
What can be the meaning of such strange omens????
Ken Knight Message 23416 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, This is not the posting that me, ken, really wanted to do. I was really looking forward to the one on the Rbhus. For the last week, every time I tried to work on what to write distractions came in, books went missing. Then, finally at the weekend, with several hours free, www.flaez.ch was impoosible to load ( can someone please check it from your end ). So I cut out all I wanted to write about chariots and mind-yoked hymns and the following is what appeared. I trust it is of use.
Ken Knight Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
In RV X.177 we discovered that it is through the pure discrimination of heart and mind that we are able to discern unity in the apparent diversity, the mAyA of the asura. Then, in a variety of hymns, we saw how Indra has the power of mAyA to take up many forms to overcome that which covers the truth. He is the power of meditation and also the 'thought-bestirrer'., codayanmati, RV VIII. 46.19. The brahman ( sung prayer) makes him expand:
'Thou becomest great by virtue of the sacred word' X.50.4 also I.80.1 vii.19.11 III.34.1
X.119.5 aháM táSTeva vandhúram páry acaami hRdaá matím |
'As a wright bends a chariot-seat so round my heart I bend (shape beautifully)the hymn'
(It is at that point I want to go on about chariots but I reckon the gods will seize up my hard-disk.)
So:
We will remember from earlier postings the hymn, RV I.12.6 which states: 'By Agni Agni is inflamed.' Imagine lighting a fire. The fire is already in the wood waiting to be released. By bringing the flame to the wood the fire is released. That is the meaning. The Self 'in' us awaits the Supreme Self.
Again,we have seen in earlier postings that Agni has three main forms which he assumes: the Sun, lightning and the fire of the hearth .
RV.III.20.2 ágne trií te vaájinaa trií Sadhásthaa tisrás te jihvaá Rtajaata puurviíH | tisrá u te tanvò devávaataas taábhir naH paahi gíro áprayuchan ||
'Three are thy powers, O Agni, three thy stations, three are thy tongues, yea, many, Child of Order! Three bodies hast thou which the Gods delight in: with these protect our hymns with care unceasing.'
And it is through the magical powers, mAyA mAyinAM, that this magic is achieved.:
ágne bhuúriiNi táva jaatavedo déva svadhaavo .amR'tasya naáma | yaásh ca maayaá maayínaaM vishvaminva tvé puurviíH Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details saMdadhúH pRSTabandho ||
'O Agni, many are the names thou bearest, immortal, God, Divine, and Jatavedas. And many charms of charmers, All-Inspirer! have they laid in thee, Lord of true attendants!'
This idea is extended in the Atharva Veda XII.1.19-20: 'There lies the fire in the earth and in plants; and waters carry it, The fire is in stone, and there is fire deep within men, a fire in the kine, and a fire in the horses; The same fire that burns in the heavens, the mid-air belongs to this fire divine. Men kindle this fire that bears the oblation and loves the melted butter.'
This process of immanence and transcendence through division is easy to understand but not so easy to observe as we become lost in the appearance of products of the division.
Not surprisingly, from the hymns seen so far, there is a link between Rta and mAyA. It is through the mAyA that the world order is continually expressed through apparent differentiation and this lawful process is seen as magical in human sight. maayaá vaam mitraavaruNaa diví shritaá suúryo jyótish carati citrám aáyudham | tám abhréNa vRSTyaá guuhatho diví párjanya drapsaá mádhumanta iirate ||
'Your magic, Mitra-Varuna, resteth in the heaven. The Sun, the wondrous weapon, cometh forth as light. Ye hide him in the sky with cloud and flood of rain, and water-drops, Parjanya! full of sweetness flow.'
This magical, creative and artistic understanding of mAyA is taken up in Puranic tales of the architect of the gods, Maya, who served the asuras and was a master of mAyA skills and built the three celestial cities for the protection of the asuras. People may like to pick up on a tale of this craftsmanship in MBh III.23.12.
The ASvins are known as mAyAvin because they have understood this universal force and fill their chariot, rathaM, with magical power, purumAyaM. Griffith just calls this 'wondrous car.', I prefer rathaM purumAyaM, sounds much better.
RV.I.119.1 Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
A vAM rathaM purumAyaM manojuvaM jIrAshvaM yajñiyaM jIvase huve | sahasraketuM vaninaM shatadvasuM shruSTIvAnaM varivodhAmabhi prayaH ||
'Hither, that I may live, I call unto the feast your wondrous car, thought-swift, borne on by rapid steeds. With thousand banners, hundred treasures, pouring gifts, promptly obedient, bestowing ample room.'
And it is that skilful, artistry of mAyA displayed by the ASvins that is repeated in the story of the Rbhus.
For this story go to: http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/rigVeda/gov/rbhus.asp#1 You will find there an interpretation of the story that requires discussion but I feel that I should limit this posting initially otherwise we will soon be distracted from the use of mAyA in this context.
We need to note that it was through their (Rbhus) skilful use of mAyA that they earned their place among the gods. This power is then sub-divided into the powers of speech, sháciibhiH, power of vision, dhiyA and mental ability, manasA:
RV.III.60.1,2 ihéha vo mánasaa bandhútaa nara ushíjo jagmur abhí taáni védasaa | yaábhir maayaábhiH prátijuutivarpasaH saúdhanvanaa yajñíyam bhaagám aanashá ||
'Here is your ghostly kinship, here, O Men: they came desirous to these holy rites with store of wealth, With wondrous arts, whereby, with schemes to meet each need, Ye gained, Sudhanvan's Sons! your share in sacrifice.'
yaábhiH sháciibhish camasaáM+ ápiMshata yáyaa dhiyaá gaám áriNiita cármaNaH | yéna hárii mánasaa nirátakSata téna devatvám RbhavaH sám aanasha ||
' The mighty powers wherewith. ye formed the chalices, the thought by which ye drew the cow from out the hide, The intellect wherewith ye wrought the two Bay Steeds,-through these, O Rbhus, ye attained divinity. '
Because of my interests, the vast majority of the Rgvedic hymns are about speech and the four levels of speech of which most people only understand one Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details quarter: RV. I. 164.1 'Speech hath been measured out in four divisions, the Brahmans who have understanding know them. Three kept in close concealment cause no motion; of speech, men speak only the fourth division.'
As our common language is enclosed in that fourth division we cloud the meaning of the mantras. We are misusing the power of mAyA but that is not the fault of mAyA. We cannot blame the rope for our fear of snakes. If we catch a glimpse of the other, inherent levels of meaning as discussed in the postings on YAska, then with the artistry of speech unveiled by the Rbhus,sháciibhiH, we are able to reverse the 'outward' thrust of division and return on an 'inward' approach to the unity that is all-pervading. This would lead us naturally to a discussion on the use of the mahAvAkyas and 'neti, neti' but a look at the archives will show that we have done this very thoroughly in the past.
It is at this point that we may be able to introduce once more the book of P.D Shastri. He notes that whenever the word mAyA is used in the Rgveda there is the idea of mystery, what he calls: 'a mysterious power of will.'....saMkalpa Sakti or iccha Sakti.
So, following his approach, we may take this to be in accord with 'That One' willing to become 'many' as the tradition comes to us. Similarly, the gods 'will' to become enclosed in different forms so that there power may manifest. This is in accord with Rta and accomplished through the power of mAyA.
It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning of mAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as being only a power of deception is to miss its lawful place in the order of things, as the veil which reveals that underlying 'will', iccha. Message 23418 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "V. Krishnamurthy"
--- In [email protected], ken knight
>> > It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning of > mAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as being > only a power of deception is to miss its lawful place > in the order of things, as the veil which reveals that > underlying 'will', iccha. >
Namaste, Ken-ji
Wonderfully said! "The veil which reveals that underlying 'will', icchA". And that is the meaning of "mama mAyA" in B.G. VII - 14!
Thank you, Ken.
PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda. profvk Message 23430 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, A bit more for the filing cabinet.
Ken Knight
Serpents: nice,nasty or neutral?
The later development and translations of the word mAyA as delusion and deceit is not dominant in the Rgveda. I would suggest that this imposition comes from Sayana's commentary where he uses the word 'kapaTa', deception, as a meaning of mAyA. How we understand the 'covering' or 'veiling' aspect of mAyA depends upon whether we like 'snakes' or not. When we are deluded by the superimposition, adhyAsa, of the snake on the rope, do we run towards it and stroke it because we like snakes or do we run away? Neither action is appropriate as there is no snake. We may see the world as an awful place from which we wish to escape as soon as possible or we may love it so much that we wish to be born again and again.
No one could accuse the Maruts of being demons and yet we find them being described as ahimAyAH., serpents' powers, because they 'robe themselves in the height of heaven' as clouds which may cover the sun but also produce wealth-giving rain: RV.X.63.4 Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
nRcákSaso ánimiSanto arháNaa bRhád devaáso amRtatvám aanashuH jyotiírathaa áhimaayaa ánaagaso divó varSmaáNaM vasate svastáye
'Looking on men, ne'er slumbering, they (Maruts) by their deserts attained as gods to lofty immortality. Borne on refulgent cars, sinless (anAgaso), with serpents' powers (ahimAyA), they robe them, for our welfare, in the height of heaven.'
The word ahimAyAH , with the prefix 'ahi' meaning serpent, very much demonstrates the essential thesis of mAyA being the appearance of many different forms or colours and patterns, like a snake, but some may want it to be interpreted in the negative sense of the alleged guile of the snake. However, it may also refer to the wisdom and skillful artistry of the snake. There is room for the exegete to use whichever meaning suits best the exegete's intention. We must always be careful not to attribute evil or good to a neutral power but only to its usage, as has been mentioned several times already.
The intention of the poet is made clear in this particular hymn by the addition of the word anAgaso, sinless, so there can be no negative meaning in this context.
That mAyA is a necessary function in the universe perceived by the seers is explained by the second of the following stanzas which gives it the role of guardian: RV. V.63.6-7
vaácaM sú mitraavaruNaav íraavatiim parjányash citraáM vadati tvíSiimatiim | abhraá vasata marútaH sú maayáyaa dyaáM varSayatam aruNaám arepásam ||
'Refreshing is your voice, O Mitra-Varuna: Parjanya sendeth out a wondrous mighty voice. With magic power the Maruts clothe them with the clouds. Ye Two cause Heaven to rain, the red, the spotless One.'
dhármaNaa mitraavaruNaa vipashcitaa vrataá rakSethe ásurasya maayáyaa | Rténa víshvam bhúvanaM ví raajathaH suúryam aá dhattho diví cítryaM rátham ||
'Wise, with your Law and through the Asura's magic power (mAyA) ye guard the ordinances, Mitra-Varuna. Ye by eternal Order govern all the world. Ye set the Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Sun in heaven as a refulgent car.'
The link here with Rta, the eternal law holding the universe in order, places mAyA at the first steps in the emanation of Tad Ekam. (Notice also that in this stanza we have both dharma and Rta being used. Any comment on this?) This link is further illustrated by an earlier verse in the same hymn, RV. V.63.4: maayaá vaam mitraavaruNaa diví shritaá suúryo jyótish carati citrám aáyudham | tám abhréNa vRSTyaá guuhatho diví párjanya drapsaá mádhumanta iirate ||
'Your magic, Mitra-Varuna, resteth (is fixed) in the heaven (the Father), The Sun, the wondrous weapon, cometh forth as light. Ye hide him in the sky with cloud and flood of rain, and water-drops, Parjanya! full of sweetness flow. '
The words diví shritA have the meaning of being fixed ('resteth' in the Griffith translation) in the Father with the latter being but a name for the primal authority.
Verse 6 above begins vaácaM sú mitraavaruNaav íraavatiim, 'refreshing is your voice', a simple example of sound being central to the poet's vision. However, there may be more subtle intentions here in relating the 'voice' with the 'flow of sweetness' in verse 4. The subtle feeling of love may be far sweeter than the words we use to express it until we can learn to craft our speech artistically. This connection between fine, well crafted or revealed speech and the quality of refreshing 'sweetness' is made in many of the world's ancient societies. Psalm 119 of the Old Testament is, I would suggest, a Vedic hymn in style from beginning to end and encapsulates much that we have discussed. This is something that the Rbhus understood. Through their own beautiful singing they crafted the chariot. As do those who hear the sweetness and beauty of the Word and sing it for the benefit of all. RV. IX.10 6-9 ápa dvaáraa matiinaám pratnaá RNvanti kaarávaH | vR'SNo hárasa aayávaH || samiiciinaása aasate hótaaraH saptájaamayaH | padám ékasya píprataH || naábhaa naábhiM na aá dade cákSush cit suúrye sácaa | kavér ápatyam aá duhe || abhí priyaá divás padám adhvaryúbhir gúhaa hitám | suúraH pashyati cákSasaa || Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
'The singing-men (kAravaH) of ancient time open the doors of sacred songs,- Men, for the mighty to accept. Combined in close society sit the seven priests, the brother-hood, Filling the station of the One. He gives us kinship with the Gods, and with the Sun unites our eye: The Sage's offspring hath appeared. The Sun with his dear eye beholds that quarter of the heavens which priests Have placed within the sacred cell.'
What Griffiths translates as 'the sacred cell' is 'guhA', that is the hidden place, the secret place; the depths of the heart maybe. Message 23431 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Our most beloved kenji observes
It is easy to see then how we can imply a meaning of mAyA being a deceptive power, but to see it as being only a power of deception is to miss its lawful place in the order of things, as the veil which reveals that underlying 'will', iccha. our most respected Professorji responds ...
Wonderfully said! "The veil which reveals that underlying 'will', icchA". And that is the meaning of "mama mAyA" in B.G. VII - 14!
Iccha ! Iccha shakti!! wow! for days on end our professorji has been delighting us all with verses from Adi shankara's Saundarya Lahari !
The central figure of this wonderful tantric text is none other than Sree LALITA Tripura Sundari, the divine Goddess !
In her four hands , Sree Lalita Devi holds sugarcane-bow, flower- arrows, Pasha(noose) and Ankusha(goad).
Noose (Pasa) represent Iccha-Shakti, which is the bondage causing the distinction between the individual self and the Supreme Spirit Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
(Svatma-rupa-bheda-bandhana).
The sugarcane bow and the five flowry arrows(iksucapa-prasuna-sara- pancaka) represent Kriya-Shakti which is the cause of attachment (Avarjana) to things outside one's self (Svabhinna). The sense of this is that it is the Shaktis- Iccha, Jnana, and Kriya which in obedience to Her behest assume the forms of Pasa and the like and remain in Her service (Tadupasanam acaranti).
" The resplendent on holding in her hand the noose (Pasa) which is Will (Iccha-Shakti), the Goad (Ankusa) which is knowledge (Jnana- Shakti) and the arrows and the bow which is Action (Kriya-Shakti). " is this not a wonderful explanation for Devi as MAHA-MAYA? http://www.aadhyashakti.com
Salutations to devi!! Message 23447 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, I will post something tomorrow to conclude properly but this must be the last main posting as July is nearly here. There can, of course, be no conclusion to something so embedded in the Vedas. So the following is merely a signpost for further enquiry.
Ken Knight
We began with RV.X.177 which is dedicated to mAyAbheda and have taken from that the possibility that in the Rgvedic Samhita context, mAyA is to do with the power of division. This is a neutral power unaffected by the intentions of the gods, demons and men that are superimposed upon that power. Each of them hear the 'dadada' of thunder differently in accordance with their function in whole, harmonious system of things.
As long as we 'see' difference without understanding the essential, neutral power behind it, then we will be caught up with the action, ahamkAra, and qualify the action as good or bad, nice or nasty. Our personal decision to label events and things with 'I like' and 'I don't like'....our main activity it would seem...... is our delusion and nothing to do with Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details mAyA.
The demons can appear to halt the processes of nature and change their appearance at will by using that same power of the gods to perform their deceptions …mAyA and mAyinaH. And in return the gods use that same power to overcome the demons. RV. I.51. 4-5 tvám apaám apidhaánaavRNor ápaádhaarayaH párvate daánumad vásu | vRtráM yád indra shávasaávadhiir áhim aád ít suúryaM divy aárohayo dRshé ||
'Thou hast unclosed the prisons of the waters; thou hast in the mountain seized the treasure rich in gifts. When thou hadst slain with might the dragon Vrtra, thou, Indra, didst raise the Sun in heaven for all to see.' tvám maayaábhir ápa maayíno .adhamaH svadhaábhir yé ádhi shúptaav ájuhvata tvám pípror nRmaNaH praárujaH púraH prá RjíshvaanaM dasyuhátyeSv aavitha
'With wondrous might thou blewest enchanter fiends away, with powers celestial those who called on thee in jest. Thou, hero-hearted, hast broken down Pipru's forts, and helped Rjisvan when the Dasyus were struck dead.'
RV I.11.7 maayaábhir indra maayínaM tváM shúSNam ávaatiraH | vidúS Te tásya médhiraas téSaaM shrávaaMsy út tira ||
'The wily Susna, Indra! thou o'er-threwest with thy wondrous powers. The wise beheld this deed of thine: now go beyond their eulogies.'
I.32.4 yád indraáhan prathamajaám áhiinaam aán maayínaam áminaaH prótá maayaáH | aát suúryaM janáyan dyaám uSaásaM taadiítnaa shátruM ná kílaa vivitse ||
'When, Indra, thou hadst slain the dragon's firstborn, and overcome the charms of the enchanters, Then, giving life to Sun and Dawn and Heaven, thou foundest not one foe to stand against thee.'
V.30.6 túbhyéd eté marútaH sushévaa árcanty arkáM sunvánty Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
ándhaH | áhim ohaanám apá aasháyaanam prá maayaábhir maayínaM sakSad índraH ||
'These blissful Maruts sing their psalm to praise thee, and pour to thee libation of the Soma. Indra with wondrous powers subdued the Dragon, the guileful lurker who beset the waters.'
It is by concentrating upon the negative superimposition, the deceptive games of the demons on mAyA, that later writers, and western translators, come up with 'illusion' as the meaning of mAyA. But this is not the emphasis in the Rgveda. As a neutral power, bringing about division but transcending division itself, nothing can be spoken or written about it. It could be described as anirvacaniya….now where have I heard that word before?....to use later language. It does not matter how great the power of the mAyinaH appears to be, nor how great the cleverness and insight of the wise, dhIrah; none can overcome the supreme will of Tad Ekam which manifests through Rta.
RV X .73.5 mándamaana Rtaád ádhi prajaáyai sákhibhir índra iSirébhir ártham | aábhir hí maayaá úpa dásyum aágaan míhaH prá tamraá avapat támaaMsi ||
'Glad, for the race that rests on holy Order, with friends who hasten to their goal, hath Indra With these his magic powers assailed the Dasyu: he cast away the gloomy mists, the darkness.'
RV III.56.1 ná taá minanti maayíno ná dhiíraa vrataá devaánaam prathamaá dhruvaáNi | ná ródasii adrúhaa vedyaábhir ná párvataa nináme tasthivaáMsaH ||
'Not men of magic skill, not men of wisdom impair the Gods' first steadfast ordinances. Ne'er may the earth and heaven which know not malice, nor the fixed hills, be bowed by sage devices.'
It would seem to be that the misuse of that power, mAyA, can appear to bring about a de-stabilisation of the universal harmony of Rta while the use of that same power re-establishes that harmony. But in Reality, nothing can alter that which is established by Rta for it transcends any such alteration. It is an appearance only and that appearance is the power of Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details mAyA, the neutral power of division, which is fulfilling the impulse of the Supreme Power, the will towards diversity while the transcendent unity is neither added to nor diminished. AS we heard in an earlier posting:
RV.II.35 1-3 úpem asRkSi vaajayúr vacasyaáM cáno dadhiita naadyó gíro me | apaáM nápaad aashuhémaa kuvít sá supéshasas karati jóSiSad dhí ||
'Eager for spoil my flow of speech I utter: may the Floods' Child accept my songs with favour. Will not the rapid Son of Waters make them lovely, for he it is who shall enjoy them?' imáM sv àsmai hRdá aá sútaSTam mántraM vocema kuvíd asya védat | apaáM nápaad asuryàsya mahnaá víshvaany aryó bhúvanaa jajaana ||
'To him let us address the song well-fashioned, forth from the heart. Shall he not understand it' The friendly Son of Waters by the greatness of Godhead hath produced all things existing.' sám anyaá yánty úpa yanty anyaáH samaanám uurváM nadyàH pRNanti | tám uu shúciM shúcayo diidivaáMsam apaáM nápaatam pári tasthur aápaH ||
'Some floods unite themselves and others join them: the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse. On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.' Message 23449 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "adi_shakthi16"
Our most beloved Ken Knightji !
For a little over four weeks now, you held this audience 'spellbound ' with your brilliant exposition of MaYa in the vedas.
You managed to convert Curious onlookers into 'serious' students of Veda in a brief period of time - and you did all this effortlessly in a 'subtle' but sure manner ... Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
1) first, by tracing the etymology of the words !explaining the 'root' of the words and their derivatives and compounds. and also explaining how shift in meanings can occur for the same word by the clever use of Sandhis! i am still waiting for someone to answer your query on MAYABHEDA ! IS IT MAYA +BHEDA OR MAYA + ABHEDA? (Sunderji, can you solve this riddle?)
2) Secondly, i loved the way you quoted the various hymns by giving appropriate references for example how the word 'MAYA' occurs in the various brahmanas of the rg veda and in what context the word is used ! Like a skilled magician you unveiled the decpetive power of Maya in VEda.
3) For the longest time, i have heard Vedas being recited and chanted and the vedic rituals performed ! this is the first time, i have read all the vedic deities like 'agni', 'indra'. 'ashwins' , 'rbhus' etc explained in such great detail and in such an interesting way. And one member Sridhar pointed out rather honestly, Indra was always considered a 'pompous' god full of false ego ! But, by narrating the story of Indra and Vrtra , you brought out the transcedental meaning of this ancient God, Indra!
4) I must confess that at times your presentation was a bit too scholarly with generous quotations of sanskrit hymns but the important point is you did explain the meanings in a detailed manner so that even a layman can understand and appreciate the beauty of these classic hymns.
5) Your citing of authors and the bibiliographic references was also very much appreciated! on my own, i would have never read Griffith, Sayana, Raimond Pannikar, Wilson , Sastry, Kashyap etc.... as you have rightly said, There is no conclusion to the study of vedas- this is an eternal study - a continuous exploration and on going journey regarding the Cosmic Order (Rtm) and fascinating !
6) who said vedas are 'dry' and boring? it all depends on how it is presented. By narrating stories and introducing 'humor' , even vedic hymns can taste like the celestial drink 'soma' !
6) Krishna says in the Bhagvat Gita - of all the vedas, i am the sama veda meaning thereby that it is the best. But by your spectacular presentation of rig veda , one can say rig veda is in no way inferior!
7)And you mentioned about hindus being born in the tradition and hinted that they are fortunate ! this is partially true.
But i habve read with my own eyes how the 'purusha sukta' hymn has been translated by the hindus in seceral different ways to either 'favor' or 'criticize' the caste system! But the purusha sukta and the sri sukta hymns are full of beauty and lyricism and Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details their esoteric meanings are lost in clumsy translations!
8) But the beauty of any presentation is it should create a appetite for more of the same ! are we hungry for more of Maya in the vedas? the answer is a YES!!! Kenji, you can pick up the thread from where you left of after your return from the trip to the mountains!
9) and finally, it was nice to see you acknowledging the responses of all the members ( including me) with grace and humility. also, taking the time to answer any questions that arose in the course of this presentation!
10) all in all, a very enriching experience! finally, you had mentioned about the hearing of a 'sound' in your inner ear during your Indian sojourn and identified it as the sound of 'veena' the cestial instrument held by Saraswati Sevi, the Goddess of Learning!
Some of these names of Sree Saraswati devi!
1) Jihvagravasini- one who resides on the TONGUE.
2) Kavijihvagravasini- one who resides on the tongue of poets.
3) Vani - great speaker
4) Smritasaki- one who has great memory
5) Pratibha - one who possesses great intelligence in closing , here are hymns from rig veda honoring Saraswati
A Hymn To Saraswati, Rig Veda 1:3, Verses 10-12 May Sarasvati, the purifier rich in wealth - the intellect Her treasure - desire our sacrifice. Inspirer of the truthful, rouser of the noble minded, may Sarasvati accept our worship. Sarasvati, mighty ocean, she rouses up with her light And brightens all intellects.
Saraswati RV 7:95 THIS stream Sarasvati with fostering current comes forth, our sure defence, our fort of iron. As on a car, the flood flows on, surpassing in majesty and might all other waters. Pure in her course from mountains to the ocean, alone of streams Sarasvati hath listened. Thinking of wealth and the great world of creatures, she poured for Nahusa her milk and fatness. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Friendly to man he grew among the women, a strong young Steer amid the Holy Ladies. He gives the fleet steed to our wealthy princes, and decks their bodies for success in battle. May this Sarasvati be pleased and listen at this our sacrifice, auspicious Lady, When we with reverence, on our knees, implore her close-knit to wealth, most kind to those she loveth. These offerings have ye made with adoration: say this, Sarasvati, and accept our praises; And, placing us under thy dear protection, may we approach thee, as a tree, for shelter. For thee, O Blest Sarasvati, Vasistha hath here unbarred the doors d sacred Order. Wax, Bright One, and give strength to him who lauds thee. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.
********************************************************************** In eternal gratitude ! Message 23452 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
--- Ranjeet Sankar
Namaste Ranjit,
> After your trip to the mountains, could you please > take us on a similar > enchanting trip through Shri sha~Nkara's > 'upadeshasahaShri'?
I am sure that there are many on this site who are better qualified than I to do this. When I previously began such postings...I think they are in the files section somewhere..I was posting three different translations of the shlokas for people to use in their own study. Translations always have different emphases and comparison can be useful. I was working through the prose section without any comment of my own.
My own personal study later this summer will be of Up.Sa. 18.202. This relates to our June topic as I was then frequently pointing towards the importance of the triad of the revealed word, Sruti, direct experience,anubhava and reasoning, yukti.
Shankara is here writing about the use of such sruti as 'Tat tvam asi'. The objection to him states, in Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
17.201,:'No concrete experience, like concrete satisfaction that follows from eating, can arise from the mere hearing of the sentence. And to analyse a sentence ( in the hope of getting a concrete experience from it ) is like trying to make milk pudding from cow dung.'
Shankara replies: 'It is true that all sentences conveying information about the not-self yield abstract knowledge only. But it is not so with sentences about the inmost Self, for there are exceptions, as in the case of the one who realised he was the tenth.' This being a reference to the story of the tenth man not counting himself. Anybody who felt the heart open, at any single point in the recent Rgvedic study, will understand that.
So from this point we could consider IshTa siddhi: 'Even verbal knowledge can be direct knowledge, because it can concern that which is immediately and directly known, as in the case of a human sentence proclaiming the self-luminosity of the Self.' There is a commentary on this by SatchidAnandendra, The Method of Vedanta p.725.
You have got me going already.
So I had better stop but leave you with Up.Sa. 17. 79-81, that sums up much of what I was trying to present in the June topic: 'Though not doing anything, the Self does everything. Though standing still, it outpaces those who run. As it appears through its incomprehensible power of mAyA to be omnipotent, it is thought to be manifold although in truth it is (homogenous), undergoes no birth ( and assumes no form). Being merely the Witness, I am the Self, non-dual, actionless, beyond the factors of action, causing the whole world to revolve by my mere proximity, like a magnet or like a king, being Myself the only Witness. One should dwell on the thought 'I am Absolute (Brahman), without attributes, actionless, constant, free from the pairs of opposites, free from all blemish, pure, enlightened, liberated.' Translation Alston.
Aren't we lucky to have such teaching????
Ken Knight Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Message 23454 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Peter M"
Dear Ken,
As a relative newcomer to the list, can I thank you for what you have written and the wisdom / insights you have shared. You have certainly awakened a sense of 'wonder' and enthusiasm in me, particularly to discover more about the Rig Veda. Your enthusiasm is contagious.
Many thanks and best wishes,
Peter
-----Original Message----- From: ken knight [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 29 June 2004 22:10 To: [email protected] Subject: [advaitin] June topic: mAyA in the vedas: serpents: last one
Namaste all, I will post something tomorrow to conclude properly but this must be the last main posting as July is nearly here. There can, of course, be no conclusion to something so embedded in the Vedas. So the following is merely a signpost for further enquiry.
Ken Knight Message 23456 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "advaitins"
Namaste,
The moderators join all the members who have articulated the sentiments of appreciation for Ken-ji's postings. Hopefully, some day we shall be able to listen to the sounds of the hymns over the cyberspace.
Ken-ji has his own web-site too, which members should visit: http://www.nonameorform.co.uk/links.html
Wishing Ken-ji a well-deserved rest, and a safe return, refreshed to keep us in the warm glow of the Vedic hymns. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
List Moderators Message 23461 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Lady Joyce"
Namaste Kenji and All:
Although you are by no means finished and most of us are just beginning, on the exploration of the first of the One of the Many, this does seem a good time to stop and say thank you, thank you, thank you:-) It is quite clear that you have spent many hours lovingly laboring over your posts and your understanding which you have so generously shared with us.
Adiji is correct in that you have held some of us spellbound with your exposition, but let us not forget the source of the spell, the One from whom all breathes forth! As you said in one of your first posts, it is the attitude with which one studies the Vedas that counts the most. May we all approach with respect, humility, and pure devotion.
Like you I will be going away next week, to the mountains in NE Pennsylvania where I grew up to visit my family and stay in a cabin near my brother by a lake where he now lives and where I swam many times as a child. While there I will also swim in the ocean RgVeda. As you proceeded all I did was watch from the shore or at best tread water. All right, at best, stick my toes in the surf :-) I have taken your posts and some of the wonderful responses and transferred them to a text format which I can print out and take with me.
I am not sure why but something about this thread has been sacred, perhaps because while it has been scholarly indeed it has also been permeated with the devotion of those who authored and contributed, to whom I also offer my gratitude and namaskarams. You said that you would provide both the simple for those of us without the scholarly backround and you did that beautifully, and that you would provide the sanskrit text and deeper understanding for those who could understand and you did that in a most excellent fashion, as attested to by those who knew enough to know that they did not understand!
A few days ago, I went for a walk in one of my favorite parks, known as Playwicki Farm in recognition of what is believed to have been a town built by the Native American Indian of the Delaware and/or Lenape tribe. Getting two birds on the same branch, one singing and one watching was not in the cards, but, what was in the tree was this single bird singing away at the top as the late afternoon melted into evening, the moon quietly waiting her turn to shine into the night... Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
RV.III.20.2 ágne trií te vaájinaa trií Sadhásthaa tisrás te jihvaá Rtajaata puurviíH | tisrá u te tanvò devávaataas taábhir naH paahi gíro áprayuchan ||
'Three are thy powers, O Agni, three thy stations, three are thy tongues, yea, many, Child of Order! Three bodies hast thou which the Gods delight in: with these protect our hymns with care unceasing.' http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/I.164/1.htm http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/I.164/2.htm http://www.omshaantih.com/Scriptures/Rig%20Veda/I.164/3.htm
With love and gratitude,
Joyce Message 23463 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "ymoharir"
Dear Adi-Ji:
Indeed this has been a very interesting puzzle for ages?
If maayaa was "TRUE - sat" then she would not have been bound through brahma and if she is "not true - asat" than one would not have been able to experience it either. That is why aacharya calls it "anrivacaniiya - not expressable in a words" sannaapsannaa.apyumayaatmikaa no bhinnaapyabhinnaapyubhayaatmikaa no | saa~Ngaapyana~Ngaa pyubhayaatmikaa no mahaadbhutaa.anirvacaniiyaruupaa || || vivekacuuDaamaNi 111 ||
I also like the finer distinction proposed by vidyaaharaNa in paNcadashii. cidaanandamayabrahmapratibimbasamanvitaa | tamorajaHsattvaguNaa prakR^itirdvividhaa ca saa || sattvashuddhavishuddhibhyaaM maayavidye ca te mate | maayaabimbo vashikR^itya taaM syaatsarvaj~na iishvaraH || Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
Liberal meaning – pakR^iti is the one who with the brahmaa's desire (pratiicchhaa) after having been balanced with triguNa gets expressed. sattvaguNa expressed as "pure – shuddha" is known as maayaa and "impure – malina" expression of prakR^iti is aviddyaa. Thus the sarvaj~na ishvara keeps maayaa in the reflection.
Please feel free to correct my limited understanding of maaya as being bound through reflection of that trikaalaatiita satya.
May be this will help us understand the maayaa in general.
Finally, I must thank Kan-ji for taking on the task to explore the vast subject matter of maayaa.
Regards,
Dr. Yadu Message 23469 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, Thank you all for your postings. Yesterday's free time disappeared when the plumber came. He likes to talk while he works. He has a mega-stammer. He is a friend. That combination was enough defeat the intention to answer each of you individually.
Why does Lord Krishna say 'Of the Vedas I am the Samaveda'? Others may like to comment. My own view is that although the Samaveda uses many of the Rks of the RgVeda, it is in the chanting that the essence, or essential meaning, can be heard. Must be more to it than that though so I would welcome other members' insights.
Thank you for picking up the mAyA-bheda or mAyA-abheda problem. In the context of RV X.177 they would both work. This highlights the problem of context and intention of both speaker and listener. Words can change their contextual meaning from generation to generation and we can see this in our own times as explained with the word 'gay'. We need to consider the question as to whether words have an essential meaning, which transcends contextual change; the ropeness of the rope and the delusion of the snake. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
I had hoped to go on to the use of mAyA in the Atharva Veda....not surprisingly the Sama and Yajur use mAyA in the same way as the Rgveda....where the mysterious and magical element becomes more emphasized in the chaging social context. Then the word can be followed through the Brahmanas to Upanishads and commentaries where it finally becomes Shankara's anirvacaniya.
However, now is the time to pass the flame of sruti on to the July topic. Thank you all again for all your help and support, above all though, my gratitude goes to Sri Anandamayee and Dr Kavairaj, without whom no such study would have been possible by myself.
'The Veda is the lark's morning trill of humanity awakening to the consciousness of its greatness.' (RgVedic Aesthetics P.S.Shastri Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan Delhi 1988. p.9 when he is quoting Brunahofer.) 'When I sing all the sleep comes off my eyes.' ( Sinnah Kamara, a 10 years old, blind girl from Sierra Leone writing 'A Life in the Day', a Sunday Times newspaper feature, November 16th. 2003)
Enjoy the song
Ken Knight Message 23470 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: ken knight
Namaste all, Very many thanks to you all for your encouraging posts today and to those of you who have helped push me along throughout the month. Especial thanks to the moderators for initiating the study and for your direction. As I said at the beginning, 'This is the advaitin site Jim, but not as we know it.' May normal life return quickly.
Purely at the personal level, you can have no idea of the agonies I have been through after each posting, questioning whether anything of use had been written. The first section had been pre-written and was tweaked on the e-mail but once we had begun to use the texts then it was all written on screen from notes made during my daily study sessions. I was, as we say, flying by the seat of my pants. So far I have not Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details looked back at any posting so it will be interesting to see some time what appeared. No doubt there will be many cringe-making moments.
Above all, my main concern has been that the traditionally anchored and orthodox members of this site would be disturbed by my study of such sacred texts. If any have been unhappy then may I assure them that I would not have begun the topic without the request of the moderators, and, above that, the authority given to speak from the heart that came from people in India in the distant and recent past.
The Vedas and India are very similar in that if you visit them as a tourist with camera in hand, carrying baggage from your everyday life, they will welcome you, let you take your photos to show your friends and have souvenirs to keep and then you depart. But if you approach them with respect and a kind of innocence, open to any direction they present to you, you will find yourself embraced in something so fine, so subtle, that at first you will not know what is happening but only later will understanding emerge, precise and directly relevant.
Finally to the point some have made as to my academic approach and scholarship; comments that I am sure would make the real academics on this site smile patiently. I was never trying to produce some defined argument, just a general idea to toss into the fires of the Vedas to see what happened. Also there was no consistency of record. I could never finally decide whether to write Agni or agni as Sanskrit does not use capitals and when transliterating 'A' does not mean capital letter. It was all a mess.
As to scholarship may I relate events of four years ago for in them appear some real scholars. For some time I had known that my body was in serious trouble with bowel cancer but for family reasons at that time I did not want people to be hassled with a hospitalised husband and father. When the time was right I decided to return to Varanasi for the first time for more than 30 years to give thanks to the city for wonderful people I had met there in the past. I went to Sri Anandamayee's ashram and sat in the room where I had sat at her feet as a young man. In search of some trace of the late Dr Gopinath Kaviraj I went to the Banaras Hindu University where I met Dr Kamalesh Tripathi who had known him well. We met several times and one day he took me to meet some other professors. On that day I met Scholars. Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details
They shone with insight and understanding. The main advaitin professor was the clearest light. Quite correctly he would not discuss spiritual matters in any language but Sanskrit although he was fluent in English. My knowledge of Sanskrit is limited to the written page but meaning transcends words. When someone speaks of scriptures without understanding then the listener does not understand. In this case though the meaning behind his words was clear. What an honour it would be to be a pupil of such a scholar. I have never met his like in a Western University. He was a Scholar, a humble powerhouse whose heart and mind were burnished by real study and practice.
The body survived subsequent slashing and hacking by surgeons, much to their surprise, especially as I refused their kind offer of chemo and radio therapy. Battered the body may now be but for the next few days it will be at my mercy. As I said initially, my main delight is in sport and so as from tomorrow I will be whooping with delight as I swoop down mountain trails on my bike, picking my way along sheep tracks high above sea and valleys and sit with my wife and border collie in mountain streams, listening in the silence.
Thank you again for mails and encouragement.
Ken Knight Message 23471 of 23514 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # From: "Chittaranjan Naik"
Namaste Ken-ji,
It is with a sense of sadness as well as awe and admiration that I read your post. My pranams to you. I shall try to remember the meanings of Maya and its nuances that you have illumined in your expositions as I attempt to carry forward the flame to this month's discussions.
Warm regards, Chittaranjan
[Compiled as a token of gratitude to Ken Knight] Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details Easy PDF Copyright © 1998,2004 Visage Software This document was created with FREE version of Easy PDF.Please visit http://www.visagesoft.com for more details